Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 31

From: Dec 2, 1998

To: Dec 14, 1998

Page: 2 Of: 5



Jim -:- Premie music now available -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 01:36:56 (EST)
__Jim -:- Add your review on Amazon.com -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 11:45:38 (EST)
____CD -:- Add your review on Amazon.com -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 12:30:11 (EST)
______Jim -:- I'm sorry -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 12:44:40 (EST)
______Mike -:- CD, are you aware -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 12:46:39 (EST)
________CD -:- CD, are you aware -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 13:15:49 (EST)
__________Mike -:- CD, are you aware -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 13:55:54 (EST)
__________Mike -:- I was mistaken -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 14:45:31 (EST)
____Mike -:- HEY JIM, Guess what? -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 17:35:12 (EST)
______Jim -:- Wrong again, Mike -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 22:17:38 (EST)
________Mike -:- Ok, try this on.... -:- Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 09:53:21 (EST)
__________Jim -:- Ok, try this on.... -:- Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 11:28:04 (EST)
__Jim -:- I like YOUR review, Chris -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 13:14:18 (EST)
____CD -:- I like YOUR review, Chris -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 14:56:47 (EST)
__TD -:- Daya and her singing career -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 03:48:54 (EST)

marge -:- dec 13 video feed -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 19:06:56 (EST)
__Katie -:- dec 13 video feed -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 19:30:39 (EST)
____marge -:- dec 13 video feed -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 19:36:56 (EST)
______peter -:- dec 13 video feed -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 20:57:26 (EST)
________w -:- dec 13 video feed -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 01:29:17 (EST)
__________Jim -:- dec 13 video feed -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 09:49:52 (EST)
____________w -:- dec 13 video feed -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 23:38:52 (EST)
______Sir David -:- dec 13 video feed -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 23:48:03 (EST)
________Katie -:- oops, you're right! -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 10:58:27 (EST)
__dv -:- dec 13 video feed -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 20:15:43 (EST)

Jim -:- Letter to ELK contributors (1) -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 16:38:13 (EST)
__Jim -:- Letter to ELK contributors (2) -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 16:39:08 (EST)
____Nimrod -:- Letter to ELK contributors (2) -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 00:30:42 (EST)
__Brian -:- Lemme guess... -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 21:45:15 (EST)
____Jim -:- Lemme guess... -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 22:15:04 (EST)

Jim -:- Andy Perl rallies the forces -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 16:13:03 (EST)
__Mike -:- Andy Perl rallies the forces -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 16:21:24 (EST)
__JW -:- Andy Perl -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 17:41:23 (EST)
____Saul -:- Andy Perl -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 19:42:18 (EST)
______Zac -:- Andy Perl -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 21:43:06 (EST)
________Jim -:- close -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 22:18:22 (EST)
__________Zac -:- Your right Jim. -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 07:00:41 (EST)
____________Mike -:- Never forget, Zac -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 17:19:09 (EST)
__________Mike -:- Sage advice, Jim (nt) -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 17:12:02 (EST)
____KK -:- Perl and Plain -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 23:36:52 (EST)
______dv -:- Perl and Plain -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 07:16:02 (EST)
____Barney -:- Can't move on with my life! -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 02:34:50 (EST)
______shp -:- perl harbor day??? -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 08:21:08 (EST)
________Jim -:- perl harbor day??? -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 09:45:17 (EST)
__________shp -:- perl harbor day??? -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 09:57:00 (EST)
________Barney -:- the carnage and wreckage -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 12:30:40 (EST)
__________shp -:- the carnage and wreckage -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 13:02:33 (EST)
______RT -:- My New Flavor for Clinton Era -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 17:52:17 (EST)
__Katie -:- Andy Perl rallies the forces -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 13:53:32 (EST)
____Brian -:- Andy Perl rallies the forces -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 23:16:27 (EST)
______Mike -:- Andy Perl rallies the forces -:- Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 16:17:56 (EST)
________KK -:- What is DETTMERS INDUSTRIES? -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 03:18:12 (EST)
__________Jim -:- What is DETTMERS INDUSTRIES? -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 09:45:50 (EST)
____________JW -:- What is DETTMERS INDUSTRIES? -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 10:46:32 (EST)
______________Mike -:- What is DETTMERS INDUSTRIES? -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 10:54:10 (EST)
______________Jim -:- What is DETTMERS INDUSTRIES? -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 18:02:56 (EST)
______________dv -:- What is DETTMERS INDUSTRIES? -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 22:20:03 (EST)
________________JW -:- What is DETTMERS INDUSTRIES? -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 23:39:22 (EST)
__________________DV -:- What is DETTMERS INDUSTRIES? -:- Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 22:13:26 (EST)
__________dv -:- What is DETTMERS INDUSTRIES? -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 21:41:24 (EST)
________JW -:- Excellent Point, Mike -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 10:40:02 (EST)

nigel -:- conviction management -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 12:28:40 (EST)
__nigel -:- conviction management (cont.) -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 12:30:29 (EST)
____srb -:- conviction management (cont.) -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 12:48:16 (EST)
____Jerry -:- conviction management (cont.) -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 17:10:09 (EST)
______Gerry -:- leave no room for doubt... -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 20:24:06 (EST)
__Scott T. -:- conviction management -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 15:39:38 (EST)
____Mike -:- Vultures -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 17:22:41 (EST)
______Scott T. -:- Vultures -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 17:36:49 (EST)
________Mike -:- LOL LOL LOL (nt) -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 17:59:32 (EST)
________Jerry -:- Vultures -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 18:54:20 (EST)
______Scott T. -:- Vultures -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 18:11:35 (EST)
________Mike -:- Any way at all -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 19:01:51 (EST)
______Saul -:- Vultures -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 01:11:43 (EST)
__Mike -:- To Nigel -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 19:05:24 (EST)
____nigel -:- Don't worry, Mike... -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 19:19:06 (EST)
__Nigel -:- Consider this, premies... -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 19:28:19 (EST)
____Scott T. -:- Consider this, premies... -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 19:46:57 (EST)
______Helen -:- Consider this, premies... -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 22:25:20 (EST)
________Scott T. -:- A constellation of perfectness -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 01:40:34 (EST)
__________Helen -:- g-g-g-gurus are grrreat! -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 07:44:46 (EST)
__________dv -:- A constellation of perfectness -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 20:13:09 (EST)
____________Mike -:- Hey, DV... -:- Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 15:27:10 (EST)
______shp -:- Consider this, premies... -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 08:15:54 (EST)
________Scott T. -:- The Paradox of Liberalism -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 10:29:07 (EST)
__________shp -:- visions and dreams -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 10:56:23 (EST)
____________Scott T. -:- visions and dreams -:- Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 14:03:28 (EST)
______________shp -:- visions and dreams -:- Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 14:29:06 (EST)
________________Scott T. -:- visions and dreams -:- Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 15:02:13 (EST)
__________________Mike -:- visions and dreams -:- Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 15:47:59 (EST)
____________________Scott T. -:- visions and dreams -:- Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 16:50:39 (EST)
______________________Mike -:- visions and dreams -:- Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 17:29:39 (EST)
____Jim -:- Excellent -- Brian? Katie? -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 20:56:45 (EST)
______Brian -:- Excellent -- Brian? Katie? -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 13:43:34 (EST)
____Helen -:- Consider this, premies... -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 22:21:41 (EST)
______John Hammond-Smyth -:- Consider this, premies... -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 01:22:56 (EST)
________Helen -:- Tinkie WInkie father -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 07:48:30 (EST)
__________John Hammond-Smyth -:- Tinkie WInkie father -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 12:29:33 (EST)
____________Helen -:- Animals incarnated -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 23:20:28 (EST)
______________John Hammond-Smyth -:- Animals incarnated & myths -:- Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 00:41:40 (EST)
________________Helen -:- Animals incarnated & myths -:- Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 20:57:10 (EST)
__________________John Hammond-Smyth -:- But the truth can be stranger -:- Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 23:14:23 (EST)
____________________Helen -:- But the truth can be stranger -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 08:57:35 (EST)
______________Mike -:- Animals incarnated -:- Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 16:03:19 (EST)
________________Helen -:- Smiley doggies, purr-fect cats -:- Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 21:01:46 (EST)
____Saul -:- Consider this, premies... -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 01:40:39 (EST)
______Helen -:- SPiritual teachers -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 07:54:59 (EST)
______Jim -:- Depends what u mean by 'fake' -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 10:33:01 (EST)
________Saul -:- Depends what u mean by 'fake' -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 22:25:52 (EST)
__________nigel -:- Depends what u mean by 'fake' -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 22:36:21 (EST)
____________Saul -:- Depends what u mean by 'fake' -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 22:54:00 (EST)
____________Saul -:- Depends what u mean by 'fake' -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 23:07:39 (EST)
__________Saul -:- Depends what u mean by 'fake' -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 22:42:28 (EST)
____________Jim -:- Depends what u mean by 'fake' -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 22:47:13 (EST)
______________Saul -:- Depends what u mean by 'fake' -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 22:59:14 (EST)
________________Jim -:- Depends what u mean by 'fake' -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 23:05:51 (EST)
__________________Saul -:- Depends what u mean by 'fake' -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 23:20:19 (EST)
____________________Jim -:- Depends what u mean by 'fake' -:- Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 21:01:40 (EST)
______________________Saul -:- Depends what u mean by 'fake' -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 11:15:59 (EST)
________________________Jim -:- I'm not with you, Saul -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 17:56:51 (EST)
____shp -:- Consider this, premies... -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 02:23:31 (EST)
______Saul -:- Consider this, premies... -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 02:33:55 (EST)
________shp -:- question -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 02:41:47 (EST)
__________Saul -:- question -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 22:29:05 (EST)
____________shp -:- question -:- Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 04:00:20 (EST)
______shp -:- Consider this, premies... -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 02:40:00 (EST)
________Jim -:- Here's another, shp -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 10:07:21 (EST)
__________shp -:- ah, glasshopper! -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 10:28:32 (EST)
____________Jim -:- ah, glasshopper! -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 10:35:34 (EST)
______________shp -:- pluck the lesson from my post -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 10:59:42 (EST)
__________Jerry -:- Here's another, shp -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 11:22:03 (EST)
____________shp -:- Here's another, shp -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 13:05:48 (EST)
______Mike -:- Consider this, premies... -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 09:56:24 (EST)
________shp -:- Consider this, premies... -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 10:18:38 (EST)
__________Jim -:- I won't read that, shp -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 10:26:52 (EST)
__________shp -:- same rave, lower case -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 10:46:58 (EST)
____________Katie -:- Mars and Venus (ot) -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 11:17:10 (EST)
______________Jim -:- That book sucks -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 11:24:21 (EST)
________________Katie -:- That book sucks -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 12:04:10 (EST)
__________________Scott T. -:- John Gray - The Lesser -:- Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 14:35:10 (EST)
________________shp -:- you didn't like the book. jim -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 13:13:07 (EST)
______________shp -:- Mars and Venus (ot) -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 13:08:26 (EST)
______________Nimrod -:- Mars and Venus (ot) -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 20:30:18 (EST)
________________Katie -:- My sentiments exactly! (nt) -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 20:59:26 (EST)
______________Scott T. -:- John Gray is worth reading -:- Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 14:16:08 (EST)
____________Jim -:- Don't celebrate ignorance -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 12:58:59 (EST)
__________Jerry -:- Consider this, premies... -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 11:47:05 (EST)
__________Mike -:- But it is.... -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 11:49:45 (EST)
____________shp -:- real-eyes-a-shun -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 13:41:15 (EST)
______________jim -:- real-eyes-a-shun -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 13:48:34 (EST)
________nigel -:- Ah yes, Mike, but... -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 20:49:06 (EST)
__________Mike -:- Ah yes, Mike, but... -:- Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 10:03:30 (EST)
______nigel -:- You're being evasive, shp -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 15:12:26 (EST)
________shp -:- no evasiveness here -:- Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 04:22:05 (EST)
__________Mike -:- no evasiveness here -:- Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 10:24:48 (EST)
____________shp -:- no evasiveness here -:- Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 12:15:47 (EST)
______________Katie -:- m vs. education -:- Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 12:58:02 (EST)
________________Katie -:- P.S. -:- Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 13:08:56 (EST)
______________Mike -:- no evasiveness here -:- Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 13:12:34 (EST)
______________Katie -:- Ashrams - ask JW! (nt) -:- Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 13:33:06 (EST)
________________Mike -:- JW would be my choice -:- Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 13:39:42 (EST)
__________________Katie -:- JW would be my choice -:- Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 13:44:25 (EST)
______________Jerry -:- no evasiveness here -:- Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 13:49:54 (EST)
________________shp -:- no evasiveness here -:- Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 14:04:32 (EST)
__________________Jerry -:- no evasiveness here -:- Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 16:20:03 (EST)
____________________shp -:- no evasiveness here -:- Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 19:39:28 (EST)
______________________Jerry -:- no evasiveness here -:- Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 21:59:38 (EST)
________________________shp -:- no evasiveness here -:- Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 23:00:37 (EST)
__________________________Jim -:- classic evasion -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 10:02:41 (EST)
____________________________shp -:- you're gonna love this one... -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 14:01:46 (EST)
__________________________Mike -:- no evasiveness here -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 10:30:19 (EST)
____________________________shp -:- read 'you're gonna love...' -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 14:21:46 (EST)
______________________________Mike -:- I read it and... -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 14:37:07 (EST)
________________________________Helen -:- shp: read this -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 21:03:59 (EST)
__________________________________Mike -:- Before the thread scrolls -:- Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 12:10:54 (EST)
____________________________________Helen -:- Before the thread scrolls -:- Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 14:07:47 (EST)
______________________________________Jerry -:- Before the thread scrolls -:- Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 17:20:26 (EST)
________________________________________Helen -:- Eva Cassidy: To Jerry -:- Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 19:17:33 (EST)


Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 01:36:56 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Premie music now available
Message:
Over on the censored 'uncensored premie page' CD has put up some links to music clips from new albums by premies. I checked out some of the samples. We're not talking Rage Against the Machine, you know. Just nice, new age dental office music.

Now how can I relax when I know the dentist wants to lull me to sleep and fleece my pockets?
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 11:45:38 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Add your review on Amazon.com
Message:
I did.

Here's what I wrote:

This is nothing but a fundraiser for cult leader, Maharaji!!

What you've got here is a compilation of songs by followers of cult leader, Maharaji, the 'Lord of the Universe'. The cliched, new-age sound is a 'cult favorite' as it supports the guru's incessant incantations to his followers to love him more and more. Literally mind-numbing fare. Sometimes, they even line up to kiss his feet listening to this stuff. I know, unfortunately. I was there. If you buy it, you should know that all proceeds go to the guru. What's next? The Reverand Moon Christmas record? 'Fly me to the Moon' by the Heaven's Gate choir (posthumous, of course)?
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 12:30:11 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Add your review on Amazon.com
Message:
Jim,

1. You haven't even listened to the music CDs yet.
2. You are painting yourself into a corner
3. As far as being a musician, you have no class

I am sorry to have to say that I predicted your action before I put up the links to the music. The music will be judged on its own merit by those who really care. I feel a bit sorry for you that you have stooped so low. I actaully did give you some small chance in my mind for more positive behaviour. Thats what I get for giving people the benefit of the doubt. I will continue to be optimistic nevertheless.

My girlfriend happens to like the Reflections CD very very much. She sent a copy to her parents in her Christmas gift collection package and was very happy about it.

Regards,
Chris Dickey
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 12:44:40 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: I'm sorry
Message:
Jim,
1. You haven't even listened to the music CDs yet.


I listened to the clips. Tell me I don't know what these albums sound like. Go ahead, tell me.

2. You are painting yourself into a corner

You mean they're almost certain to not include MY darshan music on the next CD? God, I hadn't thought of that.

3. As far as being a musician, you have no class

Ouch!

I am sorry to have to say that I predicted your action before I put up the links to the music. The music will be judged on its own merit by those who really care.

Now who in the world would 'really care' except a bunch of cult members? And these are people who aren't supposed to judge anything anyway, right? I mean what are they going to say? 'I think the so-and-so number builds a little too quickly for the slow love bubble I was trying to blow'? 'I wish they put in more flute there so I could visualize Maharaji as Krishna better'? 'This ain't Yanni. I want my money back'? 'The last song was pretty good except I started thinking again towards the end'?

I feel a bit sorry for you that you have stooped so low. I actaully did give you some small chance in my mind for more positive behaviour. Thats what I get for giving people the benefit of the doubt. I will continue to be optimistic nevertheless.

Well you're the stubborn one, aren't you? Maintaining your optimism in the face of such ugly experience! Chris, let's talk about 'positive behaviour' shall we? You took over the 'uncensored premie forum' from David and immediately started censoring posts. No? And all along I thought you were a champion for the free flow of information and fearless, frank discussion of issues! I am SO hurt, Chris.

My girlfriend happens to like the Reflections CD very very much. She sent a copy to her parents in her Christmas gift collection package and was very happy about it.

Your girlfriend sounds brain dead.
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 12:46:39 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: CD, are you aware
Message:
CD: That one of the songs on the Reflections CD (I have several, so I 'think' this is the one) has an all instrumental version of 'leaving your lotus feet' on it? Why were the words removed? Is it an embarrasment? If the music is just that, music, why should it need changing to make it more palatable? I'm just asking a simple question here.
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 13:15:49 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: CD, are you aware
Message:
Which song on the Reflections CD would that be?

CD
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 13:55:54 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: CD, are you aware
Message:
CD: I don't have the cd here with me. When I go home tonite, I'll look it up for you and let you know (I want to be accurate). If it's on a different cd, I'll let you know that, too.
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 14:45:31 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: I was mistaken
Message:
CD: After looking at the album cover art, I realized that I was in error. The cd that I was referring to was/is called: Drifting.

Sorry, my bust on where the song was located. However, it is on that album (without the words). My original question still stands, though. I noted that a few songs had their lyrics modified to remove 'divine' connotations and/or the lyrics were removed altogether. What gives?
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 17:35:12 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: HEY JIM, Guess what?
Message:
Jim: Censorship has hit once again.... Amazon apparently deleted your comments. I wonder who pointed them out? OR, better yet, I wonder who OWNS Amazon?
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 22:17:38 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Wrong again, Mike
Message:
Mike,

My 'review' was never posted in the first place. I submitted it this morning and they say it can take a few days before its actually posted. Hey, why don't you send one?
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 09:53:21 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Ok, try this on....
Message:
Jim: I think I will send one. I noticed, for example that the tune called, 'Rememberances' was of a slightly 'eastern' bent (like 90 degrees bent). Gee, I wonder what on earth he could be remembering.... he he he. Not bad, but not really inspired either. Although sound bites can be deceiving, I found them to possess a 'formula' sound. I was able to anticipate what was coming next, in each case. Unlike David Arkenstone and others, I didn't see (hear) any real innovation. In other words, if you want the typical 'new age' sound experience, without hearing anything new, then these are for you.

How'd I do, Jim?
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 11:28:04 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Ok, try this on....
Message:
Great! I wodner if these premies who wax and swoon over their premie musicians' pablum would pick it out in a new age music double-blind test.
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 13:14:18 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I like YOUR review, Chris
Message:
By the way, Chris, I liked YOUR comments on the CD (which can be found at:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000603W/chrisdickeymicro/002-9116201-4499411)

You called it 'deceptively simple'. Hmmm. Maybe you meant 'simply deceptive'?
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 14:56:47 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I like YOUR review, Chris
Message:
>By the way, Chris, I liked YOUR comments on the CD

The review of the music CD was written by my girlfriend.
She happens to love the music.

Regards,
CD
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 03:48:54 (EST)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Muzak Lovers
Subject: Daya and her singing career
Message:
Sort of related subject. I remember after seeing Daya a couple of times singing at events and thinking what a beautiful voice she had - I asked a few premies I knew if she did gigs other than for Maharaji. They told me that she had said that she would only ever sing for her old man, ie she would never sing commercially. Pity, but maybe doing the EV rounds is satisfying enough....
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 19:06:56 (EST)
From: marge
Email: margef@cstone.net
To: Everyone
Subject: dec 13 video feed
Message:
does anyone know how to access this feed if we have a dish and all the necessary equipment? it has to be up there somewhere.
thanks for the info if you have it.
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 19:30:39 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: marge
Subject: dec 13 video feed
Message:
dear Marge - I would check at www.enjoyinglife.com (there are some phone numbers there) or ask someone on the premie forum. Here is the link:

premie forum
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 19:36:56 (EST)
From: marge
Email: margef@cstone.net
To: Katie
Subject: dec 13 video feed
Message:
thanks for your help. i have checked on elk but they list only the venues and not the info on how to find the feed. premie forum doesn't seem to help either. i am still looking if anyone can offer assistance. thanks, marge
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 20:57:26 (EST)
From: peter
Email: None
To: marge
Subject: dec 13 video feed
Message:
Somehow I don't think that they're just going to let you watch it at your house. Especially not for free.
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 01:29:17 (EST)
From: w
Email: na
To: peter
Subject: dec 13 video feed
Message:
Somehow I don't think that they're just going to let you watch it at your house. Especially not for free.

I think your right.
Imagine your one of the best, or the best, orator or avatar on the subject of Love/truth/KNOWLEDGE/goodness/and so on……., well why would you not let the world tune in and turn on? Heck for that matter it could also be Internet Web Casted live, but it is NOT.

Maybe it is not about Love Truth KNOWLEDGE Goodness and so on……………… Maybe money or something else…… then again maybe it is something we the creatures/humans are not supposed to think about. Hahaha --------------------
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 09:49:52 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: w
Subject: dec 13 video feed
Message:
Imagine your one of the best, or the best, orator or avatar on the subject of Love/truth/KNOWLEDGE/goodness/and so on……

Sorry w,

I think you've got the wrong cult leader. The one we're talking about is a meandering, puffball without substance and an extremely tiresome style. He's like a big cheesie, stale air covered by overly sweetened greasy, fat and fake colouring. Maybe you're thinking of the great Guru Maharaj Ji, Maharaji's brother. Now there is a leader for these troubled times!
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 23:38:52 (EST)
From: w
Email: na
To: Jim
Subject: dec 13 video feed
Message:
Hahaha --- I hear you, but like for sure, haha, you have taken me out of context, my entire message, is, {MY} message. A snip-it of my message does not convey what I said or meant, at least not in this instance. All in all though, you going for the humor is humorous……......hahahahaha.
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 23:48:03 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: marge
Subject: dec 13 video feed
Message:
The link which Katie gave you was for another forum and not the premie forum, by the way.

What's the big deal about Maharaji talking on the 13th? He's not going to say anything new. But perhaps I'm biased. You see, since he conned me into believing he was the Lord, you know, GOD and my subsequent realisation that I'd been conned by a scheming Indian charlatan; I wouldn't even give him the time of day, let alone bother to listen to his rantings. He can go to hell, for all I care.
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 10:58:27 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: oops, you're right!
Message:
I had a hard time MAKING the link (those URLs are LONG), so didn't check it. It's now fixed in the original post, plus here is another link (hope this one works too!):

premie forum
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 20:15:43 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: marge
Subject: dec 13 video feed
Message:
Your receiver needs to be authorized for the feed to be able to descramble it. In some descramling protocols, the audio still comes though intact.
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 16:38:13 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Letter to ELK contributors (1)
Message:
Shit! I just typed this whole thing in here, it was too long, and got eaten when I hit the 'back' button to break it apart. That sucks!

Anyway, I just sent a letter to Jane Aley, a new contributor on the ELK page ('Jane' perhaps?). I sent another one to Lance Tane a few days ago. (He spent a fiar bit of time on the newsgroup and in meail trying to rationally defend Maharaji. In the end, he gave up. Couldn't do it.)

So, here's the letter I just sent. I plan to modify it a bit as it goes. Open to suggestions.:


My name's Jim Heller and I'm an ex-premie, active, as you might know, on the
ex-premie web site ( http://www.ex-premie.org/forum3/forum3.cgi ). I
noticed your email address on your submission to the Enjoying Life with
Knowledge web site and thought I'd drop you a note. I want to tell you
about a little hoax we pulled on the good folks there. You might find it
amusing, you might find it disturbing. You should, at least, agree that
it's information worth having.

It's quite obvious that the 'Lives' entries are heavily edited there. What
we wondered, though, was whether the premie newspeak was only self-generated
or if, instead, the editors were simply censoring these testimonials. You
know, everyone talking about hearing about this young boy with 'something
special to show people about enjoying life'. What happened to the 14
year-old 'Lord of the Universe' who offered to show one the 'face of God
inside' and who PROMISED to begin 'peace to the world' in short order? No
one, not even Charanand or any of the other oldtimers spoke about THAT kind
of stuff.

So, like I say, a few of us submitted some fake life stories there just to
test the censor's knife. Here are two samples. The first was written by an
English guy named Nigel (who thought this whole scheme up, to his good
credit). The second by me. The block lettered text is what they messed
around with:

____________________________________________________________________________
____

1) 'Hello there, how are you all doing?

My name is Andrew (Andy) O'Dwyer. I was born 45 years ago in county Sligo
to a family of itinerant travellers. I never knew my mother and father but
was raised instead by My Uncle John and Aunt Miriam. Uncle John was a
tinker in the traditional sense and we spent all my growing years travelling
around Ireland. I'd like to say we lived in a horse-drawn caravan too, but
reality is never as romantic as people think!. Instead we had a big black
converted bus that once saw service on the streets of Cork city back in the
thirties. Uncle John must have been quite a mechanic on the side, because
between us we kept that thing running for something like seventeen years.

I realise now we must have been very poor, but it never seemed like that at
the time as there was always food on the table, and John and Miriam always
made me feel like the luckiest boy alive. I didn't get much of a schooling
since we were always on the move, but Aunt Miriam gave me a great love of
literature and poetry and there was never a time my head wasn't stuck firmly
between the pages of some book or other. My favourite times were the summer
fairs in County Wicklow where Uncle John always managed to find work and
aunt Miriam (who was never a Romany) used to take out her headscarf and
large gold earrings and tell fortunes to the fair-goers from a little tent
as 'Madame Mystra'. She knew nothing about tarot or palmistry, but used to
just make people's futures up as she went along. The punters often came
back the next year to say how accurate the predictions had been! We used to
find this hysterically funny. 'There's one born every minute' Uncle John
would always say. So I guess you could say I was pretty much a sceptic in
those days. But I loved nature and the wild mountains, and there was always
this feeling in me that there must be some deep mystery going on in nature
that was also right there within myself, if I could just put my finger on
it.

Anyway, all good things come to an end, and when I was seventeen Aunt Miriam
died. Uncle John almost went to pieces, but managed to stay off the drink
and keep himself together, thank God. Unfortunately around that time he
started keeping some undesirable company and was soon involved in carrying
occasional ‘parcels’ across the border into the north. He always refused to
talk to me about this. Uncle John was a good man and I'm sure he only got
involved in all that business because he was very hard up and it paid well.
But I told myself I'm not wanting any of that caper and took off for London
as soon as I was eighteen. [AS I SAW IT, UNCLE’S FORM OF IDEALISM HAD
BROUGHT NOTHING BUT SORROW TO OUR LAND FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS WHILE I
SINCERELY FELT THERE MUST BE SOME OTHER WAY OF ESTABLISHING PEACE, BOTH IN
IRELAND AND ACROSS THE WORLD. ]

It was the early seventies and I was working on building site in Belsize
park. One day a hippie-looking girl was walking past and I wolf-whistled
her (she was quite a looker!). Instead of carrying on past, she turned and
came over to speak to me. ‘She’s all yours, Andy’ was my immediate thought,
but instead she started telling me about this Indian kid, [GURU MAHARAJ JI,
WHO WAS GOING TO BRING PEACE TO THE WHOLE WORLD. NOT ONLY THAT BUT GURU
MAHARAJ JI, THE LIVING PERFECT MASTER], could show me a perfect gift inside
myself. Sceptic that I was, I was having none of it, but because I really
fancied this Sarah chick I went along with her one eveing [TO THE ‘PALACE OF
PEACE’ WHICH WAS ONLY A COUPLE OF STREETS AWAY FROM WHERE I WAS WORKING]. I
listened to [MAHATMA GURU] Charanand give ‘satsang’, and all at once I felt
something happening in me, the like of which I had never known before.
Within a week I had received Knowledge (either I was lucky or they seemed to
be just giving it away to all-comers at that time). [I EVEN ‘SURRENDERED
THE REINS OF MY LIFE’ TO GURU MAHARAJ JI WHO I RECOGNISED AS TRULY THE
SUPERIOR POWER IN PERSON.]

[I REMEMBER CHARANAND SAYING AS HE SHOWED US THE NECTAR TECHNIQUE THAT I
WOULD NEVER HAVE TO DRINK AGAIN - NOT EVEN WATER! - CAN YOU IMAGINE?
UNFORTUNATELY I WAS STILL RATHER FOND OF THE ALE (NOT THE BLACK STUFF - I’M
NOT YOUR COMPLETE PADDY STEREOTYPE, YOU KNOW!), SO NOT DRINKING WASN’T
REALLY ON THE CARDS. I REALISE NOW], I was not really ready for Maharji Ji
s [PRICELESS] gift [OF KNOWLEDGE], since I moved into an ashram and was
thrown out again a few weeks later! The trouble was my new friend Sarah and
I were becoming altogether too fond of one another, and what with she having
moved into the same ashram, we ended up breaking our celibacy vows on a
pretty routine basis, and every time I got drunk I would carry chicken legs
or kebabs back to the ashram. Jeez! - can you imagine? We were supposed to
be teetotal and strictly vegetarian. Ah, but I remember those days with a
great fondness, still.

Having split up with Sarah, I wandered off for a while, returning to Ireland
and living the travelling life again. I thought I might just keep the
Knowledge for myself, practice on my own in rural tranquility. But after
meeting my wife Kathy, I settled down for many years and we ran a small
poultry farm in Wicklow. Unforunately I lost contact with the other
premies, and I found it impossible to practice without that daily [CONSTANT]
focus [AND SURRENDER TO SATSANG, SERVICE AND MEDITATION]. Many years
followed, with many ups and downs along the way. I tried to meditate when I
could and I always knew over the years that I was still carrying [MY
PRECIOUS GURU MAHARAJ JI] in my heart.

When my marriage broke up a couple of years back, I moved back over to
England again, and now live in Chester, UK, where I work in insurance. [I
FOUND THIS INTERNET SITE THANKS TO A WORK COLLEAGUE TELLING ME ABOUT THE
‘EX-PREMIE.ORG’ SITE. I LOOKED THERE FIRST AND COULDN’T BELIEVE THE GOSSIP
AND LIES I WAS READING. BUT, BY HIS GRACE, SOMEONE POSTED A LINK TO THIS
SITE WHICH IS HOW] I found your beacon of peace and hope in a turbulent
cyberworld.

Take care, and keep up the good work, all of you.
Andy'

__________________________________________________________________
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 16:39:08 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Letter to ELK contributors (2)
Message:
2) 'Hi. My name's David Goldberg and I live in Los Angeles. I've had
Knowledge for twenty-five years but never realized it has been so long until
I started reading some of the others here. Twenty-five years! Twenty-five
years of knowing that the breath in me is a gift of love and not just some
cold, scientific phenomenon. My work in the clothing industry takes me all
over the world. I've been to every continent besides Antarctica and have
met and worked with people from many, many different cultures. I've spent
extensive periods in various places, developing new pieces and seeting up
their production. In so doing, I've gotten to really appreciate the
strengths and weaknesses of different cultures and their spiritual
traditions. One thing is clear, though. People without Knowledge are
thirsty for the heart and that's the one thing no philosophy can deliver.

Working side by side with many of my foreign business associates long enough
to get past the normal cultural and language barriers, I have met some very
beautiful and devout followers of many religions. As we get to know each
other our defenses often drop and, invariably, there comes a time when I can
tell them a bit about Maharaji and practising. [THAT IS ALWAYS A SACRED
MOMENT, FILLED WITH GRACE became 'That is always a special moment'] It
still feels that way even after all these years. Something special happens
when my colleague asks me how I could
[WORSHIP MY MASTER became ' follow my master.'] the way I do. I've had
Hindu, Buddhist and Christian
friends all ask me [THE SAME QUESTION, 'YOU MAKE IT SOUND LIKE YOUR TEACHER
IS KRISHNA (OR BUDDHA OR JESUS) HIMSELF.' became ' this question.'] [THAT'S
WHEN I JUST SMILE AND FEEL THE GRACE. MAHARAJI TAUGHT US LONG AGO THERE'S
NO POINT ANSWERING THAT QUESTION. became 'I always reply'] 'By his fruits ye
shall know Him', right?

Last year I was involved in a project in Mexico. I spent three months
working with Carmen, a designer in Puerto Vallarta. Carmen and her husband,
Ricardo, are both practising Catholics and went to church at least once a
week. Once, after I'd been there a while, they invited me along. I went
out of politeness, curiosity and also, perhaps, a desire to get away from
all the time-share salespeople [AND FEEL SOME REVERENCE FOR THE CREATOR]. I
might have been better off sitting in my hotel room and practising in that
respect but I guess I didn't want to be rude either. After the service I
went back with Carmen and Ricardo to their picturesque villa (near where
they filmed 'The Night of the Iguana') and, over a gorgeous Mexican spread
of tortillas, guacamole and seafood, they asked me about my [RELIGION became
'religion'].
Carmen said that although I didn't go to church I seemed to have a sense of
calm about me. She commented on how patient I was givne the fact that our
project was frustrated by several serious delays. How did I do [IT IF I
DIDN'T HAVE GOD became 'it']?
Ricardo looked at me a little perplexed. I could see something inside of
him was just asking to be told. 'I've been shown a way to turn inside and
find constant peace there,' I said. 'That place is the heart [AND THAT IS
WHERE GOD DWELLS. I'VE BEEN SHOWN WHERE TO FIND HIM.]

[CARMEN AND RICARDO WERE SILENT FOR A MOMENT. THEN CARMEN ASKED, 'BUT HOW
CAN YOU SEE GOD IF HE HIMSELF DOESN'T SHOW YOU?'
AND THAT'S WHEN I JUST FELT THE BIGGEST SMILE OVERTAKE ME. WHAT COULD I
SAY? THE NEXT DAY I WENT BACK TO CARMEN'S VILLA BUT THIS TIME WITH A GIFT,
AN INTRODUCTORY VIDEO.]Since then, Carmen and Ricardo have gone to several
video events with me here when
they've visited in Los Angeles. They might not have received Knowledge yet
but they tell me they already know what I was smiling about.

[MAHARAJI'S GRACE became 'Maharaji'] has touched so many people. [I FEEL
THAT HE HAS MADE ME HIS GREATEST INSTRUMENT WHEN I CAN SIMPLY LET HIM TAKE
ME OVER AND LEAVE A SIMPLE COATCHECK OF A SMILE ON MY LIPS became ' and it
feels so wonderful to be involved in that process. [MAHARAJI, I'M ALL
YOURS. THANK YOU, LORD, FOR LETTING ME SERVE YOU became 'Thank you,
Maharaji.'

____________________________________________________________________________

Of course when presented with proof of this deceit, unsurprisingly, the ELK
folk refused to answer. I'm just curious, what do you think about this?
How fake do things have to be to maintain 'that love', huh?

Anyway, I'm here if you're interested in discussing this further.

Sincerely,

Jim Heller
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 00:30:42 (EST)
From: Nimrod
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Letter to ELK contributors (2)
Message:
You ask 'How fake do things have to be to mantain 'that luv ' huh ? '
But you know that 'that luv ' is really no love-its manipulation.
Therefor, there can never be enough fakery.But you know that. I just had to answer anyways,because those letters were an absolute treat. Most entertaining!!! Thanks.
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 21:45:15 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Jim
Subject: Lemme guess...
Message:
...your browser wouldn't allow you to type the words I sent them copies of two?
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 22:15:04 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Lemme guess...
Message:
...your browser wouldn't allow you to type the words I sent them copies of two?

As a matter of fact, it wouldn't. That's what I initially tried. Of course it is. But this fucking browser... always with the details. Details, details, details! Now I know why you hate Microsoft so much. Believe me.

Was it this way when you were young, too, Brian?
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 16:13:03 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: heller@bc1.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Andy Perl rallies the forces
Message:
Anyone remember Andy Perl? Deep-voiced, droll DLM/EV co-ordinator in the late 70s, kind of smooth. I always thought he was pretty sharp. I'd heard he bought some land in Florida but it never occurred to me that he could still be following the Perfect Hamster. Well, surprise, surprise. Below is his (unsolicited?) sales pitch from the ELK 'Expressions' page:

'Andrew Perl
Stuart, Florida, USA

Sharing the experience

People tell wonderful stories about the impact of Knowledge in their lives. Two things are very vivid in my memory of the days around my Knowledge session. The first is my recollection of my good friend Robbie telling me about Knowledge for the first time, the words he used, the timing of his phrases, his responses to my comments. The second is the incredible cascade of realizations that flooded my consciousness as I walked home from the Knowledge session. I went on to tell countless numbers of people about Knowledge.

Today, we hear that few people in North America are receiving Knowledge. Few of us must be saying anything about it to friends and acquaintances. I know I have tried, only to see people put-off by the strange and muddled concepts about Maharaji and his role that people with Knowledge keep generating. The people I know are generally successful and clear-headed. They also are curious and something inside them continues to search. Somehow the clubby atmosphere that prevails when we gather needs to be cleared away. Then more of us will trust the process and risk telling others about Knowledge.

Considering Maharaji's time and effort, the introductory videos, and the expense of his travels around the world, it is a serious concern that North America is somehow stuck. For one thing, financial resources need to grow, and membership growth is essential for financial growth. Will there be sufficient funds generated from selling new trinkets, bathrobes, T-shirts, and other collectibles to a core group? Is it productive for membership growth to have the publications tables, and the frenzy they generate, the main focus at an introductory event like the last one in Miami?

Maharaji is the focus. More so than ever before, he is running the whole process from video and live introductions, to the Knowledge session, to the follow-up programs. What a different set of circumstances from years ago. Thank you Maharaji.

Sharing is essential. I hope that a positive and clear message can be developed that enables new people to approach and experience Maharaji's introduction in a clean way. Maharaji's public identity does need some definition. People naturally want to know 'who he is', and in the current situation, words like 'master, perfect master', etc. are blurted out awkwardly, with implied meaning, and unspoken mystery. Perhaps something simple would work to resolve this issue:

Maharaji is:

A: A teacher - to those wanting to receive Knowledge

B: A guide - to those who have received Knowledge

C: And more - since a relationship of gratitude and appreciation develops over time. This relationship is personal and private, between each person and Maharaji.

Maharaji is a teacher, a guide, and more.

In any case, a clear atmosphere and presentation is needed that welcomes new people. This experience has been given to us to share with others. Growth will be the result if we can come out of our 'club'.'

Andy, if you're reading this, I'd like to tell you that you're fighting a losing battle. You're damned right Maharaji's 'public identity needs some definition'. But before you proceed trying to create something, why not simply accept the one he's already got? Maharaji's explained this all more than enough. He's the 'Perfect Master', the one-and-only teacher of 'perfection', right? He's the 'Supreme Lord in human form', remember? Now what's so tricky about that? Oh, it makes recruitment a little tricky? Is that the problem?

Ha ha ha ha ha ha....

Listen, if you really want to do some aggresive marketing, amybe you should consider dropping Rawat altogether. Face it, the guy's got some hefty baggage. What you need is a fresh face, someone with no ties whatsoever to this little cult that can't quite show its face in public anymore. Andy, I know you're really itching to build up an empire again, just like the one you used to enjoy some status in years ago. No point checking out Amway or Herbalife. You'd have to work your way from the bottom all over again.

No, I say get yourself a new 'teacher, guide or more', find a name, get a logo, print some stationery. Hell, if you want, I'll help. To tell you the truth I LOVED it when we had our little telex machines and letterhead and everything. I'm there, Andy. Fuck the guru. Together, we can do it!

Hey, Andy, call me sometime. I'd love to talk with you:

(250) 360-1040
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 16:21:24 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Andy Perl rallies the forces
Message:
Jim: I really like the 'and more' part. M isn't god, he's 'and more.' Quite an interesting spin. I also like the fact that finances are the first thing he talks about when speaking of new membership.

Ok, Andy, so tell me (no holds barred) which 'muddled concepts' about M were generated by premies and which were generated by M, himself?
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 17:41:23 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Andy Perl
Message:
Oh yes, I remember you, Andy Perl. Pure DLM bureaucrat, through and through and it sounds like you ares trying to resurrect that role, by instructing the premies on how they are supposed to act.

You're probably, right though, obviously if no one is interested in Maharaji and knowledge in North America, it MUST be because the premies are STILL using the wrong PR, the wrong sales technique, the wrong educational process for those unenlightened, unititiated, masses. That's all. Certainly there is nothing wrong with the product, oh, no. And if Maharaji is damaged goods because of his former 'I-am-god' past, well, that's not the problem, the problem is the premies' 'clubby nature.' [I know that's what turned ME off!] Am I dreaming, or is this the same conversation premies have been having since 1972?

I'll have to say, though, this whole type of analysis (off the mark as it is) is kind of interesting. I didn't think premies had these discussions anymore. Changing Maharaji's 'definition?' Sounds kind of like 1976, doesn't it? Better watch out, Andy, you may find yourself a renuciate again if Big M hears about this. Remember 'humanitarian leader?'

I know I have tried, only to see people put-off by the strange and muddled concepts about Maharaji and his role that people with Knowledge keep generating.

Right. Nothing 'muddled' about the way MAHARAJI describes his role, right? I mean he's perfectly clear about it. I think it's something like:

He was god until 1985, when he became a vague 'master' who may or may not be god, (it's unclear), who used to be able to show you god, until 1990, when he started showing people 'that place' which has something to do with the heart, in a metaphorical sense, of course, which is done through meditation techniques, which have all changed over the years, but not really. It used to be a 24-hour experience, and now it's an hour a day. Now, premies can deny he is god, but he still has people line up by the thousands to kiss his feet, not because of 'devotion', rather because they are just so darn grateful!

No, nothing muddled there! It's all in the presentation.

For one thing, financial resources need to grow, and membership growth is essential for financial growth.

Spoken like a true bureaucrat, Andy. The whole point of membership is cash flow. I think this is one 'understanding' Maharaji has taught you well.

Will there be sufficient funds generated from selling new trinkets, bathrobes, T-shirts, and other collectibles to a core group? Is it productive for membership growth to have the publications tables, and the frenzy they generate, the main focus at an introductory event like the last one in Miami?

Andy, honey, I think you're confused. Do you think, for even one second, that Maharaji isn't entirely behind the sale of trinkets? He's running the show, haven't you heard? Get with the program, Andy. In the very next paragraph you say Maharaji is running the introductory programs lately. You just have concepts and aren't surrendered to understand his divine plan. It's just around the corner, the big change. Didn't you hear that when he announced it in Japan?

Maharaji's public identity does need some definition. People naturally want to know 'who he is', and in the current situation, words like 'master, perfect master', etc. are blurted out awkwardly, with implied meaning, and unspoken mystery.

Blurted out by whom, Andy. Maharaji? He's the one who started using those terms, you know. Now, as for a new 'definition,' I thought they had a good idea in 1976 with that 'humanitarian leader' title. I mean, why not? But NOOOOOOO, he just wasn't into it after all. So now he's had half a dozen definitions since the 70s. Which 'definition' do you want to use?

Andy also, part of the problem with ending the 'club atmosphere' is that your cult is becomming progressively more paranoid. Haven't you noticed? You can't even give satsang anymore, can you Andy? Premies have to give canned speils to introduce videos and I am hearing about increased 'security' and paranoid reactions about even doing programs in North America. Enjoyinglife.org won't even let people freely express their personal experiences of knowledge if it doesn't meet current premie dogma, or if even the teensiest criticism of 'the master' is mentioned and they just censor material that doesn't meet current cult-think, without even getting permission. Less clubby? How about less like a militia group?
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 19:42:18 (EST)
From: Saul
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Andy Perl
Message:
Yeah, the true nature of this organization comes shining through in this message. Why are new people needed? In order to generate finances. And why are the finances needed anyway? The pretense used to be that it was expensive to bring a message to the world, but it isn't expensive anymore! Saul
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 21:43:06 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Saul
Subject: Andy Perl
Message:
I don't get the money hangups. The money is in your pocket. It doesn't move unless you reach in and hand it over. I've seen coordinators fry because the premies aren't giving enough but I think its funny.

I remember when the program donation seemed to escalate quickly from $15 bucks for a three day event to $35 (still not alot of money folks)down at the Miami conventon center. I started asking around and found out they were building a 3 bedroom house under the stage. 'What the hell are they doing that for?' I asked bluntly to various premie friends and mates hoping we'd all see the insanity and get rid of the bongos in charge. You guessed it blank stares and looks from all. 'Okay so if we all pretend that everything is fine maybe it will be.'

Maybe we should have separated ourselves from the pack early on, maybe alot of the influence came from the friendly, creative, hip,
neat people we met. I am fairly certain that everyone who received knowledge had misgivings about the cult atmosphere that was very apparent the first time you came in contact with the group, but you ignored those feeling because you felt something and wanted to know more. Thought you could handle it didn't you? I did.

Then I remember a premie coming up to me a few days after I received knowledge. He wrapped his arm around me and said I feel like you've been premie forever'. ie welcome to the group. No, no, no, but there I was and I quickly surrendered those feelings and became a premie.' Rambling on here but...

Maybe the 1st recommendation should have been

Never listen to a premie (or an ex), listen to your heart.
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 22:18:22 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: close
Message:
Maybe the 1st recommendation should have been

Never listen to a premie (or an ex), listen to your heart.


No, Zac, the first recommendation should have been:

'Think carefully. Ask the hardest questions you can and don't let anyone intimidate you into thinking that skepticism is a sign of weakness.'
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 07:00:41 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Your right Jim.
Message:
You're right Jim. Still new to the page. Thanks for the correcton.
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 17:19:09 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: Never forget, Zac
Message:
Zac: You are quite correct when you say that the money was in our pockets. The problem is that most (if not all) of us thought he was god-incarnate. We were brow-beaten and made to feel like the stuff you remove from the bottom of a shoe if we didn't 'give' to each and every whim that came down from above. I think this is the hardest part for 'others' to understand. If you are led to believe, want to believe or do believe (with all of your heart) that the Lord Of the Universe is standing before you, how can you refuse? Show me an ashram premie and I'll show you a person that didn't merely 'believe,' they KNEW that the lord-incarnate was present on this planet and they gave their ALL to his efforts. THIS is the part that you can't/shouldn't forget when you talk about the money-thing. Money is just the tip of the proverbial celestial/divine iceberg.
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 17:12:02 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Sage advice, Jim (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 23:36:52 (EST)
From: KK
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Perl and Plain
Message:
Well put, JW. The Andy Perl treatise was quintessential Perl.

Remember the breed of DLM 'hanchos' who cringed around the place mostly backstage, snubbing premies, climbing all over anyone to get to the top, anxiously monitoring their strategic relationships with other hanchos to ensure that their little empire/gravy train (ARRIVALS and DEPARTURES for the plane or THE KITCHEN or THE HOTEL) remained intact.

All of this behaviour had NOTHING to do with an internal spiritual experience and EVERYTHING to do with POWER, GREED, EGO and GETTING AHEAD while the rest of the 'dumb premies' who hadn't caught on, would keep beavering away like drone bees, keeping the show financially on the road.

I remember when many of them went down in a blaze of non-glory and it was invariably NOT because they realised the whole thing was a giant fraud but because their little empire had crumbled and they had nothing to do anymore. They have too much ego to find out the truth about MJ because it would make all of their years as petty powermongers indefensible.

Eat your heart out, Andy! Go build an empire at your own expense, instead of picking the eyes out of this one. For an ambitious person like you, I would have thought that you'd have realised what a house of cards it is anyway.
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 07:16:02 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: KK
Subject: Perl and Plain
Message:
Andy lives in Stuart, is/was(they sold the company to a California firm I believe) a partner in Dettmers Industries, a VERY sucessful offshoot of Deca, making seats for planes.
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 02:34:50 (EST)
From: Barney
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Can't move on with my life!
Message:
Anybody remember recently when a premie was scolding us about 'not being able to move on' or 'get over it'?

To reply, why the hell should we?

Man, this is such great, humorous entertainment! It is so damn funny! You guys are great! This is so much better than TV or whatever that guy wants us to move on to.

It's such a drama. And we do have sort of a personal stake in watching the situation because it affected us greatly for a significant part of our lives.

Thank god for all of the Ex-premies that take a poke at this thing and do it with good humor exposing the total BS that keeps oozing out of it and all of 'em.

Anybody for a serving of Doublespeak ice cream?

Keep it up!
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 08:21:08 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Barney
Subject: perl harbor day???
Message:
juxtaposition is not only a funny word, but sometimes a funny phenomenon. like the pearl harbor day posts hitting and then the andy perl posts hitting...hence, perl harbor day!

also, if you run the words postshitting together, you get a whole new view of the thing.

yeah, it is kinda of entertaining when nobody's getting hurt.
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 09:45:17 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: perl harbor day???
Message:
Not bad, shp, not bad. So long as you don't try to divine some sort of magic incantation from this amusing coincidence, I'm with you.
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 09:57:00 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: perl harbor day???
Message:
g'day, jim!

the question is: what is perl harboring?

my folks were married on dec 7 '41, so i am acutely aware of this date.

see ya 'round the site.
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 12:30:40 (EST)
From: Barney
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: the carnage and wreckage
Message:
yeah, it is kinda of entertaining when nobody's getting hurt.


So, shp what do you consider getting hurt? Before you read this, please don't take this personally or anything. I am grateful that you are coming around to present a different perspective.

Is getting hurt when you come to this site and post the premie company line and then have it heavily critiqued and maybe get called some names?

Or is getting hurt when get involved in the cult and give up years of your life, lots of your income, and when people like Andy Perl and BM keep telling you stuff that never really makes sense, but when they tell you this stuff they tell/sell it like it came off down the mountaintop engraved in stone.

Or is getting hurt when you lived in an ashram for 10 years giving your entire paycheck and they close down and put you out?

Or is getting hurt when you've worked at some premie slave shop like DECA and become ill from chemical exposure due to the ignorance and callous disregard of those running the operation?

Or is getting hurt when you are totally confused about life because you can no longer make sense of the bizarre message content that the cult keeps pounding into your head and you kill yourself?

There's a million stories in the naked city. There's all sorts of carnage on both sides of the road where the Perfect Hamster has passed by in his Benz.

Jim and JW have done an incredibly accurate and insightful job at analyzing and dissecting Andy Perl's post on the ELK site. It was totally perfect, it was ZEN, it was hysterically funny.

You've got to realize that when you are in the Cult you are cautioned not to use critical thinking and to accept the message (satsang) without resistance, to surrender.

Getting hurt is listening to the incoherent and inconsistent message of the cult.
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 13:02:33 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Barney
Subject: the carnage and wreckage
Message:
barney,

for me, getting hurt is feeling pain. getting hurt is feeling the pain that comes, not from attachment to someone or something that is moving on, but the pain that comes from unconsciousness words acts and deeds perpetrated on ya.

i don't have thin skin or i wouldn't be here still.

i understand what you are saying, but i need time to process it more completely. you may not see me as a friend, but i am certainly not your enemy either.
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 17:52:17 (EST)
From: RT
Email: I scream 4 Icecream
To: Ben N Gerry
Subject: My New Flavor for Clinton Era
Message:
Will Ben and Gerry's do it? Will we see...

PEACH MINT

:)

RT
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 13:53:32 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Andy Perl rallies the forces
Message:
I actually was really surprised that they'd print this entire message on enjoyinglife.org. For example:

Will there be sufficient funds generated from selling new trinkets, bathrobes, T-shirts, and other collectibles to a core group? Is it productive for membership growth to have the publications tables, and the frenzy they generate, the main focus at an introductory event like the last one in Miami?

I found this paragraph to be really strange, as presumably everything at the programs is sold by Visions International. Does Mr. Perl NOT want premies to buy this stuff, or is he suggesting that they do it in a more subtle manner. It would be really easy to eliminate the selling of these items if M wanted to do that. THAT would be the best way of not having 'frenzy' in front of sales tables.

He also wrote:
Somehow the clubby atmosphere that prevails when we gather needs to be cleared away.

This is similar to the reason that Mili gave in answer to why M shut down the original premie.org page: it was 'too much of a private club'.

The whole post reminded me very much of the kind of stuff we heard from community coordinators during the 1970's. They were usually repeating stuff that came down from on high, and I wonder if Mr. Perl isn't doing that as well.
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 23:16:27 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Katie
Subject: Andy Perl rallies the forces
Message:
I actually was really surprised that they'd print this entire message on enjoyinglife.org.

It's possible that the censor over there is personally acquainted with Andy, and perhaps a bit in awe of him. But his shot at the trinkets that Visions International is selling surprised me too. Not only that it wasn't censored, but that it was even being voiced.
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 16:17:56 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Andy Perl rallies the forces
Message:
Brian: In my experience, this is typical high-and-mighty-premie speak. Let me explain: If a larger-than-thou premie were to show up in your community to give satsang, they could almost always use ANY example they wanted to, as long as the example was used to belittle premies. In this case, it 'appears' that he is making fun of the trinkets... BUT, take another look... He isn't saying that the trinkets are bad, his implication is that those 'premies' hanging all over the table are B.A.D. They are centering on the trinkets instead of M. As I remember, this was a tool that was often used to make us feel guilty, self-conscious and contrite (e.g. mentally beat us into submission with guilt).
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 03:18:12 (EST)
From: KK
Email: None
To: Brian, Katie, JW et al
Subject: What is DETTMERS INDUSTRIES?
Message:
Having known this man (and his wife Maria Isobel Marques/ex-initiator from Portugal) very well, can you tell me what DETTMERS INDUSTRIES actually is? Is Michael Dettmers still in the fold? Just curious.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 09:45:50 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: KK
Subject: What is DETTMERS INDUSTRIES?
Message:
I have no idea myself but I can say that Mike Donner suggested that Dettmer's stockpiled tons of MONEY when he was Maharaji's majordomo and split the cult a RICH MAN.

Hey, aren't you simply glad for him? Doesn't that make you want to take back a few of the hast things you've thought and said about Maharaji exploiting people? Some people even xploited MAHARAJI. He's not so BAD.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 10:46:32 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What is DETTMERS INDUSTRIES?
Message:
I also wanted to ask what this was. It appears Dettmers Industries is an offshoot of DECA, as it apparently has something to do with airplane seat manufacturing.

If Dettmers has benefited personally from anything arising out of DECA, I would suggest it is a crime against humanity (perhaps overstated slightly) because if it weren't for ashram slave labor, and the toil and donations of thousands of premies who were duped into thinking that they were dedicating to god incarnate, there never would have BEEN a DECA for Dettmers Industries to 'evolve' from to to enrich Mr. Dettmers. I would suggest that the profits of that company largely belong to the premies who were the human 'capital' that got that enterprise going and should be returned to them.

But I'm also interested, Jim in your suggestion that Michael Dettmers 'left the cult.' Are you saying he is no longer a premie?
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 10:54:10 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: What is DETTMERS INDUSTRIES?
Message:
JW: I'm certainly not an 'expert' on corporate dealings, but it strikes me that the 'original' premie labor and money could easily be an 'investment' in the corporation. If so, don't they (collectively) deserve a yearly 'statement,' stockholder info and dividends checks? I think Mr. Dettmers should look into this.... he he he
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 18:02:56 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: What is DETTMERS INDUSTRIES?
Message:
But I'm also interested, Jim in your suggestion that Michael Dettmers 'left the cult.' Are you saying he is no longer a premie?

Actually, I'm not clear on this. Donner (and maybe Gary Ockendon) explained that Dettmers positioned himself to leave Maharaji's immediate service a modestly wealthy man. Good for him because, truthfully, I never thought he had it in him to make it as a standup comic. I got the impression that he was no longer a premie but, on second thought, I'm not so sure. Maybe Dettmers just faded into community living with a sizeable self-arranged dowry.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 22:20:03 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: What is DETTMERS INDUSTRIES?
Message:
My copy and paste still doesn't work on this forum. You said it appears Dettmers Industries is an offshoot of Deca. I see it as one person, Peter Dettmers, working hard and taking his experience and carving out a business for himself. Andy Pearl came along and helped him develope innovative( but not new) production tecniques through employee incentives, etc. that reduced industry production cycles by one half, etc., thus gaining much market share. Is it a problem for Peter to have gleaned something from those years of his life and acted from that enlightenment? I certainly have.

Therefore, applauding his efforts and acheivements for evolving how to take a chair in aviation to new heights, I have a hard time seeing this as a crime against humanity.

If you can find these people who 'largely ' these profits belong to, send them to the '20 year late club'.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 23:39:22 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: What is DETTMERS INDUSTRIES?
Message:
So, you are saying that Peter, and not Michael who runs Dettmers Industries, correct? If that's true, thanks for the correction.

Does Michael Dettmers have anything to do with the business?
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Date: Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 22:13:26 (EST)
From: DV
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: What is DETTMERS INDUSTRIES?
Message:
I don't know about Michael.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 21:41:24 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: KK
Subject: What is DETTMERS INDUSTRIES?
Message:
Peter Dettmers, his brother.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 10:40:02 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Excellent Point, Mike
Message:
I noticed that distinction too. You're right. NOTHING Maharaji does is wrong, it's always the premies (who are, by implication confused or in their minds) who are WRONG, and Mr. Perl gets to feel like a superior premie by putting the other premies down for lacking in the 'understanding' he has. Pure cult behavior -- it appears that Andy can't let go of his premie honcho role.
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 12:28:40 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: conviction management
Message:
The scanner is working, and I thought you might enjoy the following piece as much as I did. It is an extract from a book entitled 'Hypnosis and Imagination', but many of the issues dealt with are universal.



Gorassini's chapter seems to offer an explanation for the way that people like Maharaji (and his premies, I think) can come to believe false ideas about themselves through first convincing others of their validity.




>>>>



Conviction Management: Lessons from Hypnosis Research about How Self Images of Dubious Validity Can Be Wilifully Sustained



DONALD R. GORASSINI




[There is an] ease with which people can come to believe whatever is convenient to believe, however ludicrous it may be [Chomsky 1, p. 20].




Who we think we are affects how we feel. Therefore, if we could regulate self-reflection, we would, thereby, regulate affect, Rid ourselves of some self-knowledge, that which demonstrates such traits as incompetence or callousness, and we escape anxiety and guilt. Bring forth other self-knowledge, that which implies good characteristics like intelligence and caring, and we gain a sense of pride. It is an unfortunate fact of life that things we would rather not know about ourselves are true, and things we wish were self-descriptive are, sadly, false. Therein lies the incentive to cheat, to ignore painful self-reflection and create conviction in pleasurable self-images, images that an unbiased analysis would reveal to be invalid.



This chapter concerns people's ability to engage in the ostensibly paradoxical activity of telling convincing lies to themselves about who they are. It is argued that people can indeed, as Chomsky asserts, easily convince themselves of ludicrous propositions. A model is presented to show how people succeed at manufacturing conviction in pre-selected self-definitions, even when the definitions are clearly invalid. Perhaps nowhere is the ability to lie effectively to the self about the self more clearly demonstrated than in hypnosis research. After presenting the self deception model, which was spawned by my observations of unhypnotizable subjects role-playing hypnotizable ones, hypnotic research that bears on the model is reviewed.



Some selves that we do not possess we would nonetheless like to have. Only some of these desired selves are, however, pursuable. Pursuable selves (e.g., gardener) can be sought and achieved whereas unpursuable selves (e.g., math genius) are imposed or bestowed by forces acting outside of our control. There is usually no hope of achieving unpursuable selves by legitimate means. But even if we do not possess a desired, unpursuable self, there is another way, albeit illegitimate, of attaining it: pretending it is true.



Consider pursuable self-definitions like gardener and doctor. In each case, the specified self can be thought of as a goat composed of a series of sub-goals. It is only through a conscious planning process that each of the sub-goals in the in the progression can be achieved. Successfully executing the acts serving as means to the overarching goal result in valid application of the self-label. To be sure, pursuable selves vary in difficulty of attainment, with gardener being substantially easier than doctor, but no matter how difficult achievement is, the end can at least be sought, and it will be attained only if there is conscious planning and effort.



Some selves we cannot seek; they become part of our identity without any attempt on our parts to bring them about. These unpursuable selves result from internal (frequently medical) conditions that alter experience or behavior (e.g., migraine, schizophrenia); external events that subtly change our preferences (e.g., mere exposure, classical conditioning) (see, e.g., [2, 3]); or assignment by nature (e.g., male, math genius), other people (e.g., the religion of childhood as assigned by one's parents), or circumstance (e.g., citizenship) before the opportunity to choose and pursue alternatives presents itself.



Consider as an example of an unpursuable self-definition that of a migraine sufferer. An individual having a migraine attack, which occurs due to the constriction of cranial arteries on one side of the head, has unusual experiences (which can include an experience of detachment, partial blindness, numbness facially and in a hand, and the inability to form sentences) followed by extreme head pain. To be defined a migraine sufferer, you must have the disorder that causes the aforementioned syndrome to appear periodically. The process that controls the nature and course of symptoms operates on its own, interfering with consciously governed activity. The condition can be controlled somewhat, with medication, but is nonetheless impervious to direct and decisive conscious control.



The only self-definitions we can hope to attain, therefore, are the pursuable types, but even here attainment usually takes time, with success not always assured. Unpursuable self-definitions, we cannot even hope to attain through our own efforts because they depend on decisive forces operating completely, or almost so, beyond our control. But sometimes strong incentives to claim a particular self, whether the self applies validly or not, are present and demand an immediate response. For those who do not possess the desired definition, there is something to be gained by claiming the self in question nonetheless. Frequently the incentive is affect management: the acquisition of the good feeling that results when flattering information about the self is believed.



To illustrate, consider the richly detailed case study by Festinger, Riecken, and Schachter [4] of a doomsday cult in the United States in which one of the group's leaders, pseudonymed Marion Keech by the investigators, makes what in our terms is an invalid self-claim [4]. She has others believe that beings not of this world communicate through her by controlling what she writes. Keech, in describing her first discovery of the ability, is quoted as saying:




I felt a kind of tingling or numbness in my arm, and my whole arm felt warm right up to the shoulder. . . . I had the feeling that someone was trying to get my attention. Without knowing why, 1 picked up a pencil and a pad that were lying on the table near by bed. My hand began to write in another handwriting. I looked at the handwriting and it was strangely familiar, but I knew it was not my own. I realized that somebody else was using my hand, and I said: 'Will you identify yourself?' And they did. I was much surprised to find that it was my father, who had passed away [4, p. 33].




A number of different entities communicated in this fashion through Keech, principal among them an outer space creature named Sananda, who made several testable predictions about visits to earth by space beings, incipient cataclysms that earth would undergo, and when believers would be rescued by spaceships. None of the predictions came true and the cult ultimately broke up in disarray.





Admittedly, the case study methodology makes it impossible to rule out completely that communication from outer space beings occurred, but the evidence that does exist suggests the messages were untrue. The case study is used here for its expository and heuristic value - to show the possibility and conditions of successfully lying to the self about the self. More definitive, experimental evidence concerning self-deceptive ability will be presented in the third major section of this chapter.



Consider what the above example suggests: First it illustrates that affect-change incentives for believing in invalid self-definitions can be powerful. As Festinger et al. put it:




We can only imagine the awe, the reverence, with which the Armstrongs [other leading members of the doomsday cult] and Mrs. Keech received these momentous pronouncements [from outer space]. Here, in the hands of three fairly ordinary people (by the world's standards) had been placed the most important news of our time, if not of all recorded history. A grave responsibility, an incomparable privilege had been thrust upon them [4, p. 57].




Incentives to Mrs. Keech to lie knowingly-to others but not to herself-about mediumship were weak in comparison to the pay-off for her to deceive herself. In fact, public knowledge of her and the group's beliefs brought nothing but Vouble, including vicious practical jokes, national ridicule, and attention from the police. The only apparent reason for her to press on in the face of such difficulty, with the courage and conviction she displayed, was to maintain a particular kind of self-image, one that brought with it great inner meaning.



Second, the case study illustrates what I mean by a self-claim. Such an assertion need not literally be a statement of the form, 'I am____ ,' but can be, and usually is, nonverbal. Mrs. Keech repeatedly engaged in Ihe behavior of mediumship, which served to reinforce and elaborate her own and the group's knowledge of her apparent gift.



(continued...)
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 12:30:29 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: nigel
Subject: conviction management (cont.)
Message:
Third, self-conviction takes place in a social setting, usually involving the support of like-minded accomplices [4]. Keech was part of a group of doomsdayers whose members refrained from questioning each other's claims cooperated for the most part in building and reinforcing the group's belief system.



Fourth, the example also sets out the nature of the lie to be told to the self On one hand, M~s. Keech in some sense knows she is not a medium, for deliberately acts out behaviors and deliberately engenders experiences Ihat, if they were authentic, would occur involuntarily. On the other hand, she seems able to avoid consciously registering knowledge of her active role-playing, with the result being conviction that she really is a medium.



Finally, the lie that is told to the self is a blatant one: Sananda, the mediumship and all the other core assumptions on which the group operated were false. Lies are always blatant when told about unpursuable selves. If the unpursuable self not been bestowed or imposed, there is little or nothing the person can voluntarily to achieve the definition by legitimate means. (Shades of truth are however, possible when it comes to pursuable selves. In the case of pursuable self-definitions, a lie can be minor, as when a person refers to herself as a doctor after she has completed all her medical training but has three days to go before being admitted to the College of Physicians officially; or the lie can be blatant, when someone calls herself a doctor even though she has had no medical educucation at all.)




Summary and Conclusion




We can experience pressure to claim self-definitions we do not possess. Unfortunately for us, attainment of some desirable selves is beyond our control. The dilemma faced by the individual in these cases is either forego the definition and suffer disappointment and anxiety or convince the self that the definition applies (even though, in reality, it doesn't apply) and, in so doing, bring more meaning to life.



In this chapter, I will focus mainly on lies about the possession of unpursuable self-definitions. Given that these are always the most blatant of lies, it should be that they are the most difficult to tell successfully to the self. If one can sustain these, then upholding lies of a less blatant nature (often the case with pursuable selves) should be a relatively easy task.



>>>>>>>>


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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 12:48:16 (EST)
From: srb
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: conviction management (cont.)
Message:
Thanks again Nigel
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 17:10:09 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: conviction management (cont.)
Message:
To pursue or not to pursue is apparently the question here. Has M become so enamored with the unpursuable (being Perfect Master) that he really believes this is what he is? Would it be too painful for him to see himself any other way? Is that what it's come to, he's become addicted to the role he plays? If this theory is correct, than everything associated with the role is a blatant lie, which can only mean that the Knowledge is as much of an illusion as the Perfect Master who is teaching it. I'm sure there are plenty of people who would disagree with this (throwing out the baby with the bathwater, etc.) but I'm willing to accept the hypothesis that this is what M & K are about.
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 20:24:06 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: leave no room for doubt...
Message:
This is ''perfectly'' TRUE AND CORRECT.

Knowledge is as much of an illusion as the Perfect Master who is teaching it.
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 15:39:38 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: conviction management
Message:
Nigel:

Re: A number of different entities communicated in this fashion through Keech, principal among them an outer space creature named Sananda, who made several testable predictions about visits to earth by space beings, incipient cataclysms that earth would undergo, and when believers would be rescued by spaceships. None of the predictions came true and the cult ultimately broke up in disarray.

This is a strange coincidence. She told me that I was a 'Captain' in the 'Ashtar Command,' giving me not only a certain status within the group, but enough charisma to acquire an attractive girlfriend. I enjoyed this situation for awhile, but when I began to ask how any or all of this could be possible (just out of curiosity) I received a prompt demotion and my relationship got some urgent reconsideration. It was one of the goofiest cults I ever saw, and my excuse is that the girl (not the medium) looked a lot like Cher Bono. (My principles are not easily compromised.)

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 17:22:41 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Vultures
Message:
Scott: I got this image in my brain and just can't get rid of it. NO, not you in a Captain Ashtar suit! Looking back to our youth, I see a LARGE group of individuals, all seeking 'truth' and 'happiness.' All wanting, with their whole being, to do some real, lasting good in this world. All idealists, to the person. This youthful group was not geo-specific, but international in scope. Then....

I see the vultures: Cult-leaders, gurus, mediums, psychics, pseudo-religions, eastern mysticism, just-plain-nuts, you-name-it; popping up all over the place AND at roughly the same time. Think about it. Isn't it amazing how ALL of the 'answers' sprang into existence (in the west, anyway) at almost the same instant? Just when we were most vulnerable to their attack. Like vultures they were and vultures they ALL are. Feeding on the hopes of a whole generation (and then some). Producing nothing for humanity in the wake of their flight. Leaving nothing behind except the bleached bones of dead dreams.

Sorry, sometimes I wax poetic.... No offense to the lowly vulture, either. They, unlike gurus, actually do a valuable service for life on this planet.
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 17:36:49 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Vultures
Message:
Mike:

I resent the implication that I wore a uniform. I couldn't even figure out how to don the crystal that gave me direct contact with the mother ship, and couldn't figure why the damn thing never worked. That's what got me into trouble. I kept bugging Cher by cracking the thing on my forehead and saying: 'Battery must be dead.' Boy, was she relieved to see me go!

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 17:59:32 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: LOL LOL LOL (nt)
Message:
Too good, Scott .... LOL
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 18:54:20 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Vultures
Message:
Hey, Captain Ashtar.

Put a glide in your stride
A dip in your hip
And come on up
To the mothership


George Clinton of Funkadelic. I forget when he said it.
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 18:11:35 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Vultures
Message:
Mike:

Just wanted to clear up another slight misconception. I wasn't Ashtar, for heaven sake. Sananda was, like, the commander of the galaxy, Ashtar was the commander of the local fleet that hung around earth. I used to call it the 'crash car' commmand, composed of a fleet of 1956 Chevies in high earth orbit. That made me real popular.

You are right. There was a good deal of pathos connected with this experience. I suppose I related to the people even if not to their silly cosmology. I liked other traits about the people, and the medium was not really nefarious or anything. She was pretty regular, except when she was channeling. And as long as I wasn't too much of a nuisance most of the people seemed to care about me. I think most of those people just went on to the next cult, after that one broke up. Some were heavily into re-birthing. A couldn't get that act right either.

But, are you sure we were so innocent? I mean, some of us were exploited but we were looking for an easy way to do the difficult or next-to-impossible. That smacks not only of stupidity but also laziness. I finally decided that there was a moral rot at the core of all those movements, not just with the leaders. But perhaps I'm being too harsh. We were pretty young, I guess.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 19:01:51 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Any way at all
Message:
Scott: You bring up a good point (the rest was HILARIOUS, BTW). Yes, I think we were THAT innocent and, thus, that gullible. How can I say this? Well, I don't think we were looking for the 'easy' way, but ANY WAY. Whether it was difficult or easy didn't matter to me. I just wanted the 'real' deal. Of course, when the 'real deal' presented itself as 'easy,' that certainly didn't hurt.... he he he.

Bringing up 'crash car' command made me think of something: Holy Order of MANS, when pronounced properly, sounded like we were talking about Le Mans (the race) or a Manza (the car). Hmmmm, maybe there's a connection... he he he. Hey, wait a minute... there is a connection.... M loves cars! Oh, man.... caught by the great car maker conspiracy!
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 01:11:43 (EST)
From: Saul
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Vultures
Message:
Nice post Mike, but I've had just about ENOUGH VULTURE BASHING around here. Vutures at least wait for their victims to die before feeding and don't tell their victims how lucky they are to be having this wonderful experience.
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 19:05:24 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: To Nigel
Message:
Nigel: I just realized that we've done it again, darn it! Here you have an EXCELLENT set of posts and we just hijacked it with our jokes. SORRY.... Seriously! I promise, I'll try to do better, in spite of my humorous side.

Mike :-)
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 19:19:06 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Don't worry, Mike...
Message:
Just pay attention, below! :-)
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 19:28:19 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: People with Knowledge
Subject: Consider this, premies...
Message:
(First try saying 'flame-free thread' 10 times quickly. That was fun.)
Now consider this:

I want to try and apply Garossini's argument (and Festinger's 'cognitive dissonance' theory) to the question of Perfect masters, but in the interests of a thame-flee fred I am going to start with two assumptions:

(1) It is indeed possible for God to manifest in human form.
(2) When Maharaji claimed to be the Lord he was telling the truth.

Although I don't believe either statement, for the duration of what follows I will accept both of them as true. OK? That way premies should be able to agree with my reasoning right through, or, if they don't agree, chip in with alternative suggestions. I'd love to hear them.

When somebody, anybody, claims to be the Lord in human form / Satguru / Living Perfect Master, there are only three possibilities: they are telling the truth; they are deluded; or they are wilful deceivers. It is also an irrefutable fact that there are alive today many (usually) men claiming to be the Living Lord. Each of them offers a gift, a lifestyle or spiritual practice that will deliver their followers from the veil of illusion and bring them happiness and enlightenment.

Say, for arguments sake, there are 100 such holy gentlemen scattered around the globe (probably an underestimate, but it's a round number). Since they invariably claim exclusive rights to supreme divinity, but can't any of them be Lord because Maharaji is the Lord, then the only possibilies left are that 99 Perfect Masters are either deluded or wilful deceivers.

There are no other alternatives. Let's be charitable and assume that none are outright charlatans. That means 99 Masters have somehow been deluded into believing themselves uniquely divine, including Maharaji's own brother.

And so must their thousands of followers be deluded. Since Knowldege is Maharaji's unique gift, whatever the others are offering cannot be the vicar's knickers. If these thousands of followers of whoever also claim to have found true and lasting happiness, it must be either illusory or of a lower grade than the happiness enjoyed by premies? Or, of course, they're all just lying.

How could such large-scale delusion possibly happen. We know it does happen, given our starting assumptions. But how?

I think Garossini is on the right lines. Consider the case of His Almighty Grace Shri Unwin Bhaji. Since his childhood Unwin Bhaji has been in possession of the Grace to bestow the gift known as 'Wisdom' upon his fortunate followers (known as 'pappodums'). His becoming deluded in the first place is hardly his fault since children can't be blamed for believing what the adults around them are saying.

But, of course, not all of the other 98 fakes have been deluded since childhood, but what they have in common is followerswho believe in them, love them, trust them, worship and respect them, and look after them as if they were children. When did you last hear of a fake Master keeping up his delusion of divinity for many years without having any followers? (outside of a psychiatric ward, that is).

Now suppose Shri Unwin Bhaji passes through his teens buoyed up on an ocean of love, adoration, physical comfort and the finest gifts his devotees can provide. He is certainly reaping the rewards of having acquired the fake self, wouldn't you agree? But what happens when the doubts creep in as he matures? Suddenly he is no longer sure of his divinity, but what are his options? He could (1) 'do a Krishnamurti' and come clean. His honesty and candour would earn much respect, but the rewards he mosts treasures will be gone. (2) He can become a wilful deceiver, and continue playing the God role even though he no longer believes it, or (3) He can take the path of least resistance and persuade himself that he is, after all, the Lord.

Option (1) is only an option if you do it in early adulthood; leave it any later, then the reduced rewards (ie., the respect you earn for your honesty) will diminish with each pasing year, as the resultant disillusionment of your followers would increase proportionally. Option (2) is a cognition too uncomfortable to countenance, making option (3) the choice that is most 'convenient to believe, no matter how ludicrous', as Chomsky put it. He is greatly eased in this re-affirmation of self-belief by the abundant evidence of dewey-eyed devotees in their thousands, hanging on to his every word, expressing their eternal joy and gratitude. How, after all, could he not be the Lord?

But Bhaji is not the Lord, remember; Maharaji is. And Wisdom is not the real thing; Knowledge is. So how would dissonance theory explain the reported experiences and behaviour of the pappodums, seeing as how they don't have a true Master, or a true experience?

It could work like this, I suppose: Before they receive Wisdom and become pappodums, the followers must go through a waiting period during which time they are known as 'seekers'. Seekers are required to express some sort of commitment to Shri Bhaji before they are revealed the 'Wisdom Methods'. Such is their overwhelming desire to discover the secret, they quickly become convinced of its validity. They tell at least half a dozen of their nearest and dearest, that they believe they have found the one and only truth, staking their own reputation on it and sometimes losing all their friends in the process.

But they are deluded, remember, because they are not following Maharaji. When they finally 'receive Wisdom', it does not, and cannot give them 'such peace as will never die'. Dissonance again. They must either face up to the enormous pain of disillusionment, and the embarrassment of admitting a pretty serious error of judgement, or they must somehow convince themselves that both their master and his teachings are genuine. But convincing yourself that you are happy when you are not happy is all but impossible.

What they can do, however is tell themselves how much happier they are than they would have been if they had never received Wisdom. Since this assertion is non-falsifiable, it is easy to take on board. They can also then allow themselves to believe that it will all happen for them sometime in the future when they have put more effort, and expressed even more joy and gratitude to their master, since that is so obviously what he is requiring of them.

In the meantime there are other modest rewards. The other seekers suddenly look up to you, now that you're a pappodum with something to talk about. And the more incredible you make the gift of Wisdom sound, the more their faces will light up as you speak. You can rapidly adopt the fake self of being 'somebody special', one of the 'chosen few' who is on 'the true spiritual path'. Again this all the path of least resistance.

Thus the fake Master and his misguided followers can mutually reinforce one another's delusion indefinitely.

What do you reckon, premies? How would you explain away the fakes and their followers with their heartfelt, lifelong commitment to bogus spiritual practices that seem to make them all so happy? Has Maharaji ever held forth on the subject? He ought to find it interesting, surely. You believe he is the Lord, remember, and in this post I have gone a million miles out of my way to concede that possibility. Shouldn't the genuine Lord have some words of guidance on the matter? After all, there are some remarkable similarities between Maharaji's path and the paths offered by the 99 fake Masters, and people could easily become confused.

Your turn.
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 19:46:57 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Consider this, premies...
Message:
Nigel:

This is probably a silly question, but why couldn't there be 100 Perfect Masters? I mean, why couldn't God be a committee, or a host (Elohim)? I mean... I know it's not Kosher...

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 22:25:20 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Consider this, premies...
Message:
GM is the one who said he was THE Lord in human form. So, that was the argument Nigel was demonstrating (in reverse) Remember singing arti: You are the most cluey in the universe, and nothing else will bring me knowledge of my soul.
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 01:40:34 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: A constellation of perfectness
Message:
Helen:

Re: GM is the one who said he was THE Lord in human form. So, that was the argument Nigel was demonstrating (in reverse)

Sorry, I thought it was a free-for-all. I have heard some premies of other PMs indicate that they felt two could be around at the same time. If two, why not 100? Anyway, it's not very likely there is even one, but if there can be 100 why not 1000? Say, I wonder what I'd do if I were suddenly declared the Perfect Master? Probably say: 'Gosh, I didn't know that. Just goes to show yah. If it ain't one thing it's another. If you ain't a Captain in the Ashtar Command, maybe you're a Perfect Master? If you ain't a Perfect Master, maybe you're a brain surgeon? You just never know. It's just that my many Perfect Master qualities have never been recognized before. Now that I think about it, though, I'm not at all surprised. I've been expecting it all along. That explains why I was able to call myself on the phone the other day.'

-Scott
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 07:44:46 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: g-g-g-gurus are grrreat!
Message:
Hey, guy, I myself used to think GM was a realized soul and that there were many realized souls on the planet. How else could I explain away that each of my cadre of freinds had a Guru? Pick one: Muktananda (my boyfriend), Ram Dass' guru (my best friend), Satchinanda (sp)--other friends, Swami Jyoti (local guy--many friends)), Krishna (music partner), Yogi Bhagan (work partners), The Ananda Marga guru guy (more work partners) and on & on. It was a giant guru-a -thon back then!!!

G-g-guru
Guru
Gotta get a guru!
My guru can beat up your guru
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 20:13:09 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: A constellation of perfectness
Message:
M said recently that WE could have the experience he is having. He made it sound like something new, a level above and beyond the premie experience. A buncha poific massas?
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 15:27:10 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: Hey, DV...
Message:
dv: For once, I think M may be telling the absolute truth. We did experience what he was experiencing.... NOTHING! snicker
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 08:15:54 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Consider this, premies...
Message:
'elohim', an interesting concept, scott. it goes back a long way.
maybe you are onto something with that. and unless you are going to eat them, you don't have to worry about them being kosher.
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 10:29:07 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: The Paradox of Liberalism
Message:
shp:

Well, the idea of God being a committee has certain profound implications for the validity of electoral systems, since there would be no way to reach consensus on an endstate w/o a series of votes. If you allowed one of the entities dictatorial powers then the inescabable conclusion would be that you had one individual with many faces. On the other hand, if it were possible to have 101 perfect end states then each one could take a turn voting for comprehensive changes to the present conditions, setting up the conditions for the next one's vote. Since each one is guided by their preferred end state, and there were 100 separate manifestations, you would need to have 101 perfect end states: the 100 preferences plus the final result of the election of the 'elect.' On the other hand, if they were all omniscient and omnipotent they would have to know the preferences of all of the others and would have to agree not to impose their own. Indeed, this latter restriction is something of a paradox, since it implies that the system takes precedence over omnipotence, or in other words the participants are not really actively omnipotent... They would also have to agree not to meddle with the preferences of others since that would actually test their omnipotence vis the omnipotence of the other manifestation, and would settle the issue of which was really God. The situation could only continue with some built-in ambiguities of that ilk.

-Scott
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 10:56:23 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: visions and dreams
Message:
i'd like to live among a tribe or group who were connected to all of their invisible faculties (that most humans have either lost or buried under 'modern' socialization) and respected their visions and dreams, like the native americans or biblical times. somebody said, i think it was lincoln: 'where there is no vision, the people perish'.

so maybe these visions are from gas, or a bad night's sleep, or projected from an extra-terrestrial vehicle full of earthkeepers
whose job it is to help us evolve, or god. but i like the general idea of being self-contained...having all of my faculties functional including the internal guidance pick-ups to the invisible realm...and to rest in the knowledge that i can trust them as implicitly as putting one foot in front of the other and walking.
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 14:03:28 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: visions and dreams
Message:
shp:

but i like the general idea of being self-contained...having all of my faculties functional including the internal guidance pick-ups to the invisible realm...and to rest in the knowledge that i can trust them as implicitly as putting one foot in front of the other and walking.

I don't think that is possible. If you had that much trust in your subjective experiences (assuming that's what you mean by your perception of 'the invisible realm') you'd be badly out of balance, since it would invariably be at odds with much of your objective experience. There must be tension in that tradeoff. Like many sentiments that sound nice superficially, it may just be another 'road to serfdom.'

It was the white europeans who first evolved the notion of the 'noble red man,' which had to be a romanticized image. Native American society was 'segmented' and ruled to a large extent by superstition and unjust domination of the individual. In fact, there was no individual in our sense. That doesn't mean it was all bad, but it was assuredly not all good. Life was harsh and short. Mind you, I grew up with Native Americans (my grade school principal was a Blackfoot), and attended sweat lodge. I do not tend to romanticize that image, though I respect it. If I had to choose between the intuitive insights of the aboriginal cultures and the rule of law it would not be a close call.

-Scott
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 14:29:06 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: visions and dreams
Message:
the noble red man existed before the english knew how to build a boat to carry them to the north american continent, and turn them into a concept.

the ojibwa indians of the great lakes were healers, the hopi were very peaceful, and so on. the usa founding fathers took much from the iriquois to create the declaration of independence and the constitution....

visions and dreams coupled with an evolved and peaceful behavior and society, for it is not now as it was then and it shall be different tomorrow - all spinning aorund the changless bliss. that is a vison of mine.

gotta go.
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 15:02:13 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: visions and dreams
Message:
shp:

I agree that the Iriqouis had evolved a good idea, but it's probably a mis-representation to say that the founders got the idea of balance of powers exclusively from them. They saw it as a good example of what Montesque was talking about in his writings on power, and power sharing. The red man certainly existed before the white man attributed nobility to him. My point was that segnmented societies have been over-idealized. The Ojibwa may have been healers, but I'd be willing to bet their average life expectancy was not much over two score. It also might have been quite dangerous and 'unhealthy' for you to disagree with the medicine man about anything substantive. That was simply not tolerated. Banishment was the most typical punishment, but dismemberment was not unheard of, even for innocuous offenses. You would not have enjoyed even nominal rights as an individual. They lacked such a concept altogether.

-Scott
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 15:47:59 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: visions and dreams
Message:
Scott: As you already know, I have more than a passing interest in this subject (seeing as it pertains to my relatives). You are quite correct on a number of points. I might add that native americans have been referred to, by environmentalists, as the ultimate stewards. Unfortunately, I have to be truthful here and say that there are a number of villages that had to be abandoned because of environmental problems created by the native inhabitants. Many of these occurred long before the white man ventured onto these shores. The biggest difference between now and 'then' was that native americans didn't have the technology that would permit ruination on such a large scale. If they had such a technology, back then, the results would have been the same as they are now. NOW, the native americans (generally) know better, but their lessons were hard earned, too (just like ours!).
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 16:50:39 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: visions and dreams
Message:
Mike:

RE: Unfortunately, I have to be truthful here and say that there are a number of villages that had to be abandoned because of environmental problems created by the native inhabitants. Many of these occurred long before the white man ventured onto these shores.

Assume you are talking about the Nazca, which was the most integrated and 'advanced' of the native american societies. I think they were the ancestors of the Pueblo, though they may have been unrelated. The fact is that the native amarican culture was mostly neolithic, and if one believes that's better then so be it. It was less complicated, certainly. But, there was no night life at all. When the sun went down, you went to bed. That probably kept them pretty much on the straight and narrow. To tell the truth I had forgotten that you were part native american, though I recall it now.

-Scott
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 17:29:39 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: visions and dreams
Message:
Scott: There are some strong indications that this occurred all over the southwest, from time to time. There are several sites here in AZ that may be candidates for inclusion into the enviro-disaster record books. The jury is still out on these, but the indications are that some of these sites were abandoned for self-inflicted environmental reasons. Again, as you said, the 'idea' that native americans were something extra-special precluded research into anything contrary to this idea. Such is not the case, anymore. I, for one, am glad to see this research because it brings to light the simple fact that we CAN/NEED to learn from the mistakes of others, so we don't repeat them on a grand scale. Additionally, I'm interested in the reasons for the 'bug-out.' What on earth could they have done, with their limited technologies, to cause the need for a mass bug-out? THEN, let's make sure we don't make the same mistake with the same (or any other) real estate. In most cases, though, it appears that it was simply too many people on too little land (simple overuse). Sounds a bit like cities, eh? (I must admit I really dislike cities, so I'm biased).

Although not on our continent, did you know that Easter Island used to be VERY HEAVILY forested? Probably a dumb question, in your case, but it illustrates a point. The 'stripping' of the forests occurred prior to any white man even seeing this island, much less living on it. It was soley inhabited by those of polynesian descent, at the time. Again, a group that is touted for 'always' being great stewards of the land..... and another one bites the dust! I guess my point is that great stewardship has nothing, at all, to do with 'race.' It has to do with awareness. In that regard, no single group has the edge (IMHO). Of course, we must be much more careful today (and much more aware) because what we do has GLOBAL implications. The next bug-out ain't gonna be so easy, I'm afraid.
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 20:56:45 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Excellent -- Brian? Katie?
Message:
Excellent post, Nigel. I'm even thinking of reading the rest of the thread now.

Brian, Katie,

I'm really sorry for bugging you guys so much this week. Well not REALLY sorry, but kind of s... well, shit, that's what you get paid for, right? (Why am I always apologizing for everything? Huh? Huh, Lord? Why me? Why don't YOU apologize for something for a change? Come on, Lord, come on, bud, you can do it! Get down on your knees with me right now. Here, you're the Lord, you can use this little satin pillow. Kneel, will ya'? Repeat after me, 'Lord...' Wait, that won't work. Let me think about this...)

Anyway, B & K, what do you think of having a little bitty page somewhere with some cool arguments, challenges, puzzles or brain twisters for premies? You know, like a permanent driver's examination course.

Naw, forget it. First, it won't be much fun if we just end up referring premies to a set of questions again and again. Also, what if Nigel or anyone else interested gets more questions than me? No, I think it's a bad idea. Sorry for waking you up like this. (You DO have a bell that goes off whenever someone posts your name in the subject line, don't you? And a beeper? Hey, there's an idea....
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 13:43:34 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Jim
Subject: Excellent -- Brian? Katie?
Message:
You DO have a bell that goes off whenever someone posts your name in the subject line, don't you?

Of course there's a bell! This is a high-tech site.

However, it's wired in such a way that it doesn't ring if the word Jim appears in the 'From:' field. It's a Microsoft thang, I think...
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Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 22:21:41 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Consider this, premies...
Message:
Excellent Nigel. Willful deceiver or path of least resistance? Evil or deluded? Which is Maharaji?
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 01:22:56 (EST)
From: John Hammond-Smyth
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Consider this, premies...
Message:
Maharaji IS the Lord. He is the Almighty and Supreme God come in perfect human form and there is none higher than he. Why, all the souls in all the Universe are dying to be reincarnated on this Earth as ANIMALS while Maharaji walks the earth.

Maharaji's brother, Satpal or Bal Bagwan Ji is the reincarnation of Lucifer and Marolyn is the reincarnation of the Virgin Mary. All the instructors are reincarnations of Jesus's disciples except David Smith who is St Peter. Anne Johnson is, of course, Mary Magdoline.

Oh you poor, suffering fools, you are but dust at his feet. Most fortunate are you who is a dog turd on the path to salvation. Praise be, brothers and sisters! Maharaji IS who he claimed he was, now and forever. He is GOD! Shout it on the streets! Why be shy?
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 07:48:30 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: John Hammond-Smyth
Subject: Tinkie WInkie father
Message:
Remember me, father, it is I, Tinkie Winkie the guinea pig's protector. I am blessed among women, remember? Oh father, I am confused. I fear that she is just a dear little fuzzy guinea pig and not a reincarnation of our Lord after all. Please advise me, I am very confused.
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 12:29:33 (EST)
From: John Hammond-Smyth
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Tinkie WInkie father
Message:
Believe it or not, Helen, we were told in the seventies by some Mahatmas that souls from all over the universe were reincarnating as mere animals, just to be on the same planet as the Lord. They never hoped for a human birth - just to be a worm at his feet was enough.

Of course, Tinky Winky must be the next incarnation of God. So now there are TWO Lords on the planet. Mind you, I never did understand this concept. But then how can I, a mere mortal, possibly understand the workings of God. So do a pranam to your Guinea Pig for me.
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 23:20:28 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: John Hammond-Smyth
Subject: Animals incarnated
Message:
That is so coo-coo (that thing about animals reincarnating to be near the Lord). I read a satsang over on Jean Michels' site (forgive me if I spelled his name wrong) where Maharaji said all animals are suffering because they cannot speak. Well, if you put an animal in its natural habitat with food, fresh air, companionship, and health, they sure look happy to me. I sure have seen a lot of smiley dogs in my time!! I don't think the doggies are sad about somethingthey don't know they're missing (speaking). It's a ridiculous bunch of rubbish.
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 00:41:40 (EST)
From: John Hammond-Smyth
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Animals incarnated & myths
Message:
I'm in danger of reverting back to my other, more normal, Knight character in this conversation, so hang on a minute,

'Bholey Shri Sat Guru Dev Maharaj Ki Jai!!!'
'Ananda Gander? Bal Bagwan Ki Jai!!!'

There, that's better. You only have to look at a dog who's just brought back a ball to you which you threw and see them pretend to give the ball back to you, only to snatch it back at the last moment, to see that animals have a great sense of humour and express themselves very well to us indeed.

We know what a dog's wagging tail is. A cat's purr is instantly reckognised as displaying the emotion of pleasure and happiness and now scientists have discovered that rats giggle when they are tickled.

Maharaji's brand of Hinduism comes down pretty hard on animals. His Father used to say that soldiers who died in a battle would be reincarnated as tigers or elephants. You have to understand that Hinduism is greatly involved with animals in its belief systems. I personally think that Maharaji's father passed on a particularly jaded form of Hinduism to Prem Pal. The Hindu religion is very old and archaic. Pre-medieval. They have countless gods and rather strange theories about the nature of God. God is a fearsome beast with many heads and quite terrifying, in Hindu religion (mythology is a better word). The trouble is, you get gurus proclaiming all these myths to be true and with such conviction. But isn't that true of most religions?

But think on this; if you met a Greek guru who spoke about Greek Gods such as Zeus and Perseus and the like and proclaimed it all to be the truth, would you believe him? Probably not because you've learned at school that this is Greek mythology. Well Hinduism is just as mythical and no closer to the truth than any of the other ancient beliefs.
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 20:57:10 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: John Hammond-Smyth
Subject: Animals incarnated & myths
Message:
Good point, father, Knight, hey, who are you anyway? VAT IS THIS CRAZY FORUM, SOME KIND OF DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS SEXPOT GAME? Sorry that was Little Yiddish Grandma, my alter ego.

You are so right on about mythology. I have a very brilliant friend who says she sometimes thinks that the Greco-Roman view of many gods is as good an explanation as any for the crazy things that happen. In fact, she has been known to make an offering to all those gods, when crazy things keep happening at her house like the airconditioning breaking down during a heat wave, all her boys getting strep throat at the same time, and, the basement getting flooded. She tries not to make the gods angry (: (of course she's just kiddin' around)

You are so right about doggies and kitty cats. God, I love 'em. I am in love with several kitty cats & doggies I know (don't tell my husband) Seriously now, I doubt that those well cared for, well loved animals are suffering too much, man! Now of course there's a lot of crazy people who used to believe that animals and babies don't feel pain--and of course a lot of animals suffer due to our ignorance, but that's another story
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 23:14:23 (EST)
From: John Hammond-Smyth
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: But the truth can be stranger
Message:
Helen; as a boy I was obsessed with the Vikings and their culture and used to think their adventures and gods such as Odin and Thor were absolutely fascinating.

In truth, most Vikings were not violent and could be civilised and were very good at assimulating into other societies. It was the Vikings who settled in Northern France, mixed some of the local culture with their own and then invaded Britain, some decades later in 1066. Those Normans were the sons of Vikings who had originally come from Scandinavia as Norsemen (Northmen). Our British aristocracy are descended from those Viking warlords.

As a young teenager I read H Rider Haggard's book, 'She' and was utterly transfixed by it. I wondered at the time whether there really had been such a person and the ancient Egyptians seemed to have the answer in the form of the goddess, Isis. Actually I think that in the story, She or Ayesha was supposed to be Isis.

By the way, H Rider Haggard's books are amongst the best I've ever read. The film version of 'She' doesn't do the book justice. The same is true of all other film versions of his books.

Yep, Sir David is me and the Right Reverend John Hammond-Smyth is my fanatical premie alter ego (as once was).
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 08:57:35 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: John Hammond-Smyth
Subject: But the truth can be stranger
Message:
I always loved the epic poem Beowulf re: the Germanic tribes...very cool stuff. Reading all that Viking stuff prepared you for the responsibility of chessehat and lance!

Love,
Helen
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 16:03:19 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Animals incarnated
Message:
Helen: You are right. How can an animal, any animal, be sad about something they NEVER had. There doesn't even appear to be a speech center in their brains, so how could they possibly miss having speech? What a silly concept. You know, this applies to humans, too. Humans that have never 'known' hearing or seeing don't miss them at all. The only problems that occur are barriers thrown up by people that CAN see and/or hear. John Hammond-Smyth had it right, too. If you play with a dog, on their own level, they love it (and so do we)! Suffering indeed! Heck, they're probably happy that they don't have to meet the perfect hamster..... Well, I don't know.... Dogs seem to know what to do with hamsters, perfect or otherwise.... he he he ;-)
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 21:01:46 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Smiley doggies, purr-fect cats
Message:
I can't wait to get my new doggie (I've signed up for Lab REscue) and I'm hoping to get one soon...you guys are making me long for a doggie again (of course I love kitty cats too but my hubby's allergic) Mike you would love this book 'Dogs Never Lie About Love' if you haven't read it already.

I know a few kitty cats who think their little lotus toes should be kissed regularly (and why not)?
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 01:40:39 (EST)
From: Saul
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Consider this, premies...
Message:
Hi Nigel. I think that one of the best things for the premies is to see just how many Perfect Masters there are out there and how many people are as totally devoted to their guy as they are to M.
However, I think that premies may be put off by what they see as a challenge to debate M. They will think to themselves that they have their experience and don't need to debate anyone about it.

On the other hand, imagine a site with all 50(?) perfect master types together with straightforward uncritical testimonials from devotees of each guy explaining what profound experiences they are having due to Guru X and how sure they are that Guru X is God incarnate come to save humanity. I think that premies could see just how similar the testimonials are to things that they have heard or maybe said themselves about M. One of the fastest ways to become and atheist is to study comparative religions.

By the way, I think that not everyone who talks about spiritual things is a fake. I also think that most of them, even the fakes, have a component of profound truth. In the case of the fakes, this is how people get trapped.

Saul
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 07:54:59 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Saul
Subject: SPiritual teachers
Message:
I agree Saul that folk who talk about spiritual things are not all fakes. However, when one of them says they have merged with God, or have achieved enlightenment, & in order to do so yourself you must surrender to them--all of that is suspect to me now. Even the dear Dalai Lama who seems as harmless as a plum blossom--I gotta wonder about all this 'he's the reincarnated holy one in the long lineage' stuff. But I still like him and read his books

There is spirituality after Maharaji, but a more skeptical version of it, I should hope. (IMHO)
Helen
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 10:33:01 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Saul
Subject: Depends what u mean by 'fake'
Message:
By the way, I think that not everyone who talks about spiritual things is a fake. I also think that most of them, even the fakes, have a component of profound truth. In the case of the fakes, this is how people get trapped.

Saul,

If there's no consciousness outside the brain (my guess) then all spirituality's misguided. That's it, end of story. Obviously, though, tons of people who believe in the existence of a 'spiritual' realm are sincere. To that extent they're not fakes. And as for a 'component of profound truth', I'd say not. Maybe some BANAL truth mixed in with some profound SOUNDING sentiments. But 'profound truth'? Sorry, don't think so.
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 22:25:52 (EST)
From: Saul
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Depends what u mean by 'fake'
Message:
|
|If there's no consciousness outside the brain (my guess) then |all spirituality's misguided. That's it, end of story. |Obviously, though, tons of people who believe in the existence |of a 'spiritual' realm are sincere.
|I'd say not. Maybe some BANAL truth mixed in with some profound |SOUNDING sentiments. But 'profound truth'? Sorry, don't think so.
|
Hi Jim,
I think I know where you're coming from. I don't think that the universe is conscious or anything like that, but I do think that you might be missing something by dismissing that whole section of the bookstore that you think is 100% crap. In among the crap is, I think, important, practical and non-obvious things about our existence that can be of great value. In that sense, these are 'profound truths.'

Saul
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 22:36:21 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: None
To: Saul
Subject: Depends what u mean by 'fake'
Message:
In among the crap is, I think, important, practical and non-obvious things about our existence that can be of great value. In that sense, these are 'profound truths.'

Saul:

The section of the bookshop I find most depressing is the huge centrally placed display - larger than 'Physics' and 'Psychology' combined - that is labelled 'Mind, Body and Spirit'. And dear God there really is some contemptible crap in there.

I can't say for sure whether there aren't also 'profound truths' hidden among them, but I think it would help if you could identify the books you have in mind.
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 22:54:00 (EST)
From: Saul
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: Depends what u mean by 'fake'
Message:
[nigel:
The section of the bookshop I find most depressing is the huge centrally placed display - larger than 'Physics' and 'Psychology' combined - that is labelled 'Mind, Body and Spirit'. And dear God there really is some contemptible crap in there. ]

Nigel

Yeah. The part that I find most revolting is over in the b'idness section where pretentious eastern mysticism gets blended with corporate management, sales and marketing.

Saul
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 23:07:39 (EST)
From: Saul
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: Depends what u mean by 'fake'
Message:
|
|I can't say for sure whether there aren't also 'profound truths' |hidden among them, but I think it would help if you could |identify the books you have in mind.
|
Hi Nigel,
I was thinking of several books by Thich Nhat Hanh (sp?) and a nice (but slightly goofy) book called 'The way of the peaceful warrior.' These I would personally say are 100% beneficial.

I think that most of the books, even the very bad ones, have important things in them, if only from parroting something else. Most of the bad ones, though, seem semi-harmless (unlike M and many like him).

Saul
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 22:42:28 (EST)
From: Saul
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Depends what u mean by 'fake'
Message:
Jim,

...also, I think that in a way, we are spiritual creatures by definition, because what you mean by 'me' isn't quite your brain, it's more what's symbolically in your brain. This is a bit non-physical in the same sense that software is or maybe in the sense that a mathematical theorem is.

This reminds me of once when I was driving near the ex-SSC lab in Texas and saw a giant, white, 18 wheel tractor trailer truck with only one word written on the side in huge letters: SOFTWARE.

Saul
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 22:47:13 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Saul
Subject: Depends what u mean by 'fake'
Message:
...also, I think that in a way, we are spiritual creatures by definition, because what you mean by 'me' isn't quite your brain, it's more what's symbolically in your brain. This is a bit non-physical in the same sense that software is or maybe in the sense that a mathematical theorem is.

How can you say that our consciousness exceeds our brain when a) there's no evidence that it does; and b) we're just now beginning to really learn about the brain and certainly don't know its limits yet?
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 22:59:14 (EST)
From: Saul
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Depends what u mean by 'fake'
Message:
Hey Jim,

I don't think that our consciousness exceeds our brain any more than Windows NT exceeds my laptop.

By the way, don't you find consciousness a very suspicious concept? Here we have something totally lacking a sensible definition, and yet EVERYONE is 100% SURE they have it - whatever it turns out to be.

Saul
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 23:05:51 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Saul
Subject: Depends what u mean by 'fake'
Message:
By the way, don't you find consciousness a very suspicious concept? Here we have something totally lacking a sensible definition, and yet EVERYONE is 100% SURE they have it - whatever it turns out to be.

Saul,

Consciousness is necessarily a confusing concept for us to consciously grapple with. But suspicious? Why would you say that? Besides, I don't think it is that hard to come up with a 'sensible definition' of consciousness. It's simply awareness, isn't it? As for how it works, well that's kind of tricky.
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 23:20:19 (EST)
From: Saul
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Depends what u mean by 'fake'
Message:
Jim,

I mean that we have this property X which we are trying to define. Why are we trying to define it? Basically because everyone is so sure that they have it. I mean I'm 'suspicious'
that this is going to be a concept constructed more to make us feel nice rather than to lead to interesting insights. It reminds me of those efforts to distinguish humans from the rest of the animals by 'tool building', 'language using' etc.

If you're interested in conciousness, though you might want to look at Marvin Minsky's book 'Society of Mind.'

Saul
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 21:01:40 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Saul
Subject: Depends what u mean by 'fake'
Message:
I mean that we have this property X which we are trying to define. Why are we trying to define it? Basically because everyone is so sure that they have it.

I don't follow. Isn't your consciousness self-evident? Do you doubt its existence?

I mean I'm 'suspicious'
that this is going to be a concept constructed more to make us feel nice rather than to lead to interesting insights. It reminds me of those efforts to distinguish humans from the rest of the animals by 'tool building', 'language using' etc.


What ABOUT those efforts? You don't think that humans are distinguishable on the basis of language? Yes, other animals make and use tools but none to our extent. No other animals have abstract languages though. At least that's what scientists currently believe. Cetaceans communicate but it's not currently believed that they articulate abstract concepts like we do.

In any event, what's so important about finding a hard, clear line between us and other species? We've got over 98 per cent identical DNA as do chimps (and even slightly higher commonality with bonobos). There's a link between us on a smooth gradation although one might have to go back in time to follow the specturm and find that link.

If you're interested in conciousness, though you might want to look at Marvin Minsky's book 'Society of Mind.'

Read it a long time ago and saw him speak (fool around mainly) at the university here in the early 90s. Somehow Minksy doesn't seem that relevant to me anymore. To tell you the truth, I'm not exactly sure where the AI guys fit in with modern neuroscience. That's a good question.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 11:15:59 (EST)
From: Saul
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Depends what u mean by 'fake'
Message:
{Me: I mean that we have this property X which we are trying to define. Why are we trying to define it? Basically because
everyone is so sure that they have it.}

{Jim: I don't follow. Isn't your consciousness self-evident? Do you doubt its existence?}

This is just what I mean, Jim. Something is self evident to you here but what, exactly, is it? And why are you so sure of it lacking any definition [in your case you might have a definition in mind - but most people don't]? I think that the phenomenon that everyone is 100% sure that they are conscious is interesting and means SOMETHING - I just don't know what it does mean.

To answer your question, I do doubt the existence of consciousness.

Saul
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 17:56:51 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Saul
Subject: I'm not with you, Saul
Message:
Saul,

I'm afraid I don't see either a problem with our various words for consciousness nor with our common belief that it exists. Frankly, I can't understand in the least how you can say you doubt its existence. You lost me somewhere, perhaps.
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 02:23:31 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Consider this, premies...
Message:
hi nigel,

first of all, i have to admit that my concentration was constantly being broken by the term 'pappodums' which sounds very much like
'pappadums' one of my favorite indian foods, you know? those little round crackers, sometimes they have peppercorns embedded in them? (is this an allegory of the host in communion??? i think not)

i respect your ability to run a story and keep on track and create a logical argument. but nigel, the realm you are talking about is not bound by the laws of logic. and that's the rub. whether i agree or disagree with you is not the issue here. whether i believe or don't believe that maharaji is the bonafide master of the age is not the issue here. what i see as the issue here is that you are trying to capture the ocean in a dixie cup. it's like you are in outer space looking around for the laws of gravity. if we in fact are dealing with divine beings, then whose rules must they follow, our or theirs? does the phrase paradigm shift ring a bell?

whatever you or i or anyone reading this does with their lives, i wish each of us all the ultimate love and fulfillment. we could argue this until we turn blue (allusion to krishna? no, silly). there is no answer in the realm of intellect to the questions you pose. the leap of faith is required, whichever direction you jump. and i have this gut feeling that we all are our own judges by the divinity within each of us, and not anyone else's, as to which way is the way for us to jump in our leap of faith...i feel like if i am true to myself, my heart, then i will end up where i want to be. if god is god, then there can be many compassionate manifestations to satisfy the individual needs of the devotees, yes?

when i was in high school still living in my parent's home, i was introduced to 'autobiography of a yogi' by paramahansa yognanda.
in it he talked about babaji, the 2000 year old (not mel brooks) eternally youthful yogi who allegedly lives in the himalayas and doesn't come down, but it was said that if you spoke his name in faith he would dispense an immediate blessing. i remember laying on my bed in the middle of the night staring up at the ceiling in the pitch dark room whispering 'babaji' over and over again and getting a hit of a blue-spark-like light and a buzz like someone touching me after rubbing their feet on a carpet over and over again. it would not have happened to me if i had not believed in it, and do you think i gave a shit if anyone else approved or believed what i did? who cared? i was having an undeniable, tactile experience on a very intimate level, from my soul, not my mind. that was the beginning of my search. maybe i shouldn't have gone any further. but here we are now.

i have no retorts, rebukes, rebuttals, refreshments, reruns, or referrals. i can tell you this though. in 1971 i almost died on a highway in ohio and had a pretty incredible experience getting through it. in 1977 i saw maharaji for the first time and when i saw him (camp akiba/poconos) all i could think about was that day on the highway 6 years prior...then he gave that satsang about the birth date and the death date on the gravestones and the dash in between...and i was in the second row and we had direct eye contact and it was like he put a color slide of that day on the highway in my head when he looked at me. it clicked for me at the time. i received knowledge a few months later.

now 20 years later i am hearing all these unsavory things about maharaji. i am not in doubt; rather, i am most certain that some issues have been raised on this site that i must come to terms with. i must either let it all go and chalk it up to his omni-everything, or i must find answers, or just walk. right now, i am in a dialog mode with you and other folks on this site. no cause for a crisis of faith. my ultimate faith is in the formless creator, god if you will. i am confident that this apparent paradox too, shall pass.

old native american prayer:
i am going to follow god
i am going to follow god
i am not coming back
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 02:33:55 (EST)
From: Saul
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Consider this, premies...
Message:
Hey shp. You sound in really good shape to me. I think you'll be fine with or without M.

That native american poem was really beautiful. Saul
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 02:41:47 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Saul
Subject: question
Message:
saul,
where in the world are you?
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 22:29:05 (EST)
From: Saul
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: question
Message:
Chicago at the moment.
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 04:00:20 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Saul
Subject: question
Message:
if you were on the east coast it would be cool to meet and talk live, not just because you dug my post, but because i don't feel animosity or anger from you, just a point of view. i can deal with that. i used to live in des plaines just north of you.
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 02:40:00 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Consider this, premies...
Message:
i have this idea for a movie short:

jesus, buddha, krishna, maharaji, mohammed, moses, babaji, kabir and countless other beings (those 99 for example) who when on earth were apparently at spiritual odds with each other, sitting around a big round table playing pinochle in the clouds. every now and then one of them would look down, hearing all the debates going on among humans, look at each other around the table, shrug, and keep dealing the cards, slowly shaking their heads and busting into grins as they all would catch each other's eye, as harmless little shooting stars would fly across the table and disappear.
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 10:07:21 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Here's another, shp
Message:
Tinkerbell, Goldilocks, Peter Pan and Jiminy Cricket are all sitting around watching t.v. in the drab, smoky living room of a detox centre. Outside, it's drizzling. Seems like it's been raining for weeks. The cricket gets up to change the channel to yet another nature show and the boy, without a word, jumps up and squishes him. He looks over at the two girls, knowing full well that they never liked the little bug anyway and aren't about to squeal on him. Tinkerbell is already blushing -- is there anything that WON'T set her off? -- but Goldilocks is pretending she never noticed. It's gonna take more than squishing a roach to get in my pants, you bad little boy, she's thinking. Peter Pan, secure in the effect he's had despite their efforts to hid the impact, slowly saunters over to the counter and pours himself another cup of coffee. What number's this? he wonders (not that it really matters. He stopped counting weeks ago or was it years? Whenever he first checked into this miserable, overpriced warehouse for broken fools who can afford to feel sorry for themselves together like this. The coffee sucks but at least he doesn't have to watch another of those fucking nature shows. Served the little asshole right!
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 10:28:32 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: ah, glasshopper!
Message:
8>)

you made me laugh....have you considered writing fiction/humor professionally?

i realize that you didn't go to all that trouble just to make me laugh....i can relate to peter though...too much java.
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 10:35:34 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: ah, glasshopper!
Message:
Thanks shp,

No, I wrote it just for you to show. Did you get my point, I wonder?
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 10:59:42 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: pluck the lesson from my post
Message:
i won't shout in caps, so don't you veil your 'points'.
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 11:22:03 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Here's another, shp
Message:
Now that's REALITY! You know what I was thinking? What if Thor and Hercules crashed this game of pinochle? You think Jesus and Krishna would still be grinning? I doubt it. Hercules and Thor would clobber them if they did. Now those were gods, tough shit-kicking warriors, not like the love wimps everybody's so infatuated with nowadays. Ah, those were the days.
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 13:05:48 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Here's another, shp
Message:
how about xena, let's not forget the ladies, the yin, mother nature, gaia.
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 09:56:24 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Consider this, premies...
Message:
shp: Who says that IT isn't within the realm of intellect to understand? Who? The so-called perfect masters, that's who. Think about it: All of the crap that we supposedly 'know' about spiritual things was told to us by those people that 'may' be charlatans. Since when has a 'devotee' realized god and then said those things? Don't use 2000 year old stories to answer; it's got to be someone that is alive right now. It's amazing to me that if there really were 100 Satguru incarnations on this planet, NOT ONE has produced a 'fully realized' devotee. Somehow, I just find it hard to believe that an all-powerful god would have this much trouble producing a SINGLE realized soul, don't you?
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 10:18:38 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Consider this, premies...
Message:
please describe to me what a realized soul looks like, acts like, talks like, smells like, eats, dresses like, etc, so i can recognize one....

i felt realized the moment i discovered that i didn't know shit about how i got here or who/what designed my body, or how in the world my sons squirted out of my wife alive and kicking...

you said: Who says that IT isn't within the realm of intellect to understand?

I SAY. AND I AM HER NOW ALIVE. NO COLLEGE DEGREE, NO CLAIM TO FAME AS BEING ANYONE'S TEACHER, NO 2000 YEAR TIME-DELAY...I SAY I CAN'T GRASP THE UNIVERSE OR THE CREATOR OF IT, IF THERE IS ONE (FOR ALL YOU ATHEISTS AND AGNOSTICS READING) WITH MY INTELLECT. CAN YOU? IF MATTER CANNOT BE CREATED OR DESTROYED BUT ONLY REARRANGED, THEN THAT MEANS THAT THE MOLECULES OUR BODIES
ARE MADE OF WERE HERE SINCE THE BEGINNING (?) AND SO WERE OUR SOULS/ESSENCES. IF CELLS/MOLECULES/ATOMS HAVE MEMORY, THEN MAYBE IF I LISTEN REAL CAREFULLY WITH MY WHOLE ATTENTION, NOT JUST INTELLECT, I CAN TAP INTO THE CONSCIOUSNESS OF MY OWN BEING AND GET ALL THE ANSWERS I NEED WITHOUT FEEDING THE INFORMATION THROUGH MY BRAIN ALONE. WHEN A SPRING BREEZE BLOWS BY ME WITH THE SCENT OF FRESH FLOWERS AND AN APRIL SHOWER, I DON'T NEED TO THINK ABOUT IT OR INTELLECTUALIZE ABOUT IT...AND SO I WANT IT TO BE WITH EVERY BREEZE THAT GOES IN AND OUT OF ME CALLED BREATH THAT ALLOWS ME TO EXIST ON THIS PLANE WE CALL LIFE ON EARTH. THERE, NOW I AM IN ALL CAPS AGAIN, ARE YA HAPPY NOW?

I'VE BEEN MARRIED 16 YEARS, OK? I THOUGHT I HAD A HANDLE ON HOW MEN AND WOMEN CAN COMMUNICATE PAST ALL THE GENDER DIFFERENCES AND JUST VIBE SOUL TO SOUL. GUESS WHAT? AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN. I RESISTED READING THE BOOK MEN ARE FROM MARS AND WOMEN ARE FROM VENUS, UNTIL FINALLY I TOOK A LOOK. AND IT HELPED. VERY NON-INTELLECTUAL DEAL, MALE-FEMALE RELATIONSHIPS, BUT WITHOUT THEM NONE OF US WOULD BE HERE TO BANGS HEADS, EH?
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 10:26:52 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: I won't read that, shp
Message:
shp,

I took one look at those caps and said 'forget it'. If it's 911 you want to call, pick up the phone.
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 10:46:58 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: jim, mike
Subject: same rave, lower case
Message:
for jim, who can't stand all caps, in reply to mike:

please describe to me what a realized soul looks like, acts like, talks like, smells like, eats, dresses like, etc, so i can recognize one....

i felt realized the moment i discovered that i realized i didn't know shit about how i got here or who/what designed my body, or how in the world my sons squirted out of my wife alive and kicking...

you (mike) said: Who says that IT isn't within the realm of intellect to understand?

i say. and i am here now alive, no college degree no claim to fame as being anyone's teacher, no 2000 year time delay...i say that i cannot grasp the universe or the creator of it, if there is one
(for all you atheists and agnostics out there) with my intellect. can you? if matter cannot be created or destroyed but only rearranged, then that means that the molecules our bodies are made of were here since the begining (?) and so were our essences/souls. if cells/molecules/atoms have memory, then maybe if i listen real closely with my whole attention, not just intellect, i can tap into the consciousness of my own being and get all the answers i need without feeding the information through my brain alone. when a spring breeze blows by my nose with the scent of fresh flowers and a morning dew, i don't need to think about it or intellectualize about it...and so i want it to be with every breeze that goes in and out of me called breath that allows me to exist on the plane we call life on earth.

i've been married 16 years. i thought i had a handle on how men and women can communicate past all the gender differences and just vibe soul to soul. guess what? it ain't gonna happen. i resisted reading the book men are from mars and women are from venus, until finally i took a look. and it helped. very non-intellectual deal, male-female relationships, but without them none of us would be here to bang heads, eh?
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 11:17:10 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Mars and Venus (ot)
Message:
Dear shp -
I read that 'Men are from Mars...' book too, and I found it to be sort of disturbing. He has some good points, but he generalizes WAY too much about men and women's differing styles of communication. I know a lot of people who don't fit the patterns he sets out in that book. I'm glad you got some benefit from it, but I just wanted to add this caveat. I think that the book (and all his subsequent ones, which are basically variations on the same theme), could actually detract from communication between men and women if someone swallowed his ideas whole.

Regards,
Katie

P.S. There is a good T-shirt that says 'Men are from Earth, Women are from Earth. Get over it.'
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 11:24:21 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: That book sucks
Message:
The main message of that book is that there's no point for men and women to try to really communicate with one another. Better off avoiding challenging subjects and ideas and just patronizing each other. Plus John whateverhisnameis is a major weenie. Have you ever seen the guy on tv? Come on, now. Sometimes life's subtle and sometimes, like in this case, it isn't.
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 12:04:10 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: That book sucks
Message:
Dear Jim -
I wasn't disagreeing with you, believe me. That's why I wanted to comment on it. However, I guess it must work for somebody because the guy has sold a zillion copies (of that, and of his other books which are basically reworkings of the first book.)
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 14:35:10 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: John Gray - The Lesser
Message:
Katie:

I agree that Gray's research is shoddy, and he over-generalizes. There is a woman at Georgetown who does credible research in this area. I think her name is Deborah Tannen, though I may not have the spelling correct. She seems much less inclined to the kind of generalizations that Gray makes, and I think her latest book is starting to make the case that some women are more like the stereotypical male. There is some role-switching going on that's becoming more and more prevalent.

-Scott
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 13:13:07 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: you didn't like the book. jim
Message:
some of what was said in there worked for me. ya know, there's a little good in the worst of us and a little bad in the best of us...so i got something helpful out of a book, and already we have a crucifixion crew for the author. boy, are you all reactive!

hey jim, do ya know the difference between a lawyer and a carp?
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 13:08:26 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Mars and Venus (ot)
Message:
i don't swallow anything whole... there were just some common threads in there, and it helped. btw, the author is divorced from another tv/author therapist, barbara deangelis (the love counselor)...
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 20:30:18 (EST)
From: Nimrod
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Mars and Venus (ot)
Message:
I came across this qoute on a poster that was put up by the psych dept. of one of the colleges I buy books at. It read
'MEN ARE FROM EARTH. WOMEN ARE FROM EARTH.DEAL WITH IT !
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 20:59:26 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Nimrod
Subject: My sentiments exactly! (nt)
Message:
Hee hee (nt)
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 14:16:08 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: John Gray is worth reading
Message:
Katie:

I don't mean the one who wrote the 'Men Are from...' books. There's another, who teaches at Oxford and Bowling Green, who is parsing the philosophical ideas around liberalism and communitarianism. He's quite clever. It's a shame he and that dope happen to have the same name.

-Scott
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 12:58:59 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Don't celebrate ignorance
Message:
shp,

Your lesson for today is to acknowledge your ignorance but not revel in it. We all go poo but only babies play with the stuff. Once again, at the risk of seeming pedantic (ha ha ha!) I urge you to read a little. Science has much to say about your burning questions.

It's time to progress, shp. Otherwise, you risk losing yourself in Keithland.
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 11:47:05 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Consider this, premies...
Message:
i felt realized the moment i discovered that i didn't know shit about how i got here or who/what designed my body, or how in the world my sons squirted out of my wife alive and kicking...

I felt ignorant when I realized the same thing. I've been reading science books ever since. Now, I feel educated.
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 11:49:45 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: But it is....
Message:
shp: You see, I SAY that we can understand with our intellects. So there it is.... Who is right? Why? Who says? You make some horrific assumptions concerning the intellect's inability to grasp an idea or concept. IF atoms have a memory, then they have an intellect as well (the two kinda go together, no?)

Your point concerning realization is a non-starter with me. Realization/liberation isn't described in ANY of the so-called 'holy texts' as being the 'realization that you don't realize something.' See, the rules are changed to suit the particular guru/trip. IF (and it's a biggie) the books are correct, then he hasn't produced a single realized soul in our lifetime. If he had, he would be equal in stature to M and share the 'glory' with M. It hasn't happened because M hasn't shared the limelight with anyone. NONE of the supposed gurus are sharing their limelight with ANYONE ELSE.... Period! Realizing 'that you don't realize' is NOT realization/liberation, by any standard. Again, who is he to change expectations? What gave him the authority to change the rules? WHO says that ALL of those holy books are full of crap? M, that's who! But, you know what? He USED to promise liberation. He used to promise GOD REALIZATION. He doesn't promise this anymore.... Why not? If it was true then, it should be true now, right?

You say that you receive 'all of the answers you need' inside. Ok, I'll go along for a moment. When I was meditating my buns off, in years past, not a single answer of any import was 'revealed' to me. I had ALL SORTS of questions, but until I engaged my INTELLECT, no answers came, at all. All that meditating did (for me personally) was to stifle my intellect and curiosity. Taken to the extreme, if my experience was 'normal,' then if everyone meditated there would be NO medical science, NO science at all. Sorry, but I've seen science 'cure' more problems in this world than meditation. I'm not a technocrat, either. I know that science has created problems, too. But, science will likely be the vehicle by which answers are found for these problems, as well. Meditation will not fix anything, in and of itself. Meditate all you want, not a single case of typhoid will be cured.

BTW, you don't need to shout at me with caps..... I ain't deef: I hear you just fine! he he he ;-)
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 13:41:15 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: real-eyes-a-shun
Message:
mike,

i keep getting this feeling that words and semantics cloud as well as clarify on this site. i have said over and over that i am not here to convince anybody of anything. i am exploring primarily for myself. on the other hand, most on this site begin with the assumption that i am messed up because i haven't renounced maharaji, and deal with me through that filter, as if i am a drone or a clone. well, i'm not.

understanding i would say, is of the mind/brain
feeling, of the heart
knowing, of the soul/being
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 13:48:34 (EST)
From: jim
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: real-eyes-a-shun
Message:
you're really sounding a lot like keith, shp. I think I'm going to stop talking with you.
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 20:49:06 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: as always
To: Mike
Subject: Ah yes, Mike, but...
Message:
You should maybe ask for examples of TWO realised souls, since there always seems to be one available, ie., the person appointed as next Satguru. For reasons I don't fully understand, the lucky fully-realised candidate is invariably drawn from the present Master's immediate sphere of influence or - better still - family, rather than, say, some humble devotee from a poor family in Lithuania or Mexico who has been meditating real hard but, unfortunately, nobody - least of all the present Perfect Master - has even heard of.
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 10:03:30 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: Ah yes, Mike, but...
Message:
Nigel: Right on the money, as usual :-)

I wish I had possessed the 'guts' to ask those questions, years ago. I think it would have been entirely appropriate to ask a mahatma, 'Hey, can I talk to a realized soul that has received this gift?' 'I really want to know what this is all about, so I want to talk with someone that KNOWS what it's about.' Powerful questions that were only asked, after the fact. I hope others have the guts to ask them BEFORE their involvement. Oh yeah, and not accept some silly response like, 'I became realized, when I realized that I didn't realize...' What a silly, silly, silly response. Hopefully, it would be recognized as such by those asking the questions.
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Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 15:12:26 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: shp
Subject: You're being evasive, shp
Message:
Hi shb,

It makes a refreshing change to hear from a premie with a sense of humour, but your reply is just an 'Argument from Evasion', where a sprinkling of fuzziness, together with a sizeable dollop of magical thinking are called in to banish whatever uncomfortable truths come your way. It looks like a 'path of least resistance' to me.

You offer us this charming image in which Lords past and present sit on a cloud and trade knowing winks. None of them are contemporaries of one another, I notice. Where is Bal Bhagwan Ji? Moses David? The Nigerian Guru Maharaj Ji? Marshall Applewhite? (oops - I forgot. He's on Hale-Bopp, right?)

I assume you do believe that at least some self-styled spiritual teachers are either deluded or wilful deceivers. Yup? - OK, so how do you explain to your kids - if you have any - how to distinguish between a fool and fraud, or a fraud and a Lord? Surely you wouldn't just say 'Take your pick, all Masters are equally valid. They just play by different rules from you and me, and are exempt from the normal conventions of life. They are above the laws of nature; their behaviour and instructions need never be rational (except when fundraising); there is nothing odd about the fact that none of these Masters will compare notes with, or even acknowledge the existence of, the others, even when one of them used to sit at their own breakfast table when they were a child.'

Don't let me put words into your mouth, though. I'm sure you'd come up with something better than that. You could even practice your reply right here.

In my last post I merely suggested some psychological factors by which the false leaders (not Maharaji) perpetuate their 'fake self' myths both to themselves and to their followers. I may be completely off the wall in my analysis, but admit it, there are fakes in the guru business, and the fakes are very successful. So successful, in fact, their followers often look and sound just like premies.

Did you ever see the Heaven's Gate 'farewell' video?

Try again, please.

>Ancient saying of the Wherethefakawi tribe:

'What's the bally use of any other bally button
When your belly bottom button's undone?'
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 04:22:05 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: no evasiveness here
Message:
nigel,

all i have taught my kids even close to spiritual training is the golden rule: 'treat other people the way you want to be treated'.
(not to be interpreted as being a doormat...someone messes with you once, twice, and they don't cut it out, cut 'em loose...there's billions of other folks in the world to vibe with)

as for your evaluation of my reply to you, you are most certainly entitled to it. let's face it, if i don't renounce maharaji, then you believe that i am either deluded and/or a conscious accessory to what you consider a bum trip. on the other hand, i don't fault you for your disenchantment with maharaji. problem is, i need facts and most of what i have gotten so far here is heresay, gossip, he said-she said, and alot of bitterness in general, whether it be founded or unfounded.

i can live with maharaji having a big house, money, a jet, and whatever material plane things he has without questioning him for it....i draw from history and king solomon who was fabulously wealthy, had a harem and yet still was able to be a master of wisdom as recorded. i used to think that a 'spiritual teacher had to be poor, raggedy, etc. alot of us went through that.

i can live with maharaji growing up and going through his changes under the scrutiny of his followers and the media, many of which had preconceived notions of how he should be and what he should do, say, etc. as the 'boy-lord' growing into the man he is ever becoming (much like you and i are different today than yesterday and will change more tomorrow.

i can live with overzealous premies who burnt out or hurt themselves serving him without using common sense.

i can live with his family deserting and renouncing him, and not lose respect for him for that.

i can live with the ever-changing presentation style of maharaji to the world without seeing it as fickle or fake so far.

there are more of these, but i have to cut to the chase...

i cannot live with malicious, overt behavior from anyone that would intentionally hurt someone else without cause, using 'spiritual authority' to gain personal advantage. if it was ever proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that my teacher was directly responsible for or directly involved in such activity, i would continue my search for truth elsewhere.

so nigel, thank you for helping me express myself by confronting without cornering. do you still think i am being evasive?
if you do, please let me know, because it is not my intention.
with patience, we can cut through the static that surrounds this
matter and perhaps see more clearly what it is we are looking at here.
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 10:24:48 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: no evasiveness here
Message:
shp: An interesting post concerning 'what you can accept.' My main bone of contention concerning anything that you said concerning M's lifestyle has to do with EXCESS. I wouldn't 'expect' M to live in rags (especially if he were for real). But, there is a HUGE amount of 'room' between rags and ludicrously opulent. You know what I mean? Using some of the funds to house the 'preacher' has been done for years. I have absolutely no problem with the fact that a person, who spends their life ministering to the community, has a 'decent' home to live and raise a family. That's just plain common decency, as far as I'm concerned. BUT, there is an immeasurable difference between this and the total WASTE of valuable resources for M's personal aggrandizement. His house is an EGO-TRIP incarnate, man. This, by a person that is supposedly giving a 'spiritual' gift. We ain't talkin' about living in 'rags' here, shp. We're talkin' indecency, by a person that is supposed to be decency-incarnate. Do you understand where I'm coming from here?

shp, don't you think that recommending to premies that they drop everything and irresponsibly spend their hard-earned (and much needed) cash to fly to australia to kiss his holy-lotus-feet is hurtful? Don't you think that advising premies that an education is a waste of time is hurtful? Don't you think that recommending (as LOTU) that you should move into an ashram, to really/fully devote themselves to the experience of K, then kicking those same people out on the street when they are no longer profitable is hurtful? I DO! And that is just the tip of the 'hurtful' iceberg, shp. Ask JW, ask Jim, ask ANY ex-ashram premie what they think about this. They will tell you the truth, shp, the WHOLE truth of their personal experience. If you haven't discovered that from JW's postings, for example, then you aren't listening at all (IMHO).
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 12:15:47 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: no evasiveness here
Message:
hi mike,

this post is made in good will and good faith for the purpose of communication and understanding between us. if anything said below is inaccurate based on accurate information you have and can share with me, please let me know. below, your words are not carroted and mine are.

Do you understand where I'm coming from here?

>i think so.

shp, don't you think that recommending to premies that they drop everything and irresponsibly spend their hard-earned (and much needed) cash to fly to australia to kiss his holy-lotus-feet is hurtful?

>no. but i do think that accepting such a recommendation against your own heart and better judgement is hurtful. to do anything irresponsibly has the potential to be hurtful. who and what you kiss is your personal business.

Don't you think that advising premies that an education is a waste of time is hurtful?

>i'd like to see that quote in the context it was said before i answer that question. it would seem couterproductive for him to say that 'education is a waste of time' with your spin because he would be limiting his cash flow that you allege is his major priority...more education would suggest better jobs, better salary, more freedom to travel, etc. it doesn't figure to either side of this matter, so please direct me to the address with that quote in it. are you implying here that he wants his premies barefoot and stupid or something...it doesn't add up.

Don't you think that recommending (as LOTU) that you should move into an ashram, to really/fully devote themselves to the experience of K, then kicking those same people out on the street when they are no longer profitable is hurtful?

>it sounds hurtful the way you describe it, however there are a few parts to your question. having lived in a similar situation for three years (a holy order begun by an alleged reincarnation of st. paul who allegedly was getting messages straight from jesus christ and we all believed it with a passion)...and i walked, so i know the pressures involved when 'recommendations are made' in a power situation involving avowed incarnations of god giving the recommendations. ashram/monastic life had its positives an negatives as all situations do. i actually have to say that i enjoyed the monastic lifestyle at the time. it felt good to live in an environment that supported, protected and encouraged above all my connection to god inside. as for maharaji 'kicking' people out 'onto the street when they (ashrams) are no longer profitable', once again, we have two parts to this: first, the master can close his ashrams fast or slow, they are his ashrams. and if he's the accepted master, then the ashram residents would accept his decision, and look for the lesson in his actions, and hustle to get their lives together outside the ashram...perhaps that is the lesson. perhaps the ashram premies were somehow getting soft on a level and necessity is the mother of invention. 'sudden school' is not new to me and it works. that doesn't mean there's no love there. as for the motive of the closings being lack of profitability, once again i'd need more verification of that being the cause, and the master being the 'evil master-mind' behind it. profitability is not a sin, ya know. money ain't the devil, but the love of money is. we all need it to get along in this world. if there was continuous waste and or/gross financial mismanagement in the ashrams, then closing them asap would have to be considered an intelligent business decision. the sudden dissolution of the ashrams could have been viewed in any number of ways, based on one's faith or lack of it, in the then accepted master.

one day i might be crossing a street with my body in the crosswalk and the light with me, and a vehicle might run the light and nail me. who do i shake my fist at in righteous indignation then?
or do i shake my fist at all? a bird pushes its young out of the nest, hoping (if birds can hope) that they all fly. but some don't...i have picked them up from under trees and buried them myself after trying to nurse them a litte in a shoe box. that's life, mike. i believe a good master prepares his devotee for life. how he does it is a matter of style.

what is the rub here? the sudden ashram closings or the alleged reason why they were closed? or both?

i have sincerely answered your questions to the best of my ability avoiding sarcasm or ridicule of any sort. look forward to hearing from you.
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 12:58:02 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: m vs. education
Message:
dear shp,
The only M quote re education I can recall is:
'This is the knowledge you can't get in college.'
However, there may be more direct quotes that other people will recall.

A few other comments:
- Ashram premies could not live in the ashram and go to school (I know this isn't true for many Christian monasteries - lots of monks, nuns, priests, go to school while living in the monastery).
For example, JW turned down a full scholarship to law school to move into the ashram. Monetarily, this doesn't make sense, as he would have made far more money, and been much more useful to Maharaji's organization if he'd been allowed to go to school. I know several other people who dropped out of college to move into the ashram. They did this because there was heavy pressure from M for single people to move into the ashram.

- I had several non-ashram premie friends who wanted to continue their educations, but didn't do so because it would have precluded going to festivals and/or satsang (for people going to night school). Satsang and festivals (or events, programs, whatever), were supposed to be one of the major priorities in a premie's life.
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 13:08:56 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: P.S.
Message:
Dear shp -
Have you ever looked at Jean-Michel's site? It strikes me as something you'd be interested in, if you haven't seen it already. Here's the link (other people may be interested too):

DLM and EV Background
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 13:12:34 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: no evasiveness here
Message:
shp: Good post, shp. Again, the ex-ashram premies would likely be the best respondants, but I'll do what I can. The real problem I have with your thoughts on the ashram/ashram-premies is that you are opening with the thought that THEY may have been at fault (too soft, look for a lesson, etc). All of this seems to intimate that THEY were somehow in the wrong and M just fixed it up. Even though I was not an ashram resident, I can tell you that there was nothing inherently WRONG with the ashram premies that I knew. They were a constant reminder of what it meant to 'give your all.' I find the thought that M was 'fixing' a broken ashram program (by dumping them out on the streets) as totally repulsive. Even a halfway-house for criminals and drug addicts doesn't treat their 'problem children' with this much disregard.

Do you want to know the truth about why 'I' think he closed the ashrams? I think it was because he was legally liable for whatever happened within his monastic order. This would include financial responsibility, as well. So he just abandoned the whole idea and all those that were 'devoted for life.' You will notice that the residents kept their vow; it was M that broke the contract. If you have a problem with some ashram residents, you fix the offending residents... YOU DON'T throw the baby out with the bathwater. THAT is M's responsibility; you can't turn that over on the residents. I will stop talking about the ashrams, at this point, because I would like someone with the insider view to express themselves, now.

shp, I'm sorry that you feel the need to defend M so heavily. You said that you would look carefully at a 'hurtful' person. Well, I show you some examples of hurt and then you immediately defend them with innuendo. My views are just as valid as yours, in this regard. You have no firsthand knowledge of 'why,' so your rationalizations are not valid. You have to look at the WHOLE banana. He has made promises that he didn't keep, he has claimed to be something that he isn't, he has asked people to devote themselves to him and that he would take care of them (like the lilies of the field). All the while, he has dodged any responsibility for the outcome of ANY of his actions. This isn't HURTFUL to others? Sorry, but I just don't buy the 'lessons of life' rationalization anymore.... He's just-a-man; a very deluded, uncaring and greedy little man that has duped his followers for a very very long time, indeed. You know, he said recently that he doesn't answer his critics.... He's right, he doesn't have to; his apologists do it for him. I really wish that, someday soon, his followers stop apologizing for him and when a question is asked, they turn to him to give THE answer. Let's see how eloquent he becomes, then. Can you say 'quivering bowl of fear-ridden jello' three times, real fast?
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 13:33:06 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Ashrams - ask JW! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 13:39:42 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: JW would be my choice
Message:
Katie: But I didn't want to offend anyone by leaving them out. Thanks for taking the 'heat' off of me, in that regard.... he he he.
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 13:44:25 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: JW would be my choice
Message:
JW was a community coordinator in several places, and also has corresponded with someone who was one of the people close to M when he decided to make that decision and who knows why he made it (she has posted this information on the forum as well.)
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 13:49:54 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: no evasiveness here
Message:
...perhaps that is the lesson. perhaps the ashram premies were somehow getting soft on a level and necessity is the mother of invention. 'sudden school' is not new to me and it works.

OK, let's say M was just giving his devotees a good kick in the pants for their own good when he closed the ashrams. He did so from a rather lofty perch, wouldn't you say? What kind of master retires to his mansion right after throwing his most devout servants out of their own homes? What kind of loving, compassionate message is there in that?

profitability is not a sin, ya know. money ain't the devil, but the love of money is.

You don't think Maharaji loves money? How could someone living his opulent lifestyle not? Explain that to me
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 14:04:32 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: no evasiveness here
Message:
hi jerry,

He did so from a rather lofty perch, wouldn't you say?

master is the loftiest perch.

What kind of master retires to his mansion right after throwing his most devout servants out of their own homes?

ouch! the way you put it requires me to go deeper for an honest response to you.

What kind of loving, compassionate message is there in that?

i don't know yet.

You don't think Maharaji loves money?

no, i think he uses it very elegantly though.

How could someone living his opulent lifestyle not?

a master can be a master in a cave or a castle.

Explain that to me.

i did my best.

and btw, i am nobody's apologist. i am striving to be as straight with you here now in my communications as i can be, seeking information that will benefit me for my soul growth and the growth of those whose lives i touch. this is damn serious business as far as i'm concerned. kidding around is good once in a while, but i am becoming more and more aware of the gravity of the situation for all concerned.
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 16:20:03 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: no evasiveness here
Message:
Shp,

The lofty perch I was talking about was his mansion in Malibu, or wherever it was at the time. I'm sure he slept real cozy in his own bed while his most faithful were scrambling to find a new place to live. I hear he even stuck them with the unpaid bills for the homes they no longer lived in.

Yes, shp, it is a grave situation. When you believe that someone is beyond reproach for years on end, someone you've dedicated yourself to for growth and understanding, and then find yourself questioning that individual's character, that's pretty grave. A lot of year's have been wasted by those who thought M was the cat's meow. I was a 'fringe' premie myself. I have no personal experience of M outside of his stage personna. In a way, that might make it more difficult to think badly of him. On stage, he was impeccable. I never saw him drink. I never saw him cheat on his wife. I never even saw him light up a cigarette. But that's what PAM (People Around Maharaji) are saying he does. Like you, since I've never seen these things, I've got a right to be skeptical. My main beef with Maharaji is that his Knowledge doesn't work, pure and simple, although for a lot of years he was able to convince me that it does, in spite of my own experience telling me that it doesn't. He scammed me for a lot of years. He's good at that. If Knowledge had worked for me, I may still be a premie, disbelieving all the accusations being made on this forum.

But I'll tell you one silly little thing that really gets to me... those gold faucets. You've heard of these, haven't you? The guy's got real gold faucets in his bathroom. I can't fathom how anybody can justify having GOLD FAUCETS in his bathroom. How did they get there? Did he ask for them? Did some teary-eyed premie aching with love for the Lord say 'Oh, we must have gold faucets for the master, nothing else will do'? Why did he accept them if that's the case? Really, aren't we going over the top, here? I guess it sounds like something minor, gold faucets, but I really can't get over how somebody, detached from the world, would want gold faucets. Please don't think I'm silly for bringing up this issue. It really is something to think about. Really.
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 19:39:28 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: no evasiveness here
Message:
jerry:

you said: It really is something to think about. Really.

i agree. that is neither here nor there as to his authenticity and he may be doing it to blow western materialistic minds (lila?).
or he may be greedy gold-loving as you imply. i don't subscribe to the latter at this point.
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 21:59:38 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: no evasiveness here
Message:
...he may be doing it to blow western materialistic minds (lila?).

Shp,

Lila lets you get away with anything. Once a devotee is convinced that the confusing, perplexing, or inconsistent acts of the master is lila, then that master can do anything he wants. His authority becomes totalitarian, never questioned. It's all for the benefit of the devotee, to help free him from his chains of maya, right? That being the case, the only justification for M having gold faucets is if having them somehow advances the growth of his students. If it doesn't do that, he's got no business having them. How many people do you think have grown, spiritually, as a result of M having gold faucets? Have you?
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Date: Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 23:00:37 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: no evasiveness here
Message:
jer,

this is across the kitchen table talk:

let's forget about maharaji for a minute.

i was looking for a 'common denominator' experience, one that would be like the river of my little life meeting the ocean of universal oneness, no more barriers, no more walls. i was on the way to finding it, and receiving knowledge has and continues to aid me in remembering that place and living from there. in a way, i was drowning and knowledge pulled me out of the illusions i was drowning in and provided a way to go inside relatively easily with practice. to this day i stumble and to this day knowledge picks me up and resets me.

now let's remember.

the person who threw me the rope was maharaji. the magnitude of the illusions i was caught in were so great that being freed from them was an extremely intense experience, and the contrast between where i had been and what knowledge showed me was so great that i will never forget. having said all that, do you think i give a rat's ass what the faucets are made of in the home of the man who threw me that rope? i don't care if his toilet seat is 14k gold, brother.

as i said before, the only thing that would seriously trouble me would be if that same man consciously and with malice aforethought abused any of my brother or sister human beings or did harm to them. i have heard things here that suggest such things have happened and have gotten some information that i need to ponder a little, like the ashram/no school thing, and the sudden ashram closings, and amtext if he knew directly how RDS was ripped off, and deca if he knew directly that safety precautions were not taken and people got sick and died...i need to understand these matters deeper, not to rationalize or be an apologist, but to understand. i need to know all these allegations are not just circumstantial things perpetrated by untrustworthy family (in the early days) and untrustworthy assistants, and him being blamed
because its essentially his trip, his service to his master.

there are two sides to every story, even yours.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 10:02:41 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: classic evasion
Message:
as i said before, the only thing that would seriously trouble me would be if that same man consciously and with malice aforethought abused any of my brother or sister human beings or did harm to them.

But that's only on one level, shp. You should also be asking yourself if that SHOULD be the only thing that should 'seriously trouble' you. Anyone with half a brain can see that it isn't. It's just an arbitrary line you've drawn in the sand. And why? Maybe because you think it's safe, that no one will ever have exactly this kind of evidence in exactly the shape and form you want, so you'll never had to deal with the question squarely.

Because even BY this silly standard of yours, Maharaji IS found 'guilty' again and again, yet you won't ACCEPT that evidence. The main example is the most obvious one, of course. He maintained and even reinforced his waning 'divinity' in 1976 not because he believed it to be true but for the money. Mishler was a first hand witness to that fact, having discussed the matter over with Maharaji personally.

But is that evidence good enough for you? No, of course not. You don't WANT it to work. You don't WANT to have to admit that Maharaji's fake.

See, that's yet another question you should always be asking yourself: even WITH whatever calibration you think you've set your scales at, are you weighing things fairly? Is there any point at all where your justice is 'blind'?

If you're not careful, shp, you'll end up sounding like a holocaust denier. They make all these same mistakes.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 14:01:46 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: you're gonna love this one...
Message:
jim,

good afternoon

based on things i have read on this site
(and a lot of sleepless nights lately)
combined with my conscience and intuition
stirred thoroughly in the well of my heart
i cannot in good conscience or good faith
invite anyone to a program
introducing maharaji at this time

my heart goes out to everyone
who was ever ripped off
especially in the name of god

it wasn't your 'tough love' that made me see it
it was the information and the experiences
echoing with the ring of truth inside of me
posted herein that made me feel the way i feel now
i hope you get my message as i got yours
(plus my own inner workings that i trust)

i had a vision-daydream the other day
inbetween posts:

a multitude of fishes
was swimming down a river
toward the entrance to an ocean
just before the entrance to the ocean
there were many people standing with nets
hoisting many fish out of the water
and speaking to them
they were saying:
'i am going to reveal the ocean to you
when i let you go
remember that i showed you this
and bring me tribute'
then they would dump the fish back
into the water to behold the ocean
and give thanks to the one who showed it
to them, each returning to their respective
captors periodically

then there were the fish
who by luck or by grace
had navigated the river to the ocean
and had managed to avoid the nets completely

one day a fish who had been netted
was on his way back to the fisherman who
had netted him to give tribute
and came across a fish who had never
known the inside of a net

they compared notes and you
can grok the rest

i am breathing easier and my heart feels lighter
but there is a long road ahead
may the almighty help us all
but this is the first step:
god helps those who help themselves
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 10:30:19 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: no evasiveness here
Message:
shp: You can't forget about M for even a second because he is THE problem. You say that he 'threw you a rope.' Ok, maybe 'he' did, but it's got a VERY HEAVY ANCHOR attached to it; LET GO before you drown. You can't look this damaging evidence of his misdeeds 'straight on' and not have to admit that something is amiss, can you?

He did NOT reveal any new techniques of meditation to you. There wasn't any metaphysical torch passed in your direction. He didn't empower you with his spirit. He just showed you some old techniques that have been around for a long time. They are old techniques that are taught by ALL of those in the Radhasoami-line. All of those gurus claim to be THE satguru; All have followers that believe them; All are selling the same goods; M's appears to be the most business oriented and profitable, though. If the rope (techniques) work for you, fine, just cut away that anchor (M). It's your very own personal faith that makes the techniques work for you, NOT M! Have you been listening to those on this forum that say they still meditate and enjoy the experience, even while bad-mouthing the supposed 'giver' of those techniques? If he were anything special, this could not/would not be the case. What's wrong with this divine picture?

shp, I do think that it's a bit funny that you can see 'conspiracies' in every yard, but your very own. M and his minions conspire to keep you a slave to his whims and fancies, including gold faucet fixtures and smog-belching aircraft. It isn't lila, it's criminal psychological abuse on a pretty grand scale.

Was this straightforward enough for you?
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 14:21:46 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: read 'you're gonna love...'
Message:
hey mike,

how ya doin?

i just spilled my guts in the previous post and i feel better.
now i am remembering things he said, like we should all be 'immaculate legally' in our business dealings. i was always a goodie-goodie in that respect, but i tried even harder to be totally spotless professionally, not even a little part-time job on the side under the table. i took everything he said to heart and tried to live it.

so my grandma, god rest her soul, used to say to me when i would tell her of my being ripped off when i was younger, 'did you learn anything from the experience?' and of course i would say 'yes'.
then her eyes would twinkle and she would hit me on the shoulder and say 'well, education costs money! remember the lesson, or your money and time will really be wasted!'
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 14:37:07 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: I read it and...
Message:
shp: All I can say is that you've got alot of intestinal fortitude! GOOD ON YA, shp! It isn't alot of fun to find out that you've been duped (especially when the 'duping' is god-related). It wasn't ANY fun, at all, for anyone whose story I've heard here. It sure as heck wasn't any fun for me. When I think of those like JW, I wonder (to myself) how did they survive the 'awakening?' You will find, I believe, some really really STRONG people here. I think some don't even realize how strong they are. In case you haven't noticed, shp, you DO have some friends here, too.

BTW, don't worry about the plethora of opinions that you read concerning the existence or non-existence of god. This is an example of people thinking for themselves and having their very own opinions (and expressing them, too). Wow, what a concept, eh? I figure that you've noticed that Jim, for example, is a pretty strong athiest.... duh.... he he he. You'll also notice that Mickey is NOT, yet somehow they are able to communicate with one another. It's good stuff, stick around!

Additionally, I thought your story in the post above was pretty good. ;-)
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 21:03:59 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: shp: read this
Message:
I'm glad to hear you say you are reconsidering Maharaji's worth as a teacher, shp. You hung in there and have taken a lot of heat on the forum. You believe that growth is the most important thing, and sometimes growth is painful but it's even more painful not to grow ( Caroline Mays would agree, no?) My mind has fried on several occasions trying to assimilate everything on the forum, especially very convincing evidence that God does not exist (at least a creator that created the world and answers our prayers). But it actually feels really good to me to put these beliefs of mine under the light and examine them.

One thing this forum has helped me to do is: It has brought priorities sharply into focus. First of all, humanity has to take precedence over spirituality. There is no spirituality without humanity. Second of all, we really cannot know if there is a God, can we? But I do know that the love that is shared by human beans has real healing power. A good friend of mine just had a hysterectomy and was very frightened. The medical staff blew her away by treating her like a queen, allaying her fears at every turn, holding her hand, surrounding her like a band of angels. Thus, her recovery has been fantastic. It has actually been a healing experience for her to find out she can get her physical & emotional needs met. ANother friend's sister died this week in surgery; the family is mourning together, friends are gathering around the family to show their support and to comfort them. This is what it's all about (IMHO)--loving each other while we're here, in a concrete way, not in some astral abstract way. Life is so short, so short...I have found so much more clarity and so many more reasons to be ALIVE since I left the guru scene behind.

'ANgels don't always have wings..don't you go thinking that they're not around,
Because my favorite angels, my favorite angels, are the ones
With two feet on the ground'--fm a local folk group
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Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 12:10:54 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Before the thread scrolls
Message:
Helen: Your thoughts on humanitarianism coming before spirituality are RIGHT ON THE MONEY! Personally, I think it's a prerequisite to spirituality. If I'm not mistaken, it's our early humanitarianism that drove most (if not all) of us in M's direction in the first place. The spirituality was the icing on the cake, so to speak. THE CAKE was/is our human-ness. I guess it comes down to this (in my book): When we learn how to love each other, then and only then, do we have the slightest idea of how to love something/someone 'greater' than us. The human-ness HAS TO COME FIRST!

ABSOLUTELY RIGHT ON, Helen!
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Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 14:07:47 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Before the thread scrolls
Message:
Thanks for your thoughts Mike. I agree with them, but I have to say that is was not my humanitarianism that drove me to GM. For me, it was some crazy idea that I needed a Guru to get me from Point A (darkness) to Point B (light). I really bought into all that detachment stuff ie 'don't get too attached to each other, now, or anything on this physical plane' and did not value my fellow human beans the way I do now. I should have known better given my Unitarian roots (which I've only come to appreciate in recent years). I had another guru before GM, and also that I lived in a new-agey commune (based on FIndhorn) between Gurus. Humanitarianism was the furthest thing from my mind--I was out for an experience. Maybe I wanted out from life in some weird way because life was too stressful to me back then--who the hell knows.
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Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 17:20:26 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Before the thread scrolls
Message:
Ah, the honesty on this forum is damn refreshing, I have to tell you. I was like you, Helen. I wanted THE EXPERIENCE. I hardly heard what M said about world peace, not that this wasn't a big issue with others, but I was just a miserable sod looking for release from that misery. I was certain that realization of God was that release. That's what M said Knowledge was, so that's why I received it. I never took seriously M's claim that he would establish peace in this world. In fact, I took his claim to mean what some premie recently said it was, that he was going to establish peace in the hearts of those who received Knowledge. In my case, he didn't even do that.
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Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 19:17:33 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Eva Cassidy: To Jerry
Message:
Me too, Jerry. By the way, Jerry, I know you like the BLUES. (I got the 'I got taken, so forsaken, ex-premie blues, Babeee!')Ever hear of Eva Cassidy? She was an amazing singer hee in the DC area who unfortunately died way too oyung of ovarian cancer. She had the best voice of any female singer I've ever heard. Man, she can belt out the blues, baby! People couldn't categorize her because she did everything from folk to rap and in between. ANd she was a sweetheart of a woman. Be glad to make you a tape if you don't have her stuff already
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