Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 35

From: Jan 8, 1999

To: Jan 25, 1999

Page: 2 Of: 5



Salah -:- Never experienced So Much .... -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 06:22:38 (EST)
__John -:- Never experienced So Much .... -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 10:39:25 (EST)
__Rick -:- Never experienced So Much .... -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 10:42:44 (EST)
__AJW -:- Never experienced So Much .... -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 11:21:01 (EST)
____x -:- Never experienced So Much .... -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 12:12:01 (EST)
__Salah -:- Never experienced So Much .... -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 13:10:14 (EST)
____Jean-Michel -:- Never experienced So Much .... -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 13:22:59 (EST)
______Salah -:- So now we believe in Freud -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 13:38:18 (EST)
________hamzen -:- Salah/cosmic experiences -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 14:11:15 (EST)
__________Salah -:- Spiritual Experiences/Hog Wash -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 14:22:48 (EST)
____________ham -:- gee em -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 16:53:24 (EST)
______________Salah -:- Sure Why Not -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 18:00:49 (EST)
________________ham -:- Sure Why Not -:- Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 03:23:08 (EST)
________Jean-Michel -:- No need to believe in Freud! -:- Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 06:31:15 (EST)
______Liz Shoe -:- Never experienced So Much .... -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 18:04:42 (EST)
________Jean-Michel -:- Freud & Mahatmas -:- Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 03:59:27 (EST)
__________Liz -:- Freud & Mahatmas -:- Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 20:54:46 (EST)
____gerry -:- Never experienced So Much .... -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 13:31:21 (EST)
____JW -:- Never experienced So Much .... -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 13:36:26 (EST)
____Jerry -:- Never experienced So Much .... -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 15:56:45 (EST)
______Salah -:- Unintelligent gooblieguck -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 16:01:52 (EST)
________gerry -:- Unintelligent gooblieguck -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 16:11:35 (EST)
________Jerry -:- Unintelligent gooblieguck -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 17:02:10 (EST)
____Mike -:- Never experienced So Much .... -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 16:21:56 (EST)
______Jerry -:- Never experienced So Much .... -:- Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 13:59:52 (EST)
________Jerry -:- One more thing, Mike -:- Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 14:11:29 (EST)
__________Mike -:- One more thing, Mike -:- Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 15:05:29 (EST)
____Helen -:- Never kissing those feet again -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 16:31:51 (EST)
______Mike -:- and don't forget.... -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 16:49:54 (EST)
________Helen -:- and don't forget.... -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 19:26:31 (EST)
______Salah -:- Never kissing those feet again -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 17:03:32 (EST)
________Mike -:- Salah, please read my -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 17:14:49 (EST)
__________Mike -:- ooppps! -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 17:22:33 (EST)
____________gerry -:- ooppps! -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 17:25:17 (EST)
______________Mike -:- Egg on face, big time ;) (nt) -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 17:41:44 (EST)
__________gerry -:- Salah, please kiss my ass -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 17:22:54 (EST)
__________Salah -:- Mike..Freud..Dog Thing -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 17:51:24 (EST)
____________Mike -:- Mike..Freud..Dog Thing -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 18:31:32 (EST)
______________Salah -:- Mike..The Dog that wagged tail -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 21:06:24 (EST)
______________Jerry -:- Truly prefious -:- Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 15:05:21 (EST)
________________Helen -:- Truly prefious -:- Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 22:05:05 (EST)
________Helen -:- Depth vs. Flash -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 19:39:21 (EST)
________Jethro -:- Never kissing those feet again -:- Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 03:06:33 (EST)
________Jerry -:- Never kissing those feet again -:- Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 11:15:55 (EST)
__________Mike -:- Not a bad description -:- Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 13:55:28 (EST)
____________Jerry -:- Now, I got ya' -:- Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 14:54:24 (EST)
__chr -:- Never experienced So Much .... -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 17:57:23 (EST)
____Salah -:- I agrtee with u -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 18:08:42 (EST)
______Jim -:- Well I don't -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 21:18:16 (EST)
________chr -:- Well I don't -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 23:56:06 (EST)
__________Jim -:- Are we disagreeing? -:- Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 09:53:24 (EST)
____________chr -:- Are we disagreeing? -:- Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 20:37:55 (EST)
______________Jim -:- Are we disagreeing? -:- Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 21:03:05 (EST)
________________Liz -:- Are we disagreeing? -:- Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 21:15:49 (EST)
__________________Jim -:- Monica Lewis -:- Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 21:25:01 (EST)
____________________Liz -:- Monica Lewis -:- Sat, Jan 23, 1999 at 22:09:31 (EST)
______________Liz -:- Are we disagreeing? -:- Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 21:05:25 (EST)
________Liz Shoe -:- Well I don't -:- Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 00:21:35 (EST)
__________Jim -:- Well I don't -:- Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 10:01:25 (EST)
________Mike -:- Wait, Jim -:- Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 16:19:20 (EST)
__________ham -:- Wait, Jim -:- Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 18:35:42 (EST)
____________Mike -:- Hi Ham -:- Fri, Jan 22, 1999 at 10:14:32 (EST)
____Sir Dave -:- Never experienced So Much .... -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 19:44:17 (EST)
______Helen -:- Never experienced So Much .... -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 19:47:13 (EST)
______Jim -:- Does this help? -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 21:33:10 (EST)
________Sir Dave -:- Does this help? -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 21:59:33 (EST)
__________Jim -:- Does this help? -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 22:13:09 (EST)
____________Sir Dave -:- Does this help? -:- Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 07:18:14 (EST)
______________Jim -:- Does this help? -:- Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 10:10:07 (EST)
______________Mike -:- My vote -:- Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 16:13:05 (EST)

Brian -:- Maharaji, The Responsible -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 00:35:15 (EST)
__Jethro -:- Maharaji, The Responsible -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 02:49:59 (EST)
__VP -:- Maharaji, The Responsible -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 16:08:52 (EST)
__KK -:- Maharaji, The Responsible -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 16:41:47 (EST)
____x -:- Maharaji, The Showman -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 19:59:52 (EST)

Jim -:- Poor thing -:- Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 22:42:21 (EST)

Ben Lurking -:- We weren't the only idiots -:- Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 21:49:19 (EST)
__Jim -:- We weren't the only idiots -:- Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 21:58:05 (EST)
__Sir D -:- We weren't the only idiots -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 21:00:52 (EST)
____Ben Lurking -:- more We ..... idiots -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 23:43:35 (EST)

Sam -:- Ex & Premie Websites -:- Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 15:58:41 (EST)
__Runamok -:- Ex & Premie Websites -:- Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 16:37:58 (EST)
__JW -:- Ex & Premie Websites -:- Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 18:29:00 (EST)
____Sam -:- Ex & Premie Websites -:- Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 20:35:22 (EST)
____AE -:- Ex & Premie Websites -:- Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 20:46:16 (EST)
______barney -:- new House of Drek site -:- Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 21:40:51 (EST)
________Roger -:- Barney - you idiot! -:- Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 21:45:46 (EST)
______JW -:- So It Was YOU! -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 12:40:18 (EST)
__Brian -:- Premie Org/Com Lives Again -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 00:04:39 (EST)
____Brian -:- HRC grabs the domain -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 00:54:18 (EST)
______Sam -:- HRC grabs the domain -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 01:10:23 (EST)
________John -:- HRC grabs the domain -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 15:06:37 (EST)
______Jean-Michel -:- Arti Request stuff ! -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 16:11:43 (EST)
________gerry again-sorry -:- Arti -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 17:38:38 (EST)

Brian -:- Yugoslavian Premie -:- Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 00:00:08 (EST)
__Gail -:- Looking for Ex-premies -:- Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 05:37:08 (EST)
__Robyn -:- Yugoslavian Premie -:- Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 09:49:06 (EST)
____Brian -:- Try this one -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 00:11:37 (EST)
______gerry -:- Try this one -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 00:49:22 (EST)
______Gail -:- Try this one--OK -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 00:51:26 (EST)
________Brian -:- Thanks Gail -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 10:00:07 (EST)
__________Gail -:- Thanks Brian -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 23:52:05 (EST)

Jim -:- The first shall be last, etc. -:- Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 22:25:03 (EST)
__barney -:- My younger brother -:- Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 13:08:48 (EST)
____Selene -:- My younger brother -:- Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 13:18:15 (EST)
____Mike -:- Heck, barney.... -:- Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 14:31:18 (EST)
______barney, er Roger! -:- Heck, barney.... (ot) -:- Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 21:58:27 (EST)
________gerry -:- Heck, barney.... (ot) -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 00:52:46 (EST)
__________barney -:- me and my monkey (ot) -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 04:36:13 (EST)
____Gail -:- My younger brother -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 01:53:45 (EST)
__JW -:- The first shall be last, etc. -:- Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 13:38:05 (EST)
____Jerry -:- The first shall be last, etc. -:- Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 16:02:06 (EST)
______Katie -:- The first shall be last, etc. -:- Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 18:00:58 (EST)
______JW -:- The first shall be last, etc. -:- Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 20:05:45 (EST)
________Katie -:- The first shall be last, etc. -:- Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 20:19:57 (EST)
__________JW -:- The first shall be last, etc. -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 12:44:27 (EST)
________ham -:- The first shall be last, etc. -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 00:51:44 (EST)
__________JW -:- The first shall be last, etc. -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 19:48:25 (EST)
____________ham -:- The first shall be last, etc. -:- Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 04:56:22 (EST)
______________JW -:- The first shall be last, etc. -:- Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 14:33:44 (EST)
________________ham -:- The first shall be last, etc. -:- Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 20:36:34 (EST)
__________________JW -:- The first shall be last, etc. -:- Fri, Jan 22, 1999 at 13:31:44 (EST)
________Jerry -:- The first shall be last, etc. -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 12:18:49 (EST)
__________Katie -:- The first shall be last, etc. -:- Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 23:16:52 (EST)
______barney -:- The God Part of the Brain -:- Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 22:09:33 (EST)

JW -:- Passivity Through Boredom -:- Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 19:06:42 (EST)
__Selene -:- Passivity Through Boredom -:- Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 19:17:29 (EST)
____gerry -:- Passivity Through Boredom -:- Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 21:03:43 (EST)
__Jim -:- Our take on Clinton -:- Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 19:26:23 (EST)
____gerry -:- My take on Clinton -:- Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 20:54:26 (EST)
______Selene -:- My take on Clinton -:- Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 21:16:09 (EST)
______Jim -:- My take on Clinton -:- Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 21:36:43 (EST)
________Selene -:- My take on Clinton -:- Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 21:41:51 (EST)
________RT -:- Clinton on the take -:- Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 12:25:04 (EST)
______red -:- My take on Clinton -:- Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 01:28:19 (EST)
________Jim -:- My take on Clinton -:- Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 11:35:23 (EST)
__________ham -:- democracy -:- Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 01:28:06 (EST)
______Runamok -:- Clinton stuff -:- Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 01:43:44 (EST)
________Sir Dave -:- Clinton & JFK stuff -:- Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 03:20:09 (EST)
__________Runamok -:- Clinton & JFK stuff -:- Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 03:42:22 (EST)
__________Sam -:- Clinton Should Know Better -:- Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 04:40:17 (EST)
____________Sam -:- Prim Rawat's Politics -:- Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 05:51:30 (EST)
______________JW -:- Prim Rawat's Politics -:- Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 12:57:59 (EST)
________________Sam -:- Prim Rawat's Politics -:- Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 16:16:33 (EST)

Jim -:- Wish I had a transcript -:- Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 18:01:40 (EST)
__JW -:- Wish I had a transcript -:- Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 19:12:11 (EST)
____chr -:- Wish I had a transcript -:- Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 19:49:39 (EST)
______bill -:- ok -:- Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 00:46:57 (EST)
________chr -:- ok -:- Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 01:57:23 (EST)
__Jerry -:- Recognizing the master -:- Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 19:34:51 (EST)

Interesting -:- Meditation Techniques -:- Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 17:17:24 (EST)
__Gail -:- Meditation Techniques -:- Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 17:31:20 (EST)
____Interesting -:- Meditation Techniques -:- Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 17:40:40 (EST)
______Gail -:- Meditation Techniques -:- Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 17:56:11 (EST)
______Brian -:- Hey, JM!! -:- Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 22:56:35 (EST)
________Jean-Michel -:- Hey, Brian!! -:- Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 03:58:02 (EST)
__________Brian -:- Well, in that case -:- Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 09:41:56 (EST)
______Jean-Michel -:- Meditation Techniques -:- Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 09:51:45 (EST)

RT -:- Elan Vital Vitamins in stores -:- Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 12:24:11 (EST)
__Gail -:- Elan Vital Vitamins in stores -:- Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 18:09:32 (EST)


Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 06:22:38 (EST)
From: Salah
Email: salah_h@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Never experienced So Much ....
Message:
I remember the darshan lines in the 70s. Long lines waiting to kiss the master's feet. As the line got shorter and nearer to MaharajJi, I became aware of this imense energy field that I was drawn into. Never experienced that before or again. It was like being on auto, so much power and enery comming out, amazing. Awsome is the word...absolutely awsome power...Ms body was pulsating with power and energy...sometimes you can see it through his skin...his body radiates so much power...Absolutely awsome...
Then after the darshan..i fell into a swoon dump founded and amazed at the power and experience....

Regards to All

I wish I could talk to MaharajJi online...I have an icq no. hehehe

MaharajJi...pls drop me an email...
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 10:39:25 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Salah
Subject: Never experienced So Much ....
Message:
There were times when I remember feeling something powerful, though I would not describe it as you have described. A big part of what I experienced was simply boredom at having to stand in line and fight my mind. Fight my mind because my mind does not like to stand in line for anything. and then of course relief because it was over.

I remember the first time I had darshan in England in '73. I waited for hours outside in a line, and went practicaly crazy with boredom. I remember feeling absolutely nothing at all when I went past him other than feeling cheated because as I was going past there were all these people shoving me, and then I felt so relieved to be done with it.

Did you ever go to a Beatles concert? I did, and there were hundreds of girls swooning and collapsing everywhere. They were most definetly having an experience. Was the experience coming from John Paul George and ringo? Of course not! We are capable of having all kinds of amazing experiences because of the way we think and feel about things and people. It has nothing to do with the actual things themselves.

Have you ever had a crush on someone? So when they walk in the room, you get all nervous and excited and happy inside? Why? Is the nervousness, happiness, excitement coming from that person? Of course not, somehow it's generated inside us by our attitude, thoughts, feelings for that person.

