Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 35

From: Jan 8, 1999

To: Jan 25, 1999

Page: 5 Of: 5



JW -:- Book Burning -:- Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 16:03:37 (EST)
__barney -:- Book Burning -:- Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 16:50:58 (EST)
____Heretic -:- Book Burning -:- Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 08:45:32 (EST)
__Jean-Michel -:- Book hiding -:- Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 17:16:12 (EST)
____x -:- Revision Tactics -:- Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 20:35:30 (EST)
______Gail -:- Purpose of Revision Tactics -:- Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 23:35:42 (EST)
________x -:- Details of recall days? -:- Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 00:28:52 (EST)
__________Jean-Michel -:- Details of recall days? -:- Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 04:36:08 (EST)
____________AJW -:- Details of recall days? -:- Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 05:46:12 (EST)
______________Jean-Michel -:- Details of recall days? -:- Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 06:35:30 (EST)
________________Gail -:- Old stuff. -:- Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 11:34:19 (EST)
__________________Runamok -:- Old stuff. -:- Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 19:48:47 (EST)
____________________x -:- Sunny Kingdom poster -:- Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 20:40:19 (EST)
______________________Katie -:- Sunny Kingdom poster -:- Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 22:42:54 (EST)
________________________Jim -:- Can you imagine? -:- Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 23:28:38 (EST)
______________________bill -:- Sunny Kingdom poster -:- Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 00:28:43 (EST)
____________________barney -:- dj rayovac? -:- Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 20:54:39 (EST)
______________________Runamok -:- dj rayovac? -:- Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 23:29:40 (EST)
____________Gail -:- Details of recall days? -:- Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 11:22:43 (EST)
______________Mike -:- Details of recall days? -:- Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 12:04:15 (EST)
________Mike -:- 1985 is correct -:- Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 09:40:14 (EST)
__________Jean-Michel -:- op please confirm 1985 (nt) -:- Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 10:13:53 (EST)
____________bill -:- op p -:- Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 00:33:26 (EST)
__________Selene -:- 1985 is correct -:- Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 23:04:38 (EST)
__bill -:- Book Burning -:- Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 00:03:15 (EST)
____bill -:- video Burning -:- Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 00:36:18 (EST)

Way -:- a quote for AE -:- Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 15:56:17 (EST)
__Way -:- another quote for AE -:- Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 16:02:24 (EST)
____Way -:- another quote for AE -:- Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 16:07:29 (EST)
______AE -:- another quote for AE -:- Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 20:08:19 (EST)
______Mike -:- another quote for AE -:- Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 09:48:48 (EST)
________Way -:- another quote for AE -:- Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 10:28:56 (EST)

Jim -:- Time for satsang! -:- Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 13:11:34 (EST)
__JW -:- Time for satsang! -:- Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 13:59:13 (EST)
____John -:- I can't resist -:- Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 14:19:33 (EST)
______JW -:- I can't resist -:- Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 14:31:49 (EST)
______Anne -:- I can't resist -:- Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 16:57:54 (EST)
________John -:- I can't resist -:- Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 17:04:33 (EST)
________Katie -:- re-infection - or infection? -:- Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 11:35:46 (EST)
______barney -:- I can't resist -:- Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 17:17:00 (EST)
____Robyn -:- Time for satsang! -:- Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 20:36:11 (EST)
____Jim -:- Implications -:- Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 21:58:21 (EST)

Jean-Michel -:- You're invited for tea! -:- Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 11:58:06 (EST)
__John -:- I almost lost my lunch! -:- Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 12:32:28 (EST)
____Jean-Michel -:- For women only! -:- Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 12:36:36 (EST)
______John -:- Not your face, silly... -:- Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 13:32:56 (EST)
________Gail -:- Hi cutie. Wanna a date? (nt) -:- Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 23:07:37 (EST)
__________Jean-Michel -:- For Gail ONLY! -:- Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 03:54:05 (EST)
____Selene -:- I almost lost my lunch! -:- Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 12:27:58 (EST)
__Jim -:- So that's what you look like! -:- Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 12:50:11 (EST)
____Jean-Michel -:- op might tell you! -:- Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 12:55:28 (EST)
__Robyn -:- You're invited for tea! -:- Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 13:06:15 (EST)
____Katie -:- You're invited for tea! -:- Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 13:09:49 (EST)
______Jean-Michel -:- You're invited for tea! -:- Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 15:36:11 (EST)
__Sir Dave -:- You're invited for tea! -:- Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 20:18:44 (EST)
____Helen -:- You're invited for tea! -:- Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 20:45:48 (EST)
__syd -:- You're invited for tea! -:- Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 02:42:01 (EST)
____Jean-Michel -:- You're invited for tea! -:- Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 03:51:38 (EST)
______syd -:- You're invited for tea! -:- Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 14:59:54 (EST)

JohnCavad -:- YOU'RE ALL DOING A GREAT JOB -:- Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 20:37:20 (EST)
__Helen -:- YOU'RE ALL DOING A GREAT JOB -:- Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 23:08:53 (EST)
__Jim -:- Thanks, John -:- Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 00:17:09 (EST)
__Robyn -:- YOU'RE ALL DOING A GREAT JOB -:- Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 04:21:47 (EST)
__Katie -:- Thanks, John! -:- Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 11:27:58 (EST)
____John Cavad -:- Thanks, John! -:- Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 20:16:25 (EST)

Jim -:- The head of Gary Epton -:- Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 20:23:07 (EST)

RT -:- BBC news: middl cls risk cults -:- Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 17:28:48 (EST)
__Helen -:- BBC news: middl cls risk cults -:- Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 17:58:41 (EST)
__Nimrod -:- BBC news: middl cls risk cults -:- Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 21:10:03 (EST)
____Helen -:- BBC news: middl cls risk cults -:- Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 22:51:48 (EST)
______Nimrod -:- BBC news: middl cls risk cults -:- Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 01:20:18 (EST)
____Gail -:- BBC news: middl cls risk cults -:- Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 23:55:07 (EST)
______Nimrod -:- BBC news: middl cls risk cults -:- Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 00:31:08 (EST)
________Selene -:- ouch! -:- Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 11:18:26 (EST)
__________Nimrod -:- ouch! -:- Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 02:11:10 (EST)
________JW -:- BBC news: middl cls risk cults -:- Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 13:17:34 (EST)
__________Nimrod -:- BBC news: middl cls risk cults -:- Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 01:57:13 (EST)
____________Jim -:- Even then -:- Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 22:42:48 (EST)
____Jethro -:- BBC news: middl cls risk cults -:- Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 02:35:22 (EST)

Anne -:- re-infection risk to m&k -:- Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 17:14:16 (EST)
__Helen -:- re-infection risk to m&k -:- Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 17:44:06 (EST)
__Mike -:- re-infection risk to m&k -:- Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 17:44:10 (EST)
__Sir Dave -:- It's all hype -:- Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 20:56:48 (EST)
____Gail -:- I think this guy is Another -:- Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 23:43:30 (EST)
______Sir Dave -:- I think this guy is Another -:- Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 02:14:38 (EST)
________Gail -:- Thanks darlin'. I needed that. -:- Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 22:23:57 (EST)
________Nimrod -:- I think this guy is Another -:- Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 02:27:35 (EST)
__________Gail -:- I think this guy is Another -:- Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 22:13:25 (EST)
____op -:- It's all hype -:- Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 03:57:15 (EST)
______Brian -:- It's all hype -:- Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 11:33:43 (EST)
______Mike -:- All pranam to the holy OP -:- Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 10:13:20 (EST)

Sir Dave -:- Infinite is his glory -:- Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 00:21:36 (EST)
__cavalry -:- Infinite is his glory -:- Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 08:35:00 (EST)
____Robyn -:- Infinite is his glory -:- Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 09:11:58 (EST)
____Sir Dave -:- Infinite is his glory -:- Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 09:53:03 (EST)
______Mike -:- Atman's a moron -:- Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 10:49:13 (EST)
________Sir Dave -:- He's a not where it's atman -:- Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 02:39:25 (EST)
__________RT -:- Atman and Baragon 2 the rescue -:- Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 17:36:35 (EST)

chr -:- finances -:- Sun, Jan 10, 1999 at 22:48:33 (EST)
__JW -:- finances -:- Sun, Jan 10, 1999 at 23:17:27 (EST)
____chr -:- finances -:- Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 00:15:20 (EST)
______x -:- finances -:- Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 13:00:17 (EST)
______JW -:- finances -:- Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 13:03:17 (EST)
________chr -:- finances -:- Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 16:45:58 (EST)
__________JW -:- finances -:- Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 17:23:14 (EST)
____________chr -:- finances -:- Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 17:40:00 (EST)
______________Robyn -:- finances -:- Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 18:11:45 (EST)
________________chr -:- finances -:- Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 18:34:45 (EST)
__________________Robyn -:- finances -:- Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 18:40:24 (EST)
____________________Mike -:- Thank god for my wife! -:- Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 18:48:51 (EST)
______________JW -:- finances -:- Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 18:35:22 (EST)
______________Helen -:- HA! -:- Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 20:20:32 (EST)
____________Mike -:- You know what gets me? -:- Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 18:49:34 (EST)
______________JW -:- You know what gets me? -:- Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 18:57:35 (EST)
________________Mike -:- I know that I've harped -:- Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 10:22:26 (EST)
______________John -:- But Mike, that's the point! -:- Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 22:44:40 (EST)
____________Helen -:- finances -:- Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 20:23:36 (EST)

Seymour -:- Heretic Journey & David M -:- Sun, Jan 10, 1999 at 09:45:19 (EST)
__Happy Heretic -:- Heretic Journey -:- Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 09:19:28 (EST)

AE -:- Pictures & quotes needed -:- Sun, Jan 10, 1999 at 05:23:25 (EST)
__bill...*>*... -:- any artists here?--RT? -:- Sun, Jan 10, 1999 at 08:38:31 (EST)
____x -:- any artists here?--RT? -:- Sun, Jan 10, 1999 at 12:26:49 (EST)
______RT -:- cartoon art of the Lard: Eh. -:- Sun, Jan 10, 1999 at 17:38:20 (EST)
________AE -:- Here's my email address -:- Sun, Jan 10, 1999 at 20:02:38 (EST)

The red Knight -:- Dreaming of OP -:- Sat, Jan 09, 1999 at 20:39:20 (EST)
__Sir Dave -:- Dreaming of OP -:- Sun, Jan 10, 1999 at 03:32:18 (EST)

Runamok -:- Public Confession -:- Sat, Jan 09, 1999 at 01:15:04 (EST)
__KK -:- Public Confession -:- Sat, Jan 09, 1999 at 09:12:29 (EST)
____chr -:- Public Confession -:- Sat, Jan 09, 1999 at 17:02:04 (EST)
____gerry -:- Just wondering... -:- Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 11:46:39 (EST)
__Helen -:- Public Confession -:- Sat, Jan 09, 1999 at 09:17:26 (EST)
____Runamok -:- Public Confession -:- Sat, Jan 09, 1999 at 10:04:02 (EST)
______Helen -:- Public Confession -:- Sat, Jan 09, 1999 at 11:17:02 (EST)
________Katie -:- Public Confession -:- Sat, Jan 09, 1999 at 14:14:37 (EST)
__________Runamok -:- Public Confession -:- Sat, Jan 09, 1999 at 16:11:38 (EST)
____________Helen -:- Public Confession -:- Sat, Jan 09, 1999 at 17:17:05 (EST)
______JW -:- Public Confession -:- Sat, Jan 09, 1999 at 20:21:56 (EST)
__JW -:- Public Confession -:- Sat, Jan 09, 1999 at 20:44:03 (EST)
__John -:- Public Confession -:- Sat, Jan 09, 1999 at 21:20:43 (EST)
____barney -:- Truth or Consequences -:- Sat, Jan 09, 1999 at 22:24:41 (EST)
______Katie -:- Truth or Consequences -:- Sun, Jan 10, 1999 at 01:47:35 (EST)
________Runamok -:- Truth or Consequences -:- Sun, Jan 10, 1999 at 04:08:17 (EST)
__________bill burke -:- Truth or Consequences -:- Sun, Jan 10, 1999 at 08:15:36 (EST)
____________JW -:- Truth or Consequences -:- Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 15:25:36 (EST)
______________bill -:- Truth or Consequences -:- Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 01:25:18 (EST)
____________Mickey the Pharisee -:- Truth or Consequences -:- Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 16:13:42 (EST)
____________Katie -:- Truth or Consequences -:- Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 19:30:43 (EST)
______________Jim -:- Be fair but be accurate -:- Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 21:47:34 (EST)
__________Helen -:- Ain't noone's bid-ness -:- Sun, Jan 10, 1999 at 08:50:35 (EST)
__________barney -:- Joan Apter's Doubts -:- Sun, Jan 10, 1999 at 14:36:16 (EST)
____________Gail -:- Joan Apter's Doubts -:- Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 22:20:09 (EST)
______________barney -:- Joan Apter's Doubts -:- Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 01:37:48 (EST)
________________Runamok -:- Anctil -:- Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 04:14:31 (EST)
__________________Gail -:- Anctil -:- Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 15:25:50 (EST)
____________________dv -:- Anctil -:- Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 22:26:07 (EST)
______________________op -:- Anctil -:- Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 04:51:11 (EST)
________________________joe's grandmother -:- Anctil -:- Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 16:40:23 (EST)
________________________Gail -:- Anctil -:- Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 23:39:01 (EST)
__________________John -:- hey dv! -:- Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 16:27:50 (EST)
____________________dv -:- hey dv! -:- Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 22:28:33 (EST)
________barney -:- Back to BM Drugs G. Dead -:- Sun, Jan 10, 1999 at 15:09:51 (EST)
__________Robyn -:- Back to BM Drugs G. Dead -:- Sun, Jan 10, 1999 at 20:27:18 (EST)
____________barney -:- Back to BM Drugs G. Dead -:- Sun, Jan 10, 1999 at 21:13:19 (EST)
______________Robyn -:- Back to BM Drugs G. Dead -:- Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 08:49:46 (EST)
______AJW -:- Going back... -:- Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 08:42:34 (EST)
________RT -:- A millennium phrase for you -:- Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 12:13:33 (EST)
________barney -:- Going back to the family -:- Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 15:31:48 (EST)
__________Helen -:- Going back to the family -:- Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 17:29:07 (EST)
__________Mickey the Pharisee -:- Going back to the family -:- Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 18:17:31 (EST)
____________Robyn -:- Going back to the family -:- Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 18:46:02 (EST)
__________AJW -:- Going back to the family -:- Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 07:38:36 (EST)
________barney -:- I've read your Journey, AJW... -:- Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 16:29:36 (EST)
__________chr -:- going back. -:- Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 17:23:32 (EST)
__________Gail -:- There ain't no family to go -:- Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 00:15:29 (EST)
________Gail -:- Going back... -:- Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 00:10:38 (EST)
__________Jim -:- Really, imagine it - JW -:- Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 00:46:00 (EST)
____________John -:- You're a better choice, Jim -:- Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 09:00:24 (EST)
______________Jim -:- oops -:- Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 09:28:48 (EST)
________________gerry -:- oops -:- Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 11:18:03 (EST)
______________Mike -:- I second the motion, Jim -:- Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 16:00:31 (EST)
__________AJW -:- Why be angry? -:- Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 09:35:48 (EST)
____________Jim -:- Why be angry? -:- Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 09:42:16 (EST)
______________AJW -:- Why be angry? -:- Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 10:49:06 (EST)
____________JW -:- Why be angry? -:- Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 13:42:05 (EST)
______________John -:- Why be angry? -:- Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 14:25:41 (EST)
______________AJW -:- Why be angry? -:- Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 05:17:23 (EST)

Sir David -:- Action on the newsgroup -:- Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 22:36:53 (EST)
__Brian -:- Action on the newsgroup -:- Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 23:26:20 (EST)
____Selene -:- Action on the newsgroup -:- Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 23:29:34 (EST)
______Brian -:- Adding A.C.M -:- Sat, Jan 09, 1999 at 00:25:15 (EST)
______Sir David -:- You can use Dejanews -:- Sat, Jan 09, 1999 at 11:43:21 (EST)
________Katie -:- link to alt.cult.maharaji -:- Sat, Jan 09, 1999 at 12:47:38 (EST)
__________Selene -:- link to alt.cult.maharaji -:- Sun, Jan 10, 1999 at 00:04:06 (EST)

Brian -:- Heretic's Journey -:- Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 21:19:45 (EST)
__Jim -:- Thanks very much -:- Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 21:35:27 (EST)
____Selene -:- Thanks very much -:- Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 23:23:49 (EST)
____Gail -:- Thanks very much -:- Sun, Jan 10, 1999 at 23:45:49 (EST)
__syd -:- Your Journey -:- Sat, Jan 09, 1999 at 08:58:27 (EST)
____Helen -:- Your Journey -:- Sat, Jan 09, 1999 at 14:39:58 (EST)

shp -:- time out for shp -:- Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 20:13:35 (EST)
__Runamok -:- Ship out for time -:- Sat, Jan 09, 1999 at 00:29:52 (EST)

shp -:- something we have in commom -:- Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 19:12:27 (EST)
__Runamok -:- a line in the dirt -:- Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 19:37:34 (EST)
____shp -:- hey now! -:- Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 20:00:24 (EST)
______Selene -:- hey now! -:- Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 20:14:08 (EST)
________shp -:- hey now! -:- Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 20:20:30 (EST)
__________Selene -:- thanks -:- Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 20:24:38 (EST)
______Runamok -:- we are ex-premie -:- Sat, Jan 09, 1999 at 00:31:49 (EST)
______Mike -:- Canals on Mars -:- Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 11:18:20 (EST)
____Jim -:- Really, Run? -:- Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 21:21:19 (EST)
______Runamok -:- Really running? -:- Sat, Jan 09, 1999 at 00:27:48 (EST)
________Jim -:- Not so fast there -:- Sat, Jan 09, 1999 at 15:27:27 (EST)
__________Runamok -:- If it ain't broke.. -:- Sat, Jan 09, 1999 at 16:40:26 (EST)
____________Jim -:- If it ain't broke.. -:- Sat, Jan 09, 1999 at 17:34:48 (EST)
______________Jerry -:- Learning science -:- Sat, Jan 09, 1999 at 17:49:04 (EST)
______________Runamok -:- If it ain't broke.. -:- Sat, Jan 09, 1999 at 17:54:56 (EST)
________________Jim -:- Daming with faint praise -:- Sat, Jan 09, 1999 at 19:44:11 (EST)
__________Jerry -:- Not so fast there -:- Sat, Jan 09, 1999 at 17:07:46 (EST)

Helen -:- If Gm doesn't have power -:- Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 14:28:02 (EST)
__shp -:- originally it was a love thing -:- Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 15:29:00 (EST)
____Runamok -:- love that 'thing' -:- Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 18:28:43 (EST)
______shp -:- myob, s'il vous plait -:- Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 18:37:12 (EST)
______shp -:- defend? moi? non, monsieur. -:- Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 18:43:28 (EST)
____Helen -:- originally it was a love thing -:- Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 20:34:13 (EST)
______shp -:- originally it was a love thing -:- Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 20:50:34 (EST)


Date: Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 16:03:37 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Book Burning
Message:
Recently someone again mentioned that at one point, Maharaji asked that the premies (destroy?/turn in?) all their old And It Is Divines, Divine Times, Elan Vitals and other publications, pictures, etc., that the former Lord of the Universe found embarrassing. In a recent Journey, someone recently said this little bit of revisionist dishonesty, was the last straw for leaving the cult.

But I would like to know more about this. When did it happen? How was it communicated and what were the reasons given? Did anyone protest? Did premies really do it? What, specifically, was supposed to be gotten rid of? Did it include the book Who is Guru Maharaj Ji?

Any information would be appreciated. Also, this little bit of information should, in my opinion, be included in the DLM history section. It must have occurred after I left the cult in 1983, because I don't recall it happening, and I think it would be something I would remember.

Despite his attempts to destroy the evidence of his past, it appears M had no control over the ex-premies who happened to save a lot of that material, as demonstrated by this website, and also JM's website.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 16:50:58 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Book Burning
Message:
I vaguely remember that the recall of the defective and dangerous consumer products was in 1984 or 1985. Heck, it might have been in 1983 as the result of your departure.

Our community had an entire library of audio tapes and had built a nice cabinet to hold them. I probably have a couple of those old tapes where he's squeaking and screeching and rambling on and on.

