Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 44

From: Mar 30, 1999

To: Apr 19, 1999

Page: 3 Of: 5



George Wilson -:- To all you 'ex-premies' -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 01:51:48 (EDT)
__Roger E. Drek -:- Thank you, George -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 02:26:40 (EDT)
____Roger E. Drek -:- 2 more things -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 02:43:01 (EDT)
__Roger E. Drek -:- One question to you... -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 02:51:37 (EDT)
____Runamok -:- that vulturous ex-guru -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 03:45:52 (EDT)
______Roger E. Drek -:- I've got aways to go -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 03:57:37 (EDT)
________Runamok -:- el rogerino -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 06:13:39 (EDT)
__________Marianne -:- el rogerino -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 12:59:13 (EDT)
____________Rogerino -:- Thanks All -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 13:35:59 (EDT)
______________Liz -:- Thanks All -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 19:30:34 (EDT)
________________Miloochie -:- Thanks All -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 15:34:10 (EDT)
__Mary M -:- To all you 'ex-premies' -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 08:22:33 (EDT)
__nigel -:- George's cult-think... -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 09:01:42 (EDT)
____Mike -:- WELL said, nigel.... -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 10:46:20 (EDT)
______nigel -:- WELL said, nigel.... -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 15:58:46 (EDT)
________Mickey the Pharisee -:- WELL said, nigel.... -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 18:25:24 (EDT)
________Mike -:- You said it! -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 19:01:10 (EDT)
__________Liz -:- You said it! -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 21:33:40 (EDT)
________Minnesota Housewife -:- Trance experiences -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 15:51:13 (EDT)
__________nigel -:- Trance experiences -:- Sun, Apr 11, 1999 at 03:07:49 (EDT)
__Zac -:- The 'white tunnel' experience -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 09:15:58 (EDT)
____Happy -:- A reptile in the white tunnel -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 10:36:44 (EDT)
______Mike -:- A reptile in the white tunnel -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 10:57:52 (EDT)
__JW -:- To George and 'premies' -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 14:01:47 (EDT)
____Mike -:- Why, JW I never knew -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 14:16:09 (EDT)
______Mike -:- OOPS! Jeez -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 14:18:37 (EDT)
________Helen -:- JW gets MAD--love it -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 16:47:39 (EDT)
__________sheindel -:- JW gets MAD--love it -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 21:49:11 (EDT)
____Helen -:- To George and 'premies' -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 16:44:26 (EDT)
__Anne -:- To all you 'ex-premies' -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 16:52:39 (EDT)
____Helen -:- To all you 'ex-premies' -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 16:56:05 (EDT)
______Anne -:- To Helen 'ex-premies' -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 17:19:43 (EDT)
________Helen -:- To Anne 'ex-premies' -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 17:40:15 (EDT)
__________Mary M -:- 'ex-premies' -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 21:36:43 (EDT)
__sheindel -:- To all you 'ex-premies' -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 21:39:06 (EDT)
____Liz -:- To all you 'ex-premies' -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 21:54:59 (EDT)
______sheindel -:- To all you 'ex-premies' -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 22:00:45 (EDT)
__sorry G.W. this is not a -:- case of sour grapes.try again. -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 00:26:31 (EDT)

JHB -:- Premalata receiving K -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 19:42:52 (EDT)

jp -:- whowasthatlittleindianfeller? -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 18:44:52 (EDT)
__Robyn -:- whowasthatlittleindianfeller? -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 18:50:18 (EDT)
____Helen -:- whowasthatlittleindianfeller? -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 18:58:26 (EDT)
______jp -:- whowasthatlittleindianfeller? -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 21:59:01 (EDT)
________Helen -:- whowasthatlittleindianfeller? -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 23:21:44 (EDT)
__________jp -:- whowasthatlittleindianfeller? -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 01:10:41 (EDT)
__Mary M -:- whowasthatlittleindianfeller? -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 19:01:56 (EDT)
____JP -:- whowasthatlittleindianfeller? -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 01:24:18 (EDT)

Mary M -:- PREM MARK Tidbits -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 08:50:13 (EDT)
__Doc Shredder -:- PREM MARK Tidbits -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 13:39:59 (EDT)
____JW -:- PREM MARK Tidbits -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 14:18:13 (EDT)
______Doc Shredder -:- PREM MARK Tidbits -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 15:38:19 (EDT)
________JW -:- PREM MARK Tidbits -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 16:41:34 (EDT)
__________Zac -:- Older bald guy -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 21:20:20 (EDT)
____________Mickey the Pharisee -:- Older bald guy -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 02:02:43 (EDT)
______________Ben Lurking -:- Older bald guy -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 19:00:59 (EDT)
____________JW -:- Jim M sounds right -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 12:26:41 (EDT)
______________JW -:- Jim Emerson -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 14:52:16 (EDT)
________________The Hypnotist -:- JW, I can help you -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 16:09:35 (EDT)
__________________JW -:- Who Was the Big Wig? -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 23:43:35 (EDT)
________________Zac -:- Jim Emerson -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 18:39:02 (EDT)
________________DV -:- Jim Emerson -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 21:37:34 (EDT)
__________________bb -:- Jim Emerson and DECA -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 00:36:38 (EDT)
____________________dv -:- Lem Lasher and DECA -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 13:21:09 (EDT)
______________________JW -:- Lem Lasher and DECA -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 13:45:05 (EDT)
________________________dv -:- Lem Lasher and DECA -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 16:11:38 (EDT)
__________________________Roger E. Drek -:- Lem Lasher now? -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 18:18:29 (EDT)
______________________John -:- Hey dv -:- Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 10:56:33 (EDT)
________________________dv -:- Hey dv -:- Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 22:30:14 (EDT)
________________Roger E. Drek -:- Jim Emerson & Chgo Rainbow -:- Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 15:21:38 (EDT)
__________david m -:- PREM MARK Tidbits -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 21:45:12 (EDT)
__________Peter -:- PREM MARK Tidbits -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 21:55:31 (EDT)
____________JW -:- PREM MARK Tidbits -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 15:08:04 (EDT)
______________Travelling Salesman -:- And JW had his own Dodge Dart -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 16:00:42 (EDT)
________________JW -:- I Did Not -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 18:48:35 (EDT)
______Mary M -:- PREM MARK Tidbits -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 16:18:08 (EDT)
________street rat -:- PREM MARK Tidbits -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 16:55:34 (EDT)
__________Mary M -:- PREM MARK Tidbits -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 17:43:33 (EDT)
____________JW -:- Robert Jacobs -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 18:50:41 (EDT)
______________Mary M -:- Robert Jacobs -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 19:09:39 (EDT)
________________tu tu -:- Robert Jacobs -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 08:51:41 (EDT)
__________________bb -:- Hass -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 00:51:12 (EDT)
______________Runamok -:- Robert Jacobs -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 00:11:50 (EDT)
______________Simon Wiesenthal -:- Scouring the Web for Rats -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 03:50:05 (EDT)
________________Mary M -:- To Mr. Jacobs -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 08:32:43 (EDT)
________________JW -:- Scouring the Web for Rats -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 11:04:08 (EDT)
__________________Simon Wiesenthal -:- It's too coincidental -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 14:10:38 (EDT)
____________________JW -:- It's too coincidental -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 14:57:17 (EDT)
______________________Simon Wiesenthal -:- Too late for that! -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 15:55:12 (EDT)
________________________Miloochie -:- Too late for that! -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 20:17:27 (EDT)
__________________________Robert Vesco -:- non-profit to profit -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 21:12:51 (EDT)
__________________________JW -:- I'm Not So Sure -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 23:22:01 (EDT)
____________________Marianne -:- Maybe not -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 20:10:48 (EDT)
____________dv -:- PREM MARK Tidbits -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 21:31:00 (EDT)
______________John -:- PREM MARK Tidbits -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 21:48:30 (EDT)
________________Travelling Salesman -:- Seattle Rainbow IS -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 22:17:11 (EDT)
________JW -:- PREM MARK Tidbits -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 17:15:00 (EDT)
__________Mary M -:- PREM MARK Tidbits -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 17:39:02 (EDT)
__Street Premie -:- PREM MARK Tidbits -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 14:26:52 (EDT)
____blvd. premie -:- PREM MARK Tidbits -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 16:15:12 (EDT)
______Street Premie -:- DelTek -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 16:43:17 (EDT)
________Blvd. x -:- rawat is a distributor for NSA -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 16:51:15 (EDT)
__________dv -:- Prentice! You sonafabitch! -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 21:52:24 (EDT)
________Marianne -:- Investigations -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 16:52:54 (EDT)
__________david m -:- Investigations -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 21:48:04 (EDT)
__________JW -:- Investigations -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 22:54:02 (EDT)
____________Marianne -:- Investigations -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 00:26:38 (EDT)
______________Mary M -:- Investigations -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 08:30:02 (EDT)
________________JW -:- This Is Major -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 11:08:28 (EDT)
__________________Mary M -:- Jacobs - Trustee of Onae Trust -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 12:06:58 (EDT)
____________________JW -:- To Mary -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 12:55:59 (EDT)
______________________Mary M -:- To Mary -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 14:18:52 (EDT)
__________________Marianne -:- This Is Major -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 12:42:17 (EDT)
____________________JW -:- This Is Major -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 12:47:19 (EDT)
______________________Marianne -:- This Is Major -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 13:03:47 (EDT)
________________________JW -:- Isn't it Weird? -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 14:55:40 (EDT)
__________________________Roger E. Drek -:- The Bill Clinton Connection -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 15:51:39 (EDT)
____________________________JW -:- Chairmen -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 16:08:37 (EDT)
______________________________Mary M -:- Chairmen Clarification -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 20:16:33 (EDT)
____________________________Marianne -:- The Bill Clinton Connection -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 17:19:41 (EDT)
______________________________JW -:- Tofu Chicken Only -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 23:19:11 (EDT)
________Mary M -:- DelTek -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 17:40:32 (EDT)
____John -:- gossip -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 18:07:46 (EDT)
______Street Premie -:- gossip -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 18:31:10 (EDT)
____dv -:- PREM MARK Tidbits -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 21:48:51 (EDT)
______sp -:- PREM MARK Tidbits -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 07:08:48 (EDT)
________Mary M -:- DelTeK Tidbits -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 08:37:00 (EDT)
__________JW -:- DelTeK Tidbits -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 16:24:40 (EDT)
__Mary M -:- Prouty/Murphy/Emerson -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 02:02:52 (EDT)
____JW -:- Prouty/Murphy/Emerson -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 11:08:49 (EDT)
______dv -:- Prouty/Murphy/Emerson -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 13:27:46 (EDT)
________JW -:- Tina Murphy -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 13:49:20 (EDT)
__________dv -:- Tina Murphy -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 16:14:46 (EDT)
____________JW -:- Tina Murphy -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 17:55:41 (EDT)
______________dv -:- Tina Murphy -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 23:38:45 (EDT)
______Roger E. Drek -:- United Pathways - newage? -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 14:00:03 (EDT)
________Roger E. Drek -:- Global Vision Network -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 14:22:16 (EDT)
__________JW -:- Hey, Roger -:- Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 13:14:59 (EDT)
____________Roger E. Drek -:- Global Vision newage BS -:- Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 14:12:27 (EDT)
____bb -:- outing the Prouty -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 11:12:44 (EDT)
______JW -:- outing the Prouty -:- Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 12:37:12 (EDT)

Jim -:- Chicken!! -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 23:28:15 (EDT)
__Diz -:- taking him too literally -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 03:51:25 (EDT)
____Jerry -:- taking him too literally -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 10:16:35 (EDT)
______Robyn -:- taking him too literally -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 12:06:05 (EDT)
________Jerry -:- Dear Dr. Robyn -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 19:01:32 (EDT)
__________Robyn -:- Dear Dr. Robyn -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 21:28:41 (EDT)
______Helen -:- taking him too literally -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 17:26:00 (EDT)
________Jerry -:- Tapes -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 19:12:00 (EDT)
__________Helen -:- Tapes -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 19:20:21 (EDT)
____________Robyn -:- Tapes -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 21:33:17 (EDT)
______________Helen -:- Tapes & visits (ot) -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 21:41:36 (EDT)
________________Robyn -:- Tapes & visits (ot) -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 21:55:34 (EDT)
____________Jerry -:- Tapes -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 22:17:11 (EDT)
______________Helen -:- Tapes -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 23:36:31 (EDT)
______Mike -:- Hey Jerry -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 18:55:27 (EDT)
__ex-mug -:- Chicken!! -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 05:36:08 (EDT)
__nigel -:- Divide 6000 by Saturday -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 10:36:56 (EDT)
____John -:- my sentiments exactly! -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 13:36:03 (EDT)
______crow noises -:- John Cainer the liar -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 16:45:36 (EDT)
______Helen -:- my sentiments exactly! -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 17:16:41 (EDT)
________Victoria -:- my sentiments exactly! -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 17:28:14 (EDT)
__________Helen -:- my sentiments exactly! -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 17:33:46 (EDT)
__________david m -:- my sentiments exactly! -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 21:53:45 (EDT)
____________Victoria -:- my sentiments exactly! -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 23:37:57 (EDT)
________Liz -:- my sentiments exactly! -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 21:48:19 (EDT)


Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 01:51:48 (EDT)
From: George Wilson
Email: dayowl@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: To all you 'ex-premies'
Message:
I just recently found this site (and others like it).

I'm a premie from the 70's. I've been reading e-mails about some people's understanding about knowledge. Some smugly characterize it as 'imagination', others talk about how the techniques aren't secret after all, that they can be found many places.

I think that maybe some are confusing the techniques with the knowledge. The techniques are just that, techniques!

I know how tough it can be to believe in the grace of Maharaji, much less how his grace could have ever had anything to do with the four techniques. After all, all you need are the techniques, right? Right???!

Well, I had many real experiences with Maharaji, including the tunnel of light (which I never knew about) that spontaneously appeared around Guru Puja. I was just sitting in my front room when it came, bright and clear with a sort of 'white noise' sound, and with his face clearly at the other end just laughing like crazy.

It's easy to get really intellectual about knowledge. And if you're in communication with a group of like-minded intellectuals you're going to come to the same intellectual conclusions that they will.

The knowledge is NOT the techniques! I know that you will say that you had committed yourself to knowledge, but if you're really truthful with yourself you will admit that you always had one foot out the door, in case it wasn't real.

I don't care one bit about his lifestyle (nor about yours). I don't care if he should like to shoot bats against the wall with a slingshot. He opened a door for me that I happily walked through. Why? Because I had total faith in him. I have seen and learned things that I never would have seen and learned otherwise. If you who are knocking knowledge didn't have the experiences that would let you understand the truth of what he gave (yes, GAVE!) you, don't blame him. Don't you remember that he told you that you yourself stop yourself?

Maya is more than physical existence. It's also the intellectual crap that keeps you imprisoned. You think you're free, but you're not. You think you have it all figured out, but you're not even close. And you think that you know how a 'true guru' should be and act, but you don't have a clue.

No wonder he split.

Why don't you admit that you never really got there? That would be the beginning of wisdom. Then do the techniques again, and find that thing that eluded you while you were dancing on the periphery of the circle of life. It's there.

George Wilson
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 02:26:40 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: George Wilson
Subject: Thank you, George
Message:
George,

Your post was certainly one of the better written posts that I've read from premies.

However, it is what you call satsang. Satsang with the assumption that no one here sincerely tried to practice the Knowledge that was given by Maharaji. Basically, I think that many, many of us really, really tried and didn't get much out of it. There is such a come on with his carrot on the stick promise, his goading that it will get better and better and better. But, it never really did for me. I just got more and more confused.

Just a quick question on the giving of those techniques. Why has Technique #1 (the Light) changed from a hard and painful pressing by the fingers on the eyeballs? Was I given the wrong technique so many years ago?

Forget his lifestyle because that's just obviously disgusting, but I think the main problem people have with Maharaji is his lack of consistency. His message is always vague and ever changing. It is just one long empty promise and the end result is often total confusion and a complete disintegration of the self. The ultimate price after losing family and friends is losing your self and your self esteem.

Sure, you say you had a white light experience way back then and so did I. I don't know what it was. The mind can play many tricks. Hypnosis and the power of suggestion are quite powerful.

I was fooled once, but not again. I may meditate again after I've blown Maharaji out of my thought process. Meditation can be good, no argument. But again, his philosophy is sick. It has been about a year free for me after twenty five years of that crap and me beating up on myself because I felt that I wasn't doing a good enough job practicing and following Maharaji. So, after a year of freedom I'm just starting to get a sense of my self again and it has been difficult, but I'm really feeling so much better and so much freer.

Thanks, but no thanks. Never again will I listen to Maharaji.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 02:43:01 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: 2 more things
Message:
As I reflect on your post I understand that you may have good intentions. However, there is an element of guilt trip in it and I'm no longer allowing that to be a motivational factor in my life.

Second, I'm posting and reading here as a therapy to rid myself of twenty five years of brainwashed poisoned thinking that was spoon fed to me by Maharaji.

I believe that this site and others might provide premies who are sick and tired of Maharaji's number on their heads to see that there is a way out and there are no consequences. In fact, there is renewal and freedom.

Finally, these sites might also help naive and innocent people avoid the tar pit trap of Maharaji.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 02:51:37 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: George Wilson
Subject: One question to you...
Message:
Have you posted here before?

Are you the Move on and Get a life snipe and run guy?

Of course, not answering this might lead us to believe that you, in fact, are that person.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 03:45:52 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: that vulturous ex-guru
Message:
Never gave me the experiences that I had in meditation.

I have had the most unbelievable meditation experiences and left almost as soon as I attained them. The idea that lies and lack of commitment on the part of the 'Master' are a necessary and important part of our spiritual training (i.e., agya, being dragged on motorcycles, being told he was God, being told by him he would establish peace) IS BULLSHIT.

What happened to you George? Didn't you think Agyaman was going to bring peace on earth one day? We'll just skip that part.

Brought peace to me you say? No I meditated my ass off and got out before he went after any body parts I had left.

You like one way abusive relationships at a distance? Enjoy.

Just stop pretending you're doing anyone a favor by your postivie judgement of facts as you like to pretend they are.

False messiahs laugh at the end of the tunnel that takes them to the bank, bud.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 03:57:37 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: I've got aways to go
Message:
Jeez, Run,

I see where I need to go on this. My bullshit detector just ain't there yet. My first post was civil, second was a little tougher, and the third was highly skeptical. This is probably Mr. Move On, he's used the name George before I think.

And your post is where I ought to be, but ain't there yet.

I mean, I read that shit and I was affected. Seriously, I almost went to my closet to fish out my baragon. Man, I'm still fucked up by this shit.

After a year Satsang/brainrot/brainwash is still not far enough from me yet. Twenty five years of opening my skull and letting that mutha soap it up and brush it raw.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 06:13:39 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: zenoctave@aol.com
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: el rogerino
Message:
You prob have as much time in M as the rest of your life. It's tough.

We all have similiar things (to the guru) in our lives, things that have hung us up for years. It's rare that it's actually a person who deserves so much of the blame. Or at least when someone fucks you over royally, you can't normally get on a website and share about it.

You had years and years with the guru. You can't expect yourself to get your shit together in a year or two as far as getting over it. Unfortunately, it may take our whole lives to do that.

We are here to support each other in this. I'm sure our forum will exist but change considerably and I expect that we, ourselves, will become an organization in some form or another. And that we will meet as a group because we really need to.

I haven't been to a function since at least 85 or maybe earlier. And I really wasn't into it since '81, and I am still dealing with negative aspects of M. But if I had just gotten out it within a year or two, it would hurt a lot lot more.

Anyway, the meditation can be cool, altho I enjoy the sceptical commentary on it. M really is a vulturous greedy monstrosity. I think he's just barely dealing with that he did anything wrong, but I don't think that's a real good excuse.

Any Rog, be cool. Email me some more or something.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 12:59:13 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Roger
Subject: el rogerino
Message:
I think that your posts and your website demonstrate that you are flourishing brilliantly.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 13:35:59 (EDT)
From: Rogerino
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Thanks All
Message:
Thank God you are all here with your brilliant reality check.

Again, this has been a rather illuminating experience in terms of how susceptible I am to premie-think and the cult brainwashing techniques. Yes, I have had Knowledge and have been listening to Maharaji for 25 years which is more than half of my life. And, I can see that it's going to take time to rid myself of that influence.

In particular, I feel that the cult thinking adversely affected me in making me irresponsible and overly passive in believing that the entire worldly experience was bogus and my rewards and solutions would come via Knowledge and Maharaji.

Basically, the cult thinking leads to an external locus of control. Instead of trying to fix myself, fighting for myself and making a life for myself I kept waiting for the Grace to take care of me. Ultimately, nothing ever happened and I became despondent, helpless and hopeless. Ok, George, maybe I misunderstood Maharaji's message - yeah, sure.

People who are considering getting into Knowledge please understand what the gift of Knowledge is. It's a Trojan Horse that will destroy your life. Here I am in my 40s trying to break free and get a life. If there is a devil out to steal your soul it is Maharaji. Don't make that deal with him.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 19:30:34 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Rogerino
Subject: Thanks All
Message:
Dear Rogerino,

Lots of us have been involved & practicing for as long as you. I am feeling better already. I hope the same thing happens to you. It may take a long time to get over or it might not. Keep in touch and all the best to you.
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 15:34:10 (EDT)
From: Miloochie
Email: None
To: Roger
Subject: Thanks All
Message:
Hey Roger,

I just wanted to add a thought. From where I'm sitting, it looked like you were responding to old programming much more than being gullible or naive (bullshit detector not working).

It's Pavlov's dog. George rang the bell and you looked for the food dish..right? We were trained like circus animals.

BTW, I never owned a beragon. That's why I never 'realized' what this George has, I guess. When the bell rings I just get temporarily confused, a little emotional, distracted from my work. :-)

You were still very clear about where you're at in the present and didn't fall for anything that I can see. So you were very civil with him. No crime or fault there. Nothin'. He might have been able to digest what you wrote better because of that mode (and the hundreds who lurk here might also).

I think you are very clear about your past, present, and even future.

The reason I'm contributing this perspective is that I think part of the M past is 'going around in circles.' A key to being on that merry-go-round is the self-deprecation, guilt, beating one's self up, etc. 'Blaming ourselves. 'Being 'responsible' to a point of, at least mild insanity, sometimes a lot more. 'Even as an ex. To me, sorting it out is part of 're-claiming our lives'

My suggestion: Try to curb that stuff. Easy does it. What I mean is that if I try to 'beat myself' into being sharper, more intelligent, etc. I am actually dulling myself, by accident. It's part of the abusive relationship that M encourages so that his suckers can say to themselves, 'Wow, he's right, this mind is really bad stuff...I should meditate, do some service, surrender to him...blah, blah, blah...' Right? It's an old habit, Roger, that's all it is. Nothing more.

It has nothing to do with your capabilities.

I'd drive myself absolutely bonkers, and used to, for years, trying to be so 'on guard,' that I drove myself and everyone around me nuts. What would always follow was beating the shit out of myself for being 'so stupid.' 'I've been taken again.' Then I'd go to the opposite end of the pendulum and become paranoid. A viscious circle. Excuse the mixed metaphors.

I'm going to get 'taken again.' It's going to happen. I'm going to go buy something and find out that I was swindled. OK. No big deal. So what? A little learning experience, adjust to it, and go on without pounding myself into the ground.

Roger, you are very talented. Incredibly talented. I think you are so close to putting it all together and your life, work, everything starting to show real signs of progression (manifesting your own 'grace').

Watch that guilt stuff -- it's SOOOOOO subtle. It's just a bell ringing. It happens to me every day. I'm learning to watch my response to the bell much more than allowing a, 'I guess I better stopped what I'm doing and take a good hard look at myself.' NO. That's part of responding to the bell. That's part of that habit/training.

I've done a shitty job of explaining this and hope you can read between the lines, where necessary.

'Love your writings, humor, serious posts, contributions, your delicious House of Drek.

You don't have to always be in detector mode. The whole process here, or anywhere, will press on. When I get caught in the rear of the pack, I then catch up. No big deal.

I really enjoyed your open honesty in this thread. It's great.

A wild guess (from your postings on this thread): Now close your eyes, 'You are now permissioned, my son. You are now graced. You always have been and always will.' Click those Ruby Slippers and take the world by storm.

One of these days I'll come out of anonymous mode (or will email to a select few). Maybe we can 'do lunch.'

Cheers,

Miloochie

PS 'Was 12 years in LA -- we probably know each other -- my name memory is disasterous, but with help it comes back.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 08:22:33 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: George Wilson
Subject: To all you 'ex-premies'
Message:
Dear George,

I'm glad you enjoyed the 'Tunnel of Light' it's a holographic art work I designed for your enjoyment.

;-)
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 09:01:42 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: George Wilson
Subject: George's cult-think...
Message:
Hello George,

Your post is patronising - and you say some pretty stupid things as well. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and put it down to your cult conditioning and - tentatively - say 'welcome aboard'. I hope you stick around to find out a little more about your Master, and try to understand something of the damage he has done to so many lives.

As to your comments:

I just recently found this site (and others like it). I'm a premie from the 70's. I've been reading e-mails about some people's understanding about knowledge. Some smugly characterize it as 'imagination', others talk about how the techniques aren't secret after all, that they can be found many places.

I think that maybe some are confusing the techniques with the knowledge. The techniques are just that, techniques!

I know how tough it can be to believe in the grace of Maharaji, much less how his grace could have ever had anything to do with the four techniques. After all, all you need are the techniques, right? Right???!


Oh yeah... techniques not the Knowledge. Oops! We seem to have forgotten that one, don't we? But if you are right here, George, consider a couple of questions:

(1) Why does anyone have to use techniques, if Grace is the magic ingredient?
(2) Why do so many other spiritual paths use the techniques and report similar experiences, when they don't have the 'Grace' which apparently makes all the difference? Did you know Prem's brother Satpal has started doing the 'Living Lord' bit in the West? Do you seriously believe the others are mistaken / led astray, and M's is the one True Path, and M the unique bestower of Grace? - that they don't have the same experiences that you do..?

(Hope you didn't find these too intellectual...)

Well, I had many real experiences with Maharaji, including the tunnel of light (which I never knew about) that spontaneously appeared around Guru Puja. I was just sitting in my front room when it came, bright and clear with a sort of 'white noise' sound, and with his face clearly at the other end just laughing like crazy

Remarkable thing is the human brain: for one thing, its capacity to build a cohesive perceptual universe out of a buzzing, blooming chaos of multi-sensory stimuli, or to fill in the gaps in the absence of sensory stimuli. Tunnels of light are more commonplace than you realise. US pilots are involved in experiments using the world's largest centrifuge, to examine the body's reaction to massive G-forces. They get a white light bliss-out every time. The tunnel is a perceptual illusion that occurs when cells in the visual cortex start firing at random. These cells are more densely packed in the centre of the visual field, but more sparse towards the edges. When they start firing at random (as happens during 'near death experiences') people will see a tunnel of white light.

The pilots also experience a profound euphoria as the brain goes into over-production of natural opiates.

It's easy to get really intellectual about knowledge. And if you're in communication with a group of like-minded intellectuals you're going to come to the same intellectual conclusions that they will. The knowledge is NOT the techniques! I know that you will say that you had committed yourself to knowledge, but if you're really truthful with yourself you will admit that you always had one foot out the door, in case it wasn't real.

This was the patronising bit. How much do you know about the people posting here, George? We have many long-term ashramites here, others who have just quit after a quarter of a century of giving Knowledge their best shot. We even have a couple of initiators, for goodness' sake. It also embarrasses me to this day how mind-bogglingly committed I once was. It is VERY arrogant of you pose as somebody who's commitment was genuine, while anybody who has left was never a real devotee. You're so full of spiritual pride, George, it is no wonder you can't think straight.

I don't care one bit about his lifestyle (nor about yours). I don't care if he should like to shoot bats against the wall with a slingshot.

This is a very common premie response. Is there anything you wouldn't forgive Maharaji for? How about knowingly protecting a child abuser (Jagdeo) and allowing him to continue working as an initiator? (There is overwhelming evidence for this, from a variety of sources). How about spiriting Fakiranand out of the USA after he organised a skull-smashing expedition against the man who custard-pied Maharji? I repeat, is there absolutely nothing you would condemn? If this is the case, you have forfeited your morality as well as your brain.

He opened a door for me that I happily walked through. Why? Because I had total faith in him.

Evidently so. Just don't kid yourself that nobody else had total faith.

I have seen and learned things that I never would have seen and learned otherwise.

Oh that's great, George. Give us some examples, please. Just one will do...

If you who are knocking knowledge didn't have the experiences that would let you understand the truth of what he gave (yes, GAVE!) you, don't blame him. Don't you remember that he told you that you yourself stop yourself?

We remember lots of things that Maharaji said. Much of it incredibly stupid or manipulative, in retrospect. A lot of it - like this quote here - designed to off-load any responsibility for any of life's pains onto the shoulders of the devotees. M, meanwhile, takes all the credit when the premies are feeling good and enjoying their lives. It's called a 'win-win situation', George, and all cult leaders engineer them in pretty much the same way.

Maya is more than physical existence... blah blah blah blah blah....yeah, yeah, Kali Yuga...Age of aquarium...flute crown and gopis...gods with elephant trunk faces...cark, barf and park the custard...

Spare us the Vedic doggerel, George. It comes from a prescientific, superstitious age when nobody knew about evolution and people believed a person calling himself a Master could give you a tunnel of light, as if by magic. I mean that dumb...
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 10:46:20 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: WELL said, nigel....
Message:
Nigel: You have to be one of the most eloquent and clear-thinking writers that I've ever had the pleasure to read. Well said, indeed! ;-)
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 15:58:46 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: WELL said, nigel....
Message:
Thanks Mike. (Coming from as effective a communicator as you that's really appreciated.)

And Mike, my friend, don't you think it's totally mind-boggling the ease by which premies (and all cult followers, I suppose) can allow themselves to believe that in a world of 15 billion (?) people, they, and they alone have been fortuante enough to land on the One True Path? - the one where all the Grace is going on...

And what kind of sick cosmic set-up is that supposed to be, if only something like 0.0000000001 per cent of the World's population ever gets to hear the glad tidings?!!!
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 18:25:24 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: WELL said, nigel....
Message:
You are right, it is crazy to think that only 0.0000000001 percent (approx) of the World's population would have the truth, but I think that is what makes it appealing to some. There are always those who want to be in on the big secret that the rest are unable to comprehend. At one time this was attractive to me. This is what made so-called gnosticism attractive in the second and third centuries. The masses (and non-gnostic Xistians) were the 'many' while the gnostics were the 'few.' The few had the real scoop on things. It is spiritual elitism of the worst kind, and it is the danger of almost every spiritual path. Many followers of many religions, faiths, and cults know deep inside that they are the only ones on the true path.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 19:01:10 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: You said it!
Message:
Nigel: I think it's hard for those on the so-called spiritual fast-track (M's Concord?) to accept the simple fact that they are as 'lost' or as 'found' as everyone else. 'No, that homeless guy laying in the gutter is no more spiritually lost than you, dear premies...No need to tsk, tsk, tsk.'

