Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 44

From: Mar 30, 1999

To: Apr 19, 1999

Page: 2 Of: 5



Katie -:- becoming an ex-premie? -:- Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 13:17:27 (EDT)
__Helen -:- becoming an ex-premie? -:- Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 13:47:13 (EDT)
____Selene -:- becoming an ex-premie? -:- Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 13:58:19 (EDT)
______Helen -:- becoming an ex-premie? -:- Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 14:08:04 (EDT)
________Helen -:- becoming an ex-premie? -:- Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 14:09:45 (EDT)
__________Liz -:- becoming an ex-premie? -:- Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 15:09:54 (EDT)
____________Helen -:- becoming an ex-premie? -:- Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 15:43:17 (EDT)
______________Mike -:- (mmmm) donuts -:- Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 16:05:36 (EDT)
______________Runamok -:- it;'s your business not theirs -:- Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 09:34:29 (EDT)
________________Liz -:- it;'s your business not theirs -:- Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 10:42:22 (EDT)
________________Helen -:- it;'s your business not theirs -:- Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 13:46:46 (EDT)
__________________Runamok -:- it;'s your business not theirs -:- Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 00:35:54 (EDT)
____________________Helen -:- it;'s your business not theirs -:- Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 01:43:34 (EDT)
______Becky -:- becoming an ex-premie? -:- Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 09:37:12 (EDT)
__chr -:- becoming an ex-premie? -:- Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 20:47:02 (EDT)
__Zac -:- becoming an ex-premie? -:- Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 21:11:22 (EDT)
____Diz -:- becoming an ex-premie? -:- Thurs, Apr 15, 1999 at 09:01:41 (EDT)
__Mark Appleman -:- becoming an ex-premie? -:- Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 04:17:01 (EDT)
____Zac -:- Great Post Mark, thanks -:- Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 07:04:50 (EDT)
____Diz -:- becoming an ex-premie? -:- Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 07:21:06 (EDT)
______Liz -:- becoming an ex-premie? -:- Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 11:14:56 (EDT)
____Mary M -:- You've said it all! -:- Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 08:12:48 (EDT)
____Katie -:- Thanks! (any more stories?) -:- Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 10:39:32 (EDT)
____JW -:- becoming an ex-premie? -:- Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 14:51:39 (EDT)
__eb -:- becoming an ex-premie? -:- Thurs, Apr 15, 1999 at 01:27:17 (EDT)

sp -:- weak and ignorant, etc -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 20:28:39 (EDT)

jim -:- m's brain development theory -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 15:26:23 (EDT)
__Helen -:- m's brain development theory -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 15:33:42 (EDT)
____Roger E. Drek -:- Maharaji's a simpleton -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 15:44:39 (EDT)
______nigel -:- Maharaji is a moron! -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 18:37:24 (EDT)
________CD -:- ah -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 19:59:05 (EDT)
__________Jerry -:- ah -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 20:49:13 (EDT)
____________Helen -:- Failure to thrive -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 21:52:41 (EDT)
______________Jerry -:- Failure to thrive -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 22:42:20 (EDT)
________________sp -:- Failure to thrive -:- Sun, Apr 11, 1999 at 00:46:19 (EDT)
________________Jerry -:- Correcting myself -:- Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 09:04:00 (EDT)
__________________Helen -:- Correcting myself -:- Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 09:55:49 (EDT)
________________Mike -:- Once again, on the head! -:- Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 14:16:35 (EDT)
______________Liz -:- Failure to thrive -:- Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 11:59:07 (EDT)
____________Mike -:- ah -:- Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 14:06:15 (EDT)
______________Helen -:- ah -:- Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 14:13:09 (EDT)
__________nigel -:- divide 6000 by Saturday... -:- Sun, Apr 11, 1999 at 02:58:44 (EDT)

Jim -:- Check this out - CD!!!! -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 14:57:55 (EDT)
__Roger E. Drek -:- Master's ball game (gross!) -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 15:52:53 (EDT)
__Jim -:- Chris' little teddybear picnic -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 20:03:33 (EDT)
____Jim -:- This time he answered -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 20:43:44 (EDT)
______Jim -:- You guys have to see this -:- Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 21:24:32 (EDT)
________Roger E. Drek -:- nah, I won't say that -:- Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 01:41:02 (EDT)
______VP -:- This time he answered -:- Thurs, Apr 15, 1999 at 00:37:35 (EDT)
________Jim -:- Juicy example of something -:- Thurs, Apr 15, 1999 at 11:13:37 (EDT)

Roger E. Drek -:- Maharaji - Private Investor -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 14:55:20 (EDT)
__Roger E. Drek -:- Web search engines HotBot -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 15:26:24 (EDT)
____Roger E. Drek -:- Web search engines Excite -:- Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 16:03:22 (EDT)

Jim -:- How much mind's okay? -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 23:16:48 (EDT)
__JW -:- How much mind's okay? -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 23:32:12 (EDT)
____bb -:- thinking quotes from him -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 23:59:13 (EDT)
______Mary M -:- My thinking quote - lame ;-o -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 00:37:10 (EDT)
________sp -:- My thinking quote - lame ;-o -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 19:40:30 (EDT)
__Jerry -:- How much mind's okay? -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 22:15:18 (EDT)

Brian -:- Two new Journeys entries -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 21:54:17 (EDT)
__Helen -:- Two new Journeys entries -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 13:44:14 (EDT)
__Jim -:- Both excellent -:- Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 22:19:56 (EDT)
____crow -:- I agree-thanks guys(nt) -:- Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 21:16:04 (EDT)

TJ -:- Rhino Copy -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 19:10:35 (EDT)
__Roger Drek -:- Rhino Copy -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 21:39:25 (EDT)
____TJ -:- Lila, Inc -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 17:44:33 (EDT)

Helen -:- tall tale or true: you decide -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 17:57:57 (EDT)
__Mike -:- tall tale or true: you decide -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 18:02:20 (EDT)
__dv -:- tall tale or true: you decide -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 18:22:20 (EDT)
__JW -:- tall tale or true: you decide -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 19:17:52 (EDT)
____Mike -:- tall tale or true: you decide -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 19:30:32 (EDT)
______Roger E. Drek -:- tall tale or true: you decide -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 20:52:35 (EDT)
________crow -:- here is the earlier version -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 23:55:43 (EDT)
__________gerry the terrible -:- highway to hell -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 00:02:28 (EDT)
____________bb -:- highway to hell-right -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 00:18:38 (EDT)
______________Jethro -:- highway to hell-right -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 03:09:01 (EDT)
________________Helen -:- highway to hell-right -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 13:56:21 (EDT)
______________CD -:- highway to hell-right -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 13:31:17 (EDT)
________________sp -:- highway to hell-right -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 14:03:32 (EDT)
__________________Liz -:- highway to hell-right -:- Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 13:30:39 (EDT)
________________dvd -:- thanks CD -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 16:50:45 (EDT)
______________Bobby -:- hell or heaven right here -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 14:44:51 (EDT)
________________bb -:- hell or heaven right here -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 16:33:36 (EDT)
__________________Bobby -:- Woodstock - ot -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 17:10:41 (EDT)
________Mike -:- medium rare -:- Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 15:00:06 (EDT)
__Jethro -:- tall tale or true: you decide -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 02:59:06 (EDT)
____Runamok -:- tall tale or true: you decide -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 03:19:32 (EDT)
______Jethro -:- tall tale or true: you decide -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 03:23:22 (EDT)
________Runamok -:- tall tale or true: you decide -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 13:56:24 (EDT)
__________Helen -:- tall tale or true: you decide -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 14:04:01 (EDT)
____________Helen -:- tall tale or true: you decide -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 14:24:48 (EDT)
__________Jethro -:- tall tale or true: you decide -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 14:31:00 (EDT)
____Liz -:- tall tale or true: you decide -:- Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 13:51:26 (EDT)

Mary M -:- Onae ???? -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 14:12:13 (EDT)
__JW -:- Onae -- also Jacobs -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 15:02:09 (EDT)
____Mary M -:- Onae -- also Jacobs -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 17:00:03 (EDT)
__Mary M -:- Onae ???? -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 17:25:08 (EDT)
____dv -:- Onae ???? -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 18:31:44 (EDT)
______Mary M -:- Onae ???? Off-Color -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 20:28:40 (EDT)
__Marianne -:- Onae ???? -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 20:26:13 (EDT)
__looking -:- More for sherlock -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 12:33:07 (EDT)
____dv -:- More for sherlock -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 13:05:57 (EDT)
______Sherlock -:- ExecuCorp -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 16:48:08 (EDT)
________Sherlock -:- Quantum -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 16:49:20 (EDT)
__________Sherlock -:- SEVA -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 16:50:28 (EDT)
____________Watson -:- SEVA -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 20:58:21 (EDT)
__________Jean-Michel -:- Quantum: Jet's leasing -:- Sun, Apr 11, 1999 at 03:09:35 (EDT)
__________JW -:- Quantum Leasing -:- Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 10:16:28 (EDT)
____________Liz -:- Quantum Leasing -:- Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 14:59:55 (EDT)
________JW -:- ExecuCorp, Inc. -:- Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 10:30:01 (EDT)
__________Roger E. Drek -:- DeLaski family Deltek -:- Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 13:52:34 (EDT)
____________Mary M -:- Lem Lasher - DECA - ?IMMCO -:- Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 20:19:12 (EDT)
______________Mary M -:- Lem & Pals Bus Line -:- Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 20:26:14 (EDT)
________________JW -:- This Was the Travel Agency -:- Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 22:54:44 (EDT)
__________________Mary M -:- This Was the Travel Agency -:- Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 07:49:50 (EDT)
______________JW -:- IMMCO -:- Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 22:47:55 (EDT)
________________bb -:- deca group -:- Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 00:05:33 (EDT)
__________________JW -:- Fried Prouty -:- Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 00:22:16 (EDT)
____________________Mary M -:- Fried Prouty :-) -:- Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 07:52:59 (EDT)
______________________JW -:- Fried Prouty :-) -:- Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 10:53:53 (EDT)
________________________MARK -:- Fried Prouty :-) -:- Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 12:52:42 (EDT)
__________________________JW -:- Deca and Salve Businesses -:- Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 14:07:29 (EDT)
____________________________Marianne -:- Corporate mtgs -:- Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 15:18:47 (EDT)
______________________________Mary M -:- Corporate mtgs -:- Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 16:03:43 (EDT)
________________________________JW -:- SEVA Corporation of America -:- Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 17:12:07 (EDT)
__________________________________Ben Lurking -:- SEVA Corporation - Marry Holle -:- Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 17:54:39 (EDT)
____________________________________JW -:- SEVA Corporation - Marry Holle -:- Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 18:32:27 (EDT)
______________________________________Ben Lurking -:- SEVA Corporation - Marry Holle -:- Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 19:34:15 (EDT)
__________________________________Mary M -:- SEVA Corporation of America -:- Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 18:13:05 (EDT)
____________________________________JW -:- Closely Held Corps. -:- Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 18:36:22 (EDT)
________________________________JW -:- Quantum Leasing, Inc. -:- Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 17:15:35 (EDT)
________________________________JW -:- Amtext, Inc./Text Mart -:- Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 17:20:05 (EDT)
____________________________dv -:- Deca and Salve Businesses -:- Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 20:41:26 (EDT)
______________________________JW -:- Dettmers Industries -:- Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 20:52:06 (EDT)
________________________________dv -:- Dettmers Industries -:- Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 21:08:08 (EDT)
__________________________________Mary M -:- Michael Dettmers/SEVA/AMNEX? -:- Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 21:44:55 (EDT)
____________________________________Roger E. Drek -:- Dettmers AMNEX Gylanix -:- Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 22:04:51 (EDT)
______________________crow -:- Mary M. -:- Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 19:37:52 (EDT)
________________________dv -:- Gold don't fly too well. -:- Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 20:56:16 (EDT)
__________________________crow -:- Gold don't fly too well. -:- Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 06:21:25 (EDT)

Malaysia -:- Knowledge -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 08:40:13 (EDT)
__sp -:- Knowledge -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 09:00:30 (EDT)
__Jerry -:- Knowledge -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 10:05:09 (EDT)
____Robyn -:- Jerry -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 13:01:44 (EDT)
______Jerry -:- Robyn -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 15:11:37 (EDT)
________Jerry -:- Robyn -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 15:50:41 (EDT)
__________Robyn -:- Robyn -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 16:31:28 (EDT)
__________Runamok -:- Tai Chi/ Meditation -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 17:12:05 (EDT)
____________Mickey the Pharisee -:- Tai Chi/ Meditation -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 18:34:33 (EDT)
______________Roger E. Drek -:- da Chi -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 22:03:32 (EDT)
______________Jethro -:- Tai Chi/ Meditation -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 03:15:08 (EDT)
________Liz -:- Wishful Thinking -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 18:56:41 (EDT)
__Happy -:- Knowledge -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 10:10:01 (EDT)
__nigel -:- Knowledge -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 10:12:02 (EDT)
__Jethro -:- Knowledge -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 10:45:39 (EDT)
____Mike -:- 56 lbs of gold -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 11:12:17 (EDT)
____sheindel -:- Knowledge -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 21:29:04 (EDT)
______Jethro -:- sheindel M is -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 03:19:44 (EDT)
____Traveller -:- did you know Phil Riff? (ot) -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 21:43:57 (EDT)
______Jethro -:- did you know Phil Riff? (ot) -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 03:27:38 (EDT)
__Way -:- Knowledge -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 11:29:54 (EDT)
____JW -:- Imposter -- Made Up Post -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 12:41:59 (EDT)
______Way -:- Imposter -- Made Up Post -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 14:14:46 (EDT)
________Mary M -:- Imposter -- Made Up Post -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 20:18:14 (EDT)
____CD -:- Knowledge -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 23:36:24 (EDT)
______Mike -:- Knowledge -:- Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 16:59:07 (EDT)
__Robyn -:- Knowledge -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 12:58:43 (EDT)
__Sheindel -:- Knowledge -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 21:21:39 (EDT)
____Roger E. Drek -:- Cover your butt, Sheindel -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 21:53:53 (EDT)
______sheindel -:- Cover your butt, Sheindel -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 22:03:24 (EDT)
________Roger E. Drek -:- Web Privacy tips -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 22:14:56 (EDT)
__________sheindel -:- Web Privacy tips -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 22:21:34 (EDT)
____________Roger E. Drek -:- Pervert or Adulterer -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 22:38:47 (EDT)
______________Liz -:- Pervert or Adulterer -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 22:54:57 (EDT)
____________Helen -:- Web Privacy tips -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 13:24:44 (EDT)
__________Robyn -:- Web Privacy tips -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 23:59:13 (EDT)


Date: Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 13:17:27 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: becoming an ex-premie?
Message:
I've recently received a couple of e-mails from people who have recently become ex-premies. Both people asked for advice on how to deal with the premies in the community in which they live (in one case, the person thought that the premies he knew had figured out who he was because of his posts on the forum).

I didn't have to deal with this problem when I stopped following Maharaji, because I moved away from the premie community in which I was living. But I know some of the ex-premies who post here still live in the same community in which they were premies. I'd really like to hear your stories of how you handled this situation.

Some questions that might be relevant:
What did you tell the premies that you knew (if anything?)
How did you deal with questions from premie friends and aquaintainces when you were still a 'new' ex-premie? (This can be a very difficult time for many people?)
How soon did you openly 'come out' as an ex-premie?
Were you able to stay friends with people who you were close to when you were both premies?
How did you deal with quesitons about the ex-premie site and forum? Did any of the premies that you know figure out that you were posting here? What did you do about this?

Any and all stories and help would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks,
Katie
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Date: Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 13:47:13 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: becoming an ex-premie?
Message:
Hi Katie,
My advice is to be honest and get support from those who share your views. All communities are different I know, some are kinda Nazi-like. I really do think it's important for ex-es to stand straight and tall, look premies in the eye and say, very politely of course, 'I disagree.' Stand your ground. It doesn't have to turn to into an international incident, you (the ex) can walk away if it gets ugly. But you gotta be tough. Sorry that may not be what people want to hear but it's what I got to say.

Helen
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Date: Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 13:58:19 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: becoming an ex-premie?
Message:
I think that's about it Helen. It doesn't sound too tough, to me.
My personal experience was, things had already gotten weird with
several premies here. (there aren't that many left actually)
So, I just stopped communicating. I sought support here, have made
some new friends, have discovered a lot about myself.
Some of the discoveries have been very painful. I realize I have
a long way to go, there are things that never developed in me, socially or whatever. I can't entirely place blame on M or premie life, but it didn't help!

There are withdrawals. The events were a big deal, kind of like a
religious revival, ya know? Getting to see all these people, etc. but even that was getting old.
All I know is, this is more of a process than I had originally thought it would be. Hell, even recently I have wondered if I am wrong, but only because I miss the quick 'high' and can't seem to find that in so-called real life. And it hurts.

The upside is, I am learning how to grow up, deal with my issues, finding out how many issues I have to deal with! As they say (whoever they were) you can't get out of prison til you know you are in prison.
Hiding behind M and being a premie was not helping a bit.
I guess every place is different, but I can't stand the arguments. So I don't bother.
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Date: Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 14:08:04 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: becoming an ex-premie?
Message:
I agree Selene. Well said. I miss the easy high also but I don't miss the other stuff I had to give up when I was a premie. I'm much happier now & I've heard a lot of people here say that.
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Date: Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 14:09:45 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: becoming an ex-premie?
Message:
What I meant was I don't miss the price I had to pay for that quick fix bliss--you know what I meant
Love
helen
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Date: Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 15:09:54 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: becoming an ex-premie?
Message:
What was that quick fix, I'm still trying to work it out?

I have to agree that the price to pay is way to expensive, not just in monetary terms but loosing my brain wasn't worth it!
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Date: Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 15:43:17 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: becoming an ex-premie?
Message:
Well it was a brainwashing trick--I'm not kidding. Jim gave me satsang and showed me how it worked when I first started posting here. It's just conditioning.

The brain could accept anything as the Lord/object of bliss if brainwashed long enough. A jar of mayonaisse, a mug of coffee, a donut (mmm donut).
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Date: Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 16:05:36 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: (mmmm) donuts
Message:
Helen: I got a box of donut-seeds that I can see ya. :-)
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Date: Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 09:34:29 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: it;'s your business not theirs
Message:
I don't think a person who leaves M should feel in anyway that he or she needs to let people know what has happened. A lot of the cult experience is based around a kind of total openness that precludes any kind of a life. My castle is your castle refering to the tiny closet you live in at an ashram.

If it helps you to tell premies that M is bogus and that you are happier without the burden of carrying his falsehoods, then by all means. But it ain't their business in the slightest. You do not owe the community an explanation. Tell them it's between you and M, or you and God if you prefer. It is.

This is the kind of thing where if you don't know how to keep something to yourself, but you do want to, then it's time you learned how. It's your life. It's your right. You don't owe anybody anything like this. This is how we got snagged inthe first place.

It was never anybody's business that we wanted peace on earth- and it was only a fraudulent claim that was being instituted by prying enough into our private feelings. For what reason? To fatten up the holy cow.

Don't feel obligated for a second. Leave the impression that you are with M but in a 'new phase' and smile if you want. It's nobody business what you do.

If you want to tell them you have left, then enjoy.
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Date: Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 10:42:22 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: it;'s your business not theirs
Message:
When I did visit with premies that's exactly how I felt. I had moved on and felt more comfortable in myself than I had for years in that situation. I felt completely comfortable with them until they mentioned M in that gushy, phoney, sicklysweet pathetic way. I don't think any praise of M has ever been sincere come to think of it....puke! Then I just felt sorry for them and glad I didn't have to be apart of the phoneyness any more.

The only real thing perhaps was singing the praises of feeling REALLY good inside. The mistake is that M is the connection between that feeling. That's what they have been brainwashed to believe for his selfish motives - why else would he lie about this?
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Date: Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 13:46:46 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: it;'s your business not theirs
Message:
Good on you, Run. You've said this before and it definitely bears repeating. It is nobody's damn business.
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 00:35:54 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: it;'s your business not theirs
Message:
We all need to remember this and likewise that we have a right to post anonymously here if we want to. There are things that a person posting their name and address on the forum can help to accomplish that I can't, it's true. But I really don't want to be in touch with premies on a personal level as a general rule.

All that let it all hangout tell the truth about your personal life to strangers on the street stuff belongs to the cult (or is it the 60's as well). Being honest with yourself isn't usually a question of how many people you've told personal information about yourself too. It's some kind of bastardization of the idea of repentance that makes us think that we owe the world our confession.

Because the guru is a fraud is no reason for me to start initiating greater levels of trust in communication with people I have every reason not to trust.

Talking to premies is one of the few situations in life where I would be comfortable lying (about my own beliefs, opinions or behavior in relation to M or K). But I've never actually had to and never actually will. That's because my own life (e.g., safety) comes before some asshole's fraudulent god trip or his followers beliefs.
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 01:43:34 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: it;'s your business not theirs
Message:
I agree that it is the therapized generation's attempt to be honest with itself and the idea that healing comes about through purging oneself of pent-up feelings that has brought about this need to tellall to perfect strangers on the street. This is cultural, most other cultures are not this way. When I took a lot of cross cultural trainings when I worked at the World Bank, one of the biggest things folks from other countries don't like about Americans is our phoniness. We'll hug you and act like your best friend but then not remember your name. A lot of folks do not find this very seemly at all.

A lot of folks have trouble with boundaries, not just premies. Adult Children of Alcoholics, for example. Cause growing up they had no personal boundaries. Didn't even know they had a say in the matter. I think you've brought up such a great point with this 'nobody's bizness' point. I wish I could emblazon that on my forehead actually. Thank you.
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 09:37:12 (EDT)
From: Becky
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: becoming an ex-premie?
Message:
Also there's the 'Maharaji'-speak: e.g. 'this is a process', 'dealing with issues', 'I realize I have a long way to go'. In other words, the feeling of never 'getting there'. Undo the self-brainwashing by undoing some fundamental ideas. There is no destination. You don't have a long way to go. Just focus on self-respect and you'll be fine.
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Date: Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 20:47:02 (EDT)
From: chr
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: becoming an ex-premie?
Message:
At the time that I was leaving I copped quite bit of flack. In the end I just avoided premies. Fortunately there were others who were going through some similar things who I was able to talk to. I found it best to talk to those who had been around M, as they had more understanding of the way I felt. I was also lectured by two instructors who had been close friends, and when I went to programs every now and then, I heard all sorts of rumours about me- why they bothered ,I don't know. If I did bump into a practising Premie, they would invariably say ' Where have you been?' as if I had been on another planet. Then I would get the spiel of how beautiful M is and all the incredible things he was doing etc. After a while I was classified as being in my head and premies didn't really want to know me anymore. Basically I had to start a new life. I had been very involved for about 16 years, 9 or 10 of those in the ashram and it took a while to deprogramme myself but it was also a great relief and with it came a wonderful feeling of freedom.
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Date: Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 21:11:22 (EDT)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: becoming an ex-premie?
Message:
The great thing about leaving the cult is that you don't have to spend anymore time around a group of premies.

I've told my close friends who aren't and one who is a premie and if anyone else wants to know I'll tell them I am on sabbatical leave studying what it is like to not be a 'premie'. I'll ask them if they'd like to hear about my findings. They will laugh. I'll say nothing. If I am feeling right I may tell them I hope to get something published, possibly on the web. Depends on how many concepts I think they have.

At the insane asylum do you bother to tell the inmates what day it is?
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Date: Thurs, Apr 15, 1999 at 09:01:41 (EDT)
From: Diz
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: becoming an ex-premie?
Message:
Hi Zac, Katie

'In the insane asylum, do you bother to tell the inmates what time it is?' Agree with the sentiment behind the analogy, although I think you're selling people in asylums short here. No point beating your head against a brick wall. Which is what an 'MJ can do no wrong' premie resembles.

I think the first priority, as a new ex, is to look after yourself. Which in my case definitely meant getting some distance from the conditioning I'd spent 20 years acquiring. Hey, I can tell MYSELF that I'm seeing things wrong, that I'm abandonning my one chance for truth, that I'm being negative etc. I don't need premies to reinforce those voices in me. Which some certainly took it upon themselves to do. I fucking hate people trying to save my soul!!!

So there's premies I stay well away from. In some cases, I regret having to do that, as there were aspects of our relationship which I felt had value, and were genuine. But with many premies, the MJ-think overlay was so pervasive, that it wasn't worth the risk.

Others stayed well away from me, when they figured I wasn't on the path any more. What was weird was that this happened in several cases during the years I was still trying to be a premie, but found getting to programs, and doing service difficult due to circumstances. This was one of the 'drips' for me. Actually, it was VERY painful to discover that friendships which I had valued and believed to be quite deep just counted for nothing once I wasn't around so much, and started to question aspects of premie-ville. Most of my friends WERE premies, and really, I had to start all over again and develop a circle of non-premie friends.

I do still have a couple of premie friends. These are people who have a life outside of 'programs, participation and practice.' They seem to think things like human relationships, career, family etc are important (not sure how they can maintain this attitude in the face of Mj's 'priorities' line, but they do). They read books, go to movies, and seem to find some 'soul' in the ideas in at least some of them. So we have a good range of topics for discussion. They know I'm no longer a devotee. The unspoken deal is that I don't try to convert them, and they don't try to convert me. I have said a few things to one of them, who I think does suffer from some premie concepts (I mean 'suffer' - they make her life harder). But I'm not into preaching. Also, I have told each of them a bit about how I personally was affected, and they haven't given me the standard premie rave. Both have expressed some understanding for why I feel the way I do. So I guess overall I reckon they're keeping in touch with me for friendship's sake, not just because they feel an obligation to save my soul.

Diz
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Date: Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 04:17:01 (EDT)
From: Mark Appleman
Email: Apple4256@aol.com
To: Katie
Subject: becoming an ex-premie?
Message:
First thing- LOOKING OUT FOR #1 I realized I had sort of signed my soul over
to somebody of something - and I had I had a very real emergency on my hands. Obviously one would like to clean up one's mess without public display or embarrassment, but the truth is that when the penny drops and its time to take back control of one's own life, MAKE NO COMPROMISES.you're your own Satguru now !
I had enmeshed myself with premies as a core group and an extended family for over 20 years - i worked for Amtext for a few years (i was at that party with Nimrod- Idolatry hit the nail square on the head !) lived in the Malibu area, use the premie doctor's practice,hung out with the music/media crowd. I have & had best friends, in-laws, the whole ball of wax all some degree of premie/devotee.I know half the 'vintage' list ( even Sanford Pass, who recently caused a ruckus-he's just a pussycat actually) So I felt when Katie asked the question it spoke to me.

I think the best response to the questions she poses is an individual one,tied into the question.' What was your INTENTION in getting involved ?'
And as a follow-up, 'What is your honest motivation/reason/ intention for leaving ?

I think if you are straight with yourself and clear on What you were part of , and what you joined , then procedures/strategies /and etiquettes for leaving, or moving on, will take place.

YOU HAVE LESS IMPORTANCE THAN YOU THINK.
i was enormously careful about communicating my 'awakening' to a few people who I had introduced'satsanged' and 'been there for' over the years. I felt guilty in my active involvement in
prostelitizing for what I could now see as an anti-life voodoo cult. When I finally did , I saw then each go through an almost mechanistic 'radaring' of me-and I felt that the main purpose was to see if my continued presence would disturb their experience( it really did remind me of the Borg). As at that point, I was non-confrontational, the reaction was relatively mild. I was one less person to fight over good seats. I'm sure quite a few mentally 'crossed' themselves that they avoided my fate! Anyway, this GMJ-Premie thing is very self centered , so don't worry about disturbing applecarts.
One other amazing thing- when you do leave and unhook from
the Guru thing / you see it was a oneway thing. Except for the universal Fear experience/you blew it /you're in hell now / fill in the blank( and on leaving you'll see how many remain due to the fear surrounding all this) you'll be pleasantly surprized to see that 'Program Maharaji' is just a holographic MIRAGE Y of sorts. . .

YOU HAVE MORE IMPORTANCE THAN YOU THINK
besides the 100th monkey phenomenon, of transferring new characteristics to a species( which I think this website/as free information did) in bringing down the House of Rawat
Being upfront ( yes I recommend website posting using one's name- I've gotten 30 or 40 messages/thank you's from people I knew over the years ) forces you to address the reality of your choice.
And out of cyberspace back on free land once you've 'come out ' you can almost sit back and see if you had any real contacts after all. People with one foot in/ and one foot out / will use you as a safe house to address concerns/complaints ('how can something So Big have turned into something So Small ' is my favorite.' Wow I saw the Amtext dinner SO different this time. It was like that's it guys. Get out there and make ME my money-and I'll pat you in the head again'
'well maybe he's not saving the world. But I got really high for 4 days!' ' I went to a program this time and saw it as total brainwash about Maharaji. But I still had an OK time'
Sometimes just refusing to be part of M's house of cards, helps expose your friend's/acquaintance personal house of cards. In fact, the close friends I lost were actually pissed that somehow THEIR devotional MATRIX (what a great movie!) was being violated.

Also people can see you thriving feeling more love.
not hit by lightning
(actually quite the opposite-I feel like spirit/god/ecstacy/bliss was waiting for ME to stand up on my own and be counted)

seeing that there is an alternative to Maharaji worship- will force them to reexamine their lives
the truth is that if you see yourself ex/post/graduated premie
there's no going back anyway, and its not like you have any responsibility to make your views followed by anyone else . . .

Which gets me back to- What were your Intentions going in ?

Was/is this THE ANSWER,or an Easy Listening radio station,
or an oasis of love in a work of make-believe fantasy,or the ultimate circular philosophy,or to find a perfect lover, a spiritual 'football team' that you've a fan of (during season ) ,or your tribe, or the solution to world peace,or shelter from the storm, a movement to join and play a socially redeeming, feelgood role in, or bringing light to Planet Earth, witnessing the endless lilas of the living lord, or being 'a special one'a card-carrying member of the spirituall elite, or a private XXX rated no-excuses bhakti('they'll never understand my perfect lord') cult ?

I was amazed leaving and since, to see how little unanimity there is on the above among premies, and how little anyone ever communicates their deep feelings any more. So by locating what YOUR intentions were, and communicating how they changed or weren't met ( you are leaving after all )
you have the beginnings of a basis of lucid communication with yourself and others.It may begin/spark a round of self examination on their parts as well.

Another thing I wanted to say.Its just an approach , but let's say we have an emotional,spiritual, physical, and mental body. As you move on, I tnink you'll notice that your mental and spirit might be clear, but you'll have emotional issues with yourself or people, or some combination of the above( clear emotional separation but spiritual confusion, or physical illness, etc.) and you'll notice that certain premies will show up to help clear things with you , or your contact will center around one aspect or another. As we are indeed complex and wonderful multidimensional beings who were/are living in the spiritual flatland that Mr Rawat operates
I think you'll notice that our walk into freedom will resonate with some level of Every Premie ( even Mr M, who judging from his embarassingly dishonest report of his own life on his website, would like to be an Ex Premie, on some level, as well )

Finally, certain friendships and alliances will not and cannot survive the transition. Once again what is Your intention now ?
Where are going next ?
If spiritual direction is of maximum importance to you, and you're an ex in your heart, chances are not too many of your current friends will transition.Have a heart to heart with anyone you feel YOU need to clear with( for your own sake and sanity), and move on ( I did with about 15 close people over 3 years.10 remain on speaking terms. 4or 5 close- 3 of them out of the Rawat Matrix) If the social aspect was the main thing, just announce you're not that into M anymore, lay low, and go to the gatherings,programs, or parties. Fully half my friends still in Amtext
are not Premies anymore, but they (unlike Nimrod) think its a good way to make a living. And half the PEOPLE IN THE MALIBU/Thousand Oaks/Malibu Lake AREA stay in contact for the friendships, parties , drop a few obligatory sentences about seeing Daya or a recent video, and get onto their business of blowing their beloved dope or promoting the most recent multi-level.

