Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 41

From: Mar 5, 1999

To: Mar 17, 1999

Page: 4 Of: 5



Runamok -:- Guru attacked on mass media? -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 00:28:45 (EST)
__cp -:- Guru attacked on mass media? -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 04:16:21 (EST)
__SHP -:- Guru attacked on mass media? -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 07:59:23 (EST)
____Helen -:- Guru attacked on mass media? -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 08:49:44 (EST)
__Jerry -:- Here's all the lyrics -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 09:36:24 (EST)
____Helen -:- Here's all the lyrics -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 09:56:26 (EST)
____Runamok -:- Here's all the lyrics -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 10:02:37 (EST)
______gerry -:- SHP's right on this one, Run -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 10:09:13 (EST)
________Garth -:- SHP's right on this one, Run -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 10:27:58 (EST)
__________Runamok -:- SHP's right on this one, Run -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 14:48:21 (EST)
__________Bob -:- SHP's right/Garth's Nazis -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 19:32:37 (EST)
____________Zac -:- Are you trying to improve the -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 20:01:30 (EST)
____________Gerry -:- Fill out the form letter, Bob? -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 20:02:01 (EST)
____________Runamok -:- cultism and fascism -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 22:46:39 (EST)
____________JW -:- Bob's Bullshit -:- Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 00:12:10 (EST)
______________Mike -:- Bob's Bullshit -:- Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 10:05:02 (EST)
______________Scott T. -:- Bob's Bullshit -:- Wed, Mar 10, 1999 at 12:14:17 (EST)
____________barney -:- Triumph of Will Sat Guru Come -:- Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 02:42:12 (EST)
______________Zac -:- Hold on there Bob we ain't -:- Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 08:32:06 (EST)
________________INaddition.... -:- Hold on there Bob we ain't -:- Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 11:44:46 (EST)
________________JW -:- Hey Zac -:- Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 13:40:30 (EST)
__________________Zac -:- Hey JW and Bob of course -:- Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 17:08:17 (EST)
________________Bob -:- Hold on there Bob we ain't -:- Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 16:28:02 (EST)
__________________Zac -:- Hold on there Bob we ain't -:- Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 17:37:52 (EST)
__________________Gerry -:- Rng any bells, Bob? -:- Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 17:58:07 (EST)
____________________Diz -:- Rng any bells, Bob? -:- Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 20:31:24 (EST)
______________________Zac -:- That say's it all Gerry -:- Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 21:55:16 (EST)
________________________barney -:- Catch-22 Warning Signs -:- Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 22:33:29 (EST)
______________________Gerry -:- Rng any bells, Bob? -:- Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 22:22:04 (EST)
____________Mike -:- SHP's wrong and so are you! -:- Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 10:16:06 (EST)
____________Freewheeling -:- Bob's 'advice' is suspect. -:- Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 23:28:22 (EST)
________Freewheeling -:- SHP's right on this one, Run -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 15:11:28 (EST)
________SHP -:- SHP's right on this one, Run -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 22:44:36 (EST)
__________Gerry -:- SHP's right on this one, Run -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 23:12:30 (EST)
____________SHP -:- SHP's right on this one, Run -:- Wed, Mar 10, 1999 at 02:32:07 (EST)
______________Gerry -:- SHP's right on this one, Run -:- Wed, Mar 10, 1999 at 14:09:12 (EST)
________________Miloochie -:- Goober -:- Wed, Mar 10, 1999 at 15:52:32 (EST)
____Freewheeling -:- Here's all the lyrics -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 15:05:24 (EST)
____Gail -:- Here's all the lyrics -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 23:09:53 (EST)
__HALIP -:- Another time, another song... -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 17:33:08 (EST)
____Mickey the Pharisee -:- Another time, another song... -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 17:47:32 (EST)
__Robert -:- Guru attacked on mass media? -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 18:30:13 (EST)
____Jethro -:- Guru attacked on mass media? -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 19:07:21 (EST)
______Runamok -:- Robert -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 23:24:02 (EST)
________Robert -:- Robert -:- Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 04:19:53 (EST)
__________Katie -:- to Robert (ot) -:- Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 08:18:07 (EST)
____________Runamok -:- to Robert (ot) -:- Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 10:36:15 (EST)
______Gail -:- Guru attacked on mass media? -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 23:24:07 (EST)
________Freewheeling -:- Sai Baba -:- Wed, Mar 10, 1999 at 17:29:18 (EST)

g's mom -:- The Tumeric Song -:- Sun, Mar 07, 1999 at 22:24:49 (EST)
__g's mom -:- no one? -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 11:42:43 (EST)
____Jethro -:- no one? -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 13:22:35 (EST)
______Mike -:- no one? -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 14:13:23 (EST)
________Jethro -:- M and his dad singing -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 19:12:09 (EST)
____Katie -:- I remember it, g's mom -:- Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 08:24:14 (EST)
______g's mom -:- that is an interesting thing -:- Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 11:06:34 (EST)
__Mike -:- translation (loose) -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 11:44:13 (EST)
____G's mom -:- Thank You!!! -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 11:47:27 (EST)

Doney -:- Hello -:- Sun, Mar 07, 1999 at 16:32:49 (EST)
__Miloochie -:- Hello -:- Sun, Mar 07, 1999 at 16:47:37 (EST)
____Robyn -:- Hello -:- Sun, Mar 07, 1999 at 21:19:11 (EST)
______barney -:- Agreed (nt) -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 03:38:55 (EST)
____Doney -:- Hello -:- Sun, Mar 07, 1999 at 22:39:02 (EST)
______Miloochie -:- Hello -:- Sun, Mar 07, 1999 at 23:18:52 (EST)
________Doney -:- Hello -:- Sun, Mar 07, 1999 at 23:28:11 (EST)
__________Miloochie -:- Down this list of messages -:- Sun, Mar 07, 1999 at 23:50:20 (EST)
__Gerry -:- Hello -:- Sun, Mar 07, 1999 at 18:06:38 (EST)
____Doney -:- Hello -:- Sun, Mar 07, 1999 at 22:30:59 (EST)
______Denise -:- Being in the Moment -:- Sun, Mar 07, 1999 at 22:59:05 (EST)
________Doney -:- Being in the Moment -:- Sun, Mar 07, 1999 at 23:06:17 (EST)
__________Denise -:- Being in the Moment -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 10:06:39 (EST)
____________g's mom -:- some of them need.... -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 11:30:16 (EST)
____________Helen -:- Being in the Moment -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 12:00:06 (EST)
______________g's mom -:- I hope I did not offend you -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 12:19:59 (EST)
________________Helen -:- I hope I did not offend you -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 13:14:15 (EST)
__________________Runamok -:- I hope I did not offend you -:- Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 02:27:50 (EST)
____________________Helen -:- I hope I did not offend you -:- Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 12:30:34 (EST)
____________Doney -:- Being in the Moment -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 12:41:39 (EST)
____________Rick -:- Being in the Moment -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 13:20:57 (EST)
______________gerry -:- Being in the Moment -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 13:28:24 (EST)
________________Cool Head Luke -:- Being in the Moment makes me -:- Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 21:55:37 (EST)
____________Katie -:- understanding Prozac? -:- Wed, Mar 10, 1999 at 10:33:39 (EST)
__________Jerry -:- I disagree -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 10:14:13 (EST)
____________Robyn -:- I disagree -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 10:32:11 (EST)
______________Jerry -:- I disagree -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 11:26:45 (EST)
________________JW -:- I disagree -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 13:14:06 (EST)
__________________g's mom -:- meditation... -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 13:23:08 (EST)
____________________Diz -:- meditation... -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 18:31:04 (EST)
______________________Jerry -:- meditation... -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 20:24:36 (EST)
________________________Diz -:- meditation... -:- Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 06:37:54 (EST)
______________________John -:- meditation... -:- Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 14:31:13 (EST)
________________________Diz -:- meditation... -:- Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 20:10:56 (EST)
__________________________John -:- meditation... -:- Wed, Mar 10, 1999 at 09:43:35 (EST)
____________________________Diz -:- No snacking, just longing -:- Thurs, Mar 11, 1999 at 06:27:43 (EST)
______________________________Helen -:- No snacking, just longing -:- Thurs, Mar 11, 1999 at 11:11:53 (EST)
________________Robyn -:- I disagree -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 15:17:05 (EST)
__________________Jerry -:- No problem, Robyn -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 19:04:01 (EST)
____________________Robyn -:- No problem, Robyn -:- Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 16:23:13 (EST)
____________Doney -:- I disagree -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 13:08:10 (EST)
______________Mike -:- I disagree -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 14:21:49 (EST)
________________Doney -:- I disagree -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 14:38:49 (EST)
__________________Mike -:- Thanks, Doney -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 15:24:52 (EST)
____________________Robyn -:- Thanks, Doney -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 15:42:50 (EST)
______________________Mike -:- Thanks, Robyn -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 16:47:15 (EST)
__________________Jerry -:- I disagree -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 15:55:07 (EST)
________________Robyn -:- I disagree -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 15:37:40 (EST)
__________________Mike -:- I disagree -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 16:23:23 (EST)
____________________Robyn -:- Mike -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 17:24:50 (EST)
__________________Red -:- I disagree -:- Wed, Mar 10, 1999 at 22:18:52 (EST)
____________CD -:- the power that is -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 15:45:58 (EST)
______________bill -:- puffing on the firestick -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 17:11:09 (EST)
______________Mike -:- what is your definition of -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 17:16:05 (EST)
________________CD -:- what is your definition of -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 20:47:43 (EST)
______________Jerry -:- the power that is -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 19:40:58 (EST)
________________CD -:- the power that is -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 20:45:58 (EST)
__________________Jerry -:- the power that is -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 22:46:13 (EST)
____________________Mike -:- might I add -:- Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 09:56:51 (EST)
____________________CD -:- learn from a seed -:- Wed, Mar 10, 1999 at 21:28:00 (EST)
______________________bill -:- learn from a seed -:- Thurs, Mar 11, 1999 at 04:16:01 (EST)
______________________Jerry -:- learn from a seed -:- Thurs, Mar 11, 1999 at 10:11:37 (EST)
______Robyn -:- Hello -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 10:22:44 (EST)
__Robyn -:- Hello -:- Sun, Mar 07, 1999 at 21:08:43 (EST)
____Doney -:- Hello -:- Sun, Mar 07, 1999 at 22:20:52 (EST)
______Robyn -:- Hello -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 10:39:02 (EST)
__g's mom -:- Hello Doney -:- Sun, Mar 07, 1999 at 22:30:34 (EST)
____Doney -:- Hello Doney -:- Sun, Mar 07, 1999 at 22:45:54 (EST)
______Helen -:- Hello Doney -:- Sun, Mar 07, 1999 at 23:27:28 (EST)
________Doney -:- Hello Doney -:- Sun, Mar 07, 1999 at 23:33:19 (EST)
__________Helen -:- Hello Doney -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 07:19:30 (EST)
______g's mom -:- Hello Doney -:- Sun, Mar 07, 1999 at 23:42:24 (EST)
________Doney -:- one more thing... -:- Sun, Mar 07, 1999 at 23:50:50 (EST)
__________Dyslexic G's mom -:- Above was from G's mom TOO Don -:- Sun, Mar 07, 1999 at 23:52:24 (EST)
__________Diz -:- Surely NOT a democracy -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 05:17:19 (EST)
____________Dyslexic Diz -:- Duh -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 05:27:13 (EST)
____________Doney -:- Surely NOT a democracy -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 12:51:33 (EST)
________Doney -:- Hello Doney -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 13:34:25 (EST)
__________g's mom -:- Have you read AJW's journey? -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 14:06:41 (EST)
____________g's mom -:- Have you read my journey? -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 14:17:00 (EST)
______________Doney -:- I'm Really Sorry -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 15:28:45 (EST)
________________g's mom -:- I'm Really Sorry -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 15:42:40 (EST)
__________________Doney -:- I Wouldn't Be So Sure -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 17:49:24 (EST)
____________________g's mom -:- I Wouldn't Be So Sure -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 23:59:54 (EST)
______________________Doney -:- I Wouldn't Be So Sure -:- Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 18:50:41 (EST)
________________________g's mom -:- when we started this... -:- Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 21:40:10 (EST)
__________________________Jethro -:- when we started this... -:- Wed, Mar 10, 1999 at 00:34:22 (EST)
____________________________g's mom -:- are they still around -:- Wed, Mar 10, 1999 at 01:41:35 (EST)
______________________________Jethro -:- are they still around -:- Wed, Mar 10, 1999 at 06:29:48 (EST)
________________________________Jean-Michel -:- Jagdeo's picture -:- Wed, Mar 10, 1999 at 10:05:00 (EST)
__________________________________Jethro -:- Jagdeo's picture -:- Wed, Mar 10, 1999 at 19:29:26 (EST)
____________________________________Jean-Michel -:- Would you save me some time? -:- Thurs, Mar 11, 1999 at 03:06:56 (EST)
________________________Katie -:- blame and responsibility -:- Wed, Mar 10, 1999 at 11:51:52 (EST)
__________________________Jean-Michel -:- M's to blame -:- Wed, Mar 10, 1999 at 12:57:26 (EST)
__________________________Doney -:- To Katie and g's mom -:- Wed, Mar 10, 1999 at 13:10:12 (EST)
____________________________Miloochie -:- Head spinning... -:- Wed, Mar 10, 1999 at 17:05:12 (EST)
______________________________Doney -:- Head spinning... -:- Wed, Mar 10, 1999 at 18:54:17 (EST)
________________________________Miloochie -:- Mud spinning... -:- Wed, Mar 10, 1999 at 23:16:10 (EST)
____________________________Katie -:- Re: To Katie and g's mom -:- Wed, Mar 10, 1999 at 19:37:30 (EST)
____________________________g's mom -:- to Doney -:- Wed, Mar 10, 1999 at 21:44:20 (EST)
__________________________Helen -:- blame and responsibility -:- Thurs, Mar 11, 1999 at 11:14:26 (EST)
____________Doney -:- Have you read AJW's journey? -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 15:18:28 (EST)
______________Jethro -:- Have you read AJW's journey? -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 19:22:03 (EST)
________________Doney -:- To Jethro and Denise -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 20:05:04 (EST)
______bill- anyone else want to -:- answer his question? -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 00:00:02 (EST)
________Miloochie -:- I think ur's was great bill-nt -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 00:38:12 (EST)
________Jerry -:- answer his question? -:- Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 11:11:21 (EST)


Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 00:28:45 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Guru attacked on mass media?
Message:
I saw Alanis Morrisette on Sat Night Live over the weekend. She was singing a very cynical, critical song with some eastern sounding licks in it. I am one to appreciate the head-on-attack that a rock song can sustain, and so I turned it up to listen. To my surprise, it sounded like she was attacking BM. Forgive me if I am wrong, but I heard her sing 'I've seen your students lining up to kiss your feet' in a really biting tone.

If my ears were correct, I don't know who else it would have referred to, do you? I mean there are others but, you tell me..
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 04:16:21 (EST)
From: cp
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Guru attacked on mass media?
Message:
Well now that you mention it,she does have that look about her, like her third eye is propped open with a toothpick. very distictive that. Could be.
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 07:59:23 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Guru attacked on mass media?
Message:
Runamok,

So if Alanis Morrissette or any celebrity speaks against Maharaji, using their fame to attract attention to their personal opinion, does that makes it righteous information?

If so, we are all destined to be 30 second sound bytes and forgotten forever, or until Oprah does a nostalgia show, or Jane Pauley covers it on her Time and Again show.

Have you ever seen Lost Horizon? It's a remake of the old Shangri-La movie, about a hidden valley in the Himalayas where there is a very peaceful life going on for alot of people. For me, Knowledge internalizes that experience so I can live and move in this crazy world and be insulated from it by something more real.

So what if Alanis spoke against Maharaji? So what? High-tech sound systems and global distribution networks don't make the message true, they just glamorize and hype it.
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 08:49:44 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: Guru attacked on mass media?
Message:
Not necessarily, shp. Good lyrics tend to come from REAL experiences people have had, and if Alanis has an ax to grind with M or some other guru in her song, why not?? It might reach someone's ears that needs to hear it. In fact I'd rather support music that deals with real life experiences like that than the usual 'baby baby you're so hot' bubble gummy stuff out there.

SO how ya been bean?.

I thought about you yesterday. My friend Wayne does heating and air conditioning repair work. He is a total dog nut like me and makes friends with all the dogs of his customers. He's working at one house where there are 2 dogs and when he comes over they wag their tails and go nuts as if to say 'HORRAY! WAYNE'S HERE!'
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 09:36:24 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Here's all the lyrics
Message:
'Baba' by Alanis Morisette

i've seen them kneel
with baited breath for the ritual
i've watched this experience raise
them to pseudo higher levels
i've watched them leave their families
in pursuit of your nirvana
i've seen them coming to line up
from switzerland to america

how long will this take baba
how long have we been sleeping
do you see me hanging on to
every word you say
how soon will I be holy
how much will this cost guru
how much longer 'til you
completely absolve me

i've seen them give their drugs up
in place of makeshift altars
i've heard them chanting
kali kali frantically
i've heard them rotely repeat your
teachings with elitism
i've seen them boasting robes and
foreign sandalwood beads
i've seen them overlooking god in
their own essense
i've seen their upward glances
in hopes of instant salvation
i've seen their righteousness
mixed without loving compassion
i've watched you smile as
the students bow to kiss your feet

give me strength all knowing one
how ling 'til enlightenment
how much longer 'til you
completely absolve me


Yup, I'd say she was talking about the lunacy of being on the master/devotee trip. I don't know if she's talking about the Big M one though. I think she's too young to have been around during the heyday of DLM. I don't think she's 30 yet. Maybe she's a premie's daughter, heh heh...
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 09:56:26 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Here's all the lyrics
Message:
What a great song. How long til you absolve me? --that's great.

It really sums up the trip well. I'm going to print it out and put it up on my wall
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 10:02:37 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Jerry, Helen, Shp, all
Subject: Here's all the lyrics
Message:
Thanks Jer! That sounds more like Muktananda, often called Baba, altho obviously Baba can be a term of endearment for anyone. Likewise, Mukkies chant 'Om namah shivaya', somewhat akin to chanting 'Kali, Kali'. Muk's been running up bad brownie points with his active successor Guru Mayi, who ousted her brother (literally) and fellow throne bearer for (gasp!) having sex. I'm repeating some of this info so sorry if you read it before.

Ship, old Ship. Nowhere did I say that in any way Alanis brought validity, proof, respectability, or any such quality to the proceedings. I am, however, glad to hear such lyrics as they reflect my own feelings (and I like Muk compared to M). Anyway, you managed to use your post to advertise what good you say M has done for you. Good for you! But I'm not sure what validity you bring to that claim.

We provide the validification and respectablitiy to the claims that Miragey is a fake and a hype and a ripoff thank you. You can bump along for your own reasons, whatever they are. I guess you can repeating your respect for Miragey on this forum, altho it's ironic for you to talk about one's brief fling with fame while doing so.

Is this your 15 minutes of the spotlight? Damn, I'd talk about anything but M.
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 10:09:13 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: SHP's right on this one, Run
Message:
High-tech sound systems and global distribution networks don't make the message true, they just glamorize and hype it.

So Sheep, tell it to Goober.
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 10:27:58 (EST)
From: Garth
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: SHP's right on this one, Run
Message:
Invalidating the medium doesn't necessarily invalidate the message.Shp should attempt to look beyond the hype of any medium, including M's hearts and flowers routine, to the real agenda (s). I can understand the confusion, if as McLuhan said, the medium was the message in Morrissette's song but, unlike a beer commercial, it isn't. Both Maharaj Ji and the beer commercial juxtapose feel-good emotions with the product they are selling, links that do not exist in reality, but are artificially associated with each other in the recipient's mind to SELL THE PRODUCT.Did anyone ever see that Nazi propaganda film of the 30's called 'Triumph of the Will'? Associations between athletic achievement and political rhetoric, laughing children and uniformed SS officers; very effective - M is just as subtle and equally evil.
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 14:48:21 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Garth
Subject: SHP's right on this one, Run
Message:
I watched 'Lost Horizons' the same weekend as 'Triumph of the Will', so I mix them up.

Which one had eastern priests marching under swastikas in Berlin?

Wait, I'm confusing this with reality, where Hitler was closely associated with an eastern oriented occultist movement which glibly used spiritual concepts to rationalize racism and other types of backward and violence-producing precepts.
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 19:32:37 (EST)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: All/Garth
Subject: SHP's right/Garth's Nazis
Message:
'Did anyone ever see that Nazi propaganda film of the 30's called 'Triumph of the Will'? Associations between athletic achievement and political rhetoric, laughing children and uniformed SS officers; very effective - M is just as subtle and equally evil.'

Quotes like these from Garth do more to discredit and undermine the validity of your forum than you might imagine. You should be embarrassed to even print this. You think this kind of garbage allows anyone to take you seriously? Wild allegations that make the Richard Gere gerbil story sound reasonable combined with Hitler comparisons and people saying 'lard' like a bunch of slow-moving third graders. Is this intended to make Maharaji look bad? In fact, you may be so involved in the world of your forum that you don't realize this kind of crap acts as an anti-commercial for your presumed purpose. Dissing knowledge and Maharaji the way many of you do actually makes YOU look bad, not him. It makes YOU look intolerant and cult-like, not him. As far as I can remember, he's stayed out of people's lifestyles (even wayyyy back in the ashram days it was always voluntary, unless your memories have failed you), marriages and businesses. Have you stayed out of his? And how accurate is the reporting here? From what I've observed first-hand, your level of accuracy is laughable, perhaps 15-20% facts and the rest, hot gas.

I feel sorry for anyone, ex or not, who just eats this rubbish. It wouldn't even pass muster at the Star along with the latest bulimia diet (though it might help the diet along!). Then there seems to be the those-who-are-intimidated-by-Jim Heller group and the those-that-stand-up-to-Jimsters. Sheeesh. What goes on here is weirder and far more in-groupy than anything I've seen around Maharaji and I've seen some stupid stuff around him. But he is nothing like what I've seen described here and anyone who knows him would just laugh at the picture that's painted, regrettable though it may be that it's even printed.

The Kissimmee sex fantasies are kind of cute. At least some people are getting a nice creative writing outlet. It is good, however, to know the difference between creative writing and horseshit and there are people here who are simply piling on the stench.

good luck, Bob
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 20:01:30 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: Are you trying to improve the
Message:
Ex-page Bob or just blowing hot gas?

'As far as I can remember, he's stayed out of people's
lifestyles (even wayyyy back in the ashram days it was always voluntary, unless your memories have failed you), marriages and businesses.'

This is the only substantitive statement in your post and it's wrong. He's in peoples lifestyles, businesses and marriages. At a recent 1998 event in Miami he advised against marriage. Wayyy back in the ashram days he said the only reason he'd have a job (business)was to go to programs. And his stooges pressured people in and out of the ashram lifestyle.

Maybe this page isn't for you Bob!
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 20:02:01 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: Fill out the form letter, Bob?
Message:
You must have. You hit all the salient and (yawn) usual ''points.''

1) Stop saying what you do because it's garbage and make us look bad. (Thanks for your concern)

2) This site is the cult, not M's ''organization''

3) Mahahahji's lifesytle is non of our business.

4) He feels sorry for us

5) Obligatory slam on Jim and his ''cult groupies.''

6) The BM's not a fraud, he's really cool.

You did forget to check the 'get a life' and ''move on'' box on the website complaint generator. You might want to go back and redo it, Bob.
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 22:46:39 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: cultism and fascism
Message:
Bob:

This is a democracy of sorts. People say what they want if it does not threaten. You are free to argue, criticize, and accuse on this forum although we may not like you or agree with you much.

It's hard for people who live under dictatorships (of sorts) to understand the beauty of a democracy, but in general it is a better system. Not that we all don't sometimes yearn for the archetypal good king. It's just that there are a thousand con men for every good king, so why not cut our losses and admit Goomiragey was a fraudulent messiah who tricked us into following
him with promises of world peace and personal salvation that he couldn't even keep track of.

Comparing Miragey to Hitler? Okay he doesn't commit genocide, I will agree. What he does is he steps on people by the thousands in order to fill his pockets or get whatever gratification it is that he gets. You don't agree? You're welcome to argue here. Not specifically that I welcome you because I really do not. But thems the rules.

I don't think you'll find me at a third grade level, and frankly I would rather listen to people comparing M with the Nazis than you, but I will attempt to intelligently respond to you if you attempt to intelligently participate here.

Or head home to the friendly skies of your dictatorial guru, and he can tell you how to think. We won't miss you.
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Date: Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 00:12:10 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: Bob's Bullshit
Message:
Bob:

You sound like a lot of the premie posts we've seen. It's not very original. However, the following is an aboslute lie, or your memory is really, really bad:

As far as I can remember, he's stayed out of people's lifestyles (even wayyyy back in the ashram days it was always voluntary, unless your memories have failed you), marriages and businesses.

Guru Maharaji prescribed an ENTIRE lifestyle. It was called satsang, service and meditation. It took up your entire life if you did what he prescribed. He even told us what to eat (vegetarian), and if you think the ashram was 'voluntary' in terms of leaving if you didn't like it, your memory is even worse than I thought.

From what I've observed first-hand, your levelof accuracy is laughable, perhaps 15-20% facts and the rest, hot gas.

Enlighten us Bob. Exactly what is the 80-85% that's innaccurate? Be specific please.
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Date: Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 10:05:02 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Bob's Bullshit
Message:
Hey JW, since his post is 100 percent inaccurate, that makes our measley 20 percent accuracy rate look pretty good, doesn't it? :-)
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Date: Wed, Mar 10, 1999 at 12:14:17 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Bob's Bullshit
Message:
But we're peas-in-a-pod, Joe; don't you know that? Completely marching in route step. It's positively shameful we agree so much.

-Scott

(You WERE right about recumbents being noticed, though they are frequently admired rather than ridiculed... sniff.)
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Date: Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 02:42:12 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: Triumph of Will Sat Guru Come
Message:
Bob,

You're 100% correct. We're a cult and four times a year we meet at various locations around the world. We view secret video tapes of the secret message.

All this garbage on the Forum is the Lila of our master and the acid test to weed out the losers.

Sounds like I'm being insensitive to you and maybe I am. You are operating under a grand illusion and some of the stuff on the Forum has hit you a little too close to home and you are reacting. Think about it.

I don't think that what's going on would bother you if you didn't think that it might be, could be true. I think that time and time again and maybe the old timers around here can verify this, but hardcore premies like you come busting in here complaining that we are total liars and all the usual stuff. Again, I think that you are reacting and in a state of denial. Your claims that Maharaji never suggested nor demanded a lifestyle is simply ludicrous and you and I and everyone here knows that. I can't believe that anyone for a minute can buy into that.

And what specifically are you referring to as being 80 to 85% of our facts being wrong? Does Jagdeo's child molestation by first hand account fall into that category? That's sick stuff. And if you read that story here it's too real and too sincere to even for a second not to consider it as being very likely true.

Maharaji not like Hitler, a horrible comparison? No, consider this: The elitist Aryan philosophy of the Nazis was seen by the oppressed and impoverished German people as a way out of the misery of the hardship put on them by the Treaty of Versailles in 1919. The Nazi party brought them hope and prosperity. Please don't misunderstand me on this, Bob. I'm not defending Hitler, ok? But, people desperate for hope will buy anything and ignore the little inklings that something is wrong. And there is an incredible amount of peer pressure involved, too.

A lot of the transformation of Germany into the elitist military empire and worse was accomplished at the grass roots level through peer pressure and slick propaganda ala Leni Riefenstahl's Triumph of the Will (TOTW). Consider the parallels to Divine Light Mission with our little elitist vision, peer pressure and propaganda.

Here's a little review from IMDB website by someone about TOTW:

Triumph des Willens is one of the most dangerous propaganda films ever made. It does not tell us what we should believe in (not in words anyway), it seduces us into it. The impact is emotional, not rational. There is no debate, no argument. There are speeches, but these speeches resemble more the religious ramblings of prophets than the reasoning of a modern politician.

Riefenstahl appeals to our herd-animal instincts, our desire to be engulfed in a large group and contributing to it. Riefenstahl tries to impress us with grandiose pictures of masses of people being transfixed by the speakers (especially Hitler, of course), the architecture of the place, torch marches, lots of banners and all that other Nazi mumbo jumbo.


Doesn't this sound vaguely and uncomfortably familiar like Sat Guru Has Come and that other lame documentary? Do you really remember the old days: the marches, the Bhole Shri's, the illegal-we-are-above-the-law postering, the banners, the films and gatherings where huge crowds were shown mesmerized by Maharaji? You don't think that style of Sat Guru Has Come was not influenced by Triumph of the Will? And isn't the desired effect of both films the basically the same, one of unquestioning loyalty and devotion to the point of ignoring any possible wrong doing? Shit, this is what it is. It's a bit shocking to think about. Ok, Maharaji ain't never gonna be as bad as Hitler.

Please understand that Maharaji spends an incredible amount of effort and money in crafting his venues to facilitate his effectiveness. It's all very well scripted down to the second. Basically, propaganda is propaganda. There are well known practiced techniques to help get the message across and Maharaji uses them as effectively as Hitler did.

Finally, Bob, your denial of Maharaji strongly suggesting a lifestyle comes too close to the Holocaust revisionists who claim it never happened. How's that for sizzle?

You see, there is a valid comparison to Hitler here. Hell, when I started writing this I didn't think there was, but you know after doing a little research and considering the comparisons, it's rather striking! Egocentric dictators always share something in common.
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Date: Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 08:32:06 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: Hold on there Bob we ain't
Message:
done yet. Ever go to a video in the 90's. Sit down and on comes the mindnumbing subliminal music that is specifically sold for stress relief in health food stores. Lights go down. Video on. Watch the flowers, birds and water shots crafted around MJ's audio clips and quotes printed on the screen. Then shots of him smiling and walking confidently among his followers. Lights come up and you can go home now you've received your weekly programming.

How is it any different than that? Did he invent those programs or simply borrow the methods and techniques? If borrowed where did he get them? I think Garth and Barney are onto something. Thanks for helping us to clarify this piece of the puzzle there Bob. Anything else you care to comment on.
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Date: Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 11:44:46 (EST)
From: INaddition....
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: Hold on there Bob we ain't
Message:
Hey Zac, make sure you ask Bob about all those slowmotion segments in the videos.
You know... m walking in slowmotion, m turning his head in slowmotion, m bending down to smell a flower in slowmotion, m smiling in slowmotion, m farting in slowmotion....you know what I'm talking about Zac.
All done to make his every action seem BIGGER than it actually is, to give an illusionary significance to his every action that has no bases whatsoever in reality... to give m himself, an illusionary significance that has no bases in reality.
Glad we had this chance to talk Zac. love your stuff.
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Date: Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 13:40:30 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: Hey Zac
Message:
Zac, I think what you are saying is very perceptive and something I had never thought about.

A long time ago I wrote a 'review' of Maharaji speaking on a video, I think in Long Beach in 1996. Brian put it on the website as a 'video review.' I think what you are saying here about the subliminal stuff with the music and what someone else said about the slow-motion images of Maharaji are important. I saw those things, but I didn't see the significance you did, but I did focus somewhat on the the hypnotic, repetitive way he speaks. But the music and the slo-mo is also part of it. I'd like to suggest you write something up about this so Brian can put it in the video section of the website. This is something people, especially interested people and aspirants, should know about. They need to know how they are being manipulated. Thanks.
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Date: Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 17:08:17 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Hey JW and Bob of course
Message:
Try this experiment if you have a camcorder. Take some pictures of yourself, wife, kids and friends having a barbecue at the beach.
Make sure there's plenty of beer. Then when your showing your home movies run them in slow motion and pretend that your at the hall watching a video. If you could edit it properly and put on some One Foundation music your loved one's would look as powerful as Big M. I actually thought about this one when M did the Now and Forever video. Later I saw slow motion pictures of Micheal Jordan and wondered if he wasn't the perfect something.

Speaking of Now and Forever, forever is a loooooonnnnnngggg time.
Doesn't that title say something about M's trip. Does he think he'll be there beyond the grave for the premies? Does he want the premies to think so? Ah huh. Don't they want to think he'll be there? Let's ask em'. Premies? Bob?

It's the fairy tale silly's. It's not hard to readjust your thinking about M if you can let go of the fairy tale.

I'll check out the video section JW and see if there is anything I can contribute.
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Date: Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 16:28:02 (EST)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Zac/Runamok et al
Subject: Hold on there Bob we ain't
Message:
Ok fellas...let me get this straight. You're equating nature footage of birds and the ocean with Triumph of the Will and Mein Kampf? You're equating a guy whose most aggresive physical action has been spraying thousands of mostly quite happy people with colored water with a deranged madman who had millions of people put to a gruesome death?

People may very well become bored to tears looking at hummingbirds but I have yet to hear of a single case involving fatalities at video events or bird-watching conventions.

Yes, slow-motion and the ocean can be quite sinister. If you combined the two, for a slow-motion ocean, you might have a lethal cocktail that I feel is a prime candidate for legislation.

Have you folks considered, even faintly, the possibility that you're looking at this whole deal through some VERY peculiar glasses?

Bob
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Date: Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 17:37:52 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: Hold on there Bob we ain't
Message:
Look Bob, Birds I can get on the Discovery channel. It is the intent behind the finely crafted videos that bugs me. It is the subtle message he sends in those videos. See my post above. Now and Forever what does that mean to you?

Comparing M to Hitler may be a stretch but was Hitler ever physically aggressive towards anyone? I don't know. Pretty small guy. He probably got his ass kicked once and decided to reach his ends in other ways. Decided to manipulate peoples thoughts and feelings so they would think he was something special. Now does M do that? Now and Forever..................
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Date: Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 17:58:07 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: Rng any bells, Bob?
Message:
Ten warning signs of a potentially unsafe group/leader.

1.Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability.

2.No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.

3.No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget, expenses such as an independently audited financial statement.

4.Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions.

5.There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil.

6.Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances.

7.There are records, books, news articles, or television programs that document the abuses of the group/leader.

8.Followers feel they can never be 'good enough'.

9.The group/leader is always right.

10.The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing 'truth' or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.

Ten warning signs regarding people involved in/with a potentially unsafe group/leader.

1.Extreme obsessiveness regarding the group/leader resulting in the exclusion of almost every practical consideration.

2.The group/leader, self and/or God as distinctly separate identities become increasingly blurred in the follower's mind. These identities are substantially fused as the member's involvement continues.

3.Whenever the group/leader is criticized or questioned it is characterized as 'persecution'.

4.Uncharacteristically stilted and seemingly programmed conversation and mannerisms, cloning of the group/leader in personal behavior.

5.Dependency upon the group/leader for problem solving, solutions, and definitions without meaningful reflective thought. A seeming inability to think independently or analyze situations without group/leader involvement.

6.Hyperactivity centered on the group/leader agenda, which seems to supercede any personal goals or individual interests.

7.A dramatic loss of spontaneity and sense of humor.

8.Increasing isolation from family and old friends unless they demonstrate an interest in the group/leader.

9.Anything the group/leader does can be justified no matter how harsh or harmful.

10.Former followers are at best-considered negative or worse evil and under bad influences. They can not be trusted and personal contact is avoided.

Ten signs of a safe group/leader.

1.A safe group/leader will answer your questions without becoming judgmental and punitive.

2.A safe group/leader will disclose information such as finances and often offer an independently audited financial statement regarding budget and expenses. Safe groups and leaders will tell you more than you want to know.

3.A safe group/leader is often democratic, sharing decision making and encouraging accountability and oversight.

4.A safe group/leader may have disgruntled former followers, but will not vilify, excommunicate and forbid others from associating with them.

5.A safe group/leader will not have a paper trail of overwhelmingly negative records, books, articles and statements about them.

6.A safe group/leader will encourage family communication, community interaction and existing friendships and not feel threatened.

7.A safe group/leader will recognize reasonable boundaries and limitations when dealing with others.

8.A safe group/leader will encourage critical thinking, individual autonomy and feelings of self-esteem.

9.A safe group/leader will admit failings and mistakes and accept constructive criticism and advice.

10.A safe group/leader will not be the only source of knowledge and learning excluding everyone else, but value dialogue and the free exchange of ideas.

Don't be naïve, develop a good BS Detector.

You can protect yourself from unsafe groups and leaders by developing a good BS detector. Check things out, know the facts and examine the evidence. A safe group will be patient with your decision making process. If a group or leader grows angry and anxious just because you want to make an informed and careful decision before joining; beware.
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Date: Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 20:31:24 (EST)
From: Diz
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Rng any bells, Bob?
Message:
Hey Gerry

That's one for the printer. Where did it come from - or did you write it?

Thanks

Diz
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Date: Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 21:55:16 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: That say's it all Gerry
Message:
To bad you couldn't email that to me back in time about 20 years.
I've copied it for future dinner dates with card carrying members so we can go over each point.

Of course any premie would say that doesn't apply to Mahrji. He's above all that. The world is his oyster. He doesn't have to answer to anyone. Let's see that's Unsafe Leader points 1,2,9,& 10.

Bob - Please read Gerry's post and tell me where that doesn't fit Maharaji's trip to a tee. On your first post Bob see Unsafe involvement points 1,3,5,9,& 10. Second post see points 1,3,9.
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Date: Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 22:33:29 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: Catch-22 Warning Signs
Message:
Yes, I can even hear myself not too long ago smuggly denying that these Warning Signs apply to Maharaji in a Catch-22 fashion.

And that reason is because HE IS GOD! Or at least I thought he was.
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Date: Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 22:22:04 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Diz
Subject: Rng any bells, Bob?
Message:
Hi Diz,

Yes, I should reference it:
Rick Ross' Website

Turn your speakers off if you dislike canned website muzak.
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Date: Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 10:16:06 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: SHP's wrong and so are you!
Message:
Bob: If this site were having the opposite of its intended effect, you wouldn't be here telling us that! Your supposition is, itself, LAUGHABLE!

Second, NOTHING about M was 'voluntary' wayyyyy back in the ashram days. Any ex-ashramite can tell you THAT! Your accuracy level just dropped to ZERO!

Third, other than actual genocide, M's tactics come straight out of the great cult-classic, Mien Kampf. Read it before you make a silly statement like that. No, he doesn't pick on any ethnic group, he picks on the MIND and BRAIN! Replace those words in Mien Kampf and you'll see that cultism is cultism under ANY banner, nazi or otherwise. M is a dictator.... he takes no advice from anyone, disclaims any responsibility for the acts of his brainwashed brown-shirts and always maintains a position of plausible deniability! His word is law with you and you will NOT question him or his motives. Care for any other comparisons?

Fourth, who's Jim Heller????? (just kidding Jim) :-)
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Date: Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 23:28:22 (EST)
From: Freewheeling
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: Bob's 'advice' is suspect.
Message:
Bob:

What goes on here is weirder and far more in-groupy than anything I've seen around Maharaji and I've seen some stupid stuff around him.

Nope. Just not true. Anyone with any objectivity can see this. I know from first hand experience that we have huge disagreements on this site, far more that would ever have been tolerated in any premie community I've ever seen.... ya know? Careful or we'll start transcribing satsang. In one half hour of satsang once I counted over 70 'ya knows.' There were people who said it every third word. And what would have happened had any appreciable number of people said something like: 'No, I don't know.' In contrast, the diversity of opinions here is sometimes genuinely painful... a sure sign of life. No element of that reality ever reaches you guys. None at all.

Moreover, what you've said in your post pisses me off because you could not possibly be dumb enough to believe it. Therefore, it is simply a willful and deliberate lie. I'd call it something like a 'strategic' lie. Unfortunately for you, people who read this forum can exercise common sense. Authoritarian organizations are similar in some respects, and one can account those similarities not because they manifested the same crimes, but because, by their very nature, they have the capacity to manifest the same crimes. You are blowing smoke, but the agenda is still transparent.

FW
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 15:11:28 (EST)
From: Freewheeling
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: SHP's right on this one, Run
Message:
So Sheep, tell it to Goober.

Good one Gerry. That almost matches G's Mom's 'admiring a horse's ass' comment.

FW
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 22:44:36 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: SHP's right on this one, Run
Message:
I'm not your messenger, gerry. If that's how you feel, you tell him. You know his e-mail address. Have a good night.
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 23:12:30 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: SHP's right on this one, Run
Message:
Gosh, Sandy, you sound a little testy tonight. Is everything OK?
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Date: Wed, Mar 10, 1999 at 02:32:07 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: SHP's right on this one, Run
Message:
You are so used to games that when it comes across right between your eyes you find the need to look for alternate issues. No, I'm not testy, gerry. Just plain matter-of-fact honest to the point information. And I don't know anyone named Goober.

So let me say once again and as nicely as I can, gerry, that if you have something that you wish to express to Maharaji, you know how to e-mail him. I believe it would be inappropriate of me to represent you or your opinion, which I don't happen to share.

Hope this note finds you well and in good spirits.
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Date: Wed, Mar 10, 1999 at 14:09:12 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: SHP's right on this one, Run
Message:
Oh come on, Sandy. You know I was being ironic, or whatever, but not literal. I didn't expect you to actually e-mail goober for me. Get real.

You are so used to games that when it comes across right between your eyes you find the need to look for alternate issues

I have no idea what this means. If you'd care to explain, I'm all ears. Always looking to improve myself.

PS Goober is my pet name for prem pal singh rawat aka guru maharaj ji aka maharaji aka sant ji maharaj aka goomeragie aka BM aka The Lard, aka LOTU, etc, etc, etc. It's my attempt to personalize the distain I feel for the Fraud of the Universe
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Date: Wed, Mar 10, 1999 at 15:52:32 (EST)
From: Miloochie
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Goober
Message:
PS Goober is my pet name for prem pal singh rawat aka guru maharaj ji aka maharaji aka sant ji maharaj aka goomeragie aka BM aka The Lard, aka LOTU, etc, etc, etc. It's my attempt to personalize the distain I feel for the Fraud of the Universe

Your 'attempt' is successful. LOL
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 15:05:24 (EST)
From: Freewheeling
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Here's all the lyrics
Message:
Jerry:

Yup, I'd say she was talking about the lunacy of being on the master/devotee trip. I don't know if she's talking about the Big M one though. I think she's too young to have been around during the heyday of DLM. I don't think she's 30 yet. Maybe she's a premie's daughter, heh heh...

Sounds to me like she's singing about Sai Baba, but close enough.

FW
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 23:09:53 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Here's all the lyrics
Message:
Thanks for the song. Maybe she's talking about Sai Baba since she says, 'How long will this take, baba?'

Maybe she's talking about MJ. There are quite a few premies, exs, and others that MJ's grubby message has touched.
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 17:33:08 (EST)
From: HALIP
Email: None
To: Runamok and all
Subject: Another time, another song...
Message:
Well, there's another one attacking some 'holy' man from way back then...
Remember John, Paul, George and Ringo -- the Fab Four going to India to be with Maharesh Mahesh Yogi ( orth?) and getting desillusioned with the whole trip ? Well, that experience gave birth to a song 'Sexy Sadie', from the double white album. Here are the lyrics :

'Sexy Sadie what have you done
'You made a fool of everyone
'You made a fool of everyone
'Sexy Sadie what have you done

'Sexy Sadie you broke the rules
'You laid it down for all to see
'You laid it down for all to see
'Sexy Sadie you broke the rules

'One sunny day the world was waiting for a lover
'She came along to turn on everyone
'Sexy Sadie she's the greatest of them all

'Sexy Sadie how did you know
'The world was waiting just for you
'The world was waiting just for you
'Sexy Sadie how did you know

'Sexy Sadie you'll get yours yet
'However big you think you are
'However big you think you are
'Sexy Sadie you'll get yours yet

'We gave everything just to sit at her table
'Just a smile would lighten everything
'Sexy Sadie she's the latest and the greatest of them all

'She made a fool of everyone
'Sexy Sadie

'However big you think you are
'Sexy Sadie'

Well, so there it is...very à propos, n'est-ce pas?
Tennis, anyone ?
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 17:47:32 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: HALIP
Subject: Another time, another song...
Message:
Hey, Beatle fans, my daughter worked as a Tech at the Ringo Starr All-stars show at the Berkeley Community Theater last night. She said that she hadn't seen that many grandpas and grandmas outside of a convalescent home. :-)
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 18:30:13 (EST)
From: Robert
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Guru attacked on mass media?
Message:
For your info, Alanis Morrissette spent time in India with a guru who had nothing to do with Maharaji and who she refers to in the song you mentioned. Not that that fact will stop some folks here from repeating it ad infinitum 'til it becomes part of the accepted 'lore.' ;)

Robert
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 19:07:21 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Robert
Subject: Guru attacked on mass media?
Message:
'Alanis Morrissette spent time in India with a guru who had nothing to do with Maharaji and who she refers to in the song you mentioned.'

Ithas to do with the same thing as M is into. His con is not that original.
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 23:24:02 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Robert
Subject: Robert
Message:
Well, duh, Robert. I was actually seeking the information. Gee, you're so helpful and smart. Why can't I be more like you?
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Date: Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 04:19:53 (EST)
From: Robert
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Robert
Message:
I answered your question factually. Are you totally incapable of a human, civilized response? No wonder people come here once or twice and split.

Robert

Hi Katie, by the way......
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Date: Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 08:18:07 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Robert
Subject: to Robert (ot)
Message:
Hi Robert -
I don't want to get in between you and Runamok (that could be dangerous!), but I have another question to ask you. I think, although I may be wrong, that you are the person who wrote about Sam J. (did you read my response?). If you are that person, I would really like to know anything that you know, if you feel OK about talking about it. This is a personal request, and you can e-mail me if you want - I promise not to divulge your e-mail or identity to anyone.

BTW, if I know you from DC, I cannot place you (those memories are kind of foggy at times.)

Take care,
Katie
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Date: Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 10:36:15 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: to Robert (ot)
Message:
Robert,

You acted like the purpose of my posting was to disseminate misinformation.. Clearly the purpose of the posting (if you read the original post) was to gain information. You did give information and it is factual. Assuming it is true, I thank you. You also added a healthy dose of scorn, contempt and ridicule, specifically implying that the reason for the discussion was to generate anti-Miragey propaganda.

Shouldn't you ask yourself if you are capable of civilized conversation as well? Mine was a pretty reasonable response to you considering the tone of your own post.

I'm capable of intelligent, reasoned conversation, although I can't speak for everyone here. Since you implicitly addressed me I took offense. Be straight with me, you can have your civility. Otherwise, do what thou wilt. I'm not claiming to be a nice guy (although I tend to be, honest).
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 23:24:07 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Guru attacked on mass media?
Message:
Someone mentioned a deceased musician last summer. (S)he said that his widow had turned her Malibu home into an ashram for Sai Baba. When this person arrived, it was like deja vu from MJ's ashram trip of the 70s with arti and all.

That's why I think the song refers to BABA.
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Date: Wed, Mar 10, 1999 at 17:29:18 (EST)
From: Freewheeling
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Sai Baba
Message:
Gail:

Sai Baba is a truly nasty little sub-human, who diddles children. Whether or not he is more evil than Maharaji in an absolute sense, his stink is certainly stronger.

FW
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Date: Sun, Mar 07, 1999 at 22:24:49 (EST)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The Tumeric Song
Message:
Today I made a recipe with Tumeric in it. All the ex's will soon ban me from the net when this lil ditty starts goin through your head....

Deep voiced Mahatma bellows....

Kaho Kai See Tumeric( or tamari whatever ) ban a joun Rah see ah!
Kaho Kai See Tumeric ( or Tamari whatever ) ban a joun Rah see ah!
Ban a joun rah see ah
Ban a joun rah see ah
Ban a joun rah see ah
Ban a joun Rah see ah
Kaho Kai see Tumeric ban a joun Rah see ah!

There was a translation...anyone recall...?

If you don't remember this a little clue to the sound of the song was it was sorta acapella(sp) and was reminiscent of 'Give Peace a Chance'.

Anyone else think it was a song about Indian spices?
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 11:42:43 (EST)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: g's mom
Subject: no one?
Message:
No one remembers this song :(
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 13:22:35 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: g's mom
Subject: no one?
Message:
I think it was one of gurucharanand's songs. It is vaguelay familiar.
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 14:13:23 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: no one?
Message:
Jethro: According to Charanand (at Miami '77/78) it was a song that M used to sing to him dad. His reaction, when we sang it to him, was interesting. ;-)
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 19:12:09 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: M and his dad singing
Message:
hello Mike, I have M on tape singing a Bajan, I aslo have his father singing bajans. Maybe I should auction them?

Still premies don't seem that devoted theses days. In my time I would paid almost anything to have such recordings. I can't believe how I loved anything to do with him.

love from Jethro
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Date: Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 08:24:14 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: g's mom
Subject: I remember it, g's mom
Message:
I do remember it, but only after you reminded me (gee, THANKS!). I remember the repeated 'turmeric' real well, and also remember not knowing what it meant. (Thanks for the translation, Mike).

It's amazing how all this stuff is still in my head somewhere. It makes me wonder what ELSE is in there that I don't remember.
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Date: Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 11:06:34 (EST)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: that is an interesting thing
Message:
about the site. Someone will mention something I had completely forgotten about and I suddenly recall it vividly. Like the telescoping baragons and the status baragons! Songs though are the most bizarre thing, the way all the words seem to be sitting ithere just ready to remember.
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 11:44:13 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: g's mom
Subject: translation (loose)
Message:
G's Mom: The lyrics, as I remember them, 'tumeric' is actually 'tum Hari.' The loose translation is, 'Lord, please teach me how to love you.' Hari is a name for god or lord.

Hope that helped... and YES, THANKS ALOT for helping me to remember that silly song that M used to love to sing to his dad. Great, just GREAT! he he he :-)
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 11:47:27 (EST)
From: G's mom
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Thank You!!!
Message:
I felt that no one must share this repulsive memory with me for awhile! I guess I was alone in the Tumeric/Tamari part though...
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Date: Sun, Mar 07, 1999 at 16:32:49 (EST)
From: Doney
Email: Doney06@aol.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Hello
Message:
I've been reading the forum and this website (off and on) since my wife gave me a computer for Christmas. [It's one of those Gateway Computers that came in a box painted like a Jersey cow.] It's been interesting reading all the interaction among premies and ex-premies.

Well, I'm still a premie, even after all these years, and you may think I'm crazy (also after all these years). It's been an up and down trip for me. I stayed away for a few years because I just couldn't handle it, but I went to a couple of programs in 1996 and 1997 and to the satellite broadcast in December, and I liked the familiar feeling of joy that I got listening to Maharaji. I do enjoy practicing meditation and I find it helps me in my life. I don't have any answers as to why things are the way they are around Maharaji and premies. I try to keep my own views and not be influenced by other premies. Anyhow, I'm a survivor from the 70s and I'm still here. I think this life is pretty wonderful and I find that knowledge helps me be more 'in the moment,' and to miss less of my life than I otherwise would. I'm grateful for that.

But, I think this website is, on balance, a positive thing. Like some premies, some ex-premies probably go overboard on how they see things, but I think if you talk about your views, they tend to get moderated by the viewpoints of others. I have a theory that many of the premies who questioned things in DLM and EV tended to be the people who dropped out of participation in what Maharaji is doing . Frankly, I think Maharaji's organization would be much improved if people like y'all were still around.

I need to keep anonymous here for a number of reasons, but I
I think I know a couple of you ex-premies from my ashram days. I hope all is going well with you guys. Here's to happy days!

Doney
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Date: Sun, Mar 07, 1999 at 16:47:37 (EST)
From: Miloochie
Email: None
To: Doney
Subject: Hello
Message:
I'm a rookie here, but welcome to the discussion, slugfests and henna-mud slinging.
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Date: Sun, Mar 07, 1999 at 21:19:11 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Miloochie
Subject: Hello
Message:
Dear Miloochie,
Very funny and very perseptive! :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 03:38:55 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Agreed (nt)
Message:
adsfasdfasfd
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Date: Sun, Mar 07, 1999 at 22:39:02 (EST)
From: Doney
Email: None
To: Miloochie
Subject: Hello
Message:
Miloochie:

That's a great name. Where does it come from? What is 'henna-mud?' Thanks for the welcome.
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Date: Sun, Mar 07, 1999 at 23:18:52 (EST)
From: Miloochie
Email: None
To: Doney
Subject: Hello
Message:
Miloochie is a nickname a friend used to call me.

Henna-mud? I think it's in the Truth About Maharaji site or the DLM/EV page. It takes awhile to find the reference.

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

Doney...just kidding...read on down the list

BTW, what's the background on 'Doney'?
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Date: Sun, Mar 07, 1999 at 23:28:11 (EST)
From: Doney
Email: None
To: Miloochie
Subject: Hello
Message:
Doney...just kidding...read on down the list

I hope the italics work. My wife showed me html.

Read down what list?
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Date: Sun, Mar 07, 1999 at 23:50:20 (EST)
From: Miloochie
Email: None
To: Doney
Subject: Down this list of messages
Message:
You're doing well with the italics. It took me a couple of weeks. I still can't figure out the link instructions, but haven't given it a try yet. Maybe doing it will reveal the trick.

I'm already spending a whole lot of time here.
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Date: Sun, Mar 07, 1999 at 18:06:38 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Doney
Subject: Hello
Message:
Yes, Doney, hello to you. You said:

I think this life is pretty wonderful and I find that knowledge helps me be more 'in the moment,' and to miss less of my life than I otherwise would. I'm grateful for that.

I agree that life is pretty wonderful. (I'd drop the ''this life'' terminology if I were you, it makes you sound like a cult parrot.)

How do you know that K makes you ''more in the moment? '' Does that imply that those without it are ''less in the moment?''

I don't think so and it's this elitist thing which bugs me the most about this whole trip.

Why would you miss some of your life if you didn't have knowledge? It's these unexamined presuppositions that I question.
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Date: Sun, Mar 07, 1999 at 22:30:59 (EST)
From: Doney
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Hello
Message:
Gerry:

I need to get the hang of copying and replying to posts, so this answer to your question might be a big choppy, but I'm practicing getting this right and please bear with me. Right now I have to re-type your comments. Can you or anyone give some advice here?

So, your question was how do I know that knowledge makes me more 'in the moment' and does that mean that without it am I 'less in the moment.'

I have found, through much trial and error, not because I was ever very good at figuring any of this out, that I tend to miss out on a lot life has to offer 'in the moment' if my consciousness is somewhere else. Knowledge helps me focus my consciousness in the moment I'm in. And since this moment is all I've got, I find that it life takes on a quality it never had before I practiced knowledge. As Martha Stewart would say, 'it's a good thing.'

Yes, without it, or when I don't practice it, I am less 'in the moment.' That's true. You don't think so, and you are entitled to your opinion. I can only speak for myself. I don't mean to sound elitist.
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Date: Sun, Mar 07, 1999 at 22:59:05 (EST)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: Doney
Subject: Being in the Moment
Message:
I agree with you.
I would welcome you, too, but I'm too much a new person here to do so.
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Date: Sun, Mar 07, 1999 at 23:06:17 (EST)
From: Doney
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Being in the Moment
Message:
Hi Denise:

Thanks for agreeing with me. I need more of that.

So just how 'new' are you?

Doney
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 10:06:39 (EST)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: Doney
Subject: Being in the Moment
Message:
Found out about the site about 3 weeks ago but have participated quite a bit in that time. Have been sitting out lately to get my head together.

You will need to learn who you find helpful and who to ignore. If you stay on a while, you'll see what I mean. There are some really good folks here and some that just need therapy and Prozac.

Satchitanand,

Denise
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 11:30:16 (EST)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: some of them need....
Message:
Haldol and Lithium too. You are right about the weeding...but there are wacko's on both sides of the argument....so look at the plant carefully to decipher it's weediness.
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 12:00:06 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Being in the Moment
Message:
Sorry Denise but I didn't like the prozac or therapy comment. Think that's a low blow. Usually you have so much class. Prozac because...you'd like to see us 'mellow out'? Hey, we are here to get and give support to one another. As Runamuck has said to shp you are a guest here.
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 12:19:59 (EST)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: I hope I did not offend you
Message:
too.

What I meant is at one time there was a really hostile premie posting. Having the tiniest bit of experience with schizophrenics and those with bipolar disorder I was pretty sure this was someone who had come of his meds as his posts really became characteristic of how a person with those diseases communicates.

Especially for a psychologist I sort of see your point. People who are depressed and need Prozac are not psychotic and what they say is not to be dismissed...aw...s/he is depressed. What I was saying is when you realize a poster is really likely severely mentally ill, and there have been a few, it is sort of like chasing your tail to try to converse with them.

Then again, conversing with cult members IS like chasing your tail...so it isn't always immediately apparent that it isn't just brainwashing that is making this person's thinking so erratic.
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 13:14:15 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: g's mom/Denise
Subject: I hope I did not offend you
Message:
No, you didn't offend me, g's mom. I guess I felt that Denise's comment was a low blow since many of us have been at very vulnerable places in our recovery fm Mand have needed therapy or pharmaceutical (sp) help at some point in our recovery. It sounded a bit callous to me when she said that, but I guess she was trying to help Doney get the lay of the land here, and there was a 'wink, wink don't take these people too seriously some of them are a bit nuts' quality to it. I can't explain it. I guess premies here need to feel some solidarity with other premies here, I can really understand how brave they are to post here!!

But you both are right that some real crazies do post here from time to time. If I overreacted, Denise, let's just say I really value this place and I get a little protective at times. I really have grown to respect you so it was just a small thing, I don't want to make an international incident out of it!!!
G's mom--that was quite a story about the mom making up the triplets' pregnancy and death--wow, that's really sicko. It reminds me of that disorder where moms make their kids sick so they (the moms) can get attention.

Helen
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Date: Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 02:27:50 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: I hope I did not offend you
Message:
Helen,

I also think that premies are desparate to post here, rather than brave. They can't have a dialogue or real intelligent discussion about meditation with Miragey, only instructions to be followed and bad poetry (ugh, what a vile chaser!).

It's another case of what a loss the BM is. He could establish a forum, but instead the only premie forum is webmastered by an exe (Sir David, I believe). I don't have the URL because it really doesn't interest me, and Gooma's great adventures on the internet are worse.

I wish the premies who post here would understand, this a service for them, but it doesn't primarily exist for them but for ourselves.

That's my take. The webmasters can speak for themselves. They are providing something that M with all his money and resources doesn't bother to.. in the same old style that he always has
shown. If it doesn't make him richer, why should he bother?
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Date: Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 12:30:34 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: I hope I did not offend you
Message:
Dear Run,
Hmmmm...well, I think it does take some bravery to post here knowing that you will be challenged. I do agree that's it's a little ironic when premies criticize us and then continue to hang around here a lot because it IS the only place they are ALLOWED to be critical of GM. But that's the price of being a more democratic website.
Run, this is off topic but I have eliminated wheat from my diet and I am having a lot less arthritis pain, less muscle & ligament pain. Alleluia!

Helen
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 12:41:39 (EST)
From: Doney
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Being in the Moment
Message:
Denise:

From what I've seen, the internet is full of all kinds of personalities. I can't imagine this site is any different. But thanks for the advice. I can see already that I may have to take some time to get my head together as well. I thought I had worked out all the stuff about Maharaji, but maybe I haven't. I'm new ti this internet stuff, but so far it's kind of fun.

Doney
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 13:20:57 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Being in the Moment
Message:
Denise, if you disagree with someone's post, then address the issue. Making comments to another premie about an unidentified ex-premie's mental health is inconsiderate, unhelpful, hypocritical and dishonest. If you think someone is out of line, tell them. If you think they need help, either tell them or try to help them get the help they need.
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 13:28:24 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Being in the Moment
Message:
I agree with Rick. If someone thinks someone here needs meds, therapy, is a neanderthal, crazy, whatever, please name names. Otherwise, everyone is tarred with the same broad brush and

IT MAKES ME PARANOID!

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Date: Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 21:55:37 (EST)
From: Cool Head Luke
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Being in the Moment makes me
Message:
wanna get naked, climb up on my roof, and sing!
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Date: Wed, Mar 10, 1999 at 10:33:39 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: understanding Prozac?
Message:
hi Denise - I have to agree with Helen - I am concerned that you posted that comment about people here needing Prozac. I know there's a common mis-conception that Prozac and the other SSRI (selective seretonin re-uptake inhibitors) anti-depressants are 'happy pills', or have a mode of action similar to, say, Valium, but it surprised me that a therapist would think that - the therapists that I know are well aware that that's not true.

As I'm sure you know, in some cases Prozac (and other similar drugs) do help people in agitated depressions to calm down and mellow out, but in other cases, these drugs help people to get in touch with and express the feelings that were stifled by their depression. Anger is one of these feelings, although there are lots of others.
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 10:14:13 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Doney
Subject: I disagree
Message:
About being in the moment: Why would focusing on your breath put you more in the moment than any other activity you're engaged in? What's so special about meditation that it has this mysterious power to put people more in the moment?

When you're meditating all you're really doing is straining your mind to fix it on one point, right? What if you get bored with that which IMHO any sane person would? Don't you start daydreaming to escape the boredom? I know I do.
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 10:32:11 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Jerry
Subject: I disagree
Message:
Dear Jerry,
Hi, I don't know why but meditation doesn't work for everyone. I have learned that reading here. For the people here that it does work for it seems we each have personalized the practice to suit ourselves. I only do the word and light as those are the 2 that effect me most. I think it is Sir David that does Light and Nectar.
When I meditate I do get a wonderful calming feeling. I don't take it any farther than that...to mean that it is 'god'. It is what it is and it helps me calm myself and I still do it while I am doing other things so I am not fighting my mind. I use my mind while I meditate and it doesn't seem to be any less effective that way. Also if I am sitting and doing light and my mind is particularly active I can just listen in and see what is stuck there or I can get up. I don't have to fight my mind down.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 11:26:45 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: I disagree
Message:
Robyn,

I know I'm a voice in the wilderness here on the value of meditation. Most other people, exers and premies alike, swear by it. I'm glad you have a practical, down to earth approach to meditation and hope you continue to be rewarded by it. I just keep posting my views about it because there might be some dope on the fence, who like me, keeps practicing this stuff in the hopes that one day it will manifest into the glory Big M says it will. Maybe hearing somebody confirm their beliefs that its bullshit (for them) will get them off the fence that much quicker. I hope so. It really is painful to keep coming back to something for another try only to be disappointed again and again.
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 13:14:06 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: I disagree
Message:
Jerry:

Meditation never did much for me either, so you aren't the only one. In fact, for me, it was more of a torture than any kind of pleasant experience, at least most of the time. But some people find it helps them. I think it just depends on your personality.

