Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 31

From: Dec 2, 1998

To: Dec 14, 1998

Page: 4 Of: 5



shp -:- meanwhile, back on earth... -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 01:49:58 (EST)
__srb -:- meanwhile, back on earth... -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 08:50:21 (EST)
__Jerry -:- meanwhile, back on earth... -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 10:14:43 (EST)
____shp -:- meanwhile, back on earth... -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 13:44:42 (EST)
______Katie -:- meanwhile, back on earth... -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 13:50:29 (EST)
______Mike -:- Good on ya, shp -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 13:57:16 (EST)
______gerry -:- meanwhile, back on earth... -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 15:10:26 (EST)
______Jerry -:- meanwhile, back on earth... -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 15:54:22 (EST)
________shp -:- meanwhile, back on earth... -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 19:49:35 (EST)
__________Jim -:- Thanks, shp!! -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 20:19:31 (EST)
____________shp -:- Thanks, shp!! -:- Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 09:49:52 (EST)
______________shp -:- Thanks, shp!! -:- Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 09:55:55 (EST)
______________Jim -:- Thanks, shp!! -:- Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 12:10:08 (EST)
________________shp -:- no defense for others -:- Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 12:36:17 (EST)
______________Jerry -:- Thanks for what? -:- Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 15:20:54 (EST)
________________shp -:- just a moment.... -:- Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 23:38:47 (EST)
__________________Jim -:- Read The Blind Watchmaker -:- Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 23:59:27 (EST)
____________________shp -:- you ain't my english prof -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 00:33:32 (EST)
______________________Jim -:- fair enough -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 00:55:12 (EST)
________________________shp -:- fair enough...cool -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 01:12:17 (EST)
__________________Jerry -:- just a moment.... -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 02:33:56 (EST)
____________________shp -:- ah buleeeeeeve! -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 09:16:01 (EST)
______________________Jerry -:- I'm cool. -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 11:47:15 (EST)
________________________shp -:- I'm cool. -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 12:09:17 (EST)
__________________________hamzen -:- the moment. -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 12:26:37 (EST)
____________________________shp -:- uhhhhh, ok -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 15:04:30 (EST)
______________Selene -:- Thanks, shp!! -:- Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 18:27:41 (EST)
________________Katie -:- St. Stephen -:- Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 18:50:05 (EST)
__________________Bobby -:- Steve Gaskin ...... -:- Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 20:55:04 (EST)
____________________Helen -:- Steve Gaskin ...... -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 19:03:18 (EST)
______________________shp -:- her name is ina may -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 23:22:47 (EST)
________________________Helen -:- her name is ina may -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 09:05:32 (EST)
__________________________shp -:- hi helen -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 09:27:18 (EST)
____________________________Helen -:- hi helen -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 18:07:11 (EST)
______________________________shp -:- midwife website -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 23:34:03 (EST)
________________Jim -:- Thanks, shp!! -:- Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 19:56:55 (EST)
__________________shp -:- Thanks, shp!! -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 00:21:48 (EST)
____________________Jim -:- Thanks, shp!! -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 00:58:18 (EST)
__________________Selene -:- Thanks, shp!! -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 19:15:06 (EST)
____________________shp -:- hello there selene -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 23:34:41 (EST)
______________________Scott T. -:- cannabils cannabils cannabils -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 11:07:28 (EST)
________________________shp -:- facts -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 12:37:29 (EST)
__________________________Scott T. -:- facts^3=hyperbole -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 16:30:33 (EST)
____________________________Mike -:- facts^3=hyperbole -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 16:44:51 (EST)
____________________________shp -:- facts^3=hyperbole -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 23:48:03 (EST)
__________________________Mike -:- Huh? -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 16:36:41 (EST)
____________________________Scott T. -:- Huh? -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 17:15:27 (EST)
______________________________Mike -:- That's GREAT! -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 17:54:56 (EST)
________________________________Scott T. -:- That's GREAT! -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 18:44:21 (EST)
________________________________shp -:- hemp house not silly at all -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 00:24:09 (EST)
____________________________shp -:- Huh? -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 00:04:34 (EST)
______________________________Mike -:- Good post, shp -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 10:09:47 (EST)
______________________Selene -:- hello there selene -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 12:57:02 (EST)
________________________shp -:- hello there selene -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 00:36:46 (EST)
________________shp -:- Thanks, shp!! -:- Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 23:41:42 (EST)
__________________Bobby -:- shp.... do you know....... -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 10:27:01 (EST)
____________________SHP -:- shp.... do you know....... -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 12:10:35 (EST)
______________________op -:- shp.... do you know....... -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 23:14:15 (EST)
________________________shp -:- shp.... do you know....... -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 23:36:01 (EST)
____________shp -:- button button -:- Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 12:16:30 (EST)
__Katie -:- meanwhile, back on earth... -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 12:25:56 (EST)
____shp -:- meanwhile, back on earth... -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 13:52:26 (EST)
____Jane -:- meanwhile, back on earth... -:- Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 20:51:37 (EST)
______Jim -:- Then why'd he say this.. -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 00:05:57 (EST)
________Jethro -:- Then why'd he say this.. -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 05:39:32 (EST)
______Katie -:- meanwhile, back on earth... -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 16:55:53 (EST)
__Scott T. -:- meanwhile, back on earth... -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 14:49:14 (EST)
____shp -:- meanwhile, back on earth... -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 19:56:02 (EST)
______Helen -:- meanwhile, back on earth... -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 20:53:23 (EST)
______Scott T. -:- meanwhile, back on earth... -:- Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 01:22:26 (EST)
________shp -:- lions/tigers/beasts omy -:- Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 10:11:52 (EST)
__________Scott -:- right -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 01:58:23 (EST)
____________shp -:- right -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 09:42:24 (EST)
______________Orlando -:- help needed -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 10:24:50 (EST)
________________shp -:- help needed -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 12:16:09 (EST)
________________hamzen -:- Big help needed -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 12:58:57 (EST)
__________________shp -:- and freedom tastes of reality -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 14:53:39 (EST)
__________________Orlando -:- as a guest -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 16:55:19 (EST)
____________________gerry -:- as a guest -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 17:29:54 (EST)
______________________shp -:- no doubt -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 23:45:38 (EST)
________________gerry -:- help needed -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 16:13:29 (EST)
__________________hamzen -:- help needed -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 19:14:02 (EST)
__________________shp -:- you talkin' to me? -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 23:50:49 (EST)
____________________gerry -:- you talkin' to me? -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 00:15:41 (EST)
______________________shp -:- body language -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 00:23:50 (EST)
__________________Gail -:- Years of Conditioning do fall -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 12:49:01 (EST)
______________Jerry -:- right -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 12:29:29 (EST)
________________Scott T. -:- wrong (sans irony) -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 14:48:00 (EST)
__________________shp -:- scottscottscott -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 15:20:17 (EST)
____________________Jim -:- scottscottscott -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 17:24:53 (EST)
______________________shp -:- jimjimjim -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 00:13:42 (EST)
________________________Jim -:- jimjimjim -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 01:25:20 (EST)
__________________________shp -:- it's simple -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 01:40:25 (EST)
____________________Scott T. -:- scottscottscott -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 19:06:48 (EST)
______________________shp -:- your honor, i gotta pee -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 00:18:44 (EST)
________________________Scott T. -:- you're excused -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 02:19:27 (EST)
__________________Jerry -:- wrong (sans irony) -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 19:58:17 (EST)
____________________Scott T. -:- wrong (sans irony) -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 23:41:37 (EST)
______________________Jerry -:- wrong (sans irony) -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 10:16:54 (EST)
________________________Scott T. -:- wrong (sans irony) -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 11:52:53 (EST)
______________Scott T. -:- verstehen -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 15:12:32 (EST)
________________shp -:- verstehen -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 15:24:46 (EST)
__________________Scott T. -:- verstehen -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 18:47:03 (EST)
____________________shp -:- geshundtheit -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 00:30:36 (EST)
______________________Scott T. -:- geshundtheit -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 02:34:31 (EST)
________________________shp -:- i hate timelines -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 07:36:39 (EST)
__________________________Scott T. -:- i hate timelines -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 12:15:41 (EST)
____________________________shp -:- drool.... -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 12:45:04 (EST)
____________________________Jerry -:- Carnegie -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 16:06:49 (EST)
______________________________Scott T. -:- Carnegie -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 17:30:12 (EST)
________________nigel -:- What do you mean by 'trance'? -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 19:07:48 (EST)
__________________Scott T. -:- What do you mean by 'trance'? -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 19:30:12 (EST)
____________________Nigel -:- What do you mean 'prophetic'? -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 20:01:15 (EST)
______________________Scott T. -:- What do you mean 'prophetic'? -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 23:21:05 (EST)
________________________Mickey the Pharisee -:- What do you mean 'prophetic'? -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 00:48:54 (EST)
__________________________shp -:- authority -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 01:02:22 (EST)
____________________________Mickey the Pharisee -:- authority -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 01:34:20 (EST)
______________________________shp -:- we both want it all -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 01:50:32 (EST)
________________________________Scott T. -:- Mike, you're being paiged -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 12:01:34 (EST)
__________________________________Gnostic Gnome -:- Mike, you're being paiged -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 15:49:52 (EST)
__________________________Scott T. -:- 'prophetic' -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 08:55:48 (EST)
____________________________shp -:- row row row -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 09:33:11 (EST)
______________________________Scott T. -:- pixels pixels pixels -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 10:51:50 (EST)
____________________shp -:- did somebody say drugs? -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 00:38:29 (EST)
__________________gerry -:- oooohhhhh! this is interesting -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 21:23:02 (EST)
______________Mickey the Pharisee -:- right -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 18:17:20 (EST)
________________Scott T. -:- right -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 19:12:04 (EST)
__________________shp -:- it ain't over... -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 00:52:04 (EST)
________________shp -:- right -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 00:46:43 (EST)
__________________Mickey the Pharisee -:- right -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 00:56:07 (EST)
____________________shp -:- right -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 01:07:54 (EST)
______________________shp -:- can we look at this? -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 10:09:45 (EST)
________________________shp -:- to all - just something nice -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 10:22:10 (EST)
________________________Mike -:- can we look at this? -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 15:59:50 (EST)
__________________________shp -:- can we look at this? -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 00:48:19 (EST)
____________________________shp -:- chill, people -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 00:59:58 (EST)
______________________________Katie -:- chill, people -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 12:55:14 (EST)
____________________________Mike -:- can we look at this? -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 10:43:43 (EST)
______________________________shp -:- can we look at this? -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 11:09:35 (EST)
______________________Katie -:- right/apocalyptic thinking -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 15:26:55 (EST)
________________________shp -:- katie, the whole enchilada -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 01:30:22 (EST)
__________________________Katie -:- katie, the whole enchilada -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 11:35:51 (EST)
____________________Mike -:- Absolutely RIGHT! -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 15:55:34 (EST)

Brian -:- Another UK question -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 00:14:47 (EST)
__Jethro -:- Another UK question -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 01:05:06 (EST)
____Barney -:- Another UK question -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 03:11:38 (EST)
______Jethro -:- Another UK question -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 08:33:03 (EST)
____Robyn -:- Another question answered -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 23:33:33 (EST)
__Barbara -:- Another UK question -:- Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 11:31:14 (EST)
____hamzen -:- Another UK question -:- Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 18:48:29 (EST)
____Brian -:- The search for new UK house -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 14:01:05 (EST)

Jane -:- Love -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 23:15:47 (EST)
__Helen -:- Love -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 23:21:24 (EST)
____Jane -:- Love -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 23:36:27 (EST)
______Helen -:- Love -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 23:45:43 (EST)
________Helen -:- meant to say 'waste' (nt) -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 23:47:10 (EST)
__dv -:- feeeeliinngggs! -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 00:21:53 (EST)
__hamzen -:- Love -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 05:33:20 (EST)
__srb -:- perhaps you are overlooking? -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 08:45:15 (EST)
____Sir David -:- perhaps you are overlooking? -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 11:36:35 (EST)
______Mike -:- Right on the money Sir -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 12:06:30 (EST)
________Helen -:- Right on the money Sir -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 15:52:58 (EST)
______Jerry -:- Excellent, Sir D -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 16:18:39 (EST)
__Tarzan -:- Love -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 13:17:32 (EST)
____Jerry -:- LOL -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 16:24:16 (EST)
__Mike -:- Ask yourself.... -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 13:55:30 (EST)
____Scott T. -:- Ask yourself.... -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 15:01:18 (EST)
____Helen -:- He's back! -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 16:26:13 (EST)
__Willi Kranz -:- Love -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 18:52:54 (EST)
____Many beautiful girls -:- Love -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 20:59:16 (EST)
____Katie -:- Love and Robyn -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 22:10:39 (EST)
______Robyn -:- Katie knows Robyn -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 23:44:48 (EST)
____Robyn -:- Love -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 23:28:54 (EST)
______Robyn -:- Love -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 23:46:39 (EST)
______Willi Kranz -:- Love -:- Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 05:31:55 (EST)
________Robyn -:- Love -:- Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 09:51:46 (EST)
________Noriko Sakamoto -:- Love -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 01:58:03 (EST)
__________Robyn -:- Love -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 16:13:46 (EST)
____________Rep. of Lollipop Guild -:- Love -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 17:32:09 (EST)


Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 01:49:58 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: meanwhile, back on earth...
Message:
1) the world's governments and economic barons are plotting to create a cashless society step by step and have us all either carry cards with microchips in them or have them actually implanted in our bodies...if you think i'm exaggerating, i'll be happy to give you some websites to consider. so while we are busy yakking about this and that, there are 'powers and principalities of darkness in high places' that really don't give a shit what is distracting us from our potential fate, as long as we are locked into the game. i have information for anyone who wants it.

2) you know those 3-d pictures you just have to just gaze at to really see what's going on? you just have to let go of your concepts and kind of gaze at the picture, then the reality of the image pops out? that's how i need to gaze out of my eyes now to see what's really going on....it's worked before, it'll work now.

3) a simple prayer:
o lord, if i love you for fear of hell, cast me into it
o lord, if i love you for fear of losing your love, withhold it from me
but o lord, if i love you for your sake and for all you have done for me, then protect and shower me forever with your grace and kindness
amen

4) was/is the man-child lord of the age allowed his pecadillios by the almighty, or is something else going on? there is really no room for gray area here, based on the claims.

i need rest and a clear conscience/consciousness to let myself grow and thrive in the sunlight of my creator...to be the person,
devotee, husband, father, brother, son, friend, etc, that i was created to be. i want answers. they will come. thanks for the space, care and attention to sort this out in front of others who may have gone through the same maze of contradictions that i now find myself...'yea though i walk through the valley of the shadow
of death i shall fear no evil, for thou art with me'...i accept that as reality in my life, especially now.
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 08:50:21 (EST)
From: srb
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: meanwhile, back on earth...
Message:
It's no picnic thats for sure and you are right in that
this forum provides a place for you to stretch out on
your thoughts and have people respond.

Where in the heck can you go where people will
understand you? We do right away where if you
went to a therapist a lot of what you say would
go in one ear and out the other because he was not there.

Having said that, a therapist can help also.
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 10:14:43 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: meanwhile, back on earth...
Message:
i need rest and a clear conscience/consciousness to let myself grow and thrive in the sunlight of my creator...to be the person, devotee, husband, father, brother, son, friend, etc, that i was created to be.

A question, shp. What if you or a loved one were, suddenly, diagnosed with cancer or infected by the HIV virus? What would you think you were created to be then? Would you still love the Lord for all he's done for you? Would you still feel protected and showered by his grace, forever?
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 13:44:42 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: meanwhile, back on earth...
Message:
well, jerry, you are talking to someone who has lost a brother to aids at the age of 37, and my wife lost one of her brothers to aids at age 40, both in 1989. what a year.

you know, i really feel that lenny is in paradise as opposed to hell, if he is anywhere. and if i got aids from caring for him on his deathbed without wearing gloves so that he could feel my brotherly love through my skin and somehow that would save him, then i would still think life was cool. i accepted that a long time ago. i have been throug few of those 'near death things' for lack of a better phrase. i believe the 'disease can be cured and the patient dies anyway...because it wasn't about the body...the body's just a prop...it's our souls that are here doing the evolving...sometimes letting go of your body or surrendering to a fate the world would call tragic may not be tragic at all....sure it would be nice if the world was perfect and we all had perfect bodies and minds and hearts, but alas....

and by the lord, i meant the formless one.
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 13:50:29 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: meanwhile, back on earth...
Message:
dear shp -
Have you read Stephen Levine's books? (I'm pretty sure you probably have). My dad died in 1989 after being in a coma for weeks as a result of a botched operation (he was only 58). 'Who Dies' was really helpful to me and my sister, and I've read most of the other ones since.
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 13:57:16 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Good on ya, shp
Message:
shp: I REALLY mean that.... good on ya! ;-)
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 15:10:26 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: meanwhile, back on earth...
Message:
Patty and I had two good friends who died of aids around the same time. They were both so vibrant and fun. It seemed unreal, like a nightmare or something. Can't imagine how it would be if it were a brother, though. My sympathies, and it seems like you have made your peace with it.
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 15:54:22 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: meanwhile, back on earth...
Message:
I'm very sorry about the loss of your brother and brother-in-law, shp. Thankfully, no such tragedies, and I do think such loss is tragic, has yet happenned to me. I don't know if I could bear to see one of my loved ones suffer so, and I certainly wouldn't want them to see me in that state.

I don't think the body's a prop. I think it's who we are and all we've got, and when we die we live on only in the memories of those who love us. Death to me is the final sleep. You sink into a slumber and that's that, the end. I see no reason to believe anything else.

I also see no reason to believe in the formless one, although until recently, I must confess, I did. I once had a mystical experience in my life which I 'recognized' as being in the presense of God, but I've since reconsidered. I have no doubts about love existing, or mercy, and when every fiber in your being is touched by them, it does feel as if you are touched by infinity, even if only for a few moments. But where such love and mercy really comes from I don't know. I think to say it comes from God is to jump the gun. There's no such evidence that this is so, just an individual's own convictions, which are probably rooted in that person's early religious training. I don't think that's enough.
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 19:49:35 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: meanwhile, back on earth...
Message:
once there were two friends, one believed in god and one did not.
they stood under the full moon, stars, planets and shooting stars one night and the believer exclaimed 'how incredible the creator is!' the non-believer said 'there's no creator..all this stuff in the sky is just a chemical reaction.'

the next day, the non-believer came over to the believers house. the believer had just finished assembling, painting and hanging a large beautiful solar system mobile from the ceiling in the center of the room. the non-beleiver entered the room and exclaimed 'how beautiful that mobile of the solar systems is! who made it?' his host, the believer replied 'no one made it. it's just a chemical reaction.'
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 20:19:31 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Thanks, shp!!
Message:
once there were two friends, one believed in god and one did not.
they stood under the full moon, stars, planets and shooting stars one night and the believer exclaimed 'how incredible the creator is!' the non-believer said 'there's no creator..all this stuff in the sky is just a chemical reaction.'
the next day, the non-believer came over to the believers house. the believer had just finished assembling, painting and hanging a large beautiful solar system mobile from the ceiling in the center of the room. the non-beleiver entered the room and exclaimed 'how beautiful that mobile of the solar systems is! who made it?' his host, the believer replied 'no one made it. it's just a chemical reaction.'


shp,

With one hit of your 'submit' button you have elegantly demonstrated life under the illusion of design. Thanks.
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Date: Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 09:49:52 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Thanks, shp!!
Message:
jim,

we all have our moments.

a good friend of mine and mentor, stephen gaskin, (from the grateful dead song st.stephen, the farm, etc) once said that if a zen master does something dumb then in that here and now moment that zen master is a dummy, and if a moron performs an enlightened action then in that here and now moment that moron is enlightened. i believe that. we don't get adhesive name tags when we reach a point in the unseen realm, it's all moment to moment.
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Date: Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 09:55:55 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: jim
Subject: Thanks, shp!!
Message:
the trick is to string as many enlightened actions/herenowmoments
together as we can without thinking about anything but the moment we are in and doing justice to it. i am into it. folks who have reputations of stringing alot of here now moments together in right action get elevated by others or try to elevate themselves.
then when they screw up a moment here and there, all the people who elevated that person get diappointed...now about the person who elevates him/herself and messes up, that's another story.

like robin williams says 'be here now or get there later' (with a smile and a laugh)
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Date: Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 12:10:08 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Thanks, shp!!
Message:
a good friend of mine and mentor, stephen gaskin, (from the grateful dead song st.stephen, the farm, etc) once said that if a zen master does something dumb then in that here and now moment that zen master is a dummy, and if a moron performs an enlightened action then in that here and now moment that moron is enlightened. i believe that. we don't get adhesive name tags when we reach a point in the unseen realm, it's all moment to moment.

Gaskin, eh? Well let's not even TALK about him. As ususal he's just blowing smoke here, though. All the same, he's right in a way. If a 'zen master' does something dumb you might want to reconsider thinking of him as a zen master. After all, just as you say, we don't get adhesive name tags.
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Date: Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 12:36:17 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: no defense for others
Message:
hey jim,

are you looking for a perfect man? no such thing. life lessons come where they come and through who they come through. no need to bad-vibe somebody who did me some good in my life.

and as for smoke, drink, etc...as sufi sam (samuel lewis) said:

'you get more stinkin' from thinkin' than you do from (smokin' and) drinkin'.

have you ever read 'marijuana, magic and religions? in antiquity, there was almost always a substance involved called a sacrament that caused a buzz to turn folks away from the world toward the divine. the wine didn't used to be a sip, and it had a kick. and smoke goes way back through judaism and other religions and earlier...'green herbs for man'...genesis

i just listen for truth and it is so damn surprising that if i really am trying hard to hear the voice of god, it comes through anything and everything, inside and outside. like if you want to hear a certain radio station, you just tune your dial? i have my inner dial tuned to wanting to know the truth in this life, or why else do you think i am paying so much attention to this website?

interesting aside: i just discovered that my own ancestors pre-abraham before the covenant that began judaism, used to sacrifice their children. does that mean that i have to carry that around with me forever? am i responsible for that? does any of that invalidate the ten commandments, which were given to the descendants of those child-killing primitives? is a master allowed by the universe to f**k up on his/her cosmic workbench while tinkering with the evolution of the human race, with the ultimate outcome being a generally positive chakra upliftment? are all these negative experiences talked about on this site just eggshells from the cosmic omelette? did that guy who died at deca get to come back in style for his trouble? do you ever entertain the fact that there may be something more going on here than meets the eye? your comments as always are welcome. or are we witnessing a megalomaniac with delusions of grandeur? it's got to be one or the other....it's definitely not a typo!!!!!
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Date: Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 15:20:54 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Thanks for what?
Message:
Hey, shp, if you're so into the moment, how come you invite an imaginary creator in to spoil it, like you do when you gaze at a beautiful sky? Try appreciating it without him. That's REALLY being in the moment.
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Date: Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 23:38:47 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: just a moment....
Message:
i don't know about you, but when i am gazing at the beautiful sky as you put it, i can't help but acknowlege in my 'heart' that the eyes i am looking through were a gift and don't even know how they work or who designed them, and the whole phenomena of sight...but i have them to look through for now. as for the sky wow, i had nothing to do with it and there it is! so i feel appreciation and gratitude (M didn't introduce me to those concepts, i had them before).

but i understand what you mean...the 'no-mind' state of just 'being there' like a newborn baby and digging it.

i didn't introduce the concept of a creator into the picture. the way i see it, it was the other way around...the creator (whatever you conceive it to be) introduced me into the picture via my parents. what is your problem with that?
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Date: Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 23:59:27 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Read The Blind Watchmaker
Message:
shp,

You walked right into this one. I think you should read about the 'illsuion of design'. Get it? 'ILLUSION of design'. See? No? Then read the book.
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Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 00:33:32 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: you ain't my english prof
Message:
jim,

please speak plainly and don't give me reading assignments..that's acting like a megalomaniac who has the rap and so on, ya know...and that's not you, is it?

so be a sport and explain yourself and your ancillary terms herein or speak more simply or provide footnotes, but DO NOT GIVE ME READING ASSIGNMENTS in order to chat with you on this forum. make suggestions as to what you found interesting if you wish, but don't make it necessary for me to read a frigging book just to talk to ya here, ok?

aborigines may know what you know and may have never seen a book or know how to read, so please do not lord you intellect around me. shit man, i was just getting to like ya.
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Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 00:55:12 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: fair enough
Message:
Yes shp, I have to admit you have a good point there. You're right. Who am I to tell you what to read, etc. My apologies.

The Blind Watchmaker is just one book by Richard Dawkins, just one science writer among many (but one I know and like) who writes eloquently about evolution. In particular he explains the incredibly amazing yet undeniable truth that the complex organisms we're aware of (like us) evolved without a designer, all appearances notwithstanding.

He starts off the book describing the classic argument from design well-stated by William Paley, a naturalist ((?) in the early nineteenth century. Paley postulated the following thought experiment: you find a watch on the ground. Immediatley you sense that you've come across something that didn't just come into existence by happenstance. It's far too intricate. Something -- or someone -- must have designed it. Look around. People and the rest of creation are so much like that watch. Intricate, complex and often beautiful. Like the watch, they must have been designed. God, anyone?

That's it.

Evolutionary theory suggests that, in fact, there is no designer. Hence the 'Blind Watchmaker'.
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Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 01:12:17 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: fair enough...cool
Message:
jim,

thanks for explaining the blind watchmaker to me.

i still think there's an intellignece and love involved in the creation, call it what you will. and i do believe in the existence of a benevolent creator and that it manifests through certain people in great concentration from time to time, although we all have the potential. when someone comes along whose presence gets you high and whose words make your heart relax, are you too jaded to trust him or her again? i am looking for that person now and at the same time am looking for that person in the mirror when i am brushing my teeth and i am looking for that person as i write this to you. it's the conversation of the one talking to itself that i seek, the gulf stream in the stream of consciousness.

my feelings about M have changed as a result of my involvement with this site and you nice folks, but not enough to renounce.
there is more going on than meets the eye not only with M but everywhere, so i must be vigilant with all my 5 senses and then some.
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Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 02:33:56 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: just a moment....
Message:
How are you so sure that the eyes you are looking through is a 'gift'? You admit you don't know how they work or who designed them, but you make the assumption that some benevolent creator is responsible. Are you aware of the theory of natural selection? It challenges the existence of a creator. It does so with impeccable reason. Based on scientific discovery, it proves that all of 'creation' came about gradually. It proves that the God we were taught to believe in doesn't exist, so revisionists, terribly attached to the concept of a creator, have been busy at work revising their concepts so they can hold onto their beliefs. It's standard to accept that evolution is a fact, but still, creationists insist that God's hand was behind it when they didn't even know about evolution until an atheist, Charles Darwin, revealed it to them. Don't you find that odd?
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Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 09:16:01 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: ah buleeeeeeve!
Message:
hey jer,

you say po tay to
i say po tah to

this (existence of god) is a silly thing to debate
because we can't prove it either way

let's just be cool with each other
and speak without forked tongue

and be brothers
i will be contented with that

will you?
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Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 11:47:15 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: I'm cool.
Message:
I can be cool with being brothers who speak honestly to each other but I don't see why discussing the existence of a creator should be off limits. In my life, it's the single most important question I can ask. Getting to the bottom of it is my life's ambition. Silly me, eh?
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Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 12:09:17 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: I'm cool.
Message:
you said: Getting to the bottom of it is my life's ambition.

i say: so is mine. that is what led me to maharaji after a long and winding road of search and discovery. now here i am taking a second look at him due to my discovery of this website. my antennae are up, jer. i am praying without words with as many breaths as i can remember, to really know what the hell is going on. i want a peek at the akashic records, man! i want a peek at the akashic who's who in the universe guestbook!
I WANT THAT ALOT, PROBABLY MORE THAN ANY OTHER INFORMATION ON THE SUBJECT. I AM SEEKING AND I AM CONFIDENT I WILL FIND. I DON'T WANT TO LEAD MY FAMILY, FRIENDS OR STRANGERS DOWN A DEAD END. I DON'T WANT TO GIVE MY OWN SONS PARACHUTES WITH HOLES IN THEM. THIS IS DROP-DEAD SERIOUS TO ME.
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Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 12:26:37 (EST)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: the moment.
Message:
You're just talking beliefs and loss of beliefs. Just come back to the moment, gm has himself said that it's all there within you, why the need for anything else. If you're talking the route I think you're on, then you already know and live this on somne level BUT then comes the explanation.
The nigerian and french or german guru maharajis', exes who use an almost identical set-up, their followers get the same experiences or not as mr ( )'s followers.

I find no difference in the effects of meditation post-gm, how can that be, unless the experience is an internal one carried as part of my biological inheritance.
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Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 15:04:30 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: uhhhhh, ok
Message:
i looked for my god and he was no where to be
i looked for my soul and my soul i could not see
i looked for my brother/sister and i found all three

cliche? i think not.

we can debate god's existence til we all die and rot and never really know the answer.

stephen used to say that somebody up in the mountains who never saw a city or heard of a religion could be taking a shower under a waterfall one sunny day and have the very real experience of baptism in the holy spirit.

i just want my kids to be happy and not hurt themselves, nature or anybody else in the process. besides that, it's up to them how they live. if there is a diety, i think he/she/it feels the same way about us. just a gut feeling from a dad, ya know...as above so below. parenthood has brought me closer to the divinity inside.
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Date: Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 18:27:41 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Thanks, shp!!
Message:
Help! Why does the name Steven Gaskin sound so familiar?
REally, it's bugging me. Anyone know?

selene of the dead brain cells
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Date: Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 18:50:05 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: St. Stephen
Message:
Dear Selene -
Stephen Gaskin used to give lectures every Monday Night in the Bay Area - these were compiled into a book 'Monday Night Class'. He also wrote a book called 'The Caravan' about his commune's trip across America in school buses. He then founded a commune in Tennessee called 'The Farm' - they have a vegan cookbook that's quite good. I think it is still in existence (but am not sure)
And, as shp said, the Dead song 'Saint Stephen' was written about him.
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Date: Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 20:55:04 (EST)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Steve Gaskin ......
Message:
Some of the original members of 'The WELL' one of the premier online discussion mediums, were members of Steve Gaskin's Farm commune in Tennessee. Years ago I read some really interesting well-written discussions of their experiences at the farm and why they left.

Steve Gaskin is running for president
Steve Gaskin for President

-----------------------------------------

Here's an interesting piece, a report on the farm for a newspaper out of Nashville, Tennessee written 21 years ago by Al Gore, the currenrt vice-president of the USA.

Al Gore on The Farm

the farm is still extant. Here's their website:

The Farm

And here's the report of a person who recently visited:
visit to the farm
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Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 19:03:18 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Steve Gaskin ......
Message:
Didn't Steve Gaskins wife write that classic SPiritual Midwifery? That was a great book. Sorry if someone has alrady mentioned this, I'm not able to keep up w/everything on the forum these days
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Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 23:22:47 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: her name is ina may
Message:
hi helen,

just clearing the slate before i hit the hay
yes, it was stephen's wife ina may who wrote
spiritual midwifery
i had the privilege of being there in those busses
and tents back in the first farm years
and watching my friends give birth naturally
with ina may's and stephen's help and guidance
and the guidance of other at the farm who knew

i am eteranlly grateful to them
for i delivered my firstborn son
caught him with my own hands, i did
the midwife was in the bathroom
what a thrill for a father and mother
and the kid...do it yourself family
with god's help of course

and also helped with son #2
but didn't catch him, the midwife did
i was on deck near my wife
doing breathing exercises with her

drowsing out...gotta go
love ya, 'dances-with -dogs'

'chats with soil'
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 09:05:32 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: her name is ina may
Message:
shp, (dirt dude) I'm enjoying reading your posts about 'The Farm'. Very interesting. I have a personel story about it--I'll tell ya off-line sometime,

Would love to hear more sometime, about the births and the midwifery. Very interested in that subject. Frustrated cause I don;t have much time for the forum these days, but I am following along and reading it as much as I can.

Dances
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 09:27:18 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: hi helen
Message:
hi helen,

you are a nice person, notwithstanding your stand on Maharaji.
your presence is stabilizing, kind and sincere.
i tell you this because sometimes we go through things that make us feel weak and don't realize the good effect we are having on others. and you sounded a little sad that you don't have time to come here as often as you'd like to, probably because of some worldly responsibility that you have the conscientiousness to fulfill. well bless ya helen. whenever you post you will be appreciated here. take care.
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 18:07:11 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: hi helen
Message:
Hey dirt chat,
That was a very kind post, shp. I needed a little kindness today, thanks. I have more responsibilities at work this month (fortunately they gave me a raise) and I'm leaving my office later in the day--which means rush hour traffic--which means more stress. I also have to renew my job search for a permanent job in my field (the work I'm doing now is temporary, and the commute is hell, I need something closer to home) I'm a little sad that modern life is so damn stressful and that my writing and music seem to take a back burner to the toil of daily life. That's it in a nutshell--I gotta go pick up my daughter at the babysitter's. Thanks again for your kind words. No matter how we may feel about GM, I think you & I are on the same page about a lot ofthings. And I appreciate that you live from the heart and that you aren't afraid to love. WOuld really like to hear more about midwifery, home schooling and the like. To everything isa season, and I'm sure we'll get caught up soon

Love,
Dog dancer
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 23:34:03 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: midwife website
Message:
helen,
try keyword 'the farm' and click onto midwifery. let me know if you get thru. g/nite.
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Date: Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 19:56:55 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Thanks, shp!!
Message:
Gaskin was a meglomaniac who's commune was premised on the notion that he and he alone had the rap, knew the shit, was the man, walked the walk, etc.
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Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 00:21:48 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Thanks, shp!!
Message:
you said:
Gaskin was a meglomaniac who's commune was premised on the notion that he and he alone had the rap, knew the shit, was the man, walked the walk, etc.

i say:
i lived on the farm with stephen gaskin the first year it was established in 1971-2. i dropped out of college in january of 1971 after hearing him speak at the university of missouri when he came through on his caravan. i only had 1 semester to go to graduate, and stephen was the first person i ever got high from listening to. he made sense to such a degree that he deserved the authority he had. remember this was vietnam, kent state, nixon going on. stephen's caravan helped to defuse alot of the potential for violence around campuses from both students and the govt. this isn't theory, i was there.

we all lived in busses and tents, as homes were just beginning to get built. we dug ditches for the original water pipes that still supply the laundry and other facilities on the farm. the place was set up as a 'beatnik monastery', and if you were sleeping with your sweetie you were engaged, if you were pregnant you got married. stephen was the accepted 'abbott' and we lived like 'technicolor amish'...very colorful clothes but old fashioned values as far as human relationships. i learned about eating right and natural childbirth there (years later i delivered my own kids with a midwife's assistance thanks to that experience). and most of all i learned about communication and what being straight with people means....how words can lie, but vibes can't. we were responsible for our thoughts as weel as our deeds and we did alot of sorting out of feelings, but it sure did feel nice among the people who did it. taking time to be straight with others instead of...'look at the time, gotta go, let's do lunch' of this world.

he isn't a megalomaniac. he always respected the truth whoever it came out of. he was not into praise or blame and busted anyone who was. there were times he asked me to help sort out a problem some farmers were having, so he did trust others. he was right on more often than anyone else around and we all knew it, so he got the floor. as the farm and the farmers got older, some folks didn't need as much guidance anymore, so instead of graciously declining his input, they called him pushy (just like my 14 year old is doing to me about now in his life). i still call stephen on occasion, and we talk about stuff. i feel he is a living saint. you think what you want. i left after a year for my own curiosity, not for anything negative. i am considering going back there someday. they have a deal where you can get a cabin on the land in the woods to live out your days when you get real old and are getting ready to die in a peaceful and natural environment...the same deal is available for folks who have aids or some other fatal disease and want to go out in a natural way. they have medical pros on staff, buy the way..they also have a natural childbirth center, and encourage ladies around the country in magazine ads who are considereing having abortions to come to the farm and have the kids there and leave him there to be raised and if they want to come back someday and get their kid when they think they can handle it, that's ok too. or they can stay on farm. that's how it used to be.

i could go on, but only if you ask for more. you get the idea. i love and respect the guy, and he doesn't need me to defend him. i just wanted to tell you a little about him so you wouldn't embarass yourself by speaking out of ignorance. the farmers went to nyc to help out in the slums, they had a boat that went to guatemala after an earthquake or something, they travel all over the world to this day teaching self-reliance, midwifery, healthy babies, clean air and water, etc.

so jim, how you doin'?
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Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 00:58:18 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Thanks, shp!!
Message:
No time to reply other than to say it's Saturday Night and time go out and check out some coutnry punk bands: The Buttless Chaps and the Cactus Pricks!

Later.
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Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 19:15:06 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Thanks, shp!!
Message:
Just what we need, another one of *those* kinds of
Presidents. That was a joke about him running, no?
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Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 23:34:41 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: hello there selene
Message:
stephen kinda knows he's not going to win
he's running in order to call attention to
three major issues that comprise his platform:
campaign finance reform, universal healthcare
and a repeal of the marijuana laws

he wants al gore to pay attention to these issues
if he wins, so he's putting his ass on the line
and getting into the messy world of politics
which is really not his cup of tea

as for you looking down your nose at him
you must have never met him selene
he's a lovable, straightforward
bottom line linda guy
i think you'd love him if you knew him

as for you judgemental attitude i.e. *those*
just exactly which suburb are you from?
and as for the marijuana laws
it's not just about smoke, ya know?
hemp use for paper could have saved
millions of trees and there are many more
valuable uses such as food, oil, cloth, etc..
but if you don't learn about this yourself
you will consider all this the rantings
of a pothead...

so he wants all us citizens to have adequate
medical care regradless of money
he wants the politicians to clean up their act
and he wants perhaps the most useful plant
on the planet to be decriminalized
i don't see a problem with that, do you?

all due respect,
shp
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 11:07:28 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: cannabils cannabils cannabils
Message:
shp:

hemp use for paper could have saved
millions of trees and there are many more
valuable uses such as food, oil, cloth, etc..
but if you don't learn about this yourself
you will consider all this the rantings
of a pothead...


Are you saying that if we cultivate cannabis instead of conifer it will somehow save the natural forest? Do you get more paper per acre from hemp? Forgive me, but that doesn't seem very likely. For awhile it was very faddish to use hemp oil on bicycle chains. However, it did not make very good chain oil so people stopped using it.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 12:37:29 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: facts
Message:
you can get 4 times as much good paper
from an acre of hemp than an acre of trees
in a fraction of the time
this is documented common knowledge
among students of the subject

and hemp seeds are 25% protein with no
psychoactive effects
and the hemp oil contains al the essential
fatty acids necessary for a helathy immune system

just like cortez criminalized amaranth
the aztecs basic grain and food supply
as well as their source of bulk for cloth, etc
in order to conquer the civilization
so is it happening now with rich white (mainly)
european males messing with nature and concocting
synthetics for profit and trashing the worlds lungs
the trees
all in the name of short-sighted ignorant greed
and don't dipute me if you don't know what you are
talking about...that is beneath you.

for chirst's sake, thomas jefferson, george washington
and ben franklin all encouraged folks to grow it everywhere
in wwii the govt paid farmers to grow it for rope
for the war effort against hitler & co
after japan occupied the phillipines and controlled
our jute sisal and manila hemp sources.

in wwii soldiers' shoes were sewn together with hemp thread
and george bush hung onto hemp parachute cables when he was
shot down (pre-nylon)...england wouldn't sell paper to ben franklin because they feared his wit and editorials against the motherland empire...so he grew hemp for paper...all the archival documents of the usa are written on it.....hemp cloth is 40 times the tinsel strength of cotton and requires no pesticides to grow it.......

it was wm randolph hearst who owned newspapers
and vast quantities of timberland
who demonized hemp by introducing the term
'marijuana' into american culture thru his papers
and defining it as some loco weed the mexican soldiers
smoked and then rampantly killed men women and kids
in the recent mexican american war of the early
20th century

but hey! this is where i came in if you recall
a few moons ago when i first discovered this site
so let's not go there unless you really want the facts
i don't feel like be discriminated against by ignorance today.
let's just say it's not nice to mess with mother nature.
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 16:30:33 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: facts^3=hyperbole
Message:
shp:

You're right. It is entirely sensible to conclude that hemp would save the world, and that Hurst (of all people) is responsible for keeping it from us. Over four times the yield of conifer? This is 'common knowledge?' Cites please. Assertions don't cut it, when it comes to this sort of thing. Farbeit from me to dispute the claim that hemp seeds have no phychoactive effect. I CAN attest to the fact that they cause headaches, though... and coughing. The rest must have been the result of hyperventilation. (I did not inhale, I just sipped officer.)

Jack-in-the-Hempstalk
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 16:44:51 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: facts^3=hyperbole
Message:
Scott: The seeds do contain small quantities of THC. I agree with you, I would like to see this 'documented common knowledge' source, myself. I, for one, can tell you that the Navy will never return to hemp, as a mainstay, because modern hausers (all synthetic) used on modern ships can produce snap-back (and resulting death), but you get plenty of 'warning' with synthetics. You get NO warning with hemp.... It just snaps and kills!
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 23:48:03 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: facts^3=hyperbole
Message:
scott,

ask and ye shall receive:

check out www.hemptech.com

also, check out a small book called industrial hemp-practical products-paper to fabric to cosmetics:

page 13: from the 1938 popular mechanics article 'new billion dollar crop':

'american farmers are promised a new cash crop...a machine has been invented which solves the problem more than 6000 years old...designed for removing the fiber from the rest of the stalk...hemp is the standard fiber of the world. it has great tensile strength and durability. it is used to produce more than 5000 textile products ranging from rope to fine laces and the woody hurds can be used to produce more than 25000 products ranging from dynamite to cellophane. it can be grown in any state in the union.'

in his october 30, 1988 editorial in california's most conservative newspaper, the orange county register, senior columnist alan bock stated that 'since 1937, about half the forest in the world have been cut down to make paper. if hemp has not been outlawed, most would still be standing, oxygenating the planet.'

this is just the tip of the iceberg.
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 16:36:41 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Huh?
Message:
shp: Why do you care so much about our 'lungs' now? It didn't seem to bother you that M dumps TONS of pollutants into the environment for his own personal aggrandizement. You blew that one off with a figurative wave-of-your-hand. I don't get it. Could this be a double-standard?

I think that you'll find that Harry Anslinger (seeking high political office) had more to do with the marijuana scare than Hurst (IMHO). Additionally, I blieve that parachutes worn by pilots overflying the ocean were made out of silk (including cords). I could be wrong on that one, but if I remember correctly, hemp rope/cord will chafe silk easily.

You have brought up some interesting questions, however. Animal rights folks think that using animal skins for shoes is inhumane. They would prefer synthetics be used. However, the creation of synthetics creates MASSIVE amounts of pollution. Interesting quandry, eh? Maybe hemp is the answer.... Anyone heard of hemp shoes? Do they last very long or do we waste precious resources making something else that falls apart in two days?
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 17:15:27 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Huh?
Message:
Mike:

Re: Maybe hemp is the answer.... Anyone heard of hemp shoes? Do they last very long or do we waste precious resources making something else that falls apart in two days?

Title: 'Where do sneakers come from, and what did Thomas Jefferson have to do with it?' Christian Science Monitor 1998-12-01 Article by Suman Bandrapalli, Staff writer
Opening paragraph: 'Canvas' is a corruption of the Dutch word for 'cannabis,' Greek for hemp. The plant, native to central Asia, was cultivated for its fiber in China as early as 2800 BC. Hemp made its way to Europe 2,000 years ago. The tough plant was used for rope, fish nets, sails, tents, and work garments. (The first blue jeans were made of hemp canvas.) The narcotic use of Cannabis sativa, or marijuana (as it was called in American Spanish), w... (915 words)

Jack-in-the-Hempstalk
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 17:54:56 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: That's GREAT!
Message:
Scott: Wow.... we can smoke our sneakers! LOL LOL. Good info, I'd never read that one, but it doesn't surprise me. SHP may think that I was being a smart-alek (well, I was a little bit), but the subject does interest me. I would like to see hemp used again as a raw material, wherever it is still appropriate. But, it seems to me that if it was really THAT useful (today), farmers would be clamoring to produce it. I don't hear the clamor. It may be a more effective source of paper, but most paper is produced as a byproduct of lumber production (at least, that is my understanding). In other words, it wouldn't stop tree cutting, because it can't replace lumber for homes. Well, then again.... How about a hemp-house? Nahhhhh, that's silly, no?
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 18:44:21 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: That's GREAT!
Message:
Mike:

Re: How about a hemp-house? Nahhhhh, that's silly, no?

Bucky had a lot of ideas about low tech construction materials, and especially plywood. However, most of these designs were for third-world areas and were intended as stop-gaps. His primary housing designs required tolerances of 1/10,000th of an inch, which is just not possible with low tech materials. He used to complain a lot about how we had put housing on such a low priority that we were willing to construct them out of essentially dirt and wood. Can't see how hemp would foot the bill either, but I'm open to anything. If a hemp product could have, say, an R10 insulation value, and be as strong as ballistic nylon or kevlar... hey, I'd go for it. High-tech tensegrity tents full of electronic gadgets and Brookstone tools.

Jack-in-the-Hempstalk
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 00:24:09 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: hemp house not silly at all
Message:
the hemp house of the very near future
(from hemptech's industrial hemp booklet)
www.hemptech.com

'while the following scenario may read like a futuristic fantasy, today's prjections are the source of tomorrow's reality. a hundred years ago, the idea that so many of today's household products would be made from wood composites and synthetic petroleum would have benn a fanciful one.

on a day within the next 10 years, you wake up in a house whose walls, roof flooring, insulation and paint are derived from hemp. it's a beautiful morning, and you feel great after sleeping on your hemp-stuffed mattress and soft sheets and pillowcases spun from hemp fiber. you sink your feet into the hemp rugs as you get out of bed and open the hemp drapes.

you jump into the shower, where you use soap, shampoo and hair conditioner made from hemp. you step out onto the hemp bathmat, drying yourself with a superabsorbant hemp towel. you clean your ears with h-tips (better and cehaper than the old cotton swabs), and apply hemp-oil lotion, moisterizer and lip balm. you make a mental note to buy some more hemp toilet paper, recalling how it wasn't too long ago that we were cutting down 200 year old trees to flush down the toilet. opening your closet, you dress in hemp jeans, shirt and jacket, then put on hemp socks and shoes, tie the hemp laces, and grab your hemp wallet which holds checks and currency printed on hemp paper.

you're hungry, so you walk into the kitchen with its hemp=based linoleum floor. you eat a sandwich made with wheat andhemp-flour bread and a salad with hemp oil dressing and pour a glass of organic hemp milk. after eating, you wash your dishes using hemp-oil dish soap and a hemp pot scrubber and put the dishes away in a cabinet built of hemp fiberboard. sitting down on the hemp framed and upholstered couch, you glance at a newspaper printed with hemp ink on hemp content paper and learn that the hemp industry is now the largest agribusiness and job provider in your state. you turn on the stereo which sits on a hemp fiberboard cabinet and listen to music as it vibrates from speakers also made from hemp fiberboard, containing specialty hemp paper for the speaker cones, and covered with black hempen cloth.

leaving the house for work, you open the door of your car, built from strong lightweight composites that include hemp. relaxing into the reclining seat, luxuriously upholstered with hemp textiles, you rest your feet on floormats that look like rubber but are made from hemp. as you drive to uyour job at the new hemp-fiber processing facility, you pass farmers harvesting hemp that is revitalizing your community's rural economy.'

another good site: 'the ohio hempery'
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 00:04:34 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Huh?
Message:
adidas has the super modified hemp sneaker - very neat.
deja shoes makes hemp hikers...
there's an ecco type company that designed a hiker for woody harrelson who backs the movement....

pick up a hemp times or a hemp world magazine at any full-service news/magazine stand. you will get a real education.

btw anslinger was andrew mellon's (mellon bank - in bed in congress, rockefeller (petrol raw materials) dupont (frankenstein chemist) and carnegie and the rest) son-in-law or nephew or some relationship. it's all connected, but you have to dig a little.

as for m's jet, i did not dodge the question. at the time i said the plusses outweighed the minusses...if the trip is righteous.

this is not my burning passion, but i am definitely into it.
calvin klein and ralph lauren are stockpiling it for the right politically correct moment to roll out their hemp jeans, etc.
mercedes benz is messing with hemp fiber reinforced composites for steel substitutes for car bodies (in the spirit of henry ford who tried it first but got shot down by the steel industry) and armiani is using it too.

it's just a very practical way of expressing devotion to god for me to try to use the creation the way it was meant to be used, kind of like the native americans...no waste, respect nature.
no, i am not all there yet and i am sure you could find hypocrisy in my life at this point...but i am moving in that direction.
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 10:09:47 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Good post, shp
Message:
shp: Thanks for the info. I don't think that hemp will be the cure-all, but it wouldn't hurt to try to use it for many more things than we do now. For one thing, growing any single plant, even hemp, on a particular parcel of land and the nutrients will be depleted, as I am sure you know since you worked on the 'Farm.' To do ALL of the things that you mentioned in your posts and produce in quantities that would fulfill global needs seems a bit far-fetched, but I'm all ears, as they say. Remember, too, that all green things oxygenate the planet, not just trees. I agree that our trees have taken quite a beating, but most of the beating hasn't been at the hands of woodcutters; it's been at the hands of slash-and-burn farmers in the rain forest areas. More wood is being cut and wasted there than anywhere else on the planet. Additionally, they aren't even attempting to replant deforested areas. Not a good sign, I'm afraid.
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 12:57:02 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: hello there selene
Message:
My ex was into him. that's why it sounded familiar
and as soon as people explained who S.G. was, I
remembered all those wonderful (not) years.
Of course it's not Steven's fault that someone into
him was, well, never mind.
So, you are right, I don't know what he is like.
I have seen up close and personal the results of long term habitual pot smoking. Though I consider pot less harmful than some addictions, alcoholism for example,
I disagree about some of the 'benefits' of pot.
sorry about that. I still think it should be legal
but only because I think it would cut down on crime, drug trafficking etc. and that addicts should be treated and not thorwn in jail.
Anyway as you said, he probably doesn't have a chance given the current events, we will be lucky if the next president is into any of these more 'liberal' causes. I hope I am wrong.
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 00:36:46 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: hello there selene
Message:
'you get more stinkin' from thinkin'
than you do from smokin' and drinkin''
-sufi sam
(samuel lewis, who gave up the levi's fortune to be a whirling dervish 'mr. natural'-saint)

to much of most anything ain't good, selene.

and i subscribe to jesus' words about what people do:
(paraphrased) what goes in a person doesn't defile the person...
it's what comes forth from a person's heart that blesses or defiles a person.

if the government really cared about folks hurtng themselves, do you think that alchohol, tobacco, caffeine would be the state approved drugs of the dominanat social order? did you ever hear an accident reported on the news saying that the driver had 'excessive amounts of caffeine in their system as was arrested.'?
it's all about money, selene.

but it has always been thus.
it is for me to find my way to a peaceful and simple existence in
happiness and gratitude for this life, helping who i can along my way to find the same if they seek it.
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Date: Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 23:41:42 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Thanks, shp!!
Message:
monday night class in the 60's in san francisco, bus caravan around the country 70-71, settled in tennessee and founded the farm, authored and helped author many books on veggie cooking, midwifery (with wife ina may), nature of truth...ring any bells?
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Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 10:27:01 (EST)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: shp.... do you know.......
Message:
.....from the farm days John Coate or Cliff Figalo?
One of them was nicknamed 'Tex'
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Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 12:10:35 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: shp.... do you know.......
Message:
NOPE
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Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 23:14:15 (EST)
From: op
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: shp.... do you know.......
Message:
shp:

maybe I missed a post, but what years were you at the farm? I might have some names to ask you about, too.
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Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 23:36:01 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: op
Subject: shp.... do you know.......
Message:
1971-2
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Date: Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 12:16:30 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: button button
Message:
actually is was the post button that did it. he he

it's saturday, and i must say
i feel a little different today
parts of my brain are feeling tingly
and i feel all-together singly
my kids are mellow and being nice
my wife is sweet and cooking rice
i feel real fine and pretty cool
i'm not here to be anybody's fool
there is no way to know for sure
if i have the disease or have the cure
all i know is i can say
i feel a little different today
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 12:25:56 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: meanwhile, back on earth...
Message:
Dear shp -
I'm fully aware that the state of the world is horrendous. It's not only the item(s) which you mentioned, but the environment we live in is being destroyed as we speak. I agree that these are important issues. I have thought, and do think, about them a lot. As I said to Orlando below, one of the reasons that I followed Maharaji in the first place is that he promised to bring peace to the world. I really wanted to help him do that. I don't believe that that is his goal any more, obviously.

I often become very concerned and feel helpless because of the magnitude of the problems facing all of us. I have been trying to 'think globally, act locally', and that has helped me a lot. (I'm assuming that you do the same, since you mentioned some volunteer work that you do.) If I didn't think that this forum and website helped people, I wouldn't be here.

I think I've said this before, but I appreciate your open-mindedness and willingness to listen to the people who contribute to this forum and site. A lot of other people have either rationalized, didn't listen, or have said that it's all lies. You are right that the final decision is up to you, and it's not an easy one to make.

Take care,
Katie
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 13:52:26 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: meanwhile, back on earth...
Message:
thanks for the kind presence, Katie. i believe that humanity has dug a ten foot hole and all it has is a 5 foot ladder. a believe that some sort of divine intervention, natural catastrophes, or something of that magnitude is going to happen to have to save a remnant of humanity. native american, early christian, and other prophecies allude to such a moment, a flash when all the negativity will just vaoprize or something of the sort..

i remain the happy peaceful warrior...the lightness will sustain me, and heaviness in any form will sink whosoever clings to it.

many things i have read here give me 'cause to pause' and the god inside my heart says'.....go past the paradox on this one, seek the truth (heaven is from the greek meaning truth). see ya.
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Date: Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 20:51:37 (EST)
From: Jane
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: meanwhile, back on earth...
Message:
You are right - Maharaji's goal is not to bring peace to the world - but to bring peace to every individual who wants it.
Knowledge is that perfect clarity and peace! It never changes - it's perfect!
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Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 00:05:57 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jane
Subject: Then why'd he say this..
Message:
You are right - Maharaji's goal is not to bring peace to the world - but to bring peace to every individual who wants it.

Jane,

You're obviously a very bright woman. How is it you can say what you've just said here in light of Maharaji's most famous satsang, 'The Peace Bomb', in which he said:

I declare I will establish peace in this world.

??
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Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 05:39:32 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Then why'd he say this..
Message:
People like Jane should read stuff like the Pinata satasang where prempal talks about the role of Guru. Maybe it will help them either understand the level of 'spiritual' kidnapping that was/is taking place or enhance their own unadmitted belief system.
I hope that satsang is in JM's historical site,,anyway here is a quote:
'So remember: we are part of Him who has manifested Himself as a Guru and who has come into this earth, and now we have to be one with Him. We have to completely merge and make our souls one with Him because He is perfect, and once we merge with Him we will also be perfect.(Pinata Satasang Dec10th 1971 Prem Nagar India)'
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Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 16:55:53 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jane
Subject: meanwhile, back on earth...
Message:
Dear Jane - you wrote:

You are right - Maharaji's goal is not to bring peace to the world - but to bring peace to every individual who wants it.

Jim has already addressed this, but I did want to add that at the time I received K, I believed that Maharaji's goal was to bring peace to the world. I believed this because Maharaji himself said it over and over, and it was a really important component in my desire to practice knowledge and do service for him.

I am not sure I would have followed Maharaji if his goal had been stated as you state it above ('to bring peace to every individual who wants it'). I guess that I probably wouldn't have, because the main reason that I stopped following him was that I realized that he was NOT going to bring peace to the world - and that basically he had just created another religion. I know you probably don't agree with this, but it was something I experienced as a revelation, and I believe that it's true.

Regards,
Katie
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 14:49:14 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: meanwhile, back on earth...
Message:
shp:

RE: the world's governments and economic barons are plotting to create a cashless society step by step and have us all either carry cards with microchips in them or have them actually implanted in our bodies...there are 'powers and principalities of darkness in high places' that really don't give a shit what is distracting us from our potential fate, as long as we are locked into the game.

Not to take issue with your theory that power corrupts, but just what is so bad about a cashless society, as long as you can secure your resources? Cash is a pain in the butte. As for implanting chips in our bodies..., not very likely. You can barely get people in Boston to wait for a red light. That concept makes no sense whatever. Don't you think unbridled conspiracy theories are distracting?

-Scott
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 19:56:02 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: meanwhile, back on earth...
Message:
scott,

type in the keywords 'mark of the beast' and check out the photo and the story behind it if you think this is all a bunch of x-files fiction...this is X-FILES WITH A CAPITAL X. and i have a gut feeling we should be aware of things like this developing quietly around us. i am not coming from fear. i am coming from my heart and moving towards consciousness. i want to know.
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 20:53:23 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: meanwhile, back on earth...
Message:
So shp,

I guess I feel like giving you satsang brother , but it's not about Maharaji, it's about LIFE-What you are meditating on that you love so much is God inside yourself. I think it's beautiful that you say that it's not the techniques, it's the attitude you bring to your meditation/devotion. That is the spirit that I think makes religion or spirituality come alive.That will always be there. Feel free to em me anytime, my em address is on top of my journey story on this website.

Take care,
Helen
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Date: Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 01:22:26 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: meanwhile, back on earth...
Message:
shp:

I don't really care what people are planning from their high vantage points. The issue is what people will stand for... what their ideological starting point is. Do you know anything about this? I could have a long discussion with you about what 'the beast' means in terms of power, but you focus too much on what you think the desires of power are, and too little on what would have to transpire in order for them to fulfill those desires. Most conspiracy theorists have this flaw. Americans in the twentieth century are all-but-ungovernable, an attitude that has been developing from a strong value tradition over two hundred years old. Those values are getting stronger, deeper, and more uniform... not weaker and more deferential. This, I can prove.

The issue is that property has become ephemeral, and we need to make adjustments to our conceptions about privacy and security that recognize the shift. Your being able to secure property that belongs to you, and resisting false claims against that security, are the real issues. This is do-able, and lawmakers are sufficiently accountable (still) that you can place pressure on them to make the necessary changes, providing you are informed enough to know what they are. Did you ever hear the story about driving with your hands on the rear-view mirror, instead of the steering wheel? If you want to know where all those scary references in Revelation came from, read Plato's Republic. Then let's stop the silliness.

-Scott
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Date: Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 10:11:52 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: lions/tigers/beasts omy
Message:
scott, how ya doin,

i feel familiar with ya because one of my brothers (the surviving one) is named scott and we are very close.

you work computers? you sound like someone who has a vested interest in the process of computerization on some level.

what i speak of is real. right now there are thousands if not millions of animals with chips embedded in them in the name of
keeping your pet from getting lost or stolen (satellite locators
can spot these things). the alleged plan is to have these embedded in human babies at birth or shortly after to insure no lost or stolen babies...how sweet. at the same time, there are cities that are experimenting with a cashless system (atlanta for one) and all the huge banks are going for it, worldwide.

in all the ups codes (those little black lines cashiers scan) there are 3 major break lines, one at the beginning, one in the middle and one atthe end of the bars...the number value of these
break bars which just happened to work the best, is 6. so you have three 6's on every single item with a ups code on it already my friend. and businesses cannot buy or sell anymore without that mark, just like the prophecy said. this is not the plato's cave i am describing. this is what we will all see when we turn away from all the illusions (tv, movies, sports, trips of various sorts). the new us currency is also linked into it as a transition to the smartcards. i have done alot of looking into this with eyes open, scott. it's not silliness.

check out keywords like 'cashless society', 'mondex', 'mark of the beast' for starters. this is not a joke. but hey, believe what you want. i'll still talk to ya.
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Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 01:58:23 (EST)
From: Scott
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: right
Message:
shp:

you sound like someone who has a vested interest in the process of computerization on some level

Right, just like I would have had a vested interest in the steam engine or the turbojet. Computers are devices for storing and retrieving pattern information. It is a useful thing to be able to do, not a conspiracy.

what i speak of is real. right now there are thousands if not millions of animals with chips embedded in them in the name of
keeping your pet from getting lost or stolen (satellite locators
can spot these things).


You're right... that sounds awfully scary.

the alleged plan is to have these embedded in human babies at birth or shortly after to insure no lost or stolen babies...

That sounds like a proposal rather than 'a plan.' A better plan would be to have some sort of ID device that sloughed off after a few weeks. That would not be quite so ominous, but would still relieve the anxiety of the parents who've been pressuring hospitals for something like this.

there are cities that are experimenting with a cashless system (atlanta for one) and all the huge banks are going for it, worldwide.

Well, just because they're going for it doesn't mean it will fly. Ever hear of the Susan B. Anthony dollar, or the metric system?

The UPS thing is interesting, but of what importance is the fact that the number 'six' is convenient? Why is it convenient? Is it just practical?? Before electronic transfer, businesses couldn't buy or sell without currency either. Was that some sort of conspiracy? The number '666' is a Platonic reference to something called a 'perfect number series.' Plato had this theory about the progress of political systems, from 'Timocracy' (like Sparta, based on honor) to Oligarchy to Democracy to Tyranny. It corresponded to the perfect number series in which 3 to the third + 4 to the third + 5 to the third = 6 to the third.

3*3*3+4*4*4+5*5*5=6*6*6=216

The ancients ascribed mystical significance to numeric patterns, and Plato describes this series as something like the mother of all cycles. It's therefore an analogy to his theory about politics and the inevitability of the political cycle. John, a Greek, was simply reiterating what he had learned in his schooling, only in a religious context. Most people in the archaic world understood the references very clearly. The point is that Plato was wrong. His theory, although brilliant, was only relevant to certain societies under certain conditions. Obviously democracy doesn't always lead to tyranny. Quite the contrary. BTW, 'the beast' is the 'tyrant' whom Plato describes in great detail. John was simply copying Republic, as a sort of literary device that would be familiar to his readers. It was a way of legitimating himself, and the cult to which he belonged.

You, my friend, are drinking too much Java.

-Scott
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Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 09:42:24 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Scott
Subject: right
Message:
scott,

you are right about the java consumption!

as for the 666, it is recorded in a book that was written 2000 years ago and edited over the years, but it points to the antichrist as you are probably well aware. the book is the book of revelation, which was st john's meditation journal that was slapped onto a compilation of edited works called the king james version in the middle ages. nevertheless, this prophecy has endured editing, time, corrupt kings and scribes to still is around. there is something to be said for that. all the brilliant men who came up with that numeric forula you showed me all subscribed to a mindset that has evolved into a universal mark on all goods bought and sold and must be there for transactions to occur....universal price code, which fulfills a prophecy from john's eye-opening meditations he had in his final days on the isle of patmos 2000 years ago.

man's trust in man's mind devised the 666 theory you described. perhaps that's our biggest enemy and a divine theocracy (kingdom of heaven established on earth...god walking among us as written)
is the alternative...great huge leaps of faith necessary here. and by the way, i am not coming from any denominational or non-denominational religious point of reference. i am a free agent in the universe looking for the good stuff!

perhaps the prophecy was to warn us of the ominous 'terminator land' scenario that could well develop where computers and robots run it all and humans are the endangered species. maybe all those great thinkers you mentioned were little dr. frankensteins and the proof of the pudding won't manifest until it's too late unless you trust historical warnings.

also, in the pope's crown are the latin words 'vicar of chirst on earth'...the numeric value of the roman letters is 666...it's also on his ring. and ronald wilson reagan (6 letters in each name) can be rearranged to read 'insane anglo warlord' without losing or repeating a letter. coincidence?

i look at the 'modern world' and i don't trust the architects who built it because it's falling apart. i don't care how smart other people say some other people are. being from missouri (the 'show me state') i tend to be like st. thomas who needed to stick his hand into chirst's wounds to really believe he was alive and kicking. and christ didn't bust him for it either, he patiently did what it took to give thomas what he needed to believe. i rely on that in my life, and that is why i have been hanging out on this site.
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Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 10:24:50 (EST)
From: Orlando
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: help needed
Message:
with all due respect,
shp what is this gibberish about 666, antechrist, computer chips?
i am amazed that noone blasted you yet on this. people have been 'blowned out of the water' for less than that around here.
it must me because Jim, jerry & all feel that you are in a sensitive stage of your deprogramming process...and they don't want to antagonize you...
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Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 12:16:09 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: help needed
Message:
hey orlando,

you crack me up. i'm about 50 years old, helped deliver both our kids, been to hell and back in this lifetime (trust me), and you think i'm vulnerable now??? or that the folks here think i'm at a 'sensitive stage in my deprogramming'?

i know you have what you think are my best interests at heart, but it has been my experience that in my life the good stuff survives and the bullsh**t blows away. i don't have to monitor it. the truth will stick to me because i want it to in my heart.

thanks for caring all the same, you may even be right about the motives of some here, but i am ok.
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Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 12:58:57 (EST)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: Big help needed
Message:
' am amazed that noone blasted you yet on this. people have been 'blowned out of the water' for less than that around here''

Or maybe it's because he's already gained more respect here than some other people because he's prepared to go for it and not just hide behind pravda speak. Consequently doesn't get pulled up every time. The right of speach is granted to all here, but respect has to be gained, you'll understand this when you grow up.

Get a life.

It's not your views that I find SO obnoxious, it's your attitude. Remember you're a guest here, or as a premie are you beyond all that, because you're doing the lord's work....etc etc....blah blah
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Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 14:53:39 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: and freedom tastes of reality
Message:
to quote 'tommy', 'i'm free', either side of the M issue.
hamzen, your name conjurs up a caricature of a pig in a grey robe with little spectacles and a zen stick stuck in your curly tail...
ham-zen.
we agree on lettin' 'em swing around here and let the hearts speak freely. thank you for acknowledging my effort to be real.
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Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 16:55:19 (EST)
From: Orlando
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: as a guest
Message:
with all due respect, please let me point out to you that shp has suddenly gained respect around here when he started expressing some 'doubts'?
an again
anyone else presenting this point of view on antechrist and computer chips in babies would have been laughed right out of here...so i doubt very much that you SUDDENLY found this a very sensitive point of view
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Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 17:29:54 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: as a guest
Message:
To me shp became more of a person and less of a cult member when he said he had some doubts and was willing to examine his beliefs in light of getting at the truth. Also he shares personal things about himself which I appreciate and can relate to.

So what about those questions I asked you, O?
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Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 23:45:38 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: no doubt
Message:
let me say that i expressed not doubt
but the certainty that i had doubt
there is a difference

to be in doubt is to be uncertain
to be in fear and mistrust
to be in a weakened state

this is not where i am at my friends
i am quite certain that i have questions
i am quite certain that things said
on this site have troubled me
i am quite certain that
i am in a strengthened state
not a weakened one

maharaji said leave no room for doubt
in your mind
and i am not in doubt
i am in a state of faith in myself
and the god within me
that demands to know the truth

so how you all doin' on this lovely
sunday night?

geez, i was feelin' like a lab rat for awhile there....
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Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 16:13:29 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: help needed
Message:
Hey Orlando, you didn't answer my questions after you played the race card on Mike about being Hispanic. Can you do so now? I'm really curious about this.

Also, shp HAS garnered a measure of respect for his honesty and straight forwardness. He did kinda come out swingin', though. I don't even feel compelled to call him sheep any more. He seems like a pretty cool guy.

I don't have any delusions about his 'deprogramming.' He's sounds too steeped in mystical and magical thinking to really come around to the rational and (IMO) real. So be it. Years of conditioning don't FALL OFF that fast.

Sorry to be talking about you as if you aren't here, shp.
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Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 19:14:02 (EST)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: help needed
Message:
'Also, shp HAS garnered a measure of respect for his honesty and straight forwardness. He did kinda come out swingin', though. I don't even feel compelled to call him sheep any more. He seems like a pretty cool guy. I don't have any delusions about his 'deprogramming.' He's sounds too steeped in mystical and magical
thinking to really come around to the rational and (IMO) real. So be it. Years of conditioning don't FALL OFF that fast.

Sorry to be talking about you as if you aren't here, shp.'

Thanks Gerry, couldn't agree more, saved me some typing again!
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Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 23:50:49 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: you talkin' to me?
Message:
are you talkin' to me?are you talkin' to me?
are you talkin' to me?are you talkin' to me?
hey, what do you feed lab rats on this site
i'm gettin' hungry

one thing i have to agree with you about:

'He seems like a pretty cool guy.'

trust your instincts, unless of course you believe that your instincts were implanted in you by maharaji or aliens or the cia and you can't trust them either...
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 00:15:41 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: you talkin' to me?
Message:
Actually I was talking to Orlando.

Instincts are different from opinions, BTW.

And no, I don't trust the CIA. Which reminds of a TV documentary I saw about the Kennedy assasination. The interviewer was talking to a high level CIA guy about it and asked point blank if the CIA was involved. The spook said emphatically, 'no way' etc, all the time while nodding 'yes' with his head. I was stunned by the admission.
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 00:23:50 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: body language
Message:
yeah, gerry that sort of thing is so cool if you have the eyes
to see it. if you can read people everyone's telling the truth even when they are lying because you can pick it up! becoming like a child doesn't mean being stupid...like the emperor's new clothes, it took the kids to say the simple truth.

and i'd trust my instincts before i'd trust my opinions any day.
say 'survival opinion'....now say 'survival instinct'.
see what i mean?
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 12:49:01 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Years of Conditioning do fall
Message:
off fast. All it takes is the mega tour around this site. It doesn't take one too long to realize the deception. I'm no rocket scientist, and within two sickening hours I was hooked on this place. You guys kindly shed the light on all of my doubts. I if were all tickity boo, I wouldn't have had doubts, would I.

All it takes is a careful look at the lies, and secrecy. When you are ready to stop beating yourself up because you can't realize K nor meet the expectations set down by the Lard and your peers, it vanishes like a big bully that you finally say no to.

Good luck to everyone who is still waffling. If everything were alright with your practise and involvement with M, you wouldn't be reading here to the extent that you are!
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Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 12:29:29 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: right
Message:
also, in the pope's crown are the latin words 'vicar of chirst on earth'...the numeric value of the roman letters is 666...it's also on his ring. and ronald wilson reagan (6 letters in each name) can be rearranged to read 'insane anglo warlord' without losing or repeating a letter. coincidence?

Shp, really. This seems a little far fetched, don't you think?

i look at the 'modern world' and i don't trust the architects who built it because it's falling apart.

I don't trust the architects who built the world, either, because they're all beaurocrats and politicians. In my experience, the only thing they're good for is getting in the way. Blah, pitooey!
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Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 14:48:00 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: wrong (sans irony)
Message:
Jerry, shp, et al:

Re: i look at the 'modern world' and i don't trust the architects who built it because it's falling apart.

False paradigm. The world and it's institutions were not 'created' in the sense you mean, shp. This is such a wrong-headed concept that it's no wonder you are confused and suspicious. You start from the premise that an individual or small committee can have an over-arching design imperitive, and then can act in such a way as to fulfill that intent by imposing it. If that were even remotely possible then tyranny would be not only unavoidable but instantaneous. There is a formal proof of this, BTW. Bottom line: the world is just not like that, and can't be like that, no matter what anyone intends. It can get fucked up, of course, but not that way.

-Scott
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Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 15:20:17 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: scottscottscott
Message:
if you don't think that there are forces at work on earth now that have been around a long time designing what we call societies, cultures and countries, with their own selfish motives at the root, then you are the one who is naive.

example: my wife and i homeschooled our two sons for 4-5 years before we let them back loose back into the system at their request to be with their buddies more. they are now excelling in the public school system btw. when we were first getting started with it, we read and learned about how the public school system in america got started in the first place. basically, it was the industrialists and the ultra-rich who realized that with the industrial revolution and machines and factories came the need for bodies to run the stuff. so they devised a plan to create a system of 'factories' (public schools) that would spit out a 'predictable, controllable workforce' who had the basic skills of reading, writing arithmetic and a historical world view indoctrination that was approved by the dominant social order.
was concentration or creativity taught? no. short periods with pavlovian bells to signal change and you don't want to have to see the man down the hall in the suit, so you kept your nose clean.
did you go to public school in america, scott? if so, does this ring any freudian bells? we have all been hoodwinked by a handful of jerks with money, scott. is has always been thus. and money is not the culprit, but the love of it. your shot.
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Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 17:24:53 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: scottscottscott
Message:
did you go to public school in america, scott? if so, does this ring any freudian bells? we have all been hoodwinked by a handful of jerks with money, scott. is has always been thus. and money is not the culprit, but the love of it. your shot.

shp,

Are you crazy? Henry Ford mass produced cars to make money. Does that mean we've all been brainwashed into wanting to drive places? So what if mass education started with a view to creating a well-trained (i.e. disciplined) work force? Does that mean that anyone who's ever gone to public school is merely a victim?

Your mind seems like an open pit of half-baked, ill-thought and hopelessly naive cliches and dumb ideas. It's as if you hve no sifting mechanism or something. If your kids actually do thrive in school, and I hope they will, they'll learn critical thinking before too long. If you wait around long enough they might have the patience to be able to untie all your knots of ignorance.
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 00:13:42 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: jimjimjim
Message:
henry ford also built a car out of vegetable fiber board (hemp) which could withstand collisions better than steel but was shut down by the steel industry on that one. he never wanted to use a petroleum based engine but was shut down on that one by the oil barons. he was also an anti-semite and supported hitler privately.

you obviously are not knowledgeable on this matter...may i suggest
the short but powerful readings entitled 'dumbing us down' or 'the exhausted school' by john taylor gatto who was the ny state teacher of the year twice, and in one of his award speeches completely reamed and exposed the entire public school system for what it is. yes yes there are good folks embedded in the system who don't have a clue what kind of a beast it is. i think you would admire his position, given yours on this site.

i like you and all that, but sometimes you get kinda sanctimonious
and that's not you...it's kinda of your way of exhibiting culture shock at something you don't know about and can't believe when it hits you between the eyes. jim, humility is not weakness. look inot it before you go off...it's unbecoming of someone with your
obvious sincerity and intelligence. my wife and i homeschooled two sons, one 4 years and the other 5 years. that's a total of 9 years, ok? don't insult yourself or me or my wife by huffing and puffing...it just isn't the ral jim and it makes you look like an ass to anyone else reading this who knows the facts as my wife and i do.

of course a well disciplined workforce is essential and cars are cool...i love to drive. but the public school system went way beyond discipline...i mean, you want to talk about mind control?
anyone who questions the world view as stated by the dominant social order gets their school file flagged and it sticks.

i'm tired. jimmy me lad, if you want the facts i'll type 'em to ya, or you can check out john taylor gatto (i know, here i amadvising you to read a book...what a hypocrite, eh? actually i am giving you a choice, so i'm not so bad)

g'night.
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 01:25:20 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: jimjimjim
Message:
shp,

You miss the point -- again, you mis the point. You need training in point-tracking.

I don't doubt that you taught your kids well in their first few years. So? Where's that get you in terms of your earlier point?

And who gives a fig if Ford wanted to build his first car out of the cigarette papers. There, too, you miss my point.

Now you're sending ME on a reading assignment, teach? After what you said yesterday? Hmm... I gotta think about that one. Anyway, besides that, why don't you just tell me what these guys have to say about the big conspiracy and all that?
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 01:40:25 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: it's simple
Message:
all i'm saying is give peace a chance...
oops! wrong website, sorry.
somebody mentioned lemon and i thought
they said lennon.....

seriously, jim
i am just saying that these early industrialists
herded the general population into 'schools'
just to keep their machines running
not to enlighten anybody.
(they didn't give a 'fig' about an enlightened public)
(i like figs...do you? dried or fresh, i just love 'em!)

i am not a conspriacy freak
i am just acutely aware of the bullshit
that has helped to make this great country
what it is today
and my bullshit acuity
has compelled me to hang here
with you
and check out the scene

so isn't that the real point?

as for the reading assignment, tell you what...
i will call you (collect) and read it to you if you want.

if it wasn't for words, we'd be tight i just know it....
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Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 19:06:48 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: scottscottscott
Message:
shp:

if you don't think that there are forces at work on earth now that have been around a long time designing what we call societies, cultures and countries, with their own selfish motives at the root, then you are the one who is naive.

I don't think there are forces that have been designing societies and cultures and countries for the simple reason that no one knows, or has ever known, how to avoid the law of unintended consequences. That limitation makes the job of designing societies an impossibility, no matter what the motivations are. I certainly don't doubt that people are selfish, but selfishness is not limited to elites.

The system of public education in the US is a product of industrialization, but the union movement (including the IWW), and the agrarian reformers in the northern tier of states, all had as much to do with that evolution as the elite groups. But, if you had studied history rather than simply renewing your ideological subscription you'd know that.

It's a lot easier to believe the world is the result of a conspiratorial design than to take responsibility for the dauntingly complex nature of human societies, and to act accordingly.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 00:18:44 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: your honor, i gotta pee
Message:
i believe in individual empowerment
i am not a conspriacy nut
there just happen to be alot of them out there
and i am aware of them
and hey! who said i'm paranoid?????
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 02:19:27 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: you're excused
Message:
shp:

Re: there just happen to be alot of them out there
and i am aware of them


I don't think you are atypical, unfortunately. You have a lot of company. I'm not ridiculing you, either. I just think you're wrong, and not even very discerning regarding the things you are right about. While you say you believe in individual empowerment I have to point out that a population of individuals with the capacity for exercising power and wisdom would be incompatible with your view of the world. What you are saying is that we have all been duped, for millennia, by slow-witted people of ill-intent. Those are not the best qualities for a system based on the 'wisdom of the people.'

-Scott
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Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 19:58:17 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: wrong (sans irony)
Message:
You start from the premise that an individual or small committee can have an over-arching design imperitive, and then can act in such a way as to fulfill that intent by imposing it. If that were even remotely possible then tyranny would be not only unavoidable but instantaneous.

Scott, if you worked where I do you'd be singing a different tune within a week, and I don't think it's much different anywhere else. Bureacracy and politics rule. As long as you're one of the boys, you don't have to know shit from shynola. You just have to know how to kiss ass real well. Then you get to call the shots no matter how stupid you are. I think the state of the world speaks for itself. Brown nosed assholes are running it. You have to be very naive not to recognize this.
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Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 23:41:37 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: wrong (sans irony)
Message:
Jerry:

Re: Bureacracy and politics rule. As long as you're one of the boys, you don't have to know shit from shynola. You just have to know how to kiss ass real well. Then you get to call the shots no matter how stupid you are. I think the state of the world speaks for itself. Brown nosed assholes are running it.

Are you in real estate or something? Clearly, unqualified people make decisions that determine the opportunities of others. There are elites and insiders, and life is not fair. But that is hardly the same thing as a grand conspiracy. And, that happens less in the US than in most places, because the social political institutions were designed to accomodate cross-cutting interests. The system was designed to work even if the lowest common denominator is in charge (as they often are). You CAN be a designer if you have a generically accurate perspective about what motivates people, and groups, as James Madison did. But, even there, he had to convince others he was right, and still only won by a narrow margin.

BTW, I'm fairly close to the governing elites, and from where I sit some of them are very clever, selfless, and dedicated. Pat Moynihan, for instance. There was a much-renowned biographer of Thomas Jefferson who was acosted by one of Jefferson's admirers, saying: 'You are just pigeon droppings on Jefferson's statue.' 'Madame,' he replied... 'I know I'm not shit, but it's even more important for you to discover that Thomas Jefferson is not a statue.'

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 10:16:54 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: wrong (sans irony)
Message:
Are you in real estate or something?

I was just about to take a sip out of my coffee when I read this line. Fortunately, I didn't or I would have laughed it all over my keyboard. Good one, Scott. No, I am not in real estate.

OK, maybe there is no nationwide conspiracy being executed by a committe of the priviliged elite. I wouldn't know. But at that 'lowest common denominator' level you're talking about (I'm going to assume this is management in all it's shapes and forms since you didn't specify) it's dog eat dog, and in my experience, they are DEFINITELY co-conspirators. If you're not on their team, you're the enemy. It's that cut and dry. They're also quite oppressive and unfair to those they are in charge of. Maybe you brush shoulders with the governing elite but I don't, although I do know the nephew of James Sweeney who got the job of controlling the AFL-CIO's pension plan. What were his qualifications? Why, he was the nephew of the President, of course. But this is surely an isolated incident, right?
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 11:52:53 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: wrong (sans irony)
Message:
Jerry:

Re: Maybe you brush shoulders with the governing elite but I don't, although I do know the nephew of James Sweeney who got the job of controlling the AFL-CIO's pension plan. What were his qualifications? Why, he was the nephew of the President, of course. But this is surely an isolated incident, right?

You ought to read a book called Union Democracy: The Internal Politics of the International Typographical Union. There are conditions under which unions are not oligarchical, although it is rare. Unfortunately the technological advance that you and I are using at the moment spelled the demise of the ITU. It is a lesson, however. There is a movement within the Teamsters that wants to see something like what the ITU exemplified. It may or may not have a chance.

-Scott
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Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 15:12:32 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: verstehen
Message:
shp:

Re: all the brilliant men who came up with that numeric forula you showed me all subscribed to a mindset that has evolved into a universal mark on all goods bought and sold and must be there for transactions to occur....universal price code, which fulfills a prophecy from john's eye-opening meditations he had in his final days on the isle of patmos 2000 years ago.

You are entitled to believe whatever you like about this, but there is a real issue as to whether John was prophetic or merely traditional. Republic and Revelation are so similar that a coincidence is simply not possible. You are free to weave this into your conspiracy theory, but the simpler explanation works, and a global epoch-spanning conspiracy seems an unnecessary elaboration. John's 'eye opening meditations' were almost certainly trance-induced. Whether that validates them or not is up to you. I personally, don't think there is any mystical significance to the perfect number series, and the social theory that was connected with it has been clearly proven to be invalid. Nonetheless, it has a certain literary depth and reveals something profound about human nature.

-Scott
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Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 15:24:46 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: verstehen
Message:
what does verstehen mean?
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Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 18:47:03 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: verstehen
Message:
shp:

'verstehen' is the German word for 'understanding' or 'comprehension,' but it is also a method created by Max Weber to analyse social conditions, political systems, etc. Basically, it says that you not only have to defend a connection between social events or acts, but have to demonstrate the human motivations for each event in the historical series. Unless people are insane they have some logical motivation for doing what they do, or will do, that is consistent with the circumstances that lead to the action. I can think of no human motivation that would connect the dots in your grand theories about epoch-spanning conspiracies that would, for instance, compare with Weber's explanation linking the spirit of capitalism to the protestant ethic and the doctrine of predestination.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 00:30:36 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: geshundtheit
Message:
i just have this feeling that in every generation there have been greedy assholes who carry on the traditions of their predecessors and some of these characters are in families that go way way back, teaching their young that humanity is theirs to rule with gold and fear. you want me to draw you a timeline?

by the same token, there are good and decent folks who do the same. that's all i was saying.
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 02:34:31 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: geshundtheit
Message:
shp:

i just have this feeling that in every generation there have been greedy assholes who carry on the traditions of their predecessors and some of these characters are in families that go way way back, teaching their young that humanity is theirs to rule with gold and fear. you want me to draw you a timeline?

Bottom line... Almost none of the people responsible for founding this country belonged to any of the old aristocratic families of Europe. Some, like Tocqueville, were observers however. Social mobility is a measure of the extent that people move from lower to upper socio-economic classes and vice versa. That is empirical, and has always been greater here in the US than elsewhere. In general it has been greater in countries that were once British colonies, and social mobility has always been greater in Britain than on the continent. I have known royalty who couldn't afford a place to live. But, what the heck... let's see your timeline. Why not?

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 07:36:39 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: i hate timelines
Message:
don't make me do this scottie, please.
take a gander at 'isle of man' keyword
just for starters, linked to 'cashless society'

then try rockefeller, carnegie, dupont.
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 12:15:41 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: i hate timelines
Message:
shp:

Re: then try rockefeller, carnegie, dupont.

I can't document R & D, but know for a fact that Carnegie started as a penniless immigrant. Do you know your proving the opposite of your thesis? Does that sink in, at all? Listen, I have grown tired of this. It makes no sense to discuss this stuff with you. Your critical faculties abondoned you long ago. Believe what you like.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 12:45:04 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: drool....
Message:
gee, scott thanks for the darshan and all your patience
sorry i disappointed ya.

starting out as a penniless immigrant and then having buildings and foundations named after you, plus about 75c will get you a cup of coffee or herbal tea in my cafe. these guys did alot of 'good'
while they were entrenching themselves in their empires. one preceeded the other for sure. and carnegie was one of the public school architects which i have direct empirical knowledge about.

peace

ps do you realize how condescending and ignorant you sounded at the same time on your last post? when i'm busted i back off...why don't you?
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 16:06:49 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Carnegie
Message:
Scott, I once saw a special on Carnegie. I can't remember the details but it wasn't a pretty picture. The man was a monster. The way he treated his workers was criminal. He literally killed them when they went on strike because of intolerable working conditions. He may have started out a penniless immigrant but that doesn't mean he was a man of scruples. He wasn't. He was a tyrant.
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 17:30:12 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Carnegie
Message:
Jerry:

Re: Scott, I once saw a special on Carnegie. I can't remember the details but it wasn't a pretty picture. The man was a monster. The way he treated his workers was criminal. He literally killed them when they went on strike because of intolerable working conditions. He may have started out a penniless immigrant but that doesn't mean he was a man of scruples. He wasn't. He was a tyrant.

Well, I wouldn't dispute that seriously, but it was not quite so one-sided. Like Hurst, he started out as a populist, and was always haunted by the image of his father who was a staunch populist. He was another 'man of vast contraditictions.' Nonetheless, I don't think he's a very good example of the thesis that the world has, for generations, been run by a few related families, or by a familial conspiracy. This seems to be one of shp's assertions, although he switches horses a lot. I can't quite figure out what he's talking about, actually. He can't be Marxist since he doesn't appear to know what a social class is. (Groucho had a better handle on this than Harpo, BTW.)

-Scott
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Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 19:07:48 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Scott T.
Subject: What do you mean by 'trance'?
Message:
I'm not being provocative here, Scott, but people tend to use the word 'trance' quite freely as if there were some kind of consensus on what the word actually means. The so-called 'trance state' is central to the subject of the doctorate I have just started (hypnosis).

I have yet to be convinced there is such a state - at least in neurophysiological terms, when dealing with religious or hypnotic activities - though research may yet prove otherwise.

'Trance', though, is also used to describe various drug-induced or psychotic/schizophrenic episodes which do reflect underlying brain changes, and might explain many of the 'visions' seen by saints and mystics. (I recommend people read Oliver Sacks, if they're interested in this kind of stuff.)

I just wondered in which sense were you using the word?
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Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 19:30:12 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: What do you mean by 'trance'?
Message:
Nigel:

A number of years ago I had a prophetic experience and began to try to figure out what had happened. My reading took me to a discussion of trance states, although I can no longer recall the specific source. Basically the idea was that a trance is induced by a set of circumstances where the subject is severely circumscribed or where freedom of movement or action has severe limits, but within those boundaries almost anything goes. That, to me, describes not only my own situation, but the conditions for John on Patmos. I don't know anything about the use of drugs but (speculating) that could be a component of enhancing the sense of freedom within the zone of confinement.

-Scott
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Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 20:01:15 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Scott T.
Subject: What do you mean 'prophetic'?
Message:
Scott:

Do you mean you foresaw something that subsequently came true, or it somehow 'felt' prophetic? Care to elaborate?
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Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 23:21:05 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: What do you mean 'prophetic'?
Message:
Nigel:

It 'felt' prophetic. Sort of apocalyptic, or it may have been symbolic. I don't know. What I'm convinced of is that there is a lot of the present in most so-called prophetic revelations, and probably not very much of the future. Prophecy reveals something about us, but it only says something about future events to the extent that we (by our beliefs, convictions and flaws) determine them. I think people who blindly believe in prophecy are two steps removed from reality. The prophet is hypersensitive, closer than most to something painful, some basic discontinuity... and usually only misreads the implications of what he or she sees. Just a personal opinion.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 00:48:54 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: What do you mean 'prophetic'?
Message:
Scott and Nigel, in a biblical context, 'prophetic truths' or 'prophecy' are often a means of calling people to repentence; it isn't the same as telling the future. The prophecies of John on Patmos were a means of calling the Church of the late first and early second century into the 'party line' of the Johannine community. The imagery used made a lot of sense in their historical, political, and social context, but makes no sense in ours. I personally don't believe that the author of the Revelation or Apocalypse of St. John actually experienced any visions or that any trance was involved; I believe that he was trying to make a point by using the apocalyptic imagery that was meaningful to his community. The word 'apocalypse' is 'apocalypto' is Koinonia Greek and means 'reveal, disclose, bring to light.' John was making a point regarding the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple and how that affected the more Jewish elements of the church. It was also a means of giving hope to those being persecuted, and to remind the church that persecution could return. I don't think that it really involved any actual visions or trances; using the apocalyptic imagery was a means of giving his position authority, just like when the premies and M and the Instructors quote the Bible and Judaic and Christian ideas to give K legitimacy and authority.
Here endeth the Rant.
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 01:02:22 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: authority
Message:
hey mickey,

ain't it a rush to get all this respect from some folks on this site and the assumption that you have a handle on spiritual knowledge because you are a student of it?

remember paul? he had his head into the books too. and what happened to him? got knocked off his horse by chirst in a ball of light or his own conscience or somethng like that, was blinded, and for 14 years hung out with ananias who unlearned him all the book stuff and helped him open his heart to the christ. tell our buds on the site about paul's conversion, mickey...explain to them how all paul's booklearning had to be shucked for him to know god. please?

because you know what? same holds true today...booklearning is cool for historical purposes and timeline charts and homework and degrees, but it doesn't do anything to attain the experience we all want. tell 'em about the samaritan too while you are at it.
i love ya mickey.
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 01:34:20 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: authority
Message:
shp, Paul did not forget his book knowledge; he quoted scriptures and hymns all the time. He applied soteriological imagery from the Hebrew scriptures in his writings all the time, and he incorporated Hellenistic concepts. He didn't become some ignorant anti-intellectual. Look, my purpose on this site is not to convert; I am interested in correcting mis-conceptions and misunderstandings that people have about Christianity, especially since the name 'Christian' has been hi-jacked by the Religious Right. I don't claim to have a handle on 'spiritual knowledge,' but I do know about early church history, I do know about theology, and I do know about other religions, too. The information that I gather from your posts leads me to think that you are more interested in esoteric knowledge, in a spiritual elitism similar to that of the so-called Gnostics. You want to know that which is hidden from the many, IMHO, although I also realise that I may be misreading you. I am more interested in didactics and in book knowledge and I won't apologise for that. I already spent my time in the search of spiritual gnosis and found that I was wasting my time. I experience God in family and community, even this forum community. You and I are not going to agree on these matters.
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 01:50:32 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: we both want it all
Message:
i think you and i both want the book knowledge, the community spirit and love and the hidden knowledge as well. i believe it is in our blood and souls to want it all. i respect your knowledge and understanding of historical events, but i feel that those event were spawned in and by the 'hidden' as you call them, causes.

i like and respect you and alot of the folks on this site. sometimes we misread each other in this medium. know that.

and i never said that paul became an anti-intellectual. i am saying that he had to unload that, take in the new information about christ, interpolate that into his booklearning, and let the holy spirit in him along with his intellect create the scriptual references he used after his conversion. he wasn't a parrot anymore. that's what i was saying.

btw, type in the keywords 'holy order of mans' in answer to an old unanswered question you had for me a while ago.
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 12:01:34 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Mike, you're being paiged
Message:
shp:

Re: btw, type in the keywords 'holy order of mans' in answer to an old unanswered question you had for me a while ago.

I'm not certain, but somewhere in the far reaches of my deep neurons (and the Quality Pie Shop) I seem to recall that Mike has some direct experience with this group. You might ask him what he knows.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 15:49:52 (EST)
From: Gnostic Gnome
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Mike, you're being paiged
Message:
Scott: I think shp is referring to your question as to his affiliations. Yes, you were quite correct in your rememberances, as well. I liked all organizations with two 'O' in the middle (e.g. HOOM, EOOM, etc). Maybe 'cause I wore glasses.... he he he.
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 08:55:48 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: 'prophetic'
Message:
Michael:

Re: I personally don't believe that the author of the Revelation or Apocalypse of St. John actually experienced any visions or that any trance was involved; I believe that he was trying to make a point by using the apocalyptic imagery that was meaningful to his community.

It seems fruitless to get into a disagreement about what John's subjective state was. I agree with you about the purpose of prophecy and was merely pointing out that the conditions for trance were present. That would mean his 'visions' had all the objectives you mention, but were not quite as detached as your scenario implies. I don't really know, of course. Just going on my own rather idiosyncratic experience.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 09:33:11 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Scott T., mickey
Subject: row row row
Message:
row row row your boat
gently down the stream
merrily merrily merrily merrily
life is but a dream

is the zen guy asleep dreaming he is a butterfly
and wakes up
or is it the butterfly dreaming it is a zen master

trance shmance
if it holds water
it's a cup

please read between the pixels guys
i am writing kinda shorthand due to time
but am sincere and engaged in this conversation
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 10:51:50 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: pixels pixels pixels
Message:
shp:

trance shmance
if it holds water
it's a cup

please read between the pixels guys
i am writing kinda shorthand due to time
but am sincere and engaged in this conversation


If what holds water? What the hell are you talking about? The point we have made, ad nauseum, is that your interpretations do not hold water. If it's not a cup, it's a sieve.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 00:38:29 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: did somebody say drugs?
Message:
why in god's name (excuse the expression)
do you differentiate between a plant or
mushroom to clear the head and a cup of
peppermint tea to soothe the stomach?

this is an artificial division of nature
created by uptight civilizations
who were so off center they were afraid
to go inside and take the ride
on a plant or anything else?

just like someone with a broken bone
and someone with a broken mind
would get looked at very differently
by a society that knew how to set a bone
but was ignorant of mental disease.

you all sound pretty smart sometimes
except at times like these.
i don't advocate 'drugs'
and i don't condemn them

nothing is evil unto itself
but for what mankind makes use of it

b'bye
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Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 21:23:02 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: oooohhhhh! this is interesting
Message:
I have yet to be convinced there is such a state - at least in neurophysiological terms, when dealing with religious or hypnotic activities - though research may yet prove otherwise.

Nigel, sorry, but this sentence does not compute.

Let me try to understand:

No such state of hypnosis when dealing with religious or hypnotic activities. Huh?

I can't believe you don't 'believe' there is a state of hypnosis. That's like saying there's no Texas. This blows me away. What IS happening to people in these 'so-called trances' then? Maybe we just need a new word to describe it. Good luck on you Ph.D proving there is no such thing as hypnosis. ay yi yi No wonder you want to debunk NLP.

Now sit back and close your eyes and think of time when you felt really, really relaxed and wooonderful...

OK, ok, now come back to full awareness and TALK to me about this.
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Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 18:17:20 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: right
Message:
shp, 666 is a reference to Nero and his persecutions. Even the pagans feared his return, and there was a prophecy that he would return from the dead. The book of Revelations most likely is John's way of dealing with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, a sure sign of the end for people whose lives were centered around that city. You know, every era is the end of the world to someone. My source is 'Anti-Christ: Two Thousand Years of the Human Fascination With Evil' by Bernard McGinn. HarperSanFrancisco. 1994.
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Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 19:12:04 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: right
Message:
Michael:

666 is a reference to Nero and his persecutions. Even the pagans feared his return, and there was a prophecy that he would return from the dead. The book of Revelations most likely is John's way of dealing with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple

That is a very coherent and convincing theory, especially in light of the concept that the 666 symbolism represents the inevitability of tyranny, a powerful and understandable conviction in the ancient world.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 00:52:04 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: it ain't over...
Message:
ever hear the phrase 'history repeats itself'?
don't let the technology fool ya, the same thing is going on
over and over and over and over and over and over and over.
we are not out of the woods yet.

people essentially have not changed.
so the tyranny gets its turn until the loop is snapped
or kali yuga fades out and sat yuga fully manifests
or whatever you want to call it

get it?
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 00:46:43 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: right
Message:
hey mick, good to hear ya!

well, it seems that ol' slugger number 666 is a designated hitter again this time around, too, if ya check out the upc codes, the microchip intended for human implantation (keyword 'mark of the beast'), the pope's crown, etc. i respect your learning, but it takes more than that to see it coming at you here and now...hindsight is 20/20, and the books have been written for our
edification. i am talking about NOW. pick your head up out of your scrolls and sniff the air, man.

i've seen tornadoes on tv and i've been in one.
big difference.
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 00:56:07 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: right
Message:
Hi shp. I was raised in a church that was obsessed with the Second Coming and the 666 stuff and saw the Anti-Christ around every corner. I spent part of my childhood fearing that the Rapture would happen and I would be left behind. This stuff made me fair game for The Lord of the Universe. I find the obsession with Anti-Christ and 666 to be harmful and not helpful to bringing about the Reign of God. I don't see that worrying about microchips in and the Mark of the Beast helps one feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, clothe the naked, shelter the homeless, visit the sick and the prisoner, and welcome the stranger. The eschaton is always around the corner, and people have spent too much time ignoring important things and helping others while worrying about Anti-Christ. The true spirit of Anti-Christ is apathy and the neglect of those in need.
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 01:07:54 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: right
Message:
i agree mickey. so why doesn't everyone on the ex-premie site take all this energy spent typing and go out and do good in the world? because you are still fighting someone you think is an antichrist.

i wasn't harping on the 666 thing...just mentioned it in passing and got all this heavy feedback. sorry, didn't mean to hassle or awaken any bad memories from anyone's childhood - really.

it's good to know what's going on out there however......
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 10:09:45 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: mickey
Subject: can we look at this?
Message:
you know the parable about the feast
and the invited guests didn't come
so the king sent out messengers
to invite the good and the bad
the rich and the poor
from the highways and byways
to fill the king's table

it still rubs me funny when M says
you can be good or bad in your life
your thirst can still be quenched
i was indoctrinated in my youth
that you had to be 'good' to get
the goodies
it seems that all bets are off now

maybe we are livng in a time
when none of our guages work
like the bermuda triangle
and we just have to guide on love alone
i am no expert on the books
but i am good at reading between the lines

the letter kills
the spirit gives life
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 10:22:10 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: to all - just something nice
Message:
leon russell, what a songwriter:

you taught me precious freedom
of a truth withholding nothing
you came out in front when i was hiding
but now i'm so much better
if my words don't come together
listen to the meoldy of my love in there
shining...

(chorus)
'cause i love you in a place
where's there's no space and time
i love you for my life you are a friend of mine
and when my life is over
remember when we were together
we were alone and i was singin' this song to you
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 15:59:50 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: can we look at this?
Message:
shp: 'All bets are off?' By whose reckoning? According to whom are all bets off? Who is the authority that states 'all bets are off?' Do you get my drift? YOU are assuming that M has the authority to down-all-bets. Are you sure about this? You better THINK about it, a bit.
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 00:48:19 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: can we look at this?
Message:
i merely presented a scenario...didn't you ever watch the twilight zone? sometimes it was freaky and sometimes it was funny and sometimes it was happy and sometimes it was sad.

i did not imply that m decided all bets were off, but that he as a player got a chance to do this gig any way he saw fit, regardless of our judgements or criticisms. just a scenario, get it?

you jump too quickly, and i feel you assume that because i haven't burned my photos of m yet, i'm without reason or common sense.
you need to learn patience and compassion and the art of listening if you ever want to help anybody. re-read my post...
did i say that he downed all bets?
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 00:59:58 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: katie,,mike, mickey...
Subject: chill, people
Message:
1) if someone says they are the lord and they are not and they go around the world acting like they are, then they are an antichrist figure...not necessarily the big one.

2) you don't have to be a weatherman to know which way the wind blows...the shit is going to hit the fan, but that is no cause for fear or alarm if you have faith in something stronger than the negative forces at work on the planet right now.

3) i think communication is good and therefore i agree with you katie that communication here on this site is doing good on some level. i only brought up the thing about doing charitable work in the world because mickey brought it up in an earlier post, and i was replying to him.

4) btw, how can any subject be 'off-topic' when you say on your title page 'anything and everything'?
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 12:55:14 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: chill, people
Message:
Dear shp - I won't address all your points, but here's a few replies:
You wrote:
if someone says they are the lord and they are not and they go around the world acting like they are, then they are an antichrist figure...not necessarily the big one.

I disagree - I think this is only if you believe that Christ was the lord (or one of them).

i think communication is good and therefore i agree with you katie that communication here on this site is doing good on some level. i only brought up the thing about doing charitable work in the world because mickey brought it up in an earlier post, and i was replying to him.

Thanks for saying that. I HAVE seen people get tangible benefit from this site - thus it could be classified as charitable work (although I don't like the connotations of the word charity). That's what keeps Brian and me going. It's not an easy job at times.

BTW, I have met Mickey in person and he is a great guy (and also very funny). I had to laugh when someone referred to him as a 'member of the clergy'. I know he is, technically, but he's not your typical clergyman by a long shot.

You also asked:
btw, how can any subject be 'off-topic' when you say on your title page 'anything and everything'?

Well, it really says 'anything and everything about Maharaji and his followers'. We could argue semantics here, but the reason I refer to posts as off-topic is that some newer people who find the site have commented that they were desperately seeking information on people's experiences with Maharaji and got frustrated reading through all the other stuff (whether it might be tangentally related or not.)

I post plenty of stuff that I consider to be off topic, but there are certain topics that I prefer to discuss in depth elsewhere (via group e-mails, etc.). This is because many of the people on the site aren't interested in those topics, or because they are too personal for me to post publically.

Also, we archive the posts. We used to archive EVERYTHING, but we've started trying to cut out the off-topic threads before we archive to save on disk space. The alternative is not archiving at all.

Take care,
Katie
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 10:43:43 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: can we look at this?
Message:
shp: Actually, I think you were right on the money, because of M's attitude that 'anything goes.' THAT IS the same as saying that all bets are off. At one time, he and his mahatmas said that you 'didn't have to change your religion,' but if you accept the anything-goes attitude, you have abandoned it. The question to you was more rhetorical than anything else. What I want to know is, 'by what authority' does he say anything goes? This isn't really a question specifically designed for you, shp. It is intended to make premies THINK. If M doesn't really believe he's god and never intended for anyone else to think so, then who in the heck gave him the authority to say or intimate that 'anything goes' or 'all bets are off?' That was my point (somewhat obscure, it may be).
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 11:09:35 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: can we look at this?
Message:
from where i am sitting, the only person who can truly say 'all bets are off' and have it stick is the guy who owns the casino, or one of his/her agents such as the pit boss, the dealer, etc.
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 15:26:55 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: right/apocalyptic thinking
Message:
i agree mickey. so why doesn't everyone on the ex-premie site take all this energy spent typing and go out and do good in the world? because you are still fighting someone you think is an antichrist.

Dear shp - two comments and on the above statement, plus my thoughts about the apocalypse:

- I think a lot of the energy spent typing on this site DOES do good in the world. As I've said before, I wouldn't be here if I didn't think this.

- I don't think that Maharaji is the anti-christ. For one thing, I don't believe in the anti-christ, but if I did, Maharaji would be small potatoes - I think his influence on the world as a whole is insignificant.

Finally, I also wanted to comment on apocalyptic thinking. I was sort of raised with this type of thinking - my dad worked for the Pentagon during the 1960's and we thought we were going to get blown up any minute. My dad was slightly paranoid, and he was a survivalist - we had land in the country stocked with stuff we might need in case of nuclear war. Then when I got into the hippie culture in the early 1970's, apocalyptic thinking was rampant - I believed that the world as we know it was going to self-destruct at any minute. Becoming a premie did not help at all with this type of thinking - it was encouraged there as well.

It took me YEARS - I would say twenty years - to get over this type of thinking, and I'm still plagued by it at times. It's caused me a lot of problems - I have a lot of problems thinking beyond the present moment, and I tend to have this instinctive fear that something terrible is going to happen. However, I finally realized that I'd spent 20 years (in which NONE of the apocalyptic prophecies predicted for that period came true) worrying about it, and that thinking about it was probably causing me more pain than the supposed apocalypse would itself. I think this type of thinking paralyzes and scares people - at least it paralyzed and frightened me - and it makes it very hard to get on with your life.

Regards,
Katie
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 01:30:22 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: katie, the whole enchilada
Message:
sorry if i scared you with the stuff about apocalyptic events.
but as gently as i can say it, don't be surprised if the shit hits the fan in our lifetime. by the same token, don't be surprised if it doesn't. i am not fixated on hemp, the apocalypse, the order, gaskin, maharaji, or anything...but this site is starting to grow on me!! is there an ex-ex-premie site yet for folks who want to break this habit with stuff like macrame lessons?
(i really hope you can tell i am funnin' ya and not being mean)
every time i bring up a subject to dialog about or make a point on this site, somebody comes along and tries to stick an avery label on me..i wish they wouldn't. we are all multi-faceted and if we all compared notes, we'd all probably see that we have had a rather wide range of experiences in our short lives, as if alot was being crammed into a little timeframe, more than in previous generations.

i accept you and all here as fellow human beings and we all want to have fulfilling and happy lives, and we are communicating.
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 11:35:51 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: katie, the whole enchilada
Message:
Hey shp -
As regards to being hooked on this site - several people have mentioned that. No, we haven't set up a support group yet :)

I really wasn't trying to label you (I can see that you are somewhat mercurial - and this is not an insult.) I just wanted to make comments on a few things you said, and also relate my experiences with apocalyptic thinking. As Mickey said, I think it can be harmful if you don't keep in in perspective. Sure, it is possible that the apocalypse may come in our lifetime, and you didn't really scare me by talking about it. My problem was that I thought TOO much about it. I've told about my dad's thoughts about it in the post above - it IS hard to be raised with that fear (Mickey also said this.)

I've found that most of the people on this site are quite multi-faceted and can't be labelled very well - I've been lucky enough to meet some of them in person, and have has a lot of e-mail correspondence with various people. I am interested and/or have experienced many things that I don't discuss on this site because either people are not interested, or it detracts from the general topic of discussion. I don't mean that it's not OK to talk about these things, but that's the way I've chosen to do it.

Regards,
Katie
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 15:55:34 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Absolutely RIGHT!
Message:
Mickey: That was as right-on-the-money as I've ever heard it said. It's really nice hearing it straight from the clergy, too!
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 00:14:47 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: Another UK question
Message:
I'm trying to find some information on whether Maharaji owns a house in Lower Kingswood, Surrey. Anyone having any information about this, and any details on the house, please email me or post it here.
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 01:05:06 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Another UK question
Message:
His 'residence; IS in Lower Kingswood (Stubbs lane).
I don't know whether he actually owns it or not. I would think by now he probably does. But of course this all top secret so don't tell anyone will you.
About 10 years ago when there problems with payments, I had the privilage of selling my video machine so I could help make payments on his residence......only I don't remember which one. We were told that he might lose his house.
I do remember that premie(Robbie Wilks) who came round and showed us a special video of prempal at home. This was the fund raising technique.

Ezcuse me now, I really have to go and throw up.
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 03:11:38 (EST)
From: Barney
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Another UK question
Message:
I had the privilage of selling my video machine so I could help make payments on his residence......only I don't remember which one.

How many video machines did you have? And you sold one?

Just kidding.

We all gave up so much, so many times.
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 08:33:03 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Barney
Subject: Another UK question
Message:
I meant that i didn't know which residence we were paying for :>)
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 23:33:33 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Jethro
Subject: Another question answered
Message:
Dear Jethro,
You are the man from England that I confused with Jerry, the, as it turns our, American from NYC! Jethro sounds very American to me, thus the mix up in my mind! I haven't been able to think of why I thought Jerry was from England and now I know.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 11:31:14 (EST)
From: Barbara
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Another UK question
Message:
Yes. He most certainly does (as well as in other parts of the world). It is just outside Reigate. Why a man needs so many houses and why premies are happy to pay for them I fail to understand.

There is quite a lot of activity been going on in the UK over the last couple of years trying to find him another house but under the guise of a knowledge centre. A limited company has been set up to own the property (this is likely to be ultimately owned overseas via the Geneva based foundation (very top secret) but no prize for guessing who it all belongs to really. Yoram Weiss has been in Europe quite a lot over the last couple of months checking up on how the search is all going and the drone bees have been furiously searching.

The other activity will be a live satellite .broadcast from Los Angeles by M on Saturday Decembe 98.
The idea is that the premies will be able to eventually buy M an even more expensive toy in the form of his own satelitte station but this is some way off. The costs of the satellite upload and downloads around the world have had to be paid for in advance and they are high. Yoram Weiss and others have set a price at £25 for the UK in an attempt to try to make it profitable. The planning has gone pear shaped and it has not yet been announced even though it will be broadcast in one weeks time. Things are becoming very desperate.
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Date: Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 18:48:29 (EST)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Barbara
Subject: Another UK question
Message:
Nice one.
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 14:01:05 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Barbara
Subject: The search for new UK house
Message:
Thanks, Barbara. As for Maharaji wanting a new place - surely he'll downscale his housing demands... Yeah, that's it! He's trying to lift the financial burden off of his devoted followers. What a guy!

Besides, what with him coming out in favor of the net (and steering people here in the process), surely he recognizes what any OTHER fool would see. Premies are going to be putting more of 'his' money into computers, online access charges, software, faster modems, software for the kids, a second phone line, another computer for the kids, etc. Things might get a bit tight in MaharajiLand...
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 23:15:47 (EST)
From: Jane
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Love
Message:
To everyone

You're missing the point. The feeling is, as you know, within you! This incredible and perfect energy is within you, and it is for you and you alone, to contact and feel it. And whatever you believe, it does not change anything - the love remains what it is . And whatever it is called, be it meditation or practice - what difference does it make to the experience? Ask yourself that.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 23:21:24 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jane
Subject: Love
Message:
It makes a lot of difference if the so-called giver of the experience is being worshipped by other human beings and is living greedily off of those human beings.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 23:36:27 (EST)
From: Jane
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Love
Message:
Go inside and feel this love - there is nothing like it.
Try it - it won't cost you anything - just to go inside and bathe in that feeling!
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 23:45:43 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jane
Subject: Love
Message:
Jane, honey, go inside your brain and use a thinking process to figure out what we are talking about here.

I feel a lot of love daily. That's not what we're talking about here. We're having a DISCUSSION. The brain God gave you is a terrible thing to wate
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 23:47:10 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jane
Subject: meant to say 'waste' (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 00:21:53 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: Jane
Subject: feeeeliinngggs!
Message:
Feelings are one thing- you definition of what they are, what they mean, and where they come from may be something else. Thankyou sergio mendes.
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 05:33:20 (EST)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Jane
Subject: Love
Message:
How comes I can still have the experience even though I think 'he's' full of shit.
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 08:45:15 (EST)
From: srb
Email: None
To: Jane
Subject: perhaps you are overlooking?
Message:
Of course it doesn't matter if someone claims to be god
and isn't.

It doesn't matter that he cheats on his wife without her
permission.

It doesn't matter if people were bullied into giving up
thier careers, families, time and energy to only focus on
and serve the lord of the universe when he wasn't
that at all.

I doesn't matter that you are now stuck in a situation where
if you want to know anything about life and reality you
only have the option of his videos because HE is the
'master' of life.
If he has it wrong, YOU have it wrong.

Of course it doesn't matter WHAT his behaviours have been
because 'the master' is beyond your comprehension
and all he does is love love love.

All that matters is the breath is what is always has been
before he hijacked it and made his fake lord of the universe/
master of life fake show.
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 11:36:35 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: srb & Jane
Subject: perhaps you are overlooking?
Message:
Try this: develope a long term illness that leaves you weak and exhausted all the time and at the same time have a family with three children who you're responsible for, two aging step parents who are also ill and infirm and then try to run a business on top of that in order to get the money to support everyone.

Then come back and tell me what love is. In such circumatances, Maharaji and his knowledge becomes an irrelevance because daily you are trying to survive and help others survive. And yet love is there and if you can see love in the worst situations, you're making some headway in life. Love is the most important thing we have and which we can give. You cannot 'practise' this because it's either there or not there.
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 12:06:30 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Right on the money Sir
Message:
Sir: I've always believed (and experienced) that love is NOT just a feeling, it's an ACTION, too. No ACTION, no love.... period! Going inside and just sitting there in a supposed state of 'love' isn't love at all.... At least it isn't according to any common definition of what it is; including the BIBLE, itself. In the bible (which premies are so quick to quote) it says what love is and how it 'manifests' itself. It is referred to again and again as an action, not just some nebulous feeling and stupid grin. So far, I've seen no REAL MANIFESTATION forthcoming from M's organization, therefore I have to assume that what they are 'feeling' isn't love, at all. The proof is in the pudding...

YOU, on the other hand, appear to manifesting it quite nicely. Therefore, I MUST assume that you are truely experiencing it. (IMHO, of course).
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 15:52:58 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Mike/Sir D
Subject: Right on the money Sir
Message:
RIght on, both of you fine brothers. Even if you are not 'feeling' love all the time Sir D., you are dealing with life realistically as a grown up man and not shoving your head in the sand.
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 16:18:39 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Excellent, Sir D
Message:
Love is the most important thing we have and which we can give. You cannot 'practise' this because it's either there or not there.

Brilliantly stated. Whenever I hear premies gushing left and right about love, love, love, it's so refreshing to see someone come along and put it in perspective as you just did.
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 13:17:32 (EST)
From: Tarzan
Email: None
To: Jane
Subject: Love
Message:
: O AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA (Tarzan's Jungle Yell)
cough, cough, sputter, sputter...
Oh now I've got a wedgie in my loincloth, dammit.
: (
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 16:24:16 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Tarzan
Subject: LOL
Message:
What did you do to Jane, Tarzan? She's talking crazy. I think you need to spend more time with her and less with Cheetah.
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 13:55:30 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jane
Subject: Ask yourself....
Message:
Jane: What IS love? Is it a static 'feeling' that just comes and plasters a silly grin on your face? Or, is it ACTION? Let me put it another way, depending upon your belief system: If this universe were actually 'created' by god, and god IS love, then love is NOT STATIC. If that is true, then it isn't 'just a feeling,' it's a creative force that, if you were supposedly really experiencing it, would IMPEL you to DO, to ACT. You wouldn't be able to 'just sit and meditate,' you would have a NEED to ACT! If it's the ultimate creative 'energy' then what in the heck do you think that energy does... just sit around and meditate on itself?

Gimme a break, by ANY known standard (including the bible definition of love), you may be experiencing 'something,' but it IS NOT LOVE! I agree with Sir D, above, most wholeheartedly. Show me someone that 'does' something for people or the planet and I'll show you someone that LOVES people and the planet (e.g. this person IS experiencing REAL love).
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 15:01:18 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Ask yourself....
Message:
Mike:

RE: Show me someone that 'does' something for people or the planet and I'll show you someone that LOVES people and the planet (e.g. this person IS experiencing REAL love).

One caveat. On anything less than a planetary scale it is sometimes more loving not to act. In fact, it is frequently more loving not to act.

-Scott
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 16:26:13 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: He's back!
Message:
Mike, glad to see you are back in all your unbridled glory. Love to read your posts. (I know you were busy w/work and family --I'm there too these days--but it's good to be seeing you active here again)
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 18:52:54 (EST)
From: Willi Kranz
Email: gothman@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Jane
Subject: Love
Message:
Hello my friendlies. Yes, I agree Love is most impotant which is why my Schwabische Supergruppe are calling themselves the Blisskid. We are rock 'n' roll kids who live for the love and the holy bliss! But Gunther is miserable because of what happened to his accordion. But you all know me by now, and how much I am thinking about love all of the times. Sometimes when I yearning for that smoulder and tingle in the solar plectrum I switch off my Italian satellite channel and go for solace to the Guru Maharaj ji's webspace and boy are they nuts, those fellahs! I may not say my Master is God, and then they snip my listing. They speak with comical monotony and leave out the pie filling. Crazy! If they all lived in the same village you would blame radiation.

Today I am thinking about love again and shopping with Gerlinde for necessary Christmas items. She says me 'Willi Kranz, why do you choose only these cards with the the little red bird picture in the snow?' Gerlinde recognises a secret yearning! I tell her 'Gerlinde, my sweet ball-and-chain, you know I am nearly always faithful. Now you must permit my heart this fantasy.' Gerlinde says 'If you mean groupies and improper relations it is aufwiedersehen BMW and also the bauplot.' This makes me really mad! What nasty blackmail she is pulling. I say, 'Gerlinde, Robyn is not some inexpensive slut from the bier garden, she is my sophisticated lady after Katie is telling me sod off. Katie is very dear, of course, but is versprochen. Katie tells me there are many more fishes in the ocean, which is the truth, and Robyn is no halibut, I can tell you, she is one Crazy American girl that loves me very much. How do you think a rocker feels with Heidi on his arm? Answer me that please! By now I am bold and not caring. I must follow where my heart is leading. Gerlinde cracks me hard with a festive snowstorm. It is breaking on my head and I cry. But I will bear this pain for the sake of Robyn, my liebling, and one day I know she likes to have my children (I will send them to her. Ha-ha!). Gerlinde says 'my life is in ruins and so is the festive snowstorm. You will pay for this, Willi Kranz.' But I cannot pay becuase my last pfennigs are wasted on schnapps and crazy times, and Herr Schnellinger says we get no marks for the Unterschnatterbach gig because of what is happening there. This is life on the edge, Robyn. Are you ready? If not there is also the freaky rock chick calling oneself Norika. This is perhaps also a convenient love opportunity.

Now I must go,
Willi
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 20:59:16 (EST)
From: Many beautiful girls
Email: None
To: Willi
Subject: Love
Message:
We all love you Willi we are mad for you and want to have many babies with you
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 22:10:39 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Willi Kranz
Subject: Love and Robyn
Message:
Dear Willi -
There are many men who want to get close to Robyn, so perhaps you should court her more nicely. She is very sophisticated, as you said, and I know she will NOT like a festive snowstorm broken over HER head. So you must be very nice in order for her to answer you. I know this may be hard for you, but you must try.

Your friend from Villengen-Schwenningen,
Katie
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 23:44:48 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Katie
Subject: Katie knows Robyn
Message:
Dear Katie,
Thank you muchly for your message to our Willi! You are so right and I didn't see your message until I answered Willi. Rocker men are such a tial as you well know my fellow groupie!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 23:28:54 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Willi Kranz
Subject: Love
Message:
Dear Willi,
You know I love you! You are right, I am no halibut slut from the ocean! But am I a Fisteria Pescasita Willi? Is it my turn to love you? After Katie, before Norika as a diversion from Gerlinde, I am not feeling so special. :( That is the painful life of the groupie of a rock star. Now I am tore between being a groupie rock and roller and a Web Wizard's gopie! What is a Crazy American girl to do! I do not know if having your children, sent priority mail -g, is a plus or minus Willi? Are they useful children or will they become Crazy American Teenagers, UGH!? Is that life on the edge that you say to me?
Still you sending me love feelings by buying cards with red birds in the snow touches my heart and fills me with love, smoldering tingles and all! :) I think your mention of Italian satillite may also be fate, my dear Willi, as I am a Crazy American Italian Girl. You must know though that my heart does not go smushy over Guru Maharaj ji or his web village! Schnapps and crazy times are so good though. Well Willi, I LOVE YOU, but I have to think of lines of women and children in the mail. I will think on this and meet you here again and tell you my thinking and if it is smoldering or sodding off.
The filling is the best part of the pie too isn't it Willi!
Your loving tourtured groupie!
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 23:46:39 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Robyn
Subject: Love
Message:
Dear Willie,
I just thought that I do so like so many of your numerous house mates! :) That is a good thing for you!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 05:31:55 (EST)
From: Willi Kranz
Email: gothman@redcrow.demon.co
To: Robyn
Subject: Love
Message:
My Dear Robyn,

I am sorry for what I spoke hurtfully, and will torture you less in the forthcoming future. It is a shaming how I behave and Katie telling me this is correct. You must comprending that I am badly hurt in love, and also on the head, so the big commitment is sometimes troublesome for me. Also many speckles of snowstorm in the hairs are not cool and likened to dandruff making me an ungainly vision for my fans.

Of course I do not preferring Norika, and would forget her but I discussing with Rolf, Otto, Heinz and Jurgen who say now we have thrown out Gunther she may join the Blisskid instead and I keep the wandering hands on the fretboard and my feet on the wah-wah pedal. Plus too the many years with the Guru Maharaj ji always making me forget the moral issuing of the Catholische bring up. Guru says us squeeze the eyelids and do as you pleasure but is vacant regarding about the hormones urges. Now I confess to the priest after much wilderness era and say him how the badness I am doing, then I hailed many Marys and my soul is white as the Christmas picture, and the little robin sings still there sweetly.

If you are caring of me still, Robyn, that is wunderbar and the joy is considerate. Do you have a lot of money by the way? No, forget I said that. Love will be triumphant even though we taking the bus everywhere. You would not like the satellite channel and the priest tells me never glimpse this sordid profanity, but for you I will even watch only MTV or Suddeutchefernsehen which is scheisse.

Your humble devoted rockman,
Willi
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Date: Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 09:51:46 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Willi Kranz
Subject: Love
Message:
Dearest Willi,
My heart soars. I will hang 3 extra stockings, will the children be here by Christmas? What more could a woman ask for but less toruture! No dear Willi, no money here, no buses either. We will be driving in style though in my '93 Ford Escort with 3 working doors and only one dent and one big scratch. My teenager thinks breaking in good English children to the crazy American teen ways will be much fun too!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 01:58:03 (EST)
From: Noriko Sakamoto
Email: None
To: Willi Kranz
Subject: Love
Message:
Of course I do not preferring Norika, and would forget her but I discussing with Rolf, Otto, Heinz and Jurgen who say now we have thrown out Gunther she may join the Blisskid instead and I keep the wandering hands on the fretboard and my feet on the wah-wah pedal.

Herro Wirri most excerrent rock and roll emperor! It is Noriko here, Number 1 fanclub of Blisskid and riff of Wirri San. Is news here true? You want Noriko play in Blisskid. I like very much this fantastic excitement. Not only I play bass guitar, but also after jamming closes and screaming ended, back in hotel room, Geisha Blade girls like to give massage by walking on back of each one. Extra relax this. But maybe problem here. If Wirri always has feet on wah-wah pedal, then Wirri cannot walk on back. Possibly very fortunate, as Wirri not girl from Japan, but is big Germanic beefcake man and might break back of mine. Ah so, it looks like I must always be one to walk massage on Wirri's back. This OK. Noriko very much likes this idea, Wirri - because you one hot sushi with wasabi.

But wait this moment. If I go to Blisskid, what will Geisha Blade do for bass playing girl. This may be job for Robyn, Gerlinde or for very honourable Katie. I can teach song words. Our number 1 song this day is Samurai Satguru. I must ask apolgies Wirri. I heard word Satguru from Mr Gunther and like this sound so I write it. I hope OK, no copyright problem, no problem recording company. I no understand it, but Gunther looks like spaceman when he sing it, so I think cool!

Kiss Fuji my heart (another haiku love saying), Noriko.
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 16:13:46 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Noriko Sakamoto
Subject: Love
Message:
Dear Noriko,
I do not play the guitar. I am Willi's woman now. His children are arriving any day! You may want to walk on Willi's back but you see you will not. He has already seen the Italian satilite TV and he will not watch anymore because it is bad but he will have a real American Italian girl here and won't need anything more. We will be driving to NYC to make big record deals and set up recording studio time for the band. Someday we will have our own recording studio here in PA in a barn like John Cougar Meloncamp(sp). I don't want to be the crazy American girl with you so just play your music and let Willi and I start our beautiful life together. You can be our good friend. Maybe you and Gunther....
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 17:32:09 (EST)
From: Rep. of Lollipop Guild
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Love
Message:
Hey, are you dumping your Munchkin for some crummy Kraftwerk clone? How can you do this? And who is this John Cooler Melonhead guy with the studio? Well, you just follow that yellow brick road, sister, I just hope you don't get hit by some house from Kansas. How could you dump the representative of the Lollipop Guild for Willi Kranz? I'm tellin' Guru Mariachi on you!!!! Hey, Noriko, konichi wa! i kaga desu ka?
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