I remember in the '70 seeing boxes and boxes of unsold And It Is Andy Devine and thinking to myself that some day these things would be collectors items. I'd either be rich or dead if I had them today.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 08:45:32 (EST)
From: Heretic
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Book Burning
Message:
It was I who mentioned what I referred to as 'Book Burning' - but 'Rewriting History' would be a more correct term - in my recent journey. I cannot recall actual dates, as this was during my 'Foot in Both Worlds' phase, but it should have been early 80s. I did not hear the story about sending the stuff to 3rd world countries - or wait a minute, maybe I did, after all. Anyway, ashrams stuffed away old And it Is Divine magazines, all pictures with Krishna costumes and crowns, and also the horrifying 'Who Is Guru Maharaj Ji'.

My wife, who was very devoted, actually destroyed all our magazines and tapes - a pity, 'cause some of our material really would be collectors' stuff now.

Heretic
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 17:16:12 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Book hiding
Message:
As far as I can see, I made little research to find piles of old stuff in many vintage ex-premies' basements and cellars.

The BM succeded only with ashram premies I guess, and with the premies who left m&k and dumped everything they had.

The rest is still almost intact and in good shape (and out of your reach Mr Raw rat, he he).
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 20:35:30 (EST)
From: x
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Revision Tactics
Message:
JW,
I just happened to ask my mom about this the other day by chance, and she told me that she had been asked to donate her pictures and magazines etc., so that unfortunate premies in India and Africa could have these items. I didn't bother harrasing her to give me any information more detailed than that. Something about this story doesn't quite sound right to me though.
I would imagine that all these westernization things happened at approximately the same time. I'm sure they were just attempting to make their cult appear less scary, freaky and embarrasing to potential initiates. Words like mahatma, agya, prachad,darshan, etc. were dropped, also baragons, sheets over your head, arti, darshan, holy water, arti trays etc. were banned. Krisna suits became business suits and thrones became modest office chairs.
I wonder what our resident maharaji apologist and spin doctor, OP has to say about all this.
Care to 'clarify' any of this for us OP? Were listening.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 23:35:42 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: x
Subject: Purpose of Revision Tactics
Message:
Since OP hasn't responded, I'll try. MJ, being the wise LOTU wanted to appeal to a new type of devotee. After all, his only reason for existence was/is to bring THAT JOY, THAT PEACE, THAT UNDERSTANDING, THAT KNOWLEDGE, THAT GRATITUDE, AND THAT K to as many people as possible. It would hardly be fair to subject new recruits to Hinduism now, would it? Yuppies were MJ's new target market.

Recruits would run away without even scooping their coats if they witnessed darshan, arti, Krishna costumes, naked dancing, holi (bath) water, charnarmrit, and fairy tales. Everything was to be as neutral as possible.

Hence, the book burning crusade occurred in 1985. However, most of us never paid much attention. We couldn't believe that MJ himself would be making such a request. Most of us blessed London premies kept the memorabilia--along with the original belief system. Hell, St. Marys DCVI (high school) has a copy of Who is Guru Maharaj Ji to titillate the young minds (for slow readers I might add). I sent Brian a coloured copy of the album cover, 'LORD OF THE UNIVERSE. It's all still floating around.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 00:28:52 (EST)
From: x
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Details of recall days?
Message:
Hi Gail,
I'm curious, did anyone ever contact you during that time in '85 asking you to donate your outdated relics? If so did they give a reason Did the people in your community just ignore such requests? or wereyou never asked for this stuff? Anything about sending the stuff to India or Africa? I really can't imagine EV spending the time, energy, and money, to collect all these things, transport them to the 3rd world, and distribute them to all the needy premies there. Were you supposed to just destroy this stuff? How heavy was the pressure to comply?
I'm sorry to hit you with so many questions, but I would like to shed some light on this, I think this is a very interesting and relevant topic, so if anybody remembers any details about how this product recall was handled, I'd really like to hear from you.
I'm also still waiting for OP's clarification of these matters!
Thanks, x
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 04:36:08 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: x
Subject: Details of recall days?
Message:
As far as I recall, the premies involved in security (heavy ex-ashram premies) at that time were a bit heavy and giving strong satsang about it. These guys were in charge of destroying the materials, basically tearing up the materials and dumping them. I don't think they ever visited premies homes, except for the places (premies home) where satsang was held at that time, making sure there was no altar and no pictures here and there. That was for France anyway.

But me and a lot of premies I know, must have been the same everywhere, even now, listen and still act the way they like, and not the way they are told. The kind of satsang where you are told about what you should do and shouldn't do is what always made that many premies got fed up with DLM and EV, and kept distances with m's organizations. That's always been true for me, and what made me leave my position in EV and the whole cult.

This is part of the premies mentality also: act according to what they 'feel' - their 'heart', and not to what they are told. Even when the BM himself says something they don't like, they think it's for some others who need it - the bongos, not for them. Remember?
That's why the BM himself has not very much control over what happens in his own organization and amongst the premies, beside what he does himself: controling his show, his residences, the lands & the indian ashrams, the videos & other materials, the k sessions, some instructors and die-hard. And this is the core of the cult.

Beyond this, he's very much in quick sand: because he really doesn't teach ANYTHING.

His 'heart' stuff doesn't mean a thing. His 'teaching' is absolute void. Could you expect anything else in a cult?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 05:46:12 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: anthginn@yahoo.com
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Details of recall days?
Message:
I remember a couple of recalls, but I can't remember the dates. One was for cassettes of conferences etc, and the second was for videos like 'Family of Love' and 'Satguru has come'.

I think I've got a box of old Divine Times, And it is Divines, and Divine Light magazines in my cellar somewhere. I've also got a copy of 'Family of Love'. My 'Satguru Has Come', was out on loan to an ashram premie when the video recall happened, so he promptly handed it in. I've also got a massive box of old tapes from programmes, conferences etc. All are available for research. Email me if you're looking for something in particular.
Anth.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 06:35:30 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Details of recall days?
Message:
Hi,

one more pile of old stuff!

What would be interesting, but I know it's a big job, would be to make a list of all this, with the summary of each publication if possible. Specially the old divine times and divine light, and the first issues of AIID, before the schism. Maybe there are some nice things I don't have yet on my site ....

I don't know what could be done with all this stuff, and if it's really necessary.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 11:34:19 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Old stuff.
Message:
Dear JM:

I sent a pile of old AIID mags, Who is GM?, etc. to Jim and some other old stuff to Brian. You could contact them for that junk if you want. I can send you a bunch of old cassettes from early programs if you like? Also, I have all the really old (first) music releases if you want them. I really do want to be free of all this old junk.

When everyone is done with the old stuff, we should sell it back to MJ at a huge profit. The proceeds could be given to people on this site who need the cash due to shitty jobs or ill-health thanks to the SANT JI. I'd be more than happy to flog the stuff.

HUNSA BUNSA KI JAI!!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 19:48:47 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: djrayovac@aol.com
To: Gail
Subject: Old stuff.
Message:
Gail,

I am interested in the Blue Aquarius album if you might consider me as the recipient (if you have it). I will give it a good home and treat with the sternness it deserves.

My email is up top on this entry.

Thanks,
Runamok
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 20:40:19 (EST)
From: x
Email: x2000@goplay.com
To: Runamok
Subject: Sunny Kingdom poster
Message:
Does anybody have a poster or flyer with a colorful 70's style drawing of a mountainous waterfall strewn landscape bathed in sunlight bordered withthe phrase, Discover the Sunny Kingdom Through Meditation on it? Circa '73 or '74?
I used to have one of these little beauties on my wall, back in the day, and I thought it was cool, but unfortunately it got lost in the shuffle. If anyone knows what I'm talking about please contact me.
Thanks, x
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 22:42:54 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: x
Subject: Sunny Kingdom poster
Message:
Hi x - I know what you're talking about but I don't have one. They were actually pretty nice posters (there were two - that one and a blue one - I think they both came out around 1974). They used to have program announcements printed on them, and I used do service by going door to door in shopping centers getting merchants to hang one in their store window (aaagh!).
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 23:28:38 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Can you imagine?
Message:
What if the cult continued and we, like good, stultified JW's, STILL went shop to shop trying to hang posters of our guru? Think about THAT for a moment? Middle-age leafletters....

knock, knock

You: 'Hello! Any one home?'

Resident opening door: 'Well, hi Katie? What brings you here?'

You: 'Oh, hi Art. I didn't realize you lived here. I was just.. I was just..'

Art: 'What's up? You mean you didn't come to see me? Did I forget something important at the lab or something?'

You: 'No, I just... well, I happened to be in the neighbourhood and.. and.. and I've always admired this house and I thought I'd just knock and say..'

Just then the neighbour next door comes across the lawn

Neighbour: 'Hey, did you leave this pamphlet in my doorway, ma'am?'

You: 'Well, I..'

Neighbour: 'What gives you the right to come here and try to spread your religious prattle? What IS this nonsense? What are you doing here? Art, is this woman a friend of yours?'

Art: 'Sam, this is Katie Petkat. She works with me at the university. What are you talking about. Here, let me see... Katie, what IS this thing?'

You: 'Oh, Art, this is just a little ... you know...'

Sam: 'Art, don't you recognize this? This is a pamphlet for some Indian cult or something. You say you work together? Really?'

You: 'Well, I've got to go now...'
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 00:28:43 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: x
Subject: Sunny Kingdom poster
Message:
I have a trunk in a frind's house that has ALL the posters
in it.
Includeing many you never saw from before millenium.

mata ji= holiest mother of creation ect.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 20:54:39 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: dj rayovac?
Message:
Runamok, by email address I'd say that you appear to be some kind of Rave-trance DJ.

I'm both curious and frightened, for what purposes will you be using Blue Aquarius?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 23:29:40 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: dj rayovac?
Message:
Email me, my friend.

I keep my private life that way.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 11:22:43 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: x
Subject: Details of recall days?
Message:
It was requested that we not share old materials and concepts with new people in 1985, but no one officially asked people in London to do it. I do know that a lot of video tapes and magazines were destroyed. However, people kept their personal stashes. Even Anne Johnston didn't destroy her old stuff. She gave me her original copy of Arti (circa April, 1975) to photocopy two years ago for the locals. One fellow in Detroit still has numerous Ashram copies of videos from the 70s and early 80s (BETA). I sent Brian a copy of the Holi 79 Video and special Magazine with him wearing eye make-up and prancing around as the LOTU.

Even though much of the old stuff did not get destroyed, people stopped talking about their 'experience' and the 'past' to other old-timers and, of course, to new recruits. Of course, after the ashrams closed in London, there were only seven of us left who went on a regular basis. The pressure to conceal the past was more prevelant in bigger centres like Toronto and Montreal. London was/is just a non-starter community with zero growth.

Although, I continued to believe that MJ was the Lord, the first time I heard it aloud since the mid-80s was two years ago. MJ released some old clips with his feet bare. Anniebanannie almost came out of her skin with excitement (almost like the effect of a porno flick). That night, she referred to him as her LORD.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 12:04:15 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Details of recall days?
Message:
Gail: PAVLOV would be PROUD! A guy takes off his shoes to show his bare feet and people immediately start salivating and calling him LORD! he he he :-)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 09:40:14 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: 1985 is correct
Message:
Gail & JW: That's when I was told about it by a premie couple in Virginia Beach.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 10:13:53 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: op please confirm 1985 (nt)
Message:
Will you please?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 00:33:26 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: op p
Message:
Jean Michel!
I remembered I have the millenium poster that is a hoot and
would go good on your web site
My email is bburke @ rocketmail.com

I can't believe they used that photo on it.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 23:04:38 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: 1985 is correct
Message:
Mike in Arizona they asked us to 'burn the evidence' much earlier than 1985. I am certain of this because I had stopped all involvement by than, except the dumb events, programs, whatever. And when we were asked, I know I was still attending satsang at some hall, which we no longer had by then. Weird. My memory sucks about the cult in a lot of areas but I am almost certain this happened before 1981.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 00:03:15 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Book Burning
Message:
It was about the time you left JW.
All the old materials were to be gotten rid of.
Jean Marie was head of elan vital at the time.
rawat was in Miami still. at the complex (deca)
they were taking all the tapes and photos to be burned
but the premies kept intercepting and looting the stuff instead
of burning it. I got a small part of that.
We were later told to 'get rid of' the old stuff and I will have
to see what my memory recalls in the next couple days about
specific comments of the time.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 00:36:18 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: video Burning
Message:
That is how I got my copy of the movie -who is gmj-
the reason is needs the tape fixed is because it was
cut and thrown out at the elan vital site at deca.
luckily it is just a cut.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 15:56:17 (EST)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: a quote for AE
Message:
Maharaji himself claims to be today's equivalent of Jesus, from Who is Guru Maharaji, page 212:
In every age a great saint like Rama, Krishna, Buddha, Mohammed, and Christ has taken birth on earth for this purpose, to give this Knowledge to other people, because, in their time, the truth had declined, spiritual understanding had been lost. As far as spiritual matters go, they were ages of darkness. Now in the same way, an age of darkness is again here and the perfect one has come on earth again to plant the seed of truth. His presence is most necessary because of the strength of the opposite forces which are working in the world, attracting man with his weak and fickle mind.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 16:02:24 (EST)
From: Way
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: another quote for AE
Message:
Shri Hans Ji Maharaj explains why god comes in human body:
It is to provide the missing ingredient that the Lord incarnates forth from time to time in human body. For without obedience for and surrender to Him, one can never receive the Holy Knowledge. It is simple and logical. We can only receive God as much as we open ourselves up to Him. So to know Him we must love Him. Yet we cannot love an imaginary concept of God. We can only love that we have had experience of. So to love Him we must know Him. It seens insoluble, and this is why the Lord incarnates Himself. It is impossible to love God without coming into contact with God himself in human body.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 16:07:29 (EST)
From: Way
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: another quote for AE
Message:
Maharaji on love, from Who is Guru Maharaji, page 257:
You think that your wife, your husband, your children will give you love? No. It is the love of selfishness. Baby loves mother because mother gives milk, not because they have a connection. No. Just because of selfish love. In the same way, you love everything because of selfishness. But we love guru without any selfishness. It is pure and perfect love, it is that love which cannot be disturbed by mind at all.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 20:08:19 (EST)
From: AE
Email: thorninhisside@hotmail.com
To: Way
Subject: another quote for AE
Message:
Uggghh! Excuse me while I throw up. Yes, that's the sort of thing. Now somewhere there's that stuff that Jim quotes about guru being the highest manifestation of God etc.

And Jean-Michel; you don't mind if I lift some more of those pictures of Maharaji for Maharaji's Homepage, do you? Hey, Maharaji is certainly going to have a big web presence by the time we've finished with him!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 09:48:48 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: another quote for AE
Message:
Way: This IS an interesting quote! I would like premies to tell me that they would 'love' guru if all he said was, 'love me' instead of 'giving' them the experience of K.... he he he :-)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 10:28:56 (EST)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: another quote for AE
Message:
Mike, I understand your point. Do the premies line up in darshan lines to give Maharaji something or to get something from him? People who have received Knowledge are no different from before they received Knowledge, no different from anyone else. It's quite ironic that Maharaji says 'I will give you peace.' Anybody who tries to get something from a guru will end up dependent on an external source for what they should be getting from within.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 13:11:34 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Time for satsang!
Message:
So here's the latest premie cookie cutter from ELK:

'Michele Deradune
Austin, Texas, USA

A day with Knowledge

We are hoping to add a new section to the site called 'A day with Knowledge' - where people can put a totally current focus on their experiences rather than dwell on their life histories. (We still want you to keep on writing your Lives though.)

Having lived at least the first portion of our lives without practicing Knowledge, we can often note some very significant differences between our lives 'with' and 'without' Knowledge, this simple and utterly beautiful living essence within our own hearts which Maharaji has revealed to us. The Knowledge which Maharaji reveals cannot be encased in words, and cannot be described but only indicated. For it is a living experience, and for those of us who are fortunate to practice this Knowledge daily in our lives, it is a process of ever renewed freshness and wonderment. It is something which can only be experienced in the moment. It is something tried and trusted and found to be, again and again, fulfilling, satisfying and joyful.

Because Maharaji's Knowledge is not something that can be limited to mere words, it is truly a challenge, and a fun one, to attempt to express in words the effects Maharaji and Knowledge have had, and continues to have, on our lives. We are all individuals with our own qualities unique from every other individual in this world, yet at the same time this experience is something which is embedded within the most sacred shelter of each and every heart.

Michele Deradune is the first of us to meet this writing challenge, We welcome all similar contributions.


A day with Knowledge

There is so much to experience, so much to learn, and so much to grow. It is a continuous journey really, living with Knowledge. In the following I have attempted to express what a recent 'day with Knowledge' has meant for me.

Contending with some recent financial setbacks which in the past could easily have thrown me into somewhat of an emotional 'tailspin' I find that I am becoming a calmer person in the realm of practicing Knowledge. Listening to Maharaji's discourses, and daily going within to that inner well of Knowledge which he has shown me puts things in a different perspective than I have ever had before. My 'situation in this world' does not seem as cataclysmically important as the simple fact and preciousness of being lucky enough to be breathing.

Recently I learned something new about my own need to appreciate life, to not 'take for granted.' I had such a wonderful day on Wednesday, even though to look at my situation there was nothing really to point at that would make the day seem all that great. I was having to apply to a temporary employment agency to see about getting some low pay work, to help fill in the gaps of little or no work. I spent almost three hours at the agency, two hours of which were taking a battery of tests, and had other mundane and 'not so fun' stuff to do the rest of the day. And yet I felt so good, so upbeat, and I knew it was because I was feeling appreciative of my life, life itself, thanks to Maharaji's help and guidance and the time taken each day to go within. It was so magical to be able to feel so good and so 'right even amidst seemingly 'low circumstances. I really relished the whole day, and felt much awe just in living.

A BETTER DAY - OUTWARDLY
Then the next day I didn't feel quite so good. It was a 'better day' on the outward looks of it. A nice friend came by for a visit, and someone came by to pick up work and pay me. The kinds of things that should have made me feel better. And yet I noticed all the day, even after practicing, that I did not feel so happy as the day before, and even became vulnerable to the sadness of a recent romantic heartbreak. I really went on a bit of a bummer, you might say. I asked myself what I was doing differently from yesterday, that made today somehow less special. I could not figure it. I was hoping that going to listen to a video of Maharaji speaking at a recent event would shed some light.

I went and listened to the video with a hungry heart and rapt attention. Maharaji talked about the need for renewal, every day: the need to invite, to ask for, to welcome each new day that connection, that beauty of life. He talked about how he does this himself at the beginning of each of his days. It is something which comes from a humble place within, a place of anything but 'taking for granted,' and positioning oneself in a place of being truly open to feeling a real gratitude and appreciation of this life as by the Master's help this beautiful mystery of human life unfolds within our own hearts. It is something where you find yourself waking up in the morning and one of the first thoughts is a thankfulness for being alive, for having this breath so softly and so sweetly sustaining me.

After listening to this video, I realised that was the very thing that had made my one day so different from the next. On that Wednesday I had begun the day with a real asking and appreciation for my life and my very breath. Whereas on Thursday, there was something in me that felt I could somehow glide on the momentum of the previous day, that I need nor request nor renew. And then I wondered why I felt so low. And so I can see it, what he was saying, and how it applies to me. I can see how it was that on Wednesday I was not taking my life for granted, and on Thursday, really in a sense I was taking it for granted. Thanks to Maharaji's continued guidance, I have another lesson that helps me so much in my own process of enjoying life.

It is amazing how again and again what he teaches me is so simple and yet so profound and applicable in my daily life. Really I find not only the practice of the Knowledge he has revealed to me, but also a consistent pattern of listening to his recent talks, to be truly invaluable. It also stimulates thoughts about situations in my life. For instance, regarding this lesson in gratitude as opposed to 'taking for granted.' It reminded me of the not so distant past romantic relationship which ended in a break-up. The beginning of the end was when I felt taken for granted by my boyfriend. It had made my really very angry in the end. And I think about that and I have to laugh, how angry I was, and how much I myself have done the same thing: taken life itself for granted!

To appreciate my own life, and what Maharaji has shown me, I know that this is the key to real fulfilment, contentment and yes, enjoying life. When I will appreciate my life, the very life which sustains me, I know that no matter where I am, and no matter what my station in life, I will be the richest of the rich. Rich, with the gratitude that allows me to experience the true love inherent in life. Life. Itself. In this particular 'day in the life with Knowledge,' I find a resolve that I want to remember the renew my own gratitude every day, and not take this life for granted.'

Sick, isn't it? We're talking major religious trip here, folks. You wake up and, even before you turn to meditation for a natural, unforced 'experience', you're expected to negotiate your lucky charms, paint an internal smiely face on and .... tell me Michele this won't get a little old in a few weeks, lt alone months or years.

God, don't these idiots have ANY sense of human nature?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 13:59:13 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Time for satsang!
Message:
This story is really sad. It reminds me of the stupid stuff we used to listen to in satsang, and which Maharaji is now spouting at programs and in videos. The essense of this whole trip for poor old Michelle is the 'power of positive thinking' and perhaps some form of daily affirmations. There are lots of books out on those subjects, and judging from the sales, people do feel better when they think positively and do affirmations, just like Michellen does. Though, what this has to do with knowledge and Maharaji is less than clear. I think the crux of this religious belief system is when Michelle says the following about why on one day she felt shitty but felt better the next day:

After listening to this video, I realised that was the very thing that had made my one day so different from the next. On that Wednesday I had begun the day with a real asking and appreciation for my life and my very breath. Whereas on Thursday, there was something in me that felt I could somehow glide on the momentum of the previous day, that I need nor request nor renew. And then I wondered why I felt so low. And so I can see it, what he was saying, and how it applies to me. I can see how it was that on Wednesday I was not taking my life for granted, and on Thursday, really in a sense I was taking it for granted. Thanks to Maharaji's continued guidance, I have another lesson that helps me so much in my own process of enjoying life.

In a lot of ways, this really is what Maharaji's cult is about if you boil it down. It's a bunch of platitudes about stopping and affirming your life. The problem is, Michelle, many, many people do that and many many people enjoy their lives immensely and have never heard of Maharaji. But Michelle thinks she's special because she's got some kind of special gift. That way, she feels superior to most other people, despite her boring, difficult life. So whenever she feels good, she attributes it to Maharaji. Whenever she feels bad, it's because SHE failed to appreciate her life that day. It's such a circular, closed and utlimately meaningless belief system. And the fact that Michelle is caught up in it is really kind of sad. Better she should try to better her life by facing her problems than just trying to feel good while he life goes by.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 14:19:33 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: I can't resist
Message:
Good job Joe, but I think you missed a critical point.

On the 2nd day, when she didn't feel as good, a friend had visited her, and probably the worst kind, and old friend. Friends tend to interfere with the uninterrupted good vibe flow between devotee and master. The 1st day she had no such distraction, and was able to focus herself better even though as she pointed out she was doing things which should have been boring. The 2nd day the friend came and she lost her focus.

Solution? I think Michele should cut off all contact with anyone who causes her to lose her focus.

Hey, just kidding, just kidding!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 14:31:49 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: John
Subject: I can't resist
Message:
Yes, John. Those pesky human interractions can just make a premie lose focus and feel shitty. Who needs them? So, now that M has gotten rid of communities and nightly satsang, he should come out with a new platitude, taken from Jean Paul Satre:

Hell is other people!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 16:57:54 (EST)
From: Anne
Email: None
To: John
Subject: I can't resist
Message:
You are kidding but my 'premie' friend is not. He no longer wants any contact with me for fear of infecting me with something that he sees as having taken a great deal of courage to leave. This is what he really believes...?? Is this something new that gm is teaching, that all premies carry a disease?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 17:04:33 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Anne
Subject: I can't resist
Message:
Look, when I was a premie, I saw friends as potential premies only. If they were not interested in GMJ, then I was not interested in them.

Ouch, that hurts for me to even say that, but it was the truth. I was an asshole. Hopefully, your friend will snap out of it. Be straight with him/her, don't bs them. I am grateful to the friends who spoke straight to me about what an idiot I was. Eventually what they were saying made sense to me.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 11:35:46 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Anne
Subject: re-infection - or infection?
Message:
Hi Anne -
I know you had a thread about this below, but thought I'd comment on this up here where it's less likely to go inactive. I think what your friend said to you is really strange, honestly. The feeling I have gotten from a lot of premies is that they don't want to be around ex-premies because they might get 'infected' with our doubts. Are you sure that this isn't really what your friend meant? (I know he didn't say that, but maybe he didn't want to say that he was afraid of 'infection' from you.)

I really can't understand why he'd be so afraid of 're-infecting' you if he sees his involvement with M and K to be a good thing. It would seem like he would WANT you to still be involved. Besides, isn't it up to you to decide to take the risk of re-infection?

I know it hurts a lot to lose friends because they are premies and you aren't anymore - many people on here have experienced this (including me). I just don't think your friend is being honest with himself.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 17:17:00 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: John
Subject: I can't resist
Message:
I know that this has been mentioned before, but it seems appropriate in regards to the backsliding that Ms. Deradune experienced when her so-called friend visted her. They were probably chit-chatting.

At one of the recent Long Bitch programs BM scornfully mentions people over using the phrase How are you? to which his response was Leave me alone. Perhaps, Mr. Rawat needs to get back to the basics and read Dale Carnegie's How to Win Friends and Influence People.

Yes, all premeies need their Master's Help to allow them to experience the wonder of life. There's so much you can learn from the Fool on the Hill.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 20:36:11 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: JW
Subject: Time for satsang!
Message:
Dear JW,
I know I must have heard this 100 times at least at the forum but the way you said it it really sunk in:
Better she should try to better her life by facing her problems than just trying to feel good while he life goes by.

I have worked on facing things over the years, my New Year's Resolution is to open all my mail, no joke, I don't mean junk mail I mean all of it. I guess that was one thing that appealed to me. No pain but supposed gain into utopia on earth. Ha!
Love,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 21:58:21 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Implications
Message:
This could be the start of an interesting trend. Premies are now encouraged, once again, to 'share' their 'experiences' just like in the old days. The difference, of course, is that the only sharing allowed is that strained through the tight, tight filters of the Premie Pravda editors. It'll be fun to watch more premies try to spontaneously extemporalize the magic of the moment. Will it all sound like this latest Expression:

'Denis Marshall
Oxford, UK

What a wonderful feeling

I have enjoyed this wonderful Knowledge for many years, every breath just gets better, I cannot thank Maharaji enough. I hope many others will enjoy what I have enjoyed.'

Don't you just feel like squeezing this guy's face? I mean, really, 'every breath just gets better' for 'many years'? Give me a fucking break, Denis. Look, maybe this is a threat or something. Maybe I should be kicked off the net or locked up. Maybe I'm meely wallowing in the deep, poisonous vats of negativity that Brian and Katie keep on a low simmer for us all here at ex-premie central, but I REALLY want to squeeze this guy's face. I want to watch him try to tell me that breath after breath after breath, it all just keeps getting better.

I want to follow him around minute by minute, hour by hour, day by day. I want to see him get up in the morning and say 'wow, it's even better than before!' I want to watch him go to sleep thinking that he's never lived a day so sweet. All I can say is this guy sounds like a real tweetie bird. In fact, he sounds like Alex Perlman.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 11:58:06 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: You're invited for tea!
Message:
Hi everybody,

Happy New Year ....

And for those who don't know me yet, or for my friends already missing me, why don't you
come to my home?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 12:32:28 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: I almost lost my lunch!
Message:
Hey, you ought to warn people! I was expecting pictures of your family or something, not pictures of the ex guru!
Jeez, but it's not a personality cult, right?
Now, the way I was, I would never look at a picture of the guru on my own. I never grokked the basic point to it. Plus I was raised a catholic and had a deep mistrust of worshipping images of saints etc.
But Marilyn, now that was an image I didn't mind seeing. Remember that video of her and the ex guru running on the beach? Her dress was sort of starting to fall off, and breasts were about to be revealed in all their glory. I always figured it was ok to ogle her because it was shown during satsang.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 12:36:36 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: John
Subject: For women only!
Message:
Looks like some men don't like my face!
Am I so ugly?

I'll try to find some picture of my cat 'peepo', maybe you'll like him.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 13:32:56 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Not your face, silly...
Message:
your ex-guru's picture gallery is where I almost lost my lunch.

No, you are a strikingly handsome fellow.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 23:07:37 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Hi cutie. Wanna a date? (nt)
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 03:54:05 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: For Gail ONLY!
Message:
Hey you, can't you read english?
I said for Gail ONLY!

Hi Gail!

Did you receive my e-mails?
Why don't you send me your picture with your answer ...
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 12:27:58 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: John
Subject: I almost lost my lunch!
Message:
John, I was so much like you about the pictures of BM
I think the first 'drip' of leaving was when my so called friends brought me into the 'gallery' at Long Beach and they oood and awwd at the M pictures. I walked along with them thinking HUH?????
I bet the same 'sisters' would be bored to death at a good photo exhibit from a good photographer showing regular people, street scenes, etc.
assholes.

by the way JM, I think you are VERY handsome.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 12:50:11 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: So that's what you look like!
Message:
Hey JM,

I think it's a gas knowing what you look like. It makes a difference somehow. You look just right for being JM. Hard to explain.

By the way, who's the other guy?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 12:55:28 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: op might tell you!
Message:
Who is the other guy.... If that's not clear enough!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 13:06:15 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmai.com
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: You're invited for tea!
Message:
Dear Jean-Michel,
Thanks, it was nice seeing your picture although not as nice seeing the pictures of the BM! :)
Happy New Year to you too.
Love,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 13:09:49 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: J-M
Subject: You're invited for tea!
Message:
Hi J-M -
Glad to see your picture - you look almost exactly like the image of you that I had in my mind. Interesting. By the way, you are a lot better-looking than 'that other guy' :)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 15:36:11 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: You're invited for tea!
Message:
Thank you Katie ..... at least someone who likes me!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 20:18:44 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: You're invited for tea!
Message:
Very French and distinguished looking. How did that intellegent guy get so wrapped up into Maharaji's trip? The same way we all did, I suppose. Glad you're around now to tell people the truth.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 20:45:48 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: You're invited for tea!
Message:
Yes, it is good to see your face. You look rather bemused in that convertible as if to say 'Bond...James Bond.' I must say that GM was a beautiful child. Then he lost his innocence and turned into a not so beautiful adult. So sue me, any of you lurking premies, I just don't find him attractive anymore. People who do shitty things to other people lose their charm real quick, ya know?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 02:42:01 (EST)
From: syd
Email: syd@gold.ac.uk
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: You're invited for tea!
Message:
Je te remercie! Tu aimes boire un coup chez moi? Cul sec!

I hadn't seen so many pictures of m since I left so it was an interesting experience. I noticed bow closed his eyes look, very different from the wide-open gaze he had as a young child.

A couple of questions - do you know if the ski-ing shot was with premies or is it a shot of him out in the public view? Second, the premie on the ground near m in the garden satsang picture - is that you?

A plus tard
Syd
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 03:51:38 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: syd
Subject: You're invited for tea!
Message:
Tu aimes boire un coup chez moi? Cul sec!

Do you have some good schnaps?

A couple of questions - do you know if the ski-ing shot was with premies or is it a shot of him out in the public view? Second, the premie on the ground near m in the garden satsang picture - is that you?

The ski-ing shot: I don't know! The only thing I know about skiing is that he used to go to public resorts (with family) for skiing. He doesn't ski anymore since he almost broke his knee a few years back, after some prefect accident I guess.

The garden-satsang: that was in La Tierra del Amor (M's land in Argentina) a few years back. The guy sitting behind him is Diego de Alzaga (instructor from Argentina). A very nice guy.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 14:59:54 (EST)
From: syd
Email: syd@gold.ac.uk
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: You're invited for tea!
Message:
He doesn't ski anymore since he almost broke his knee a few years back, after some prefect accident I guess.

Well, he must be getting a little older, must affect his co-ordination. And to imagine I used to think he was timeless and eternal... :-)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 20:37:20 (EST)
From: JohnCavad
Email: JohnCavad@yahoo.com
To: Everyone
Subject: YOU'RE ALL DOING A GREAT JOB
Message:
I'm so proud of all of you ex-premies still spreading the truth about GMJ and his true mission. I see Jim and Katie are still here fighting off brainwashed-premies invading our site and entertaining the rest of us. Great work. Katie is still a sweetheart, and Jim is always beating up poor helpless devotees with his keen intellect and litigious temperment.

I rarely post on this site anymore since the Military looks at every web site I download. (No, I'm not paranoid. I work for them.) I wouldn't want our government them to ever know I was once a part of an anti-government organization. Freedom of Religion in America, you think? Indeed not when it pertains to having anything to do with dangerous cult leaders. David Koresh is proof of that.....

Regardless, I thank you all for keeping this site alive. I still get lots of email from kind exes and of course from loving premies begging me to come back to GMJ (or at least mail a personal check to him).

Happy New Year to all.
John
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 23:08:53 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: JohnCavad
Subject: YOU'RE ALL DOING A GREAT JOB
Message:
Thanks John, Happy New Year to you as well!! And thanks for the email awhile back. I wrote an addendum to my Journey story based upon your observation that I had not found closure with the premie chapter of my life.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 00:17:09 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JohnCavad
Subject: Thanks, John
Message:
John,

I wonder what would happen if you discussed this matter frankly with your employers. You know, tell them that you used to be in this ridiculous 70s cult and just now, with the advent of the internet, are able to discuss that episode with a number of other ex-members. Surely there's a way you can present it that makes it all at worst bemusing. They might even see it as some measure of public service and worth a few background brownie points.

But, beside that, thanks for your support.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 04:21:47 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: JohnCavad
Subject: YOU'RE ALL DOING A GREAT JOB
Message:
Dear John,
You stopped posting shortly after I found the site. I use to enjoy reading what you had to say. Good luck to you, and Happy New Year!
Love,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 11:27:58 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: JohnCavad
Subject: Thanks, John!
Message:
Hi John,
Thanks for saying I'm a sweetheart - now can you just convince Jim of that? :) Seriously, I wish you could still post on here - I always liked your posts.

Take care,
Katie

P.S. Brian is still hanging in there as Perfect WebMaster, too - keeping the place up and running.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 20:16:25 (EST)
From: John Cavad
Email: johncavad@yahoo.com
To: Katie
Subject: Thanks, John!
Message:
Thanks to all of your dedication to this site, I found closure (or at least the closest thing possible to it) after 14 years as an ex-premie. Your positive and constructive influence on people is greater than you realize. Because of all the backlash you get from current premies and the myriad of idiots in cyberland, you may lose sight of all the benefits you bestow upon so many others. So, I was very serious when I say, you really are doing great work. Yes, even my most vocal yet extremely witty friend, Jim, does so much good on this site. (It's a good thing people like Katie can help neutralize his venemous bites...just kidding Jim.)

I will make an earnest effort to post more often. The very best to all of you.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 20:23:07 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The head of Gary Epton
Message:
Finally got through to ELK only to find that my old friend, Gary Epton, is back into the guru:

'Gary Epton
Ottawa, Canada

Home again

They say absence makes the heart grow fonder. It feels so good to come home again. Thanks, Maharaji, for showing me what 'love' is.'

Gary, Gary, Gary,

Anyone know Gary? Really smart, intense and wryly funny guy from Ottawa. Great at spiritual staring contests, dry jokes. Something of a drummer too, I understand. Gary visited me out here on the island about five years ago. I remember we went out to Mystic beach and walked around a bit. Can't remember exactly where Gary was at on the Hamster then although I recall we were arguing (civally, of course). I think he was acknowledging grand bases for doubt but firm in his resolve to not give in or something.

So now, it appears, Gary's basking once again in the warm glow of the Hamster's televised inspiration and fake cheer. When I saw that post I called informtion for Ottawa but, unfortunately, the guy's not listed.

So here's the thing. I know for a fact that many years ago, Gary, being the sharp straighshooter that he WAS, would never have skirted the big issues to keep in the comfort zone. No way. Gary was the perfect model of the 'sincere seeker of truth'. Upright, maybe a litle uptight, but essentially alright.

Now, however, I wonder what he would say to all the outrageously overwhelming evidence against his man. This is really why I think understanding and accepting the reality of evolution can be central to one's detoxification from the Hamster's infection. Even if I somehow meandered into his den again and succumbed to his warm, dragon breath (hamster dragon, of course), I'd still have the basic facts of evolution to protect me. The notion of masters of any kind completely falls apart in the face of this knowledge. Gary, I take it, was a little lonely, maybe a little nostalgic. Hell, I don't know how far he drifted; how can I say what took him 'home'? But I can't wait to talk with him.

Anyone out there with his number I'd really appreciate it. If you have it, would you please email me? Thanks:

heller@bc1.com
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 17:28:48 (EST)
From: RT
Email: omm
To: Everyone
Subject: BBC news: middl cls risk cults
Message:
-from www.sightings.com ADVICE at bottom.

Wanted: Middle-Class Professionals - Cult Favorites
BBC News 1-6-99

Are you a well-educated professional with a healthy bank balance?
Are you intelligent with an idealist streak? Then watch out, you're just the sort of person cult recruiters are looking for.

That's according to former cult member Ian Howarth, who now runs
a UK charity to help cult victims. Howarth gives out information on cults and warns about deceptive
methods used by cults to recruit new members.
'People are recruited rather than actively joining,' Mr Howarth said. 'People are usually approached by a friend, possibly to go on a weekend course with other professional people.
'There are lots of myths about cults. Everyone's vulnerable.'
According to Mr Howarth the average cult takes less than four days
to fully recruit a new member, but the effects can be far-reaching.He himself was in a cult in Toronto, Canada for just two and a half weeks when he was 31. He says it took him 11 months to recover from the experience.
'I managed to get out because of a journalist,' he said. 'Cult
members are programmed to believe the media is the work of the
devil. I had not yet been programmed - I was still open to media
input.'

Armageddon?

There are growing fears that doomsday cults are stepping up
activities because of the millennium, but too much emphasis is
placed on this according to Mr Howarth.

He said: 'It may be relevant to certain groups but there are so many variations on when the end of the millennium actually is. Some say it's the end of 1999 whereas mathematically it's the end of the year 2000.
'If you have gained control of a person's mind who cares what year it is?' Stephen, another man, who asked only to be called by his first name, said his son Patrick was drawn into a cult aged 18. He had three grade A A-levels and was due to go to university.

'My son was seen as a leader of his school, a good public school. By all standards he should have been cult-proof,' he said.

'But on the other side of the coin he was highly susceptible. Cults offer utopia. They have all the solutions to life. '

Seeds of doubt

Patrick spent about eight years as a member of the Unification
Church, commonly known as the Moonies, and started training to be
a group leader. It was only then that he started to have doubts and two years ago he walked out.

'He gave up his career to serve God - that's what he said. The
harder you work, the more committed you become. That's what he
really believed,' Stephen said.

'Until he started becoming a leader himself and began to realise that everything he'd been told wasn't right. He had more time to think about it.

People do break away from cults, often through the help of their
family, explained Ian Howarth, but there are no guarantees. Patrick took about four months to get the Unification Church out of his system and is now doing an accountancy course in London.

Patrick's wife - matched in a Moonie wedding - was kidnapped by
her family, but after three weeks she walked out and went back to
the group.

'If you remove someone from one belief system and replace it with
something else and that is taken away, that person is left with
nothing and that can drive them mad,' Stephen said.

The Cult Information Centre offers advice to people who suspect a friend or family member is in a cult:

DO try to keep in regular contact even if there is little response DO express sincere love for the cult member at every available
opportunity DO always welcome the cult member back into the
family home no matter what is said DO NOT rush into adopting a
solution without researching the cult problem DO NOT say:'You are
in a cult; you are brainwashed' DO NOT be judgemental or
confrontational towards the cult member DO NOT give money to
the member of the group.


+++
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 17:58:41 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: RT
Subject: BBC news: middl cls risk cults
Message:
Thank you, RT. Great info. I have a dear friend who is a moonie. Her own mother had a lobotomy when she was a child. My theory is that this was my friend's equivilent to a lobotomy. She unconsciously did as her mother did

She still is herself to a degree but not really. I feel that she kind of died to herself and was replaced with a new person, a 'spiritual person' with a lot of programmed garbage about Rev. Moon. This friend and I talk and write letters. We have had one confrontation in which she really asserted herself to me which I thought was good. It actually was a good sign to me. We are still friends--I really love her. I have many memories of her being a strong artist back in high school

Verrry interesting, these cults.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 21:10:03 (EST)
From: Nimrod
Email: None
To: RT +Helen
Subject: BBC news: middl cls risk cults
Message:
HI GUYS!
Very interesting,indeed! and I have the following recollections, I would like to share with you.
It was Oct.96,I was in Toronto on a business trip,and one evening I happened to attend a 'KNOWLEDGE PRE-SELECTION' meeting with aspirants, presided by Charanand, who was in town.
Now there was this point where Charanand actually began speaking about the aspirants' 'economic' situation, beginning by explaining to them in effect, that people with
little money would find themselves frustrated in M's world.AS he explained , they would be unable to travel to events, they would further be frustrated by their inability to express their devotion by making donations as a 'natural expression of love for Maharaji that comes from your heart, naturally as gratitude, for the gift he gave you.' For this reason, he explained POOR PEOPLE, were being discouraged from seeking k until they could somehow find themselves in improved economic conditions.
He then went on to say that RICH people were also discouraged from asking for for k, because as he put it,' rich people are too into their money, and seem to have other things on their minds than what we are talking about here.' SO who did Charanand say WERE the ideal candidates to ask for and
be given k? you got it.MIDDLE CLASS PEOPLE.AS he put it, middle class people had their jobs, they had ENOUGH money that they could happily participate in M's world, but NOT SO MUCH , that they were obsessed with their money, like rich people are.
SO this report from the BBC totally corresponds to the reality of the situation in terms of M and his cult.Middle class people are definitely the target here.No doubt about it. Confirmed by Charanand himself.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 22:51:48 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Nimrod
Subject: BBC news: middl cls risk cults
Message:
That is wild, really wild, Nimrod. I can't believe he came right out and said that. In a way, I find his honesty refreshing. At least it revealed to people a little about the lifestyle they might expect when they sign up to be a premie
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 01:20:18 (EST)
From: Nimrod
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: BBC news: middl cls risk cults
Message:
hi Helen!
yes it was quite revealing for the aspirants,but I feel that after 5 or so months of videos and whatnot, they had been well programmed, prepared for the kind of stuff that Charanand was now telling them;the kind of stuff you DON't get at the introductory programs.And all the aspirants seemed quite roaring to go.Well, give 'em time.
By the way Helen, thanks for your offer below to introduce Little Yiddish Grandmother to Uncle Abie.I think he knows that he needs some company sometimes,and he's just thrilled to have a date.These days however, he's really busy with his Jewish Mini Golf League, where all the members have to play with circumcized putters.
In any case Abie, will post you when he gets a chance, and we'll talk again soon I hope.
Take care
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 23:55:07 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Nimrod
Subject: BBC news: middl cls risk cults
Message:
Jeez Nimmy, what was Charanand drinking that night?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 00:31:08 (EST)
From: Nimrod
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: BBC news: middl cls risk cults
Message:
I don't know what he was drinking...but I had a couple shots of scotch, before plopping myself down in my seat at the meeting.
EArlier on that day, I had received a bee bite on the inside of my mouth, when a bee found its way to the inside of this hotdog I was eating.I ended up eating a bit of this bee, along with the hotdog, but not before it GOT ME GOOD!!
IN any case, in the absence of solid info as to the proper treatment,I settled for a couple of scotch at a bar not too far from the hotel.
A couple shots and Charanand!What a way to treat a bee-bite!!
Actually, I think the shots helped more than Charanand.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 11:18:26 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Nimrod
Subject: ouch!
Message:
I think I would need more than a couple shots if that had happened to me. I'll think of it whenever I eat food outside. I had a bee fly in my ear once. But I screamed and it flew out.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 02:11:10 (EST)
From: Nimrod
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: ouch!
Message:
You're right.It did take more than a couple shots.Especially AFTER listening to Charanand, I went back for a couple more.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 13:17:34 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Nimrod
Subject: BBC news: middl cls risk cults
Message:
Nimrod:

Did Charanand actually ask aspirants what their economic situations were and indicate that if they were poor they wouldn't be given knowledge? Or was it some kind of general 'warning' about the need for a decent cash flow in order to be able to experience knowledge?

But when you think about it, it's hypocracy to the extreme either way. First, this knowledge is suppposed to be for everyone, regardless of economic situation, but it seems this has become a credit card cult. The second, obvious, hypocracy, is that Maharaji himself is rolling in money, and seems to spend it like there is no tomorrow, on luxuries that most people will never get near in their lifetimes. But Charanand got one thing right, though, it's VERY obvious, by his actions not his words, that Maharaji is MUCH more into his money than into knowledge. In fact, it appears that 'knowledge' is just a good means to get MORE money.

But it does seem clear that Maharaji is going after the prospects that are the most likely to be good sources of income for himself.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 01:57:13 (EST)
From: Nimrod
Email: None
To: JW+ Jethro
Subject: BBC news: middl cls risk cults
Message:
Hey JW! No,Charanand didn't actually indicate that if an aspirant was in poor economic circumstances he or she would not be given k.It was more along the vein of a general warning,in which he painted an extremely grim picture of what he called the 'frustration' of having k, but not enough money to enjoy it.And he did actually ask the aspirants present, that if anyone felt that he or she was in that situation,to talk to him about it.
Even as I was listening to it then, it sounded like the most honest admission possible, that 'KNOWLEDGE' does NOT stand on its own. Its enjoyment depends on the amount of money you have.
But Jethro, you got me thinking.Did Charanand, really mean it when he spoke about the rich being so into their money that they are unable to appreciate the subject matter of k?
Perhaps, he was just paying lip service to this supposed problem of being rich with k, so that he would not appear to be discriminating against the poor, by only adressing their situation.Perhaps he was also 'fishing' to find out if any of these aspirants had a bundle they wanted to deposit at the Bank Of Lotus Feet.Then again, perhaps there has been an actual history of rich people posing a problem for M. I mean, if I had more money than I knew what to do with, I'd love to tie his ass up in court.Just speculation on my part, but perhaps most of the lawsuits from premies that M has had to face has come from premies with money.Afterall, lawyers don't come cheap.
Anyways, a word of caution to any and all aspirants who might end up at a Charanand meeting.Be careful, this guy is as smooth as silk.As smooth an operator as you could find anywhere.I think M should be kissing HIS feet.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 22:42:48 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Nimrod
Subject: Even then
Message:
Anyways, a word of caution to any and all aspirants who might end up at a Charanand meeting.Be careful, this guy is as smooth as silk.As smooth an operator as you could find anywhere.

You know, when I was in Calgary in the late 70's, right before I finally left the ashram, I had a chance to spend a little time with Charanand. Guess what? I didn't like him! I played tennis with him a few times and never found him the least bit personable. I mean, there just wasn't anything special there. We both wanted to win and that was about it.

Then there was the matter of music at satsang. Here I am writing all these cool devotional songs without the slightest taint of ego and this asshole comes to town and usurps my premiere premie billing! Like, tell me, do you really want to hear 'Downpour of the Holy Name' TWICE in one night? EVERY night? Give me a fucking break! I know for a fact that some of the fools that urged him on like that did so only to fuck with me. NOBODY likes that Indian stuff that much! But, face it, the average satsang regular kept a mental note of who gave satsanng, how often and for how long. We were connoisseurs (had to look that one up) of the moment, sly critics, closet gossip columnists every one. Was it fair that I get to shoot my mouth off at least a few times a week AND play a few songs each night too? No fucking way!

So Mahatma Ji comes to town and there's an opportunity for revenge. Let the old Indian guy do his thing and make Jim cool his heels a bit. But you know what? I KNEW Charanand was in on it! He knew what was what. They didn't call him GURU Charanand for nothing.

Then there was food. Now why in the world did only Mahatma Ji get the really nice jam? The really nice cheese? The better rice? I mean, I was working. I didn't ask for much. Why couldn't I eat some of that basmati stuff too? I was at least as surrendered as the next guy on a good day. I'd paid my dues. What kind of universe was this, I wondered.

And his satsang... brothers, sisters, let's face it. Charanand was BORING! He was so fake, all I could do was sit there and remember the tennis game that morning. This guy was about as realized as my uncle Rube. Only Rube didn't make me sit at his feet night after night and listen to him try to impress everyone with his amazing ability to spontaneously rhyme words ending in 'ate'. Now, looking back, I'm sure Charanand practised those.

Naw, I never liked the guy. I mean, in the END I stopped liking him. It got to the point where I'd hear he was coming to town and I'd want to take off somewhere. Mind you, all initiators started to rub me the wrong way. Well, most of them.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 02:35:22 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Nimrod
Subject: BBC news: middl cls risk cults
Message:
' rich people are too into their money, and seem to have other things on their minds than what we are talking about here.'

Yes but I am sure that the supremem lord in all his mercy, may make some exceptions and accept some exceptionally rich people.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 17:14:16 (EST)
From: Anne
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: re-infection risk to m&k
Message:
I am questioning the response I received from a dear old friend, who still practices k and is activly involved in his community. I felt that to continue on with our renewed friendship I had to be honest with him about my views on m&k and that if he liked he could read my entry into the Journeys section of this site. (which he stated he would not)
I am very sad to lose him as a friend, but friendships I have valued are based on honesty and trust and love.
He writes me:

'But I feel as if I would always feel mistrusted BECAUSE I PRACTICE KNOWLEDGE and could REINFECT you again with something that must have taken a GREAT DEAL OF COURAGE TO LEAVE. I think I would always feel a little like I CARRY A DISEASE that I could give you and that I would have to be very careful and prove constantly that I would never do that to you.'

A negative response I expected but, to make the reason our friendship has to end an..... infection? Oh lord, won't you buy me a night on the town.... a much easier way to get an infection ..... why would it take so much courage to leave?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 17:44:06 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Anne
Subject: re-infection risk to m&k
Message:
WOW, sounds like your friend is wishing he were you, and in an understated way, complimenting you for extricating yourself. It reminds me of those break-up lines 'You're too good for me, you deserve someone better'.

Re-infection is a really good analogy, I think. Until one has unravelled all the pieces of the puzzle it does feel like that. This is what is so sad--perfectly good people have the tentacles wrapped in their brains, and bodies, it's so easy to happen!!Finally, blessedly, through the help of the forum this is one infection that I really do feel I have a choice over!! It's quite a psychodrama process unravelling from this trip!!

Congrats on being honest--your friend may join you one day.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 17:44:10 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Anne
Subject: re-infection risk to m&k
Message:
Anne: Your 'take' is certainly valid, but I read it just a bit differently. I think your friend thinks that YOU will always be judging him/her with the 'cult' yardstick; clearly not the case. What you said about true friendship applies here: Honesty, trust and love. If you care to, I think it 'might' be appropriate to let your friend know that you don't consider him/her to be a disease. If the friendship is worth salvaging, this just might do it. Hey, I have friends that are of MANY different religious faiths and it NEVER really comes up in normal conversation. If the original friendship that you had with this individual was NOT based upon M & K (e.g. M&K weren't the only common denominator), then maybe you can set some 'ground rules' honestly and clearly for the friendship to continue. Just a thought.... ;-)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 20:56:48 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com
To: Anne
Subject: It's all hype
Message:
Why not explain to him that the knowledge is all hype. Tell him that it's his preference if he wants to practise some form of meditation and you don't mind at all because now you see it for what it is.

I think the main problem here is that Maharaji hypes meditation into being something which it isn't. And that's because he's never done any meditation or understands it. Meditation, by its very nature could never be a thing that you'd want to force down someone's throat or make them feel guilty about not practising it.

Really, if a person practises meditation, it wouldn't make someone feel uncomfortable. I get the feeling that like most premies, your friend is trying to practise some impossible bullshit philosophy as layed down by Maharaji. That perhaps is what being a premie is now. The simple practise of meditation is neutral.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 23:43:30 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: I think this guy is Another
Message:
I ran into the premie Anne speaks of in May, 1998 at the Miami program. It was the first time he had been to a program in over 18 years. After MJ talked about premies 'not going out on the net,' he and I discussed this site more extensively. He is the fellow who posted his name here on ex-premie asking to reconnect to MJ. EV contacted him dah dah dah.

At any rate, after I stumbled onto this site, I e-mailed him. He wrote back a few times and posted here as well (the breath within a breath guy). I gave Anne his e-mail address and they rekindled an old friendship. He changed his address and told Anne not to give it to me. I almost think that premies have been told not to associate with anyone who posts here.

Anyway, the situation sucks.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 02:14:38 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com
To: Gail
Subject: I think this guy is Another
Message:
Yes it does suck. I have the greatest admiration and good feelings about you Gail. Although people only talk here from afar on an impersonal medium, I get an impression of what you've been through with Maharaji's cult and the premies and you know what girl? I think you're great, so there!

A pity all the people here are seperated by space. There's some great characters here and we've all been through a lot. You have great resilience and perseverence, Gail. You're an inspiration. If the real Lord had incarnated down here, I know he'd think the world of you. There would be no closed doors but a red carpet layed out for you. I am so glad that your life isn't being wasted on a fake dream anymore. I can hear your spirit resounding down the cyber wires and it's good to see it alive and reclaiming the real Gail. Don't ever let anyone try to suppress that ever again. And that's true for us all!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 22:23:57 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Thanks darlin'. I needed that.
Message:
The same goes for you. If it hadn't been for that two-year raw diet ... who knows. I was talking about you to Mark Anderson last night. He is still stuck with the programming although he hasn't really been around since 1980. You may know him. He worked as MJ's gardener at Riegate from 71-74 or thereabouts.

Isn't is scarey to think that the beliefs stay with you long after the MJ romance is gone.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 02:27:35 (EST)
From: Nimrod
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: I think this guy is Another
Message:
Amen, Sir Dave.
I second the motion.
Of all the London Ont. premies, I always felt that Gail was the most real, the most herself.
No wonder, she's here with us.And no wonder that it is such a joy for all of us, that she is!!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 22:13:25 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Nimrod
Subject: I think this guy is Another
Message:
Thanks to you, too. I really hope you are coming this way soon. I'd love to see another live ex. I'm lucky to have Anne to talk to. I hope you have some exs there and support, too.

Luv,

Gail
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 03:57:15 (EST)
From: op
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: It's all hype
Message:
And that's because he's never done any meditation or understands it

Dear Dave:

I swore to myself I wouldn't get involved in discussions and arguments here. I've been posting things only when I see a need for clarification on a subject.

But this is about the tenth time (no, I haven't been counting, it just seems that way) that you've made this statement, and it irks me.

How do you know that M has never done meditation? Because he doesn't stay on stage during a Knowledge review? I've seen M doing meditation, and when he does a K review, it's rather obvious to me that he knows whereof he speaks.

Certainly you can feel however you want about M, you can make all sorts of statements about rumors if you feel they have some grounding in reality. But this is one 'fact' that I just don't get. Unless you lived with M for a few years, there is no way that you could know what his experience of 'meditation' is.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 11:33:43 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: op
Subject: It's all hype
Message:
I've been posting things only when I see a need for clarification on a subject.

I don't know whether Maharaji meditates or not, and don't really care. But I'm fascinated that you find so little here that requires your personal clarification.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 10:13:20 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: op
Subject: All pranam to the holy OP
Message:
OP: READ YOUR post again and then tell us how little ego you possess. 'Clarification'..... yeah, right! We REALLY NEED your clarification!

BTW, we don't 'feel' our way around M, as you suggested. WE THINK our way around M.... you know.... we us the gray matter that is located within-inside the cranium!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 00:21:36 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Infinite is his glory
Message:
Atman Das says, 'Infinite is the Glory of the Perfect Master and also his Grace, for he's the great Giver ; eyes were opened to Infinity by his Grace and I then saw beyond all time and space.'

It's all on the newsgroup, alt.cult.maharaji. We're both having a shouting match over there. Not really talking to each other, just proclaiming our viewpoints. Perhaps someone else might join in...
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 08:35:00 (EST)
From: cavalry
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Infinite is his glory
Message:
give us a link please
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 09:11:58 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: cavalry
Subject: Infinite is his glory
Message:
Dear Cav,
I think it is in the thread below by Sir, Action on the Newsgroup. :)
Love,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 09:53:03 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: cavalry
Subject: Infinite is his glory
Message:
Dear Cavalry; you can go to Dejanews and then type alt.cult.maharaji in the search field, press FIND and then you'll get the latest posts on the newsgroup.

Alternatively, you can use your newsreader for Usenet and connect to alt.cult.maharaji that way.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 10:49:13 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Atman's a moron
Message:
sir: I loved this quote that the guy put up:

Vibhishana said to him :
'Tie this thing in a corner of your wearing-cloth, and you will cross the sea safely. You will be able to walk on the water. But be sure not to examine it, or you will sink.'

It sounds alot like the 'rotten vegetables' satsang, doesn't it? 'Don't examine it?????' Why not? If it's REAL, you could examine it until the cows come home and it wouldn't matter. So-called gurus have been using the fear-tactic for a very long time, apparently!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 02:39:25 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: He's a not where it's atman
Message:
I think all his posts are an attempt to counteract those anti-M posts by Web Watcher (me). He doesn't have a lot to say so he's just copied some bits out of some old scriptures/fairytales and satsangs. Sad really, I have the greatest respect for anyone's religion and there freedom to believe in it. I would have no gripe against him but I think the truth about Haharaji must be told.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 17:36:35 (EST)
From: RT
Email: ommm
To: All, FUN creative writing
Subject: Atman and Baragon 2 the rescue
Message:
'Holy Name Atman! There's a moldy oldy Premie speaking DLM!
Shall I superglue his earplugs in?'

'No, Baragon, that would be too EASY..he'd stay on the WEIRD
and sing the Praises of what is, in fact, a dead Master-at least a dead concept of a Master!' That would be double karma!

'Well, Golly Jesus, Atman, What shall we do?'

'Baragon, this is a cult and I am going to leave it up to the
former members of DLM to finish his Story!'

ASSIGNMENT: HOW ATMAN STOPPED AN OLD TIME PREMIE FROM CULT-SPEAK.

PLEASE FINISH THE STORY. WINNER GETS A GENUINE 'AND IT IS DIVINE' FROM THE RT ARCHIVES!

RT [who is late for the gym, dinner and a juggling class.]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 10, 1999 at 22:48:33 (EST)
From: chr
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: finances
Message:
I'm trying to get some sort of objective handle on Ms finances.Right from the beginning I was disturbed by aspects of his lifestyle.However I also respected him for not charging for K.A few questions that somebody out there might have some answers to;1] Is M finding it difficult these days to support his lifestyle,especially with a $25 mil. jet and seemingly few premies being financially supportive.2]Has K been free of charge because of some genuine ideal ,perhaps passed on from his father, of not charging for a spiritual experience?--there was the old comment that K is priceless ,therefore it cant be charged for.3]Or has he not charged for K because that would take him and the organisation out of the non-profit, religion category and mean paying taxes etc.I got the feeling over the years that M genuinly believed ,as Perfect Master, he deserved and was entitled to his vast wealth and that he thought it was a privilege for a devotee to be able to support him. ( There was that ridiculous statement he made years ago that the disciples would have given Jesus the best donkey).
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 10, 1999 at 23:17:27 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: chr
Subject: finances
Message:
However I also respected him for not charging for K.

Why does this impress you? This is part of the come on. It is absolutely 'free.' This is great PR, but we all know that is complete bullshit. By the time someone receives knowledge, especially these days, they are so programmed that it is likely they will do a number of things that will end up benefiting Maharaji financially.

1. They might send him money directly;
2. They might buy videos, trinkets, repulsive CDs., etc.
3. They might attend a program, paying the entrance fee, and staying in a hotel room or buying an airline ticket for which M gets a kickback.'
4. They are a target of special 'fundraising.'
5. In the old days, they might move into the ashram and donate all their money, might join AMP, and might send checks to Malibu, as well as drop cash into the buckets in the darshan lines.

Who needs to charge for K when you can do that?

.I got the feeling over the years that M genuinly believed ,as Perfect Master, he deserved and was entitled to his vast wealth and that he thought it was a privilege for a devotee to be able to support him.

I think this is true. He really does think he deserves it, and gets pissed off when he doesn't get enough. Can you imagine, even for a minute, Maharaji, lacking in funds, traveling around in a non-airconditioned car, 'spreading this knowledge?' Of course not, because that isn't his priority, his wealth is. When he gets a little short on cash, what does he do? He cancels programs, cancels tours and retires to one of his opulent mansions. That's what he does. Does he sacrifice to do his father's work? Of course not. That isn't his priority, and never has been. Actions speak a lot louder than words, as they say.

Look. Maharaji has been a miserable failure in spreading knowledge, especially in the West, despite getting millions, and millions and millions of dollars from his devotees over the years. Why? Because the vast majority of those millions went to his lifestyle and not to propogation. He has been a failure at spreading knowledge, but he appears to have been a raving success when it comes to accumulating wealth for himself. And I agree. His ego is so gigantic that the thinks he deserves everything he gets and that he actually deserves more.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 00:15:20 (EST)
From: chr
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: finances
Message:
Thanks JW.I said that I did respect M for not charging for K,not that I do. I saw a lot of disturbing things related to M and his wealth.I also saw Merino and Michael Dettmers with their pockets over flowing with cash,which also disturbed me.The plane,which you saw also,was another factor and if his current plane is worth $25 mil.,as seems to be the case,then that is nothing short of obscene.I guess what I'm trying to ascertain is whether M has deliberately chosen not to charge for K purely for reasons of self gain. I have said before that to me M was an enigma. A fraud is someone who deliberately sets out to mislead others.I'm not so sure that M fits into this category-he seems more delusional to me,which is even more dangerous because it allows everything to be rationalised.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 13:00:17 (EST)
From: x
Email: None
To: chr
Subject: finances
Message:
I think that JW is entirely right when he says that the only reason k is free is because it's a come on.
Claiming that knowledge is free makes it more attractive to new fish at the outset.
By the time the real costs, both financial and emotional, become evident, you've already been programmed to accept and embrace nearly any abuse.
If he charged for K right at the start, he would drive away a lot of potential donaters. Better to claim K is free and incur the charges later, kind of like those record clubs that promote free CD's but manage to charge you later.
Now that I think about it, that's the oldest one in the book, deceptively calling something free. It makes sense, since most people are bargain hunters. I've definitely heard more than one person say that they were originally attracted to MJ because K was free.
If knowledge is free, why is Maharaji so rich?
By the way. chr, I'd love to hear more about the disturbing thigs you saw regarding M and his obscene wealth. 'Dettmers and Merinos overflowing pockets full of cash'? Sounds like MJ isn't the only one who profits from the sincere donations of premies. Maybe premies don't care if their money is used on fueling M's lifestyle instead of propagation, but would they really want the honcho's to be in on it to such a large degree?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 13:03:17 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: chr
Subject: finances
Message:
chr,

I agree with you that M's motivations are probably a lot more complicated than 'fraud v. deluded megalomaniac.' Actually, I think he goes back and forth between the two. It's especially easy to be delusional when you surround yourself with people who support your delusion and when you appear at programs at which people react approvingly no matter what drivel you utter.

Most normal people would be told they were full of shit by their family and friends a long time before they developed the kind of ego Maharaji has. I guess Maharaji's family did do that at some point, but they were also pretty deluded and by that point, Maharaji had become a Western jet-setter, and had developed a new crop of sycophants so he didn't need their approval. So, in one sense, he is probably as much a captive of his trip as his devotees are. I think that's partly why it's so important for his ex-devotees to point out that the emperor has no clothes. It's as helpful to him as it is to his followers, although, frankly, I couldn't care less about Maharaji working through his delusions. I care more about the premies and other innocent people who get trapped in his cult.

Regarding not charging for knowledge, I know that was a big point with his father, and I think he just carried on that tradition as a teenage perfect master. That's something that he really couldn't change without looking even more like an obvious charlatan than he already does. But as long as the money is coming in from elsewhere he doesn't need to do that.

Oh yes, the cash. Lots of cash. Always cash. I remember Randy Prouty telling me how when he traveled with Maharaji, he carried lots of cash to smooth over any potential problems with anyone who might ask questions.

It was just amazing how much money was spent around Maharaji and about how he had no conception whatsoever where it came from. He also was really out of touch, and likely still is, with the way normal people actually live and how premies might have to sacrifice to support him. When he gave satsang, it appeared to me that he thought the world was like a television sitcom. I think he got really screwed up ideas about people from watching too much TV and thinking that was what the world was really like.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 16:45:58 (EST)
From: chr
Email: None
To: JW & x
Subject: finances
Message:
I never really knew what all the cash that some of these guys had was for,but they always seemed to have copious amounts,especially to a poor ashram premie like me who never had any cash .I think the things that disturbed me were common knowledge incidents that we all pushed under the carpet. Initially it was the cars and houses-although I never really realised how many expensive vehicles M had until I went to the residence. In 1974 he came to my home community and completely cleaned out the coffers-he just loved spending.The 707 was luxurious to the extreme.At one stage I had to show a couple of customs guys in.When they came out ,one said to the other,' Did you piss in the gold toilet?'He then asked me why the guru needed a gold plated toilet.There was a point where I really got sick of having to justify Ms lifestyle.We rationalised it to ourselves and often lied to others.
By the way ,some of these guys around M,such as Merino were nice guys.They often took a lot of shit and the money could well have been to spend on M-they certainly had no time to spend on themselves.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 17:23:14 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: chr
Subject: finances
Message:
I love this story about the customs agents:

' Did you piss in the gold toilet?'He then asked me why the guru needed a gold plated toilet.

I know when I saw the interior of the 707 I was amazed at how opulent it was. I had worked at DECA, and knew it would be nice, but the gold toilet kind of sums it up better than any other example could. I also recall that he had gold plumbing fixtures even in his motorhome.

I don't know about what the cash was for, but I'll bet it was mainly to take care of things M wanted. However, as a poor ashram premie myself, I did sometimes get shocked when I saw how PAMs lived. They always had very expensive clothes (did you ever see Randy Prouty's wardrobe?), drove nice cars, etc.

I also rationalized how M lived, but mostly I just ignored it, figuring I was just a devotee and didn't understand M's divine plan. Also, many premies still console themselves that the perfect master is always criticized and misunderstood in his lifetime. I mean, look at Jesus Christ, right? Also, sometimes we said that Maharaji was trying to blow our concepts. Yeah, right. He had a gold toilet just for OUR benefit, to help advance our spiritual realization. God, it really is amazing how you can rationalize things that now sound so stupid.

I was also really confronted by the waste of money around M, in addition to the extravagance. I guess because no one had to earn the money, they just figured there was more somewhere, and it was all M's 'grace' anyway.

Actually, what I feel most guilty about these days, is that as a DLM honcho, I got up in front of hundreds of premies and browbeat them into donating money, especially for the plane, which we were told to lie about and call a 'world tour.' And I know there were premies who couldn't really afford it, who gave it anyway. But I just figured there was 'grace.' I recall one premie in particular, who had trouble feeding her two kids. She was basically a Miami street premie. There were LOTS of premies in Miami like that, many with serious mental problems. Anyhow, I used to get her food from the small premie restaurant we had in the satsang hall basement. But she donated money for the plane nonetheless.

I recall one time, though, towards the end of my involvement, in about 1982, there were more and more fundraisings for some plane, residence, or some other stupid thing M wanted, and I was ashram housefather. I just couldn't do it. This is after I had been in Miami for a couple of years and seen all the waste and opulent nonsense. So, I told the community coordinator that we didn't have any money to donate, and, instead, I went out and bought all the ashram brothers new clothes. It was my first real act of defiance. It was a small step, but it felt great. About the same time I told David Smith he was sadistic and mentally ill, and needed psychiatric help. That felt great too.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 17:40:00 (EST)
From: chr
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: finances
Message:
When we were told the ashrams were closing it was quite confusing-was it a test to see who the true ashram premies really were? Padarthanand had put it to us in those terms but when we checked further it seemed M was really saying that he no longer wanted ashrams.We stayed together for a while and then decided to go our separate ways .We started to divide up the the furniture and the the cars etc,when one of the EV people came to tell us that padarthanand was very disturbed because the furniture and other things had been bought by the ashram out of devotion to M and they should be returned to EV.I asked her whether my credit card debt belonged to EV too.When she said no,we told her to fuck off and we took it all anyway.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 18:11:45 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: chr
Subject: finances
Message:
Dear Chr,
Great! Did you stay in the cult after leaving the ashram? You've probably talked about that and I am sorry that I missed it. That was kind of the same reaction I had when 3 people from the premie house I lived in (NJ) followed me to the premie farm I moved to (PA) to fetch me back. I asked them what was wrong with them to take the 4.5 hour drive to take me back without even talking to me which would have saved them the trip.
Love,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 18:34:45 (EST)
From: chr
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: finances
Message:
Hi Robyn,I hung in for about 4 years.By that time I was married.My wife had received K in 82 but never bought the whole M trip.She had an experience the year before receiving K that had lasted several months and was hoping that K would reconnect her with it.She was nearly not given it because she refused to swear undying devotion to M.The K didnt make the grade for her.I gave her a hard time,telling her it was because she hadnt learned how to love M. Cringe-she still reminds me of that sometimes.She was instrumental in helping me see it all for what it really was.She said to me ,the other day ,that those of us who lived in ashrams and dedicated ourselves to this little fat guy,must have have had a poor sense of ourselves.I think there's some truth to this but there were a whole lot of other factors too,for me,anyway.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 18:40:24 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: chr
Subject: finances
Message:
Dear Chr,
Thank god for your wife! :)
Love,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 18:48:51 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Thank god for my wife!
Message:
Robyn: I say this all of the time.... he he he. :-)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 18:35:22 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: chr
Subject: finances
Message:
That's a great story. I was fortunate in the sense that I left the San Francisco ashram in March, 1983. The ashram closed about 3 or 4 months later, so I didn't have to be involved in whatever happened, but I also never got any of the explanations about why they were closing. I had been the housefather and I know hhe ashram didn't have a debt. I had worked really hard to preven that. I DID take my bed and a couple of people told me it was wrong, but I just ignored them. I think I went to satsang exactly one time after that. Fortunately, it was a meeting headed up by that arrogant asshole from Atlanta, who was in charge of M's businesses. I can't recall his name. It was all about asking for more money. I think that was the last time.

It was very 'all or nothing' for me. I left the ashram and the cult at the same time. When I realized Maharaji wasn't who he said he was, it was all over. I wouldn't have left the ashram if I had still believed M was who he claimed to be.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 20:20:32 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: chr
Subject: HA!
Message:
Good for you, chr!!!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 18:49:34 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: You know what gets me?
Message:
JW: I didn't know that there was a gold toilet in his airplane! JEEZ, doesn't anyone realize how much extra fuel is burned just because of that item? His plane spews tons of pollutants into the air everytime he flies.... NOW, he spews even more just for a damned gold toilet??????? I just can't stand it!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 18:57:35 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: You know what gets me?
Message:
Mike, he got rid of that plane soon after it was completed. Even when it was under construction, he knew that it would need new engines (the ones on it, as of 1984 or 1985 would no longer meet noice regulations). This is another reason the 707 project, and the millions spent on it, was such a stupid boondoggle.

But the 707 was completely impractical anyway. It was huge, guzzled gas, and he wanted something he could learn to fly himself. He didn't seem to care about the hundreds of premies who worked on the plane.

But I think you raise an excellent point. It is environmentally irresponsible to fly around a jet for ONE person, just because he thinks he's god and should have to subject his divine big ass to flying first class on commercial airliners.

And the toilet was gold. I saw it with my own eyes. If I recall correctly, all the bathroom fixtures were gold plated. Also, the shower was computerized to select automatically water to the Lord's personal desire. Ever since he was a kid M loved gadgets, so LOTS of gadgets were put into all his stuff.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 10:22:26 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: I know that I've harped
Message:
JW: On the airplane alot, but it is a really big issue with me. The thought that this ONE GUY rides around in an airplane that is belching, literally, TONS of pollutants per flight is the very antithesis of the arguement that 'god made us stewards' of the earth. Whether one is a religious person or an athiest matters not in this arguement. If religious, the statement above applies. If one is an athiest, then they KNOW that THIS is it... all there is... and we better take care of it or OUR species will become the next on the endagered list!

There is a 'balance' and M has NO IDEA what it is! If he did, he would INSIST on doing the balanced thing!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 22:44:40 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: But Mike, that's the point!
Message:
To serve your Lord and Master, selflessly, without attachment, without concept of good, bad, economical, ecological...god man, go beyond all that! You are divine! You are a divine spark of eternity, and you're worried about a few extra unwanted atomic particles of whatever floating in the great wherever? Let your mind go, bro, drop those concepts of right and wrong, good and evil, pure and pollutant. The creator takes care of his creatures, don't worry be happy in the connection within inside to the endless source of energy that moves the atom pure and impure, who cares!? Merge baby, merge with the divine surge!

No, but seriously, remember that the Master is supposed to give the devotee meaningless tasks. Now if I could only remember why? Why did I think it was 'spiritual' to do meaningless tasks?
Like it's spiritual to be really really stupid!? Oh yeah, so I could lose my ego. So then you come to the question, why did I think it was so important to lose my ego? What the hell is wrong with ego anyway? The whole guru trip is so STUPID!!!
AHHHHHHHRRRRRRRRRHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 20:23:36 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: finances
Message:
Go, JW!! These are great stories
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 10, 1999 at 09:45:19 (EST)
From: Seymour
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Heretic Journey & David M
Message:
Greetings to all,
Been away lately and am just paying a flying visit. I've just read the Happy Heretic's Journey. A well written account full of pertinence and wisdom. I like one of the conclusions that the journey has led to....
I don't believe in satgurus, bodhisattvas, or perfect masters anymore. Nobody is perfect. My life is far too important to me to entrust in anybody else's hands. I know there are yogis (and others) who live in states of ecstasy. But that does not necessarily make them more intelligent, all-knowing, nor even saints. In, fact, they may be very ignorant and prejudiced, still very lovable an charismatic.
I am just about to dive into AJW's journey which looks like a good read - particularly as I remember him being one of the more uplifting speakers in the old satsang days.
David M
It was terribly sad to read about David m's daughter. Sometimes life can be more cruel and painful than we can imagine - perhaps that's why so many turn to religion for comfort. It is also why it is so despicable that religious leaders use this fear of pain/ of losing our loved ones/ of death... to recruit others and sustain their own lifestyles.
Whether or not there is a god ( and if so he must be either a powerless observer or a real sadist to let so many cruel things happen to his creatures ) we do have each other as fellow human beings, and I was touched to see the heartfelt messages for David - to which I would like to add my own good wishes and, if you are reading this David, I hope that you can find the strength from somewhere to see you through what must be the most difficult of times.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 09:19:28 (EST)
From: Happy Heretic
Email: None
To: Seymour
Subject: Heretic Journey
Message:
I just want to thank you - and all the others - for your comments
on my journey. As you all know, it's not necessarily an easy thing to decide to submit your journey. I just felt I had to do it, for myself, as a kind of therapy or something, to process the whole thing. What amazed me was that I felt so strongly about it, although I actually left M years ago. So thanks to you all for your kind and encouraging comments. Maybe I'll join in the discussions every now and then in the future.

HH
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 10, 1999 at 05:23:25 (EST)
From: AE
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Pictures & quotes needed
Message:
You'll be pleased to know that Maharaji's Homepage now has a link to this forum and is also showing up well on the search engines.

However, I need some more pictures of the Lord to put on the site so please leave a message and email address here and I'll get in touch.

I'll be doing a page of the Lord's best quotes and sayings soon so if you'd like to remind me of some here, that would be appreciated. You know the sort of thing I mean, some of the I am God quotes and other outlandish things he's said. Thanks.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 10, 1999 at 08:38:31 (EST)
From: bill...*>*...
Email: None
To: AE
Subject: any artists here?--RT?
Message:
Since there are reports of prem rawat's spying
tendencies starting at least with the hidden microphone
taping system in england, and continueing in other ways
including the bathroom slats for peeking in miami,
certainly he can't help himself from peeking here.

Can anyone here draw a picture of the lord in full mala and
crown sitting at a computer typing madly in response to Jim?
Sort of a side shot with maybe a talk bubble.

Maybe a full cartoon like the sunday funnies or, a one shot
where we all take turns posting what comment should go into the
bubbles.

One on his yacht, looking through the bathroom slots,
sitting on the throne while we sing arti with a talk bubble
where we could guess what is going on in his -mind-.

Any of you artists out there?
RT?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 10, 1999 at 12:26:49 (EST)
From: x
Email: None
To: bill...*>*..., RT and gmj
Subject: any artists here?--RT?
Message:
I think that's a pretty good idea, RT. We could make it a contest where we all vote on which one we think is funniest. Or maybe thats too competitive, I don't know. Let's have a whole page devoted to comics and satire, this cult is so laughable it certainly deserves something like that.
I have to admit that some of the best laughs I've ever had came while reading this forum. Jim's bogus satsangs for example . Also the real life stories of lust and repression from the old ashram days always make me crack a smile. Then there was that great prank of Katie's where she was approached by gmj in a limo, that was truly inspired.
As far as gmj reading this, of course he does. Wouldn't you, if you were him? What else does he have to do?
He's always complaining about how hard he works trying to save the earth through 'spreading knowledge', but I have a feeling he has plenty of spare time on his hands. Also he is always babbling about computers and hi-tech gadgets, etc. I'm sure whatever is considered the best computer in the world, is the one he has. Of course he would never admit that he comes here. Its like Maddona secretly scouring the tabloids for stories on herself, while at the same time condemning them for harassing her.
I know there has been discussion here about whether or not gmj reads some of this stuff. I'm of the opinion that he does, so in case you are reading this gmj, I just want you to know that I don't think you are a very enlightened being, at all, judging by your actions and what you have to say. You have sold out, treasuring material wealth over honesty or sincerity. I think that secretly you loathe and are disgusted by your followers, Who wouldn't be? You are cynical, jaded and sad. You couldn't help being born into this mess, but you could at least try to make up for some of the harm you've caused, by finally telling the truth about yourself. It's called redemption, try it you might like it.
Late is better than never.
Rich on the outside, poor on the inside.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 10, 1999 at 17:38:20 (EST)
From: RT
Email: ommm
To: all
Subject: cartoon art of the Lard: Eh.
Message:
I worry the WPC/EV will trace the art to me and slash my retirement, break my windows 98, and put pieces of the world in my path to trip on.

Editorial cartoons of Maha-rob-me, that is a neat idea.
Now you got me thinking. uh-oh.

RT

maybe someday.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 10, 1999 at 20:02:38 (EST)
From: AE
Email: thorninhisside@hotmail.com
To: Anyone
Subject: Here's my email address
Message:
If anyone wants to email me re any pictures or quotes I can use on Maharaji's homepage then you have my email address on the email heading of this post.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 09, 1999 at 20:39:20 (EST)
From: The red Knight
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Dreaming of OP
Message:
Sitting on my back porch ,
staring at the cold and twisted trees of winter ,
I close my eyes and imagine the foreign shore around us ,
the salt burns my lungs,as the humidity bathes my skin,refreshing,cleansing me of my lonliness .
My hand falls down into the sand , burying itself beneath the harsh glass particals .
Waves sing to my ears ,alluring me into a hypnosis that I am still alone,with their silent ,siron ,songs.
Then your hand slides down my arm ,uncovering mine .
Your fingers gently comb away the abrasive dust ,easing my pain .
Slowly ,knowingly they brush across my palm
and intertwine themselves around mine ,reminding me with their warm embrase,that you are still there.
Our hands connect our hearts ,and our hearts
become our hands.....a cold gust rips accross the back of my house,jerking me back accross the oceans ,seperating us again.
I let my eyes close again and head fall back,
smiling as I hold your warm heart with mine.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 10, 1999 at 03:32:18 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com
To: The red Knight
Subject: Dreaming of OP
Message:
You've got it bad, pal. That's nice writing though. I thought Willie was the one romancing the girls here. He's got some serious competition now.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 09, 1999 at 01:15:04 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Public Confession
Message:
Anonymity has its negatives, and when people like Jim or Nigel openly contact the EL website or otherwise brazenly offer their addresses up to the public, sometimes I am jealous. At least, I am grateful. Someone has to man the front lines, registering addresses through internic.com, etc.

That's not my confession- my post is about confessing. As premies we had a powerful tool in confessing publicly to our past 'sins'. M's proclaimed messianic mission convinced me, but in practice the confessions of numerous individuals, with the self-degrading tales of their lives also one me over.

I used the same tools myself in giving satsang and was corroborated in a righteous belief in this process by the backdrop of beatnik and 60's literature. Reading and hearing about peoples sexual exploits, heroin addiction and their involvement in desperate struggles was par for the course in satsang.

When Mel Bourne, one of our premie visitors, was defending himself one time, he started saying how he had done all kinds of work for aboriginal rights. There was no way we could determine the truth or lack thereof (or varying shades of grey) involved. There was no intelligent approach to discussion.

We exes do this also... It's nice to hear about our struggles sometimes but there is no quick fix to confess and get the stinky Miragey sweat off of our bodies after he's had us.

I dont mean to discourage people from relating personal events. And the most important posts to me are the exposes about DECA, AMTEXT, etc which involve real information about ourselves.

Does anyone see my point? Alot of BS goes down as honesty, or is swept under an 'honesty' rug.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 09, 1999 at 09:12:29 (EST)
From: KK
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Public Confession
Message:
I agree, Runamok and think that this is a subtle level of dialogue to introduce to the Forum. It is always hard to challenge another person's democratically upheld acclaimed virtue.
Even when we think it lacks veracity. Feelings are impossible to objectively verify. When facts and feelings mingle by virtue of feelings being given a factual status, as occurred in satsang, the outcome is untenable. 'What do you mean he is the Lord of the Universe?' 'Well, I know he is the Lord of the Universe (immutable fact).' On what basis? Based on feelings/facts. What feelings and what facts become irrelevant because people are in a room accepting the script of before and after, etc.

This must also apply to ex-premies. One of the reasons I spoke to NO ONE for so many years was because I was dealing with my bullshit shadow which had been grafted during the premie years onto my earlier 'life' as a conditioned person (I was only 15 years old when I received K but I had a clear picture of my own/my family's mythology).

Just to add a collateral thought: ex-premies don't need to be perfectly clear or noble. Being where you're at is important. I wanted to make a lot of money when I left the inner circle. I was tired of austerity. I became a capitalist. Ask me about spirituality then, I just thought 'You poor sucker....'. Now I live differently again. It's all part of my own process but I loath the standardised before and after notions about our lives because they imply a period of enlightenment/non-enlightenment. I see things in a more relative light.

Thanks for your thoughts.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 09, 1999 at 17:02:04 (EST)
From: chr
Email: None
To: KK
Subject: Public Confession
Message:
I agree KK.I think just being where you're at is important.When I made the conscious decision to leave M, I totally avoided premies.Initially there was an incredible feeling of freedom but over time came the recognition that I'd been thoroughly programmed and that I'd lost myself- that who I really was as an identity had been damaged.Discussion on this forum has helped me sort out what I feel/ think about it all-a kind of group therapy I guess.
By the way,I think I know you. If you are who I suspect,then we were friendly in the early days.We both went through a process of seeing too much-you with the upper echelons of the organisation,me with an involvement in security around M,on his planes, residences ,backstage,program organisation etc.I am not ready to not be anonymous,but I would like to catch up.If,like me you dont wish to leave your email on the forum,we may be able to swap names and email via Brian or Jim or others.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 11:46:39 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: KK
Subject: Just wondering...
Message:
What this means: (I was only 15 years old when I received K but I had a clear picture of my own/my family's mythology).

KK,
So, you had a clear ''picture'' of your own ''mythology?''

Excuse me,,, but HUH?!?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 09, 1999 at 09:17:26 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Public Confession
Message:
What is real information vs. information that is tinged by a desire to get power, be respected, be liked, etc. There are many layers to conversation, there's always some agenda/artifice involved..even if it's benign.
The artifice that bothers me most here is when
folks are rigidly holding to their 'I'm so happy' positions. This seems so phoney, I mean who the hell is happy all the time, jeez.
COnfession--I see what you are saying, you prefer facts to the confessional style here...hmmm. See, I like the confessional stuff because I like the exploration of why people get into cults, the psychological stuff that leads up to that and then the sorting out stage after they leave. All that stuff is important too I think, especially if this is a tool to help people take steps away from the cult.

I always have to think real hard when you post these kinda philosophical posts. Ouch, my brain hurts.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 09, 1999 at 10:04:02 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Public Confession
Message:
I wouldnt call it a preference Helen. Anecdotal horror tales of the guru/disciple relationship belong in my heart. Likewise I would NOT want to stop most people from being revealing about their lives. Things could get pretty dry around here if we all were extremely self-conscious about maintaining our anonymity.

But, a revealing story about oneself is generally not equivalent to a compelling and logical argument in favor of an opinion or postulate. And alot of us really don't want to get in target range (use our real names) of M for obvious reasons.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 09, 1999 at 11:17:02 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Public Confession
Message:
There's two topics mixed in here--the topic of logical argument vs. personal self-disclosure and the topic of anonymity. I'm not sure how they are inter-related. Are you saying that you are reluctant to wear your heart on your sleeve here and use your real name becasue you are afraid for your personal safety? The separate issue seems to be around logical discussion vs/confessing subjective feelings.

Do you think that it's foolish for those of us who use our real names to pour out our hearts here? I seriously wonder about my own sanity in posting under my real name (because of safety issues). Then again, I am not ashamed to say the things I have to say.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 09, 1999 at 14:14:37 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Public Confession
Message:
Dear Runamok -
I'm trying to understand your argument here. You wrote:
But, a revealing story about oneself is generally not equivalent to a compelling and logical argument in favor of an opinion or postulate.

I don't understand what you mean by 'not equivalent' - do you mean less effective? If you do, then I disagree with this. The posts that reach me most on the forum are those in which people relate their feelings and tell their own stories. I'm not saying that this is true for everyone - I know that the logical arguments probably mean a lot more to others. IMHO, it's a matter of different styles of communication.

Also, I think that you can't argue logically with someone's subjective experience (unless of course, the person tries to make generalizations about it, or if they are talking about an idea.) The way to discuss someone's subjective experience is (IMHO) to reveal one's own subjective experience. Again, I am not talking about ideas here - I'm talking about something the person actually experienced. I think there is a lot of confusion between ideas and experience on the forum sometimes.

Again, I'm not really sure if I understood what you were getting at, but just wanted to say the above (even though it might be off target!)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 09, 1999 at 16:11:38 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Public Confession
Message:
Right, there is a confusion between the two. When people are supposedly arguing a point they'll chime in about their good deeds. And yes Helen, I brought in the second point because anonymity is an issue.

Katie, I agree things would be boring if everyone was anonymous here.

It's something to consider if you haven't published your name. Do you really want all the premies to have that info especially if you are new to being an exe? We don't owe M our name.

My name and address would go public for a lawsuit against M. Until then I don't really know.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 09, 1999 at 17:17:05 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Public Confession
Message:
They chime in about their good deed perhaps to establish their credibility or is it to show that they are not just mindless spineless amoral jellyfish or perhaps it is to feel morally superior. What do you think it is?

I have been not involved with Maharaji for such a long time. Perhaps that is why I feel okay using my name. I can understand why recent ex-es would not feel comfortable using real names or premies who are still involved with the premie community or ex-es married to premies. What is a little jarring for me is to remind myself that what I perceive as an established community group is really not because this forum is totally open to the public and people prowl around on here who do not necessarily post. That does affect my comfort level. I often assume that I know who my audience is (the usual cast of characters here with whom I have established rapport) but the audience is made up of others who I do not know.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 09, 1999 at 20:21:56 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Public Confession
Message:
But, a revealing story about oneself is generally not equivalent to a compelling and logical argument in favor of an opinion or postulate.

I disagree with this statement, if it means they aren't equally valuable. In fact, I think personal experiences are at least as 'compelling' when it comes to conveying information and, frankly, I find them much more helpful.

And alot of us really don't want to get in target range (use our real names) of M for obvious reasons.

I agree that remaining anonymous, or not, is a personal choice. I have chosen not to remain anonymous, pretty much, because I feel I have nothing to lose and for me it was another big step towards freedom. But I keep asking people what they are really afraid of. And I would love to hear why you feel the way you do. What are the 'obvious' reasons?

It might be that recent exes, like you, have premie friends, and other connections to premiedom that I haven't had for years, and fear repurcussions there, but one of the things I discovered over those years was that one of the most programmed elements of being a premie was FEAR. I know I had to look at that very closely, and I came to the conclusion it really was just programming and I had no real evidence on which to base a fear of some kind of reprisal for M or his minions.

Run, have you, or has anyone, ever heard of an ex-premie, no matter how much he or she publicly expressed his or her hatred towards Maharaji and his cult, getting anything more serious than the cold shoulder, and maybe being the butt of some vicious gossip? Thousands and thousands of people have left M over the years, and some of them have been pretty high up in the organization, and frankly, I have never heard of anyone getting reprisals. On what is your fear based?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 09, 1999 at 20:44:03 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Public Confession
Message:
As premies we had a powerful tool in confessing publicly to our past 'sins'.

Do you mean nightly satsang? Yes, we could confess, but if you looked closely, only certain, acceptable 'sins' could be confessed in nightly satsang. We could talk about how confused and messed up we were before we received knowledge, and we could talk about what miserable devotees we are and how we need Maharaji's grace to carry us along. That was about it.

Other 'sins' were not acceptable to confess. Like conveying the logical argument your brain developed about how Maharaji was a fraud, about how much you hated meditation, about how absolutlely revolting and ridiculous you thought Maharaji looked dancing half naked on the stage, about how greedy Maharaji was and how he obviously was more into his lifestyle than into spreading knowledge. I, and I know many other premies, thought this, but certainly couldn't specifically 'confess' this in satsang. If you did, you were relegated to being a 'bongo' premie and would never be asked to give satsang again.

Does anyone see my point? Alot of BS goes down as honesty, or is swept under an 'honesty' rug.

I'm trying to see your point, but I guess I don't. There isn't any way to determine if someone is telling the truth, that's true, but that's also true in all parts of life. You have to make a judgment about that, and that's part of the soup in which this whole discussion takes place. I guess I'm optomistic and I think most people, even premies, are basically truthful. The problem for premies is that their 'truth' is limited to the way we were all programmed, but the discussion here is very helpful to unravel that. And, yes, deprogramming yourself from cult-thinking doesn't happen overnight, but I think it really can and does happen very quickly, once your focus your attention on it. At least that was my experience.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 09, 1999 at 21:20:43 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Public Confession
Message:
All right, I guess I'm stupid. I just don't get what there is to lose by revealing one's identity. I mean, isn't the worst case scenario that someone will know what you really and truly believe, feel, think? What could the harm be in that?
Tell me please. What will you lose by letting the world know that YOU, John or Jane Doe, don't worship the guru anymore? First of all, nobody cares except for perhaps your premie friends, and aren't they the ones who deserve to know more than anyone?

Be as forthcoming with your realizations now as you were when you were a premie!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 09, 1999 at 22:24:41 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Truth or Consequences
Message:
Gail, certainly was adversely affected directly by her public announcement and her exit interviews with premies in her community. She was barred entrance to the Satellite Broadcast. Admittedly, I might want to go to a local Maharaji event just to see how it feels to confirm or negate my decision to leave and for intellignece purposes.

And, finally, the freaked out part in my says 'don't burn the bridge' in the event that I want to go back. And, I know that you are all laughing at me now, but sometimes I really hear what PT says. Nah, actually, I at times had very powerful experiences around BM.

Was he the cause or did the entire envelope created by him and premies create it? At this point in time, I suspect it is a powerful Alpha state created by the careful crafting of the venue and the group expectations.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 10, 1999 at 01:47:35 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: Truth or Consequences
Message:
Hey Barney - you wrote:
I at times had very powerful experiences around BM.
Was he the cause or did the entire envelope created by him and premies create it? At this point in time, I suspect it is a powerful Alpha state created by the careful crafting of the venue and the group expectations.


I suspect you're right, because I had VERY powerful 'darshan' type experiences at Grateful Dead & Jerry Garcia Band concerts. These experiences were much more intense than anything I experienced with Maharaji or with the knowledge meditation. I have hesitated to talk about these experiences on the forum because I thought that people would assume that I was using some kind of drugs - well, I wasn't. (From age 14-16, I used a lot of drugs of various kinds - then I received knowledge and didn't do any drugs for five years. After that I couldn't tolerate them at all - maybe because of all that early exposure - they made me sick. I tried taking a toke at a couple of Dead concerts and then found I couldn't enjoy the concert at all after that, so I quit.) Anyway, these experiences were part of what convinced me that Maharaji didn't have a patent on anything special.

As far as anonymity goes - I think people should do what they're comfortable with. I have no problems revealing my name, but I don't have any premie friends or relatives. I can understand the conflict for those who do.

You also wrote:
And, finally, the freaked out part in my says 'don't burn the bridge' in the event that I want to go back.

I guess I can understand this, although it's been a long time since I've felt like that. I think you should take your time. But honestly, I don't think people CAN really go back, unless they have more capacity for denial than I've seen yet in any ex-premie who has posted on this site. It's sort of like that Neil Young song:

Once you're gone, you can't come back,
You're out of the blue and into the black.


I really like that song - I see the blue as illusion and the black as truth (he probably didn't mean it that way, but so what?).

Take care, Barney -
Love,
Katie
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 10, 1999 at 04:08:17 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Katie and all
Subject: Truth or Consequences
Message:
Let's see. The anonymity thing is less important but related. The general idea I am presenting is of using a public confession as a cultist come-on. 'I have so little, but my sad but true, uplifting tale of redemption' and part of why I'm talking about it is that we see this on here from premies. Sometimes we kinda go toward it ourselves as exes.

I'd say it took me ten years of leaving the cult before it ever occured to me that my life wasnt anyone's biz but my own. It's not a question of being out recently- I've been out since 81.

It's a touchy feely kinda thing and it has roots in other places. Allen Ginsberg's poetry is full of his sex life as were other hip 60's culture figure's writings. And premies do use it freely as a principle. We would discuss our doubts amongst ourselves (I remember some post fairly recently about Joan Apter going on about her doubts after years of being a head honcho) and turning it into this kind of breast beating revivalist 'I will get better too' scenario. It really makes me sick to think about it.

This and being dogmatic are the hardest things to get rid of for me after leaving, because I should have developed some other communicative skills (other than cultist entrapment)and philosophical attitudes (other than a fanatical belief system) in that decade of being involved with the cult.

The safety/anonymity issue is separate, as pointed out. The premie scene I knew was extremely abusive, but mostly in a psychological way. It's a reasonable jump to want to be anonymous, but I am grateful that some people take on the task of being public.

The presence of the website is the single largest safety factor, making us aware of each other as a group and putting us in touch with each other individually. To be honest, I only trust M as far as I can throw him.. The accounts on the internet forum tell the story of violent acts being covered up and denied routinely, even if they were not ordered. A cult is a cult by definition of the fanaticism of its members. They are routinely encouraged toward a dishonesty in their day-to-day outreach. Why should I assume it cant go farther?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 10, 1999 at 08:15:36 (EST)
From: bill burke
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Truth or Consequences
Message:
certainly it can go farther.
There were years where if this web site had been up then..
we would have been attacked long ago.
Mili is someone who was posting regularly and if he was in england
or america instead of croatia, we would have had -in person-
assaults from him.
Marty mac gregor wrote to the web site and said 'If i ever
hear one of you guys talking about rawat near me I'll kick your
head out your fanny' or something like that.
He lives near me but he actually is not a worry.
It is one thing to be on the mailing list of elan vital
but there is no good reason to put our addresses on the forum
for the unknown reader to have.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 15:25:36 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: bill burke
Subject: Truth or Consequences
Message:
Bill,

I guess I have a different view of Mili than you do. I doubt very much if he is a violent person. He's just outspoken and kind of stubborn.

Who is Marty MacGregor? I agree that you shouldn't give out your address, but mostly to avoid getting junk mail, or perhaps some cowardly vandalism.

Joe
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 01:25:18 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Truth or Consequences
Message:
He was the guy that John Cavad's journey --he responded to that.
And brian posted it on the forum.
He lives in hartford area and works for an insurance company.
He used to try to get to aome experience by going to the
basement while the other ashram members were making food or
doing chores and he kept trying to get somewhere inside.
rawat had upped the impossible ante and marty was desperate
to 'get the experience guru maharaj ji wants to give you'

He suffered long andhard in the hartford hell hole ashram.
stil stuck in the trap.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 16:13:42 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: bill burke
Subject: Truth or Consequences
Message:
I must disagree with you regarding Mili, I don't think that he is violent at all. He is tenacious, and he is willing to attack verbally (as will many of us here) but I don't think that he would physically attack anyone.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 19:30:43 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: bill burke
Subject: Truth or Consequences
Message:
Hi Bill -
Well, JW and Michael already said this, but I'll just add my endorsement. I have corresponded with Mili quite a bit, and I think he is a genuinely kind person who would never stoop to physical attacks (although he seems to like to argue!) I would have no problem meeting him in person.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 21:47:34 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Be fair but be accurate
Message:
Hey guys,

I agree that Mili's probably not prone to harm anyone. But let's not forget that he's one of the few people who's actually threatened anyone here. Mili told David Stirling that if he ever saw him outside a program he'd punch him out. Now I know Mili's word ain't worth much and that he is also prone to bluster and bullshit, but it's entirely possible that he meant it, at least when he said it.

You can say all the nice things you want about Mili. But you might want to review some of his conversations first. Someone mentions she was sexually assaulted by a mahatma. He calls her a liar. His take on all the hamster's heavy pronouncements was that they never happened. Back then (a couple of years ago), before JM, myself and others collected a bunch of these quotes, premies like Mili argued forever that we were all stupid or lying attributing any such stuff to m. Then, when shown the quotes themselves, Mili could only say anyone stupid enough to actually believe this shit got exactly what they deserved.

You think PT's callous? Yeah, in a way he's worst. But, in some respects, Mili still takes the cake.

How about the time Mili started this whole ugly rumour that I'd urged rounding up all the premies in concentration camps and murdering them? Yeah, Katie, I, too, found Mili to be 'genuinely kind person'.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 10, 1999 at 08:50:35 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Ain't noone's bid-ness
Message:
Hey Run,
I do see exactly what you are talking about when you address the issue of your own life being noone's biz but you're own. Ain't that the truth. Now I see exactly what you are talking about. The idea of boundaries, privacy etc, oh no that was being in your mind. You were supposed to spill your guts but in a prescribed way in that ol' satsang chair. You were not supposed to hold back a piece of yourself for yourself. I actually think that is why I survived the trip in tact--I held myself back a lot and was chastized for it, being told I was in my mind, too intellectual, too complicated etc. I sure spent a lot of time going for long walks by myself and reading books.
I need a lot of time alone and the premie scene was one of frantic togetherness. I can't take that!!
you are right, your life is noone's bid-ness but your own!!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 10, 1999 at 14:36:16 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Joan Apter's Doubts
Message:
I saw Joan Apter speak in '73 before Millenium (Y2K) and she said that even if Maharaji himself announced that he was a fraud and everyone left that she would still follow him.

Maybe she's changed her tune alittle since then?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 22:20:09 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: Joan Apter's Doubts
Message:
Anne told me that Joan was angry with MJ and had not been around much. This news really upset me because I liked her. The next thing I know, I see her with all the other premie VIPs handing out tissues at the end of the darshan line. I guess she stopped being angry.

Anne also said the Joe Anctil ended up being a homeless, drunken bum in the streets of Miami Beach. If this is true, that's too bad. He always reminded me of Ed Sullivan. Can't you just hear him, 'KEES ME GOUDNIITE, SANT JI.'
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 01:37:48 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Joan Apter's Doubts
Message:
Joe Anctil ended up being a homeless, drunken bum in the streets of Miami Beach. If this is true, that's too bad. He always

geez, I don't wish that lifestyle on anybody. That's pretty sad.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 04:14:31 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: Anctil
Message:
It is sad, isnt it.

I forget exactly which guy Anctil was, but I know he was one of my connections. The guy with the hooked nose and bushy moustache?

It's also kinda sick that his bigwig ashram friends would just let it happen. If it's true, think of these people, just letting someone kill themselves - same kind of thing- after they spend what 10 years working 80 hour weeks...

That's why some of us managed to leave.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 15:25:50 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Anctil
Message:
Hi Runamok:

Joe Anctil was MJ's MC for years at the Miami Beach Convention Centre. Remember him telling us to leave 15% for the maids and not to trash the rooms. I guess for some folks, it was their first time away from home, and they wanted to pretend to be rock stars.

He was a bit of a showman. He really did keep the ball rolling with little jokes, etc (just like Ed Sullivan). Actually, the programs were a lot more interesting back then (except for the long, drawn-out speeches).

He seemed poised and well-educated to me. It's hard to imagine him baking on the sidewalks of Miami like a cochroach.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 22:26:07 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Anctil
Message:
Last time I saw him was the mid 80's, he was a bellhop at the Intercontinental hotel in Miami.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 04:51:11 (EST)
From: op
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: Anctil
Message:
Joe Anctil is alive and well and living with a beautiful premie, not in Miami. He's not into M and K. He's doing quite well and is pretty happy from what I hear.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 16:40:23 (EST)
From: joe's grandmother
Email: None
To: op
Subject: Anctil
Message:
Please get your facts straight.Joe is living in a trailer van in New Mexico with Ann Johnson.They have 14 children and worship the Great White Ram.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 23:39:01 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: op
Subject: Anctil
Message:
Thanks for that. I'm glad to hear he is ok.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 16:27:50 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: hey dv!
Message:
'The guy with the hooked nose and bushy moustache?'

I don't think that sounds like Anctil. Sounds like an old ashram bro named Carl G.

Is DV listening? Whatever happened to Carl G.?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jan 14, 1999 at 22:28:33 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: John
Subject: hey dv!
Message:
I saw him at a program last year. I had heard he moved to LA after the shrams closed to get into acting. Don't know how sucessful he was.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 10, 1999 at 15:09:51 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Back to BM Drugs G. Dead
Message:
Thanks, Katie.

Gosh, that subject line is like Sex, Drugs and Rock'n Roll.

At those Dead concerts you were probably experiencing a contact high from all the dope in the air. Nah, just kidding. I also experienced a good feeling even at outdoor venues.

In the old days I would smoke pot at or before a concert and I wouldn't have a good time either. Got a little paranoid about all the strange people. And then if the music was a little too heavy I'd get that sick in the head Satanic thing where I'd think that the band was acting as an agent of the Devil. Eventually, I grew out of that phase and mellowed out a bit.

However, I don't do drugs anymore. Hell, I even stopped taking LSD. And as long as I get my heroin twice a day I'm ok.

I agree that there are powerful group experiences that have an lingering effect for days. I wonder what it would be like to go to a Monster Truck rally.

Yes, it would be a lot of denial for me to go back to Maharaji - wasn't that a song lyric? I'm probably holding out to see what happens with Y2K and Maharaji's Faze II . How about that Denver cult that got booted out of Israel? What a concept.

Certainly, the BM trip provides a fair amount of structure to one's life (videos and meditating.) I have a friend who's still on the inside who goes on alcoholic phases and then goes zealot to sober up.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 10, 1999 at 20:27:18 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: barney
Subject: Back to BM Drugs G. Dead
Message:
Dear Barney,
Do you still hold out that you may return to BM's trip. I agree with Katie that it would be hard to deny all that you have learned about or voiced here. I hope you are alright.
I am thinking you were joking about the heroin, right? If not then you were into that while into BM? How long have you been away from BM, heroin, LSD, the Grateful Dead, just kidding about all of them but BM. :)
Love,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 10, 1999 at 21:13:19 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Back to BM Drugs G. Dead
Message:
The heroin stuff was just my addiction to '60s and '70s drug humor. No, I've never done heroin.

I've done more than my fair share of LSD, but it's been quite some time. While I had a lot of fun with it and it opened my doors of perception, towards the end I noticed it made me uncomfortable because it was showing me that time for living was very, very short. Sort of similar to the good part of the Trip where everything is so, so beautiful, but you know that it will pass and will enter the wired phase. I was always quite resistant to heavy visual hallucintations, but sure did enjoy the intensification of colors and patterns in nature.

I've been to a number of Grateful Dead concerts starting in about 1968. Never found that to be too dangerous.

I really, really doubt that I'll be going back to Maharaji. The whole scene has too much BS and from what I've read about him on these pages he has lost much of his lustre in my eyes. Unlike many ex-premies here I really did have some very powerful experiences around him. However, I was not a PAM and didn't get to observe the real BM.

And as soon as I can completely divorce him from the experience of meditation I imagine that I will meditate (not practice) from time to time.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 08:49:46 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: barney
Subject: Back to BM Drugs G. Dead
Message:
Dear Barney,
Glad you were kidding about the heroin. I have done it in my distant past, no needle but thought it was to down. I have only done LSD 4 times all the same stuff made by a college professor friend of a premie friend of mine. It was amazing stuff and I have written here before about the darshan trip I had which I didn't think of as darshan at the time because he was not in person. I was not afraid of the hallucinations, I loved them! Before I ever did any acid a guy told me that ultimately YOU always have the control of the trip, wether it is good or bad. I took that to heart and had a ball! I wouldn't consider going near it now though.
Love,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 08:42:34 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: anthginn@yahoo.com
To: barney
Subject: Going back...
Message:
Barney,

If you decide to go back, having revealed your identity on this site shouldn't be a problem. In fact you'll be heralded as a prodigal son, and an example to to the faithful. They'll know for sure that the illusion, delusion and confustion over here isn't the place for them. Lapsed premies are always welcomed back with open arms (His love knows no bounds). They are proof that the world is a big horrible place and the only safe place is in a cult, with the hatches battened down, waiting for the next video telling themselves that crackling in their ears, patterns in their eyes and snot in their throat is God.

Roll on Armageddon.

Anth.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 12:13:33 (EST)
From: RT
Email: omm
To: AJW
Subject: A millennium phrase for you
Message:
just say..
Armageddon out here!

RT
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 15:31:48 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Going back to the family
Message:
Going back to the family - wasn't that a Jethro Tull song?

So, do you think if the prodigal son returns he will be rewarded with a good position within the organization. Maybe a car and some fancy clothes?

I'm always willing to sell out to advance my own interests.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 17:29:07 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: Going back to the family
Message:
Barn, Barn, Barn!! Do you really think you could go back? I'm really curious about your thought process here. You've been so honest, I'd like to hear more. What is it that still pulls you? I really am curious.

I ask this because the spell is completely broken for me...it's irreversible, like a vasectomy (now wait a minute, they can reserve those) or getting one's tubes tied. (Hmmm, I've been working on the infertility study too long) I mean, it's a conscious decision. So I think that GM must still have some little roots in you. One day on the forum I declared that I had taken an imaginary machete and had cut all the roots connecting me and GM forever. I tell you, it felt good.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 18:17:31 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: Going back to the family
Message:
When the Prodigal Son returns, an important part of the tradition is the killing of the fatted calf. I'm not sure what vegetarians do.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 18:46:02 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Going back to the family
Message:
Dear Mickey,

'When the Prodigal Son returns, an important part of the tradition is the killing of the fatted calf. I'm not sure what vegetarians do.'
I think they gather quitely around and observe sucking vs. licking animals and go all gooey because if it wasn't for BM they'd have never thought that fact held any significance! :)
Love,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 07:38:36 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: Going back to the family
Message:
Why bother with such worldly trinkets, that will tarnish in time? Your reward will be in heaven. Drink from the eternal fountain of snot and be happy forever.

Anth
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 16:29:36 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: I've read your Journey, AJW...
Message:
and how could I could back after reading that?

I loved your Journey. Drip, drip, drip.

I, too, left recently enough where I had similar experiences at the big programs. The gestapo security people, the Happy Clappers, the waterfalls - all of the crap.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 17:23:32 (EST)
From: chr
Email: Sarana@bigpond.com
To: barney
Subject: going back.
Message:
Barney I think we all had strong experiences around M at various times.What I came to realise later was that those experiences were inside of me,but triggered by the group focus and a projection onto M from the audience.Jung talks a lot about how we project our own identity and sense of self onto figures who we place above us. It gives us and them a very strong experience. A very similar thing happens with rock stars.I dont think M ever really understood this-he thought it all came from him.He really showed this lack of understanding when he stopped premies talking and just made everyone watch videos of himself.It meant that wonderful feeling that we often got in satsang was lost-the human energy was replaced by a dry, empty video.I guess at least everybody could pretend how profound it all was and how M just said exactly what they needed to hear.As far asthe anonymity thing is concerned, I very much doubt there would be any reprisals and as AJW says ,they all love premies who return.It gives them something to talk about,too.I heard all sorts of things about myself when I left.Then when I turned up to a program of Ms a few years back they all said that they knew that the rumours werent true and that I couldnt have left....I choose to be anonymous out of embarrassment-I dont want it plastered over the internet that I belonged to a cult.A friend of mine has told many of her friends that she used to be in a cult.It took her 15 years before she was willing to say anything .I guess I'll get over my embarrassment sooner or later.I'm happy to leave my email address ,however ,if anybody wants to contact me.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 00:15:29 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: There ain't no family to go
Message:
back to. MJ basically destroyed the community trip about 8 years ago. No passing info on the grapevine. Everyone should call the info line, etc.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 00:10:38 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Going back...
Message:
Hey Anth, you forgot to mention the happy new breath. BTW, when I read your journey entry, I started to complain. How come this guy could have been so involved for so long and not be totally ticked off by the fraud. How can you be so benevolent toward MJ? I seem to be getting more angry at the whole thing by the day.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 00:46:00 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Really, imagine it - JW
Message:
Can you imagine what would really happen if a bunch of us prostrated at his holy lotus feet again? Really, talk about people getting a little skittish, how would they ever handle us? Would they make us swear never to talk with one another again? Would we have to renounce the many questions -- answered and otherwise -- we've ruminated over here? I mean how on earth could the hamster ever assure himself that we're a) on the level and not just collecting more data or b) likely to 'flip out' all over again?

I think it would be amazingly interesting if someone who'se been around here for a while posting under his or her own name actually took a shot at it. Personally, I nominate Joe!

Joe's qualifications for poster-boy turncoat:

1) He's intelligent and well-spoken. Plus he's armed with a lot of anti-Hamster info. They'd be happy to have him back and would be hoping, against all odds, that his return was sincere.

2) Joe's got a proven track record of being able to adapt and thrive in the cult. He stepped out for a while in the early eighties but he's now well-apprised of the fads and trends. He could fit in in days. Might take a few weeks but whatever.

3) He's already got a few videos.

4) He's well-heeled middle class. Owns his own home which, I'm assuming, still has some mortgage power depending on the urgings of his heart and his developing gratitude.

5) His defection would be a good, stiff blow to ex-premiedom. The day Joe stands up to sing arti again or lines up for a chance to show his gratitude is the day at least one of us ex's will kill himself. Then Joe will have to deal with all those posts about m's responsibility all over again. It'll serve him right but beyond that, it's a test of fire. If he perseveres he'll possibly show Maharaji that he can be trsuted all over again.

6) Chomsky.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 09:00:24 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You're a better choice, Jim
Message:
Joe is too level headed, even keeled, too damn sane.

You though, seem to be more...oh how shall I say it, crazier?... more emotional, more susceptible to an extreme shift in view.

You'd be the modern day St. Paul, who used to persecute the Christians, suddenly swinging the other way.

In fact, didn't Paul go blind for a few days? You could pull something similar. We could bring sex into it. You could go limp for several days, (or maybe it would take several weeks for you to notice a difference? I'm not sure what your present level of activity is), but you could become listless, bummed out, impotent, then you end up wandering around one night confused and you find yourself in a video presentation, and then just the vibration of His voice restores your manhood, your vitality, and you suddenly realize his true undeniable power and you have been saved!

Then you make a dramatic posting here and on ELK, and of course we play along, lamenting the fact that you have been tricked, some of us cursing you, some of us being very supportive of your decision to 'follow your heart', some of us laughing at your stupidity, some of us openly weeping for a lost brother, and then you go on your merry way and ....? I'm not sure what the point of all this is? What exactly would you do?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 09:28:48 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: John
Subject: oops
Message:
I don't know what I'd do but I woke up this morning thinking about what a dreadful thing to joke about (suicide) at this time and place. Gulp. David, if you read this.... sorry.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 11:18:03 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: oops
Message:
If you didn't have so much JEWISH ANGST then you wouldn't be so OBSESSED!

:-)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 16:00:31 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: John
Subject: I second the motion, Jim
Message:
I can hear it now: some old mahatma calling Jim the reincarnation of St. Paul..... Hey, he fits the profile PERFECTLY.... he he he!

Ok Jim, no flames now....this IS a joke... :-)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 09:35:48 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Why be angry?
Message:
Hi Gail,

Why don't I feel mad with Maharaji? Why was I in the cult so long? What lovely meaty questions.

First, I feel like I'm still exiting, so I might feel mad later, but right now, I feel fine. I'll try and explain why.

I'm an optimist, looking forward to what is to come in life. 'There's no use in crying over spilt milk.'

Like any religion, to be a premie, you need faith and effort, both of which I had. I think faith was a major ingredient in the 'glue' that kept me connected for so long.

Group pressure. Most of my closest friends, and my wife are all long time premies.

Also, I've always tried to judge people as I find them, rather than base my opinion on what others say, and my personal experience of Maharaji was that he was polite and shy, with a sense of humour. Of course, the times I spent with him were as 'devotee with Master', and he certainly doesn't seem shy when he's up on the stage being the Lord, but on a personal level, he was always fine with me. I think I used to inhibit him sometimes. I'm not sure if this was because I was a schoolteacher, or just a bit of a nutter. Perhaps what I'm trying to say is, when you remove 'Perfect Master', there is still a human being underneath. Whether Maharaji is victim or perpertrator is a subject for debate.

As I said in my 'journey' I see him as a victim. I've wondered why, out of the four brothers, the youngest was put on the throne and crowned. Could it be that his mum thought he would be easiest to control? If you look at Mataji's subsequent behaviour, it supports the theory.

Another reason for sticking around so long may be because I had plenty of good times amidst the craziness.

And don't forget the perks. Premies who spend time around Maharaji are treated with respect and have status in the 'community'. His most vociferous, enthusiastic devotees always seem to be those who are making some type of living from the organisation. If you're a big fish in a little pond, at least you're a big fish.

It is very satisfying to know the meaning of life, the secret of experiencing God, to be walking down the path of Truth, following the Creator, who has come down to earth for your personal benefit. Why spoil the magic?

Christ, reading this over, it's wonder I got out at all.

Anth.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 09:42:16 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Why be angry?
Message:
Like any religion, to be a premie, you need faith and effort, both of which I had. I think faith was a major ingredient in the 'glue' that kept me connected for so long.

And that's a GOOD thing?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 10:49:06 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Why be angry?
Message:
Not particularly. In reply to Gail's question, I was trying to come up with some reasons I'd been incarcerated for so many years. One of the reasons is faith.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 13:42:05 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Why be angry?
Message:
Gee, AJW, you are such a liberal. So nonjudgmental. Part of me admires that, but if you are anything like me, the anger will come later. I think for most people is really does take awhile to get rid of all the automatic thinking and to be able to look squarely at the cult reality. It's been over 15 years for me, and to some extent it's still happening. Actually, the anger was one of the healthier reactions I had to the whole experience. When I left I was angry at the cult, the premies, the organization, and very disappointed in Maharaji, but it took awhile before I could lay the blame where it belonged: squarely at his lotus feet.

I think it's interesting though, about a connection based on personal interactions with Maharaji. The only personal encounters I had with him, outside of those staged programs, were either neutral or negative. In other words, I had to rationalize because I saw him in as rather negative, vindictive, angry, greedy and frustrated. Plus, the fact that he was SO different in person than he appeared at programs was troubling also, since he was supposed to BE the perfect master. It wasn't supposed to be an act or a persona he switched on and off. And then, 99% of premies ONLY know Maharaji from those very staged, controlled programs and in those videos. So they are never able to see that other side.

I've also heard that Maharaji is very nice to people when he wants something from them. Do you think that was the case with you, in the sense that you were teaching his kids? Do you feel you ever really connected with him as a person?

And as far as being a victim, I'm sure there is some of that in operation here, but don't you think that by age 41 he has seen through it and gotten at least some self-awareness? And if that's true, then he had to have made a conscious choice to go forward with the charade nevertheless.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jan 12, 1999 at 14:25:41 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Why be angry?
Message:
Well said, Joe. Let's face it, AJW had a very unique situation and that's why his reaction to everything strikes me as so mild.

Me, I was just a run of the mill premie who got put through the grinder like thousands of others. So, I think my dislike and mistrust of the former GMJ is that much stronger.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 05:17:23 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: anthginn@yahoo.com
To: JW
Subject: Why be angry?
Message:
'I've also heard that Maharaji is very nice to people when he wants something from them. Do you think that was the case with you, in the sense that you were teaching his kids? Do you feel you ever really connected with him as a person?'

Hi JW,
The answers to your second question is not straightforward, because when I was with Maharaji, talking to him or whatever, I was always in the role of the devotee 'doing service' and receiving darshan from his master. I don't think this is a 'real connection with him as a person'. There were times, however, say, when I was watching a movie with him and his children for example, or when he came in the classroom, when our relationship was 'parent and teacher', and in these situations he came across just like any other concerned parent, as I said in my reply above, shy and polite. I don't know if this is what you meant by 'connect as a person'.

The context in which it makes sense to me is to see it like I was the tutor for the children of some rich rock star. I'd go down to the mansion every day, sometimes the rock star would come and chat. The connection was employer/employee. We never became 'pals' and I never felt completely relaxed.

As regards your first question, was he only being nice because he wanted something, I'd say no. I think he was being himself. Remember, most of my contact was in very normal and mundane type situations, when he wasn't being nice or nasty, simply a parent seeing how his children were doing in school.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 22:36:53 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Action on the newsgroup
Message:
There's quite a lot of posts coming in on the alt.cult.maharaji newsgroup on usenet. A certain premie calling himself Atman Das is posting prolifically and I'm sure he'd wecome some of the valued contributors from this page having a chat with him.

Usenet seems to be working better these days than it was a few years ago and very few posts get delayed. This Atman Das seems like a premie in the old vein and it looks like the alt.cult.maharaji newsgroup could once again become a major headache to Maharaji.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 23:26:20 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Sir David
Subject: Action on the newsgroup
Message:
Atman Das is definitely a moldy-oldy. I suspected you at first, but his posts originate on a South African server. The references to the Gospel of John are vintage GMJ. I remember him droning on about that, and can still hear his squeaky voice :)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 23:29:34 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Action on the newsgroup
Message:
Is there any way to read that group if you isp doesn't supply the feed? Since I am supposedly part of the ISP i find it quite embarrassing to ask systems to add it.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 09, 1999 at 00:25:15 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Selene
Subject: Adding A.C.M
Message:
Just send an email to 'root@YOURISP', where 'YOURISP' is.. well... your ISP. Say something like, 'Please add the alt.cult.maharaji newsgroup. Thankyou.' He'll be glad to see that you're not requesting alt.beastiality.maharaji, like everyone else he gets email from. He may even add a.b.m by habit :)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 09, 1999 at 11:43:21 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: You can use Dejanews
Message:
You can view any newsgroup and post to it from the web using Dejanews. Dejanews is also good for searching for posts about any item.

To search using dejanews go to:

http://www.dejanews.com/

and if you type in 'Maharaji' in the search field you'll get all the Usenet posts with Maharaji in them, going back to the dawn of time with the most recent first. If you type 'alt.cult.maharaji' in the search field, you'll get mainly just the posts to that newsgroup.

From the search page there's links to other pages where you can post to newsgroups and also read complete newsgroups on your web browser.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 09, 1999 at 12:47:38 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: link to alt.cult.maharaji
Message:
Thanks, Sir D - I was going to post this same thing but you beat me to it. I usually get to alt.cult.maharaji from the DejaNews help page on the ex-premie site (I find it easier). However, if you want to read more posts than those posted during the last 28 days, the access method that David posted works much better.

Here is the link to the site page:
DejaNews help
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 10, 1999 at 00:04:06 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Katie and Sir D
Subject: link to alt.cult.maharaji
Message:
Thanks all. I think I'll go the dejanews route. I really didn't
want people I work with to know I was interested in reading about M and his cult.
It is for me, one of the more embarrassing aspects of my past.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 21:19:45 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: Heretic's Journey
Message:
I've uploaded the Journeys entry for Happy Heretic.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 21:35:27 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Thanks very much
Message:
Heretic,

I really appreciate the time you've taken to take us through the time m's taken from you. I think your comments are fair and astute. Thanks again.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 23:23:49 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Heretic
Subject: Thanks very much
Message:
Wow! Thank you so much. That was wonderful, and hopeful. I almost feel like I could find my spirituality again, whatever it is.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 10, 1999 at 23:45:49 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Heretic
Subject: Thanks very much
Message:
Your journey entry was excellent. Thank you. I'm glad you got your life back.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 09, 1999 at 08:58:27 (EST)
From: syd
Email: syd@gold.ac.uk
To: Happy Heretic
Subject: Your Journey
Message:
Many thanks for taking the time to think about this and write it down.

I'm very new here but I'm sure many others will also agree that your Journey is thoughful and filled with insight and honesty. And humour - always useful in this life :)

I was involved for only a few years in the early 70's so escaped with my life and my time intact (although I still didn't get the education or career sorted for a long time but that's a different story). I'm still exploring this site and beginning to understand what happened to me and your description of your journey and some of your insights has helped me.

So: say it again - Thanks!

Syd
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 09, 1999 at 14:39:58 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: H H
Subject: Your Journey
Message:
Dear H.H.,
I was very impressed with your journey story and with all the research you have done. I ask myself all the time was all of this necessary (I went through alot of the same things you did and have come to a lot of the same conclusions). The ordeal made us all wiser somehow but man, what a lot to go through for a few techniques and some maturity. Then again perhaps it was unavoidable it being the 70's and all.

I liked your conclusion that you now are allergic to shiny eyed blissed out people!! Me too.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 20:13:35 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: time out for shp
Message:
dear everybody,

i just want to let you know out of professional courtesy that i have to take a break from this site for a little while. so if anybody is posting to me and i don't answer, that's why.

i have alot to do on the physical plane right now and i have discovered that posting in cyberspace seems to eat up earthtime bigtime!

if you want to communicate with me before i get back to spending time on site, you can e-mail me at mcpass1@earthlink.net

sincere best wishes to all.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 09, 1999 at 00:29:52 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Ship out for time
Message:
Thanks Ship,
It's gonna save me alot of time too.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 19:12:27 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: something we have in commom
Message:
you know how you can hear
a muted conversation
through a door or a wall
and you can't make out
all the words
but you sure as hell know
what's going on?

so even though you can't make out
all the words, snytax, innuendo,
metaphor, allegory, etc etc
you are definitely getting
the essential message
through the vibes.

somebody's angry or
somebody sad or
somebody's happy or
somebody's getting some or
somebody's hurt...
who needs all the f*cking words
if you got the basic message?
words can lie
vibes can't

this medium called the net
requires a sensitivity
and respect for vibes
if we are to truly
communicate.
to deny this
is to spit on
the feelings of the others
and get away with it
because we are not
in the same room
facing each other.
that is cowardly
premie or ex-premie.

there are some here
on both sides of the issue
who have respect and sincerely
want to communicate..
and there are some here
on both sides
who think this is a mosh pit
or a dark alley
to mug somebody in.

i don't think katie and brian
and whoever took the time
to set this up
meant to have meanness rule
hurt feelings and bad experiences
have to be worked out
but you don't have to
throw a log on the fire
just to see it burn

even though i am not an ex-premie
i can respect one and still disagree

if someone is hurt and lashes out
that is not the same as someone
who has made a profession
of lashing out

'one is sick until
one grows tired of being sick
and then the cure is found'

so bust on me for
using the word 'vibes'
and play all those 60's tapes out...
but you know
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 19:37:34 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: a line in the dirt
Message:
Do I feel more now?
Am I more in touch reading your words?
Shall adopt the poetic idiom
for my own free-rhythmic wanderings
invoking ram dass and robert bly
while asserting my own space?

I could plant a flag on the forum.
The moon now ex-premie territory!
All aliens beware!

What we have in common is we have left maharaji.
What we have in common is we are free to say what we want.
What we have in common is we'd rather be argumentative or appear
to be in chaos
than to warm people with false words and hopes,
lulling to the sound of our own voice as we do it,
and hoping that whatever incidental damage we cause is negligible.

You know, Shippy my acquaintance,
I really don't feel angry when I post to you. I originally posted several extremely friendly posts to you including an attempt to intercede in an argument between you and Jim. When I have gotten mad I have either attempted to be funny and lighthearted, or posted a warning of sorts- better than telling you to fuck off or so I thought. I have asked you to email me at least once (because I think argument is better as a personal rather than public affair- helps to avoid posturing and macho bullshit). The response I made to the thread immediately following this one was reasoned, not angry. In many or most instances I delete numerous personality references out of my posts. I attempt to be specific, which you have asked us to do several times when being critical of you.

I don't like where the forum goes with your posts but it's not up to me whether they post. It is my right to comment and I do. This is not about personality but you make it that way.

I do realise you are a person. I don't see you as bad or good- let's say- not black or white but grey. I've objected just as much to Jim posting evolutionary dogma as to your 'spiritual' posts.

Do what you like but try reading between the lines here too. You think you're the only person present when someone disagrees with you. You're quicker to slam and flame then I am.

Think about it..
you think I'm gonna whimper and die?

Runamok
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 20:00:24 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: hey now!
Message:
Do I feel more now?
Am I more in touch reading your words?

>i don't know...are you?

Shall adopt the poetic idiom
for my own free-rhythmic wanderings
invoking ram dass and robert bly
while asserting my own space?

>if it feels good, go for it!
i write this way because
it feels good and easy
not because i am copying
anybody's style.

I could plant a flag on the forum.
The moon now ex-premie territory!
All aliens beware!

>check out the canals on mars
they are all lines in the dirt too.
and look at that planet now.

What we have in common is we have left maharaji.
What we have in common is we are free to say what we want.
What we have in common is we'd rather be argumentative or appear
to be in chaos than to warm people with false words and hopes,
lulling to the sound of our own voice as we do it,
and hoping that whatever incidental damage we cause is negligible.

>what WE have in common is that we both know maharaji and have received knowledge.
what WE have in common is we are free to say what WE want.
i have no false words or hopes for you, and i have caused no damage, incidental or otherwise, to date that i can recall.
the 'we' you refer to IS your flag on the moon...you say we and you mean just the exer's as if i am not here....believe it or not, i actually have gotten the drift of what this site is about and what folks are feeling, ya know?

all i am saaaaaaaaaaaaying is give peace a chance.....
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 20:14:08 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: hey now!
Message:
well, here I go again. I can't seem to learn. I know you don't bite so I'll take a chance. That PT on the other hand! and thanks for the kind words last nite. Really.

But I do have to tell you shp that i don't think we have knowledge in common. Because, I don't believe in it.
I see some not so mysterious meditation techniques and a man who has made a fortune out of them. Plus a charismatic hype.
you seem like a good person. It is hard for some of us to watch people like you defend M.
But, I do hope I am not one of the abusive ones on here.
I try to keep it down. Sometimes I blow it. It is part of being alive and feeling.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 20:20:30 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: hey now!
Message:
But I do have to tell you shp that i don't think we have knowledge in common. Because, I don't believe in it.

>i meant that we have both experienced it to some degree, and at some point in time we both believed it. you are convinced it is bogus and i am not convinced of same.

It is hard for some of us to watch people like you defend M.

>i am not defending him.

But, I do hope I am not one of the abusive ones on here.

>Your sweetness transcends guru conflicts, bones, blood, time and space, selene. i am taking some time away from here out of necessity and i didn't want to leave this reply unposted.
just u b u.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 20:24:38 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: thanks
Message:
I hope things are ok.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 09, 1999 at 00:31:49 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: we are ex-premie
Message:
located at .org

Who are you again?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 11, 1999 at 11:18:20 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Canals on Mars
Message:
shp: Lowell's canals haven't been seen by anyone since. They don't exist and they aren't 'lines in the dirt.' Come on, man! Read something a little more recent, ok? Just because Lowell swore he 'saw' them, didn't make them REAL. Independent observation proved him wrong..... And yet, there are those among us that still believe that they exist, despite ALL evidence to the contrary. Just like the 'Man face' in the mountain. Why, there's ABSOLUTE PROOF of past intelligent life on mars, right? WRONG! Look at recent Hubble photos and you will note that the mountain looks NOTHING like a 'face' and NEVER DID! Shadows.... Shadows.... Shadows....

Hey, doesn't this situation sound a bit like the focus of this forum? Lights, mirrors and shadows!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 21:21:19 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Really, Run?
Message:
I've objected just as much to Jim posting evolutionary dogma as to your 'spiritual' posts.

What's 'evolutionary dogma'? Is that what you call all scientific knowledge you're not comfortable with?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 09, 1999 at 00:27:48 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Really running?
Message:
Actually, my point was that arguments with Ship are not personal ones. I also find religious dogma MORE offensive online here
(than scientific dog) because it is reminiscent of having dogma shoved down our throats in order to avoid actually thinking for ourselves as premies.

I don't find the discussion of evolution as relevant as you do, although I can understand why you might. My attitude about it has nothing to do with whether I agree with it or not.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 09, 1999 at 15:27:27 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Not so fast there
Message:
I also find religious dogma MORE offensive online here
(than scientific dog) because it is reminiscent of having dogma shoved down our throats in order to avoid actually thinking for ourselves as premies.


Well, again, I question this notion of 'scientific dog[ma]'. Science does not discourage thinking for onesself. Nothing I've ever come across in anything I've read has even hinted that 'here's why this happens but if you question the point, shut the fuck up.' To the contrary. I've been encouraged to think, think and think some more, by Dawkins and the boys. Dogmatic thought systems, on the other hand, make a virtue out of faith and actively discourage skepticism of any kind. Lumping science in with any of them is facile and completely unfair. Well?

I don't find the discussion of evolution as relevant as you do, although I can understand why you might.

You're right that I think it's entirely relevant to the notion of spirituality. Why don't you think it's relevant?

My attitude about it has nothing to do with whether I agree with it or not.

What does your attitude stem from?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 09, 1999 at 16:40:26 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: If it ain't broke..
Message:
I'll respond to this as best as I can because you are asking me to. Maybe some of the scientists on line can join in and try to give more authoritative opinions on the same issues.

The objectivity issue is what Kuhn discusses. If a fact and a theory are confused for each other, there's going to be a less than objective climate for discussion.

All scientific facts are theories that have a great deal of acceptance because they have been well proven. It doesn't mean they can't be disproven, only that there is a general acceptance. What I said is religious belief is more problematic in terms of it being dogmatic more than science, but using the word dogma about science is fair enough. I pointed out it's more a prob with religion before you posted!

The other stuff you ask is easier to respond to.

I'm just not as currently captivated as you are by it. I've been reading e.e. cummings a bit lately and would like to read more poetry and fiction than I have for a long time.

I am motivated to investigate evolution and hold considerable stock in it. Whether it's a fact is not something anybody has offered to pay me to vote on. I don't owe an opinion on it, do I?
I would like to look at the books you mentioned when and if it's a good time for me. I think of fundamentalist creationism as a
joke, but I wish you could accept what I'm saying without me have
to mention that. It's not worth mentioning really. As a hobby, I am more interested in math and computing.

I thought you said you would lay off the scientific arguments.

If it ain't broke don't fix it.. they say.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 09, 1999 at 17:34:48 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: If it ain't broke..
Message:
All scientific facts are theories that have a great deal of acceptance because they have been well proven. It doesn't mean they can't be disproven, only that there is a general acceptance. What I said is religious belief is more problematic in terms of it being dogmatic more than science, but using the word dogma about science is fair enough. I pointed out it's more a prob with religion before you posted!

Run,

I know you don't really want to discuss this but you keep trying to slide in that awful left-handed compliment to science: sure it's dogmatic but no where nearly so much as religion. Well, we could argue about that on and on, I guess. You'll likely get that from me if you keep saying stuff like this. As I said, I think that's an entirely unfair characterization. Can you think of a single scientifically-accepted fact that's successful on the basis of being shoved down peoples' throats? I can't.

I don't recall saying I'd lay off the scientific arguments. If I did, I take it back. Science closes the door on a lot of the spiritual fuzziness that makes people susceptible to gurus. It's helped me. I think it's helped others. Furthermore, if you ever do get around to reading some of this stuff I think you'll fucking love it. So there!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 09, 1999 at 17:49:04 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Learning science
Message:
Science closes the door on a lot of the spiritual fuzziness that makes people susceptible to gurus. It's helped me. I think it's helped others.

Yes, Jim, it has. Science helps keep me grouded. I feel closer to reality because of it. With M & K, I was searching for a 'reality' I never found, and it was a godawful learning experience. Studying the discoveries of science is a wonderful learning experience. It's educational, fascinating, at times enchanting, and basically just a whole shitload of fun. I wish I had been wise enough to study it years earlier, instead of falling for the likes of Maharaji.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 09, 1999 at 17:54:56 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: If it ain't broke..
Message:
I dont get it Jim. You are repeating what I say in qualifying my statement, that it's more of a problem with religion. Do you want an exact per cent quoted? You are raising an issue which I do not disagree and specifically spelled out as much. You seem to miss one point which is the difference between theoretical and applied.

Theories are constructed to fit the facts as we know them until there is a better theory to fit the facts- which by then are prob slightly different. Einstein, as I have been able to understand him, was not accepted because he was at odds with the Newtonian view of the universe. There was a turnover time where people realised he had fit the facts better with his theory. Any scientific fact is really according to the best information that the individual has. No fact has total objective proof.

Could more scientists jump in this?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 09, 1999 at 19:44:11 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Daming with faint praise
Message:
I dont get it Jim. You are repeating what I say in qualifying my statement, that it's more of a problem with religion. Do you want an exact per cent quoted? You are raising an issue which I do not disagree and specifically spelled out as much. You seem to miss one point which is the difference between theoretical and applied.

My objection, Run, is in saying it's a problem with science at all. Come on, you know the drill. Some people say that science is jsut another set of beliefs, obtained and protected like any other. I say that's bullshit. THAT's the point.

I'm not arguing about the inherently tentative nature of scientific knowledge. It's possible that one day we might discover there really is no such thing as gravity, that the force we called such was really a hodgepodge of several distinct forces. Or something like that. Still, when gravity's existence is taught as a fact it's not an exercise in dogma. Rather it's just relying on some time-tested inductive thinking. Not absolutely air-tight, nor is it taught that way. It simply is not dogmatic.

Anyway, you raised all this. I'm just responding. Your first post did indeed sound like a potshot at science. Can't you see why?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 09, 1999 at 17:07:46 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jim & Runamok
Subject: Not so fast there
Message:
Jim & Run,

The best line I've seen so far that differentiates religion from science is, Science learns; Religion teaches. Science seeks knowledge where religion claims to already have it.

What annoys me most about religion is when it thinks that certain findings of science only prove what religion already 'knew', such as the Big Bang theory, which proves that the universe was, at it's birth, an infinite opaque light. Bible thumpers right away were saying 'look here, in the bible... Let there be light. We knew it all along'. The problem is that there's a time difference of 15 billion years between when the bible says the universe was born and what science has proven.

Religion is always playing catch-up with science. It's never the other way around.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 14:28:02 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: All you premies out there
Subject: If Gm doesn't have power
Message:
over you, why do you feel the need to come here on the forum and defend him? Why can't he come here and defend himself? Why do you have to fight his battles for him?

Do you see yourself as his subordinate or do you see yourself as his equal? If the former, then he has power over you. Period.

If he has power over you, then you must have entrusted yourself to him. If you have entrusted yourself to him, then doesn't it make sense to read everything you can get your hands on about him?. I'm not saying you have to believe it all, just do your research.
Helen
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 15:29:00 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: originally it was a love thing
Message:
and researching someone you fall in love with, whether a 'significant other' or a divine teacher is really tacky, unless it's a Donald Trump pre-nuptual thing, and i think that's tacky too, but good business. and also with the aids epidemic, taking blood tests is a good idea. we all trusted our mystic pick-ups inside and we all have something in common here, premie and ex: we chose maharaji. and one of the the best chances of us connecting here is to talk about something we have or had in common, without attachemnt to the outcome of the conversation.

due to the advent of new information and news changes in the relationship and our suggested behavior, i am doing exactly what you prescribed in the time that i have, and that is to read and research.

as for 'am i subordinate or equal?' question, i used to automatically put myself 'below' him, (not that there's anything wrong with that,) in a teacher-student relationship and even more as lord-mortal link. lately, i don't see subordinate/equal/above/below relationships much anymore, with him or anyone. it's more like 'he has his function in the universe and i have mine.' is the root of a tree subordinate because it's the lowliest part of the tree, or is the tree dependent on that root to stay alive and functioning? so position and all that have become a moot point for me at this point in time, and it feels just fine.

and i don't come here to defend anyone, you know that. i come to speak the truth and fear no man.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 18:28:43 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: love that 'thing'
Message:
When you defend someone in a public or semi-public forum, that love 'thing' becomes irrelevant in as much as it does not specifically address any issues raised other than your state of mind. Your motives, state of mind, etc are not at issue unless you raise that issue AND YOU DO!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 18:37:12 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: myob, s'il vous plait
Message:
runamok,

helen addressed a post to all premies. she asked some questions.
i gave her my answers best i could. what's your problem? i feel like it's friday night and you are cruising for a rumble, just like high school. so go back and read helen's post and read mine and ask yourself why you had to get nasty. needing to 'belong' to an ex-premie' clique is just as sad and weak as needing to 'belong' to a premie clique. tgif, bud.

Helen's questions:
Do you see yourself as his subordinate or do you see yourself as his equal? If the former, then he has power over you. Period.

If he has power over you, then you must have entrusted yourself to him. If you have entrusted yourself to him, then doesn't it make sense to read everything you can get your hands on about him?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 18:43:28 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: defend? moi? non, monsieur.
Message:
runamok,

here is the last line of my post in which you accused me of defending someone or something:

and i don't come here to defend anyone, you know that. i come to speak the truth and fear no man.

that includes you.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 20:34:13 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: originally it was a love thing
Message:
Maharaji sees it as a hierarchical relationship, shp. The egalitarian vision you may have of your relationship with him is not the way he sees it. For crying out loud, his residence is a frigging plantation!!

I got me a new dog--a 10 month old SHepherd-Golden Retriever mix. SHe's very sweet and gentle, her name is Misha. I'm sorry your dog Tiny died.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 20:50:34 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: originally it was a love thing
Message:
just clearing the deck before i sign off for awhile
tiny was cool, 14 yrs, little corgi, marked like a doberman
black with tan appointments
used to tell folks he was a miniature doberman
and watch their reaction.....hahaha
he was more human than some people i know.

plantation? hey, maybe when hemp is legalized, we can grow some there...the non-psychoactive stuff of course.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index