Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 35

From: Jan 8, 1999

To: Jan 25, 1999

Page: 3 Of: 5



chr -:- The need for anger -:- Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 17:59:32 (EST)
__Selene -:- The need for anger -:- Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 19:12:22 (EST)
__RT -:- The need for peace -:- Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 22:40:47 (EST)
____chr -:- The need for peace -:- Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 23:18:01 (EST)
______Sir Dave -:- The need for peace -:- Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 02:24:18 (EST)
________chr -:- The need for peace -:- Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 04:42:19 (EST)
________Jean-Michel -:- meditation teachers -:- Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 09:44:24 (EST)
__________chr -:- meditation teachers -:- Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 17:39:32 (EST)
____________RT -:- meditation teachers thanx (nt) -:- Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 17:46:06 (EST)
____________hamzen -:- meditation -:- Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 19:41:17 (EST)
______________chr -:- meditation -:- Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 22:49:04 (EST)
__John -:- very well said! -:- Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 09:49:07 (EST)
__Helen -:- Great post chr (nt) -:- Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 15:54:41 (EST)
____chr -:- Brian,was it you -:- Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 23:02:46 (EST)
______Brian -:- Brian,was it you -:- Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 00:03:55 (EST)
________Katie -:- Brian,was it you -:- Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 01:22:42 (EST)
__________Sam -:- Near Death? -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 04:38:13 (EST)
____________chr -:- Near Death? -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 18:15:46 (EST)
______________Sam -:- chr -:- Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 03:48:33 (EST)
____________Katie -:- Near Death? -:- Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 00:55:46 (EST)
______________ham -:- Near Death?/Sam/Katie -:- Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 01:14:50 (EST)
________________Sam -:- To ham -:- Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 03:46:07 (EST)
______________Sam -:- To Katie -:- Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 03:39:47 (EST)
________________Katie -:- To Sam -:- Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 13:40:50 (EST)
__AJW -:- The need for anger -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 09:02:51 (EST)
____gerry -:- The need for anger -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 11:18:12 (EST)
____chr -:- The need for anger -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 17:14:56 (EST)
______Helen -:- The need for anger -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 20:30:58 (EST)

red -:- hello -:- Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 03:39:36 (EST)
__syd -:- scary monsters -:- Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 04:58:06 (EST)
____Red -:- scary monsters -:- Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 20:39:57 (EST)
__Sir Dave -:- hello -:- Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 12:12:28 (EST)
__Robyn -:- hello -:- Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 12:47:40 (EST)

Sir Dave -:- The innocents -:- Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 22:54:32 (EST)

Ben Lurking -:- finding old friends etc -:- Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 22:11:00 (EST)
__CD -:- finding old friends etc -:- Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 23:15:54 (EST)
____Gail -:- Touche, CD and Ben Lurking -:- Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 18:37:25 (EST)
____Ben Lurking -:- finding old friends etc -:- Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 23:28:30 (EST)
______Mike -:- finding old friends etc -:- Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 14:57:34 (EST)

Ben Lurking -:- Max Meindl -:- Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 22:06:59 (EST)

here is the jan 99 -:- publications stuff -:- Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 11:25:28 (EST)
__Orlando -:- So? -:- Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 12:40:58 (EST)
____barney -:- It's all semantics, baby -:- Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 17:11:05 (EST)
____bill -:- So? -:- Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 00:13:40 (EST)
______Orlando -:- YOUR interpretation -:- Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 15:02:54 (EST)
________DAWN -:- YOUR interpretation -:- Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 23:54:44 (EST)
____Gail -:- So? -:- Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 17:47:58 (EST)
______Orlando -:- mmmmhhh... -:- Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 15:00:11 (EST)
________Mike -:- mmmmhhh... -:- Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 18:15:11 (EST)
________Jim -:- mmmmhhh... -:- Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 21:54:34 (EST)
________ham -:- mmmmhhh... -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 01:51:03 (EST)

Sir Dave -:- The discovery of anti-master -:- Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 03:49:38 (EST)
__Jean-Michel -:- The discovery of anti-master -:- Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 05:00:12 (EST)
__op -:- The discovery of anti-master -:- Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 05:35:40 (EST)
____Nigel -:- Charlie is my Darwin -:- Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 08:20:35 (EST)
______Scott T. -:- What IS a Charliehorse? -:- Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 14:32:11 (EST)
________Helen -:- What IS a Charliehorse? -:- Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 19:12:25 (EST)
____Jethro -:- The discovery of anti-master -:- Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 08:27:27 (EST)
______Scott T. -:- God that's great! Thanks. (nt) -:- Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 14:38:35 (EST)
____Jean-Michel -:- M said he's God -:- Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 08:30:53 (EST)
____seymour -:- The discovery of anti-master -:- Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 08:57:38 (EST)
____Jethro -:- 100 mph in the rush hour -:- Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 09:00:26 (EST)
____Helen -:- op, you're a scream -:- Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 10:24:19 (EST)
____wondering about m & k -:- The discovery of anti-master -:- Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 10:46:52 (EST)
____Rick -:- The discovery of anti-master -:- Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 10:57:08 (EST)
____JW -:- The discovery of anti-master -:- Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 17:12:14 (EST)
____Jerry -:- Big M, the survivor -:- Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 17:33:14 (EST)
____CD -:- education of children -:- Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 18:34:17 (EST)
______Jim -:- CD, let's be honest -:- Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 19:01:47 (EST)
________CD -:- yes I'll be honest -:- Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 21:09:32 (EST)
__________Jim -:- yes I'll be honest -:- Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 22:06:19 (EST)
__________gerry -:- undertandable -:- Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 13:51:57 (EST)
____________Jim -:- understandable cuts both ways -:- Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 22:57:34 (EST)
______the hallucinations of -:- single premies without kids -:- Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 00:23:35 (EST)
______Sir Dave -:- education of children -:- Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 01:16:43 (EST)
________CD -:- education -:- Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 04:18:46 (EST)
__________Sir Dave -:- education -:- Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 12:02:45 (EST)
________Helen -:- education of children -:- Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 09:53:52 (EST)
__________Sir Dave -:- education of children -:- Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 03:12:55 (EST)
____________Helen -:- relationships with children -:- Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 09:49:58 (EST)
______syd -:- peace and meditation -:- Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 04:47:13 (EST)
______Mike -:- TO CD -:- Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 09:52:39 (EST)
__JW -:- Well Said Sir Dave (nt) -:- Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 17:07:30 (EST)

Malibu mole -:- News from marble palace -:- Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 16:55:34 (EST)
__JW -:- News from marble palace -:- Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 17:03:01 (EST)
____Selene -:- News from marble palace -:- Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 17:28:58 (EST)
____Orlando -:- Because -:- Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 20:54:51 (EST)
______gerry -:- Because -:- Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 23:32:14 (EST)
______Malibu mole -:- Because -:- Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 23:51:35 (EST)
______Scott T. -:- Because -:- Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 00:53:51 (EST)
________Orlando -:- relax... -:- Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 09:25:59 (EST)
__________Scott T. -:- relax... -:- Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 09:54:08 (EST)
__Mike -:- News from marble palace -:- Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 19:05:21 (EST)
__bill -:- what about this one? Mole -:- Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 11:05:56 (EST)

Erika -:- Interesting phenomenon -:- Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 15:32:02 (EST)
__bill -:- remember YOUR words? -:- Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 15:44:22 (EST)
__Mike -:- Interesting phenomenon -:- Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 15:52:02 (EST)
__Sir Dave -:- Interesting phenomenon -:- Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 16:04:15 (EST)
____Jerry -:- Very nice, Sir D -:- Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 19:26:16 (EST)
__Angry, Vindictive, Ex -:- You Are So Right -:- Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 16:13:47 (EST)
____Mike -:- Well said, vindict....(nt) -:- Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 16:15:51 (EST)
______Minnesota housewife -:- It's just not for me -:- Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 20:50:33 (EST)
________Minnesota housewife -:- It's just not for me -:- Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 20:53:09 (EST)
________Robyn -:- It's just not for me -:- Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 22:47:53 (EST)
__Katie -:- Dear Erika -:- Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 16:19:51 (EST)
____Jerry -:- Here, here! -:- Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 19:45:55 (EST)
____Robyn -:- Dear Erika/bravo Katie! (nt) -:- Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 22:52:48 (EST)
______Helen -:- Great post, the Divine -:- Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 23:45:57 (EST)
________Gail -:- Great post, Katie--THANKS (nt) -:- Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 23:54:06 (EST)
__barney -:- Interesting phenomenon -:- Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 16:32:32 (EST)
____gerry -:- Hey baby! -:- Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 16:42:58 (EST)
______Mike -:- gerry, gerry, gerry -:- Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 16:49:25 (EST)
________gerry -:- gerry, gerry, gerry -:- Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 17:00:36 (EST)
__________Mike -:- ooooooooooooohhhh (nt) -:- Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 17:08:28 (EST)
__________Selene -:- gerry, gerry, gerry -:- Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 17:37:41 (EST)
____________gerry -:- oo baby, baby -:- Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 17:43:15 (EST)
______________selene -:- oo baby, baby -:- Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 17:45:20 (EST)
__barney -:- Interesting phenomenon -:- Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 17:24:18 (EST)
____Katie -:- Thanks, barney... -:- Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 17:45:11 (EST)
__Gail -:- Interesting phenomenon -:- Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 23:24:42 (EST)
__dv -:- Erika Anderson?nt -:- Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 00:44:53 (EST)
____Seymour -:- Erika - another response -:- Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 08:09:22 (EST)
__Jim -:- Tell us about your brother -:- Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 19:28:31 (EST)
__syd -:- Interesting phenomenon -:- Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 05:28:11 (EST)
____seymour -:- Interesting phenomenon -:- Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 06:45:24 (EST)
______syd -:- mutual appreciation soc. :-) -:- Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 06:50:45 (EST)
____Helen -:- Interesting phenomenon -:- Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 10:25:28 (EST)

Mike -:- Can I ask a question or two? -:- Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 13:37:29 (EST)
__Helen -:- When is enough for GM -:- Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 00:01:07 (EST)
__bill -:- Can I ask a question or two? -:- Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 11:07:43 (EST)

Jim -:- Letter to Jon Cainer -:- Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 22:12:04 (EST)

Shoe -:- Inverness -:- Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 21:22:41 (EST)
__Sir Dave -:- Inverness -:- Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 22:07:36 (EST)
____Sir Dave again -:- Inverness -:- Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 05:03:53 (EST)
____syd -:- Inverness -:- Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 15:36:07 (EST)
______Sir Dave -:- Inverness -:- Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 16:18:28 (EST)
__syd -:- Andy Cox -:- Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 06:30:24 (EST)
____bill -:- Andy Cox -:- Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 12:58:44 (EST)
______syd -:- diesel (ot) -:- Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 15:33:08 (EST)
________anonomousie -:- diesel (ot) -:- Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 01:48:13 (EST)
__Salah -:- Oh Boy what fun then -:- Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 09:06:44 (EST)
____Jethro -:- Oh Boy what fun NOW -:- Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 12:07:37 (EST)
____Shoe -:- Oh Boy what fun then -:- Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 19:11:01 (EST)
__Bobby -:- Clive Goodenough -:- Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 14:36:03 (EST)


Date: Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 17:59:32 (EST)
From: chr
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The need for anger
Message:
This really belongs with the discussion 'Why be angry' that included AJW and others, but by the time I got back to the forum it had fallen off into the inactive threads.Perhaps its also an attempt at addressing the posts of some of the active premies.
For me anger has been a necessary part of defining myself as separate from M and his influence.Initially after I left, I couldn't be angry with M. In fact I still defended him, even though I didn't want to follow him. A whole view of life,a complete persona had been developed and moulded by M and his organisation from the age of 21 to 36.It was like a thorn that had taken root deep in my being.It wasn't until I was able to get angry with M ,that I was really able to move on. And then all the events and situations that I had rationalised and pushed under the carpet came rushing back for me to re-examine.I even used to have dreams where I walked into his office and told him to get the fuck out of my life.
Before receiving K I had a genuine thirst for spiritual experience.M replaced that with himself.There's been some talk on this forum about atheism--in fact I see M as atheistic.Some of you may remember that at holi in 1979 M gave a satsang where he said God is a myth.He went on to say that only GM is real.( Jim maybe you have a copy of this somewhere?) By that time there was no god for me,only M.Once that happens in your life,it doesn't matter what the master does-smokes,drinks excessively,yells abuse at premies,becomes obsessed with a life of luxury-it all has a reason and its all ok.In fact the yelling of abuse at premies never worried me at the time.Remember that story M told about the devotee who collected firewood and the master abused him and sneered at him and mocked him in front of other devotees? One day he fell into a pit and the master went looking for him.Whenthe half dead devotee was found ,the master told him that he was the only reason the master had incarnated into the world and he was the only one who had really understood who he was etc.You see,everything had an answer,everything could be justified with a story or cliche or saying.The mindset is so insidious,that you don't even realise you're in it.You think you're normal,but you see the world through particular eyes that aren't your own-in a particular framework and paradigm that is very narrow.About a year after I received Knowledge an old girlfriend came to see me.After a while she said she couldn't see me anymore.She felt like she was talking to a facade or a wall comprising M and K.I couldn't see it the time.Now I can and its wonderful to be free of it.
It is a great lie that M is the revealer of the truth within.It is also alie that he is the source of that experience and that it is his grace that allows one to have it.There is an experience within the human heart, but that experience is accessable to anyone.I have experienced it through a variety of ways and a variety of meditation methods-and more strongly than with M.
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Date: Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 19:12:22 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: chr
Subject: The need for anger
Message:
Yes chr! That experience is readily available. We got into a cult because a part of wanted to believe. Wanted to be part of something bigger than what we had seen.
We failed to see it was there all along. Ironic, since that is the very type of msg. he would say in his satsangs, that is has always been there. What a weird, sick twisted individual. He gave the message but didnt' want for one minute for us to go off and live a normal life, using that knowledge. He wanted us right there, putting money in the envelopes.

Anger has it's place. For me it's not so much that I need it. It just happened last year for real. And i have gone with it and discovered a whole new world. and in that world there was this person I had forgotten about. Selene!
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Date: Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 22:40:47 (EST)
From: RT
Email: omm
To: chr
Subject: The need for peace
Message:
You wrote:
I have experienced it through a variety of ways and
a variety of meditation methods-and more strongly than with M.

chr,
I would like to hear more about this! So the Knowledge of all knowledges has been beat! About time the truth was told.

thx

RT
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Date: Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 23:18:01 (EST)
From: chr
Email: None
To: RT
Subject: The need for peace
Message:
You think I should set myself up in the guru business? I could offer 27 techniques ,instead of 4.
The point I'm really making is that each person needs to find their own way in life and experiencing what M calls K is no big deal.Even while I was practising the way M tought,I found some of his directions inhibiting-sticking my fingers on my eyeballs was a sure fire way of taking me out of any experience I might of been having.
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Date: Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 02:24:18 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com
To: chr
Subject: The need for peace
Message:
Dear chr, I'd be very interested to know what these 27 techniques are especially if they don't involve a lot of Hindu mumbo jumbo. I'm serious about this. If there's any of them you'd care to share then please post them here or email me. Thanks.
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Date: Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 04:42:19 (EST)
From: chr
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: The need for peace
Message:
David,I was joking about 27 techniques,but I have had a variety of experiences. I'll put together some things over the next few days and I'll email them to you.
cheers ,chr.
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Date: Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 09:44:24 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: meditation teachers
Message:
what these 27 techniques are especially if they don't involve a lot of Hindu mumbo jumbo.

I've also been practicing other techniques giving much better experiences than m's so-called non-existing 'teaching'.
Vipassana and the traditional budhist meditation techniques (as they are taught to the westerners anyway). I still practice them at time, and they usually give me some wonderful relaxing experiences.
I also did some rebirth sessions and sophrology, which I don't practice anymore, as it seems too much like a non natural experience.
What I've noticed amongst the people who have learned these techniques and practice them, is that some have exactly the same kind of attitude people have with m&k:
- some people come, learn the techniques (it takes some days of practice, as you need to deeply relax in some unusual ways, and many people - like myself - are not familiar with this), and leave with what they've learned. I would say it's very healing because it's helping you to relax deeply, and allows you to have some very deep contact with yourself (I wont say your 'self', because it's not - that's also one of m's abuses).
- and some people stick around the teachers, who are allowing it in a very traditional way (budhism), or more westernized group like the rebirth groups, and constitute groups.
I guess some people need it (or they think so) for various reasons.
These followers behave exactly like the premies, and the member of any cult. They secretly carry the picture of their master, they come to see him whenever they can, they take as many meditation courses as they can, share their 'experience', have friends only inside the group, etc.
I would say that if you still need to learn some meditation/relaxing techniques, you should find the kind of technique that's offered in a way you like. And that you can afford to pay. Vipassana courses are usualy free, you pay only for your food and housing. Rebirth is very expensive.
Make sure that the teacher is qualified and experienced. I think you can know this by talking to people who've attended the courses.
I don't think you'd be able to learn it by yourself. The techniques are discribed in books, but it's not practical, as you'll need someone to explain them to you AS you practice step by step.
M never did this because he hasn't been taught (he was too young). Some 'old' mahatmas would do that long time ago, but they're not around anymore.
I think the meditation techniques m teaches are valid, they are described in many books, but they are not taught properly. You won't be able to go deep into it (some lucky people do), because most people need to be taught step by step.
A good qualified meditation teacher WILL help you to overcome your meditation difficulties, whatever they are. Or advise you to leave it, without any dammage or feeling guilty.
And a meditation teacher will never take advantage of his situation.

The BM is NO qualified teacher, and abuses his followers.
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Date: Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 17:39:32 (EST)
From: chr
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: meditation teachers
Message:
Hi JM,
Where in France do you live? We were there last year and mainly stayed in the Dordogne area,near Sarlat in a little village called Berbiguieres.We fell in love with the area with its wonderful countryside and history.
Anyway, getting back to meditation techniques,I shunned any teachers or organisations after I left M-part of the legacy he left me, I guess. When I left M, about 11 years ago, it was such a wonderful feeling of freedom, that I hadn't felt as happy or excited for years. I still wanted to meditate,but it had been a while since I'd really experienced anything worthwhile. I remembered that when I was about 17 I'd found an old yoga book in a library that described a wonderful light within.The book said to simply concentrate on the point between and just above the eyes.So I lay on my bed and did this-no holy name,no pressing eyeballs,no M. I think it had more to do with the feeling of freedom I was having than anything else,but I went into an experience of golden light.It wasn't just seeing light,it was like an ocean of light and I was part of it and for months afterwards I was able to just go into the exprience. I hadnt experienced anything like this with K.I went on to have some strong out of body experiences and saw aspects of life that went far wider than anything K had shown me-things to do with death and multidimensionality. I started reading avidly and played around with a lot of different methods.
I found that there were ways of enhancing concentration,sometimes just simple breathing techniques and I found some techniques of visualisation especially effective. A series of books that had a profound influence on me were ' The Magus of Strovolos' books by Professor Kyriacos Markides about his experiences with an elderly spiritual teacher and healer in Cyprus.I found the meditations in these books particularly useful and practical.
I know some people who have done the Vipassana courses,and they say they are great but I have no experience of them myself.What M is doing,as you say, is a sham-its embarrassing to have been associated with it. Its basically a mixture of a personality cult with washed down yoga techniques and shallow emotionalism.
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Date: Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 17:46:06 (EST)
From: RT
Email: omm
To: chr
Subject: meditation teachers thanx (nt)
Message:
thanks.
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Date: Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 19:41:17 (EST)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: chr
Subject: meditation
Message:
' I remembered that when I was about 17 I'd found an old yoga book in a library that described a wonderful light within.The book said to simply concentrate on the point between and just above the eyes.So I lay on my bed and did this-no holy name,no pressing eyeballs,no M. I think it had more to do with the feeling of freedom I was having than anything else,but I went into an experience of golden light.It wasn't just seeing light,it was like an ocean of light and I was part of it and for months afterwards I was able to just go into the exprience. I hadnt experienced anything like this with K.I went on to have some strong out of body experiences and saw aspects of life that went far wider than anything K had shown me-things to do with death and multidimensionality. I started reading avidly and played around with a lot of different methods.'

Fascinating stuff chr. As a bit of a renegade premie following my own voice/experience, I played around with the techniques, reaching a point where I too had similar experiences of light without using the technique.
It just seemed too coincedental that the techniques mirrored sensory input points of my body. As I was coming to this conclusion it seemed to me that there had to a simple bio-chemical explanation for my experiences, but that it was likely it was the area of my focus & attitude in concentration that might be the key trigger rather than the physical techniques. I can't claim credit for trying it, since my ex had had strong experiences in light and music without practicing the techniques at all since very early after she 'received' knowledge. Think she originally did this after having back problems very early on. Her rationalization at the time was that if this knowledge was for real then if someone had no hands they would still be able to experience it.
I had no experiences that I would class as out-of-body, but did find certain aspects of the sensory areas I was focusing on would be unbelievably enhanced. This built to a point where I had a number of almost unreal sensory experiences.

One was hearing a scream so loud it had to be within no-more than thirty feet of me. The scream appeared to be from no animal that I could recognize, but it seemed it was from a fair sized animal that was in total agony. Tracking the sound down I found it was a moth being butchered by our neighbours cat!

Another one that was almost as peculiar. I was in a restaurant with my mother, I was in a very detached meditative space when I saw a wave pattern leave her body and go across the room. About twenty feet along its journey was a man standing with his tray of food waiting to pay at the till. At the moment it reached him it disappeared. He immediately dropped his tray of food onto the floor. The look of bemusement and embarrassment on his face was a wonder to see, but not as great as the bemusement I was experiencing.

I would be interested to hear how your reality model has been adapted to fit your experiences.
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Date: Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 22:49:04 (EST)
From: chr
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: meditation
Message:
My reality model? Well, it certainly took M out of the picture.It also took away the fear of death and opened me up to new possibilities. Some of the experiences could have been illusory, but I'm not holding them up as a truth, like we all did with K. It has made life an interesting adventure,whereas a kind of stagnation sets in with the whole K thing. M's path seems to me to be a kind of glassy eyed, rosy tongued road to nowhere.
I really like a lot of Jung's work.Some of the archetypes he talks about in the collective unconscious, I saw and experienced.It gives a connection to something wider and universal and a sense of belonging to a continuous thread of history,culture and evolution.
I believe that many of these experiences are far more natural than we think and that some facets of our mind have been allowed to atrophy. Recent studies have shown that,for example, if we dont use the imaginative ,pictorial part of our brains, this part actually becomes smaller-like a muscle that isnt used. The danger in modern society,is that with 24 hr television, video games etc,all the picture creating is being done for us.
My wife is polynesian and her grandfather was telling me about some of his experiences.He didnt learn english until he was 11.He had little contact with western society until he was in his late 30s in WW2. During this time he and a friend were laying pipes for the allies.His friend was 10 or11 miles away down the road and they communicated telepathically with each other.To them it was normal-no big deal.Its interesting that as he became more westernised he lost this ability.Later in life he became a priest, but he always had a reverance for the ways and beliefs of his own people.I've gone off track a little here,but it does fit in with the whole notion that we're only using small amounts of our natural abilities.
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Date: Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 09:49:07 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: chr
Subject: very well said!
Message:
Really, you expressed almost exactly my own experience. Think of how many other ex-premies out there still to wake up to the fact that M is a non-helpful force in one's life.

Re: other spiritual experiences. Yesterday in church, I had an absolutely unbelievably wonderful experience. I heard a terrific talk from this guy who had been involved in the Civil Rights movement here in America since 1954. This guy is not in good health, his body is in terrible shape, he can hardly stand up, but his voice! He still has his voice and man, what a speaker! He was telling about all the other people besides Martin Luther King who have made a difference in forcing change in society. Plus, we all held hands and sang songs. I was in ecstacy.
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Date: Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 15:54:41 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: chr
Subject: Great post chr (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 23:02:46 (EST)
From: chr
Email: None
To: brian
Subject: Brian,was it you
Message:
who had the near death experience? I'd really be interested to hear about it,
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Date: Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 00:03:55 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: chr
Subject: Brian,was it you
Message:
who had the near death experience? I'd really be interested to hear about it,

No, I just look that way in the morning is all. You might be thinking about Bobby. There's a link to his site on the Links page here.
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Date: Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 01:22:42 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: chr
Subject: Brian,was it you
Message:
You might also be thinking about Sir David - he had one too.
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 04:38:13 (EST)
From: Sam
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Near Death?
Message:
So I've been reading the above posts and though I'd chime in. There are many kinds of near death experiences. Back in the 1960's I was a combat medic in Vietnam. I lost my eyesight due to a bomb blast, and was blind for almost 4 years. Six surgical procedures later I regained my eyesight. Going blind was as a near death experience for me. At that time I thought life was never going to be the same again and that a major part of me had died. But instead it was one of the most illuminating times of my life, that is after I got over the initial freak-out, I learned a great deal. I learned you look with your eyes but you see with your awareness. When I was blind I could see things that people with 20/20 vision could'nt see. This was way before my meeting maharaji. Because all I had in front of my eyes at that time were grey swirls of floating stuff. The bomb blast left me with 360 degree retina detachments in both eyes, massive cataract and high glcoumic pressure in both eyes. Now,I don't want to depress people with my story, so I will tell you in ernest and all honesty, being blind was one of the most fascinating times in my life. That is after I adjusted to it. I not only heard what a person was saying when they talked to me but I could feel what they were saying. The passion or lack of passion behind the words. I had nowhere to go but inside, and long before maharaji, it was an incredible experience. When you're blind you're not prejudiced by what a person looks like, the color of their skin or the manner in which they dress. These things usually stop us from connecting with people. But when you're in another demension there's a whole nother criteria of validation. I have also had out-of-body experiences, but that's a whole nother topic. As a combat medic in the army and later an ambulance paramedic in civilian life I've seen hundreds of people die. I've held them in my arms as they were on their last breath, children and adults. Some die with a grimise look on their face, in great fear, like in a horror movie, and others have the look of peace and light in their face. I think it has allot to do with how one has lived their life. Dr.'s Eliabeth Kluber-Ross and Raymond Moody, both Thanotologist, have worked with thousands of dying people and they concur; A person who has lived a stressful life will have a stressful death and viceversa. So I've rambled on a great deal here, I just wanted to chime in. I now have 20/20 corrected vision with contact lenses and I'm doing great taking my sight for granted just like everyone else. Hope my story did'nt depress anyone.
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 18:15:46 (EST)
From: chr
Email: None
To: Sam
Subject: Near Death?
Message:
Great stuff Sam,I'd like to hear more.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 03:48:33 (EST)
From: Sam
Email: None
To: chr
Subject: chr
Message:
Thanks chr, what would you like to hear more about?
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Date: Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 00:55:46 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Sam
Subject: Near Death?
Message:
Hi Sam -
I didn't think your story was depressing - I found it interesting and inspiring. I have bad eyesight - I am really nearsighted which is correctable - and I have recurring nightmares about going blind. I thought the way you described being blind was fascinating. I have developed a bit of that extra sense to compensate for not being able to see well without lenses - I can walk around in the dark without banging into things (usually) and so forth.

I have not read Kubler-Ross, but have read some of Stephen Levine's books on death and dying and really like them. I do think that some people who have had stressful lives find peace at the moment of death, although I guess this is unpredictable. I have had very few experiences with people who were dying - just family members.

Would be interested to hear how you got into Maharaji, if you want to talk about it (you might have already discussed this on the forum and I didn't see it.)

Take care,
Katie
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Date: Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 01:14:50 (EST)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Near Death?/Sam/Katie
Message:
'Hi Sam - I didn't think your story was depressing - I found it interesting and inspiring.'

I'll second that emotion.

I'd also add that even if someone was to post something really depressing would be irrelevant, their reality etc.

Could argue that the reason for this site is completely depressing which is why it is like a continuous therapy session.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 03:46:07 (EST)
From: Sam
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: To ham
Message:
Thanks, I agree. This site has a very useful therapeutic venue. Plus it gives us the opportunity to talk with people around the world who have a shared history, mainly maharaji.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 03:39:47 (EST)
From: Sam
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: To Katie
Message:
Would be interested to hear how you got into Maharji;In 1971 I was in Denver, Colorado USA, many of my friends had gone to Montrose and Boulder, Colorado (two of maharaji's first programs in the U.S.) I was not interested in guru's or spiritual teachers at that time, and I'm still not interested, so I did'nt go. I received 'knowledge' in 1976 after much brow-beating by many of my so-called premie friends who claimed this guy was the lord, etc. etc. etc. I was never looking for the 'lord' a master or teacher, but I was looking for truth, the impetus of my search came out of the confusion I experienced in Vietnam. I do believe the TRUTH OF EACH PERSON'S EXISTENCE lies within themselves, so I believe in self-mastery, but I don't accept mastery over others. I don't believe that anyone is better than anyone else; weather they call themselves perfect master, lord or any other high profile title. I stopped following maharaji because I saw that he was using what was innate to manipulate people. He's got his own agenda which I don't agree with, he lies, he's a control freak, an a egocentric paranoid manipulater. Not to mention I don't want a master! I want the truth, and that I have within me. I was an agnostic when I came to maharaji, and while I do believe in God (monothesis) I don't believe in diety worship, like Jesus Christ, Buddha, Krishna and that sort of thing. They existed but no more special then anyone else. I am also a Son of God, using the level of potential that I've developed, and so are you, in your current human form, a Daughter of God. I don't believe in worshipping people, I do believe in worshipping God, and when M's devotees starting saying guru was greater than God, it was time for me to leave. The teachings should never be more important than the teacher, and at this point maharaji's teachings are very muddled and confused, and that's because he's into his own agenda.
I like the teachings of Hermes Trismegistus, supposingly he lived 10,000 years ago. Now I said I like his teachings, I did not say that I worship him or that I am his follower. So, that's how I got into and out-of Maharaji. Fortunately I was able to break away. I know lot's of people who still follow maharaji, and they are emotionally stuck and in allot of pain. People who are afraid to live or die, what a horrible place to be in. They are afraid to leave Maharaji, but are confused in their subservance to him. And many of them feel helpless and would'nt know what to do if maharaji died before they did. This is the danger of dependence on someone who calls themselves a master over others.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 13:40:50 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Sam
Subject: To Sam
Message:
Thanks for telling your story, Sam. You just seemed like you might have had a bit more discernment and discrimination than most of the rest of us did when we got involved with Maharaji. I do remember that in 1976 Maharaji was promoting himself as a humanitarian leader rather than a master, and the guru part was definitely played down.

You wrote:
I was an agnostic when I came to maharaji, and while I do believe in God (monothesis) I don't believe in diety worship, like Jesus Christ, Buddha, Krishna and that sort of thing. They existed but no more special then anyone else.

I can relate to this, since it's almost how I feel. I'm sort of a theistic agnostic at this point - still trying to figure things out. I don't think I could ever believe in an 'incarnation of God' again - here and now or in the past.

Take care,
Katie
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 09:02:51 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: chr
Subject: The need for anger
Message:
Hi chr

I'm responding to your comments on the 'Why be angry?' thread.

Anger is something that comes by itself and doesn't seem under the control of the will, so in that respect, it's a bit of a daft question. (Yes I know I was the one who asked it).

There are a couple of things that have risen to the surface.

The first is about my own experience. Leaving the cult has been like watching a woollen sweater unravel. I took hold of a tiny loose thread, held onto it, and am still watching it come apart. You said something similar, 'And then all the events and situations that I had rationalised and pushed under the carpet came rushing back for me to re-examine.' This process is still happening for me. Stuff that I took as gospel, like, 'There is always a Perfect Master on Earth, and MJ is the latest in line', in the light of day, turn out to be unsubstantiated garbage. It's a pleasure, and quite uplifting, to watch the crap tumble out. This process has been going on for about six months and is still continuing. Maybe it will stop, and all that will be left is a tangled pile of crinkly wool on the floor. But right now, it's great to watch it unravel. You said you were involved for 15 years, and it was a year before you got mad. I was mentally incarcerated for 28 years, so maybe it will take longer and I will get even madder. Who knows? Did everyone out there who left eventually get mad?

My second point is about Maharaji himself. When I think about him and his role, I go back to when he was six years old and crowned Perfect Master. I really don't know what went on then, but let's take the cynical view. Mataji was instrumental in him assuming his father's roll as a way of controlling DLMs assets. What effect does sticking a six year old on a throne and worshipping him have on that child's personality? And if everyone is telling you how wonderful it is that you're there, being worshipped, and how grateful they are. Throw in the fact that your father has just died and you're supposed to carry on his work. It has echoes of those disgusting parents in America who enter their four year old daughters in beauty contests.

So I see Maharaji as a victim of his family history and politics. I know many people believe he has to take responsibility, and he's old enough now to know what's going on. My own feeling is that he's quite sincere. He really does believe he's the 'Perfect Master', and this is what everyone has been telling him all his life anyway.

Maybe this sounds like what you mentioned, 'defending him but not wanting to follow him', and it's a stage I'm going through, but maybe not.

Early last year I read a book 'Feet of Clay. A Study of Gurus', by a renowned British pyschology professor, Antony Storr. It was very helpful in starting to sort my ideas and feelings out, and the message I got from it was, things aren't black and white. Gurus aren't necessarily Gods or Con-men, and there's a lot of ground in between.

Maybe this time next year I'll lobbing bricks over the fence at Reigate, but right now I'm very happy to watch the pretty picture of the Buddha on my sweater disappear from the bottom up.

Anth.
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 11:18:12 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: The need for anger
Message:
Anth,

You said And then all the events and situations that I had rationalised and pushed under the carpet came rushing back for me to re-examine.' This process is still happening for me.

I left the cult after Millenium and this process is STILL happening to me also. This site, complete with all the wrangling, rancor and outbursts has been instrumental in spotlighting and stripping away mystical and unfounded beliefs for me.

When I first started reading and posting here, I was still ''seeking'' for some spiritual resolution of life's enigmas. Conditioning runs deep, not only the hindu/guru thing but also christianity and other harmful world views. I do firmly believe ''The truth will set me free.''

gerry--swearing off politics for the time being...
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 17:14:56 (EST)
From: chr
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: The need for anger
Message:
Thanks AJW,
I think I probably agree with everything you say.I am aware it is not all black and white.I don't think any of us really know what M thinks about his position or identity.If some people who have been close to M are to be believed,he has oscillated at various times and has had his own personal crises. Ultimately whats important is who we are,not who he is.
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 20:30:58 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: chr
Subject: The need for anger
Message:
That is such a good point, chr. Why the obsessive focus on someone else, the wanting to disappear into someone else?

I guess we were looking for someone to save us and we got our own royal family to focus on, complete with crowns, etc. Well, those who thought he was the Lord were innocent, and misled. They were devotees in love with their Lord, so of course they focused on him. I had a real strong gut feeling that Maharaji was never my Guru--I never felt 'called' to be his devotee in any way, I just pretended because I wanted to have the touted 'experience'. Boy, what an insincere devotee I was. He must have hated my traitorous lips kissing his toesies.
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Date: Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 03:39:36 (EST)
From: red
Email: red@under the bed.com
To: Everyone
Subject: hello
Message:
Been lurking for a couple months now.recieved k in '73 you fanatical ashramers (it seem most people here were) scared the shit outer me.That vacant nobody home look in your eyes.Still I hung round for years.Nicest folk I met were the so called bongos.My wife still goes to events at amaroo.WEnt a few years ago diffrent labels same boring stuff.M stillput me to sleep (I snore loud)love the gossip about M more of it.
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Date: Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 04:58:06 (EST)
From: syd
Email: syd@gold.ac.uk
To: red
Subject: scary monsters
Message:
recieved k in '73 you fanatical ashramers (it seem most people here were) scared the shit outer me.

I was in an ashram in a small UK town (Oxford) for a while in '74. I remember the occasional local premie coming by for satsang. For some reason they didn't come back twice. I guess their mind's just couldn't handle the purity of our words, poor deluded souls.

Nowadays I am very glad that I helped them think again about what they were getting drawn into. It's true what Loudon Wainright wrote about his red guitar - God works in wondrous ways :-)

Syd
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Date: Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 20:39:57 (EST)
From: Red
Email: None
To: syd
Subject: scary monsters
Message:
Don't worry I caught the disease and was just as deluded and fanatical at times,but if people believe this stuff and it doesn't involve hate then so be it.
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Date: Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 12:12:28 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com
To: red
Subject: hello
Message:
We used to scare the shit out of each other, too. It was a self perpetuating horror trip with Maharaji feeding us the lines.
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Date: Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 12:47:40 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: red
Subject: hello
Message:
Dear Red,
Welcome, my goodness there is a lot of red here lately. :) I hope you enjoy it here and get a lot out of the whole site and our discussions and comradery here.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 22:54:32 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com
To: Everyone
Subject: The innocents
Message:
I found the following on usenet:

'During our recent Disney trip my husband and I went to Animal Kingdom. We knew that Asia was opening soon and decided to walk over there. the construction wall was down so we went in. We went into the Maharaji Jungle Trek. As we were walking through we noticed a lot of construction workers walking around. We thought that it was odd, but decided to continue the walk. While my husband was filming one of the animals a cast member walked up to us to asked if we were guests. It turns out that the Maharaji Jungle Trek was not opening until the next day. The manager was unaware that the construction workers took down the construction wall. We had our picture taken in front of the entrance as the first guests to see this exhibit (even before cast members). It was a lot of fun and everyone was real nice about it.' (Posted by ReneJo Barnett.)

They'll never know will they. To them, Maharaji is just part of a Disney theme park. No years trying to surrender to an impossible madness. No sacrificing themselves and their lives at the feet of Maharaji. No guilt nor sense of loss, no angst nor hidden fears for them, no looking back at wasted years, at loves and dreams thrown away and abandoned forever at the feet of a false god.

No hidden and obscure meanings for them for the words, 'joy', 'peace' or 'enjoying life'.

They're happy in their innocence. And so they should be and I hope that Maharaji never means anything more to them than a nice day out at a Disney theme park.
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Date: Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 22:11:00 (EST)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: finding old friends etc
Message:
I arrived at this site awhile back when I was looking for some old freinds -just wondering where some people had gotten to over the years. I have checked the white pages here and enjoy life and some of the other sites my searches have found -does anyone have some other ideas on how I might find people? I am not ready to post here unless its anon. TIA
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Date: Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 23:15:54 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Ben Lurking
Subject: finding old friends etc
Message:
>I am not ready to post here unless its anon.

You should be able to easily find a lot of anonymous people.
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Date: Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 18:37:25 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Touche, CD and Ben Lurking
Message:
A feather in your cap, CD. That was funny!

Dear Ben:

Why not hone your search down to say, your country, state for the US, etc. You could put their names out and see what materializes. If they are devout premies, they probably aren't posting here.

How about this:

Dear Premies and Exs:

I choose to remain anonymous. However, it's a big bad world out here away from MJ's umbrella, and I was wondering if any of my former friends (premies or not) would like to correspond or get together. We had a lot of good times and I miss you.

I live in Oz just next door to Amaroo. The premies have converted my farm into a dustbowl ...

Love,

Guess Who?
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Date: Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 23:28:30 (EST)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: finding old friends etc
Message:
From your post I see we live at the same public email address where everyone in the world can find us -

What I meant to say was I am not ready to post in the 'white pages' or 'journies' and I was asking for other sites where I may go and see if I can find someone. If I see someone I knew and would like to connect with I will try it. I was looking for a little bit of specific help in research - I understand the shotgun approach.

For a lot of reasons i am not ready to place my fallacy of being a follower out in the public for all to know. This does not mean I won't tell people that ask I would just like to control to a certain extent who knows who or where I am. I have figured out from EL that there is a local 'hindu' actve 'premie house' or whatever in my small town. I don't want to meet any of these people online, at my business or any other place. If I post with my work email address anyone can do a whois and have me located within minutes - I haven't had the energy to go get a 'dummy' or blind address. I have communicated with a few people via email from this site.

I asked about Max Meindl because he posted someones name I was a room mate with after I moved out of the ashram and I was just curious if he had found him or kne where he was. Max'es email address in journeys is not current. So if you can give me some constructive help i would appreciate it. Grief and abuse I don't need 3 years of the crap from his followers was enough for this lifetime.
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Date: Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 14:57:34 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Ben Lurking
Subject: finding old friends etc
Message:
Ben: If you wish to remain anonymous until you make contact with some of your old friends, try using a 'public' email provider like HOTMAIL. You can setup a free account and it's a neutral meeting place. Just a thought.....

Additionally, you might try using 'internet' white pages to locate some folks (if you know where they are, generally). Then you can 'shotgun' an email to their accounts and see if anyone bites. Try using locations, times and mutual friends names instead of mentioning M directly. You will likely get fewer 'who the hell is M' type responses that way.
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Date: Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 22:06:59 (EST)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Max Meindl
Message:
I was trying to get intouch with max via his email in journies and it bounced back -does anyone know of his current email ? TIA
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Date: Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 11:25:28 (EST)
From: here is the jan 99
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: publications stuff
Message:
well, some of it anyway.

for those that think rawat is moving away from the lord of the
universe stuff, here is a quote from 'keeping in touch' 1/99.

'You have to renew your relationship with YOUR master again and
again...the sun has to rise every morning...the process of
renewing in nature happens again and again.'
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Date: Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 12:40:58 (EST)
From: Orlando
Email: None
To: here is the jan 99
Subject: So?
Message:
no big whop
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Date: Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 17:11:05 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: It's all semantics, baby
Message:
Looking up the word Master I find the following and most of it seems relatively benign. Interesting are #4 and #5, maybe they are most appropriate.

Furthermore, I don't see the danger of the word Master unless you prefix it with Perfect.

master \Mas'ter\, n. [OE. maistre, maister, OF. maistre, mestre, F. ma[^i]tre, fr. L. magister, orig. a double comparative from the root of magnus great, akin to Gr. ?. Cf. Maestro, Magister, Magistrate, Magnitude, Major, Mister, Mistress, Mickle.] 1. A male person having another living being so far subject to his will, that he can, in the main, control his or its actions; -- formerly used with much more extensive application than now. (a) The employer of a servant. (b) The owner of a slave. (c) The person to whom an apprentice is articled. (d) A sovereign, prince, or feudal noble; a chief, or one exercising similar authority. (e) The head of a household. (f) The male head of a school or college. (g) A male teacher. (h) The director of a number of persons performing a ceremony or sharing a feast. (i) The owner of a docile brute, -- especially a dog or horse. (j) The controller of a familiar spirit or other supernatural being.

2. One who uses, or controls at will, anything inanimate; as, to be master of one's time. --Shak.

Master of a hundred thousand drachms. --Addison.

We are masters of the sea. --Jowett (Thucyd. ).

3. One who has attained great skill in the use or application of anything; as, a master of oratorical art.

Great masters of ridicule. --Maccaulay.

No care is taken to improve young men in their own language, that they may thoroughly understand and be masters of it. --Locke.

4. A title given by courtesy, now commonly pronounced m[i^]ster, except when given to boys; -- sometimes written Mister, but usually abbreviated to Mr.

5. A young gentleman; a lad, or small boy.

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Date: Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 00:13:40 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: So?
Message:
He is still calling for renewal on a daily basis because
as the master of life, part of the lie is that you
can 'be in touch' with him where ever you are.

It is the core lie of the rawat that he is not just a
regular person but is the one that represents whatever god there
is.
Whatever authority on life there is.

He stands there still as the god in person.
His comments and views are to be followed by those
'daily renewing' thier alleged relationship to him.

The 'so' is that the chanting by -passing through- and
enjoying life.com that rawat only shows you something
inside you and thats it, is false.

The message from rawat is that he is god.
as recent as jan 99.
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Date: Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 15:02:54 (EST)
From: Orlando
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: YOUR interpretation
Message:
...is quite interesting and is, of course, totally unrelated to him...this has nothing to do with what is really going on
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Date: Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 23:54:44 (EST)
From: DAWN
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: YOUR interpretation
Message:
I am ahem, drained by the sex scene up in the red series.
So hello, but goodnight.
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Date: Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 17:47:58 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: So?
Message:
If he's not the Lord of the Universe, Orlando, why do you have to keep going to see and SUPPORT YOUR MASTER. Do you have to keep renewing your relationship with your grade one teacher who taught you to read and write? You seemed to take to that discipline alright.

Could it be, as MJ said back in 1978 or so, 'You are like FM receivers and your channel's off. The transmission becomes fuzzy or inaudible. You come to Guru Maharaj Ji, so he can fine-tune your radio so you can hear it again.' WHAT HE SHOULD OF SAID IS THAT YOU HAVE TO COME SEE GURU MAHARAJ JI SO THAT HE CAN BRAINWASH YOU AGAIN. OTHERWISE, YOUR PROGRAMMING WILL FADE.

Speaking of which, did you know that you need to go to the videos at least once a week to reinforce the programming. You don't always get an 'EXPERIENCE'; that's what makes this brand of conditioning so effective. You get high randomly, so you are far more likely to keep trying.

Remember the lull in the cult from 1983 to about 1989. There was not much going on in our little communities; consequently, we had time to finish our degrees, make some kids, get decent jobs, etc. In other words, we got on with our lives. THERE WAS ALSO A LOT LESS SUPPORT FOR THE BIG BRAINSUCKER. All he was getting was his high at infrequent programs, and a lot less cash.

What did he do? He started the video onslaught. We got busy with cult activities again. WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE, ORLANDO.
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Date: Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 15:00:11 (EST)
From: Orlando
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: mmmmhhh...
Message:
Gail,
i am well aware of your take on this whole topic;
here is my take:
a master is a master is a master. you either understand what this means or you don't. there is no point arguing about it.
PS: this whole 'lord of the universe' argument 'is getting quite boring...and it does not mean a thing.
Orlando
drinking coffe with 2 eyes wide open...
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Date: Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 18:15:11 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: mmmmhhh...
Message:
Orlando: You are right.... Anyone calling themselves a 'master,' particularly THE perfect master is the same, is the same, is the same, to wit:

A MALE person having another living being so far subject to his will, that he can, in the main, control his or its actions. (see dictionary definition of 'master' above)

Geeeee, why can't it be a female?
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Date: Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 21:54:34 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: mmmmhhh...
Message:
a master is a master is a master. you either understand what this means or you don't.

A cult is a cult is a cult. You either understand what this means or you don't.
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 01:51:03 (EST)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: mmmmhhh...
Message:
Heh Orlando, you could always go to avoidinglife.org and have a discussion with the folks there, ha ha.
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Date: Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 03:49:38 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com
To: Everyone
Subject: The discovery of anti-master
Message:
A couple of years ago Maharaji poured scorn on the Internet and told people to 'get a life' and not bother with it. Now Maharaji's advocating premies wearing T shirts advertising the premies' web site. And he plugs the web site on every available opportunity.

For many years Maharaji said that people must meditate constantly and indeed, that was the aim of having his Knowledge. These days he tells people they shouldn't meditate constantly.

For many years Maharaji proclaimed himself as being God come in human form and told people that they should surrender to him completely and give their whole lives to him because he was the Lord. Then back in the eighties he said that he definitely was not God and he ridiculed the people who were saying that he was. Nowadays he likes to call himself the master except in India where he still says he is God.

Maharaji tells premies not to worry about their children because 'children bring themselves up'. But his own children got the benefit of an expensive and exclusive private education, payed for by the premies.

Maharaji preaches that his knowledge brings peace and happiness and yet he himself is not a peaceful and happy man and is prone to losing his temper at people and seeking solace in booze, cigarettes and sexual encounters. In short, he doesn't practise what he preaches and he knows it's quite impossible to live by the philosophy which he expounds in his speeches.

He is a hypocrite of the first order and rather than bring peace to the world as he said he would do, he has gathered together a group of people and then divided them. Witness the arguments on this page between ex-premies and current premies. Proof enough that Maharaji does not bring any peace.
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Date: Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 05:00:12 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: The discovery of anti-master
Message:
I would also say that

He is the head of an organization (charity) he's established to support the goals that he claims.

Instead of being totally dedicated to propagate his 'teaching', many of his assistants, paid by Elan Vital, are 100% dedicated to raise funds for his private use, buy gifts for him, and find slaves to work unpaid in his residences.

Elan Vital also covers a lot of activities dedicated to support his lifestyle and his family's.
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Date: Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 05:35:40 (EST)
From: op
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: The discovery of anti-master
Message:
A couple of years ago Maharaji poured scorn on the Internet and told people to 'get a life' and not bother with it. Now Maharaji's advocating premies wearing T shirts advertising the premies' web site. And he plugs the web site on every available opportunity.

'It is not the strongest that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change.'
- Charles Darwin

For many years Maharaji said that people must meditate constantly and indeed, that was the aim of having his Knowledge. These days he tells people they shouldn't meditate constantly.

Actually, in about 1973 he told people to make a distinction between 'formal meditation' and conscious remembrance of 'the word'. Remember the time he spoke about some premies driving in a car, who had been boasting that they'd been meditating the whole trip? M said that if they'd really been meditating, they'd have had an accident long ago - and said, basically, that when you're driving, you DON'T meditate, you keep your eyes on the road. It's a matter of consciousness. And that has not changed.

For many years Maharaji proclaimed himself as being God come in human form and told people that they should surrender to him completely and give their whole lives to him because he was the Lord. Then back in the eighties he said that he definitely was not God and he ridiculed the people who were saying that he was. Nowadays he likes to call himself the master except in India where he still says he is God.

I never heard him ridicule people for loving him. He never stated explicitly 'I [Prem Pal Rawat] am God'. He has praised the Master as an embodiment of divinity, never referring to himself when he says it. And he doesn't call himself God in India, either.

Maharaji tells premies not to worry about their children because 'children bring themselves up'. But his own children got the benefit of an expensive and exclusive private education, payed for by the premies.

Maharaji tells parents that they have to be the ones to stand up for their children. He also has also implied that parents need to lighten up, usually with a view to stop parents from indoctrinating their children, and rather allowing them to develop their own desires, learn their own lessons. He's often joked about formal education, but when talking directly to children and adolescents, has said that it's a necessary part of growing up. As for the education of his children, how it was paid for is M's business, but it certainly did not come out of the pockets of those who donated money for events and the propagation of Knowledge.

Maharaji preaches that his knowledge brings peace and happiness and yet he himself is not a peaceful and happy man and is prone to losing his temper at people and seeking solace in booze, cigarettes and sexual encounters. In short, he doesn't practise what he preaches and he knows it's quite impossible to live by the philosophy which he expounds in his speeches.

Again, David, I think you take too many liberties here. Previously, you stated explicitly that M never practices the meditation he teaches. Here you claim to know his temperament and his personal habits. You state as fact some rumors that have been spread around this page. Have you lived with him, that you know these to be true?

He is a hypocrite of the first order and rather than bring peace to the world as he said he would do, he has gathered together a group of people and then divided them. Witness the arguments on this page between ex-premies and current premies. Proof enough that Maharaji does not bring any peace.

When one trods on another's foot, the one trodden upon will cry out. It's a natural response. It has nothing to do with 'peace', unless you feel that the only creature that is at peace is one that doesn't budge or respond when stricken. In my book, that creature is either an idiot, or dead.
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Date: Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 08:20:35 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: op
Subject: Charlie is my Darwin
Message:


'It is not the strongest that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change.'
- Charles Darwin


op, this is funny. I mean, really funny. I'm almost speechless... Using a quote from a genius like Darwin to support Prem Rawat (a non-scientific gooroo with a prehistoric philosophy). I mean, I would love to know what Darwin would have thought of M. What do you imagine he might have said about someone who keeps going on - 150 years after Natural Selection was first outlined - about 'The Creator' who placed us all here for a 'purpose', namely to 'realise Knowledge'?

Darwin and Thomas Huxley used to give the Spiritualists, Creationists and hokum peddlars like M one hell of a hard time, so I think we could be pretty sure he would be very annoyed about being quoted so far out of context.

For god's sake try quoting Kabir or somebody next time, and leave Darwin out of it, please..
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Date: Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 14:32:11 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: What IS a Charliehorse?
Message:
Nigel:

I think op intends to say that Maharaji is not God, and that he adapts to change and is therefore 'robust.' M adapts to change rather grudgingly, to say the least. So, if he's not God, and he's not especially adaptive (compared to you and me, but not the fencepost) then why, pray tell, would one follow him (rather than you and/or me)? Here, I think his argument is pretty weak. He ought to drop everything and start sending me checks. Better yet, just send me your Visa number, op. I can fix you up with some updated meditation techniques, a global philosophy, and a regime of infinite deniability. What more could you ask?

-Scott
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Date: Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 19:12:25 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: What IS a Charliehorse?
Message:
Excellent argument, Scott . I think GM goes kicking and screaming into change, and as for survivability let's put him out into the wilderness and see how well he survives
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Date: Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 08:27:27 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: op
Subject: The discovery of anti-master
Message:
'Actually, in about 1973 he told people to make a distinction between 'formal meditation' and conscious remembrance of 'the word'. Remember the time he spoke about some premies driving in a car, who had been boasting that they'd been meditating the whole trip? M said that if they'd really been meditating, they'd have had an accident long ago - and said, basically, that when you're driving, you DON'T meditate, you keep your eyes on the road. It's a matter of consciousness. And that has not changed.'

Here are a couple of quotes that I personally heard from your keeper.

'If you miss one breathe without remembering the word, you are dead, dead'

'If you are on the word when you are driving, you can drive thru the rush hour at 100 mph and you wouldn't crash'.

Your comments typify cult selective thinking.
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Date: Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 14:38:35 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: God that's great! Thanks. (nt)
Message:
(nt)
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Date: Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 08:30:53 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: op
Subject: M said he's God
Message:
Sorry op, you're a liar, you know it, you've heard it from m's mouth and read it on my site, and anybody will be able to read some of m's quotes where he said he's God, the superior power in flesh, etc

M said he's God'

Why do you keep opening your stupid mouth? Your Lord will end up getting mad with you!!
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Date: Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 08:57:38 (EST)
From: seymour
Email: None
To: op
Subject: The discovery of anti-master
Message:
Hello op,
I am afraid I find myself in disagreement with your well meant defense of the practise of knowledge and Maharaji.
Regarding constantly meditating by remembering the holy name, i.e. focusing your attention on your breathing rather than thinking; while I was at college I attended two different knowledge reviews by Prakash bai and Gurucharnand. At both these I was concerned that whilst I was studying I was not able to meditate at the same time and asked what should I do when my daily life was occupied with reading and analysing texts about various subjects which were nothing to do with knowledge or spiritual matters. Both times I was told ' It is very simple you must do satsang, service and meditation' when I asked whether I should be trying to meditate on holy name (now called technique no.#) whilst studying, I was told again that Guru Maharaji could not have made things clearer or simpler and that if I just followed the commandments I would not have to ask these questions. As the commandments included constantly meditate on the holy name, I assumed this is what was meant but found it so difficult to do both that I ended up dropping out of college. Are you saying that I, and lots of other premies, misinterpreted these commandments? It was always hard to get a straight answer out of the mahatmas but I remember feeling that all I wanted to do was whatever I was supposed to do to be a good premie.
You quote Charles Darwin regarding the willingness to change, but the practise of knowledge was supposed to be the one unchanging thing in this fickle Universe and was meant to provide a stable life that could not be found in the ways of the world. Has this now changed and are you to expect anything to happen regarding the practise of knowledge. At least, given the many changes that have happened over the years, this is a more honest reflection of it.
As far as him never saying that he was God, I have to disagree. Along with the documentary evidence, I have sat in front of him many times when he not only said that he was the supreme being but even that he was greater than God. I cannot understand how you have missed any of these satsangs.
You say He has praised the Master as an embodiment of divinity, never referring to himself when he says it but what does that mean? If the master is an embodiment of the divinity - is he not the master? If not who is? I would be very interested to know what you think about this. Is he not the Satguru anymore? - The tree that stands alone amongst the weeds that are the 'false prophets' that I have heard him talk about.
As for the more down to earth topic of money you say . As for the education of his children, how it was paid for is M's business, but it certainly did not come out of the pockets of those who donated money for events and the propagation of Knowledge
I'm glad to hear it, but how can you be so sure? When I was a premie I never saw Maharaji doing any work that provided him with an income. He seemed to rely on donations from the 'devotees' who, like myself were only too willing to give to the person they saw as the source of everything.
How do you see Maharaji these days? Another human being that happens to know how we can get the most out of life? A Wise man, prophet, saint, teacher, expert on the human condition .... ?
Look forward to reading your response.
Cheers
Seymour.
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Date: Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 09:00:26 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: op
Subject: 100 mph in the rush hour
Message:
'Actually, in about 1973 he told people to make a distinction between 'formal meditation' and conscious remembrance of 'the word'. Remember the time he spoke about some premies driving in a car, who had been boasting that they'd been meditating the whole trip? M said that if they'd really been meditating, they'd have had an accident long ago - and said, basically, that when you're driving, you DON'T meditate, you keep your eyes on the road. It's a matter of consciousness. And that has not changed.'

Here aer a couple of things that I personally heard your keeper say.

'You should constantly remember the Word, if you miss one breathe you are dead, dead'

'If you are remembering the Word while you are driving, you can drive 100mph thru the rush hour withour ant danger'.

I also remember driving one of his iniotiators(Matthias from Switzerland) whos used to cover my eyes over when I was driving.

Your comments typify cult selective thinking.
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Date: Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 10:24:19 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: op
Subject: op, you're a scream
Message:
Regarding the Darwin quote, I'd say Maharaji's 'responsive to change' all right--the kind that jingles in his pocket (Yuk, yuk, ain't that funny, now?). I would say all of his 'changes' of mind during this whole trip are calculated towards what will make him the most money.

When businesspersons in positions of leadership change their minds, usually it is due to market forces. GM is no different. You have a very material perspective when it comes to your guru that I find to be hilarious. You seem to follow a spiritual path dictated by market forces without any qualms about it--it's so 90's I simply love it. You provide me with lots of laughs.

I just about died that time you said that it was a 'fixed Judeo-Christian idea of a Guru' that we should expect Maharaji to be faithful to his wife. If indeed he had been unfaithful, You felt we should forgive him his 'occasional roll in the hay'. I couldn't believe my eyes as I read that. This is what your spiritual journey has been reduced to?? This is the culmination of many lifetimes of searching for God??

Maharaji is lucky to have you hanging in there, defending him at every twist and turn, through every whim of his business career. You & he will have many wonderful, blissful times together I'm sure. Your diminished expectations of a Master and his ever-changing business plan are a match made in heaven.
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Date: Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 10:46:52 (EST)
From: wondering about m & k
Email: None
To: op
Subject: The discovery of anti-master
Message:
Excuse me if I'm misunderstanding you op, but doesn't this mean that any statement he makes is meaningless, since he could change his position to completely the other end of the spectrum tomorrow, but imply it is still the truth he is speaking.
Surely you're implying that everything he says is worthless.
Since he is the only person with the authority to speak about knowledge, I am left a little baffled.

Someone less interested in maharaji and knowledge by the minute.
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Date: Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 10:57:08 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: op
Subject: The discovery of anti-master
Message:
You're wrong, op. Maharaji is a fraud, a con, and a liar. His knowledge is an empty bag of air. He has nothing and preys on people's weakness'.

And you, op. You are a fraud, and a con, and a liar, just like we all once were--protecting your fragile little reality that gives you a respite from an uncertain world. What could be more pathetic than an old person who's learned nothing?

It doesn't take a brainiac to figure out what Maharaji has said in the past and that it was bullshit. Nor does it take a rocket scientist to see he's contradicting himself now.

What kind of fool would buy the garbage you sell?
Rick
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Date: Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 17:12:14 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: op
Subject: The discovery of anti-master
Message:
- and said, basically, that when you're driving, you DON'T meditate, you keep your eyes on the road. It's a matter of consciousness. And that has not changed.

This is bullshit and you know it, OP. Guru Maharaji's COMMANDMENT (one of four, or was it five?) was:

CONSTANTLY MEDITATE AND REMEMBER HOLY NAME

Yes, there was a distinction between formal meditation, when you have your eyes closed and couldn't drive, and following your breath during all your daily activities. This has most definitely changed.
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Date: Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 17:33:14 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: op
Subject: Big M, the survivor
Message:
'It is not the strongest that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change.'
- Charles Darwin


What are you trying to say here, op, that Maharaji is an adaptive animal, realizing that he is doomed if he doesn't bring himself up to date? That's an odd concern for somebody who once claimed to be 'greater than God'. Don't you think?
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Date: Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 18:34:17 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: op
Subject: education of children
Message:
Your clarification of the education issue is right on!

It is amazing how people peddle ignorance for facts.

The point has been that children need to develop their true potential rather than be spoon fed by the elders who 'know better'. Education is certainly worthwhile as long as the proper perspective of what is geing taught is maintained.

A major point of the knowldedge has always been self discovery through the simple process of focusing on the 'nothingness' inside. This apparent 'nothingness' turns out to have a wealth of lessons in its infinite essence.
Rational logic and rote teaching have their place but are not the tools of ultimate understanding. They are often used to repress that understanding. I value my own 7 years spent in university education. I side with those who proclaim that the more you know the more you know how little you really know. Luckily, the fact that we exist at all does not depend on any of our explanations. I expect the great debates of logic and scientific fascination to go on forever. Fortunately peace can be attained without a rationalization. And yes, peace does begin with each individual.

Cheers,
CD
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Date: Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 19:01:47 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: CD, let's be honest
Message:
. Fortunately peace can be attained without a rationalization. And yes, peace does begin with each individual.

Chris,

When you called me at New Year's I felt sorry for you. Far from being a 'peaceful' or 'fulfilled' person, you struck me as someone so tied up you could barely utter a sentence. You said some ridiculous things -- as you always do here -- but there, in an actual conversation, I could follow up so much more easily. Like, you said your silly thing about words being 'ambiguous'. I reminded you that people get around the vagueness of words all the time by checking with each other as the conversation continues. You seemed so stymied by that obvious point, it was almost touching. Like your big, big defense against honest communication suddenly looked a little thin.

Throughout the entire conversation, Chris, you struck me as a very repressed, shy and awkward fellow. Unable to do much more than sit on your end of the phone and smile a bit. Nerves, Chris? Or cultification?

Look, I'm not writing this to hurt you particularly. I just want to point out something that others here might not know and which this medium tneds to obscure. Being in this cult robs one of vitality. You seemed so shy, so tepid, so frightened and tentative. Okay, maybe not frightened. Maybe that's a bit much. But robust? Give me a break, Chris. You sound liek a real cipher.

So are you the model of the future man? Is this what 'peace' looks like? Moronic, hackneyed aphorisms? Shy, little smiley faces afraid of their own shadow?

I feel sorry for you, bud.

By the way, what did you study in your seven years of university? Which course taught you the wisdom of not using your mind?

I honestly feel a mix of things about you Chris: pity for the mess you've made of your mind, anger at your cult-trained hypocisy and repugnance at the reminder you are of what I, too, might have turned in to.

So, what shall we talk about next New Year's?
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Date: Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 21:09:32 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: yes I'll be honest
Message:
>When you called me at New Year's I felt sorry for you. Far from being a 'peaceful' or 'fulfilled' person, you struck me as someone so tied up you could barely utter a sentence.

Jim Heller,

You continue to play the jerk lawyer role well!
And I might add you have great potential as a back stabber.

I took the initiative to give you a call.
My intent was for a polite social encounter not a verbal wrestling match. I have nothing bad to say about our conversation since I did not assess winner and loser. I was even foolish enough to consider that the call was a moderate success in communication.
You have forgotten what social is in the midst of your obsession.
Apparently the phone call was a waste of my time. Except that it has given you a reason to once again make a public fool of your own character.
I'll certainly take this new outburst of yours into consideration regarding my future actions with respect to you.

CD
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Date: Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 22:06:19 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: yes I'll be honest
Message:
Chris,

It's got nothing to do with being a lawyer and everything to do with having some asshole try to tell me that my mind is a waste of time. Fuck you.
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Date: Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 13:51:57 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: undertandable
Message:
CD,

I could easily understand your being a bit tenative and yeah, maybe a little intimidated talking to Jim. He is an excellent debator. I thought it was great that you called him up, though. You seem like a nice person, even if we disagree about M. I dislike seeing you so abused here and apologise for my part in it.
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Date: Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 22:57:34 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: understandable cuts both ways
Message:
CD,
I could easily understand your being a bit tenative and yeah, maybe a little intimidated talking to Jim. He is an excellent debator. I thought it was great that you called him up, though. You seem like a nice person, even if we disagree about M. I dislike seeing you so abused here and apologise for my part in it.


Chris,

I, too, feel bad about giving you shit. I honestly do. Ask Laurie. But here are some things you should consider:

1) You are against the mind. You pay lip service to its benefits but, for all intents and purposes, you're clearly against it. You refuse to apply it to issues or, if you don't, you hide that application. Plus, you advocate a state of being that almost obviates the need for a mind.

2) I HATE this attitude. The problem, of course, is that you won't use your mind to discuss, or maybe even consider, what's wrong with it.

3) You're quite aware of this fact yet you still enjoy coming here and posting your pro-m propoganda always making it look, at first blush, as if you're here to reason. Any new person to the forum might be forgiven for thinking they could start a conversation with you, know what I mean? Those of us who've been here a while know what a false expectation that would be.

You use the mind to criticize the mind. AND you're a coward because you refuse to even acknowledge that obvious paradox.

4) If my approach to you is wrong, tell me, what approach would you reccommend? But, of course, this is a joke, I expect. You probably won't answer. You know, CD, I've always laughed at the term 'passive aggressive' but I think that is exactly what you're like here. Yes, I feel bad for calling you down, but not bad enough to stop. Sorry.
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Date: Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 00:23:35 (EST)
From: the hallucinations of
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: single premies without kids
Message:
lets teach the little one that there is 'nothingness'
inside and that it has an 'infinite essence'.

Unexplained and unrealized of course.
And while we are at it, lets let prem rawat tell them he is
the master of life and we should renew daily our relationship with him.
At the bar during happy hour perhaps.
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Date: Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 01:16:43 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: education of children
Message:
I'll copy your post out and show it to Miss Price, next Friday. Miss Price is my youngest daughter's teacher and I've been helping her teach the class reading and writing.

Perhaps things are different in America than here in Britain. Getting children well educated at all is a major feat and a substantial achievement. In the class, you can immediately pick out the children who come from good homes and those who are worse off. It's a crucial time for some children because some of them could go the wrong way and end up as criminals. Teachers have their work cut out and they have to concentrate on the basics.

I don't think childhood is the time to teach the sort of stuff that premies swallowed. Children are a blank sheet. Teach them how they can communicate well and develope relationships. That and the basics of reading, writing and maths. Encourage and give them great credit for their pursuits which they are enthusiastic about. Give them plenty of positive appreciation and a good feeling about themselves. Such things are of prime importance and often missed out by parents and teachers.

The bringing up and the education of children is an awesome resposibility because it will affect them for their whole life. A strong grounding in self esteem and the ability to communicate and play and enjoy others' company and pursue interests with enthusiasm and encouragement is the most important thing. That sets them up for life.
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Date: Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 04:18:46 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: education
Message:
Your direction sounds positive.

I would include playing a musical instrument and art as important areas for children to be introduced to in school.

>Teachers have their work cut out and they have to concentrate on the basics.

There is a balancing act between teaching rote arithmetic and learning about the mysterious aspects of mathematics. They both have their value. And a box of good marbles can be a distraction to concentration on either matter.

Teachers and education are certainly not given the support required. We would rather shoot off cruise missiles.

All of us can benefit from education as long as we even have a fraction of our life remaining.
Who knows? We might even learn something!

Give my best wishes to Miss Price in her teaching efforts.
Since my girlfriend is a nurse who looks after and saves people with extremely serious illnesses, I hear quite a lot about how difficult the real world is.

CD
www.cdickey.com
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Date: Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 12:02:45 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: education
Message:
I agree that the teaching of music and the learning to play an instrument and read music is important. Unfortunately it is not stressed enough over here despite us being the home of popular music. I'll certainly be encouraging my children to learn to play as well as listen to music, if they show an interest. Well I think all children show an interest but it has to be chanelled at the right time.
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Date: Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 09:53:52 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: education of children
Message:
Here here Sir D. On the frontlines in education, one realizes that the best thing one can do is to arm kids with practical skills for life and with the ability to COPE well with life's inevitable adversities. Also, I AM directive with my kid about right & wrong (stealing, lying, cheating) etc. The loosey-goosey permissive style of parenting of the 70's was to not suppress the child--let him or her 'flower' on his/her own. Well, this resulted in a lot of confused kids going through hard lessons because they had no moral framework with which to navigate.
Imagine Maharaji trying to teach right and wrong to our kids--I shudder at the thought. You are so right that kids can so easily go the wrong way these days --in a society where violence, kids with no consciences, drugs, & babies having babies is rampant.

Teaching children to pray, or to meditate is fine I think, but the other 99.9% of their lives are engaged in REAL PRACTICAL LIFE, SURVIVAL, RELATIONSHIPS, SOLVING PROBLEMS--so we damn better prepare them for that. As far as 'lightening up' about parenthood, that's always a good idea, but I never want to become too lightened up about it--parenting is serious business.
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Date: Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 03:12:55 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: education of children
Message:
Try telling a children to meditate when they are dying to go ice-skating or swimming or when they are fighting with each other over who owns a particular Barbie doll. I think we have to adjust to what is important to them in order to better understand them. Meditation is certainly not for any children I know.

It was a real gas for my six year old to have me in the classroom teaching the class reading. I'd advise any parent, if they can, to enter the world of your children at school for a time. It gave me some great insights into how they're being taught and what goes on there.
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Date: Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 09:49:58 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: relationships with children
Message:
I agree that understanding children is very important. This is why, IMO, the relationship with them takes continual cultivation. I had a feeling from CD's post that he didn't have any of his own.

I agree that spending time in the classroom is important. A lot of parents don't have a clue how hard teachers' work is, all the things they do to prepare, etc. ALso, Oftentimes your child is completely different in a school setting from the way she is at home. It's pretty cool to see.
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Date: Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 04:47:13 (EST)
From: syd
Email: syd@gold.ac.uk
To: CD
Subject: peace and meditation
Message:
Luckily, the fact that we exist at all does not depend on any of our explanations. I expect the great debates of logic and scientific fascination to go on forever. Fortunately peace can be attained without a rationalization. And yes, peace does begin with each individual.

CD, I agree with this but must question what this has to do with being part of a specific group other than the human race.

A brief discussion:

1. Q: Does meditation always give an experience of inner peace?

A: Evidently not. There are many people who never experienced anything in meditation although this does not necessarily mean that all meditaion techniques are a fraud.

2. Q: OK then, does meditation ever give anyone anything?

A: Yes. Some people have had deep experiences of inner peace while meditating. I had one such experience myself and I am unlikely to be the only one.

3> Q: Do you need m's techniques or follow m to experience this?

A: Nope. The techniques are part of a broad tradition taught to m as part of a known lineage of meditation teachers. They are not a proprietry product. Many people have an inner experience through meditation who are in no way connected to m or his teachings.

One of the major fallacies of your arguments is that you take generalised statements yet treat them as if they are specific to m and k. m's use of kabir or that premie self-parody on alt.cult.maharaji who keeps quoting ancient scriptures are doing the same thing.

When I first tried repairing relationships with people after leaving dlm (as it then was) I called this 'the premie answer' - a self-referring belief system. Tautology.

Comments?

Syd
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Date: Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 09:52:39 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: TO CD
Message:
CD: You said, 'This apparent 'nothingness' turns out to have a wealth of lessons in its infinite essence.'

Again, I will ask the questions: How do you KNOW that it is infinite? What, EXACTLY, ARE those lessons? In terms of education, you should be able to be QUITE SPECIFIC with your answers!

Did it ever occur to you that the thing you are meditating on is definitely FINITE and LIMITED? Did it ever occur to you that IT is NOTHING, at all?
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Date: Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 17:07:30 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Well Said Sir Dave (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 16:55:34 (EST)
From: Malibu mole
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: News from marble palace
Message:
Premies here are freaking out.
Almost nobody called anymore for service at the res.
Why?

Any idea?
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Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 17:03:01 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Malibu mole
Subject: News from marble palace
Message:
Maybe because anything less than flattering that is seen or overheard might show up the next day on the internet?

Maybe Maharaji is getting even more paranoid that he already was?

Or maybe it was just that the premies were doing a crummy job cleaning the gold toilets.
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Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 17:28:58 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: News from marble palace
Message:
Maybe they were sneaking too much cognac.
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Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 20:54:51 (EST)
From: Orlando
Email: None
To: Malibu Mole
Subject: Because
Message:
...we have finally figured out who you are, dear good old mole
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Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 23:32:14 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: Because
Message:
Oh bullshit, Orlando you fucking. lying pussy. You have NO idea who the Mole is. Your lame attempt at intimidation has failed. You lose again, sucker.
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Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 23:51:35 (EST)
From: Malibu mole
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: Because
Message:
No you don't, and the almighty is NOT so almighty!

Lots of rumors in Malibu.
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Date: Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 00:53:51 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: Because
Message:
Orlando:

...we have finally figured out who you are, dear good old mole

You guys are really impressive. Only took you, what, TWO YEARS! Have you considered the CIA as a career?

-Scott
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Date: Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 09:25:59 (EST)
From: Orlando
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: relax...
Message:
hey kids....i was just KIDDING!
everybody else was joking around i thought i could make a joke too...my mistake i guess...too much paranoia around....
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Date: Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 09:54:08 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: relax...
Message:
Orlando:

I have a friend who was a scientologist auditor, who defected. In his case paranoia is not misplaced. But Scientology is more than a religion. It is an ideology/religion, so it has an agenda or prescription for the world that it intends to carry out... like Marxism. DLM/EV is not in this category, and in my opinion is therefore far less dangerous. While they talk about world peace their agenda can't be rationalized in a general sense. Hence, it doesn't motivate ideologically. Maharaji, however, rationalizes it himself, for his own personal gain. That's corrupt, and it does harm people (IMHO). But paranoia about DLM/EV is misplaced. The leader is not a zealot, at least not a sincere one.

-Scott
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Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 19:05:21 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Malibu mole
Subject: News from marble palace
Message:
MM: Maybe we went too far with the house-plans, eh?
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Date: Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 11:05:56 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Malibu mole
Subject: what about this one? Mole
Message:
Is chris standerwick still going up there?
He would be one of the last to go I would guess.
And he would freak out the worst perhaps.
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Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 15:32:02 (EST)
From: Erika
Email: PROTEUS@netstep.net
To: Everyone
Subject: Interesting phenomenon
Message:
It's fascinating to me, reading through this website. It demonstrates an aspect of human behavior I've often noted in other contexts; the tendency to demonize what we no longer like, agree with or believe. For example, instead of saying 'my ex-wife (husband) and I just couldn't make it work,' or 'that job wasn't really a good fit for me,' or 'I don't understand Republicans (dogcathers, morticians).' -- people have a tendency to say 'my ex-wife (husband) is an EVIL IDIOT,' 'that job SUCKS,' and 'Republicans (dogcatchers, morticians) are STUPID, USELESS LOSERS.'

I can certainly understand how someone would decide that Maharaji isn't the teacher for them, or that Knolwedge didn't give them the experience they'd hoped, or that premies are misguided -- but the slander, hyperbole and negative stereotyping I find here seem an unnecessary and extreme reaction (e.g. 'M is an EVIL IDIOT, Knowledge SUCKS, premies are STUPID, USELESS LOSERS.')

If the intention in speaking this way is to dissuade people who haven't heard about M and Knowledge from wanting to pursue it, I doubt this approach will have the desired effect. I would think that most people would question such extreme negativity and would in fact be made curious to get a more balanced view.

If, on the other hand, you're attempting to convince premies that they're deluded and that M is nothing but a sham, I can't imagaine that many people currently practicing Knowledge would see this as any more than the muddle of hurt feelings, half-truth, inaccuracy, mean-spirited exaggeration and paranoia that it is.

However, if the purpose of this website is simply to provide disaffected ex-premies a place to vent and wax energetically negative, then I guess you're achieving your objective. But doesn't that seem like a pretty poor use of time and energy? How about finding something that DOES bring you joy and contentment, instead of focusing on how (ten, fifteen, twenty or twenty-five years ago) this didn't work for you.

Best wishes,

Erika
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Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 15:44:22 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Erika
Subject: remember YOUR words?
Message:
I have your comments about bhole Ji.
Remember how you thought he was the lord equivilent?
I will post your words tonight.

Does it strike you odd that the lord of love/ultimate ruler
shunned his mom for 17 years till she died?

Does being honest about things rate high on your list?
Of is it all illusion anyway so what's the problem with
falsehood and deceit?

How do you explain his cheating on his wife?
You must know about monica lewis, correct?
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Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 15:52:02 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Erika
Subject: Interesting phenomenon
Message:
Erika: How about reading the post below, 'question or two,' and responding to it?

You said: any more than the muddle of hurt feelings, half-truth, inaccuracy, mean-spirited exaggeration and paranoia that it is.

Tell me, Erika, what half-truths have you found here? Where, specifically, is the inaccuracy? What mean-spirited exaggeration? Who's paranoid? Where do you see paranoia demonstrated?

BTW, the euphemism 'mean-spirited' is, and has been, grossly over/misused by people that have no counter-argument. It is also used whenever someone disagrees with YOUR ideas; especially if the ideas expressed happen to be conservative ideas (everyone KNOWS that ALL conservative ideas are mean-spirited!). Been there, done that! It's old, already.
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Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 16:04:15 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com
To: Erika
Subject: Interesting phenomenon
Message:
You're wrong actually. This web site has been responsible for quite a few premies breaking away from Maharaji's cult and belief system. And if you delve a little deeper you'll realise that the people who post here do have a life.

A lot of people have expressed their gratitude for this forum.
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Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 19:26:16 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Very nice, Sir D
Message:
Well said, David. I, myself, will vouch for the forum. If it wasn't for all you negative, angry crybabies, I never would have become one, myself.... I mean, you know what I mean. Getting your life back is a beautiful thing. Thinking free... you can't beat it. I think I mean that. Yeah, that's what I mean :)
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Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 16:13:47 (EST)
From: Angry, Vindictive, Ex
Email: None
To: Erika
Subject: You Are So Right
Message:
Boy Erika, you really hit the nail on the head. I really spend virtually all my waking hours trying to come up with slander, hyperbole and negative stereotyping. And boy is it time comsuming. It's really all I can do to both to feed myself and still have time to adequately demonize Maharaji, knowledge and premies.

But somehow, saying that Maharaji and I just 'couldn't work it out' or that Maharaji 'isn't the teacher for me' doesn't quite cut it. Isn't it interesting that your suggested passive voice response ['it just didn't work] lets Maharaji completely off the hook for his despicable actions and his failure to own up to them?

I mean, knowledge didn't work for me, that's for sure, and Maharaji isn't the teacher for me, that's for sure too, but somehow that just isn't strong enough. Especially when I spent 10 years of my life following someone who portrayed himself as god incarnate, and really messed up my life as a result. Somehow I just think Maharaji is due a little more criticism than that for his failure to accept any responsiblity whatsoever for his actions.
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Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 16:15:51 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Angry, Vindictive, Ex
Subject: Well said, vindict....(nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 20:50:33 (EST)
From: Minnesota housewife
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: It's just not for me
Message:
Ya know lying, misrepresentation, corruption, and ripping people off just isn't for me, you betcha!!

Ya know sweetie, 'it's just not for me' is what ya say about floorwax, not about the guy you surrendered your life to.
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Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 20:53:09 (EST)
From: Minnesota housewife
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: It's just not for me
Message:
Oopsie there, Mike. That last post was for Erika, not for you. Gee willickers but this internet is complicated!
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Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 22:47:53 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Minnesota housewife
Subject: It's just not for me
Message:
Dear MH,
I just had to tell you that I love this! You crack me up!!! :)
'Ya know sweetie, 'it's just not for me' is what ya say about floorwax, not about the guy you surrendered your life to.'
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 16:19:51 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Erika
Subject: Dear Erika
Message:
Dear Erika -
You wrote:
It's fascinating to me, reading through this website. It demonstrates an aspect of human behavior I've often noted in other contexts; the tendency to demonize what we no longer like, agree with or believe. For example, instead of saying 'my ex-wife (husband) and I just couldn't make it work,' or 'that job wasn't really a good fit for me,' or 'I don't understand Republicans (dogcathers, morticians).' -- people have a tendency to say 'my ex-wife (husband) is an EVIL IDIOT,' 'that job SUCKS,' and republicans (dogcatchers, morticians) are STUPID, USELESS LOSERS.'

First, let me tell you that many, many premies have expressed the same feelings that you expressed in your post on here (I am assuming that you are a premie.) Also, I think that you may be confusing the forum (where people can say whatever they want), with the actual web site attached to it.

I personally try to use 'I' statements, as you point out, when talking about Maharaji, Knowledge, or premies. Many other people on here do not, and that's OK with me too. Sometimes people need to say things like 'Maharaji is a FRAUD' out loud to counteract years of conditioning.

If the intention in speaking this way is to dissuade people who haven't heard about M and Knowledge from wanting to pursue it, I doubt this approach will have the desired effect. I would think that most people would question such extreme negativity and would
in fact be made curious to get a more balanced view.


The intent of the web site is to tell the other side of the story of Maharaji and let people make up their own minds. We have links to the sites run by premies (a favor that is NOT returned by the premie sites, by the way, so anyone who reads the web site can hear what premies have to say about Maharaji and knowledge if they would like to know.

If, on the other hand, you're attempting to convince premies that they're deluded and that M is nothing but a sham, I can't imagaine that many people currently practicing Knowledge would see this as any more than the muddle of hurt feelings, half-truth,
inaccuracy, mean-spirited exaggeration and paranoia that it is.


I personally have no desire to convert premies if they don't want to be converted. Our purpose in setting up the web site was to tell it like we see it. Furthermore, I honestly think that you are 'demonizing' the forum by calling it the muddle of hurt feelings, half-truth, inaccuracy, mean-spirited exaggeration and paranoia that it is. You write this as if it is absolute truth, when in fact it is your own feeling. I wouldn't mention this, except that you chided the people who write on the forum for doing this in the first part of your message.

However, if the purpose of this website is simply to provide disaffected ex-premies a place to vent and wax energetically negative, then I guess you're achieving your objective. But doesn't that seem like a pretty poor use of time and energy? How about finding something that DOES bring you joy and contentment, instead of focusing on how (ten, fifteen, twenty or twenty-five years ago) this didn't work for you.

The purpose of the forum (which again, I think that you are confusing with the website) is to give ex-premies a chance to meet each other and talk things through. You may think people are wallowing in the past, but the truth is that a place like this did not exist until very recently. I was fortunate enough to find other ex-premies to whom I could talk when I decided to leave Maharaji, but many other people who post on here were not. Some of the people here have not been able to talk about this stuff for years, and the forum provides a place where they can finally say things that they have needed to say for years. Furthermore, although you may not realize it, there are very recent ex-premies on here - people who left within the last year, some of who spent 25 years following Maharaji. They also need a place to be able to talk about their feelings - sometimes it's impossible to 'focus on the positive' until you heal old wounds from the past. And sometimes healing involves the expression of anger and other negative emotions.

I don't think it's right to assume that what you read on the forum is people's whole lives, and that people on here have NOT found something that brings them joy and contentment, as you put it. In fact, there have been many posts on here about recovery and healing and learning to take responsibility for our lives after years of handing that responsibility over to Maharaji. Although you may see the forum as being completely negative, I don't think it is. As I said to 'Red Knight' below, it's a place of healing, and I have seen many people benefit enormously from being able to interact with other ex-premies on the forum.

Respectfully,
Katie
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Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 19:45:55 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Here, here!
Message:
Or is that hear, hear? Anyway, well done, Katie. Right to the heart of the matter. I couldn't have said it better, myself.
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Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 22:52:48 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Katie
Subject: Dear Erika/bravo Katie! (nt)
Message:
jhgoyf
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Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 23:45:57 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Great post, the Divine
Message:
Miss K...Your intellectual powers remain sharp even though you have addressed the same idiotic argument about us being whiney babies over & over. How do you do it??I would go mad, I tell you, stark bloomin' mad, I say!!
You're the greatest
Love,
Helen
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Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 23:54:06 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Great post, Katie--THANKS (nt)
Message:
THANKS
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Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 16:32:32 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Erika
Subject: Interesting phenomenon
Message:
Erika,

I was a follower from 1973 until mid 1997 (24 years.) Oh sure, I was not a very good devotee and had my doubts all along.

Coming to this website pretty much pushed me off the fence on this little relationship that didn't work out as you say. Surely, you must realize that the little relationship of Devotee/Master or Lord with implications like Heaven and Hell and Karma and Rebirth are a little more serious than Until Death Do Us Part. Oh right, it's just Enjoying Life now.

Also, this Forum allows people to recover and understand some of the dynamics of what went on from people who were there too. You could talk to a therapist about it, but you know that they really don't have a clue. There was and is some serious mindfuck going on.

Bottomline is that while I'm not doing great as I extract my twisted thinking away from Maharaji think, I'm doing better than I was.

So, this website can make the difference and it is a place for me to understand some of the totally weird stuff that went on and still goes on. Stuff that I kept to myself. You may call it negativity, but some of us are calling it a road to recovery. Besides, we have a fair amount of fun making cosmic jokes that only someone who's been through the Cult could ever understand.
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Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 16:42:58 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Erika
Subject: Hey baby!
Message:
So Erika, when are you going to climb down off your plastic lotus flower pedestal and grovel in the mud like the rest of us mere mortals?

PS Got any nekkid pictures of yerself on the web?
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Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 16:49:25 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: gerry, gerry, gerry
Message:
gerry: Can't you see that we are trying to have a meaningful dialogue here? Jeez, you make it sooooo difficult.... ;-)
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Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 17:00:36 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: gerry, gerry, gerry
Message:
Sorry, Mike, it's just that I'm a little worked up reading the Chronicles of the Red Nighty and can't wait to read what happens after the house mother takes Red into the kitchen. After all, weren't kitchens off limits to everyone but the house mother and her appointed helpers?
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Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 17:08:28 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: ooooooooooooohhhh (nt)
Message:
gerry: I forgot about that.... you are right! Hey, Carol... I got a bone to pick with you.... he he he ;-)
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Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 17:37:41 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: gerry, gerry, gerry
Message:
And I *SO* want to write what happens. Why I had to turn down the thermostat in my office just thinking about it.
But, alas, I am feeling remorse again.

Hey Erika is right, there's one paranoid here. Me.
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Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 17:43:15 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: oo baby, baby
Message:
Remorse and paranoia. I just *LOVE* that in a woman!
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Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 17:45:20 (EST)
From: selene
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: oo baby, baby
Message:
You just like the overcompensation.
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Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 17:24:18 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Erika
Subject: Interesting phenomenon
Message:
Reading some of the responses that you've gotten on your post I see how fortunate we or shall I say I am to have the website with its basic information and the Forum for adhoc free spirited discussion.

The response you got from Katie, for example, was, in my opinion, excellent. It was, again, in my opinion, balanced and certainly not mean spirited. Katie also did a great job at revealing the tricks of rhetoric and semantics that you used to negate what's going on here.

There are some really intelligent and observant folks on this Forum that do a great service with no expectation of any rewards whatsoever. I am very much grateful for their efforts because I'm a simple person and when I read your post I was considering your points as possibly being quite valid.

Thanks Mike, Bill, and Sir Dave and the Ventilator Guy.

And a big thanks gerry for getting things back on track with his posts. Humor is great medicine!

Oh, I forgot that this was Friday. Hey, kids, are we gonna do that Cu-See-Me thing again? I'm getting tired of this negativity thing and need a break. Maybe do a live version of the Chronicles of the Red Nighty?
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Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 17:45:11 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: Thanks, barney...
Message:
...for what you said about my post. I'm not sure if all the premies who make posts like Erika's are sincere, but I have exchanged e-mails a few of them who were honestly just trying to help - in their own way. So I think it does make a difference to try to be as civil as possible (if possible).

BTW, I really appreciate you bringing up the humor on this site as another healing thing. I tend to be too serious most of the time, and I often forget how great the funny posts are. I remember laughing for almost 15 minutes at one of Jim's posts once - it just struck me the right way at the time (of course, I had a mouthful of coffee when I read it - I'm still trying to get that off my keyboard). Anyway, it had been a bad day, and Jim's post made me feel SO much better. I've really appreciated your humourous (AND serious) input on the forum as well - it helps.
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Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 23:24:42 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Erika
Subject: Interesting phenomenon
Message:
Hi Erika:

This site worked for me. I was into the cult up to my eyeballs for 24 years until I found this place. Two days was all it took. I really do want to be free. I can only speak for myself; I'm not exaggerating. This is a DIRTY LITTLE CULT WITH NO ENLIGHTENMENT AT THE END. I am angry because existing with MJ's dogma made me a slave and miserable. His cult has the same fallout as living in a concentration camp.

BTW MJ IS an EVIL IDIOT because he knows he's not the LORD OF THE UNIVERSE, and he hasn't bothered to tell the old timers about his realization, so they can get on with their lives. MJ's Knowledge does not belong to MJ. These meditation practices are commonplace. Many, so called enlightened ones, such as the Eckencar Mahanta, Sai Baba and our Lord's brother, Balba Gwan Ji are teaching these techniques and their devotees are also ENJOYING LIFE as slaves. Premies are STUPID because when faced with this overwhelming evidence that the whole thing is a farce, they refuse to stop lying to themselves.
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Date: Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 00:44:53 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: Erika
Subject: Erika Anderson?nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 08:09:22 (EST)
From: Seymour
Email: seymour_t@rocketmail.com
To: Erika
Subject: Erika - another response
Message:
Hello Erica,
Just like to say that I thought your post was well expressed and that I understand your point of view. Having said that, I have to admit to agreeing with most of what Katie said in her reply. It can be true that people irrationaly condemn ex-lovers, friends, jobs etc. and that their feelings are more sour grapes than anything based on fact.
There may even be a few ex-premies with these feelings but the reason for the Web site is to present a truthfull representation of Knowledge and Maharaji by those that have practised knowledge and decided that it did not live up to the claims that were made for it. There is a difference between obtaining something that you 'did not get on with' and something that did not do the job you expected it to do. If nothing else the Web Site proves that, despite many years of sincere effort, the knowledge does not work for everyone and stands as a warning to others that they may waste many years of their own lives trying it out, only to end up dissapointed.
The forum is different. Whereas the Webmaster makes every effort to ensure that the Website content is based on fact there is no such monitoring on the forum. Anything goes( except, quite reasonably, threats). Anyone can say whatever they like and it is up to those who read the posts to sort out the wheat from the chaff?. This being the case there will be many who wish to shout abuse, talk nonsense etc. but the important thing is that they are free to express whatever feelings they might have. This includes ex-premies, premies, non-premies, in fact anyone who would like to say something about Maharaji, knowledge, cults, religion, God, life, the universe and everything. This is the essence of the internet and the newly emerging open channels of communication that are breaking down the barriers that have previously existed between countries and people from different cultural and religious backgrouds. All this is in direct contrast to the knowledge and Elan Vital which wishes to form yet another exclusive club which seperates it's members from the rest of humanity.
Do you not think it is a fair criticism of the premie Enjoying Life Site that it will not allow those who wish to post messages the freedom to say whatever they like? Censorship may be necessary in some cases to prevent the corruption of children or those who would be harmed by sensitive material, but there can be no reason not to allow negative criticism, doubts, questions, and most importantly rational debate which is yet to appear on their Web Site. Surely they can work out how to set up a forum - any semi-computer-literate 14 year old could do it in an hour. I can only assume that they do not wish to allow people to express their opinions and experiences to each other.
I once assumed the knowledge to be the pathway to infinite bliss and, although now I do not feel this way, I never had any problems defending myself and positively welcomed any intelligent discussion about meditation, consciousness etc. for in telling someone else about my experiences it helped me to gain a deeper understanding of my own feelings and perspective. The only way to discover and spread the truth is to be open and always be prepared to discuss/defend your world view with others, yet this seems to be anathema to premies these days.
Your post has started just such a debate and I look forward to your response.
Cheers
Seymour.
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Date: Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 19:28:31 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Erika
Subject: Tell us about your brother
Message:
Erika,

I'm assuming you're Ms. Andersen, sister of David and Kurt. Tell us, please, how you felt about your brother writing a piece for the New Yorker about your cult leader. Kurt told me that he had to tiptoe around many of the facts here largely because he didn't want to alienate you and David. Does that make any sense?

I also got the distinct impression that you were strongly against him writing anything. If those things are true were they because Kurt, like us, would be irresponsibly negative and ultimately ineffectual?
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Date: Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 05:28:11 (EST)
From: syd
Email: syd@gold.ac.uk
To: Erika
Subject: Interesting phenomenon
Message:
Erika,

That's a bit of an exaggeration, isn't it? There are some messages here like that but many that are not. Some people want to vent but not everyone. Some people gave a great deal of their lives and feel deeply betrayed - for them it is more than just 'something that didn't work for them'.

I'm fortunate enough not to have been too damaged or angry but I am very glad that a place like this exists people to discuss and emote with others who will understand, more than understand, because of shared experiences.

I just try and sift out the bits that interest me. It doesn't take long to know which threads to follow and which to skip. Just use your head.

It's more like a noisy bar than a quiet dinner party in here! I'm one of the people huddled in the corner with a newspaper waiting for my turn on the pool table. It may be noisy but it's fully of life, vitality, elan even...

Cheers :-)

Syd
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Date: Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 06:45:24 (EST)
From: seymour
Email: None
To: syd
Subject: Interesting phenomenon
Message:
Well put Syd,
It's more like a noisy bar than a quiet dinner party in here! I'm one of the people huddled in the corner with a newspaper waiting for my turn on the pool table. It may be noisy but it's fully of life, vitality, elan even...
I feel much the same whenever I get time to drop in.
Even though I'm not here that much it's nice to know that it's here to drop in at any time.
Glad to see you are finding the time to post.
Cheers
Seymour.
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Date: Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 06:50:45 (EST)
From: syd
Email: syd@gold.ac.uk
To: seymour
Subject: mutual appreciation soc. :-)
Message:
Thanks Seymour. I thought your response was excellent. I read all the other posts after posting my own so it was mostly repeating stuff already said. It's the weekend and I'm grabbing a bit of free time for email and so forth.

Syd
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Date: Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 10:25:28 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: syd/Erika
Subject: Interesting phenomenon
Message:
I agree, Syd. I think a lot of us here are still 'lovers' in that we are not quick to anger, try to see all sides of a story, have a sense of humor, and enjoy being with people. I don't see the big deal. Occasionally people get in a heated argument here but so what?? Intellectual debate is one of the things a lot of us missed most when we were premies. We're all different here--just like out there in the world, and yes, just like in the premie community.
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Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 13:37:29 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Can I ask a question or two?
Message:
Premies are always eager to communicate their displeasure with this site, but they don’t care to comment on a couple of things that come up regularly. The main one being: M’s greed and lack of humanity. I’ll try again to elicit a response.

- Despite my religion (or lack thereof), I will use various so-called spiritual quotes (or paraphrases) to illustrate the fact that M is quite different from previous purported perfect masters.

- Since premies are so fond of comparing Jesus to M, let’s start there. Some premies say that Jesus’ followers gave him a lot of material stuff and Jesus used it as he pleased. This is really irrelevant since Jesus ACTIVELY encouraged his followers to take care of the poor. Case in point: the sermon where he was talking about doing good to others and said, “he who does these things to the least of men, does them unto me.” He was ACTIVELY and unequivocally encouraging his followers to do good things for people other than himself and equating that “service” with service done directly to himself. No room for quibbling here…. That’s what he SAID (or was written). So M is the equivalent of Jesus, huh? When was the last time that he told premies to give to the poor? When was the last time that M advised, while sitting upon his holy-butt on his holy-pulpit, premies that service done to those in need was the equivalent of service done to him directly? When was the last time that M said, “premies, you’ve have shown me ENOUGH personal gratitude, PLEASE send your gratitude to those that NEED IT to SURVIVE till tomorrow. Gratitude shown to the least of beings, is gratitude shown to me!”? DO I NEED TO GO ON? DO YOU GET IT? ARE YOUR READING GLASSES ON YOUR FACE? Lastly, I can readily state that Jesus didn’t need a Jet with a gold-toilet to build one of the biggest followings in the history of this planet! Same with Mohammed, same with Krishna, same with Buddha… You know, there are MANY more people in those religions than the total count of people that EVER received K from M (including all ex's)!

- M wants you to be detached from “this world.” His version of detachment is unlike all other definitions, even Krishna’s. M’s definition appears to be detached=don’t care about anything other than your stinking breath. Since, once again, premies are fond of comparing M to Krishna, this is a fair comparison. READ the Bhagavad Gita and tell me where Krishna says, “I only care about my breath, so should you.” In fact, the bhagavad gita is the textbook of “karma yoga.” Karma Yoga is the yoga of ACTION! The detachment referred to within its pages is 'detachment from the FRUITS of your action,” NOT “DO NOTHING BUT BREATHE.” Throughout the book, many examples of those works are given. Mahatma Ghandi was a Karma Yogi. Read about his life and you are reading the meaning of the bhagavad gita (IMHO). AT NO TIME did Ghandi say, “sit around, breathe and enjoy life and don’t bother with those lowly untouchables.” In fact, the untouchables were his biggest concern. He did what he did, but he wasn’t (or tried not to be) attached to the FRUITS (or take credit for) his personal labors. A modern day example of the right attitude would likely be: “No matter what the outcome, I gave it my best shot” and I neither expect nor accept anything in return for my work in this endeavor. Again, M FAILS miserably in this regard. Your so-called gratitude is payment for a gift…. WHICH HE GLADLY ACCEPTS! M, once again, actively discourages involvement with those “outside” knowledge and his little circle (demeaning those “others,” all the while). The only selfless acts he actively encourages are those “dedicated” to himself! M is a humanitarian? BULL! M cares about other people? BULL. M is a “perfect master?” BULL! M is god? BULLLLLL! M is a great meditation teacher? BULL! M is one of the most unabashedly selfish people that I can recall. There are other selfish people, but they USUALLY don’t hide their selfishness behind a spiritual/humanitarian banner. Those, like M, that do, are the lowliest of the low-lifes!

- I could continue with other so-called religious leaders and real humanitarians, but it would be pointless because I don’t even think that these examples will get the point across to M’s loyal minion/slaves. Anyone (like PT, for example) care to respond with something substantive?

- There is a HUGE difference between SAYING that life is “precious” and providing PROOF (thru detached ACTION) that life is precious!
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Date: Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 00:01:07 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: When is enough for GM
Message:
Right on, Mike. I loved what you said about how Maharaji should say 'Look guys, I have enough, give this stuff to people who really need it and I'll be pleased.' When is it *enough* for Maharaji??? I mean, when does the guy say, 'enough already?' I really think the lobe of his brain that gives the 'enough' signal to his nervous system is busted
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Date: Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 11:07:43 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Can I ask a question or two?
Message:
good points Mike
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Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 22:12:04 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Letter to Jon Cainer
Message:
I just wrote the followign love letter to Jonathan Cainer at ELK after reading his 'Day in the Life' Expression:

'Jonathan,

You happy bunny! I just read your day-in-the-life post. When you say:

I just want to witness the incredible process of life; gently driving each breath in and out of my body. I want to feel the energy that keeps me here on this planet - and to fully appreciate the subtle yet essential gift of existence.

I wonder if you have a sincere bone in your body. You don't actually believe this crap, do you? That there's some consciousness 'breathing' you, etc? I have to wonder about you, Jonathan. See, you're an astrologer. Astrology has been decisively blown out of the water by numerous double-blind studies. That you ignore same but continue to delude people for money makes you a fraud. Okay, I'll back up a bit. Let's pretend you knew nothing of any of the modern research which conclusively debunks astrology. Let's just say this is all news to you. Okay, well now you know. I'm putting you on notice that these studies exist. I personally found them quite compelling, maybe you would too.

So now you know, what are you going to do about it? Are you going to seek this research out and try to determine to the best of your good faith abilities the truth of the matter? Of course not. This is how you make your living, right? Face it, if someone burst into your flat tomorrow with an envelope entitled 'The Absolute Truth About Astrology' you probably wouldn't even open it. To put it mildly, truth is NOT what you've based your life on. You live by getting people to give you money to feed their false beliefs. In that sense you are essentially a fraud. You fool people. You defraud them. Maybe you keep yourself 'wilfully blind' to the truth of your practise but that changes nothing. You're still a fraud.

So now you're playing the same game for Maharaji. If someone burst into your flat with an envelope entitled 'The Absolute Truth About Maharaji' I doubt you'd read it either. Who needs the truth when you have your little trip?

Jonathan, it's not secret that I despise what you're doing and the fraudulent way you're running this website. Sure, you edited our fake submissions but are they the only ones you tampered with? I find that hard to believe. Look how carefully you guys reconstruct peoples' lives to avoid any mention of the 14 or 15 year-old 'Lord of the Universe'. And remember, Jonathan, that's EXACTLY how we knew him. I can only guess how fake your work is here.

So here's the thing. I want you to just take a moment, wipe that defensive smirk off yur face for a second and really think about this. When your kids grow up old enough to reason independently, they'll learn that a) their father fooled people for a living; and b) he was part of a very ridiculous 70s cult that he never had the courage to face clearly. Unless they follow you into the cult (possible) they'll be ashamed of you. Do you understand that? No, I don't think you do.

Who knows how long any of this will continue? The web, your site, the ex site? But I just hope that there'll come a day when your kids cruise over to the ex-site and discover how their father completely exploited supposedly sincere life remembrances by supposedly real people. Does it matter that the posts were fake? That's something that, with any luck, you'll be able to discuss with them.

So go on, little bunny. Be happy. Get paid. One day, perhaps, you'll have the courage to look into a proper mirror and past your facade. You know I'm rooting for you.

Hi to Daniel and Sally of course.

Jim'
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Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 21:22:41 (EST)
From: Shoe
Email: None
To: Sir David & David?
Subject: Inverness
Message:
Did you live in a beautiful farm house donated by an Andy Cox?

Did he ever get it back? I don't suppose his family were to happy about that.

You weren't the Sergeant Major in Charge of us Bongos were you?

Do you ken the name of that farmhouse/Ashram D.L.M. Asset that went straight into M's pocket?
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Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 22:07:36 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com
To: Shoe
Subject: Inverness
Message:
Quick, before I forget the name. It was called Acknackloik but that's not the correct spelling. That's where I was told I was, anyway. Yes I was there in the summer of 1974. I loved the scenery, loved the Inverness people and hated the ashram.

After I'd left Stoke ashram for the zillienth time, Nick Setmour-Jones gave me an ultimatum. Either go to Inverness ashram or leave the ashram for ever! God, eternal damnation. So I hitch hiked up to Inverness ashram from London in just one day. That must be a record for hitch hiking in Britain. No luxuries like trains or buses for ashram premies in those days.

The ashram sec and housemother were nice people and were obviously having a very non detatched relationship. I was having a nervous breakdown and they were very sympathetic. But all the nightmare Divine Sales reject premies were there too and one or two of them were very heavy with me. God, amazing I took all that crap and believed it was Maharaji's prashad.

The best times were in the morning when I had to herd the cows out of the garden in order to get out of it. A long walk down a track and then a lane to the bus stop to Inverness where I had got a job. It was a heat-wave all the time I was there. The biggest surprise was finding Loch Ness on the other side of the mountain. In better circumstances it would have been such a romantic and idylic place. I really don't know what happened to the house or the ashram sec and his housemother girlfriend. They were great people and I guess they left the cult eventually. Sunrise in the glen as I walked to work was always magic.
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Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 05:03:53 (EST)
From: Sir Dave again
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Inverness
Message:
Incidentally, why are you called 'Shoe'?

When I was there I did make friends with a Scottish guy in the ashram who was only living there because he was a local guy. I forget his name now but perhaps you'd know it. Hey, it might have been Robbie.
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Date: Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 15:36:07 (EST)
From: syd
Email: syd@gold.ac.uk
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Inverness
Message:
Nick Seymour-Jones? Now who was he? A familiar name but can't place him now.
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Date: Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 16:18:28 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: syd
Subject: Inverness
Message:
Nick Seymore-Jones was one of the main men in the mission in the seventies and used to work with Glen Whittaker. I'm not sure what his official title was but I know Glen was called General Secretary.

Nick was ex-public school and had fairly well-to-do parents, I believe. He was one of the super-premies I used to really respect. Now I realise they were all just as lost and deluded by Maharaji's trip as I was.
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Date: Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 06:30:24 (EST)
From: syd
Email: syd@gold.ac.uk
To: Shoe
Subject: Andy Cox
Message:
Andy Cox! Now there's a character and a half.

I knew Andy from his time in Cornwall, '73. He and his wife Sarah and two other premie couples bought a farm in Mullion and renamed it Paradise Farm. They grew organic veg to supply the ashrams and had stalls in local markets. There was a weekly lorry run to London to deliver the veg.

The business was mainly bank-rolled by Andy's trust fund and lost a great deal of money. There were often 30-50 people there, supposedly working on the farm but obviously many of us were spacing off a lot of the time but still getting fed. An organic farm is an idyllic setting to have a spliff and make love in the open air under the full moon - as I've said before, not all my experiences as a premie were unpleasant :-) That all came later in the ashrams.

After a year or so of this the trustees would not release more money so the farm was sold. I believe that was in '74 and it went to ex-WPC people who I think had a business called something like Aquarium Enterprises (or some similar pun on aquarian).

Andy split with his business partners (the whole scene had been rent with sexual jealousies from the start) and bought another farm in wales, in the heart of hippydom near to Newcastle Emlyn, called Gilvach, from another 'legend in his own lunch-time', Nosher. My brother lived there for a while.

Oddly enough I've bumped into him (Andy) several times over the years here in London on the street.

Last time I heard of him he was back in Cornwall. He had got addicted to ketamine (the real Big K?) for a while, a horse tranquiliser which gives delusions of grandeur and had decided that he was a spiritual teacher himself (yes, definitely the real K thing). He looked very rough.

His wife split with the children some years ago and took out some sort of injunction to stop, or at least to limit, the amount of trust money he could get at because of his addiction. She could see that there would be nothing left for the children to inherit.

A mutual acquaintance from the Paradise farm days told me that he was getting very freaked out because after a lifetime of inherited wealth he was finally getting short of money although, as she said, what 'short of money' means in that context is probably not the same as it would mean to most people. All the same he has got through several millions in the past thirty or forty years - car racing and travel before m, ketamine etc since, always property and failed businesses.

It might not sound like it because I am such a sarcastic bastard but I am very fond of Andy, even though he did try and seduce my girl friend in front of me the first time she met him! (Glastonbury Fayre, '91 or thereabouts). He is a remarkable person and it's not his fault that he was born wealthy (commie joke). He has always been exceptionally generous and had huge reserves of energy, love of life and optimism. I hope he's in better shape now than he was last time I saw him, a couple years ago. It was a saddening sight but maybe he was just having a bad week.

Syd
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Date: Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 12:58:44 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: syd
Subject: Andy Cox
Message:
Good story syd, also, I like your website.
I want an electric car.
Just bought a 600 1980 diesel rabbit because it gets 55 miles per gallon and I think that will count next year.
Diesel will be easier to get and I think heating oil can be used.
Storeing diesel is safer than gas.
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Date: Sun, Jan 17, 1999 at 15:33:08 (EST)
From: syd
Email: syd@gold.ac.uk
To: bill
Subject: diesel (ot)
Message:
Glad you liked the web pages. Like it says 'thanks for dropping in' :-)

There are people using diesel substitutes based on various home-made recipes based on pressed oils (soya oil or rape seed for example). A net search will probably show stuff like that or try dejanews for alt energy newsgroups. The info is definitely around. I believe you need to get the injectors cleaned more often, that sort of thing.

Syd
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Date: Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 01:48:13 (EST)
From: anonomousie
Email: None
To: syd
Subject: diesel (ot)
Message:
thanks for the tip.
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Date: Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 09:06:44 (EST)
From: Salah
Email: None
To: Shoe
Subject: Oh Boy what fun then
Message:
All these memories of Andy Cox and Paradise farm....the good old days?
People were really weird and wonderfull...at least they just did something original....No originality anymore...bland stuff

What happened to Nick Seymour Jones, and Ron Geaves and Saph and Milky I wonder...is Milky still on this planet...hope so...

Regards to all and stop fighting each other...try and salvage somthing of the dream you had then..... :-)
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Date: Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 12:07:37 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Salah
Subject: Oh Boy what fun NOW
Message:
'Regards to all and stop fighting each other...try and salvage somthing of the dream you had then..... '

My dreams have grown a million fold since I escaped!!!.....and they are now coming true.
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Date: Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 19:11:01 (EST)
From: Shoe
Email: None
To: Salah
Subject: Oh Boy what fun then
Message:
Hello Salah

Thanks for the message. I hope Andy is O.K. and Sarah (his wife) and family are well and happy too. They were so well-meaning (weren';t we all) well most of us anyway.

As for Ron Geaves(see Lives U.K. on E.L.K). He seems very happy teaching Various Religions in U.K.

Seem hard to believe him and Sandy were heroin addicts. (or so the story goes) They were REALLY saved. Not so Dougie Little (see Picture of Mahatmas):
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca) Both Ron and Dougie are both in that picture behind the Mahatmas.

Unfortunately Dougie died of a Heroin overdose and I hate to sound sarcastic but where were the Great Souls then?( Win some loose some I guess). This really upsets me as well especially when Charanand quoted 'Devotees are always in a state of Immortal Bliss' (Also on same web-site)

There was no greater devotee than Dougie Little (I can elaborate) and anyway we all know this quote is definately untrue.

It would be wonderful if Knowledge was this continuous ocean off bliss but we all know it isn't and that Premies often need help
other than Knowledge reviews.

I know Mahatma Charanand has done lots of good works like visiting prisoners etc. but more care should be taken of premies in my opinion.

This' who cares about anyone except Maharaji mentality' I have experienced over and over again really pisses me off!

Sorry to end on this unhappy note - Saph I think is considered a Bongo by E.V. (I really liked him). He seems to be brushed under the carpet these days.

Milky Cole - who cares. I have various personal reasons for saying this which I won't go into now. He did write a very 'spiritual' poem to M a couple of years ago in the Anniversary Newspaper.
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Date: Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 14:36:03 (EST)
From: Bobby
Email: bobby2@mindspring.com
To: any Brits
Subject: Clive Goodenough
Message:
Any of you lot know Clive Goodenough?

I roomed with him in India 71. I enjoyed hanging out with the man and think of him from time to time. At the time of India his girlfriend was Jane somebody. Jane's sister Brit came to the US in summer 72 and stayed with me a bit in New Jersey. Clive used to make handcrafted violins I think.

71 was Clive's second trip to India. He had gone the year before via the overland route. In Prem Nagar he was there with Saph and a few others. The Mahatma's used to score some fine hash.
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