A final note. I think that this whole premie thing as we knew it ,
is on its way into the tar pits. WHEN MAHARAJI CREATED his WEBPAGE, AND PRESENTED THAT SANITIZED VERSION OF HIS HISTORY , I felt like an ENDPLAY of sorts had begun. Maharaji had relinquished his greatest asset -his Vagueness, and his Mystery. He, the Reluctant King, had been flushed out into the open. The corrosive/gollum-like effect of power was now there to see. Even Maharaji ( for his imagined self-preservation ) was '1984'ing his past. Right in the open , for everyone to see was Total unmitigated bullshit .Even loyal premiesI know and communicate with were shattered and ashamed at that one. Its was easier for them to defend him and diefy him when he at least had his instincts in place and kept things Vague.Now its obvious to one and all that on one level he's just doing a Clinton. And he was running for living god/master, not president, FOR GOD'S SAKE !

Hope the above can be of some help. It was for me.
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Date: Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 07:04:50 (EDT)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Mark Appleman
Subject: Great Post Mark, thanks
Message:
I've read it twice and will read it again later. Post your own name eh? That's interesting! Got to think about that.
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Date: Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 07:21:06 (EDT)
From: Diz
Email: None
To: Mark Appleman
Subject: becoming an ex-premie?
Message:
Hey Mark, what a fantastic post! Keep them coming, brother, I need more of this. Both the up-front approach, and the insights from the centre. I was never a 'core' premie. On reflection, I probably sat just about right in the spot where I didn't get to see (and thus recognise the bullshit of) the inner workings, but did have my whole life, or most of it, tied up every which way. Hearing about Malibu is MOST interesting.

Loved your list of 'intentions going in'. That's worth saving somewhere, Brian and Katie.

Diz
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Date: Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 11:14:56 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Diz
Subject: becoming an ex-premie?
Message:
Hi guys,

I got up this morning and admired a vase of beautiful white roses without feeling that I was endebted to Miragey for them. Then I had breakfast and enjoyed toast and marmalade without getting into should I meditate (sorry, practice) first or have breakfast first. To me this is freedom. I don't need to explain this to anyone especially when they don't want to listen to anyone but Miragey. This is TRUELY enjoyinglife.com!

This is getting SO interesting. I feel like I have escaped from hell. I used to feel so uncomfortable with myself and always thought it was because I didn't practice enough now I know they answer was just to LEAVE. Thanks guys!
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Date: Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 08:12:48 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: Mark Appleman
Subject: You've said it all!
Message:
Thanks Mark.

Mary M
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Date: Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 10:39:32 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: katie@ex-premie.org
To: all
Subject: Thanks! (any more stories?)
Message:
Thanks to everyone who has posted in this thread so far - I think that the insight and personal stories will be very helpful (I'd love to hear more people's replies, too). I do think that compiling the replies would be a good addition to the 'Breaking Free' page on the site, as this question is one that concerns many people who read the forum and site.
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Date: Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 14:51:39 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Mark Appleman
Subject: becoming an ex-premie?
Message:
Mark, reading your post I once again see how different it is these days to extricate yourself from the cult. For me, the cult and the ashram were one and the same, basically. I never had the experience of living any kind of a life as a premie in which I wasn't constantly immersed in practicing knowledge, premies, Maharaji and the rest. So, when I left, it was very traumatic, but it was really a clean break. Since I had no real social connections with premies outside the ashram, they didn't pull on me. And pretty quickly, I saw how hollow the entire belief system was. Than I got angry, but that was very healthy, and very motivating towards getting my life back on track.

I did lose a couple of 'friends,' but the premies I knew well were very soon ex-premies. I could talk to them freely because we knew each other very well and because I knew that they felt much the way I did. That's why we were friends. It was funny, because I very quickly got the reputation in the premie world as being a really negative and confrontational person and a couple of my friends were warned by initiators and others not to talk to me. Actually, that pretty much ensured that they did because they felt insulted at the insinuation that they couldn't think for themselves! I was very vocal to anyone who would listen, and soon they either accepted me or avoided me.

And I had a couple of relatives who were premies, but they saw through it and bailed out years before I did. So, there was a bit of a homecoming there, although I did feel guilty for getting them involved in the first place.

I really think much of the cult pull is social. We all have concerns about how we look to other people, what others think of us, whether we will be rejected by others, etc. And to this add the fear that is infused in premies by Maharaji that terrible things will happen to you if you reject him, and one tends to look for any signs of that, even though you realize intellectually it's a pile of crap.

And of course, there is the premie 'in-crowd' thing that is probably particulary thick in Malibu and at programs that is probably also particularly superficial and revolting. Who gets the good seats and the good service, who is willing to stab whom in the back to get closer to the lotus feet, who wears the best designer clothes to programs, etc. All that kind of social stuff, which isn't peculiar to premies by the way, can keep people going for years, although I found it stupid and exhausting, and I never found being around Maharaji all that great anyway. Plus, I found that premies who were often in charge of things were incompetent idiots, and I'm sure people thought the same of me. Plus, other than when he is sitting up on a throne, in my experience, Maharaji doesn't look too good up close, and so I found it easier to stay away from all that.

Frankly, I think one of the main things in getting beyond it all is to make real friends who are not premies. I credit one person in particular, who helped me deprogram myself and get out of the cult. She was just very patient with me, a real friend. She didn't judge me and my parrotting of satsang when I was doing that at the beginning, and she just demonstrated what REAL friendship is, something I hadn't experienced in the cult for a very long time. That gave me a lot of strength to look objectively at what was happening to me and to others and see how destructive it really was. I will always be grateful to her for that.

So, why did I get into it in the first place? All those reasons you mention, and probabaly some more. Why did I get out? Because none of those promises were fulfilled, I couldn't rationalize it anymore, I hated being a premie, I was miserable, I felt zippo for Maharaji other than a mild revulsion, and I saw the values I had held for many years violated over and over. Particulary the values of human respect and decency. The premie world in general, and Maharaji in particular, were so devoid of morals and integrity that I couldn't be a part of it anymore. So, I left. One day I just packed my bags from the ashram and walked away. It was really a matter of survival. Not to sound too dramatic, but to accept what was going on and rationalize it, would mean I'd really have to change my opinion of myself in a way I couldn't do. It would mean a part of me I really liked would sort of have to die, so protecting that felt like self preservation. Saying that I should just surrender wasn't enough anymore.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 15, 1999 at 01:27:17 (EDT)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: becoming an ex-premie?
Message:
What did you tell the premies that you knew (if anything?)

The last time I saw Maharaji (December 1996), I slept thru his satsang and realized that I couldn't 'get into it' anymore. But it wasn't until I found this site that I really dealt with the cult programming. I only had one close premie friend, and we had a blow-up last year. We didn't talk for a few months, but recently she called me and said she's not going to any videos anymore.

How did you deal with questions from premie friends and aquaintainces when you were still a 'new' ex-premie? (This can be a very difficult time for many people?)

N/A, except with the friend I mentioned previously. It took me a long time before I felt that I really needed to address the issue with her. It became a matter of integrity of spiritual intent, and I couldn't just hang out and pretend it didn't matter that she was still very much into M.

How soon did you openly 'come out' as an ex-premie?

I felt that I finally came out when CD (Chris) recognized me on here, and I didn't feel afraid about expressing how I feel while knowing that he knows me. I lurked for about a year before I posted. I guess I was worried that he would tell you all how fucked up I am, but shit, I've already done that myself quite well. Turns out, Chris has been a real gentleman and even when he talks premie-speak, I gotta give him credit for being tenacious and for not telling you all what a drunken wild woman I was in the past.

Were you able to stay friends with people who you were close to when you were both premies?

My relationship with my friend took a major turn when I had to tell her how I felt about M. We've been talking again recently, but our relationship is much more honest.

How did you deal with quesitons about the ex-premie site and forum? Did any of the premies that you know figure out that you were posting here? What did you do about this?

I think I already answered this. When my friend found out that I posted about our blow-up here on the forum (and got a lot of much needed support), she flipped out and left 14 poison voicemail messages on my phone at work. She felt very betrayed. I have a wicked passive/aggressive streak in me: I printed out the thread and sent it to her.

But I think she realizes now that I have been a better friend to her than M or any of the premies have been. I hope we are able to do some of the fun stuff we used to do someday because we do have a deep connection aside from M, although the reason we know each other is because of M.

Once again, I want to thank everyone here for helping me so much.
With love,
eb
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 20:28:39 (EDT)
From: sp
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: weak and ignorant, etc
Message:
Most of us admitted this out loud in K session-now that's surrender. We have spent many years reconciling that one statement. I don't know what would have happened to me if I hadn't found this forum.

Prior to 1974, i knew i was fucked up. Little did I know that this just would make things worse. I was vulnerable. This is shitheads market. What a guy!
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 15:26:23 (EDT)
From: jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: m's brain development theory
Message:
M's current brain development theory as revealed in his talk yesterday.

'What does that tiny baby want? Does it know anything? No. It doesn't even know how to say: 'Give me toys'. It doesn't even know that it is too small to speak yet. It can't pronounce vowels or consonants. It just opens its mouth every once in a while and goes: 'Waaaah...' That's all it can do... yet what does it need? It needs to feel fulfilled. It needs to feel content. And it knows that this is what it wants. That's amazing. Here is this little baby who has never read a book, never heard a lecture, never met a philosopher yet it knows all there is to know about the need to feel truly satisfied in life.

I mean, isn't that something that we are supposed to learn in our retirement, when we've been through it all and we have come towards the end of our journey? Don't you have to read books on the subject of satisfaction, don't you have to do research into the true nature of fulfilment? Don't you have to go looking all over the place for the source of contentment? Don't you have to go climb mountains and undertake great quests?

So how does this baby do it? How does it know to seek satisfaction and how does it know to recognise it when it finds it?

Because we're talking here about a natural predisposition. One that stays with us all through our lives. And it remains just as important, just as essential, no matter how many other things we become aware of or how many responsibilities are being handed to us.

Isn't there a part in your heart that just wants to be content?'
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 15:33:42 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: jim
Subject: m's brain development theory
Message:
I'll tell you right now babies are not content--they are DRIVEN to learn and those zillions of neurotransmitters are designed to make make connections faster than a speeding bullet.That is the baby's job. Now they are very cute when they ARE content (sleeping, sucking at breast or bottle) but the rest of the time it is all drive drive drive. That's why they are so exhausting
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 15:44:39 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Maharaji's a simpleton
Message:
Obviously, during the critical period in life Maharaji's brain failed to develop and that's the reason he says things like that.

Contentment to Maharaji is sitting on his golden potty and his sicko carrot on a stick philosophy ensures that premies will never be content unless they surrender more and more and give more and more to him.
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 18:37:24 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: Maharaji is a moron!
Message:


So how does this baby do it? How does it know to seek satisfaction and how does it know to recognise it when it finds it?

Because we're talking here about a natural predisposition. One that stays with us all through our lives. And it remains just as important, just as essential, no matter how many other things we become aware of or how many responsibilities are being handed to us.

Isn't there a part in your heart that just wants to be content?'


And he's getting worse as time passes. I'm sure he used to be more guarded about coming out with idotic pronoucements that people might pull him up on (or am I flattering myself to escape the inevitable conclusion that I too used to hear wisdom in the words of an incoherent nonentity, incapable of rational thought?)

Nobody (I hope) needs me or anyone else to spell out the reasons why this waffle is utter mind-wank. (Though Helen - Hi Helen! - has summed up pretty well one major weakness..)

Maharaji has shit for brains.

CD, what's your take on this? Are you pleased and delighted to hear your master talk this way? Are you going to quote him?
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 19:59:05 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: ah
Message:
>CD, what's your take on this?

Even educated people enjoy a hug and can cry.
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 20:49:13 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: ah
Message:
Even educated people enjoy a hug and can cry.

That's not what Maharaji said, CD. He said dumb shit like this:

Here is this little baby who has never read a book, never heard a lecture, never met a philosopher yet it knows all there is to know about the need to feel truly satisfied in life.

Yeah, just change my diapers, mommy, and everything will be alright. For now, at least. I'll bug you later when I'm bothered by something else.

What kills me about M is how he expects us to ooh and aah his 'brilliant' insights as if he's the only guy who's got ideas about things. Well, he's got ideas alright, but those and 50 cents will buy him a cup of coffee, the same as anybody else. They're not anything special. In fact, they're pretty dumb, like this next one:

So how does this baby do it? How does it know to seek satisfaction and how does it know to recognise it when it finds it?

Duh, maybe when it's been fed, is warm, has dry diapers, and been cuddled some? Hmmm.... just how does this baby know? Hmmm... ya got me.

Unbelievable. THINK about the things M, says, CD. If you and he we're just hanging out on a street corner together, just friends talking about this and that you'd laugh at him and tell him what a dumb fuck he is for speaking like this. But since he's the 'perfect master', there's got to be some kind of profound wisdom in what he says, right? It's a con game, CD. He's conning you and you're playing right into his hands.
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 21:52:41 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jerry/Nigel/Drek/CD
Subject: Failure to thrive
Message:
A baby's nervous system is so complex. If Maharaji would really like to inspire some kind of awe, he'd do better to describe the incredibly complex process whereby a baby matures, learns, and attaches (all are inter-related). Human attachment is where the baby finds contentment, maybe M should be talking about that if he really wants to do some service. Otherwise he is just idealizing babies like they are some kind of self-sufficient realized souls 'content from within'. At birth it takes very little to upset them because their nervous systems are not organized at birth (this is why they cry so much) -- Their nervous system becomes organized (and content) through the reassurance and constant nurturing they get from the OUTSIDE. Without it, they fail to thrive. M is talking garbage here.
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 22:42:20 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Failure to thrive
Message:
Yes, Helen, I've done some reading on this. The development of a baby's brain is dependent almost entirely on the environment it's in. The brain builds itself according to the outside stimuli it encounters. Depending on what that stimuli is, a brain will either flourish or retard.

Maharaji has no idea what he's saying here. He's suggesting that its later in life when people become unhappy because of all their adult concerns when in reality, how much TLC we get as babies is largely going to determine how happy we will be as adults. As always, M's 'perfect master' status has given him license to talk whatever shit he wants to and those afraid to challenge him on it will seek a wisdom in his words that doesn't exist.
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Date: Sun, Apr 11, 1999 at 00:46:19 (EDT)
From: sp
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Failure to thrive
Message:
yes he does know -he knows his market
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Date: Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 09:04:00 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Correcting myself
Message:
Maharaji has no idea what he's saying here. He's suggesting that its later in life when people become unhappy because of all their adult concerns when in reality, how much TLC we get as babies is largely going to determine how happy we will be as adults.

Actually, M isn't saying this, so I want to correct myself before a premie does (as if one's going to. That would require more thought than I think premies give to what Maharaji says). What M is saying is how amazing it is that a baby can be satisfied without first reading what satisfaction is. Yeah, fucking incredible (that he would say something like that).

What I'm doing is going off on a tangent about how the 'wise' contend that babise are, as Helen says, self contained realized souls and it isn't until we become adults that we forget 'that place' that we lived and breathed in when we were infants. Anybody who's done any reading on this subject would know that this is highly unlikely. Scientists are beginning to think that babies don't even have consciousness at birth and won't for sometime afterward until those parts of the brain necessary for consciouness develop. As a matter of fact, studies I've read about have shown that certain parts of the brain are still undeveloped as late as seven years old.

So this theory that we have to get back to that place that we were in when we were infants is nonsense. We CAN'T get back to that place. Our brains have developed into adults. The world an infant lives in is entirely the result of the LACK of development in their brains. Infants will, in time, catch up to an adult's consciousness, but we can never recapture an infant's 'consciousness' anymore than we can fit into our first set of clothes.
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Date: Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 09:55:49 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Correcting myself
Message:
Hey Jerry it's great to hear your comments on infant brain development. This is a hot topic among child development folks and parent educators and everyone is very excited about it

I think that babies do inspire a lot of lovely feelings when they sleep contentedly in our arms, or when they are 'passed out' drunk on mother's milk. They are lovely. But they are extremely vulnerable and totally dependent on adults to protect them and move them through that passage of vulnerability. We are just learning about infant brain development through brain scans, etc. It's a new field. Scientists can see areas of the brain light up when a baby is talked to for example, or when a baby sees something stimulating. And we know that cortisol levels (that's the stress hormone) go down when a baby is held and comforted. And that growth hormones are stimulated by skin to skin touch; neonatal intensive care units in many hospitals recommend 'kangarooing'--holding premature infants skin to skin (bare skin touching) to stimulate their growth hormones.