I think that it is quite possible that what we would normally refer to as compassionate behavior goes 'out the window' when you give up your ethics, your mind, your own sense of what is important and, most of all, your own judgement. Spiritual elitism seals the envelope. This, above all else, drove me from M's clutches.... My compassion went away... It just went away and I was lucky enough to notice that it was gone. Fortunately, it comes right back, when you break the bonds to M.... When you REALLY open your mind and look OUTSIDE (that is, look at others), the compassion returns. Hmmmm..... I always thought that 'spiritual' was kinda equivalent to 'compassion.' Well, there I go thinkin' again.....guess I'll go hide under a blanket and squeeze my eyeballs.

Judging from the recent premie visitations, spiritual elitism is the REAL name of their game. The interesting thing is, even when they get 'called' on it, they don't see it (I guess it really is a good envelope sealer, isn't it?). Case in point: Shp.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 21:33:40 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: You said it!
Message:
Dear Mike,

My drip-drip experiences (see Anth's journey)these days are more like the melting away of endless brainwashing over twenty-plus years. I am definately feeling better and I'm grateful to the forum.

I did have a drip-drip experience at one programme when I watched premies lack of compassion when they pushed in front of a premie who walked with a cane to get on the bus AFTER a PROGRAMME where they had seen the Lord and were filled with spiritual bliss.

I was very ashamed of being a premie at that point. I was always aware of the lack of compassion and the elitism. I just had to push it on the back-burner to survive as a premie.

The elitism was getting me so bad that I just wanted to be there in the roped off section in the front of the hall. When I spent a ridiculous sum of money to get to Rome I got my just desserts when my seat was in the back row! I looked down and saw many empty seats in the front and was trying to invent ways to get down there but didn't have the nerve. Pathetic or what?
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 15:51:13 (EDT)
From: Minnesota Housewife
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: Trance experiences
Message:
Nigel, I was wonderin' if you still want stories for that book yer writin' on spiritual or trance-like experiences. Don't ya know, I go into a trance when I watch QVC--it's a shopping channel here in the U.S. in case ya don't have it in England. You bet I just go into a trance especially with the housewares. Before you can say 'Jahn Jahnson's a fat toad' I've bought a Frank Sinatra commemorative doll. Now what would I want with that? I mean his records are fine, but he's a real skinny doll smoking a cigarette with a trench coat thrown over his shoulder. Not at all nice like my Elvis or Marilyn dolls. And the Princess Di doll, well there's something ya would know about, her being England's rose and all.

Well, the other thing I'd like to share is once I did have a very spiritual experience eating this really delicious smoked ham that my sister made. It was so good, honey baked and all, you bet I just went into a trance.

I hope this helps yer book, dearie. You can contact me if you need more info:
MH
P.O box 4783702
Minnehaha Moose River Rapids Falls, MN
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Date: Sun, Apr 11, 1999 at 03:07:49 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Minnesota Housewife
Subject: Trance experiences
Message:
May thanks, Min,

I've already copied these two. They suit the spirit of the book perfectly.

BTW: Minnehaha Moose River Rapids Falls, MN

That cannot be a real address... can it..?

(If you're who I think you are, MH, I have lost your email address along with a few others in a hard drive accident.)
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 09:15:58 (EDT)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: George Wilson
Subject: The 'white tunnel' experience
Message:
'I had many real experiences with Maharaji, including the tunnel of light (which I never knew about) that spontaneously appeared around Guru Puja. I was just sitting in my front room when it came, bright and clear with a sort of 'white noise' sound, nd with his face clearly at the other end just laughing like crazy.'

George buddy, Maharaji has said time and again that experiences like those are 'pure mind'. You are hallucinating. Your mind probably feels you deserve something after all the effort you have put in. If you can be fooled like this what else can you be fooled by?
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 10:36:44 (EDT)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Georg Wilson
Subject: A reptile in the white tunnel
Message:
M is nothing but a snake, like the whole Rawat family. They're all of them only after gold, name and fame.

M has tried to change his 'image' consistently from the 70s to the 90s: From 'Satguru-Greater-Than-God' to plain 'Lord-of-The-Universe' to 'Perfect-Master' to 'Master-of-Perfection' to 'Master'. But there's no true metamorphosis, no caterpillar turning into a butterfly. It is the same old snake, who has just changed his skin, and keeps changing it in order to get away with his fraud. It is still the same reptile in the white tunnel. Snakes are known to be good at hypnotizing their victims.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 10:57:52 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Happy
Subject: A reptile in the white tunnel
Message:
Happy: Please don't malign reptiles by comparing these beautiful creatures to THE 'fraud of the universe.' snicker...snicker :-)

George: Concerning your 'tunnel of light' experience: my questions are these, 'so what?' Did it change your life? Did you merge with it? Are you now liberated? Do you think that gawd is laughing at you at the end of the tunnel? Is the 'tunnel' real? Do you think the tunnel is the place where you entered your body and M opened the 'trap door' so that you could see out? Been there, done that! Are you aware of the simple fact that a number of people on this forum have 'bathed' in that light (e.g. virtually merged with it)? To those people, the tunnel of light was/is nothing but a precursor. Are you aware of the simple fact that even after these 'incredible' experiences, these same people aren't, and never were, 'liberated?' Hmmmmm.....maybe there's no such thing as liberation? Maybe the 'blinding white light brighter than a million suns' is, as nigel so eloquently put it, brain chemistry in action. Whaddaya think, buddy?

Yea! for BRAIN CHEMISTRY.... I really did like it, you know, it was fun and no gawd required!
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 14:01:47 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: George Wilson
Subject: To George and 'premies'
Message:
I just recently found this site (and others like it).

What others? I'd really like to know.

I think that maybe some are confusing the techniques with the knowledge. The techniques are just that, techniques!

Yes, the techniques are just that. But 'knowledge' at least as Maharaji presents it, has changed drastically over the years. In the 70s, you will remember, 'knowledge' was the experience you got when you did satsang, service and meditation. That isn't true anymore -- the only one of those left, really, is meditation, although video events and 'participation' are apparently weak echoes to the other two legs of the three-legged stool.

George, many of us did those things, for many years, and we got the 'experience' such as it was. What we discovered, however, is that the 'experience' was really one of a belief system and 'faith.' It has nothing to do with the practice or Maharaji. We also had a lot of rotten experiences in the premie world, which, of course, Maharaji was NOT responsible for, because he is only responsible for the nice things -- having that mental programming for how to attribute those experiences is what is known as UNDERSTANDING in the premie-cult-world.

Tell us about 'grace' George. I assume you belive that M's 'grace' makes things happen. On what do you base that George, and why is it that Maharaji doesn't talk about his 'Grace' anymore, and hasn't for at least 10 years? And if it's so great, why do 90% of the people who receive knowledge split? If he is a great 'master' he is doing an incredibly lousy job.

The knowledge is NOT the techniques! I know that you will say that you had committed yourself to knowledge, but if you're really truthful with yourself you will admit that you always had one foot out the door, in case it wasn't real.

This is condescending, spiritual ego, delusional bullshit, you premie bastard! What the fuck to you know about any of us? Isn't this really a rationalization to protect your belief system?

I don't care one bit about his lifestyle

Of course not. If you did, you wouldn't be a premie. This head-in-the-sand lack of morals and integrity is the only way you could ever accept someone as despicable and immoral as Maharaji and see him as anything worthy of any respect whatsoever.

Maya is more than physical existence. It's also the intellectual crap that keeps you imprisoned.

Oh spare us the Hindu crap. You have bought into the duality of 'heart v. mind' and 'self v.world' that Maharaji preaches. It's nonsense, but the fear that one will fall into some kind of delusion without knowledge and believing in knowledge is what keeps so many involved in a destructive cult.

But thanks for telling us you have everything figured out. We are duly impressed --- NOT.

George, have you kissed his feet lately?
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 14:16:09 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Why, JW I never knew
Message:
JW: You said, 'This is condescending, spiritual ego, delusional bullshit, you premie bastard!' I was wondering what might draw you out of your shell.....I guess I found out (e.g. one foot out the door)....he he he :-)

Well said, by the way! There were a couple of responses to this nonsense that I really liked. Who does this guy think he is? If he really IS a new premie, he's incredibly...ahem...'advanced' for his 'young' age, don't you think? WOW, he can 'out' our YEARS of individual and collective experience (or lack thereof) by meditating for how long??? Five minutes maybe??? Boy do 'I' feel inadequate!

Conceit, nothing but PURE conceit displayed by another stellar premie!
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 14:18:37 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: OOPS! Jeez
Message:
JW: Sorry, the latter part of my tirade was referencing the 'malaysia' premie in the thread above.... JEEEEEEZ
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 16:47:39 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: JW gets MAD--love it
Message:
Pretty ironic George telling JW he never properly understood knowledge after the years that JW spent in the ashram dedicating his life to M. George didn't know who he was messin' with!!!
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 21:49:11 (EDT)
From: sheindel
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: JW gets MAD--love it
Message:
i want someone to kiss my feet.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 16:44:26 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: To George and 'premies'
Message:
GO JW, OH YEAH, TELL IT, TELL IT!!!
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 16:52:39 (EDT)
From: Anne
Email: None
To: George Wilson
Subject: To all you 'ex-premies'
Message:
Hi George,
Your e-mail saddens me so much as it reminds me of how much I gave up so many years ago. My ability to deny and lie to myself that the whole experience of k and gm was really all there was for me in this life and that if only I could give up my mind, rational thought, my values of what was right or wrong for me, my concepts of maya then I would be at peace, feel love all the time in my heart.
I could deny the pain that went along with the whole trip.

Just meditate.

None of its real anyway, so why worry about my life, emotions, desires, loves, and just focus on gm, the one 'real' thing in this world. I felt so special to have recognized him for what he really was.

How did he get to be so lucky and smart? Get a bunch of people to give up their will and their lives and they will go out and get some more people and watch the donations go up for all the hard work he has to do, carrying all those egos in his back pocket.

As any guru or dictator knows the secret that an individuals' ego is the guru's greatest enemy. Now sell them on the fact that their egos are to be surrendered and yipee a formula for success. Thow in a few stories, kids after all love hearing stories, and relate the stories to something mystical sounding.

From the guru's manual read out the finishing quote as though it was something you just thought up, 'what I am, all I am, is love'.

Good luck George in your quest for enlightenment, you have just taken the first step towards yourself by posting here. It will be scary, very scary to face the person you are in the mirror but I know you are a brave man and can face all the lies you've told yourself one day.
Love Anne
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 16:56:05 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Anne
Subject: To all you 'ex-premies'
Message:
GO ANNE! great post! Encore!
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 17:19:43 (EDT)
From: Anne
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: To Helen 'ex-premies'
Message:
Hi Helen,
Thanks for your response.

It is so difficult for me to read a post like the one from George. There are several practicing premies here in London who I know would just eat that post up, love it and agree with it.

George's post does show me how far we have travelled down the road. I'm so grateful I found the fork in the road years ago. Trust in 'self' can go a long way.

Take care, Anne
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 17:40:15 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Anne
Subject: To Anne 'ex-premies'
Message:
Yes I especially loved your post as a rebuttal to George's because you point out all the things one must give up in order to be a premie: Values, critical thinking, ethics, morals, personal integrity, diminished relationships with other humans, and one's own mind. Noone tells you all that when you are an aspirant. Also I thought your pointing out that one must lie to one's self in order to be a premie was great as well.

Perhaps this is the most destructive thing at all--the lies we told ourselves in order to avoid emotional pain etc. It's interesting how the word 'truth' gets twisted around on the knowledge path. M's truth is the truth that matters, not the truth of one's own gut saying 'something is terribly wrong here'. The mind is incredibly capable of denial and lies--in order to keep a delusion going, especially a delusion one has invested EVERYTHING in. God, that's the other thing that is so insidious--when you invest EVERYTHING into something it is so devastating to lose it. I was a premie for about six years but I was never all that sincere. Still all the hoopla and dog and pony show of M's trip DID damage me. I thought he could show me God--what a joke. I still believe in God though and that's one thing that bastard did NOT take away from me.
I think it is so important to rebut these premie posts, in a rational and truthful way just to put it out there so that others can see it.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 21:36:43 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: Anne & Helen
Subject: 'ex-premies'
Message:
Dear Anne & Helen,

Wonderful! Thank you for the eloquent and succint rebuttals.

Mary M
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 21:39:06 (EDT)
From: sheindel
Email: shakti@itis.com
To: George Wilson
Subject: To all you 'ex-premies'
Message:
this duality is fascinating. what to 'believe' or 'disbelieve'?
perhaps we are all dreaming our own 'reality.'
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 21:54:59 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: sheindel
Subject: To all you 'ex-premies'
Message:
Sheindel,

I don't know about dreaming our own realities but we are definately making our own realities. If premies chose this reality I feel sorry for them. Maharaji & pams are taking them for a ride and playing with their minds. This is a dangerous game they are playing.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 22:00:45 (EDT)
From: sheindel
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: To all you 'ex-premies'
Message:
hi Liz. i 'received Knowledge' in 1972. i guess it's just not that serious to me anymore. i don't want to give prem pal or anyone the power to illusion or dissillusion me anymore.

it was confusing and disturbing for a while. now, i don't need to have a position about him one way or the other. i do find people's sincere beliefs to be extremely powerful and that is still fascinating.
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 00:26:31 (EDT)
From: sorry G.W. this is not a
Email: None
To: George Wilson
Subject: case of sour grapes.try again.
Message:
no text
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Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 19:42:52 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Premalata receiving K
Message:
I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but the thread below about barbie dolls, reminded me that last year, M revealed that Premlata had received K. He said that the father in him didn't want to give her K because she couldn't keep her car clean, but the master in him felt she was ready. He talked about her car quite a bit - apparently, her car was a trashcan. He joked about whoever bought the car requiring nothing else - food, money, everything was in there down the back of the seats.

Does anyone think Premlata didn't know the techniques before?

John.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 18:44:52 (EDT)
From: jp
Email: jlpool&webtv.net
To: Everyone
Subject: whowasthatlittleindianfeller?
Message:
I became a premie in L.A. 8/6/72 it was a very stange time for me, I was basically losing it, meditation gave me great comfort at a time when my own mind was trying to destroy me it empowered me with the ability to heal myself It really hit home with me when GMJ spoke of the evil darkness of the mind, I had first hand kowledge. However, there was a lot of bullshit,& over the years Ifound my self less willng to accept it.I was 18 when I became a premie, that was a long time ago.It has been over 20 years since Ive walked in those shoes, they just got a litte too small. ,/.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 18:50:18 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: jp
Subject: whowasthatlittleindianfeller?
Message:
Dear JP,
Welcome to the forum JP. Glad you didn't try to sqeeze your feet into those shoes. :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 18:58:26 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: jp
Subject: whowasthatlittleindianfeller?
Message:
loved the name of your post, jp. Glad you found the forum, and that you outgrew the teeny weeny knowledge path.
Helen
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Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 21:59:01 (EDT)
From: jp
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: whowasthatlittleindianfeller?
Message:
Thanks,this is such a blast from the past.There is so much I remember, so many people.The late Jeane Dixon had a vision about M,something about leading thousands of his followers up this long road atop a large hill to nowhere, hell,I can do that on my own. .
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Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 23:21:44 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: jp
Subject: whowasthatlittleindianfeller?
Message:
The title of your post sounds like something from South Park. That's pretty funny what Jean Dixon predicted. The road to nowhere--yup, that just about sums it up! Yes it is a blast from the past. Just wait til you really start remembering all those embarrasing memories you thought you had blocked out completely!
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 01:10:41 (EDT)
From: jp
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: whowasthatlittleindianfeller?
Message:
South Park, is that where M travels to empart the sacred K to the starving ethenopiens & airlift a ton of food to Sally Struthers?
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Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 19:01:56 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: jp
Subject: whowasthatlittleindianfeller?
Message:
Welcome JP,

I think that little feller was a cartoon character from the East.

Mary M
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 01:24:18 (EDT)
From: JP
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: whowasthatlittleindianfeller?
Message:
Thank you Mary
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Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 08:50:13 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: PREM MARK Tidbits
Message:
Hi all,

Please ignore my question from a previous post asking for info on Robert A Jacobs. I was able to locate one of his pies.

PREM MARK INFO AKA RAINBOW

(1) CORPORATION ORGANIZATION

Prem Mark, Inc. (the 'Company'), is wholly owned by The Onae Trust (a Qualified Subchapter S Trust). The Company operates as a distributor of health foods and related products.

The Company's fiscal year end is the last Saturday of each calendar year. Fiscal 1994 is fifty-three weeks in duration.

d) Income Taxes

The Company has elected to be taxed under Subchapter S of the Internal Revenue Code. Taxable income is the responsibility of the Company's stockholder. Accordingly, no provision has been made for federal or state income taxes in the accompanying financial statements. Additionally, the book and tax bases of the assets are not substantially different at December 31, 1994.

(7) 401(K) PLAN

Beginning January 1, 1992, the Company adopted a 401(k) retirement and savings plan (the 'Plan'). The Plan is a defined contribution plan covering all employees with over 1,000 hours of annual service with the Company. The Company is not required to contribute to the Plan. In fiscal 1994, the Company expensed an estimated contribution of $57,826. In order to share in the Company's contribution, an employee need not make any cash or deferred contributions.

Prem Mark, Inc.
Donald Delaski, Chairman
8280 Greensboro Drive
McLean, Virginia 22101

Robert A. Jacobs, Chairman
c/o Milbank, Tweed, Hadley & McCloy
1 Chase Manhattan Plaza
New York, New York 10005
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Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 13:39:59 (EDT)
From: Doc Shredder
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: PREM MARK Tidbits
Message:
Hmmmm.

So, Robert A. Jacobs had something to do with Prem Mark Corporation, Amtext, and Michael Dettmers. I wonder who else?

And Rainbow Grocery started as a Non-Profit Corporation administered by DUO changes to a Chapter S Corporation and avoids paying taxes and taxes are paid by the Chapter S owners on their proceeds which are received as distributions. These people didn't miss anything. Wonder who the Chapter S folks were.

Something really stinks here, doesn't it? Seems like an on going pattern of fraud and deceit to me.

Did you hear that? Sounded like a room full of shredders starting up.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 14:18:13 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Doc Shredder
Subject: PREM MARK Tidbits
Message:
I think all this is referring to the 'new' Prem Mark. I think the stores were either closed or sold some years ago, and 'Prem Mark', whatever that is now, is now owned by Mr. Delaski, whoever he is, in Virginia through a corporation. Since Mr. Delaski is the only shareholder, and hence the sole owner of Prem Mark, the corporation doesn't pay taxes, Mr. Delaski just pays them personally, because all profits go to him.

The 401(K) plan was apparently set up for the Prem Mark employees under ERISA.

Mr. Jacobs is apparently with Milbank, Tweed, which is a very large New York law firm. Mr. Jacobs is apparently Mr. Delaski's attorney.

It doesn't sound like this has anything to do with Maharaji, DLM, EV or premies anymore.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 15:38:19 (EDT)
From: Doc Shredder
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: PREM MARK Tidbits
Message:
With all due respect JW, I think you're wrong on this.

Donald Delaski, now identified as a PAM by Street Premie, was the Chairman of the Board of the entity we believe was Prem Mark, Inc. d/b/a Rainbow Natural Foods Distributing at the time it was sold to United Natural Foods in 1995. You are probably correct in assuming that United Natural Foods is most likely not related to Maharaji/EV/DLM.

Sub Chapter S Corporations are allowed to have up to 75 shareholders who receive distributions of profits (and losses to offset income) and they pay personal income tax and the corporation pays no income tax. The IRS allows all profits to 'pass through' all profits to the shareholders personal tax return. Thus, double taxation is avoided.

A question to ask is who where the stockholders of the S Corporation.

Another question to ask is how the original Non-Profit Rainbow Grocery corporation administrated by a board of directors connected to DUO made the transition to an S Corporation.

The stores have closed and might not have been part of Prem Mark, Inc. Prem Mark, Inc. was a wholesale distributor and most likely separate from the retail stores. However, Prem Mark, Inc. was most definitely a spin off of the original Rainbow Grocery.

No matter how well this is cloaked the whole thing began as an outgrowth of the DLM ashram system need to procure food and goods as cheaply as possible. And the fact that Rainbow was supported by slave labor provided by premies and even off the street coop members and the sham use of Independent Contractors to avoid benefits and taxes makes the whole thing stink considering that Maharaji and private persons were enriched.

Sure, things change with time. However, the fact remains that this empire was built on the backs of naive premies doing service for their Lord or so they thought.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 16:41:34 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Doc Shredder
Subject: PREM MARK Tidbits
Message:
According to the corporate documents Mary found, there is only ONE stockholder of Prem Mark and that apparently is Don Delaski, who personally pays income taxes on the profits, if any, of Prem Mark. What he does with that profit after he pays taxes on it there is no way of knowing. If he is a premie, maybe he gives it all to Maharaji, but I don't think there is any way to discover that. But I agree, that business was built on slave labor and it would be great if we could figure out how those businesses moved from cult operations to for-profit businesses which apparently have made certain premies, and Maharaji, rich at the expense of a lot of slave cult members.

Another question to ask is how the original Non-Profit Rainbow Grocery corporation administrated by a board of directors connected to DUO made the transition to an S Corporation

This is a very good question, but, again, I think we have to be careful about what 'Rainbow Groceries' we are talking about. For, example, I know the Rainbow Grocery in San Francisco, which used to be run by premies, has been for many years a 'worker-owned cooperative' and has had nothing to do with DLM or EV for many years, although I think some premies worked there for awhile. It has become a huge store, extremely well run, with the best prices in town. It usually wins the 'best natural foods store' award that the Bay Guardian runs.

And like I said, I don't think the Chicago stores were ever under the DLM umbrella. You may be right that the stores that were never a part of Prem Mark went their own ways, were sold or whatever.

Something else comes to mind. Around 1987, Linda Smith, who is an attorney and was a member of Maharaji's staff -- first at IHQ and then at the Office of Guru Maharaj Ji, told me that she was really disgusted with a lot of things about Maharaji and was leaving the cult. One of things she was digusted with was that there was an attempt by Maharaji to take over all the premie businesses for his own income, I guess because donations and 'gifts' to him just weren't enough. She was quite angry about this. She and I had both been on the Rainbow board of directors in Chicago some years earlier, and I hadn't talked to her for a few years. I had been out of the cult about 3 years or so by that point, and wasn't particularly interested.

[By the way, she also, at that time, told me about Maharji's drinking problems and his numerous adulteries with 'blonde' premie women, which was the first time I heard about that. She was digusted about both of those things too.]

She specifically mentioned the grocery stores, the book buying business, and a premie herb business (Yerba Buena Botanicals) which started in Berkeley and has since, I think, relocated from a location near the Oakland Airport, to Ashland, Oregon. I had been involved in the beginning of that business when I was CC in San Francisco, and I know it's still in business because I see the products in health food stores, but I don't know if it is affiliated with the cult.

Mary, if you can, can you check out Yerba Buena Botanicals? It is probably a California Corporation, but I think it's now located in Ashland, Oregon. I suspect Barbara Casey is one of the officers.

Doe anybody remember the name of the guy who ran the Atlanta Rainbow, and then became a kind of finanical guy for Maharaji? He was older, bald, little guy. Was that Don Delaski?
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Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 21:20:20 (EDT)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Older bald guy
Message:
I believe his name was Jim M (Mischlivec), something like that.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 02:02:43 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: Older bald guy
Message:
Did this Jim M. guy own a huge house on Peachtree Street in Atlanta? It was a Premie house. I stayed there after Hans Jayanti in Toronto in 1974.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 19:00:59 (EDT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Older bald guy
Message:
That was a beautiful (physically speaking) house - I stayed there on the way to Orlando in 1975
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 12:26:41 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: Jim M sounds right
Message:
'Jim M' sounds right. I want to say it was 'Myerson or Merson' or something like that -- this memory isn't what it used to be.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 14:52:16 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Jim Emerson
Message:
THAT is the guy's name!!!! God, this middle-aged memory sometimes hits on it. I think it was that second cup of coffee that did it.

Anyone remember this guy? He was in Atlanta and then part of the national staff, in charge of money, in some way. I remember around the time I left the cult I saw him come to San Francisco and do a presentation asking for MONEY..... But I think he was originally with the Rainbow in Atlanta.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 16:09:35 (EDT)
From: The Hypnotist
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: JW, I can help you
Message:
Excellent! I remember the name, indeed.

As a side note: I'm not sure if it was him or some other PAM, but I was in Portland in the 70s and some big whig was staying at a local big whigs house and I noticed a delivery porno catalog and porno tapes that such a big whig had ordered for his personal entertainment. I thought cool, I guess that it means we can be sinful.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 23:43:35 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: The Hypnotist
Subject: Who Was the Big Wig?
Message:
Was it by any chance Jagdeo or Padarthanand?

HALIP already reported that Padarthanand used to peruse the porno magazines in airports when he waited for planes. And we all know about Jagdeo -- I guess that would be kiddie porn, which is illegal, and I don't think they have catalogues for that!
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 18:39:02 (EDT)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Jim Emerson
Message:
Yes Jim Emersom I knew it had em in it. He loved to play the fiddle. He has to be X by now. Jim you out there?
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 21:37:34 (EDT)
From: DV
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Jim Emerson
Message:
Yeah, he had bucks. I always liked him, he seemed to have a good sense of humor.
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 00:36:38 (EDT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: DV
Subject: Jim Emerson and DECA
Message:
after rawats world tour in the 707, jim hession was out
of a job running deca because jim emerson was brought in
to do the job and hession was out of a job without being told what
to do now. He waited around and finally got a job with IBM.

emerson stopped satsang at the complex and turned out the
night crew and the lights and airconditioning to save
money. More of a money squeeze was put on the deca premies
and payments were stopped to companies.
rawat would make demands to Jim Hession for expenses
and didn't want to be told 'no' (he WAS the lord and all),
so J. H. would cave in of course. Then, Jim emerson
criticised Hession like it was HIS fault that rawat was
draining all the funding from deca for his endless desires.
New living room cabinets, cars, planes, ect.

Jim emerson was running the grocery group before coming to
deca and went back there I presume.
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 13:21:09 (EDT)
From: dv
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: Lem Lasher and DECA
Message:
The last guy to run DECA before it went under was Lem. I remember how stressed out he was, and how he was one step ahead of the slammer. He and his wife moved to Sarasota- I guess they got out ok.
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 13:45:05 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: dv
Subject: Lem Lasher and DECA
Message:
I remember how stressed out he was, and how he was one step ahead of the slammer.

Why was he stressed out and 'one step ahead of the slammer?'

I remember Lem Lasher. But did DECA actually go under? I thought it developed into an airline seat business of some sort.
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 16:11:38 (EDT)
From: dv
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Lem Lasher and DECA
Message:
I'm not sure how DECA was transformed, whether bankruptcy was declared, and then Dettmers Industies bought the bleached bones for cheap or what. Lem was stressed because there was no money. We had big construction type premies pounding on the locked door of the computer room looking for their paychecks. I had also heard from a close confidant to Lem that he was very nervous about some illegal activities- I don't have any details, but suspect it had to do with taxes or workmans comp issues.
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 18:18:29 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: Lem Lasher now?
Message:
I found the following on Lem Lasher and I assuming by the uniqueness of the name that they are one and the same. The link is from an SMU Executive MBA conference held in 1997 in Barcelona, Spain where Lem Lasher was a guest speaker.

Lem Lasher is a Vice President of Computer Sciences Corporation which is the largest supplier of computer contracting services to the U.S. government. I have worked for CSC and have nothing good to say about it in the least and every person I've known that has worked for CSC has said the same thing. Basically, the management is a bunch of goons. I remember the last Christmas party that we were to have was cancelled by us employees because CSC allocated $8.36 for each.

Executive MBA: International Trip

Opening Lecture: Dr. Luis Martin
Hotel Meeting Room
Speaker: Mr. Lem Lasher - Vice President, Computer Sciences Corporation

http://amex.cox.smu.edu/mba/exectrip.html
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Date: Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 10:56:33 (EDT)
From: John
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: Hey dv
Message:
Do you remember a Carol who worked at Protech? She was married, I'm thinking her last name was Lasher? I have always wanted to talk to her about what was going on back then.
When I left, I was too freaked out to want any contact with any premie, which I really regret now because I totally lost touch with almost everyone. But, I guess that's what I needed to do to get out.
It's funny, but I was trying to remember what exactly you were doing. I know you didn't work for Protech. Funny, I don't remember your ever telling me what you did. Even though I think we shared a room for a while.
It was just so fucking weird!
Maybe you were just a guard bored out of your mind most of the time?
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Date: Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 22:30:14 (EDT)
From: dv
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Hey dv
Message:
Yeah, it was veeery boring. I did nothing but guard duty during the Proteck days, although it was around the plane most of the time.
It was tough on you guys because you had to work out in the heat installing alarm systems in hot attics, while us guys got to hang around the plane all day. And of course, we were not allowed to discuss what we were doing. We finally got our own house in Miami Shores.

Karul Lasher was Lems wife. She invited me up to her apartment for lunch one day, and proceeded to come on to me. Alas, I was such a goood duuumb premie!
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Date: Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 15:21:38 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Jim Emerson & Chgo Rainbow
Message:
Ok, I think that there was a Rainbow Grocery operating under another name in Evanston, a suburb of Chicago and it was owned by the Atlanta Rainbow Grocery for some secret reason.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 21:45:12 (EDT)
From: david m
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: PREM MARK Tidbits
Message:
Hey JW ...I do not want to sound stupid but HOW MUCH DO YOU REALLY KNOW..Man iv'e been a lurker for a while now and this is powerfull...Keep it comming... peace dave
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Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 21:55:31 (EDT)
From: Peter
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: PREM MARK Tidbits
Message:
When I was in Seattle I shopped in a store called Rainbow Groceries. Was this one of the premie businesses?

Do you think Linda is still one of M's lawyers/Realtors still after knowing all these stories about blonde premies etc?

J.W. I need to reread your journey. Sounds like you were definately a PAM.

Know any other juicy TRUE stories for us latecomers to the forum??
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 15:08:04 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Peter
Subject: PREM MARK Tidbits
Message:
I'm pretty sure the Seattle Rainbow was a premie business, and from what I have read on the Forum the store is currently owned by a premie -- or someone who used to be a premie.

Linda left the cult at least 10 years ago. She is a terrific person and it was because of her own ethics and morality that she left. I hope she is doing well wherever she is.

I haven't written a journey, but I hope to do so. I think it's just he idea of writing the whole thing down in one place. It's a little bit painful.

I was never a PAM. I was more of a DLM and IHQ bureaucrat for part of my premie career. That's all, really. I really don't know much more than any other premie from the 70s and 80s, who maybe got sucked into the DLM organization for a few years.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 16:00:42 (EDT)
From: Travelling Salesman
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: And JW had his own Dodge Dart
Message:
Indeed, the Seattle Rainbow Grocery is owned by a current premie. I was in Seattle less than a year ago and saw him.

Yes, and I know about JW, too. He had his own powder blue Dodge Dart and would smirk as he drove by premies waiting at bus stops in 10 below zero weather ;) But, we got the last laugh because we disconnected the heater core and JW had to drive around with the window open and scrape off the snow and ice by hand.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 18:48:35 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Travelling Salesman
Subject: I Did Not
Message:
He had his own powder blue Dodge Dart

For the record, I did not have a Blue Dodge Dart, but I rode in a couple of them, and they were SO under-powered that I was terrified of death on several freeway on-ramps.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 16:18:08 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: PREM MARK Tidbits
Message:
Geez Louise JW,

O.K. only for your will I paste two lengthy correlations below.

The first is Prem Mark Public Records from Colorado, please note the name John Bale as an Officer.

The second pasting is Elan Vital Foundation from Florida, please note the name John Bale as an Officer.

Just paste it into your word processor and it tidies up a bit under Courier New font.

**** 1 Prem Mark *****
Corporate Information:
Corporation Name: PREM MARK, INC.
Address Line 1: SAME AS REGISTERED AGENT
Address Line 2:
City:
State:
Zip Code:
Status: DIS*
First Annual Report Date: 04141998
First Annual Report Number: 19981068924
Second Annual Report Date: 04051996
Second Annual Report Number: 19961048278
Third Annual Report Date: 10141994
Third Annual Report Number: 19941114600
Home State: CO
Suspend Date:
Term: PER
Purge Date: 01012000
Agent Resignation Date:
Registered Agent Date: 01021997
Filing Date: 03161978
Registered Agent Name Expiration Date:
Agent's Letter of Resignation Date:
Type: DPC
Registered Agent Name: REINEMER ERIC
Registered Agent's Address Line 1: 56 INVERNESS DR E STE 111
Registered Agent's Address Line 2:
Registered Agent's City: ENGLEWOOD
Registered Agent's State: CO
Registered Agent's Zip Code: 80112
Name's Extended: N

Officer Records:
Code Name Address Line 1 Address Line 2 City State Zip Code Country
PR JACOBS ROBERT A MILBANK,TWEED, HADLEY, MCCOY 1 CHASE MANHATTAN PLAZA NEW YORK NY 10005
VP PASCOTTO ALVARO 1800 AVE OF THE STARS #600 LOS ANGELES CA 90067
SE BALE JOHN EXECUTIVE INTERNATIONAL PO BOX 1437 THOUSAND OAKS CA 91358

Director Records:
Name Address Line 1 Address Line 2 City State Zip Code Country
JACOBS ROBERT A MILBANK,TWEED, HADLEY, MCCOY 1 CHASE MANHATTAN PLAZA NEW YORK NY 10005
PASCOTTO ALVARO 1800 AVE OF THE STARS #600 LOS ANGELES CA 90067
DE LASKI DONALD 605 DEERFIELD POND CT GREAT FALLS VA 22066

Stock Records:
Class 1 Par Value 1 Authorized 1 Issued 1

Class 2 Par Value 2 Authorized 2 Issued 2

Class 3 Par Value 3 Authorized 3 Issued 3

History Records:
Type Activate Date Document Number History Description History Overflow Flag
ARTINC 03161978 19871343362 PREM MARK, INC. N
TRDNAM 05021978 RAINBOW DISTRIBUTING, LTD. N
TRDNAM 05021978 19901024697 RAINBOW NATURAL FOODS DISTRIBUTING, LTD. N
TRDNAM 05021978 19901024697 RAINBOW FOODS DISTRIBUTING, LTD. N
TRDNAM 09281979 RAINBOW GROCERY, LTD. N
AMEND 12291981 459540 DF1 N
AMEND 09151986 688996 DF1 N
MRGDOF 12261986 701734 COMEX CORPORATION (NOT QUAL)(REC`D 12/17/86) N
AMEND 05021988 19881053435 DF1 N
AMEND 09121990 19901086654 DF1 N
REPORT 12141991 CR86 - 09/05/86 - 8634610 N
REPORT 02181992 CR - 03/01/92 - 05/31/92 N
REPORT 06251992 CR - 06/30/92 - SA 08/31/92 N
SUSP 09011992 N
REINS 08311993 19931090028 N
AMEND 09131993 19931097022 DF1 N
REPORT 12131993 CR88 - 05/02/88 - 881054136 N
REPORT 02151994 CR - 03/01/94 - 05/31/94 N
REPORT 06221994 CR - 06/30/94 - SA 08/31/94 N
DISS 09011994 N
AMEND 10141994 19941114600 APPLICATION FOR REINSTATEMENT N
AMEND 10141994 19941114600 APPLICATION FOR REINSTATEMENT N
WDTRNM 07311995 19951096495 RAINBOW DISTRIBUTING, LTD. Y
WDTRNM 07311995 19951096496 RAINBOW GROCERY, LTD. Y
WDTRNM 07311995 19951096497 RAINBOW FOODS DISTRIBUTING, LTD. Y
WDTRNM 07311995 19951096498 RAINBOW NATURAL FOODS DISTRIBUTING, Y
AMEND 07311995 19951096498 ...LTD. Y
REPORT 12131995 CR90 - 09/12/90 - 901086653 N
REPORT 02151996 CR - 03/01/96 - 05/31/96 N
AMEND 04051996 19961048278 DF1 N
AMEND 01021997 19971000394 DF1 N
REPORT 12141997 CR1992 - 08/31/1993 - 19931090028 N
REPORT 02131998 CR - 03/01/1998 - 05/31/1998 N
DISS 12231998 19981227912 N

**** 2 Elan Vital Foundation ****
4/08/99 CORPORATE DETAIL RECORD SCREEN 4:04 PM
NUM: J69298 ST:FL INACTIVE/FL PROFIT FLD: 04/24/1987
LAST: VOLUNTARY DISSOLUTION FLD: 12/12/1997FEI#: 65-0074874
NAME : ELAN VITAL FOUNDATION INC.
PRINCIPAL: PO BOX 547037 CHANGED: 04/21/95
ADDRESS SURFSIDE, FL 33154 US
RA NAME : EXECUCORP, INC. NAME CHG: 04/16/90
RA ADDR : 11900 BISCAYNE BLVD ADDR CHG: 05/08/92
SUITE 200 MIAMI, FL 33181
ANN REP : (1995) BY 04/21/95 (1996) BY 04/22/96 (1997) BY 04/21/97

4/08/99 OFFICER/DIRECTOR DETAIL SCREEN 4:05 PM
CORP NUMBER: J69298 CORP NAME: ELAN VITAL FOUNDATION INC.
TITLE: DPT NAME: BALE, JOHN K
516 N. PENNSFIELD PLACE, SUITE 108
THOUSAND OAKS, CA
TITLE: VP NAME: MARGULIES, ALICIA I.
11900 BISCAYNE BLD #200 MIAMI, FL
TITLE: DS NAME: SMITH, LINDA M
11900 BISCAYNE BLVD. #200 MIAMI, FL
TITLE: D NAME: CIULLO, VIRGILIO J
516 N. PENNSFIELD PLACE, SUITE 108
THOUSAND OAKS, CA
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Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 16:55:34 (EDT)
From: street rat
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: PREM MARK Tidbits
Message:
What is the COMEX corp?
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Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 17:43:33 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: street rat
Subject: PREM MARK Tidbits
Message:
Hey SR,

Commex is a Company with the infamous Chuck Nathan as a VP. Don't know what it's all about... yet ;-)

NUM: S14284 ST:FL ACTIVE/FL PROFIT FLD: 11/26/1990FEI#: 65-0232015
NAME : COMMEX ENTERPRISES INC.
PRINCIPAL: 11900 BISCAYNE BLVD CHANGED: 04/13/98
ADDRESS SUITE 200 MIAMI, FL 33181 US
MAILING : P O BOX 547037 CHANGED: 04/13/98
ADDRESS SURFSIDE, FL 33154 US
RA NAME : PAULA C. BLANCHE NAME CHG: 05/01/96
RA ADDR : 11900 BISCAYNE BLVD ADDR CHG: 05/01/96
SUITE 200 MIAMI, FL 33181 US
ANN REP : (1996) BN 05/01/96 (1997) BN 05/07/97 (1998) BY 04/13/98

4/04/99 OFFICER/DIRECTOR DETAIL SCREEN 9:42 PM
CORP NUMBER: S14284 CORP NAME: COMMEX ENTERPRISES INC.
TITLE: DVP NAME: NATHAN, CHARLES B.
5005 COLLINS AVE #521 MIAMI BEACH, FL
TITLE: D NAME: JACOBS, ROBERT A
1 CHASE MANHATTAN PLAZA NEW YORK, NY
TITLE: P NAME: RILEY, ROBERT A 11900 BISCAYNE STE 200
MIAMI, FLTITLE: T NAME: BLANCHE, PAULA C
11900 BISCAYNE BLVD #200 MIAMI, FL
TITLE: S NAME: MURRAY, LYNWOOD C 7870 NW 62ND ST
MIAMI, FL
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Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 18:50:41 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: Robert Jacobs
Message:
Okay, this guy Robert Jacobs keeps appearing in all the corporations that Mary is finding as chairman or director. This was true of Commex and Prem Mark. He is a lawyer with Milbank, Tweed in New York, and guess what, he is a TAX LAWYER and actually worked for the IRS in the 60s. He's an older guy, about 62 or so. I doubt he is a premie; I bet he was just hired by M to keep all those corporations out of IRS trouble and take care of all the legal niceties. I note that he is currently a visiting professor of law at the University of Miami. Hmmmm. Here is Mr. Jacobs Martindale Hubbell entry:

ROBERT A. JACOBS. Position: Member. Born Waco, Texas, 1937; admitted to bar, 1961, New York. Education: University of Texas (B.B.A., 1957); New York University (LL.B., cum laude, 1960; LL.M. in Taxation, 1963). Adjunct Professor of Law, New York University School of Law, 1976-1985. Visiting Senior Lecturer in Taxation, King Hall, University of California at Davis, 1977. Visiting Professor, University of Miami School of Law, 1999 -- . Assistant Branch Chief, Corporate Tax Branch, Interpretative Division, Office of the Chief Counsel, Internal Revenue Service, 1963-1967. Special Counsel to Treasury Secretary Fowler, 1965-1967.
Member, Advisory Group to Senate Finance Committee Staff on Subchapter C Revision, 1983-1985. Chair, The Tax Club, 1987-1988. Chair, The Tax Forum, 1989 -- . Member, Board of Advisors, New York University/Internal Revenue Service Continuing Professional
Education Program, 1989-1991. Member, Board of Directors, MFY Legal Services, 1991-1997. Member: New York State (Member, Tax Section, Executive Committee, 1980 -- ; Secretary, 1998; 2nd Vice Chair, 1999) and American (Tax Section Chair, Committee on
Corporate Stockholder Relationships, 1983-1985; Member of Council, 1987-1988) Bar Associations; New York County Lawyers Association (Member, Board of Directors, 1990-1993); American Law Institute (Member, Tax Advisory Group to Reporter on Subchapter
C Supplemental Study, 1988); American College of Tax Counsel. Practice Areas: Federal Taxation; State Taxation.
Email: RJacobs@milbank.com
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Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 19:09:39 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Robert Jacobs
Message:
WOW JW ... what a find.

I was starting to discern that M and goons had to have someone who was 'a slick shyster' in the wings for all the shenanigans over the years. I guess it was after he left that the IRS was able to promote a user friendlier image.

Mr Jacobs.... do you think you could ask some of your clients where the jewelry from London went?

Respectfully ;-)
Mary M
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 08:51:41 (EDT)
From: tu tu
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: Robert Jacobs
Message:
Mary M
You probably know all this but there was a siesmic rift in Rainbow Grocery and a guy named Hass Hassan split off and opened a store called the Pearl Street Market in Boulder in the seventys. Street premeis were not allowed in on the causes but it was serious. Hassan didnt have anything to do with the cult afterwards. Pearl Street Market may still be there.
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 00:51:12 (EDT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: tu tu
Subject: Hass
Message:
In about 76, hass and three others were going to but rainbow.
It was for sale. Then, rawat decided that it should be
a dlm 'owned' business and he canceled the sale.
hass was pissed. It was 76, he probaly heard the stories
from Bob Mishler and Lou Shwartz about how rawat was NOT
what he portrayed.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 00:11:50 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Robert Jacobs
Message:
You guys are going pretty fast, information-wise. It's great!

Someone might be able to get a response via email from this guy, although it's hard to say what kind of a touch to use. If you actually want information, as non-confrontational approach as possible might work.

It'd be hard to figure what you might inquire about without letting on your disgust for M.

Also, we know we are monitored and under the circumstances, he might hear about his info being posted soon, but there could be some kind of window for contact with him before he knows.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 03:50:05 (EDT)
From: Simon Wiesenthal
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Scouring the Web for Rats
Message:
Robert A. Jacobs
My reading of the corporation documents says that Bob is a premie.
Home office at Milbank

Possibly on Board of Directors at Gomez House - 1st Jewish residence in U.S.

Conference he spoke at or something

Comex Corporation - a Houston based construction company???
Univ. of Houston System

More to come as time permits
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 08:32:43 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: Simon Wiesenthal
Subject: To Mr. Jacobs
Message:
Dear Mr. Jacobs,

I would think that you of all people would understand an individual's quest for family heirlooms obtained by Maharaji through coercive techniques.

Sincerely,
Mary M
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 11:04:08 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Simon Wiesenthal
Subject: Scouring the Web for Rats
Message:
My reading of the corporation documents says that Bob is a premie.

He might be and he might not be. What in the corporate documents makes you believe that?

It would be difficult to imagine Maharaji would let a non-premie in on this stuff, but, on the other hand, the attorney-client relationship is such that if you paid Mr. Jacobs enough money, I'm sure he would be willing to sit on some boards and give tax advice and keep everything confidential. That's what he is hired to do, and it would be unethical for him to disclose any of the details to anyone.

I know that in my firm, we give a lot of scrutiny to anyone in the firm who wants to sit on the board of any outside corporation or organization, especially if the entity is also a client. All kinds of malpractice issues can result. But Milbank seems to allow Mr. Jacobs to sit on the boards of cult-related entities. I think the key is that there is no LEGAL connection between the corporations and the cult. On paper, everything looks legit.

Is Jacobs on the board of Amtext?
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 14:10:38 (EDT)
From: Simon Wiesenthal
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: It's too coincidental
Message:
Yes, it looks like Jacobs is a director of most of the entities. I find it difficult to believe that he is not a PAM due to the real purpose of the entities.

If these entities are not related to Maharaji and EV then why is he involved in everyone of them? Certainly, he is not the only person in this country capable of providing tax advice. Someone, somewhere is suggesting that this man be involved.

Is it possible that Robert Jacobs is the chairman of Milbank?
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 14:57:17 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Simon Wiesenthal
Subject: It's too coincidental
Message:
Simon:

I think I agree with you. Too much involvement if he isn't also personally committed to Maharaji. But who knows for sure? Should we just e-mail him and ask him?
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 15:55:12 (EDT)
From: Simon Wiesenthal
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Too late for that!
Message:
Probably too late to email him. I'm sure that Hill & Knowlton is on the case now. No doubt the Marble Palace Command Bunker is in a state of frenzy over all of this and they are wondering whether they should tell Maharaji, who is currently on tour.

Ze plot thickens.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 20:17:27 (EDT)
From: Miloochie
Email: None
To: Simon Wiesenthal
Subject: Too late for that!
Message:
I dont' think anyone here should email Jacobs. He likely won't say one word about any of this. Leave him alone, folks. It won't help us right now.

This stuff is hot. Let's keep flushing it out. Great work Mary... others.

What I'd like to know now is what links this person might have with other companies of dubious past (possible money laundering). In New York, and other locales, there are some entities that would likely have so-called 'legitimate businesses' from not so legitimate original sources. 'One just got convicted in NY.

I don't want to mention those names here, that would be stupid. Now, there could be nothing, but it would be terrific to find out if the same assistance is being applied to other businesses with less than savory original backgrounds.

Mary M, or perhaps Marilyn would have some sources to check criminal entities that might be utilizing some of these advisers, etc. It's just a query, nothing else. A long shot (or maybe not so long).

Miloochie

PS An IRS question: What kind of asset value was applied to these businesses when they transferred from non-profit to profit. Where did those assets come from and if hard assests, how were they originally paid for?
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 21:12:51 (EDT)
From: Robert Vesco
Email: None
To: Miloochie
Subject: non-profit to profit
Message:
Indeed, this is a good question.
What kind of deal went down when these entities changed hands? Were they sweetheart deals?
Who received the proceeds?

The Non-Profit classification was a total scam in of itself.

It seems that in a Coop members should be considered owners. And I'd like to believe that duped slaves should be considered as well.

The businesses might have been sold for the sum of current assests including cash, accounts receivable etc., inventory, land and equipment less payables, debts and other obligations. This figure could be quite low considering that Goodwill was not included. Goodwill is an intangible like the name and reputation of the entity. But, in a successful retail operation this is a lot.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 23:22:01 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Miloochie
Subject: I'm Not So Sure
Message:
I dont' think anyone here should email Jacobs. He likely won't say one word about any of this. Leave him alone, folks. It won't help us right now.

It might have just the right 'thorn in the side' effect. He probably won't respond, neither will Dettmers, but that doesn't mean it isn't having a desired effect.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 20:10:48 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Simon Wiesenthal
Subject: Maybe not
Message:
I still think that this atty and such an esteemed firm are likely there to provide a legitimacy that would not otherwise exist. Attys are only as good as the information they are given by their clients. And, this client is a cash cow for them too. So, don't be so hasty. I'm not defending him/them because they're lawyers, just saying that I think there is much more here than meets the eye.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 21:31:00 (EDT)
From: dv
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: PREM MARK Tidbits
Message:
Paula Blanche and Lynnwood Murray both work at Amtext. I called Paula one day when I was in DC to get the local ss phone number, and was admonished to not talk about programs as no one working at the amtext office knew about m and what was going on. One had to be VEEEEERY CAAAAARFUL!
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Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 21:48:30 (EDT)
From: John
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: PREM MARK Tidbits
Message:
'was admonished to not talk about programs'

Am I missing something or is that classic cult behavior?

I remember thinking all the secrecy stuff was kind of cool because it made me feel like I was part of some grand covert operation, but eventually it was just basically insulting to have to play that kind of game.
I remember what a relief it was when I left the cult to not have to hide anything about my life... well except of course my past and the fact that I had lived for years worshipping this strange guy's alleged 'lotus feet'.
:)
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Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 22:17:11 (EDT)
From: Travelling Salesman
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Seattle Rainbow IS
Message:
I travel a lot for business and I've checked out a lot of the old premie haunts.

Seattle Rainbow Grocery is a premie business and they also own the herbal vitamin store a few doors to the south.

The store in Denver has changed it's name to something, but I don't know for sure whether it belongs to premies. I doubt it.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 17:15:00 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: PREM MARK Tidbits
Message:
Mary, thanks for that.

So, it appears that Prem Mark, Inc. is (was) a Colorado Corporation formed in 1978, and good old Alvaro was a VP, Delaski is a director, although I think that other document said he was the stockholder. John Bale is the secretary and Eric Reinemer, who I remember as having been community coordinator for DLM in Los Angeles,is the Colorado registered agent.

The document says the status of the corporation is 'DIS' which in California, means dissolved, and it bacame 'DIS' on 12/31/98, if that is what that means in Colorado. There is an '*' after the DIS, and I don't know what that means. Is there a footnote somewhere?

It looks like all the 'Rainbow' trade names were dropped in 1995.
I think this corporation likely was the Denver Store, which was first Rainbow and then, I think Prem Mark and the distribution business that was started in Denver, but might have expanded accross the country. Does anyone know if the Denver store on Colfax is still there? Is it still called Prem Mark? Maybe it was sold, or maybe it just went out of business.

It also looks like Elan Vital Foundation was formed in 1987 and dissolved in 1997. It's interesting that Linda Smith is listed as a director, and I think she bacame an ex in the late 80s. She was a lawyer with DLM and then OGM for awhile. Also Virgil Ciullo is listed as a director and was another DLM lawyer.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 17:39:02 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: mem_mcgraw@msn.com
To: JW
Subject: PREM MARK Tidbits
Message:
JW,

You're very welcome.

I have a massive document from 1996 when United Natural Food, Inc. first registered with the SEC. It contains the 'History' of Prem Mark D.B.A. as Rainbow Grocery and its subsequent acquisition by UNF. I could zip it and send it to anyone interested.

I'll gladly research any company & officer names. (Nice break from searching for Nellie's watch ;-)

Also, the Florida Web Site for Public Documents is free.

The URL is:
http://ccfcorp.dos.state.fl.us/cgi-bin/corpweb.exe

The other sites require a credit card but they're not too expensive. Let me know if you're interested.

To all who are experiencing a very natural reaction of psychological pain to all this, I wish you healing.

Mary
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Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 14:26:52 (EDT)
From: Street Premie
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: PREM MARK Tidbits
Message:
Yeah, i remember Don Delaski from my years in D.C. He was one of the fortunate ones who had no need to attend satsang/video events-unless one of the big shits was also in town. You could tell he was much respected by rank and file and the LOTU may have stayed with him while in D.C.

Always was secretly jealous of those who understood K so well they had no need to attend the regular community bullshit events.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 16:15:12 (EDT)
From: blvd. premie
Email: None
To: Street Premie
Subject: PREM MARK Tidbits
Message:
The IRS should be informed of the connection and that
there is undoubtably a trail of funds to m from this.

They can add it to thier files for possible connected action
to other investigations.
Perhaps there are similar owners as the book company as
shell part owners and the funds are shunted to rawat.
Perhaps there is illegality that we don't know about but the
IRS might find. Especially if the booksellers investigation
hits the jackpot.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 16:43:17 (EDT)
From: Street Premie
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: DelTek
Message:
DelTek is another company that warrants attention from anyone interested. Probably registered in Va.but possibly Ca.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 16:51:15 (EDT)
From: Blvd. x
Email: None
To: Street Premie
Subject: rawat is a distributor for NSA
Message:
prentice Uchida approached rawat about him signing up as
a distributer of NSA water purifiers so prentice
could have rawat in his up line and build his downline
telling premies that the lord was in thier sales up line.

All thee premies in many US communities were approached
to join as NSA distributers and (no one is supposed to
tell you this so dont tell anyone but the ultimate ruler
is in the upline!)

He is still a distributer!
NSA has a bad track record of investigations for deception
and perhaps those stories are available somewhere.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 21:52:24 (EDT)
From: dv
Email: None
To: Blvd. x
Subject: Prentice! You sonafabitch!
Message:
Where are you now?
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Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 16:52:54 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Street Premie
Subject: Investigations
Message:
Are there active investigations of Maharaji by law enforcement? What is the focus of the investigation(s)? What is the reference to booksellers?
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Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 21:48:04 (EDT)
From: david m
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Investigations
Message:
Hey Marianne..I do believe you hit the tip of the iceberg Peace david m
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Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 22:54:02 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Investigations
Message:
I dont' know about any investigations, except possibly one.

The book buyers is a company called 'Amtext' headquartered in Miami, which organizes buyers accross the country who buy used textbooks from college professors and others and sells them to book wholesalers.

The company is run by premies and, from what we have been told, all the profits of the company go to support Maharaji personally, in the lavish way he lives.

Many of the buyers are premies, and they are really screwed over by the company and the honchos who are also making lots of money, but they get to go to the residence once every couple of years and the former Lord of the Universe thanks them for helping build his $15,000,000 residence in Malibu and keeping him in gold toilets. So, they feel it's worth it, I guess.

All of this is kept secret by the premies who run the company, of course.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 00:26:38 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Investigations
Message:
Being a federal criminal defense attorney, this sounds like a federal mail fraud (mail being used to accomplish the fraud) prosecution --- at the very least -- waiting to happen.It's also sounds like a Ponzi scheme. What kind of a corporate structure do they have? Do they pay taxes? Are you saying that PAM now have their own corporate structure in order to profit from this venture too? If so, it is sickening.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 08:30:02 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Investigations
Message:
Hi Marianne,

I'm pasting this info. Alas, the illustrious Robert Jacobs is one of their officers.

FEI#: 22-2660400
NAME : AMTEXT INC.
PRINCIPAL: 11900 BISCAYNE BLVD., SUITE 200 CHANGED: 04/13/90
ADDRESS MIAMI, FL 33181
RA NAME : BLANCHE, PAULA C NAME CHG: 10/24/95
RA ADDR : 11900 BISCAYNE BLVLD. ADDR CHG: 03/26/92
STE. 200 MIAMI, FL 33181 US
ANN REP : (1996) BY 05/01/96 (1997) BY 05/16/97 (1998) BY 04/03/98

4/04/99 OFFICER/DIRECTOR DETAIL SCREEN 9:39 PM
CORP NUMBER: P08276 CORP NAME: AMTEXT INC.
TITLE: PD NAME: NATHAN, CHARLES B.
5005 COLLINS AVE., #521 MIAMI BEACH, FL
TITLE: S NAME: ALAIMO, SUSAN 11900 BISCAYNE BLVD 200
MIAMI, FL 33181TITLE: T NAME: BLANCHE, PAULA C.
11900 BISCAYNE BLVD #200 MIAMI, FL
TITLE: DAS NAME: JACOBS, ROBERT, A
ONE CHASE MANHATTAN PLZ NEW YORK, NY
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 11:08:28 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: This Is Major
Message:
Jacobs is on the board of Amtext TOOOOOO?????

God, that is really surprising. That company is so tenuous and unethical that he MUST be a premie........

Nim, perhaps you might contact Mr. Jacobs, as a member of the board of directors of Amtext with some of your criticisms of the company.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 12:06:58 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Jacobs - Trustee of Onae Trust
Message:
Hi all,

Isn't this getting interesting? Following is part of DELTEKS proxy statement.

Our Mr Jacobs is listed as the trustee of the elusive Onae Trust. Remember Onae from Prem Mark?

(Don't forget to copy and set to Courier New Font)!

Contrary Mary

DELTEK

VOTING SECURITIES AND PRINCIPAL HOLDERS THEREOF
The following table contains information regarding the beneficial ownership
of the Company's Common Stock by: (i) the Named Executive Officers; (ii) each of
the Company's directors; (iii) all directors and officers as a group; and (iv)
each person known by the Company to own beneficially more than 5% of the
Company's Common Stock, as of April 20, 1997.
BENEFICIAL OWNER SHARES BENEFICIALLY OWNED(1) PERCENT
---------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------- -------
EXECUTIVE OFFICERS AND DIRECTORS:
Kenneth E. deLaski(2).......................... 5,205,000 30.8%
Donald deLaski................................. 4,772,800 28.2
Eric F. Brown(3)............................... 498,000 2.9
Johnny C. Cheng(4)............................. 37,200 *
Dien Hoang Do(5)............................... 35,700 *
Robert E. Gregg................................ -- --
Darrell J. Oyer(6)............................. 1,200 *
Charles W. Stein............................... -- --
All directors, director nominees and executive
officers as a group (11 persons)(7).......... 10,627,600 62.8
OTHER 5% SHAREHOLDERS:
Onae Trust, R.A. Jacobs, Trustee............... 1,115,000 6.6%
Milbank, Tweed, Hadley & McCloy 1 Chase Manhattan Plaza
New York, NY 10005-1413
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 12:55:59 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: To Mary
Message:
Mary, you are coming up with great stuff.

Are you keeping a hard copy of everything you have found? It would be great to see it all in one place.

Can you post what corporate entities you have found information on? I will print off what I can find, but I want to make sure I have everything you located. Thanks for all the good work -- I think we should start referring to you has Officer Jane Tennyson (you know, that police inspector Helen Mirren plays 'Prime Suspect' on PBS. By the way, isn't that a great show?)
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 14:18:52 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: To Mary
Message:
JW,

But of course! Hard copies in several locations.

I'll have to catch that show on PBS.

Unfortunately I acquired these skills by tracking down a pedophile who subsequently pled guilty and was convicted after I was deposed. Not a nice time in my life. I remember a few premies saying it was 'the little girls karmas' that attracted the man.

XO,
Mare
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 12:42:17 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: This Is Major
Message:
I am also surprised Jacobs has this position, but I wonder if he has been placed there to give the company a veneer of legitimacy.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 12:47:19 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: This Is Major
Message:
Good point, Marianne. I mean it is just possible that he was hired to be on these boards and give tax advice and isn't a premie at all. He just might be paid his hourly rate, which must be at least $400 per hour if he's a partner at Milbank, to provide the 'legitimacy.'
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 13:03:47 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: This Is Major
Message:
On the other hand, I don't know what the partners at the esteemed Milbank would think if they knew all of this 'supposing' was brewing around them. those kinds of white shoe firms stay as far away from controversy as possible.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 14:55:40 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Isn't it Weird?
Message:
I can't imagine Milbank being involved in something like this. Why would Jacobs do that -- be on the boards of organizations that may have gotten their start through the use of slave labor and are, at least in the case of Amtext, supporting Maharaji's lifestyle?
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 15:51:39 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: The Bill Clinton Connection
Message:
This is interesting, but may not be valid. I've searched Milbank and have determined that Robert Jacbos has not been chairman of Milbank as Mel M. Immergut was elected as Chairman of the firm effective June 12, 1996 succeeding Francis D. Logan who retired.

From one of the Rainbow documents is this:

AS TO SELLER: Prem Mark, Inc.
Donald Delaski, Chairman
8280 Greensboro Drive
McLean, Virginia 22101

COPY TO:Robert A. Jacobs, Chairman
c/o Milbank, Tweed, Hadley & McCloy
1 Chase Manhattan Plaza
New York, New York 10005

Seems to me that both men are listed as Chairman of their respective corporate entities. What does this say?

But, here's what I got from Milbank:

New York, NY -- Milbank, Tweed, Hadley & McCloy announced the election of Mel M. Immergut as Chairman of the firm effective June 12, 1996. He succeeds Francis D. Logan who recently retired. In addition, the firm elected partners Trayton M. Davis and Frank C. Puleo to the Executive Committee.

CHAIRMAN:

MEL M. IMMERGUT has been a partner in the firm's Corporate and Banking Department since 1980. His practice area focuses on a wide variety of corporate transactional work, including private placements, M & A transactions, financing transactions, leveraged leasing and real estate finance. Mr. Immergut's clients include Tyson Foods, Mobil Corporation, Teachers Insurance and Annuity Association, Long Island Savings Bank and Long-Term Capital Management.

This is bad! We'd better stop now or get Oliver Stone to help us because if Tyson Foods is part of this deal then it goes all the way to Bill Clinton.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 16:08:37 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: Chairmen
Message:
I think those corporate documents say that Jacobs is Chairman of Prem Mark, Inc., not of Milbank. But it is weird that Prem Mark is listed as having two chairmen.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 20:16:33 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Chairmen Clarification
Message:
JW,

The document was in the history section of the SEC document pertaining to the purchase of Prem Mark. It was first sold to Cornucopia Natural Foods.

Wish I could format this better... Delaski was chairman of Prem Mark, Inc. and a Copy of the agreement was sent to Jacobs.

Mare

AS TO SELLER: Prem Mark, Inc.
Donald Delaski, Chairman
8280 Greensboro Drive
McLean, Virginia 22101

COPY TO: Robert A. Jacobs, Chairman
c/o Milbank, Tweed, Hadley & McCloy
1 Chase Manhattan Plaza
New York, New York 10005

SELLER: BUYER:

PREM MARK, INC. CORNUCOPIA NATURAL FOODS, INC.

By: /s/ Donald deLaski By: /s/ Norman A. Cloutier

Donald deLaski Norman A. Cloutier
Chairman of the Board President
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 17:19:41 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: The Bill Clinton Connection
Message:
Empty your fridges of those Tyson chickens!
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 23:19:11 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Tofu Chicken Only
Message:
Empty your fridges of those Tyson chickens!

Don't forget Marianne, we are all vegetarian and would never eat chicken.:)
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Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 17:40:32 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: Street Premie
Subject: DelTek
Message:
Hi SP,

It's registered in Virginia to Donald Delaski and his wife.

Mary M
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Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 18:07:46 (EDT)
From: John
Email: None
To: Street Premie
Subject: gossip
Message:
Geez, I vaguely remember Don Delaski. Though I can't tell you the first thing about him.
When were you in D.C.?
I was there off and on from 73 to 80.

The people who really understood K never did satsang, service and meditation ... aint that the truth!
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Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 18:31:10 (EDT)
From: Street Premie
Email: None
To: John
Subject: gossip
Message:
Hi-

I was in D.C. on and off from mid 70's to mid 90's. Last cc there i was aware of was this clown named Jon Knight-must have been important cuz he always got to be UP FRONT at the festival.

It's funny but agya(scam)was always pretty clear, i.e. service, satsang and meditation and i always secretly wondered why some seemed to not need this(of course there was no wondering out loud permitted). No judging!!
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Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 21:48:51 (EDT)
From: dv
Email: None
To: Street Premie
Subject: PREM MARK Tidbits
Message:
Hi Street P- I lived there too, knew Don. I heard that Eric, Reggie Brown's son, and Don made a fortune in some software venture.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 07:08:48 (EDT)
From: sp
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: PREM MARK Tidbits
Message:
Yes-that is probably DelTek. It would be interesting to see their bank deposit records i.e. cash deposits.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 08:37:00 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: sp
Subject: DelTeK Tidbits
Message:
Gentlepeople,

The names:

NAME AGE POSITION

Donald deLaski........... 64 Chairman of the Board of Directors and
Treasurer
Kenneth E. deLaski....... 38 President, Chief Executive Officer and
Director
Eric F. Brown............ 32 Vice President, Technical Operations
Donald G. Craft.......... 44 Vice President, Client Services
Johnny C. Cheng.......... 38 Vice President, Material Management Product
Group
Dien Hoang Do............ 44 Vice President, Technology
Alan R. Stewart.......... 42 Chief Financial Officer and Secretary
Robert E. Gregg.......... 49 Director
Darrell J. Oyer.......... 55 Director Nominee
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 16:24:40 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: DelTeK Tidbits
Message:
Deltek is pretty big. It has 555 employees. But I note its stock has dropped by half in the past few months, from about $20 per share to about $9. Also:

DLTK is a provider of enterprise software products such as financial and project accounting, human resources, management & administration, materials management & project reporting. For the FY ended 12/31/98, revenues rose 44% to $83.1M. Net income (vs. pro forma) rose 9% to $11.8M. Revenues reflect new implementations of Costpoint systems. Earnings were partially offset by a $2.5M in-process R & D charge & $1.5M in acquisition & failed offering costs.
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 02:02:52 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: Friends
Subject: Prouty/Murphy/Emerson
Message:
Good Morning Forumers!

For all you folks out there who may be wondering how Randy Prouty and Jim Emerson are doing, I paste the following.

Another Non-Profit Corporation with a new geographic triangle, Atlanta, Malibu, West Palm Beach.

Heres United Pathways, Inc.

NUM: N46592 ST:FL ACTIVE/FL NON-PROF FLD: 12/24/1991
LAST: NAME CHANGE AMENDMENT FLD: 04/24/1997FEI#: 65-0302723
NAME : UNITED PATHWAYS, INC.NH: 1
PRINCIPAL: C/O RANDALL PROUTY CHANGED: 05/01/96
ADDRESS 2247 PALM BEACH LAKES BLVD., STE 220
WEST PALM BEACH, FL 33409
RA NAME : PROUTY, RANDALL NAME CHG: 05/01/96
RA ADDR : 2247 PALM BEACH LAKES BLVD., STE. 220 ADDR CHG: 05/01/96
WEST PALM BEACH, FL 33409 US
ANN REP : (1996) A 05/01/96 (1997) B 04/01/97 (1998) BN 05/19/98

CORP NUMBER: N46592 CORP NAME: UNITED PATHWAYS, INC.
TITLE: PDS NAME: PROUTY, RANDALL H.
2247 PALM BEACH LAKES BLVD., #220
WEST PALM BEACH, FL 33409
TITLE: D NAME: MURPHY, CHRISTINA
1900 DECKER SCHOOL LANE
MALIBU, CA 90265
TITLE: D NAME: EMERSON, JIM
411 VALLEY LAKE DRIVE
ATLANTA, GA 30087

CORP NUMBER: N46592 CORP STATUS: ACTIVE
FILED DATE : 12/24/1991CORP NAME : UNITED PATHWAYS, INC.
EVENT TYPE FILED EFFECTIVE DESCRIPTION
DATE DATE
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NAME CHANGE 04/24/1997 OLD NAME WAS : ASSISTCARE, INC.
AMENDMENT
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 11:08:49 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Mary M
Subject: Prouty/Murphy/Emerson
Message:
ANN REP : (1996) A 05/01/96 (1997) B 04/01/97 (1998) BN 05/19/98

Mary, these are annual reports for the company that have been filed. Do you have access to those?

NAME CHANGE 04/24/1997 OLD NAME WAS : ASSISTCARE, INC. AMENDMENT

Doesn't this sound like some form of medical or medical care company? 'Assisticare, Inc?' Although, United Pathways doesn't sound much like that.

Mary, can you e-mail me and let me know how you are finding this stuff? Is it just Florida secretary of State records on line?

I would be happy to do some searching in California.

Does anyone remember Christina Murphy?

Looks like Emerson is back in Atlanta.
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 13:27:46 (EDT)
From: dv
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Prouty/Murphy/Emerson
Message:
I knew Tina Murphy- a blueblood pam. The office on Palm Bech Blvd was used for programs for a while when the lease ran out the the previous site. I was only there once- gee, I wish my eyes were open at the time.
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 13:49:20 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: Tina Murphy
Message:
So, you saw Tina Murphy in the office on Palm Beach Blvd.? How long ago was that? If Tina is still a premie, I assume the other two are as well.
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 16:14:46 (EDT)
From: dv
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Tina Murphy
Message:
Sorry for theconfusion- I knew Tina, but never saw her at that office. I saw Randy at a program, I think it was Long Beach 97.
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 17:55:41 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: Tina Murphy
Message:
Is Tina Dennis Murphy's sister?
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 23:38:45 (EDT)
From: dv
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Tina Murphy
Message:
No.
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 14:00:03 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: United Pathways - newage?
Message:
I found nothing relevant on Assistcare on the web.

A search on the Internet via HotBot on the string United Pathways finds this connection:

Gillian Wright spoke at a confernece at Cambridge on Metaphysics and Healing: Microcosm and Macrocosm.

BEYOND THE BRAIN

Frontiers in Consciousness and Healing

August 21-24, 1997

St. John's College

Cambridge, England



Gillian Wright is an international lecturer in the field of Metaphysics and Director of Global Vision Network (GVN) Ltd, a multimedia company started in London. GVN seeks to awaken people's global awareness - though TV, film, documentaries and the Internet - by highlighting the positive initiatives that are being created in domains such as politics, science, the environment and education. She is also Director of United Pathways Foundation, a Co-Director of the Health Partnership and Co-Vice President of The Club of Budapest International, a body of recognised leaders in the arts, politics, science and spiritual education, who are dedicated to the creation of a better future through insight and imagination.
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 14:22:16 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: Global Vision Network
Message:
Oh shit, we're getting further and further out there with this one. The possible linkage to United Pathways leads to Gillian Wright and she leads to Global Vision Network based out of Asheville NC and Brighton, UK which is a really new-agey kind of place that has all sorts of little quotes like the following:

Every raindrop entering the ocean becomes the ocean

'We all come into this world with our unique fragment of perfect vision. It is our life's work to tune into, identify, and place that fragment on the table in context with each others', so that we all can see the bigger picture of the possibility that exists for all of us'

'We have a choice - Our planet reflecting the very highest aspiration of what it is to be a human being.'

'We are all prisoners of war - The war monster does not really exist, it is a phantom, a fantasy that we human beings are collectively creating out of our fear.'

'This is the moment within which all existence lies.'

'It's easy if you try'.....There is nothing wrong with our world, we are just having a weird conversation ...........Our new world order is love .............We are the powers that be ........ Think universally act personally ........ We are the tail end of our future, the possibility for which is created by the choice we make in the present moment ......... Social acupuncture - the power to make a difference with a single act of conversation ....... Every raindrop entering the ocean becomes the ocean ..... The beat of a butterfly's wing can at a crtical moment result in the occurence of a hurricane on the far side of the ocean

From Roger: Ick! I can't look at this stuff anymore. The dripping faucet in my bathroom is reminding me of a mountain stream.
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Date: Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 13:14:59 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: Hey, Roger
Message:
I think United Pathways, Inc., which is the corporate entity is something entirely different than United Pathways Foundation, which is all the high-flying stuff you found on Hotbot. Although the crap they are preaching does sound a bit like Maharaji's stuff. Anyhow, I don't see any evidence that the two entities are connecte, but who knows what will turn up?
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Date: Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 14:12:27 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Global Vision newage BS
Message:
Yeah, I don't really know what it is. However, the quote There is nothing wrong with our world, we are just having a weird conversation sounds awfully familiar, either some newage jargon or Maharaji within the last 3 years. I really think I heard that from Maharaji at a recent Long Beach.
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 11:12:44 (EDT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: outing the Prouty
Message:
I will post a satsang of randy's that I have on tape.
rawat fried him good when he was assisting him.

Any clues as to the business of the 'formerly titled Assisted Care'?
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Date: Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 12:37:12 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: outing the Prouty
Message:
rawat fried him good when he was assisting him.

Can you elaborate? Why and how did Rawat fire Randy? Have you heard if Randy is still a cult member?
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Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 23:28:15 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Chicken!!
Message:
It's amazing to see Maharaji talk to us indirectly through his cult programming sessions. Here're some tidbits from today's dispatch from Malaysia:

About seriously considering his bullshit:

'We can all do that when it suits us. We can all do that. We can all place a loose interpretation on a word or a phrase if we think it will be to our advantage. But the funny thing is, when it comes to wisdom, we suddenly become determined to be totally literal. Whatever it says in the book, we take it word for word. And then, we miss the point. We read the words of great teachers and we try to be strictly literal when they are trying to give us clues, not rules.'

About studying his trip:

'There is a big difference between information and knowledge. Information is academic, encyclopaedic, and all over the place. It doesn't do you any good, if you're trying to spell 'down' and you know the spelling of 'up', it doesn't help. People have tons of information. They might have information like all the names of the people who have ever lived this life. How does that help you enjoy yours? There are people who might have information about all the masters that have ever been. How does that help you find the one who is here, now? It doesn't. People like information because they know they don't have to do anything with it. Knowledge is different... once you have knowledge you can actually do something with it. Do you want information that you never use but carry in your head and keep forgetting... Or do you want Knowledge?'

Denise??

About studying him:

'There are even people stupid enough to try to say: 'This is what a master should be like.' If they looked at their own information they would realise that every master is different. Why shouldn't they be different? There are masters who had beards and masters who didn't have beards. There were masters who wore saffron and masters who didn't wear saffron. There were masters who walked around and masters who didn't. There were masters who wrote poems and songs and there were masters who didn't let anyone speak.

You can have a family of eight kids and no two kids in that family need be alike. Same mother and father - you can even have them DNA tested - yet even if they are genetically similar they will be totally different people. They can be raised the same way in the same house, fed the same food, yelled at in the same way; same father doing the same yelling using the same words... yet they all turn out different!'

About Socrates' principle that true belief without justification isn't knowledge at all, just a lucky guess:

'There were three guys and all their nuts and bolts weren't completely there. They had been in a hospital for a really, really long time and they were told: 'We are thinking about letting you out, but first you have to pass a little test. They were very excited. One by one, they sat down on the other side of the desk and the psychiatrist said: 'OK. Here's the test: tell me what is two plus two?' They thought and thought and thought. The first said: '6,000.' The doctor replied: 'I'm sorry but that's not the right answer. You're going to have to stay here a little while longer.' He looked at the second guy and said: 'What's two plus two?' The second guy thought and he thought and finally he said: 'Saturday!' The doctor said: 'No, sorry. That's not the right answer. I can't let you out.' Then he turned to the last guy and said: 'What's two plus two?' and this third guy said: 'Four.' The doctor was very surprised but he signed the form and said: 'OK. You can leave.' Just as he was leaving the doctor said: 'By the way, how did you come up with that answer?' The third guy said: 'Oh it was easy, I took 6000 and divided it by Saturday.' That's so often how we operate in this world. We take 6000 and divide it by Saturday and we say: 'Four', and it sounds right. It sounds right but the reasoning is ultra-wrong. It's not enough to just say the right thing. You have to understand what it means.'

Cute story but relevance?
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Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 03:51:25 (EDT)
From: Diz
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: taking him too literally
Message:
Hi Jim

First reaction is I'm glad I'm not there! Probably with my 20-year conditioning I shouldn't even be reading this stuff!

Think you may be right about us being the target of at least some of it. Guess he'd appreciate you passing it on.

Re 'seriously considering his bs':

This idea that what we - I - did was take him too literally really gets me. What a caveat! If you follow something he says, and it creates problems, then it was your fault because, silly person, you TOOK HIM TOO LITERALLY! Doesn't matter that he just spent years telling you that your perceptions and understandings were liable to be off the wall, and that he was the only one around who could really act as your guide. Doesn't matter that he stopped premies giving satsang, because they were so confused and confusing. When it suits him, you're meant to use your own judgement to rewrite his direction - ie, whenever what he says is problematic. Otherwise, you're to be the ignorant student who should come to their master without judgement. The one who shouldn't point out when the bucket has holes. He surely wants it both ways. YUK!!!

Hope that makes sense. I still get this feeling of being caught in the circular logic. Someone else untangle this stuff for me, please!

Diz
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Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 10:16:35 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Diz
Subject: taking him too literally
Message:
Diz,

The problem I had with Maharaji was the ASSUMPTION that he was a holy and wise man. I assumed that he had figured out life and that when he spoke, that's where he was coming from. I thought he knew better than me so I never applied any critical thinking to him to see where he might trip himself up and reveal himself to be just another Joe Bloe with his own 'bright' ideas, which is really all he is. I've sat next to drunks on a barstool that made more sense than M.

When you strip M of his mystique and actually think of the things he says to measure their depth, you find no depth at all. You just find yourself confronted with vague, ambiguous chatter. It's as if he's given himself a license to say whatever the hell he pleases. Why not? We're going to buy it whatever he says anyway. You also find him dodging any critical thinking you might apply to him. He discourages it. He just wants you to believe that he is the master and that's that. The truth of that is in his own words:

There are even people stupid enough to try to say: 'This is what a master should be like.' If they looked at their own information they would realise that every master is different.

In other words, M is informing us that he'll be anyway and do anything he damn well pleases and if we object, its only because we're too stupid to realize that as a master, that's his perogative, as a master, he's beyond reproach. As long as Maharaji can maintain an illuision in our minds that he is a master, than he can also convince us that its beyond us, as students, to fully comprehend his meaning or to judge him. But once you start to think of him as somebody who was just fortunate to be born in the right time and place to be placed on an undeserved throne of divinity, he loses a lot of his sparkle and becomes quite mundane.

A lot of people might disagree, but by posting Maharaji's words here on the ex forum, Jim's giving us an opportunity to break the spell. All you've got to do is THINK about the things M says, instead of 'listening with your heart' (gagh!) which is also just another attempt on M's part to parry critical thinking.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 12:06:05 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Jerry
Subject: taking him too literally
Message:
Dear Jerry,
'But once you start to think of him as somebody who was just fortunate to be born in the right time and place to be placed on an undeserved throne of divinity,'
I don't think of him as fortunate at all! I mean he HAS STUFF and can be cruel to people or worshiped but I think he KNOWS the truth and it is why he drinks or whatever else he does, being cruel, having affairs, to fill that huge empty space were the truth really lives. Even if he thinks he is happy or fortunate I think somewhere inside, maybe to come out in stress related physical illness, that he is not happy or peaceful or content or of course god at all.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 19:01:32 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Dear Dr. Robyn
Message:
Robyn,

Just kidding with the Dr. Robyn stuff. But you could very well be correct that M was not so 'fortunate' at all to be born the Son of God (that's what daddy M was, y'know). I can only imagine what that must be like. I have to admit, though, to the son of a gambler who couldn't hold a job, it looks pretty good, comparatively speaking. M does certainly indulge in the benefits of being born into his station. Is he deep down inside unhappy? Is that why he lives such a lucrative lifestyle, to try and make up for the emptiness inside by showering himself with material things? I'm not an analyst. I couldn't say. The point I was really trying to make is that M INHERITED perfect master status. He didn't earn it. Like a lot of rich kids, daddy gave it to him.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 21:28:41 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Jerry
Subject: Dear Dr. Robyn
Message:
Dear Jerry,
I knew what you meant but for me anyway I wouldn't want to be in his postion, not even for my own private jet and a gold toilet seat. He is like Michael Jackson with his anti-germ fettish too. I don't know if he thinks he is happy or not but I have a negative percent of interest in trading places and I am no big sucess in my life either believe me. I just found out that although the money is there for my position the necessary paper work has not been sent to my University so any time I worked after 3/31 I can not put on my time sheet. Still I'd choose my life over M's for sure and sorry Jerry dear but I wouldn't trade places with you either, standing in line to bliss out on the sounds from the water fountain! :) Sorry, I am still quite amused by that one. :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 17:26:00 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: taking him too literally
Message:
'I've sat next to drunks on the barstool who made better sense than M' HO HO

Did you know the Austin Lounge Lizards? There's a song 'Old Blevins' that's just about that very subject.
The chorus goes:
And he said 'Blah blah blah blah blah blah them crazy hippies, blah blah blah blah' you get the picture. It's hilarious, I can make you a tape if you want.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 19:12:00 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Tapes
Message:
Hi, Helen. If you want to make a tape, sure, I'd like one. It's always nice to get presents in the mail. How about you? You say tapes are always welcome. Want me to make up another for you? I've got all kinds of music, but lately I've been buying a lot of rock. If you want, I can make up a hodgepodge tape of all the new stuff I've bought lately. Just say the word, it'll be my pleasure.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 19:20:21 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Tapes
Message:
Well here we are all hangin out on the forum at the same time. Ain't this cozy now? So you want the Lounge Lizards (they are comedic as hell) Just say the word, bro. Let's see, you're into rock these days, eh? Well I have a very strange request for you. That would be to make me a tape of some good dance music. Even a few Madonna tunes would be groovy--the ones you like. I would really like something I could crank up and dance to or play real loud on the DC beltway so the traffic doesn't get to me so much. But I don't like real crazy heavy metal-y type stuff or too much angry type stuff--too much stress for little Helen's already blown out nervous system. You make nice tape for me just right, not too harsh but dance nice music for me, okay?

What do ya want on the other side of Austin Lounge Lizards. How bout Bruce Cockburn or the other Eva Cassidy record we have? Or some Steve Gooodman? You like Irish fusion stuff? Or Aretha-type stuff? Now don't laugh but Kathy Mattea's recent album is so beautiful. You like? You like Mary Chapin Carpenter? Waddya like, bubby? I make nice for you.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 21:33:17 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Helen
Subject: Tapes
Message:
Dear Helen,
I listened to a ZZ Top tape, the one with 'Best Dressed Man' as I was coming into the city when I ventured out to visit Brian last summer. It was great and I felt so strong and competent, not getting lost! Would you like a tape of that for the beltway? Mind you I am TERRIBLE with snail mail but if you didn't get it before you could get it when you visit. :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 21:41:36 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Tapes & visits (ot)
Message:
Hey Robyn,
Speaking of that visit we have nailed down our dates!! Whoo hoo! July 17-25. I will em ya but could we stay at your place on the 17 and possibly 18? Would love a ZZ Top tape--I like that song too. Take your time--I know it is a 4 hr drive to the post office where you live in the boonies--ha ha. Here I am doing email business on the forum--but it is the happening place to be tonight. So glad you are finally getting some of this fabulous weather. It is actually hot here tonight!

Love
Helen
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Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 21:55:34 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Helen
Subject: Tapes & visits (ot)
Message:
Dear Helen,
7/17 and 7/18 are yours, I'll keep my cloths on, I promise, may do a belly dance for you all in the evening though, good entertainment out here in the boonies! :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 22:17:11 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Tapes
Message:
Helen,

I'm really not much into dance music. Sounds like the same junk they were playing in the discos during the 70s only even more lame than that. I do, however, love Madonna's latest album, 'Ray Of Light'. I'll record some stuff off of that and see what else I can come up with. I'll think 'dance' and 'easy on the nerves' while I'm putting it together, although I'm sure my idea of what a good song to dance to is a world apart from what today's dance crowd thinks. I like dancing to Rory Block, to give you an idea. Anyway, I'll give it my best shot. As far as what you're going to send my way, your recommendation of Kathy Mattea sounds pretty good. I'll be looking forward to it. Thanks.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 23:36:31 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Tapes
Message:
Okay I will make you the tape. Kathy Mattea's new CD is not what you think (not country). It is really beautiful, she has really matured into her own musician and it is luscious. I will need your address again, though, do you mind emailing me at HelenRDC@aol.com
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Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 18:55:27 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Hey Jerry
Message:
You know.... some masters wore beards and others didn't, some ate food and others didn't, some were ascetics and some weren't, and ONE sh_ts on a gold toilet and NONE of the others did that! .... :-)
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Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 05:36:08 (EDT)
From: ex-mug
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Chicken!!
Message:
mm, since when has reasoning been a part of M's trip?

ex-
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Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 10:36:56 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Jim
Subject: Divide 6000 by Saturday
Message:
What a pile of empty, self-contradictory waffle.

There were three guys and all their nuts and bolts weren't completely there...

First off, the joke was in somewhat bad taste, and pretty offensive to people with psychiatric problems (Imagine if he'd said 'Three Polacks...' or 'Three nutters...'). Especially when you remember that the premie population has a disproportionately high incidence of mental illness. But I'm sure they'll forgive him, since he's perfect, right?.

And one thing's for sure: the hamster didn't invent that joke. If he had, it would have fitted the context rather better. I think Mr Rawat is actually a bit of a magpie. Keeps an ear open for anecdotes, epigrams or Cheech and Chong sayings to regurgitate as if they were his own. (You'd be amazed at how many of those old satsang quotes appear in the Hare Krishna culture; that one about 'take one step towards the Master, and the Master will take ten steps...' used to be quoted by Prabhupada.)

M specialises in free-form, loosely, and incoherently associated, homespun philosophical bullshit. Which is why it never adds up to anything. But that stuff about dividing 6000 by Saturday to get the answer 'four': that is exactly what M requires his followers to do.

As new premie, I always found it odd and very frustrating that most of M's satsangs were given over to what sounds like introductory stuff - and he still seems to be doing it today. You'd be looking to hear something that would help you make some progress in knowledge, and all you'd get would be more stuff along the lines of: The world stinks / You'll never be happy from wordly pleasures / receiving K is the answer / Don't have concepts about what the Master should be like / Great Masters have come before / The Master has come again / Don't waste your life / Come to the Master / Receive this Knowledge...

And you're going: 'yes, yes. I know all that. I believe you. I already received Knowledge, remember. Tell me something that will help me get a bit further in, deepen the experience, tell me ways to cope in the world that will help me realise Knowledge or something, please... Isn't that what it's supposed to be about?

I can only think of two reasons why M has this total 'introductory' focus. The first is, that there is no 'deeper' place to get to. When you have that relaxed, mellow, group-high sensation from a satsang or festival situation, that's as good as it gets. When you subdue all that cognitive and sensory noise by doing the K techniques you can feel very peaceful, sure - like an infant in a cot, or whatever. But that, too, is as good as it gets. For M, just as it is for you. He has never got any further, either, since there is no 'further' to get. So M can only give satsang along the lines of: 'Wouldn't it be great if there were such thing as a Perfect Master to save us from the miseries of this life?' The stage two satsang: 'Going in deeper' never arrives.

The other reason for aspirant-level instruction (even for old-timers) is, I think, the need for new recruits - just like Kramer and co said in those Guru paper quotes Jerry posted below. Whatever M says in a video will sooner or later be repeated by premies to their acquaintances in 'the world'. It doesn't matter in the slightest that premies don't give satsang any more, since, as I recall, it was more the shared confidences and little secrets that the premies let you in on whilst drinking coffee or walking home that did the trick. All those 'I'm not supposed to tell you this, but...' moments (thinks: 'I should really be referring them to Booth Dyess...'). And out come all these fully-formed stories and quotable snippets, where M said this, or M said that...

But back to that line about dividing 6000 by Saturday and getting four. Let's assume that 'four' is the solution Maharaji wants us to arrive at, and 'four' = 'Knowledge is the Truth, and Maharaji is the only living Master who can give Knowledge'. How does he persuade us that this is the case? He conveys no information and conveys no (small 'k') knowledge. M points out, irrelevantly, that information and knowledge are different, but shares neither with his followers.

He certainly doesn't say 'here's two, and here's another two - now put them together...' Instead he says 'Here's 6000. Here's 'Saturday. The answer is four. Trust me.'

(Premies: you should trust this guy about as far as you could throw a grand piano.)
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Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 13:36:03 (EDT)
From: John
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: my sentiments exactly!
Message:
Yeah, what you say was exactly my whole problem with surrenduring my will to the Master. I wanted more from The Knowledge than he was willing to share or reveal. I kept waiting for something more to be added to the mix. There never was. Like you say, he has never gotten past the point of: 'the world stinks, everyone is an idiot, so surrender to me!'
And what a riot to hear that 17 years after I left, he's still saying the same thing!
Sorry, M, my dear ex-guru, if I'm gonna go to the trouble of following a Master, I want a master who has a more interesting trip to reveal to me.
I mean, I know my breath is precious, but c'mon, it really does not compare to sex, or good music, or a good tv show, or good conversation, or good food, or any of life's simple pleasures.
Sorry pal! Give me the worldly path any day of the week. I know I'm revealing my lack of spiritual depth here, but hey, what can I say, I evolved!
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Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 16:45:36 (EDT)
From: crow noises
Email: None
To: John
Subject: John Cainer the liar
Message:
Well who could tell when John Crainer the liar would
finally allow a qoute from a recent program to be aired
that spoke of rawat as lord master.

Those talks are loaded with the -master crap- and the
premie forum has been editing them out.
His talks are still geared towards propagating him as lord master.
god incarnate.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 17:16:41 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Everyone on dis thread
Subject: my sentiments exactly!
Message:
Great thread guys! Diz--so true, the guy has set it up so he's the Teflon guru!! John & Jerry & Nigel, you wanted more out of knowledge because the human brain craves more information and learning, humans just naturally want to grow and learn. What a stagnating swamp of a trip. It just underscores the contempt he has for his premies that he keeps feeding them the same stale crap.

Robyn I think you bring up a real interesting point. Is M happy? He sounds neurotic as hell. Well, I can't imagine him being truly happy as long as he's running his trip. But you know, Robyn, it could be that because you are a good person and have a conscience, you can't imagine others being corrupt and being happy. You would be unhappy running a scam, but maybe he's happy as a pig in shit. Because his make up is very twisted I think. He doesn't give a shit. And if this is so, then he really is evil.
What do you all think.
Helen
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Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 17:28:14 (EDT)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: my sentiments exactly!
Message:
If you believed in God, then probably the worst sin against god would be to impersonate him. If you duped hundreds of thousands of people into thinking you were god, then probably you would have very little respect for people, in general. What idiots!

If you wanted to rationalize your little (big) trip, you could say, it could be worse for them, they are so stupid, probably they would just be in some worse koolaid or space ship cult if not for me...i am protecting them. Besides, they love me so much, they give me all these gifts because they want to and if they don't like it, they can leave.

Wait a minute, that's exactly what he said, isn't it?

Victoria
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Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 17:33:46 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Victoria
Subject: my sentiments exactly!
Message:
YUP. He can excuse it all by saying it's peoples' free will. I'm tellin' ya he's the Teflon Guru. Looks like we're on line at the same time but now I gotta get back to my mommy duties. BYE
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Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 21:53:45 (EDT)
From: david m
Email: None
To: Victoria
Subject: my sentiments exactly!
Message:
Hey Vic..AMEN.Could not have said it Better...peace.david m
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 23:37:57 (EDT)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: david m
Subject: my sentiments exactly!
Message:
Thanks David...just trying to understand it all, and hopefully helping to truly enlighten a few lurkers!

=)

Victoria
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 21:48:19 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: my sentiments exactly!
Message:
Dear Helen,

I hope I'm not being too airy-fairy but I don't think an unethical person, especially to this degree can be happy. I suppose he comforts himself with premies looking blissed out at programmes.

Do you suppose he knows that when they go home they become neurotic trying to re-kindle that feeling (probably the high emotional state of enthusiasm) that only comes when they see him. He has taught (brainwashed) them into believing they can experience this all the time. This is so frustrating for premies because they are back in the hell he has brainwashed them into believing the world is (something not to get enthusiastic about).

Trust me, I have experienced similar states while practicing meditation and afterwards but when I woke up in the morning I felt awful - nothing to get enthusiastic about) sooner or later I had to experience the real world. Now I know it's not so bad after all.
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