Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum III Archive # 31 | |
From: Dec 2, 1998 |
To: Dec 14, 1998 |
Page: 3 Of: 5 |
Sir David -:- We're dog faeces -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 11:26:52 (EST) __Jim -:- 'Life of Brian' outtake -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 11:38:37 (EST) __Scott T. -:- Who's a dogface? -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 13:23:19 (EST) ____Sir David -:- I am -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 02:21:05 (EST) Brian -:- Standard Premie Feedback Form -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 10:10:42 (EST) __Gerry -:- Standard Premie Feedback Form -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 11:03:17 (EST) Jim -:- Follow the money -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 14:54:55 (EST) __huh? -:- Follow the money -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 01:25:47 (EST) __Jim -:- Can someone help here? -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 16:47:05 (EST) ____Mike -:- Can someone help here? -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 17:00:58 (EST) W -:- M - video/audio, maharaji.com -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 08:26:50 (EST) __shp -:- M - video/audio, maharaji.com -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 09:50:50 (EST) __Orlando -:- thank you... -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 10:29:30 (EST) ____Katie -:- thank you... -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 16:41:35 (EST) ______Orlado -:- thank you... -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 17:09:37 (EST) ________Katie -:- thank you... -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 17:30:12 (EST) __________Jim -:- Here's your example, Orlando -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 19:16:42 (EST) ____________Katie -:- Here's your example, Orlando -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 19:35:14 (EST) ______________shp -:- time to air out the place! -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 23:08:25 (EST) ________Jim -:- No, Orlando, no -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 18:31:06 (EST) ______nigel -:- I agree. -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 19:32:30 (EST) ________Jim -:- If we weren't the X-Flies -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 19:55:59 (EST) ________Mike -:- I agree. -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 11:12:33 (EST) __Jim -:- Good work, W! -- Brian -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 15:00:13 (EST) ____W -:- Thank you, Jim -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 02:41:20 (EST) __Jim -:- how to ruin a bad party -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 19:50:52 (EST) ____gerry -:- how to ruin a bad party -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 20:43:00 (EST) ______gerry -:- the dope on maharaji.com -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 21:31:10 (EST) ________W -:- the dope on maharaji.com -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 04:42:38 (EST) ______Mike -:- how to ruin a bad party -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 11:24:09 (EST) ________Katie -:- how to ruin a bad party -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 11:38:18 (EST) ________Gerry -:- how to ruin a bad party -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 12:20:58 (EST) __________Barney -:- Domain Names -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 13:46:09 (EST) ____________web eyes -:- search engine result -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 14:00:30 (EST) ____w -:- ruin a bad party, but, WAIT!!! -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 23:46:34 (EST) Jim -:- Good joke, fat boy! -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 00:37:00 (EST) __Jerry -:- Good joke, fat boy! -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 01:41:28 (EST) __Jethro -:- Dudu -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 04:24:56 (EST) ____Scott T. -:- Dudu -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 10:09:07 (EST) __Nigel -:- Call that a joke? -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 19:19:57 (EST) __Katie -:- Good joke, fat boy! -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 19:51:32 (EST) ____Jim -:- Good joke, fat boy! -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 19:59:46 (EST) ______nigel -:- Spliffmeister Satguru -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 20:13:36 (EST) ________Katie -:- Spliffmeister Satguru -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 20:22:04 (EST) ____Jerry -:- Now that's funny -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 20:20:46 (EST) ______peter -:- special premie re-telling -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 21:19:54 (EST) ________VP -:- special premie re-telling -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 23:07:46 (EST) ________Liz -:- special premie re-telling -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 23:14:18 (EST) PeterH -:- Helloe First Time Here -:- Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 04:51:37 (EST) __Katie -:- Helloe First Time Here -:- Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 14:16:57 (EST) ____Selene -:- Helloe First Time Here -:- Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 15:27:42 (EST) ______AJW -:- Helloe First Time Here -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 06:43:30 (EST) ________Mark Appleman -:- Helloe First Time Here/OT -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 15:42:33 (EST) __________shp -:- hello old friend -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 14:35:13 (EST) ____________Katie -:- I like Mark's Journey too... -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 20:20:21 (EST) ________Gail -:- AJW's Journey Entry really -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 21:00:07 (EST) Brian -:- Revised history pages online -:- Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 04:38:44 (EST) __Jim -:- Excellent! -:- Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 13:00:33 (EST) ____Brian -:- Your suggestions -:- Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 21:45:44 (EST) ______Jim -:- Your suggestions -:- Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 23:56:54 (EST) ________Brian -:- Ally Pally!?!? -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 00:14:09 (EST) __________Jim -:- Ally Pally!?!? -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 00:21:12 (EST) ____Katie -:- Commandments and vows -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 01:56:43 (EST) ______Jerry -:- Commandments and vows -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 03:04:41 (EST) ________Katie -:- Commandments and vows -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 03:18:03 (EST) ________shp -:- Commandments and vows -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 15:30:56 (EST) __________Jerry -:- Commandments and vows -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 19:25:56 (EST) __________Gail -:- I sent you a K package, Jim -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 20:47:34 (EST) __Katie -:- more thanks -:- Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 13:52:51 (EST) ____x -:- more thanks -:- Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 17:21:38 (EST) ____Brian -:- And thank you, Katie -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 00:06:08 (EST) __g's mom -:- history pages are great -:- Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 17:11:42 (EST) ____david m -:- history pages are great -:- Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 18:45:14 (EST) __Nigel -:- Brian & Joe. Wonderful! -:- Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 19:29:46 (EST) __TD -:- Revised history pages online -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 07:42:21 (EST) __JW -:- To Brian and Katie: -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 17:42:41 (EST) ____Katie -:- To Joe, Joy, Jim, Jerry, etc. -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 18:18:45 (EST) ______nigel -:- To Joe, Joy, Jim, Jerry, etc. -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 18:46:32 (EST) ________Katie -:- To Joe, Joy, Jim, Jerry, etc. -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 11:35:53 (EST) ______Jerry -:- I think Mike knows -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 19:18:43 (EST) ________Jim -:- Hey, even better... -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 19:31:40 (EST) __________Helen -:- Three cheers... -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 22:35:51 (EST) ____________Jim -:- Three cheers... -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 22:09:07 (EST) ______________Helen -:- Dawkins -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 23:25:48 (EST) ________________Jim -:- Dawkins -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 01:29:16 (EST) __________________Helen -:- Dawkins -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 07:59:46 (EST) __________________gerry -:- Dawkins -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 20:04:16 (EST) ____________________Jim -:- Dawkins -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 20:49:17 (EST) __Mike -:- Beautiful, Beautiful, Beaut... -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 19:13:32 (EST) JW -:- DECA/MEK -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 15:54:33 (EST) __RT -:- DECA/MEK/1 -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 17:35:36 (EST) ____The Home Chemist -:- MEK aka Lacquer Thinner -:- Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 14:54:47 (EST) ______Katie -:- MEK aka Lacquer Thinner -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 03:26:22 (EST) ________Home Chemist -:- MEK aka Lacquer Thinner -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 14:36:52 (EST) __________Katie -:- MEK aka Lacquer Thinner -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 15:20:45 (EST) ____________Katie -:- More about safety -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 15:33:08 (EST) ______________HC -:- More about safety -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 15:48:00 (EST) ________________Katie -:- More about safety (ot) -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 16:01:15 (EST) ____________Home Chemist -:- Whistle Blowing -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 15:43:21 (EST) ______JW -:- MEK aka Lacquer Thinner -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 00:48:38 (EST) ____srb -:- DECA/MEK/1 -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 01:58:32 (EST) ______Runamoko -:- Marpa/Milarepa -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 14:09:46 (EST) ______JW -:- DECA/MEK/1 -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 00:56:06 (EST) ________bill -:- DECA/MEK/1 -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 01:40:39 (EST) __Katie -:- DECA/MEK -:- Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 18:53:00 (EST) __srb -:- DECA/MEK -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 01:41:33 (EST) ____Joy -:- DECA/MEK -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 13:23:33 (EST) ______bill -:- DECA/MEK -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 01:53:59 (EST) ________Bobby -:- DECA/MEK -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 12:40:25 (EST) __________srb -:- DECA/MEK -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 16:34:16 (EST) ________barney -:- ever see a B-52? -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 01:43:56 (EST) __________srb -:- ever see a B-52? -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 16:28:53 (EST) JW -:- Amtext -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 15:06:24 (EST) __Katie -:- Amtext -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 15:26:27 (EST) ____gerry -:- Amtext -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 15:44:35 (EST) ______Katie -:- Amtext - Gerry -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 18:29:20 (EST) ________Nimrod -:- Amtext - Lucrative for buyers? -:- Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 19:21:19 (EST) __________Katie -:- Amtext - Lucrative for buyers? -:- Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 20:03:17 (EST) ____JW -:- Amtext -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 16:07:23 (EST) __Orlando -:- Amtext-ethics -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 16:01:58 (EST) ____gerry -:- read O, read -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 16:07:52 (EST) ______Mike -:- read O, read -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 16:10:14 (EST) ________JW -:- read O, read -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 16:18:30 (EST) ____JW -:- Amtext-ethics -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 16:09:02 (EST) ______Orlando -:- wanna sell a book? -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 16:20:32 (EST) ________JW -:- wanna sell a book? -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 16:22:36 (EST) ________gerry -:- wanna sell a book? -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 16:26:22 (EST) __________ham -:- wanna sell a book? -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 17:00:21 (EST) ____________gerry -:- wanna sell a book? -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 17:16:18 (EST) ____________Katie -:- wanna sell a book? -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 18:43:16 (EST) ______________Nimrod -:- wanna sell a book? -:- Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 20:50:27 (EST) ________________Katie -:- wanna sell a book? -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 00:07:29 (EST) __________________Katie -:- PS to Nimrod -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 01:14:56 (EST) ________________ham -:- wanna sell a book? -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 13:12:32 (EST) ____________peter -:- wanna sell a book? -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 21:38:23 (EST) __RT -:- Amtext text found in file cab -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 17:54:13 (EST) ____Katie -:- Amtext text found in file cab -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 18:34:32 (EST) ____JW -:- Amtext text found in file cab -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 00:41:50 (EST) ______Nimrod -:- Amtext text found in file cab -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 10:41:51 (EST) ________JW -:- Amtext text found in file cab -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 13:50:06 (EST) __Nimrod -:- Amtext-more answers -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 20:03:53 (EST) ____x -:- Thanks Nimrod -:- Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 20:43:07 (EST) ______Runamok -:- Sex, Lies, and TEXTBOOKS! -:- Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 01:00:23 (EST) ________friend -:- Sex, Lies, and TEXTBOOKS! -:- Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 12:02:34 (EST) __________Nimrod -:- Sex, Lies, and TEXTBOOKS! -:- Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 20:02:45 (EST) ____Selene -:- Amtext-more answers -:- Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 16:13:35 (EST) ______Selene -:- ps -:- Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 17:09:06 (EST) ______Nimrod -:- Glad this helps -:- Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 19:46:50 (EST) ________Selene -:- Glad this helps -:- Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 21:44:30 (EST) __________Nimrod -:- Glad this helps -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 05:41:17 (EST) ____________Mark -:- A defense of Amtext -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 12:32:44 (EST) ______________Selene -:- A defense of Amtext -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 19:33:21 (EST) ______________Nimrod -:- A defense of Amtext -:- Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 23:14:20 (EST) ________________Mark -:- A defense of Amtext -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 15:32:40 (EST) __________________Nimrod -:- Without rancor -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 02:20:30 (EST) ____________________Jim -:- Yes, it was stolen alright -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 10:23:23 (EST) ______________________Nimrod -:- Yes, it was stolen alright -:- Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 20:38:38 (EST) ________________Runamok -:- of Amtext -:- Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 16:10:57 (EST) |
Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 11:26:52 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Everyone Subject: We're dog faeces Message: and that's official. Just read what those enlightened souls on the premie forum are talking about and what the Lord God in human form finds so amusing. Oh I nearly forgot; there's one hundred million homeless children in the world. But don't worry about that dear premies. Just look at Maharaji's picture and play some devotional music. After all, you know what Maharaji thinks about all of that stuff don't you! Best to just ignore it. It's just dogshit. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 11:38:37 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Sir David Subject: 'Life of Brian' outtake Message: [Listen to the premies do a little Bible study on Maharaji's pearls of wisdom}: 'Hi Bruce Thanks for your rendition of the story, No doubt the words are debatable, but the gist seems clear. Seems to me M is indicating that we think that the only way to avoid the crap in this world is not to 'step' in it,while all the time we are examining it, testing it to determine if it's crap or not, and thus immersing ourselves in it..... Also seems to deal with the issue of how compromise can undermine a fundamental understanding of life's goal, a situation that I am very familiar with ! I guess it's really difficult to attain a purity of heart in this cynical and hard life, but at least M inspires and encourages us to that goal. Thanks again for the story, Bruce' Mel Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 13:23:19 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Who's a dogface? Message: David: My theory is that he is trying to be cynical and clever. Essentially he's saying to premies: 'Too late. You're already in it. You never should have gone past the first satsang.' ...secure in the knowledge that they will ascribe an interpretation that is beneficial to his interests, no matter how far they have to stretch. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 02:21:05 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: I am Message: And if I can get up the ex-god's nose, so much the better. But I hear what you say Scott. Maharaji's vague riddles could be construed as almost anything. Your guess is as good as mine. Probably better actually, since I can't be bothered to even take any notice of the pretend Lord's blatherings. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 10:10:42 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Everyone Subject: Standard Premie Feedback Form Message: I've seen this letter so many times that I ought to put a checkbox on the Feedback page allowing it to be sent automatically by non-thinkers. It always starts out with an insightful evaluation of the motives of ex's: Dear Ex's, you seem like a sad lot of winging and complaining old farts. There follows the sage advice offered by those who either never knew the word 'ashram', or never supported Maharaji's greed by self-sacrifice to the Ex-Lord. If you can defer blame from the teacher to the students at the same time, so much the better: OK, so you don't want to be premies anymore. Well move on and get a life!!! Hanging on by venting your anger and casting blame about for your own failings seems utterly pathetic. Now stir in a bit of omniscient understanding of what Maharaji never did or said: Maharaji has never forced you to make the decisions that you made to follow him or to practise Knowlege. Step back a bit now, and pontificate in a fuzzy plural statement of vote-garnering inspiration: We have to take responsiblity for our lives and stop playing the poor victim. Mention the Pope in the same sentence with a fraudulent Lord Of The Universe: Stop blaming Maharaji or the pope or your spouse or whomever! Contrast our behavior and lack of understanding with that of a true devotee: For me, knowledge is a simple way of connecting with the essence of my being. Now slip a bit and show true stupidity by showing the true hierarchy of life as being: Feelings, Words, Actions - in that order (Ya gotta wonder why people are being imprisoned for what they do to victims rather than how they feel about it...): Whether I put Maharaji on a pedestal or not is irrelevant. What matters is what I feel in my heart. It's getting close to video time, so start wrapping it up. Repeat what you already said, but try doing it like you've seen The Big Guy do it: In the end it comes down to a very simple connection with your life, no matter how you find it. If Maharaji helped to make that connection then great. Be thankful! If he did'nt, then move on. Let it be. I don't see any virtue in all this wallowing in negativity. Maybe you can Hypnotize 'em BACK(!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!): Remember the feeling you had in your heart in the beginning? It was real! Follow your heart. Take a deep breath!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Then, leave it unsigned and click on the 'Submit' button. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 11:03:17 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: glyng@techline.com To: Brian Subject: Standard Premie Feedback Form Message: Hilarious, Brian. Excellent deconstruction, too! I think we are moving into a heighten era here in the battle for truth and justice. Since it seems almost a sure thing, from what W posted (great job, BTW) that BM is coming out strong on the net, just as I predicted some time ago, (as he applauds and cheers for himself) perhaps it is time to drop the truth bomb. Any interested party should e-mail me for details. Premies need not apply. The plan I have in mind is a simple one, all can participate, and it will be very effective in countering Goober's attempt at capturing new slaves via the information highway. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 14:54:55 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Follow the money Message: Some funny stuff over on ELK today. One premie's talking about sitting in front of his computer and growing. (Maharaji as gay porn?). And then this announcement. Think of the money! If you average 20 pounds per head (considering those with no money, those getting in cheap AND those who always give a little more to such a great cause), what are we talking? 60,000 x 20 = 1,200,000 pounds? They say the money's needed to defray the costs. Anyone know anything about how much something like this DOES cost? What is it? Renting some space on a satellite for a couple of hours? One hour, maybe? Renting or buying a bunch of satellite dishes? I wonder if they'll at least expense Maharaji's breakfast or something?: 'A unique invitation The first global satellite broadcast event, 13 December 1998 The following is from the EV brochure, 'A Unique Invitation', sent out this week in the UK. (They have not been able to keep pace with the audience size!) A decade ago, the introduction of regular video events had an impact on the lives of thousands of people with Knowledge around the world. On 13 December there will be an opportunity to participate in an innovation that may have an equally important impact. Maharaji has accepted an invitation to speak to people with Knowledge and those aspiring to receive Knowledge around the world via a live global broadcast. For the first time, he will be addressing a world-wide audience simultaneously. The broadcast will be received by more than 60,000 people in 150 locations internationally. All those who have received Knowledge and all who are aspiring to receive Knowledge are invited and welcome to attend the broadcast events in the United Kingdom... Let's take this wonderful opportunity to attend the final event of 1998! ------------------------------------------------------- The following quotes from Maharaji appeared in the invitation: 'It would be a wonderful thing to just down-link all these countries - so many countries could down-link. India could get downlinked. Australia could get downlinked. Africa can get downlinked. Europe can get downlinked, United States can get downlinked and so many can participate in the event happening live. So that's something that's coming. It's being worked upon. And that's very exciting.' - Ivory's Rock Conference Centre - 3 October 1998 'What has been given to you is the power of appreciation. Appreciate. You can do that, you can love, you can feel, you can understand. You can trust. You can know. These are mighty gifts. You cannot buy them anywhere.' - Colorado Springs, 7 July 1998 ----------------------------------------------------- On the practical side, people in the UK are being asked to pre-register, as half the satellite costs have to be paid in advance. The fee to cover the considerable costs of this high-tech event is £25 (pounds) per person - with a £15 concession for unemployed people. EV in the UK also state that, as always, no one will be refused admission due to an inability to make a contribution. Sales counters will be open both before and an hour after the event. Call the National Information Line for more details on venues and timings.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 01:25:47 (EST)
From: huh? Email: None To: Jim Subject: Follow the money Message: guess we didn't have the power to appreciate before. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 16:47:05 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: Can someone help here? Message: Is there anyone out there with the time, knowledge and interest who can check out the pricing for this kind of service so we can see, roughly, roughly, where the anticipated million bucks will go expense-wise? You can get further details about how many cities and where from the ELK 'Around the Planet' page. Thanks, Jim Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 17:00:58 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: Jim Subject: Can someone help here? Message: Jim: I will see if I can get the data. We have some high-speed satellite channels that we use. I'll check the cost for video bandwidth. As a point of reference, voice-quality audio channels (9.6Kbd) cost about $7 (american) per minute on wide-coverage (large footprint) satellites. This is for one-time use and not an extended-time contract. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 08:26:50 (EST)
From: W Email: na To: Everyone Subject: M - video/audio, maharaji.com Message: Warning: Check it out ---- at: www.maharaji.com, click on av/, then click on, renewal_03.rm, or renewal_04.rm, or renewal_nv.rm and last but not to be taken lightly, renewal_s11.rm. We that care about what, Guru Maharaj Ji, was supposed to be all about, need to do what we can to see that the Rugu Maharaj Ji, {Maharaji}, is stoped, and that can only take place by us makeing an effort to make a Guru Maharaj Ji, {in our consciousness}, but, we that can, -------, please do not let a Jones Town, or something less or more happen. It is one thing to Love someone for loveing words and actions, but, it is our responsibility as lovers of love, {premies}, to stop loveing anyone or thing that at anytime, when that one or thing, is no longer being true, as you understand it to be, YES, You, I, need to be true to our self, inside, that true Guru Maharaj Ji, not a changing --- Maharaji/M ..... In the begining was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God. To thy own self be true................. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 09:50:50 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: W Subject: M - video/audio, maharaji.com Message: tried to access the files you mentioned and got gibberish that looked like a computer language or hieroglyphics...any suggestions? or i will ask my 14 yr old son who is a 'puter whiz. can you cut/paste it here? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 10:29:30 (EST)
From: Orlando Email: None To: W Subject: thank you... Message: for demonstrating so clearly that ex-premies too can be grammatically challenged. i promise i will not think less of you for this reason (but maybe you could explain your post a little? i got computer gobbledigook on my screen) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 16:41:35 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Orlando and everyone Subject: thank you... Message: Dear Orlando and everyone else - I can't 'see' whatever is on this site either. I suspect that's because of hardware limitations on my computer, since it's an audio/visual clip. Also, while you're here, I wish you (and everyone) would please try and minimize the grammar/spelling flames? I know you got flamed for it, and I don't think that was right - I haven't seen a correlation between correct use of grammar and correct spelling, and whether a person is a premie or an ex-premie (or a non-premie, for that matter.) Some people here compose their messages on a word processor and use a spell checker, etc. and some prefer to write in a stream of consciousness style. Almost EVERYONE on this site makes spelling mistakes or typos, including me. The problem I have with certain premie posts is NOT grammar and spelling. It is that the posters seem to evade direct questions. I think that some people do this because they don't want to talk about Maharaji or knowledge on the net - understandable, I guess, because Maharaji has been pretty down on the Internet in the past. But it does make their posts sound evasive or vague, which is frustrating. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 17:09:37 (EST)
From: Orlado Email: None To: Katie Subject: thank you... Message: Katie, if you are able to convince everyone around here to abide by the same rules, i swear to you that i will follow these rules. But unfortunately, there are 2 sets of rules: one for premies (behave yourself,be truthful, answer the questions, don't be vague, remember you are a guest(somebody just posted that to me), don't flame for grammar, etc) and one for the the ex & friends (open season on premies). believe me, in the real world, i am a very well behaved man Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 17:30:12 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Orlado Subject: thank you... Message: Dear Orlando - I doubt if I can convince the people on this site to do anything (sheesh!). I was just stating my opinion and maybe some people will listen (the message was not addressed to you only - I hope I made that clear). The part about vagueness and avoiding direct answers was my own opinion. Also, just because other people are rude doesn't mean you have to be. I really try not to be rude or nasty on here (even if someone is rude or nasty to me first), and it has helped me to communicate with people many times. A lot of people who post on here (premies AND ex-premies) are quite angry, hurt, or defensive, and I think that efforts made to defuse these emotions do help. But it's up to you. Regarding the double standard: I know this exists, but that's because this is an ex-premie forum, which is run by and for ex-premies. You or any other premie posting on here are likely to get flak simply because you are a premie. Brian and I wrote a part in the forum introduction that's meant to warn premies about this, and I hope it's helped. Sir David and CD are currently moderating forums in which flaming is not allowed, but most of the premies seem to prefer to post here. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 19:16:42 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Katie Subject: Here's your example, Orlando Message: Regarding the double standard: I know this exists, but that's because this is an ex-premie forum, which is run by and for ex-premies. You or any other premie posting on here are likely to get flak simply because you are a premie. Brian and I wrote a part in the forum introduction that's meant to warn premies about this, and I hope it's helped. Sir David and CD are currently moderating forums in which flaming is not allowed, but most of the premies seem to prefer to post here. Katie, I don't agree that there's anything like a double-standard here. If a premie tells a good joke, it's a good joke. If they ask a good question, it's a good question. They get credit just like anyone here. What's different for them, however, is that they're here to defend a cult and its leader. They get questioned vigorously but no more so than anyone else who posts here with questionable views. Do you think ex's get coddled here? Is that it? That an ex can have some weird idea (like the breath being conscious) but no one takes them to task simply because they're agin' Maharaji? I don't think that for a minute. Ask Bill if he thinks he gets off light with his ideas about consciousness because he happens to be otherwise 'politcally correct'. I'd be surprised if he thought so. Do you? Your intro to the forum warns premies as follows: If you are a current premie, be aware that most of the people who post on the Forum are ex-premies, and that some ex's will be expressing negative feelings towards Maharaji and his organization. If you post pro-Maharaji messages, you may be met with anger or ridicule. Be prepared for this, but don't let it deter you from expressing your own views and feelings here. You're right that pro-Maharaji messages trigger anger and ridicule but that's got nothing to do with who's making them. If an ex starts excusing Maharaji in a way that others here can't accept, he'l usually hear about it exactly the same as if a card-carrying video event attendant did. Ask Bobby. Moreover, when premies DO concede points fairly, they get muchos accolades from people here. Sometime, maybe even too much. Look at how we bent over backward trying to help Keith learn to think and talk like an adult. In the end, I'd say he just wasn't worth it. (Read any of his latest offerings? I have.) It's not our fault that people will try to cover for Maharaji. And it's not a sign of prejudice against them that they get covered in cream pies in the process. Having said all that, it's still undeniably true that people form impressions over time. Personally, I'd have to say that I'd expect the next premie who comes here to be unable to discuss Maharjai fairly just like all the others. Still, we try and are always watchful for signs of a reviving brain. Expecting those signs to be few and far between is just experience informing us. On it's own, it's hardly an indication of a double standard. The real problem here is that Orlando isn't up to the task. So he's trying to blame the whole enterprise. Sad to say, but that's just typical premie behaviour, isn't it? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 19:35:14 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Jim Subject: Here's your example, Orlando Message: Hi Jim - No, I don't think that exes get coddled here. Your examples were correct, and I can certainly think of several other cases in which exes got flamed. In fact, you and I have gotten into it a few times ourselves. I have seen people get attacked for just SAYING that they are premies, though. I'm not just talking about 'vigorous questioning' here, either. The attacks then seem result in defensiveness, and communication goes out the window. If the person was maybe having doubts in the first place, this isn't productive at all (IMHO, of course). What I was trying to explain to Orlando is that this IS an ex-premie forum, run for and by ex-premies, and thus the fact that there appears to be a double standard is just a product of this fact. We don't eliminate or censor posts by premies (as is done elsewhere to ex-premies) but the forum's purpose is to allow ex-premies to express themselves however they see fit. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 23:08:25 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: Katie, Jim, et al Subject: time to air out the place! Message: i laugh when i hear the the fish in the water is blowing bubbles instead of getting into the whole paradoxical question of thirst sunday night gettin' to all of yas? the sun shines on orlando and jim and katie and me the same and we all are still breathing i have nothing to attack or defend i just want to feel love in my life and the warmth of sunlight and the hearts of those who love me i wax poetic and funny on sunday nights hope you all find some enjoyment in it no caps no punctuation but you get the drift and that's what counts i love you all Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 18:31:06 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Orlado Subject: No, Orlando, no Message: But unfortunately, there are 2 sets of rules: one for premies (behave yourself, be truthful, answer the questions, don't be vague, remember you are a guest(somebody just posted that to me), don't flame for grammar, etc) and one for the the ex & friends (open season on premies). No, Orlando, no. No one here gets away with excessive vagueness, evasion or dishonesty. It's just that these shortcomings are usually premies' here. Not always, but usually. Furthermore, when an ex posts like that and gets called on it, they usually rectify the error. Take me, for instance. I've been accused of avoiding questions before. I don't do so intentionally and when someone insists on an answer I always try to comply. Then if they're still not satisfied, try again. If THAT doesn't work it's time to stand back and try to figure out who's misunderstanding whom. (No, I can't think of it ever getting to that point before). I'm just using myslef as an example but it goes for pretty well everyone here. We've already had our closed-mind experience. Enough of that, we want openness. Premies, on the other hand, will do all sorts of weird things here. They'll act like complete idiots, like CD has, and actually pretend to not know what is being talked about. I know CD's fake for a few reasons. One is that he's able, if the mood strikes him, to actually string sentences together like an adult and to even, on a lucky day, make a point in the process. So his normal drivel here isn't the result of an organic disfunction. Plus, he's expressed a couple of times his contempt for the mind and communication. Why even now, on the 'uncensored' premie forum, he's explaining how he'll delete any posts he wants, if he thinks they're too 'negative'. He can do what he wants there, I guess, it's his style here I'm talking about. The other way I know CD's fake and not interested in real discussion is that he never tries to bridge the gaps that form between him and whoever he's talking with. People ask him to explain himself, but he never tries. Never. Read the archives, you'll see. Then there are premies like Mel Bourne. This asshole comes ehre every now and then saying 'black is white'. He once put a bunch of us through a very fruitful exercise by asking for a single quote wherein Maharaji claims some sort of divinity. We gave him all sorts but he never let up. He rejected statements as clear as Maharaji saying 'I am the Supreme Lord in human form' in a number of ways, each more idiotic than the one before. I won't go through his stupid arguments again. Once in a lifetime's enough for me, thanks. Suffice it to say, he was about as sincere as... sorry, a simile escapes me. 'Sincere as Maharaji' perhaps? Read the archives if you're interested. If you have any pride at all you might wince a bit at the abhorrent way your fellow premies conduct themselves in public, away from the vcr. Then there are self-appointed spin doctors like op. Por op, she tries and tries but every appearnce here just makes her look more ridiculous. It's hard covering for a guy like Maharaji, isn't it? Then there are premies like Red Heels who seem to think that meditating is synonymous with letting all the air out of their brain. You're right, it's not spelling, or grammar or even education that counts. But some people seem to think that reverting to a pre-logical state is a preperatory stage for deep immersion in a state of grace. These people are impossible to talk with because they actually cultivate infantilism. Red Heels, despite her two-ply wantoness was like a two year-old in high heels and lipstick. If CD is a faux Gump, Red Heels is ... sorry, can't do it again. Slow day, I guess. Oh, I know, Red Heels is like a cartoon version of Annie, another fake pollyanna. Only she's an x-rated version. In her mind, at least. We've also seen a bunch of fellas who, like you, claim to be good people elsewhere. Guys like Jack Tuff or Bruce Parmentier. I know Jack, have known him for years. He's okay out there 'in the real world', I'm sure. He'll help you move if he can get the truck and he's not too busy that Saturday. He won't rip off any of your stuff in the process. Just a regualr guy, you could say. Here' however, Jack made a total ass of himself. Not once but three or four times. What is it about being a premie that makes one think one can sustain a conversation without candour? Jack (and Bruce, and most premies here) do this weird dance where they start a discussion, get in up to their knees, and then start crying foul running for the shore. In the process they splash everyone around them. What I mean is these guys THINK that they're capable of discussing Maharaji rationally. I bet if you gave them a polygraph and asked them if they coudl there's a fair chance they'd pass. (Well, at least before they came ehre a few times). But get them into an acutal dialogue and it soon becomes apparent that they simply can't do it. They can't stay on topic and have a fair, rational conversation here. Instead, they turn into major jerks, nervously spitting out red herrings, straw men and personal attacks on whomever they're speaking with that are 1,000 per cent divorced from the subject matter. Don't get me wrong. I'm calling them names, sure I am. But I'm doing it because it's their behaviour I'm talking about. Their character is, right now, the subject. These attacks are not collateral or incidental and ad hominem. These guys, on the other hand, will do anything to evade a question they can't handle. I know. I had lunch with Jack and he did it there too. Tried to hide behind obscurity. When that didn't work he tried to change the subject. When that didn't work, he tried to attack my character. Listen, Orlando, like it or not, Maharaji, by his own design, has earned himself the highest, most demanding scrutiny possible. Think about it. How many other people do you know call themselves 'master of perfection' or 'Lord' or let people line up to kiss their feet? How many other people do you know who have promised to bring 'peace to the world'? All of this and a commandment to leave no room for doubt in their minds to boot! No, Maharaji's subject to examination and the premies just can't take it. What they CAN take is a phony, Orwellian world such as that reflected on ELK. Where there are no hard questions. Indeed, even the past there is whatever it needs to be in the present. Premies are simply unable to jump from THAT world to this one. That's the problem. You guys can't be civil and responsive here because, if you were, you'd have to admit too much. Sorry, I guess, but that's the way it is. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 19:32:30 (EST)
From: nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Katie Subject: I agree. Message: Finding fallacy in grammer misprunts spellig vocabulisms and punctuality is a misgiving from the reel isthmus, ie. Talking Bloody Sense. Jean Pierre does it. Orlando does not. Grasp of language is irrelevant. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 19:55:59 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: nigel Subject: If we weren't the X-Flies Message: I'd want to name our band the 'Reel Isthmus'. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 11:12:33 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: nigel Subject: I agree. Message: Nigel: You are right, of course. :-) Apologies to everyone for picking on poor Orlando. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 15:00:13 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: W Subject: Good work, W! -- Brian Message: Hey W! That's great. I got the same classic cult clip on all four but the slide show with the last file is worth the effort. Got any more? Maybe You'd like to send these to Brian or something. But why the repetition (I mean in the clips not in what Maharaji's saying. I KNOW about that repetition.)? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 02:41:20 (EST)
From: W Email: na To: Jim Subject: Thank you, Jim Message: Thank you, Jim: Maybe, the 'RealVideo'/Audio files that had been on the Site, are an indication of what is to come, maybe my discovery and the following disclosure, had {them/him}, pull them down, untill, M-Day, or whatever. The way things had been placed on the Site, 'Maharaji.com', indicates to me that it was not meant for We the people to see, that it was a, crime/work in progress to the final message was polished to do the most impactful harm. P.S. **** I have, 'ALL OF THE VIDEO/AUDIO/CLIPS', I will try to send them to this Site, a.s.a.p.. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 19:50:52 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: W Subject: how to ruin a bad party Message: W, It appears that once you mentioned the page the premies got wind of it and blocked it somehow. At first I could find the video clips there. Now I just get the sound of one hand clapping. So what's this about anyway? Care to tell us? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 20:43:00 (EST)
From: gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: how to ruin a bad party Message: Yeah, I was able to download (but not save) that crap, too. Now all I get is blank page. It's more interesting that way, however. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 21:31:10 (EST)
From: gerry Email: None To: all Subject: the dope on maharaji.com Message: from Internic: Registrant: Alpen Sun (MAHARAJI4-DOM) 5859 Kanan Road Agoura, CA 91301 US Domain Name: MAHARAJI.COM Administrative Contact: West, Leroy (LW1352) golwest@IX.NETCOM.COM 800.393.5724 Technical Contact, Zone Contact: Administration, DNS Dns (NDA5) Hostmaster@APPLIEDTHEORY.COM 315-453-2912 (FAX) 315-453-3052 Billing Contact: Fresco, Jossi (JF5385) jossi@TECHNOLOGIST.COM (561) 9942383 Record last updated on 03-Nov-98. Record created on 24-May-97. Database last updated on 6-Dec-98 05:45:17 EST. Domain servers in listed order: NS1.APPLIEDTHEORY.COM 204.168.28.9 NS2.APPLIEDTHEORY.COM 204.168.16.12 NS3.APPLIEDTHEORY.COM 207.127.101.8 Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 04:42:38 (EST)
From: W Email: na To: gerry Subject: the dope on maharaji.com Message: Well done --- First global broadcast: Well, Video and Audio, {from M/maharaji.com}, was, if but for a short time, passively availible, for all, on the Internet conected Planet. I disclosed the hidden plan, yesterday. Is this to be in the near future, passive as well as LIVE VIDEO CYBER CASTED, {M}, events, - YES - . We have some work ahead of us I think..... can not say more about this at this time. Thank GOD or whatever for our life, as in haveing a Free Will. M, has expressed somethings so beautifully I have cryed tears of joy at the time, yet, when he allows his creatures, ha ha ?, {remember that one}, humans, to needlessly spend money to go to programes at the expence of childeren or them selfs not being taken care of as well as they could be, well.......................... Again, well done. Keep the LIGHT going........ Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 11:24:09 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: gerry Subject: how to ruin a bad party Message: Gerry: I think that everyone missed something.... Since when did M consider himself to be a 'commercial' enterprise? Maharaji.com indicates commercial vice 'org' status.... hmmmmm Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 11:38:18 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Mike Subject: how to ruin a bad party Message: Mike - I'm sure he owns maharaji.org as well. It IS funny that they would start putting up stuff on the .com site. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 12:20:58 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Mike Subject: how to ruin a bad party Message: Mike, I noticed that too. I guess Internic is stricter than the IRS in determining who is for profit or not. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 13:46:09 (EST)
From: Barney Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Domain Names Message: Actually, the MAHARAJI.ORG domain name is also owned by the same people that own .COM. Domain names COM, ORG, NET, etc. are pretty meaningless. I really doubt that Internic validates it as long as you pay the fee. I just read that the record payment for a domain name was 3 million dollars paid by Digitial Equipment Corporation (DEC - not DECA) for www.altavista.com, which is the name of the DEC search engine. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 14:00:30 (EST)
From: web eyes Email: None To: Barney Subject: search engine result Message: When seeking for mharji, Infoseek turns up something called Site Map------ in big blue letters but nothing with m's name or ex premie in easily visible letters. Someone searching for m would slide past that easily till they hit chris dickies Info About Maharaji------ in big blue letters. Can it be something else besides SITE MAP? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 23:46:34 (EST)
From: w Email: na To: Jim Subject: ruin a bad party, but, WAIT!!! Message: Have uploaded 2 of the 4 video clips to you for posting on this Site. My E-mail to you speaks for it self...... Good Luck Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 00:37:00 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Good joke, fat boy! Message: Maharaji made a funny that Bruce reported over on the uncensored premie page: 'Some guys are walking down the street, and they see on the footpath in front of them something brown, moist, shiny...... They step over it, but one of the guys stops and looks down. Then he bends downs for a closer look......... .........Sure looks like dogshit, he announces to his mates. Then he gets down on his knees and takes a whiff... .........Sure smells like dogshit!. He picks up a bit..............sure feels like dogshit! Then ......pause...he lifts his finger up to his mouth...pause....(everyone by now is cracking up with M's graphic rendition).....sure tastes like dogshit!.......... and then he announces, 'BOY, I'M SO GLAD I DIDN'T STEP IN THAT DOGSHIT!!!!!' Wonder what he was talking about? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 01:41:28 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: Good joke, fat boy! Message: When I heard him tell the joke, it wasn't quite as gross. The guy picks up the doggy poo (I find it hard to believe M actually said 'dogshit') and says to everybody, 'Look what I almost stepped in'. One thing I have to give M credit for is that he does know how to tell a joke. He should have been a comedian. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 04:24:56 (EST)
From: Jethro Email: None To: Jim Subject: Dudu Message: He always liked 'shit' jokes. Remember the one about the ladus, and the one about the guy who had 'dudu' on his finger and went to get it cut off? Maybe he tells jokes about dudu because he's full of it. You'de think he would have updated his repotoire....but then why should he...he knows all the lemmings...eer I mean premies will laugh. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 10:09:07 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Jethro Subject: Dudu Message: Jethro: He always liked 'shit' jokes. Scatological humor is one of the characteristics of an adolescent stage of development. Ask Nigel. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 19:19:57 (EST)
From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Jim Subject: Call that a joke? Message: >Here's a joke: Linda McCartney dies and goes to Heaven. She meets St Peter at the gate. He explains the way it works in the angelic domain: 'You get the white robes straight away, and if you behave yourself the wings in six months time, a harp after a year, but it takes a couple of years before you qualify for a halo.' Linda: 'Sounds reasonable - but look! - Isn't that Princess Diana over there? She's got a halo already, and she's only been dead a year ...'' St Peter: 'That's not a halo. It's a steering-wheel.' >Here's another: When I die, I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather. Not screaming in terror like his passengers. >Or this from Spike Milligan: Customer: 'Fish and chips twice, please.' Chippy person: 'Ok, Ok... I heard you the first time..' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 19:51:32 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Jim Subject: Good joke, fat boy! Message: My husband just read this version of Maharaji's joke and informed me that it's almost word for word off an old Cheech and Chong record. Wonder how much time M has spent listening to Cheech and Chong records? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 19:59:46 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Katie Subject: Good joke, fat boy! Message: So you ARE saying that Cheech and Chong were Perfect Masters after all? We argued about this before Katie and you said you didn't know. Now it seems like you've got your ideas but don't want to share them with just anyone. What's with that shit? Eh? (See, Orlando?) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 20:13:36 (EST)
From: nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Jim Subject: Spliffmeister Satguru Message: Nobody but nobody laughs at Cheech and Chong except when stoned out of their boxes (at which point nobody but nobody is funnier than Cheech and Chong). Does anyone remember 'Buster the Body Crab?' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 20:22:04 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: nigel Subject: Spliffmeister Satguru Message: Nigel - the only Cheech and Chong recording I still have is 'Santa Claus and His Old Lady' (on an Xmas compilation). I still think it's funny, too - uh oh. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 20:20:46 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Katie Subject: Now that's funny Message: M's stealing Cheech and Chong's material. Maybe we can get them to sue. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 21:19:54 (EST)
From: peter Email: None To: Jerry Subject: special premie re-telling Message: I'm really surprised that Maharaji would tell this story. It seems to endorse the idea that you can believe what your senses tell you. But I just could not reconcile that idea and Maharaji, so the story immediately re-arranged itself in my brain to a version that was more consistent with what I know of M: Maharaji and some premies are walking down the street, and they see on the footpath in front of them something brown, moist, and shiny. They step over it, but one of the guys stops and looks down. 'Sure looks like dogshit,' he announces to his mates. 'No,' says Maharaji, 'that looks like lotus flowers to me. A bit decomposed, but believe me, this flower has so much power to bring you inner peace.' The premie gets down on his knees and takes a whiff...'ewwww! Are you sure, Maharaji?' 'I told you it was powerful, didn't I? Now you have found that out for yourself.' The premie picks up a bit and says, 'Maharaji, you're right as always...I can feel its power.' Maharaji says, 'If you put it in your mouth you will taste nectar, and that's the most powerful experience of all.' Soon all the premies are hunched down over their prize on the sidewalk as Maharaji stands over them, beaming. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 23:07:46 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: peter Subject: special premie re-telling Message: Peter Ain't it the truth... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 23:14:18 (EST)
From: Liz Email: None To: peter Subject: special premie re-telling Message: This is a joke that Maharaji told at an event in 1997. An Indian living in America was very homesick for his country so he went to the doctor to see what could be done. The good doctor told him to: 'Get a bucket and over the next few weeks put all your ablutions into it ie spit , puke, shit etc until the bucket is full. Then get a towel and place it over your head. When you have done that I want you to tip the bucket over your head and inhale very deeply. Come back and see me in 3 weeks time.' The man thought that this was a very unorthodox treatment, however he decided that it was worth a try. So the man did as he was asked and afterwards made an appointment to see the doctor again. The doctor asked him how he was going and the man replied 'I am very grateful to you as you have cured my homesickness. How did you know that this strange method would work?' The doctor said, 'I simply reminded you of the smells of your homeland' Needless to say, this joke did not raise a huge laugh amongst the 4500 premies at the event. It was a multicultural event and it was pretty obvious to everyone there that it was in very poor taste. At the time I can remember thinking 'how sincere is this guy? Was this the type of joke that a 'perfect master' should be telling?' But stupidly I put those thoughts into the back of my mind and went on believing. It was only as I read posts in this thread that I was reminded. I also recall that the subsequent audiotapes from this event contained no reference to this joke. Another bit of censorship from his Great Magnificence. PS. In all deference to GM I don't recall that he actually used the word 'shit' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 04:51:37 (EST)
From: PeterH Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Helloe First Time Here Message: Hy it's us the premies and non premies from the land of Kiwi's Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 14:16:57 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: PeterH Subject: Helloe First Time Here Message: Welcome to the forum, PeterH. Alos, please forgive my ignorance, but is New Zealand the land of Kiwis? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 15:27:42 (EST)
From: Selene Email: None To: Katie Subject: Helloe First Time Here Message: Don't feel bad Katie, I thought Kiwis was the name of some island in Hawaii or something : ) Hi PeterH. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 06:43:30 (EST)