JW
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 13:23:08 (EST)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: meditation...
Message:
I thought it was a chore you had to do in the morning and at bedtime so you could go to bed not feeling guilty. I always fell asleep. Always was fighting sleep. And I always felt guilty because of that. Like I must be the only one who wasn't blissing out during meditation.

It took awhile after becoming an ex that I could lay down to sleep without feeling I had forgoten something or was cheating.

I hate admitting that.
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 18:31:04 (EST)
From: Diz
Email: None
To: g's mom, Doney
Subject: meditation...
Message:
Hi g's mom

Although I got a lot out of meditation, I can also definitely relate to the 'fighting sleep' thing. In the days when it was at least an hour in the morning and an hour at night, I found the nighttime sessions very difficult. I'm not a nighttime person, find it hard now to do any work that requires focussed energy after about 8pm. And yes, I too felt guilty about falling asleep. Remember once when I was pregnant. Of course, we went to satsang every night. Got home maybe 9.30, and I was always exhausted. I decided one time that if I fell asleep in meditation again, I'd jump out the window. Luckily, I fell asleep, so I didn't.

We weren't alone. One thing about ashrams was that you got to see how everyone else did it. Almost everyone fell asleep. Though it was considered very bad form. People who could stay awake got premie status points from it. It was always considered one's own fault if K wasn't fascinating enough to keep you awake. You just weren't concentrating enough - or surrendering enough - or letting go enough...

When MJ changed his instructions to meditating when you felt most awake, that was a real relief for me. Although when I had small children and was working full-on (to pay debts from festivals etc) it still involved getting up at 4.30am.

I once heard a premie mom ask an instructor what she should do if her baby cried while she was meditating. This was in the late 80s. The instructor just kept stressing that MJ said you should do an hour straight, no interruptions. She pushed the point. The instructor stood firm. That mom had two choices, which were not compatible - to care for her child, or to obey her Master. What a crazy trip. And so UNNECESSARY - why the hell couldn't she finish meditation later!!

To another point

Doney, I can kinda relate to what you're saying about touching base inside being a way to stay in the present. Don't think that' s quite party line, however. I'm not sure what the present line is, but for many years in the late 80s early 90s it was that meditation was the formal four techniques for at least 15 minutes each in strict order. Just 'being with the experience' at other times was OUT. For the 22 or 23 hours you weren't doing formal meditation, the idea was that you should LONG for it (and MJ, I guess). Not get into sunsets and flowers and all that worldly crap! Especially not with the assistance of informal meditation.

Funnily enough, me being such a stickler for following MJ's every dictate, I never took this one seriously. I had always appreciated the way that K was always available (as you said), and wasn't about to give it up. In fact, I couldn't have if I'd wanted to, it was just there - as Jerry described (hey Jerry, wasn't what you described an experience of K? I mention this because you've said so often you didn't have one). Maybe some people defined this 'informal' experience as something other than K. Seemed to me to be definitely linked. What's interesting is that that ability to feel the energy while going about daily life became, in 1987 or whenever the change happened, something other than 'by MJ's grace', since he specifically told us not to feel it. What was it, then?? How about - a natural feeling which human beings - well, maybe some human beings - can have? Where's the links to MJ? Mind you, I'm talking mostly to myself here, as I still suffer from intact linkages. But to be grateful to someone for something they've told you not to do? Bit crazy.

Hope that makes some sense.

Oh - I also wanted to respond to your response to my e-mail about criticism within the organisation. I'm not really 'out' in public about what happened to me. For a number of reasons, which may or may not be good. I'll e-mail you sometime soon.

Best wishes, g's mom and Doney

Diz
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 20:24:36 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Diz
Subject: meditation...
Message:
In fact, I couldn't have if I'd wanted to, it was just there - as Jerry described (hey Jerry, wasn't what you described an experience of K?

OK, Diz, if you agree that the experience of K, the 'light', the 'music', the energy, is just 'there', than I think its safe to assume that you and I have 'realized' K in the same manner. But meditation doesn't preclude being 'there', does it? So why bother?

What's interesting is that that ability to feel the energy while going about daily life became, in 1987 or whenever the change happened, something other than 'by MJ's grace', since he specifically told us not to feel it. What was it, then?? How about - a natural feeling which human beings - well, maybe some human beings - can have? Where's the links to MJ? Mind you, I'm talking mostly to myself here, as I still suffer from intact linkages. But to be grateful to someone for something they've told you not to do? Bit crazy.

Hope that makes some sense.


Makes all the sense in the world to me, Diz. Your posts usually do. What puzzles me is if you know the energy of life is a given without M's assistance I would think you'd get bored meditating the same as I do. Unless you just like sitting bathing in that energy for a spell, then I understand. Me? I've gotta be up and about doing something. I still do appreciate the feeling of that energy though. Its just that if meditating isn't a requirement to experience it, I'm not going to waste my time doing something that's not required.
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Date: Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 06:37:54 (EST)
From: Diz
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: meditation...
Message:
Hi Jerry

If the truth be known, I'm pretty into getting up and doing things, too. I don't meditate formally so much as I used to.

Some of this is about semantics, I suspect. When I say 'meditation', I don't just mean sitting around under a (metaphorical) blanket. I was counting the feeling the energy while doing part as meditation. I think.

Anyway, who cares. I would like to feel it when I want to, where I want to, without feeling constrained by either guilt about not 'practicing' or angst about how 'that feeling' belongs to MJ. Much of what I write about meditation/K is me trying to sort myself out.

Good to hear from you, Jerry. Hope all is well with you.

Diz
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Date: Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 14:31:13 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Diz
Subject: meditation...
Message:
Hi Diz! You said:
'What's interesting is that that ability to feel the energy while
going about daily life became, in 1987 or whenever the change happened, something other than 'by MJ's grace', since he specifically told us not to feel it.'

He specifically told you not to feel what? Your breath? The energy?

I find this quite incredible.

The only value to meditation that I still experience is just my automatically doing it (following my breath - tongue back) throughout the day. I have totally lost touch with the point of formal meditation. There are other things I want to do with my life than sit down and feel ... what? peace? I'm already a peaceful person. Yeah, it does feel good. I agree, but so what? Other things also feel good, and to me they are more interesting.
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Date: Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 20:10:56 (EST)
From: Diz
Email: None
To: John
Subject: meditation...
Message:
Hey John

The idea was that you could feel the energy (behind your breath, that's always the way I understood it), but ONLY in formal meditation. 15 minutes of that, and 15 each of light, sound and nectar (or more if you wanted, but ONLY if you did an equal amount of time on EACH technique - you got that!). Only they weren't called light, sound, etc., they got numbers: technique number 1, 2, 3 and 4. Can't remember which was which.

As to the second part of your post, you won't get any arguments out of me as to why you should meditate rather than do other things. Mostly I do other things too - I don't meditate much nowadays. Though I still feel drawn to it sometimes, like to have a good wallow (sp?). Each to his/her own.

Love

Diz
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Date: Wed, Mar 10, 1999 at 09:43:35 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Diz
Subject: meditation...
Message:
So, you must have been around when he made this announcement.
Was it something he said in one of his talks, or did he announce it through a spokesperson?
Were there questions? I mean there must have been questions. Do you remember anyone asking questions about this?
I know I had heard that he no longer had the commandment to constantly meditate.
I don't know why I find this so interesting. I guess because it illustrates the cult-ness of the group. The leader erases the #1 commandment, and everyone is just supposed to accept it.
And the members of the group don't see anything unusual about this? Yikes!
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Date: Thurs, Mar 11, 1999 at 06:27:43 (EST)
From: Diz
Email: None
To: John
Subject: No snacking, just longing
Message:
Hi John

Yeah, I must have been around. Don't remember it very clearly though. Which I guess just proves your point about the cultish nature of premies' - of MY - acceptance.

It was quite a while ago. Well back in the 80s. Certainly before 1987, quite possibly much earlier. Other exes who were still involved then might remember better - you could start a thread if you wanted to pick people's brains. Zac, Gail, Barney - where are you?

I can't remember whether the change first arrived through an instructor or not. I can remember going to one instructor-led Knowledge Review where there were major changes to the way we were to meditate, but I'm not sure if this was IT. I remember something about all the techniques now being about FEELING.

What I am sure about is that MJ himself re-inforced these instructions over and over, for years - from whenever it happened to when I left, in 1995. He did many Knowledge Reviews. I went to several.

I do remember some questions. In particular, I remember a Knowledge Review in which a premie talked at length about how he really liked to meditate/be with the feeling during the day - like on a break from working. This person was very sincere - a working-class, young guy. The review was with an instructor, not MJ. The basic response was 'MJ says not to do it, so don't do it.' I think I also remember a similar question to MJ, and in the end I think he said 'well, if something feels good, you might as well do it' - with the implication however that that wasn't what it was all about.

Would be interesting to see what people understood MJ's reasons to be, for making the 'no snacking' rule. I thought it was partly to stop us feeling guilty if we didn't 'constantly meditate.' Also because MJ thought people were skipping formal ('real') meditation on the excuse that they could just do it as they went about other things. I think this was a stated reason. I can also remember him talking about being at the end of the runway about to take off in his plane, and how he needed to attend to the task at hand rather than to meditate. Seemed a bit strange to me, as I did - and still do - find concentration on task and awareness of Holy Name or sound quite compatible. But I liked that worldly doings were actually getting a bit of a thumbs up!

What I found really strange was the retention of the idea that experiencing K was what life was about - given that for 95% of the time you would NOT be experiencing K. People did ask what they should do instead of remembering Holy Name. That's when MJ said that you should spend the non-formal-meditation time LONGING. 'Longing' was a big deal - MJ said a lot about it for a number of years.

When I look back, I think what I did with that instruction was to use it to dig a big hole in my life. Which I then needed MJ to fill. I think that's what he was asking us, by telling us we needed to 'long' for K and him, to 'feel that thirst' (that was the other way he put it). So every time I felt a little bit of dissatisfaction with life, or a little bit down, or tired, or whatever, I'd see that as my NEED for MJ, and I'd work on MAGNIFYING it. So my neediness, and dissatisfaction, and dependence on K and MJ, increased. Like a drug craving.

Another subtle bit of the trip which keeps people locked in. And which I'm glad is at an end for me.

Love

Diz
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Date: Thurs, Mar 11, 1999 at 11:11:53 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Diz
Subject: No snacking, just longing
Message:
This reminds me of breast feeding discussions. Do you space the feedings every 3 hours, or do you let the baby nosh all day?. I mean, oy vey, whatever happened to common sense. If the baby's hungry, let him or her eat!!

I remember mothers going about it all so seriously. Me, I just let the baby eat all day long if she felt like it. So what if I felt like Bessie the Cow for 10 months

Just messin with ya, Diz
Love ya,
Helen
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 15:17:05 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Jerry
Subject: I disagree
Message:
Dear Jerry,
I know that lots of people, ex's also have had no experience with meditation. I can think of 2 right off hand and I see JW has posted right below, he is one I can think of. Sorry if I made you feel like I was disregarding your experience or lack there of, that was not my intent.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 19:04:01 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: No problem, Robyn
Message:
I didn't feel slighted at all, Robyn. I know that was not your intent. The main problem I have with meditation is how we were encouraged to strive for so much more than what it actually delivers. I used meditation for one purpose only... God realization. I had no interest in it for anything else. Now I don't even believe in God anymore so obviously meditation serves no purpose for me whatsoever. As for relaxation and finding focus, I'm glad you get that out of meditating, I really am. It's just not my way. It's certainly not a means for getting horny, I'll tell you that. Ain't that a kicker, eh? What really surprised me was all the people who came forward and said 'yeah, me too, me too!' Amazing group of people we have on this forum, don't you think?
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Date: Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 16:23:13 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Jerry
Subject: No problem, Robyn
Message:
Dear Jerry,
Glad you weren't upset. :) I never got horny meditating on K but in this meditation group I am in now..... :).
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 13:08:10 (EST)
From: Doney
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: I disagree
Message:
About being in the moment: Why would focusing on your breath put you more in the moment than any other activity you're engaged in?

I find that meditation centers me. It slows my brain down, which, in my case, tends to race pretty fast sometimes. When it's racing, I tend to miss the simple pleasures of life. I find when I practice, I race less, and feel a simplicity that I like.

What's so special about meditation that it has this mysterious power to put people more in the moment?

I can't say for sure it really is all that special. Other things might do much the same thing. But for me knowledge is more practical, because I can do it wherever I am. It doesn't require equipment, and it isn't a drug that has side effects.

What if you get bored with that which IMHO any sane person would? Don't you start daydreaming to escape the boredom?

I don't get bored with the experience. But I do get bored trying to have the experience sometimes and then I do start daydreaming, etc., just like you said. In my opinion that's because I'm trying, or trying too hard. I have to change my mindset that always wants to conquer and accomplish things. This isn't something you can approach that way.
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 14:21:49 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Doney
Subject: I disagree
Message:
Doney: Welcome to the forum. Ok, based upon your response to Jerry's question may I ask another?

What makes you think that 'slowing your brain down' has anything to do with 'being in the moment?' It would seem that 'slowing down' fast action (as it were) would put you less in the moment than trying 'to keep up with the action.' Paying close attention to an act (whatever it is) would seem more likely to keep you 'in the moment.' In this regard, maybe meditation does have some effect, but I think concentration on ANYTHING would have the same 'in the moment' effect.
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 14:38:49 (EST)
From: Doney
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: I disagree
Message:
What makes you think that 'slowing your brain down' has anything to do with 'being in the moment?' It would seem that 'slowing down' fast action (as it were) would put you less in the moment than trying 'to keep up with the action.'

Maybe 'slowing the brain down' isn't the correct term. But that's what it feels like to me. Sometimes there are a million things going through my head. I might be looking at a sunset but thinking about my finances, or even thinking about the sunset. I think knowledge just helps me experience the sunset without the distraction of thinking about it or other things. It's not like my mind is vacant; actually it feels pretty filled up.

Paying close attention to an act (whatever it is) would seem more likely to keep you 'in the moment.' In this regard, maybe meditation does have some effect, but I think concentration on ANYTHING would have the same 'in the moment' effect.

Concentration does have some of that effect and I think that's why concentration can be a satisfying experience. But concentration on things outside of myself are limited and they are more complicated. You go from one thing to the next, and they have all kinds of aspects to them, while knowledge is a constant and very simple. Also, I can't describe it exactly, but the quality of the concentration is different -- again, it's simpler.
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 15:24:52 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Doney
Subject: Thanks, Doney
Message:
Doney: Thanks for the answer. I disagree concerning the so-called limitations of the 'outside' world. Personally, I see the 'internal' as being very limited, while the outside has seemingly infinite variety of form on which to concentrate. I understand what you are saying, but I always found meditation (K-type) to be always 'the same,' rather boring. Ok, ok, I wanted liberation and to merge with the light that is brighter than 10 million suns. I saw that light prior to K, but never after.... strange, eh? Anyway, I do understand, but I think the premise is wrong and based upon some old hindu dogma that states that anything 'inside' is infinite while that which is 'outside' is SO limited. I see it exactly 180 degrees.
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 15:42:50 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Mike
Subject: Thanks, Doney
Message:
Dear Mike again, :)
I think both inner and outer can be infinite, depends on your awe and wonder at which ever, not just meditation inside which I did see develop over the time I really put time into meditation but also just science stuff, since I know you get off on that! :) right down to the electrons and protons etc and how it all goes together to make up a being. Pretty facinating stuff and of course the outer world has a plethora of stimulus and levels of wonder also.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 16:47:15 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Thanks, Robyn
Message:
Robyn: I answered this and your other post below. No sense duplicating.... :-)

You are right, I get off on the science stuff.... BUT, I really do love a walk in the woods without any particular thoughts flowing thru my head. I love to smell the ponderosa pines and listen to their song when the wind is blowing. I love to see the reflection of a beautiful snow covered mountain in a still, clear blue lake and to see the ripples of water across a time-worn creek rock.

I even enjoy letting my DNA run wild and hunt for my dinner (only when in-season, of course). I feel very close to nature when I do this, believe it or not. I won't go into alot of detail here because it is WAY off topic and people have such strong opinions about it. But I will say that it is a very powerful and profound experience (the hunt itself, not necessarily the 'end'). If you are interested in how or why I'll email you, otherwise I'll let that subject drop.... I just wanted to let you know that there are lots of REAL things that trip my trigger, so to speak. Not all of them are based solely on my love of science.

Anyway, that's about it (in addition to my post to you below). :-)
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 15:55:07 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Doney
Subject: I disagree
Message:
Doney,

Thanks for your direct and honest answers. It sounds like you use meditation because it frees you from the complexities of the mind. I know I practiced the techniques habitually for years for this reason. It comforted me that the various phenomena I experienced while meditating were ever present. Going to work in the morning on the train I would meditate regularly on the 'light' and throughout the day I would frequently stop and listen to the 'music'. It was a comfort to know that both were always there, a default of life that I could always count on in this ever changing and confusing world. Without this I was frightened that my mind would just take over and I would get swamped by its noise and confusion. Now I realize that this is just a myth perpetuated by M that has no bearing in reality. Yes, I do get confused but no I don't get swamped by that confusion if I don't duck for cover into the world of the techniques. As long as my mind is healthy and not swimming in some paranoid inducing drug or floating in too much alcohol IT IS MY FRIEND. Now I use my mind to help me understand life rather than writing it off as being incapable of such. I'm learning to befriend my mind and use it to its full potential rather than saying it is beyond the mind's scope to deal with the loftier goals of the human soul. Mind is a good thing. I love it. Its my best friend so long as I treat it right.
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 15:37:40 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Mike
Subject: I disagree
Message:
Dear Mike,
I can't remember if you said you had any good meditational experiences or not but I can relate to what Doney says about slowing down and missing the small stuff. Through really starting to use meditation again I am changing this but I was to the point that I was ALWAYS hurrying to the point of a pre ulser condition. I couldn't stop it just because I knew it was bad for me but meditation has stopped it. I still have a list of things to do that I do not get to but now I am not a physical and mental wreck stressing out about it all the time. I don't know about this 'in the moment' stuff, I don't think of it that way except that by not being in a hurry all the time I can appreciate the small things a lot more, like conversations, visiting, nature, etc.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 16:23:23 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: I disagree
Message:
Robyn: I saw both of your posts to me, so I'll answer them here!

Really, I have nothing against meditation unless those that are meditating are trying to do something 'unnatural,' like kill the mind. The mind isn't the enemy, it just needs to be channeled into a fruitful endeavor. In other words, we must put our ability to think to good use. If we do that, we are healthy (IMHO). Anyway, to answer your question concerning my experiences with meditation: YES, I have experienced much in meditation, but NONE of it thru strict K-type meditation. Most was experienced while doing mantras/yantras. I think you may remember that I had several really powerful, knock-down, in your face (pardon the metaphors) blinding clear-light experiences with much vibrating (as it were). To call them 'glorious' would be an incredible understatement. They were ALL experiences that I had while out in a natural setting far from any city and most of mankind. Once I, ahem, 'received' K they never happened again. Sounds like K was a little counter-productive, doesn't it? he he he :-)

My point about concentration/meditation is that if you concentrate or meditate on ANYTHING, you will have the same result. I think if you 'want to be in the moment,' then you MUST 'be in the moment' (in other words, be concentrating on something that is here and now and real). If you are 'imagining' an internal experience, then you definitely are in fantasy land and not 'the moment' (whatever that really is). A safe way to ensure that you are really meditating on a REAL thing is to meditate on a REAL thing (e.g. flower, water, fire, stars, whatever). I don't know if I'm making myself clear here, so if it didn't come across REALLY simple, then I'm probably not expressing myself correctly. :-) Wouldn't be the first time.
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 17:24:50 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Mike
Subject: Mike
Message:
Dear Mike,
I think I understand what you said here, don't have time to tell you what I think it said, on to my 2nd water aerobics class today, I love being in the water.
I did want to tell you though that I email someone who has a natural meditational experience while in nature. He was asking my about the K techniques and I told him forget it. If I had a natural gift of meditation like that I would never have bothered with K. Sorry you upset the apple cart with receiving K, damn.
Also Mike, I'd love to hear from you about your other post above, the off topic hunting thing. :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Mar 10, 1999 at 22:18:52 (EST)
From: Red
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: I disagree
Message:
Hello Robyn,
trying to live in the moment,to live with awareness,allows me to see the world a different way.I was driving up country one night and starting eating a banana with awareness.It me a 100 miles to eat that banana and it was the best eating experience of my life.I never knew what a banana really tasted like before that.Come to think about it,that was the most enjoyable 100 miles I ever drove.Life's one big banana.:)
Cool Bananas
Red
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 15:45:58 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: the power that is
Message:
>Why would focusing on your breath put you more in the moment than any other activity you're engaged in? What's so special about meditation that it has this mysterious power to put people more in the moment?

Some things just work.

Have you ever heard someone say 'stop and take a deep breath'?

Why does some music make people feel good?
But it does!

CD
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 17:11:09 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: puffing on the firestick
Message:
Millions of cigarette smokers probably like feeling thier
breath.
At least the Marlboro man is easy on the customers.
And even he is being called on the carpet to be responsible
for the consequences of his actions.
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 17:16:05 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: what is your definition of
Message:
IS?
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 20:47:43 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: what is your definition of
Message:
>IS?

it is it
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 19:40:58 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: the power that is
Message:
Have you ever heard someone say 'stop and take a deep breath'?

Yes, I've also heard people say 'count to ten'. But when people say these things its not to realize the 'gift' of life. Its just to step back and relax before you lose control. But Maharaji has given the breath a mystical, holy air which I think knocks it out of perspective what the breath really is. The breath's purpose is to supply oxygen to our cells and remove carbon dioxide.

When the breath was first used as a means of heightening awareness it was done so by ancient mystics that didn't have the knowledge of evolution and anatomy that we now do. It's understandable that they would see the breath and consciousness as having mystical properties. Today, there's no reason to continue viewing them as such. There's a wealth of evidence that challenges these beliefs. I think its ignorant to disregard that evidence.

If focusing on the breath makes you feel good, fine. I hope it continues to do so. But don't feed me the philosopy that you're learning more and more about the gift of life because of it. That's absolute nonsense.
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 20:45:58 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: the power that is
Message:
>When the breath was first used as a means of heightening awareness it was done so by ancient mystics that didn't have the knowledge of evolution and anatomy that we now do.

OK, forget the breath.
Just get quiet enough to experience your own self inside.
Crazy?
You think the docs really know where our life resides?
Think again.

>But don't feed me the philosopy that you're learning more and more about the gift of life because of it.

The truth is still the same. A small seed is a miracle out of which can come a large tree. Or a big pot plant.
Being humble can open up a vision to a world of wonder.

CD
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 22:46:13 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: the power that is
Message:
Just get quiet enough to experience your own self inside.

What I experience inside is what I feel. I wouldn't call my feelings the totality of who I am. I also think, see, hear, touch, etc... Aren't these experiences a part of who I am also? I don't agree with Maharaji's contention that the true self is what you feel deep inside you. That's just ONE phenomena of consciousness, not the totality of it. In fact if I were to identify with any one aspect of me it would be my consciousness, not what I feel. It would be that aspect of me that simply observes. Once that's gone so is everything else. So yeah, 'I' am my awareness. I don't need to meditate to be aware. I also don't need Maharaji telling me I'm aware to realize it. Neither do you.

A small seed is a miracle out of which can come a large tree. Or a big pot plant.

Calling a small seed a miracle is rooted in ignorance. If you really want to know what a small seed is, there are scientists who have dedicated their lives to uncovering the seed's mysteries. I'd check out what they have to say about it before I start calling it a miracle. Educate yourself. Learn more and more. You might find it quite enjoyable. I know you're not an idiot because of your MCSE (you are one, right?). You read and studied and fiddled and diddled a lot to know what you do about computers. Would you call what makes a computer work a miracle? Of course not. You're more educated than that. But because you aren't educated about what makes a seed grow, you call it a miracle. That's ignorance.

Being humble can open up a vision to a world of wonder.

Yes, humility is a wise man's virtue. But it's also wise to know who to be humble before. Sorry, CD, but I don't think that's Maharaji.
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Date: Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 09:56:51 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: might I add
Message:
Jerry: That seeds can't be a miracle anyway because M says they're DEAD (not dormant, he said dead)! Nothing miraculous about death.... he he he :-)
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Date: Wed, Mar 10, 1999 at 21:28:00 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: learn from a seed
Message:
>Educate yourself. Learn more and more. You might find it quite enjoyable. I know you're not an idiot because of your MCSE (you are one, right?).

I spent a couple years at University of California San Diego studying genetics, organic chemistry and biochem subjects.
Yes, we did have good enough equipment in the lab to check out genes. As you probably know I spent a total of 7 years there including a couple in grad school in systems engineering (optimal control, hilbert space and estimation and optimization theory).

I agree with you that it is worthwhile to learn more.
It is also important to be aware of fundamental limits.

I currently have lots of books on order from Amazon.com and Bookpool.com Here are a few computer ones that arrived the other day:
a) Corey,Michael+Abbey,Michael - SQL Server 7 Data
Warehousing 12-98,MH
ISBN: 0072119217
b) Otey,Michael+Conte,Paul - SQL Server 7: Developer's
Guide 98,OS
ISBN: 0078825482
c) Oppenheimer,Priscilla - Top Down Network Design
12-98,CI
ISBN: 1578700698
d) Microsoft OLE DB 2.0 Programmer's Reference and Data
Access SDK 10-98,MSP
ISBN: 0735605904
e) Sportack,Mark - IP Routing Fundamentals 2-99,CI
ISBN: 157870071x
a) Jennings,Roger - Roger Jennings' Database
Developer's Guide With Visual Basic 6 1-99,S
ISBN: 0672310635
b) Professional ADO RDS Programming with ASP 2-99,WR
ISBN: 1861001649
c) McManus,Jeffrey - Jeffrey McManus' Database Access
With Visual Basic 6 1-99,S
ISBN: 0672314223
a) Evans,Nicholas+Miller,Ken+Spencer,Ken - Programming
Microsoft Visual Interdev 6 2-99,MSP
ISBN: 1572318147
b) Sturm,Jake - Visual Basic 6 UML Design and
Development 2-99,WR
ISBN: 1861002513
c) Kosiur - Virtual Private Networks 9-98,W
ISBN: 0471295264
d) Buhr - An Introduction to Real Time Systems: From Design
to Networking with C/C++ 9-98,PH
ISBN: 0136060706

>Calling a small seed a miracle is rooted in ignorance.

Not recognizing the miracle of a small seed is ignorance.

>there are scientists who have dedicated their lives to uncovering the seed's mysteries.

They most likely consider the mysteries of seeds to be miracles.

Regards,
CD
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Date: Thurs, Mar 11, 1999 at 04:16:01 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: learn from a seed
Message:
What, did you forget to send in the card that says
'don't send me this months selection'?

How do you fit in a beer in edgewise?

That's too big a list to memorize, you use it for reference
after reading through revelent chapters?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 11, 1999 at 10:11:37 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: learn from a seed
Message:
CD,

I sincerely doubt horticulturists and botanists have concluded that a seed is a miracle. They have a much more in depth undersanding than that. From the development of a seeed to disemmination to germination, volumes have been written on this process. Do you know anything about this? If you don't, don't you think its a little outlandish to call the process a miracle? Heck, calling anything a miracle is outlandish. Anytime somebody calls something a miracle all they're really saying is 'I DON'T KNOW'. The subject is beyond them. There's no such thing as miracles. There's just the known and the unknown. Calling something a miracle because you don't understand it is arrogant and ignorant.
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 10:22:44 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Doney
Subject: Hello
Message:
Dear Doney,
What is the connection to your meditation and M? There are quite a few of us ex's that still meditate. It is an ability that humans have and it doesn't work for all of us but enough to realize that you don't need M to benifit from the meditation.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Mar 07, 1999 at 21:08:43 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Doney
Subject: Hello
Message:
Dear Doney,
It always surprizes me that anyone could stay with the organization for so long especially if you were a way for a few years but there are others who will take you down that road I am sure...
I live in dairy country and just thought I'd let you know that your Gateway box looks like a Holstien and that a Jersey cow is brown and white. I knew there was a reason I've been hiding up in the hills for so long. :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Mar 07, 1999 at 22:20:52 (EST)
From: Doney
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Hello
Message:
Robyn:

Thanks for the info on the cows and thanks for the Love. I can't hide the fact that I am a city boy, born and raised in NYC, although I haven't lived there in 15 years. But now that you mention it, I really did know that Jersey cows are kind of a fawn color.

It also amazes me that I have anything to do with Maharaji after all these years, but I haven't had much to do with the 'organization' for a very long time. And there were a good 5 or 6 years when I had nothing to do with either Maharaji or the organization.

Doney
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 10:39:02 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Doney
Subject: Hello
Message:
Dear Doney,
I am from New Jersey, near NYC, Led Zepplin at Madison Square Garden in 1971. I use to enjoy the city but I have been away for to long, I guess I am becoming a country bumpkin! :)
Please see my post to Jerry, subject something like 'I disagree'.
We've been around about why I write love, as one person found it problematic, turns out I started before I knew how people wrote on the net. Just good Catholic training, that is an oxymoron isn't it? :) Anyway through that discussion I found how many people really liked that I write it so I continue.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Mar 07, 1999 at 22:30:34 (EST)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: Doney
Subject: Hello Doney
Message:
Hello. Funny you think it would be better if we were still there. I am not so sure. I really liked that caption on JM's picture! Hey I bet the place would have a better sense of humor with these ex's...though I suspect none of us were as humourous in our premie days.

All kidding aside I am very serious in my feelings that it is a very destructive cult still. Despite that I welcome your post and and its friendly tone. I wish you well.
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Date: Sun, Mar 07, 1999 at 22:45:54 (EST)
From: Doney
Email: None
To: g's mom
Subject: Hello Doney
Message:
Hi mom:

Is 'g' (either your son or daughter)also around?

I really do think things would be better if more premies were outspoken on the way Maharaji's organization is run, which is kind of a mess, if you ask me. I think that's because it doesn't have any checks and balances (except when it runs out of money) because most of people with better ideas have moved on. I'm sure I could solve everything, but nobody ever asks me. Wonder why?

Seriously, what do you think is so destructive? I understand the disappointment of the ashram premies that I've read (been there myself) but nowadays, as far as I know, no one is asked to give up anything. So where is the harm?
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Date: Sun, Mar 07, 1999 at 23:27:28 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Doney
Subject: Hello Doney
Message:
Stick around, you'll see. You seriously don't find any fault with Maharaji? The reason you would like all of us to be premies again is.....(please complete the sentence and you will see why M is destructive)

I'm too tired for a long post to you, but I'll catch up with you later
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Date: Sun, Mar 07, 1999 at 23:33:19 (EST)
From: Doney
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Hello Doney
Message:
No, you got me wrong. I find plenty of fault with Maharaji. He isn't at all what I would want him to be. But which Maharaji are you talking about? The one in the 70s, the 80s, or the 90s? He's really changed in all but one respect. He still talks about knowledge and the experience you can have when you practice it. Everything else has changed quite a lot -- some good and some bad from my perspective.

I didn't say I want you to become premies again. I said part of the reason that M's organization kind of drifts is because the more critical people left. There aren't many around, or so it seems.

Helen, hope you get some rest. Sweet dreams.
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 07:19:30 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Doney
Subject: Hello Doney
Message:
Well, critical people around M either self-destruct or get wise and leave, cause they have no place to air their views.

There is so much wrong with M that the fact that he has a consistent message-- 'practice knowledge' --doesn't make up for the wrong he's done in my book.

You seem like a nice person though
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Date: Sun, Mar 07, 1999 at 23:42:24 (EST)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: Doney
Subject: Hello Doney
Message:
g is in college.

What do I think is destructive now? Since I am not around now I cannot speak to current practices. What I can say is though certainly your post does not have my cult member antennae on alert, many many premies who post here do not sound as if they are not really thinking for themselves anymore than we did in the seventies. Certainly Rawat's website is bizarre in the extreme and has those cult antennae on high alert.

Here is one example. He doesn't address all the crap we went through in the seventies except to allude to having evolved. 'evolved'. That is simply not good enough. He shows no sign of admitting that harm was done in his name and that he himself has done harm. He never said, 'hey guys, you know how I said I was Lord of the Univierse, you know how you sang Arti to me and said I was the superior power in person...well, ah em, I am not. I'm just a guy as imperfect as any human. Ummmm...sorry'. Reasonable people just cannot say pretend this all away. He says on his website 'he never wanted to be a leader or figurehead'. Doney, have you seen how premies defend this statement? It is simply ludicrous. They get out dictionaries and define'leader' and 'figurehead' and twist the words like pretzels. It is just like Clinton and the meaning of the word is. I mean, Rawat is lying or a really deluded fool, and foolish to think he can fool someone who is no longer blinded by the double binds of his cult with an inane statement such as this to cover up his despicable bizarre past.

He can't say, that was then this is now because he never dealt with THEN.

Plus, from what I see, it really IS still a cult. Just a kinder gentler cult, with the wierder things edited out. It may be less destructive now, but in a way more insidious, with the bizarre eastern overtones and the more clearcut Guru worship gone, it may be harder to realize you really have lost a part of yourself to the Guru ( oops....ahem, well, not figurehead, not leader, what is he now..a teacher? master?)

Gail was around recently and she has got her head on straight, maybe you might want to pose your question to her.
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Date: Sun, Mar 07, 1999 at 23:50:50 (EST)
From: Doney
Email: None
To: g's mom
Subject: one more thing...
Message:
I am intrigued by the idea that the organization would be better if more people who were critical of it were involved. Interesting. As I recall it was never a democracy. The power filtered down not up. It was not as if we got votes as to whether to chuck Arti and the Darshan line. Rawat has never been accountable to anyone. Is he now. I mean, can the premies vote him out? Is there a mechanism to address grievances?

I can recall that from time to time he took advice from the higher up big wigs. Read Bob Mishlers interview obviously Rawat was getting advice from him for awhile. But he never has had any obligation to listen to any critic. I mean, if he idi not like what they had to say he could easily arrange to never hear from them again. Most of us can't insulate ourselves that way.

But most of us are not cult leaders either. The power was never a two way street.
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Date: Sun, Mar 07, 1999 at 23:52:24 (EST)
From: Dyslexic G's mom
Email: None
To: Doney
Subject: Above was from G's mom TOO Don
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 05:17:19 (EST)
From: Diz
Email: None
To: Doney
Subject: Surely NOT a democracy
Message:
Hi Doney, and welcome from me too.

I think you may have just answered your own question.

I was around till about 4 years ago, did a 20-year stint as a premie before that. The authoritarian nature of the trip was one of the big reasons I left.

As to the lack of critical thinking in the organisation, the question begged by your comment is: WHY did the people who thought critically, leave? I for one tried for several years to raise issues within the organisation - and with MJ, through letters and questions. I did this very tentatively, and in a manner that acknowledged that K was good stuff. No way was I aggressive - I'm a wimp about conflict. I WAS hurting - won't go into why here - so I did come across with some emotion.

Basically, no one wanted to know. PARTICULARLY Maharaji. He's more than happy to have people tell him how fantastic he is. And to have people invite him to visit. But criticism??? Even QUESTIONS are mostly too much!

I don't think this is healthy. I don't think it is adult. I don't think it's what the world needs.

Best wishes, Doney.

Love, Diz

(I'm not saying that premies can't make comments on matters such as what colour the walls in the EV office should be - although if MJ says they should be white, I bet there's not much room for debate if someone suggests they'd be better blue. But substantive issues - such as whether MJ should apologise for making a mistake about being the LOTU, or whether K should be pushed as the most important thing in life and what consequences that may have, or whether MJ is really essential to the experience of K - aren't on the agenda for discussion.)
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 05:27:13 (EST)
From: Dyslexic Diz
Email: None
To: g's mom, Doney
Subject: Duh
Message:
Sorry, didn't read your next line, g's mom.

Doney, hope my response to you still makes sense.
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 12:51:33 (EST)
From: Doney
Email: None
To: Diz
Subject: Surely NOT a democracy
Message:
Diz:

Thanks for your response. I find that when people relay their personal experiences, that's the most helpful. I have also read a few of your posts in the archives, and I wondered about what, speficially, was the problem you had with the organization. I'd like to know if your problems were similar to mine. For example, you said:

I for one tried for several years to raise issues within the organisation - and with MJ, through letters and questions. I did this very tentatively, and in a manner that acknowledged that K was good stuff. No way was I aggressive - I'm a wimp about conflict. I WAS hurting - won't go into why here - so I did come across with some emotion.

What were the issues that concerned you? I'm sure they were more significant than the kind of food served at programs or the color or the carpeting at video events. Can you be more specific. This might really help me deal with all this.

And regarding the 'agenda for discussion,' this is actually part of my problem. There is no 'agenda fod discussion.' There isn't any discussion, at least for the majority of premies.
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 13:34:25 (EST)
From: Doney
Email: None
To: g's mom
Subject: Hello Doney
Message:
g's mom:

Here is one example. He doesn't address all the crap we went through in the seventies except to allude to having evolved. 'evolved'. That is simply not good enough. He shows no sign of admitting that harm was done in his name and that he himself has done harm.

I wouldn't say it was all 'crap,' but this is the main reason I was so disappointed in Maharaji and left in the 80s. But he did try to address the changes. He had these programs where he explained about getting rid of the Indian traditions, the ashrams, and that he didn't want to be worshipped. But he didn't do a very good job of it and he didn't admit any mistakes. A lot of premies left around this time.

Then, he started having these programs that were kind of like dinner parties. He invited all the premies. For me, it was weird. I think he did all this to try to get the premies to see him as more human, but for me, it just distracted from knowledge, which he wasn't even talking about, and knowledge was the reason I showed up in the first place. I left for about 5 years, and then, when I returned, Maharaji was talking about knowledge again.

I think Maharaji has had such a weird life that he doesn't know how to address his mistakes, or even to talk about anything other than knowledge. That's all he's ever done. I think in the beginning he just did what Shri Hans did and maybe he felt that admitting any error was an insult to his father, who he believes his guiding him. I'm not sure, but that's what I think. I think you can even argue that Maharaji was bumbling or incompetent in his early years, but I've seen no evidence that he set out to hurt people or take advantage of them.

I also agree about the 'leader' and 'figurehead' statements because I was around in the 70s and saw what was going on. I think it's true he never wanted to be a 'figurehead' because he wants to be directly involved in the process of disseminating knowledge. But I don't know why he used that word, because I have never heard of anyone accusing him of being a figurehead. It's kind of a straw-man argument and could be seen as evasive. Same for the 'leader' statement. Maybe he never wanted to be one, but he certainly was one. It might be that the website causes more confusion among the premies, but I'm not sure.

I see the website as like most of the other publications his organization puts out. They are all style and no substance and I would rather they just didn't produce them.

So, I guess I can agree with some of what you say, but I still don't see this as destructive to people now.
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 14:06:41 (EST)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: Doney
Subject: Have you read AJW's journey?
Message:
You would like it. He adresses the subject of whether Rawat is to blame or not. I do not agree with him, he says he never had a chance being raised to be Satguru and all...I think he had a chance and chose 'the dark side' out of greed, fear of change and not being able to deal with idea of losing the power he has had over others all his life.

The dinner parties kind of prove my point as does the year 1976 and the changes that happened then. Even his website and non denial denials do...there is a conciousness of guilt in these changes. I really think, based upon admittedly very distant info having never been an insider, that Rawat from time to time is plagued with guilt about all of this. From time to time there is evidence he is toying with coming clean. But until and unless he answers questions directly about his past and his present and makes himself accountable in the ways mere mortals are accountable he is still a cult leader. He can remove the trappings but as long as the power flows one way...down from him... it is still a cult.

But it is a fascinating subject. At what age WAS he accountable? Not at 9. At 16, when he married Marolyn? Boy my 16 years olds are sureley not thinking 100% as adults yet. An adolescent being treated as God, what a recipe for disaster!

I say he started being accountable around 1976. There is evidence of clearcut conciousness at this time that he was a cult leader. There is evidence of him trying to 'set the premies free'. And there is evidence that watching the premies go free, and watching his power and money dwindle, was terrifying. So he started praying to Shri Hans, and ran back to what he knew best, being a full fledged cult leader.

I just don't see that he isn't still. But really, talk to Gail and others who were around more recently. I don't know about all the news stuff. I left before the video showings and the kinder gentler master thing.

Also, if you haven't read AJW, read it, and tell me what you think about when to hold Rawat responsible, oh yes, read Mishler too.
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 14:17:00 (EST)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: doney
Subject: Have you read my journey?
Message:
I'm not sure, but that's what I think. I think
you can even argue that Maharaji was bumbling or incompetent in his early
years, but I've seen no evidence that he set out to hurt people or take
advantage of them.


Look at it in light of this statement. Rawat did not commit the crime, but his handling of it goes beyond bumbling and incompetent.
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 15:28:45 (EST)
From: Doney
Email: None
To: g's mom
Subject: I'm Really Sorry
Message:
g's mom:

I read your journey and it made me angry. Jagdeo should be punished for what he did and Maharaji, and those around him, have responsbility if they knew about it and didn't try to stop it. This is serious and something all premies should know about.

I suggest you send your journey to Maharaji, just the way it's posted, and ask for an explanation. I'd send it registered mail. You deserve an answer. I would also send a letter to Jagdeo saying exactly what you think of him and send it to Maharaji asking that it be delivered to Jagdeo. Send a copy of that letter to Maharaji as well. Let it be known you intend to keep talking about this until you get a response.

I have a good friend who was molested by a trusted family member as a child. She repressed the memory of it until she was an adult. She is still working through the hurt and pain many years later and I know from her how hard it is. But it did her a lot of good to confront the person about it.

I'm really sorry you had to go through that and I don't blame you a bit for being angry about it.
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 15:42:40 (EST)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: Doney
Subject: I'm Really Sorry
Message:
Thank you Doney. One of the reasons I finally posted it was because I think it is the best way for Rawat to know just how I feel about what happened and how he did not stop it.

I do not know if you can understand this but to mail this to Rawat and have it ignored would be a slap in the face. I have never heard of an ex premie writing to Rawat and getting a real answer to a question. Remember, I have informed him of this twice before. The first time I heard nothing back, but assumed it was taken care of. The second time, if he had chosen to, he could have explained what actions he took and apologized to me. That is not the sort of response I got.

Jagdeo makes me sick, he is a deviant and I don't want to write to him.

I am sure Rawat is well aware of this forum and well aware of who G's mom is. If he wants to explain anything to me he can if he chooses. I doubt I will be hearing from him.
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 17:49:24 (EST)
From: Doney
Email: None
To: g's mom
Subject: I Wouldn't Be So Sure
Message:
I have no idea if Maharaji knows what gets said here. He might, and he might not. A letter would be a lot more direct and then you would at least know one way or the other.

I do have a question for you. Your 'friend' who was 'rapidly climbing the DLM hierarchy,' that you told about Jagdeo, why didn't this person do more? Clearly if you saw Jagdeo in the darshan line 2 years later, this DLM honcho saw him too, and was in a position to know very well whether anything was done to Jagdeo or to protect other kids. Don't you think you should have been told by this person exactly what Maharaji intended to do about Jagdeo? Why didn't this person get back to you with that information?

I think this 'friend' may be as much to blame. Have you talked to this person to find out what really happened? Is this person still around Maharaji? I notice you mention Judy Osborne but not this person. Is this a person you are trying to protect? Why? It sounds to me like this person might have been less of a 'friend' than you think.
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 23:59:54 (EST)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: Doney
Subject: I Wouldn't Be So Sure
Message:
Doney I think you are a bright guy.

I am going with my gut a little on both of these questions. I think I have more to lose than gain by writing Rawat. The cost benefit analysis just comes out with me losing.

I have the same questions about my friend you have and they are very good questions. But I am going with my gut on that too. I just am not sure he deserves to be villified on the net. Even if he isn't my friend. In the seventies, Doney, if you were a residence premie and I had come to you with this....what would you have done? Would you have been able to stand up to rawat and tell him how to handle it? Would you have gone to the police? It is really pathetic but we really WERE brainwashed. Does that make sense?
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Date: Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 18:50:41 (EST)
From: Doney
Email: None
To: g's mom
Subject: I Wouldn't Be So Sure
Message:
I just am not sure he deserves to be villified on the net. Even if he isn't my friend.

I'm not suggesting you villify anyone, but it might be good to question how much this person was really intervening on your behalf. Certainly the way you describe this person in your journey he isn't villified in the least, and yet you still don't even use his name. You don't villify Judy Osborne either, but you use her name. Why the distinction? I don't get it. Why are you bending over backwards to protect this person, when he might not have done all that much to protect you at the time all this was going on? He's part of the story and I think you ought to include his name. Just my opinion, I don't want to tell you what to do.

In the seventies, Doney, if you were a residence premie and I had come to you with this....what would you have done? Would you have been able to stand up to rawat and tell him how to handle it? Would you have gone to the police?

I probably wouldn't have gone to the police, because it didn't happen to me I would have no grounds to do that. But if I had known that nothing was being done, and I was your friend, I would have told YOU that. And it's pretty clear from what you say that nothing was being done. I'd want to make sure you felt protected and informed. And if something WAS being done, I'd tell you that too. If this guy was your friend, regardless of his relationship to Maharaji or anyone else, he would have done that. I'd like to think I would have done that, whether I was a premie or not. To tell you the truth, I'll bet this guy knew very well Jagdeo was getting off scott free and continuing to do his dirty deeds and was just too embarrassed to tell you that, or to warn others to keep their little girls away from Jagdeo.

See, this is why I hated the organization so much. Some people really compromised their values and became jerks in the name of Maharaji. And I think it's still going on.
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Date: Tues, Mar 09, 1999 at 21:40:10 (EST)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: Doney
Subject: when we started this...
Message:
conversation you were the premie and I was the ex. are we not in some sort of role reversal here with ME being the one making excuses for people's behavior?

Doney, what you are saying is just right on the mark.

I have searched my mind for what conversations I might have had with him the next time I saw him after I told him. I have the vaguest of recollections that he may have told me that he did tell the Guru. I am certain he did not say what the guru did about it or did not do about it. I would not have asked what Rawat was going to do, I would have seen that as not my place.

What I really should have done is kept Judy Osborne's name off the board as well. I suppose she was not a real person to me as my only contact with her ever was to tell her about Jagdeo. Judy if you are reading this I hope this is not causing to much of a problem in your life. My impression was you genuinely tried to do what was right.

I am certain you were right he was in a position to know Jagdeo was getting off scott free. You are totally right that it just doesn't sit well with my loyalty here.

I am probably just clinging to the idea that he did his best. He used to help me with my algebra homework at the ashram when I would come after school to do service. I had a adolescent crush on him. He treated me like a kid sister. Maybe the 14 year old girl still inside me just really wants to believe the best she can about people.

Anyway Doney, thanks, thanks for making me examine this a little more. I may not like it but I think you are right about a lot of what you say.
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Date: Wed, Mar 10, 1999 at 00:34:22 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: g's mom
Subject: when we started this...
Message:
Hi g's mom

I just can't figure how Judy Osborne and others who knew about jagdeo are still around.
It seems like the path of devotion is to completely give up one's humanness.

Evil flourishes where good people do nothing.

love from jethro

Ps I wouldn't feel bad about publishing the names of anyone that knew about it and did nothing.
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Date: Wed, Mar 10, 1999 at 01:41:35 (EST)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: are they still around
Message:
I really don't know if either of them are still around. Maybe I should ask Malibu Mole?

I can only do what I feel is right and I still feel that these people may have done their best at the time. If they were as genuine in their belief that Rawat was truly the superior power in person as I was I can see them finding rationalizations to keep their belief in Rawat when faced with this story. I am not excusing that but I know how twisted my thinking was back then, I can only imagine others were just as capable of denying reality

The other piece we have that we do not know they had is the what AJW said and the other woman I have corresponded with. The proof that these are not isolated incidents is a lot stronger now. And the evidence that Rawat knew and still sent him on tour is A LOT stronger now. Finding a way to rationalize one report IS bad, but ignoring multiple reports from all over the world is incredibly horrible. And I do not know how many premies knew that they were not the first ones to report this. But Rawat knew. That is really clear. And that is what I find truly appalling.
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Date: Wed, Mar 10, 1999 at 06:29:48 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: g's mom
Subject: are they still around
Message:
Whenever I speak to a premie these days, I always challenge them on this issue. I ask them how they can still follow him knowing about jagdeo etc. Thety all say they will check it out and get back to me.
To this day not one of them has got back to me.
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Date: Wed, Mar 10, 1999 at 10:05:00 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Jagdeo's picture
Message:
I've got one somewhere, on some old magazine.

Would you like to have it?
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Date: Wed, Mar 10, 1999 at 19:29:26 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Jagdeo's picture
Message:
'Would you like to have it?'

thanks but I also have his picture in an old magazine.

I think his time is coming.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 11, 1999 at 03:06:56 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: jmkahn@club-internet.fr
To: Jethro
Subject: Would you save me some time?
Message:
scan it (well) and email it to me?

Otherwise I'll have to go through all my old magazines again...
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Date: Wed, Mar 10, 1999 at 11:51:52 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Doney
Subject: blame and responsibility
Message:
See, this is why I hated the organization so much. Some people really compromised their values and became jerks in the name of Maharaji.

With all due respect, Doney, people (both premies and exes) have posted things like this on the forum for years. Unless I'm reading you wrong here, you're saying that the problems in DLM/EV are the fault of the premies in positions of leadership. This postulates that Maharaji was an innocent, unworldly person who was being manipulated by the premies around him. I have heard people blame everyone from Bob Mishler to Mata Ji for things that happened in DLM. I just don't believe this - for one thing, I don't think Maharaji is that stupid and unaware, although I do believe it's possible that he just doesn't care.

Also, there's a question of responsibility here. Maharaji is ultimately responsible for things done in his name. The excuse of 'not knowing' doesn't cut it. This may have been true when he was very young, but it stopped being true at a certain point, and it's certainly not true now. Even if Maharaji is or was surrounded by a bunch of fawning and deceitful premies who just told him what he wanted to hear, that's still no excuse. I believe, from what G's mom and others have said, that Maharaji was well aware of the situation with Jagdeo. Even if the premies around him told him that it had all been taken care of, he could have easily checked to make sure things were being done to keep Jagdeo away from children. He could have made a public announcement, or even just made a few phone calls. Maharaji is and has not been powerless in his own organization, to say the least.

When I was a premie, I believed that Maharaji would take care of everything 'perfectly'. G's mom has stated that she believed this as well, and I think many other premies did too. I'm not sure what G's mom's friend believed - as you implied, he could have been a selfish person looking out for his own best interests. That's really not relevant to this situation, and IMHO is an attempt to shift blame from Maharaji onto this person. I believe that Maharaji HAS to at least share the blame for the Jagdeo incidents. Even if this particular person didn't tell him about it, others did.

Also, and this is not addressed to you, Doney, I think people who imply that G's mom should have taken more responsibility for the situation are very wrong. They obviously do not understand the first thing about the psychology of sexual abuse. I am amazed that G's mom had the strength and courage to take as much action as she did when she was so young, and that she's continued to take action and responsibility to the extent that she has (sometimes I think she takes on TOO much). She has really put herself on the line here, in an extremely unselfish and brave way, and at possible great personal cost, and I have an incredible amount of respect for her because of that.
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Date: Wed, Mar 10, 1999 at 12:57:26 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: M's to blame
Message:
I'd like to add something everyone who's been involved in EV knows.

A lot is done so that m never officialy appears to be the leader of any of his organizations.

He's got a lot of staw men in charge of everything, when he is really managing himself.

Why?

Part of the reason is that he knows very well that a lot of weird things happen in EV, and he doesn't want to be held responsible for anything! And this is no hypothesis. I've been a part of a few seminars with one of his lawyers about it. He wants local managers of EV to be responsible for everything, when they're only implementing HIS policy. And this is the main reason why I resigned. Because I was starting to realize that a lot of crazy thingS was going on, that I was responsible for this, and that really m was responsible for this.

Because that was the mere result of his orders, and I couldn't agree anymore with it. There was a conflict with MY ethics. That's been a very difficult time for me. But I had to admit that M was doing crazy things. That's all.

My idea is that almost every person involved in EV is confronted to this, and has to build a strong denial system to cope with this. And there is a lot involved here....

Any regular leader would take responsibility of everything happening in his/her organization, and would be proud to be officially the leader. M is NOT. He's hiding behind pams and his managers.....

There are even stories he told about it. Like that one when he arrived somewhere, he was dressed in his captain suit, people would believe that his secretary or whoever was Mr Rawat, he didn't say anything. And that was fun for him. The guy is hiding.
Why????
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Date: Wed, Mar 10, 1999 at 13:10:12 (EST)
From: Doney
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: To Katie and g's mom
Message:
Thanks for that thoughtful post Katie and also for yours, g's mom. I have to say I am going through a lot of changes here. I feel like I can finally examine why I felt the way I did 10 years ago. I had a lot of trouble with the organization around Maharaji. It was so bad that I left for a number of years. Also, Maharaji's new, strange, behavior also alienated me. I always wondered why Maharaji didn't do more to correct the abuses that were going on. You said:

With all due respect, Doney, people (both premies and exes) have posted things like this on the forum for years. Unless I'm reading you wrong here, you're saying that the problems in DLM/EV are the fault of the premies in positions of leadership.

I used to think this, but what g's mom and her journey has made me see is that Maharaji is responsible for this stuff. I am also beginning to see that people in an organization, especially one like DLM and EV, take cues from the leader and mimic his values. That's really confronting to me, but maybe now I understand why I felt so revolted by the organization in the 80s and felt it was rotten to the core. But I couldn't blame Maharaji then, but I think I see now who was really behind it all.

And I know the feeling of compromising your values because of the feeling that you want to do what's best for Maharaji. I did it too. It wasn't because I was a bad person, it was because I was no longer in control of my own values. That happened to many people in DLM and EV and I think it still does. I'm sure the friend of g's mom was in the same kind of quandry.

Thanks to you and g's mom for helping me with this, although I kind of feel like my head is still spinning.
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Date: Wed, Mar 10, 1999 at 17:05:12 (EST)
From: Miloochie
Email: None
To: Doney
Subject: Head spinning...
Message:
Thanks to you and g's mom for helping me with this, although I kind of feel like my head is still spinning.

Hi Doney,

You're not alone. Though I took a few drugs in my early years and decided it wasn't for me, I've never gone through a serious drug withdrawal. I've been around lots of them, though. I believe that I'm going through that kind of experience now. It has a lot of similarities.

I find myself even welcoming the moments of pure hell. Am I a glutton for punishment? No. I just have to reassure myself that this may be necessary to genuinely kick the habit, once and for all.

When an episode completes itself, I find I'm very much still alive, in fact, more alive than ever. Another piece of the 'concrete' has shifted, cracked, perhaps even crumbled into tiny, now benign bits.

The humor here is part of the therapy and smooths out the 'primal screams,' that will definitely become less and less and less with a little time and a return to rationality.

Did you finally find the henna-mud reference?

Cheers,

Miloochie

PS The truth about Jagdeo and M's responsibilities will continue to unfold and grow exponentially...I am certain.
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Date: Wed, Mar 10, 1999 at 18:54:17 (EST)
From: Doney
Email: None
To: Miloochie
Subject: Head spinning...
Message:
Did you finally find the henna-mud reference?

No, I still have no idea what you mean. I haven't noticed any mud slinging, well maybe one time when someone accused me of being a 'cult parrot.' But other than that, all the posts from the ex-premies have been very civil and intelligent. Very helpful, actually.
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Date: Wed, Mar 10, 1999 at 23:16:10 (EST)
From: Miloochie
Email: None
To: Doney
Subject: Mud spinning...
Message:
Doney,

Um, well, there's been some moments recently that I think could be characterized as such. Your thread, 'Hello' may have been one of the most civil discussion for days. Your own level-headed, intelligent, and caring contribution has probably attributed much to that result. Though, that's not always a prerequisite one can count on.

I hate to explain a joke, especially when it's pretty lightweight humor. The 'henna-mud slinging' was (partly) referring to the very funny 'Neanderthal' thread that's beginning to run off into the Inactive Index. It's at the bottom of this page as I write this. My comment was intended with affection, as Robyn picked up on. There was also a slight nudge to your ribcage to be prepared. You did what I hoped you do...read the increasing evidence.

Anyway, Doney, I was just clowning around. The more I'm here, the more I see the different levels of humor. Some obvious, some very subtle.

Cheers,

Miloochie
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Date: Wed, Mar 10, 1999 at 19:37:30 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Doney
Subject: Re: To Katie and g's mom
Message:
Thanks to you, Doney, for your honest reply - I appreciate it that you're willing to really listen to what people have to say here, and then to consider their words without bias. Take care of yourself (and watch out for that spinning head!).
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Date: Wed, Mar 10, 1999 at 21:44:20 (EST)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: Doney
Subject: to Doney
Message:
Doney thank you for your support and the respect you have shown me throughout this dialogue.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 11, 1999 at 11:14:26 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: blame and responsibility
Message:
RIGHT ON KATIE!!
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 15:18:28 (EST)
From: Doney
Email: None
To: g's mom
Subject: Have you read AJW's journey?
Message:
I just read AJW's journey and I can relate to it about how the organization is really nuts. I try to avoid it as much as possible. There are lots of premies who are nice people, but a number are just jerks. When some premies get into power they can be pretty insensitive. I can agree fully with that. The way some premies hang on every little action of Maharaji is just nuts and very embarrassing to me, and to him, I think. But not all premies are that way. I had as much trouble with those kinds of premies in the 70s as I do now.

I think even in the 70s Maharaji was responsible for his actions, although he was inept and came from a tradition that was foreign to Western culture. He did all he knew and when it turned out to be counterproductive he changed. As I said, he wasn't very good at explaining his previous actions. He is really bad at that. I agree. Even in 1976 he was pretty young -- I think he was maybe 17 and he didn't have his mom and brothers anymore to tell him how to do things.
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 19:22:03 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Doney
Subject: Have you read AJW's journey?
Message:
So is Maharaji your master?
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 20:05:04 (EST)
From: Doney
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: To Jethro and Denise
Message:
So is Maharaji your master?

Good question. If you asked me this last week I would have said he was. But now, with what I am hearing from people here, I'm not so sure I want to be associated with him. Knowing what I know now, it might be hard to be 'inspired' by him. I'm not sure I can compartmentalize that much.

Hey Denise, I can understand what's happening with you. How are you doing by the way?
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 00:00:02 (EST)
From: bill- anyone else want to
Email: None
To: Doney
Subject: answer his question?
Message:
'Where is the harm' is a good question that has a lot of
possible answers.

One of them that comes to mind is this:
prem rawat is constantly pushing th notion that he is the
'master of life'.
His words, attitudes, desires, opinions, demands, and thoughts
are all stamped with 'official voice of god' by his propaganda
dept. at elan vital.
His new tag on many of the copyright material is 'pure voice'.

His deciet that he is more than he actually is continues
even though your fleeting visits to events doesn't make that
seem apparent to you.

He uses old footage of the days when we westerners were
all tricked by him into his adamant claims to be the
superior power in person. That footage is shown to
innocent people around the world and the whole illusion
that he is the messiah continues.

Countries in africa are now trained to sing arti to him.
They are lined up to kiss his feet.
Asian countries are also given the arti, kiss the foot
programming and even in australia last year he had a
foot kissing of the lord event.

This is not the 'oh, he just is encourageing feeling of your
breath' line of false propaganda now handed out to
avoid common sense objections from people that are coming
to get ensnared in his incorrect view of life.

Some people come to the forum and dismiss us here as
sour grapes and 'clinging to the 70's'. But, that is not
only insulting to us, it is incorrect.

He says to only feel your breath for 15 minutes a day in order
with other so called techniques. Some of here feel our breath
a whole lot more than that and so I say...what sour grapes?

We GOT the 'knowledge' we GOT the directives to view him as
the -master of life-1999, Lord of universe1973-1985,
teacher, whatever.

Others can say more and different things and better than me.
I think it is a good question you ask.

We were told that 'the last attachment to give up is the
perfect master'. Well you and I are attached all over the
place in life and that is but natural and right.
Giving up an unhealthy relationship is usually rough and
you see that in families all the time.
There are many of us here that processed out that unhealthy
relationship right here on the forum (and many used outside
professional help). Sometimes seeing and accepting the
facts and thier meanings takes time and a growing understanding.

Of course premies come here and dismiss our wasted lives as
silly nonsense and spout insults. Oh well!
'don't you like your breath?'
as if P rawat was somehow in any way involved in that.
His latest publication from FEB 99, quoted him as saying
'the in and out of your breath is my blessing to you'

Excuse me, do you see where he is still trying for a new
religion around the millenium messiah lord rawat?

Anyone else care to answer the question?
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 00:38:12 (EST)
From: Miloochie
Email: None
To: bill- anyone else want to
Subject: I think ur's was great bill-nt
Message:
It said a lot of what I'd say.
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Date: Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 11:11:21 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: bill- anyone else want to
Subject: answer his question?
Message:
Good post, Bill. For me, the harm is basically that he fucked with my head. He led me to believe that he was a special person who had special tools to get to a special place. Its all bullshit. There's nothing special about him, his tools or the place they take you to. He doesn't help to answer the questions of life but he acts like he has ALL the answers. He's a misleading scam artist. Either that or he's the most deluded individual I've ever met.

I don't think he's as harmful as a Hitler or a Joseph Stalin but neither does he serve any constructive purpose. I would say the best Maharji is good for is retarding growth and understanding and that's where the harm comes in. He's a detour, from true learning, that nobody needs. He's a waste of time and there's only so much time that we get.
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