Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum III Archive # 31 | |
From: Dec 2, 1998 |
To: Dec 14, 1998 |
Page: 1 Of: 5 |
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 17:33:06 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Amtext Revisited Message: The sordid story of Amtext just gets more interesting. Let me see if I can recap what we have heard so far from Nimrod and RDS. 1. Amtext is a book buying business, all the profits of which are given to Maharaji for his personal use. It's unclear how the payment is characterized, but it likely isn't characterized as income, otherwise Maharaji would have to pay income taxes on it. According to estimates from people who have worked for Amtext, Maharaji may personally receive over $1,000,000 per year of personal 'income.' 2. The premies who work for Amtext are told that Maharaji is 'the beneficial owner of Amtext,' (I guess in addition to getting the money) probably so the premiew will be motivated to work harder in the vein of 'service' to the Lord, as in days past, but they have to keep their mouths shut about Maharaji's involvement or risk reprisals from the company and the people who run it. Maharaji gives parties at 'the residence' for the biggest premie producers, thanking them for allowing him to live the luxurious lifestyle he does, living in several 'residences,' one with about 20 bathrooms and windows that retract automatically into the walls/floors. 3. Chuck Nathan is the titular head of Amtext, but he actually spends most of his time around Maharaji, not at the Amtext offices in Miami, Florida. So, who is really running the show? Who is REALLY the head of Amtext and has the final say on everything that happens? It seems pretty clear to ME, but what do I know? IRS: should that 'gift' Maharaji gets, really be classified as 'INCOME?' This is a more pertinent question, since it appears Maharaji is 'the beneficial owner' and provides motivational parties for the premies to encourage them to work harder for his ultimate benefit. 4. The are non-premie buyers who work for Amtext, and non-premie support personnel at the Amtext office, who are not told that Maharaji is 'the beneficial owner of Amtext' and that the profits of the company actually go to a cult leader. That particular set of facts is hidden from them. 5. There appears to be a lot of dissension among the buyers at Amtext, including, apparently, hatred towards the Amtext leadership, including this Brogan couple in Ohio, who have made a lot of money out of Amtext and actively work to undermine those with whom they disagree. [I'm not exactly sure what this means, so perhaps you guys can explain. Also, for the record, I lived in the ashram with Shawn Brogan (from Connecticut?) for a time and at that time he was working as a book buyer.] 6. Incredibly, a premie (RDS) says he actually started the book-buying business in 1978, and, in 1979, RDS, apparently out of a desire to serve Guru Maharaj Ji, introduced the business concept to Chuck Nathan, then the Boston ashram housefather. According to RDS, DLM simply stole the business from RDS, and Chuck Nathan became the national head of the premie business. RDS says DLM even used 'spies' to undermine RDS being a competitor of Amtext, and although RDS was suppposed to be paid a 5% finders fee for his work, he claims he was never paid (Is that correct?). RDS contacted Amtext to try to work something out, but got no response. He also wrote Maharaji to tell him about the problem, and also (surprise!) got no response. Maharaji, meanwhile, if what RDS says is true, seems to have no ethical problems taking huge amounts of cash from a company he likely has knowledge was stolen from a a premie. Geez, this is HUGE!!!! I have a few questions of Nimrod and RDS, but I will post them in the next post. Thanks you guys, this is very interesting. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 18:00:16 (EST)
From: x Email: None To: JW Subject: Amtext Revisited Message: What a surprise, BM's responsible for an unethical business venture. Oh well, as I recall BM was never much into defending ethics, honesty, morality or for that matter, just being fair and decent. That stuff just gets in the way of his sole objective in life, which is to acquire(sp?) as much personal wealth as possible via his Rhadosami hustle. What amazes me is that codependents like shp continue to rationalize and make excuses for BM's lack of decency. I mean come on.'Maybe Maharaji was unaware that the Amtext idea was stolen from a premie.'......? What happened to 'Not a leaf moves without my knowing it.'??? Oh yeah. Maharaji changed that, now he's a teacher,guide and..... MORE!!! What an absurd joke this mess is turning into. My two cents, x Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 23:07:17 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: x Subject: x marks the spot Message: thank you x for the quote about the leaf moving it moved something inside of me i'll get back to you Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 23:27:57 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: shp Subject: x marks the spot Message: Thank you, x - Here's the exact text of the quote, from Jean-Michel's site: Everything depends on me. Not even a leaf moves a millimetre without my wish.' - Maharaji - March 13, 1971 Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 18:01:42 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: JW Subject: Nimrod and RDS - Questions Message: Could both of you guys take a look at my summary, above and correct anything that I have wrong? Also, can you add any more details? I must say I am fascinated. I have a few more technical questions for Nimrod, if you know: 1. I'm still unclear as to what keeps an Amtext book buyer from going directly to the wholesaler and getting a higher commission because no commission would then be going to Amtext. How does Amtext prevent that from happening? 2. You said that Amtext gets a commission for the 'volume of books' that the Amtext buyers supply the wholesaler. I take it this is the only income Amtext receives, and it doesn't share with the buyers how much it's commission is. Correct? 3. You also said that if a book buyer trains another book buyer, he or she gets 2% commission from that buyer's volume. Is the 2% a kick back from Amtext, or is it deducted from the sponsored book buyer's commission? Does the sponsor get the 2% for as long as the buyer is at Amtext? If the Brogans have sponsored 50% of the buyers (150?) and they get 2% of the volume of 150 people, that must be a significant number, no? Isn't that about $200,000 a year based on the volume figures you estimated of $70,000 per buyer? 4. You indicated that the principals of Amtext complain that they are underpaid for the work they do. Have they ever discussed how much money they make? Can you tell from their lifestyle, in terms of homes, cars they drive, etc.? [My experience with honchos around M is that they try to emulate his lifestyle as much as they can. I wonder if this is still the case.] 5. Nimrod, you said that the premie buyers are told to keep their mouths shut about Maharaji's connection to the company. What happens if someone spills the beans? Has that happened? And what do you mean about buyers 'not being able to take the pressure anymore,' when they jump ship and go to another company? What kind of pressure are you talking about? 6. What has Shawn Brogan and the other Amtext leaders done that has made them so hated? Also, do you know what Barbara Brogan's maiden name was? Just curious. Thanks to both you guys. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 18:57:07 (EST)
From: rds Email: rsmith@aol.com To: JW Subject: Nimrod and RDS - Questions Message: JW, One thing you had wrong was that my protests back in 1979 were with the heads of Divine Light Mission not with Amtext. I did protest to Chuck at first but that waS TO NO AVAIl. All he could see was money for Maharaj Ji. I always had the feeling that if Maharaji told all the premies to jump off a cliff that Chuck would be the first togo. As the oldest full t time book buyer, I CAN ANSWER MOST OF YOUR OTHER QUESTIONS. Amtext has such a good deal with MBS,THE WHOLESALER WHO BUYS ALMOST ALL of their books, that they can still give most buyers a better deal than they could get by going directly to MBS. That was my plan originally. I envisioned that Amtext could get such a foothold in the industry as to command huge commissions from MBS. My plan worked but without me. You must understand that since most of the buyers in the country work through Amtext that Amtext has tremendous clout in negotiating commissions. The commission for training buyers does not come out of the buyer's c Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 19:21:28 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: rds Subject: Nimrod and RDS - Questions Message: Thanks, RDS Who did you go to at DLM to talk about your problems with DLM stealing your book buying idea? I think Dennis Marciniak was president of DLM in 1979 - 1980. Did you go to him or someone else? Who did you talk to and what did they say? Did you specifically ask for you 5% commission? And when you sent a letter to Guru Maharaj Ji, did that letter explain what had happened? Thanks for the explanation about the deal with MBS. That explains it and that makes sense. You must understand that since most of the buyers in the country work through Amtext that Amtext has tremendous clout in negotiating commissions. By 'most of the buyers in the country' do you mean both buyers who work for Amtext and those who don't, or do you mean Amtext is just the biggest company? So, it's true that you got stiffed out of the 5% finders fee you were supposed to get? I was actually at IHQ in the Spring of 1979, and I remember the frenetic fundraising because the plane project was a black hole swallowing millions in cash. Nathan's headset was pretty prevelent in the Mission at that time. I'm sure I have met Chuck Nathan, but I can't place his face at the moment, although I would have met him at least 15 years ago. I can see why you feel the way you do. It looks like there have been quite a few casualties of Maharaji's world. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 20:00:02 (EST)
From: rds Email: rsmith1121@aol.com To: JW Subject: Nimrod and RDS - Questions Message: JW Dennis MARCINIAK was agood friend of mine. We lived together in the ashram in Detroit. I did try to contact him both by mail and by phone . I was shocked that I NEVER HEARD BACK FROM HIM as we were very close in Detroit.It was quite a learning experience. Iheard Dennis went to law school but have lost track of him? Do you know ifhe still follows Maharaj Ji? Is he back in Wisconsin? Maybe he could sue Amtext forme-just kidding The 5 % commission was supposed to be paid by MBS but since I no longer had control, MBS JUST GAVE IT TO amtext and there was nothing i could do about it. I meant Amtext was the biggest company. Actually, there is no one anywhere near their size that recruits buyers like them. They have at least 80% of the buyers under their umbrella . The remainong buyers are almost all independents like myself and are not associated with any buying group. Iwill get Barbara Brogan's maiden name tonight and pass it on to you tomorrow. The $200,000 sounds ab Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 22:44:38 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: rds Subject: Dennis Marciniak Message: I also knew Dennis pretty well, but only after he asked that I be transferred from the Chicago ashram to Miami to be part of IHQ. My first job there was working with new 'businesses' but IHQ ran out of money and he sent me to be coordinator in Washington DC. Later, I was cc in Miami, had an office down the hall from Dennis. I have also wondered about whatever happened to Dennis. He was a thoroughly decent person and one of the few DLM honchos who appeared to me to really NOT be on a power trip of his own. He was always very nice to me, and I sort of figured I could talk to him, just as a person, unlike most of the other Miami honchos. I hope he has gone on to other things and got free from the cult. I'm sure if he didn't contact you it was because he was told not to by Maharaji or people close to him. Clearly, if they saw the book buyers as a money-maker, it might have been out of Dennis' hands. I remember when he was DLM president, I used to see him coming back from meetings with Maharaji and sometimes be really devestated. I guess Maharaji was really heavy with him at that time, and we were always hearing about how pissed off Maharaji was at that time, yelling at people at meetings and such. He was really bad-mouthing DLM and I guess Dennis by association. Dennis had less and less authority during that period, because Maharaji was more into the plane project and taking direct control ot things, like businesses, so Dennis might have been less involved. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 14:40:03 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: rds Subject: Nimrod and RDS - Questions Message: The 5 % commission was supposed to be paid by MBS but since I no longer had control, MBS JUST GAVE IT TO amtext and there was nothing i could do about it. RDS, I'm still trying to understand what happened here. This is what it sounds like to me, let me know if it comports with your understanding, thanks: In 1978, you were a premie who started working as a book-buyer, on your own. Maybe you had even been one of the first book buyers in the country? Anywayt, you developed the idea that you could start a company that would hire book buers and direct the books to MBS to give them some kind of dependable volume. Since this would be a great benefit to MBS, MBS agreed to pay you a finders fee of 5% of the volume for setting up this book-buying system. Being a good premie, and knowing that premies needed flexible working situations, you took the idea to DLM, namely Chuck Nathan, housefather in the Boston ashram, who took it to DLM honchos at national headquarters in Miami. Instead of working with you on developing the business, which would provide jobs and income for ashram residents, Nathan and DLM just cut you out of the picture entirely , to the point of even taking the 5% from MDS that was supposed to go to you. Then, when you tried to continue in competition with Amtext, they tried to undermine your business, including, making it hard to recruit buyers by having premie spies respond to your employment ads. You complained to the heads of Divine Light Mission about having your idea stolen from you , but DLM just stonewalled you. You also wrote to Maharaji himself, explaining how you were ripped off by DLM, and he never responded either. Sorry if I'm being repetitive here, but it just seems so incredibly amazing to me everytime I think about it, that I just want to make sure I have it right. It seems another chapter in the book about how anything is okay if it is done in service to the Lord of the Universe. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 21:11:31 (EST)
From: Nimrod Email: None To: JW Subject: Nimrod and RDS - Questions Message: Question#1: I now believe more than ever that it would have been totally pointless for me to negotiate my own deal with MBS.Even had that been a tolerable scenario from an Amtext point of view,according to what we've already learned from RDS,that with the clout Amtext has with MBS, I would never have been able to get a better deal from MBS directly, than the one I had with Amtext.Besides any premie buyer who has been in the business for a little while, can easily negotiate a comparable deal to the one they had with Amtext, with one of a few rival wholesalers competing against the Amtext-MBS axis.My conclusion is that there would be no point therefore for a premie buyer jumping off the good ship Amtext to even try negotiate their own deal with MBS-better to just take you business elsewhere-there is life after Amtext and other wholesalers will be glad to take your business.Thats what happened for me when in May of 1998 I was told by the Amtext management team that my business with Amtext was no longer appreciated(I'll say more about that later... but for now...)I just turned around and turned the books over to another wholesaler whose payment and comission schedule is totally comparable if not even a little better than what I was getting from Amtext.Plus these new guys really don't care whether or not I'll be going to Long Beach,attending local video events, contributing to my local EV community etc. The focus is on the business alone and personal considerations stemming from judgements about the kosherness of one's premiehood are no longer part of the picture...and thats just fine with me. Question #2 Thats it-Amtext receives its cut for the volume of books its buyers supply the wholesalers with(let us not forget that there is also a secondary wholesaler for whom Amtext dealing buyers supply a volume of around $2,000,000 [guesstimate again, but one thats at least based on a conversation with Barb Brogan]and thats in addition to the $13,000,000 guesstimate on volume its buyers are supplying MBS.That secondary wholesaler ,by the way is in Nebraska. I've already spelled out the essentials of the Amtext payment plan for its buyers in a previous post.There is nothing in addition to that from Amtext to the buyers, unless they qualify for a bonus based on having a volume over $50,000.Once a buyer reaches $50,000 volume, their commission jumps up by %5. Question#3; Correct, the 2% sponsoring commision is a kickback from Amtext for the sponsoring buyer and not deducted from the sponsored buyer,and yes this 2% is paid out to the sponsoring buyer on all the sonsored buyers volume with Amtext-for as long as it lasts. Regarding the Brogans,they have sponsored approximately 50 of the approximately 150 PREMIE buyers,currently active with Amtext and a number of non -premie buyers as well.In I994 Barb Brogan told me her income was approximately $200,000 from her own volume ,plus another $50,000 from all her 2per cents on those buyers' volumes who she sponsored. Question #4: Well, obviously the Brogans are doing quite well and I 'm sure Chuck wouldn't complain about what he's getting,because he gets to be so close to M(I really don't have any details on Chuck 's deal with Amtext - how much he gets paid exactly) but it was from one of the premie managers at the office that I got the impression that these guys(that is, the premie managers at the office ),knew they were overworked and underpaid but heck,its all for the 'Boss'. No, these premies working at the office do not own houses or drive fancy cars, and they have to pay their own way to programs.(interesting side point here- premie buyers will deduct their tavelling expenses for EV events as business expenses .They would simply legitimize these travelling expenses by claming they were meeting with other buyers in ...would you believe... Long Beach of all places..in the beginning of December-this is a much coveted fringe benefit for 'devoted' premie buyers. JW, I've already begun to answer Questions 5 and 6 in a previous post, and I know that you 've seen it already and have already submitted another post where you have further questions along the lines of questions 5 and 6. So let me deal with these questions in my reply to your later post. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 04:21:51 (EST)
From: irs Email: None To: Nimrod Subject: Nimrod and RDS - Questions Message: maybe the IRS can be notified about the brogans and thier LA expense deduction. Nathan too. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 13:45:22 (EST)
From: gerry Email: None To: irs Subject: Nimrod and RDS - Questions Message: maybe the IRS can be notified about the brogans and thier LA expense deduction. Nathan too. Just my opinion, but, while I would dearly love to see BM popped by the IRS and go to jail, I wouldn't want that to happen to the others. After all, they are dupes and lackeys. Probably a wrong opinion, legally and morally, so I'll duck and cover... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 18:52:26 (EST)
From: Nimrod Email: None To: gerry Subject: Nimrod and RDS - Questions Message: In my opinion, your opinion is totally correct 'legally and morally.' Whatever the tax related sins of Nathan and his chief cohorts may be (assuming that such claims could even be validated or proven)they would be totally so infinitisimal,pickyuni,just plain laughable as compared to the tax related sins of BM. But I bet you Chuck Nathan and his cohorts would be willing to do anything to protect Amtext and the Rawatian derriere, even if it means setting themselves up as fallguys, taking the rap for BM . Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 23:01:32 (EST)
From: dv Email: None To: JW Subject: Amtext Revisited Message: Wow- you guys REALLY finally noticed. As I suggested before, maybe we should e-mail all the professors and tell them where their money goes, although maybe they won't care. Someone in a previous and rather official sounding e-mail said that premies were a small part of the bookseller industry, yet this seems to be condradicted by RDS. Between Deca, Amtext, suicides and murder, there's enough fodder here for 20/20. What's next? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 00:26:02 (EST)
From: MBS Promise Keepers? Email: None To: dv Subject: MBS dealing with the devil Message: While the business world contains it's share of men who claim to offer a service and make a deal and cheat and lie instead of playing fair and square, a quality CEO will steer his company in such a way that supports what is healthy for his society and his childrens future. Responsible CEO's will know that thier decisions and thier integrity should run a parallel track. President Clinton is running into the trouble he is primarily because he stated one thing emphatically as truth and then it was not so. In this case, the CEO of Amtext made very stong claims that he was the lord god almighty and in fact- 'the ultimate ruler'. Demanding complete obedience from those young people that heard his strongly-emphatically put- claims as truth. While wrapping himself with all the religious words like grace, light, within, truth, master of life, the CEO of Amtext travels the world having people kiss his feet and standing as God and the Master of Life for the ignorant innocent to accept. While Barnes and Noble exists to make a profit while providing a service of making knowledge available to the community at an economy of scale price, it is supporting Amtext which is providing the knowledge that Maharaji is the lord god almighty. Think of the wonderful press this will eventually get you. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 00:34:07 (EST)
From: dv Email: None To: MBS Promise Keepers? Subject: MBS dealing with the devil Message: The '20 years late' club's (just formed in thread below) first investment is a book about M. Wanna sign us up for distribution? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 22:52:59 (EST)
From: dv Email: None To: MBS Promise Keepers? Subject: MBS dealing with the devil Message: I understand the Ozzie bite the bird head off technique for publicity and market share. I don't understand your definition or relevance of 'a responsible CEO' as you defined, especially in light of how one gets 'wonderful press'. I do understand how your wonderful press will help my booksales! Thankyou! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Dec 13, 1998 at 00:20:24 (EST)
From: dv Email: None To: MBS Promise Keepers? Subject: MBS dealing with the devil Message: Actually, I have never been impressed with the prices I've paid at Barnes & Nobles. Care to comment? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 13:55:08 (EST)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: dv Subject: to dv and everyone involved Message: Dear dv - We'd love to put together the pieces of all this stuff (Amtext, DECA, security, and the like) for the actual web site, but the problem is that we keep GETTING the information in pieces. If someone who was familiar with the operations wanted to write an outline down in coherent, linear form (not that the individual posts aren't coherent, but it's hard to piece them together), that would be great. It could then be filled in with information from the individual posts. There was so much secrecy surrounding these operations that it's hard to figure out the whole story at times. The posts by Nimrod, RDS, and JW have pulled a lot of the Amtext stuff together, which helps. Definite dates and facts are a big aid in understanding the whole picture. Take care, Katie P.S. BTW, I think the post you read which minimized Amtext was a 'spin' by a premie. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 15:06:23 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Katie Subject: Premie Spin Message: Yes, Katie. I think that 'minimizing' post was a spin by our very own OP. She speaks with such authority about Amtext and other premie business operations and finances, but won't explain how she knows what she does. Nimrod and RDS have qualified themselves to say what they have talked about. I wonder where OP is now? OP, if you are reading this, what are your responses to what Nimrod and RDS have told us? Come on, don't be shy! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 22:57:45 (EST)
From: dv Email: None To: Katie Subject: to dv and everyone involved Message: Thanks- I thought it smelled like a spin, too. Why do you need times and dates for this stuff? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Dec 13, 1998 at 12:21:15 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: dv Subject: to dv and everyone involved Message: Hi DV - Here's why we'd like to have times and dates for Amtext, DECA, etc. before writing about them: All of these organizations, plus DLM/EV, evolved over time. It helps to know when they started, and what happened during the period that they existed, otherwise some stories may appear to contradict each other slightly. It's interesting to see exactly what period of DLM/EV they fit into. It also helps whoever is writing about them to write an introduction and to arrange people's testimony in logical order. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 02:32:18 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: JW Subject: Amtext Revisited Message: I just read your overview to get a bit up to speed on the subject. Have to admit I didn't follow it all (I get woozie when I see numbers and percentages). But the name 'Brogan' jumped out. Shawn and Barbara operate the local information line in Cleveland, where people call to find out about video events promoting Maharaji to aspirants and premies. I was given that info a while back, but never called the number. (I've already seen Maharaji's act performed live.) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 03:14:44 (EST)
From: Nimrod Email: None To: JW Subject: Amtext Revisited Message: Great recap JW,thanks.I have just this to add to hopefully refine our understanding of some of the points of this story you made above. --Regarding your point #2: All the premies involved with Amtext are told and have no doubt that M is the' SOLE BENEFICIAL OWNER of Amtext' but I believe it is only Chuck Nathan and the premie,managing staffers at the office in Miami along with the Brogans , a few select top buyers and a few select PAMers who could really answer the question -Who is the LEGAL,PRINCIPLE owner?...and whether or not there is a difference.If these are in fact two seperate beings, it would only serve to validate the point you make above that M's payment from Amtext 'likely isn't characterized as income,otherwise Maharaji would have to pay taxes on it.' Of course there is a conspiracy of silence surrounding M's Amtext reality.From M's perspective and the perspective of premies involved in the business who would you want to tell-people at introductory programs?, professors and teachers from whom the buyers obtain the books?Wouldn't they be pleased to know whose pockets they're stuffing by parting with their books to Amtext dealing buyers--( premie and non ),and do you really wan't the non premie buyers dealing with Amtext to know about the company's M reality?I mean for how many non premies would knowing that Amtext is an M company enhance their sense of connectedness to it?Methinks not too many. One more minor clarification - the parties are for ALL the premie buyers and not just the top producing ones.(Hey, lets give the little guys a break.) --Regarding point #3:I was told by the Brogans and by the premie staffers at the office that Chuck Nathan is the 'president' of the company.He runs the company on an executive level,while operationally, on a day to day basis, the company is managed by the premie staffers at the office. I believe Chuck consults with M on all company issues on which Chuck would be seeking M's advice or help eg: premie buyer relations,especially when the going gets rough.I believe he also informs and cosults with M on other major company issues such as new directions for Amtext in terms of investment opportuities and possible future Amtext ventures in other businesses. I've already referred to the second part of you point #3,in my references to your point #2 above.Exactly, I would say that is indeed the pertinent and relevant questions for the IRS to ask --on point #5 I would say this: Most of the dissension at Amtext has centered on buyers feeling that their markets have been excessively saturated by new and of course unwanted competition.There is also however in at least some instances ,dissension which arises when personal considerations are brought to bear especially on premie buyer -office relations.Is this premie buyer being a 'good premie '? eg. going to events, attending videos in their communities ,tithing to EV and to M personally -all as an expression of gratitude of course that you can even be so fortunate as to be able to participate in M's Magical Amtextian Mystery Tour-that you could be so blessed to be able to benefit your Master in this way.If you don't cut that particular mold of a 'real ' and 'conscious' premie-you can end up in the Amtext doghouse.And I'll talk more about that later.For now let me just say that dissenting premie buyers can target their dissension at the office in Miami, at their fellow premie- buyers sponsorig additional competition in one's territory,and there is always a 50% chance that the new competition will be another premie, so we end up with all these premies fighting tooth and nail against each other, hating each other, all so that M can live out his life in his multi-millionaire and I suppose approaching billionaire status.The Brogans are the most hated of the sponsoring premie buyers simply because of their dual( or could it be duplictous ) roles as both leading Amtext buyers ( in terms of their own individual volume), and as members of the Amtext management team they have personally sponsored( much more than other buyers) a minimum of 50 currently active buyers ,most of whom are premies.(Barb is the brains in this couple-Shawn functions more like Barb's gofer boy appendage). Then, there's invisible Chuckie Cheese,(no kidding M has actually on occasion called him by that name - 'Chuckie Cheese' well, I think its cute) Nathan .He has a reputation of being a cut-throat little prick.-the architect of the thievery endured by RDS and other shenanagans.Of course then there is The Big M himself, but if you're a little monkey, how can you possibly not love your Mahamonkey? Until you've had more than enough that is. --In reference to point #6- I just wan't to thank RDS for coming forward -confirming and explaining to us all how this most pivotal lynchpin company in the financial world of M was conceived in an act of thievery.And thank you to Jim for his efforts in making contact with RDS and inviting him to share the story with us. --Finally JW,any of the points in your above post that I haven't referred to in this reply- its only because they were extremely well stated and accurate asfar as I am concerned and I have nothing to add. JW, I'll deal with the questions in your posts below a little later.For now,thank you again for the very cogent , effective manner in which you are able to summarize and bring together the main points of this story.Most well done!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 05:56:07 (EST)
From: Runamok Email: None To: Nimrod Subject: Amtext Revisited Message: The IRS is probably interested without anyone having developed a complete case. They will take your info if you want to give it to them. One of the main Washington papers is owned by Moon, and there are other major examples of cults owning businesses which escape me at this late hour. Telling the public or the professors about M's role wouldn't guarantee their repugnance by any means. However, organising some of these entries into a single page with all the info and using that page as part of an email or postering campaign might be the simplest way to present the information in a more complete manner than simply warning them of their possible complicity with the cult. Thanks to all who have come forward and to Jim for coordinating! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 14:15:29 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Nimrod Subject: Amtext Revisited Message: One more minor clarification - the parties are for ALL the premie buyers and not just the top producing ones.(Hey, lets give the little guys a break.) So, I assume the parties are for all the PREMIE buyers, and the non-premie buyers aren't told about it, obviously. Who pays for transportation to Malibu? Does Amtext cover that, or do the buyers have to get themselves to the divine residence? There is also however in at least some instances ,dissension which arises when personal considerations are brought to bear especially on premie buyer -office relations.Is this premie buyer being a 'good premie '? eg. going to events, attending videos in their communities,tithing to EV and to M personally -all as an expression of gratitude of course that you can even be so fortunate as to be able to participate in M's Magical Amtextian Mystery Tour-that you could be so blessed to be able to benefit your Master in this way.If you don't cut that particular mold of a 'real ' and 'conscious' premie-you can end up in the Amtext doghouse I think I am beginning to get the picture. So, there are 'judgements' made at Amtext headquarters about whether or not a premie buyer is a 'good premie?' What happens if someone is considered to NOT be a 'good premie' or is starting the flater a bit? What happens, heaven forbid, if a premie buyer decides he or she doesn't want to be a premie anymore, or openly questions either what Amtext or Maharaji is doing or has done? What happens if you are in the Amtext doghouse? Do buyers get reprisals in a business sense, like getting increased competition, etc.? EEOC: doesn't this sound like religious discrimination which is against the law????????? (Barb is the brains in this couple-Shawn functions more like Barb's gofer boy appendage). This is why I wanted to know who 'Barb' is. Having known Shawn, (and I would suggest he was NOT in the fast reading group in elementary school), I felt it was pretty likely that someone ELSE, besides Shawn, had to be the BRAINS in any successful operation. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 19:03:07 (EST)
From: Lurker Email: None To: JW Subject: Amtext Revisited Message: This is from a pwk - not an ex. I can't comment on Amtext and all the legalities, but I do know all the players involved (even rds). Sean Brogan is probably disliked because he is a jerk, money or no money.....(yes, we're allowed to say that). rds probably didnt do anything because he was scared (as I recall, he was always sort of scared)....Dennis Marciniak is an A-One human being and has been seen around events over the past couple of years. I think he's married with a couple of kids. I forget where he now lives. It always struck me as a strange business - and there are definitely competitors out there. As I understand it, the market's pretty saturated now. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 19:17:54 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Lurker Subject: Amtext Revisited Message: Thanks for the comments, Lurker. I certainly agree with you about Dennis, he's a fine person, although I haven't seen him in 15 years. What do you mean he 'has been seen?' Has he 'been seen' by you? Is that what you mean? I guess you would say Sean Brogan, being the jerk you say he is, is likely not a good example of what the divine knowledge can do for you, in terms of being a fulfilled human being, I mean and allowing you to enjoy life. rds probably didnt do anything because he was scared (as I recall, he was always sort of scared). Scared of what? Scared of crossing or getting on the wrong side of the Lord of the Universe? Displeasing his 'master?' As I have said before, it has been my experience that fear is a very strong, if not he strongest, component of Maharaji's world. I likely would have been scared too. What was he going to do, sue the incarnation of god? But certainly DLM and Maharaji shouldn't have to be sued to get them to do the right thing. And the right thing is NOT just stonewalling a premie you know has been screwed by your organization. But then that might require Maharaji to take responsibility for something unpleasant, and I think he is incapable of doing that. If you see Dennis Marciniak, give him my best. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 22:44:18 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: anyone who may know Subject: where's the quote 'priciples' Message: earlier i noticed a quote attributed to maharaji at an amtext meeting about 'principles..you live by them you die' i'm looking all over for it and can't find it. please direct me to it if you know what i'm talking about...did someone here actually hear him say that? unbelieveable! well, if i have to die anyway, i may as well die for something i believe in! god bless us, everyone. (even the atheists, it could never hurt) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 12:37:53 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: shp Subject: where's the quote 'priciples' Message: shp, I spoke with a long-time Amtext premie, recently come in from the cold, and he told me. But perhaps there was someone else there at the May, 1998 Amtext meeting who remembers Maharaji saying that? I'm not making it up, I assure you. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 17:04:40 (EST)
From: Nimrod Email: None To: shp Subject: where's the quote 'priciples' Message: Look under' Striptesing Ones Scruples ' thread . Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 08:59:48 (EST)
From: Lurker Email: None To: JW Subject: Amtext Revisited Message: Yes, that's what I mean....I saw him in Long Beach last year. I guess you would say Sean Brogan, being the jerk you say he is, is likely not a good example of what the divine knowledge can do for you, in terms of being a fulfilled human being, I mean and allowing you to enjoy life. Not my job to figure out who is a good or not 'good example'. I suppose he's enjoying his life - he's just obnoxious. rds probably didnt do anything because he was scared (as I recall, he was always sort of scared). Scared of what? Scared of crossing or getting on the wrong side of the Lord of the Universe? Displeasing his 'master?' As I have said before, it has been my experience that fear is a very strong, if not he strongest, component of Maharaji's world. I likely would have been scared too. What was he going to do, sue the incarnation of god? No....and I want to avoid being rude here - just generally a very tentative guy in all ways that I could see. I was sort of implying that he brought that stuff with him - and apparently took it with him when he left. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 02:09:44 (EST)
From: Nimrod Email: None To: Lurker Subject: Amtext Revisited Message: The reason this man lost his business was simply this -he was in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong people.M has said not too long ago: 'When people come to me and complain-'Maharaji, people are playing with my head'--all I can say back is -'Well if you didn't have such a big head, maybe people wouldn't play with it!!''In the wonderful world of M, if someone is f**kable... well f**k'em.If a business is stealable ... well then steal it .If its for the Big M-anything goes as long as you get away with it.And when victims are created in the process premie geniuses like lurker will be there to echo M's twisted psychology and say ' well they really brought that stuff with 'em.' Oh yeh... well how many people come to M and his world of k bringing with them a really sincere desire to be screwed? Lurker, this whole Amtext controversy is not about how RDS was 'tentative' and therefor lost his business, or about the kind of jerk Sean Brogan is.To me, really its about how M himself sets the stage for a whole lot of thievery and head f**kery among the premies.Thats the real issue here. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 09:39:39 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: JW Subject: Amtext Revisited Message: Joe: Re: EEOC: doesn't this sound like religious discrimination which is against the law????????? Very valid point. So, between the IRS and the EEOC... ouch!! -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 18:50:42 (EST)
From: Nimrod Email: None To: JW Subject: Amtext Revisited Message: Re the first part of your post - yes the Amtext parties with M are exclusively for the Amtext premies.Non premie buyers don't even have a clue that there is an Amtext party, let alone where it is , or who's hosting it .And yes the premie buyers pay their own way .Moreover quite a few handed over envelopes to M himself and to Patrick.I'm sure the cost of these parties are more than made up by the contents in the envelopes. Now on Oct. 17, 97 there was another party at the residence for an expanded guest list of 300 people.Along with 150 Amtext premies there were an additional 150 premies- M's leading financial contributors from all over. Out of town premies , for the most part stayed at a Malibu hotel under the group name 'International Resources Group'.I did not attend. Re the second part of your post-yes again-it is a matter of judgements being applied to a business situation,that I believed very strongly had no place in any sane business relationship-judgements placed on the kosherness of my premiehood . Now you ask the question, what do they do to keep you in line?or what's the AMTEXT DOGHOUSE about?Let me say the following. The premie managers at the office in Miami can do a number of things to destablize a run amok buyer-delay of payments owing,even fudging shipment reports to reflect a lesser value for the books-by having more books check in as used as opposed to new,even if they really were in new condition. There is also little head games the people in Miami played such as not answering the phone when you call and then declaring 'Nimrod , how can we be avoiding you when we don't even have a caller ID system!?'Outrageous!!!If anyone who has done business with that office for a while can believe that that is true , well then you can probably believe in anything thats' stranger than fiction 'This office in Miami functions largely as an inbound call centre for 300 buyers , and with all the dissension in this company one irate buyer could virtually tie up the company's telephone lines and without caller ID ,the office would be just about defenceless.They have caller ID,and they also use it to play little telephonic head games. The game is about manipulation, and even coerscion to get you to submit to the will or judgements of the office which they see as synonymous with the will of the Lord and therefor for your own good .At the end ,if you don't buy in to their 'f**kbrain ways, you're told that your business is not wanted or appreciated at Amtext.I suppose this is the ultimate fear for premie buyers, to get the boot from the office and not to be able to attend another party with M.At the end, for myslf anyways, that was quite an acceptale price to pay.The way I see it M lends his presence to these parties to legitimize all the dissension and conflict within Amtext, because its 'all for him.'In so doing he merely paves the way for another round of headf**kery. AS far as Barb Brogan is concerned- no I do not know her maiden name-and personally couldn't care less.She does have a nickname-'Schnitz'-I guess that would make Sean the official ,Amtext 'Weiner-Scnitzel' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 23:15:04 (EST)
From: deep throat Email: None To: Nimrod Subject: Amtext Revisited Message: How come no one ever thanked me for bringing this subject up? DON'T respond, as you may be thought a fool. I justed wanted my place in history. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 04:11:25 (EST)
From: friends of deep Email: None To: deep throat Subject: Amtext Revisited Message: Thank you deep throat! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 09:05:30 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: JW Subject: SLATE Message: Joe: Have you ever heard of SLATE? The forerunner of SDS at U.C. Berkeley, it was started by David J. Armor on the issue of whether students would be able to have their own cooperative to buy and sell textbooks and other student essentials. David is a close friend, and I think he might be interested in this Amtext thang. There is also the SLATE online magazine, which (although it's only a namesake) might be interested in an article with an ironic edge. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 13:02:50 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: SLATE Message: Scott, sounds interesting. Maybe you could provide Armor with the forum address and see if he might be interested. Do you have the address for SLATE? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 16:57:27 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: JW Subject: SLATE Message: Joe: SLATE is a Microsoft publication, so I think it can be found on their website somewhere. David would probably be put off by this forum, though I can't be certain. He would be interested in the Amtext thing though, I think. Anyway, SLATE (the magazine) is a sort of leftist/hip publication so I was thinking they might be interested in what has happened with the aspirations of the original SLATE: How the motivation for a student cooperative has become a big seedy mega-business under the thumb of a decidedly undemocratic and anti-education religious cult. I remember a friend of mine wrote an article once about some peculiar standards regarding water quality, with the provocative title: 'Drink, but Don't Flush.' Wish I could think of something that good. How about 'PIRG's Members Unwittingly Fund Guru.' (I know, it's a little flat, but you can see the potential.) -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 00:44:23 (EST)
From: Runamok Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: STEAL Message: Slate is a 'sort of leftist/hip publication' owned by the largest monopoly in the world? Did I get that right? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 10:32:56 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Runamok Subject: STEAL Message: Runamok: Slate is a 'sort of leftist/hip publication' owned by the largest monopoly in the world? Did I get that right? That's right. Life is full of ironies. As far as I can tell SLATE (the magazine) is a quality product, edited my Michael Kinsley (who was W.F. Buckley, Jr.'s nemesis on the PBS series Firing Line). This is not to say that I agree with them about most of their opinions. The point is that they have a large readership, and might have an interest in the Amtext issue since it connects with SLATE's original cause. Besides, why do you think the left wouldn't find affinity with a monopoly? It may not be as ironic as you think. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Dec 13, 1998 at 02:12:35 (EST)
From: Runamok Email: djrayovac@aol.com To: Scott T. Subject: STEAL Message: Hey Scott, I put an email address if you want to correspond about this. It really doesn't make sense to 'store your eggs in a basket you have never met'. Does that make any sense? If you have a story to shop then you shop it around to anyone that will take it and look at it. Emailing or mailing to any potentially interested publication or party, with an info sheet which included links or url's would be helpful. I would certainly look to New Republic, Mother Jones, Village Voice ahead of a Microsoft Satellite. MSNBC acts more conservative than CNN if you're asking me. But anyway, making a package, electronic or otherwise, and then sending to any or all of the above and everybody else would seem the way to go. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Dec 13, 1998 at 16:39:04 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Runamok Subject: STEAL Message: Run: Those ideas sound good. I was just struck by the ironic aspect of SLATE. I'm not certain that it is an issue that would appeal to the left, in general, not unless there is a link between Amtext and big business. They'de be more likely to be jealous they didn't think of it first. The libertarian right might also receive it with a big yawn. They generally support the concept that people can chase whatever religious mirage they want to. Is there a way to demonstrate that students would get off cheaper with a different system? If so, you might get student groups involved. Frankly, I doubt it. Slave labor is hard to top. Secondly, being an academic I am used to sending articles to only one publication at a time, since it is considered unethical to do otherwise. Commercial publication is, of course, somewhat different. Still, on it's face most people will not care about a has-been Guru being involved with such an organization. In my opinion, it needs an angle that either has human interest or irony. Now, if Miragee were front and center as a big fat nasty cult leader, with his puss all over the media, that would be a different story. As it is, he's all-but-invisible. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Dec 13, 1998 at 21:37:11 (EST)
From: Runamok Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Press the issue Message: Scott, this is not about publishing-this is sending out iformation to see who wants to publish their own article. Just send it out as a press release, or as a teaser with info about the website. I dunno if you should feel unethical about duplicate submissions BUT this is not the same thing- somebody else can sign an article that may come out of this. This is just about making the info known to people who may be interested. Unless YOU want to actually write it up and submit somewhere.. and there are probably a zillion places on the internet asides from Bill Gates' sliding bathroom internet site. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 11:22:18 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Special Annoucement!! - Brian Message: I just got email from the fellow I mentioned yesterday who claims to have started Amtext on his own and had the idea ripped off by the premies. He advises that he's going to post something tonight about his experience. He also mentioned that he's arranged to have the head of MBS Book exchange which buys the books from Amtext as well as the president of Barnes and Noble which owns MBS visit the forum over the next few days to read the relevant thread(s). What he asked me was whether there was any way the Amtext thread, which is about to expire into the 'inactive's, could be moved up so these guys wouldn't miss it. I explained that it will still be easily read on the 'inactive' list for the next week roughly and then as an archived thread afterwards. All the same, I thought I'd ask if there was some way you or Katie could simply shift it around for easy access for these guys or something. If not, or if that's tricky, no big deal. It'll still be readily available. Interesting, huh? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 12:18:51 (EST)
From: RDS Email: RSMITH 1121@AOL.COM To: Jim Subject: Special Annoucement!! - Brian Message: I am the original premie book buyer. I BEgAN BUYING IN 1978, THREE YEARS AFTER I HAD left the ashram. I was still an active premie at the time. My income at the time was derived from buying booka and for receiving a finders fee from wholesalers for recruiting new buyers. I thought this would work at great for me and my fellow premies as they were ideally located in commnnities all over the U,S.A. and Canada. In May of 1979, I flew to Boston to inroduce the business to the premies in the ashram there. It was there that I FIRST MET AND introduced the business to Chuck Nathan,then the'housefather' in that ashram. It was my plan to recruit both premies and non-premies. I figured this was my business and I could run it any way I wanted. If I chose to donate some of thr profit afterwards to Maharaj Ji, Ithought that was up to me. How naive I was! When Chuck so the potential of the business, he contacted the head honchos at DLM who deceided to push me out of the picture and have Chuck run the Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 12:25:09 (EST)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: RDS Subject: Special Annoucement!! - Brian Message: Hi R - Your posts are getting cut off - I think it's probably because you're using Windows 3.1 with Internet Explorer. I just sent you an e-mail regarding this. Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 12:38:13 (EST)
From: RDS Email: rsmith ii21@aol.com To: RDS Subject: Special Annoucement!! - Brian Message: This is a continuation of my previous message. I did attempt to recruit buyers on my own but had little success. Chuck even used 'spies' who answered my newspaper ads for buyers. I guess I had become the enemy because I wanted to earn a living.Chuck even has continually recruited buyers in the region that I buy. This has probably reduced my income from buying by at least 60% ! I guess that is the thanks that I get for introducing him to the business! ' My finders fee from MBS Textbook Exchange was to be five per cent of the amount that MBS paid the buyers. Based on what I feel ia a conservative figure of Amtext buyers selling 15 million dollars per year to MBS for the past fifteen years, Amtext has diverted over 11 million dollars in fees from me and given almost all of it to Maharaj Ji! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 13:27:34 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: RDS Subject: Special Annoucement!! - Brian Message: my heart goes out to ya, RDS. i have been ripped off many times in the business world and it is particularly bothersome when it happens with someone or a group who has access to 'higher consciousness'. to me, agreements ought to hold with a handshake and eye contact. unfortunately, and to my chagrin, courts don't always honor such agreements. honor is rare in the business world. did you have any legal (written) rights to the bookbuying business? if you did, then you may have a case. if you did not, then you have a much weaker position in kali-yuga court-land. to a judge it may well be seen as a good idea discussed between two capitalists, and then it's every man for himself. ethics and business law are two different animals. did you ever try to communicate with maharaji or the existing organization at the time that did bsuiness on his behalf regarding chuck's alleged theft of your company? and most important to me is whether or not maharaji himself even knew about how you allege chuck got the business, or whether chuck acted independently and privately in his dealings with you. i hear there are lawyers on this site...i've run into a few here. i am sure they will be happy to provide information. i have had original ideas and inventions and have tried to patent them and go through all the expensive hoops that have been set in place by the powers that be. what a trip! i hear that in america, the 'little people' (i.e. without much cash) are the plankton for the corporate whales to feast on; whereas in europe, inventors and innovators are protected by the government and treated more like the treasures to a society that they are. to create an honest, viable and profitable way to support yourself at this time on earth is a great accomplishment. i congratulate you on the idea and hope you get what you deserve from it. i am not into religion of any sort, but i still see the wisdom in some words of jesus who said we have to be 'wise as serpents and harmless as doves' to function in this world without losing our shirts. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 14:51:32 (EST)
From: RDS Email: None To: shp Subject: Special Annoucement!! - Brian Message: Thanks for your support. I have two brothers that are very successfull attorneys and they boTH aRE certain that I have no case. I did try to contact top people at national headquarters at the time,several of whom I knew quite well, but none of them even bothered to respond to me. That was dishearetining at the time. I also wrotr Maharaj Ji but got no response. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 19:57:44 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: RDS Subject: Special Annoucement!! - Brian Message: Having had some dealings with Asian Businessmen myself I've learned that the ones who come over here to the West from India, require greater observation and care when dealing with them. In other words, you'd be a fool to trust them and they will think you a fool for having trusted them. And when's all said and done, Maharaji is just another Asian businessman. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 12:49:40 (EST)
From: RT Email: mmm To: Sir David Subject: Guru Business Inc. Message: Yes. Sir David, it is a franchise. The Serve-Us, Sh*tsang and Medication Franchise. In the fine tradition of Indian Scams, hundreds of years in test market, the real long term hustle. Free to join, fees and payments in time and effort, are added on bonuses. You get so deep you never think to question the Management. Competition: Common sense, www.Ex-premie.org, thinking. RT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 00:00:22 (EST)
From: srb Email: None To: RDS Subject: Special Annoucement!! - Brian Message: Your not the only guy I know who had a business stolen by the ashram. details later. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 00:08:20 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Jim Subject: Amtext posts Message: Jim, I saw the Amtext thread, but didn't follow it at all. If you want you can put together a file containing the relevant posts and offer to email it to interested parties. I could possibly put the file together if you told me which thread and posts you meant to have included. Email me if so. There is no means to move a thread around as you were suggesting so that it would return to the top of the active index. Neither can I archive and leave a particular thread in the inactives. They all have to go after archiving. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 04:08:58 (EST)
From: Barney Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Social Security List Lost Yrs Message: I just got something from the U.S. Social Security Adminstration (not sure what the equivalent is in other countries) and it details what benefits I will be eligible to receive when I retire at (cough, ugh, hack, gasp) age 70. And it is $1,675 per month which in the year 20-whatever probably will buy the bullet that will end up in my brain for being such an idiot and wasting too many years in pursuit of the higher truth. Anyway, the interesting data is for each year starting with 1951 it itemizes my annual income. Well, I'm not that old, but I would imagine that most of my non-premie peers probably started making decent amounts of money starting in the mid 1970's and started to accummulate assets like, for starters, a home. Yeah, sure and bad things can happen and you can lose it all, blah, blah, blah. As for me and my involvement in the Cult in 1973 and having quit college to pursue this sacred, holy truth, my entire earning for the '70s is about $10,000. Actually, it might be slightly higher for some odd jobs I might have done from time to time. At the time I lived cheaply in 'pre-ashrams' or premie houses with lots of other people. I would almost assume that a very significant portion of my income went for travelling to most of the programs/festivals/brainwashing sessions. And it was difficult to get a credible career going when (1) you always needed a week of vacation only two weeks after you started the your new job, (2) you had not finished college, (3) you had this bizarre, anti-money philosophy and belief that BM would see you through and you could care less about material wealth. Then most of the early '80s is zippo too because I was back in school on student loans and working as a Work Study. Then when I started to work in the late '80s I made a total of $40,000. So, in the '90s I finally moved to a state that had a lotto and I... Nah, I wish. Ok, I'm doing a little better in the '90s, but even if I work until I drop dead I lost the best money making years of my life and I am about 20 years behind where I should be in terms of building a nestegg with which to retire to something other than a homeless shelter. I contend that all of this happened over a period of 25 years while I was operating under a severe, insane delusion that BM was going make everything all right and I didn't need the knowledge from college and I didn't need a career and and I didn't need material wealth and I didn't need to save for retirement. Sure, I'll take my share of the blame - I was a fuckup, I was this and I was that, etc. One further gripe is that I'm competing against a workforce of people right out of college and I've got to work my ass off to try to stay ahead. I'm working 50 to 60 hours a week and I ain't got no life and consider myself as damaged goods. I mean how do you explain all this shit to the 'normies'? Wah, wah, wah! P.S. I got an extra ticket to BM's satellite broadcast this Sunday? I was gonna take a date, but she found this website and told me to go to hell. To which I replied, 'What do ya mean? I've already been there.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 12:54:51 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Barney Subject: Social Security List Lost Yrs Message: Barney, I can relate. I got that Social Security Statement as well. It is interesting to see my income during the 1973-1983 period. Some years it was zero, other years it wasn't bad, but of course I turned all the money over to the cult. I recall that in most of the ashrams I lived in, I had a relatively high income in comparison to the other premies, but even then it was pretty average. One interesting point. Prior to 1975, I think DLM was legally a religion according to the IRS code. Those of us in the ashram were told to complete withholding forms when we got jobs that said we were exempt from Federal income taxes because we were monastics of a legal church and so no taxes were withheld. I think we did have payroll taxes withheld, and I think also state income taxes. Anyhow, there were a bunch of ashram residents who left the ashrams in 1976, only to get letters from the IRS saying they owed taxes on the income they had earned in 1975 and before, because the IRS decided that DLM was NOT a religion. It didn't meet the qualifications, probably because the whole point of the 'religion' appeared to be to enrich Guru Maharaj Ji. Anyhow, do you think Maharaji or DLM paid these taxes on behalf of people who had lived under vows of poverty? Think again. But I think what you are saying is one of the most damaging parts of Maharaji's cult. I think this was especially true for premies who spent their entire 20s in the ashram or in other similar settings. People usually spend their 20s finishing their education, getting started in a career, establishing their family lives, etc. It's an extremely important period for setting the course for the rest of your life. For many of us, because we were dedicating our lives to Maharaji, that didn't happen. We dedicated to HIM, but he wasn't in the LEAST dedicated to US. When the advantage of the ashrams to him lessened, he just dumped all those people. I know this has been said repeatedly, but it's something that people shouldn't forget, much as Maharaji would like them to. There were a number of premie 'rich kids' I knew, that because of family money, could catch up easier in their 30s. They had parents who would send them to college, inherited money, etc. But those of us from working class families didn't have that luxury, so they had to do like you did. Go back to school, pay for their education through working at the same time, start a new career in their 30s, 10 years behind their peers. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 14:21:53 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: Barney Subject: Social Security List Lost Yrs Message: hi barney, i can relate. can't go into details on this post because i have to go to a part-time job while i am on unemployment indirectly due to my job-transient lifestyle indirctly due to my involvement with my teacher, but more because most of the jobs i have had were either low-pay or had tyrants at the helm or had environmental conditions that made me sick. nevertheless, i did get the same social security letter and i can relate. it was a choice i made. i figured that i'd rather have money problems with knowledge than no money problems without knowledge. to this day i am trying to put it all together - knowledge and a more comfortable lifestyle with more cash on hand and not living check to check and month to month. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 18:33:39 (EST)
From: petebear Email: None To: Barney Subject: Social Security List Lost Yrs Message: Well you could always retire in Australia. Your retirement income in Aussie dollars is about $680 per week which in Australia is just about the avarage wage. And is about 3 times the avarage retirement pension here. Cheers Peter Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 23:21:45 (EST)
From: dv Email: None To: petebear Subject: Social Security List Lost Yrs Message: Australia! I know a premie who has dual US-Australian citizenship. Does anyone know if that can still be done? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 23:17:39 (EST)
From: dv Email: None To: Barney Subject: Social Security List Lost Yrs Message: I totally empathize- maybe we can start a '20 years late' club specializing in high risk investments- we know all about them! From 93 to 95, I worked an average of 60-80 hours a week, and am just now winding down to about 55-65. Of course, many people on this planet work more hours than that, some because they love it. I just hope, being 44, that I can slow down sometime in the next decade... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 20:21:45 (EST)
From: Zac Email: None To: Barney Subject: Social Security List Lost Yrs Message: I hear you Barney and it sucks. I was in the same boat, still am. But as far as blaming it on Maharaji. I dunno know. First of all that lifestyle wasn't that bad. I still miss the great food. The lack of stress in the job, I could tell em to shove it and still have shelter, food and clothing. I lived in great homes very comfortable, lots of friends, travel....etc. But I've had to ask myself hard questions (Jim). How many of the ashram rules did I disregarded completely, rules that I understood before entering, chastity, poverty,( sorry to bring that one up) obedience. I should have been thrown out within two weeks of entering the ashram all sincere and pious. I would be surprised if 80-90% on the ashramites were much different than I. Eventually I was like a guy in a bad marriage who loves the woman but can't live with her. But at least there were no kids. I have friends with $1000 and $1500 per month child support payments. Talk about paying for the bullet. These guys will have no savings, no home paid for, and girlfriends run like hell when they find out the other woman owns their new boyfriends paycheck. Point is things could be worse. Your 10-20 years behind your peers in the worldy affairs but your light years ahead of them. You have knowledge. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 22:29:05 (EST)
From: dv Email: None To: Zac Subject: Social Security List Lost Yrs Message: Yeah, but maybe when these guys look into their girlfreinds eyes, they have something real to say. ( Sounds like a Marlboro Light commercial... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 17:12:32 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Zac Subject: Social Security List Lost Yrs Message: Like anything else, there will be different perspectives on this. I think Maharaji deserves blame for portraying himself as god incarnate, demanding total dedication, and to the extent people went against their own better judgment to try to do what he said, they were damaged. Now, you can say it wasn't all bad, which it wasn't, and you can say that things might have been worse, which is also possible, but that shouldn't let Maharaji off the hook for what he did. I actually hated the ashram lifestyle, especially the last 5 years or so, and I only stayed, literally, because Maharaji said that's what he wanted and that bad things would happen to you if you left. My dislike of the lifestyle was, therefore, due to my own misunderstanding, and I repressed my own values. Sure, some premies didn't follow all the ashram rules, but in my experience the vast majority of ashram residents sincerely tried to do what Maharaji was asking of them and by and large followed the rules. Yeah, it could have been worse, but you could say the same thing about being in prison. Sorry, but being 10-20 years behind one's peers does not get mitigated by having been revealed meditation techniques that are available elsewhere, and can be practiced just fine without devoting yourself to a charlatan master. Maharaji's insistence on devotion and surrender are reprehensible and damaged a lot of people. To this day, he won't even admit that. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 17:54:03 (EST)
From: Gail Email: None To: Zac Subject: Zac the comedian! We have K! Message: HaHaHa. You said: ...Things could be worse. Your 10-20 years behind your peers in the worldy affairs but your light years ahead of them. You have knowledge. Actually, we are years in head--by spending them watching the HIDDEN LIGHT and WAITING TO CATCH HIS ORDERS instead of seeing the light of day. If we live to collect our old-age pensions, we'll be WEEPING IN OUR JOY alright! May I suggest we train in pickpocketing or busking (begging with a flute or guitar). Has anyone seen Fagan? Oops, I mean MJ? PLEASE SIR I WANT SOME MORE. Money that is. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 20:30:52 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Zac Subject: Sorry, Zak, try again Message: Zak, Your post just doesn't cut it. May I? I hear you Barney and it sucks. I was in the same boat, still am. But as far as blaming it on Maharaji. I dunno know. First of all that lifestyle wasn't that bad. The lifestyle sucked! You've got to be kidding, Zak. No privacy, no sex, no personal development, no -- hell, why am I doing this? This is ridiculous proving the point so circumstantially. Don't you remember that the ashram was the place for... for what, Zak? Come on, think hard! Yes, that's right. The ashram was the place for surrendering your life to Guru Maharaj Ji. If you enjoyed any part of that process it was incidental, I can assure you. If a fake doctor fraudulently diagnosed you with something or other and admitted you to the hospital for surgery, and you had a fake operation but, on 'doctor''s strict orders languished in the hospital for years during a fake convalescence, it doesn't matter if you liked the food! Get it? I don't know about you but I had a lot better things to do with my time than attempt to merge with a phony creator in human form. I still miss the great food. Besides, the food wasn't 'great'. What the fuck are you talking, boy? The top shelf had a few fairly decent items reserved for mahatma-ji. The rest was fairly proasaic vegetarian fare. Hey, Zak, 'doctor's orders'. The lack of stress in the job, I could tell em to shove it and still have shelter, food and clothing. What absolutely low expectations you had from life! Here's a little thought experiment: say you've got a kid now the same age as you when you entered the cult and the ashram. Say 19 or 20. How happy would you be to know that your kid, with all that he or she could do in the world had instead opted for the comfort of a cult where the food was 'great', he wouldn't have to worry abvout getting fired and would never starve or go naked? Personally, I'd feel fine with that deal IF my kid was extremely retarded. Otherwise, I'd be more than a little disappointed. Wouldn't you? I lived in great homes very comfortable, lots of friends, travel....etc. What?? You lived in large homes with no furniture save a sheet-covered chair for Maharaji and a million pictures of his fat, greasy ass. You probably shared a room with a few other guys. Thnik about it, Zak. Friends? Yes, I agree. There was a lot of camaraderie. We had community, no one can deny it. However, the premises supporting that community were so off base, so bizarre -- think about the remaining Heaven's Gaters. They miss their friends and I feel sorry for them. But, really, man, those friendships were forged in crazy circumstances. How many of your friends from then will even talk to you now, knowing that you're questioning the Poifect Hamster? And those that will, will they talk with you THOROUGHLY? I've been nothing but disappointed in almost all my old premie friends. Travel? Give me a fucking break again, mon ami. I went to Marbella, Spain. What'd I see? An orange grove, a bullring and one fat Hamster. I went to Rome and what'd I see? The convention centre, the pasta trucks and the pasta that came off those pasta trucks. I went to Guru Puja in London and what'd I see? The Ally Pally, Trafalgar Square (for a big cult rally) and some dismal campground at the end of the tube line. I went to Atlantic City, Miami, her ethere and everywhere and what did I do? I prided myself on the fact that I did nothing but adjust my blinders for the local climate. But I've had to ask myself hard questions (Jim). How many of the ashram rules did I disregarded completely, rules that I understood before entering, chastity, poverty,( sorry to bring that one up) obedience. I should have been thrown out within two weeks of entering the ashram all sincere and pious. I would be surprised if 80-90% on the ashramites were much different than I. I'm not sure what your point is here however I think I can guess what it is and it sickens me. Are you actually saying that perfect adherence to the ashram regimen would leave no residual disappointment? Is that really what you're saying? Eventually I was like a guy in a bad marriage who loves the woman but can't live with her. But at least there were no kids. I have friends with $1000 and $1500 per month child support payments. Talk about paying for the bullet. These guys will have no savings, no home paid for, and girlfriends run like hell when they find out the other woman owns their new boyfriends paycheck. TERRIBLE FUCKING ANALOGY!!!Absolutely rotten. I won't even begin to explain why. It's so off the wall, I'm going to give you a chance to simply retract it and we don't have to discuss it again. If you don't, I'll go through the exercise. Point is things could be worse. Your 10-20 years behind your peers in the worldy affairs but your light years ahead of them. You have knowledge. Bullshit! Knowledge is nothing. We've been had. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 21:14:58 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: Sorry, Zak, in a different way Message: Zak, You ARE new to the page and, to be fair, I think that the onion unpeels gradually sometimes. It's hard to strip the veneer off memories no matter how well we now understand the deception involved. I'm not asking you to deny for a second the smiles, the laughs, the warmth you felt over the years in the ashram. On the other hand, though, if you're really going to look at it, you have to look at it FAIRLY. It's fair to say it could have been worse. It's also fair to say that's not the point. Besides, if it WAS worse it might not have held up even as well as it did. Maybe 'worse' would ahve been 'better' in terms of falling apart sooner. Who knows? What we DO know is that it was all bullshit. And no, Knowledge, is not knowledge. It's a hindu parlour trick. Maybe you like it. Maybe you like getting your back cracked. You know? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 23:02:12 (EST)
From: Zac Email: None To: Jim Subject: Sorry, Zak, try again Message: Knowledge is nothing and nothing is knowledge and we can go round and round on that for eternity... So let's go. Are you saying you felt nothing from knowledge? Is that what is going on at this forum? No one felt anything? They just followed Maharaji because he said so? Am I in OZ? Again? Say it ain't so. If we're cutting through the bullshit great, but I cannot deny the experience I have had and continue to have with whatever the hell this is. If you have no idea what I am talking about fine, what can I say, I thought this was a place premies (who have experienced knowledge) and were tired of the unbelievable frigging buuuullllsssshhhiiittt could process stuff from wherever they are coming from. I hope we're not trying to form another cult here trying to hammer people into thinking a certain way. Been there. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 23:24:30 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Zac Subject: Sorry, Zak, try again Message: Zac, Jim's opinion is one opinion, okay? Everyone posting here is an individual. I have had some great experiences with the meditation (I prefer to call it a meditation technique rather than 'KNOWLEDGE' which sounds so fucking pretentious). I still meditate when I feel like it. A lot of us here are not dissing the value of meditation. It's all the other baggage that went along with it that was so NOT worth it. From what I've read a lot of people on the forum don't meditate anymore because it brings up too many associations with Maharaji. Remember it was all about total surrender: does that scare you, or did that part feel okay to you? Certainly there were some positives about the trip, but again I think the negatives outweighed them. The cost for a lot of folks was very high. I hope you keep posting here, it IS a great place to sort it all out. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 08:47:37 (EST)
From: Zac Email: None To: Helen Subject: Total Surrender Message: Can you believe I had forgotten that it was about totally surrendering your life to the master. At least I haven't considered it in 10 years or so. In fact any time I hear something like that brought up by a premie who was there, it's in the context of a joke. Haven't really thought about it. It's certainly out of the question in any practical way as far as I am concerned. At the time though I remember trying to surrender the reigns of my life. Did not work! Now I am remembering. The mind attacks, the guilt, 'trying to have an experience' holy shit get me outta here. There that's better. Anyway Helen thanks for the post if I am not posting I will be reading. Jim thanks for the posts. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 09:16:52 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Zac Subject: Total Surrender Message: Total surrender messed up a lot of people psycholgically, physically, financially, socially. It was a horrible thing to do to folks because so often it resulted in a kind of fatalism. Ever notice how there was a fine line between surrender and a total lack of concern for oneself? How unhealthy this was! Letting go of the wheel of one's car as a giant semi approaches, throwing one's arms up in the air, and announcing 'Maharaji will save me!' only resulted in a lot of crash victims. COmmon sense indicates that us vulnerable human beans, born without claws and fur, need to be strong & bond together to survive. To me, life is so full of challenges, I needed GM's trip like a hole in the head. It's taken me a long time to toughen up and deal with life on life's terms. I won't be surrendering to any human being ever again. He can kiss my ass before I'll kiss his feet! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 09:30:28 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Zac Subject: Total Surrender(addendum) Message: Zac, Also us human beans need to use every ounce of intelligence we have to solve the daily problems of life. Guru trips seem to me now to be total intelligence/achievement robbers, putting the brain to sleep. Kids' brains are two times as busy as adult's, making neural connections at lightning speed. Brain cells are designed to make connections and babies are born with 100 billion brain cells which busily start forming into networks after they're born. It's pretty cool to me that there is an emotional component to the building of these networks--more nurturing=more networks. It wasn't until grad school when I was forced to push myself, that I realized how much fun learning could be...a lot more 'blissful' that that spaced out bliss feeling from GMs trip. By the way Zac, one of my daughter's best friends is named Zac. Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 09:32:22 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Zac Subject: Total Surrender(addendum) Message: Sorry, I meant to say that last post was from me, not you! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 13:41:22 (EST)
From: Barney Email: None To: Helen Subject: Total Surrender(addendum) Message: Your comments on 'surrender' were excellent. Thanks. It has, indeed, be quite awhile since I've been directly subjected and tried to make my life conform to the concept. Thanks for reminding me so effectively of how it was. And, it is divine. And, it is a mindfuck. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 16:13:11 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Barney Subject: Total Surrender(addendum) Message: Mindfuck--yes indeed. Our brains were not made for that stuff in the first place. God, the roller coaster was such a preoccupation, such a distraction from the business of living!!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 14:13:07 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Helen Subject: Fixed it, and thanks Message: Dear Helen - I fixed the Helen/Zak reversal. Also wanted to thank you for your posts in this and other threads - very insightful, not to mention well expressed. Take care, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 16:08:31 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Katie Subject: Fixed it, and thanks (ot) Message: Thanks Katie for fixing my goof. I always seem to be in such a rush that I don't have time to proofread a lot of the time and sometimes I wonder if my posts make any sense at all! Thanks for the encouragement. Yours are always very honest: Liked your cave story and also your comments to Bill @ menopausal women. By the way, I know I keep harping about Walker Percy but his book the Second Coming has a lot of cave imagery--the main character literally goes into a cave and comes out (is reborn). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 17:08:15 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Helen Subject: Fixed it, and thanks Message: Hi Helen - Your posts are great! A lot of times you express what I would would want to say, but much more clearly (technical writing has ruined my style, if I ever had one). You write very well. Love, Katie P.S. I am glad you liked the cave story (it is true), but I just realized that it's almost word for word from my Journeys entry, which I hadn't looked at for a long time! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Dec 13, 1998 at 01:11:14 (EST)
From: Gail Email: None To: Jim Subject: Jim, I'm laughing so hard, I Message: nearly ???? You're the best! Have you considered Second City? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 04:38:09 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Gail Subject: Jim, I'm laughing so hard, I Message: Dear Gail, There is an excercise you should know about.... :). Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 01:03:17 (EST)
From: peter Email: None To: Everyone Subject: The Buddha trumps M Message: Let me start off with a disclaimer. I don't hardly know a thing about the Buddha except that there have been a number of tussles about him here on the site that I didn't read. I am definitely not trying to antagonize the combatants of either persuasion. However, I came across the following quote, stripped of any context and attributed to the Buddha: 'Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it--even if I have said it--unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.' Wow. Now, that's a completely different flavor from big M. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 01:27:22 (EST)
From: w Email: na To: peter Subject: The Buddha trumps M Message: 'Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it--even if I have said it--unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.' ================================================================ That positively resonates positively with me. I think so anyway…. Thank you for your effort in posting this. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 01:44:09 (EST)
From: w Email: na To: all Subject: The Buddha trumps M Message: 'Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it--even if I have said it--unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.' ======================================================== I must say that if I remember right, Guru Maharaj Ji did at least on one occasion share a story in which that same message was their, I am not positive though. I do not think he will share that story on December 13, 1998 at the World Wide Video Event. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 17:56:45 (EST)
From: Richard Email: None To: peter Subject: The Buddha trumps M Message: You got it wrong. No beliefs,no promises, no expectations. Try listening. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 22:45:28 (EST)
From: peter Email: None To: Richard Subject: you're the wrong Richard Message: I was looking forward to a post from Richard, who is smart, thoughtful, funny, and kind. Instead I got a post from Richard, who is self-satisfied, superior, and has his head up his butt. Try listening. I've been listening. What I heard Maharaji say is that he is/was (1) The Lord of the Universe, and (2) greater than God. He also said to leave no room for doubt, which is the exact opposite of what the Buddha said as quoted in my post that you're answering. No beliefs,no promises, no expectations. It would seem that saying that you're the Lord of the Universe is a promise that would (and did) create beliefs and expectations. I want beliefs, promises, and expectations in any leader, spiritual or secular. No beliefs, no promises, no expectations = no nothing, leader-wise. Which is in fact the case with Maharaji. There's nothing there to follow. Except a mirage IN YOUR MIND. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 17:15:06 (EST)
From: Gail Email: None To: Peter Subject: you're the wrong Richard Message: You said a mouthful, Peter. Why all the driving effort to keep up with this twit if there are no beliefs, no promises, no expectations--JUST TO LISTEN TO HIM? After you've heard his message a few times (it's soooooo beautiful), why the need for repetition? I know--for brainwashing purposes. I teach my pet parrot how to talk the same way he taught me. I ended up incorporating his expressions in my dialogue, holding his point of view on many subjects including the colour green (he doesn't like it), and stupidly reiterating his stories to anyone who would listen. Regardless of what an individual does for a living there are beliefs, promises and expectations on both sides of the fence. I should think that the LORD OF THE UNIVERSE (who has the most to offer, holds the highest office in the world with the greatest responsibility to humanity, and makes the biggest promises)--this dude should be held accountable. Maharaji and I entered a contract the day I received K back in 1974. He promised to take us from darkness to light and blah, blah, blah. At different times, I tried very hard to meet his expectations. All it did for me was make me increasingly dysfunctional and lighten my pocketbook. I did keep my end of the bargain; he didn't keep his. What has he done for you? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 04:26:42 (EST)
From: srb Email: None To: peter Subject: NOT a buddha quote. Message: That is definately NOT, NOT a buddha quote. A lot of western buddha lite types are into rewriting the actual facts about buddha's words because truly buddha own words can't stand the light of day. But, they are written down. And they are just pathetic. Only in a land where brahmanism reigns can you get a buddha logic to catch on like that. It is foolishness and you would quickly see that if you had a good buddha history book with his exact words. They are tough to find of course. Libraries are the only place possible because no western buddhist will print it although you find dozens of so called-buddhist books and mags in the new age book stores and the religious sections of retailers. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 18:09:59 (EST)
From: Steve Meiller Email: meiller@mmsi.com To: Everyone Subject: Still Ex after all these years Message: I left the Denver ashram in 1974 (I think) after serving a couple of years in Tucson & Denver. Went to Prem Nagar in 72, worked on the stage crew at the Astrodome, yada yada yada. Two things shock me here. First, I didn't know much about the sordid history of DLM (or DUO as we were calling it when I left) after my time there. Second, I'm amazed that there are all these people still wrapped up in identifying themselves as 'ex-premies'. So what? I'm an ex junkie, too, but don't want to spend my life talking about it. Nobody coerced me, mistreated me, or did anything to me I didn't want done. I liked it while it lasted and I suspect most of you did, too. It's OVER folks. Put it behind you. Love & Kisses. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 19:24:54 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Steve Meiller Subject: Still Ex after all these years Message: Not to shake you yet again, Steve, but before you pat yourself too soundly on the back you might want to reflect a bit on what it's like to NOT be the very together person you seem to pride yourself to be. Happy to hear that you left around '74. Are you also possibly 'shook' to hear that many people didn't 'leave' until 10 years later when Maharaji THREW THEM OUT AFTER SUCKING THEM DRY? That they left the ashrams that he closed and took with them only the clothes on their backs and bills for thousands of dollars for the cost of having worked all those years to keep the ashrams open because he said they should? Who cares?? Fuck em, cause you got yours?? So what were you doing at Millennium? Did you gain any valuable work experience during your service that you could use out in the real world to earn a living? What do you think about those stupid ex's who walked out into the world and could only write 'pranaming' on their resumes? Who cares?? Fuck em, cause you got yours?? Did you encourage anyone to get caught up in throwing years of their lives away doing service to Maharaji? What became of them? Who cares?? Fuck em, cause you got yours?? An ex-junkie! Congratulations. Was it hard to quit? Did anyone help you? What do you think about those idiots out there still hooked on junk? Who cares?? Fuck em, cause you got yours?? Did you just wander in here because some browser bug brought you to this site, or did you do a web search? Why did you do that, when you're so 'over' it? Nostalgia? What do you think about people who aren't as 'over' it as you? Who cares?? Fuck em, cause you got yours?? You're a model for us all, Steve. May we all be so together someday. As an ex-ANYTHING, your credibility has been established. And so has your callousness. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 21:10:38 (EST)
From: nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Brian Subject: aw fuck it... Message: I'm going to email you instead. (that was one wonderful post) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 21:26:39 (EST)
