Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum III Archive # 29 | |
From: Nov 14, 1998 |
To: Nov 27, 1998 |
Page: 5 Of: 5 |
Nigel, Jim, JW, TD -:- ENJOYINGLIFE EXPOSED!!! -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 20:00:24 (EST) __Evidence (1) -:- Andy O'Dwyer -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 20:02:58 (EST) __Evidence (2) -:- David Goldberg -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 20:04:55 (EST) __Evidence (3) -:- Carl 'Bongo' Beringer -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 20:10:40 (EST) __Evidence (4) -:- Don Matthews -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 20:17:28 (EST) ____hamzen -:- Evidence 1-4 -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 20:43:55 (EST) __Evidence (5) -:- Diane Tully -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 20:32:52 (EST) __Evidence (6),(7),(8) -:- Gordon, Danny & Amanda -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 20:38:04 (EST) ____jethro -:- Gordon, Danny & Amanda -:- Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 00:59:01 (EST) __Evidence (9) -:- Willi Kranz -You'll love this! -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 20:42:03 (EST) ____Helen -:- Nigel, you slay me! -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 22:33:08 (EST) __Evidence (10)... -:- Farus Dampier -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 20:52:52 (EST) __eb -:- To Nigel--I'm Your Biggest Fan -:- Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 15:00:43 (EST) Jim -:- Invitation to the ELKies -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 11:59:57 (EST) __Jean-Michel -:- Unless insomnia strikes -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 12:28:45 (EST) __Gail -:- What's going to happen? -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 12:45:22 (EST) __Elkie Brooks -:- Thanks, I'll drop by. -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 15:04:51 (EST) __Big M -:- Can I come too? -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 16:49:32 (EST) ____Runamok -:- Can you play in traffic? -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 20:28:59 (EST) Jean-Michel -:- The truth about liberation -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 06:19:19 (EST) __Miss Behavin' -:- The truth about liberation -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 09:06:58 (EST) ____Jean-Michel -:- Liberation/devotion included -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 09:19:14 (EST) ______S R B -:- Liberation/devotion included -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 10:11:03 (EST) ________JW -:- Patterson -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 19:15:07 (EST) __________DV -:- Patterson -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 20:04:38 (EST) __________srb -:- Patterson -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 23:38:13 (EST) ____________Katie -:- Patterson -:- Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 19:01:33 (EST) __TD -:- Who asks the questions? -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 20:42:09 (EST) ____Jean-Michel -:- Who asks the questions? -:- Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 09:18:43 (EST) __Helen -:- The truth about liberation -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 17:59:59 (EST) Helen -:- Help me, Miss Manners -:- Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 23:50:05 (EST) __Katie -:- Help me, Miss Manners -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 00:14:48 (EST) ____Runamok -:- Help me, Lord -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 01:05:09 (EST) __TD -:- Tape over it... -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 04:48:51 (EST) ____Katie -:- Recycling videos -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 11:31:14 (EST) ______TD -:- Recycling videos -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 17:53:37 (EST) ________Katie -:- Recycling videos -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 18:25:03 (EST) __Selene -:- Help me, Miss Manners -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 11:33:59 (EST) ____VP -:- Help me, Mr. Manners -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 12:39:03 (EST) ______Helen -:- Help me, Mr. Manners -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 12:51:32 (EST) ________VP -:- Help me, Mr. Manners -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 12:55:53 (EST) ____Helen -:- Help me, Miss Manners -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 12:46:55 (EST) ______eb -:- MyLastRemainingPremieFriend -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 16:16:45 (EST) ________Helen -:- Friends -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 16:41:45 (EST) __________Katie -:- Friends -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 18:30:02 (EST) ____________Selene -:- Friends -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 20:38:28 (EST) ______________Katie -:- Friends -:- Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 14:26:35 (EST) ________Gail -:- PREMIES DON'T HAVE FRIENDS. -:- Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 17:35:47 (EST) __________Selene -:- PREMIES DON'T HAVE FRIENDS. -:- Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 18:02:22 (EST) ____________JW -:- PREMIES DON'T HAVE FRIENDS. -:- Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 18:16:55 (EST) ______________Selene -:- FRIENDS thru the years -:- Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 19:31:06 (EST) ________________Diz -:- FRIENDS thru the years -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 19:12:26 (EST) __________________Selene -:- FRIENDS thru the years -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 21:56:17 (EST) ____________________Helen -:- I'll come to that party ... -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 23:23:44 (EST) Jim -:- Katmandu Nov 15 -:- Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 20:22:28 (EST) __VP -:- Idealism vs. Reality -:- Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 23:16:59 (EST) ____Helen -:- Idealism vs. Reality -:- Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 23:42:59 (EST) __Jim -:- What a fucking ignoramus!! -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 01:21:25 (EST) ____srb -:- What a fucking ignoramus!! -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 10:01:08 (EST) ______gerry -:- What the BeaMer really means -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 11:41:48 (EST) __Jerry -:- Katmandu Nov 15 -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 11:24:39 (EST) __JW -:- Katmandu Nov 15 -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 12:37:38 (EST) ____Joy -:- Katmandu Nov 15 -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 13:35:22 (EST) ______To Brian (sorry) -:- Katmandu Nov 15 -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 14:25:12 (EST) ________Forum Elves -:- Fixed it, Joe -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 19:24:58 (EST) ______srb -:- Katmandu Nov 15 -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 14:30:44 (EST) ____TD -:- I can relate to Diane -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 17:29:24 (EST) hamzen -:- A bit late but... -:- Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 16:28:25 (EST) __Helen -:- A bit late but... -:- Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 16:40:48 (EST) __Jerry -:- Hey, Ham -:- Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 16:56:06 (EST) __Liz -:- A bit late but... -:- Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 19:35:46 (EST) ____Big Bad Wolf -:- A bit late but... -:- Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 23:24:17 (EST) ______Jim -:- Here's the address -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 01:07:05 (EST) ____eb -:- A bit late but... -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 18:42:11 (EST) __stark raving burke -:- A bit late but... -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 09:47:03 (EST) ____srb -:- the enjoying life t shirt -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 10:35:24 (EST) ____hamzen -:- H/J/L/BBWOLF/JIM/MRBURKE -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 20:13:50 (EST) ______JW -:- Ham, I'M With You -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 20:17:31 (EST) ________hamzen -:- Ham, I'M With You -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 21:21:14 (EST) __________op -:- a bit late -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 08:16:04 (EST) Barney -:- Until Tuesday? -:- Sun, Nov 15, 1998 at 14:56:57 (EST) __Jim -:- Until Tuesday? -:- Sun, Nov 15, 1998 at 16:06:55 (EST) Jim -:- Maharaji nov 14 katmandu -:- Sun, Nov 15, 1998 at 14:35:39 (EST) __TD -:- Maharaji nov 14 katmandu -:- Sun, Nov 15, 1998 at 20:56:20 (EST) __Sir David -:- Maharaji nov 14 katmandu -:- Sun, Nov 15, 1998 at 22:11:41 (EST) ____Jerry -:- Maharaji nov 14 katmandu -:- Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 10:19:17 (EST) ______Jean-Michel -:- After we die -:- Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 11:06:15 (EST) ________Sir D -:- After we die -:- Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 12:08:59 (EST) __________Sir D again -:- After we die -:- Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 12:25:24 (EST) __________Here is what M said -:- about it! -:- Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 13:27:50 (EST) ____________Here is what is said -:- Part 2 -:- Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 13:29:12 (EST) ______________Sir D -:- Part 2 -:- Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 14:47:25 (EST) ________________Joy -:- Part 2 -:- Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 15:20:54 (EST) __________________Jean-Michel -:- I see ! -:- Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 15:34:44 (EST) ________________Jean-Michel -:- Part 2: nothing new -:- Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 15:27:53 (EST) __________________Sir D -:- Part 2: nothing new -:- Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 19:23:09 (EST) ____________________Jean-Michel -:- Part 2: nothing new -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 00:16:38 (EST) ____________________Jerry -:- Good for the burglar -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 10:19:12 (EST) ______Joy -:- Maharaji nov 14 katmandu -:- Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 12:22:13 (EST) ________VP -:- Joy, I can relate to that: -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 18:47:50 (EST) ______Liz -:- Breath -:- Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 19:18:07 (EST) ________Sir D -:- Breath -:- Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 19:44:22 (EST) __________Jim -:- Astonishing naivite -:- Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 20:17:10 (EST) ________Jerry -:- Breath -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 09:21:20 (EST) __srb -:- Maharaji nov 14 katmandu -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 10:51:14 (EST) DV da Brave -:- Hits -:- Sat, Nov 14, 1998 at 23:08:00 (EST) __Sir David -:- Hits -:- Sun, Nov 15, 1998 at 10:31:44 (EST) ____DV -:- Hits -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 20:17:15 (EST) ______dv -:- Amazing- no one noticed. -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 20:18:53 (EST) ________VP -:- Which books, DV -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 20:51:31 (EST) __________Katie -:- the book scam -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 21:32:37 (EST) Jim -:- Katmandu report now in! -:- Sat, Nov 14, 1998 at 12:46:19 (EST) __Sir D -:- Katmandu report now in! -:- Sat, Nov 14, 1998 at 15:31:28 (EST) ____Selene -:- Katmandu report now in! -:- Sat, Nov 14, 1998 at 17:11:05 (EST) __Carl Beringer -:- Katmandu report now in! -:- Sat, Nov 14, 1998 at 20:17:19 (EST) ____Jerry -:- Bye Carl -:- Sat, Nov 14, 1998 at 20:40:57 (EST) ______david m -:- Bye Carl -:- Sat, Nov 14, 1998 at 20:55:09 (EST) ________Gerry -:- Carl Beringer is a fat bastard -:- Sun, Nov 15, 1998 at 01:21:01 (EST) ____Jim -:- An invitation -:- Sat, Nov 14, 1998 at 21:05:08 (EST) ______Carl -:- Count me out, pal! -:- Sat, Nov 14, 1998 at 21:15:44 (EST) ________david m -:- P E A C E -:- Sat, Nov 14, 1998 at 21:24:03 (EST) ________Joy -:- Mellow Out, Pal -:- Sat, Nov 14, 1998 at 23:33:54 (EST) __________Sir D -:- Maharaji brings world peace -:- Sun, Nov 15, 1998 at 00:09:05 (EST) ____________Gail -:- Maharaji brings world peace -:- Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 00:08:47 (EST) __________Sister Mary Elephant -:- Yes, Joy, big boobs indeed, -:- Sun, Nov 15, 1998 at 01:27:58 (EST) __________Scott T. -:- Mellow Pillow -:- Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 08:42:42 (EST) __________JW -:- Mellow Out, Pal -:- Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 13:04:33 (EST) ________Jim -:- Tuesday's the day, Carl -:- Sun, Nov 15, 1998 at 00:36:53 (EST) ________Jerry -:- You'll be here -:- Sun, Nov 15, 1998 at 10:22:14 (EST) ________JW -:- Hi Carl -:- Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 12:54:25 (EST) __________Rick -:- Hi Carl -:- Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 16:47:48 (EST) __________Jim -:- In Defense of Carl -:- Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 19:02:22 (EST) ____________JW -:- In Defense of Carl/Ron -:- Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 19:30:08 (EST) __________Gerry -:- In Defense of Ron -:- Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 19:14:12 (EST) ____________Mickey the Numerologist -:- In Defense of Ron -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 11:42:18 (EST) ______________Mike -:- In Defense of Ron -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 14:25:28 (EST) ____Sir D -:- Well Carl -:- Sat, Nov 14, 1998 at 23:37:59 (EST) ____Jethro -:- Katmandu report now in! -:- Sun, Nov 15, 1998 at 02:28:03 (EST) ____bongo beringer -:- the breath vampire -:- Sun, Nov 15, 1998 at 11:08:15 (EST) ______Sir D -:- the breath vampire -:- Sun, Nov 15, 1998 at 12:44:54 (EST) ________stark raving burke -:- the breath vampire -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 11:12:40 (EST) __________Jim -:- hold on there, Bill -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 12:06:45 (EST) ____________stark raving burke -:- hold on where? to my breath ? -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 14:37:23 (EST) ______________Gerry -:- hold on where? to my breath ? -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 16:10:26 (EST) __________hamzen -:- the breath vampire -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 14:15:40 (EST) ____________bill -:- year 2000 -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 14:58:55 (EST) ______________VP -:- year 2000 -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 17:49:31 (EST) ________________bb -:- year 2000 -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 18:57:42 (EST) __________________VP -:- year 2000 -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 19:01:38 (EST) ____________________Sir Bazil Cheeseman -:- year 2000 -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 21:14:16 (EST) __Diz -:- Katmandu report now in! -:- Sun, Nov 15, 1998 at 22:15:38 (EST) seymour -:- He's done me no harm -:- Sat, Nov 14, 1998 at 12:42:59 (EST) __Jim -:- Yea, I know that one -:- Sat, Nov 14, 1998 at 12:54:52 (EST) __Helen -:- Ethical blindspots -:- Sat, Nov 14, 1998 at 13:00:36 (EST) __Joy -:- He's done me no harm -:- Sat, Nov 14, 1998 at 14:27:51 (EST) ____VP -:- Thanks, Joy -:- Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 13:51:31 (EST) ____JW -:- Very Well Said, Joy. -:- Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 14:45:17 (EST) ______Joy -:- Very Well Said, Joy. -:- Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 15:01:43 (EST) ____Gerry -:- Lame, Joy -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 14:06:22 (EST) ______Joy -:- I Don't Think So, Gerry -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 15:23:52 (EST) ________Gerry -:- I Don't Think So, Gerry -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 15:45:29 (EST) __________VP -:- I Don't Think So, Gerry -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 18:11:14 (EST) __________Katie -:- I Don't Think So, Gerry -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 19:00:39 (EST) ____________JW -:- I Don't Think So, Gerry -:- Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 19:10:54 (EST) ______________Gerry -:- But they are hurting others! -:- Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 12:49:03 (EST) ________________Helen -:- They don't have all the info -:- Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 18:27:46 (EST) __Sir David -:- He's done me no harm -:- Sat, Nov 14, 1998 at 15:15:32 (EST) ____david m -:- He's done me no harm/RIGHT -:- Sat, Nov 14, 1998 at 20:32:05 (EST) ______Sir D -:- Inform the press, Dave -:- Sun, Nov 15, 1998 at 10:19:33 (EST) ________JW -:- Inform the press, Dave -:- Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 15:00:14 (EST) __Selene -:- He's done me no harm -:- Sat, Nov 14, 1998 at 17:32:41 (EST) ____seymour -:- He's done me no harm -:- Sat, Nov 14, 1998 at 17:59:15 (EST) ______Helen -:- He's done me no harm -:- Sat, Nov 14, 1998 at 20:55:08 (EST) ________seymour -:- He's done me no harm -:- Sun, Nov 15, 1998 at 08:25:45 (EST) __________Helen -:- He's done me no harm -:- Sun, Nov 15, 1998 at 09:10:27 (EST) ____________Laura -:- He's done me no harm -:- Sun, Nov 15, 1998 at 12:18:54 (EST) ______________Helen -:- He's done me no harm -:- Sun, Nov 15, 1998 at 13:45:52 (EST) ________________Laura -:- He's done me no harm -:- Sun, Nov 15, 1998 at 19:12:15 (EST) __________________Helen -:- He's done me no harm -:- Sun, Nov 15, 1998 at 22:07:53 (EST) ____________________Mickey the Pharisee -:- He's done me no harm -:- Sun, Nov 15, 1998 at 22:22:42 (EST) ______________________Helen -:- He's done me no harm -:- Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 07:59:35 (EST) __________________op -:- He's done me no harm -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 07:27:27 (EST) __________Laura -:- He's done me no harm -:- Sun, Nov 15, 1998 at 12:10:47 (EST) __________Diz -:- He's done me no harm -:- Sun, Nov 15, 1998 at 22:02:35 (EST) __bill -:- He's done me no harm -:- Sun, Nov 15, 1998 at 11:14:52 (EST) __JW -:- He's done me no harm -:- Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 14:54:39 (EST) |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 20:00:24 (EST)
From: Nigel, Jim, JW, TD Email: None To: Everyone Subject: ENJOYINGLIFE EXPOSED!!! Message: Since the Enjoyinglife website was set up, there have been a number of outrageous allegations made on this forum to the effect that published contributions to the premies' site were not the open and honest expressions of thought and feeling one might expect if there were not some form of censorship in operation. The unnatural, alien vocabulary, for one thing; the stilted expressions; the carefully-pitched, guru-stitched praise of the Master that is, on the one hand, never too gushing and, on the other, never less than fulsome; all these have roused many suspicions. What is going on? Are only hand-picked, anand-picked PEWK's allowed to submit? Or are unacceptable expressions removed? Do El.org write the 'Lives with Knowledge' themselves? After all, they are claiming copyright on submissions, so why not? Now, thanks to 'Operation Trojan Horse', the good people of this forum (and Bruce) can finally learn the truth. The Forum III Merry Punksters Collective has been busy amassing some incontrovertible evidence, a modest, but definitive selection of which will be posted in the thread below. We have found that not only are contributor's posts subject to frequent cuts (without consent having been obtained) but that unacceptable words, phrases, sentences or important paragraphs are removed and replaced by original expressions that will better suit the worldly aspirations of a Living Lord who isn't quite so keen on the 'Lord' bit nowadays. Not surprisingly, some serious distortions arise through these creative reinterpretations... In many cases they have turned our most earnest expressions into works of pure fiction. :-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 20:02:58 (EST)
From: Evidence (1) Email: None To: Nigel, Jim, JW, TD Subject: Andy O'Dwyer Message: 'Andy O'Dwyer' (aka. Nigel) has been out of the loop for a long time. He's never heard of 'Knowledge Lite' and still lives in a timewarp where Guru Maharaj Ji is nothing less than Lord of the Universe. How would the Enjoyinglife censors deal with his contribution? Look down to the last few paragraphs where the censor's cuts are [HIGHLIGHTED IN BOLD RED CAPITALS]. ************************************************** Hello there, how are you all doing? My name is Andrew (Andy) O'Dwyer. I was born 45 years ago in county Sligo to a family of itinerant travellers. I never knew my mother and father but was raised instead by My Uncle John and Aunt Miriam. Uncle John was a tinker in the traditional sense and we spent all my growing years travelling around Ireland. I'd like to say we lived in a horse-drawn caravan too, but reality is never as romantic as people think!. Instead we had a big black converted bus that once saw service on the streets of Cork city back in the thirties. Uncle John must have been quite a mechanic on the side, because between us we kept that thing running for something like seventeen years. I realise now we must have been very poor, but it never seemed like that At the time as there was always food on the table, and John and Miriam always made me feel like the luckiest boy alive. I didn't get much of a schooling since we were always on the move, but Aunt Miriam gave me a great love of literature and poetry and there was never a time my head wasn't stuck firmly between the pages of some book or other. My favourite times were the summer fairs in County Wicklow where Uncle John always managed to find work and aunt Miriam (who was never a Romany) used to take out her headscarf and large gold earrings and tell fortunes to the fair-goers from a little tent as 'Madame Mystra'. She knew nothing about tarot or palmistry, but used To just make people's futures up as she went along. The punters often came back the next year to say how accurate the predictions had been! We used to find this hysterically funny. 'There's one born every minute' Uncle John would always say. So I guess you could say I was pretty much a sceptic in those days. But I loved nature and the wild mountains, and there was always this feeling in me that there must be some deep mystery going on in nature that was also right there within myself, if I could just put my finger on it. Anyway, all good things come to an end, and when I was seventeen Aunt Miriam died. Uncle John almost went to pieces, but managed to stay off the drink and keep himself together, thank God. Unfortunately around that time he started keeping some undesirable company and was soon involved in carrying occasional parcels across the border into the north. He always refused to talk to me about this. Uncle John was a good man and I'm sure he only got involved in all that business because he was very hard up and it paid well. But I told myself I'm not wanting any of that caper and took off for London as soon as I was eighteen. [AS I SAW IT, UNCLES FORM OF IDEALISM HAD BROUGHT NOTHING BUT SORROW TO OUR LAND FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS WHILE I SINCERELY FELT THERE MUST BE SOME OTHER WAY OF ESTABLISHING PEACE, BOTH IN IRELAND AND ACROSS THE WORLD.] It was the early seventies and I was working on building site in Belsize park. One day a hippie-looking girl was walking past and I wolf-whistled her (she was quite a looker!). Instead of carrying on past, she turned and came over to speak to me. Shes all yours, Andy was my immediate thought, but instead she started telling me about this Indian kid, [GURU MAHARAJ JI, WHO WAS GOING TO BRING PEACE TO THE WHOLE WORLD. NOT ONLY THAT BUT GURU MAHARAJ JI, THE LIVING PERFECT MASTER,] could show me a perfect gift Inside myself. Sceptic that I was, I was having none of it, but because I really fancied this Sarah chick I went along with her one eveing [TO THE PALACE OF PEACE WHICH WAS ONLY A COUPLE OF STREETS AWAY FROM WHERE I WAS WORKING]. I listened to [MAHATMA GURU] Charanand give satsang, and all at once I felt something happening in me, the like of which I had never known before. Within a week I had received Knowledge (either I was lucky or they seemed to be just giving it away to all-comers at that time). [I EVEN SURRENDERED THE REINS OF MY LIFE TO GURU MAHARAJ JI WHO I RECOGNISED AS TRULY THE SUPERIOR POWER IN PERSON.] [I REMEMBER CHARANAND SAYING AS HE SHOWED US THE NECTAR TECHNIQUE THAT I WOULD NEVER HAVE TO DRINK AGAIN - NOT EVEN WATER! - CAN YOU IMAGINE? UNFORTUNATELY I WAS STILL RATHER FOND OF THE ALE (NOT THE BLACK STUFF - I'M NOT YOUR COMPLETE PADDY STEREOTYPE, YOU KNOW!), SO NOT DRINKING WASNT REALLY ON THE CARDS. I REALISE NOW,] I was not really ready for Maharji Ji's [PRICELESS GIFT OF] knowledge, since I moved into an ashram and was thrown out again a few weeks later! The trouble was my new friend Sarah and I were becoming altogether too fond of one another, and what with she having moved into the same ashram, we ended up breaking our celibacy vows on a pretty routine basis, and every time I got drunk I would carry chicken legs or kebabs back to the ashram. Jeez! - can you imagine? We were supposed to be teetotal and strictly vegetarian. Ah, but I remember those days with a great fondness, still. Having split up with Sarah, I wandered off for a while, returning to Ireland and living the travelling life again. I thought I might just keep the Knowledge for myself, practice on my own in rural tranquility. But after meeting my wife Kathy, I settled down for many years and we ran a small poultry farm in Wicklow. Unforunately I lost contact with the other premies, and I found it impossible to practice without that daily [CONSTANT] focus [AND SURRENDER TO SATSANG, SERVICE AND MEDITATION]. Many years followed, with many ups and downs along the way. I tried to meditate when I could and I always knew over the years that I was still carrying [MY PRECIOUS GURU MAHARAJ JI] in my heart. When my marriage broke up a couple of years back, I moved back over to England again, and now live in Chester, UK, where I work in insurance. [I FOUND THIS INTERNET SITE THANKS TO A WORK COLLEAGUE TELLING ME ABOUT THE EX-PREMIE.ORG SITE. I LOOKED THERE FIRST AND COULDNT BELIEVE THE GOSSIP AND LIES I WAS READING. BUT, BY HIS GRACE, SOMEONE POSTED A LINK TO THIS SITE WHICH IS HOW] I found your beacon of peace and hope in a turbulent cyberworld. Take care, and keep up the good work, all of you. Andy Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 20:04:55 (EST)
From: Evidence (2) Email: None To: Nigel, Jim, JW, TD Subject: David Goldberg Message: Meet Dave Goldberg (aka. Jim). The question is: would you buy a second-hand video from this man? Again, there are edits aplenty and they speak volumes about the Elk revisionists. ************************************************** Hi. My name's David Goldberg and I live in Los Angeles. I've had Knowledge for twenty-five years but never realized it has been so long until I started reading some of the others here. Twenty-five years! Twenty-five years of knowing that the breath in me is a gift of love and not just some cold, scientific phenomenon. My work in the clothing industry takes me all over the world. I've been to every continent besides Antarctica and have met and worked with people from many, many different cultures. I've spent extensive periods in various places, developing new pieces and seeting up their production. In so doing, I've gotten to really appreciate the strengths and weaknesses of different cultures and their spiritual traditions. One thing is clear, though. People without Knowledge are thirsty for the heart and that's the one thing no philosophy can deliver. Working side by side with many of my foreign business associates long enough to get past the normal cultural and language barriers, I have met some very beautiful and devout followers of many religions. As we get to know each other our defenses often drop and, invariably, there comes a time when I can tell them a bit about Maharaji and practising. [THAT IS ALWAYS A SACRED MOMENT, FILLED WITH GRACE became 'That is always a special moment'] It still feels that way even after all these years. Something special happens when my colleague asks me how I could [WORSHIP MY MASTER became 'follow my master.'] the way I do. I've had Hindu, Buddhist and Christian friends all ask me [THE SAME QUESTION, 'YOU MAKE IT SOUND LIKE YOUR TEACHER IS KRISHNA (OR BUDDHA OR JESUS) HIMSELF.' became ' this question.'] [THAT'S WHEN I JUST SMILE AND FEEL THE GRACE. MAHARAJI TAUGHT US LONG AGO THERE'S NO POINT ANSWERING THAT QUESTION. became 'I always reply'] 'By his fruits ye shall know Him', right? Last year I was involved in a project in Mexico. I spent three months working with Carmen, a designer in Puerto Vallarta. Carmen and her husband, Ricardo, are both practising Catholics and went to church at least once a week. Once, after I'd been there a while, they invited me along. I went out of politeness, curiosity and also, perhaps, a desire to get away from all the time-share salespeople [AND FEEL SOME REVERENCE FOR THE CREATOR]. I might have been better off sitting in my hotel room and practising in that respect but I guess I didn't want to be rude either. After the service I went back with Carmen and Ricardo to their picturesque villa (near where they filmed 'The Night of the Iguana') and, over a gorgeous Mexican spread of tortillas, guacamole and seafood, they asked me about [MY RELIGION became 'religion']. Carmen said that although I didn't go to church I seemed to have a sense of calm about me. She commented on how patient I was given the fact that our project was frustrated by several serious delays. How did I do [IT IF I DIDN'T HAVE GOD became 'it']? Ricardo looked at me a little perplexed. I could see something inside of him was just asking to be told. 'I've been shown a way to turn inside and find constant peace there,' I said. 'That place is the heart [AND THAT IS WHERE GOD DWELLS. I'VE BEEN SHOWN WHERE TO FIND HIM.] [CARMEN AND RICARDO WERE SILENT FOR A MOMENT. THEN CARMEN ASKED, 'BUT HOW CAN YOU SEE GOD IF HE HIMSELF DOESN'T SHOW YOU?'] [AND THAT'S WHEN I JUST FELT THE BIGGEST SMILE OVERTAKE ME. WHAT COULD I SAY? THE NEXT DAY I WENT BACK TO CARMEN'S VILLA BUT THIS TIME WITH A GIFT, AN INTRODUCTORY VIDEO.] Since then, Carmen and Ricardo have gone to several video events with me here when they've visited in Los Angeles. They might not have received Knowledge yet but they tell me they already know what I was smiling about. [MAHARAJI'S GRACE became 'Maharaji'] has touched so many people. [I FEEL THAT HE HAS MADE ME HIS GREATEST INSTRUMENT WHEN I CAN SIMPLY LET HIM TAKE ME OVER AND LEAVE A SIMPLE COATCHECK OF A SMILE ON MY LIPS became ' and it feels so wonderful to be involved in that process.'] [MAHARAJI, I'M ALL YOURS. THANK YOU, LORD, FOR LETTING ME SERVE YOU became 'Thank you, Maharaji']. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 20:10:40 (EST)
From: Evidence (3) Email: None To: Nigel, Jim, JW, TD Subject: Carl 'Bongo' Beringer Message: Meet Carl Beringer (aka. Nigel), 'The Conscious Anaesthetist'. There was some weird editing here. For one thing, the carefully chosen American spellings (thanks Joe) were all changed back to English ones in a bewildering act of cultural chauvinism. But more serious is the way that, towards the end, they have made cuts and amendments that totally distort Carl's message. Carl is Mr 'Knowledge Ultra-Lite' who likes the gift but doesn't perceive it as anything special or unique. He sees Maharaji as a mere mortal. But is he allowed to say so? (As usual, bold red capitals = cut) ************************************************** My name is Carl Beringer and this is my third attempt at writing down my 'real life'. The trouble is I have read some fascinating life stories here and, by comparison, I don't feel I've done very much to talk about. I'm somewhat younger than many of the contributors here, so was never involved in any of that sixties stuff, the rock festivals or anti-war politics. I never smoked pot and never followed any hippie trail to the east. In fact, from the outside, my life must look about as boring as it possibly could. I had a fairly happy, secure childhood. I did well enough in high school and had a comfortable ride through college, though I was never what you would call a high-achiever academically. I had no particular ambitions in life, but since college I have worked as an anesthetist in a local hospital. It is a job I enjoy and feel to be worthwhile. I am married with two wonderful kids and, in fact, I would be pretty dumb to complain about anything that life has brought my way. Although Presbyterians, my folks were never really church-goers, and I was certainly never interested in anything you might call religion (and I'm still not). However, there was always something that seemed to be missing in my life, something I could never quite put my finger on. I remember getting a small promotion - this was back in the late '80s - and the bigger paycheck didn't seem to do for me what I had expected it to. It seemed to make me LESS rather than more happy with my life. In fact, I started feeling this constant anxiety that life was somehow slipping away and I wasn't really experiencing it. Someone else was living it, not ME. My way of coping was by eating, and eating way too much than is good for anyone. It was becoming a real [MEDICAL] problem, and people at work had started to make comments. They were well-meaning, of course, but their remarks were always painful to listen to, and I realised something had to change. Around the same time, whether by fate or coincidence, I met my wife-to- be. It was a quiet day in the hospital and I was sitting in the hallway eating my lunch because I was on call. [WE GOT TALKING AND I WAS TELLING HER ABOUT MY WORK. I HAD ALREADY NOTICED was inexplicably changed to 'She introduced herself as someone new at the hospital and I noticed'] something about her that I really responded to, and it wasn't any of the usual stuff guys like about a woman. She didn't mention Maharaji on that occasion, but on our first date at restaurant, she suddenly said, 'Carl, you seem to know all there is to know about making people unconsciousness, but do you really know what it is [LIKE] to be CONSCIOUS?' This seemed like a crazy question, but, as I soon discovered, this is probably the most important question a person can ask you. In a way, it is the question that Maharaji asked me, before showing me that I DIDN'T know what it was like to be conscious. But I do now! And believe me, there are more subtle shades of consciousness than being merely awake or asleep. The most remarkable thing about listening to Maharaji speak is the way that however different you are from everyone else listening, somehow Maharaji's words seem to be addressed directly to YOU, and you alone. I can see that his understanding both of Knowledge and of what the rest of us need to understand in order to experience it is something special. I have heard some great speakers in my time, like Ronald Reagan, for example, and Maharaji has to be right up there among them. [IT ALSO HELPED ME A LOT TO SEE THAT MAHARAJI'S CONSPICUOUS WEIGHT PROBLEM JUST ISN'T AN ISSUE FOR HIM. THAT ALONE WAS QUITE EMPOWERING FOR SOMEONE LIKE ME, AND I QUIT WORRYING ABOUT MY PHYSICAL APPEARANCE.] [BUT I'M NOT SO MUCH OF A FOOL TO IMAGINE THAT KNOWLEDGE IS REALLY SO DIFFERENT THAN THE EXPERIENCES THAT MEDITATORS OF OTHER MYSTICAL AND SACRED TRADITIONS MUST EXPERIENCE.] And from what I have learned of the workings of the nervous system, Maharaji only shown me something I kind of always knew, namely, that it is important to relax and detach yourself from the crazy rush of modern living and go inside to find peace within whenever you get the chance. A kind of natural anesthesia, I suppose you could call it, but being awake at the same time. For some people, Knowledge seems to have spiritual side that I sort of react to a little - but not in any bad way. Maharaji told me to slow down, and I did. [They added: 'And he showed me a way too do it'] [MY CHOLESTEROL COUNT IS RIGHT DOWN NOWADAYS.] Maharaji taught me to chill out, hang loose. I am [They added: 'SO'] grateful to Maharaji for giving me that chance. [MAY EVERYBODY ELSE BE SO LUCKY, WHICHEVER PATH THEY CHOOSE TO GET THEM THERE. I AM SURE IT DOESN'T REALLY MATTER WHO YOU FOLLOW - IF ANYONE - BUT FOR ME IT HAPPENED TO BE MAHARAJI WHO GAVE THE GIFT.] My Dad says it's just some kind of self-hypnosis you could find in a book, [AND I THINK HE'S PROBABLY RIGHT. BUT WHO CARES? was changed to: 'But Maharaj ji showed me how to and it's wonderful'] (!!!!!) I started out by saying how ordinary my life must look, but, thanks a great deal to to Maharaji, it doesn't FEEL ordinary. In case anyone's still reading this, I'll finish now by saying that 'ornery ol' me' is enjoying life very much indeed. Regards, CJ Beringer Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 20:17:28 (EST)
From: Evidence (4) Email: None To: Nigel, Jim, JW, TD Subject: Don Matthews Message: The story of Don Matthews (aka. JW) is remarkably true to life. It contains only statements or expressions which at some time or other, every premie or ex-premie will have used the past and, indeed, would have been positively encouraged to use. But then, the piece is pretty long, and I suppose it was chiefly as a matter of keeping the word-count down that the editors carried out the obligatory trimming. ************************************************** My name is Don Matthews and I appreciate this Internet site, because I live in a small community (Elko, Nevada) where there are no other premies. It's great to be connected. I received knowledge 25 years ago, and because of the wonderful experience I have in practicing knowledge, Maharaji has remained the most important influence of my life for all of those 25 years. In fact, I can say that without him, life would not be worth living. Once you have experienced that true, supreme, experience that is within inside of you, it's inconceivable to me that you could ever leave it or stop holding it as the most supreme gift that you could ever receive. I grew up in a small town in the Midwest, in a Catholic household in which religion was near the center. I was a pretty happy kid, although we were definitely poor. I did well in school, and I was fortunate to get a full academic scholarship to a good college and I did very well there. But no matter how well my life was going on the surface, I always felt that something was missing. The Catholic religion stopped providing fulfillment for me and, as a result, I was kind of turned off to all religions, and I began exploring other forms of spirituality. But nothing seemed to provide any fulfillment for me. As I approached my senior year in college, I realized that all the things I had been working for were about to come true. Somehow, this terrified me, as I saw my life as a kind of prison or trap before me. Was that all there was or was ever going to be? Is this what human beings were put on this planet to do? Surely there had to be something more. I found myself praying to be shown what that 'something more' might be. One day I went into a health food store [THAT I KNEW WAS RUN BY MEMBERS OF DIVINE LIGHT MISSION, BUT I HAD NO IDEA THEY WERE FOLLOWERS OF MAHARAJI]. One guy told me he was a devotee of Maharaji, and called himself a 'premie,' which he said was a Hindi term meaning 'lover.' He began to tell be about a 14-year-old [PERFECT] master, whom he called the 'Satguru.' He told me that 'guru,' which Maharaji was called then, referred to someone who could bring you from darkness ('gu') to light ('ru'). He told me the master had come into the world to reveal truth to human beings, and that it was available to anyone who sincerely wanted it. He even showed me a picture of Maharaji, and I was astounded to see that he really did look just like a little kid! The premie also talked about four meditation techniques and that it was possible to experience the meditation, which directly connected you to the divine energy inside of you, 24 hours a day. [IN FACT, HE SAID MAHARAJI COULD SHOW ME THAT 'GOD' WAS REALLY ENERGY, INCLUDING THE ENERGY THAT CAUSED ME TO BE ALIVE, AND THAT I COULD EXPERIENCE THAT ENERGY DIRECTLY.] While all of this was a bit overwhelming to me, I could tell from looking at this guy's eyes that he had a spark of life that I hadn't seen in anyone else. At the same time, a voice inside my head said to check this out, and that I definitely should not shut the door to this possibility that what I was being told was true. I'm so glad I listened to that voice, because I could have easily just blown off what I was being told as just another religion. [I WAS INVITED TO A MEETING TO HEAR MORE ABOUT THIS EXPERIENCE. I LISTENED TO PREMIES TALK ABOUT WHAT A WONDERFUL EXPERIENCE KNOWLEDGE WAS, AND HOW GRATEFUL THEY WERE TO MAHARAJI FOR SHOWING IT TO THEM. THE SONGS THE PREMIES WOULD SING WOULD PARTICULARLY INSPIRE ME. THEY WERE SO SINCERE, HEARTFELT AND JOYOUS.] It just so happened that a big event was about to happen in Houston, Texas, at the Houston Astrodome, [CALLED MILLENNIUM AT WHICH MAHARAJI WOULD BE SPEAKING. ALL THE PREMIES I MET SAID I SHOULD ATTEND BECAUSE MAHARAJI WOULD BE REVEALING HIS PLAN TO BRING PEACE TO THE ENTIRE WORLD]. Although I really didn't have the money, had never even been on a plane before, and although I had to cut classes to do it, I made plane reservations to go. I felt I wanted to see Maharaji and hear him talk about the experience himself. It was all very exciting, but a little intimidating. What was remarkable, though, was that I felt so taken care of through the whole journey. When I got on the plane, feeling a little nervous about showing up at this big festival by myself, I was surprised to see that the very premie I knew from the health food store, was sitting in the seat in front of me. He became a kind of guide for me for the whole Millennium festival. After hearing Maharaji speak, I was sure I wanted to receive knowledge and I felt I would have sacrificed just about anything it took to get it. About six weeks later, one of Maharaji's, instructors, [ MAHATMA PARLOKANAND,] arrived in our community. I guess I wasn't ready to receive knowledge because the Mahatma told me to wait. I was kind of stubborn and I followed this ['MAHATMA became 'HIM'] to three different cities over a period of two weeks, before I finally was selected to receive knowledge. And when I did, the experience of knowledge was even more incredible than I had imagined, and yet, at the same time, it was also simpler than I had imagined. It had such a profound effect on me that I felt strongly that I wanted to practice knowledge as much as I could, and everything else in my life just seemed so much less important. I decided to drop out of college and move in with others who were practicing knowledge on a regular basis. I felt strongly that I needed the focus and inspiration of other premies around me to make the most of the gift I had been given. And I was very excited about the possibility of ['SERVING' became 'HELPING'] serving Maharaji in his mission to bring peace, through the spread of knowledge, to a very troubled world. I didn't know what I might be able to contribute in this regard, but I wanted to be available to do what I could. A few months later, I [WAS ALLOWED] moved into ['ONE OF MAHARAJI'S ASHRAMS' became 'AN ASHRAM'], [WHICH MEANS, 'SHELTER,'] which was a wonderful opportunity to focus completely on the experience, without the distractions of worldly responsibilities. I will forever treasure the time I spent there. Some years later, after Maharaji closed the ashrams, I began to live on my own, really for the first time in my life. I eventually returned to college and finished my degree. It was very difficult both financially and socially, to be back in school in my 30s, all those years later, but I had the knowledge to be my touchstone at all times. After I graduated, I and began a career, eventually getting the position of assistant controller for a state governmental agency dealing with land management. I also got married and began raising children. I have only been able to see Maharaji a couple of times in the past 15 years. [BUT THE BEAUTIFUL THING ABOUT THE EXPERIENCE OF KNOWLEDGE IS THAT IT IS COMPLETELY PORTABLE.] Through all the ups and downs of life it is always there to see you through, and it isn't dependent on where you live, or the kind of environment you live in. All I can say is that I am so grateful to Maharaji for showing it to me. Although my wife does not have knowledge, she enjoyed it when I took here to a program in California some years ago at which Maharaji spoke. She respects my feelings about Maharaji, and I feel that practicing knowledge had helped me be a better husband and father. Someday, she may decide she wants to receive knowledge herself. So, as I said, Maharaji is continues to be the most important person in my life because he's the one who showed me what the true purpose of my life is. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 20:43:55 (EST)
From: hamzen Email: None To: Evidence (1-4) Subject: Evidence 1-4 Message: Nice one all of you. I'd like to see how they'll squirm out of this one, they're even worse than I thought they'd be. Obviously no ethics, just scene changers in mr humble's rep company, but no brains either. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 20:32:52 (EST)
From: Evidence (5) Email: None To: Nigel, Jim, JW, TD Subject: Diane Tully Message: Perhaps the strangest thing about Diane Tulley's (aka. JW) story, is not the predictable cuts they made, but the fact they wanted to print it at all. If ever there was an example of a miserable fucked-up premie notenjoyinglife at all, then here she is. Unfortunately, there are probably hundreds like her. Only an editor who was truly guru-blinded could fail to see that this person needs all kinds of help she is never going get from Maharaji. She has been around for 23 years, remember. What kind of advertisement is this? Very strange and disturbing. ************************************************** Diane Tully When I received knowledge 23 years ago, I dove in head first and tried to practice as much as I could to the exclusion of everything else. But I got so easily distracted after the first year or so, and my life problems seemed to crash down on me with full force. But I have since discovered that Knowledge is still there, whether I've been focusing on it or not. It's me that keeps getting distracted, not knowledge. And these days, I still experience the same doubts about Maharaji and knowledge that I did 20 years ago. The mind never seems to go away. But if I have faith, ignore [MY] doubts and judgmental thinking, ['TRY TO MEDITATE' became 'PRACTICE'] and focus on knowledge, [MY VERY OWN BREATH] I get glimpses of a place where my problems just don't seem so important. My life has been anything but fun. I've had some good times, but I've also had several failed relationships, both marriages and otherwise, problems with drug and alcohol addiction and the effects that had on any consistent career, serious medical problems, and recurring depression. Once, I even attempted suicide. But I focused so much on all the wrong things. I focused on everything that was going wrong, and on what I desired and wrongly thought would make me happy. But through it all, I know if I had just tried a little harder and made a little more effort, [SURRENDERED TO MAHARAJI MORE,] and looked away from the negativity, I could have saved myself a lot of pain and heartache. And knowledge is what I should always be focusing on instead. I remember back in the 80s, sometimes I thought ['PREMIES' became 'PEOPLE WHO HAD KNOWLEDGE'] were being particularly crazy or cruel to me, and I couldn't understand or tolerate what seemed to be going on with power struggles ['AMONG PREMIES IN 'THE MISSION'' became 'AMONGST THEM.'] I felt the focus went away from the practice of knowledge, I was ready to chuck it all. But I would sometimes say to myself: 'Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.' When it comes to knowledge, that's something that I've told myself a number of times, and I think it was Maharaji's grace that put that thought into my head. Sometimes, the baby got thrown out anyway, but hopefully, so far, I have been able to find it again. Now, my problems are still there, but I can feel that connection to Maharaji, and even if I feel suicidal, I think about the fact that I have something to live for. I have the opportunity to see Maharaji again and experience what he has given me. [WHEN HE DANCES,] I feel lifted, and sometimes when I hear him speak, I am mesmerized and I don't even hear his words as words. My mind becomes disengaged and the sound of his voice just glides over me. I forget that so much and fall into depression, but Maharaji at least gives me the opportunity to remember. And, throughout the rest of this life, I hope I can remember not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 20:38:04 (EST)
From: Evidence (6),(7),(8) Email: None To: Nigel, Jim, JW, TD Subject: Gordon, Danny & Amanda Message: The following three contributors Gordon Byrne, Amanda Puri and Danny Paul (all aka. Nigel) said very little that was controversial about Maharaji, but each made a point of including something the revisionists would find too embarrasing to publish. For each, the scalpel was applied pretty much as predicted. If you want to read the originals in full, you had better hop over to the Elk site quickly, for by this time tomorrow they will have vanished like the melting snow. First we have phantom philosopher Gordon Byrne - a ghastly pseudo-intellectual prat who regards Maharaji as 'the ultimate philosopher' (PS to Jethro: sorry you had to waste your anger on this non-existent idiot!) Gordon, in the midst of much unstinting praise for his master, allows just the teensy-weensiest hint of a criticism to slip from his pen. Fortunately the sharp-eyed Elk editorial team were on-hand to correct his error. ************************************************** However, I remember those early days being considerably different from today. I would even suggest that all of us [, MAHARAJ JI INCLUDED,] were perhaps going a little 'over the top' in our enthusiastic proselytising. I quickly realised my academic reputation might suffer unless I reverted to something resembling my studious former self. For most philosophers the mind is the irreplaceable tool of the trade, yet here was I describing the mind as the enemy, the very thing which denied us the understanding of truth that we sought. Indeed I was 'shouting it from the rooftops', an expression I can remember Maharaji having used, but the negative reactions elicited among fellow academics from all my most valiant efforts were to prove something of a steep personal learning curve. Things are simpler nowadays. When the subject arises, my answers are straightforward; Maharaji is the giver, Knowledge is the gift, and it's all yours if you'd like to try it. ************************************************** Amanda Puri's late Mother was unordinately fond of that canvas tunnel toe-slobbering ritual known as 'darshan'. But her being dead and unable to complain, presumably made it OK for the Elks to posthumously correct her personal expression thus: ************************************************** I was too pig-headed to listen. Mother went with her new friends to festivals all over the UK and Europe. ['DARSHAN' became 'Time with a master'] she said, 'is the ultimate, most wonderful experience that anybody can ever hope for in their time on this planet'. But would I listen? I was just out of university and into my first proper job, so the idea of finding myself a spiritual path was the last thing on my mind. ************************************************** And spare a thought for poor homeless junkie Danny Paul. He spends his hard-earned pennies submitting his testimony from an internet cafe, only to see his precious master mercilessly robbed of his former divinity: ************************************************** I see red buses and puddles and people passing and doing their shopping and it feels good still. Sometimes people give their kiddies the cash and the kiddies come and buy the magazine. I love their faces and their smiles, and I feel the laughter inside again. My life feels great, in fact. I have a quite time at the shelter when Marion the warden lets me stay around in the morning after the others have gone and I do some meditation before I start the day. [THE LORD IS IN MY HEART AND THE LORD IS MY ALL TO ME AGAIN became: 'I still have Knowledge in my heart and Knowledge is my all to me again.'] Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 00:59:01 (EST)
From: jethro Email: None To: Evidence (6),(7),(8) Subject: Gordon, Danny & Amanda Message: '(PS to Jethro: sorry you had to waste your anger on this non-existent idiot!)' Well I'll call off my search for Gordon. iwas going to email all his students a copy of his life story. :>) Anyway....I can think of at least 2 premies who filt his description. I end with aquote from the from the film 'Who is GMJ'(oh and also the Bible) 'By their fruits you shall know them'. What a bunch of arseholes they are. Jonathan what would your mum say? I shall pop in and see her the next time I am in Leeds. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 20:42:03 (EST)
From: Evidence (9) Email: None To: Nigel, Jim, JW, TD Subject: Willi Kranz -You'll love this! Message: Willi Kranz (Nigel). Edits, what edits? ************************************************** The Craziest Day of My Life Willi Kranz I am Willi Kranz and I am from a village called Bad Friedrichshall near to Neckarsulm in southern Germany. I was studying in Stuttgart many years ago. I met with my friends in the student's disco bar for some drinks and also we had many philosophical discussions. My friend Gunther was always a crazy man and reading too many comical books. Always he is telling us about the new spiritual journey he has discovered, and we laughed at him. It was something different every week! When he told us about Maharaji we laughed again and told him he is really crazy. But Gunther didn't talk so much about the other people like Crowley or Timothy Leary, now. He spoke to us about nothing except Maharaji for weeks and weeks. We were really fed up! One day Gunther said he was going to see Maharaji at a festival in Italy. This was usual, because he had been already to festivals to see his master. But now there was an examination to be carried out on the same day as the big festival, but Gunther told us he didn't care about the things of this world any more. Everybody decided that Gunther should see the psychiatric, but I was not so certain. At this time I played the bass in a Christian heavy rock band but my belief [IN JESUS CHRIST] was really not so strong. I also had a big drooping moustache and my hairs around my shoulders. I was in a mess! I also hated my studies but I knew it was important to finish them and achieve a job, and Gunther understood this as well. But now he would quit the academy to see Maharaji. I did not know any Christian friend who would do this thing and I was impressed by Gunther's affirmation. [I DECIDED THAT IT WAS TIME TO ASK GUNTHER ''THE MILLION DOLLAR QUESTION''. 'GUNTHER, MY FRIEND, YOU ARE NOT TELLING ME EVERYTHING. WHO REALLY IS THE GURU MAHARAJ JI?' this became: 'I decided that it was time to ask Gunther: 'Who really is Maharaji ?'] Gunther replied: ['THAT IS A QUESTION THAT EVERY MAN AND WOMAN AND CHILD MUST ANSWER TO THEMSELVES.] 'You should come with me to [HOLI became 'the festival']. Perhaps you will find your answer there.' [I WAS GETTING REALLY FED UP NOW. I SAID 'GUNTHER, PLEASE STOP GIVING ME THESE RIDDLES. I WANT TO KNOW IF YOUR GURU IS JUST ANOTHER HUMAN LIKE US, OR IS THERE SOMETHING MORE PARTICULAR. I NEVER REMEMBER YOU DOING SUCH A CRAZY THING BEFORE. IF THE GURU IS A CLEVER TALKER YOU CAN READ HIS WORDS IN A BOOK. WHY MUST YOU GO AND SEE HIM SO DESPERATELY? I KNOW YOU VERY WELL AND I APPRECIATE YOUR OPINIONS. WHO DO YOU THINK THE GURU MAHARAJ JI IS? GUNTHER GAVE ME A DIFFERENT EXPRESSION AND SPOKE TO ME QUIETLY SO THE OTHER STUDENTS WOULD NOT HEAR HIM.] ['GOD' HE SAID.] ['YOU ARE CRAZY.'] ['BUT YOU BELIEVE JESUS WAS GOD. HE CAN COME AGAIN IN A HUMAN FORM. CAN YOU BELIEVE THIS?'] [I BELIEVED HIM, BECAUSE HIS EXPRESSION WAS SINCERE. PERHAPS I WAS A LITTLE CRAZY TOO.] I went to Holi with Gunther and listened to Maharaji instead of doing my examination. It was great! I doubted before that it might all be huckster's tricks to make some big bucks, but I knew the truth now. Maharaji's words were strong and clear and everything he said made the world become sensible for me. Before I had no purpose. Now I had a purpose which was about finding out who I really am. What other purpose can there be? When we came back to the academy it was like a miracle had happened. The academy was closed for a week because of a strike by the electricians. So the teachers moved the examination to one week afterwards. Gunther and I took the examination and we both passed it! 'That is the Grace' said Gunther. 'Take one step towards Maharaji and he will take a hundred steps for you'. Soon I received Knowledge and I was not disappointed by it. I don't like to talk about it too much because it is a personal experience. Don't talk about it, feel it. If you receive Knowledge you will know that experience too. Like the books for children always end, I live 'happily ever after.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 22:33:08 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: The Merry Pranksters Subject: Nigel, you slay me! Message: I'm dyin' here--that was hilarious!! You guys are the greatest! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 20:52:52 (EST)
From: Evidence (10)... Email: None To: Nigel, Jim, JW, TD Subject: Farus Dampier Message: Farus Dampier (which crossword enthusiasts will instantly recognise as an anagram of 'Prem is a fraud') is better-known to forum-dwellers as 'TD'. Her account of serial gurunoid Farus's journey reveals that the El-org editors are nothing if not inconsistent. Whether or not it is because three of the the four site editors are currently in India, there are all sorts of words and phrases slipping through the net that weren't allowed one month ago. For instance, Andy O'Dwyer was not allowed to mention 'surrendering the reins of his life', yet Farus does so with impunity. True to form, however, as soon as there is the slightest hint of implied criticism of Maharaji - however oblique, out comes the correcting fluid, and in come the added clarifying phrases. And remember premies, you must never give thanks for hallucinogens even if they ultimately do lead you to the lotus feet. I suspect this particular omission had less to do with any 'Just Say No' to drugs campaign than a concern that people might come to associate the master's precious gift with mundane brain chemistry phenomena. ************************************************** 'Third time lucky' by Farus Dampier (Firstly this is a great site and a great find. It's nice to actually plug in Maharaji to a search engine and get to this little 'oasis'). I am 48 years old, have known about Maharaji for 24 years, but have only had Knowledge for about 12 of those years. I guess you could say that I was one of those long-term aspirants, one of those people who would drift in and out of the premie world, battling with my life, my mind and my ego until, after a long and colourful journey, I finally received Knowledge in 1986. I first heard about Maharaji when I was studying Arts at Sydney University in the early 70s. I was living in a communal house with about 10 others, and spent an awful lot of time taking LSD, talking politics, listening to trippy music, taking LSD, eating macrobiotic food, sleeping with as many women I could, and reading every spiritual or beatnik book that was circulating in the household at the time. [TO THIS DAY, I’M REALLY GRATEFUL FOR ACID FOR SHOWING ME THAT THERE WAS A WORLD BEYOND WHAT WAS IN FRONT OF MY EYES, AND FOR A LOT OF US, IT REALLY DID START OFF THAT SEARCH FOR SOME SORT OF DIVINE EXPERIENCE THAT WE COULD HAVE WITHOUT THE NEED TO TAKE HALLUCINOGENIC DRUGS.] A couple of us, including me, had been into TM and were followers of the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi but a close friend and my girlfriend at the time, had become enamoured of the then boy guru [, GURU MAHARAJ JI AND THE DIVINE LIGHT MISSION]. I was pretty perturbed that she had chosen Maharaji [GMJ] over the Maharishi, and her sudden obsession with him and practicing 'Knowledge' eventually led us to breaking up, as she decided to leave our household and move into one of the ashrams. I realise now that that was pretty selfish of me as I had long tried to convert her to the benefits of TM, but partly I was jealous because she seemed to be having such a better experience than I was meditating. I had been to a number of satsangs and found them quite inspiring, but I wasn’t really ready to surrender and ‘hand over the reins of my life’ to Maharaji, as I couldn't see myself giving up sex and living the monastic kind of life that the premies were. I obviously had no problem with communal living, but I just wasn't ready to make the commitment that premies had to Maharaji[from GURU MAHARAJI JI]. I also think I was still internally messed up and didn’t really know what I wanted from life. After another couple of years studying and after abandoning any practice of TM, I then did what a lot of Australians did, and headed for London where I hung out in Earls Court for a number of years, working in all sorts of jobs and travelling around Europe in a kombi van. I was amazed at how many premies I would come across on my travels who was still so rapturous in their devotion and experience of Knowledge and Maharaji, but by that stage, I was more preoccupied with the ‘world outside’ then the ‘world inside’. When I headed back off to Australia, I went back home via the overland route, through the Middle East and then Pakistan and then to a place any self-respecting hippy should go to - India! It was there I experienced the next chapter in my spiritual odyssey. While in Goa and after an extremely wasted couple of months where I smoked more dope than I had while in university, I met a guy who told me about the Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh. He said he had been to his ashram in Poona and was going back there as this guy had ‘samadhi’ and was going to do amazing things for the world. I ended up going there for a spell, changing my name and even ended up eventually following him to America where he set up an Ashram in Antelope Oregon called Rajnesshpuram. I stayed for quite some time, but fortunately after my sister came and found me, I ended leaving Oregon and came back to Australia. It was a pretty strange period of my life. When I arrived back, I was feeling pretty desperate and lonely, and disorientated after the last ten or so years. I hadn't even thought much about what had happened to Maharaji [from GURU MAHARAJ JI], until I caught up with my friend who had become a premie in 1974. I told him about my experience, and he told me that the ashrams were no longer, and that Maharaji had finally rid himself of a lot of the Indian baggage that had originally been attached to the Divine Light Mission [They added: AND THAT THE MISSION TOO WAS GONE]. He said that Maharaji [They added: HAD CHANGED EVERYTHING AND] [FINALLY] made Knowledge what it should have been in the first place, just a simple process, and that it should just be about Knowledge and the Master, and that you could live your life however you liked, only the bonus was, you had this beautiful experience inside. This sounded so refreshing, as naturally I was still pretty wary as I’d had my fair share of gurus, but at the same time, I was impressed that the premies I knew, had been premies for so long, and that despite the ups and downs in their life, they had remained steadfast in their devotion to Maharaji and committed to their practice of Knowledge. I ended up sharing a house with this friend, and slowly, over time, I became an aspirant. It took me another two years, but in 1986, I received Knowledge. Receiving Knowledge was like 'cleaning my slate', being reborn after many years of aimless searching for what I really had inside of me all that time. Maharaji really did give me the key and I'm really grateful to have him as my Master. My premie friend and I joke how it took me two tries until I found my true Master, that it was a case of third time lucky for me, but thanks to Maharaji I don't have to keep on looking. My thirst is finally quenched! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 15:00:43 (EST)
From: eb Email: None To: Nigel Subject: To Nigel--I'm Your Biggest Fan Message: Dear Nigel, You are soooooo funny!!!! I'm laughing so hard at your story that I wet my pants! You're a riot!!! Your fan, eb Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 11:59:57 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Invitation to the ELKies Message: I sent this along to the folks at EnjoyingLife a few minutes ago: 'You are cordially invited to a little whine and cheese at the ex-premie site tonight, Tuesday, November 17, 1998 at 20:00 EST. Come as you are. Don't change a thing.' See you then. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 12:28:45 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Jim Subject: Unless insomnia strikes Message: I won't be a part of your fiesta ..... have a good time! Europeans sleep at that time, usually.... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 12:45:22 (EST)
From: Gail Email: None To: Jim Subject: What's going to happen? Message: You have peaked my curiosity? Is it instant deprogramming? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 15:04:51 (EST)
From: Elkie Brooks Email: None To: Jim Subject: Thanks, I'll drop by. Message: I wanna see the sunshine after the rain, I wanna see bluebirds flying Over the mountains again... whoo whoo woo... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 16:49:32 (EST)
From: Big M Email: None To: Jim Subject: Can I come too? Message: You know I don't allow satsangs/events to occur nowadays, unless I am present either in person or via video - so that means I will most certainly attend this little gathering. And I presume this Tuesday 8.00pmEST event follows a script like the one I now make sure everyone gives before introducing a video, as I can't count on premies/ex-premies to ever really speak from the heart and not mess things up. So, I'll see you there. Marolyn and the kids are really looking forward to it! JSCA Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 20:28:59 (EST)
From: Runamok Email: None To: Big M Subject: Can you play in traffic? Message: I really wish you wouldn't? Can't you go for a long walk inside your residence or something? Do you have spoil what little fellowship we have with your unwanted presence? At least if you did some service... but you never will, I'm sure. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 06:19:19 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Everyone Subject: The truth about liberation Message: For the non-lucky ones who've never had a chance to hear all the details about what's going to happen after they die, here is what God Himself said, directly from HIS mouth, un-censored ..... Mechanics of Liberation, his MOST FAMOUS question and answer session of the 70s. Here is what He said about what happened BEFORE you were born! Guru Maharaj Ji about Birth and Sin Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 09:06:58 (EST)
From: Miss Behavin' Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: The truth about liberation Message: Thanks J.-M. The truth was revealed so long ago, some of us fogot or weren't even born then. Now, it is clear and divine. Too bad everyone don't know about him yet. Let's spread the word. I'll make a point of posting ELK's address on the news. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 09:19:14 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Miss Behavin' Subject: Liberation/devotion included Message: You don't go to earth for liberation : Every benefit that you were supposed to have in liberation, you will get... away from Karma, away from actions and always in the bliss and the radiance of the Lord. That place will be given to you while you are on the earth with the Lord, with the human form, with the physical presence of the Lord. That one is also a major one! Read the whole paragraph! (It's in the 'Mechanics of Liberation') Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 10:11:03 (EST)
From: S R B Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Liberation/devotion included Message: I guess jim hession, bill patterson, mike donner, pranam bai, mataji, bubblegum jeez, and the first president of the mission somehow werent in that surrendered place enough to accept the bliss that was there in his presense. Since maharaji believed that total domination and crushing the impulses of those around him-while letting his own demons run wild-was the responsibility of the guru-lord, in order to free us to experieince the bliss that he wanted to give us, he had the mental framework (or excuses) to overcome any doubts he would have along the way as he played out this performance. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 19:15:07 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: S R B Subject: Patterson Message: Anyone know where is guy is? Has anyone been in contact with him? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 20:04:38 (EST)
From: DV Email: None To: JW Subject: Patterson Message: I heard recently that he split and joined some other group and was seen blissfully playing tablas. Shocked the hell out of a lot of folks. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 23:38:13 (EST)
From: srb Email: None To: JW Subject: Patterson Message: He is living in denver with his name listed in the phone book. I waited to write him and Jim Hession figuring I would get a better idea on how to word it after some more time. Guess it could happen soon. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 19:01:33 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: srb Subject: Patterson Message: Bill, Jim Hession is related to Robyn by marriage, or maybe you already knew that. Good opening line for a letter, though. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 20:42:09 (EST)
From: TD Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Who asks the questions? Message: JM, does it ever say who asks these questions to GMJ in the Divine Light? Is it just a transcript of one person asking the questions, and does it ever mention whether these transcripts are from one-on-one private interviews with GMJ, or are they supposedly taken from a Q & A satsang event, where lots of premies get to ask questions. To me, it reads like a one-on-one, as there seems to be a pattern in the questioning, or do you think this is an 'edited' transcript, lots of related questions from different events shoved into the one interview - a bit like those compilation videos M's so fond of... Regards, TD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 09:18:43 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: TD Subject: Who asks the questions? Message: who asks these questions to GMJ in the Divine Light? Is it just a transcript of one person asking the questions, and does it ever mention whether these transcripts are from one-on-one private interviews with GMJ, or are they supposedly taken from a Q & A satsang event, where lots of premies get to ask questions. The Indian Q&A session was typically the kind of session held on the roof of the Premnagar Ashram. Dozens of premies were present and asking the questions. The London one was typically one of those held in the London residence. To me, it reads like a one-on-one, as there seems to be a pattern in the questioning, or do you think this is an 'edited' transcript, lots of related questions from different events shoved into the one interview - a bit like those compilation videos M's so fond of... The mood at that time was certainly NOT editing anything! Even the BM's fart would be transcribed. I think the editing business started after 74 or 75, maybe 76. When the first crisis happened in DLM. The sessions used to be recorded. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 17:59:59 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: The truth about liberation Message: That was creepy and scary to read! ANyone else have that reaction? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 23:50:05 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Help me, Miss Manners Message: To the ex-premie etiquette/manners consultants Guess what I got in the mail today? The package's return address said 'Visions International'. It was a Maharaji video sent to me by my one remaining premie friend! Once she sent me a Maharaji book of quotes as a Christmas gift. What should I do???? Please, I need some serious gift etiquette advice because I love my friend very much. But I seriously think she should get her money back or give it to someone who would appreciate it more. I asked my husband if he wanted to watch it with me (to see what all the fuss was about) and he said 'Hell, no' (he's a no bullshit kind of guy). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 00:14:48 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Helen Subject: Help me, Miss Manners Message: Hi Helen - If I were you would accept this one video, but tell your friend you don't want any more. (Do you happen to know the title and date, BTW?) Also, I think that you might want even want to watch it, as watching some of the newer videos really opened my eyes to what the M trip is like these days. Also, we do pass around M videos on this site just to keep up, so if it's a new video, I and others might be interested in watching it. I know that's probably NOT what your friend intended, though! Another friend of mine got that book of M quotes and poetry (mostly blank space, really) for a present from a premie friend. Same dilemma, but he did what I suggested above - accepted the gift in the spirit in which it was intended, but was honest about his lack of interest in Maharaji. Then he sent the book to Brian :) Your etiquette advisor, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 01:05:09 (EST)
From: Runamok Email: None To: Katie Subject: Help me, Lord Message: Copy it, then send it back. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 04:48:51 (EST)
From: TD Email: None To: Helen Subject: Tape over it... Message: ...and then send it back. What about a football game (one with cheeseheads featured aplenty) or maybe just 3 hours of TV static and tell them that this is what you experience when you practice technique No.3. Sorry, this is very cynical and not very helpful. I once posted a thread about what to do with all my EV videos stashed under my bed, not to mention the EV CD's which don't add any hipness whatsoever to my CD collection, or my MJ photos... Katie mentioned the adverts page here, but in my experience, the premies don't seem to want any ex-premie giveaways - must be our 'mind' germs. A question? Does she know that you're now an ex-premie? Cheers, TD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 11:31:14 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: TD Subject: Recycling videos Message: Hi TD! Selene had the same problem with a trash bag full of videos and tapes. I am not sure if you were around then, but the videotapes had red lipstick smeared on them (not Selene's!). She sent them to me, and I sent the audiotapes to Bill, who really wanted them, and we've been sharing the videotapes around here (some of us had never seen an M video, so it was interesting). Of course that's not a good solution for you, as the postage would be out of this world, but it might work for Helen. But seriously, Helen, if it's a new video, I would like to see it (maybe). P.S. Can't believe CD or someone doesn't want your vids, TD - maybe you should post on that premie forum that CD runs. Do you know where it is? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 17:53:37 (EST)
From: TD Email: None To: Katie Subject: Recycling videos Message: Thanks Katie, yeah maybe I could send them to you via sea-mail. That'd be much cheaper, but it means you and Peter would have to amuse yourselves of an evening with some other activity until they arrived about 3 months from the time I send them! Where's CD's page? I know the premie forum which Sir D set up, but didn't know that CD had set up a renegade site. Does EV know about it, I wonder? Regards, TD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 18:25:03 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: TD Subject: Recycling videos Message: Hi TD - Originally, the site was set up by Sir David, but CD took it over as a public service. Guess it's OK with EV, since all he does is remove negative posts. People CAN talk on there though, and do, although it doesn't get the traffic that this forum does. It's at: http://www.paradise-web.com/plus_le/plus.mirage?who=premieforum I appreciate your offer of the videos, but I'm about burned out on watching them (unless they're really new), so maybe one of the premies would rather have them. (I'm glad someone else didn't snag the sarong, though!) Thanks, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 11:33:59 (EST)
From: Selene Email: None To: Helen Subject: Help me, Miss Manners Message: oooohh!! Did it have lipstick smeared all over it? I feel like an old timer after only 10 months here. I sent a bunch of those so called gifts to the expremie site Helen. Couldn't think of a better use for them. The premie friend and I were already estranged though, so it's a different thing. |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 12:39:03 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Helen Subject: Help me, Mr. Manners Message: Helen, Katie is right. I'll bet you have gotten some really awful presents, but didn't throw them back in the face of the giver and say, 'What an ugly shirt.' Or 'It's against my religion to wear plaid!' Your friend thought you would like the video, probably because he/she likes it. I think Katie is right, taking it and saying 'thank you for thinking of me' is ok. I think it's ok because you are so strong in your beliefs, or lack of them, about M. (For someone who was struggling, accepting that present might not be so smart.) It's also ok, if you want to be open about your feelings for M, to say something like: 'I just thought I'd mention that I don't believe in Maharaji anymore, but I understand that he is important to you. I appreciate how much giving this gift means to you. Thank you. I won't try to change your mind if you don't try to change mine.' I think he/she will get the hint that you don't want to receive M videos anymore. If he/she continues to send them, you can always send them around for other people to watch, like Katie mentioned. Joy had a good post to Seymour in the thread he started below which speaks to the premie friend dilemma. Anyway you play it, good luck to you. It's an uncomfortable situation. Let us know how things go, if you want to. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 12:51:32 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: VP Subject: Help me, Mr. Manners Message: Veep, do you mind if I cheese that quote right off of you? See, I can be so intense sometimes--and this friend and I had a two day fight over this once before. I will definitely take the kinder route. I know she gave me that tape out of love. Hell, Gary & I got a ton of ugly weddiing gifts and managed to be very gracious in our thank yous. Thanks, Veep. Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 12:55:53 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Helen Subject: Help me, Mr. Manners Message: I don't mind at all. Cheese away! :) Hey, I just read in your last post where you said you did NOT want to lose her as a friend and that you had been sending her mixed messages about M. I wouldn't hesitate to mention that as well. Best of luck to you, Helen! Veep Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 12:46:55 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Help me, Miss Manners Message: Thanks all for the advice. No there was no lipstick, Selene! It was a spankin' new cellophane-wrapped video called 'Finding Simplicity' or something like that (It's at home, I'm at work) It says it's for 'People who already have knowledge or who have been aspirants for awhile' or something (indicating no doubt what stage of brainwashing they are at) The real issue is that it's time to me to have a showdown with my good friend. I will be polite and follow Katie's advice, but I do need to face this friend and tell her what I really think of GM. I think I've given her mixed messages over the years about GM. She thinks that the reason I'm so turned off now is because I had such a bad aspirant experience (which she didn't have). I will write her a letter and be very clear about GM, this website, but also that I DON'T want this to come between our friendship. Give me strength, Lord, Goddess, brain, whatever is out there (or in here) I think I will watch the video with my new found eyes of clarity. And then, does anyone else want to check it out--I'll forward it. Katie , doesn't 'My last remaining premie friend' or 'the last remaining premie' sound like a good article/book title? (Kind of like 'The LAst Remaining Confederate General's Widow' or whatever that book was called) Thanks again, everyone!!! Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 16:16:45 (EST)
From: eb Email: None To: Helen Subject: MyLastRemainingPremieFriend Message: Now don't anyone go telling you-know-who that I'm writing about her again but just yesterday, she informed me that another premie doesn't feel comfortable with me, an ex, attending the same Women's Circle. I've come to realize (with the help of Miss Manners and others) that I'm not going to be able to keep up a friendship that won't allow me to speak my truth. My last remaining premie friendship appears to be ending. Well, good riddance. Homey don't play that game anymore. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 16:41:45 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: eb, VP, TD, Katie, Selene Subject: Friends Message: EB--That's what I'm afraid of, losing a 20 year old friendship. But I know you are right. It's important to speak the truth. Sigh On a totally off-topic topic, have you all heard the Linda Tripp-Monica tapes all over the media today? If that isn't the strangest distortion of a friendship I don't know what is. By the way that video is called 'Welcome Simplicity' HA! The simple life--that's the life for Maharaji!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 18:30:02 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Helen Subject: Friends Message: Helen - Re premie & ex-premie relationships: I found that I was able to stay friends with people who I had known before they were premies, but not people that I'd met afterwards. So it might not be the end of the friendship (I'm not sure about the chronology of your relationship, obviously). One of my best friends stayed a premie for five years after I left, and we are still very good friends. Our friendship was sort of tenuous during the time when she was a premie and I wasn't, but there was enough there to hold things together. I hope things work out for you - it's a tough situation, obviously. Love, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 20:38:28 (EST)
From: Selene Email: None To: Katie and all Subject: Friends Message: Katie, I have read you post before that you have been able to remain friends. And I always wonder, is it because you broke out so long ago perhaps? Once into the late 80's and now the 90's, things are very weird and I do believe premies have changed. They are more rigid, less accepting of others, and personally I think the whole lot has become weirdly neurotic. And talk about denial!!!!!! And they especially don't like recent defectees, maybe because the whole thing is so obviously crumbling. Just a thought. Not a nice one but I know you understand. Love you all. Selene Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 14:26:35 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Selene Subject: Friends Message: dear Selene - I probably should qualify my statement more. Although it is true that I was able to remain friends with all the people I knew before we were premies, I'm sure it's not true for everyone. In this particular case, the other woman and I had known each other since we were 13, went though a lot of weird stuff together (you know how it was...) and got K together at age 16. So we had a real bond apart from Maharaji, and we kept this bond somehow even when she was a premie and I wasn't - we were able to talk about other things besides M. I almost think it was a relief to her to have a non-premie friend who she could be herself with. I think our lasting friendship has a lot to do with the kind of person she is. I'm not sure how I would feel if my friend had stayed a premie into the 1990's, but Joy has premie friends so apparently it IS possible. I think it would have been harder for me, and even harder after I found this website. But again, I do think it depends on the character and personality of the particular person that you are trying to remain friends with. Plus sometimes people just 'grow out' of a particular friendship (premie or not). I know you had a rough time with losing friends when you became an ex, and I can appreciate that. In some cases, there's just no way to reconcile with the other person, which is sad. Love, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 17:35:47 (EST)
From: Gail Email: freedom@gtn.net To: eb Subject: PREMIES DON'T HAVE FRIENDS. Message: As MJ himself once said, 'you don't really have friends. You are all alone. All friends are good for is borrowing your lawnmower. They need to know where you live so they know where to pop down to when they need something.' Truer words were never spoken when it comes to the premies. It's amazing isn't it. We have wasted years and years talking to fellow premies. Now that we don't want to play the devotee game anymore, we have been banished. OH, WELL. They weren't really friends anyway. A friend is someone who will be there for you at his/her earliest inconvenience and vice-versa. It doesn't sound much like a premie to me. The only inconvenience that's worth it is the Lord of the Universe, the travel, the cult chat, the fairy tales. Everything else is inconsequential and dispensable. We used and got used. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 18:02:22 (EST)
From: Selene Email: None To: Gail Subject: PREMIES DON'T HAVE FRIENDS. Message: Much as I hate to say it, that's been my experience as well Gail. It makes *sense* to say, as Katie did, that it depends on the individuals involved, but that breaks down here, since the cult itself makes no sense. Hey, if people have been able to keep premies as friends that's fine with me. I am still healing over the way they have treated me though. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 18:16:55 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Selene Subject: PREMIES DON'T HAVE FRIENDS. Message: Selene, I was intrigued by what you said about how things changed over the years and got more rigid than they were 15 years ago. When I left in 1983, I lost most of my premie 'friends' but there were a couple of premies who split around the time I did and we remained friends. I also intentionally stayed away from a lot of premies I just didn't want to see anymore because they reminded me of the past I was trying to forget. There were a couple of other premies with whom I remained friends, but these were long distance and the relationship was strained until they left the cult too. I was an ashram premie and was transferred around the country a few times. So, it was hard to have long-term friendships anyway; it was more like a bunch of acquaintances. So, friendships were more 'easy come, easy go' anyway. So, I guess I never really had the experience of trying to maintain a friendship with a premie for very long. I guess this is partly because I didn't live in a community for enough time to develop those relationships. Maybe that made it easier for me to leave. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 19:31:06 (EST)
From: Selene Email: None To: JW Subject: FRIENDS thru the years Message: I think there was just a split that naturally happened/happens. Some of us chose to be involved in life. Some of us didn't have as much brainwashing. I don't know. And yes, moving around would definitly help diffuse any problems. I have lived in this place since 1975. God! So I saw all the interations, including this final last flicker from the 10 or so left going to videos, etc. I honestly and naively thought that the few women in that premie community were my close friends. I learned quite a few hard and painful lessons these last 2 years. And it's not just their anger at me over M. They seem really crazy, out of touch or disasociated or whatever. Personally, moving around seems an easier way to go to me. But I guess the grass always looks stronger... oops I mean greener :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 19:12:26 (EST)
From: Diz Email: None To: Selene Subject: FRIENDS thru the years Message: Hey Selene I can relate to your hurt over losing your friends. I had a similar experience - people who I thought were really close just weren't there any more, one way or another. (Though I do still have a couple of premie - women - friends, whom I value - these are people who have kids and jobs and with whom I can discuss life 'in the world'.) Hope you're finding new connections. It takes some doing after all the years of living in premie land. But is very worthwhile, I've found. There's a heap of weird and wonderful people out there. Hang in there, girl! Much love Diz Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 21:56:17 (EST)
From: Selene Email: None To: Diz Subject: FRIENDS thru the years Message: Thank you Diz. What a sweet thing to say! You know, I have been getting to know different people. And the irony is, I am always always amazed how much nicer they are than those 'evolved souls' gag that I left behind. I like having cyber friends a lot, too. It feels safe, after years of abuse. eb (I think it was eb) recently said it would be so fun to have an exp remie party and I agree. anyway, thanks. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 23:23:44 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Selene Subject: I'll come to that party ... Message: if it means I get to meet you all Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 20:22:28 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Katmandu Nov 15 Message: Here's the latest from Katmandu. Maharaji expounds on the basic formula. 'How real is your trip, Maharaji?' 'Depends on how real you want it to be'. Making The Most Of The Magic Maharaji has given Knowledge to more people this morning. There's a slightly different mood in the audience this afternoon. We all know it is the last day - and that this will be our last chance, for some time, to soak up this unique atmosphere. Please remember, before you read on, that the following is not a verbatim report. These extracts from the headset translation from Hindi to English have been put together by Jonathan, Josie, Vanessa and Mark of the enjoyinglife Kathmandu crew. THE BIG RESPONSIBILITY What a beautiful event this has been. We have talked about many things. But there are some things which, no matter how much we talk about them, we will never fully understand. The thing that we're really talking about here, is something that the intellect cannot grasp. When you wake up in the morning, what's the first thing that you think about? 'I need my breakfast?' 'I need to get ready for work?' 'I need to get ready for school?' Most of us begin each day by thinking about our responsibilities. When we wake up and see another beautiful sunrise, why don't we think: 'What a precious opportunity. Another day to enjoy.' We have a responsibility to ourselves, to enjoy this life. Each day brings a new chance; a chance to put right yesterday's mistakes by remembering what really matters. If we wake up feeling ready and willing to feel fulfilled, we can make each day a delightful one. The trouble is we forget that 'big responsibility' and we let our other responsibilities take over. From the moment we wake to the moment we fall asleep, whether we're standing up or sitting down, we worry and we worry and we worry. Even when we're asleep we dream about our problems. What kind of a life is this? We need to be aware, conscious and wide-awake. We can forget this and wander around, opening our mouths without first engaging our brains. Yet life is precious. Why waste a moment of it? GETTING ON THE WEB Ask anyone, anyone at all. 'Is time is something you should waste or is it something you should make the most of?' Everyone will give you the same answer. 'It's a gift. A gift that we should make the most of.' We all understand this, yet we don't all actually do it. We mean to, we intend to - but somehow, we become like the spider who weaves a web and then gets caught up in it. And then, we become stuck in this web. Eventually we realise that we are stuck and we try to escape. Like a drunken elephant, intoxicated by its own ignorance, we career clumsily from one difficulty to another. Only when we crash into something really painful do we finally find the humility to say: 'Oh why am I so unhappy? Somebody please help me. Is there a purpose? Is there a meaning? Is there a point to any of this?' In Asian culture there are many different deities. One is the god who 'protects' the weary and the weak. If such a god exists, why isn't he there for all of us? Why should that god only be a friend of the weary? Perhaps it's because, if you're not weary, you don't need him. You only become interested in calling on such a god when you're feeling fed up. And what is it that makes us feel fed up? People think that if something gives you joy today, it is a true source of happiness. But if something gives you joy today and pain tomorrow, how can that really be a true source of happiness? We mistake a temporary source of joy for a permanent source of joy. And then, we become confused. BORN TO BE HAPPY Some people believe in karma. What I say is that you should think about this lifetime, because this is the only lifetime that you can be sure you have. When I say this, some people ask: 'If there's no such thing as karma, how come some people are rich and some people are poor?' I reply: 'That's not the issue.' No matter how much money you have, you will always be poor if you don't know how to truly enjoy your life. WHAT WILL TOMORROW BRING? We all worry about what tomorrow will bring. What will tomorrow be? It will be another today. If you have a way to appreciate the importance of each moment, you can wake up in the morning, feel the joy in your heart and know that this day brings you an opportunity to feel fulfilled. You don't have to keep living for some mythical day in the future when 'it's all going to be OK'. Wake up. Look within. See the magic. See the power of the force that is keeping you alive. Be glad of it. That will make you happy today. And that will make you happy tomorrow too. LIFE IS A GIFT To enjoy this precious experience there's no need to burn incense, no need for ritual, no need for ceremony, no need to subscribe to a belief system. There's no need to make a sacrifice, no need to fulfill a set of difficult conditions. All you have to do is honour the simple idea that life is a gift. Some people think that if they want to pay homage to the creator they must make an offering. They must give something up. They must take some item and dedicate it as a sign of their gratitude. But what if you have nothing to give? If you have nothing to give, you can only give your heart, your love, and your sincere appreciation. What else can the creator possibly want by way of acknowledgement? Why offer a flower? The creator made that flower! Why does the creator need to be given it back? So just feel love. Feel love from deep within yourself. Feel love in your heart. THE LOGIC OF LOVE Love is something that you cannot explain. Does a mother need to think: 'Do I love my child? Should I love my child?' No. She just feels that natural bond from somewhere deep within herself. We need that same bond with the energy that is keeping us alive. Not a theoretical love. Not the kind of love that you 'think you ought to feel'. A love that stems from real inspiration and appreciation. Knowledge is a gift of love. Accept it in that spirit. RISING TO THE CHALLENGE It is easier to climb a mountain than to recognise every breath for the gift that it truly is. But you can begin to rise to that challenge, if you make an effort to be grateful for this life. 100% PROOF People want to see proof. They say to me: 'Show me that your Knowledge is real. Show me that it works.' I say: 'Show me your thirst.' LONGING AND BELONGING We all feel a sense of belonging to something or someone. 'I belong to my wife.' 'I belong to my husband.' 'I belong to my business.' 'I belong to my child.' Few and far between are the people who know that they belong to their own hearts? MORE THE MERRIER I have given many beautiful Knowledge sessions lately. I watch people sitting there in these sessions and I know Knowledge does work. Those four techniques do work. There's no doubt about that. But will it work for you? And will you w ork at it? You can only get out as much as you put in. Bring a spoon and you will get a spoonful. Bring a bucket and you will get a bucketful. How far you want to take this, how much you want to take from this, is entirely up to you. There's nothing that I can do about that. It's a shame really. It's a shame that people don't have a light on their head to indicate how ready they are, how thirsty they are, how sincere they are in their hunger to experience this deep inner joy. Why do some people stop practicising Knowledge? It's not obligatory to practise Knowledge. But it is a delight to practice Knowledge. But some people choose to do what they choose to do. WINNING THE LOTTERY OF LIFE Imagine that you have bought a lottery ticket. You fill out all the numbers and you realise that you have won millions of dollars. But then you can't find your ticket. You know you had it, you know you have won, so you hunt and you hunt and you hunt, but it's too late. The deadline has passed; you can no longer claim your prize. Then one day you go for a walk and you find the ticket in your jacket. How are you going to feel then? If you have Knowledge, you have a great prize. But it's no good to you unless you claim it. ENJOY THIS LIFE Take full advantage of this life, you don't know if you'll get another. People believe that they will get more lives, but how do they know? They don't know. We just don't know either way. So let's assume that this is the only life, because if you make that assumption, you can't lose. If you have Knowledge, get involved. Practice Knowledge, share the joy of your experience, and make it your priority. Squeeze every last drop of juice out of the orange of life. If you don't have Knowledge then climb every mountain, look wherever you can for true satisfaction. If you don't find it, I'll be here when you come back. So, enjoy this life and be fulfilled. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 23:16:59 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Jim Subject: Idealism vs. Reality Message: Reading through this, I realized why Maharaji's message has the potential to make people unhappy. When you wake up in the morning, what's the first thing that you think about? 'I need my breakfast?' 'I need to get ready for work?' 'I need to get ready for school?' Most of us begin each day by thinking about our responsibilities. When we wake up and see another beautiful sunrise, why don't we think: 'What a precious opportunity. Another day to enjoy.' Okay, life is great and it's very important to enjoy it, but there ARE responsibilities in life. If you have kids, you have to think about how to care for them. If you have a job, you have to think about how you are going to do that. I'm not saying that you can't enjoy your kids or your job, you should. But the message that you shouldn't worry about anything or think about responsibilities is just not realistic. It's easy to sell idealism. It sounds great. Some of us believe in these ideas...in theory. But a lot of it doesn't work in the real world. Just my opinion anyway. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 23:42:59 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: VP Subject: Idealism vs. Reality Message: Yes everyday as my eyes flutter open, I stretch my little arms and hop out of bed, then I sing a happy song to Mr. Sun. Grouchy old Mr. Mind doesn't have a chance! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 01:21:25 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: What a fucking ignoramus!! Message: This burns me. Maharaji actually thinks you can spend your life trying to force an emotion: So just feel love. Feel love from deep within yourself. Feel love in your heart. Is this not absoltuely amazing? Is this not the fakest thing you've ever heard in your entire life? See, the fat, greasy hamster confuses feelings that spring from who knows where (some evolutionary basis perhaps?) like maternal love with manufactured garbage. Not only is he wrong but tomorrow, at 5:00 p.m. PST (8:00 EST and I have no idea what time over there. Oh, 7:00 I think in Hawaii. They're not on Daylight Savings, I don't think. Does anyone know? This is critical. We have to synchronize our watches, brothers and sisters.) anyway, some time tomorrow anyone interested will get just a taste, a whiff, if you will, a soupcon of just how crazily fake this whole stupid, stupid, stupid, dumb, dumb, dumb, guru trip really is and the price people pay to play along. THE LOGIC OF LOVE Love is something that you cannot explain. Does a mother need to think: 'Do I love my child? Should I love my child?' No. She just feels that natural bond from somewhere deep within herself. We need that same bond with the energy that is keeping us alive. Not a theoretical love. Not the kind of love that you 'think you ought to feel'. A love that stems from real inspiration and appreciation. If that isn't 'theoretical', bub, I don't know what is. YOU ARE SO STUPID, FATSO!! YOU ARE SO INCREDIBLY DUMB!! I FEEL LIKE I'M IN LOVE WITH KNOWING THAT YOU'RE REALLY SCUM!! (Hey, there's a poem for the 'Expressions' page.) It is easier to climb a mountain than to recognise every breath for the gift that it truly is. But you can begin to rise to that challenge, if you make an effort to be grateful for this life. You mean it's easier to be natural than to be fake? Yeah, I agree. Next? People want to see proof. They say to me: 'Show me that your Knowledge is real. Show me that it works.' I say: 'Show me your thirst.' And I say tune in tomorrow. Nothing earth-shattering. Just another brick in the wall. HEY, TEACHER ... LEAVE THE KIDS ALONE!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 10:01:08 (EST)
From: srb Email: None To: Jim Subject: What a fucking ignoramus!! Message: you posted this on tuesday and said 8est tomorrow. I remember you said tuesday. guess you fergot the time. Or the forum isnt on your local time. I will miss it by two hours. perhaps this is a live visit by someone and i hate to miss the action. ugh, late ill be. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 11:41:48 (EST)
From: gerry Email: None To: all Subject: What the BeaMer really means Message: When he says ''thirst,'' such as in ''Show me your thirst for Knowledge,' what he really means is ''Show me your gullibility and superstition, and I'll be able to gauge how susceptible you are to my attempts to enslave you for my personal benefit.'' THIRST=GULLIBILITY Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 11:24:39 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: Katmandu Nov 15 Message: I have given many beautiful Knowledge sessions lately. I watch people sitting there in these sessions and I know Knowledge does work. Those four techniques do work. There's no doubt about that. But will it work for you? And will you w ork at it? You can only get out as much as you put in. Bring a spoon and you will get a spoonful. Bring a bucket and you will get a bucketful. How far you want to take this, how much you want to take from this, is entirely up to you. There's nothing that I can do about that. It's a shame really. It's a shame that people don't have a light on their head to indicate how ready they are, how thirsty they are, how sincere they are in their hunger to experience this deep inner joy. Here it is, the scam in all it's glory. If you don't experience that 'deep inner joy', well then, it's your fault. Don't even consider that there's no 'deep inner joy' to be had unless there's a good reason for it. Just breathe....... ahhh........ feel the joy, the love........ ahhh......... the peace... the happiness...... oooh....... so good........ yummy. Can't you just feel it? No? Well then you're just not thirsty enough. Too bad. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 12:37:38 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Jim Subject: Katmandu Nov 15 Message: When you wake up in the morning, what's the first thing that you think about? 'I need my breakfast?' 'I need to get ready for work?' 'I need to get ready for school?' Most of us begin each day by thinking about our responsibilities. From the moment we wake to the moment we fall asleep, whether we're standing up or sitting down, we worry and we worry and we worry. Even when we're asleep we dream about our problems. Funny how Maharaji still has this weird dualistic philosophy that life's responsbilities are 'problems.' Maybe having a job would be a BIG problem for Maharaji, but I think many people do not view their lives this way. It's like M says there is your life, your responsiblities and the rest and THEN, on the other hand, there is knowledge which is better and more real. He is so steeped in that Hindi view of life and it's so contradictory. In this case he's not talking about 'heart' and 'mind' dichotomy, but it's the same concept. It reminds me of reading that Lives entry over on enjoyinglife. I think her name is Diane Tully. She has a really difficult life with lots of 'problems.' Then, she adds to her problems by beating herself over the head for not practicing knowledge enough, because she believes this kind of crap Big M spews. Instead of knowledge making her happy, or making her enjoy her life, it's just something to believe in, like a fairy tale, and then that belief provides ammunition for her to fight with her own self creating even more frustration. No, thank you. It is easier to climb a mountain than to recognise every breath for the gift that it truly is. But you can begin to rise to that challenge, if you make an effort to be grateful for this life. Here's another contradiction. He always talked about how easy it is to practice and experience knowledge, but actually, he says it's easier to climb a mountain. The way to overcome this great difficulty, which conveniently creates an exhaulted role for him, is to make effort to be grateful. And whom to you be grateful to? And how? This is just a re-packaging of what M used to say about how it's only through devotion (to him) that you can get to the destination. Now it's called gratitude instead of devotion, but it's the same idea, really. The only way to REALLY be able to experience knowledge is to be GRATEFUL to Maharaji. This is usually done through donating money or helping him build yet another palace to live in. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 13:35:22 (EST)
From: Joy Email: None To: JW Subject: Katmandu Nov 15 Message: Joe, that last paragraph of yours was absolutely brilliant and right on. You have essentialized the BM's whole trip in a nutshell. (But can Brian please fix the italics?) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 14:25:12 (EST)
From: To Brian (sorry) Email: None To: Joy Subject: Katmandu Nov 15 Message: Brian, sorry, I forgot to close the html at the end of the second paragraph of my post. Mea Culpa. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 19:24:58 (EST)
From: Forum Elves Email: None To: To Brian (sorry) Subject: Fixed it, Joe Message: For shame, Joe! 20 Hail Marys, or 10 whacks with a ruler, or whatever else you Catholic boys do for punishment. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 14:30:44 (EST)
From: srb Email: None To: Joy Subject: Katmandu Nov 15 Message: Got to agree Joy. As I beamed into the site I thought 'I hope JW has weighed in' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 17:29:24 (EST)
From: TD Email: None To: JW Subject: I can relate to Diane Message: Sometimes, I used to feel guilty ALL day if I hadn't practiced Knowledge properly that morning, if I'd fallen asleep or my mind had been particularly active while doing it (which was usually when I'd HAD a good nights sleep and so was extra alert). I always thought I was doing K an injustice when I didn't do it 'properly', and then those guilty feelings would make me even more reliant on Knowledge or going to see a video because when I did practice it properly or I heard M say about re-committing to K, somehow my guilt would be alleviated and once again I owed all positive feelings I experienced to M & K! The whole thing was like a vicious cycle, the same kind of experience you can have when trying to stick to a strict diet. I wish I could e-mail Diane or communicate with her over on ecl.org on their non-existent forum, just to let her know how much I feel for her, although I would also have to tell her that her suicidal tendencies would probably diminish if she flicked the Big M. I know mine certainly did. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 16:28:25 (EST)
From: hamzen Email: zen@hamzen.demon.co.uk To: Everyone Subject: A bit late but... Message: Back on-line after a few weeks, flicking through some posta and I see I've missed what sounds like an interesting thread on brain chemistry, something to do with Tom Wolfe. To save time does anyone remember the dates it was around, thread titles etc? Re Ramdass/Be Here Now- bloody hippy culture has a lot to answer for, full-stop. That grateful dead/acid/pranksters/intuition/synchronicity thing, gobbled a lot of us up in one way or another. A whole sub-generation completely out of it's depth when it headed for the mystic east. What a mish-mash came out of it, good and bad. Good to be back but how does one learn the discipline to keep it to an hour a night? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 16:40:48 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: hamzen Subject: A bit late but... Message: FYI--there's an article on Tom WOlfe in the Wash Post's STyle section today. I'm sure it's on the web. Trying to keep the Forum to an hour a night is a challenge. When you figure it out let me know. I know I've had to stop trying to read everything on here because my big behind was getting even bigger sitting in this chair too much, instead of going to the gym. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 16:56:06 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: hamzen Subject: Hey, Ham Message: Good to hear from you again. Keeping it to an hour at a time, I don't even attempt. I just let it play out for as long as I'm interested. Trying to force yourself to visit the forum for only so long per day is a self-imposed restraint that I've never succeeded at. I gave up trying. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 19:35:46 (EST)
From: Liz Email: None To: hamzen Subject: A bit late but... Message: Having only recently joined the forum I am none too pleased to hear that you old hands are still grappling with the amount of time you spend at this site. I thought it was only happening to me because it was such a mind-blower to find fresh information like this. Perhaps I should give it away now before this site becomes as addictive as M's satsangs. Are we all addictive personality types? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 23:24:17 (EST)
From: Big Bad Wolf Email: None To: Liz Subject: A bit late but... Message: Why do we spend too much time here? Because it's fun. Beats the hell out of eyeball pushing, eh? Did any of you have to force yourselves to practise K? (Bet the answer's 'yes') Do you have to force yourselves to come here and read? Hmmmmmmmmmm Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 01:07:05 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Big Bad Wolf Subject: Here's the address Message: http://www.forbes.com/asap/120296/html/tom_wolfe.htm (Sorry for not making a link but it seems so much easier to just cut and paste addresses into the address space on the browser.) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 18:42:11 (EST)
From: eb Email: None To: Liz Subject: A bit late but... Message: Hi Liz, When I first started reading the archives and the active posts, I couldn't get enough. It was like 20 years of programming started unravelling all at once. At first I was fearful that something bad would happen to me; I lurked for at least 6 months before I ever posted anything. When I did start posting, I felt a lot of relief and support. I kept the forum on all day at work and often would check in at night from home too. The obsession wore off after a few months, and now I check in about 3 times a week. I read my favorite posters and comment if I think my words might help. I like the chat room idea that And On Anand Ji set up. Also, a party of exes would be a blast, IMO! I'd love to meet everyone in person. This forum has helped me in so many ways, and I'm really grateful you're all here. Love, eb Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 09:47:03 (EST)
From: stark raving burke Email: None To: hamzen Subject: A bit late but... Message: My bleary eyes can relate to your hour long attempts. I post less because it takes up reading time. plus, typing is slower than reading. although I am going through a bit of a change and will probably end up typing at length again. glad to read you again. I miss folks when they sit back. Mike seems to be sitting back as well as some others. Do you get the mailings from elan vital? They are offering a t shirt with www enjoyinglife.org printed on it with the first page of that web site printed on it. maharaji designed that page. He used to design some of the other computer art on cassettes. Just order 15$ of brick a brak and the shirt is FREE! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 10:35:24 (EST)
From: srb Email: None To: stark raving burke Subject: the enjoying life t shirt Message: It is a smart attempt to bypass search engines that might lead someone here. in reference to the above post. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 20:13:50 (EST)
From: hamzen Email: None To: hjlbbwjsrb Subject: H/J/L/BBWOLF/JIM/MRBURKE Message: Helen-too long here was helping me to forget eating, I'm certain I got thinner! Jerry-it's good to be back but it's obvious you don't work for local government, we work for love not money you know, well that's what my boss said to me the other day! Another three months on the net like the last three and the next e-mail could be from court. I don't know whether to blame it on this site or my jeans, wadya reckon? Liz-I reckon the addiction is because everyone here is a hippie with new-age tendencies, whether they're old or young hippies, definitely suckers for a certain vibe. I blame it all on the Grateful Dead more than Ram Das. Psychedelia/synchronicity & intuition was the beginning of the rot. BBW-When I'm in meditation mode I always found light or no.1 technique worked well, but then I also found I could get all the experiences of altered mind states without even doing the techniques physically. Mr Burke, what we need is cheap voice activated word-processing software that is accurate and available now, preferably for a mac.Anyone know of any? TYPING IS BORING! Haven't been sitting back, been sitting broke is nearer the mark. Sorry British Telecom, will be on to you soon, I will pay, promise. Jim, thanks for the address, can't wait to read Nader's bit, but in all honesty I was really disappointed with Wolfes article. So much so that I've got to give you a decent devil's advocate response, bearing in mind I also owe you a synopsis of Maturana and Varelas position. As soon as poss. Sounds like a lot-of-smiles birthday do, glad you had a good one. Ham Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 20:17:31 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: hamzen Subject: Ham, I'M With You Message: I have to agree re the Wolfe article, but then you probably already read my critique of it in the earlier thread, as well as the response I got. Looking forward to reading your views. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 21:21:14 (EST)
From: hamzen Email: None To: JW Subject: Ham, I'M With You Message: No I missed that, only came across a couple of passing references to the thread. Any dates? Although some dried hunza apricots would go down a treat as well. Now if mr.straightforward had done his job properly and believed in his product, everybody would be veggie now and there would bound to be a 24/7 wholefood shop right near me, right now. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 08:16:04 (EST)
From: op Email: None To: all Subject: a bit late Message: Hi all: Just wanted to clarify a few things that were posted on what is now the inactive forum. Please forgive me for posting something unrelated to this thread, but I was away when the original thread was active and don't want to start a new one myself. I chose this thread because of its original title, and obviously I'm a bit late myself... About M's invitation to premies during the Gulf War: He did actually invite people to come to the Malibu residence and camp out there for the duration. I didn't hear of anyone taking him up on it, but the invitation was extended. About South Africa: M DID go to South Africa during the reign of apartheid. In 1972, when his first trip there was planned, he was informed that there would be three separate events - one for blacks, one for Indians, one for whites. Nothing doing, he said. Either everyone sits together or I don't go. The organizers gulped and hired the hall, without letting the authorities know that this would be a 'mixed' event. He went, there was NO segregation, and the government didn't respond. Why there was no government reaction, I don't know - whether it was fear of recrimination from DLM or silent agreement to quietly push the incident under the rug, since it was a peaceful and non-political event. About Malaysia, Mexico, etc.: first, a history lesson: when M went to Colombia (his one and only trip there), he was threatened at gunpoint, there was an attempted kidnapping of his daughter, and there were several thefts. There have been other times when M's life has been actively threatened. The unrest in Malaysia and the criminal actions against foreigners in Mexico would NOT have produced a life-threatening situation for M, but there are many people who love to travel around the world to see him, and there could have been potential hazards for them. I know you would rather not believe this, but M is quite aware of the safety of those who attend the events and this was his main concern. (Flashback to Prem Nagar 1971: if you recall the fireworks display M put on, he stopped shooting off firecrackers & rockets when premies got too close, and continued only after people had moved a safe distance away. This may seem only superficially related, but I saw how quickly he reacted, and it made a big impression on me that 13-year-old M was so concerned for others' safety. I've seen this kind of action repeatedly over the years. Perhaps amid all their memorabilia, some of the exes have the safety handbooks that are standard issue for those who organize events.) This is just for clarification, btw - I don't plan on participating in an argument or heavy discussion about pros and cons or M's hidden motives. I don't have the time or energy to spend bickering about hidden meanings behind what appear to be pretty straightforward actions. aside to Ms. Aenid Blighted: Will there ever be another chapter of the Fearless Five saga? I'm dying to find out how their journey ends. You've got all the lurkers at the edge of their seats. Or did I miss an entry while I was gone? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 15, 1998 at 14:56:57 (EST)
From: Barney Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Until Tuesday? Message: I sure hope this Tuesday thingy is good, as I have suffered greatly after re-installing Windows after installing some bogus hardware that whacked my system. Is it gonna be better than the Geraldo Rivera Special of opening of Al Capone's vault? Any hints? Can't wait! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 15, 1998 at 16:06:55 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Barney Subject: Until Tuesday? Message: Is it gonna be better than the Geraldo Rivera Special of opening of Al Capone's vault? Any hints? Can't wait! Hey, that's funny. Okay, hints. No, sorry, can't do. No hints. I mean if you wanna give ME a hint that's one thing but no, I'm gonna have to pass on that. Sorry. No hints. Hey, it's not THAT big a deal anyway, you know. Just kind of neat. Like it's not world peace or nothing. It's not the second coming. It's...well...you'll see. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 15, 1998 at 14:35:39 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Maharaji nov 14 katmandu Message: Here's the latest report from Katmandu. Talk about a paen to ignorance. This is as insidious as it is inspid. It's like the attack of the killer clown. 'The Need For A Mirror First reports from the Kathmandu Knowledge centre are that Maharaji gave Knowledge to 938 people this morning. Later today, he spoke to an audience of about 16,000 people for an hour. Local people have a special name for this event. They call it the 'Sharad Ustav', or winter festival. The western visitors to this event call it 'Kathmandu 98' but in the Nepalese calendar, today's date is Kartik 29 2055. Notes from this evening's translation were taken by David Sholdice and written up by the enjoyinglife Kathmandu crew - Mark, Josie, Vanessa , David and Jonathan. The following extracts do not comprise an official record of the event, but hopefully they reflect its essence: UNDERSTANDING REALITY We try to understand reality with illusion. We try to understand the immortal with the mortal. But it won't work. To do this, you need a particular, specific tool. A ladle will help in cooking food but it is of no use if you want to hammer a nail into a wall. You need a hammer for that. You can't use a hammer to cook food. You can't dig a hole with a spoon. You can't mend a broken bus with a ladle. No human can stay alive forever, that's a law of nature. That which is created will one day be destroyed. So, with this mortal brain, how do we capture the immortal? NO NEED TO GET UPSET A tiger is walking through the jungle. He sees a baby deer and pounces on it. 'Who's the king of this jungle?' he asks, 'Who's the strongest? Who's the best?' 'You are!' says the terrified deer and the tiger walks away delighted. Next he sees a baby pig. The same scene is played out, with the same response. The tiger is now feeling exhalted. He poses the same question to a rabbit and gets the same answer. His ego is enormous by now. When he meets a huge elephant he has no fear: 'Who's the king of the jungle?' The elephant picks the little tiger up in his trunk, lifts him off the ground and throws him around and bashes him hard on the ground. The hurt, dazed tiger can hardly stand up but he manages to shout after the elephant: 'Just because you don't know the answer to the question, there's no need to get upset!' MANIPULATING We see the creator as compassionate or merciless, depending on our mood. The creator is neither. We project our own ideas. We fall asleep, so we imagine that the creator falls asleep. We manipulate situations to our own ends so we imagine that the creator does the same. How can we open our minds to a wider understanding of the force which has created this universe? Our natural desire is to wrap everything up in a definition. By doing this, we keep a true understanding of the creator at arms length. And then we get stuck. We let our hearts fall asleep. We dwell on the past and on the future. We tend to associate pain with the past and hope with the future. COUNTING CHICKENS A poor man, wondering how to be rich meets a wealthy man carrying some buckets. The rich man says: 'Carry two of my buckets and I will pay you.' The delighted poor man takes the two buckets and starts walking down the road. As he's walking along he imagines himself buying eggs with the money he is sure he will get from the rich man. He imagines the eggs hatching, giving him chickens which will then produce more eggs. Next, he imagines a big chicken farm which he will then sell. This is the power of imagination. He hasn't yet earned one penny but his imagination runs everywhere, as if it had climbed on a horse. He then imagines selling the chicken farm and buying a goat farm. He'll then have a big field, a house and he will marry the most beautiful woman. Later, his children will crawl all over him calling: 'Papa.' They will want toys, but he will push them off saying: 'Not now.' While he is thinking all this, he is getting deeper and deeper into his dream. As he pushes his imaginary children away from him, he swings his arms... and drops the buckets! The buckets break and the rich man chases him angrily down the road. The past has failed and the future is unreal. REALITY CHECK What is real? Breath is real. You think that this world is your reality. But in the true reality, there's only one thing ever going on. You're alive, you are breathing and you need to understand that. HIDE AND SEEK If what we are looking for is within us; why do we need Knowledge? The answer is simple. Your eyes see everything, but to see themselves they need a mirror. Through your little eyes you can see huge mountains. You don't need a mirror for that. But you do need a mirror if you want to look within. Knowledge is that mirror. The joy at the heart of life is not hidden from us. It is in such a place that whenever you want to see it, you can. Once you know where to look, you will find that, even when you want to forget the magic that exists within... you can't! Some people believe that life is about suffering - and that we'll only understand what it has all been in aid of when we die. Life becomes very painful when you start thinking like that. IN THE HANDS OF THE POTTER Water and dirt make mud. But in the hands of a potter, that mud becomes clay. When the potter first makes a pot, it is still dirty. It has to be baked and then removed from the fire before it is strong and ready. But now, it isn't dirty any more. Indeed, it will hold clean water and it will keep it clean. Knowledge is like that process. It helps us to transform something within us which is muddy and confused... and to turn it into something clear. What is aspiration? It is thirst and hunger. If you have no thirst it doesn't matter whether there is water or not, and the same with hunger. In my life I want to experience joy. If I do not have a real thirst for inner joy, Knowledge will not benefit me. The more you fill your heart, the more you can fit into it! The heart has no limit, no boundary. Once you have experienced it, can you leave it? No. All you want to do is fill it more. What else grows like that? Maybe pain does. But there's a limit to how much pain a person can feel. There's no limit though, to the amount of love you can experience. PRICELESS People invite me to come and speak in their area, but I always say: 'If you want to let people know about my message, show them a video first. Make sure they understand what this is about.' I am not selling Knowledge. I don't want to put posters up saying: 'Get your Knowledge here. Only 15 rupees, 20 rupees, 40 rupees!' Knowledge is free. The poor don't have to pay and the rich don't have to pay. Today there was a Knowledge session and tomorrow there will be another. In Delhi, last week approximately 8,000 people received Knowledge. Around 4,000 in one session and over 4,000 in another. And at the event a few days later we still had approximately 7,000 people waiting to receive Knowledge. When I give Knowledge to people I don't need to know their names or the work they do. All I need to know is that they are human and that they are thirsty for this experience. I don't need to know what they believe in. We make all these walls, we make all these definitions, but a human is a human first and foremost. We judge people on appearance. Is he rich, is he poor? Has he torn clothes? What does it matter? Is this person a human being? That's the only requirement. If you want to receive Knowledge, first answer your questions. Listen. Not to the words but to the message behind the words. This is a process of communication from one heart to another. THE WRONG ROAD TO HEAVEN In India and Nepal people just drive on any old side of the road. They think they can go wherever they want as long as they honk their horns. And people just walk right through the middle of this! Sometimes I want to go up to those people and say: 'Do you realise how lucky you are to be alive? Don't you realise that the human body is a precious gift?' It is almost as if they want to commit suicide. They should really get out of this kind of queue for heaven - the road is for cars!' INSIDE OUT Knowledge offers a different perspective on life. Most people, when they want to be entertained, open their eyes and start looking at things. But with Knowledge, if you really want to experience something special, you have to close your eyes and go inside. Knowledge is not something you believe in, it's something you experience. To forget this is to make all the preparations for a marriage ceremony but then forget to invite the bride! SQUEEZE THE ORANGE Do you embrace those you love? Then why not embrace your own heart? Don't point your finger towards heaven looking for the answer - turn that finger around and point it at your own heart. Accept this life and the magic that is there for you in every moment. Squeeze the orange hard so that all the juice comes out. Squeeze every last drop of joy out of every precious moment.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 15, 1998 at 20:56:20 (EST)
From: TD Email: None To: Jim Subject: Maharaji nov 14 katmandu Message: Do you think M suffers from altitude sickness in Kathmandu? I can sense a slight pressure on his brain in that satsang. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 15, 1998 at 22:11:41 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Jim Subject: Maharaji nov 14 katmandu Message: I am not really into reading Maharaji's satsangs, after all, I stopped believing in him years ago. However, I did scan the transcript and it seems clear to me that Maharaji is only speaking in safe, generalities here. I wonder if he has ever had any experience from meditation. I mean, do you notice how he never talks specifically about any of the techniques and his experience of them? He never talks about seeing light or hearing music. He never actually talks about his secret word (i.e. meditating on the breath) or doing the nectar technique. One could suppose that he knows nothing of the techniques because he doesn't practise them. If he does ever practise them, he never talks about it. And what's all this talk of immortality? This from the guy who admits that he doesn't know what happens after we die. And what's the big deal about us breathing? We won't be breathing after we've died so our breath is hardly immortal. Perhaps the Indians can relate to all of this and for someone looking for the ultimate truth, Maharaji has certainly put the right words in there. Immortality, gift of a human body etc. it's normal Hindu stuff. After 40 you kind of get fixed in your ways. Maharaji can probably keep saying the same old stuff (he's had plenty of practise) and keep the crowds happy, in India anyway. He knows what to say to them. He was born into this and he's worked himself comfortably into the job. The Hindu Indians believe in gurus and will throw their last Rupee to them. But I don't think this same formula is going to work any more in the West. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 10:19:17 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Maharaji nov 14 katmandu Message: And what's all this talk of immortality? This from the guy who admits that he doesn't know what happens after we die. And what's the big deal about us breathing? We won't be breathing after we've died so our breath is hardly immortal. There is a contradiction in M's satsang here, isn't there? He says we can't capture immortality with our mortal brains but he expects us to believe that our mortal breath is the pathway to immortality. Anybody who thinks about what M says will find more holes in his argument than you can count. Lucky for M, he's convinced premies that thinking is worthless on the path to enlightenment. If he were to encourage THINKING about what he says, I don't think he'd get very far. His whole existence is dependent upon convincing us that only through 'feeling' can we understand him, his heart to ours. Of course, if you don't 'feel' this is true, you just haven't realized it yet, or so M would have us believe. It's all a smokescreen, a perfect scam. M fights concepts with concepts. He'll tell you that whatever concepts you have of immortality are false, that immortality is beyond concept and he has the key, which is quite simply, focus on your breath and let come what may. What a concept. Who has this really worked for? Not me. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 11:06:15 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Jerry Subject: After we die Message: This from the guy who admits that he doesn't know what happens after we die. This absolutely untrue. HE KNOWS what happens, I have a published question & answers where he explains it in length ! He doesn't want to talk about it in public anymore, that's all. OK, I guess this has to be the next page on my site! Please wait for 1 or 2 days, I think the stuff is quite long. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 12:08:59 (EST)
From: Sir D Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Jean-Michel Subject: After we die Message: You mean he THINKS he knows. I know in the past he did used to go on about such things. All Hindu beliefs etc about reincarnation, liberation, devotion etc. But you can read the same thing in any book on Hinduism. It's standard Hindu teachings. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 12:25:24 (EST)
From: Sir D again Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: JM Subject: After we die Message: I remember reading a satsang by Maharaji's father where he said that the most that brave soldiers could expect would be to be reborn as a lion or a tiger. Maharaji used to say similar things when he was young but later on he took the animals out of the equation. For years I used to believe that he actually knew what he was talking about - like he was the Lord. His 1971 'Mechanics of Liberation' satsang and questions and answers convinced me at the time that he and I had been born in the same world together so that I could be his devotee. I believed this for years. As soon as I realised that he wasn't the Lord, I realised he had just repeated normal Hindu philosophy with a bit of his own theory added to it. I realised that he hadn't got any more idea than anyone else about anything. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 13:27:50 (EST)
From: Here is what M said Email: None To: Sir D Subject: about it! Message: I know everybody is impatient knowing what's going to happen after. Here is the 1st part of M's astounding interview in 1971 (published in Divine Light Magazine), soon online in full on my site: D Light Page 81 Q: GMJ, is there such a thing as original sin? There is something like sin but don't know what is original. . Q : It is a Christian idea. I'm not a Christian, so don't ask me about that idea. Q :But theologians are always disputing that there is or isn't. If there is something original it is only God. Everything else is artificial. The Christians must understand that, but they can't even understand this simple thing. I don't know. Only one thing is original and that is God. That is the real original thing. I can't call anything more original than that. It is the most real original thing. Q : But can a new-born baby sin? The thing is this, he is new-born but probably he is carrying his actions within him. Q : But does he know what sin is? He doesn't know who he is. He doesn't know his father. He doesn't know his mother. He doesn't know what to do. He doesn't know anything. Q : When I say new-born I don't mean . .. I'll tell you the whole round circle. A man did some sins and he dies. His ego flies with the sins. His soul flies with the things which are good. Right? Now these two things fly and this ego jet tries to follow where the soul goes. Now this soul goes and lands in that little boy - right? - And these bad actions that were being carried by ego also go into that little boy. As soon as he is taught 'I', you know, and he understands 'I', right from there he has done a mistake. And 'I' means ego. Because he understood 'I' he has done a mistake. He does not know it then, but after some time he does know it. And then all these other things start, because he has accepted that ego. And by now that ego has completely landed. First it had not landed, it was just flying around. Soul had landed. It took a birth. But as soon as he said 'I', ego said O.K, land now. And at that moment it has landed. Q : But doesn't a child in the womb know God? At that time he is doing meditation. He is one in complete meditation, and then he is disturbed in his meditation, and he is taken out. Then he is probably tortured by this world. By the good and bad. Q : So after many, many lives of striving, can a soul be born and not get this 'I'? Yea. As long as he is accepting 'I', it is O.K, he must be born. I accepted 'I' for seven years. I was born but now I don't accept 'I'. I accepted 'I' when I was a baby, but now I accept 'l' no more, Done. Work finished! No more have I to take any birth or so on. Now I have my reservations on the liberation plane! Non-stop jet to liberation! Understand? Q : Any free seats? Every seat is free. But it is hard to get there! Because you have to jump, you have to try. That is a bit hard, but it is not so hard. It's on you, you know. Whatever you choose. Anything more? ++++++++++++ |
Date: Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 13:29:12 (EST)
From: Here is what is said Email: None To: Here is what M said Subject: Part 2 Message: Q : Who's the judge? Known as Dharma Raj. Dharma Raj. O.K? Q : What does that mean? Judge. Q : Is the judge a premie? Judge is your brother, that's why he favours you. Q : Does the liberated soul have full powers? The liberated one has got no powers at all. The liberated one is completely surrendered. Surrendered. Does not occupy his own anything. Completely surrendered. Q : Are we just talking about earth, or can you return to any other planet? Well, you'll have to contact TWA, Trans World Airlines, about that. They can tell you. You can send a telex to London. Q : If someone has received the Knowledge, but never practices, what happens at the judgement time, does he go fast or does he stop? Now, when he has received Knowledge, but is not meditating upon it, a double-top is placed in the carburettor, and the power becomes very restricted. That man has to push himself like this, and jerks out to this place, like an old man climbing up the stairs, a very old man. Have you seen a very, very old man, climbing up the stairs? How he jerks himself? Goes and steps, then stops. Goes and steps, then stops. Q : Sometimes he falls down the steps. Yes, that's right. Q :Before you go to hell and get punished in hell, why do you have birth? Let me explain. In hell, to finish up your spell in hell, you must be sent to earth. I will explain to you later how the soul goes from here to there, and how this hell is repaid. Q : Is that ticket on the express jet, is that a one-way ticket? The ticket on the express jet, the non-stop jet to Mukti (Liberation), is one way. But you can get a two-way ticket. You can get it, if you want it. But then you will have to take body. I told you somewhere, where? In Los Angeles? Toronto? Q : Is that what Jesus did in his body? His body was right beside the soldier. See, I'll tell you. Now we are talking about the jets. When we want a two-way ticket, we are sent here, O.K? And we are given all the privileges that have to be given in Mukti. Hanuman came with Ram, right? And he stayed like a humble disciple fully at the foot or Ram, right? And then Arjuna came He was always at His Lotus Feet. He who was the creator of Mukti even. They were at the Lotus Feet of that authority. So automatically they were in heaven. Understand? This is the condition of the two-way. Becoming immortal, immortal. You may see a picture of Krishna driving the chariot; you will see that Hanuman is sitting on the top of that flag on the chariot. And wherever you see that picture of that chariot so you also see Hanuman sitting right there. Like this is Guru Maharaj Ji's Lotus Feet, right? So this is the disciple who requires a two-way ticket, so that this can be done to him. Understood? (Maharaj Ji places piece of chalk in his shoe). Like this, the disciple will be right against His foot. Understood? Never be separated. Q : The person who has reached the place, is he aware of having reached the place, or is there awareness left? Mukti, the liberation place? When he reaches there, you know, when he gets on that plane, his awareness has been taken by Guru. Q : So then he is not even aware that he is there? He is no 'he' there. His 'he', 'I' and 'you' are taken here only. His petrol was totally filtered. Nothing like 'I'. Completely taken. When there is no 'I', there is no 'we'. Q : A person that is liberated 'is' no longer. 'Is'? I'll tell you. Can you see the dropper, everybody? Can you see the glass? Now this drop goes, one two, three, four, five. Did you see them? Can you distinguish them in this glass? Have you figured it out? Q : They're liberated. Yes, liberated. Q : That's all right for the water, Guru Maharaj Ji, what about me? Don't worry. Same way, O.K? Understood? Whenever we are placed in the jet, that takes place. Completely filtered, completely mixed. O.K? Q : When the drop falls into the glass, you can't see the difference. But how about the drop, does it know? No. Why does it even want to know? Man would not like to know himself at that point. Because he has become so tired of remembering himself. Now he would like to be completely part of somebody else and that is of his origin, where he never knew who he was. What is a child's name? What does he pronounce by himself? Who are you? (to baby) And he, Ahhhhh? (Baby replies) Who are you? Ahhhhh. Because he never knows what his name is. In his origin he is placed right back, fully back. O.K? Everybody has understood? Any questions on this, about what I have explained up to now? Q : My question is this. You know you came from Mukti and you have come to the earth, you've gone for several lifetimes, going to heaven and hell in between and you've gone through all of this process through eons of time and then you go back to Mukti, so what is the point? The question is not why have you gone back to Mukti. The question is, why have you been separated from Mukti. Why have you been separated? You have been given an aim which has to be fulfilled. Every human man who has been separated from Mukti, from his origin, has been given an aim. An aim. A-l-M. Understand? Everybody has been given an aim. To be completely worked out. And thus he plays an act, he plays a role, so that he may complete it. For that aim has to be completed, by the Divine Will. Q : If we were complete to begin with, why did you make us separated and having to go through the whole thing again? Just for that aim. What else? Try to understand. Q : I think they're trying to ask why there is an aim. Is that right? Why there is an aim? O.K, open up your ears. Because of the Divine Will. Understood? Because of an opportunity. Do you understand? Q : How does one discern one's aim, what it is in one's life? One must go to a spiritual master to find it out. One has to do meditation. One has to be again on that path. Q : Was part of that aim to enjoy the universe? To enjoy the creation? A little bit. A little bit. But not to eat, drink and be merry. Have you understood? Really? Really? O.K. I'll stay five minutes more. Q : What is the aim of the Divine Will? The aim of the Divine Will is Divine Will. At the moment I can see everybody. If I raise my eyes I come to this line here, and if I raise my eyes again I come to that pink thing, and then if I raise my eyes again I see the roof, and that's all I can see. And what is the purpose of it? That is not for you. That is for Divinity. For the Divine Grace of the Divine Personality. Q : I understand this, the words are easy to understand. But will I know before I leave here that it's true, just because you said it? If I meditate and do my job, will I know what you say is true because you say it? The thing is this. This is what I've been telling you, and I'll repeat it, I'll repeat it three times. The most truthful thing I say is the Divine Word which you pronounce at every second of your life. And that Word is spoken by the Divine Mouth. So what is real truth? If you want to understand me, you must meditate. Not even by my words will you understand. You can only understand me by meditation. Q : Maharaj Ji, why did you choose us? So, whom should I choose? Donkeys? If I choose you it is your opportunity. What is the harm? Is there any harm in it? So be glad about it. Why be bothered about it? O.K. Recess. After five minutes assemble here. Yes, I'll be back, I have to explain you the works of hell and heaven. (Five minutes later) Now, we have changed the diagram a little bit. Previously we were talking about hell and heaven, but now we are going to identify, to verify the states of heaven and hell. Now, hell is the place where man goes to receive his punishment, and if it is possible to give him the punishment in hell only, he'll be given the punishment there. Right? Now, we have changed the diagram a little bit. Previously we were talking about hell and heaven, but now we are going to identify, to verify the states of heaven and hell. Now, hell is the place where man goes to receive his punishment, and if it is possible to give him the punishment in hell only, he'll be given the punishment there. Right? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 14:47:25 (EST)
From: Sir D Email: None To: Here is what is said Subject: Part 2 Message: Yes, that's the mechanics of liberation questions and answers I was refering to. When I first read it in 1972 I thought Maharaji MUST be the Lord to say all of that. Much later I realised it was all just basic Hindu philosophy with a bit more added for good measure. You missed out the bit near the end where he says that animals are suffering hell. Perhaps I'm dumb but that didn't sound right to me at the time but it was ages before it dawned on me that this was just Hinduism as taught to him by his Mahatmas and perhaps his Father. Jean-Michel, I think there may be a problem putting this sort of stuff on this forum since some people might believe it and think it's true and believe that Maharaji knows what he was talking about. Not all people who read this site are unbelievers like myself or you. Some people are waverers and the posting of large sections of Maharaji's satsang could be counterproductive to people who are trying to recover. Perhaps at least, you could put a comment to the effect that you consider all of the stuff in this satsang is medieval bolderdash and quite simply not true. I am worried that people might take it all seriously and believe it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 15:20:54 (EST)
From: Joy Email: None To: Sir D Subject: Part 2 Message: Yes, I agree with David. This is ALL nothing but a rehash of BASIC Hindu/Buddhist philosophy, which any person from the Eastern countries could probably recount. That BM sets himself up (via his Knowledge, which we all know is nothing but simple meditation techniques) as the path out towards liberation is the big crime. I think there needs to be a big disclaimer at the beginning so people don't actually start to believe any of this or take it seriously, or perhaps some comments in italics as it goes along, kind of like Jim does occasionally. Otherwise, I, too, find it distressing to see large chunks of the BM's BS spread around the place. Though don't take this as a criticism, J-M, I think you've done a fabulous job with your web site and in documenting a lot of this stuff so people who are interested in objectively looking at it can see exactly what the BM is preaching and evaluate for themselves. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 15:34:44 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Joy Subject: I see ! Message: I now understand that I didn't sign my posts ! You guys have recogized me, when I couldn't see it myself! THAT WAS OLD STUFF, PRINTED IN OLD DLM's MAGAZINES MORE THAN 25 YEARS AGO !!! ALL premies who've received k in that time have heard this over and over, and had to believe in this in order to receive k ! Everybody LOVED to hear the BM say that kind of stuff. It's become more and more rare! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 15:27:53 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Sir D Subject: Part 2: nothing new Message: You missed out the bit near the end where he says that animals are suffering hell. This is going to be Part 3, and it will very likely be online by tomorrow night, or the day after. Your comment could also be valid for all the stuff on my site. But I think I have an introduction page there. Anyway I think that whatever anybody says could be accepted by anybody wanting to believe in it. Indian philosophy is more or less valid for about 1 billion people on earth! We consider all this as BS... I think the BM believes in it too, but he has understood that giving details on his belief is detrimental to his 'purpose'. I also think that most of the premies believe in this, and that it's good to have it from the horse's mouth as you say. Most of us have heard or read this long time ago, as well as some other discourses of that kind. When M now says that he doesn't know what's going on after we die, I say he is a liar! How come that he knew it in 71-72, and that he doesn't know it anymore? How come that God changes his belief? Did he say anything untrue? He also said a few amazing stuff in that q & a session, like he is all the time in God's consciousness. If he really is in God's consciousness all the time, how come that he says one thing one day, and the contrary the other day? Is this a 'lila'? Who's going to believe this? With a little bit of common sense! I tend to think that showing what m said shows his ridicule, and his nonsense. M's 'teaching' is nothing more than a westernized version of some Indian cult, like so many others. This is the only thing I've tried to show. Everyone is 'free' to believe in this, and to give him all his money ... and to suffer all the consequences... Nothing new. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 19:23:09 (EST)
From: Sir D Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Jean-Michel Subject: Part 2: nothing new Message: It's a strange thing, Jean-Michel but some years ago I would have given my right arm to read 'The mechanics of Liberation' again as I did have a copy of it in an ols 'Divine Light' which I had kept for years but then lost when I was burgled. And yet now I realise it was just BS and have no interest in it at all and am amazed that I got hoodwinked into believing it all. Particularly since the bit you missed out had some pretty heavy bits in it about certain people being reborn as animals. I wonder if Maharaji still believes all of this. If he was indoctrinated with it from a young age then he probably still does, to some extent. I think you are doing a grand job with your web site and particularly in rewriting all the stuff that Maharaji wants to forget he ever said. I have a tape of Maharaji question & answers from Denver 1976 which you may be interested in. It's a particularly wierd tape to listen to because all the premies sound totally freaked out on it while Maharaji appears to be enjoying himself. Some questions that are asked: 'Maharaji, do you experience complete happiness all of the time?' He gave an answer which now sounds very much like he's lying. 'Maharaji, will there ever become a time when I will no longer be troubled by my mind?' This poor premie sounded very depressed. 'Maharaji, what should I do when I don't feel like practising knowledge?' Maharaji's answer was very glib. On the tape he talks about how the ashrams are going to be like hospitals and how he is going to give people physical direction to help with their spiritual lives. He also gives this very strange explaination about knowledge being like two tubes which to this day, I've never understood. Anyway, Jean-Michel, you can have a copy of this tape if you want. Just let me know where to send it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 00:16:38 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Sir D Subject: Part 2: nothing new Message: Hi Sir D, I remember this famous satsang. I might own it too, as I also own piles of old tapes. I've kept most of those old stuff, I don't recall exactly how I've managed to keep them! Somle have been donated by exes friends here also. I'll let you know in case I don't have it. Can you give me the date/place of that one? Regarding this 'tube' stuff, I think the BM was completely stoned and used to speak of some of his 'visions'. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 10:19:12 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Sir D Subject: Good for the burglar Message: It's a strange thing, Jean-Michel but some years ago I would have given my right arm to read 'The mechanics of Liberation' again as I did have a copy of it in an ols 'Divine Light' which I had kept for years but then lost when I was burgled. It serves the burglar right. I hope he read it and became a premie. That would fix his ass, eh? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 12:22:13 (EST)
From: Joy Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Maharaji nov 14 katmandu Message: Good comments, Jerry. I found myself being a little freaked out yesterday as I was reading thru these satsang summaries. After all I haven't given Maharaji much more than a passing thought for about 17 years and all of a sudden here I am spending a considerable amount of time each day reading posts on the site, and now reading his words! I had the paranoid thought that ex-premie.org was all a plot set up by the BM himself to get the ex-s back into thinking about him and putting their attention on him, even in this strange, backwards way. Just paranoia, really, but it did occur to me I don't want to spend quite this amount of time focusing on him anymore, I have better things to do with my life. Sure do like all your cool folks, though. To address one of the things in the BM's speech of two days ago, I think he just rips stuff off from anywhere he can find it and tries to make it sound like his original stuff. Case in point: His story about the guy who spins the whole mental fabrication about how rich he is going to be then reality comes crashing down around him is hardly new. According to Sogyal Rinpoche in The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying it is an old Tibetan story and he recounts essentially the same story over several paragraphs (at least Rinpoche has the humility not to take credit for it!). Maharaji is doing everything he can to make himself look wise, when all he is doing is rehashing Eastern folklore and adding his own spin on some of it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 18:47:50 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Joy Subject: Joy, I can relate to that: Message: I don't want to spend quite this amount of time focusing on him anymore, I have better things to do with my life. Sure do like all you cool folks, though. :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 19:18:07 (EST)
From: Liz Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Breath Message: Insofar as M discusses the immortality of breath I have always justified it like this. 'Breath', in general (Not just my breath or your breath etc),is immortal because it has always been in something since life began on this planet and will continue to be in something after I die. Hence it continues 'to be'. Is there a flaw in this line of thought? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 19:44:22 (EST)
From: Sir D Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Liz Subject: Breath Message: Hey, I'd never thought of that. But what about fish? I suppose you could say they're breathing water. But I could take this a stage further and say that worshipping the Sun is more valid since without the Sun, there would be no life on this planet. Or perhaps the heart should be worshipped because if that goes, no amount of breathing will keep you alive. I think the breath is a good mantra for meditating on if you want to get into meditation. Better than repeating 'Hari Krishna' or the like. But breath meditation is nothing new and it's advised by non spiritual people all over the world as a stress reliever. There's nothing hocus pocus or spiritual about it in my book. Turning it into knowledge of immortality is a farce, in my opinion. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 20:17:10 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Sir D Subject: Astonishing naivite Message: As I've told Bill several times, I think it's amazingly naive to regard the breath as conscious. Something akin to sun worship, exactly as David says. Or perhaps blood worship. Sounds stupid, I know, but not to a whole lot of early, relatively unscientific cultures. (I'm reading a book now ironically called 'The Problem With Science' which explains how all cultures engage in some degree of science. Even animals do! -- Don't ask, I'm just getting into that chapter). Really, the only reason anyone would even think of even thinking to think this way (?) is that they are completely ignorant of what we know of evolution. Like my old premie friend who emailed me the other day, you have to think evolution's a 'crock' in order to be mystified by biological complexity and function. Really, anyone who thinks like that should read Dawkins' Climbing Mount Improbable and dispell such illusions once and for all. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 09:21:20 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Liz Subject: Breath Message: Liz, my understanding of the breath is this. When the diaphragm contracts, the lungs expand, drawing in oxygen for the blood. When the diaphragm expands, the lungs contract, removeing carbon dioxide. When this process began, way back when on the evolutionary scale, I don't know, but I don't think our single celled primordial ancestors started it. Somewhere along the line, when organisms became more complex, complex respiratory systems evolved to provide oxygen for their cells. This is my understanding of the breath. I see nothing immortal in that. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 10:51:14 (EST)
From: srb Email: None To: Jim Subject: Maharaji nov 14 katmandu Message: his comments about the creator are where he makes his biggest tactical error. He knows and approves of the printing of his transcript as he knows we will dissect it. He picked the lines to edit out no doubt. He is in up to his elbows as far as enjoying life is concerned He was the one that made the definition for that site-short, concise and (whatever). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 14, 1998 at 23:08:00 (EST)
From: DV da Brave Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Hits Message: What do you think about displaying the number of hits this site takes? Who knows- could be in the millions... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 15, 1998 at 10:31:44 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: DV da Brave Subject: Hits Message: That's a good idea, O brave one. Now that Maharaji doesn't wear a mala, perhaps you could pinch his jacket the next time. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 20:17:15 (EST)
From: DV Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Hits Message: Or e-mail all the college professors in the country letting them know the books they are selling built M's house. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 20:18:53 (EST)
From: dv Email: None To: DV Subject: Amazing- no one noticed. Message: Maybe it's the grace... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 20:51:31 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: dv Subject: Which books, DV Message: Actually, I did notice, but haven't had time to post this question yet. I have been meaning to ask someone which books EV is/was selling. What is that all about? Thanks, DV Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 21:32:37 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: VP Subject: the book scam Message: We have talked about this on here before. The following is what I've heard about it on the forum. I think Jean-Michel knows more, and DV may know a lot more. The book-buying company is called Amtext and is run and staffed by premies. College professors often get sample copies of new textbooks so they can see if they want to use them in their classes. The Amtext people will go around on a university campus and ask the professors if they want to sell the new textbooks that they don't want (and that they got for free) for a few bucks. This is not ethical (not sure about legal), because Amtext re-sells the books (not sure to who) and the authors get no royalties from them. So some of the professors throw the premies out of their offices, but some do sell the books to them. Then Amtext sells them again and makes money. Certain premies have apparently made a lot of money - like enough to retire - doing this. And apparently M gets money from Amtext too. I think the premies who go door-to-door in the universities sometimes do it for nothing - as service... If I got something wrong, or if I left something out, please correct me, anyone. The whole thing makes me mad because I know several people who write textbooks and they make very little money from it - despite the high price of textbooks. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 14, 1998 at 12:46:19 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Katmandu report now in! Message: Jonathan Cainer, itinerant reporter for the 'Electronic Times', a fully owned subsidiary of ELK, has now filed his report from Katmandu. To read it, go to ELK: http://www.enjoyinglife.org/enjoylife/knowledge.nsf/frames/home go to 'Around the World', then 'Electronic Times', then 'November', then you're in. There you will find Maharaji ridiculing people who talk about the past, people who talk about the future, people who talk about how things are or try to undertand them. There you will hear Maharaji's pitch, that there is 'something' your heart wants SO BAD, oh my poor benumbed friends, if only you knew how absolutely thirsty you were right now. Yes, there you will find Maharaji explain how weak we all are, weak indeed we must be, in order to open our hearts and accept JUST HOW THIRSTY we really are. There you will find Maharaji cajoling you to realize that all your relationships are false and that thinking itself is just about the crqaziest thing you can ever imagine. Of course, imagination has its problems too, yes it does. Time to give up, I'd say. Time to open up and really find that THIRST, you know. Yes, there you will find Maharaji criticize people for not really saying what they think and for treating God like some kind of stupid old uncle, trying to milk him for all he's got. No wonder Maharaji explained right off the bat that he's no uncle! And if you keep reading you'll be rewarded by Maharaji's own special theory and prophecy (Bill, you'll like this... or at least some of it): 'The truly miraculous is the most natural thing of all. The greatest miracle is in you and it is in me. It is the simple coming and the going of this breath. The day when you stop to take your last breath, you will understand this. Then you will not care if the rock gives milk or the cow gives milk. Then it will become very clear to you that this breath is the only true miracle. It is happening all the time; every minute of every day, yet we forget. We forget to appreciate the greatest miracle of all.' Again, you'll hear Maharaji decry mere 'intellectual curiosity' and 'mental dancing'. Out, out damned spot! JAI SAT CHIT ANAND! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 14, 1998 at 15:31:28 (EST)
From: Sir D Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Jim Subject: Katmandu report now in! Message: Having once believed that I was taking my last breath, when I was having a heart attack, I can honestly say that Maharaji and his knowledge were the last things on my mind. What was on my mind? My children and how they needed me, and would they please get this ambulance to the hospital real quick! Such talk about so called 'knowledge' and masters become ridiculous at such a time. You see it as plain as plain can be, just what is important in your life. The ones you don't want to leave behind, the days you want to walk with them again. I was dying and Maharaji never even entered my thoughts! The spoilt little brat doth flatter himself, methinks. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 14, 1998 at 17:11:05 (EST)
From: Selene Email: None To: Sir D Subject: Katmandu report now in! Message: The spoilt little brat has made a fortune by flattering himself, and little else! We should be so lucky. Damn, I made it through the bills this month with $100 left over. Thanks for the laugh. But God, a part of me is still so angry that he is still spouting this shit, and that it is always going to appeal to someone who wants a way out. Having been an escapist all my life, I still see the appeal in the 'last breath' routine. It all won't matter then, so why should it matter now? Isn't that what he is saying? And if those damned glass doors don't slide into the floor in the Malibu dream house, does it matter M? Do you get upset at the sloppy workmanship? That you didn't get the precise view of the Pacific at the time you wanted it? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 14, 1998 at 20:17:19 (EST)
From: Carl Beringer Email: None To: Jim Subject: Katmandu report now in! Message: I thought I'd just check in and see what goes on here, and boy, are you guys fucked up! Jim, whoever you are - why are you so negative? I see your name all over the place and you are starting to get me down. You know the truth. You all know exactly what to do to find the truth. Just go look inside for a change instead of listening to your crazy minds. I don't think I'll bother staying around here. It would just be an insult to what Maharaji has shown me. See ya. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 14, 1998 at 20:40:57 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Carl Beringer Subject: Bye Carl Message: Carl, the site you're looking for is www.enjoyinglife.com where everything is just smashingly delightful, just the way you like it. We'll miss you terribly. Jai Satchitanand. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 14, 1998 at 20:55:09 (EST)
From: david m Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Bye Carl Message: Hey Jerry....I guess that really is the correct site for Carl.....but wait a minuite carl what did M really show you..truth peace....establishing peace...spreading peace....or was it please make a donation...or purchase this videotape..or give somemore of your time....or the expremies dont know anything there old has beens...thats probably it...old has-beens..that gave all the money ..heart....soul...ohhhhhhhhh i forgot you guys do not have that concept any more that was DLM.....Divine Light Mission Wooops sorry i forgot your not asociated ..with them any more...peace dave Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 15, 1998 at 01:21:01 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: Carl Beringer is a fat bastard Message: Just ask him! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 14, 1998 at 21:05:08 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Carl Beringer Subject: An invitation Message: Carl, My negativity is just a birth defect. Stick around for a while and you'll get over it. Most people do. Just don't stand too close and you barely notice it after a while. But, Carl, if that's not enough, may I invite you to something a little special? Something a little, how should I say, special? (Oh, I already said that, didn't I?) Okay, Carl, here's the deal: If you can drag your happy, little premie ass back here on Tuesday, November 17th, 1998 at 20:00 EST w'ere gonna have a big surprise for you! Yes, Carl, just like the Lard himself said a few years back, 'soon the world will see a great, strange thing. And soon the world will realize not just that there is a fraud but who that fraud is.' Stay tuned! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 14, 1998 at 21:15:44 (EST)
From: Carl Email: None To: Jim Subject: Count me out, pal! Message: Heller, you said: >Yes, Carl, just like the Lard himself You are so sick, laughing at my former weight problem. Is that the best you can come up with? And yes, Jerry and David, I do know about the enjoyinglife site. I have bared my soul there but it is obviously wasted on the likes of you. I won't be back. But why Tuesday, Heller, you asshole? Why not now? With disgust, Carl. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 14, 1998 at 21:24:03 (EST)
From: david m Email: None To: Carl Subject: P E A C E Message: Hey Carl.... seems like your not to happy these days pretty bitter....... sounds like to me you need a attitude adjustment....soooo hung.....thats it remember the holy name....now just give a slight donation thats better.......later... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 14, 1998 at 23:33:54 (EST)
From: Joy Email: None To: Carl Subject: Mellow Out, Pal Message: Hey Carl, don't be so paranoid. 'Lard' was a reference to Maharaji's weight problem, no one else's. That, and his former desire to be referred to as The Lord of the Universe. Now, I understand, he merely wishes to be TREATED like the Lord of the Universe, but has dropped the title. Everyone around here are pretty nice folks, despite the fact that we're 'in our minds' as you say. We kinda like it that way, makes for a nicer balance, you know? Mind/heart/body/soul, much nicer and more well-rounded than just heart, makes it much easier to function in the world, I can tell ya. No need to go calling people assholes, now, it doesn't reflect too well on the fact that you're 'enjoyinglife' all that much. But stick around, you'll be a welcome addition to the site, we get kinda bored now and again. (You and all your premie friends are particularly welcome to check in on Tuesday at 20:00 EST for some really big fun!) P.S. Are you the guy who was married to that girl in Miami, Randi Beringer, the one with the big boobs who used to wear tight sweaters and drive all the poor celibate ashram brothers bananas? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 15, 1998 at 00:09:05 (EST)
From: Sir D Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Joy Subject: Maharaji brings world peace Message: Joy; shouldn't I be in bed? I spoke briefly to your future husband when I couldn't figure out whose phone number it was on my phone bill. He seems like a nice guy. Really, I didn't mind the long phone call with you that evening. I just had forgotten who it was to. Anyway, it looks like we're not going to bomb Iraq tonight so I can go back to bed. I've been watching CNN with baited breath to see if the war starts tonight or not. ANd now, here's Larry King Live: Larry: We go right over to our LA studio now to talk to a Mr Maharaji who says he has a last minute peace offer to Saddam Hussain. Maharaji (for it is he): It's just so beautiful. I mean these guys think that bombing Iraq is going to bring peace but they're so deluded blah blah that place blah blah flying in my private jet the other day when blah blah stupid people who have their mean little thoughts blah blah they will never find peace blah blah only my knowledge blah blah save the world blah blah just so beautiful blah blah fools don't listen to me blah blah but I'm gonna get angry blah blah stupid premies blah blah enemies, I have enemies blah blah door is always open blah blah blah India was, well, fantastic blah blah blah when a master comes blah blah stupid people... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 00:08:47 (EST)
From: Gail Email: None To: Sir D Subject: Maharaji brings world peace Message: I love it! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 15, 1998 at 01:27:58 (EST)
From: Sister Mary Elephant Email: None To: Joy Subject: Yes, Joy, big boobs indeed, Message: Are you the guy who was married to that girl in Miami, Randi Beringer, the one with the big boobs who used to wear tight sweaters and drive all the poor celibate ashram brothers bananas? He is THAT Carl Beringer. Or else a dead ringer for him. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 08:42:42 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Joy Subject: Mellow Pillow Message: Joy: Re: P.S. Are you the guy who was married to that girl in Miami, Randi Beringer, the one with the big boobs who used to wear tight sweaters and drive all the poor celibate ashram brothers bananas? Thanks for filling me in on the important 'developments' I missed after leaving. I'm getting a little nostalgic. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 13:04:33 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Joy Subject: Mellow Out, Pal Message: P.S. Are you the guy who was married to that girl in Miami, Randi Beringer, the one with the big boobs who used to wear tight sweaters and drive all the poor celibate ashram brothers bananas? I don't think so, Joy. Carl is an anesthetist from Redding, California who didn't receive knowledge until the late 80s or early 90s I think. I think Randi's husband's name is/was John. Yes, Randi Beringer. She used to even drive me nuts with those swimsuits and sweaters, and you know I'm not usually even driving down that road, if you know what I mean. I always did wonder how she managed wearing those tight sweaters in Miami. I guess we all had sacrifices to make. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 15, 1998 at 00:36:53 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Carl Subject: Tuesday's the day, Carl Message: Carl, If that was your soul ... if that was your soul... Carl, if that was your SOUL.. come on, man, that wasn't your soul. That was your exoskeleton. That was your multi-coated, varnished, lacquered set piece, fired in the dusty ovens of Dehrun Dune. Glazed to perfection like a good premie's eyes. Carl, honestly, I'd completely forgotten abotu your weight problem. Perhaps I should have called Maharaji the Perfect Hamster instead of Lard but then, when you think of it, Hamsters are kind of big and dumpy too, huh? Wonder what a hamster Maharaji's size would even SMELL like. Ever thought about that, Carl? Maybe it's time you did. Think about that now so that there's one more dangerous thought over and done with before your final breath. Capiche? As for Tuesday, Carl all I can tell you is that Tuesday speaks to me. Tuesday at 20:00 EST just resonates with my being, you know? I missed the Gathering of the Tribes (1972) and I missed the Harmonic Convergence (8?) but this one, Carl, I ain't gonna miss for anything. Tell your friends, 'kay? P.S. Try a low-carb diet like Protein Power. Works for me. Cheers! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 15, 1998 at 10:22:14 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Carl Subject: You'll be here Message: I guarantee it. And about this baring of your soul, when was that, when you compared M's oratory prowess to that of Ronald Reagan, or was it your comparison of K to an anesthetic? Deeply moving, Carl, I gotta tell ya. My own soul was deeply stirred by your honest admissions... not. See you on Tuesday. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 12:54:25 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Carl Subject: Hi Carl Message: Gee Carl, seems like I know you from SOMEPLACE, but I just can't place it. Could it, be, I don't know, from a darshan line somewhere? I did read your life story at enjoyingcultlife and I understand you are from California and that you were impressed with Ronald Reagan's speaking ability and you compared it favorably to that of Maharaji. You might consider changing that in your story because it is truly damning by faint praise, I guess for both Maharaji and Reagan. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 16:47:48 (EST)
From: Rick Email: None To: JW Subject: Hi Carl Message: Carl Beringer said: I have heard some great speakers in my time, like Ronald Reagan for example, and Maharaji has to be right up there among them. That's fucking hysterical. Ronald Ray Gun? Speaker? Hahahahahahahaha! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 19:02:22 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: JW Subject: In Defense of Carl Message: JW, I've just about had it with your knee-jerk leftist shit. Ronald Reagan WAS a great communicator and you know it. Didn't you see the pictures of his formal affairs at the White House or anything? They were all over the place. How about the spread in Vanity Fair? What's wrong with you? You know, sometimes I think guys like you actually like it when people like Carl speak up about guys like Ron. Gives you something to bitch about. It's almost like you put him up to it or something. 'Hey, Carl, tell us what you REALLY think about Maharaji's communication skills. He's as great a communicator as Ronald Reagan, isn't he?' ... then SLAM! Sorry, man, don't mean to get heavy on you but, well, you know, I just think Reagan doesn't deserve some of the shit he gets around here. It's not like you find people ridiculing him elsewhere. What's so special about being an ex-premie that makes it open season on some pretty swell guys? Beats me. Oh yeah, I should have named this 'In Defence of Ron'. Carl's just another idiot. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 19:30:08 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Jim Subject: In Defense of Carl/Ron Message: Well, I don't think it's completely accurate to say I put Carl up to it. I mean I think I know Carl pretty well and he's got a lot to say. But maybe Carl did have a point. I mean Ronald Reagan did have the ability, because he wasn't impeded by intellect, to say we could really have it all, and REALLY believe it. You know, like I think he really believed in supply side economics, that you can cut taxes for the rich by 25%, increase military spending by 100 billion dollars a year, and not cut anything else, and NOT send the country into a sea of red ink. He really believed we would GROW our way out of the deficit. [It was only others who laughed at the Laffer curve.] I mean, what's another four trillion dollars added to the national debt, right? And deregulation of the savings and loan industry, why not? And then bail them out, sure! What's another $800 billion to the taxpayers? Hell, we can save the money by cutting school lunch programs and calling ketchup a vegetable. But with a smile, you know, so nobody gets upset? I mean, doesn't Maharaji do the same thing? Tell people what they want to hear, that they can have it all, and the deficits only show up in the fine print later? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 19:14:12 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: JW Subject: In Defense of Ron Message: I've had it with your knee-jerk leftist shit. Ronald Reagan WAS a great communicator and you know it. What's wrong with you? I think guys like you actually like it when people like Carl speak up about guys like Ron. Gives you something to bitch about. Reagan doesn't deserve some of the shit he gets around here. What's so special about being an ex-premie that makes it open season on some great American heroes? Beats me. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 11:42:18 (EST)
From: Mickey the Numerologist Email: None To: Gerry Subject: In Defense of Ron Message: R o n a l d W i l s o n R e a g a n = 666 Beware!!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 14:25:28 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: Mickey the Numerologist Subject: In Defense of Ron Message: MP: Ahhhhh, but add up the ascii quivalent for for the letters 'Windows95' and 'Bill Gates'. Now see what you come up with. Hint: each one equals 666..... NOW THAT'S SCARY!!!!! he he he. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 14, 1998 at 23:37:59 (EST)
From: Sir D Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Carl Beringer Subject: Well Carl Message: You say the truth is inside. You say that Maharaji has shown us the truth within. And I think you say that because Maharaji has told you this. If like me, you'd not seen or heard Maharaji since 1986, you'd have a different view. People can meditate and perhaps have a mind altering experience if they're lucky. But is it the truth? No it isn't. Everyone has a different experience if they meditate. I've spoken to lots of people about meditation experiences and they are all very different. An altered state of mind is not the truth. Maharaji claims it's the truth but he doesn't even practise his fantastic meditation. He's more into wine, women and jets. And luxury boats. When Marolyn Rawat nearly died from her stroke, Maharaji was completely freaking out. Perhaps you would have liked to have been around him at that time and told him to go inside and meditate on the truth. I think he would have given you a mouth full if you had. What I object most strongly about, is Maharaji's preaching that his knowledge is the truth and that everything else is irrelevent and false. You see I object to this because Maharaji clearly doesn't believe or live it himself. And yet he expects other people to swallow this bullshit. If your mind is quiet, perhaps you can feel some stillness from meditating on your breath, if you're so inclined. But it's not the truth any more than your irritation with Jim is the truth. It's just another of life's many experiences. If you're cheesed off with Jim and the rest of us, how come? If the knowledge was the truth as Maharaji claimed it is, you'd never get cheesed off again! You could have no friends and no relationships and you wouldn't ever feel the need because you'd be floating around in a truth bubble. But Carl, it's never been like that for anyone, least of all premies or Maharaji. So he perpetrates a lie, an untruth. He gets up on his chair and rants on about a truth that lies inside and the fact is, it isn't true and he knows it. If it was, why would he get so angry all the time? Why would he need an affair with another woman? Why would he need to get drunk? He is telling a big, big lie to trusting and innocent people. That is why I'm here. ANd we'll all be here, there and everywhere until Maharaji shuts up and goes home. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 15, 1998 at 02:28:03 (EST)
From: Jethro Email: None To: Carl Beringer Subject: Katmandu report now in! Message: 'It would just be an insult to what Maharaji has shown me.' Carl, how come something so perfect and selfless which makes perfect anything it touches, be insulted? Cee you next tuesday!!!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 15, 1998 at 11:08:15 (EST)
From: bongo beringer Email: None To: Carl Beringer Subject: the breath vampire Message: carl is deluded like i was by the former lord of the u that the breath was some big deal. his mom and big bro couldn't breathe thier way into accepting the young ratwats domination trip. ratwat himself hasnt breathed himself into qualities like honesty or breaathed himself past a small mans maglomania. we are of course all still the stupid human race that can't -get-his obvious exaltedness and leadership on how to spend your short life. you might as well rub your private parts (or get instructor monica lewis to do it) if you want some spiritual experience. also, carl doesn't appear to know that ratwat considers getting something at a bargain price is one of the biggest thrills in life. yacht, airplane, free workers and servants. wont the christians be glad to see ratwat playing this trip after the y2k mess. he will gladly accept antichrist labels because it supports his self importance delusion. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 15, 1998 at 12:44:54 (EST)
From: Sir D Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: bongo beringer Subject: the breath vampire Message: Bill, if that's you; Maharaji will never be called the Anti-Christ by the Christians. Most Christians have never heard of him. He is so unimportant in the scheme of things now. I predict that his mission will continue to shrink in the West. He can only get a few hundred Western people each year to receive his knowledge. And most of those disappear as soon as they realise it's just four old meditation techniques. The old die-hards are getting middle aged and past it, regarding propogation. Saddam Hussain is a good Anti-Christ figure for the Christians. The world is playing a very different game to the pretend Lord, Maharaji. The world will not even notice him. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 11:12:40 (EST)
From: stark raving burke Email: None To: Sir D Subject: the breath vampire Message: Well Sir David, The world is on the verge of a drastic change courtesy of the y2k bug. Large parts of the world will go through hell. Third world locations will be more vulnerable to rawat missionaries and videos and since life has managed to allow him to get this far with his global foundations of believers, he is well set up to move right into the global savior role. He will not do it through the media, but by no means is he a done deal. People are very suseptable to a guy like him when the world seems to have crashed all thier hopes in a better life. You need to wander over to the gartner group web site and read the report to the united states senate. It is titled Year 2000 Global State of Readiness and Risks to the General Business Community. Let me know what you think in a thread up top. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 12:06:45 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: stark raving burke Subject: hold on there, Bill Message: Large parts of the world will go through hell. Unless you know this as a FACT, you have a moral responsibility to express this prediction as a qualified belief. Come on, Bill, what are you going to do if you're wrong and no one goes thorugh any particular 'hell' over this? Say you were sorry for irresponsible fear-mongering but it just got kind of exciting? We're all concerned about the problem but my study indicates that no one can definitely predict its gravity yet. Even if you're right in the result, you're still not right in expressing your belief about something so heavy without proper qualification. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 14:37:23 (EST)
From: stark raving burke Email: None To: Jim Subject: hold on where? to my breath ? Message: Well Jimbo, like you wanted me to read the blind watchmaker (and I did) you are hereby requested to go read that Gartner report. And also the senate year2000 commitee transcripts. Clearly we are fucked as a global community. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 16:10:26 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: stark raving burke Subject: hold on where? to my breath ? Message: Howdy stark raving burke, I WAS a little worried about y2k until I read the article you mentioned. Now I feel MUCH better about the whole thing. I just can't figure out what is so terrifying? The report says to expect some inconvenience, and prepare for it as you would for a bad storm. Hardly cataclysmic. But then you aren't stark raving for nothin, huh? Thanks for the pointer, bill. http://gartner12.gartnerweb.com/public/static/home/00073955.html Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 14:15:40 (EST)
From: hamzen Email: None To: stark raving burke Subject: the breath vampire Message: 'Large parts of the world will go through hell.' You mean they aren't now? Or do you mean including the west? Bit cynical that last one......;) Yeah read a few bits along these lines meself. And then you follow that up pretty quick, when the real environmental shit kicks in. Anybody see the report just out about possibly the first serious environmental effects of 'global warming', loads of coral reefs just upped and died on us this year, just like that, magic ain't it. Time to get wrecked and party methinks. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 14:58:55 (EST)
From: bill Email: None To: hamzen Subject: year 2000 Message: Hi Hamzen, I like your writings. Printed a few of them. I only mention it here because I am obsessed with taking care of contingincy planning now. In america, agriculture, food processing, import and export of foods and food bi-products transportation and shipping and distribution are lagging far behind in thier year 2000 efforts. Saudi arabia and venezuala are in trouble and the senate said they are not sure if america's alaskan oil fields will be able to produce. Soooo, price of gas and everything transported is garunteed to go up. 50% of water, gas, power, industries will experience at least one mission critical failure. On the bright side, for some amount of time, america will no longer be a superpower. maybe compared to others it still will be, but a vast array of weapons are not going to function. Oil and food alone are enough of a problem to contend with. But unfortunately, that wont be all. Since oil heat will go up in price, get a electric waterheater now because the now go for 100 used and hook it up and you can have both systems to switch back and forth to as need arises. Also, get used to the idea that everyone needs to have a garden. Get a motorcycle and a fishing pole. I know the best fishing lures and where to get them. Read the Senate Commitee meeting transcripts. Then you will act. And .....well, later for the big report. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 17:49:31 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: bill Subject: year 2000 Message: bill, The most important thing is to keep your head--don't panic. My ancestors didn't have hot water or anything when they came to this country, yet they survived and here I am! We can do whatever we have to do to survive. I don't think it's going to be as bad as people predict, as long as everyone keeps their wits about them. See you at 8, VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 18:57:42 (EST)
From: bb Email: None To: VP Subject: year 2000 Message: HI VP! I will be late. about 10 unfortuantely. what city do you live in? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 19:01:38 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: bb Subject: year 2000 Message: I live on the east coast. I'll see you at ten then. I will probably still be on line. :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 21:14:16 (EST)
From: Sir Bazil Cheeseman Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: VP Subject: year 2000 Message: Katie gave me the idea for this name on the MMT forum, so I'll use it and think of her. Bill; I haven't had hot water or central heating for over a week now and it's below zero in London tonight but I'm OK. You know, egg noodles are very cheap and you can just cook them by standing them in boiling water for 4 minutes and then do a nice stir frie with some vegitables and fish, chicken or pulses or whatever takes your fancy. This doesn't use much power and you could get a large stock of egg noodles by December 1999 and perhaps even invest in a primus stove, just in case. In Britain they are forecasting inconveniences but no major catastrophe in 2000. I think the Far Eastern countries and Russia are going to get it worse - they are totally unprepared. This means, of course, that the Far Eastern recession and depressed Russian economy will be multiplied a hundred fold and will cause a major world recession, like we've never seen before. The danger is that revolutions will break out in some of these countries and cause massive political instability. I predict there will be another Russian Revolution and possibly a new uprising in China. There is a serious danger of another nuclear powerstation accident in Russia too because the main problem with 2000 is the embedded chips which are in all post 1960s technology. Telephone systems the world over will stop working and money markets will become unstable and erratic. The most promosing predictions are for a World recession lasting for about three years. By the way, the effects of the 2000 bug will be felt by the Spring of 1999 as companies attempt to do business for the next financial year. By the Autumn (Fall) of 1999, hospitals will be having problems with waiting lists and admitting patients because of the shortage of 2000 bug proof equipment. We won't have to wait until 2000 to see the effects, they will start to happen in a few months. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 15, 1998 at 22:15:38 (EST)
From: Diz Email: None To: Jim Subject: Katmandu report now in! Message: This is K-lite?? I rest my case that nothing much has changed. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 14, 1998 at 12:42:59 (EST)
From: seymour Email: None To: Everyone Subject: He's done me no harm Message: Hi y'all, JW wrote below 'One thing I can do is to 'answer back' when I do find myself in a situation where a premie hands me a premie concept which I don't agree with. I can say what I really think. In fact, I do tend to do this. Although it gets me pretty fired up - the last couple of times I was surprised how strongly I felt.' which sort of relates to my own experience. Last week I got into a conversation with a premie couple who I invited over for dinner as I had not seen them for a while. They know that I am not too strong on going to events and practicing the techniques but they still regard me as premie who is just a bit off the rails rather than an ex-premie. I try not to be outwardly hostile as they have both been good friends for many years and I know that if I started being insulting to Maharaji or ridiculing their beliefs they would no longer visit and I would miss them. This is a shame but I find myself often having to perform this sort of 'suppression of expression'. I know that I cannot criticise the Catholic Church when I visit my relatives as when I have done in the past it has resulted in a crazy argument in which both sides are saying that the other is foolish and narrow minded. Someone always gets so upset they end up in tears because I have got so animated in my wish to get them to see that their beliefs are irrational and nothing but superstition and a rift has been created between us. Thankfully this has now blown over and all is well between us - so long as the subject of religion is not mentioned. Anyway my two old mates and I were talking, as we often do, about the meaning of life etc. and I 'came out' - telling them as politely as I could that I no longer respected M and thought that his opinions on how we should be spending our time in order to achieve some sort of higher consciousness were no wiser than those the lady in the local bakers ( who has all the answers regarding crime, unemployment and what each of us should do to have a happy life, and it seems to work for her). I thought hey took this quite well saying that I was entitled to my opinion and that they wished me every happiness. Unfortunately this response had an irritating effect on me and I went on to say that I thought that not only was M mistaken in his perspective on life, but that he was uncaring and insensitive to the harm his teachings had done to many of his followers. I pointed out that some people had killed themselves as a result of feeling inadequate as a premie,and many others given all they owned and all of their time for a good portion of their lives in order to serve his pipe dream. This did not go down so well and our normal camaraderie started to descend into an unpleasant exchange of insults. The thing that really did it for me is when they said 'Even if any of this is true (i.e. that M had been responsible for causing other people's distress) he has never done us any harm and only made our lives better so why should we give up following him?' This is terrible. It's like saying 'I enjoy a game of chess with my mate Hitler, and just because a few Jews think he a terrible man will not stop me' It's like retaining a cordial relationship with someone who you know is a racist, or has just had an affair with your best friend's wife, or trusting a doctor that is known to have made others worse by the treatment he has given. In fact it is quite like the right wing philosophy of 'I'm alright jack and why should I worry about you?' Needless to say, we parted under a cloud and, sadly, I doubt that they will be coming round for dinner in the near future. I am sad because we have been friends for a long time but I can understand that they now see me as someone with whom they would not wish to associate in the same way that I would view the racist or the adulterer. Loyalty is of great importance(IMHO) and they cannot be loyal to Maharaji and hang out with someone who has given the thumbs down to the product that he is promoting. What can you do? Cheers Seymour Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 14, 1998 at 12:54:52 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: seymour Subject: Yea, I know that one Message: Seymour, I got this email from an old premie friend I once knew years ago. He was a community premie who was always more reserved than I was about trusting Maharaji. Here's what he said: Just read your comments in the Journeys Section of ex-premie.com and couldn't help but notice that you left Maharaji in 1981. Subtract 81 from 98 and you'll discover that that was 17 years ago. I guess what I'm trying to say here is GET THE FUCK OVER IT! So, I wrote him back trying to get a conversation going. No luck. After a few exchanges I gave him the last word which included, amongst other comments, his observation that evolution's a 'crock' and Darwin full of shit. He told me there's no point trying to relate cordially to one another. After all, I'm dissing HIS guru. Hey, I thought he was MY guru too! Interesting question: Can a premie accept the fact of evolution and, in particular, natural selection? Here's to friends we've lost in the name of truth. Here's an interesting Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 14, 1998 at 13:00:36 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: seymour Subject: Ethical blindspots Message: I'm sorry you may have lost your friends but I admire your courage. I agree with what you did 100%. You know, you may have planted a seed... it may be the start of a drip, drip, drip. Then again, it may not be, But I think you did the right thing so your conscience can be clear ( although I know you are sad, and rightfully so). SOmehow I think the premie thing is different from arguing about Catholicism. My Catholic friends may enage in some beliefs that I find fantastic (like praying to saints, etc), but they do not drop me if we have a dicussion about religion. Of course, I would never want to insult them, but if it comes up, I can say 'I disagree' and I do not fear that a friendship will be destroyed over it. Of course, if they were family members the conversation might get hotter and more combustive as it has in your case with your Catholic relatives. See-more, you're a good person. Your intent was not to harm but to confront evil. So Hang in there, dude. Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 14, 1998 at 14:27:51 (EST)
From: Joy Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com To: seymour Subject: He's done me no harm Message: Seymour, I feel bad that that had to happen to you with your friends. This is a subject I have a lot of feelings about, since I still, after almost 20 years, have quite a lot of very good premie friends in my life. The subject of M never comes up with any of them (but one, and he/she's a closet lurker here for the fun of it, so we have very friendly discussions often). I think it's important not to beat people up with our beliefs (remember doing that as a premie?), no matter what they are, and you have to decide if your dislike of M and his organization is stronger than your like/love for your friends. I find it great fun and very therapeutic to come here on the web site and trash the hell out of Maharaji and the whole trip, but in real life I like to be a lot more diplomatic with my premie friends, as I wouldn't want THEM attacking me for being an ex and trying to reconvert me. Guess it sort of comes down to tolerance. I feel it's unfair to compare premies to racists or Hitler, as premies are not really harming anyone else (unlike racists or Hitler). Knowledge Lite these days is pretty benign. We're all grown-ups now, and if my friends (a lot of whom are pretty successful on the material level) want to continue to follow him and derive inspiration from his insipid teachings, that's their prerogative. I still love them as the wonderful people they always were and while I may feel a twinge of annoyance that thay haven't 'gotten it' yet, again, it's their lives, and I don't feel I have any right to preach to them. (They probably feel the same twinge of annoyance at my being an 'ex' and having fallen 'off the path'.) But we don't let it get in the way. About half my family are fundamentalist Christians so perhaps I've learned how to hold my tongue in the face of bullshit, for the sake of the relationship. But I feel tolerance towards anothers' religious beliefs is just as importance as, say, racial or sexual preference toleance, and our feelings towards premies, as individuals and old friends, should be no different than towards anyone else. I know it can be hard, while just discovering your newfound ability to think for yourself and I know how liberating it is to finally be able to say negative things about the BM, when for so many years only the blandest form of worship was allowed, but I think it's kind of necessary to keep it close to your chest (i.e. among others who feel the same way or else here at the site) when dealing with premies who are your friends, if you want to keep them as friends. You have to decide before engaging in this type of dialogue if you really want to keep these people in your life, if you truly value them as friends, and separate the BM and cult issue out from your friendship. It *is* possible to have discussions about it, but only if the people are willing and bring it up themselves, otherwise they will feel threatened and shy away from you, and if you do engage in the discussion, keep it as light and non-judgmental as possible. These folks are adults now and can think for themselves, and a few appropriate comments can take root in their own time. If we try and beat people over the head with our beliefs, they tend to close up and not hear anything you're saying. The majority of my premie friends have never mentioned to me anything about being an ex, or tried to reconvert me or ever bring the subject up, so to them I never say anything about it at all. My one other premie friend likes to engage in friendly banter about the whole thing, so that's always fun, but it's imperative not to get personal about it. For me, I feel that the very best thing I got out of my ten years with Maharaji were the wonderful friendships that I made with people I would most likely never have met otherwise: interesting, funny, creative, super-intelligent, caring people with a spiritual side to them that you almost never come across in the ordinary person. Maybe this is just my personality, I've never been one to engage in conflict-type arguments, it's too stressful for me, so this is how I deal with the whole thing with my premie friends. Other personality types might be different, but for me, I find this works best. Best of luck to you, Seymour, and if you really would still like to be friends with these folks, it's probably possible to repair the relationship and continue, just avoid these types of discussions in future or else they really will be gone from your life for good. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 13:51:31 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Joy Subject: Thanks, Joy Message: Joy, That was a very insightful post. It was very helpful for me to read that. Thanks for taking the time to write it. One thing to Seymour, if this friendship has been based ONLY on having M in common, than you can expect to drift from these people. If these friendships are based on other common interests, you can probably agree not to talk about it and still remain friends. Maybe you can give them a call and agree to disagree on this one subject. See you guys on Tuesday-snicker and thanks again, Joy! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 14:45:17 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Joy Subject: Very Well Said, Joy. Message: Gee, Joy, very well expressed. I think I should tell you again what a cool person you are! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 15:01:43 (EST)
From: Joy Email: None To: JW Subject: Very Well Said, Joy. Message: Thanks Joe, and VP. I think you're both pretty cool, too! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 14:06:22 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Joy Subject: Lame, Joy Message: Joy, you're too damn nice! I feel tolerance towards anothers' religious beliefs is just as importance as, say, racial or sexual preference tolerance.... I think it is perfectly fine to attack religious beliefs, as they are the source of a lot of grief in the world. On the other hand, you don't choose race or orientation, like you do your beliefs. Religious beliefs are ideas that you can change. The BM cult is not a healthy or good thing. Even if they are now adults, they have been indoctrinated into the BM cult in the most damaging and insidious ways. Are you trying to say that it's good WE got out of the cult, but it's OK for our friends to still be in it? Just because you don't like conflict? I don't know, Joy... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 15:23:52 (EST)
From: Joy Email: None To: Gerry Subject: I Don't Think So, Gerry Message: Yes, Gerry, that's exactly what I'm saying. As you say, people can choose for themselves what they wish to believe in, and as long as they don't appear to be hurting anyone else, why do we have a right to tell them our beliefs are better than theirs? Everybody thinks their beliefs, no matter what they are, are the true ones. It's when people try to bludgeon others over the head with their beliefs and impose them forcefully that the problems and strife in the world develop (e.g. Christian and Islamic fundamentalism). Guess I'm just a Buddhist at heart, but I don't believe in forcing my beliefs on other people or judging them for theirs. It's a very difficult thing to do in practice, as deep down we *all* believe we're in the right and everyone else who doesn't subscribe to the exact same philosophy is a little off. But it is a challenge I continually try to work on. Maybe you should take a comparative religion class and try and gain some empathy for others' viewpoints. It's not a matter of being nice, just having respect for another's culture and belief system and their fundamental human right to worship and believe whatever they heck they want. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 15:45:29 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Joy Subject: I Don't Think So, Gerry Message: Gerry: ' Are you trying to say that it's good WE got out of the cult, but it's OK for our friends to still be in it? Just because you don't like conflict?' Joy: 'Yes, Gerry, that's exactly what I'm saying.' More liberal think. Sorry for the label, but this is what this sounds like to me. why do we have a right to tell them our beliefs are better than theirs? That's not what I said (or implied.) Although we certainly have the right to do so. I recognize beliefs systems, including my own, to be nothing more than that: a belief. Not necessarily fact. In this case it's not a matter of belief systems. It's a matter of being tricked into a harmful cult and then further brainwashed to stay in it. To the premie's detriment and to the BM's benefit. PS: I have attended a comparative religion class. I think all religions suck. Some more than others. Just my belief... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 18:11:14 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Gerry Subject: I Don't Think So, Gerry Message: I wish my relatives weren't in a cult. I agree that they were tricked and brainwashed and that it is BAD. I also don't think it is ME who is going to change their minds. They have to change themselves or want to leave. Hell, I'm happy to discuss all of the reasons M is a fraud with them. I don't mind laying some very subtle cracks in the cement. I don't think hitting them over the head with a hammer is the way to go about this, at least in my situation. I may not agree with some of their values, but I still have to sit around the Thanksgiving bird with them. And that's life sometimes. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 19:00:39 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Gerry Subject: I Don't Think So, Gerry Message: Dear Gerry, I agree with Joy and VP. In fact, there is a good quote from Bob Mishler on this subject at: http://www.ex-premie.org/pages/helpline.htm I really don't think it helps to tell people their beliefs are wrong, especially if these beliefs are based on experience. There used to be a woman who posted often on this site who had been a very devoted premie, got out, but was still married to a very devoted premie. She tried ranting about Maharaji to him, and it was really destructive and didn't change his mind one bit. Now she's just trying to accept him (they love each other, and he wants her to stay, premie or not), and hope that he will see by her example that she's a lot happier now. It's very hard to do, but I think she's doing the right thing. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 17, 1998 at 19:10:54 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Katie Subject: I Don't Think So, Gerry Message: I think that's right, Katie. It's really a matter of what works and what doesn't more than some righteous need to confront people. Why confront someone you love with something you know they can't accept and destroy your relationship in the process? What have you gained by that? It will, of course, depend on the circumstances. It usually just doesn't work to tell someone that there experience, which can be very powerful and real, is somehow not what they think it is. I know when I was a premie that kind of confrontation certainly wouldn't have worked on me! It would have encouraged me to just limit communication with that person. Far from esposing some kind of liberal idealism, I think Joy and VP are just being pragmatic. I think the only thing I can say to premies who are friends is that, for me, I have discovered that the experience I was having as a premie, I had incorrectly attributed to Maharaji and knowledge. That doesn't mean that the experience wasn't real, it was just an error in attribution. I DID say this to premies and they seemed to accept it, but were a bit wary of me after that. What I didn't express to them was my anger at Maharaji for deceiving me. THAT I don't think they were ready to hear. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 12:49:03 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: JW, Katie Veep, Joy Subject: But they are hurting others! Message: Thanks for your thoughtful responses. Joy said:and as long as they don't appear to be hurting anyone else, why do we have a right to tell them our beliefs are better than theirs? My main point was not to bludgeon our loved ones, but to retain the right to point out the harm in the belief system they hold so dear. The problem I have with the attitude of 'oh let them be' is that they ARE harming themselves, their families and the community at large with their belief system. Granted their are many issues out there which are much more destructive, but this is the one we are dealing with, right? We all know what the cult does to indivduals, relationships, children. As long as there are still premies and propagation happening, I think there will be confrontation of some sort. Not necessarily brutal combat, but consistent pointing out of the flies in the ointment. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 18:27:46 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Gerry, Joy, JW, etc Subject: They don't have all the info Message: I've been following this thread and the friendship thread with great interest, appreciating what everyone has contributed. Premies really are in a data vacuum as far as I'm concerned. There's a big ethical diconnect there. I think it is important to point out those ethical issues: The lack of ethics that GM has. Truly a lot of them have no clue about what his lifestyle is really like, etc. I agree that bludgeoning won't do any good. We gotta deal with people where they are at. This is very good for me to read all the different perspectives on this because I just wrote a letter to my premie friend who sent me the video. I was blunt about how I see Maharaji but was very clear throughout about how much I value her friendship. The letter was like 1 page about GM and three more pages chitchat and other stuff. In other words, I'm trying to convey the message that 'Hey, let's not let this guy intrude into what has been a fantastic 20 year friendship' I can have the tendency to be very strident in my beliefs so I really appreciate the full spectrum of beliefs, attitudes and perspectives on this forum. It's like a cool drink of water on a sweltering day. Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 14, 1998 at 15:15:32 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: seymour Subject: He's done me no harm Message: I think you did right and you can only tell it like it is. I lost my premie friends in this way. But look, premies don't regard you as their friend if they are really following Maharaji's teachings. Premies, like Maharaji will regard personal relationships as unimportant, or at least that's what Maharaji (hypocritically) teaches. A premie's only relationship is with their mythical master. So why lose any sleep over people who want to live by such beliefs? Maharaji is a hypocritical monster who turns his followers into confused and cold people. He wants his devotees to be like him; callous and uncaring to people. People who stay with him may become like that. People who break away from him become the opposite. I realise now that I cannot have premie friends. Maharaji's doctrine is too harmful for me to want to pretend it's OK with people. Hey, it's about time we stopped him? Don't you think? It's about time we put an end to his stupid, selfish and cruel playing around with innocent people. It's about time we stopped the spoilt brat pretending he is God. About time we put an end to his trip for once and for all. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 14, 1998 at 20:32:05 (EST)
From: david m Email: None To: Sir David Subject: He's done me no harm/RIGHT Message: Hey SIR DAVID...Im with you man where do we start..you know what it really is about time the whole trip ends....david Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 15, 1998 at 10:19:33 (EST)
From: Sir D Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: david m Subject: Inform the press, Dave Message: I think that one of the best ways to really get up Maharaji's nose is to get as much press coverage of his events as possible. Last year at Amaroo, he got a bad press but it would have been much worse if some ex-premies had been interviewed by the press at that time rather than them just interviewing that old hippie bird (I forget her name) who's one of Maharaji's lackeys. And when there's Maharaji events anywhere in the world, the press can be informed and given a full background of Maharaji and his scheming ways. Now Maharaji hates bad press and it wouldn't be long before more events are cancelled, thus making his mission less and less profitable. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 15:00:14 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Sir D Subject: Inform the press, Dave Message: Good, point. The next time M comes to my area, if he ever does, he seems to be avoiding North America, I think I'll write a letter to the editor and inform the press about this website. That doesn't take too much work. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 14, 1998 at 17:32:41 (EST)
From: Selene Email: None To: seymour Subject: He's done me no harm Message: Yes, that has happened to me. You can go along with them, talk on all sorts of subjects. But doesn't the subject of M have to be broached eventually? How can we not express and how can premies not express, the feelings around M? After all, that's where the friendships began and for them, that is still what it is about. I sympathize with your apparrent loss, I have only recently been there, coming up on a year anniversary soon. I have gained much more than I have lost. In one year vs. 20. Your thoughts on it being like not discussing religion with your Catholic family got me thinking. Last week I told my very Catholic sister about this site. She and I are so out of touch, she thought I was still into the big/littleM. She was quite surprised and relieved to hear I had 'defected' I also told her I had not wanted to go back to Catholicism and that this whole experience has left me, if not an athiest, a pagan. She had NO problem with that. She was just relieved I wasn't into something scary like a 'cult' anymore. Of course I didn't bother saying I thought the Catholic Church was a huge cult. ah well.. I guess we pick our poisons. Or better yet, we leave behind the poisons, and pick our healthy new habits. Take care. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 14, 1998 at 17:59:15 (EST)
From: seymour Email: None To: Selene Subject: He's done me no harm Message: Hey, Jim, Helen, Joy, Sir David, Selene Thanks for the response. I have not had time to digest them all yet and I'm in no fit state to do so at the moment ( it's a bit late and I've had one too many glasses of wine) but I am touched. I am not too upset about the incident. I am sure we will be best of friends again one day - it was just that they were not concerned about the possiblity that someone we all knew ( i.e the LOTU) had behaved in a less than honourable manner. Perhaps they refused to entertain the possibility that M. could be like that. In a way this would be better than if they accepted that it could be true and continued to follow. This would mean that I have not got the best of friends after all for I do not wish to associate with people who turn a blind eye to injustice. Thanks again, I will try and respond again tomorrow Cheers Seymour Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 14, 1998 at 20:55:08 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: seymour Subject: He's done me no harm Message: People need to know who they're following. No one gave us a dossier about Maharaji explaing his strengths and weaknesses, explaining all the little skeletons in his closet, when we followed him. Hell, I didn't know shit about GM til I found this website. So you told your friends the truth, and they deserve to know it. Probably they'll sift thru many layers of denial & disbelief before a little light turns on. Basically I think premies are NOT self-centered narcissists and it will probably start to bug them that people have been hurt by the trip. Then reevaluation time will come, and drip, drip, drip. It doesn't happen all at once, it's a process of peeling away, if it happens too fast it's just too painful. Glad you're not obsessing about it Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 15, 1998 at 08:25:45 (EST)
From: seymour Email: None To: Helen et al Subject: He's done me no harm Message: Helen, You are probably right about 'the premie thing being different from arguing about Catholicism' although it's interesting how the Catholic church has changed over the last few decades - the Latin, the discussions about miracles etc. - it is much less strict and rife with outgrageous mystical superstitions than it was when I was a lad. This seems to be the way that Elan Vital trying to go. I suppose there are reasonable premies just as there are reasonable Catholics and I do have other premie friends who I enjoy a good argument with. They seem to enjoy it too, after all we are talking about something of great importance which is what we are supposed to be doing with this life? Many premies are not part of the 'enjoying life' crowd. They are giving the practise of knowledge their best shot and will continue to do so until something else comes along but do not mind talking openly about it and defending their beliefs. After all if the knowledge is real what is there to worry about? Laura, you have make some very good points. e.g. I think it's important not to beat people up with our beliefs (remember doing that as a premie?). Guilty as charged! I just can't help trying to communicate to others what I think I have discovered about life - especially if I think it will do them some good. I prefer someone to do the same to me rather than hide their feelings and carry on relating to me as an equal when they are always thinking 'what a fool' and hoping that one day I will see the light. I may never see the light if this person does not put up a convincing argument as to why it is important that I make the effort to see it. Yet I understand your point about tolerance. I am tolerant of all belief so long as it does not directly harm others, but I think if you adopt a belief you should not be offended if someone challenges it in a reasonable, non-insulting way. 'in real life I like to be a lot more diplomatic with my premie friends, as I wouldn't want THEM attacking me for being an ex and trying to reconvert me' I am sure that the reason more that you respect them and do not want to damage your relationship - why not let them try and reconvert you. Apart from some of the tedious, irritating premie speak, it at least opens a dialogue and you can begin to explain why you have chosen a different path. I think you may have misunderstood my analagies to racists etc. I did not mean to compare premies or Maharaji to these intolerant, immoral people - most premies I have met are good folk. I know that all this premie business is nothing compared to some of the injustices that have occurred throughout history. I was just comparing my two friends to those who are willing to retain a relationship with someone, even though it is proven that that person has behaved dishonourably to others and refused to express sorrow or even admit it. If a good friend of yours was discovered to have acted selfishly and caused a lot of suffering to some of your other friends, you would surely be little cautious in future dealings with him/her. All that being said I agree very much with your statement. 'and I know how liberating it is to finally be able to say negative things about the BM, when for so many years only the blandest form of worship was allowed, but I think it's kind of necessary to keep it close to your chest ' I believe in some cases it is probably better to lie to someone than to insult them - as when the bride to be asks 'how do I look' you are not going to say 'I've seen better brides and you could do with losing a bit of weight'. It wouldn't help to make her day that much more 'special'. I hope that all this does not sound like I am trying to argue with you Laura, as I think you are right. If I want to keep premie friends then I should not get into discussions about M and K. It's a shame though,as we all ( my group of friends) started out together trying to find the rhyme and reason for our existence and I am still doing the same but cannot talk to them about it. David, I know this only too well.. 'Premies, like Maharaji will regard personal relationships as unimportant' I think this was one of the major factors in my initial reluctance to join up and my decision to leave. However the are different degrees of brainwashing and many premies take this philosphy with a pinch of salt. I do find it nasty though. One good thing that has come out of the wasted years is my reaffirmed belief that there is nothing higher than our relationship with each other and whatever path we follow must include the respect for fellow human beings. I am sorry to hear that you have no premie friends. I still have a few and they are great people, after all we were premies once and I know I retained my concern for my friends, it's just that what I thought was good for them i.e. getting knowledge, may have done them more harm than good - but I pestered them with the best intentions. Selene, it sounds like you have a kind sister who cares about what you do. At least Catholics respect family ties a lot more than premies do. Catholicism or even the Hindu foundation for Elan Vital are possibly not so bad. Most of the Christian ideas were plagiarised from Plato, who was a number one best seller around the time of Christ and all religions contain much wisdom and common sense. It's just that these discoveries about the human condition are commandered by someone who adds a bit of mystery and a lot of superstition. This individual or group then package the ideas and give them their own brand name saying that in order to benefit from these discoveries you must perform the rites and rituals they specify. This creates a comfy little club with an exclusive membership of fellow travellers on the road to heaven, nirvana, enlightenment or satchitanand. The truth is that every individual is trying to find the best way to get through this life and can come up with just as good an answer as anyone else, gurus included, if they put the effort in. Cheers Seymour Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 15, 1998 at 09:10:27 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: seymour Subject: He's done me no harm Message: ANd the Catholic church has done some harmful things like reassigning known pedaphiles to different churches without informing the parishiners--in other words, trying to cover up a known criminal. And the pope claims to have some kind of holy transmission fm God making him in a direct line fm God & Jesus...and the Catholic church kicks outs priests who don't tow the party line on gays, abortion etc. However, they are very clear about the doctrine so that people know what they are getting themselves into before they convert. However little children having religion shoved down their throats do not have the chance to choose. On the other hand, I know MANY Catholics who are teaching religion to their childrenin a developmentally appropriate, non-fearful, healthy way. And the Catholic charities do a lot of good around the world and there are liberal Catholic churches& intellectual institutions like fine Catholic schools & universities (my garduate training at Catholic U. of America was fabulous) doing a good job teaching kids and providing a loving environment for them Oy vey, this religion discussion could go on forever, no? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 15, 1998 at 12:18:54 (EST)
From: Laura Email: None To: Helen Subject: He's done me no harm Message: You write, 'And the Catholic church has done some harmful things' Some harmful things? Remember the Inquisition? Teaching children religion in a healthy way? Non-fearful way? Helen, I have read most of your posts and something is wrong here. Doesn't any religion separate us from other people because of different beliefs? What about Seymour and his friends, being separated from each other because of beliefs? How can any religion be good? Isn't that why we went to MJ, because we didn't believe in religion? (Never mind that we got waylaid(SP?) for a while) With all due respect, have you had your coffee yet today? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 15, 1998 at 13:45:52 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Laura Subject: He's done me no harm Message: Well, I do see what you are saying. It does appear at times that religion has done more harm than good in this world--ie, the inquisition. Perhaps I'm guilty of the same type of reasoning as Seymour's friends--the Catholic church didn't do me harm so I have trouble totally dismissing it as all bad. All I can say is that the Catholic friends I have ARE raising strong caring children--probably they are supplementing Catholic teachings with teaching thier children to be strong. Probably they are able to compartmentalize the bad stuff and see the good stuff. I don't see all religion as bad. I don't see all religion as separating people. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 15, 1998 at 19:12:15 (EST)
From: Laura Email: None To: Helen Subject: He's done me no harm Message: Do you see religion as uniting some people, say Catholics into one group. And then Jews united together in another group, and Presbyterians in another, and Lutherans into another group, and Buddhists into another group, and Calvinists in another group,and Muslims into another group, and I know you get the idea. Aren't these groups separate from each other, and kept separate because of their religious beliefs? They ALL think their way is the best way, the only way, the true way. They have let themselves be set up and are perpetuating untruths by teaching their children what they Believe, what they have been Told. Just like we did with Knowledge. And what they have been told, what they believe, is just that BELIEF, not TRUTH. Anyway, that's what I believe:) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 15, 1998 at 22:07:53 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Laura Subject: He's done me no harm Message: Laura, I think that some of the people in those groups may believe that their way is the only way. But there are other people who just believe that their religion is right for them. I think that there is a continuum when it comes to religion/spirituality. On the one end of the continuum, you have folks who use thier minds and don't go around feeling superior and telling other people they are going to hell, and on the other end of the continuum you have religious fanatics who scare their children or blow up abortion clinics in the name of God. There are so many differnt types of spiritual and religious people that I cannot paint them all with the same brush saying that they are all repeating lies that they have been told. I was raised in a very liberal religion but I have friends who are Jewish,& Catholic who are some of the most open, embracing, loving people I know. I go to a Christian church (Not a fundamentalist church) and they embrace me, knowing that I do not believe that Christ was the SOn of God who died for our sins. In fact, noone there has ever tried to tell me anything or make me believe anything. They prefer for me to not be a phoney baloney about my beliefs. My church is a loving place, not at all a harmful place, in the sense that I believe GM is harmful. Also my church is part of Rockville COmmunity Ministries which is a group of churches and synagogues who do things in the community such as running the homeless shelter, literacy work, etc. They work in unity for a common goal. To me (and to the folks in my church) ministry means giving to others, helping those who are hurting, because we all part of the human race. Ministry DOESN'T mean going around trying to convert people. I don't put all religious or spiritual expression in the same category as the cultish Guru trip we were all into. Of course some people are so 'brainwashed' by all the minutae of their religions that they stop thinking for themselves and become trapped in their own little world, forgetting that their little perspective is not the be all and end all of the universe. But, most religious people I know are not like that at all. Were you brought up Catholic? DO you believe in God ? Did you believe in God when you followed GM? I'm very curious about how people end up with the beliefs they have. I seem to have been unscathed by religion--I have never been anti-religion. LOve, Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 15, 1998 at 22:22:42 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: Helen and Laura Subject: He's done me no harm Message: Umm, I'm not sure if I should jump in here, but since I am a priest and involved with organised religion, I just wanted to say that all religions have good people and bad people, people who try to control others and those who actually try to help others, and all have done both good and evil. All faiths have fundamentalists who proclaim that anyone disagreeing with their faith will burn forever, or do not really know God, etc. There are those who use religion to divide while others use it to unite. There is some movement among members of some religions to find ways to work together. The Bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of California, William Swing, has been traveling around the world speaking with the leaders of religions to form the United Religions, a group similar to the United Nations, where religions can come together and talk and try to work things out. Of course, there are people in some Christian churches who believe he is the anti-christ, while others see this movement as a source of hope. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 07:59:35 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: He's done me no harm Message: Pleae, jump in, jump in! Thanks! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 07:27:27 (EST)
From: op Email: None To: Laura Subject: He's done me no harm Message: This discussion has reminded me of two of my favorite 'religion' jokes - no deep stuff intended here, ok? Selene wrote: She was quite surprised and relieved to hear I had 'defected' I also told her I had not wanted to go back to Catholicism and that this whole experience has left me, if not an athiest, a pagan. She had NO problem with that. She was just relieved I wasn't into something scary like a 'cult' anymore. So, three nuns decide to quit the convent and go to their Mother Superior to tell her of their decision. Mum says: 'That's all well and good, but I have to make sure you're each making the right decision.' She asks nun number one what she will do after leaving the convent, and the answer is: 'I want to be a teacher.' 'Hmmm,' says M.S. 'That is a very worthwhile profession. You have my blessing.' Nun number two has decided to become a nurse. Again the Mother Superior gives her blessing, and then turns to number three. 'And you, my child? What will you do when you leave the convent?' 'I've decided to become a prostitute.' At which Mother Superior faints dead away. Several colleagues rush to revive her and as she re-awakens, surrounded by black robes and smelling salts, she asks, faintly: 'Wh-what did you say?' 'I said I want to be a prostitute.' 'Oh, that's ok then. I thought you said a Protestant!' -------------------------------------------------------- And then, just a couple of posts later, as if on cue, Helen says: ...say Catholics into one group. And then Jews united together in another group, and Presbyterians in another, and Lutherans into another group, and Buddhists into another group, and Calvinists in another group,and Muslims into another group, and I know you get the idea. Aren't these groups separate from each other, and kept separate because of their religious beliefs? A very pious man dies and is whisked immediately to heaven, where he is met at the gates by Saint Peter. The man, curious by nature, asks if he can have a tour of the place where he will spend all eternity, and St. Pete is very happy to oblige. They walk down a long hallway, with innumerable rooms (somehow, this part of the joke has always reminded me of Alice in Wonderland trying to get to her magical garden, but that, of course, is a different story). As they pass the first room, the newly deceased hears strains of sitars and harmoniums, with sweet voices answering back in bhajans. 'Those are the Hindus,' says St. Pete. 'They love to sing.' Next room, there is a lively stomping of feet and the sound of klesmer rhythms. 'Those are the Hassids. They love to party and dance all night.' The next room they pass sends out wafts of incense and is filled with the sound of deep-toned chanting. 'Those are the Mahayana Buddhists. They chant incessantly,' explains Pete. The next room is oddly silent, except for a few subdued murmurs. 'What goes on in there?' asks our curious traveler. 'Shhhhh,' admonishes St. Pete. 'Those are the Catholics. They think they're the only ones here.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 15, 1998 at 12:10:47 (EST)
From: Laura Email: None To: seymour Subject: He's done me no harm Message: Good morning Seymour. You referenced me twice in your post but it was Joy who responded to you. Since I have extreme difficulty with any relationship, premie or ex-premie, I didn't think it fit to respond to you although I feel and can understand your situation. It is difficult to find people you can have fun with and Respect at the same time. If you can't respect your friends then they're not your friends are they? I have also recently been thinking about the question which you just brought up, What is the purpose of life? I previously thought it was extremely important to find out the answer to this. Now I think I'm beating the question to death and missing my life in order to find the answer. Let me know what you think, O.K.? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 15, 1998 at 22:02:35 (EST)
From: Diz Email: None To: seymour Subject: He's done me no harm Message: I liked your question, and your answer to everyone's comments. You do strike me as someone who anyone would be lucky to have as a friend. Hope your friends, premie and otherwise, appreciate that. BTW, you got me and JW muddled, that was my quote you started the thread with. I have a small handful of premie friends left. We mostly avoid the subject of MJ. I did get hurt - so if someone were to say to me that it doesn't matter to them if others got hurt, then I would tend to take that personally. To be fair, no one's tried this line on me, perhaps for obvious reasons. I worry about other people getting hurt by MJ, and by premies who are into his scene. I DON'T agree that K-lite is harmless - I see the same problems happening now that happened in the old days - people giving all their time, money, energy to serve MJ, neglecting family and friends, lying - or at least running parallel realities, one for those who REALLY understand and appreciate MJ, the other for those in darkness or still being pulled towards true understanding. It's better packaged now, but the message that K and MJ are all that really matters is the same. And thus, IMO, the dangers are still there. I admire your raising the issues that you see with your premie friends. I think it's partly a question of whether you can see any point in doing so. Many premies are so deeply committed to Mj's whole trip, that to turn around would be unthinkable. Remember, these guys are bombarded with the message several nights a week, couresty of videos, and know that what they think is 'their gift to themself' - ie that any negative thought (about MJ, that is) is a no no. I was thinking when you gave that Hitler/racist analogy about the friend of mine who has a great aversion to some other people I know, who are into a particular philosophy. My first friend has good reason for her dislike, as they did reject her for not toeing the line, and she needed the support she lost greatly. I think some of people who rejected her would like to re-establish contact, but there's no way my first friend would give them the time of day. I like and respect many things about all these people, including those who caused the hurt. I do wonder whether this is ethical of me. I think there's some difference here in that none of these people consider themselves to be informed by God. Well, mostly that's the case - in fact the thing that really gets me is the righteousness of some of the trip these people are into - I think that's a big factor. The problem with MJ is that he reckons he knows it all. So there's no room for constructive criticism, or even for differences of opinion. There's equally no room for premies to really consider any damage that MJ may have caused, because then the basic premise - that he's got it all right and always has had - is under threat. To consider any downside to Mj's message and doings is thus to question everything - and it takes a great deal of courage for a premie to do that. Hence all the rationalisations that Nigel wrote the 'apologists' poem about below (hey, Nigel, you did it again!) So is it worth taking on that tight, closed, construction that is a premie's understanding of Mj with every premie you know or meet? Sometimes, it probably isn't. I don't think I've followed the logical threads through in the above. Just some thoughts. I'm trying to sort this stuff out for myself, too. Best wishes, Seymour Diz Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 15, 1998 at 11:14:52 (EST)
From: bill Email: None To: seymour Subject: He's done me no harm Message: sometimes it takes people a while to digest all you said and also, they might have responded differently if it was just one of them rather than two. You helped them by breaching the fraud issue. something in them is happier for it. some freedom gene. or the invisible bully called god Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 14:54:39 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: seymour Subject: He's done me no harm Message: The thing that really did it for me is when they said 'Even if any of this is true (i.e. that M had been responsible for causing other people's distress) he has never done us any harm and only made our lives better so why should we give up following him?' This is terrible. Yes, it IS terrible, and I have also heard this before. It is right in line with the premie/Maharaji philosophy that goes something like: 'if I am having a good time, who cares?' Or, 'if I am enjoyinglife, who cares?' Maharaji has always been a shining example of this mentality both in what he says, but more in how he acts. The problem is, if you let Maharaji destroy your principles to the point you can even say something like your friends said, what does that say for the supposed love and truth that his trip is supposed to be about? It's a very sorry state. Plus, it's a convenient rationalization, because if you really considered, and didn't discard, the truth about what Maharaji has done, you would be forced to question your own belief system, and that can be fairly painful, as many of us exes know. So, just deciding not to look beyond the tip of your nose is a way to avoid that. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |