Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum III Archive # 35 | |
From: Jan 8, 1999 |
To: Jan 25, 1999 |
Page: 4 Of: 5 |
Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 01:11:26 (EST)
From: The Red Knight Email: mrgreenmrgreen@netscape.net> To: Everyone Subject: Enjoying Life Message: Since I found this sight I've been looking around and checking out what's going on.I know I should keep my mouth shut;but hey.About the time some of you where doing your satsang and hugging and kissing each other(mid seventies),I was a kid fighting for my life in a Northern Thialand prison,seeing and experiencing things that I wish I had'nt;like seeing one of my friends kicked to death by a bunch of drunken prison guards,all because he took the wrong 'shirt' from the communal clothes line;a shirt worth less than a packet of smokes.There's some heavy emotions involved with experiences like that ,that take time to heal,but I got through it and my life experiences have made me strong .Maybe you guys just had it too easy and are looking for something to complain about.Eventually your going to have to grow up and take responsibility for your lives and stop blaming other people for them.There's many paths in life worth exploring,but you seem to be stuck in some sort of time warp.There's no malice intended in what I've said,I just wanted to get it off my chest.Anyway I hope you all have enjoyable lives.(smiley face) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 02:10:25 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: The Red Knight Subject: Enjoying Liposuction Message: Red: You sound familiar. Is your name Marshall? But I am sorry, I haven't the slightest idea what you are talking about. I guess I agree that Maharaji is an insignificant fraud, but what does exposing a fraud have to do with blaming someone else for our troubles? Are religious frauds an endangered species or something? I don't get it. Suppose this site were devoted to a grocery store chain that sells rotten meat. Would that be more menschlich, or is it still whining? Oh, I forgot. Enjoyinglifeandallthatstuff. Gladyougotthatoffyourchest. I agree. Maharaji is not a significant poop. So, have you anything of a more substantial nature to contribute? -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 14:26:01 (EST)
From: barney Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Scott, which Marshall? Message: Scott, Which Marshall are you talking about? I knew a Marshall, too. He was as mad as a hatter. I know that my Marshall was a disabled Vietnam Vet or so he said. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 16:44:11 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: barney Subject: Scott, which Marshall? Message: barney: Sounds like the same guy. A sort of poor man's Gordon Liddy. I roomed with him in Boston, for a brief time. He thought he was the reincarnation of George Washington, and referred to meals as 'mixtures.' Wore a Karate Ghi everyplace. His wound, by the way, was self inflicted. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 17:28:24 (EST)
From: barney Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Marshall, he's the one! Message: Scott, why do you think the Red Knight is Marshall? Also, did you know Billy from Salem? yup, that's the one - a poor man's Gordon Liddy. I suspect that he was a transient member of every community on the planet. yes, I had heard the same (maybe from him) about his wound. when I knew him he spoke with a fake hindi accent and rather than eat dinner with everyone else he would goto the satsang hall and give satsang to the walls and the plants. For years after he left our community I would always try to spot him at programs in order to avoid him. If Marshall is the Red Knight then I'm gonna stay the hell away from him. Also, I definitely do not want him to know who I am or where I live. IMHO, this Marshall guy is very scary. I actually hope the best for him. I'm sure that we've all met a lot of headcases in the cult, but there's only one premie that really scared me and that's him. And if he's still into BM then BM is the only thread that he has that links him to reality. BTW, the weather here in Wyoming has been really cold this year. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 18:31:17 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: barney Subject: Marshall, he's the one! Message: barney: Frankly, I don't think the Red Knight is Marshall. I think the Red Knight and Red Heart, and Red Heels are all the same person. I don't think he/she was ever a warrior. Marshall was a hoot wasn't he! I didn't find him all that offensive. He must have liked me. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 19:01:51 (EST)
From: barney Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Marshall, he's the one! Message: yeah, he was a hoot. I think he liked me too because I listened to his stuff. I remember him at Kissimmee driving around in some kind of station wagon that had most of the roof cut off to be an impromptu convertible. Still, I don't think I'd like to cross him as I have in these posts. Anybody else know Marshall? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 19:26:12 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: barney Subject: Marshall, he's the one! Message: barney: Still, I don't think I'd like to cross him as I have in these posts. You might be surprised. He was definitely not in the conventional premie mold, so he may have been in the best place possible... for him. I know what you mean about crossing him though. I never saw him bully anyone, so in that sense at least he was not 'mean.' He had a peculiar sense of order. Highly, well... ideosyncratic. He once told me he thought eating raw cranberries was masochistic, this with a mouth full of cranberries. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 20:07:02 (EST)
From: bad barney Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Marshall, he's the one! Message: Scott, Yes, Marshall never did anything mean that I saw. He actually might have had class. The cranberry story is pure Marshall. I take it that you were aware of the exact nature of the problem. If not email my agent at roger7000@hotmail.com Interesting was that a few years later I had a job at the Corporate HQ of the largest manufacturer of these hearing aids and learned all about it. Do you live in Oregon? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 18:55:02 (EST)
From: barney Email: None To: barney Subject: Red Knight not = Marshall Message: Unless Red Knight was trying to throw us off the track about Thailand I don't think that he and our Marshall are the same person. RK said in the mid-seventies that he was a kid in prison in northern Thailand (say Chiang Mai?) Ok, I ran into Marshall in 1974 and I believe that he was older than me - maybe 25 to 30? Furthermore, I believe that I saw Marshall every year at a program. However, there is a possibility of Marshall being in Thailand because I KNOW FOR A FACT that in 1974 he wanted to go to Thailand to do prachar. Nevertheless, did I mention how cold it's been here in Wyoming? Hell, Interstate 80 was closed for nearly 5 weeks. In fact, the road to my ranch has been impassable since November 1. And the mountain lions are starving and eating human beings at a record rate this year. Sure am glad that I stocked up on food and lots of ammo. And those new night vision goggles are lots of fun. At night I can see the coyotes hit the electric fence and fall into the moat and get eaten by the gators. And sometime this spring right after the road opens up I'm gonna be moving back home to Europe. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 21:36:37 (EST)
From: dv Email: None To: barney Subject: Marshall, he's the one! Message: You must have never met Jamie, the socipath M allowed to take refuge, and run rampant, at the Broad Ripple in Miami. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 23:44:20 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: dv Subject: Jaimie, the sociopath Message: dv: Jamie, the socipath That would be one of Maharaji's 'great souls,' no doubt; like Jagdeo and Padarthanand. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 00:02:09 (EST)
From: bill Email: None To: dv Subject: Jamie--707-deca Message: Oh Jeeze, Jaimie. He came storming after some guy at deca one sunday morning chasing him with a machete. I lived across the street from deca and unfortuanately so did Jaimie (for a short while). Different cottage of course. One day some big premie came on sunday morning to accuse jamie of being the guy who took the chain saw from his pick up truck. Jaimie was just a tad displeased with this and got his machete and chased the guy into deca. He ended up in the courtyard backing the guy into a corner and then spraying him with water from a hose while the courtyard security gaurd kept telling him to calm down. I saw this and all I can say is that the neighborhood was such that anyone could have taken his chain saw. The small market just 100 yards away was named 'murder mart' by me and it caught on. The store owner shot and killed a burgler then hid the gun in the ice cream and told the cops someone else shot the guy. As the 707 took off for the first time, I was standing on the roof of deca and we all cheered as it went right overhead. As we looked eastward, it flew out of sight and then our eyes dropped down and we were looking at smoke billowing up not far from us. It was the start of the riots. 1981 riots in miami. I'll skip some gruesome details. The next morning I was standing at the road about to cross over to deca and a car filled with four very intense pair of eyes drove very slowly by staring at me. I was just a few feet away, the wrong color, but I was really happy in miami and innocent too and I think they saw something of that in my eyes and I just didn't trigger any 'get whitey' buttons. Believe me, other premies were not so lucky. Includeing Jim Hession. He got beat up. Other early teenage kids died just for driving the wrong way into the hate filled area. Sen. ted kennedy came through tsk tsking the police and never mentioned the young innocent killed by the rioters. Nice touch ted. rawat changed the way he drove to deca. came another exit off the highway. I named the street I was on, and deca was on, satguru blvd. rawat really thought he was lord. He told jaimie after that incident (over the phone) that HE rawat, gets the urge to hit people sometimes and he wanted Jaimie to just 'go inside' the next time he was about to hit someone and rawat would 'give him something inside'. Always playing the god card when it was handy. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 00:27:13 (EST)
From: dv Email: None To: bill Subject: Jamie--707-deca Message: I don't think M's suggestion worked. M let Jaime stay at the Broad Ripple long enough for a few incidents. He whaled on George A. big time(taught ole George a new lesson about doing security), and I heard about a scene where he was repeatedly kicking Bonnie Y. as she lay on the floor of the main lobby in the fetal position. One night I was manning the ancient hotel switchboard at three in the morning, putting a call through to France for David Goulet, all the while Jamie is hovering over me with a 40lb wood stool poised over my head. He threatened me several times that night, finally backhanding me across the face with a pretty good sucker punch. I'm surprised no one was seriously hurt. I wonder, where has knowledge taken him now? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 11:12:42 (EST)
From: bill Email: None To: dv Subject: Jamie--707-deca Message: remember how he got married to that fool of a girl? I think she was pregnant. He invited most all of the broadripple residents and i think very few showed. I saw him at early eighty events. How dumb to invite him to the broadripple. was that david armstrong? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 14:59:22 (EST)
From: dv Email: None To: bill Subject: Jamie--707-deca Message: It was M's personal direction for him to stay at the BR. This happened with a few others, tho Jamie was the most 'noticeable'. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 16:54:25 (EST)
From: barney Email: None To: dv Subject: Jamie- Gross Negligence Message: I only play a lawyer on my Internet Broadcasted TV Show, but... It's too late now, but aren't we talking civil lawsuit material here? Not to mention obvious criminal citations. I take it that the police were never called to avoid an ugly situation that would lead to the Big Rat? this guy sounds like, like, like, freaking CRAZY nutz DANGEROUS. And BM put him there? A guy like that needs to be locked up or ostracized enough to be away from a community. I think that we're talking just about Gross Negligence on the part of the Big Boss on this. Imagine if this guy killed somebody. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 17:04:39 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: barney Subject: Jamie- Gross Negligence Message: I remember Jamie when I lived at the Broadripple and he was truly nuts. I just did my best to avoid him. But I know the security people had it difficult, and no one could do anything about it because it was Maharaji's agya that he be there. Remember also that the Broadripple was also full of premies with all kinds of new age and psychosomatic illnesses? Another example of what this cult can do for you. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 19:10:16 (EST)