From: david m Email: None To: Brian Subject: Still Ex after all these years Message: Hey Brian.... Incredible....couldnt of said it better myself..glad Steve's doing so well.....Keep on truckin man....peace dave Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 19:38:20 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Brian Subject: Impeach Ex? Message: Very good, Brian. Steve certainly demonstrates callousness, and he deserves to be punished, perhaps censured, but do you think his behavior rises to the level of impeachment? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 19:34:43 (EST)
From: gerry Email: None To: Steve Meiller Subject: Grrrrrr Message: Hi Steve, I left about the same time you did and I hadn't thought about M in years either. Funny, like you, I did a search on Guru Maharaji and found this site. It kinda grows on ya. So to respond to your comments, I agree, the history after we left got stranger and stranger and it is an interesting story, especially since we were once there. Now this 'Ex' thing. Do you really think I identify as an 'Ex' ? I mean, I AM one but I'm also lots of other things besides. I can fairly safely say I bet others here feel the same. You and I got off cheaply. Instead of judging other participants here, you should be grateful. Because a lot WERE coerced, mistreated and hurt AFTER we left. Do you realize that some of the people here have spent 25 years or more in the cult? Talk about damage and loss. It WAS a cult, in case you've forgotten, and it got a lot heavier after we left. So you chosen to give advice and tell others to ''move on.'' How trite on your part and real easy for you to say. We hear it all the time here. It's not original or valid. Who asked for your fucking advice anyway, huh? There, you've gone and made me cuss, which I have not done for a couple of weeks now. People are using this site to get free from the cult and to sort out the mind fuck from the years wasted following the greaseball. And it's a lot of fun. There are some fine and interesting people here and they are my friends. So if you don't like it, get lost. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 11:42:07 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: gerry Subject: Grrrrrr Message: Dear Gerry, My sentiments EXACTLY! Thanks. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 22:35:35 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Steve Meiller Subject: You guys are too harsh on him Message: Steve, I'm reading your post a little differently than my esteemed brethren here. I remember when I first met Gerry I was interested in his involvement on the ex site just because he'd never really been involved all that long to begin with. I know that at a certain point it makes sense to at least consider the question of balancing one's pursuit of truth and justice regarding this one period of one's life and just letting it go. For myself, I felt like I was a premie for so long -- eight years at least -- I reckon I lost a good chunk of life there. But guys like you and Gerry? I don't know. I also don't know if I wouldn't think just like you if I'd gotten out when you did. Let's talk about you and Gerry, though, for a minute. Maybe it's just a matter of taste, you know? Some people like to read history, some people fiction and some nothing at all. Wouldn't it be completely fair for Gerry to find enough interest in this one quirky, quixotic episode in his life to really delve into it? No one can dispute that it makes sense for you, let's say, to feel otherwise. Can't it just be an interest thing? For myself, I really like the idea of being a thorn in Maharjai's side. Yes, I'm willing to sacrifice some (a lot?) of my time and energy playing this role in life. For now, at least. Maybe that's just because I DID spend so much longer than you did in the cult. Can you imagine what four more tours as long as yours might have been like? It's hard, isn't it? Well, some of us had the dubious honour of living our entire adult youth under this fucker's mental lock and key. Think about it. As for our stated identities, I think you're being a little unfair again. We're ex's here but all sorts of other things in other aspects of our lives. Your criticism would only hold up if we let our ex-ness take over all the other roles we play. You have no reason for thinking it does as far as I know. You don't, do you? Finally, the question of coercion. Steve, be realistic. Maharaji took you for a ride on false pretenses. If you enjoyed yourself in the process it's almost beside the point. First, you couldn't have enjoyed it all that much or else you wouldn't have risked leaving the 'Living Lord' for whatever reasons you had then. That was a big gamble you took in '74. Correct me if I'm wrong, but for all you knew Maharaji was legit and you were flying into the darkness. Why'd you do it if you were so happy? And tell me you never had pangs of guilt or confusion in the months, maybe even years, following. Don't forget that, Steve. Furthermore, please don't fool yourslef about jut how much fun you had trying to surrender your mind. Again, can you recall the confusion and anguish you must have experienced as you felt the clamp tighten? I take it that you did let it tighten. A bit anyway. That's what the ashram was all about, wasn't it? Be fair and accurate here, please. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 23:12:23 (EST)
From: gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: Gee, I thought I was nice. NT Message: nt Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 13:51:03 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: gerry Subject: Gee, I thought I was nice. Message: I thought you were nice too, Gerry (except for that one sentence containing a cuss word, that is - old habits die hard, I guess). Remember your first post here? It was similar to Steve's, although more joking. You came back and admitted that you'd misjudged right away, and I appreciated that. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 17:31:10 (EST)
From: gerry Email: None To: Katie Subject: Gee, I thought I was nice. Message: Miss Katie, How well I remember my first post! Probably much better than thee. Indeed, I said 'get over it, and quit yer whining' but if you truly and accurately recall, the post was totally tongue-in-cheek, full of spelling and grammatical errors and not serious at all. I apologized for my ruse because it obviously irked more than a few people, a little more than I intended, especially being a 'newbie.' Please Katie, pleeeeeeeeze don't make me ''similiar to steve.'' And please don't make me go digging into the archives. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 17:38:27 (EST)
From: gerry Email: None To: Katie Subject: Plus Message: I was pretending to be a PREMIE, remember? This totally proves my point and I'm off the hook for the horrible, hurtful, monsterous, painful, self-esteem diminishing, nightmare producing, mean little trick your scheming, devilish, pay-back oriented mind has thunk up. Katie all I can say to you is GET A LIFE, GET OVER IT, MOVE ON, AND ENJOY THIS LIFE. so there. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 16:30:25 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: gerry Subject: Gerry! Message: I was trying to compliment you! Sheesh! I didn't say that YOU were similar to Steve, I said your post was. (I didn't know you were trying to be a premie in that post, either - sometimes it's hard to tell, as you may have experienced.) Take no offense, please! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 16:41:36 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: Katie & Gerry Subject: Play nice, you two... Message: See, I get 'my' turn to be the voice of sanity.... he he he. ;-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 16:58:45 (EST)
From: gerry Email: None To: Katie Subject: absolutely no offense taken! Message: Well maybe a little... YOU DIDN'T THINK I SOUNDED LIKE A PREMIE? I'm crushed! I even followed the suggestion to lurk and read a while before posting! I was doing my best premie imitation. Granted, I could do a better job now, but fer chrissakes, Katie, it's been 25 years! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 16:47:07 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Katie Subject: Steve Message: Katie: Like Mike, I have serious doubts about whether Steve is actually an ex. I didn't have a hatchet to burn either way when I found the site, but reading your notes about the Forum and it's purpose, as well as the radio interview of Mishler, gave me enough purchase on the situation that I would have felt extremely perverse to have looked down my knows at the folks who were posting. Basically this guy didn't show the normal restraint I would expect of anyone unfamiliar with what's going on here, so my conclusion is that he's a premie, very familiar with the site, masquerading as an ex. It's almost a done deal. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 23:45:56 (EST)
From: Sir D Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Jim Subject: You're too nice, Jim Message: I wouldn't have bothered to write all of that but then I have a strong aversion to people critisising me when they don't know what they're talking about. So the less than half a decade ex-premie doesn't know what the score really is but you have put it quite succinctly there. And you did bring up an important question - if he liked Maharaji's trip so much, why did he leave after only four years? Other premies who post here could be asked a similar question. Did they ever try to surrender their lives to Maharaji's will for several consecutive years? People who did, know the rough ride tha tensued and the more you surrendered the heavier it got. Maharaji won't be able to create another mass surrender trip again with our presence on the net. He knows he'd never get away with it again. Just thinking, that Maharaji person has some gall. He pretended to be God for over a decade and took it to the limit and had thousands of sincere, weeping people kissing his feet because they believed he was the Lord. And now he pretends it just never happens and refuses to acknowledge our complaint. There is a sayin, 'Something's got to give' and I think we'll see something give way pretty soon. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 16:10:58 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Steve Meiller Subject: Still Ex after all these years Message: Steve: Second, I'm amazed that there are all these people still wrapped up in identifying themselves as 'ex-premies'. So what? I'm an ex junkie, too, but don't want to spend my life talking about it. So, go talk about something else... somewhere else. Who's stopping you? Like you I got out pretty early and don't especially regret my time 'in.' But, I was just lucky... and certainly don't consider myself superior to any of the people here. I hang around because I like the company. You, I can do without. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 16:29:47 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Well said, Scott Message: Scott: Holier-than-thou sounds even dumber coming from an ex that it does coming from a premie (and THAT is hard to believe!). Actually, I think this may be an active premie masquerading as an ex because the 'refrain' is sooooo familiar, don't you think? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 14:42:46 (EST)
From: d@vid Email: expremie@geocities.com To: Everyone Subject: ex-ex-premie site Message: The old CultWatch site curently sleeping peacefully at Geocities is about to expire. Is there any point in my renewing my subscription to keep it alive or should I let it sink gracefully beneath the waves of cyber-history? If anyone thinks that it has any use, please let me know by leaving a message here on the forum or by sending an email to expremie@geocities.com. D@vid Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 15:03:34 (EST)
From: D@vid Email: None To: d@vid Subject: ex-ex-premie site p.s. Message: For anyone who hasn't experienced the pleasures of wandering these ancient plains, click here. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 22:30:53 (EST)
From: Sir D Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: D@vid Subject: Why not keep some Message: I think any site which reveals what Maharaji's up to is a good thing. Why not keep some of it, especially the techniques etc and change the rest so that it won't be confused with this current ex-premie site. It's a good site and I think it would be a shame to lose all of it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 15:16:14 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: d@vid Subject: Please let it go, d@vid Message: I would appreciate it if you would let it die a peaceful death. It's presence on the web causes confusion as to what is or isn't 'this site'. There are Journeys entries there that have since been revised or removed on this site at the authors request. The same is true of White Pages entries. Some people have chosen to lapse into an anonymity that those pages deny them. I am unable to make the requested changes to the pages on Geocities. The largest and perhaps hardest part of turning web pages over to another person, to maintain and to take responsibility for, is releasing them. I realize that you and I have been at odds over the changes that I have made to the site since I took over for you as webmaster. This conflict isn't something that I enjoy, and would prefer that we could work together over our differences. The time and effort you put into the site did not go unappreciated by me or the others who used it in the process of sorting out our feeling about Maharaji. I wasn't blessed with some great ability when I took over - just a willingness to learn, and the help and encouragement offered by Katie. I'm willing to cooperate with you regarding pages that you honestly and strongly feel should still be available here, although we would have to work out what parts we each feel is objectionable. I think we can both respect each others motives and viewpoints enough to do that. Where we can't, there is always Katie to serve as a voice of reason. I trust her, and I know that you do too. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 16:31:08 (EST)
From: d@vid Email: None To: Brian Subject: Please let it go, d@vid Message: Thanks for the response Brian. If anyone contacts you wanting their name taken off the old site, just let me know. I didn't realise it was a problem. You say that we've been at odds over the changes you initiated but beyond a little egotistical pique, I've been more than happy to let you play it your way. The site has expanded and grown and seems to be generating more interest than ever, and that's the most important thing. If I don't get any further responses, I'll let the site sink gracefully into the cyber-depths. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 21:39:15 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: d@vid Subject: Not so fast Message: Well, I liked your site because it had those funny pictures of you doing some strange things to your face. Also it had that Nigerian Maharaji story which now stands for something quite important given what Adole told us (i.e. the transmutability of the Maharaji virus). And then it had that fake interview with Maharaji which was good for a laugh if I don't say so myself. What else was there? But, having said all that, I really get Brian's point. It's got to be counter-productive having two ex-premie sites even if one's pretty well dormant. What's your address again? Maybe some more people would like to check out Cult Watch on its death bed, scavange for a few things, you know. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 21:43:21 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: David Subject: Oh yeah Message: When I first saw the title of your post the first thought that crossed my mind is 'Oh great. Someone's started a web page for ex premies who've seen the light again.' Wouldn't that be something? Imagine what any one of us would have to do to return to the fold. It's an interesting exercise, considering the amount of information and understanding we've gathered. Anything's possible but that'd be a tough one, wouldn't it? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 00:18:45 (EST)
From: Runamok Email: None To: Jim Subject: Please Post Link Message: Why don't you post a link so we can take a look while we have a chance to comment? I have been to your site but it's been awhile. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 01:34:37 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: D@vid Subject: Keep the techniques pages!! Message: I thought those pages were of great value. They pulled my head out of my ass--like a big slap in the face. Thanks for the time that went into those, because I swear they saved me. Guess I'm partial to them. Like you might feel about the paramedic who gave you CPR :) Thanks again, D@vid Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 12:29:27 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: VP Subject: Keep the techniques pages!! Message: Hi VP - I agree that the knowledge pages are great - ya gotta love those great pictures. If I had to pick my favorite page on D@vid's site, those would be it. However, Jean-Michel has preserved them on his site - they are at: knowledge session They are towards the bottom of the page, under all those pictures of mahatmas. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 13:35:21 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: Katie Subject: Mickey's commentary Message: Katie: I think that Mickey's commentaries concerning the mistranslations and bible context are a real eye-catcher, too. These pages are becoming more and more professional (and undeniable). Really great stuff! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 21:07:17 (EST)
From: CD Email: None To: Mike Subject: another view of Word Message: you just might be a prozac guy if 1. Mickey's commentaries are a 'real eye-catcher' for you 'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.' (John 1:1) Mickey raps: 'The Word is logos in Greek and there are 2.75 pages of definition for this word in Bauer’s Greek-English Lexicon. The concept of the preexistent logos in Christian theology and Christology is a complicated subject, but it is not sitting in the lotus position breathing ‘so-hun!’' Mickey did get the last part right. Just imagine his commentary on the 'Tao'. I remember being taught that the 'Word' was that beautiful feeling of life inside each human being. And ultimately everyone had to decide for themselves what the reality of that experience was. Another brain teaser according to a particular translation: 'Therefore, oftentimes without intention I see the wonder of Tao. Oftentimes with intention I see its manifestations.' Mickey is a nice guy and has the right to believe whatever makes him happy. CD is a nice guy and has the right to believe whatever makes him happy. Words are inherently ambiguous. Yet we have life in the midst of the Uni-Verse. CD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 10:10:50 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: CD Subject: Prozac? Message: CD: You just couldn't say anything without a personal insult, could you? Nope, no prozac here.... What, EXACTLY, are you trying to say, CD? Mickey has a degree in this subject and is a TRAINED translator of the bible from its original text. I think that he is quite qualified to let us know what the heck a passage from that book means, in plain english. Compared to him, everyone else here is an amateur with this particular subject matter. If YOU read a book concerning a particular astrophysical subject and made an error in your interpretation thereof, would you then call me a bozo because 'I' (a trained astrophysicist) corrected your misinterpretation? Yeah, you probably would.... based upon your track record here. CD, you don't know squat about biblical translation, hebrew or greek. Microsoft doesn't train hebrew and greek. Stick with that which you are trained to know, ask questions about that which you know-not! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 15:18:56 (EST)
From: CD Email: None To: Mike Subject: Pro Message: Mike, Not meant as a personal insult, a dumb joke if you look at it from a different angle ( You are a redneck ...) >What, EXACTLY, are you trying to say, CD? I am saying that just because Mickey has connected the dots to words and references in his particular manner of interpretation does not mean that his picture is the winner. I met Mickey once and found him to be a nice bright fellow. That I disagree with his methods and conclusions is another matter entirely. > Microsoft doesn't train hebrew and greek. Stick with that which you are trained to know, ask questions about that which you know-not! I learned most all of the computer stuff on my own through lots of self study and a huge personal library investment. I studied Economics, Management Science and Systems Engineering (control theory) during 7 years at the University of California San Diego. I graded the exams for the 3rd year engineering partial differential equations class and was also a TA for Linear Algebra among other courses. I spent quite a lot of time studying optimization theory and Hilbert Space stuff. I had a couple year sequence in world history and literature, political science courses and even a stint in fruit fly genetics lab and organic chemistry. I have done quite a lot of work on a computer system to translate Chinese to English (LISP) and have gotten a much better feel for the ambiguous nature of language. I don't need to be an astrophysicist to know that there is magic in the irrational numbers. This is a great Uni-Verse. Cheers, CD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 15:58:57 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: CD Subject: Pro Message: OK CD, you actually made my point... If I were to desire information concerning the numerous areas that you mentioned, I would likely ask YOU. In terms of biblical translation, I would trust Mickey's expertise (at least, in terms of the 'hard core' translation). Ya have ta trust da guys dat know, ya know? YES... Red Neck and proud of it.... Let's see now: New-Age, Red-Neck, Astrophysicist.... It just gets better and better! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 20:52:50 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: CD Subject: Wrong on both points, CD Message: Mickey is a nice guy and has the right to believe whatever makes him happy. CD is a nice guy and has the right to believe whatever makes him happy. The 'right' to believe something is unnecessarily confusing phraseology. You have the 'right' to believe that two and two make five, but you don't have any rational justification for thinking that. You couldn't defend that opinion on any basis other than the most trivial 'right' a person has to think and spout nonsense. Put another way, I suppose you have the 'right' to be a born-again follower of Jim Jones, David Koresh AND Marshall Applewhite although you'd have one hell of a hard time justifying such stupidity. Words are inherently ambiguous. Oh, what a tired, threadbare yarn you keep on spinning! Words, if you must know, are inherently VAGUE, not ambiguous. But so what? YOU ARE SUCH A COWARD, trying to hide like that! Chris, you are truly a weenie, aren't you? Come on, I'm not being ambiguous or vague, are I? By 'weenie' I mean a snivelling, backbone less creep, too afraid to intereact with people like a full human beign but given to sporadic little pot shots that are always dull and ineffectual. But that's not what makes you a weenie. That just makes you weird. The weeine part is the stupid smile you get on your face when you carry on so. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 12:23:00 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Runamok Subject: Link is in second post Message: He did post the link - it's in the second post in this thread. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 14:12:03 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: Everyone Subject: animal farm here? Message: it seems that some ex-premies are more equal than others... ol' jim goes on and on about his sexual fantasies, inside jokes with other exers and whatever else tickles his fancy, then scolds others like myself for what he considers disgressing and otherwise displeasing his lawyership, all the while assuming a snobbish attitude. so now i am being shunned by 'jimji' who accused me of something using an 'inside' term (keithland) i told him i did not even know the meaning of. works in court maybe, but not appropriate here if i may say so. i know he is an icon on this site, and i will get flak for this, buy hey! who needs another icon? just us mortals here trying to connect, or so i thought. there is a solution to this, but it would take humility on the part of someone who makes a living being aggressive and arrogant as well as intelligent and charming. so in this particular case how is jimji so different from he whom you deny and renounce with such vehmence? and what the hell does 'keithland' mean? btw, i am a very forgiving guy, just like kids on a playground, we can all be playing nice again with a little consideration given. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 14:26:03 (EST)
From: Complaint Review Board Email: None To: shp Subject: Complaint Noted Message: The following complaints have been registered with the Complaint Review Board: 1) How come Robyn gets all the guys? There are more than enough gopis to go around. 2) Whoever sent that joke: How do you get a nun pregnant? Dress her up as an altar boy is requested to send further correspondence to this Board for consideration. 3) One former devotee of Guru Maharaj Ji has requested his 10 years worth of earnings (in 1970's dollars) be returned to him immediately. He stated that he did not get his money's worth. 4) A current premie suggested that exes try poking their eyeballs a bit harder in order to 'feel that feeling' properly. The Board is now in recess and will resume hearing complaints after the holidays. CRB Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 14:30:36 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: Complaint Review Board Subject: Complaint Noted Message: don't you mean 'the compliant review, bored'? humor is good, especially when shit is flying. thanks for your prompt reply. and 'merry ___________mas'! (fill in) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 14:35:52 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: shp Subject: animal farm here? Message: Hi shp - Let me differ with you here: First, Jim is NOT an icon here. He's been posting about Maharaji longer than any of us (I think) - first on Usemet, then on our various serious of forums, thus he is well known in both the ex-premie and premie worlds. However, Jim doesn't run the forum, is not the webmaster, and we don't think he's god (the idea is sort of funny though!). I have argued with Jim many times - just ask him. Keith is a guy who used to post on this site. He went back and forth from being a premie to an almost ex-premie. I think his present position is that he's not a premie at all, but respects Maharaji as one of many masters. He got kicked off the site because he posted some really vile messages under a false name. (This is just the facts, by the way.) I also wanted to bring up the following: I have a problem with some of the things you say about in your posts. First, you seem to lump everyone on this site together (as is 'you all are so reactive'), and this bothers me. I don't see anything wrong with being reactive, but everyone on this site is not like that. I assume that you don't do this purposely, but that's how it sometimes comes across. Also, it rubs me the wrong way to be told to 'chill out', or being asked 'are you having a bad evening', or etc. when I'm trying to express myself. My mom used to do this to me all the time (probably why I am so sensitive to it), and I feel that it stifles communication. I have really tried to be straightforward in my messages and sometimes that includes some expression of emotion. I hope you can take this post in the spirit in which it was written - I am trying to be as honest with you as possible. By the way, I answered your question about off-topic posts, but it rolled over into the inactive, so I'll copy it and bring it up to the top. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 14:43:15 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: shp Subject: off-topic posts - answer Message: In the inactive index, shp asked: btw, how can any subject be 'off-topic' when you say on your title page 'anything and everything'? Well, it really says 'anything and everything about Maharaji and his followers'. We could argue semantics here, but the reason I refer to posts as off-topic is that some newer people who find the site have commented that they were desperately seeking information on people's experiences with Maharaji and got frustrated reading through all the other stuff (whether it might be tangentally related or not.) Off topic posts are (as Brian says) neither 'encouraged or discouraged'. I post plenty of stuff that I consider to be off topic, but there are certain topics that I prefer to discuss in depth elsewhere (via group e-mails, etc.). This is because many of the people on the site aren't interested in those topics, or because they are too personal for me to post publically. Also, we archive the posts. We used to archive EVERYTHING, but we've started trying to cut out the off-topic threads before we archive to save on disk space. The alternative is not archiving at all, which we don't want to do. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 19:41:20 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: Katie Subject: off-topic posts - answer Message: i got it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 19:40:23 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: Katie Subject: animal farm here? Message: of all the folks here, you come across the straightest. if i lumped you with anyone or antagonized you by telling you to chill out, sorry. but jim plays games and demands the equivalent of an alter call in a born again church, except he wants me to say 'i don't believe'. he trips out and uses references that i know nothing about, drawing me in to ask him questions and playing position games. i want straight talk, and i know i have kidded around here just to loosen up, but i want straight talk. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 20:56:00 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: shp Subject: to shp Message: Thanks, shp, for the compliment. If I were you, I would not answer Jim's posts unless you really want to. I know several people that do this. There are plenty of other people here who Jim can (and does) talk to, and plenty of other people who you yourself can converse with. Sincerely, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 21:25:37 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: shp Subject: quit whining, shp Message: but jim plays games and demands the equivalent of an alter call in a born again church, except he wants me to say 'i don't believe'. Okay, shp, what games do I play? Start with that, please (or is THIS question one of those games?). As for your second complaint, don't be a jerk. I try to REASON with you. As do everyone else here. How do you equate reason with faith? he trips out and uses references that i know nothing about, drawing me in to ask him questions and playing position games. Oh shut up!! What the hell are you talking about? You didn't understand the term 'Keithland'. So? You ask and someone tells you. Jesus Christ, shp, you're starting to sound like a baby. i want straight talk, and i know i have kidded around here just to loosen up, but i want straight talk. You're responsible for the image you've presented here. It's not like you've come accross as Mr. Serious or anything. shp, face it, you're blowing smoke. Now why not settle down a bit and figure out what exactly it is you want to talk about. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 03:33:27 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: Jim Subject: bottom line Message: just have a nice life. really. over and out. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 14:52:43 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: shp Subject: animal farm here? Message: I don't know the context that the term 'keithland' was used in, but Keith is a premie who used to post here (and still shows up in other online forums occasionally). He constantly flip-flopped between denouncing Maharaji's fraudulent claims to divinity and posting gushing devotional words of love for him. He seemed to have multiple personalities that were all allowed to use his computer. His most famous quote was 'Let the debate begin!!', and then he took no understandable part in debating. So while he said that he was open to discussing Maharaji, he had great difficulty wrestling all his 'parts' into compliance with that. As for 'jimji', he is someone who posts here. He's not the head pig [grin]. Nobody said that all animals are equal here, although we try to make accomodation for everyone at the trough. If you're perceiving Jim as speaking for anyone but himself, then that's something that you might want to look at. Granted he posts a lot, but nobody is deferring comments here out of fear of stepping out of line with his personal views - as is happening on enjoyinglife.org, where posts are edited via deletions and/or additions to text that is contrary to Maharaji's spin on himself. You've shown a willingness to look at things objectively at times, and perhaps he was referring to a perceived reluctance to do that at other times. I don't know, since I don't read all the posts here and haven't been following the flow of conversation that closely. It wasn't easy for those of us who renounced Maharaji as a fraud to do so. There were many inner conflicts that had to be sorted out in the process, and many of us began doing so as premies who were just doing a web-search for 'Maharaji' (or 'Guru Maharaj Ji', as the case may have been). We have all had to reconcile our own inner spiritual experiences with the outer claims he made and then waffled on. If he's a fraud, is Knowledge useful/real? If it is then how can he be a fraud? What is the real connection, or is it just something that we mentally tied together? You don't have to explain your own inner conflicts to anyone here, or justify them to anyone. Work through it for yourself and come to terms with what is or isn't true. There's definitely a lie in there somewhere, or you wouldn't be having the conflicts. You have to decide in the light of personal honesty with yourself just what that lie is. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 15:51:50 (EST)
From: Runamok Email: None To: shp & all Subject: Official Curve Message: I think most of what is perceived as Jim's dominance is because of the volume of his posts. I do not always agree with Jim, and I certainly do not want my participation on this forum to be confused with agreement with his points of view. Sometimes I think he would like to institute a party line of some sort involving atheism, evolution, skepticism and other topics which are interesting but are at best related to tangents to the subject of BM. Jim has been posting forever and I'm glad that someone like him has the tenacity to post and pester the powers of DLM or Elan Vital or whoever (and I'm glad he does it in part because I don't want to do it). He does do a lot around here. I gotta go now but I'll post more later. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 16:15:06 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Runamok Subject: Official Curve Message: Runamok wrote: I do not always agree with Jim, and I certainly do not want my participation on this forum to be confused with agreement with his points of view. Sometimes I think he would like to institute a party line of some sort involving atheism, evolution, skepticism and other topics which are interesting but are at best related to tangents to the subject of BM. Very well stated, although I am not sure Jim exactly wants to institute a 'party line' (do you, Jim?). Anyway, there are ex-premies on this forum who hold a variety of religious, spiritual, political and other beliefs: atheists, agnostics, Christians, Buddhists of various kinds, astrologers, Tarot readers, UFO believers, scientists, NLP practitioners, proponents of all different kinds of therapy, environmentalists, animal rights activists, feminists, liberals, radicals, libertarians, conservatives, people who just want to party, etc, etc. etc. Also, there are ex-premies on the forum who still practice the knowledge meditation, some who don't, some who meditate in a different way, some who perform other spiritual practices and rituals, and so forth. This may not be apparent when reading the forum, because a lot of these people don't talk about their views and/or opinions on these topics on the forum. Gotta go, too, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 17:40:26 (EST)
From: gerry Email: None To: Katie Subject: Hey I see my true self! Message: I'm a agnostic, UFO believer, conservative libertarian, radical NLP practioner who just wants to party! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 17:43:00 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: gerry Subject: My kinda guy... WOW(nt) Message: LOL LOL (nt) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 22:26:48 (EST)
From: nigel Email: Nigel@dkshdcnsd To: gerry Subject: Apart from the last one... Message: I don't really relate to any of your lifestyle preferences, Gerry. But I guess we could still party, should one or other of us ever cross the mighty ocean. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 22:35:06 (EST)
From: gerry Email: None To: nigel Subject: Apart from the last one... Message: I don't really relate to any of your lifestyle preferences, Gerry. But I guess we could still party, should one or other of us ever cross the mighty ocean. Thought that would get a rise out of you Nige. I'm SURE we could party! I promise I won't even hypnotize you. Again. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 23:10:08 (EST)
From: gErRy Email: None To: nigel Subject: ET... (OT) Message: Actually I don't buy the extra-terrestrial theory of UFO's. I like Jaques Vallee's ideas on the matter. There's no denying SOMETHING is happening. Even if it turns out to be mass hysteria, I find that extremely interesting and worthy of investigation. Right now I'm reading John Mack's Abductions. The radical conservative libertarian part, well I'd be hard pressed to define that one! But (hope springs eternal) I just today hooked up a TV antenna which gives me a couple of stations, so now I'll REALLY be an expert on politics and world affairs. Look out, JW! I really DO have a certification as an NLP practioner signed by Richard Bandler. I don't use it on other people. I have a bit of a problem with the idea that one can hang out a shingle and start messing with peoples' minds after a two week course. Does this sound like back peddling? Jim, am I back peddling? Again? Well I really am an agnostic leaning towards atheism, and boy, do I like to party! So that much is true. But the big question is, WHO CARES?!? Sorry, this is my hobby. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 19:43:25 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: Brian Subject: animal farm here? Message: thanks for the input. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 20:37:05 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: shp Subject: Sorry, I DO see a pattern Message: shp, I'm sorry if you didn't know what I meant by 'Keithland'. Looking back, I was probably playing to some others here and talking over your head -- or at least over your shoulder. Forgive me, I guess. But then I did get the impression you asked for it. How? shp, I compared you to Keith for all the reasons Katie assumed and then some. Keith, like you, thinks language is just a play thing. What a joke that he thought for even a second he was ready for some 'great debate'. Like building a house with a rubber hammer -- a SOFT rubber hammer. Now, to even strengthen the similarity, you get all paranoid about me specifically. Keith, I'm not the smartest (well, maybe the SMARTEST), but I'm certainly not the most educated, most insightful, most original or articulate. I JUST POST A LOT AND HAVE DONE SO FOR A LONG TIME!! You, too, can have an ex-premie frequent flier card if you really want. But I digress. Like I say, Keith, too, got all weird about me. Funny, huh? If you want to see Keith in a semi-natural habitat you can view him, by the way, over on MMT: http://www.paradise-web.com/plus_le/plus.mirage?who=forumlite or sometimes on the censored 'uncensored' premie page. You know, I bet you'll actually hit it off with Keith famously. He's about as willing as you are to mix things up word-wise and to dive about as deeply below the surface for real meaning. Say hi for me. What did it? Your 'rave' this morning. It made me realize that even the little bit of rational analysis you've been practising here is tough for you. You're bristling against reason like a wild cat. But, shp, there's still so far to go! You've barely begun, still playing with your Perfect Master playing cards and everything. So, yeah, I see shades of Keithitis. Not saying you can't shake it if you want. It's up to you. Do you WANT to discuss Maharaji rationally and thoroughly? Do you see that as a valid path for learning? These are questions you hve to ask yourself. Mind you, Keith answered 'yes' to these and more and, in the end, didn't last thorugh the first round. Go ask him. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 03:52:12 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: Jim Subject: everyone is unique Message: after all is said and done, until and unless i renounce you have a jar of your own that you envision me in that you think you have freed yourself from. i don't see it that way yet. if i remind you of someone that's great. you remind me of some people too. but i don't overlay the filter of my experience with them on top of you because this is a new experience and i don't want to miss any uniqueness about you by lumping you with somebody you remind me of. that would be unfair to both of us and especially unfair to what is trying to happen here which is clarity about something very important to our lives and the lives of others who post here. word play is ok irresponsible talk alienates. what is your objective? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 13:14:45 (EST)
From: Barney Email: None To: shp Subject: Jimji, sex and lies Message: Forgive me Jimji for I know not what I do. Forgive me, Jimji as I tread on this dangerous and personal topic as I know I will be a victim of your wrath and scorn and be sent to the barren hell known as 'keithland'. However, I will make amends and I solemnly vow that I will make it up to you at your next Jimji festival when I purchase, say, $500 worth of Jimji trinkets and Jimji logo-ized wrist watches and paper weights and stationary. Snapping back to reality shp, unless I'm confused about Jim's 'Sexual Fantasies' or confusing his posts with someone else, they were appropriate in terms of content. I believe due to your rather recent arrival to the CULT that you missed the entire era of repression. BTW, interesting, how the CULT has different little periods just like modern day China with its periods of extreme repression followed by purges and openness followed by more repression. I believe that these posts were about the sexual repression that many of us were living with as a result of our involvement with the CULT. I believe that Jim's amusing and poignant stories were about that repression and I certainly related to it. Gawd, it's hard to admit that you completely missed the free sex of the '70s instead of saying you had the sex life of Wilt Chamberlain (admitted thousands) or a rock star or a movie star or a politician. Also, shp, Jim does post a lot. There's no rules against that like, say, the Premie (ELK) Forum. I am grateful for Jim's time and effort, even though I don't always agree with him, but sometimes he's like a catalyst and gets things going. Keep posting Shri Jimji! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 13:43:09 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: Barney Subject: it's a beautiful thang Message: your prose is enjoyable to read and your affection for jimji is noted. i am a little more into the newer threads from RDS and Barney. compared to that information, this is child's play and i came here for more information, not to get into hassles with any individuals. but there is this one thing: ever heard of free will? if there were dozens or hundred of gurus claiming to be the lord running around and you bought into one, then you change your mind and leave, ok. if you gather with others of like mind to and get over it, ok. but you had free will the whole time and somewhere inside you knew it. if you and others are saying you got snowed, fine. i have been snowed, i can relate to what that feels like. it's just at this point i don't feel that maharaji is snowing me. if that changes, i'll cross that bridge when i get to it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 17:37:01 (EST)
From: Runamok Email: None To: shp Subject: Count Me Out Shp Message: You're losing me Shp- I can't approve of a fraud. I can admit to being stupid- stupid enuf to be conned. Anybody that would claim messiahship to a bunch of people idealistic enuf to give an arm or a leg .. and then take that to bank without expressing remorse- is really somebody that the planet earth would be better off without. Sometimes the real rules come in the negative- you can't pull the kinda shit M pulled and be ok in my book. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 17:42:41 (EST)
From: gerry Email: None To: Runamok Subject: Count Me Out Shp Message: If I were still attempting to engage the mystical magical never, never land thinking shp, I would say, ''yeah, shp, ya dope.'' But since I've given up that vain and hopeless endeavor I'll just say ''right on, Run!' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 20:30:47 (EST)
From: david m Email: None To: everyone Subject: Count Me Out Shp Message: Hey guys/gals...... Im starting to wonder if were being put on a bit by shp....Does he really believe in GM.....or is he just screwing arround with us...Maybe a payback for enjoying life ehhhh Jim.. so shp if you really want to know the facts of the perfect master...bringing peace to this earth..keep hanging arround here ....right on run im with you ....peace dave Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 22:25:47 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: david m Subject: no put on Message: if i say someting that sounds way out to you please be specific so i can respond to it and don't just go off about my posts in general there may be someting you see that i don't you can trust that my posts are sincere or not trust i say to you they are Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 00:36:56 (EST)
From: Runamok Email: None To: shp Subject: no put on Message: I tried to be as specific as possible. It's not always easy in this relatively fiery (i.e. flaming) environment to discuss or specifically argue in a respectful manner. I do find rationalising M pretty obnoxious. These posts are filled with countless reasons to feel accusatory toward the guru. A nonchalant declaration that you still have nothing against M, specifically that 'you haven't been snowed' is reminiscent of the famous stories of dozens of people not calling in a rape that they all could clearly witness from their apartments. The weak and weary are easy to take advantage of. Sometimes con artists lure victims by pretending to need help. Gooma's final selling point to me was that he (said he) was going to bring peace to the earth. That's why I gave him all my posessions and wasted years trying to do exactly what he said. If it had been just for enlightenment I could have risked my own soul, but being convinced that others were at stake I stayed on years longer than I should and threw away countless opportunities to have a life instead of being a cultist robot. So if you are going to defend M's actions on this forum, you might consider a less nonchalant approach. There are numerous reasons among the postings on this forum for you to proactively question M's ethics. I'm not talking about his sex life. I'm talking about his treatment of human life or more specifically his callous disregard for it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 12:17:07 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Small favours Message: I see what op means about Maharaji's selfless actions. Here, he actually sent a message to a premie with a life-threaening illness: 'Steve Hammersley A real friend Steve from Bristol tells of recent events in his life. |
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 11:19:54 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Andrew Weil's 'alternative' Message: Here's the address of an interesting New Republic article about Andrew Weil and 'alternative' mediicine by the editor of the New England Journal of Medicine: http://www.thenewrepublic.com/magazines/tnr/current/relman121498.html I think it's fair (and fairly scathing). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 05:05:37 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Everyone Subject: Paranoia and Popcorn Message: Interesting email, and my response (edited for the forum): Hello, I am the Technical Director of [a theatre]. This Sunday, a group named 'Elan Vital' is coming to [the theatre] to receive a satellite broadcast of someone (as yet unnamed). I have met with theses people and have had some strange 'vibes'. This may be the group described on your web page. Is there anything I should be concerned about? Many Thanks I am the webmaster at www.ex-premie.org and am responding to your request for information about Elan Vital. 'Elan Vital' is the current name of a religious cult that used to be called 'Divine Light Mission', and they are indeed the organization that we discuss on this site. We are ex-members of the cult, and operate this site to share what we've learned during the time we were involved, and to support each other during the process of exiting the cult. The broadcast they will receive will originate in California and star Prempal Rawat - known as 'Maharaji' to his overly-secretive devotees. He first gained the limelight in the early 70's as a 13-year-old Indian guru who was then known by the name 'Guru Maharaj Ji'. This is to be the first global satellite broadcast to be used by Elan Vital to allow followers around the world to 'stay in touch' with him. That means that they each will be 'touched' for 60 dollars by Maharaji's organization (Elan Vital) for the priviledge of watching the broadcast. The people who are involved in Elan Vital are not dangerous, although they have bizarre beliefs. You can get a feel for who they are by looking at a website set up by devotees - http://www.enjoyinglife.org - where they talk about the satellite feed and also publish carefully edited personal testimonies of life with Knowledge - Maharaji's 'gift' to them. You will probably find them to be nice people who exhibit a school-girlish excitement at getting to see their 'master' on the big screen. I will publish your letter and my response in our online forum, although I will omit your name. I will also change the phrase _____ to '[a theatre]'. This will allow me to let people know the secretive nature of the group's preparations without involving you or your theatre. We maintain this site to shine a little light on the activities of Maharaji - who prefers to operate in the dark. Please feel free to email me if you have any other questions regarding Elan Vital or Maharaji. webmaster@ex-premie.org Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 23:52:11 (EST)
From: w Email: na To: Brian Subject: Paranoia and Popcorn Message: Bravo, well done. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 01:42:00 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Brian Subject: Paranoia and Popcorn Message: Brian, When I was pursuing the aspirant process, Maharaji's local video events kept changing, phone numbers were disconnected, etc. It was difficult to get information, because everything kept changing. My theory was that the theatre/event hall owners in this paranoid town found out they were renting to a cult, and didn't want anything to do with it. (Hence EV had to keep moving their events.) I don't know why their phone numbers kept getting disconnected. VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 02:11:08 (EST)
From: w Email: na To: Everyone Subject: World-Wide satellite event???? Message: Satellite, {broad cast}, broadcast? Global audience? World-wide? Anyone with a satellite dish is allowed to tune-in and turn-on, No! Imagine your one of the best, or the best, orator or avatar on the subject of Love/truth/KNOWLEDGE/goodness/and so on……., well why would you not let the world tune in and turn on? Heck for that matter it could also be Internet Web Casted live, but it is NOT. Maybe it is not about Love Truth KNOWLEDGE Goodness and so on……………… Maybe money or something else…… then again maybe it is something we the creatures/humans are not supposed to think about. Hahaha -------------------- Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 14:25:53 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: w Subject: World-Wide satellite event???? Message: The shift is away from Maharaji having to go to the world. The world will have to come to him - by forking out the money he's going to charge for the privilege of watching him 'live'. Satellite technology has been around for many years, yet he's just now 'discovering' it. He has also just 'discovered' what we all have been using for some time now - the Internet. I love the quote from the Amaroo Participation Video, October 1998: I used to be down on the web. Then one day I thought... Keep thinking, Maharaji. You'll figure it out eventually. The rest of us have. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 16:14:54 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: Brian Subject: World-Wide satellite event???? Message: Brian: 'Thinking' about something would seem to indicate that he didn't already 'know' the answer. Hmmmmm. I was always under the impression that god was all-knowing (IAW Arti, right?) Hmmmm. Wait a minute, I 'thought' that 'thinking' was baaaaaaaadddddd! Hmmmmm. Alot of 'Hmmmmm' going on around here.... ;-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 16:47:07 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Mike Subject: World-Wide satellite event???? Message: 'Thinking' about something would seem to indicate that he didn't already 'know' the answer. Right. He's a fraud, but he's not a particularly bright fraud. But, that's okay. At least he's able to comprehend the information available to him in this forum. Keep reading, Maharaji. We'll keep explaining it to you until you get it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 21:13:14 (EST)
From: Nimrod Email: None To: Brian Subject: World-Wide satellite event???? Message: Some more M quotes on the subject: ' Everyone is going internet, internet. What we really need is the innernet' And this one at the Amtext meeting at the res on May 11, 96 when someone asked him ' Maharaji, are you going to get a website ? ' he replied with this comical grimace on his face indicating that it was out of the question and said ' I haaaave a life !!! ' Of course he's given himself a perpetual out on any and all subjects with the following: ' Dead masters can't change their minds.But a living master can always change his mind.' I guess now we know whats going to have to happen before we get any consistency out of him. Peacefully, blissfully of course. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |