Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum III Archive # 39 | |
From: Feb 19, 1999 |
To: Mar 1, 1999 |
Page: 1 Of: 5 |
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Date: Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 03:27:26 (EST)
From: jboy Email: None To: Everyone Subject: God? You don't know him Message: My God the negativity, the bickering. Wake up!!!!!!!!!!!You don'y have to worship anyone. God was here first not the created things, including Guru. Surprise!!!!!!!!!! Your mind doesn't have to be bashed crashed smashed! You need your mind. True spirituality isn't in hearing voices and going schizo. Wake up.DID YOU HEAR ME WAKE UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You know them by their fruits and your fruits are, well you know..........Just read some of the mental confusion. Like an alcoholic who needs to admit he's got a problem before he can be cured so do you people have to take inventory. Like try reading a book Like Escape from the Guru, someones testimony of how she broke free from the psychic bondage to Sai Baba.Your still in psychic bondage. You don't have to be. What's your Heavenly Fathers and the Lord your God who Christ taught to love with all your heart soul and mind; where do they fit in to the picture? Don't bother to tell me Fuck You, your'e wasting time.WAKE UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and put the past behind. It's not what wrong decisions you made in the past it's what you can do right from here on. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 03:40:17 (EST)
From: everybody should just Email: None To: jboy Subject: ignore this idiot - no text! Message: got nothing to say you idiot! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 06:13:16 (EST)
From: Stevei Email: None To: jboy Subject: We have travelled Eons/Molases Message: jboy...sweet jboy...we have already travelled aeons and gobbled up 100s of Universes for breakfast...MahrajJi is not for the week or squeemish...the ex-premies and those who still are...have gone trhough multiple life time trips which you wont even dream off getting any close too....Your brain is full of molasses.... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 12:13:15 (EST)
From: Sir Bad-Acid Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com To: Stevei Subject: We have travelled Eons/Molases Message: It's kind of here, man. I can't explain it. You'd have to be here too but maybe I can bring you in. I saw my whole life was leading up to this point because it's all happened now. The cars looked angry when I went outside but the shoes look friendly enough. Hey, your trousers are smiling, man! What's that green stuff on your face? I saw myself in the wall. Couldn't take it so I spent several hours in the toilet and when I came back, the kettle STILL hadn't boiled. I'm going to go back to where I belong in the bathroom. Those jewels were beautiful. Perhaps they might take me there as long as the water doesn't overflow again. Man, it made a sick blue mess all over the floor. I've never been here before. But now it's ready, kind of like prepared to sit in a tree and shave off the bark. And the cat knew me, man. I never noticed that before. That cat knows where it's at... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 17:14:01 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Sir Bad-Acid Subject: We have travelled Eons/Molases Message: Dear Sir Bad-Acid, Jesus that was a GREAT post! Just loved it, brought back some great memories! :) Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 19:39:13 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Sir Bad-Acid Subject: We have travelled Eons/Molases Message: David, I had a flashback just reading this post, especially the part about going in the bathroom for hours and when you came out the kettle STILL wasn't boiling. Yes, it is a bummer when you start thinking the trip you're on is the culmination of your existence. Brrr! Scary shit. Fuck acid, man. I never had a good trip, once. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 27, 1999 at 09:34:14 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Jerry Subject: We have travelled Eons/Molases Message: Dear Jerry, I would NEVER do acid again. To much intensity but I had quite a few outrageous experiences. Two premie friends of mine knew a professor who made his own LSD. I never regretted those experiences. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 27, 1999 at 14:44:59 (EST)
From: Sir Bad-Acid Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com To: Robyn Subject: We have travelled Eons/Molases Message: While I wouldn't advise anyone to take acid and wouldn't take it again, I don't regret my trips. Most of them were good and a few were heaven on earth. I think the first one was the best. In that one I did find jewels in the bathroom and saw beautiful flowers growing out of the walls in time to the music. The jewel encrusted bath turned out to be bits where the enamel had come off the bath and the flowers on the walls were flocked wallpaper. It really blew my mind that trip but succeeding trips were rarely as good. My last trip was at a pop festival in the North of England in the early Spring of '72. It was awful and my most vivid memory was of sitting under the stage and wondering how I could escape the melee of people which surrounded me. Then Donovan came on and sang and I thought he looked like the only person singing there who wasn't on a massive ego trip. He was really cool, humble and gentle. The Grateful Dead came on but by that time I had terrible stomach cramps and was sitting in a friend's van trying to keep away from all the people. Just twenty days later I received the big K after doing a bit of cult shopping. I had a choice between the Children of God or the Incarnation of God on earth. With that info, what does a spaced out guy choose? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 21:33:53 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: M on self-confidence Message: I wonder why he doesn't post this little gem of inspiration on his web site: 'So premies, if we really look for a second into our hearts, truly within our hearts, and not fake ourselves out, we will find that one of the major problems that we have is our own mind. Our mind has become such a part of us, and it is a problem; it is that thing that has been creating so much mischief within inside of us. Therefore, we always need to keep that mind quiet, to keep that mind shut, to keep that mind out of the way. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 22:44:26 (EST)
From: nick the quick Email: None To: Jim Subject: M on self-confidence Message: you wonder why.... when you were a little child, you probably wondered if there was a god. might be time to go back and find that feeling that wants to know and then maybe you would not be so ...whatever,,,, it is not easy to trust this invisible energy, but once seen, and homaged, thats all we are left with Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 23:12:37 (EST)
From: Gail Email: None To: nick the quick Subject: M on self-confidence Message: it is not easy to trust this invisible energy, but once seen, and homaged, thats all we are left with . . . Well, Nick. I saw light, heard sounds, felt my breath, stuck my tongue back. I worshipped MJ. Now, I know better. I am so so ...whatever,,,, FURIOUS because I wasted all that time. Do you have any guarantee that there will be a payoff for my time? I supposed you are realized and blissed out all the time, are you? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 23:53:07 (EST)
From: nikki the quicki Email: None To: Gail Subject: M on self-confidence Message: quarantee? fury us? let us for the sake of argument, assume that there was a jesus, what did he preach? make thine eye single and thy whole body will be full of light,,,,those who drink from these waters shall not taste death, well sweetheart grab your god by the balons and demand fulfillment. now you know better? now your no better, trust where the breath takes you, and you will be right where you are,no time no space, but oh what a giant consciousness and it is this giant conscousness which is keeping us all going, is that realized enuf, blissed out, i guess one could say such, if one looks in the mira and sees god. dear sweethart, if god is everywhere, then is your mirror in that everywhere? jesus said the lord was in your heart,thats the first thing the boss told me, and i concur and pray alot, i would walk around with my hands in pray form except for the fact that i would get arrested. peace, sister Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 02:40:41 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: nikki the quicki Subject: M on self-confidence Message: nikki, Jesus was not talking about M's parlour tricks. You have been misled and your interpretation of the scriptures is wrong. Check out JM's site for an explanation of those quotations offered by the Mahatmas. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 19:29:08 (EST)
From: Denise Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Feeling Ripped Off Message: I feel really ripped off! You mean I've been in a cult all these years and missed out on the the goodies? *Never got to live in an ashram *Never got to be celibate by choice *Never got to get colored water sprayed on me *Never got to do the Arti ceremony *Never got to drink or whatever you're supposed to do with the Charanmrit (however you spell it). *Never got Maharaji's agya *Never got to get berated by a mahatma or instructor *Never got to surrender ( or at least didn't realize I was) *Never got to do back-breaking service Geez, all I got out of the deal was Knowledge!!! I am so jealous of y'all! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 19:56:10 (EST)
From: halay and lula Email: None To: Denise Subject: Feeling Ripped Off Message: vote 4 bill bradley #24 nyknicks Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 20:13:49 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: halay and lula Subject: Andrea Wilson Message: Bill Bradley, like, isn't he like super tall and stuff? From the like arm-pit of the like total country and stuff? I am so sure. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 20:14:05 (EST)
From: Gail Email: None To: halay and lula Subject: Wake up, Denise Message: I do feel ripped off. I did partake of all that garbage. Would you like me to send you a copy of the 1979 Holi Festival when our Lord paraded about on stage and demanded that we surrender to him because he was the Lord of Lords, the supreme power in person. You know it's all true, Denise. You should feel ripped off. Either MJ forgot to tell you he was Lord or he's fleeced you for your time, emotions, and money. By the time you came along, Denise, MJ was busy building cult membership in third world countries using our donation monies. He also realized that he had to play down the lord/devotion trip in the West to attract new membership. If it was so true, and he was the Lord, why did he have to keep reinventing himself, his organization, the techniques and the method of practise? It has evolved to avoid the media and to appeal to new recruits. New folks don't want to become renunciates, or surrender. Speaking of which, how many new members have enlisted in your community. Few, I'll bet. Why? because it's a weird cult with many unspoken overtones. New folks aren't stupid. They don't commit. Listen to what MJ says--nothing. You have been duped! The money you give goes to support his lifestyle. If you give up the idea that he is the Lord, then perhaps you can make the stretch that K is not necessarily divine. It's old and perhaps healthy for the body, but no one has realized it. So what's the goal? Do you really think you are enlightened? Is anyone. Who knows more than you about spirituality? Why do you give them credibility? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 20:32:00 (EST)
From: Gail Email: None To: Gail Subject: Denise, You're still here! Message: Didn't yesterday's afternoon delight of meditation cure your doubts? I thought all you needed was just a little practise of the 'gift of all gifts.' Why aren't you at Maharaji.com or Enjoyinglife.org instead? You just can't keep away, can you? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 22:29:51 (EST)
From: Old Timer Email: None To: Gail Subject: Wake up, Gail Message: There was a time I thought he was just terrible too! Oh, it didn't last very long. I guess about 5 hours. I really freaked. My mind went completely nuts and I saw him as someone who was terribly deceptive, like the incarnation of all my fears. But it was just a phase. It happens to some people, but not everyone. He was just too Bright for me, and the part of me that loves the darkness felt burned by that Light. He was too clear for me, and the part of me that loves confusion hated him. He was too humble for me, and the part of me that loves my ego condescended to him with a fury. With the dawning of the next day, I realized it was all my own Tempest, my own Storm. I took a break from him for a while, afraid of his effect on me. I had a number of opportunities to go see him, and did not go, and just didn't worry about it, didn't bother myself about it. Just took a break. Then, a month or two later, when I felt like I really wanted to, I saw him again, and everything was fine. No more storms, no more tempests. Some of us have heavier demons to struggle with I guess. The trick is not to feed the demons. Just let go, let go of it all...relax and just BE. Just be a PERSON. Just eat and play and work and sleep and visit nice friends, and relax for a little while. Why do you hang onto your suffering? Do you really feel that that is what you deserve? Really, you don't need to suffer. If thinking about Maharaji creates so much animosity in you, why do you put yourself through this? Just let go of him. Find something you really enjoy to fill your thoughts and your days. Life is too precious to waste it being an 'anti' anything! Be 'pro' something which really makes you feel good, and which does not bring you back again and again bitterness, anger, etc., like a dog eating its own vomit. Spit it out. Rinse it out. Have a mint. Let go. I'm very sorry for you that you are freaking out for so long. My five hours was miserable. You have to let go of the stuff that's biting you. Take a break, just don't think about it at all, positive or negative, for a week or two. Take a vacation. See if you don't feel better. Then, my advice? Get a life. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 27, 1999 at 01:47:22 (EST)
From: Nim Email: None To: Gail and Denise Subject: Relax Gail, relax Denise:) Message: Ya Gail, don't you just miss HIS brightness, HIS clarity, HIS humility, such as when he said the following: 'You want to hold onto your principles? You want to know what's going to happen to you? I'll tell you what's going to happen. Your ship's going to sink. You want to hold onto your principles? I'll tell you what's going to happen. You're going to die!' Ah Gail, wheeeeeeeee!!!!!!! Wasn't that just SUCH A DELIGHTFUL message.?!!! See you at the next video, Gail. Wheeeeeeeeee!!! ******************************************************************Denise, I trust that Gail knows that I was kidding, but the above qoute from m is very real. And it's not a quote from the 70's. This is m in the 90's (just last May98 in Montreal. I was there. Denise, when you said in a previous post That ALL YOU RECEIVED from m was Knowledge and nothing else,IMHHO, you may be mistaken on two counts. First of all I believe that what you received from m were TECHNIQUES and NOT KNOWLEDGE. Knowledge is OURS to claim by exploring the world outside of ourselves, and for those who so choose , by exploring the world within. I believe it IS our birthright, but I have to take it, or claim it for myself. No one, besides myself, can give it to me. Others may help, but remember as the title of a book about this subject so aptly put it IF YOU MEET THE BUDDHA ON THE PATH---SHOOT HIM Secondly, m gave you MORE than techniques. He gave you himself as an object of idol worship. And when your idol/master speaks to you Denise, well you know you have to hang on to every word he says, because if you don't, well...in that case YOU ARE NOT FULLY RECEIVING ALL THE GIFTS your master is offering to you. Now that's a problem. To refuse the GIFTS of your MASTER? How can you do that? And so the above words from Maharaji, constitutes a GIFT from YOUR MASTER, a gift from HIM to you. I'd like to ask you to look them over and ask yourself what they mean to you. The words are precise. They are accurate. And then, only if you like, can you answer this question? Denise, can you truly accept the GIFT? ****************************************************************** Love ya Gail, love ya Denise. Nim:) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 27, 1999 at 18:50:46 (EST)
From: Gail Email: None To: Nim Subject: Thanks, Nimmy Message: This reminds me of getting a Doctor's certificate and running off to Australia for eight days last year to be with the Lard in Amaroo (as a school teacher, it was unlikely to be granted a leave a week after school started). Lovely, eh? I had turned into a liar and a thief to feed my addiction. Incidently, that is exactly what I was called by one of MJ's European chefs after his darshan experience. This is after slaving in Daya's Fine Dining for free all day. We were supposed to pay for the reheated pasta from tent city which was being offered to the slaves at $5 per plate. Boy, was I dumb. BY HIS FRUITS YOU SHALL KNOW HIM! JSCA Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 15:30:19 (EST)
From: op Email: None To: Nim Subject: Relax Gail, relax Denise:) Message: 'You want to hold onto your principles? You want to know what's going to happen to you? I'll tell you what's going to happen. Your ship's going to sink. You want to hold onto your principles? I'll tell you what's going to happen. You're going to die!' This is not a quote. This is what is commonly known as interpolation. I can't paste the entire quote here - but there's a lot more to it than the very clever cut and paste job you did. And if this is what you heard when you were in Montreal, maybe it's true that M is just a mirror. Because just think about your own principles before you acuse others. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 19:37:29 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: op Subject: Put up or shut up, op Message: This is not a quote. This is what is commonly known as interpolation. I can't paste the entire quote here - but there's a lot more to it than the very clever cut and paste job you did. There you go again. You know the real story but you just can't share it with us. Like you're too busy or it's too delicate or your anonymity's at stake.... what is it this time, op? By the way, you once said to me: 'I could make a list [of Maharaji's miracles] that would make Jesus look like a side show for the main event. But I really DON'T like the idea of judging on the basis of cosmic entertainment.' Well. the way it works is that, whether you want to judge Maharaji by them or not, you're claiming that you're aware of some amazing miracles m's done. You might not care about them but I do. I'm asking you to back this outrageous claim up, if you can. I'm really interested in this. What miracles has Maharaji done that 'would make Jesus look like a side show'? Huh? Or are we too busy, too anonymous, not interested in whether anyone believes you, sworn to secrecy..... ??? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 23:56:14 (EST)
From: op Email: None To: Jim Subject: Put up or shut up, op Message: 'I could make a list [of Maharaji's miracles] that would make Jesus look like a side show for the main event. But I really DON'T like the idea of judging on the basis of cosmic entertainment.' As I recall, I wrote this in an email that you agreed would just be between us. Now I'm very glad that I didn't go through with sending you everything I'd intended, because I know it would be posted. I did answer you below, in case you haven't looked. And I still don't like the idea of a miracle display. I'm sorry, I'm not going to do it. I know you would find it fun to try to find the sleight of hand in every step that M has ever taken. But there are some things that I DO hold dear, even sacred, if you will. And I won't have them trod upon. But I can tell you, they don't have anything to do with getting high off of charanamrit, or being carried out of the darshan tent in a state of semi-conscious bliss. Nor with being blown into interplanetary space by 'holy breath'. These items have nothing to do with altered consciousness. Those are Eastern ways of showing devotion and respect for the master, and nothing more. Some people love them, just like some people love rituals of other sorts in their lives. Others find them silly, or offensive. I mentioned below that there have been some absurd mistakes along the way - one of them, I think, was mixing up psychedelics with darshan. I completely agree that what most people perceived as a 'high' from Darshan was their own endomorphins. I happen to like the rituals. I feel very close to Indian culture, and feel comfortable in it. I know people who are just as 'devoted', feel just as close to M - or closer, who can't relate to India and Indian ways at all. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 03:42:54 (EST)
From: Marshall Email: None To: op Subject: Give me an I... Message: Give me a D... Give me an I... give me an O... give me a T... What's that spell? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 22:48:40 (EST)
From: Nim Email: None To: op Subject: slimey revisionism Message: 'You want to hold onto your principles? You want to know what's going to happen to you? I'll tell you what's going to happen. Your ship's going to sink. You want to hold onto your principles? I'll tell you what's going to happen. You're going to die!' Thats the quote, that I claim comes from m's talk in Montreal last May 98. IT IS NOT AN INTERPOLATION, nor is it a cut and paste job as you suggest. My submission of the quote above is an accurate repetition of 7 sentences (or phrases, if you wish) which m spoke in exactly these words and in exactly the same sequence as reported above. People who know me well, will tell you I have an excellent memory. And beleive me, when he spoke these words I was paying very close attention. Sorry about that. I also remember the excerpts of m's speech which you have submitted, but that's all they are... excerpts that led up to THE QUOTE. They are not THE QUOTE itself. And you tell me to examine my own principles?!! How nice to meet you op! Ok, so THE QUOTE has been edited out of the official gulag version for posterity sake. Jim has asked you a whole a bunch of questions about video censorship. I believe that evry pwk who has gone to an event with m and later seen the video, knows that the videos are occasionally censored . They have to be, because M can occasionally do and say some pretty strange things in his talks. We'll start a thread for you sometime soon just on that subject. Something like 'video censorship'. How's that? In the meantime op, you lie, and you know it. That's why you give yourself this out, And if this is what you heard when you were in Montreal, (ah, so after all that we finally acknowledge the possibility that THE QUOTE is true .... thank you, op) maybe it's true that M is just a mirror. M IS NOT JUST A MIRROR. He's the guy who spoke THE QUOTE. Now he can eat it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 20:35:12 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Denise Subject: Feeling Ripped Off Message: Denise, I'm not sure I'm reading you properly. It looks like you're being faceitious but I can't quite get a handle on it. Am I right in thinking that you appreciate 'Knowledge' and kind of resent the fact that we're letting you in on this troublesome history? Is that it? Denise, 'Knowledge' is bullshit. That's the first thing. It's a random grab bag of Indian meditation techniques. Apparently, they used to teach as many as five more in Prem Nagar (Maharaji's first family estate)as recently as the late sixties. Any way, they're available all over the place. Thanking Maharaji for them would be as perverse as thanking your first boyfriend for sex. It's not his, he didn't create it and it's not at all what he claims it is anyway (unlike sex, which, thankfully, is sex). It's really nothing but a white noise for zoning out a bit. All the 'depth' and 'profundity' is mere wishful thinking. The problem, though, is that this scheme plays on one of our last great unknown frontiers, consciousness. We know a lot more about the brain and mind than we did back when the Indians were cooking up all this stuff, but we still don't know enough to innoculate us against these kinds of scams. (Actually, I think that's really on true of the general population. I'd just love to see Maharaji try to peddle his ignorance to anyone who's actually studied brain science at all. Now that would be one question and answer session I'd pay thousands to sit in on.) Nonetheless, we are vulnerable to spiritual siren songs. Real knowledge, in the end, has to be the real antidote. In the meantime, however, the answer has to lie in Maharaji's character, words and actions. Unless you actually think he's the Lord in human form and beyond all morality, reason and accountability, you simply have to judge him. If you don't you've sold out your own integrity for a fake security blanket and, frankly, deserve to be penned up in a cult like this. What I find troubling about your post is that you seem to think understanding Maharaji is superfluous. So long as you buy into his meditation, everything's fine. Before I continue, could you clarify this. Is that your attitude? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 22:32:26 (EST)
From: Denise Email: None To: Jim Subject: Feeling Ripped Off Message: Well, this is it. In some weird crazy kind of way, I am kind of sad I missed out on at least some of that stuff. In fact, I was around at the very very tail end and was sad at the time that I was not going to be able to participate, esp. Holi. The end of satsang at people's houses made me sad and angry that the rules were changing. I guess what you're sensing is mixed emotions. I've not fully gotten to the ex status yet but my whole trip is different now. Actually, if I'm angry at anyone it's M for hiding things and mostly those in my first community that kept a lot of things secret. But maybe they were just following M's agya (my new word for the week). I should have had access to all of that information at the beginning when I was making the decision to go ahead. I did have some info. such as the LOTU idea and just blew that off so I could get the techniques, which is all I cared about at the time. M was just some figurehead somewhere that people talked about and I really wanted no part of in the beginning. I guess you're sensing my anger in that, but as I said before, there is a part of me that is jealous that y'all got to experience that. I may be living pretty main stream, but I really am kind of eccentric in attitude (except for the fact that I tend to agree with the Republicans politically). I must be not completely ready to hear all this because it really bugs my denial system when y'all use the word 'cult', it's such a strong term. Can't quite come to grips with it yet. Hope I let you know where I'm at. The post was only partially faceitious, but partially true also, I hate to admit. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 23:07:10 (EST)
From: Gail Email: None To: Denise Subject: Feeling Ripped Off Message: I appreciate your honesty. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 23:18:03 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com To: Denise Subject: Feeling Ripped Off Message: The only thing you really DID miss was satsang in living rooms in people's houses. This was often very good. It was a mix of stand-up comedy (sitting down) genuine expression about life, inspiring words, a kind of group therapy and all in a loving enviroment. This was good and it was healthy. Take away the cult and just leave ordinary people sharing things in a loving and attentive way and you have a good thing there which was benificial for everybody. Maharaji, in his wisdom, took all that away and replaced it with sterile and unfriendly 'video events' of his lordship. I felt ripped off when he gave his agya that no more of these warm and friendly get togethers were to appear again. The whole thing fell apart then. One thing is certain, Maharaji has no understanding of how normal people are. His present organisation reflects his cold character. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 10:24:27 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Feeling Ripped Off Message: It was a mix of stand-up comedy (sitting down) genuine expression about life, inspiring words, a kind of group therapy and all in a loving enviroment. This was good and it was healthy. David, it was a place where people sang the praises of M and exaggerated what was 'within'. It was a place where the clan met to hide from reality. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 11:31:45 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Oh no it wasn't Message: Not in the places far away from the mission. Sometimes Guru Maharaj Ji was never mentioned. No arti was sung and people didn't exaggerate their experiences. Perhaps you didn't get this sort of thing in America but some of the evening satsangs I went to in people's houses were like a different thing altogether. It was more like group therapy. It was actually getting away from Maharaji and what he wanted. I think that's why he put an end to it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 11:49:38 (EST)
From: Selene Email: None To: Sir David and Jerry Subject: Oh no it wasn't Message: I think it was a mixture of both. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 12:28:08 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Oh yes it was Message: David, I can't recall a single satsang where starry eyed premies weren't gushing about M & K. And that's all they were doing. We were in a cult for Christ's sakes. There was no leisure time to discuss other interests. When I went to satsang, I left all my outside interests at the door with my shoes. If you spoke about these things, it was always as analogies to M & K. You NEVER spoke of these things in and of themselves as if they had some merit on their own. It was frowned upon. If you did, people looked at you like you were a jerk. And yes, people did exaggerate their experiences. They took simple 'I feel good' experiences and blew them way out of proportion, attributing them to M & K and thanking M as if he was the breath of life itself. It was all insane. There was nothing healthy about it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 12:57:10 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Oh yes it was Message: I can't recall a single satsang where starry eyed premies weren't gushing about M & K. And that's all they were doing. Jerry, this was true in my experience most of the time. There was a period, short-lived, in 1976 when that changed, and the premies actually, at least where I was, met in small groups and shared and discussed all kinds of things. I loved that period because I felt like we were finally going to get to be adults. But Maharaji put the kabosh on it and by 1977 we were back droning on about Maharaji and 'that love', but now was added all the stuff about 'longing' and 'devotion' and 'surrender.' Even talking about experiences in meditation were discouraged. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 13:12:54 (EST)
From: John Email: None To: JW Subject: It was just soooo beautiful! Message: What the hell did we talk about anyway? I think 'hell' would be listening to myself give satsang back in 1980. Actually, I do remember sometimes I used to make people laugh hysterically. After speaking though I had no memory of anything I'd said. Very wierd. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 15:41:32 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: None To: John Subject: Look behind you! Message: In a lot of places I went to, it was uncool to have a heavy devotional trip or to profess enlightenment etc. People actually saw through it all. This really was the case. But what better place for stand-up comedy (sitting down)? Or talking passionately about life etc. You had a captured audience of attentive, smiling faces. They all believed that Goo Mraaji's grace was coming through no matter what you said. Often someone would come up to me after satsang that I'd given and say that I'd talked about exactly what had been troubling them etc. Other people experienced this. And people did get off on opening up and also listening to others doing the same. It had possibilities and potential if it had gone further away from Maharaji's trip. Few Western cultures have experimented with this kind of communication except in group therapy sessions where everyone's depressed or something. I think it showed potential for a new type of gathering or communication. Of course, it was not what Maraji wanted. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 16:01:59 (EST)
From: John Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Look behind you! why? Message: Oh, look, I LOVED giving satsang. I mean, it was definetly one of the few pleasures we were allowed back then. That and food... and wasn't there something else? Hmmm... can't remember now. Oh yeah, being able to sleep in a room with 6 other people. Especially when someone had too many soy burgers... But yeah, being able to speak into a sea of open trusting beautiful faces all hanging on your next word as if you yourself were the Lord speaking. It was great. No doubt about it. But, don't you think it was sort of a castle built on sand? It was fundamentally flawed because only certain things were allowed to be communicated, everything had to have some kind of spiritual lesson. I started to have very disturbed feelings about satsang which also helped me get the hell out of the cult. It started to really bother me that I had no idea what I was saying. Also, we just did it too much. Every night. It also really handicapped me later in life when I had to get up and speak and be expected to actually make sense. But all in all, I would rate giving satsang as the best experience of 'My Cult Years'. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 16:44:05 (EST)
From: chr Email: None To: John Subject: Look behind you! why? Message: I tend to agree with Sir David. I think there were times of honesty and there was a kind of unpredictable spontaneity that occurred by allowing anyone who wanted to, to give satsang. Most of the time, however , it was gushy, vaccuous ,starry eyed tripe. Any life and appeal that it did have was taken away as M became more controlling. If I remember rightly it began with only instructors being allowed to speak, which was bad enough, and then 'evolved' into videos of M, which I found incredibly boring and lifeless and in the end downright irritating. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 27, 1999 at 01:00:34 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: John Subject: Look behind you! why? Message: John you really crack me up--especially that line about now having to get up in front of people and actually make sense. Er, is that important? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 09:47:39 (EST)
From: John Email: None To: Helen Subject: speak to me with thy mind Message: The real problem I encounterd, post cult, was standing up and speaking to people and not having them look at me in that respectful quiet worshipful way I had been used to in satsang. When they looked at me, I could tell, they were 'thinking'! Yikes! That was Scary! They were actually being 'critical'! I wanted to tell them, hey no fair, no thinking allowed, you're supposed to let go of your thoughts, relax, go within, don't pay such close attention to the words, feel what's 'behind the words'. Actually, once I adapted, I loved it. I found I really enjoyed 'thinking'. I really enjoy hearing your 'thoughts'. I don't want to hear your breath! I want to hear your mind! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 20:46:21 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: John Subject: the stinkin' breath o' god Message: Yeah, the real world is NOT at all like Maharaji land!! Thinking IS a good thing--I personally like it! I'm glad you are so upbeat about it--it gives me inspiration. I guess I was the worst satsang giver on the planet. I always went off on tangents, lots of detail, opinion, and editorializing!! Like I do here! I much prefer it here to the satsang hall. Sincere human love did eek through in satsang and in the premie world, but not as much as in the 'real world'. Now how do you like that? The world really ain't a bad place after all Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 22:12:03 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: JW Subject: '76 was weird in a dif way Message: Joe, 1976 was pretty weird in a whole different way. All those vague, self-important, organizational charts and such. All that earnest est-like nonsense. In fact, that was the year a whole segment of the Ottawa community got into Dale Carnegie of all things. FunKY! Man, it's kind of sad how it all happened. '76 was the culmination of m's experimental westernizing of the cult. We really thought we might be able to have our cakes and eat them too after all. That is, we just might be able to 'surrender' but still get a piece of 'the world'. How excited we were anticipating a chance to be at least slightly grown up but still children 'at his feet' (or could we still say that? Remember how confused we all got regarding what we thought were baby and bathwater issues? Turns out it was all the latter.) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 09:39:44 (EST)
From: John Email: None To: Jim Subject: Whaddya think of this theory? Message: I figured out why, in 1976, M kept the ashrams viable for 7 more years. According to Maslow, one of the final steps to self-actualization is realizing your limitations. When he was 18 (in 1976) M was still a typical wise-ass arrogant teenager, convinced the world was totally stupid, and that he was above it all, and that there was nothing he could not accomplish in this world ruled by idiots. So, for 7 more years, until 1983, M preached to dedicate everything to him, he had us sing to him that he was the superior power, that he was our mother and father, he was our all, and now is the time to dedicate, don't follow all those dead-end train tracks of career and family, dedicate Now to Him. But then in 1983, he was in his mid-twenties. In our 20's we start to gain a more realistic view of the world. We have been humbled a bit, and we probably have learned to respect our elders. Suddenly the world is not filled with idiots, suddenly we start to see that we are not quite as great as we thought we were. I know I had a totally different view of my parents at 25 than I did at 18! So, M finally woke up and realized...duhhhhh! hey, I'm really not the superior power in person! I'm really not able to take care of all these thousands of ashram premies! Why the hell did I think I needed an old airplane rebuilt! He finally started to realize his limitations. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 09:49:38 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: John Subject: That's pretty good Message: John, Although we'll likely never know every twist and turn in m's own developing discovery that he wasn't divine, it probably did follow a course such as you posit. God, I'd love to hear it from him. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 20:10:43 (EST)
From: Denise Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Feeling Ripped Off Message: Didn't miss satsang in people's living rooms, got to have it even in my own living room for a year or more. Yes, it was wonderful and I was sad when it was done away with. I guess it went on for about 2 years or so after I received K. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 23:51:19 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Denise Subject: Feeling Ripped Off Message: Well, believe me, it wasn't all beautiful and blissful. Are you feeling left out because you're not in the 'club' or something? You think having a psychotic breakdown is cute? Is suicide kind of glamorous to you? I'm not trying to tear you down, Denise, I'm just here to tell you that if we're making it all sound glamorous IT WASN'T I was resistant to the word 'cult' when I first started hanging out on the forum. I left Maharaji 15 or so years ago but Maharaji still had a kind of mystique around him in my own mind, until I found this site and sorted it all out. Now the word 'cult' fits and doesn't seem too extreme to me, certainly, at the least, it is a personality cult with Maharaji, the rock star, at its center, being worshipped. (My husband's one line summary of Maharaji is: 'He wants to be a rock star, not a minister'. My husband is a therapist, too BTW) I also think it is a cult because Maharaji does not acknowledge any kind of criticism of his methods, techniques, or lifestyle. Those things just never get addressed. And the aspect of attributing an experiencing you are having at point B to Maharaji who is at point A, is nothing less than magical thinking brought about by brainwashing. The word 'cult' was hard for me to face up to, because it required that I admit that I have been duped, that I had been foolish. I'm over that now (feeling foolish) because he's a pretty slick character and so many other intelligent folk were duped too. The glamour that Maharaji once had is completely gone for me, I think JW once said something like 'when I look at his picture now I just see a fat greasy little Indian guy'. That's what I see also.Although I have to admit that Maharaji was a very beautiful child (most children are beautiful to me though.) Whether you can get with the word 'cult' is not really the issue...it's coming to terms with where all this love you're feeling is coming from (it's coming from within YOU) and realizing that GM is just a good con man...he taught you a meditation technique that you like-- grand!! My car dealership sold me a great used car that I love but I don't feel the need to worship it (the dealership) or give it money. I don't need to fuel an ongoing relationship with the dealership in order to enjoy my car. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 08:03:37 (EST)
From: Happy Email: None To: Helen Subject: Feeling Ripped Off Message: That was a wise and beautiful post. Thank you. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 22:17:04 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Helen Subject: Ok, don't call it a cult Message: How about 'trap'? Is that any better? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 27, 1999 at 01:36:44 (EST)
From: Jethro Email: None To: Jim Subject: Trap is a good word Jim Message: Quote from prempal: A trap is something easy to get into but really hard to get out of. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 13:34:23 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Denise Subject: Feeling Ripped Off Message: Denise: Believe me, you didn't miss anything. Holi and that stuff was very boring after the first time. I have a hard time thinking about being a premie without communities and community satsang, since that was such a big part of what it was all about in the past, and I did rather enjoy the community part of it, being part of a group that had a common purpose, but there were real downsides to that as well. I don't know why Maharaji abolished that; did he ever say? I think it might be because it looked to much like a cult and he was trying to not draw attention to him or his group in the West. Now, regarding the world 'cult.' I used also to shy away from that word, because I didn't want to think I was ever in a 'cult.' But now I use it alot because I think it's important to label things what they really are. To me, a cult has three main characteristics: 1. The members of the cult believe that they have something (like a gift?, or are a a part of something, that other people don't have, and they feel more blessed or more privileged or better than other people as a result; 2. The cult discourages and is highly intolerant of criticism of the cult, its teachings, and, especially, the cult leader. [Notice how we can't get a premie to say even the most minor criticism of Maharaji. Even Mel says Maharaji isn't 'beyond criticism' but can't bring himself to say anything he doesn't like about him or anything he's done. You are somewhat of an exception there, Denise, maybe because you were never that into Maharaji in the first place, although he was so central to my involvement, I have a hard time understanding that.] Even after I left the cult, it was sometime before I could allow myself to be critical of Maharaji. I always had the feeling like I would be struck my lightning if I did. 3. The cult preaches dire consequences if you ever leave or abandon the 'practice' or the group. Maharaji used to overtly threaten premies with hell if they left pacticing knowledge. Basically he said your evil mind would get you, that you would smash into a thousand pieces, etc. Now, he's more subtle, but the inference is still there, the idea that you will miss out on the 'gift of life' if you left knoweldge. 4. There is a charismatic leader who is thought to have powers that other humans don't have. This one is pretty obvious. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 22:43:25 (EST)
From: Old Timer Email: ex-ex@usa.net To: Denise Subject: To Denise Message: That's very interesting what you are saying, Denise. I can relate to your feeling jealous and angry. I try to imagine coming on the scene later in the game, and I think there is a very good possibility I would feel the same as you, if I got to just thinking about it and analyzing it and hanging out around here, filling my head up with all this 'company of bitterness and jealousy.' If you want to experience a fulfillment that only grows more and more, and where doubts bother you less and less, all you need to do is the simple formula: regular listening and keeping in touch, practicing every day minimum one hour, and participating or contributing when you really feel like you want to do that, just because it feels so good. You will find everything you want and more. You will find so much more, that you will leave any cause for jealousy far, far behind. I can say this only because I have experienced it. Hanging out on this website, you're hanging out with those who would like nothing better than to suck all the joy out of you. Decide what you want, and then go for it. Sitting on a fence and tottering back and forth, that's just a no-win situation. Best wishes, Denise. (By the way, if you have time to practice more than just an hour per day, I have found that helps tremendously to practice much longer than the minimum!) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 23:03:23 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Old Timer Subject: Yes, you're right, OT Message: If you want to experience a fulfillment that only grows more and more, and where doubts bother you less and less, all you need to do is the simple formula: regular listening and keeping in touch, practicing every day minimum one hour, and participating or contributing when you really feel like you want to do that, just because it feels so good. You will find everything you want and more. You will find so much more, that you will leave any cause for jealousy far, far behind. Yes, that's it. That's the formula. Give Maharaji cash and he will give you peace. I love it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 27, 1999 at 01:42:56 (EST)
From: Jethro Email: None To: Jim Subject: Yes, you're right, OT Message: I wonder how these 'old timers' edit out stuff like jagdeos behaviour and prem's use of premie money etc etc......oh I forgot just practice more and you'll feel good.....after all, all that matters is 'my experience'. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 15:37:22 (EST)
From: op Email: pragonampi@ao.com To: Denise Subject: Feeling Ripped Off Message: Dear Denise: You can still go to Holi if you can get to India. It's as much fun as ever and it's not that expensive to go. Jim, I'm sorry to have to do this, because I know you'll complain but... Denise, if you'd like to email me for another perspective on the forum from a practicing premie who is tired of getting chewed up here so doesn't post that often, I've added my address to this post. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 15:39:20 (EST)
From: op Email: pragonampi@aol.com To: Denise Subject: Feeling Ripped Off Message: Denise: sorry, I miswrote my email address on the previous post. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 16:21:08 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: op Subject: Fuck you, op Message: Denise, if you'd like to email me for another perspective on the forum from a practicing premie who is tired of getting chewed up here so doesn't post that often, I've added my address to this post. Fuck you for the insult, op. You get challenged here. You get asked hard questions here. You simply can't rationally defend your premieship but you don't have the integrity to call a spade a spade. For example, we were discussing something a few weeks ago, weren't we? No one was being particularly hard or insulting to you. As I recall, I'd asked you a few questions that, as usual, you dropped off the screen rather than answer. It all started, I believe, when you attacked Katie out of the blue. Remember? You just couldn't believe that she could buy your bullshit and say so with a straight face. right? That discussion was hardly you getting 'chewed up' but still you couldn't see it through. So now what? As you've done with every wavering premie who's ever posted here, you're trying to get Denise into a quiet, shadowy corner where no one can hear what you whisper. Tell me, op, if your thoughts are so worthwhile, why can't they stand the light of day? Hm? What you'd really love, of course, is if Denise just turned her lights down. You want her to just give all this thinking a rest, huh? Maybe turn on a video or something. Let Maharaji think and talk for her, right? Am I missing something? What is it you have to tell her that's so private? About how you, too, have experienced doubt but that, over time, you know you just can't listen to your own thoughts, better listen to the guru? You're slime, op. You might as well be offering someone a crack pipe. see, you yourself know that there's a very real possibility that m's a fraud and that you are just too long-gone for saving. You've made your bed, life's short, and that's about it. Sure, you can't answer any of the real questions here. You have to bail out of any discussion as soon as it gets the least bit real. But, oh well. Right? So now, knowing as you do, that this could all be a farce, you're still trying to keep others from thinking it through. That, op, is despicable. You don't believe in your own bullshit enough to defend it out in the open here. Hell, you won't even tell us your name. But you will do all you can to keep someone else for thinking freely and that, in my opinion, is treachery. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 23:36:27 (EST)
From: op Email: None To: Jim Subject: Fuck you, op Message: Ok Jim - There were some issues on the board a couple of weeks ago. I couldn't answer right then because I just didn't have the time, and now they seem rather old, stale - finito. If you want to re-ask questions, I'll answer. I don't feel like talking directly to premies on the board here because I'd rather have a conversation than a shouting match. There is nothing secret. I really didn't mean to insult Katie, btw. I was pointing out something I thought was rather obvious, and it was meant in good humor. I'm sorry it was taken so literally. In not participating, I've watched some of the characters of people here develop and flower. There have even been some times when I've seen a Jim that acts as other than a chained bulldog. (To rip off a conversation between Jim and Mel Bourne: JW, if you and I met off this forum, I think you'd find me someone you could talk to - maybe even someone you'd like.) I've seen bits and pieces of people that I can completely relate to - AS HUMAN BEINGS. I hope this doesn't come across as high and mighty talk, because it's not. I'm just another human being on the earth, and of course I have political views, and artistic leanings, and intellectual and emotional preferences. I simply did not have the same experiences about M that are described here. I lived in the ashram for only a few years, it's true. But my ties to DLM and M remained strong over the years, and I have other opinions about things that have happened. I don't deny that there have been some decisions along the way that don't make sense. I have told you several times that I don't see Maharaji as a perfect person. If I try to explain what I do see in him, however, all I've ever come up against - mostly from you, Jim - is daggers and punches. I know it looks like I ran away last time I was on the board. I didn't really mean to, and I'll try to answer questions this time. Here's one. You (I think it was you, anyway) wrote about the enjoyinglife site: Tell me this, op. Do you not agree that the premies SOUND like they're in a cult? I'm not asking if they are. That's another question. I'm asking you if you think they would SOUND like they are to anyone reading them. I think some of the people who write on the site could easily sound like they're not thinking for themselves. I don't know if I'd go quite so far as saying that they sound cultish, but several of them seem to have picked up key words and expressions and use them like a formula. I don't like those posts either, and I wish people would think for themselves. But there are some others, some who I know personally and some who I don't, who I do find really inspiring. Some stories that make me want to meet the person, or wish I could respond to her or him. Then there are people who are just plain bad writers, and don't know how to express themselves with words. They get the E for effort, because they've dared to put themselves on the line, even if they don't do it quite with quite as much flair as you (or I) would like them to. As for humor, making fun of ourselves - I don't see M doing it in public very often (although he does on occasion - not on stage at an official event, but in more casual settings). Definitely others do laugh at themselves. I know a few pompous asses who refuse to, who won't admit to, for example, ever missing a day of 'practice'. But there are plenty of other people who can take - and give - a ribbing. Do people laugh at M? Tease him about a bad hair day or an ugly tie? I don't know. True, I've never seen that. But is it a prerequisite to anything? I never teased my college professors, either. Nor my father, even though I disagreed with him on many subjects. Nor several of my relatives, certainly not those who are older than me. As for my anonymity, sorry Jim, I have to keep that, at least for now. You'll have to trust that it's because I can't afford a high profile, which posting here would give me automatically. take care, best wishes to all. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 00:59:31 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: op Subject: Humor Message: op wrote: 'As for humor, making fun of ourselves - I don't see M doing it in public very often (although he does on occasion - not on stage at an official event, but in more casual settings). Definitely others do laugh at themselves. I know a few pompous asses who refuse to, who won't admit to, for example, ever missing a day of 'practice'. But there are plenty of other people who can take - and give - a ribbing. Do people laugh at M? Tease him about a bad hair day or an ugly tie? I don't know.' op, one of the things that always bothered me about premies was their lack of humor, especially about DLM and M. I am part of a seminary community and we often poke fun at the community and at the Church. In fact, once a year we have a program, 'The Follies' in which anything goes; we mock the faculty, the Church, and Christianity in general. I have written skits on subjects ranging from Sex with Angels to Moses and the Tabernacle Altar Guild in the Wilderness, and everyone has had a great time. The only rule we have is not to be cruel. It was my experience that premies had no sense of humor regarding the absurdities of premie life, or of M and his cronies. I did a comic strip for my local premie newsletter, and as long as I mocked other groups everyone was happy, but as soon as I poked fun at DLM and M, editorial censorship would rear its ugly head. It has nothing to do with respect; I love and respect the faculty at this seminary, and I love and respect my bishop, but I am allowed to poke fun at them. Premies don't because they are scared and humor-challenged. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 21:55:37 (EST)
From: Old Timer Email: None To: Denise Subject: Feeling Ripped Off Message: Haha. :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 27, 1999 at 09:54:12 (EST)
From: Denise Email: None To: Old Timer Subject: Feeling Ripped Off Message: I'm still enjoying K, but can't get other stuff out of my mind. How can I ever listen to M's satsang the same way after learning what I have? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 27, 1999 at 11:46:31 (EST)
From: g's mom Email: None To: Hi again Denise Subject: Feeling Ripped Off Message: I actually think I kind of get how you feel. Well, a little. The bizarre features of the cult at that time in the '70s are a common experience that many of the posters here share. How could a person make up a word or idea like agya, arti, darshan, holi, satsang? When we describe these things to eachother there is an immediate recognition of you were there too. I certainly think you were better off that you did not join the cult at this time. For some practical reasons too because it sounds like you were never encouraged to sacrifice your education, family or finances ( well maybe there you were) to the Guru. Who was not even called a guru by that time. I have not been involved since it 'normalized' but reading posts from those who have still those posts scream 'cult, cult , cult'. The inability to directly address an issue about wrongdoing by the guru or the organization the easiest example. There are other organizations many consider cults that do not have all the wierd trappings DLM did. People tell me Amway is run like a cult. Anyway, you did miss a lot of wierd stuff. Stuff so wierd that perhaps a person would just like to SEE it sort of like I enjoy going to the zoo or visiting foriegn countries. I could see wishing you had seen Holi, or a darshan line, or a crazed devotee swinging an Arti tray, or a community satsang. But that is different than wishing you had been sucked into the cult in its heyday, because it is likely you would have hurt your relationships with your family and possibly your education had you been. And also cause I think it may be harder to recover from the full on Lord of the Universe stuff we left than what you are considering leaving. On the other hand, who knows, it may have been easier for us in a way once we left, we can look back at all this weirdness and it is pretty easy to see the Guru for what he is. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 27, 1999 at 14:27:53 (EST)
From: JHB Email: None To: g's mom Subject: Amway Message: g's mom wrote:- 'There are other organizations many consider cults that do not have all the weird trappings DLM did. People tell me Amway is run like a cult.' Two premie friends of mine did try to recruit me into Amway a couple of years ago. The basic logic seemed fine to me - one of the biggest costs in getting a product to the customer is distribution. Amway's idea is to use a tree structure of distributors, each using their own homes, cars, etc., and give each person in the chain a share of the distribution costs saved. The problem I saw was that for it work, it was necessary for the people at the end of the chain to be able to run a successful business without the need to recruit more distributors. However, it was the need to recruit more distributors that was stressed, not sales. Before rejecting the idea, I attended an Amway event, strangely enough in a venue that had been previously used by M, and the similarities with DLM/EV were striking. Participants were encouraged to attend these events (about $30 entry fee), buy motivational books, listen to tapes of successful Amway people, and no doubt a few videos would have come later! At the time of attending the event, I was ready to join up, but fortunately, cool reflection afterwards turned me off the idea. Strange that the warning bells about M's cult did not ring then. John. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 27, 1999 at 22:41:52 (EST)
From: Denise Email: None To: g's mom Subject: Feeling Ripped Off Message: As I said earlier, I was around for community satsang for a couple years and even held it one day a week at my apartment. I understood that it used to take place nightly at the ashram the year before I received K, but by then it was only 2 or 3 nights a week. I even went to an ashram a couple times but it was too wierd for me because I wasn't seriously interested in K yet and it was in a bad neighborhood. G's Mom, you're right about my interest in experiencing something different and interesting, I guess that's basically it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 27, 1999 at 11:17:58 (EST)
From: Zac Email: None To: Part Timer Subject: You sound suspiciously like Message: that old timer PT. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 27, 1999 at 14:10:41 (EST)
From: Miloochie Email: None To: Denise Subject: OK...let's have Darshan! Message: Denise...OK, OK... Take my hand and I'll walk you back through the years to a place and time where you can experience the ultimate in Knowledge...DARSHAN! And, because you can only receive it once...HOLY BREATH!!! Come with me, be me...back...back...baaaaaaack........it's 1976. You've received Knowledge. You're practicing diligently. 'Going to lots of Satsang and performing lots of Service. All the while the expectation is growing in your Divine Light Mission community for the culmination of Knowledge...being 'at his feet,' receiving DARSHAN and because you're a new premie...HOLY BREATH. No matter how foolish it sounds, you want to see Maharaj Ji himself, in person. Orlando, Florida. It's warm and the air is fresh. The signs outside the hotels and motels read 'Welcome Divine Light Mission.' They're full, doing a brisk business. Premies are on the streets everywhere. Thousands and thousands of them. It's Jaysatchitinand everywhere you turn. Oh, so blissful. So...so...well...there's lots of premies to tell you what you will be experiencing. Friday night. There is the stage. An elaborate band shell, raised up maybe twenty feet from the ground (for better viewing and a reminder of who's the boss), 'constructed right at the edge of a small lake. A warning comes from the stage over the loud speakers. 'Don't swim or go into the lake, it's swarming with poisonous snakes.' You stare at the stage perched partly over the water...the same one that the Lord of the Universe will soon possess and the linked symbolism of the poisonous snakes is quickly squashed by your now almost-well-trained-mind to not be in your mind and forget such things. 'Shut up mind' you say to yourself inside and meditate. Oh, the anticipation is getting hot. The night is filled with music, singsongs, 'special' premies and Mahatmas (initiators) giving satsang (mental programming) from the stage over the elaborate sound system. All the while final touches continue with more and more flowers being lovingly placed around every edge of the stage areas. The Lord is coming. But, will he come tonight? Will he even speak to everyone through a phone line hook-up to the PA system? Keeping them waiting and guessing is part of the fun and it only gets the crowd whipped up even more. They chant and chant that they WANT their Guru Maharaj Ji. In only a few hours, you have heard hundreds crack the rumbling silence with yells of 'We love you Maharaji!' After what seems like an eternity, his message comes from the ONE himself. He's charismatic, seems spontaneous, sometimes funny, loving, a powerful speaker (he's seems so likable). He then speaks softly and all listen carefully as he mumbles, 'and I guess tomorrow morning, we'll have DARSHAN...' The thousands CHEER and drown out the rest of his sentence. It's Saturday morning. Once again it hits you that DARSHAN means you're going to kiss some guy's feet. 'Shut up mind.' You've seen the films, the weeping premies who've just gotten DARSHAN filing out in utter bliss, celestial, experiencing that ... that ... that ... well experience. You've just got to know now, after all this, what they're feeling after Darshan and Holy Breath. The Holy Breath thing is just as nagging to you. How is it that he can just curve his forefinger to touch the end of his thumb, pass it in front of his slightly parted lips and the new premie can be transformed for the rest of their life? You're going to find out. The curiosity has been killing you. On curiosity alone you'd do this even if your mind SCREAMS that it's illogical, pathetic and PURPOSELY demeaning. Hell, that's what Knowledge is all about, right?...getting beyond that ...that...that 'ego.' The whole festival is a plethora of 'we are just grains of sand...' 'just babies' 'meaningless in the scope of Maharaji's mission' etc. etc. etc. Yeah, YEAH, this is IT! You're giving yourself to this mission of peace and love and a whole new world and hell, you'll do whatever it takes! You'll sacrifice your dignity, your only sense of who you are, your uniqueness...ah the hell with all of that...you're ready for DARSHAN. The line-up goes on for blocks. You've been fighting your mind for hours, but you know inside from all the satsang (programming) that of course your mind wants you to run like hell in the opposite direction...the mind is evil...EVIL......EVIL, EVIL, EVIL! You're getting closer and closer to the specially designed Darshan stage, practically hidden in the middle of a painted plywood maze. You enter the first tunnel, inch by inch the followers in front of you move forward. Your heart beats louder and louder. The intensity of your EVIL mind that's trying to stop you from doing this is taking all the strength you have to fight it off. You're meditating so hard that you're actually hyperventilating. There's an overabundance of oxygen on your brain. Lightheaded, you keep a calm exterior because everyone is watching. If they only knew what you're really feeling about this, they'd never speak to you again. You'd be an outcast. No longer welcome at the party. No more friends. Only you and the devil (your mind) would be left to comfort each other. And hell, no more of these fun festivals! Finally, you come through the last part of the tunnels until you can actually see daylight. YES, this is what you could see from such a long distance away. Now you're almost there. A couple of security premies line the sides and watch for those bad people that could hurt your Lord. Your LORD? 'Yes, sure....yeah....OK...he's my LORD. Yes, I can DO this.' You lean out from the line, only feet away and see a tall premie moving people along by placing his hand behind their head and gracefully leading them out after they have kissed their Master's feet.. Well, foot. You enter the Darshan area. The sun hits your face and blinds you temporarily. You turn your vision to the right and there, sitting up four feet on the platform is the LORD and you say to yourself, 'Holy shit, he's as BIG AS A HOUSE!' 'Shut up mind' Quickly, you remember to cup your hand behind your right ear and indicate to GOD that you have never had Holy Breath and his hand comes up to his face, and without hardly looking at you, blows in your general direction for a split second, as his hand passes in front, and falls back to his side. His nonchalant, I could care less about this idiot reads to you as he's high on God, in fact he just might be God. That's what you've (others) have CONVINCED yourself it is. Nothing happens. NOTHING. But the release, that it's finally done with, fills you for a brief surge of energy. Two more steps and you turn again toward 'him.' Now you tilt your view down, stepping forward as the last premie in front of you is guided out and THERE IT IS, his FOOT. Your mind SCREAMS one last attempt to save you from a life of complete and utter nonsense, 'It's JUST A FOOT YOU CLASS A IDIOT!' But something distracts you for that nanosecond. The white sock that envelopes the glorious FOOT. Well, the ONCE white sock, because it's got about a hundred dark ugly dirty miserable smudges ALL OVER IT, and lipstick marks everywhere, strangers lip imprints, in multiple colors, EVERYWHERE...in fact, it's the DIRTIEST SOCKED FOOT YOU EVER SEEN IN YOUR LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AND...AND...you bend forward to KISS THIS GUY'S FOOT when the BONEHEAD premie who's rushing everyone through has already decided you're FINISHED when you haven't even STARTED and so he quickly and firmly places his hand behind your head and PUSHES HARD to the left ...BUT YOU ARE DETERMINED TO KISS GOD'S FOOT so between your trajectory of head going down towards his FOOT and this MEATHEAD premie's PROPELLING you out the exit tunnel your head is now RAMMED...WHAMMO right into the dirty socked FOOT. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, Darshan. OOOOUUUCCCCHHHH! it hurts. But you say nothing and stifle the scream. It's all occurred in one momentous second and suddenly you're in the dark exit tunnel heading away from your LORD's FOOT. Your mind has lost the battle. Your heart is broken. You're stunned. You slowly begin to break into sobbing tears from the sheer tension of the event. But the COMEDY (READ TRAGEDY) ISN'T OVER. As you walk into the sunlight again, you are greeted by the throngs of blissful who OBVIOUSLY recognize your SPIRITUAL AWAKENING and hug you in congratulations and jump up and down like silly clowns at your RAPTURE and place their hands in 'prayer mode' and roll their eyes up into their heads and SMILE that...that...that SMILE at you. Of course, the main reason your crying is your face feels like a used door stopper. Yards away, you crawl up onto a rock, sit and wail in absolute real agony. More onlookers see you and smile at your VISIBLE HAPPINESS. You go home and keep it inside. To tell what really happened could get you a good lecture (disguised as satsang) on meditating, giving to M more (money/belongings). There's not much room around the Mission for raw honesty (only DLM style honesty). You eventually share privately (without the details) that you didn't quite have as good an experience than the rest seemed to have. The wise old premie listens like a good mother and then gives you some bless-ed satsang, 'You were CLEANSING.' Darshan, Holy Breath...it's either a complete self-brainwash of manufactured joy or a real heart-breaking and humiliating destruction of your true self -- that's what handing over the reigns of your life does. It's designed to do just that -- cripple you and cause more dependence. -------------- Ahhhhhhhhhh (big sigh) Now THIS is satsang. Hope you enjoyed the trip, Denise. PS I had Darshan/Holi one other time. It was completely different, but had other strangeness. For another day. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 27, 1999 at 19:20:44 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Miloochie Subject: Hey, Miloochie, that's alright Message: Thanks for the tour. Well done. By the way, you've brought up something so important I think I'll start a thread on it: holy breath. Thanks again. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 09:45:20 (EST)
From: dv Email: None To: Miloochie-Wonderful! You Subject: OK...let's have Darshan! Message: took my laughing to a new level I could only describe as primal histerics! Took me a while to recover!:) Needs to go on 'best of ' list. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 11:08:12 (EST)
From: g's mom Email: None To: Miloochie Subject: Hey Drek read Miloochie Message: that was a very good post. What a memory. I think though you are describing 1975 not 1976. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 12:00:49 (EST)
From: Miloochie Email: None To: g's mom Subject: You're right! ..it was 1975 Message: So much of it is a blur. Perhaps I want (or rather had wanted) to wipe it from my memory. Remembering, and getting a healthy good laugh out of a private moment of utter 'cerebral sciatica' is genuinely liberating. I'm particularly referring to sitting on that rock afterwards. It's one of a half dozen images burned forever into my conciousness. Third camera (as they say), somehow I could actually see myself (with the snake lake in the bg), from about ten feet away, in my one-of-a-kind rainbow coloured tie dye silk shirt (that I wore for the 'special' occasion), soaked with an hour's flood of tears, till there was no more to shed. The 'gratitude' I'm feeling this morning is, as Diz has mentioned, a 'grace' (if you will) of finding this site, where others could appreciate a personal story that I have not confided in anyone, ever, these last twenty-some years. Cheers, Miloochie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 14:17:16 (EST)
From: Bobby Email: None To: Red, Robyn and Miloochie Subject: responses now 'inactive' Message: 'When the Red, Red Robyn comes Bob, Bob, Bobbin' along....' Miloochie sounds like a river in the state of Mississippi, USA. Anyway, just to let you guys know that I recently wrote some responses on the thread we were on, and the responses moved quickly into the 'inactive' section. You can read my responses there. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 02:09:27 (EST)
From: Red Email: None To: Bobby Subject: Floating Gum Leaves Message: Hi Bobby,I was touched by your honesty and depth of feeling.I got goose bumps reading your post.I've also given a lot of thought as to whether I create my own difficulties and am of much the same opinion as you;I think looking back at my life that I have created most of them and that some were 'given'(nice word Bobby).What I do own 100% though is the way I react to what happens in my life.I don't understand the Buddists attitude to suffering,'that it's intrinsic to existence'.I suffered a lot growing up but now I think I'm happy,but maybe it's all relative and I am suffering now but am just too stupid to realize it :) I don't know who Mr Natural is but I like his style.Sometimes I think we take ourselves a bit too seriously and it's the quiet moments at our 'rivers'that give life meaning.I sure do agree with Mr Naturals black friend. All the best Bobby Red Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 16:24:19 (EST)
From: Miloochie Email: None To: Bobby Subject: responses now 'inactive' Message: I read them. Yeah, the discussions seem like they are filling up faster and I've only been here about ten days. Addictive? Yes, and it takes more time out of an already busy day, but I'm finding it very well worth it. A key area of myself that I've been frustrated in getting progress in is already 'shifting.' I'm purposely giving it a real good shake because it seems I've been scraping away at it with the effectiveness of a butter knife on a granite boulder. Almost all areas of my life have been dramatically improved over the years (healing, personal progress, whatever...), yet one key area has eluded me (one that effects all other areas). The problem began when I got involved with DLM, M and just wanted 'that' simple, practical tool. Free? What a price I've paid. Wow. Anyway...I digress. Miloochie: (this is also for Diz) It's just a nickname that a great friend of mine used to call me. 'Hadn't seen her in years -- moved to another town (Country). She died a couple of years ago. I'm not ready yet to reveal my identity (like put up my journey), but I can see that's very likely to happen. My intuition tells me that it's probably a key step to dropping a big hunk of my remaining cult baggage. We'll see. That part I can allow a little patience for. It's been twenty-five years. I've had my share of traumas and will ease into that one. Maybe. As for digging out the remaining concrete slag of misguided, gullible, well-intentioned im-practical nonsense...I've got the big jack-hammer out and it's working very well indeed. I may still find a home for using the med techniques, while separating the associated garbage, like some seem to be able to do. I am reading with interest some of the perspectives that even the meditation should be put under a great deal of scrutiny. Certainly it holds the very link that causes anyone to buy into the rest of the BS and it can for those who experience it, have a strong charge associated (like the heat of a soldering gun that re-shapes a normally hard metal) which can infuse deep, hard to remove beliefs (no matter how concious one is of their inherent irrational or destructive properties). I digressed again. What is this thread about??? Yours truly, 'Temporarily Scattered' or 'Anarchy, Hard At Work' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 13:56:41 (EST)
From: Denise Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Please Define... Message: From the Red Nighty, chapter 1, I saw the word 'Charanamrit' several times. What the heck is it? Also, I think I understand what 'agya' means, but please define so that I may be sure. Thanks for the history and Sanskrit (or Hindi) lessons! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 14:31:22 (EST)
From: John Email: None To: Denise Subject: Hey, didja ever kiss his feet? Message: charanamrit was like, something the guru touched, or ate, or drank part of, or blessed, or something, I was never that clear about what the hell it was. I never had any interest in it, even though i'd hear stories like from the guru's personal valet about how high they'd all get eating the guru's left overs. agya means direction, or command, or order. So the guru's agya is his command. So, have you ever had darshan, you know, kissed his feet? Or is there now such a thing as darshan, or being in the guru's presence? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 15:44:38 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: John Subject: No, John Message: Charnamarit is water that Maharaji had stuck his feet into. All the ashrams had some, and we drank it morning and evening in a little ceremony after we sang arti and pranamed on the floor in front of his picture. The partially eaten food and that stuff is PRASHAD. If Maharaji took a bite out of something, the rest was PRASHAD and a very precious commodity among premies. Maharaji used to intentionally, so I've been told, leave uneaten food for that purpose so the premies could have it as prashad, although considering how fat he was I don't think he did that too often. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 15:55:41 (EST)
From: John Email: None To: JW Subject: That's really funny... Message: You see I was so grossed out by that stuff that I totally repressed the memory. but wait, I don't ever remember 'drinking' it. I remember we used to ... God, I swear I can't remember!!! This is great!! This proves I was never really a premie! I really cannot remember doing anything with the water. I remember the candle and you'd pass your hands very professionaly over the candle and then sort of ... throw it in the direction of your third eye. Wait, I am remembering a little vial of water that used to be poured into my hands. But, what did I do with the water once it was in my hands? I vaguely remember washing my face with it. Oh well, sorry Denise for confusing you. JW's right, I was thinking of prashad, another disgusting memory. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 16:18:58 (EST)
From: Selene Email: None To: John Subject: That's really funny... Message: John I had exactly the same thing happen with memory loss - I asked Barney what it was or what people did with it, and he wrote this hilarious answer. After I read it I remembered that I had drank some once!! Maybe there is something to be said for memory loss in certain cases. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 16:20:06 (EST)
From: Too gross to say..... Email: None To: John Subject: Arti trays... Message: yep...I remember that Holy Water thing. I used to have an envelope with some of his hair in it. Someone probably groomed Rover and thought it would be funny to pass out the dogs hair and tell premies it was Miragey's. Was that hairshad? I am suprised we did not save divine excretions....Miragey just used this toilet Brother Ji, and he forgot to flush, lets cut it in half and put it on a nice little pillow in wooden box. Fluffy Bai, if you promise not to tell anyone I will let you look in the box....Maybe Monica saved some of the Divine ultimate propagation tool like the other Monica did...now that would have been a premie treasure...charnamit, prasad...nothin compared with Divine seed! Just went to the top and took my name OFF this post! Also, didn't we use ghee(clarified butter) for the cotton to make the little fire on the Arti tray? And someone would wildly swing that thing around during the song. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 16:32:27 (EST)
From: Selene Email: None To: Too gross to say..... Subject: my vote for best of Message: What do you say Roger? It's a good one. Along with Barney's old post about how they cooked it, shot it up, snorted it, whatever they did - douched with it? I wouldn't be surprised. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 16:47:28 (EST)
From: JHB Email: None To: Too gross to say..... Subject: Arti trays... Message: My wife (sadly since died), before we married, was in the garden at the Highgate house in London, heard that M was having a bath, so she waited until the bathwater was drained, and put her head under the drainpipe. Can the lord's bathwater ever be considered dirty? John. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 27, 1999 at 21:53:34 (EST)
From: chr Email: None To: JHB Subject: Arti trays... Message: These revelations make the one I was going to talk about pale into insignificance. A few of the sisters in one of the ashrams I was in managed to get hold of a pair of M's socks. They drooled and wept over them and even slept with them. Even at the time we thought they were crazy. I remember trying to see some signicance in them but all I could see were a pair of silk socks. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 16:19:15 (EST)
From: JHB Email: None To: JW Subject: Holy Water, Holy Relics Message: Also, the water touched by the Holy Lotus Feet was infinitely dilutable, at least it was in a the ashrams I lived in. Speaking of Holy Relics I still have a bit of the carpet laid at Reigate, bits of glitter sprinkled in the jet of water at that festival where He squirted coloured water all over us, and, holiest of all, a bit of the sandalwood garland Marolyn wore when they got married. Post bids here with your Amex Card No, expiry date, and email address. John. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 16:48:03 (EST)
From: Denise Email: None To: Y'all Subject: Holy Items Message: Thanks for your input. John, no, I never got the chance to kiss his feet, but I did know about it. I have a feeling this was something the older premies were supposed to keep their mouth shut about but they didn't. I hear that darshan is still occasionally available at Amaroo and in India. Never got the chance to go to the Holi Festival (the one with the colored water), but was really sad about this one. Actually, if that was still happening I think I would go just for the experience. M has been showing videos of it (or was about 6 months ago) and there is a recent song in the background that I like called 'Like the Rain' . ('Like the rain your love came calling...') It makes me jealous of those who got to be there, they look so blissed out in the video. I do have the words to Arti and did sing them with my roommate in college ( a premie), but didn't know there was a whole service that went along with it. Tell me about it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 11:49:28 (EST)
From: John Email: None To: Denise Subject: Holy Items Message: 'I do have the words to Arti and did sing them with my roommate in college ( a premie), but didn't know there was a whole service that went along with it.' Huh? whoever told you that is pulling your leg. I love the tune of arti, actually there were several parts to it, the slow part, the fast part. The only way any of it made sense was to think of whoever it is you are singing to as the force within oneself that is keeping you alive. Like the words, 'you are my mother, you are my father...' I mean, if the guru was not actually claiming to be my father and mother then why did he have us sing that song to him? And he'd dress up in his royal krishna outfit with a crown and then have us sing it to him. Why? I understand all of that is in the past, but you see I'm the kind of person who likes to know why. It's healthy to ask why. It's not healthy to suppress why. My entire time as a premie was an extended period of suppressing why. Have you ever gone to a question and answer period with him? Did he seem open to discussing anything and everything? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 16:58:31 (EST)
From: Garth Email: None To: JHB Subject: Holy Water, Holy Relics Message: I've been out of the loop for too long! This ritual cannibalism, hair fetish, contagious magic stuff is too much! My Anthropology Prof is gonna love this; should earn me an A+! Oh, well its no worse than 'drink this wine, this is my Blood, eat this wafer, this is my Flesh'. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 14:32:25 (EST)
From: ham Email: None To: Garth Subject: Holy Water,Holy Relics Message: 'Oh, well its no worse than 'drink this wine, this is my Blood, eat this wafer, this is my Flesh'' Quite so Garth; any religion is just a socially acceptable cult. Sorry Helen & whoever, although those unitarians seem to have half-accepted this anyway from what you say about it all, their doctrine flexibility etc Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 16:50:40 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: ham Subject: Religion v. Cult Message: Quite so Garth; any religion is just a socially acceptable cult. Tom Wolfe (not my favorite writer) said that 'a cult is just a religion without political power.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 27, 1999 at 01:46:45 (EST)
From: Jethro Email: None To: JW Subject: Religion v. Cult Message: 'a cult is just a religion without political power.' Brilliant! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 27, 1999 at 12:23:04 (EST)
From: g's mom Email: None To: JW Subject: I've never bought this Message: on a gut level most 'religions' do not strike me as cults do. Perhaps they are just lousy cults who are not very good at controlling their members. But my neighbors who go to Church or Synagougue just do not have that glassy eyes looney smile of your typical cult member, nor do they display the essential defensiveness and loss of logical thought. Most religions support families rather than tear them apart. Encourage personal growth rather than supress it. They encourage education. I acknowledge there are fundamentalist Christians who act cultlike but most of my Christian and Jewish friends do not act like they are in a cult in any respect. In fact I envy their ability to have a faith and NOT behave as if they are in a cult. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 01:13:02 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: g's mom Subject: I've never bought this Message: I think that most religions allow some disent; there is no real 'party line' in my church, although the tradionalists wish that there was. Within Christianity there are many different schools regarding who Jesus was and much discussion regarding the historical Jesus. I read several magazines which show that Judaism also includes much diverse thought regarding the nature of God. A decent religion allows discussion and searching and gives room for doubt. I am also very much aware that fundamentalists of all faiths want to deny any intellectual activity regarding theology. There has been much wrong performed in the name of God and religion, but that doesn't make all religions evil. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 10:57:41 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: HE ANSWERED ME!!!!! Message: Well, finally Maharaji's addressed some of the questions and concerns I've had all these years. You guys should really think of writing him to if you hope to ever have any of that love again. Here's how Maharaji puts it (in various cute boxes) on his 'Email Responses' page: 'Emails Received' In the 10 days since the launching of this website on February 13, 1999, I have received a total of 1,007 Email messages: 633 Comments 250 Letters 43 Questions 81 Requests ************************************************** Thank You Thank you for such an overwhelming response to this web site. Most of the Email has been congratulatory. I am so glad you like and enjoy this site. It took a lot of hard work, time, and effort. *************************************************** Invitations People have sent me invitations to visit their countries and/or cities. I will, as much as possible, try to build them into the upcoming schedule. Already the requests outnumber the days left in this year. **************************************************** Back to Knowledge Some people who had stopped practicing Knowledge wrote that they are making efforts to come back. See its goodness and follow your heart. Focus on what is important. The decision to practice Knowledge or not will always be yours. Many times other things take on an aura of false importance. Know the difference. Let the inspiration to return to Knowledge or to stay with it come from a sincere place. Make your decisions with clarity. Welcome back. ******************************************************* Expertise Some have offered their expertise in various fields. I will keep this in mind. ******************************************************** Enjoying I am glad to read that so many of you are enjoying the techniques of Knowledge and enriching your lives with the sweet feeling of being alive. Everyday is a gift and it needs to be accepted. Every moment holds within it the fruits of joy and they need to be savored. Confusion comes but doesn't need to be courted; clarity comes and it does. We are fragile, but strong. In our fragility we need to remember our strength, and in our strength we need to remember our fragility. ********************************************************** Technical Assistance Some of you have had difficulties downloading certain features such as music or pictures. Soon a technical assistance page will be added. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 11:15:26 (EST)
From: John Email: None To: Jim Subject: How blissful! Message: Wow, he sounds so together! See premies, he's having a very successful life as a ... whatever it is that he is. You don't have to worry about what we're doing to him and his mission in this world. We can't possibly cause any problems for him. He's already got more places to go and visit than he has days in the year. He is so focused he doesn't even see you and your petty problems and concerns, Jim. He is like Arjuna the great hunter. When Arjuna took aim, all he saw was the eye of the bird. Only the eye! That's M for ya! He moves on, we can only hope to grab his coattails and go along for the ride. Happy new breath, one and all!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 17:37:26 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: John Subject: How blissful! Message: So true, John!! Just like when Rick was at his wit's end and requested to speak to Maharaji he was told 'Maharaji doesn't do special requests' You start doing that and they expect you to hug their snot-face kids, fer cryin' out loud!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 12:03:22 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: HE ANSWERED ME!!!!! Message: In the 10 days since the launching of this website on February 13, 1999, I have received a total of 1,007 Email messages: 633 Comments 250 Letters 43 Questions 81 Requests People have sent me invitations to visit their countries and/or cities. I will, as much as possible, try to build them into the upcoming schedule. Already the requests outnumber the days left in this year. Ah,ah,ah. Caught you in a lie, LOTU. By my calculations there's a lot more than 81 days left in this year. So be more careful, OK? I just love to nitpick. Hee, hee... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 12:33:49 (EST)
From: barney Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Jim, it's pretty clear to me Message: Jim, This is your own doing and you've got to take your medicine now. It's quite obvious that you are on your way back to the fold. You have no choice. So, scrape the rust and goo off of your fingers and get under the sheets. The bliss awaits you. To help you in your efforts I'll purchase the next baragon that comes up for sale on ebay.com and have it sent to you. JSCA! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 12:45:54 (EST)
From: Garth Email: None To: Jerry Subject: HE ANSWERED ME!!!!! Message: It is a measure of one's programming to get 'blissed out' on inspirational platitudes culled from Reader's Digest and the like. If I went about spouting such cliched rubbish, I'd be categorized as simple-minded. There's a difference between child-like and childish; although I and others like me were initiated decades ago at an age and in an age (the 60's) when we could rightly be called innocent, most of us matured and 'left chidish things behind'. Those still premies determinedly resisted growing up, because doing so would mean leaving Paradise behind and actually taking responsibility for their actions, instead of whining that nothing matters but Bliss. What a cop-out! The contempt M must feel, and rightly so, for the simpletons that suck up sentiments not out of place on Sesame Street and construe them as the words of God.I realize it's probably difficult to admit one's been victimized but do it now; stop wasting your lives worshipping images of your own making. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 15:25:43 (EST)
From: Orlando Email: None To: Jerry Subject: 81 requests Message: dear nitpicker depends on what the requests are... if it is to visit 81 different cities and this is added to all other visits that he is planning to do this year...the requests would outnumber the number of available days in the year hee, hee Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 15:59:59 (EST)
From: Nitpicker Email: None To: Orlando Subject: 81 requests Message: depends on what the requests are... if it is to visit 81 different cities and this is added to all other visits that he is planning to do this year...the requests would outnumber the number of available days in the year He didn't say that, Orlando. He said the requests (81) outnumber the 'days left' (not days 'available') in this year (309). He didn't make any reference to how many requests he's already filling. He should have been more specific if that's what he meant. After all, it is the master's 'clarity' which defines him, no? Hee, hee... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 16:02:40 (EST)
From: JHB Email: None To: Orlando Subject: 81 requests Message: Well, one of the requests was from me requesting he change the bit about never being the leader before he is publicly exposed as a liar. Roll on details about the other 80. John. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 17:42:21 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: JHB Subject: 81 requests Message: Yeah, I wonder if the many emails he got that said 'You are a bloodsucking, lying vampire' were counted as requests?? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 17:48:22 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: JHB Subject: 81 requests Message: Well, my e-mail had a bunch of comments, at least two requests (the he quit being such a coward and accept responsbility)and a couple of questions (like how could he be such a liar and doesn't he have any same). So, I might have been counted in several categories. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 19:19:09 (EST)
From: JHB Email: None To: JW Subject: Email Categories - 81 requests Message: When you send an email to his Balyogeshwarness you are requested to specify the type of email. The default I think is comment. I have assumed that the breakdown was according to the type you selected. I sent two emails, one comment and one request. I hope both are included in his statistics. John. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 19:51:40 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: JHB Subject: Email Categories - 81 requests Message: Yes, very soon there will appear one of those little, meaningless bar graphs showing the total e-mails and separate bars for each of the categories. He seems to like that stuff, like Ross Perot does. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 13:04:04 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com To: Jim Subject: That's no answer Message: I can't see an answer there, Jim, to the questions you posed. Not does he answer my email to him or Gail's. He simply DOES NOT even acknowledge any of the questions or possibilities which have been put to him. That's no way to deal with things. And as far as I'm concerened he's just completely ignoring anything but congatulatory emails and by his refusal to acknowledge yours, mine, Gail's, Jean-Michel's and others' emails he is telling us to sod off. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 15:04:09 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Sir David, Jim, Gail Subject: That's no answer Message: What did you guys expect? No offense, but the guy runs a cult. I know you know this and are just proving a point. Right? With respect, VP P.S. John, your post above made me howl with laughter (as usual) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 15:53:02 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Jim Subject: HE ANSWERED ME!!!!! Message: 633 Comments 250 Letters 43 Questions 81 Requests Such descriptive categories! I notice there wasn't a category for COMPLAINTS, nor one for THREATS. Perhaps Comments and Letters could include: Demands for the return of donations Comments about Maharaji's body and physical appearance Complaints and demands from former mistresses Letters of appreciation from cognac manufacturers and distributors Accusations of blatant lying on his website Requests for charnamarit and prashad from various countries Offers of dancing lessons Leaving Knowledge: Some have said thay've had enough and are through with me. Thank you for your support. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 16:22:12 (EST)
From: John Email: None To: Jim Subject: Analysis of M's words Message: 'Let the inspiration to return to Knowledge or to stay with it come from a sincere place' This is just pure 100 percent nonsense! And I used to think he was profound?! What the hell does 'come from a sincere place' actually mean, in plain practical language? Is there an insincere place inside us that we don't want things to come from? What would be an example of letting the inspiration to practice come from an insincere place? What is a sincere place anyway? What does sincere mean? What is a place? I believe the main reason I left you M, if you're reading this, is all you do is talk, there is no action, and the words have no real meaning. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 16:39:00 (EST)
From: Garth Email: None To: John Subject: Analysis of M's words Message: C'mon guys, it's not even Him, the English is too good! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 12:36:26 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: John Subject: Analysis of M's words Message: Good analysis, John. We'd really be in a quandary if the inspiration to practice Knowledge came from an 'insincere' place, wouldn't we? 'Well you see Big M, I'd like to practice but I just feel so INSINCERELY inspired. I'm waiting for some SINCERE inspiration...' No wonder fatboy's always saying 'listen with your heart'. It gives him license to use words in as ridiculous a fashion as he pleases and nobody's going to call him on it. If you do, it's because you're in your mind, not in your heart. What a fucking scam. It's perfect, actually. Telling a person he/she is not listening with their heart because they're actually THINKING about something is the perfect deflection of any criticism. And you're fucked once you buy into it. Once you believe M's scam that you can only 'understand' him if you 'listen with your heart' you become your own censor. From that day forward, any doubts you have about M is because you're not 'listening with your heart'. From that day forward, as long as you believe that, he's got you. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 19:18:04 (EST)
From: Diz Email: None To: Jim Subject: HE ANSWERED ME!!!!! Message: Jim, I've got to admire your persistence. And I am so glad it's finally been rewarded by an answer. You must be very happy. I can't quite see the link between your questions and His answers, but I guess that you know in your heart. Me, I've never managed to get a straight answer out of MJ EVER, despite many attempts. NO WAY I'm going to bash my head against that brick wall again! Guess I just don't have no faith. Yuk, I hate all that 'it's all so beautiful' stuff! Talk about denial! Diz Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 00:04:57 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: None To: Diz Subject: HE ANSWERED ME!!!!! Message: It's all so beautiful that he didn't see his own Mother for 18 years (correct Bill?) and is at loggerheads with two of his brothers. Now I remember a time way back in ancient history in 1972 when I was sitting in his lardship's divine residence in Highgate, England. His most esteemed highness was sitting upstairs and we, the specks of dust that we were, were sitting downstairs. We were all watching a TV programme which was a documentary on cults. Now why couldn't he have watched the same TV we were watching? Anyway, on the TV programme they revealed the four sacred and most holy of holy meditation techniques. Maharaji went spare and exclaimed, 'NO MORE KNOWLEDGE IN THE WEST!' Now I felt pretty lucky because I'd received it already. Phew, I thought, I just got in in time. Glen Whittaker came downstairs all ashen faced to tell us the news and that was the end of Maharaji's mission in the West. Why did he have to change his mind! Ol Bal Bagwan could have taken over as the other Lord of the Universe and history would be very different. Bal Bagwan Ji, for all his faults, was not a hard-line Lord of the Universe like his brother. He looked the part (back then) and things would have been very different. Now he looks fat and mean and has become just another Indian Sat Guru. I know I'm rambling now and I must get back to bed. When I first heard about Gumraji, I was told he was an incarnation of God. I never batted an eyelid and thought it quite normal to have an incarnation of God around the place. Then later, Glen Whittaker said that Bal Bagwan Ji was Jesus and Maharaji was the Father. That's cool, I thought in my ex-acid way. These are the cruelest rippoffs. The Rawat family posing as saviours when they can't even save themselves. Now, I know an incarnation of God that I see every day. Two of them actually. And they're my daughters. More love there than Maharaji ever knew. Anyone can be an incarnation of God. The Rawats don't have a monopoly. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 02:07:05 (EST)
From: Jethro Email: None To: Sir David Subject: A titbit Message: 'Anyway, on the TV programme they revealed the four sacred and most holy of holy meditation techniques...' I knew the husband of the woman who revealed the techniques on TV. He told me that BBJ roared at him that he would go to hell and that what his wife did was the gravest sin. He and his subsequently divorced. Anyway just thought I'd mention it. Regards Jethro Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 05:18:27 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: None To: Jethro Subject: A titbit Message: Perhaps I was being a bit too lenient with Bubblegum Ji. He was better looking than Maharaji though and wasn't fat. Mind you, I was better looking than Maharaji and I wasn't fat, so perhaps I could have been the Lord of the Universe. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 06:33:17 (EST)
From: Jethr Email: None To: Sir David Subject: A titbit Message: '....I was better looking than Maharaji and I wasn't fat, so perhaps I could have been the Lord of the Universe.' Yes you could have been.......and you're British...now THAT would be a perfect concept blower....a British LOTU!!!! :>)) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 09:49:57 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Everyone Subject: New Journeys entry Message: I placed Tony's Journeys entry online this morning. I just love adding new entries :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 00:37:00 (EST)
From: bill Email: None To: Brian Subject: New Journeys entry Message: Thank you for the story Tony. It was an honest tale and interesting. I do see where a father who is kind and understanding and real can be so good for a kid and a father who is mean causes real trauma for a child. Best wishes to you. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 05:04:37 (EST)
From: niki ann Email: None To: Everyone Subject: fury Message: that , that is. is. that, that is not, is not. is that it? it is. but then again, only what is, is. and it is very berry holy. get that, i pray i drewll Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 05:45:23 (EST)
From: AJW Email: None To: niki ann Subject: fury Message: Hi niki, Very profound. Did you do lots of acid in the 60s? AJW Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 09:38:45 (EST)
From: Happy Email: None To: AJW Subject: fury Message: Oh, it was acid, that explains it. It thought niki ann was just drooling. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 13:07:50 (EST)
From: Bobby Email: None To: Happy Subject: acid survey Message: I'd really like to see a survey of ex-premies and premies. How many of us ex-premies or premies around in the sixties or seventies did acid? How do you feel about acid in retrospect? Are you glad you did it, or would you rather not have been involved? Did acid harm you? How do you feel about your involvement with Maharaji in retrospect? Are you glad you were involved, or would you rather not have been involved? Did Maharaji harm you? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 16:07:03 (EST)
From: ham Email: None To: Bobby Subject: acid survey Message: IF I HADN'T HAVE DONE ACID, I'D NEVER HAVE GOT INTO HOUSE MUSIC. It and the culture surrounding it have affected me as much, if not more deeply, AND REALISTICALLY than everything ever, still including the magic. Don't regret doing acid one little bit, just wish I'd have grown up in a slightly less, only slightly less, dysfunctional family. When I burnt out on acid, I just did not have quite enough self-esteem when I was searchig for natural acid replacement therapy. Maybe if the primal scream crowd would have taken under 25's (my first choice after 30 months looking)..... GM, pile of shite, always had problems with, techniques different matter, wish I'd understood more about how trippy experiences are built into the body. But then science was still hung up on an anti-spiritual trip, so I was ripeish for stuff from the 'experiential' side which left me open to side baggage. Doesn't everyone see their mistakes in a very painful way in their forties? But then my neuroses saved me from the full effects of the guru trip, ironic or what! Have nothing but TOTAL admiration for those leaving now, after twenty odd years. Anyone who comes through that, deserves pride of place here,in my book. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 17:23:36 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: ham Subject: acid survey Message: IF I HADN'T HAVE DONE ACID, I'D NEVER HAVE GOT INTO HOUSE MUSIC. Ham, do you listen to any of today's rock at all? Groups like Collective Soul or Blues Traveler? These guys are as fine as any rock band there's ever been. I regret having taken acid. On one hand it expanded my awareness. That's good. But it also instilled in me a paranoia that ruled my reason for years. It was also acid which got me into sprituality, a trip I think I could have done without. The end result of that was Maharaji. If I could do it over again I would do it without acid. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 15:57:14 (EST)
From: ham Email: None To: Jerry Subject: acid survey Message: Jerry always listening to new stuff from all directions, haven't heard either of the bands you mention but NOTHING I've heard from a rock based angle has given me any real inspiration to the point of tinglin, hairs on my forearms standing up etc etc Having said that I'm not hearing a lot of new house music that does it major league big time, but it still seems so much more subtle and musically aware, anti-authoritarian & positive with a basis in reality (that's the breakbeat end of house) as against the dodgy hippy end of house. The sublety of the sound programming I still find radical, and the use of sub-bass with bass and kick-drums, especially in 'speed garage' and newer drum & bass still VERY moving. I know the phrase is gonna sound familiar, but until you've been out dancing all night to it it's hard to explain. Should add that while dj'ing at work recently been playing a lot of 64-66, mostly British, and Tamla stuff same period and thoroughly enjoying it, in a very light way. In 1990 was still enjoying rock, Stone Roses, Happy Mondays, Husker Du. Didn't listen or hear a single rock song from 90-96. The acid paranoia one is interesting. People I've known through the 90's, mostly 15-30 take drugs at a level that is/was almost awe inspiring, including incredible amounts of mix & match, but they will not touch strong acid, mushrooms, & a lot will not touch ketamine. A lot of that reaction is based upon fear of paranoia. I've found it fascinating to see a generation obliterating themselves right up to the edge but still holding down regular work, careers etc They are sussed about drugs at a level we certainly weren't. Just think back to the number of people who I know who completely flipped on acid, came close myself, whereas very few people I know through house music went even remotely close to that edge. After ten years most people are cleaning up, and it's nothing to do with careers or age etc. Think they learnt a lot from our generation. As soon as the scene got close to bliss-out nirvana land, and it was there big time for two-three years, when it started going a bit la-la the whole culture started grounding itself. Just another very impressive thing about the mob I know. They never saw those 'experiences' as spiritual, they're all very anti-guru. Couple of people I know saw gm videos 90-91 and pissed themselves with laughter. Typical comment, 'he's such an obvious used-car salesman, how could you Mike'.... As for myself, exploring paranoia has been fascinating over the last few years, & I've been through a lot of it, one of the best tools I found for dealing with gm's little mind insertion games he's so fond of, that's apart from prising open human bollocks, dark side lies etc, Places like Kosovo, East Timor, the Iraqi issue just reflect the dark shit inside all of us, as well as the geo-political conspiracies that fuel economic growth & global destruction, & paranoia has been excellent for dealing with all of that, if a little draining at times. Para certainly hasn't helped from the relationship side, although it's saved me a lot of grief.. I think if I'd been through the whole ashram thing, especially after an acid leading to spirituality to gm number I'd regret it big time too. Lot of empathy for you Jerry, since you come over as a really decent geezer. Hope that doesn't come over as too patronizing. If you wanted I'd be up for tapes of the bands you mention? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 19:16:16 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: ham Subject: acid survey Message: I think if I'd been through the whole ashram thing, especially after an acid leading to spirituality to gm number I'd regret it big time too. I wasn't in an ashram, Ham. I was a fringe premie. But I regret having gone only there. Lot of empathy for you Jerry, since you come over as a really decent geezer. Hope that doesn't come over as too patronizing. I take it as a compliment, Ham. Thanks. Send me an address and I'll be glad to send you a tape. My email is What_Gives_Huh@MSN.Com Also, if you can get into it, I wouldn't mind if you put together a mix of your favorite stuff for me. I'd be really interested in knowing what you get a lift from. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 19:13:32 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: Bobby Subject: acid survey Message: Well, I did a lot of acid, before and after M. I don't regret it, but I wouldn't take any now. Actually, the experiences I had on acid were much more powerful and life changing than the 'beautiful feeling' for which our premie friends are so thankful. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 19:28:35 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Bobby Subject: acid survey -- Why? Message: Bobby, do you think there might be some connection between whether someone has taken acid, and what they think of it, and how they think or feel about their involvement with Maharaji? Is that why you are asking this? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 20:08:44 (EST)
From: Bobby Email: None To: JW Subject: acid survey -- Why? Message: Not particularly the connection you posit. Seems that quite a few of us that got into Maharaji in the 70's were psychedelicized. Many of us went for mind-altering experiences. For some of us, we thought a spiritual connection would be a next step beyond acid. I thought it would be interesting to see what people made of their experiences with and after acid and with and after Maharaji. Who of us regretted acid and/or regretted Maharaji? Some of us had good experiences with Maharaji/Knowledge, some of us had bad. Same with acid. Or some combination. I find it all very interesting. I did a lot of acid in the late sixties and was pretty involved with Maharaji during parts of the seventies. Both affected me in powerful ways. I regret neither. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 23:30:33 (EST)
From: bill Email: None To: Bobby Subject: acid survey -- Why? Message: Hams comment at the end was helpful. Hello Bobby, A lot of cultures around the world have a history of smokeing or eating plants around them that give them some buzz. Beer showed up at least in early egypt. Rye bread that was spoiled could make LSD and there are stories in history about people that were affected by that. Peyote eating indians went mad and started getting cannibalistic and that is the newest theory of why the Anastazi left new mexico. Having spent a few days with 5 sisters recently, I lean to the idea that relationships are just about THE ultimate reason for being here on this planet. Kids in the house just want close relationships of love. All the wrecked people have stories that make me wish that someone really actually loved them when they were young. Many women long for someone to show that they love them. I was in the library tonight and on the bathroom doors and walls in the kids library section and on the reading cubicle walls were hearts with JS loves RN and so forth inside. The junior high is next door. People want someone that cares. Acid and maharaji didnt accomplish that key thing and actually created a barrier. I know sometimes we go through eras where we are happy to have everyone at a distance, and human nature helps make us vulnerable to all kinds of feelings that are miles away from the rich joy of sensitive closeness, still, I think I see more and more evidence around me that everyone actually would like to live thier time out having as rich a moment with those around them that are capable of closeness, and love as possible. Concentration gives all that acid could possibly give, and prem?love rawat? was horribly misnamed. He was/is so far away from that. He is a pied piper that was poison to someone whose heart was actually after loving those they loved. Many people smoke cigarettes to feel thier breath. I would trade the risk of cancer over years of false constricting choking delusion. I am lucky no one died yet. Even though I missed years that have died. The time was stolen by a liar. So, yes I regret. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 00:24:13 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: bill Subject: Bill you are eloquent Message: Beautiful post, Bill. I will go to sleep now with these thoughts of yours...I agree that what we can create through relationships and I would add, through art, is better than any drugs...I like the way you said it better, though. Sir D also said below that his little girls are incarnations of God far more beautiful than GM and his screwy dysfunctional family...that thought also warms my heart on this snowy night G'nite forum friends Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 16:13:36 (EST)
From: ham Email: None To: bill Subject: acid survey -- Why? Message: You still believe in love Bill, that's impressive. Re closeness to others I'm sure you're right, probably still yearn for it but think it's a complete delusion. Personally settle for half-contact AND chemicals, feel much better for disembowelling my strong romantic streak. But then I'm an Essex boy, and any Brits will know the implications of that! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 16:40:02 (EST)
From: Ophelia Email: None To: ham Subject: To Ham Message: Ham wrote: Personally settle for half-contact AND chemicals, feel much better for disembowelling my strong romantic streak. But then I'm an Essex boy, and any Brits will know the implications of that! You'll have to explain the part about being an Essex boy, but I can certainly relate to the first part. Acid was my 'drug of choice.' And I consider 'falling in love' an illness to be avoided at all costs. I'm a loving person, but romance wrung me out dry. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 16:58:06 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Ophelia Subject: Romance v. Friendship Message: And I consider 'falling in love' an illness to be avoided at all costs. I'm a loving person, but romance wrung me out dry. This is where gay people might really have an advantage over straight people, in my opinion. There are these tremendous friendships that develop, non-romantic, but very, very close, closer than family or any love relationship I've ever had. They are widespread and much more long-lasting, and much more fulfilling, than romantic relationships. I think these kind of developed out of a need to band together for safety and support, and also because gay people aren't allowed to marry. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 16:53:59 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: bill Subject: acid survey -- Why? Message: Having spent a few days with 5 sisters recently, I lean to the idea that relationships are just about THE ultimate reason for being here on this planet. Bill, I couldn't agree with you more. It's the easiest thing to take for granted, but when you have people who love you, and you love them back, it doesn't get any better than that. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 17:05:26 (EST)
From: Rick Email: None To: bill Subject: Yes, Bill-eloquent post (nt) Message: nt Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 27, 1999 at 07:07:44 (EST)
From: bill Email: None To: bill Subject: aw shucks (nt) Message: lasijtf;oirflm Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 23:59:19 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Bobby/Fr Mickey Subject: Yes-to LSD, No to Maharaji Message: My LSD experiences had a positive effect on me but I think I was foolish to take it, especially since I think my drug use affected my fertility and perhaps my immune system. I would never take it now LSD was much more postitive than GM. You've probably guessed that my GM experience did not have a lot of redeeming features to it for me--especially since I already had a 'relationship' with God before GM and always felt that GM was not very God-centered. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 07:30:49 (EST)
From: ex-mug Email: None To: Bobby Subject: acid survey -- Why? Message: I had a life-changing acid trip (Cal.Sunshine)in 1972. A scientist friend of mine lent me the Timothy Leary book 'Transcription of The Tibetan Book of The Dead for Acid Trippers' (or similar title). The essence of the message was, 'Oh noble soul,surrender to the flow of energy etc...' At a friend's pad the next evening, I was handed half a tab of 'Californian Sunshine'which was particularly potent. With other acid the experience usually started after about 20 minutes, with this it started after 2 minutes - oooh! Anyhow, to cut a long story short, I followed the advice of the Tibetan book, and surrendered all the way to 'Oneness', and certain words came to mind after the experience - 'Knowing' 'Energy' 'Light' and a few more - cruel fate that I met so many Premies in the next few days, who talked about 'Knowledge' 'Energy' 'Light' - you get the picture.... So, that's how I became involved in a nut shell - wanting to revisit my acid experience, and thinking foolishly that Guru Maharaj ji could help me there without the acid. My BIG mistake. On reflection, I am glad that I had that acid experience (always remember listening to 'Inner Mounting Flame' by Mahavishnu Orchestra the morning after the trip, and it amazed me - I was and am a professional musician, and the power of that music totally 'blew my mind' away. Anyhow, I found out that the leader of that band, John Machlaughlin, was a follower of Shri Chinmoy, and bought his other album,can't remember the name, but it had a picture of his guru on it. So, I decided that I wanted a guru too - the dumbness of youth - then GM turned up etc...... ex-mug Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 15:03:12 (EST)
From: op Email: None To: bobby Subject: acid survey -- Why? Message: Just for the record, since no one else on the 'pro-M' side took up the challenge: during the 60s I did every drug I could find, including opiates, dmt, and a lot of LSD. During my time living on the Lower East, I sometimes took acid every day (we were selling it, and it became a way of life). We really believed, at one point, that it would solve all the world's problems. At some point, the paranoia set in. It may have been the person I was tripping with, or it may have been acid that was laced with a lot of amphetamine, or it may have just been the time for my mind to start snapping. I hadn't tripped in a few months, and suddenly all the problems, suffering, famines, earthquakes - EVERYTHING was my fault. I was the center of all Maya, I was Kali - everything I touched turned to pain. The paranoia didn't just dissolve after that one acid trip. It stayed around for a few years. I took acid a few more times after it, and every time, that world-view came roaring back. Sometimes it would emerge when I smoked pot, and often I would get flashbacks during my daily life. It never occurred to me that this was a very self-centered way of viewing the world. I 'knew' that the only way out of the maya was for me to become enlightened, for me to have an ego death - but that didn't mean a physical death. If I had thought that the problems would be resolved by my dying, I would gladly have committed suicide at that point. But fortunately - for me, at least - there was something in me that said I had to find my way OUT of this cycle, and that a physical death would only perpetuate it. And, to top things off, if I died, I'd have no idea of how to take the next step. So I didn't kill myself. I spent a lot of time trying to meditate. That's when I discovered the techniques that I would later receive as part of a Knowledge session. They worked, but only up to a point. I always came up to a place where 'I' couldn't get past myself. 'I' wanted to be rid of that 'I-ness' - and it just wouldn't go away. I don't regret taking acid. It opened up an inner world that was very frightening, but it was definitely a stepping-stone to where I am now. I do have other regrets in my life - that I wasn't with my mother when she died, for one. So it's not that I'm just a fatalist. How acid ties in to Knowledge? Not terribly much, except that 1)after Knowledge I was able to overcome any tendencies to flashbacks. For the first few years, I never had them at all (of course, I didn't do any drugs, either). And 2) while in India in 71, I had the first real experience of going beyond 'myself', of feeling merged with the power of the universe. I'm a very cerebral person, it's not that I can call up 'nirvana' at will and go to 'that place' (sorry for the 'that' - but I can't say this without it) any time I feel like it. But by some miracle, and it really is miraculous to me, it has happened and does happen that I can experience a place completely beyond space and time. Those acid days were something very special - there were sometimes lessons that felt like they were being pulled right out of some eternal cosmic textbook. But I don't think I would ever take it again (my last trip was about two years before I received K). Actually, there was a third situation that has to do with psychedelics and K, but slightly different. When taking mescaline, I experienced that life on earth was based on total duality. It felt like a living, breathing version of the I Ching - yin and yang in everything. And after I received Knowledge, the duality was gone. A lot of the games I'd always played simply disappeared. Among other things, I felt like I was no longer living in a place where I had to compete for top place or sink to the bottom - I could just live, be myself. There were also some cosmic implications to this vision, but I won't go into them. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 21:25:37 (EST)
From: Zac Email: None To: Barney Subject: Barney - Easy Poll Message: Barney- When I suggested a new poll a while ago I didn't mean for it to involve learning cgi programming. I was thinking of something simple like the last one. A question with 5 choices using the program you downloaded. Thought of a poll that interests me. Question: Since reading the ex-premie forum have you 1. Increased the number of pictures of Maharji in your home 2. Decreased the number of pictures of maharji in your home 3. Has the number of pictures of maharji remained the same 4. Entirely eliminated Maharji pictures in your home 5. Never displayed pictures in my home This is obviously a poll for premie lurkers though a dart board picture would be nice. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 21:35:08 (EST)
From: Denise Email: None To: Zac Subject: Barney - Easy Poll Message: I bet y'all think it's funny I took the Maharaji photos down in my house since I began reading this site. Actually, out of the five that were displayed, there's still one out. Does that tell you anything about me? Will I have graduated to ex-premie when I take that last one down? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 21:43:18 (EST)
From: Selene Email: None To: Denise Subject: Barney - Easy Poll Message: Dear Denise Keep whatever you want or need from the past or present. I am surprised premies keep photos exhibited, I was told not to. And was happy to oblige since it was embarrassing to me when non premies came around and asked about them. One time, I visited a house - a couple my ex husband and I had just met through work. We were premies (the ex and I) Upon using their bathroom, my ex came out with a funny look on his face. He told me to check out the bathroom. The couple had the Lord of the Universe poster plastered to the back of their bathroom door. As a joke!!! We came clean and laughed, I did anyway, until my ex got into his evangelical routine at which time I got embarrassed. Anyway, just a photo story. I hope you have seen the new Chronicles of the Red Nighty. you were my muse, partly, you know!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 21:46:52 (EST)
From: Zac Email: None To: Denise Subject: Trouble Message: Denise you got me in trouble girl. My live-in girlfriend came into the computer room when I was posting to you when you first came on line. All she saw was from Zac to Denise and walked of the room. When I caught up with her she started asking me about all the time I've been spending on line and said she'd heard of long distance romances on the web. I, of course said don't worry honey that's not what's going on. A day or so later I fire up the computer and click on this page while she's standing next to me. You know what we both read. A post from Denise, 'Does meditation make you horny?' Had to stay off the computer for a week. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 21:59:21 (EST)
From: Denise Email: None To: Zac's Girlfriend Subject: To Zac's Girlfriend - Romance Message: Don't worry, the only love that's going on is the LOVE INSIDE ALL OF US. I've learned that Zac is a lost soul since he's left Maharaji's loving lifestyle and have tried in every way to convince him about THIS LIFE and THIS LOVE, but to no avail. Hey, if you ever want some and he doesn't, tell him to practice the third or breath technique! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 22:09:39 (EST)
From: Zac Email: None To: Denise Subject: It did spark her interest Message: in meditation for the first time. Of course if I showed her the techniques she might think I'm her guru and we know the problems that can cause. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 21:52:38 (EST)
From: Gail Email: None To: Denise Subject: Barney - Easy Poll Message: The fact is, Denise, whether you see it or not, you have been damaged by this belief system. I took my pictures down and gave them to people who were staying in the cult because of the effect the mug shots had on me. I couldn't bear to destroy them (I could now). I could rush at will from gawking at them. This is a sick response I taught myself (with MJ's encouragement). I would rather get a real man to salivate over in the future--a real, flesh-and-bones man with a few imperfections. MJ in the picture represented the perfect human being to me. God knows, he didn't argue. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 09:26:29 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Denise Subject: Why just one? Message: Denise, Before you found this site, you had no intention of taking down any of the pictures. Now you've taken down all but one. I'd say that's the thread you're hanging on by. A premie, Robert, recently observed how easily swayed you are. I agree. If you really had a deep and rewarding relationship with the master, I think ALL of the pictures would still be hanging, not just one. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 20:10:46 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: My challenge to all premies Message: Arguing with you guys is draining because we ex's keep trying to appeal to your common sense but you keep hiding it. I mean, when you argue with someone without a referee -- and you're right -- you can only prevail if the other person's rational and honest. Otherwise, how can you get anywhere? We have truly seen you premies go to unimaginably shameless and cowardly lengths to deny the obvious. I mean, that's obvious, isn't it? So here's my challenge: try to find one person, one single person, who is not in the cult who'll support your bizarre positions. For example, commenting on the meaning of Maharaji's former commandment, 'Never leave room for doubt in your mind', and how it affected my friend Dave Weiner, Nil said this: 'Ah, put it away asshole. Your friend took his life... that's sad. But you're playing on my heart-strings so loud you're drowning out the truth. The commandment to me was very clear: KNOW so you don't have to be in doubt. In my opinion you, your friend, and JW TOTALLY misunderstood its meaning. So why the fuck don't you start acting like functioning adults, and take the responsibility on your own shoulders... where it belongs. It won't hurt, believe me.' Now I believe any sane, honest person even slightly familiar with the facts would lagh this off as nonsense but, well, we already know what I think. AND we already know what you premies claim to think. So, I say put your money where your mouth is. Many times I've challenged premies to get their kids online so they could see what their parents have to say. Of course no one's done this. But maybe that's just because teenagers' time is so precious. Now I'm challenging you guys on a broader basis. Find me one person who'll support your interpretation of words here. I dare you. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 21:09:19 (EST)
From: Zac Email: None To: Jim Subject: You got em' there Jim Message: Because this whole thing is about nothing. And you can't defend or argue about nothing. So they have to make there choice and shut up or continue to look like fools at the emperor's parade. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 07:27:16 (EST)
From: Mel Bourne Email: mbvictoria@hotmail.com To: Jim Subject: My challenge to all premies Message: Jim The major problem with your challenge is that I doubt whether anyone (other than premies or ex-premies) would be at all interested in trying to assess the merits of the conflicting view points expressed on this site. Mel Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 10:00:53 (EST)
From: Happy Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: The challenge to all premies Message: I see what you mean, Mel Bourne, still I think most non-premies would think M is a fraud, if you address them with a direct yes-or-no question. It appears more likely than the other way around. As they would assess Reverend Moon, L. Ron Hubbard, and so on. But certainly, the whole question would hardly be meaningful. Most people think cults are nuts, period, so why bother to discuss the issue. There were times when all of us liked or even loved M. I was very serious, I personally worked very hard for him, I helped establish his mission and ashrams in several nations. But even his followers nowadays tend to have a reluctant way to relate to him, they don't really know what to think. There have been too many scandals, 180 degrees' changes, and people get older and wiser. The story is over for M. He's now desparately trying to save what's there to save. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 10:07:30 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Bullshit excuse, Mel Message: The major problem with your challenge is that I doubt whether anyone (other than premies or ex-premies) would be at all interested in trying to assess the merits of the conflicting view points expressed on this site. Mel, That's pretty thin. I've got lots of friends who are barely interested in my 'guru thing' and probably humour me a bit when I tell them the occasional story. Hey, if they're my friends, they usually care about me a bit and are usually game for a quick sketch from the past or some thumbnail analysis. They're friends, right? But I know I could get drag at least twenty people into this and squeeze an opinion out of them. In fact, some of the them, might actually enjoy being asked. The fact is, I do recruit their opinions on the 'conflicting viewpoints expressed on this site'. I do it all the time. And as you must know, they all think you premies are typical cult members and impervious to reason. But then again, those are just my friends. Where are yours, Mel? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 06:13:42 (EST)
From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: Jim Subject: more excuses Message: Jim Believe it or not I have lots of friends too, premies and, because of where I live, lots of non premies. Indeed, most of my friends would probably fall into the latter category.They know of my involvement with M, and, I believe, respect that. My wife and son are not premies either, but they have seen videos of Maharaji and while not really interested in receiving Knowledge, respect my involvement, such as it is. (Maybe they are just humouring me though!) They are aware of this site and having read some of the ex-premie postings have quite frankly told me that arguing here is a waste of time. They are certainly not interested in adjudicating in some contest as to who is right and who is wrong on what they consider to be an irrelevant matter, they've got better things to do with their time. I don't for one minute doubt that you have impartial friends who, on the basis of your perception of Maharaji would agree with your view point. It's very easy to dismiss Maharaji and Knowledge a just another cult, people (especially 'Westerners') seem to have a predisposition to beware of what appears to be group or cult activities. My associates, however, while having this inherent disposition, are more probably a little more open minded than yours, because they know me personally and can judge for themselves whether I exhibit 'cult member' behaviour (which, they assure me, I don't). They see me in the full context of being a human being in many different aspects, and see my 'religious/spiritual' aspirations and practice as something personal, they certainly don't jump to preconceived conclusions about who or what I am based on a couple of postings to a internet website. Jim, if you and I were to meet on the street somewhere or get introduced in a work or social context, we would probably get on quite well. Personal contact dispels lots of impressions that people can have about each other. That's why I tend towards a philosophy of mutual respect. Our communication here is based around something that we totally disagree about, and can probably never agree about, but I don't see your view point as detracting from your merit as a decent human being, why can't you afford me and other premies the same respect? I'm 50 years old, I've been around and, like most people here, seen it all. I have a wide experience of life and people and make meaningful contribution to the community around me, so I am not the 19 year old deluded 'cult member' that you and you colleagues would like to portray based on your teen/twenties ashram images. I'm a middle aged man facing my death a few years up the line and frankly I am quite content with what Maharaji has helped me with in my life, it hasn't warped and hindered me in any way. Jim, when are you going to see people as human beings, and not as ex-premies (the good) or premies (the bad). Life is much too short to carry the grudges and burdens you seem to have Jim. You should loosen up a little and not see life as a huge battle or contest. Mel Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 19:27:19 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Mel (ot) Message: I think one time you were explaining the kind of work you do, and it sounded very interesting. Do you do social or legal work with native Australians or something like that? By the way, I think I might be coming to Australia for Mardi Gras, and the Olympics, next year. I'm really looking forward to it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 27, 1999 at 08:40:10 (EST)
From: Mel Bourne Email: mbvictoria@hotmail.com To: JW Subject: Mel (ot) Message: Yes, JW, I do work for various Aboriginal communities in Australia. Basically, I consult with communities in a development process to find out what they see their basic needs as being. This can be anything from requiring a bus to sent their kids to school, helping organise community breakfasts to help the kids get to school, developing an action plan to help overcome crime or domestic violence problems and umpteen other issues. They set the agenda for what they want, and I assist them with the planning, preparation of submissions and budgets, and also with direct advocacy in various Government and non-government forums. The work is extremely challenging and the outcomes are not always what could be hoped for. I think that the issues Indigenous Australians face will take a very long time to overcome ( generations, in fact!). However, persistance will eventually achieve positive results. So, yes, it is very interesting (and frustrating) work. I hope you enjoy your visit to Australia (Y2K bug permitting, of course) Mel Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 27, 1999 at 22:31:14 (EST)
From: KK Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Mel (ot) Message: Hi Mel Did you pick up from any of my posts that I work as a criminal lawyer defending Aboriginal people? As you have the benefit of reflecting on our past association, I thought you might find it of interest. Cheers. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 02:22:40 (EST)
From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: KK Subject: Mel (ot) Message: Hi KK Yes, I remember you did mention that a while ago, although this is obviously a relatively 'recent' development. When I knew you, you had just left school and was very enthusiastic in your dedication to M. You must have graduated in Law after you left M, I don't seem to remember you studying at that time. I always found you to be one of the more rational and reasonable minded sisters on the Melbourne scene and very pleasant to converse with. I'm glad things have worked out well for you. Mel Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 21:24:48 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Mel, you keep missing the pt Message: Mel, I don't disagree with much of what you've said. That is, I don't think we'd necessarily dislike each other or anything like that if we met. I agree that the net offers a narrow kind of contact and that if we were just hanging out we might not spark like this. But, you see, I really appreciate that narrow focus. It's a focus on ideas and communication. I'm not troubled at all by it. Anyway, it seems you've missed my point again. Many of you guys defy common sense with the way you try to avoid the fair meaning of many things m's said and done. My point was that it's not just ex-premies who see it that way. Anyone would. No, I'm not talking about whether or not your friends like and respect you. Nor am I talking about whether or not they think you talk and act like a cult member. I'm talking about whether they would ever support the way you apologists try to twist the english language. For example and like I was saying, I challenge Nil to find one person who isn't a premie who'll agree with the bizarre interpretation he's offering for m's commandment not to leave room for doubt in one's mind. This is an entirely diferent question than whether or not Nil's non-premie friends and family think he's in a cult. I say the only possible way someone would support Nil in this is that they're in the cult too. How about you? Do you agree with Nil? How do you interpret 'Never leave room for doubt in your mind'? Honestly, Mel. Honestly, please. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 27, 1999 at 08:03:11 (EST)
From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: Jim Subject: The point..... Message: Jim I'm sorry if I appear to have missed your point! I interpreted your 'challenge' to mean that premies find non-premies to support their 'bizarre positions' and then you went on to the specific example of 'never leave room for doubt in your mind'. I didn't think your specific example was the point, I thought your point was generalised.....Anyway, you ask, how do I interpret that particular 'commandment'. Hmmm.......when I came out of my Knowledge session I was quite freaked. I had come across the 'Light' technique in previous yoga reading and had practiced a version of the 'Holy Name' technique under the Kriya yoga banner from the Self Realisation Fellowship. So I thought that I had really been ripped off. When I first sat down to do my first formal meditation the next day, I was confronted with a decision. Would I consider this 'Knowledge' as a rip off and M as a fraud, or would I trust the process and despite my impressions, try the whole thing out and give it the benefit of the doubt. I can tell you I was extremely distressed as I had placed so much value on the potential of Knowledge. Anyway, I made the decision at that time that what M offered seemed to me to be, at the very least, practical and should be tryed with sincerity to see if it worked. So I made the decision to try. What I am saying is that at that time I was confronted with a huge doubt and that it would have been easy for me to succumb to it. To my good fortune, though, I didn't. Had I succumbed to this original doubt I have no idea where I would be now, may be happy, may be depressed, but I do value my experience of Knowledge as a warmth and a feeling of great well being and 'at homeness' that I may well not have otherwise experienced. Because of this I am thankful that I was able to give Maharaji the chance to show me that what he offered me in the techniques of Knowledge was a practical and a positive addition to my life. To me this last point is now beyond doubt, because it is part of a personal and self evident fact based on my own experience. It is not a belief or conviction I hold as such, but is so evident to me that it is impossible for me to deny even if I wanted to, much the same way as it is impossible for me to deny the colour of the sky or the taste of oranges. ...and, I guess, this is also the basis of my defense of Maharaji, irrespective of his behaviour or his personality, I have found that the 'Knowledge' that he offers has undeniably worked for me. Granted, it may not have worked for you and others, but for me it has. So I suppose my interpretation is ...'never leave room for doubt in your mind that Knowledge won't work for you'. I have never interpreted the commandment to include doubts concerning Maharaji's divinity. To me, as you know, that has always been a non-issue. I hope you consider this an honest response, Jim, I don't think that I could be more honest with you. Mel Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 27, 1999 at 10:07:11 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: The point................ Message: So I suppose my interpretation is ...'never leave room for doubt in your mind that Knowledge won't work for you'. Well, Mel, the problem with your interpretation is that m often talked about what it was we shouldn't doubt. I agree, some of that was our 'experience' (although he even warned us about trusting that too much. Remember his satsangs about the mind's ability to 'fake' knowledge?). But he also said stuff like: 'And as that battle begins, the things get even more intense. And if that faith is not there, if that faith is not completely in Guru Maharaj Ji, you're going to fall in so many fragments that you wouldn't be able to count them yourself. You will run right out of count. Right out of it. You will go beyond zillions, billions, everything.' (emphasis added). Now, again, Mel we have our little problem. I say there's only one way to interpret this: M's warning premies they'll fall to ruin if they doubt him. Any reasonable person, premie or not would agree. Yet I know you won't. You'll find some way to try to avoid admitting the obvious. So, again, my challenge: can you find one, single person who's not a premie to agree with you? In this case one person who'll say that m's not warning premies to avoid doubting him at all costs? Okay, that's one thing. But there's another. You say: To me this last point is now beyond doubt, because it is part of a personal and self evident fact based on my own experience. It is not a belief or conviction I hold as such, but is so evident to me that it is impossible for me to deny even if I wanted to, much the same way as it is impossible for me to deny the colour of the sky or the taste of oranges. Scientists can and do study both the colour of the sky and the taste of oranges. Hell, they study pretty well everything. Is there some reaon you can think of that knowledge should be any exception? Why shouldn't m offer a 'history lesson' on his site? He does a cursory job of showing something of what he claims is his lineage. Why not really get into it? Study the various possible explanations for the so-called 'knowledge experience'. Study its history. Explore all possible explanations. What is that 'nectar' stuff? How does 'light' work? Music? I mean, much as you like it and all that, you have to admit knowledge is, at best, something of a mystery. Now, again, I know that you've got some reason to say no. My question to you then is can you think of a single other mystery that shouldn't be studied? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |