Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 44

From: Mar 30, 1999

To: Apr 19, 1999

Page: 5 Of: 5



BaaBaaGee -:- Elan Vital Structure -:- Sat, Apr 03, 1999 at 18:12:13 (EST)
__Pavlova -:- Elan Vital Structure -:- Sat, Apr 03, 1999 at 18:29:55 (EST)
__Nigel -:- Isle of Wight? -:- Sat, Apr 03, 1999 at 20:36:14 (EST)

Brian -:- To CP, and a Feedback Question -:- Sat, Apr 03, 1999 at 11:21:15 (EST)
__Question -:- To CP, and a Feedback Question -:- Sat, Apr 03, 1999 at 15:01:25 (EST)
____Brian -:- Uh, no -:- Sat, Apr 03, 1999 at 16:25:57 (EST)

crow noun -:- Words from phase one -:- Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 23:08:10 (EST)
__caw-caw -:- Letter from GMJ! (74) -:- Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 23:29:33 (EST)
____nevermore -:- Letter from mike donner(74) -:- Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 23:36:53 (EST)
______evermore -:- Letter from bal bhagwan ji(73) -:- Sat, Apr 03, 1999 at 00:02:08 (EST)
________evenmore -:- seven tease -:- Sat, Apr 03, 1999 at 00:28:46 (EST)
____barney -:- I sure was clueless -:- Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 23:39:54 (EST)

Zac -:- Ethics -:- Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 21:14:01 (EST)
__barney -:- RICO are his premies ethical? -:- Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 21:32:56 (EST)
____Denise & counsel -:- RICO are his premies ethical? -:- Sat, Apr 03, 1999 at 18:20:41 (EST)
______barney -:- RICO are his premies ethical? -:- Sun, Apr 04, 1999 at 16:15:49 (EDT)
______Miloochie -:- Question for Denise...? -:- Sun, Apr 04, 1999 at 17:39:00 (EDT)
________Denise -:- Question for Denise...? -:- Sun, Apr 04, 1999 at 19:41:36 (EDT)
__________Zac -:- Welcome back Denise -:- Sun, Apr 04, 1999 at 21:13:17 (EDT)
____________Denise -:- Welcome back Denise -:- Sun, Apr 04, 1999 at 22:07:13 (EDT)
______________no heels -:- no subject -:- Sun, Apr 04, 1999 at 23:03:57 (EDT)
________________Miloochie -:- Denise...your on deck -:- Sun, Apr 04, 1999 at 23:12:43 (EDT)
__________________Denise -:- Denise...your 're on deck -:- Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 10:43:13 (EDT)
________________Denise -:- no subject -:- Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 10:32:01 (EDT)
__________________Nim -:- no subject -:- Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 00:37:15 (EDT)
______________Liz -:- Welcome back Denise -:- Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 00:02:05 (EDT)
________________Runamok -:- Welcome back Denise -:- Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 00:23:02 (EDT)
________________Denise -:- Welcome back Denise -:- Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 11:07:33 (EDT)
__________________Denise -:- Welcome back Denise -:- Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 11:37:14 (EDT)
__________________Liz -:- Welcome back Denise -:- Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 15:49:20 (EDT)
____________________Denise -:- Money and Devotion -:- Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 18:04:59 (EDT)
______________________Victoria -:- honoring promises -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 11:17:31 (EDT)
______________Jerry -:- Welcome back Denise -:- Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 10:59:21 (EDT)
__________Miloochie -:- Great answer -:- Sun, Apr 04, 1999 at 21:52:20 (EDT)
____________Nim -:- Great answer -:- Sun, Apr 04, 1999 at 22:20:50 (EDT)
______________Miloochie -:- Great confusion -:- Sun, Apr 04, 1999 at 22:43:16 (EDT)
________________Nim -:- Great confusion -:- Sun, Apr 04, 1999 at 23:11:38 (EDT)
__________________Miloochie -:- Great confusion -:- Sun, Apr 04, 1999 at 23:42:00 (EDT)
____________________Nim -:- Great respect -:- Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 00:11:45 (EDT)
______________________Miloochie -:- Great respect to you -:- Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 19:14:01 (EDT)
________________________Nim -:- Great respect to you -:- Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 00:23:32 (EDT)
____________________Denise -:- Great confusion re: Jim -:- Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 12:03:25 (EDT)
______________________Jim -:- Great confusion re: Jim -:- Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 13:17:53 (EDT)
________________________Runamok -:- confusion and leaving M -:- Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 20:55:12 (EDT)
____________Denise -:- Great answer, sorry Jim -:- Sun, Apr 04, 1999 at 22:21:22 (EDT)
______________Jim -:- Oh, THANKS!! -:- Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 23:53:26 (EDT)
______Mary M -:- RICO are his premies ethical? -:- Sun, Apr 04, 1999 at 21:18:49 (EDT)
________Denise -:- RICO are his premies ethical? -:- Sun, Apr 04, 1999 at 22:29:35 (EDT)
__________gerry the terrible -:- More horse hockey, Dee -:- Sun, Apr 04, 1999 at 22:48:11 (EDT)
____________Roger Drek -:- RICO is criminal, but also -:- Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 03:43:49 (EDT)
______________JW -:- RICO is criminal, but also -:- Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 13:22:02 (EDT)
________________Roger Drek -:- RICO is criminal, but also -:- Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 15:50:55 (EDT)
__________________JW -:- Slave Labor -:- Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 16:49:01 (EDT)
____________________Roger E. Drek -:- Slaves Statute of Limitations -:- Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 21:55:17 (EDT)
____________________Mary M -:- Rainbow Grocery - Slave Labor -:- Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 13:55:22 (EDT)
______________________JW -:- Which Rainbow? -:- Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 16:50:09 (EDT)
________________________Mary M -:- Which Rainbow? -:- Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 18:23:35 (EDT)
__________________________JW -:- I Don't Think So Mary -:- Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 18:48:34 (EDT)
____________________________Mary M -:- I Don't Think So Mary -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 10:12:01 (EDT)
____________________________Mary M -:- DLM to EV -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 10:23:33 (EDT)
______________________________JW -:- Right Mary -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 13:16:58 (EDT)
________________________________Mary M -:- Robert Jacobs? -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 13:24:34 (EDT)
______JW -:- Get Real, Denise -:- Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 12:55:47 (EDT)
____bb -:- Zac and JW -:- Sat, Apr 03, 1999 at 18:29:10 (EST)
______Runamok -:- Zac and JW -:- Sat, Apr 03, 1999 at 22:13:19 (EST)
________Helen -:- Zac: regarding ethics -:- Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 10:23:49 (EDT)
__________Zac -:- Zac: regarding ethics -:- Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 18:05:48 (EDT)
____________Helen -:- Zac: regarding ethics -:- Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 19:42:49 (EDT)
__________Liz -:- Zac: regarding ethics -:- Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 00:13:55 (EDT)
____________Zac -:- Liz: regarding ethics -:- Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 08:01:53 (EDT)
______________Denise -:- regarding ethics -:- Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 11:23:17 (EDT)
________________Zac -:- regarding ethics -:- Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 13:10:17 (EDT)
__________________JW -:- regarding ethics -:- Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 14:53:36 (EDT)
____________________Zac -:- Community Managers -:- Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 20:02:14 (EDT)
______________________Stranger in the Back Row -:- Community Weirdness and Ethics -:- Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 21:54:54 (EDT)
________________________dv -:- Community Weirdness and Ethics -:- Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 22:24:56 (EDT)
__________________________JW -:- Can you explain? -:- Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 23:54:06 (EDT)
____________________________Zac -:- Can you explain? -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 00:46:04 (EDT)
____________________________dv -:- Can you explain? -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 10:22:04 (EDT)

Jim -:- Paraphrasing the summary -:- Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 20:12:16 (EST)

Zac -:- Are we being hacked? -:- Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 20:00:55 (EST)
__Mary M -:- Are we being hacked? -:- Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 20:42:30 (EST)
__afraid -:- Are we being hacked? -:- Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 20:53:25 (EST)
____Mary m -:- Are we being hacked? -:- Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 21:16:14 (EST)
____Zac -:- Afraid of what? -:- Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 21:22:43 (EST)
______barney -:- they cannot find you unless -:- Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 21:42:14 (EST)
____JW -:- Are we being hacked? -:- Sat, Apr 03, 1999 at 00:13:35 (EST)
______Jean-Michel -:- We are absolutely safe! -:- Sat, Apr 03, 1999 at 04:08:56 (EST)
________Helen -:- We are absolutely safe! -:- Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 10:40:57 (EDT)
__bb -:- zac attack -:- Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 22:31:39 (EST)
____Zac -:- Dumb for not getting it? -:- Sat, Apr 03, 1999 at 06:23:12 (EST)

Jim -:- More manguage (1) -:- Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 19:11:02 (EST)
__Jim -:- More manguage (2) -:- Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 19:12:02 (EST)
____Nim -:- More manguage (2) -:- Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 00:43:34 (EDT)

Mary M -:- Elan Vital - Enjoy -:- Thurs, Apr 01, 1999 at 21:11:49 (EST)
__Roger Drek -:- Oh, my freaking God! -:- Thurs, Apr 01, 1999 at 21:32:03 (EST)
____Mary M -:- Oh, my freaking God! -:- Thurs, Apr 01, 1999 at 21:42:15 (EST)
______Roger Drek -:- Oh, my freaking God! -:- Thurs, Apr 01, 1999 at 22:37:25 (EST)
________Runamok -:- Oh, my freaking God! -:- Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 00:21:50 (EST)
__________cp -:- Oh, my freaking God!!!!!!!! -:- Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 00:52:06 (EST)
________JW -:- Oh, my freaking God! -:- Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 16:05:51 (EST)
__Your Friend -:- It's a bird, It's a plane... -:- Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 18:48:42 (EST)

JHB -:- David Smith in England -:- Thurs, Apr 01, 1999 at 18:42:22 (EST)
__crow magnum -:- I wish that was my town (nt) -:- Thurs, Apr 01, 1999 at 19:28:56 (EST)
__The Equalizer -:- David Smith in England -:- Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 02:56:23 (EST)
__The Pinochet Team -:- War Crimes Tribunal -:- Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 12:30:13 (EST)
____Katie -:- I edited your post -:- Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 13:15:58 (EST)
______The Bionic Bakers -:- Appropriate Punishments -:- Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 14:34:25 (EST)
________Ms. Katie -:- Sheesh! (but very funny) -:- Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 15:17:50 (EST)

Happy -:- K in books - more -:- Thurs, Apr 01, 1999 at 12:51:02 (EST)
__crowdad -:- K in books - more -:- Thurs, Apr 01, 1999 at 15:08:12 (EST)

Jim -:- M's real April Fool's joke -:- Thurs, Apr 01, 1999 at 11:42:50 (EST)
__crow's feet -:- M's real April Fool's joke -:- Thurs, Apr 01, 1999 at 15:12:18 (EST)

Jim -:- Maharaji supports study of K!! -:- Tues, Mar 30, 1999 at 21:16:39 (EST)
__Jerry -:- Acceptance -:- Tues, Mar 30, 1999 at 22:42:44 (EST)
____Zac -:- Acceptance -:- Wed, Mar 31, 1999 at 09:08:14 (EST)
______Mike -:- I remember -:- Wed, Mar 31, 1999 at 10:09:43 (EST)
________Zac -:- Responsibility -:- Wed, Mar 31, 1999 at 10:56:08 (EST)
__________Helen -:- Responsibility -:- Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 13:15:57 (EST)
__________Marshall -:- TPP ? -:- Sat, Apr 03, 1999 at 02:48:26 (EST)
____________Zac -:- TPP ? -:- Sun, Apr 04, 1999 at 13:59:50 (EDT)
________Victoria -:- changed techniques -:- Thurs, Apr 01, 1999 at 08:49:02 (EST)
__________Runamok -:- changed techniques -:- Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 00:33:12 (EST)
______JW -:- Acceptance -:- Wed, Mar 31, 1999 at 13:18:36 (EST)
________Marshall -:- Acceptance -:- Wed, Mar 31, 1999 at 13:57:14 (EST)
__________Zac -:- Acceptance -:- Wed, Mar 31, 1999 at 17:04:46 (EST)
__Nil -:- Maharaji supports study of K!! -:- Wed, Mar 31, 1999 at 12:03:34 (EST)
____Nim -:- Nim supports study of Nil -:- Wed, Mar 31, 1999 at 13:50:10 (EST)
____Mike -:- Internal indicator??? -:- Wed, Mar 31, 1999 at 15:18:47 (EST)
____Zac -:- Maharaji supports study of K!! -:- Wed, Mar 31, 1999 at 16:48:34 (EST)
______Mike -:- Zac, Zac, Zac -:- Wed, Mar 31, 1999 at 17:16:36 (EST)
________Zac -:- Mikey -:- Wed, Mar 31, 1999 at 18:00:24 (EST)
__________Helen -:- Zac's magical freckle -:- Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 13:10:50 (EST)
____JW -:- Internal Indicator -:- Wed, Mar 31, 1999 at 19:43:01 (EST)
______Scott T. -:- Internal Indicator -:- Thurs, Apr 01, 1999 at 17:15:29 (EST)
________Mike -:- Scott & JW -:- Thurs, Apr 01, 1999 at 19:08:51 (EST)
____Scott T. -:- Maharaji supports study of K!! -:- Thurs, Apr 01, 1999 at 17:11:32 (EST)

Scott T. -:- Arguing the World -:- Tues, Mar 30, 1999 at 11:35:59 (EST)
__'>',,,,crowbill -:- they might be giants -:- Wed, Mar 31, 1999 at 11:51:13 (EST)
____Scott T. -:- they might be giants -:- Thurs, Apr 01, 1999 at 09:25:05 (EST)

Jim -:- Manguage of the heart (1) -:- Tues, Mar 30, 1999 at 00:34:15 (EST)
__Jim -:- Manguage of the heart (2) -:- Tues, Mar 30, 1999 at 00:34:59 (EST)
____cp -:- Manguage of the heart (2) -:- Tues, Mar 30, 1999 at 00:43:05 (EST)
______Bill Cooper -:- Manguage of the heart (2) -:- Tues, Mar 30, 1999 at 06:16:15 (EST)
____tweety pie-Crow.org -:- Songbird.org -:- Tues, Mar 30, 1999 at 08:53:49 (EST)
______bill Crow -:- john crainer the liar -:- Tues, Mar 30, 1999 at 08:57:03 (EST)
__Mike -:- Manguage of the heart (1) -:- Tues, Mar 30, 1999 at 09:51:33 (EST)


Date: Sat, Apr 03, 1999 at 18:12:13 (EST)
From: BaaBaaGee
Email: Out to pasture
To: Everyone
Subject: Elan Vital Structure
Message:
The way I see it there exists an international network of entities
which are used to hold assets as well as for collecting and distributing funds.

A possible order of hierarcy:

*Elan Vital Foundation (Switzerland)
*Elan Vital International (?)
*Elan Vital (USA) dba.Visions International
*Elan Vital (Australia,England,France,etc.)

Off Shore:

*Amaroo (Isle of White)
*La Tierra (?)

Other:
*India
*Maritius
*Production Companies

Trusts:
*Various family (Switzerland ?)

By using the various non-profits for channeling funds into the
private holding companies around the world M. has exposed himself.

This is an on-going process.The result of greed and very poor
legal advice. When taken as a whole you have M. exposed.
Much like in the Wizard of OZ.

The Boss is in real trouble if ever there is a concerted effort
by the IRS to pull back the curtain. Maybe it is a sign of his
personal 'Grace' that he has survived so far, so long.

I see in M. as a divided image. One, that which I make of him on
stage. The other, what it is that we are all made ill at ease
over; his personal excesses,disregard,and total lack of accountablility.

Can we make him change his ways. Maybe.

Personally,I wish him the best.Maybe this is my idea of service.
I always wondered why the idea of service never included taking
care of the benefit of our own families and other premies.
It always just seems to be M. . Well, without M. I wouldn't have
this game. Maybe I'm just twisted,but this is my idea of gratitude.

So,let's fill in the pieces so everyone will be in the know and then they will be free of the duplicity. Or whatever.
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Date: Sat, Apr 03, 1999 at 18:29:55 (EST)
From: Pavlova
Email: None
To: BaaBaaGee
Subject: Elan Vital Structure
Message:
Hey, if you'd like to see him laughing all the way to the bank, singing and dancing as he goes, try www.hampsterdance.com. The music takes a little while to load but it's well worth the wait.
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Date: Sat, Apr 03, 1999 at 20:36:14 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: Nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: BaaBaaGee
Subject: Isle of Wight?
Message:
You have got be kidding.



Off Shore:

*Amaroo (Isle of White)


(Unless there is an Isle of White / Light / Delight that I have never heard of)

I grew up, and was corrupted by a fake messiah on the Isle of Wight (UK). It is certainly no tax haven.

But on the plus side, I saw Dylan do his '69 post motorcycle accident gig, and Jimi the next year, just before he died. There are dinosaur footprints and skeletons on the beaches. Tennyson and Keats used to live there. Darwin visited frequently and wrote much of 'The Origin' there while visiting Tennyson. (As a result of which, Tennyson lost his faith and came out with that 'Nature, red in tooth and claw' line.)

BTW: if there are any Isle of Wight premies / ex's out there, circa 1977 - 1987. Please email me. We have a lot to talk about...
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Date: Sat, Apr 03, 1999 at 11:21:15 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: To CP, and a Feedback Question
Message:
CP - I got your email, but my reply was bounced by your email server with this explaination:

This Message was undeliverable due to the following reason:
The following destination addresses were unknown (please check the addresses and re-mail the message):
[CP's return address]
Please reply to Postmaster@[CP's ISP] if you feel this message to be in error.

Make certain that you have your email software configured with your correct return address. If you are getting replies from other people that you email, then that's not the problem of course. Beats me...

But the answer to your question is that there is no action that I need to take, because there is no problem.

Also, I received this question via the Feedback form:

Is there any possible way to trace where this is coming from. Please answer in the forum.

It's possible to have the originating IP address included in the information that is sent to me, but I don't request it on the form. A look at the HTML source of the Feedback form page (Send us some Feedback) will show that the orginating IP is not being trapped and forwarded to me.

So the information isn't coming to me because I don't want it, and nobody else has the ability to get it. Hope that answered your question.
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Date: Sat, Apr 03, 1999 at 15:01:25 (EST)
From: Question
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: To CP, and a Feedback Question
Message:
Is the forum down?
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Date: Sat, Apr 03, 1999 at 16:25:57 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Question
Subject: Uh, no
Message:
Is the forum down?

Not if you can see this. There were problems yesterday, but we've decided to blame it all on Jim :)
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Date: Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 23:08:10 (EST)
From: crow noun
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Words from phase one
Message:
'we must get to the point where we are one million minds but only one idea. All decisions will be made by gugu maharaji and
orders will be given to each country so all we have to do is follow them.'
gugu maharaji 1974

1974 National news:
'It's hard to believe, althought there are 572 members of the
monastic dlm (ashrams) In 1974, 5,700 people recieved k
in the USA. Bringing the premies at large in the us to 32,000.
But, since we only started counting somwhere in 72, there are
probaly another 18,000 of us somplace lost in the bliss.'

I was around in 73 and I doubt the 18,000 figure for pre mid 72.
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Date: Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 23:29:33 (EST)
From: caw-caw
Email: None
To: crow noun
Subject: Letter from GMJ! (74)
Message:
Dear Premies:
Some of you recently might have been experiencing a lot of problems concerning mata ji, bal bhagwan ji and bhole ji. This has become very serious and I am sending out this letter to
clarify the situation.
It has turned out that mata ji , bbj, and bhole ji have denied
in every way to cooperate with me in doing prachar, spreading this
knowledge. They have refused to obey my agya and have tried to
decieve many premies. this might sound ridiculous but,
unfortunately this is true. I want to warn all the premies
because until now this situation has brought a lot of confusion and controversy. I want that no premie should cooperate with
such people, for if they are not following my agya, they just
become an obstruction in the spreading of this knowledge.
-No premie, it does not matter who he is or what he does,
if he has denied agya, and has started following his own mind,
he is right back where he started.- That is why it is so important for premies to be in agya.

At this time, mataji, through an abuse of the legal authority
entrusted to her on my behalf, has appointed ten new trustees to the governing body of the divine light mission in england.
This action was not taken by my agya. I feel that this
action is detrimental to this missions operation now and in the future. If people wha are not appointed by my agya come to control
dlm,, I do not want premies to continue to cooperate with them
or support them in any way but rather to continue to
propagate the knowledge under my agya. It is not unusual for people to oppose the work of the perfect master for either
selfish or ignorant reasons. premies who have understood the
importance of this knowledge should not be affected by those who
seek to confuse or distract you from the practise of service
satsang and meditation under the agya of the perfect master.
I hope you understand the importance of this message
blessings to you all
sant ji maharaj

DUO international
oct 26 1974
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Date: Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 23:36:53 (EST)
From: nevermore
Email: None
To: caw-caw
Subject: Letter from mike donner(74)
Message:
Just a part, the full letter later-it is very long and talks about
the family break up.

'So my dear brothers and sisters, no one said this path was
simple-but actually it is simple if we get down to the
simple agya of guru maharaj ji.
When we do satsang service ans meditation, then we we experience
the grace and the peace and joy of seeing gmj's plan unfold
perfectly for this world.
gmj is the supreme power who is taking care of everything in this
world. If we relax and remember to remember that gmj is concious
of all life, then our life becomes full of peace and bliss.
jai sat chit anand
your brother in his love,
mike donner
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Date: Sat, Apr 03, 1999 at 00:02:08 (EST)
From: evermore
Email: None
To: nevermore
Subject: Letter from bal bhagwan ji(73)
Message:
'peace and trancendental wisdom can only come from one source:
the one who is the perfect master.
Even a perfect master cannot help those who do not want to
be helped. Let us open our hearts: let us be a reciever and let us
take a firm pledge to experience this knowledge.
Mind cannot be at rest unless it is serving the one who is the
word made flesh.
It is difficult to pay our mother for her love and care, but
even if one wants to, it cannot be with money but only with love.
What use has this life if it is abstained form the holy darshans
and semons of gurumaharaj ji?
What meaning has it if it cannot encompass itself into the
evergreen bond of love? Do not dismiss that opportunity
which the apostles, arjuna, and ananda had. For nothing will
remain for you but to repent and regret for evermore.

Blessed is that ear that hears satsang, blessed are the eyes
that see the holy one; blessed are those hands that touch his
feet, and above all, blessed is he who understands the holy one
in time. Let us collect the joy of living with the lord.
may his grace abide with you.'
bal bhagwan ji
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Date: Sat, Apr 03, 1999 at 00:28:46 (EST)
From: evenmore
Email: None
To: evermore
Subject: seven tease
Message:
'this year the most holy and significant event in human history
will take place in america.'
gurumaharaji ji
about milleniun 73

'the worst thing you can do is think you can do it.'
The next worse thing you can do is think you can't do it.'
gmj 74

On movies:
'this is entertainment of the mind not the soul. If people want
this kind of entertainment, how will they benefit from knowledge?'
1999. gasp

1974 Jim bass:
'how perfect it all is! Humility is the natural product of
meditation. After watching him sustain my life with his power,
I could not possibly feel proud of anything I had done.
All my glory was based on one essential thing-my continued
breathing-and this was not in my hands.
I see now that my breath is an invisible lifeline that connects me
like the leash on my dog Pierre. By remainig sensitive to that
conection, I can surrender to divine will and avoid pain.
For me to ignore my dependence on him, even for a minute, is to
bite the hand that breathes me. That hurtsd. Today, if I start
feeling bad, I know what to do: meditate and get back in line.'

Well, Jim Bass, you did understand gurumaharaji ji's message.
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Date: Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 23:39:54 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: caw-caw
Subject: I sure was clueless
Message:
I remember the DUO proclamation and somehow thought that it was some important moment that was going to save the world. Little did I know that it was a defensive ruse on the part of Maharaji to continue his scheme to have his cake and eat it too.

Oh my Lord, you are my all
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Date: Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 21:14:01 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Ethics
Message:
Do ethics matter in maharaji's world?
Why do we have the concept of ethics?
Do ethics matter at all?
Is maharaji above ethical behavior and is that part of his contract with people who receive knowledge?
Is ethical behavior completely off the table?

He cheats, he lies, he's an adulterer, he harbors child molesters, he benefits from slave labor, he accepts donations from people whose net worth is 1/millionth his, he cons, he scams, he launders money, he evades taxes, he browbeats, he intimidates, he brainwashes, etc.

Hey he's the living perfect master of the time!
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Date: Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 21:32:56 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: RICO are his premies ethical?
Message:
I say no from my own experience, although I don't believe that I did anything unethical nor illegal.

The mandate/charter of practicing Knowledge and obeying the Master leads to a manifest destiny mentality that is above the law and ethics. Maharaji and his premies are elitists with their little insider secret that Maharaji is God (let's say it how it is!) and they will do just about anything to stay in his good graces.

I'm looking at the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations (RICO) statutes to see if they are applicable for filing a civil suit against Maharaji and EV.

And I'm seeing that it might very well be possible. My quick view says the civil suit needs to meet a number of criteria which include a pattern of fraudulent activities and show an injury.

The fraud could be as simple as showing that Maharaji himself benefited from EV funds. I'm sure that EV is making great efforts to do this, but really. How does this guy afford a $30 million dollar palace in Malibu? For all us rocket scientists, the whole thing is front to funnel money to Maharaji.

The injury, while small for an individual would be money contributed to EV. This is easily verifiable from cancelled checks and acknowledgements from Elan Vital. Perhaps, a Class Action can be filed to have a larger impact.

Yeah CD, my EGO (oh, that's such loaded word!) is into this and I'm feeling good about that!
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Date: Sat, Apr 03, 1999 at 18:20:41 (EST)
From: Denise & counsel
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: RICO are his premies ethical?
Message:
barney,

My private counsel informs me that RICO doesn't apply to this situation (at least the way you stated it, fraud because he benefitted from EV funds). He explained to me that just because Elizabeth Dole was paid $90,000 by the Red Cross last year as an employee, that doesn't mean she's doing anything fraudulant provided that she declared her income to the IRS and the Red Cross disclosed her salary. He said that a non-profit organization can pay its employees with donated money and it's legal.

He also told me re: the 'injury' that (if I understand this right) you are no worse off if you donated money thinking it went to one thing and ended up going to pay the director. His example to me was that if I donated $100 to the Red Cross for its charity work and I find out that Elizabeth Dole is making $90,000 coming out of the donations to the Red Cross, I can't claim an injury because I would have been out the $100 whether she had been paid or not.

Just some info. for you. Have a good one. *Denise

P.S. This is not a defense of anyone's actions, just facts, You'll never know which 'side' of the fence I landed on anyway!
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Date: Sun, Apr 04, 1999 at 16:15:49 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Denise & counsel
Subject: RICO are his premies ethical?
Message:
Admittedly, we are at a great disadvantage in helping develop a civil suit or anything against Maharaji because we lack the financial resourses and expertise to do so. Maharaji has a war chest of money and teams of lawyers and financial experts to conceal the truth.

I read what your counsel said and I disagree with the Red Cross and Elizabeth Dole analogy. Ms. Dole was a paid director whereas from what I understand it is illegal for Maharaji to personally benefit from EV and all the other entities that have been created. It is simply ludicrous to even consider that Maharaji isn't making out like a bandit if you were to drive by his palace in Malibu.

I believe that there has been a number of undeniable patterns of fraud throughout the years that help make this case. Consider the premie companies where premies worked for nothing or for slave wages, the suitcases of watches smuggled (ancient history, but part of the pattern), workers on the residence supposedly part of some company, etc.

The injury of contributions is only one injury. Again, premies who worked at DECA, Rainbow Grocery, Amtext, Divine Travel, etc. also suffered monetary injuries.

Yes, it's a David vs. Goliath battle, but we all know that a fraud was and is being perpetuated. Sure, proving it is another matter and the very least we can do is put it out here in cyberspace for people to consider.
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Date: Sun, Apr 04, 1999 at 17:39:00 (EDT)
From: Miloochie
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Question for Denise...?
Message:
Hi Denise,

In an above thread you wrote: 'I owe you one.' Well, I don't think you owe me anything, but I'd sure like to know what you mean by;

You'll never know which 'side' of the fence I landed on anyway!

Miloochie
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Date: Sun, Apr 04, 1999 at 19:41:36 (EDT)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: Miloochie
Subject: Question for Denise...?
Message:
Jim guessed wrong.
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Date: Sun, Apr 04, 1999 at 21:13:17 (EDT)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Welcome back Denise
Message:
Can I get you a spritzer! What happened for you? What finally clicked?
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Date: Sun, Apr 04, 1999 at 22:07:13 (EDT)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: Welcome back Denise
Message:
What finally clicked? Well, multiple things really. I spent some more time and researched more thoroughly the links to this site including the one about the Indian tradition of masters and did lots of thinking and sorting through my thoughts. The factual info is what I needed such as about Amtext, Jagdeo, Swiss accounts, etc. My husband helped by giving feedback and helping me do some reality testing.
Mostly, I just needed time for everything to really sink in. I was feeling such a sense of loss of something special to me that I was avoiding dealing with things that had been bothering me for a long time but didn't dare bring them to the forefront of my mind.
Y'all verbalized things I didn't dare think too much about, but was forced to. I don't agree with everything here and am happy I am one that is able to experience 'that place' (due to physiological reasons or whatever), but also couldn't deny some of the negative things about M brought up here. I had a hard time separating out my good experience of the meditation with my relationship to the one who taught me, but have gotten to a place I can live with. I suppose I'll still be sorting some things out for a while, but have made a decision as to where I stand now.

Thanks Zac, a spritzer sounds good, or how about a gin and tonic with lime? Have a good evening!
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Date: Sun, Apr 04, 1999 at 23:03:57 (EDT)
From: no heels
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: no subject
Message:
I'm not surprised. You came here looking for trouble. Look for trouble, you will find it.

Ever want to look for bliss again, you can find that too.

Best of luck to you.
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Date: Sun, Apr 04, 1999 at 23:12:43 (EDT)
From: Miloochie
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Denise...your on deck
Message:
Ok Denise, you've been challenged as an EX-premie/pwk. The crowd is a hush, awaiting your response to 'no heels' veiled good wishes.

Miloochie
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Date: Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 10:43:13 (EDT)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: Miloochie
Subject: Denise...your 're on deck
Message:
Just reefing the sails, it was too windy.
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Date: Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 10:32:01 (EDT)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: no heels
Subject: no subject
Message:
No Heels,

The best part of the deal is I do have bliss. Believe it or not, I had stopped meditating for about 6 mos. and have begun again after taking a good look at everything for once in 16 years. A couple days ago after meditating, I was blissed out most of the day and it was nice. Why couldn't I still keep this? Why would I give this up? I just separated myself from something that I had begun to see was flawed--the outer organization. (Actually had seen signs for a while but ignored them). I kept what I consider perfect.
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Date: Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 00:37:15 (EDT)
From: Nim
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: no subject
Message:
I just separated myself from something that I had begun to see was flawed--the outer organization.
Oh that's so wonderful, Denise!
So I guess as soon as m does some cosmetic revamping of his 'outer organization', you'll be able to lead us all back to the cult.
Wheeeeeeeeeeeeee! Thank you ! Thank you! Thank you!
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Date: Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 00:02:05 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Welcome back Denise
Message:
Hello Denise,

Sorry you had to put up with all that flack when you were hoping for some help to find out the answers to your questions. I'm glad you have come to a decision. I'm like you - I like the meditation and it takes a long time to disassociate it with M.

A lot of people on this thread have just given up on the whole thing totally and that's alright too. But why can't they let others be themselves and come to their own conclusions without feeling the need to force opinions on others. We don't want to be SHEEP now do we.
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Date: Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 00:23:02 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: Welcome back Denise
Message:
I had incredible meditation experiences but it seemed like it took years to dump that heavy weight of a vampire off of my back. What a vulture M is!!

Congratulations on leaving an abusive relationship.
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Date: Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 11:07:33 (EDT)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: Welcome back Denise
Message:
Good point about being SHEEP. A little more support would have been nice, but my husband helped me out with that so it all worked out. I think a lot of my sincere questions were viewed as in defense of M when really they were questions I needed to look at both sides of to get a better view of the big picture.

It seems extra difficult when one is having a nice experience of the meditation because without it, I would have thrown the whole thing out the window years ago. I never understood the premies in different communities I was in that had been around since the 70's and admitted they had little or no experience of K (meditation). I wondered why they stuck around, but through this forum learned more about the extent of the trip back then (agya, etc.) and now it makes a lot of sense to me.

I admit to still being confused about why someone could give such a beautiful experience (for me at least) and then do some of the immoral stuff I see mentioned here, but I guess I have the rest of my life to figure that one out. I stopped propagation about 3 years ago because there were things that bothered me that I didn't want others to see or think I could be a part of. I was sincerely waiting for a few changes to be made, but they never were and in fact, got even worse in the last few years.

The most ironic part of my turn around is that it was a card-carrying premie that told me about this site in the first place. Maybe they should have kept it quiet as everyone seems to have done about the 70's stuff I knew little about. Or maybe it was by Guru Maharaji's Grace that they told me!
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Date: Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 11:37:14 (EDT)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Welcome back Denise
Message:
Thanks for the tips on books, Jerry. I have, in fact, ordered 'The Guru Papers' through interlibrary loan from my local library (which didn't have it). They said it should take a couple weeks to come in. I believe it was JW that recommended it to me before, but can't remember exactly who.

Re: evolutionary psych., I actually studied it a little in graduate school. I just read in the newspaper this past weekend about a new book on consciousness that I plan on getting when I get around to it. I'll have to look up the review to pass on the name of the book. It looked interesting.

Enjoy your day, *Denise
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Date: Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 15:49:20 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Welcome back Denise
Message:
Hi Denise,

Seems you are in a very similar place to me, (baa baa) no really.

I think we need to be aware here that people are relying on a safe place where they can go and work things out for themselves without others imposing for or against. I know that is what I need as a fairly recent rethinker.

I do experience a lot from meditation and it is very reassuring that I can defect and still experience this. That tells us a lot and if you premies are out there sneaking a peak you too can still feel great improvements without spending your money making improvements to M's luxurious abode!
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Date: Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 18:04:59 (EDT)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: Money and Devotion
Message:
Liz,

You know, the money thing has been in the back of my mind for years but I put it out of my consciousness until I began reading forum. If he has all this money, why doesn't he support the spread of K? I know some very poor premies who spend their rent money to go see him and they donate. It shouldn't be like that.

The weird thing for me now especially (but has been) how to tell others I care about how good K is but leave M out of it. I guess I would feel too guilty still teaching them the techniques since I made a promise all those years ago and I am one who honors my promises.

*Denise
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Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 11:17:31 (EDT)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: honoring promises
Message:
You said: The weird thing for me now especially (but has been) how to tell others I care about how good K is but leave M out of it. I guess I would feel too guilty still teaching them the techniques since I made a promise all those years ago and I am one who honors my promises.

A friend of mine who loves to gossip (but loves having the inside story even more) once told me that if he finds something out on his own, he feels free to tell anyone about it, but if the person involved tells him and asks for his discretion, he will honor that secret.

How that relates to leaving M (for me) is that I found out all on my own that the techniques and the whole eastern/indian trip does not belong to maraji. In fact, many other groups do it in a much more palatable manner...or maybe i just didn't get close enough to smell the real bullshit.

At any rate, your statement about honoring promises struck a chord in me since I felt the same way so many years ago. Maybe I am just rationalizing when I say that M didn't keep his promises to me, so why should I keep mine? But the fact is, I fully intended to keep the secret until one day...

A young man who I remember since toddlerhood...his family and my family...our parents were college-mates. Anyway, I was a few years out of M's cult and a few years older than him...he was in his late teens and very eager for some kind of spiritual knowledge. His parents were agnostic and he felt that he had missed something...could not relate to others' experiences of religion at all...traditional organized religion or cult-trips. He was yearning for a mystical experience. If I had still been a premie, he would have been putty in my hands. I tried my best to warn him away from the worst groups. And finally, I just gave him the techniques...try this, you may like it, but know that the experience is inside you...I didn't give it to you and no one else can do that.

I felt incredibly frightened at the time, but afterwards it was a big relief when the world didn't fall apart around me. The fact is, M only has power if you give it to him. That's why he doesn't want you to practice k without him.

Welcome to real life -- without m masquerading as god =)

Love, Victoria
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Date: Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 10:59:21 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Welcome back Denise
Message:
I don't agree with everything here and am happy I am one that is able to experience 'that place' (due to physiological reasons or whatever), but also couldn't deny some of the negative things about M brought up here.

I think 'that place' is very definitely physiological. As someone interested in psychology, you might want to do some studying of 'evolutionary' psychology to see how our biology ties into our consciousness and emotions. I also think EP is going to become increasingly important to psychotherapists if it hasn't already. If you look into it, I think you'll enjoy it.

I think the reason why 'that place' has been so elusive to me is because of all the guru worship that was encouraged instead of just letting the experience of Knowledge be what you get from the meditation. I know with some other forms of meditation I've practiced, I was able to draw some peace and heightened awareness from them, but, overall, there are other activities I prefer to engage in.

Also, I think it's been recommended to you already, but there's a book called 'The Guru Papers' which you should find interesting. It presents an enlightening profile of the guru/disciple relationship which, again, as someone interested in psychology, you should find very revealing.

If you do look more into evolutionary psychology and pick up 'The Guru Papers', I hope you enjoy both.
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Date: Sun, Apr 04, 1999 at 21:52:20 (EDT)
From: Miloochie
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Great answer
Message:
Jim guessed wrong.

No surprise to me at all, Denise. I could have bet a billion $ on that one. You just needed some time to sort out the details for yourself, that's all.

No, I actually asked because it (your statement) was coming off so badly, IMO. 'Like anyone who posts here (anyone), was being toyed with. Well, the cat's out of the bag now and your mischevous nature is in full swing.

Hell, you even told Jim to 'Screw you!' Why do I get the strong feeling you just LOVED DOING THAT!? A few weeks ago, I thought things were so burning between you two that your husband was probably getting seriously jealous.

But you gotta admit, '...innocuous ingenue-type questions...' Hilarious! Can you imagine if Jim was a professional de-programmer back in the 70's? There you are, strapped to a chair in some basement with the windows blocked out -- hell, I'd give up my Guru in the first hour.

I guess I should congratulate you, Denise, now that you've made it official. Welcome back to the living. ;-)

Oh, one more thing. You don't look like Rosanne do you? I'm betting you're very slight, with light hair?

Miloochie

Hey Jim...do you like Guiness? 'Just a ferry ride away.
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Date: Sun, Apr 04, 1999 at 22:20:50 (EDT)
From: Nim
Email: None
To: Miloochie
Subject: Great answer
Message:
Hell, you even told Jim to 'Screw you!'
Wrong Miloochie, she told me 'Screw you!'
That seems alot easier for Denise to do than deal with Jim's questions.
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Date: Sun, Apr 04, 1999 at 22:43:16 (EDT)
From: Miloochie
Email: None
To: Nim
Subject: Great confusion
Message:
Hi Nim,

Well, she addressed it to you, referred to Jim's guess from the previous message, and now she says she did post to you (below). My alibi is I was still laughing from the Charlie Manson thread below, so I throw myself on the mercy of the court.

That seems alot easier for Denise to do than deal with Jim's questions.

Well, she can speak for herself (if she feels like it), but I think she simply didn't have answers for herself yet. Nim, I still go through sorting out stuff every day and I have to expect that some may go on for quite awhile -- separating the intellectual from the organic (reframing personal beliefs). M did what so many in his game do, rob from every place he can think of, covering the waterfront. It takes time to sort out what was crap and what is useful and available anywhere.

I still think there are a lot of misunderstandings that have occured for some people in regards to Denise -- partial message quotes, out of context, etc. that have led some to draw innacurate conclusions, IMO. (i.e. g's mom's Jagdeo deposition was 'hearsay').

Miloochie
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Date: Sun, Apr 04, 1999 at 23:11:38 (EDT)
From: Nim
Email: None
To: Miloochie
Subject: Great confusion
Message:
Hi Miloochie,
First off, I hope my views on Denise's presence on this forum doesn't bother you too much and I appreciate you taking the time to post me.
I agree with you that we're all involved in a process of seperating the crap from that which is useful, and I can also understand when you say
Well, she can speak for herself (if she feels like it), but I think she simply didn't have answers for herself yet.
but in the case of her failure to respond to Jim's questions(whom BTW she says is 'ok'...she's just bugged by his communication style) she could have said so.
To so totally avoid someone on this forum who has gone to considerable lengths to dialogue with her is kind of weird for an intelligent human being and professional therapist such as she is. Especially now that she says that Jim is actually Ok.
If he's ok, why not reciprocate with a meaningful attempt to communicate? I don't believe you need to have all the answers to do that.
I'll leave it at that for now, Miloochie
Take care,
Nim
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Date: Sun, Apr 04, 1999 at 23:42:00 (EDT)
From: Miloochie
Email: None
To: Nim
Subject: Great confusion
Message:
Ok, but you have to go back to when Jim started a thread with 'Will Denise become another SHP?' Attacking her beliefs had turned to attacking her. I put myself in that position and believed I would have withdrawn also.

I project onto all of this (please Denise straighten me out if I'm way off target here), because I was re-experiencing a lot of pain, stress, upheaval, etc. when I arrived here, just shortly after Denise did. It was like I was going through the whole process that took years before, all in a matter of days/weeks. It's a confusing, ground shaking time. A time when healing has to be the first order over debate, etc. IMHO.

And not everyone is thick-skinned (certainly not at the point when they are pulling the leeches of life draining conceptual dogma from their very selves). The love affair with one's guru is all incompassing, even more than one with a person, as you and all of us here know. I think I've got to remember what 'that time' is like if I'm going to help others through it.

Yes, she seems to be ignoring Jim, but even inadvertantly is responding to him (grin). I promised Billy a response last week and still haven't gotten around to it yet -- maybe he thinks I could care less about responding to him. He should, because when I do, I don't think he's gonna like what I have to say.

Denise asked about a question that Jim posted before he left just recently (this was when Jim was on vacation). It was specific to having a good experience with the med tech. and not following M. -- referring to me stating that and Zac a ditto. The responses to her question were loud berating of her not accepting M was a fraud, etc. and that she was 'something' derogatory...can't remember what. She wrote that it didn't seem like a good time to be here and I had to agree.

There are some comments that Denise made a few weeks ago that I thought were odd, if not foolish (something about you guys are from the 70's and I'm from this time so it doesn't relate for me...), but I took them with a big grain of salt at the time (she was getting it full barrel from a number or people). She was accused of making money as a monitor for M, etc.

I'm certain most, if not all of this confusion will clear with some more time.

Lastly, I think a person who gets farther away from M, or his kind, finds more courage again to stand up for themselves. Hello Denise?

Miloochie
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Date: Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 00:11:45 (EDT)
From: Nim
Email: None
To: Miloochie
Subject: Great respect
Message:
Even though I am more skeptical about Denise than you are, to the point where I really believe she has a hidden agenda here, and I'll be very clear about it...that hidden agenda has to do with subverting this forum's effectiveness in exposing m for who he is IMO... I genuinely have great respect for the position that you are expressing here, and the sensitvity and understanding which you are bringing to bear on this matter.
As well as the sensitvity and understanding that you've expressed in all your posts.
Again I'm being sincere when I say that I really appreciate your contribution to and presence on this forum. I'm sure its been helpful to many.
I agree with you when you say:
Lastly, I think a person who gets farther away from M, or his kind, finds more courage again to stand up for themselves. Hello Denise?
Unfortunately, if telling me 'Screw you!' when I never have spoken a foul word to her, or saying that alot of exes here should be on prozac or in therapy(totally wierd coming from a professional therapist as she claims she is), because like myself they're wary of her presence on this forum...well when it comes to courage, then Denise may have along way to go.
But like yourself I do hope she finds it.
Miloochie, you also said,
I'm certain most, if not all of this confusion will clear with some more time.
You bet. I believe that too.
Thanks again Miloochie.
Nim
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Date: Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 19:14:01 (EDT)
From: Miloochie
Email: None
To: Nim
Subject: Great respect to you
Message:
Hi Nim,

I'm stopping my work temporarily because I just wanted to thank you for those kind words. You are toooooo kind. Really. I have very much enjoyed your posts, also.

I feel I'm learning a great deal about myself and how to better converse with other humans by the time spent and input given here, including when I must call a spade a spade -- be even tough, forthright, angry, etc. I hope I can see when I've made mistakes and learn from them too.

I do get saddened when I see people like yourself and Denise scrap for reasons that seem to me, more misuderstandings than actual differences (i.e. it seems that she was responding with 'Screw you' to Jim's post and not you).

I think she mentioned visualizing how Mili looked, while responding to my question of what she looked like. Mili hasn't posted here in awhile, or sparsely. Did she mean Miloochie? She has recently revealed she is brand new to computing, five months, and perhaps that is part of some mixed up identities, etc. Perhaps she can pipe in and clarify that. I remember her actually stating something like 'Nim, I think you're cool...' 'In the archives somewhere.

BTW, from every post I've read of Denise's, I would want to welcome such (Screw me) if she wrote that to me, simply because it is the first time she has actually blurted out a strong feeling. I could be reading a lot into that, but I haven't seen her do anything like it before in the weeks she has posted here. It seemed to be pure honest anger...that or maybe it was high-ended facetiousness -- who knows! Interesting, anyway.

The 'Prozac' crack was, I think meant for a few that only she is aware of and had that possibility of insulting some she didn't intend to verbally slap. It was, IMO, out of place for someone who is a therapist, though. Yes, I agree. 'More for a stand-up comic. Yet, I and many here have used that kind of verbage and much more rough wordings at different times.

As for respect... I have a great deal of respect for so many who post here...too many to name them all. I believe Jim is one who gets a lot of misunderstood grief from others. Oh yes, there are times when his absolutely brilliant arguments can seem to me, suddenly weakened by an off-handed crack. There are other times, I look at it little closer and can see him having a blast with some VERY dry humor. I think he is someone who has his own personal feelings in regards to M and is also a passionate, committed, and very caring person. I realize that some people will never recognize that, no matter what is said, because of the way he sometimes communicates and nothing to do with the content.

I wonder, as time goes on, how the unique qualities of different prem/pwks who jump ship (no, no, no pun intended SHP) will be able to contribute, discuss, have fun here (even the silly, fun stuff) with those who are here having to be in battle mode, fighting off the truly offensive cracks of those who are definitely trying to impede the documenting of history, sorting/exposing facts, and bringing M to facing the reality of his deeds. It is such an interesting forum that covers so many different subjects and dynamics.

BTW, my apologies to others for being highly instrumental in side tracking this thread. Perhaps it can begin again above and get back on track -- RICO, etc.

Have a great day, Nim. I gotta make some money!!!

Miloochie
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Date: Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 00:23:32 (EDT)
From: Nim
Email: None
To: Miloochie
Subject: Great respect to you
Message:
I do get saddened when I see people like yourself and Denise scrap for reasons that seem to me, more misuderstandings than actual differences (i.e. it seems that she was responding with 'Screw you' to Jim's post and not you).
I've felt that sadness from you regarding some Denise scraps with other exes, but to my knowledge there has never been a scrap between myself and Denise.
There have been two occasions when I posed, what I would agree were confronting questions to Denise.
The first was in regard to the Jagdeo matter and what I considered to be Denise's failure to recognize m's responsibility in the matter, when I felt she was more into discussing stuff like baragons and charanamrit ad nauseum. (You may recall that Rick posted a very powerful post to Denise on that matter called 'Dumb Nostalgia'. Its in Rogers 'Best of' in the House of Drek.)
In a post adressed to everyone, she simply dealt with my question by saying,
'And Nim, I thought you were cool'
Apparently I had lost whatever coolness I had in her eyes, but speaking of being cool...that's cool with me.
I didn't bother replying to that statement.
The second 'incident' if you will, between myself and Denise occured right in this thread, and if you note she HAS made it very clear that the Screw you! comment was indeed intended for me, and not Jim as you have suggested.
That too is cool with me.
In two lengthy posts, which IMO were very friendly, I appealed to her to consider m's infamous and very recent 'principles' quote.
All I got from her was what I felt, was a very flat vibed response, something like,
'Nim , I'd have to see the rest of the satsang to get the context.'
I still believe the quote stands on its own.
In case you don't remember the quote please let me repeat it for the benefit of premie lurkers as IMO, I beleive its a very powerful statement not only from m, but about m, and worth repeating
Do you want to hold onto your principles? You want to know what's going to happen to you? I'll tell you whats going to happen? Your ship is going to sink! You want to hold onto your principles? I'll tell you what's going to happen. You're going to die!!
So there it is , Miloochie, a review of my 'relationship' with Denise, at least from my perspective, as it has occurred on this forum. (And you can be sure that we have nothing going off the forum:):):)
Plus, m's 'principles' quote to boot.
BTW, my apologies to others for being highly instrumental in side tracking this thread. Perhaps it can begin again above and get back on track -- RICO, etc.

Have a great day, Nim. I gotta make some money!!!


No apologies needed. Sometimes we may be able to learn more from a little digression than rigidly staying on a given course.
And re the money Miloochie, I got to get some rest so I can make some tomorrow.
Thank you again.
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Date: Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 12:03:25 (EDT)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: Miloochie
Subject: Great confusion re: Jim
Message:
Miloochie,

You're right when you guessed I was communicating with Jim through not speaking to him. I happen to disagree with him on the issue he raised and am not into getting into any mud slinging just to express my opinion (which, if different, must be wrong). I see the setup and refuse to fall for it. I don't believe in he really wanted my answer, anyway, or I would have given it.

The bad part about communicating through the net is that one is not able to see body language and voice tone cues to determine someone's mood/attitude and it leaves one guessing as to their intent at times. This can lead to confusion and miscommunication between people.

Thank you for letting me know where you were coming from. I think your perceptions of situations you brought up in your post were accurate.

Re: standing up for myself--depends on the situation, but I can and have been very assertive in areas of my life where I felt it was necessary. In fact, one of my friends found it hard to believe I could feel threatened testifying in court recently (I knew the other attorney was going to try to rip me apart as trial stategy) because she says I have so much 'guts'. People respond differently in different situations.

Enjoy your day (It's 75 degrees (F) and sunny here, so I will!)
Gotta go outside and play now.

*Denise
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Date: Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 13:17:53 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Great confusion re: Jim
Message:
Denise,

Unlike Nim, I can't see any reason to doubt your sincerity here and do congratulate you for being able to extricate yourself from the cult to the extent you have. K's ability to 'feel good' is still a big mystery to me and, as you know, I assume that the entire Hindu religious trip it comes from is hokey superstition. Obviously, there's something soothing about trying to jam your thoughts a bit. People must have experimented with lots of cheesy meditation techniques over the centuries. I mean what else are you going to do with your mind? You can use it to think or, if you didn't know better, you could get into trying to put it to sleep so you could leap-frog right over it into the many welcoming arms of a Hindu love god. That practise can feel good, I guess. The question is, is it real? What is it?

Anyway, back to what you and I were talking about before, I don't think it's fair for you to say I didn't seem to really want an answer from you. Sure, my question was rhetorical. I know -- or at least I believe -- that Maharaji discourages the 'study' of him, his trip or k. I just wanted you to say as much so I could then argue further. There's nothing wrong with asking rhetorical questions, as far I can tell.

But whatever. Glad you're coming to terms with all this. Honestly.
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Date: Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 20:55:12 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Denise and all
Subject: confusion and leaving M
Message:
I think Shp muddied up the waters quite a bit.

It's hard to say how much it's appropriate to argue with premies on the forum, but some people make it obvious that something is needed above and beyond being polite.

Still, it takes a toll on our communication, not that we aren't kind of argumentative. It's a sign of democratic process.
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Date: Sun, Apr 04, 1999 at 22:21:22 (EDT)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: Miloochie
Subject: Great answer, sorry Jim
Message:
OOps, I meant the 'screw you' for Nim, not Jim. In some strange way I think Jim's ok, even though I don't care for his communication style.

How do I look? Well, lots of people tell me I look like Mariah Carey. I guess so, but I am petite (short) and slim with long straight brown hair (with a little copper color, too) and lighter skin (I'm white) than Mariah. Just picture her with 5 inches less leg and it's roughly me.

It's funny but I always picture people here in my mind and they probably look nothing like I think. I picture Mili in my mind when he posts and it's kinda fun.

Is Jim English? Just curious. * Denise
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Date: Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 23:53:26 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Oh, THANKS!!
Message:
In some strange way I think Jim's ok, even though I don't care for his communication style.

Really, Denise? Really?? Gosh..
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Date: Sun, Apr 04, 1999 at 21:18:49 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: Denise & counsel
Subject: RICO are his premies ethical?
Message:
'He explained to me that just because Elizabeth Dole was paid '$90,000 by the Red Cross last year as an employee, that doesn't 'mean she's doing anything fraudulant provided that she declared 'her income to the IRS and the Red Cross disclosed her salary.

Thanks for the enlightening answer Denise.

Now, could you ask your council where an someone could find Guru Maharaj Ji's income from Elan Vital starting in 1971 through the present?

Can we just call EV and remind them to disclose the Lord's salary for whatever it is he does.

Respectfully,
Mary M
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Date: Sun, Apr 04, 1999 at 22:29:35 (EDT)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: RICO are his premies ethical?
Message:
I don't know how to get M's salary. I was just responding to the original proposal to sue using RICO. I didn't even say you couldn't sue using RICO, just not in the scenerio described as far as I understood. Legal issues intrigue me so I just presented the written scenerio to my private counsel (attorney) and he gave me the information I posted, that's all. It was just a factual answer, not an endorsement of any viewpoint.

Respectfully, *Denise
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Date: Sun, Apr 04, 1999 at 22:48:11 (EDT)
From: gerry the terrible
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: More horse hockey, Dee
Message:
Legal issues intrigue me so I just presented the written scenerio to my private counsel (attorney) and he gave me the information I posted, that's all. It was just a factual answer, not an endorsement of any viewpoint.

First of all, who is this guy you ''consulted?'' A criminal lawyer versed in such stuff as RICO, or some hack you hired to make sure you didn't get beat in the real estate contract you signed?

''Private counsel'' do you know how snotty and stuffy that sounds?

You tell me to grow up. I say ''get real.''
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Date: Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 03:43:49 (EDT)
From: Roger Drek
Email: None
To: gerry the terrible
Subject: RICO is criminal, but also
Message:
Historically, RICO was created and used to bust up the Mob. However, its application has expanded to many venues. Don't quote me here, but I believe that it was used by Planned Parenthood against Operation Rescue (the anti-abortionist or pro-lifers.)

Doing a search on RICO (gotta be careful to avoid Puerto Rico) shows many cases all across the board.

Again, the Elizabeth Dole example, IMO, is not relevant to Maharaji because I believe that he is not supposed to profit from Elan Vital and maybe he doesn't. However, I firmly believe that he has profited handsomely through various illegal and unethical activities.

Even if the civil case went nowhere (got dismissed as meritless) it would allow for the subpoenaing of financial documents which Maharaji and EV would have fits over and I think that a lot of us would like to know how the operation really works. They operate under such a dark cloak of secrecy that I believe that brought to the light of day could get people out and prevent people from getting into it.

While many of us had some really beautiful experiences in Knowledge, I think that it is very difficult to say that the overall experience was not harmful. If it's my ego or a crusade I'd like to think that helping people avoid the damage that I and others incurred that would be enough.

Sure, Maharaji has lightened up, but the potential is there. And really what is that potential? It's the little premie secret that Maharaji is God, Lord of the Universe, and infallible. There's no doubt in my mind that that's what it's all about no matter what they try to call it. And it is sick, not divine.
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Date: Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 13:22:02 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Roger Drek
Subject: RICO is criminal, but also
Message:
Roger, I think using RICO is problematic for anything other than the financial stuff. The whole concept and experience of 'knowledge' is so subjective and differs so much from person to person, that I doubt a court would allow a case to continue based on 'harm caused by knowledge.' Also, it has all these religious overtones and the courts are loathe to get involved in that stuff, unless it's the financial side, you can show a patter of abuse, etc.

But the financial stuff is another story. Also, I understand that damages under RICO are mandatorily trebled, and you can also recover your costs and attorneys fees.

Also, under RICO (Federal Satutes and most state RICO statutes), you have to show a 'pattern' of rackateering activity, which I think is just two or more acts in the same category over a 10-year period. In the federal statute, I think there are 20 some rackateering offenses, but among them is mail fraud and wire fraud, and it's hard to think of a business activity, including DLM and EV, that didn't/doesn't use either the mail or the telephone.

I work in insurance law and RICO has been used to go after insurance companies for refusing to pay claims or misrepresentation in selling insurance. There was a case in the mid-80s, Backer v. Underwriters at Lloyds, in which insureds claimed Lloyds had a pattern of denying valid insurance claims, through the mail. The court said that kind of claim under RICO was valid.

Also, I think you're right. The Supreme Court said Planned Parenthood's claim against Operation Rescue under RICO was also proper. The claim was a pattern of activity to disrupt Planned Parenthood clinics and intimidate and threaten employees and patients.
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Date: Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 15:50:55 (EDT)
From: Roger Drek
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: RICO is criminal, but also
Message:
Indeed, being misled about Knowledge won't cut it. Perhaps, the area of financial or other contributions might be valid. And maybe the more likely and lucrative avenue would be a case involving slave laborers in any of the so called businesses where the organization used independent contractor status to avoid taxes and paying minimum wage. Also, the wrongful termination of employees.

I think that Maharaji/DLM/DUO/EV has been very dirty. It has a history of skirting the law and misleading people.

Perhaps, the courts and prosecutors might take interest because hitting a high profile organization sets an example.

Like I said, I only play the part of a DOJ prosecutor on my television series.

Was that Lloyds of London the fire insurance deal?
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Date: Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 16:49:01 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Roger Drek
Subject: Slave Labor
Message:
And maybe the more likely and lucrative avenue would be a case involving slave laborers in any of the so called businesses where the organization used independent contractor status to avoid taxes and paying minimum wage.

I agree that this is one of the most egregious things about the cult. I remember living in the Chicago ashram, for example, and about 5 or 6 of the ashram premies worked for the two Rainbow Grocery stores in Chicago for TINY salaries and NO benefits. It was considered a service to the Lord of the Universe. The rest of us in the Chicago ashram, who had 'regular' jobs, had to subsidize the expenses of those premies so they could do 'service.' I remember I worked as a paralegal for a big Chicago law firm for a couple of years while I lived in the ashram there. And although I was hardly bringing in a big salary, probably about $25,000 back in the 70s, it was one of the largest in the house and my salary dutifully helped pay for the expenses of the Rainbow grocery premies.

I was also on the Board of Directors of Rainbow for awhile. I don't think Rainbow, at least while I was there until the middle of 1979, had any legal connection to DLM, Maharaji, etc. It was a separate corporation, organized as a coop. We did make donations to M, I think, but most of the money went into expanding the business. For example, I remember going to the Bank of Ravenswood with Steve Dorris and getting a construction loan to remodel the building we bought on Morse Avenue for the second store, in addition to the one on Wellington. At that time, Rainbow had built up a surplus of over $50,000 and had the money to qualify for the loans and make the capital investments.

But then I remember Dorris went to Miami, shortly after I did, and was put in charge of food for festivals. Maybe Rainbow got incorporated into DLM at that time. I'm not sure.

But maybe the REAL target regarding Rainbow, at least in Chicago, is whoever made the money when those stores and the warehouse were sold. They are the real thieves -- they are the ones who benefited from the slave labor, and people like me who subsidized the slave laborers.

I was trying to think of Chicago ashram premies who worked at Rainbow:

Helen Taylor (a real sweetheart)
Ryan Reisman (a Beverly Hills rich kid)
Mark Miller (A very intense guy)
[Blonde tall guy whose name I can't recall](a very mellow guy)
[Another, shorter guy who came from the Denver Rainbow]
Val Yoder (another sweetheart and former housemother)
And there were at least two or three more, but I'm not recalling names at the moment

There were also community premies who worked for Rainbow, and I could never understand how they possibly survived on the minuscule income they got.
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Date: Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 21:55:17 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Slaves Statute of Limitations
Message:
Unfortunately, the Statute of Limitations has probably run out on this avenue. However, and I don't know nothing about this, but I suspect that RICO is written and interpreted to extend statute of limitations if there is a pattern of fraud. However, the Supreme Court ruled on such an interpretation as each circuit seemed to have it's own. However the ruling only overruled the circuit court or something like that.

However, from Mary M.'s Elan Vital post with Elan Vital it shows that Rainbow Grocery was a registered tradename or something like that. Although, it appears that the name was withdrawn in 1977. So, one does have to wonder what the connection was between Rainbow Grocery and Maharaji.

Basically, we might have a hard case to prove, but damn if we don't know what the hell was going on.
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Date: Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 13:55:22 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Rainbow Grocery - Slave Labor
Message:
Hey JW,

Rainbow Grocery, Ltd was not a co-op by any stretch of even our fertile imaginations.

From 3/5/1974 to 11/11/77 it is listed under the Elan Vital Corporation.

From 9/28/79 through 7/31/95 it is listed under the Prem Mark Corporation.

It was then acquired by United Natural Foods Inc. on 8/1/1995.

I haven't found the years 77-79 but expect to soon.

Michael Dettmers & cronies most likely had their fingers in this pie also, as one of the officers listed for the corporations shows up on all Dettmers Companies too.

What an interesting tangled web they wove!

Mary M
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Date: Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 16:50:09 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: Which Rainbow?
Message:
Mary:

There were a number of different Rainbow stores in different cities and, at least until 1979, there were not legally related to each other. There were Rainbows in Chicago, Denver, Seattle, San Francisco, Boston, and I think there was even a store in Malibu, and probably more places. The Rainbows in Chicago were never a part of DLM or Elan Vital. After I left the cult in 1983, I don't know what happened to them.

Between 1974 and 1977 Elan Vital didn't even exist, so that isn't possible.

I think the name you are referring to is the Denver store, which did change its name to Prem Mark.
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Date: Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 18:23:35 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Which Rainbow?
Message:
Hey JW,

These were all located in the Colorado Public Records. However, it appears that whether a company was in Colorado, Malibu, Miami, Boston, Chicago the same Officers keep appearing:

Dettmers
Wood
Nathan
Jacobs

It's taking time but I'm slowly piecing this all together.

;-)
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Date: Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 18:48:34 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: I Don't Think So Mary
Message:
I think you are looking at the corporate records for Divine Light Mission, which changed its name to Elan Vital sometime in the 80s. The Rainbow in Denver may have been owned by DLM, but I don't think any of the other Rainbows were, even though they were registered in different states under the same name, and I'm sure the Chicago stores weren't, at least before 1983.
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Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 10:12:01 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: I Don't Think So Mary
Message:
JW,

Maybe so. I've found it easier to search using an Agents or Officers name that way I get NationWide info back.

Cheers!
Mary
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Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 10:23:33 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: DLM to EV
Message:
HI JW,

You're right DLM had a name change at least in Florida in 1983.

CORP NAME : ELAN VITAL, INC.
EVENT TYPE FILED EFFECTIVE DESCRIPTION
DATE DATE
------------------------------------------------------------------
NAME CHANGE 03/24/1983 OLD NAME WAS : DIVINE LIGHT MISSION
AMENDMENT , INC.
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Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 13:16:58 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: Right Mary
Message:
I got the California corporate records for Elan Vital about a year ago. They show EV as a Colorado corporation, previously called Diving Light Mission, that had a name change in 1986 to Elan Vital, licensed to operate in California in 1972. It's strange, you can see the original corporate record signed by Bob Mishler as president of Divine Light Mission.
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Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 13:24:34 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Robert Jacobs?
Message:
Hi JW,

Do you know who Robert A Jacobs of One Manhattan Plaza was/is?

Thanks,
M
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Date: Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 12:55:47 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Denise & counsel
Subject: Get Real, Denise
Message:
He explained to me that just because Elizabeth Dole was paid $90,000 by the Red Cross last year as an employee, that doesn't mean she's doing anything fraudulant provided that she declared her income to the IRS and the Red Cross disclosed her salary. He said that a non-profit organization can pay its employees with donated money and it's legal.

I'm sure Liddy was paid a lot more than a piddling $90,000 for being diretor of the Red Cross. I would bet it was more like $250,000. But that having been said, you and your consel miss the point. Whatever the Red Cross pays Ms. Dole, it has to be disclosed publicly, as a non-profit charity, that is required. Have you ever seen any information on what money Maharaji gets from any of the organizations he is associated with, where, exactly your donations go, who else is paid a salary, etc.?

The issue with the fraud and tax illegality is that DLM and EV, non-profit organizations under the tax code, have used their resources to raise money for an individual, Prem Pal Singh Rawat. At least that was going on when I was involved and I wouldn't be surprised if it still is. In fact, one ex DLM legal department person said 60% of DLM's income went to support Maharaji and his grossly luxurious lifestyle. That is illegal, violates the tax code, and is a fraud on the people making the donations, many of whom believed, as they were told, that the money was going to spread knowledge and help bring peace to the world, not purchasing gold plumbing and $6,000 suits for Mr. Rawat.

His example to me was that if I donated $100 to the Red Cross for its charity work and I find out that Elizabeth Dole is making $90,000 coming out of the donations to the Red Cross, I can't claim an injury because I would have been out the $100 whether she had been paid or not.

You can't claim injury probably because you KNOW that Dole is paid a salary. It's disclosed, publicly, as required by law. Now if Maharaji and his corrupt organization would do the same, I might agree with you.
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Date: Sat, Apr 03, 1999 at 18:29:10 (EST)
From: bb
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: Zac and JW
Message:
You were talking in a thread down below and I just caught up
with it.
Your question was about the tour with slides from about 95.
It was a money and proragation presentation.
One figure I remember was that there was a small line about
Legal expenses and it was over 1 million.
I thought at the time that it was that high because he had
bought off an expose that Someone had written.
I did somehow hear a rumour like that.
I will have to review my memory to try to remember who
told me.
So when the legal figure showed up like that I automatically
connected it to that and thought he wrote it off as a legal
expense. Honest. That is what I thunk at the time.
I think I mentioned this way back when in the forum.

Also, My wife reminded me (and I couldn't belive her at first)
but when she was an aspirant there was a web site that was
against m and she heard others talk about it.
My guess is that it would have been an AOL account
perhaps. Just because they were around then right?
She seems pretty confident about it and perhaps that person
will show up someday.
She reminded me way back in the early forum era.
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Date: Sat, Apr 03, 1999 at 22:13:19 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: Zac and JW
Message:
Ok BB, so when was your wife an aspirant?
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Date: Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 10:23:49 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: Zac: regarding ethics
Message:
Am I still in the ethics thread? I am trying to catch up with the forum and this thread has gone all over the place but I want to get back to this ethical question that Zac brought up. Zac, one of the things about the watered down westernized version of Hinduism is that one is supposed to reach a transcendent place which is above the things of this world (including ethics). I think this sure made it easy for M to justify anything he did or does. It's kind of sick to be above the law, and above ethics. In answer to your original question: NO there are no ethics whatsover in M or in his organization.
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Date: Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 18:05:48 (EDT)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Zac: regarding ethics
Message:
That's what I think and it bothers me and I don't think premies have even remotely considered the fact and I hope they will soon.

The secrecy, swiss accounts, undisclosed financials; what's wrong with this picture?
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Date: Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 19:42:49 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: Zac: regarding ethics
Message:
I don't think premies really give it a chance to gel in their minds until they have developed some kind of ethical, moral code for themselves and then get some kind of objectivity from M long enough to think it all through. Or maybe someone they care about and admire kicks their butt real good.
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Date: Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 00:13:55 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Zac: regarding ethics
Message:
That's what really bugged me - lack of ethics. This meant zilch compassion for any one. I think premies especially pams would definately tread on anyone to get to M's holy feet.
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Date: Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 08:01:53 (EDT)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: Liz: regarding ethics
Message:
Many premies climbing the EV ladder will put a knife in the back of one of their friends in order to move ahead. In recent years the infighting in US communities has been vicious. Communities have split in half and people refused to cooperate with each other. Maharaji's done nothing wrong of course.
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Date: Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 11:23:17 (EDT)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: regarding ethics
Message:
No kidding, Zac. Communities I've been in have always been dysfunctional in some way or other. The games they play with each other are sad. Can't tell you how many times I've gotten messed with or left out through the years and how much gossip I've heard about others in the community and seen the backstabbing. I put up with it because I enjoyed K so much, but it always saddened me it had to be like that. It always seemed to me that K should sweeten and mellow one out where those games weren't necessary and I always figured I could tell which premies were really reaching 'that place' based on their actions toward one another.
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Date: Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 13:10:17 (EDT)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: regarding ethics
Message:
The endless battles in my community are what drove me away before reading this page.

You know Maharaji said recently 'I'm really good at what I do.'

I beg to differ. He may be an excellent public speaker, but the organization is set-up for disaster. He runs it from the middle down. I don't believe he knows what is going on in the communities and prefers vacationing or his many other pursuits. So M has middle managers who couldn't get a job at Arby's running the organization while the people at the local level who know what should be done in their communities are completely disempowered.
His community managers are selected and approved by the middle managers instead of from the community so you have local mini-tyrants who don't have to answer to anyone within the community and when they talk to the middle managers, who aren't around, they tell em what they want to hear. Any no name premie who comments is completely disregarded and taken as a bongo.

The local communities are the trenches where knowledge would be propagated but it's a total and complete failure as evidenced by the numbers.

Yet M can tell the premies he is really good at what he does and against all observation and practical experience they believe him.

I simply don't get it.
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Date: Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 14:53:36 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: regarding ethics
Message:
His community managers are selected and approved by the middle managers instead of from the community so you have local mini-tyrants who don't have to answer to anyone within the community and when they talk to the middle managers, who aren't around, they tell em what they want to hear.

Zac, what do 'community managers' do? I mean isn't it just having small 'video events' and maybe telephoning people? Isn't that about it? How can you build an empire or be a 'mini-tyrant' over something so tiny?
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Date: Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 20:02:14 (EDT)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Community Managers
Message:
They are called City Contact's. And really who gives a shit, but they control all service in the community and any really nice service to do directly with M they scoff up for themselves. They plan potential events with M and are privy to the lastest inside info.

One has to clear any idea one may have with them even to the extent of rearranging the seating in the hall. They appoint aspirant coordinators, security chief's etc. They enforce the foolish rules like no speaking at intro events other than to turn on the TV. They seem to have just enough power to keep the locals from kicking them out and doing things that make sense. They also have choice service opportunities at large events and if you are nice they can get you one.

Maybe I had particularly negative experiences, but I know that it caused the City of Cambridge to split off from the City of Boston and form it's own community.
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Date: Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 21:54:54 (EDT)
From: Stranger in the Back Row
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: Community Weirdness and Ethics
Message:
Having been involved since the old days, I actually enjoyed moving to a new community in 1994 and slipping in and out of the video events very discreetly and not get involved with the fucking premies at all.

Limiting involvement to the back row of the video venue keeps you away from the local politics to some degree, but not completely because it is so thick and uptight with the number of coordinators outnumbering attendees by two to one.

Also, I think that premies who have maintained their distance from EV and Maharaji don't have a clue to extent of the ethical lapses that EV and Maharaji are prone to. It is quite apparent from accounts on the Forum and my limited personal knowledge that the closer to the top you get the stranger it becomes.

I think that it is like coachroaches coming out of the woodwork when it comes to a major event like Long Beach or Miami and most of those people probably attend very few videos and are little impacted by a local empire. They might, pay for a seat, buy videos and trinkets by mail or at the event and that's it. They never really get a whiff of the stench of that lurks backstage.

But, when your back there doing some super secret service for Maharaji you feel so damn privileged.
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Date: Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 22:24:56 (EDT)
From: dv
Email: None
To: Stranger in the Back Row
Subject: Community Weirdness and Ethics
Message:
That last Miami program was so weird. Premies just look and act so weird, even more so when around each other.
i think premies begin to take on m's personality after worshipping him for decades. March around with a dour expression on your face and make sarcastic remarks and try to look cool. I hung around the security office for a while, what a joke!

One thing I learned at that program- the majority of donations for the event come from people who don't even attend.
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Date: Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 23:54:06 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: Can you explain?
Message:
the majority of donations for the event
come from people who don't even attend.


What do you mean by this? Do people send in money to get tickets and then don't show up?
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Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 00:46:04 (EDT)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Can you explain?
Message:
One problem with local politics is the complete lack of involvement in anyway by anyone whole hasn't been around for 20 years or more. There is no new blood. Newer people have no idea as Denise has stated, and she's been around for 16 yrs, that helping locally is part of the deal. The people involved have been intertwined for way to long.

I know some of these people so well I could write biographies and prefer not to get into individual anecdotes for obvious reasons. But suffice to say without new blood things can get pretty wierd.
Imagine living in the same ashram with 30 people, big house, for 20-25 years. Yikes! You'd have to meditate!
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Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 10:22:04 (EDT)
From: dv
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Can you explain?
Message:
It was a surprising comment made by several extremely reliabler sources that the majority of contributions sent in for the program were from premies who did not plan to attend. If I remember correctly, the dinero required to stay in the black for the program was somewhere between 200 to 250K. They came up a little short, but I heard someone mention another source would cover the remainder. It seems premies that don't regularly contribute will send in money to support programs. Maybe they feel safer knowing the cash goes to program/propagation than EV/Visions/Golden Toilets.
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Date: Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 20:12:16 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Paraphrasing the summary
Message:
Well, I guess that's karma. What I posted but which never made it was the latest report from ELK on Maharaji's last talk in India yesterday. As usual I pointed out the ridiculously indecipherable mangled language, opaque even for cult jargon, and some blatant inconsistencies (for example, at one point Maharaji warns that people who don't practise will 'regret' that fact at deat. Moments later, however, he's chiding people who threaten others with hell in the hereafter. Go figure.). And throughout I vented my usual splenetics at him. I figure if he's going to read anything here, it's going to be our commentary on his own words. Whatever.

Anyway, what I'd like to repeat of my post are the many references I made to the various complaints I'm aware have been made or are about to be made to the IRS. In particular, I mentioned one that I know has already triggered at least one long meeting with an IRS official as well as two others that are in the process of being submitted. I see it as only a matter of months, if that long, before the IRS come a' knocking. At that point I think Maharaji's going to be in some serious trouble. Yippie!!
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Date: Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 20:00:55 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Are we being hacked?
Message:
When MJ closed the ashrams in 1982 I had a friend who hung around for two years waiting for Maharaji's direction. He took a room at a local boarding house, continued his job and waited. He had a tape of a coordinators conference from 1976. At that conference Mj blasted a coordinator whose ashram had closed during the period when M became a humanitarian leader. I heard the tape. M said, 'if you were really a devotee you would have waited no matter how long it took for Maharaji's direction'. Well this poor guy waited 2 years based on that tape for Maharji to answers his letters and give him direction. He finally gave up and went home.

My question to Maharaji. Is this what you mean by living in the heart?

I had several conversations with this fellow trying to tell him that the ashrams are closed and you had best get on with your life. He was 36 years old at the time. Had no plans and nowhere to go. He finally moved back to his parents and I've never seen him since. If there is no demonstration of this living heart then what good is it?

Maharaji you are a bullshitter and an asshole for this one instance of misplaced faith alone.
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Date: Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 20:42:30 (EST)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: Are we being hacked?
Message:
Zac,

Good post! Are we being hacked?

Well, we are certainly pushing the envelope!

Mary
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Date: Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 20:53:25 (EST)
From: afraid
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: Are we being hacked?
Message:
It is fraudulent for Elan Vital to collect money for the benifit
of any individual. One has only to look at where the money goes;
i.e. off-shore,private companies.

My question is if they,whoever they may be,are hacking this can
they then find me.
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Date: Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 21:16:14 (EST)
From: Mary m
Email: None
To: afraid
Subject: Are we being hacked?
Message:
Hey Sweetie,

I'm really not sure if we're being hacked. Katie and Brian probably have utilities they can run to see what happened.

Can they find you? There are many ways to trace an individual via the net. Ergo - Melissa Virus Creator.

If you have a reason to feel threatened then lay low for a bit.

To all I would advise: Choose your battles carefully. It's been my experience that when an individual's or group's 'Gravy Train' is threatened there tends to be retaliation.

I'll be glad to cover for you. Blame it all on Mary M.

Take it easy,
Mary
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Date: Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 21:22:43 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: afraid
Subject: Afraid of what?
Message:
If your really afraid they won't notice you. So cut the shit and get a new handle.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 21:42:14 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: they cannot find you unless
Message:
Unless they have incredible and illegal access to machines on the a number of the nationwide backbone providers they cannot find out who you are.

They might be able to guess who you are if you post enough details about yourself (where you lived, which premie businesses or ashrams you were with, who you knew, etc.) and there are monitors or spys who make the connection.

Nor is there any danger when you visit www.maharaji.com or ELK, etc.

The Melissa virus was email based that was dependent on your machine having MS Word and running the Macro in the document that you actually had to use effort to open.

For the most part, the browsing of most webpages (and especially www.ex-premie.org) is very, very safe.
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Date: Sat, Apr 03, 1999 at 00:13:35 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: afraid
Subject: Are we being hacked?
Message:
I don't know what you are afraid of. The truth? Maharaji runs a chickenshit organization that lets people falsely believe they are following some sort of important spiritual path, without doing much of anything, and in return he gets richer and richer. Period. In fact, the organization exists for no other purpose than that. It is far too lacking in any backbone or principles to threaten anyone. There are too many people who know the truth for Maharaji or any premie to do anything to get people to shut up.
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Date: Sat, Apr 03, 1999 at 04:08:56 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: We are absolutely safe!
Message:
I went through that paranoid period of time when I started posting here. I knew it was part of the process when you leave a cult, but I had to go through it nevertheless.

From what I've understood, that fear is the reaction of you leaving the authoritarian relationship you've had with Mr Rawat, his organization and his representatives.

For the first time in your life since 24 years (for me) you say NO to everything you've believed in, and fuck you to your beloved 'master'!. I guess it's normal to unconsciously expect some kind of a reaction from their part, as your attitude towards them has always been ruled by fear. Of course we're not speaking of a gross fear: it's fear of going to hell, to find yourself alone (lost in the maya), of doing the worst mistake of your life (not recognizing your Lord), not be loved anymore (that's a big one), etc etc.

As you don't really understand what's happening to you, your fear gets projected on various other things: you think m's security is after you, some bongos are going to come and kill you, you're spied, etc... When I think THEY are very afraid of what's going on on the net, that the media now have access to so many things they took lots of care to hide. THEY are afraid, and will adopt the lowest possible profile, for ever I hope.

It takes time to realize this, and to stop functionning in that fear mode. When you start to enjoy life again the way it's supposed to be enjoyed, you realize all the BS you've swallowed for years, & fear gradually goes away. Maybe the keyword becomes enjoy life, but enjoy it the way it's supposed to be enjoyed, not watching a video in a middle of the blissful premies' gathering, or desperately trying to close your senses alone in your bedroom with the $ 1,000 picture (that you've purchased in Long Beach) of your guru who's really enjoying your money on his yacht together with his bottle of Cognac and his mistresses when you're anxious chasing your next breath to enjoy. Pityful.

We've been suckers, that's all, and he thrives on our kins.

And now the suckers are mutining against the charlatan. Let's see what's going to happen. I'm very curious to see what's going to unfold.....
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Date: Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 10:40:57 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: We are absolutely safe!
Message:
Great post, JM!!!!!! And a good analysis of the reason there is fear at first. It's part of the de-tox.
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Date: Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 22:31:39 (EST)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: zac attack
Message:
When he closed the ashrams, not that he made any announcement
or gave any explanation, I knew quite a few premies who
kept letting the -authorities- know that they wanted to be
on the list of those that were still keeping the ashram lifestyle.

I myself overheard some of the upper dust talking, actually
laughing about it and saying that rawat didn't have any list
and those premies were dumb for not getting it. That it was
closed.

rawaat left an awful lot of people way out on a limb
with his talking one way really heavy and then dropping
the ashram without any talk about it.
Many people were trapped like your friend.

I am just glad that this forum and web sites are up and running
to state the past and present.
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Date: Sat, Apr 03, 1999 at 06:23:12 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: Dumb for not getting it?
Message:
Do you think Maharaji had a good laugh as well, when he heard there were individuals waiting for direction? Ha Ha Ha really funny?

Did Jim say meetings with the IRS? HA HA HA fun fun funny

Now there are some who are dumb for not getting it, but at least the information is available.
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Date: Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 19:11:02 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: More manguage (1)
Message:
On ELK this morning they promised this would be the last missive from the fat pig of Malibu while in India. Okay, so Icould be reading or even going into the office but I'm not, alright? What are you? My mother?

THE EFFORT TO REMEMBER
This is another beautiful opportunity to learn and understand.

Years later I still gag on such new age stolid jargon. Maharaji's devalued the language beyond the arc of Orwell's distopian projections. He uses words like a magician's sleight of hand. They're nothing but distractions so the Lord can do his real work on your soul while you bask in his holy presence. Maharaji used to brag about this strategy. He might as well be saying 'abra adabra'. Instead, he says words like 'beautiful', 'opportunity', 'understanding'. Nothing means anything. Jam your mind. Be like Alexis.

In our lives it requires no great skill just to forget something, but to remember requires effort.Well, you fat fuck, we're trying to get you to remember the last 25 years and you keep wanting to forget them. Who's side are you on, anyway?

People pour so much effort into so many things in the world, and they can't explain why.Maybe the same reason you've become a 'succesful investor', huh? Maharaji, you are such an amazing hypocrite. I salivate for the day the IRS puts it all together. What do you figure, maybe they've already contacted you? Have they? If not it won't be long, buddy. No, I can't promise that but I'd be entirely surprised if nothing arises from the reports they're getting. Just a matter of time, I'd say.

The example I like to give is of the camel, ox or horse that is blind-folded and made to walk around a well all day long (to draw water). At the end of the day the animal must expect to have walked some distance, but in fact it is right where it started.

So there is one kind of effort that people make without knowing why. This is to do with our upbringing. Society, relatives and parents insist: 'You must do this. You must do that.' And this is what people do without questioning why.

Oh you big rebel, you! Hee's how you describe yourself on your web page:

Maharaji attended St. Joseph's Academy in Dehra Dun, India. He later graduated as an airline transport pilot and holds a number of pilot type ratings on jet airplanes and helicopters. Maharaji has advanced skills in computer graphics, computer-aided design, and the development of aviation software. He has invented a number of aviation related applications and products and a watch for which a patent is pending. He is also a successful private investor and has contributed to the success of several startup companies in various industries, including software.

Besides being entirely misleading -- you never mention that St. Joseph's is a fucking high school for God's sake and that you left in grade nine of all things -- you're hear vainly striving for a veneer of worldly glory. Never worked an honest day in your life, yet you dismiss the world as if it's all a coward's game, the lot, at best, of dullards.


On the other hand when it comes to fulfilling this life, another kind of effort is required. We need to understand that an effort is required to practice Knowledge and to listen to our hearts.

'Fulfilling this life'? Is that english? Or is that just the jargon of an uneducated cult leader?

LISTEN TO THE HEART
If we listen to our hearts we will bring bliss and love into our lives.

The problem is that our hearts say one thing and we often end up doing something else.

Yes, exactly! That's why you and you alone can tell us what our hearts really want, right? There is no hell deep enough for you, piggie. And, my guess is that your world's gonna hit the wall soon enough for you to finally be able to listen to your own heart for a change. Can't wait!

The first thing we need to understand is why we should make an effort to fulfil our lives in the first place. The world doesn't tell you why you should do something. It is just understood that between this and that age: 'You should do this'; and between this age and that age: 'You should do that.'

It goes like this: school, marriage, job and retirement.

See what I mean? You have no right to dis the world when you're bragging all the same about how well you've positioned your fat, greasy ass in it. If you do fall, you will have ample time to review all this. I just thought I'd say something now and get into your conscience a little early. Okay, I'm dreaming. As if you care. Well, you will. You will.

YOUR DECISION
I have four children but I have not brought them up in this way.

What I tell them is: 'It is your life. Whatever you want to achieve in your life, it is your decision alone. And whatever you decide, I will help you if I can.'

'It is your life, your breath, not mine.'

I have given my eldest daughter, Premlata, Knowledge and she makes her own personal effort to practice.

The experience of peace that she has is her own. And she has decided that she will practice at least once a day. In fact she says if she doesn't practice at least once a day her whole day feels wasted.

We know Daya's stuck in some sick incestuous worship quagmire but what about the boys? Is it true that Hansi despises your cult trip? Come on, Maharaji, if you're gonna talk about your family why not give us the whole picture? Does your mistress still practise? Practise what?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 19:12:02 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: More manguage (2)
Message:
NO ANSWERS
We are all ready to make an effort when blind faith is involved, when we don't even know why we are making an effort.

This is the way of the world. And when you ask why, nobody gives an answer and nobody can.

What we should not forget is our number one responsibility which is to fulfil our lives.

My number one responsibility is to feed myself and my loved ones. You obviously think the same, that's why you've horded as much stolen money as you have. Yes, I call it 'stolen' because you've never collected a cent on honest terms. Tell me, fuckface, how concerned are you about all your old followers who never quite set themselves up as 'successful investors' too? Do you have little plastic, pyramids for them at least?

THE PATH TO NOWHERE
Here in India there are so many philosophies and people say that they are true just because they are written in books. But to blindly follow someone else's philosophy is not the path of truth.

The real company of truth is when we listen to words from the heart and feel an inspiration that comes from the heart.

So is that what's happening over the hill when your brother Satpal, who denounced you years ago, gives his sermons about love and god and all the other crank ideas your family got rich on? Is that the heart talking?

I don't believe in just doing things for the sake of doing them, like rosaries and other such things, when you get no feeling from them. If you are not feeling anything, why keep at it? Then you are just like the camel or horse from my analogy.

This is yet another example of your hypocrisy. You say no one should pracitse if they don't feel anything. But at the same time you'll tell anyone who's ever complained that they're not 'getting anything' from k to just keep at it. Which is it? Of course, it's neither. The whole trip's a mirage.

A PRACTICAL JOY
You need to make an effort to practice Knowledge and to experience joy. You need to be practical and not theoretical. You need a real, practical experience.

See? It only took a second for you to contradict yourself. I guess that's what life's like when no one can dare answer you. You get lazy, don't you?

Knowledge takes you within and then all the outside noise calms down.

When we sit down to practice the experience we have is not an external experience. It is within. It is beyond imagination and thoughts and cannot be captured by them.

You've got that thought down pretty soldily, don't you?

PUPPETS OF THE WORLD
If we focus outside, it is as if strings are attached to both our arms and legs and head, and each one of these strings is pulling in a different direction. So we come home feeling tired and empty. We have left the office but all the problems and stress come home with us.

We are really exhausted and our minds are going in so many directions. What we want is peace, but how can we come back to that one idea?

What one idea? The idea that you're god or the idea it's beyond ideas and only you can take people there? Which idea you talking about?

FROM MANY TO ONE
The word 'peace' has been around for a long time. In the outside world our minds just go in so many directions, but the inner world is completely different we can return from the 'many' and go to the 'one' which is peace. To go from the 'many' to the 'one', however, takes effort.

Another empty, meaningless equation which passes for profundity in your 'confederacy of dunces'.

The outside world has its boundaries, but the world within has no limit. When we experience Knowledge, we are not fathers, mothers, husbands, servants or bosses; we are neither old nor young. None of these roles or conditions are applicable in the world within.

Oh, you're talking about the imagination. Why didn't you say so?

FEELING WHOLE
Saints and masters have said that those people who receive Knowledge are blessed. And this is true for you, if in your life you have something that prevents you from being scattered.

I think people are often prevented from 'being scatered' when they become wealthy and can consider themselves 'successful investors'. Don't you? Tell me, fatso, how much money you've got. You know, you've gotten every last cent from your flock. Are you saying the extent of your riches are no one's business but your own? Meanwhile, you take more and more and more. Yes, Maharaji, I am completely thrilled to know your days are numbered. I haven't told you all I know about the IRS reports, have I? Some of that's MY private information. You are a U.S. citizen now, aren't you?

AN OPEN DOOR
It is easy to leave Knowledge. The door is always open. It is because the door is open for people to come in that it is also open for people to leave. Many people leave because they don't want to make an effort.

And how, pray tell, could the 'door' ever be 'closed'? This is sublimely stupid wordplay on a metaphor which loses all meaning at this level. You're an idiot.

NO REGRETS
If we have not connected with that which has given us peace when it comes time to leave our bodies, we will start to regret.

Is that a threat? Aren't you the same guy who won't talk about what happens when one dies (as if you know anything anyway)? So what's this shit, eh?

Life is not for regretting. There are many things that we do every day, that we might regret later. But time spent practicing Knowledge and participating is time that we will never regret.

Hey, asshole! Read my lips: I regret it. I regret that I spent my twenties following your illusion and trying to find your transendent path to god realization in your meditation. Hey, fella, not only was it not there, you don't even have the guts to admit you once tried to sell us on that vacation.

A REAL CHOICE
With Knowledge it is your choice. If you want it, fine. If you don't want it, fine too. What is there in the world that is like that? There, it is like this, they say: 'If you do this, you will go to hell. And if you don't do this, you will also go to hell...' But I say if you have not found your heaven here, what's the point?

Hey, aren't you the same guy who moments before threatened people with 'regret' should they not succumb to your antique hindu cult trip? Now you're saying OTHERS threaten hell? What's the difference? I don't see it, myself.

AUTOMATIC THANKS
You should accept the experience of Knowledge. It is not so easy and not everyone can accept it. If you think it is easy, then you should make the effort to accept the first breath of the day. That is difficult. You cannot do this with your head, but only with your heart. Your heart will automatically give thanks for that breath. If you experience each breath, then the gratitude you will feel will fill your whole life.

Brainwashing simplicitur. Maharaji, you should spend your waking moment grateful that you haven't yet heard from the IRS. Every day counts, huh?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 00:43:34 (EDT)
From: Nim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: More manguage (2)
Message:
Thanks Jim, fot the True company of truth.
These manguage posts are beautiful. Keep em coming.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 01, 1999 at 21:11:49 (EST)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Elan Vital - Enjoy
Message:
Gosh folks, I still cant find Nellie's watch!
:-)

Get ready for a stroll down memory lane!

Corporate Information:
Corporation Name: ELAN VITAL, INC.
Address Line 1: 20 ISLAND AVE
Address Line 2:
City: MIAMI BEACH
State: FL
Zip Code: 33139

Status: GOOD

First Annual Report Date:
First Annual Report Number:
Second Annual Report Date: 09/29/1997
Second Annual Report Number: 19971155398
Third Annual Report Date: 11/08/1995
Third Annual Report Number: 19951137472

Home State: CO
Suspend Date:
Term: PER
Purge Date:
Agent Resignation Date:
Registered Agent Date: 04/05/1995
Filing Date: 09/28/1971
Type: DNC

Registered Agent Name: PRENTICE-HALL CORP SYSTEM INC
Registered Agent's Address Line 1: 1560 BROADWAY
Registered Agent's City: DENVER
Registered Agent's State: CO
Registered Agent's Zip Code: 80202
Name's Extended: N

Officer Records:
Code Name Address Line 1 City, State, Zip

PR GROSS LINDA S PO BOX 241469 LOS ANGELES,CA 90024
ST THOMAS KATHIE PO BOX 5 AGOURA HILLS,CA 91376
VP HAGAN THOMAS 13070 E VISTA PARK DR MOORPARK,CA 93021

Director Records:
Name Address Line 1 City State Zip

THOMAS KATHIE PO BOX 5 AGOURA HILLS CA 91376
HEBELER CARL 914 THIRD ST 9 SANTA MONICA CA 90403
HAGAN THOMAS 13070 E VISTA PARK DR MOORPARK,CA 93021

Stock Records:
Class 1 Par Value 1 Authorized 1 Issued 1

Class 2 Par Value 2 Authorized 2 Issued 2

Class 3 Par Value 3 Authorized 3 Issued 3

History Records:
Type Activate Document History History
Date Number Description Overflow
Flag

ARTINC 09281971 19871234276 DIVINE LIGHT MISSION, INC. N
TRDNAM 04241973 DIVINE OFFICE SYSTEMS, INC. Y
(WITHDRAWN)
TRDNAM 05041973 DIVINE ORGANIZATION OF WOMEN Y
(WITHDRAWN)
TRDNAM 05071973 DIVINE SERVICES INC. Y
(WITHDRAWN)
TRDNAM 05091973 SHRI HANS HUMANITARIAN SERVICES, Y
INC. (WITHDRAWN)
TRDNAM 05091973 19971020040 DIVINE UNITED ORGANIZATION, INC. N

TRDNAM 06051973 AKASHIC RECORDS, INC. Y
(WITHDRAWN)

TRDNAM 06051973 19971020040 SHRI HANS RECORDS, CO. Y
(WITHDRAWN)
TRDNAM 08271973 DIVINE SECURITY AGENCY, INC. Y
(WITHDRAWN)
TRDNAM 08271973 19971020040 DIVINE DISTRIBUTIONS, INC. Y
(WITHDRAWN)
TRDNAM 09201973 SHRI HANS SERVICE COMPANY, INC. Y
(WITHDRAWN)
WDTRNM 09201973 19971020040 DIVINE SERVICES INC. N
TRDNAM 10241973 SHRI HANS FILM PRODUCTIONS, Y
(WITHDRAWN)
TRDNAM 12311973 SHRI HANS MUSIC PUBLISHING, INC. Y
(WITHDRAWN)
TRDNAM 02141974 SHRI HANS TRANSPORTATION SYSTEM, Y
INC. (WITHDRAWN) Y
TRDNAM 03051974 SHRI HANS GRAPHICS, INC.
WDTRNM 03051974 19971020040 DIVINE ORGANIZATION OF WOMEN N
TRDNAM 03051974 19971020040 RAINBOW GROCERY, LTD. Y
(WITHDRAWN)
TRDNAM 03051974 19971020040 SHRI HANS EDUCATIONAL, INC. N
TRDNAM 05031974 D.U.O. DATA SERVICES, INC. Y
(WITHDRAWN)
TRDNAM 05141974 W.P.C., INC. (WITHDRAWN) Y
TRDNAM 06191974 CITY OF LOVE AND LIGHT UNLIMITED,
INC. N
TRDNAM 06271974 SHRI HANS AQUARIAN PHOTOGRAPHY,
INC. (WITHDRAWN) Y
TRDNAM 06271974 19971020040 RAJA YOGA ACADEMY, INC. WITHDRAWN Y
TRDNAM 08091974 HARMONY BUILDING, INC. WITHDRAWN Y
TRDNAM 04301975 UNITY SCHOOL, INC. N
TRDNAM 04141976 DUO INTERNATIONAL, INC. N
WDTRNM 07061976 DIVERSIFIED TRAVEL SERVICE, INC. N
TRDNAM 07061976 19971020040 DIVERSIFIED TRAVEL SERVICE, INC.
(WITHDRAWN) Y
WDTRNM 11011976 AKASHIC RECORDS, INC. N
WDTRNM 11011976 19971020040 CITY OF LOVE AND LIGHT UNLIMITED,
INC. N
WDTRNM 11011976 19971020040 DIVINE OFFICE SYSTEMS, INC. N
WDTRNM 11051976 SHRI HANS HUMANITARIAN SERVICES, INC. N
WDTRNM 11051976 19971020040 D.U.O. DATA SERVICES, INC. N
WDTRNM 11101976 HARMONY BUILDING, INC. N
WDTRNM 11101976 19971020040 W.P.C., INC. N
WDTRNM 11101976 19971020040 SHRI HANS RECORDS, CO. N
WDTRNM 11101976 19971020040 SHRI HANS SERVICE COMPANY, INC. N
WDTRNM 11221976 SHRI HANS AQUARIAN PHOTOGRAPHY, INC. N
WDTRNM 11221976 19971020040 RAJA YOGA ACADEMY, INC. N
WDTRNM 11221976 19971020040 SHRI HANS MUSIC PUBLISHING, INC. N
WDTRNM 11221976 19971020040 RAJA YOGA ACADEMY, INC. N
WDTRNM 11231976 DIVINE DISTRIBUTIONS, INC. N
WDTRNM 11231976 19971020040 SHRIHANS TRANSPORATION SYSTEMS,INC.N
WDTRNM 12301976 SHRI HANS GRAPHICS, INC. N
WDTRNM 12301976 19971020040 SHRI HANS FILM PRODUCTIONS, INC. N
WDTRNM 01111977 RAINBOW GROCERY, LTD. N
TRDNAM 02241977 RAINBOW GROCERY, LTD. (WITHDRAWN) N
TRDNAM 01161979 DUO ENTERPRISES, INC. 'WITHDRAWN' Y
TRDNAM 01161979 19971020040 SHIP, INC. N
TRDNAM 01161979 19971020040 SHRIHANS INTERNATIONAL PRODUCTIONS,
INC. N
WDTRNM 02021979 DIVINE SECURITY AGENCY, INC. N
WDTRNM 03221979 DUO ENTERPRISES, INC. N
WDTRNM 09281979 RAINBOW GROCERY LTD. N
AMEND 08051980 408858 RESTATED ARTICLES WITH AMENDMENTS N
AMEND 02251981 426547 DF1 N
AMEND 01111983 504559 DF1 N
NAMCHG 02221983 509395 DIVINE LIGHT MISSION, INC. N
AMEND 08061985 631919 DF1 N
REPORT 12131990 CR85 - 08/06/85 - 8554972 N
REPORT 08201991 CR - 09/01/91 - 11/30/91 N
REPORT 12191992 CR87 - 05/21/87 - 8730828 N
REPORT 08201993 CR - 09/01/93 - 11/30/93 N
REPORT 12161994 CR89 - 04/03/89 - 891031811 N
AMEND 04051995 19951048493 DF1 N
REPORT 08211995 CR - 09/01/95 - 11/30/95 N
REPORT 12141996 CR91 - 09/18/91 - 911074685 N
REPORT 08151997 CR - 09/01/1997 - 11/30/1997 N
REPORT 11161993 19931124067 CORP REPORT N
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Date: Thurs, Apr 01, 1999 at 21:32:03 (EST)
From: Roger Drek
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: Oh, my freaking God!
Message:
Mary M.,

God bless Nellie! We're gonna get that watch back if we have to search all four corners of the earth, but at least we have a map now.

Wow!

Next stop: FOIA the FBI, IRS, U.S. Treasury.

Something is going on in L.A.!
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Date: Thurs, Apr 01, 1999 at 21:42:15 (EST)
From: Mary M
Email: mem_mcgraw@msn.com
To: Roger Drek
Subject: Oh, my freaking God!
Message:
Hey Roger,

Actually it wasn't hard to get the info once another thread pointed the way! (I really do try to respect privacy and wouldn't out anyone!)

I think I'm going to sue 'Divine Security' for duress from the 'Darshan Lockdown' in Rome.

If anyone wants the neatly formatted version let me know!

'Where has all our money gone? Long time passing. Where has all our money gone long time ago? Gone to Shri Hans... da...da...da When will we ever learn, when will we ever learn?'

Love,
Mare
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Date: Thurs, Apr 01, 1999 at 22:37:25 (EST)
From: Roger Drek
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: Oh, my freaking God!
Message:
Yes, it seems that all of us were duped and abused by at least one of Maharaji's tentacles. God, he has so damn many!

I'm investigating the FOIA process now and am very eager to pursue it. With the names of the organizations, the companies, and the principals there is something to go on.

However, what I'm seeing is that there is no one stop shopping for FOIAs and it looks like contacting each agency and making the request. Apparently, records made after 1996 are subject to electronic availability. Also, FOIAs can be submitted to State agencies, as well. I don't have the time, but I've got the will now that I'm no longer a cult zombie.

Revealing my entire plan ahead of time: While there were illegal and unethical activities in many of these organizations (eg. enslavement of premies in businesses was a sham) the big fish to catch is money laundering and tax evasion.

Does Maharaji have to declare darshan money as income or are gifts non-taxable? How is it categorized? Is that completely tax-free or what?

Or do you launder that money through the corporations that eventually funnel the money back to support some other operation like a plane project or a residence. Or vice-a-versa where the corporations falsely under report income and cash is shuttled off shore or to foundation in Switzerland.

We know that premies are zealous enough to skirt the law for the purposes of pleasing Maharaji. So much zealotry, in fact, that I would be very, very surprised if there have been no illegal activities that could send someone to jail. Come on premies, be a witness and you won't go to jail!

Maharaji, we're going to expose you for the fraud you are and it's going to a piece at a time. Why don't you just come clean with an apology, a cash settlement, close up shop and move back to India or Mauritius?

This ain't no April Fools!
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Date: Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 00:21:50 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Roger Drek
Subject: Oh, my freaking God!
Message:
Hey Big Rog-
Like runamok, Dude!!!!

PS Ain't Mary M. something?

When you guys calm down a little and you get a chance you can explain all this stuff in English. It's always nice to learn something while we're out dissing Miragey.
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Date: Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 00:52:06 (EST)
From: cp
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: Oh, my freaking God!!!!!!!!
Message:
I weep with joy and relief. But you better spell out what it all means.
.. and what I can do to help the

R E C K O N I N G
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Date: Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 16:05:51 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Roger Drek
Subject: Oh, my freaking God!
Message:
However, what I'm seeing is that there is no one stop shopping for FOIAs and it looks like contacting each agency and making the request.

What kind of government records could there be? FBI files? IRS records? I doubt FOIA will get you very much information on Maharaji and the cult. Why would the government have records? I think the IRS is also an exception to FOIA.

Does Maharaji have to declare darshan money as income or are gifts non-taxable? How is it categorized? Is that completely tax-free or what?

This is all specutlation on my part, put if the money is really a 'gift' to Maharaji, I think it's not taxable, unfortunately, but the person giving the 'gift' can't deduct it either. But there is a gray area. Could the 'gift' be considered payment by the premies for services rendered, like giving knowledge, being their spiritual 'master' etc. Then it would be 'income' and be taxable. That's why M bends over backwards saying he is paid NOTHING for what he does, and only has his expenses covered by non-profits like EV. He characterizes all the 'gifts' as just that and pays no taxes on them, I would imagine.

But, a non-profit organization like DLM or EV, that accepts 'donations' and the donators take tax deductions, are in BIG TROUBLE if they turn around and use the money to benefit an individual. That is tax fraud. And it's pretty clear that's what DLM did in the early years. People donated to DLM and 60% (as reported by insiders) of the money when to Maharaji directly. That's illegal. I'm sure they have cleaned that up now and EV doesn't do that. M is funded in other ways, all characterized as 'gifts,' except he would have to pay taxes on his investment income just like anybody else.

I'm sure the darshan money is also a gray area. To what or to whom are the premies giving that money? Is it to Maharaji or Elan Vital? And is the money being paid for the 'service' of darshan? If so, that's income and likely taxable. I bet that's why, especially outside the US, the darshan money was wired to Switzerland, like we have heard it was. Since it was all in cash, it's hard to trace. He avoids paying taxes that way. But in any event, I think he would just declare it as 'gifts.'

That's probably also why M isn't an owner of any of the premie companies that give him money. If he is an owner he has to pay taxes on the profits, but if the business just gives him money as a 'gift' I don't think that's taxable. On the other hand, Amtext, for example, can't deduct as an expense money it gives to M. It has to be paid to Maharaji out of Amtext's profits after tax. Otherwise that would be tax fraud on Amtext's part. I don't think the tax code deals with that kind of situation because they figure people can do with the profits oof a business whatever they want to. But it's pretty expensive for Amtext because they get no credit for the donation at all. So whoever owns Amtext is just giving away the profits rather than benefiting from them, because they belong to a cult and are subservient to Maharaji.

I think it's pretty clear that up until 1981 at least, through the plane project, there was tax fraud going on, but after that, who knows? It might be all very shady but not illegal.
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Date: Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 18:48:42 (EST)
From: Your Friend
Email: None
To: ROGER
Subject: It's a bird, It's a plane...
Message:
Name : RAWAT, PREM PAL SINGH
Pilot's Address : 31334 ANACAPA VIEW DR
MALIBU, CA, 90265-2673
Date of Medical : Oct, 1997
Class of Medical : 1
Pilot Certificates : Airline Transport Pilot Helicopter Instrument Glider Rating
Ratings: Multi-Engine Land
FAA Region : Western/Pacific
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Date: Thurs, Apr 01, 1999 at 18:42:22 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: David Smith in England
Message:
I just got a mailshot from EV telling me the exciting news that instructor David Smith is in England. I quote:-

'You may already know that instructor David Smith is currently in the UK and is likely to be here for the next two months. He will spend much of his time in the London area and will be speaking at a variety of events both in Central London and in all the local areas. One activity which is likely to be repeated in a number of locations is a session dedicated to participation with a particular focus on the propagation of Knowledge.

These sessions are intended to be helpful for anyone with an interest in taking part in propagation and as a person with Knowledge or aspirant you are warmly invited to attend whichever of the events is most convenient:'

Then a list of dates and venues. He will also be attending a number of introductory events.

It's just the sort of news to make one want to rush back to the Lotus Feet.

John.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 01, 1999 at 19:28:56 (EST)
From: crow magnum
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: I wish that was my town (nt)
Message:
ljkyhfgoiu
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Date: Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 02:56:23 (EST)
From: The Equalizer
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: David Smith in England
Message:
Thanks for the information.

Equalizer.
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Date: Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 12:30:13 (EST)
From: The Pinochet Team
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: War Crimes Tribunal
Message:
Now that England has the stellar record as refusing to release Pinochet, that war criminal and pepetrator of human rights' abuses, perhaps the same could be directed at Mr. Smith. Since he is going to be in England for a month, that should give everyone plenty of time. I'm sure there are plenty of ex-premies willing to testify to his crimes against humanity in the name of the Living Lord.
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Date: Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 13:15:58 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: katie@ex-premie.org
To: The Pinochet Team
Subject: I edited your post
Message:
Dear TPT -
I was alerted to the 'pie' part of your post by someone else on the forum (their post alerting me got deleted as well because they quoted the 'pie' part in it too.) I hope you don't view this as censorship - whoever wrote the answer to your post was right in that the 'pie' portion could be viewed as an incitement to assault and battery.

I have never met or come in contact with David Smith (guess I'm lucky), but I've sure heard a lot about him on the forum. I understand that you and many others have VERY angry feelings about him, and that you'd like to express those feelings in some way that's not harmful. But I hope you can also understand why I had to edit your post.

Regards,
Katie
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Date: Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 14:34:25 (EST)
From: The Bionic Bakers
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Appropriate Punishments
Message:
Ms Katie:

In addition to that unmentionable and terribly threatening thing that our allies the Pinochet Team had the gall to mention, [We are APPALLED!!!] and for which we feel extreme revulsion, might we suggest a few other things that the British could do that might be appropriate punishment for Mr. Smith's crimes against humanity and we hope you, Ms. Katie, don't have to delete these as well:

They could give him a 'wedgie;'
They could short-sheet his bed;
They could suggest to his hairsylist to do 'something really interesting' with David's hair;
They could suggest to Jehovahs Witnesses that he is a good prospect for conversion and supply them with his address;
They could sign him up with The Book of the Month Club;
They could put him on the mailing list of the Cult Awareness Network;
They could serve him British food;
They could have him live with British 'central heating' and 'water heaters;'
They could suggest he see a National Health Service doctor or dentist;
They could play the role of an aspirant who asks him a lot of difficult questions about Maharaji's money, lifestyle and former incarnation as the Lord of the Universe;
They could have him watch reruns of 'Coronation Street,' 'Are You Being Served' and 'Keeping Up Appearances' or have him listen to one of those BBC programmes on gardening [-- clinically proven to deprogram anyone from any cult whatsoever]

Just a few suggestions. Tally ho!
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Date: Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 15:17:50 (EST)
From: Ms. Katie
Email: None
To: The Bionic Bakers
Subject: Sheesh! (but very funny)
Message:
Okay, okay! I think we understand each other now, or at least I HOPE we do.

By the way, I do have a sense of humor, although that may be difficult to believe :)

Take care,
Ms. Katie
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Date: Thurs, Apr 01, 1999 at 12:51:02 (EST)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: K in books - more
Message:
Hi Jean-Michel,

I promised to give you the quotes you asked for from 'Zen Flesh, Zen Bones', stories compiled by Paul Reps (Penguin books; my copy from 1971, first ed. 1957). Here they are, but first, a few general words.

The book is actually about zen, but in the end of the book, there's an interesting chapter called 'Centreing', 'transcribed' by Paul Reps. He claims that he received this instruction orally from a sage, Lakshmanjoo, I quote:

'Wandering in the ineffable beauty of Kashmir, above Srinagar, I come upon the hermitage of Lakshmanjoo.
It overlooks green rice fields, the gardens of Shalimar and Nishat Bagh, lakes fringed with lotus. Water streams down from a mountaintop.
Here Lakshmanjoo - tall, full bodied, dhining - welcomes me. He shares with me this ancient teaching from the Vigyan Bhairava and Sochanda Tantra, both written about four thousand years ago, and from Malini Vijaya Tantra, probably another thousand years yet. It is an ancient teachning, copied and recopied countless times, and from it Lakshmanjoo has made the beginnings of an English version. I transcribe it eleven more times to get ii into the form given here.
Shiva first chanted it to his consort Devi. /-/ It presents 112 ways to open the invisible door of conmsciousness.'

Now, this is what Paul Reps says, and I personally have certain doubts. Obviously, Paul Reps has visited Srinagar, his description of its looks is correct, it 'fits'. However, chances of finding a Hindu hermitage in a totally Muslim area appears meager. The name 'Lakshmanjoo' seems fake to me, its not a name of a person, really (correct me if I'm wrong, any Hindu speaker). However, there's a very famous, 'holy' bridge in Rishikesh named LAKSHMANJOOLA - my guess is that Paul Reps invented the name from there.

My conclusion, his meeting with the sage is probably a fairytale.

Also, the age of the tantric scriptures he refers to - 4000 years - is most definitely not true. The scripture in question, Malini Vijaya Tantra, he claims to be even older, perhaps 5000 years. I say, this is pure BS and myastification.

However, he is probably correct in claiming that the tantric text was given orally over generations, from teacher to student.

The same text can be found in many circumstances, with slightly different variations - also in China: there's a book on Taoist yoga, 'Nirvana Tao', by Daniel Odier, East-West Publications, which describes exactly the same 112 verses, or stanzas, on pages 145-152, but with slightly different translation.

Now, here are the stanzas in question, from this tantric text:

'2. Radiant one, this experience may dawn between two breaths. After breath comes in (down) and just before turning up (out) - the beneficience.

8. Attention between eyebrows, let mind be before thought. Let form fill with breath essence to the top of the head, and there shower as light.

10. Eyes closed, see your inner being in detail. Thus see your nature.

12. Closing the seven openings of the head with your hands, a space between your eyes become all-inclusive.

13. Touching eyeballs as a feather, lightness between them opens into heart and there permeates the cosmos.

14. Bathe in the centre of sound, as in the continuous sound of a waterfall. Or, by putting fingers in ears, hear the sound of sounds.

Thats it, folks - pretty much like three techniques.

I Ching, You Ching, We All Ching.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 01, 1999 at 15:08:12 (EST)
From: crowdad
Email: None
To: Happy
Subject: K in books - more
Message:
Reminds me of the Sikhs, they claim there is this goal
but if you don't get to it any time soon, it's your
fault.

Here is the qoute:
'if you were the white and have the dagger and the other
6 items in your clothing, and do the sa ta na ma mantra
for 20 minutes a day' and move your fingers like they show
you along with the sa ta na ma mantra, 'after 3 years you
will hear the unhearable and see the unseeable.'

Who can you complain to 3 years later when you did all that
and nothing happened?

Same here,
'the all inclusive space'
'water fall sound of sounds'
'and there shower as light'
'there permeates the cosmos'
'close you eyes and see your inner being indetail!!
How come rawat of charanand havent seen it?

Humans are total suckers and innocent. One idiot makes a
misperception of life and endless generations build on
it and how do you get rid of it?
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Date: Thurs, Apr 01, 1999 at 11:42:50 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: M's real April Fool's joke
Message:
Over on ELK you can find the real thing. In today's dispatch, the hamster said the following:

1) k reviews are a ruse. They're really nothing but excuses to cajole the premies into practising k.

2) Children only want to play. Here's what he said:

We all started life as children. And as children we only had one aim and that was just to play and feel joy.

Children feel there is only one purpose and that is to play. They are not concerned with hunger or thirst or whether it is hot or cold. That is the mother's concern; she tells her children: 'Wear a sweater. Eat your food.' Children don't think about these things, they don't care about the past or the future.

They just care about one thing: enjoying themselves.


Notice how he convenientally omits kids' curiosity? Think about it.

3) Breath gives life. If you can 'find that joy' you'll somehow leave this world with more than you came with. If not, you'll leave empty-handed.

What a bizarre idea to just accept. This cult is prehistoric/

4) You've got a choice: your 'heart' or your 'imagination and thoughts'. Here's how he put it:

'Where do we want to live: in the world of our imagination and thoughts or in the true world, the world of the heart? We have to decide. Not everyone will be able to understand this.'

Again, this is radical cult stuff. Really, anyone who claims this is a 'lesser' cult is dreaming.

5) The ashram is where it's at. Yes, he's still talking out of both sides of his mouth on that one. Again, the greasy worm of Malibu in his own words:

'It is a unique environment here at the ashram. No one will tell you to take on worldly responsibilities here. Here you can feel peace and your thoughts go in that direction.

Here you can realise how fortunate you are to have this life. You can focus your attention within.

So take advantage of this incredible opportunity.'
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Date: Thurs, Apr 01, 1999 at 15:12:18 (EST)
From: crow's feet
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: M's real April Fool's joke
Message:
Realize you have a life and give up all chance of useing
your life because lord rawat is the only one to follow
his mind.
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Date: Tues, Mar 30, 1999 at 21:16:39 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Maharaji supports study of K!!
Message:
Knowledge needs no proof. Nor does peace need any proof. The proof is within your heart. The proof is within you. But are we ready to accept this or not?'
(Fat, greasy Malibu Hamster - somewhere in India, 29/3/99)

Well, at least he didn't say 'proof needs no proof' But what he did say raises a few questions. What if a Satpal premie, you know, one initiated by that bad, bad, fraud and pretender to the throne, Maharaji's older brother, struck up a conversation with Maharaji. Would Maharaji say the guy had knowledge or not?
Say the guy was like that Satpal bureaucrat like the long-time co-ordinator from Rugby, England I spoke with once. Articulate, middle-aged, apparently intelligent. Absolutely in love with his master who, as we know, isn't Maharaji. Would Maharaji tell the guy he didn't have Knowledge? Would he think it?

See, if the guy smiles at Maharaji and says he's 'got it, thank you very much' what can Maharaji do? He can either accept the guy's claim or get into all that nasty proof stuff he claims above is so inappropriate. The results, obviously, would be a farce.

You know, I'm beginning to think Maharaji's philosophy is somewhat unworkable.
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Date: Tues, Mar 30, 1999 at 22:42:44 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Acceptance
Message:
Knowledge needs no proof. Nor does peace need any proof. The proof is within your heart. The proof is within you. But are we ready to accept this or not?'

Being one of those people whose experience with Knowledge has been minimal, I consider this to be Maharaji's cruelest argument. He places all the blame on you because you're not ready to accept it. Here I was, doing the best I knew how to have that experience M talks about, and the only reason M has for me not having it is because I can't 'accept' it.

I know what peace is. I know when I experience it, it is always welcome. Same for love. Same for compassion and understanding. When they come to me in my life I gratefully accept them, thankful for their arrival, as any sane person would be.

Me and Knowledge just don't mix, somehow. It doesn't take me there. It has nothing to do with acceptance. When Maharaji says it does, he's either lying or doesn't know any better. I was a fool for believing him for the length of time I did.
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Date: Wed, Mar 31, 1999 at 09:08:14 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Jerry & Jim
Subject: Acceptance
Message:
Jerry: Maharaji changed the teaching of the techniques twice since you left. He is apparently experimenting with the Guniea-premies to determine what works. If you take his first version pressing eyeballs till they hurt, so hunging the breath, pushing tongue back as far as possible etc. You have some fucked up techniques that don't really work. Again no one at the wheel of the ship, hitting rocks everywhere(his analogy). Of course two revisions later the techniques begin to make sense, to me at least, and they work if you can call it that. As do many other techniques I am sure.

How many total hours did premies sit there hurting themselves and frustrated with the first techniques he gave? My calculator doesn't go that high. Many of the earlier premies who stuck didn't even meditate. To tough. They loved the boy guru and went to his events.

All I can figure is that Mahrji finally tried the family techniques himself and said this is ridiculous it hurts and changed the techniques twice. Once in 1976-7 and again in 1985. This is not someone who was paying attention to their end of the deal. He's screaming at us to surrender when we should have been screaming at him to do his job! But that's not how it works in a cult!( Aside: I love the ex-page cause I get to scream back at that idiot. It's great!)

I think Maharaji is frustrated now! He is saying that knowledge (the techniques he asks one to practice I assume) work if you accept it. Well that's like saying I need to 'accept' wiping my ass for it to work. The techniques are working. This is it folks. But you see that would take the carrot out of his hand. Premies still are thinking there is an incredible experience and if they just do it right they'll get to 'the experience' Maharaji promised them and Maharji doesn't lie right?

Back to Mahraji's frustration. What he wants to say is 'knowledge works when you accept me as your lord and master.' In fact to those in the know that's what he said. It's code just like at Amtext and Deca. Accept Knowledge = accept me as your lord and master. There is precedent for arranged code in MJ's world.

Why does he use the term 'knowledge' when refering to the techniques. He's confusing everyone. For as long as I've listened to him I cannot say whether he is refering to the techniques or the 'experience' when he uses the term knowledge. They are not one in the same. If they were he'd give you the techniques and go home.

Does he mean the techniques? Then say 'the techniques I've given you'. But that puts a little responsibility on the Master and he is averse to all responsibility by his own words. Instead He keeps it vague and puts it on the back of religious history, the knowledge of Krishna, Ram, Kabir etc. the raj Vidia, the knowledge of all knowledges. Enough of that already. At one talk he says he can't say this was the knowledge given by past masters and at the rest he quotes them profusely. What he is doing is classic bullshitting. Anyone out there ever met a first class bullshitter?

When he speaks of 'the knowledge' he can't mean some experience from within? I don't think you can say that 'that experience' goes to work. It is the result of work maybe. So he must mean these simple techniques he gave but he won't say it that way cause it takes the fairy tale out of it, the mumbo, jumbo Indian hype, the bullshitting. Why is he continuing to try and convince us that they work? Why would a bullshitter do that? Either the techniques he gave work for you or they don't and it should be apparent within say a month?

You shouldn't need to be continually convinced and reminded weekly thru the 'video experience'. This is more bullshit folks. Here's how Mahrji works. He asks you for the moon. Waits to see who shows up with the moon on his doorstep, then asks for something a little less demanding like a country, and on and on down the line until he says forget all that it didn't matter anyway let's talk about something else until everyone forgets what was happening, then he starts asking for shit all over again. Example: To receive knowledge you must go to videos every week for 5 months, declare your devotion, go to events, etc. etc. then within say 4 years it is diluted to watch these 11 videos from home and I'll send someone over to show you the techniques. I'll stop here for now.

Conclusion:

MJ's trip is a successful family business! It's based on taking advantage of emotionally and mentally weak individuals who want someone, anyone to tell them what they are suppose to be doing with their life. So he keeps coming up with things for his followers to do and the only constant is it always involves giving him more money. Can this get any clearer?
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Date: Wed, Mar 31, 1999 at 10:09:43 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: I remember
Message:
Zac: When the techniques 'changed,' I had a k-review from (you ain't gonna believe this) Jagdeo. He said that M had scolded the mahatmas (publicly) for teaching the techniques incorrectly the first time. I guess M thought this would mitigate the simple fact that his dad taught the original mahatmas how to do it. Yup, blame the messengers....that ALWAYS works!
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Date: Wed, Mar 31, 1999 at 10:56:08 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Responsibility
Message:
Mike- that brings me to another topic. Maharji answered an aspirant's question once about the masters' responsibilities with:

'Responsibilities, Responsibilities, The master doesn't have any responsibilities.'

The question was posed in response to Maharaji's speaking about the responsibility of the student.

Even as a TPP (toilet paper premie), this came as news to me. Cause I know he is in control of everything. He has 100% authority yet now claims no responsibility. This is incredulous! Total bullshit! Even Orlando will agree with me here.

Never mind the fact that as a TPP I now have to rearrange my entire thinking about 'this trip' in order to fit this new upside down logic into my head. I am suppose to pretend that I knew this fact all along. There is no discussion of this major fact allowed. Anyone can glom from this that it is impossible to have any understanding of 'this trip' whatsoever because at any time Mahaji can come in with yet another fact that you really knew all along except you didn't. Maybe this is what he means by acceptance? 'Accept my bullshit,' said the master.

So this new concept of total responsibility on the students. How does one apply this practically? All edicts about how everything is run come from M. As published on this page introductory programs are outlined by him to the minutest detail. Say this don't say that. But we (premies) are 'responsible' for propagation in our community regardless of how unrelatable the programs appear. This goes in the same file as that old quote,'How does M makes devotees'? He puts them in one impossible situation after another.'

Now the reward for enduring one impossible situation after another is a mild high after putting in an hour of meditation. Is anyone getting more than this?

Please, 'this gift' which you can try for free is available on this site. You don't have to do anything for it. No strings attached! Instead would you rather put up with a man who has endless monetary needs, accepts no responsibilities whatsoever, and acts like the King of the World!

Who died and made him King? His father! It's a family business!
The only difference between getting the techniques on this page and plugging Maharji into the middle is what? Is Him. He is the difference. His wisdom, his genius, his fuck-ups, his affairs, his manipulation of people, his mistreatment of people, his exorbitant lifestyle. Someone please tell me what he has that is worth the aggravation he causes. 99% of the premies get no closer than hearing him speak at controlled events. The other 1% say it gets worse the closer you get. Is it truly worth it?

My conclusion:

'This trip' does not work without some measure of brainwashing.
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Date: Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 13:15:57 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: Responsibility
Message:
Great post Zac, you summed it all up right there. The only way a human being could put up with so much shit for so little in return has got to be due to brainwashing!
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Date: Sat, Apr 03, 1999 at 02:48:26 (EST)
From: Marshall
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: TPP ?
Message:
Zac,
What does toilet paper premie mean?
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Date: Sun, Apr 04, 1999 at 13:59:50 (EDT)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Marshall
Subject: TPP ?
Message:
TPP comes from Totally Programmed Premie which in subsequent posts I morphed into Toilet Paper Premie. (ie. Can take alot of shit)

Do your parents read this forum? Do they know you post here? I imagine that could be a wedge in your relationship with them.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 01, 1999 at 08:49:02 (EST)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: changed techniques
Message:
Mike,

Well, I knew Jagdeo didn't have it right when he couldn't even find my 3rd eye...

I also had a gut feeling (internal truth detector, as they say) that 'so-hung' was not the Word. I knew from reading the Tao that the true word could not be spoken.

Of course, I stupidly set aside my doubts, according to one of M's ridiculously embarrassing commandments...they didn't have to twist my arm to get me to keep the contents of the Knowledge packet secret.

Is 'so-hung' still the Word, according to M?

Love,

Victoria
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Date: Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 00:33:12 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Victoria
Subject: changed techniques
Message:
So ham is the phrase used. I see it in other yoga sources sometimes.
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Date: Wed, Mar 31, 1999 at 13:18:36 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: Acceptance
Message:
Great analysis Zac. It's the kind of thing really needed to dissect what M does.

Why does he use the term 'knowledge' when refering to the techniques. He's confusing everyone. For as long as I've listened to him I cannot say whether he is refering to the techniques or the 'experience' when he uses the term knowledge. They are not one in the same. If they were he'd give you the techniques and go home.

I think 'knowledge' is a cult code word to mean whatever Maharaji or anyone wants it to mean that is positive and includes Maharaji. It's the catch-all term that means meditation, grace, 'gift,' life, awareness of life, awareness of breath, devotion, gratitude, love for Maharaji, the experience people get at programs, and anything else.

In the 70s, 'knowledge' was essentially a practice. The experience of 'knowledge' was the experience you got when you did satsang, service and meditation. Of course, you also had to have faith and devotion to really make it happen, but that was really only disclosed after you were effectively hooked. And like you said, many people just got off on the devotion part of it and the practice wasn't really done. Indeed, Maharaji for awhile downgraded 'knowledge' as something inferior to devotion. Of course, he was trying to get a plane and that fit nicely.

So, since then Maharaji changed things and 'knowlege' no longer includes satsang and service, although video events, programs and 'participation' are also stressed. But premies and Maharaji now are able to have the facade that 'knowledge' is really just meditation and that HIS meditation makes everything else happen. It doesn't work, so 'gratitude/devotion' is essential once again.

And 'grace' and 'devotion' are still very much a part of the whole deal, except he calls devotion 'gratitude' which he says enhances or improves the experience of knowledge. I guess 'participation' supposedly does the same. You STILL have to believe in him and knowlege first before anything happens, so 'faith' and 'understanding' are also still stressed.

I think he watered it all down to hold on to premies and to get new people involved by claiming very little is required. But it's kept vague enough to accommodate the premies from the 70s who still are on a 'devotional path.'
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Date: Wed, Mar 31, 1999 at 13:57:14 (EST)
From: Marshall
Email: None
To: JW&Zac
Subject: Acceptance
Message:
Zac and JW,
I think you guys are really on to something with this thread. What a great deconstruction of Maharaji's scam. When it comes down to it the whole trip is 'faith' based just like all the other dopey religions. The only way they work is to have faith despite any obvious faults or contradictions.
When are people going to wake up? Should they? Faith is a tricky thing.
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Date: Wed, Mar 31, 1999 at 17:04:46 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Marshall
Subject: Acceptance
Message:
Yes they should wake up! Here's why.

If there is a God and he offers faith as his way to connect with him then he will be pissed if we try to have faith when we are really too lazy to think about things when we have the relevant information. Faith doesn't replace coherent analysis of information. It's only when the information ends and we run into the unknown that faith comes into play.

When what was once unknown becomes known one can't just sit around and say I'm gonna have faith. You have to take responsibility for what you know and act accordingly. It is through acting accordingly that correction will come to M's organization and to M. If they (premies) choose to sit on their hands and have faith the disasters will continue.
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Date: Wed, Mar 31, 1999 at 12:03:34 (EST)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Maharaji supports study of K!!
Message:
See, if the guy smiles at Maharaji and says he's 'got it, thank you very much' what can Maharaji do? He can either accept the guy's claim or get into all that nasty proof stuff he claims above is so inappropriate. The results, obviously, would be a farce.

You know Jim, you are an excellent study in how one's bias can completely shut down their ability to think straight. Are you discounting the existence of an internal indicator of what's real or not? Or are you saying we need assholes like you around to tell us poor simpletons whether or not we are satisfied? The degree with which you waste your time trying to debate something that cannot be objectively proven or disproven is an indicator of just how stupid you really are... but hey, you're a lawyer.
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Date: Wed, Mar 31, 1999 at 13:50:10 (EST)
From: Nim
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Nim supports study of Nil
Message:
Or are you saying we need assholes like...
Once again ladies and getleman, we welcome Nil, the #1 representative on this forum, for THE MAN WHO SHITS ON GOLD TOILETS
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Date: Wed, Mar 31, 1999 at 15:18:47 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Internal indicator???
Message:
Nil: 'That' internal indicator of truth has been used in the past (with GREAT conviction) to indicate the truth of the following:

1. The earth is flat.
2. The earth is the center of the universe.
3. The sun revolves around the earth
4. The universe rides on the back of a turtle

on and on and on and on.....ad nauseum!

While there was NO evidence of the above, people's 'insides' told them it was true and they just accepted it without question. Fortunately, there were those critical thinkers that put it all on the line to PROVE otherwise.

The 'internal indicator' isn't worth a tinkers damn....it's wrong more often that it's right! History proves that statement!
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Date: Wed, Mar 31, 1999 at 16:48:34 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Maharaji supports study of K!!
Message:
Are you discounting the existence of an internal indicator of what's real or not?

Aaahhh....Yes

Who came up with this concept? Barnum and Bailey?
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Date: Wed, Mar 31, 1999 at 17:16:36 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: Zac, Zac, Zac
Message:
Zac: C'mon, you know.....the 'internal indicator of truth'....you know.... the one that says, 'god put us on earth so it MUST be the center of all creation...I feel it in my gut...' You know....THAT one!

I think it really exists....and it's almost always absolutely WRONG!
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Date: Wed, Mar 31, 1999 at 18:00:24 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Mikey
Message:
I think it's the one that say's, 'I think I'm Jesus Christ. I feel like God on this LSD I'm taking. Yea, I'm am God, and so is he. Hey, we are all God. My internal indicator indicates that this is so. See this freckle on my wrist. That's the indicator. Ask me any question and my indicator will tell you the answer.
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Date: Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 13:10:50 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: Zac's magical freckle
Message:
HA HA...does the freckle on your wrist look like Elvis or does it weep the tears of the Virgin Mary?
All hail Zac's freckle!!
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Date: Wed, Mar 31, 1999 at 19:43:01 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Internal Indicator
Message:
Are you discounting the existence of an
internal indicator of what's real or not?


I don't discount the existence of it. I say the 'internal indicator' is also known as the 'shit detector.' I turned mine off or ignored it while I was a premie, but I don't do that anymore.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 01, 1999 at 17:15:29 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Internal Indicator
Message:
Joe:

Re: I don't discount the existence of it. I say the 'internal indicator' is also known as the 'shit detector.'

Also known as the 'Jerk Alert.' :-)

-Scott
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Date: Thurs, Apr 01, 1999 at 19:08:51 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Scott T. & JW
Subject: Scott & JW
Message:
You guys are mistaking your 'intuitive' inner voice (that is usually all messed up) with the fine art of THINKING! The Jerk Alert comes when you 'think,' not when you 'intuit!' he he he :-)
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Date: Thurs, Apr 01, 1999 at 17:11:32 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Maharaji supports study of K!!
Message:
Nil:

Re: You know Jim, you are an excellent study in how one's bias can completely shut down their ability to think straight.

Just how hard have you been looking, that you would know excellence when you see it?

-Scott
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Date: Tues, Mar 30, 1999 at 11:35:59 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Arguing the World
Message:
Hi:

I've been thinking recently about a documentary that aired two nights ago on PBS. The title was 'Arguing the World' and it was about a group of students at New York City College in the late '30s who were destined to became the basis of the 'Neoconservative' movement in the US. Since my friend, Martin Lipset, was part of that group of anti-Stalinist socialists who met in 'Alcove 1' at City College I found the documentary really fascinating. I was a bit chagrined that they didn't interview, or even mention, Marty... but them's the breaks. He was frequently in the pictures, however, looking much younger than I could even imagine.

It is a fascinating story about a group of young blue-collar jewish idealists who became disillusioned with Marxism, especially Stalinism/Leninism, as a direct result of the skepticism of Leon Trotsky. They remind me of this group in many ways. Primarily self educated they began to see the flaws in Marxism and became the primary principled opposition to the Stalinists who met in 'Alcove 2.' It's also fascinating that so many of the giants of political sociology and philosophy came from within this group: Daniel Bell, Philip Selznick, Nathan Glazer, Martin Lipset, Irving Krystol, Gertrude Himmelfarbe, Aaron Wildavsky, on and on. I urge anyone even vaguely interested in the topic of Authoritarianism to see this show.

-Scott
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Date: Wed, Mar 31, 1999 at 11:51:13 (EST)
From: '>',,,,crowbill
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: they might be giants
Message:
We can mention Marty when the documentary of this
group of future giants gets recorded.

I was wondering when you were going to speak up again.
Took a vacation?
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Date: Thurs, Apr 01, 1999 at 09:25:05 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: '>',,,,crowbill
Subject: they might be giants
Message:
bill:

Re: I was wondering when you were going to speak up again.
Took a vacation?


Yeah, it's called 'work.' :-)

Re: We can mention Marty when the documentary of this
group of future giants gets recorded.


I don't think Marty is relevant to this group. He's missed his chance. The stars here are Jim and Katie. Jim is the Irving Krystol character, and Katie is Irving Wahlberg. Instead of 'Alcove I' we have 'Forum III.' It's uncanny.

-Scott
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Date: Tues, Mar 30, 1999 at 00:34:15 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Manguage of the heart (1)
Message:
[Here're some of the particularly stupid things our former Lord and Creator in Human Form said today]

LIFE IS LIFE
How should we begin to understand Knowledge? And where should our understanding begin?

We have compiled so many thoughts in this life. We think about religion and so many other things. But life and breath have no religion. Breath is not Hindu, Christian or Moslem.

Breath is breath.

Life is life.

And blood is blood, and pooh is pooh. Sheep, can you think of some more lines for this poem?

When a child is born, it has no religion. When our bodies are lying lifeless, we also have no religion.

We accept all this, but what is reality?

Reality is that breath which comes in and out of us every moment.

Hmm. That's not the way I learned the language. Rather, it's more stupid cult talk. It's mangled language, 'manguage' if you will.

TROUBLE AND STRIFE
In this life there are so many riddles, but this life is not a riddle. In this life, maybe there is a lot of pain, but life itself is not painful. There can be many problems in life, but life itself is not a problem.

Well, fuckface, life isn't a riddle because 'riddle' assumes someone posed it. Life IS a mystery however. And is it painful? Yes, at times. Yet it'd be stupid to simply say life is painful or 'a problem'. Why, guru-ji, do you have to talk so messily? Just to piss me off? If that's the program, relax, you piss me off just by being a 'successful investor'. Trust me on that one.

But how do we understand life? What do we need to understand and accept that will enable us to understand and attain the joy that is within us?

Two separate problems, kemosabe -- UNDERSTANDING life and hitting the elusive big pinata. Life's real, the pinata isn't. You shouldn't mix them up in the same question.

Some people say that this life is full of pain and problems. Why? Because when someone experiences pain, that is what he will express. People do feel pain. But the masters and saints say that we are really fortunate to be alive.

Stop the presses! This is potent stuff! You know, you could pretty well usher in a thousand years of peace with talk like this. Have you ever thought of becomming a GUUURUUUU or something? I see talent, bubba, ral talent.

OPPOSITES
How can these two opposites be reconciled? Which of these points of view is true? I say that both are true.

If a person is experiencing pain, how can it be denied? And if someone is experiencing beauty and joy because of Knowledge, how can that be denied? Both are true.

Hold it! You're going a little fast for me here. Please, Maharaji, have mercy on my limited consciousness. Be gentle. I'm trying but you're just moving so darned fast.

One way to see it is like this: we can be in danger on a boat on the ocean going up and down on large waves. But we can also be where the water is calm and serene. Both exist.

Where is your boat? Is it rapidly moving up and down in the waves? Or is it where the ocean is calm and you are enjoying it.

Hey, that's a question that stops my clock and makes me think. Are there any questions that have that effect on YOU? How about 'Why did you tell the whole world you were the Lord of the Universe?' That must really get to you at times, eh? Got any other heavy thinker type questions? Huh? This is fun!

SECRET PLACE
For us the world is constantly going up and down, yet there is another secret place where the waves are calm. The saints and masters have said that if you want to discover that place you need to find a master to give you Knowledge.

Oh those Saints and Masters! Real characters, weren't they? I hear you can get a complete set of pewter Saints and Masters for under $400 on the net someplace. I'm not sure if that includes EVERY branch of the Badsalami tradition but I bet it's got a lot of them. Mmm MMM! Saints and Masters!

Where will Knowledge take you? It will guide you away from the very rough ocean and take you within to experience peace.

A FALSE FOCUS
But where are our ideas and thoughts focused?

We concern ourselves with rituals, relationships and relatives.

People are always rushing around saying: 'I've got to do this. I've got to do that.'

AN APPOINTMENT WITH BREATH
I see people walking around writing in their diaries: 'Got to do this. Go to do that.' But do they ever write: 'Today, I have got to breathe'?

No more than 'today I have to go pee pee' quite frankly. Or today I better make sure my heart doesn't stop. But thanks for the reminder. Good stuff! What'd you sya your name was? Very helpful. Remind me to recommend you to someone. Very helpful indeed.

This is something we really need to understand, because if we stop breathing, no one will come to any of our meetings.

INSIDE OR OUT
We all need love. Why is that? It is because we have an in-built thirst for love.

But what kind of love do we need? And should we search for it inside ourselves or outside?

Do you want a love that is uncomplicated by the world and which never changes?

Or are you looking for a worldly love? If so, this will just come and go; it seems so large at first but gradually it gets smaller.

True love is just the opposite of this. It starts almost unnoticed but with time it grows and grows and grows. Achieving such a love will fill you with gratitude.

And what do you call the love you have for your mistress, Lord? Ture, semi-true or just a little some'n some'n?

WAYS AND MEANS
In the same way we need peace. Why? Not because we have read it in the scriptures, but because there is a real thirst for it in our hearts.

All the world is looking for the same love and peace. Most of you live here in India. Around the world people have their different ways and means of doing things, but no matter where they come from, they need peace.

This has no connection with religion. This is based on the fact that we all have a need for peace and a thirst for love inside.

The only way we can fulfil this life is from within.

NO DIFFERENCES
What have I learnt about the world? I have learnt that in the world there are differences in everything.

And I have learned that one can reduce anything to absurd levels. Thanks for the reminder. What'd you say your name was?

However, Knowledge teaches that there are no differences; that a human being is a human being and that which is constant is within.

Attain that. In the world everything moves up and down, but within all is calm and peaceful.

You have been given Knowledge. And Knowledge works.
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Date: Tues, Mar 30, 1999 at 00:34:59 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Manguage of the heart (2)
Message:
A WEIGHING GAME
Yet do you accept it? Or do you compare it and weigh it?

Throughout your lives you have weighed everything The bazaar is nice - or not so nice. It is the same with cars, people, trees and vegetables.

You go to buy a mango. Some are good and some are not so good. Even the ones that look good can taste sour when you start to eat them.

Hey, Guuuuruuuuuu! Looks like you're close to hoisting your fat ass on your own petard! So you DO think there's a reason to bring experience and scrutiny to the old 'mago' problem, eh? I knew it. Bet you didn't mean to say any of this, did you? It just slipped out. Ha!

We have to look inside as well as outside. Why aren't we able to accept that?

People say I want to experience things just the way they are written about in a book. If you want that, read the book!

KEEP IT CONSTANT
If you want to experience that which is constant, that experience is available through Knowledge.

Do you want to experience that for yourself? If so, accept it. After we have received Knowledge we start to compare rather than accept it.

If you say you do not have time to practice, you have not understood some essential things.

CHUTNEY TIME
In his poem about the grinding stones Kabir says he is crying because they crush everything that falls between them. Between the stones, which are just like the world, everything is turned to chutney.

A lot of people focus on this poem about being crushed by the grinding stones, but there is another poem by Kabir in which he describes how you can be saved by being close to the pivot point (at the centre of the stones.)

With Knowledge you should be able to understand that.

If you don't accept Knowledge, if you don't accept the master, how will you be able to benefit from this opportunity.

WALK THE RIGHT PATH
This is the path of the heart and you need to walk on it every day. Each morning, when you wake, you can do this by realising how lucky you are to be alive. You should truly awaken and be conscious.

TWO DOORS
With Knowledge you can make the conscious decision to go through one of two doors: the door of the world which opens into confusion, greed and anger or the door within which brings love, peace and bliss.

Without Knowledge there is no choice. But for people with Knowledge they can say: 'At least I have this other door.' That is the door to take you within.

A BRIDGE INSIDE
The techniques are a bridge to get you from one side of the river to the other. They take your attention inside. The experience is already within you. The techniques do not create the experience. If the experience was not already within you, what good would Knowledge be?

THE APPLICATION OF LIFE
We need to apply Knowledge in our lives. If we don't, then we don't even have time for ourselves.

You are not practicing for me. No. You are doing it for yourselves to fulfil your own lives.

THE RIGHT FOCUS
The way of the world is that one day your friends will be saying flattering things about you but the next day they might be insulting you.

Now WHERE in the world did you get that idea, fuckface?

If your attention is focused within, the gratitude you feel will mean that these insults can just come and go. If you are listening to birds singing there is no need to throw a rock at a crow to stop it, you just have to focus your attention on the songbirds which sing sweetly.

FULL ADVANTAGE
Take full advantage of this Knowledge and fulfil the potential of this life.

Really enjoy this life.
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Date: Tues, Mar 30, 1999 at 00:43:05 (EST)
From: cp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Manguage of the heart (2)
Message:
What is so silly is that he phrases it like nobody has a clue of it unless he tells them.
Talks like we are all stupid.

I know plenty of people without knowledge that have figured out the big THING and practiced it.
They dont have a problem with the potentiol of this life.

M is a frustrated kindergarten teacher.
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Date: Tues, Mar 30, 1999 at 06:16:15 (EST)
From: Bill Cooper
Email: None
To: cp
Subject: Manguage of the heart (2)
Message:
I think I'd rather have the teaspoon set.
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Date: Tues, Mar 30, 1999 at 08:53:49 (EST)
From: tweety pie-Crow.org
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Songbird.org
Message:
he said 'your friends (freinds? who the hell fit in that
catagory?) say nice things about you and then they insult you.'

Count me in that crowd but when were we freinds?

He just has to focus on the songbirds 'avoiding life.org'
and ignore the crows -us- the victims of his lies.

If you don't accept the master, how will you benefit from your breath????
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Date: Tues, Mar 30, 1999 at 08:57:03 (EST)
From: bill Crow
Email: None
To: tweety pie-Crow.org
Subject: john crainer the liar
Message:
john crainer said that he took notes of the nepal event
and then put them on his website ignoreing life.org.
But he was lying because he taped the talk but didn't want
to admit it because WE aren't supposed to do it.
HE can. He lies. What does it matter since it is all illusion anyway. right jc the liar?
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Date: Tues, Mar 30, 1999 at 09:51:33 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Manguage of the heart (1)
Message:
Jim: As you well know, you ain't a sailor until you've 'rapidly moved up and down in the waves.'

Hey Maharaji: Why do you want to know 'where my boat is?' Are you going to try to steal it?
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