From: chr Email: None To: JW Subject: Jamie- Gross Negligence Message: I have mixed feelings about the whole thing with Jamie.I knew him a little before Miami. I once saw him lift the back a car , wheels and all,off the sidewalk.His strength was frightening. At one stage M put him with Bihari Singh.I was never clear why M gave him the personal attention he did-it did seem at the time that he was trying to help him or maybe he was just trying to keep a potentially damaging and explosive situation under control. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 02:42:54 (EST)
From: dv Email: None To: chr Subject: Jamie- Gross Negligence Message: He certainly enjoyed imagining his strength- While I was putting the previously discussed phonecall through the BR switchboard, Jamie was clamping on to my wrist with both hands like two vices, exclaiming, ' you see, I could snap your wrist in half right NOW! You want me to try it?' etc. I (ahem) calmly put the call through. Just another day in M's world. Hmmm- put that or 'this must be a test' on a tee shirt and commission Gary Larson to draw. I can think of many, many tee shirts. Wasn't someone else on this site looking for a cartoonist? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 02:50:52 (EST)
From: Gail Email: None To: dv Subject: Jamie- Gross Negligence Message: Did this guy just carry on like a lunatic without provocation? You should have ganged up on him. MJ's magica method of going inside was, obviously, too slow. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 03:04:35 (EST)
From: dv Email: None To: Gail Subject: Jamie- Gross Negligence Message: Yes. He may have been ganged upon. I don't know what happened to him, I was on to bigger and better things(shudder). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 02:57:28 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com To: The Red Knight Subject: Enjoying Life Message: But you're not the only one here to have seen awful things happen and watch people die in horrific circumstances. But we're not talking about such things here. There's ex-army guys here who've seen more than their fair share. I saw something on TV the other night that was pretty horrific and made my blood boil and made me want to weep and do something about it. I saw a TV documentary showing hidden video footage of parents trying to murder their own babies by smothering them. It was awful to watch and the doctors who were gathering the evidence said it was terrible for them to watch too. Sure there's terrible cruelty on this planet. And it pains me to see it. But this web site is about another branch of life to the above. Why shouldn't it be here if people want it? You tell us to grow up and yet your previous post to OP could hardly be called mature, could it? And listen; what's this crap about enjoying life. When I see such sights as those little babies being suffocated by their parents it makes enjoying life a nonsense. Sure there's terrible suffering and cruelty but we're not adding to it here. And we're lightening the load for some people. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 05:41:09 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: The Red Knight Subject: Enjoying Life Message: Dear Red, I do feel empathy for what you have been through. I just wanted to say that but otherwise I agree with Scott and Sir. This site has been a positive force in the lives of many of those who found it. If it wasn't for them, they moved on. For me, I didn't suffer under BM's divine rule but I have faced some things I'd swept under the carpet and found a LOT of great people here. I did read your post to op and thought it was lilting and poetic. I assume you wrote it because, 1. you think op gets a raw deal here or 2. because she is a premie, or 3. because you had a love at first read kind of experience. I do wish you well if you do see this but from the sounds of it you won't be back. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 12:57:48 (EST)
From: Selene Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Enjoying Life Message: Don't worry Robyn. Red will be back. Has been here before too I bet. We get these types of posts so frequently I tend to agree with Katie - there should be a form letter for them, so all they have to do is press the SUBMIT button; and maybe add a blank text field so they can vary the 'horrific experience' that makes us all look like a bunch of immature brats. Anyway I kind of like getting to be an immature brat for a change. so.... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 10:14:57 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: The Red Knight Subject: Enjoying Life Message: Red Knight, I've been through some tough spots in my life as well, but I don't use those experiences to inform others how much easier they've had it than me. It would make me look like I'm feeling sorry for myself. It lacks class. You got out with your life and so did I. I'm thankful for that. This site is primarily a support center for people breaking free from the programming they received while in Maharaji's cult. I'm sure there are support groups available for vets who sufferred the atrocities you've described. I wouldn't go to there and say what a big bunch a babies you are, get over it, it happenned a long time ago, get over it. That wouldn't be right and I wouldn't do it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 10:30:18 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Enjoying Life Message: Jerry: I am not sure this is a sincere post. The language is very familiar, don't you think? I'd not be surprised if we have seen our friend Red Knight in other incarnations, and his war experience is just a dramatic device. As you indicate, it's not really relevant either. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 10:54:57 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: The Red Knight Subject: Like, wow, man! 'fer sure! Message: like seeing one of my friends kicked to death by a bunch of drunken prison guards,all because he took the wrong 'shirt' from the communal clothes line;a shirt worth less than a packet of smokes. Okay, and I saw one of my friends driven to hang himself all because he began questionning the divinity of a little hindu love god. Heavy shit, huh? Eventually your going to have to grow up and take responsibility for your lives and stop blaming other people for them. I guess by that reasoning you'd say your prison friend had what's coming to him, right? You wouldn't be harbouring any resentment against those Thai prison guards, would you? Get real, man. Time to take some responsiblity, eh? Really, this misuse of the word 'responsibility' is one fo the thickest new-agisms around. What's it mean? Nothing. Why do people say it? To make other people shut up. When WOULD it make sense? Here -- 1) Proper use of 'responsibility': Dave knows it's illegal to drink and drive. Dave drinks and drives. Dave has gotten busted for this before. Dave gets busted again for drinking and driving. Dave whines that 'this is the last thing he needed right now'. Dave's friend tells him to 'take some responsibility' for his circumstances. He knew the law, he took a chance. Oh well. 2)Improper, new-age use of 'responsibility: Dave falls in with a guru. The guru tricks Dave into thinking he'll go to hell if he leaves him and he'll leave him if he allows his mind to doubt the guru too much. Dave starts doubting the guru and can't stop. Still, he thinks the guru knows what he's talking about so he thinks he's on his way to hell. Dave kills himself. Dave should take some responsibility for himself. Red Knight, what you fail to mention is the resonsibility the Hamster should take for HIS life. How has he affected people? Good? Give him credit. He's responsible for all the good he's brought to the world. Bad? Give him blame. He's responsible for that too. Get it? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 11:13:26 (EST)
From: gerry Email: None To: all Subject: Believe this happy crappy? Message: seeing one of my friends kicked to death by a bunch of drunken prison guards,all because he took the wrong 'shirt' from the communal clothes line;a shirt worth less than a packet of smokes. Ha ha ha! Yeah, sure, ''Red Knight'' RK watches too many tv shows and BM videos. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 11:34:07 (EST)
From: gerry Email: None To: Red Nitey Subject: PS to happy crappy Message: I was a kid fighting for my life in a Northern Thialand prison,seeing and experiencing things that I wish I had'nt; If this asshole had really experienced this, wouldn't he be able to at least SPELL THE NAME OF THE COUNTRY CORRECTLY? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 12:28:29 (EST)
From: Anne Email: None To: Jim Subject: Like, wow, man! 'fer sure! Message: Hi Jim, Excellent description of 'Responsibility'. Anyone using this site to express their experiences of gm&k and their views on those experiences now, are taking responsibility. They are coming to terms with the denial and betrayal of their own thoughts which allowed them to stay with gm. What may come across as 'whinning' to a devotee is healthy venting necessary to get on with the next stage growth. Anyone thinking of leaving or joining by reading all the comments here will at least be exposed to questioning themselves about gm&k. Anne Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 11:49:55 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: The Red Knight Subject: Enjoying Life Message: RK: Walk a mile in MY shoes before you make a statement like that, you idiot! What an incredible EGO YOU ARE! You've obviously 'merged' with your self-ishness.... I'm really impressed! You aren't the only person to have negative experiences 'in this life!' I'm not a psychologist, but isn't this kind of attitude referred to as 'delusions of grandeur?' Someone... Anyone? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 12:50:23 (EST)
From: Selene Email: None To: The Red Knight Subject: Enjoying Life Message: Hi You know, you may not like my sense of fun, but a LOT of the time I read here and post here because I enjoy it. I'm not beating people to death for God's sake! I have met real friends here, we do share a unique past. It's really cool and if you don't like it dont hang around. Especially if it brings up a horrible memory and makes you angry that we had it 'easier'. I agree, my life was easier than that. I am horrified that happened to you and the others. but it doesn't have anything to do with this site. I don't understand the lecture, reallly. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 14:41:30 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: The Red Knight Subject: Dear Red Knight Message: Dear RK - You wrote: Since I found this sight I've been looking around and checking out what's going on.I know I should keep my mouth shut;but hey.About the time some of you where doing your satsang and hugging and kissing each other(mid seventies),I was a kid fighting for my life in a Northern Thialand prison,seeing and experiencing things that I wish I had'nt;like seeing one of my friends kicked to death by a bunch of drunken prison guards,all because he took the wrong 'shirt' from the communal clothes line;a shirt worth less than a packet of smokes.There's some heavy emotions involved with experiences like that ,that take time to heal,but I got through it and my life experiences have made me strong .Maybe you guys just had it too easy and are looking for something to complain about. I'm really sorry that that happened to you, and to your friend - it sounds terrible. I hope you've gotten some help to learn to live with it. What I take issue with is your assumption that people here 'have had life easy'. I don't see how you can assume that. I've had the priviledge of corresponding with many people who post here, and I can definitely tell you that most people here have NOT had easy lives. There is a lot of pain under the surface here. We don't talk about the traumatic experiences that we had that weren't related to Maharaji and Knowledge veru much on this site, but that doesn't mean they didn't happen. Eventually your going to have to grow up and take responsibility for your lives and stop blaming other people for them.There's many paths in life worth exploring,but you seem to be stuck in some sort of time warp. I think that what you don't understand here is that is just what most of the people on this site are trying to do: take back responsibility for their own lives after dedicating them to Maharaji for years. This is a process, as I'm sure you know, and it often starts with anger and blame. Eventually, to be healed, people do have to move beyond the anger and blame, but people have to be able to express it first. That is part of the reason this site is here. As far as being stuck in a time warp, many people here are trying to get OUT of the time warp. So many people here got into Maharaji in their teens or early 20's, spent a decade or two in the cult, and are trying to put their lives back together after leaving. Many of us never talked about it after leaving, but it did leave scars. It helps very much to talk about what happened with other people who experienced it too - it's hard to wake up and realize that you're in your forties and spent a large chunk of your life devoting your life to something that wasn't true. The things people write on the forum may sound complaining and insignificant to you, but I hope you can understand that talking about these things is part of the healing process. Maybe you don't understand why people are so upset, but that doesn't mean it's not significant to them. There's no malice intended in what I've said,I just wanted to get it off my chest. Well, people say what you said on here a lot (as Selene said, it's almost like a form letter that varies in the details.) I say 'why be so judgemental?'. I have worked on the site for over a year and I have seen tremendous growth and change in people who post here. I think it's a positive force and it helps people rid themselves of the past and get on with their lives. I have seen people move on from here after they got the help they needed, and I've also seen other people stick around and help others with what they've learned. Please try and understand this, and don't judge us for it. Respectfully, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 18:16:35 (EST)
From: Red Email: None To: all Subject: On everything Message: Dear Everyone.I just read your replies and my ears are ringing.I agree with a lot of what you said.I'll fess up;I was going to push a few buttons and move on,but it turned out to be an empty experience.I should know by now not to make judgements about people.I sincerly apologize.It's an interesting place you have here,if you scratch below the surface there's no telling what you'll find.I should'nt of been here in the first place,so I'll get out of here;it's been an interesting experience for me. I wish you all the best and enjoy.I'll just gently tuck my tail between my legs and limp into the night.smiley face Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 16:51:29 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Red Subject: Thanks, RK Message: Although I didn't like your original post very much (as I'm sure you could tell!), your apology was a class act. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 09:29:34 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Katie Subject: Dear Katie Message: Every time I start thinking that you're too nice, you post something like this and I come away thinking that I'm not nice enough. That's another great reply to Red Knight. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 14:50:50 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Brian Subject: Dear Brian Message: Thanks, Brian - I appreciate you saying that. I think you are uncommonly nice, BTW. Who else would put up with all of us crazy exes? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 22:55:42 (EST)
From: Gail Email: None To: Everyone Subject: 'MJ not here for personal Message: relationships.' I guess he said that to a bunch of initiators in the late 70s. According to Anne Johnston, one of the initiators bent down and gave MJ a kiss on the cheek in front of everyone. MJ freaked out. The woman was so humiliated that she cried for days. This is just another example of the 'Twentieth century Lord doing things in a twentieth century way.' (The Lard said that, too.) This was Anne's response to me when I told her I'd dreamt that I had given MJ machine-gun kisses on the cheek. What a way to wreck a dream! I only had about three MJ dreams for my entire 24-year obsession with him. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 23:29:28 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Gail Subject: 'MJ not here for personal Message: That is just crazy. He sounds very prissy, actually. So mean, too, to humiliate someone like that. I have been humiliated like that by a spiritual teacher I followed pre-GM (can you believe I had 2 gurus--is that sick or what?) I suffered for an entire summer after this arrogant SOB slammed me at one of his satsangs when I aksed a question. It was awful. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 23:39:27 (EST)
From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Gail Subject: 'MJ not here for personal Message: Ah, such a sweet, sensitive and compassionate soul is Maharaji. I don't use this word normally because I don't like it and anyway, I'm British; but Maharaji, you're such an asshole. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 10:55:26 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: 'MJ not here for personal Message: Surely Maharaji could have spared a hug for this initiator's spontaneous expression of love for him. How arrogant to have withheld that from her when she was devoting her life to spreading his stupid message. I imagine that the initiators were half-starved for human touch, that is why half of them turned into coo-coo birds. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 11:46:46 (EST)
From: 8-ball Email: None To: Helen Subject: 'MJ not here for personal Message: Surely Maharaji could have spared a hug for this initiator's spontaneous expression of love for him. Yuck! Think of the germs! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 14:42:11 (EST)
From: barney Email: None To: 8-ball Subject: kissing the wrong body part Message: The problem was that this initiator kissed the wrong body part. Anybody knows that. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 06:56:03 (EST)
From: Passing thru Email: None To: 8-ball Subject: Can't resist Message: Dear Posters, Has it occured to any of you that the first post on this thread may not be quite right. PT PS. This thread is so pathetic that I will not post on it again. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 12:06:28 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: Passing thru Subject: Did it occur to you that Message: it might be quite correct, PT? If it's anti-M, then you immediately jump on it like it is false! God, it can't possibly be true! You sound like the early theologians talking about the 'fact' that the earth was the center of the universe! Why don't YOU ask Anne Johnson, PT? AFRAID, maybe?????? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 23:35:04 (EST)
From: Gail Email: None To: Passing Through Subject: It's right, PT Message: Why not call up Anne Johnston at the REZ and ask her. I know she certainly put me in my place that day. BTW, No I wouldn't walk up to MJ and start giving him machine gun kisses. I'll leave that to Ms Lewis. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 12:30:39 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: PT Subject: To: PT Message: PT: I'm sorry that I couldn't get to your response prior to it scrolling inactive. First: I wasn't agreeing with VP concerning what you said about the 'family.' I was referring (and still do) to your obsfucation concerning the suicide issue. You attempt to change the subject or steer it in a direction that is beneficial to yourself and less harmful to the hamster. This is what I took and take issue with. This indicates a total lack of caring concerning the central issue, M's responsibility in instances of premie suicide and, of course, the victims themselves. I've seen NO evidence of 'caring about the victims or the cause' displayed by ANY PREMIE (including YOU)! Second: Your statement concerning 'all medical knowledge.' Your example is BOGUS! You cite a viral infection (a physical event) to attempt to support your 'psychological' conclusion..... WRONG! I ask again: TELL ME WHERE (in a REAL medical journal) 'all medical knowledge' indicates that M & K can't be held accountable for premie suicides! Tell which journal states, categorically and undeniably, that M & K ( or any other cult behavior) isn't responsible for suicides. You won't find it, because it doesn't exist. In fact, there are MANY articles in respected journals concerning the physical/psychological hazards of cults, including SUICIDE potential. Sorry, PT, but you owe the medical/psychological community an apology for this total disregard for their research and its conclusions. Now, what I want to know is, will it happen? (I'm NOT holding my precious breath on this one!) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 22:28:51 (EST)
From: Passing thru Email: None To: Mike Subject: To Mike Message: Dear Mike, I'm not trying to dismiss the pain and sadness associated with suicide. Nor am I unsympathetic to people who commit suicide or to their friends and family. What I do object to is people making absolute claims for which there is no reliable evidence. In this case, that Maharaji is some how responsible because he gave Knowledge to someone who later commited suicide. During my life I have been friends with six people who have commited suicide (including my sister) none of whom had Knowledge, and I know of one premie, who commited suicide after a relationship break up. One thing my friends had in common was an underlying instability that was, in some cases, evident for many years before they died. And that their eventual suicide was a culmination of everything in their lives. From the things they were born with like physical and emotional temperament, their genetic inheritence and their intelligence. To the things they accumulated through life, their family, their friends, their culture and environment, their experiences and their choices, their thoughts and their feelings. Plus many innumerable other influences, big and small, internal and external that interact to create a unique being. The causes of a suicide are far more complex than even the person who commits suicide can explain. To try to say that one book, one song, one relationship, one incident or factor is the cause of a suicide is absurd. Even if one of them had written a note blaming a situation or person, I would not have taken it to be the real cause. As I wrote to Jim, Charles Manson claimed the Beatles song Helter Skelter drove him to murder, who is responsible, the Beatles or Charles Manson? John Hinkley shot Reagan to impress Jodie Foster, who is responsible? Reagan for being who he was, Jodie Foster for playing a prostitute in Taxi Driver or John Hinkley for pulling the trigger? Even though the jury thought John Hinkley was responsible, he was a victim too, a victim of his own unfortunate combination of all the factors I gave above. Some people even commited suicide because Kurt Cobain died, who is responsible? Is there any one to blame? Is there any need to blame? I would argue in every case that the cause was not a song, a film or a singer from Seattle. That the answer lies hidden in the one who makes the final choice. Hidden from everyone including themselves. And given the four billion people on the planet, there will be suicides, there will be murders ,there will be accidents for reasons we can never explain or understand. Unfortunately, shit happens. PT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 22:41:41 (EST)
From: Gail Email: None To: Passing thru Subject: To Mike Message: This is the most civil I've seen you. I'm really sorry about your sister. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 23:06:17 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Gail Subject: Civil? Yes. Clever? No. Message: As I wrote to Jim, Charles Manson claimed the Beatles song Helter Skelter drove him to murder, who is responsible, the Beatles or Charles Manson? And as I wrote to you, it's all a matter of forseeability. Should the Beatles have anticipated that some weirdo petty cult leader would extrapolate their lyrics as a call to arms for a fake race war? If the answer's 'yes', then 'yes' they're responsible. If not, they're not. Here's a little thought experiment. Imagine a guru who persuades his followers to trust him over their own minds. Imagine he tells them that only purpose of life is to 'merge' with him and the only way to do that is to 'surrender' their minds. Imagine that he orders them to leave no room for doubt in their minds and fills them with lots of ugly imagery of the consequences of doing otherwise. Imagine that he sets up 'ashrams' for them to live in where all they hear, morning, noon and night, day after day, month after month, is that same conditioning. Woudl it be forseeable that some of them would crack? That's the question you've got to consider. Now what the fuck's with you, PT? I've said this all to you twice before and you ignored both times. Please, deal with the argument as it progresses. Don't feign autism. John Hinkley shot Reagan to impress Jodie Foster, who is responsible? Reagan for being who he was, Jodie Foster for playing a prostitute in Taxi Driver or John Hinkley for pulling the trigger? Even though the jury thought John Hinkley was responsible, he was a victim too, a victim of his own unfortunate combination of all the factors I gave above. Pretty irrelevant, PT, but your analogy does raise an interesting query. (Oh, so that you don't accuse me of ignoring your questions I'll answer that. Hinckley's responsible. Despite whatever factors made him as he was. Now if you could find a single force in his background that recklessly made him a crazed assassin, you might have an interesting question about responsibility. Foster playing a teen hooker or Regan being president don't qualify). Here's the question: Imagine a guru who persuades his followers that he's god in human form and that the most preciosu thing they could ever do is receive and follow his 'agya'. Imagine this guru telling his followers again and again that theirs is not to question why but to follow his 'agya' without question. Imagine this guru knowing that some of his followers interpret their dreams as being direct conduits to him, opportunities for him to bestow that 'agya'. Imagine one unstable follower dreaming that the guru's told him to do something weird, like take a shotgun to an ashram and shoot all the women there. Imagine he does it. Is the guru responsible? In Maharaji's case, after that guy shot up the girl's ashram in Florida, Maharaji sent out a letter disavowing the protocol of receiving 'inner agya' (i.e. agya from dreams). Why'd he wait for that disaster to happen? If he knew premies were simply imagining they could get agya in their dreams why didn't he dispell their illusions earlier? Was it forseeable that some unstable premie might do something dangerous to either himself or others believing Maharaji told him to? Hm? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 18:25:18 (EST)
From: Passing thru Email: None To: Jim Subject: Civil? Message: Dear Jim, 'A matter of forseeability?' Since Maharaji began talking in the west his major theme has been the precious of human life. That it is our greatest gift. That it is not to be wasted under any circumstances. That every single breath is precious. That as long as we have life we have enormous potential. That the purpose of human life is to enjoy this wonderful creation. To experience the love and beauty that resides in the heart of every human being. For you to suggest that some one who takes a life can legitimately claim to be influenced by Maharaji is incredible. The person is unstable, mad, isn't that obvious. They could have been getting messages from lamp posts. You have reached a new low when you are prepared to argue that Maharaji is some how responsible when a mad person goes against everything that Maharaji has said. As for your 'thought experiment', Maharaji has used millions of ideas and concepts, phrases and sentences over the last thirty years to encourage people to appreciate life and experience joy. That you think that your childlike ability to cut and paste .00000000001% of the words or phrases that Maharaji has used to describe the beauty of life and our ability to experience it, out of the context in which they were used, without the clarifying elements that went with them, to produce a result that you think he or we should have fore seen is, well, interesting. PT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 19:01:08 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Passing thru Subject: Civil? Message: PT: You are a genuine piece of work. What M says about life is meaningless insincere drivel. Any sociopath can say anything he wants, and is likely to say what people want to hear, if he desires a following. What actual evidence exists that M values life, especially anyone's besides his own (which is marginal at best)? What actual behavior reveals the verity of his testemony, the truth of his convictions, or the potency of his opinions? Nada. In a trial this uncorroborated 'character testemony' would mean less than nothing, since it would predispose a jury to view him as a sociopathic liar. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 20:40:41 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Passing thru Subject: Let's tighten the winch, PT Message: That you think that your childlike ability to cut and paste .00000000001% of the words or phrases that Maharaji has used to describe the beauty of life and our ability to experience it, out of the context in which they were used, without the clarifying elements that went with them, to produce a result that you think he or we should have fore seen is, well, interesting. Just for argument's sake I'm going to concede most everything you've said here. Yes, of course, m talked flowers and rainbows. Harmless. Fine. But let's look a little closer, shall we? Say only '.00000000001%' of what m said could be misconstrued like you say I'm doing. Fine. The question remains, PT,: Was it forseeable that anyone might make that mistake? That's all. Should m have known that some of what he said just might screw some people up? Anyway, you're such a piece of shit, I can barely contain myself BUT.. deep breath, yes I'm trying. Now why do I say that? Because I followed this guru fella for a number of years and all I ever got from him was constant 'encouragement' to 'dedicate myself 100 per cent', 'surrender my mind to him', 'surrender my life' and yes, asshole, FEAR my mind. Sorry, Mr. Mind. What am I pissed off about? The percentage you've attributed to m's questionable words. When was the last time you looked at the quotes on JM's page? How many of them do you think qualify as part of your estimated '.00000000001%'? How many of them, in retrospect, should m have realized just MIGHT set someone off? You're an absolute asshole. Yeah, I'm angry. I deal with some pretty bad people all day long. I just got back from a bail hearing on a murder charge. You, sir, have a much less appealing personality than any client I've had the pleasure of knowing. You're dishonest to the core. Jai Satchitanand. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 05:10:30 (EST)
From: Passing thru Email: None To: Jim Subject: Let's frighten the wench Jim Message: Dear Jim, Yes, you're absolutely right, there will always be people who will misunderstand what the vast majority see as clear and unambiguous. But what can you do for them? If a movie or a song can create or inspire a murderer, is it possible to protect a minority of people from themselves without severely restricting the rights of the majority? I don't think so. PT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 11:42:13 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Passing thru Subject: ANSWER THE FUCKING QUESTION! Message: Fuck you, PT: WAS IT FORSEEABLE THAT SOME OF THE PEOPLE WHO HEARD MAHARAJI'S WORDS WOULD CRACK? Yes or no? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 20:16:40 (EST)
From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Pissin me Off Subject: LIKE YOU NEVER ANSWERED MINE.. Message: Yes, you're absolutely right, there will always be people who will misunderstand what the vast majority see as clear and unambiguous. Majority?? What majority? The majority of people who ever 'received Knowledge' got out long ago. Something like 90%, according to reliable estimates. But what can you do for them? Hmm... tricky one. Passin'. I suppose one might try and help them, maybe. Give them a little less heavy satsang. Let them believe its ok to go home and visit their folks once in a while. Hell - Love them. Listen to them... Use your imagination. A little TLC... What does Mr Rawat recommend? I don't seem to remember him saying anything... If a movie or a song can create or inspire a murderer, is it possible to protect a minority of people from themselves without severely restricting the rights of the majority? I don't think so Sophistry and bunk. PT. We've heard your philosphy and learned it: We're all adults. We have free-will. We make our own choices, right? We alone are responsible for what becomes of us. So if Knowledge has brought you nothing but happiness, why not take all the credit for yourself? Why praise Prem Rawat? Why bother trying to defend him? If Prem didn't make any of the bad stuff happen to other people, he can't be responsible for making any of the good stuff happen for you, can he? Either he has the power to influence for good or ill, or he does not have that power. Either he has the means to change people's lives for good or ill, or he has not. Either he can 'free you from your mind when you live beneath its shadow', as was once proclaimed, or he cannot. PT: Would you say a quack with a bottle of snake oil has any responsibilty for the welfare of his patients? Think long and hard for once, and try to see the scale of the mindwarp you've got going on here, brother. (then fuck off.) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 23:39:29 (EST)
From: Runamok Email: None To: Passing thru Subject: Re: To Mike Message: M looks for and creates a relationship like the ones you mention. When I followed M, people were always dying to be in his personal presence- and anybody who says he didn't encourage it is insane. He cultivated the kind of relatinships that for famous people are a by-product of their fame. He kept that kind of thing in maximum overedrive. So with Manson or Hinckley, they were imbalanced to think they were in some way that close to the Beatles or Foster. In M's case, he was always making a point of being that close to us. It's much more of a responsibility. He walked way down that road- farther than media personalities. I can't say that he always could have stopped a suicide. I can say from personal experience that his word to me as an individual has no value. If he said or says- you don't need a job or he will buy land for all the premies to live on or he will establish peace on earth- if it gets me in trouble, he really won't be there to ease my frustration if I actually believed him and counted on him. I can say that he prob did help alot of suicide along. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 23:43:56 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Runamok Subject: Good point Message: So with Manson or Hinckley, they were imbalanced to think they were in some way that close to the Beatles or Foster. In M's case, he was always making a point of being that close to us. It's much more of a responsibility. He walked way down that road- farther than media personalities. Yeah, Run, that's an excellent reason why m should have known he could be de-stabilizing some and REALLY de-stabilizing some who weren't so stable to begin with. Really, this is so obvious. But let's see if PT will finally address this argument. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 18:47:11 (EST)
From: Passing thru Email: None To: Jim Subject: Good point? Not! Message: Dear Jim, Thanks for admitting that some people 'weren't so stable to begin with'. But the main point is that tens of thousands of people understood exactly what Maharaji was saying. That a mad person, mad enough to kill, didn't understand is hardly surpising. That's why I find the legal argument of whether a murderer is insane or not a bit odd. What sane person murders? PT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 20:56:44 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Passing thru Subject: You are really REALLY stupid Message: I'm beginning to think you don't know how to reason, PT. Either that or you're playing the same game CD's played here on and off for years now -- pretending to not get the point in order to avoid it. The question, again, is whether GIVEN EVERYTHING it was forseeable that some premies would have cracked. Should m have known the potential effect of his words and actions? Look, without going another step, just answer me this: do you think you understand the question? Paraphrase it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 05:15:14 (EST)
From: Passing thru Email: None To: Jim Subject: Stupid or simple Jim? Message: Dear Jim, Do I think Maharaji thought that his encouragement of people to enjoy life and be happy would be seen as an excuse to shoot people? No I don't. PT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 06:38:12 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Passing thru Subject: Stupid or simple Jim? Message: This is what is called IRRESPONSABILITY in 'this world'. Any responsible person, being the head or a teacher in a group where quite some people would behave in weird ways, and misusing what they are taught would take serious measures to avoid this. Most of those dramas and other criminal stuff have been reported to him since he is in West, and he never did what should be done. His only policy is to hide himself, deny any responsibility, say premies are crazy, and keep dangerous assistants. I'm not speaking of what he himself did, and that's not acceptable from a teacher 'in this world'. Of course 'm's world' is something else .... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 00:23:36 (EST)
From: ooops, I accidentally Email: None To: Passing thru Subject: read a pt post!!! Message: why in the world would I ever do that? It is just a bunch of typed falsehood, lies and twisting of reality. bill Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 05:19:31 (EST)
From: Passing thru Email: None To: Bill Subject: Accidents do happen Bill! Message: Sorry Bill, This thread is not for people who just want to interject with out saying anything relevant. PT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 15:57:32 (EST)
From: If there were rules Email: None To: Passing thru Subject: honest would be a requirement Message: I know you like to play 'let's play pretend!' I don't think most of the 'bums in seats' as YOU refer to people at programs, would stoop to fabricating and misrepresentation like you do. You call them 'bums in seats'! your attitude is very much like the one you lie for. bums in seats You leak your contempt for others. All others. Your contempt -passes through- your -peaceful poseing-. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 04:23:25 (EST)
From: op Email: None To: bb Subject: brit would be a requirement Message: I don't think most of the 'bums in seats' as YOU refer to people at programs, would stoop to fabricating and misrepresentation like you do. You call them 'bums in seats'! your attitude is very much like the one you lie for. bums in seats Dear Billy: bum = rear end bums in seats = derrieres (asses, butts) touching furniture Although I obviously don't agree with everything PT says, you take the cake for quickie - and erroneous - readings. He is referring to an anatomical part, not to the whole person. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 00:40:48 (EST)
From: bill Email: None To: op Subject: brit would be a requirement Message: OK OP. Your right about the British term. Nice to see your two letters again. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 18:40:41 (EST)
From: Passing thru Email: None To: Runamok Subject: To Runamok Message: Dear Runamok, I've never heard Maharaji say you don't need a job except in the context that a having a job is far less important than having a life. I've never heard Maharaji say he will buy land for the premies to live on but I did hear him talk once about a futuristic city where there were vacuum intakes in the gutter to suck in the car fumes but he didn't say he was going to build it. I've have heard him say that his job was to establish peace on this earth and I'm pleased to say he has achieved that in my case. Lets face it Maharaji has said millions of things but what is his message. That within every human being is an experience of peace and joy and that its good to know it. PT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 21:43:27 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Passing thru Subject: Pee on Earth Message: I've have heard him say that his job was to establish peace on this earth and I'm pleased to say he has achieved that in my case. I thought you were just passing through? Peace on earth = self satisfaction for PT. Brilliant. You have a real handle on things. The Guru's influence is obvious. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 16:46:49 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Passing thru Subject: To Runamok Message: Lets face it Maharaji has said millions of things but what is his message. That within every human being is an experience of peace and joy and that its good to know it. And he says it over and over and over and over and over and over and over... and when he thinks you're ready, maybe, just maybe, he'll reveal some bull dinkey techniques to prove it to you, but instead you'll feel nothing but a big letdown, if you're like me and a lot of others. But by that time you'll have invested so much of your faith, hope and energy, into M & K, you'll be extremely reluctant to give up on it anytime soon. In an interesting test of peoples' reasoning skills, more people said that if they had already bought tickets for a show they would travel through a snowstorm to get to the show, then if they hadn't bought tickets but were offered seats for free. The idea is that if we've invested time, energy or money in something, we're determined to see that investment come to fruition, no matter what the sacrifice. I'd say dedicating your life to someone is the ultimate investment. No wonder we stuck with M as long as we did. Just abandoning that kind of investment with nothing to show for it is too tough a pill to swallow. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 01:38:44 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Passing thru Subject: The Nihilism of Cultism Message: PT: And that their eventual suicide was a culmination of everything in their lives. Sort of, by definition. Not a great insight though. The causes of a suicide are far more complex than even the person who commits suicide can explain. I submit that suicide is comprehensible, though it may be complex. Durkheim held that suicide was both an individual and a social act. But not to entertain the idea that a cult leader is responsible for an increased frequency of suicides is basically to say that nothing matters. It is a close kin to nihilism. The Hinkley and Manson examples are not suicide, although they are deviant. In addition, the primary difference between the fab four, Jodie, and GMJ is that Maharaji's influence is based entirely on a claim to divinity (or in the lite version to spiritual superiority). It also involves covert authoritarian control, which plays no part in the career strategies of Foster or the Beatles. Is there any one to blame? Is there any need to blame? I would argue in every case that the cause was not a song, a film or a singer from Seattle. That the answer lies hidden in the one who makes the final choice. Hidden from everyone including themselves. My, this is cryptic! The veil is absolute, is it?? Poor Durkheim. He thought he had something to contribute. But, if I could control your thoughts (and the control would not have to be absolute, to be effective) I daresay I could commit the perfect murder, at least by your standards. I could get you to do the dirty work yourself. You see no dilemma there at all? I admit that with regard to murder the issue is intent, but according to your definition my intent plays no role at all. Then suppose my intent is not to kill you, but merely to bleed you for a long long time. So, it's not murder. What is it? Benevolence? -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 11:29:46 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: The Nihilism of Cultism Message: Great post, Scott. Yes, this guru trip is incredibly nihilistic--after all, detachment is the key to enlightenment!! And detachment there is no blood on MY hands!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 11:31:01 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Scott Subject: The Nihilism of Cultism Message: meant to say 'and detachment means there is no blood on my hands' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 05:26:41 (EST)
From: Passing thru Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: The Cult of Nihilism for Scott Message: Dear Scott T, The classic position of a psychotic person is that they are absolutely controlled by the voices they hear in their heads. That is the ultimate expression of authoritarianism whether the actual owner of that voice is involved or not. As for your perfect murder, I doubt your ability to control my thughts or even your own. PT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 20:13:37 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Passing thru Subject: Think about that a moment. Message: PT: The classic position of a psychotic person is that they are absolutely controlled by the voices they hear in their heads. That is the ultimate expression of authoritarianism whether the actual owner of that voice is involved or not. Since there is no rational intent behind the voices it is not control, but rather confusion and delusion. Besides, a person under covert authoritarian control usually does not know it. If he did the control would not be effective. Witness John Travolta under the control of the Scientology cult. Scientology simply can do no wrong, no matter what the evidence. Sound familiar? As for your perfect murder, I doubt your ability to control my thughts or even your own. Your doubts should be based on my (demonstrated) intent, not by ability. The sort of doubts you express would be a necessary component of the design. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 10:02:08 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: Passing thru Subject: To PT Message: PT: Now, THAT was a REAL response, whether I agree with it or not! Thanks. I, too, am sorry to hear about your sister. My mom committed suicide when I was a young teenager, so I have some understanding of what you went through (not exactly, but certainly close). PT, there are some problems with your response. You try to compare Manson and Hinkley to a suicide. It ain't the same thing nor does it demonstrate your point. As Jim said so eloquently, below, Manson and Hinkley were NOT told to surrender the reigns of their lives to the Beatles or Jody. They weren't promised 'liberation' by those individuals, either. Their 'minds' were their own and they weren't told to 'turn them in to be fixed.' This list of differences could go on and on, but I think that is unnecessary. Because he asked for your entire life, he MUST accept the responsibility for (and ANTICIPATE) 'unusual' events and outcomes. See what we're talking about here, PT? Additionally, why is it that M never sent condolences to the families or other premies? Don't you think that he has THAT responsibility when those ashram residents have surrendered their entire lives to him? Why did he wait until he was threatened with lawsuits to do anything at all? What's with that? The next question may 'inflame' you, but I have to ask it: Could it be that he just doesn't CARE????? Sorry, PT, that's my entire take on M, in this regard. You will find it very difficult to find evidence to the contrary, I'm afraid (and THAT is the REAL shame of it, don't you think?) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 06:08:04 (EST)
From: Passing thru Email: None To: Mike Subject: To Mike Message: Dear Mike, I used the example of Manson and Hinkley to show that people will do violent things under the impression they are influenced or intructed by people who, if they knew, would be horrified and abhor the actions under taken in their name That people would commit suicide on the death of Kurt Cobain illustrates how obscure the reasons often are. I think there is no doubt that Maharaji has made his position clear, he considers life to be the most precious gift and worthy of the greatest respect. And I think that he would be saddened by any uneccessary death. But that he should write a condolence note to the family and friends of any person with Knowledge who dies is unreasonable. Hundreds of premies die every year, I know of four who have died in the last six months, through car accidents and illness, and to my knowledge, none have expected or wanted a note from Maharaji. Death is a part of life and most premies accept that. PT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 09:57:12 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: Passing thru Subject: But.....PT Message: PT: Sorry, but I can't agree with his responsibility to contact families (under the guise that it is unreasonable to expect him to do so). The US Military, with over a million people under arms, NEVER 'forgets' to inform the relatives and supply personally delivered condolences (and money). This is PARTICULARLY true of suicides! The military, whose primary mission is NOT 'feelings,' appears to give more of a damn about its people than M.... Simple as that! AND they don't have to be sued or threatened with lawsuits to make them do it, either! There 'may' be some things wrong with the military (depending on your point of view), but THIS isn't one of them..... We're talking common HUMAN DECENCY here, PT! I just don't see M as caring about anyone that is in 'trouble.' You can't use the lame excuse that he is just one person, either. Either he is GOD or he is NOT, PT! You can't have it both ways. If he IS god, then he is doing a poor job of anticipating problems and taking care of his devotees (in fact, I'd say that he sucks at it!). If he isn't god, then he is a LIAR in the most heinous sense because he clearly represented himself this way (quoted, time and again!) and his devoted minions placed all of their faith in that. PT, he IS responsible, whether you or I think it so! In EVERY sense of the word, he is responsible and should be held ACCOUNTABLE for his lack of action! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 20:28:45 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Passing thru Subject: attribution Message: PT: And I think that he would be saddened by any uneccessary death. Do you happen to know what the term 'attribution' means? An example: It is the conviction, on the part of a voter, that his congressman has the same position on a controversial issue that he, the voter, has... even though the voter has absolutely no reason for such a belief. In other words the voter doesn't know anything about the congressman's voting record, or his position statements. Unlike you I see no evidence whatsoever that Maharaji is saddened by anything besides the fact that his bank account is not large enough, and his power is waning. If your brother acted (forget the speechifying) the way M does you wouldn't think him a great humanitarian would you? Wouldn't you just consider him greedy and venal? -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 11:24:07 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Passing thru Subject: To PT Message: I would like to say that my feeling about suicide is that it DOES NOT necessarily occur in people who have been unstable all their lives or are tempermentally predisposed to suicide in some way. I think that a lot of us here have the feeling 'wherebut for the grace of God go I' when we read about these premie suicides, because many of us can imagine, from our own experiences, how the premie trip could add variables leading to suicide. I used to work with women with postpartum depression. SOme of them had never had depression in their whole lives. Th e number of stress-producing variables in their lives seemed to produce the depression: 1. Hormonal adjustment 2. Lack of support 3. Overwhelmed by demands of new parenting 4. An illness or death in family/or a recent move 5. Difficult recovery from childbirth 6.. sleepdeprivation I worked with over 100 of such women (I went into their home and gave them practical support) and a predisposition to depression did not seem to be a variable in long-term postpartum depression. One or two of the above variables might not lead to depression, but add two or three more and you have a full-blown chemical depression on your hands. In other words, stress seems to be a HUGE variable in depression. Support seems to be a big variable that can mitigate the effects of the other variables. Was there/is there support in the premie community? I mean the support of giving HUGS & practical help to people who are going through a crisis? I think the emphasis on detachment in the premie community and the reliance upon knowledge as the cure of all stress is not really helpful to someone with suicidal ideation. WHether or not we can scientifically prove that GM contributed to people's suicides--I don't know. But I think it is interesting that many of us here on the forum can imagine ourselves potentially in a suicidal frame of mind at some point during our premie lives. The repetitive stress of the lifestyle of repressing so much, & of trying to live up to impossible standards, and of lack of support can lead to long term depression and suicide, there's no doubt in my mind. Certainly, now as an ex-premie I am better equipped to seelk the right kind of help if I found myself in a depression. I now know that meditation would not cure a chemical depression. Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 11:36:00 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: PT Subject: To PT (Addendum) Message: One of my severely depressed clients once said to me that trying to meditate/exercise/talk away her depression was like 'rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic'. She needed swift psychiatric intervention, she went for it, and she is now doing fine. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 11:51:47 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: PT Subject: To PT (Addendum 2) Message: I'm on a roll here and I don't have much time to post long posts anymore so I just want to list some of the stress variables of being a premie in the 70's-80's (jim summed it up really well above, also): 1. little money, lots of debt, employment problems due to involvement 2 no dreams/hopes for the future except GM 3. Possibly poor health, unaddressed health concerns, lack of exercise 4. Little knowledge of and experience with psychology (remember most of us were very young) 5. Stress of suppressed doubts, stress of emotional/developmental truncation 6. Being moved around from ashram to ashram 7. Traveling to festivals--more fatigue & stress 8. Rifts with family and old friends (this should be #1) 9. Being told you're in your mind if you start to have a bum trip 10. And the top ten reason for getting stressed out while being a premie was: YOU SURRENDERED YOUR MIND TO SOMEONE WHO CLAIMED TO BE THE LOTU AND TURNED OUT NOT TO BE. HOW NUTS IS THAT????? How you can say GM was not partially responsible for this stress and subsequent suicides is absolutely beyond my comprehension. Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 13:35:16 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: PT Subject: To PT (Addendum 3) Message: I know you probably won't respond to this (you hardly ever respond to my posts) so I'll just blather on. ANY OF US COULD COMMIT SUICIDE IF PUT UNDER THE 'RIGHT' CONDITIONS/VARIABLES/STRESSES--ANY ONE OF US. 'Any man's death diminishes me because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never know for whom the bell tolls, the bell tolls for thee'--John Donne Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 14:22:53 (EST)
From: John Email: None To: Helen Subject: To PT (Addendum 3) Message: Wow! Hey, how bout putting your feelings into a song? Just thinking about what you said about wanting to work on your song writing... I bet you could write some great anti-devotional stuff, of course some on this site have already done that. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 14:38:51 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: John Subject: Songwriting (OT) Message: Good point, John. I think that song 'Another Day in Paradise' by Phil whats-his-name (who used to be in Genesis) dealt with the same 'where but for the grace of God' sentiment in regards to the homeless. They say that our aversion to the homeless stems from the fact that subconsiously we know we're two paychecks away from being them! I did write a song about Michigan recently and I am writing a blues song about addiction, it has the line about 'rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic' in it (OK, I stole the line from a client, but I think that line is part of the culture now, so it's fair game) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 06:49:23 (EST)
From: Passing thru Email: None To: Helen Subject: To PT (Addendum 3) Message: Dear Helen, Exactly. Any death limits life. Let's just hope its not ours. PT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 06:46:37 (EST)
From: Passing thru Email: None To: Helen Subject: To PT (Addendum 2) Message: Dear Helen, I'll go through these from my experience in the ashram. 1. little money, lots of debt, employment problems due to involvement NO MONEY, NO WORRIES. FOUR YEARS OUT OF THE WORK FORCE. 2 no dreams/hopes for the future except GM. PLENTY OF FUN IN THE PRESENT 3. Possibly poor health, unaddressed health concerns, lack of exercise GOOD HEALTH, SOME EXECRCISE 4. Little knowledge of and experience with psychology (remember most of us were very young) NO KNOWLEDGE OF PSYCHOLOGY 5. Stress of suppressed doubts, stress of emotional/developmental truncation NO DOUBTS, KNOWLEDGE WORKING NICELY 6. Being moved around from ashram to ashram MOVING AROUND BUT ENJOYING THE CHANGE 7. Traveling to festivals--more fatigue & stress NOT TOO MANY FESTIVALS BUT I ENJOYED THE ONES I WENT TO 8. Rifts with family and old friends (this should be #1) MY PARENTS WERE SUPPORTIVE, MY FRIENDS STAYED FRIENDS 9. Being told you're in your mind if you start to have a bum trip I DIDN'T HAVE MANY BUM TRIPS 10. And the top ten reason for getting stressed out while being a premie was: YOU SURRENDERED YOUR MIND TO SOMEONE WHO CLAIMED TO BE THE LOTU (going to small letters) I've still got my mind but I don't always believe it. AND TURNED OUT NOT TO BE. HOW NUTS IS THAT????? How you can say GM was not partially responsible for this stress and subsequent suicides is absolutely beyond my comprehension. Dear Helen, Everything plays a part but as you can see my experience was quite different from the one you described. PT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 06:29:53 (EST)
From: Passing thru Email: None To: Helen Subject: To Helen (Addendum No1) Message: Dear Helen, That's right, horses for courses. PT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 06:27:27 (EST)
From: Passing thru Email: None To: Helen Subject: To Helen Message: Dear Helen, I appreciate your post. I agree that suicidal tendencies are not predetermined from birth. Large quantities of LSD seemed to be the catalyst in my suicidal tendencies. And there is no doubt that straw upon straw will eventually break any camel's back. I think there is no doubt that almost anything can be 'the last straw'. For me, I found Maharaji and Knowledge to be a liberation. No more wrestling with the duality of my mind. At last, a still point within me that demanded nothing but gave me a base that was not influenced by the news and the weather. PT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 12:19:53 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: Passing thru Subject: Duality???? Message: PT: 'Freed from the duality of your mind????' Let's take a look at duality in your 'mind': - Eat a peach: GOOD! - Walk in front of a moving truck: BAD! - Taking a walk in the forest: GOOD! - Picking up a venomous snake while walking in the woods: BAD! - Everyone on earth having food and shelter: GOOD! - Starving people: BAD! PT, I fail to the the problem with duality! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 12:38:48 (EST)
From: gerry Email: None To: PT Subject: Duality???? Message: Goober is the biggest pusher of the duality crap. He promotes the idea that the mind is in a constant struggle with that wonderful thingy inside. If that isn't the biggest (and most harmful, IMO) example of duality, I'd like to know what is. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 20:30:32 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Passing thru Subject: To PT Message: Well you seem to have coasted through GM's world unscathed. I am baffled by your inability to pull back and see the full picture here. But I am too wrapped up in my own survival at this moment to pick a fight with you about it. (No electricity in my home for 24 hrs--a state of emergency in my state due to ice storm) Just one point though. Your response to the John DOnne quote was that you hope it's not you who commits suicide (or something to that effect) I feel that you missed part of the the point. That quote comes from the same meditation of John Donne's in which he states that 'no man is an island'. The line 'don't ask for whom the bell tolls, the bell tolls for thee' means that that guy committing suicide IS you. It's hard for me to explain--it has to do with empathy and humanity. When I was a premie, I was so wrapped up in taking my emotional temperature every 5 seconds-- 'am I having a good experience?'-- that I didn't 'de-center' very often from my own experience and empathize that much with others. Now I would say that I am MUCH more empathetic. Anyway, like I said I don't have the energy to pick a fight. All I would say is that perhaps you need to pull the camera away from yourself and aim it out into the world a little bit--just a thought Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 10:41:12 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: PT Subject: LSD & suicide Message: PT, I just re-read your posts from yesterday. You said that your suicidal tendencies came from too much LSD. Obviously it sounds as if you have contemplated suicide in the past. Obviously, following Maharaji is far preferable to your committing suicide. Maybe your brain chemistry is such that you need a guru at this time (I am not being snotty here--my own brain chemistry was funky for many years and I am still highly sensitive to foods, medications, etc) But I would urge you at some point to try to increase your ability to cope with your mind on your own--it really can be done (if I can do it, anyone can). I mean this sincerely, even though my previous post was kind of snotty. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 23:34:23 (EST)
From: Naive Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Psychiatrists at Longbeach Message: I noticed that there was a large number of Psychiatrists, Psychologists, Doctors and a whole range of New Age Medicine Men and Women on duty on my last visit to Longbeach. Does this mean there is a high proportion of mentally ill and sick premies or is that a silly question? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 23:39:41 (EST)
From: Gail Email: None To: Naive Subject: Psychiatrists at Longbeach Message: I think that professional medics are required to be on hand for large gatherings. It is cheaper (free) for MJ to use the premies rather than hire outside help. There is a special team in place to handle the crazies. Say for example, you are a known schizophrenic. One of the team members would be your escort for the event. (S)he would sit with you in an out-of-the-way spot in case you flipped. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 13:52:18 (EST)
From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Gail Subject: Psychiatrists at Longbeach Message: I usually felt that I needed psychiatric help after I'd listened to Maharaji giving satsang. His whole philosophy grated on my own experience and beliefs. I wonder how many premies are basket cases through listening to and trying to follow this Lord of the Universe. He's enough to send anyone over the edge. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 15:57:24 (EST)
From: Selene Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Psychiatrists at Longbeach Message: Yes. Actually the whole event experience is very traumatic. It overloads the senses with something that a healthy part of you is trying to reject. The crowd, the videos (my pet peeve) the endless sitting around, trying to pretend it was worth all that money and travel. Knowing it wasn't. Lying to ones self. And indeed, listening to his rants. God I'm glad it's over for me. It's just a big religious revival but no one will admit it. It doesn't surprise me that they need shrinks there. But what kind of ethical psychiatrist would be a premie? I suppose if they left M and their twist on life aside in their practice but I can't imagine how they would do that. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 16:57:48 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Selene Subject: Catonics in Kissimmee Message: I remember at one of the Kissimmee Hans Jayanti festivals, premies were REALLY freaking out. We were jammed on that stinking land, while Maharaji luxuriated in a home built just for him, only to come out from time to time to lambast us for not surrendering enough. Then he did some of that ridiculous half-naked dancing on the stage. Anyhow, on one of the days Maharaji did this really bizarre 'parade.' Remember that? He dressed up in his mala outfit and a bunch of the initiators pulled him around the site on a big wagon all decoraded with flowers, on those dirt roads, while the premies lined the roads, yelled Bohle Shri, and pranamed in the dirt. That day my friend Nona had asked me to help out in one of the medical tents. It was FILLED with at least 50 nearly psychotic premies. It was very weird. Anyhow, at the appointed time, we lined up all those psychotic premies along the road to experience the Lord's darshan. But most of them were completely out of it. It was one of the weirdest episodes I recall from the cult. By the way, 'Nona' is 'Nona Vickers.' Wonderful woman. She was originally in Houston, then San Antonio and then Denver. She had a son named 'Sky.' In 1980, when I got transferred to San Francisco, I went to see her where she was living in Santa Cruz. She told me Maharaji was the 'Perfect Scheister.' She later went on and got her PhD in literature from Brown University. Anyone else remember her? I would love to get in touch with her again. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 17:23:59 (EST)
From: RT Email: OMM To: JW Subject: Catonics in Kissimmee 2 Message: HI JW I remember that human parade...it was so egotistical of M to play with peoples' heads. Pulling the Lard! I never saw the tent, but went to the nearby 7-11 and was told the owner was locking the doors because too many divine light lemmings were shoplifitng the goods. Kissimmee was an foolish adventure only for a cult of young people. The closest nowadaze are Phish tours, and lollapalozza events, but there's more drugs. RT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 23:32:45 (EST)
From: bill Email: None To: RT Subject: $15,000 to the store Message: The owners of the store were paid off by dlm for what I heard was $15,000 of stolen goods. That stopped the owners from pursuing a police/media case. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 20:01:34 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: JW Subject: Catonics in Kissimmee Message: I remember that festival. That is quite a scene you have just described. I was an aspirant then, Stupid me. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 20:57:26 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: JW Subject: Tim Gallwey amongst them Message: Yeah, as I've mentioned several times, this was my greatest moment service-wise. I was, after all, in charge of 'Premie Maintenance' at all the booths on site. Must have been at least four including the big one near the food tent. One night Tim Gallwey wandered by wrapped in a blanket and having something of a spiritual crisis. Funny that even as he was flipping out he knew that he was 'special' and that I, lowly, anonymous drone that I was, really had no right trying to counsel him. Asshole. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 21:56:23 (EST)
From: Gail Email: None To: Jim Subject: Tim Gallwey amongst them Message: Have you read Tim's latest--The Outer Game of Devotion. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 14:52:46 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Gail Subject: Winning the game of devotion Message: The 'outer game of devotion'--is this for real? So devotion is a game? And devotion is an outer show? I don't get it. I guess life is a game about 'winning' according to the new age, and devotion to GM is certainly a game where some are the losers and some are the winners. If you have money and play by GM's rules you win the game!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 22:03:45 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Jim Subject: Tim Gallwey amongst them Message: Who is Tim Gallwey and why does his name sound familiar? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 22:34:43 (EST)
From: Gail Email: None To: Helen Subject: Tim Gallwey amongst them Message: He's a tennis guru who wrote 'The Inner Game of Tennis' and dedicated it to his Guru Maharaj Ji to whom he owes everything (or something like that). You can find the book in any book store. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 16:33:16 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: Gail Subject: Not at wimbleton, tho Message: Gail: Yeah, he writes a tennis book, but when was the last time he participated at Wimbleton (other than in the gallery)????? he he he. Yeah, his method MUST be the best..... he he he ;-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 23:17:34 (EST)
From: Ben Lurking Email: None To: Jim Subject: Catatonics in Kissimmee Message: Kissemee Hj was 95 or 96 although I think it was 95 - worked on that stage for 3 months- The actual darshan stage was a 'experiment' MJ has elevated and there were 3 or 4 entrances and there was a dividing wall -one foot for one line and one foot for the other - This was the hi speed experiment. We got to stay in motels while we were working on the stage and then we camped out the last week or so with those outdoor showers and tents ugh . 77 was Rome and I think the hurricane was in 78 what a wild trip that was driving all over the state to stay away from the hurricane. and Rome I road the buses for a week waiting for someone to tell me how much to pay then I get home and someone tells me its and honor system and you are supposed to know what you owe and pay. And don't forget the group o former insiders whose names escaped me who took a bunch of levis to rome and smuggled them into yugoslavia they got something like 50-75 dollars a pair for used levis 'by his grace' ha! what bs By 79 I was on serious drift away and by 80 or 81 other than seeing premies and ex-premies in social situations I was gone (excpet for the few I had entererd into business with but we never talked GM between the exes and the rest of us who wer just drifting away -20 years later and now I know I am an ex although it hasen;t been a burning question for the last 20 years now that I think I have the festival dates I must have left the ashram in 77 cause I was self employed when I went to Rome. Are my dates correct year wise I would like to start to peice together my past and maybe post it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 01:11:39 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Ben Lurking Subject: Catatonics in Kissimmee Message: The Kissimmee festivals were in 1978 and 1979 and not in the 90s. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 15:17:07 (EST)
From: Ben Lurking Email: None To: JW Subject: Catatonics in Kissimmee Message: Typo on my part should have been 1975 or 1976 - The festivsal I was thinking of was the one where the stage floated on the lake, and the stage for the darshan line was over to the left when you were facing the stage. I am conused I don't know if this is the same festival where we camped out or not. I do remember staying in the motel across the street while we were working on the stage (about 3 months) it was actually called Orlando I think but it was in Kissemme. I was out of the ashram in late 76 or early 77 I think so it had to have been before then. My memoryfor hj is 73 astro dome 74 on a college campus or near one on the east coast maybe MASS? 75 I think Orlando 76 77 Rome 78 or 79 hurricane 'miami' moved to orlando kisseme the second day? I know I bought a house in 80 and was pretty much out of the loop by then. Other than one friend who I have since lost touch with 'Art Bown' I haven't seen or heard from premies or ex premies in 15+ years since I left Colorado Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 15:38:10 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Ben Lurking Subject: Festival Message: Hi Ben - The festival in 1974 at Univ of Mass/Amherst was Guru Puja (July). I think Hans Jayanti was in Toronto in 1974. The festival in 1975 in Orlando was Hans Jayanti (lake, floating stage, ring of huge hotels). In 1976, I think Maharaji had a series of programs in the summer - not sure about Hans Jayanti. I went to the summer program in Providence, Rhode Island. That's when he was trying to be a 'humanitarian leader', not the Lord, so no foot-kissing darshan - we just filed past him and bowed or whatever. My memory of all this is kind of fuzzy too. JW's good at remembering this stuff, though. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 22:28:39 (EST)
From: Ben Lurking Email: None To: Katie Subject: Festival Message: At HJ orlando -75, I was working and I can't remember if that was the festival that we stayed in tents in or if we stayed in the motels and the tent thing ws a different festival -althouhg Ithink they were the same. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 17:00:45 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: Ben Lurking Subject: Catatonics in Kissimmee Message: Ben: That 'experimental' stage was tried at Hans Jayanti in Orlando back in the 70's. Gawd, how impersonal that was! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 22:30:58 (EST)
From: Ben Lurking Email: None To: Mike Subject: Catatonics in Kissimmee Message: Thats the one I made a typo my 9's should have been 7's. I worked on that stage for quite awhile before hand Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 00:37:19 (EST)
From: bill Email: None To: Ben Lurking Subject: Catatonics in Kissimmee Message: I worked on the stage also but only for a couple days. I was there the night he came and then he went to the dashan stage. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 22:39:01 (EST)
From: Ben Lurking Email: None To: bill Subject: Catatonics in Kissimmee Message: Were you in the ashram at the time ? If you worked at other sites or festivals we would probally recognize each other. Hec kwe might even be friends or ex enemies :=)! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 14:14:17 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: Ben Lurking Subject: Catatonics in Kissimmee Message: Ben: Obviously, I'm not picking on your workmanship, just the concept.... he he he. I remember that it started to rain by the time we got close. If I'm not mistaken, Scott T was right behind (or before) me. Anyway, I didn't like having to 'run the gauntlet' in the rain. That WAS a strange festival, from my mimited point of view.... he he he. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 22:47:39 (EST)
From: Ben Lurking Email: None To: Mike Subject: Catatonics in Kissimmee Message: Maybe thats why darshan was on the road the next day? So much creative energy on projects that could have been for people in need - or improving the lives of others Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 20:57:47 (EST)
From: Rick Email: None To: JW Subject: Catonics in Kissimmee Message: Hi JW, I remember the darshan on the road with all the premies lined up, but I can't remember the initiators pulling him. I thought he was in a convertable but that must have been Kennedy. I think that festival was in '78, the year before the Hurricane Festival, where we got woken up at 1am and had to literally run through a darshan line in the dirt. It's all hard to believe. Rick Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 21:59:47 (EST)
From: barney Email: None To: Rick Subject: Catholics in Kissimmee Message: For the record and correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds as if many of you remember BM being pulled on something that had wheels. I believe that it didn't have wheels and he was actually carried. I think that it might have been made from lashed bamboo. I'm sure that there is a real name for such a vehicle. Something a bit more primitive than a palankeen? Maybe it was a Black Maria? to goto Dictionary.com After observing the details of the vehicle or whatever, I decided that I'd better check out his nipples. Surely, nipple attributes would be the definitive mark of a true God. Alas, his nipples gave me no clue one way or the other. So, I stayed in the cult for another 20 years and every month thereafter I have purchased special medical journals with detailed glossy pictures of... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 22:52:39 (EST)
From: Selene Email: None To: Rick Subject: Catonics in Kissimmee Message: That hurricane festival was definitely the weirdest, for me at least. We weren't just running in dirt, we were frantically running our ass off in sink down muck! Everybody lost their shoes. We kissed his godlike footsies and went back to our cars. Too much. I actually did kind of swoon as I lifted myself up from this divine feet. They put me in the 'recovery' area. Funny this is, I was weak from a 2400 mile drive, no sleep another frantic drive from MIami to Orlando, running a marathon in quicksand, and than this act of standing up made me almost faint. I was embarrassed and confused. I remember lying there and asking myself, WAS I just overcome by bliss? I keep wondering what whoever maintained that area must have thought when they found all the shoes? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 23:34:50 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Selene Subject: That's easy Message: I keep wondering what whoever maintained that area must have thought when they found all the shoes? Obviously they realized they wouldn't have to buy so much alligator feed that month. (Crocodiles?) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 10:38:45 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Jim Subject: That's easy Message: HA! Either that or rabid armidillos. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 12:37:06 (EST)
From: Selene Email: None To: Helen Subject: alien abduction? Message: I can see the X files episode now. Weird cult hold late night vigil. Cleans out the same night, supposedly because a hurricane was heading to Orlando. Over the next few days the locals discover hundreds of shoes scattered all over the field.... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 13:38:13 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Selene Subject: alien abduction? Message: Yes, and don't forget some hot sexual tension between Gillian Anderson and that gorgeous David guy. SOmeone also has to grow a weird formation out of their head or arm to complete the episode. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 17:10:57 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: Helen Subject: alien abduction? Message: Agent Maulder: Yes Skulley, it appears that we have incontrovertable proof of an alien abduction. Agent Skulley: You've got to be kidding, Maulder. There's no proof of the existence of aliens, much less that they would abduct 5000 people and leave there shoes! Agent Maulder: But you have to admit Skulley, there ARE 5000 unexplaned pair of shoes here, what else could explain this? Agent Skulley: Well, there are cults where people remove their shoes running thru swamps so that they can...ahem...kiss the feet of the living lord of the universe! Agent Maulder: NOW, who is on drugs!!!!!!!! I think aliens are much more likely...... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 20:42:35 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Mike Subject: alien abduction? Message: HA!! I love how Skulley maintains that skepticism even when some guy's head is growing a new head right in front of her!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 20:42:51 (EST)
From: Selene Email: None To: Helen and Mike Subject: alien abduction? Message: Loved it too Helen and Mike. Mike you are a good writer! You captured how bizarre that truly was. :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 21:35:25 (EST)
From: Gail Email: None To: JW Subject: Catonics in Kissimmee Message: I've got that weird procession on personal 8mm film. Yup, it was weird for sure. I remember wondering why I didn't feel more as the Lard was carried along in his 'humans and buggy.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 22:46:29 (EST)
From: Selene Email: None To: Gail Subject: Catonics in Kissimmee Message: shit Gail. You make me see how 'undevoted' i was. You have a weath of trivia and stories, souveniers regarding this cult. You know, I don't even remember the damned procession. Wonder where I was? Shoplifting at the conveneience store? Smoking pot in the woods? I am seeing a sort of justice here, albiet not the kind we would like. Those of you who gave so much at least have some great shit to post here. We really need to collect these stories. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 23:50:24 (EST)
From: bill Email: None To: Selene Subject: mushrooms in kissamee Message: Funny stuff Selene. Arthur Brigham told me at the kissimee program that there were 'magic mushrooms' in the fields and he knew what kind were the ones. But that he wasnt going to eat them for some spiritual reason. He was the only instructor that I wanted to hit. He was one frustrated crabapple. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 12:32:04 (EST)
From: Selene Email: None To: bill Subject: Arthur needed mushrooms Message: He was such a prick. He came around doing a K review one time and I went, even though I had been sick with the flu for about 4 days. He mistook my glazed lack of attention for 'unfocused ego' He railed on me in front of everyone. About MY ego. Meanwhile this pompous ass is yelling about shit he doesn't even know. I cried half the afternoon. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 13:57:58 (EST)
From: barney Email: None To: Selene Subject: the ego and wrath of Arthur Message: Selene, yes, I also suffered a public humilation from Lord Arthur. I think the unfocused ego he saw in you was a lack of your recognition of his oversized ego. I did not cry because boys don't cry. Arthur, you were an asshole. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 05:46:43 (EST)
From: chr Email: None To: barney Subject: the ego and wrath of Arthur Message: Leave the poor guy alone. I knew him fairly well and I thought he was a nice guy.As time went on he developed a kind of healthy cynicism. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 11:23:59 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: chr Subject: the ego and wrath of Arthur Message: I have been told that Arthur was sent to prison in Thailand for smuggling drugs. I have also been told that Arthur has a heroin addiction and lives in Northern Australia. Whatever shit he laid on people, he seems to be paying for it now. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 11:34:32 (EST)
From: gerry Email: None To: JW Subject: the ego and wrath of Arthur Message: I have been told that Arthur was sent to prison in Thailand for smuggling drugs. So Arthur is the Red Nighty! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 11:37:11 (EST)
From: Selene Email: None To: gerry Subject: the ego and wrath of Arthur Message: Arthur in a nighty makes for a happy Fri. morning image. Sans the suit. A short baby doll nighty. ooooh, Arty baby... yell at me some more please? so manly of you.... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 12:44:59 (EST)
From: barney Email: None To: JW Subject: that's some serious shit! Message: Say it ain't so, Joe! Heroin addiction? Is that good information? If that's true then I feel for the guy. For all of Arthur's alleged ego abuse seeing him end up with that problem does not leave me with a good feeling of just deserts. That's too, too much. As CHR said, he knew the guy well and liked him and said that he became cynical. Actually, Arthur, if you ignore his ego, was a rather interesting person. Maybe there's folks here who know first hand, but heroin addiction is a real sad and sick thing. There's nothing romantic or hip about it. You need it several times a day or else you get really sick. People live under bridges by the freeways when they get this horrible disease. And unless you're smoking it or snorting it, every vein you got becomes horribly scarred (sp?). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 13:38:33 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: barney Subject: that's some serious shit! Message: I got this information from two separate sources, both of whom I respect enormously. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 23:29:29 (EST)
From: Sir Dave Email: None To: barney Subject: that's some serious shit! Message: Just a thought but since Arthur (Param Premanand) used to be one of Maharaji's finest, don't you think that he's owed something by the Lord of the Universe. Like an expenses paid long term and as much as he wants stay in a drug rehab centre. I actually liked Arthur. He was a stuck up pain in the arse at times but he said it like he thought it was and I found him inspirational. Yet another person's potential and talent completely wasted on Maharaji. He could have been much more if he'd gone in a different direction. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 03:46:06 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: that's some serious shit! Message: I've seen him in India attending a program at the Delhi ashram about 5 or 6 years ago. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 16:30:01 (EST)
From: chr Email: None To: JW Subject: the ego and wrath of Arthur Message: His wife has or had a heroin problem.As far as I know he doesn't ,but I heard he took the rap for her. I think it was in Australia,not Thailand .He was certainly living in the tropics of Australia a few years back. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 11:48:00 (EST)
From: John Email: None To: chr Subject: the ego and wrath of Arthur Message: I think that Arthur deserves all these jokes etc. I believe that if he came back and admitted, like all of us have done, that he behaved like an idiot, we would welcome him with open arms. imho Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 05:34:14 (EST)
From: ex-mug Email: jazzer59@hotmail.com To: Selene Subject: Catonics in Kissimmee Message: I had the dubious pleasure of doing security at Kissimmee, and heard a few stories from the honchos - a gang of South American tent thieves who ripped off stuff from the tents whilst GM was satsanging in the evenings,also a few guns were confiscated (any verification on this?). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 12:34:19 (EST)
From: Selene Email: None To: ex-mug Subject: Catonics in Kissimmee Message: Now you know the real reason I missed the procession :) Perfect time to hit those tents. No, I did hear the rumors but have no verification. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 11:29:05 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: ex-mug Subject: Crimes in Kissimmee Message: I was told by Dennis Marciniak, the president of DLM at the time, that charters from South America to the Kissimmee programs were smuggling drugs and that a huge drug trade went on during the Kissimmee festivals. DLM was actively cooperating with the FBI. There were guns involved as well, and, I am told, prostitution. That's the main reason that there were no big outdoor festivals after 1979. There was also lots of drug dealing going on at the Miami satsang hall, and I was told that FBI agents (or maybe DEA agents) were undercover in the hall. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 23:31:15 (EST)
From: Sir Dave Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com To: Gail Subject: There were two processions Message: There must have been two precessions of the Lord in two adjacent years. I think I saw the second one as I remember at the time that people were talking about the previous year's procession. I saw Maharaji dressed in his red Father Christmas/Krishna outfit with his crown on. No mala. He was sitting on a throne that was on top of a motor vehicle, probably a Land Rover and was doing a two hands blessing, one each side as he went passed me. I remember thinking that like the rest of that damn festival, I felt absolutely nothing and wished I was somewhere else. That was the year when I pushed my way to the front to see Maharaji dancing in his mala and was so appalled at the specticle that I slunk off to one of the mobile toilets at the back of the crowd to hide myself away from the brilliance of the Lord. At the end of the festival, Ira Woods retorted that he could not believe that anyone could have been at that festival and not felt something. Yes sure I felt something, I thought - completely freaked out. I left before the main exodus and met a cool businessman on the plane to Atlanta who told me about his business plan. Hey, a real person at last! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 23:56:39 (EST)
From: bill Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: There were two processions Message: Yes I have photos of both. 78/79. But somehow I think that there were two processions during the 79 kissimee. I think for sure that was the case. One with krishna suit, one with the pearl mala. 78 was in a vehicle. 79 was in a two wheeled cart with 2 long poles sticking out the front that instructors walked along carrying and pulling. I was so gonzo I loved the kissimmee events completely. I was kinda like mili/atman das at the time. Only better, or worse. I'll send both photos Jimmie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 19:58:22 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Selene Subject: Psychiatrists at Longbeach Message: You said: What kind of ethical psychiatrist could be a premie? I have to agree with you there!! I wouldn't want a premie messing with my psyche! The possibilities for transference, and cross-transference, the boundary issues, the fundamental discounting that premies have for psychology in the first place, oy vey!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |