Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 30

From: Nov 23, 1998

To: Dec 5, 1998

Page: 2 Of: 5



chr -:- question -:- Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 02:05:06 (EST)
__JW -:- Thanks -:- Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 14:08:23 (EST)
____Secret Agent -:- Don't peek, top secret stuff -:- Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 15:32:05 (EST)
______JW -:- Don't peek, top secret stuff -:- Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 15:35:45 (EST)
________John -:- Don't peek, top secret stuff -:- Wed, Dec 02, 1998 at 16:11:56 (EST)
__________JW -:- Don't peek, top secret stuff -:- Wed, Dec 02, 1998 at 17:39:12 (EST)
____________John -:- Gossip -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 11:30:12 (EST)
____JW -:- Sorry -:- Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 15:37:12 (EST)
____bill -:- long days -:- Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 23:36:11 (EST)
______Runamok -:- long days & nitemares -:- Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 00:11:01 (EST)
________bill -:- long days & nitemares -:- Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 00:25:54 (EST)
__________Sir David -:- long days & nitemares -:- Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 01:32:49 (EST)
________Runamok -:- suits in the closet -:- Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 19:19:11 (EST)
______JW -:- long days -:- Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 01:18:43 (EST)
________Helen -:- long list of casualties -:- Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 14:17:41 (EST)
__________Jerry -:- long list of casualties -:- Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 16:42:26 (EST)
____________Helen -:- Amen, brother Jeraldo (nt) -:- Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 19:16:31 (EST)
________bill -:- JW more DECA tales -:- Wed, Dec 02, 1998 at 00:11:52 (EST)
______RT -:- Wrong daze -:- Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 12:48:45 (EST)
________Helen -:- Wrong daze -:- Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 14:20:15 (EST)
________dv -:- Wrong daze -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 02:07:53 (EST)
__________bb -:- Wrong daze -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 12:03:25 (EST)
______Helen -:- You're given one body -:- Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 14:10:35 (EST)
______dv -:- long days -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 01:48:56 (EST)
__dv -:- question -:- Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 23:06:31 (EST)
____dv -:- question -:- Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 23:49:26 (EST)
______srb...*<* -:- question -:- Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 00:07:55 (EST)
______JW -:- question -:- Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 00:38:54 (EST)
________dv -:- question -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 02:36:36 (EST)
__________JW -:- question -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 13:23:21 (EST)
______VP -:- question -:- Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 14:07:26 (EST)
________dv -:- Thank You -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 02:51:53 (EST)
__________VP -:- Thank You -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 08:10:11 (EST)
____bvd -:- question -:- Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 23:53:49 (EST)
______chr -:- question -:- Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 02:40:26 (EST)
________chr -:- question -:- Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 04:30:27 (EST)
________JW -:- question -:- Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 13:15:44 (EST)
__________dv -:- question -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 03:05:30 (EST)
__________chr -:- question -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 14:31:30 (EST)
____________JW -:- question -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 15:30:11 (EST)
______dv -:- question -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 02:59:25 (EST)
____John -:- Protech memories -:- Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 09:58:37 (EST)
______Jim -:- Protech memories -:- Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 12:16:55 (EST)
________John -:- gossip is good! -:- Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 13:19:35 (EST)
__________Bobby -:- gossip is good! -:- Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 14:32:00 (EST)
____________bill -:- bobby -:- Wed, Dec 02, 1998 at 00:29:46 (EST)
______________Bobby -:- bobby -:- Wed, Dec 02, 1998 at 07:36:38 (EST)
__________dv -:- gossip is good! -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 03:12:23 (EST)
____________John -:- Hey no fair! -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 11:16:33 (EST)
______________dv -:- Hey no fair! -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 15:36:55 (EST)
________________John -:- Hey no fair! -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 10:10:07 (EST)
______JW -:- Lemon -:- Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 13:26:42 (EST)
________John -:- Lemon -:- Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 14:45:54 (EST)
__________Jim -:- Beth? Did you say Beth? -:- Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 21:45:46 (EST)
____________John -:- further fables of frustration -:- Wed, Dec 02, 1998 at 10:20:09 (EST)
______________Helen -:- further fables of frustration -:- Wed, Dec 02, 1998 at 22:56:30 (EST)
______________dv -:- Gossip time -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 03:17:32 (EST)
________Helen -:- JIM read this.This thread... -:- Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 14:46:14 (EST)
__________Jim -:- No class action, I'm afraid -:- Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 20:21:19 (EST)
____________Runamok -:- No cult and no action -:- Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 21:32:47 (EST)
______________Jim -:- No cult and no action -:- Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 21:47:58 (EST)
__________shp -:- safety at DECA.... -:- Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 20:28:57 (EST)
____________gerry -:- safety at DECA.... -:- Wed, Dec 02, 1998 at 00:15:05 (EST)
______________Orlando -:- shp is no SHP. -:- Wed, Dec 02, 1998 at 09:26:12 (EST)
________________shp/SHP -:- shp is no SHP. -:- Wed, Dec 02, 1998 at 15:14:53 (EST)
__________________Orlando -:- you are? -:- Wed, Dec 02, 1998 at 16:36:38 (EST)
____________________shp (lower case = easy) -:- change is inevitable in life -:- Wed, Dec 02, 1998 at 16:52:50 (EST)
______________________Orlando -:- you see? -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 09:35:12 (EST)
____________bill -:- safety at DECA.... -:- Wed, Dec 02, 1998 at 00:50:58 (EST)
____________Mike -:- safety at DECA.... -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 14:24:44 (EST)
______________shp -:- safety at DECA.... -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 16:05:37 (EST)
________________Mike -:- safety at DECA.... -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 10:02:21 (EST)
__________VP -:- JIM read this.This thread... -:- Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 22:06:07 (EST)
____________Helen -:- 3 continents -:- Wed, Dec 02, 1998 at 22:47:27 (EST)
______________Katie -:- 3 continents -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 15:29:48 (EST)
__Katie -:- Thanks for this thread -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 17:15:04 (EST)
____dv -:- Thanks for this thread -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 23:52:45 (EST)

Brian -:- Is it worth it? -:- Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 00:28:39 (EST)
__Sir David -:- Is it worth it? -:- Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 02:55:47 (EST)
__bill -:- Is it worth it? -:- Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 07:45:13 (EST)
____RT -:- Is CHIT worth it? PROOF -:- Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 12:37:44 (EST)
______Katie -:- Is CHIT worth it? PROOF -:- Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 13:44:45 (EST)
______Helen -:- Is CHIT worth it? PROOF -:- Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 22:45:48 (EST)
______Robyn -:- Is CHIT worth it? PROOF -:- Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 00:49:16 (EST)
______JW -:- Is CHIT worth it? PROOF -:- Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 18:31:19 (EST)
__hamzen -:- Is it worth it? -:- Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 15:10:31 (EST)
__JW -:- Is it worth it? -:- Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 15:33:49 (EST)
____Jerry -:- Is it worth it? -:- Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 15:57:26 (EST)
____Mike -:- Here, here JW (nt) -:- Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 16:49:35 (EST)
____TD -:- Fuck no, absolutely not! -:- Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 19:45:11 (EST)
______JW -:- TD, Don't Mince Words -- -:- Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 00:47:21 (EST)
________TD -:- TD, Don't Mince Words -- -:- Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 22:45:02 (EST)
__________JW -:- I Was Kidding!!! -:- Wed, Dec 02, 1998 at 17:30:21 (EST)
____________TD -:- I know you were!!!! -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 04:23:09 (EST)
______RT -:- TD^....Just Said Know! -:- Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 12:24:58 (EST)
__Liz -:- Is it worth it? -:- Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 20:02:10 (EST)
____bill -:- Is it worth it? -:- Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 22:17:22 (EST)
____Katie -:- To Liz -:- Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 18:33:44 (EST)
__Jim -:- Sure. Why not? -:- Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 20:39:51 (EST)
____bill -:- Sure. Why not? -:- Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 22:30:11 (EST)
____Laura -:- Absolutely not -:- Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 22:34:05 (EST)
__Helen -:- Is it worth it? -:- Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 22:42:17 (EST)
__Mickey the Pharisee -:- Is it worth it? -:- Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 01:34:30 (EST)
__Barney -:- Is it worth it? -:- Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 01:55:53 (EST)
____Helen -:- Why the hell did we do it? -:- Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 14:02:06 (EST)
______JW -:- Why the hell did we do it? -:- Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 19:23:26 (EST)
________Helen -:- Why the hell did we do it? -:- Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 19:39:21 (EST)
__Anon -:- Is it worth it? -:- Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 17:36:19 (EST)
____hamzen -:- Is it worth it? -:- Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 18:56:58 (EST)
__Katie -:- Is it worth it? -:- Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 19:11:52 (EST)

hamzen -:- The going rate -:- Sun, Nov 29, 1998 at 22:09:13 (EST)
__bill -:- 50$ a week -:- Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 00:34:27 (EST)
____RT -:- 50$ a week? Sat's All? -:- Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 12:28:26 (EST)
______bill -:- 50$ a week? Sat's All? -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 12:18:33 (EST)

Katie -:- Happy Birthday, Nigel! -:- Sun, Nov 29, 1998 at 14:33:48 (EST)
__Robyn -:- Happy Birthday, Nigel! -:- Sun, Nov 29, 1998 at 15:05:57 (EST)
____Selene -:- Happy Birthday, Nigel! -:- Sun, Nov 29, 1998 at 16:08:30 (EST)
______TD -:- Happy Birthday, Nigel! -:- Sun, Nov 29, 1998 at 17:33:42 (EST)
__Jim -:- Happy Birthday, Nigel! -:- Sun, Nov 29, 1998 at 17:39:09 (EST)
__Mickey the Pharisee -:- Happy Birthday, Nigel! -:- Sun, Nov 29, 1998 at 18:11:35 (EST)
__Laura -:- Happy Birthday, Nigel! -:- Sun, Nov 29, 1998 at 19:11:49 (EST)
__Helen -:- Happy Birthday, Nigel! -:- Sun, Nov 29, 1998 at 22:16:22 (EST)
__VP -:- Happy Birthday, Nigel! -:- Sun, Nov 29, 1998 at 22:41:23 (EST)
__Jerry -:- Happy Birthday, Nigel! -:- Sun, Nov 29, 1998 at 23:15:31 (EST)
__Joy -:- Happy Birthday, Nigel! -:- Sun, Nov 29, 1998 at 23:21:14 (EST)
__Sir David -:- Happy Birthday, Nigel! -:- Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 03:03:27 (EST)
__Nigel -:- It's today! -:- Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 04:50:25 (EST)
____Robyn -:- It's today! -:- Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 10:39:33 (EST)
____JW -:- It's today! -:- Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 13:03:45 (EST)
____eb -:- It's today! -:- Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 14:28:11 (EST)
______seymour -:- Happy Birthday Andy O'Dwyer -:- Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 15:28:32 (EST)
________TD -:- Happy B'day Andy not Tony -:- Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 18:55:03 (EST)
__________nigel -:- Their mistake, not yours... -:- Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 02:15:12 (EST)

seymour -:- Authoritarianism not the way -:- Sun, Nov 29, 1998 at 10:59:13 (EST)
__Helen -:- Authoritarianism not the way -:- Sun, Nov 29, 1998 at 11:06:29 (EST)
__jethro -:- An excellent post(nt) -:- Sun, Nov 29, 1998 at 15:45:50 (EST)
__Laura -:- Authoritarianism not the way -:- Sun, Nov 29, 1998 at 21:49:54 (EST)
____Katie -:- Authoritarianism not the way -:- Sun, Nov 29, 1998 at 21:59:39 (EST)
__JW -:- Authoritarianism not the way -:- Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 15:24:45 (EST)
____seymour -:- Authoritarianism not the way -:- Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 15:31:43 (EST)
____Helen -:- Authoritarianism not the way -:- Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 16:50:06 (EST)

Willi Kranz -:- hello again... -:- Sat, Nov 28, 1998 at 21:39:20 (EST)
__Guess who? -:- hello again... -:- Sat, Nov 28, 1998 at 21:56:37 (EST)
____Crazy American Girl -:- hello again... -:- Sun, Nov 29, 1998 at 06:43:47 (EST)
__Noriko Sakamoto -:- herro again... -:- Sun, Nov 29, 1998 at 03:31:07 (EST)
__Katie -:- Aw, Willi... -:- Sun, Nov 29, 1998 at 15:00:42 (EST)
__Barney -:- To Be or Not To Be - doobeedoo -:- Sun, Nov 29, 1998 at 15:16:51 (EST)


Date: Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 02:05:06 (EST)
From: chr
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: question
Message:
HI JW,
I have only just seen a question you asked me 5 days ago. I have written a reply in that series of posts .regards chr.
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Date: Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 14:08:23 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: chr
Subject: Thanks
Message:
Thanks, chr, I went to the inactive index and saw your response. Thanks for that.

I bet I am not alone in being interested in hearing about what you saw while you were doing security around Maharaji at airports and residences -- those things you felt you had to rationalize. It's really helpful to know this stuff.

Just so you know, I worked at DECA, the plane conversion project, in 1979-1980 in the finance/legal department, and was community coordinator in Miami in 1980 - 1981. I also saw a lot of stuff I had to rationalize, like seeing Maharaji being very pissed off and what seemed to me to be sadistic to some premies. I also saw him make really outrageous material demands, with apparently no concern whatsoever for the premies who had to carry them out.

For example, I remember one time, before the plane was finished, Maharaji had rented a Lear Jet to fly to some program, I think in South America. He was leaving in about 60 hours and he wanted a built in sofa/bed contraption built into the plane before he left. It certainly wasn't a necessity -- it was just something he wanted, and he knew full well that it wasn't reasonable to expect that it could be done in that time. Of course, he was not to be refused, and I saw premies scramble and work around the clock with no sleep, with no concern for themselves, so that Maharaji could have this little extra comfort he wanted. This was the work-ethic at DECA anyway, doing 'service' for very long hours, but this was particularly extreme.

I found a lot of the stuff surrounding finances to be really troubling as well. Of course, when I asked troubling questions, I was fired from DECA [can't say I was upset about that] and made the community coordinator [which I was NOT happy about]. I also knew a few other premies who were really troubled by what was going on there, and said things to me about it, but where afraid to do much else. Jim Hession was in charge. I never met a person who

I also saw a lot of the break-up of families that you mentioned earlier, especially in regard to the plane project. Also, some premies really had their health damaged working with toxic chemicals and paints, without proper safeguards, and had to pay for that with their own physical well-being.

In about 1981, after I had been transferred to San Francisco, I was given a tour of the plane at the Miami airport. I knew it would be nice, but I was shocked at how opulent it was. I still remember all the electronics in the computerized shower.

I also lived for a short time in the Boston ashram with some of the guys who did back-stage security at programs. They struck me as being rather rigid and uptight people, and not friendly in the least.

Was the security company, which wasn't supposed to let people know it was made up of premies, part of the Protech/Prolock company that was in Miami, which I think was a failed business venture?
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Date: Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 15:32:05 (EST)
From: Secret Agent
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Don't peek, top secret stuff
Message:
Pssst...Joe!
Parameters was the name of a top-secret security company in miami beach, but please don't tell anyone.
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Date: Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 15:35:45 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Secret Agent
Subject: Don't peek, top secret stuff
Message:
'Paramaters.' How cute. Who thought that up?
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Date: Wed, Dec 02, 1998 at 16:11:56 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Don't peek, top secret stuff
Message:
Who thought of Parameters? Good question. I have no idea. I suspect Harry...was it Payne?, the guy who was in charge of the security guard firm, but...who the hell knows? It was surely a stroke of pure creative genius though :-)

Harry was another very wierd guy, but then, were there any normal people in Miami Beach, in or out of the cult?

I remember going with my old buddy Alan Conrad, across Biscayne Bay to the Miami satsang hall , that dilapidated building, and doing something with the wiring. So Protech put that alarm system in for you. What was there to steal from a satsang hall anyway? Arti candles? Pillows? Microphones? A beautiful chair/throne for M to sit in?
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Date: Wed, Dec 02, 1998 at 17:39:12 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Don't peek, top secret stuff
Message:
Someone ripped off the video machine (remember those HUGE video machines that looked like pieces of furniture) and also stole some sound equipment. We also had a restaurant (Grace's Place) and a small grocery in the basement that made a lot of money for the community, since most of the people who went to satsang at the Miami satsang hall appeared to be street people. Protech put in a security system, but the hall got robbed anyway.

It was an awful hall. Booth Dyess found it, not me. I was always kind of hoping it would burn down, which it almost did during the riots in 1980. Remember those?

Was Harry Payne a black guy who was in charge of security at programs? Yes, he was weird. The security people all seemed pretty weird to me. They were always walking around with radios. And there was the chair. Did I mention that one time in Chicago, after seeing people pranam to a chair and sing arti to a chair, I heard the young daughter of an aspirant, while leaving the satsang hall, asking her mother if 'they worship chairs in this religion?'
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 11:30:12 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Gossip
Message:
'Was Harry Payne a black guy who was in charge of security at programs?'

I remember him more as light brown.

Harry was strange, (but then who wasn't?). He told me once that the first time he heard the song Yesterday (in my opinion the sappiest song the beatles ever wrote), he thought it was the most beautiful song he had ever heard! Now I had known Harry for a while then and his persona was the tough as nails, hard ass, security honcho, take no shit from no one, kind of guy. So his admitting to loving a song like Yesterday made it impossible for me to take him seriously anymore. He was another guy that I had to really work hard to try not to laugh when he started ranting.

I wouldn't be surprised to hear that he's a police chief somewhere.
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Date: Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 15:37:12 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Sorry
Message:
I didn't complete one of the sentences, above. I got distracted. Work can be such an imposition. It's a terrible problem.

Anyhow, I said Jim Hession was in charge at DECA and I said that I never met a person who was so enamored with organizational charts.
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Date: Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 23:36:11 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: long days
Message:
I was at the plane when you coordinators toured the
plane. I clearly remember. By the way, during the
707, the cabinet crew (me) and some others worked from
8 or 9 in the morning till the final meal came which
was at 2:30 in the morning. No such thing as sundays.

It took 5,000 premie hours to buff the wings to the
mirror finish he wanted. And after evey tour it had to be
rebuffed and resprayed with clear coat.
Of course we were using -MEK- like it was water.
Very toxic, remember the guy in the plateing shop? dead.
He worked with tuff that was totally deadly,
I forget the name of it but everyone has heard of it.

Then he goes and sells the plane and we have the new
one to work on, and helicopters and house furniture
and all that would be fine if he actually was who he insisted
he was and I remember Jeffrey Switzer who gave up a
lead ballet career in hartford because to the 78 79
ashram/ultimate ruler demands and ended up as a cook at
the Broadripple makeing those 2:30 am meals we ate.

He drifted through hartford in the late eighties complaining about
prem rawat and also how he never even said 'thank you'
I of course was unable to see beyond my ultimate ruler
programming as it was so thick.

your right, many projects came that required huge
hours to complete. Always this burn out schedule.
At hans jayanti 78 I was up during the day and had to
go backstage at night and work till dawn for 5 days.
I am not kidding. I didn't sleep for 5 days.
I was standing moving trying to be able to listen to him
and I couldn't maintain brain concentration and was
delerious actually. Luckily the project was over
from that night on. Of course I thought it was his
mercy that he saw I was at my limit.
sheesh.
When the lord wants something (especially in 78,79 80 81,82,)
Your whole effort at getting 'that experience' from him was
at stake.

The sisters who worked backstage prepareing were always
freaked out. I am not kidding, the pressure they were in
was very real and visible.
The girls in charge were mad bitches. I forget thier names.
They became instructors in the mid eighties and were
poisoned with the self important 'upper dust' syndrome.
One of them is the one with black hair that sings at
events. I say it publically, she was a mad bitch.
I saw her in action repeatedly.
Thought she was Rhada of course, mistress material
if he or raja ji felt in the mood;. But, she was tragically
hijacked from a life of freedom in america so again,
she can't be blamed and it is another one of the
masters 'fruits'.

The closer you got to his residence, you ran into the
rule that said 'we dont go to satsang, we do service
and meditation only' I am not kidding at all. There was NO time
for satsang-a break- sit and listen, no, too much to do.
Endless desires of the ultimate ruler to keep the slaves busy.
You only lived to serve him.
Anyone who thinks otherwise lived in the outer edges and
heard this talk in prem rawats program talks, but kept away
from the service universe.

Only if you gave yourself up
completely to complete servitude could you peacefully
accept the situation. To an extent.
Most fried because it so directly denies your own impulses
and crushes any impulse to do anything for you.

Of course that is exactly what tortured acceptance of
lower caste indian life requires and the guru's have
stupidly thought that this is some great breakthrough.

Crush the freedom and individuality of the servant/student,
leaving the grateful slave with the vacant soul
singing 'brahma, vishnu, shiva, bow thier heads and
pray to you'
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Date: Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 00:11:01 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: long days & nitemares
Message:
Dunno about this stuff but I hope some of it finds it way to a more permanent spot on the forum.
How old was the guy who died?
(For all intents and purposes, I was outa there by '81.)
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Date: Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 00:25:54 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: long days & nitemares
Message:
Hello Runamok
Thirties.
Im off to bed,
I see in reading the post that it might seem that the girl
WAS a mistress. I was just referring to her vulnerability
to being a mistress.
I will be working off and on out of state for a couple weeks
so posting will be less but I'll come read the posts way down
and in the inactive list to keep up.should be here for another day.
Glad I got some of that out.
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Date: Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 01:32:49 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: bill
Subject: long days & nitemares
Message:
Glad you did Bill. I remember after travelling all day and night and day again to get to Copenhagan 'festival?' in 1974 that I got off the ashram premie bus totally knackered to be greeted by a stern looking Ashokanand who told us that the human body was not given to us for sleeping and I did service all that night, all the next day and most of the next night until I could do no more and collapsed into my sleeping bag away from the insanity of it all.

Darshan came and I just saw this fat youth who seemed oblivious of the suffering I was going through and so I kissed his feet because everybody else was doing that and felt sick. The last evening of the festival and the last evening of Maharaji's satsang, I could stand it no more and I walked out before he began talking and wandered off into Copenhagen town centre completely freaked out and utterly confused about this mad trip I had gotten into.It was pure hell for me. But I was an ashram premie and had given myself to the Lord completely so I figured it would all come right in the end.

I wandered back to the festival site, unable to tell anyone of the confusion and torment I was in. There were happy premies everywhere who were talking about the Lord. I kept my confusion to myself and went back with the other ashram premies to Stoke ashram again. The fact that I'd worked all night in a bakery to pay for this festival, as well as my normal day job and also done the continuous service that we ashram premies were always doing; all this did not deter me from my path of suffering and confusion. I kept it to myself.

ANd so I always did, even when I left the ashram after a personality clash with another ashram secretary. I kept my confusion to myself. Perhaps one day, it would all come right and I'd be at his lotus feet and all would be fine. I kept up this faith right up until 1983 when the Maharaji trip folded in the UK, here.

But then followed years of even greater confusion as I battled with myself and all the heavy programming I'd received for over a decade. What had happened to me? Who was Maharaji? Why had he deserted me? Why was I so alone and so desolate? Eventually I regained some semblence of my personality which I'd had before I came to Maharaji in 1972 and I began to think for myself again and reject Maharaji's way. Every now and then a premie would tell me about Maharaji doing a program, but I would shudder in horror at the thought of it. It was only when I found other ex-premies on the net a couple of years ago, Jim, the other D@vid and some others that I finally began to understand what had happened to me. I had been caught up in a most damaging cult which had damaged me. At last there were people who understood what this had all been about.

Thank you. Thank you very much.
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Date: Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 19:19:11 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: fellow victims
Subject: suits in the closet
Message:
I hope that people with such tragic circumstances to deal with are able to overcome their past enough to communicate with us and/or each other. Hearing about tragic unnecessary deaths and illnesses which are directly or indirectly linked to BM's greed really summarizes for me why I left the cult.
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Date: Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 01:18:43 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: long days
Message:
Bill,

Thanks for that post. It certainly sounds like the Deca I remember. As I said below, even now when I think of that place I get sick to my stomach.

I remember the plating shop. I remember premies working there, but I don't recall names. I used to walk through all the time. Are you saying the guy died from working in the plating shop at Deca? I remember the paint shop too. I remember thinking it looked really unsafe, both because of inhalation, and also fires.

Did you know Nancy McCoy? She lives in Northern California. She got really sick, and was disabled for years, from working with toxic chemicals in the cockpit on the instrument panel of the plane. She ended up having to live with her parents for years. She considered suing, but never did.

Yeah, I remember the work schedules at Deca. Many premies just stayed there all the time. It was frenetic. It was inhuman. It was nuts.

I also remember there were always other projects going on that weren't the plane. Like furniture for 'the residence' and stuff like that. I recall one time one of his Rolls Royces was out there having something done to it. Remember for his birthday one year we gave him a Citroen? He used to drive that out there sometimes too.

I also remember thinking that the reason people like Jim Hession and others at Deca seemed so nuts was because they never went to satsang. It kind of worried me.

I also remember those meals from the Broadripple. Endless numbers of styrafoam meal containers. I also did some of that around the clock service thing, but then I also kind of couldn't see the point. So much of it seemed like needless busy work, and a lot of it was terribly disorganized. But the worst thing, and the all-pervasive thing, was that Maharaji really didn't care about the welfare of the people serving him. I think he just never considered it as something he was supposed to care about. Amazing.
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Date: Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 14:17:41 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: long list of casualties
Message:
Excuse me while I scream:

AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRHHHHHHHHHGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!
Once more I have to repeat Gerry's question:
How can anyone read this stuff and still believe in that guy???
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Date: Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 16:42:26 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: long list of casualties
Message:
AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRHHHHHHHHHGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!

I have to tell you, Helen, that was a great scream. I don't think Jim Morrison could have written it better. And I agree with you about still believing in the Big M after reading this stuff. What did M really do to deserve this kind of sacrifice and devotion? What could ANYONE do? Why he'd have to be GOD!
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Date: Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 19:16:31 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Amen, brother Jeraldo (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Dec 02, 1998 at 00:11:52 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: JW more DECA tales
Message:
Too bad about Nancy, sure I remember her, I spent
a lot of time on the paint shop cabinet sanding project.

The lord only wanted the best of course, so we had to
use the perhaps most difficult wood, ebony.
Cut it, patch it on the frames, sand it to 400 grit
spray it with clear coat a few times, wet sand it to 1200
grit, then buff it.
He didnt want to see the slightest imperfection.

You remember I know that on the first flight out on a tour,
it went to Montreal and it was well below freezing and
the plane got really cold and they went in to get it ready
to take off and turned the heat on and the clear coat
seperated from the wood unevenly and it 'blued'

His divine grace went completely insane with rage and
I forget his name but I heard repeatedly that that guy
who rawat blamed as responsible got the total rage
package from rawat.

Nancy, yeah I remember the cockpit project.
I think it might have been the cockpit that they cut off
another 707 and turned into a 'simulator' so the
lord of the universe could practice.
A lot of hours- a real lot- went into that and I remember
knowing and hearing that he almost never used it.

He used to go to the studio in deca and let the
'holy jester' band sing bhajans to him for long chunks
of time everyday.
Like a regularly scheduled adoration therapy session to
keep him in that lord of the universe mood.

Obviously I would recognise you if I saw you.
We definately had a lot of moments together.
Glad you were here to help me out with your
clearheaded viewpoint.

I remember one time I was at the hanger and there were
a few of my co-workers in a cirle and they called me over.
There was this aircraft device that was shaped like a
cigar tube at the top and was a BIG cigar tube and it
had a hole right on top like you might imagine, it looked
like a metallic penis and believe it or not, they had to
draw the liquid compound out the top of the thing
by vacuum method using your mouth and -ahem-
sucking the air out drawing the er-um liquid to the top.
I was flabberghasted seeing the effort and they asked me
to try and I couldn't do it for more than a second and I
stood up (it was waist high believe it or not)
and said 'I know there are some guys at the complex that
could do this real good.' That got a laugh and I walked away.
I was thinking specifically of David Wilbur, soon to be
instructor, he tuned into the gay gene that my sister and
uncle have and came on to me in the back stairs by pulling his
pants down and asking for a back rub. Being nieve and
innocent, I gave him the back rub but turned down his offer
to rub his fanny. He finally understood and was all wierded
out by his wrong guess but I told him it was ok and it was just
between us and I have never told anyone till now.
I dont think he should be denying himself at this late date
so..........out of the shadows David. It is ok.

I couldn't figure out why so many deca premies were
dying in the early eighties till I understood about AIDS.
You must have known some premies that died that way.
There were a lot. At least in Miami and New York.

He wanted his house roof to look like real orange ceramic
tiles so when he would go on tour armies of drones
would go to the house to work.
We had to paint his gates 'pearlescent white'
That was a big project cause it had to be the ultimate
prep and paint job.
He had staff just to take care of the fish tanks.
And other staff for the birds.
And two girls to put new flowers throughout the house every
night. I remember they became angry and sour and I wondered
how that happened. Thier 'service' seemed to be
a wispy sisters dream. Of course the most desired service
I heard was the sisters wanted to 'take care of his kids'
Isnt that tragic sounding?
The repressed mothering impulse cruelly snatched away
(for life in many cases) because of his demand for
complete focus only on him.

Really there has never been someone play the lord game
in history to such an extent.
It is stupifying how far he has played it out while actually
totally fakeing it.
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Date: Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 12:48:45 (EST)
From: RT
Email: It's plane to seeth.
To: bill
Subject: Wrong daze
Message:
Bill, I met you at in Orlando, painting the stage...RUGRAT walked by and I froze. I had a camera in my hand to document being there, and took the film OUT when I heard he was there, against all common sense..like HE would not like it. A mind trick.

Then we met at DECA and I can absolutely confirm that your statements are true to form, as I recall the hanger service.

Thought it was special, and I was told I was lucky, 'cause I negotiated a salary for my time..then, $10 a hour..The Miami Ashram Workers go $6 or less, I can't recall. I was one of 3 making money, Part time.

Remember the CODE? '45' was Darshan, '32' meant he's going...such was the fear of discovery that we was brainwashed.

I almost don't even want to start thinking about it, in the full light of understanding...at the time it was a special deal, a servitude strain of reason, a weird thing to do with your time, and the only cool part was being in an aircraft hanger, which wore off after a few weeks...after the smell of aircraft fuel permeated you.

And thet fellow who died of liver cancer was in the DECA ,Paint shop, using MEK like water such toxicity ignored for devotion to a Hindu Waste-r of life.

I hope his plane crashes into the New Jersey dump; that he walks out into 12 square mile of chemical trash, no radio, and stumbles into a pool of crap and swallows some stuff which gives him permanent toxic body odor.

THEN all will know How Much He Stinks!

RT - in a fit of typed anger. OOH I am so pissed out!
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Date: Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 14:20:15 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: RT
Subject: Wrong daze
Message:
YES!!!! Life waste-r, exactly!
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 02:07:53 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: RT
Subject: Wrong daze
Message:
I was part of the security team that handled m's seciruty for the 707. The plane was parked at the airport built for the Olympics due to the high security- Aeroflot, etc. It was soo fucking cold ( seriously minus 35 degrees) that when I had to go take one lap around the plane, my skinny miami vegetarian blood thinned ass almost did'nt make it back to the guardhouse. The guardhouse was 10 by 10 feet, with two 8 foot long by 5 inches wide electric floor heaters running on the floor. It was so cold I figured out how to balance my whole body lengthwise on the heaters to stay warm. Soon my partner joined me( on the other heater, of course).
And there we were- fuck security, and Hanuman...
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 12:03:25 (EST)
From: bb
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: Wrong daze
Message:
I remember that is was well below zero.
I went ot that program also.
They should have left the plane hooked up to one
of those electric trucks and had you inside.

Of course you were not worthy.
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Date: Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 14:10:35 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: You're given one body
Message:
Great post, Bill. This is another one for the 'best of posts' and for the 'Health & career casualties' page of this website (IMHO).

This is madness. None of us has another 'spare' body to slip into if this one wears out and I'm here to tell you it doesn't take a hell of a whole lot to ruin one's body.

My heart goes out to you Bill. Glad you are out of that madness. You could be another health statistic. OPEC (is that the occupational health organization?)should be sicked on GM
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 01:48:56 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: long days
Message:
Bill- your expression of the 'Miami Days' cows me into silence. Beautiful. Brought me to tears- not kidding. Anti-satang feels as good as satsang!
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Date: Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 23:06:31 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: chr
Subject: question
Message:
Ahh, Protech: The one and only Lemon- what a legend. I STILL love the guy.I wonder if he's still alive. Had some troulble in Thailand.
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Date: Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 23:49:26 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: question
Message:
Was in deca till the end. Used to barricade the door while employees were slamming on it demanding their paychecks.

Look.I've seen a lot of things, but can't yet discuss my analysis/two cents of what happened. Lot of conflicts- what else is new.

If, in this forum, there will be an effort to dismantle M's org, which can be done, then so be it. Otherwise, what is being discussed? Kind of scares me. Should a serious effort be done, and discussed in public? There are many levels in this forum- recovery, vengance, banter, pleas, bumbling, humor. The underlying premise of this forum has a quality for me that is very attractive, as it deals with issues and has expressions that I am presently immersed in and relate to, plus the interaction of some people who can express themselves very thouthfully, which is refreshing, regardless of the subject.

I guess one part of me wants to deal, the other wants to hold...
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Date: Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 00:07:55 (EST)
From: srb...*<*
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: question
Message:
There is an e-mail nonpublic level and
also there is a paradise forum available
for forum staffers.

and JM the resident instructor is available for
private consultations on these issues.

Maybe Katie will escort you.
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Date: Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 00:38:54 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: question
Message:
Look.I've seen a lot of things, but can't yet discuss my analysis/two cents of what happened. Lot of conflicts- what else is new.

Please, only discuss what you feel comfortable discussing. There isn't any need to go beyond that, and I was just curious. Take your time. I know it isn't easy.

But I am interested. What do you feel conflicted about? There is SO much fear in the Maharaji world, and we internalized so much of it. I guess we each need to take one step at a time, but what I discovered is that when you dredge that fear up and stick it into the light of day it dies really fast and then you can get free from it. For me, all that internalized fear was really destructive. It kind of immobilized me and I had to work on getting rid of it. There are people here to support you. I wish there had been some support like this when I split in 1983.

If, in this forum, there will be an effort to dismantle M's org, which can be done, then so be it. Otherwise, what is being discussed? Kind of scares me.

I don't think there is any kind of effort to dismantle anything and I personally could care less whether Maharaji's financial empire crumbles of not. But I think it's important to get beyond all the fear and secrecy. That's how the cult survives. It's based on people being scared. But there isn't anything to be scared of. It's just cult programming. It's really an insidious thing and part of the reason it's so destructive.

Open discussion about what has gone on is very important. It's important for premies to know, it's also important for just ordinary people to know who might think about getting involved with Maharaji. It's also important for ex-premies who are trying to piece together a better understanding about what they were involved in.

Maharaji is such a revisionist liar, hiding his past, living in secrecy and, because of this intense fear, the premies are complicit in that. He shouldn't be allowed to get away with that, in my opinion, because he damages and has damaged real people who, with the information, can stand up for themselves. And I also think it's important for ex-premies to take their lives back, at least for me, by not letting him continue to influence my life.

I take it DECA couldn't meet its payroll at some point and the premies were upset. Is that why you had to guard the door?

When I was around DECA was mostly a slave-endeavor. Very few people were paid anything, mostly ashram premies working for free, day and night, just like Bill said. But I guess it became more of a 'business' at some point, I guess after I left Miami in 1981.

By the way, I HATED DECA with a passion. I feel sort of sick to my stomach just thinking about the weird vibe of that place. I can still smell the carpet in that 'satsang' hall they had there and I remember M coming there giving us satsang at Christmas, when he said if we lost our devotion to him we would go to hell. And , of course, I ate it all up. What a bastard. Het spewed fear and distrust of your own self, going all the way to the bank in the process. Really sick.

The best of luck to you dv -- be good to yourself.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 02:36:36 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: question
Message:
I tried but haven't figured out how to move your posts into my response- cut and paste don't work. Looking at what can be done from my perspective caused me to look at his family, who are innocent bystanders. Being a family man- (after all these years), created a conflict.

Posting stuff on this forum scares me from a legal standpoint- although why should I care? long as no one can trace me, which probably can be done quite easily. Brian? A thread on 'internet law' might be helpful.

If you want to stop m from hurting more people, one very effedctive way may be to crumble his financial empire. The media may or may not work.

We printed the checks. The first two that would come out were mine and my compatriot. Then one of us would zoom to the bank to cash them. Then, we would print out the remaining checks. I assume some checks didn't clear- could care less at the time.

I remember Chuck Stark, safety officer for deca, personally expressing to me how serious the chemical toxin violation problem was. I probably just looked at him thinking 'duh, mus be da graze! MOOO!'
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 13:23:21 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: question
Message:
dv, do you have Netscape or IE?

In either case, you just highlight the section you want to respond to, and hit 'copy' under the edit category. Then place the cursor where you want the text to go and hit 'paste'. That way, you don't have to retype anything. I'm pretty dumb when it comes to this stuff myself, but Robyn is really good at it and she explained it so that even I could understand.

Posting stuff on this forum scares me from a legal standpoint- although why should I care? long as no one can trace me, which probably can be done quite easily. Brian? A thread on 'internet law' might be helpful.

dv, if you tell the truth, say what you saw, what you heard or what you were told, and give your own opinon and feelings about that stuff, no one has any legal claim against you. If it's the truth or your opinion, it is NOT slander. We have free speech in this country and you have every legal right to express your opinion. Maharaji is also a public figure, so he would have to overcome an incredibly high legal standard before he could accuse someone of invading his privacy. In my experience, the more you express your opinons, the quicker the fear goes away.

BTW, the likelihood of Maharaji and his minions coming after an ex-devotee for criticising him is approximately zero. Can you imagine the negative publicity that would generate for him? Here is the multi-millionaire lord of love cult leader, suing one of his own devotees for saying things he doesn't like. The press would LOVE that. I could see it on 60 Minutes, just like the Scientology expose.

Plus, can you imagine all the damaging testimony that would come out against him if that happened? He has a lot he needs to hide. The only mitigation against that is ex-premies willing to tell the truth. No, he has a LOT more to lose by such an endeavor, and, frankly, I would LOVE to see him do it, but I don't think we will ever have such luck.

We printed the checks. The first two that would come out were mine and my compatriot. Then one of us would zoom to the bank to cash them. Then, we would print out the remaining checks. I assume some checks didn't clear- could care less at the time.

I guess you are talking about Deca here. You mean to say that paychecks were printed, but there wasn't enough money in the account for them all to clear? I can see why you would run to the bank!

Regarding the toxin problem at DECA, when I was at DECA, my first job in the legal department was to work with Dade County and the State of Florida to get all the appropriate permits for DECA to function as a legal entity. So, being the good premie I was, I researched it thoroughly, and reported to the powers that be that DECA did not comply with OSHA regulations, was in violation of the law for not carrying workers' comp. insurance, would have to be inspected to be sure it met industrial safety standards, didn't have ANY of the appropriate licenses to even do business, let alone do aircraft work. It also employed a bunch of 'slaves' who weren't paid and that was illegal to. So, I presented my report to my superiors and complained that DECA wasn't doing anything to comply with the laws. Gues what. I got fired. I was told by Jim Hession (in somewhat couched terms) that I didn't know how to serve the lord and I was better off in a community somewhere. I was secretly delighted; I hated being at DECA and was glad to leave. Of course, then Dennis Marciniak, then president of DLM and a thoroughly decent person, made me the community coordinator in Miami, which I didn't want to do either, but it was better than Deca.

To be fair, there were people like Dennis and others in DLM who were very skeptical and worried about what was going on at DECA, and we were generally very wary of Hession and the other premies who ran the place, mostly because they seemed to have absolute power as given to them by Maharaji himself. This was especially true and more and more premies, including families, were called to Miami from communities around the country to work on the plane. That, and the huge financial cost, meant not much else happened in the Mission during that period. DECA became this huge black hole that millions of dollars was thrown into, much of it wasted, and we had to CONSTANTLY hit the premies up for money to keep it going, sometimes on an emergency basis, for money in CASH. If it weren't for the free labor, DECA wouldn't have survived 10 minutes.

At the same, time Maharaji was bad-mouthing DLM right and left, so a good devotee didn't say much discouraging about a project Maharaji was obviously so personally involved in.

By the way, before it was called DECA, it was 'IMMCO' which we in DLM said stood for 'In My Mind Company!'

Yeah, I remember. 'Grace' was the excuse for a multitude of atrocities in Maharaji's world.
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Date: Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 14:07:26 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: question
Message:
dv,
I doubt that anything we say or do is going to bring down Maharaji. I know some people here would like that, but I don't see that as the main goal of the forum. I think if what you have to say can help someone else to see the truth about the man and his organization, that is good enough.

Anyway, deal those cards only when you are ready. Inquiring minds want to know-snicker!
VP
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 02:51:53 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Thank You
Message:
I first I agreed with you, then started to think about it. I don't know what exactly you mean by 'bring M down', but isn't prevention better than the cure?

You're probably right though- the main goal of this forum should be helping people recover.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 08:10:11 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: Thank You
Message:
What I meant was, I think many people here would like to see Maharaji's cult disappear forever. I would, but I don't see that as the main goal of the forum, I don't know if the forum could ever be powerful enough to do that. (I could be wrong about that.)

I think that the forum can show some people truths that can help them if they are unhappy and want out. Anyone who has information that can help other people see truth about Maharaji (sounds like you might) can speak up here and it helps others. If you are not ready to do that because you are still struggling with your own issues about Maharaji, I understand.

Did that answer your question?
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Date: Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 23:53:49 (EST)
From: bvd
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: question
Message:
Arthur Brigham also had trouble in thailand.
arrested for possessing too much pot.
Went to Jail there and so did his wife. I don't know
how long for.

Is lemon the security guy from england?
THAT head guy in england was a huge asshole and
VERY over reactive. I saw him oafishly have guys thrown
out of programs just because they went past the
the limits of thier status and went looking for seats
up in the front 100 rows.

At the event in miami where it was said that it was
'first come first served' I stayed up all night with
about 30 others and we were in the 40th row.
40 rows of 'upper dust'

The first 40 rows were for friends of the inner service circle
and were a security buffer. Who was the threat?
Just part of that grandiosity.
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Date: Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 02:40:26 (EST)
From: chr
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: question
Message:
Hi JW,
Thanks for your reply. Quite a few companies were set up in different countries .They had different names ,but the idea was to give the impression that they were legitimate ,longstanding security companies. They did other things, such as sell surveillance cameras, to enhance the deception.It was all incredibly secret- we actually did 'training' in a motel for six weeks and for a while we lived in a special ashram that everyone knew was for something special and secret, but nobody was told exactly what.I was in the US during the DECA thing ,but the whole security thing happened after the plane was finished.It was the constant lies to airport officials and customs people that really began bothering me. Also, I saw the M that premies dont see at programmes-spoilt,volatile,incessantly demanding and as somebody in the same position as me said,disturbed.Some things that I could talk about involve names who I dont feel right mentioning unless they decide to post themselves. One was a long time initiator -in the batch that came after Ira woods,arthur brigham etc. She may post here soon-I am still in contact with her but she has mixed feelings of loyalty for M despite being cast off and treated abominably.It takes a long time to get all this stuff out of ones system.
chr
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Date: Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 04:30:27 (EST)
From: chr
Email: None
To: chr
Subject: question
Message:
I feel I need add some more to the previous post.In all fairness I also saw times when M was jovial,lighthearted and fun. He always seemed a contradiction and his moods were unpredictable. I have a problem mentioning names because some of these initiators and others close to M were left in a kind of twilight zone for a long time in the 80s.. It was very painful for them and some of them are still confused.Telling stories about them over the net could possibly add to their pain.
Now, I must admit I'm a bit of a hypocrite when it comes to telling stories about Gurucharanand,Jagdeo and Padarthanand--I feel quite comfortable plastering their names all over the net.
I also was called several weeks early to Hans jayanti in 78. I was there to help feed the guys building the residence. We worked around the clock and I have vague memories of feeding exhausted premies at three in the morning.
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Date: Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 13:15:44 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: chr
Subject: question
Message:
chr, thanks so much for your response to my questions. I was heavily involved in the organization of DLM and EV, and I was at Deca for a time, but I never otherwise worked in close proximity to the lord of the universe. In listening to people like you talk about what it was like to do so, I am very grateful that never happened to me on a regular basis.

You said:

the idea was to give the impression that they were legitimate ,longstanding security companies. They did other things, such as sell surveillance cameras, to enhance the deception.It was all incredibly secret-...It was the constant lies to airport officials and customs people that really began bothering me.

Did anyone explain to you, or was there some reasoning behind all this need for secrecy and deception when it came to security for Maharaji? Or was it just said that that was the way Maharaji wanted it? There did seem to be a lot of paranoia when it came to security. Did you have any understanding why all that was done?

I remember lots of secrecy surrounding finances, some of which I was privy to, including outright deception, like the fact that DLM was raising large amounts of money that went directly to Maharaji, which was illegal under the IRS laws, but I think that eventually got cleaned up. And I also remember there was even an attempt to hide what Deca was doing. Remember how we referred to Maharaji as 'the client?'

Also, I saw the M that premies dont see at programmes-spoilt,volatile,incessantly demanding and as somebody in the same position as me said,disturbed.

I saw some of this too, but only on a couple of occasions, but that was enough for me. And when he was in that tirade I mentioned earlier, he did seem, in retrospect, disturbed, but I wouldn't have allowed that thought to enter my mind at the time. And as you said below, sometimes he could seem so happy and nice. I think it was the unpredictability that was terrifying to me. You just didn't know what his particular mood might be, and you were at the complete mercy to whatever it was. There was no escape, no opportunity to defend yourself, you were completely vulnerable because you were his devotee, his property, you were his to do with as he pleased. It was very frightening in many respects. It was the ultimate authoritarian system, because even your thoughts were controlled, at least mine were, because we weren't supposed to have doubts.

I think I was instinctively repelled by some of Maharaji's more negative behavior I saw, so, although I was sometimes in a position to make it so I could be in close proximity to him, I usually didn't do it. I usually tried to just stay away. The whole milieu around his was just too weird. Maybe that's one of the reasons I was able to leave. Being around him didn't hold much attraction to me. Eventually, even at programs I couldn't relate to him at all. He just seemed more bizarre and strange. It was kind of a lonely feeling at the last couple of programs I went to, when it appeared that I was the only person in the hall who thought it was weird, pointless, boring, and a little scary.

Thanks again for your response. I think it's very helpful to know this stuff.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 03:05:30 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: question
Message:
My justification for security for m was to save his ass from the whole population on the planet WHO DIDN'T KNOW WHO HE WAS, on every level.

His justification is to save his ass, period.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 14:31:30 (EST)
From: chr
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: question
Message:
All we were told is that M wanted premies doing security on his precious plane. Obviously airports are pretty tight with their security and they dont just let anyone into restricted areas, so the security had to seem legitimate in the eyes of the authorities.Any contact with premies or idle talk about the service could blow the cover,so we were isolated for a while.
The time I spent doing security for M was mainly between 78 and 82. There are people on this forum, such as Mr. ex, who probably had closer and more constant contact ,but I saw enough to feel that in hindsight M had a lot of problems.
Security at the residence or on the plane was not the glamorous experience that most premies thought.Sometimes I was stuck at the front gate with virtually nothing to do for days .Night shift was the worst. I certainly wasnt having constant darshan .I might see M playing kites with Hansi or driving in and out. Most of the time he completely ignored the security people. What I found difficult is that most of the time I felt absolutely nothing when I saw him.In fact sometimes I felt a revulsion or that there was something really dark about him.When I saw him rant and rave--normally against Merino or some other premie close to him--it was unpleasant,sometimes ugly.I usually rationalised these situations as my problem. In 1975 I was doing security at a hotel that M was staying in. Large amounts of alcohol were brought up to the room.Other times at the residence there would be parties and I would hear Ms voice,loud ,raucous and drunk ,coming from the residence.Again I rationalised these events or put them in the too hard basket.
chr
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 15:30:11 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: chr
Subject: question
Message:
What I found difficult is that most of the time I felt absolutely nothing when I saw him. In fact sometimes I felt a revulsion or that there was something really dark about him.

This is so similar to what I felt. That's why I tried to stay away from him. Not only did I not feel anything around him, I felt a certain level of repulsion, except at programs, where I got off on the group high, the music and the hype.

Of course, I wasn't doing security so I could sort of manipulate things to try to stay away. I just found it too confronting that I really didn't like Maharaji and was not attracted to him, when I was supposed to be. I also blamed myself. You know, that old bullshit about Maharaji being a mirror and all. I thought I must be the scum of the earth to be in the presence of the lord god and not appreciate every precious second of it.

I even felt this going through darshan sometimes. Not only did Maharaji seem incredibly bored and put out to have to be sitting there having his feet kissed, there was also something 'dark' as you say about him. I just had a strong instinct to stay away from him, that he wasn't good news. This was in complete conflict with what I had been programmed to believe, that Maharaji was everything that was good and beautiful. It was a real struggle for me, and something I didn't dare express to other premies.

When I saw him rant and rave--normally against Merino or some other premie close to him--it was unpleasant,sometimes ugly.I usually rationalised these situations as my problem

I wonder whatever happened to Merino. So, what was Maharaji ranting and raving about? Could you hear what he was saying?

One occasion I remember most vividly, was one time at DECA, the premies were presenting the design for the stage to be built at Hans Jayanti in Orlando. He just hated the design, and when the premies suggested changes, he just got more and more pissed. Every suggestion was met with more anger. I was just there, and I had nothing to do with the stage design, but I found it very frightening and repulsive. The premies got more and more exasperated, as he got more and more pissed. It was absolutely impossible to please him, absolutely everything they tried to do was wrong, and yet the premies ONLY wanted to please him. It was like Maharaji thought the premies should be able to read his mind and do what he THOUGHT, even though he wasn't even capable of expressing what he DID want. It was either that, or he got some perverse enjoyment out of torturing and fucking with his premies, or maybe he was so miserable himself that he was just lashing out. Who knows, maybe he had a bad hangover.

The other occasion was in the Miami satsang hall, but it's a long story.

In 1975 I was doing security at a hotel that M was staying in. Large amounts of alcohol were brought up to the room. Other times at the residence there would be parties and I would hear Ms voice,loud,raucous and drunk ,coming from the residence.Again I rationalised these events or put them in the too hard basket

I had heard rumors around that time of Maharji's drinking problems, but I didn't believe them. It wasn't until after I left that I talked to someone I knew pretty well who spent time around Maharaji that I got confirmation. She was pretty upset by his drinking because she had grown up in a family with alcoholism present, was working through that herself, so was especially sensitive to Maharaji's drinking, which she said consisted of expensive cognac.

In fact, she decided to leave, and she said Maharaji invited her to a party, was drinking heavily and asked her to dance. She said she danced with him, but felt she was being manipulated by him to get her to stay, and felt she couldn't trust him in the least. She did leave and didn't want anything to do with him after that.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 02:59:25 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: bvd
Subject: question
Message:
Arthur went to jail? NOOOO! I always liked the guy for his irreverent humor. He was one of the original seven( Joan, Bill, Ira, can't remember the other three), wasn't he? I think Lemon was in England- I know he was in one of the first videos. I learned how to seriously kiss ass around him- got a lot a sweet posts front and backstage...
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Date: Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 09:58:37 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: Protech memories
Message:
Hey DV:

Protech was my final stop on my cult tour of duty, and I might owe my departure from the cult to Lemon. It might have been his screaming at me that made me finally wake up and see what an idiot I was to be dedicating my life to a guru who clearly did not have a clue.

At Protech Lemon had this tiny office, I swear it was the size of a closet that they crammed a desk into. He would bring the sales staff in there, me and two other guys, and we'd be huddled in there with no room to even turn around, and he'd scream at us for 15 minutes about how the guru's entire mission was dependent on our ability to go out there and sell security systems.
Me and the two other sales guys would fight to try to get into the office first, because the last one in had to stand two inches from Lemon, and thus be sprayed with spittle while Lemon screamed.
All my effort, when listening to him, went into trying to keep a straight face.
On the one hand, I have fond memories of working and living with everyone in the cult. If I met one of them on the street I'd want to give them a big hug. But, let's face it, we were under the spell of a very strange set of beliefs, mainly we had to deal with a guru who demanded we surrender everything to him. So that colors my memories with a very sad tinge. I was mistaken, I was deceived. Sure, I've recovered. I can laugh about it, but still I'm angry at the guru for being such an ass hole. Just like I'd be angry at anyone who lied to me.
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Date: Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 12:16:55 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Protech memories
Message:
That's funny and poignant, John. Good to hear from you. As a 1973 vintage Canadian premie I knew the name 'Lemon' but couldn't tell you exactly who he was or anything. 'Some big shot English premie' would be about it. Is this guy still with the guru? Aw, who cares? Just something to ask, I guess.
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Date: Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 13:19:35 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: gossip is good!
Message:
Thanks Jim.
The Lemon I knew was from Philadelphia, not England. His real name was not something any of us were ever supposed to say out loud in public. I kid you not. Next to the word paranoid in the dictionary they ought to put this guy's picture.

I like talking about people because the guru did not encourage it. After all, it took the focus away from him!
The guru did not want us to have friends or meaningful relationships.
Jeez, what an ass hole!
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Date: Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 14:32:00 (EST)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: John
Subject: gossip is good!
Message:
I think Lemon's original name was something like Steve Moskowitz. Tall dark haired guy with glasses. Always nervous and appeared stressed out. His satsangs were very 'speedy', rambling run-ons. Lemon was big on 'security'.

Yes, I knew Lemon from Philadelphia. I think before that he was in New York. Lemon left Philadelphia in '78. He sold me a funky stereo system before he left. I made the mistake of trusting him 'cause he was a premie. Ripped me off.
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Date: Wed, Dec 02, 1998 at 00:29:46 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: bobby
Message:
Hi Bobby,
Happy holidays.
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Date: Wed, Dec 02, 1998 at 07:36:38 (EST)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: bobby
Message:
Hi Bill
Happy holidays to you too
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 03:12:23 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: John
Subject: gossip is good!
Message:
You thought you knew why Steve Moscowitz was called Lemon the first time you saw him, you realized how off you were the first time he talked to you!

I always saw you as the the most analytical of the group at protech- congratulations for being astute and brave enough to leave when you did.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 11:16:33 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: Hey no fair!
Message:
You know who I am but I don't know who you are. How about a hint?

I understand perfectly your reluctance to plaster your name all over the web; however, this is truly in pursuit of truth, you know?

All I really see happening here is we are loudly proclaiming that the emporer had/has no clothes on. It's so amazing that we actually lived through a modern day version of that silly fairy tale. Who would have thunk it?

I remember a lot of M's stories that he would tell us which described how bad and evil THE MIND was. What's interesting is that they actually were describing HIM! Like the train that you get on thinking it will actually take you somewhere and then you eventually end up out in some desert. Supposedly M was saying that's what you would get from following a career. But really he was describing perfectly the guru worship trip!

Or the analogy of the guru's boat. In actual fact submitting one's will and life to the guru is just like allowing yourself to be devoured by sharks. Why? Because your true self inside will get so torn apart by the idiocy of it that it will never stop objecting and tormenting you. Getting away from guru worship is just like climbing out of the water which has the sharks in it onto dry land - which is your own common sense, mind, brain, free will, sense of individuality, etc.

I think that by submitting ourselves to the guru we were trying to commit suicide. We wanted to pretend we were not alive anymore, hence we broke off old family relationships, obliterated our desires, because of course that's what the guru was telling us was required.

I swear in retrospect I feel like I fought the devil. I won because I got away. I am free! I can thumb my nose at M and his silly ideas and claims and go on my merry way and truly 'enjoy my life'.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 15:36:55 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Hey no fair!
Message:
Hint- I had the collapsed lung.
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 10:10:07 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: Hey no fair!
Message:
You had a collapsed lung? And you think I knew that?

Well, I got news for you brother, I was a very devoted premie, I was not paying attention to the trials and tribulations of my poor deluded brothers and sisters, hence I was not aware someone had a collapsed lung.

I do remember a guy I played tennis with, and I used to beat him every time by the way, having to go into the hospital, and I did visit him there, but I can't remember what was wrong with him. But if you are that guy, then I knew you in D.C., right?

Try another hint.
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Date: Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 13:26:42 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Lemon
Message:
Lemon, oh yes, Lemon. Whatever happaned to that intense maniac. By the way Lemon, if you are reading this, that 'security system' you put into the satsang hall in Miami never worked right. Also, I think you still owe me $2.00. Now, with interest over 20 years, that comes to.....

From my perspective, I always thought you guys over at Protech seemed like one big happy family serving the lord (and better living) through security devices. Little did I know......

By the way. Did you ever get to tell Lemon what you thought of him?

But, John, I agree. Some of the premies I knew in the cult, were some of the finest people I have met in my life. Many were fine people. They were just ensnared in the same deception I was.
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Date: Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 14:45:54 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Lemon
Message:
'By the way. Did you ever get to tell Lemon what you thought of him?'
No, but since he prided himself on how unpopular he was, I would not have wanted to give him that satisfaction.

One big happy family? More like one big dysfunctional family. We lived and worked with each other for 7 days a week and had satsang together, we were not allowed to talk or have contact with 'community premies', supposedly the guru's orders. It was probably just Lemon's paranoid vision of guru dedication. I seriously doubt the guru ever thought about us longer than it took him to look at the bottom line and see how much money we were bringing in. We all rode around in pretty nice vehicles and equipment and tools were expensive, I really doubt we made much profit at all. But, I've been wrong before. I remember the security branch of the operation which was just security guards was definetly profitable.

One nice thing was that the boys and girls lived together. And the girls were all extremely attractive!! Or was I just incredibly horny? I think I've already told the story of when I came home in the middle of the day and Beth was in her bathing suit vacuuming.
And she wanted me to look very carefully at her rear end to see if the bathing suit was showing too much skin.
Oh yeah, some days were definetly better than others.
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Date: Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 21:45:46 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Beth? Did you say Beth?
Message:
I think I've already told the story of when I came home in the middle of the day and Beth was in her bathing suit vacuuming.

Is that Beth the brunette from Philly? We got into a bit of a vulcan mind meld doing service together at the heavy Kissimee program (the one where everyone wanted to split). God, here I am talking about yet another premie girl I wanted. But Beth was really cute and yes, there was something there. I was, after all, IN CHARGE of all the on site premie maintenance places. You know.

God, I wish I wasn't such a straight shooter back then! I'd probably be happy as hell to have been a premie if only I'd not taken the trip so seriously and got laid a bit. There's my theory of mind control in a nutshell (NPI).
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Date: Wed, Dec 02, 1998 at 10:20:09 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: further fables of frustration
Message:
Believe it or not, I think Brunette Beth was from Philly!

Hey, if I'm wrong someone correct me, Beth, Lemon, anyone out there?

There's gotta be someone else from Protech around.

Jim, you didn't sound like such a straight shooter, squeezing female clown's breasts!

I remember once I gave a ride home from satsang to a woman visiting from somewhere, and when I dropped her off at the hotel she squeezed my hand and stared into my eyes and started giving me hot and heavy satsang about how we're just supposed to be happy and free and we can do whatever the 'fuck' we want...
And she accented strongly and lingered longingly on the word 'fuck', and I swear I knew at that moment that all I had to do was park the car and walk up with her to her room.
But, I was an idiot straight-shooting-ashram-premie, and I just said good night.
AHHHHHHHHHRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Date: Wed, Dec 02, 1998 at 22:56:30 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: John
Subject: further fables of frustration
Message:
And yet another primal scream reverberates through the corridors of our collective memories
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 03:17:32 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Gossip time
Message:
Yes, Beth was was one Lemons officially recognized ashram mistresses. And there were more........
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Date: Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 14:46:14 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: JW/chr/John/dv
Subject: JIM read this.This thread...
Message:
...is verrrry interesting. Man, this goes so deep into the corruption of GM. I just can't believe he got so much cooperation and collusion fm people. The secret-keeping and fear are amazing to me. Most of us were never at the center of things--I always had this vague notion of pure Maharaji letting his devotees worship him, give him stuff, etc. This is more like organized crime, JW carried out by mostly good sincere people.This is amazing
Jim don't you think a class action suit could be carried out by those injured by the dangerous handling of chemicals on the plane project or do you think someone else would get the blame (beside GM)?
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Date: Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 20:21:19 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: No class action, I'm afraid
Message:
Won't work for all the reasons so nicely explained previously by one Joseph Whalen:

1) Too vague Causes of Action
2) Statute of Limitations problems
3) Too varied grievances and plaintiff pool
4) Costs
5) Likelihood of getting past summary judgement

Now if the IRS knew about some of these shenanigans.....
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Date: Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 21:32:47 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: No cult and no action
Message:
Wouldnt people who were seriously injured be able to sue or is that a statue of limitations thing?
Seems like they could curse seven generations of BM's children.
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Date: Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 21:47:58 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: No cult and no action
Message:
Wouldnt people who were seriously injured be able to sue or is that a statue of limitations thing?

Statute of Limitations unless they could prove the defendant prevented them from realizing their injury somehow or they were otherwise unable to reasonably detect it over all these years. Sounds pretty uphill to me.
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Date: Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 20:28:57 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: safety at DECA....
Message:
why were there no safety precautions taken at DECA? was everybody in a hurry trying to please Maharaji? i find it hard to believe that he would intentionally set up people he needed to get sick and die by giving directions that no safety precautions be followed...
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Date: Wed, Dec 02, 1998 at 00:15:05 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: safety at DECA....
Message:
hey sheep,

drip, drip, drip, huh?
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Date: Wed, Dec 02, 1998 at 09:26:12 (EST)
From: Orlando
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: shp is no SHP.
Message:
come on, shp,
whoever you are, you are not the same person who was posting as SHP
why do you pretend to be the same person?
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Date: Wed, Dec 02, 1998 at 15:14:53 (EST)
From: shp/SHP
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: shp is no SHP.
Message:
i am in fact the same person. why do you question this?
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Date: Wed, Dec 02, 1998 at 16:36:38 (EST)
From: Orlando
Email: None
To: shp/SHP
Subject: you are?
Message:
sigh...
i am disapointed...
i found you more 'spunky' under the other name. you seem to have undergone a major personality change...too bad...i liked the SHP better...
never mind
sorry for doubting your identity
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Date: Wed, Dec 02, 1998 at 16:52:50 (EST)
From: shp (lower case = easy)
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: change is inevitable in life
Message:
orlando,

who are you, man?

i will only be the same forever when i am dead and even then my body and ethers and soul will be changing...the only thing constant seems to be the process called life and the knowledge to appreciate it in its essence.

there's a time to be spunky and a time to shut up and listen and express empathy and compassion if that is what we feel. we humans have to be multi-faceted if we want to communicate, ya know?
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 09:35:12 (EST)
From: Orlando
Email: None
To: shp (lower case = easy)
Subject: you see?
Message:
here you go, spunky again!
the 'who are you, man' is definitely SHP (or shp)
alright, enough said...
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Date: Wed, Dec 02, 1998 at 00:50:58 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: safety at DECA....
Message:
One day a black friend from the SF bay area
was part of our crew painting a plane at the hanger.
He ran out the big doors and threw off the mask
that had cartridges that never got changed and
gasped for breath and said 'god help me'

Turned out that god was standing close by and
it got us a new ventilation system for when we sprayed.

I worked on the DECA/CRA construction crew and one time they were
taking a large commercial oven out of a place and
it was heavy so they were dismantleing it and it had one foot
thick walls of powdered asbestos in it.
I kid you not.
They had younger guys hired from the town shoveling it
and so I protested and got nowhere and went to
prem rawats house and wrote a note telling what was
going on and that I was going to call the authorities
and it might come back on prem rawat so they had
better step in and do something. I handed it to
some security honcho.
They did upgrade the scene but it was still a disaster.
time for bed
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 14:24:44 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: safety at DECA....
Message:
SHP: It IS hard to believe, isn't it? Do the words, 'he doesn't give a damn' mean anything? You could easily say the same things about slavery here. You would think that the salve-owners would have valued their 'possessions' quite highly since they paid so much for them. But, check it out, they didn't give much of a damn, either (and they PAID for those slaves!). M's slaves come free-of-charge. In fact, his slaves beg him to let them serve his every whim. What a racket!
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 16:05:37 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: safety at DECA....
Message:
You said:
Do the words, 'he doesn't give a damn' mean anything?

I say:
i find those words very hard to believe about Maharaji and the premies, especially the ones who seem to have dedicated the most of thier time and energies.

You said:
M's slaves come free-of-charge. In fact, his slaves beg him to let them serve his every whim. What a racket!

I say:
there's a difference between folks who want to dedicate their lives to someone or a cause and folks who are being forced to work against their will, called slaves. are you implying they were enslaved by a superior mentalist kind of power or something? we all need to be vigilant and pray for a clear vision of who or what to follow, inner or outer...if we find we are at a dead end, we must shift into reverse and continue our journey without wasting a move, time is precious. no time or need for blame or praise for doing it 'right or wrong'.
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 10:02:21 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: safety at DECA....
Message:
shp: Yes, I am saying that they are under the power of a 'superior' mentalist. I think that M knows exactly which 'buttons' to press and exactly when to press them. When he was a child, others were pressing the buttons for him. He's a grown man, now. I am pretty sure that he has read much on the subject of brainwashing and is likely an avid reader of the Guru papers. Even though those papers were meant to dispel the illusion of gurus, it can also be a great blueprint for someone that wants to be one (or continue being one).

shp, I know that this is hard to take and hard to believe, but people can be THAT bad. One look at Adolf Hitler and his history SHOULD convince anyone that it is more than possible. I am not saying that M is Adolf; just that the same 'techniques' for recruitment are being used (promises and fear). You know, Hitler was an AVID reader of spiritual material (particularly eastern stuff). Do you think that maybe that's where he got some of his ideas concerning 'mind control?' Think about it.... The average guy in Germany thought that Adolf was the 'savior' of Germany. How in the heck did this lunatic accomplish this feat?

My point concerning slaves was one of 'attitude.' Even though southern land owners PAID big bucks for their slaves, they treated them like dirt. M has paid nothing for his, so they are of even less value to him. Why should he care a whit if someone gets hurt from using DEADLY chemicals to refurbish/build his own personal airplane? Sorry, but this one story should have prompted him to scrap the project entirely and to chide ANYONE that was in the hierarchy. He should have come unglued. He should have paid for this premie's hardship forever! I WOULD HAVE! I WOULD HAVE BEEN SO PISSED... Well, enough about how I would have reacted! But M did nothing, apparently. Instead, he is flying that very same airplane. Do I hold him personally responsible for his LACK of action? YOU BET!
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Date: Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 22:06:07 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: JIM read this.This thread...
Message:
This is more like organized crime

Helen,
I've recommended this book a couple of times, but I don't remember whether or not you were here yet. If you think this is interesting, you may want to read the book Three Continents. (I think Katie has it?) Sometimes art imitates life.
VP
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Date: Wed, Dec 02, 1998 at 22:47:27 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: VP/Katie
Subject: 3 continents
Message:
Thanks Veep. KT is that the book about cults that you told me about that's out of print or hard to find?
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 15:29:48 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: 3 continents
Message:
Yes, but it's fiction. I don't have a copy, but I think Gerry, Carol (she has mine), and Robyn (she has my copy #2) do. Drop me a line if you'd like me to try and rustle one up for you. (It's also available at powells.com, which is an on-line bookstore that sells USED books. Great for those of us out in the boonies.)
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 17:15:04 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: chr, dv, RT, JW, bb, John
Subject: Thanks for this thread
Message:
I really appreciate it that you all are willing to come forward and speak about some of these things (I hope I didn't leave anyone off the list above). I know it's difficult for some of you - maybe for all. There are people who know about this site and know a whole lot about M's inner organization who have a lot of difficulty posting here - either because they just want to forget about the whole thing, or because it's painful for them to deal with those memories (or both).

VP and dv were having a conversation about the purpose of this forum. I don't know if the material that's posted here could ever bring Maharaji down, and frankly, that's not my purpose here. I think it's really important to get the truth about what REALLY happened to us out into the open. If that turns some people away from Maharaji, then so be it. I would also hope that it will help the people who post and read here.

Thanks again, all of you.

P.S. JW, thank you for that post on obtaining the permits for DECA. This is something I have worked on in other jobs (I have always worked in the public sector, though, so we HAD to have the correct permits). Your post helped me understand a lot more about the mentality of the whole DECA operation (I wrote a post called 'Understanding DECA' above - I do want to put together some coherent explanation, which I hope will eventually find its way to a page on the site).
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 23:52:45 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Thanks for this thread
Message:
Material posted here (in public) will probably not 'bring him down', and as VP and I discussed, this forum seems to be better served helping ex-premie hatchlings, like me.

Someone above mentioned to me about 'other' forums more dedicated to the issues previously discussed. I wasn't surprised. And sometimes I feel that he should be thrown out of the country like I feel some other people should be.

On the other hand, there are a lot of people I have met who's sole intention is to rip people off for their money. In my experience, I have tended to drop my rabid counterattacks due to lack of energy, time, interest, too much stress, and desire for quality of life, and eventually watched most of those persons bring themselves down.

As Jim said, his dealings are safe, 'FOR NOW'.
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Date: Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 00:28:39 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: Is it worth it?
Message:
I received the following via the Feedback form:

is there a way to knowledge without maharaji i meditated long ago but didn't

I sent the questioner an email response saying I'd post the question here on the forum.

When I wrote the Monkey Trap explaination on the home page, I had a conversation with someone before it officially went online. He felt that I should change the word trinket to reflect a value that he felt he got out of Knowledge. He suggested prize instead.

I asked him if he felt that it was valuable enough that he would recommend it to anyone. He said he wouldn't if they had to go through what he went through as a result.

Now I'm throwing the question out to you people. Would you recommend Maharaji or anyone else as a source for Knowledge? Is it worth it?
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Date: Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 02:55:47 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Brian
Subject: Is it worth it?
Message:
Even when I was a premie living in an ashram I was loath to get anyone involved into what was for me, a very heavy trip. I remember thinking that other people wouldn't want to go through all this severity and inhuman philosophy.

The trip stunk and it was staring me in the face, even then. But I really believed Maharaji was the Lord come to save mankind, so I just got on with it. I think that meditation on its own is a neutral thing and taken away from Maharaji's bullshit philosophy, it can benefit some people who want to get into it. But Maharaji's trip is very, very different and I wouldn't advise anyone to get into it. A pretend Lord is still an illusion. Not the real thing.
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Date: Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 07:45:13 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Is it worth it?
Message:
Well, feeling your breath has some merit.
Although I'm reluctant to add any commentary to what
the merit is except that it can make help you be stoic
yet comfortable in life's many stressful moments.

It doesn't make you stoic perhaps, but if you are trying to
just ride out other peoples aggravated moments without
responding in kind, feeling your breath can help you
keep disengaged from the feeling that the other person
is feeling and assists in any effort I make to not feed
aggravation back to the person or feel it myself very much.

Of course, somehow shp says that it gives 'the understanding
of the creator' which he has yet to elaborate on or be honest
about.

Getting the suggestion about 'hey feel your breath'
could be from any source but true to human style,
anything having to do with 'life' or 'god' is a favorite
tool used by the tyrants of all stripes to control, abuse,
and tell us how to live, eat, what to wear, what to do on sundays
or fridays or what rock is the one to bow to 5 times a day.

I recommended maharaji as a source-THE source of
breath for years to no avail. He is impossible to work
for as a salesman. You get them all worked up and they
come to him and that's the last you see of them.

Tell us how successful YOU are shp.
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Date: Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 12:37:44 (EST)
From: RT
Email: mmmmmmmmmm
To: all
Subject: Is CHIT worth it? PROOF
Message:
Proof is in the ex-premie.org posting of the techniques:
The story will now be told.

1/ My girlfiend of 3 years is an ex-aspirant. She quit the Knowledge selection process 2 years ago because the aspirants in the selection process were 'like zombies', not 'happy' and morose. The VIP premie doing the lecturing in the conference room 'was heavy', and so she felt uncomfortable and walked out. She said to me 'these people know God? These people are supposed to be happy?' Note: she works in business and meets dozens of people a day on the phone and in person, works in a big city, and knows what decent friendly human contact is.

2/ In July of 98 I printed out the 4 techniques in response to her asking, many times. Yesterday she told me she enjoyed them, them made her day go nice, she remembers crying-twice-at the feeling inside her..but quit after a few weeks due to the hassle of getting up an hour early in a day with a 2 hour round trip commute. She tried to Practise at nite but fell asleep. Now she does basic yoga positions instead. And I can tell, she looks great: 5'9, 130 lbs.

3/ Yesterday she told me that since I quit the cult: I am more focussed, able to deal with reality better; that I listen and respond better; that she always had a feeling that I was not all there, like I was behind a wall inside myself, and that I seem happier. She is glad, I am content. I am relieved to not have to pester her about evening programs, or to disapear and cancel dates. Consequently, the dinners and sex is great!

best regards-

RT - who has been wanting to write this for a year.

Todays thought: people who live in bookcases shouldn't throw tomes.
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Date: Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 13:44:45 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: RT
Subject: Is CHIT worth it? PROOF
Message:
Dear RT -
Thank you very much for that story. Some people have said that all we do on this site is complain and that people never get anywhere. Stories like yours are very inspiring, and do make me feel that the work we are doing here is helping people. I am glad to hear that you are happier, and that your relationship is better (your girlfriend must have been quite patient, but it sounds like it was worth it for both of you!).

Take care, and thanks again, RT!
KT
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Date: Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 22:45:48 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: RT
Subject: Is CHIT worth it? PROOF
Message:
Great post, RT!!!
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Date: Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 00:49:16 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: RT
Subject: Is CHIT worth it? PROOF
Message:
Dear RT,
God that was such a great post! Glad you finally got to write it. Much happiness to you and your lady.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 18:31:19 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: RT
Subject: Is CHIT worth it? PROOF
Message:
RT:

Thanks so much for writing that post. And good for your girlfriend for using her BRAIN and common sense to see through the aspirant process. I think some people, including me when I got involved, had such a huge need for approval and nned to conform, they we overlooked the obvious contradictions among the 'aspirants' and those who were 'instructing' them. It's also great to have someone in your life to give you feedback, so you can tell you are really changing.
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Date: Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 15:10:31 (EST)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Is it worth it?
Message:
If it is going to work for you, and we know how rare that really is, Mr (....) is a complete irrelevance.
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Date: Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 15:33:49 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Is it worth it?
Message:
In my opinion, it definitely is NOT worth it. I would not recommend it to anyone.

I found the meditation to be nice sometimes, but the cost of being involved with an authoritarian, deluded, megalomaniac like Maharaji is way too high. You'd be better off going to some Yoga meditation group, or practicing some form of self-help meditation that might make you calmer and more centered in your life.

It's very hard to just take the meditation techniques and not get involed in the cult-worship that Maharaji is about. The aspriant process conditions someone to accept the 'gratitude' and 'master' trips which are pretty damaging, as evidenced by the what people who post here say.

If people receive knowledge these days without ashrams and communitites, and don't give money, don't get involved in the organization, maybe go to programs once in a while, there might not be much damage on a material level, but I think the stuff Maharaji talks about, his 'mind/knowledge' and 'mind/heart' duality along with his disdain for doing anything whatsoever to improve the condition of the world, are repugnant and harmful, per se, to many people.
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Date: Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 15:57:26 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Is it worth it?
Message:
It's very hard to just take the meditation techniques and not get involed in the cult-worship that Maharaji is about. The aspriant process conditions someone to accept the 'gratitude' and 'master' trips which are pretty damaging, as evidenced by the what people who post here say.

Exactly, JW. After I received K, even though I wasn't enjoying the experience I had hoped for, I still felt guilty for not feeling gratitude for this 'precious gift' I had received. There's a lot more than a few meditation techniques being taught by M. There's a healthy dose of cult programming that goes with it, too. You can't get around that and it could take years to come to your senses after that programming is in place. In fact, without the assistance of others, you might never come to your senses. I wouldn't recommend Maharji or Knowledge to anybody.
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Date: Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 16:49:35 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Here, here JW (nt)
Message:
'nuf said...
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Date: Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 19:45:11 (EST)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Brian and enquirer
Subject: Fuck no, absolutely not!
Message:
No. Bottom line is that premiedom is a cult, and unless you enjoy cult-life, steer clear. Maybe its not a communal hidden-away-from-society-Waco-cult, but a mental cult nevertheless with a dictatorial megalomaniac tycoon in charge. I was initially attracted by the meditation part of it and was still quite wary of Maharaji when I first went along, and yet through the sheer manipulative mind-fucking aspirant process, ended up a codependent with the pseudo living Lord and went about changing my life, my career, my city and the closeness of my family relationships so I could do 'service' and commit myself properly to the practice of Knowledge. I had dysfunctional old premies as my example of how to enjoy the 'World of Knowledge' and thought they were true spiritual beings. Thanks to this website which was like a cyber wet-fish in the face, I was able to get out and resume my life after 4 years of freaky diversion.

Despite having had some nice times with Knowledge, I am still too scarred from the rest of the trip to even think of trying it again. It's too wrapped up in all the yuk for me to think too independently about it. I don't want to be too judgemental about K as I can't really think objectively about it, but I will say that I actually believe that too much meditation, like anything, is not good for you.

If you want Knowledge and Knowledge alone, I think it is extremely risky to try and think that you can go through the aspirant process, get Knowledge and bugger off after receiving it. Due to my age and having seen a lot of the exposes on gurus and cults from the 60s/70s I thought I would be able to spot a cult a mile away, but to give M his credit, he is much more savvy than a lot of the other gurus and has changed and manipulated the trip enough, so as to avoid premiedom having any outward cult appearance. The premies inside, like many average Germans in Hitler's time, in their brainwashed state, help him perpetuate such deception, by eliminating all cult-like references to him (see enjoyinglife.org expose). I don't think they're entirely conscious that they do it, it's just a habit. For example my partner and I would come back from a program raving to each other about the darshan we'd just had, and then non-premie friends would ask us how it was, and we would never ever mention that we'd just kissed the guys feet. All we'd say was the usual 'The event was so beautiful' gushy crap.
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Date: Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 00:47:21 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: TD, Don't Mince Words --
Message:
Just say it, TD. God, it really bugs me when people beat around the bush, try to be diplomatic, and don't just say what they think!!!

Great post, TD.
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Date: Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 22:45:02 (EST)
From: TD
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: TD, Don't Mince Words --
Message:
I try JW, I really do, but no matter how hard I try, my posts always end up so ambiguous and vague. I think its because of that ongoing battle between my mind and my heart, my mind and my heart, my mind and my heart, my mind and my heart....
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Date: Wed, Dec 02, 1998 at 17:30:21 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: I Was Kidding!!!
Message:
TD, your post couldn't be clearer and to the point. I was just kidding you that your 'fuck no, absolutely not' title was so 'right out there.' Well done.
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 04:23:09 (EST)
From: TD
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: I know you were!!!!
Message:
I was just kidding back...!!
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Date: Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 12:24:58 (EST)
From: RT
Email: Catchup or mustarded?...
To: TD
Subject: TD^....Just Said Know!
Message:
TD realized:

It's too wrapped up in all the yuk for me to think too
independently about it.


AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH! It's too much to handle! Y2K -and- YUK!
What to Do?

I think I'll become a Zen Hot Dog Vendor and beat everybody to .....the Lunch Line!

RT
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Date: Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 20:02:10 (EST)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Is it worth it?
Message:
Would you recommend Maharaji or anyone else as a source for Knowledge?

Apart from my initial enthusiasm back in the 70s I have never encouraged any of my close friends or family to check out M and his Knowledge. As a matter of fact I kept it a closely guarded secret even from my husband to whom I have been married for 17 years. He only found out when an old premie friend renewed contact with me about 4 years ago and happened to spill the beans. To say the least he was not amused. I might also add that this same premie got me hooked all over again and I began subscribing to EV and buying M's videos and audios, all of which I have concealed from my husband. Until I found this site I thought that I had my Maharaji addiction under control by constantly telling myself that I was not really involved because I kept my distance from EV and anyone in it. I would definitely not recommend this sort of mind torture to anyone. But I also think that there are positives to be had from meditation, afterall it is recommended for cancer sufferers and other seriously ill people but it does not need to be boxed and gift-wrapped with a perfect master to whom you must give your all.

I would also like to say that I find it a little bit daunting contributing an opinion amongst so many of you who are so knowledgeable about DLM and EV amd GM and who have had personal contact with him. I have never had any contact with GM. However I hope that occasionally I will be able to contribute something worthwhile.
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Date: Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 22:17:22 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: Is it worth it?
Message:
Liz, I for one have liked your posts since the beginning
don't hesitate to chime in.
I know others feel the same.
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Date: Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 18:33:44 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: To Liz
Message:
I would also like to say that I find it a little bit daunting contributing an opinion amongst so many of you who are so knowledgeable about DLM and EV amd GM and who have had personal contact with him. I have never had any contact with GM. However I hope that occasionally I will be able to contribute something worthwhile.

Dear Liz -
I am in the same boat as you - I have never had contact with GM except in the darshan line, never lived in the ashram, and so forth. I got Knowledge in 1972, so I do know a bit about what happened back then, but I have learned a lot more from friends and from the people on this site. Many of us who post here were just garden variety premies - including me and Brian.

I have liked your posts a lot and look forward to hearing more from you.

Take care,
Katie
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Date: Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 20:39:51 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Sure. Why not?
Message:
After chatting with premies here for a few years I've learned a lot. Not so much in the words but in the feelings of gratitude behind them. No, I can't see how turning someone on to Maharaji could hurt. Not really.

For one thing, even if Maharaji's a gopher-faced hamster, he talks about love and love's never a bad thing. In fact, I'd say, it's the only thing that there's just too little of. Maharaji loves to feel love and his followers love to feel his love so they can express his love back to them. There's a lot of love happening and anyone who even walked into the hall is bound to feel it.

Even the videos are full of love. If you have a good VCR and not one of those old cheap jobbies, you can sometimes feel little bits of love right off the set. Try it. Put a Maharaji video on and turn off the volume. Set aside your preconceptions, your thoughts AND your concepts. Then get rid of your ideas about how things should be. Stare at the set for a few moments (usually fifteen minutes per video) and tell me you don't feel something. If you're thirsty enough, sincerely thirsty enough, you will. Trust me. Believe me, that's a feeling of gratitude you can only have courtesy of the greatest giver. Maharaji's gift is so sweet, it's the life of this love which is love itself.

So what if they ask for a few bucks every now and then? It's not as if he hasn't shown you the greatest love and secret of love inside. Who else explained to you that the universe operates on a need-to-know basis? Who else, in fact, taught you that the CREATOR treats your thoughts the way the U.S. military treats homosexual inclinations? Keep them to yourself and everything's fine. Express them and you're outta here! Maharaji can show one all that AND you don't even need to surrender the reins of your life anymore! Talk about a deal or what?

Maharaji can also show you a lot about the nature of trust and that's not something you want to learn from just anyone. You have to really know your trust teacher and have an experience with him. Only then are you 'fair game'. Maharaji is so patient in that he just sits in his nest of love and waits for YOU to trust HIM. No questions asked and no question answered. Nwo that's both love and trust and that, more than anything, is enough to really trigger tears of gratitude. So there's that.

Finally, if someone didn't like being involved they can, as Maharaji recently put it, so succinctly, so cleverly, 'take a hike'. So there's that too.

All in all, I'd say, yeah, go for it.
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Date: Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 22:30:11 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Sure. Why not?
Message:
Another classic, St. James.

It's good you are unemployed or retired, you can let
your wild gene ius 'evolve' here.
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Date: Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 22:34:05 (EST)
From: Laura
Email: None
To: Brian for the Questioner
Subject: Absolutely not
Message:
How many ways are there to say no? There are many paths to finding yourself, peace, happiness, the kingdom within, knowledge or whatever you want to call it. I don't know the 'right' path but I do know that 'knowledge' through GMJ is not a good path. Bad, bad, very bad, stay away from it.

You asked the question which means you already have some doubts. Listen to yourself, you already know the answer. It's kind of funny that you ask us at this web site, you already knew what most of us would say.

Try asking this question at the premie web site, or ask a premie. You know they will say that this knowledge is only available from one source. You aren't too indoctrinated yet, doesn't that sound illogical? Only one person on this entire planet that can give the experience of truth to the rest of the planets inhabitants, that's what, 6 billion people?

Please think - get knowledge somewhere that doesn't ask you to give your LIFE in return. Because that's the toll that getting knowledge from Maharaji takes, he wants your LIFE in exchange for Knowledge. You don't know me, but I'm telling you the absolute truth, I swear on it. He'll suck you dry, leave you penniless on the street, and have you begging to kiss his feet!
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Date: Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 22:42:17 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Is it worth it?
Message:
It's such a good question, Brian. I've been mulling it over all evening. It's not just knowledge, it's the whole package as everyone has so eloquently spoken about in this thread. Unfortunately, if I hadn't gotten involved with GM I may have gotten involved with something else self-destructive because that's where I was in my life. So I don't know--was it worth it?

I met a lot of good people, I spent a lot of time thinking during meditation--probably half the time when I should have been practicing the techniques I was actually thinking about my life, about current problems and ways to deal with them. So in that respect it was good--it forced me to be alone and solve problems.
That part of my life is so tied up into other issues--like being completely separated from my family--that it is really hard to say was it all worth it? If I hadn't had the support of the premie community I might have been worse off. But I will have to say that there are plenty of decent happy people out there who never heard of GM & knowledge, and certainly the happiness I've found in my life has nothing to do with GM, so I'd have to say no, it's not worth it. I agree with JW that meditation has a lot of benefits but there are a lot of less 'invasive'/damaging ways to learn a meditation technique.

I mostly meditate now for pain relief from back pain/arthritis. I fractured my back in an accident in which I used very poor thinking at the peak of my involvement with guess who--how's that for the snake's chasing his own tail? If I hadn't been so spaced out I would have used better judgment and would not be living with a life-challenging chronic condition. But then again, maybe not--it's so hard to say. But I would NEVER recommend knowledge and GM to anyone, not would I have back then so I guess that speaks VOLUMES

Great thread, Brian.

Helen
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Date: Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 01:34:30 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Is it worth it?
Message:
I would not suggest M as a source of Knowledge, because I don't believe he really knows anything. I would not suggest that one give up their brain and critical thinking faculties for a meditation technique available in a book (or on this site). Did I experience anything good while practicing K? I had a few good experiences meditating, but nothing really as cosmic as I was promised. I made some friends, but I don't know where any of them are now; I keep hoping someone will show up at this site or even at enjoyingthisbug'slife.org, but no one has, which means that they are all too broke to access the net or are just lurking and won't let anyone know they are around. The best thing I experienced from being a premie was becoming an ex-premie, and the best thing about becoming an ex-premie was finding this site and coming in contact with the folks here. No, I would not suggest so-called Knowledge or M to anyone!
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Date: Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 01:55:53 (EST)
From: Barney
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Is it worth it?
Message:
no, nein, 'a'ole, ei, ne, nem, nie, le, nyet, nej, la, het!

(English, German, Hawaiian, Finnish, Czech, Hungarian, Polish, Maltese, Russian, Swedish, Urdu, Yiddish)

Apologies if I got any of these wrong and for the short list, but the Yahoo Dictionaries are really, really lamebrain. I mean, how many ways are there to say NO! You mean, you (speaking to the Web App) cannot do an exact word search for 'NO' and need to show me the translation of every english word that contains the characters 'NO'.

I did try Croatian for our old fiend (sic), but I think they wanted me to pay for it. However, they did advertise it as Y2K compliant software. Imagine that, a Y2K compliant dictionary. I can't imagine how many date-time calculations are needed to do lookups on words. Whoa, staggering - I'll pay extra for that!
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Date: Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 14:02:06 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Brian, et al
Subject: Why the hell did we do it?
Message:
So, it's unanimous (er...except for Jim's comment--Jim, what the hell were you saying, seriously, I could not tell if that was satire or what)...not one of us would recommend knowledge or GM to anyone, but we were willing to slog along with it as long as we did. Ain't that sad, folks?

Was that because we thought that in order to achieve enlightenment we had to take our lumps and suffer so much? We wouldn't have wished it on our friends and loved ones but we were willing to endure it ourselves. That don't sound so good to me.
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Date: Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 19:23:26 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Why the hell did we do it?
Message:
Helen, I wouldn't recommend the cult to anyone now, but while I was a premie, especially in the early years, I recommended knowledge to EVERYONE, just about. I even got my brother and his wife to receive knowledge, my best friend from high school, and a couple of people I worked with. Everyone of them split long before I did, however, and weren't exactly happy with me for getting them involved.

Towards the end of my involvement, I never recommended knowledge to anyone. I told myself this was because the introductory programs the premies put on, showing videos of Maharaji, were so lame and mumbingly boring that they would just turn people off. So, I figured if I waited a few years they might get it together. This was the excuse, in reality, it was because I was pretty miserable myself.

I DID invite a couple of co-workers when Maharaji came to the Bay Area in 1981, but both times he was so incoherent and boring that they were underwhelmed and never mentioned it to me again after we went. Frankly, I was embarrassed about how little substance there was in what M said, and by the obvious uptightness of the premies who were running the program, most notably the initiator in charge, Mr. David Smith, who looked, alternatively, like he was having a nervous breakdown, had just been shot in the back, or had a very long wooden object shoved up a certain part of his anatomy, all while being an example of what this knowledge can do for you.
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Date: Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 19:39:21 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Why the hell did we do it?
Message:
That guy, David Smith, might have been suffering some major immune system/nervous system damage, or something, his body was self-destructing from the inside from repressing EVERYTHING...what a way to live. It would seriously be interesting to do a study on the health effects of cults (the stress-related health effects)
I think I never told many people about knowledge or tried to get them into it because I was terrible at giving satsang and I never surrendered sufficiently since I had always believed in God, something even greater than or bigger than Maharaji. I had been taught at an early age that proselytizing is not cool. In a way I admired those premies who with abandon, could share openly their love for Maharaji. I never really felt that kind of enthusiasm for him, although the meditation is great. I've told a couple of friends more recently about the meditation (before finding this website) and their eyes lit up and they almost started salivating. It scared me that they were so ready to throw themselves at the Guru so I also gave them each a little lecture about not abandoning their critical thinking. People (myself included) are so gullible now that new age thinking is so au courant (sp).

JW, I always enjoy your honest, clearly written posts. ALso you ask great questions.
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Date: Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 17:36:19 (EST)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Is it worth it?
Message:
Would you recommend Maharaji or anyone else as a source for Knowledge?

Brian, this is a good question.. I would like to say that I have refrained from sending people I care about to M's door, for despite the fact that I still find 'meditating' (can't bring myself to say 'practise') a good thing, I cannot bear to think of them having to suffer from all the trappings like I did. It is simply a matter of conscience. I am still sad that the whole thing turned out to have such a cultic side. It's really put me off. Maharaji and premies should definately come down to earth a bit and not treat sincere people who just can't stand the crap as if they were enemies of the Truth - teach 'em to meditate sure but don't hype it up, or keep telling people how grateful and committed they should be, how precious it is, how scarey the world is etc. and make it a scarey secret into the bargain. Now I'll read the rest of thread.
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Date: Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 18:56:58 (EST)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Is it worth it?
Message:
If the experience was perfect and his connection was special, why would you need to push anything such as the master etc, the experience of practicing knowledge would open up the connection for you?
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Date: Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 19:11:52 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Is it worth it?
Message:
I'm tempted to echo TD's response here, but my answer is NO. I told a lot of people about Maharaji when I first heard about him, and along with another friend of mine, was probably responsible for twenty people hearing about Maharaji. All these people subsequently got Knowledge, including my younger sister. At that time (1972-73) it was fairly easy to get knowledge and one didn't have to got through the indoctrination procedure that one does nowadays (I think I had to attend satsang for a month or something like that - anyway, that is the question the mahatma always asked.) I only know of one of these people (and I'm not sure about her) that is still going to programs, and maybe practicing Knowledge.

I didn't experience very much with the Knowledge meditation, and neither did a lot of the other people I know. People say now that we were too young (under 18) to experience anything. Maybe we were, but the fact is that we were allowed to receive Knowledge at that age BY M'S AGYA. We didn't experience much, and then decided to stop following M. My subsequent experience has been that other, similar or different, meditation techniques are available elsewhere without the burden of devotion to a particular human being.

So, no, it's not worth it, and, although I know some people who have been happily practicing K and devoting themselves to M for 25 years, I wouldn't recommend it. I do think that some people need a teacher or guru, but I don't think M is a good choice if that's what you're looking for. His path is too slippery.
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Date: Sun, Nov 29, 1998 at 22:09:13 (EST)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The going rate
Message:
Just been told that the people working at slimeballs bijou pad all get paid now!
Sounds doubtful to me, anyone got any feedback on that
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Date: Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 00:34:27 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: 50$ a week
Message:
Yes, I heard from a couple guys that worked there that
it was 50$ a week and housing.

One thing that you can be sure of, it only happened
because otherwise staff would be unavailable as much,
and/or, legal reasons and/or appearances.

They dont get that in india.
Where the guru/slave thing is legal
and not an issue.
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Date: Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 12:28:26 (EST)
From: RT
Email: huh?
To: bill
Subject: 50$ a week? Sat's All?
Message:
Jeez, Bill. that's terrible! $50 a day would be poverty.
How many photos of the Living Bored can ya get... and still eat?

What a freaken cheapskete...all those years of devotion.

RT
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 12:18:33 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: RT
Subject: 50$ a week? Sat's All?
Message:
You might know a couple of these guys,
tom kelly
glenn moulton
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Date: Sun, Nov 29, 1998 at 14:33:48 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Happy Birthday, Nigel!
Message:
Dear Nigel - We wish you a most wonderful birthday, even though it's half over. Thanks for making us laugh (although tell Willi that I am sorry for misleading him. Must be a language problem or something). Also, thanks so much for your elegant and masterful serious posts.

Love,
Katie
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Date: Sun, Nov 29, 1998 at 15:05:57 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Katie
Subject: Happy Birthday, Nigel!
Message:
Dear Nigel,
Here I was schmoozig Willi and it is your birthday, sorry 'bout that. Hope you are having a good day, or had since it is evening where you are now. Maybe you will catch Willi's preformance for your birthday! :)
Love and best wishes,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Nov 29, 1998 at 16:08:30 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Happy Birthday, Nigel!
Message:
yikes, almost too close to the living lord for comfort no?
But we don't believe in that stuff so it don't matter.
I love you. REally, you are one of my favorites here, among many.
Have a great day!!
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Date: Sun, Nov 29, 1998 at 17:33:42 (EST)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Happy Birthday, Nigel!
Message:
I feel like I've gotten to know you more over this last month due to our joint espionage, and the pleasure's been all mine! Your wit'n'wisdom (apologies to enjoyingcultlife.org for stealing that little gem) has enriched many cyberlives around these here parts.

I hope Tony, Carl and Willi can join you for a couple of schnapps to celebrate this great day.

love, TD
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Date: Sun, Nov 29, 1998 at 17:39:09 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Happy Birthday, Nigel!
Message:
Hey Nigel,

What are you doing tonight? You should rent the John Hurt version of 1984 and throw a party around it. Everyone can wear coveralls. You'd get to lie on the table in the end.

Have fun, man. You deserve it.

Jim
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Date: Sun, Nov 29, 1998 at 18:11:35 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Happy Birthday, Nigel!
Message:
Happy Birthday, Nigel! I hope that your day was great. I always read your posts as I know that they will be witty and concise. Thanks for being on the Forum.
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Date: Sun, Nov 29, 1998 at 19:11:49 (EST)
From: Laura
Email: lhopest@aol.com
To: Nigel
Subject: Happy Birthday, Nigel!
Message:
Dear Nigel, Happy Birthday. I hope you make up for some lost partying time on this birthday. Have a great one! Love, Laura
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Date: Sun, Nov 29, 1998 at 22:16:22 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Happy Birthday, Nigel!
Message:
To the literate and creative Nigel--another JOhn Cleese. You should form your own one man show, I mean it, Nigel

So how does it feel to have women throwing themselves at you? You know you love it!!! Happy Birthday!
Helen
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Date: Sun, Nov 29, 1998 at 22:41:23 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Happy Birthday, Nigel!
Message:
I hope you had a good one, even if you ARE an atheist...snicker!
Stay clear of premie island in '99.
Thanks for writing here. You have TRUE wit and wisdom :) VP
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Date: Sun, Nov 29, 1998 at 23:15:31 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Happy Birthday, Nigel!
Message:
You are one wild and crazy guy. Smart too.

Happy Birthday,
Jerry
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Date: Sun, Nov 29, 1998 at 23:21:14 (EST)
From: Joy
Email: bluebirdd@aol.com
To: Nigel, Larkin & Willi
Subject: Happy Birthday, Nigel!
Message:
Happy Birthday to Nigel, Larkin & Willi, some of the coolest guys ever! You all have provided many a chuckle over this past year, and lots and lots of entertainment, as well as thought-provoking insight and wisdom (uh-oh, I'm starting to sound like a book review).

Much love from yet another of your female admirers,
Joy
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Date: Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 03:03:27 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Katie
Subject: Happy Birthday, Nigel!
Message:
Don't worry Nigel. The boils do go eventually. The first ten years are the worst. I am astride my trusty war horse, clad in my shiny armour with my lance at the ready! Why are you running away?
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Date: Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 04:50:25 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Katie & everyone
Subject: It's today!
Message:
Thanks Katie, and everyone. I am really touched by all the love and good wishes. I would give you all big hug right now if it were possible (OK, maybe a buddy-buddy punch on the shoulder to those among you not into hugs!)

Actually my birthday is today (30th). The mistake is my own as my abacus was on the blink when I told you Jim was exactly fifteen days older than me. He is actually sixteen days older. Never mind, the result is even better, because I had all these great messages already on-line when I got up this morning.

Thanks again. You are all such wonderful company that I have quit quitting the forum, since I have finally realised it is impossible.

Now I think I'll go and play with my shiny, brand-new scanner...

Love,
Nigel
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Date: Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 10:39:33 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Nigel
Subject: It's today!
Message:
Dear Nigel,
Yipee! Then, as Jim was worried, we weren't all bickering on your birthday! I can't seem to figure out how to use the scanner here in the computer lab across the hall so maybe you'd scan some stuff for me? I'll be over this evening...and I'll help you celebrate your real birthday also, meet the family, etc!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 13:03:45 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: It's today!
Message:
Happy Birthday Nigel. I hope you have a wonderful day.

[I also wanted to congratulate you Brits on that very unexpected decision to introduce the foreign concept of justice into Mr. Pinochet's life. I heard he is very depressed about it. I'm sure we all feel very sorry for him. The fact that Maggie Thatcher has her undies in a bunch over all this just makes it all the better.]
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Date: Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 14:28:11 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: It's today!
Message:
Alright!!! I didn't miss the opportunity to wish my favourite poet and rock star a very happy birthday! If Instant Karma is real, you must spend lots of time ROTFL as a result of your contributions to this site.
Withalottalove,
eb
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Date: Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 15:28:32 (EST)
From: seymour
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: Happy Birthday Andy O'Dwyer
Message:
Hope you have a great time but don't be drinking too much of the ale, begorroh.Then again you are an ole tinker so what the hell.
Thanks for the laughs, and many worthy posts.
Cheers
Seymour
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Date: Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 18:55:03 (EST)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Happy B'day Andy not Tony
Message:
Must have been thinking of Saturday Night Fever when I wrote about having a schnapps with Tony. I meant Andy. Oops!
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Date: Tues, Dec 01, 1998 at 02:15:12 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: TD
Subject: Their mistake, not yours...
Message:
It wasn't your fault, TD. Their first edit was to list Andy O'Dwyer as 'Tony' in their Lives index. It seemed a bit churlish to comment at the time, though.
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Date: Sun, Nov 29, 1998 at 10:59:13 (EST)
From: seymour
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Authoritarianism not the way
Message:
Hello everyone,
Although I have not been able to participate in the forum due to the usual lack of time, I have been reading the Guru Papers by Joel Kramer and Diana Alstad. I know this book has been mentioned many times but I would just like to add some of my initial impressions...
I dropped out of DLM due to growing disillusionment with the knowledge techniques and M, whose expressions of disinterest in social justice, art, philosophy etc. etc. had gradually led me to decide that I could no longer trust someone who decreed that for personal ethics virtually anything goes as long as you are practicing knowledge. I was also aware that after over 20 years I had not become a better or wiser person than I was when I started.
Making the decision to stop practicing the techniques was not an easy one and I felt much as the following quote from G.P. says.
'The difficulty of leaving is compounded by the reality that doing so rarely feels good initially. Instead there's bewilderment, anger mixed with depression, and self blame.....
Leaving the group creates more than an identity crisis, for it involves mistrusting one's deepest emotions and basic perceptions of self, others, and the universe. In addition, one doubts the wisdom of following one's passion. Whereas passion about a cause used to be a sign of authenticity, it, too can no longer be trusted.'

Trying to adopt a new world view after so long is like trying to stop an oil tanker and while I was going through the transition I was not the best person in the world to be around. Seeing how my mood was effecting my children, and how it had previously whilst struggling to be a 'good' premie, was the impetus I needed to start studying such things as psychology, philosophy, sociology, mathematics, history etc. all of which were not part of premie culture. How could I have ever thought that I could learn nothing worthwhile from anyone but the satguru when there are and have been so many wise, yet non religious people passing on their thoughts and discoveries throughout history?
The Guru Papers brought it back to me how narrow minded I had become and why I experienced such difficulties in trying to start afresh after wasting 20+ years of my life.
Even many years later when I was over the worst, I benefitted greatly from discovering the first ex-premie site although I think it would have been a lot easier had there been such a jolly group of perspicacious ex's to share feeling with when I first jumped ship
I remember M saying on more than one occasion 'shape up or ship out' I just wish I had not spent so much time trying to shape up.
After reading some of the Guru Papers I am aware that it may have been my 'premie' experience that makes me wary of commiting to any one view of life yet I can't help falling in with the authors view that the world is changing and is in serious trouble if we continue to rely on traditional religious concepts.
We are seeing the growth of a movement that wants to be free of the deep conditioning that we have inherited and wishes to find the truth. Unfortunately, as the book says, the obstacles are not easy to overcome,
'..it is people's deep conditioning to want either to be or to obey an unchallengeable authority that is keeping the planet from the kind of intelligince needed in problem-solving.'
'The problem is that we must tear down the old ship before it sinks, rebuilding it at the same time without destroying the needed parts.' This is similar to the problems faced in leaving the cult but on a world scale.
Being a premie, or believing in any superstition born of wishful thinking is dangerous and the longer we continue to follow such a path the more the conditioning is reinforced, taking us away from the discovery of reality. Interesting that the book compares being a member of a cult with addiction.
The first things Maharaji said at the Kathmandu '98 festival was
'What an opportunity. Here, we have a chance to talk about something different; something that nobody else is talking about' which means something like nowhere else are people involved in such a worthwhile activity as attending the festival and listening to him. This is just not true.
I remember M discouraging us premies from looking elsewhere for satisfaction saying that we were only attached to seeking. How ridiculous. If we need food and someone gives us a meal we do not ignore it and go on searching - unless the meal does not taste right. Of course there are some meals that taste sort of o.k. at first but leave you wanting something a bit more substantial and nourishing - or even making you feel sick.
Anyhow, one final quote before I disappear back to the daily toil,
'All channeled information, including religions, create a closed system that is entirely self-referential. Any challenges from outside can be deflected by calling them limited understanding.' Ring any bells?
Cheers
Seymour
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Date: Sun, Nov 29, 1998 at 11:06:29 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: seymour
Subject: Authoritarianism not the way
Message:
Thanks see-more. I say this post should go in the forum archives, bro.
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Date: Sun, Nov 29, 1998 at 15:45:50 (EST)
From: jethro
Email: None
To: seymour
Subject: An excellent post(nt)
Message:
Many thanks.
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Date: Sun, Nov 29, 1998 at 21:49:54 (EST)
From: Laura
Email: None
To: seymour
Subject: Authoritarianism not the way
Message:
Hi Seymour,

Wow, you always go right to the core of the issue. ' . . . for over twenty years I had not become a better or wiser person . . .' You are reading my mind. I think I'm experiencing the Rip Van Winkle effect - waking up and not knowing exactly how long I slept, and hardly believing that I was sleeping. Now I get to discover the world that is, the world I didn't accept in the first place, how confusing this all is.

There is so much information today, easily obtainable, about personal growth, understanding, spirituality, new age, so many names for the same thing. I don't trust any of them and once again desire an internal experience. Maybe that experience is to be happy, just hang out on earth and enjoy it's music, flavors, lights and good ole' vibrations. I don't know anymore if there's anything 'more.' But then again, the usual 'eat, drink and be merry' scene hasn't done it for me in the past.

Where do I find the Guru papers? Maybe I can at least become enlightened about frauds. Thanks again Semour for a great post.
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Date: Sun, Nov 29, 1998 at 21:59:39 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Laura
Subject: Authoritarianism not the way
Message:
Hi Laura - 'The Guru Papers' can be ordered from Amazon.com, or from your local bookstore. Well worth reading, even if you can't sit down and read the whole book straight through. I can lend you my copy if you'd like - no problem.
Take care,
Katie

P.S. to Seymour: Wotcha, Seymour - and thanks for a great post, as always! Glad to see you here.
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Date: Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 15:24:45 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: seymour
Subject: Authoritarianism not the way
Message:
Seymour:

I also thought The Guru Papers had excellent insights. It put into words so many of the things I felt, and the authors give some good reasoning as to why those things happen. I particularly liked the guru 'stages' they talked about. I thought they fit Maharaji to a 'T.'

I also think that once I left the cult, I saw (painfully) how limiting it had been, and how to stay in it I had repressed my creativity, intellect, interest in things, etc., and how I had internalized Maharaji's stunted philosophy.

But, painful as it is, seeing it is the first stage in breaking out of the limitations. Gradually, I found that my old self came back and I became genuinely interested in other things again. But there was a time I felt in a kind of 'no-man's-land.' I had some ex-premie friends who understood, but it was a pretty lonely, confusing period.

Maharaji expounds an emphasis on focusing on your own 'experience' and on Maharaji, to the exclusion of all else. It really caused me and other premies seem like these kind of one-dimensional people who say disturbing things like 'I'm happy so I don't care about anything else,' and 'I'm enjoyinglife and nothing else matters.' The ideal is to do nothing other than enjoy an experience and then be grateful for it. That's what Maharaji preaches.

One thing that really helped me get out of that was getting involved in trying to help people who needed it. It really got me out of myself, or maybe it 'forced' me out of myself. I started out just delivering meals to people with AIDS who couldn't get out of the house. Then I got trained and did some Hospice work. I can't tell you how much this helped.
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Date: Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 15:31:43 (EST)
From: seymour
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Authoritarianism not the way
Message:
Thanks everyone, for the feedback. I will read them tonight.
Still enjoying the book. Does anyone know the authors? I would like to know a bit more about them as they seem to have done a good job.
Seymour.
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Date: Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 16:50:06 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Authoritarianism not the way
Message:
Kudos to you JW for doing that work.
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Date: Sat, Nov 28, 1998 at 21:39:20 (EST)
From: Willi Kranz
Email: gothman@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: hello again...
Message:
Yes it is I, Willi Kranz. I am happy to reconvene at the excellent-premie.org. What a week it is too! Today I am having the 'DT's' (not the TD's, ha ha!) which is the 'delirious tremblings'. This comes from the rock 'n' roll life. Last night Blisskid play our repertory to Unterscnatterbach's best bier garden, and we are heroic. After the gig we drink schnapps in the van and stay awake until the earliest hours of the morning, having so much good laughing and crazy antics.
My Englischer friend Nigel is telling me that his boils have shrunk, but now his telephone is dead for five days. He is making responsible the moorhens at the British Telephone company, but Gunther says it is once again the Grace of the Guru Maharaji. If you take one step away from the Guru Maharaji he will put the spanner into one hundred spokes. I said 'Gunther, you are making a meal out of a molehill. Perhaps you don't know so much. Nigel is working on a big plan to bring the truth about Knowledge to many many people, which will be cool. I think you must go back to the psychiatric.'
Gunther is losing his career again which is always glum tidings and, how you say, traurig for his hungry family. For Gunther the Grace is always bringing him the sack. This time the feuerwehr say he should not meditate on duty. What if it is an emergency and you are blissing out while the civilians burn?
But my biggest sadness at this moment is a personal reason. Today I speak to Gerlinde for a change, who is my versprochene . We make a long walk and, believe me please, I am not such big monster. I speak so tenderly and say 'Gerlinde, my susskind, I am always touched in the heart when you wear your dirndel and put on your deodorant so we can go singing in the forest during the twilight. I am crazy about the fireside and the pumpernickel. You must not get me wrong. Could I ask for anything more or more often? But sometimes enough is enough, nicht wahr?'
Gerlinde is giving me a comical look now and I know I must get this thing over with finally.
'Gerlinde,' I say, 'Katie is my new sweeteheart. She asks what I am doing this Saturday, so long as I don't bring Gunther alongside me. Perhaps she is loving me already. Can you dig where it is I am coming from, please? But I feel a little bit sad that Gunther must stay at home. Perhaps he can come next time. Katie is a very cool American chick, which can be very beneficial from the rockstar point of view. We could double-date. Have you heard about free-love?'
All at once, Gerlinde does the apeshit and is throwing a fit of jealousy. Her bottom lip is wobbling like Helmut Kohl's big arse and she is not so happy as I calculated. She didn't hear about free love, after all. She slaps both my ears with a bratwurst and sets me straight. 'Willi', she says, 'I see very well where you are coming form. Just keep it in your lederhosen from now on. Remember who is the boss'.
'The Guru Maharaji is the boss', I say.
Gerlinde says, 'Your little rich fat Indian fellow can go and f*** himself mit einem ******* over and over, for all I care. Just be remembering who gave you the job at the car factory.'
Yes, of course, it is Gerlinde's Pappa who gave me this awful job in the straight world.
'And' she says, 'who is paying for the bauplot where our house will be built - and also the BMW..?
Katie, it is an impossible dream. Also, Peter might punch my lights out. I will tell you all about the big gig next time.

In sadness,
Willi
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Date: Sat, Nov 28, 1998 at 21:56:37 (EST)
From: Guess who?
Email: None
To: Willi Kranz
Subject: hello again...
Message:
Many American girls have big crushes on you Willi. You are our type because you make us laugh. We will sneak away from our husbands for you. You tell Nigel the secret of love is making the girls laugh. You can have a big nose, boils, and no money, but the girls will not care, all we want is to laugh and when we giggle all we see is love. That is the secret of women
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Date: Sun, Nov 29, 1998 at 06:43:47 (EST)
From: Crazy American Girl
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Guess who?
Subject: hello again...
Message:
Dear Willi,
I see Jim knows how much I love and he is a rock star also but he is mean and so gets none of my love. You Willi, on the other hand, are a great rock star who sees the value in the love of an American woman. You make me crazy I love you so much. I see I am not the only one but there are so few good men out there we women will gladly share such a wonderful man as you!
Love,
CAG <3
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Date: Sun, Nov 29, 1998 at 03:31:07 (EST)
From: Noriko Sakamoto
Email: None
To: Wirri Kranz
Subject: herro again...
Message:
Herro Wirri San. My name is Noriko and I come from Japan. I like very much your music and Blisskid. I play bass guitar in extra cool Japan girl punk band called Geisha Blade and watched you band first time at music festival in Berlin year ago. You make me hot and me love you long time.

Last night, I go to repertory with friend Akio to see you play like fire, but could not make entrance as the bouncer say to Akio, 'You not old enough'. This crazy. Akio is 32 year old. So OK, he wear Nike type high shoes and baseball cap going behind, but he is more years compared to me. So I say to bouncer, 'Please, I come all this way for Blisskid music and hear Wirri Kranz play. How I get in' and this man, he look at me and say 'You must suck my liverwurst'. Coming from Japan, I say I do not understand this about liverwurst and so I ask him! Believe what happens next? He opens pants and out comes his thing. Ah so! Akio scream and we run away very quick.

Wirri, you are best rock and roll star in the planet, but please talk to bouncer and say 'Be friend' to Japan girl groupie next time, please. And who Katie and Gerlinde. I don't care. They be friend of Noriko too. Maybe they want play in our band? We are crazy too.

Love cuddle over moon, (haiku love saying) Noriko

Who is fat Indian guy? Does he flute and dance with Blisskid band?
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Date: Sun, Nov 29, 1998 at 15:00:42 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Willi Kranz
Subject: Aw, Willi...
Message:
...I'm sorry, Willi, honey. You are right that it is an impossible dream. I don't want to run into Gerlinde in a dark alley when she's armed with bratwurst, and you're right that Peter might punch your lights out. (He also might run off with Gerlinde because he really likes those bratwursts.) So, I think it would be better if you were my Eurogod from afar. Besides, too many other American and Japan girls are crazy in love with you!
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Date: Sun, Nov 29, 1998 at 15:16:51 (EST)
From: Barney
Email: None
To: Willi Kranz
Subject: To Be or Not To Be - doobeedoo
Message:
To be a Rock Star or a Guru, that is the question that most males (ladies should I include you or do you prefer being faithful groupies/gopis?) have been asking since puberty. Either career may yield the following:

Money for nothing
Adoring fans/devotees
Groupies/gopis
World travel
Fame
Good backstage, pre-gig food
Wild unlimited debauchery with no hangovers

Willi, how I admire you and envy your position and success. Please tell me, so that I may change course since I just ain't making it on being a Guru because the competition is just too fierce, just exactly which three chords on the guitar should I learn? And, is singing well really important?

God Bless!
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