Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum III Archive # 29 | |
From: Nov 14, 1998 |
To: Nov 27, 1998 |
Page: 3 Of: 5 |
Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 15:14:53 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Bruce and Golden Oldie Message: Another worthwhile read is the conversation between Bruce and Golden Oldie over on the uncensored premie page: http://www.paradise-web.com/plus_le/plus.mirage?who=premieforum Can you imagine if all the premies had maintained some self-respect like Golden Oldie has? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 15:00:45 (EST)
From: AE Email: None To: Everyone Subject: More stuff on BM's web site Message: More new stuff on Maharaji's web site. Just read how I dressed up as God to get the full story. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 15:12:02 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: AE Subject: Keep going.... Message: AE: This stuff is great! To think that we worshipped a guy that looks like an overweight Christmas tree (ornaments and all) is totally beyond me, now!.....he he he :-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 16:56:30 (EST)
From: srb Email: None To: Mike Subject: Keep going.... Message: boy, this is really a hoot. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 15:12:12 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: AE Subject: Really funny! Message: AE, Your page is great! My favorite line in this latest addition is: Often my devotees would beg me to dance for them so I used to oblige by waving my arms from side to side and they thought this was the divine dance of Lord Krishna. The fact was, that I was too fat to do a proper dance so waving my arms around seemed like the best option. But it's all good. Please carry on, carry on. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 16:22:22 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: AE Subject: More stuff on BM's web site Message: I can't wait to see what you come up with next. Great stuff, very amusing. About M's dancing, that really put a damper on my faith that he was the Lord. You'd think the Lord would have a little more rhythm. James Brown puts M to shame. Hey, maybe... nah, he's the Godfather Of Soul. Now, THAT's a title worth having. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 17:05:33 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: AE Subject: Right to the point ! Message: You konw what I finally figured out? When the BM's father started his own schismatic group, he couldn't play on the other Sant Mat's gurus ground for various reasons, one of them He is NOT Sikh, when they all are, and he couldn't match those Sant Mat gurus, they had millions of followers. He had to find another style to attract another type of audience. He decided to play an other game for the Hinduists I guess. those 'krishna' outfits are used in India to put clothes on those krishna statues they have in temples everywhere on big feasts; everybody almost believes they are alive, they bring them food, take them out for processions, etc The idea is quite simple: he wears those outfits, plays his guru game, and the suckers follow the 'living lord' .... Genius idea Lord Rawat ! Your father had some brain! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 20:00:17 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Carmen Miranda again-nt Message: nt Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 21:07:16 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Please, JM Message: Jean-Michel, This is a really interesting idea you've got here. Could you please elaborate a bit? Was Shri Hans the only one of his tradition that played the Krishna card like that as far as you can tell? Were the rest all Sikhs? Isn't Maharaji one? I thought the name Prem Pal SINGH Rawat meant that he was? Que pasa, mon frere? Ciao! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 03:42:45 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Jim Subject: Please, JM Message: Was Shri Hans the only one of his tradition that played the Krishna card like that as far as you can tell? I've spent a lot of time in India, I've studied Indian civilisation for 1 year in university, I've read a lot of books about Hindu religion, I've attended 1 Khumba Mela, and I haven't seen ANY guru, or read about, dressed like that, even for ceremonies. As far as I know, the only *thing* wearing this outfit are the Hindu statues in the Hinduist temples, - some wear this outfit all the time, and the priest take care of them, change their dresses, give them offering etc -some wear them only on special occasions I think we should check this with Ratty Ji, maybe also with Dr D. Lane, and maybe some hindu traditions specialist. Were the rest all Sikhs? From what you can see on their pictures (I have some of them on my site, and quite some are available on the various Sant Mat - Radhasoami web sites), they all wear the traditional Sikh costume. + they are all very active in the Sikh regions of India (Punjab), which means in India (the costume is a very strong indication of your religion - background - social group - cast) that they ARE Sikh. Isn't Maharaji one? I thought the name Prem Pal SINGH Rawat meant that he was? The fact that the Rawats have the 'Singh' particle in their name is not enough to say they are Sikh. Maybe some of their ancestors were a long time ago. This fact maybe explains Shri M's problem: he wanted to be the head of the group after his guru's death, but he knew he never would because of his origins. That's why he decided to split I guess. In case you don't know the Indians are very racists. Even though they tolerate each other well, they wouldn't not allow someone who's not from their cast to take some importance in their group. I haven't seen any picture of any of the Rawat wearing the traditional Sikh costume. They clearly wear the costume of traditional Hinduists. I think we should ask some Indians specialists advice... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 05:17:28 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Jim Subject: Please, JM: more Message: Maybe the Rawat is really a Sikh family, but I don't understand their status (they have to have one according to the Indian traditions, specially as gurus ...) Their names ARE Sikh names: prempal, satpal, dharampal (raja) ARE definitely Sikh traditional names. Shaved heads are not from the Sikh tradition. Shri M's pictures when he was young don't show any long hair or turban as he should have wear. If they are a Sikh family (the singh particle, and the christian names indicate they should be), Shri M clearly separated himself from his origins for some reasons. Was it because of his ambitions? Did he do that before? If you read his 'official' biography, as published by DLM, it also indicates he had been involved in politics before his religious involvement, and maybe that's the time he got rid of his hair, beard and turban. And maybe when you adopt that status in India, you can't go back to your previous (religious) status. Specially when you preach that 'knowledge' takes you beyond all those differences, why should you indicate them. And then he was stuck there himself, with his ambitions, and the Sikh gurus of his new tradition ..... This is all very plausible ... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 21:14:37 (EST)
From: AE Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Right to the point ! Message: I think you've got something there, Jean-Michel. Much of the credit for BM's new web site must go to you, by the way, for putting those pictures on the net in the first place. There's a lot more to come on BMs web site. How about a page on how to give a knowledge review and nip out for a smoke while the suckers are all meditating. Oh yes, I think I'm channeling big M now... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 13:53:21 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Maximizing the expose's effect Message: This is a fresh 'Expression' on ELK: Brilliant T-shirt offer from Visions Dear Mark, Josie, Colin and Jonathan I want to thank you for putting together this site. I've spent a lot of time navigating the web for various reasons, and much of the time it's frustrating and tedious. Anyone who has spent any time travelling the interstate highways in the US knows that positioned at strategic points are rest areas for the tired traveller. I find your site provides this needed respite. We at Visions International have decided to let our customers know about your site. We thought it would be fun to print a T-shirt with artwork resembling your home page and the site address, and to send it free along with orders placed during the next month. I'd offer to give you the feedback from our customers, but I have a feeling you will be seeing it first! Thanks for your efforts. Warm regards Tom Hagan Manager, Visions International EL: Tom, Thanks for this brilliant and supportive offer. We missed your email of 13 November as we were working on the site from Delhi and Kathmandu. We look forward to hearing from your customers. So we've had our fun and proven our point in spades. The folks at ELK are sincere in one respect only: they honestly want to assist their cult leader represent himself however he sees fit. Their loyalties are to him and they're willing to complete garble the voices of his followers in order to make them sound like harmonious puppets, rather than real people. Sure, we never expected otherwise but now the point's proven beyond question. So what's next? One thing that seems clear is that the ELKies are planning to simply carry on as if nothing's happened. It'll be interesting to see how they safeguard against tricks like ours in the future but that's a minor detail. There's no reason for us to test the waters again (other than giving Nigel a chance to practise another dialect. Those posts last night by 'Wili' were so smart, I kept laughing hours later just thinking about them). But as the above post and reply show, the ELKies are at least pretending to be shameless. I guess a lifetime of astrology can do that for someone. I think one effect of all this is that premies, more than ever beofre, will be trained to ignore dissent and us in particular. Taking on the blinders for Maharaji will be deemed an overt act of devotion. Hell, they might even start selling symbolic blinders at events. In any event, I may be wrong but I think we're going to have much less interaction with premies overall. Collectively, they're lowering their self-image to the extent that honest expression is seen as an unnecessary 'freedom'. After all, why express anything else when you can cry over your keyboard at the expressions of love? This is, admittedly, really frustrating for me. I thrive on dialogue. I walked into the cult on dialogue and out the same way. Sure, thee was a lot of 'feeling' and 'vibe' but always there were words. Now we've got our own but the premies are battening down the hatches and learning to feign deafness. Oh well. One thing I think would be really neat would be, as I suggested earlier, putting up a permanent page, preferably part of this site, with the expose neatly presented. The key thing is that it be findable by the search engines under 'Enjoyinglife' as well as 'Maharaji'. I think the best effect we can ever have with this stunt is fixing it forever to ELK like a scarlet 'C'. Let it stand as a permanent testament to the price of faith in the Maharaji. What do you guys think? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 14:30:26 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Jim Subject: Puppet.com Message: I'm all for a premie web-site where HONEST expression was allowed. Where people could talk about the LORD that they follow...or whatever they call him these days. A place where the past and future are resolved, a place where Maharaji apologizes...OOPS!! I got a little carried away on that, didn't I? But if free speech were allowed instead of suppression of expression, I'd be for it. I wouldn't hang out there, but I think it would be a good thing. Since ELK is not such a place, I have no respect for it. Who would wear a shirt from this Puppet.com? Can you imagine trying to explain that shirt to someone, Jim? What if (after seeing your t shirt) your friends went to the site and read something. How embarrassing. A site for the weary traveller? Sheesh! A place for the brain to rest, ok. Jim, if you think how frustrated you are getting no response from them, just imagine ELK's frustration. They were HAD, yet they aren't speaking about it publically. I doubt they are allowed. At least you got an answer from Bruce-snicker :) I guess you should ask Brian about setting that up as a page. He's going to have to do the work. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 16:30:34 (EST)
From: SHP Email: None To: Jim Subject: Dialog here with a premie-live Message: Jim: You said: 'This is, admittedly, really frustrating for me. I thrive on dialogue. I walked into the cult on dialogue and out the same way. Sure, there was a lot of 'feeling' and 'vibe' but always there were words. Now we've got our own but the premies are battening down the hatches and learning to feign deafness. Oh well.' At the risk of being slammed all over your website, taken out of context and sushied (I must say you all are good at that!), I am making an effort to communicate with you from across the 'gap'. I don't feign deafness. Your expression of frustration touched me because I thrive on dialog as well. I have not become brain-dead, and did not spend the first half of my life looking for truth to be fooled into forfeiting myself to the carnival sideshow that you paint Maharaji to be, from whatever experiences you have had. And I say that with all due respect that your feelings are sincere and that you are most certainly entitled to them and have the freedom to express them to anyone and anywhere you wish. You have free will. I never blindly followed anyone, am aware of all the same factoids that you are about Maharaji; we seem to see and interpret these events differently in the big picture. Although I am still practicing Knowledge and respect Maharaji despite all the apparent contradictions (maybe we can go into that later), let me just say that I understand first-hand some of the frustrations that some of you 'ex-ers' have put forth. There are people with Knowledge in my community who are bullies, jerks, snobs and assholes in general, based on their treatment of myself and some other members of the community. If I were a newcomer and either witnessed or personally experienced some of the stuff I have, I'd be out of there fast. I have met instructors that were screwed up, based on their behavior. I have sat at programs and questioned Majharaji's words as he was saying them. Then something happened to me, like going to another level of perspective. I don't see this level change in me as a 'brainwash-final-rinse-spin-dry' stage, either. Having been in an esoteric order previous to receiving Knowledge, I have alot of old but what I believe is valid information about Jesus, if you will indulge me for a moment. It is recorded that he did things like walk through fields of corn between satsang gigs and his instructors (apostles) would pick ears, rub off the kernels and eat as they went. Sometimes they would do this travel and eat-as-you-go thing on the Sabbath. The Scribes and Pharisees were constanlty following him and looking for what they considered to be discrepencies between their concepts of the holy law, in order to bust Jesus. For the corn-picking and eating on the Sabbath, they reamed him for breaking the holiest law, to keep the Sabbath. The Master said the Sabbath is the not the lord of man, but visa-versa. When someone poured very expensive oil on his feet, one of his instructors criticized it because the oil could have been sold to feed the poor. When Jesus hung with known 'sinners' in the bars of those days, when he defended and befriended Mary Magdelene, a known 'loose woman', when he did many things, he blew minds and concepts constantly, which required his followers to look at the world from a different perspective than the culture had taught. I happen to believe that Maharaji, alleged warts and all, carries with him the same Knowledge and has the mission of bringing it to human beings on a global scale. He is not Jesus. (By the way, I am not your average person who accepted Jesus - personally, I believe that he got back to his Essene community alive after the crucifixion and most likely raised a family and lived a long and happy life. The books have really been messed with to keep whole populations in servitude - I tell you this so that you can guage who you are reading here is is not caught in anybody's box of concepts. I have come to my own conclusions based on my own experiences and intuitions.) There are many prophetic writings from many sources - (no, I don't have them here on my desktop to fax...you have probably heard the same ones I speak of already) - that talk of a young boy, a golden boy, who would turn the wheel of the law and bring the world into the Knowledge of God. From India to South America to Native North America, this prophecy has been spoken. My personal experience with Knowledge has brought peace to me, not a bigger paycheck, (as a matter of fact I am recently unemployed) or a better personality, or anything outer, but something inside that seems to fulfill a thirst I had that nothing else would satisfy. The feeling I got from practicing Knowledge seemed to coincide with all the stuff I had read in all the scriptures from many different religions, of that peak experience of fulfillment. Nobody told me this. I got it inside intuitively. That is all, period. If I did not achieve that from Knowledge, I'd still be looking around for the Common Denominator. For me, the plusses still outweigh the minusses. I just wanted to respond to your desire for dialog one-to-one, and let you know that all premies are not alike. Don't become a bigot. Don't become anti-premie. It's no better than anti-Semite, anti-black, or anti-anything. Take each person as an individual...don't assume that if you don't hear from many premies, then so-on-and-so-forth. There are thousands of premies who probably don't even know your sight exists, and thousands who have never seen their own site, or have a computer to view it on. And there are many others who don't give a shit about the dialog you and I hold so dearly between human beings. And I don't just mean premies, that's true of all people...have you heard the 80/20 rule? In any group, humanity included, 20% of the membership is active and does 80% of the work. The only person I can speak for is me, and I just want to wish you a really happy Thanksgiving season and beyond, nothwithstanding your ill-feelings about something that you obviously invested much time and energy into and for whatever reason were disappointed. Looking forward to your reply, and most likely some zingers from the kids. No problem. If I got pissed at some rude reply, then my experience of peace wouldn't be very deep now, would it? So, Jim, keep in touch if you wish. I hope we both live long enough to see the outcome of the drama that is unfolding on the planet, and survive the shit hitting the fan and live in peace on earth, not just under the sheet, but everywhere. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 16:53:53 (EST)
From: srb Email: None To: SHP Subject: Dialog here with a premie-live Message: there is a question for you on the 'in defense of maharaji' thread down below Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 17:32:42 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: SHP Subject: Dialog here with a premie-live Message: SHP: Hey... you have a sense of humor... I like it, to wit: 'I don't see this level change in me as a brainwash-final-rinse-spin-dry stage, either.' That's a good one, I gufaw'd when I read it. I hope you were smiling when you wrote it. Seriously though, you spoke about running into 'bullies, jerks, snobs and assholes in general.' I think we have all experienced this, too. There is just one question that I have for you, then: Since the proportion of those 'types' seems to be the same within the premie community AND the within the 'world,' what should make me think that you aren't just 'normally' a nice person? With or without M, I think that you would be 'enjoying your life.' You just THINK that you need some 'guru' to get you going. This is the insidious part of cults. They make you THINK that you are nothing without them, but in fact, you ARE something without them. In fact, you are worth MORE than they will ever let you believe you are. This really is the crux of the matter. Why were you supposedly 'miserable' before M and K? Was it a bit of an inferiority complex on your part? Did you 'feel' like you should be so much 'more?' Why? This, my friend, is the magic point where cult leaders make their grand entrance and gain a foothold in YOUR life. Then, anything (and I do mean ANYTHING) good that happens in your life is immediately attributed to the great 'guru.' Of course, anything 'bad' that happens is YOUR OWN FAULT, thus completing a depressing and never ending cycle of self-deprication. You know, really good things happen to alot of people who don't even know about your guru. There are alot of VERY happy people that don't even have a guru. Why is this? How can this be? If the guru is the source of all happiness, then those other 'ignorant folks' should be damned miserable, shouldn't they? But they aren't....Why? SHP, my question still stands from my last post to you.... After many years (MANY YEARS) why is it that there aren't any FULLY realized souls emerging from this cult? I know that I keep harping on this, but it's THE central point in any discussion that I have about M because this is what 'I' was promised and this is what 'I' didn't receive.... NOT EVEN A BIT! HE LIED! You said, 'look in the mirror' to see a realized soul... YOU ARE WRONG, because I AM NOT realized. 'I' should know my own 'state' of existence, because (as you say) it's MY experience! I can tell you absolutely, categorically and positively: I am no more realized now than when I supposedly 'received' K, more than 25 years ago.... PERIOD! There is one difference between 'then' and 'now,' though: I am no longer seeking enlightenment because I don't believe it exists. Do you know what a 'load' was lifted from me when I stopped believing in that? Two tons of 'rotten vegetables' were removed from my sorry carcus when I stopped seeking that never-attainable fantasy. I can stop beating myself up because I'm not 'attaining' that unattainable thing. I don't have to worry and worry and worry about 'being in my mind' because THAT is where I belong. Get it? NOW, I can just be with my wife and kid and friends. I can try to do whatever I can to help make the world a bit better, rather than spending time looking for something that is nothing more than a phantom. I can stop being 'SELF-ish'. So there it is... care to respond? Please don't try to tell me that I'm miserable, because YOU AIN'T ME, you know what I mean? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 18:10:10 (EST)
From: SHP Email: None To: Mike Subject: Dialog here with a premie-live Message: I wasn't miserable before M/K and I did not mean to assume you were either. I just felt/feel like we are all living in a very incredible time in earth/humanity development and M has a big part to play in it by spreading Knowledge. Long ago, you had to sit 20 years on a snowcapped peak or cave or something like that...then it got easier and easier until the point that now we have a Master who is trying to make it as easy and accessible as possible for as many human beings as possible. Some folks are never satisfied. So the Master gets criticized for making it difficult and also gets criticized for making it easy. Some of his critics have traced the techniques to some old school, yadda yadda. But the orifices and digits of our bodies are not the techniques, the attitude of the heart is the technique. There are people without hands or tongues who can practice and experience something beautiful, ya know? You're right, I am a nice guy and was before...as you probably are as well. I feel that despite all the apparent contradictions, M is the Living Master who reveals the Knowledge. This is from me, not a tape. I am close to 50, with K for 20 years, so we can relate. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 18:34:04 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: SHP Subject: Dialog here with a premie-live Message: Hi SHP - I am glad you weren't driven away by the negative responses you got a couple of days ago. I appreciated it when you said that you could accept them because the people were hurting. They are - I guess I should say WE are. We tend to be a bit defensive here - sometimes premies come on this forum and say some pretty abusive and obnoxious things. Also, some of the people on this site tend to go into a 'feeding frenzy' when a premie posts - I am sorry that it happened to you. Actually, most of the people who post here are pretty nice (believe it or not!). I am currently in a three-way discussion with two premies on another premie forum (not enjoyinglife.org), so I won't speak about Maharaji in this post. You can read what I have to say on there, and join in the discussion if you'd like. The URL (net address) is: http://www.paradise-web.com/plus_le/plus.mirage?who=premieforum I did want to say a few thing regarding your anti-corporation stance, and your interest in the use of hemp. The people on the ex-premie forum come from a wide range of political and environmental views. When we discuss these things (politics, public policy, vegetarianism, environmental issues, etc. etc.) we get into arguments. Plus it is off-topic, which we don't encourage on this forum. I guess this proves that all ex-premies are NOT the same. I do appreciate (and agree) with your viewpoint regarding DuPont, etc., but I think it's important to stick to the main topic here, which is Maharaji and his organization. That's what we all have in common here - premie or ex-premie. Take care, Katie P.S. At the risk of being conciliatory, I wanted to tell you that I did understand about teaching your kids to say 'I' statements ('I hate it', rather than 'it is horrible'. I am working on that one myself. I also get how your wife found this site (we have a link to enjoyinglife.org, so it would probably show up on certain search engines.) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 19:39:14 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Mike Subject: Very well said , Mike Message: Glad to have your voice back on the forum. You're coming in loud & clear to this sister Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 18:34:12 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: SHP Subject: Dialog here with a premie-live Message: SHP wrote ' (By the way, I am not your average person who accepted Jesus - personally, I believe that he got back to his Essene community alive after the crucifixion and most likely raised a family and lived a long and happy life. The books have really been messed with to keep whole populations in servitude - I tell you this so that you can guage who you are reading here is is not caught in anybody's box of concepts. I have come to my own conclusions based on my own experiences and intuitions.)' Sheesh, that MUST have been an esoteric order! Are you sure they didn't ask you to leave? What order were you in? Have you kept up with any of the latest scholarship on the historical Jesus? That 'Jesus as Essene' stuff is no longer accepted by anyone. Oops, I must be caught in someone's box of concepts; darn seminary education!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 18:41:03 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: SHP Subject: Dialog here with a premie-live Message: Oh yeah, SHP, I ought to tell you that Mickey is an Episcopal priest who is getting an M.S. in early church history. (Nice guy, though). Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 18:53:25 (EST)
From: SHP Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Dialog here with a premie-live Message: Hey Rev. Father Mickey: This is Brother SHP. Never reached the priesthood...bought into the 'each person their own priest' idea....priest=guide in Greek. I have information too, and don't want to get into 'my information can beat up your information' thing, OK? I did not have the idea about Jesus surviving the cross until long after I left the order. Funny thing about discoveries. Like on the news, one week coffee is good for you and the next week it's bad. (See 'Sleeper' the movie by Woody Allen if you haven't.) The Dead sea Scrolls work for me, as do the Lamsa Bibles, and Gospel Light also by George Lamsa, plus some things I learned elsewhere. George Lamsa speaks, reads and writes Aramaic, which as you know, is the language Jesus spoke. So he bypassed the Latin and Greek and came up with a clean version. Check him out. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 19:43:40 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: SHP Subject: Dialog here with a premie-live Message: Brother SHP, As far as I know, none of the earliest manuscripts we have were written in Aramaic; they are in Hebrew and Greek. I haven't read any of Lamsa's stuff but will check it out. I must tell you, though, I don't spend any time here trying to convert anyone, but I find the idea that 'Jesus taught this Knowledge' to be offensive and inaccurate. You may enjoy the techniques and all, but it is silly to make that claim. As far as Jesus surviving the crucifixion, I have trouble buying into that Schonfield stuff. I'm sure you know that the tomb of Jesus can be found in India and Japan. I don't think he was an Essene, and I doubt that he really had any connections with the community at Qumran. Oh, I believe that coffee is good for you, as is keeping up in the latest scholarship. Hey, I sound like some kinda pharisee! But I want you to know that I don't subscribe to the idea that there are inferior orders, but priest is the order to which I have been ordained and I am not ashamed. Now, what was the name of the monastic order to which you belonged? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 20:54:07 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btitnernet.com To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: I have a question, Father Message: All this talk about whether Jesus died on the cross or not; I have learned a few things myself about crucifixion by the Romans and I would like to ask you, Mickey, if you agree with my findings. Firstly, crucifiction doesn't appear to have been carried out in the way depicted by Medieval artists. I believe that the hands were not pierced by nails but that a nail was put through each wrist and attatched to a crossbar from which the crucified person would hang - from his nailed wrists. Nails driven through the hands would not support the weight and would tear. The legs were then bent at the knees and one nail was driven through both overlapping feet and fixing them to the upright post (or wall) or two nails were used, one through each foot. The legs were not straight but bent at the knee so that the feet were just below the crotch area. I'd just like to point out that since the Romans used to regularly crucify Jews by nailing them to City walls (as an example) the method of crucifixion which I've outlined would be the only one which would work. Death from crucifixion came from suffocation. The weight hanging from the upward, outstretched arms would eventually stop the breathing mechanism from working. The crucified person would be able to breathe in but find it increasingly difficult to breathe out due to their hanging weight impeding their chest and diaphram. In order to prolong their life, some crucified people would support some of their weight with their nailed (to the post) feet and while this must have been agony, the reflex action to prolong life would have taken over. Some people were able to prolong their lives for quite a long time by pushing their weight up from their nailed feet in order to help take the strain off their chests and keep breathing. For this reason, the Romans would check to see if anyone was still alive from doing this and if they were, they would break the crucified peron's legs to prevent them from supporting their weight on their feet. Death followed quickly afterwards. According to the Bible, the Roman soldiers went to break the legs of Jesus to make sure he was dead before the Sabbath and they found that he was already dead. Finally Mickey, there is something else which I find very interesting which you may like to comment on. It is said that when Jesus was crucified, the Romans put a sighn above his head which translated means, 'King of the Jews'. I see this as the ultimate piss take or mockery of Jesus by the Roman soldiers. Rather than see it as a romantic gesture on the part of some compassionate soldiers, I think they were kicking a man when he's down and ridiculing Jesus right to the end. The fact that there is no actual documentation of Jesus ever claiming to be the King of the Jews, meaning that he never made such a claim, makes it all the more ironic. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 16:29:16 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: Sir David Subject: I have a question, Father Message: Your understanding of crucifixion is correct; the death occurs from suffication and it was a long, agonizing death. According to the stories in the gospels, Jesus died quickly. As far as the 'I.N.R.I.' sign on the cross, I agree with you; it was a way of mocking the claim of Jesus' followers. Crucifixion was a Roman method of execution and a pretty cruel method at that. The historic anti-semitism was supposedly based on the idea that Jesus was killed by the Jews, but it seems to me that if the Jews had killed him, he would have been stoned to death and I'd be wearing a rock around my neck! Yes, David, I agree with your understandings of the crucifixion. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 02:17:16 (EST)
From: op Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: I have a question, Father Message: On the subject of INRI - I think this is a pretty well known interpretation. Even when I was surrounded with avid (or rabid?) Catholics in the 1950s, we were taught that the ROMANS had placed the sign over Jesus' head as mockery. Add to that a crown of thorns - further mockery. The question that came up when I studied religious history during the 70s was one of nails. Then we were told that those who were crucified were simply tied to their crosses. So why nails for Jesus? Do you know anything about this? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 12:22:11 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: op Subject: I have a question, Father Message: Hi op, According to Harper's Bible Dictionary, criminals' arms were either tied to the cross or nailed on. I think that since Jesus' crime was that of treason against the state, he was probably nailed to the cross to continue the torture started with the floggings and the crown of thorns. Crucifixion was a pretty nasty business. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 19:53:07 (EST)
From: Sam C. Email: None To: SHP Subject: A wart, or not a wart... Message: SHP: Re: I happen to believe that Maharaji, alleged warts and all, carries with him the same Knowledge and has the mission of bringing it to human beings on a global scale. I have to admit that I don't really understand this. If he has the warts (as opposed to 'alleged warts') then exactly how did he secure his mission to reveal 'perfection.' What legitimates him? Since I know a lot of folks who are, without much controversy, better people than Maharaji would they not be a better choice for such an office? Forgive me, but I don't see the logic in what you're saying. So, I should think that what you have to be saying is that Maharaji is wartless after all. Is that not so? Or do you really mean that it's perfectly alright to follow someone as a spiritual leader no matter what their personal failings... i.e. without taking cognizance of those failings? -Sam Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 19:59:05 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Sam C. Subject: A habit, a bad habit Message: Hey Sam C., Inserting an opinion here--I think premies develop a 'relationship' w/GM that makes them blind to his warts...and blind to the ethical disconnect... Goldie admitted in a post to me that he knows deep down that he doesn't need GM anymore but that it's hard to turn love off after all these years, now that it's become a habit. That's what GM is--a habit! And being devoted to him is a habit state Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 20:09:48 (EST)
From: Sam C. Email: None To: Helen Subject: A habit, a bad habit Message: Helen: No argument about the blindness. Just trying to see if I can force those eyes open a smidgeon. -Sam Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 19:53:07 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: SHP Subject: Dialog here with a premie-live Message: Hi, SHP. Hope you don't mind my jumping in here. I read your post with great interest. You sound like a very nice person. I liked your point about Jesus being misunderstood in his own time and blowing people's concepts (eating on the Sabbath, hanging out with whores, etc.) Personally, I think that there are some huge differences between Maharaji and Jesus. I like what Jesus had to say about doing for others, loving others, etc. I have not heard Maharaji say much in this vein. Have you? Do you believe that Jesus taught his devotees how to do Hindu meditation? I didn't live back then, but I don't believe this is the truth. Of course this is my opinion. How big was Jesus on 'gratitude' from his followers? Anyway, thanks for the post and I look forward to discussing with you, if you care to respond. VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 21:52:53 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: SHP Subject: Dialog here with a premie-live Message: SHP, I, too, think you're presenting yourself quite civilly here. You deserve credit for that. Thanks very much. I must say, though, I'm not sure what to say to you. I wonder, are you really so naive as to believe all the 'spiritual' stories that come your way? It appears that you do. You cite examples of things -- like supposed stories about Jesus -- that, in my mind, just cry out for careful scrutiny. Yet you lean the other direction. You just lap this stuff up without question. You ask to be judged on your own character and not merely lumped together in this loose, unfair collective called 'premies'. Okay, I'm judging you individually. And what I find is someone who appears to be ignorant of science and wilfully abandoned to the dog-eared mystical refuse of myriad cultures. Forget about prophecies and such for a moment. Let's change the subject. What do you know about evolution? How about natural selection? What do you think about these things? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 19:26:22 (EST)
From: srb----fatrat Email: None To: Jim Subject: frustrating and tedious!!! Message: tom hagen, who has somehow risen to the top of the visions brick a brack empire, finds going on the web 'frustrating and tedious'! he is backing up fatrat's anti web comments. If this knowledge and having the lord as your employer is not enough to know how to spend your moments in a state of bliss instead of being frustrated and lost in tedium. And blame it on what you are doing instead of going within and finding a way to 'enjoylife' while you wander the web. The guy is a total wimp. I am going to e-mail him. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 19:38:11 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Jim Subject: Visions Ad Message: Jim, bringing this up since you quoted the 'Vision Thing' again: Here is a more truthful rendition of the Visions mailing: As the holiday season is approaching, we are very happy to present this special, very lucrative/immensely profitable, overpriced, grossly material, collection of videotapes, audiocassettes, 'music', publications and 'gift items.' We know some of you have been reading that horrible 'ex-premie.org' website, (we sure have) filled with comments from bitter, vindictive, confused ex-premies spreading lies about Maharaji and knowledge. So, to distract attention from that, we got some premies in England to start a new website, that is so thoroughly controlled and censored, that only 'positive' things about Maharaji and knowledge will appear there. It is entitled a website 'for those who appreciate the teachings of Maharaji.' [Now, before you stop laughing, realize that we MUST say Maharaji actually HAS teachings that make any sense, aren't completely contradictory, and haven't changed drastically over the years. Otherwise, what is the point of a 'master?' Who would you be grateful to?] But we know what you REALLY appreciate is the unthinking, unanalyzed, blind acceptance of whatever drivel Maharaji expells, as well as the parrotting of same by obliging premies that goes on there. And boy, we are SO excited about this website, that just appeared out of nowhere, even though we were in on it from the beginning, that 'we' just spontaneously decided, because we got so excited, to offer a t-shirt with an artistic rendition from the homepage of the site. It is our special gift to you. It's the least we can do, considering the huge profits we make on videos that cost $20 for as little as 4 minutes. We hope you enjoy 'discovering' the site as much as we have, and don't pay any attention to those accusations that censorship goes on there. Lies, all lies being spread by our enemies! And someday, somehow, perhaps within our lifetimes,the website operators will figure out a way to give the appearance that free and open 'conversations' can go on there, while at the same time, censoring the hell out of all comments, and preventing anyone with even the teensiest criticism of the master from participating. Those of us on the payroll of Visions International, mainly the master and his two daughters, wish you all the best during the holday season.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 07:35:05 (EST)
From: srb Email: None To: JW Subject: Email that to visions!-nt Message: brilliant work again JW Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 13:07:00 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: srb Subject: Email that to visions!-nt Message: Do you have an e-mail address for Visions? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 19:28:08 (EST)
From: srb Email: None To: JW Subject: fax that to visions! Message: I'm looking, in the meantime, here is the fax. fax8054964777 fax 8054953165 Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 19:48:26 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Jim Subject: Maximizing the expose's effect Message: One thing that seems clear is that the ELKies are planning to simply carry on as if nothing's happened. What did you expect, Jim? What else can they do without giving even more publicity to their problems? I think one effect of all this is that premies, more than ever beofre, will be trained to ignore dissent and us in particular. For some premies, yes. But those are the premies that are really scared of any discouraging word and wouldn't be associating with us much anyway. I think that for the many premies who read this website and forum regularly, and there are many I think, the effect will be more cognitive dissonance, and some more open questioning. It's another 'drip' in the 'drip, drip, drip' or beginning to think for oneself again. Don't worry, Jim, there will be plenty of dialogue. Maybe a lot of it will be one way for awhile. I strongly agree that the whole expose, including Nigels' commentaries afterwards, and that Visions Ad should be enshrined on this website if at all possible, along with a LINK to the enjoyinglife website. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 04:00:10 (EST)
From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Jim Subject: NOT 'business as usual' Message: In the two weeks prior to Tuesday 17th, the number of (genuine) 'Lives with Knowledge' published = 13. Since Tuesday only one has appeared - from India, which suggests maybe Jonathan or someone passed it on. This could mean they have a pile in their in-tray - not from us - which need censoring, but they don't know how to go about it. It may alternatively mean they suspect them of being fakes. But then, if they didn't need censoring, they would be of no use to us so they might as well publish. What do you reckon? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 13:02:20 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Nigel Subject: NOT 'business as usual' Message: Maybe, Nigel. But I don't that many premies even WANT to publish those Lives stories. Partly because they want to give their names for the whole world to see and the vast majority of premies these days are 'closet premies.' Also, I still think a lot of premies are embarrassed by the fake syrupy sweetness of the site and don't want to be associated with it. Face it, a significant percentage of those stories, especially the 17 you mention, were coming from US, especially from YOU, oh prolific one! I agree, though, they HAVE to take a step back and re-evaluate what to do. It's kind of funny to think about. Maybe they are spending time trying to weed out the other entries from ex-premies that you didn't tell them about. But how? I wonder if EV might be supplying them with lists of attendees at cult programs as a possible place to start. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 16:38:03 (EST)
From: Nigel Email: None To: JW Subject: NOT 'business as usual' Message: You're probably right, Joe. But the thirteen I mentioned didn't include ours, so they are perfectly capable of processing a lot more - if, of course, they are receiving them at the same rate. Time will tell. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 13:04:26 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Nigel Subject: NOT 'business as usual' Message: Nigel, I think the ELKies are going to simply implement some form of identity check system. Beyond that I really have no idea what's going on. The ELKies are shameless apparently. However, I did email them the following just now: 'We're going to make a permanent page entitled something like 'Enjoyinglife Exposed!'. It'll feature the heavily censored and changed 'life stories' you guys already know about. We'll try to ensure that it's readily findable by all the search engines. The idea, of course, is that no one will miss the fact that you guys function at, shall we say, a 'certain' level of honesty. I haven't talked with the others about this so I can't make any promises but I was thinking it might be neat and perhaps exceedingly fair if we gave you a chance to explain yourselves there. So far you've just ignored us, haven't you? You've ignored my email, you've never responded on the ex forum and you've said nothing here about this scandal. Indeed, you've acted as if it never took place. Now, however, I'm offering you a chance at some damage control. If you'd like to submit a defence for your actions, I'm saying we'll post it -- uncensored -- along with the evidence. Interested? By the way, I should warn you, if you ever begin posting email addresses here so that your happy brothers and sisters can actually communicate with each other, we will send each one of them a notice explaining how your editorial policy works in practice. I'm sure you'll then get at least some inquiries from some of these premies asking how you justify altering peoples' 'lives' and 'expressions' as cavalierly as you do. Who knows? Perhaps you've already gotten some such emails. In that case, then, you could simply refer them to your one-time boiler-plate justification and be done with it. Just a suggestion. Anyway, love the show. Especially the fact that you guys are now in bad with Visions and all that. This couldn't have happened at a better time, don't you think? Tell me, have you heard from Maharaji yet? Sincerely, in His Help, Jim' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 14:05:22 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Jim Subject: The 'exposing ELK' page Message: Hi Jim - Boy, you're really rubbing their noses in it... Regarding the 'exposing ELK' page: I haven't talked to Shri Brian about this yet, but we are really backed up on the Ex-Premie.Org web site. Also, I am not sure if the 'exposing ELK' material is appropriate for the site itself (sort of like the Durga Ji letter), and it doesn't fit the theme of Jean-Michel's site. (I don't want to argue about this because the final decision is obviously Brian's, not mine.) However, given the amount of other material we are trying to get on-line now, I suggest that you or Nigel or someone make a web page specifically for the 'exposing ELK' material, and we will link to it (we already have a link to ELK itself). Jean-Michel and Sir David have already done this, as you know. I know you can get free web pages at geocities.com, and I think they're also available elsewhere (delphi.com?). P.S. Jim, you really do need a home page, anyway. If you'd been an Amazon.com partner, you could have made a few bucks off of all the copies of 'Blind Watchmaker' that you've sold on here, not to mention other books you've recommended. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 17:35:28 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Katie Subject: The 'exposing ELK' page Message: Also, I am not sure if the 'exposing ELK' material is appropriate for the site itself Amazing. By the way, now that you mention Durga Ji's letter, there's no way someone can access it without digging deep through the archives, is there? I think that's a real pity. After all, where else can the faithful read 'mum' calling people who don't practise 'assholes'? If there's some reason why THAT's not appropriate material for the ex-premie site (Galactic Headquarters for Maharaji's 'ENEMIES') it's beyond me. However, given the amount of other material we are trying to get on-line now, I suggest that you or Nigel or someone make a web page specifically for the 'exposing ELK' material, and we will link to it (we already have a link to ELK itself). Jean-Michel and Sir David have already done this, as you know. I know you can get free web pages at geocities.com, and I think they're also available elsewhere (delphi.com?). Katie, Just curious, what great amount of material are you trying to get on line? I'm not sure why you're so insistent on me having my own web page. I tell you, I don't want one. Not now, anyway. I don't have a dog to show off and I'm not actually an agent for Richard Dawkins. While we're on the topic of links and such, I thought you were going to link JM's pages individually, by name, on the site plan here. Wasn't that the idea? So that people could go to the index and then go directly to Maharaji's quotes, say, or one of the various other pages he's put up. Right now, all of his stuff has exactly the same kind of exposure here as does MMT, Keith's protective custody unit. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 18:09:46 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Jim Subject: The 'exposing ELK' page Message: Jim, I was just suggesting (not 'insistent') that you have your own web page. So many people have bought copies of 'Blind Watchmaker' that we make jokes about you getting a cut of the profits. Re: Jean-Michel's page links - you can talk to J-M about it, but that's the way he, Brian, and I decided to do it. Also, it DOES have an entire page devoted to it on the site, BTW, not just one link. People can click on any section of J-M's page that they are interested in and go to it. We will (I think) also have a link to his page on the revised history page, which is in the works. Also, we are revising the whole nuts and bolts section, plus holding down jobs, and trying to have some kind of a family and social life. Brian may feel differently about the 'Exposing ELK' material - I was just stating my opinion. I don't run the site - he does. P.S. Re: Durga's letter - this was talked about endlessly, and you know why we didn't put it on the web site as a page. We offered to put it on as a 'Journeys' entry, with appropriate introduction by the woman who received it, and that offer is still open. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 18:21:14 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: Correction & Suggestions Message: Katie, I see that there is an index to JM's pages here. My apologies. However, and here we get into the old suggestion box stuff, I'm afraid, I think it shouldn't be tucked away under that one link. Why not include his index as part of the site index itself? Also: 1) The Journey's entries should be dated or at least searchable in reverse order. 2) The link to the newsgroup should be either cancelled or at least clarified so that no one bothers going there. 3) The links section should be expanded and categorized to assist people following up on whatever interests we all feel have supplanted, assisted us with or simply explained the cult experience for us. In other words, there should be a bunch of atheistic and scientific links for those so inclined. I guess ther'd have to be whatever new age links as well, if someone thought they found post-Maharaji understanding there. I don't know, but surely there's room for a lot more than what we've currently got. 4) Pictures? Pictures of ex's, pictures of us in ourt old cult days, clips of Maharaji dancing like a beached whale. Just a thought. 5) And yes, I have to say it. I think it's time to spruce up the graphics. Why not? We need our own footprint or something... just kidding. But surely this place can be spruced up a bit, don't you think? I've noticed that several people, over time, who claim to have the relevant skills, have offered to help. Why not let them? I don't for a moment want to irritate you or Brian but I think that this forum can and should be seen as a natural on-going suggestion box. The alternative, just sending Brian email, offers no way of testing the support for an idea, let alone discussing a proposal for the site with all concerned. What do you think? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 18:45:10 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Jim Subject: Correction & Suggestions Message: Jim - Here's the way it goes: Brian could use another assistant, but if there is a person who is skilled at web page design out there, I have yet to find them. A lot of people HAVE volunteered to work on the site, and that's great, but they don't have the necessary skills (including me, although I am learning). We could really use someone with web page design skills on the level of Mili's (but obviously he's not going to want to do it.) If anyone does have those skills, wants to volunteer, and I have just misunderstood, then please speak up! I will suggest the first two items to Brian plus putting J-M's site on the index. Regarding pictures - we are putting a lot of pictures on the history page - however, we are hampered by a lack of scanned pictures. If anyone has pictures out there that they want to scan and send to the site, then that's great. A few people have done this and we appreciate it very much. Neither of us has a scanner, and we've had to beg, borrow, and steal to scan most of the pictures we do have. I am not sure about adding more links to non-cult-related items. It could get pretty intense - you know that everyone on here has their own set of favorite links, plus their own philosophy of life, and ideas. If we link to Dawkins, then we have to link to someone's favorite UFO site (I'm exaggerating but that is a problem). We would have to look at each site and make judgements on the relevancy of the material - you know. Personally, I'd like to keep the links down to cult and Maharaji related material that we know is relevant. Regarding the graphics - you and D@vid seem to be the two people who are bothered by this. Most of the other people don't seem to care. IMHO this is a pretty low-priority item that would take a lot of work and time to change. If anyone else feels differently, then please speak up. I'm not sure how Brian feels, but the irritating part of people making suggestions on the forum is that WE have to do the work. If something is wrong (like a broken link or something), then obviously we appreciate being told. But most of the time, people just say 'Why don't you guys do this?' when it's something that's really time-consuming and/or difficult. One of the reasons I suggested that you make your own web page is so you could see how much time it can take to do these things (and also so you could publish things that we might not have the time or inclination to put on the site). Sincerely, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 21:39:24 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Katie Subject: Correction & Suggestions Message: Katie, First and foremost, I'm completely hip to your frustration at people suggesting things without offering the womanhours, especially SKILLED ones, to do the work. Believe me, believe me, believe me. But, Katie, I'm confused. Hasn't anyone fit the bill in terms of skill and interest? I know Anon and Bian got off to a shaky start. In fact, I agreed with Brian then that Anon was just nitpicking. He would have bugged me too, had I been in Brian's shoes. But I also recall Anon's well-expressed (as usual) mea culpa. Maybe now he's finally broken enough to be harnessed, saddled and put to work. You've seen his site. The guy knows what he's doing. Then there's AOAJ. I'm not talking about letting this guys take over anything. I'm talking about enlisting their humble assitance in the service of the antichrist. I only know that he mentioned he'd offered but, alas, no takers. Or Nigel perhaps? Isn't he up to speed on this stuff? Well, I guess we'll see if anyone else steps up. I hate the idea of you two being over-worked at all here. That sucks and it's not my intention in the least to burden you further. Honestly. The scanning thing shouldn't be so hard now. More and more people have these units. Even a digital camera will suffice. All it takes, I would think, is a simple request here on the forum and someone's bound to say they've got one and would happily scan a bunch of pictures and email them to you and Brian. Yes, I'd do it happily and WILL do it if and when I get a unit. I just don't have one yet and can't decide what to get. Scanner? Digital camera? Camcorder? I'm probably going to get something. Meanwhile, however, someone here must already be set up. As for the graphics, no, it's not a high priority. The page is really nice, it's really presentable and all that. Again, without knowing exactly how it's done, I'll take your word for it that you and Brian have indeed put a lot of work into developing and maintaining this site. But this just comes back to the question of able assistance. I think being an ex-premie is a very sharp thing, in a sort of victimized post-modern kind of way. I'm not ashamed to say that I think we should look as smart as we can. To some extent, anyway, the medium is the message. (Wouldn't it be funny if we ran a background hamster's footprint on some of the pages? Or maybe cloven-hoof? Snakeskin perhaps? Just a thought.) If you guys are really open to it I DO hope someone offers some mock-up improvements for your consideration. With any luck, some would be nifty enough for accpetance and the temporary elf could do the implementation him or her self. Nothing to hold one's breath for but something nonetheless. As for the links, as one of the least tolerant people here I do get your point. Do you think I want to see any links to Mark's favorite channeler? No, of course not. But, I'd be happy to pay that price if, in exchange, some of my favorites had a foothold. Yes, I'm only thinking about relevant ones. To me, all this evolution stuff IS relevant because it demystifies crazy notions about the breath and consciousness and what have you. Yes, I think a richer set of links would be used and useful. Theyt just have to be clearly categorized, that's all. Okay, that was process. What about substance? Katie, this is a war for peoples' hearts and minds. We're dealing with a despicable person in the form of a hamster. Unconscionable at least. Remember how when all this started, back in Scott Perry's day, back in the alt-support.ex-cult days, we actually thought we could maybe get some sort of reasoned response from Maharaji. Now we've gotten a response and it's clear as day. We're his enemies and he plans to do nothing but ignore us no matter what personality or level of pain, confusion or history we bring to this site. The premies would as soon shut us down as ever talk to us again. Ask op if she had her preference, would it be to lurk here and maintain some very superficial relations with apostate premies or to just see us silenced and forgotten. They're all the same in that respect. If they're into Maharaji, they're agin' us. So why not play our cards fully? I can't believe that you'd want to distance this site in the slightest from the ELK expose. This IS the biggest splash we've had here for a while now. Before that what was it? Some of JM's gathering archive? Maharaji's home floor plans? How about when we first heard from Malibu Mole? And no, let's not forget Marolyn's letter. And, talking of Marolyn, I seem to recall something about one Monica Lewis. All of these reports are, in some sense, distasteful! If someone ever comes forward with more dirt on Maharaji, that will be too. This is one big, public relations contest and I think we should play it as such. All of this is in response, by the way, to your comment that, with my own page, I could publish material you guys might not be inclined to put up. Really, I can't imagine what should fit that description. I'm an ex-premie and this is the ex-premie site. We've got one very narrow field of focus, that being the credibility of our former cult leader and the effect he's had on us and others. I do hope someone's willing and able to help you more substantially with the page. It's not me. I'm too busy elsewhere and too unschooled in the arts. Don't get me wrong, though. If, for some unforseeable and sad reason, you guys quit tomorrow and no one else would step up, I'd find a way to do it. But that would suck. I really like both of you and would hate for anything like that to happen. And I also hate the idea of either one of you being overworked. But I also hate the idea of the page holding back in the slightest. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 21:54:52 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Jim Subject: Correction & Suggestions Message: Hi Jim - Incomplete answer here - So far Jean-Michel is the only one who has actually come forward, made pages, and submitted them to Brian. I don't know if Anon's ever offered to work on the page (in the past year, that is). Although he certainly has the skills, he probably doesn't have the time. My understanding of AoAJi's offer was that he wanted to work on the forum or with programming, which is the stuff that Brian prefers to handle himself. If there's anyone out there, I hope they'll read this and speak up. As far as scanning goes, you can scan pictures at Kinko's (do they have those in Canada? It's a copy shop.) if you have the time and money. I think Brian has an ad up for pictures in the reader's ad section of the site. Again, maybe someone will read your post and speak up if they have a scanner. I appreciate your comments, and it does seem like you understand some of the difficulties involved in keeping the site up to date. Let's hope we can find some more people to help. Gotta go, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 06:31:55 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Katie Subject: What I'm offering to help! Message: Hi Jim, Katie, Brian, and all Remember the name of my site? I offer to host other 'papers' on my site, like The truth about enjoying life the truth about m's wealth how m really cares for his devotees (including that famous Marolyn's letter) etc As I don't intend to write the articles myself (my english is not good enough, and I'm already involved in adding new materials), I suggest whoever wants to do it to do so. Like the articles about Radhasoami/Sant Mat that some other exes put together and wrote. What I offer is to edit the pages when the articles will be ready, and to host them on my site. Unless someone else wants to do that. I understand that Brian is already very busy with ex-premie.org as it is now, that he only has a limited time, and that he can't be involved in maintaining and updating too much stuff. I still have some spare time. Regarding the links between ex-premie.org and various web-sites, like mine, it also requires a lot of work and editing, and updating every page of one site when there is new related stuff on another site also takes a lot. That's why I have one page (the site map) on ex-premie.org. When I have new stuff on my site, it only requires to change 1 page on ex-premie.org What do you think about all this? Anybody volunteers? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 17:24:31 (EST)
From: nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Jean-Michel Subject: What I'm offering to help! Message: I am building some web-pages for the enjoying life expose and 'submission guidelines', though I won't be hosting them. I am discussing this with Katie and Brian by email at the moment. Your offer to host some pages might be very useful. I'll make sure Katie sees this if she hasn't already. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 18:09:44 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: nigel Subject: What I'm offering to help! Message: Yes, I did see J-M's very generous offer. I can't think of anything at the moment that I myself particularly want on-line, but Jim may be able to. In the meantime, I'll remember what you said, J-M! Thanks much, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 19:36:18 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Katie Subject: Marolyn's Letter Message: Did Durga Ji write a letter to the forum? Is it in the archives somewhere? I'm dying to see it. Let me guess--she was trying to convey how hurt she is that we are slamming GM. (I'm just guessing, I haven't a clue) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 20:55:54 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Helen Subject: Marolyn's Letter Message: Hi Helen - It was actually a copy of a letter she had written to another premie (now ex) woman regarding some complaints the recipient had about sexual abuse and some remarks M had made. I used to have a copy of it but it is gone. Jim might still have it around. After much discussion, we decided not to put it on the site because it was like reading someone else's mail, really. Plus Durga Ji wrote it when she was recovering from brain surgery, and I (we) felt sorry for her - she sounded like she'd had a hard time. But, yeah, she did say that she thought ex-premies were assholes. Jim did post it on the forum but I can't remember when. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 22:44:20 (EST)
From: Can someone post Email: None To: Katie Subject: Marolyn's Letter 4 Helen? Message: no additional text Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 12:03:37 (EST)
From: El Nino Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Possibly God may exist Message: Last night, I went to the public library and forgot on the counter an envelope I had in my hands when I came in. A few minutes later, I realized I had lost it. I looked everywhere. I even prayed. I Always do when I buy a lottery ticket, am desperate and am about to have an orgasm. Last place I looked was the library. Now, I know this is a weak proof, but if what I wish for sometimes happen, wouldn't it be okay to wish the perfect hamster goes out of his harmful business? I don't cost nothing, unless I wish for it at church, that's for sure. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 12:23:03 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: El Nino Subject: What're you smokin, man? (nt) Message: nt Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 12:29:01 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: El Nino Subject: Maybe you have... Message: been hanging out at the student disco reading too many comical books! (; Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 12:59:27 (EST)
From: El Nino Email: None To: El Nino Subject: Possibly God may exist Message: I know my rational wouln't impress a theologian but that'd stand-up at satsang, wouldn't it? On the other hand (right is right and left is...? Wrong. You're right.) what other proof do I have god exist? Creation? Who created god? I sometimes gets superstitious. Last night I had a bout. I know americans have a hard time admitting the idea of god may be questionnable. To me, spirituality is country music. I'm serious here. You want to know why? This is why: Spirituality is something intimate that take me in contact with who I really am, something no one else is nor understand the way I do. Hank Williams does it all for me, therefore it is spirituality. The perfect master does exactly the contrary. He keeps his followers as remote as possible from their own private ideology. He is spiritually dangerous. That, to me is a crime worse than stealing milk money. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 19:58:15 (EST)
From: Sir Egg Noodle Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: El Nino Subject: Possibly God may exist Message: I like it, El Nino! Everybody praises God when they have an orgasm. Why even as I write after midnight now, in London, there are people crying out, 'Oh God, I'm coming!' as they reach their orgasms. I thought you meant Hank Marvin of the Shadows at first. I like all music if it's good. Have you seen the new film with Patrick Stewart (Jean-Luke Picard) in where he's a humble turnip farmer in Lincolnshire, England and where he gets into line dancing? All good stuff. Live music is the best, I think, where you can see the faces of the musicians and singers. One of the best live bands I saw quite by accident in Bournemouth, England. They were playing the Pan pipes in the town centre and they were something else man! I was taken somewhere there. And God was there too, of course. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 13:01:46 (EST)
From: John Email: None To: El Nino Subject: Possibly God may exist Message: Just curious, what do you pray for when you are about to have an orgasm? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 13:20:29 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: El Nino Subject: Possibly God may exist Message: Isn't this the same falacy that we fell into as premies? Isn't the logical falacy called, something like post hoc ergo propter hoc? Although I had to take 3 years of latin in Catholic High School, I'm not completely sure about the translation, but I think it's: 'after the event, therefore because of the event.' So, I receive knowledge and I feel good, and I listen to M and I feel good. Therefore, the good experiences I am having are DUE to knowledge and M. Of course, for premies, there is more. ONLY good experiences are due to M and knowledge. All the crap that happens in my life is due to ME, my mind, the world, or anything else BESIDES M and knowledge. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 11:08:07 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: My offer to ELK Message: I sentr them this: 'Hey guys, Why won't you talk with us? I'll tell you what. If you reply to me and explain how you justify tampering with these life stories as you do, I'll let you in on at least one more fake you haven't found yet. That's fair, isn't it? Tell me how you feel about your deception and I'll help you clean up mine. Deal? Remember how you first came to Maharaji for a little 'truth'? Did you ever think you'd end up playing this sordid game? Anyway, there's my offer.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 12:22:19 (EST)
From: El Nino Email: None To: Jim Subject: My useless offer to ELK Message: There are a few things you do not seem to understand Jimmy boy. One of them is there's no point trying to argue with these fanatics. Another one is that to them, we are fanatics. Some of them graying toothless teenagers have been washing their brains with this rethoric for up to 27 years now. (Colin, Joan, Annie just to name a few you know). Their wheel will keep turning long after the hamster is dead. I Think you are wasting your time but then, time is cheap and yours to waste. I started to post some web adresses in news groups (ELK and this one. I'll add the GMJ 'official' website.) to bring attention to the hidden phenomena. There are more than 20,000 news groups. Why don't you give me a hand. I agree with Boris information is the strongest card. If he'd be sincere and divine (which some of us strongly doubt) no harm would be done to his reputation. If he ain't, he'll have to find a new wheel before long. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 22:17:09 (EST)
From: An Enemy Email: None To: El Nino Subject: My useless offer to ELK Message: Thanks El Nino. You're dead right in what you say. Almost half a lifetime spent following the Perfect Monster, the Fraud of the Universe and fitting into it would make people blind to the reality of the situation. They think we're out of it. We think they're out to lunch. But we have a job to do. Let's get to it! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 09:35:26 (EST)
From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Everyone Subject: el.org Submission Guidelines Message: The Elkies' Submission Guidelines Having studied carefully the full range of censored material from the 'Lives with Knowledge' submissions we posted down below (and from others we still have on file), we are now in a position to draw some definite conclusions about the censorship policy at Enjoyinglife.org. Unless they now start publishing stuff that might prove otherwise, here are the unofficial submission guidelines for would-be contributors: (And in the event of forthcoming job vacancies at 'El.com', any aspiring editor would do well to brush up on these before the interview.) BUT NOT refer to the practice of 'knowledge' as a spiritual path. OR remind people that Guru Maharaj ji once claimed to be the Lord incarnate. BUT NOT of 'devotion' BUT NOT 'service' YOU MAY NOT hint at the hidden costs and sacrifices that participation has involved in your own case (unless you have no regrets) OR YOU MIGHT NOT be able to talk about 'surrendering the reins of your life' ESPECIALLY the fact that he was once said to inhabit a 'perfect form' UNLESS you call it 'time with the master' YOU MUST NOT suggest that any of them are equally valid/invalid as Guru Maharaj ji's 'knowledge', or that other spiritual leaders can offer the same experience (or lack thereof) YOU MAY NOT say 'Millenium '73' AND YOU MAY even blame the premies for their misguided enthusiasm BUT ON NO ACCOUNT can you even hint that the man in charge might have had anything to do with it BUT NEITHER SHALT THOU hint that Guru Maharaj ji is less than perfect (ie., by criticising, however mildy) BUT NOT the devotional songs AND ESPECIALLY NOT Guru Maharaj ji's semi-naked waddle-dancing (Finally, few more that we haven't actually tested, but we can safely assume are banned, since they are never mentioned in the, er, 'real' premie's lives.) It would, of course, be easy enough for El.org to prove us wrong in these assumptions - or for others, premie or ex, to put them to the test. Bruce: if your submission survived uncensored, your Knowledge-lite conditioning must have become second nature to you - you star pupil. |