Here was my mind in the 70's: 'I have a GURU. He's the LORD!!! And he is gonna let me kiss his feet!!!! Oh, my gosh, I can't believe it, it's gonna be so incredible, I mean I've heard from so many people how incredible it's gonna be, and we've been waiting and waiting for so long and God I'm so tired, and oh my gosh, there he is....!! ... Oh, he's gone, what the hell was that all about?...ohhhhh, there's that cute initiator and she's holding me, she's got her arm around me, oh my god, she's touching me, ohhhh, I'm collapsing in her arms!' [the following x - rated material has been censored due to the graphic nature of its content.]
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 10:42:44 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Salah
Subject: Never experienced So Much ....
Message:
That darshan experience was the sound of your own imagination and delusion. Life can have a few chilly moments, so no one can blame you for wanting to escape.

As far as maharaji talking to you online... don't you remember you're a piece of dust?
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 11:21:01 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: anthginn@yahoo.com
To: Salah
Subject: Never experienced So Much ....
Message:
Hi Salah,

I remember we had a big programme in Wales, in the late 70s. A darshan tent was set up with a life sized photo of Maharaji, sitting, up on a stage, with a cushion in front of the photo. The premies lined up, filed past the picture and kissed the cushion in front of his feet. Several premies passed out then too.

Do you think they were having a genuine experience of 'darshan?'

If this is the case, you could have a big picture of him in your living room, and receive darshan several times a day.

Come to think of it, you could find a picture of him laying down, get it blown up to life size, mount it on card, then put it in your bed and get really close.

After all, it's the experience that counts, not the externals, right?

AJW
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 12:12:01 (EST)
From: x
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Never experienced So Much ....
Message:
I think the definitive story that proves darshan to be self delusion combined with group hysteria is the one where the premies were asked, before darshan started, to 'Please not faint this time as there are not enough facilities to accomodate all the fainters.' Needless to say no one fainted, bucking a growing trend of fainting and swooning before the lord that had shown no signs of slowing down on its own.
How can anybody explain this?
Unfortunately I found myself in several darshan lines as a kid. These were scary and confusing situations. On the one hand there was the terrible boredom of waiting for hours, while all the googly- eyed, blissed out premies(including my mom) milled around trying to appear detached, humble and mindless all at once. On the other hand there was the vibe that this was what it was really all about and how lucky I am that I have knowledge and I'm just a little kid. gee, I must have incredible karma, lucky me.
I remember one time in particular when I was quickly hustled past gmj, by his handlers, to kiss his feet. I bent my head to do the deed, then when I looked up at him, he looked right at me, and....
We both knew. We both knew it was fake and weird. HE LOOKED AWAY FIRST, he was embarassed and caught, BY ME, and he knew it, he knew that I knew he was a fraud and he knew he had betrayed himself, by looking candidly at me. I was not in a glaze like everybody else, I was concious and aware, and I saw right through him!
Then the moment passed and it was like it never happened.
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 13:10:14 (EST)
From: Salah
Email: slah_h@hotmail.com
To: Salah
Subject: Never experienced So Much ....
Message:
I am a person of sound mind. I dont really liôok for these experiences to come my way. If I am told here that these experiences are my own delusion, then I am really sorry for you folks...u obviously dont believe in your own exeperiences or other people's experiences if they dont conform to your own theories or whatever point you are trying to make...

I am just putting the record straight..i had repeated experiences like that during Darshan and also one to one encounter....I cant explain it logically....there is no logical explanation...

How many 13 yeart olds do u guys know who turned everybody around and made u guys 20+ years later talking here on the Forum about it...

Regards

BE OBJECTIVE
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 13:22:59 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Salah
Subject: Never experienced So Much ....
Message:
I've had that type of experience too (bliss, special kind of consciousness, etc) in other situations:
other gurus
love relationships
beautiful landscapes
deep relaxation states

My logical explanation is that some situations you're over-sensitive to, trigger something in your brain that 'gives' you these bliss (and other) feelings.
These situations are learned culturally I guess. Some kind of massive endorphins release I guess.
This phenomenon has been described by many individuals in many cults.
S. Freud made a whole essai on this issue (Civilization and discontent), as an answer to Romain Roland who was his friend and was involved with Ramakrishna.
R. Roland was describing him this bliss feeling, and was also wondering about what it was.
Every ex-premie should read this.
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 13:38:18 (EST)
From: Salah
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: So now we believe in Freud
Message:
I would much rather believe in my own experiences then read Freud's book...If i cant believe in my own experiences and think that they are delusions...then sorry guys...life does not apeal very much anymore.....

So in another 20 years there will be another forum...to discuss why like the experiences we are having now are delusions....
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 14:11:15 (EST)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Salah
Subject: Salah/cosmic experiences
Message:
Salah, there is a difference between having a deep meaningful cosmic experience and the explanation of that experience to oneself.
When you are in 'cosmic consciousness' states explaining them to yourself is a complete waste of time because you have no or very little connection to reality as it is normally understood. We do not have a shared language to describe these kind of experiences. These experiences are not unique to followers of gm, neither are they unique to gurus, believers in god or whoever. They are very dependent on your attitude & focus.
This does not mean the experiences themselves are delusional, any more than any experience of anything is delusional.

It is documented that there is a site in the brain that can be stimulated with electrodes to give a cosmic experience and even an experience of a divine presence, to non-spiritual/religious people. There are also a number of hormones that are psychotropic, such as dmt, as well as cabbinoids etc that look like they can be triggered from within the brain. The list is pretty long.

It does not have to be a choice between believing your explanations of your experiences completely or that your experiences are delusional. GM and all gurus/religions feed off of this kind of simplistic thinking.
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 14:22:48 (EST)
From: Salah
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Spiritual Experiences/Hog Wash
Message:
There are many drugs as u pointed out.....But they dont define spiritual experiences...Our minds and brains have been so indoctrinated by linear thinking and logic...and me as a Physcist is the first one to admit that...But there is a whole realm of experiences which cant be explained in this rational world we live in...because it defies rationality and linear logic....

The human brain has the capacity to experience these experiences...but on the average we dont....and by the way...I was not refering to the darshan line as a cosmic experience..I was just refering to my experience of being close to M and just wading through this wave after wave of energy and power...i literaly had to wave my way through it like being in the thick of an electric storm....how u analye that is your own perception ...I am just stating my experience....By the way I have no Ax to grind with M....I came by my own free will and left by my own free will

Regards
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 16:53:24 (EST)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Salah
Subject: gee em
Message:
Would be interested to know why you left the man, care to share it?
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 18:00:49 (EST)
From: Salah
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Sure Why Not
Message:
Sure why not.....
Well I stayed in the ashram from 72-74, then went back to college, and really just like followed a professional path. I did not have much in common with premies , and like my path diverted from there on...kept in touch on the periphery, and last time I saw M was about 10 years ago....

I still can experience the Knowldege...but I never had an axe to grind against M except for the Hindu stuff...

Is that enought
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Date: Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 03:23:08 (EST)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Salah
Subject: Sure Why Not
Message:
Thanks for that Salah.
Re the drugs naturally in our bodies, the spot in the brain capable of producing transpersonal/divine presence experiences, not saying that describing these as a possible source defines the totality of these type of experiences, but don't you find it interesting that they exist, and are capable of triggering these experiences. It is also well documented that the mind/body interaction is not just a one-way, that there is a feedback loop.
Would be interested to know what kind of model/s you use to try to explain these experiences you are describing.
Would also be interested to hear your take on evolution and as a physicist your experience of 'honesty' within the scientific community you know (thread continued from before, now re-started above).
By the way, like your punky defensiveness, think it's very healthy & if that saved you from getting too sucked into the gm thing a very useful asset.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 06:31:15 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Salah
Subject: No need to believe in Freud!
Message:
We are not the first one struggling with this, and professionals have been confronted to it.

Why not listen to what THEY say about their experiences with people like us?

Freud : Civilization and Discontents. This essay was written in answer to a question from one of his friends, Romain Rolland, who was a well-known disciple of Ramakrishna. He wrote 'Ramakrishna's teaching' and also a book about his successor Vivekananda. Ramakrishna was also part of Radhasoami tradition. His question to Freud was related to the beautiful and blissful feeling you can discover through meditation. This is an 100 pages answer to people who are interested in psychology.

Sudhir Kakar : Shamans, Mystics and Doctors (Alfred A. Knopf, Inc., New York). S. Kakar is an Indian psychoanalyst, practicing in Bombay. He studied in the US. He analyses several Indian mystic groups, including the branch of Radha Soami led by Charan Singh. This is very well documented study, and is interesting as it is analyzed by an Indian western minded psychoanalyst.

I found BOTH books extremely enlightening. It doesn't solve anything of course, they only shed an other light on our problem.
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 18:04:42 (EST)
From: Liz Shoe
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Never experienced So Much ....
Message:
Hi Jean-Michel,

I was very intererested in Civilization and Discontent. It would be great if you could put it on your web-site. I know it is very long so perhaps you could put in the best bits.

I looked it up on the net but didn't find anything. I will try to get it at the local library.

Also please let me know how to get back to the Mahatma Satsang on your site. I couldn't find it.

As you can tell I'm new to the site and the Internet.

Thanks for all the info.

Liz Shoe
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Date: Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 03:59:27 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: jmkahn@club-internet.fr
To: Liz Shoe
Subject: Freud & Mahatmas
Message:
Hi Liz,

Here you go:

Mahatmaji's Satsang online

Reg Civilization & Discontent: I don't know whether it's copyright protected or not.
Could you investigate this ?
Maybe Jim knows?

If it's not, I guess I could take big excerpts, otherwise only small paragraphs to indicate what it's about.

What do YOU think about this book by the way?
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Date: Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 20:54:46 (EST)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Freud & Mahatmas
Message:
Bon Jour Jean-Michel,

All the way over there in France.

I can't let you know if I like the two books you recommended yet, but I will as soon as I get Civilization & Discontent by Freud and Shamans, Mystics & Doctors. The library has put them by for me to pick up. I also asked them about a new book called Mind Virus(es) but they haven't got it in yet.

I am curious to know how these guys explain the mystical experience - whatever that is. I find it hard to believe that anyone can explain and evaluate another persons experience whether mystical, spiritual or worldly for that matter but I wait with baited breath.

Which reminds me I have a joke for Jim: Canadians are one step
ahead of M, they can SEE their breath! Thought he would appreciate this especially at this time of year.

My take on meditation, the big K, or whatever is,is that it's a bit like a magic carpet ride along an emotional tone scale; it can drop you at the bottom of this scale one step above death to Apathy where you can think that you are experiencing peace but are really brain-dead and your mind is very stuck, or you could be somewhere in the middle like mild interest or boredom or it could land you in a wonderful place called Enthusiasm where you become a light-hearted soul with a free & flexible mind where you would definately think you were a winner.

Or I've been told it might take you to a place called Ectasy which to tell you the truth unfortunately I have'nt experienced much of after many years of practicing the big K and having a few K reviews to make sure I was doing it right. I think it's also called Bliss. I'm finding my own bliss doing things I'm enthusiastic about.
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 13:31:21 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Salah
Subject: Never experienced So Much ....
Message:
Dear objective Salah,

Actually it was the Indian mahatmas who convinced me that knowledge was something I wanted. Fat boy had little to do with it. I saw him a couple of times in the US and felt nothing out of the ordinary (boredom, puzzzlement, with a little envy at the people around me.)

I went to Guru Pupu at the Ally Pally in 73, but skipped the darshan bit to see a little of London. I'm so glad I did. I went to the parliament, saw some debating, and took in other tourists sites. At least I have some real memories, and not just some drummed up, group contagion, darshan fantasies.

I guess my main point is that it wasn't the 13 year old fraud that ''turned me around'' (what ever that is supposed to mean) but rather, exotic adults, like Rajeswar, who had the real air of authority for me.

When I finally did get around to seeing Fat boy the wonder guru, especially at Millenium, he was such a bore and a simpleton that there was no way I could follow such an obvious put-up and put on. That was pretty much it for me. I didn't even try to meditate much after that and avoided premies like the plague.
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 13:36:26 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Salah
Subject: Never experienced So Much ....
Message:
I for one do no doubt my own experiences. And I don't believe anyone who posted here said that your experiences or those of anyone else, didn't happen. Personally, what I discovered was that the experiences I was having did not have anything to do with Maharaji. They came from me. I, for many years, confused that, and believed they came from Maharaji, but I have discovered that wasn't true. Just like my experiences in meditation didn't have anything to do with him, my experiences in darshan were more based on the hype in my own head that I had about him, not anything about him in particular. That doesn't mean I didn't HAVE the experiences, it just means I understand better now how and why they happened.

People have very profound experiences reading the bible, taking part in all kind of religious rituals and revivals, and in anything that they believe strongly enough in and have faith in. But in my opinion their experience is coming from their strenght of belief and faith and not from whatever the object of the belief is. I think the same is true with Maharaji.

Regarding darshan, like John said, such incredible hype surrounded the whole idea of darshan, and it was set up with this incredible religious significance. I probably had darshan from Maharaji about 30 times. Most of the time I just experienced boredom, and a bit of guilt that it wasn't more profound.

The first couple of times I had darshan I had built it up so much in my own mind from what I had heard from other premies, that I did feel a sort of 'high' as I walked out from having darshan. But I really attribute that to my own very much wanting desperately for it to be profound. I wanted to badly to have the experience everyone had talked about. After that, for the next 8 years or so, nothing much at all happened. Far from looking divine or ethereal, to me Maharaji just looked bored and vaguely pissed off for having to sit fo that long.

You do have a point though. There are very few people in the world who have the kind of background and upbringing that Maharaji had. It is pretty unique to be worshipped as god from such a young age and then to BE considered the incarnation of god at age eight. That would tend to make someone pretty unique. For example, how many people are allowed to speak in front of large crowds at such a young age and receive huge praise for whatever is said. I think that tended to make Maharaji speak with absolute confidence, which is a pretty rare thing to hear for most people. It can appear pretty impressive. And it's also true that he came along in the right place at the right time in the early 70s when there were lot of people attracted to what he was doing. But I think those days are long past.
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 15:56:45 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Salah
Subject: Never experienced So Much ....
Message:
Hey Salah,

You remind me of that song by the Temptations

I'm doing fyyyyyyne...
On cloud nine!


Whatever gets you through the night. Hey, that's another song. Oh, well, do it till you're satisfied, I guess. Oops!

Whatever turns you on. If you're having that great of an experience with Big M and K, fine. I couldn't care less. There was a time when I would be jealous of fools like you. Now, you just strike me as being a moron.
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 16:01:52 (EST)
From: Salah
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Unintelligent gooblieguck
Message:
Listen Jerry...

I am not with K anymore...just be an intelligent guy and read my messages in full....BUT I ALSO DONT HAVE AN AX TO GRIND WITH M...AND I AM TALKING ABOUT MY EXPERIENCES ALONG TIME AGO.....NOT NOW.....WHo is the Moron?

In any case does it mean that anyone who does not agree with you now is a Moron....Kind of a restricted life you have....Do you have many friends?
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 16:11:35 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Salah
Subject: Unintelligent gooblieguck
Message:
Salah,

Do you still meditate? Why do you think you experiences of long ago with darshan was caused by M? Or maybe you don't. How do you account for the fact that others (myself included) felt nothing cosmic around M?

You're very welcome here, of course, but what is your purpose in being here, if you don't mind my asking?
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 17:02:10 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Salah
Subject: Unintelligent gooblieguck
Message:
Do you have many friends?

Actually, no, I don't have very many friends. But the ones I do have are good ones, genuine people who it is my pleasure to know and associate with. I never felt that way about Maharaji and I never had any kind of experience near what you're talking about. Like I said, I used to be envious of people who did. Now it just sounds like bullshit to me, nothing truly desirable. These days, I'm just a simple guy who could use a little love and understanding. You can have the cosmos if that's what turns you on. I don't need them, never did. I only thought I did.
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 16:21:56 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Salah
Subject: Never experienced So Much ....
Message:
Salah: It is truely difficult to be OBJECTIVE about a SUBJECTIVE experience. I seriously doubt that your darshan experiences were even close to mine in nature or fact. So, given this, who's experience was 'right,' mine or yours? NO, I really don't expect an answer, but it does point to the difficulty with respect to being objective about a subjective experience.

Salah, you (as a physicist) and I both know that THERE IS a logical explanation for your experiences. We may not KNOW what the answer is, yet, BUT it will be a logical explanation. The fact that people 4000 years ago didn't have the language (or understanding) to describe DNA, doesn't mean that DNA isn't logical or the explanation of its nature isn't logical. If someone, at that time, had a flash of inspiration concerning the existence of DNA, they wouldn't have been able to logically explain it. Does/did that make DNA illogical? Of course, NOT! Once we have sufficient language to describe the so-called 'cosmic' experiences (scientifically), then there will be a logical explanation. Obviously the 'understanding' of these experiences must occur at the same time as the 'new' language that develops to describe it.

BTW, NO ONE HERE (that I see) denies 'experiences.' They just differ as to the 'source' and explanation of the experience. Soem folks here are athiests. Some folks here are quite religious/spiritual. Of course there are going to be differences of opinion concerning these experiences, but NO ONE is saying that YOU didn't have an experience. Just don't attribute it to BIG M and I think you will be ok!!!
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Date: Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 13:59:52 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Never experienced So Much ....
Message:
Once we have sufficient language to describe the so-called 'cosmic' experiences (scientifically), then there will be a logical explanation.

Mike, the 'cosmic' experience is a subjective one, but the language does exist to adequately describe it, TO OURSELVES. I don't believe I can IMPART my experience to anyone through my DESCRIPTION, but my description of my experience is appropriate for ME. I am not at a loss for words to describe my experience to myself. I don't know if the day will ever come when 'cosmic' experiences can be described, scientifically, where everybody will agree upon a standard definition. I know, for me, it's rare when I identify with somebody else's cosmic experience. In fact, to describe my own spiritual or mystical experience, I wouldn't even use the word cosmic.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 14:11:29 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: One more thing, Mike
Message:
I re-read that statement about paradigms being sufficiently open ended and I have to agree with you. Taken at face value, it does sound like he's suggesting that scientist won't accept a paradigm unless there's enough loopholes in it to keep them busy for awhile. Bizarre.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 15:05:29 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: One more thing, Mike
Message:
Jerry: Thanks.... I wanted to make sure that I wasn't going insane or something.... viz-a-viz the paradigms.... he he he :-)

Jerry, I wasn't picking on your definitions, from a subjective point of view because they are more than adequate to define a personal experience. When Salah said, 'lets be objective,' it offered me the opportunity to say that there is no objective language that fills the bill. Additionally, he said that the 'experience' was beyond logic. I don't agree with that sentiment, either. I think that there definitely IS a logical explanation for these experiences. That doesn't make them any less 'real,' (to the viewer) just logically explainable!

ok, ok, I picking nits..... he he he :-)
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 16:31:51 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Salah
Subject: Never kissing those feet again
Message:
Even if I had the experience of my head being lifted off my body I still wouldn't follow Maharaji because of his greedy ethics. Salah, I gathered from a previous thread that you are a Muslim? Maybe I'm assuming something that's not true? How does GM & his values fit in with your religion (if you are Muslim)? I'm just curious, don't want to get into a religious argument with you

Actually I never had much of an experience with darshan, I've had more profound experiences looking at the sunset or singing or being in church or hiking and looking at the little snowdrops peeping through the ground, or being in gatherings of people who are loving souls
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 16:49:54 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: and don't forget....
Message:
Helen: Being in the company of super-nice conservatives! ;-)
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 19:26:31 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: and don't forget....
Message:
Hey Mike, conservatives are ok with me--(the nice ones). I think part of my intellectual liberation was finding out that many conservatives make a whole lotta sense, & a lot of them are great people. I've actually become more conservative myself in some ways....nuffin' wrong with that--IMO it's called thinking for oneself
(:
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 17:03:32 (EST)
From: Salah
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Never kissing those feet again
Message:
You are right Helen, I am a Muslim, and I have crtiscised M here about the issue of divine incarnation etc cause that is not what I personally believe in.....but u got to give it to the guy...He has some kind of power whatever it is ...or whereever it comes from I dont know....I only know about my exepriences....Yes they are subjective experiences...we all have different subjective exeperiences...as u say the snow drops etc...

I did have powerfull experiences with K and M and I cant rationalise them...there is no set of theories or equations which can put them in a nice piece of paper...hey...that is it...Maybe that is the problem here...we are traying to talk about internal exeperiences ...and we dont have the vocab or the warewithall to descibe these experiences ...

I mean...I do see a Light in my Head...where it comes from I dont know
I do hear this music in meditation....what it is I dont know
I do taste this intoxicating stuff inside...what it is I dont know...

These are experiences that I have had and can still have...

You see it is difficult to relate any o this even to my believe system...that is why I have had to ignore it all these years....It is not the experience but the belief system that I rebelled against

Regards
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 17:14:49 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Salah
Subject: Salah, please read my
Message:
Salah: Post above. In your post you said, 'Maybe that is the problem here...we are traying to talk about internal exeperiences ...and we dont have the vocab or the warewithall to descibe these experiences ...'

This is what I directly addressed just a few minutes ago in my precious post.
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 17:22:33 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: salah
Subject: ooppps!
Message:
Salah; Must have been a freudian slip.... I said, 'in my precious post'.... it should read, 'in my PREVIOUS post.' Sorry about that... I'm not really THAT egotistical! :-)
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 17:25:17 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: ooppps!
Message:
Mike,

I read that at thought it was hilarious! LOL
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 17:41:44 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Egg on face, big time ;) (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 17:22:54 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Salah, please kiss my ass
Message:
Just kidding...

Salah,

You say M must have extraordinary power because of your experience around him.

I say he has no extraordinary power because of my experience around him.

Who is right? It's a totally subjective experience.
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 17:51:24 (EST)
From: Salah
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Mike..Freud..Dog Thing
Message:
Was that the Guy who said someting about this Dog thig....
I realy dont like Psychiatry/Psychoanalysis...it is the disease of our modren age....almost like take a pill and be cured kind of thing...
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 18:31:32 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Salah
Subject: Mike..Freud..Dog Thing
Message:
Salah: No, the dog thing was Pavlov, but I get your drift. :-) Actually, I was apologizing for the typo where I meant to say 'previous' and I ended up saying 'precious' he he he. Not quite the same thing.... ;-)
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 21:06:24 (EST)
From: Salah
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Mike..The Dog that wagged tail
Message:
Sounds like a Zen Koan...
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Date: Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 15:05:21 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Truly prefious
Message:
Personally, Mike, I think your post was prebious... I mean prewious, I mean, you know what I mean. Your predious post was prexious.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 22:05:05 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jerry/Mike
Subject: Truly prefious
Message:
Thash absholutely freshous...hic! Could shomebody buy a poor girl a drinkie-poo, sh'ime getting a little dry...hic!
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 19:39:21 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Salah
Subject: Depth vs. Flash
Message:
Well, in some ways I think it's better to have a belief system and moral structure & religion (if you are a religious person) with which you can evaluate and integrate your real life.

The problem with Maharaji's 'path' is that it is un-integratable with the real world and with intelligent values. In other words, it doesn't have integrity. Whatever we experienced (and hey, I totally believe you that you had a powerful experience that is hard to classify) it really was a passing 'trip' and not anything of real substance, IMO. I guess what I'm trying to say is that an experience is not worth surrendering your life too. To use a really crude example (and forgive me if this offends you in any way), you can have a powerful sexual fling with someone, where you see sparks and feel the earth move, but that someone is not necessarily the best man for the long haul. In fact that person could be a real dog, who you just happen to have good chemistry with at that moment. To me, Maharaji was that one night stand--lots of pyrotechnics but no substance.
Discriminating between superficial spiritual phenomena and real spiritual depth was a big lesson from the whole GM experience.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 03:06:33 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Salah
Subject: Never kissing those feet again
Message:
It is intreresting that your (Muslim) belief system has taken precendence over what toy call your K & M experiences, even though you've probably gotten no 'experiences' from Islam. It shows how a cult can really take a hold...even though there's nothing there.
It is difficult to challenge one's own programming because it feels so real.
It appears from what you have said here on the forum that, in spite of al your experiences with K&M, you never actually made K&M your religion as did many of us here.

All I can say is that I hope you free yourself from both.

Jethro

PS I considered becoming Muslim at one point in my life and I spent alot of time with differenet groups of Muslims. I dound it ironic that the only group that set up a practical system(Ahmadis) were rejected by all the others.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 11:15:55 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Salah
Subject: Never kissing those feet again
Message:
.Maybe that is the problem here...we are traying to talk about internal exeperiences ...and we dont have the vocab or the warewithall to descibe these experiences ...

This is the standard copout when it comes to speaking about spiritual experience, that it's beyond words. It's not. Spiritual experience is an experience of 'coming home'. It's a feeling of infinite love and mercy, of perfect being. It's the experience of being in the presense of God the Father, that He cares for and is always mindful of you. See? All words. All perfect descriptions of spiritual experience, mine at least. I find no difficulty in describing my spiritual experiences, whatsoever, which leads me to suspect that people who do, are full of shit.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 13:55:28 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Not a bad description
Message:
Jerry: That's not a bad description that you gave, but.... It doesn't use words that are meaningful. WAIT! Don't yell, yet... he he he. The terms 'infinite, god, perfect being' aren't very good descriptors for an 'objective' view. Remember, Salah said, 'be objective.' You can't be very objective about such a subjective experience unless there is a new vocabulary for describing it. For example: Instead of saying, 'I felt one with the infinite creator' we need to say, 'the Dimethyltryptamine did a slow drip onto my nerve receptors and caused a skewing of my perception.' Unfortunately, we're babes in this particular research area (IMHO). It's like I told Salah.... there IS a logical explanation, we just don't know what it is yet.... he he he ;-)
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Date: Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 14:54:24 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Now, I got ya'
Message:
Mike, now I understand what you're saying. Right now we're still babes in the woods when describing the mystical experience, scientifically, but progress is being made. In time, I agree, the mystical, or cosmic, experience will probably be a more objective one, and there will be a more realistic means of explaining it that people can agree on.
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 17:57:23 (EST)
From: chr
Email: None
To: Salah
Subject: Never experienced So Much ....
Message:
Hi Salah,
I think you've made some interesting points. It is important to be objective and M and K can't be just pushed aside with simplistic, dismissive cliches.I too had some powerful experiences with M. However, they were not consistent, and they certainly didnt happen in situations where I was with M away from the darshan or program
situation.There were also several times when I was in the darshan room with M doing security.Here again it was a different experience. At the time I believed that the inconsistency of experience in the different situations was due to what M was giving out at the time.I have heard many different explanations, some of them esoteric, some psychological, some that even pertain to the times(70s) and M being used to bring across particular aspects that were needed at the time and he not being aware of how he was being used.I suspect,though that it has more to do with what is sometimes referred to in Jungian pscychology as the projection of the anima.When a mass of people unconsciously project their 'selves' onto a single focus or person , a very powerful energy is created, both for the recipient,and the mass of people involved. There was no doubt that M had a presence and that he wasnt your regular 13 year old.We didnt just follow him because he said he was the perfect master,( I knew a guy who was convinced he was Jesus Christ,and nobody followed him) there was an experience-for whatever reason. My contention with M is that he used these intermittant experiences to program a belief system into us that basically resulted in many of us giving ourselves away to him.By the way I have had experiences since that are as strong-clearer and less emotional,too.
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 18:08:42 (EST)
From: Salah
Email: None
To: chr
Subject: I agrtee with u
Message:
I agree with u
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 21:18:16 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Salah
Subject: Well I don't
Message:
When a mass of people unconsciously project their 'selves' onto a single focus or person , a very powerful energy is created, both for the recipient,and the mass of people involved.

You show me the double-blind study supporting this in the slightest and I'll reconsider. Until then, all that I know about the physical world and peoples' propensity to believe shit tells me that this just isn't true. We're talking totem pole stuff here, really.

There was no doubt that M had a presence and that he wasnt your regular 13 year old.We didnt just follow him because he said he was the perfect master,( I knew a guy who was convinced he was Jesus Christ,and nobody followed him) there was an experience-for whatever reason.

We didn't follow him JUST because he said he was the perfect master. We followed him for that reason and because he had a whole wave of supporting characters, history and what not ready to overwhelm us. I have no doubt that if this 13 year-old kid was sent to live with his cousins in Cincinnati instead of hitting the English hippie circuit with Mahatma Gurucharanand he would NOT have gotten any followers. He'd just be some fat, little Indian kid in the back of the classroom.

What else could happen? His teachers would swoon at the strange, mysterious power he exuded every time he entered the room? Animals would run to his holy lotus feet? He would emit piercing, x-ray glares at schoolyard bullies forcing them to cower before his righteousness?

Once I met this Inidan girl who went to school with him in India. She wasn't a premie and had no spiritual inclinations at all. I asked her how he was at school. You guessed it: absolutely unremarkable.
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 23:56:06 (EST)
From: chr
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Well I don't
Message:
So Jim, you followed M and hung around for years because of what he and his cast of supporting characters said.It had nothing to do with any experience you had? By the way ,I didnt say was M was necessarily special or superior in any way,just that he was not your regular 13 year old.The fact that he wasnt brought up in Cincinnati, but in a household in Dehra Dun with a revered Indian Guru as his father,plus being crowned as god at 8,meant that he couldnt possibly turn out as your regular 13 year old. That he had presence could simply be due to him being used to being in control and getting what he wanted.As far as projection goes,it happens all the time.We project our problems and insecurities onto others,especially partners.We can also project our fantasies,hopes and dreams onto others.Look what happens when we fall in love-that person is often idealised beyond reason.When a mass of people project theirfantasies,love and search for meaning onto one individual it is obviously going to have an effect.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 09:53:24 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: chr
Subject: Are we disagreeing?
Message:
So Jim, you followed M and hung around for years because of what he and his cast of supporting characters said.It had nothing to do with any experience you had?

Well, of course I had an 'experience'. Like when Raja Ji and Claudia came to Ottawa and we tried to serve them a nice meal in our ashram turned private restaurant. I had an 'experience' of their 'presence' I guess you could say. Sure. Can't recall what we did with all the 'Bog Prashad'.

By the way ,I didnt say was M was necessarily special or superior in any way,just that he was not your regular 13 year old.The fact that he wasnt brought up in Cincinnati, but in a household in Dehra Dun with a revered Indian Guru as his father,plus being crowned as god at 8,meant that he couldnt possibly turn out as your regular 13 year old. That he had presence could simply be due to him being used to being in control and getting what he wanted.

Well this is the interesting question for me: did he really internalize anything special from any of that? See, I think that if you took m out of his whole trip at any time, at any age, and sent him to Cincinnati, he wouldn't have any special presence at all. It's not like his special upbringing really developed this powerful personality. No more so than any other Richie Ritch.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 20:37:55 (EST)
From: chr
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Are we disagreeing?
Message:
I think we're basically in agreement here.I'm saying that any 13 year old you placed in the situation M was brought up in,would not turn out as your regular 13 year old.As far as M being taken out of his trip now ,and placed in a suburban house in cincinnatti(or better still, a trailer park in New Mexico) it would be great to do it and see what happens.
By the way, is the talk about M's affairs accurate? I certainly saw on more than one occasion,evidence of the drinking problem,but from my limited experience around him,the one thing he did seem genuine about,apart from an excessive lifestyle, was his family.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 21:03:05 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: chr
Subject: Are we disagreeing?
Message:
chr,

(Have you ever thought of changing your name to something a little more pronounceable?)

All I can say is that his relationship with Monica Lewis in particular appears to be common knowledge to those who know him best. I'm not one of them so I can't really say.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 21:15:49 (EST)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Are we disagreeing?
Message:
Jim,

Now I do remember the name Monica Lewis mentioned on this web-site. I thought it was a 'joke' as it was SO similar to Monika Lewinski. I'm having a little trouble telling truth from ficton here at the moment.
Can anyone enlighten us with TRUE gossip about Monika Lewis. What happened. Who is she? Where is she & what's she doing now? Just call me plain nosey but enquiring minds like mine need to know!
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Date: Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 21:25:01 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: Monica Lewis
Message:
My understanding is that she's m's mistress and has been for a long time. But again that really is just hearsay. Mark? Bill? JM? Maybe these guys can explain more.
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Date: Sat, Jan 23, 1999 at 22:09:31 (EST)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Monica Lewis
Message:
Mark, Bill, JM,

Fill me in, give me the inside scoop on Monica Lewis or is she a figment of someones not so vivid imagination?
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Date: Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 21:05:25 (EST)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: chr
Subject: Are we disagreeing?
Message:
I'm with you chr.

We are interested in the truth here and I have never heard of M having affairs etc. outside of marriage either. Do we have any proof of this? I haven't come across any yet.

Although I expect he has managed to screw up a few (understatement) peoples sex lives with talk of celibacy (by those Mahutmas) in the old days. Hopefully premies can use their own minds these days???
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Date: Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 00:21:35 (EST)
From: Liz Shoe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Well I don't
Message:
Jim, was that just a coincidence that you met M's class-mate?

I gave a video once to a guy who turned out to have been M's lawyer during the late seventies. I had no idea that he knew M already.

I don't imagine he 'felt' anything either as he never folowed it up as far as I know.

I also met a guy who was taken to Prem Nagar back in the late sixties by his Aunty every week - he said it was a bit like being taken to Sunday School, he wasn't interested in the big K. I guess he didn't 'feel' anything either.

Seems unfair that all these people are craving darshan and others who get to be in close proximity don't particularly 'feel' anything.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 10:01:25 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Liz Shoe
Subject: Well I don't
Message:
Jim, was that just a coincidence that you met M's class-mate?

Hi Liz,

Yeah, it was a coincidence alright. Some girl I met at a party. I can't remember what she told me of her own background but I remember she struck me as having come from a wealthy Indian family, wealthy enough to send her to private school of course.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 16:19:20 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Wait, Jim
Message:
Jim: There have been some interesting studies done on the effects of VLF on humans. If I remember correctly, if the human brain receives a signal at 8.7hz, it immediately goes into an ecstatic/meditative state. I don't find this TOO unbelievable for at least one reason: If the total length of our nervous system (miles of fibers) is acting like an antenna, then it may actually resonate at that frequency. Is it 'bad' for you? Who knows! I know that we avoid that frequency for comms, why???? Good question. The fact that we, ourselves, may act as very low power VLF transmitters, is certainly a possibility. This 'might' explain the concept of a group 'high.' Just a thought....
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Date: Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 18:35:42 (EST)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Wait, Jim
Message:
Like that about the nervous system acting as an antenna. Mike what sort of subject area should I look for possible information on this.

Re group high, we also give off different chemicals through smell, dependent on mood.
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Date: Fri, Jan 22, 1999 at 10:14:32 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Hi Ham
Message:
Mike: I've been racking my brain trying to remember where I read this research. It was pretty obscure, but interesting. I just don't remember where I read about it. I haven't tried this, but it might be productive to search around some of the 'trance' sites. If it's been researched, they probably know about it. I'll do a little looking too.

BTW, the fact that 'anything that conducts' can be an antenna is well known to RF engineers. The fact that the nervous system 'conducts' electro-chemical impulses would make it a candidate. That's one of the reasons that the research concerning 8.7hz transmissions caught my eye in the first place.
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 19:44:17 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com
To: chr
Subject: Never experienced So Much ....
Message:
I met Maharaji when he was 15 years old in his back garden in Highgate. Very informal and casual like. He was a fun guy to be around at that time. And I believed that he was the Lord then. I liked him but I must admit, since that time, I never was in such an informal and close situation with him again.

Tonight I got a very high experience just talking with my eldest daughter. I think that we can have 'darshan' from anybody. Hey it's sad if we have to restrict it to just one person who we hardly ever can see, let alone talk with.

Like Jean-Michel says above, these kind of great experiences of love and warmth can come at any time and with anyone. The guy serving in the shop, your friend, lover, anybody!
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 19:47:13 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Never experienced So Much ....
Message:
Thank you Sir D for saying that. I think it was so coo-coo to be so focused on one person when there's a whole world full of wonderful people out there ( and animals too)
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 21:33:10 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Does this help?
Message:
I think that we can have 'darshan' from anybody. Hey it's sad if we have to restrict it to just one person who we hardly ever can see, let alone talk with.

Yes, David, the way I like to think of it, we're ALL perfect masters. There, I feel better already.
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 21:59:33 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Does this help?
Message:
Do I detect a touch of cynicism there, Perfect Master Jim? Look at it another way; starve people of emotional warmth and make their lives a misery by putting stupid restrictions on them in places like ashrams and make them do service to someone who they rarely see.

When they do see him they will project all of their emotional starvation onto HIM because they believe he is the source of their happiness because their life sure isn't happy, he's made sure of that.

Well that's how it used to work for some but it never worked for me. But for some, starved of any real living for months on end, they suddenly saw the perfect one who they believed knew them intimately and completely and knew all their private frustration and loneliness (cause they'd given everything up for him) and then they see him and the tears start coming and the pain is relieved for a bit. That, I'm sure, is what the seeing Maharaji thing was all about.

For me, except that time when I saw him in the garden, and I'd waited all day for him to come out, remembering the word like a good little Hanuman, well that was the only time I really ever got off on Haharaji. ANd it was as much relief as anything else, after waiting all day to see him.

After that time, I used to get bored ridgid or utterly confused by him. Yes, projection seems to be the key to all those darshan experiences. And I did copy your address this time, so it's on its way.
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 22:13:09 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Does this help?
Message:
Yes, Perfect Master Dave, you DO detect a touch of cynicism. I agree with everything and would only add that we should remember how people who spent any extended periods of time around him los tthe buzz pretty easily if they weren't careful to keep themselves pumped.

Marolyn must have wanted something a little more than 'darshan' when she was fucking around, no?

God, sex is such an equalizer when it comes to Lords, Gods, and Perfect Masters. I think it would be repulsive but extremely enlightening to see stolen sex videos of the big teletubby and his favorite devotees having a little fun. Look what happened to Tommy and Pamela Lee when their home movies leaked out? Hardly anyone thinks they're divine anymore.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 07:18:14 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Does this help?
Message:
But what should we call the Haharaji porno video? 'Maharaji does Malibu' 'One Night in the Marble Mansion' 'Erotic Avatar' ???
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Date: Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 10:10:07 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Does this help?
Message:
Hate to go down this road but .....

What do complete meglomaniacs do for fun? How do they 'express themselves' in the bedroom? Oh no! No, I won't let my mind go there! Maharaji! Help!!
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Date: Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 16:13:05 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Perfect master, Sir Dave
Subject: My vote
Message:
Sir: EROTIC AVATAR..... I like it! he he he :-)
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 00:35:15 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: Maharaji, The Responsible
Message:
I received this astounding testimony from Chris Hamerton directed to the Letters To Maharaji page on this site. It's a bit wordy, so I'm posting it here instead. Everyone knows that Maharaji is far too responsible to overlook the Forum posts.

I guess I am writing this more to some of the others who have written in to this website (but if you happen to read this Maharaji, I love you to pieces and my respect for you grows with every breath!)

I feel I can understand the pain that many feel when it seems the only way they can communicate with someone so dear to them is by mail, and it is impossible for that person to reply to everyone. I thought I would share an experience that I had some ten years ago. It was at a program in Adelaide, South Australia. Some premies and aspirants had flown down from Kuala Lumpur, and were sitting in the front row of the hall. My seat was just behind them and to their left. Questions were invited from the audience, and a quite young Malaysian girl sitting in front of Maharaji asked him: 'Maharaji, did you get my letter?'

I have never had what they call a poker face, and on this occasion I know I clearly showed what I was feeling, which was approximately 'O, No! Please don't embarrass Maharaji like this. He gets thousands of letters and he has been travelling constantly. How could he possibly catch up on all his mail!' Maharaji looked at the girl thoughtfully for perhaps a second, then said 'You're the one whose father is a policemen.'

'Yes,' she replied breathlessly, 'And it's a real problem because he doesn't want me to receive Knowledge!'

At that time I had never met Maharaji personally, but in a hall full of hundreds he turned directly to me with great kindness and humour and said 'I'm a responsible person. I read my mail.'

Since then I have been extremely fortunate to have had many delightful, and some poignant, interactions with Maharaji at Amaroo. In this way, and in his videos, he has proved his love a thousand times. From my heart I would like to say: Please, though there are dry patches in all our lives, never doubt the kindness and love that is in Knowledge, and never doubt that the one who most manifests Knowledge knows and loves you, too.

Chris - hamerton@gil.com.au


For those who want to write him, this is the last address we have for him:

Prempal Rawat
31334 Anacapa View Drive
Malibu CA 90264 USA
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 02:49:59 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: prempal
Subject: Maharaji, The Responsible
Message:
'I'm a responsible person. I read my mail.'

It's a pity then that you decided to ignore all the mail sent to you by those premies who took their own lives. You must have wanted them to die.

Here's a message for you prem pal, 'Hashaina raina gipoora', go figure that one out.
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 16:08:52 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Maharaji, The Responsible
Message:
I have been under the impression that Maharaji clears his questions or questioners prior to allowing them. (You can correct me if this is wrong) I assume that Maharaji was briefed on this girl prior to the question or else the whole thing was staged. Looks like it worked, in either case.
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 16:41:47 (EST)
From: KK
Email: None
To: Brian, Chris Hamerton
Subject: Maharaji, The Responsible
Message:
I was personally involved in clearing questions for MJ. He does not read minds. He is prepared for questions. Another piece of urban mythology debunked!
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 19:59:52 (EST)
From: x
Email: None
To: KK
Subject: Maharaji, The Showman
Message:
How totally fraudulent and pathetic a trick is THIS? Big M pretends to know what letter the girl is referring too, like some kind of third rate Vegas magician, but... actually, it's all planned out in advance.
I'm sure the knucklehead premies all ooohhed and aaaahhed appropriately at this proof of their lords omniscience. Man, some people will believe anything!
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Date: Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 22:42:21 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Poor thing
Message:
Biljana, a wheelchair-bound Slovenian premie, posted her 'Day in a Life' on ELK today. Here's how it ends:

I watch Maharaji's videos every day. For me it is very sweet when my heart is touched by his words. Sometimes when I particularly like what Maharaji says I want to remember his words and so I buy the video. For now I have collection of my favourites (about 300) but of those I like those from India the most and today I will watch one.

Dragan thinks that I live like a countess but I know all that matters is the feeling in my heart which is thanks to my master.

When I am tired of typing I connect to 'enjoyinglife.org' It helps in my enjoyment of life. I'm trying to forget about all irrelevant, trivial things and to focus on the one thing where I feel I am loved. And I send my love to Maharaji.


(emphasis mine).

Is this woman saying she's got 300 hundred favorite videos or 300 altogether? So, say she paid $20 for each....
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Date: Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 21:49:19 (EST)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: We weren't the only idiots
Message:
I get these regualry via email 'Darwinisms'

More Evidence That This World Is Full Of Complete Idiots:

1. Police in Wichita, Kansas, arrested a 22-year-old man at an airport
hotel after he tried to pass two (counterfeit) $16 bills.

2. A man in Johannesburg, South Africa, shot his 49-year-old friend in
the face, seriously wounding him, while the two practised shooting
beer cans off each other's head.

3. A company trying to continue its five-year perfect safety record
showed its workers a film aimed at encouraging the use of safety
goggles on the job. According to Industrial Machinery News, the film's
depiction of gory industrial accidents was so graphic that twenty-five
workers suffered minor injuries in their rush to leave the screening
room. Thirteen others fainted, and one man required seven stitches
after he cut his head falling off a chair while watching the film.

4. The Chico, California, City Council enacted a ban on nuclear weapons,
setting a $500 fine for anyone detonating one within city limits.

5. A bus carrying five passengers was hit by a car in St. Louis, but
by the time police arrived on the scene, fourteen pedestrians had
boarded the bus and had begun to complain of whiplash injuries and
back pain.

6. Swedish business consultant Ulf af Trolle laboured 13 years on a
book about Swedish economic solutions. He took the 250-page manuscript
to be copied, only to have it reduced to 50,000 strips of paper in
seconds when a worker confused the copier with the shredder.

7. A convict broke out of jail in Washington DC, then a few days later
accompanied his girlfriend to her trial for robbery. At lunch, he went
out for a sandwich. She needed to see him, and thus had him paged.
Police officers recognized his name and arrested him as he returned to
the courthouse in a car he had stolen over the lunch hour.

8. Police in Radnor, Pennsylvania, interrogated a suspect by placing a
metal colander on his head and connecting it with wires to a photocopy
machine. The message 'He's lying' was placed in the copier, and police
pressed the copy button each time they thought the suspect wasn't
telling the truth. Believing the 'lie detector' was working, the
suspect confessed.

9. When two service station attendants in Ionia, Michigan, refused to
hand over the cash to an intoxicated robber, the man threatened to
call the police. They still refused, so the robber called the police
and was arrested.

10. A Los Angeles man who later said he was 'tired of walking,' stole
a steamroller and led police on a 5 mph chase until an officer stepped
aboard and brought the vehicle to a stop.
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Date: Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 21:58:05 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Ben Lurking
Subject: We weren't the only idiots
Message:
Thanks. Some of these are great. The lie detector, the bus, the gas station and the safety film in particular. Hell, the shredder's pretty good too. Thanks again.
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 21:00:52 (EST)
From: Sir D
Email: None
To: Ben Lurking
Subject: We weren't the only idiots
Message:
Keep 'em coming. I particularly liked the photocopier lie-detector and the steam roller thief.

But the world's full of smart people too. In Birmingham, England, a man who has spent most of his adult life in prison finally bought the prison with his ill gotten gains and turned it into a sausage factory. On being interviewed by the local press in his sausage factory he said, 'I'm glad I did it, I feel at home here.'
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 23:43:35 (EST)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Sir D
Subject: more We ..... idiots
Message:
here is your daily dose

Subj: bear religion

It seems a pastor from Alaska skipped services one Sunday to go bear
hunting in the mountains. As he turned the corner along the path,
he and a bear collided. The pastor stumbled backwards, slipped off
the trail, and began tumbling down the mountain with the bear in hot
pursuit. Finally the pastor crashed into a boulder, sending his
rifle in one direction and breaking both legs.

As the bear closed in, the pastor cried out in desperation, 'Lord,
I'm sorry for what I have done. Please forgive me and save me! Lord,
please make that bear a Christian!!!!'

Suddenly the bear skidded to a halt at the pastor's feet, fell to
its knees, clasped its paws together and said,
'God, bless this food which I am about to receive.'
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Date: Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 15:58:41 (EST)
From: Sam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Ex & Premie Websites
Message:
Most of you are probably more aware of this than I am, but there are now about 7 different websites dealing with Maharaji. My link is not working correctly so I'll just name them off for you: 1. This website, Ex-Premie.org, 2. it's sister website DLM/EV Papers, 3. Premie.org and Premie.com, 4.Maharaji's Homepage@geocities/Tokyo, 5. Enjoyinglife.org, 6. Maharaji.org = rumor has it that #6 is a site under developement by the Big M himself, aka Prim Rawat. A couple of more sites are in development but as yet have no URL. It is estimated that there will be about 8 to 10 websites dealing with M and knowledge before the end of this year, as you can see we now have about 6 or 7, some are pro M and some are anti M. Interesting. Sorry I could'nt provide links but you can find these sites with your search engine.
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Date: Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 16:37:58 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Ex & Premie Websites
Message:
Oh man! We better have meeting. And REAL SOON!
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Date: Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 18:29:00 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Sam
Subject: Ex & Premie Websites
Message:
I think premie.org and premie.com are defunct. The 'tokyo' page is a hysterical satire about Maharaji. I don't know who prepared it, but it had be laughing out loud. I think Maharaji.org is still that seasons greetings thing with the yellow flower and some water in the background.

I just did a search on Alta Vista, and all the ex-premie sites show up, this one at least 5 times, but enjoyinglife does not.
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Date: Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 20:35:22 (EST)
From: Sam
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Ex & Premie Websites
Message:
All the premie sites I've listed are still in operation. Including enjoyinglife.com. I used Snap or NetFind for the search. I just think its interesting how many sites are poping up. I'm curious to see what develops with maharaji.org??????
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Date: Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 20:46:16 (EST)
From: AE
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Ex & Premie Websites
Message:
Glad you like Maharaji's Homepage, Joe. I'm waiting for Maharaji to do some more channeling and with some ore of his pictures, I'll add some more soon.
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Date: Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 21:40:51 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: AE
Subject: new House of Drek site
Message:
Hey, I'm not too shameless to put in a plug for my buddy Roger's website. Poor old Roger needs all the help he can get. In fact, everytime you hit his page he gets 7 cents from the March of Dimes.

Roger's House of Drek is brand new and improved. This website hopes and promises to be the Ripley's Believe It or Not of Maharaji trivia. If you find anything that is not appropriate (no sicko stuff) for the permanent collections at Ex-Premie.Org or the DLM/Elan Vital Papers sites please send it to me at:

click here to email
roger7000@hotmail.com


Visit Roger's House of Drek for the complete Chronicles of the Red Nighty before it becomes available only at Amoeba.com or becomes a movie starring Robert DeNiro, Al Pacino, Brad Pitt, Michael Nouri, Elizabeth Taylor, Gwyneth Paltrow, Juliette Lewis. And starring Dom DeLuise as GMJ and Marlon Brando as the Raja Ji. With special music by Michael Bolton.

click here for Roger's House of Drek
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Date: Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 21:45:46 (EST)
From: Roger
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: Barney - you idiot!
Message:
Barney,

What the hell am I going to do with you when you go around telling everybody that I making money on this website?

Ain't it enough that I let you use it and you get to be in their book?

What about me, man? I've been bankrolling your dumbass since High School just because once you let me copy answers during that English exam on Emily Bronte.

But seriously folks, Roger's House of Drek is always open and always free.

Roger Korman
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 12:40:18 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: AE
Subject: So It Was YOU!
Message:
Well done, AE. As I said, it had me laughing outloud.
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 00:04:39 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Sam
Subject: Premie Org/Com Lives Again
Message:
Sam said the URL was still good, so I checked it out and it's there all right. There are password protected areas, but there's a public chatroom for anyone who wants to use it. Both domain names (.org & .com) take you to the same site.
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 00:54:18 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Brian
Subject: HRC grabs the domain
Message:
Both domains (www.premie.org and www.premie.com) are Harlan Ray Cooley's now, according to whois searches.
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 01:10:23 (EST)
From: Sam
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: HRC grabs the domain
Message:
You know I think M told them it was ok to go back on-line, and I really think that he's developing the maharaji.org site. It was probably your ex-site here that inspired the comeback of pemie.com & .org?
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 15:06:37 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Sam
Subject: HRC grabs the domain
Message:
Actually, it was my advice to M that prompted this wave of internet interest. I figured it was the least I could do for the guy. He seemed to be floundering, I gave him some friendly advice, he recognized the pearl by the side of the road, the rest is history.
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 16:11:43 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Arti Request stuff !
Message:
What is this 'arti request' on the premie.com site?
New version?
Did I goof in mine?
That's IMPORTANT !!

What's gonna happen to my salvation if I have a wrong text, and if I utter the wrong prayer?

heeeeeelp....
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 17:38:38 (EST)
From: gerry again-sorry
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Arti
Message:
Words are extremely powerful. Concepts which are repeated over and over out loud are especially powerful. It doesn't take long. Two weeks is enough. (You can use this to your own benefit, BTW. You literally ''program your mind'' this way.)

Now, imagine being in a group, constantly talking about the same one thing, frequently using the same words. Like singing Arti 2X a day for 8 or 10 years.

Oh, it's not a cult, it's just enjoyinglife.com

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Date: Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 00:00:08 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: Yugoslavian Premie
Message:
I got this from a Yugoslavian premie, and it's his second attempt to contact someone via the site. I sent Mili some email about it after the first request, but haven't heard back. Maybe some of you EV lurkers can help this guy out. English isn't his first language, so cut him some slack.

I was a premie in jugoslavia it was in late 70's en until 1987. i was in italian, en jugoslavian ashrams en then i left because i felt in love with me ex wife . she step out of ashram en we get maryed. but it was not happy mariage our lord did not help us en knowledge to. but after everything i missing time i was premie because i have only memories i was joung end happy. i did not like cult of guru en thet kind of bullschit en i never saw him as god i had lot a fight in ashram with lazy bastards who only meditated en other must cook en work for tham kan you help me to find ex premies from Jjugoslavia?

be happy Zlatko - Zlatko.Obradovic@nl.origin-it.com
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Date: Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 05:37:08 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Looking for Ex-premies
Message:
I think he's looking for ex-premies.
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Date: Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 09:49:06 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Brian
Subject: Yugoslavian Premie
Message:
I hope Zlatko finds some people to be in touch with. I just had to comment on the fact that he had NO trouble with the phrase: lazy bastards, I found that sweet and funny. :)
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 00:11:37 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Robyn
Subject: Try this one
Message:
I have no idea what he's looking for, but he sent this later today and I'm totally lost as to its meaning - unless mijn means my:

you may laugh to me it's healthy but mijn people dont laugh anymore en maharaji wil bring peace on the planet but he forget mijn country. love devotion en surender bullschit en pretender english is not mijn language
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 00:49:22 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Try this one
Message:
Brian,

I think this is a gag letter. Or maybe I'm just full of bullschit.
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 00:51:26 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Try this one--OK
Message:
You may laugh; to me it's healthy. My people don't laugh anymore.
Maharaji said he will bring peace on the planet but he forget my country. Love, devotion and surender is bullshit and pretend. English is not my language.
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 10:00:07 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Gail
Subject: Thanks Gail
Message:
I think you hit nailed that one. You can interpret all my bizarre email for me from now on :)
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 23:52:05 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Thanks Brian
Message:
It comes from years of trying to decipher bullshit. I recognize one word and give the kid a mark. Sometimes you have to read between the lines and hope that your language processor is working. The joys of it all.
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Date: Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 22:25:03 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The first shall be last, etc.
Message:
This weekend I visited my sister who's a couple of years younger than me. One night, after everyone had gone to bed, she, Laurie and I got talking. We got on to the m question.

Julie had received k about a month after I did when she, at 16, was visiting my father and me out in Vancouver. She met a bunch of my friends and joined the pack chasing Mahatma Parlokanand around the area when he came in May, '74. She got k, never practised and, for the love of Pete, struck me as one very lost, weak bag of rotting vegetables. When I wrote that letter to her and my mum imploring them to come to Millenium I was trying to reach right into Julie's soul. After all, m had picked her yet she had shunned his clarion call. For years a I felt a combination of pity, revulsion and anger at her for rejecting the Lord, her Lord.

So why Julie and not me? Or why me and not Julie? She said something very astute the other night, that she had always considered life to be 'hard', 'a struggle'. I understood that. As a teen, she was overweight and, I think it's fair to say, less popular than me (not that I was all that shit hot. I'm just talking about our family dynamic.) Plus, I was older and the better student by far. I just seemed to shine a little more than her. Julie had her 'difficult' years.

So, she figures, she instinctively saw through the dreamy Candyland 60s idealists like me fell for so completely. I'm touched with admiration for my sister for all this.

And me? Well, live and learn, right?
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Date: Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 13:08:48 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: My younger brother
Message:
yes, my younger brother was almost involved too.

he was driving the 40 miles every night to the ashram for satsang and seemed to be into it. Then one weekend he went to visit one of his wilder friends. I knew that such a visit (getting away from the brainwashing machine) would not be good for his spirtual development.

And, lo and behold, he stopped showing up at the ashram and never got knowledge. In retrospect, even before I became an EX-Premie (only recently), I was grateful that he wasn't involved as things got stranger and stranger. However, he almost got sucked into Scientology via a girlfriend. And a few years later he became Born Again. I feel that being Born Again for him was/is far better than the raw sewage that I swam through. He's had a fairly normal, sane life and is married with children and doing ok.

Interesting, how very early on (1973) that I honestly didn't want to sell our little thing (Costra Nostra) to my friends and family. Even though I had beat them to death with bullshit satsang about how Maharaji was the word, BBJ was the light, Bhole Ji was the music, and Raja Ji was the nectar. And, while I didn't write a letter to my friends and family about Millenium, I sure tried to get them there for the most significant event of the century.

However, I did drag a few friends into the damn thing:
  • One woman into the ashram and eventually free.
  • One friend into the periphery, but still going to programs.
  • One friend into a Knowledge session where in pre-selection they grilled him until he cried. Fortunately, the Special K session did not take and he never came back.
  • And one complete stranger at a bus stop that I slammed with sacred and heavy satsang.


I tell ya, sometimes I just wanna jam a screwdriver deep, deep into my ear and destroy the part of my brain that makes me do stupid, embarassing stuff like that. Can you say, insanity?

click here for Roger's House of Drek
for way off topic stuff
Including the Chronicles of the Red Nighty
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Date: Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 13:18:15 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: My younger brother
Message:
I never did any recruiting, as I was always embarrassed by the whole thing, even though I swam in the muck just like everyone else. How sane is that???????????

But the premies now, the ones I am thinking of anyway, are way worse. They have had to completley delude themselves to stay into it. At least we had the excuse of the 70's, the hippie drug culture influence, and all.

Why oh why did you put a link to enjoylife.org on your page barney? I have read some drek there indeed. Managed to avoid that site til today.
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Date: Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 14:31:18 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: Heck, barney....
Message:
You are so honest about the 'beer light' that even 'I' would sing arti to you..... he he he he. Makes me guffaw, everytime I see that picture! :-)
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Date: Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 21:58:27 (EST)
From: barney, er Roger!
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Heck, barney.... (ot)
Message:
Well, Mike, before you sign Arti to me I need to see how you look in my standard premie uniform.

Hmmm, on second thought we should probably exempt you and you can pay the standard exemption fee and we'll let you sing Arti.

Roger.

Yeah, what a fortunate photo that is. I didn't even have anything to do with it other than being there. It wasn't even my Birthday, but my boss lied and said that it was.
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 00:52:46 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: barney, er Roger!
Subject: Heck, barney.... (ot)
Message:
Well, Mike, before you sign Arti to me

Jeez Barn, I didn't know you were blind! Tough luck. How do you manage the computer?
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 04:36:13 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: me and my monkey (ot)
Message:
me and my monkey manage the entire computer operation here
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 01:53:45 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Barney
Subject: My younger brother
Message:
Cheer up, buckwheat! You could have tried recruiting Clinton to join our little cult like Travolta did with Scientology. You're older enough to know better but young enough to do worse (but you won't).
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Date: Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 13:38:05 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The first shall be last, etc.
Message:
Jim, I had a similar discussion with my older brother a few years ago. He and his wife received knowledge a year or so after I did but she only lasted about a year, and he lasted maybe a couple of years. I remember meeting up with them at the Orlando 1975 Hans Jayanti festival.

Anyway, he was older, had been in the army during the Vietnam War, went to college afterwards while married, had kids, and his life was always 'harder' than mine. I found school easy, was pretty successful in what I did and I guess I never had my idealism tempered with a few good knocks of reality like he had. Bob was always getting into trouble and my parents considered him a problem. Life was never easy for him.

So, he said he saw through Maharaji and the cult pretty quickly because he didn't believe in the fairy tale. His wife saw it as bullshit even before he did. But I continued with some kind of 'faith' that by persevering, by trying just a little harder, that the blissful reality would come true.

So, it took me 10 years to realize what it took him 2.
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Date: Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 16:02:06 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: The first shall be last, etc.
Message:
JW & Jim,

I'm not so sure people who received a few knocks in life saw through M more readily than people who had it relatively easy. I don't think I had it so easy and I know the guys who introduced me to K had it pretty rough as well. I don't know what the common denominator of premies is, but I don't think it's easy living.
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Date: Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 18:00:58 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: The first shall be last, etc.
Message:
I agree with you, Jerry. I got into M and K when I was 16, and I basically did it to escape from a weird, uncontrolled life where I would have probably wound up crazy or dead. I feel like I had plenty of hard knocks already, even though I was so young. Plus the whole premie guilt trip felt really familiar and almost comfortable to me (maybe THAT's one of our common denominators). I never really trusted Maharaji though - it's hard for me to trust anyone, even now - and I think that's why I was able to get out of it after only five years.
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Date: Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 20:05:45 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: The first shall be last, etc.
Message:
My brother was trying to explain to me how he and I were different and a possible explanation about why he was better able to see through the cult than I was. He had perhaps a more highly developed 'bullshit detector' than I did. I wouldn't consider it a general rule, but I think people who weren't quite as idealistic perhaps had an advantage in seeing through the nonsense. Maybe because they didn't 'want so bad' for it to be true or didn't expect that it would all turn out in the end.
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Date: Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 20:19:57 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: The first shall be last, etc.
Message:
Hi Joe -
You wrote (re people who left Maharaji early on):
Maybe because they didn't 'want so bad' for it to be true or didn't expect that it would all turn out in the end.

I think in my case I REALLY wanted it to be true, but I didn't expect that it would turn out to be - especially as time went on.
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 12:44:27 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: The first shall be last, etc.
Message:
Right Katie. I think 'wanting it to be true' is probably a characteristic of ALL premies. It's probably the common denominator of anyone who stays involved. But thinking that if you just tried harder, had faith, and hung on, that the perfection of Maharaji would eventually show up, and the length of time it takes one to be dissuaded of that, might be a measure of how idealistic someone is.
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 00:51:44 (EST)
From: ham
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: The first shall be last, etc.
Message:
Interesting hypotheses, but I know for myself that what stopped me becoming an ashramee and getting in really close was that I was TOO idealistic and sensitive. It didn't stop me going for knowledge because I knew a few people who I did believe were having a real connection in meditation, which was enhancing their connection to self, whereas my contact with most ashramers made me suspect they were involved in self-deception.
I would like to say that this reaction was rational, but mostly this perception was because I was way over-sensitive with a strong hint of neuroses. Ironic that my over-sensitivity should be what protected me from the worst organizational excesses.

It did lead to one major problem regarding m. As with all of us, we could only justify the chaos and m's uselessness by resorting to the concept of lila. But for a number of us who were outside of the org having strong meditation experiences, we had to resort to using a second-order lila concept. Not only was there some cosmic lila going on but even within the followers of the one person who could help you see through this lila was a deeper lila, so that very few people actually fully connected or understood. Ashramers were obviously in the ashrams because they needed protecting. The problems this justification caused in terms of spiritual arrogance is frightening, especially when mixed in with strong meditation experiences, and I know a number of people who took the same stance.

How much did we all try to protect ourselves, by protecting our concept of m from m's absolute uselessness.

I do think this justification, and all of our non-rational explanatory stances could not have happened if science had not been so anti-spiritual experiences, by calling them delusional. When you have a whole generation having experiences classed as such, who believe they've contacted something inside of themselves they believe is real, they are inevitably going to go in a non-rational direction and leave themselves open to dangerous conceptual stances. (re LSD experiences) Thankfully science is less defensive about such experiences now, such that the desire and the tools are now there to begin exploring the territory. .
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 19:48:25 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: The first shall be last, etc.
Message:
I know for myself that what stopped me becoming an ashramee and getting in really close was that I was TOO idealistic and sensitive.

I guess there is an issue about what you are idealistic about. I was referring to having the attribute of idealism, and then I assumed that a premie could direct that idealism towards Maharaji. So, if I idealized Maharaji, I trusted him completely and gave my life to him as much as I could. And when my personal experience wasn't very satisfactory, I just tried to use it as an opportunity to trust him more, to diregard my personal desires more, and figured I didn't understand what I needed from him. And there is something very attractive and freeing about that, and it's something I still see in premies -- both the rationalization, and the desire to hold onto it. That's the kind of idealism, in the context of the cult, that I was referring to.

I knew a few people who I did believe were having a real connection in meditation, which was enhancing their connection to self, whereas my contact with most ashramers made me suspect theywere involved in self-deception.

Lets face it -- we were ALL involved in self-deception. You had to be to stay involved. But for me, I think idealism made it easier to do that.

But I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean by this:

It did lead to one major problem regarding m. As with all of us, we could only justify the chaos and m's uselessness by resorting to the concept of lila. But for a number of us who were outside of the org having strong meditation experiences, we had to resort to using a second-order lila concept. Not only was there some cosmic lila going on but even within the followers of the one
person who could help you see through this lila was a deeper lila, so that very few people actually fully connected or understood. Ashramers were obviously in the ashrams because they needed protecting. The problems this justification caused in terms of spiritual arrogance is frightening, especially when mixed in with strong meditation experiences, and I know a number of people who took the same stance.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 04:56:22 (EST)
From: ham
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: The first shall be last, etc.
Message:
'Lets face it -- we were ALL involved in self-deception. You had to be to stay involved. But for me, I think idealism made it easier to do that.'

The self-deception of ashramees that I was referring to here was relating to satsang. Except for a very short period around the time I 'got' k, the only contact I had with anything official was at satsang. At satsang it was painfully obvious that people were being dis-honest to a large degree. My idealism related to knowlege, gm was very much secondary.
Satsang, I took to be, should be literally, the company of truth. The company of truth I took to be emotional honesty as the underlying core, if it meant anything. Most ashram based satsangs left me feeling very sad, emotionally distraught and I could not understand why, if people were having this experience the same as me, they were playing power games, lying and trying to project what 'should' be said, rather than an honest description of their realities. In community satsangs, which could be very dour and depressing for other reasons, at least people tended to be more honest about their experiences, even if in the majority of instances they were describing their lack of experiences and the difficulties they were having with living.
The one period that I exempt from this description was 76-77 when suddenly everyone started to talk honestly. I loved that period. But the fact that it lasted for such a short period of time, and obviously was stopped by gm not the premies, started to make me doubt his intentions or abilities. Before then I thought he was just shy & naive on one level and completely absolved him of responsibility for all the crazyness.

't did lead to one major problem regarding m. As with all of us, we could only justify the chaos and m's uselessness by resorting to the concept of lila. But for a number of us who were outside of the org having strong meditation experiences, we had to resort to using a second-order lila concept. Not only was there some cosmic
lila going on but even within the followers of the one person who could help you see through this lila was a deeper lila, so that very few people actually fully connected or understood. Ashramers were obviously in the ashrams because they needed protecting. The
problems this justification caused in terms of spiritual arrogance is frightening, especially when mixed in with strong meditation experiences, and I know a number of people who took the same stance.'

I assumed everyone involved saw this whole planet as a sick joke. If there was a god, a concept I always had difficulties grasping, or if there was any kind of consciousness in some cosmic ground, it could only allow the continual suffering of the human race throughout all history because there was something that took precedence over suffering, however hard I found this.
But the biggest black joke for me was that the one person who probably had an answer/solution to this was running something that was producing farcical results. And the closer those people were to that person the more fucked up they appeared to be. Yet here I was having at last found a way to access the experiences and feeling of connectedness to a love that was irrestible through meditating, that I had experienced on acid, and had been searching for for over three years. So I saw the claims for k that gm was making as justified, even though everything around gm appeared to negate this. I had spoken to followers of a number of gurus, had checked out different psych routes and nobody convinced me that they were having experiences naturally at the same level I'd had on acid. I had met a few people, not many but a few, who had knowledge, that their experiences were at the same level as that I was looking for.
The only way I could rationalize it was that the org existed as a place of protection for people unable to cope in the real world, and that was why gm had set them up. The organizational chaos I rationalized by thinking that it was an irrelevance in some greater long-term lila, the purpose of which I had no understanding of. Obviously people were not experiencing knowledge, so they were not ready for that experience yet. That is where the spiritual arrogance manifested for me. But this was no different an attitude than a lot of people around acid-taking grateful dead followers had already reached long before gm turned up.
That was why the rumours spread about everyone who was at the '71 glastonbury festival. GM gave satsang at the festival to the core group of british acid head hippies. After 'receiving' knowledge I was told the rumour that everyone who was there was supposedly going to receive knowledge, and they were like some form of divine illuminati, which is how we were able to stay in meditation when gm was giving satsang and would only hear the higher level message behind the main message. Not difficult really because over a period of time gm would cover just about any spiritual viewpoint and angle, many of which were quite often in conflict. The only way I could see to deal with that was by letting my own feelings guide me through to those bits I was supposed to be hearing.

Thanks for pulling this out of me & aplogies for it being so long. Think it is the first time I've ever verbalized it to anyone who did not see things in a similar way. I hope also that my comments are not seen as an attack on ex-ashramees. I dfo not blame them in the least now, think we know who I feel is responsible for the whole house of cards. Everyones route in was very different. That is one of the reasons I've been astonished by the background details and the understanding of the reasons and pressures why people were the way they were then. When you see the quality of the people here, and know that the people I had problems back then with were from similar backgrounds there is only one door that bears responsibility for all the damage.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 14:33:44 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: The first shall be last, etc.
Message:
ham,

Thanks for your explanation. I just woundered about a couple of your comments.

Except for a very short period around the time I 'got' k, the only contact I had with anything official was at satsang

What about service ham? I understood that Guru Maharaj Ji said it was an integral part of knowledge that that in fact you couldn't really have the experience of knowledge unless you had all three legs of the stool. Did you just feel you didn't need to do service?

At satsang it was painfully obvious that people were being dis-honest to a large degree. My idealism related to knowlege, gm was very much secondary. Satsang, I took to be, should be literally, the company of truth. The company of truth I took to be emotional honesty as the underlying core, if it meant anything.

Probably true that there was a lot of dishonesty in satsang, or at least a lot of saying what was 'supposed' to be said, rather than the reality of what was really happening. That's because satsang in the cult-world isn't about some kind of public confession or emotional release. It was about programming -- it was about repeating over and over and over the basic principles of the dogma we had accepted to varying degrees. Now, that's done in videos and at programs rather than in community satsang, but it fulfills the same purpose.

I really liked satsang, most of the time. What I really HATED in satsang was when people said they were miserable, not having any experience, were prey to their minds, etc. I really hated hearing that, because I just wanted to hear about how wonderful it all was, how lucky we were, and how great Maharaji was, etc. There was a kind of high that came from that, and it reassured me that I was involved in something worthwhile, important and real. Plus, I was believing that whatever happened was Maharaji's grace anyway, and what was said was what I needed to hear, whether I understood it or not. Maybe it was different in Britain, but I recall, at least until about 1981 or so, that satsang in the states was a pretty joyful occasion. At least I usually liked it.

In the early years, I also focused more on knowledge than Maharaji, but after 1977 that became impossible because Guru Maharaj Ji began saying in no uncertain terms that this path was not about knowledge, it as about DEVOTION and devotion to Maharaji was all that mattered. Knowledge was really secondary. Again, I believed that if I accepted Maharaji and attempted to surrender to him, I accepted anything he did or said as some part of a perfect plan that I didn't understand, and made little attempt to do so. We were just dust at his feet, after all.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 20:36:34 (EST)
From: ham
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: The first shall be last, etc.
Message:
Thanks for that JW. Amazing isn't it that I know we could both find justificatory texts from gm to reflect our differing positions.
Service was very important for me, it was about a zen attitude to the moment, through actions. Some of that went back to my mums buddhist attitude toward doing activities with concentration and heart, but mainly that attitude came from acid. I was trying, without driving myself completely crazy, (which I reckoned would be counter productive), to be as close to that state as posible in everything I did.. I never had problems finding satsang from gm that covered that angle, he just didn't do it anywhere near as much. I saw that attitude as being the inevitable result of accessing a state of pure love/devotion, from the connection of satsang service & meditation.
DUO was set up supposedly to do actions in exactly that spirit, but that didn't even warm-up, so keen was he on his own luxuries and so un-interested in the concept behind DUO's supposed raison d'etre.
If there was a god that god had to be the most important, not guru, because god would be the source of your life, whereas if gm died he would be replaced by another perfect master. So service was done as though it was dedicated to that universal connectedness and love, whatever name you gave it.
I started distancing myself further when the devotional phase started in '77.
By '77 meditation had become a self-generating explanatory source for me. Remember how he always talks about finding the answers inside of yourself, amongst other contradictory positions.
A completely different level of connectedness came when I managed to get on a roll of doing actions with a certain focus. A recognizable meta-jump, that would bring with it a glorious feeling.

Re satsang, I wasn't expecting emotional outpourings but honest reflections upon internal experiences, which was never going to happen. But if it had been for real, the whole superstructure would have supported that way, or something close to. Just another example of gm's fraudulence.
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Date: Fri, Jan 22, 1999 at 13:31:44 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: The first shall be last, etc.
Message:
Service was very important for me, it was about a zen attitude to the moment, through actions.

I used to think that too, until Maharaji again said aroun 1977 or so, in no uncertain terms, that unless the service was to Guru Maharaj Ji, unless it was directly related to serving him, it wasn't service. This went in line with killing the whole idea that helping others, the world, humanity, etc., was serivce, and actually he said things that implied it was a pretty worthless endeavor, and he also was openly disdainful of people who had those kind of goals.

True, Maharaji's megalomania demonstrated in the period beginning in 1977 is probably the worst of the sins he has to atone for and for which he should be condemned most.

It was awfully blatant that he was riding his supposed divinity during that period, and taking all the material benefits of that as well. I also had a harder time during that period, but by 1977 I was so committed to Maharaji, so wanting to accept and surrender to him, that to a great degree I lost the ability to look at any of it objectively. This is also the period that I think Maharaji wants most to hide from the premies and the world. I don't think he has any way to explain it away, so he just tries to pretend it didn't happen, and unfortunately many premies are complicit in that. In my opinion, one of the most important things this website can do, it to keep people informed of what Maharaji really did during that period.
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 12:18:49 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: The first shall be last, etc.
Message:
Katie & JW,

JW, I agree with you that my idealism probably played a major part in accepting Maharaji. I was much more idealistic, and religious, too, I might add, than my peers. But to put a finger on what really drove me to Maharaji, I can't say. I believe it stems from some subconscious motivation that I might never know. I believe that what motivates me usually is on a subconscious level. If I could get in touch with that, I'm sure a lot of questions would be answered and I'd learn a lot more about myself. One thing I know I liked about Maharaji is that he was educated in a Catholic grammar school. So was I. And of course there was the intrigue that this Knowledge was taught by Jesus. The idea that Maharaji might be the living Christ was something I didn't want to pass up.

Katie, I wouldn't say that Maharaji made me feel guilty. He did make me feel inadequate and 'less than' because of my lack of experience with Knowledge. Is this what you mean by guilt? Interestingly, I never once attributed my lack of experience to M & K, but to my own shortcomings. Self esteem has never been one of my high points.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 21, 1999 at 23:16:52 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: The first shall be last, etc.
Message:
Hi Jerry -
You wrote:
Katie, I wouldn't say that Maharaji made me feel guilty. He did make me feel inadequate and 'less than' because of my lack of experience with Knowledge. Is this what you mean by guilt? Interestingly, I never once attributed my lack of experience to M & K, but to my own shortcomings. Self esteem has never been one of my high points.

Self-esteem is not one of my strong points either, and I certainly didn't have much self-esteem when I was following Maharaji. I also felt inadequate and 'less than' because I didn't experience much, if anything, from practicing Knowledge (I'm talking about meditation, service, and satsang, which were all supposed to be necessary). I think I felt guilty, not just inadequate, because I felt that if I only would do MORE: meditate more hours, concentrate more on meditation, do more service, give and hear more satsang, be more devoted, so on and so forth - then I WOULD be experiencing something. It seemed as if I never could do enough, no matter what.

Remember 'effort and grace'? I always felt like I wasn't making enough effort - no matter how much I did. In retrospect, I think this was a tremendous burden - I remember feeling like a huge weight had been lifted off of me when I decided to stop following Maharaji.
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Date: Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 22:09:33 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: The God Part of the Brain
Message:
Maybe you've all discussed this already and picked it completely apart. I, of course, haven't read the book or anything, but only heard the guy on Art Bell the other night.

Matthew Alper
Book: The God Part of The Brain
Website: www.godpart.com


I wasn't even really paying attention (the usual case for Art Bell), but I thought that it sounded relatively reasonable.

One of the things he did say was that people who had a propensity to get into cults via brainwashing were typically young people who had recently gone through some kind of recent headtrip and had had a poor relationship with their father.

I believe that he said that after a period of about two weeks the brainwashing would take hold within the brain.

And, of course, all the experience of God that people had were some chemical thing in their old pumpkinhaid!
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Date: Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 19:06:42 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Passivity Through Boredom
Message:
Most of us sat for probably thousands of hours and listened to numbingly boring satsang by Maharaji, initiators and other premies. Do you think that was all part of Maharaji's game plan -- to bore us into submission?

I thought of this the other day, as I listened to the Republican 'impeachment trail managers' cite the same evidence against Clinton over and over and over again. Were many people electrified by constantly repeated high-flown verbiage like 'perjurious,' 'egregious' and 'web of deceit?' Do you think a lot of people snapped their fingers and said, 'I get it now. He's a liar. It isn't about sex. It's about perjury.'

I just have to think that what they are trying to do is to overthrow a president by boring the population into passivity -- to keep them out of politics, leaving democracy in the hands of reliable fanatics, advertising geniuses and rich special interests.

But the award so far as to go to Congressman Bob Barr from Georgia. He's the guy who speaks before that white supremecist group, 'The Conservative Citizens Council,' and the little hypocrite also says abortion is murder, although he paid for his wife to have one, at the same time he was having an affair with another woman. Bob Barr wins the award for the worst disease metaphor when he called the Senate to excise:

'insidious cancers that eat at the heart of our system of justice so they might not fester as a gaping wound, poisoning our system of justice and future generations.'

Like I saw a columnist suggest, he ought to have his head cut off along with the pointy white hat he probably wears on it.
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Date: Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 19:17:29 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Passivity Through Boredom
Message:
That stuff about Barr makes me sick. It is ALWAYS that way. They fight a war on drugs while supplying the major suppliers.
They promote Right To Life while making exceptions. But I AM curious how you learned about those exceptions in Barr's case?
(not doubting you but it is interesting tosay the least)

It will most likely always be that way. I am not sure we can do anything more than recognize it and show that we do by voting.
I hope it makes a difference.

RE: M and a plan. I doubt the little weasel ever had a plan full scale in place. Maybe now as he desperately strives for the lifestyle to continue he is working with strategy. But not before.

I think the final 'drip' for me as far as educating myself with forum was when someone (you?) pointed out how off from specs the plane was after it was built, gold toilet seats and all.
That is way out there.
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Date: Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 21:03:43 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Passivity Through Boredom
Message:
They fight a war on drugs while supplying the major suppliers.

This is SO true. And Clinton is one of the WORST offenders. He protected the Mena, Arkansas airport cocaine smuggling operation of his buddie Don Lasater for years. Clinton and brother Roger and Lasater used to get together frequently to snort cocaine and fuck whores under the protection of the Arkansas state police.
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Date: Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 19:26:23 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Our take on Clinton
Message:
Okay, I know you've all been waiting. Here, at last, is Jim and Laurie's definitive take on the Clinton scandal:

Clinton lied and perjured himself. That's bad. But how bad? The only reasonable measure would be in comparing him to any other U.S. president. Did any of them ever do something like this before? Republicans and other Clinton-haters are quick to say no. The problem, of course, is that no other U.S. president has ever been forced to testify under oath about his personal sex life, let alone extra-marital matters.

If JFK, for instance, had been asked under oath about Marilyn Monroe what would he have said? Does anyone really know? How about Ike? Would he have told all about that military liason officer he was screwing around with? Can anyone say?

And say, for argument's sake, tha Clinton did indeed lie (of course he did) AND perjure himself (that too.) Does that really mean he 'can't be trusted' on anything? No, of course not. It only means that the guy's honesty has its limits. Ask him something personal and potentially embarrasing enough and honesty takes a back seat to self-preservation. So? What other lawmaker can honestly say he wouldn't do the same if he thought he could get a way with it?

The real problem here is the STUPID decision by the U.S. Supreme Court to allow the Paula Jones case to proceed while Clinton was in office. That was the problem. That set up a character litmus test that was extremely mischievous, if not downright cynical, for Clinton. And now Rhenquist gets to wear his home-made superman costume.

What would history say if he's allowed to skate past this? You jsut have to ask if Kennedy had been squeezed in just this way and if he, too, had not played the part out like a perfect boy scout, would the country have been better off if he'd been kicked out of office. The answer: of course not.
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Date: Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 20:54:26 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: My take on Clinton
Message:
I think this whole sex/perjury thing is merely a facade to get the guy out of office with the least amount of damage to his cohorts in big business and government. The charges he faces pale in comparison to the real crimes this loose cannon president has committed. He is with out a doubt the greatest danger to our country and its democratic principles ever. I'm prepared to back this up.

I fully agree with those who say the existing charges do not rise to the level of high crimes or misdemeanors. It's the things that they are not even talking about that make him so dangerous. If this petty ass bullshit about what he does with his dick is what it take to get him out of office, I'm all for it, though.

The guy is immeasureably evil and a true threat to our democracy.
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Date: Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 21:16:09 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: My take on Clinton
Message:
Politics scare me because I know I don't know what is happening. not really.

sigh
I dont' know any of this info as you seem to gerry.
I long for Mr. History to help me out, in the thread down below.
You know.
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Date: Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 21:36:43 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: My take on Clinton
Message:
He is with out a doubt the greatest danger to our country and its democratic principles ever. I'm prepared to back this up.
I fully agree with those who say the existing charges do not rise to the level of high crimes or misdemeanors. It's the things that they are not even talking about that make him so dangerous. If this petty ass bullshit about what he does with his dick is what it take to get him out of office, I'm all for it, though.

The guy is immeasureably evil and a true threat to our democracy.


Are we trying to be funny? No? Okay, back it up.
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Date: Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 21:41:51 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: My take on Clinton
Message:
Are we trying to be funny? No? Okay, back it up.

Thanks Jim. As much as I do admit my ignorance it did strike me as odd for someone to attest That much evil to the poor good ole boy.

He is not alone. and not the worst. He just got caught. I guess this means extra marital sex is a crime.

I don't condone it and wouldn't do it but I would be pissed as hell if some snoop at work caught on and used it as ammunition to strike out at me for some other agenda.

God I hate taking a stand but I have to this time.
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Date: Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 12:25:04 (EST)
From: RT
Email: omm
To: Jim and all.
Subject: Clinton on the take
Message:
One list to comtemplate is the 38 deaths of people associated with Clinton over the years since Arkansas. I saw it in Mother Jones magazine 3 months ago. Mysterious deaths, suicides, unexplained murders. 38. That's the sad history he brings to America.

Chief Lawmaker of the USA...

'Holy Family.'

RT
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Date: Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 01:28:19 (EST)
From: red
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: My take on Clinton
Message:
from a distance here in australia a majority of folks can't understand what the fuss is about .Nobody gives a stuff about politicians sex lives media included.It's been great entertainment.I wouldn't call the US a democracy,that's a bit rich.
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Date: Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 11:35:23 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: red
Subject: My take on Clinton
Message:
I wouldn't call the US a democracy,that's a bit rich.

Why do you say that?
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Date: Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 01:28:06 (EST)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: democracy
Message:
A choice between the democrats and the republicans is democracy?
That's apart from the money issue.
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Date: Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 01:43:44 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Clinton stuff
Message:
Common right wings spin lines about the Big C
-may have killed Vince Foster
-intimidates people who know things about him
-has used his position and security staff to womanize and then cover it up

Most documented stuff I heard was he fought to keep an airbase open that dealt in Contra contraband (for the money).

I like him ok.
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Date: Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 03:20:09 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Clinton & JFK stuff
Message:
I know this is off the point but there are parallels between Clinton and JFK. Some people think that Marilyn Monroe was murdered with the help of Robert Kennedy and with the approval of JFK. The reason given is that Marilyn knew too much about the president and was a danger, woman scorned and all that.

Personally I wouldn't be surprised if the above really did happen but also I realise that it could be a rumour. Also at the time of JFK, some people were saying that he was the worst president in history especially after the Bay of Pigs but of course, after he was shot (by the Mafia working with the CIA??) everybody said what a saviour he had been.

There's always two extremely different opinions and stories about everything and there's always some people to adhere to one or the other. Finding the real truth about events is very difficult especially when there's two opposing sides shouting their stories from the rooftops. But that's politics.

Over here, Clinton was seen as a bumbling country boy when he first came to office but now is reckognised as a most astute politician. Everyone knew about JFKs womanising and nobody cared a damn. Similarly with Clinton except now the Republicans are using his inapropriate relationships to try to oust him and gain the presidency. Such a trick will probably fall flat because everyone can see it for what it is. If they don't have something with some real meat on to hit the president with, they should shut up and go home because they're making a laughing stock of the USA.
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Date: Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 03:42:22 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Clinton & JFK stuff
Message:
Feels like they're trying to bust him for sex too, and not necessarily a whole lot of it. What do they have? One blowjob and a bunch of foreplay?
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Date: Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 04:40:17 (EST)
From: Sam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Clinton Should Know Better
Message:
Enjoyed reading the previous views on Clinton. Just about everything these days is political, and politics is and extension of violence as war is and extension of diplomacy. This is a quote from the House Democrate Minority Leader Gephart. In many other countries Clinton would have been forceably overthrown and possibly killed by now. No, I don't think that his indiscretions raise to the level of impeachment, and definitely not to his being thrown out of office. But this is politics, and politics is civilized violence. You try to do harm to your opponent. It has nothing to do with whether he deserves it or not. The republicans smell blood and they're going in for the kill. They should understand that this will set the tone for future battles. When diplomacy does not work nations usually go to war, and when politics don't work people usually turn to violence. There are exceptions but generally speaking most human beings are political, even those who say they are not. Maharaji is definitely a political animal, even though he says he does'nt care for politics, he takes opposing views and has a definite stance. I really don't expect fairness in Clinton's Senate trial, after all it's not about lying, etc. it's about party politics. Even welfare reform was about politics, or issues on the homeless, drugs, caring for the elderly, etc. these have all become political issues with very strong views on both sides. Views that people are willing to kill or die for, like bombing abortion clinics, etc. I strongly believe that the way Clinton is being handled will come back to haunt the republicans. But nonetheless Clinton Shoud have known better. There were people,like the Christian Right, just waiting to put a nail in his coffin. He did'nt have to do anything real bad, although he could have handled this situation allot better.
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Date: Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 05:51:30 (EST)
From: Sam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Prim Rawat's Politics
Message:
So I had something more to say on the topic of politics. Think about it; Many religons, past guru's and the like, declared war on anyone who opposed their view. The Christian Crusades of past times, and today we have Christians and Muslims fighting in Bosnia. In Ireland Catholics and Protestants, Jews and Muslims in the middle east. Hindu's and Muslims in India, and the Budhist being run out of Tibet by China. I don't think Prim Rawat will resort to overt violence, but he does use political strategies to fulfill his agenda. The practice of open-mindedness,or empathy as it is sometimes called, requires seeing another persons point of view objectively and with unconditional positive regard. People with strong political views are incapable of doing this. Their view is usually win at all costs. The indocrination of Prim Rawat is a political process that requires passive obedience and repititous dogmatic dictation. In his politics you are always wrong and only he knows what's good for you. Even Hitler sometimes got suggestions from, and listened to, his subordinates. And that was a facist system. It is one political process when a person calls themselves a master, it is another political process when they say they are The Master or your master.
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Date: Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 12:57:59 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Sam
Subject: Prim Rawat's Politics
Message:
Sam, very interesting analysis. I think there has always been a aversion to speak of Maharaji in political terms, like the way you describe what he does as a system that requires 'passive obedience' and 'repititious dogmatic dictation.'

What I like about that analysis is that it wipes away the 'spiritual' aura and brings what he does down to earth. And Maharaji just presents a dogma in which his followers subvert their own best interests for his.
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Date: Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 16:16:33 (EST)
From: Sam
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Prim Rawat's Politics
Message:
I agree. The 'spiritual master' mask and the experience trap blinds those involved to the political manipulations that take place. The knowledge experience is so subjective that the process is never really analyzed nor put in an objective view.
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Date: Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 18:01:40 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Wish I had a transcript
Message:
ELK has just published another sanforized memoire, this one by Mahatma Sampuranand. Some highlights include Sampuranand describing the young, fat grub, only 3 years old then, explaining the secrets of life:

'Sampuranand,' Sant Ji replied with a child's lisp. Then Shri Maharaj Ji asked him to give me 'satsang' (see glossary) which he did for about 45 minutes.

and how Maharaji became Lord of the Universe as a spontaneous expression of feeling by the emotional crowd at his fahter's funeral:

'Here is my understanding about a master,' Sampuranand explained to us. 'Although human bodies come from a mother's womb, the power of the master does not. A person is born with that. If two masters exist at one time, one will just stay in the background and just move up when the other departs. It is natural. Recognising the master is not something that can be understood with the mind, but comes from a real feeling.'

What happened was this. Basically, from the fourth day after Shri Maharaj Ji died, to the thirteenth, Sant Ji spent much of his time with me. During those 10 days, Sant Ji expressed to me with remarkable understanding and perspective how he was going to take Knowledge to the rest of the world. For a boy who was only eight years old, this was truly extraordinary.

On the thirteenth day after Shri Maharaj Ji's death, by tradition, people from all over India were expected to come to pay their final respects and to discover who was going to be the next master. On 30 July, the night before this event, I decided that the first thing I would do the next morning would be to accept Sant Ji as my master. So I arranged for a garland and a chair and whatever else was required to be brought to a small room.

But when the next day came, Sant Ji and I started playing together as usual. I began having so much fun that I forgot about the preparations I had made the night before. Soon our play took us into that very room and much to my surprise he asked me what was in the cabinet where I had put the garland. Then and there, all alone with him, I garlanded him and accepted him as my master.

Meanwhile, about 12,000 people were sitting outside on the event grounds. Many were crying over the passing of Shri Maharaj Ji. Once or twice Sant Ji would go to the stage and speak to console them. He asked them why they were crying and told them that what they had really loved in Shri Maharaj Ji would never die. Everyone felt uplifted and there was an acceptance of what seemed obvious, that Sant Ji was embodying that same thing that they had been loving and respecting.

After some time, Mata Ji, Maharaji's mother, and the others came out and took their places on stage Mata Ji told a mahatma named Charan Anand to speak. But when he started to speak, he found that the PA system had failed. So he turned to Mata Ji and said: 'It's a huge crowd and my voice is not strong enough to reach everybody.' When Mata Ji asked who else could do it, Charan Anand replied: 'Sampuranand.'

I didn't know what to say, so I just sat there. Then I looked over at Sant Ji and he signalled me and said: 'Yes, go ahead.' Then, without knowing what I would say, I started reminding the people about how Sant Ji had been speaking about Knowledge in public since his earliest childhood and that only he amongst the family members had ever come onto Shri Maharaji's stage and had even sat in his chair before him, while addressing audiences. I also spoke about the letter in which Shri Maharaj Ji had sent his 'pranams' to Sant Ji.

'Besides all this,' I said, 'look into your hearts to see how you feel.' Everyone rose up and shouted an overwhelming acceptance of Sant Ji as their new master.

Not long after, everyone sang 'arti', (see glossary), to Sant Ji and he was officially garlanded. Mata Ji and the three older brothers showed their acceptance of Sant Ji as their master by doing pranam. There was an overwhelming feeling of joy as everyone accepted that Sant Ji was now the new master.

Interesting that Sampuranand, unlike the hamster himself, thinks that it's possible for more than one master to co-exist. Oh who the fuck cares? We might as well be talking about the maximum weight of leprachauns or the average life span of trolls.
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Date: Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 19:12:11 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Wish I had a transcript
Message:
I don't remember Sampuranand being in the States. Wasn't he primarily in Britain?

I think his account is weird for another sense. It's almost like Sampuranand was saying there was some kind of a democratic process in selecting the next perfect master. If the premies accepted M as 'the master', like Sampuranand had already done, he would BE the master.

This is really different from the story about how M transformed on the stage into the perfect master. And just announced that that was who he was. Sampuranand makes it sound like it was the other way around, that the premies selected the master.

Perhaps this is the 'new' story?
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Date: Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 19:49:39 (EST)
From: chr
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Wish I had a transcript
Message:
I'm surprised Sampuranand is still alive,judging by how he looked a couple of decades ago. Was it only Gurucharananand,Jagdeo ,Padarthananad and Sampuranand, of the original mahatmas who came to the west, who survived the family split? Krishnasukanand had a problem with the ladies, but maybe that was before the split.What happened to Rajeswar?
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Date: Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 00:46:57 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: chr
Subject: ok
Message:
rajeshwar was touring africa and while in soulth africa
got a call to come to india that his wife was sick.
Mr rawat made a comment about how he choose his family and
so he was instructed to stay with his family.
He felt tortured and like he made the huge mistake and little
rawat left him way out on the limb like that for years.
Many years. Rajeshar became a judge (again?) and worked
and eventually made it to Rome 77 or some later program
like hans jayanti 78/79.
As an occasional western visitor when ever mr rawat allowed it.
He is an instructor again although I dont think that means
giving people techniques.

Bhahari got the same penalty, worse, when bahari went to india
to try to get the family to come together again, mata ji
took his passport and destroyed it. He said later that
bal bhagwan ji was crazy, but he DID kiss his feet while he
sponged off the prem nagar scene during that era.
HE said that mata ji had him at events and that she would say
things about prem rawat that weren't completely accurate and
he said once, that what you said is not true, and she said,
according to him, 'I know' and then she said something about
lila. The rawat clan could never back down from thier
own perfection and always had an answer to cover thier
actions with some 'beyond YOU' spiritual response.

Of couse little rawat and charanand never told the tale
sampuranand told.
I will have to dig out some of the lords tellings of that tale.
Includeing his latest version from the 25/30 anniverary
events.
The version in -and it is divine-from millenium is also different.
what in the world does -and it is divine- mean?
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Date: Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 01:57:23 (EST)
From: chr
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: ok
Message:
Thanks-now that you've said it ,I do remember about Rajeswar.I saw bihari(spelling?) at HJ 78. Jamie was put in with him.There was all this talk about how Bihari had been a murderer before coming to Shri Hans. I guess M figured they deserved each other.
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Date: Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 19:34:51 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Recognizing the master
Message:
Recognising the master is not something that can be understood with the mind, but comes from a real feeling.'

What interests me about this belief is, how many people recognize the master without first having him pointed out to them? How many people actually realized Maharaji was a master before they were told he was? Finally, how many of us believe it when we're first told that he is? Don't we all hesitate, doubtful that this is so? How many people's hearts just burst with joy upon first hearing that Maharaji was here? Not mine. I had to be convinced by endless hours of brainwashing, er, satsang, that the Perfect Master Of The Age had cometh. Even then, I doubted it until I received Knowledge, and I still continued to doubt it even AFTER that. So what's this bullshit about recognizing the master by what we feel? I never felt any such thing. Who did?
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Date: Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 17:17:24 (EST)
From: Interesting
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Meditation Techniques
Message:
I've been reading this site for sometime now and find it very interesting. Can someone tell me where I might find the 'knowledge' meditation techniques on this site. It was stated that they were in your 'Nuts and Bolts' section but I was unable to find them there? Thanks.
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Date: Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 17:31:20 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Interesting
Subject: Meditation Techniques
Message:
Hi:

See:

1) Nuts and Bolts ... Aspirant Process: Step 5 Knowledge Session
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Date: Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 17:40:40 (EST)
From: Interesting
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Meditation Techniques
Message:
Thank you very much for your help, I printed copies of the pages from 'knowledge Session Step 5' but someone told me that there were pictures showing the techniques on this website? Would be neat if there was a small paper-back book out there somewhere showing these so-called secret techniques of knowledge???
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Date: Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 17:56:11 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Interesting
Subject: Meditation Techniques
Message:
There is an old documentary video out called the LOTU (Lord of the Universe) circa 1973. You can see the Lard and his devotees in all their glory. You can also see the techniques demonstrated although MJ has modified them over the years.

light (now technique 1) - used to press hard on eyes

music (now technique 2) - about the same

holy name (now technique 3) - focus on the breath (used to be SO HUNG)--BTW: I've heard he's not - we used to try to focus on this all day, regardless of what we were doing

nectar (now technique 4) - used to stick tongue up into nasal passages (some zealots actually cut the tendon under their tongues to make this possible), then it became just roll tongue gently back, (I did not hear this myself, but I understand the technique is to rest the tongue on the roof of the mouth now - used to be done all day

- Used to be do 2 hours of formal meditation per day plus focus on #3 & 4 all the time.

- now do one hour formal meditation per day minimum - don't practise through the day

The guy has changed his mind more than his underwear when it comes to the cult trip.
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Date: Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 22:56:35 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Interesting
Subject: Hey, JM!!
Message:
I was going to recommend JM's excellent EV/DLM Papers pages for the techniques as they were taught way back when, along with pictures.

But there seems to be a problem with the URL. I'm getting 404's returned from the Geocities server.
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Date: Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 03:58:02 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Hey, Brian!!
Message:
I think the Geocities server was down for a while.
It's perfectly ok.

Maybe to many people connecting at the same time to read the truth about EV's history!
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Date: Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 09:41:56 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Well, in that case
Message:
Here's the link to the EV/DLM Papers. Well worth reading.
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Date: Tues, Jan 19, 1999 at 09:51:45 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Interesting
Subject: Meditation Techniques
Message:
there were pictures showing the techniques on this website?

Here they are, on my website (DLM/EV Papers)

Enjoy a real k session

You'll also find there the changes regarding the 3rd technique (holy name)
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Date: Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 12:24:11 (EST)
From: RT
Email: omm
To: Everyone
Subject: Elan Vital Vitamins in stores
Message:
source Naturals has a multi mineral vitimin called: ELAN VITAL (tm) 100 caps for $18. Just saw it today.

I did not purchase it because I thought I would be compelled to frame the package, adorn it with lotus flowers, and place it on my mantle.

..last thing I need is an alter ego.

RT
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Date: Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 18:09:32 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: RT
Subject: Elan Vital Vitamins in stores
Message:
Oh, no. He's really branching out. Next, he'll be buying the Washington Post and Eaton's.
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