From: AJW Email: None To: Selene Subject: Helloe First Time Here Message: Hello, Isn't a Kiwi a small, flightless, green fruit with a long beak? AJW Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 15:42:33 (EST)
From: Mark Appleman Email: None To: AJW Subject: Helloe First Time Here/OT Message: thank you for the definitive how it was / how it is 'journey' narrative. I am sure you've done more 'service' in freeing people from this strange Maya of M than you could possibly imagine. Thank you for chronicling the story(partial) of our lives, with tenderness, yet brutal and necessary honesty. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 14:35:13 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: Mark Appleman Subject: hello old friend Message: i remember you we knew each other in miami why am i not identifying myself? i just realized today that i cannot at this time invite folks to hear about maharaji in good conscience give me a little time to come out i'm going through some withdrawl within but i know it's right funny you should show up on this day though Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 20:20:21 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: shp Subject: I like Mark's Journey too... Message: ...not to mention many of the other Journeys, but I thought I'd mention this since you know him. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 21:00:07 (EST)
From: Gail Email: None To: AJW Subject: AJW's Journey Entry really Message: kicks ass. I love it. I read it about five times. It describes the whole trip so well. I bet you have helped lots of people with it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 04:38:44 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Everyone Subject: Revised history pages online Message: I've put the revised history pages online and linked them into the Nuts & Bolts section. Thanks to JW for the time he put into redoing the content, and sorry about the delay in getting them up, JW. Also linked in the loose pages that had been floating and only accessable via the Site News page (Malibu, Mr. Natural, Satpal, etc). I'm going to work on getting the EnjoyingLies.Org stuff online next. I'm still shaking my head over their having ADDED text to people's stories... Nice job picking a site management team, Maharaji. And kudos to Visions International for printing recommendations to premies that they wander around on the Web. It's gotten busy here ever since :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 13:00:33 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Brian Subject: Excellent! Message: Brian, I just read through the history and really want to commend you and JW for this. Excellent work! The narrative is so simple and clear, even a premie, coughing and wincing, turning away even as they read, could follow it. I think it's important, now that you guys have posted the essential story, that people give you feedback on possible errors, ommissions or other improvements. I don't think there'll be many but all the better, really. This is, I guess, the ultimate statement about Maharaji. It was even spooky reading it in that light (kind of like reading Starr's report -- without the sex, though, and in spite of the fact that I think he's a politically opportunistic weenie. There's one hell of a difference proving a politician's been unfaithful and subsequently lied about it and the 'Lord' is just another fake.) I'm not asking you to do anything with these suggetions right off the bat other than save them, consider them and amke whatever changes you think appropriate over time. Okay, here are couple of suggestions: 1) When you report on the change in how Maharaji disseminates k ('after 1983') you write: Maharaji then decided that he would be the only one who could give Knowledge. He still does this, except in rare cases when he cannot get to the Knowledge session. In these cases the full-time instructors are allowed to give Knowledge. I think it's worth noting that the 'transmission' of k was once entirely dependent on the physical touch of a 'great soul', someone both surrendered enough to do the service and appointed to that service by the Lord himself. Only when he or she touched your 'third eye' were you to have been accepted as a life-long love slave. (Never mind the fact that these four techniques are just a small set taken from the inital grab bag Shri Hans picked up from the Radmaroni guru he broke off from). Moreover, Maharaji was emphatic about the fact that learning the techniques any other way was like buying fool's gold. Of course he changed all that. 2) Maharaji once saddled his cult members with five iron-clad commandments: Constantly meditate and remember the Holy Name. Do not put off until tomorrow what you can do today. Always have faith in God. Leave no room for doubt in your mind. Never delay in attending satsang. By these directives he jammed the thought process of thousands of people for years. In fact, he encouraged premies to throw themselves into a process of self-immolation called 'surrender' or 'sacrifice' by which premies virtually tried to eliminate their own personal identities and allow Maharaji, who they beleived to be the spirit within them keeping them alive (an in particualr, breathing) to take over. Some couldn't handle the strain and cracked. There were a number of psychiatric breakdowns and suicides. One particularly ugly incident saw a fellow think that Maharaji had directed him in his dreams to take a shotgun to the ashram where he shot several women. One died, one was paralyzed for life and a few others maimed. Interestingly, Maharaji no longer requires his followers to try to meditate at all times. The only commandment his seems to have maintained is that premies are not to doubt or question him. 3) When you mention the 'holy' status of the 'Holy Family': Maharaji's family began accompanying him on his tours, or touring separately. Collectively known as the Holy Family, his mother, Mata Ji, and brothers, Bal Bhagwan Ji, Bhole Ji, and Raja Ji, were also regarded by premies as incarnations of God, and their pictures were placed on the altars at many ashrams. I think it's important to say that Maharaji himself encouraged the deification of his family. These are just a few ideas. Again, they're not essential. I'm just really grateful to you guys for doing this. Thanks again. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 21:45:44 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Jim Subject: Your suggestions Message: The main purpose of the history pages (as I see it) is to acquaint the unknowing with an overview of the cults documentable history. It can hardly be comprehensive when so much of the cult's history is undocumented by third parties and we have to rely on our own memories and the scraps that we've salvaged from the past. You're going to see ommissions in places, and not everyone will be pleased with any particular page on the site. Your first point (technique changes and the meandering philisophy underlying them) relates more to the possibility that Maharaji may be a fraudulent Satguru. The message would come across that were he to have been the real thing then he never would nave changed the techniques. I don't accept that anyone is the real Satguru, and feel that searching out 'The One' implies that another person is ultimately responsible for me. Were someone to use the text for an article in the press, the part about the technique changes wouldn't be included. The press already KNOWS Maharaji is a fraud. We were the ones who had difficulty coming to terms with that. That he is a BAD guru (philosophically) isn't any more relevant to the history pages than his affairs or drinking - unless it led to relatable and documentable events. He OWNED the plane legally. That's fact. Whether he's a good pilot or a fraud is subjective, as are the reasons for peoples opinions. It isn't history in the same sense. Your second point (the commandments and their impact) is a very good one, and they should be inserted where the text talks about the people who joined the ashrams. As for the shooting, I need real dates and locations - not once this happened somewhere. Can you supply them? Your third point (Maharaji encouraging deification of 'The Holy Family') - Where do you get that? He was born into the cult, he didn't establish it. My view was that those claims allowed everyone to take part after His Nibs was seated on the throne, but I can't see that having been set up by an 8-year-old. What do you know differently? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 23:56:54 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Brian Subject: Your suggestions Message: Brian, I'm completely with you on trying to maintain a somewhat non-controversial factual narrative and also avoiding the implication that a fake guru suggests there must be true ones. However, I think the discrepancy between his ordering us to meditate constantly (as per the commandment) and years later specifically directing otherwise (as per recent satsangs) doesn't necessarily violate either concern. But, no big deal. The shooting happened -- okay, I always mix this up. Was it Gainesville or Tallahassee? Joe knows, I think. I even think I've got an old Divine Times Gail sent me with the follow-up letter to the premies explaining that from here on in no more 'inner agya'. I specifically remember that the first time I ever saw Maharaji, in England '73 (Ally Pally Guru Puja) he said that any one of his family was perfectly able to be the Perfect Master should anything happen to him. There must be lots of times he expressly called them divine. You're asking for quotes and I don't have them. Anybody? Hey, I just thought of something: the court records in India! Wouldn't it be great to know who sued whom and what their briefs and affidavits said if there were any? Anyone got a friend in an India Court Service office? Just kidding -- but does anyone know any of the details that could help us track this stuff down? What city was it in for one thing? Surely someone would have that info, you'd think. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 00:14:09 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Jim Subject: Ally Pally!?!? Message: I specifically remember that the first time I ever saw Maharaji, in England '73 (Ally Pally Guru Puja) Let me get this straight, Jim... You were invited to something called Ally Pally Guru Puja - and you WENT??? Sheeesh! How did you ever stop laughing long enough? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 00:21:12 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Brian Subject: Ally Pally!?!? Message: Yeah, I thought that too when I was typing it. I thought WHO out there is so juvenile as to take a perfectly good historical reference and make fun of the fact that it sounds like a roaring twenties football cheer? But I couldn't think of anyone. Come to think of it, all those Bhole Shris weren't a whole lot better. I wonder what my mother or father thought the one or two times they ever dropped by for satsang. We spend two hours painfully trying to assure them that there's nothing strange about this trip. Menawhile, every speaker starts off by bowing to this altar plastered with pictures of some very sullen Inidan family. Then we all sing this 'I-want-to-be-a-human-sacrifice' song that goes on forever. RThen we all dive bomb the altar but not before shouting out a whole slew of Hari Kari, Hai Karates. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 01:56:43 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Jim Subject: Commandments and vows Message: Dear Jim - Thanks for the refresher course on the five commandments. I can never remember them (wonder why?). It's my recollection that we were taught these commandments in the knowledge session itself, but that we also had to take vows. Is this true? I cannot remember the wording of the vows either (although I do know that one was NOT 'Try it and see if you like it!), plus I mix them up with the commandments. I believe someone posted them a while back - does anyone else remember them (seventies version, that is)? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 03:04:41 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Katie Subject: Commandments and vows Message: I don't know about the seventies but in Nov. 1980 the vows went something like this: 'Oh my Guru Maharaji, I dedicate my life to you. I am weak and I am ignorant. Bring me from darkness into light, from hatred into love. Enlighten me. Uplift me. I vow never to reveal this Knowledge to anyone under any circumstances.' You then left your gift at the altar if you had one. Money was suggested as the 'pratical' gift so I left 20 dollars in a thank you card. At the end of the Knowledge session we were given an 8 1/2' envelope with a satsang in it that started 'Now you are disciples'. It then went on to emphasise that we should be grateful because only by Maharaji's grace was receiving this Knowledge possible. Then we sang Arti and had dinner. All in all it was a pretty heavy experience. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 03:18:03 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Commandments and vows Message: Thanks, Jerry - I honestly don't remember much about my knowledge session in Nov. of 1972 except for the revealing of the techniques (I saw light for the once and only time when the mahatma touched my eyes) and the selection process. I vaguely remember bringing a gift, but at that time I think we were asked to bring flowers or fruit (we were all a lot more innocent back then, including the ashram premies.) I know I took vows but can't remember what I said. I was scared to death during the entire process. I was also very young (16), which added to my fear and confusion. I don't think we got any written material to take home with us, we didn't get dinner, and we didn't sing Arti - we just left the ashram after being congratulated by the ashram residents. I do remember that the experience was kind of a let-down after the build-up it had been given - Seymour's Journeys entry reflects almost exactly what I experienced afterwards. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 15:30:56 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Commandments and vows Message: you forgot to mention: 'i am weak and ignorant and filled with the impurities of this world'...remember? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 19:25:56 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: shp Subject: Commandments and vows Message: I received Knowledge in late 1980, shp. I think the vows you took were more extensive than mine. I don't recall saying 'impurities of this world'. Maybe I did but I don't recall. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 20:47:34 (EST)
From: Gail Email: None To: Jim Subject: I sent you a K package, Jim Message: from 1974. You have the commandments. The vow as I recall went something like this: Oh my Guru Maharaji. I am weak and ignorant and filled with the impurities of this world. I surrender the reins of my life to you. Please take me from darkness to light, from death to immortality. I will never reveal these techniques to anyone for any reason. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 13:52:51 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Brian Subject: more thanks Message: Thanks very much to Joy, RT, LA, and several others who provided pictures to illustrate the history section. And of course, a big thank you to Jean-Michel for letting us 'borrow' pictures from his site! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 17:21:38 (EST)
From: x Email: None To: Katie Subject: more thanks Message: Wow, seeing the whole story lined out from A to Z like that was great. It really puts into perspective all the swings of Rawatts pendulous money cow. I think the way the financial and business aspects were covered really help drive home the point that everything comes down to money and worldliness to Prem Pal Rawatt. Which of course is ironic, since he always used to preach against worldliness(stupid premie word) and maya, etc. Many kudos to JW, Brian, and everybody involved in this latest landmine. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 00:06:08 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Katie Subject: And thank you, Katie Message: Forgot to mention the time that you spent spell-checking and proof-reading it for me. All those vowels and stuff. Big smooch :) As for JM letting us 'borrow' pictures - I like thinking that we stole them. More fun that way somehow... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 17:11:42 (EST)
From: g's mom Email: None To: all Subject: history pages are great Message: That was really impressive. Well done! Can whoever knows how make sure they are linked to search engines so those who might be aspirants can easily read this info? Good work! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 18:45:14 (EST)
From: david m Email: None To: all Subject: history pages are great Message: Hey Guys...... The history pages are rellly good,informative,concise...great work.....peace...dave Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 19:29:46 (EST)
From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Brian Subject: Brian & Joe. Wonderful! Message: Congratulations Brian, Joe et al. The history pages are excellent. (You have done Channel Four's work for them. I suggest you seek a consultancy fee) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 07:42:21 (EST)
From: TD Email: None To: Brian Subject: Revised history pages online Message: Thanks so much Brian and JW, I really appreciate it and add to the others comments by saying how clear and concise it is. The photos go really well with each section. I love that photo of Bhole Ji. Is that a glittery gold suit he's wearing? I just love that. Where can I get my hands on one of those? That'd lighten up my cocktail hour. Jim recommended above that we make comments/suggestions etc re the pages. My suggestions would be in the 'Today' section to mention that the three Ps, Programs, Propogation and Participation have replaced the three S's and are shoved down your throat a lot through specific videos and by the general premie community. Also possibly mentioning that darshan has made a comeback. I attended one in Brisbane in 1996 and one at Amaroo in 1997. At that event he said that Darshan was always second in importance to the Knowledge session. Also perhaps mentioning that there are still particular fundraising projects/accounts on top of general EV fundraising activities and certain instructors like Yoram Weiss still go on tours specifically trying to get money for these individual projects - like Amaroo. Also maybe putting some of those choice bits from some of the EV Constitutions from around the world, although these may need a page of their own, if there are other good ones. I think these are important because in many ways they illustrate how M gets around a lot of the legal hooha and carries on as he always has - very wealthily at the expense of premies, albeit in an outwardly legal way. For example, I would love to see what, if any, charitable organisations are supported by EV and if they have any connection at all with EV or its subsidiaries. The following are extracts from EV Oz's constitution: 2. FUNDAMENTAL OBJECT The Fundamental Object of Elan Vital shall be to promote the principles and teachings of Prem Pal Singh Rawat, and to advance public education in the understanding and realisation of human potential through self-knowledge based upon the teachings of Prem Pal Singh Rawat. 3. AIMS (ii) promote and encourage activities that will benefit the community; (iv) support benevolent and charitable activities and organisations; (v) sponsor tours by speakers and lecturers; (vii) in pursuance of these Aims, it may: (d) support, and receive support from, organisations wherever located which have similar objectives to those of Elan Vital; (e) engage in commercial activity, provided the profits from these are not for the gain of any individual and are applied to Elan Vital's Fundamental Object and Aims; (f) act as a trustee for any other organisation not established for the material gain of individuals; (g) borrow, loan and invest money and solicit donations; 7. INCOME AND PROPERTY The Income and Property of Elan Vital, however derived, shall be applied solely towards the promotion of the Objects and Aims of Elan Vital, and no portion thereof shall be paid or transferred, directly or indirectly, by dividend, bonus or otherwise, to any member of Elan Vital, except as fair remuneration for goods or services rendered or premises leased or out-of-pocket expenses. Once again, thanks so much for all your work! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 17:42:41 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Brian Subject: To Brian and Katie: Message: Thanks Brian and Katie. I really like the format and the pictures work in very well. They really capture history well. They are worth thousands of words. I have always felt that having a concise history on the website permanently is one of the most important functions of this website. Thanks for your work. I know that space is always a consideration, but I with Jim that the commandments should be included (at least as a link) and so should the words to Arti. That dedication language that Jerry quoted is also good. We use to say that in unison sometimes while pranaming after arti. (gag, barf) I just got back from the mountains, so my mind is fresh and here is my recollection of the 5 commandments Katie asked about. We werek told the commandments in our knowledge session, and a printed certificate-like document with the commandments printed on it was given out in the 'knowledge packet.' The 5 commandments were still part of cult dogma at least until I left in 1983. So was Arti. The five commandments: 1. Do not put off until tomorrow what you can do today; 2. Constantly meditate and remember holy name; 3. Never delay in attending satsang; 4. Never leave room for doubt in your mind; 5. Always have faith in god, I guess they are burned into my brain, unfortunately. Obviously, commandments 2 and 4, especially 4, are the essence of the cult. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 18:18:45 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: JW Subject: To Joe, Joy, Jim, Jerry, etc. Message: I will keep a copy of the commandments and Jerry's vows for future addition to the pages - thanks. If anyone has a different version of the vows around (Jerry's may be the only one that was used), please let me know. I know they've been posted on here before, but I neglected to save them. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 18:46:32 (EST)
From: nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Katie Subject: To Joe, Joy, Jim, Jerry, etc. Message: Dear Katie, First, I'm sorry I relegated you to et al in my congrats post when - as every researcher knows - it is the 'et als' who do most of the bloody work (at least the stuff that feels like work). Second, Jerry's Knowledge vows appear all present and correct. These were certainly true for the period from 1977 - 1981. Willi says: can we still be friends? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 11:35:53 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: nigel Subject: To Joe, Joy, Jim, Jerry, etc. Message: Hi Nigel - I certainly don't mind being an et al. (I'm used to it). My old boss and I used to write two author papers a lot (the way to avoid et als.) so my name is plastered all over my own discipline, anyway. So many people cooperated on that history effort that it was truly a group effort. P.S. Tell Willi we can be friends, and I will advise him on his love life if he wants - he sure needs it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 19:18:43 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Katie Subject: I think Mike knows Message: Katie, I think Mike posted, verbatim, some time ago what the vows from the early 70s were. They were more extensive then the vows I took in 1980. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 19:31:40 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Hey, even better... Message: Come to think of it, I think an essential document for mention if you're going to include that stuff is the letter we all used to get in the k sessions. You know, 'Congratulations, you've just received [something or other]. I've got to warn you, though, this knowledge is like an antidote to the poison of your mind. Your mind will fight it to the end. blah blah blah... Have fun and don't kill yourself over this or anything, Your Lord and Master, Maharaji' If someone had the original letter, I'd love to read it again. Hey, come to think of it, didn't someoen post it here abotu six months ago? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 22:35:51 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Katie/Brian/JW/ Jim Subject: Three cheers... Message: for the revised history section. Brings back a lot of memories. Thanks guys for a lot of hard work. The pictures are GREAT, and very clearly written as others have said. I was disappointed not to see mention of the suicides and health hazards of the plane project, but I see the point in not getting too heavy on there, Brian. Good thing I wasn't writing it--it would have had EVIL EVIL EVIL written all over it, which no doubt would be a turn off :) Boy, a gal goes away for the weekend and a lot happens around here. Read the Richard Dawkins book you sent me, Katie. Thought it was great, not at all the scary atheist manifesto I feared. Very elegant writing. Where's Jim? Jim, I Do like Green Eggs & Ham. I like them, like them, Sam I Am. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 22:09:07 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Helen Subject: Three cheers... Message: Helen, Glad you liked the book. So tell me, did it affect your thoughts on the origin and nature of consciousness at all? How? And where, in your opinion, is there still room for God in all this? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 23:25:48 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Jim Subject: Dawkins Message: I just wrote you a huge post in response to your question and then lost my connection to AOL and it all disappeared. Sigh. Yes the book is making me reevaluate. Very interesting how he outlines his argument about the motivating force behind all life being survival. Interesting how he said that Darwin became an atheist because of studying certain insects and how they subject their prey to all kinds of torture: How would a loving God intentionally create such suffering in his 'perfect plan'? FUndamentally though, I am not ready to give up my belief in God which I've had all my life, because of a book (even though the book is brilliant). Whether or not there is a God does not seem to be the important question anyway. The important questions to me are: How do we treat one another, animals, and the earth? How can I use the intelligence, energy, and creativity I have to give something meaningful to my community & and my children? How do I want to be remembered when I die? These are the questions that my religion asks, but they are also philosophical questions that thinking people ask all the time. They are nothing new. I think that I draw strength from my beliefs and that on a practical day to day basis, I need all the strength I can get: 'God please give me strength to play this inane Barbie game with my daughter for 2 more minutes' There are a lot of advantages to me to believe in God. Not ready to give that up just yet, thank you very much. But no doubt the bookwas fascinating and will percolate in my brain. His style is very engaging, I like the way he addresses the reader. Not at all dull, scientific writing. Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 01:29:16 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Helen Subject: Dawkins Message: Helen, I'm gonna tell my mum that you're definitely invited to my birthday party. Thanks for the review. Martin Gardner is kind of renown as the 'father' of the modern skeptic movement. While he accepts that the case against the belief in God far outweighs that for, he claims to believe in God anyway just because he finds it more emotionally satisfying. Dawkins, on the other hand, seems to think that, once adjusted, one can feel just as warm and fuzzy without. Personally, I'm looking forward to his new book, Unweaving the Rainbow, to see how he argues the point at its fullest. Myself? I know I'll never feel the same KIND of comfort I did believing in God. Hopefully, I'm made in such a way that the truth of the matter won't bum me out too bad. And that's about it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 07:59:46 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Jim Subject: Dawkins Message: That's exactly it, and you've summed it up well. Thanks for the info about Gardner. WIll there be a Richard Dawkins birthday party theme? Just don't put any of those mean insects in the goody bags Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 20:04:16 (EST)
From: gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: Dawkins Message: Jim, Don't wait. Unweaving the Rainbow, is out. I saw it at Barnes and Noble. If you can't get a copy locally let me know. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 20:49:17 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: gerry Subject: Dawkins Message: Thanks Gerry, Yeah, I know it's out. We just don't have on the island yet. But it'll be here in a week or so. I can wait. Thanks anyway. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 19:13:32 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: Brian Subject: Beautiful, Beautiful, Beaut... Message: Brian: Absolutely superb presentation. Really well done! THANKS! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 15:54:33 (EST)
From: JW Email: joger02@aol.com To: Everyone Subject: DECA/MEK Message: I also appreciate the information people have been giving about Deca and the conditions premies worked under there. I have a few questions about that. As I said, I was at Deca myself for awhile, but I never actually worked ON the plane, I was a white collar kind of worker. Both bb and RT mentioned 'MEK' and that it was 'used like water,' without appropriate safeguards for the premies who were using it for the Boeing 707 plane project. I think this is important. What is so dangerous about MEK? Did the premies know, at the time they were using it that it was dangerous, or did they only discover that later? Were any safety devices (masks, ventillators, etc.,) provided for the premies, and was this discussed at Deca? Did Deca ever hold 'safety meetings?' (smile). Were there other dangerous chemicals besides MEK that were used? Also, the guy who worked the paint shop who later died? What did he die of? Did someone say liver cancer, or was it something else? How long ago did he die? Was there ever an investigation into the cause of his death? Does anyone know where his family is? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 17:35:36 (EST)
From: RT Email: mmmm To: JW Subject: DECA/MEK/1 Message: JW: MEK methyl ethyl ketone , 2 butanone or ethyl methyl ketone ...is the name from the 6th edition of the Driver's Pocket Guide to Hazardous Material. JJ. Keller & Associates. 800/558-5011. That's all I have, Material Safety Data Sheets are posted in Industry and will tell more. BUT were not posted in 1980 as they are now, in color. Sorry. What is so dangerous about MEK? Did the premies know, at the time they were using it that it was dangerous, or did they only discover that later? Were any safety devices (masks, ventillators, etc.,) Yes I recall the masks, altho perhaps they were not always used. Vents were used, paint room, etc...I can only guess that over service and so over exposure to MEK and Paint(aircraft) to his skin caused death; the guys had white plastic jumpsuits to wear. Did Deca ever hold 'safety meetings?'[I hope so. Don't know.] Were there other dangerous chemicals besides MEK that were used? [don't know] |
Date: Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 14:54:47 (EST)
From: The Home Chemist Email: None To: RT Subject: MEK aka Lacquer Thinner Message: Epoxy and Lacquer Thinner contains MEK. It is an excellent solvent that can remove just about anything that is not completely hardened. Imagine not yet hardened epoxy all over your hands - now, that's mess. Furthermore, MEK usually does little or no damage to the underlying material which include most plastics. It has an incredible rate of evaporation which is very desired in aerospace applications because you don't want residue remaining on or in the product. Unfortunately I have used it many times in many applications. For example, cleaning greasy auto or bike parts, removing wax from x-country skis, removing that permanent price tag label glue. Typically, when I have a stuborn problem I'll start with soap and water then go to isopropyl alcohol then acetone (nail polish remover) and finally MEK. Beyond MEK would be acids, but... While respirators will reduce inhalation, MEK is very easily absorbed by the skin and you know it. You probably need to use special rubber gloves to avoid absorption as latex is most likely permeable to MEK. I knew a guy who worked at Boeing and he was a MEK guy and his exposure caused like a permanent rash on his hands. I believe that I read, a number of years ago, that Boeing was looking into alternatives. Ultimately, the real dangers are liver problems, birth defects, and cancer. My perspective on Premie operations that are staffed by volunteers and managed by people with very little actual industry experience is not a direct maliciousness to the concern of safety, but one of ignorance and the fear of the added burden to cost in terms of time by doing the right thing. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 03:26:22 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: The Home Chemist Subject: MEK aka Lacquer Thinner Message: Dear HC - Sorry to hear about your extensive experience with MEK. I hope you are OK, and will continue to be healthy despite this. You wrote: My perspective on Premie operations that are staffed by volunteers and managed by people with very little actual industry experience is not a direct maliciousness to the concern of safety, but one of ignorance and the fear of the added burden to cost in terms of time by doing the right thing. I agree with this, but I also think that people thought everything would be OK because they were working for the Lord of the Universe. Thus they felt it was OK not to worry about whether things were safe or not. Although I didn't work on DECA, I saw many examples of this type of thinking when I was a premie. Issues to do with safety, legality, ethics, and so forth were ignored if the end result favored Maharaji. Although I can't recall any specific instances, I am sure I did things like this myself, thus can relate to others who did so. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 14:36:52 (EST)
From: Home Chemist Email: None To: Katie Subject: MEK aka Lacquer Thinner Message: Yes, I hope I'm ok. How much do I have to worry? I doubt that my exposure has been as great as industry workers? Yes, as premies we sure did think that everything would be OK, in fact, better than OK. We thought that the Houston Astrodome would take us up to heaven at the far end of the continum. We were a world unto ourselves. We were on a mission for God. We didn't need no stinking badges. We were premies and we were very naive and deluded. Also, there is the folly of youth factor where one tends to believe that they are invincible. Speaking of the folly of youth, what is really sad is the streets kids of Mexico city where they sleep with a rag soaked in gasoline or someother petroleum distallate next to their face. I take it you work in some OSHA type field? While ignorance of chemical exposure is not an excuse, much progress has been made to protect workers and the general public in, say, the last 20 years or maybe the inception of the EPA, wouldn't you say? P.S. I'd post as my normal self, but when I reveal too much personal information I don't out of fear of the WPC Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 15:20:45 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Home Chemist Subject: MEK aka Lacquer Thinner Message: Dear HC - You wrote: Yes, as premies we sure did think that everything would be OK, in fact, better than OK. We thought that the Houston Astrodome would take us up to heaven at the far end of the continum. We were a world unto ourselves. We were on a mission for God. We didn't need no stinking badges. We were premies and we were very naive and deluded. Very well said, and I couldn't agree more. I think premies today are much less like that, which is probably good. Also, there is the folly of youth factor where one tends to believe that they are invincible. Speaking of the folly of youth, what is really sad is the streets kids of Mexico city where they sleep with a rag soaked in gasoline or someother petroleum distallate next to their face. I certainly experienced the 'folly of youth' - sheesh! I'm amazed that I'm still around sometimes. Some of the things I did to get to festivals, satsang, etc. were really stupid. I never was harmed significantly but I know people that were. Regarding Mexico, that's an awful story about the kids in Mexico City. I'm sure you've also heard about the Mexican border towns where US companies move chemical plants so they won't have to follow environmental regulations. The level of harmful chemical exposure in those towns (ditches full of hazardous waste) is terrible. I take it you work in some OSHA type field? While ignorance of chemical exposure is not an excuse, much progress has been made to protect workers and the general public in, say, the last 20 years or maybe the inception of the EPA, wouldn't you say? I have done a lot of lab work as part of various jobs I've had at universities. I do agree that a lot of progress has been made in the past 20 years. One good thing that has happened is that the EPA finally realized that there was a lot of misuse of chemicals going on at universities - mostly because of the vast number of inexperienced people (students, grad students, etc.) using chemicals. The univ. I work at was fined severely by the EPA a few years ago, and thus now has regular safety inspections and mandatory safety training for everyone who is employed there. However, I am not sure if something like the DECA operation would be more highly policed today - it was a relatively small and hidden operation which employed a lot of unpaid and inexperienced workers. As I'm sure you know, there are still many small businesses (farming is the one I am familiar with) who employ migrant workers and get away with NOT following safety regulations unless someone blows the whistle on them. It's possible that the premies themselves would be more aware of safety dangers from chemical exposure, and that would help. By the way, it's OK if you don't want to post as yourself. I think it's pretty safe, but I can certainly understand people's reluctance to do so. I would say that about a third to a half of the people who post here use pseudonyms. All we ask is that people try to stick to the same pseudonym to avoid confusion. Take care, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 15:33:08 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: HC Subject: More about safety Message: Dear HC - I forgot to say that under the current EPA regime of inspecting labs at universities, the person who gets in trouble if there are violations is the professor who is in charge of the lab, even if they were not aware that safety regulations were being violated. Some professors rarely set foot in their own labs, but these safety regs have caused a lot of them to be more concerned about what their grad students and technicians are doing. This naming of an ultimately responsible party would have probably been helpful in increasing safety compliance on the DECA project. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 15:48:00 (EST)
