Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 31

From: Dec 2, 1998

To: Dec 14, 1998

Page: 5 Of: 5



Jim -:- Charanand's a liar -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 18:03:26 (EST)
__Laura -:- Charanand's a liar -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 19:12:48 (EST)
____Adole -:- Charanand's a liar -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 05:22:38 (EST)
__selene -:- Charanand's a liar -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 19:14:42 (EST)
____Scott T. -:- recursive sponge -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 20:34:19 (EST)
__Jerry -:- Charanand's a liar -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 09:51:41 (EST)
__Mike -:- Charanand's a liar -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 12:11:21 (EST)
____Scott T. -:- Charanand's a liar -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 15:07:23 (EST)
______Selene -:- ugh - nt -:- Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 19:22:32 (EST)

Brian -:- Attention: UK Ex's, Premies -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 13:49:23 (EST)
__Mike -:- Attention: UK Ex's, Premies -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 13:54:40 (EST)
__Jethro -:- Attention: UK Ex's, Premies -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 16:39:41 (EST)
__Sir D -:- Attention: UK Ex's, Premies -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 19:47:20 (EST)
__nigel -:- Looks promising, I suppose... -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 20:36:25 (EST)
____Orlando -:- Editing... -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 09:20:23 (EST)
______Mike -:- Editing... -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 09:41:03 (EST)
________Orlando -:- Editing... -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 09:47:12 (EST)
__________Mike -:- Editing... -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 11:07:59 (EST)
____________gerry -:- Duck, Orlando! -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 11:19:11 (EST)
______________Orlando -:- Duck, Orlando! -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 14:21:12 (EST)
________________Mike -:- What a .... -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 15:42:57 (EST)
____________Bill Gates Critic -:- Charity -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 11:54:01 (EST)
______________Bill Gates Critic -:- Charity -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 12:23:25 (EST)
______________Mike -:- Not charity... responsibility -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 12:37:39 (EST)
____________Orlando -:- Editing... -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 14:19:10 (EST)
______________gerry -:- barfomatic response to orlando -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 14:39:34 (EST)
________________Orlando -:- barfomatic response to orlando -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 14:54:37 (EST)
__________________gerry -:- barfomatic response to orlando -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 15:01:57 (EST)
____________________Orlando -:- being in a cult -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 16:06:05 (EST)
______________________gerry -:- being in a cult -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 16:21:36 (EST)
______________________Gail -:- being in a cult -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 18:14:45 (EST)
______________Mike -:- Editing... -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 15:09:31 (EST)
________________gerry -:- Editing... -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 15:23:30 (EST)
__________________Mike -:- Editing... -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 15:35:36 (EST)
________________Orlando -:- Editing... -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 16:12:37 (EST)
__________________gerry -:- Editing... -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 16:41:21 (EST)
__________________Mike -:- I only give back -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 16:43:00 (EST)
____________________Orlando -:- I only give back -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 17:14:47 (EST)
______________________Mike -:- You assume -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 17:50:09 (EST)
__________________Jim -:- I'll reiterate -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 19:03:24 (EST)
______________Jerry -:- Editing... -:- Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 00:05:18 (EST)
__________Katie -:- doing for humanity -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 12:10:46 (EST)
______nigel -:- Editing... -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 14:08:11 (EST)
________Orlando -:- Editing... -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 14:28:09 (EST)
__________JW -:- Editing... -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 14:37:34 (EST)
____________Orlando -:- Editing... -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 14:51:38 (EST)
______________Jane -:- Hello -:- Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 22:55:41 (EST)
________________Jim -:- Hello -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 00:15:16 (EST)
__________________Gail -:- Hello Jane--not Gail -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 02:34:50 (EST)
____________________Jim -:- I have no idea -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 05:24:54 (EST)
________________Mike -:- Hello -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 13:23:25 (EST)

G's mom -:- philanthropy or lack of... -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 13:19:22 (EST)
__Mike -:- philanthropy or lack of... -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 13:52:55 (EST)
__Hannaman -:- philanthropy or lack of... -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 14:17:53 (EST)
____G's mom -:- piglets -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 14:26:17 (EST)
____Mike -:- Hey, Amos -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 14:28:32 (EST)
__barf -:- philanthropy or lack of... -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 16:12:03 (EST)
____op -:- philanthropy or lack of... -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 01:35:50 (EST)
______Jethro -:- philanthropy or lack of... -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 08:27:39 (EST)
______Jim -:- You're nuts, op -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 13:09:39 (EST)
________op -:- You're nuts, op -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 23:35:35 (EST)
__________Jim -:- You're nuts, op -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 01:17:21 (EST)
______hamzen -:- philanthropy or lack of... -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 13:09:49 (EST)
______g's mom -:- thanks for responding -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 21:48:27 (EST)

El Nino -:- Is Maharaji's sincere? -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 02:00:38 (EST)
__Saul -:- Is Maharaji's sincere? -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 03:06:41 (EST)
____shp -:- Is Maharaji's sincere? -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 07:30:22 (EST)
______Saul -:- Is Maharaji's sincere? -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 10:57:14 (EST)
__JW -:- Is Maharaji's sincere? -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 16:17:20 (EST)

Mole -:- Is MJ getting flak from his -:- Wed, Dec 02, 1998 at 23:21:33 (EST)
__Helen -:- Is MJ getting flak from his -:- Wed, Dec 02, 1998 at 23:48:08 (EST)
__tunnel rat -:- Is MJ getting flak from his -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 01:18:41 (EST)
____gerry -:- Is MJ getting flak from his -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 11:30:48 (EST)
____Selene -:- Is MJ getting flak from his -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 20:04:50 (EST)
__Scott T. -:- Is MJ getting flak from his -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 13:24:40 (EST)
__Crown Publishing -:- God's son...My life as the -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 13:55:33 (EST)
____ghostwriter -:- God's son...My life as the -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 14:59:14 (EST)
______Scott T. -:- Very funny. It wasn't me. -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 15:52:33 (EST)
____Scott T. -:- God's son...My life as the -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 15:46:41 (EST)
____Laura -:- I want the book -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 19:14:48 (EST)
______Bantaam Books -:- Big fat advance for book -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 12:38:09 (EST)
__chr -:- Is MJ getting flak from his -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 15:18:15 (EST)
____JW -:- Is MJ getting flak from his -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 16:06:40 (EST)
______Helen -:- What IS evil then? -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 23:17:47 (EST)
________JW -:- Gee, Helen -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 23:53:36 (EST)
__________Helen -:- Gee, Helen -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 00:14:57 (EST)
____________JW -:- Gee, Helen -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 12:52:37 (EST)
______________Helen -:- EVIL EVIL EVIL -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 14:41:14 (EST)
________________Scott T. -:- EVIL EVIL EVIL -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 16:05:42 (EST)
__________________Helen -:- Scott Peck -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 16:38:44 (EST)
____________________Helen -:- self-absorption, expanded -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 19:49:12 (EST)
__________________Helen -:- status & position -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 21:07:45 (EST)
__Runamok -:- Moon's kid -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 19:07:10 (EST)
____Katie -:- Moon's kid -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 19:41:02 (EST)
____JW -:- Moon's kid -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 19:49:16 (EST)
______Katie -:- Moon's kid -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 20:05:53 (EST)
________JW -:- Moon's kid -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 20:14:33 (EST)
________nigel -:- Surely, 'dark side of the...' -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 20:56:17 (EST)
__________Runamok -:- Surely, 'dark side of the...' -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 00:19:26 (EST)
____________ham -:- run (ot) -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 06:10:00 (EST)

Mole -:- The One-Minute Commercial -:- Wed, Dec 02, 1998 at 22:54:36 (EST)
__Mole -:- If you don't speak English, -:- Wed, Dec 02, 1998 at 23:27:19 (EST)
__Orlando -:- dear canadian mole -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 09:47:17 (EST)
__Orlando -:- more for mold -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 13:48:58 (EST)
____Brian -:- more for mold -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 13:21:13 (EST)
______Orlando -:- more for mold -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 14:32:22 (EST)
________Katie -:- more for mold -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 15:36:13 (EST)
__________Orlando -:- more for mold -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 16:30:36 (EST)
____________Katie -:- more for mold -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 18:36:56 (EST)
________Brian -:- more for mold -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 16:54:38 (EST)
__________peter -:- Orlando's eyesight -:- Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 22:52:25 (EST)

Sir D -:- Satan and our diet -:- Wed, Dec 02, 1998 at 21:22:00 (EST)
__Sir D again (correction) -:- Satan and our diet -:- Wed, Dec 02, 1998 at 21:33:10 (EST)
__Runamok -:- Official Forum Policy -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 03:45:38 (EST)
____Barfy -:- Official Forum Policy -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 12:41:50 (EST)
__Mike -:- Satan and our diet -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 10:35:41 (EST)
__Scott T. -:- pitchknives and pitchspoons -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 20:05:09 (EST)
__Nigel -:- The trouble with food research -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 21:32:22 (EST)
____Scott T. -:- Carnivore? -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 23:04:47 (EST)
______nigel -:- Oops, you're right of course.. -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 04:36:19 (EST)
________Scott T. -:- Oops, you're right of course.. -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 16:12:34 (EST)
__________Mike -:- No no no -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 17:56:22 (EST)
____________nigel -:- 98% vegetarians -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 18:59:39 (EST)
______________Mike -:- 98% vegetarians -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 19:06:13 (EST)
________________Nigel -:- That's easy... -:- Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 05:38:25 (EST)
__________________Mike -:- Ahhh, Man -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 10:46:13 (EST)
____ham -:- The trouble with food research -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 06:06:44 (EST)

Jim -:- shp comes up from down below -:- Wed, Dec 02, 1998 at 18:59:37 (EST)
__Helen -:- DRIP! DRIP! DRIP! -:- Wed, Dec 02, 1998 at 23:51:56 (EST)
__shp -:- shp comes up from down below -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 00:18:59 (EST)
____Saul -:- shp comes up from down below -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 02:37:05 (EST)
______VP -:- nice post, Saul-nt -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 08:02:06 (EST)
____david m -:- shp comes up from down below -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 11:43:29 (EST)
______shp -:- shp is constantly evolving -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 15:52:41 (EST)
________Katie -:- Understanding DECA - help! -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 16:28:02 (EST)
__________Zac -:- Understanding DECA - help! -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 20:21:05 (EST)
____________gerry -:- Understanding DECA - help! -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 20:58:45 (EST)
______________dv -:- Understanding DECA - help! -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 00:09:58 (EST)
____________Katie -:- Understanding DECA - help! -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 21:18:57 (EST)
________Helen -:- shp is constantly evolving -:- Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 16:28:06 (EST)
________david m -:- .B or not to B -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 11:26:22 (EST)
____Scott T. -:- shp comes up from down below -:- Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 00:53:18 (EST)

TD -:- Maharaji wears womens clothing -:- Wed, Dec 02, 1998 at 04:41:58 (EST)
__nigel -:- Maharaji wears womens clothing -:- Wed, Dec 02, 1998 at 14:21:39 (EST)
____TD -:- Maharaji wears womens clothing -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 18:09:53 (EST)
______nigel -:- on topic (no microwaves) -:- Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 18:17:12 (EST)
________TD -:- on topic (and no cockroaches) -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 00:49:10 (EST)


Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 18:03:26 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Charanand's a liar
Message:
Either that or he's been censored just like the rest of us. Here are a few lines from the new introduction to his 'Remembrance':

When he was a few years old, I would find him sometimes sitting quietly with closed eyes early in the morning on the veranda of the residence. At other times he would come to our rooms early in the morning and knock at the door and say, 'Wake up. Practise Knowledge.' We would arise, open our door with so much delight and request him to come in and practise Knowledge with us. At that time I would open my eyes and look at him. I always found him deeply absorbed within himself.

(emphasis mine).

There's no way in the world Maharaji said this. We all heard this story before. Maharaji supposedly said, 'Wake up. Meditate!' Now that little word's taboo and history must be rewritten accordingly.

If I ever run into Charanand I'd like to ask him to resolve the single greatest discrepancy in Maharaji's teachings, then versus now: Maharaji used to order us to 'Constantly Meditate and Remember the Holy Name.' Indeed, our goal was to actually MERGE with the 'Word' or 'Holy Name' which state, we were told, was known as 'Realizing Knowledge'. The idea was that one continued to practice doing anything and everything that daily life requires yet always attentive, each and every second, to the meditation technique. All actions were supposed to be done with a spirit of loving detachment, their fruits surrendered before, during and after, so that the mind would not interfere and one could feel Maharaji himself working through one. Thus, certain jobs that attracted to much glory or even service that might be too much fun (e.g. playing music) were undertaken cautiously. The point wasn't to make a lot of money for self-aggrandizement or to havea lot of fun or glory playing the latest devotional song. The point was to do these actions while 'on the Word' and thus sacrifice onesself back to the Lord. Constantly.

Maharaji no longer teaches this. Premies are actually ordered to NOT try to meditate throughout the day. They are NOT expected to 'allow Maharaji to work through them'. They are NOT expected to try to obliterate their illusory ego on the gret washing stone of the Holy Name.

So I'd like to ask Charanand about that. Wouldn't you?
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 19:12:48 (EST)
From: Laura
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Charanand's a liar
Message:
It is really incredible to me that maraji now says Not to meditate during the day. We were Always supposed to be meditating on the holy name. Our tongue in the back of our throats was supposed to be helpful in not speaking. The only worthwhile thing to ever speak was about maraji and how great he was. Why would anyone these days even want to receive K if not to realize it.

Maraji - 'Here's Knowledge but don't meditate on it.

Aspirant - 'Wow, i really want some of that. But I promise i won't meditate on it. I'll just 'practice.'

My 8-year old has a favorite saying, it goes like this, 'duh.'
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 05:22:38 (EST)
From: Adole
Email: None
To: Laura
Subject: Charanand's a liar
Message:
just guessing:
maybe premies shouldnt meditate anymore during the day, so that they have more time going to work and earn money for M.And after dropping their hard earned money they can go and meditate.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 19:14:42 (EST)
From: selene
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Charanand's a liar
Message:
I would open my eyes and look at him. I always found him deeply
absorbed within himself.


Well, he got that part right at least!

...Selene the meany
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 20:34:19 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: selene
Subject: recursive sponge
Message:
Selene:

RE: I would open my eyes and look at him. I always found him deeply
absorbed within himself


Actually, I see him as somewhat sponge-like too. It's a profound metaphysical question: 'What is the sponge that absorbs itself?' (... and what else does it absorb?)

-Scott
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 09:51:41 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Charanand's a liar
Message:
Maharaji still advocates searching within and abandoning any hope that you'll find 'true' happiness in the world. He used to say, quite regularly (and he still may for all I know), that if he ever wrote a book it would have only one line in it, 'What you are searching for is within you'. But why there is this hangup about changing 'meditate' to 'Practice Knowledge', I'm not sure. I guess it's just part of the effort to westernize Knowledge, a new marketing strategy. It's also lying and revisionist, risky business if you're caught at it and brought to task for it. Also, the order to 'Constantly meditate and remember Holy Name', was a COMMANDMANT, a holy one. Can you imagine Christians and/or Jews revising or abolishing the ten commandments. Who else but the Lord could do such a thing? Anybody who's aware of Maharaji's past and still follows him must think of him in just that light. Either that or you've got to be brain dead, or perhaps, brainwashed?
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 12:11:21 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Charanand's a liar
Message:
Jim: I remember this story well and you are quite correct, but you forgot something (or I'm blind and didn't see it): According to Charanand (in the old days) he used to hit them with a stick if they didn't wake-up immediately. According to Charanand's own story, they would almost look forward to the beatings from the lord's son.... How do I know C enjoyed it, whenever he told the story, he had a huge smile on his face...
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 15:07:23 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Charanand's a liar
Message:
Mike:

RE: How do I know C enjoyed it, whenever he told the story, he had a huge smile on his face...

Like any story teller engrossed in his own message he enjoys telling a good whopper. There is also a certain amount of sado/masochistic glee, like an upper classman telling a plebe about hell-week.

-Scott
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Date: Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 19:22:32 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: ugh - nt
Message:
sick fuckers aren't they?

still mad about the cult.... selene
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 13:49:23 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: Attention: UK Ex's, Premies
Message:
This bit of info arrived this morning:

I am researching a Channel Four documentary series about alternative beliefs and lifestyles in twentieth century Britain. I would like to look at the Divine Light Mission in my programme on the 1960s and 1970s. At Testimony Films we make oral history documentaries hence our programmes depend on life stories and personal memories. I am looking for British people who joined the Divine Light Mission in the early 1970s and could talk to me about it. If you were such a person or can think of someone who might be able to help me please contact me either at shumphries@msn.com or at Testimony Films, 12 Great George St, Bristol. BS1 5RS. Many thanks, Lucy Greene
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 13:54:40 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Attention: UK Ex's, Premies
Message:
Brian: I'll bet that everyone here is wishing that they were British, right now.... he he he!
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 16:39:41 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Attention: UK Ex's, Premies
Message:
The phone number of Testimony films is 01179258589. (Drop the leading zero if you are calling from outside the UK).
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 19:47:20 (EST)
From: Sir D
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Brian
Subject: Attention: UK Ex's, Premies
Message:
Thanks Brian. I will send her an email and see if I can help.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 20:36:25 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Brian
Subject: Looks promising, I suppose...
Message:
I first read this and thought 'Oh-ho, here we go'.

I tend to distrust TV journalists. The drug agency at which I was working until recently got very excited when a top name BBC news reporter called and asked for the inside story on heroin abuse on Merseyside (of which there is much, and much to talk about). The agency referred them to their most experienced and articulate drugs worker. The pressmen used up a few of his precious hours, and carefully filmed him several times making a house call (ie., knocking on his own front door), to make sure they got the shot just right. Then they interviewed him. Unfortunately the worker in question is just that bit too articulate - even using long sentences when circumstance demands. The result: the BBC used a ten-second sound-byte on the national news, which didn't even allow him to complete one sentence. Complete waste of time.

Anyway, I am encouraged that Channel 4 plan to do a series rather than a one-off programme that would otherwise squeeze Margie in for five minutes somewhere between the Krishnas and Moses David.

I am going to email them now and offer whatever support I can, but I don't really expect too much. Perhaps the best we can hope is that they will mention this web-site.

If they have a mind to do some serious investigation, they will find their best material in the forum archives and the Journeys section. A couple of actors reading from these on the radio might be the most effective presentation, IMHO.
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 09:20:23 (EST)
From: Orlando
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: Editing...
Message:
then you will experience what REAL editing is all about...(maybe you can also submit a couple of fake stories....they won't know the difference)
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 09:41:03 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: Editing...
Message:
Orlando: Why don't you get off it. You think those stories on enjoyingpokingmyeyestilltheybleed.org are REAL? The people there speak as if they are enlightened, yet NONE of them are. THAT is a fake story, my friend. In fact, it qualifies as a lie. The way the life stories are edited makes them as fake as they can be, too. The proof is in the pudding.

BTW, if you bothered to read it, my challenge for anyone to provide documented proof of M's philanthropy has gone unanswered. I wonder why!
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 09:47:12 (EST)
From: Orlando
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Editing...
Message:
What have YOU done for humanity, lately?
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 11:07:59 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: Editing...
Message:
Orlando: You asked the wrong question. Your high-and-mighty attitude just got you in a bit of trouble, in terms of my response. Here is an incomplete and very short list of my activities for 'humanity': (1) I volunteer for the AZ Game and Fish Dept on an extended (and difficult) project to remove non-native species from Arizona and it's waterways. (2) I also volunteer for any wildlife research projects, when the Department needs help (three this year alone). (3) I volunteer for the Forestry Service (and others) for hiker trail building/maintenance duties. (4) I volunteer as a search and rescue worker with the Civil Air Patrol. (5) I am very active in several projects/programs that involve the native american population here, for example: The return of native remains and art to their rightful tribes and/or burial grounds. (6) I volunteer to FEED people at various organizations here.

ALL of the above are done with SWEAT! Since I have more sweat than money and sweat is what they prefer. Before you ask, I volunteer to serve in those areas where I have specific and useful expertise to offer.

As to the organizations that I send money to: Well, suffice it to say that last year fully 10 percent (10%) of my income went to worthwhile organizations (according to my tax records). What is a worthwhile organization? Any organization that I deem so! Most specifically, those that FEED people and do good things for our environment.

So now, Orlando.... How about you? Do you provide any sweat equity to pay for the space YOU take up on this planet? I didn't intend for this to turn into an ego-trip, but your assinine question deserved a 'blasting' response. I don't do these things for my ego, I do them because I like to help and I think that I have some responsibility to the community in which I live. Yeah, helping feels good and I like to feel good.... REALLY good (not that fake bullshit you call knowledge)!

Additionally, what has your lard done for humanity, in terms of SWEAT.... REAL SWEAT, not giving a non-existent and meaningless 'gift' that doesn't fill a belly or do a damned thing for our planet. If not sweat, how about cash.... He can afford a hell-of-a-lot more than 10 percent of his income and still be living a ludicrous lifestyle!
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 11:19:11 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Duck, Orlando!
Message:
Great job, Mike and great response. Boy, Orlando really walked into that one! Wonder if he will have the courtesy and integrity to reply. Probably has his head under a blanket, squeezing his eyeballs, looking for relief...
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 14:21:12 (EST)
From: Orlando
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Duck, Orlando!
Message:
no, actually, i am too busy right now with all the sweating and stuff
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 15:42:57 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: What a ....
Message:
Orlando (aka little man): You really are a pathetic excuse for a human. Get an education, learn how to punctuate, learn some grammar and LEARN SOME REAL HUMILITY then maybe we can have a conversation. Until then, you prove your banality with every word that you type!
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 11:54:01 (EST)
From: Bill Gates Critic
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Charity
Message:
Now, Mike is an example of charity!

1. Mike says he gave 10% of his income to charity. No doubt this percentage is larger than what Bill Gates gives. However, Bill's annual salary is rather paltry, but in terms of net worth I'm pretty sure that Mike gave disproportionately vs. Bill and all the other Billionaires.

2. Mike's volunteering sounds like a substantial amount of time and we all know that time is MONEY. And by the sounds of it, Mike volunteered a lot of time to a lot of good causes, not to mention that some of those efforts were quite strenous.

So, compared to BM and all the world's wonderful Billionaires a guy like Mike outshines them all.

Mike, sounds like you live in AZ and are a hiker. Man, what a great place for hiking! Ever been to Fossil Springs near Pine?
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 12:23:25 (EST)
From: Bill Gates Critic
Email: None
To: Bill Gates Critic
Subject: Charity
Message:
I swear this will be my last post on this topic!

First point: When many of us who dove into BM's world we sincerely believed that what we were doing would benefit the whole world.

What did we give? We gave our lives. We moved into ashrams. We gave our entire paycheck. We gave ourselves up as slave labor to work in his sweat shops, some of which went to private hands.

We did this for years during the most productive years of our lives and the cost to each one of us was huge, far in excess of what any billionaire can give.

Too bad, that at this point we see that our efforts were a bit misguided and we feel ripped off. Nevertheless, our efforts were sincere regardless of the fact that maybe as a payoff we might have been looking for a private darshan session where our efforts would be acknowledged by the Lord himself.

'Susie, I want to personally thank you for all your selfless efforts. We have, at last, saved the world. Hunger, poverty disease, suffering - it's all gone now and everyone is Enjoying Life,' says BM, as you kneel to kiss the Lotus-Ferrari Feet.

Second and last point on this forever: Grass roots charity vs. Billionaire charity which is greater? It's the little guy that sacrifices more proportionately doing charitable works or by giving amounts of money that they need to carefully think about because they have a limited amount vs. an infinite amount (ie. billions.)

For a billionaire if they gave every billion they had and saved one last billion for themselves wouldn't they still be able to live a lavish lifestyle? How much do they need?

The grass roots charity working in soup kitchens, AIDS care, environmental cleanup, etc. that is selfless is what is helping more people than some damn billionaire who gives about $100 dollars in terms you and I can relate to and then gets his picture in the newspaper.
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 12:37:39 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Bill Gates Critic
Subject: Not charity... responsibility
Message:
BGC: Thanks for the accolades, but I don't like to refer to what I do as charity, per se. I do what I can and I do it with a smile. I certainly don't do it to get my ego stroked, although a pat on the back does recharge the mental 'batteries'.... he he he. I think that since I'm here on this planet, that I have some responsibilities. I've been pretty lucky, where others have not. I've been in war and I'm not dead or injured/crippled for the rest of my life. I have a wife and a kid, both of whom are in great health. I have a home and some extra 'fun' money to do with as I please. In short, I think that I've got alot! So, I do what I can.... I certainly do know how to 'sweat'... he he he.

YES...YES...YES, I have been to Fossil Springs and it is one of my all-time favorite places. In fact, the entire Verde Valley (starting from the springs and going west) is among my favorite places on earth. Lots of canyons, lots of native ruins, lots of history. When I want to really get-away from it all, the verde valley is where I head. So BGC, where are you located (state/country wise)?
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 14:19:10 (EST)
From: Orlando
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Editing...
Message:
congratulations for your good deeds
i do a lot of sweating myself, but by being the humble kind, i do not want to brag about it.
i do not want to brag about M. either even though he does a lot more than you and i put together
sorry if you don't agree
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 14:39:34 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: barfomatic response to orlando
Message:
you're cooked orlando if you really believe goober does ANY good in this world. a true hard case you are, and a lost cause, I suppose. Why in the world are you even hanging out here?
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 14:54:37 (EST)
From: Orlando
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: barfomatic response to orlando
Message:
gerry,
i am staying here to entertain you.
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 15:01:57 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: barfomatic response to orlando
Message:
Actually, O, you CAN be bit entertaining. Premies are an enigma to me. If most anyone can access the meditative experience without a teacher why bother being in a cult? It's got to be a pain in the ass, at least at times, right? What is it about M you find so attractive?

gerry--still looking for that bliss button in my neurology
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 16:06:05 (EST)
From: Orlando
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: being in a cult
Message:
Gerry,
i agree with you, being in a cult must be a real drag , although i would not know for a fact because i have never been in one

ciao
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 16:21:36 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: being in a cult
Message:
Yes it was a real drag, being in the cult. It was called ''Divine Light Mission.'' Ever hear of it? Luckily I got out after about a year.

Seriously though, O, don't you agree that the DLM set up was very definitely a cult? If you do a web search an it you'll find several references to the fact that it was indeed a cult. All these experts agree. Why is that? Are they all lying?

Who to believe, who to believe.

Tell me O, what does it take to convince you of anything? Do you have to read about it, or have another person tell you about it (we are talking generalities here) or maybe have two or more people tell you about it or...what?

gerry--trying to figure out what makes O tick
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 18:14:45 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: freedom@gtn.net
To: Orlando
Subject: being in a cult
Message:
Dear Orlando:

I haven't been posting because I've been staying really late at school. As for the letter, I promise I will send you a copy of both of them if you e-mail me your address. The woman who received them is afraid of the cult members. She is also worried that there might be repercussions for the author. If I send them to you, you would still be welcome to phone the letter's composer. However, in whole, these letters are the wild ramblings of a drunk; I would not want to see them on this site. I don't think that the world needs to know her position on astrology and all the other gibberish she wrote. By the way, if K and M are so wonderful, why would she have to take up the bottle for solace?

How did you manage to buy into this trip? I know how. You slowly got indoctrinated. MJ's game is based on a bunch of beliefs. If someone says that (s)he smells smoke, others will smell it, too even though there is no smoke.

I was told that MJ was the returned Messiah. Everyone kept talking about and exhibiting signs of rapture. I began to believe their stories. I received K. I experienced very little. Others kept talking about how incredible (I hate that word) it all was. I started to feel that there was something wrong with me. I just couldn't put on the dog (lie) as well as the rest of them. I still hung around though and continued to lie to myself. I knew what the problem was--ME!

The more you believe something the more truth and meaning it takes on. The whole universe starts to sing 'his praises.' Even trucks bearing the name 'GRACE' were perceived as divine reminders. How glorious this path of illusion was. Here I am 24 years later-- older but no wiser when it comes to spiritual realization. I am a lot wiser when it comes to smelling a rat. How come you are so slow?
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 15:09:31 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: Editing...
Message:
Orlando: By saying, 'being the humble kind' and broadcasting that fact, you have demonstrated the very depth of your enormous ego.

You asked me a simple question, then I gave you a straightforward and true response. In defense, you come back with this bull. You are truely a 'little' person. Trying to belittle the works of others, when you yourself obviously have none (and get off the hook by saying that you don't want to 'brag'), is the largest measure of a small person.

You said that M does more than you and I put together. PROVE IT Orlando. You are lying if you can't supply proof! You said it, not me. Welcome to my web, little man.
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 15:23:30 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Editing...
Message:
Don't blame you for being pissed, Mike. It was a low blow from one of Goobers ''enlightened'' ones.

Of course the cultspeak answer will be that Goober does the world a great good by dishing out K, which we all know is ludicrous and insulting to the people doing the REAL WORK IN THE WORLD.
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 15:35:36 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Editing...
Message:
Thanks Gerry. I don't like responding in that manner (especially considering the subject matter), but what an insulting little puke that some would refer to as a 'person'! I'll think twice about answering any question from premies, particularly when their ego shows so bright for all to see. Every single time that I've answered one of their pathetic little questions with an honest response, they pull this kind of crap. He wouldn't know what 'service' was if it came up and bit him on the ass.

Sorry Gerry, just had to let it go. I'm better now.... :-)
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 16:12:37 (EST)
From: Orlando
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Editing...
Message:
Mike
you write:
'Trying to belittle the works of others'

i write:
isn't this EXACTLY what you are doing with M.'s work?

PS: about writing and grammar: i am hispanic. you are belittling me by making nasty remarks about my writing. try writing in spanish, for fun...
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 16:41:21 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Senor Orlando
Subject: Editing...
Message:
Por favor, hablo espanol un poquito y no pudo escribar. Pero, I tried. Is English a second language to you? Sometimes it seems like it is to MOST premies. While some are quite literate, many, many other poor devils don't seem capable of stringing two sentences together in a coherent manner. Too much eye ball squeezing, I presume.

isn't this EXACTLY what you are doing with M.'s work?

There's one HUGE difference that seems to have passed you by, Orlando. Can you guess what that is, or do I have to spell it out?

Besides, Mike had no way of telling what your nationality is. You were deliberately baiting him and you got what you deserved. Now you are trying to make him out to be a racist. Tsk, tsk, O.

So when did you come to this country?
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 16:43:00 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: I only give back
Message:
Orlando: I only give back to you that which I receive from you. Therefore, if an insult-fest is what you want, I can certainly oblige. Remember, it was YOU that asked the question: What have you done for humanity? I answered honestly and was, then, insulted by YOU. I am not your concept of Jesus; I don't turn the other cheek to people that slap my face with insults (unless I am so inclined). You can't turn those tables.

I don't feel sorry for you, even though that is what you are trying make happen, because I know too many highly educated individuals of hispanic (latino) descent. They got there by the 'sweat' of their brow; the same 'sweat' that you seem so eager to deride. Additionally, if I were to learn Spanish, as another language, I would ensure that my spelling, grammar and punctuation were correct before trying to use them to insult a person. So.... shame on you for trying to play the 'race' card. That was actually pretty pathetic, Orlando.

As to your question about deriding M's work: If he actually DID anything to fill the stomachs of hungry people or DID anything to improve our planetary environment, I would not deride his work. But, that's the point.... He doesn't work and you can't prove that he does. His airplane belches TONS of pollutants into the environment everytime he flies anywhere, just so that people like you can kiss his feet. Oh, how humble of him. Oh, what a humanitarian.

So, what's my point? Here it is: M said that he would bring peace to this world. His movies declared, 'watch who'll be feeding all the people.' His songs declared the same thing. So, exactly whom has he fed and when was peace established on this planet? He declares himself a humanitarian by those statements and yet he hasn't done a SINGLE thing to support those statements. END OF STORY!
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 17:14:47 (EST)
From: Orlando
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: I only give back
Message:
M. has already established peace on earth.
people who have received his K. and practiced it have found peace.
there are thousands and thousands of people around the world who enjoy his teachings. Too bad you are presently too blind too see this.
he is not 'feeding the people' and he is not involved with environmental issues (for now?). But what he is doing for humanity right now is much much more than that. and for this reason, i call him a humanitarian.
Mike, let's not turn this into an endless argument.
maybe we could end this discussion by you posting something like 'Orlando, you asshole' and let's leave it at that...
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 17:50:09 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: You assume
Message:
Orlando: You make an assumption that I want to call you a name. This is not the case and never was the case. YOU are not the 'asshole,' M is the one that I'm picking on.

You make the claim that he has established peace on this planet in the same way that other premies have done. The problem is, I WAS THERE when he made these promises and this IS NOT the way that he meant it. If it was, he could have easily said that he 'already had established peace' because he had already given K to people. Do you understand? After giving a large number of people the experience of K, he said that he 'would establish peace,' not that he 'already had established peace.' Sorry, but there is something more than simple semantics going on here.

You said that he is not feeding the people. Here we agree. The only difference is that you say, 'not yet.' I say NEVER will that money-grubber give up a single dime to feed people. People that are hungry will NOT listen to any message except the one coming from their stomachs. Feed them first, teach them later; even Hitler understood that one (and he was a murdering MORON!).

Why don't you want this conversation to go on? Is it hitting a little close to home? Facts are facts, Orlando. You can't deny that he isn't doing something that he PROMISED to do: Feed the people! He will never establish peace on this planet until the pangs of hunger subside.... K or no-K, it's as simple as that! More wars have been due to hunger (or potential hunger) than any other cause known to man.

BTW, I DO assume that the reason you became a premie is, likely, for the same reason that I did. He made promises that were the unspoken dreams of every single one of us. 'Peace on this Earth'.... Really? In my lifetime? Sooner than that? Oh my god, he's here, he's really here! Who but god would make a claim like that... He's really here!!!! That's the thought process, as it went Orlando. Unfortunately, he hasn't kept any of his promises and, in fact, has denied making them. Why would a person that is/was telling the truth try to deny his past, Orlando? Why? Maybe, just maybe, because he is a liar? Could that be the reason? Don't gloss it over, think about it. That's all I would ask of anyone.
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 19:03:24 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: I'll reiterate
Message:
Mike
you write:
'Trying to belittle the works of others'
i write:
isn't this EXACTLY what you are doing with M.'s work?


Orlando,

Again, you strike me as someone of low intelligence. Either that, or completely dismantled critical faculties. In a way, I think it's unfortunate that Mike ever answered your question about his own public service. Not that I didn't enjoy the answer. But Mike's own public service record or lack of it is one million per cent beside the point.

When prosecutors make out their case against a fraud artist, it's never a defence for the accused to get up and ask the prosecutors if they've ever ripped anyone off. Whether they have or not is irrelevant. Here, you have a guy who has claimed much more than any of us. He's claimed to be a 'master', 'beyond ego','god realized', 'supreme Lord in human form' and all sorts of outrageous shit like that. He asserted himself at a much higher level than regular humanity and demanded a proportionally higher level of trust and dedication. He has to answer for himself and all your stupid, stupid, STUPID comments trying to even the playing field just don't cut it.

What do you do for a living? Do you have any education? Sorry to seem like a bit of a snob or something but I can't imagine that you could thrive in any sort of work requiring good analytical skills or clear reasoning. If, however, you DO work in a job that depends on sound judgement, I'd say your comments here are simply insincere rubbish, meant to get a rise out of us and which you yourself don't believe for a second. It's one or the other. Either you're dumb or playing at it.
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Date: Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 00:05:18 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: Editing...
Message:
Orlando, you asked Mike what he's done for humanity, thinking, I presume, you'd shut him up by doing so. Turns out, Mike does quite a bit. Now, you want to play Mr. Humility by not bragging about what you do or what M does. I say you're full of shit and an asshole.
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 12:10:46 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: doing for humanity
Message:
Dear Orlando -
I think the reason that a lot of us became premies is that we were really concerned about the state of the world (people and environment.) Thus there are a lot of people on this site who are socially active, and do things 'for humanity'.

P.S. Mike, GOOD for you for doing all those things. I am impressed. I already knew a little bit about it, but not the extent to which you give of yourself. You set quite an example.
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 14:08:11 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Orlando
Subject: Editing...
Message:
Are you being deliberately obtuse? Or have you been
meditating too long?

The BBC drugs feature was fine in itself, and their
journalistic integrity is probably second-to-none.
The exercise was only a waste of time for the agency
because some news editor probably had a 'bigger' story
that night and had to shorten things. Thus there was
less time to go round for all the people contributing to
the news feature. It just seemed a little ironic that
in order to warn the nation about the growing heroin
epidemic they had to take up so much of somebody's time
who is actually doing something about the problem.

TV may be the medium with the highest profile, but it
can often be the least effective in carrying a coherent
message. That's all I am saying.

There was no censorship or distortion, nor were words
put into anyone's mouth
. Understand the difference?

Try sending your journey to Premie Pravda and watch what
they do with it.
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 14:28:09 (EST)
From: Orlando
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: Editing...
Message:
to answer your question,
yes, i am deliberately obtuse.
i thought you were complaining about the 2 minute news clip that came out of hours of interviewing....just wanted to mention to you that this was some editing job!
(since you do hate editing but do love to make up good stories to prove your point)

i just love pointing out the little contradictions i see around here
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 14:37:34 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: Editing...
Message:
Yes, Orlando, we are all duly impressed by your ability to twist things around to create some form of 'contradiction.'

Enjoyinglife.org (Premie Pravda) is not supposed to be a news outlet. The Lives entries are supposed to be the personal experiences and opinions of the people who post them. The fact that the website operators censor certain material that might be embarrassing to Maharaji, without even getting permission from the authors, is a whole lot different than a news department editing a piece for time or whatever. Moreoever, you can complain to a news department and they have to respond to you. Premie Pravda just ignores any discouraging word.
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 14:51:38 (EST)
From: Orlando
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Editing...
Message:
me thinks you are a bit naive about news department editing (i could teach you a thing or two about this)
news departments are not as ethical as you think
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Date: Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 22:55:41 (EST)
From: Jane
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: Hello
Message:
Hello! I'm another uneducated person with Knowledge who can't even spell (truly I'm amazed). Do you know - I've never in my life done anything for humanity - and I practise so much that I've forgotten how to see out of my two normal eyes! I always use a blanket and I breathe constantly. I also live in some kind of time warp - in the seventies.

Well, things (externally anyway) have moved on a little. I intend to move on too. I'd rather concentrate on the beautiful things in life than spend my time belittling those who don't happen to agree with me. However, you're doing well - but it's a waste of time bothering with all this crap. You'd do better to get under that slightly anachronistic blanket!

Enjoy yourself inside!
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Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 00:15:16 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jane
Subject: Hello
Message:
Jane,

You first showed up here one or two days ago and now it seems you can't stay away. What's your problem, honey? Want to talk about something? You know we're here to help. Come on, don't be afraid. Here, have seat. No, no one needs to know your last name. We know what it's like. See that guy over there? Believe it or not, he just came in from the cold a couple of months ago. See, dear, WE'VE BEEN THERE!

Nowm here, you want it black or ... someone know where the sugar is? Oh here it is! It was right under my nose... no, Jane, don't get any bright ideas. Just because something was 'right under my nose' doesn't mean this is a message from the guru or anything. No, we all stopped playing that game a long time ago, honey.

Here, you want something to eat? Wili! Wili, where'd you put the schnitzel?

Sorry, Gail, I thought we had soemthing here. Okay, enough of all that. How's the coffee? Okay, look you can just relax here if you like. No, there are no videos but we do like to talk about things once in a while. Yeah, talk. You know, just talk.

Is it inspiring? Well, I don't know. I guess SOMETIMES it's inspiring. The point is, Gail, we're just ourselves here. No one's claiming to be God or anything. But that's the whole point, isn't it?

Okay, so what's brought you here, huh?
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Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 02:34:50 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hello Jane--not Gail
Message:
Dear Jim:

Why did you change her name to Gail? I just got here.
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Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 05:24:54 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: I have no idea
Message:
Holy shit! Did i do that? Gail, I have no idea. You're a thinker and feeler, right? Jane's just a feeler. I have no idea how I mixed you up. Really, I'm scratching my head on this one.
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 13:23:25 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jane
Subject: Hello
Message:
Jane: The time-warp to which you refer is most important to those that were LIED TO by your lard. Keep that in mind before you 'belittle' those that don't agree with YOU! Go ahead and move on. Continue to waste your life on a LIE, live a LIE and bow-down/kiss-the-feet of a LIE.

BTW, I don't think that I would 'boast' about lack of humanity; It's counter-productive to your cause.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 13:19:22 (EST)
From: G's mom
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: philanthropy or lack of...
Message:
I was watching the news about charity at this time of year just after I read the Deca guru shitfit ' the work you are doing on my private jet isn't good enough' stories.

I cannot remember any stories of the guru ever doing anything for anyone else with his money. Does anyone recall if he ever paid for the surgery of some premie's kid? Has he ever heard a story of some poor starving premie family and sent a basket of food? Anything?

I was thinking of how some of these multimillionare stars even though they do live opulently themselves to decide to try to put some small part of their fortunes to help people who have less.

You kind of get the impression the guru's idea of giving is allowing someone to give to him....

Hey premie lurkers if you know of some time he used his $$$ to help someone else with something where there was nothing in it for him I will listen.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 13:52:55 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: G's mom
Subject: philanthropy or lack of...
Message:
GM: Add to that another question: Has he ever done anything with his money to help someone that ISN'T a premie? As I remember them, premies wouldn't have minded a bit if he had done this with 'their' monetary gifts to him. I think the answer is going to be a goose-egg.

One additional item: To answer this question, in keeping with their treatment of Gail, I INSIST that any positive answers to this question be accompanied by absolute proof (e.g. REAL, publically available, documentation) otherwise it's a lie! I won't believe it if someone just says he did it, for obvious reasons. See, turnabout IS fair play.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 14:17:53 (EST)
From: Hannaman
Email: None
To: G's mom
Subject: philanthropy or lack of...
Message:
My dear sister in his divine grace and lila:

Why do you think he entertained us for years with that wonderful story about the rich man who wanted to get to heaven just because he gave a little bit of money to the needy?

Because thick-headed mind-poisoned daughters of the maya like yourself, dear sister, just don't get it!

The holy one who reveals the true knowledge is beyond good deeds, he's beyond charity, that's why we sing to him,

'charity, austerity will never bring you knowledge of the soul'

Simply bow down before the Master,throw all your wordly possessions at his lotus feet and beg that he save you, that's why we sing to him:

'in the river of bondage to maya, all are swept out to sea
Guru's boat is the holy name'

My dear sister, it is written that a devotee who questions the Master's actions, will come back as a sow who must give birth to 153,874 little piglets, and every time one of those piglets suck on your teats you will remember in anguish your lost opportunity to surrender your life to the Perfect Master of the time.

You have now had fair warning dear sister, take it from one who knows, many thousands of moons ago I had it up to here with the perfect master of my time, Krishna, he was always playing around with the milk maids. I made the mistake of questioning why he was always letting those gopis blow on his divine flute. Well Krishna don't play around sister, believe you me, I have spent more than one lifetime in a smelly old pig pen down on the farm.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 14:26:17 (EST)
From: G's mom
Email: None
To: Hannaman
Subject: piglets
Message:
AAAHHHHHHHH.....they are everywhere....help......they won't stop sucking on me.....help......oink oink....oink oink..........my nipples ARE SO SORE.......all eight of them...Babe get back here...wilbur would you PLEASE stop saying how you miss ZSa zsa....and you,stop talking to that spider...and you, haven't I told you a million times to stop hanging around with that Pooh fellow?.....shoulda polished the gold on that jet better huh????
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 14:28:32 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Hannaman
Subject: Hey, Amos
Message:
Hannnnnaaaammmmaaaan: You sound alot like some guy that goes out in the fields and 'scrawnches' alot.

Down into the depths of satan's lair, goes I... ;-)
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 16:12:03 (EST)
From: barf
Email: None
To: G's mom
Subject: philanthropy or lack of...
Message:
Well there was the time when he bought that newspaper from that vendor......he was going to buy more but didn't want to give him false hopes.
And then ther was that time in Singapore or malaysia when he saw that little boy wearing only a shirt and was playing with a bit a of wire, he was going to help th eboy but saw that the boy was getting so much happiness from the piece of wire that he didn't want to disturb him.

barf
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Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 01:35:50 (EST)
From: op
Email: None
To: gs mom
Subject: philanthropy or lack of...
Message:
Here's a real one: he paid for all medical care of a woman who had cancer (South American, lives in Miami, had no medical insurance).

There are quite a few other things he's done on a personal basis. But that's not the point. More to the point is the positive influence what he teaches has had on thousands of people all around the world.

I've seen many on this forum complaining about low self-esteem, etc., when they were involved with M. Why did't this happen to me? I had low enough self-esteem before I received Knowledge - I should have been a wonderful candidate for that kind of abuse. But instead, all he did was RAISE my self-esteem. Showed me that having faith in him also produced faith in myself. I have dared to do things with my life - inner and outer - that I never would have braved without what is in essence a firm foundation, a platform to stand on. And I can say without a doubt that he gave me that.

The politics and complications of a society based around M are something he's been trying to get rid of ever since I've known him. I do blame premies, mahatmas, honchos, etc. for most of the screw-ups that have happened over the years.

And I don't shy away from my responsibility in some of those things. I was a heavy-duty representative of the Hindu Bhakti tradition as soon as I discovered it. I loved telling people how they should live their lives, and was given plenty of opportunity to do that during the early years. I thought I was being a saint.

And yet whenever I had the opportunity to be around M, he blew every concept out of the water. And still does.

I'm sorry and saddened by the suffering that has been described on the site. I'm especially sorry that many of the people who were assigned to be M's representatives (i.e. the mahatmas/instructors) didn't live up to the trust that was placed in them.

But again, all I've ever had from M is love and straightforward teaching - lessons that have taught me to stand on my own two feet, as it were, reminders about being responsible and conscious in every action I take.

There was a thread here about Bill Gates giving away $100 mil, and whether that was a PR ploy. IMHO, of course it was. No doubt about that.

So, if every time M 'gave two cents to a beggar' he put it in the newspaper, where would that leave him? Whether he's performed one or a million random acts of kindness, it's not going to change the consciousness that's already set up a barricade against him.

Another note - about safety, etc., and again, something I mentioned before: Ever since my first major event with M (India 1971), I have seen how concerned he is with the safety of those around him. I told the little story of the fireworks on the roof of Prem Nagar.

That, of course, was relatively minor. Whatever went on at DECA doesn't sound minor - but it also is not something M would condone in any way. He is the MOST safety-conscious person I've ever known, and insists on the utmost care for all those who are involved.

Of course, there are still martyrs for the cause. Even though M tells us that no one is to go without sleep or food, there are those who pride themselves on their stamina, and WILL deprive themselves until they attain a frenzied adrenaline-activated buzz. The result is the same as it has always been: chaos, and a few bad words thrown at M.
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Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 08:27:39 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: op
Subject: philanthropy or lack of...
Message:
'Here's a real one: he paid for all medical care of a woman who had cancer (South American, lives in Miami, had no medical insurance). '
'There are quite a few other things he's done on a personal basis. But that's not the point.'

It IS the point. Surely any form of leadership has to set an example. Mind you, we were always told never to look critically at satguru because his behaviour is beyond our understanding. That basically says that HE can do whatever he wishes without question. Those who question are manmut(followers of mind) I am sure that Germans were told something similar when they suspected that the factories were not factories.
It is a total copout.

'More to the point is the positive influence what he teaches has had on thousands of people all around the world. '

And what exactly does he teach?
'Today we are going to talk about something different'…but he never gets around to it..you know…you know. Premies are just another group lost in their own dissonance.

'I've seen many on this forum complaining about low self-esteem, etc., when they were involved with M. Why didn't this happen to me?'
Either you weren't in the ashram and/or you never gave yourself completely and/or you never surrendered your self-esteem.

' I had low enough self-esteem before I received Knowledge - I should have been a wonderful candidate for that kind of abuse. But instead, all he did was RAISE my self-esteem. Showed me that having faith in him also produced faith in myself. I have dared to do things with my life - inner and outer - that I never would have braved without what is in essence a firm foundation, a platform to stand on. And I can say without a doubt that he gave me that. '

Try giving the credit to yourself. You will find that your 'Knowledge experience' does not change.

'The politics and complications of a society based around M are something he's been trying to get rid of ever since I've known him.'

How has he tried? ……..Oh yes by sending around people like David Smith who believe he is a complete puppet of prempal and not addressing accusations of molestation and child abuse against his representatives.

' I do blame premies, mahatmas, honchos, etc. for most of the screw-ups that have happened over the years. '

They are his hands and feet. (His own words).

'…And yet whenever I had the opportunity to be around M, he blew every concept out of the water. And still does. '

Is there something wrong with having concepts? If I remember correctly, the eastern traditions call concepts 'sanskaras' which are given to an individual by The Guru to help you continue on the path. As we say in the middle-east 'harah be leben' which loosely translated means 'shit in the yogurt'.

'I'm sorry and saddened by the suffering that has been described on the site. I'm especially sorry that many of the people who were assigned to be M's representatives (i.e. the mahatmas/instructors) didn't live up to the trust that was placed in them. '

HE is the responsible one, by his own philosophy. We were told on many occasions that we had to obey his mathamas and honchos as if it was his agya. Here's a quote that I have posted elsewhere:

'So remember: we are part of Him who has manifested Himself as a Guru and who has come into this earth, and now we have to be one with Him. We have to completely merge and make our souls one with Him because He is perfect, and once we merge with Him we will also be perfect.(Pinata Satasang Dec10th1971)'

'There was a thread here about Bill Gates giving away $100 mil, and whether that was a PR ploy. IMHO, of course it was. No doubt about that. '

That $100mil, will feed and give a chance in life to 1000s of people (if it is true and the money arrives there). That's what I call practical. Who cares whether it is PR or not?

'So, if every time M 'gave two cents to a beggar' he put it in the newspaper, where would that leave him? Whether he's performed one or a million random acts of kindness, it's not going to change the consciousness that's already set up a barricade against him. '

For a starving person, the first thing needed before 'change of consciousness' is a full-stomach. I speak from experience….this is another copout to avoid real grounded issues……let's go buy him some more gold taps.

'Agreed. So why doesn't Maharaji answer people's' questions, since He is the only one who can?

You will find that Maharaji from the beginning spoke about the answering of questions. I remember him saying so many years ago

Not verbatim: 'You ask me all these questions, thinking that I can answer them. What I say comes from my experience of this Knowledge. You have that same Knowledge within you . Go inside and answer your own questions.' He's still saying the same thing, I believe. '

Very clever. So what he really means 'don't look at what I do…listen to what I say'.
Where does 'inside' end and 'outside' begin. Don't get caught in this duality. This is the major con of all cults/religions….sure to create a subtle form of schizophrenia.

'I pointed this out to Keith, who responded that looking inside didn't answer questions like what was my phone number etc. Sure, but you know, even answers on the outside have a funny way of appearing to those who look within. I have had a lot of experiences of this phenomenon '

'Also, those who look within get the vision to see and hear the answers that have been staring them in the face all their life. '

So do most people in their lives, even if they've never 'looked within' or 'without'.
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Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 13:09:39 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: op
Subject: You're nuts, op
Message:
But again, all I've ever had from M is love and straightforward teaching - lessons that have taught me to stand on my own two feet, as it were, reminders about being responsible and conscious in every action I take.

Let's do a bit of a reality check here, okay op? You post here anonymously because life is such that you cannot afford to be counted as an identifiable person with her own views and experiences. If M found out you were posting here he'd be angry. Right? What a bizarre joke this is, your describing your pride and responsibility. How can you be held responsible when we don't even know who you are?

Many people post anonymously for whatever reasons (excuses?). I'm not talking about them. I'm talking about you. You're apparently someone fairly close to Maharaji and we all know that one of two things must be true: either he knows about and condones your posting here or you fear he'd be angry if he found out. You've never given us any reason to believe the first. In fact, to the contrary, you've suggested -- or even said -- that he DOESN'T know. Thus the latter must be true. You're afraid of him finding out.

But beyond that, your behaviour here is despicable. Even anonymously you could 'stand' for something, I guess. You could try to defend whatever you have to say, whatever you believe in. But you don't. You make these cowardly little appearances and never stick around long enough to really examine any of your claims or sentiments.

Take the little bit above. Really, I could have responded to so much of your post but, again, what's the point? You're such a ghostly presence here it'd be a complete waste of time. There's no reason in the world I should expect you'll have the guts, even anonymously, to 'take responsibility' for anything you've said. And that's just based on past performance, isn't it?

No, I'm not going to get into any detailed substantive response. Why should I? Other than to say that your words are those of a disengaged mind. They don't have any of the real force words should have because, much as you'd love to think otherwise, you're not your own person.
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Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 23:35:35 (EST)
From: op
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You're nuts, op
Message:
either he knows about and condones your posting here or you fear he'd be angry if he found out. You've never given us any reason to believe the first.

Sorry. I should have said this a long time ago. M knows I post here. He's neither condoned it nor asked me to stop.

One of the reasons I keep disappearing is because I have a lot of other things to do with my life. One of the reasons I don't post a lot of replies is because I think them over, know they will get chewed up no matter how I word them, and think better of it.

As human beings, there are a lot of people on this site who I think I could be very good friends with if M didn't count as part of the equation. I won't go into a list, and you probably don't even know who you are - who I relate to because of similar interests in art, music, politics, etc. etc. For you, I'm simply a mouthpiece (and often a rather bad one at that) to dissect.

So I've tried to keep my presence here 'useful' only - i.e., usually to clarify where I see misinformation or fill in where some information is needed. If someone shows up with the same information, I'm more than willing to bow out.

Yes, I know some things that I don't talk about here. I think anybody with half a brain will understand why. And I don't think it's necessary, either, for me to reiterate over and over why I choose to remain anonymous.

I'm not an official mouthpiece, either. What I say is mine alone - if I make mistakes, they're mine. If I come up with some unique prasing that has some literary value, that's mine too.

Right now I and my nutty brain have some heavy duty deadlines, so I'll probably disappear for a few more days. Have fun.
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 01:17:21 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: op
Subject: You're nuts, op
Message:
Yes, I know some things that I don't talk about here. I think anybody with half a brain will understand why.

Yes, op, you're right.
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Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 13:09:49 (EST)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: op
Subject: philanthropy or lack of...
Message:
The managing director can't walk away from his responsibilities that easy op. Who chose the people to pass on his info, who placed the ill-experienced people who were running DECA in their positions?

Who ran all of the abusive ashram and instructor meetings?
Who set the tone of the culture?
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Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 21:48:27 (EST)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: op
Subject: thanks for responding
Message:
Since I invited the answer to the question and I was genuinely curious I want to thank you for answering. I have a very low opinion of the morality of Rawat. But I was curious if the suffering of people around him ever touched his heart. In my opinion his choosing to help some premies here and there doesn't in any way undo the damage I think he has caused, but it is better than never helping them. Thank you for responding.

I also appreciate your Mahatma comment. Although I feel angry that nothing was done about these Mahatmas I am glad to hear you recognize that there truly were some really awful things happening.

Why do you only blame honchos, mahatmas etc for the mistakes? Don't you think that Rawat is also responsible? I would think that Rawat more than anyone was in a position to fix anything wrong with DLM/EV .....he had a lot of influence in the organization ;).....Do you still think he is God? I do not mean this disrespectfully. It is just hard to imagine anyone still thinking he is without blame or some sort of God.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 02:00:38 (EST)
From: El Nino
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Is Maharaji's sincere?
Message:
Explore this possibility for a moment, would you. After all, that's what premies argue. My thesis's that he ain't. Want to read why? Here it is.

The guy's too intelligent not to understand he's depriving sincere folks from a legitimate life and of milk money. That's why.

He's not producing any wealth. He's taking the money, that's all.

Furthermore, he's tricking his public into beleiving he may be divine without ever saying so. He's a manipulative crook. Then, a Guinness world record type of a crook. How many crooks spend that type of money, support that type of lifestyle and get away with it? If for anything, I'd respect him for that, I'd have to say I respect Gensis Khan as well.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 03:06:41 (EST)
From: Saul
Email: None
To: El Nino
Subject: Is Maharaji's sincere?
Message:
If you look at history, people can do incredibly evil things and keep what is, in some sense, a true sincerity. People seem to have a great capacity to 'truly' believe something if it's in their own interest to do so. M's actions are relatively easy to rationalize by comparison.

I would normally be willing to cut M some slack for things that happened when he was, after all, just a boy, and even for someone who is just trying to avoid facing the consequences of damage done in the past. My problem is that the current program is still very clearly aimed at gradually getting people to worship and depend on M personally. One thing he makes 100% clear in recent times is that he has personal control and approval over all aspects of programs, videos etc. This means that videos with M's giant benevolent face, people singing songs, 'my pilot, my Lord' with M flying his plane in the background etc. are personally approved by M.

Saul
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 07:30:22 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Saul
Subject: Is Maharaji's sincere?
Message:
saul:

you said:

This means that videos with M's giant benevolent face, people singing songs, 'my pilot, my Lord' with M flying his plane in
the background etc. are personally approved by M.

i say:

perhaps he is dedicating all of his efforts, as is suggested by Krishna, to his own Lord and Master, Shri Hans and that is who he is directing and dedicating the lyrics to - we are witnesses to his service to his master...

as for the kids giving him flak, that's the way it is with all kids at a certain point...i have a 14 and 10 year old (boys) and can relate...mine are pretty cool though, even with the hormones starting to jump.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 10:57:14 (EST)
From: Saul
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Is Maharaji's sincere?
Message:
Hi shp. You say...

perhaps he is dedicating all of his efforts, as is suggested by Krishna, to his own Lord and Master, Shri Hans and that is who he is directing and dedicating the lyrics to - we are witnesses to his service to his master...
----------
That's a bit of a stretch for the video I saw. There was no mention of Shri Hans, only M flying his plane with lyrics 'My Pilot, My Lord' repeated many times. Then there was film of people doing some sort of devotional wave, more songs, the clear suggestion that you should think of M in your final moments of life (so you'd better keep in M's good graces or you'll have no one to help you when you're dying). This wasn't twenty years ago, it was in 1997(96?).

I guess it's possible that M is just sincerely dedicated to Shri Hans and that's his motivation, but considering everything that he knows about how things are set up, about what has happened to people in the past and how he personally benefits from the whole thing, this would require some pretty serious rationalization.

For me, M's sincerity is a tiny issue compared to whether the premies get exploited and harmed. This site makes a pretty good case that things are set up to exploit people, 'sincerely' or not. To me, it seems like a trap. I personally think that M's message really is profound - that's part of why the trap works.

Saul
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 16:17:20 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: El Nino
Subject: Is Maharaji's sincere?
Message:
As I posted below to chr, I think it's more complicated than 'sincere v. insincere.' I think that at least some of the time, Maharaji really does believe he is the perfect master and has a great gift for people that will change their lives, and that he
is carrying out his father's mission to do that. It's quite possible to convince yourself of all kinds of things, and it must be a pretty heady thing to be surrounded by people who never tell you that you are an idiot or criticize you in any way, and you go to programs where people sing devotional songs to you and maybe even kiss your feet. In that kind of situation, I'm sure a person can convince themselves they must be really somebody special.

But the fact that M has changed, or attempted to change, his 'image' and did things like push the ashram and then abandon it, makes it hard to believe that he doesn't see the deception he has engaged in, even if he didn't do it intentionally. Otherwise, why would it be necessary to change it? Also, the fact that he says he won't respond to his critics, to me, shows a level of fear that he can't really do it without looking like either an idiot or a deceiver, and also reflects a level of egotistical arrogance that few people have.
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Date: Wed, Dec 02, 1998 at 23:21:33 (EST)
From: Mole
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Is MJ getting flak from his
Message:
kids? He recently said:

'Everything is changing. What can you depend on? Look at families. It doesn't matter if your rich or poor. Family dynamics are the same. When you're with the kids, they want to go that way, and you want to go this way. It's always 180 degrees. It's always exactly opposite. It's not 179 degrees. It's not 181 degrees because that would be getting closer to you. It's always exactly opposite.'

Methinks that the boys, Hansie and Amar are not very interested in working at Visions or singing a song for the live satellite feed. Maybe they are a little ashamed that their father is parading around like someone who knows something--you know--THE LORD OF THE UNIVERSE.

Methings they like the CASH but not the TANGO.
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Date: Wed, Dec 02, 1998 at 23:48:08 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Mole
Subject: Is MJ getting flak from his
Message:
Well, kids are kinda like that even if you're not the lard. I think that's just one of his campaigns to send his 'what can you count on in this world (except moi)' message out to parents.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 01:18:41 (EST)
From: tunnel rat
Email: None
To: Mole
Subject: Is MJ getting flak from his
Message:
me thinks they have seen this site
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 11:30:48 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Is MJ getting flak from his
Message:
Imagine the disparity between the day-to-day papa rawatt, who we all know is a cold, manipulating tyrant bastard on the personal level, which his kids see on a daily basis, and the Lard of the Universe/master facade he puts on at programs, which they see also.

The dissonance must be striking and surely kick up a huge pile of cynicism and disrespect for goober by his own kids.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 20:04:50 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: tunnel rat
Subject: Is MJ getting flak from his
Message:
I have always had much interest in this subject.
My boys are the same age and I just can't imagine what they must being thinking about their father. I would absolutely be embarrassed.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 13:24:40 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Mole
Subject: Is MJ getting flak from his
Message:
[Malibu?] Mole:

RE: Methinks that the boys, Hansie and Amar are not very interested in working at Visions or singing a song for the live satellite feed. Maybe they are a little ashamed that their father is parading around like someone who knows something--you know--THE LORD OF THE UNIVERSE.

Maybe, but when it comes time for the succession I'll bet they'll be right on board.

-Scott
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 13:55:33 (EST)
From: Crown Publishing
Email: None
To: interested readers
Subject: God's son...My life as the
Message:
son of the Lord of the Universe.

In this stinging expose of the cult of the Divine Light Mission and it's leader Guru Maharaji, his son Hans Rawat shares his childhood experiences as the son of one of the worlds most well known cult leaders.

' At a certain age every boy feels his father is God, and at a certain age every boy goes through the painful realization that his father is a mere mortal. For me it was more complicated than that. Everyone around me also believed Dad was God, and Dad himself I felt at times belived it too. When I had to face my father's flaws, I had to choose between my family and what I knew to be right.'

' I looked out onto the crowd of devotees and they were a sea of hands. The music played 'Dance Dance Dance' my father, dressed in a Krishna outfit a little reminiscent of the costume Genie wore in 'I dream of Genie' stood and danced. I was awed by the power my father held. And at that time I never questioned it. I was certain everyone in the world felt my father was their lord. What experiences did I have to contradict it? Soon I too was wearing this 'mala' or Krishna costume.'

In his book Rawat shares the details of his life only those in the inner circle of the cult knew. His mother's painful realization of her husbands sexual encounters with women devotees and her desire to leave, how his mother was threatened when she tried to, the details of the unending greed for material possessions, and most compelling, how Hans was able to make an identity for himself outside the cult. A must read for those who followed the story of the Guyana tragedy or those who have themselves or have had a loved one ensnared by a cult, this book is only a fantasy in the mind of an ex member of the Divine Light Mission. But who knows, Hansi could do it...and perhaps it would be a bestseller.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 14:59:14 (EST)
From: ghostwriter
Email: None
To: all
Subject: God's son...My life as the
Message:
in chapter three Hans shares..

'The part of the festivals we kids hated the most was the Darshan lines. What is a Darshan line? Well, believe it or not it is sort of like a recieving line with a twist. All the premies would file through to kiss my father's feet. Dad hated this but could not part with the practice as it was the big draw of the festivals and very lucrative. Like many men with a great deal of money and power my Dad had a tendency toward germ phobia. The idea of being exposed to the germs of 10,000 people was just disgusting to him. There was also always the fear that someone would go beserk and hurt him. He had an elaborate security detail as well as wearing many thick socks to protect his feet from the masses. He would never remove the socks himself so as not to touch the germs that had been deposited there. We kids usually had some elaborate little play area set up by the devotees. That part was fun. But the ordeal took all day and tended to put dad in a lousy mood. '

' Sometimes something would happen that was interesting. One time I saw this premie guy pretend to faint just because he was standing next to this gorgeous initiator woman whose job it was to 'catch' devotees who were overwhlemed with bliss at the site of my Dad. As he fell he buried his head in her cleavage. It was a crackup; at least someone was having a good time'
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 15:52:33 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: ghostwriter
Subject: Very funny. It wasn't me.
Message:
GW:

One time I saw this premie guy pretend to faint just because he was standing next to this gorgeous initiator woman whose job it was to 'catch' devotees who were overwhlemed with bliss at the site of my Dad. As he fell he buried his head in her cleavage. It was a crackup; at least someone was having a good time'

Now, THAT is believable!

-Scott
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 15:46:41 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Crown Publishing
Subject: God's son...My life as the
Message:
Crown:

RE: this book is only a fantasy in the mind of an ex member of the Divine Light Mission. But who knows, Hansi could do it...and perhaps it would be a bestseller.

I do not see the value in this very unlikely fantasy. Svetlana's book about her father Joseph makes contextual sense (especially now) because he had been denounced by everyone, including Kruschev. My guess is that the apple won't fall far from the tree, in the long run. Spoiled and indulged kids are not going to develop a real conscience unless something else happens. Most 'Poifect Meahstahs' are succeeded by someone who closely resembles the guru (physically), and this gives male children an edge. My guess is that they are counting on it, and wish he would just get lost. Very pretty picture.

-Scott
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 19:14:48 (EST)
From: Laura
Email: None
To: Crown Publishing
Subject: I want the book
Message:
I'll even pay for the hardcover version, thanks.
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 12:38:09 (EST)
From: Bantaam Books
Email: None
To: Laura
Subject: Big fat advance for book
Message:
We ready to give you twice the advance that Monica Lewinski is getting plus a big fat 30% of net.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 15:18:15 (EST)
From: chr
Email: None
To: Mole
Subject: Is MJ getting flak from his
Message:
In the time I did security around M--mainly 78 to 82 --what I saw of his relationship to his children ,especially Hansi,was warm and friendly.Whatever else he may have been, he did come across to me as a concerned caring father.Part of the dilemma with M was that there were enough times of care,concern ,humour etc for most of us to rationalise the other aspects as his lila or whatever.I think its important to be clear on things.I have my doubts about Ms affairs. I saw no indication of illicit affairs going on and he genuinly seemed very much with his family.Im sure there are others who know more ,but I'd like to here more than just hearsay.M was/is a complex character and I think we need to go further than just stereotyping him as an evil tyrant.Then again maybe thats all he is.The nazi SS loved their kids too .Is there anybody out there who has real insight,based on experience ,into this man?
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 16:06:40 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: chr
Subject: Is MJ getting flak from his
Message:
I also have no idea what M's relationship is with his kids. He has bragged about them, although they should do well considering they have been waited on, hand and foot, since they were born by adoring premies. They have also wanted for nothing in their lives. I would imagine they might bee a bit spoiled, though.

I agree that summing up Maharaji is not a simple thing. But just bringing out he truth tends to debunk his supposed divinity. He's just a person who has lived and extremely bizarre life since he was born. I'm not surprised he is a bundle of contradictions.

And I'm also sure he can be a real nice guy when he wants to be. But that gets kind of overshadowed if you begin to see he is fraudulent in how he portrays, or has portrayed himself, and took advantage of the deception. He likely isn't evil, but in one VERY BIG area, that hurt a lot of people, he's done some despicable stuff, like portraying himself as god and then asking that people devote their lives to him, and he isn't even willing to admit it, apparently because people wouldn't give him money anymore if he did. Very few people have done anything as slimy as that!
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 23:17:47 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: What IS evil then?
Message:
'He likely isn't evil'...

What is evil, then, JW, in your opinion? I think Maharaji IS evil precisely because he seems to be lacking in a conscience towards those who have devoted their lives to him. I do agree with chr that we should be careful to find the facts to create an accurate picture, and the picture is one of complexity. But I am alarmed that you say you don't think he is evil.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 23:53:36 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Gee, Helen
Message:
I think you took that statement slightly out of context. I think I said pretty clearly that he did slimy, fraudulent things. I just agreed with chr that I don't find it helpful to just label him as inherently evil. I was around him enough to think that wasn't the case in the sense that he is intent on causing suffering, enjoys inflicting pain, abuses children or animals, and isn't suffering under delusions about who or what he is. In fact, I don't really know what it means to call someone evil. Is that to say he's the devil? The prince of darkness? I just think it's more complicated than that.

But as I said, the bad stuff he's done clearly outweighs any of the good stuff in my opinion..
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 00:14:57 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Gee, Helen
Message:
The only reason I challenged you is that I think we tend to use the word 'evil' for the types of people you describe: the real hard core evil types who clearly enjoy inflicting pain. I read this book by Scott Peck called 'children of the Lie' that has a lot of case studies of clients he dealt with who were narcissistic and caused all kind of pain without thought for others. Peck's definition of evil is narcissism to this extent. I'd say that GM really fits that definition.

I do know the context you were speaking in and from your many posts I know where you're coming from... and hey, you've had a lot more exposure to GM and PAMs (that's an understatement) than I have, so indeed you're in a better position to paint an accurate picture/description of GM. I just want to be a little provocative and raise this question of evil. See, I think that we don't really know what evil looks like because we're expecting it to manifest really clearly to us...but perhaps evil looks like Maharaji
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 12:52:37 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Gee, Helen
Message:
Helen, you may be right that 'evil' is such a loaded term and has so many connotations for people that it might not have much use. It verges on name-calling, rather than being a very helpful description. I think one tends to lose credibility by just labeling someone in such black and white terms. Rather, for me, I think it's most helpful just to focus on the behaviors we think are reprehensible, and then let people make up their own minds about what kind of person would do things like that. It requires a certain degree of speculation, but I think it's something any thinking and moral person is obligated to do.

I agree that the worst things about Maharaji was/is his utter and cavalier lack of caring about his devotees. That's number one in my opinion and it sounds like you agree. The second thing is that he is a fraud and I believe he has, at least at times, been quite aware that he is a fraud and instead of owning up to that, he has tried to just change the subject, keep things vague, blame others, and pretend like it never happened (the lord of the universe stuff, and the like.) Maybe you could call those things 'evil,' but I don't think it's helpful to label the person 'evil.'
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 14:41:14 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: EVIL EVIL EVIL
Message:
Well, I agree with everything you say but I still say he is evil, and I have no hesitancy in saying that (and that's not a word I throw around every day) But perhaps as you say that term 'evil' is too loaded with connotations to be useful. Most of us have had experiences hearing bigoted people call gays evil or some such nonsense so not everyone is on the same page about what evil means. . I certainly know what you mean about connotative and annotative uses of language. It gets tricky.
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 16:05:42 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: EVIL EVIL EVIL
Message:
Helen:

I thought that Peck was mainly focussed on so-called 'repressive' personalities. These are people who make it their primary mission to keep others from doing anything, by either standing in their way or diverting them. It is a perverse behavior, and I think goes beyond mere self-love. To me, the issue is: would M be repressive no matter what circumstances he was in, or is it a function of his status and position? I tend to think the latter. In his own greedy way he probably genuinely thinks he is facilitating people. Or have I misread Peck?

-Scott
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 16:38:44 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Scott Peck
Message:
What was significant to me about Children of the Lie is that it offered up a different explanation--a psychological one--of evil. That is an interesting question about repression. I didn't derive that from the book, but sometimes I'm not too bright at getting the main points! None of the the case studies in the book resembled Maharaji, but they did deal with people who were self-absorbed, magical thinkers, people without conscience. I've got to believe that GM is very self-absorbed and narcissistic. I've got to believe that his conscience is not really in place, which may be part of the 'disturbed' behavior some have talked about here. I think the man has got to be disturbed in some way.
But you know you are right, he probably does, on some level think that he is facilitating something good and that is how he rationalizes everything to himself. The guy is a case for some psychologist to have a heyday
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 19:49:12 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Scott/JW
Subject: self-absorption, expanded
Message:
Specifically, what I find evil about Maharaji (which also seemed to be part of Peck's definition of evil):

1) lack of empathy (totally). If he is such a 'lover' where is his empathy for his premies? For their illnesses, misfortunes, disillusionment, etc. Where is his empathy for the world and its problems?

2) Inability to take another person's perspective. I don't think he is able to do this--do you? He is always refering to himself, and seems to have contempt for perspectives other than his own. His path is 'one size fits all' and if you have a different perspective, his response is 'there's the door'

3) selfishness and greed to an astronomical level, to an extent where lives and health have been lost to meet his demands. Power & authority have gone completely to his head.
4) if his path is a genuine spiritual path, it is unnecessarily cruel. People are forced to choose between Maharaji and objective reality, because his path is antithetical to what most people would define as reality. That is cruel in my opinion, because it can make people crazy, not trusting themselves, getting sick, fracturing families etc
He:
Never addresses these issues. Never shows humility, regret, remorse, responsibility for these issues.
This guy is a world-class narcissist, in my opinion.
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 21:07:45 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: status & position
Message:
To answer your original ?: GM is repressive as a function of his status and position (IMHO). But his status and position has made him corrupt & disturbed in other ways so that now I believe he is repressive because he is disturbed AND because of his status and position. Does that answer the question?
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 19:07:10 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Mole
Subject: Moon's kid
Message:
Is alleged to be a cocaine and wife abuser. His wife, Moon's in-law, divorced him finally after years of struggling with the facts. Pretty straightforward kind of scenario and
IT CAN HAPPEN to BM.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 19:41:02 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Moon's kid
Message:
I think she's writing a book about it too - should be quite interesting.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 19:49:16 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Moon's kid
Message:
She just wrote a book about it all. In it, according to an interview I heard, she said Moon is deluded enough to really believe hs is the messiah, and that he just blames whatever goes wrong on others.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 20:05:53 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Moon's kid
Message:
Gee, what a surprise!

I think the book is called 'In the Shadow of the Moons', or a similar title. (We must have read the same New Yorker article, JW).
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 20:14:33 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Moon's kid
Message:
Actually, I also heard her interviewed on my local Pacifica, listener sponsored, radio station, KPFA-FM in Berkeley on a show called Flashpoints, hosted by David Bernstein.

I was fascinated by the interview because she talked about her gradual disillusionment with the cult, and Moon, and how hard it was to get away. She also spoke generally about how cults take very intelligent, sincere people and make them unable to think for themselves. When she tried to publish the book, she had to go to court because Moon tried to stop her. Obviously, she won.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 20:56:17 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Surely, 'dark side of the...'
Message:
would have been the obvious title?
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 00:19:26 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: Surely, 'dark side of the...'
Message:
Moon's thing reinforced ultr-chauvinist stereotypes (e.g. it's allright to beat your wife, etc.) which are intrinsic to him culturally. M uses bhakti concepts to rationalize his enslavement of others (prob uses it to rationalize it to himself but I think about it more than I should).
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 06:10:00 (EST)
From: ham
Email: spam@hamzen.demon.co.uk
To: Runamok
Subject: run (ot)
Message:
Tried e-mailing you again recently but you'd done a runner!
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Date: Wed, Dec 02, 1998 at 22:54:36 (EST)
From: Mole
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The One-Minute Commercial
Message:
PICURE THIS:

Letters flying over the screen to spell:

HEART OF LOVE HEART OF LOVE HEART OF LOVE HEART OF LOVE over and over and over again.

First ever satellite feed, Sunday, December 13, 1998.
Coming to a location near you.

BE THERE! [subliminal command from the master **remember--'When I call, you come running!']
_________________________________

MJs comments:

There will be a big screen for you to see me. There will be monitors of the other halls so all participants including the Lord can groove on everyone else's devotion. Actually, MJ said that the monitors were in place so that 'We (royal we, no doubt) can see what you're doing--like falling asleep or whatever!'

Vancouver - 08:00, Calgary - 09:00, Toronto - 11:00,
Montreal - 11:00

Cost: $60
[There is a space on the form for extra tax-deductible contributions and a GRAND TOTAL. Of course, you may pay by credit card.

Think of it:

4 Sites in Canada (2 000 X 60) = $120 000 minimum before donations

This December 13 message is being sent all over the US, Australia, Europe, Japan, Malaysia, and any country with devotees and the technology to support the gig. WHAT A MONEY MAKER.

Meanwhile, the Lord will be in a small venue in Pasedena, California. Probably only his most rich and/or devoted will be there.

I think he has cancelled Long Beach out of fear. There are more and more disgruntled ex's out there. They may eventually cause trouble at a program. He is better off to do programs this way. I think he is running scared.
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Date: Wed, Dec 02, 1998 at 23:27:19 (EST)
From: Mole
Email: None
To: Mole
Subject: If you don't speak English,
Message:
translation will be available for a nominal fee. Everyone can hear his precious message.

He also mentioned that K used to be hard to get. People were happy to do service for ten years without complaint or expectation. He admitted that masters of the past were arrogant.

Of course, he's not. He just sits on stage and brags about how rich he is, how nice his suits are, how smart he is (100% on his flight qualifying tests), how talented his children are, blah, blah, blah ...
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 09:47:17 (EST)
From: Orlando
Email: None
To: Mole
Subject: dear canadian mole
Message:
keep guessing
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 13:48:58 (EST)
From: Orlando
Email: None
To: Mole
Subject: more for mold
Message:
Furthermore, he IS having a program in the LA area. i guess he is not that scared of california ex, is he? check your facts, man
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 13:21:13 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Orlando
Subject: more for mold
Message:
Furthermore, he IS having a program in the LA area. i guess he is not that scared of california ex, is he? check your facts, man

Exactly what are you talking about here?? What problem is he having in the LA area?

As for Maharaji being scared of ex's disrupting a program - he'd have to be pretty paranoid to make that jump. The most disruptive 'threat' that I've ever seen here was someone suggesting that cards be passed out at programs advertising this site.

I have personally suggested that premies should stand up at programs and demand answers to their questions. That wouldn't be disruptive, IMHO, since it would be helping His Nibs back into the Company Of Truth - where Satgurus belong and frauds fear to tread.
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 14:32:22 (EST)
From: Orlando
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: more for mold
Message:
Brian

you write:
'Exactly what are you talking about here?? What problem is he having in the LA area?'
i write:

the canadian mole was writing in a previous post that M. is doing a satellite event because he is 'running scared' in front of so many california ex who could disrupt his program. please read the post before commmenting any further ( i accept your apology)
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 15:36:13 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: more for mold
Message:
I think it was a typo - he typed 'problem' for 'program' (a Freudian slip, perhaps).

Do you still need an apology?
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 16:30:36 (EST)
From: Orlando
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: more for mold
Message:
from you, Katie, not necessary
i trust you
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 18:36:56 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: more for mold
Message:
Thank you Orlando.
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 16:54:38 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Orlando
Subject: more for mold
Message:
Sheeesh! When you wrote he is having a program, I read that as having a problem. I need someone to read this stuff to me. My eyes are getting old...
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Date: Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 22:52:25 (EST)
From: peter
Email: None
To: Brian & Orlando
Subject: Orlando's eyesight
Message:
Brian, you aren't the only one with failing eyesight. Orlando thought he had a big scoop announcing that M is having a LA-area program, when it was in Mole's original post that M will be in a small venue in Pasadena for the satellite feed on the 13th.

Mole didn't ex plain why he thought fear of exes might cause Maharaji to cancel Long Beach, but not interfere with the satellite feed from Pasadena. Probably wishful thinking. But clearly the Long Beach event is much bigger and more public.
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Date: Wed, Dec 02, 1998 at 21:22:00 (EST)
From: Sir D
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Satan and our diet
Message:
I found this on the net:

'In 1973 Billy Graham sponsored 'SPRESS '73' in which 20,000 Christians came to study the Word of God, this happened in London. In Houston Texas at the same time Maharaji Ji claimed to be 'the savior of the world' and that he was ushering in the 1,000 year reign of peace and prosperity that was foretold in the Bible. Notice, God is moving, then Satan also counters with his minister. One thing is certain Billy Graham is still going strong and nobody knows where Maharaji Ji is, his cult declined into nothing.'

So now we know. Maharaji is Satan's minister. By the way, on the other topic of food and health; I saw a programme on TV the other day which showed that American research has shown that meat eaters in America have a three times more chance of getting dementia or Altzeimer's disease than vegetarians in America. This is not connected with our British BSE or mad cow disease.

So I guess the worst thing you could do is microwave a joint of beef. These food scares are reletive though. You might never microwave food and be vegetarian but die of a heart attack due to worrying about what you're eating. Many of these bad dietry influences can be offset by a sensible vitamin suppliment. Vitamin C is a good antioxident. Also, the cooking of food in aluminium pans has shown to increase the likelyhood of dementia. I wonder if the researchers of the American carnivors/vegetarians took this into account. For sure they don't know WHY there is a higher incidence of dementia in regular meat eaters. That's still unknown but the non organic animal feeds are suspected.
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Date: Wed, Dec 02, 1998 at 21:33:10 (EST)
From: Sir D again (correction)
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Sir D
Subject: Satan and our diet
Message:
Of course, I SHOULD have written in my comment about the Maharaji/Billy Graham article;

so now we know, Billy Graham is Satan's minister. How silly of me to miss the obvious in the phrase; 'Notice, God is moving, then Satan also counters with his minister.' Sorry premies!
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 03:45:38 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Sir D
Subject: Official Forum Policy
Message:
=don't eat Miragey's shit.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 12:41:50 (EST)
From: Barfy
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Official Forum Policy
Message:
=don't eat Miragey's shit

But, I was told that it was prashad. Besides, a Holy Water (don't know how to spell charnimarnith) chaser takes away the bitter taste.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 10:35:41 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Sir D
Subject: Satan and our diet
Message:
Sir: Don't forget, when it comes to beef, you get more than you bargained for. They pump it chock-full of hormones, etc, that may actually be the problem, not the meat itself.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 20:05:09 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Sir D
Subject: pitchknives and pitchspoons
Message:
David:

RE: For sure they don't know WHY there is a higher incidence of dementia in regular meat eaters.

Indeed, this is the major flaw in most of the studies I've seen. There are so many methodological pitfalls in doing this sort of empirical research that if you don't have a credible theory about your findings it makes sense to accept them with a big grain of salt. The 'cause' may not have much to do with meat at all, but with some another variable that's tied to, or confounded with, meat eating. My theory is that steak knives cause dimentia. They have those little pointy tips that are almost completely useless. Teaspoons are another big problem. We ought to be able to use shovels at table.

-Scott
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 21:32:22 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Sir D
Subject: The trouble with food research
Message:
...is pretty much the same as that with medical research and drug research. All too often it is paid for by people looking for one answer only, whether it be private company or government agency, and the findings will only be published if the right answer is delivered.

Also the results which are said to be 'highly significant' in statistical terms are often tiny effects spread across large sample sizes. For example, if somebody found that the average height of one million Jehovah's Witnesses (assuming there are that many) was one seventeenth of a centimetre greater than the height of the average Mormon, taken from an equal-sized sample - to use an absurd example - the effect would certainly be statistically significant, if you use the right test. But unless somebody could come up with an explanation about why this should be so, or whether the difference is even big enough to care about and - more important - until the study has been independently replicated a few times, people should take no notice whatsoever.

And never forget that life itself is a sexually-transmitted terminal condition we would probably all be better off without. But until someone provides conclusive proof that we ought to top ourselves, I suggest we stop worrying about food, and enjoy it instead.

Nigel

(a frequently sick vegetarian for fifteen years, since turned healthy carnivore)
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 23:04:47 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Carnivore?
Message:
Nigel:

You are a carnivore? How do you live w/o spuds?

-Scott
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 04:36:19 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Oops, you're right of course..
Message:
I meant to say 'cannibal'.
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 16:12:34 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: Oops, you're right of course..
Message:
Nigel:

RE: I meant to say 'cannibal'.

This is someone who ingests cannibas? That would be a subclass of vegetarians wouldn't it?

-Scott
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 17:56:22 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: No no no
Message:
Scott, Scott, Scott: A cannibal is someone that eats cannibus (you know, the 'sativa' type cannibus)..... he he he.

This is going to degenerate fast, I can tell.... he he he.
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 18:59:39 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: 98% vegetarians
Message:
Like ham, I eat only vegetarians, 98% of the time (raw, of course). It is supposed to be healthier, or so leading cannibal nutritionists tell me.
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 19:06:13 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: 98% vegetarians
Message:
Nigel: I've always wondered, since I am such an avid hunter, how on earth do you 'track' a vegetarian? It would seem that they would have the same footprint as a carnivore, but maybe I'm wrong here..... he he he. I've heard the meat is a little 'gamey,' too. ;-)
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Date: Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 05:38:25 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Mike
Subject: That's easy...
Message:
As every skoolboy kno, you can follow them to the water-hole, and watch them drink. The carnivores lick the water, and the vegetarians suck it. Don't you remember anything the Lord taught you?
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 10:46:13 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Ahhh, Man
Message:
How quickly I forget.... he he he.
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 06:06:44 (EST)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: The trouble with food research
Message:
'(a frequently sick vegetarian for fifteen years, since turned healthy carnivore)'

But were you a raw food veggie? Are you feeling any karma on your new diet?

Glad you're back, sorely missed.

ham, a non-religious fag smoking spliff non-inhaling 98% vegan!
I've found the dementia stuff to be a brilliant wind-up at work, but I can get away with it there, I HATE this site!
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Date: Wed, Dec 02, 1998 at 18:59:37 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: shp comes up from down below
Message:
jim,
i am a very realistic person. some of the things said on this site have given me reason to pause and look at myself and my life.

the commandment says: 'leave no room for doubt in your mind.'
ok, fine.

i say to you this: i have no doubt in my mind that some of the things said in this site trouble me. i have no doubt in my mind that some things said in this site make me wonder. i have no doubt in my mind that some things said in this site need documentation and clarification to be believed. i have no doubt in my mind that i now have doubt in my mind.

and in my heart, i am still being loyal to 'having no room for doubt in my mind'. i am being true to myself, as shakespeare said, so i cannot be false to anyone.

this is who i am. i am just a man and a lover of truth.
don't leave me hangin', man...


shp,

Saul's right. A lot of the facts are spread throughout this web site. Have you looked around much? I'd also highly recommend JM's page which you can find as a link to 'Indian Background'. Ever have the experience of giving satsang to someone from India back in the seventies? Even if they were impressed with our zeal, even if they ultimately got k and adopted Maharaji as their guru, these people were much better at seeing Maharaji in context. They'd seen and heard of gurus for years and being Indian itself certainly loses its mystique on fellow Indians. Maharaji's done all he can to escape his cultural context. JM's page helps complete the picture.

Katie's also quite right. People who want to spare Maharaji any and all crticism go to outrageous lengths. It's as if he, the great master, Lord of the Universe, Mr. not-a-leaf-moves-without-my-grace, was just some little boy playing with his stereo when anything shitty happened. Present them with his very own ashram manual -- one classic example of codified oppression -- and they'll find some way to deflect the obvious import of this document. Really, Maharaji apologists play the same game holocaust deniers do. There are no facts sufficient to prove anything because no facts are accepted for their fair effect.

The big fact here, shp, is that Maharaji is not the Lord of the Universe come with more power than ever before, saviour of mankind, poised to imminently leap and carry all sentient beings to salvation. That dream's dead. Maharaji has a lot to answer for but now that you have some questions of your own why not turn around and ask him yourself. Ask HIM about his brother, the OTHER Guru Maharaj Ji, and how he touted him as completely God realized until Satpal split and sued him. Ask him how he could have thought Satpal was so 'realized if, in fct, he wasn't. Then ask him if perhaps he's a little mixed up about his own 'realization'. Ask him how he would ever know besides, of course, by mere wishful thinking.

There's a lot you can ask Maharaji. I'd love to hear his answers.

Here's a thought. Why not write to ELK and ask them if they'd start an 'Ask Maharaji Hard Questions' page. Not stuff like 'Maharaji, will you teach me to love you more?' or 'Maharaji, when are you coming to Sacramento, we really need you' but actual questions. That way we can all learn something.
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Date: Wed, Dec 02, 1998 at 23:51:56 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: DRIP! DRIP! DRIP!
Message:
Here here, Jim, you are the dripmeister (and I mean that with all seriousness) I don't mean you are a drip (even though you did grab that woman's balloon) but that you are the King of Drip Causation ie, WAKE UP DAMN IT!
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 00:18:59 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: shp comes up from down below
Message:
i will deal with my issues in my own way - but i will deal with them. i haven't 'turned', but i do have questions that i need answered in order to continue on the way that i have been on since 1978.

i'll be in touch. take care.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 02:37:05 (EST)
From: Saul
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: shp comes up from down below
Message:
shp:

You take care too. I've been really impressed with your
honesty and open mindedness in an environment that I'm sure
can seem pretty hostile sometimes (but also very authentic and
fun).

I hope that you'll keep having wonderful profound experiences
too. Maybe they'll even be better if you decide that they are truly your own; and if you need to thank anyone for your breath,
it should be your Mom and Dad first of all.

Saul
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 08:02:06 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Saul
Subject: nice post, Saul-nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 11:43:29 (EST)
From: david m
Email: whaler32@aol.com
To: shp
Subject: shp comes up from down below
Message:
Hey shp....
Im really glad you need some questions answered....thats the first step...and you should do it your own way...if you need any help give me a shout...we really are here to help....peace....dave
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 15:52:41 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: david m
Subject: shp is constantly evolving
Message:
thanks for making yourself available to communicate with.

the way i see things, there are:

a) things one can do to oneself and possibly absorb the negatives (smoking, drinking, stuff like that) which i have no problem with anyone doing or not doing, even M,

and

b)things one can do to others...

it's the b) part that i need to understand in this case....

to b) or not to b), that is the question...

gotta have a sense of humor or ya go crazy!
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 16:28:02 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Understanding DECA - help!
Message:
dear shp -
I can understand your concern about the people who worked for DECA and were injured and/or treated poorly. I do think you asked some good questions about the extent of Maharaji's involvement and awareness of these matter, not to mention inspections by OHSA and the like. (I have worked in mining and other industrial/chemical operations, so I am slightly cynical about how long OSHA's arm is, BTW.) I would also like to put together the pieces of people's testimony about DECA and the related premie companies that existed in Miami during the late 1970's and early 1980's.

My current understanding is that Maharaji wanted that plane done FAST, perfectly, and as cheaply as possible (with money from premie donations rather than his personal bank account). I get the impression that he probably didn't concern himself too much with the details of how this was accomplished, although he was apparently quite interested in the detailing of the plane itself. The other factor that plays into this is that Maharaji was considered to be god at that time - therefore if he gave an order (agya), the premies followed it to the best of their ability. I would suspect that many of the unsafe working conditions resulted from trying to do a perfect job very quickly with a limited amount of money. I've heard of OSHA regs being violated all over the place (not just under Maharaji), and money and/or time (which usually means money) has been the reason.

The above is an educated guess which I've put together by reading the testimony of various people who worked on DECA (not to mention RT's story of how the premies working on Maharaji's big new house - for free - in the 1990's, were treated.) If anyone knows differently, please correct me.

Now, the question of responsibility comes up: who was responsible for the unsafe working conditions. Was it the workers themselves? Was it their supervisors? Was it the premies who instructed the supervisors? Or was it Maharaji - even if he didn't know the details of what was going on? I think it was Maharaji who was ultimately responsible, since all the other people apparently believed they were doing service for God himself, and thus were willing to do whatever it took to do what he wanted when he wanted it. Basically, it sounds like he gave the orders and the premies followed them. You may decide this question of responsibility differently. I (and I'm sure you) would like to hear more from the people who actually worked on the project, but that's what I think after hearing what I've heard so far (there is more in the older archives, by the way).

Regards,
Katie
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 20:21:05 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Understanding DECA - help!
Message:
At the manufacturing facility where I work the workers refuse to work in unsafe conditions. What would entice them to continue working? Lots of money. Greed. Could it be that the premies who continued to work in those conditions where greedy for something?
Or were they inexperienced? Or just plain stupid? If you don't take care of yourself who will? Maharaji isn't here to take care of anyone. He puts the game in motion and we volunteer, if we dare.
The first time I saw Maharaji, I drove 1700 miles and he didn't show up. He called in by phone and everyone was ecstatic to hear him. I thought he had a lot of gall. The guy plays hardball. But so does life. I'd say he cuts you a bit more slack than life does.
I am enjoying the page.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 20:58:45 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: Understanding DECA - help!
Message:
Could it be that the premies who continued to work in those conditions where greedy for something?

Zac,

Welcome, by the way. I think you make a good point here. I know my greedy little self was desiring something beyond the usual ken of human life. Enlightenment, permanent bliss, permanent peace, permanent choy, as Rajaswar used to say. Greed. Yup

What's everyone else think?
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 00:09:58 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Understanding DECA - help!
Message:
It's called putting all your fucking eggs in one fucking basket. All of your life experiences have brought you to this point- you are on the cusp of the Yugas. Nothing matters, your family, career, sex, because you are about to obtain the ultimate. At Hans Jayanti 79, M said we are at the end of thousands of lifetimes of evolution, and if we blow it this time, we will end up having to start all over again. After 30 days of bliss doing service at the site, that sent a cold stab of fear through me, especially when he 'looked right at me when he said that'. Course, that happened all the time, must be a comon illusion in mass gatherings, very effective.

The more bridges you burn, the less you have to lose.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 21:18:57 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: Understanding DECA - help!
Message:
Dear Zac,
Well, I know they weren't greedy for money because many of them got paid little or nothing. I think they might have been greedy to serve the Lord of the Universe, but can you blame them? At that time, we DID believe that Maharaji would take care of us, believe it or not. He asked people to 'surrender the reins of their lives' to him - this was a vow we took. There was a tremendous amount of pressure to be completely devoted to him.

My best friend and her husband moved to Miami to work on DECA. They felt terrible because they were married with small children and didn't live in the ashram, thus could never be truly devoted (I know M doesn't say this anymore, BTW.) Working for DECA made them feel like they might be doing 'enough' for Maharaji.

Maharaji took away all opportunities for service that was not DIRECTLY to him in the late 1970's. Prior to this, we used to visit nursing homes, mental hospitals, etc. and count this as 'service'. Thus it became quite difficult to do service unless you lived in the ashram (unless you had a lot of money to donate, I suppose). At that time, doing service was supposed to be essential to the experience of knowledge, so most people were eager to have an opportunity.

Although it may be different where you work, in the places where I have seen or heard about people working in unsafe conditions, it is usually because the people themselves don't know the conditions are unsafe (for example: asbestos removal, chemical disposal, fruit and vegetable picking, etc.) Sometimes these people are hired off the street corner as 'casual labor', or are migrant workers. They don't know enough to be their own advocates, or to know what kind of danger they are in. You may say that they are greedy for money, but most of them just need some kind of job to be able to eat and support their families.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 03, 1998 at 16:28:06 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: shp is constantly evolving
Message:
Hi shp (talks to dirt)
, glad you are considering these issues surrounding GM. I contend that thinking this all through can only make your life better, not worse. Well, it may get worse before it gets better (every healing crisis is like that) but ultimately it will be for your greater good.

By the way, I wanted to let you know I bought a book by that healer you mentioned who talks about 'woundology'. Maybe I can gain some insights into my arthritis. Just wanted to let you know you've influenced me , brother. All of us are constantly evolving in our own way. I remember GM always used to say 'Don't be afraid to grow' and yet for me, growing meant 'out-growing' him. But that's OK--the important thing is to grow...
Love,
Dances with dogs
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 11:26:22 (EST)
From: david m
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: .B or not to B
Message:
shp....
//the key to everything is to be what you are....not just to follow blindly...It took me a long time to really be honest,truthfull,questioning the whole dlm bit...time is the winner in the whole scheme of things. ...peace...dave
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Date: Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 00:53:18 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: shp comes up from down below
Message:
shp:

RE: i will deal with my issues in my own way - but i will deal with them. i haven't 'turned', but i do have questions that i need answered in order to continue on the way that i have been on since 1978.

By all means take your time. Plenty of it. But stuffing mud in the chinks won't really get you where you want to go. I recall my reaction to reading David Lane's site, and mainly the sense that Maharaji was such a small fish. I could make excuses for someone who had been misunderstood, who had some profound mission. But it was clear after a while that there was nothing profound about him. He's not even a tragic hero. Just a schmutz. (I think my technical terminology is in the ball park at least.)

The 'Perfect Master' concept just reduces to a family of schmutzes hovering around this neurological fluke that graces humans. What's the story behind this? I don't know, but M clearly has no real connection to it at all. The only criterion he ever even began to meet was his membership in a mystagogue tradition that he has since repudiated. You have a perfect right to follow the guy if you want to, but you've got some obligation to ask where he's going and if he can get there (let alone get you there.

-Scott
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Date: Wed, Dec 02, 1998 at 04:41:58 (EST)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Maharaji wears womens clothing
Message:
Got a hypothetical for you all.

If Maharaji had been a woman - do you think you would have had the same interest/involvement that you did with Maharaji as a man? Now I haven't posted this to provoke any kind of gender debate, but because I have often wondered about this myself from time to time (and besides there really is no debate as to which is the SUPERIOR sex - isn't that right fellow wymmun and sisters - ha ha!).

Now once you change his sex, I know you change his whole fate, but what if Shri Hans had not given birth to sons, but daughters instead? Do you think Shri Hans would have still passed on the baton to the wee Maharajina, or would some male mahatma been given it instead? I know the Indians on the whole are a sexist bunch, but chickie-babes like Indira Ghandi and Mara managed to get through, and a lot of premies thought Mata Ji was pretty holy, so maybe that could have happened....however that DLM lineage bit that JM posted on his site didn't really indicate the existence of women as Perfect Masters in Rhadshoami/DLM history, so probably not.

But let's say little Maharajina had passed that first little fate-change, what would the reaction have been if in London, out of the flower-covered Rolls Royce, stepped Guru Maharaj Jina - the girl guru. Would she have had had the same effect? Personally, I don't see why not, especially if she spoke the same way and gave the same Knowledge...as they were newly liberated times....weren't they?

BUT, where I think it could be different and where this is where I have wondered about my own involvement is that all the previous so-called Perfect Masters that have played on my subconscious have been male, and maybe I wouldn't have taken so much to a female Perfect Master (even though my superior gene cells are alarmed at such an admission - ha ha!). After all, there don't seem to have been any female gurus at the level of people like Maharaji, the Maharishi, the Rajneesh etc (please correct me if I'm wrong as Maharaji even skipped my attention as a youngster). Sure there have been the odd female mini-cult leader around the place (we've got a couple here in Oz who have bought lots of houses in the odd country town with a couple of hundred followers) and Jim mentioned a sick one in a previous thread, but I wonder how much Maharaji being a 'male' has contributed to this strange and mystical journey he's had and we've had. Any thoughts on the subject?
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Date: Wed, Dec 02, 1998 at 14:21:39 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: TD
Subject: Maharaji wears womens clothing
Message:
Interesting question, TD. I suspect the standard cult influences of self-delusion, compliance, conformity, peer-pressure and wishful thinking would work just as well if you had a Guru Margarine.

But would Jennifer Boise have written that poem? I doubt it somehow.
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Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 18:09:53 (EST)
From: TD
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: Maharaji wears womens clothing
Message:
Thanks Nigel for replying to what has ended up being on the whole an off topic thread! (BTW and OT, in the inner-city area I live, microwave ovens and VCR's end up being very attractive squats for passing cockroaches - so to me that indicates they aren't all that compatible with humans anyway - haha!).

I have actually thought about this topic quite a bit (obviously a lot more than a lot of other people here!), as in my case, I had a bit of a father figure issue going with the Big M, and if he had been a woman (but exactly the same in all other aspects) I don't think I would have probably had the same involvement, if at all. A number of premies I know do have that same kind of 'thing' with Maharaji and their own fathers (including my ex) and so I wonder if they also would have not had the same kind of codependency on Maharaji that they have had and still do.

I find it fascinating the 'personality cocktail' that it takes for people to become premies and for other people to be attracted to other cults. I do tend to think if M had been a woman, then there would be a percentage of Oedipus premies out there, substituting Margarine for women figures in their lives.
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Date: Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 18:17:12 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: TD
Subject: on topic (no microwaves)
Message:
I think you've got a point TD (if I may call you that). I shrink (pun intended) from all Freudian (just another religion) terminology, but now you've got me thinking, I reckon Maharaji not only benefited from premies making him a surrogate, but positively encouraged it in the early days. Even if he doesn't do it now, it is probably an automatic factor in the cult process, meaning it works because it works - and continues to work. Insecure people whose most important relationships have soured, are missing, or they might be in danger of losing, will look to Maharaji to fill the void.

There was a verse in 'Arti' (before your time, I know), that went:

You are my mother and you are my father,
You are my lover and you are my friend.
You are riches, you are wisdom,
You are my all, my all to me


Imagine the effect of singing that (at least) once a day, year in, year out.

At the same time Maharaji was encouraging us to downplay the role of all 'outside' relationships, making it hard for ashramites to get home for Christmas, etc. I wasn't in the ashram, but I remember the Christmas all-day meditation retreats set-up especially to get us away from the crazy world at this difficult time - for which we were duly grateful, of course.

But how far sex roles come in, I'm not sure. It may be the Satguru acts as substitute for whichever is the critical relationship. I clearly remember a premie woman giving satsang that went 'I have just realized Maharaj ji is my dad!' and going on to say how the tub of lard was the one person always there for her, no matter what she had done, and even though the world had turned against her, blah blah...

My own father died unexpectedly just few years before I discovered Ol' Blossom Toes, so maybe that was true for me as well (or I wanted it to be true for me as well). Thing is, my father was never a liar or a fraud, and I just wish he'd been around to warn me off.

As to 'lover' - another time I overhead a couple of sisters speculating on what it would be like to be taken to bed by the Satguru. 'Pretty cosmic...' was the consensus. (And they say this isn't a cult?)

As for the 'You are my friend, bit'- er, I am drawing a blank. Does the boy wonder have any friends? Maharaj ji has yet to phone me up and ask how I'm doing, let alone lend me a fiver when I've blown all my winnings at the dogtrack - metaphorically speaking - even though I came and did all that free labouring at his Reigate mansion, paying my own travel etc.

But the fact that I have never heard anyone refer to Maharaji as 'Mum' says you might be right, and you could get a completely different devotee profile for a Living Perfect Mistress.

(From your journey, TD, it sounds like you have a great dad. I can't help wondering what he had to say about your guru phase.)
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Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 00:49:10 (EST)
From: TD
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: on topic (and no cockroaches)
Message:
Good points there Mr Nigel! You know, even though there's no arti nowadays, there's still plenty of that 'relationships/families aren't important, M is your best most reliable friend' satsang from the Big M - it's just not so direct as the arti singsong! M has to keep reinforcing it whichever subtle way he can - otherwise us relative newbies wouldn't continue to be so devoted and dependent on him.

That's interesting that your dad died before your involvement with M. You're the only one who can say how it possibly affected you and whether you felt it subconsciously related to how you felt about M. And as for whether he would have warned you off if he'd lived longer, I guess that depends on whether you always respected/took his advice, or whether you would have rebelled against such a warning, being that age and all. But from what you said about him being a journalist - maybe he could have come up with some investigative facts to back up his advice!!

I know with me, my father didn't see my involvement and indoctrination into premiedom as I was living in another city with my premie partner whom I had met when I moved to that city. I became quite isolated from my family and friends because my partner being a full-on premie had little relationship with his family and was constantly telling me about how conditioned I was from my upbringing and that I needed to shed my family baggage. Maybe I did, who knows! Anyway it's interesting that you asked me this, because I've just realised that I never really spoke much to my father about Maharaji, and yet I would tell my mother that it was pointless being a Christian and following a dead master when you could have the Real McCoy, like me! On the whole I pretty much concealed the extent of my involvement with M from my dad, I guess deep down knowing that he was beyond conversion and would have probably talked rationally and logically about it with me, when really I wanted to be tempestuous and passionate about my spiritual journey and satguru, and did not want M open to any kind of debate - least of all with my dad!

Like you I usually tend to shy away from using labels from Freudian psychology, but I have had to acknowledge that Maharaji-Father thing as there seems to a number of correlations in my premie world. For example, my ex's father abandoned him and his family when he was in his teens which was pretty hard for him in the early 60s - and he's only seen/heard from him a couple of times since then - and he had to instigate those meetings. This event seems to have shaped so much of his life and I know for a fact (by things he has done and said) that he sees Maharaji as a substitute father. He has also spent more time personally with Maharaji than his real dad, so that would only compound the whole thing, even though he's only had that kind of proximity to M because of the type of service he's done. It's not like M's invited him over for a friendly beer at the family barbie - it's always been in a service context, but for my ex, that kind of contact is even more than what he has had with his real dad. This fact alone will mean that my ex will be one of the last men (premies) standing - he'll probably be a premie until the bitter end.
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