To me the dance between infant and parents is the awesome thing, not this idea that infants are self-realized and in 'holy name' all the time. The mother and infant are kind of one organism even after birth--that's what ayurvedic medicine says and to some extent I believe that. M's philosophy once again is so lacking in the practical magic that is all around us, in the beautiful dance of human relationships. I guess in M's world, human relationships is not the focus for obvious reasons.
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Date: Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 14:16:35 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Once again, on the head!
Message:
Jerry: Absolutely. I can say this as a parent, not a scientist. If anyone doubts it, then why is it that an ape will do the same thing that a baby does when it wasn't 'held' enough, to wit: Side-to-side rocking coupled with heavy thumb sucking. Their brains are looking for STIMULATION! That rocking motion actually produces chemicals within the brain that have alot to do with development.

Why do musicians tend to have musically talented kids? No surprise here.... That is the stimulation the the child received, so that's the part of the brain that develops.... DUH! I know that's a bit of a generalization, but it does really work that way, to a large degree.

My kid has some hand/eye coordination issues, so we concentrated on visual arts while she was young. She is beginning to show signs of REAL talent there, in addition to music. Seeing as this was something that we 'concentrated' upon, it's no surprise to me that this part of her brain is becomming rapidly developed.... DUH!
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Date: Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 11:59:07 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Failure to thrive
Message:
Hi Helen,

I worked with failure to thrive babies once, cuddling them and giving them lots of attention to help them thrive again.

Miragey is right about babies wanting to be content - we all know that's what we all want, it's so obvious it's ridiculous that premies ooh ahh over it.

What is so sad is that what M gives as the solution to the problem actually prevents prevents premies from thriving as far as I can observe. It makes neurotics even more neurotic.

The lack of any REAL communication can be nothing but damaging.
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Date: Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 14:06:15 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: ah
Message:
Jerry: Man, you are funny.... :-) ANYONE and I mean ANYONE that has raised a child 'understands' the simple fact that the babies arse gets chapped when it is wet too long or has that smelly stuff in it. I can't believe that M tries (in vain) to equate this to some innate desire for some nebulous 'satisfaction.' It's really simple, it HURTS when you are hungry and it HURTS when your arse is chapped.... BIG MYSTERY HERE! NOT!

Jeeeez, even very young apes want a cuddling. For all the non-thinking premies out there, it's called a 'feeling' of PROTECTION. Babies (of most primate species) have the built-in wiring that tells them that they need protection.....DUH!

M really is a moron.... I can't believe that I fell for this nonsense for so long.
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Date: Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 14:13:09 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: ah
Message:
As Little Yiddish Grandma says 'you mean you need a PHD to figure out a baby needs love?'
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Date: Sun, Apr 11, 1999 at 02:58:44 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: CD
Subject: divide 6000 by Saturday...
Message:
CD, what's your take on this?

Even educated people enjoy a hug and can cry

So when did Maharaji ever recommend hugging? (It would probably have done a lot of premies a whole lot of good if he had...)

Your reply doesn't make Margie's 'teaching' any less stupid. It just sounds like you take after him somewhat in finding spurious connections between unrelated phenomena.
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 14:57:55 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Check this out - CD!!!!
Message:
Yesterday, for the hell of it, I checked out CD's premie page. There, I found this post from Steven. It's pretty funny, so I'll show you the whole thing:

'We all have stuff.

That needs dealing with before we can get down to the nitty gritty. It is difficult for me to be honest with you and etc. because of the twisting and turning of sentences to be turned against the one that says them.

Bill Patterson/Jim Hession/ The other instructors needed a rest. That is why they are not doing that work anymore. Like any SKILL a person has to stay concentrated. Like driving a car or motorcycle if your on the phone and doing it. How can you drive like one really should? If your thoughts are all over the place ,when they should be on the road. This is the situation with the above people. Maharaji is the BOSS of HIS WORK.
If a person is to HELP HIM in the way these people were then they have to keep their eyes on the road.

What is DEVOTION? Who and WHAT are you devoting to?

This is a path of (self) realization( not) GROUP realization. First priority for a premie is to practice this knowledge every day( if able to). For the time specified by the Master.

You are not going to get a medal for this. You as a living breathing being need to give yourself TLC. This is the Master's ball game . He is the coach! This is His play he is the DIRECTOR.

If you want to play on his team then you listen to the coach . If you want to be a part of his play but you do not want to listen to the DIRECTOR . Then what? Robert De Niro/ Harrison Ford/ all listen to their directors because they trust the director to bring THE BEST OUT OF THEM so it will be a nice film.

So what about the common bond? Why do you ask? Do you not feel some connection with all life?
The Hopi Indian feel that even rocks are alive?

You are very fortunate to have all your physical apperatice. What about the person who can not move at all? Do you think that person is incapable of practicing this knowledge?

If so you are so mistaken.

It has nothing to do with the( four you know whats). It all has to do with SURRENDER.

Sincerely
Steven'

(my emphasis)

Anyway, referring to the part I highlighted, I replied by asking Steven a simple question, how it was he knew that the instructors were 'tired' and that that's why they were 'put out to pasture'.

Chris removed my post. Too much, eh?
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 15:52:53 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Master's ball game (gross!)
Message:
Yeah, it's the Master's ball game alright. This statement makes perfect sense when you consider that ball is a slang term for fuck.

Goddamn, that satsang stuff is so fucked up. I can't believe that I used to swallow it. Just goes to show that you've got your swallowers and your non-swallowers and you got the Master doing the spewing.
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 20:03:33 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Chris' little teddybear picnic
Message:
So I posted a question to CD on his page asking why he'd eliminated my first post (the one in which I asked Steven how he knew that M fired the instructors just because they were 'tired'). So what does Chris do? He eliminates that post too!
Naturally, I posted again -- polite as always -- asking him why he cancelled thatpost. Naturally, he'll get rid of that one too.

Poor Chris. He just wants a nice safe place whee people can pretend to talk to one another. It doesn't matter if what they're saying is outrageously false. Just so long as it's pro-M and, well, nice. Gotta be nice.

Well, Chris, there wasn't anything UN-nice about my question. I aksed it simply and politely. Why did you cancel it? Are you auditioning for a spot on ELK?
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 20:43:44 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: This time he answered
Message:
[CD answered my post this time. Here's my post to him, his answer and my follow-up.]

Jim: Are you actually saying that on your forum it's okay to say whatever nonsense one can come up with regarding Maharaji (so long as it's favorable) but that no one can challenge or even question those claims?

Chris: This place will not become a dumping ground for the endless words of hypothetical debates and personal arguments. If you want to make a statement fine. You should have a few positive things in your life to share by now. If you don't have anything good to say, then be the pesky mosquito somewhere else. It is no secret on the Internet that you relish the role of a spoiler. I expect better from you.

Jim: You might call me a 'pesky mosquito' or 'spoiler' but really, Chris, did you know that all the instructors were fired because they were tired? Is that how you heard it? Cause that's sure how Steven reported it. If that's not your uderstanding, wouldn't you like to know why he said it too? Why are you so intent on eliminating a perfectly reasonable question?
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Date: Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 21:24:32 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You guys have to see this
Message:
Really, it's so funny what's going on over there. Steven refuses to answer my question -- how it is he knows Maharaji retired the instructors because they were 'tired' -- and is screaming all sorts of allegations of abuse. Chris is telling him that I am not to be engaged in discussion by any means whatsoever but that he just can't kick me off his page yet because I haven't quite committed the right offence. Something like that. Please, take a look. It's really that funny.
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Date: Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 01:41:02 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: nah, I won't say that
Message:
I was gonna say something about shp, but I won't do that.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 15, 1999 at 00:37:35 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: This time he answered
Message:
This one made me chuckle:

'It is no secret on the Internet that you relish the role of a spoiler.'

I guess the millions of Internet surfers know to avoid you now, Jim.

What's that address in case I need another laugh?
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Date: Thurs, Apr 15, 1999 at 11:13:37 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Juicy example of something
Message:
http://www.paradise-web.com/plus_le/plus.mirage?who=premieforum

That's the address, Veep. And yes, it's nice, light entertainment.
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 14:55:20 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Maharaji - Private Investor
Message:
All of the information that Mary M. is providing seems to be the tip of the iceberg of the corporate shell game that Maharaji/Elan Vital is playing. I imagine that each of these documents may point to additional documents that are filed with additional details that we need to request from the appropriate state agencies. No doubt that there is much work left to do.

However, the simple question to ask how is Maharaji involved and by what virtue is he involved? We know because Maharaji has proudly tells us that when he first came to the West in 1971 that it was a shoestring operation that didn't have a dime. And now he is a successful private investor and he and his cronies have been enriched beyond their wildest dreams.

And at this point we can see that are not dealing with amateurs. Robert A. Jacobs and Milbank, Tweed, Hadley & McCloy is serious big time stuff. And you've got the Onae Foundation and Dettmers' Swiss Foundation. Are they one and the same?

Maharaji refers to himself as a successful private investor as if he has knowledge, skills, and extraordinary abilities in this field. But, what is it really? Could Maharaji be a complete and total fraud, a con man selling a scam that generates cash flow from the efforts and donations of his brainwashed zombie followers?

Part of the cult was and still might be the creation and worship of mortal heroes and those heroes would travel around and speak. I always wondered how these people could do this. Were they just rich people with trust funds or something? No, probably not. They appear to be cronies of Maharaji who benefited from the scam. And I gotta tell ya that whenever I got close to the front rows where all the PAMs sat at major events I always got the strangest and most sinister feeling.

Basically, there is something really stinky here, don't ya think?
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 15:26:24 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: Web search engines HotBot
Message:
If anyone is interested in searching the web I would suggest HotBot because it is a full text search engine. Some of the engines search only special meta tags and not the entire text.
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Date: Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 16:03:22 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: Web search engines Excite
Message:
www.excite.com is not too bad either for full text searches.

Also, you can get different results from the different search engines. There is also a meta-searcher or two that search via searching search engines. However, sometimes it just too much data.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 23:16:48 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: How much mind's okay?
Message:
Everytime one of these premies mentions how the secret of life lies in sidestepping the mind, I'm left wondering how much mind's okay. Obviously, we can't function brain-dead. Not that many of us didn't try like hell, in many cases for years, to find a workaround for the thought process. Part of cult life, at least back in the old days, seemed purposely designed to free one from the need to think about anything. There were whole blocks of time in an ashram premie's life where one was called upon to think nothing at all. Those were the times we felt we were really coming closer to finding our internal autopilot. Remember how we thought that Maharaji'd found his? That's how he was always 'in the infinite place'. We even had a name for that mythical yet highly sought state. We called it 'realizing knowledge'.

So now when premies come on with this no mind thing I wonder how much thinking they think's okay. In other words is there a single thought, a single memory, a single question, a single logical point, that isn't verbotten? And if so, where do the 'good thoughts' start and the 'bad ones' begin?

Gotta go.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 23:32:12 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: How much mind's okay?
Message:
How much mind is okay? This much:

1. It is okay to think about Maharaji, as long as the thoughts are positive, sappy and flattering -- towards Maharaji;

2. You can think the absolute minimum to function in the world, have a job and make money, but only to support yourself and to send money to Maharaji. And you must always feel guilty about thinking about anything other than Maharaji. It means you have forgotten to remember and are listening to that mind instead of that heart. This is the central problem for any premie. They always forget. Why one always forgets something that is so supremely beautiful, fulfilling and pleasurable is never explained, but it is assumed your mind is out to get you and to make you feel like shit. That is it's job. Why all this is the case, and why god made things so fucked up, is also never explained.

3. Any other thinking is a waste of time and detrimental because it takes you away from that place, that joy, that peace, that love, that self, that heart, that gift, that breath, that truth,
life.

Very simple, Jim.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 23:59:13 (EDT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: thinking quotes from him
Message:
'one thought can kill you'
'one thought is to many'
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 00:37:10 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: My thinking quote - lame ;-o
Message:
'I'd rather have a bottle in front of me
than a frontal lobotomy'

Hmmm.... maybe we should advertise a special on 'Frontal Lobotomies' at programs. Lobotomized Premies would never need to fret about Mister Mind at all.
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 19:40:30 (EDT)
From: sp
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: My thinking quote - lame ;-o
Message:
Thanks for your efforts this week. Once again i realize my secret thoughts were the thoughts of many. however, the structure is so brilliantly run, any question made out loud is just Mr. Mind(i had forgotten about him).

Do you remember a miami satsang from shithead-dressed in white suit-after darshan--THE GREAT MAGICIAN? The boy is slick!
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 22:15:18 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: How much mind's okay?
Message:
Jim,

I don't think Maharaji is as anti-mind as he once was. He still advocates that it is the heart that knows the truth, but I remember him distinctly, and I quote him, say, 'I like to think', (don't everybody laugh), after which he paused as if he was trying to make an impression that thinking is OK. I can't remember exactly when I heard him say this, sometime within the last 10 years, I guess, but it left a distinct impression that he was trying to tell me that thinking is good, just so long as you understand that its the heart that really 'knows'. He's yet to advocate that the mind is capable of solving any of life's great mysteries. To do that would completely blow the lid off his cover.

What's he going to do when current scientific theories discover more empirical evidence that consciousness is dependent upon healthy brain matter as are our feelings which, as far as I'm concerned, its been proven beyond a doubt that feelings are physiological responses to stimuli. And if that part of the brain, called the amygdala (sp), which causes those physiological responses is damaged, you won't feel a thing. So how's M's philosophy that its the 'heart' which feels going to stand up to gathering evidence that without the brain there wouldn't even be a 'heart', or 'mind', or consciousness even? He's going to look like he doesn't even know what he's talking about, which of course, he doesn't.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 21:54:17 (EDT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: Two new Journeys entries
Message:
There are new entries to read, folks.

Both JHB's and Gregg's will hit you like 'cartoon frying pans'.
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 13:44:14 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Two new Journeys entries
Message:
John and Gregg
Thanks for your well-written thoughtful journeys. John it strikes me that you've had a hell of a lot of loss in your life. I have had similar wonderings regarding whether knowledge and M actually saved me from a worse fate during my confused aimless 20's.
Gregg, I lived in Grand Rapids, also. It is fun to finally see GR mentioned a few times in the last couple of weeks. Glad you were hit by that frying pan and realized you could walk away from it all
Peace
Helen
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Date: Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 22:19:56 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Both excellent
Message:
Even though I don't go with some of the spirituality expressed in one (can't remember which. It's been a few days since I read them.) But they're both really well-said and considered. Thanks guys.
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 21:16:04 (EDT)
From: crow
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I agree-thanks guys(nt)
Message:
errgom
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 19:10:35 (EDT)
From: TJ
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Rhino Copy
Message:
Sorry that I didn't respond sooner, I didn't realize that the
info would be available on the net, I found it at
http://www.tourolaw.edu/2ndCircuit/November96/96-1053.html,
anyway I know that at least one of the principals, Tom Becker, was a premie and that there were quite a few premies who invested.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 21:39:25 (EDT)
From: Roger Drek
Email: None
To: TJ
Subject: Rhino Copy
Message:
John Frank Rodgers
Randy T. Hilgert
Thomas J. Becker
...initiated and participated in a fraudulent sale-leaseback scheme involving refurbished Xerox copiers. As part of the scheme, Becker sold copiers through Becker Associates, a brokerage firm owned by Lila, Inc

I should probably cross reference these names with existing documents. Also, Lila, Inc. wonder about that...
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 17:44:33 (EDT)
From: TJ
Email: None
To: Roger Drek
Subject: Lila, Inc
Message:
Plaintiffs have sued several individuals and entities, alleging that defendants participated in a scheme to defraud them. The complaint alleges that the defendants were involved in a pyramid scheme and conspiracy carried out under the guise of a commercial photocopying business known as Lila, Inc. ('LILA'). Working through LILA, defendants Thomas J. Becker, John Frank Rodgers, Randy T. Hilgert, and others allegedly fraudulently induced approximately one hundred leasing companies and financial institutions, including plaintiffs, to advance more than $37 million for the purchase of photocopiers that did not actually exist. Financing for these 'phantom' photocopiers was obtained by switching serial number plates on copiers previously purchased or leased by LILA and financed by other leasing companies and financial institutions.
In December 1990, the FBI uncovered the pyramid scheme and conspiracy ('the LILA scam'). The FBI determined that the LILA scam had been in effect since at least February of 1988. In January, 1991, defendants Becker, Rodgers, and Hilgert were indicted under 18 U.S.C. 371 (conspiracy), 1341 (mail fraud), 1343 (wire fraud), and 1956 (money laundering) for their roles in the LILA scam. They later pled guilty to charges of conspiracy and money laundering. See Affidavit of FBI Special Agent Marilyn Lucht.
Plaintiffs filed the instant civil action, alleging that defendants violated the Racketeering Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act ('RICO'), 18 U.S.C. 1961 et seq. Plaintiffs allege that defendant DiMarco, who is a Certified Public Accountant, participated in the LILA scam by preparing false financial statements for LILA which were disseminated to at least one financier, Banc One, in October 1990, thereby aiding the principals of LILA in consummating new loans for phantom copiers and in discouraging other financiers from taking action to secure repayment of loans previously made to LILA. These actions by DiMarco allegedly allowed the LILA principals to hide their scheme and keep the scheme from being discovered by plaintiffs and other defrauded financiers. See Complaint 2, 16, 17, 19-21, 179-181, 182(c)(49)-(50), 184(a)-(c), 185-195, 223-242.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 17:57:57 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: tall tale or true: you decide
Message:
Blame it on the neurontin (the painkiller medication my rhuemotologist put me on), but I just remembered something.

When I was Guru shopping (yes, guru shopping, I know it's embarrasing) one of the biggest things that swayed me to become an aspirant of Guru M, was a story some bongo told me. She said that Swami Satchitananda had said that 'If you want to get across the desert of Maya I can take you on a jeep, but Guru M will take you in a Concord.'

And I, like a damn knucklehead, surrendered the reins of my life based on a dumb anecdote that may just be another tall tale. Anyone here ever hear that tale? ANother bongo told me that when you die you go down the darshan tunnel. Please God no!!
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 18:02:20 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: tall tale or true: you decide
Message:
Helen: That saying definitely rang a bell. I, like you, can't remember who said it, though. Damn, I should have paid attention.... I like jeeps better than concords! ;-)
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 18:22:20 (EDT)
From: dv
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: tall tale or true: you decide
Message:
Yes, that was a supposed quote from the g, part of the collective.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 19:17:52 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: tall tale or true: you decide
Message:
ANother bongo told me that when you die you go down the darshan
tunnel. Please God no!!


Actually, Helen, this is true. One SLIDES down the tunnel on the grease from from Maharaji's hair.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 19:30:32 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: tall tale or true: you decide
Message:
JW: AND he peeks out a little window and laughs at you (when you are approaching the end of the tunnel).....he he he :-)
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 20:52:35 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: tall tale or true: you decide
Message:
I first heard about Maharaji in 1971, but had the sense to get into TM first. Anyway, in spring of 1973 (6 months before I got K) I was at a TM retreat and the hushed words were that Maharaji offered instant Cosmic Consciousness, but it was temporary.

As for the Concorde isn't it all over for that? Apparently, it's not profitable at all or ridership is way down.

Finally, on the Tunnel of Death and the light. I've heard Art Bell say a number of times that some guest told him that you are offered a choice between the light and the darkness and the light is a trick. Art says that he wishes the guest had never told him this.

I think I'm going for the dark as it may be more restful than hanging out under some freaking bright light and nowhere to go all day.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 23:55:43 (EDT)
From: crow
Email: None
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: here is the earlier version
Message:
swami sat chit ananda was asked by a premie about rawat.
he said, 'my path, (or what I teach-or, similar)-is a backpack
in the woods, rawat's path is a 4 lane highway.'

A courteous comment perhaps.
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 00:02:28 (EDT)
From: gerry the terrible
Email: None
To: crow
Subject: highway to hell
Message:
rawat's path is a 4 lane highway.'

Swami Satchitananda was right. Funny, I had a poster (my brother got it somewhere) of SS on my bedroom wall throughout most of high school years...
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 00:18:38 (EDT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: gerry the terrible
Subject: highway to hell-right
Message:
the swami had his followers 'ommmm'ing at woodstock festival.
They sat onstage and started the festival by thier ommmm's.

Carly Simon gave him a couple hundred acres in connecticut
in the seventies. He sold it after a few years.
I suspect that he is dead by now.
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 03:09:01 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: highway to hell-right
Message:
I don't think he is dead. A few years ago aI studied with one of his devotees(?..not sure of that is the right word). He lives a place called Yogaville(I kidf you not) in the USA.
Also there was porogram on TV here in the UK about hin and Yogaville some years ago. He did look somewhat older than in Woodstock.
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 13:56:21 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: highway to hell-right
Message:
Yogaville is in Virginia near my sister's farm. She visited one time and wondered why he (swami s) got to eat his meals up the hill in his mansion while his devotees ate in a separate place. She had the drip drip and that was it for gurus for her.
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 13:31:17 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: highway to hell-right
Message:
YogaVille
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 14:03:32 (EDT)
From: sp
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: highway to hell-right
Message:
Now that's what a guru should look like!!
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Date: Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 13:30:39 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: sp
Subject: highway to hell-right
Message:
Dear sp,

That's too funny!
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 16:50:45 (EDT)
From: dvd
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: thanks CD
Message:
That was an interesting tour.
They are putting all his talks on line.
Not yet.
'except for one miniscule exception, the entire population of the world consists of others.'
That was not one of his, but it was professor flapdoodle
from the web site. He is the resident comedian.
Nice to have one.
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 14:44:51 (EDT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: hell or heaven right here
Message:
I remember the swami blessing the crowd at Woodstock.
Worked for me.
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 16:33:36 (EDT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: hell or heaven right here
Message:
How did you like that first night?
Did you stay for saturday?
What bands did you go for on Friday?
Were you one of the typical guys who came unprepared?
Figureing like me and my 5 friends that somehow 'mom'
would take care of the eating and sleeping arrangements.
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 17:10:41 (EDT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: Woodstock - ot
Message:
Yeah Bill, I came up with nothing but a sleeping bag and maybe a change of clothes on Wednesday with my friend Richard in another friend's Volvo. Total vagabond.

Camped in the woods and got rained out. Started doing acid.
Sat in the fields for some bands Friday. Got stoned in small groups.

Saturday did more acid, then stayed up all night for the supergroup lineup Credence - Joplin - The Who - Airplane in the morning. Had some epiphanies sitting on the top of a pickup truck on the road that ran just behind the stage. Lots of interesting folks.

Sunday I went for the big psychedelic connection. I walked into the hog farm woods with paths marked 'Groovy Way' and 'Highway'. Pranksters were there. I did everything I could get my hands on - tabs of assorted colors, swirled bottles of green and brown acid in wine. THC. Hash, opium, pot. Chunks of mescaline with psylocin powder. I tripped out into multiple dimensions and was in here/now ecstasy with orgasms in every cell of my body for hours straight.

That evening I just went to sleep and didn't get up when my friend asked if I wanted to see Hendrix play. Too bad I missed that. Woodstock for me was a landmark unforgettable event.

I've spent a lot of years trying to understand the relations of those kinds of highs I experienced at Woodstock and these kinds of 'realities' we frequent in our culture. My NDE happened a couple months later in early October. That was a totally other experience and full of meaning that continues through today.
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Date: Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 15:00:06 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: medium rare
Message:
Roger: I agree, make mine a dark night with lots of stars, nebulas, galaxies and, of course, some 'dust lanes' thrown in for good measure! ;-)
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 02:59:06 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: tall tale or true: you decide
Message:
Hi Helen, It wasn't the pills,I heard almost the same story about swami satchitanand.
Someone asked swami s, 'Wgat is the difference between you and GMJ?'
to which he answered, 'It's the same journey except that I take you on a jeep and GMJ takles you on a concord'.

The darshan tunel bit is a ripoff fron 'the tunnel of light' many people who have had NDEs report.

Helen all cult-groups have these 'comfort stories' and indulge in 'divine deception'.

Loce fron Jethro
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 03:19:32 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: tall tale or true: you decide
Message:
Confirm, but I heard it as a mercedes or rolls or something like that, not a concord.

Satchmo is still kicking and doing his infamous pretzel imitation.

It still doesn't mean it's true because it circulated premiedom.
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 03:23:22 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: tall tale or true: you decide
Message:
'It still doesn't mean it's true because it circulated premiedom.'

I agree, there were all sorts of stories about other 'masters' around at the time.
When I was in malaysia doing propagation I met many premies who were devotees of sai baba, they told me that when they went to sai to ask him to show them god he said 'Go to balyogeshwar, he does that'.
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 13:56:24 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: tall tale or true: you decide
Message:
It's also true that even when these guys are decent people (and I like Swami Satchitananda, or at least would like to think the guy does an honest days work twisting himself into a pretzel) doesn't mean they don't play politics or make a mistake.

Satchitananda (the swami, not the movie) always had the exercise orientation, doing hatha yoga. He teaches other stuff but the main emphasis was the nuts and bolts, no shortcut kinda thing. I have more respect for that than M. No pie-in-the-sky avataric bhakti bs. But he still might have been wrong or kissing Rawatt's butt.

But if Sai Baba said it, I'll assume it's wrong.
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 14:04:01 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: tall tale or true: you decide
Message:
This reminds me of what Gregg said in his journey story about Guru M being to spirituality what Liberace is to serious music. I have to say I agree with you. Perhaps the jeep through the desert is more difficult but more realistic (although I would not devote myself to a guru ever again.) M was kind of the instant gratification guru--no work required (supposedly)
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 14:24:48 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: evry one on this thread
Subject: tall tale or true: you decide
Message:
I'm glad I wasn't the only one who heard this tale. Isn't it funny how a silly story could change the course of one's life? Of course why would Swami S be touting the virtues of another Guru? Or is there some kind of good ol' boy network among gurus? Or why wouldn't Swami S. be warning others against Gurus who make it all sound too easy? If I were a serious guru (what a thought) that's what I would be doing. Who knows.

I just don't like the idea of gurus anymore, period. I think I've told you all I followed a swami before I followed Guru M. In retrospect I had no business following the swami, his was a serious serious path. All very 'you must be pure and god sees your every thought' very very serious. I just couldn't handle it. Never being good enough in guru or God's eyes--it's exhausting. My swami blasted me at one point during a satsang and basically ripped my head off, I was not strong enough to take it, and I left. So what did I do once I had recovered from that experience? Walked willingly, willfully into Guru M's path. Aided by the tall tale that Guru M was the easy quick Guru.

I now think that there is a daddy connection here. That seems pretty obvious to me now and others here have written about that.
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 14:31:00 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: tall tale or true: you decide
Message:
'But if Sai Baba said it, I'll assume it's wrong'
I doubt that he did say it. Just a devotee who is permitted to lie for the sake of truth(ie divine deception).
I have a bunch of these stories from all sorts of devotee types....and considering I was one once I know how they justify to themselves the made-up stories.

Ever hear the story about a guy coming down a mountains with 2 tablets......oops I'd better stop there.

Regards jethro
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Date: Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 13:51:26 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: tall tale or true: you decide
Message:
Reminds me of a time many years ago when I took a Scientologist to hear satsang from Saph. He came to the conclusion that Scientology was a stair-case and DLM was a magic carpet ride. I can hear the sitars playing as we speak. I've always remembered this for some reason.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 14:12:13 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Onae ????
Message:
Hello All,

I'm stumped on this ONAE Trust and need everyones help.

The only reference I'm finding is to a bizarre web game in which ONAE is one of the planets. www.abraxas.scene.com

Although, the players guide book certainly looks like a Dettmer, Nathan, Rawat and friends Manual for Success!

;-)
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 15:02:09 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: Onae -- also Jacobs
Message:
Onae is the Trust that owns Prem Mark, right? And Jacobs, a partner in the law firm of Milbank, Tweed, is the Trustee, right?

Does Onae appear in any of the corporate documents of any of the other entities?

Have you looked at Yerba Buena Botanicals?
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 17:00:03 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Onae -- also Jacobs
Message:
JW,

Yes, Onae is the trust that owned Prem Mark as stated in the SEC document submitted by United Natural Foods (extensive history on Prem Mark & Rainbow was included)

Jacob the Milbank lawyer is shown as Onae's trustee in a document submitted to the SEC when DELTEK went public.

I haven't really looked for Yerba Buena Botanicals yet. I should have more info soon.

Mare
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 17:25:08 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Onae ????
Message:
Oops. Wrong URL in previous address:

HTTP://ABRAXAS.SCENE.COM

I've concluded that we were all being mind-focked by a bunch of hooligans playing this game;-)

Let's join and bomb the planet ONAE!!!
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 18:31:44 (EDT)
From: dv
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: Onae ????
Message:
Do we get our own ship? There better not be any guruus on it. Ahh, they're on Onae?
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 20:28:40 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: Onae ???? Off-Color
Message:
Hey dv,

Well, I don't know. The player's guide book had a section for pilots, and a section for taking over companies, and a section for hiding funds, and a section for suckering employees! I'm not kidding!

At any rate, some may have noticed that I enjoy linguistics and this word ONAE has me a bit puzzled.

So, I went to my handy, dandy American Heritage Dictionary (1969 Edition) and the closest word I could find is:

onanism: 1. male masturbation 2. Coitus interruptus
[After Onan, son of Judah (Genesis 38:9)]

With that I'll have to surmise that our friends involved with Onae trust are really into 'circle jerking' with each other. In fact they are so addicted to it that they've taken a secret oath and formed a trust to finance travel and luxury accomodations. Ergo.... it's a cult. What was the name of that hotel in Malaysia that our friend this morning mentioned?

;-)
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 20:26:13 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Mary M
Subject: Onae ????
Message:
Mary: You are doing great work. Please send me your email address, if you feel it's ok.
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 12:33:07 (EDT)
From: looking
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: More for sherlock
Message:
Quantum Leasing-I finally remembered that one.

ILC Productions

Names of possible undercover rawat org.s

David H Coyne Conn
Dena Eakles chicago
Bill Wishard malibu
Michael Blakemore princeton nj
W. Timothy Gallwey malibu
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 13:05:57 (EDT)
From: dv
Email: None
To: Quamtum handles plane
Subject: More for sherlock
Message:
A few years ago I believe Quamtum was set up to handle the leasing/ownership of whatever latest plane m flew.
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 16:48:08 (EDT)
From: Sherlock
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: ExecuCorp
Message:
Well folks this'll be it for the rest of the day.

I'm tired!

4/10/99 CORPORATE DETAIL RECORD SCREEN 4:40 PM
NUM: 845538 ST:DE ACTIVE/FOREIGN PROF FLD: 03/21/1980
LAST: NAME CHANGE AMENDMENT FLD: 12/18/1989FEI#: 59-1989997
NAME : EXECUCORP, INC.NH: 1
PRINCIPAL: 516 N PENNSFIELD PL CHANGED: 04/08/94
ADDRESS STE 108 THOUSAND OAKS, CA 91360 US
MAILING : P.O. BOX 1437 CHANGED: 03/15/93
ADDRESS THOUSAND OAKS, CA 91358-0437 US
RA NAME : MARGULIES, ALICIA I NAME CHG: 04/28/92
RA ADDR : 11900 BISCAYNE BLVD STE 200 ADDR CHG: 04/28/92
MIAMI, FL 33181 US
ANN REP : (1997) BY 05/21/97 (1998) BY 04/17/98 (1999) AN 03/10/99
4/10/99 EVENT DETAIL SCREEN 4:41 PM
CORP NUMBER: 845538 CORP STATUS: ACTIVE
FILED DATE : 03/21/1980CORP NAME : EXECUCORP, INC.
EVENT TYPE FILED EFFECTIVE DESCRIPTION
DATE DATE
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NAME CHANGE 12/18/1989 OLD NAME WAS : EXECUCORP MANAGEMENT
AMENDMENT CONSULTANTS LTD., INC.

4/10/99 OFFICER/DIRECTOR DETAIL SCREEN 4:41 PM
CORP NUMBER: 845538 CORP NAME: EXECUCORP, INC.
TITLE: S NAME: ADLER, WENDY
516 N PENNSFIELD PL STE 108
THOUSAND OAKS, CATITLE: PTD
NAME: JOHN K. BALE
516 N PENNSFIELD PL STE 108
THOUSAND OAKS, CATITLE: D
NAME: DELASKI, DONALD
8280 GREENSBORO DR STE 300
MCLEAN, VA
TITLE: VP NAME: ALICIA L. MARGUILES
11900 BISCAYNE BLVD., STE. 200
MIAMI, FLTITLE: D
NAME: JACOBS, ROBERT A.
ONE CHASE MANHATTAN PLZ
NEW YORK, NY
TITLE: AS NAME: HOLLE, MARY E.
516 N PENNSFIELD PL STE 108
THOUSAND OAKS, CA
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 16:49:20 (EDT)
From: Sherlock
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: Quantum
Message:
4/10/99 CORPORATE DETAIL RECORD SCREEN 4:32 PM
NUM: 844716 ST:NV INACTIVE/FOREIGN PROF FLD: 11/30/1979
LAST: WITHDRAWAL FLD: 06/24/1992FEI#: 95-3318500
NAME : QUANTUM INCORPORATEDNH: 1
PRINCIPAL: %CROWELL, SUSICH, OWEN & TACKES, LTD. CHANGED: 06/24/92
ADDRESS 510 WEST 4TH STREET, P. O. BOX 1000 CARSON CITY, NV 89702
ANN REP : (1990) I 04/13/90 (1991) I 07/02/91 (1992) B 06/02/92

4/10/99 OFFICER/DIRECTOR DETAIL SCREEN 4:32 PM
CORP NUMBER: 844716 CORP NAME: QUANTUM INCORPORATED
TITLE: VP NAME: MARGULIES, ALICIA I.
11900 BISCAYNE BL, S-200 MIAMI, FL
TITLE: DP NAME: GLIEBE, KATHLEEN M.
1900 BISCAYNE BL, S-200 MIAMI, FL
TITLE: VD NAME: POTTER, P. D. 11900 BISCAYNE BL, S-200
MIAMI, FLTITLE: S
NAME: YINGLING, TERESA A.
299 W HILLCREST DR S212
THOUSAND OAKS, CATITLE: T
NAME: BALE, JOHN K.
299 W HILLCREST DR S212
THOUSAND OAKS, CATITLE: D
NAME: JACOBS, ROBERT A.
ONE CHASE MANHATTAN PLZ.
NEW YORK, NY
4/10/99 EVENT DETAIL SCREEN 4:34 PM
CORP NUMBER: 844716 CORP STATUS: INACTIVE
FILED DATE : 11/30/1979CORP NAME : QUANTUM INCORPORATED
EVENT TYPE FILED EFFECTIVE DESCRIPTION
DATE DATE
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WITHDRAWAL 06/24/1992
NAME CHANGE 06/16/1980 OLD NAME WAS : QUANTUM LEASING CORP
AMENDMENT ORATION
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 16:50:28 (EDT)
From: Sherlock
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: SEVA
Message:
4/10/99 CORPORATE DETAIL RECORD SCREEN 4:37 PM
NUM: 614741 ST:FL INACTIVE/FL PROFIT FLD: 03/05/1979
LAST: VOLUNTARY DISSOLUTION FLD: 07/05/1989FEI#: 95-3335332
NAME : SEVA CORPORATION OF FLORIDA
PRINCIPAL: 300 71ST ST, STE 405 CHANGED: 03/13/85
ADDRESS P O BOX 546724 MIAMI BEACH, FL 33154
RA NAME : EXECUCORP MANAGEMENT CONSULTANTS LTD
RA ADDR : 300 71ST ST, STE 405 ADDR CHG: 03/13/85
MIAMI BEACH, FL 33141
ANN REP : (1987) I 03/25/87 (1988) I 06/10/88 (1989) I 06/02/89
4/10/99 OFFICER/DIRECTOR DETAIL SCREEN 4:37 PM
CORP NUMBER: 614741 CORP NAME: SEVA CORPORATION OF FLORIDA
TITLE: PD NAME: DETTMERS, MICHAEL V.
3457 PINEHAVEN CIRCLE
BOCA RATON, FL
TITLE: VD NAME: POTTER, P. D.
300 71ST ST. #405
MIAMI BEACH, FLTITLE: S
NAME: HOLLE, MARY E.
1865 KEYSTOE BOULEVARD
NORTH MIAMI, FL
TITLE: T NAME: CHRISTIAN, MITCHELL L.
1122 101ST STREET
BAY HARBOR ISLANDS, FL
TITLE: D NAME: JACOBS, ROBERT A.
1 CHASE MANHATTAN PLAZA
NEW YORK, NY.,
4/10/99 EVENT DETAIL SCREEN 4:39 PM
CORP NUMBER: 614741 CORP STATUS: INACTIVE
FILED DATE : 03/05/1979CORP NAME : SEVA CORPORATION OF FLORIDA
EVENT TYPE FILED EFFECTIVE DESCRIPTION
DATE DATE
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
VOLUNTARY 07/05/1989DISSOLUTION
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 20:58:21 (EDT)
From: Watson
Email: None
To: Sherlock
Subject: SEVA
Message:
You've done great Sherlock! Enjoy your rest!
Oh, and when you cranck her up again, can you see what we can find out about Prentice(or perhaps it's spelled Prentiss) Uchida?
He's the merger and acquisitions guy who got the whole NSA trip going for m. One of the company's in this effort was called Clear Resources.
Uchida was originally in California but I believe he has moved to Florida.
Thanks again for the great work!
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Date: Sun, Apr 11, 1999 at 03:09:35 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Sherlock
Subject: Quantum: Jet's leasing
Message:
I guess that's a big one.

Owning m's jet, and leasing it to the EV Foundation.
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Date: Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 10:16:28 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Sherlock
Subject: Quantum Leasing
Message:
Quantum Leasing was the company set up to own and lease the Boeing 707. I was in the legal department at DECA at the time, and I recall a very complicated, and naive, corporate set up to try to hide the plane's true ownership. It was formed on 11/30/79, which is right when I was there. I recall some discussion as to why Nevada was chosen to incorporate. I think it had lower taxes.

I remember Virgil Ciullo, who was an attorney for DLM being at the meetings discussing this, and how outraged he was at the sloppy and stupid ways the plane was originally acquired. I also worked with Linda Gross, who was an attorney at the Office of Guru Maharaj Ji, to get all the corporate requirements done to set things up.

However, it appears that Quantum is inactive and has been withdrawn. Is this because it's now a Swiss company (maybe also called Quantum that owns and leases the current plane that M usese?) It looks like the company was withdrawn in 1992.

:NV INACTIVE/FOREIGN PROF FLD: 11/30/1979
WITHDRAWAL FLD: 06/24/1992FEI#: 95-3318500


Withdrawn in 1992 and inactive. I also note that the last annual report was in 1992.

TITLE: VD NAME: POTTER, P. D. 11900 BISCAYNE BL, S-200

One director is Potter. I assume Peter Potter who was national coordinator in UK and Australia, right?

YINGLING, TERESA A.

Another director is Terry Yingling. I recall she was a premie from Providence. She was a nice person as I recall, although in the early 80s she was touring with David Smith, which she told he was hell.

JACOBS, ROBERT A.

Well, here he is again!
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Date: Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 14:59:55 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Quantum Leasing
Message:
Hi J.W.,

Peter Potter is/was a really nice guy from the early days in the U.K. I don't think he ws every co-ordinator in U.K. I thought that had always been Glen Whittaker. Peter is more of an accountant.

Anyway, what is SEVA?

What underhand goings on have you found out about it if any?
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Date: Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 10:30:01 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Sherlock
Subject: ExecuCorp, Inc.
Message:
NAME : EXECUCORP, INC
NUM: 845538 ST:DE ACTIVE/FOREIGN PROF FLD: 03/21/1980


Okay, so this corporation is active. I assume it also has something to do with the plane. It's a Delaware Corporation and was also formed with at the right time, in March, 1980, right when the 707 was being worked on. As I said, I remember these meetings with Virgil and Jim Hession at which the corporate structure was discussed to hide ownership of the plane.

ANN REP : (1997) BY 05/21/97 (1998) BY 04/17/98 (1999) AN 03/10/99

This corporation had an annual report just filed in March, 1999, so this entity is going strong.

Directors:
DELASKI, DONALD
8280 GREENSBORO DR STE 300
MCLEAN, VA


Here is Don again.

ALICIA L. MARGUILES
11900 BISCAYNE BLVD., STE. 200


Who is this woman? She appears all over these corporate entities.

JACOBS, ROBERT A.
ONE CHASE MANHATTAN PLZ
NEW YORK, NY


Here is Bob Jacobs again -- he also is all over the place.

AS NAME: HOLLE, MARY E.
516 N PENNSFIELD PL STE 108
THOUSAND OAKS, CA


Execucorp's Assistant Secretary is Mary Holle. Good old Mary Holle, from Des Moines, Iowa. Mary was involved in DLM from early on. She was the premie who did communications with all the communities. In Miami, at one point, she left the ashram and ran off with another ashram premie whose name I can't recall.
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Date: Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 13:52:34 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: DeLaski family Deltek
Message:
NASDAQ: DLTK

DelTek webpage

Ken deLaski
President, Deltek Systems

Deltek Locations:
Headquarters
8280 Greensboro Dr.
McLean, VA 22102
703/734-8606
800/456-2009
f 703/734-1146

333 W. Santa Clara St.
Suite 716
San Jose, CA 95113
408/885-9959
800/868-2444
f 408/885-9958

5690 DTC Boulevard
Suite 260
Englewood, CO 80111
303/850-9854
f 303/779-9852

Note: Eric REINEMER, CPA with an address in Englewood, CO
was listed as the Registered Agent for Prem Mark, Inc.


68 Moulton St.
Cambridge, MA 02138
617/492-4410
f 617/876-2973

50 Hans Crescent
London, England
SW1-ONA
+44 (0)7000-335835
f +44 (0)171-8380778

10th Floor, The Insular Life Building
6781 Ayala Avenue
Makati City
Metro Manila, Philippines
632-810-3028
f 632-894-2001

DeLaski Virginia novo riche The Virginia 100 richest families

THE deLASKIS
Great Falls, VA

Father and son, Donald deLaski Sr. and Kenneth E. deLaski, founded Deltek Systems Inc. in 1983. McLean firm develops and supports advanced software.

Donald is chairman, Kenneth is president and CEO. Both began their careers as accountants. Donald also served as CFO for a government contractor and founded his own CPA firm specializing in providing services to government contractors. In 1996, he and wife Nancy founded The Alliance for Medical Care, nonprofit organization that subsidizes health insurance premiums for
children of low-income working families.

Net Worth: $215 million
Confidence: A
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Date: Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 20:19:12 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Lem Lasher - DECA - ?IMMCO
Message:
Hi Everyone,

Following is the one DECA filing. Sorry that it's not nice and neat. Anyone ever hear of IMMCO?

LAST: INVOLUNTARILY DISSOLVED
FLD: 11/14/1986
FEI#: 59-1896861
NAME : DECA GROUP, INC.
NH: 1
PRINCIPAL: 470 N.E. 110 STREET
CHANGED: 06/18/85A
DDRESS MIAMI, FL 33161
RA NAME : CROWELL, JANET M.
NAME CHG: 06/20/84
RA ADDR : 470 NE 110 STREET
ADDR CHG: 06/29/84
MIAMI, FL 33161

ANN REP : (1983) I 09/06/83
(1984) I 06/29/84
(1985) I 06/18/85

OFFICER/DIRECTOR DETAIL SCREEN
CORP NUMBER: 599911
CORP NAME: DECA GROUP, INC.

TITLE: P
NAME: LASHER, R. LEMUEL
153 WISTERIA DRIVE
LONGWOOD, FL

TITLE: S
NAME: CROWELL, JANET
470 NE 110 STREET
MIAMI, FL,

EVENT DETAIL SCREEN
CORP NUMBER: 599911
CORP STATUS: INACTIVE
FILED DATE : 02/15/1979
CORP NAME : DECA GROUP, INC.
INVOLUNTARILY 11/14/1986 DISSOLVED
NAME CHANGE 11/16/1979
OLD NAME WAS : IMMCO, INC.
AMENDMENT
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Date: Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 20:26:14 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Lem & Pals Bus Line
Message:
The wipers on the bus go: swish, swish, swish
swish, swish, swish swish, swish, swish

The wheels on the bus go: round and round, round and round, round and round.

Hmmmm... I hereby proclaim that soo-hung (which probably does not describe the Onanist Club Members members;-) has been replaced with swish, swish, swish.

CORPORATE DETAIL RECORD SCREEN

NUM: 651822
ST:FL
INACTIVE/FL PROFIT
FLD: 12/05/1979
LAST: INVOLUNTARILY DISSOLVED
FLD: 12/14/1982
FEI#: 59-1953622
NAME : EMPIRE BUS LINES, INC.
PRINCIPAL: 975 N.W. 1ST AVE.
ADDRESS MIAMI, FL
RA NAME : GRAY, MARTIN
RA ADDR : 975 N.W. 1ST. AVE.
MIAMI, FL
ANN REP : (1980)
I 02/18/80
(1981) I 06/16/81

OFFICER/DIRECTOR DETAIL SCREEN
CORP NUMBER: 651822
CORP NAME: EMPIRE BUS LINES, INC.

TITLE: V NAME: GRAY, MARTIN
1500 BAY RD. #424
MIAMI BEACH,
TITLE: D NAME: VUKO, JAMES
1500 BAY RD #1507
MIAMI BEACH, FL
TITLE: PD NAME: ANCTIL, JOE
1500 BAY RD. #214
MIAMI BEACH, FL
TITLE: T NAME: LASHER, R LEMUEL
1500 BAY RD #1524
MIAMI BEACH FL,
TITLE: SD NAME: DYESS, BOOTH
1500 BAY RD #424
MIAMI BEACH FL,

INVOLUNTARILY 12/14/1982DISSOLVED
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Date: Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 22:54:44 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: This Was the Travel Agency
Message:
Joe Anctil, Jim Vuko(kind of a hunk, btw), Martin Gray, and Booth Dyess were all part of the cult travel agency, first called 'AITTA,' and later called 'Travel Lite' located in Miami Beach.

It mostly made its money by forcing all the premies to use the agency to book plane tickets and hotel rooms for the cult festivals, many of which were in Miami Beach. Remember, each community had a 'travel agent' that got everyone signed up, etc.? But they tried to get additional business and be a legit travel agency that would actually make money, but that never really happened and I think it went out of business. This bus company was a subsidiary for leasing busses, again, mostly for cult festivals, but also for other stuff.

The address of the directors on Bay Road was an apartment building called 'Morton Towers' where a lot of premies lived. It was otherwise filled with older Jewish people, and we used to call it 'Mortuary Towers.' I know that was in bad taste, but that's the kind of people we were, what can I say.
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Date: Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 07:49:50 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: This Was the Travel Agency
Message:
Wow, I've been searching for this Travel Agency for quite a while. They once booked me into a hotel under construction where my younger daughter drank some paint thinner left in an orange juice container by the pool.

I got to see first hand what happens in a true emergency around premies.

1. They look at you as if you're nuts when you say call 911.
2. They'll ask if they will get their quarter back (if you borrow one to call 911)
3. You're left completely alone at Mt. Sinai Childrens Medical Center with no means back.
4. You're sent round and round by the hotel management, and the bogus 'travel agency' when you ask who to sue! (Turned out the hotel was somehow or another owned by one of these companies)!

With that 'vented' I have a message to Booth Dyes:

SHAME ON YOU BOOTH.

And to think your own daughter was rocked in my rocking chair. I hope you've changed your stripes.

Mary M
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Date: Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 22:47:55 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: IMMCO
Message:
IMMCO was the company name for the Boeing 707 project prior to DECA. I don't recall what it stood for, but we used to call it 'IN MY MIND COMPANY.'

DECA stood for 'DESIGN AND ENGINEERING COMPANY' I don't recall what the A stood for.
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Date: Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 00:05:33 (EDT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: deca group
Message:
D design
e engineering
c completion
a achievement

group

m didn't like the word group so they dropped it.

I have the deca poster
Quite nice actually

JW, I was saying -fried- about randy prouty not fired.
I saw a comment on the forum very recently about him being
seen at an event in the late nineties.
I read the report about how they got the plane and almost
lost thier deposit because they didn't have all the money
on the day they were supposed to.
The plane was bought sight unseen and it was in Ireland.
It needed some repairs just to get to miami.
It also spent time in cuba! but I forget the details
at the moment.
Oh yeah immco, I remember that.
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Date: Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 00:22:16 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: Fried Prouty
Message:
Okay so why was Prouty FRIED, for what reason and how?
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Date: Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 07:52:59 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Fried Prouty :-)
Message:
Well JW....

I wouldn't want to be in Randy's shoes when he's tellin a bunch of Irishmen that he's a wee bit short on cash for the plane he's been sent to purchase.

bb - do you know who he was buying the plane from in Ireland?

Mare
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Date: Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 10:53:53 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: Fried Prouty :-)
Message:
The 707 was bought in Ireland, in a fashion that was really stupid. Basically just cash thrown around and the plane was in such bad shape (It was built in 1961), that it was questionable that it was even safe to fly it back to the States. They also paid way too much for the plane -- much more than what it was worth, Maharaji wanteda big plane -- it was there -- and there was grace.
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Date: Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 12:52:42 (EDT)
From: MARK
Email: WHO STOLE ROGER RABBIT?
To: JW
Subject: Fried Prouty :-)
Message:
SOMEHOW IN THIS CORPORATE GOO
DECA IN SOME FORM CONTINUED ON.
JW ,do you remember Roger Cook from Coll ?
He became principal stockholder in the company that remained,
owned and operated by premies. Deca(aka ?) was sold last year for $64 or $65 MM !( this was told to me by an Amtext 'player',and confirmed by a 'small stockholder' who got $1MM ! Holy Reverend Moon!) Roger got the lion's share. In fact, if Maharaji can just get him to roll over that level of funds, M might not have to run any more of those distasteful fundraising slide presentations or have his Israeli Randy Prouty Clone do the latest 'Crucial'fundraising tour.

So in some name, Deca did continue.
And I bet Rog gets WHATEVER seat he wants at ANY program or conference.
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Date: Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 14:07:29 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: MARK
Subject: Deca and Salve Businesses
Message:
JW ,do you remember Roger Cook from Coll ?

The name sounds familiar, but I can't place a face on it.

He became principal stockholder in the company that remained,
owned and operated by premies.


Others are saying DECA went bankrupt, couldn't meet its payroll, was doing all sorts of illegal stuff to stay in business, like violating tax, worker's comp and safety laws, as headed by a very nervous Lem Lasher, and was soon gone.

But others say there was some kind of a spin-off business, possibly run by Peter Dettmers with Michael Dettmers currently taking credit in connection with his rather bizarre new age consulting business, (touting his MBA from a matchbook correspondence school in Kentucky), that he turned the business in to a model of efficiency and worker cooperation.

Maybe that is the business that was sold for all the money. I think it makes/made airline seats. I'm very skeptical, however, because I am inclined to believe that like everything else in the cult business world, Amtext and Premark included, that business got its start with the use of premie ashram slave labor, other 'service' labor and subsidized by millions of dollars of donations from proverty-striken premies, and without that kind of massive advantage, it never would have survived. If Michael Cook, Dettmers or anybody else is now rich because of that, and if Maharaji continues to profit from them, I think that royally sucks and needs to be exposed to the world.

this was told to me by an Amtext 'player',and confirmed by a 'small stockholder' who got $1MM ! Holy Reverend Moon!)

Are you serious? Moon was a stockholder in the company?
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Date: Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 15:18:47 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: JW & Mary M
Subject: Corporate mtgs
Message:
JW & Mary: If these corporations have issued stock, don't they have to have stockholders mtgs and corporate records that are supposed to be available to the SEC and possibly the PUBLIC?
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Date: Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 16:03:43 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Corporate mtgs
Message:
Hi Marianne,

Unfortunately the database I use (Edgar) only goes back to 1994. Deltek was easy to locate and I requested all records from '94 on. I then try to go over the 'History' sections.

The same for the health food company that went public. They just happened to have a lengthy history on PREM MARK and Rainbow Grocery.

The most difficult aspect of this is getting correct name spellings (not to mention things were shuffled around quite a bit)! The more names the better. I think we might need to spend some time putting ALL the information into a database and running relational reports. Big job.

I've found a few other sites that have SEC info from the late 80's and early 90's. I'm thinking of signing up.

Mary M
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Date: Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 17:12:07 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: SEVA Corporation of America
Message:
Mary --

I've run some stuff through the California Secretary of State.

SEVA Corporation of America is a Nevada Corporation filing as a foreign corporation in California.

The President is good old Mary Holle located in Thousand Oaks, California. The address is 516 N. Pennsfield Place, Suite 108

The registered agent in California is, once again, John Bale at the same address.

It's a for-profit stock corporation, listed as active. It was incorporated on January 5, 1978.

I assume SEVA is, like Execucorp, involved with the plane. Anyone know more?
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Date: Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 17:54:39 (EDT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: SEVA Corporation - Marry Holle
Message:
Is that the same mary that is about 5-1 or so -there was a mary holly in the ashram I lived in Denver - just curious
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Date: Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 18:32:27 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Ben Lurking
Subject: SEVA Corporation - Marry Holle
Message:
Yes.
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Date: Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 19:34:15 (EDT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: SEVA Corporation - Marry Holle
Message:
I went hiking in the mountains with her - she was coming on to me, which I was to nieve to recognize at the time - always thought of her as one that got away - sounds like I got lucky to not catch or get caught
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Date: Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 18:13:05 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: SEVA Corporation of America
Message:
Hi JW,

If a corportation had less than 500 Stock Investors or was worth less than $10,000,000 then they were not required to file with the SEC. It was 'suggested' that they fill out a certain form but a lot of our time frames have passed by!

Mary M
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Date: Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 18:36:22 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: Closely Held Corps.
Message:
Mary, I'm sure all these companies, to the extent they still exist, are 'closely held,' meaning they only have a few stockholders, maybe 3 or 4 at the most. I doubt the SEC will have any information on them because they are not publicly traded.
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Date: Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 17:15:35 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: Quantum Leasing, Inc.
Message:
California shows Quantum Leasing as a 'suspended' corporation. It was 'suspended' by the Franchise Tax Board for not paying corporate taxes on January 4, 1982. The mailing address is c/o Kenneth Craig in Westlake Village, California.

It was incorporated on 2/25/80 as a California domestic corporation, which leads me to believe it also has something to do with the plane. I think SEVA may have taken Quantum's place.
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Date: Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 17:20:05 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: Amtext, Inc./Text Mart
Message:
California says Amtext is a Delaware stock corporation qualified in California only on March 17, 1997.

The registered agent in California is Barbara McFarland, in Fullerton (Orange County) California. (I remember Barbara, and her husband Bob, as very nice people and they were, respectively, managers of the two Rainbow Grocery stores in Chicago in the late 70s and 80s.)

The president is listed as Chuck Nathan in Miami.

Amtext does business in California as 'Text Mart.'
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Date: Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 20:41:26 (EDT)
From: dv
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Deca and Salve Businesses
Message:
There was a front page article in the Port St. Lucie Tribune about Dettmers Ind, which is located in Stuart, Florida. There is another article dated a few months ago stating it was sold to some company in California.
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Date: Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 20:52:06 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: Dettmers Industries
Message:
Do you know if it was in any way related to Deca? Where is Stuart, Florida?
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Date: Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 21:08:08 (EDT)
From: dv
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Dettmers Industries
Message:
Stuart is 45 minutes north of West Palm Beach. Peter Dettmers started the company building airplane seats, then with the addition of Andy's organizational talents, the company took off. Through an incentive and profit sharing program, the employees are paid 20% higher than the industry average. They were able to cut delivery time for orders in half, and grabbed a large share of the market.
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Date: Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 21:44:55 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: JW - dv - crow -bb
Subject: Michael Dettmers/SEVA/AMNEX?
Message:
Hello all,

Well this is a convoluted one. I did a people search for Michael V Dettmers on the SEC database.

I received one return:

DETTMERS MICHAEL V. 3/31/98 10-K AMNEX INC

Following are a few sections of interest. It is quite an interesting document in it's entirety. Let me know if you'd like a zipped copy.

Also, I am wondering:

If 'Onei' trust was perhaps a typo and it might be 'Anei' Trust?
Crow - could that odd word you heard been 'Pangaea' as mentioned below.

Here's the paste!

General AMNEX, Inc. and its consolidated subsidiaries collectively, the 'Company', is an integrated payphone and operator services telecommunications company, serving both United States and international markets which also provides billing services primarily for unaffiliated third-party telecommunications service providers. The Company is a New York corporation which was organized on March 15, 1985. Its principal executive offices are located at 145 Huguenot Street, New Rochelle, New York.

In June 1996, AMNEX acquired all of the outstanding stock of Capital Network System, Inc. ('CNSI'), a company primarily engaged in the provision of operator services to, among others, United States and Canadian tourists traveling in the Caribbean and Mexico. CNSI was also engaged in the provision of operator services in the United States where, prior to its acquisition, it competed directly with AMNEX's domestic telecommunications subsidiary, American Network Exchange, Inc. ('ANEI'). In 1997, the domestic operations of CNSI were absorbed into ANEI.

In September 1996, AMNEX acquired 80% of the outstanding stock of National Business Exchange, Inc., now known as National Billing Exchange ('NBE'), which provides various billing services to telecommunications companies, including the ability to place billing transactions on the local telephone company bill page.

Since November 1996, AMNEX's wholly-owned subsidiary, Crescent Public Communications Inc. ('Crescent'), has acquired payphones in the New Jersey and New York Metropolitan areas. In addition, in March 1997, Crescent, through its 80%-owned subsidiary, Sun Tel North America, Inc., acquired payphones of Sun Tel, Inc. located in Florida. Most recently, in January 1998, Crescent purchased 900 payphones in the New York Metropolitan area.

In January 1997, AMNEX acquired a minority equity position in Elektra Communication, Inc. ('ECI'), formerly Galesi Telecom International, Inc., a privately-owned telecommunications holding company with operations in Sweden. See Item 13(a) hereof.

Recent Sales of Unregistered Securities
During the quarter ended December 31, 1997, the Company issued or sold the following equity securities other than in transactions registered under the Securities Act of 1933, as amended (the 'Securities Act'):

In September 1997, the Company issued 2,717,326 Common Shares to Francesco Galesi upon the conversion of certain notes the Company other than in transactions registered under the Securities Act. The Common Shares were issued pursuant to the exemption from registration provided by Section 3(a)(9) of the Securities Act as such Common Shares were exchanged by the company with its existing security holder and no commission or other remuneration was paid or given, directly or indirectly, for soliciting such exchange.

(ii) In December 1997, the Company sold 1,000 Series M Preferred Shares to *** Pangaea Fund Ltd. ('Pangaea') *** at purchase price of $1,000 per share. The Series M Preferred Shares are onvertible into Common Shares at a conversion price that is the lesser of (a) the average of the lowest five closing bid prices during the thirty trading day period before conversion notice is sent or (b) $2.65. In consideration of the purchase of the Series M Preferred Shares,the Company issued to Pangaea and its designee five-year warrants for the purchase of 60,000 Common Shares at an exercise price of $2.65. Such Series M Preferred Shares and warrants were issued pursuant to the exemption from registration provided by Section 4(2) of the Securities Act.

iii) In October 1997, the Company issued 44,500 Common Shares to certain officers and directors of the Company. Such Common Shares were issued pursuant to the exemption from registration provided by Section 4(2) of the Securities Act.
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Date: Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 22:04:51 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: Dettmers AMNEX Gylanix
Message:
Ah, AMNEX! This is one of the clients listed on Dettmers Glyanix website.

Check it out and other, so called clients, at Gylanix Clients
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Date: Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 19:37:52 (EDT)
From: crow
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: Mary M.
Message:
The plane was not owned by Irish, it just ended up there.
Jim Hession would know, Robyn knows him.

The name of the plane was 'borinquen'.
I asked Miami spanish people what that meant and all I
could get from them is, that name is known to spanish
people as a trade name, that had no meaning, like
say 'tide' detergent, or 'kleenex'.
I have seen that name on a product or two.
The report, I read, made it seem that the person selling the
plane had a shifty track record and they felt lucky that
he didn't walk with thier 250,000.
The report said that if he did, there would be a lawsuit,
but that he would win.
It also mentioned that no one had seen the jet before buying.
I bet someone told m about it and he said 'buy it'.
They didn't do things on thier own. NOt something like that
anyway.

J.W. do you remember the rich premies name that lived
on Rivo Alto Island, chum of raja, Construction Resources
did his house and he wanted the underside of the metal
handrails going up the stairs, the bottom piece, not the
handrail top piece, sanded absolutely smooth.
He was wanting the same level of perfection as his lord.
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Date: Tues, Apr 13, 1999 at 20:56:16 (EDT)
From: dv
Email: None
To: crow
Subject: Gold don't fly too well.
Message:
The first time the 707 took off with a full load of fuel, it used the WHOLE RUNWAY! There very a rather prolonged moment of silence from the tower, then the controller made some comment that I wish I could remember.
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Date: Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 06:21:25 (EDT)
From: crow
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: Gold don't fly too well.
Message:
You can bet that the cargo hold was full of clothing
and krishna costumes and whatnot.
The stage we built was supposed to go on tour with him also.

John Miller is a name that should be looked at also.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 08:40:13 (EDT)
From: Malaysia
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
Dear Forum,
Nine months ago a work friend told me about Maharaji and Knowledge.
Seven months ago I started to go to video events here in Malaysia.
Six months ago I told my sister in America what I was doing.
Two days later she was emailing me with the Forum details.
And so I began an interesting parallel journey.
One hour a week attending video events and one hour a week checking out the forum.
I could hardly believe the contrast.
Maharaji talking over and over again about a source of peace and joy within me, the forum talking about everything else.
The forum talking about money and persuasion, the video events free and easy.
But finally the crunch had to come.
Maharaji was coming to Malaysia.
Now I would see the reality behind the videos.
No trick editing this time.
Now I was going to see him face to face.
The first clue of what was to come was the incredible feeling in the hotel.
And when I finally saw Maharaji face to face he said the same thing I have been hearing for eight months.
'Go within, there's something important there'.
And so today I receieved Knowledge.
And now I know.
I'm sorry you didn't understand Knowledge.
But I have and I am so grateful that Maharaji has made this available.
It is everything he said it was and I look forward to discovering more and more about this quiet place beyond my thoughts and dreams.
New Premie
Malaysia
9/4/1999
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 09:00:30 (EDT)
From: sp
Email: None
To: Malaysia
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
Best of luck in your adventure.

N.B. RULES OF THE CON GAME

1) build trust
2) let the mark ask you

Glad you know this site exists.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 10:05:09 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Malaysia
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
Malaysia,

How many videos did you have to go to before you received Knowledge? How many months (years?) did you wait before finally receiving it? Don't you think that's a bit much? Now you've got Knowledge. You could have learned the techniques right here on this website. Maybe what you really want is a master, eh? Somebody to answer your questions for you, somebody who you think has got it all figured out and is going to lead you to the promised land? How old are you? Are you young, in your 20s? If so, don't be so impressionable by people placed on pedestals by others. They're only as human as you are. What good reason do you have to think, otherwise? My advice to you is to just take the techniques, now that you have them (and are so impressed by them. Have you tried other forms of meditation? I have. I like them better than K.) and head for the nearest exit.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 13:01:44 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Jerry
Subject: Jerry
Message:
Dear Jerry,
'Have you tried other forms of meditation? I have. I like them better than K.)'
Maybe you have already written about this but if so I missed it and would love to hear more. Do you still meditate today?
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 15:11:37 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Robyn
Message:
Robyn,

I've mentioned in passing that I've practiced some Tai Chi and got a sense of well being from it. People say Tai Chi is a form of excercise but I think of it as more of a 'physical' meditation. The purpose of it is to heighten awareness through focus on slow body movements. At least, that's how I relate to it. I like it because of the movement factor. I like to be moving around instead of just sitting still, unless of course there's something good on TV or I'm reading a good book. I've also practiced a breathing technique similar to K but enjoyed it more than K. I was really puzzled by this because I had only just read about this technique while browsing in a bookstore and started practicing it right then and there and really enjoyed it after years of struggling with K.

I suspect that since there was no heavy devotional trip attached to these alternatives to K, I was able to enjoy them for what they were, just a means of airing out and feeling content for the moment. Really, isn't that all meditation can do? I think it's ridiculous to think of Knowledge as a seed which is going to bloom into a tree over time. Yes, I think that is quite absurd. If you get something out of it during the time you're practicing it, I think that's about as good as it's going to get. I wouldn't hold my breath hoping for something more. I wonder about peole who say they're learning 'more and more' and 'growing' as time passes. I have no idea what they mean. I doubt they do, either.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 15:50:41 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Robyn
Message:
Robyn,

Sorry, but I didn't answer your queston if I still meditate. No, not really. What I mean is that I don't set time aside for it. If I do 'meditate' it will be quite spontaneously. Every now and then I'll focus my awareness on the second technique or I'll close my eyes for awhile and focus on the first technique. And of course, after years of focusing on my breath, its a reflex to find myself frequently being mindful of it, although I don't really get anything out of it when I do. With the first and second techniques, though, I often do get a good feeling, if only a short lived one.

I don't do Tai Chi anymore, but like the first and second technique I'll occasionally, spontaneously, practice this other technique I've read about for a minute or two. The odd thing about meditation and me is that it only seems to work if I practice it for a few moments here and there just to get a sense of well being from it. And I guess that ain't even really meditating, is it? I mean, real meditation is when you get really into it for at least 20 minutes or so, right? I can't do that. Boredom sets in fast if I try.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 16:31:28 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Jerry
Subject: Robyn
Message:
Dear Jerry,
When I was a premie and living in this area on a farm, one of the guys that lived there would do Tai Chi in the dirt road in front of the house. I often watched him and thought it was beautiful and quite meditative for me to just watch him. Then if I timed it right I could watch Sal bath naked with the garden hose out the kitchen window before supper and the veiw of the country side was beautiful also :) but I digress.
I do so many different work out things right now I could spend all day every day on it all but Tai Chi sounds so good but just won't be happeining in my life right now!
I have learned, reading it here that the 3rd tech is the word, I am from the old days you know, but I don't know what 1 or 2 are or 4 for that matter!
I will tell you this, while I was a premie, I had no experience with music or nectar but did with the word and light and when I read someone say how the experience is growing or whatever I relate that to what happened to me doing light on a steady basis over months or a year. It changed from blobs of color to symetrical patterns like colored ink blots and was quite fun, amazing and rewarding BUT NOT a gift from M.
I think meditating for a moment is still meditating and if it gives you some peace all the better. What is 'real' meditation? I think it is Nigel or Sir David who say the techniques are just relaxation techniques.I never even pay attention to how long I do any of it. I don't do any meditation with any regularity but I do do it when I think of it or sometimes my body just starts it on reflex and it is relaxing and nice. Good enough for me. :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 17:12:05 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Tai Chi/ Meditation
Message:
Tai Chi was originally a martial art. Martial artists in China traditionally practice adaptations of yoga, some of which were taught in the famous Shaolin Temple. Taught correctly, it is a martial art.

Chi Kung are more diverse exercises which may include specifically meditative movements. (Some Chi Kung are purely medical or have other purposes.) Tai Chi and Chi Kung have cross-pollinated quite a bit, but a person may be better off finding a teacher who teaches it as a martial art if they want to learn it correctly.

By the way, nectar technique, palming the eyes and breath concentration are extremely common in Chinese Tai Chi and Chi Kung. A form of nectar technique is actually recquired for most traditional Tai Chi forms.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 18:34:33 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Tai Chi/ Meditation
Message:
My wife has been taking Tai Chi since June of last year, and I started in September of last year. Our teacher is from China, and she explains the martial arts aspects of each stance we learn. I must admit, I get nervous when she starts talking about the 'chi' and attributing all manner of miraculous powers to it, but, since all they ask of me is $40.00 per semester, I don't feel threatened ;-). I see it as a means of focus and not as a spiritual discipline. I enjoy it, and I am learning to move gracefully as a result of this practice.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 22:03:32 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: da Chi
Message:
Yeah, Tai Chi is cool. I could definitely feel the Chi in my hands with whatever that is where you hold the ball or the clouds.

Just goes to show that there are all sorts of centering and calming inner techniques that you don't need no fool living imPerfect Master leach.

Hey, Malaysia (if you're real) sure when you went into the hall to see Maharaji there was a beautiful feeling. It's all brain waves and chemistry, expectation, and a collective experience.

It would be great if you were completely deaf, dumb, and blind and there was no way to ever communicate thoughts or ideas to you. In such case Maharaji would be perfectly harmless. Alas, that's not the case and as soon as you try to understand what he is saying and try applying that to your life you might forget the wonderful feeling that you experienced and become confused.

But, you probably ain't real anyway...
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 03:15:08 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Tai Chi/ Meditation
Message:
In 1976 when I damaged my spine and couild not walk for a fw months, I used the basic tai Chi movements to learn to walk again. It was very useful.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 18:56:41 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Wishful Thinking
Message:
'I wonder about people who say they're learning more and more and growing as time passes. I have no idea what they mean. I doubt they do either.

If you are listening Malaysia, I practiced for twenty odd years and have to agree with Jerry.

I like the feeling after a good meditation but as for growing and learning, in your dreams, baby! The two ain't related.

As for the feeling in the room, I experienced this too when I used to go and see M. Could this be 'enthusiasm'? If your peace-feeling depends on your enthusiasm for M when you go home you won't experience it - believe me.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 10:10:01 (EDT)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Malaysia
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
Dear Malaysia,

All of us who write hear have also trusted M. once. The more we trusted in him, the more we offered ourselves to his service, the more upset and betrayed do we feel now.

I am absolutely certain that it will happen for you, too. There's nothing wrong with the meditation as such. But there is something very seriously wrong with your 'master'. One day you will find out. Then, remember everything you read here. All the best to you,

Happy
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 10:12:02 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Passive-aggressive
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
I'm sorry you didn't understand Knowledge.

Please, see my comments to George below, re. patronising posts from spiritual know-alls.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 10:45:39 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Malaysia
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
hello Malaysia,

So you would follow anyone who gave you a good feeling?
You obviously don't mind the fact that m protects perverts and uses golden toilets.
I have done propagation in Malaysia and seen how some of the poor premies live. That golden toilet could feed many. Still that doesn't matter, because you have a good feeling, does it?
You should understand that many of the 'exs' have precticed the K AND enjoyed 'that experience', however what they have understood is that 'that experience' is their own and nothing to do with prempal. I hope you don't waste too many years supporting a pervert.

Jethro
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 11:12:17 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: 56 lbs of gold
Message:
Jethro: STOLEN from the AZ Intel plant..... I wonder if M is planning a gold outhouse (for his personal use) at Amaroo or Kissimmee? :-)
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 21:29:04 (EDT)
From: sheindel
Email: shakti@itis.com
To: Jethro
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
Hi Jethro. why is M a pervert? tell me.
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 03:19:44 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: sheindel
Subject: sheindel M is
Message:
a protector of perverts is worse tah a pervert. If you don't understand this then read some of the archives here.
Those that blindly support him are equally guilty by their silence.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 21:43:57 (EDT)
From: Traveller
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: did you know Phil Riff? (ot)
Message:
Jethro, did you know a guy named Phil Riff. He went to Malaysia to do prachar under Mata Ji's agya. Apparently, in his white dhoti they had a parade for him like he was some kind of guru.

Eventually, he ran out of money and had to borrow the life savings of a local to leave the country.

Last I heard about him was him sitting naked in Maharaji's chair in a satsang hall until the police took him away.
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 03:27:38 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Traveller
Subject: did you know Phil Riff? (ot)
Message:
Traveller Hi,
No I didn't know Phil Riff, I was in Malaysia in 1981. BTW they did give me the mahatma treatment and like Phil I didn't have any money to return. My fair was paid for by one of the chief customs's officers who was a devotee of M and used to do the inspection on M's plane when he arrived.
If you get a chance to visit Malaysia go and visit the Cameroon Highlands...a really beautiful place.

All the best Jethro
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 11:29:54 (EDT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Malaysia
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
It seems that you have received Knowledge in the last few hours. How interesting, first of all, that the Internet makes this kind of communication possible from one corner of the world to another. Apparently, one of the first things you have done after the Knowledge session is to post your message to the exes, glowing with assurance after less than a day being a PWK. Your rushed message to the exes indicates how much more Knowledgable you now are (pun intended) than those of us who have literally decades of experience, how much more in tune with Truth, Love, and Consciousness you now are compared to any ex-premie and compared to everyone who hasn't yet had the benefit of Maharaji's meditation technique initiation. You are truly a superior person now because you have subjugated yourself before the Superior Power in Person. After less than a day, you are convinced beyond doubt about the power of the techniques, the true identity of Mr. Rawat, the true nature of the soul, and the one and only path to truth. I do have one caution for you, however: when the masters say that the Truth is within, they don't mean to stick your head up your butt.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 12:41:59 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Imposter -- Made Up Post
Message:
Way, I think you make an excellent post, but I strongly believe Mr. Malaysia is a premie imposter. If a 'new premie' is so thrilled with knowledge and 'the experience' he or she isn't goint to immediately argue with ex-premies. That's really hard to believe.

No, I'm convinced this is one of the regular premies who posts or lurks here making this crap up. As Gurucharanand used to say, this is my definite opinion.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 14:14:46 (EDT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Imposter -- Made Up Post
Message:
You could be right. I checked Enjoyinglife and there is no mention yet of a Knowledge session happening at the Malaysia event on 4/9. It doesn't really matter, of course, but perhaps Brian or another Forum administrator could identify where the post originated from. It's rather pitiful that a premie would attempt to defend their version of Truth by making up a fake story. The few premies who have posted here have all made a few half-hearted, condescending remarks, and then split. I guess it is very unlikely that a real coherent argument with a practicing premie will ever unfold here. If any of you exes out there ever have a good, substantial heart-to-heart (or mind-to-mind) discussion with a current PWK, please give us a report.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 20:18:14 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Imposter -- Made Up Post
Message:
Aahhhh,

The old 'Red Herring' trick.

;-)
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 23:36:24 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Waysayer
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
>After less than a day, you are convinced beyond doubt about the power of the techniques

Yeah, some people really do have a good experience at their K session.

>they don't mean to stick your head up your butt

Apparently you got WAY confused.
No WAY, thats not what 'Truth is within' is about.

CD
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Date: Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 16:59:07 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
CD:

'>they don't mean to stick your head up your butt

Apparently you got WAY confused.
No WAY, thats not what 'Truth is within' is about.'

It IS, if we take the example of most of the active premies that post here!

CD, another set of posts really got me rollin'. Tell me, why doesn't the fact that DUO money was used on M lavish lifestyle vice humanity mean anything to you? I've noticed that you have never attempted to pny up to the bar on this one...why not? You know, if he sold that silly-assed plane for $15 million, he could feed 50,000 people for a FULL YEAR (based upon $25 per person per month). That's a fact, CD, not fantasy.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 12:58:43 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Malaysia
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
Dear Malaysia,
You missed the point dear. Some people have a good experience with K, including myself and some don't have any experience. The point is it isn't something M GIVES you. It is just something you learned HOW to DO!!
The bad/sad part is to give your life over to someone who doesn't care about you and tells you what to think and do or not do or how to think about certain things and how not to think about other things like what kind of a master he is!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 21:21:39 (EDT)
From: Sheindel
Email: shakti@itis.com
To: Malaysia
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
Hi.
I appreciate your sincerity. It is that which has brought you to yourSelf or Knowledge. Guru Maharaj Ji has just facilitated that process by pointing out the obvious. It is wonderful, isn't it?

Sheindel
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 21:53:53 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: Sheindel
Subject: Cover your butt, Sheindel
Message:
Not that I'm gonna, but you might be hanging your butt out by putting your email address out on the web like that Sheindel. And you might not want to use the account that your employer provides you to post stuff that some people might not like here or on some newsgroup.

Go get yourself a hotmail account if you really insist on posting your address for responses.

Unless you're the boss that is.

This is the lion's den Sheindel.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 22:03:24 (EDT)
From: sheindel
Email: None
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: Cover your butt, Sheindel
Message:
thanks, roger. i appreciate your tutelage, no shit. this is obviously my first encounter with such a site. very interesting. wonderful to reconnect with the jargon and memories of so many wide-eyed years ago, huh?
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 22:14:56 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: sheindel
Subject: Web Privacy tips
Message:
Well, you're welcome. Don't quite understand which side you are on, but don't want anybody to get messed up.

go to www.hotmail.com to get a free (although a bit lame, but owned by Microsoft) mail account that you can access on any machine connected to the web. Use that as a disposable mail account.

And be really careful about posting on NewsGroups (you usually access that through your email program.) You can configure your newsgroup mailer to not post your true email address by putting some bogus characters in it. Otherwise, you get loads of junk spam mail advertising things you'll never want like copy machine toner supplies and sex toys.

And unless your signing up or buying something that absolutely has to have your home address and phone number don't tell them anything real. I did that once and the telemarketers are all over me. The information goes right into databases and is often resold in a matter of days.

Me, I've got so many aliases, passwords, accounts that I don't know who the hell I am, but sometimes I'm a nice guy.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 22:21:34 (EDT)
From: sheindel
Email: None
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: Web Privacy tips
Message:
thanks, rog. i'll take your advice. i don't like to take a position. like to just stay amazed at the whole phenomenon. always was uncomfortable with his wealth but that might also be about my envy and hardship at that time, i don't know.
i didn't know he was a 'pervert' or adulterer. that stuff makes a difference to me. what do you 'know'?
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 22:38:47 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: sheindel
Subject: Pervert or Adulterer
Message:
Well, I don't know if he is a pervert or not. Perhaps, the reference was made in regards to the very substantiated allegations that Jagdeo was a child molester that Maharaji was told about, but never took real action to protect premies and their children from. Basically, Jagdeo was shipped to the South Pacific or Thailand for awhile to get him out of the west.

You can read about that in the Journey's section here on ex-premie.org for Journey's by A.J.W. and G's Mom.

As far as Maharaji being an Adulterer I'm not sure that there are any specific Journey entries, but there has been a lot of strong evidence by numerous people here on the Forum and, perhaps, one now. I wouldn't doubt this at all.

As far as his wealth maybe you're still thinking about the old days when he was wealthy, but now he's super wealthy. It's way beyond what it was in the old days. Yet, Elan Vital is always begging and guilting for more and more donations. And, see Roger's House of Drek Dettmers expose to get an idea of the corporate shell game that funneled lots of money to a Swiss Foundation.

Things have changed in the world of Knowledge and not for the better, I'm afraid.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 22:54:57 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: Pervert or Adulterer
Message:
The nearest thing to real facts about M's adultery was quite recently when someone mentioned a PAM lawyer who left because of M's adultery with various blonde premies.

Do we have any more information on this or even real proof?
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Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 13:24:44 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: sheindel
Subject: Web Privacy tips
Message:
This 'I don't want to take a stand' talk always amazes me. What would it take for you you take a stand? Do you take a stand on other issues in your life? How can anyone go through adulthood without taking stands? Just curious.
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Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 23:59:13 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: Web Privacy tips
Message:
Dear Roger,
A story...A dear friend started getting the ads as you mentioned but in the mail, he didn't have a computer. He got a envelope filled with singular shiny paper ads for different things. He had had it and wrote an elequent letter to the company, but he said it so much better :

I spent [so many] years in the army and I don't what your god damn army knife.
I am a gay man and have no desire for your satiny nighty.
etc. hysterical.
At the very end he say:
So just take me off your Universal Computer!

:)
Love,
Robyn
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