Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum III Archive # 44 | |
From: Mar 30, 1999 |
To: Apr 19, 1999 |
Page: 1 Of: 5 |
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Date: Fri, Apr 16, 1999 at 00:47:47 (EDT)
From: peter howie Email: petebear@ozemail.com.au To: Everyone Subject: Myths and stories - powerful Message: Does anyone remember these old stories that went something like this Hans Ji was giving a public meeting. There were heaps of new people and a bunch of mahatmas. When HJ rose to leave all the Mahatmas were pining for his attention and he walked out straight past them not giving them the time of day. A new person came up to speak to him and he immediately stopped and had a quick chat with this person. Amongst other things spoken about, the new person asked HJ how come he gave no attention to the mahatmas who were grovelling, prostrating etc big time. Well HJ answered something like this in a voice full of disdain. 'They have already been given the greatest gift there is, they have everything and more that they need. They can practice knowledge. That is all they need.' A real double head fucker all right. The other one I heard - or maybe it was a complete steal from Kabir et al 'When you die you will cry in regret for all eternity at each breath that you wasted not remembering the holy name (and loving the lord etc), while you were alive in this body' Myths and stories are an extremely powerful source of teaching, control and indocrination in any group. I work in organisations and it is usually the local myths that carry the most weight. e.g. People in an organisation may have great visions and goals about learning and development but when you talk to them about the famous stories in the organisation they may be about 'the incredible drinking bender the executive management went on at a conference'. So people attend my training programs warmed up to having incredible benders just like their bosses. I haven't thought through the power of the myths and stories of premiedom (apart from the fact they were very many and powerful in keeping me and others involved) - I only know the principles. And as I read your posts I suddenly remember a story or two. The two stories above I recalled while reading the posts under the 'What is Celibacy' thread. I mean how many times did you or someone you know recite a story as a way of keeping you involved or keeping your mind at bay? Cheers Peter Howie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Apr 16, 1999 at 02:03:02 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: peter howie Subject: Myths and stories - powerful Message: So true Peter. Loved the analogy about the drinking bender! Oh the things that drive organizations (and families!) These myths can cause us to re-route our lives, they are so powerful! That dumb Swami Satchinanda tale convinced me GM was the guru for me. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Apr 16, 1999 at 03:04:54 (EDT)
From: Miloochie Email: None To: peter howie Subject: Myths and stories - disgusted Message: 'When you die you will cry in regret for all eternity at each breath that you wasted not remembering the holy name (and loving the lord etc), while you were alive in this body' This one sounds damn familiar. Whether it is just another rip off from some other Messiac Hitler, it sets me right off. I'm mean this stuff just pisses me off to no end. How to create a holocaust of living souls for that coolness of gold on his bare ass. And with that kind of advice, I can find more peace watching all-night slasher flicks. Miloochie (a not-so-reformed Hothead). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Apr 16, 1999 at 17:50:46 (EDT)
From: Mary M Email: None To: Miloochie Subject: Myths and stories - disgusted Message: Wow Miloochie, I love it when you get your 'Irish' up! Well said! xo Mary Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Apr 16, 1999 at 05:59:17 (EDT)
From: KK Email: None To: peter howie Subject: Myths and stories - powerful Message: You make mention, Peter, of one of the great mythologised icons of the cult - SHRI HANS JI MAHARAJ. For all I know he was some conniving desperado who conned millions of rupees out of poor, illiterate and disempowered Indian villagers. Not necessarily the great chosen ONE but probably an adept spiritual politician. The anecdote about his dismissive style with the obsequious mahatmas resonates with my experiences of both MJ and premies. To take it further, the particular form of 'depersonalisation' that was instantly visited upon someone when they erred. You and I both know what happened in Bondi ashram in the early 1980s when one newish young Western initiator committed a transgression with an aspirant/new premie. NOONE WANTED TO KNOW HIM. He was a sinner! Dismissed. The guy must have had a nervous breakdown from the ostracism alone, let alone his own feelings of guilt and confusion regarding the woman etc. NO-ONE CARED LESS, as I recall. Me included. I wrote him off completely and continued the hero worship of the 'well behaved' initiators and the Lord. Let's face it - our urge to be good premies - YES, we were all into it - made us willing to believe that SHRI HANS' behaviour was totally cosmic and acceptable. I remember going to LA specifically to see MJ, at his request and sitting in a hotel for TEN DAYS STRAIGHT until he was ready to speak to me for five minutes. Devoted premies around the world paid the hotel bill (I ate a steak on room service, by the way). Towards the end of my premie life, this trivialisation of people, their resources, their lives and their openheartedness started to seriously frighten me. The virtually pathological ability to dispense with people because they were confused, uncool, expressing doubts, not 'surrendering the reins of their lives' in the manner that I saw fit. The things that premies object/ed to in others are/were illegitimate - they were the machinations of thought police, goodie-goodies and wowsers. I would NEVER rely on any media, gossip column or hearsay to find out what anybody eats, drinks, thinks, believes in, did, said, etc on the basis of how absolutely misguided people become when their need to believe in something causes them to forsake their fundamental decency as people and perpetuate whatever suits them. God knows what Shri Hans was REALLY like - we'll never know. All we've got is the perfect tale of divinity. Back to the dehumanisation: I remember a premie who moved to the headquarters to do service. His personal credit card was continually used for divine purposes (and paid off). He worked hard but he lost the plot. Seriously lost it. Couldn't get out of bed, talk, went ga ga. He was shipped back home to his city to his parents WITH NO MONEY and a credit card full of divine debts. This was a common scenario but bears exemplifying because it demonstrates the meanspiritidness which characterised inter-premie dealings. The Lord had nothing to directly do with it - it was all premies. He kept coming to programs and fringe honchos continually said that he was to be 'watched', don't let him near the darshan money etc. Assholes. According to years of well scripted brainwashing, the knowledge, the Guru, the whole deal is the solution to the world's problems etc - you all know the rap. For a bunch of global peacemakers, what an unbelievable cess pit. Shri Hans was clearly a querulous and obnoxious person - he left a devastated and divided family, an embittered second wife, a bunch of jigolo sons and a stack of dodgy anecdotes based on a hybrid Hindu concoction which contrary to everything promulgated since by his filial twerp, he did not actually have a monopoly on. What a jerk! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Apr 16, 1999 at 07:23:59 (EDT)
From: Happy Email: None To: KK Subject: Myths and stories - powerful Message: Couldn't agree more. Well put. I also felt very strange about the divinisation of Hans Ji. In order to understand M's behavior, we have to look back and scutinize the Rawat family history. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 17, 1999 at 11:27:20 (EDT)
From: Jethro Email: None To: KK Subject: to KK: Re: Bondi ashram Message: Re:You and I both know what happened in Bondi ashram in the early 1980s when one newish young Western initiator committed a transgression with an aspirant/new premie. Was this guy from the UK? I shared a room in the ashram with someone this happened to for sometime. The same happ[ened to him, I was wondering if it's the same person. Do you remember his name? Regards Jethro Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 18, 1999 at 05:09:10 (EDT)
From: KK Email: None To: Jethro Subject: to Jethro: Re: Bondi ashram Message: Was this guy from the UK? No. I shared a room in the ashram with someone this happened to for sometime. The same happ[ened to him, I was wondering if it's the same person. I guess it was reasonably common. Do you remember his name? Yes. Bye Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Apr 16, 1999 at 10:39:41 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: peter howie Subject: Myths and stories - powerful Message: Good point. Those mythical stories, entirely irrelevent and non sequiturs in relation to the issues at hand, were used to avoid addressing real people and to cut short any doubt or thinking. I think Westerners might have been particularly susceptible to this type of con, with quotes from inscrutible guys like Kabir and unverifiable stories about Shri Hans. [Isn't it interesting that we rarely heard anything about what Shri Hans actually SAID. Rather we heard anecdotal stories about what he DID, like beating people with sticks and such.] So when Maharaji tells the story about the woman who lived her whole life cleaning her house for ONE 5-minute chance to have tea with the perfect master, it's a statement of what REAL understanding is about, and makes our own problems seem trivial, and we feel guilty for even thinking about them, and they are worthy of repression. So we ignore and repress them, remain mindless devotees, and continue the psychological damage. As I recall, in the Maharaji cult when someone raised a problem, often the solution was to talk about your death, about how short life is and something like the story you mentioned about missing breaths. What garbage. It's basically a threat -- a story cloaked in fear. But I notice some premies who come on this forum defending Maharaji, still do the same thing. Something like: It's not about thos things, it's about your breath. In the end all you have is your breath, and one day you won't have it and blah, blah, blah, veiled threat, nonsense. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Apr 16, 1999 at 11:45:49 (EDT)
From: AJW Email: None To: peter howie Subject: Myths and stories - powerful Message: Hi Pete, I think you've hit a seam. There's lots of work by people on the power of myths and stories. Perhaps the best known is by Joseph Cambell. I think that the reason most people hang around after learning the techniques is because of a two or three of very powerful myths. The first is that Knowledge is God. The 'entree' which preceeds this one is that God is within. Premies find no problem interchanging the words 'God' and 'Knowledge'. The second myth is that there is such a thing as a 'Perfect Master', or God walking around as human. Jesus, Buddha etc are cited as previous Perfect Masters. Bolted onto the side somewhat discreetly, is the idea that these 'Perfect Masters' are somehow connected to each other through initiation ceremonies. Maharaji sees himself in this tradition (see his website). Sort of attached to the second myth is the idea that Maharaji is the 'Present Perfect Master'. Myths have lots of positive effects. Even atheists tell their children that Santa Claus comes down the chimney every year. But in the end, we all have to grow up don't we? Anth Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Apr 16, 1999 at 12:29:37 (EDT)
From: Roger Shri Hans Drek Email: None To: AJW Subject: Shri Hans legitmate Master? Message: Was Shri Hans even the legitmate successor of his Satguru? Is this whole house of cards based on a lie made by Maharaji's father so many years ago because he needed a gig? Where is this lineage of a singlie living Perfect Masters going back to Krishna, Jesus, Buddha, Allah, et al.? Am I reading this stuff correctly? We are very fortunate to have Jean-Michel's excellent site which has so much historical information including the Eternal is He, Eternal is His Knowledge originally Published by Divine Light Mission, B-19/3, Shakti Nagar, Delhi 7, India - 1970. This DLM document is loaded with Shri Hans myth. Also from Jean-Michel's site is this from Paramhansa Advait Mat which I excerpt here where Sarupanand is Shri Hans' guru: It may not seem so surprising therefore that the 'Advait Mat' book does not anywhere mention Shri Hans Ji , even though he is claimed by some to have been the successor to Sarupanand. The book clearly paints a different version of events, whereby Sarupanand is described as appointing a disciple named 'Shri Swami Vairag Anand Ji Maharaj' as his successor (see pages 244-247 of the book). It is probable that the current Advait Mat group do not recognise Shri Hans as a bonafide successor to Sarupanand. Neither is it likely that they will recognise Shri Hans' eldest son Satpal (formerly known as Bal Bhagwan Ji), who also has a following today, both in India and the West. (His followers are almost certainly not as numerous as those of his younger brother, PremPal). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Apr 16, 1999 at 13:47:01 (EDT)
From: Jethro Email: None To: Roger Shri Hans Drek Subject: Shri Hans legitmate Master? Message: I knew one of the mahatmas of Shri Swami Vairag Anand Ji Maharaj, who told me that he(the mahatma) was a fellow discipe of Sarupanand. He said the he remembered hasji as a great satasang giver. We didn't talk poliotics, but he told me that when Sarupanand died, 4 of the devotees set up their own organisation. I haven't seen this mahatma for about 7 or 8 years, but will visit him again(he has an ashram here in London) and see if he can give me any more info. regards jethro Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 17, 1999 at 22:46:35 (EDT)
From: Runamok Email: None To: Jethro Subject: Shri Hans legitmate Master? Message: Some Indian acquaintances had told me that Sarupanand's heir was not Miragey's dad, years ago (almost 20). Hey Jethro, this guy youre talking about, he's not from Mirage? What's the dudes name? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 18, 1999 at 00:17:46 (EDT)
From: Jethro Email: None To: Runamok Subject: The guy is a devotee of... Message: one of the other Gurus that claimed to be the satguru after sarupanand. (THey even say jsca to each other, and they mathatma names like gurucharanand etc.) As for his name(my mahatma friend), I called him....eeeeer mahatma G :>). I have not seen him since I have EX'd myself, so I will soon pay hima visit. Maybe he'll offer to give me Knowledge...you know this time form the REAL satguru. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Apr 15, 1999 at 08:20:12 (EDT)
From: Becky Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Elan Vital targets London Uni Message: There are Elan Vital programmes every Wednesday in the Brunei Gallery, opposite the School of Oriental and African Studies. I sent load of stuff from this site to the Director of SOAS, and tried to get through to him to ask who is reponsible for this. He has proved most elusive and has never answered my letter. If anyone else is in the mood to tear away the image of harmless respectability of Elan Vital, please stop M using my college for his sick little game. SOAS has its own website, where I think you can contact staff there. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Apr 15, 1999 at 09:36:59 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Becky Subject: SOAS website URL? Message: You forgot to tell us the URL to their website. I'm sure they'd get some email about it if people knew how to reach the site. I sent load of stuff from this site to the Director of SOAS, and tried to get through to him to ask who is reponsible for this. He has proved most elusive and has never answered my letter. Perhaps he's a premie? Who would be in charge of the University there? In English-speak, I mean. Post the URL and I'll check it out, or someone over in the UK will. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Apr 15, 1999 at 10:19:01 (EDT)
From: UK Sherlock Email: None To: Brian Subject: SOAS website URL? Message: The site for booking the gallery is:- http://www.soas.ac.uk/Brunei/conference.html There is an email address for booking enquiries. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Apr 16, 1999 at 14:21:12 (EDT)
From: nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Becky Subject: Confront them directly, I say! Message: Hi Becky, I find this choice of location disturbing, especially since the average undergraduate is at the prime age for getting involved in a cult. But unless EV are breaking any law, I doubt the SOAS would cancel any meetings, as if they did it would look just like religious persecution to any outsider, and I doubt they would want to risk that. More effective, surely, to organise a small group of 'interested outsiders' to attend a meeting and ask some very difficult questions. All the more effective if the questioners were well-armed with embarrassing factual information gleaned from this web-site. If the EV organisers try and palm them off with referrals to Booth Dyess, or invitations to follow-up meetings, they could say something like: 'If you're not prepared to answer some very simple questions about Maharaji and his movement, and you're prepared to cloak in secrecy your belief that M is the Lord in Human Form, and that you like to kiss his feet, then all I can say is this sounds just like a cult to me... Say it very loud (but politely, of course). If they bar you from attending the meeting, you could organise a small picket outside carrying signs reading: 'Maharaji is a fraud and a leech. Be warned!' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 17, 1999 at 20:26:31 (EDT)
From: Runamok Email: None To: nigel Subject: Confront them directly, I say! Message: In fact, it might be easier to post the website's address with objective information (and wouldnt take much typing either)- Disgruntled ex-followers of Maharaji discuss his history and their feelings at ex-premie.org or something like that. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 18, 1999 at 00:44:48 (EDT)
From: Jethro Email: None To: Runamok Subject: They don't give a shit Message: Most educational institutes are money oriented, I doubt very much that they give 2 hoots about who uses their buildings as long as they get paid. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 18, 1999 at 00:46:01 (EDT)
From: Jethro Email: None To: Jethro Subject: Most educational institutes Message: in the UK. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 08:01:22 (EDT)
From: Becky Email: None To: Jethro Subject: Tres vrais Message: I think I shall distribute info about this site at the Brunei gallery Wednesday meetings - when I have the time. Thanks for the suggestions. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 14:12:53 (EDT)
From: JB Email: None To: Becky Subject: Elan Vital targets London Uni Message: Yes, exactly Becky. Let's stop them from speaking. These people shouldn't be allowed to open their mouths. Then lets ruin all of their personal businesses. Only us 22 people in the entire world really know what's going on. We better stop them before they make people receive knowledge by force. Good for you, Becky. Thank God we're free. JB Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 14:48:38 (EDT)
From: JHB Email: None To: JB Subject: Elan Vital targets London Uni Message: JB (BTW your handle is too close to mine, I hope no one confuses us). It sounds like you disagree with Becky's proposed action. Firstly, she is not suggesting stopping anyone speaking, just allowing those who listen to read an alternative viewpoint. Secondly, many, many thousands have left Maharaji, not just 22. Even on this forum, I'm sure many lurk without ever posting (as you no doubt have been doing). My concern with Becky's action is that some bongo premie may cause her harm if she attempts it. If we do decide to take this form of action, I think it shouldn't be alone. John. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Apr 15, 1999 at 08:19:53 (EDT)
From: Zac Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Did you know? Message: That the requirements to receive knowledge have been reduced dramatically. You can now watch 11 videos in your home and you don't have to go to a hall to be bothered by the local aspirant coordinator. You will have to attend a selection. But that's about it. Except that there is this one little requirement that you put no other God's before him. Yes, that's right folks. I did not attend all the meetings but I heard it close enough. M and K must be your way to God no other religions, meditations, spiritual stuff allowed. Now if that isn't the purest definition of a cult what is? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Apr 15, 1999 at 08:40:00 (EDT)
From: Zac Email: None To: Everyone Subject: meetings Message: Let's be clear here. I did not attend any meetings. Though I can imagine there were many many meetings to convey a simple fact as this is always necessary in a cult. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Apr 15, 1999 at 11:39:23 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: Zac Subject: Did you know? Message: 'M and K must be your way to God no other religions, meditations, spiritual stuff allowed.' Well, at least they are finally being honest about this. I remember being told 'You can be a Christian and practice K, you can be a Muslim and practice K,' etc. But the truth was that if you actually DID try to follow your religion and practice K, you were suspect. And since M was the LOTU, there really wasn't any reason to follow a religion or any other spiritual stuff. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Apr 15, 1999 at 12:32:49 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Zac Subject: Did you know? Message: You can now watch 11 videos in your home and you don't have to go to a hall to be bothered by the local aspirant coordinator. How do you think they decided on 11? I mean, why not 10 or 15? You will have to attend a selection. But that's about it. Except that there is this one little requirement that you put no other God's before him. I would bet that the 11-videos-and-nothing-else requirement is just for consumption by gullible aspirants. I doubt anyone will be selected for knowledge if the selector doesn't have good intelligence from the premie community 'aspirant coordinators' that said aspirant has appeared frequently at video events, and was duly indoctrinated. Has anybody heard of anyone receiving knowledge who did nothing but (supposedly) watch videos at home? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Apr 15, 1999 at 13:05:45 (EDT)
From: Selene Email: None To: JW Subject: Did you know? Message: Maybe they/he are getting desperate since people aren't exactly clammoring to get into this, er... organization. While simultaneously, I doubt M's expenses have lessened. Hey JW, I have a way off topic question - a friend is trying to get me into internet trading. He insists I'd be good at it. I hve been reading this stuff. I have the URL. Should I just email you? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Apr 15, 1999 at 13:53:24 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: JW Subject: Did you know? Message: I doubt anyone will be selected for knowledge if the selector doesn't have good intelligence from the premie community 'aspirant coordinators' that said aspirant has appeared frequently at video events, and was duly indoctrinated. Why not? If you've paid for all 11 videos, maybe that's all that's required. Just bring your receipt to the Knowledge session and you're in. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Apr 15, 1999 at 13:44:48 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Zac Subject: How much? Message: Do you have to buy the videos, rent them, or just take them home and return them when you're done? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Apr 15, 1999 at 13:58:46 (EDT)
From: John Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Oh, how cynical I've become! Message: You know, that's a good marketing ploy they are using. Why allow someone to come and watch the same video someone else bought. Make the person buy the set of eleven, which also gets them in the habit of buying their own. I mean, really what's the point of the community anyway? By saving the premies, the cult leader loses money. If everyone has to buy their own videos to watch think of how many more he could sell. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Apr 15, 1999 at 14:17:08 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: John Subject: Oh, how cynical I've become! Message: Not only that, he could cut costs on renting halls for video presentations. Where I am, they show videos every night. Maybe they're going to do away with public showings altogether, except to meet, say, once a week to pick up the next video. It should be interesting to see how they're going to set this new scheme up. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Apr 15, 1999 at 21:23:47 (EDT)
From: crow Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Jerry -ot- Message: Hi Jerry, would you provide a link to the article on the (otherworldly) web site about the mine in Kosovo? I think Sir david and others would be interested Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Apr 16, 1999 at 17:07:59 (EDT)
From: QuasiPremie Email: None To: Zac Subject: Did you know? Message: Are you sure? (I don't think so.) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 17, 1999 at 09:08:44 (EDT)
From: Zac Email: None To: QuasiPremie Subject: Did you know? Message: Then tell me what you think. Since I don't attend I have to rely on paid informants. If they are not performing reliably I'll have to replace them. What do you know Quasi? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 22:08:21 (EDT)
From: Denise Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Guru Papers Message: To all of you who recommended this book, thanks!!! It is definately a must read for all exes and those premies who have doubts about M. It just seems to describe him specifically, though it was written about a number of cults (there, I said this C word!) and gurus. I can't imagine reading it (though I've only gotten thru half so far) and not having any doubts. The book pretty much wiped out those little nagging feelings of 'Am I sure he's not the real thing and I'm just having a temporary lapse of reason?'. To all of you who haven't read it, do! Thanks again, y'all. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 23:11:28 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Denise Subject: Guru Papers Message: Denise, Can you imagine, I got Linda Gross to get the book. She read it and said it didn't faze her a bit. Same with LOTU. Denise, wait 'til you see this video! No shit, it's funnier than Spinal Tap -- well, it's about as funny anyway. I strongly recommend you invite some friends over and make a night of it. Believe me, it's a gas. Oh yeah, how're you going to get it? well, I actually bought the sucke from some old film and video outlet place in Chicago. Cost way too much but since then there have been a bunch of copies circulating. Ask and ye shall receive. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Apr 15, 1999 at 05:10:50 (EDT)
From: Happy Email: None To: Jim Subject: stages of cults Message: I'm just reading the Guru Papers right now as well, much due to the recommendations from this site. I knew about the book from before, but there's so many books about cults, I did not think it would be much different from the others. However, it really is a very good book. I like the emphasis on authoritarianism, and the analysis of gurus' personalities. I'm right now at a point where the authors describe the stages of cults: 'From Proselytizing to Paranoia'. The authors suggest that the initial stage is messianic, with the message being that the cult & guru is there to save the mankind. During this phase, the guru is confident that he actually will succeed and be the one to lead the world out of darkness. The major emphasis is on proselytizing and bringing in new converts. As long as the guru still sees the possibility of realizing this ambition, he - according to the authors, at least - exercises power through rewarding the enthusiasm of his followers with praise and position in his hierarchy ( = PAMs). He whets and manipulates desire by offering carrots (does it hold for M? To some extent, for sure - carrots of becoming an initiator, of doing service directly to him, etc. But M also used threats very much, perhaps even more than direct carrots. There were lots of implicit carrots, of course, for everyone, sbove all the carrot of the possibility of realizing K if you did S,S&M). Quote: 'The energy and excitement of proselytizing, conquest, gaining public attention, and of newcomers flocking to the group are what makes a cult feel vital and prosperous. Cults need a continuous stream of recruits and potential converts to reinforce the belief that they're 'where it's at' - the vanguard of spirituality on the planet.' Soo true! At one point, though, it becomes inevitable that the guru is NOT going to take over the world, at least not in the immediate future. When the realization comes that, new quote, 'humanity is too stupid or blind to acknowledge the higher authority and wisdom of the guru, the apocalyptic phase enters and the party is over.' The authors then suggest that either one of two things happens: Either the guru's message becomes pessimistic, voicing something like civilization is going down the drain, only we have the truth, we are therefore wisely withdrawing and we 'will survive as a pocket of light amidst the darkness, then afterwards we will lead forth a new age'. The cult withdraws, perhaps to a farm, perhaps to Amaroo... The other possibility is that in order to attract more people, the guru makes increasingly extreme promises and bizarre claims, to attract new following. Quote: 'One guru went so far as to promise levitation and invisibility; another group claims that through proper daily chanting, people can achieve their every desire/.../'. Clear addresses to the Maharishi and the Harekrishnas. I would suggest that M had a bizarre renaissance period, too, with his Krishna costume, dancing, foot-kissing phase - that was when 'propagation of K' had been getting more and more problems, and there was time for a new gear of devotion. It worked for some time, but now that doesn't work any longer, in the West. Only among Indian followers, in India, Africa, and so on. There, the cult clearly is in another phase than here. Now, M has 'withdrawn' in the West in the sense that he keeps a low profile, and his followers never even mention him to family, friends and colleagues. And, he has introduced k-lite, in order to facilitate this strategy. Gurus at this stage - according to the authors - develop more and more traits of paranoia (so true in the case of M - just look at enjoinglife.org...). The book suggests that as cults get more and more paranoid, they develop a kind of doomsday mood. It creates a heavy turnover of people. Those not 'serious' enough leave, and others begin to question the leader's omniscience. In order to counteract this, the group becomes more militaristic, demanding even greater obedience, quote: 'One guru had everyone busy building bomb shelters. At this point, cults often have members learn martial arts or begin stockpiling weapons. Fear now becomes the primary mechanism of the leader and the group to maintain power and cohesion'. Now, this is certainly a possible development of cults, but not a necessary one. Here, the book is at odds with scientific research on cults. Yes, it is possible that paranoia of the leader and core members force the cult into this stage, and we know this has happen in several cases (People's Temple, the Star of David, the Solar Temple, Aum Shinrikyo). But, the most common development of cults is simply that they loose credibilty, cool down, and fall into oblivion. In some cases, they survive by turning into fairly accepted 'sects', not requiring too much, but not offering very much either. That's what K-lite is all about: No enlightenment, no saving of the world anymore, no guru, just a teacher who shows you how to 'enjoy your breath'! In a few lucky cases, these sects later have turned into world religions. Some kind of sect development appears to be a likely one for M and EV, if M plays it 'kewl' and manages to keep his nose above the water. However, he might easily loose this Mahabharata (as Roger Drek put it), and go down as Rajneesh did. That's what his paranoia appears to be mostly about. Just some thoughts, being this far in the book. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Apr 15, 1999 at 08:22:48 (EDT)
From: Zac Email: None To: Jim Subject: Can I borrow a copy of the Message: LOTU video? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Apr 15, 1999 at 09:21:28 (EDT)
From: Denise Email: None To: Jim Subject: Guru Papers Message: Jim, Can I please, please borrow it? Give me your email address and I'll give you mine and an address to get the video. You're in England, aren't you? *Denise Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Apr 15, 1999 at 11:04:03 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Denise Subject: sorry Message: Hey guys, I'm not the one to ask for a copy of LOTU. For one, I don't have an extra. I took mine to Gary Ockendon, Michael Dettmers and soem other premies I know in the Kootenays (interior British Columbia) and they never sent it back. Plus, I live in Canada and, believe me, it's a real pain shipping stuff over the border here. Plus, I figure I did my share. I actually bought the thing (for about $65 U.S.). No, there are other copies out there that are much easier to access, especially if you're in either the U.S. or England (I'm in Canada). Sorry. But then there are several copies by now, I imagine. Aren't there? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Apr 15, 1999 at 05:12:27 (EDT)
From: ex-mug Email: None To: Denise Subject: Guru Papers Message: this is truly an amazing read, I loved it! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Apr 16, 1999 at 16:50:39 (EDT)
From: Denise Email: None To: y'all Subject: Guru Papers Message: Just wanted to pass on a passage from the book and an example from the beloved Master: 'People whose power is based on surrender of others develop a repertoire of techniques for deflecting and undermining anything that questions or challenges their status, behavior, or beliefs. They ridicule or try to confuse people who ask challenging questions. Throwing the question back to the questioner is a common, easy-to-use ploy.' On several videos from about 6 months back (and he's probably still repeating this story for emphasis), M tells the story of a K session where a woman raises her hand at the end of the session when he asks if there are any questions and tells him she didn't experience anything. His response was 'You didn't experience ANYTHING? You didn't experience ANYTHING?' (repeats a few more times) The tone of voice he uses is of ridicule while asking her this repeatedly until she says something to the effect of: 'Oh, thank you, Maharaji!' This story bothered me when I heard it because, although I had an incredible experience in my K session, some close friends of mine had little experience. My initial response to the story was that it was obviously not o.k. for one not to have an experience in their K session. I hadn't considered the angle that he was making this poor woman an example through ridicule and basically sending an unspoken message to aspirants not to question their experience or lack of it, especially not out loud in public. In my K session (private, aspirants were scare then), my initiator Kathy Siddick, was very kind and patient and answered all questions in a loving manner. I had just met her the day before my session when she came to my city and she just interviewed me for about two hours and then told me to come back the next day for my K session that was about 7 hours long! It was as easy as that for me, I feel sorry for others who went thru hell to get chosen. By the way, anyone know what happened to Kathy? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Apr 16, 1999 at 18:39:59 (EDT)
From: Mary M Email: None To: Denise Subject: Guru Papers Message: Denise, Well I'd sure like to know where Kathy is. She's originally from Wilmington, Delaware and received K in 72. She's been a PAM for many years. I met her in 1972. She was in the process of getting rid of all her worldly goods to follow Rawat. The only thing she had left was an old tombstone with the initials 'MEM' on it. She and my ex thought this was portent and that I needed to die to 'self'. She gave me the tombstone. Yes, Kathy is sweet... sweet as cow or sheep manure. If you find her let her know that MEM re-claimed herself. I would love to personally present the tombstone to her and recommend she get some counselling for the serious delusional state she has lived in since 1972. Cheers, Mary M Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Apr 16, 1999 at 21:33:09 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Mary M Subject: Kathy Cituk Message: All I can tell you is that I've heard of her and from her a long time ago, maybe as much as two years past. Shit, I'd like to say more but, well I'm confused about the ethics. Anyone want to email me, we can discuss it: heller@bc1.com Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Apr 16, 1999 at 23:20:23 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Jim Subject: Kathy Cituk Message: She is an ex-premie, lives in Marin County, California and does some kind of new age counseling or therapy of some sort. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 18:55:42 (EDT)
From: UK Sherlock Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Elan Vital in the UK Message: Here are the details of the registered charity 'Elan Vital' in the UK. Anyone know who James Shaw is? I like the 'Areas of Benefit' entry - 'Not Defined'! ELAN VITAL Registered Number 1016818 Subsidiary Number 0 Other Name(s) n/a Correspondent Details JAMES W SHAW CHAIRMAN 3 THE DRIVE HOVE EAST SUSSEX BN3 3JE 01273 747179 Objects TO ADVANCE THE EDUCATION IN THE UNDERSTANDING AND REALISATION OF HUMAN POTENTIAL THROUGH SELF-KNOWLEDGE BASED UPON THE TEACHINGS OF PREM PAL SINGH RAWAT K/A MAHARAJI. Area Of Benefit NOT DEFINED Registration Date 28/01/1993 Register Removal Date n/a Removal Reason n/a Governing Document TRUST DEED DATED 22ND OCTOBER 1991. Area(s) Of Operation NATIONAL Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 19:03:34 (EDT)
From: UK Sherlock Email: None To: Everyone Subject: DLM in the UK Message: Here is the DLM entry:- THE DIVINE LIGHT MISSION (This charity was removed from the Register Of Charities on 13/11/1995 ) Registered Number 264682 Subsidiary Number 0 Other Name(s) n/a Correspondent Details A.D.SAUNDERS ESQ. CHAIRMAN OF TRUSTEES DIVINE LIGHT MISSION P O BOX 131 PORTSLADE EAST SUSSEX BN4 1HJ 01273 820311 Objects TO ADVANCE RELIGION IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE PRINCIPLES OF SRI HANS JI GURU MAHARAJA AND SRI SANTA JI GURU MAHARAH BY PROMOTING THE KNOWLEDGE THAT GOD IS THE SUPREME CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE: THE REALISATION OF GOD WITHOUT NOMINATIONAL BIAS; THE RELIEF OF PREVENTION OF SUFFERING BOTH MENTAL AND PHYSICAL OCCASIONED BY POVERTY, ILL HEALTH AND THE ABUSE OF DRUGS. Area Of Benefit NATIONAL AND OVERSEAS Registration Date 06/10/1972 Register Removal Date 13/11/1995 Removal Reason CEASED TO EXIST Governing Document TRUST DEED DATED 16TH JUNE 1972 Area(s) Of Operation NATIONAL & OVERSEAS County n/a Administrative District n/a Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 19:14:31 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: UK Sherlock Subject: Well, well, well.... Message: UKS: With a stated goal of, 'THE RELIEF OF PREVENTION OF SUFFERING.....' it's no wonder we were fooled. Notice that they are 'relieving the PREVENTION of suffering!' How does he do it? By relieving you of the cash needed to prevent suffering! snicker..snicker ;-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 20:24:33 (EDT)
From: Zac Email: None To: Mike Subject: But Mike, Elan Vital's new Message: web site says Maharaji receives no compensation from Elan Vital. Voluntary contributions and sales of its materials support Elan Vital in the US. Admission to events is free of charge.:-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 17, 1999 at 02:52:40 (EDT)
From: Liz Email: None To: Zac Subject: But Mike, Elan Vital's new Message: Whats this new Elan Vital Website? Do you have the address?? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 17, 1999 at 09:10:32 (EDT)
From: Zac Email: None To: Liz Subject: But Mike, Elan Vital's new Message: I was leaving it for you to guess. www.elanvital.org Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 18, 1999 at 07:02:34 (EDT)
From: UK Sherlock Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Elan Vital in the UK Message: James Shaw, the Correspondent for Elan Vital, UK, is a partner for the UK law firm Kennedys. Here is his entry at the Kennedys web site (www.kennedys-law.com) :- 'James Shaw email: j.shaw@kennedys-law.com - Company & Commercial - Construction (non-contentious) - Insurance/Re-insurance (non-contentious) Head of the Commercial Unit of Kennedys' City Office. He is also a Partner in the associated Northern Ireland office. He handles non-contentious insurance work including policy drafting and insurance regulatory and compliance work as well as mainstream commercial matters (eg: mergers and acquisitions). Mr Shaw's department also specialises in noncontentious construction work such as terms of appointment for engineers and architects and terms of building contracts. Mr Shaw is also qualified as a solicitor in Northern Ireland.' Somehow they've forgotten to mention his role as legal adviser for Maharaji in the UK. Also, is this role compatible with his role as correspondent for Elan Vital? Conflict of interest, surely! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 09:09:43 (EDT)
From: Zac Email: None To: Everyone Subject: NSA Waterfilter Business Message: Would anyone like to comment on their involvement in the NSA Waterfilter Pyramid business? I had a friend who got involved and bought a garage full of NSA filters. I think he spent $5000 on the scam and sold not a one. The water tastes fine around here and he didn't figure on the work it would take to move 'em. Can't wait to tell him he supported gold toilet seats for the guru. He..he. He started giving them away and then got tired of that and dumped them somewhere. My guess is that it started in LA and MJ got in on the ground floor. Who was Mj's upline? Prentice Uchida? This sounds exactly like the Chuck Nathan deal. You help me with your influence over your devotees and I'll give you a peice of the action. They must have contacted someone in every major city to start the businesses there and my guess is that 5- 10 premies were involved in every city. Anyone else have a garage full of NSA waterfilters out there? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 10:04:18 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Zac Subject: NSA Waterfilter Business Message: I went to a seminar and could see that it was very cult-like. I said no thanks. My neighbor got into it and didn't make any money. Don't tell me this is another GM spin-off. Is it? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 11:01:01 (EDT)
From: Zac Email: None To: Helen Subject: NSA Waterfilter Business Message: I know it was mentioned on a previous thread. But have heard no elaboration. It just seems that the more one offers one's help to Mahrji the greater the chance to get screwed. Especially if you've written off all thinking, reading, learning and expect all the answers to come from M. I can almost guarantee that some premies saw this as a chance to do direct, vital service to M and are now sitting on thousands of dollars of water filters. The right thing to do in a screwed up situation like this would be for Mr. Uchida to buy back the unsold filters and move them himself or through others. You know one for all and all for M. Somehow I doubt that's the way it went down. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 13:50:46 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Zac Subject: NSA Waterfilter Business Message: This is what I heard. Uchida or somebody set Maharaji up as the head of a group of water filter sellers, meaning, like with Tupperware and Amway, Maharaji would get a cut of each sale that the premies made. The idea was the premies would jump at the chance to have Maharaji as the head of the pyramid. Anyhow, someone reported that it was a bit of a failure - lots of premies lost money, etc, both in North America and the UK. I don't think M was an actual investor in the business. It was just a pyramid scheme. When I bought my house it had an NSA water filter, which is a big tank, installed under the sink in the kitchen. When I had my kitchen remodeled last year, I decided to replace the water filter, not because you really need one around here, but I figured since it was there, why not. So, I got a phone number off the filter and called NSA in Tennessee and ordered a new filter. It wasn't cheap. It cost around $250. So I installed the filter, and it immediately sprang a leak. There was a tiny slit in the side of the tank and it flooded my kitchen cabinet. So, I sent it back and they sent me a new one. It works okay, but I can see why they aren't popular. There are better, cheaper, smaller filters on the market now that are much easier to install. Later, I found out NSA was fined by the State of Tennessee for engaging in fraudulent consumer practices of some sort. This was in 1997 or 1998. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 15:36:53 (EDT)
From: Zac Email: None To: JW Subject: Anything and Everything Message: What I gather is that Mahrji will jump into anything and everything where he makes money on the backs of others. I understand he wasn't an investor. I guess he was sort of an endorser and encourager this time. Doesn't he understand or care about the impact on a person who loses $5000 on a scam he endorsed. There must be someone out there with a garage full of water filters for sale at discount prices who can elaborate on this? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 18:04:05 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Zac Subject: Anything and Everything Message: Hey Zac I should've known the seminar had GM's fat little fingerprint on it--it had that weird hyberbole feeling to it, the videos with the waterfalls, etc. Hell, I was just answering an ad that said 'earn big money'. This sneaky deceptive business shit really pisses me off. My neighbor went into debt over it--there's no way he would have gotten into it if he knew the Maharaji conenction as he is a devout Christian and a more ethical man you will not meet!! This really pisses me off. The only good thing I can say about being involved with M is my bullshit detector has a huge range now. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 18:16:45 (EDT)
From: Zac Email: None To: Helen Subject: Anything and Everything Message: Helen: I believe Maharaji was just one of the players in the NSA pyramid scam (business). If Prentice Uchida was one of your neighbor's upline distributors then congratulations to your neighbor they bought one gold toilet seat for MJ and can legitimately post on the X forum. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 18:04:23 (EDT)
From: crow Email: None To: JW Subject: NSA Waterfilter Business Message: Prentice Uchida asked m to sign up as a distributer of nsa. Prentice would sign up after him and run the business of his and m's distributership. Prentice got m to say yes and prentice got the business off to a big start. I myself have no reason to think prentice did a bad job of maintaining a downline in this multi level business. There WERE investigations in numerous states about sales tactics. But multi level marches on. It is not hard to check on prentiss's status. And prem rawats. The nsa people keep lists of thier diamonds and ruby's ect. multi level is big business and premies were just the start of the chain. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 19:37:28 (EDT)
From: Mary M Email: None To: crow Subject: Is this the right Uchida? Message: Hi Crow, Is this the same Prentiss Uchida? NUM: J90192 ST:FL INACTIVE/FL PROFIT FLD: 08/27/1987 LAST: ADMIN DISSOLUTION FOR ANNUAL REPORT FLD: 09/26/1997 FEI#: 65-0042405 NAME : CLEAR RESOURCE CORPORATION NH: 1 CHANGED: 08/02/91 PRINCIPAL: % PRENTISS S. UCHIDA ADDRESS 4300 SOUTH U.S. HWY ONE, SUITE 203-202 JUPITER, FL 33477 NAME CHG: 08/10/92 RA NAME : UCHIDA, PRENTISS S. RA ADDR : 4300 S. US HWY ONE SUITE 203-202 JUPITER, FL 33477 ANN REP : (1994) B 05/01/94 (1995) B 06/21/95 (1996) B 05/01/96 CORP NUMBER: J90192 CORP NAME: CLEAR RESOURCE CORPORATION TITLE: PD NAME: UCHIDA, PRENTISS S. 2504 SIERRA CREEK RD AGOURA, CA Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 20:09:00 (EDT)
From: crow Email: None To: Mary M Subject: Is this the right Uchida? Message: Yes, oh great detective. Also, Steven Sordoni is the rich premie that was being milked during the 707 era. He might show up somewhere. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 23:27:44 (EDT)
From: Brogan Brat Packer Email: None To: Mary M Subject: Is this the right Uchida? Message: Not only did you get the right guy, you got the right company...because Clear Resources was the company Prentiss created EXCLUSIVELY for generating income for m. This was m's baby in Prentiss' hands. Prentiss had one humoungous downline of buyers that ran up to Clear Resources, which qualified him at the highest level of NSA's marketing plan, the position of National Marketing Director,or NMD. He then had another downline for himself, smaller than the Clear Resources line but still enough to make him an NMD in NSA... TWICE OVER!! Great work Mary! Ooooh, I like the way you do the things you do!! Luv ya, BBP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Apr 15, 1999 at 00:20:57 (EDT)
From: Brogan Brat Packer Email: None To: Mary M Subject: Correction Message: 'Prentiss had one humoungous downline of buyers...' should read 'Prentiss had one humoungous downline of distributors...' Guess all that talk about Amtext book Buyers is what threw me off... Geez, I'm glad that Nim is out of here... We can all use a break. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Apr 15, 1999 at 07:34:13 (EDT)
From: Zac Email: None To: Brogan Brat Packer Subject: Correction Message: They were called distributors but I believe they bought the product for resale so for all purposes he recruited people to buy from him. So in his mind as well they were buyers of his product. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 20:08:47 (EDT)
From: Zac Email: None To: crow Subject: Multi level marches on Message: But did we know that the lord of the universe was the sole beneficiary upline? Thanks for the post. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 20:53:17 (EDT)
From: crow Email: None To: Zac Subject: Multi level marches on Message: Yes, it was mentioned, against the 'rules'. And that was part of the hook to do it. I declined. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 21:10:18 (EDT)
From: Zac Email: None To: crow Subject: So Maharji's involvment in NSA Message: was supposed to be a big secret. Why? I believe I know why. Because Maharji KNEW that it was unethical of him to mistreat those whom he had undue influence over this way. He knew that sometimes people lose money in these scams. He knew that there would be premie suckers who'd fall for it. But Prentice sold him on how much money he could make for doing nothing and he figured it was worth the risk. He does not have his devotees best interests at heart. Period. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 23:48:04 (EDT)
From: The Ballad of MJ and OJ Email: None To: Zac Subject: For a brief shining moment... Message: there exisred an association between MJ and OJ. That's right! It goes like this. As soon as NSA started to see the steam going out of the filter business, they were hoping to get all their distributors all reved up about this new product... a juice tablet. And who did they get to promote the new NSA juice tablet?...none other than every body's favorite party guest, next to MJ himself of course...OJ Simpson!! Oooh, what a team!! Of course, they probably never got to meet. Soon after making his NSA video, OJ became ...well you know kind of preoccupied with things. And I guess they'll never meet now, because...well you know, these days MJ is kind of preoccupied with things. Geez, isn't life unfair sometimes. Hm. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Apr 15, 1999 at 14:51:23 (EDT)
From: Stevei Email: None To: The Ballad of MJ and OJ Subject: WHO IS UCHIDA? Message: Who is this Uchida guy...is he an ex-p ...what is his connection with M? Pyramid marketing is accepted as a scam..I understand that in some countries...and it may also be in some US states..it is illegal... Why does M use his sheep for Pyramid marketing...I guess making money..or making the Worlds water clean and pure for the soul... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Apr 15, 1999 at 22:57:38 (EDT)
From: Buddy Rose, Private Eye Email: None To: Stevei Subject: WHO IS UCHIDA? Message: Who is this Uchida guy...is he an ex-p ...what is his connection with M? Well we're not sure if he's an ex yet, but it looks like he may have been squeezed out of the inner circle of MJ's money making elite corp of cut throat little pricks. NSA ended up as bust for MJ. Lots of pissed off premies... and m's windfall from it fell below his expectations. Not exactly the equation for bliss. I have this theory that Prentiss might of gotten the job of taking care of Rajaji as punishment for the NSA debacle. We're lookin at it Stevei, and we'll keep you posted. Pyramid marketing is accepted as a scam..I understand that in some countries...and it may also be in some US states..it is illegal... Why does M use his sheep for Pyramid marketing...I guess making money..or making the Worlds water clean and pure for the soul... But that's it it right there Stevie, can't you see it? He's doing it for your soul, and mine, and for his, and everyones. He's doing it because he wants to be YOUR SOUL BENEFICIAL OWNER. Thats the word from Buddy Rose, Private Eye. Later Stevie. Hopefully much later:):) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 02:18:31 (EDT)
From: peter howie Email: petebear@ozemail.com.au To: Everyone Subject: What did celibacy mean? Message: Not quite as excting as finincial highjinxs. When I was in the ashram (1977 - 1982) we were all celibate. Well apart from those that simply screwed around, screwed each other, screwed aspirants, screwed prostitutes etc. I was never quite sure what that meant. Mostly I believed it meant no sex - which meant no orgasms - which meant no arousal - which meant not thinking, fantasising about such stuff. This was a pretty tall order. So I went through periods of abstaining from any arousal, any masturbation - the worst thing that happened was the odd (and they were pretty odd) wet dream every 6 months or so. So there I was trying to be 'celibate'. And everynow and then my eyes would pop out of my head seeing some gorgeous person and my hormones would race and before I knew it I had masturbated. Others, of course, I later discovered simply went for it and had sex (where possible). Now this of course left me feeling evil, in my mind, unclean etc etc. So I sang arti with greater fervour, serviced with greater vigour, doubted less than ever, promised never to do 'it' again, etc. It was pretty bizarre. Sometimes I would run into a porno magazine - in a newsagent, at work (Construction at the time - the loos were full of it), sometimes only an any old womens magazine and the hormones would be on again - I would prey to the lord, try and distract myself, listen to a tape of the lord, stare at his picture. If that didn't work then I went down the long and slippery slope to hell - which was extremely energetic and adrenaline charged - at least until orgasm. Then doom, despair etc. If on the other hand I made it - that is I lost the urge - then I felt like I had conquered the world and felt really free. Anyway the longest I went as a 'pure' celibate was 2.5 years. This is all pretty weird. But the only premie I ever spoke to about this - who swore black and blue that he was celibate - turns out he was having sex regulalry with prostitutes. This is tricky stuff as it contains many other issues. Anyway how did you guys from ashram land interpret 'clelibacy' Cheers Peter Howie ps After the ashrams closed I found that there were very few who had even abstained from sex. What a simpleton me eh! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 07:27:28 (EDT)
From: Jethro Email: None To: peter howie Subject: What did celibacy mean? Message: Helo Peter I was celibate from 1974-82(3?) For me it meant no physically intimate relationships or masterbation or 'wicked thoughts'. I can honestly say that I didn't want sex for all that time; the dedication bit to M turned of the desire for sex.It was enough for me to know that I was under agya. When I 'relost' my virginity in 82/3 I had to force myself to 'act it out' (I didn't actuallu have the urge)in my attempt to rejoin the human race. Well i suceeded and have never looked back :>). I haven't talked about this much as most people refuse to believe me. Also, like you, I also believed that everyone in the ashram was celebate. I only found out about all the goings on years later. I guess I am another simpleton. All the best Jethro Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 08:33:44 (EDT)
From: JHB Email: None To: peter howie Subject: What did celibacy mean? Message: To meant it meant no sexual activity, and, as far as possible, thoughts. I was celibate apart from one wet dream in the two periods I was in the ashram (1 year, and 2 months). Although I later became aware of those who deviated from the path, I suspect it wasn't the majority (although I've no evidence of this). Maybe a poll of exes would help. John. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 10:17:14 (EDT)
From: Victoria Email: None To: JHB Subject: What did celibacy mean? Message: I was never in the ashram, but I figured celibacy meant no sex by Bill Clinton's definition...which is why I figured it was okay to fool around in the car with this outrageously attractive ashram premie. Years later, when he left the ashram, I discovered what my mother meant by 'the joys of delayed gratification.' After I left M's world and studied Eastern Religions, I learned of a celibate group of monks who meditated on rotting corpses in order to put down their sexual urges...kind of interesting, ay? You guys meditate on M and they meditate on rotting corpses...hmmm. Basically, I never felt like I HAD to give up anything. All the premies kept saying that, as you got deeper into M's world, your desires would just fall away, effortlessly. It was like this for me -- as I spent more and more time meditating, going to satsang and doing service and going to programs -- I spent less time partying, going to movies, reading books, dating... Did those desires 'fall away' or was I just too damn tired and broke? Victoria Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 12:52:56 (EDT)
From: Jethro Email: None To: Victoria Subject: What did celibacy mean? Message: Hi Victoria 'Did those desires 'fall away' or was I just too damn tired and broke?' The subtext of the whole cult is that only K is of value and everything else is useless. I remember him saying 'If I was premie, just an ordinary premie and not a guru maharaji, I would have a job so that I could travel to festivals to see GM'. That basically disses everything anyone has going for them, discouraged them to develop themselves and gets all the focus on HIM. Regards from Jethro PS to Prem Pal:Prem why don't YOU try living a strict ashram life for a few years? I wonder if you ever knew what real dedication is. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 13:09:34 (EDT)
From: Prem and Proper Email: None To: Jethro Subject: What did celibacy mean? Message: Jethro: NO and NO! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 13:30:56 (EDT)
From: Victoria Email: None To: Jethro Subject: Who cares about the rent? Message: Well, that WAS the reason I worked for Temporary Office Help Agencies...so I could take off to go to festivals. Didn't pay much, of course...but I met lots of new people to bring to satsang! Yuck. I remember just before a program, some musician premies singing a song -- 'Who cares about the rent, Guru Maharaj Ji's having a festival!' We were all broke from traveling to programs every couple of months. Love, Victoria Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 21:03:34 (EDT)
From: Zac Email: None To: Jethro Subject: Job to festivals to job Message: Hi Jethro- Man that quote how can he get around that quote. I remember he followed that up with something about being content to be a speck of dust at the back of the hall or outside the hall. This from a guy who absolutely demands everything to be perfect for HIM. These statements by M are why this is such a mindfuck. He says these things with the absolute conviction of a professional liar. And premies, myself included, continued to believe and forget and forgive and overlook and give a second chance and on and on and... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 10:10:35 (EDT)
From: Mary M Email: None To: peter howie Subject: What did celibacy mean? Message: Well, I had a celibate 'Soul Rush' honeymoon. It also meant that M was controlling another aspects of his followers lives in an unreasonable manner. Just don't forget he was getting his all along. Contrary Mary Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 11:04:12 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Mary M Subject: What did celibacy mean? Message: Yes indeed, 'do as I say, not what I do.' Celibacy--an incredibly inbalanced way to expect someone to live. It's indefensible that M expected this and it created all sorts of other problems. What a bastard. By the way I heard that the Catholic church issued a statement that it is tantamount to abortion if those refugees being raped by the Serbs take the morning after pill. This angers me to the EXTREME. 60,000 refugees are starving in a camp in Macedonia, and countless women are being raped, many IN FRONT of their children, and THIS is what the Catholic church has to say? It's sick, in my opinion. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 11:10:43 (EDT)
From: Happy Email: None To: Helen Subject: pope on the pill Message: I agree fully, Helen. This is horrible, it is hypocrisy of the worst kind. What the pope is saying about the pill is really 'the fool 'squared' on the hill'. I just can't stand it. The pope should be ashamed. On the issue of celibacy in the ashram : I realized celibacy was not for me, that's one of the main reasons I left. Besides a general distrust of M developed after seeing a golden residence toilet, after the Millenium hubbub, etc. It all happened about the same time for me. I left the ashram very early. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 12:16:43 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Helen Subject: What did celibacy mean? Message: Dear Helen, Unfortunately the Catholic Church is like that! It really angers me also. Here these women in water aerobics are trying to get me back into the Catholic Church and invited me for a thing on Good Friday. I told them I probably wouldn't make it, was having an anxiety attack just considering it. The one lady said she played the music and would like if I could hear it. I told her if I did go, which I didnt', that I would stand in the vestabule and just listen. You know how eb has ebism, well I have concocted something like that. Little pieces of this or that that have applealed to me. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 12:08:14 (EDT)
From: Sueno Agua Caliente Email: None To: peter howie Subject: What did celibacy mean? Message: Not quite as exciting as financial highjinxs. But about as important! What a sickness we subscribed to! I was never in the ashram, but in a Pre-Ashram where control might have been tighter because like Avis we tried harder. First, the sheer exhaustion of living the ashram schedule left little energy for sex. Second, there is a little privacy issue where you had none. You're sleeping on the floor in a room with 5 other men. It's a messy job, you know. It appears that the ashram premies were having much more sex than us Ashram aspirants. One reason was because the ashrams had attics, basements, and garages. Confession: I was at the Orlando festival with the stage on the lake. There were so many beautiful sisters running around almost naked. That first evening in the hotel room I was sharing a bed with some brother and I woke up to a wet dream. Yuck! Fearing discovery I slept on the floor. And during that entire time Maharaji was out on tour with Marolyn tagging along while being accompanied by a PAM dude to divert suspicion. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 12:30:28 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Sueno Agua Caliente Subject: What did celibacy mean? Message: Yes the lack of privacy was the main reason I wouldn't have survived the ashram for 10 minutes. The privacy issue ties into what Run said about how it's really nobody's business what you do in your private life--but in the premie world we were not supposed to have individual desires or needs. This is so damaging I can't believe it. Everyone needs privacy. Love the Spanish word for 'wet dream' by the way!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 12:35:59 (EDT)
From: AJW Email: None To: peter howie Subject: What did celibacy mean? Message: I was in the ashram for about a year, around the age of 24. As regards sex, I had three types. For the first three or four months I danced with the five fingered widow. She left me for about three months. She was blind, deaf and dumb, but even she couldn't handle me in my most gung-ho religious period. After her departure, my sexual drive took on a life of it's own when I was asleep. I had wild moments with all sorts of women. Often during the middle of sex, I'd find myself running through my old school playground, wearing a... well I won't go into the details in such a public place. The result was waking up in a puddle about twice a week. I really enjoyed this period, as I didn't feel guilt about my orgasms, unlike my liasons with the widow. Anyway, she heard about creatures from the astral plane jetisoning my genes, and came back to the ashram. Shortly afterwards, my wife reclaimed me and everything seemed to end up in the right place again. Antonio el Heretico Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 13:03:57 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: peter howie Subject: What did celibacy mean? Message: Peter: It meant 'turning down' one of the most beautiful women (internally and externally) that I had ever met......MAN, was I a dummy! Here I was, in a situation where it was being offered on the proverbial silver platter and 'I' said NO! Why???? Because I believed that I was suppossed to be 'beyond all that physical stuff' while I was residing in a premie house in portland! Hey, Scott and Carol.... do you remember Shannon? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 13:29:50 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: peter howie Subject: What did celibacy mean? Message: In my opinion, celibacy and requiring celibacy is about controlling people. Maharaji had the ashram premies be celibate because sexual relationships, especially if they are or lead to loving relationships between people are potentially more powerful than his cult programming is. If sex wasn't forbidden, there would have been very few ashram premies in a fairly short period. There would have been marriages and babies and those interferred with the total devotion and surrender Maharaji was demanding. In the ashram culture, the greatest single element of maya that could knock you off the path of total surrender and devotion, was interpersonal relationships, especially those that included something as powerful as sex. So, celibacy was the rule. I know some ashram premies screwed around, but I think they were a rather small minority, except perhaps in the renaissance of 1976 and towards the end of the ashram period. I believe the vast majority of ashram premies did try very hard to stick to their celibacy vows, as stupid and damaging as they were, and most of them did. By celibacy, I don't mean not having sexual thoughts and I don't think it meant lacking sexual gratification -- those were not really threats to the control Maharaji had, although one was certainly made to feel guilty about those desires and actions. No, it was really the sexual exchange that happens between people that was the true threat to Maharaji. It was more relationships, not sex, that were the threat to Maharaji's cult. But the only premie I ever spoke to about this - who swore black and blue that he was celibate - turns out he was having sex regulalry with prostitutes. That's pretty weird. There was plenty of sex available in the premie community without going to prostitutes for anyone who was looking for it. Plus, ashram premies had no money (poverty was one of the other vows, along with obedience). How did this guy afford to pay a prostitute? I was in the ashram for 9 years and I was celibate all that time, except right towards the end, I had a brief sexual tryst with one of the women in the sisters' ashram. I did it more out of rebellion, and I also did it, I think, because I wanted a 'black mark' on my initiator application, as I was afraid I would be selected and have to go to Malibu and be in that concentration camp/torture chamber/mindfuck known as the the ITP -- the Initiator Training Program Maharaji ran there. Plus, I had had enought negative encouters with Maharaji and his childish and arbitrary anger, that I didn't want to be around him. I also instinctively didn't want to take any further steps towards dedication than I already had. As I have said before, in my opinion, a disproportionate number of the ashram brothers at least, were gay. In one ashram I lived in, I'm aware that at least 5 out of the 12 brothers were, although this was never discussed. [This is similar to the priesthood and religious orders, by the way. It is estimated that 40% of Catholic priests are gay.] Especially in the 70s, when there was even more homophobia, both external and internalized, than there is now, I think the ashram was also a means to avoid facing sexual orientation, either consciously or unconsciously. I also think there were straight brothers who were intimidated by women and sex and the ashram provided a means of avoidance. I know for me, I was pretty confused about my orientation. In fact, for awhile, I credited the lack of sexual attraction to women as a sign of my spiritual development, or maybe the grace of my master that I prayed so hard for. Of course, at one point towards the end, I got a huge crush on one of the ashram brothers, and it became pretty clear why all that was happening. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 14:10:26 (EDT)
From: Marshall Email: None To: JW Subject: What did celibacy mean? Message: It's funny to look back on the 70's premie days. I was born in 1967 so I was pretty young then, but I remember the way things were. I actually think that I saw things a lot more objectively than most of the adults around me who were devotees. It was my impression that there were at least two varieties of premies. There was the uptight, serious, rigid type and also the more hippy, loose, hipster style. It seems that people who were shy or had trouble relating to the opposite sex could kind of 'hide out' in the cult. People who probably wouldn't have been having sex anyway now had a reason or excuse for their chastity, which was pretty unfashionable in those times. Conversely there were those that found the cult to be a good feeding ground for sexual partners and used the social atmosphere to fool around as much as possible. Basically the way I saw it was their were the 'nerds', and their were the 'cool cats'. The cool cats were 'getting laid' and the nerds weren't. Sounds just like high school. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 21:28:15 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Marshall Subject: Bullshit, Marshall Message: Bull-fucking-shit, I should say. The fact is, most young people in our culture who aren't under either a physical or religious curse start getting sexually active in their late teens and early twenties. Some are more active than others but pretty well everyone gets going sometime in this period. But Maharaji simply froze our sexual development. There's no way in the world that all these 'brothers and sisters' would have avoided the opposite sex if celibacy weren't aprt and parcel of the Hindu devotional trip. Sure, there were 'cool' premies and 'nerds' if you want to think of it that way but, I tell, you, that's really simplistic and misleading thinking. For one thing, a lot of previously 'cool' folk took on the rigid yolk of hardcore premiedom just because they were serious about 'realizing knowledge'. The ashrams were replete with all sorts of previously 'hip' guys and gals who wore their acquired 'straightness' as a badge of honour and integrity. They were intent on somehow surpassing their egos and personalities. Why? Because they had a mission, a destination. All of their coolness, they thought, was just something else to be surrendered to the Holy Lotus Feet. But yes there were all those other premies too, the ones that fucked around, smoked a little dope (or worse [better?]), maintained lives and interests outside the cult. The fact is that these people were simply not dedicated to realizing Knowledge. Maharaji made it abundantly clear time and again that the path required full-blown sacrifice and one-pointedness. He tried to wipe the smirks off the cool ones' faces and, at programs at least, it looked as if he actually did. That's when the ashramies and other straight-aheaders smirked a bit on their own part, knowing that, at least as far as the Lord of the Universe was concerned, they were more or less kind of trying. Staying in the cult was necessarily problematic for anyone trying to enjoy a life in the world too. My theory is that the easiest way to do that was to play dumb. The kind of sacrifice Maharaji was asking for was clear and uncompromising. The only way people could hang around and not cough up 'that extra effort', 'that real sincerity' was by pretending they just didn't get it. Most of the hardcore premies I knew realized that, given that Maharaji was the Lord and everything, that just wasn't the way to play it. Of course, we gave more, bet more and lost more. Oh well. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Apr 15, 1999 at 01:17:54 (EDT)
From: Marshall Email: None To: Jim Subject: Opportunist Premies Message: I know saying that some premies were cool and some were nerds is simplistic, it was definitely more complex than that and I was just trying to make a point about high school style hierchies(sp?) In my town they didn't even have an ashram, the premies here were kind of slackers compared to some places it seems, so things were a little looser than places where people were more dedicated. I felt that some premies seemed to be more respected for their inspiring satsangs or speaking presence, etc. than others. This was of course 'in your mind thinking', well I was in my mind then I guess because I sensed a pecking order, from the silver tongued, tall, groovy, rich guitar player guy down to the bespectacled, pale, disturbed guy that lived in someones basement. There also seemed to be a contest among some people too see who could be the most detached and robotic. It just seems like people joined for different reasons and that some people were less sincere and were more opportunistic, and posibly never believed in Maharaji anyway. I wonder if any of those PAM's like Dettmer were just in it for the bucks from the start. Did they just see opportunity, and a network of gullible people willing to 'serve'. That seems pretty cynical, but it's a dog eat dog world, right? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Apr 15, 1999 at 07:19:05 (EDT)
From: Diz Email: None To: Marshall Subject: Opportunist Premies Message: Hi Marshall and Jim Agree there was a pecking order, arranged on at least a couple of dimensions. Depth of devotion, depth of detachment (which included being able to screw around without getting involved - there were lots of premies, especially men, who were expert in this one), ability to party, amount of service undertaken, closeness to MJ, knowing the right people.... As to motivations, I wonder, Marshall, if you're assuming that people were fully conscious of their motivations. I don't think they were. I know I wasn't. Part of the process of getting out of the cult was becoming more conscious of my motivations - probably I'm still doing that. I'm sure almost all of us told ourselves we were about realising K, and probably were to at least some extent. But most of us probably also had other motivations. To me, this isn't something terrible, it's a reflection of the fact that we were/are human. So is it any big surprise that, locked into MJ's limited world, we looked there for human love, acknowledgement, a place to develop our talents, sex... I think the problem wasn't that we had other motivations, it was that the other motivations were meant to be BAD. If you felt them, you were insincere, unfocussed, unconscious, lacked understanding, etc etc. When what was really happening was that we were a bunch of kids, virtually, with all the drives that young people moving into adulthood naturally have. And, of course, we all know what happens to parts of ourselves that we lock in the basement. They get hungry and mean and don't learn how to do things in a reasonable way, and when they find a crack in the door they come out and behave in a less-than-decent fashion. I think the premies who were less dedicated may well have been as 'sincere', but perhaps also had a more well-developed sense of self-preservation that I had. I jumped in all the way, so far as I was able. And as Jim said, have experience the backlash to a greater extent than would probably have been the case if I'd been 'cool' and kept more of myself back. So far as I'm concerned, my full-on dedication approach makes me no better or worse that a 'fringe' premie. I can see, by the way, that my approach fit with my psychology - again, so it goes. Not sure if any of that makes sense. Diz Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Apr 15, 1999 at 07:43:16 (EDT)
From: Zac Email: None To: Diz Subject: Nice post, Diz Message: Nice post Diz, I especially like the part that explains the existence of the X forum and why it feels good to post the facts as we saw them. 'And, of course, we all know what happens to parts of ourselves that we lock in the basement. They get hungry and mean and don't learn how to do things in a reasonable way, and when they find a crack in the door they come out and behave in a less-than-decent fashion.'-Diz Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 14:46:39 (EDT)
From: Way Email: None To: JW Subject: What did celibacy mean? Message: I don't think Rawat should be given much (if any) credit or blame for the conditions of the ashram - he inherited the system along with his guruness and just went along with the long-established rules of spiritual devotion. Ascribing conscious motives to Maharaji's actions and teachings give him too much credit, in my opinion. He's on a wild ride not of his own making, just like the rest of us. This is not a defence of him, by the way, unless calling him stupidly harmful is a defence against the charge of purposely harmful. The problems with ashrams are self-contained and universal in Eastern and Western traditions, which are very similar at the monastic level. The problems inherent in following a spiritual master are likewise neither original or unique to Rawat, but common and inescapable for all gurus. Ashrams and gurus don't work, and there have been many clues over the years that ex-premies are not the only ones discovering this fact - Maharaji himself is now undoubtedly aware of the situation to some extent or another. I remember one very early ashram meeting in Miami where he made a negative comment about the ashram that floored me at the time. He said something like 'So that's the purpose of the ashram - I was beginning to wonder. ' (I forget what prompted the remark). He states on his website that he hates being a figurehead, and if he weren't so attached to all the perks of gurudom, he probably would be able to be honest with himself and realize that a figurehead is exactly what he is doomed to be as long as he plays that role. Those of us who followed Maharaji and lived in his ashram attempted to attain that very common and very high ideal - pure love of God. We wanted Rawat to be perfect and divine and total love and we wanted to be ourselves in total love. Well, you can't blame a person for trying. But overcoming sex is not the proper means to that ideal. Venus gets very upset when mortals try to ignore her. We are her puppets and she only jerks the strings harder when we resist. If you do succeed in breaking those strings, you will lose all zest for life and diminish God, because sex is a part of life, love, and God. The only noble truth, (if there is one, and there can be only one, not four), is that we are already wrapped in the arms of perfect love, and you can tell Buddha and all rest of those jerks to go to hell, which is where they try to convince us that we currently reside. Let God just be, for God's sake. (My apologies to Jim and other materialists for the bit of satsang). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 15:58:13 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Way Subject: I Disagree Message: I don't think Rawat should be given much (if any) credit or blame for the conditions of the ashram - he inherited the system along with his guruness and just went along with the established rules of spiritual devotion. Ascribing conscious motives to Maharaji's actions and teachings give him too much credit, in my opinion. I'm not suggesting that he set up the system. Certainly he didn't. But I think celibacy requirements are about controlling people whoever set them up. I do, however, think it did become a conscious motive at some point for him. He didn't just GO ALONG with the ashrams, the promoted and encouraged them. He's on a wild ride not of his own making, just like the rest of us. I really disagree with this. No, he didn't set it up, but, as I said above, at some point he was quite aware of what was going on and he perpetuated it. He didn't just 'go along' with the ashram system. He openly encouraged people to join, he scared the shit out of us at ashram meetings about ever leaving. He took zero responsiblity for the negative things that happened to people there, and then he dumped the ashrams with no explanation, after cajoling people to stay much longer than they really wanted to, but did because they believed in him. I think you are making excuses for him that you shouldn't. Those of us who followed Maharaji and lived in his ashram attempted to attain that very common and very high ideal - pure love of God. Not me. My goal was devotion to, surrender to, and service of, Guru Maharaj Ji. Now, I did consider him the incarnation of god, but the ashram had a very concrete goal for me and most of the other ashram premies I knew. And one Maharaji specifically endorsed and encouraged as late at 1982. It was the opportunity to make yourself completely available to serve M with no ties to the world to prevent you from doing so. We wanted Rawat to be perfect and divine and total love and we wanted to be ourselves in total love. It wasn't a question of what I wanted him to be. It was how he portrayed himself and I believed him. He projected himself, portrayed himself, as perfect and divine and some of us believed him. It wasn't just some sort of projection or wishful thinking, at least on my part. But overcoming sex is not the proper means to that ideal. Obviously. But if your lord and master tells you it is, you have faith and do it anyway, even though it doesn't make any sense. Maybe it was just a LILA. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 16:33:37 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: JW Subject: Celibacy Message: I agree with JW's comments. I lived in 2 ashrams. In one, I snuck out to have sex with a premie who didn't live in the ashram. I did this partly in order to rebel against the community director. Also, my pre ashram boyfriend lived with me in the ashram and we occasionally fooled around. These assignations were fun, but being raised Catholic, they brought up intense feelings of guilt and shame at having let down GMJ. I was also briefly involved with a premie in another ashram in a large community 100 miles away. Our little interludes wih each other brought us a personal closeness we both needed, and loads of guilt heaped on top. In the other ashram, no one fooled around --- I think. But people did have constantly changing crushes on each other. We had all mostly been hippies before GMJ and our reactions were natural. The trips that grew up around sex and attraction were not natural though. After I left the ashram, one of my relationships ended when I wanted to do the nasty and my 'more devoted' sweetie wanted to meditate first. He made me feel dirty and devotionless.... He is still w/GMJ today. We knew each other in 1975. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 18:38:22 (EDT)
From: eb Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Celibacy Message: one of my relationships ended when I wanted to do the nasty and my 'more devoted' sweetie wanted to meditate first. He made me feel dirty and devotionless.... He is still w/GMJ today. The exact same thing happened to me, Marianne. I remember feeling really ashamed. Regarding celibacy: I was introduced to the cult by my first husband who was already considered fringey back in '73. He had no plans to become celibate, and I became pregnant soon after I got Knowledge. From time to time I thought I should become celibate, leave my family, and move into the ashram. Never happened. I do recall willingly having sex with at least 2 supposedly celibate ashram premies, and another one I consider rape. In looking back, I'm amazed at the amount of sex I used to have--nowadays (in comparison) it seems I can't get laid. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 19:19:04 (EDT)
From: Way Email: None To: JW Subject: I Disagree Message: Actually, JW, I don't think you and I really disagree here, once I straighten out my earlier language. Yes, celibacy can be used as a means of control by religious authorities, but sex vs. spirituality is a common feature of the human psyche and can be more fully understood in a psychological context, as I'm sure you know. My comments about Rawat's lack of blame I meant to refer only to the concept of celibacy in a monastic environment (which he is neither to blame for or to credit for). However, I do see that my earlier language did seem to suggest that I meant to also exonerate Rawat regarding all the mistakes he made conducting the ashrams. Quite the opposite: I, like you, believe that he made egegious errors and made them precisely for his own benefit at the harmful expense of others. My! this cluncky medium is ripe with the potential for semantic conflict - but I see that it would be lovely to argue more fluidly with you in person some day - maybe?? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Apr 15, 1999 at 02:56:39 (EDT)
From: bb Email: None To: Way Subject: way Message: I understand JW's response, my point is that I agree with you about 'telling those other jerks to go to hell...' and I like your noble truth. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Apr 15, 1999 at 08:00:53 (EDT)
From: Diz Email: None To: JW Subject: What did celibacy mean? Message: Hi Joe, (and Peter) Great post, once again, Joe. Your point about relationships being the problem for maintenance of cult control, rather than sex per se, is I believe a very valid one. Many premies did, and I suspect many still do, limit their involvement with other human beings because they believed their energy and love should be going towards MJ. All the rest is... all the rest, maya, non-core. I've heard MJ laugh about the rabbit-like tendencies of premies: the impression I got was that he was quite happy for people to get rid of those pesky sexual urges on each other, so long as they didn't think that anything genuine might be involved. (Maybe that's a little harsh.) I wonder sometimes if I've absorbed more of this philosophy myself than I care to admit. My relationship history isn't real flash. Some long-term attempts with premies, which suffered from the pressures of putting MJ as first priority, both in terms of time and attention, and somehow at a soul level also. Now, well into my 40s, I sometimes feel I know less about getting close to another human being than the average 25-year-old. Still, I don't think I experienced the same level of sexual hang-ups as Peter describes (hi Peter, great thread, brings up many memories), maybe partly because I read things in a similar way to JW. I assumed everything was fine up to the act itself. I got constant crushes on ashram brothers. Only felt bad when some instructor seemed to notice the intense vibes floating around the room, and then it wasn't guilt, it was embarrassment. Guess I've always seen the desire for sex as a natural part of life, certainly as a natural part of me, and even in the ashram that view didn't change. For the record, Peter, in three years of ashram living I actually broke my celebacy vows (by my definition), once. After a long and frustrating lead-up. In a van (no basements in my ashrams). It was, as you might imagine, a complete disaster, over in seconds flat. I remember coming back in to everyone singing arti and thinking 'Gee, that was hardly worth it, was it?' In reterospect, we were dills. If we were going to break the rules, we should have done it with more finess. Maybe we were somewhat sexually retarded, due to lack of practice. After that, I went back to the vows, which I did take seriously. The brother took another ashram sister off behind a bush in the country somewhere and that was the end of that. Hurt at the time. Quite amusing now. But Jeez, was I horny by the time I got out of the ashram! NOT conducive to considered judgement in starting a relationship. I know many premie couples whose main motivation for getting together was just to let those hormones flow somewhere, as quick as possible. And many didn't seem to have learned about contraception, either. So there was a fine crop of kids. And sequential divorces in later years. Hope all goes well for you both. Love, Diz Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Apr 15, 1999 at 13:42:17 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Diz Subject: What did celibacy mean? Message: Hi Diz, who is Peter? I've heard MJ laugh about the rabbit-like tendencies of premies: the impression I got was that he was quite happy for people to get rid of those pesky sexual urges on each other, so long as they didn't think that anything genuine might be involved. (Maybe that's a little harsh.) I have also heard some pejorative statements he made about the premie 'baby explosion' that was happening in the late 70s and early 80s. He would see the kids bacause thousands would be dragged through the darshan lines by their parents. [Doing security in darshan lines I saw this, and I must say much of it qualified as child abuse, as kids screamed, fought, cried, but were nonetheless forced to go in front of god at the end of a long tunnel. But what was a parent to do? Deny their child the chance of eliminating lifetimes of karma by missing darshan?] And then, of course he made his opinions clear by banning kids from programs entirely. Regarding relationships after the ashram, I think I was lucky that I never had an actual relationship with another premie. I think premies who were in relationships with each other tended to magnify the programming between them and that made it nearly impossible to have a healthy relationship. Plus, relationships are difficult enough, and I think as premies there is a tendency to use the cult as an excuse for failing to take responsbility in the relationship and the cult also provided ammo to fire at the other premie. I saw a lot of that going on. I also didn't jump into a relationship for some years after I left. I knew I wasn't ready. I needed to work on myself first -- try to get rid of the damaging things I had internalized from so many years in the cult. And I knew I had to grow up some. But I will never forget the first sexual encounter I had after leaving the cult. It was with someone I knew I would likely never actually have an ongoing relationship with, but there was so much passionate intimacy, caring, affection and joy. The whole affair lasted about two weeks. I remember after the first time, I went home, sat on my bed and cried (in a good way) -- partly because I was so touched by what had happened, and partly because I felt myself coming back to life after about 10 years, and it made me see how truly dead I had become by accepting Maharaji's destructive teachings and by being in his cult. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Apr 15, 1999 at 16:54:35 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Diz Subject: What did celibacy mean? Message: Great posts, Diz. I had a roommate who was just coming off the ashram experience. She had a different guy every night! She had a lot of catching up to do! She also used to lay in the sofa and suck her thumb. She happened to be gorgeous and I actually think in some ways being in the ashram made it so she could hide from the myraid complications and hassles of being hit on by men constantly. Loved your 'locked in the basement' metaphor about repressed parts of ourselves by the way!! Love Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Apr 16, 1999 at 05:36:23 (EDT)
From: Diz Email: None To: Helen, Joe Subject: What did celibacy mean? Message: Thanks for your responses, Helen and Joe This thread has got me thinking. Helen, I wonder if your friend who just got out of the ashram might have also been using sex as a way to deaden the confusion and pain of having lived a very dependent lifestyle, which was suddenly withdrawn. Yes, I am projecting here. Leaving the cult is a bit like leaving a marriage - you get to see all sorts of things about yourself which maybe you'd rather not see. But at the same time, there's an opportunity to do something about the things in the dark corners. Joe, I find you one impressive human being. Sounds like a very mature attitude, not to rushing into a relationship post-ashram, being clear what you needed for yourself first. Let's just say I could learn something here. I loved your description of your first encounter when you did feel the time was right. I could feel you reliving it a little. Amazing that some of those short-term, very sex-focused relationships can be so healing and contain so much love. Sam Keen has a good chapter on that in Hymns to an Unknown God. (Of course, some of those relationships can be complete bummers, too... but that's not the point here.) Love, Diz Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 17:12:55 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: peter howie Subject: What it REALLY meant! Message: Peter: Attempting to lead a totally unnatural life under totally unnatural conditions in a totally unnatural way! That's the real meaning of M's ashram/premie celibacy (IMHO). In this regard, I agree completely with JW's sentiments stated in his numerous posts on this subject alone (Jim, too BTW). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 20:43:32 (EDT)
From: Zac Email: None To: Mike Subject: The naive ashram premie Message: I was a naive ashram premie at the second Pocano's retreat. The instructors said it was a celibate retreat. No sex for anyone. Well they had specified some tents down in a field were you could go if you wanted to meditate. So one afternoon I headed off with my blanket and barragon to find the meditation tent. I scootch down to open the flap of the first tent I see and I'm 4 inches from a couple who are doing it, he's on top. So the naive ashram premie asks directions in the middle of this to the meditation tent. She gave 'em and I headed off. Sat for about 3 minutes before giving up. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 20:51:23 (EDT)
From: crow Email: None To: peter howie Subject: What did celibacy mean? Message: Your friend reminds me of a pair of macrobiotic (religion) food freaks I lived with for about 5 months. They were always trying to keep me on a basically macro diet and would dangle umboshi plums as delicacies that I never did try because of the smell. Just before I moved out, I discovered that the two of them had a secret habit of eating a pint of ice cream each PER NIGHT. They sheepishly tried to explain it away by saying something about yin and yang. They held out on me about the ice cream so they could maintain the front. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Apr 15, 1999 at 06:01:51 (EDT)
From: Anon Email: None To: peter howie Subject: Sex, Lies and Bromide Message: I was in the ashram in the UK from 1977-1982 (when they closed) and I followed Maharaji's stated rule that relationships were STRICTLY not allowed there. I was happily and normally sexually active from 15 years old (at the end of my public school years) until I received knowledge at 17. I basically aspired from then on to follow Maharaji's instructions to the letter and tried to live the ashram lifestyle increasingly until David Smith and Anne Johnson finally sealed my fate as an official ashramite! I have always been a pretty highly sexed person and I guess that a lot of that energy was diverted towards M. I basically fell for the concept that devotion to M involved sacrifice, as he was wont to impress upon us all. This indeed was a notion that was not entirely new to me since I had a basically Christian upbringing. Maharaji's dreary insistence that the master-devotee relationship should, for the more sincere, single student, preclude other relationships, was impossible not to take seriously. In retrospect I consider that Maharaji's requirement for celibacy left me eventually with some sexual immaturity and regret. It was not a good thing to demand of sophisticated westerners such medieval renunciation. Of course Maharaji himself did not personally suscribe to the prescription that he gaily dispensed to others. I am of no doubt, despite the protestations of currrent premies, that Maharaji owes an apology to those who surrendered so much to be in the ashram. Moreover, to reinforce this point, it is clear that, since M no longer inflicts these demands on his 'students', he has revised his opinion of the usefulness of ashrams in our society. Surely he should therefore publically apologise for putting us through such a crazy institution? My sex life happily resumed in 1982 but I have since frankly been sorry that my youth-hood was so bereft of the Epicurean delights that I had eagerly anticipated would follow, when released into the wider world of Girls, from my all-male boarding school. The fact is, that even my experience of Knowledge/meditation/practice, or whatever you want to call it, was BETTER BEFORE all the nonsense about 'surrender' and 'ashrams' took hold. I personally heard Maharaji scold various ashram premies in no uncertain terms, for contemplating sexual relationships etc. The ashram conditions were very strict and, although as we can now see, many premies could not resist the lure of sex, there were many like myself whose christian upbringing and youthful sincerity predisposed us to taking Maharaji's medicine, (as the Lord) extremely seriously. The responsibility for helping former ashramites come to terms with their lost youth, lies squarely on the shoulders of the physician who originally dispensed the 'Bromide' of ashramic culture. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Apr 15, 1999 at 08:11:21 (EDT)
From: Zac Email: None To: Anon Subject: Sex, Lies and Bromide Message: 'I am of no doubt, despite the protestations of currrent premies, that Maharaji owes an apology to those who surrendered so much to be in the ashram.'- Anon Your kidding me Anon, there are current premies who don't think M owed an apology to former ashramites. I stayed til last year and I seriously took for granted the fact that everyone knew and accepted that Maharji fucked over the ashrams premies, treated them like shit and basically thought they were fools. THE BIGGEST PROBLEM THIS TRIP HAS IS THAT NO MATTER WHAT INJUSTICE OCCURS, NO ONE, BUT NO ONE WILL SAY A FUCKING THING. Of Course I know why freedom of speech ostrazises one from the group. Let's all keep the big secret yea, yea... I'll say one thing to any practicing premies who may be lurking here. There is no fucking way this knowledge is going to spread anywhere unless all M's bullshit is put out in clear view on the table for everyone to inspect aannnd he admits his errors in public and announces to all that despite having a nice experience of knowledge he has no reason to believe he is the one master-savior of the time. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Apr 15, 1999 at 09:19:39 (EDT)
From: Diz Email: None To: Zac Subject: Sex, Lies and Bromide Message: Hey Zac Did the premies around you really think MJ fucked up with the ashrams? I don't think that assessment is universal amongst premies. I remember Mj saying at the time the ashrams broke up that we should be eternally grateful for having had that opportunity, no matter what the costs. The costs, he implied, paled into insignificance next to the great privelege. I think there are many premie in my neck of the woods who still see things that way. Goes for anything else in MJ's world, too: you may get fucked over, but the fact that Mj gave you K and keeps you on track more than makes up for that. If you feel fucked over, that's just because you aren't appreciative, don't understand, or don't practice enough. Having said that, I totally agree with you about the secrecy. THAT's one reason the forum is important, at least for us: it breaks the code of silence. Won't save MJ, won't save the premie world (except in small bits), but it can help to liberate us. I don't agree with every opinion here. I think some of the criticisms of Mj are over the top. Hey, I think that about some of MY criticisms. But until it's out there, I can't begin to sort out the wheat from the chaff (however you spell it). This forum, for all its 'negativity' and range of topics and opinions - in fact BECAUSE of those things - is invaluable in helping me move on! I'm having a forum feast today. Gather you're floating around about now too, Zac. How's life? Thanks for your response to my 'monster in the basement' post. Was I talking about the forum? Guess maybe I was. Love, Diz Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Apr 15, 1999 at 13:51:28 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Diz Subject: Sex, Lies and Bromide Message: Did the premies around you really think MJ fucked up with the ashrams? The premies I have talked to who used to be in the ashram try to avoid this topic like the plague. A couple of them told me that they aren't really sure why Maharaji closed the ashrams, and said there were 'official reasons' and 'unofficial' ones, which they really didn't know much about. There seemed to be an implication that PAMs and others may have presented 'reasons' that they didn't necessarily accept. One said that Maharaji just became 'pragmatic' and that the ashrams got into the way of propogation -- they were unrelatable to people and scared them away from knowledge. When I pointed out that ending the ashrams hadn't really helped much -- that only minuscule numbers of people have received knoweldge in the West in the last 15 years, they agreed, and kind of shrugged their shoulders. Basically, they said the ashrams just didn't work. So, being the pragmatist he is, Maharaji just ended them. But they are very sketchy about it all. They seem to not know for sure. Frankly, I think one of the mechanisms people use to prevent laying any blame or responsiblity on Maharaji is to just keep the whole issue very vague. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Apr 15, 1999 at 17:03:51 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: JW Subject: Sex, Lies and Bromide Message: I agree w/ you that vagueness is part of the conditioning and part of the denial. When you were saying that he suddenly decided to close the ashrams because they got in the way of propogation reminded me of Sir D's saying that M played with us like we were pet mice. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Apr 15, 1999 at 17:26:50 (EDT)
From: D_Thomas Email: None To: Helen Subject: Sex, Lies and Bromide Message: Actually, I sort of cheered inside when I heard that the ashrams were closed. As a fringe premie, the ashram premies seemed to be some sort of an elite organization that was constantly manipulating us, choosing the best services, the best seats at programs, giving satsang while the rest of us were not allowed to speak, having their special 'ashram meetings' with M, which the rest of us were not invited to. I was glad to see the ashrams go by the wayside. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Apr 15, 1999 at 20:54:18 (EDT)
From: Zac Email: None To: Diz Subject: Sex, Lies and Bromide Message: Hi Diz- How am I? Well I feel pretty good. I agree that the forum can be over the top with M but to be honest he plays 'hardball'. So it shouldn't really be a big deal for him personally. One of my problems with M is he plays hardball with people who don't even know there is a game on and he beans 'em. So if he has to take one of my pitches to the crotch so be it. I think I'm more concerned with regaining my personal power and correcting the direction of my life. Is Diz your real name? Kinda cool. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 13:23:53 (EDT)
From: Liz Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Daddy Connection Message: Hi Helen, Daddy Connection? Are we getting into conspiracy here? I got on to Swami Ji's web-site. What a trip - like going back into the seventies. What swami were you associated with? I've heard horror-stories from places like this. The vunerable think they are going to a heaven when they see these lovely photos of friendly looking people. Swami S looks like he's having more fun than M. (Doesn't look like a cardboard cut-out sitting on a stage). I liked the one of him playing with his dinghie! Who the hell is His Coolness Prof. Virgil Klapfaddle?? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 13:45:06 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Liz Subject: Daddy Connection Message: Hi Liz, My swami experience was so traumatizing I don't even want to say his name. He is not a well known swami. I heard through the grapevine that he had sex with one of his devotees which was devastating for his followers, naturally. I don't think all swamis are necessarily bad though. Let's just say the guru trip is NOT what I want or need. I loved what Frank Zappa said in that interview below about how we appraoch a guru with one problem when our problem is something else. You are right that gurus probably make people who are already neurotic MORE neurotic! What happened to me was the guru became sort of a super-ego within me (or parent) judging my every move, that made me nuts. Glad you enjoyed your toast and marmalade. WOuld like to hear more about your work with babies--what a great thing you did by holding them (: Love Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 14:00:15 (EDT)
From: Liz Email: None To: Helen Subject: Daddy Connection Message: Dear Helen, I had the same experience re the supreme judge, inside of me judging every move I made. I wonder if we were more sincere than other premies - I doubt it. I expect everyone has there personal foibles(is that how you spell that? - just getting my mind back after 29 years). I always consider that I had a pretty 'normal' childhood but I was pretty screwed up when I was introduced to the big fat M. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 02:15:23 (EDT)
From: chr Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Peace Bomb Message: I've just re-read the peace bomb satsang. When I first read this circa 72, it was one of the clinchers in my receiving K. Years later I read it again, and it became one of the clinchers in my leaving. I remember feeling so disappointed and disillusioned with M. I guess he might have been sincere at the tender age of 12, when he delivered the P.B. discourse, but there must have come a time when he realised that he wasn't what he claimed and he hadn't achieved what he claimed he would Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 00:47:44 (EDT)
From: JP Email: None To: chr Subject: Peace Bomb Message: I think that all of this has only helped me filter out all of the bullshit in my life, you can learn a lot from a liar.M never got any $$$$ from me,but he did get a lot of my time, but so did a few women that I dont care too much for these days. I look at it like another relationship when its over its over, time to move on . I dont hate the women from my past they were my teachers we are all each others teachers when we hang on to the pain the pain becomes real ,our thoughts create our reality Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 10:34:22 (EDT)
From: Victoria Email: None To: JP Subject: Peace Bomb Message: Our thoughts do not create our reality. This is new age bullshit. If your thoughts are more powerful than mine, could you please think us into a cleaner, safer world? Sincerely, Been-there-done-that Victoria Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 13:32:47 (EDT)
From: JP Email: None To: Victoria Subject: Peace Bomb Message: Geez,Victoria,didnt mean to piss you off,but my thoughts do have alot of impact on my own life .I just dont see the point in rehashing all of the negative shit from the past,we chose to follw M. I cant remember anyone putting a gun to my head telling me I had to follow M, as far new age bullshit,whats the difference between new age old age or current age? What information can you share with me to make me better understand your point of view? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 13:57:25 (EDT)
From: Victoria Email: None To: JP Subject: Pissed Off Bomb Message: JP, Geez,Victoria,didnt mean to piss you off,but my thoughts do have alot of impact on my own life . Not pissed off...sorry...did not mean to convey that. It's true, one's thoughts do impact one's own life. I just dont see the point in rehashing all of the negative shit from the past,we chose to follw M. I cant remember anyone putting a gun to my head telling me I had to follow M, I'm dealing with things now that I never dealt with at the time. It's true that I left M a long time ago, but back then, I didn't have anyone (who truly understood the situation) with whom to work it all out. Just like any good tragic play...this is cleansing and purging. As for the gun...I have heard that POW's have had similar experiences in re mind control. (The berragon is mightier than the sword!) Not really the berragon, but the strict prescription of SS&M and darshan that left us tired and alienated from the rest of the world (berragon just made the metaphor sound better). as far new age bullshit,whats the difference between new age old age or current age? What information can you share with me to make me better understand your point of view? There is a 'new age' section in every book store. Go there and you will see a lot of bullshit. It sounds very nice, but it's basically a waste of time, in my opinion. You don't have to share my opinion, it's okay. Basically, I believe that I, personally, have wasted a lot of time with 'new age.' What's real to me, in terms of living in this world, is actually DOing things to help people, whether it is giving money or food or just babysitting for someone. Saying something to a kid to give them the confidence they need to carry on at school or on the playground. Helping my dad put his socks on. Real stuff, you know. Not just sitting under a blanket or thinking nice happy thoughts. On the other hand, I agree with you, if I spend a lot of time thinking negative things about myself or my situation, I become very depressed and then I'm not much good to anyone. Maybe I misunderstood your post...I thought you were saying that we CREATE our own lives with our THOUGHTS and this is definitely not true. Where I live, the air is very dirty and gangsters practice drive-by shootings. That's the reality ... we didn't think this up ourselves and we cannot think it away. We have to take action. Sincerely, Victoria Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 15:11:22 (EDT)
From: JP Email: None To: Victoria Subject: Pissed Off Bomb Message: I think it is good that expremies can come together on this site,it gives us a chance to gain new perspectives on a part of our lives that only we can understand, we were there, we saw it all. I know about new age stuff,the point that that I was trying to make is that there is truth & deception in everything,new age bullshit & 2000 year old bullshit. Thanks for your response,I enjoyed reading what you had to say. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Apr 16, 1999 at 09:59:21 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Victoria Subject: New age morass Message: Victoria I have to say I agree with you. I have come to the same conclusions myslef. I'm reading this book 'A History of God' and it boggles my mind how much time people have spent yapping about the nature of God etc, is God revelation or blah blah, the trinity, is god a personal God or an impersonal God yak yak yak. I'm not saying it is bad to debate these things or think about or discuss them, but I don't think we can ever know. So far I keep coming back to the idea that some kind of moral imperative (acting morally in the world) has to be part of God or the idea of God is useless (to me anyway). So I really like what you are saying here. The new age stuff is okay if it gets somebody moving and acting in the world but I think if people get lost in it it is just another futile exercise. Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 16:17:33 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: JP Subject: Peace Bomb Message: I cant remember anyone putting a gun to my head telling me I had to follow M Why is it this is the analogy you get over and over when someone wants to excuse Maharaji's behavior? JP: No one, has EVER put a gun to my head. I hope it never happens. But does that mean that I have never been manipulated, used, abused, had my sincerity taken advantage of, come in contact with con men who have tricked me, been taken for a ride, psychologically abused, spiritually ripped off, etc? Of course it doesn't. Just because we were not under the threat of physcial violence or death doesn't mean we were not part of a cult that limited our ability to excercise independent judgment and objective analysis. And are you honestly saying that as premies we just did exactly what we wanted to do with complete free will? Maybe that was true for you, I can't say, but it certainly wasn't true for me. And as to whether you want to 'rehash' any of it -- that's completely up to you. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 22:55:34 (EDT)
From: JP Email: None To: JW Subject: Peace Bomb Message: Putting a gun to ones head is just an old American expression,I do not think we should excuse M,but at the same time I do not think we should dwell upon the negative aspects of it.My analogy was in comparison to past romantic relationships where one felt manipulated & used,& to see it for what it was & move on.Ithink that its great, that we have a forum to challenge each others ideas & opinions, thats a luxury we did not have as premies.Im just throwing stuff out & its fun to get all of this feed back. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Apr 15, 1999 at 13:58:24 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: JP Subject: Peace Bomb Message: Putting a gun to ones head is just an old American expression,I do not think we should excuse M,but at the same time I do not think we should dwell upon the negative aspects of it. I'm glad it wasn't an excuse, it just sounded like one, often used as a way to say that involvement in the cult, and all the unfortunate choices people made in their lives as a result, were just a matter of personal choice, when we know it wasn't. Regarding what you think anyone 'should' do, or not do, as a consequence of finded out he or she has been ripped off by a spiritual fraud, I guess it depends on what you mean by 'dwell' and who you are reffering to by 'we.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 21:33:56 (EDT)
From: Sir David Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com To: Everyone Subject: A good example Message: Talk about hanging himself by his own rope. A premie has been posting silly messages on my Worldwide Linkup and I have been deleting them. You see he hasn't got it into his head that the web site is for people to contact other people. He thinks it's a forum to praise Maharaji on. However, his latest post is a cracker and a clear indication of where premies are at these days so I'll leave it on for a while for people to read. I have a theory. Perhaps the only people who remain followers of Maharaji are these immature and mentally challenged individuals. They do seem to have an amazing lack of understanding about life. And talking about life - and death and atrocities; why not visit The crisis in Kosovo and add your twopennyworth. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 01:18:30 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek Email: None To: Sir David Subject: You're 99.5% right Message: I have a theory. Perhaps the only people who remain followers of Maharaji are these immature and mentally challenged individuals. That is true for 99.5% of the premies. The other .5% are the vultures riding on the guru money gravy train. I suspect that that are not immature nor mentally challenged, but they are ethically challenged. But, then again IMO, that's what it takes to make it big. Actually, I really agree. For many, many years I thoroughly detesed and avoid premie contact and skimmed in once in awhile. Afterall, I'm way too hip for that shit. But, I really didn't strike up too many friendships after the early days of the '70s. A lot of pPremies don't have much immagination. They avoid the mainstream of life and the interesting waterfalls. I remember this guy in Denver talking about mountain climbing and I felt and could detect a feeling in the room that everyone thought that this guy was in his mind. Fuck that kind of group thinking. Do something exciting for god's sake other than washing the walls of the DLM Kittredge Building or something. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 14:02:43 (EDT)
From: Roger $ Drek Email: None To: Roger E. Drek Subject: from BB's Word Machine Message: I took Jim's suggestion and visited Loving Life Forum. All the Premie websites, especially where posting is allowed, show the same repetitive banal verbiage and references to ancient wisdom. And critics are always attacked as being insincere people who never really understood Knowledge nor gave it a fair chance. But, I did give it a chance, plenty of chances. Sure, you go see Maharaji and you get that contact group high and, by His own admission, by the time you reach the parking lot it's gone. You return home to your community and try to retain the spaced out, yet slightly pleasant little head buzz by going to videos and meditating, but everytime it slips away and then you start beating yourself up for not being good enough. No, it's a group high. When I see a really good concert or some other entertainment I'll be affected for days as well. However, the big difference between entertainment and Maharaji is that I'm not usually required to swallow a huge bogus philosophy to enjoy, say, a baseball game. I was at a premie only event a few years ago in Thousand Oaks where Maharaji first put on a 'Where The Money Goes Show' with his graphs and Mac Powerbook by his side. The presentation was thrilling as long as you were completely ignorant of statistics and information presentation. But as soon as you applied any analytical thinking to the presentation doubt would start kicking in. And that's about where it's at. Keep repeating the standard accepted phrases that you hear from Maharaji and other premies. Keep repeating, keep repeating. How can anyone consider propagating This Knowledge to a colleague from work or a friend? No, you can't because they'll instantly recognize that you're completely out of your mind. Who you can you bring to Maharaji's Knowledge? Only those who are already lost and confused. The Last shall come First. Basically, it's a predatory little game. Birds of a feather flock together. Thus said, you get these Premie Websites where nothing is repeatedly said about THAT nothing and everyone is happy. Problems, questions, or doubts - watch two videos, meditate and call me tomorrow. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 20:43:33 (EDT)
From: gerry the terrible Email: None To: all Subject: Next pathetic case Message: Check out this bit of wisdom from a 28 year veteran of the ''knowlege:'' Written by a guy who calls himself ''Angel'' (I don't think he is from a culture where men are called Angelo) Now why would a grown man refer to himself as 'Angel?'' I can understand a nine year girl doing so but not a fifty-something man. A belated happy birthday frederico.I abandoned books once I found Knowledge. To me satsang means company of Truth and the only company I trust is that of my Master who has revealed to me the ultimate Truth.It is with Him that I can learn what I need to know..Thanks anyway.I did look up info on the net before replying.Another Book is another book, is another book.Its best for me to depend entirely on what comes from within me.Any understanding I need my Teacher will give me, I need only the thirst.Like you for twenty eight years,He has never abandoned me. Like I said, pathetic. Sad really. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 20:53:18 (EDT)
From: Prem Pol Pot Rawat Email: None To: gerry the terrible Subject: I never said that! Message: I never told anyone that this is the Knowledge you can't get in college. I've just told my devotees that This Knowledge will bring you That Peace. There's nothing wrong with booklearning as long as you don't think about it. Read between my lips! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 20:58:13 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: gerry the terrible Subject: Next pathetic case Message: I read that, too, and I had to leave the site. That is so sad, 'I abandoned books once I found Knowledge.' Reminds me of the moron on LOTU who says, 'I don't think, I know, because I have Guru Maharaj-ji's Knowledge.' Makes me sad and angry. I'm not going back to CD's love fest site, because those guys are depressingly ignorant. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 23:51:24 (EDT)
From: Selene Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Next pathetic case Message: Don't go back Mickey! I NEVER go to any of those places. Don't know why anyone does. Though I have to admit that bad Gerry did post a zinger here. Lest we forget why we left, read that post. Guess someone has to go there and bring us back this shit. Gerry are you a masochist as well as a sociopath? If so, no problem, I love you more! selene in spikes and a red nighty. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 12:09:06 (EDT)
From: G the T Email: None To: Selene Subject: Not your garden variety... Message: Gerry are you a masochist as well as a sociopath? Why, yes, of course, can't you tell? And a misantrope as well. And-- my fav-- a hebephrenic schizophrenic on my days off. Actually, after fifteen seconds of self-examination, I would say I don't really qualify as a sociopath, as they at least wear a ''mask'' of sanity. Mine blew away on a cold, wet night in Pittsburg, after Arti was finished and the blankets and baragons were put away for the evening... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 18:11:47 (EDT)
From: Selene Email: None To: G the T Subject: Not your garden variety... Message: oooo --- Now THIS is interesting. Please can we start a new one? On MY server goddammit! No red nighty........ call it G the T's Wild Years or whatever ============================================= Pittsburg was a tough community for propagation. Steel miners, angry that the industry was folding. Angry in general. Old country mean tough people. We had tried to leaflet. On more than one occasion we had gotten at least verbally assaulted. G the T was feeling the impact. Wanting to serve his Lord but wanting to just have a life and relieve the stress. One night, after arti, after everyone had fallen asleep meditating he decided enough was enough. One of the sisters in the house, Selena, had been blatantly flirting with him. He wanted to go into her room, but she shared it with 4 other sisters. He decided, fuck it. Time to see what Philadelphia is like. He went into his room, started packing(quiety so as not to wake the other 7 brothers). He started out. Selena was at the door. ========================= ok it's a start. I am at word dammit and it's reception time for goodbye to our VP. Am I there? No. I am here writing this silly stuff. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 19:01:42 (EDT)
From: Ophelia Email: None To: Selene Subject: G the T's Wild Years Message: Her sheer red nighty gently caressing her ample breasts; her breath coming faster now, Selene edged closer to G to inhale his presence... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 19:09:55 (EDT)
From: Selene Email: None To: Ophelia Subject: G the T's Wild Years Message: How about a black lace nitie? and I want to recruit Denise!!! come on Denise. You want to write, I know it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Apr 15, 1999 at 13:38:51 (EDT)
From: Selene Email: None To: Ophelia Subject: our writing - Chronicles etc.. Message: You know, I don't think CORN is working now, for me. I would love to be able to find the last stuff, where I find Ben and Cindy and do my 'Happiness is a Warm Gun' thing and you rescue me and we go off to CA. It would be a great conclusion - we could put it on Roger's page. At which point, I need to move on. I'd love to do CA and the 80's, next decade thing. Not sure how much it would be about M though, maybe the gradual growing away, while still sitting on the fence. A more pesonal story, not necessarily a collaborative except of course I'd love to do it with you of course. What do you say? hey saw your Cancun msg. you tease!! Can't we just do it in SD? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 21:07:10 (EDT)
From: crow Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Next pathetic case Message: That would be Jake Ratner. Posting as steven and I think angel also. He lived in a house I was in on the island of RIvl Alto in miami beach. He was staunch when he gave satsang. There were 3 heavies in that house. we had two house meetings. At both of them those 3 guys spoke (they were not in charge by the way) and there were no more house meetings that any of the other guys would go to from then on. Please e-mail your latest, MIckey! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 22:51:21 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: crow Subject: Next pathetic case Message: Please e-mail your latest, MIckey! I just sent you three! Have fun. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 14:32:26 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Premie music biz EverSound Message: Ok, so you've broken away from the Maharaji's cult, but you miss that great hypnotic music. Fear not you can get it here at EverSound which is based in the Thousand Oaks, CA area. Scientific studies show that this music is great for your houseplants. Don't delay, order today. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 14:55:59 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Roger E. Drek Subject: Ron Clearfield??? Message: Is this the same Ron that came on and visited our dear forum a few months back? If so, I don't think he's going to 'shake our world' with a cello (I do like cellos, but I'm weird like that)... he he he! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 15:13:31 (EDT)
From: ex-mug Email: None To: Roger E. Drek Subject: but Mozart is better (nt) Message: nt Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 19:38:30 (EDT)
From: Premmey Email: None To: Roger E. Drek Subject: John Adorney Message: John Adorney is the only artist listed who is definitely a premie. Some of the others are definitely NOT premies, and a few it's hard to tell If you read Adorney's bio, he's got some nonsense satsang in there about connecting with 'that place inside', but isn't it interesting how he credits the Beatles, etc., for inspiring him, and he does not even once mention of his master, whom he follows to this day, as having any influence on his life or his music, whatsoever? John Adorney wasted a number of years of his musical career living poor in various ashrams until the early 80s. I guess he doesn't feel at all put out about that as he continues to be a premie and performs music at programs and even puts out cult music on Visions records. Perhaps M has invested in his career. Who knows? John always was cute, though and still is, sort of. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 19:59:34 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Premmey Subject: John Adorney Message: Premmey: You bring up a good point: 'he does not even once mention of his master...' Instead claiming that the Beatles were his inspiration (probably not really far from the truth, IMHO). When most of us were premies, we shouted it on the streets. NOW, they seem to be embarrassed....Why? If he isn't everything that we say here, if he isn't a liar, if he isn't a fraud and (most of all) if he isn't the leader of a CULT, then WHY won't premies cry aloud that their lord is here? Why don't they announce that he is the GIVER of 'that experience?' Why don't they scream that he is the ONLY ONE that can show you real peace? Why don't they proclaim that the LORD RETURNETH? Why???? I'll tell you why.... because he IS what the ex's say he is and the active premies are embarrassed. Premies will say that they are only following M's orders (not propagating, LOUDLY), but that's BULL! If I still thought that he was LOTU, I would be proclaiming it to this very day! Actually, if he had really been LOTU, we all would probably be liberated by now and all of the people would have been fed already and the world would be at peace. A quarter of a century is a long time, ya know? :-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 14:22:55 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek Email: None To: Everyone Subject: 1979 interview Frank Zappa Message: I found the following 1979 interview with Frank Zappa. Interesting as to how appropriate it is for what we are discovering today. Where are ya, Frank? We need ya. House of Drek Weak Links 1979 Relix Interview with Frank Zappa Relix: Ever consider becoming a guru? Zappa: No. Relix: You could have something as legitimate as anything by Maharaji Ji. Zappa: I'd have something more legitimate. I'd have lots of followers and make lots of money and do 'em a lot of good. I could be tax exempt. I could deliver where they don't. You've convinced me; I think I'll do it. Relix: What do you think of someone following Sri Chinmoy? Zappa: Obviously, a person would have a problem that leads him to seek advice of that nature, and he has other problems that lead him to accept that advice and live by it. If his problems go away, then being exposed to this stimulation was the right thing. If they don't go away, then he did the wrong thing and somebody else made a lot of bucks. Who knows? The problem that they try to get rid of is usually not the problem they talk about; it's usually something they won't even admit to themselves. They seek some acceptable physical manifestation of help. Today if you have a problem, it is more acceptable to go to some bogus quack with a robe on and some phony mental paraphernalia, than to say you're going to a psychiatrist or psychologist. At one time it was fashionable to go to a shrink, but who needs a shrink when you can join something exciting where some guy calls you an asshole for a couple hours? Or you can go to one of these expensive camps where you play children's games and touch each other. As far as I'm concerned, it's total nonsense. But if that's the way you want to live your life, go ahead. I'm not here to regulate anyone's behavior. By the same token, I have the right to feel about it the way I do. I find it somewhat humorous but mostly disgusting. Relix: Does the answer come from within? Zappa: What answer? What question? Relix: The answer to how to live your life. Zappa: Sure. Ultimately, it does. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 14:49:35 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Roger E. Drek Subject: 1979 interview Frank Zappa Message: Roger: Another most appropriate quote from this same interview was, '....they can't even talk English anymore. They're swimming around in pools of metaphors and cosmic debris.' A 'perfect' description of shp, if I do say so myself....and I do! :-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 15:48:00 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Roger E. Drek Subject: 1979 interview Frank Zappa Message: That's great--good old Frank--he was a genius. We loved him in high school and went to see his concerts, we even had a club called the 'Bethesda Mothers' and we silkscreened the logo on the backs of our graduation robes. Wish he was still here. I loved what he said about how people go for help to a Guru and what they state is their problem is not their real problem. That is so true. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 18:26:43 (EDT)
From: MARK Email: COSMIC DEBRIS To: Helen Subject: 1979 interview Frank Zappa Message: One of his cuts from the '70's inspired by GMJ, was 'Cosmic Debris' He got that one right,didn't he. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 19:16:32 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: MARK Subject: 1979 interview Frank Zappa Message: That was inspired by GM? That's GREAT! I think he was an independent thinker way ahead of the pack, a whole lot smarter than me that's for sure. I'm nuts about him, I can show you a picture in my high school yearbook of the Bethesda Mothers hanging around their motorcycles. We were just a bunch of dumb teenagers but we sure loved Frank! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 20:35:04 (EDT)
From: Mary M Email: None To: Roger E. Drek Subject: Can you find..... Message: Hey Rog, Can you find the transcript of Merv Griffins interview with M. I believe M was then 15 years old and it was filmed in Boston. That'd be a hoot! Mare Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 00:38:33 (EDT)
From: TJ Email: None To: Mary M Subject: Can you find..... Message: Roge, And while your at it, how about the transcript for the TODAY show? The one where the interviewer announced that he was Bugs Bunny? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 15:01:07 (EDT)
From: Roger Hollywood Drek Email: None To: TJ Subject: Can you find..... Message: Gee, these is a big job. I'll try, but am a bit clueless as to how to proceed. Probably, try to contact Merv Griffin Enterprises. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |