Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 29

From: Nov 14, 1998

To: Nov 27, 1998

Page: 3 Of: 5



Jim -:- Bruce and Golden Oldie -:- Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 15:14:53 (EST)

AE -:- More stuff on BM's web site -:- Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 15:00:45 (EST)
__Mike -:- Keep going.... -:- Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 15:12:02 (EST)
____srb -:- Keep going.... -:- Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 16:56:30 (EST)
__Jim -:- Really funny! -:- Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 15:12:12 (EST)
__Jerry -:- More stuff on BM's web site -:- Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 16:22:22 (EST)
__Jean-Michel -:- Right to the point ! -:- Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 17:05:33 (EST)
____VP -:- Carmen Miranda again-nt -:- Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 20:00:17 (EST)
____Jim -:- Please, JM -:- Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 21:07:16 (EST)
______Jean-Michel -:- Please, JM -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 03:42:45 (EST)
______Jean-Michel -:- Please, JM: more -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 05:17:28 (EST)
____AE -:- Right to the point ! -:- Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 21:14:37 (EST)

Jim -:- Maximizing the expose's effect -:- Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 13:53:21 (EST)
__VP -:- Puppet.com -:- Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 14:30:26 (EST)
__SHP -:- Dialog here with a premie-live -:- Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 16:30:34 (EST)
____srb -:- Dialog here with a premie-live -:- Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 16:53:53 (EST)
____Mike -:- Dialog here with a premie-live -:- Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 17:32:42 (EST)
______SHP -:- Dialog here with a premie-live -:- Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 18:10:10 (EST)
________Katie -:- Dialog here with a premie-live -:- Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 18:34:04 (EST)
______Helen -:- Very well said , Mike -:- Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 19:39:14 (EST)
____Mickey the Pharisee -:- Dialog here with a premie-live -:- Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 18:34:12 (EST)
______Katie -:- Dialog here with a premie-live -:- Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 18:41:03 (EST)
______SHP -:- Dialog here with a premie-live -:- Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 18:53:25 (EST)
________Mickey the Pharisee -:- Dialog here with a premie-live -:- Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 19:43:40 (EST)
__________Sir David -:- I have a question, Father -:- Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 20:54:07 (EST)
____________Mickey the Pharisee -:- I have a question, Father -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 16:29:16 (EST)
______________op -:- I have a question, Father -:- Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 02:17:16 (EST)
________________Mickey the Pharisee -:- I have a question, Father -:- Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 12:22:11 (EST)
____Sam C. -:- A wart, or not a wart... -:- Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 19:53:07 (EST)
______Helen -:- A habit, a bad habit -:- Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 19:59:05 (EST)
________Sam C. -:- A habit, a bad habit -:- Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 20:09:48 (EST)
____VP -:- Dialog here with a premie-live -:- Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 19:53:07 (EST)
____Jim -:- Dialog here with a premie-live -:- Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 21:52:53 (EST)
__srb----fatrat -:- frustrating and tedious!!! -:- Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 19:26:22 (EST)
__JW -:- Visions Ad -:- Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 19:38:11 (EST)
____srb -:- Email that to visions!-nt -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 07:35:05 (EST)
______JW -:- Email that to visions!-nt -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 13:07:00 (EST)
________srb -:- fax that to visions! -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 19:28:08 (EST)
__JW -:- Maximizing the expose's effect -:- Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 19:48:26 (EST)
__Nigel -:- NOT 'business as usual' -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 04:00:10 (EST)
____JW -:- NOT 'business as usual' -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 13:02:20 (EST)
______Nigel -:- NOT 'business as usual' -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 16:38:03 (EST)
____Jim -:- NOT 'business as usual' -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 13:04:26 (EST)
______Katie -:- The 'exposing ELK' page -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 14:05:22 (EST)
________Jim -:- The 'exposing ELK' page -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 17:35:28 (EST)
__________Katie -:- The 'exposing ELK' page -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 18:09:46 (EST)
__________Jim -:- Correction & Suggestions -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 18:21:14 (EST)
____________Katie -:- Correction & Suggestions -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 18:45:10 (EST)
______________Jim -:- Correction & Suggestions -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 21:39:24 (EST)
________________Katie -:- Correction & Suggestions -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 21:54:52 (EST)
__________________Jean-Michel -:- What I'm offering to help! -:- Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 06:31:55 (EST)
____________________nigel -:- What I'm offering to help! -:- Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 17:24:31 (EST)
______________________Katie -:- What I'm offering to help! -:- Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 18:09:44 (EST)
________________________Helen -:- Marolyn's Letter -:- Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 19:36:18 (EST)
__________________________Katie -:- Marolyn's Letter -:- Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 20:55:54 (EST)
____________________________Can someone post -:- Marolyn's Letter 4 Helen? -:- Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 22:44:20 (EST)

El Nino -:- Possibly God may exist -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 12:03:37 (EST)
__Helen -:- What're you smokin, man? (nt) -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 12:23:03 (EST)
__Helen -:- Maybe you have... -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 12:29:01 (EST)
__El Nino -:- Possibly God may exist -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 12:59:27 (EST)
____Sir Egg Noodle -:- Possibly God may exist -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 19:58:15 (EST)
__John -:- Possibly God may exist -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 13:01:46 (EST)
__JW -:- Possibly God may exist -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 13:20:29 (EST)

Jim -:- My offer to ELK -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 11:08:07 (EST)
__El Nino -:- My useless offer to ELK -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 12:22:19 (EST)
____An Enemy -:- My useless offer to ELK -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 22:17:09 (EST)

Nigel -:- el.org Submission Guidelines -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 09:35:26 (EST)
__Jim -:- site additions? - Katie, Brian -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 09:59:00 (EST)
__Helen -:- el.org Submission Guidelines -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 11:22:21 (EST)
__VP -:- Sounds like a cult to me-nt -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 13:48:39 (EST)
__Scott T. -:- Exclusion from liability -:- Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 20:03:14 (EST)

Sir D -:- The value of friendship -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 08:53:03 (EST)
__Helen -:- The value of friendship -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 11:40:41 (EST)
____Mike -:- The premie response -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 12:12:43 (EST)
______Helen -:- The premie response -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 12:17:08 (EST)
________Mike -:- Breath -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 12:58:26 (EST)
__________Helen -:- Breath -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 16:04:30 (EST)
__Selene -:- The value of friendship -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 16:44:01 (EST)
____hamzen -:- emotions/helen/selene -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 19:36:11 (EST)
______Helen -:- Women of the forum -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 20:42:54 (EST)
______Jerry -:- emotions/helen/selene -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 20:50:12 (EST)
________VP -:- horny? -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 20:55:45 (EST)
______Selene -:- emotions/helen/selene -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 22:03:11 (EST)
________Jerry -:- Rabid dog -:- Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 09:38:47 (EST)
__________Mike -:- Rabid dog.org -:- Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 16:52:27 (EST)
____________Jerry -:- Rabid dog.org -:- Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 19:57:00 (EST)
______________Robyn -:- Rabid dog.org -:- Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 23:05:27 (EST)
________________Jerry -:- I think I've created a monster -:- Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 16:14:30 (EST)
__________Selene -:- Rabid dog grrrlllll -:- Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 17:55:42 (EST)
____Helen -:- Amen, sister (nt) -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 20:33:42 (EST)

AE -:- Maharaji's new Homepage here -:- Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 22:31:37 (EST)
__TD -:- Maharaji's new Homepage here -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 06:43:44 (EST)
____Jim -:- Maharaji's new Homepage here -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 10:03:40 (EST)
__srb -:- Maharaji's new Homepage here -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 11:12:22 (EST)
__Helen -:- Maharaji's new Homepage here -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 11:52:45 (EST)
__JW -:- Maharaji's new Homepage here -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 12:25:33 (EST)
____AE -:- Maharaji's new Homepage here -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 19:39:21 (EST)
______RT -:- Maharaji's new Om page -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 21:47:30 (EST)
__D -:- Maharaji's new Homepage here -:- Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 13:13:14 (EST)

Nigel -:- Bruce's Honesty -:- Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 21:27:56 (EST)
__Robyn -:- Nigel's Honesty -:- Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 22:16:58 (EST)
__Bruce -:- Cheat and Deceit -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 03:37:56 (EST)
____Jean-Michel -:- About Cheat and Deceit! -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 03:42:59 (EST)
____Nigel -:- No exaggeration, Bruce -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 05:29:42 (EST)
____Mike -:- Cheat and Deceit -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 10:07:19 (EST)
______Jim -:- accuracy -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 10:45:50 (EST)
________El Nino -:- accuracy -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 11:50:16 (EST)
____Jim -:- Neat defeat -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 10:41:49 (EST)
____srb -:- Cheat and Deceit -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 11:19:16 (EST)
____El Nino -:- Secets and lies (Cheat and dec -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 11:27:58 (EST)
____VP -:- Deceiving their readership -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 13:40:39 (EST)
__TD -:- Nigel, you ARE brilliant! -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 05:53:17 (EST)
__Mike -:- To: NIGEL -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 09:58:04 (EST)
____Willi Kranz -:- Mike/ Robyn/Eb/Td/Helen.. -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 21:57:21 (EST)
______Katie -:- Stop, Nigel, Stop! Please... -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 23:01:41 (EST)
______Helen -:- You're killing me again -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 23:17:29 (EST)
______TD -:- You No.1 crazy funny guy Willi -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 23:42:37 (EST)
______Willi Kranz -:- email mistake -:- Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 04:46:07 (EST)
______Mike -:- Mike/ Robyn/Eb/Td/Helen.. -:- Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 10:39:42 (EST)
______Robyn -:- Mike/ Robyn/Eb/Td/Helen.. -:- Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 22:37:30 (EST)
__Al Nino -:- Bruce's Honesty -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 11:47:27 (EST)

Katie -:- Some thoughts on editing -:- Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 15:34:24 (EST)
__JW -:- Katie, This Is Satire, Right? -:- Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 17:13:03 (EST)
____Katie -:- It really isn't! -:- Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 17:20:25 (EST)
______JW -:- It really isn't! -:- Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 17:35:23 (EST)
________Katie -:- It really isn't! -:- Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 17:43:06 (EST)
__________Mike -:- It really isn't! -:- Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 18:58:40 (EST)
____________Katie -:- Gee Mike... -:- Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 19:41:05 (EST)
______________op -:- Amtext revisted -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 08:07:33 (EST)
________________Katie -:- Amtext revisited -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 13:28:21 (EST)
__________________Jim -:- Amtext revisited -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 13:40:13 (EST)
________________Nigel -:- Exactly! -:- Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 21:11:44 (EST)

Jim -:- My suggestion for ELK -:- Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 11:04:09 (EST)
__Jim -:- P.S. -:- Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 11:23:53 (EST)
____hamzen -:- P.S. -:- Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 14:37:51 (EST)
______Orlando -:- gloating -:- Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 21:23:44 (EST)
________Nigel -:- gloating -:- Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 21:38:22 (EST)
__________Orlando -:- gloating -:- Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 21:43:40 (EST)
____________Nigel -:- gloating -:- Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 21:51:17 (EST)
____________Jim -:- yep -:- Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 22:02:34 (EST)
____________Mike -:- gloating -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 10:22:38 (EST)
______________hamzen -:- gloating -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 15:27:46 (EST)
________Jerry -:- gloating -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 11:53:43 (EST)

JW -:- In Defense of (Some) Premies -:- Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 09:03:12 (EST)
__Selene -:- In Defense of (Some) Premies -:- Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 11:07:03 (EST)
____david m -:- Dreams -:- Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 11:18:13 (EST)
______Selene -:- Dreams -:- Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 11:34:28 (EST)
________Joy -:- Dreams -:- Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 12:17:46 (EST)
__________david m -:- Dreams -:- Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 19:35:49 (EST)
________Katie -:- Dreams -:- Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 12:48:37 (EST)
__________VP -:- Dreams -:- Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 15:05:52 (EST)
________Helen -:- Dreams -:- Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 20:28:56 (EST)
________Helen -:- More dreams -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 11:13:20 (EST)
____JW -:- In Defense of (Some) Premies -:- Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 13:21:24 (EST)
______Selene -:- Defense of Premies/Dreams -:- Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 14:13:21 (EST)
______Jean-Michel -:- In Defense of (Some) Premies -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 06:09:02 (EST)
________Helen -:- In Defense of (Some) Premies -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 12:06:24 (EST)
__________Jean-Michel -:- In Defense of (Some) Premies -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 12:44:40 (EST)
____________Helen -:- Good point (nt) -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 20:46:06 (EST)
__Jim -:- Good point, Joe! -:- Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 11:21:45 (EST)
____Helen -:- Iagree, great point (nt) -:- Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 11:05:58 (EST)


Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 15:14:53 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Bruce and Golden Oldie
Message:
Another worthwhile read is the conversation between Bruce and Golden Oldie over on the uncensored premie page:

http://www.paradise-web.com/plus_le/plus.mirage?who=premieforum

Can you imagine if all the premies had maintained some self-respect like Golden Oldie has?
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Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 15:00:45 (EST)
From: AE
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: More stuff on BM's web site
Message:
More new stuff on Maharaji's web site. Just read how I dressed up as God to get the full story.
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Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 15:12:02 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: AE
Subject: Keep going....
Message:
AE: This stuff is great! To think that we worshipped a guy that looks like an overweight Christmas tree (ornaments and all) is totally beyond me, now!.....he he he :-)
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Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 16:56:30 (EST)
From: srb
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Keep going....
Message:
boy, this is really a hoot.
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Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 15:12:12 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: AE
Subject: Really funny!
Message:
AE,

Your page is great! My favorite line in this latest addition is:

Often my devotees would beg me to dance for them so I used to oblige by waving my arms from side to side and they thought this was the divine dance of Lord Krishna. The fact was, that I was too fat to do a proper dance so waving my arms around seemed like the best option.

But it's all good. Please carry on, carry on.
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Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 16:22:22 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: AE
Subject: More stuff on BM's web site
Message:
I can't wait to see what you come up with next. Great stuff, very amusing. About M's dancing, that really put a damper on my faith that he was the Lord. You'd think the Lord would have a little more rhythm. James Brown puts M to shame. Hey, maybe... nah, he's the Godfather Of Soul. Now, THAT's a title worth having.
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Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 17:05:33 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: AE
Subject: Right to the point !
Message:
You konw what I finally figured out?

When the BM's father started his own schismatic group, he couldn't play on the other Sant Mat's gurus ground for various reasons, one of them He is NOT Sikh, when they all are,
and he couldn't match those Sant Mat gurus, they had millions of followers. He had to find another style to attract another type of audience.

He decided to play an other game for the Hinduists I guess.
those 'krishna' outfits are used in India to put clothes on those krishna statues they have in temples everywhere on big feasts; everybody almost believes they are alive, they bring them food, take them out for processions, etc
The idea is quite simple: he wears those outfits, plays his guru game, and the suckers follow the 'living lord' ....

Genius idea Lord Rawat ! Your father had some brain!
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Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 20:00:17 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Carmen Miranda again-nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 21:07:16 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Please, JM
Message:
Jean-Michel,

This is a really interesting idea you've got here. Could you please elaborate a bit? Was Shri Hans the only one of his tradition that played the Krishna card like that as far as you can tell? Were the rest all Sikhs? Isn't Maharaji one? I thought the name Prem Pal SINGH Rawat meant that he was?

Que pasa, mon frere?

Ciao!
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Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 03:42:45 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Please, JM
Message:
Was Shri Hans the only one of his tradition that played the Krishna card like that as far as you can tell?

I've spent a lot of time in India, I've studied Indian civilisation for 1 year in university, I've read a lot of books about Hindu religion, I've attended 1 Khumba Mela, and I haven't seen ANY guru, or read about, dressed like that, even for ceremonies.
As far as I know, the only *thing* wearing this outfit are the Hindu statues in the Hinduist temples,
- some wear this outfit all the time, and the priest take care of them, change their dresses, give them offering etc
-some wear them only on special occasions

I think we should check this with Ratty Ji, maybe also with Dr D. Lane, and maybe some hindu traditions specialist.

Were the rest all Sikhs?

From what you can see on their pictures (I have some of them on my site, and quite some are available on the various Sant Mat - Radhasoami web sites), they all wear the traditional Sikh costume.
+ they are all very active in the Sikh regions of India (Punjab), which means in India (the costume is a very strong indication of your religion - background - social group - cast) that they ARE Sikh.

Isn't Maharaji one? I thought the name Prem Pal SINGH Rawat meant that he was?

The fact that the Rawats have the 'Singh' particle in their name is not enough to say they are Sikh. Maybe some of their ancestors were a long time ago.
This fact maybe explains Shri M's problem: he wanted to be the head of the group after his guru's death, but he knew he never would because of his origins.
That's why he decided to split I guess.
In case you don't know the Indians are very racists. Even though they tolerate each other well, they wouldn't not allow someone who's not from their cast to take some importance in their group.
I haven't seen any picture of any of the Rawat wearing the traditional Sikh costume. They clearly wear the costume of traditional Hinduists.
I think we should ask some Indians specialists advice...
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Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 05:17:28 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Please, JM: more
Message:
Maybe the Rawat is really a Sikh family, but I don't understand their status (they have to have one according to the Indian traditions, specially as gurus ...)

Their names ARE Sikh names: prempal, satpal, dharampal (raja) ARE definitely Sikh traditional names.

Shaved heads are not from the Sikh tradition.
Shri M's pictures when he was young don't show any long hair or turban as he should have wear.

If they are a Sikh family (the singh particle, and the christian names indicate they should be), Shri M clearly separated himself from his origins for some reasons.
Was it because of his ambitions?
Did he do that before?
If you read his 'official' biography, as published by DLM, it also indicates he had been involved in politics before his religious involvement, and maybe that's the time he got rid of his hair, beard and turban.
And maybe when you adopt that status in India, you can't go back to your previous (religious) status. Specially when you preach that 'knowledge' takes you beyond all those differences, why should you indicate them.
And then he was stuck there himself, with his ambitions, and the Sikh gurus of his new tradition .....

This is all very plausible ...
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Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 21:14:37 (EST)
From: AE
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Right to the point !
Message:
I think you've got something there, Jean-Michel. Much of the credit for BM's new web site must go to you, by the way, for putting those pictures on the net in the first place. There's a lot more to come on BMs web site. How about a page on how to give a knowledge review and nip out for a smoke while the suckers are all meditating. Oh yes, I think I'm channeling big M now...
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Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 13:53:21 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Maximizing the expose's effect
Message:
This is a fresh 'Expression' on ELK:

Brilliant T-shirt offer from Visions

Dear Mark, Josie, Colin and Jonathan

I want to thank you for putting together this site. I've spent a lot of time navigating the web for various reasons, and much of the time it's frustrating and tedious. Anyone who has spent any time travelling the interstate highways in the US knows that positioned at strategic points are rest areas for the tired traveller. I find your site provides this needed respite.

We at Visions International have decided to let our customers know about your site. We thought it would be fun to print a T-shirt with artwork resembling your home page and the site address, and to send it free along with orders placed during the next month. I'd offer to give you the feedback from our customers, but I have a feeling you will be seeing it first!

Thanks for your efforts.

Warm regards

Tom Hagan
Manager, Visions International

EL: Tom, Thanks for this brilliant and supportive offer. We missed your email of 13 November as we were working on the site from Delhi and Kathmandu. We look forward to hearing from your customers.


So we've had our fun and proven our point in spades. The folks at ELK are sincere in one respect only: they honestly want to assist their cult leader represent himself however he sees fit. Their loyalties are to him and they're willing to complete garble the voices of his followers in order to make them sound like harmonious puppets, rather than real people. Sure, we never expected otherwise but now the point's proven beyond question. So what's next?

One thing that seems clear is that the ELKies are planning to simply carry on as if nothing's happened. It'll be interesting to see how they safeguard against tricks like ours in the future but that's a minor detail. There's no reason for us to test the waters again (other than giving Nigel a chance to practise another dialect. Those posts last night by 'Wili' were so smart, I kept laughing hours later just thinking about them). But as the above post and reply show, the ELKies are at least pretending to be shameless. I guess a lifetime of astrology can do that for someone.

I think one effect of all this is that premies, more than ever beofre, will be trained to ignore dissent and us in particular. Taking on the blinders for Maharaji will be deemed an overt act of devotion. Hell, they might even start selling symbolic blinders at events. In any event, I may be wrong but I think we're going to have much less interaction with premies overall. Collectively, they're lowering their self-image to the extent that honest expression is seen as an unnecessary 'freedom'. After all, why express anything else when you can cry over your keyboard at the expressions of love?

This is, admittedly, really frustrating for me. I thrive on dialogue. I walked into the cult on dialogue and out the same way. Sure, thee was a lot of 'feeling' and 'vibe' but always there were words. Now we've got our own but the premies are battening down the hatches and learning to feign deafness. Oh well.

One thing I think would be really neat would be, as I suggested earlier, putting up a permanent page, preferably part of this site, with the expose neatly presented. The key thing is that it be findable by the search engines under 'Enjoyinglife' as well as 'Maharaji'. I think the best effect we can ever have with this stunt is fixing it forever to ELK like a scarlet 'C'. Let it stand as a permanent testament to the price of faith in the Maharaji.

What do you guys think?
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Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 14:30:26 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Puppet.com
Message:
I'm all for a premie web-site where HONEST expression was allowed. Where people could talk about the LORD that they follow...or whatever they call him these days. A place where the past and future are resolved, a place where Maharaji apologizes...OOPS!! I got a little carried away on that, didn't I? But if free speech were allowed instead of suppression of expression, I'd be for it. I wouldn't hang out there, but I think it would be a good thing.

Since ELK is not such a place, I have no respect for it. Who would wear a shirt from this Puppet.com? Can you imagine trying to explain that shirt to someone, Jim? What if (after seeing your t shirt) your friends went to the site and read something. How embarrassing.

A site for the weary traveller? Sheesh! A place for the brain to rest, ok.

Jim, if you think how frustrated you are getting no response from them, just imagine ELK's frustration. They were HAD, yet they aren't speaking about it publically. I doubt they are allowed. At least you got an answer from Bruce-snicker :)

I guess you should ask Brian about setting that up as a page. He's going to have to do the work.
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Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 16:30:34 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Dialog here with a premie-live
Message:
Jim:

You said:
'This is, admittedly, really frustrating for me. I thrive on dialogue. I walked into the cult on dialogue and out the same way. Sure, there was a lot of 'feeling' and 'vibe' but always there were words. Now we've got our own but the premies are battening down the hatches and learning to feign deafness. Oh well.'

At the risk of being slammed all over your website, taken out of context and sushied (I must say you all are good at that!), I am making an effort to communicate with you from across the 'gap'. I don't feign deafness. Your expression of frustration touched me because I thrive on dialog as well. I have not become brain-dead, and did not spend the first half of my life looking for truth to be fooled into forfeiting myself to the carnival sideshow that you paint Maharaji to be, from whatever experiences you have had. And I say that with all due respect that your feelings are sincere and that you are most certainly entitled to them and have the freedom to express them to anyone and anywhere you wish. You have free will.

I never blindly followed anyone, am aware of all the same factoids that you are about Maharaji; we seem to see and interpret these events differently in the big picture. Although I am still practicing Knowledge and respect Maharaji despite all the apparent contradictions (maybe we can go into that later), let me just say that I understand first-hand some of the frustrations that some of you 'ex-ers' have put forth. There are people with Knowledge in my community who are bullies, jerks, snobs and assholes in general, based on their treatment of myself and some other members of the community. If I were a newcomer and either witnessed or personally experienced some of the stuff I have, I'd be out of there fast. I have met instructors that were screwed up, based on their behavior. I have sat at programs and questioned Majharaji's words as he was saying them. Then something happened to me, like going to another level of perspective. I don't see this level change in me as a 'brainwash-final-rinse-spin-dry' stage, either.
Having been in an esoteric order previous to receiving Knowledge, I have alot of old but what I believe is valid information about Jesus, if you will indulge me for a moment. It is recorded that he did things like walk through fields of corn between satsang gigs and his instructors (apostles) would pick ears, rub off the kernels and eat as they went. Sometimes they would do this travel and eat-as-you-go thing on the Sabbath. The Scribes and Pharisees were constanlty following him and looking for what they considered to be discrepencies between their concepts of the holy law, in order to bust Jesus. For the corn-picking and eating on the Sabbath, they reamed him for breaking the holiest law, to keep the Sabbath. The Master said the Sabbath is the not the lord of man, but visa-versa. When someone poured very expensive oil on his feet, one of his instructors criticized it because the oil could have been sold to feed the poor. When Jesus hung with known 'sinners' in the bars of those days, when he defended and befriended Mary Magdelene, a known 'loose woman', when he did many things, he blew minds and concepts constantly, which required his followers to look at the world from a different perspective than the culture had taught.

I happen to believe that Maharaji, alleged warts and all, carries with him the same Knowledge and has the mission of bringing it to human beings on a global scale. He is not Jesus. (By the way, I am not your average person who accepted Jesus - personally, I believe that he got back to his Essene community alive after the crucifixion and most likely raised a family and lived a long and happy life. The books have really been messed with to keep whole populations in servitude - I tell you this so that you can guage who you are reading here is is not caught in anybody's box of concepts. I have come to my own conclusions based on my own experiences and intuitions.)

There are many prophetic writings from many sources - (no, I don't have them here on my desktop to fax...you have probably heard the same ones I speak of already) - that talk of a young boy, a golden boy, who would turn the wheel of the law and bring the world into the Knowledge of God. From India to South America to Native North America, this prophecy has been spoken.

My personal experience with Knowledge has brought peace to me, not a bigger paycheck, (as a matter of fact I am recently unemployed) or a better personality, or anything outer, but something inside that seems to fulfill a thirst I had that nothing else would satisfy. The feeling I got from practicing Knowledge seemed to coincide with all the stuff I had read in all the scriptures from many different religions, of that peak experience of fulfillment. Nobody told me this. I got it inside intuitively. That is all, period. If I did not achieve that from Knowledge, I'd still be looking around for the Common Denominator.

For me, the plusses still outweigh the minusses. I just wanted to respond to your desire for dialog one-to-one, and let you know that all premies are not alike. Don't become a bigot. Don't become anti-premie. It's no better than anti-Semite, anti-black, or anti-anything. Take each person as an individual...don't assume that if you don't hear from many premies, then so-on-and-so-forth. There are thousands of premies who probably don't even know your sight exists, and thousands who have never seen their own site, or have a computer to view it on. And there are many others who don't give a shit about the dialog you and I hold so dearly between human beings. And I don't just mean premies, that's true of all people...have you heard the 80/20 rule? In any group, humanity included, 20% of the membership is active and does 80% of the work.

The only person I can speak for is me, and I just want to wish you a really happy Thanksgiving season and beyond, nothwithstanding your ill-feelings about something that you obviously invested much time and energy into and for whatever reason were disappointed. Looking forward to your reply, and most likely some zingers from the kids. No problem. If I got pissed at some rude reply, then my experience of peace wouldn't be very deep now, would it?

So, Jim, keep in touch if you wish. I hope we both live long enough to see the outcome of the drama that is unfolding on the planet, and survive the shit hitting the fan and live in peace on earth, not just under the sheet, but everywhere.
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Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 16:53:53 (EST)
From: srb
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: Dialog here with a premie-live
Message:
there is a question for you on the 'in defense of maharaji'
thread down below
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Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 17:32:42 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: Dialog here with a premie-live
Message:
SHP: Hey... you have a sense of humor... I like it, to wit: 'I don't see this level change in me as a brainwash-final-rinse-spin-dry stage, either.' That's a good one, I gufaw'd when I read it. I hope you were smiling when you wrote it.

Seriously though, you spoke about running into 'bullies, jerks, snobs and assholes in general.' I think we have all experienced this, too. There is just one question that I have for you, then: Since the proportion of those 'types' seems to be the same within the premie community AND the within the 'world,' what should make me think that you aren't just 'normally' a nice person? With or without M, I think that you would be 'enjoying your life.' You just THINK that you need some 'guru' to get you going. This is the insidious part of cults. They make you THINK that you are nothing without them, but in fact, you ARE something without them. In fact, you are worth MORE than they will ever let you believe you are. This really is the crux of the matter. Why were you supposedly 'miserable' before M and K? Was it a bit of an inferiority complex on your part? Did you 'feel' like you should be so much 'more?' Why? This, my friend, is the magic point where cult leaders make their grand entrance and gain a foothold in YOUR life. Then, anything (and I do mean ANYTHING) good that happens in your life is immediately attributed to the great 'guru.' Of course, anything 'bad' that happens is YOUR OWN FAULT, thus completing a depressing and never ending cycle of self-deprication. You know, really good things happen to alot of people who don't even know about your guru. There are alot of VERY happy people that don't even have a guru. Why is this? How can this be? If the guru is the source of all happiness, then those other 'ignorant folks' should be damned miserable, shouldn't they? But they aren't....Why?

SHP, my question still stands from my last post to you.... After many years (MANY YEARS) why is it that there aren't any FULLY realized souls emerging from this cult? I know that I keep harping on this, but it's THE central point in any discussion that I have about M because this is what 'I' was promised and this is what 'I' didn't receive.... NOT EVEN A BIT! HE LIED! You said, 'look in the mirror' to see a realized soul... YOU ARE WRONG, because I AM NOT realized. 'I' should know my own 'state' of existence, because (as you say) it's MY experience! I can tell you absolutely, categorically and positively: I am no more realized now than when I supposedly 'received' K, more than 25 years ago.... PERIOD! There is one difference between 'then' and 'now,' though: I am no longer seeking enlightenment because I don't believe it exists. Do you know what a 'load' was lifted from me when I stopped believing in that? Two tons of 'rotten vegetables' were removed from my sorry carcus when I stopped seeking that never-attainable fantasy. I can stop beating myself up because I'm not 'attaining' that unattainable thing. I don't have to worry and worry and worry about 'being in my mind' because THAT is where I belong. Get it? NOW, I can just be with my wife and kid and friends. I can try to do whatever I can to help make the world a bit better, rather than spending time looking for something that is nothing more than a phantom. I can stop being 'SELF-ish'. So there it is... care to respond? Please don't try to tell me that I'm miserable, because YOU AIN'T ME, you know what I mean?
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Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 18:10:10 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Dialog here with a premie-live
Message:
I wasn't miserable before M/K and I did not mean to assume you were either. I just felt/feel like we are all living in a very incredible time in earth/humanity development and M has a big part to play in it by spreading Knowledge.

Long ago, you had to sit 20 years on a snowcapped peak or cave or something like that...then it got easier and easier until the point that now we have a Master who is trying to make it as easy and accessible as possible for as many human beings as possible.
Some folks are never satisfied.

So the Master gets criticized for making it difficult and also gets criticized for making it easy. Some of his critics have traced the techniques to some old school, yadda yadda. But the orifices and digits of our bodies are not the techniques, the attitude of the heart is the technique. There are people without hands or tongues who can practice and experience something beautiful, ya know?

You're right, I am a nice guy and was before...as you probably are as well. I feel that despite all the apparent contradictions, M is the Living Master who reveals the Knowledge. This is from me, not a tape. I am close to 50, with K for 20 years, so we can relate.
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Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 18:34:04 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: Dialog here with a premie-live
Message:
Hi SHP - I am glad you weren't driven away by the negative responses you got a couple of days ago. I appreciated it when you said that you could accept them because the people were hurting. They are - I guess I should say WE are. We tend to be a bit defensive here - sometimes premies come on this forum and say some pretty abusive and obnoxious things. Also, some of the people on this site tend to go into a 'feeding frenzy' when a premie posts - I am sorry that it happened to you. Actually, most of the people who post here are pretty nice (believe it or not!).

I am currently in a three-way discussion with two premies on another premie forum (not enjoyinglife.org), so I won't speak about Maharaji in this post. You can read what I have to say on there, and join in the discussion if you'd like. The URL (net address) is:
http://www.paradise-web.com/plus_le/plus.mirage?who=premieforum

I did want to say a few thing regarding your anti-corporation stance, and your interest in the use of hemp. The people on the ex-premie forum come from a wide range of political and environmental views. When we discuss these things (politics, public policy, vegetarianism, environmental issues, etc. etc.) we get into arguments. Plus it is off-topic, which we don't encourage on this forum. I guess this proves that all ex-premies are NOT the same. I do appreciate (and agree) with your viewpoint regarding DuPont, etc., but I think it's important to stick to the main topic here, which is Maharaji and his organization. That's what we all have in common here - premie or ex-premie.

Take care,
Katie

P.S. At the risk of being conciliatory, I wanted to tell you that I did understand about teaching your kids to say 'I' statements ('I hate it', rather than 'it is horrible'. I am working on that one myself. I also get how your wife found this site (we have a link to enjoyinglife.org, so it would probably show up on certain search engines.)
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Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 19:39:14 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Very well said , Mike
Message:
Glad to have your voice back on the forum. You're coming in loud & clear to this sister
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Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 18:34:12 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: Dialog here with a premie-live
Message:
SHP wrote ' (By the way, I am not your average person who accepted Jesus - personally, I believe that he got back to his Essene community alive after the crucifixion and most likely raised a family and lived a long and happy life. The books have really been messed with to keep whole populations in servitude - I tell
you this so that you can guage who you are reading here is is not caught in anybody's box of concepts. I have come to my own conclusions based on my own experiences and intuitions.)'

Sheesh, that MUST have been an esoteric order! Are you sure they didn't ask you to leave? What order were you in? Have you kept up with any of the latest scholarship on the historical Jesus? That 'Jesus as Essene' stuff is no longer accepted by anyone. Oops, I must be caught in someone's box of concepts; darn seminary education!!
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Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 18:41:03 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: Dialog here with a premie-live
Message:
Oh yeah, SHP,
I ought to tell you that Mickey is an Episcopal priest who is getting an M.S. in early church history. (Nice guy, though).
Katie
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Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 18:53:25 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Dialog here with a premie-live
Message:
Hey Rev. Father Mickey:

This is Brother SHP. Never reached the priesthood...bought into the 'each person their own priest' idea....priest=guide in Greek.
I have information too, and don't want to get into 'my information can beat up your information' thing, OK?

I did not have the idea about Jesus surviving the cross until long after I left the order. Funny thing about discoveries. Like on the news, one week coffee is good for you and the next week it's bad. (See 'Sleeper' the movie by Woody Allen if you haven't.)

The Dead sea Scrolls work for me, as do the Lamsa Bibles, and Gospel Light also by George Lamsa, plus some things I learned elsewhere. George Lamsa speaks, reads and writes Aramaic, which as you know, is the language Jesus spoke. So he bypassed the Latin and Greek and came up with a clean version. Check him out.
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Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 19:43:40 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: Dialog here with a premie-live
Message:
Brother SHP,
As far as I know, none of the earliest manuscripts we have were written in Aramaic; they are in Hebrew and Greek. I haven't read any of Lamsa's stuff but will check it out. I must tell you, though, I don't spend any time here trying to convert anyone, but I find the idea that 'Jesus taught this Knowledge' to be offensive and inaccurate. You may enjoy the techniques and all, but it is silly to make that claim.
As far as Jesus surviving the crucifixion, I have trouble buying into that Schonfield stuff. I'm sure you know that the tomb of Jesus can be found in India and Japan. I don't think he was an Essene, and I doubt that he really had any connections with the community at Qumran. Oh, I believe that coffee is good for you, as is keeping up in the latest scholarship.
Hey, I sound like some kinda pharisee! But I want you to know that I don't subscribe to the idea that there are inferior orders, but priest is the order to which I have been ordained and I am not ashamed. Now, what was the name of the monastic order to which you belonged?
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Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 20:54:07 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btitnernet.com
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: I have a question, Father
Message:
All this talk about whether Jesus died on the cross or not; I have learned a few things myself about crucifixion by the Romans and I would like to ask you, Mickey, if you agree with my findings.

Firstly, crucifiction doesn't appear to have been carried out in the way depicted by Medieval artists. I believe that the hands were not pierced by nails but that a nail was put through each wrist and attatched to a crossbar from which the crucified person would hang - from his nailed wrists. Nails driven through the hands would not support the weight and would tear.

The legs were then bent at the knees and one nail was driven through both overlapping feet and fixing them to the upright post (or wall) or two nails were used, one through each foot. The legs were not straight but bent at the knee so that the feet were just below the crotch area. I'd just like to point out that since the Romans used to regularly crucify Jews by nailing them to City walls (as an example) the method of crucifixion which I've outlined would be the only one which would work.

Death from crucifixion came from suffocation. The weight hanging from the upward, outstretched arms would eventually stop the breathing mechanism from working. The crucified person would be able to breathe in but find it increasingly difficult to breathe out due to their hanging weight impeding their chest and diaphram. In order to prolong their life, some crucified people would support some of their weight with their nailed (to the post) feet and while this must have been agony, the reflex action to prolong life would have taken over.

Some people were able to prolong their lives for quite a long time by pushing their weight up from their nailed feet in order to help take the strain off their chests and keep breathing. For this reason, the Romans would check to see if anyone was still alive from doing this and if they were, they would break the crucified peron's legs to prevent them from supporting their weight on their feet. Death followed quickly afterwards. According to the Bible, the Roman soldiers went to break the legs of Jesus to make sure he was dead before the Sabbath and they found that he was already dead.

Finally Mickey, there is something else which I find very interesting which you may like to comment on. It is said that when Jesus was crucified, the Romans put a sighn above his head which translated means, 'King of the Jews'. I see this as the ultimate piss take or mockery of Jesus by the Roman soldiers. Rather than see it as a romantic gesture on the part of some compassionate soldiers, I think they were kicking a man when he's down and ridiculing Jesus right to the end. The fact that there is no actual documentation of Jesus ever claiming to be the King of the Jews, meaning that he never made such a claim, makes it all the more ironic.
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Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 16:29:16 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: I have a question, Father
Message:
Your understanding of crucifixion is correct; the death occurs from suffication and it was a long, agonizing death. According to the stories in the gospels, Jesus died quickly. As far as the 'I.N.R.I.' sign on the cross, I agree with you; it was a way of mocking the claim of Jesus' followers. Crucifixion was a Roman method of execution and a pretty cruel method at that. The historic anti-semitism was supposedly based on the idea that Jesus was killed by the Jews, but it seems to me that if the Jews had killed him, he would have been stoned to death and I'd be wearing a rock around my neck!
Yes, David, I agree with your understandings of the crucifixion.
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Date: Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 02:17:16 (EST)
From: op
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: I have a question, Father
Message:
On the subject of INRI - I think this is a pretty well known interpretation. Even when I was surrounded with avid (or rabid?) Catholics in the 1950s, we were taught that the ROMANS had placed the sign over Jesus' head as mockery. Add to that a crown of thorns - further mockery.

The question that came up when I studied religious history during the 70s was one of nails. Then we were told that those who were crucified were simply tied to their crosses. So why nails for Jesus? Do you know anything about this?
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Date: Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 12:22:11 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: op
Subject: I have a question, Father
Message:
Hi op,
According to Harper's Bible Dictionary, criminals' arms were either tied to the cross or nailed on. I think that since Jesus' crime was that of treason against the state, he was probably nailed to the cross to continue the torture started with the floggings and the crown of thorns. Crucifixion was a pretty nasty business.
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Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 19:53:07 (EST)
From: Sam C.
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: A wart, or not a wart...
Message:
SHP:

Re: I happen to believe that Maharaji, alleged warts and all, carries with him the same Knowledge and has the mission of bringing it to human beings on a global scale.

I have to admit that I don't really understand this. If he has the warts (as opposed to 'alleged warts') then exactly how did he secure his mission to reveal 'perfection.' What legitimates him? Since I know a lot of folks who are, without much controversy, better people than Maharaji would they not be a better choice for such an office? Forgive me, but I don't see the logic in what you're saying. So, I should think that what you have to be saying is that Maharaji is wartless after all. Is that not so? Or do you really mean that it's perfectly alright to follow someone as a spiritual leader no matter what their personal failings... i.e. without taking cognizance of those failings?

-Sam
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Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 19:59:05 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Sam C.
Subject: A habit, a bad habit
Message:
Hey Sam C.,
Inserting an opinion here--I think premies develop a 'relationship' w/GM that makes them blind to his warts...and blind to the ethical disconnect...

Goldie admitted in a post to me that he knows deep down that he doesn't need GM anymore but that it's hard to turn love off after all these years, now that it's become a habit. That's what GM is--a habit! And being devoted to him is a habit state
Helen
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Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 20:09:48 (EST)
From: Sam C.
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: A habit, a bad habit
Message:
Helen:

No argument about the blindness. Just trying to see if I can force those eyes open a smidgeon.

-Sam
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Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 19:53:07 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: Dialog here with a premie-live
Message:
Hi, SHP. Hope you don't mind my jumping in here. I read your post with great interest.

You sound like a very nice person. I liked your point about Jesus being misunderstood in his own time and blowing people's concepts (eating on the Sabbath, hanging out with whores, etc.)

Personally, I think that there are some huge differences between Maharaji and Jesus. I like what Jesus had to say about doing for others, loving others, etc. I have not heard Maharaji say much in this vein. Have you? Do you believe that Jesus taught his devotees how to do Hindu meditation? I didn't live back then, but I don't believe this is the truth. Of course this is my opinion. How big was Jesus on 'gratitude' from his followers?

Anyway, thanks for the post and I look forward to discussing with you, if you care to respond.

VP
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Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 21:52:53 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: Dialog here with a premie-live
Message:
SHP,

I, too, think you're presenting yourself quite civilly here. You deserve credit for that. Thanks very much.

I must say, though, I'm not sure what to say to you. I wonder, are you really so naive as to believe all the 'spiritual' stories that come your way? It appears that you do. You cite examples of things -- like supposed stories about Jesus -- that, in my mind, just cry out for careful scrutiny. Yet you lean the other direction. You just lap this stuff up without question.

You ask to be judged on your own character and not merely lumped together in this loose, unfair collective called 'premies'. Okay, I'm judging you individually. And what I find is someone who appears to be ignorant of science and wilfully abandoned to the dog-eared mystical refuse of myriad cultures.

Forget about prophecies and such for a moment. Let's change the subject. What do you know about evolution? How about natural selection? What do you think about these things?
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Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 19:26:22 (EST)
From: srb----fatrat
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: frustrating and tedious!!!
Message:
tom hagen, who has somehow risen to the top
of the visions brick a brack empire,
finds going on the web 'frustrating and tedious'!
he is backing up fatrat's
anti web comments.

If this knowledge and having the lord as your employer is not enough to know how to spend your moments in a
state of bliss instead of being frustrated and lost in
tedium. And blame it on what you are doing instead of
going within and finding a way to 'enjoylife' while you wander the
web.
The guy is a total wimp.
I am going to e-mail him.
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Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 19:38:11 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Visions Ad
Message:
Jim, bringing this up since you quoted the 'Vision Thing' again:

Here is a more truthful rendition of the Visions mailing:

As the holiday season is approaching, we are very happy to present this special, very lucrative/immensely profitable, overpriced, grossly material, collection of videotapes, audiocassettes, 'music', publications and 'gift items.'

We know some of you have been reading that horrible 'ex-premie.org' website, (we sure have) filled with comments from bitter, vindictive, confused ex-premies spreading lies about Maharaji and knowledge. So, to distract attention from that, we got some premies in England to start a new website, that is so thoroughly controlled and censored, that only 'positive' things about Maharaji and knowledge will appear there. It is entitled a website 'for those who appreciate the teachings of Maharaji.' [Now, before you stop laughing, realize that we MUST say Maharaji actually HAS teachings that make any sense, aren't completely contradictory, and haven't changed drastically over the years. Otherwise, what is the point of a 'master?' Who would you be grateful to?] But we know what you REALLY appreciate is the unthinking, unanalyzed, blind acceptance of whatever drivel Maharaji expells, as well as the parrotting of same by obliging premies that goes on there. And boy, we are SO excited about this website, that just appeared out of nowhere, even though we were in on it from the beginning, that 'we' just spontaneously decided, because we got so excited, to offer a t-shirt with an artistic rendition from the homepage of the site.

It is our special gift to you. It's the least we can do, considering the huge profits we make on videos that cost $20 for as little as 4 minutes. We hope you enjoy 'discovering' the site as much as we have, and don't pay any attention to those accusations that censorship goes on there. Lies, all lies being spread by our enemies! And someday, somehow, perhaps within our lifetimes,the website operators will figure out a way to give the appearance that free and open 'conversations' can go on there, while at the same time, censoring the hell out of all comments, and preventing anyone with even the teensiest criticism of the master from participating.

Those of us on the payroll of Visions International, mainly the master and his two daughters, wish you all the best during the holday season.'
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Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 07:35:05 (EST)
From: srb
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Email that to visions!-nt
Message:
brilliant work again JW
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Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 13:07:00 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: srb
Subject: Email that to visions!-nt
Message:
Do you have an e-mail address for Visions?
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Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 19:28:08 (EST)
From: srb
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: fax that to visions!
Message:
I'm looking, in the meantime, here is the fax.
fax8054964777
fax 8054953165
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Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 19:48:26 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Maximizing the expose's effect
Message:
One thing that seems clear is that the ELKies are planning to simply carry on as if nothing's happened.

What did you expect, Jim? What else can they do without giving even more publicity to their problems?

I think one effect of all this is that premies, more than ever beofre, will be trained to ignore dissent and us in particular.

For some premies, yes. But those are the premies that are really scared of any discouraging word and wouldn't be associating with us much anyway. I think that for the many premies who read this website and forum regularly, and there are many I think, the effect will be more cognitive dissonance, and some more open questioning. It's another 'drip' in the 'drip, drip, drip' or beginning to think for oneself again.

Don't worry, Jim, there will be plenty of dialogue. Maybe a lot of it will be one way for awhile.

I strongly agree that the whole expose, including Nigels' commentaries afterwards, and that Visions Ad should be enshrined on this website if at all possible, along with a LINK to the enjoyinglife website.
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Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 04:00:10 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Jim
Subject: NOT 'business as usual'
Message:
In the two weeks prior to Tuesday 17th, the number of (genuine) 'Lives with Knowledge' published = 13. Since Tuesday only one has appeared - from India, which suggests maybe Jonathan or someone passed it on.

This could mean they have a pile in their in-tray - not from us - which need censoring, but they don't know how to go about it.
It may alternatively mean they suspect them of being fakes. But then, if they didn't need censoring, they would be of no use to us so they might as well publish.

What do you reckon?
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Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 13:02:20 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: NOT 'business as usual'
Message:
Maybe, Nigel. But I don't that many premies even WANT to publish those Lives stories. Partly because they want to give their names for the whole world to see and the vast majority of premies these days are 'closet premies.' Also, I still think a lot of premies are embarrassed by the fake syrupy sweetness of the site and don't want to be associated with it.

Face it, a significant percentage of those stories, especially the 17 you mention, were coming from US, especially from YOU, oh prolific one!

I agree, though, they HAVE to take a step back and re-evaluate what to do. It's kind of funny to think about. Maybe they are spending time trying to weed out the other entries from ex-premies that you didn't tell them about. But how? I wonder if EV might be supplying them with lists of attendees at cult programs as a possible place to start.
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Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 16:38:03 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: NOT 'business as usual'
Message:
You're probably right, Joe. But the thirteen I mentioned didn't include ours, so they are perfectly capable of processing a lot more - if, of course, they are receiving them at the same rate. Time will tell.
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Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 13:04:26 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: NOT 'business as usual'
Message:
Nigel,

I think the ELKies are going to simply implement some form of identity check system. Beyond that I really have no idea what's going on.

The ELKies are shameless apparently. However, I did email them the following just now:

'We're going to make a permanent page entitled something like 'Enjoyinglife Exposed!'. It'll feature the heavily censored and changed 'life stories' you guys already know about. We'll try to ensure that it's readily findable by all the search engines. The idea, of course, is that no one will miss the fact that you guys function at, shall we say, a 'certain' level of honesty.

I haven't talked with the others about this so I can't make any promises but I was thinking it might be neat and perhaps exceedingly fair if we gave you a chance to explain yourselves there. So far you've just ignored us, haven't you? You've ignored my email, you've never responded on the ex forum and you've said nothing here about this scandal. Indeed, you've acted as if it never took place.

Now, however, I'm offering you a chance at some damage control. If you'd like to submit a defence for your actions, I'm saying we'll post it -- uncensored -- along with the evidence. Interested?

By the way, I should warn you, if you ever begin posting email addresses here so that your happy brothers and sisters can actually communicate with each other, we will send each one of them a notice explaining how your editorial policy works in practice. I'm sure you'll then get at least some inquiries from some of these premies asking how you justify altering peoples' 'lives' and 'expressions' as cavalierly as you do. Who knows? Perhaps you've already gotten some such emails. In that case, then, you could simply refer them to your one-time boiler-plate justification and be done with it.

Just a suggestion.

Anyway, love the show. Especially the fact that you guys are now in bad with Visions and all that. This couldn't have happened at a better time, don't you think? Tell me, have you heard from Maharaji yet?

Sincerely, in His Help,

Jim'
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Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 14:05:22 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The 'exposing ELK' page
Message:
Hi Jim - Boy, you're really rubbing their noses in it...

Regarding the 'exposing ELK' page: I haven't talked to Shri Brian about this yet, but we are really backed up on the Ex-Premie.Org web site. Also, I am not sure if the 'exposing ELK' material is appropriate for the site itself (sort of like the Durga Ji letter), and it doesn't fit the theme of Jean-Michel's site. (I don't want to argue about this because the final decision is obviously Brian's, not mine.)

However, given the amount of other material we are trying to get on-line now, I suggest that you or Nigel or someone make a web page specifically for the 'exposing ELK' material, and we will link to it (we already have a link to ELK itself). Jean-Michel and Sir David have already done this, as you know. I know you can get free web pages at geocities.com, and I think they're also available elsewhere (delphi.com?).

P.S. Jim, you really do need a home page, anyway. If you'd been an Amazon.com partner, you could have made a few bucks off of all the copies of 'Blind Watchmaker' that you've sold on here, not to mention other books you've recommended.
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Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 17:35:28 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: The 'exposing ELK' page
Message:
Also, I am not sure if the 'exposing ELK' material is appropriate for the site itself

Amazing.

By the way, now that you mention Durga Ji's letter, there's no way someone can access it without digging deep through the archives, is there? I think that's a real pity. After all, where else can the faithful read 'mum' calling people who don't practise 'assholes'? If there's some reason why THAT's not appropriate material for the ex-premie site (Galactic Headquarters for Maharaji's 'ENEMIES') it's beyond me.

However, given the amount of other material we are trying to get on-line now, I suggest that you or Nigel or someone make a web page specifically for the 'exposing ELK' material, and we will link to it (we already have a link to ELK itself). Jean-Michel and Sir David have already done this, as you know. I know you can get free web pages at geocities.com, and I think they're also available elsewhere (delphi.com?).

Katie,

Just curious, what great amount of material are you trying to get on line?

I'm not sure why you're so insistent on me having my own web page. I tell you, I don't want one. Not now, anyway. I don't have a dog to show off and I'm not actually an agent for Richard Dawkins.

While we're on the topic of links and such, I thought you were going to link JM's pages individually, by name, on the site plan here. Wasn't that the idea? So that people could go to the index and then go directly to Maharaji's quotes, say, or one of the various other pages he's put up. Right now, all of his stuff has exactly the same kind of exposure here as does MMT, Keith's protective custody unit.
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Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 18:09:46 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The 'exposing ELK' page
Message:
Jim, I was just suggesting (not 'insistent') that you have your own web page. So many people have bought copies of 'Blind Watchmaker' that we make jokes about you getting a cut of the profits.

Re: Jean-Michel's page links - you can talk to J-M about it, but that's the way he, Brian, and I decided to do it. Also, it DOES have an entire page devoted to it on the site, BTW, not just one link. People can click on any section of J-M's page that they are interested in and go to it. We will (I think) also have a link to his page on the revised history page, which is in the works. Also, we are revising the whole nuts and bolts section, plus holding down jobs, and trying to have some kind of a family and social life.

Brian may feel differently about the 'Exposing ELK' material - I was just stating my opinion. I don't run the site - he does.

P.S. Re: Durga's letter - this was talked about endlessly, and you know why we didn't put it on the web site as a page. We offered to put it on as a 'Journeys' entry, with appropriate introduction by the woman who received it, and that offer is still open.
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Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 18:21:14 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Correction & Suggestions
Message:
Katie,

I see that there is an index to JM's pages here. My apologies. However, and here we get into the old suggestion box stuff, I'm afraid, I think it shouldn't be tucked away under that one link. Why not include his index as part of the site index itself?

Also:

1) The Journey's entries should be dated or at least searchable in reverse order.

2) The link to the newsgroup should be either cancelled or at least clarified so that no one bothers going there.

3) The links section should be expanded and categorized to assist people following up on whatever interests we all feel have supplanted, assisted us with or simply explained the cult experience for us. In other words, there should be a bunch of atheistic and scientific links for those so inclined. I guess ther'd have to be whatever new age links as well, if someone thought they found post-Maharaji understanding there. I don't know, but surely there's room for a lot more than what we've currently got.

4) Pictures? Pictures of ex's, pictures of us in ourt old cult days, clips of Maharaji dancing like a beached whale. Just a thought.

5) And yes, I have to say it. I think it's time to spruce up the graphics. Why not? We need our own footprint or something... just kidding. But surely this place can be spruced up a bit, don't you think?

I've noticed that several people, over time, who claim to have the relevant skills, have offered to help. Why not let them?

I don't for a moment want to irritate you or Brian but I think that this forum can and should be seen as a natural on-going suggestion box. The alternative, just sending Brian email, offers no way of testing the support for an idea, let alone discussing a proposal for the site with all concerned.

What do you think?
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Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 18:45:10 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Correction & Suggestions
Message:
Jim - Here's the way it goes: Brian could use another assistant, but if there is a person who is skilled at web page design out there, I have yet to find them. A lot of people HAVE volunteered to work on the site, and that's great, but they don't have the necessary skills (including me, although I am learning). We could really use someone with web page design skills on the level of Mili's (but obviously he's not going to want to do it.) If anyone does have those skills, wants to volunteer, and I have just misunderstood, then please speak up!

I will suggest the first two items to Brian plus putting J-M's site on the index. Regarding pictures - we are putting a lot of pictures on the history page - however, we are hampered by a lack of scanned pictures. If anyone has pictures out there that they want to scan and send to the site, then that's great. A few people have done this and we appreciate it very much. Neither of us has a scanner, and we've had to beg, borrow, and steal to scan most of the pictures we do have.

I am not sure about adding more links to non-cult-related items. It could get pretty intense - you know that everyone on here has their own set of favorite links, plus their own philosophy of life, and ideas. If we link to Dawkins, then we have to link to someone's favorite UFO site (I'm exaggerating but that is a problem). We would have to look at each site and make judgements on the relevancy of the material - you know. Personally, I'd like to keep the links down to cult and Maharaji related material that we know is relevant.

Regarding the graphics - you and D@vid seem to be the two people who are bothered by this. Most of the other people don't seem to care. IMHO this is a pretty low-priority item that would take a lot of work and time to change. If anyone else feels differently, then please speak up.

I'm not sure how Brian feels, but the irritating part of people making suggestions on the forum is that WE have to do the work. If something is wrong (like a broken link or something), then obviously we appreciate being told. But most of the time, people just say 'Why don't you guys do this?' when it's something that's really time-consuming and/or difficult. One of the reasons I suggested that you make your own web page is so you could see how much time it can take to do these things (and also so you could publish things that we might not have the time or inclination to put on the site).

Sincerely,
Katie
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Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 21:39:24 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Correction & Suggestions
Message:
Katie,

First and foremost, I'm completely hip to your frustration at people suggesting things without offering the womanhours, especially SKILLED ones, to do the work. Believe me, believe me, believe me.

But, Katie, I'm confused. Hasn't anyone fit the bill in terms of skill and interest? I know Anon and Bian got off to a shaky start. In fact, I agreed with Brian then that Anon was just nitpicking. He would have bugged me too, had I been in Brian's shoes. But I also recall Anon's well-expressed (as usual) mea culpa. Maybe now he's finally broken enough to be harnessed, saddled and put to work. You've seen his site. The guy knows what he's doing.

Then there's AOAJ. I'm not talking about letting this guys take over anything. I'm talking about enlisting their humble assitance in the service of the antichrist. I only know that he mentioned he'd offered but, alas, no takers.

Or Nigel perhaps? Isn't he up to speed on this stuff?

Well, I guess we'll see if anyone else steps up. I hate the idea of you two being over-worked at all here. That sucks and it's not my intention in the least to burden you further. Honestly.

The scanning thing shouldn't be so hard now. More and more people have these units. Even a digital camera will suffice. All it takes, I would think, is a simple request here on the forum and someone's bound to say they've got one and would happily scan a bunch of pictures and email them to you and Brian. Yes, I'd do it happily and WILL do it if and when I get a unit. I just don't have one yet and can't decide what to get. Scanner? Digital camera? Camcorder? I'm probably going to get something. Meanwhile, however, someone here must already be set up.

As for the graphics, no, it's not a high priority. The page is really nice, it's really presentable and all that. Again, without knowing exactly how it's done, I'll take your word for it that you and Brian have indeed put a lot of work into developing and maintaining this site. But this just comes back to the question of able assistance. I think being an ex-premie is a very sharp thing, in a sort of victimized post-modern kind of way. I'm not ashamed to say that I think we should look as smart as we can. To some extent, anyway, the medium is the message.

(Wouldn't it be funny if we ran a background hamster's footprint on some of the pages? Or maybe cloven-hoof? Snakeskin perhaps? Just a thought.)

If you guys are really open to it I DO hope someone offers some mock-up improvements for your consideration. With any luck, some would be nifty enough for accpetance and the temporary elf could do the implementation him or her self. Nothing to hold one's breath for but something nonetheless.

As for the links, as one of the least tolerant people here I do get your point. Do you think I want to see any links to Mark's favorite channeler? No, of course not. But, I'd be happy to pay that price if, in exchange, some of my favorites had a foothold. Yes, I'm only thinking about relevant ones. To me, all this evolution stuff IS relevant because it demystifies crazy notions about the breath and consciousness and what have you. Yes, I think a richer set of links would be used and useful. Theyt just have to be clearly categorized, that's all.

Okay, that was process. What about substance? Katie, this is a war for peoples' hearts and minds. We're dealing with a despicable person in the form of a hamster. Unconscionable at least. Remember how when all this started, back in Scott Perry's day, back in the alt-support.ex-cult days, we actually thought we could maybe get some sort of reasoned response from Maharaji. Now we've gotten a response and it's clear as day. We're his enemies and he plans to do nothing but ignore us no matter what personality or level of pain, confusion or history we bring to this site. The premies would as soon shut us down as ever talk to us again. Ask op if she had her preference, would it be to lurk here and maintain some very superficial relations with apostate premies or to just see us silenced and forgotten. They're all the same in that respect. If they're into Maharaji, they're agin' us.

So why not play our cards fully? I can't believe that you'd want to distance this site in the slightest from the ELK expose. This IS the biggest splash we've had here for a while now. Before that what was it? Some of JM's gathering archive? Maharaji's home floor plans? How about when we first heard from Malibu Mole? And no, let's not forget Marolyn's letter. And, talking of Marolyn, I seem to recall something about one Monica Lewis.

All of these reports are, in some sense, distasteful! If someone ever comes forward with more dirt on Maharaji, that will be too. This is one big, public relations contest and I think we should play it as such. All of this is in response, by the way, to your comment that, with my own page, I could publish material you guys might not be inclined to put up. Really, I can't imagine what should fit that description. I'm an ex-premie and this is the ex-premie site. We've got one very narrow field of focus, that being the credibility of our former cult leader and the effect he's had on us and others.

I do hope someone's willing and able to help you more substantially with the page. It's not me. I'm too busy elsewhere and too unschooled in the arts. Don't get me wrong, though. If, for some unforseeable and sad reason, you guys quit tomorrow and no one else would step up, I'd find a way to do it. But that would suck. I really like both of you and would hate for anything like that to happen. And I also hate the idea of either one of you being overworked. But I also hate the idea of the page holding back in the slightest.
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Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 21:54:52 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Correction & Suggestions
Message:
Hi Jim -
Incomplete answer here -
So far Jean-Michel is the only one who has actually come forward, made pages, and submitted them to Brian. I don't know if Anon's ever offered to work on the page (in the past year, that is). Although he certainly has the skills, he probably doesn't have the time. My understanding of AoAJi's offer was that he wanted to work on the forum or with programming, which is the stuff that Brian prefers to handle himself. If there's anyone out there, I hope they'll read this and speak up.

As far as scanning goes, you can scan pictures at Kinko's (do they have those in Canada? It's a copy shop.) if you have the time and money. I think Brian has an ad up for pictures in the reader's ad section of the site. Again, maybe someone will read your post and speak up if they have a scanner.

I appreciate your comments, and it does seem like you understand some of the difficulties involved in keeping the site up to date. Let's hope we can find some more people to help.

Gotta go,
Katie
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Date: Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 06:31:55 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: What I'm offering to help!
Message:
Hi Jim, Katie, Brian, and all

Remember the name of my site?

I offer to host other 'papers' on my site,
like
The truth about enjoying life
the truth about m's wealth
how m really cares for his devotees (including that famous Marolyn's letter)
etc

As I don't intend to write the articles myself (my english is not good enough, and I'm already involved in adding new materials), I suggest whoever wants to do it to do so.
Like the articles about Radhasoami/Sant Mat that some other exes put together and wrote.
What I offer is to edit the pages when the articles will be ready, and to host them on my site.
Unless someone else wants to do that.
I understand that Brian is already very busy with ex-premie.org as it is now, that he only has a limited time, and that he can't be involved in maintaining and updating too much stuff.
I still have some spare time.

Regarding the links between ex-premie.org and various web-sites, like mine, it also requires a lot of work and editing, and updating every page of one site when there is new related stuff on another site also takes a lot.
That's why I have one page (the site map) on ex-premie.org.
When I have new stuff on my site, it only requires to change 1 page on ex-premie.org

What do you think about all this?
Anybody volunteers?
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Date: Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 17:24:31 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: What I'm offering to help!
Message:
I am building some web-pages for the enjoying life expose and 'submission guidelines', though I won't be hosting them. I am discussing this with Katie and Brian by email at the moment. Your offer to host some pages might be very useful. I'll make sure Katie sees this if she hasn't already.
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Date: Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 18:09:44 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: What I'm offering to help!
Message:
Yes, I did see J-M's very generous offer. I can't think of anything at the moment that I myself particularly want on-line, but Jim may be able to. In the meantime, I'll remember what you said, J-M!

Thanks much,
Katie
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Date: Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 19:36:18 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Marolyn's Letter
Message:
Did Durga Ji write a letter to the forum? Is it in the archives somewhere? I'm dying to see it. Let me guess--she was trying to convey how hurt she is that we are slamming GM. (I'm just guessing, I haven't a clue)
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Date: Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 20:55:54 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Marolyn's Letter
Message:
Hi Helen - It was actually a copy of a letter she had written to another premie (now ex) woman regarding some complaints the recipient had about sexual abuse and some remarks M had made. I used to have a copy of it but it is gone. Jim might still have it around. After much discussion, we decided not to put it on the site because it was like reading someone else's mail, really. Plus Durga Ji wrote it when she was recovering from brain surgery, and I (we) felt sorry for her - she sounded like she'd had a hard time. But, yeah, she did say that she thought ex-premies were assholes. Jim did post it on the forum but I can't remember when.
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Date: Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 22:44:20 (EST)
From: Can someone post
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Marolyn's Letter 4 Helen?
Message:
no additional text
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Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 12:03:37 (EST)
From: El Nino
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Possibly God may exist
Message:
Last night, I went to the public library and forgot on the counter an envelope I had in my hands when I came in. A few minutes later, I realized I had lost it. I looked everywhere. I even prayed. I Always do when I buy a lottery ticket, am desperate and am about to have an orgasm. Last place I looked was the library. Now, I know this is a weak proof, but if what I wish for sometimes happen, wouldn't it be okay to wish the perfect hamster goes out of his harmful business? I don't cost nothing, unless I wish for it at church, that's for sure.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 12:23:03 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: El Nino
Subject: What're you smokin, man? (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 12:29:01 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: El Nino
Subject: Maybe you have...
Message:
been hanging out at the student disco reading too many comical books!
(;
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Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 12:59:27 (EST)
From: El Nino
Email: None
To: El Nino
Subject: Possibly God may exist
Message:
I know my rational wouln't impress a theologian but that'd stand-up at satsang, wouldn't it? On the other hand (right is right and left is...? Wrong. You're right.) what other proof do I have god exist? Creation? Who created god? I sometimes gets superstitious. Last night I had a bout. I know americans have a hard time admitting the idea of god may be questionnable. To me, spirituality is country music. I'm serious here. You want to know why? This is why:
Spirituality is something intimate that take me in contact with who I really am, something no one else is nor understand the way I do. Hank Williams does it all for me, therefore it is spirituality. The perfect master does exactly the contrary. He keeps his followers as remote as possible from their own private ideology. He is spiritually dangerous. That, to me is a crime worse than stealing milk money.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 19:58:15 (EST)
From: Sir Egg Noodle
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: El Nino
Subject: Possibly God may exist
Message:
I like it, El Nino! Everybody praises God when they have an orgasm. Why even as I write after midnight now, in London, there are people crying out, 'Oh God, I'm coming!' as they reach their orgasms.

I thought you meant Hank Marvin of the Shadows at first. I like all music if it's good. Have you seen the new film with Patrick Stewart (Jean-Luke Picard) in where he's a humble turnip farmer in Lincolnshire, England and where he gets into line dancing? All good stuff. Live music is the best, I think, where you can see the faces of the musicians and singers.

One of the best live bands I saw quite by accident in Bournemouth, England. They were playing the Pan pipes in the town centre and they were something else man! I was taken somewhere there. And God was there too, of course.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 13:01:46 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: El Nino
Subject: Possibly God may exist
Message:
Just curious, what do you pray for when you are about to have an orgasm?
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Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 13:20:29 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: El Nino
Subject: Possibly God may exist
Message:
Isn't this the same falacy that we fell into as premies? Isn't the logical falacy called, something like post hoc ergo propter hoc? Although I had to take 3 years of latin in Catholic High School, I'm not completely sure about the translation, but I think it's: 'after the event, therefore because of the event.'

So, I receive knowledge and I feel good, and I listen to M and I feel good. Therefore, the good experiences I am having are DUE to knowledge and M.

Of course, for premies, there is more. ONLY good experiences are due to M and knowledge. All the crap that happens in my life is due to ME, my mind, the world, or anything else BESIDES M and knowledge.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 11:08:07 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: My offer to ELK
Message:
I sentr them this:

'Hey guys,

Why won't you talk with us?

I'll tell you what. If you reply to me and explain how you justify tampering with these life stories as you do, I'll let you in on at least one more fake you haven't found yet. That's fair, isn't it?

Tell me how you feel about your deception and I'll help you clean up mine. Deal?

Remember how you first came to Maharaji for a little 'truth'? Did you ever think you'd end up playing this sordid game?

Anyway, there's my offer.'
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Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 12:22:19 (EST)
From: El Nino
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: My useless offer to ELK
Message:
There are a few things you do not seem to understand Jimmy boy. One of them is there's no point trying to argue with these fanatics. Another one is that to them, we are fanatics. Some of them graying toothless teenagers have been washing their brains with this rethoric for up to 27 years now. (Colin, Joan, Annie just to name a few you know). Their wheel will keep turning long after the hamster is dead. I Think you are wasting your time but then, time is cheap and yours to waste. I started to post some web adresses in news groups (ELK and this one. I'll add the GMJ 'official' website.) to bring attention to the hidden phenomena. There are more than 20,000 news groups. Why don't you give me a hand. I agree with Boris information is the strongest card. If he'd be sincere and divine (which some of us strongly doubt) no harm would be done to his reputation. If he ain't, he'll have to find a new wheel before long.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 22:17:09 (EST)
From: An Enemy
Email: None
To: El Nino
Subject: My useless offer to ELK
Message:
Thanks El Nino. You're dead right in what you say. Almost half a lifetime spent following the Perfect Monster, the Fraud of the Universe and fitting into it would make people blind to the reality of the situation. They think we're out of it. We think they're out to lunch. But we have a job to do. Let's get to it!
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Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 09:35:26 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: el.org Submission Guidelines
Message:


The Elkies' Submission Guidelines

Having studied carefully the full range of censored material from the 'Lives with Knowledge' submissions we posted down below (and from others we still have on file), we are now in a position to draw some definite conclusions about the censorship policy at Enjoyinglife.org.

Unless they now start publishing stuff that might prove otherwise, here are the unofficial submission guidelines for would-be contributors:

(And in the event of forthcoming job vacancies at 'El.com', any aspiring editor would do well to brush up on these before the interview.)


  • YOU MAY speak of finding peace within, but

  • YOU MUST NOT mention Guru Maharaj ji's so-called 'Great Declaration' that he would 'establish peace on earth in [his] lifetime'.

  • YOU MAY say that 'knowledge' satisfies an inner need that religions cannot satisfy.
    BUT NOT refer to the practice of 'knowledge' as a spiritual path.
    OR remind people that Guru Maharaj ji once claimed to be the Lord incarnate.

  • YOU MAY say that Guru Maharaj ji wants to make 'knowledge' available to anybody who wants it.
    YOU MAY NOT mention Guru Maharaj ji's promise to reveal 'knowledge' to the whole world.

  • YOU MAY speak of 'respect'
    BUT NOT of 'devotion'

  • YOU MAY mention 'participation'
    BUT NOT 'service'

  • YOU MAY state that Guru Mahara ji doesn't ask for a penny from his followers
    YOU MAY NOT hint at the hidden costs and sacrifices that participation has involved in your own case (unless you have no regrets)

  • YOU MIGHT be able to talk about 'surrendering the reins of your life'.
    OR YOU MIGHT NOT be able to talk about 'surrendering the reins of your life'

  • YOU MAY thank Gumar Maroo ji for the good fortune that has followed in you life since you received 'knowledge'
    BUT DON'T YOU DARE blame him for anything that has gone wrong

  • YOU MUST NOT mention Guru Maharaj ji's physical appearance
    ESPECIALLY the fact that he was once said to inhabit a 'perfect form'

  • YOU MUST NOT mention 'darshan'
    UNLESS you call it 'time with the master'

  • YOU MAY talk about other spiritual paths / trips / cosmic experiences you have rejected
    YOU MUST NOT suggest that any of them are equally valid/invalid as Guru Maharaj ji's 'knowledge', or that other spiritual leaders can offer the same experience (or lack thereof)

  • YOU MAY say 'festival'
    YOU MAY NOT say 'Millenium '73'

  • YOU MAY mention the 'excesses' of the old days (albeit in vague terms)
    AND YOU MAY even blame the premies for their misguided enthusiasm

    BUT ON NO ACCOUNT can you even hint that the man in charge might have had anything to do with it

  • THOU SHALT NOT use the word 'perfect'
    BUT NEITHER SHALT THOU hint that Guru Maharaj ji is less than perfect (ie., by criticising, however mildy)

  • THOU SHALT NOT mention Guru Mahara ji's fabulous personal wealth, lifestyle or gross materialism

  • YOU MAY mention music at programmes
    BUT NOT the devotional songs
    AND ESPECIALLY NOT Guru Maharaj ji's semi-naked waddle-dancing

  • YOU MAY NOT mention ex-premie.org




(Finally, few more that we haven't actually tested, but we can safely assume are banned, since they are never mentioned in the, er, 'real' premie's lives.)


  • YOU MAY NOT mention: Mata ji, Bal Bagwan ji, Bob Mishler, alcohol, hash, mistresses, mala, holy breath, flute or Krishna Crown - or send the full lyrics of Arti to the 'Expressions' section.




It would, of course, be easy enough for El.org to prove us wrong in these assumptions - or for others, premie or ex, to put them to the test. Bruce: if your submission survived uncensored, your Knowledge-lite conditioning must have become second nature to you - you star pupil.



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Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 09:59:00 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: site additions? - Katie, Brian
Message:
Katie, Brian,

Don't you think perhaps the 'ELK Exposed' post along with the supporting evidence as well as this post above deserve a permanent home on the site here? Somewhere a newbie could stumble upon without too much difficulty.

That's my vote, anyway.

Thanks,
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Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 11:22:21 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: el.org Submission Guidelines
Message:
You are so right. I'm telling you the new vocabulary is so much bland jargon. It was so much more honest when premies were allowed to be crazy devotees, using the language of the psychotic but blissed.
(:
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Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 13:48:39 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Sounds like a cult to me-nt
Message:
Sorry, Scott T. ;)
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Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 20:03:14 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Exclusion from liability
Message:
Nigel, et al:

A question. I noticed the following legalese on the enjoyinglife site:
4. The contributions published on the web site are the personal expressions of the contributors. The contributors are solely responsible for any errors or omissions contained in such contributions. Furthermore the contributor guarantees us that all materials they submit to us are lawful and do not infringe on any copyright or trademark, are not libellous, and do not contain obscene content. Contributor also agrees to be solely liable for any injury or damage caused by their submission of any materials and to indemnify us for any such injury or damage.

Since this exclusion from liability seems based on the authenticity of the 'personal expressions' that are published, and the enjoyinglife site cannot, apparently, guarantee that authenticity, does that not make the exclusion from liability null and void?

-Scott
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Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 08:53:03 (EST)
From: Sir D
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Everyone
Subject: The value of friendship
Message:
Just been reading the thread way down below about friends and Maharaji's attitude towards it. Clearly, his whole destructive philosophy is tainted by his personality. Perhaps Maharaji doesn't have any close friends and therefore doesn't appreciate that normal human beings do have close relationships which are enduring and often lifelong.

Maharaji's way is to belittle normal human relationships. Does he have any close friends himself? Does Maharaji have ANY relationships with people that are on an equal footing. You know, seeing each other as equals and giving love and support when it's most needed. Presumably all the people he knows and who are in his inner circle are seen by him as his inferiors and they see him as their superior master. So he wouldn't even understand what a friend is.

His whole philosophy reflects this. How different from that other guy who some said was a master, who is believed to have said, 'Greater love has no man than to lay down his life for his friend.'

People who listen to Maharaji's satsanf are going to believe his philosophy in time and take it to heart. If not, then it will grate against their view and experience of life and they will be forced to leave him. Ironic really, that the real God should value friendship and all personal relationships including family and loved ones, tremendously. Even if you believe there is no God, the umanist view is much the same. The assertion I made some days back, that if you take the OPPOSITE meaning to Maharaji's words, that makes some sense.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 11:40:41 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Sir D
Subject: The value of friendship
Message:
So true, Sir D. I watched the video of GM that my friend sent me. He comes across as so arrogant. He makes self-referential comments that are so egotistical it's unbelievable. And all the premies in the audience sigh and laugh during those moments. In the past I would have gotten all mushy at these little in-jokes too. He also said things like 'people need to be put in their place' and that 'life is not about problem solving. SOmetimes you just need to let it all go'. Talk about taking away people's personal power!

He used a lot of guilt trip techniques, just like a fundamentalist preacher. It was very interesting, as Katie has suggested, to watch a video now.

I agree that his trip is a game of opposites. Doing the opposite of what he says is the equivalent of mental health. The more I think about it, the more psychotic it seems.

Yesterday was teacher conference day at my child's school. As my husband and I were leaving the school, we saw a mother comforting her 5th grader who had received a 'D' on his report card. The boy was devastated and the mother was comforting him saying 'honey. a D is not a failing grade, we'll talk to the teacher and work this out. We'll help you.' My husband and I were so touched that 1) the boy wasn't ashamed to cry to his mom, letting her see his sadness, and pain, and 2) that the mom was giving him a hopeful message. Now that strikes me as health, not this weird guru trip that just encourages people to bottle up their emotions, and put every complex human problem in one little simplified sterile box.

Love,
Helen
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Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 12:12:43 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: The premie response
Message:
Helen: I'll bet the typical premie response to the problem of the 5th grader would have been: 'It's just lila, honey. You are letting your nasty mind get to you. Go inside where it's real, meditate on that eternal thing (ed: you know, you're breath, the thing that ends when you die) and forget about all of this grade business.' YEAH, premies promote mental health... NOT! ;-)
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Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 12:17:08 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: The premie response
Message:
Good to hear from you Mike! I'm so glad I wasn't a parent yet when I was a premie. Parenting is the most difficult thing I've ever done, and GM's trip would have very poorly prepared me for what it really takes to be a good parent. Thank God my daughter doesn't have to get that 'stinkin' thinkin' ' put on her!
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Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 12:58:26 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Breath
Message:
Helen: You know, since I've been taking a break, I've seen some interesting posts.... Like M's discussion of 'breath.' SOOOOOO, the breath is THE THING. It's eternal? It never changes? It's a constant? What idiot would believe that???? Well, I dunno, maybe the definition of 'eternal' has changed to 'temporarily permanent'......Yeah, yeah, that must be it... Whadaya think? he he he :-)
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Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 16:04:30 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Breath
Message:
Sure am glad I got my breath, blood pumping, and other involuntary nervous system stuff going on. Otherwise I'd be dead, man. But GM does go on about that breath stuff, don't he? Like he invented it his own damn self. How does he do that? How does he manage to twist things around so that he sounds like he's the guy you should be grateful to that you're a human being. What a jerk he is.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 16:44:01 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Sir D
Subject: The value of friendship
Message:
You know what else occurred to me? Regarding the passage of time
and being around the same premies for say 20 years (JW and I
were discussing this)
I believe there are some premies, wounded by the world and brainwashed by the cult and
passively following to the point that, they BELIEVE that the best
way they can serve a friend is to encourage them to be into M.
And that if the;y do that, they need do nothing, I mean NOTHING else; such as an offer, an invitation to dinner or more importantly, a willingness to communicate when the going gets rough. i.e. - let's talk, I feel there is some conflict and I care enough about you to try to resolve it (THAT:S a big one, no?)
Instead, they decide, oh well, I will load them up on M tapes, avoid all conflict, tell them about events, that way, I am being a good friend. You know what Sir D? That is one of the saddest things of all this friendship stuff. They think they ARE being the best friend they can be.

well, next time one of them tries that crap on me, they should at least wipe off the goddamed lipstick.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 19:36:11 (EST)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Selene/Helen
Subject: emotions/helen/selene
Message:
Helen-'not this weird guru trip that just encourages people to bottle up their emotions' &
Selene-'they BELIEVE that the bestway they can serve a friend is to encourage them to be into M. And that if they do that, they need do nothing, I mean NOTHING else; such as an offer, an invitation to dinner or more importantly, a willingness to communicate when the going gets rough. i.e. - let's talk, I feel there is some conflict and Icare enough about you to try to resolve it (THAT:S a big one, no?)
Indeed yes Selene. I see that whole denial of feelings as the cap/plug, the bottom line that holds the whole marage in place. It keeps the whole premie/non-premie separation going 24/7 even when that inspiration isn't there and the doubts creep in.
=neutral trance states = anaesthetic.
Funny though to think back, how our openess, heart, sensitivity and questioning of reality models got us to k/yuchmirage in the first place and ended with us scattered directly opposite of where we started in each of those states. I feel that that emotional plugging severs that alive in the skin feeling, blocking and leaving ourselves open to the mercy of the shadow sides of openness, heart, sensitiviy and search for truth. They were the four main ones for me anyway.
One of the two main doubts I had around mr creeps was his body language, so frozen. Whenever I was in meditation I would come out feeling horny because I felt so good and loose in my body, yet here was the sauce of these wonderful experiences ageing in attitude and increasingly frozen body language, year by year. A paradox indeed!

On another tack, is it my imagination or are the women on this site getting more assertive. It's great to see, balance of polarities etc, blah, blah...
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Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 20:42:54 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Women of the forum
Message:
The women of the forum are some STRONG SISTERS, and I don't mean premie sisters--I mean SIS-TERS!

Hamzen, I agree. I think we started out with our hippie hearts in the right places but the trip derailed us off into another creepy track altogether & unbeknownst to us we were becoming frozen. GM talks so much about letting yourself grow, but his trip is all about being stuck, there's no growth, no integration, no real risks encouraged. Isure know a lot of premies who 'supplemented' the trip with a lot of therapy (including me). Coulda gone a lot faster in therapy too without the GM trip.

Love,
Helen
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Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 20:50:12 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: emotions/helen/selene
Message:
Whenever I was in meditation I would come out feeling horny because I felt so good and loose in my body, yet here was the sauce of these wonderful experiences ageing in attitude and increasingly frozen body language, year by year. A paradox indeed!

It's amazing to me the scope of experiences different people have in meditation. I pretty much felt nothing different meditating from what I feel when I'm NOT meditating, except that I have a tendency to get bored quicker, while meditating that is. Some people go on profound mystical trips, some people see all kinds of visions, but according to M all you're supposed to feel is love and joy, bliss. I'm certain you're not supposed to feel horny after you're done, not in M's world. But it does amaze me, how a simple thing like focusing on your breath can have such a wide range of effects on different people. Has anybody ever done a study on this phenomena, does anybody know? I wonder what the explanation for it is.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 20:55:45 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: horny?
Message:
If people get horny after knowledge, no wonder they are so pissed about this site-snicker!

VP
'I'd rather be sailing'
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Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 22:03:11 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: emotions/helen/selene
Message:
Us women getting MORE assertive? that's almost scary. Didn't you know I have been
called a rabid dog by a premie? And loved it.

Yes, the denial is what hurt themost, in the end. And putting it all off on me.
I went through a lot 11 months ago. I will never go to Long Beach again unless there's no other way to catch a ferry to Catalina, which i kind of like.
ps The Queen Mary is the biggest rip off hotel in existance.
And it really is haunted. or so I thought.
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Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 09:38:47 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Rabid dog
Message:
Didn't you know I have been called a rabid dog by a premie? And loved it.

I was recently called rabid, too. It felt good. Maybe all ex-premies have rabies. I even considered starting another website, much in the same line as MMT, only this one would be STRICTLY for flaming. I'd call it RabidDog.Org. What do you think? I just might do it. Then again, I just might not.
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Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 16:52:27 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Rabid dog.org
Message:
Jerry: Is there a test for joining rabid-dog.org?
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Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 19:57:00 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Rabid dog.org
Message:
No test. Just 'nice' is out. Actually, it's fair game. It would be a forum where there would be no holds barred. If somebody says something you'd like to snap at, by all means, please do. It's encouraged, four letter words, un-politically correctness, the only thing that I'd ban is if you were so much of an asshole that even MY stomach would turn. You'd have to go a long way before that happens. Premies and new-agers, especially, would be invited to get the shit kicked out of them, if they dare. The very first thread would be something like, oh, say, 'Maharaji eats big dick', and we'd just take it from there. Whaddya think? Should I go for it, or is it too extreme? Suggestions are welcome. If I don't like them, well, in the spirit of Rabid Dog, fuck you, keep your suggestions to yourself, I don't care that I asked for them.
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Date: Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 23:05:27 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Jerry
Subject: Rabid dog.org
Message:
Dear Jerry,
I'd post under a pseudo name. It could be very good for me! Help me bring out my inner bitch!
Love,
Robyn
Thought maybe I should leave off the 'love' but know you like it and this isn't rabid dog.org :)
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Date: Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 16:14:30 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: I think I've created a monster
Message:
Y'know, Robyn, I think a lot of people would really get into such a website. There is an inner bitch in all of us, even guys (or would that be an inner prick). It probably could serve as a harmless outlet for penned up frustrations, but then, we already have ex-premie.org for that, don't we? I doubt I'm really going to start such a website. I just had a lot of fun toying around with the idea.
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Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 17:55:42 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Rabid dog grrrlllll
Message:
if you do start it, I am there! ggrrrr
I can be really mean. Also capable of the dreaded
'n' word too. (that's what premies call anything
they don't like that they read here - negative)
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Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 20:33:42 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Amen, sister (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 22:31:37 (EST)
From: AE
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Maharaji's new Homepage here
Message:
If you want to see what Maharaji really thinks about premies, knowledge and his own divinity have a look at his new homepage.

Go to Maharaji's Homepage
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Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 06:43:44 (EST)
From: TD
Email: None
To: AE
Subject: Maharaji's new Homepage here
Message:
Well, it's about bloody time! Thanks AE for pointing out this 'site' - I'm sure the Big M feels much better to have come out and told it how it is - must be such a relief for him. Have enjoyinglife.org set up a permanent link yet?

Do you think he might offer a free pair of boxer shorts advertising this site in the next Visions International catalogue?

Regards, TD
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Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 10:03:40 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: Maharaji's new Homepage here
Message:
Very clever. Finally, the Hamster has learned to speak in clear, simple, short, crisp phrases. Good work.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 11:12:22 (EST)
From: srb
Email: None
To: AE
Subject: Maharaji's new Homepage here
Message:
Great one AE!
any info on the hash?
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Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 11:52:45 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: AE
Subject: Maharaji's new Homepage here
Message:
Fabulous! I love it! The photos are a great touch. They drive home the fact that one of his designer outfits would pay my entire month's mortage. He looks more & more like some rich celebrity to me. I'm telling you the whole appeal has to do with those well-cut suits!!!!!
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Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 12:25:33 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: AE
Subject: Maharaji's new Homepage here
Message:
Very good, and the pictures are great. Can you ask Brian to make a link to this page from the website? We can emphasize that it's satire, but there is a helluva lot of truth in it if you ask me.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 19:39:21 (EST)
From: AE
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Maharaji's new Homepage here
Message:
Glad you like it, all. Those were the good pictures. Wait until you see the bad ones with more divine thoughts from the master. Do you think Maharaji will appreciate this effort I am putting in on his behalf?
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Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 21:47:30 (EST)
From: RT
Email: None
To: AE
Subject: Maharaji's new Om page
Message:
AE nice work>..do send a print out to Elan Vital, Visions, the local community organizer, the IRS and Kenneth Starr.

RATING:
**** (4 techniques out of 5 or is it 9?)

RT
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Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 13:13:14 (EST)
From: D
Email: None
To: AE
Subject: Maharaji's new Homepage here
Message:
Haven't been here for months and the first thing I read is what is on your site....very well done,thank you.
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Date: Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 21:27:56 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Bruce
Subject: Bruce's Honesty
Message:
>Thanks for showing the world your real natures.

>By posting fraudulent posts on the Net, you have proven to the world that you are

>DECEITFUL, LYING, CONSPIRING, FRAUDS


See what happens when you rub both those brain cells together, Bruce? I mean, yesterday you were nothing. Today you have written this daring expose (pronounced 'exposay') of the ex-premies and finally the world can see what they're really like. Congratulations! Just don't be a plonker all your life. OK?

If you hadn't noticed, we already told the world exactly what we have done, and I think people will judge for themselves who the 'conspiring frauds' are. Our own limited use of deception was for a very specific purpose, and we have come clean about it. When are your gurunoid-lickspittles going to do likewise?

I don't want to elevate this little stunt into inappropriately exalted realms, but there are precendents, you know, both in investigative journalism and in social research. In the case of journalism, no court outside of maybe Baghdad is going to prosecute a newspaper that 'goes undercover' to obtain a story that is in the public interest - provided they commit no serious breach of the law when doing so.

My own conscience is clean, here. (Technically we have breached El-org's copyright by reproducing our own words without their permission - hee-hee - but it will be up to them to press charges. Do you think there is any chance they will do that? Please, please...) I have not assumed the identity of any living person. I have not defamed or lied about any living person. I have invaded nobody's privacy and I have not threatened anybody.

In the case of research, ethical guidelines in the social sciences permit deception provided that (1) you have no other way of obtaining your data, and (2) you admit the deception afterwards and explain why it was used. As to (1), Jim invited El-org to explain their policy on censorship, and they declined to comment, so NO, we had no other way of getting to the facts, and (2) we have explained everything.

Around last Christmas, you may not remember, one of the contributors to the Elk site by the name of Mili used to post his apoplectic rants to the forerunner of this forum. At the same as availing himself of this opportunity (an oppoprtunity that was denied him by PAM, I might add), he was doing everything within his power to get the forum closed down. His method: petitioning Usenet about the 'persecution' of a 'minority religious group' that he said was going on here. He accompanied this complaint with a long list of geuine email addresses of people who ostensibly backed him in his campaign. He neither informed his co-plaintiffs of what he was doing nor sought permission from them to use their emails (which by chance happened to include Katie's).

Usenet's reply to Mili was brief, but eloquent: 'Clueless fucking troll'. But perhaps Mili's approach is closer to your idea of integrity?


>Not to mention incredibly stupid. Who masterminded this debacle? Guru Jim I suppose.

No Bruce. I did. (Though Jim's creative and organisational input was very important, as were those of JW and TD.) So I suppose that makes me the incredibly stupid one. Coming from you, I think I'll take that as a compliment.


>So, a Maharaji friendly website editored material which was deliberately written by yourselves >knowing full well that it would not be acceptable. Big deal!


Listen you prize moron. Of course editors edit. Editing is what editors do. That's why they're called editors. Both my parents were journalists, and my father was a sub-editor. Nothing grand - just small-town provincial stuff - but they knew a few things about editing, and I also know that never in a million years would my dad have deliberately changed other people's words - without their consent. And if his own editor had ever required him to do anything of the kind he would certainly have refused and, if pressed, would have resigned.

What these people are doing is not just making selective omissions - which all editors do to some extent. They are putting words into other people's mouths that change the message beyond recognition.

Have you read all these submissions? Look again at what they did to Carl Beringer's post. The changes they made to the last couple of paragraphs were not simply a case of removing what was unacceptable.

As Jim put it: in the world of real publications, these people would be finished. Totally.

The point is not whether Carl is a real person; the point is the Elks believed him to be a real person. And thus we can see the high-handed contempt with which they treat real people.

You were arguing with Golden Oldie that the enjoyinglife posts were not censored. We have shown you that they most certainly are.


>Should a symphony orchestra allow an idiot with a cowhorn to play along, even if he means well?


Stupid analogy.


>Your deceit has backfired. You lose Jim. Maybe one or two or your unquestioning devotees will start to >wonder about YOU over this.


Dear God, Bruce. Are you completely insane - or was that wit, or something? Don't try so hard. You're quite funny enough already.


>And which one of you is Golden Oldie?

None of us.


>YOUR STUPIDITY HAS MADE IT IMPOSSIBLE FOR HONEST COMMUNICATION ON THE NET. Think >about it, you brainless self appointed defenders of truth and honesty.

>What a bunch of hypocrites you are.!


I think we can let others judge for themselves, don't you?

But remember, honest communication is tolerated around here - expressing any point of view you care to mention and your words will not be tampered with. Funny I don't see anybody queueing up to endorse your position here, Bruce. Perhaps, right now, you're an additional embarrassment the hamster could do without.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 22:16:58 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Nigel
Subject: Nigel's Honesty
Message:
Dear Nigel,
You are a man of high integrity and a genteel nature, IMHO, and a man of science, damn you've got it all haven't you! :) I and most know why you orchestrated this test of enjoyinglife...., because there is no excuse for the bm's site's censorship and it needed to be shown for what it is.
I know you don't take Bruce's crazy insults to heart but thought you'd appreciate a heart felt complement. Also quite the imaginative writer!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 03:37:56 (EST)
From: Bruce
Email: freedom@universal.net au
To: Nigel
Subject: Cheat and Deceit
Message:
Nigel,

You display your own ignorance by assuming I don't recognise the point you are trying to make about ELK's tampering with
posts.You exaggerate the effect of it though.

I wrote the post basically to point out to you people something which pisses me off, namely deliberate deception on your part.

Premies are not deliberately trying to deceive any of you so called ex-premies.

Premies are not making 'unofficial' ex-premie websites, or making 'friends of ex-premie websites', are they?

You argue long and eloquently that your deception was 'justified'.

This is a common occurence in our increasingly corrupted world.

Its part of the darkness of our times.

Deception is deception. Cheat and deceit is cheat and deceit.

You imagine you see these things in Maharaji. You are looking into a mirror.

A quote from Krishna.
To receive this Knowledge, one must approach the Living Master of the time, with the heart of a child, free of cheat and deceit

Would you qualify, Nigel?

Also, on point about writing my story to ELK, well actually I have posted something there. and it was NOT altered.

Its entitled 'Afternoon tea at Amaroo ' and its in the Whats happening news section. I've noticed Jim has not pasted it here to be subject to ridicule. Maybe because he knows deep down, that he can't, and maybe its because it would show up the myth perpetuated here that Maharaji is aloof from his premies and never gives them the chance to question him freely.

Regards,
Bruce
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Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 03:42:59 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Bruce
Subject: About Cheat and Deceit!
Message:
To receive this Knowledge, one must approach the Living Master of the time, with the heart of a child, free of cheat and deceit

Should also the so-called 'perfect master' be free from cheat & deceit?

The story doesn't say ....
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Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 05:29:42 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Bruce
Subject: No exaggeration, Bruce
Message:
[MAY EVERYBODY ELSE BE SO LUCKY, WHICHEVER PATH THEY CHOOSE TO GET
THEM THERE. I AM SURE IT DOESN'T REALLY MATTER WHO YOU FOLLOW - IF
ANYONE - BUT FOR ME IT HAPPENED TO BE MAHARAJI WHO GAVE THE GIFT.] My
Dad says it's just some kind of self-hypnosis you could find in a book, [AND I THINK HE'S
PROBABLY RIGHT. BUT WHO CARES? Was changed to: 'But Maharaj ji showed me how to and
it's wonderful'] (!!!!!)

>>>>>>>
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Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 10:07:19 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Bruce
Subject: Cheat and Deceit
Message:
Well Bruce, I DID APPROACH that lump of useless flesh that you worship with an open heart and without deceipt! I asked for and was PROMISED the 'Knowledge.' I 'received' nothing and gave EVERYTHING! I think that it is pretty obvious that the ORIGINAL DECEIPT was committed by that money-grubbing pig that you call YOUR LORD! He is an absolute, total and complete fraud that has not one single redeeming quality. Is this clear enough for you, pea-brain? Now PROVE me wrong, dimwit! Don't use useless parrot-like platitudes and 'learned' responses! I want PROOF, ABSOLUTE PROOF, UNDENIABLE PROOF that he isn't the ORIGINAL DECEIVER and that you aren't his WILLING ACCOMPLICE..... After 25 years, I think that this is a reasonable request: It's been long enough!
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Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 10:45:50 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: accuracy
Message:
Actually, Bruce, I think the phrase was 'without receipt'. Maharaji, if my memory serves me right, used to ask us to express our gratitude to him without receipt. I've got no idea what that was about. Just trying to keep the record straight, that's all.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 11:50:16 (EST)
From: El Nino
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: accuracy
Message:
Your long lost friend asked me to wish you happy H for him. He's left town for good.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 10:41:49 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bruce
Subject: Neat defeat
Message:
You display your own ignorance by assuming I don't recognise the point you are trying to make about ELK's tampering with
posts.


Bruce, this is yet another thoughtless comment of yours. Have you even once even slightly admitted that we'd made any point at all about ELK's tampering? No. So why should anyone assume that you recognize anything? Stupid, stupid, STUPID!! Really, in or out of the cult, this was a stupid thing to say.

First, admit the point. THEN, get credit for doing so. That's how it works, bud.

You exaggerate the effect of it though.

Really? Hmm, maybe you're right. To tell you the truth, I've got no idea WHAT the effect of this evidence is now or will be in the future. Do you? Tell us about it. Just saying we exaggerate that effect without saying how or how much is just another empty statement. Come on, tell us what YOU think the impact will be of premies realizing they can't trust anything they read on ELK as being original, honest expression?

I wrote the post basically to point out to you people something which pisses me off, namely deliberate deception on your part.

Bruce, again you miss the point. Oh you are so tiresome! No one here's claiming saintly virtue. No one here's asking anyone to follow their so-called 'spiritual guidance'. We're just a bunch of plain, old people who're pissed of with a fake Lord of the Universe. Proving we are very imperfect people does nothing to diminish our argument that Maharaji is a very imperfect person too.

Premies are not deliberately trying to deceive any of you so called ex-premies.

No? What do you call the tampering then? Look, Nigel gave you one example, I'll give you another, this time from one of my fake posts:

'Something special happens when my colleague asks me how I could [WORSHIP MY MASTER became ' follow my master.'] the way I do. I've had Hindu, Buddhist and Christian friends all ask me [THE SAME QUESTION, 'YOU MAKE IT SOUND LIKE YOUR TEACHER IS KRISHNA (OR BUDDHA OR JESUS) HIMSELF.' became ' this question.']

[THAT'S WHEN I JUST SMILE AND FEEL THE GRACE. MAHARAJI TAUGHT US LONG AGO THERE'S NO POINT ANSWERING THAT QUESTION. became 'I always reply'] 'By his fruits ye shall know Him', right?'

See what they did here? 'Goldberg' said that people ask him about making his master sound like Krishna etc. That's what 'Goldberg' said. But they twist his words around to make it appear that people simply ask him how he could 'follow' his master the way he does.

For what's worth, THEY might as well have made up Mr. Goldberg! Look, I was just trying to prove a point. Once the point was made I was happy to come clean. These guys, on the other hand, were trying to completely take over the 'life' of someone they thought was an acutal human being. And to what end? To fool a whole lot of other human beings, namely anyone reading their product.

Again, if you 'got the point' so well I'd like to hear you comment on it. Was this deception on THEIR PART (forget about us for a second) morally justified? Go on, tell us about it.

Premies are not making 'unofficial' ex-premie websites, or making 'friends of ex-premie websites', are they?

Again, you come across as a little slow here. Bruce, when David started his premie page he admitted that he started it. No one has to post there if they don't want. Where's the deception? You're just pulling at straws here. I think it's only your thick-headedness that lets you continue like this. Anyone reading you realizes, I'm sure, how little water any of your 'arguments' hold.

And again, here's the 'kid challenge': I dare you to bring your kids here and show them how their father argues. Assuming you have children, Bruce, I'd wager a lot of money they'd be ashamed at you.

You argue long and eloquently that your deception was 'justified'.

This is a common occurence in our increasingly corrupted world.

Its part of the darkness of our times.

Deception is deception. Cheat and deceit is cheat and deceit.


No, Bruce, that's hardly the case. Would you say that every last 'sting' or undercover operation, every last police wiretap, every last investigative report is 'part of the darkness of our time'? I think this goes back to the point you want us to assume you get. Go ahead, fella, spell it out. What point HAVE we made concerning the tampering over on ELK?

Then question two: Is that a valid point to BE made?

Then number three: How else could we have made it?

Finally four: what do you think about the fact we've proven?

You imagine you see these things in Maharaji. You are looking into a mirror.

How absolutely dumb you are! If I walk in on Maharaji dallying with his mistress for example -- just for argument's sake, and I blurt out 'hey, you're cheating on your wife! -- again, just for argument's sake, does that make ME unfaithful because I've caught Maharaji with his pants down? Is every cop who busts a murderer guilty of murder? When a store detective confronts someone for shoplifting, are they also guilty of shoplifting?

Bring us your kids, Bruce!

A quote from Krishna.
To receive this Knowledge, one must approach the Living Master of the time, with the heart of a child, free of cheat and deceit


Oh you're such an idiot! Who gives aflying fuck about some antique Hindu God? Why don't you start spouting off about Ganesh the elephant god while you're at it? By the way, children are the ones who ask embarrasing questions, last time I looked. ELK is more like a funeral parlour than a children's play room, for what THAT's worth.

Would you qualify, Nigel?

Relevance?

Also, on point about writing my story to ELK, well actually I have posted something there. and it was NOT altered.

Why not post your life story, though? That was the question. You just posted this little nothing. Where's your life story, Bruce?

Its entitled 'Afternoon tea at Amaroo ' and its in the Whats happening news section. I've noticed Jim has not pasted it here to be subject to ridicule. Maybe because he knows deep down, that he can't, and maybe its because it would show up the myth perpetuated here that Maharaji is aloof from his premies and never gives them the chance to question him freely.

Wrong! I DID ridicule the piss otu of it. You just weren't looking. What you wrote was this:

'It's an ill wind that blows nobody any good, they say. The typhoon in the Western Pacific resulted in Maharaji staying even longer here in Australia, and for me and the hundred or so people with Knowledge who were in the right place at the right time, a special gift: the presence of our master.

Maharaji was invited to share afternoon tea with us, outside on the grass made richly green by the rains. We sat waiting, forgetting our tea, becoming silent, being drawn into that deep, sweet, ever so sweet, feeling that announces his coming.

He came, sat with us, made jokes, and answered questions. As he drank tea and laughed with us, whatever storms may have been there for us were blown away, replaced by a calm so rich, so joyful.

Words can't describe it, but it's nice to try!'

All it shows is that you're pie-eyed for Popeye. Sure I ridiculed this, Bruce. Frankly, I'm a little hurt that you ignored me on this one.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 11:19:16 (EST)
From: srb
Email: None
To: Bruce
Subject: Cheat and Deceit
Message:
Bruce, that qoute is not true.

Even prem rawat said last year that he himself doesn't
believe the story of 'kill them all' by krishna and said
it really meant 'kill your concepts of everyone and
your societal associations with them'--my wording on his
exact comment.
YOU saw that video didn't you?
It was a big point for him and he repeated it throughout
the speech in different ways.

prem rawat does not enshrine the krishna religious story
at all and you shouldn't either.
Things have to stand on thier own merit and not because of
some inaccurately translated really old comment by
god knows who.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 11:27:58 (EST)
From: El Nino
Email: None
To: Bruce
Subject: Secets and lies (Cheat and dec
Message:
First, blame everything on El Nino. An then some.
Maybe it ain't nice to question and criticize. You're right. On the other hand (remember, right is right and left is wrong) it ain't nice to hide behind secrets and lies. If the Perfect hamster wants us to ush-up, it could be some of this is disturbingly true. Otherwise, why would he fear speech? Tell me. I think he don't want premies to realize the king is naked.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 13:40:39 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Bruce
Subject: Deceiving their readership
Message:
Premies are not deliberately trying to deceive any of you so called ex-premies

They may not have been trying to deceive us, but the guy(s) who edited the entries on ELK are trying to deceive their readership. Maybe deceive is too strong a word in your opinion. Okay, at the very least, they are trying to keep their readership in the dark about certain facts. If this weren't the case, they would let stories stand as is with editorial clean up only in grammar, spelling and punctuation.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 05:53:17 (EST)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Nigel, you ARE brilliant!
Message:
This is a fantastic post. I can't think of much more to say other than 'Pure Dead Brilliant' (with an imitation Scottish brogue for effect).

Regards, TD
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Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 09:58:04 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: To: NIGEL
Message:
Nigel: That 'idea' was great, the execution of the idea was great and the results were great! What more could one ask for? I'm PROUD to be an ex-premie! BTW, if you ever again begin to think that your 'mind' is a bit on the fritz, I think we can safely say that 'it' has recovered fully from the M-influence.... YOU ARE THE BEST! Your response to Bruce's diatribe proves it! :-)
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Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 21:57:21 (EST)
From: Willi Kranz
Email: gothman@aol.com
To: Mike/ Roby/Eb/Td/Helen
Subject: Mike/ Robyn/Eb/Td/Helen..
Message:
I am Willi Kranz and these my greetings to you. Nigel is in the krankenhaus with a plague of boils but I did warn him so, and my friend Gunther did the same thing before. Gunther is so wise in spite that he is a crazy man who saw the psychiatric but isn't almost better yet.

But Nigel is a good guy and his pain is not so bad so it is a mercy. But he is crazy too because he will not listen to the Guru Maharaj ji as long as necessary. Also he says that punk is better than Sabbath and, you will not believe that this is quite possible, also making heavier riffs than the Scorpions. That is really crazy for sure. I will also transmit his greetings electronically which he sends with gratifications from his heart to people who sent kindly wordings in his respect.

I must first tell to Robyn (who goes hop hop hopping along, no? - only kidding. ha ha!) that Nigel thinks that you are the sweetest pie possible. You made him a joke that he was the man who had everything. Not so! I know these things. He does not have the looks and he does not have the money. Also he does not have the grace of the Guru Maharaj ji any more, so now he is in receipt of a plague of boils. Gunther says that this will manifest when you do not follow agya correctly. This is the proof of the pudding!

Now I must talk to Mike. Hiya! You are one heck of a swell fellah! We have many US militaries in our beautiful landscapes and they are swell fellahs also sometimes, but their aeroplanes are very noisy. It was so beautiful when they did not bomb Heidelberg in the war because they wanted to come and make some visits there afterwards. That is cool. Now they have many dollars for spending and they are drinking their Budweisers and pulling all our freaky chicks. But that's really OK I guess. But then you are telling us that Nigel's mind goes sometimes 'on the Fritz' . It feels hurtful to me because you are laughing about my countrymen. We are not all the hun you know! But the war was surely a shameful thing and it is better you stop talking about it. Only kidding! I love the way you guys are always fooling around. That's me too!

I must speak also to other ones who are making some warm regards for Nigel that make his cheeks go pink. I should not say this, perhaps, but Nigel said to me 'eb should buy some plastic strumpfenhosen.' I said to him 'you cannot say this thing to a beautiful lady. Incontinence is quite a problem in some instances'. He said 'No, of course not'. So I will not mix myself up anywhere around this impoliteness. Hello Mrs TD. I didn't know they had Scotsmen in Australia. That is so funny to me. And Mrs Helen. You aren't really dying I know. I get it. It was a figure of speech, no?. Ha ha! We have them in Germany also, but not Scotsmen.

Gunther says that you all love the Guru Maharaj ji still because you spend your hobby time talking about him.

Yours,
Willi
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Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 23:01:41 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Willi Kranz/Nigel
Subject: Stop, Nigel, Stop! Please...
Message:
Peter and I are laughing so hard that we are in grave danger of needing some plastic strumpenhosen immediately. How do you think of this stuff! Have you ever thought of writing 'The Willi Kranz Diaries'?

In awe and admiration,
Katie

P.S. If I weren't married, I'd ask Willi what he was doing Saturday night (as long as he didn't bring Gunther along). He's my kind of guy.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 23:17:29 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Willi Kranz
Subject: You're killing me again
Message:
Dear Willi,

You are too funny, my belly will bust like the Hindenburg if you make one more funny joke like that! I'm warning you now, please, I am under strict orders to stop reading this Forum because it is giving me--how you say--I overslept myself this morning from staying up reading these comical computer games.
Really, I am peeing myself too, send me some stumfenhosen also.
WIlli you must become a regular character here, please
Mrs Helen
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Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 23:42:37 (EST)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Willi Kranz
Subject: You No.1 crazy funny guy Willi
Message:
Danke!
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Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 04:46:07 (EST)
From: Willi Kranz
Email: gothman@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Willi Kranz
Subject: email mistake
Message:
I am really the dumbkopf. Gunther tells me perhaps 'gothman at aol.com' is the mailbox of somebody else. Please never use it, my friends because of the netiquette.

On Saturday night I will be in meditation. Then I go out and have three steins of the wheat beer before the gig. We are called 'Blisskid' and are the heaviest band happening anywhere around Bad Friedrichshall. We are so far out you would surely love our music which is not too much about the Guru Maharaj ji. Next week we are playing in Unterschnatterbach. This will be our big break, perhaps.

And now I must go. Auf wiedersehen. Willi
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Date: Fri, Nov 20, 1998 at 10:39:42 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Willi Kranz
Subject: Mike/ Robyn/Eb/Td/Helen..
Message:
Uncle Willi: You are one funny guy. Nigel, if I'm ever in Europe, I REALLY DO want to meet you. I think it will be a meeting that I'll never forget! he he he. :-)
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Date: Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 22:37:30 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Willi Kranz
Subject: Mike/ Robyn/Eb/Td/Helen..
Message:
Dear, dear Willi,
I hope you are helping Nigel build that larger house as he surley needs a castle by now! :)
Love you Nigel, boils and all!
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 11:47:27 (EST)
From: Al Nino
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Bruce's Honesty
Message:
Jesus Murphy. The guy isn't connected with that most beautiful place inside. He must be in his cotton-picking mind. Give him a break before he drives himself into a wall. I can't beleive this. His blood pressure must be higher than the Dow-Jones was last April. He's reacting like a catholic who'd learn Jesus was a transvestite lesbian. Shit happens, I agree, but this is beyond shit. It his deep black Holy shit.
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Date: Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 15:34:24 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Some thoughts on editing
Message:
I don't know if the people who run the enjoyinglife site read this site, but I have some suggestions for them regarding editing (I have a bad habit of giving unsolicited advice, so if it's unwelcome, please disregard it). This is not meant to be satiric or unkind - it is just a suggestion.

I do free-lance writing and editing, and I also write and edit material for the ex-premie website. I have edited some Journeys entries - mostly for punctuation, and clarity, but occasionally for length. I always send the edited version back to the submitter to make sure that it's OK with them and that I didn't distort what they were saying. I do this professionally too, if the item that I am editing is going to be published under someone else's name.

I have found that when editing for clarity, it may be necessary to add a sentence here or there. I think this is one of the hardest things to do, and clearly, in the examples below, sentences were added that did change the original meaning of what the sender intended. This is a big problem - basically the editor is then becoming a co-author and should be listed as such. When I write something and know that it is going to be heavily edited without my final approval, I ask that my name not appear as the author.

So my suggestion is that you send the edited 'Lives' entries back to the submitters for approval (maybe you are already doing this?). Personally, I wouldn't like to have my words changed or sentences omitted as you've done in the entries below, and I think that a lot of other people might feel the same way. Also, I think this would help with the false submission problem - if the person approves it before publication, then they've got nothing to gripe about.

Respectfully,
Katie
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Date: Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 17:13:03 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Katie, This Is Satire, Right?
Message:
But very well done.
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Date: Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 17:20:25 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: It really isn't!
Message:
Honestly. I'm not very good at satire, anyway. I just wanted to make a point. Maybe I'm just being naive here.
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Date: Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 17:35:23 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: It really isn't!
Message:
No, they are really good points. It's just that in comparison to what enjoyinglife actually did, how they didn't do ANYTHING like you suggest, it sounds like satire. You may be better at satire than you think!!!
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Date: Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 17:43:06 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: It really isn't!
Message:
Yeah, I think my gene for giving unsolicited advice got out of hand there...oh well.
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Date: Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 18:58:40 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: It really isn't!
Message:
Katie: Isn't there a law against 'soliciting?' So it's just as well that your advice is 'un-solicited'..... he he he. ;-)
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Date: Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 19:41:05 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Gee Mike...
Message:
So glad you're back...or I thought I was, anyway! Sheesh... :)
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Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 08:07:33 (EST)
From: op
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Amtext revisted
Message:
Hi Katie:

I was trying to answer your post about Amtext, and while I was doing so it got derailed to the inactive side. So, here is my response, even though it's obviously on the wrong thread now.

A few minor corrections:

Amtext does not sell the books. The books are sent directly to wholesalers who do sell them. These wholesalers are not premies and are not related to EV in any way.

Amtext is not the only book-buying business, nor are all those associated with Amtext premies. The major publishers are quite aware of these businesses - they see them as a threat but only as used book providers, meaning that they take away a small amount of the profit the PUBLISHERS (not the authors) make. That high price of textbooks you mention is threatened by the re-sellers.

(BTW, if you know textbook authors, you also know that they are forced to revise their books yearly [2nd, 3rd, 4th editions ad nauseum] for very little extra money simply so that the publishers can sell a new edition to students at $70 or thereabouts a shot. Often these new editions have two or three pages worth of changes - e.g., new problems in a math book, or chapter 4 becomes chapter 6 - making the old edition unusable for students, who MUST fork out full price rather than use a recycled text.)

There is nothing illegal in the practice of book-buying and re-selling, because all sample copies are sold as used. Whether you think it is ethical could be a matter for debate - I've looked at it both ways, but I'll keep my current opinion to myself for now.

Amtext has a few full-time employees who run the office and are paid fair market wages. Those who do the book-buying are independent contractors and make their money the way all salespeople do: from commissions paid per item sold. There is no such thing as unpaid volunteers - this is strictly a business.

Hope this clarifies it a bit.
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Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 13:28:21 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: op
Subject: Amtext revisited
Message:
Hi op -
Since I have no knowledge of Amtext apart from what I've heard, I won't comment on your comments. Your version does disagree with what Jean-Michel (and others) have described, and that's where I got my information from.

Regards,
Katie

P.S. I will change the title on your original post, in case someone else who knows more than I do wants to comment here.
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Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 13:40:13 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Amtext revisited
Message:
I was contacted by the guy who started Amtext. He explained that when he got this idea going he'd just moved out of the ashram and thought it'd be a good source of income for himself and some other premies in his community. He got them involved but, after a while, when the premie bearucrats saw how profitable it was, they simply squeezed him out and ripped it off. Boy is he angry!

Don't forget, Mike Donner also made his little fortune scamming this operation before he split. I don't know what he was thinking when he told me this over dinner. As if I'd be impressed or something.

Anyway, perhaps there's some sort of investigation under way. Who knows, eh?
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Date: Sat, Nov 21, 1998 at 21:11:44 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: op
Subject: Exactly!
Message:
- this is strictly a business.

No more, no less. The whole stinking cult.
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Date: Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 11:04:09 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: My suggestion for ELK
Message:
I sent them this:

'Well, you guys, I checked this morning to see if you'd apologized yet for deceiving everyone and, lo and behold, nothing. At first this surprised me and then I thought (because I'm allowed to do that) 'hey, don't forget who these guys are following the most evasive coward of them all.' I mean, we know what Maharaji would do, don't we? He explained his policy in India. Shut up and pretend nothing happened. Criticism is made to be ignored, right?

So here's my suggestion. If and when you get any flack at all from Maharaji's people about this embarrassment, ignore it! Tell them to fuck off or something. Remind Maharaji that you're doing this for free and that if he's so smart he can do his own fucking web page. If it's any help I bet Brian and Katie would be glad to back you up on this. It's easy for others to carp and complain from the sidelines but when you're the ones that have to actually do all the work, make all the editorial decisions, etc., well that's a horse of a different colour, isn't it? Yeah, I'm sure you can get a little letter or something from Brian to that effect.

Really, you guys were just trying to serve, isn't that so? (Sorry, I mean 'help'). It's not your fault that Maharaji's formed his cult the way he has. You just happen to be stuck in it. No, I'd just tell him to fuck off or something if he gives you any flack. Remind him to be grateful for his breath. Tell him that if he REALLY wants to help he can send you a check. Hell, I bet Brian could use a little finanical help too, if you're asking.

Oh, before I forget, your latest way of categorizing the 'lives' entries by day now is pretty unnecessarily awkward, don't you think? Yeah, I know you're nervous and want to do something to show you're still in control but really, having to go through all those clicks to do what? Just to read another one of your OWN fake entries (fake in the sense that if you don't actually censor them, you've created such a phony atmosphere of self-censorship you might as well write all these stupid testimonials anyway.)? No, that's a little too much clicking for me.

In fact, to tell you the truth, I'm beginning to get just a tad bored with all those testimonials. Not to say they're not all exciting and REAL and everything. I don't know. Maybe it's just me. I mean, I COULD keep popping in to see if you've found more fakes yet but hell, even that gets old after a while. And you all won't talk with us. Hey, fellas, YOU'RE NO FUN ANYMORE!

Okay, I'm rambling. Time to go. Just remember, don't let him push you around. You're volunteers, remember?

Love you all,

Jim'
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Date: Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 11:23:53 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: P.S.
Message:
'I can't help but notice you're still 'getting used to working with the format' and all that and haven't gotten your 'Conversations' page up yet. There, too, I'm sure Brian and Katie would be more than happy to help you get started. Hey, you might even ask Mili or Harlan (the guys who hosted the last premie forum before it was shut down by PAM). Hell, if you don't ask, how can anyone help?

Oh, by the way, if you're interested in finding some more of the fake posts, you might want to rent a mnd detector. MIND DETECTOR! Get it?? Yuck , yuck, yuck!! Pretty funny, eh? Mind Detector!

Sorry, that was a really dumb joke. Please, if you ever publish any of these letters, do me a favour and censor that, will ya? Thanks.'
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Date: Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 14:37:51 (EST)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: P.S.
Message:
Jim,
you're a gem.

On that post I could visualize an absolutely wicked smile and body language to go with....

luv ya

ham

In the previous posting you apologised for rambling. I don't remember you ever rambling in any post of yours I've read. I find what you class as your 'rambling' mode just as informative as your more clinical posts, maybe in some ways more informative because they give the background flavour, fill-out, enrich.....
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Date: Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 21:23:44 (EST)
From: Orlando
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: gloating
Message:
you guys are really overdoing it....
i do not want to hurt your feelings or restrain your juvenile enthousiasm about your prank...but really what exactly is the big deal here?
Editing???? wow....what a concept....every newspaper on earth does it....not just Pravda ;)
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Date: Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 21:38:22 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Disneyworld
Subject: gloating
Message:
Newspapers cannot legally do what El.org do, at least not in the UK.

See Katie's post on editing above, or mine to Bruce above Katie's. This is about integrity, honesty and credibilty, not editing, per se.
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Date: Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 21:43:40 (EST)
From: Orlando
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: gloating
Message:
integrity....honesty....credibility...
did you have this in mind when you made up your little stories for the ELK site?
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Date: Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 21:51:17 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: gloating
Message:
Yawn... I refer you again to my post at the top. I've nothing more to add.
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Date: Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 22:02:34 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: yep
Message:
integrity....honesty....credibility...
did you have this in mind when you made up your little stories for the ELK site?


Yes, that's it exactly.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 10:22:38 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: gloating
Message:
Orlando: You've got it exactly backwards.... It was done to expose the lack of honesty, lack of integrity and lack of credibility displayed by the EL site. No one, not a single person, not a single entity has the right to change MY words, or the meaning thereof, without asking my permission. No one, on this site or anywhere else that I've posted, edits what I say. I think that I can safely say that there are a few folks here that vehemently disagree with me on a number of topics, but NOT ONE OF THEM has ever attempted to change my words.... EVER! So which site do YOU believe has has integrity, credibility and honesty now? Changing those words and meanings was UNCONSCIONABLE! It was the act of a draconian, thought-control driven, brainwashed cult member(s) and approved of by M himself (based upon his approval of the site and its precepts... ALL OF THEM!) Did M say, 'OK, use the site, but don't change anyone's words' or anything like that? NOPE! CASE CLOSED!
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Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 15:27:46 (EST)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: gloating
Message:
Mike, aren't you forgetting one thing, we're talking lord of the universe here and he has his lila to perform. Can you imagine how tricky it must be, being god in a materialist age watching democracy and human rights closing your space down?
Even god's got to go underground and become devious nowadays to survive.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 11:53:43 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: gloating
Message:
Newspapers, at least in free societies, edit letters and such to make for more readable copy, not to make your submission more suitable for propaganda such as is done at EL.
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Date: Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 09:03:12 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: In Defense of (Some) Premies
Message:
Well, it's clear. The enjoyinglife.org site is a fraud. It's a lie, like so much of Maharaji's world. It exists as a paper-thin representation of an illusion. (Sorry for that sentence, guys.)

But I wanted to make one point that I think not all premies were supportive of enjoyinglife.org in the first place. I noticed, for example, that premies were not rushing to post their 'lives' there. [ In fact, I know personally that a significant number of the entries were actually ex-premies.] I have scanned the names listed on that site and I recognize maybe two or three of them, despite the fact that I personally am aware of a good number of premies with computer access who surely know about the site. So, why aren't they posting their 'lives' there?

Frankly, I think some premies are incredibly embarrassed by enjoyinglife.org. and have been since it started. Maybe they are even more embarrassed now. And a couple of premies who I knew from the 70s have admitted to me that a lot of coverup goes on in the premie world, for reasons they can't really explain. The most they can say is that the premies 'think' that's what Maharaji wants. And they admit they take those cues from him directly.

For example they cringe at the revisionistt, false idea that all the weird stuff that went on in the 70s in the cult were due to the PREMIES and NOT due to Maharaji. They know that isn't true, and resent the revisionism of EV, and enjoyinglife.org.

They don't like it, but they think there is nothing they can do about it. And the group pressure to keep one's mouth shut about it is very strong. They figure that saying anything about it would be 'pissing up stream' as they say.

So, I think there might be some premies, that while they are not supportive of us exposing the censorship, and don't want Maharaji to be seen in a negative light, might actually secretly hope this recent expose will lead to the downfall of that embarrassing site and perhaps lead to a little more openness in the premie world.

Or, maybe, it might help them question their involvement in something that is so dishonest and closed. Especially, since the site appears to have Maharaji's fingerprints all over it, if what we are hearing about Visions advertising the site is true. That kind of Visions advertising would not happen without Maharaji's personal approval.
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Date: Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 11:07:03 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: In Defense of (Some) Premies
Message:
Hi JW
I have to wonder though. I mean, if premies are
out there who secretly want to see some of this
exposed, then how can they be into M at all?
It's just hard to me to imagine that. I guess
since it didn't take all that much for me to finally get away.

I had another of those 'Being at an event' dreams
last night! The third one since I started posting
here. Must have been from reading forum, but
every time I have that dream it's so creepy.
I am there, hating it, wanting to leave. The premies
are, well, just the way they are at events. Phony
smiles, bland... this guy asked me for a hug.
geez, why do people ask people for hugs?
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Date: Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 11:18:13 (EST)
From: david m
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Dreams
Message:
Hey Selene.....
Pretty wierd but iv'e been having those dreams lately...back in india....toronto...amhurst...riding arround with the big M....and i find myself always trying to escape..its like please get me out of here and in the end i always do escape... pretty eierd huh.......dave
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Date: Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 11:34:28 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: david m
Subject: Dreams
Message:
Thanks for telling me about the dreams. For some reason
this one took place in Indianapolis. I have never
even been there. But in my version of that city, there
were all these great restaurants and micro breweries
(snicker) and neat stores and street stuff going on.
And the premies were saying what a relief it was that
the hotel where the event was had catered it so that they
didn't have to ever leave the building and go out into
the city.
And they all got into the room REAL early so they could have a seat, and waited for an HOUR for the lard.
And I was going nuts sitting there. IT sucked. I wanted a glass of amber!
I am not sure if I can say I'm glad you have those dreams,
but it is a relief to know I am not alone.
Anyone else?
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Date: Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 12:17:46 (EST)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Selene & David
Subject: Dreams
Message:
I've had those dreams since leaving also. Still occasionally have them, after 17 years out of the cult! They can be most disconcerting. I remember when I was a premie how I used to long for 'darshan' dreams, dreams with Maharaji in them, and didn't have very many. Then, since leaving, they would pop up with great regularity. I often have the one where I'm at a program, usually trying to get a seat in the front, since that was such a big deal back when I was going to programs. Or the one where I'm in the ashram and want to get out but can't escape. Boy, they'll have to add a whole new chapter to Jung's dream analysis just for ex-premies! But now, I just mainly ignore them when they happen, and they are fewer and further between now, despite constant participation here at the site. Don't get upset, it's not REALLY Maharaji appearing to you, just part of your subconscious trying to process what went on (would be my interpretation). It was a pretty heavy thing we were involved with there.
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Date: Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 19:35:49 (EST)
From: david m
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Dreams
Message:
Hey Joy......
You are so right it was the heviest things of all...M was the lord of the univ...i was giving my whole life to him...and for what...more personel pleasures...for the big cat.......jeeesh...that sounds so stupid now......peace....dave
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Date: Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 12:48:37 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Dreams
Message:
Dear Selene - I have had one dream about M since I started posting on the forum. I hadn't dreamed about him for 20 years before, so I know, obviously, that it's old memories being stirred up.

P.S. I still have nightmares about missing final exams, forgetting to drop classes, etc. I don't think those will EVER stop! Sheesh.
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Date: Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 15:05:52 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Dreams
Message:
I had one dream about M that I posted once. I had it very soon after finding this site. M was doing a very lame program in an old abandoned plant nursery (dead plants all around) There were all these broken down cars there and not very many premies...it was so pitiful, I felt sorry for him. It has faded from memory now and I haven't had any more dreams that I remember :)
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Date: Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 20:28:56 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Dreams
Message:
These dream stories are great! Your subconscious' way of telling you you did the right thing by leaving!
Selene, I loved your dream...sounds like a real healthy one to me! (Isn't it weird that health is the opposite of the norms in guru M's trip?),
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Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 11:13:20 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: More dreams
Message:
Hi Selene,
After reading the thread about dreams last night I actually had this really grotesque, weird dream early this am before I woke up.
I was 'doing service' with this woman who was 'Miss Perfect Premie'. We were gardening. She actually had a baby that she put in a file cabinet drawer. The baby was screaming but she peacefully went about her gardening, making perfect little rows of herbs. I was distracted because I was trying to keep an eye on my daughter (who was a toddler in the dream). My daughter was climbing on ropes and hanging out over the ocean and I was barely capable of taking care of her. I was scrambling around trying to do 'service' and watch my kid and it was making me nuts.

The Perfect Premie woman was the only one in the ashram doing the service. The ashram was in a state of chaos. She told me the others 'were in a lot of trouble and were about to be kicked out of the ashram'.

Weird, huh?
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Date: Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 13:21:24 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: In Defense of (Some) Premies
Message:
That's a good question, Selene. It is hard to see how those premies do it.

I don't think they want to have the deception and lies publicly exposed, I think it's more that they silently would rather that there wasn't such a revisionist, closed culture among premies. I think one way they deal with it is to blame the premies, and not Maharaji, or tell themselves they really don't care that much about it.

But, note that if premies want to write a life story on enjoyinglife, they have to give their names, and that's probably why so few do it. I think a bunch of premies are really closet premies. They don't want to advertise that they ARE premies, except to other premies, especially in the West. So, they slip off to programs and video events, but don't mention to their employers, colleagues, families, etc., that they are really into anything like that, especially if anyone can go to either of these websites and find out stuff about their lord, and the current premies, that the premies wouldn't want to be associated with.

If the enjoyinglife site weren't so sappy and embarrassing to them, they WOULDN'T be reticent to write their stories there, but as it is, I think many premies ARE embarrassed by it and don't want to be associated with it. Now, with the recent revelations, they are likely even more embarrassed. But if Big M endorses the site, they might feel GUILTY for NOT participating. As we all know, the cult is driven mainly by guilt and fear.

By the way, I think there are also premies who are embarrassed or at least confused by the shopping mall Maharaji is running at programs these days, selling jewelry, aprons, watches, sarongs and the like. They would also prefer that people weren't aware of that either, and if they allow themselves to second guess the lord, they would rather he didn't engage in such flagrant commercialism surrounding what is supposed to be a free, internal experience. But you won't hear any of them saying that publicly either.

Look, when I was a premie, I secretly wished Big M wasn't so into money and living a luxurious lifestyle. You know, ONE Rolls Royce was enough, okay? And I was embarrassed in a way to be his devotee for that reason. I was also, towards the end, often embarrassed by what he did at programs, especially the half-naked dancing routines. I was embarrassed by his incoherence when I brought non-premie friends to hear him at an introductory program. But I didn't say anything to anyone, because that was doubt and not allowed. The group pressure was very great. I think the same process is true now. Many premies ARE embarrassed by enjoyinglife and some of Big M's obvious faults, but they don't mention them to anyone.

Frankly, I think it would be a great benefit to the premies, but especially to Maharaji, if open discussion of all those things were encouraged, and it would HAVE to be encouraged by M himself, but I wouldn't hold my breath for that to happen anytime soon.
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Date: Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 14:13:21 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Defense of Premies/Dreams
Message:
Thanks for the thoughful reply.
I do see your point. How quickly I have fogotten
being on of those premies. The first time someone
suggested we go into the 'mall' during a break at an event,
I didn't know what to do I was so bored and embarrassed by
all the oooiing and gooiing about M pictures.
And also, I have heard often enough the blame premies
put on other premies when they are confronted with something
they can't reconcile.
You know, I think my whole problem was I never really did
see M as anything special. Not really. I just psyched myself into it.
And thanks all for the comments about the dreams.
I didn't really think there was anything supernatural about having them, but it's creepy still.
This last one was funny though in that we were sitting
in a room waiting for M and my husband woke me up before he got there. I knew I married him for some good reasons!
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Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 06:09:02 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: In Defense of (Some) Premies
Message:
Hi JW (and Selene),

I completely agree with your analysis of premies attitude regarding M & EV's policy etc

That's been mine for almost all the time I've been involved in the cult, and I know it's been the same for a lot of premies I know very well, we've been discussing this numerous times: it's pam's fault, premies fault, such and such coordinators who really are semi-bongos, etc

We used to spend our time in this attitude, until we get some fresh inspiration from such and such instructor, or such and such person who's recently be a lot with m, you know all the BS.

Back and forth all the time, from 'doubt' to 'heaven'!

Until one day the cup is full, whatever causes the cup to over brim, and you start admitting who's (and what's) fault it really is, and that your so-called 'Lord of the Universe' might not be who he claims to be, and your whole belief collapses.

I know a lot of 'closet premies' as you say (I would say most of the 'active premies' are), are struggling into this. It is a difficult struggle, and it will last until they are fed up.

I'm quite sad thinking of some people I still love who are into this.

Retrospectively, I think that what helped me the most to begin with, was to acknowledge those facts I didn't like, and to openly discuss them (more or less) with my best friends.

The more you discuss those issues, the more you learn details you didn't know about (like what you can read on this site), bigger the 'doubt' grows ..... that's why the BM doesn't want premies and aspirants to come here!

But I guess the ball is rolling now, and 'He' can't do anything about it. That's the best thing that could ever happen, thanks to Microsoft, Netscape & computers.
The very technology the BM liked so much has become his worst enemy.
I wouldn't be surprised if the BM starts now dissing computers and even ban them around him.
I'm almost ready to bet anything ....
I can almost imagine his new theory: 'go back to the basics, be natural and simple, no need to use sophisticated technology, do things with your heart'
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Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 12:06:24 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: In Defense of (Some) Premies
Message:
You are so right about the process...how much time people wasted going back & forth, back & forth?...decades? lifetimes? What a waste of 'this human life' maharaji is always talking about.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 12:44:40 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: In Defense of (Some) Premies
Message:
Being involved in a cult is definitely something I consider detrimental to oneself evolution, and adult life.

But don't forget there are so many things one can get involved in, and not go anywhere, until you finally understand where you're in!
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Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 20:46:06 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Good point (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Nov 18, 1998 at 11:21:45 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Good point, Joe!
Message:
God, for once you said something worthwhile! (joke). No, Joe, you've got to be right. There just must be a spectrum between guys like the Pravda Premies and Golden Oldie. I mean, you'd think anyway, wouldn't you?

To tell you the truth, the guy I feel sorry for in all this is Maharaji. Just when he gives his t-shirt endorsement to a web site, just when he finally takes a baby step in trusting his loving gratefullers, they let him down again! Poor guy.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 19, 1998 at 11:05:58 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Iagree, great point (nt)
Message:
nt
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