Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 40

From: Feb 26, 1999

To: Mar 8, 1999

Page: 2 Of: 5



Jim -:- This word 'experience'..... -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 22:04:41 (EST)

Popeye -:- To Reason with a friend who.. -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 20:03:23 (EST)
__Katie -:- To Reason with a friend who.. -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 21:34:24 (EST)
__bill -:- To Reason with a friend who.. -:- Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 00:57:30 (EST)

Joanna -:- HELP -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 15:43:30 (EST)
__selene -:- HELP -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 17:53:10 (EST)
__Mike -:- My opinion, only... -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 18:17:18 (EST)
__gerry -:- HELP -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 20:25:07 (EST)
____Miloochie -:- HELP -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 22:39:01 (EST)
__Katie -:- HELP -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 21:55:06 (EST)
__Miloochie -:- HELP -:- Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 00:16:18 (EST)
____barney -:- HELP -:- Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 02:08:48 (EST)
__NP -:- HELP -:- Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 01:51:56 (EST)
____Helen -:- HELP -:- Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 09:52:33 (EST)
______cp -:- run if he... -:- Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 15:31:29 (EST)
________Helen -:- run if he... -:- Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 17:03:15 (EST)
__AJW -:- HELP -:- Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 04:46:41 (EST)
____cp -:- sounds like -:- Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 19:13:19 (EST)
__Cult Member -:- HELP -:- Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 10:23:27 (EST)
____Happy -:- HELP -:- Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 13:05:13 (EST)
____Mike -:- Funny.... -:- Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 16:02:43 (EST)
__CD -:- HELP -:- Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 19:11:40 (EST)

Jean-Michel -:- SEE m's inventions online -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 10:02:11 (EST)
__Sir Dave -:- SEE m's inventions online -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 19:48:45 (EST)

Jim -:- Will Denise be another SHP? -:- Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 22:17:42 (EST)
__Helen -:- 'can't cope, my last hope' -:- Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 23:27:08 (EST)
____Sir David -:- I disagree with all this -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 01:22:41 (EST)
______Jethro -:- I disagree with you SIr David -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 02:46:08 (EST)
________Sir David -:- It's one of my principles! -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 07:39:16 (EST)
__________Brian -:- Project premies -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 10:22:55 (EST)
____________Jim -:- Reality strikes -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 10:57:44 (EST)
______________Brian -:- Reality strikes BACK -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 11:41:44 (EST)
________________Gerry -:- A good Balance -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 11:58:09 (EST)
________________Katie -:- Reality strikes BACK (long) -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 15:32:36 (EST)
__________________Jim -:- Thanks Katie -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 20:46:54 (EST)
________________Bobby -:- Thank you Brian and Katie -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 15:59:01 (EST)
________________Jim -:- Thanks Brian -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 20:10:01 (EST)
__________________Selene -:- Thanks Brian -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 23:31:54 (EST)
__________________Brian -:- You're welcome -:- Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 10:32:58 (EST)
____________________Jim -:- Ex Sensitivity Training? -:- Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 11:16:24 (EST)
______________________Katie -:- a clarification -:- Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 14:38:21 (EST)
________________________Helen -:- a clarification -:- Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 17:16:08 (EST)
__________________________Helen -:- and furthermore... -:- Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 17:25:16 (EST)
________________________Jim -:- Mommy! Mommy! -:- Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 20:38:24 (EST)
__________________________Katie -:- I ain't your mama -:- Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 21:53:53 (EST)
____________________________Jim -:- How do you think I feel? -:- Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 22:03:47 (EST)
______________________________Katie -:- more clarification -:- Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 23:07:11 (EST)
________________________________Katie -:- and I should add... -:- Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 23:15:29 (EST)
________________________________Jim -:- Oh, see ..(?) -:- Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 23:23:21 (EST)
______________________Brian -:- [Shrug] -:- Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 16:29:27 (EST)
________________________Jim -:- I don't believe you, Brian -:- Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 22:21:06 (EST)
______________________SHP -:- Jim, you are living proof -:- Sat, Mar 06, 1999 at 13:16:21 (EST)
________________SHP -:- Reality strikes BACK -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 21:02:57 (EST)
__________Helen -:- It's one of my principles! -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 10:34:37 (EST)
____________Jim -:- Where's the big principle? -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 11:10:22 (EST)
______________Helen -:- Where's the big principle? -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 12:52:58 (EST)
________________Helen -:- Where's the big principle? -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 13:02:13 (EST)
________________Jim -:- Thanks Helen -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 20:49:08 (EST)
__________________Helen -:- Thanks Helen -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 23:55:57 (EST)
______________Helen -:- Virtues -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 23:43:05 (EST)
________________Selene -:- Virtues -:- Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 00:26:18 (EST)
__________________barney -:- Thanks Maharaji -:- Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 02:54:02 (EST)
____________________Helen -:- Thanks Maharaji -:- Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 09:13:42 (EST)
__________________Helen -:- Talk to me baby (ot) -:- Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 09:23:17 (EST)
__________Jim -:- You should be grateful, David -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 10:37:44 (EST)
____________Sir Dave -:- It's simple -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 14:36:05 (EST)
______________Helen -:- This discussion -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 16:45:36 (EST)
______________Jim -:- Could'a fooled me -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 20:14:52 (EST)
__________Jethro -:- It's one of my principles! -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 12:01:42 (EST)
______Selene -:- I disagree with all this -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 11:10:41 (EST)
________Jim -:- That's pretty patronizing -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 11:12:48 (EST)
__________Selene -:- That's pretty patronizing -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 11:14:46 (EST)
____________Selene -:- and furthermore -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 11:24:40 (EST)
______________SHP -:- Yeah, Selene! -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 21:16:06 (EST)
______________Jim -:- Yes, Selene, and so are you -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 21:18:47 (EST)
____________Jim -:- It's patronizing because.. -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 11:27:18 (EST)
__________Gerry -:- That's pretty patronizing -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 11:26:16 (EST)
____________Selene -:- That's pretty patronizing -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 11:31:32 (EST)
______________SHP -:- The truth you feel inside... -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 21:20:23 (EST)
________________Jim -:- isn't 'truth' -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 21:25:25 (EST)
__________________SHP -:- Jim's method of branding... -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 21:38:49 (EST)
____________________Gerry -:- 15 yards for piling on, sheep. -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 22:24:40 (EST)
______________________SHP -:- let's go to the videotape -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 22:45:26 (EST)
________________________Gerry -:- I'm on my knees, -:- Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 12:20:40 (EST)
__________________________SHP -:- what it means -:- Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 18:40:51 (EST)
____________________________Jim -:- Summary judgement? -:- Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 18:55:48 (EST)
______________________________SHP -:- reply to Jim -:- Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 19:33:50 (EST)
____________________________gerry -:- good grief, man -:- Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 19:04:22 (EST)
______________________________SHP -:- In the words of Carly -:- Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 19:35:55 (EST)
________________________________gerry -:- You're a tricky guy. -:- Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 20:24:36 (EST)
__________________________________SHP -:- tricks are for kids, ger -:- Fri, Mar 05, 1999 at 08:07:14 (EST)
____________________________________Gerry -:- tricks are for kids, ger -:- Fri, Mar 05, 1999 at 12:40:17 (EST)
______________________________________SHP -:- Ger, you fearful predator you -:- Fri, Mar 05, 1999 at 18:41:17 (EST)
____________________________________Mike -:- Wrong shp... definitely wrong -:- Fri, Mar 05, 1999 at 12:48:27 (EST)
______________________________________SHP -:- strong mike..definitely strong -:- Fri, Mar 05, 1999 at 20:57:46 (EST)
______________________________SHP -:- second reading feedback -:- Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 20:15:51 (EST)
________________________________gerry -:- shp's passing in the night -:- Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 20:42:22 (EST)
__________________________________SHP -:- unlock yer horns -:- Fri, Mar 05, 1999 at 08:14:00 (EST)
________________________________Mike -:- shp, what happened to you? -:- Fri, Mar 05, 1999 at 13:00:24 (EST)
__________________________________SHP -:- Mike, life happened to me. -:- Fri, Mar 05, 1999 at 21:01:46 (EST)
____________________Jim -:- Subliminal poo poo -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 22:47:04 (EST)
______________________SHP -:- poo poo patter -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 23:05:00 (EST)
________________Selene -:- The truth you feel inside... -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 23:46:23 (EST)
__________________Selene -:- my last msg. -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 23:53:48 (EST)
__________________SHP -:- The truth you feel inside... -:- Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 00:52:17 (EST)
____________________Selene -:- The truth you feel inside... -:- Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 01:00:06 (EST)
______________________SHP -:- The truth you feel inside... -:- Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 01:06:47 (EST)
________________________Selene -:- The truth you feel inside... -:- Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 15:00:46 (EST)
__________________Roger Drek -:- Selene, you're the best! -:- Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 03:31:34 (EST)
____________________selene -:- Selene, you're the best! -:- Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 12:56:33 (EST)
____________Sir David -:- I refer the honourable member -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 19:25:26 (EST)
______________Gerry -:- I refer the honourable member -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 19:42:13 (EST)
________________Sir Dave -:- I refer the honourable member -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 20:06:03 (EST)
__________________Gerry -:- I refer the honourable member -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 20:36:38 (EST)
____________________Helen -:- communcashun -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 23:25:35 (EST)
______________________Selene -:- communcashun -:- Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 00:00:35 (EST)
________________________Helen -:- communcashun -:- Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 00:17:50 (EST)
____________________Sir Dave -:- House of cards -:- Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 06:50:57 (EST)
______Cult Member -:- I disagree with all this -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 12:00:27 (EST)
____Jethro -:- 'can't cope, my last hope' -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 02:35:05 (EST)
______ex-mug -:- 'can't cope, my last hope' -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 04:31:39 (EST)
________Jethro -:- 'can't cope, my last hope' -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 07:21:36 (EST)
__Cult Member -:- Will Denise be another SHP? -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 11:58:36 (EST)
____Selene -:- Will Denise be another SHP? -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 12:13:12 (EST)
______Gerry -:- Will Denise be another SHP? -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 12:23:50 (EST)
________Selene -:- Will Denise be another SHP? -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 13:00:26 (EST)
__________Ophelia -:- Simmering Hormones -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 13:09:18 (EST)
____________seleeeeeeeeeeen!!!! -:- Simmering Hormones -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 17:33:43 (EST)
______________Ophelia -:- Gerry -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 17:43:53 (EST)
__________Gerry -:- Will Denise be another SHP? -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 13:27:14 (EST)
________Garth -:- Will Denise be another SHP? -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 13:01:24 (EST)
__g's mom -:- Jim and the debate about his -:- Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 15:41:44 (EST)
____Selene -:- Jim and the debate about his -:- Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 15:46:09 (EST)
____g's mom -:- more for Jim -:- Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 15:51:25 (EST)
______Mike -:- Pretty good.... -:- Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 16:13:35 (EST)
________Helen -:- Pretty good.... -:- Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 17:22:29 (EST)
________Jim -:- Yeah, I agree -:- Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 17:22:51 (EST)

ex-mug -:- Rat Holes -:- Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 12:06:31 (EST)
__ex-mug -:- ps -:- Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 12:14:47 (EST)
____barney -:- I remember my rat hole -:- Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 13:04:45 (EST)
______John -:- I remember my rat hole -:- Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 13:29:06 (EST)
________Helen -:- Healing your inner rat -:- Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 15:04:32 (EST)
______Crazed Moon Goddess -:- I remember my rat hole -:- Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 22:54:31 (EST)
________Wolf Woman -:- I remember my rat hole -:- Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 23:05:04 (EST)
__________Garth -:- I remember my rat hole -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 10:21:44 (EST)
____________Selene -:- I remember my rat hole -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 10:44:53 (EST)
____________Helen -:- Goddesses -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 17:34:25 (EST)
______________Jerry Springer -:- Helen and Lassie an item? -:- Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 13:03:41 (EST)
________________Helen -:- Helen and Lassie an item? -:- Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 17:33:24 (EST)
__________Selene -:- I remember my rat hole -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 10:58:11 (EST)
________barney -:- the dark side of the moon -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 00:04:17 (EST)
__________Selene -:- the dark side of the moon -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 10:40:13 (EST)
____John -:- The evolution of devotion -:- Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 13:12:02 (EST)
______bill -:- good one John -:- Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 18:56:50 (EST)
________ex-mug -:- Talents -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 04:19:37 (EST)
__________Jethro -:- Talents and barfing -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 10:50:53 (EST)
____________ex-mug -:- Talents and barfing -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 15:05:51 (EST)
______________Jethro -:- Talents and barfing -:- Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 06:18:55 (EST)
________________ex-mug -:- Talents and barfing -:- Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 10:20:49 (EST)
__________________Jethro -:- to ex-mug -:- Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 12:03:57 (EST)
____________________ex-mug -:- to ex-mug -:- Fri, Mar 05, 1999 at 06:00:12 (EST)
______________________Jethro -:- to ex-mug -:- Fri, Mar 05, 1999 at 06:42:02 (EST)
______Cult Member -:- Evolved -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 12:03:51 (EST)
________John -:- You're very deep, but... -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 14:32:06 (EST)
__________Mike -:- John, I think he's playing -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 18:59:14 (EST)
__________Cult Member -:- You're very deep, but... -:- Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 10:27:39 (EST)
____________John -:- More deep thoughts -:- Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 12:39:34 (EST)
______________Mike -:- More deep thoughts -:- Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 13:21:24 (EST)
________________John -:- More deep thoughts -:- Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 14:15:18 (EST)
__________________Diz -:- some more thoughts - ?deep -:- Fri, Mar 05, 1999 at 07:03:11 (EST)
____________________gerry -:- beautiful, Diz-(nt) -:- Fri, Mar 05, 1999 at 12:28:58 (EST)
__Ophelia -:- I Remember My Rathole... -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 11:27:13 (EST)
____Selene -:- I Remember My Rathole... -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 11:34:37 (EST)
______Ophelia -:- I Remember My Rat hole... -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 13:00:03 (EST)
________Helen -:- I Remember My Rat hole... -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 23:53:51 (EST)
____ex-mug -:- I Remember My Rathole... -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 15:10:01 (EST)
______Selene -:- I Remember My Rathole... -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 16:31:39 (EST)
________Ophelia -:- Ending Abuse Cycles -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 17:37:12 (EST)
__________barney -:- stating the obvious -:- Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 01:44:06 (EST)


Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 22:04:41 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: This word 'experience'.....
Message:
You can study the biochemistry of it and do brain scans and talk about producing alpha waves, but you still can't study the experience itself. Just like you can study the physiological changes of death but not the experience itself, other than describing it.

First, Denise, if you do all the stuff you mention in your first sentence, you are studying the 'experience itself'. What do you think an 'experience' is anyway? I mean besides a flashing code word signalling that one is entering a 'no mind' zone?

Look at it this way. There are lots and lots of approaches one can make to the subject matter of a subjective experience. One can study the derivation of the practice. It didn't spring out of thin air, did it? Where'd it come from? How? Has it changed over time? Are there any variations taught or practiced? What's with all that?

Interested people can and, IMESHO, should ask these questions. But Maharaji, supposedly the 'master' of all this nonsense and the first person one should ask, only ridicules the suggestion. How many times I gotta tell ya'? This ain't no history lesson!

One could study the psychological effects of the meditation by running all sorts of tests a la TM (only honestly). I'm not saying these assessments will necessarily yield anything particularly interesting. But it's possible, isn't it? Maharaji sure won't endorse any such thing.

Here's an obvious but never-tried experiment: how about giving the techniques to different groups of people, some of whom have been properly 'prepared' and some who haven't? Or, better still, how about having two groups of people get knowledge but only let one group receive it from Maharaji (how ever he thinks he gives it these days. It used to require physical contact). Try to devise a double-blind study so some get it from Maharaji and some from Satpal. Is there a difference? Do they even reprot a difference?

Maybe these experiments seem tricky to create. Well, that's what we're paying you the big bucks for, right Ms. Psychologist?

And how about all those studies that explore various means of brain stimulation? Any overlapping observations of any significance with the reported k experience?

How about just one good, long interview with Maharaji? He is the master, isn't he? Why not really pick the guy's brains? What, if anything, does he think distinguishes him from the average guy? How about from his brother? Follow through, follow through. Really ask the guy what's what. Try to get the bottom of his belief system.

Oh, he doesn't have one? Fine get to the bottom of the one that tells him that!

Must I go on? You're a psychologist. You know that there are all sorts of ingenious ways to test claims and beliefs. What? You just can't think of any here?

Anyway, the point is that it's possible tostudy knowleddge from all kinds of angles but Maharaji is and always has been strictly against it.

Why?
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 20:03:23 (EST)
From: Popeye
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: To Reason with a friend who..
Message:
I'm not a follower of M but I have a close friend who is and has been for over 20 years.
Can I have your opinions on whether to talk to him about this site?
And could you tell me what may be some of his responses to me if you folks think it would be appropriate for me to talk to him about this website?
Thanks,Popeye
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 21:34:24 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Popeye
Subject: To Reason with a friend who..
Message:
Hi Popeye -
This is a serious answer to your question. You wrote:

I'm not a follower of M but I have a close friend who is and has been for over 20 years. Can I have your opinions on whether to talk to him about this site?

In my opinion, if this guy is your close friend, it's entirely appropriate to tell him that you've been reading the site and participating in the forum.

And could you tell me what may be some of his responses to me if you folks think it would be appropriate for me to talk to him about this website?

I don't know this person (obviously), so your prediction of his responses would probably be more accurate than mine. Also, I'm not in the same situation that you are, but I know that some other people who post on here are, so they may be able to give you a better answer than I can, based on their own experience.

However, here's my opinion again: I doubt if he would get upset or angry with YOU, but he may get angry about some of the material that's on the site, and much of what is said here in the forum. Also, he may already know this site exists, and may have chosen not to read it, or read very much of it - you should be prepared for that. There's information on this site that's not common knowledge among premies (or among ex-premies) for that matter, and it's offensive to many premies when they read it. I do know of several premies who have read the entire site and dismiss it as hearsay and 'sour grapes' - be prepared for that reaction. But I have met and gotten to know some premies (via e-mail) from this site who are open-minded and can accept that this site is here even if they don't agree with it.

Anyway, your friend is welcome to discuss anything he reads either on the site or forum on the forum, or with various posters by e-mail (you are, too.) Also, I should add that, although I haven't had time to respond to your past posts, I think you're raising some good questions AND getting some good answers, and I hope you'll keep posting here.

Take care,
Katie
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Date: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 00:57:30 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Popeye
Subject: To Reason with a friend who..
Message:
You could print up some pages from this site and send them
without telling him it is you.
He might be the type that cant let down his beliefs in front
of someone that has known him as a guru follower for 20 years.

He has his long term excuses and he would be unusual if he
spun around on a dime.

Actually, printing up some of the stuff on maharaji's(prem rawat)
website is pretty damning to a long time cult member.
Some of his so called -poetry- really undermines the image
and programming your friend got.

Your friend will be helped by this forum when and if he starts
to wake up.

It is a favor you are doing him. A big favor.
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 15:43:30 (EST)
From: Joanna
Email: jjohnson@rof.net
To: Everyone
Subject: HELP
Message:
I have fallen in love with M devotee. He has been bringing me to video events. My life is working fine. I am deeply spiritual and have some doubts about M. After 6 months with this guy, I feel there is something unhinged in his logic. I am now considered an aspirant and will probably go through with recieving K because I am curious what will happen to our relationship when I do. This guy really thinks M is a deity. I don't want to be contentious about it but I do not worship mortals. I love this guy but K seems to detach him from everything else, especially the love that I pour out to him. Should I just dump him, try to help him or let him be?
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 17:53:10 (EST)
From: selene
Email: None
To: Joanna
Subject: HELP
Message:
Hi Joanna
You could show him some of the info on this site (maybe not forum right now or maybe, not sure)
There are pages about the history of M, his family, how it all came to be.
Testimonies from people who were very devoted and got out.Lots of stuff.

Once you see how he reacts to all that you have a lot more insight into him.

Also, you need to first and foremost be true to yourself. Either you like the videos,e tc. or you don't. Try to find that answer. I know you said you love him but you have to love yourself too.
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 18:17:18 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Joanna
Subject: My opinion, only...
Message:
Joanna: This is a rough one, but I think you should consider 'yourself' in this. You say that you pour out your love to him and he 'seems detached' from it all. That doesn't sound like a 50/50 deal to me and it doesn't sound like a healthy relationship is building between you two (at least, not his half), either. In other words, it sounds like you are doing all of the work in this relationship and, as they say, that ain't too good.

Joanna, you can't 'fix' him if he doesn't want to be fixed. But, I agree with Selene, you should expose him to 'your' doubts and expose him to the info that is available on this forum. If he begins to use the standard, 'you are in your mind' type satsang, then you know where you stand and you know where he's at, too.

I'm no psychologist, but that's my humble opinion with regards to your question (to this point, anyway). Good luck!
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 20:25:07 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Joanna
Subject: HELP
Message:
Here's a description of the Aspirant Process.

If you would like to experience Knowledge without all the cult baggage, click here

You gotta remember, this whole aspirant thing is a subtle form of cult indoctrination and once they got ya, it's tough to get out. It's even tougher to live up to cult expectations and you'll go nutso trying. I think you can see examples of that for yourself.

Like the others said, take the time to read this whole website and come back and talk some more.
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 22:39:01 (EST)
From: Miloochie
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: HELP
Message:
I just went to the Aspirant Process pages here from gerry's link and read the whole thing.

Highly recommended reading if you've never seen it. I think it's the many links and pages here of testimony (for instance all the Journeys) that carry the most weight for me.
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 21:55:06 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Joanna
Subject: HELP
Message:
Hi Joanna,
As Mike said, this is my opinion only (both as an ex-premie and as a person who has been in relationships).

You wrote:
I am deeply spiritual and have some doubts about M. After 6 months with this guy, I feel there is something unhinged in his logic. I am now considered an aspirant and will probably go through with recieving K because I am curious what will happen to
our relationship when I do. This guy really thinks M is a deity. I don't want to be contentious about it but I do not worship mortals. I love this guy but K seems to detach him from everything else, especially the love that I pour out to him. Should I just dump him, try to help him or let him be?


I would say that a lot depends on how devoted this man is to M. I have been in a couple of relationships with premies when I was a premie, and in both cases, I had to accept the fact that Maharaji was going to come first with the man - before our relationship. This wasn't easy even when I was a premie, and it would be intolerable to me now. I do think you might have problems if you receive Knowledge and the level of your devotion is not the same as his - this again is based on my experience.

I also think (and again, this is only my opinion) that trying to help someone who I assume doesn't think he needs help isn't a good foundation for a relationship. I really feel that your only two options are to dump him or let him be.

Mike and Selene mentioned that you should take care of yourself too, and I think this is very important. I am not sure that receiving K will change your relationship with this man, although I can see why both you and he think it might, especially why he thinks it might (I also thought this when I was a premie). As Gerry suggested, reading the pages on this site (see the site map) about the aspirant process and the knowledge session might help you make a decision about whether to receive K or not.

I know you're in a difficult situation - please feel free to post here if you have more questions.

Take care,
Katie
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Date: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 00:16:18 (EST)
From: Miloochie
Email: None
To: Joanna
Subject: HELP
Message:
Joanna,

First of all, welcome. I'm very new to this forum, but not new to much of the content discussed here.

I agree with a lot of the responses you've received. I believe to be in a successful relationship, it is you, first, that must be whole or the entire make-up of it will fall apart. That, I've definitely learned (usually the hard way). That's not selfish. That's real love. It takes using your noggin for it to work.

Unfortunately, the relationship with K and M specifically requires NOT using your noggin. Don't be fooled; essentially nothing has changed from 3 decades ago, just the wrapping paper. The gift is not a gift. You DID always have it inside you. You do right now.

A thought:

If leaving this guy doesn't make sense to you right now, then...

Clarify your relationship with K and M first. Then approach the situation with your partner. In that order. Just a thought.

Love relationships can come and go. But, if you choose to have one with K and M, you could spend a lifetime trying to shake it. And 'choosing' is the wrong word, especially from how you describe your present state with it.

You stated:

I am now considered an aspirant and will probably go through with recieving K because I am curious what will happen to our relationship when I do.

This can sound like, 'He wants me to have his baby and I'll probably go through with it because I am curious what will happen to our relationship when I do.'

Would you do that for curiosity? Your life changed forever?

There's not much to find at the end of the aspirant process, or perhaps nothing at all. You are already 'sincere,' 'thirsty' so-called 'ready'...don't let someone else convince you otherwise. It's a shell game.

The techniques are available from reputable sources, and genuinely 'free.' No strings attached. No 'small print.'

I hope that you have gone to the links gerry pointed to and read them. A present-day insider's revealing of the truth.

My feeling is that if you can truly sort out this K and M stuff regarding JUST YOU, you'll be able to 'see the light' with your present partner (whatever the outcome with him).

Good luck and stick around. 'Lots to learn.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 02:08:48 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Miloochie
Subject: HELP
Message:
You said: will probably go through with recieving K because I am curious what will happen to our relationship when I do.

I'm going to sound like I'm on Maharaji's side, but I don't think that this is a real good reason to get Knowledge and if you let the people in charge and the screeners know this is your reason then they will keep you from getting Knowledge.

Regardless of whether you can get the techniques from the internet, the purpose of the aspirant process is to increase your level of involvement and your commitment to practice Knowledge (Give it a fair chance as they say.) And ultimately to get you to listen, obey, and follow Maharaji. And it is that point, in particular, that most of us have a problem with because we have been under the thumb of Maharaji and it didn't feel that good.

Your experience of receiving Knowledge could be profound or very disappointing. It is more likely to be profound if you have never done any kind of meditation before and it is your first experience of meditation. However, you can most likely experience something from reading and practicing the techniques on the internet. It is interesting to note that the techniques have been made kinder and gentler compared to the techniques that most of us old timers received at the hands of the Indian Mahatmas that Maharaji brought to the West to impart Knowledge. I would say that the current techniques are better than the old techniques and, in fact, the old techniques can actually be physically damaging with no extra experience for the pain and danger. Makes you wonder what kind of teacher Maharaji is to have allowed teaching the wrong techniques.

Good luck. Make your decision carefully. It seems that you are getting strung out on two different fronts with the promise of so much and the potential for a lot of sorrow as well.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 01:51:56 (EST)
From: NP
Email: None
To: Joanna
Subject: HELP
Message:
I am now considered an aspirant and will probably go through with recieving K because I am curious what will happen to our relationship when I do.

It is not worth it to sustain the damage you will by getting involved in a cult just to see what it might do to your relationship. I guess the question really is: Is there really a relationship there that isn't dependent on being a cult member? Answer this: If you say you are not interested in knowledge, what will THAT do to your relationship? Would it continue?

Should I just dump him, try to help him or let him be?

If the answer to the first question isn't satisfactory, dump him and let him be. Save yourself first. But by all means, get the hell out of that aspirant program for your own sanity. Do you want to end 'unhinged' like he is? Why?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 09:52:33 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Joanna
Subject: HELP
Message:
Dr. Laura Schlessinger is an arrogant know-it-all who has a radio show. You may already know about her. I find her incredibly obnoxious and abrasive but her MESSAGE is very good I think, she does make some excellent points about personal responsibility and character. I recommened her book '10 stupid things women do to mess up their lives'. You may not agree with all of it (she's very old fashioned in her morals) but I think she makes some excellent points about how we women can be so hungry for a relationship that we mess up our lives in the process.

Good luck and please don't make any big commitments to knowledge or this guy til you are really sure that they will fully support your being a thinking, evolving human being

Helen
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Date: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 15:31:29 (EST)
From: cp
Email: None
To: Joanna
Subject: run if he...
Message:
.....Tells you that peace and happiness is inside when you start to want to talk about the level of committment you are both experiencing.

.....Acts like he is doing meditaiton while in a confronting conversation.

.....If he slips ANY satsang rhetoric into personal conversations this means trouble.

......The reason it means trouble is that this could mean that he has his deep feelings and inner peocesses in the formalgahide (hows that for spellling) of the knowledge dogma.
If that is the case, and you do mention something about his logic or reasoning< then this element is poison to your relationship.

It is definitely a premie mindset to defer actual emotional processes to a 'Knowledge- should- make Everything- equal- and- therefore- I- dont- have- to- deal- with- it.

The tricky thing is that this element makes the guys incredibly sexy in a zippless sort of way. If you are intimate and you feel that this is when he really shines and you can swear he loves you, but then the intimate connection is deferred into satsang - speak when it comes to the relationship-- OI VEY

--- If he is taking you to videos and then wooing you , it is a textbook Cassanova syndrome.

You will be caught in a co-dependant trap- where you are loving a man who needs M and knowlege and you to keep him protected from himself.

A Litmus test is whether he can handle your pms cycle in manly stride. Hold nothing back on your worst days -Give it to him full tilt and if he utters one single word of satsang- OR looks vague or sugests a video--- dump him.
Goodluck
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Date: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 17:03:15 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: cp
Subject: run if he...
Message:
cp--brilliant.
SOunds like you speak from experience, girl
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Date: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 04:46:41 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: anthginn@yahoo.com
To: Joanna
Subject: HELP
Message:
Hi Joanna,

One question you could ask yourself is, 'Do I want to become a member of a religious cult?', because if you receive knowledge and join in, that's what you will be joining. You'll become a member of a small group of people, most of whom beleive God himself is walking around disguised as Maharaji, and see themselves playing the 'disciples of the living master' role. This won't be obvious to begin with, as the hook is 'knowledge', supposedly an experience of 'God within'. Once hooked, you'll join a little world of people who beleive they are the only ones on earth who have found the truth, the rest of us are in ignorance. They have their own set of wacky beliefs that will be subtly, and not so subtly, instilled into you, as they 'explain' this wonderful inner experience, and lead you further into loony land.

This is all irrelevant of your relationship with the premie. If I were you, I'd back off the premie trip for a while, and see how it affects the relationship. If it's real, it will continue and grow, but if it's dependent on you joining the cult, there's something wrong there. Remember that lots of premies see all non premies as potential converts, and they're not always up front about what they're telling you. For example, when you come along at the start, the emphasis will all be on becoming aware of the inner experience. This is only the first step. Once you're in, all sorts of other stuff follows.

All you'll ever get out of it is four meditation techniques and someone to worship and as God.

My wife of twenty odd years is still a premie and we get on fine. We don't talk about the subject much. I sometimes print stuff out from this site and leave it around at home, and she reads it.

Tread carefully, and understand what you're getting into.

AJW
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Date: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 19:13:19 (EST)
From: cp
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: sounds like
Message:
primal scream
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Date: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 10:23:27 (EST)
From: Cult Member
Email: None
To: Joanna
Subject: HELP
Message:
Dump him. You are role playing with him, pretending to be interested in something very dear to him, while really you would post a message like this? It's clear you are going to hurt him. Go on your way, and try honesty in your next relationship, 'Ms. Spiritual.'
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Date: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 13:05:13 (EST)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Joanna
Subject: HELP
Message:
Hi Joanna,
You have received lots of good advice, what can I possibly add?
Getting K, although you have serious doubts, just for the sake of your relationship, seems a little dishonest. Read all these pages and links carefully on your own. Then express your doubts clearly to him, and show him what's on these web-pages. After seeing how he reacts, you'll be a lot wiser.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 16:02:43 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Cult Member
Subject: Funny....
Message:
Cult: Since K & M aren't supposed to be a 'spiritual trip' these days, I find it funny that you pick on Joanna for saying that she is a spiritual person.

As to your comments concerning her level of 'honesty,' why don't YOU take your own advice and be honest about the fraud himself!
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Date: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 19:11:40 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Joanna
Subject: HELP
Message:
>I am now considered an aspirant and will probably go through with recieving K because I am curious what will happen to our relationship when I do.

Don't recieve K if you don't have an honest personal thirst for it. You would not become a great piano player unless you had a thirst which enabled you to concentrate on practicing scales so as to move to the next level. If you don't have true desire you will not have the motivation to benefit from K.

Depending on K to promote a relationship can only bring you frustration.

I happen to like what M teaches. I went to a K session in 1972 and still go to programs to learn more. It has been beneficial to me.

>Should I just dump him, try to help him or let him be?

Be as honest as you can.
And why would you 'just dump him' if you really 'love' him?

Regards,
CD
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 10:02:11 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: SEE m's inventions online
Message:
Some of them, at least, to start with:

See some of m's inventions

Who said that he never invented anything?
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 19:48:45 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: SEE m's inventions online
Message:
You cannot be serious! That logo is awful. And the brick-a-brack stall at that Indian jumble sale??? Does he actually try and sell that junk?

This is getting worse. Not only does he turn out to be a very bad God imposter but then he brags about patenting a Mickey Mouse watch and now he tries to sell the junk! He's got no taste, no panache. It looks more like the Patel's corner grocery store, by each passing day.
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Date: Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 22:17:42 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Will Denise be another SHP?
Message:
I'm sorry to talk in the third person about you Denise. But I just think that this is such an interesting topic. Having gotten to the SHP place, how does one move on?

See, Denise, I'm a little disappointed that you couldn't call a spade a spade what with all those obvious quotes I posted. Like, AS IF, Maharaji's not anti-intellectual. GMAFB!

So what is this? The facile avoidance of unarguable facts, the myopic faux-superficiality (I say 'faux' because I give premies credit for having at least considered some of the 'deeper' issues enthralling man; that's more than a lot of people do).

Denise, if you don't use your mind here you could indeed get shp-wrecked on your own desert island, neither in the cult nor safely out of it.

Good luck!
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Date: Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 23:27:08 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jim/Denise
Subject: 'can't cope, my last hope'
Message:
I can only conclude that for some, Maharaji is their last hope and that giving him up is too devastating.

I can't understand why anyone can still 'believe' in him after hanging around here for awhile.

I am really curious about this 'last hope' theory. Was it easier for me to give up Maharaji because I believed in God already? But wait, there are plenty of people who post here who don't believe in God, who certainly were able to get on with their lives without Maharaji. Do people come to Maharaji when they have exhausted every other possibility for happiness? So if he's their last hope, then giving him up means entering a void
Denise I get impatient with you because you seem like a very smart sincere person. It seems like you have concluded that because you are having a great experience in meditation, then Maharaji is okay.. Since you are having an experience of bliss, does that make it okay that he has done tons of unethical things and has not responded in a human way to the suffering of his devotees?. You are willing to overlook his immorality because of an EXPERIENCE. Correct me if I am wrong here.
I know I just harp and harp at you but I am really hoping you will get off the fence. I admit, I DO have an agenda that you will be able to make that moral leap. You can still have meditation you know! Hey, if you don't want to apply logic to the meditation, don't. But please apply logic to the character of the man dispensing knowledge
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 01:22:41 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com
To: Helen
Subject: I disagree with all this
Message:
Denise can come over to England and do a group meditation with me any time, I'll join her on the third technique.

I don't think myself that it is for any of us to try to turn anyone round to a different way of viewing Maharaji and his business. I intensly dislike that idea as it is a bit like being thought police. It's up to people to have their own views on Maharaji etc and not our place to try to force them over to a different way of thinking.

For instance, if I now said that I felt a deep and abiding love for Maharaji and you people layed a trip on me about how misguided I was; then I'd be most annoyed and say it was none of your business what I felt or thought.

I strongly feel that I am out of place to expect someone to think the same way as I do about things. Everyone has a right to free thought and free expression. If a person WANTS to leave Maharaji's way then that's fine. But if they want to remain a devotee of his that is their right also and I don't feel I have a right to critisise that or make them think as I do.

If they are presented with the facts, they can make their own mind up about Maharaji. Ex-premies trying to force people over to their way of thinking shows a lack of freedom and is treating people like children. In making my point here, this might sound dogmatic or blunt but I'm just trying to get a deeply held feeling across. Nobody has the right to try to make others think the same way as they do. People have to come to their own conclusions by themselves.
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 02:46:08 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: I disagree with you SIr David
Message:
'I don't think myself that it is for any of us to try to turn anyone round to a different way of viewing Maharaji and his business'

Well I see it exactly the same at trying to turn around a fascist thinker or someone who believes the earth is flat.
Foe me leaving prempal has been like coming back from the dead. I would vocalise anything if I thought it may help anyone else out of there.

All the best Jethro
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 07:39:16 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: It's one of my principles!
Message:
While I agree that I've been better off having broken the mental chains which Maharaji put there, I wouldn't have taken too kindly to people saying that I was thinking the wrong way before and had to think like them.

In actual fact, when I first posted about Maharaji on the net a few years ago, I was a neutral regarding Maharaji and did say some things in favour of him. I was annoyed that I immediately got a load of responses flaming me for some of my pro Maharaji views. I remember thinking that these people had no right to critisise me in what I thought especially since they were staunch premies themselves in the past. I felt it smacked of a closed club, some kind of thought police whereupon if you toed the ex-premie party line you were considered an OK guy/girl but if you showed dissent you were ostracized or critisized.

'Who the hell are these people telling me what to think?' I thought at the time. 'If I decide to reject Maharaji then I'll do it in my own time.' I have a deep aversion to people telling me what I should be thinking or feeling about something. I suspect other people are the same.
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 10:22:55 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Sir David
Subject: Project premies
Message:
I agree with you on this, David, so you're not alone in your thinking. When I first found the forum and started working through my conflicts on Maharaji and the underlying beliefs that supported the pretense, I was pretty hostile to premies who posted here. They represented a viewpoint that I had held, and I 'used' them to mirror the inner debate that was going on.

I can't say with any authority that it's a natural step in anyone else's progress in sorting it all out, or that people will all end up sharing my views. Sometimes I think that, but people are always more diverse than I like to remember. The same sort of mindset led me to speak to them about Maharaji being the lord in the first place - the belief that I was where they would end up as soon as they accepted what I said as true. That sort of thinking still dominates the conversations in the forum at times.

I've also seen (and taken part in) the ongoing process of adopting a particular 'premie' that is willing to examine his/her views, and then turning them into a 'project' that can be 'completed' if they can only be coerced into cooperating and following the 'simple' steps to 'freedom'. I tend to view it as therapy for those ex's who are still wrestling with their own inner 'premie' voices.

You wrote:
I felt it smacked of a closed club, some kind of thought police whereupon if you toed the ex-premie party line you were considered an OK guy/girl but if you showed dissent you were ostracized or critisized.

Maybe it will help to see that this forum, although premies post here, exists for the benefit of those who are trying to work through the beliefs that once 'proved' Maharaji was the Lord. That they tend to take such strong 'anti-premie' stands now can be seen as a sign that there's still healing going on - not that it's necessarily true :)

I've often seen a desire expressed here by newer arrivals to do something to 'stop' Maharaji, or to turn around the thinking of those who settle their inner conflicts in a different manner. After someone decides that Maharaji isn't the Lord, they have to wrestle with the questions that viewing him as the Lord settled in their minds long ago. Sometimes it's easier for now to find a compromise belief that allows them to continue to function in the lives that they've made since then.

BTW, you said that you'd be willing to practice the third technique with Denise anytime. Now I'm sitting here wondering whether you had a far more interesting Knowledge session than I did...
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 10:57:44 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Reality strikes
Message:
I can't say with any authority that it's a natural step in anyone else's progress in sorting it all out, or that people will all end up sharing my views. Sometimes I think that, but people are always more diverse than I like to remember. The same sort of mindset led me to speak to them about Maharaji being the lord in the first place - the belief that I was where they would end up as soon as they accepted what I said as true. That sort of thinking still dominates the conversations in the forum at times.

Brian,

Everyone loves a liberal, eh? It sounds to me like you've jsut pulled one of your old liberal costumes out of the closet. It doesn't look half bad. Maybe you can even wear it out this weekened or something.

Any rational person, fully informed about Maharaji's trip but not in it would easily find Maharaji a fraud. There aren't too many ways to classify a former child Lord of the Universe, avatar deluxe whose extremely slick money-making machine allows him to brag about being a 'successful investor'. But that's just one angle. Focussing on any facet of the Maharaji story leads to the same conclusion -- the man's a fake.

If you can think of another way to slice this I'd love to hear it. Until then, I say there's only one reasonable way to view this and it's fair to expect anyone considering Maharaji reasonably to reach that same conclusion. To call that kind of certainty analogous to the blindered, irrational, spoon-fed mentality supporting Maharaji is a classic reduction ad absurdism. It's not pedantic or improperly closed-minded to insist that the world's not flat.
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 11:41:44 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Jim
Subject: Reality strikes BACK
Message:
You've never astounded me with your tolerance of other people's feelings, or your sensitivity toward the inner turmoil that results when basic belief systems are demolished. You've shown none. Yet I don't believe that it's beyond your ability to feel or express any.

Still, I have to accept you on the only terms you choose to show yourself through - as someone who would use other people as sharp knives to be turned against Maharaji after being honed hard against your personal standards. And not because it's in THEIR best interest, but because it's in yours.

I never said that Maharaji isn't a fraud. Nice try. I said that the realization of that fact causes EXTREME upset and trauma to normal feeling human beings. You would quote that yourself if you were to read it in Dawkin's words.

There are people who post here who delight in 'winning' by kicking the support structures out from people's lives - and justifying it by saying (rightly) that those systems were flawed.

There are others who try to help real human beings sort through the emotional wreckage that results from 'losing' to you, Jim.

And there are people who are very careful who they open up to in life. They lurk here, or post tentatively, because they see how the sharks react to the first drop of blood. Never mind that it drips from real wounds. Gouge deeper. After all, it's for their own good.

Call me all the names you want.
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 11:58:09 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: A good Balance
Message:
Brian,

Someone has to kick out the supports of a false belief system if these destructive and harmful belief systems are ever to be exposed. I think we all agree being in M's cult is a bad thing.

The main problem I have with it is that it is self spawning, it constantly needs new recruits to keep going. If the cult members would just keep to themselves, it would only be harmful to them. Bad as that is, at least it would end there. But that's not the way it is.

You mentioned support structures. Is cult membership some sort of a support structure? Maybe it is in some perverse way, but it is a rotten, teetering structure indeed.

So we have the ''sharks'' and the healers. Both are necessary. We have them both here, and it's a pretty good balance.
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 15:32:36 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: Reality strikes BACK (long)
Message:
I am sure this will come as no surprise to anyone who reads this forum regularly, but I agree with Sir David and Brian. (And, as I'm sure you know, Jim, I am FAR more liberal than Brian :).

I wrote most of the following in a post to Denise below, but I'll repeat it. I think she's shown tremendous courage by coming on to the forum and being willing to discuss her feelings and doubts about Maharaji honestly and openly. In my experience (someone asked me about this yesterday), almost all the premies who are having doubts, or have questions, lurk on the forum until they feel that they can come out as 'ex-premies'. I understand why people do this, and I certainly can relate, it's scary to be really honest about how you are feeling and then to come under attack for what you're expressing.

I've been reading and posting on the forum for a long time, and it has increased my tolerance for other people's beliefs tremendously. I feel like I've learned how to respect other people's thoughts and feelings much more than I did before I came here. So here's my two cents.

I don't think that invalidating people's feelings (I'm talking emotions here) or experiences by telling them they are 'wrong' or that they shouldn't have those feelings is ever productive. I experienced this a lot as a child, and it didn't help at all. To be able to communicate with someone, I think you have to accept the fact that they feel a certain way, or have experienced something to be a certain way, as a given. Then the two of you might be able to discuss why the person has that feeling, or why they had that experience - is it based on reality or not? But I think it's very important to accept people's feelings and experiences as valid - not doing so precludes further communication.

I also don't think you can tell someone what to think. I have never had anyone successfully change my thinking by telling me that I SHOULD think this or the other. What has helped me is other people telling me what THEY think and why. It's also been helpful when people pointed out what they thought were errors in my thought process, as long as they stated these as their opinion, and backed them up by their own experiences.

I have found that the most real communication occurs on the forum when people just share their own experiences with Maharaji & etc. It's a lot easier for me to learn or understand things when people tell me what they experienced. I lived with two ex-premies when I was still a premie, and they never tried to 'talk me out' of being a premie. They just accepted me, and were honest about how they felt about Maharaji without expecting me to feel the same way. That REALLY helped me, and I do feel like I made my own decision to leave at the time that was right for me because they did this. Plus the three of us all had a lot of doubts and fears about leaving and we were able to talk to each other about them without fear of judgement - that helped a lot too (thank you, Paul and Hillary!).

Jim said something in this thread about how Selene's acceptance of Denise was patronizing (which I assume he meant as to treat in a condescending manner). I don't think Selene was being patronizing, and here's why. I have a lot of beliefs that have caused me far more pain than my belief in Maharaji ever did (I know this isn't true for everyone on here, but it was for me.) Some of these beliefs caused me to get involved with Maharaji in the first place. I have talked to many people about these beliefs, and I have never felt that they were being patronizing when they accepted that I felt that way (even if they didn't believe the same thing). I know I'm not RIGHT all the time, and that what I believe is not necessarily the truth. I don't agree with Denise's feelings and beliefs about Maharaji, and I would guess that she wouldn't agree with some of my beliefs about other things. Does this mean we are patronizing each other? I don't think so.

Finally, I wanted to comment on what Brian said about some of the messages ex-premies write to premies here. I do think it's healthy for ex-premies to talk to and get angry with premies who express some of the thoughts and feelings that the exes had when they were premies themselves, but I think that much of the anger comes from the fact that we also had those same thoughts and feelings and are angry that WE had them, and that we have a need to talk back to the part of ourselves that had those feelings (as externalized by premies). Otherwise, why do we get so angry - many times to the point of over-reaction and name-calling? I think Brian was right (and very perceptive) about this.

Also, if anyone has persevered through this extremely long message until now, I wanted to re-express (I have said this a lot) my feelings about the forum and the site. My intention in posting here, and in working with Brian on the site and forum, was to make this a place where ex-premies (and others who needed help) could get support and talk to each other. My purpose in being here is not to convert premies, or to 'bring Maharaji down'. If other people who post here have these goals, then that's OK, but they're not my goals. Brian and I have necessarily had to clarify and limit our goals so we can work more effectively on what we do here: maintaining the ex-premie site and forum. I hope that all of you can understand this.

Take care, all -
Katie
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 20:46:54 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Thanks Katie
Message:
I don't think that invalidating people's feelings (I'm talking emotions here) or experiences by telling them they are 'wrong' or that they shouldn't have those feelings is ever productive.

Well, it sure isn't if you don't give a damn if they change or not. Hell, at that point, who gives a shit anyway? Premies are comfortable being premies, ex's aren't. What's there to talk about? Maharaji? Oh let him be already!

You know, in my line of work I often go toe to toe with someone on some point of contention. It sometimes happens that the other person will tell me in no uncertain terms that I'm wrong. Of course I think they're wrong. So, what do we do about it? We argue, search for support and ultimately, if we're lucky, find th truth of the matter.

Maharaji is a fraud. There are ample facts to support that claim. The only way premies avoid accepting that simple, simple fact is by shucking and jiving. That's tolerable to a point but not forever.

I experienced this a lot as a child, and it didn't help at all. To be able to communicate with someone, I think you have to accept the fact that they feel a certain way, or have experienced something to be a certain way, as a given.

That eh premies feel a certain way is a given. Who's arguing with that? But how they interpret their experiences is a whole different question. In fact, it's the central question, isn't it? I saw light too only now I think it's a neurological parlour trick and not the light of God. It would be absurd for me to say that I 'accept' that someone's experienced 'God' through these techniques no matter how much they think that's beyond dispute and are offended that I would question their 'experience'.

Then the two of you might be able to discuss why the person has that feeling, or why they had that experience - is it based on reality or not? But I think it's very important to accept people's feelings and experiences as valid - not doing so precludes further communication.

Katie, what in the world do you mean by 'accept' anyway? We all know premies think like premies (and as former premies we know the tour). So what's this acceptance thing? I don't get it.
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 15:59:01 (EST)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Thank you Brian and Katie
Message:
I don't have a lot of time right now but I just want to express my appreciation to you both for saying what you say here. It means a lot to me.

And David too. I appreciated your post.
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 20:10:01 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Thanks Brian
Message:
You've never astounded me with your tolerance of other people's feelings, or your sensitivity toward the inner turmoil that results when basic belief systems are demolished. You've shown none. Yet I don't believe that it's beyond your ability to feel or express any.

Oh, is it time for my sensitivity smog test? Fine then.
Let me tell you how much pain I feel on behalf of all the confused premies that post here: lots.

Okay, how'd I do?

Still, I have to accept you on the only terms you choose to show yourself through - as someone who would use other people as sharp knives to be turned against Maharaji after being honed hard against your personal standards. And not because it's in THEIR best interest, but because it's in yours.

Yes, you're right. My secret, machiavellian agenda lies exposed. Of course you were always part of it, Brian. You, Katie, Joe and, if you must know, Satpal himself. Anyway, I'm not worried. The perfect plan's unstoppable. I, Jim, will win! Many times I have come before but this time...

I never said that Maharaji isn't a fraud. Nice try. I said that the realization of that fact causes EXTREME upset and trauma to normal feeling human beings. You would quote that yourself if you were to read it in Dawkin's words.

And I never said you never said he was a fraud. Nice try yourself. Nor did I deny the trauma one might endure realizing as much. With all due respect, I think you misunderstood me. You had said:

I can't say with any authority that it's a natural step in anyone else's progress in sorting it all out, or that people will all end up sharing my views. Sometimes I think that, but people are always more diverse than I like to remember. The same sort of mindset led me to speak to them about Maharaji being the lord in the first place - the belief that I was where they would end up as soon as they accepted what I said as true. That sort of thinking still dominates the conversations in the forum at times.

I was merely saying that there's no more virtue in respecting peoples' 'diverse' views on the subject than there is respecting peoples' 'diverse' views on other indisputable facts (like the shape of the earth). A lot of premies are sure Maharaji's divine, a lot of ex's are sure he isn't. The strength of their convictions is a superficial similiarity. You can't lose sight of why they think the way they do. The premies have been hoodwinked and tricked into never properly thinking the matter through. The ex's have used their minds to consider all they've known and experienced in life as well as whatever else information they can get on the subject in reaching their conclusion. The premies can't rationally defend their views but employ every possible evasion to avoid the facts. The ex's can and do think things through, discuss them, and try, it seems, to seek out the truth, something the premies have long since forgotten.

Obviously, I find your comparison insulting.

There are people who post here who delight in 'winning' by kicking the support structures out from people's lives - and justifying it by saying (rightly) that those systems were flawed.

Yes, I'm one of those people. I'm not the least bit inclined to leave someone at peace in their devotion to Maharaji if I can help it. Yet don't think I haven't thought about this issue (back ot the smog test, I guess.) Here's a question:

If you had a very persuasive videotaped confession from Maharaji admitting that he was a fraud would you show it to Anne Johnson on her death bed even as she's muttering arti under her breath?

I would. At least I think I would.

But say you're a little more sensitive and all that, when would you take it upon yourself to rock someone's boat? I take it you'd fight pretty strenuously to keep Maharaji from snagging some fresh young 15 year old. Right? How about someone middle-aged? What if they show some tentative interest in discussing him but not the courage to really think it through?

I think these are good questions. Where do you bite your tongue and leave the person happy in their delusion? We already know what I'd do. Care to answer on behalf of sensitive people, Brian?

There are others who try to help real human beings sort through the emotional wreckage that results from 'losing' to you, Jim.

That's absurd.

And there are people who are very careful who they open up to in life. They lurk here, or post tentatively, because they see how the sharks react to the first drop of blood. Never mind that it drips from real wounds. Gouge deeper. After all, it's for their own good.

I won't even begin to discuss your own history of prodding, cajoling, ridiculing and castigating premies. You've obviously turned over a new leaf. Congratulations.

Call me all the names you want.

None come to mind. Sorry.
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 23:31:54 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Thanks Brian
Message:
You do make a point Jim. I too have 'castrated' premeis here - heh why do I like that word so much right now?
Many of us have.

Besides the unfortunately correct Gerry theory, I reacted today because it seemed kind of extreme to go on about Denise. I have been reading similar stuff directed at her for a while.

I guess you have the 'one life at a time' attitude that if you can make one person turn away from M you have done what you obviously strongly believe in.
I tend to be more general in my approach, perhaps more manipulative if it comes down to it. I write silly stories, tell true stories that aren't so silly but come from painful expeience, etc. I don't try to 'get' at the core of any one person.

I am sorry I was so snotty today.
I am not able to be as verbose as you are and so sometimes I use the one liner attack method.

Anyway, I still don't agree with all your tactics but what you just said to Brian struck a chord, I have done the same thing.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 10:32:58 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Jim
Subject: You're welcome
Message:
Everyone loves a liberal, eh? It sounds to me like you've jsut pulled one of your old liberal costumes out of the closet. It doesn't look half bad. Maybe you can even wear it out this weekened or something.

You may believe that you can blow off dissenting opinion by timid premies with statements like this, but don't expect to do it to me with impunity. I'm not someone who only lurks here out of fear of this sort of response from you, and I'm not going to be cowed by your slap of disapproval. Your views are not the standard by which people (myself included) are to measure themselves in life.

I'm not some backsliding project premie that you can bring up short when I don't conform to the sort of coercive pressure that I denounced in my first post in this thread, or when I dare to step out of line with what you believe to be the correct views on Maharaji or premies. People who dare to open up to complete strangers in this forum know that they risk having you on their ass if they don't completely conform to your belief system - and on your personal time-table.

I don't share all of your views. You don't have to share any of mine, but you had better respect them as being MINE - rather than dismissing them as being dress-up opinions. Otherwise, you can expect to see my personal respect for you vaporize.

I wrote:
Still, I have to accept you on the only terms you choose to show yourself through - as someone who would use other people as sharp knives to be turned against Maharaji after being honed hard against your personal standards. And not because it's in THEIR best interest, but because it's in yours.

And you 'responded':
Yes, you're right. My secret, machiavellian agenda lies exposed. Of course you were always part of it, Brian. You, Katie, Joe and, if you must know, Satpal himself. Anyway, I'm not worried. The perfect plan's unstoppable. I, Jim, will win! Many times I have come before but this time...

I stand by my words. You skipped around them entirely as if they were nothing worth your time - even as you wasted it composing your 'response'.

If you had a very persuasive videotaped confession from Maharaji admitting that he was a fraud would you show it to Anne Johnson on her death bed even as she's muttering arti under her breath? I would. At least I think I would.

Unfortunately, I have to agree that you would, and so would many who have read your posts. Both Katie and I have gotten email from people seeking support, but who are afraid of YOU finding out who they are. The points that you think you win by 'outing' people or quoting their private email here only serve to keep you outside the loop at a low level of trust. Does this bother you?

You chose this scenario to illustrate your personal principles. Showing someone on their deathbed that their entire life was wasted serves no purpose other than spite. And of course, you might just get to hear the words, 'You're right, Jim'.

I think your scenario only serves to illustrate the points I made - that you place harming Maharaji and 'winning' debates with premies far above the emotional consequences suffered by those who are trying to shake off their false beliefs. Your support for their efforts is guided by the personal reward to you when you get to 'win'.

I think it's sad that those who are afraid to trust you are better guided by that feeling than by your appeal to cold logic. Almost as sad as the fact that you just refuse to see it.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 11:16:24 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Ex Sensitivity Training?
Message:
Brian,

Will you knock this off please? I'm simply not going to get into a pissing match with you over who's got the most caring nature and attitude towards premies. You keep talking about emotional harm premies suffer if and when they begin to extricate themselves from the cult. You're making it sound like you're some burns specialist chastising orderlies for removing bandages too quickly. And now you think you've found one despicable character who's been seen to smirk a bit as the patients say 'ouch'.

I don't give a flying fuck about the email you and Katie get 'seeking support' regarding me. Oh, I guess it'd be a little fun reading it if you felt like posting it but otherwise, believe me, I don't care. I say what I think here. I'm perfectly comfortable with how sensitive and empathetic a person I am and unless you've got some real example to show me how or where I've unnecessarily hurt anyone, I refuse to take your criticism seriously. I look forward to your example.

And, by the way, I do think it's a great question whether or not Denise will get shp-wrecked. What do you think?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 14:38:21 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: a clarification
Message:
Jim,
I want to make a clarification here, although you may already know this. You wrote:

I don't give a flying fuck about the email you and Katie get 'seeking support' regarding me.

Almost all of this e-mail is from ex-premies, not premies. A lot of these people have spiritual beliefs that are not related to Maharaji. You have constantly flamed or ridiculed people for having any spiritual or psychological belief that doesn't agree with YOUR belief in evolutionary psychology and atheism (and, I guess, sex, drugs, drinking, and live rock and roll). I have seen you do this on subjects ranging from Krisnamurti to codependency to Walker Percy, none of which have anything to do with Maharaji.

Also, some of these people have spouses or relatives that are premies - people they love and care about - and they don't want to see these people dissed or dismissed just because they are premies.

You wrote:
I say what I think here.
That's your privilege, and I have defended it to many people. I also have the right to disagree with you and say that it bothers me that ex-premies feel they can't post here because they're afraid of being flamed by you. I know that your emphatic and flaming posts have been salutory and helpful for some of the people on here, but I do want to tell you the other side of the story.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 17:16:08 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: a clarification
Message:
Right on Katie. Jim, I agree with everything Katie has said here. You seem void of concern for the effect you have on others. Yes you are smart but what about give and take in a community. You use the 'war' metaphor a lot--saying that this is a war. But this is not a blood sport, this is a discussion.

I care about this community of people. If they confront me with something, I weigh their words, because I respect them. Do you think you have no more room for growth? Do you care so little about what your fellow ex-premies think of you? If so, I think you are foolish.

It was the mention of Walker Percy that did it!! I still can't forget how you dissed him summarily, a hero of mine and countless others., the man who pulled me out of the depths of hell, and who pulled himself out of the depths of hell
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Date: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 17:25:16 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: and furthermore...
Message:
I read that Dawkins book 'River Out of Eden' out of respect for you. Would you have read 'The Second Coming' by Walker Percy out of respect for me? No
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Date: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 20:38:24 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Mommy! Mommy!
Message:
Almost all of this e-mail is from ex-premies, not premies. A lot of these people have spiritual beliefs that are not related to Maharaji. You have constantly flamed or ridiculed people for having any spiritual or psychological belief that doesn't agree with YOUR belief in evolutionary psychology and atheism (and, I guess, sex, drugs, drinking, and live rock and roll). I have seen you do this on subjects ranging from Krisnamurti to codependency to Walker Percy, none of which have anything to do with Maharaji.

You're right these things have nothing to do with Maharaji, well not much anyway. But in each case they've been invoked as authorities or pet theories by someone here. So what's the big deal if I state my opinion a bit? Yeah, I think Krishnamurti's a boring, pompous ass. So what if I think 'co-dependence' is an empty idea. As for Walker Percy, I took another look at some of his ideas, read a couple of interviews, all on the net. Obviously the guy's made a strong impact on a lot of readers. I see that. But I also see yet another spiritual critic of science who seems exceedingly full of himself and who enjoys primping for his fans at the expense of all those silly two-dimensional science types. Fine, Dawkins does the same thing pretty much vis-a-vis religion. So what I asked Helen the first time out is what this guy says that's so novel or interesting. I don't recall her answer. Do you?

Also, some of these people have spouses or relatives that are premies - people they love and care about - and they don't want to see these people dissed or dismissed just because they are premies.

Give me a fucking break, Katie. Why do you even bother to say such things to me? So I can then say something like 'Give me a fucking break, Katie. Why do you even bother so say such things to me? So I can then say something like 'Give me a fucking break, Katie. Why do I even...''
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Date: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 21:53:53 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I ain't your mama
Message:
dear Jim -
You wrote:
Give me a fucking break, Katie. Why do you even bother to say such things to me?

Here's the answer - it's in the last paragraph of my previous post to you, which read:
You wrote:
I say what I think here.
That's your privilege, and I have defended it to many people. I also have the right to disagree with you and say that it bothers me that ex-premies feel they can't post here because they're afraid of being flamed by you. I know that your emphatic and flaming posts have been salutory and helpful for some of the people on here, but I do want to tell you the other side of the story.


I know we're never going to agree on this, Jim - so what? I can still tell you what I think. I've wanted to say this for a long time, but I don't expect you to change your behavior because of what I say.

Now, if you see fit to do so, will you please give ME a fucking break and stop posting satirical and sarcastic asides about me and my attitude problem in your posts to other people on the forum? I'd appreciate it if you'd say these things directly to me.

Regards,
Katie
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Date: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 22:03:47 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: How do you think I feel?
Message:
Now, if you see fit to do so, will you please give ME a fucking break and stop posting satirical and sarcastic asides about me and my attitude problem in your posts to other people on the forum? I'd appreciate it if you'd say these things directly to me. (mine)

Yes, I understand. So perhaps you can give all my anonymous critics the same advice? Hm?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 23:07:11 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: more clarification
Message:
Dear Jim -
Most of these people did not criticize you AT ALL - I hope you can understand this. Without quoting anyone directly, I can say that the general feeling was that they were afraid to post on the forum because they didn't want to tangle with you. OK? You may see this as a criticism of you, but I do not.

When people HAVE criticized you directly, I have defended you. Like someone said (you probably know who, but I don't), I don't agree with some of what what you say or the way you say it, but I'll defend your right to say it. I also know your posts have helped a lot of people here.

Hope this clarifies matters a bit.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 23:15:29 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: and I should add...
Message:
...that I was the one who criticized you in public. This was based on my own feelings about scaring people away from the forum. So if you've got something to say to me, then please say it to ME.

Regards,
Katie
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Date: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 23:23:21 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Oh, see ..(?)
Message:
Most of these people did not criticize you AT ALL - I hope you can understand this.

Yes, Katie, I've got it now.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 16:29:27 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Jim
Subject: [Shrug]
Message:
Will you knock this off please? I'm simply not going to get into a pissing match with you over who's got the most caring nature and attitude towards premies.

Okay, but first...

And, by the way, I do think it's a great question whether or not Denise will get shp-wrecked. What do you think?

I haven't followed all the posts by her, so I don't have some feel for it. But I'm glad to see both her and SHP openly discussing the topics here as much as they have. She's posted about having spent tough times trying to sort through it all, and I don't have any reason to believe that her tears were spoken about just for effect.

It doesn't matter to me who realizes that Maharaji is a selfish fraud or doesn't. As long as they don't have to feel that it's being jimmed down their throats.
(Okay, I'll stop now.)
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Date: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 22:21:06 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: I don't believe you, Brian
Message:
It doesn't matter to me who realizes that Maharaji is a selfish fraud or doesn't.

Brian,

I'm not going to make the obvious joke about you picking up the Katie meme on this point. But I will say that I think your claim defies human nature. Look, maybe I'm wrong (I'm being serious about this, by the way). Maybe other people really don't think like I do in this respect but, I'm sorry, my firm conviction is that people care about these things. We DO like to see our enemies dissed and become unpopular. It's human nature.

I could go on but it's really such a simple point. I think it's only natural for people who feel about Maharaji as you must to care about these things.
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Date: Sat, Mar 06, 1999 at 13:16:21 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, you are living proof
Message:
that both premies and ex-premies can be assholes.

You are also living proof that a brain and a mouth without a heart
actively involved in the action can be a truly tragic and painful thing to witness.

And I speak without anger, malice or spite. It's just a fact.

If you were still a premie, you'd still be an asshole if you were dealing like this.

Being a premie or an ex-premie doesn't asshole-proof anybody.

So you are dishing negativity to memebers of your own group (I hesitate to call it a 'peer' group because your actions imply you are above everyone else here) and you are being given constructive feedback based on critical thinking which you ignore.

Communicating with you is like dealing with a bottomless pit.

You are an energy drain and a drag.

Someday you will have to pay rent for the negative tools that you use around here, and you may not want to pay the price.

So critically thinking, if you don't respect feedback that would require you to change your behavior (in your eyes that's weak, but in reality it's strong), then you are suffering from the sin of pride and arrogance, which is truly deadly. In your proud delusion,you are out for no one else but yourself. You are all alone if you do this, just like your premie-twin counterpart who exists somewhere, who has Knowledge and abuses others. What's the diff? Nada.

Wake up and smell the monitor.
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 21:02:57 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Reality strikes BACK
Message:
Amen, Brian.
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 10:34:37 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Sir David/Brian
Subject: It's one of my principles!
Message:
I'm just voicing my honest opinions here. I'm currently mediating a dispute between a child care center and the parents who are upset with it. Believe me, I try not to tell other people what to think. WHen it comes to this however, I get a litle carried away. Since I respect you both so much, I will take your words under advisement.

Love
Helen
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 11:10:22 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Where's the big principle?
Message:
Believe me, I try not to tell other people what to think.

Helen,

Where's the virtue in this?
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 12:52:58 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Where's the big principle?
Message:
Well, I am invested in showing senstivity to people, and I do acknowledge that there is relativity in this world...different perspectives. I do speak out strongly about the things I believe in but telling people what to think doesn't work anyway, Jim.
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 13:02:13 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jim/everyone
Subject: Where's the big principle?
Message:
In my post to Jim and Denise I did 'own' the fact that I have a bias--I have a bias that I'd like to see a bright strong person like Denise see that GM is a fraud. I'd like to see everyone see that. I think Brian's point was a good one,though, that we can't make anyone our 'project'--that's insulting and people are going to resist that anyway.

I do see it as a moral issue--and I probably sound like a kvetch here half the time. I get incensed that people can't see him for what he is, but hey, I'm human and I get angry about stuff.

So there's a balance--I personally want people to feel comfortable posting here,
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 20:49:08 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Thanks Helen
Message:
Well, I am invested in showing senstivity to people, and I do acknowledge that there is relativity in this world...different perspectives. I do speak out strongly about the things I believe in but telling people what to think doesn't work anyway, Jim.

Okay, Helen. I'll try to remember.
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 23:55:57 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Thanks Helen
Message:
Come on Jim, what do you REALLY think? Come on, torture me a little
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 23:43:05 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Virtues
Message:
SO tell me Jim what are the virtues that you try to live up to?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 00:26:18 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Virtues
Message:
Glad to see you aren't the only one who only gets answered
to a point.
oh well, I don't care. I am just spending time because the damned moon is giving me insomnia (another idea that would be trashed considerably if there wasn't better material at the moment.)

Anyway I'll answer you and you can answer me. I'm not bad in court either. Have had to appear twice in leiu of lawyers that didn't show up. And I won. Both times.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 02:54:02 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Thanks Maharaji
Message:
Oh, dear Lord, thank you for giving me your precious Knowledge, the sun, the moon, the stars and your premies. Without you I am nothing. Without you I am hopeless.

Oh, my god! What am I saying? Started off with Thanks Maharaji and I was overtaken by an alien spirit.

Thanks everyone for posting whatever. I think that it good and healthy that there is no real consensus on Forum and that there are so many different personalities and so forth. Certainly, keeps the drama and interest level high.

I also strongly believe that we are fortunate to have the premies here saying what they say for reasons Brian mentioned and because it provides an opportunity to openly and publicly challenge their beliefs and the beliefs of the cult in general.

Regardless of whether these people are ever convinced that they are wrong, the unseen, hidden benefit may go to premie-fence sitters, people considering getting into Maharaji and other lurkers who come to the Forum for whatever reason they come here for. This is an opportunity to get the message across that may help people avoid the trauma altogether or to allow an escape and exit and for healing.

The Lord works in mysterious ways.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 09:13:42 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: Thanks Maharaji
Message:
Thanks barney, I agree. I like it that we can discuss these issues honestly. I respect the opinions of people here a lot and it makes me think. I think it is a rare place indeed, and as you and Sir D pointed out people are benefiting from it greatly even if there are fireworks here now and then
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Date: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 09:23:17 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Talk to me baby (ot)
Message:
Hi there. I get insomnia at that time of the month also. ANd on full moons. Let's face it, a lot of time and energy is taken up by this whole matter of reproduction and hormones. We run around trying to perform at peak levels when maybe we should be sitting int he menstruation hut communing with our ancestors.
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 10:37:44 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: You should be grateful, David
Message:
David,

I don't get it. You joined this ongoing conversation confused and ambivalent about Maharaji. People who had already closed the door on him challenged you in your tentative, speculative, equivocal support for him. Did you like that at the time? Well, maybe not always. You obviously didn't hate it that much cuase you never split. Somehow, in the intervening time, you've come to recognize the group for the cult it really is.

So what are you saying? You didn't benefit from the debate? You didn't benefit from the inital confrontation? I find that surprising to hear. I also wonder how to make sense of your sentiment given all the things you yourself have said in the ongoing anti-m argument here.
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 14:36:05 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: It's simple
Message:
I was not swayed by anyone telling me what to think or by anyone confronting my views but I was swayed by the facts about Maharaji as a person which gradually came to light.

I'd not been a premie since 1983 so I was hardly a gung-ho devotee but I had kept the impression of Maharaji from the seventies and early eighties with me all those years. I didn't need any advice on whether to meditate or not but I was still unsure of the validity of Maharaji himself. I needed 'something to go on', some facts about the man who was the Lord. I was given plenty of information and then I came to my own conclusions.

No persuasion or force was needed. After I knew all the facts I made up my own mind. Surely this is the same for most people since nobody likes to be cajoled or argued with in order to believe something. On something as personal as one's own belief system, one has to know it for oneself. No amount of argument makes an ounce of difference. Helen is correct when she says what she does.
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 16:45:36 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Sir Dave/Katie
Subject: This discussion
Message:
I think this discussion is important. This community is very important to me. In fact, I cherish it.

I cherish the honesty here. It's so rare.

Thanks guys
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 20:14:52 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Could'a fooled me
Message:
I was not swayed by anyone telling me what to think or by anyone confronting my views but I was swayed by the facts about Maharaji as a person which gradually came to light.

I'd like to see some of those old threads sometime. That's sure not how I remember it. I mean it was your mind after all but still I seem to recall you working a lot of things out through discussion here. Had you been irrational in the discussion, you would have gotten the same heat, from me at least, anyoen else would. 'One size fits all' in this respect.
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 12:01:42 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: It's one of my principles!
Message:
Sir David,

I am personally greatful to the Born Again Christians, The Mormons, The Muslims, The Come-Home Lubuvitch, The Hare Krishnas, The Children of God, The Theosophists, The Conservative Party, The Labour Party, Screaming Lord Sutch, Jehovas Witnesses, Razda People, Ahmadis, Guru Maharaj Ji(not prempal), devotees of Sai Baba, The Green Party....and others...all of whom had insisted that I think like them.
The ones that I was not successful in bringing to M& K, left me with the feeling that they had the same amount of faith as me....it took many years to admit this to myself but actions such as those made the first 'drips' happen.
Thank Zod for big mouths.

Jethro
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 11:10:41 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: I disagree with all this
Message:
Thanks David. In my current criticising mode, angry at the universe, etc... I almost most a no test title

Denise Will Be Denise!

I mean what is this? If something here makes her 'keep coming back' well good. That's what it takes. I lurked on this site a lot before I knew I wasn't a premie any more. I read the Bob Mishler interview and was convinced, yet still went to the next gooroodoo.

Eventually, enough mean things were done to me, enough drips happened, I got out.

Sure it would be nice if we would magically deprogram everyone who starts posting here. I am just grateful that Denise posts are well written and make sense, and she is nice.
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 11:12:48 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: That's pretty patronizing
Message:
Sure it would be nice if we would magically deprogram everyone who starts posting here. I am just grateful that Denise posts are well written and make sense, and she is nice.

And I'm relieved she doesn't drool.
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 11:14:46 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: That's pretty patronizing
Message:
Why is it partonizing? I was comparing her writing to the idiots who have been around here lately, they almost made me get off forum. So I don't see it as though I was trying to court her or anything.
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 11:24:40 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: and furthermore
Message:
It was patronizing to start this whole thread, I think, who are you her new savior?
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 21:16:06 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Yeah, Selene!
Message:
You go girl!
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 21:18:47 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Yes, Selene, and so are you
Message:
It was patronizing to start this whole thread, I think, who are you her new savior?

It's a little overblown and has ironically religious overtones but, yeah, I guess that'll do.
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 11:27:18 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: It's patronizing because..
Message:
you're 'damning her with feignt praise' (did I get it right this time, Joe?). 'Who cares if she can't think clearly enough to see through Maharaji? At least she expresses herself neatly.' If I were Denise I'd be thinking 'thanks but no thanks'.

Selene, it's not as if I don't get what you're saying. Denise does indeed communicate better than most of the premies who've come here (although no better than Mel or op, I'd say). But that part's easy. In the end what matters is content, no?
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 11:26:16 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: That's pretty patronizing
Message:
It sure is patronizing. I also don't see the virtue in not telling people what to think. There are so many examples where it is proper to do so, in fact, it's the only moral choice. For example, I think it's right to tell someone how to think about racism if he or she holds racist views. What's the dif here? Fucked up is fucked up.

Maybe I just don't get it. We all seem to know beyond any doubt that M's trip is harmful. Why not keep hammering away at it? Is this site here just to convince ourselves?

Premies come here for many reasons, I guess. But I like to speculate that somewhere, deep down within inside themselves there is that small voice of doubt which knows the truth and wants to be convinced. If we adopt the attitude that Dave and Brian and I guess Helen are espousing, then I'd say it's time to join a chat club.

No, I'm with Jim all the way on this one.
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 11:31:32 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: That's pretty patronizing
Message:
OK if I can't win this argument then I quit forum - sound familiar
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
You got your day in court Jim. Congrats.
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 21:20:23 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: The truth you feel inside...
Message:
isn't subject to a popular vote, peer pressure, insults, etc.
It's becoming obvious that this is true for both premies and ex-premies alike. WOW! WE HAVE SOMETHING IN COMMON!

Hey, Selene, hope you're doin' OK whatever your gooroo status is.
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 21:25:25 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: isn't 'truth'
Message:
Shp,

You new-age goofball, the word 'truth' is an english word that has a real live meaning. Look it up sometime.
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 21:38:49 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim's method of branding...
Message:
'....another SHP'. (Makes it sound like SHP stands for Shit House Premie, but it really means Shit Heller's Pants)

You use subliminal negative-figuregrounding bullshit, Jim.
You are a lawyer and you can word-dance circles around most people here on all sides of the issue, and you can also be intimidating.
But then again, you do that for a LIVING! SHP don't play that anymore.

My open post to Denise must have struck a chord in you, but I am not flattered by your attention.
I was open and honest with her and did not badmouth you or any other premie or ex-premie. I gave you all the respect for having the right to your feelings and beliefs. That's my style and you are not going to turn me around or drag me down to your behavior.
Amazing what a little honest expression brings out, I got a whole thread in my name! Not flattered, though.

Jim, I wish you all the best.
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 22:24:40 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: 15 yards for piling on, sheep.
Message:
People have said some pretty strong things to Jim today, sheep, but this one takes the cake. How dare you, and how low can you go?

You use subliminal negative-figuregrounding bullshit...

Now THAT'S a low blow, SHP, which leads me to believe SHP really means Super Horrible Poop. Hang your head, boy, hang your head.

PS What the fuck does your latest new age babble phrase mean (in your experience) ?
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 22:45:26 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: let's go to the videotape
Message:
Gerry,
Check out the title of this thread.
Does slander ring a bell? How about character assasination?
Why? Because I don't agree with your summary judgement about Maharaji.
Experience is what happens to you, what you go through. It's a very old word, not new age at all. Gerry, stand on your on feet.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 12:20:40 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: I'm on my knees,
Message:
begging you, please...

Tell me what this means or else I'll think you're just making it up: subliminal negative-figuregrounding bullshit
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Date: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 18:40:51 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: what it means
Message:
Gerry,

Subliminal (subconscious) negative figuregrounding (trying to nail someone to an unfavorable image or vibe, with no room or chance for growth or change)....referring to his use of my initials in the thread title. Like becoming another SHP is baaaaaaaaaad......oooooooooooo! Get it, friend? I thought it was pretty obvious myself.

I understand that what ever pain Jim feels he is blaming on Maharaji and transferring it angrily to anyone who is in any way connected with him, since Maharaji isn't dealing with Jim directly. I understand him just fine. But there are many other exers here who I can communicate with and not have the same problem. Some say he's a brilliant logician. Great. Except for one thing. There is at least one issue that defies logic: Life itself.

Those moments in my life that I consider to be the most intensely beautiful, I have found that it was first necessary to turn off all my switches (or as many as possible) except the one that is labelled: Behold. Knowledge has allowed me to do just that at will more and more. I really find that to be the most wonderful and fulfilling experience in my life. I am learning to be quieter and receive more, not transmit so much. That's the opposite of the world, which is on max volume and pumping megabass besides. And it is the Knowledge that is guidng me to this place, not a person. Maharaji guided me to Knowledge and Knowledge is guiding me to a more and more peaceful experience of life, inside and out.
In the Coptic gospel of Thomas (he was like the George Harrison of the Apostles...he travelled around - Egypt and India methinks -) and in his gospel he quotes Jesus as saying that Heaven (Greek word for truth) comes when the inner and the outer become one. If we can get past the 'religious' reference, I think we'd all agree that we feel best when our words, thoughts and actions are all in accord with each other, wouldn't you agree?

I have no quarrel with anyone here. I'm not here to 'convert' anyone. I came here on a 'wrong turn' off the info superhiway, had questions come up inside me from what I read, got messed with, messed with back, and had some good dialogs too, and woke up one day with a sense of where I am at inside. And I don't share your summary judgement of Maharaji, despite all the stories, all of which can be presented in more than one light. That does not mean that I agree with your interpretation or would condone it. So now do I insult you all for not seeing it my way?
No, I sincerely wish each of you all the best. This is where I am at now.

Who knows what tomorrow will bring? I hope tomorrow brings more of what we all need to live happy and fulfilled lives, each in his or her own unique way.

Seems that Jim does his number, then hangs back and many others come forth to defend, interpret, massage and otherwise represent what Jim said. You are one of those people. That's what I meant when I said to stand on your own feet. It comes off like you and others at times are his paralegals and he's the Man. I have observed this phenomenon as long as I have been around here. That is what I meant. If that's how you feel, fine. I am just surprised that you can't see his pattern:

1) civil intro
2) hard sell about Maharaji
3) challenge positions
4) present his anti-M case with some examples
5) demand acceptance of reality as he sees it
6) trash any who do not go along at his pace with
heavy bad vibes, demeaning and degrading remarks and
innuendos
7) sit back and let his 'paralegals' rep him
8) pop in for his brand of humor, usually at
someone's else's expense (usually a premie, but
sometime he'll go after an exer to keep them in line.)

This is just a little part of a download of my experience here with reference to your question to me. Is that clear enough?
I am not saying that you are wrong or right. No judgement, just feedback.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 18:55:48 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: Summary judgement?
Message:
And I don't share your summary judgement of Maharaji, despite all the stories, all of which can be presented in more than one light. That does not mean that I agree with your interpretation or would condone it. So now do I insult you all for not seeing it my way?

Shp,

Your use of the term 'summary judgement' is pretty funny. Do you know what the word means? Why do you use it? Does it just kind of sound good? What's 'summary' about my or anyone else's judgement of m? What more thorough judgement would you prefer?

Beside that, Shp, your role here should make you act differently. I mean, what do you have to get frustrated about? You're the one without the common sense or integrity to call a spade a spade. Hell, fella, you could do what you do in your sleep....

'What's that you say m did [or said, or bought, or fucked]? Hell I'll look at that in my own way, thank you very much. Oh yeah, like I used to say when I was pretending to be acutally considering all this negative information about Maharaji, it's really making me think.'

Really, shp, why would that frustrate you at all? It might -- and often does -- frustrate anyone trying to reason with you but that's their problem, isn't it?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 19:33:50 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: reply to Jim
Message:
Sir:

With regard to the above post:

SHP: And I don't share your summary judgement of Maharaji, despite all the stories, all of which can be presented in more than one light. That does not mean that I agree with your interpretation or
would condone it. So now do I insult you all for not seeing it my way?

JH: Shp, Your use of the term 'summary judgement' is pretty funny. Do you know what the word means? Why do you use it? Does it just kind of sound good? What's 'summary' about my or anyone else's judgement of m? What more thorough judgement would you prefer?

SHP: That's how it came out, you know what I meant, and yet you play in the epistemological dirt. (=meanings of words, for those reading who didn't know). I have heard it before as a legal term. How's this: I don't agree with your read on Maharaji. Clear?

JH: Beside that, Shp, your role here should make you act differently. I mean, what do you have to get frustrated about? You're the one without the common sense or integrity to call a spade a spade. Hell, fella, you could do what you do in your sleep....

SHP: The terms 'your role', 'act', 'spade' require clarification for further dialog.

JH: 'What's that you say m did [or said, or bought, or fucked]? Hell I'll look at that in my own way, thank you very much. Oh yeah, like I used to say when I was pretending to be acutally considering all this negative information about Maharaji, it's really making me think.'

SHP: The act of thinking is not inherently 'good' or 'bad', as I am sure you are well aware. As St. Paul said, nothing is good or evil in itself, but for how human beings use it. Somebody thought up a piano and somebody else thought up an oven for humans.

JH: Really, shp, why would that frustrate you at all? It might -- and often does -- frustrate anyone trying to reason with you but that's their problem, isn't it?

SHP: I'm not frustrated and I don't wish it on anyone, including you. Maybe if you are frustrated, you are experiencing your own backwash from some of your unconscious words, thoughts or actions.
Happens to the best of us. Once again, all the best.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 19:04:22 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: good grief, man
Message:
I got the 'negative' part. What was so subliminal about it? I thought his post title was pretty straight forward. '' Is Denise gonna turn into a turd like shp?'' Personally, I don't think she will. You're in a class by yourself.

Man, you really put Jim on a pedestal. Pretty funny how you seem to think you know what's going on in his head. Does K do that for you?

You have a real knack for categorization. I never was too good at seeing pattern. Unless I dosed. Then I saw all sorts of patterns, colors too.

Thanks for elucidating the ''Jim Formula'' for me sheep. I hope he rips you a new asshole, then I get to do cleanup with a few cheap jabs and trick or two I learned from you.

I think we'd all agree that we feel best when our words, thoughts and actions are all in accord with each other, wouldn't you agree?

This is called being congruent. Are you congruent, shppy? You seem like you're all over the place to me. Jim seems quite congruent compared to you.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 19:35:55 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: In the words of Carly
Message:
Simon, I just haven't got time for the pain.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 20:24:36 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: You're a tricky guy.
Message:
You haven't got time for the pain, huh. Ok, so I called you a turd. That's an insult. A good, clean insult. Or at least an 'upfront' insult. In contrast, you say this:

Seems that Jim does his number, then hangs back and many others come forth to defend, interpret, massage and otherwise represent what Jim said. You are one of those people. That's what I meant when I said to stand on your own feet. It comes off like you and others at times are his paralegals and he's the Man.

Now that doesn't sound like an insult, does it? No, just a little advice, and maybe an opinion from ole sheepy, based on his 'observations.' But you see sheep, it is an insult and you know it. But you disguise your insults and couch them in butchered scriptual quotes and psuedo-advice. Is that what they mean by passive-aggresive?

Oh yes, yours is a life of great beauty, more and more. I can tell that from your words. But things don't quite add up with you, shp. It's that congruity problem.

You say I don't 'stand on my own feet.'' What the fuck? You're the one with the guru, pal. I just happen to agree with a lot of what Jim says and I like his style. That's all. You on the other hand are a toe sucking, idol worshipping, full fledged cult member. Are YOU standing one your own feet? Don't make me laugh!!
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Date: Fri, Mar 05, 1999 at 08:07:14 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: tricks are for kids, ger
Message:
No insult intended. Just called it like I saw it. Have a little humility in the privacy of your own home, be as brash with me out here as you need to to feel good about yourself, but take a look.

I chose a teacher while standing on my own feet, consciously.
Very congruent flow of events.
No offense taken here. Have a great day.
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Date: Fri, Mar 05, 1999 at 12:40:17 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: tricks are for kids, ger
Message:
Sandy,

Sometimes I wonder if perhaps your mind is a bit unhinged. Really. Maybe your posts make sense to you, but they are often obtuse and a bit undecipherable to me. I assume your intentions are to communicate. You're not very clear. I really think you've stuffed your head so full of bullshit it prevents you from thinking straight.

No insult intended. Just called it like I saw it. Have a little humility in the privacy of your own home, be as brash with me out here as you need to to feel good about yourself, but take a look.

Have a little humility in the privacy of my home? Huh? Is this supposed to mean something? I need to feel good about myself? Yeah, ok, so? Take a look at WHAT?

I chose a teacher while standing on my own feet, consciously.

No you didn't. You were subtley indoctrinated and seduced into a cult. I was there, remember?

Very congruent flow of events.

No offense, but you are one of the more disjointed and confused people I met here. I had to stop reading your post for a long time, you were so scrambled.

No offense taken here. Have a great day.

Yes thank you. I'm off to the Seattle Home Show at the Kingdome. Happy new breath to you.
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Date: Fri, Mar 05, 1999 at 18:41:17 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Ger, you fearful predator you
Message:
I'm not so much of a hunter-gatherer anymore, as I am more a planter-householder now. I don't want to be feared or prey on anybody or anything anymore.

I think evolution and grace have provided me with alternatives
to the primitive....however in a survival situation, I would do whatever necessary.

I understand how calling you hyena-like could sound offensive to you...it's really not a stretch. But I was just feeling your energy through cybersapce, and that's what it felt like. I really wasn't even trying to put you down or anything of the like.

Ger: Sometimes I wonder if perhaps your mind is a bit unhinged. Really. Maybe your posts make sense to you, but they are often obtuse and a bit undecipherable to me. I assume your intentions are to communicate. You're not very clear. I really think you've stuffed your head so full of bullshit it prevents you from thinking straight.

SHP: If you are not specific, it's easy to say what you said above. Maybe you need to focus, concentrate and slow down when you read. Maybe you'll get the message.

SHP: No insult intended. Just called it like I saw it. Have a little humility in the privacy of your own home, be as brash with me out here as you need to to feel good about yourself, but take a look.

Ger: Have a little humility in the privacy of my home? Huh? Is this supposed to mean something? I need to feel good about myself? Yeah, ok, so? Take a look at WHAT?

SHP: Take a look at the whole thing we are doing on this thread.
It seems that you are propping up a facade here and you are behind it. It just feels that way. People who come out a little and talk to me straight across seem to get smacked by the ex-premie thought police (mainly Counselor Heller, esq.)

SHP: I chose a teacher while standing on my own feet, consciously.

Ger: No you didn't. You were subtley indoctrinated and seduced into a cult. I was there, remember?

SHP: Maybe you were. I don't think I was.
Very congruent flow of events.

Ger: No offense, but you are one of the more disjointed and confused people I met here. I had to stop reading your post for a long time, you were so scrambled.

SHP: Once again, you gotta be specific form me to address the issue. You are pointing at the horizon with trees, mountains, birds, sunset, etc, and saying 'look at that', and I am saying
'tell me what the hell are you pointing at, and I'll take a look!'
Ger: Yes thank you. I'm off to the Seattle Home Show at the Kingdome. Happy new breath to you.

SHP: What's your reason for going to the Home Show?
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Date: Fri, Mar 05, 1999 at 12:48:27 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: Wrong shp... definitely wrong
Message:
shp: NONE of us chose M based upon ANY position of supposed strength (e.g. 'standing' on our own two feet). We were weak when we went looking; thinking that 'we' couldn't possibly get it right without a guru. Thinking that we couldn't possibly live a decent, fulfilling life without some 'external' force helping us at every turn. Thinking that we 'mere' humans weren't capable of anything 'good' without MAJOR deeeeevine help.

Don't give me any talk about 'strength' until you own up to these and then determine to 'do it yourself!'
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Date: Fri, Mar 05, 1999 at 20:57:46 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: strong mike..definitely strong
Message:
Hey Mike,

Here we go:

Mike: NONE of us chose M based upon ANY position of supposed strength (e.g. 'standing' on our own two feet). We were weak when we went looking; thinking that 'we' couldn't possibly get it right
without a guru. Thinking that we couldn't possibly live a decent, fulfilling life without some 'external' force helping us at every turn. Thinking that we 'mere' humans weren't capable of anything 'good' without MAJOR deeeeevine help.

SHP: Yes, we were weak, but in our weakness and humility, we attracted the power we were seeking. Lightning rods have alot of humility just standing there in the storm and they can conduct great amounts of power without being destroyed. That's what I meant by having strength. We wanted in to the big secret of inner fulfillment and we got it, nothwithstanding your gripes with the teacher. As for 'getting it right, I had it right up to the point
I was at, and then I discovered there was more. So I went for it.
I remember Maharaji saying that there were a few people who got there without a physical master present, but most go with a teacher. He also said he's not everybody's Guru Maharaji. This is not a defense, it's just stuff I remember that balances the books a little.

Mike: Don't give me any talk about 'strength' until you own up to these and then determine to 'do it yourself!'

SHP: I have a respiratory ailment and sometimes it's hard just to breathe. I have passed out from coughing real hard and trying to catch my breath at the same time. It comes and goes, usually worse in the cold wet months. I don't take anything for granted anymore and I realize firsthand, not from what you may call 'syrupy cliche satsang', how precious my breath is to me...it ain't a theory for me, it's very, very real. I guess that makes me appreciate it all the more. I can't do anything myself, not even breathe, without help. I know that recognizing this makes me very strong, not weak, for in giving recognition to my Maker, I get to channel some of the power, as long as I don't abuse it.
I see Maharaji as someone who helped me by showing me a way to tap into the infinite source inside and have a tactile experience of its presence within me. Undeniable. I am not on high all the time, but I have had enough to know where it is coming from and who helped me realize it.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 20:15:51 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: second reading feedback
Message:
G-man:

Ger: I got the 'negative' part. What was so subliminal about it? I thought his post title was pretty straight forward. '' Is Denise gonna turn into a turd like shp?'' Personally, I don't think she will. You're in a class by yourself.

SHP: Your above post was very straightforward. You placed the value of 'turd' on me. That was upfront.

Ger: Man, you really put Jim on a pedestal. Pretty funny how you seem to think you know what's going on in his head. Does K do that for you?

SHP: Pedestal, no...scrutiny, yes. No it's not K, I have been a pretty good reader of people since childhood. It's a gift. Being a turd, I can smell bullshit a mile away.

Ger: You have a real knack for categorization. I never was too good at seeing pattern. Unless I dosed. Then I saw all sorts of patterns, colors too.

SHP: Alas, the art of clear observation is an endangered human trait around here, and is fear and loathed and called nasty names like categorization. Opinions cloud clear vision.

Ger: Thanks for elucidating the ''Jim Formula'' for me sheep. I hope he rips you a new asshole, then I get to do cleanup with a few cheap jabs and trick or two I learned from you.

SHP: Then 'you get to do cleanup' for Jim. That's exactly the relationship I was trying to describe before...you 'get to' do something to clean up Jim's hackjob. Like if you were animals, YOU make him the lion and you the hyena. If you think I need a new sphincter, why don't you do it yourself? Why wait for someone else? Are you the archetypal sidekick? Thanks for providing an example of what I was trying to convey. (And all the while you and I are doing this, he sits back and strategizes as if he's in court, and we are the sideshow, but when HE posts, its the main event.)

I do not choose to live in the world of Jim's or anyone else's effects. I choose to live in the world of cause. I choose to act upon my own impulses, not react to someone else's. Knowledge leads to self-mastery, not mastery over others, and that is where I am heading. I wish you all the best.

SHP: I think we'd all agree that we feel best when our words, thoughts and actions are all in accord with each other, wouldn't you agree?

Ger: This is called being congruent. Are you congruent, shppy? You seem like you're all over the place to me. Jim seems quite congruent compared to you.

SHP: It's called alot of things, but what it's called isn't important, even though it was called Heaven by Thomas before it was called congruent....more epistemology. I read somewhere that epistemology is one of the last traps the mind can get caught up in before finally letting go to make the leap of faith.

I see what looks like people having pissing contests with Niagara Falls trying to apply sheer brainpower to encompass, rationalize and understand the designer of the brain and the rest of the universe as well, and I don't mean Prem Rawat. He's the messenger. Have fun.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 20:42:22 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: shp's passing in the night
Message:
Hey shippy,

Looks like we were writing and posting at the same time.

SHP: Your above post was very straightforward. You placed the value of 'turd' on me. That was upfront.

Yeah, upfront, the very word I used. Hey maybe we're soul mates and just don't know it!

But no, you're too much of a dull boy:

Ger: Thanks for elucidating the ''Jim Formula'' for me sheep. I hope he rips you a new asshole, then I get to do cleanup with a few cheap jabs and trick or two I learned from you.

When I said this, I was sarcastically anticipating your attitude and indeed your response proved ME correct:

SHP: Then 'you get to do cleanup' for Jim. That's exactly the relationship I was trying to describe before...you 'get to' do something to clean up Jim's hackjob. Like if you were animals, YOU make him the lion and you the hyena. If you think I need a new sphincter, why don't you do it yourself? Why wait for someone else? Are you the archetypal sidekick? Thanks for providing an example of what I was trying to convey. (And all the while you and I are doing this, he sits back and strategizes as if he's in court, and we are the sideshow, but when HE posts, its the main event.)

Hyena, huh? Actually they are one tough motherfucker of a predator, shp, one of the most feared animals in the world. I think I like it. I think I did rip you pretty good in the above post.

You say you don't put Jim on a pedestal, shppy, but when you say his posts are the ''main event,'' you reveal yourself.

No comment on the remainder of your post, it was just bluster and blather and bullshit.
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Date: Fri, Mar 05, 1999 at 08:14:00 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: unlock yer horns
Message:
You are itching for a fight and you won't get one here.
I'm done with fighting with other people. I just express how I feel, observing the vibe here and who's who to each other. I observe your relationships as exers and notice the games, just like you do with premies. Can't you take the same scrutiny you dish out? You aren't copping to the truth about what I said about Jim, and you are trying to tag me with it because I said it out loud. No cigar.

Actually, I really want to relate to people as people, not as ex-this or that or premie this or that, but you have me so locked into the 'premie' box, perhaps we'll never sort it out. Oh well.
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Date: Fri, Mar 05, 1999 at 13:00:24 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: shp, what happened to you?
Message:
shp: You said,

'I do not choose to live in the world of Jim's or anyone else's effects' and 'Knowledge leads to self-mastery, not mastery over others, and that is where I am heading.'

Wrong on both counts. You choose to live in gooroo's world (HIS, not yours) and K has absolutely NOTHING to do with 'self' mastery; it has to do with 'escape' from reality.... THIS reality... the only REAL REALITY. Oh yeah, it has alot to do with 'self-absorbtion,' too!
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Date: Fri, Mar 05, 1999 at 21:01:46 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Mike, life happened to me.
Message:
Mike:

Here we go again:

SHP: 'I do not choose to live in the world of Jim's or anyone else's effects' and 'Knowledge leads to self-mastery, not mastery over others, and that is where I am heading.'

Mike: Wrong on both counts. You choose to live in gooroo's world (HIS, not yours) and K has absolutely NOTHING to do with 'self' mastery; it has to do with 'escape' from reality.... THIS reality... the only REAL REALITY. Oh yeah, it has alot to do with 'self-absorbtion,' too!

SHP: We obviously are holding different parts of the elephant.
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 22:47:04 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: Subliminal poo poo
Message:
You use subliminal negative-figuregrounding bullshit, Jim.

Sorry Shp, I missed that seminar. Must have been a good one, I'm sure.

You are a lawyer and you can word-dance circles around most people here on all sides of the issue, and you can also be intimidating.
But then again, you do that for a LIVING! SHP don't play that anymore.


May you get busted for impaired driving!

May your kid get charged with assaulting his girlfriend!

May you need to incorporate your future business!

May you need to protect your interests when your wife leaves you AND Maharaji!

My open post to Denise must have struck a chord in you, but I am not flattered by your attention.
I was open and honest with her and did not badmouth you or any other premie or ex-premie. I gave you all the respect for having the right to your feelings and beliefs. That's my style and you are not going to turn me around or drag me down to your behavior.


And that just about says it all, don't it?
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 23:05:00 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: poo poo patter
Message:
Sir:

In response to your most recent correspondence:

SHP: You use subliminal negative-figuregrounding bullshit, Jim.

JH: Sorry Shp, I missed that seminar. Must have been a good one, I'm sure.

SHP: Your above gambit has been called the Aztec two-step in some circles (no offense to the Aztecs). I was referring to your use of my name with your vile spin on it in your thread title. Duh....!? You can't press my buttons anymore.

SHP: You are a lawyer and you can word-dance circles around most people here on all sides of the issue, and you can also be intimidating. But then again, you do that for a LIVING! SHP don't play that anymore.

JH: May you get busted for impaired driving!
May your kid get charged with assaulting his girlfriend!
May you need to incorporate your future business!
May you need to protect your interests when your wife leaves you AND Maharaji!

SHP: May you have a wonderful life.

SHP: My open post to Denise must have struck a chord in you, but I am not flattered by your attention. I was open and honest with her and did not badmouth you or any other premie or ex-premie. I
gave you all the respect for having the right to your feelings and beliefs. That's my style and you are not going to turn me around or drag me down to your behavior.

JH: And that just about says it all, don't it?

SHP: That remains to be seen.
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 23:46:23 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: The truth you feel inside...
Message:
Well I do not succumb to peer pressure here. I really believe that. I have not been popular for some of the things I have said and am not one of those types that are 'greatly admired' by the more vocal here.

As to how I am doing. Thanks for asking. I feel like shit.
But you know what? I did when I was a premie too. Even when I was meditating regularly, following him around all over, etc.

And I feel great sometimes now. And I did then. So I don't thingk Maharaji is any factor in my well-being, or non well-being.
Not now anyway. Back then was a different story. Unlike you, I did succumb to a lot of peer pressure and believe me it was being doled out in kilos by the premies. You are lucky you don't have to go through that. Yet, even that was not enough to turn me away. It's only been 14 months SHP. I finally left because the premies were so mean. Really. I am different than a lot of people here for that reason, I think.
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 23:53:48 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: ps to SHP
Subject: my last msg.
Message:
Since I am going to the girl scout badge of honesty here
(gag) I should add that the reason Mean premies upset me so much was/is because the guru never did much for me. I was mostly bored by videos, didn't like the festivals/programs/events much becuase we were poor and I had to deal with kids.
So basically that sense of family and community kept me around. I was especially succeptable to it, coming from a family of mean abusive idiots. So, when that feeling began crumbling in the 90's (for me, earlier for some) I got out.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 00:52:17 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: The truth you feel inside...
Message:
Selene:

I can relate to how some premies treat each other...pretty much how all people treat each other...sometimes nice, sometimes shitty. Premies are a slice of humanity for sure. That's a pet peeve of mine too. But I came to Maharaji to learn something that he taught, specifically Knowledge, and I was not about to let some of my rowdy and rude fellow students distract me. I have tried to keep my eye on why I got involved in the first place. And at times it hasn't been easy.

I could tell you some stories, believe me. But to what avail?
To what good? The behavior of the mean premies does not nullify Maharaji or Knowledge for me.

What the hell, let me give you a few examples....I was on my hands and kness duct taping some wires to the carpet for an intro program, and some numbnut comes up and starts telling me how to do it, not that I was doing it wrong or anything. He was just being a jerk. My wife was setting up the chairs and some other numbnut comes up to her and starts giving her discourse on how to set up the chairs, as if she needed his guidance to set up some frigging chairs. I felt like taking those two wannabe shamans and banging their heads together! My wife and I have gone through two natural childbirths, nine combined years of homeschooling our sons, and many other life experiences that required quick-thinking, common sense and maturity to successfully accomplish. And those two geniuses came up to us (she's 45 and I'm 50) and started telling us how to 'gaff' (tape wires) and set up chairs. Jeeeezus! Another time, a premie just plain got nasty with me expressing his opinion on something I said in front of of a group of premies and an instructor after a local program and there was no closure. I went to the instructor and asked him to be a neutral party to resolve the matter. The instructor said 'it happens, let it go' and the premie never got straight with me. I personally believe in working problems out with folks who supposedly I have a strong tie with like Knowledge. For me, the energy was screwed up and hasn't been worked out to date. Yes, I think there is alot of dysfunction among premies, just like in the general population.

I have a theory: there is a parable in the Bible about how a king was planning a feast and he invited a bunch of people who didn't show up, so he sent his servants to the highways and byways and told them to bring anyone and everyone, good or bad, to the feast, for he wanted his table to be full. For me, that is the way I deal with the cross section of folks who have received Knowledge that I interface with. This is way beyond worldly logic or mortal understanding. Faith is required.

I don't invoke the Bible as a 'religious' hammer. It exists and I feel that there is reality in it. I know that some on this site think otherwise and they certainly have a right to their opinion.

I happen to subscribe to the notion that I am not my body, but rather a spiritual being. My human body I see as my 'wet suit'
for life on earth. So all the tests and logic and critical thinking that may be influential on the physical plane don't automatically apply to who I really am. I get the feeling from a very comforting place that there is much, much more than meets the human eye or intellect.

If you left because of 'mean premies' (oxymoron as I see it, but they do exist), I can understand. Are there other reasons or is that it?

There is a book written by a Saint Augustine. The first half of the book is pretty much him dishing dirt about all the screwed up brothers in his monestary......and then he has this inner revelation, and the second half of the book is all about all of his own shortcomings and forgiveness for his brothers. He had the experience of leaving judgement behind and working on himself.
He had been touched by Christ in spirit, which is what I believe we all seek regardless of how we express it or what words or personalities we associate with the process. It's what I seek.
Why? To be kind to assholes? Hell no. To free myself from my own flaws by forgiving the flaws of others as much as I am able.

So have a good night.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 01:00:06 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: The truth you feel inside...
Message:
Hi again SHP
I am awake still. Don't know if you are.
You asked if there was any other reason besides the meanies.
I had already mentioned that. I never did get that charge out of Maharaji. When he looked at me in darshan Ifelt intimidated and angry. Can't explain it. I am a fighter, a surviver. I could tell
you a zillion stories as to how I came to be that way but it's too exhausting. and who the fuck gives a shit anyway?

But it's true! I didn't like the way people fawned all over him, not because they did it but because I couldn't see any reason to do it.

You will never bring me back into the fold SHP, but I have no problem talking to you. The recent influx of nut hatches has made me appreciate most of the premies who post here.

except cd.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 01:06:47 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: The truth you feel inside...
Message:
Selene,

First, I want to tell you that I am not trying on any level to be a missionary here for you to come back to 'the fold'. I am just communicating with you and deriving some enjoyment from it. Hope
you are too.

Next, what do you mean by 'nut hatch'? I think I got it, but please explain further.

Yeah, I'm up too. Just heard it's almost a full moon. Lots of energy flying around tonight.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 15:00:46 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: The truth you feel inside...
Message:
well watch who you say that full moon stuff around! ha, just kidding but I remember when I said if I were going to be any religion it would be Wicca. I waited to the shit to hit the fan, amazing thing is it didn't!
My theory is those types think I am below communicating with most of the time anyway.

About 'The truth you feel inside...'
Here is my version of that. Be true. As straighforward and honest as you can, to yourself and others. Even if it's painful, try somehow to face it. Even if the best one can do is admit it to yourself and maybe one other person. There's a Concrete Blonde song I love called 'True' that explains it.

'They tell me how I should be
But i'll never let the monkeys make a mess of me
I do what I can and it's all I can do
But i'm true'

That's it SHP. I have lived too long and had too much happen to me to go for much more than that.

Thanks for talking to me last night. It helped.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 03:31:34 (EST)
From: Roger Drek
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Selene, you're the best!
Message:
Selene, baby!

In my business I've seen 'em all and you've got it. You're a winner in Roger Drek's book.

Ring me up next time you're in town and we'll do lunch at Woody Harrelon's Oxygen Bar. I'll treat you to some snorts of the O2 with a good old fashioned popper chaser. Can't beat it!

Ciao

Roger

here's a picture for you to see
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Date: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 12:56:33 (EST)
From: selene
Email: None
To: Roger Drek
Subject: Selene, you're the best!
Message:
where do you find this stuff??? :)

I'll take the oxygen, er any nitrous there? Absolut?
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 19:25:26 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: I refer the honourable member
Message:
to the reply I gave above titled, 'It's simple'. People have to make up their own minds and if they're anything like me, are stubborn and will resist coercion most forcefully.
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 19:42:13 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: I refer the honourable member
Message:
Dave,

I've sorta lost the gist of the discussion, but I do agree coercion is not the way. Nor is name-calling, ridicule, or sarcasm. As dear to my heart as those things are, I believe it's time we (I) develop a different strategy. The end result I would like to see is 1) Mirage doesn't gain any new followeres, and 2) he loses the ones he has .

Any suggestions?
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 20:06:03 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: I refer the honourable member
Message:
Any suggestions? Yes, I think someone should start a web site called, 'The truth about Maharaji' and get it listed on all the search engines more than Maraji's site. Also to counteract 'Maraji's web site', someone should have a spoof site called 'Maharaji's Homepage'. Perhaps someone will do it soon.

If there was also a site called ex-premie.org with an on line forum that would help too. There might be a lot of visitors to such a forum. I know this because every time I advertise a web site on such a forum, the hits to that web site go right up within a few minutes of my advert post being online.

Looking at the great hidden figures; of all the people who read this forum, only a tiny fraction of them ever post. We are speaking to a great mass of lurkers. I think people want to know as much as they can about this Maharaji trip. And we can fill in the blank spaces.
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 20:36:38 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: I refer the honourable member
Message:
Dave,

Funny. And I applaud you for your efforts. JM too. As well as Katie and Brian.

I was thinking more along the lines of how to talk to premies here on this forum so the end result is what I want. And I do forget sometimes that there are a whole lot more folks out there lurking.

Maybe a ''kinder, gentler'' gerry? The old saw about flies and honey comes to mind.
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 23:25:35 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: communcashun
Message:
Gerry, I've been asking myself the same questions today. After watching the Monica Lewinsky interview I now have the answer--Don't have sex with the President!
I really do want to know what is a more effective way to communicate with premies. Perhaps what Sir D was saying is that we should just continue the discussion here and maybe not get so sidetracked into trying to 'save' premies. After lurking here and participating if they feel like it, they can save themselves.

How did I turn into such a pit bull anyway
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Date: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 00:00:35 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Helen the Pit Bull
Subject: communcashun
Message:
How did you become a pit bull? Well first off I dont' see you that way, but I am glad you are seeing it. Taht's a good sign.

It's easy. I turned into 'Selana the Rabid Dog' for a while.
A name given to me by a premie. You know it happens because
we ARE angry over stuff that happened and we have a right to be. and most likely you were like me and
a) Didn't even know how angry you were and/or why
b) Didn't have anyone to talk to

Suddenly here's the forum! And the dam bursts.
grrrrlllll you can be angry.
And it's always good to consider different
points of view. I admire you for that.

So maybe it's your turn. Go scream at the moon or play obnoxious music real loud and dance around naked. We can make a Nighty episode about it.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 00:17:50 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: communcashun
Message:
Thanks Selene. I probably wasn't around for your rabid dog phase. You think you're a lot more difficult than you are. We women always feel guilty for getting angry

I really did/do have a lot of anger about the whole thing, mostly anger at myself that I could let those weirdo initiators and ashram guys make me feel so bad about myself for being smart (can you believe that). I don't even think I'm that smart, I just am strong-minded. I swear these two ashram guys would be at my DOOR every night with their guitars when I came home from work serenading me with Maharaji music. I should have called the police! And they would follow me around.(this was when I was an aspirant) I think they were fascinated by me because I just refused to buckle under to the pressure of giving over my brain. Maybe they were jealous. I don't know. I ended up giving over my brain anyway to Maharaji's little brain trust Their faces still haunt me (those two ashram guys and the initiators who all told me I was too intellectual). FUCK THEM ALL now I feel better
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Date: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 06:50:57 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: House of cards
Message:
Helen's correct in what she says below about not saving premies. I think Maharaji's trip is like a house of cards. You only have to pull away one card and the whole house comes tumbling down. Maharaji is the big chief, the figurehead and without him, the whole trip falls apart.

Much of the deal is based on Maharaji being the Lord or some sort of superior being. As soon as that myth is exploded, most people leave the trip completely. Since the whole thing is so wrapped up with Maharaji (and he's done this himself) then if Maharaji is exposed for what he is, there's very little incentive for anyone to follow him. There will be the die-hards like red heels/heart etc but the vast majority that are left would leave in droves.

There is a problem with Maharaji's cult programming which then lasts for ages afterwards but that does gradually disappear as the inner realisation comes of how much bullshit it was. In the past, people were afraid of Maharaji. Now we have gone a long way to eradicating that fear with defaming Maharaji web sites etc. I've made just about the most defaming web site there is but I haven't been struck down by a bolt of lightening. I haven't even received any hate mail (I'd let people know if I did) from premies or threats from Elan Vital.

We are not hateful, spiteful people. Also, Maharaji is not a lunatic. I'm sure he knows the score. He knows what he's doing and he understands our opposition although he's never going to admit to that because it would be admitting he's done something wrong. He knows his biggest mistake was posing as the Lord to a lot of sincere, young people. He would expect to get a backlash by now.

But in conclusion; the premies are all following HIM. By showing them what he's really about, we allow them to loosen their belief system in Maharaji. But it does hurt when the belief system is shattered and when mine was shattered it was akin to a nervous breakdown for a week or so.

Then is not the time for ex-premies to gloat but is the time for understanding and compassion. But a person has to know for themself that they have been conned by a fraud because no amount of arguing makes any difference. With me it didn't and I just became more entrenched in my belief.

Some premies carry on with Mahaharaji even after they have realised he's not the Lord because their cult programming takes over. But even they would eventually slip away from Maharaji's grasp as the realisation dawned that there is much more to life than trying to achieve an impossible nirvana from meditation/practise. But all of this will go on for years yet, I'm sure. And there will be plenty of opportunity for premie/ex-premie dialogue. I like the accasional skirmish with red heels/heart. I also wish that my old mentor, Glen Whittaker would get on this forum because I'd have a lot to say to him since he was mainly responsible for the Lord trip growing in the West. I don't think it's important to be over sensitive to such people but I do think it's not in our capability to directly change their belief system.
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 12:00:27 (EST)
From: Cult Member
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: I disagree with all this
Message:
Sir David, hats off to you.
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 02:35:05 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: 'can't cope, my last hope'
Message:
If people are having 'that experience', how real can 'that love' be if it dependent on acceptance of prempal as a master/messenger/god?
To Denise and others who are frightened of leaving, even though they know how deceptive and dishonest he has been, I would urge you to believe in your own selves. Your experiences ARE your own. Kick him out of your psyche. For most premies he is only an image who you see on screen or stage once in a while.

It reminds me of Jews I know who are atheists, BUT still won't eat a pork chop. They say the smell is disgusting etc....or 'I just can't do it'. My first pork chop was absolutely liberating. When I tasted it, my first thought was 'All these years I've been conned out of real enjoyment'.

I can assure you that 'leaving prempal' in no way alters any 'inner meditation' experiences. In fact I'd say that the quality of life improves, because you have reclaimed your life.

'Leaving you lotus feet, where would I go'.......I go straight home mate, put up my feet and REALLY smile the 'unsmiled smile'.

Love Jethro
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 04:31:39 (EST)
From: ex-mug
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: 'can't cope, my last hope'
Message:
right on Jethro, since I kicked out the imposter BM, my life has been richer and more fulfilled than ever - in every way -
if this is falling into a billion fragments then it's pretty cool.
Some premie lurkers might question my posting here, and parrot BM's pathetic line 'get a life'. Actually, I spend a few minutes a day here, and very much enjoy the company of fellow escapees.
A bit like reading the daily news whilst really enjoying life to the full. I always remember when you and I made St.Albans Cathedral vanish when we 'shared satsang' there - in retrospect that experience had nothing at all to do with BM, it was a heart-felt communication between two human beings.

all the best Jethro, love to Anna and Claire

(please keep me as ex-mug :)
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 07:21:36 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: ex-mug
Subject: 'can't cope, my last hope'
Message:
Dear ex-mug

I only just realised who you are.

'I always remember when you and I made St.Albans Cathedral vanish when we 'shared satsang' there - in retrospect that experience had nothing at all to do with BM, it was a heart-felt communication between two human beings.'
Yes we all have our own magic, prempal gambles on most people not believing in their own selves. People's low self esteem.
Ity was great 'serving the servants of the Lord' with you. :>)

BTW Anna became an ex some years before me, but she was very polite about it and I never noticed until I used to say critical things about him and she would more than agree :>)

I am sure she has a lot to contribute here at this site, she was one of the house mothers at the Woodside residence. I know she has lots to tell.

Much love to you and yours
Jethro
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 11:58:36 (EST)
From: Cult Member
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Will Denise be another SHP?
Message:
What does SHP stand for.?
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 12:13:12 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Cult Member
Subject: Will Denise be another SHP?
Message:
SHP is a premie who posts here frequently. Or did anyway.
I am obviously far too stupid to really know what Jim means, but I think the drift is that SHP would express feelings and concerns about M and the organization, but still stand my his/her 'premiedom'.

But then what do I know?
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 12:23:50 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Will Denise be another SHP?
Message:
Selene,

There's a huge different between being wrong and being stupid. You're very sharp, accomplished and talented. Consider all you know about computors and your writing talent.

Heck, smart as I am, (though no where close to ''Us'' and his 134 IQ) look how often I'm wrong. And I get hammered for it.

So quit bayin' at the moon and cool your hormones. :-)
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 13:00:26 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Will Denise be another SHP?
Message:

So quit bayin' at the moon and cool your hormones. :-)

Not a bad idea at all. I think I'll go for a long lunch.

And, just a friendly piece of advice. I am not one of them but a lot of women get upset when men blame their anger on that type of thing. Just a warning you may want to consider.
:)
I'll have a glass of wine for you too.
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 13:09:18 (EST)
From: Ophelia
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Simmering Hormones
Message:
Selene, could you have one for me while you're at it? I was curious as to how you might respond to Gerry's admonition. Remember what Marie von Ebner Eschenbach said: Fear not those who argue, but those who dodge.

Ophelia, the Artful Dodger
AKA, the Knife Thrower
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 17:33:43 (EST)
From: seleeeeeeeeeeen!!!!
Email: None
To: Ophelia
Subject: Simmering Hormones
Message:
Fear not those who argue, but those who dodge.

Thanks, that's a good one. I can't get mad at Gerry tho, he is so cute (never saw his picture) and anyway, I am a mess today.
Haven't thrown any real knives a few here maybe (sorry Jim)
oh well, I didn't have my wine for any of you sorry, went for a walk instead.

Take care my fellow soft porn peddler and favorite one night stand.
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 17:43:53 (EST)
From: Ophelia
Email: None
To: seleeeeeeeeeeen!!!!
Subject: Gerry
Message:
I can't get mad at Gerry tho, he is so cute (never saw his picture)

I understand. But every time I try to flirt with him, his wife calls him to dinner. She must be really psychic!
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 13:27:14 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Will Denise be another SHP?
Message:
And, just a friendly piece of advice. I am not one of them but a lot of women get upset when men blame their anger on that type of thing. Just a warning you may want to consider.
:)


I know you are not that type, and I also know some women are offended by that type of comment and I only brought it up because you mentioned it first. But thanks for the reminder. I'm on your side.
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 13:01:24 (EST)
From: Garth
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Will Denise be another SHP?
Message:
Are we telling people what to think or just advising them to actually use their intellect for a change (of course I'm referring to those who remain convinced the mind is the devil)? On top of that, if we are convinced M and his organization are an evil, attempting to convince others of that is not an attack on them. If they construe it as such, it's 'cause they have lost their personal identity in the group. If one's only response to a difference of opinion is 'don't tell me what to think', I have to conclude they are projecting their own intolerance of new ideas onto me, not upholding some grand 'principle'.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 15:41:44 (EST)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Jim and the debate about his
Message:
posts...

As I read this debate I find myself agreeing with people who seem to be disagreeing with eachother. But here is what I think.

This is reminding me of a kids baseball game. Once one of the moms complained because one of the pitchers was 'throwing too hard' 'they can't hit the ball' 'have him pitch it so they can hit it'....sometimes the fact that Jim is really a rather brilliant logician is used against him. He really is gifted at getting to the heart of an argument. He is gifted at pointing out exactly why what someone is saying just doesn't make sense. Sometimes, he is so gifted, that he really makes the person he is arguing with look bad. As an ex premie I really appreciate his arguments.

BUT...sometimes Jim pitches the ball, just as hard, and AT the batter. Jim, sometimes you do. An example, calling OP a bitch. Jim, you make your point better when you stay in the strike zone.

It seems in Jim's facetious responses to this complaint he is missing the point. I doubt there are many that want to just let premies get away with saying illogical stupid things. But aim the ball at the arguement not the premie himself. They are goona strike out as you gotta hell of a pitch. But keep it in the strike zone.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 15:46:09 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: g's mom
Subject: Jim and the debate about his
Message:
Thanks. That's what I said about trying to get to the core of a person vs. general pointing the way, well kind of like what I said.

Anyway the real good thing here is, YOU will be read and answered.
Why I care that I won't be is anothe mystery that I think I will stop caring about from now til nowhere.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 15:51:25 (EST)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: g's mom
Subject: more for Jim
Message:
okay...so I know that CD just said to you, 'hey, I am making first base into third base and it is third base because I feel and experience it to be third base'....and then another premie said ' I am not hitting the ball, that ball is a mangoe, and I do not care if you say the ball is not a mango I know it is a mango and my beilief IS JUST as valid as yours!'

I want to throw the ball at them too but you just can't!
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Date: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 16:13:35 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: g's mom
Subject: Pretty good....
Message:
G's mom: Between this and your prior post, I think you made a very good point. Well said, indeed (IMHO)!
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Date: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 17:22:29 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Mike/g's mom
Subject: Pretty good....
Message:
I agree. Great analogy, g's mom.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 17:22:51 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Yeah, I agree
Message:
Well, not with the 'brilliant logician' part so much. Frankly, I think we have to remember that premies' thinking is generally so atriciously fuzzy, any relative clarity looks pretty sharp. I spend my days hanging out with a community of lawyers and judges. All different personalities, as you can imagine. I think I'm respected as someone who's fairly smart but no smarter than most. We're all pretty logical because you couldn't last a moment in the law without a clear rational compass. But thanks anyway, G-mom (hey, ain't that easier to say? 'G-mom' instead of 'G's mom'? And, by the way, how do you 'pronounce' 'Chr' in your head? Don't people think about these things? I know, I know. I should have just complained to Katie but I thought I'd take a bold step here.)

This thing about throwing the ball AT people ....

I'm all for it myself. There does indeed come a time when good faith is out of the question. I called op a bitch because I find her duplicitous and disingenuous. I WANT her to know I don't respect her. I DON'T want to communicate with her on any other basis. I certainly don't want her to forget for a second that I've 'got her number' so to speak.

Premies posting here have no obligation to be honest, consistent, committed to the discussion or even identified. So they say shit and I call them on it -- and call them names too if I get frustrated enough. Does that hurt their feelings? Good! Maybe they'll smarten up a bit. If not, I get the cheap thrill of telling them what's on my mind. That's all.
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Date: Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 12:06:31 (EST)
From: ex-mug
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Rat Holes
Message:
I've just been thinking about the Kissimmee festival where BM
talked about us going back to our 'rat holes'.
Anyone care to comment on their interpretation of this regarding
context? It depressed me at the time, as I lived in the ashram,
and wondered if BM was calling the ashram a rat hole.
He was in a round-about way calling us all rats - nice guy...
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Date: Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 12:14:47 (EST)
From: ex-mug
Email: None
To: ex-mug
Subject: ps
Message:
just had another thought - maybe I didn't hear him correctly
and he said 'rawat' holes -
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Date: Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 13:04:45 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: ex-mug
Subject: I remember my rat hole
Message:
Yes, I remember that. It was depressing.

In fact, a few days later upon returning home to my rat hole I was so frustrated and depressed about my aimless and pointless life I hit myself on the head with my baragon and then tried to strangle myself with my meditation sheet (that would have been good reading in the coroner's report.) Not too worry, but I knew it wouldn't work. I also had an overwhelming urge to drive my car off the road.

Real healthy stuff giving up everything and keeping yourself behind the 8-ball all the time by heeding his advice and not going to college, not giving a hoot about career or the future and spending all your money every 3 or 4 months to travel to see him. Following his good advice will guarantee that you'll end up in a rat hole forever. But, I see that he is a successful private investor.

Also, that was around the time of the Jonestown suicide and I began to have my first real doubts about the sanity of the Maharaji trip.
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Date: Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 13:29:06 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: I remember my rat hole
Message:
Yeah, he was a helluva role model for all of us young people. That to me is the most depressing thing. When I think of the fact that I was in my 20's and listening to his 'advice' about how to find fulfillment in life. What a disgusting thought!
As if he knew a damned thing about it!

He who was crowned 'Lord of the Universe' at age 8 and has never had to lift a finger in his entire life except to point at someone and tell them to do it.

Well, live and learn. And to think the premies want us to keep quiet about what happened in the past. 'Let it go' 'Forgive' 'Go beyond that'. 'Don't be so negative'.

And M is still there posing as a spiritual master! And they want us to keep quiet about his history!

I guess if M were to retire and admit his mistakes I'd shut up. But certainly not until then.

Hear that ex-guru!?

Not until you admit you had no business advising anyone to dedicate their life to you, will we shut up, you understand?
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Date: Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 15:04:32 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Healing your inner rat
Message:
John your post and the one by barney and the one where GM said go back to your rat holes are making me cry. You know it is so therapeutic to see this in black and white, how wrong it was. How he was a spoiled brat saying he was the Lord yet never lifting a finger, how contemptuous he was and is of his premies.

God I am so glad I am free of this horrible cynical Guru forever, and I am so grateful that my life really means something to me now. Yes GRATEFUL, a word that has been made meaningless through its overuse as jargon, but a real feeling nevertheless.
Love you all
Helen
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Date: Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 22:54:31 (EST)
From: Crazed Moon Goddess
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: I remember my rat hole
Message:
Think I know how your felt that night Barney. How awful for you. Now the years have gone by and we are stronger, supposedly.
Sometimes I am not so sure about myself/

My husband just played this song on his guitar. I had to leave my tomb of depression to ask what is that?

He thought but wasn't sure that it was by 'The Church'

'Wish I knew what you were looking for
Might have known what you would find
And it's something quie peculiar
Something shimmering and white
That leaves us here
Despite our destination
Under the Milky Way Tonight'

Don't know why those lyrics haunt. Too many broken dreans, destroyed relationships. oh well...

Selene, not quite ok under the full moon tonight
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Date: Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 23:05:04 (EST)
From: Wolf Woman
Email: None
To: Crazed Moon Goddess
Subject: I remember my rat hole
Message:
HOWL like a wolf baby into the night
As long as you can howl it'll be alright
turn up the music scream scream scream
Next week you'll look back, & say
It was just a bad dream

Okay so it's not Byron, but it's the best I can do
Love
Helen
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 10:21:44 (EST)
From: Garth
Email: None
To: Wolf Woman/Helen
Subject: I remember my rat hole
Message:
I've gotten two impressions from this thread;

1. Some of you have an interest in Goddess worship - to that end, I would highly recommend the following site, one of the most beautiful I've ever seen - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/6252/index.html

and

2. Somebody mentioned creative abilities encouraged or discouraged - one test of a philosophy's relevance. I've recently become interested in Shamanism and, yes, it's as full of bull as most New Age movements. But there is a grain of truth amongst the chaff, if one searches diligently and shamanism depends on theatricality for its effectiveness. One might try the following site as a start;

http://tranceform.org/

Peace be ever on your trail, Wolfette.
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 10:44:53 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Garth
Subject: I remember my rat hole
Message:
Thanks Garth. If I believe in any ritualistic anything, it is some form of nature worship. Kind of my own combination I put together. It is one reason I chose Selene over Celine even though I like the way the other is spelled. Supposedly selene means moon and also moon goddess, somewhere. Not sure where though I couldn't find it in my Moon Almanac.
Yes it is lumped in with New Age but it isn't. It's as old as the hills, older than the Christianity and the others that destroyed it.
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 17:34:25 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Garth
Subject: Goddesses
Message:
Hi Garth
I have known a lot of goddess worshippers and have some shaman friends. Have been to a few rituals. I guess I'm a little wary of anything new age these days although I do communicate with pine trees and kiss dogs on the lips on a regular basis.

Thanks for sharing the website info
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Date: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 13:03:41 (EST)
From: Jerry Springer
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Helen and Lassie an item?
Message:
Helen, so you 'kiss dogs on the lips on a regular basis.' ??

Hey, come on my show and lets talk about it, I'll find some cute dogs to appear with you, and we'll just sit back and wait for the sparks to fly!
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Date: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 17:33:24 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jerry Springer
Subject: Helen and Lassie an item?
Message:
Hi Jerry,
And Lassie's a woman, too. So not only are we an item but we're having lesbian inter-species hanky panky! Just the thing for your show
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 10:58:11 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Wolf Woman
Subject: I remember my rat hole
Message:
Thanks. Hopefully I can do that. I have in the past! This one is bad, I dont' even want to talk, much less howl. But you are right this particular mix of hormones and moon will move on and I'll be my usual almost cheerful self again.
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 00:04:17 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Crazed Moon Goddess
Subject: the dark side of the moon
Message:
Selene,

At least I think that I can deal with my own shortcomings, frustrations, disappointments, and depressed moments a little better now than before, when I was under Maharaji's spell with such highs and such bottomless lows. Where the lows were all my fault for not surrending enough. And all that confusion.

with the moon shining so brightly
slip away in your red nighty
and climb the mountain high
now is not the time to cry
howl tonight with the coyote
and know that you are free

And if you're a good girl, one day I'll tell you of my night at La Paloma.
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 10:40:13 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: the dark side of the moon
Message:
And if you're a good girl, one day I'll tell you of my night at La Paloma.

Oh now that does sound intrigueing. (For others reading this, It's a Westin resort here in the hills outside the city very beautiful)

er... oh oh - that wasn't where that Mafia guy got killed in a car bomb a few years ago was it? [I think that was Ventana Canyon]
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Date: Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 13:12:02 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: ex-mug
Subject: The evolution of devotion
Message:
I remember that very clearly.

But, that's M parrotting what he learned from his Dad. His Dad made fun of the devotees, so he makes fun of the devotees. That's what a guru does. Mocks human activity and achievement. And the devotee bow down and kiss the guru's feet and thank him for his infinite kindness.

You have to remember though that at the time he said that, he had not yet evolved to his present state.

Hey, if he can evolve, I can evolve, right? So now I've evolved to my present state where I realize M is an ass hole.
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Date: Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 18:56:50 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: John
Subject: good one John
Message:
That is a very good nutshell John,
A -guru mocks human achievment and activity-
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 04:19:37 (EST)
From: ex-mug
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Talents
Message:
When I moved into the ashram, I had just left a very successful
rock band, and had the feeling that BM might just encourage my musical development, seeing as I'd just surrendered my life and talents to him lock, stock and barrel.
On the contrary, talents were called 'a trip' unless they were used in a (usually) commercial way in order to promote his propagation.
I could never understand why we weren't encouraged by BM to develop the talents that God had given us - now I think I comprehend - basically BM couldn't give a shit because he was only interested in his own wealth gathering.
Out of interest, is there anyone here who was encouraged to develop their talents whilst under the spell of BM?
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 10:50:53 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: ex-mug
Subject: Talents and barfing
Message:
Dear ex-mug

'Out of interest, is there anyone here who was encouraged to develop their talents whilst under the spell of BM?'

During most of my ashram years I worked as an analyst/programmer and always brought in a good salary. The only person who ever showed an ineterst was Mike Donner who encouraged me 'to keep on learning as much as possible'. ....and of course various house-fathers who wanted me to earn more.
Still I should have leaned something from Mike Donner......I understand that he did a bunk of sorts...enabling himself financially.

I remember living in the same ashram as you, where for alot of the time we supported everyone else because they were very important servants of the lord doing very important services....such as...eeeeer...making cushions for the holy family...eeeeer allowing the house father to regularly go to the cinema while idiots like you and me ran satsangs...and then of course there those 'special' PAMs......and the special security premies.
Excuse me I have to go and throw up now.

Jethro
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 15:05:51 (EST)
From: ex-mug
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Talents and barfing
Message:
Jethro,

Do you know if Jagdeo abused any children whilst he stayed at
the ashram we lived in?

ex-
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Date: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 06:18:55 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: ex-mug
Subject: Talents and barfing
Message:
Hi ex-mug (I just love that handle:>) )

'Do you know if Jagdeo abused any children whilst he stayed at
the ashram we lived in?'

I have no idea. I only found out about it over the last year. I read in AJW's journey how many people knew about it then, I am furious that I never knew about it. I am also angry at the many that did know about it and did nothing. It is more than Jagdeo that have to account for themselves.
Did you know that he(Jagdeo) told Anna that he was a reincarnation of a past perfect master?
This is the quality of prempal's representatives.

Jethro
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Date: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 10:20:49 (EST)
From: ex-mug
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Talents and barfing
Message:
Jethro,

What a strange, strange trip we were a part of...

Jagdeo was apparently a leading honcho in the communist party
of India (or something - that's what I heard anyhow),
and there was the story of how, when doing security at an Indian
program, he found some guy planting a bomb under BM's throne,
so J. beat the shit out of this guy with a big bamboo stick - :)
sounds like a devoted premie to me - LOL

ex-
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Date: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 12:03:57 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: ex-mug
Subject: to ex-mug
Message:
'What a strange, strange trip we were a part of...'

How true...still I met many people like yourself who I am pleased to have met. :>)

Much love

Jethro
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Date: Fri, Mar 05, 1999 at 06:00:12 (EST)
From: ex-mug
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: to ex-mug
Message:
likewise, Jethro :)
Let's meet up for a drink sometime

ex-
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Date: Fri, Mar 05, 1999 at 06:42:02 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: ex-mug
Subject: to ex-mug
Message:
'Let's meet up for a drink sometime'

Great idea, any time you like :>)

Love from JC

PS I still have the same phone number (and email) although I have moved since we last spoke.
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 12:03:51 (EST)
From: Cult Member
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Evolved
Message:
Kewl. And I have evolved to the point where I recognize that
what you say is what you are.
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 14:32:06 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Cult Member
Subject: You're very deep, but...
Message:
What the heck are you talking about?

'And I have evolved to the point where I recognize that what you say is what you are'

So, if I say I'm the superior power in person you belive me?
Of if I say 'tulip', I'm a tulip?

Care to elaborate?
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 18:59:14 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: John
Subject: John, I think he's playing
Message:
John: He's playing the game that's called, 'I know you are, but what am I?' How sweet.... ;-)
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Date: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 10:27:39 (EST)
From: Cult Member
Email: None
To: John
Subject: You're very deep, but...
Message:
Haha... Yeah, that line could easily be read as confusing. I mean to say, in kind of a take-off from you are what you eat, you are what you say -- i.e., you spend a lot of your time calling other people assholes, jerks and idiots, guess what you are being?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 12:39:34 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Cult Member
Subject: More deep thoughts
Message:
C'mon! You just can't believe that!

So, if I analyze Hitler's behavior, and conclude that he was an ass hole, really I'm just calling myself an ass hole?

Or if I look at my ex-guru's behavior while I was in the ashram and conclude 'whatever' - that he didn't really care, that he took on more than he could handle, that he was only interested in getting a plane built, that he was obsessed with being worshipped - whatever it is I conclude doesn't really matter, because conclusions actually apply to me, right? According to your thinking, whatever I say about someone else really applies to me.
That is utter idiocy! It seems to me that only a cult member determined to worship their Master could come up with that line of reasoning!

Is M capable of making a mistake?
Or, even better, is M capable of being an ass hole?

thanks for this opportunity to discuss this with you.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 13:21:24 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: John
Subject: More deep thoughts
Message:
John: Whatever premies think and say just doesn't amaze me anymore. It used to, but not anymore. Rationalization and justification (now matter how remote) takes on many forms, no?

Now, I find it intriguing to see if any premie comes up with something new (that we haven't heard here before). So far, it's all been pretty repetitive, don't you think?

As to the 'you are what you say/eat/whatever:' I guess if that's true, then vegetarians are turning themselves into blooming vegetables, right???? he he he. :-)
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Date: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 14:15:18 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: More deep thoughts
Message:
Yeah, I'm an idiot for even engaging Cult Member in conversation.
There is no reasonable logical line of defense for M.

What one has to do as a cult member is simply say, 'look I belive in this guy no matter what happens. I realize there's plenty of evidence to the contrary but, hey, I don't care. My gut instinct tells me to stay with him. And, I feel good when I listen to him speak. so, that's what I'm going with.'

I mean, in a way, I did not use logic when I left him. My gut instinct told me there was something rotten at the core of his organization, and that he was the source of that rotten smell.

I stopped trusting him, and I stopped enjoying darshan. I stopped enjoying his repetitive and simplistic explanations of how to find fulfillment and peace in life. It was my 'experience' that made me leave.
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Date: Fri, Mar 05, 1999 at 07:03:11 (EST)
From: Diz
Email: None
To: John
Subject: some more thoughts - ?deep
Message:
'...it was my experience which made me leave.'

I can relate to this. For me it was feeling first, then a long journey to try to figure out WHY I felt so weird about MJ's trip.

In fact, MJ feeds premies a bunch of interpretations which can be used to rationalise any 'negative' thoughts OR feelings they might have. Like - if you see something you don't like, then the problem you're seeing is in you, not in him (the mirror theory). Or, material possessions are not important, so it doesn't matter how many of them MJ has, he's not attached to them. Or, the only thing that matters in life is 'that experience', so there's no need to consider issues to do with the behaviour of MJ/his organistion, or their consequences.

I've been surprised to see how ofen premies parrot those lines. Not all, but many. I guess the years of Mj-only satsang, through all those videos, night after night, have had their effect.

Just glad it ain't me any more. I left a couple of years before this web-site existed, and I was very deeply indoctrinated. So I had huge internal struggles: mostly it was the voice of MJ and premies (which was replicated inside me) versus just me (the bit with the doubts, the bit which felt things weren't right, the bit which wanted to get clear).

There's still remnants of that battle. Don't think I'll ever see MJ's trip as all black, there were many good times and meditation was (sometimes is) very beautiful. I think my peace will come in holding the tension between the good and the bad - even that is very simplistic. It's not that I'm on the fence - I'm DEFINITELY ex - but I don't want to bolster my decision with arguments or 'facts' that aren't solid. NOr do I want to deny what I experienced with MJ - which included some absolutely dreadful stuff, and also some good times.

Diz
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Date: Fri, Mar 05, 1999 at 12:28:58 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Diz
Subject: beautiful, Diz-(nt)
Message:
right on!
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 11:27:13 (EST)
From: Ophelia
Email: None
To: ex-mug
Subject: I Remember My Rathole...
Message:
but I don't remember the satsang. I think Selene and I must've been off having espresso and cookies during that one. But if it was the Kissimmee Festival right around the time of the Jonestown mass suicide, I remember the rathole in which I lived. We had 2-inch red cockroaches with wings, scores of mice, and thieves and drug dealers for neighbors, but it was the only abode my husband and I could afford at the time because we kept having to use our rent money to get to festivals. I remember being so afraid to sleep in the bedroom that I would sit on the couch and meditate for hours at night.

Seems to me I only recently crawled *out* of the rathole when I recognized the truth about Maharaji.
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 11:34:37 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Ophelia
Subject: I Remember My Rathole...
Message:
Yeah, the flying cockroaches of the southwest. Yikes! I'll never forget the first time I saw one.

In our rat hole we slept on a piece of foam on the floor and they crawled on me and woke me up a few times. They have theses spiky things on their legs.
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 13:00:03 (EST)
From: Ophelia
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: I Remember My Rat hole...
Message:
yes, and when they crawled on me, I would reorganize my thinking so that I considered them to be a manifestion of the love that Maharaji had for me. Sort of like that story where the guru manifests as a bug or some damn thing. And only the true devotee recognizes...

I think I just grossed myself out. Not because of the bug, but because of the depth of the bullshit I accepted as doctrine. It just occurred to me that even recently I was grateful to Maharaji for showing me a method to escape a really harsh reality for 20 years. But, if I hadn't fallen into his cult, I might have dealt with the issues that caused me to make such poor choices much sooner and not spent a year in that rat hole. But if I wasn't so fucked up in the first place, I probably wouldn't have fallen for the cult. Hmmm, sort of a Catch-22. I feel like I'm waking up from a nightmare.
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 23:53:51 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Ophelia
Subject: I Remember My Rat hole...
Message:
But on the other hand...but on the other hand....I go through that thinking too. It makes me crazy!! Where would I be now if I never heard about the Guru?--I probably would have fallen in with an even worse Guru. Oy! I just HAD to have that experience.

Those bugs--horrible. Horrible. You'll have to include something about the bugs being divine manifestations in the CORN
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 15:10:01 (EST)
From: ex-mug
Email: None
To: Ophelia
Subject: I Remember My Rathole...
Message:
Dear Ophelia

It hurts me to here about your living conditions of that time -
isn't it great to be free of the fat bastard?

ex-mug
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 16:31:39 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: ex-mug
Subject: I Remember My Rathole...
Message:
Well this is a new one! I wish I could say differently but I do have to say that my rat hole conditions were due to neglect and abuse as a child, therefore repeating the pattern by moving across the country and having 2 kids with an abusive man who thought he was cool and and didn't seem to think 2 young babies was need enough to stay employed all that much.

I bought my situation all by myself. Now it's continuing on for far too long, that I can and do blame M and his bullshit. Just wanted to explain that. And Ophelias situation may be entirely different.
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 17:37:12 (EST)
From: Ophelia
Email: None
To: Selene and Ex-Mug
Subject: Ending Abuse Cycles
Message:
I honestly feel that I did the best I could given the circumstances. Ran away from an abusive childhood into an abusive marriage. Still idealistic, I figured God was rewarding my earlier spiritual efforts by leading me to the Perfect Master, the Lord of the Universe. When my house of cards collapsed, I started the slow process of finding out that I actually had choices. I'm no more angry at Maharaji than I am at the used car salesman who took advantage of my naivete. I don't expect spiritual leaders to have any more integrity than anyone else. My lack of trust is absolutely appalling, I know. I just try to be good, stay out of bars (as my dad used to say), and avoid suicide.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 04, 1999 at 01:44:06 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Ophelia
Subject: stating the obvious
Message:
This doesn't have anything to do with abuse cycles or maybe it does, but the obvious is ocurring to me that Maharaji talking about our ratholes is absurd if he doesn't consider that our spending of money to see him too frequently was one of the reasons that we lived in ratholes. I was always quiting jobs to go to programs until the only job I could do was drive a taxicab.

How the hell could we ever get ahead and have a better life?
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