Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 29

From: Nov 14, 1998

To: Nov 27, 1998

Page: 2 Of: 5



SHP -:- speaking of names -:- Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 02:54:31 (EST)
__Jim -:- speaking pure bullshit -:- Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 03:47:23 (EST)
____Passing through -:- speaking purer bullshit -:- Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 06:25:44 (EST)
______bb-remember the surgeon -:- who wasn't a doctor at all? -:- Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 23:49:30 (EST)
__Brian -:- speaking of names -:- Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 08:51:08 (EST)
____SHP -:- speaking of names -:- Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 10:19:46 (EST)
______SHP -:- speaking of names -:- Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 10:22:28 (EST)
______VP -:- reacting to SHP -:- Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 18:29:41 (EST)
________SHP -:- ogre sighting -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 00:56:11 (EST)
__________Mike -:- ogre sighting -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 11:27:46 (EST)
____________SHP -:- ogre sighting -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 14:12:37 (EST)
______________Mike -:- ogre sighting -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 14:39:38 (EST)
________________SHP -:- So Mike.... -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 17:01:13 (EST)
________________Jerry -:- ogre sighting -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 21:18:09 (EST)
__________________Mike -:- Ah, got your attention -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 10:21:12 (EST)
____________________Jerry -:- Yes, you did -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 13:32:39 (EST)
__________VP -:- ogre sighting -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 14:56:08 (EST)
____________SHP -:- kali yuga static control -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 17:08:51 (EST)
______________Gerry -:- control freak -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 18:44:56 (EST)
________________SHP -:- my dear fellow -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 00:42:41 (EST)
__________________Gerry -:- my dear fellow -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 13:20:21 (EST)
______________VP -:- kali yuga static control -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 17:21:02 (EST)
______Brian -:- speaking of names -:- Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 19:12:01 (EST)
________SHP -:- speaking of names -:- Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 23:38:49 (EST)
__________bill burke -:- eat the fruit-kill the tree? -:- Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 00:47:52 (EST)
____________SHP -:- eat the fruit-kill the tree? -:- Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 01:06:07 (EST)
__________JW -:- SHP - Disturbing Thoughts -:- Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 18:52:10 (EST)
____________SHP -:- SHP - Disturbing Thoughts -:- Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 21:54:27 (EST)
______________Jim -:- Batter up! -:- Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 22:23:59 (EST)
________________SHP -:- Batter up! -:- Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 23:37:46 (EST)
__________________Jim -:- Batter up! -:- Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 23:51:33 (EST)
____________________SHP -:- Batter up! -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 00:32:57 (EST)
______________________Jim -:- Strike! -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 09:05:52 (EST)
________________________SHP -:- Strike! -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 17:29:37 (EST)
__________________________Mike -:- A quick one, shp -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 18:40:23 (EST)
____________________________SHP -:- A quick one back at ya, mike -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 00:58:36 (EST)
______________________dv -:- Batter up! -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 00:45:43 (EST)
________________________SHP -:- Batter up! -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 01:04:22 (EST)
__________________JW -:- Batter up! -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 12:40:26 (EST)
______________JW -:- SHP - Even More Disturbing -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 12:29:59 (EST)
______________Jerry -:- Knowledge alien? -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 21:49:43 (EST)
________________SHP -:- Knowledge alien? -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 01:23:49 (EST)
__________________Jerry -:- Semantics? -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 07:35:33 (EST)
____________________SHP -:- Yes, Jerry there are semantics -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 09:27:16 (EST)
______________________Jerry -:- Now who's being sarcastic? -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 14:15:54 (EST)
________op -:- speaking of names -:- Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 03:21:59 (EST)
__________Jim -:- speaking of games -:- Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 21:58:07 (EST)
______srb -:- a little something from mark -:- Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 00:12:25 (EST)
________SHP -:- a little something from mark -:- Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 01:39:55 (EST)
______Jerry -:- Not for me -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 19:23:20 (EST)
________SHP -:- Happy Thanksgiving -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 01:28:01 (EST)
__________Jerry -:- Get serious -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 07:55:42 (EST)
__Sir David -:- speaking of names -:- Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 10:32:07 (EST)
____SHP -:- speaking of names -:- Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 11:06:35 (EST)
______Sir David -:- It's not against you -:- Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 12:40:01 (EST)
________SHP -:- It's not against you -:- Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 15:21:22 (EST)
__________Jim -:- Quit being evasive, SHP -:- Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 15:50:07 (EST)
____________SHP -:- I'll drink to that -:- Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 23:49:23 (EST)
______________Gerry -:- I'll drink to that -:- Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 14:01:17 (EST)
________________SHP -:- I'll drink to that -:- Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 16:42:18 (EST)
______________Jim -:- I'll drink to that -:- Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 22:12:21 (EST)
______PremieInternetMindPatrol -:- Your are in your mind -:- Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 15:36:01 (EST)
________SHP -:- Your are in your mind -:- Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 23:51:40 (EST)
________Mike -:- Your are in your mind -:- Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 17:53:34 (EST)
__Helen -:- speaking of names -:- Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 11:21:48 (EST)
____SHP -:- speaking of names -:- Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 11:37:38 (EST)
______Helen -:- speaking of names -:- Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 12:08:13 (EST)
________Helen -:- ANd furthermore -:- Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 12:28:29 (EST)
__gerry -:- speaking of names -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 11:21:11 (EST)

Little Yiddish Grandma -:- vat ees this guru? -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 16:22:34 (EST)
__Nigel -:- The Living Perfect Waster -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 20:02:14 (EST)
____Nigel -:- The Living Perfect Waster -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 20:09:16 (EST)
______Laura -:- The Living Perfect Waster -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 23:28:18 (EST)
______Scott T. -:- The Living Perfect Waster -:- Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 12:48:29 (EST)
____Little Yiddish Grandma -:- The Living Perfect Waster -:- Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 16:06:02 (EST)

SHP -:- Good Will -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 10:48:28 (EST)
__Jerry -:- Good Will -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 11:44:07 (EST)
__VP -:- Good Will -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 12:13:54 (EST)
__Helen -:- Good Will -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 12:30:45 (EST)
__Katie -:- Vouching for op -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 13:17:36 (EST)

Sir David -:- What a sham -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 08:37:18 (EST)
__SHP -:- What a sham -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 10:32:18 (EST)
____Mark -:- What a sham/a second opinion -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 11:44:11 (EST)
______Jim -:- Really, Mark? -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 12:17:03 (EST)
________Jim -:- I looked a litle further -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 12:28:47 (EST)
__________Mark -:- I looked a litle further -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 19:52:33 (EST)
____________Scott T. -:- ... and what did I see? -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 22:01:00 (EST)
______________I saw a sham-ster -:- looking at me -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 22:43:39 (EST)
________Jerry -:- This stuff -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 12:40:27 (EST)
______Sir David -:- What a sham/a second opinion -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 15:07:05 (EST)
________Scott T. -:- What a sham/a second opinion -:- Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 10:48:38 (EST)
__________Sir David -:- The informed masses -:- Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 20:27:08 (EST)
____________Scott T. -:- The informed masses -:- Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 14:24:53 (EST)
______Jim -:- What a sham/a second opinion -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 22:02:09 (EST)
____Jerry -:- What a story! -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 12:14:35 (EST)
______Sir David -:- What a story! -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 13:54:20 (EST)
____nigel -:- Mickey! - can you help! -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 21:00:56 (EST)
______sorry, I meant -:- to include this: -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 21:06:34 (EST)
________Mickey the Pharisee -:- to include this: -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 22:23:39 (EST)
__________nigel -:- fascinating stuff, -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 22:46:09 (EST)

Curious -:- Why? -:- Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 21:39:48 (EST)
__Jim -:- That's easy -:- Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 22:16:01 (EST)
____Curious -:- That's easy -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 12:37:16 (EST)
______Jerry -:- Magic pill -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 12:53:11 (EST)
________VP -:- Magic pill -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 13:01:57 (EST)
__________Selene -:- Magic pill -:- Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 17:10:53 (EST)
____________Curious -:- Magic pill -:- Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 17:56:05 (EST)
______________Jim -:- Magic mirror -:- Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 18:06:34 (EST)
______________Selene -:- threats? -:- Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 18:09:16 (EST)
________________Jim -:- threats? -:- Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 18:15:42 (EST)
__________________Selene -:- threats? -:- Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 18:20:29 (EST)
________________Curious -:- Absolutely no threats! -:- Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 19:41:03 (EST)
__________________Jim -:- Answer the question, please -:- Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 19:59:16 (EST)
____________________Curious -:- Answer the question, please -:- Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 17:50:19 (EST)
______________________Katie -:- to Curious - off topic -:- Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 18:06:27 (EST)
________________________Curious -:- off topic -:- Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 18:51:41 (EST)
__________________________Katie -:- off topic -:- Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 19:10:58 (EST)
__________________________Jerry -:- Now I'M curious -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 22:43:17 (EST)
______________________Jim -:- I forgot to say 'honestly' -:- Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 20:20:27 (EST)
______________Jerry -:- Cheap shot, Curious -:- Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 23:04:39 (EST)
________________Selene -:- Cheap shot, Curious -:- Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 11:49:14 (EST)
______Jim -:- That's a lie -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 13:33:05 (EST)
______JW -:- That's easy -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 13:42:15 (EST)
________Helen -:- GO, JW (nt) -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 16:03:43 (EST)
________Mira -:- That's easy -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 18:04:33 (EST)
__________Jim -:- That's stupid -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 18:28:37 (EST)
__________Bruce -:- To Mira and Curious -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 23:16:39 (EST)
____________Jim -:- Bruce's cowardice -:- Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 01:37:31 (EST)
______________Bruce -:- Jim's usual bullshit -:- Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 21:52:45 (EST)
________________Jim -:- Jim's usual bullshit -:- Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 22:33:32 (EST)
________________Jerry -:- Bruce's logic -:- Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 22:48:33 (EST)
____________VP -:- B&M's positive vibes -:- Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 18:53:38 (EST)
____________Katie -:- Spoiled Western Brats -:- Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 12:56:46 (EST)
______________Bruce -:- Spoiled Western Brats -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 06:27:10 (EST)
________________Mike -:- Letters -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 12:31:52 (EST)
__________________Katie -:- Letters -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 14:18:09 (EST)
____________________Mike -:- Letters -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 14:45:59 (EST)
____________________Jim -:- Reality check, Katie -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 18:50:41 (EST)
________________Katie -:- Spoiled Western Brats -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 14:07:27 (EST)
__________________VP -:- Spoiled as Hell and enjoying -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 14:49:29 (EST)
____________Mike -:- To Bruce -:- Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 18:06:53 (EST)
__________Laura -:- That's easy -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 23:55:25 (EST)
__________JW -:- That's easy -:- Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 12:08:07 (EST)
______Nigel -:- The Living Perfect Waster -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 19:13:13 (EST)
__Scott T. -:- How? -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 01:05:42 (EST)
____Helen -:- Why? Oy! -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 03:58:49 (EST)
____VP -:- Leroy Nieman-off topic -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 12:24:56 (EST)
____Selene -:- How? -:- Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 18:53:48 (EST)
__srb -:- Why? -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 07:26:00 (EST)
__Jerry -:- Scaredy Cat -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 11:28:23 (EST)
__Katie -:- Why? - My story -:- Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 20:43:59 (EST)

Scott T. -:- The Fugitive Distractor -:- Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 20:51:51 (EST)
__Helen -:- The Fugitive Distractor -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 04:10:32 (EST)
____Scott T. -:- The Fugitive Distractor -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 11:18:43 (EST)
______Helen -:- The Fugitive Distractor -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 11:46:44 (EST)
________Scott T. -:- The Fugitive Distractor -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 12:36:17 (EST)
__________Helen -:- Life preparation 101 -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 12:45:41 (EST)
____________Scott T. -:- Life preparation 101 -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 13:29:24 (EST)
______________Helen -:- Great points -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 15:39:34 (EST)
________________Scott T. -:- Great points -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 16:01:42 (EST)
__________________Helen -:- Great points -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 16:06:16 (EST)
____________________Robyn -:- Great points -:- Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 23:18:57 (EST)
______________________Scott T. -:- Great points -:- Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 16:02:43 (EST)
________________________Helen -:- Hi guys -:- Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 16:54:30 (EST)
________________________Robyn -:- Great points -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 08:43:05 (EST)


Date: Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 02:54:31 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: speaking of names
Message:
To those of you only live to malign:

Why don't you call your site ex-premie.OGRE, for that is what you are manifesting yourselves as.

The existence of someone you define as an imposter presupposes the existence of the genuine article. Or have you lost the dream altogether?

There is a very cool lady on the net named Carolyn Myss. She is a healer, and she talks about 'woundology', or the practice of perfecting the expression of one's wounds. OK, you are wounded, I got it. For healing to begin, as per Ms. Myss, the study of woundology needs to be replaced by the study of healing. No rush, just trying to provide some positive information for when the time comes.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 03:47:23 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: speaking pure bullshit
Message:
The existence of someone you define as an imposter presupposes the existence of the genuine article.

Nope.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 06:25:44 (EST)
From: Passing through
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: speaking purer bullshit
Message:
No, Jim, he's right.
For there to be an imposter, there must be something to impost.
PT
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 23:49:30 (EST)
From: bb-remember the surgeon
Email: None
To: Passing through
Subject: who wasn't a doctor at all?
Message:
What are you trying to say here?

You know perhaps of the guy who claimed to be a doctor,
worse yet, a surgeon, and he operated on people and
he had no schooling in the field.
No license, he had no business inflicting his style of 'help' on
those who were coming to him based on his claims.

Since his claims were clearly about his own status and
not actually the work.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 08:51:08 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: SHP
Subject: speaking of names
Message:
Why don't you call your site ex-premie.OGRE, for that is what you are manifesting yourselves as.

If you believe in monsters, ogres, and fairies, then you'll find them everywhere they aren't. Sort of like 'woundology'. Fun games to pass time playing.

The existence of someone you define as an imposter presupposes the existence of the genuine article.

It doesn't take something's having an existence in order to piggyback beliefs onto those already held by others. Maharaji's devotees believe he is who he carefully doesn't actually say he is anymore. Those who believe in 'THE Lord' or 'THE Master', more readily accept the claims of those like yourself who would compare Maharaji to Jesus - someone who lived and died before you were born and who you believe was in some way uncommonly divine.

The whole Santa Claus myth grew from a simple truth (about a man named Nicholas) into a huge lie (about a couple living at the North Pole with a bunch of elves and flying reindeer). It's simply not true. And I can still denounce the 'Santa' at the shopping mall as being a fraud without it implying that ONE of these mall Santas MUST be the real thing. Hope I haven't just ruined your Christmas.

Or have you lost the dream altogether?

Maharaji is a fraud. You are free to sit on whoever's lap you choose. Nobody is making you read or post here.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 10:19:46 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: speaking of names
Message:
Hey, I knew we would agree on someting if we went at it long enough. I taught my kids when they were very young that Santa Claus represents the spirit of giving...I know the whole Nicholas story too.

Why can't you just agree to disagree and not be so reactionary? What we are talking about here is the potential for someone who is a Master Teacher - a phenomenon that has been recorded over and over down through history who apparently comes with the same information - that which you seek is within you.

Just as you can't fit the ocean in a dixie cup, you can't contain everything in that little brain of yours - the Kantian leap of faith opens up understanding that confounds logic - don't blame me, man, I didn't invent this stuff. I'm just another person on the planet like you. I have come to my conclusions and you have come to yours. Insult matches aside, if you have something substantial to say to back up your position, please be specific.
Otherwise, I'm done with you, no offense.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 10:22:28 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: speaking of names
Message:
Note to Self:

Remember that Maharaji himself asked us not to associate him or the Knowledge with anything or anyone else - that would inlcude Jesus et al.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 18:29:41 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: reacting to SHP
Message:
Why can't you just agree to disagree and not be so reactionary?

When you tell people that they are manifesting into OGRES, they are probably going to react, SHP. :)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 00:56:11 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: ogre sighting
Message:
Only an ogre (a monster or giant in fairy tales that ate people) or some other hideous creature would post Marolyn's letter against her personal wishes, especially with her being in such a frail state.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 11:27:46 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: ogre sighting
Message:
SHP: Might I remind you that it ISN'T Marolyn's letter once the Postal Service gets its hands on it? It 'belongs' to the recipient, who DID APPROVE of it being posted here! In case you didn't get it the first time: A LETTER IS THE SOLE PROPERTY OF THE RECIPIENT! If you want confirmation, read 'Mr. Ex' input in the thread that contains her letter.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 14:12:37 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: ogre sighting
Message:
How can I expect you, after reading your shit, to understand what it means to honor a request from somone, regardless of your postal service/legal rights?

Legalese like your screwed up logic is what made this world all messed up.

I feel like spending time here is more and more a waste of time.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 14:39:38 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: ogre sighting
Message:
SHP: You know, instead of coming in here and 'deciding' that the collective 'we' is all screwed-up, why don't you try LISTENING to people for a change. Why don't you ask 'WHY?' Why don't you ask why we left the cult (as we prefer to call it)? You didn't... NONE OF YOU (premies) do? You know what that means? It means that you THINK you are superior! You THINK that you have every answer to every question! You THINK that you are something special! Well, if listening to 'that voice inside' has really given you every answer to every question, I have a really complex problem with cepheids that I would like to discuss with you. No, I'm not going to tell you what a cepheid is because you already know what they are.... YOU KNOW EVERYTHING, remember?

Now, if you turn around and admit that you can't answer a quesion concerning cepheids, then what makes you think for a single moment that you can tell me ANYTHING about a much more complex structure.... ME! What arrogance you possess, shp!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 17:01:13 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: So Mike....
Message:
So Mike,

Tell me a little bit about yourself, if you will.
Why do you have so much ill will for Maharaji?

Sincerely,
SHP (one helluva adaptable creature)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 21:18:09 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: ogre sighting
Message:
Cepheid?? CEPHEID?? What kind of shit is THIS you're talking, some kind of legalese mumbo jumbo, no doubt. I actually looked up the word in the dictionary. It's not in there. What's a cepheid?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 10:21:12 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Ah, got your attention
Message:
Jerry: A cepheid is a 'variable star' that has fixed(?) and known characteristics with regard to its mass, 'average' magnitude and 'brightness' period. What do they have to do with anything? Well, it's a BIGGIE! They are used to determine distance (and thus time/age) in space beyond our ability to use the simple 'parallax' system. I started to write a small dissertation and then changed my mind because it would be a book (literally). Suffice it to say that they are the reason that we can say a particular object is a certain distance from us (in terms of light-years). Did you ever wonder how the heck we know a particular object is 5 million light-years from earth? Well, now you know how its done. BUT, there is a small(?) problem concerning how old the universe is, based upon another measurement model, as opposed to what we... ahem... know about how old the universe is according to cepheids. I know that you have heard about the new discoveries, as yet unconfirmed, concerning the Hubble Constant and the wildly divergent views on the age of the universe (with some very notable conflicts). This is part of that research. So there you have it in a VERY simplified nutshell. Hope it didn't bore you.... he he he. ;-)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 13:32:39 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Yes, you did
Message:
Thanks Mike. I haven't gone much into cosmology or astrophysics yet. I've got a couple of books on the shelf on both that I should get around to someday. The only thing I know about distant stars is that they disprove the book of Genesis' account that the universe is only thousands of years old since it takes millions of years for the light of these stars just to reach us so we can see them.

No, Mike, yawn, you didn't boor me at all, yawn, not too much, anyway. Hey, yawn, yawn... I asked for it, right? :)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 14:56:08 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: ogre sighting
Message:
SHP,
Read my post above in the Marolyn thread--the one to Helen and TD.

You asked why everyone was reacting to you and not just responding with civility to your post. I was just reminding you that you had started out that post calling names. That causes people to react, as you may have noticed when it happens to you around here.
VP
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 17:08:51 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: kali yuga static control
Message:
I did alot of reading on this site before posting anything. You called a good friend of mine alot of nasty names that I considered
inaccurate and vulgar. Nevertheless, I began my correspondence with people on this site in good faith and with civility.

I began using name calling as a way to relate to some of you, for that was the language that was being spoken, so I thought you might catch my drift if I spoke your vernacular.

You can go through all my posts from the beginning and see that what I say is true. I was civil to those who were civil and I was beastial to those who were beastial. Just trying to relate, ol' buddy.

B'bye.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 18:44:56 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: control freak
Message:
You called a good friend of mine alot of nasty names that I considered inaccurate and vulgar.

So, who's the good friend we insulted? Don't tell me--let me guess...gomeraji! Yeah, I'll bet you're the best of buddies, you know, let's go out for a couple of beers, take in a movie, etc.

NO WAY-- he doesn't know you're alive AND COULDN'T CARE LESS

SUCKER!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 00:42:41 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: my dear fellow
Message:
Dear Gerry:

Out of respect for Katie, I am using a more formal approach.

Your most recent correspondence of 11/25/98 belied a sadness, a disappointment curdled into a disturbing anger of such great magnitute that it has come to my attention.

Although I empathize with you, and in the words of the US president and in his dialect: 'AH FEEEL YER PINE', there is nothing that I can do to alleviate your stress.

It has been my experience that when all else fails, to follow the directions on the package.

Once again, thank you for your consideration.

Sincerely,

SHP
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 13:20:21 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: my dear fellow
Message:
My dear Mr. Sheep,

I have no idea what you might be trying to say. I have asked you some questions and ye preferred to responded in scat lingo. Cool. But did you see we almost got kicked out of the classroom?

BTW you are batting zero in the mind reading department. I am not sad and the only thing I'm disappointed in is the low price of corn, a commodity in which I am currently invested.

A little about myself: I got the big K in '73 and lived in two ashrams. Of course the ashram was supposed to be THE place to be if one desired enlightenment. Fortunately, through his grace, I saw through the scam of Knowledge and wasted a mere single year of my life pursuing this mythological state and the bogus gooroo.

It pleaseth me, dear sir, to slag the fat ass fake. And those who promote his viscious and debilitating lie. Unfortunately this includes you. We were, and you are, willing accomplices to this fraud, albeit with noble intentions.

The orchestrator of this fraud has no such noble intentions. He is in it for self aggrandizement and monetary enrichment. This is not mind reading. The evidence is there for all to see.

Now, if it pleaseth thee could ye answer this: Are ye enlightened? Have you ever met a premie who was? Is this still the goal of your so-called spiritual journey?

My you some day come to disdain the gooroo as well. This is as close to a blessing as I can offer ye. amen
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 17:21:02 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: kali yuga static control
Message:
What in the hell is kali yuga static control? Pardon me, I'm very young.

'You called a good friend of mine alot of nasty names that I considered inaccurate and vulgar.'

What ARE you talking about? Who is your friend and what did I call him/her? I don't recall ever calling a premie or ex-premie on this forum a lot of nasty names.

I don't think you know very much about my venacular. When you said 'you', were you grouping all ex-premies together, like 'you blacks' or 'you jews' or 'you premies' or 'you men'...get my drift?

VP
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 19:12:01 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: SHP
Subject: speaking of names
Message:
Why can't you just agree to disagree and not be so reactionary?

As VP said, you are complaining about an open forum. You are posting here by choice. Maharaji hasn't 'asked' you to post here. Nobody else asked you.

This is a forum hosted by and for ex-premies. We are people who saw what you see and now see through it. There is a notice at the top of the index requesting you to read the forum introduction page. There you found (if you followed the instructions) words to the effect that premies are allowed to post here.

But viewpoints defending what we have struggled to throw off aren't going to be met with open minds. Our minds were open, and Maharaji has grown rich off of our actions and donations that flowed freely as a result of allowing him to bypass our own critical thinking. He no longer has credibility here among us, and neither do those who would promote the same gibberish he spouts.

Ex-premies are not allowed to post openly on his little website. Dissent is not tolerated on Premie Island. Is this something that you defend? What words of protest have you written to ELK if not? Are you waiting for Maharaji to tell you to object? Bring along a good book to read if so.

What we are talking about here is the potential for someone who is a Master Teacher - a phenomenon that has been recorded over and over down through history who apparently comes with the same information - that which you seek is within you.

This is what YOU are talking about here. I'm past believing that the Master Teacher belief is anything that I want to pretend again. That you still believe it, and must look here for any actual dialog containing opposing viewpoints, is your cross to carry in life. As long as you want to, that is.

Note to Self: Remember that Maharaji himself asked us not to associate him or the Knowledge with anything or anyone else - that would include Jesus et al.

Yes. Always remember what Maharaji asks. And always do it. Do not question, Self. Never delay in obeying The Master. Or in pretending that Maharaji has authority that you don't personally hand him. You are a fool, SHP, because you choose to not act on your own volition, but instead choose to defer to a fraudulent Lord.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 23:38:49 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: speaking of names
Message:
You said: you are complaining

>No, I am basically inquiring, sharing information and questioning your position. It is you who are complaining.

You are posting here by choice. Maharaji hasn't 'asked' you to post here. Nobody else asked you.

>You got that right.

premies are allowed to post here.

>Thank you for the hospitality, really.

He no longer has credibility here among us, and neither do those who would promote the same gibberish he spouts.

>I kind of picked up on the fact that Maharaji doesn't have credibility among you, but thanks for pointing that out. I don't have the time or the inclination to split hairs with you or anyone else on every single syllable, sentence, line, paragraph, thought, feeling and post that I make. The spirit of all of our messages is not just in the words, but between the lines, in the way we all imprint on each other ourselves via this media even though we don't know each other personally.

Dissent is not tolerated on Premie Island. Is this something that you defend?

>I neither defend nor condemn it. I am a free agent in this universe. Nobody owns me. I don't get into the administrative stuff anymore if I can help it. It is always changing. I am trying to stay with something constant inside of me that is unchanging and totally satisfying. That is what drew me in the first place and that is still available. And I don't mean that I am an emotionless, passionless, being just breathing and appreciating it...there is much, much more down the road once one lets go of the struggle, that is indescribably wonderful. I credit Maharaji with showing me how to access that and am grateful to him for it, period. In return for what he did for me, I try to return the favor by assisting his efforts to spread the Knowledge. He said once that 'perfect' doesn't mean he never stubs his toe or never cuts himself shaving. For me, everything else is theory. It is alien to us humans to be in a place of no opposites, of just one thing, no + or -, just a pure experience. If that's how they run that website, that's how they run that website. No value judgements necessary. Things are what they are. I don't know everything, but based on what I do know from my experience before and since receiving Knowledge, I can safely predict that their website will change and grow if it remains online, but Knowledge will remain the same reliable rock that I have always found it to be. Is the guy who throws a rope to a drowning person and saves their life subject to anal examinations by the survivor if they take a drink or eat a burger or fly their own plane or need money to operate on this planet or read Superman comic books...? I heard a good one once about Maharaji going to Kingston Jamaica many years ago. There was a big conflict among the local premies as to which vegetarian restaurant was the purest one to take him to...he ended up going out for steak. I saw that as a teaching, but I am sure that many veggie premies went nuts in theirs heads over this and for some it may have turned them totally off. My perception of pretty much everything I have heard and seen on this site is an extension of that example in other scenarios. I am open, not naive.

I'm past believing that the Master Teacher belief is anything
that I want to pretend again.

>I am confident there are folks down throughout history who have not subscribed to any teacher and have had totally fulfilling lives. (I heard Maharaji say the same thing a long time ago.) I believe one's experience is based on the truest and deepest desire of one's heart, and that is what I believe the Creator responds to, not the multiple onion layers of mental stuff that have been superimposed on us, by us, but not particularly for us. I subscribe to the Master Teacher idea because I believe in my heart they have existed and do exist now. I also believe that we all have options that do not jeopardize our souls. If Maharaji is not your cup of tea, don't drink it. But are you so sure of your information that you would call that cup poison to everyone in the world?

You are a fool, SHP, because you choose to not act on your own volition, but instead choose to defer to a fraudulent Lord.

>You say I am a fool and I say you have missed the boat, and you are not a very good reader of people. You have paid attention to everything but the essence of why Maharaji even became a public figure. Some of you exers even say that you still practice, but reject him....excuse me??? You eat the fruit and cut try to cut down the tree from which it came? I'd really like to hear an explanation for that one, not that you owe it to me...

I have been acting on my own volition the past few days by posting here as sincerely as I can. If and when I stop, it is not because you have confounded me or that I am afraid of looking at my own commitment and life. I will come and go as I please. I can't speak for anyone else, but I like to go where the love is and where truth is sought and spoken. As long as there is a shred of that on your site, I'll see ya around.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 00:47:52 (EST)
From: bill burke
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: eat the fruit-kill the tree?
Message:
You asked for a reason for 'eating the fruit and cutting
down the tree'.

I think the doctor example I gave can be useful for this
question also.

If we were the first to complain about him that might be one thing.
But lets not forget the long line of VERY staunch
believers who have left after being around him.
His mom and brothers,
Bob Mishler. Jim Hession, Bill Patterson(you want to tell me
that you are more devoted than HIM??)
Most of the instructors, his sons, His wife was driven mad
by his abuse and domination. It is no secret about his
affairs and his drinking and drug taking.
If you really paid attention to the videos you yourself
could see the god given cracks that are there to give
you a chance to break free.

The 'wolf in sheeps clothing' ?

Ever consider the bad effect that one guy that claims to
be special has on the behaviors of millions eventually?
The whole buddha/hindu no-god trip has given us
a permanent caste system, and the burden that we are
supposed to somehow get to 'elevated states' while
we are here instead of just relax and accept your
design features and don't pretend you are more advanced
in some invisible way than the next guy.

And in that whole belief fantasy, there is no way to call
someone to account for thier false claims to be a sadhu
or a lama or even for the women to say to the guys from
those countries 'look, you aren't some god damn brahmin,
I am as close to god as you and get off your false pretenses
and just be a guy would you?'
NOOOO, does YOUR wife have to accept your great
advancement spiritually? Are you better than the next guy?
Are you more enlightened? Do your relatives think so?
Or anyone that actually lives with you?

The eastern thing is a curse.
A burden.
If going inside and looking at the back of your eyelids
was actually a great thing, you know, better than looking at a tree, more 'truth' than looking out your god given eyes,
than dont you think you would have actually seen it by now?

Pick any religion or belief group, the real true believers are
wierd. Why is that?

I am going away for a few days so I will respond to your
post then.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 01:06:07 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: bill burke
Subject: eat the fruit-kill the tree?
Message:
I don't say that I am a greater or lesser devotee than anyone else, whether present or absent. I am who I am, and I do not compare myself to others, nor do I base my actions or value on a peer group, no matter how illustrious. If I had verified information that adultery was committed, I would have to think twice about my stand, but so far all I have is goissip. I still believe in God, and have never been asked to or been told to give that up.

I believe that God looks upon our hearts, our innermost and truest motives and that is our Judge - our own hearts. How it 'looks' or who is doing the looking doesn't matter if I am being true to myself.

Have a good trip.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 18:52:10 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: SHP - Disturbing Thoughts
Message:
SHP there are a few of your comments that are kind of distressing. First, regarding the censored, closed premie website, that has M's official sanction, you said:

I neither defend nor condemn it. I am a free agent in this universe. Nobody owns me. I don't get into the administrative stuff anymore if I can help it. It is always changing. I am trying to stay with something constant inside of me that is unchanging and totally satisfying...If that's how they run that website, that's how they run that website. No value judgements necessary. Things are what they are.

Why is it that knowledge becomes a safe excuse for having to say a discouraging word about how Maharaji runs things? This radicallly convervative view is a very common rationalization I have heard lots of premies use, and which I have used when I was a premie when troubling facts invaded premie paradise. You are just neutral, have no opinion, aren't interested and/or wax philosophical about how everything changes in this world, but 'that place' doesn't change. It's just the way things are, so why comment or have an opinon? Are you frightened to state your real opinion regarding censorship and exclusion in a website representing something that is supposed to be so open and full of love? Or are you so spiritually high that it's just beneath you.

It is alien to us humans to be in a place of no opposites, of just one thing, no + or -, just a pure experience.

Well, I think you are trying to talk about the experience of knowledge here, that's why I have a hard time seeing how you can call it 'alien' when it is supposed to be the most beautiful and natural state. That having been said, I couldn't disagree more with your statement. Maharaji is all about a big duality. There is knowledge, and there is everything else. One is real and the other is illusion, mind, duality, suffering. He peddles the opposites, the constant + or -, just about every time he opens his mouth. I think that's all just a Hindi concept and not true. This is based on my own experience of practicing knowlege for 10 years and coming out the other side. I don't and can't argue with your personal experience, but my life improved immensely when I stopped following Maharaji. The duality went away and I became much happier.

By the way, this:

I am confident there are folks down throughout history who have not subscribed to any teacher and have had totally fulfilling lives. (I heard Maharaji say the same thing a long time ago.) If Maharaji is not your cup of tea, don't drink it.

Is contradictory to THIS:

I say you have missed the boat.

What do you really think, SHP? Is knowledge and Maharaji NOT for everyone, or is it FOR everyone and some people just don't know it, or in the case of ex-premies, they knew it but forgot (or something). I would submit it definitely is NOT for me. I gave it the best try I possibly could for 10 years and conclude that it doesn't work and I don't want any part of it. Am I just confused? And how did I get that way if we had such a great master? The master who has been coming to earth for eons to show the way? Since M has lost 90% of the premies, what does that say about him? Perhaps spending too much time buying stuff?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 21:54:27 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: SHP - Disturbing Thoughts
Message:
What do you really think, SHP?

>The boat I think you missed is not Maharaji's necesarily...you conveniently quoted out of context about the cup of tea, just the first part...what about calling that cup poison to whoever logs on. Are ya absolutely sure?

>Maharaji said he is not everyone's guru.

>What I really think is that his opulent life style, his money, his evolving approach are things I have no problem with.

how you can call it 'alien' when it is supposed to be the most beautiful and natural state

>you are just playing on words here, JW. Living in a noisy, materialistic world, coming out of such an environment, Knowledge does at first seem like an alien experience. Like climbing a mountain and getting used to the rare air.

Are you frightened to state your real opinion regarding censorship?

>No. I find censorship very distasteful. Friends of mine have died in wars to defend freedom of speech. Question is, is what you see on the enjoylife website really censorship, or is it something else, something you haven't correctly identified, something you wouldn't accept anyway even we agreed it wasn't censorship?

>All you know about me is what I have revealed to you in my posts.
There is more to both of us than meets the eye, I am sure.

>I was not predisposed to the idea that all you exers were dysfunctional, stupid, nuts or confused, or I would not have checked in here and invested the time, energy and love that I have. Unfortunately, I feel that a vast majority of you exers have treated me like I am off because I still follow Maharaji.
This is a dead-end relationship I have tried to cultivate. As intellectually titillating as this has been, it's futile to continue in this vein. Quote each other out of context til you all turn blue. God bless ya all.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 22:23:59 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: Batter up!
Message:
No. I find censorship very distasteful. Friends of mine have died in wars to defend freedom of speech. Question is, is what you see on the enjoylife website really censorship, or is it something else, something you haven't correctly identified, something you wouldn't accept anyway even we agreed it wasn't censorship?

Alright, SHP, show us once again why we should respect you. Explain, if you will, how the ELK scene ISN'T highly censored.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 23:37:46 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Batter up!
Message:
Respect this:

After looking up the word 'censor' in all its various definitions, I do see how what is happening on the enjoyinglife site can be called censorship. I have no answer or defense for what appears to be a MONITORING AND A CHANGING of certain phrases and words.

I don't know who is actually and directly responsible for it, and I am not going to speculate or assume that Maharaji is directly involved. I do not like it, but that is hardly reason enough to disavow Maharaji.

Devotees down through the ages have repeatedly screwed up in misguided efforts to serve their teachers. I don't blame the teacher for those things.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 23:51:33 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: Batter up!
Message:
Okay, SHP, congratulations. I give you a little credit for admitting the obvious. I mean, let's face it, there wasn't a whole lot of wiggle room on this, was there? Censorship is censorship and this, my friend, is a classic example.

I don't know who is actually and directly responsible for it, and I am not going to speculate or assume that Maharaji is directly involved. I do not like it, but that is hardly reason enough to disavow Maharaji.

Devotees down through the ages have repeatedly screwed up in misguided efforts to serve their teachers. I don't blame the teacher for those things.


Fair enough. So I take it you're going to email the folks at ELK and ask them if Maharaji knows they're behaving so atrociously? Or maybe you'll bring it up with Maharaji himself, right? Send him a little note maybe? Say something at the next program? What's that you say? That's not an appropriate time? Sorry! Hey, YOU pick them time. Tell me when, during your anticipated remaining 30 or 40 years on this planet, you'll ever have an opportunity to ask him.

Oh, I know! This is a little indirect but maybe a start. Contact the girls and boys at Visions Int'l, the folks who've just put out their ELK t-shirt. Ask THEM if they know. Ask them if Maharaji knows.

Or, brother, hide your head in the sand. Your call.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 00:32:57 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Batter up!
Message:
Jim:

I am more particular now in choosing which battles to engage in than I used to be. I wasted alot of time and energy in the past by spreading myself too thin. That doesn't mean I have my head in the sand.

If I get a burning desire in my heart to follow up with this website cause then I will. If I don't, I won't.

I did not receive Knowledge to be a shepherd or a counselor for wacked out people who somehow received the techniques but don't know what love and consideration for others is yet.

The sincere practice of Knowledge is the only thing that will make an individual change. I don't want to waste my life casting pearls before swine, whether the swine somehow crashed a Knowledge session, or if the swine never heard of Maharaji.

When I was an aspirant, I was hitching around Toronto and hooked up with a very wise and experienced premie lady who was like my spirit guide. I told her how much I wanted to be real close to Maharaji and be with him in person alot and serve him up close and personal and all that. She told me that I was probably closer to him where it counted than alot of people were, and that alot of the ones who served him the closest were probably the most vicious people in the group and that's why Maharaji kept them close to him, to protect them and the rest from each other.

Prophecies fortell of a Knowledge of the Lord that will allow lions and lambs to share the same water hole. (Isaiah) It is still my sincere belief that this is what we are on the brink of, and it's not the Disney movie we have all been conditioned to expect...it's messy, real-time Kali Yuga/Sat Yuga dovetailing in our lifetime, I believe. I have no reference book, no website, no expert opinion, no pundit to give me the answers moment by moment other than to practice Knowledge. When I practice, it shows me my safe harbor within.

That's all for now.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 09:05:52 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: Strike!
Message:
I am more particular now in choosing which battles to engage in than I used to be. I wasted alot of time and energy in the past by spreading myself too thin. That doesn't mean I have my head in the sand.

No, no, to the contrary, that's exactly what it means. You're here, you're engaged, you're involved, you care, we're talking.. the only problem is: you're cornered. This has nothing to do with your sudden 'lack of interest' and everything to do with ... (yawn)...your indefensible position.

I did not receive Knowledge to be a shepherd or a counselor for wacked out people who somehow received the techniques but don't know what love and consideration for others is yet.

Hey, what is this? I thought we already agreed I'm fucked up. Why belabour the point? No, stupid, the question you're so patently trying to evade is whether Maharaji knows about the censorship on ELK and, if so, how you feel about that. Nice try, SHP.

Prophecies fortell of a Knowledge of the Lord that will allow lions and lambs to share the same water hole. (Isaiah) It is still my sincere belief that this is what we are on the brink of, and it's not the Disney movie we have all been conditioned to expect...it's messy, real-time Kali Yuga/Sat Yuga dovetailing in our lifetime, I believe. I have no reference book, no website, no expert opinion, no pundit to give me the answers moment by moment other than to practice Knowledge. When I practice, it shows me my safe harbor within.

I think you should get a hold of a few copies of Mark's Sedona Journal. The only thing you're missing is a few channellers. Oh, sorry, I forgot to say this is my sincere belief. Hey, fool, let it all in! Why not? You know, I'm beginning to think that you're one dummy who actually has room for both Prempal AND Satpal in your heart. Why not? This is ny sincere belief, you know. That's got to count for something.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 17:29:37 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Strike!
Message:
Jim:

I said: I did not receive Knowledge to be a shepherd or a counselor for wacked out people who somehow received the techniques but don't know what love and consideration for others is yet.

You said: Hey, what is this? I thought we already agreed I'm fucked up. Why belabour the point? No, stupid, the question you're so patently trying to evade is whether Maharaji knows about the censorship on ELK and, if so, how you feel about that. Nice try, SHP.

I am saying: You missed my point. The wacked out people with Knowledge I was referring to above are the people who are operating as premies and are misprepesenting him by being cruel or
acting unconsciouly and freaking people like you out. I said this in response to your challenge to me to whip the premies into shape on the website, etc. You are paranoid. Got it?

But Jim, what you did with Marolyn's letter was really low.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 18:40:23 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: A quick one, shp
Message:
SHP: Actually, after rereading the letter, I saw nothing in there that would embarrass Marolyn anymore than if it were written by ANY premie. The fact that I don't personally care for the 'implications' of what she is saying is meaningless in this context. She didn't say ANYTHING that premies don't say here everytime they post. I will say that, despite her recovering from major surgery at the time, that she was much clearer about her beliefs than the average premie that posts here. I'm not sure why she would not have wanted ANYONE to read it because it was a pretty simple statement of her beliefs and feelings concerning M & K. Just my take, but I don't see the big deal here. I do find it offensive that she refers to ex's as 'assholes.' So, I guess my question is, 'why the big deal?' Is it because she is the 'wife of the lord' or what? Think about it. There have been several communiques revealed here and no one really ever got upset, but all of the sudden a letter from Marolyn and all hell breaks loose. Why the double standard? Seriously, I'm not trying to pour salt in the wound, I really don't get it.

BTW, the implication that I found a bit disturbing was this: It is apparent (to me) that she wasn't really interested in the problems of the person with whom she was corresponding and, in fact, apparently 'evades' problems rather than trying to meet them head-on and really fix them. Just my opinion, but it looked pretty obvious to me.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 00:58:36 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: A quick one back at ya, mike
Message:
Mike:

Jim stated that he specifically wanted to f*** with (*'s out of respect for Katie, God bless her) Maharaji and his wife.

That's not good form, period. It is cowardly and a cheap shot.

Forget about Maharaji for a minute (I can do that and still be a premie, for all you little buzzards waiting to pick the meat off this one)...mano y mano Jim did a low' down, sleazy thing to not respect Marolyn's or ANYONE'S ELSE's wishes to not be published.
I am not into double standards either. I wouldn't do that to anyone, regardless of who they were.

This is not a threat from me or Maharaji, but in the real world,
people end up in court or in ditches for f***ing around with men and their wives and getting into their personal business and publishing it, lies and all. This is just a reality check, not a threat. Jim is hiding behind his computer, doing and saying things he would never do in person because he knows he is not entirely right on. But hey! A good friend of mine who is my computer mentor has a saying: 'When you're on the net nobody knows you're a dog', with a little cartoon of a dog with his hands on a keyboard just banging away and staring at the screen.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 00:45:43 (EST)
From: dv
Email: dear ann
To: SHP
Subject: Batter up!
Message:
Were these the most vicious people on the planet that the most 'qualified' person on earth had to give knowledge to and manage very closely, out of 6 or so billion? Were they the most problematic in m's world?

Beware of self fulfilling programming-i mean prophecies.

I love safe harbours.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 01:04:22 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: Batter up!
Message:
I just related a story that happened to me.
Take it for what it's worth. Any questions about why Maharaji does what he does, ask him. Happy Thanksgiving.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 12:40:26 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: Batter up!
Message:
Thanks for admitting the censorship, SHP. I posted down below why I think it's important.

But also be aware of blaming the premies for what M is actually responsible for. This is extremely common in the premie world, and a convenient form or revisionism.

Visions, Intl, a company M directly controls and his two daughters are employed by, is giving away a t-shirt with the enjoyinglife website address on it. That wouldn't be happening if the website didn't have M's approval. So M is directly involved. I think you can safely assume that directions are coming directly from him, through those around him. If M has a problem with the censorship going on there, which this website, which is regularly monitored by his henchmen, has made him aware, certainly M will immediately contact the website operators and tell them to print entries without censorship, including those from ex-premies, who have a somewhat different slant on him and knowledge. How likely do you think that is?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 12:29:59 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: SHP - Even More Disturbing
Message:
The boat I think you missed is not Maharaji's necesarily...you conveniently quoted out of context about the cup of tea, just the first part...what about calling that cup poison to whoever logs on. Are ya absolutely sure?

what boat did I miss? Lost me there, SHP? Doesn't make any sense. What the hell does that mean?

The rest of what you say is unfair, SHP. You continue to avoid answering the question. Is knowledge for everyone or not? The bullshit about the poison is bullshit. People have their own opinions, but I have never said that if someone is having a good time being a premie they should stop and I have never questioned someone else's personal experience. That is entirely a straw man argument and apparently another excuse for not answering the questions. You said M isn't everyone's cup of tea. Then you said ex-premies are 'missing the boat.' Don't be dishonest, just say what you think, if you can.

you are just playing on words here, JW. Living in a noisy, materialistic world, coming out of such an environment, Knowledge does at first seem like an alien experience. Like climbing a mountain and getting used to the rare air.

I suggest you inform your master of this point, as he seems to be entirely unaware of it. Novel theory, though. Maharaji has always said that knowledge is the most beautiful, natural state, certainly not 'alien' in any sense of the word. If you read the enjoyinglife 'lives' no one mentions the alien qualities of knowledge there either. But maybe that has been censored out. But I have heard M over the years disparage the world and all the craziness in it, my point is that M just adds another duality to that in what he preaches. And also turning your own mind into a devil is pretty weird too. Definitely NOT my cup of tea.

Question is, is what you see on the enjoylife website really censorship, or is it something else, something you haven't correctly identified, something you wouldn't accept anyway even we agreed it wasn't censorship?

I think censorship is pretty obvious when you see it SHP so responding with a question is just avoidance. We submitted lives entries andt they edited out anything that didn't meet premiespeak approval circa 1998. Any mention that M might have made the teensiest of mistakes was verbotten. Also, anything about his past, especially the lord of the universe period, was also verbotten. They just edited whole sections of peoples' entries without any approval whatsoever. That is censorship, verging on blatant lying, for the purpose of maintaining an image of M and knowledge that is in vogue these days. And there you go again with your rationalization that because we wouldn't accept it anyway, it doesn't matter. See my earlier post about this kind of circular, illogical thinking. In any event it's another specious argument, and really beneath you.

SHP, the reason ex-premies react to some of the things you say, is that we said a lot of the same stuff for years and now see how _______(stupid, ineffectual, programmed, etc.,) it is. You can't expect no reaction when you argue that 'it just doesn't matter' or 'you wouldn't be satisfied anyway.' I wouldn't let my kids get away with an excuse like that, let alone another adult. And since being a premie was a significant period of my life, I do tend to react when premies say I should just forget it, ignore it, get over it, or whatever. I'm not about to do that and I think it's insulting for someone to suggest it.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 21:49:43 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: Knowledge alien?
Message:
Living in a noisy, materialistic world, coming out of such an environment, Knowledge does at first seem like an alien experience. Like climbing a mountain and getting used to the rare air.

Now I think YOU missed the boat, SHP. Knowledge, supposedly, provides the experience of 'coming home'. There's supposed to be nothing more NATURAL than it. If you feel that K, at first, seemed like an alien experience, I'd have to say that you're not experiencing the K that M's talking about.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 01:23:49 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Knowledge alien?
Message:
got no time for semantics...you all know what I meant
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 07:35:33 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: Semantics?
Message:
According to M, Knowledge is the most natural thing in the world, nothing to 'get used to'. In fact, I've heard him say that it's this materialistic world that we have to get used to, not Knowledge. You called your experience of K to be, initially, alien, like climbing a mountain getting used to the fresh air. Semantics is having more than one way of saying the same thing, but I'd say you just described K as being something entirely DIFFERENT to what M says it is.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 09:27:16 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Yes, Jerry there are semantics
Message:
I haven't gotten my manual of Premie/ex-Premie-speak this month yet. Sorry.

Maharaji has also said that when you have listened to alot of very loud music (or your own thundering thoughts) up close, it takes time to let the ears adjust to hear the beauty of a flute wisping out a very light and lovely note. That's what I meant.

Jesus would probably have called what you are doing with my words straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 14:15:54 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: Now who's being sarcastic?
Message:
I haven't gotten my manual of Premie/ex-Premie-speak this month yet. Sorry.

Better be careful, SHP. This kind of sarcasm could get you stuck in ex-premie.org, forever.

Maharaji has also said that when you have listened to alot of very loud music (or your own thundering thoughts) up close, it takes time to let the ears adjust to hear the beauty of a flute wisping out a very light and lovely note. That's what I meant.

I'd hardly call this analogy of M's appropriate for an experience which is supposed to be the most natural thing in the world. How's about this? Natural would be something like, say, being lost in the woods on a cold and windy night. Suddenly, in a clearing you see a cabin, inside is a fire burning in the fireplace and hot soup boiling in the kettle. It would be the most 'natural' thing to enter this cabin, pour yourself a bowl of soup and warm yourself by the fire as you sip the soup. There would be no need to get 'used to' anything. IMHO, M's explanation that K is like a flute you have to accustom yourself to because of all the loud music you've been listening to is, well, just more bullshit from the lard, saying whatever he thinks is a good thing to say whenever he feels like it.

Jesus would probably have called what you are doing with my words straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel.

You're being what is called a 'bible thumper', SHP. Bible thumpers think that all they have to do is say 'Jesus said this' or 'Jesus said that' and that gives the thumper's argument all the validity in the world, that the rest of us will just humbly bow before it. It's cheap, and effective only with those who have been brainwashed to respond like Pavlov's dogs whenever they hear the words 'Jesus says'. Maybe 20 years ago you could have gotten away with this style of argument with me, but not today. I don't care what Jesus says about anything unless I happen to agree with it. In this case, I'd probably tell Jesus to mind his own Ps and Qs.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 03:21:59 (EST)
From: op
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: speaking of names
Message:
We are people who saw what you see and now see through it.

I like that. But please allow me to do a little interpolation:

We are people who saw WITH ONE SET OF LENSES what you see and now see through ANOTHER SET OF LENSES.

I don't deny that I have my own set of lenses that I see through. Each of us has her/his own set of lenses. I always loved the story of the blind men and the elephant - isn't it ALL interpretation?

One goal (at least for me) is to be able to remove the lenses and see clearly what is really there. And what I've found is that there is only one place/time that happens: when 'I' disappear.

So, again and again and again and again - we're talking apples and oranges. Or onions and lemons. Or skyscrapers and radio waves. Conversations between 'exes' and 'premies' never seem to get anywhere because one is talking about phenomena of the intellect and the other about something that transcends all physical influences.

I don't mean to say that one is better than the other. Or that transcendence is an imperative for human existence. Some people want to go there, others don't.

I used to love intellectual arguments. I wrote many term papers in my time, complete with reference footnotes and annotations. Some topics still interest 'me' - but they never led me to anything more than more running around in circles.

There's nothing wrong with running in circles - runners do it all the time. There is a peak of fulfillment every time you cross the finish line - one more lap completed!

Knowledge DID offer me a way out, a process of discovery of a universe I had guessed at, idealized, dreamed about. The fact that I can journey into it is not wish-fulfillment. It is not my imagination that is fulfilled - after nearly 30 years it continues to be new, uncharted, beyond my expectations.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 21:58:07 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: op
Subject: speaking of games
Message:
So, again and again and again and again - we're talking apples and oranges. Or onions and lemons. Or skyscrapers and radio waves. Conversations between 'exes' and 'premies' never seem to get anywhere because one is talking about phenomena of the intellect and the other about something that transcends all physical influences.

Hilarious. There couldn't be a narrower set of issues than those discussed by ex's and premies. It's not that ex's are talking ABOUT 'phenomena of the intellect' and premies ABOUT 'something that transcends all physical influences'. That's not it. We're all talking ABOUT the same stuff. What's so different is HOW we're talking.

Ex's are talking like regular people. By that I mean -- here's a kicker -- guilelessly. Premies, on the other hand, speak with forked tongue.

Example: Maharaji says he's Supreme Lord in Human Form. Premies will spin that out in a million directions. Some will say yes, he is, what of it? Others will say the thought is an abomination and only an utter fool would take it seriously. Others will try to find the whole concept embedded in a million shadows, who could ever make sense of it? Better just, as you said to me in email, 'let it all go'.

But, op, he said it and only ex's are willing to deal with it. You guys are, by virtue of your cult membership, unable to deal with anything honestly. You know it too. I've said this many times but I'll say it again. If we were having this discussion in person, I have absolutely no doubt that your shaem would kick in at some point. One can only lie for so long, create and exploit contradictions for so long, dissemble and posture so vainly for so long, before one's conscience siezes up.

If we sat around a living room for long enough, I bet you'd deprogram yourself. But, alas, that'd take a long time and really, when it comes right down to it, it probably won't ever happen. The sad fact is that no one cares about you enough. Sure, maybe when you were a kid your parents would have stopped at nothing to save you from wasting your time in some transparent cult like this. But now? Eh! People have their own lives, you've settled into yours. You've obviously made peace with any of the non-premies in your life. No, you're likely going to die in the cult. Those are the odds, anyway. Just like my great uncle died a JW. In the end, who gave a fuck? All of us are worth just so much attention. If you don't want it, relax, because soon the light'll stop shining your way.

Sometimes I wonder what would happen if Maharaji drew no criticism at all. Say we really did just give it up, move on, enough's enough. I think the premies have settled in to such a tepid bath with the guy, they're not about to make any moves in their lives. This is simply another religion and people usually stay in their religions, they don't leave them.

Anyway, I'm drifting. My point only is that you guys don't engage in honest discussion. You know it and your refusal to even admit that much blemishes your character. Let's not forget that, even after all this time, you remain anonymous. Are you a real person here? No, I wouldn't say so.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 00:12:25 (EST)
From: srb
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: a little something from mark
Message:
The phenomena of the master teacher?

You don't know enough about buddha or you would hesitate
to take that opinion so much to heart.

You could stand to look at mohammed also, his story
doesn't stand up so well in the light of day.

As for krishna, you and I both know there was never a
blue man.

People always tend to gild the lily.
Look at grateful dead heads they made myths about the
band members while the guys were alive and it was
very inaccurate.

Perhaps you would like to read about someone who works at
prem rawats house, something she said this year---
'You know, maharji would be smoking dope with someone
in the next room, but he never did it in front of me. He saved me from that, -you know, he was so kind. He knew I couldn't handle
that sort of thing. So he didn't do it in front of me.'
Ann Johnson
perhaps you know her?

Is there no such thing as accountability?
Is the god so beyond us that we can't make the judgement
call about any one of the thousands of guys and women that
come from the india/hindu/buddha orbit and claim to
be realized beings?

And then when god makes sure they start to go nuts,
WE brilliant faith filled believers give thier behaviour every
benefit of the doubt and want to go on believing.

Just the facts mam.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 01:39:55 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: srb
Subject: a little something from mark
Message:
As for krishna, you and I both know there was never a blue man.

>About ten years ago when I was an employment recruiter, I had the extreme pleasure of working with a young man named Jim Bush. He was a very special person. His personality and his kindness were exceptionally kind and gentle, I will never forget him. He died. HE WAS BLUE and I mean blue, like really cold lips about to get frostbitten, not just a little blue, his whole body. He was as blue as a blueberry stain on a white tablecloth and he was a friend of mine. His blueness was a result of a very rare heart condition, but that is not the point. And from the time I met him until he died, every time I saw him it would remind me of Krishna, who he incidentally had nothing to do with, far as I could tell.
THERE WAS TOO A BLUE MAN, SRB. AND YOU SAID THERE WASN'T. AND I HAD A BLUE FRIEND WHO IS GONE NOW. SHOULD I DOUBT YOU FROM NOW ON JUST BECAUSE YOU SPOKE FROM IGNORANCE HERE? MAYBE, BUT I WON'T.
Regarding the use of herbs, I have no problem with that. It neither validates nor invalidates Maharaji or Knowledge. Far as I know, he hasn't told the premies what to do or not to do, but rather sticks to the one thing - Knowledge. God created the green herbs for man to use - as mentioned in Genesis. Contemporary fear and confusion over weed is entangled in greed, industry and
conspiracies by very rich people to make more money by demonizing cannabis and continuing to manufacture synthetic pharmaceuticals,
nylon polyesters, paper from trees, and many other products instead of using what the Creator provided in the plant kingdom. As long as he isn't forcing me to light up against my will, I have no problem.

Regarding the messiness of this reaching-to-know-God process, and that it's not the storybook we were conditioned to expect when we were kids, hey what can I say? If you wanna make an omelette, you gotta break some eggs (sorry if I offended any ovo-vegans here) - so imagne the mess if someone wants to bring Knowledge to a screwed up planet. Lotsa broken concepts going way, way deep even to the core of our existence experience. Can't look right or left for verification, gotta look inside.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 19:23:20 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: Not for me
Message:
What we are talking about here is the potential for someone who is a Master Teacher - a phenomenon that has been recorded over and over down through history who apparently comes with the same information - that which you seek is within you.

Sorry, SHP, in my experience, that just isn't true. There is no special place you can find, 'within you', anytime you want to by practicing this K. At least, I've never found it. After 18 years of trying, I've got no reason to believe such a place exists.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 01:28:01 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Happy Thanksgiving
Message:
Ever heard of a Knowledge review if you are having problems practicing or with Knowledge? did you communicate your feeling about this to your teacher lately. As a fellow student, that is what I would advise you to do. I am just another student, don't ask me.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 07:55:42 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: Get serious
Message:
Like Maharaji is readily available to anyone struggling with Knowledge, right? M only wants to hear 'thank you' from people who have received K. If you're struggling with Knowledge, as far as he's concerned, it's because you 'can't accept it', this from a man who says that Knowledge is the most natural thing in the world. I know what it's like to feel natural and how welcome that feeling is, how easy it is for me to 'accept' it. Maharaji has nothing but bullshit to offer people who are struggling with Knowledge. You need to wake up, SHP. You live in a world of fantasy if you think someone can actually 'communicate' his feelings to the 'teacher'. I feel like laughing, your notion is so absurd.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 10:32:07 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com
To: SHP
Subject: speaking of names
Message:
As I see it, it's simple. The genuine article is God and the imposter is Maharaji. And what's all this about wounding? This is a war. Remember Maharaji called us his enemies. I'm afraid, dear fellow that this is out and out, no holds barred war.

It isn't nice and it isn't pretty. But that's the truth of it.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 11:06:35 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: speaking of names
Message:
Sir David:

Until otherwise notified by my God within me, I still subscribe to the notion of loving one's enemies....Not hugging or being a doormat, but being as real as I can in the moment, and not submitting to anger from within or without.

I am not your concept of an average premie. I have not considered my posts here to be battles in a war. Communicating with this site, sharing my viewpoint and commenting on others' has felt good to my heart, and that is why I have been here. Once aware of your site, I really wanted to know why you all feel the way you do. I have read and considered many posts, having had many of your own thoughts pass through my head as well over the years. It would take a long time and alot of trust and good will to try to sort this all out, short of an epiphany. And from the sound of your site in general, most minds are pretty made up that M is not righteous or genuine.

I won't argue with you, but I disagree.

Being unsure of someone's identity based on circumstantial evidence is one thing, and accusing someone of fraud is something else. And in this case, with the stakes being what they are, we all need to be damn sure of our information.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 12:40:01 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: It's not against you
Message:
I am not talking about a war against premies. The war is against Maharaji. It is not a violent war but a war against the falsehood that he preaches. It is a war to prevent him from continuing to spread his falsehood to innocent people.

Look, SHP. EIther Maharaji is God or he isn't. There are no grey areas here. If he is God, I will (despite some health problems) get a plane to the next program where he is doing darshan and surrender at his feet. I will also 'shout it on the streets' that the Lord has come and will do what I used to do when I believed he was the Lord, i.e. encourage people to come and become his devotees.

However, if Maharaji isn't God in human form, I am his enemy because he is perpetrating a lie to innocent people. He is trying to get people to worship him as God in human form and since he isn't that - he must be stopped.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 15:21:22 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: It's not against you
Message:
The only difference between you and me is that I believe he is the bringer of Knowledge to the world for this age and you do not.

Terms like 'embodiment of God' push alot of subconscious buttons in many cultures from religious dogmas. That is probably why he changed his approach.

It is a tall order to become a common denomiantor so that any human being from any part of the world can relate. He's not a race Messiah like Moses or Buddha, who addressed mainly their own sects. I believe he is a world teacher. We expect 'God' or his representatives to be 'perfect' based on our definition of perfection, maybe from our upbringing and from images like the ceiling of the Sistine chapel.

He's a human being who embodies Knowledge to the point that he could somehow initiate me into a tactile blissful experience that is not hypnotic or a personality cult in my case. I can speak for no one else but myself. Time will tell, and I wish you well.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 15:50:07 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: Quit being evasive, SHP
Message:
M siad the following:

'Who is Guru? The highest manifestation of God is Guru. So when Guru is here, God is here, to whom will you give your devotion? Guru Maharj Ji knows all. Guru Maharaji is Brahma (creator). Guru Maharaji is Vishnu (Operator). Guru Maharjai is Shiva (Destroyer of illusion and ego). And above all, Guru Mahraji is the Supremest Lord in person before us. I have come so powerful. I have come for the world. Whenever the great come,the worldly oppose them. Again I have come and you are not listening. Every ear should hear that the saviour of humanity has come. There should be no chance for anyone to say that they haven't heard of Guru Maharaj Ji. Those who have come to me are already saved. Now its your duty to save others. Shout it on the streets. Why be shy? When human beings forget the religion of humanity, the Supreme Lord incarnates. He takes a body and comes on this earth ......
When human beings forget this one way, then our Lord, who is the Lord of the whole universe, comes in human body to give us practical Knowlege, ....But, most ironically, we don't appreciate the Lord when He comes in His human body on this earth. Similarly, a Satguru, a Perfect Master, a Supreme Lord who is existing in the present time, can give you the practical Knowledge of the real thing... So God Himself comes to give practical Knowledge of His divinity, of His inner self, which is self-effulgent light, eternal light, all-pervading light. And the Supreme Master, the Satguru, gives practical Knowledge of that light, irrespective of caste, creed, color, religion or sex, to those human individuals who bow before him with reverence, with love and with faith.'

(Various excerpts - Who Is Guru Maharaj Ji)

Was he telling the truth? Yes or no?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 23:49:23 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I'll drink to that
Message:
Was he telling the truth? Yes or no?

>Was he telling the truth, you ask? The only way I can answer that truthfully is that I believe he was. All I can speak with any authority is my own experience.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 14:01:17 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: SHeeP
Subject: I'll drink to that
Message:
SHeeP said: He said once that 'perfect' doesn't mean he never stubs his toe or never cuts himself shaving.

So when did the fat phony start shaving?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 16:42:18 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: I'll drink to that
Message:
LOL 8>}
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 22:12:21 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: I'll drink to that
Message:
>Was he telling the truth, you ask? The only way I can answer that truthfully is that I believe he was. All I can speak with any authority is my own experience.

First, SHP, a small house-keeping matter. You're reversing the customary symbolizing of quotations. ' > ' is usually used for quoted text. So, unless you're trying to start a new trend and confuse people at the same time, I'd suggest you not use that symbol for your own words.

Second, thanks for the answer. But, tell me, why do you seem so hesitant? It looks as if you took a big gulp before answering that one. Come on, either you believe Maharaji without doubt or ....
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 15:36:01 (EST)
From: PremieInternetMindPatrol
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: Your are in your mind
Message:
SHP,

You are in your mind, which is clearly evidenced by the fact you are reading and posting to this site.

Good premies do not visit this site.

You are, hereby, ordered to embark on a jumbling mission visiting at least 100 households and bring the booty to your nearest Divine Sales office.

Please be aware that you do need the householder's permission to enter their premises to remove items. However, at your own discretion, due to the importance of raising money for the Mission, you may consider other options. Finally, the Mission will disavow any knowledge of your activities and you should not mention the Mission.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 23:51:40 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: PremieInternetMindPatrol
Subject: Your are in your mind
Message:
LOL (laughing out loud)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 17:53:34 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: PremieInternetMindPatrol
Subject: Your are in your mind
Message:
PIMP: I like your initials.... he he he ;-)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 11:21:48 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: speaking of names
Message:
SHP--
Sorry to say this guy, but this makes you sound very arrogant. It's an attempt to put yourself above us by saying 'they are all wounded & I am not'.

I do not think this is the way you would wish to come across. To paint all people with the same brush so that you can feel superior is not a nice thing to do. Does that help you protect your concepts about Maharaji? Why not just engage with folks on the forum as individuals and cut the stereotyping.

Helen
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 11:37:38 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: speaking of names
Message:
Whoa, Helen!

What makes you think I am not wounded too? By other aspects in my life unmentioned here? How/why do you think I became of aware of Caroline Myss in the first place? I never said or even implied that 'you are and I'm not'...I was just referring to our relationship with M and what it seems to have done to many on your site.
And I don't consider myself superior to anyone.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 12:08:13 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: speaking of names
Message:
Dear SHP,
Glad to get that straightened out. So what makes you think that so many of us are 'wounded' in other areas of our lives? This forum is the one place where we can help heal those wounds specific to the guru trip. And as far as I can see, it's also a place where a lot of discussion (intellectual debate) takes place. I see alot of strong people here on this forum, not a bunch of wounded little birds.

Selene jokes a lot about the 'N' word--negative. We were so programmed when we were involved with Maharaji that it is not OK to ever be negative, which is such a crock. If that's not 'group think', what is? Speaking for myself as a woman, it was double programming since there is so much pressure put on women to never be angry, to 'nurture til we're nuts' etc. There was a whole thread about premie relationships a few weeks back where folk talked about the weirdness of being in premie relationships and needing to argue, discuss, vent etc and having mates tell us 'you're in your mind' See, Maharaji never addresses the healthy expression of feelings. There is a lot of repression in our culture and in Mahraraji's trip that in my opinion does HARM, not good, to folks.

Oy, I gotta get out and enjoy this sunny day...
Take care
Helen

Helen
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 12:28:29 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: ANd furthermore
Message:
SHP,
IF GM asks for total surrender (which is what is required, you know that's true) how can he serve up such a woefully incomplete philosophy? He doesn't address ethics, doesn't address emotional health, so many of the things that we human beings gotta figure out to survive and live in this world. 'Truth is the consciousness of bliss' is to
me a giant set-up for misery, since human beings have other NEEDS that are HARD-WIRED within us--like having relationships, making decisions and choices, etc.

Now I think meditation is fine--I have no problems with that. I still meditate myself. But GM is saying 'surrender to me'. No thanks
to that part.

Love,
Helen
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 11:21:11 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: speaking of names
Message:
You're right SHeeP and you win. This is now a censored forum like enjoyinglife.org. But here's a place where anyone can Say Anything without censorship. Even you.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 16:22:34 (EST)
From: Little Yiddish Grandma
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: vat ees this guru?
Message:
So you dedicated your lives to some fat little rich guy and meditated day & night and this is vat you learned? That to breathe is good? I don't understand you young people today!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 20:02:14 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Little Yiddish Grandma
Subject: The Living Perfect Waster
Message:
Hi LYG. The breath isn't the issue, unfortunately.

The breath is about supplying oxygen to the heart and keeping those good old red blood cells chugging along.

The cult, meanwhile, is about making good people stupid.

>>>>
Oswaldo,who lives in Orlando, Florida ,tells of his reaction to finding the enjoyinglife site

I just recently found out about this web page through another person in Venezuela, who has Knowledge as well. I have to tell you that I was shocked that although Knowledge has been around for centuries, this is maybe the first time that it can happen this way - cyber-expressions. But I must also tell you that I was very touched by reading some of the experiences of other people with Knowledge around the world. Finally something of real value to read over the Net, at least now use of the Net has a different meaning. Moreover what I really wanted to share was that I never ever thought or had the most remote idea that after receiving this seed of love and after watering it and more importantly being cared for in such a way by Maharaji that I was going to feel the way I feel today about life and about things in general.

Words really fall short to even being to express the gratitude that the heart feels for the gift that has been given. Rescued from the stormy ocean - for lack of better words. To prepare myself every day to receive and welcome life is a little tiny effort that becomes an endless appreciation of being alive and breathing. An unusual relationship with the master and yet so, so sweet that the heart rejoices only to know and to hope and to see the giver again. At times it feels I can wait another day. But even if one lifetime is necessary I will wait. But every day I pray to see him soon again.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 20:09:16 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: The Living Perfect Waster
Message:
I couldn't have written it better myself...
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 23:28:18 (EST)
From: Laura
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: The Living Perfect Waster
Message:
Barf
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 12:48:29 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: The Living Perfect Waster
Message:
Nigel:

RE: I have to tell you that I was shocked that although Knowledge has been around for centuries, this is maybe the first time that it can happen this way - cyber-expressions.

He does have a point. It makes you wonder what the heck they were using the internet for in the late eighteenth century. Jefferson and Adams must have been technologically illiterate to have insisted on publishing the Federalist Papers instead of starting a chat forum. And what the heck were those Stoics thinking? Disgusting!

-Scott
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 16:06:02 (EST)
From: Little Yiddish Grandma
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: The Living Perfect Waster
Message:
I'm tryink to get this straight . So this schmegeggie , Guru Maharaji, turned your brain into a schmata rag of schmaltzy schmutz which caused you to get a gazeig in your ganeck-ta-go-zoink?

Oy, vy did you listen to that schmuck?

Little Yiddish Grandma
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 10:48:28 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Good Will
Message:
Hi Y'all,

Ever since I first saw this site, I became involved, not to convert yas, but I love the dialog between human beings who don't necessarily see things the same way. We laughed, we cried, we hurled, and now I gotta get on with my life. This process of web-talk can take up an incredible amount of time!

I will check back in from time to time, to honor responses to my notes. Until then, I wish you all a genuinely good life.

Rip and tear or think and feel, do what you will with me in cyberspace, but I still will respect your right to disagree in the morning.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 11:44:07 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: Good Will
Message:
And a pleasant la-di-da to you, SHP. Don't get blinded by that light now, or choke on too much nectar :)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 12:13:54 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: Good Will
Message:
I noticed that you didn't respond to my sincere post to you on the differences between Jesus and Maharaji. Take care and maybe we can talk later. Have a good turkey day.
Peace!
VP
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 12:30:45 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: Good Will
Message:
Oh, you'll be back all right, maybe not today, but soon and for the rest of your life. HaHAha HA (nefarious laugh)
Just messing with you!

Helen
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 13:17:36 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: Vouching for op
Message:
Hi SHP -
I don't know if you'll see this post or not, but I just read op's posts below, and she IS a real premie. She's been around a long time. You can look at the oldest archives from this site, and she is on there talking about M. Also, she spent a lot of time with M in the early days of DLM (1971-1973?).

Take care,
Katie

P.S. As far as I know, the only 'fake' premies who post here regularly are John Hammond-Smyth (Sir David), and Willi Kranz (Nigel). Both of these guys are pretty humorous and will make it clear that they are joking if someone starts to take them seriously.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 08:37:18 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: What a sham
Message:
Just reading the comments about the ethics of Amtex, Maharaji's second hand book business. A thought crosses my mind. What a sham, what a travesty that the Lord of the Universe is reduced to running these businesses to make a buck. Second hand books, watches, videos, magazines, photos, aeroplane seats etc etc.

This time I have come with more power than ever before and I declare I WILL establish peace in this world. That's why we all joined up and gave our lives back in the early seventies. We didn't join to buy watches or endless videos. And we DID shout it on the streets. 'The Lord has come!'

And now what's left? Enjoyinglife.org and their little internet club of 'nice' words about nice little events. Where's the passion, where's the fervour? Where's the shining premie handing out leaflets with the Lord's face on, to the people on the train? All gone. All lost in the obscure mists of time because the dream never was more than a dream of some young, idealistic people who were conned by a pretend Lord. Best you end it now Maharaji.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 10:32:18 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: What a sham
Message:
Middle east circa 0 BC/AD, on the shore of a pond, a disgruntled man squats with a string and a hooked worm in the water, waiting for a fish to bite:

'What a sham! This charismatic guy comes along and tells me to quit my job and follow him and he's going to show me the kingdom of heaven, so I drop everything like a shmuck and do it. Now here I am trying to catch a fricking fish so I can sell it and pay the tax to get his holier-than-thou ass into some backwater town he wants to con!

(Later that same millenium, same guy): What a sham! I have spent the last 3 years sleeping on the ground and eating raw corn running around listening to this guy spout on about heaven and God and now he's bleeding to death on a cross. I need a drink.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 11:44:11 (EST)
From: Mark
Email: Apple4256@aol.com
To: SHP
Subject: What a sham/a second opinion
Message:
Shp- there is of course another option.
That peace is being administered to our Hotel
here in space in a bit more comprehensive
fashion than Mr Rawat's program. (who you sincerely consider
to be the embodiment of a modern Master or Christ.)

is he or isn't he ?
are you SURE the solution is that linear ?

that is one of the hallmarks of these 'i'm the One ' guys
Expropriating Jesus/Krishna in some fashion with some myth or snippet.Once you even leave your personal elevator, they have you on 'THEIR' turf, in some way. . .

If you are have scientific orientation, read a bit of Gregg Braden's'Awakening to Zero Point' ( or if you're quite adventurous, Kryon.com-amazing predictions/many substantiated - I recommend his Books as well )
If you're a mystic or Van Morrisonite, read the Sedona Journals from your local book store.Or Abraham-Hicks.

Something's definitely happening, and accelerating
and its Happening in a comprehensive fashion.
we are being re-'tuned' as a species.
Books. Movies. Talk-Show TV.Scientific Discoveries.
Options are being offered.

Are you sure Oprah isn't that little boy?
just kidding.Though she has freed up more love
and 'good works' than 'the golden boy'ever did.
Believe me,pro or con, he's small potatoes in the big picture.

it sounds as though you got caught in the savior myth
(welcome to the club) and as long as M displays enough
to trigger your personal Positve Emotion/Devotion button-
you're in for the ride, no matter What cognitive dissonance
you might REALLY be experiencing on this matter.
UNTIL A PREMIE CAN HIT THAT BLISS BUTTON ON THEIR
OWN, there seems to be little option and a great potential loss-
cause they have learned a set of behaviors that will trigger bliss/
release !However, if you want it, its there , available from a myriad of sources besides Guru/Savior systems- and offerered from PURE INTENTION, not economic.
The Post Savior Club is now open. Membership, however, does require your true self. To yourself. No more Brokers.

If you could experience THAT EXPERIENCE differently- without losing your power or being tied up with a fundamentally separative group
and elitist leader, wouldn't you ?
That's what's available to you, and any premie wanting to cash in their Cult chips, but addicted to bliss.
10,001 religions all waiting/following their personal savior/when she was right under his pillow.
There is a better way. . .
call it Enjoying Life As Intended / without editing . . .

Mark
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 12:17:03 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: Really, Mark?
Message:
or if you're quite adventurous, Kryon.com-amazing predictions/many substantiated

Okay, Mark, I bite. What amazing predictions has this 'channeller' made that have been substantiated? All I found was junk like this:

'When Hale Bop came through, it delivered an amazing amount of energy to your planet—to the very dirt of the earth so that these human processes could be transmuted properly. It was needed energy, and we reported it at the time. Now you know where it came from... and why it was needed. The shifting of energy is complex and when even one of you gives intent to move forward and drop the old ways, the old paradigm, and the old karma, the earth absorbs it. Earth changes are part of the grand plan and part of the balance of the New Age. So it should be no shock to you that every single test in this room has already been solved. The balance of the tests are the solutions on the tray. They’re in the NOW, just like your problems are. They’re in your NOW potential—all ready for you. But there are some attributes you should know about because this is not simple.'

I agree with you that SHP can't seem to see his way past some incredibly simplistic myths. He might as well be telling us that the conference table in the other room is the right shape because it worked for King Arthur. That makes SHP outrageously naive and simplistic in my books. But what's THIS stuff you're talking about?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 12:28:47 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I looked a litle further
Message:
So I continued browsing over the Kryon stuff and what do you think I found? A whole lot of products for your consumption, books, tapes, seminars galore. AND a message board whose editorial policy was just like ELK's. Here's one of their rules:

'3. We will eliminate messages where the obvious intent and energy is to upset, stir anger, perpetuate drama, or promote controversy and unrest. This also includes discussion which runs contrary to the stated purpose of this message board, which is to promote spiritual growth and enlightenment through the UPLIFTING of the Human Spirit!'

Mark, I'm once again amazed that a guy with your obvious intelligence can't see through this kind of garbage.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 19:52:33 (EST)
From: Mark
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I looked a litle further
Message:
jim
i think Braden would be more your cup of tea( if you're drinking)
if you do check out Kryon, keep to
life extension, magnetism,gamma rays
and his scientific prediction page
the rest would probably too 'woo-woo' for your tastes/and mine at times.
his books are $12, and he doesn't want my soul, so I can
certainly handle that ante.
(and since the 'Lord' episode
i take my new truth's, as well as my margarita's,
with a bit of salt.)

Also Truman & Pleasantville ( ostensibly both about TV)
seem to eloquently express what's happening on a personal
and collective level, as far as puncturing the self-limitation
-if they do have movies in Canada,you might enjoy them .

By the way, my Scorpio soul exulted over the ENJOYING undercover raid ! it was wonderful. i think that even M had to admire it's Trojan Horse/expose style. I mean you can't talk about the truth all the time,even if its a business,
without enjoying it in all it's forms.

its almost unfair how inviting a target M and so many old
dear friends/followers have become . . .
Mark
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 22:01:00 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: ... and what did I see?
Message:
Mark:

I am mega-skeptical. So, was this business in Rawanda, and Bosnia part of the general tuning up? Is that really the appropriate metaphore? How does it help? It's like what nuclear physists used to complain about crystallographers: 'They get to present any elegant theory that suits their fancy, and no one can present any contrary evidence because the pictures are so hard to interpret.' And, if a theory can't be disproved it's useless. What, exactly, is this about... and what the heck does it have to do with me? And, something about Pleasantville bothers me a great deal. It's roughly the same thing that bothers me about any subliminal ideological advertising. It gets underhandedly 'creative' whenever there's not much evidence to support the diagnosis and prescription. If the ideas were expressed in plain language people would have a tendancy to just say, 'Bull...!' or 'So what???' To me, it just doesn't seem like a tune up.

It is sort of elegant, however, to think that 'nothing that's going on has anything to do with what's REALLY going on.' I mean... how could it?

-Scott
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 22:43:39 (EST)
From: I saw a sham-ster
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: looking at me
Message:
Sorry, I couldn't resist that. One of my children has been reading a book with a rhyme in which goes just like that.

Sir David.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 12:40:27 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: This stuff
Message:
This STUFF Mark is talking about, IMHO, is an example of the plight of man. We've evolved to the point where we know we're here but we haven't figured out, completely, how we got here, or even what makes us tick. Science has made great strides in explaining our origins and how we operate, but the old explanations and superstitions are so deeply ingrained in our cultures, that it's going to take some time before we let go of the old ways we're so attached to. Until then, this kind of popular quack explanation for what's going on is going to appeal to many.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 15:07:05 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Mark
Subject: What a sham/a second opinion
Message:
Hey that's good, Mark. How do I join? I think Mankind is changing rapidly now, due to the increase in global communication bringing forth the global village effect. The Internet is also helping by allowing people to communicae tfreely without large organisations overseeing it.

I think by and large, most people are OK guys but in the past it was often the nasty guys who forced their way into power. But with global person to person communication and satellite TV worldwide the baddies are more easily toppled by the majority of the world who are goodies. But if aliens want to come and give us a hand, they're welcome!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 10:48:38 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: What a sham/a second opinion
Message:
David:

RE: I think Mankind is changing rapidly now, due to the increase in global communication bringing forth the global village effect. The Internet is also helping by allowing people to communicae tfreely without large organisations overseeing it.
I think by and large, most people are OK guys but in the past it was often the nasty guys who forced their way into power. But with global person to person communication and satellite TV worldwide the baddies are more easily toppled by the majority of the world who are goodies. But if aliens want to come and give us a hand, they're welcome!


Interesting theory. I see no reason no conclude that this theory is incorrect, but it's way too early to conclude that you're right. But, what makes you certain that majoritarianism is some sort of insurance. Tocqueville warned of 'tyranny of the majority,' and he was serious. Also take a look at 'The Calculus of Consent' by Buchanan. For instance, there have been lots of dis-empowered people in the past whose motivations are more than a little suspect, and there have been plenty of powerful people who were all-but saints. There was even a French king who was canonized.

I'd like to think you're right, but am not prepared to throw caution to the wind on the assumption that you are. One big caveat a friend pointed out to me recently. If the defining characteristic of post-modernism is 'dialog' then does that not give people skilled in that medium an inherent advantage? What reason do we have to conclude that people with better expressive skills are automatically better people, or that self expression leads to morality (as opposed to hedonism, for instance)? Indeed, we have a great deal of evidence to the contrary. Not discounting the possibility, but I'd like to see a theory behind this that is as convincing as the Madisonian concept of 'cross-cutting alliances and interests' that stabilize democratic rule.

-Scott
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 20:27:08 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Scott T.
Subject: The informed masses
Message:
I agree Scott, that people who do have skills in the new mediums, do have an advantage. Witness the internet and Maharaji. An active group of just a handful of people (us) have created a serious thorn in Maharaji's side. In this Cyberwar Maharaji has so far come off worse because he ignored the new medium and its potential as a threat. Now he has decided to fight back with his enjoyinglife.org. Who do you think is winning this little cyberwar?

I think in this new era of inter-active mediums, the tail will wag the dog. Because information is now more prevailent, leaders will not be able to deceive people so easily and they will have to reflect what the majority want, if they want to stay in power.

For example, Hitler would be unable to prpogate his anti-Jew philosophy to an ignorant Germany in today's switched-on world. He could not lead through misinformation but would be forced to react to the informed masses. I wonder what information is being shared in Iraq now that those people are able to connect to the outside world? Forty years ago, our western leaders could have whipped up an anti Iraq fervour and we may have hated the Iraqi people in the same way that we British used to hate the Germans during the last war. Now people are more informed. We see ordinary Iraqi people talking and working in Iraq via satallite TV. We see they are nice people just like us. this wouldn't have happened before.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 14:24:53 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: The informed masses
Message:
David:

First, I agree that the ex site is winning; both because we have more experience and, more to the point, because we're more transparent.

RE: I think in this new era of inter-active mediums, the tail will wag the dog. Because information is now more prevailent, leaders will not be able to deceive people so easily and they will have to reflect what the majority want, if they want to stay in power.

This seems much more on target than what you said earlier. The only caveat I'd have about this is the tendency for rumors to catch people up. There are not yet many reliable safeguards against the rumor mill. I wonder what impact the internet is having on Iraq? Does the state control the onramps there, or are there any independent ISPs? The military MUST have access. They certainly do in places like Jordan. And, does the open access to information work in the other direction, to correct the misinformation that has become part of the lore of the progressives? The mistaken notion, for instance, that if poor people could vote that would automatically vote liberal. The goofy conspiracy theories of the Christos Society or Oliver Stone. The notion that racial minorities that are no longer subject to de jure descrimination still need special status in order to compete. The point being that on open society is probably not exactly what anyone actually wants, but: 'If you try, sometimes you get what you need.'

-Scott
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 22:02:09 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: What a sham/a second opinion
Message:
Something's definitely happening, and accelerating
and its Happening in a comprehensive fashion.
we are being re-'tuned' as a species.


Mark,

Are you sure about this? How sure? Spell it out. How do you know you're not just indulging your imagination a bit? Here's what I think: there's a direct correlation between how much you squint at an image and how many strange things you see there.

You can suspend your critical faculties and skepticism more, and thereby stay 'open' to all sorts of things (like 'channelers'. I've got to tell you, that Sedona Journal is the biggest invitation to squint and squint hard I've ever seen.) or you can open your eyes, scrutinize, and let the chips fall where they will.

Love you anyway....

Robyn..I mean, Jim
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 12:14:35 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: What a story!
Message:
That's a pretty dramatic post, SHP. But what's the point you're trying to make by it? Historically, there's not much known about Jesus outside of he was a teacher who rubbed the Roman authorities the wrong way and was crucified because of it, a standard practice of the day. What he actually 'spouted', only a handful of biblical scholars know (I think. Maybe they don't even know). The rest of us can only guess what the real deal about Jesus was. As far as your fisherman goes, did such a fellow really exist? Aren't you just making up this little story for dramatic effect? Why? What does it prove?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 13:54:20 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: What a story!
Message:
Jesus is proclaimed as telling people to love their enemies, turn the other cheek and love one another. He is also believed to have told the parable of the lost sheep and how the sheperd searched high and low for it. He is said to have stated that whatever you do to these (the unfortunates of the world) you do to me. He also had a few things to say about child abuse too.

I don't see how Maharaji fits into this vein, in any way, shape or form. If Jesus did exist, he was a very different person and on a very different mission to the self proclaimed Lord, Maharaji.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 21:00:56 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: SHP
Subject: Mickey! - can you help!
Message:
It's an emergency case, I fear :)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 21:06:34 (EST)
From: sorry, I meant
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: to include this:
Message:
Middle east circa 0 BC/AD, on the shore of a pond, a disgruntled man squats with a string and a hooked worm in the water, waiting for a fish to bite:

'What a sham! This charismatic guy comes along and tells me to quit my job and follow him and he's going to show me the kingdom of heaven, so I drop everything like a shmuck and do it. Now here I am trying to catch a fricking fish so I can sell it and pay the tax to get his holier-than-thou ass into some backwater town he wants to con!

(Later that same millenium, same guy): What a sham! I have spent the last 3 years sleeping on the ground and eating raw corn running around listening to this guy spout on about heaven and God and now he's bleeding to death on a cross. I need a drink

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 22:23:39 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: sorry, I meant
Subject: to include this:
Message:
Well, our little friend is certainly sure of his biblical knowledge, and can even read the minds of the characters in the gospel stories, even though there is no account of what they were thinking. Remember, he does gain his insight through intuition, so how can we argue with him?
As far as I can tell, the fisherman who became the infamous Apostles (not the devotional band from Atlanta, but the 1st century Palestinian guys) used nets to fish, they were'nt known as anglers. Further down the page, in another thread, our biblical exegete, Brother SHP claims that Jesus was a wealthy kinda guy, so I'm sure he could find a place for the boys to sleep; they wouldn't have spent all their time sleeping on the ground and munching on raw corn (did they raise corn in 1st century Palestine? I thought that maize was something from this continent).
Now, according to the gospel of John (which does not correspond with the three synoptic gospels), the boys returned to fishing after the crucifixion and resurrection, and while fishing (using NETS) they saw Jesus on the beach, giving them fishing advice and cooking them breakfast. According to the stories (in all the gospels and Acts) something happened which made them all carry on the work of bringing about the Kingdom of Heaven (or Reign of God)
rather than sitting around pouting as our exegete intuited. Uh, what was the question?
Here endeth the rant.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 22:46:09 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: fascinating stuff,
Message:
Mickey (no irony). Thanks.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 21:39:48 (EST)
From: Curious
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Why?
Message:
Dear everyone

I read here from time to time, not a lot as am very busy so probably am not aware of all you say so bear with me for that. I have knowledge and am happy with what it does for me but understand that you are not and that you feel very let down by your past experiences with the whole thing. What I don’t understand is why you persist with terrible hatred that comes with this site. I know you’ll say that it’s to warm people etc. but really lots of people have had bad experiences with many things and just don’t hold on to them for so long and with such passion. I’m just intrigued by what it is that keeps you all here and why you can’t let go. You seem to spend so much time here that you might as well still be in ‘Maharaji’s world’. To be honest you almost put people off becoming exs as it seems that life after doesn’t seem to ever truly break away from him. I found this site at a time when I was practicing knowledge but not really giving it too much time or attention - just the bare minimum really and - you’ll laugh at this! - you scared me so much that I might end up in such a disillusioned state that I started really putting in effort and got back on track! So in a perverse sense thanks for that! Seriously though I do realize that your experience has been different to mine. I’ve had dealings with Maharaji and have not found him to be at all like you describe. I’ve always found him to be caring and open and sincere and despite what you think he really does believe in what he’s doing. However your experience is yours so fair enough. As I said curiosity got the better of me so I just have to know why you can’t let go of this and move on. And I read all about the ashram stuff, I don’t belittle that but it was almost 20 years ago & I just can’t help feeling that there might be a better way for you to deal with this. Hate and revenge never bring the promised result. There’ll always be people who like Maharaji and there’ll always be people who don’t. You won’t change that. I grew up surrounded by religious intolerance and hatred and it’s a one way street. We don’t have to accept eachother’s beliefs but we can respect them. Believe me if you could have experienced the end result of some of the things I’ve seen, all of this would be put in a proper perspective.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 22:16:01 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Curious
Subject: That's easy
Message:
Curious,

I do this for several reasons:

1) It's fun. Yes, yes, it's fun. It's nice milk chocolate, it's semi-sweet but it does have its flavour. Who else gets to infiltrate a real, live cult publicity organ like we did with our recent prank? Did you read those posts? Don't you think it was a gas writing them and watching Maharaji's apologists censor the hell out of them? Hey man, admit it, that kind of stuff can be exhilarating.

Similarly, did you read AE's spoof on Maharaji? Tell me that doesn't look like a good time. As a lawyer I know the particular relish one feels advancing an irrefutable argument. It just feels good, you know. Kind of like the thrill of righteousness. Maybe it's toxic in the long run but, bit by bit, it's a certain pleasure. Well, us ex's are in such a sweet position ethically, it's enough to make one's head spin.

Think about it. We've all paid our dues so we have the right to speak up. Maharaji's done absolutely nothing to answer us so we have the right to keep talking. His claims were arguably the strongest claims ever made in the hsitory of this planet! Think about it -- 'Lord of the Universe', 'come with more power than ever before'. I mean how're you going to top that? Oh, I know: his promise to bring peace to the world. I mean this is absolute.

And then to hear him slither away from all of it as he gets richer each year. Well, if there's such a thing as an easy target. Maharaji is like a target for beginners. Righteous Indignation 101, if you will.

As you know, as you MUST know, you defy common sense when you say:

I’ve always found him to be caring and open and sincere and despite what you think he really does believe in what he’s doing.

But that's alright. Hey, man, it's your life. If you wanted you could even explain what you mean by 'open and sincere' and we could have some fun with that. See, it's people like you that make this as enjoyable as it is. That's one reason.

2) It's good work. For every person who might actually turn back to Maharaji because they dislike the temperment of those who question him (and you're the first person I've ever heard from making such a claim) many, many more say just the opposite. I've been thanked by lots of people myself as have many of the other ex's here. Check out the page and you'll see how that goes. Some people care about the truth, you know? Some people have really suffered with this little fat, prick stuck in their head for a couple of decades. Sure, I'm thinking about him but I've got him just where I want him now. I don't pray to him, I don't fear him. So, instead I ridicule him. Trust me, its' better.

3) I'm vindictive. I won't rest pursuing him in one form or another until he's stopped. Don't worry for me, at least, about the richness or balance of my life. I'm doing fine. This is just one those interests people develop. I guess I could be collecting stamps. Instead I'm pestering a fraud who once hoodwinked me. Personally, the thought of simply letting up and letting Maharaji carry on unperturbed doesn't sit well. You know, I might change my mind one day. I might just throw in the towel and say 'enough'. But I haven't reached that spot yet. That's about all I can say about that.

As far as I understand myself, those are my reasons.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 12:37:16 (EST)
From: Curious
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: That's easy
Message:
Jim

Thanks for answering.

If it all feels good for you fine. Just a few comments.

The point you raise about peace is really one of difference in interpretation. Through Maharaji’s teaching and the experience of knowledge I have found and feel inner peace and as far as I’m concerned that experience is available to everyone in the world if they want it. Maharaji offers a path to peace but he doesn’t ram it down people’s throats and we all have free choice so it’s just not possible for anyone (or God if you believe in one) to wave a magic wand and say ‘let there be peace’. Knowledge offers a possibility and a support but not a magic pill. For me getting to a stage where I feel at peace was hard work and takes continuous effort and self examination. Practicing really helps me and it does take effort. My comments about how your site helped me were not because I disliked your temperaments but because I once had all those feelings (not related to Maharaji but to a different life situation) and it reminded me of how bad I felt then that’s all.

'And then to hear him slither away from all of it as he gets richer each year.'

He hasn’t backed off from this at all, he still offers peace, he still says all the same things that he ever said. As for wealth, this is a pointless argument and no matter what he does here you’ll criticize him. If he had nothing you’d call him a waster. If he didn’t have a private income you’d say he was living off ‘us’. And when he does have a private income you say that that’s tacky - as if being a master somehow implies that you automatically have to adopt a certain lifestyle of austerity. That to me is a religious concept and regardless of what a lot of people tried to make it in the 70’s knowledge isn’t a religion. And before you raise the issue people still contribute to run their local video programmes but that money does not go to Maharaji.

'If you wanted you could even explain what you mean by 'open and sincere' and we could have some fun with that.'

'open and sincere' refers to him privately and publically. The private side is private but publically he does answer all the questions you raise if you spend time and listen to him. (& I know you don’t want to do that so I will try to explain a little). I heard about most of what you talk about on this site (the bits that are true.) from Maharaji in public events. He often talks about what went on in the past and how as soon as he could he simplified everything and sacked all the people who were becoming caught up in the power trip of it all. Also he was a young boy. Just 13 when all this stuff started in the west, no matter how capable he was on a teaching level imo he certainly did not have the life experience to manage a lot of adults some of whom I would say were very ‘out there’, maybe well intentioned but very misguided. I think that was a very difficult time and if I had been there then Jim maybe I wouldn’t have been able to put up with the people around him either.

'See, it's people like you that make this as enjoyable as it is. That's one reason.'

This is the aspect of this site that works against you. Be vindictive if you like but if you’re going to argue your case use truth not hearsay and speculation. Just what did Maharaji do to you personally that was against your will? You were a willing participant while you were there and from what I see of you now you have a very keen intellect so I just can’t imagine you taking any ideas on board that deep down you didn’t want to. People make mistakes as they go through life and you obviously see your involvement with knowledge and Maharaji as a big mistake. But if you feel you made a mistake then why beat yourself up about it and why blame everyone else? I was very into blame and vengance until I recognised that I had a part to play in some of the situations that hurt me and the situations over which I had no control continued to hurt only for as long as I fed them.

Knowledge works for me. It didn't work for you. As for the rest we just have to agree to differ.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 12:53:11 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Curious
Subject: Magic pill
Message:
Through Maharaji’s teaching and the experience of knowledge I have found and feel inner peace and as far as I’m concerned that experience is available to everyone in the world if they want it. Maharaji offers a path to peace but he doesn’t ram it down people’s throats and we all have free choice so it’s just not possible for anyone (or God if you believe in one) to wave a magic wand and say ‘let there be peace’. Knowledge offers a possibility and a support but not a magic pill.

All M is saying is focus on your breath (the third technique). Just focus on your breath. Breathe in, breathe out. Breathe in, breathe out. That's his answer. That's his recipe for bliss. If that's not a 'magic pill' (which it really isn't), I don't know what is.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 13:01:57 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Magic pill
Message:
Hey, Jerry,
If you find out what is, let me know and I'll help you market it, OK? For fifty percent of the profits, that is.
JUST KIDDING
VP
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 17:10:53 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Magic pill
Message:
I prefer Clonapin myself. :)
I think Jim expressed quite well the sort of 'merry prankster' feeling that comes from posting and reading here.
At first it was because I felt betrayed and needed to talk and read. Needed it badly. And I found some wonderful people. Then I discovered this whole fun side to it. You either get it or you don't I guess - thet's the generic 'you' , not you VP.
It beats the boring videos and junk of last year. Oh does it ever!

I am in quite the reminiscent mood at the moment, as another Bday is looming up for M. Wonder if he'll do the Long Beach thing?
I doubt it, it must be embarrassing to have so many empty seats and he could use the money spent on that big hall for a mink steering wheel cover complete with Maserati, or whatnot.

Course the reason I was given for maybe no Long Beach was that M
was 'worried for the safety of HIS (not the ownership pronoun) premies. Yeh, I could tell I was just being so cared for last year as the QM party raged on, and as I walked to a shuttle stop alone in a bad area. hmm...

Curious, I am in doubt that you really are curious. Is it perhaps you think you u are showing those who may come here how Negative and strange and addicted we are. You are using you supposed curiosity to show all that is wrong with us and this site. It's kind of transparent don't you think? I don't know, I could be off there, just thinking..that thing we are allowed to do here.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 17:56:05 (EST)
From: Curious
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Magic pill
Message:
'Curious, I am in doubt that you really are curious. Is it perhaps you think you u are showing those who may come here how Negative and strange and addicted we are. You are using you supposed curiosity to show all that is wrong with us and this site. It's kind of transparent don't you think? I don't know, I could be off there, just thinking..that thing we are allowed to do here.'

No Selene. I saw people murdered for having beliefs the other faction didn’t agree with. Think about that one and how easy that might be to deal with when it’s some one you’re close to. Intolerance will always fascinate me. I’ve seen enough of it and I suppose I mistakenly thought that I might be able to reach you. I just hope the thought processes you pride yourself as having will be so strong if the really ugly side of life comes knocking at your door.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 18:06:34 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Curious
Subject: Magic mirror
Message:
No Selene. I saw people murdered for having beliefs the other faction didn’t agree with. Think about that one and how easy that might be to deal with when it’s some one you’re close to. Intolerance will always fascinate me. I’ve seen enough of it and I suppose I mistakenly thought that I might be able to reach you. I just hope the thought processes you pride yourself as having will be so strong if the really ugly side of life comes knocking at your door.

Curious,

Your moral superiority is refreshing. And from a premie, no doubt! What a bland surprise.

I've got two questions for you:

1) How tolerant are you of people who believe that Maharaji's brother, Satpal (Bal Bahagwan Ji), is the true master?

2) How tolerant do you think Maharaji is of his brother's claim to the family business?

These are simple, simple questions. Please answer them responsively.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 18:09:16 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Curious
Subject: threats?
Message:
I wondered when I'd get threatened here.

It seems to happen more often than one would expect, from people who claim their lives have been so transformed by peace and bliss.

I don't know what happened to you, or the person close to you.
But I am very sorry if something bad did happen and someone was murdered. Of course it would devastate me and no 'thought process' would help. I just wouldn't be helped by M either. I learned that too, in my past with some difficult times.
Actually, I am glad you came here and shared some thoughts.
And really, I meant it when I said I hang around because it's fun sometimes. And I like to write, And read, and I find the people here to be very creative and intelligent.

Take care.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 18:15:42 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: threats?
Message:
Selene,

I didn't read Curious that way. Mind you, I went back and re-read his post and can see how it might indeed be construed as a veiled threat of some sort. However, given his reference to his own experience, I think he's just extrapolating from that. Really, I wouldn't consider this a threat at all. I'm sure Curious would be more than happy to confirm what I'm saying without further prodding, right Curious?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 18:20:29 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: threats?
Message:
Thanks J im
I really couldn't tell if the person was recounting a personal experience or issueing me a dire warning, or both.
Yes, clarification would be welcome. I am hungover and edgy as is!
(bad girl last nite, too much wine)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 19:41:03 (EST)
From: Curious
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Absolutely no threats!
Message:
Of course that wasn't a threat. I was refering to my own experience. If you think that at this stage in my life I would think that threats, or hatred or any of those feelings work then you missed the point of my previous posts.

Re Jim's point. I have no problem with anyone following whoever or whatever they choose and the only point I am making is that knowledge did help me and is what worked for me when nothing else could. If it didn't work for you fine. All I'm saying is that just because something didn't work for you doesn't mean it never works for anyone else.

As for Maharaji I couldn't tell you what he thinks, that's his family and his business but going by how he generally views things it's unlikely that he would be into hostile feelings. And before you say it - he said he had enemies and not that he was anyone's enemy. If you wanted to come back in the morning - which I know you don't - he says his door is always open regardless of where you've been.

Like you Selene I like to have fun and all that stuff but not at the expense of others. Despite all our differences we have had a common experiece but we look at it in different ways. There isn't a right ot wrong answer to any of this and all I would hope for is that if we were ever to meet that we could talk to eachother and leave differences to one side. That to me is peace. Everyone trying to get along but not necessarily everyone being the same or having the same beliefs or opinions.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 19:59:16 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Curious
Subject: Answer the question, please
Message:
Curious,

After your lecture about tolerance I asked you if you were tolerant to wards Bal Bhagwan Ji and if you thought Maharaji is.

Again, what are your answers?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 17:50:19 (EST)
From: Curious
Email: None
To: Jim, Selene & Jerry
Subject: Answer the question, please
Message:
Jim Selene & Jerry

Jim

I thought I did answer you I said: I have no problem with anyone following whoever or whatever they choose (I add for clarification Bal Bhagwan Ji included) and the only point I am making is that knowledge did help me and is what worked for me when nothing else could. If it didn't work for you fine. All I'm saying is that just because something didn't work for you doesn't mean it never works for anyone else.

As for Maharaji I couldn't tell you what he thinks, that's his family and his business but going by how he generally views things it's unlikely that he would be into hostile feelings. And before you say it - he said he had enemies and not that he was anyone's enemy. If you wanted to come back in the morning - which I know you don't - he says his door is always open regardless of where you've been.

Jerry & Selene

Apologies if you saw this as a cheap shot that wasn’t the intention. By discussing my own experience I am not in any way assuming that you may not have experienced equally bad things. I suppose I just misinterpreted Selene’s comments as being dismissive of what I was trying to say so in a sense I interpreted that as a cheap shot. She said:

'Curious, I am in doubt that you really are curious. Is it perhaps you think you u are showing those who may come here how Negative and strange and addicted we are. You are using you supposed curiosity to show all that is wrong with us and this site. It's kind of transparent don't you think? I don't know, I could be off there, just thinking..that thing we are allowed to do here'.

I though Selene meant that I was not allowing myself to think and that if I was thinking correctly then I’d have been able to deal with it. So I over reacted and tried to explain where I was coming from to illustrate just why it is that intolerance interests me. Using life experiences is a way of communicating, it was not meant to be seen as a weapon an excuse or a justification, just as a clarification of where I was coming from and offered to show that I am trying to have a conversation here and not an attempt to show anyone up or use one-upmanship.

If I was 'in the midst of torture and horror', at one point in my life, it’s over now and I never suppose now that everyone else is or was 'playing in the sunshine'. I admit that I did think that when I was upset because I think its natural when you’re having a bad time to believe that no one else understands. I don’t think that now. And just because I do practice knowledge every day does not mean that I float around on a cloud immune or insensitive to all the horrible things that happen in the world. Through knowledge I can handle it and am more able to deal with it but I still feel it. I know I can’t change the world but I can change me. I can’t feed every hungry child or rescue every ill treated animal. My personal love is for animals and I work a lot with animal rescue etc. It’s just horrific what people can do to animals and I’d love to see all the energy we pour into hate in this world channeled more into helping other people and animals to have a chance at a decent life. Oops I feel an animal rescue speech coming on so I better stop before you accuse me of going off topic
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 18:06:27 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Curious
Subject: to Curious - off topic
Message:
Hi Curious - Helen and I were just talking about this via e-mail.

I also love animals very much. Animal welfare and animal rights are my primary social issue. I really admire you for being able to work in that field - I have not been able to do this because I get too depressed and become bitter about human beings. I do send a lot of money to different humane groups, to help the people like you who can provide the actual on-scene help. And I try to do what I can in other ways to help people (you know that abused people abuse others, especialy animals) and animals (vegetarian, cruelty-free products, adopting as many animals as I can, etc.).

I guess I just wanted to say thanks. It's really nice to hear from a premie who does actual work for other beings besides Maharaji. I do think a lot of premies use Maharaji as a shield against the bad things that happen in the world - I know I did when I was a premie. I just figured that Maharaji would take care of things, so working for him was like working for the whole world. Obviously I don't think this is true anymore. Anyway, this may be a minority opinion, but if Knowledge is helping you do this most difficult work, then more power to you.

Respectfully yours,
Katie
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 18:51:41 (EST)
From: Curious
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: off topic
Message:
Thanks for replying Katie

What I do is only a drop in the ocean, but to see a little kitten, cat, puppy or dog who has been badly abused brought round and taught to trust again is indescribable. There are so many people who do such a lot in little ways that makes it worthwhile.

On a funny side the worst thing I ever did was to rehome this beautiful pregnant cat (I couldn't take her I already had three) who went on to give birth to 5 kittens and then before they had a chance to neuter her she got pregnant again and had 6 kittens. If you want to know what guilt feels like visit that home as me! I had a terrible time trying to find homes for all those cats.

Glad to meet another animal lover.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 19:10:58 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Curious
Subject: off topic
Message:
Dear Curious -
I agree with you about the lot of people who do a little in small ways. Sometimes I forget that and feel like people are just awful in general.

My sister, who is very concerned with child abuse (and also with animal abuse, and is also an ex-premie) has a really good attitude about it. She has helped me a lot. She sponsors two children overseas through one of those groups that does that, and she also tutors kids at her children's school. I think her philosophy is to look at the positive and not to try and do it all. When I get depressed about the enormity of the problem, I think about people I know who go the extra mile and are really kind to animals - people like you, really - and it makes me feel better - like there are more drops in the bucket. I'm glad to know there are people like you out there.

I can understand how you feel about the cat who had the kittens, but at least you rescued her in the first place, and I'm assuming that they did eventually get her spayed (a lot of people just don't bother, as you know.) I hope you don't feel too bad about it - it certainly doesn't sound like the worst thing anyone ever did to me.

Glad to be able to connect with you on this level. That is one thing about this site that I really like - I have met all kinds of premies, and have overcome a lot of my prejudice against premies as a group. We will have to disagree about Maharaji, but you sound like a really good person.

Take care,
Katie

P.S. I have three cats too. Two of them are rescued (one just recently - she was abandoned at my landlady's place), and one was taken out of a home where some of the other cats had FeLV (he was a kitten and didn't have it yet, so he can live with our other cats). Drop in the bucket, but at least it's something.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 22:43:17 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Curious
Subject: Now I'M curious
Message:
Caring for these unfortunate kittens, cats, puppies, dogs, bringing them around to trust again, how would you describe that feeling compared to the feeling you get from practicing K, more rewarding, less rewarding, the same? I'm the one who's curious, now. You see, I never got much out of meditation. Good feelings for me ALWAYS depended upon some kind of interaction with something or somebody. I can't fathom you having as rewarding an experience in meditation as you do helping these poor animals.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 20:20:27 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Curious
Subject: I forgot to say 'honestly'
Message:
Jim

I thought I did answer you I said: I have no problem with anyone following whoever or whatever they choose (I add for clarification Bal Bhagwan Ji included) and the only point I am making is that knowledge did help me and is what worked for me when nothing else could. If it didn't work for you fine. All I'm saying is that just because something didn't work for you doesn't mean it never works for anyone else.

As for Maharaji I couldn't tell you what he thinks, that's his family and his business but going by how he generally views things it's unlikely that he would be into hostile feelings. And before you say it - he said he had enemies and not that he was anyone's enemy. If you wanted to come back in the morning - which I know you don't - he says his door is always open regardless of where you've been.


You're a liar, Curious. A bald-faced liar. First, let's talk about you, then we can deal with the Hamster. You seem to suggest that you bear Bal Bhagwan Ji no ill will, despite the fact that he tried to completely strip Maharaji of everything, his wealth, his reputation, his entire cult. That has no effect on you. Hey, it's not your problem, right? If you saw Bal Bhagwan Ji in an airport lounge, both of you stuck on layovers for a few hours, you'd buy the guy a drink, have a few laughs without the slightest feeling that of either resentment or the fact that you wre betraying your hamster. THAT'S ABSOLUTELY UNBELIEVEABLE!

Now, Maharaji. You call yourself 'Curious'? What a joke! Try 'Ostrich' perhaps. Alright, since you don't have the integrity to explore this question thoroughly on your own, let me walk you through it a little more specifically. Prempal and Satpal (Maharaji and Guru Maharaj Ji) fought each other no-holds-barred over the assets of DLM and the rights to dad's family business. They didn't settle, they went to trial. The parties were so acrimonious that the judge gave them both shit for being an embarrassment to India and the antithesis of spiritual.

Are you telling me that Maharaji was never once a little 'intolerant' of his brother's claims?

Go fuck yourself.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 23:04:39 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Curious
Subject: Cheap shot, Curious
Message:
How do you know what Selene has seen or not seen in her life, that you can sound so derogatory in your presumptions that she'd fall apart if she saw the 'ugly side of life'? She may have seen as much, if not more, than you have. It never ceases to irritate me, these cheap shots that premies take to get an upper hand in an argument. It shows me that you haven't learned anything of value from M. If you want to make a case for the advantages there are to being a premie, you and virtually every other premie who post on this forum do a horrendous job. I'd say there's nothing of value to be learned from M, other than how to give lip service to sweet platitudes and take cheap shots in arguments.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 11:49:14 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Cheap shot, Curious
Message:
Jerry my hero!
Thanks. It's true, some people will do that here, when they feel like they need to win a point. Make it sound like they were there in the midst of torture and horror, while all we did was play in the sunshine. I've seen that before.
It occurred to me to tell some stories back at Curious, but than I've been there done that, it's boring and I don't need to prove that stuff anyway.
Geez if we weren't rabid, I'd sign it
Love,
Selene

guess I still can just we can't bite.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 13:33:05 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Curious
Subject: That's a lie
Message:
I declare I will establish peace in this world.

Curious,

Above is a simple statement. Not unlike another where Maharaji is quoted in a picture in an old Divine Light (Vol.2 No6 - Page 5 Published by Divine Light Mission - March 1973) as saying:

I swear on the Bible that I will establish peace in the world.

Another simple statement.

Then there's Maharaji's DUO Proclamation:

Whereas, Knowledge of the aim of human life is being revealed to all people of the world by the living Perfect Master ....

An unqualified description of a work in porgress, if you will.

So your comment:

The point you raise about peace is really one of difference in interpretation.

won't get you where you want to go, I'm afraid. No reasonable, fair-minded person in the world would dispute the meaning on these sentences. Believe me, if you've lurked here in the past, you'll know that you're just starting to walk down the same futile path of denial many other premies have taken:

'He didn't say it
But,
If he did,
He didn't mean it,
But,
If he did,
He didn't mean it the way YOU think he did,
But,
If he did,
He's entitled to change his mind
Or,
I'm entitled to stop answering your questions.'

Try to be a little more honest, would you please? (Take a look at Golden Oldie's posts on the uncensored premie forum to see how it's done:

http://www.paradise-web.com/plus_le/plus.mirage?who=premieforum)

Really, for you to say:

He hasn’t backed off from this at all, he still offers peace, he still says all the same things that he ever said.

is all the difference of night and day. Now are you going to straighten up and fly right or not?

The private side is private but publically he does answer all the questions you raise if you spend time and listen to him. (& I know you don’t want to do that so I will try to explain a little). I heard about most of what you talk about on this site (the bits that are true.) from Maharaji in public events.

You're an asshole. End of discussion.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 13:42:15 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Curious
Subject: That's easy
Message:
Through Maharaji’s teaching and the experience of knowledge I have found and feel inner peace and as far as I’m concerned that experience is available to everyone in the world if they want it.

Certainly you are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine. The 'inner peace' I experience and did experience as a premie, I discovered, had nothing to do with Maharaji. The inner experience is still there friend. In fact, I found that Maharaji just got in the way. And following him certainly wasn't worth the very, very high cost involved in terms of the damage it did to my life and to a lives of many other people. And Maharaji has not even acknowledged, let alone taken any responsiblity, for that damage. So, you can see how your 'open and sincere' praise of the master is slightly diminished by the experience many other people have had with him.

By the way, I have also spent time around Maharaji, and sometimes he did seem open and sincere, other times he seemed angry, vindictive, greedy, frustrated, outragiously materialistic, profoundly unhappy, pissed of and maybe just a tad sadistic. Maybe these are mood swings due to drug and alcohol consumption, I don't know. But the absolute worst thing about him, in my opinion, is his complete uncarring attitude towards his devotees, thousands of whom financed his ability to live like a king.

As for wealth, this is a pointless argument and no matter what he does here you’ll criticize him.

Absolutely specious argument, curioius. I'm not surprised though, it's the same one I made years ago when people asked me why Maharaji lived the luxurious lifestyle he did, especially when he directed thousands of his followers to live lives of poverty, chastity and obedience. But it's only someone who is losing the argument, has no way to explain why he is so rich, who says the argument is 'pointless.' Bullshit, I say.

His obvious priority for a fablulously wealthy lifestyle, coupled with his lower priority to 'spread this knowledge' says a lot about what Maharaji is into. Actions speak a lot louder than words, as they say. He has been a failure at doing what he said he would do, spread knowledge, and bring peace to the entire world. But he has been immensely successful in accumulating wealth for himself. Tell, me what does that say about his priorities?

Maharaji has made huge sums of money by people sending money directly to him in Malibu, through checks written directly to him. That went on for years. Everytime he did a darshan line he raised up to $250,000 cash for himself. For many years the distinction between him and DLM was a JOKE. Money to DLM went directly to him. Maybe that's been cleaned up now, because it's illegal under the IRS rules, but M gets his money still from the premies, even if it's indirectly now.

And I think what you might see as 'vindictive' others might see as telling the truth. Certainly, you only get ONE side of the story from Maharaji, and the premies, who do not tolerate dissent of any kind. So, yes, ex-premies who are vocal, serve a public service, in my opinion. It allows people to hear both sides and make up their own minds.

Yes, my involvement with Maharaji was a big mistake. I freely admit that. But I followed him for 10 years, was celibate for 10 years, because I believed M was the incarnation of god. He presented himself as the Lord of the Universe. Maybe you now say he made a big mistake doing that. I don't know if it was a mistake or very calculated. But in any event, thousands of people believed he was god and trashed their lives to follow him. I admit that was a big mistake on my part to believe his lies and to do that. But has Maharaji admitted HIS mistake? Has he taken ANY responsbility? What kind of a 'master', what kind of a human being, has such a big ego that he can't even do that? And why would you follow a 'master' who has so little integrity?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 16:03:43 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: GO, JW (nt)
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 18:04:33 (EST)
From: Mira
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: That's easy
Message:
Hey,haven't you all forgotten something? Take a step back and look at this world. Am I , are you contributing to some sort of global harmony? Isn't that why any of us first came to Maharaji? Didn't we see someone who was doing something tangible about bringing peace to the world. We're all still here on this planet, living together on this swirly blue marble hanging in space. Doesn't your breath tell you anything? It's your gift, take it, appreciate it. Endless arguments and recriminations against someone who once showed you something useful are pointless. Will it all matter in the end anyway? You have been shown. You can't lose it, so shut up whining kids. Let's live together. If Maharaji wants to make an effort in his way , why should he be stopped? How many people in this world live only for hatred and destruction? Take a good hard look at your own selves. Do you make an effort to establish peace in your world every day? When you are really in need, all the words go and the breath saves you. You know that. Hey spoiled Western kids, take your gift and play. Remember your sweet hearts. Remember we're all here together. Enjoy!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 18:28:37 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mira
Subject: That's stupid
Message:
When you are really in need, all the words go and the breath saves you.

How dumb are we today, Mira baby? Give me one instance in the entire history of creation where the breath has saved someone. Come on, sweetie, just one.

Isn't that why any of us first came to Maharaji? Didn't we see someone who was doing something tangible about bringing peace to the world.

Yes, idiot, we were extremely wrong now weren't we? We THOUGHT we saw someone doing something tangible etc. What we really saw was just another cult. Big difference.

Tell me, did you and Keith find each other in a new age slow learners class? Go fuck yourself.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 23:16:39 (EST)
From: Bruce
Email: freedom@universal.net.au
To: Mira
Subject: To Mira and Curious
Message:
Dear Mira (and Curious),

Well said!!!

I've just spent some time with a premie who has just come back from Nepal and India.

I've been there myself a lot, and these guys are so poor that even 50cents is a lot of money.

Maharaji is putting a lot of energy into establising centres around the whole region so that he can have events in reach of these people who cannot travel. Hardly something anyone would do if their motive was to make money, as these twits seem to think.

Your comment reminded me of something I noticed the first time I really travelled. So many people, and each one just as important
and worthy of Maharaji's time as me or any Westerner. Probably a lot of these guys haven't even been out of America.

I wonder how many of them are demanding apologies from Maharaji. What a mob of spoilt, Western brats.!!!

Regards,
Bruce
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 01:37:31 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bruce
Subject: Bruce's cowardice
Message:
God! These premies demand respect but they act so cowardly. Please, if you haven't already, go to the uncensored premie forum (the virtually ignored one created by David but given over to CD, a card-carrying cult member). There, read all the correspondence between Bruce and Golden Oldie (as well as Katie's sharp comments). Note how Bruce, like every other captured mind in this carzy cult, begs off any further discussion when he starts to get cornered. I think it's abundantly fair to say that Golden Oldie simply skates circles around him. No wonder he split.

But then where does he show up? Here, of all places! Here comes Bruce to once again start something he can't finish. Lordie, Lordie, LORDIE! Have you robbed each and every one of your true devotees of any scintilla of integrity still hanging on thier atrohpied backbones?

Anyway, specifics. Bruce says this:

Maharaji is putting a lot of energy into establising centres around the whole region so that he can have events in reach of these people who cannot travel. Hardly something anyone would do if their motive was to make money, as these twits seem to think.

To which I have a simple, simple question. Bruce, do you think Maharaji makes a profit on these trips? Yes or no? Bear in mind that Maharaji's finances are completely secret (FOR NOW, MAHARAJI, FOR NOW). But speculate with me, will you? Maharaji spends a certain sum dragging his hamster-preening crew and his greasy, fat ass over to India. A lot, maybe even most of his followers there don't have much money. I'll grant you all that. Still, tell me, do you think these people give him nothing? Tell me, what do you think Maharaji rakes in at these events. Hm? And how about product sales? Are you saying that 80,000 Indians don't pick up a few souvenirs? And what about the video sales worldwide after one of these events? Don't their exotic locales make them instant bestsellers?

Now that's all on the obvious level, Bruce. I really don't see you as someone capable of looking deeper than that. However, pretend for amoment that you are a full-spectrum human being and not just a captured mind. Are you familiar with the term 'loss leader'? Don't you think that sometimes Maharaji might indeed play up his earnest desire to spread this 'wonderful gift' just to quell a few of your own niggling doubts? I mean you're not really that hard to satisfy on tha count, are you? Still, don't you think it's kind of cool for him to play the part a bit?

Hey, for all we know, Maharaji's just trying to piss on one of his brother's fence posts. Ever think about THAT, dumpkopff?

Bruce, there are motives and motives. You're only squinting at this picture so I don't expect you to see anything really. Some day you might actually open your eyes. Until then....

Oh yeah, I almost forgot. You said:

So many people, and each one just as important
and worthy of Maharaji's time as me or any Westerner.


How do you know this?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 21:52:45 (EST)
From: Bruce
Email: freedom@universal.net au
To: Jim
Subject: Jim's usual bullshit
Message:
Jim,

Since it was me who stuck my nose into your smelly little playpen this time, I'll refute some of your dumb assertions.

To which I have a simple, simple question. Bruce, do you think Maharaji makes a profit on these trips? Yes or no?

No, I don't think he makes a profit at all by going to India. In fact, he makes a loss. As far as I know, events and videos in poor countries are subsidised by the wealthier countries.

And what about the video sales worldwide after one of these events? Don't their exotic locales make them instant bestsellers?
No. Most premies don't go for the videos in Hindi. I like them, but I don't buy them.

Hey, for all we know, Maharaji's just trying to piss on one of his brother's fence posts. Ever think about THAT, dumpkopff?

I don't think he'd bother. He's interested in people getting Knowledge, not paying people back or wasting time on people who only want to fullfill their own agendas. This includes you, I suspect.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot. You said:

So many people, and each one just as important
and worthy of Maharaji's time as me or any Westerner.

How do you know this?


I thought that human equality, regardless of race or position was a qiven.Apparently you don't think so. So we can racist to your list of endaearing qualities, can we?

And another thing, your fascination for Golden Oldie is curious.
There's a few things that have never quite added up to me about Goldie, and somehow I wouldn't be surprised to find that he is actually one of you ex-prems, perhaps you yourself, Jim.

You see, after your little trick with ELK, even his and your denials have no credibility.

Bruce
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 22:33:32 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bruce
Subject: Jim's usual bullshit
Message:
[Bruce said]So many people, and each one just as important
and worthy of Maharaji's time as me or any Westerner.

[Then I said]How do you know this?

[Then Bruce replied] I thought that human equality, regardless of race or position was a qiven.Apparently you don't think so.


Bruce, I AM a racist! No, just kidding. Bruce, I admit I misread you. I thought you were saying MAHARAJI felt that way about all them there people. Given your oft-said comment (favoured by many fellow cult apologists) that you can't read Maharaji's mind, I was asking you how you read it this time. Hey, man, I was wrong. I admit it. I'm sorry. How can I ever make it up to you?

Also, Bruce, I'd forgotten that those videos would be in Hindi. Oops! Now I've got no idea what the fuck I'm talking about. Time for a knowledge review I guess.

But now, fair is fair, let's deal with this:

No, I don't think he makes a profit at all by going to India. In fact, he makes a loss. As far as I know, events and videos in poor countries are subsidised by the wealthier countries.

Again, Bruce, how in the world do you know? Are you privy to Maharaji's finances or not? Simple question, calls for a 'yes' or 'no'. I'm all ears.

[Jim]Hey, for all we know, Maharaji's just trying to piss on one of his brother's fence posts. Ever think about THAT, dumpkopff?

[Bruce]I don't think he'd bother. He's interested in people getting Knowledge, not paying people back or wasting time on people who only want to fullfill their own agendas. This includes you, I suspect.


Bruce, Bruce, Bruce, a little consistency please! Face it, you don't know what the hell Maharaji thinks about Satpal, you're just wishful thinking. Honerstly, do you really think he harbours nary a scintilla of resentment against his greatest traitor, his own flesh and blood brother, the man who robbed him of his birthright, who dragged him through the humiliation of litigation, etc. etc.? Again, Bruce, has he ever spoken to you about good ol' Satpal? Come on, man, share!

And another thing, your fascination for Golden Oldie is curious.
There's a few things that have never quite added up to me about Goldie, and somehow I wouldn't be surprised to find that he is actually one of you ex-prems, perhaps you yourself, Jim.

You see, after your little trick with ELK, even his and your denials have no credibility.


Bruce, I'm so sorry to learn that you don't trust me anymore. And to think we used to get along so well and everything. Boy, if I knew our little prank would have such disastrous impact I'd have thought twice. Naw... face it, Bruce, you've NEVER trusted me in the least. What's knew?

But I'll tell you something: I'm not Golden Oldie. I have no idea who the guy is or that he's not what he says he is, some sort of rogue premie. I swear that on my father's grave, if that makes any difference.

But can't you see why I like the guy? The inital issue between premies and ex's is Maharaji. The secondary issue that invariably flares up is how we talk about the first. Most premies are dishonest. I'm sorry but that's my impression. Goldie seems honest. I like that.

Now Goldie and I have never really gotten into the Maharaji issue oursleves. Not yet. I think I asked him something once, he admitted his position was irrational but we never pursued it further. Frankly, I've enjoyed watching him talk with you so much I didn't want to interfere. If and when he and I do talk about Maharaji it may unfortunately come to pass that I'll lose respect for him in terms of candour as I have most other premies. Hopefully not, but it may happen.

Anyway, I'm not him. Actually, I think he's the real thing. But, again, I don't know.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 22:48:33 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Bruce
Subject: Bruce's logic
Message:
And another thing, your fascination for Golden Oldie is curious.
There's a few things that have never quite added up to me about Goldie, and somehow I wouldn't be surprised to find that he is actually one of you ex-prems, perhaps you yourself, Jim.

You see, after your little trick with ELK, even his and your denials have no credibility.


Hey, Bruce. I just have to acknowledge good thinking when I see it, especially when it comes from a premie, I so rarely see it. But this observation of your's, to me, is downright near impeccable in it's logic. Not that I think Jim is Goldie, but I can see where you might suspect he is. I just thought I should come forward and congratulate a premie on good thinking. Hope you do more of it. It's refreshing, invigorating even.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 18:53:38 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Bruce, Mira, SHP
Subject: B&M's positive vibes
Message:
Bruce:
'What a mob of spoilt, Western brats!!!'

and Mira:
'so shut up whining kids.'

I get so sick of everyone on the forum (that includes me) getting called 'negative' Don't we all have a little salt and pepper in us along with our sugar? Premies included. People are people. Just because we don't believe in Maharaji doesn't make us all a bunch of negative 'ogres'.

Thanks and have a nice day :)
VP
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 12:56:46 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Bruce
Subject: Spoiled Western Brats
Message:
OK, Bruce (and Mira),
I admit it, I am a spoiled Western brat, when it comes to money, at least. I can't say I grew up in a loving family, and I have supported myself since I was of age. But I have never lived in poverty except voluntarily, and of course, I live in the US where there is so much excess in most places. How about both of you - are you spoiled Western brats, too?

However, I object to you categorically characterizing the people on this site as spoiled Western brats. During the time I've been posting on here, I've learned many people's life stories, and there are people on this site who grew up in poverty and/or very abusive situations. There are poor people in the West, too, you know - I did a lot of work in Appalachia when I lived in the Eastern US, and there is a lot of suffering there as well as in other parts of the world. Also, suffering is not a class-defined problem, although I agree that people who are destitute or hungry have a much harder time of it than those with adequate food, clothing, and shelter.

You also wrote: I wonder how many of them are demanding apologies from Maharaji. This appears to imply that people in the poorer parts of the world would be so grateful for receiving knowledge that they would never feel mistreated or abandoned by M or his organization no matter what happens. I don't believe this is true. If this is not what you meant, please correct me.

I also think that Maharaji needs to address the issues that the 'spoiled Western brats' on this site are bringing up. I wrote this on the premie forum page as well, and you probably read it. Specific issues include: encouraging the belief that he was the Lord of the Universe, and then changing his mind; closing the ashrams and leaving many of the former ashram premies to pay off large depts; threats that were made about premies who stopped practicing knowledge; the premie suicides; and so forth. I am sure there are more things that people would like to see Maharaji honestly address. As it stands, it appears that he's pretending these things never happened. I would feel a lot better about Maharaji if he was honest about the past history of his organization, and I don't think that would take much effort on his part.

Respectfully,
Katie
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 06:27:10 (EST)
From: Bruce
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Spoiled Western Brats
Message:
Katie,

A quick response. The past history of his organization varies immensely depending on whom you speak with.

Because you've spent so much time here. you've come to think that this history constantly repeated here, ad infinitum, is the true one. It is not. You are brainwashing yourself by reading the same things over and over. You say yourself that Maharaji did you no harm. Go by your own experience.

Perhaps your motives for being here are to help people deal with
getting out of Maharaji's world.

It doesn't appear to be working.
Do you really think that republishing Marolyn's private letters is helping anyone?
Do you think that anyone is getting over anything by spending so much of their time slagging him off? Why not face it?. As a therapy, this website is a dead loss.Who's moving on?
(Except the premies who get sick of it and leave.)
Actually, I noticed Mira's name and just thought I'd give a bit of encouragement. Don't analyse it too much. I just can't imagine the Nepalese going on like this.

I did write something for you at CD's.
Bruce
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 12:31:52 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Bruce
Subject: Letters
Message:
Bruce: You and shp have the same misconception about mail. The letter is NOT the property of Marolyn, it IS the property of the RECIPIENT! The RECIPIENT gave their permission to post it... When you write a letter to someone, it ceases being YOUR property once you hand it to the postman. Get it?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 14:18:09 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Letters
Message:
Dear Mike - you are right that the letter becomes the property of the recipient, but if you notice, Marolyn asks the recipient a few times to keep the letter to herself. It's LEGAL for the recipient to show the letter to other people, but it probably isn't ethical.

In this case, the recipient has apparently got a very good reason for showing other people the letter, but she has never come forward and fully explained it (to the forum, anyway) so posting the letter looks like an invasion of privacy. To me, anyway. You can read Mr. Ex's comments and decide for yourself.

Take care,
Katie
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 14:45:59 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Letters
Message:
Katie: I agree with you, actually. In a way, I'm glad that it was posted because I get to see the depth of 'uncaring' that emanates from her (or depth of personal 'evasion,' if you will). But, like I said in a post somewhere up top, I DO understand that she had just had one of the most dangerous and tricky medical procedures performed on her. I AM GLAD that she made it thru the ordeal. I would wish her no harm, ever. It's just rare to be able to 'see' the true results of the practice of K by someone so close to M. She is no different from any premie that I know (after sooooo many years) and that is my point, actually: K hasn't 'really' done anything good for anyone, not even one so close to M. It kinda paints a sad picture.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 18:50:41 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Reality check, Katie
Message:
It's LEGAL for the recipient to show the letter to other people, but it probably isn't ethical.

Katie,

The ruels of etiquette bend a bit, I'd say, when you start to realize that the Lord you've devoted your life to fro a couple of decades is a fraud and his wife, who you thought was your firned, is only interested in protecting her own little perch in his golden cage and preventing any real glimpse of the sordid truth from leaking out to the masses. Marolyn's request only carries some automatic obligation with it if it's made in good faith and ius reasonable. The friend never promised Marolyn she'd keep her great 'secret' (which was....?). Instead, her jaw dropped and heart sunk when she realized that Marolyn had nothing for her, never did, never will.

Marolyn's request, in the cirucmstances, was far too presumptuous. If she really cared so much abhout privacy she should have either made sure her friend's mind was in a perfect Maharaji mind lock and not leaking or she should ahve asked her first if she'd agree to keep all her comments private. Hey that might have taken not one, but two, communciations with Ms. friend. Marolyn couldn't be bothered. So fuck her.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 14:07:27 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Bruce
Subject: Spoiled Western Brats
Message:
Bruce, I answered your post at CD's, but I do want to comment on one thing here.

Because you've spent so much time here. you've come to think that this history constantly repeated here, ad infinitum, is the true one. It is not. You are brainwashing yourself by reading the same things over and over. You say yourself that Maharaji did
you no harm. Go by your own experience.


I disagree with the statement that I'm 'brainwashing' myself. I have friends who stayed around a lot longer than I did, and I believe their testimony as to what happens. One of my friends moved to Florida to work on the plane project at DECA, and she's got some interesting stories about that. I also believe many of the peoples testimony on this site - JW, Brian, Jean-Michel, and others. Some of these people were quite involved in the inner workings of Maharaji's organization, and some are friends of friends of mine. What they say fits in with what I know, so I believe them. But I don't just believe everything that any ex-premie posts on this site - that, I think, would be brainwashing.

I also haven't heard anyone contradict, in a believable way, the history that's 'endlessly repeated on this site'. What's wrong with that history, anyway? If you have an alternative view, I'd like to hear it - you can put it on CD's site if you want to.

I did say that Maharaji did me no harm. I guess I should modify that statement, and say he did me no lasting harm, because his satsang about the 'rotten vegetables' scared me to death, and kept me from leaving when I really wanted to. As I've said many times, I was in a really bad place when I got knowledge, and I benefitted from the structure and rules in the premie community. I still appreciate that, but I attribute that to the kindness of the other premies, not to Maharaji. But leaving was VERY hard - it took me a year to adjust to not being a premie anymore. I learned a lot during that time, so I can't say it was wasted, but it was still very difficult.

Anyway, that's how I see it. I also don't think that this website is a dead loss as therapy, because so many people have told me that it has helped them. I did appreciate your comments about not encouraging people to stay around forever, but it does take a while to get over being a premie.

Respectfully,
Katie

P.S. FYI - I don't think that the Mira who posted above is Mirabai, Keith's wife.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 14:49:29 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Spoiled as Hell and enjoying
Message:
Katie,
I agree that the forum is a good support group. It is very useful in that. It helped me figure out the truth about Maharaji.

I think the fact that we both are very bored with talking about Maharaji is evidence that some people here have moved on. Hey, Bruce, we just like seeing what's happening with some of our buddies.

Take it Easy
VP
Spoiled as Hell and Enjoying it :)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 18:06:53 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Bruce
Subject: To Bruce
Message:
Would you like to compare travelling notes, Brucey? You arrogant idiot!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 23:55:25 (EST)
From: Laura
Email: None
To: Mira
Subject: That's easy
Message:
Mira, it doesn't seem like English is your first language, so thanks for trying but you don't make any sense. And breath, breath, breath, JESUS, doesn't anybody get it?! It's not the breath, it's what's under the breath. Do you all just pretend to meditate?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 12:08:07 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Mira
Subject: That's easy
Message:
. Am I , are you contributing to some sort of global harmony? Isn't that why any of us first came to Maharaji?

Yes, that is EXACTLY the reason I came to Maharaji. It was out of idealism because I believed what he said that he had the power to, and would, bring peace to the entire world and we could 'serve' him and get to be a part of it, not that he NEEDED us. He was, after all, ALL POWERFUL and ALL KNOWING as we sung to him everyday in Arti and he was also 'greater than god.' But see, that's the problem, all that was a big lie. Maharaji was either an exceptionally big liar or very exceptionally deluded. I think it was some of both.

Doesn't your breath tell you anything? It's your gift, take it, appreciate it.

Who ever said I don't appreciate my breath? I appreciate it quite a lot, frankly, as I appreciate blood flow, a beating heart, a functioning nervous system, oxygen and functioning bodily organs, some more than others.

Do you make an effort to establish peace in your world every day?

I don't know about every day, but I can say I do a helluva lot more for peace in the world now than I ever did while I was a devotee of Maharaji. Then, I wasted all my time, talents and energies trying to serve a fraudulent cult leader who was proclaiming he was bringing peace to the world, but instead was just enriching himself.

You know that. Hey spoiled Western kids, take your gift and play.

I'm not sure what this statement means, but I would submit that if there was ever an example of a 'spoiled Western kid,' it is Prem Pal Singh Rawat, and he isn't really even 'western' at least not originall and he is hardly a kid anymore. Anybody who spends his time collecting classic cars, getting better and better private aircraft, and has gold plumbing fixtures in his motor home, is a 'spoiled western kid' in my opinion.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 19:13:13 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Spurious
Subject: The Living Perfect Waster
Message:
If he had nothing you’d call him a waster.

Not me. If I believed in that sort of thing, I'd call him a saint.

But 'Waster' has a certain ring to it, now you come to mention it...
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 01:05:42 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Curious
Subject: How?
Message:
Curious:

I keep coming back because I'm fascinated that such a big jerk can look so good for so long to so many people. It's like trying to figure out how moths get to be inside a closed and sealed light fixture, or how Leroy Nieman can pass for an artist. It's the silliness and mystery of it all that attracts me.

Q: How did the bed catch fire?
A: I don't know. It was burning when I laid down on it.

You are endlessly amusing, but too modest to see it. It's fun, and simultaneously reassuring and perverse: 'like athlete's foot.'

-Scott
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 03:58:49 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Curious
Subject: Why? Oy!
Message:
So we scared you into re-committing yourself to your meditation practice, eh? That's pretty funny.

If you get a sense of objective reality you'll find that we're not all angry all the time. I agree with you that continually nursing anger and resentment is not healthy. But this here forum is a place where folks can finally let it rip--all that repressed brain energy, emotions, doubts, fears, etc from being in the guru trip.
SInce I left the guru I've done a lot of things with my life and folks would definitely describe me as an upbeat kinda gal. But I enjoy coming here. It's fun, I'm curious about what will be on the forum each day, and it makes me think. In fact, it makes me question the value and purpose of my beliefs. The other day I was able to help a Catholic friend (a wonderful person) who was freaking out, because the deacon told her parish they were all going to hell if they didn't come regularly to confession. I was able to help her out of the maze of thinking that was torturing her, so that she was able to see how she was getting off track into something unhealthy w/ her religion. I don't think I would have been able to take her step by step through a logical process of seeing how harmful some of the church stuff is if I hadn't been part of the discussion on the forum. Of course, my friend is a rebellious type and was open to what I had to say--I don't go around bashing my friend's religions but she was asking me for my advice. So I'd have to say that this here forum has made me a better thinker and thus a better person and friend.

So, curious one, you can take good from this forum and leave the bad. THe world is not black & white, you know?

Love,
Helen
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 12:24:56 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Leroy Nieman-off topic
Message:
or how Leroy Nieman can pass for an artist

Thanks for the laugh this morning, Scott. That guy's works have the worst sense of color imaginable. On top of that, he can't draw.

I can tell you how he passes for and artist, though. He paints subject matter that sells to sports fanatics with big bucks. Period.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 18:53:48 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: How?
Message:
Oh boy! I want to comment and don't know where to start.
Can't possible top that one. I wish I had read it before that
stuff up there about murders and stuff.
wheee, Scott, you and advil are the hangover cure of the year!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 07:26:00 (EST)
From: srb
Email: None
To: Curious
Subject: Why?
Message:
He really believes in what he is doing?

Why does he have people kiss his feet?
why does he have people sing arti to him?
you know he isnt the lord.
HE knows he isnt.
Did you read his words from katmandu a few days ago?
He is admitting that he can't get to happiness and said
that feeling each breath was harder than climbing a
mountain.
He talked about dieties and he is supposed to be the lord of the
universe and the master of life.
He believes in keeping those that got programmed during
the 70's and eighties that he was the lord in some form of
delusion that he is something more than they are and that
That is the key issue for me.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 11:28:23 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Curious
Subject: Scaredy Cat
Message:
I found this site at a time when I was practicing knowledge but not really giving it too much time or attention - just the bare minimum really and - you’ll laugh at this! - you scared me so much that I might end up in such a disillusioned state that I started really putting in effort and got back on track! So in a perverse sense thanks for that!

Do you know how crazy this sounds? What, are you afraid that you'll become a rabid ex-premie if you stop practicing Knowledge altogether? You should check yourself out. It doesn't make much sense that you don't think you could fare(sp) well enough on your own without M & K. The only reason you'd think that way, IMHO, is because you've been brainwashed into thinking this is so. Don't worry about dropping M & K, scaredy cat. The only thing that will happen is that YOU'LL be the one in charge of your life. Somehow, you'll have to make sense of it, and make it work, on your own.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 20:43:59 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Curious
Subject: Why? - My story
Message:
Dear Curious,
After our dialogue about animal rescue, I thought I should answer your original question. I honestly don't think it was a bad question, and I think I can understand why you asked it (maybe).

Here's my story. I got knowledge in 1972, practiced pretty diligently for 4-5 years, and never got any real experience or benefit from it. Basically it just didn't do anything for me. I felt tremendously guilty all the time because I wasn't doing 'enough'. I'm not sure when you got K, but back in the seventies we were supposed to meditate 2 hours a day, go to satsang every night, and do service. I always felt like I wasn't measuring up. I gave 10% of my income to Maharaji, put up posters, handed out leaflets on the street, but still NOT enough.

During the year of 1976, the whole trip loosened up somewhat - premies left the ashram, Maharaji was to be known as a humanitarian leader rather than 'Lord of the Universe' (a.k.a. the present incarnation of god). I really liked that year - the premies were very happy and people seemed to feel good. However, during the next year, 1977, it was like the iron fist clamped down. We were told to 'rededicate' ourselves to Maharaji. I just couldn't deal with the increased guilt and pressure and I left.

I can't say Maharaji did me any harm - I was in a bad place when I received knowledge and being in the premie community really helped me, even though I didn't get much from the practice of knowledge itself. Thus I just left, and sort of went on with my life. I was very scared at first because Maharaji had said some bad things about premies who received knowledge and didn't practice it. I thought I might go crazy, but I didn't. I had support from two other ex-premies, who were also having a hard time, and that helped so much.

I didn't think much about Maharaji after that. Last year, a good friend of mine was searching the web and found this web site. She told me about it, and I started reading. I found out two things - that a premie who I'd been very close to had committed suicide, and I found out what had happened in the ashrams, where I had had a lot of friends. I was really upset about my friend killing himself, and decided to start posting on here in order to possibly help and support people who were as unhappy as he was.

I don't hate Maharaji, I don't hate premies, and I don't hate knowledge. I just know that there are a lot of premies out there who are very unhappy, like I was, and like my friend was. They think that they are alone in the world, and they have a tremendous amount of guilt, resentment, anger, and sadness about their involvement with Maharaji that they haven't been able to express to anyone. That is why this site sometimes seems so negative and hateful. Many people have not been able to, or not wanted to, talk about these things for years - their doubts, confusions, and anger. It's easy to say 'get over it', but it's a process, and the reason I work on this site is to help with that process. I've also met a lot of really great people, and they've helped me learn a lot about myself too.

I know sometimes you have to read between the lines to see the positive aspects of this site, but believe me, they are there. I wouldn't be here if it was just a bunch of complaining. People are actually experiencing healing here.

I hope you can understand, and accept this. You seem like a kind and tolerant person, so I think you'll be able to.

Regards from Katie
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 20:51:51 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The Fugitive Distractor
Message:
All:

This is a rather personal experience I would like to share. Forgive me for obsessing a bit about the Sam Sheppard story. The movie was poorly done, from an artistic standpoint, but the story affected me deeply. I think it is relevant to my/our experience with the M. cult, and it gains some credibility for me because I was a minor part of it. When I knew Sam in HS he was an accomplished athlete, a National Merit Scholar, and had been appointed by his peers and the school faculty to the top leadership position in the school we attended together (Regimental Sergeant Major his junior year, and Regimental Commander his senior year). One of his chief competitors was H. Ward Lay, the son of the Frito Lay founder, but Sam consistently beat Ward across nearly all categories. Until recently I had simply assumed that Sam was working somewhere as a high court justice, or CEO of a fortune 500 corporation. He could also have been a Senator, or Congressman, but I know who all those guys are. It was extraordinary to find that he 'ended up' as a dental hygienist (not that there's anything wrong...).

So, my thinking is that it takes an extraordinary focus to get yourself launched in a career that will provide you with material success, and the opportunity to make a unique contribution, and a distraction that occurs at a critical time can be devastating. Sam was great as long as his father was in prison. The distraction was minimal. But, when Sam was ready to graduate and begin his own life beyond the sheltered environment of a private HS Sam Sr. pops up. The focus was simply robbed from this extraordinary person. Although my own experience was qualitatively quite different, I think the formula and results are recognizable. In this case the 'father' that robbed our focus was a religious phony. I also don't completely discount the fact that Sam probably gained something, in the long run, from the distraction. In his case he was able to demonstrate, after an hiatus of 40 years, that his father was incontrovertibly innocent. I think the comparison takes a cruel turn here, for I don't hold out any possibility that the premies will have any such success. Sam Sheppard Jr.'s ordeal had a very definite conclusion and a clear metric (DNA evidence to a statistical certainty). At 50+ he now has his life back. Wonder what he will do with it? Wonder what I will do with mine?

-Scott
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 04:10:32 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: The Fugitive Distractor
Message:
Great post, Scott. I've often wondered the same kind of stuff myself. I'm 40 and somewhat of a 'late bloomer' professionally. But at least I did finally sprout a few buds--that's the important thing. I'm no huge success but I've found a field that really interests me where I can make a contribtion. It doesn't pay well, and neither does my husband's profession but we love what we do, and we both feel we're doing very worthwhile work in the community.

I really do know where you're coming from--the guru trip is such a big distraction, in my case incurring debt, health problems, etc that have followed me throughout my life. But I try not to let it stop me from achieving my goals (which are pretty modest but they are MINE)

This would be a interesting whole discussion (arrested career development and the Guru!)

Love,
Helen
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 11:18:43 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: The Fugitive Distractor
Message:
Helen:

I should say that the other side of Sam's story is that material success is not all that's important. I definitely think his life has been successful, probably at least as great as if he had become a Senator or something. He may ultimately have a profound effect on what we do about the death penalty. The difference between that and being a premie is that he ultimately was courageous enough to apply some sort of definitive test to what he was doing. Had he found his father guilty I think he still could have moved on. It would have released him. I just find the whole episode reassuring and disconcerting at the same time.

-Scott
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 11:46:44 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: The Fugitive Distractor
Message:
Obviously, having gone to school with this guy and seeing the show had a big impact on you. Sometimes, a sense of purpose & commitment does come from stuff that doesn't pay well. On a much smaller scale, I head up a PTA committee re: parenting & I'm helping to start a single parents' support group and an adoptive parents support group at my child's school. I also do a lot with the girl scout troop. This work is volunteer but it is very fulfilling to me. and since I work in the field of parent education it's right up my alley. I think the key is to have passion for whatever you're doing whether it be a mission like Sam's clearing his father's name, or volunteer work or whatever. From what I understand about Sam, his mission actually seems a lot more noble to me than wasting years following a guru.

I'm curious to hear more about your reaction to the show. Do you yourself feel as if you are not working/living up to your full potential due to wasted years with the guru? I think this is such a worthwhile topic--
Take care Scott
Helen
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 12:36:17 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: The Fugitive Distractor
Message:
Helen:

Actually, I don't think that I was derailed as much by the Guru as by the general milieu in the sixties and early seventies. Primarily I was distracted by the psychedelic culture, and Maharaji probably just extended that period by a few years. Bear in mind, also, that I was lucky enough to have exited the cult during a period of liberalization. Shortly after I left Maharaji really lowered the boom and people that were still around got captured for a very long time. Ask JW.

I think that if I had had an advisor at the early stage of my career, who could credibly relate to me the way the world actually works, and the consequences of my decisions, it would have saved me a lot of trouble. Another friend of mine was at Berkeley in the early sixties, and became the founder of SLATE. He went on to Harvard, and had a successful career as a sociologist, though he ran afoul of the left at one point. But, he told me once that he was not distracted from his career by anything. He said it was as though he emerged from HS and 'shot like an arrow.' In his case the SLATE business probably helped focus him even though the sixties as a whole were very distracting.

In addition, I think one has to acknowledge that the motivation of many premies was noble. It was the behavior of their leader that was ignoble. Wearing blinders, so that you fail to see the obvious, is not very noble; and, worse, it keeps you from developing any sort of perceptive skills that might help you operate in the 'real world.' The complacency of premies works to the advantage of the guru, but to their own disadvantage. This point has been made many times by many people on the forum.

-Scott
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 12:45:41 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Life preparation 101
Message:
I agree with you that career counseling and real world life managing skills are so important. I also agree that that whole era was pretty trippy and didn't exactly celebrate achievement! I think the tide has turned--kids are actually getting more realistic career information in high school. For example, in home ec classes around here they learn about managing work & family & managing a budget.

I don't know if your childhood was anything like mine but my parents had pretty rarified goals for their kids (writers, artists, etc). How to get from point A to point B though was not really covered. SO, I guess I'll spend the rest of my days blaming my parents and sitting in front of the tube eating Little Debbie snack cakes! (just jokin')

The 60's and 70's were wild times, I'm just glad I survived all the madness and can live to tell the tales...
Love,
Helen
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 13:29:24 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Life preparation 101
Message:
Helen:

R. Buckminster Fuller once said that the key to becoming successful in the latter half of the twentieth is simply surviving long enough to learn what counts. Bucky's career really didn't begin until he was 30 (he had a profligate youth), and Eisenhower's didn't get started until he was past 50. Ralf Dahrendorf wrote a book called 'Life Chances' in which he proposed the theory that opportunities for a successful life are based on a mix of freedoms and obligations. In other words, you have to be bound by relationships and institutions to some extent in order to be able to use freedom effectively. Too great an emphasis on freedom can erode life chances, ironically. Describes the sixties pretty well.

-Scott
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 15:39:34 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Great points
Message:
Good points, Scott. Makes me feel like less of a loser to see that I'm not the only late bloomer out there. I've survived long enough to figure out what counts. Just hope the 2nd half of my life I don't have to repeat any of the stupidity of the 1st. The permissiveness of the 60's and 70's was crazy, man. The music was good though
That Ralf Dahrendorf book sounds like a good one--is it worth checking out? You sure he's not one of Nigel's many aliases?

So Scott what do you do for a living? You mind my asking? You seem to be a smart guy. Was that a military academy you went to?

Helen
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 16:01:42 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Great points
Message:
Helen:

RE: So Scott what do you do for a living? You mind my asking? You seem to be a smart guy. Was that a military academy you went to?

Dahrendorf's book is a little bit dated, but presents an alternative perspective on economics to that of Marxism or the Laissez Faire capitalists. He was Dean of the London School of Economics for a time. Indeed, I've always suspected he and Nigel are close (except that he's German). I'm a political/social scientist living in the DC area, though I'm not sure you could call it 'making a living,' yet. I've known a few people at this site for a long time. Mike and I were in the same K session in S.F. after travelling together to L.A. from Portland. I was as big a sucker as anyone, including Curious. Just couldn't keep up the pretense. It's like wading into a swamp, and while holding your nose telling yourself you're not getting dirty. At a certain point you have to figure the smell must be coming from somewhere.

-Scott
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 16:06:16 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Great points
Message:
Amen brother, the body & mind can only endure the stink so long before screaming 'get me the hell out of here!'
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 23:18:57 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Helen&Scott
Subject: Great points
Message:
Dear Helen and Scott,
Hi, I just wanted to let you both know I've enjoyed reading this thread. The topic gives me hope also as I am still not doing what I want to do although I think I finally know what I want to do so that is a big deal. Actually there are 2 choices, one in my field but I am lacking the required Masters Degree, the other requires no formal education at all. Maybe there is hope for us all! :)
Good to 'see' you here Scott.
Love,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 16:02:43 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Great points
Message:
Robyn:

Contrary to popular belief a Master's degree is not all that difficult to achieve. There are a number of 12-month programs around so you don't necessarily have to take two years off. The trouble is they're usually expensive, tuition-wise I mean. And, frankly, they are often not worth the cost.

-Scott
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 16:54:30 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Scott T. & Robyn
Subject: Hi guys
Message:
Hey Robyn & Scott,

Robyn--I wish you all the best with your career goals. Having it narrowed down to two is pretty damn good in my opinion. Do you think being involved with GM sidetracked you from figuring out what you wanted to do? You have kids, right? Juggling raising kids and career is quite a trip. I got my Master's by working at Catholic U and since I was an employee I got tuition reimbursement. That was the only way I could afford to go to grad school.

Scott--For me having a Master's has meant bigger salaries and more doors opening. I also think it helped me think more critically. But I agree with you it's not always necessary. And it's exhausting (at least for me it was). I'd give birth 5 more times before I'd ever get another advanced degree (and I ain't planning on having any more kids) I know so many moms who are 'ABD'--All But Dissertation cause it was too damn hard raising kids and trying to get a PhD.

Scott I enjoy reading your political science/economics posts. That is an area that is lacking completely in my knowledge base. Kind of pathetic growing up in the DC area, eh? Are you a native DC-er or did you move here to be 'where the action is' for your career?

Helen
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 08:43:05 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Scott T.
Subject: Great points
Message:
Dear Scott,
I will probably miss you, I see you are going to NYC but I wouldn't want or have the money to go the fast track pace for a Master's. I couldn't handle the stress. I love to learn but not to force it down my throat.
Have a great T-day.
Love,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index