From: HC Email: None To: Katie Subject: More about safety Message: Yeah, I worked at a University. I knew a guy who worked in a lab and he was from California and his thing was being barefoot. Can you imagine being barefoot in a lab. And this guy was working on a Ph.d in molecular biology or something and was trying to go on to Med Skool. Also, he mentioned that someone in his lab used to make Meth in the lab. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 16:01:15 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: HC Subject: More about safety (ot) Message: Unfortunately, I CAN imagine someone going barefoot in the lab (especially a biochemist!) As for drug making in labs (or out of them), I have heard about chemistry students that supplemented their income that way. I worked at a university that was close to a big city, and we used to have to lock our chemical cabinets because people would steal the ingredients for certain drugs (sometimes they'd take a whole row of chemicals because they didn't know which one they wanted!) And we had to chain the scales/balances to the benches or lock them up at all times - those were constantly being stolen by people who wanted to weigh controlled substances. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 15:43:21 (EST)
From: Home Chemist Email: None To: Katie Subject: Whistle Blowing Message: First, the name I usually post under is not my real name either. And from time to time, when I'm posting specific information that I feel could cause me problems I'll post under an obvious bogus name like 'Home Chemist' to avoid any linkage to my usual posting name. None of it is used to avoid the rules of the Forum in vicious attacks on people or other nasty stuff, but I'm just very paranoid and would like to keep my usual posting name free and clear so that I can post 'sincerely'. I try to keep it to a minimum. Besides, I know that the forum moderators can find where I'm coming from and make surmise who I am and I don't mind that you guys can know this information. I'm just alittle nervous about the millions of lurkers and the Premie Police. Second, Whistle Blowing and a big fat lawsuit can change the way somebody does business. And your point about hiring people who are not apt to blow the whistle says it all. And obviously, Premies are going to be the last people to blow the whistle on BM. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 00:48:38 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: The Home Chemist Subject: MEK aka Lacquer Thinner Message: My perspective on Premie operations that are staffed by volunteers and managed by people with very little actual industry experience is not a direct maliciousness to the concern of safety, but one of ignorance and the fear of the added burden to cost in terms of time by doing the right thing. In terms of DECA, it's important to keep in mind that the vast majority of premies called to work on that project had no real industrial experience. Let's face it, the premies were NOT the most skilled group of people in the world. Carpenters and housepainters were called to work on the plane and the entire project was quite make-shift. There were also time pressures, and because we believed Maharaji was god, we thought his grace was running everything anyway, he had a divine plan, and he was taking care of us because he wanted us to surrender our lives to him and we tried to do that. Certainly there wasn't a malicious intent on the part of the premies regarding safety, maybe it was more along the lines of 'callous disregard for others' and I think that is what Maharaji is guilty of. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 01:58:32 (EST)
From: srb Email: None To: RT Subject: DECA/MEK/1 Message: The bulk of the safety stuff came AFTER the 707. We worked for the shiek of united arab emirates. Another customer; Get a load of this, we work making a BAC1011-(a 707 equivalent size-wise) a flying apt from a passenger plane. The guy decides afterwards that he wants something else and gives the plane to his wife. HE then gets a DC-9 and has us make that into a flying apt. His and her very large jets. Leona and Harry helmsley. Halfway through the 707 he decided(prem rawat) that he wanted something else and to fix it up and sell it. That let the air out of a lot of peoples effort there so he decided to keep it. (lila) And after he had it a while he DID sell it. Big deal all the demands for perfect work and our endless hours. In hindu stories, the guru is always portrayed as having the devotees make the ashram here, then say,'tear it down and build it there. Then when thay had done that, 'NO, I wanted it there instead.' and on and on till there was only one devotee left and that was the test/lila to see who was the REAL devotee. (sucker) when you have the buddhist/hindu -no god- you have to achieve enlightenment/bull trip, there is a vast room for this kind of trickery. I AM elevated. YOU must get elevated. It is the purpose of your life. the tm maharishi ended up with the 707. ain't that special. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 14:09:46 (EST)
From: Runamoko Email: None To: srb Subject: Marpa/Milarepa Message: That's the story of Marpa teaching Milarepa, the patron saint of Tibet (more or less). Once it's a story, it make less sense for someone to have to go through it anyway. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 00:56:06 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: srb Subject: DECA/MEK/1 Message: Bill, is that really true? The Maharishi ended up with the 707? I had heard that before, but I thought it was a joke. Really? GOD IS THAT IRONIC!!!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 01:40:39 (EST)
From: bill Email: None To: JW Subject: DECA/MEK/1 Message: I agee, it is wild. from one guy who thought he was the lord to another. I checked in the late eighties with someone who had a mom in fairfield Iowa TM university. Also I called out there and asked about his 707. They said he did have a jet but he never came to Iowa anymore and stayed mostly in europe, India, and his monsterously huge land project in some soullth african country. I dont think my memory is very far off about the figure that mrishi has thousands of square miles of some country down there and the dictator is a TM new ager. A different dictator in southern africa built a life size? replica of st peters church in rome in some kingdom there. The pope has declined to visit the church. I heard there was a -first buy back option- on the 707 if lord mrishi ever decides to sell it. Meaning, they have to let, Hmmm, what was the name of that controlling company? Have a shot at paying the selling price first. Do you remember much about that plane? I do, but it's late. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 18:53:00 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: JW Subject: DECA/MEK Message: JW - I can get you an MSDS (materials safety data sheet) for MEK if you want one. It's pretty nasty stuff - lots of safety precautions. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 01:41:33 (EST)
From: srb Email: None To: JW Subject: DECA/MEK Message: the guy in the plateing shop who died had to work in a room with vats of cyanide. It was a steamy room and I picked up a cup one day and he said 'you will die if you drink using that cup.' He used it for pouring cyanide. a Minimum of 3 people in the painting shop developed severe allergic reactions to the clear coat paint we used and couldn't take the slightest exposure without a reaction so thier jobs were altered. I dont recall at the moment the product name. Other charming chemicals included Toulene, naptha, others, being given rags and mek and told to wash all kinds of aircraft parts. In fact, virtually every part of the plane was washed with mek=methel ethyl keytones. For the 707, the resperators and cartridges were hardly ever changed because spares and fresh cartridges were not on someones priority list. It is not hard to understand why, besides the clamor for more funding, the heads of the whole project were talents fresh from such industry titans as -harmony gardeners- and -rainbow painters- the head illustrator for the faa charts was a former art student, there were no.....well, there were a couple aviation types there. A couple aircraft mechanics, pilots(including me), and thats about it. The rest were culled from the ranks of bhole shri chanters at the events. The genius financiers at the start of deca wrote up the origional contract to buy the 707 in such a way that when they missed a deadline the guy selling the plane could have just kept the money and the plane. This is hush hush of course, at the time, the plane was in ireland and had -borinquen- written on it when it arrived. The new name was -hans dut-N707HD Hans Dut=emporer of the soul. (Just a tad over the top) Turned out that the tail assembly had a real flaw in it and one night m was in the hanger watching the removal of the tail assembly and -whoops!- the dang thing dropped kersplat on the floor. M got in his Mercedes and drove off without a word to us. No telling what he was saying in the security chased limo. The plane was gutted inside and out and all parts were cleaned with well, you know. Being pro's, some crew used yellow masking tape to tape plastic all over the plane and left it on for two months in Miami heat. It took 3 guys 2 weeks to clean off the tape, using-you guessed it! It wasn't me on either end ot the tape fiasco. I remember laughing like hell with a couple other guys at the 10 o clock (pm) break we got for a short while until it was decided that the break was in the way of 'service' there was no satsang of course. We laughed because-well, I started it every time and I am sure the MEK had a hand in it. We were delerious no doubt. we just stopped for meals. Tom Kelley and Mark Alimo fried like hell. I didn't. So did-get this- Micheal Nouri-Mr. Flashdance(the movie) He was sanding in the main floor of the shop for a few days and it was just him and the sandpaper and the ebony wood. I was across thetable from him and I saw he was cooking but I was used to seeing people like that and knew better than to elicit comments from a frying human. I wanted to say 'feel your breath' but I stifled the impulse. He WAS kinda big. You see him in the movie? He has been on the womens channel in tv movies and also other big screen movies. He didn't last at the complex. 3days. It was sweat shop labor and he needed mental relief. I remember Jim Hession in the middle of the shop floor on his knees next to the lord of the universe and showing him something at the desk. He was so very trying to totally take rawat at his word that he was the ultimate but all his effort was in vain because rawats 'testing' was just torture, and a trickery on a unbelievable scale. Jim reffered to him as 'dad'. Which I could never warm up to. enuff for tonight Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 13:23:33 (EST)
From: Joy Email: None To: srb Subject: DECA/MEK Message: Gosh, SRB, your stories are just too funny. I wouldn't be surprised if the real reason the BM didn't want to use the plane was that it probably wasn't safe, having been totally dismantled by armies of untrained non-aerospace workers. You know how all it takes is one screw to come lose for a plane to come tumbling from the skies these days. Don't know if I'd want to fly in such a contraption, even if it was gold plated and ebony-panelled. I think this whole DECA episode is really an important one, and should probably have its own little corner in the site with lots of first-hand stories like this (perhaps linked to its appropriate history page?) (brilliant job on the history pages, JW and Brian!), since nothing illustrates for me the megalomaniacal greed of the BM more than this chapter. I think it's absolutely shocking the extent people went to in trying to create this plaything for the BM, and the thousands of lives affected in the process. This is a subject that should NOT be swept under the carpet and needs to have a full-blown spotlight shown on it for many years to come. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 01:53:59 (EST)
From: bill Email: None To: Joy Subject: DECA/MEK Message: Hi Joy, I don't know why the lord wanted to sell the plane during it's fixing, but I do know that the EPA or FAA had noise rules and those 707 engines were going to have to be replaced in the early eighties. At three am, a plane from the 'secret' CIA base in the center of the airport in miami would take off going to supply the nicaraguans fighting the sandanistas. THAT plane was loud beyond belief. I lived across the street from the complex and it was close to the airport. I had a good time in miami, I wasnt in the ashram and was accepting enough to endure the servitude with a nice delusion of my own. I accepted the story line. There is one of me born every minute I guess. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 12:40:25 (EST)
From: Bobby Email: None To: bill Subject: DECA/MEK Message: Hey Bill, do you know AJ Cohan from the DECA days? How bout an American guy with brown hair with an English wife and into tai ch'i, can't think of his name. They had a couple of kids, one named Mira. They were broke and lived out of a car for awhile, and at another time lived on a farm in Tennessee or North Carolina. I met them in Pennsylvania in 84 or 85. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 16:34:16 (EST)
From: srb Email: None To: Bobby Subject: DECA/MEK Message: Jeeze Bobby, you have me remembering a number of folks that fit part of that profile. Some that lived in the rural soulth, some that lived in thier cars, and nice english women. AJ is familiar, Istill can't put his face on yet but I might get a flashback any time. If you post under some upper top thead, I'll get back to you up there. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 01:43:56 (EST)
From: barney Email: None To: bill Subject: ever see a B-52? Message: I saw a B-52 in the air once. Eight engines belching black smoke. Not sure about the noise. Probably could give a damn about FAA or EPA. Flew in a 707 in '62 or so, as well as later years. Prior to that it was those huge prop planes. Man those were exciting - bumpy and noisy. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 16:28:53 (EST)
From: srb Email: None To: barney Subject: ever see a B-52? Message: Yes indeed. I am a bit of a airborne destruction nut. The military technology fasinated my because of my father and his subscribing to -Aviation week mag.- I don't know if you are aware of this, but the y2k bug is going to disable up to 90% of all that destructive capasity, Amazing. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 15:06:24 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Amtext Message: I thought I would bring this up because Nimrod has been good enough to provide some valuable information about this cult business and I wanted to ask a few more questions for Nimrod or anyone who knows. 1. Nimrod said that the book-buyers are independent contractors and are paid by commission. Nimrod salso said that full-time book buyers might gross $35,000 annually, and part-timers about $15,000. Nimrod, how much is the commission? Is it paid per book? Is it a certain percentage of what Amtext gets from the wholesaler they send the books to (the one in Columbia, Missouri?) This is helpful because it would give us some idea of how much profit the company is making. It seems the overhead is extremely low since the company does not provide benefits, (health and other insurance, pensions, wc, no need to provide office space or support personnel for the book-buyers, etc.) I would imagine the profit ratio is very high. Does Amtext have any employees, besides Chuck Nathan? Are there regional managers, controllers, and stuff like that? 2. As to the 'principals' of Amtext, Chuck Nathan and the rest, how much money do they make? Are they paid large salaries, get bonuses, etc.? Usually in a pyramid scheme like this, those at the top do extremely well, (including Maharaji apparently) because, with 300 buyers, they can take a slice of each one's gross revenues. For the $15,000 you made in earnings, how much in gross revenues would you have to bring in? Did you personally box up and mail the books to the wholesaler, or do you send them to Amtext? What would there be to stop you from going around Amtext and sending the books you collect directly to the wholesaler and being paid directly by them? I would imagine you'd make a lot more money. 3. We have heard that people like Michael Dettmers and other PAM honchos have made lots of money from Amtext and maybe other businesses. Any information on this? 4. Your 'guesstimate' that Maharaji gets $600,000 - $800,000 per year from Amtext (by doing absolutely nothing, by the way, except throwing that party). What do you base that on? Actually, that is less than I would have expected. 5. I think it's amazing that Maharaji gave out those chincy awards, in the order of who brought in the most money. It's clear what he is interested in and what his priorities are, isn't it? 6. Where is the Amtext headquarters located? I assume they have an office somewhere. I would guess Florida, Miami maybe? 7. You say you now work for a 'competitor' of Amtext. How old is that company and how much competition is there in that industry? Do you make about the same at the competitor that you made at Amtext? Does the competitor know that Amtext is a cult business with profits going to a cult leader? Wouldn't they love to know that? Also, do you get much hostility from professors saying the business is unethical? 8. I am VERY interested in what you have to say about the less than savory activities of Amtext's 'management team.' Care to comment more? By the way, are there many other disgruntled former book-buyers of Amtext? 9. Are the premied book-buyers told to keep their mouths shut about Maharaji's involvement in the business? Are premies ever told that Maharaji wants thus and such and that's why something is being done, or not done? Have you ever heard Maharaji discuss any concern about how book buyers are treated, how much they are paid, whether they have benefits, etc.? Thanks Nimrod. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 15:26:27 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Nimrod Subject: Amtext Message: Dear Nimrod - I had one more question that I wanted to ask. You might not want to answer (it might be a trade secret) and it's OK if you can't. How exactly do you buy the books? Do you only go to professors' offices and buy sample copies? Or do book buyers such as yourself also participate in book buybacks from students (buying back used books at the end of the semester?) Or is there some other method? Would appreciate any info you might be able to give. Thanks, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 15:44:35 (EST)
From: gerry Email: None To: Katie Subject: Amtext Message: Hey Katie, Thinkin' about going into business? I'd like to know how it works, too. I DOES sound like a lucrative deal. I'd check in to it if there were no legal or ethical problems with it. It sounds kinda fun, actually. I don't know beans about what it is really all about, though. Can you give me a succinct explanation even I could understand? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 18:29:20 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: gerry Subject: Amtext - Gerry Message: Uh, Gerry, no, I am not thinking about going into the book buying business (my husband is a professor, for one thing, so he might not appreciate it! Plus we both work at the Univ. here. Can you imagine?). I did illustrate a textbook for an old prof of mine, so am interested in the subject. I just wanted to find out if the only book buying they did was this one-on-one thing where they go to professor's offices. It just doesn't seem as if that would be very lucrative. I know somebody also buys all the unwanted books from the students at the end of the year. (In fact, some students make money by stealing books from other students and selling them back. They usually do this right before finals, leaving the people who were ripped off in the lurch.) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 19:21:19 (EST)
From: Nimrod Email: None To: Katie Subject: Amtext - Lucrative for buyers? Message: I don't know what your husband teaches or at what level-introductory or more advanced,but trust me on this-if you're teaching at the introductory level,especially in subjects like intro level psych or math-then you're probably receiving a shit load of complimentary desk copies from publishers hoping that you'll adopt their particular book for your course. However, there are currently forces acting against this business that are making it less and less lucrative. 1: computers and the net playing an increasing role in the educational process has meant a somewhat diminishing role for books.The fact that publishers have in many cases priced these books to a point where many students can't afford them hasn't helped and many teachers are looking for options. 2:mergers and acquisitions have resulted in fewer publishing companies and thus less competition and its become easier for these companies to therefore cut down on their expenses and send out fewer complimentary copies. 3:government cutbacks has resulted in fewer teachers to send books to. As a result Amtext has been researching other business and investment opportunities , and so am I. However for those buyers who started their businesses at the beginning when Amtext first started-back in the days of the ashrams- for many such buyers the business still remains lucrative.Barbara and Shawn Brogan who are the leading buyers for Amtext and also part of its management team(Iwould say that along with Chuck Nathan-the three of them are the chief head- f**king artists in the company) currently produce a volume of $700,000.They 're way ahead of anyone else among the premie buyers , but thre are a few others producing volumes between 3-$500,000. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 20:03:17 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Nimrod Subject: Amtext - Lucrative for buyers? Message: Hi Nimrod - thanks much for the information. My husband doesn't teach at all (except for some adult education which doesn't require texts), but we know people that do. They don't receive all that many sample copies because our field is fairly specialized. I can see where someone who is teaching a first year course in a general subject would receive more books than they could deal with - never really though about this before. By the way, I definitely agree with your 1, 2, and 3. It's been tough for people in academia lately: students, professors, and support staff as well. I guess this probably applies to book buyers as well. Thanks, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 16:07:23 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Katie Subject: Amtext Message: Good question, Katie. At least in the early days, when I lived with people in the ashram who were book buyers, they went to professors' offices and bought the 'sample' books they get in the mail from them. They would offer as little as possible like .50 or $1.00 for a $15.00 book. Then they would collect the books all together, box them up and send them to the wholesaler, which sent them a check. One of the questions I had for Nimrod is how Amtext has become the 'middleman' in all of this, and how they keep the buyers from going directly to the wholesaler. I remember one ashram premie telling me that sometimes professors would yell and them, throw them out of their offices, etc., because they thought it was unethical to sell as used a book that was never sold in the first place. But others were happy to get the money and clear their shelves of the books. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 16:01:58 (EST)
From: Orlando Email: None To: JW Subject: Amtext-ethics Message: if the work is so unethical, why does Nimrod continue to do the job elsewhere?? there are at least 5 competitors of Amtext in the US. the book buyers make very good money (ask Nimrod how much HE was making!) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 16:07:52 (EST)
From: gerry Email: None To: Orlando Subject: read O, read Message: I don't think the business in and of itself is unethical, but then I really don't understand it. It has never been fully explained here, to my knowledge. I think it involves the buying and reselling of text books. No problem there. Where the ethical problem comes in, from what I gather, is that the money from Amtext is syphoned off to M, who is the main beneficiary. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like a front. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 16:10:14 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: gerry Subject: read O, read Message: Gerry: It would also mean that he has an 'income.' I wonder if it's reported to the IRS that way. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 16:18:30 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Mike Subject: read O, read Message: Mike, this is speculation, but I think the money is probably labeled as a 'gift.' One of the big loopholes in the IRS Code is that 'gifts' are not taxable because they are not considered income. But this would mean that Amtext would have to pay taxes on the money FIRST, which is a big hit, probably about 50% for corporate taxes. It would certainly be more lucrative, I mean Amtext could give MORE money if it could 'pay' Maharaji pre-tax and label the money an expense. But them M would have to pay income taxes on it, and he might be in a very high tax bracket, even with the Amtext money alone, if Nimrod is right about the $600-800 thousand annual 'gifts' or whatever they are. But here's a suggestion for the IRS. How much of a 'service' does M do for Amtext, in the sense that just being the 'master' the premie/devotee book buyers are willing to work harder to make more money for the company? If this were true, the 'gift' might have to be considered compensation for services rendered. I mean, it's not as if he has NO connection to Amtext, other than getting money, right? Just a thought. IRS, are you listening? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 16:09:02 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Orlando Subject: Amtext-ethics Message: Twist, twist twist, Orlando. I never said the work was unethical, but some people think it is, and I wondered if professors ever say that. By the way, Orlando, how do YOU know so much about Amtext, hmmm? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 16:20:32 (EST)
From: Orlando Email: None To: JW Subject: wanna sell a book? Message: now i understand, if a premie does it, it's gotta be a front and it's gotta be unethical (some people did imply this in previous posts, JW) if it is an ex, god bless his soul, it surely can't be unethical. double standards again Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 16:22:36 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Orlando Subject: wanna sell a book? Message: Oh, Orlando, you're so silly! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 16:26:22 (EST)
From: gerry Email: None To: Orlando Subject: wanna sell a book? Message: Since I said the word 'front' may I reply to this? I think it's fine for anyone to make a legitimate living--no problem there. If indeed,as it has been suggested, a percentage of the Amtext income goes to M, then yes it would be a front. How can you see it any other way? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 17:00:21 (EST)
From: ham Email: None To: gerry Subject: wanna sell a book? Message: I thought the ethical side of it related to the non-payment of rights to the authors, since the the original books were sent out as promotional material to lecturers but resold without any payments to them? Orlando, I originally thought you were just a boring pain of an attitude problem, but having you around is also kind of amusing. Keep up the good work. Just remember to stay in the name and not get too agitated. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 17:16:18 (EST)
From: gerry Email: None To: ham Subject: wanna sell a book? Message: I thought the ethical side of it related to the non-payment of rights to the authors, since the the original books were sent out as promotional material to lecturers but resold without any payments to them? Ah! So there it is--the catch. Scrap that idea. Thanks, hamzen. I agree with your assessment. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 18:43:16 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: ham Subject: wanna sell a book? Message: I thought the ethical side of it related to the non-payment of rights to the authors, since the the original books were sent out as promotional material to lecturers but resold without any payments to them? Hamzen - you got it right again. THIS is what I find offensive about the whole process (I hope I'm not offending Nimrod here - I know he/she has to make a living too). Some people have said that textbook publishers make so much money, and the authors so relatively little, that it doesn't matter, but it still irritates me a bit. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 20:50:27 (EST)
From: Nimrod Email: None To: Katie Subject: wanna sell a book? Message: Don't worry Katie, you're not offending me.I've had no moral qualms about the business in and of itself(these are with Amtext, not the business). Now here is another side to the issue of this business ripping off publishers and authors, as expressed by a university professor in the Oct. 4,1985 issue of 'Publishers Weekly' 'This is good business for publisher and author,even if I decide not to adopt the book. For the cost of a single copy mailed...both have had a serious hearing.If the book is kept around, the name of publisher and author will stir in my consciousness from time to time.If I sell the book, both will reach another audience.Though they may miss some money from that used-book sale, they will reach another customer, who may in fact, return as reader repeatedly over half a century.That's a cost effective ad.' Now the vast majority of used textbooks sold are by students to other students.I would say the sale of complimentary copies only accounts for 3% of the total market at the most.Would you prevent students from selling their books because they're depriving publishers and authors of income? Just wanted you to hear the other side of the story. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 00:07:29 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Nimrod Subject: wanna sell a book? Message: Thanks, Nimrod - I am glad that I didn't offend you. That's an good justification, and it's one I haven't heard before from premies who support Amtext (we have discussed this issue several times on the forum.) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 01:14:56 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Nimrod Subject: PS to Nimrod Message: Hi again, Nimrod. I talked to my husband, the college professor, and he doesn't think book buying is unethical, since the books will go to waste if the profs don't use them. I apologize for my doubts about this, but, again, your explanation of the rationale behind it was helpful, and I am glad I got to hear it. Thanks for going to all the trouble to answer all our questions. (BTW, I am not sure it is ethical - or even legal - for the professors to accept money for the books, but that has nothing to do with you!) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 13:12:32 (EST)
From: ham Email: None To: Nimrod Subject: wanna sell a book? Message: Thanks Nimrod, that makes sense to me. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 21:38:23 (EST)
From: peter Email: None To: ham Subject: wanna sell a book? Message: I don't see any big ethical dilemma. If the re-sale of free samples seriously cuts into an author's royalties (and the publisher's profits), they weren't making squat anyway. I have more of a problem with those free samples sitting unused on teachers' shelves than I do with a minor kink in the chain of profit. On the other hand, I have a big ethical objection if Amtext and/or Maharaji is successfully dodging paying taxes on this money. Not that we have any information that suggests that, it just somehow seems likely to me. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 17:54:13 (EST)
From: RT Email: mmmmmmmm To: JW Subject: Amtext text found in file cab Message: Lucky day for JW.. Looking for the MEK data for you and I found another book I've wondering about for weeks... AND NOW, ladies and gentle meditators, RT is pleased to present...an AMTEXT tip guide. 24 pages, 15 sections. 4TH GEN COPY, READABLE NOT SCANABLE. Available free to the 9th caller. Email BRIAN or KATIE and he will email your address to me. I have my reasons for being quiet, so don't ask! JW gets first dibs! Section 5: Is selling ethical? 'this is a question that must be approached with a great deal of tact.' 4 BS answers follows. Go figure. RT cleaning out the files is fun for us and bad for FATGURU! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 18:34:32 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: RT Subject: Amtext text found in file cab Message: Hi RT - Send me a copy and I will type it out for you. You can mail it to JW first if you'd like, then he can send it to me. Thanks, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 00:41:50 (EST)
From: JW Email: joger02@aol.com To: RT Subject: Amtext text found in file cab Message: RT: I would love to see a copy of that document. You can e-mail me (I've included by address) and I can send you may address. Thanks so much. JW Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 10:41:51 (EST)
From: Nimrod Email: jfb@netc.net To: JW Subject: Amtext text found in file cab Message: If you're interested in Amtext documents please let me know. I have one of 25 pgs entitled - 'The Desk Copy Issue-Ethical, Legal and Educational Concerns ' and a 10 page 'how to ' intro for new buyers. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 13:50:06 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Nimrod Subject: Amtext text found in file cab Message: Nimrod, Thanks. I would like to see that stuff. I've sent you an e-mail. Thanks again for all the good information you are providing. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 20:03:53 (EST)
From: Nimrod Email: None To: JW Subject: Amtext-more answers Message: Question 1: Yes, the commission is paid on a per book basis and it is 65%for a book that checks in 'new' and 30% for a book that checks in 'used'.So, lets say I'm buying a book that has a value in my buyers guide of $10, what Iwill be paid for that book is double the guide value plus the commission.What I would pay the teacher for that book is anywhere from 50%to 100%above the guide price.So lets say I pay out $18 for that book I will receive $33 if the book checks in new,for a profit of $15,and $26 if it checks in used for a profit of $8.(Iwould say 70 -75% of the books check in new. After all most teachers hardly ever use these books-they just sit on their shelves.Thats why most buyers don't buy students' books-they're more worn and torn and you might end up with the wholesaler rejecting it and getting paid nothing) Now,Amtext does receive a commission for the volume of books that the buyers supply the wholesaler with and thats the million dollar question - 'how much' and I really don't have a definite answer for that' but my best 'guesstimate' would be between 10-20%-so lets say for the sake of our discussion-its 15%. Now for those full time buyers to earn their on average $35,000 per year Iwould say that they would have to be supplying the wholesaler with a volume of around $70,000 and a part-timer would have to supply a volume of $30,000 to earn his or her $15,000 a year.So now we have lets say 200 buyers supplying volumes of $30,000 for a total of $6,000,000 and approx 100 full time buyers supplying a total of $7,000,000 in volume- for a grand total of $13,000,000. At 15% Amtext would then receive $1,950,000 from its wholesalers. Now, I don't have a clue about Amtexts tax situation- how much they do or don't pay.As far as the office in Miami is concerned- it is staffed right now by four senior staff members(besides Chuck Nathan who is hardly at the office-he stays close to M especially when M is in North America- I guess M likes to know how his fortune is coming along)and they are all premies.They work hard long hours and they will not hesitate to tell you that they are underpaid for the job that they do.In addition to the premie senior staff members there are around 5 or 6 junior,part time staffers who really have no clue who they're working for.Boy would they ever be surprised if they found out it isn't Chuck. Amtext has no regional managers.All buyers are sponsored and trained by other buyers who receive a 2% sponsoring commission.I understand that around 50% of the premie buyers have been sponsored by Barbara and Shawn Brogan of Cleveland Ohio and the Brogans are also part of the Amtext management team along with Chuck and the premies at the office. Questin 2: some of your answers you have above,but where did you get the idea that Amtext is a pyramid-it isn't.If I sponsor a buyer in Amtext, I'll only receive my 2% on that buyers volume, and not on the buyers that that buyer may sponsor.Yes the boxes are all packed by the buyers and shipped to the wholesaler directly,although amtext has recently obtained wharehousing space to consolidate shipments to a smaller wholesaler in Nebraska.The wholesalers are pretty loyal to Amtext (of course they really don't know what Amtext is,and would they really care if they found out- after all Amtext has done a great job in bringing home the bacon for these companies-why spoil a positive business relationship over a silly satguru-who knows)and it would be difficult to go around Amtext and deal directly with them.Intrestingly enough, while the wholesalers remain loyal to Amtext-Amtext isn't all that loyal to its wholesalers.I understand that that wharehousing facility recently obtained by Amtext is being used to divert books to independant retail book stores. Question 3:Whats interesting here is that the money Amtext brings to M is used for his personal maintenance and that of his family.None of it goes to EV for his work.Its with Amtext money that he cares for his family,pays his personal residence staff and whatever else. Question 4: You are right-That 6-$800,000 may be too conservative an estimate, especially now that I've done that little arithmatic excersize above. Question 5: yes it is very clear what M is interested in and what his priorities are.At the party I attended, in response to a question he said' Nobody here is interesred in fame' and I believe him. He didn't say anything of 'fortune' however. Question 6: Yes head office is in Miami. Question 7: This is a very competitive business almost saturated and much of that is thanks to Amtext. In their greed to please M way too many buyers have been sponsored creating alot of dissension especially amongst premie buyers. Iwould venture to say that the company I'm currently dealing with knows it all about Amtext. Although I personally have never talked to these people about who Amtext is ,I'm not the first premie buyer to jump ship.In fact when I told them that I would now be directing almost all my business their way Iwas told'you know ,we don't even have to go out there to look for buyers,we just wait for Amtext buyers to come to us when they can't take the pressure anymore.'Idon't know how old this company is but they are a major international corp. and I certainly haven't lost anything by leaving Amtext behind. Question 8: Please let me save that for another post.I promise- I wan't to share as much as you want to hear. Question 9:Absolutely-we are told to keep quiet.There is just so much duplicity , complicity and hypocrisy in the Amtext environment -you would just have to keep your mouth shut. No, the Amtext staff would never talk about M wanting this or that.They would say 'Chuck wants it this way' and that would be the cue that it might as well be coming from M since Chuck is most of the time physically close to him. Finally- no , M would never discuss any concerns at least with the buyers and I believe the reason for that is -that it would mean acknowledging that there are problems in the world of Amtext-and this is something he would not want to do. I mean why open a whole can of worms and mess with something that has brought you so much green over the years.He knows there are problems and his solution is 'lets have a party and let all the buyers hang out with me for a couple of hours at the residence,that will solve everything.' And so Nero plays his fiddle as Rome is burning. And thats all for now --Have a good one. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 04, 1998 at 20:43:07 (EST)
From: x Email: None To: Nimrod Subject: Thanks Nimrod Message: That was very interesting reading, let me be the first to thank you for sharing this information. Those were some intricate questions JW threw out to you, and I'm sure a lot of people here appreciate your detailed prompt response, I sure do. I'm also looking forward to hearing more regarding question #8. There are so many disturbing angles to this twisted tale, but the financial shenanigans of M and his minions are definiteley among the most heinous and crimnal of his MANY failings, though I still think his biggest crime is(was) ignoring the stories of molestation and abuse by his mahatmas. Not to mention aiding and abetting the criminals. Anyway, thanks again, x Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 01:00:23 (EST)
From: Runamok Email: None To: All Subject: Sex, Lies, and TEXTBOOKS! Message: This is very interesting and I doon't know the slightest about this company. A couple of minor observations: Textbooks are extremely expensive and outprice a similar non-texbook by about double. The '$15' textbook is an awfully rare item- perhaps a $15 workbook to go with a $45 textbook is more realistic. The devaluation of books is pretty steep in the non-textbook market. One chain I know that deals in used books pays a ridiculous amount for even the best of books- probably between 5 & 10 cents a book. This market is less interested in textbooks and will generally toss them (not accept them). This whole controversy exists in the recording industry where thousands of records/now CDs have gone out forever to radio stations with a hole punched in them and the 'promotional item not for sale' inscription. The greatest legal controversy is where some kind of conspiracy exists to ship out large numbers of recordings under fraudulent circumstances (records without the inscription which can be resold more easily or inscribed records to vendors). I've never heard of a prosecution based on a store selling these items but I've also never heard of a catalog offering them for sale. The IRS has paperwork for whistle-blowers and will carry on an investigation if it finds reason to. If you witnessed probable wrong-doing personally you could file this kind of paperwork. I believe your identity is confidential and it sounds like there would be too many possible informants for anyone to be vulnerable to suspicion. Sometimes people fill this out to reveal their employer was responsible in some way for what the IRS penalized the employee for- but not necessarily. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 12:02:34 (EST)
From: friend Email: None To: Runamok Subject: Sex, Lies, and TEXTBOOKS! Message: al capone (american gangster from the 20's)did alot of bad stuff but you know what they actually caught him on? tax evasion. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 20:02:45 (EST)
From: Nimrod Email: None To: friend Subject: Sex, Lies, and TEXTBOOKS! Message: M's entire financial empire is based on tax evasion. Why the f**k can't they nail him! I mean I'm sure they have tried and hopefully they'll keep on trying. If I had the scoop on Amtext's tax situation I'd go to the IRS myself-anonymously or otherwise.But I really have no info in that regard and I feel that any such effort on my part would be futile. Somehow, I feel their day will come. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 16:13:35 (EST)
From: Selene Email: None To: Nimrod Subject: Amtext-more answers Message: Nimrod, I just wanted to echo the thanks you are receiving. This has been a huge eye opener. I left the gooroo 10 months ago and it's been kind of a roller coaster for me. It's one thing to sense or intuit that something is very wrong. It's quite another thing to have it proven by very factual info like this. You have helped more than you may know, although I am also feeling very sad for someone I used to be close to who was one of the buyer drones. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 17:09:06 (EST)
From: Selene Email: None To: all Subject: ps Message: although I am also feeling very sad for someone I used to be close to who was one of the buyer drones. And I do mean very sad. God damned that cult and it's leader to hell! so there. Adios to my soul and seat in the great convention hall in heaven. Had to do it. M making millions while decent people slowly waste away. Jim, I am beginning to understand the level of your anger. Maybe I have just been squelching it. Better go now. whew. I feel like i am going to get shot on the way home or something. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 19:46:50 (EST)
From: Nimrod Email: None To: Selene Subject: Glad this helps Message: Thanks Selene. Its been less than 10 months for me and I can certainly relate to the rollercoaster experience.My involvement with the cult spans 27 years of my life (I received k when I was 18 years old), and like you, I also grieve for some precious and beautiful people I've left behind. Its been a week only since I discovered the Forum and I feel that staying in touch with you guys has helped immensely.Thanks to everyone for drawing this stuff out of me-it feels real good. Keep on trucking Selene Love, Nimrod Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Dec 05, 1998 at 21:44:30 (EST)
From: Selene Email: None To: Nimrod Subject: Glad this helps Message: Again, thank you. Especially for that personal reply - I feel quite honored. I consider you a very special and ethical individual to have gone to this trouble to talk to me and all of us.. Love, Selene (ask anyone here, love selene is not a usual thing for me heh) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 05:41:17 (EST)
From: Nimrod Email: None To: Selene Subject: Glad this helps Message: I really don't feel that I'm speaking out in this forum because I'm a 'very special and ethical individual'-its more like I'm an individual who feels that he's been victimized and speaking out lessens that feeling of victimization for me. And its really not trouble to speak to you and everyone who participates in this forum-for myself I feel its very much a healing. Remember M quoting Buddha?-'When you point one finger at someone else there are three pointig back at you' You're the one who's very special Selene. Love Ya, Nimrod Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 12:32:44 (EST)
From: Mark Email: None To: Nimrod Subject: A defense of Amtext Message: as a parent who during a recession in my day job desperately needed income during the 91-94 period , I worked with Amtext. I found the actual operation of the company extremely competent and straight-up. And like any income strategy it has its pluses and minuses.And certainly some specifics of the companies operation are open to critique, there are 'more equal' pigs,the company doesn't protect territories outside Ohio, etc. but it isn't/wasn't any evil thing,premie and non work there, and the profit going to M is a value added profit,ie,Amtext gets an override from Barnes and Noble for generating its volume.That goes to Amtext which pays its staff, enables people to make a living that requires hard work, believe me. M gets the rest as secret owner, which is another can of worms. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 19:33:21 (EST)
From: Selene Email: None To: Mark Subject: A defense of Amtext Message: Yes I was thinking about that today. Some of the premies had no way of having any other type of job, what with having to jump up and go off to a festival er.. event all the time, and other demands that make it hard to keep a job. I think, when I get angry like that, the crux of the matter is that odd combination of religiosity, perfect master, etc., and then the strange obfuscation of the business dealings, tax status, lifestyle of M and his family. Having so recently gone to those things, I have a hard time putting it all together. It seems corrupt somehow, but not because of Amtext alone. That is just one little piece of the puzzle and when a piece of the puzzle fits for me, it starts to paint a very bizarre picture. It's because of the role M plays 'at the top' of the chain that gets to me, he isn't claiming to make income or be a CEO of some corporation. Glad it did provide you with income when you needed it though. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 23:14:20 (EST)
From: Nimrod Email: None To: Mark Subject: A defense of Amtext Message: I'm glad that in your struggle to provide for your family you were able to find work with Amtext, moreover,I respect it.I'm also glad that you were able to leave psychologically unscathed, unharmed. That's the best part of it for me-I believe you may be one of the lucky ones. Mark,did you ever hear M refer to the adage 'ask me no questions, and I'll tell you no lies.' And have you ever noticed that in making this reference, he had this comical almost quizzical expression on his face,as if he were sharing an inside joke with the premies?This to me is what Amtext is all about. As I've said previously, almost every facet of its existence is riddled with complicity, duplicity, and hypocrisy.Let me explain. -Non-premie buyers are being duped into believing that the owner of Amtext is anyone but M.Is this ethical? -The wholesalers with whom Amtext does business are similarly being duped.I mean, I really don't know how the Amtext management team would handle the question 'who owns Amtext? ' from members of the general public, but ,as I've already related to you guys-premies were told at the residence in May of 1996 by Chuck Nathan that M was 'the sole beneficial owner of Amtext' Now what a duplicitous term that is!What does 'beneficial owner' mean? Tell us please, oh Chuckie Cheese.Does it mean 'principal ' owner? Does it mean 'legal' owner? Well I guess the only thing we drones were supposed to know was that our work was of benefit to M-as he put it 'I wanted to have all of you here today because I want you to know that your work is very important to me.' Furthermore I believe that the working agreement that Amtext has with its wholesalers is being violated in a serious manner by books being diverted to independant retail outlets.There were alot of rumors flying around on this subject during my time with Amtext that this was the case,so much so that the smoke could burn out your eyes.When I confronted Barbara Brogan on this issue not only did she deny it of course, but she let me know in no uncertain terms that I shouldn't raise the issue again. -The junior non premie staff members are also being duped.Not only do they not have a clue as for whom they are really working , but the thing is this-if I'm a junior non premie staff member at Amtext, I could work my butt off for the company in my effort to get ahead, but you and I know that a non premie will never, ever make it into senior management on the simple basis that they are not premies.They don't know this of course, and there may be a few who believe that advancement is possible, but it just aint going to happen.So, I ask you Mark, does the term 'discrimination on the basis of religion' mean anything here -Why was the Brogans territory in Ohio protected allowing them to become virtual millionaires in the process when no such priveledge was accorded any one else?I believe it was because Chuckie Cheese found in them the most willing and capable accomplices to work with him in all this head-f**kery.Their role as 'priveledged' buyers and their actions to undermine those whom they disapproved of has been one of the most serious points of dissension among the premie buyers.Along with Chuck Nathan they are the most hated people in Amtext-and trust me on this if you were ever to attend an Amtext gathering at the Lord of Love's residence-that feeling of hatred is palpable. I didn't understand it at first but now I do. -When I was at the residence I witnessed the following.There was this little premie buyer who seemed to be shaking in his boots. There was one of the big boy buyers who had his arm around the little guy-telling him and I quote 'Don't worry, f**k the office and just do the business' Now why would he have to be told this unless he himself was being f**ked by the office? I believe that what the big guy was telling the little guy was this 'don't worry about the psychological abuse you're getting from the office, just go out there, buy those books and everything will be fine.' My whole point is this. In an atmosphere of such massive hypocricy,and ... well you've probably heard this before... cheat and deceit...there are bound to be casualties.Perhaps from your particular vantage point at the office, you were not in a position to observe this...I don't know...I'm just glad that you weren't one of the casualties. Something to be gratefull for. Finally, thanks for drawing this out of me. As usual it feels good. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 15:32:40 (EST)
From: Mark Email: None To: Nimrod Subject: A defense of Amtext Message: nimrod i'm well aware of the residense thing , been at 3 meetings. some of my friends are top 10 buyers for the company and believe me I'm not in the babe in the woods category (plus grossed 135K a year in a Brogan saturated market) Its not a hate infested enviornment, tho it always felt wierd that premie competes against premie tooth and nail . . . however, there are 72 million other companies, professional athletes and probably a number of male and female prostitutes all 'doin it for the 'lord' ' of their particular imagination. subterrianian religious committments including profit siphoning are SOP in the corporate world, and while not Kosher, a lot of people doing business or working for companies don't know who controls what.And bottom line it shouldn't matter. Amtext provides a service to wholesalers , and does it well . That's the true Religion of business. Do your job well and reliably, and allow me to profit by your actions. Premies are idealistic, so there can and should be dissapointment when they realise this is not a 'divine '/perfect company. But it is a fair one, and the 1099 relationship they have with all parties have allowed you to move on and compete against them.. So my suggestion is , do so without rancor. Remember, it could be worse. You could be still locked up in both an Unnatural untrue limiting belief system with M and working within the restraints of Amtext, both of which you seem to have successfully outgrown. Congratulations to you , and us all. Mark Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 02:20:30 (EST)
From: Nimrod Email: None To: Mark Subject: Without rancor Message: Thanks for reminding me how fortunate I am to have moved on.Its been a treat for me to work with a company as I am now, where the only considerations brought to bear on the business are 'business' considerations and not the 'personal' considerations that come about when you are dealing with people who believe that the will of their office is reresentative of the 'Will of the Lord' I take no issue with the job that Amtext does for its wholesalers-in this regard , Amtext has undoubtedly been successfull.My bone of contention here is more with the job that it does on premie buyers who have run amok of the will of the lord...er...uh...I meant the will of the office,or whatever. A little story and I hope you won't find this too rancorous.It comes from Ann Johnston, a legendary premie who in her earlier days was referred to by some of the mahatmas as the 'housemother of all Divine Light Mission' It seems that before Chuck Nathan even knew about the bookbuying business there was this other ashram premie who was actually doing it.He had the misfortune however of having Chuck for a room-mate.Chuck thought that this was a great business to deliver to M but this other premie wasn't so cooperative so as Ann put it-'Chuck stole the business from him'(one need only imagine what that was like)This by the way was living proof to Ann that Chuck ' must have a lot of Grace ' in order to accomplish something like that.And I agree -Chuck must be a very graceful thief-he certainly has had the opportunity to learn the art of graceful thievery from the very best. Its late now-I'm a little tired, perhaps even confused-but I have this question- Is thievery part of your 'Religion of Business' or is the Business of Religion...thievery.nice talking to you. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 10:23:23 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Nimrod Subject: Yes, it was stolen alright Message: I've actually heard form the guy who started the business in '78 and watched as Nathan ripped it off from him a year later. I've asked him if he'd post something here and maybe he will. It was definitely stolen, though. At least according to him. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Dec 08, 1998 at 20:38:38 (EST)
From: Nimrod Email: None To: Jim Subject: Yes, it was stolen alright Message: Thanks for the confirmation Jim! I had no doubt Annie Banannie was telling me the truth, at least on this one. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 16:10:57 (EST)
From: Runamok Email: None To: Nimrod Subject: of Amtext Message: I am not a lawyer, but as I understand it, when a company diverts product to an illegal outsource (possibly in this case retailers), it is serious trouble if it gets caught. Big time. If it were individuals doing it, it wouldn't have the same connotation. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |