Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum III Archive # 30 | |
From: Nov 23, 1998 |
To: Dec 5, 1998 |
Page: 5 Of: 5 |
Forum Elves -:- Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr... -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 01:41:12 (EST) __Jim -:- Bad precedent -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 02:17:57 (EST) ____gerry -:- ex-premiesenjoyinglife.org -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 10:17:37 (EST) ____Mike -:- I'm outta here! Thanks. -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 10:32:31 (EST) ______Brian -:- To Mike and Gerry -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 11:33:28 (EST) ________Gerry -:- To Mike and Gerry -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 11:56:08 (EST) __________Gerry -:- Also... -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 12:04:30 (EST) ________Mike -:- To Brian -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 12:01:35 (EST) ______Selene -:- outta here? No Way -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 17:29:33 (EST) ____Brian -:- Bad precedent -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 10:57:48 (EST) ______Jim -:- Bad precedent -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 11:31:08 (EST) ________x -:- Bad precedent -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 14:14:09 (EST) ________Katie -:- Answering Jim -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 15:43:27 (EST) ______eb -:- Bad precedent -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 15:50:51 (EST) __Brian -:- Katie disciplines the Elves -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 14:39:10 (EST) ____Katie -:- Katie disciplines the Elves -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 15:12:08 (EST) ______Mickey the Pharisee -:- Katie disciplines the Elves -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 16:04:42 (EST) ________Gerry -:- Katie disciplines the Elves -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 16:19:55 (EST) __________Jim -:- Jim disciplines Gerry -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 16:42:32 (EST) ____________Gerry -:- Now you've done it! -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 17:18:31 (EST) ______________Mike -:- Mike disciplines himself -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 17:41:05 (EST) ________________Helen -:- Mike disciplines himself -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 17:48:12 (EST) ________________Jerry -:- Cut the bull, Mike -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 22:14:24 (EST) __________________Helen -:- Cut the bull, Mike -:- Thurs, Nov 26, 1998 at 09:44:19 (EST) ______________Helen -:- Now you've done it! -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 17:44:59 (EST) ________________VP -:- Now you've done it! -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 20:44:39 (EST) ______________Jim -:- Good -:- Thurs, Nov 26, 1998 at 00:08:08 (EST) ________________Gerry -:- Good -:- Thurs, Nov 26, 1998 at 00:17:42 (EST) ________Katie -:- Wrong URL for Premie Forum -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 16:34:46 (EST) __________gErRy -:- Thanks for the correction (nt) -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 16:39:36 (EST) __________Mickey the Pharisee -:- Wrong URL for Premie Forum -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 18:21:24 (EST) ____________gerry -:- Mick, you ARE a commie (nt) -:- Thurs, Nov 26, 1998 at 13:54:34 (EST) ______________Mike -:- I thought he was a comic (nt) -:- Fri, Nov 27, 1998 at 13:00:19 (EST) ________Helen -:- Katie disciplines the Elves -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 16:57:16 (EST) ____VP -:- Katie disciplines the Elves -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 16:04:50 (EST) ______Katie -:- Off-topic posts -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 16:29:45 (EST) ________VP -:- Off-topic posts -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 16:44:04 (EST) __________Katie -:- Off-topic posts -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 16:50:57 (EST) ________Jim -:- Off-topic posts (ot) -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 16:45:31 (EST) ________helen -:- Off-topic posts -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 17:05:45 (EST) __________Katie -:- Off-topic posts -:- Fri, Nov 27, 1998 at 12:20:00 (EST) ______Diz -:- Katie disciplines the Elves -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 17:59:16 (EST) ________Helen -:- Love you too,(nt) -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 20:51:04 (EST) rmt -:- Hmmm... -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 00:28:47 (EST) __Sir David -:- Hmmm...Ha! -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 01:07:28 (EST) ____Jim -:- Ditto -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 02:20:14 (EST) __Barney -:- Hmmm... -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 02:55:11 (EST) __Adole -:- Hmmm... -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 05:14:04 (EST) ____Gerry -:- Hmmm... -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 18:44:41 (EST) __Scott T. -:- Hmmm... II -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 07:58:10 (EST) ____VP -:- Hmmm... II To Scott T. -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 16:10:29 (EST) __Jerry -:- You sound like a premie -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 22:35:47 (EST) Jim -:- I can't do it (but I got it!) -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 22:27:31 (EST) __Mickey the Pharisee -:- I can't do it (but I got it!) -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 02:00:59 (EST) __Sir D -:- I can't do it (but I got it!) -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 02:14:31 (EST) ____Robyn -:- I can't do it (but I got it!) -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 08:37:00 (EST) ______Helen -:- I can't do it (but I got it!) -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 21:28:02 (EST) ________Robyn -:- I can't do it (but I got it!) -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 22:48:47 (EST) __________Helen -:- I can't do it (but I got it!) -:- Thurs, Nov 26, 1998 at 09:48:57 (EST) Sydney -:- Rotten Vegetables -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 22:19:24 (EST) __Sir David -:- I'll re-phrase that -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 00:54:15 (EST) david m -:- The Letter.... K...ECT -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 20:13:06 (EST) __Sir David -:- The Letter.... K...ECT -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 21:34:31 (EST) ____Helen -:- The Letter.... K...ECT -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 23:24:25 (EST) __Opinion -:- The Letter.... K...ECT -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 21:37:26 (EST) chr -:- Relationships and children -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 06:20:43 (EST) __Robyn -:- Relationships and children -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 11:04:35 (EST) ____Gerry -:- Relationships and children -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 11:16:17 (EST) ______Gerry -:- homonyms -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 12:17:03 (EST) ______Robyn -:- Gerry -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 08:39:48 (EST) __Katie -:- Relationships and children -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 14:41:04 (EST) __JW -:- Relationships and children -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 14:53:25 (EST) ____Gerry -:- Relationships and children -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 14:58:31 (EST) ____Mike -:- Once again, JW -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 15:05:56 (EST) ______JW -:- Once again, JW -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 16:54:47 (EST) __Helen -:- Relationships and children -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 17:41:00 (EST) ____Diz -:- Relationships and children -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 17:59:43 (EST) ______Helen -:- Relationships and children -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 22:40:41 (EST) ________chr -:- Relationships and children -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 06:05:41 (EST) __________Helen -:- Relationships and children -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 13:59:16 (EST) ____Gerry the terrible -:- Relationships and children -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 18:37:28 (EST) ______Helen -:- Sorry, Gerry! -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 22:34:23 (EST) Jim -:- Marolyn's letter (Part 1) -:- Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 23:40:30 (EST) __Jim -:- Marolyn's letter (Part II) -:- Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 23:41:29 (EST) ____Helen -:- Marolyn's letter (Part II) -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 00:02:42 (EST) ______TD -:- Marolyn's letter (Part II) -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 02:41:53 (EST) ________Katie -:- Helen and TD -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 13:44:09 (EST) __________VP -:- Helen and TD -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 14:27:58 (EST) __________Helen -:- Helen and TD -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 16:26:10 (EST) __________ZUMA TRIBE -:- Helen and TD -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 01:17:30 (EST) ____________gerry -:- you guys -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 23:59:40 (EST) ____SHP -:- Marolyn's letter (Part II) -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 00:45:30 (EST) ______Jim -:- Helen & SHP -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 01:33:33 (EST) ________SHP -:- Rat-ionalizing a mugging -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 01:56:56 (EST) __________Jethro -:- Rat-ionalizing a mugging -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 02:10:22 (EST) __________Jim -:- Don't change the subject -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 07:37:41 (EST) ____________Mr Ex -:- Jim, please read my comments -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 10:31:12 (EST) ____________SHP -:- Don't change the subject -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 13:42:24 (EST) ______________Katie -:- to SHP -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 14:46:32 (EST) ____________AJW -:- Sex Lives -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 07:11:36 (EST) ______________Jim -:- Sex Lives -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 16:13:02 (EST) ________________AJW -:- Sex Lives -:- Thurs, Nov 26, 1998 at 04:23:05 (EST) __________________Jim -:- Good question -:- Thurs, Nov 26, 1998 at 19:29:24 (EST) ____________________AJW -:- Good question -:- Fri, Nov 27, 1998 at 09:38:15 (EST) ______________________JW -:- Good question -:- Fri, Nov 27, 1998 at 10:02:01 (EST) ________Mr Ex -:- Helen & SHP -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 05:02:27 (EST) ________Brian -:- Helen & SHP -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 09:44:03 (EST) __________Helen -:- The letter -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 12:24:30 (EST) ________Katie -:- Publishing the letter -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 13:40:52 (EST) __________SHP -:- Publishing the letter -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 16:37:17 (EST) ____________Katie -:- Publishing the letter -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 16:44:13 (EST) ______________SHP -:- Publishing the letter -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 16:54:48 (EST) ________________Katie -:- Publishing the letter -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 17:08:04 (EST) __________________SHP -:- Publishing the letter -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 17:19:50 (EST) ____________________Katie -:- Publishing the letter -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 17:35:24 (EST) ______________________SHP -:- Publishing the letter -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 18:08:00 (EST) ________________________Katie -:- Rotten vegetables -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 20:25:05 (EST) ____________________Scott T. -:- Publishing the letter -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 19:37:43 (EST) __________________Gerry -:- You're nobody's accomplice -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 18:24:10 (EST) ____________________Katie -:- You're nobody's accomplice -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 18:40:12 (EST) ______________________Mike -:- You're nobody's accomplice -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 18:50:32 (EST) ______________________Gerry -:- You're nobody's accomplice -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 18:57:25 (EST) ________________________Katie -:- to Gerry and Mike -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 20:00:49 (EST) __________________________Gerry -:- Earth shattering news! -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 20:23:06 (EST) ________________________SHP -:- You're nobody's accomplice -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 00:26:50 (EST) ____________Scott T. -:- 'Publishing?' -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 19:15:30 (EST) ______________Katie -:- You're right, Scott -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 19:18:15 (EST) ______________SHP -:- 'Publishing?' -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 01:08:26 (EST) __________Jim -:- clarification -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 18:22:19 (EST) ____________SHP -:- Jim's gift of interpretation -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 01:18:21 (EST) ____________Mr Ex -:- clarification: EXACTLY -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 03:42:56 (EST) ______________Katie -:- To Mr. Ex - please read -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 16:20:15 (EST) ________________Mr Ex -:- To Mr. Ex - please read -:- Thurs, Nov 26, 1998 at 05:11:53 (EST) ____Mike -:- Marolyn's letter -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 13:05:56 (EST) ______Orlando -:- a disclaimer, maybe? -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 13:15:07 (EST) ________Jim -:- It's real, alright -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 19:01:26 (EST) __________Katie -:- It's real, alright -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 19:22:35 (EST) __________Orlando -:- lying on this site -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 21:55:07 (EST) ____________Jim -:- discretion and stupidity -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 21:58:20 (EST) ______________Jim -:- oops! -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 22:04:46 (EST) ______________Orlando -:- i see -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 22:12:24 (EST) ________________Jim -:- do you? -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 22:38:15 (EST) ________________Katie -:- i see -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 22:51:40 (EST) __________________hamzen -:- i see -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 03:16:54 (EST) ____________________Katie -:- i see -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 16:45:44 (EST) ____________VP -:- lying on this site -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 16:59:28 (EST) ______________Mike -:- No sense of humor... -:- Fri, Nov 27, 1998 at 11:29:27 (EST) ________________VP -:- No sense of humor... -:- Fri, Nov 27, 1998 at 22:26:06 (EST) ______VP -:- Marolyn's letter -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 13:49:52 (EST) ________VP -:- Marolyn's letter-also -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 13:55:38 (EST) ________Orlando -:- wrong again -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 22:29:33 (EST) __________Jim -:- ha ha ha -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 22:44:40 (EST) ____________VP -:- To Orlando -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 16:22:19 (EST) ______Scott T. -:- Marolyn's letter -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 13:52:28 (EST) ________Mike -:- Marolyn's letter -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 14:01:34 (EST) __________Helen -:- Marolyn's letter/stroke victim -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 16:37:28 (EST) ________Helen -:- Christian Science -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 16:24:52 (EST) __g's mom -:- my opinion -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 19:47:57 (EST) ____Jim -:- my opinion -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 21:55:32 (EST) ______g's mom -:- the diff -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 13:28:38 (EST) ________Jim -:- the diff -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 16:07:55 (EST) __________x -:- the diff -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 17:58:59 (EST) ____VP -:- to g's mom -:- Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 21:33:22 (EST) ______g's mom -:- to VP -:- Thurs, Nov 26, 1998 at 00:19:06 (EST) ________Helen -:- Politics: Sordid and COnfused -:- Thurs, Nov 26, 1998 at 09:53:35 (EST) ________VP -:- Devil's Advocate -:- Thurs, Nov 26, 1998 at 23:38:43 (EST) __________g's mom -:- wow good point... -:- Fri, Nov 27, 1998 at 02:37:49 (EST) ____________Helen -:- I agree, good point, Veep (nt) -:- Fri, Nov 27, 1998 at 08:50:33 (EST) ____________VP -:- wow good point... -:- Fri, Nov 27, 1998 at 23:19:09 (EST) SHP -:- A Blessing on you -:- Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 22:09:36 (EST) __Jim -:- A Blessing on YOU -:- Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 22:19:49 (EST) SHP -:- Slavery went out a while back -:- Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 19:00:00 (EST) __Helen -:- The ethers -:- Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 20:15:35 (EST) __hamzen -:- Slavery went out a while back -:- Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 20:25:12 (EST) __Katie -:- Slavery went out a while back -:- Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 21:52:08 (EST) __Sir David -:- Rubber bands -:- Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 22:53:01 (EST) ____hamzen -:- Rubber bands -:- Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 23:31:30 (EST) __Brian -:- Ignorance went out -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 10:10:27 (EST) ____Sir D -:- Ignorance went out -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 12:01:32 (EST) ______SHP -:- Ignorance went out -:- Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 14:05:53 (EST) |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 01:41:12 (EST)
From: Forum Elves Email: ElvesLives@ex-premie.org To: Everyone Subject: Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr... Message: We chopped the name-calling deadwood out of anotherwise great thread below about how children have been affected by parent involvement with Maharaji's cult. The deadwood consumed 17 posts, escalated from baiting to bodily functions, and - most damning of all(!) - caused our dear Katie distress that she had to step in and try to get things back on topic. Call it a knee-jerk reaction to seeing Katie's personal enjoyment of the Forum diminished. We value her presence here greatly, and HATE to archive posts that totally lack any content. A big smoooch to chr for the great post! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 02:17:57 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Forum Elves Subject: Bad precedent Message: Brian, I'm with you completely on the unnecessary degeneration of a promising subject. But is this really the way to fix that? Erasing threads and all? Hmm... not in my mind. Anyone who's been here a while knows that Katie's comfort level is itself an interesting subject. I know you're half kidding but I'd hate to think that's some sort of standard or anything. You know, Katie doesn't like dissing Maharaji (or anyone) and doesn't really like confrontation. That's fine but, like I say, that's just Katie. This is a full-spectrum colloquy, isn't it? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 10:17:37 (EST)
From: gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: ex-premiesenjoyinglife.org Message: This is a full-spectrum colloquy, isn't it? guess not. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 10:32:31 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: Jim Subject: I'm outta here! Thanks. Message: Censorship is censorship. No threats were communicated by shp or anyone else in that thread; thus no forum rules broken. So the only thing I can assume is simple I-don't-like-it censorship. BTW, I agree that it really didn't belong in that thread, but that's where it was. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 11:33:28 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Mike Subject: To Mike and Gerry Message: Censorship is censorship. No threats were communicated by shp or anyone else in that thread; thus no forum rules broken. So the only thing I can assume is simple I-don't-like-it censorship. BTW, I agree that it really didn't belong in that thread, but that's where it was. Looks like this will probably degenerate into one of those ugly threads that periodically crop up here. I hope not. People post here and read here because they find the forum useful in sorting out their inner conflicts over leaving Maharaji's cult. You're not the first to complain that you don't like something you've seen here and then announce your departure in protest. People come and go. Some of us put a lot of time and effort into seeing that there is a forum here to come and go from. Jim just re-posted the Marolyn letter that sent some packing before. You didn't object to their having been offended because it didn't offend you personally. You didn't object to your mudfight being here because that didn't offend you. You are completely unaware and perhaps unconcerned with who might have been offended enough to stop reading here either. You take no responsibility other than to say that's what was here and that's where it was, as if it just happened by itself. SHP's views offend you, but not offending back him by referring to SHeeP in repeated posts regardless of the thread topics - and dragging everyone else along in the process. That those of us who had to wade through it or read around it were offended doesn't bother you in the least. That someone deleted those posts offends you. I told shp that we were all adults here. Sorry, shp. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 11:56:08 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Brian Subject: To Mike and Gerry Message: Slow down, Brian. I'm having a difficult time understanding what you are saying here. Too many offendings. I just want to let people know that there is indeed censorship here other than threats, and if they want to talk without censorship, there is a place to do so. It's the former Keith channel. (Sorry Keith) I think you and Katie do a great job. It's your forum and your rules. I just think you should reconsider the Anything and Everything about M and his followers part. And let people know their posts will be censored if you or Katie don't like them. That's all. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 12:04:30 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Brian Subject: Also... Message: Sheep, as slang, means a blind faith follower. I couldn't think of a better description of BM's premies than that, could you? In that sense, I think it is appropriate and might even nudge the guy into reconsidering his position. But then, maybe not. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 12:01:35 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: Brian Subject: To Brian Message: Brian: No, it won't degenerate into anything (at least not on my account). I do appreciate the work that you and others have put into this forum. It's fantastic and very well managed. It definitely has a purpose that is well established. This post isn't meant to be an insult to you, either (so please DO NOT take it that way). The fact that 'I' said that 'it happened' in that thread is because that IS where it happened. I do think that you got my posts with shp confused with others because I NEVER referred to him as 'sheep.' I think that I did refer to him as a 'bonehead' once in another thread, but that was it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do believe that it was shp that lost-it. I think those post 'types' are appropriate at times because they readily demonstrate that premies have made no more progress on their 'spiritual' path than anyone else (e.g. K doesn't work). I DO accept responsibility for my own actions and words, as well. But I don't think 'removing' those posts is the right answer, either. My point is this: I believe in the freedom of speech. Sometimes we cross some lines, but again there were NO threats (thus no broken forum rules/regulations). If I can't abide by the type of censorship that I perceive, then I remove myself from that. I'm not just talking about 'my' posts, but shp's as well. The only posts that I EVER approved of removing were those with 'threats' in them, because they severely violate forum rules. Brian, I am angry... I'm angry with M and those that perpetuate his lies and madness. When one of his perpetuators claims to be in such peace from the practice of K and then loses it when you challenge them, it's a demonstration of their 'lack of peace.' I'm sorry that this post was as long as it was, but I wanted to make sure that you understood where I was coming from, that's all. I'm sorry, as well, if you took anything I said personally. The fact that I vote 'with my feet' is a statement of fact, not a personal attack on you or anyone else. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 17:29:33 (EST)
From: Selene Email: None To: Mike Subject: outta here? No Way Message: Don't stop posting here Mike, please? I really enjoy reading what you have to say. And who will I complain to in the summer when it's 110 in the shade? People make mistakes. Deleting that stuff was a mistake. I've read worse here that didn't get deleted. And geez, I recall getting REAL upset about some stuff, but no one did anything about it because it only bothered me! So obviously Brian is only human, he doesn't get paid for this and it gets hard sometimes. I'll miss you if you go. ps - I 'quit' before and then came back. Twice I think. and I do think I would gave gottn angry if I were in your place. Hang in there. Email me if you feel like talking in private. Selene - groggy from insomnia and migraine meds but still concerned Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 10:57:48 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Jim Subject: Bad precedent Message: I don't care about bad precedents. Posts and threads have been dying a quiet pre-archive death in the inactive index for a while now. The Elves took on the responsibility of being the bad guys visibly this time to remind people that they have a choice of what to post and when to practice self-restraint. You don't have to thank them. That's their job. They try to do it tongue-in-cheek without becoming preachy in the process. There are many more people who read than post here. Those who don't have a lot of time to read, don't have any time to wade through mud fights searching for useful content that can help them with their own emotional dilemas resulting from cult involvement. When the shit got deep, Katie is the one who stepped in to remind people that CHR's post deserved far more repect than to have the thread diverted into a juvenile name-calling match. She volunteered herself to do that. The forum is un-moderated, yet threatening posts must be deleted to avoid liability. That requires someone to take on responsibility of actually reading through all that crap. She volunteered to do that too. She is 24-carat golden. Not only to me, but to those who read and post here - whether they acknowledge that with self-restraint or not. So while the comfort level stuff is obviously not the number one priority here, it hurts nobody to get a periodic reminder from the Elves that others are affected by how they use this forum. When you object enough to the bad precedent set by hijacking a heartfelt thread by being the one who steps in and says 'enough, boys', then you'll have my full agreement. The archives have more than their fair share of Jim/Bobby/Jim/Bobby/etc mudfights. Many never made it that far. Nobody missed them - especially those who had to wade through them when they were active. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 11:31:08 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Brian Subject: Bad precedent Message: Nobody missed them How do you know? Brian, Again, I agree that it's a drag when a good subject gets hijacked by just some sort of premie/ex name-calling. Mind you, and this is important, it's always the premies' fault. Always. (Although, I do think Gerry, bless his heart, has come out swinging a little early sometimes.) Mind you, I'm even more perturbed when a good subject gets lost amongst 'off-topic' posts. Are you prepared to start censoring those too? Sorry, Brian, it IS a bad precedent. I hope you'll reconsider. Otherwise, what's the big lesson from all this? Confront a premie and you're both outside? Look, Katie's a rare bird. She's said again and again she has nothing against Maharaji personally. (At the same time she's criticized him at times as robustly.. well, not quite as robustly, but she's done so as effectively as anyone here.) Mind you, jsut yesterday she agreed with Bruce that the 'premie' forum is a better place to talk about Maharaji and Knowledge than here. That, of course, is wrong. And yes, it bugged me. No, I think I agree with myself on this one. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 14:14:09 (EST)
From: x Email: None To: Jim Subject: Bad precedent Message: I am against the censorship. I respect Brian and Katie's work on this site, but I don't need help deciding what I find relevent or useful on this forum. I missed the namecalling and muslinging on the CHR thread. I read the 'cleaned up' version. I want to read it. Put it back. Please. respectfully, x Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 15:43:27 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Jim Subject: Answering Jim Message: Dear Jim - I wanted to address a couple of things you said about me in your posts above. I think Brian's addressed the main topic very well in his post below. First, this one (re me) Mind you, jsut yesterday she agreed with Bruce that the 'premie' forum is a better place to talk about Maharaji and Knowledge than here. I should have qualified my statement here. I DO think the premie forum (the unofficial one, that is) is a better place to talk to Bruce (and possibly other premies) than this forum. This forum is like a crowded, noisy room where everyone is always butting into the conversation. I have no problem with this, in fact I think it's fun sometimes, but it does affect certain kinds of communication. It IS much easier for me to communicate with Bruce on the unofficial premie forum (a.k.a. CD's Bar and Grill). It is like being in a quiet room where you can have a one on one conversation with someone. Plus, we have to be polite there, and I need that atmosphere sometimes :) I really am interested in hearing what certain premies have to say about K and M - the ones who are willing to really talk about it. So far, Bruce has been willing to discuss it with me, and I appreciate that. As you said above, I do have different views about premies than most of the rest of the people on this forum. Personally, I think that's OK if we ARE going to have a full-spectrum conversation here. Also, Jim, although it's true that I don't particularly LIKE confrontation, I'm not afraid to engage in it. I think you know this. It isn't always the best method of communication, and there are plenty of other people on here who seem to enjoy confrontational discussion. Regards, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 15:50:51 (EST)
From: eb Email: None To: Brian and Everyone Subject: Bad precedent Message: Dear Everyone, Just some thoughts: 1) Brian, I appreciate all you do to keep this forum up and running. I want to have your children. 2) Forum Elves, you guys actually slog through all the posts? What an enormous task! I rarely post because I don't want to comment unless I've read all the posts in a thread (which is very time-consuming) and I'm really interested in the topic. And then my comments are usually off-topic (or off-color). But back to the point: Thank you for your work. 3) Mike, I want you to know how much I appreciate your wit and wisdom. You are one of the posters I look for when I manage to get here. 4) Some of the bantering back and forth would be more suitable for a chat room, IMO. I think of the Forum as a permanent record rather than a conversation. 5) The Forum has been invaluable in my healing from cult-thinking. Before I found the Forum, I lingered in a sort of purgatory where I vascillated between wanting to question all the programming I'd gotten through being immersed in SS&M for 12 years, and then getting more programmed thru seeing Maharaji or videos sporadically for the next several years. I kept thinking that if I wasn't so inadequate, I'd experience something. I feel free now. BTW, Those who did their time in the ashram have my complete empathy. I know I got screwed up--hell, I was screwed up before I met Maharaji--but hearing the stories of former ashramites really brings the abuse to light. With love, eb Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 14:39:10 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Forum Elves Subject: Katie disciplines the Elves Message: I had a long phone conversation this morning with Katie and she told me that I was wrong to delete the posts. She also pointed out that by referring to her comfort, that I implied that I had deleted them at her request. That wasn't the case at all, since I didn't confer with her before doing it (mistake number one). She keeps me from making blunders when I DO talk to her first, and I shot myself in the foot while also winging her accidently in the process. But sometimes I have to make an ass of myself by not talking to her - just to keep in practice. Anyway, I only deleted them after believing that the issue had been decided that they were extemporaneous ('Boys, play nice! - Sorry, Mom'). So I just deleted them so that others wouldn't have to wade through them is all (mistake number two). I only brought Katie's name into it as a tip of the hat to her for having taken on the responsibility of settling things back down when they got crazy. I was completely unmindful of how that could be interpreted in the minds of the readers here - that she put me up to it or something. As much as blood-letting can be therapeutic for us at times, it can also take a toll on Katie to have to read through them looking for those people needing support and for posts that might present a problem to the website. We talk to each other on the phone and exchange private whinings about things, so I know that she's sensitive to being inundated by it. She sometimes takes a break from reading to get away from it. My personal fear is that she will find life more enjoyable without the grief and not come back. Did I say fear?? I mean PANIC. I don't think I can do this myself at times without her much-appreciated support and love. Big smooch to her. And to her phonebill-paying husband. (But I still like teasing her unmercifully here, BTW. I like it a LOT!) Threads DO get deleted before archiving if they're just fluff ('Hey Whoever, email me! - Okay, I will!'). These threads aren't discouraged here, but there's no reason to preserve them for posterity. One of the facts of weblife is that there is a limit on disk space. Eventually, all the Forum I & II archives will have to be squeezed into digests. The Forum III archiver doesn't allow me to remove fluff threads without listing and deleting posts individually from the raw archive (dump of posts) file sent by the server, so I try to catch those in the inactive index while they are still in threaded format. But, no Jim, I haven't actually deleted any Jim/Bobby fights that I can recall (although I've been tempted). That was meant for illustration. I DID want to point out (as lightly and elfishly as possible) that what is posted to the forum becomes someone else's experience when they read it. Many of the people who read here never post, so they are invisible and have no advocate here unless we all become that ourselves. I hate to think that they wander off from what they might view as a slugging match when there is so much that you all are able to contribute to whatever they're going through. I didn't stay here myself for the fighting, but for the support you gave when I first found the forum, and for the experiences that you related that helped me to see that I wasn't alone in what I was going through and that I hadn't seen what was going on behind Maharaji's curtain. That said, I have to admit that I threw my own share of blows at people here and sometimes still do. So I'm not above the behavior, or blameless. Gerry and Mike, I lumped a response to you both into the same post and didn't indicate who said what (I got mixed up on most of it). I don't want anyone to feel that they have to stop participating in the forum on some ethical grounds. Sometimes that still happens, but it's not intentionally invited. I read both of your responses to my post above and thank you both for your understanding of a blundering forum master. Censorship is always a sensitive subject, and often people see it where it isn't intended to occur. There is no censorship policy here other than self-censorship - officially. But I try to take into account what is considered offensive to people as a whole. That involves some judgement call on someone's part. I don't like it to be me, so I try to discuss things with Katie and others before acting on a post or thread. But I don't want to set or be bound by policy on this, because that can quickly spiral into some bizarre enjoyinglife-like policy page written in legalese giberish that not even Jim could understand. I really do try to maintain an open and available forum for everyone to use. Sometimes I've made mistakes, and probably will again. This forum is not password protected and ANYONE with a browser is able to attempt to disrupt it. Not everyone who posts here is or was interested in the subject matter. There are also other situations that can crop up that require me to take some 'censoring'-type action. I have to put the welfare of the forum/site ahead of the approval of people at times, and am not always able to explain my reasoning here - where any weaknesses can be advertised openly to other potential problem-makers. So a measure of blind trust is required that most of us are reluctant to award to anyone after having been duped by you-know-who. [There. How's that, Katie?] Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 15:12:08 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Brian Subject: Katie disciplines the Elves Message: I didn't want to comment on this thread until Brian had a chance to say something. I have made some whopping big mistakes on the forum and he has NEVER called me on it in public. I appreciate that very much and try to be as respectful to him as he is to me. Brian has said almost all I wanted to say in his most humble and eloquent post above (thanks very much, Brian). I do hope everyone can understand that Brian and I are human and we will make mistakes at times. Please forgive us for the times when we screw up. Also, please remember that we live in different states and aren't always able to communicate on these matters as quickly as we would like to. (Thanks, by the way, to my husband Peter for paying for all those phone calls to Ohio!) Katie P.S. to x - I'm sorry you didn't get to see the mudslinging that got deleted, and since I lack technical expertise, I don't know if Brian can put them back. Maybe Gerry can re-enact them for you. All I can say is stick around for more mudslinging to come. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 16:04:42 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: Katie and Brian Subject: Katie disciplines the Elves Message: One thing I really appreciate about this site is that when we make mistakes, we usually acknowledge the fact, while at enjoyingsittingaroundwithmyfingersinmyeyes.org never acknowledge any mistakes or errors. I have noticed this same problem with our premie visitors; SHP, when asked to cite sources has a pouty fit and then offers up Josephus. When it is pointed out that Josephus said nothing about Jesus's financial situation, he asks me to imagine being a Talmudic scholar in first century Palestine. I like the fact that we can admit our mistakes; it must be very difficult to be perfect like a premie. Also, gerry, what is the url for that un-censored premie site? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 16:19:55 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Katie disciplines the Elves Message: Hi Mickey, The premie forum is : http://www.paradise-web.com/plus_le/plus.mirage?who=forumlite The forum I created this morning is: http://apps.vantagenet.com/aforums/thread.asp?id=1998106134233 Sorry we couldn't hook up this past weekend. It's your busy time, I understand, and we had so little time and so much to do. The Calder and Diebenkorn exhibits were fantastic, btw. Love SF, see ya next time, hopefully. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 16:42:32 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Jim disciplines Gerry Message: The forum I created this morning is: http://apps.vantagenet.com/aforums/thread.asp?id=1998106134233 Gerry, Gerry, Gerry, Did you REALLY have to do this? Like now? Immediately? I'm sorry, man, sometimes you seem sooooo impetuous. Brian's already backed off on the censorship thing. Why try to fragment the discussion needlessly? You know, in retrospect, do you think MMT was worthwhile? I don't. It does seem that all it's been is a self-serving extended-daycare project for Keith. What's the point? You jump fast, Gerry. I'm still amazed at how vehemently you jumped down Art Chappelle's throat. Likewise JW. Have you guys even said a word to each other since? Are you happy about that? I'm opposed to censorship too. But, like I say, it doesn't look like that was more than a transitory problem here. To Brian's great credit, he really, thoroughly reviewed his position and demonstrated once again the qualities of a fair and operating mind. The page is strengthened in the process. We should support that gesture, don't you think? Gerry, the weirdest thing about you is how differently you present yourself here and in person. No one who's never met you but who only knows you from your posts would fail to be surprised. I don't mean to embarrass you (well, it's not my primary goal, anyway) but you are one of the more genteel, laid-back and simply nice guys I've met in a long time. You are so far from ascerbic in real life I almost wanted to check your luggage tags. But here, sometimes, dear brother, you're simply rash. You know I, too, love a good argument and I like calling premies on their shit. No point pulling punches. They can barely feel them anyway. But ... well, you get my drift, don't you? I'd like to see you and JW make up, quite frankly. Yes, that's been bugging me. And now to think you're going to square off against Brian... hey, man, that's not good. Please take this in the good, self-righteous spirit it was intended. My faults are too innumerable to mention. Self-criticize only. That's my advice to everyone. :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 17:18:31 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: Now you've done it! Message: Just kidding... Thanks Jim, that was a neat post and I appreciate the effort that went into it. I think impetuous is my middle name. The new forum IS there but it's only the Keith Channel, recycled. I don't expect any traffic and it was a protest move only. I did this much earlier this morning before Brian had a chance to respond. MMT WAS definitely worth the effort for exactly the reasons you cited. Think of it as Keith's Kage. Would you want him posting that nonsense here? It would drive us all to distraction. You are right about Arthur Chapelle and Arthur, if you are listening, my apologies. Perhaps this is not enough. I'll e-mail him. Yeah, I feel pretty ragged about JW, too. I blew a great opportunity to meet with him in person this past weekend. I regret that. I have addressed a couple of his posts in the spirit of reconciliation, but that too, is obviously inadequate. Sorry JW, I think you are a great guy and have, no doubt, thought things out a lot deeper than I have. You challenge my belief systems, and for someone who finds great value in letting go of the BS, I should be grateful. I am, and I sincerely apologize. I wholeheartedly support Brian's work here and really do understand his chagrin at the drivel I got into with... (I can't help it) SHeeP. People have told me for years how laid back I am. It never ceases to amaze me. Even Patty says it. I sometimes think I need a name tag to remind myself who I am. Seriously, though, I thoroughly enjoy people and love to meet and talk to strangers. I got to do a lot of that this past weekend in SF and revel in it. People of all ages, shapes, colors. To me it is the spice of life. No chance I'm getting ready to square off with Brian. He works too hard and is too dedicated to deserve an ounce of shit from an ascerbic, rash idiot like me. I can understand how you would think that, though. Please take this in the good, self-righteous spirit it was intended. My faults are too innumerable to mention. Self-criticize only. That's my advice to everyone. I think I have. But ''self criticize only?'' What is this, the Red Chinese Cultural Revolution? No more slagging Goober and his minions? Oh I get it, the primary directive: ex-premie=good, premie=bad. I can live with that. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 17:41:05 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: All Subject: Mike disciplines himself Message: God, I love discipline.... gimme more, gimme more! Just Kidding! Seriously, I think that Brian and Katie do an absolutely superb job here. I jumped before Brian had a real chance to explain and that wasn't fair, either. Concerning premie confrontations: I just can't seem to help myself when I see the premie-facade begin to fail. Although I prefer (believe it or not) to keep a conversation civil, I will egg-on a premie when the 'peace and love' wall begins to crumble. I think it was Helen that was talking about the possibility of a recent ex-premie being afraid to come back here after being here as a 'premie.' That argument has some merit, IMHO. I'll try to be a little more selective about my posts (read that: lurk more, speak less). TO KATIE & BRIAN: Thanks for the posts above and, most of all, for a great forum. Mike Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 17:48:12 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Mike Subject: Mike disciplines himself Message: Whew! Glad you really didn't leave us, Mike!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 22:14:24 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Mike Subject: Cut the bull, Mike Message: I'll try to be a little more selective about my posts (read that: lurk more, speak less). If you've got something to say, SAY it, whenever you've got something to say. Later for this 'lurk more, speak less' bullshit. Everybody loves you, man. Sniff, sniff :( Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 26, 1998 at 09:44:19 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Mike Subject: Cut the bull, Mike Message: I agree with Jerry. Mike with a muzzle is a bummer since we all like what you have to say. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 17:44:59 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Now you've done it! Message: Gerry I'm impressed with the spirit with which you took Jim's feedback. It's kind of humbling. Hope I can take criticism in the same spirit next time I get some (wait, it's holiday time and I'm seeing my mother-in-law tomorrow) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 20:44:39 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Helen Subject: Now you've done it! Message: Helen, You seeing in-laws, too? Give us strength... Gerry, I agree with Helen. You handled that with a lot of class. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 26, 1998 at 00:08:08 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Good Message: Thanks, Gerry, for taking my criticism in the right spirit. Really, good work. Now, one last thing: are you sure Keith and Mick are one and the same? Thanks again, Jim Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 26, 1998 at 00:17:42 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: Good Message: Thanks, Gerry, for taking my criticism in the right spirit. Really, good work. Now, one last thing: are you sure Keith and Mick are one and the same? Jim, I have to admit, I'm waffling here. ''Mick'' has sent me e-mail which has a green background. I don't think Keith is smart enought to figure out how to do that. Thin, I admit, and that's why I'm still on the fence on this one. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 16:34:46 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Wrong URL for Premie Forum Message: Dear Michael - The URL for the unofficial premie forum is: http://www.paradise-web.com/plus_le/plus.mirage?who=premieforum The URL Gerry gave you (by accident, I'm sure) was for the Magical Mystery Tour forum, which is a flame-free forum where people can talk about anything they want. Mostly ex-premies post there. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 16:39:36 (EST)
From: gErRy Email: None To: Katie Subject: Thanks for the correction (nt) Message: I AM fried! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 18:21:24 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: Katie Subject: Wrong URL for Premie Forum Message: Uhmmm, I was only joking about the URL; Gerry had posted the same link one million times (I know, you've told me a thousand times not to exaggerate) and I was just making a cheap joke. I apologise and really have no plan to visit either the Keith Channel (no way could I stand that!) or the other place. Also, I'm sorry that I missed Gerry and Patty last weekend, but it is the start of the crazy time for me. Happy Thanksgiving to all! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 26, 1998 at 13:54:34 (EST)
From: gerry Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Mick, you ARE a commie (nt) Message: good one :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 27, 1998 at 13:00:19 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: gerry Subject: I thought he was a comic (nt) Message: he he he nt Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 16:57:16 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Mickey , Katie, Brian Subject: Katie disciplines the Elves Message: I agree, Mickey. Boy, I tell you, you can miss a lot on this forum just by going to work each day. I'm trying to catch up on this most recent controversy. Katie and Brain, please don't burn out. We beg of you. We need you not only because of your computer knowledge and commitment but because you both are 1) kind, 2) respectful, 3)civil, and 4) balanced and humorous. I know how hard it is to remain civil when premies post here. My blood has started to boil on several occasions and I've frankly felt like throttling a few people, as if that would knock some sense into them. Me, the one who always wants to be the peacemaker!. So I can see how easily things can degenerate into a Roman colesium atmosphere or Jerry Springer show with premies and ex-premies beating each other up and the spectators cheering on the sidelines. I do think restraint, civility, and respect are good values to strive for. I'm concerned that a premie who we've argued with will one day see the light and not feel safe to return here for some support. Cognitive dissonance can lead to some strange mental states without support. Just had to put my two cents in. Little Yiddish Grandma thinks that we should all have a little Maneschevits and make a toast to the fact that we can discuss these things in the first place. Love, Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 16:04:50 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Brian Subject: Katie disciplines the Elves Message: Brian, It takes a big man to admit a mistake. Too bad Maharaji can't do it. Anyway, thanks again for all of your hard work. I know I post a LOT of off topic stuff. I have a weird point of view that premies who read here need to see that there IS life without and/or after Maharaji. I think it's really important to show that we are three dimensional (for lack of a better phrase). Maybe I'm the only one who thinks this, though. I'm sure it's not worth saving stuff about skeet shooting, cats or children's books in the archives. I maintain that it's ok to post that stuff, for the reasons I've already stated. Not everyone who sees the light is stuck in an angry or confused mode forever. Mike, I hope that you stick around and continue to post. Thanks again to you and Katie, VP Saved from aspirant hell in 1998 Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 16:29:45 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: VP Subject: Off-topic posts Message: Hi Veep - I don't care if people post off-topic posts. I do plenty of off-topic posting myself. I also think it adds depth to the forum. I just hope people can understand why we are not preserving off-topic posts for the permanent record. Here's the rule I follow: I NEVER delete anything that has anything to do Maharaji, premies, Maharaji's organization, etc (see title of forum). Thus the mudslinging contest that got deleted above would have been preserved. I hope that's OK with everyone. I try to delete the off-topic posts when they are near the bottom of the inactive, so most people have gotten to read them. As Brian said, once the posts are archived, they are very hard to delete. Eventually, as he also said, we will have to digest ALL the archives (I'm not looking forward to that!). Take care, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 16:44:04 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Katie Subject: Off-topic posts Message: Katie, I feel badly that you and Brian have to take time to delete our off topic posts. (I have NO problem with you deleting anything I write, BTW) Has it taken up so much time to do this that a On-topic only rule needs to go into effect? I can stay on topic if it will help you and Brian-yawn! (Or I can try to anyway) VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 16:50:57 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: VP Subject: Off-topic posts Message: I honestly don't mind cleaning up the off-topic posts. It's easy - sort of a menial job. I usually read, or at least skim, all the threads (I am a very fast reader) so I basically know what's in them. As I said earlier, I do think they add to the forum, help people get to know each other, and relieve some of the heaviness that's sometimes present here. So post away, Veep - what brand of cigars was that again? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 16:45:31 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Katie Subject: Off-topic posts (ot) Message: So what about this Maharaji character? Just kidding. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 17:05:45 (EST)
From: helen Email: None To: Katie Subject: Off-topic posts Message: What you're not saving my PMS posts and the post about my toe-jam? Sounds like you have a good plan. (; Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 27, 1998 at 12:20:00 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: helen Subject: Off-topic posts Message: Wait a minute, Helen. I'm not saying we delete ALL the off-topic posts! Seriously, we mostly just delete if there's a long thread of them. So your PMS/toe jam may be preserved for posterity. Oy! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 17:59:16 (EST)
From: Diz Email: None To: VP Subject: Katie disciplines the Elves Message: Brian, Katie, VP, Gerry, Jim, Mike, Helen, and others on this thread, Love you all. Well sorted. I learn something from you guys and gals every time I log in - not just about freedom from cult thinking, but about how to be a human being. THANK YOU Diz Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 20:51:04 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Diz Subject: Love you too,(nt) Message: nt Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 00:28:47 (EST)
From: rmt Email: rmt0916@aol.com To: Everyone Subject: Hmmm... Message: I just dropped by - doing a little surfing. I must admit I find it interesting and somewhat peculiar that people who claim to have quit following someone's teachings spend so much time and effort to let everyone else know about it. When I quit attending the Catholic church I didn't start a web-site about it. Could it be that you have to continually convince yourself you made the right choice? By defining yourselves as 'ex-premies' you are necessarily still tying yourselves to teachings you say you no longer espouse. Let it go. What is the actual point of this site? Are you really trying to help others or just alleviate some inner pangs you are experiencing? Many of you freely admit to having had a great experience following these teachings - but now you seem caught in some mode of sharing misery. Perhaps you were better off before? Judging by many of the statements at least you had some good times. I guess my question is: What's wrong with that? Maybe the teacher is just a man - what's wrong with that if what he teaches helps people. Personal opinion - but it sounds like it's time for you folks to get on with your lives - and leave other people to theirs. If you truly don't like it - fine - move forward; but don't carry it on your back - who needs extra baggage in this life? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 01:07:28 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: rmt Subject: Hmmm...Ha! Message: I have no shame in saying that my purpose for posting here is to be a thorn in the side of a false god called Maharaji. And it is with relish that I see other people freed from the bondage of Maharaji's mad cult and able to think for themselves. It's early morning here in the UK and I have a business to run but this here forum is just an interest for me. Of course I have a life. By the way, when I need your advice, I'll ask for it. But don't hold your breath. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 02:20:14 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Ditto Message: Yes, David, exactly. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 02:55:11 (EST)
From: Barney Email: None To: rmt Subject: Hmmm... Message: Not being Catholic I'm probably not entitled to say this, but the involvement in this Cult probably makes late Catholicism seem like a short trip through a Halloween funhouse where you pay to get in and somewhere through the maze is the way out. Typically, as I imagine, most organized religions have limits and when you get home from school or church or mass or whatever it's mostly over and out of your hair, depending on how deep into it you are. This Cult pretty much was with us 24 hours a day, telling us what to think, what to feel, what to do, etc. In particular, we were brainwashed into believing that we, the world, and everything we knew was false and the only truth and way out was from the strict adherence to the tenents of the Cult. Sure, Judeo-Christianity has HELL, but for us we not only had HELL, but we had reincarnation into infinite Hells. The carrot on the stick was like heaven, but even better because you could be in Heaven while you were alive. Sounds like a lot of motivation, doesn't it? Well, bottomline was that a lot of us got hurt and we are trying to put together our lives after losing the most productive years and our youth. That's a lot to give up and a lot to forget. Hanging out with everybody here is a way to communicate and validate our experiences that if we were left alone with might be too confusing. I suspect other people from other heavy cults could understand what's going on here as we would on their website. But, yeah, I'm sure a stranger off the street coming into this site would wonder what's going on and why the intense interest even by people who had left 10 or even 20 years ago. Man, those inquisitions with the whips and the racks were intense Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 05:14:04 (EST)
From: Adole Email: benedikt.bros@phreak.co.at To: rmt Subject: Hmmm... Message: Why are you talking about something you dont understand!!!! This expirience we all share here is not just the awakening after a party with too much alcohol, where you can say- ok it happened, its just a little headache and thats all over the story. This time of our lives was affecting us in every possible way and it may sound to you that we had good times, but I must tell you that this 'good times' also cost human lifes. It costs the loss of a loving family and friends, the loss of health, the loss of your own self. And it is not easy to find yourself again after such an horrortrip or to built up a new life that is worth living, not mentioning the effort it takes to get back the respect and trust of those who sorround you. This was and is part of our lives and it will be a part as long as we live. And the danger is to forget. We must never forget how far one man drove us to, so that it will never happen again. And if we can help others not even to enter this hell then I must say Iam happy. Even if there is just one soul we can save with this forum, it is worth it. Other people visit their phsychiatric doctor at least twice a weak to talk about all kind of nonsense.We here made it all by ourselves and to speak of me Iam proud of it and it is very helpful for me to share my expiriences and so is it for the others. So please dont judge somthing you have not expirienced yourself.Be happy about it and live your life and let us live our own. At least now we can say that we have a life that is worth living. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 18:44:41 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Adole Subject: Hmmm... Message: Well said, Adole. Glad you are here and feeling better. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 07:58:10 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: rmt Subject: Hmmm... II Message: rmt: I must admit I find it interesting and somewhat peculiar that you took 240 words to say what could have been said in 20. Just surfing are you? Right... -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 16:10:29 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Hmmm... II To Scott T. Message: Scott, Your bullshit detector is right on target. I thought the same thing. Check out the last sentence: ... this life Sound familiar? Snicker Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 22:35:47 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: rmt Subject: You sound like a premie Message: nt Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 22:27:31 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: I can't do it (but I got it!) Message: 1) I can't go there anymore. Even I, obsessed, imbalanced, vindictive, petty -- above all obsessed -- I can't read any more of those 'lvies' or 'expressions'. Ever go for coffee or lunch by yourself and really want something to read? You know, even a couple of pages from last Thursday's food section. Anything. Ever felt that way? Well I have. I've grabbed at an old Reader's Digest... hell, what am I talking about? Something like that would be a real treasure for the moments I've got in mind. How about times when you end up REALLY studying the menu -- again -- just for something to do? Well, I'm at a point where if all I had was a print out of some of these 'expressions' and such... no, I wouldn't, couldn't read them. There's nothing there. It just ain't happening. And I'M a human being, I should know. It just ain't happening. 2) Still, I think I know what's going on. Maharaji AND premies used to give wilder, more daring satsang. Maharaji set us off on a wild goose chase for 'realization' that went nowhere. He got cornered by his own words, hoisted, one could say, on his own canard. So Maharaji retreats into the blandest, emptiest speech possible and shuts up his premies in the process. The premies now show Maharaji that they can talk that way too, hoping that maybe he'll release them and let them talk again. The barnyard's the same but the birds have all learnt a bizarre new walk and an empty new talk. They're all doing the funky chicken. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 02:00:59 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: Jim Subject: I can't do it (but I got it!) Message: What did I tell ya last month? I said I couldn't go there any more because it was just too inane. I was shocked that you were able to keep going there until the 'project' started; I could understand why one would go there to read the bogus stories, but otherwise, that site is just too boring and syrupy and inane. I'm glad that you have finally seen the light, Jim. Also, there was a little article in the Sunday S.F. Chronicle/Examiner about the Dawkins/Cleese discussion that I am cutting out and sending to you. It's not very informative, but it has a good photo! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 02:14:31 (EST)
From: Sir D Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Jim Subject: I can't do it (but I got it!) Message: Am I the only person here who never goes to the enjoyingthislifeoffantasy.org? I have no interest in it. It's a bore. I read the post by Glen Whittaker and that was enough especially when I heard that Ron-did I ever tell you the story about when I was sick in India and Maharaji told me to leave my sickness in my blankets-Geeves was contributing. Anyone who was around in the early seventies knows the score. Maharaji WAS the Lord then and we told people that, unashamedly. Glen Whittaker pulled no punches in his 'give yourself to the Lord' satsangs. Anyone who is still involved now must be satisfied with less than the Lord. I cannot understand that nor ever relate to such people. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 08:37:00 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Sir D Subject: I can't do it (but I got it!) Message: Dear Sir, I feel the same about enjoyinglife. I can't stand to go there. I have a hard enough time, although I enjoy it, keeping up with email and an all to infrequent visit to this site. To waste my precious time at that cardboard site...I'd have to have a maid and a sugar daddy, at least! So in short looks like I won't be having the time to while away bored hours there. :) Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 21:28:02 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Robyn Subject: I can't do it (but I got it!) Message: Hi Robyn WHen you find your maid and sugar daddy, send them my way! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 22:48:47 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Helen Subject: I can't do it (but I got it!) Message: Dear Helen, Just stealing a minute to check in. I could use that maid tonight! Have a great holiday and the rest of you enjoy your day at work tomorrow! :) Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 26, 1998 at 09:48:57 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Robyn Subject: I can't do it (but I got it!) Message: You too RObyn. Sorry I haven't seen you around the forum as much lately. SOunds like you have a lot of cooking to do for the holiday--have a happy one. We'll be off to the Big B on the Bay (Baltimore) soon. Fortunately, I only have to make one dish--my mother-in-law is a fabulous cook and doesn't want me in her kitchen anyway! Lucky for me! Seriously, have a great one, Robyn Love, Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 22:19:24 (EST)
From: Sydney Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Rotten Vegetables Message: SHP, You are so desperate to believe aren't you? You've replaced one religious obsession with another. Well, believe in the meditation by all means. I think its still pretty cool too and it helps to relieve stress. But there is no way you should feel obligated to the big GM. Don't continue to support him. The 'rotten vegetable' satsang is very true. Padarthanand relayed those ideas to me during a pre-knowledge session back in the 70s in Sydney, Australia. It really scared the SHIT out of me but I went ahead and received K anyway. From that day on I ALWAYS felt guilty about not doing enough meditation and service and often seriously wished I had never received K. It felt like such a burden and yet big GM had promised such joy. These days I see it as a useful tool and an enhancement in my life but big GM is a goddamn big fat arsehole. Take your blinkers off, SHP and don't waste the rest of your life trying to please a thankless master. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 00:54:15 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Sydney Subject: I'll re-phrase that Message: The 'Rotten vegetable' satsang was given by Maharaji. Yes that's true but that is the only thing that's true. It was an untrueth which he uttered. People who (so called) receive knowledge and don't practise it do not go rotten. Nothing untoward happens to them and all that is happening is that they received four old meditation techniques which they don't wish to practise. There never was any giving of knowledge by Maharaji or his instructors. In some cases, meditation on the techniques attributed (wrongly) to Maharaji, can do more damage than good. Meditation of any kind is a personal thing and unless a person feels a psychological need to do it, to attempt it is a waste of time and counterproductive. Maharaji's method of using fear and guilt to try to make people meditate is a despicable thing. And it has never worked for the benefit of anyone, least of all him. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 20:13:06 (EST)
From: david m Email: None To: Everyone Subject: The Letter.... K...ECT Message: Hey everybody.... I just got done reading the letter thread and i have to wonder.... How could somebody so close to M and Knowledge write such a thing...I dont know if its the right thing to release the letter...but as a observer from afar...../that letter sound crazy sure theres the usuall Love ,Peace... Hope.... bit....But it sound like the Durga Ji is really in trouble......And you know what, she might be the one to bring the whole trip down....Just a thought...dave Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 21:34:31 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: None To: david m Subject: The Letter.... K...ECT Message: Let's hope that on those dark evenings when she's alone, she surfs the web and finds this site. She has a problem though. SHe did want to divorce Maharaji but he said she would never see her children if she left him. He has trapped her in his web. I don't see how she can get out. SHe will know at first hand how ruthless and uncaring Maharaji is. I think she has just given up and resigned herself to her fate. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 23:24:25 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Sir David Subject: The Letter.... K...ECT Message: Good point, Sir D. Mothers will put up with a lot of shit for their children, Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 21:37:26 (EST)
From: Opinion Email: None To: david m Subject: The Letter.... K...ECT Message: Yeah, I feel the same way as you david m. I sure bet her Mom & Dad and her sister were really pissed off at not being able to see her even though she was so ill. Sure sounds like the GM wants to keep her away from any outside influence just in case she is having second thoughts about all this guru stuff. I wonder if she would have the strenghth to pull it all down or maybe its just too damn hard. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 06:20:43 (EST)
From: chr Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Relationships and children Message: I usually just drop in every now and then and read,rather than post,messages.Some messages about relationships and sex caught my attention a while back. One of the most damaging aspects of M's whole game was/is? the effect on children and relationships. The push to be in an ashram was so strong that families and children suffered immensely. I deserted my own daughter to move into the ashram-at the time,encouraged by mahatmas and M's ' profound' wisdom about ashrams, I believed wholeheartedly that I was doing the right thing.Years later when the ashrams closed my daughter came to live with me again.By this time she was a teenager and I guess I tried my best to make up for all the the lost time and her very real pain of being deserted by me , her father , at three years old.I know of premies who were personally called by M away from their families either permanently or for extended periods of time(especially during the plane era),causing great hardship on many levels to these families.M was aware of their circumstances but didnt seem to care.We all just regarded it as a test or whatever the prevailing bullshit of the time was. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 11:04:35 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: chr Subject: Relationships and children Message: Dear Chr, I think you are an ex-premie, maybe I am wrong and Gerry knows you from another thread, I haven't been around much but I just wanted to say that I agree with what you say here and I don't see where you even say 'I love you' so either you have a history with Gerry or something is confused, me I guess. Hi, Gerry! Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 11:16:17 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: glyng@techline.com To: Robyn Subject: Relationships and children Message: Hi Robyn, Please have a closer read. I also agree wholeheartedly with chr and was appreciative of her honesty and willingness to talk about what is obviously a painful experience for her. I guess I just have this other initialed person SHP whom I call SheeP on my mind. I find him/her especially devious and offensive. Sorry for deluding your excellent post Chr, I should have made my remarks elsewhere. God knows there are plenty of other places to do it. The SHeeP seems to be enjoying itself bleating all over the Ex forum. Hope this clears it up Robyn, or e-mail me if you want. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 12:17:03 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: chr Subject: homonyms Message: I wrote Sorry for deluding your excellent post Chr, I should have made my remarks elsewhere. diluting, not deluding. Sorry Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 08:39:48 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Gerry Subject: Gerry Message: Dear Gerry, Gottcha honey! I'd love to email you but I have to work, make pies, vegtable dishes, seitan and on and on and on and maybe even clean! But maybe not. Love and have a great holiday! Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 14:41:04 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: chr Subject: Relationships and children Message: Dear chr - Thanks for your very moving post. Although I don't have children, I have friends that had children when they were premies, and they say the same thing that you do. One of my best friends was constantly consumed with guilt because she and her husband were householders and not ashram premies. They had very small children so couldn't move into the ashram, but ended up moving to Miami to work on the plane project so they could do full-time service. This eventually resulted in the break-up of their marriage, and there have been lasting negative effects on their children - serious ones. Other people on the forum have also said that they felt that they had to choose Maharaji over their children. As to relationships between premies, that's a subject that I'm personally familiar with. I had a fairly long-term relationship with another premie and it ended up being impossible. There was so much pressure to move into the ashram or to at least live the ashram lifestyle (celibacy, Maharaji comes before your partner, etc.) that it ruined our relationship. I was less devoted and thus felt less guilty than my partner, but the conflict just tore him up. Several times he became extremely angry, a few times even violent, because he thought I was distracting him away from Maharaji. Also, we both felt that our personal needs in the relationship should come AFTER satsang, service, and meditation, and that didn't leave much room for a loving relationship. I really hope that you and your daughter have been able to work things out. It sounds as if you really tried (and I'm sure are trying), and that helps a lot. Take care, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 14:53:25 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: chr Subject: Relationships and children Message: One of the most damaging aspects of M's whole game was/is? the effect on children and relationships. The push to be in an ashram was so strong that families and children suffered immensely. This was certainly true from what I saw. There was a huge effort to get as many premies as possible into the ashrams in the late 70s and early 80s. Lots of divorces and moving around of children resulted. At that time, Guru Maharaj Ji was giving satsang at every program, which we either heard because we attended, or listened to in the endless 'phone feeds' we got, saying that the purpose of a premies life was to devote it 100% to him, and to SURRENDER your life to him. It became a real mantra for him. The ashram was the way to do that. In the ashram meetings he spewed out threats of what would happen to you if you ever left the ashram. It really wasn't an option if you believed he was the lord and were trying to do what he was directing. Of course, the initiators and the premies picked up what he said and repeated it. Maharaji gave direction to the initiators that the ashram was the place a premie should be if at all possible. I remember premies with spouses and kids feeling very much like 'second class' premies and many did try to dedicate themselves anyway, with the obvious problems for families. The plane project, with all the people who came to Miami to work on the plane, just magnified the problem. It was really reprehensible because just a few years later, Guru Maharaj Ji just dumped the ashram premies, without explanation, many of whom believed him when he said it was a life-long commitment. The premies were then trying to pick up the pieces of their lives. I don't believe M ever really talked about it, apparently because he didn't really care. Premies had to try to put their families back together, try to support themselves, pay off ashram debts and all the rest. There are quite a few ex-ashram premies who feel pretty bitter about this. I am one of them. I think these events are some of the most despicable of all the things Maharaji has done. I didn't have kids myself, so I guess in a sense I was fortunate that I didn't put them through the cult-experience. I did cause a lot of pain to my family and friends, and I did cause a lot of problems for myself in my own life because I tried to surrender my life to BM. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 14:58:31 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: JW Subject: Relationships and children Message: To the point, JW, nice work. I can't understand how people can read something like this and still follow this guy. Really, it is a complete mystery to me. How about ''enlightening'' me on this, anyone. SHeeP, want to bleat about this one? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 15:05:56 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: JW Subject: Once again, JW Message: JW: You've done it again! VERY WELL PUT and accurate, too (IMHO). I was one of those up and coming second-class living-in-a-premie-house types that never quite made it into an ashram (thank god, if there is one!) But I do understand the attempt to really dedicate your life to something and then have it pulled out from underneath you. It was a very callous act, on his part, to do that to you guys. I know that you may not like the comparison, but please take it in the way it is intended: From a loyalty and dedication point of view, ashram premies would have made the very best soldiers. You can't 'buy' that kind of dedication... You either have it or you don't.... and it's rare as hell! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 16:54:47 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Mike Subject: Once again, JW Message: I think it's a good analogy, Mike. The ashramites were available to go anywhere, at anytime, to serve the lord. We weren't even supposed to have friends, and no ties to anything. If the powers that be said move, you did. You didn't select your 'service' the place where you lived, or who you lived with. So, in that sense, it was like the military -- surrender and do what you are told for the good of serving Maharaji. We turned over all our money and we even sold flowers on the street, just like the Moonies to raise even more money for Maharaji. I was transferred around the country a number of times in the ashram. Each time I was so thankful because it was a sign to me that Guru Maharaj Ji was directing my life and I had the opportunity to go wherever he wanted me, to do whatever he wanted me to do. I remember one guy in the ashram never completely unpacked his clothes because he wanted to be available to serve Maharaji anywhere at a moment's notice. Some of the ashram premies were pretty nuts but by and large they were very nice, sincere people, if maybe a little 'gung ho' and gullible. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 17:41:00 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: chr Subject: Relationships and children Message: Hi chr, I really appreciate your bravery in telling about your experiences. I agree with Mike when he says 'how can anyone still follow Maharaji after reading this?' I too would like to hear how SHP & other premies would justify this. Then again, I am tired in talking in circles. In this case, this is a clear cut case of right and wrong. Would Maharaji have wanted his own children ripped away from Durga Ji when they were 3 years old? I highly doubt it. You'd better believe he hired the finest midwives, lactation consultants, infant massage specialists, etc. to pamper his wife and enhance his childrens' development. Knowing that he consults with experts in regards to his children and their education, he undoubtably knows about healthy attachment and its effects on children's stress hormone levels, brain development, relationships, etc, etc. You'd better believe his children are in the finest schools with the most progressive educational philosophies. That he and his Mahatmas could recommend that mothers & fathers leave their children so they could live in the ashram is the most damning, despicable thing I have heard yet. To undermine children's chances at healthy development, and to undermine families this way is nothing short of evil. This truly is like something out of Brave New World. chr, I believe that the early years are important but I also believe that most children are resilient. What a gift it is to your child for you to say to her that you made a mistake and are trying to make up for it now. These are healing words for a teenager to hear...I wish you all the best. I don't blame you for what you did--I hold Maharaji responsible. After all, when we surrendered to him, we trusted him implicitly that he was guiding us in the right directions. How little we knew that his prescriptions were so unwholesome for our bodies, minds, and families. Love, Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 17:59:43 (EST)
From: Diz Email: None To: Helen, chr Subject: Relationships and children Message: Dear chr I won't say a lot, because this subject is a bit close to the bone for me. But thank you for your post. I too wish you all the best with your daughter. Not many people are able to face mistakes they made in their life, acknowledge them, and try to make amends. You sound like a very honest and sincere person. Helen, almost certainly Mj never said 'leave your kids'. He just said that dedication to him and K was the most important thing in life. His 'out' would be, I suspect, that premies drew their own conclusions. I personally felt a huge conflict between my love for my kids, and my love for K and MJ. This was probably the thing that really drove me to question - it just felt so WRONG that these two things should be in conflict. I couldn't see why there was any need for conflict. Why couldn't tuning in to the energy inside go hand in hand with an ethical code that ENCOURAGED people to treat others with respect - starting with those most close at hand? Why couldn't responsibilities be acknowledged, and taken on with joy? But this wasn't the line, by and large. I have heard MJ himself explicitly deny any responsibility for his premies; and I note that he's STILL having a go at those who are silly enough to put their responsibilities in a place of importance in their lives. It was those who really tried to live out what MJ was saying who got in the most trouble. I think some premies just split their lives in two, and have a 'real' life which revolves around MJ and K, and a 'worldly' life which allows for family, job, maybe some friends and a movie or two. Personally, I couldn't stand the 'split' - I felt so strongly the need for integration between the different parts of myself. Diz Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 22:40:41 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Diz Subject: Relationships and children Message: Hey Diz, good to see your name up there on that post. I know that GM never said 'leave your kids'. But the instant he heard of Mahatmas urging folk in this direction, he should have issued one big statement (or agya) forbidding this. As the leader, he should have had more control over what was happening in his name. I'm sorry you had to go through that experience of being torn in two. Glad you are free of that now. Love, Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 06:05:41 (EST)
From: chr Email: None To: Helen Subject: Relationships and children Message: Thanks everyone for the replies. I probably wasn't clear enough on a couple of points. My daughter is now 25 and we have a great relationship. I know there are still scars for her from this time but we've worked through most of them. I am a he, not a she and I have had two children since this time who have had completely different upbringings.Maharaji DID knowingly separate families-- I know personally of at least two instances where he called fathers away from their families to do service pretty much of a permanent nature (especially on planes) leaving families to somehow cope. This was happening still as recently as the nineties.Itwas seen as a great act of devotion to put M above family. As for relationships-- well,pretty soon after the closure of the ashrams I became involved in a relationship. Looking back, I had completely forgotten how to relate to other people.M was still so much my focus that it was a farce. My partner was a premie but had never been in an ashram and so she didnt have the eight years of ashram conditioning that I had to work through .We are still together 16 years and a few separations later,but it wasnt until we both finally let go of M in 1988 that our relationship startedto really work.It took me a long time to really rediscover myself.Despite what M used to say ,we were actually very successful at giving ourselves to him --so much so that there wasnt much left that was who we really were. CHR Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 13:59:16 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: chr Subject: Relationships and children Message: You go, chr! Glad your marriage is going better. I hope you continue posting! Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 18:37:28 (EST)
From: Gerry the terrible Email: None To: Helen Subject: Relationships and children Message: Give me a little credit, please! After all the abuse I endured from SHeeP I deserve something! 'how can anyone still follow Maharaji after reading this?' was said by me, not Mike. Thanks. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 22:34:23 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Sorry, Gerry! Message: I'm sorry Gerry. I was reading the threads too fast, trying to get my forum fix before watiching 'Lost in Space' with my daughter. Looks like I'm the one who is lost in space. I apologize!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 23:40:30 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Marolyn's letter (Part 1) Message: Here's Marolyn's letter as per Helen's request [Note: the following was transcibed from a handwritten letter. Original punctuation, spelling and syntax was retained. The name of the person who received the letter was replaced by ___________. Some personal references were omitted - this is noted within the text.] Saturday, Dec. 6 [1995?] Dear ______, When I first opened your letter and I saw your name I felt a dual response in me. I felt happy it was from you and at the same time a slight feeling of fear that you were here in town and I would not and could not handle the drama, situation, circumstances surrounding you in your life. I have had brain surgery and I am recovering. I can not handle much stress - when I see it coming, I back off. It is most challenging, it is a daily process, and I am learning so very much about myself in this process. First of all, dear ______, I too have such sweet feelings for you. [several personal messages omitted here] I receive many, many reports, requests, etc. from people. I would go crazy trying to fix, advise or become involved and part of the myriad of changing situations in their lives. The couple of times that you have written to me, I did not respond in a written letter - but I sent you my best thoughts, my best wishes, hoping everything would go well for you, [omit personal message]. May I please express to you an apology for the 'rude' response you received when you called last December. I have no idea who answered the telephone. But I must tell you that no one absolutely no one was put through to me via the telephone or any other way. Not my parents - (mom, dad) - my sister - my brothers, any of my relations or my friends. In December, I was still in a crisis stage of my recovery. Here it is December again and I am not out of the woods. I am still in recovery and my neuro surgeon reminds me to be patient as it will probably take three full years or longer. I had a ruptured aneurysm, (in my brain), three times I was at deaths door. It changed my life. I may not understand why it happened but I do know how precious my breath is to me! I know I don't have time to waste, and spend frivoulessly [sic] on what is worthless to me in this life. Yes, problems, troubles, still come my way, but I try like hell to circumvent them. Sometimes I see that they are like big clouds or thunderstorms and I am a little pilot in a little airplane and I cannot afford to enter - or even (at this point in my life) get near them. _________, when you talked (wrote) about being vulnerable - ________, I must tell you after this incredible drama of nearly bleeding to death inside my brain, and the torturous drama of brain surgery, the impact it had on me and my sweet family, it left me more vulnerable than I can tell you. There were more complications with the surgery and my nervous system was shot. For months I felt I lived on the verge of a nervous breakdown. I feel the weakest of the weak. And yet the miracle the majesty of my breath still resides in me. I am humbled and sincerely grateful. I find myself crying every day - my heart astounded I am still here. What I'm writing to you, _________, is personal - it is for you only. I hope you understand. After I read your letter, I felt so sad. I've always been hoping that everything was going good for you. I don't know about 'we create our own problems' Certainly for many people, most of us, we do have a lot to do with the problems that surround us. But sometimes it seems like they just get dumped in our lap. I have never felt so helpless, powerless and sensitive and vulnerable at the same time. And for some reason it seems like more 'problems' and 'troubles' came my way during the most critical time of my life. I see that 'yes, I am attached.' And I feel the feelings that go with my attachment even if it is just a thought, a concept, a desire, or my imagination at work. When I was in the hospital for a month after the emergency surgery I did not feel much attachment. I felt free of so many of the things I normally feel attached to. Before the operation I understand that my moment here is breath by breath and I was only a breath away from death. And if I was to go - if it was my time to go, it's ok. It was just fine. So free. Trusting and feeling taken care of beyond this physical world and all the detail, the ever changing details of my daily life. Everything became very simple. And now - I must remember the simplicity. There is an ocean of trouble - problems. I don't want to swim in it. My living Master showed me and reminds me thru His Perfect Knowledge how to go inside - how to turn my attention inside. It is my Safe Harbor. It is Real - as everything around me changes (good/bad) Whatever! What he gave me - the way to go inside and the experience it brings me, is Constant - it does not change. My breath - my best friend - still fills me with Life and delight. You know when you got on the subject of premies, etc. Remember this - a premie is a lover - a lover of love - a lover of Knowledge - a lover of the living Master. Just because a person has received the techniques of Knowledge doesn't mean that they are manifesting as a true lover/premie. This thing called Mind is outrageous. The Heart cries for attention, the mind will abandon. Maharaji spends his life/time reminding those who truly want to hear about the heart. 'Premies' (i.e. those who have received the techniques) are often the cruelest offenders - abandoning - rejecting the Heart's cry (desire) - and that is not a PREMIE - a LOVER. And yet the Master does not shut the door on anyone. __________, I don't know if M set Dr. Horton up in the office with Dr. Edel. Most likely he wanted a good facility for those he cares about. And Dr. Horton put himself in place. However, _________, this is confidential again, M is very displeased with John for reasons that I know, and also, for reasons that I don't know. I am also very mad (upset) with John for an incident that I cant go into detail right now. So when you expressed your feelings of hurt and frustration I could read you loud and clear. But I also know that these feelings that come to me are not my Reality. I know what is Real. I love what is Real. To me John is in the sea of problems and I don't want to engage myself there. Well, _________, I hope you can make sense of what I am trying to say. (My penmanship leaves a lot to be desired.) I had a mini stroke in the hospital so my right side of my body was affected - but I am soo lucky, so fortunate, so very blessed. At first it was a little hard for me to talk straight. Maharaji, my dearest husband and love was very protective of? (for?) me. So please don't feel singled out because you didn't get thru when you called My sister had a hard time with that one, too (but I was so grateful because I really couldn't handle or cope with even simple social interactions.) I am much better, but I know I still have a ways to go. I take it one day at a time. And it helps me - really it makes the difference - when I begin (start) my day remembering my Priority. Otherwise in this most fragile state - I feel like the external 'world' can gobble me up and spit me out. (May I mention - I ask if you ever want to write to me please feel free to do so - but I beg you to be gentle. I feel like a newborn baby. Your letter has affected me deeply and I feel upset but I can only only pray to once again [illegible word] enjoy the Joy within.) I know I don't want that in my life. Maharaji has shown me that my Heart has a sweet song that it wants to sing. And I need to let that happen. I need to allow my heart to fulfill itself. The ocean of troubles, problems, issues, distraction is there; it's always there, that is it's nature. But for me, practicing Knowledge, listening to my living Master, serving my Master lifts me from the illusion and I can see that although it appears real - it is not real. What is Within is Real - and means everything to me. My attention to what is TRUE really does bring me bliss. It is this I trust. People who practice and are having a beautiful of experience OF KNOWLEDGE AND MASTER AND HEART (real premies) are inspiring to me and fun to be with. I enjoy the gift of their love, their love for live, for my Beloved Maharaji. [Illegible] means so much to me. I get distracted easily - and when I see devotion, when I see knowledge at work in others I feel inspired, and grateful. And when I see people with knowledge spacing out it is VERY botherson - most of the time it drives me crazy SAD - I don't know what to do. Talk to them? - have someone talk to them? - ignore it? - hoping they will wake up. But then -I know I have such little time here. As generous as my Creator is, I don't have long enough on this earth to let my Heart sing the glory and praises it longs to Sing. I have today - Now is my time. I pray that I will spend my time, spend my life (most valuable commodity) where it counts. Pay attention to what is worthwhile to me in this short and generous lifetime that I have been given. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 23:41:29 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: Marolyn's letter (Part II) Message: So, __________, when I told you in the car ride [personal detail omitted] that I would help you if I could, I really don't know what I can do. But I will always wish you well - always hope you enjoy the most precious gift of life. Hard blows come and go - I try to stay clear. I try to avoid anything - person, place or thing that may (potentially) grab me and suck me into a space that I do not want to be. My clarity, my focus, my attention, my consciousness, needs to be, must be directed inside. My attachment must be on my Master, His Knowledge, my Heart. __________, it is not Maharaji's world of (nasty power) 'premies'. M's world is within. If people who have knowledge are unconscious, how do you think it makes Him feel. I have seen it on His face. It breaks His Heart - He trusted - He trusts us implicitly. If we choose to be unconscious - we abandon Him - we abandon Knowledge - we abandon our own Heart. The power or 'politics' that people chose over Knowledge is sad - unbelievable! But my beloved Maharaji does not give up - He does not abandon. He has not abandoned me! Sometimes, I feel anger and frustration and start to point the finger at someone, and blame them for my stress - but then I ask myself - is this where I want to be? Is this what I want to feel? No! No. Maybe I can't change what happened, or change that person's attitude, or be [illegible] but my Maharaji has shown me what means EVERYTHING to me, in spite of or despite of everything else in this world. __________, I appreciate that you felt you could express your feelings to me. I don't know what I can do. All I can say is .... Hang on. You have what it takes. I wish there was more I could do. I send you my love and very best wishes. JAI! SAT CHIT ANAND MLR P.S. I didn't intend to go on for so long and I'm sorry about my handwriting and spelling. But, _________, I care for you. You are so beautiful - never lose sight of that. And dearest, remember the Grace you have, the Gift of all Gifts. Please do not lose sight of your True Blessings, your real Blessing. May I please request that what I have shared is with you is for you alone? Thank you. *One last thing before I end this. I have learned that I cannot judge Maharaji by the people who have received Knowledge and do not practice. Knowledge works! If we don't practice, in my view, we are the biggest fools, the biggest idiots on earth. I want to get graphic and say the biggest assholes alive! I'm sure that you know this. This time has been most trying for me. I find it hard to concentrate. The medication (anti seziure) I take is hard on me. And yet I never ask why did this happen? - By His Grace I am able to listen to videos of the Events and His travels all over the world to reach the thirsty. _______, I need to hear what my heart wants - yearns to hear. I need the direction. The little effort that I make pays off big time. Sometimes I feel dashed on the rocks and then I have nothing but trust; and most mercifully - most compassionately I am embraced Within. When I see Knowledge blossoming, blooming in the hearts of His Premies - I rejoice with tears in my eyes and a heart of gratitude and I witness His Magic in my life. ________, do whatever you need to experience that Magic. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 00:02:42 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Jim Subject: Marolyn's letter (Part II) Message: That letter was very upsetting for me to read. You may laugh at this Jim, I don''t care, but she sounds very sincere and humble. I cannot imagine what her life is like. Thanks for posting the letter Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 02:41:53 (EST)
From: TD Email: None To: Helen Subject: Marolyn's letter (Part II) Message: I also found that strange to read - a bit unsettling. Unsettling because despite the fact that it's Marolyn (who has played a big part in M's continued fraud and corruption) it is still a personal letter of hers so I do feel like a bit of a voyeur, but after that initial reaction, I also felt unsettled because to me it speaks volumes about her and where she's at. I remember once my ex-partner telling me how when MJ got married, all these premie babes got really upset and jealous of Marolyn because they all thought it should have been them to get hitched to the LOTU, and I, as a premie-lite, couldn't entirely relate. I kept thinking how difficult it must be for Marolyn to 1) be a premie and be married to your living God and 2) carry on like a 'wife' and 'mother' with him. Reading her letter, I actually feel pity for her, because she sounds like she is a walking advertisement for co-dependents anonymous. Her style of premie-speak is particularly irksome and I dare say, could be a turn off to any aspirants. Was she that bad when she used to give satsang herself? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 13:44:09 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Helen and TD Subject: Helen and TD Message: Dear Helen and TD, Please see my other post in this thread, but many other people felt the same way you did when you read the letter. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 14:27:58 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Katie Subject: Helen and TD Message: You know, I was on the committee and didn't think it should be a permanent part of the site, though Jim or anyone else had a right to post it, certainly. I didn't think it was the place of the site to gain revenge for this person who wouldn't tell the whole story or name herself. (Yeah, I have no room to talk, but I haven't asked anyone to post something so I can get revenge on anyone...) I think if the person came on here and told the complete story it would do more to hurt Maharji's organization than posting that letter does. That's my opinion only, however. This is a cult and people are full of fear, relationships they are stuck in, etc. I understand why this person does not want to come forward. There may even be sensitive matters pertaining to her family. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 16:26:10 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Katie Subject: Helen and TD Message: Thanks Katie, you're a peach Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 01:17:30 (EST)
From: ZUMA TRIBE Email: None To: Katie Subject: Helen and TD Message: how fortunate we are to hear the song of love,ofgratitude' how foolish you are to invade the privacy of another then sit in judgement behind your fear why some people are still breathing i do not know cyberspace is cold you must be so lonely ZUMA Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 23:59:40 (EST)
From: gerry Email: None To: ZUMA TRIBE Subject: you guys Message: Hey Zuma Tribe, I've got this crazy idea, that since Zuma beach is sooooo close to Malibu you might just have some connection to the little guy in the big house. Like, real close... So let me risk ridicule and proceed based on these assumptions, OK? First off, this really has nothing to do with you, and you guys are in no way responsible for the past, before you were born. And you no doubt love your dad big time. That's good. But, (you knew there would be a but, right?) things weren't (and aren't ) so good for the followers of you know who. It was (is) sorta like being in prison. I bet you know the feeling. I really don't know where I'm going with this, other than at some point, I think you will understand. It's not really cold in cyberspace, I've felt some incredible feelings of connection with some fine and very sincere people here. I'm no expert and neither is your dad, about the meaning of our short existence here. I do know one thing, we are not here to exploit one another. That makes sense right? It might seem to you that your dad is doing this great service to mankind promoting ''Knowledge.'' But you guys must have tried it. It's no big deal and certainly nothing upon which to base your life. Your dad was sorta born into this tradition. While it might not have started out as a deliberate hoax, we know too much about science and psychology to think it's real. I don't know what else to say. I wish you well in your lives. It can't be easy for you, inspite of all the material benefits. Chins up and it's no reflection on you guys. You are free to live your lives as you see fit. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 00:45:30 (EST)
From: SHP Email: None To: Jim Subject: Marolyn's letter (Part II) Message: >May I please request that what I have shared is with you is for you alone? Thank you. Maharaji or no Maharaji, Knowledge or no Knowledge, posting that letter was cold, man. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 01:33:33 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: SHP Subject: Helen & SHP Message: Believe me, we had a full, full discussion about this when I first posted the letter. A lot of contrary opinions about the ethics of posting the letter and about Marolyn herself. I think, however, there was something of a consensus on a few points. Not unanimity but some strong majority views. Most people, I think it's fair to say, decided that, as the one-time 'incarnation of the goddess Durga', as a gilded prime beneficiary of the cult's devotion of her husband as GOD, indeed as a major proponent of mindless, full-tilt excessive fanaticism (hey, read the letter!), she deserved it. Hey, this site exists largely because of her husband's policy of stonewalling his former followers. His privacy rights, in the circumstances, are zilch and hers go down the tubes with them just for the ride. Face it, she's as big a hypocrite as he is. Next time you talk with her ask her about some of her own affairs and ask her if she was fucking around on OUR Lord even while helping to maintain the artifice (read 'cash flow') filling Maharaji's coffers. Her aneurism was tragic. No one's laughing at that. The letter was posted for a few reasons. One, to show how blindered the Lord's wife must stay in order to keep up her pretence. Another, to show how strained that mentality is. Another, to show how much disdain Maharaji's wife has for people who don't squeeze their eyeballs anymore. Another, to fuck Maharjai and his wife up a bit. Another, to fulfill the request of the recipient of the letter who felt extremely burned by her supposed friend, Marolyn, who had just blown her off because she became a 'problem' premie (i.e. one with a few hard questions). Yeah, I feel sorry for her too. I wonder how rich she is. I wonder how much of MY money sits in her personal bank account. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 01:56:56 (EST)
From: SHP Email: None To: Jim Subject: Rat-ionalizing a mugging Message: I was going to say something about how crass you and your con-sensus buddies are, but I just want to stand back as far away from you as I can. You have a real problem, man, and you probably had it before you ever came across Maharaji. Sounds deep. Did it have to do with authority figures? Perhaps a woman who treated you badly? Really, Jim, the ugliness in you has come out like a festering boil. You are the deluded one, man. Gold faucets don't hurt people. You hurt people. You want a calculator to figure it out? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 02:10:22 (EST)
From: Jethro Email: None To: anyone Subject: Rat-ionalizing a mugging Message: SHP says 'Gold faucets don't hurt people' Especially when they are paid for by devoted premies who are living on the dole(welfare) and still send the 10%. Those that use the gold faucet are as guilty as prempal. These people are full of crap. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 07:37:41 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: SHP Subject: Don't change the subject Message: SHP, For argument's sake, I'm one despicable person. Okay? You satisfied? Listen, bud, I'm not running for office here. Mr. Teletubby, on the other hand, claims to be God -- and, as you've already told us, YOU BELIEVE HIM! Listen, publishing Marolyn's letter is nothing compared to my accusing her of fucking around on Maharaji. Get your priorities straight, will ya'? Now why don't you challenge me on that score? Hm? Or maybe you simply know it's true and there's no point discussing it. Is THAT their private business? Like their sex life ain't got nothing to do with me? Go on, tell me. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 10:31:12 (EST)
From: Mr Ex Email: None To: Jim Subject: Jim, please read my comments Message: Hi Jim, did you read my post in this very thread? In case you post this letter again, could you please take my comments into account? and add it to your comment, otherwise the 'letter' is totally out of context! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 13:42:24 (EST)
From: SHP Email: None To: Jim Subject: Don't change the subject Message: Your entire presentation stinks. Have your gadflies on the consensus committee sort out your intellectual terds by size and aroma, all you get from me is a good flush. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 14:46:32 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: SHP Subject: to SHP Message: Please read my post below entitled 'Publishing the Letter' before you jump to conclusions. I'd appreciate it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 07:11:36 (EST)
From: AJW Email: None To: Jim Subject: Sex Lives Message: People's sex lives are their private business. Marilyns' sex life has got nothing to do with you Jim. AJW Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 16:13:02 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: AJW Subject: Sex Lives Message: People's sex lives are their private business. Marilyns' sex life has got nothing to do with you Jim. Yes, AJW, that's the way thing should be. However, I got sucked into giving my sex life up for that asshole for eight years and his wife did all she could to support the pressure. She gave lots of satsang about how precious the ashram was, how important 'that' dedication was, etc. Furthermore, she knew that her own 'divine' marriage was looked to as an example of purity for anyone watching. She didn't just know it, she revelled in the role. So, when she starts fucking around on the side, yeah, I'd say that's my business. End of story. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 26, 1998 at 04:23:05 (EST)
From: AJW Email: None To: Jim Subject: Sex Lives Message: Jim, I also gave lots of satsang about how precious the ashram was,how important dedication was, and you probably did too. And didn't we all revel in the roles of 'mini gurus'. explaining divine wisdom to our captive audiences. Does this mean our sex lives are fair game out here too? AJW Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 26, 1998 at 19:29:24 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: AJW Subject: Good question Message: Jim, I also gave lots of satsang about how precious the ashram was,how important dedication was, and you probably did too. And didn't we all revel in the roles of 'mini gurus'. explaining divine wisdom to our captive audiences. Does this mean our sex lives are fair game out here too? It depends. I'd say that if I ever influenced anyone to join the ashram and they later found out I was fucking around there, they'd have every right to chase me down, in public if they so desired, for an explanation. Yes, this kind of accountability's due right down the line. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 27, 1998 at 09:38:15 (EST)
From: AJW Email: None To: Jim Subject: Good question Message: Jim, There are a couple of things that make me uncomfortable about this topic. Publishing details of someone's sex life seems a cheap shot. The justification you give is tenuous at the least. The main value appears to be titillation. One of the things that turns me off many premies is that they don't seem to give a shit about each other, and their feelings. Does the fact that Marilyn is married to Maharaji make her fair game for any mud anyone wants to sling at her and we can pretend she doesn't have feelings too? Also, if someone has more than one sexual partner, so what? It doesn't mean anything. The fact that we are interested in the matter may indicate more about our own sexual hangups than the subject of our gossip. AJW Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 27, 1998 at 10:02:01 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: AJW Subject: Good question Message: I think to the extent sexual/extra-marital behavior reflects on Maharaji's 'image' it can be an important topic. Maharaji portrayed himself as this perfect god-like creature, at least when I was involved. Knowing about his sexual indiscretions might militate against that image, letting people see that he is just a person, and not a very nice one at that, is a fair topic in my opinion. Certainly, if someone has more than one sexual partner it isn't an issue, per se. But if someone is a 'master' with whom his devotees believe they have a personal relationship, despite then fact that they have never even met him and no nothing about him, that kind of information is important. Also, the fact that M appears to have engaged in sexual relations WITH his devotees, people who already are vulnerable to him by being in his cult, is particularly significant. Yes, I agree that premies lack of caring about each other is important, but I think they just get that from Maharaji who doesn't even care about his devotees, let alone anyone else, apparently to some extent his own wife. Now, when it comes to Marolyn, I'm not so sure. Her sex life might not be that important, especially these days when it appears M has removed her divine status and she doesn't give satsang anymore. I think Marolyn's letter is important because it shows how screwed up and programmed Marolyn is and it kind of makes me feel sorry for her. It also makes me see how destructive M's cult can be, depending on the extent of one's involvement. That also is important. I also think we need more context for the letter. That's why I'm looking forward to the comments of the woman to whom Marolyn sent that letter. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 05:02:27 (EST)
From: Mr Ex Email: None To: Jim Subject: Helen & SHP Message: Another, to fulfill the request of the recipient of the letter who felt extremely burned by her supposed friend, Marolyn, who had just blown her off because she became a 'problem' premie (i.e. one with a few hard questions). Hey Jim, What you call some 'hard questions' was really a serious problem, involving a PAM (the recipient mentions his name in the letter). What you also don't say is that she tried to have m's answer to her 'problem' several time, she even asked him a question publicly, and he never answered honestly. She then tried to get in touch with her on the phone, and never got to speak to her. Marolyn finally replied when she (Marolyn) felt that the recipent might really cause trouble to her beloved lord. When I say a 'serious problem', it is the kind of problem you report to the police when you're not in a cult. She (the recipient) didn't do that (she finally did report it to some authorities), for various reasons: - conflict with her belief (M was her Lord at that time) - the fact that a pam was involved - the fact that her family was involved like it usually is the case for abuses in that type of environment. Now that letter was published on the recipient's request, because she was (and very likely still is) extremely pissed with the Rawats and their attitude. She doesn't want the Rawat to go away with this, the problem is way too serious. And she knows they of course know who she is. She did this anonymously because she doesn't want to associate her name and her family for the moment, but she doesn't fear the Rawat, IMO. She had NO REASON to fulfill Marolyn's request to keep the letter for herself, when SHE (Marolyn) and her husband didn't do what ANY normal caring human being would do in that case. I tell you that their uncaring attitude is what took her OUT of the cult for good. ANYBODY in the same situation would have done the same thing. THEY betrayed her, in the worse way you can imagine. And the letter was in fact a practical proof showing HOW the person who is supposed to care so much for his premies does behave in a difficult situation involving himself: IGNORE the whole thing, and abandon his devotee. This is what that letter is all about!!! Mr Ex, still alive and well. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 09:44:03 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Jim Subject: Helen & SHP Message: After Bob Mishler left the cult, I spoke to him on the phone. He related to me that his time spent around the Happy Couple contained a LOT of Marolyn's tears. Maharaji was his demanding selfish self, and she was a sensitive caring person. That conversation occurred around 1978. I'm always struck by just how little has changed in their lives. Marolyn still cries every day. Fortunately, life will be kind to her and she won't be forced to live out the entire Millennium with her Master. Or have to watch his videos either. How hard it must be to be The Little Woman around The Big Man. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 12:24:30 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Brian, TD, Mr ex Subject: The letter Message: Thank you for your posts. Yes, Brian she does sound like a sensitive caring person. And, TD she does sound very codependent (hey, I happen to think Hilary Clinton is co-dependent too. From my own personal experience of being married to an alcoholic I know from co-dependent!) and Mr. ex, thanks for your clarification. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 13:40:52 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Jim Subject: Publishing the letter Message: Dear Jim - You wrote: Believe me, we had a full, full discussion about this when I first posted the letter. A lot of contrary opinions about the ethics of posting the letter and about Marolyn herself. I think, however, there was something of a consensus on a few points. Not unanimity but some strong majority views. Most people, I think it's fair to say, decided that, as the one-time 'incarnation of the goddess Durga', as a gilded prime beneficiary of the cult's devotion of her husband as GOD, indeed as a major proponent of mindless, full-tilt excessive fanaticism (hey, read the letter!), she deserved it. Hey, this site exists largely because of her husband's policy of stonewalling his former followers. His privacy rights, in the circumstances, are zilch and hers go down the tubes with them just for the ride. I don't agree with a lot of what you say above. When the letter was first sent to the site (it was received by a friend of Mr. Ex's), Brian and I discussed whether to make it a site page or not. We didn't feel capable of making that decision by ourselves, and set up a committee of six people who post regularly on this site (I won't name them, but they can name themselves if they want). This committee unamimously decided not to post the letter, after hearing opposing arguments from Jim and Mr. Ex. We did give the recipient the opportunity of posting it as a Journeys entry which would include the recipient's story and why the letter is relevant. I don't agree that there was a majority opinion that Marolyn has no privacy rights because she's married to M. This is not an anti-Marolyn site. I think many (I'm not sure about 'most' because we did NOT vote on the forum) people here did NOT feel good about the letter being posted on the forum, myself included. In fact, at least one person quit participating the forum permanently because this letter was printed here. I don't think there was a 'majority view' that the letter should have been put on the forum, and I wanted to make that clear. Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 16:37:17 (EST)
From: SHP Email: None To: Katie Subject: Publishing the letter Message: Katie: I saw this already. You and Helen are the most level heads I have run into on this site, disagreements about Maharaji aside. Posting Marolyn's personal, private and heartfelt letter against her requests and putting such a vile spin on her and it was nasty. Just as I am a premie and have to take shit for the actions of unconcscious people who have received Knowledge, so will you have to endure the slings and arrows intended for your outrageous comrades who have left Maharaji. Goes with the territory. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 16:44:13 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: SHP Subject: Publishing the letter Message: I don't agree with you. I have made some friends on site that are premies, and other people on this site have friends that are premies. This is not a war: ex-premie vs. premie. If you have a bone to pick with a particular person on this site, fine, but to put us all in a box and label it is not right, in my opinion. I don't do that to premies, and I wish you wouldn't do it to me. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 16:54:48 (EST)
From: SHP Email: None To: Katie Subject: Publishing the letter Message: I am not quite sure exactly what I said that irritated you, but I am not one to attack in the first place, let alone innocent bystanders. If I said anything to offend you personally while I was setting the record straight with somebody else, I am sorry. Really. One person, one karma. But if you allow yourself to be a passenger in a car with a drunk driver, you might have to split karmic fields with the driver, you know? Some of your website companions who seem to take authority and do things in the name of the site and everyone on it, hiding behind 'consensus' and 'committees' are misrepresenting you. One person, one voice. Then, others can agree on the threads. But that is not how this site seems to operate. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 17:08:04 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: SHP Subject: Publishing the letter Message: SHP - it irritated me when you said I would have to suffer 'the slings and arrows' because of something Jim did, or maybe something Gerry said. I am a person, not Jim or Gerry's accomplice. Just because I am an ex-premie doesn't mean I feel the same way that they do about everything. Ditto for you and the other premies. I publically disagreed with JIm on the matter of the letter, and I don't think that makes me a passenger in his car. Regarding 'consensus' and 'committee'. 'Consensus' was something Jim brought up, and which I disagree with. The committee was something that I brought up. This was a real meeting of six people (plus me, but not Brian), who came to a conclusion NOT to publish the letter. It took a lot of work and e-mail on all the committee members' part, and, at their request, I am not going to reveal who they are unless they want to say so themselves (VP already has). I don't think that information is so important, because Brian runs this site and he has the final say, no matter what the commitee decided. He chose to follow the wishes of the committee. So that DOES bring it down to one person: Brian. I hope this clarifies things a bit. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 17:19:50 (EST)
From: SHP Email: None To: Katie Subject: Publishing the letter Message: Katie: I don't care who was on the committee. I have been aware of many of the apparent contradicitions and paradoxes surrounding Maharaji for years, and have come to my own conclusions via many ways. If you or anyone on the site cares to present to me, point by point, their grievences with him, I will tell you how I dealt with that issue myself as openly as I can. Chances are it won't make any difference to most exers and my answers would be subject to ridicule, but I would be willing to dialog anyway in a peaceful setting. If I became aware of some terrible secret that would seriously make me question Maharaji and the place he occupies in my life, I would take that information into very serious consideration. So far, I have heard no documented news that would make me do that to date. So there are nice premies and nice ex-premies, and there are asshole premies and asshole ex-premies. Interesting treasure hunt. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 17:35:24 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: SHP Subject: Publishing the letter Message: Dear SHP - Others on this site will probably disagree, but I don't care if you question Maharaji or not. If you feel satisfied with your experience of knowledge, and your experience with Maharaji, that is OK with me. I am not out to tell you that you are wrong. The reason I post on this site is to support other ex-premies, and premies who want to leave but are afraid to, for one reason or another. I went through a bad time after leaving M, and I got a lot of mutual support from two other ex-premies. Also, and I've said this many times before, a premie friend of mine committed suicide, and I do this to help people who feel like he may have felt. Basically, my problem with Maharaji and Knowledge was that I didn't experience anything from the Knowledge meditation, despite diligent practice. Also, although I mostly enjoyed being a member of the premie community, but I never felt like I was doing enough meditation, satsang, and service. This made me feel very guilty all the time. I was afraid to leave because I believed that Maharaji was the incarnation of God, and he had made some dire predictions of what would happen to premies who didn't practice Knowledge (rotten vegetables, etc.) I finally decided that I'd rather go crazy than feel so terrible all the time, so I left. My only grievance with Maharaji was that he threatened us with dire consequences should we stop practicing K. I take it that M doesn't do that anymore, so the question is moot. Anyway, that's my story. I really don't need an answer - I just want you to understand why I am here. I do think you'll have a hard time talking to most of the people on this site, honestly. Regards, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 18:08:00 (EST)
From: SHP Email: None To: Katie Subject: Publishing the letter Message: Katie, Your friend who committed suicide - my condolences - might have done it anyway, Maharaji or not. Other things may have set that person off if it wasn't Maharaji. Certain people have a propensity to do it, for whatever reason. I am just saying that the linkage between Maharaji and the suicide may be weak. As for the dire predictions, I can relate from a previous experience. I was in a holy order when I became aware of Maharaji. I had taken life vows. When I said I was leaving, they took me into the room with the picture of Jesus that looked really stern. I went on my own knowing anyway and haven't looked back. You gotta believe that it was a heavy time, and you also gotta believe that I had to be pretty sure inside that Maharaji was real to leave what I left after three years and a pretty good time. I never heard about the 'rotten vegetable' warning, but if it's true, I might be sprouting some greens out of my ears soon if I don't practice more often! Seriously, I can understand your feelings. Can you tell me more about that whole thing? When I was an apsirant Charananand came to the community I was in and spoke at an ashram and then again to householders. At each satsang-Q & A session, he said that each respective path was bliss and the other was a tearful path. I chalked it up to culture, and that he was giving everyone the green light, in his own way, to live their lives any way they wanted to. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 20:25:05 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: SHP Subject: Rotten vegetables Message: Hi SHP - I'm about to leave the forum for a bit, but I wanted to give you the direct quote about rotten vegetables. You'll probably be able to see why I was scared. Maharaji said: But I think the premies who are not meditating, you know what they are doing ? It is, getting three tons of vegetables in their house and not eating it. You know what that means ? When it'll start rotting, phew, it's gotta rot like hell ! And that's the way this Knowledge is. If it was a 'mantra' or something, and you forget it, doesn't matter. But this Knowledge, it's like, you got the vegetables of the whole universe with you. And if you don't meditate, can you imagine how it’s going to rot ? He also said (same reference): If you don't practice this Knowledge, you will get rotten inside. There is so much energy contained in this Knowledge, just imagine how much harm it will be able to do you if you know it, but do not use it properly. Both these quotes are from 'The Sayings of Guru Maharaj Ji, Vol. 3'. Published by Divine United Organisation, Shri Sant Yogashram, Hans Marg, Mehrauli, New Delhi-110030. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 19:37:43 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: SHP Subject: Publishing the letter Message: SHP: I have been aware of many of the apparent contradicitions and paradoxes surrounding Maharaji for years, and have come to my own conclusions via many ways. If you or anyone on the site cares to present to me, point by point, their grievences with him, I will tell you how I dealt with that issue myself as openly as I can. If you will amend the last three words to read 'as is possible' I'll take you up on it. I feel you may have to transcend some of your self-imposed limitations to accomplish this. If I became aware of some terrible secret that would seriously make me question Maharaji and the place he occupies in my life, I would take that information into very serious consideration. Somehow I don't think it's possible to adequately document what has become perfectly obvious to most of us... usually by either first or second hand evidence. I had a friend, for instance, who knew and talked frequently with one of M.'s numerous mistresses... a person who was thoroughly 'fucked up' by the exploitation she underwent. I am not at liberty to divulge the names of either of those people, and my friend clearly does not wish to play a 'Tripp' on her friend. Even between exes and premies friendship still counts for something. Given the numerous breaches of this kind in the Guru's life, however, I can't believe you have never been exposed to the same sources. And I don't believe this evidence would prove credible to you anyway. As you said once, you're in a cult. You are impervious. You win. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 18:24:10 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Katie Subject: You're nobody's accomplice Message: Katie, Is there something wrong with my communication style? I know it's different from yours, and I'm open to criticism. It wasn't me who was throwing around all the scat comments. It was SHeeP, who loves everyone so much. Personally, I find allegiance to the gooro repugnant and the people who exhibit it boring. Give me a fiesty Ex any day. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 18:40:12 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Gerry Subject: You're nobody's accomplice Message: Dear Gerry - I just used you as an example because you really got into it with SHP, even before he got into it with you (a few days ago - 'Fresh Meat', remember?). I did have a problem with that. If you and he want to trade insults, then that's fine, but I don't like it when you seem to attack people just because they are premies. Maybe something he said really set you off and I just didn't see it, but it didn't seem like he was being too antagonistic (then, that is). Just my opinion - as always. Take care, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 18:50:32 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: Katie Subject: You're nobody's accomplice Message: Katie: If I may butt-in, then right back out. Being a retired military guy, I have a rather dry sense of humor at times. The reason I'm saying this is that when I read Gerry's 'fresh meat' comment, I laughed until my cheeks hurt. Despite the rather raucous goings-on here, premies and ex's alike would do well to consider that each has a sense of humor. Sometimes I think we take the words too literally and it sets off an unintended explosion. If I had been a premie and had 'received' the fresh-meat comment, I really would have laughed just as loud and long! In fact, shp said a couple of things (that I think were really supposed to be funny) that made me laugh pretty hard. Like his comment about 'spin-dry brainwashing'.... It was hilarious! It's just my take, for what it's worth! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 18:57:25 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Katie Subject: You're nobody's accomplice Message: you seem to attack people just because they are premies. This is true. No excuses. They make me sick. It's a gut reaction. They seem so smug and self-righteous, even the supposedly 'nice' ones. They have something that other people lack. They are a superior species, with the sacred knowledge. They have superior insight and were able to see that BM is the PM of our time. Yuck, yuck, yuck. I literally have a visceral reaction to this Katie, and it brings out the worst (best?) in me. Sorry if I offend any of the fine ladies and gentlemen of the Forum (Seriously) No apologies to the premie monsters. They are still promoting this garbage and to me that is unforgiveable. I do try to keep a sense of humor in doing this, though. A lot of what I say is for laughs, and if it is at the expense of a premie, well so be it, all the better. They continue to spread their disease and personally I don't like it. I would love to see the whole thing implode. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 20:00:49 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Gerry and Mike Subject: to Gerry and Mike Message: Hi Gerry and Mike - Gerry - even though I don't agree with your attitude about premies in general (not to mention Ronald Reagan in particular), I still like you - most of the time anyway! Plus you have a nice wife and two nice cats. Mike - I have been exposed to the 'military sense of humor', and I think I'd call it 'raunchy' rather than 'dry'. But that's just semantics. I can see how you thought it was funny; hope you can see how it might not appear that way to some people. This has been one of the most emotionally draining days I have ever spent on the forum. I know, I did it of my own free will, and I'm not blaming anyone but myself. I feel like I am swimming against the tide and it's coming in both ways. I am not sure if I belong here or not, honestly. I am going to take a break and go over to CD's Bar and Grill for a while, and have a couple of double Jamesons. Maybe smoke a few cigarettes with Wm. Perhaps Bruce will drop in later for some pleasant repartee. :) We have to be polite over there - it's kind of fun. Don't talk about me behind my back, now. Take care, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 20:23:06 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Katie Subject: Earth shattering news! Message: Gerry - even though I don't agree with your attitude about premies in general (not to mention Ronald Reagan in particular), I still like you - most of the time anyway! Plus you have a nice wife and two nice cats. Katie, RONALD REAGAN IS A PREMIE??!! Wonders never cease! Well, one nice cat and one holy terror who likes to snuggle under the sheets on cold nights! PS you DO belong here, you do, you do! I'm the carpetbagger! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 00:26:50 (EST)
From: SHP Email: None To: Gerry Subject: You're nobody's accomplice Message: Gerry, Firstly, i don't think I am superior to you in any way. Or inferior either. You said: I literally have a visceral reaction to this Katie, and it brings out the worst (best?) in me. Maybe it's the vegetables rotting inside you. (Relax, Katie, this is directed at Gerry, only.) You have it coming for being so rude. Maybe Katie has grace for being so graceful and you have pains because you are being such a pain. This isn't rocket science, ya know? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 19:15:30 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: SHP Subject: 'Publishing?' Message: SHP: Since I was on the committee I have to say that it is my recollection that a consensus was reached that we could not forbid anyone to post anything they wanted on the Forum, though we decided that we did not want to create a permanent page about it. Basically, Jim or anyone can post what they want, and it is assumed that the consequences are their responsibility. The rule is the same for everyone, premies and non. As for the following rather thoughtless statement: Just as I am a premie and have to take shit for the actions of unconcscious people who have received Knowledge, so will you have to endure the slings and arrows intended for your outrageous comrades who have left Maharaji. Goes with the territory. Glad you feel that way. Now, about Parlokanand, Jagdeo, Charanand, et al... Tell me exactly how you would go about taking responsibility for their 'exploits,' shall we say? No one around here claims to be following a perfect leader, or to have received perfect knowledge, so we don't quite have the same problem as you. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 19:18:15 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: You're right, Scott Message: I just used the wrong word. Your recollections are correct. Since we don't censor the forum, we couldn't forbid anyone from posting it on here, or forbid the recipient from posting it as part of a Journey's entry. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 01:08:26 (EST)
From: SHP Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: 'Publishing?' Message: So we are one-on-one now? Fine with me. It seems that every time I posted here to a particular person, others circled and attacked. Is that over? I can handle one-on-ones just fine. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 18:22:19 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Katie Subject: clarification Message: I 'misspoke'. There wasn'rt a consensus that the letter should be posted on the site as an actual site document. Rather, I just went ahead and posted it after it was decided by a committee that was struck for that issue (and perhaps no other?) that it SHOULDN'T be part of the site proper. What happened, though, is that I posted it and one of the lengthier discussions this site has yet been blessed with ensued. My impression was indeed that, at that point, the majority believed as I earlier said. Hey, Mr. Ex I did indeed read your post and thank you much for explaining the background so succinctly. Marolyn, that sweet, self-effacing cry-baby, was a total asshole to her friend and that's why she wanted to post the letter. I just like to help people, you know? Marolyn sounds nice, does she? Can't you see what she's telling her long-time friend? She's telling her to get the fuck out of her life if she's going to bother her with any of her own shit. Marolyn's got an 'experience' to look after. That and shopping. Mr. Ex is right. This woman had some SERIOUS problems and needed some CONCRETE help from her supposed friends, Mr. and Mrs. Hamster. They blew her off. Nicely, you say? Oh, I see. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 01:18:21 (EST)
From: SHP Email: None To: Jim Subject: Jim's gift of interpretation Message: Jim: If you were an interpreter at the United Nations, the nations would have probably gone to war and destroyed the planet based on your read of things. Glib you are, a good reader of vibes you are not. Dangerous combo on any level. I suggest you stay away from fans because if you get close to one when your shit is flying, I don't want to be anywhere close to ya! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 03:42:56 (EST)
From: Mr Ex Email: None To: Jim Subject: clarification: EXACTLY Message: That's exactly the point Jim. I also have to add something. The recipient of the letter hasn't been online, but she will shortly. Having no idea of what the 'journeys' section looks like, she didn't want to write her story without knowing the context where it's going to be published, but SHE DEFINITELY WILL in about a month or 2 I guess. SHP and premies trying to *protect* the Rat-wats (I like that one) might argue endlessly about it, so are the facts, and that very devoted (having done service in the *residence* for years) has been treated this way, and the Rats didn't do a single thing to help her out, beside hoping that she wouldn't show up in the Palace again! That's been an excellent eye-opening for me, I know the 'recipient' quite well, I feel extremely sorry for her, and I'm quite surprised not to see that kind of feeling expressed in ANY of those posts! That's quite interesting. Everybody's speaking about the *poor marolyn* when there is another person who's been badly hurted.....by some PAM who had previously caused problems the rats were already aware of .... quite interesting stuff! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 16:20:15 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Mr Ex Subject: To Mr. Ex - please read Message: Dear Mr. Ex - I can understand why you would be upset that so much sympathy has been shown for Marolyn and none for your friend. I think there are several reasons for this, none of which have to do with what actually happened to your friend. First, we really don't know her side of the story. I know you gave an introduction to the letter, but it is just not the same as hearing someone's personal story. (Also, Jim left it out, and I don't know how many people read your introduction.) I hope you can understand this. Also, some things obviously were left out of the story that only your friend can tell. Also, I think many women on the forum feel sorry for Marolyn because they can relate to her apparent situation. We have heard things about what goes on in her marriage. Plus some of us have been in similar situations, or have friends or relatives in similar situations. Marolyn's illness makes her a sympathetic figure as well. Finally, who would you say is most to blame for your friend's problems - Marolyn or Maharaji? Since I don't know your friend's whole story, it's really hard for me to tell, but in the letter, Marolyn sounds like she does what Maharaji tells her to do. Maybe you know differently, but that is how it appears from a reading of the letter. I know your friend must have a very good reason for making this letter public - it probably was hard for her - and I look forward to hearing her part of the story. I am sorry if we appeared to be unsympathetic to her. I hope you can understand this. Respectfully, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 26, 1998 at 05:11:53 (EST)
From: Mr Ex Email: None To: Katie Subject: To Mr. Ex - please read Message: Hi Katie! First, we really don't know her side of the story. I know you gave an introduction to the letter, but it is just not the same as hearing someone's personal story. The introduction I gave was with her own accord. She will definitely write her journey, but she won't give more details about what motivated her complain to the Rats. She has a family, her children might be online and read this forum, and everybody can understand that there are some stories you don't want to publicly expose. Enough people already know (including the Rats) what happened to her. Be a little patient, she WILL be online, and very likely tell a lot of juicy stories. She has been there, where most of them happen! I'm sure some pams might already be very upset with this - they know her well, I'm sorry guys, you're associated with too much abuse. Also, I think many women on the forum feel sorry for Marolyn because they can relate to her apparent situation. We have heard things about what goes on in her marriage. Plus some of us have been in similar situations, or have friends or relatives in similar situations. Marolyn's illness makes her a sympathetic figure as well. Definitely. My feeling is that SHE (Marolyn) plays a lot with this, her letter is very well articulated, and reflects her own feeling for her friend very well: go to hell with your problem, don't bother us, and keep it for you! What a loving and caring attitude. Durga Ji's answer to her friend! Everybody knows what kind of answer a decent friend would give. And not that pure BS. Finally, who would you say is most to blame for your friend's problems - Marolyn or Maharaji? Since I don't know your friend's whole story, it's really hard for me to tell, but in the letter, Marolyn sounds like she does what Maharaji tells her to do. Maybe you know differently, but that is how it appears from a reading of the letter. Of course she does what m tells her to do! You can also see the expression of some conflict in the letter. She feels (she expresses) a bit sorry, but then she immediately tells her friend to go to hell. I guess I'll give her your email when she'll be online. Now from what I understand, there might very likely be quite some other exes who very likely read these forum's posts, who went through the same kind hardships, and who are also in that same kind of situation where you can't go public because of your family, some premies friends, some members of your family still premies etc. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 13:05:56 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: Jim Subject: Marolyn's letter Message: Jim: You know, I'm amazed by the fact that the overall 'tone' of this letter hasn't been analysed (maybe it was the last time it was posted). Nevermind the ex's are a**holes stuff. How about the 'run away from your problems' stuff! Nowhere does she say to deal with it, nowhere does she say 'let me help,' EVERYWHERE she says that she just 'avoids' stressful situations and people. WOW, how humanitarian... I find her point of view to be particularly disturbing, especially if it's 'genuine' and 'heart felt.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 13:15:07 (EST)
From: Orlando Email: None To: Mike Subject: a disclaimer, maybe? Message: it has been demonstrated clearly on this site that some people really enjoy 'making up' stories (they call these pranks...). they are very talented writers... Jim & all bragg about it too! as far as anybody knows, 'Marylin's letter' could be another one of these pranks...unfortunately, there is not much credibility here ... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 19:01:26 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Orlando Subject: It's real, alright Message: A couple of us have copies of it and Katie actually transcribed it for us, didn't you Katie? Plus, I've spoken to the 'friend' who received it. I've got no doubt. Well, I mean about that. Well, you know what I mean. As for the tricks on ELK, please note Orlando (and any other premie who cares), Nigel, Joe, TD or I never once lied to anyone here about it. That would be a new frontier I'm not willing to cross, personally. I'm kind of proud of my credibility here and I'm not about to spoil it so unnecessarily. My name's Jim Heller and I live at 547 Herald Street, Victoria, B.C., Canada. You can call me at (250)360-1040 and email me at heller@bc1.com. |I'm on the line, so to speak. Every last insult, every last joke, every accusation I make. They're coming from me and I know it. Who are you, by the way? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 19:22:35 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Jim Subject: It's real, alright Message: Yes, Jim, I did transcribe the letter from handwritten form, at the request of Mr Ex, and so that so Brian could read it (his ISP has a limit on incoming transmissons). By the end of the transciption process, which wasn't easy, I was convinced that the letter did not belong on the site, and I communicated my feelings to Brian. (Maybe you should have gotten someone else to transcribe it - then you wouldn't be here now!) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 21:55:07 (EST)
From: Orlando Email: None To: Jim Subject: lying on this site Message: Hey Jim you probably forgot about this other prank this summer: the tale about Katie's meeting with Maharaji....i guess this was not a lie, just a prank, right? too many of those just spoiled the broth Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 21:58:20 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Orlando Subject: discretion and stupidity Message: Hey Jim you probably forgot about this other prank this summer: the tale about Katie's meeting with Maharaji....i guess this was not a lie, just a prank, right? too many of those just spoiled the broth You're kidding, right? That was a joke! I had no part to play in that one but, really, wasn't it obvious? I think one monetarily-blinded by gullibility ex took it half seriously for a bit. Hey, you DO joke in your life, don't you? Holy cow.... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 22:04:46 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: oops! Message: monetarily-blinded should be 'momentarily-blinded' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 22:12:24 (EST)
From: Orlando Email: None To: Jim Subject: i see Message: so...that time, it was a joke, not a prank...sorry (i do recall the witnesses were swearing up and down that it was absolutely true) this does not help the credibility factor, you know... ps: i read your final post about the threat to Gail in the inactive index...it was quite a different story from what she originally said...again....credibility... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 22:38:15 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Orlando Subject: do you? Message: so...that time, it was a joke, not a prank...sorry (i do recall the witnesses were swearing up and down that it was absolutely true) this does not help the credibility factor, you know... It's inconsequential, I think. Really, Orlando buddy, didn't YOU think it was all a joke? Should we go back and find the posts and straighten this one out? Hey, don't you ever joke around about things? Does that mean you're a liar and no one can trust you for nothing? (That's MY problem, of course. I was just wondering if you share it. -- no, see? That was a joke! Go ahead, you try it!) ps: i read your final post about the threat to Gail in the inactive index...it was quite a different story from what she originally said...again....credibility... WHAT?? What the hell you talkin', boy? All that hpapened for me in both my conversation with Madge and the mutual friend is I confirmed Gail's story 1,000,000 per cent. Madge DID tell the friend taht there'd been a meeting in Toronto. She DID say that you guys weren't supposed to come here or fraternize with anyone who does. She DID say that either 'they' or 'she' were going to 'get' Gail or us 'ex's' somehow. (Sorry, I was getting this from the friend who did not have the letter in front of her. Frankly, I can't remember if she forgot that detail or I did. But Gail was right there. Gail? Do you mind? Huh?) The friend DID say she'd hold on to the letter just in case. I DID call Madge back and tell her that this proof existed of her thin but clear threat. And that's about it. Face it, Orlando, this is YOUR cult, bud. You're playing in a cult that's getting into the classic intimidation game. Deal with it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 22:51:40 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Orlando Subject: i see Message: Hi Orlando - Jeez, I'm trying to get off the forum, and I keep getting called back to answer questions... Interesting that you've been reading for that long though. Regarding me meeting Maharaji in Berkeley, it was a joke, thought up by me, and posted and amplified by Rick. It was supposed to be a joke on Bill Burke, who has thought that people posting on the forum under pseudonyms were Maharaji. I would have NEVER said ANYTHING if I thought people might take it seriously - I am still surprised that anyone would think Maharaji would even speak to me, let alone appear in a limo in Berkeley. I apologize again to all who were misled. When I got back from California, I did my very best to defuse the rumours. I have NEVER met Maharaji, except in a darshan line, if that counts. Regarding Marolyn's letter: as far as I know, it is real. I have seen the handwritten copy. Also, as I've said, I don't think Jim should have put it on the forum. As far as I'm concerned, the letter made me more sympathetic to Marolyn than I was before. When I was first told about the letter, I thought it was going to be mocking and dismissive, and that's why I agreed to transcribe it. It is not. I think she obviously believes that Maharaji is the Perfect Master, and she appears to be quite subservient to him. BUT, I don't see what is so damaging to Marolyn in the letter (and I hope Maharaji is listening to this too). She is loyal to her husband, she gives a lot of satsang. She DOES say that ex-premies are assholes, but I have said the same about people who attacked MY husband, so I can't criticize her there. She doesn't give a very much help to her friend, but she's on medication and recovering from major surgery. I have to say that I've been in that place too - you have to concentrate on your own recovery first. The letter made me feel sorry for her, and I don't mean that in a bad way. Hope this explains a few things, Katie P.S. I still think you owe Gail an apology - fair? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 03:16:54 (EST)
From: hamzen Email: None To: Katie Subject: i see Message: Katieo, please don't apologize for slimebag/limo prank, that was so wonderful it was nigh on perfect. It's brought it all back. Some people just don't know how to play. You should be proud of it, not apologize. IMHO. I also seem to remember the unanimous response ringing across the site. An apology to Gail from Orlando, dream on Katie! :) ham Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 16:45:44 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: hamzen Subject: i see Message: Thanks for the endorsement, Hamzen. I thought it was really funny, too (thanks to Mr. Rick Weinir and Rev. Mickey, again). You can imagine my surprise upon returning from California and finding that thread - sheesh! We laughed so hard. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 16:59:28 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Orlando Subject: lying on this site Message: Get real, man! That was a very clever, not to mention hilarious joke. Did you get duped by it or something? I can't believe you are basing the credibility of the site on a JOKE. Really, your attempts to discredit this site are transparent and LAME. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 27, 1998 at 11:29:27 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: VP Subject: No sense of humor... Message: VP: It's silly to argue about 'jokes' with people that don't have a sense of humor or rational thinking process. You need both to understand a good joke. Lokk at their site.... seen ANY good jokes or humor over there? I rest my case... ;-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 27, 1998 at 22:26:06 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Mike Subject: No sense of humor... Message: You are so right. No sense of humor and no answers either. SHP never answered my questions to him, nor did op answer questions to her. What a waste of time. Maybe Robyn has the right idea not reading premie posts. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 13:49:52 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Mike/Helen Subject: Marolyn's letter Message: She sounds like a really sweet gal and I'm very sorry that she has gone through what she has. (Her illness and her life with Maharaji) She doesn't know anything about how to be a real friend apparently. Maybe she CAN'T be a real friend because of the bonds of the SLAVERY of her life with the ex-Lord.(snicker, SHP) Her friend came to her in a time of need, and she offered nothing. Could she? Maharaji and wife may know how to put on a show about enjoying life, but they don't know anything about real intimacy do they? I guess when you let go of 'attachments' to be enlightened that includes people you may love or who may love you. I'm so sorry Marolyn has to live her life this way. I'm sorry anyone does. I wish the author would come forward or that someone would tell us exactly what happened. I understand why they don't, but it sure would be more damning to Maharaji if the entire thing was publicised. I believe Mr. Ex and all, but I wonder about the premie lurkers. The only response they can afford is probably the rationalization Orlando gives below. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 13:55:38 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: all Subject: Marolyn's letter-also Message: I think that the idea for the letter's recipient to write a Journey entry is great (or to write exactly what happened with a PAM that was illegal on this forum). I don't say that to hurt Marolyn, whom I have nothing against. The full story behind this letter would help to expose Maharaji's organization for what it is. Full of lies, secrecy and lack of empathy for real people. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 22:29:33 (EST)
From: Orlando Email: None To: VP Subject: wrong again Message: Sorry VP... Rationalization is what you are doing to justify publishing the letter... .it is not a rationalization, 'cause i did not read Marylin's letter. When a saw Jim's post, i felt i did not want to go near it. to me, privacy is privacy is privacy; publishing a personal letter without it's author's consent is totally unacceptable. i think this is much worse than 'censoring' posts on the ELK site. shame on you Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 22:44:40 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Orlando Subject: ha ha ha Message: Tell me, Brainiac, assuming for argument's sake that invading Marolyn's privacy is wrong, how is that 'much worse' than censoring posts on ELK? Go on, I'm listening. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 16:22:19 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Jim Subject: To Orlando Message: Shame on me, eh? I guess you missed the post above where I said I was against the letter being a permanent part of the site. I can't control Jim or any other adult. If he has the letter and he wants to post it, I'm not flying to Canada to tie up his arms and legs or unplug his hard drive. I'm not going to call him up and bully him either. Unlike your Master, I have no desire to control other adults. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 13:52:28 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Mike Subject: Marolyn's letter Message: Mike: RE: You know, I'm amazed by the fact that the overall 'tone' of this letter hasn't been analysed (maybe it was the last time it was posted). Nevermind the ex's are a**holes stuff. How about the 'run away from your problems' stuff! Nowhere does she say to deal with it, nowhere does she say 'let me help,' I believe I made the comment last time that she shares this way of coping with other groups. My mother was a CS Practitioner, and I just assumed that's the way most kind, sensitive people act. Eventually it began to piss me off; and now I'm over it... mostly. Of course, I can't maintain a relationship for more than a month or two, go numb whenever I hear the words 'science' and 'health' used in the same sentence, and feel compelled to pull the rug out from under both sides of an argument at the same time, but that's just normal... right? -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 14:01:34 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Marolyn's letter Message: Scott: Actually, I had 'assumed' that this had been analysed, but this was the first time I had seen this letter and it just amazed me how little she cared for the recipients concerns. Evasion and irresponsibility. Now, to be honest, given that Marolyn had been through an incredibly dangerous medical procedure to correct a deadly defect would most certainly sway her away from ANY stress producer, but I've never known 'evasion' to be a stress reducer. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 16:37:28 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Mike Subject: Marolyn's letter/stroke victim Message: I know what you're saying Mike. It's like 'just go inside to that beautiful place' ad nauseum. But even with all that I was still struck by the sincerity of her letter. Off topic, sort of, my husband's and my friend & music partner, Rob, had a serious stroke about 13 years ago. He is more productive, more self-motivated and proactive than anyone I've ever met. He has little short term memory but it doesn't stop him from writing songs, performing, being a therapist, and helping other brain trauma victims. One of his CDs was nominated for a WHammy (the Washington area equivilent of a grammy). His brain was literally super-glued back together during the surgery. He was told he could never drive or work again and he does both! He has to take anti-seizure medication but it doesn't stop him! And he just married a lovely woman. How does he do it??? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 16:24:52 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Christian Science Message: You're as normal as the rest of us Scott. Christian Science is a trip : 'you're not sick, you just need to be healed.' Oy vey, I know sick from sick! (uh-oh that was one of my other personalities sneaking out--Little Yiddish Grandma) As I said, I'm perfectly normal! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 19:47:57 (EST)
From: g's mom Email: None To: Jim Subject: my opinion Message: I still check this place out from time to time but have little to add, usually. Jim, I have to say I think posting this was wrong. As much animosity as I carry toward the Guru I do not feel humiliating this woman in this way is right. I do not care how rich she is or how she benefits from the Guru's ill gotten money, it simply doesn't make it okay to hurt her. And if her sexual betrayal of the Guru is true I would attribute it to the insanity that likely surrounds the bizarre lifestyle they lead. It almost seems as if you were justifying an act that will surely hurt her with ' well, she wasn't such a good premie/wife anyway'. You have to wonder if she pays for it everytime this letter gets published. Is the Guru vengeful? Surely it angers him that his wife made him vulnerable by writing this letter. And surely his anger at her is justfied in her mind as she did make a serious error in judgement by writing this. It probably all ends up as more justification for the 'I am nothing, I don't deserve him, he is so kind just to keep me around' crap that premies, it seems even when they marry the Guru, spout. Ultimately, she screwed up by believing in the creep just like we all did. And if she were ever to get out, she would have to deal with how badly she treated people in the name of devotion, just like many of us did, myself included. And she screwed up by writing this letter that left her vulnerable to this 'posting'. But I just have to state I do not respect posting it. She made herself vulnerable, but it was the choice of the person at the keyboard whether it is worth it to humiliate this woman. I think you were wrong to post it Jim. G's mom, who in the past has taken Jim's side, but cannot on this one. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 21:55:32 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: g's mom Subject: my opinion Message: g-mom, I wish you posted more if only to tell me where I fuck up. Really, I miss you. You know, maybe this is perverse (in fact, it sure SOUNDS perverse), but the more I read posts like yours the more I'm convinced it was the right thing to do. THEY ARE NOT ENTITLED TO COMFORT! That's how I see it. They live in a literal castle high up on the hill and the only thing disturbing their otherwise bucolic vista is the creaking of some very cranky ex-premis' bones in the dungeon... ah, shit, you know what I mean. (I just woke up from a nap. I'm thinking dungeons, and long-time political prisoners, the 'man in the mask' kind of thing. You with me?) Their smug committment to stonewall us at every turn justifies our (my?) absolute disregard for any privacy or comfort they enjoy. By the way, g-mom, Katie and anyone else siding against putting up the letter, what's your opinion about publicizing news of either Rawat's extra-marital affairs? How about the floor plan to their living quarters? How about any information at all that's nothing but up close, personal and embarrassing? What's the big diff? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 13:28:38 (EST)
From: g's mom Email: None To: Jim Subject: the diff Message: hmmm....need an ethicist for this one. I am not sure what the diff is really. My gut just tells me there is one. Here are my thoughts: the letter was from one person to another, in the letter she asked in no uncertain terms that it be kept confidential, she may have impaired judgement because of her at the time it appears recent brain trauma, she seems so pathetic and vulnerable, and I read it and see brainwashed premiespeak....so I do not feel she has full capacity both because of the brainwashing and the brain surgery. I was fine with the house plans, I think exposing their bizarre marraige is good too. I think exposing what premies really don't want to look at is great generally. It just seemed to me the benefits to premies and ex'es of reading this letter did not justify posting it. Obviously the person who really betrayed her confidence was the recipient, who it sounds like had very good reason to be angry, but my gut just says this was wrong. What is great about you Jim, truly, is that I can disagree with you without it becoming personal. A sign of moving beyond cult think if there ever was one. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 16:07:55 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: g's mom Subject: the diff Message: What is great about you Jim, truly, is that I can disagree with you without it becoming personal. Come on, g-mom, is that the ONLY thing you can think of? Christ! No, I hear all you say but stand by my take on it. Remember, there really is nothing the least bit private about the letter (other than some fun scuttlebut about John Horton. I wonder how that's playing out in the Malibu video event scene.) All oyu have is the wife of a cult leader trying to maintain her privacy. But hey, isn't that the same privacy that we're trying to penetrate here? I think so. Ask yourself this: does this bitch think that Maharaji has any obligation to answer anyone for anything? Ever? His whole life long? As for her recovery, well, the fact is she HAS recovered so that concern's moot. Is this an unpleasant burden on her otherwise happy life? Sorry. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 17:58:59 (EST)
From: x Email: None To: Jim Subject: the diff Message: I'm really glad you printed the letter, Jim. I was going to search for it in the archives after it was mentioned a few days ago. I agree that Rawatt forfeits his right to privacy. Marolyn is in on the hustle. Anything goes now, is how I feel, especially since BM wil do anything he can to squeeze max profits from his devotees. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 21:33:22 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: g's mom Subject: to g's mom Message: You have to wonder if she pays for it everytime this letter gets published. Is the Guru vengeful? Surely it angers him that his wife made him vulnerable by writing this letter. And surely his anger at her is justfied in her mind as she did make a serious error in judgement by writing this. I could be wrong, (I don't live in that house), but I think since Marolyn was spouting the party line she probably won't be in any trouble over this one. If she had tried to help her friend or said anything negative about Maharaji, sure he would be mad. All she did was praise him, so why would that make him mad? Am I missing something? How does this letter-without the complete story from the recipient make Maharaji vulnerable? P.S. Off Topic, sort of--At the risk of resurrecting a boring and dead horse, did you think it was right for Kenneth Starr to make Clinton and Lewinsky's private affairs public? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 26, 1998 at 00:19:06 (EST)
From: g's mom Email: None To: VP Subject: to VP Message: I think the Guru would be pissed at the missus for writing it down. If she had a conversation with this friend instead of having written a letter we would not be having this discussion. Writing it down led to an airing of dirty laundry in public. Yes. I think Kenneth Starr was right. I still don't think this falls into the 'private' behavior category. If lets say he was boffing one of Chelsea's friends at Martha's Vinyard, that would be private, disgusting but private. But an intern in the Oval Office using his staff to assist him in hiding the affair....I think he forfeited his right to privacy. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 26, 1998 at 09:53:35 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: g's mom Subject: Politics: Sordid and COnfused Message: I agree w/ you, g's mom (re: the Monica matter). However, the tactics Ken Starr has used in order to prove the 'letter of the law' have been pretty creepy. He really hates Clinton, no doubt about it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 26, 1998 at 23:38:43 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: g's mom Subject: Devil's Advocate Message: I'll bet when Monica Lewinsky had private telephone conversations with Linda Tripp she asked Linda NOT to reveal the content of the calls. But Linda did reveal it..to the entire world. I guess I'm a little confused about why you think that is ok, but you think posting this private letter from Marolyn is so wrong. Marolyn and Clinton are both public figures, aren't they? I am getting the impression that a person high up in Maharji's organization abused the recipient of the Marolyn letter (or a member of her family) in some way. According to Mr. Ex, something illegal happened. This person had some power over a devotee. Do you view this as an abuse of power similar to what Clinton did? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 27, 1998 at 02:37:49 (EST)
From: g's mom Email: None To: VP Subject: wow good point... Message: The Starr v Jim thought! Or recipient v Tripp. I think what Tripp did to Monica stunk. I do not approve of every single thing that has occured in the investigation. But I do not think it is a 'vast right wing conspiracy' either. But truly I think the spin masters have done a masterful job making Starr the focus rather than Clinton. I find it bizarre. I was thinking today. Let's say Marolyn was my friend and I had recieved a letter such as this one in response to a problem I had ( that I do not wish to rehash) with a mahatma. I suppose I would have be now very tempted to allow that letter to be on the net. Because it would illustrate how the Guru hides problems in his organization rather than deals with them. In both examples an embarrassing abuse of power not dealt with by the Guru, both appear to have been things that really should have been reported to the police. I am beginning to see Jim's side and the side of the recipient. Maybe it is the idea if the woman had not been ill she probably would not have written the letter. I don't know anymore....you may be swaying my view here. Must say VP I am impressed that you were able to help me see it in a different light. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 27, 1998 at 08:50:33 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: VP Subject: I agree, good point, Veep (nt) Message: nt Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 27, 1998 at 23:19:09 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: g's mom Subject: wow good point... Message: g's mom, I'm just thinking out loud. I believe that if someone asks you to keep something secret you should. What if someone asks you to keep a secret that you can't because the responsibility is too great? Covering up a murder or protecting a fake Lord, for example. I believe that when you know something is corrupt, you have a responsibility to expose it. Sometimes secrets are the things that allow power abuses and corruption to continue. Perhaps the recipient of the letter was trying to do the right thing by asking someone to post it. I think I am changing my mind, too. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 22:09:36 (EST)
From: SHP Email: None To: Everyone Subject: A Blessing on you Message: Just for a minute... Forget all our banter of These past few days And please hear me now: May the true Almighty God, Creator of All Bless and keep each person on this site May each one here find the love and truth they seek Wherever each one may find it. May the pain and hurt of past experiences Be washed away by Your Everloving Grace And be replaced by the joy and peace That passes understanding. Amen I love you. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 22:19:49 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: SHP Subject: A Blessing on YOU Message: Just for a minute... Forget all our banter of These past few days And please hear me now: May the true Almighty God, Creator of All Bless and keep each person on this site May each one here find the love and truth they seek Wherever each one may find it. For once and for all .. Drop your defenses That you've carried so long And listen to yourself for a change May you finally follow the thread of reason Past behind the facade, the tradition, fear and superstition May you finally find the truth Behind the pretense of love May the pain and hurt of past experiences Be washed away by Your Everloving Grace And be replaced by the joy and peace That passes understanding. May you finally learn from your own experiences And those of others May you finally understand All that your wonderful brain can hope to know And shake off the taboos of supertitious cultures that worship mystery for its own sake Amen |
Date: Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 19:00:00 (EST)
From: SHP Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Slavery went out a while back Message: I hear some of the exers using the term 'slave' alot. C'mon, this is America in the 20th century and we all have free will. If you or someone you know gave of him/herself in service to Maharaji or worked for low wages, hey! Are we all adults here? Take responsibility, at least, for your own actions, and quit yer whinin'! Here's a tip: Whatever work you did and dedicated in service to God, even if it went sideways in your opinion - LET GO OF IT - it will come back to you in spades once you have finally pried your fingers off the energy. As you sow, so shall you reap, and God looks upon the heart, the motive. One man/woman, one karma. You all have this gigantic cosmic rubberband construct in the ethers just waiting to pop back to you - as soon as you let go of your end. Just bless your past efforts even if you think they were wasted, for your own sakes. And get a life! One more thing: Whoever you are angry at controls you still. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 20:15:35 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: SHP Subject: The ethers Message: Is that the same rubber band in the ethers that connects GM & his devotees? Is it out on the astral plane somewhere? SHP, all of us know that cliche about 'what goes around comes around', we know about 'healing ' and 'letting go' and all that other psych 101 stuff, dude. We come here for information. Don't you find it interesting to hear these stories about Maharaji's plane project etc? I mean, this is the guy you've surrendered your life to! Don't you want to learn more about him? Oh never mind, I forgot, you learn everything you need to know from meditating. I give up, good night Love Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 20:25:12 (EST)
From: hamzen Email: None To: SHP Subject: Slavery went out a while back Message: SHP, there are loads of premies out there who have lost their identity, constantly interpret what slimeball means, are scared of blowing it with god, are scared they will turn into vegetable minds if they walk away, etc etc IF we were all adults here..... If you don't know any of them you are very lucky indeed. But then maybe that isn't a positive route, no rewards so not worth putting in the effort to deal with that. Have you never accepted righteous anger as positive? Is there anything you would fight for even if it made you suffer? If you felt someone was brainwashing innocents, wouldn't you make a stand, or is it a case of NOTHING is allowed to interfere with the flow of that sweetness? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 21:52:08 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: SHP Subject: Slavery went out a while back Message: Dear SHP, I won't comment on your karma theory, except to say that I have done some things with good intentions that have been destructive to people. I'm not sure where that fits in. What I did want to comment on is this statement: Whoever you are angry at controls you still. I believe this is true. My mama always used to say 'The opposite of love isn't hate, it's indifference', and I believe it. However, anger is a process. You cannot just say 'I'm not angry' (in fact, my mama always used to go around saying 'I'm not angry' through clenched teeth, too.). People have to work through the anger and that is one of the purposes of this forum. I feel pretty indifferent about Maharaji now. I certainly don't hate him. I get angry at him every once and a while when I read some of the ex-premies' stories on this forum. But most of the time I find him to be quite boring. I just don't care about him any more. But a lot of people on this forum suffered a lot more as Maharaji's devotees than you and I did. You can say that we were 'all adults' (I was 16 when I got knowledge), but most of the people who post here were quite young when they got knowledge. I feel that Maharaji misled people into believing he was the incarnation of god. He also misled the ashram premies into believing that they would go to hell if they left the ashram. I think people who believed these things, and acted accordingly have a right to be angry, regardless of whether it was their own free will or not. I do think that people were intimidated and made to feel guilty, and thus did things they didn't really want to do. I don't think that people should STAY angry for the rest of their lives, or even for a few years - I think they should move on - but they do need to go through the process. Otherwise they WILL stay angry underneath, and they won't heal. It's easy to SAY 'Take responsibility for your own actions' and 'Don't be angry'. It's much harder to do. I don't know if you've ever been though a divorce or a bad break-up, but that, to me, is a lot like what leaving Maharaji is like. There is going to be anger, even though it was your own actions that got you into the marriage or whatever. I hope you can understand this. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 22:53:01 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: SHP Subject: Rubber bands Message: SHP said, You all have this gigantic cosmic rubberband construct in the ethers just waiting to pop back to you - as soon as you let go of your end.' Er, no SHP. If you let go of a rubber band it will fly away from you and hit the other person in the face. Who's angry here? I'm not. Maharaji's angry. He gets angry alot at his devotees and his ex-devotees. I'm not whining. I am doing something to prevent falsehood from being peretrated. You believe Maharaji to be the highest manifestation of God. I used to believe that too, once. Then I found out that I had been misled. If you find out that you've been misled, you'll be very angry for a while and then you'll get over it and do something to prevent other people from being conned. In my life Maharaji is an irrelevance now that I know he's not the Lord who he once pretended to be. I am a thorn in his side and I will satirise and even ridicule him. Some would do much, much worse for what he has done. Some would do much worse to him given half the chance. Why do you think he needs so much security? Why do you think he's cancelling programs? He stepped over the line of what is considered tolerable in the Western world. He has gone too far, further than other Indian gurus who've come to the West. He rather stupidly thought that it would be a good scam to get some sincere people to believe he was God, in order to get rich from the proceeds. Now a lot of people are not very happy about being conned like this; a lot of very sincere people. That rubber band is going to come snapping back into someone's face, and guess whose? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 23:31:30 (EST)
From: hamzen Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Rubber bands Message: 'Who's angry here?' I am - because of the sloppy new age thinking that masquerades as truth as it constantly shifts position. Slimeball is a perfect manifestation of this and he's still around fucking with peoples heads. He's anti-democratic, a control freak and likes lording it over people. He's a perfect example of the kind of bullshit thinking that hides behind feelings, bottles up emotions and then smiles sweetly as he tells you that the only thing that counts is appreciation. It's what he represents that's so odious not specifically him, although he does a pretty good job on that front too. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 10:10:27 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: SHP Subject: Ignorance went out Message: C'mon, this is America in the 20th century and we all have free will. If you or someone you know gave of him/herself in service to Maharaji or worked for low wages, hey! Are we all adults here? Take responsibility, at least, for your own actions, and quit yer whinin'! We are all adults here, yes. I realize that you can not understand that any adults could view life differently from you and still have a valid viewpoint. You are stuck with your views, your beliefs, and your Master to tell you that these people are just whinin'. You're stuck because you don't question any of it. The adults that you find posting here have all shared your views at one time or another to one extent or another. They questioned and grew beyond those views, and now they testify here about what caused them to grow, and they offer support here to those still wrestling with that change. You're in your own world, SHP, so you can safely offer your advice. Nobody here can force you to understand when you are unwilling to consider what you read here as being valid - any more than they can force you to adopt a viewpoint that there are adults in the world that are not posting here from America. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 12:01:32 (EST)
From: Sir D Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Brian Subject: Ignorance went out Message: It seems to be a problem with some Americans that they fail to realise that the internet is international. Such people also fail to realise that most of the world is outside of America. Just wait until China gets online. All those millions of students writing perfect English. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 24, 1998 at 14:05:53 (EST)
From: SHP Email: None To: Sir D Subject: Ignorance went out Message: OK, not just America, but the whole world is full of slave-personalities who bitch and moan. You happy now? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |