Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 44

From: Mar 30, 1999

To: Apr 19, 1999

Page: 4 Of: 5



Selene -:- selene reveals all -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 19:24:40 (EDT)
__selene - tami clone? -:- selene reveals all -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 20:12:15 (EDT)
____Robyn -:- selene reveals all -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 23:13:22 (EDT)

chr -:- an observation -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 18:06:19 (EDT)
__JW -:- an observation -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 18:44:12 (EDT)
____Mike -:- Good observation JW -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 19:07:01 (EDT)
____Zac -:- an observation -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 19:26:59 (EDT)
____Marianne -:- fear of posting -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 19:30:24 (EDT)
______Helen -:- fear of posting -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 02:18:24 (EDT)
________Helen -:- fear of posting -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 02:38:03 (EDT)
__________chr -:- fear of posting -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 05:07:55 (EDT)
____________bb -:- Cruiseing -:- Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 17:13:41 (EDT)
____Robyn -:- an observation -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 19:00:37 (EDT)
__Victoria -:- an observation -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 19:16:08 (EDT)
____chr -:- an observation -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 19:57:35 (EDT)
______Runamok -:- an observation -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 21:35:58 (EDT)
______Roger E. Drek -:- Believe it or not! -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 21:54:38 (EDT)
______Liz -:- an observation -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 19:50:45 (EDT)
__Jim -:- Yes, I agree -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 21:55:13 (EDT)
____bb -:- Yes, I agree -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 22:21:46 (EDT)
__Bobby -:- an observation -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 23:03:01 (EDT)
____Jim -:- What does that mean? -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 23:10:24 (EDT)
______Bobby -:- What does that mean? -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 23:47:51 (EDT)
____Runamok -:- reply to bobby -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 23:44:19 (EDT)
______Bobby -:- reply to runamok -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 00:04:52 (EDT)
________Runamok -:- reply to runamok -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 00:36:25 (EDT)
__________Robyn -:- reply to runamok -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 21:52:31 (EDT)
____________Runamok -:- reply to runamok -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 23:20:58 (EDT)
______________Robyn -:- reply to runamok -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 05:11:19 (EDT)
__Mary M -:- Pass the Template Please -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 07:58:53 (EDT)
____chr -:- Pass the Template Please -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 12:05:40 (EDT)
______JW -:- Pass the Template Please -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 14:07:23 (EDT)
________chr -:- Pass the Template Please -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 18:46:41 (EDT)
__AJW -:- an observation -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 19:36:05 (EDT)
__Liz -:- an observation -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 19:40:37 (EDT)

Roger E. Drek -:- Hometown Hero - Not -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 14:00:29 (EDT)
__Happy -:- Hometown Hero - Not -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 14:49:24 (EDT)
__Robyn -:- Hometown Hero - Not -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 17:36:58 (EDT)
____Jim -:- so did one of his classmates -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 22:41:30 (EDT)
______Robyn -:- so did one of his classmates -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 23:23:45 (EDT)
__Liz -:- Hometown Hero - Not -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 22:46:25 (EDT)

Jim -:- Liar!! -:- Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 23:33:24 (EDT)
__Jim -:- Her too -:- Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 23:37:07 (EDT)
____Jim -:- Check out Angel and Steven -:- Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 23:51:25 (EDT)
__JW -:- Love These Two Statements -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 01:13:49 (EDT)
____chr -:- Love These Two Statements -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 02:33:24 (EDT)
______Zac -:- Shades of George Washington -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 09:10:02 (EDT)
____Liz -:- Love These Two Statements -:- Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 23:02:01 (EDT)
__Runamok -:- 6 yr olds and the TRUTH -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 01:57:31 (EDT)
__Rick -:- Liar!! -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 15:13:49 (EDT)

JW -:- Cult v. Religion -:- Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 12:56:37 (EDT)
__Marianne -:- Cult v. Religion -:- Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 13:34:09 (EDT)
__Helen -:- Cult v. Religion -:- Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 17:37:50 (EDT)
____Street Premie -:- Cult v. Religion -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 14:47:29 (EDT)
__Jim -:- Line in the sand -:- Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 22:37:42 (EDT)
____nigel -:- Line in the sand -:- Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 23:05:02 (EDT)
______Jim -:- 'Sociobiologists?' I'll show y -:- Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 23:20:09 (EDT)
________nigel -:- How to be a sociobiologist... -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 05:25:27 (EDT)
__________g's mom -:- Nigel's just so story -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 11:11:15 (EDT)
__________SS&Masochist -:- big-headed baby men -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 12:26:48 (EDT)
____JW -:- Thanks, Jim -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 00:25:28 (EDT)
______g's mom -:- Hi JW and Jim and Mickey the P -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 11:22:56 (EDT)
________Mickey the Pharisee -:- Hi JW and Jim and Mickey the P -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 18:54:35 (EDT)
______Jim -:- Consistency? -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 11:41:49 (EDT)
________g's mom -:- here is a thought of mine -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 11:47:48 (EDT)
__________Jim -:- bad analogy (then off to work! -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 11:49:51 (EDT)
__________Victoria -:- here is a thought of mine -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 12:15:15 (EDT)
____________Happy -:- more on cults vs. religion -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 13:28:32 (EDT)
______________bb -:- a do do do a da da da -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 23:11:50 (EDT)
________________Jim -:- You wish, bb. You wish. (nt) -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 23:31:12 (EDT)
__________Diz -:- I like your analogy -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 04:12:39 (EDT)
________JW -:- Consistency? -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 12:58:59 (EDT)
__________Mike -:- Consistency? -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 14:02:01 (EDT)
____________Helen -:- Consistency? -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 15:07:42 (EDT)
______________Mike -:- Consistency? -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 15:21:10 (EDT)
__HALIP -:- Cult v. Religion -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 15:39:31 (EDT)

Marianne Bachers -:- My journeys entry -:- Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 00:05:03 (EDT)
__Runamok -:- your journey -:- Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 02:04:24 (EDT)
____Marianne -:- your journey -:- Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 11:55:04 (EDT)
__g's mom -:- your journeys entry -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 11:43:16 (EDT)

Sir David -:- Fed up of fat boy? -:- Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 21:05:39 (EDT)
__Roger Dodger Drek -:- dropping fat boy -:- Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 21:19:42 (EDT)
____Sir David -:- dropping fat boy -:- Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 07:48:51 (EDT)
__eric -:- naw, Jim's ok (nt) -:- Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 23:05:39 (EDT)

Zac -:- www.appreciation.org (nt) -:- Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 17:59:20 (EDT)
__Ben Lurking -:- www.appreciation.org (nt) -:- Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 18:33:29 (EDT)
____Zac -:- www.appreciation.org (nt) -:- Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 19:00:06 (EDT)
______Ben Lurking -:- www.appreciation.org (nt) -:- Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 19:45:20 (EDT)
________Roger E. Drek -:- Error 11001 Host not found -:- Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 21:08:50 (EDT)
__________A new website -:- to pick on -:- Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 23:18:38 (EDT)
____________Mike -:- to pick on -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 19:28:50 (EDT)

Jerry -:- Food for thought -:- Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 13:13:07 (EDT)
__Way -:- Food for thought -:- Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 13:31:23 (EDT)
____Jerry -:- URL -:- Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 14:52:07 (EDT)
__JW -:- Food for thought -:- Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 13:43:45 (EDT)
__crow znest -:- airlift time -:- Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 14:34:49 (EDT)
____scare crow -:- airlift time -:- Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 16:44:03 (EDT)
____Jerry -:- airhead time -:- Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 17:06:03 (EDT)
______JW -:- airhead time -:- Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 17:26:50 (EDT)
________Jerry -:- airhead time -:- Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 19:58:14 (EDT)
__________mr. richards -:- airhead time -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 07:04:20 (EDT)
__Liz -:- Food for thought -:- Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 15:23:08 (EDT)
__Diz -:- Food for thought -:- Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 09:30:44 (EDT)
____Victoria -:- Food for thought -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 12:45:39 (EDT)

TD -:- One Year Cult Free! Thanks! -:- Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 04:59:26 (EDT)
__barney -:- One Year Cult Free! Thanks! -:- Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 05:45:04 (EDT)
____TD -:- One Year Cult Free! Thanks! -:- Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 19:16:50 (EDT)
__Helen -:- One Year Cult Free! Thanks! -:- Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 09:59:51 (EDT)
____TD -:- One Year Cult Free! Thanks! -:- Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 19:21:27 (EDT)
__JW -:- One Year Cult Free! Thanks! -:- Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 13:53:06 (EDT)
____TD -:- One Year Cult Free! Thanks! -:- Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 19:51:45 (EDT)
______Selene -:- One Year Cult Free! Thanks! -:- Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 20:09:16 (EDT)
________TD -:- One Year Cult Free! Thanks! -:- Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 22:10:55 (EDT)
________Diz -:- Hey Selene -:- Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 09:14:56 (EDT)
__________Selene -:- Hey Selene -:- Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 13:01:10 (EDT)
__Robyn -:- One Year Cult Free! Thanks! -:- Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 20:22:25 (EDT)
____TD -:- One Year Cult Free! Thanks! -:- Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 22:13:01 (EDT)
______Diz -:- One Year Cult Free! Thanks! -:- Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 08:56:32 (EDT)
________TD -:- One Year Cult Free! Thanks! -:- Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 19:14:42 (EDT)
__Mickey the Pharisee -:- One Year Cult Free! Thanks! -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 13:55:16 (EDT)
____TD -:- One Year Cult Free! Thanks! -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 18:09:04 (EDT)

Roger Drek -:- Legal Fund - $1000 starter -:- Sun, Apr 04, 1999 at 17:33:54 (EDT)
__JW -:- Maharaji's Freaking Palace -:- Sun, Apr 04, 1999 at 22:01:43 (EDT)
____Mary M -:- Maharaji's Freaking Palace -:- Sun, Apr 04, 1999 at 23:17:08 (EDT)
______JW -:- Maharaji's Freaking Palace -:- Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 12:30:08 (EDT)
________Mary M -:- This could be fun -:- Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 20:44:10 (EDT)
________Roger E. Drek -:- YES! A festival in Malibu! -:- Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 21:01:16 (EDT)
________Victoria -:- Wearing MJ buttons -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 09:47:57 (EDT)
__________bb -:- Wearing MJ buttons -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 23:08:24 (EDT)
____Roger Drek -:- see it from the beach! -:- Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 03:12:23 (EDT)
______Jean-Michel -:- Picture from the beach! -:- Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 10:16:19 (EDT)
________Roger Drek -:- Wanted: Photo of Malibu! -:- Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 15:38:26 (EDT)
__________dv -:- How bout all his houses? -:- Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 21:35:06 (EDT)
____________Roger E. Drek -:- Yes, send pictures! -:- Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 21:43:20 (EDT)
______________Jean-Michel -:- Jet's pictures -:- Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 03:50:58 (EDT)
________________bb -:- anyone in LA area?? -:- Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 15:28:59 (EDT)
____________chr -:- How bout all his houses? -:- Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 18:21:25 (EDT)
______________Jean-Michel -:- How bout all his houses? -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 03:59:58 (EDT)

Brian -:- Marianne's Journey -:- Sun, Apr 04, 1999 at 00:11:01 (EST)
__barney -:- Marianne's Journey -:- Sun, Apr 04, 1999 at 04:54:37 (EDT)
__Katie -:- Marianne's Journey -:- Sun, Apr 04, 1999 at 09:53:53 (EDT)
__Miloochie -:- Marianne -:- Sun, Apr 04, 1999 at 12:22:49 (EDT)
____Gerry -:- Marianne -:- Sun, Apr 04, 1999 at 18:43:39 (EDT)
______crow bar -:- Christmas grinch and dinner -:- Sun, Apr 04, 1999 at 21:00:07 (EDT)
________Marianne Bachers -:- Christmas grinch and dinner -:- Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 00:35:25 (EDT)
__________JW -:- Christmas grinch and dinner -:- Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 14:10:53 (EDT)
____________Roger INXS Drek -:- God is a concept by which... -:- Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 15:54:49 (EDT)
______________Marianne -:- God is a concept by which... -:- Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 19:52:02 (EDT)
________________Helen -:- God is a concept by which... -:- Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 20:24:39 (EDT)
________________Roger Plagarist Drek -:- Hey, Writers she likes it! -:- Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 21:21:26 (EDT)
________________Robyn -:- God is a concept by which... -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 12:50:58 (EDT)
__________________Marianne -:- M was just a concept -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 18:29:13 (EDT)
____________________Victoria -:- Exempt in Denver -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 18:43:45 (EDT)
______________________Marianne -:- What was message to PAM's? -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 19:03:08 (EDT)
________________________Victoria -:- What was message to PAM's? -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 19:34:10 (EDT)
__________________________Marianne -:- Tis a gift to be evil -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 19:48:30 (EDT)
____________________________Victoria -:- Bill Patterson -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 20:16:47 (EDT)
______________________________Runamok -:- Bill Patterson -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 03:50:59 (EDT)
________________chr -:- God is a concept by which... -:- Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 05:27:29 (EDT)
____________Marianne -:- Christmas grinch and dinner -:- Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 19:41:01 (EDT)
______________JW -:- Christmas grinch and dinner -:- Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 20:17:49 (EDT)
__________Victoria -:- Christmas grinch and dinner -:- Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 10:09:03 (EDT)


Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 19:24:40 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: selene reveals all
Message:
well, not yet. Gotta get the right photographer.
I have a draft draft only started web page but it has a kinda
ok work picture. Some of you wanted to see me so I thought
what the hell, show em all.
Notice they don't even need to give me machines or manuals? That is how good I am - I just project to your screens from my psyche.
yeah right.
Anyway, my former agent and I need to coordinate future chronicles, and of course Ophelia is involved.
just thought you'd like to see what happens wehn I am sick with
time on my hands
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 20:12:15 (EDT)
From: selene - tami clone?
Email: None
To: all
Subject: selene reveals all
Message:
Forgot to give you the damned url
God I hate being sick.

http://ocean.ccit.arizona.edu
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 23:13:22 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: selene - tami clone?
Subject: selene reveals all
Message:
Dear, dear Selene,
Well hello there! :)
Well how nice to SEE you! Of course you do not look like I thought you would, mostly because I thought you had a mass of ringlets for hair like me! Still it is so good to see you. I am the only one left aren't I? When I see pictures of people I know and care about from here it is always fun and a kind of slap of reality. You are lovely. Thank you for revealing yourself.
Love you,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 18:06:19 (EDT)
From: chr
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: an observation
Message:
I have a couple of friends who were closely involved with M, both around him and with
the organisation. They have visited this site at various times but are reluctant to post. They still have things to work out re M and would like to discuss these on the forum , using it as a vehicle to resolve their issues. Their observation is that it is difficult to work things out in an atmosphere of goodwill on this forum, that as soon as someone disagrees or shows some confusion, ambivalence, or indicates that they haven't quite left M, they are abused and ridiculed. Some of the responses to Denise in the earlier threads are offensive and are just as problematic as threats of violence. Verbal abuse and bullying, calling people 'bitches' and 'cunts' when they disagree in some way, is a sure fire method of driving premies away who genuinly want to sort things out. It is not easy to eradicate M from one's life- if it was, then there would be no need for this forum. I would hope that my friends feel comfortable to post in future, as they have a lot to offer.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 18:44:12 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: chr
Subject: an observation
Message:
You might suggest to your friends that they e-mail ex-premies who they think might be more open to discussing these things and being more supportive. After working some things through, they might feel more confident about posting and the ex-premies they correspond with might be able to intervene on their behalf. For example, I would be happy to do that. There are other ex-premies as well who I'm sure would be supportive and would do the same.

The thing about the forum is that it is like getting up in front of an audience and trying to 'work things out.' It isn't very conducive for doing that because there are all kinds of people in the audience, some of whom don't have very good manners and/or enjoy throwing eggs at premies. It's like lighting up a cigarette in a room full of ex-smokers in an anti-smoking town like San Francisco or Berkeley and saying you aren't sure whether you should smoke or not. You will get clobbered by somebody. But the reaction is understandable, because they feel ripped off by Maharaji and the things premies say while 'working things out' can really push buttons.

It's been my experience that people can be more brutal on the internet because they can depersonalize the other person so easily. You don't see the fear, confusion, emotion, etc., that you would if you saw them in person, all the things that create empathy. This is why 'working things out' here is difficult, but it also can be very effective. Kind of like shock therapy.

They could also try posting anonymously, bring up issues on behalf of someone else, etc. But the nature of this type of forum is that your views and beliefs are going to get challenged, especially if you speak positively about Maharaji.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 19:07:01 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Good observation JW
Message:
JW: Might I add that the way in which questions are asked has alot to do with the response. For example: If a premie asks an honest question concerning 'why we left' or some such, then takes the answer that's given WITHOUT trying to defend M, then the response is likely to be pretty mild (cordial, if you will). If a premie asks a question, gets a response from an ex, then turns around and tries to defend M (on the EX-premie forum) then they are likely to open a real can-o-worms (IMHO).

Once they've learned how to do that, I think they would be surprised at the response (read that: civility)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 19:26:59 (EDT)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: CHR
Subject: an observation
Message:
I'd like to see your friends post here and I'd like the regulars around here to feel comfortable enough with their X ness that they simply share their experiences and how they have come to the conclusions and arguments etc. without blowing someone out of here.

I know that tearing apart someones post can be effective. When one of my posts was torn apart early on. I really had to rethink what I was thinking and it hurts sometimes.

When someone is disenchanted with M there is little need to pound it into their skulls. Just posting here as a premie is seen as rebellious in the premie world. It's just that if you are currently a premie and have been for years and years it takes time to digest all of this. You have to throw-up the programming and admit that you have been a complete and total programmed premie. Some times a little proping up might be more appropriate.

I think this should be a funhouse too, but until some premie proves they are just goofing with us I'd like to see more premies post. If they start pulling a 'shp' then poof they are fair game go ahead and toast 'em.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 19:30:24 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: chr
Subject: fear of posting
Message:
chr: I am new to this site. When I first came across it about a month ago, I was not sure how I felt about it. The comments seemed rabidly negative and nasty about DLM and GMJ in a way that bothered me. On the other hand, the information I was obtaining from the site was enlightening and helpful to me in solving riddles about these issues that I'd had for years. I posted a Journeys entry that took a long time and lots of reflection to write. The response was uniformly positive, encouraging and sympathetic. No one bit my head off or took offense at parts of my entry that described the positive parts of my experience with GMJ & DLM. While there might seem to be a bite to the commentary, the participants are interested in hearing from others and learning from their experiences. It is the only way we can sort out the truth. I also am willing to communicate by e-mail with anyone who is a bit fearful.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 02:18:24 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: fear of posting
Message:
At some point, we all get our heads bit off here. But we survive, dust ourselves off, and keep going. And it is okay.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 02:38:03 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Everyone & chr
Subject: fear of posting
Message:
Well, let me add to that. I don't think it's okay to call people bitches and cunts etc. That did go over the line. But Denise seemed to recover from it and handled herself & defended herself, and some other folks defended her too!

What I am trying to say is that it's not the worst thing in the world to be flamed or challenged here, to have someone 'yell' or get annoyed, etc. I think actually it's kind of therapeutic for us pleaser premie types to get in an adult discussion where we have to defend ourselves and be strong. To me that is what being an adult is all about, & unfortunately premie-hood kept us little children who ran to M's lap whenever anyone said 'boo'. The real world requires toughness.

Chr, I appreciate what you are saying but I think your friends will just have to plunge into the forum if they feel like it. One or two people here might bite their heads off, but there will be 15 people who will probably be supportive, and will answer their questions, help them out etc. The email idea is a great one. I emailed back & forth with Brian before I posted because the internet was new to me, and I was afraid I'd get addicted, I didn't want to get into a victim type trip, and I WAS intimidated by the banter here. But Brian helped me get over it and I am not intimidated anymore & I didn't get into a victim trip. But I did get addicted!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 05:07:55 (EDT)
From: chr
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: fear of posting
Message:
You are all right, of course. I suspect that the people I referred to have held on to certain perspectives about M that they don't want to let go of. It's a shame because they were both personally very hurt by M and some of his actions towards them. It's a bit like the abused child who still holds on to the abusive parent. BTW I have not personally felt intimidated or attacked by anyone here and have never had any problem posting despite Jim's dislike of my pseudonym. Actually, Jim , the chr was an accident. When I first posted 18 months ago I somehow knocked off the last 2 letters , so I just decided to leave it. It was supposed to be Chris. I hope that meets more with your approval. :)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 17:13:41 (EDT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: chr
Subject: Cruiseing
Message:
I like chr.
It is like a TM mantra.
No association with anything.
Now you have me running down my list of Chris's to find
last names to guess.
Chris from deca? I cannot remember his last name but I will.
Oh yeah,
Chris Cruise?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 19:00:37 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: JW
Subject: an observation
Message:
Dear Chr and JW,
I don't know what help I can be because I am not so driven about M but when I was here more often a lot of lurkers emailed me because they knew I would be kind and understanding and yet honest and try to help them away from the cult. I love the conversational aspect of the forum but feel strongly that it is really here to help people to avoid getting in or to help getting out of the cult.
Love,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 19:16:08 (EDT)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: chr
Subject: an observation
Message:
chr and friends:

Somebody set up a flame-free forum, but it was just too boring...some guy named Keith kept posting a lot of drivel...oops!

We don't have a special forum for Aspiring Ex's the way M has his organization set up. This is it. All kinds of people here, more like the real world, where people can say whatever they think.

Your friends are free to ignore posts which they feel to be insulting or offensive. There are plenty of nice exes and even exes who are sometimes nice and sometimes not-nice. We don't have to pretend to be happy all the time.

I remember crying on the bus and all the premie brothers and sisters getting as far away from me as possible. I was in my mind! When somebody cries on the forum, or gets belligerant, it is okay...we are EX-premies with a full range of emotions, not just happy-nice-nice ones.

I've heard it again and again, this forum does a lot of good for a lot of people. You can have my e-mail address if you want it, but I was a very insignificant speck of dust just yearning to land near the master's feet. Would like to help your premie friends, but not sure how?

Victoria
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 19:57:35 (EDT)
From: chr
Email: None
To: Victoria
Subject: an observation
Message:
I agree with all the posts above. I'm not referring to died in the wool premies who post here to simply stir things up. The people I'm talking about are ex's who still have things to sort out and want to do it in a rational manner. I have pointed out to them that the majority of people on the forum are usually civil. I suppose that I have a vested interest in them feeling comfortable here as they have a lot to share. One in particular spent a great deal of time around M over a 16 year period. I see nothing wrong with a good challenge or debate or anger, but statements such as ' who gives a shit, bitch'etc made without provocation, don't enhance any sort of argument or discussion. All I'm asking is that people have a little courtesy- I certainly don't want a flame free forum. From what I saw of the earlier one, it became a forum for quasi new age drivel. I think sometimes we forget the space that M took us to. It's quite insidious, and it controlled the way we thought, acted and our whole perspective on life. There's a lot to untangle for many premies and at the point of leaving they can be quite vulnerable. BTW I do think this is a good place to work things out and many have done it here quite successfully. I would just like to think that they can do it before they are chased away.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 21:35:58 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: chr
Subject: an observation
Message:
I seem to have become a heavy in terms of dissing premies.

The people who are problematic are those who want to debate Miragey's merits here where it's understood that there isn't much credit to give him. But it's especially those who are serial debaters and insist on arguing for M over and over. (Like I haven't had years of it before they showed up.)

The email thing is a good option, too. I offered Shp my email more than once, not that he noticed. That was basically in the hopes of removing the satsang bs from the forum.

I think if they don't try to satsang us, there is no big prob. People are actually pretty supportive. Again, looking at Shp, he had tons of supportive posting before the Sht hit the Shp.

I think the posts with Denise were mostly due to a muddying of the waters with all the shpsht.

Anyway, Goomiragey's not so bad.. for a dictatorial cult leader who abuses people by the thousands. Or... is he?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 21:54:38 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: chr
Subject: Believe it or not!
Message:
Yes, when I first visited the Forum close to two years ago I think I was looking for interesting insider stories about Maharaji. I was still a premie at that time.lousy poetry, and the obligation to meditate whether I wanted to or not.

Because I really always had a good experience in many darshan

After Long Beach '96 and '97 (drip, drip.) I had had enough of seeing the same videos locally again and again, local politics, premies, premies doing service so anally, the trinket halls, the experiences and even some personal up close experiences of very short duration with Maharaji I was deeply hooked on him and blamed the organization and premies. I reserved my judgement about Maharaji.

However, only a short time ago after hanging around here and reading and reading about all the junk and things like Jagdeo and doing my expose of Michael Dettmers and the 100 million dollar Swiss Foundation at Roger's House of Drek (Dettmers Expose) has pushed me off the fence and I believe that Maharaji is a corrupt fraud. Of course, I was critically skeptical of all claims of corruption and fraud perpetuated by Maharaji and attributed the evil deeds to misguided premies.

Until that point in time, I mostly avoided the subject and read about it. I did post once that I was always keeping the door open in case I wanted to go back. I didn't really get jumped on, but was asked some tough questions which I mostly dodged.

Basically, it's taken me a year to come to the conclusion that Maharaji is a fraud.

Yeah, it can be scary and challenging. And it is hard to accept the belief that you beliefs and assumptions were wrong for so many years and this Guru that you loved so much might not be such a nice guy. It's really big stuff and might not be so easy to just move on and get a life, as we hear them say so often.

Unable to resist a self-serving plug now that my ego has started to return: Maybe your friends can visit the House of Drek to get softened up by some light reading first. The Best of the Forum section might be a good place to check out. The Chronicles of the Red Nighty at the House is good for a laugh after a heavy day of reading the hard stuff.

Also, the journey by A.J.W. here on ex-premie.org is an excellent piece of work that is funny, fair, honest, and very elightening from someone who was pretty close to the inner circle.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 19:50:45 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: chr
Subject: an observation
Message:
Hear Hear!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 21:55:13 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: chr
Subject: Yes, I agree
Message:
Chr,

Before I agree, though, I have to take you to task -- yet again -- for maintaining an improunceable psuedonym. If this were MY page ....

Anyway, chr, I'm with you. I cringe at some of the stuff thrown at Denise. I won't mention any names except to say mine isn't one of them. I don't regret my pushing Denise on the point I did though (Maharaji's discouragement of any study of his trip). The discussion got to that point and I just followed my nose. No regrets. None. If your friends' concerns are about that kind of confrontation, they have my sympathy but I'd only say they should just keep on lurking if they're all so afraid of their own thought process as it's inevitably articulated in discussion.

Was it right for me to openly question whether Denise would end up another Shp? Oh Christ, who knows? She'd answered me in a way I still can't countenance as full-on-cross-your-heart sincere (sorry!) so I questioned her commitment to heartfelt discussion here. Did that hurt her feelings? She's never said so. So what would have been the bad effect of my saying so? None that I know.

But some of the names she was called and such -- WHY? I don't think she ever invited such ire. But, then again, that's just me.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 22:21:46 (EDT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yes, I agree
Message:
Runamok may have hit it when he said she came in the midst
of a shp storm.
Also Denise did get satsang from shp which infuriated
those who didn't want the forum used as an aspirant
outreach center.

I didn't post to her.
I think CHR's freinds would say reasonable sentences and
with this warning/request from him, we will all be on our
best behaviour.
For the sake of history, since this cult may last quite some
time due to the level of zealotry inbred into so many
courtesy of the propaganda, having people come here to
debrief themselves of inside information is one of the
most responsible things they can do and I won't be
an obstacle to that.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 23:03:01 (EDT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: chr
Subject: an observation
Message:
I know lots of people who are turned off by the invective and so won't post. To me this represents a loss.

The following guidelines for online exhange is from the WELL, a pioneering, spirited conferencing system that has been electronic for 14 years. (Just got bought by Salon today btw). With over 200 conferences, the WELL is high-caliber discussion threaded through topics just like we find here.

I'd love to see more intelligent, supportive, fun, funny communication happen here. People should be free to argue, to fully emote but not to personally attack. I see a real difference between anger and hurt directed to others. I've said this stuff before here. I don't expect things to change, too many seem perfectly happy with the medium. Just my thoughts.

---------------------------------------

The free-wheeling WELL was launched in 1985 with minimal rules. The aphorism crafted to greet users at the time was:

You Own Your Own Words.

Recently this now classic and carefully-tended policy has been expanded into the WELL Member Agreement with detailed explanations of the implications of 'YOYOW,' as members refer to it.

WELL Policies and Etiquette

The WELL, as a community, functions on mutual respect and cooperation.

Computer conferencing is quite different from face-to-face communication. Only your words travel over the network -- the facial expressions, tone of voice, and other live conversational nuances are completely absent from discussions on The WELL.

Please pay careful attention to how you wield those words. Teasing and sarcasm, for example, often don't travel well -- that's why people sometimes type symbols such as

:-)

(look at it sideways) when they want others to know a statement is meant to be humorous.

Remember that words you enter in a burst of inspired passion or indignant anger will be there for you (and everyone) to read long after your intense feelings are gone. This isn't meant to discourage spontaneity and the expression of feelings on The WELL, but merely to remind you of the long-term existence and effects of what you write.

You may, from time to time, find yourself in disagreement with someone on The WELL. At times like this, keep in mind that it's safer, more polite, and more persuasive to take issue with that person's comments, rather than attacking them personally.

People on The WELL generally avoid 'obscene' language (no, we aren't going to try to define that here), except in Conferences where such language is acceptable. There are no rigid rules about this. Just remember that we are a diverse community of individuals with varying standards, and there may be minors present.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 23:10:24 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: What does that mean?
Message:
You Own Your Own Words.

Bobby,

Did it ever occur to you that the reason new agers (like the crafters of the above empty statement) are so sensitive to sarcasm is that they're purposely flying too loose for close scrutiny? Just a thought.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 23:47:51 (EDT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What does that mean?
Message:
New-agers, the WELL?

Hardly. The WELL represents a whole range of folks, many highly intelligent and cutting edge. Most of these participants wouldn't be considered as 'new-age' by any stretch. I really appreciate the sense of community.

I suggest you check out the WELL more closely. You obviously don't know what it's about.

The WELL
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 23:44:19 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: reply to bobby
Message:
There's an inherent disagreement between people who follow the BM and people who have left him, even though you may seek to minimize that difference personally and on the forum. Maybe you want an ex-premie cyber hangout to socialize with premies who feel like posting, but I really don't.

Again:
There's an inherent disagrement between people who follow the BM and people who have left him.

There may be merit in seeking out netiquette guidelines that can improve the forum, but we're not like the Well, in the sense that we can expect an division as long as premies are going to participate here.

Negative posting isn't the only possible problem area. New age and spriritual agendas are fair play, too. Should we restrict the discussion of spirituality while we restrict personal criticism?

Likewise, the use of the forum for personal, rather than community agendas may be hampering our growth. Long threads about personal situations kept me away from the forum for a year. I really didn't want a social grouping without the stated purpose of dealing with our ex-cultishness.

Again:
There may be merit in seeking out netiquestte quidelines that can improve the forum.

But if I were you I would enjoy the complexity, legal in the post-Mirage universe that we inhabit. It'd be nice if someone could go, 'C'mon everybody, how about if we have peace on earth now,' but it never really was that simple, think?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 00:04:52 (EDT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: reply to runamok
Message:
Again, you speak for yourself.

I believe in heterogenity, not homogonization. There are all kinds of people here. You want to draw lines into us versus them. You think you got all the answers? You talk like you do. I resent your attitude!

I've been an ex for many years. I have my own personal ways that I've used to think and re-think my involvement with Maharaji. I come here for several reasons. There are some great people, I like the stories. What does it all mean anyway? That Maharaji is one big fat fraud? Fine! I don't care. Good and bad is in every situation. I take the good. And I work with and through the bad.

So far, for the most part, it is my contention that you have not heard, or are not interested in what I have to say. That's fine! Just don't impose your shit on me. I don't want it. You have very strong personal filters. By and large I don't think it is very fruitful to converse with you. You strike me as a very unkind person, despite your little 'I'm actually a nice guy' little plugs amongst your tirades. I don't read most of your posts for that reason.

I realize that my post here actually is somewhat more heated than your own, but hey, maybe its the radiation, but it is my message.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 00:36:25 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: reply to runamok
Message:
Bobby, I really wasn't out to attack you. I did actually address very specific issues but my guess is it hits to close to home. Didn't you just post on this thread asking for people not to get personally vicious?

'Just don't impose your shit on me', you said, sounding kinda personal.

'You strike me as a very unkind person, despite your little 'I'm actually a nice guy' little plugs amongst your tirades,' again you, and not exactly issue oriented.

You see, Bobby, keeping the forum focused and hence somewhat less heterogenous CAN keep the personality stuff. But you want to get personal. Isn't this what you were saying shouldn't happen?

'I don't read most of your posts for that reason,' you said. Isn't that nice? I'm sure that's an excellent framework for your judgement to function in. But ironic because you have accused me of not reading yours more than once.

'So far, for the most part, it is my contention that you have not heard, or are not interested in what I have to say.' No, I usually read yours. I don't respond to most because you post mostly about your problems.. and I don't want to criticize you in that context. As I said, personal postings turned me off the most when I first lurked - TWO years ago (excuse me-not 1).

I'm sure that is why you are so pissed off but the statement is not directed at you specifically, and I am not proposing that personal posting is inappropiate. You are the person discussing appropriate and inappropriate posting. I am responding saying that you're oversimplifying the pic.

I know you're going through some tough times. I'm sorry but if it's too hot in the kitchen... you know the drill.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 21:52:31 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Runamok
Subject: reply to runamok
Message:
Dear Runamok,
'No, I usually read yours. I don't respond to most because you post mostly about your problems.. and I don't want to criticize you in that context.'
I hope you aren't put off that Bobby and others in the past and hopefully in the future, feel comfortable seeking SUPPORT from those who post here. I don't think Bobby is just whinning about his problems but looking for emotional support through a very intense experience. If I found myself in an intense situation of any type where I needed to reach out to people here I would do the same and in fact have in the past and recieved much support. It is one of the best parts of the forum for me, an old ex who didn't have a bad time of it or a very long stint in the cult.
Maybe some wouldn't reach out in the same way but I'd like to think we are here to support each other as well as helping people out or from getting into the cult.
Love,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 23:20:58 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: reply to runamok
Message:
I agree with you. There's nothing wrong in the abstract with asking for support. Sometimes, it's more of an off-topic than others. Sometimes, it's related to not having developed coping skills as a premie because everything revovled around the cult. Your personal posts have that kind of tone for me.

I remain anonymous, at least for now. The kinda stuff that Bobby posts is the opposite of anonymity. Understand? I sometimes have crises but don't bring them to the forum.

My main reason for posting anonymously is security. Call me superstitious or nostalgic in a perverse way, but being publicly against the forum was not an option when I left. It wasn't safe! The premie flamers can say what they want but I could simply could have been attacked by premies if I had gone on tv or radio and denounced M. And it was a real option but I didn't feel like risking my body when I had already wasted part of my life.

Since Bobby's trying to suggest guidelines which would restrict intense personal criticism, I thought it worth raising these issues.

If we are supporting each other as ex-premies, than a discussion of what an ex-premie is seems reasonable, right? But Bobby gets mad, because I think an ex-premie should tell M to kiss off. Bobby says stuff about M never did him wrong or however he phrases it. That M was an important phase in his spiritual growth. He also says, as Shp loved to say, that he doesn't want to draw a definite line between what an ex and what a premie is. I think that's crap.

And then he also got abusive when his original post was about restricting abusiveness.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 05:11:19 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Runamok
Subject: reply to runamok
Message:
Dear Run,
I will reply in email but, just for the record, (everytime I write that I think of eb :), I had no problems while I was in the cult. I was only told about the meditation in the beginning and although after seeing LOTU again I realized I DID all those crazy things and I would get into discussions with the Christian Townies that would come out to the farm to convert us, I never attributed my experience with K as coming from M, I felt it was withing the realm of human experience and I still feel that way. I lived in a premie house in NJ and handed my paycheck over without a qualm but when I moved to the farm and the house father and mother came to fetch me back I told them forget it. I would live where I wanted. It wasn't so much a Drip as it was inconsievable to me that someone try to make me do something I didn't want to do, I was fine with handing over the paycheck thing.
'Sometimes, it's related to not having developed coping skills as a premie because everything revovled around the cult. Your personal posts have that kind of tone for me.'
I think my problems with undeveloped coping skills comes from my childhood family and the fact that there was no coping with it because it was always bad but the rules were always changing so there was no way to stop any of the violence and as the one pigeon holed into the role of peacemaker I was always trying. Now that may be why the cult seemed appealing, peace and love and all but it didn't cause me any hard ship.
Actually it wasn't until I found the forum that I even realized that M was an asshole and a fraud. I guess I did believe he was god but I am just not that religious, it didn't hold me. Maybe the difference between me and Bobby or me and anyone who feels the way he does is that I do have a reaction now that I know what hell M was more than willing to put his devotee's through. Knowing that doesn't make my own experience any different but I now see M as a fraud and corrupt.
I have many here I now call friends and I for this discussion in particular I will say that I do love Bobby and want to support what he is going through at this time and I can get beyond our differences in opinion about M because I know that all people do not think or feel the same and that it is OK to and even desirable to NOT have that.
One more hour until I have to get up so I will sign off and email you tomorrow.
Love,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 07:58:53 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: chr
Subject: Pass the Template Please
Message:
Hi Chris,

I stumbled into the Forum not knowing who was who... premie vs ex.

Just give me a heads up when your friends come in and I'll use a template that's so WASPY they'll love it here ;-) You know what I mean?

The white fluffy cloud in the blue sky is so pretty today.

The morning dew is shimmering on the gardenia petal and I am sooo grateful.

When I wash my socks I am thrown into ecstasies beyond this world.

Then again Orlando has dubbed me disgraceful and I wasn't even trying to tick he/she off! I think it was my reference to divine smegma.

So all I can do is warn your friends that my fingers can get carried away sometimes!

Love,
Mary
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 12:05:40 (EDT)
From: chr
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: Pass the Template Please
Message:
There's no way any of them would be offended by your posts , Mary. And please don't be waspish , one of them is Jewish and I am sort of too- my father was Jewish and my mother is of welsh descent, so I've never quite decided what I'm supposed to be.
Seriously, we're talking about intelligent people who spent quite some time around M and have recognised that they were damaged by their involvement. These are people who knew M personally over a long period of time, but feel that there is a pressure to be a certain way and follow a particular line of thinking on this forum. I don't necessarily agree with them, but I can understand why that is their perception.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 14:07:23 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: chr
Subject: Pass the Template Please
Message:
Seriously, we're talking about intelligent people who spent quite some time around M and have recognised that they were damaged by their involvement.These are people who knew M personally over a long period of time, but feel that there is a pressure to be a certain way and follow a particular line of thinking on this forum. I don't necessarily agree with them, but I can understand why that is their perception.

I know from my own experience, that if you spent a long time in the cult, especially if you were high up in the organization, by the time you get to the point where you are leaving it, you don't have much self-esteem and you have a lot of fears. This was true in my case. Maharaji and his cult destroy self-esteem, because one's identity is entirely entwined with an image of Maharaji and if you question and leave it, you leave your identity and self-esteem as well. This is why many premies stay. It's very threatening to question and leave it and so it's easier just to hang on, even though you aren't having a very good time.

So, I can understand why your friends would be fearful about posting. They are probably fairly fragile at the moment, but I think they really would get a fair amount of support here -- most of us can remember the devestation we felt when the whole trip came crashing down around us and can empathize. But the truth is, it really is up to the individual to take the leap. No one can do it for them. If they want to be free from the programming, they have to jump outside of it. It's scary at first, but we can all testify that we are very glad we did it. If they post that they don't want to be a premie anymore, but are confused about some things, or want to work through some things, I think they will get nothing but support.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 18:46:41 (EDT)
From: chr
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Pass the Template Please
Message:
Their reaction to the forum had been bugging me for a while and then the replies to Denise triggered off the post. Like many things, having expressed it, it doesn't seem so important now.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 19:36:05 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: anthginn@yahoo.com
To: chr
Subject: an observation
Message:
Hi Chr,

I can understand your friend’s misgivings about working things out here on the forum. I feel uncomfortable about some of the stuff that goes down here, particularly personal attacks on people I know.

When I came out of the cult I had lots of new feelings and ideas, nowhere to put them and nobody to discuss them with. My wife and my closest friends were all premies, many of them spending lots of time around Maharaji. Discussing things with them always came to a locked door. The Forum here is a place where you can do this, but like Jim said above, it’s a public place. Free speech rules and standing on a soapbox in front of a crowd of strangers isn’t always the best place to bare your intimate feelings.

Anyway, if your friends want to communicate by e-mail to discuss anything they’re shy about mentioning on the forum, the same as Marianne, I’ll be happy to communicate with them by e-mail. Tell them to start the message, ‘Chr said to write

Adios,

Anth.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 19:40:37 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: chr
Subject: an observation
Message:
I agree with you Chr and hope that your friends find this a safe space to air their grievances and work things out for themselves, and come to their own conclusions with out any harrassment from the forum. I look forward to reading their posts.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 14:00:29 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Hometown Hero - Not
Message:
I was recently in communication with a student (unnamed) of St. Joesph's Academy in Dehra Dun. St. Joesph's Academy is the grade school that Maharaji claims he was educated at and makes it sound like he received much more than a ninth grade education on his Journey at www.maharaji.org

I told the student that Guru Maharaji was from Dehra Dun and had attended St. Joesph's Academy. The student replied that he didn't know of Maharaji and had never heard of him.

Also, years ago a friend of mine was in Dehra Dun and talked to the headmaster of St. Joesph's Academy and the headmaster said that Maharaji was a goof off.

Hari today, gone tomorrow.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 14:49:24 (EDT)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: Hometown Hero - Not
Message:
It just proves - once more - how insignificant he really is, and how gullible his disciples are.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 17:36:58 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: Hometown Hero - Not
Message:
Dear Roger,
'the headmaster said that Maharaji was a goof off.'
Now there's a surprize!
Love,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 22:41:30 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: so did one of his classmates
Message:
About ten years ago, I met this girl who'd gone to school with him. She said he was jsut a regular guy. Can't remember exactly what she said but she left me with the impression that she wasn't impressed.

Mind you, I wonder what would happen if you talk to MY hometown crew. Mind you further, I never once claimed to be God in Human Form. A Wild and Crazy Guy perhaps but that's about it.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 23:23:45 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: so did one of his classmates
Message:
Dear Jim,
'I wonder what would happen if you talk to MY hometown crew.'
Well shit, since you mentioned it so would I! :) You could have some of them visit like my daughter and friend did a couple of weeks ago.
Forget about BM, we all knew that he speaks like an imbecile so it is no surprize to me he was a dolt in school. But I would LOVE to know what you were like as a kid!
I will apologize for my closing in advance but you were just so pleasant in this post I got carried away.
Love,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 22:46:25 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: Hometown Hero - Not
Message:
He definately did go to St. Josephs Academy, for what it's worth (who cares).

The headmaster remembered him. Your friend must have been there at a different time.

I remember a post about another class-mate of M's. She thought he wasn't up to much as well.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 23:33:24 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Liar!!
Message:
Okay, I'm having a moment. But what do you expect hwen you read drivel like this new entry over on ELK? It's by Michael Borden:

'Two things happened when I was six or seven that I think about even now. First grade, learning about numbers. 'Thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen. Can anyone tell me what we call numbers like these?' I raised my hand: 'The teens?' 'Very good.'

And I vividly remember the fear I felt that I had gotten it right. 'I'm six years old. If a six-year old can figure things out, everyone here's in a whole lot of trouble. Who's in charge here? I hope someone smarter is running the show.'

I say this story's a pure lie. There's no way in the world a kid like that's not going to simply enjoy getting the right answer. This guy is completely bullshitting his audience and niether he nor they give a damn. AS IF it matters that he tell the truth. Look at their teacher, after all. Still, it really bugs me the way premies can be such phony shmucks. I'd love to go back to that six year-old kid and ask him how he feels about his right answer being used, years later, as a fishing lure for a cult. Asshole. This guy's so fake he reminds me of all the other premies who post on ELK. The worst part, though, is down below.

The second thing was getting color TV and watching the gray infield turn a lush, wonderful green. This is satisfying. This feels right. And black and white was never good enough ever again.

Echoes of both of these experiences surface in my life today as I enter my 24th year of practicing Knowledge: the feeling that there's little to justify relying on the world's prescriptions for happiness; and that Knowledge has brought a lush, wonderful dimension to life and that anything less just isn't good enough.

On one level my life is ordinary: kids, career, mortgage, et cetera. And all too often it's the 'et cetera' that comes first. But Knowledge lets me also experience my life as a breathtaking gift. And given the choice of worrying about the stock market or experiencing simple gratitude that I happen to be alive, I'll go with the gratitude, thank you very much. What's precious about practicing Knowledge, in fact, is that very thing: you get to choose how you want to go through life, instead of always being at the mercy of circumstance.

The key to all of this and there's no point in fudging it is Maharaji.

Imagine the best teacher you ever had. Someone who made learning an adventure, filled with empowering inspiration and delightful fun. Someone you'll never forget, who has shaped your life and shown you what it means to truly understand something. You're extraordinarily lucky to come across that kind of teacher if the subject is, say, math or geology. When the subject is fulfilment and the quality of your life itself, lucky doesn't begin to describe it.

EINSTEIN AND MOZART
I often feel that learning from Maharaji is like having Einstein as your physics tutor, or Chopin or Bach coming to your house to teach you piano. Their mastery of the subject is undeniable. Their immersion in its pleasure is wonderful and contagious. For me Maharaji is a caring professor whose commitment to me is far beyond question. And like a master comedian he's able to shed light on the obvious in ways I hadn't seen it before. Spend some time with him and pretty soon you wish he lived in your house and you could hang out with him forever.

Yes, and Reverand Moon is the all-glorious sun in the eastern sky. What is this garbage? Maharaji serves the same completely incoherent fourth-hand spiritual slop that's long since lost its last morsel of infested meat and is now little more than thin, vile gruel, and these guys call in months in advance for reservations. I don't think it's a threat so much as a compulsion I'll tell you now I will never act on: I want to squeeze this guy's face. I have these little toy things. You stick your fingers in the back and they're grotesque faces you can squeeze and make even weirder. I want a premie face like that. I want a Maharaji face, a Marolyn face. I want a Charanand face. I want a Maharaji 'Punch and Judy' show, with Satpal and Prempal doing it right. I want to laugh full throttle at all this and, please, please, please, prety please, I want all the premies to finally join in on the joke.

Practicing Knowledge is one of the juiciest experiences you'll ever come across. There's nothing else like it anywhere on earth.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 23:37:07 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Her too
Message:
Okay, here's another face that needs a big fat 'cootchie cootchie koo!':

'The first time I had any interest in the Internet was when someone told me that Maharaji had a web page, and that Enjoying Life was another site where one could participate. So thanks, because technology is on our side.

How I enjoy myself every time I visit 'www.maharaji.org' and ' www.enjoyinglife.org'!

And with the sweet feeling that comes from my 'Innernet' when I visit the Enjoying Life page on the Internet, everything fits together under one common denominator: fulfilment.'
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 23:51:25 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Check out Angel and Steven
Message:
If you're looking for 'cult' with a bit of an old testament feel, go to CD's premie page and read a bit of Angel and Steven. I had to but in, I just couldn't help it:

You two sound like extremely closed-off fundamentalists of some religion or other. It really doesn't matter which at this level. Did you know that? Pompous ignoramuses like you in particular, Angel, are nothing new. Tell me, what do you think of Maharaji's brother, Satpal? Nothing, right? Ha! You don't know what you're allowed to think of him so you can't really answer that. You poor, poor premies. Hang in there, guys.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 01:13:49 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Love These Two Statements
Message:
For me Maharaji is a caring professor whose commitment to
me is far beyond question


Yes, it's beyond question, because if you question it you realize there is no basis for believing this. It's a nice thing to believe but it's completely false. Maharaji has never shown any concern, whatsoever, for any of his premies, except to the extent he could get something from them.

Spend some time with him and pretty soon you wish he lived in your house and you could hang out with him forever.

Well then, I guess this just doesn't work for me. What happened to me was that being around Maharaji, other than at programs, was SO negative and awful and I vowed to stay away from him or I knew I wouldn't be a premie for long.

This guy Michael has been engaging in 24 years of wishful thinking and wasting a whole lot of his life in the process. It is very sad.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 02:33:24 (EDT)
From: chr
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Love These Two Statements
Message:
Believe me, this guy does not know what he is talking about. Nobody who has been around M for any reasonable periods of time, outside of programs, would want him living in their house. For one thing , he'll spend all your money- and I mean ALL-until every last scrap is gone. And that's just in the first two days. Then he'll expect you to go out and get more from somewhere. You can forget about rest, sleep, leisure, in fact any personal life at all. Then again who needs a personal life when you've got someone of the calibre of Einstein and Bach living with you.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 09:10:02 (EDT)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: chr
Subject: Shades of George Washington
Message:
For one thing , he'll spend all your
money- and I mean ALL-until every last scrap is gone.

Didn't George Washington have an agreement during the Revolutionary War that he would receive no salary, but take only his expenses, which turned out to astronomical.

Free knowledge, just cover my expenses to spread knowledge to the world.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 09, 1999 at 23:02:01 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Love These Two Statements
Message:
The last thing I would call M is a caring professor. He doesn't give a shit about anyone who doesn't line his pockets.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 01:57:31 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: 6 yr olds and the TRUTH
Message:
I think there's more irony in the statement that the guy couldn't believe in a 6 year old having the answer- since he chose to follow a messiah who proclaimed himself to be one at 6! Otherwise, the guy was vaguely believable (or should I say slightly, meaning maybe), in that a little kid might feel embarassed or overwhelmed by the audience of 20 or 30 little kids.

The Einstein/Mozart stuff really is a load of crap, but they're shovelling this stuff heavy since the incarnation rap is now deemed politically incorrect. Yes, many high school dropouts (or junior high dropouts like Mirage) are very good at video games. and your personal and caring 'pinball wizard' can be yours today. But Mozart? Einstein? Give me a vomit bag, please. It is really a disgusting load of rubbish after all M has done to discourage the intellect and the pursuit of thought for him to pose in this way. As a Leonardo. Puke.

Mozart, Chopin and Einstein all did a some starving in their time. Not exactly slick and flashy types, after all.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 15:13:49 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Liar!!
Message:
I haven't read this whole thread so I don't know if anyone's already said this. I don't think the guy is lying. I think he's convinced himself that he thought this as a six year old. Naturally it's absurd and I don't believe he felt that way anymore than you.

So either he's imagining it happened that way, or in trying to make his point he got swept way in exagerration. Obviously, he's selling something (duhh) that isn't easy to sell.

I think part of his point is that people's knowledge is limited and when one is assigned an inordinate amount of reverence, it can be scary. That's true, as far as it goes (if only maharaji had this fear as an 8 year old).

So although his example is bogus for a six-year old, it holds up as an idea. I guess it's easier to accept a refrigerator salesman fudging a story, than it is to accept someone selling religion.

The part where he really fell off the track is where he assigns maharaji the reverence that he found inappropriate for himself. Maharaji, as we know, is pissing in the wind like the rest of us. Or worse. Yes, definitely worse.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 12:56:37 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Cult v. Religion
Message:
I ran accross an article by Dr. Dan Feaster, a Board Member of CULTinfo, now called the Leo J. Ryan Education Foundation about the difference between a cult and a religion. Feaster acknowledges that religions can be healthy or unhealthy, depending on the way they treat their followers, but a cult is an extreme group that shows excessive dedication to a particular leader. He also acknowledges that religions can become extreme and take on the characteristics of cults.

I thought the following comparisons between what he calls a 'healthy' religious group (non-cult-like, I guess like the Unitarians) and a cult were interesting and very true in my experience of having been in Maharaji's cult:

1. Healthy religions respect individuals' rights and freedom. Cults try to enforce compliance.

2. Conversion to religions involves unfolding of internal processes. Cultic conversion involves an unaware surrender to external forces that don't care for individual personal identity.

3. Healthy religions encourage questions and critical thinking. Cults discourage questions and critical thinking. [Oh, how true!]

4. Religions have clear expectations about membership. Cults tend to be unclear initially about membership expectations. [Yes.]

5. Religions value and support the family. Cults often view the family as an enemy to be conquered. [You're better off without a wife, anyway.]

6. Religions allow members to leave without repercussion. Cults threaten, frighten and sometimes coerce members not to leave. [Have you gone to hell or seen your rotten vegetables today, or have you smashed into a million pieces recently?]

7. Religions encourage psychospiritual integration. Cults split the self between a good self and a bad self. [Does this sound like M's line about your 'true self' and the 'mind?']

8. Healthy religions practice truthfulness and integrity in practices. Cults often encourage lies and deception to accomplish their goals. [There are just too many examples here to mention.]

9. Cults claim their doctrines are infallible and can't be verified by others outside the group, and often claim that they can't be understood by rational thought. [Sanford H. Pass is the latest example of this phenomenon.]

10. Religions view money as a means to an end, subject to ethical guidelines. Cults view money as an end in itself, not subject to ethical guidelines. [Again, too many examples to mention.]

11. Religions require and seek accountability of religions leaders. Cult leaders have not accountability. [Oh, yes.]

12. Cults usually offer simplistic answerst to complex issues. [Oh, REALLLLLLLY?]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 13:34:09 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Cult v. Religion
Message:
This foundation is named for the congressman who was killed in Guyana by members of Peoples Temple. One of Ryan's daughters was a follower of Bhagwan Shree Rajaneesh, I think.
These guidelines all ring true re:DLM. In Peoples Temple, Jones took his followers to the extreme of going to the South American jungle. GMJ just as effectively isolated us through mental gymnastics.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 17:37:50 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Cult v. Religion
Message:
What a great list. I was just saying in an email to someone here on the forum that all of the churches I have attended (Unitarian, & United Church of Christ) have allowed people the freedom to come and go as they choose, & the freedom to criticize the church. They aren't black and white about it--there's no 'either you're in or you're out, no grey area allowed' kind of feeling. ALso, one thing I was really impressed with with the United Church of Christ is that they DO have expectations for members and they spell them out very clearly. I thought that was great--instead of the 'everything's groovy at first, we'll stick you up later' approach in M's cult. ANyway, really loved the list--thanks for posting it.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 14:47:29 (EDT)
From: Street Premie
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Cult v. Religion
Message:
As long as $$$ rules,one can dissect religion vs. cult all they want-but maintaining membership is essential to both. IMHO the only difference is in size of membership. God is dead(N.Y. Times-1968).
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 22:37:42 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Line in the sand
Message:
Joe,

First, I haven't forgotten that I haven't gotten back to you on Kosovo. I guess I feel a little stymied. I don't know what the hell we should be doing over there. Maybe you're right in the result that the bombing campaign's a catastrophic mistake but, even if that's true, I still wouldn't accept without some good proof your accusation that NATO's acting on the meanest of territorial urges and sinister agendas. May I be so bold as to ask you if you've gleaned Chomsky's take on this latest conflict? I know how quick he is to disparage the integrity of the U.S. gov't and friends. Your post reminded me of him somehow. Well, like I say, maybe you're right. At least you can enjoy the strength of your convictions. Personally, I'm confused.

This 'cult vs. religion' issue's always bugged me. I still think of it like cutting away mold on rotting bread. Better to pitch the whole loaf, maybe, and start again? Of course that's a joke here. Still, I think it's worth stating once in a while. 'Imagine no religion'... would we start them up all over again in the face of science? Hm...

1. Healthy religions respect individuals' rights and freedom.

Where does 'obedience' etc. fit into this respect? All those orders of this, orders of that. Isn't Catholicism a religion?

2. Conversion to religions involves unfolding of internal processes.

Oh sure, like being 'born again'. Or is generic, plain old christianity, fundamentalist or not, not religion either?

3. Healthy religions encourage questions and critical thinking.

Is he serious? Religions (I'm not sure of what constitutes a 'healthy' one) tolerate questions until they get too difficult. They ultimately fall back on faith regardless of how at odds their dogma is with what we know fo the world through science.

4. Religions have clear expectations about membership. So do some cults for what it's worth. I'm sure being a card-carrying good community premie is as easy a protocol to follow as being a good Sikh. Sure, you get the odd frantic cult leader topping up the sacrifice demands once in a while but that's not an essential element of the cult's identity, I don't think. Your modern scientologist, like your modern moonie, like your modern premie, like your modern muslim, knows the program.

5. Religions value and support the family. More bullshit, I think. Mormonism supports the family all the way. Cult? Of course. The Moonies are big family people too. Cult? Of course. Hasidic jews? Family-valued cult for sure.

6. Religions allow members to leave without repercussion. What do you think the fallout is for an apostate fundamentalist? How about a lapsed muslim in half the world? And what's all this life-long fear thing my catholic friends keep talking about?

7. Religions encourage psychospiritual integration. Yeah, except when they talk about 'the devil', in you and without you.

8. Healthy religions practice truthfulness and integrity in practices. Give me another break. Religions and cults are all rife with deceit, power plays, embezzlement, exploitation and tyranny. History... just LOOK at history.

9. Cults claim their doctrines are infallible and can't be verified by others outside the group, and often claim that they can't be understood by rational thought. Are you saying religions don't do this exactly?

10. Religions view money as a means to an end, subject to ethical guidelines. How're you going to prove this one? Besides, it's also false. People are people are people. They exploit others' faith for their own personal advancement or, if they're strongly identified with an institution, sometimes for that group's 'benefit'. This is just an impossible value judgement.

11. Religions require and seek accountability of religions leaders.

Some do, some don't. Who do the ayatollahs answer to? How about the pope? I'm not saying there isn't some measure of accountability in some religious structures. It's just not an integral part of the religion's identity, that's all.

12. Cults usually offer simplistic answers to complex issues. So do religions.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 23:05:02 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Jim
Subject: Line in the sand
Message:
12. Cults usually offer simplistic answers to complex issues. So do religions.

And sociobiologists...

(but agree with your main points, here, Jim)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 23:20:09 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: 'Sociobiologists?' I'll show y
Message:
ou sociobiologists!

Nigel,

I read the Pinker/Rose debate with a full level two attention span and -- guess what? -- I thought Pinker acquitted himself quite nicely in the face of Rose's peckish onslaught. Did you read it? (Of course you did.) Would you mind dropping everything you're doing and showing me where I've dropped the ball or Pinker's kicked it under the table? I just don't see it. He seems to be qualifying the ev/psych speculation just about right (as if I know) and happily open to substantive criticism. What am I missing?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 05:25:27 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Jim
Subject: How to be a sociobiologist...
Message:
I'm not wading through Pinker all over again. I think that extract I posted here last week was pretty good evidence of someone going beyond his evidence to draw his conclusions. Which to me seems characteristic of much of the genre.

The thing about sociobiology / evolutionary psychology is that anybody can do it. It's like Kipling's 'Just So' stories. My drinking pal and I often sit in the alehouse inventing them. Here's one he came up with this week:

1. Babies have proportionately bigger heads than adults.
2. There is an evolutionary advantage in women caring for babies.
3. Therefore, there is an evolutionary advantage in women's being drawn to people with proportionately bigger heads who act like babies.
4. Therefore, they are more likely to choose a mate with a bigger head than his rivals - particularly if he acts like a baby.
5. Therefore, there is selective pressure on men to evolve bigger heads and to act like babies (sexual selection).
6. As head size increases, brain size must also increase, otherwise the brains would rattle around inside the skull, which would be a bad thing.
7. Therefore, human brains evolved because women have babies.
8. Also therefore, men are brainier than women, even though they appear more childish.
9. QED

A decent writer with the basic biological jargon could probably knock out a paperback developing the theory, call it 'The Childish Ape', enrage the feminists, and top the non-fiction best-seller lists for a little while. But it would still be unsubstantiated rubbish passing itself off as science. (And there is no shortage of theories as dubious as this one in the 'Popular Science' section of the bookshop).
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 11:11:15 (EDT)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: Nigel's just so story
Message:
very good....but you did not deal with the fact we women must birth these big headed creatures through our ordinary pelvises...ouch!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 12:26:48 (EDT)
From: SS&Masochist
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: big-headed baby men
Message:
Oh My God!

You've hit the nail right on the head here, I've always been attracted to men with big egos and childish tempers...and gmj fit right in with that, too.

Could we do some therapy or something together??? I think u r the only one who truly understands my problems.

;)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 00:25:28 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Thanks, Jim
Message:
Personally, I'm confused.

Thank you Jim, that was my read too from your previous post, but have heart, Nato is confused too. It will be interesting, but heart-wrenching, to watch if Clinton and Blair can get Nato out of the horrible mess they have gotten it into. Unfortunately, as usually is the case, millions of people in another part of the world will bear the brunt of Nato's (read: US) machismo and failed policies.)

I still wouldn't accept without some good proof your accusation that NATO's acting on the meanest of territorial urges and sinister agendas.

This is YOUR characterization Jim, not mine, and it's absurd. I don't think Nato has any territorial designs on Yugoslavia, but that being said, they will likely have to be there for many years because of their failed policies and those of the US for the past 10 years. What I said was that Nato is bombing because it (mainly the US) felt its credibility was in question and to give some reason for Nato, which was founded as an entirely defensive organization, to exist (indeed, EXPAND) with the demise of the Soviet Union as a conventional military threat.

Milosovic wouldn't sign the peace agreement we were trying to impose on him, we, through Ms. Albright, foolishly threatened to bomb him if he didn't, and when he called Nato's bluff Nato could either look like a paper tiger or bomb. The paramount important thing is that Nato and the US will never accept anything less than absolute dominance in Europe. This is, of course, back-firing in the worst possible way because you can't solve a political problem with technology, which is what Nato is trying to do. It's been the foreign policy of the US for sometime (Iraq is the best example, and also a failure.)

The arguments for being involved in Yugoslavia are completely circular and you don't need Chomsky or anyone else to explain it to you, you just have to read the newspaper or watch TV. The argument is 1)we need Nato for these kinds of interventions, and 2) We need to intervene (and 'win') to maintain Nato's credibility. That is completely circular and without merit.

I don't know what Chomsky as had to say about this, except a quote I read Sunday in which he said the analogy between Kosovo and Vietnam is faulty, for various reasons, which wasn't what I expected him to say. There are plenty of Republicans who are making this same argument Jim, and calling this intervention a stupid failure. Pat Buchanan for one. Hardly a left-winger like Chomsky.

If you have a better understanding of what the point of Nato's actions are, I would be very interested in hearing it. Personally, I haven't heard anyone, particularly Clinton and Blair say anything but demonize Milosovic -- ignoring the fact that our own actions, predictably, gave Milosovic the excuse and the cover to do exactly what he has done.

Regarding the religion v. cult thing, Jim, why don't you write the author with your questions. I think the point you missed, which you would get if you read his entire article, is that religions can become cults and sometimes have f cult characteristics and I'm sure fundamentalist christianity and islam would be included. Believe it or not Jim, there are religions that are not harmful to people and people actually get a lot out of them. Some of them also do a whole lot of good in the world.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 11:22:56 (EDT)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Hi JW and Jim and Mickey the P
Message:
I went to funeral yesterday of a friends mother. The pastor was so uncultlike. I truly envy those who can have the comfort of religion and not treat it like a cult. Even so I am not sure I personally could ever do that.

Jim, if you are reading this, I just read CS Lewis's book, 'Mere Christianity', he was once an atheist and explains why he became a Christian. It attempts to explain Christianity to non Christians. There were lots of good parts that actually did explain at least how his practice of Christianity was different than a cult members. But rest assured it did not 'convert' me, many of his answers to my questions seemed logically flawed. But it was an interesting book and in it are some real differences between cults and religions, though that is not the topic of the book.

Mickey do you like this book if you have read it?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 18:54:35 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: g's mom
Subject: Hi JW and Jim and Mickey the P
Message:
Hi g's mom,
I read 'Mere Christianity a long time ago and really don't remember much about it; I have a copy and will take a quick look at it again. I don't really get to read much that doesn't have to do with my research right now. I do like his stuff because he doesn't insult one's intelligence and expect one to 'ask Jesus into your heart.'
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 11:41:49 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Consistency?
Message:
Believe it or not Jim, there are religions that are not harmful to people and people actually get a lot out of them. Some of them also do a whole lot of good in the world.

I'm sure the case can be made that the Maharaji cult offers the same service to the non-discriminating consumer. Something to believe in and a place to go a few times a week. Sorry, it's all the same continuum as far as I'm concerned. Just like there are cults and then really bad cults. I mean, who's to say the difference between Heaven's Gate or Jonestown and DLM/EV isn't greater than the gap between DLM/EV and Islam? Not me. You?

(P.S. I never meant 'territorial' literally. Bad choice of words, I admit, given the possible ambiguity. Whatever.)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 11:47:48 (EDT)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: here is a thought of mine
Message:
I think we who have been cult members have the same problems with God/spirituality that those who were raped have with sex. We cannot approach the subject without incredible defenses going up. I still feel Rawat stole a part of me that was good and corrupted it into something I really can't even use/deal with/ acknowledge without fear. The person, though young, I was before could look at the idea of an existance of God without the horror of losing myself like a fool....I cannot do that any longer.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 11:49:51 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: g's mom
Subject: bad analogy (then off to work!
Message:
No, g, it's not like sex. Sex is real, God's just a 10,000 year old game of 'telephone'.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 12:15:15 (EDT)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: g's mom
Subject: here is a thought of mine
Message:
Hi!

My husband was invited to a 3ho yoga thing -- 4 weeks/$40 or something like that. When he missed, Dr. Khalsa invited him to bring me along for free! Hubbie says, no way, she's not interested in anything remotely spiritual...sikh says, oh--she's been burned by a bad guru...we have a special meditation for that!

i say, a la Mike -- bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha

I knew they could cure me. (i'm being sarcastic here.)

I saw the top 3ho sikh raghead and he did absolutely nothing for me...nowhere near as blissful as m and premies (not blissful at all really) ... i sat about 4 feet away from him and didn't feel a thing...in fact, the 3ho-ers reminded me of Catholics, complaining about the food and the attendees, how some people were not invited and who asked you here, anyway??????

I think it is a good analogy, and I must admit that after years away from M and his cult, I finally did feel that I might be missing something in my life. After spending several months around the sikhs and reading a lot of bullshit new age books, I have reaffirmed my stance that life without knowledge is much better than life with it. I couldn't believe how quickly I fell into all the magical thinking and everything, scared the shit out of me...that I could be away for so long and then boom. My experience with gmj rewired my love/spirituality circuits so that I don't want to go anywhere near that shit...

I have a mind. I have a body. I have a life. If all this was given to me by a god, then god surely wants me to use it. I practice human kindness whenever I can and try to teach my children the same.

Love,

Victoria
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 13:28:32 (EDT)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: everybody
Subject: more on cults vs. religion
Message:
I read the list of supposed differences between cults and religions in the beginning of this thread, and as several others here, I did not find it convincing. I'm familiar with these arguments from before (I'm a professor of psychology, and I've actually done and published a few studies on people's world views in relation to their personality traits). I think mainstream religions may be as abusive as cults, in individual cases. Blind faith in religious practises, a master, god(s), or whatever, appears to be - in most cases, at least - a defense mechanism, escapism when life gets too tough, pie in the sky when you die, a way of dealing with anxiety. One thing I consistently found in my studies was that religious individuals showed higher anxiety levels than others. There's lots of studies by others as well on this matter. The cults vs religion list is far too positive towards (mainstream) religion, without even defining religion.

I'm not suggesting that religion by definition always has a negative impact on people. The more fanatic, the more religious the individual, the more negative the impact appears to be. Sure, religious people may have, statistically, a longer life expectancy, due to the fact that they often don't drink, smoke, etc - but that doesn't prove religion is right. Since the 'truth' of religions may not be proven, faith is always walking with a stick.

I think of myself, intellectually, as an agnostic. A case for or against the existence of life after death, karma, a meaning or life etc, cannot be made, neither philosophically nor empirically. Well, perhaps empirically, if God suddenly comes down from the sky - but... hey, we tried that one already. Then, it's most likely self-deception. We have to live with, and accept, uncertainty. The rest is up to argument, for or against religion, Darwin/Dawkins, - or some other view. One has to be especially cautious with all belief in paranormal phenomena, since people are so prone to cling to these things - it's the almost universal defense mechanism. In the capacity of being an ex, I think there is all reason in the world to be very much on guard. We have all proved ourselves gullible, once.

The principle of Occam's razor - other things equal, always choose the simplest explanation - is really the safest. On the other hand, absence of proof is not proof of absence, either.

But I do agree with g's mom: being 'burnt' by a mentally abusive guru has destroyed something for us. If there is a baby in the bathwater, that is thrown away too. And, it has increased general distrust. I have become almost allergic against religious people, and I find it extremely hard to trust 'teachers', especially alleged spiritual ones.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 23:11:50 (EDT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Happy
Subject: a do do do a da da da
Message:
It just seems to me that DNA and evolutionary psychology
logic's don't cover every last area of human nature well
enough to allow me to stand and say 'done deal, there is
no super creative self aware conciouness monitering and
tweaking the human unfoldment over time.'
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 23:31:12 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: You wish, bb. You wish. (nt)
Message:
is all I want to say to you
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 04:12:39 (EDT)
From: Diz
Email: None
To: g's mom
Subject: I like your analogy
Message:
Hi g's mom

I thought it was a good analogy. There's certainly a part of me that doesn't want to go within a million miles of anything that smacks of religion. Mind you, I think Jim has a point to the extent that there ain't much out there that doesn't have some of the abovementioned 'cult' characteristics. The very idea of God seems to have a kinda authoritarian ring to it, most places.

Still, I would like to have more ability to trust that life isn't out to get me. I know bad things happen. But I think I'm more on edge now than I was before my experiences with MJ and surrounds.

Many people can take what's good about a religion without drowning in the bullshit. I see the bullshit first. Hey, many premies get by by 'focusing on the positive'. I think for any group thing to have any attraction to me, it needs to have mechanisms for looking at itself critically. And ways to acknowledge and deal with people who are hurt, even inadvertently. NOT common, nor easy. I do know a couple of Christian groups that have tried to do this, both on a local level with some very humanitarian and thoughtful leadership. I still can't imagine myself getting involved, though: they'd still bring that pesky God idea into it!

Hope all is well with you, g's mom

Love, Diz
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 12:58:59 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Consistency?
Message:
Sorry, it's all the same continuum as far as I'm concerned.

I know this is what you think, Jim, and I agree with you, basically, I just think you take it to an extreme. I personally know both Christians and Jews who really do look at their religious views objectively. They criticize the leadership, they disagree, publicly, with some of the teachings, the money situation is disclosed to their satisfaction, they aren't persecuted or threatened if they question beliefs, they don't discount or ignore rational throught, they don't believe they will go to hell if they left their religion, etc.

I don't think they are in a cult, even though I don't share their religious views. They do believe in god, but what that is varies to a great degree for each one of them, and the christians do believe that Jesus Christ was divine, in some way or another. I don't believe that, but I don't think you can prove it one way or the other and I don't think someone is in a cult if they do believe it. I don't think these people are harmed by following the religions they do. Of course, there are other religions I think are really cults, but they aren't considered in this society cults because they have political power.

I think John and Mickey are examples of former cult members who have made the transition to belonging to a church. I'm sure they both have excellent detectors to anything cult-like, and don't wouldn't be members if they saw those cult characteristics. From the impression I get, however, they are both is very liberal christian churches that don't impose beliefs on people and really encourage individuals to come to their own conclusions about what they believe. They are members of religions that are at the end of the continuum away from 'cult.'

There is one phenomenon right now that is really bugging me. I know people who are Buddhists who maintain that you don't have to believe anything to be a Buddhist. They suggest this to me, because I am so skeptical of anything spiritual. But when I look at all the crap written about Buddhism, it seems to be replete with beliefs that look like weird superstitions to me.

A VERY popular book right now is entitled: 'Buddhism Without Beliefs' written by a guy in Berkeley. I tried to read it and it really made me nuts. I just can't accept this 'have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too' nonsense.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 14:02:01 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Consistency?
Message:
JW: I agree with you concerning Buddhism. You can't possibly have an 'organization' without a common belief-system or common value system. Somewhere along the line a group, by definition, must have something in common or it wouldn't be a group! To think you can have it 'both ways,' as you said, is rediculous (IMHO).

Here....believe in my non-beliefs and follow my non-values...huh???
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 15:07:42 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Consistency?
Message:
Perhaps it is more of that 'all is space , all is dharma and all is experience, we are beyond rules' stuff. Remember how delightful it was as premies to live in that kind of atmosphere--NOT!! I've been thinking about the ethics issue brought up by Zac. Only if Maharaji issued an agya about ethics would we have been ethical. Is it okay with Maharaji to be ethical??? Doesn't that sound really weak to you all now? It all makes me nuts to think about it.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 15:21:10 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Consistency?
Message:
Helen: This is a 'belief-system': 'all is space , all is dharma and all is experience, we are beyond rules.' he he he he :-)

You just can't get away from the simple fact that to be a group you must have something in common, even if it's a 'belief' in being uncommon.

JW's point is a very good one: YOU CANNOT have your cake and eat it, too.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 15:39:31 (EDT)
From: HALIP
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Cult v. Religion
Message:
Greetings from my neck of the woods !

Well, there isn't one single word in that excerpt that doesn't apply to G and EV... it's clear, pure and simple, and right on the money (if I can indulge in a bon mot...)

Congrat and thanks for posting this...
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 00:05:03 (EDT)
From: Marianne Bachers
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Everyone
Subject: My journeys entry
Message:
I have just read the postings about my journeys entry. Thanks to all who commented and sent words of encouragement. It took me about 3 hours to write it and I had to figure out what would be interesting to others and perhaps catch the attention of old ashram buddies.
I lost my mother to cancer in 1979 -- she died 10 days after she learned she had it. My involvement with DLM really upset her -- for obvious reasons -- but I was almost out of law school when she died, and that made her proud.
My involvement with the Larry Layton/Peoples Temple trials was quite enlightening. Jones took people to the middle of the Guyanese jungle, took their passports, and stopped all communication with the outside world. It was more extreme than what we experienced. But during the mass suicide, which was taped (everything was taped in Jonestown, just like Nixon), everyone argued in favor of it. Jones had convinced everyone that they were going to be killed by the CIA and the compassionate thing to do was first kill the children and seniors and then the adults take the poison. There was only one voice in opposition, and she was shouted down. My experience in DLM made me realize how easily this could have happened to us, given the right conditions. I wondered if I would have done it.
I am greatly touched by all your comments and insights. I did not realize that you would be listening. Thank you from the bottom of my heart.
and to the person asking if I lived on Castro Street, I did not. I lived on 10th Avenue, and was close to the theater troop folks on 4th Avenue. I also lived at 38th Avenue. Did you know Guy from Canada?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 02:04:24 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Marianne Bachers
Subject: your journey
Message:
I appreciated your journeys entry even though I did not post to you before.

You were, I guess, involved in prosecuting Layton?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 11:55:04 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Runamok
Subject: your journey
Message:
No, I did not prosecute Larry Layton. I was part of his defense team. I'm not a prosecutor and never will be. Larry never killed anyone. He wounded some people at the airstrip where Congressman Ryan was trying to take off with people who wanted to leave Jonestown. Ryan and a few of the defectors were killed by a truck load of Temple members who went back to Jonestwon and committed suicide. Larry was prosecuted as a co-conspirator.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 11:43:16 (EDT)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: Marianne Bachers
Subject: your journeys entry
Message:
I have been out of town but wanted to say i just read your journey and it is well worth reading. Thank you.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 21:05:39 (EDT)
From: Sir David
Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Fed up of fat boy?
Message:
The fat boy wonder holds little interest for me at the moment. However, events in the real world do, particularly events here in Europe. There's a new forum for discussing the Balkans conflict and all are welcome to join in.

So why not take a look at The crisis in Kosovo and make a contribution to our discussion. There's no censorship on this forum although I'd prefer to keep the former Lord of the Universe out of it. It's an unofficial Rawat free zone.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 21:19:42 (EDT)
From: Roger Dodger Drek
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: dropping fat boy
Message:
But, Sir David the battle we fight on the Forum is the Mahabharata, not just the prelude to World War III and a, hopefully, limited nuclear exchange.

BTW, Fat Boy was the name of the atom bomb that was dropped on Nagasaki.

I'd like to join you, but I've got a lot of meditating to do before I meet my maker.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 07:48:51 (EDT)
From: Sir David
Email: None
To: Roger Dodger Drek
Subject: dropping fat boy
Message:
I'll leave my assistants to carry on the good work. Lady Jane and Prof Heinz Baked-Beans can post here in my absence.

I knew I'd heard that term, 'Fat Boy' used somewhere before. Roger; Lady Jane has gone to a top department store in Paris to buy some new lingerie. I'm sure she'll post you a message when she gets back. Prof Heinz Baked-Beans is still working on his Gas Propulsion Theory with Doctor Phart. He'll post some new findings when the air clears.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 23:05:39 (EDT)
From: eric
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: naw, Jim's ok (nt)
Message:
hey! no text
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 17:59:20 (EDT)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: www.appreciation.org (nt)
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 18:33:29 (EDT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: www.appreciation.org (nt)
Message:
Whois brings up Arbor communications with Tony Helman as contact - What is Arbor Communications? I went there with a text based browser -no pictures so I didn't get much.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 19:00:06 (EDT)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Ben Lurking
Subject: www.appreciation.org (nt)
Message:
Huh? There is a Pacific based web site promoting K & M.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 19:45:20 (EDT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: www.appreciation.org (nt)
Message:
That is the result of a 'whois' command, it returns who the site is registered to and who the technical and billing contacts are for a '.org or .com or . whatever', it is a useful means of tracing site ownership or responsibility.
It shows the 'enjoyinglife.com' was registered by Mary Ann Griffin in Bogart, Ga. FWIW
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 21:08:50 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: Ben Lurking
Subject: Error 11001 Host not found
Message:
Seems like their server is offline now.

You can run, but you can't hide!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 23:18:38 (EDT)
From: A new website
Email: None
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: to pick on
Message:
I thought it might be fun for us all to each pick a paragraph or two and parse this fine little peice of cult literature hot off the press!

Maharaji has accepted an invitation to speak at events in Johor Baru on April 7-8. Here are some thoughts from those who are busy preparing.

Looking forward to his visit
I must say that people here are really enthusiastic and looking forward to Maharaji's visit.

Volunteers are putting a lot of effort from all over the country to make this event really smooth.

We hope that everyone who attend this event will immensely benefit from Maharaji's teachings. In fact this event, I believe, is going to create a lot of inspiration.
Mr. Siva Anamalay: National Contact

Teamwork
My role as event manager is to co-ordinate, manage and synchronize all involved having a smooth and enjoyable event.

It takes a lot of effort to prepare for an event with Maharaji, most of all I need to be conscious. Everyone feels good and enthusiastic to be involved in whatever little way they can. It makes me feel good to be a part of the Team.
Mr. Ramakrishnan: Event manager

Excitement
We expect around 300 people who are interested in receiving Knowledge will attend the coming event in Johor Baru. They are coming from all over Malaysia including Penang, Kuala Lumpur and Johor.

I can see that they are very excited about the upcoming event and they are eagerly waiting to see Maharaji. Many say they really miss the event that was postponed last November therefore, they are really looking forward to this event.
Dr. Shanta: Aspirant team

Participation gives me the opportunity
I assist in organizing events and work with those involved in preparing Chinese translated information.

I am very happy and excited being involved in the preparation. Participation also gives me the opportunity to enjoy, understand and grow more. It's such a joy to see him again in person..

Preparing for this event, one of the most important things I feel is to do everything from the 'heart' and trust.

Everyone is waiting here to see him again.
Mr. Then Mun Seong: Chinese Community Contact

I feel happier
I am very excited, very happy that Maharaji is coming to Malaysia. Whenever he comes, he helps me understand Knowledge more. Helps me to practice more actually.

I feel happier living in this world. Seeing him in person, I feel so much more, to get his understanding and love in his presence. I feel thankful.
Mrs. Por Cheeu Hiok: Aspirant team

We are very gifted
We are very gifted that Maharaji is coming to see us. Each time I go to an event, I feel that I want to participate more as well as to practice this Knowledge.

Something very exciting is happening that we seldom come across.
Mrs. Meulin Willie Stephan, Kuala Lumpur
submitted by gerry the terrible mostly because the terms on their site say I can't do this...well come and get me!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index


Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 19:28:50 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: A new website
Subject: to pick on
Message:
WOW, now THIS is exciting! I just wish they'd stop using endangered species and reef creatures as their backdrops, since they and their master care NOT for the environment. All those beautiful pictures of crystal clear water and BLUE skies that their MASTER dumps tons of pollutants into everytime he flies his personal AIRLINER! How hypocritical can he get????? (rhetorical question, I know!)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 13:13:07 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Food for thought
Message:
While surfing the net, I came upon this site with all these quotes from 'The Guru Papers'. Interesting stuff. Lots to think about.

Quotes from
The Guru Papers: Masks of Authoritarian Power
by Joel Kramer and Diana Alstad

'One of the longest experiments in history, the approximately 3,000-year-old Eastern ideology of Oneness, was first developed in the Upanishads. . . . The failure of its renunciate morality to diminish self-centeredness is a powerful statement that something is amiss. . . . It is our contention that this morality has failed not because there is something wrong with people, but because the framework constructs ideals that are impossible to achieve, thus setting people up for failure and self-mistrust.'

'The ideal of enlightenment at first blush seems completely innocent of human corruption because it is defined as being totally selfless. Yet it is this sacrosanct concept of perfection that allows authoritarianism to manifest, and indeed flourish.'

'Monotheism with one God on top is obviously authoritarian. The authoritarianism embedded within the Eastern ideology of Oneness is less obvious. . . . Whereas monotheism makes the revealed Word of God sacred, Eastern religions make presumed enlightened beings sacred. Thus the concept of enlightenment brings authoritarianism at the personal, charismatic level (gurus, masters, avatars, and buddhas).'

'Accepting selflessness as the highest value is where the insidious authoritarianism of the old order unwittingly seeps into many modern paradigms that attempt to be new.'

'Are gurus...filling deep needs and thus inadvertently pointing to trouble spots and lacks in the fabric of our culture, as well as revealing the depth of our conditioning to want authorities and mistrust ourselves?'(p.32)

'...Behind much of the appeal of such authorities lies the primitive and essentially childish hope of an external and magical answer to the existential problems and fears around living and dying. The guru/disciple relationship is a formal structure of extreme authoritarianism. It thus offers a quintessential exemplar of control and surrender, displaying mechanical processes that reinforce predilections toward submission.'(p.32)

'THE GURU PAPERS critiques the guru/disciple liaison because it is a clear-cut example of the old, no longer appropriate paradigm of spiritual authority. It is not that we doubt that some who are considered gurus have deeper insights than their followers. Yet even with the best intentions, assuming the role of spiritual authority for others sets in motion a system of interaction that is mechanical, predictable, and contains the essence of corruption. Another purpose of this book is to show that corruption is not simply the failure or weakness of a specific individual, but is structurally built into any authoritarian relationship, and less obviously, any renunciate morality.'(p.35)

'...Asserting that one human being fundamentally knows what’s best for another is authoritarian. If this is accepted, it sets up a chain of inevitable relational patterns that are detrimental to all players of the game.'(p.36)

'Now through media images, leaders of all sorts can charismatically control far more people than ever before, without having any personal connection with them'(p.43)

'The need to appear right when presenting oneself as a spiritual knower is greater than in any other arena because knowing is what makes one essentially different from seekers. Admitting any fallibility not only removes one from that exalted place, but makes it difficult to compete with other presumed knowers who do claim infallibility.'(p.47)

'The ostensible reason for fostering surrender is it detaches followers from certain deep conditionings presumed to be obstacles on the spiritual path. But it does not detach them from one of the most insidious and powerful conditionings of all- the predilection to look for an authority that one can trust more than oneself.' (p.50)

'A number of gurus have made statements to the effect that disobedience or disrespect
of the guru has...severe negative spiritual consequences...One even said that such disrespect can bring thousands of lifetimes of pain and suffering. Whatever else is involved, it should be obvious that fear and threats are being used here for control.'(p.67)

'When magic lies at the base of authority, no matter how elevated the people appear, they are engaged in perhaps the oldest ploy of authoritarian mind control.' (p.68)

'To maintain mental control it is necessary to undermine self-trust. This is insidiously done by removing the ways people can build trust in themselves.'(p.73)

'Cults need a continuous stream of recruits and potential converts to reinforce the belief that they’re 'where it’s at'- the vanguard of spirituality on the planet.'(78)

'What most proselytizing groups face is how to sell their beliefs without appearing to do so. Recruiting is therefore always done in the name of helping or doing some kind of good....to care about others is to get them to join.'(p.79)

'When dealing with others who are less certain, simply having certainty gives dominance.' (p.80)

'When the popularity and power of the group plateaus and then begins to wane...the apocalyptic phase enters and the party is over...'(p.80)

'The attitude of benign superiority toward outsiders characteristic of the expansionistic phase dramatically shifts when the group turns apocalyptic. It is the outsiders who will receive the brunt of whatever cataclysm the guru claims will come.' (p.81)

'The glorification of work always involves improving the leader’s property (the commune or ashram), increasing his wealth, or some grandiose project.'(p.82)

'The potential for violence and abuse in an authoritarian cult is always there, not only because whatever the leader says goes, but also because outsiders are made into 'the Other,' which has always been used to justify violence.'(p.83)

'Both gurus and disciples use hierarchical relationships for power. Everyone on the hierarchy gets their feelings of power and specialness from where they are positioned.' (p.85)

'authoritarian hierarchies are propped up with an authoritarian worldview and morality. No matter their stated rationale, their main purpose always becomes self-perpetuation, which inevitably corrupts them.' (p.86)

'...proselytizing and advertising are cut from the same cloth. The enormous attention given to appearance leads to a concern for packaging rather than what’s inside the package.'(p.88)

'Gurus do give special attention to those with wealth or power; having celebrities in one’s entourage increases coffers, influence, and membership.'(p.89)

'In the realm of sexuality, the two prevalent ways control is exerted are through promulgating either celibacy or promiscuity...both serve the same function: they minimize the possibilities of people bonding deeply with each other, thus reducing factors that compete with the guru for attention.' (p.92)

'Celibacy does allow one to maintain a certain kind of control of one’s energy and emotions. It also conforms with images of purity. Therefore, it is far easier for a guru to gain and maintain power if he is celibate - or pretends to be.'(p.92)

'Gurus who preach celibacy while secretly engaging in sexuality present sex as an esoteric initiation ritual or advanced spiritual exercise that must be kept hidden... But it is the lie, not the sex, that’s the real issue. The lie indicates the guru’s entire persona is a lie, that his image as selfless and beyond ego is a core deception.'(p.95)

'The standards of purity necessary for the role of guru must bring unconscious repression and filtering mechanisms that ensure deceit and hypocrisy around self-interest,'(p.106)

Being a guru '...creates a feedback-proof system where the guru always needs to be right and cannot be shown to be wrong - which is where learning comes from.' (p.107)

'Why would even the most realized of beings want people to become reliant on his wisdom instead of their own?' (p.108)

'The myriad scandals around sex, money, and power that have tainted so many gurus are not surprising, given the structural corruptibility of the role.' (p.113)

The...'guru role makes it extremely difficult to escape the traps of power - the ultimate trap being in the end, gurus lose their humanity.' (p.114)

'...The ex-disciple’s world has turned on its head: What the guru and group presented as unconditional love was conditional upon accepting their authority; the egoless guru was found to be on a manipulative, even crass, power trip. For people who surrendered totally to a guru and thus experienced passion more deeply than ever before, seeing 'The emperor wears no clothes' can be devastating. So it’s no wonder people have tremendous resistance to anything that causes them to doubt the veracity of the authority.' (p.152)

'The most extreme form of mental control occurs when the authority is trusted completely and becomes the center of one’s identity. Sadly, society and parents insidiously put out messages from childhood on that others know what’s best. Many people are deeply conditioned to expect and hope some outside agency, power or person will solve their problems. Letting go of expectations or even wanting this is difficult, partially because what one is left with is oneself and all of one’s limitations.'(p.154)

'True healing can be accelerated by understanding the deep mechanisms of what happened, and of authoritarian dynamics in general. Then people can be more confident they won’t be taken in again.'(p.154)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 13:31:23 (EDT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Food for thought
Message:
Thanks for forwarding these powerful quotes. What is the internet address for the site you found these on?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 14:52:07 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: URL
Message:
Here's the URL, Way:

http://www.cyberpass.net/truth/quotes_from_the_guru_papers.htm
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 13:43:45 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Food for thought
Message:
Thanks for the quotes, Jerry. I hadn't read that book in awhile. It really is excellent.

Cults need a continuous stream of recruits and potential converts to reinforce the belief that they’re 'where it’s at'- the vanguard of spirituality on the planet.'(78)

I guess this might mean Maharaji is seen as NOT 'where it's at'-- since he hasn't been able to get new recruits in the West for quite some years. Premies certainly can't believe he is on the vauguard of spirituality on the planet. They just have to believe that it works for them and who cares about anybody else, or that Phase II is just around the corner. Pretty pathetic.

The glorification of work always involves improving the leader’s property (the commune or ashram), increasing his wealth, or some grandiose project.'(p.82)

Can you say 'Boeing 707' (grandiose project), and 'Knowledge Centres' (grandiose projects) and Big, Gross Residence (improving the leader's property)?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 14:34:49 (EDT)
From: crow znest
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: airlift time
Message:
Hi Jerry
I have been over at the premie forum and
-angel and steven want to talk.
Shp seems highly relatable to me after this back and forth
over there.
Would you airlift this 'food' and drop it in the thread right
after Angels post to me today on monday?

Also, if you stay and read, if you can 'get' what steven is
saying to me-please let me know. I know he is trying to
make a point to me but I am scratching my head.

I know what was said about that forum in the shp threads
below, but I went there before reading that we were
to leave them alone and well, I don't think I am ruining
thier party. They seem to relish having someone to
'share ' with. We are real far apart it seems.
bb
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 16:44:03 (EDT)
From: scare crow
Email: None
To: crow znest
Subject: airlift time
Message:
Thanks for that.
It is a heck of a post.
I printed it up and it will be going out to make the rounds.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 17:06:03 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: crow znest
Subject: airhead time
Message:
Also, if you stay and read, if you can 'get' what steven is saying to me-please let me know. I know he is trying to make a point to me but I am scratching my head.

Bill,

Are you serious or joking? Steven's a premie. Premie's think they have a monopoly on understanding what feelings are, particularly joy. They think this way because they think they have a very special teacher/master in Maharaji who's filled them in on this sacred truth. Steven also thinks you are a miserable sap. How could you be anything else as an ex? He's tryng to help you. While you see he is filled with premie dogma, he thinks you just don't get it. IT'S ABOUT FEELINGS. THE TRUTH IS IN YOUR HEART!!! Can't you hear him? He thinks he's making it perfectly clear to you and that is why he's SCREEEEEEMING at you. The problem with you, Bill, is that in order for Steven to understand you, he's got to THINK about what you're saying, but, thanks to Maharaji, he already knows that thinking is for the birds. Feeling is where its at. Stop scratching your head, Bill. Steven's a premie, one of the great mysteries of the 20th century. Perhaps in ages to come, our ancestors will have a greater understanding of what premies once were and not be as confused by the phenomena as we presently are. We can hope.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 17:26:50 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: airhead time
Message:
Jerry:

Did you by any chance see the 20/20 show last night in which Diane Sawyer investigated a cult called 'Brother John' or something like that? It was really chilling -- these bright, nice kids became cult members at age 18 or so and are still cult members 15 years later. It was about parents trying to make contact with their kids and the difficulty they were having. The programming was of the same quality that premies have, although not to the same degree.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 19:58:14 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: airhead time
Message:
No, JW, I missed that. Too bad. I would have liked to have seen it. It's interesting, the different cults different people get involved in. I never had any interest in any other but Big M's. Some people bounce around from one to another, and others just get stuck in one particular one for a lifetime. There's never been a 'one size fits all' cult, but its funny how we all believe that OUR cult is the one that's going to save the world. And of course, it's everybody else that's in a cult, not us.

We're a strange breed, us humans. It makes you wonder how we got this far. If we're the best that evolution can do, can you imagine what some of the species that didn't make it must have been like? Eeesh!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 07:04:20 (EDT)
From: mr. richards
Email: None
To: merry
Subject: airhead time
Message:
i went 2 my shrink and she was out choppin'
what a dickhead.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 15:23:08 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Food for thought
Message:
Hi Jerry,

Thanks for the interesting quotes from the Guru Papers. I must buy the book.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 09:30:44 (EDT)
From: Diz
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Food for thought
Message:
Hi Jerry

That was a pretty hefty post. Almost every quote would be worth a thread in itself.

The Guru Papers was a big part of my journey to freedom. Once I understood their point about the inevitability of authoritarianism within guru/devotee relationships, I had a different perspective from which to view the whole MJ scene. A way of standing outside the circular thinking.

I also enjoyed their thoughts about relationships, and addiction.

The Guru Papers, they say on a number of occasions, is part of a larger work, called Control (I think). Has that been published yet, does anyone know?

Hope all goes well with you, Jerry

Diz
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 12:45:39 (EDT)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: Diz
Subject: Food for thought
Message:
I am looking for that book too. I really enjoyed the guru papers and was looking up the control book at the library for months afterward...no luck. If you find it, let me know please.

thanks,

victoria
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 04:59:26 (EDT)
From: TD
Email: thedefector@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: One Year Cult Free! Thanks!
Message:
Hey ex-premie groovers, just realised that this Easter represents my one year anniversary free from premiedom! It was this time last year that I rediscovered this website, read all your journeys and sat for three days straight for about 10 hours a day going through all the archived forums - blowing my brainwashed mind and pissing off premiedom and Knowledge once and for all.

Thanks again to everyone here for all you've done.

Right well I'd better do something mildly significant to mark the occasion. How about outing myself? Well I'm Kirstie which some of you know already, but for consistency's sake I'll still use TD in future posts - I'm quite attached to TD (even if I do reckon it sounds like a venereal disease!). Ooooh doctor, I've got a bad case of TD....ha-ha!!

And for any aspirants/doubting premies reading this, if you want to know what its like one year down the track since flicking the Big M - well I'll be honest - it's been a difficult time in ex-premie detox, but fuck, I am SO GLAD, RELIEVED & GRATEFUL to be free from the insidious fruitbean world of Maharaji and premiedom. If I was having a shit time, I'd have gone back to premiedom, but everyday I'm grateful to be out and away from what was a fairly destructive 4 years of my life.

Thanks again ex-premie buddies, Kirstie (TD)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 05:45:04 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: One Year Cult Free! Thanks!
Message:
Yeah, I'm about one year cult free myself after having put twenty five years into it.

I read your journey to get a better perspective and like you said, the old timers feel that it gets better and better as they forget the horrors of the old days and maybe they've put together some kind of normal life.

However, in reading your journey and seeing that you got Knowledge in 1995 I would have hoped that things had changed enough so people would not have to experience the horrors that us old timers went through. Well, maybe you didn't, but, then again, you appeared to suffer the same kind of psychological damage that I contend is the fault of the brainwash philosopy that comes in the videos.

Interesting how so much has changed, but not really.

Congratulations, T.D.!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 19:16:50 (EDT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: One Year Cult Free! Thanks!
Message:
Thanks very much Barney for your kind words and congrats on your one year out too! Gosh your 25 years makes my 4 look a bit piddly, but in some ways I can empathise as I was involved with a premie who's had K for 25 years (and still is) and now I have a lot more of an understanding of what it was like in the past (a lot of stuff was intentionally kept from me about the real truth about Maharaji and the history of DLM which still really pisses me off).

As for the differences that exist between the old days and now, as you know it's certainly not as intense or outwardly damaging in terms of the personal sacrifices you all made, but the psychological issues are still the same underneath, in that you do undergo at least a good 6 months of aspirant brainwashing (3-4 videos a week) and by virtue of that you end up in this codependent dribbling devotee state where you believe that he is god in human form and that your whole happiness is tied up with him and Knowledge. Plus I changed my whole life/career to be a better devotee and moved away from my family and friends, even though I wasn't 'asked to' or 'made to' like you did in the past, and my relationship was the typical dysfunctional one that most premie relationships seem to suffer from (you know Maharaji as the third person in the relationship type trip!) and all my extra cash did go to Maharaji and EV, even though it didn't feel like it directly (you know the purchasing of CDs, videos, sarongs etc). Plus they brought darshan back when I was in, so I got a little taste of some of the crazy things you old timers used to have to do.

It's a bit like what's been said here before, in that the 3 S's have just changed to the 3 P's - practice, participation and propogation.

Anyway, thanks very much again for your support Barney.

Regards, Kirstie (TD)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 09:59:51 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: One Year Cult Free! Thanks!
Message:
'the insidious, fruitbean world of Maharaji and premie-dom'--girl, you are so funny!!
Congratulations!!
Love
Helen
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 19:21:27 (EDT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: One Year Cult Free! Thanks!
Message:
Thanks very much Helen! Yeah fruitbean is one of my favourite words of all time - its just got more of a ring to it then fruitcake does - even though it effectively means the same thing! (I am presuming here that fruitcake has the same meaning in the US in that it means a crazy person!!!) Ta again, Kirstie.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 13:53:06 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: One Year Cult Free! Thanks!
Message:
Kirstie:

It's so great to hear you are doing well. I think we all can remember the day you showed up on the forum at 'TD' (didn't that stand for 'The Defector?') I still laugh when you posted that 'life' on enjoyinglife that was the anagram for 'Prem Is A Fraud' and when you posted all that Monique Lew entries. They were very clever and made me laugh out loud.

And it was great to get to meet you in TRW. Thanks again for the CD with all the Anthems. I listen to it quite a lot. Also, I took Gerry (my partner Gerry) to 2223 Market for his birthday a couple of weeks ago and thought about that great evening we had there with Mickey and his wife last Fall. All the best.

Joe (JW)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 19:51:45 (EDT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: One Year Cult Free! Thanks!
Message:
Dear Joe,

Thanks so much. Yeah TD stands for The Defector, although I think Mr Willi Kranz gets the interpretation wrong and calls me The Defective, which I must admit is probably more appropriate!

You know doing that whole Monique Lew and being part of Operation Trojan Horse was actually incredible therapy for me in that when I first posted her onto the Elkies site, I just slipped so easily back into premiespeak and even though she was a joke, she still also did present as a picture perfect premie - and I was also amazed at how much fear I carried with me that I would be 'found out' - a bit like feeling premies would find out that you didn't actually enjoy Knowledge that much or listening to satsang etc. Ridiculous eh? Makes you realise how totally effective the whole brainwashing/premie trip is, in that even when you think you're being removed or risque, you're not really - you're just flicking back into your old cult mindset once more. It was only as time went on, and I saw the type of things you three were getting away with in terms of putting a lot of the real cult-like stuff in it, that I started to see how affected I still was.

Bringing Monique over here and doing her how I should have done her at the start helped me shake off a lot of that premiespeak and mindset I still subconsciously carried around with me. Very refreshing and I must say, I still have great admiration for the creativity behind you three for the characters you created - the Elkie site is a lot less colourful since they were all removed!

Hey Joe, you're going to have to get an account at 2223 Market Street! I hope they treat you well there as it sounds like you're becoming a regular - ha ha!! Don't blame you as it was a bloody good nosh-up wasn't it, and just remember that I'm pretty keen to take you and Gerry around for a good feed down here if ever you make it this far south!

Take care, Kirstie.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 20:09:16 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: One Year Cult Free! Thanks!
Message:
Hi TD
I remember when you started posting. I was still very
programmed, very confused. Maybe had been posting and reading
forum a month or 2 or 3 before you.
I thought you sounded so much more together than me.
I am only now seeing how fucked I was, and How far I have to
go.
but happy birthday !!!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 22:10:55 (EDT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: One Year Cult Free! Thanks!
Message:
Hi Selene. Thanks for your post. You know, I've learnt here that even though at times I think I'm posting or coming across like a totally fucked up fruitbean and on a different plane to everyone else, it doesn't necessarily read like that or is perceived like that by other ex-premies - it's just my own residual paranoia and obviously my own means of clearing out a lot of the premie garbage.

So trust me, I don't think you've sounded any more fucked up then the rest of us - and I know I probably speak for a lot of people here, when I say how appreciative I am when you do speak with honesty and emotion. A bit like a burp - its far better out than in, IMHO!!

Thanks again, Kirstie
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 09:14:56 (EDT)
From: Diz
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Hey Selene
Message:
Hi Selene

Thought I'd catch up with you here as your thread is getting a ways down the page. As usual, I'm not up to date.

Hope you're feeling a bit better. Being physically sick can really pull you down emotionally - maybe it's best if you don't make too many judgements about the state of your being until your lungs are hassle-free.

Just wanted to say that I'm surely glad you're here. I love your honesty, and I am overcome with admiration for your creative talent. Suspect the Red Nighty will be playing a role in deprogramming many an old 70s premie for years to come. Apart from any more risque role it may play in people's lives.

Every person adds colour and perspective to the forum. You helped me when I first came along, a couple of months after Kirstie. You still do.

Take care, Selene.

Love, Diz
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 13:01:10 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Diz and TD
Subject: Hey Selene
Message:
Hey! Thanks! It's so hard to feel, you know?
It's so so good to get this feedback. Can't tell you
how much it means.

Regarding that Red Nighty thing. Mr. History started it out, very well. Then he disappeared and I have needed that kind of
inspiriration. It's not there so I may start somehting
else with Ophelia. We can weave it in of course
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 20:22:25 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: TD
Subject: One Year Cult Free! Thanks!
Message:
Dear Kirstie,
Congratulations! This is wonderful news!
Love,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 22:13:01 (EDT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: One Year Cult Free! Thanks!
Message:
Hi Robyn,

Thanks so much for your congrats, and for your always great and thoughtful posts!

Cheers, Kirstie (TD)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 08:56:32 (EDT)
From: Diz
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: One Year Cult Free! Thanks!
Message:
Hi Kirstie honey

Happy birthday and congrats on your coming out.

You are one incredible sweetie, and I for one am very grateful for your input to the forum. You're insightful, and funny, and creative and just all round good value.

Hope you continue to go from strength to strength.

Love,

Diz
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 19:14:42 (EDT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Diz
Subject: One Year Cult Free! Thanks!
Message:
Thanks so much Diz for your totally lush words. I feel quite spoilt, so I do!

You know, I'm still coming to terms with the fact that it was a year ago that I defected. Before I put that post, I kept thinking that it must be at least two years, that's how distant I feel from the whole premie-trip now.

Anyway thanks again for your kindness and I feel exactly the same way about you!

Lots of mushy girlie lurve, Kirstie
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 13:55:16 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: One Year Cult Free! Thanks!
Message:
Congrats, Kirstie!
It is great to know that you have been free of the mind-numbing cult for one year. I always enjoy reading your posts, and Mona and I had a great time at dinner with you and Joe. Keep posting these great posts, and stay fruitbean-free!
Michael
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 18:09:04 (EDT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: One Year Cult Free! Thanks!
Message:
Thanks so much Mickey! Ditto to you too. Pass my regards on to Mona! Cheers, Kirstie
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 04, 1999 at 17:33:54 (EDT)
From: Roger Drek
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Legal Fund - $1000 starter
Message:
Seeing that there is so much talk about legal action against Maharaji and considering the David vs. Goliath match up, I'm willing to throw in $1000 for any solid legal action. Premie scam artists need not apply.

Doing the Dettmers piece about the Swiss Foundation has me in fighting mode. Also, as I've said, driving on Pacific Highway One through Malibu and seeing Maharaji's freaking palace has made me see the big light about the purpose and intent of the fraud that HE is perpetuating.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 04, 1999 at 22:01:43 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Roger Drek
Subject: Maharaji's Freaking Palace
Message:
Hey, Roger:

So, what does 'the residence' look like from PCH? You can actually see it from the highway?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 04, 1999 at 23:17:08 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Maharaji's Freaking Palace
Message:
Hey JW,

Rahab gave us the address!

Why don't we all rent a tour bus and drive by the house we all built? As Helen sez: HA, HA we could wear rhinestone sunglasses, hang our bird-watchin (or back in the days of stadiums) M watchin binoculars round our necks. We definitely need popcorn, tropical shirts, and oh our baseball caps that have Lord of the Universe emblazened on them!

Name : RAWAT, PREM PAL SINGH
Pilot's Address : 31334 ANACAPA VIEW DR
MALIBU, CA, 90265-2673
Date of Medical : Oct, 1997
Class of Medical : 1
Pilot Certificates : Airline Transport Pilot
Helicopter
Instrument
Glider Rating
Ratings : Multi-Engine Land
FAA Region : Western/Pacific
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 12:30:08 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: Maharaji's Freaking Palace
Message:
We definitely need popcorn, tropical shirts, and oh our baseball caps that have Lord of the Universe emblazened on them!

Great idea, although this is what I would suggest:

We should all wear flared jeans, Earth Shoes and the guys should have longish hair, sideburns and mustaches. We should wear those Mexican wedding shirts. The women have to wear ankle-length skirts and blouses that cover the neck. Bright colors ala hippie would be the dress code. We should wear Maharaji buttons and sell AIIDs to people on the beach and around Malibu. We should eat tofu and Millennium bars. We should carry barrogans and every once in awhile, sit on the beach and reveal the techniques to anyone who is interested. We should have flyers printed up with 'Lord of the Universe' and 'Satguru' on them, and hand them out, and we should carry large poster boards with Maharaji's picture, in full Krishna outfit, dancing. We should also notify the media in advance. We should also hand out cards with the ex-premie.org address on it.

This could be fun.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 20:44:10 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: This could be fun
Message:
I'm with you on this one JW......

But please, please, please

NO APPLE BUTTER SANDWICHES !!!!!!

It kicks off my official psych diagnoses of 'ABS Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome'

But at least I've learned the politically correct reaction for one of the feminine gender, 'Fook Me, Fock Me, Fauk Me'!

Meet you all in Malibu!

Mary M
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 21:01:16 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: YES! A festival in Malibu!
Message:
By all means we need to organize a gathering in Malibu!

Would we need a permit?
Will we get arrested?

Ideas:
Some Kissimmee drug dealing and prostitution would be good. (service opportunities a-plenty!)

An big yellow 28 foot truck painted with something about Millenium and inside a full blown altar and toe sucking and bushel baskets full of monopoly money being hustled off by anxious looking Honchos.

A first aid tent and premies freaking out.

Someone to be the ghost of Mata Ji with a picket sign criticizing his western playboy way of life.

Men dressed in dark suits to be the Honchos.

WPC everywhere.

A refridgerator with a plate of cheese being guarded by Sir David.

A roped off landing zone for alien spacecraft.

We need to do it when Maharaji is in town? Maybe when they hold a program in L.A. or nearby.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 09:47:57 (EDT)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: JW and Mary M
Subject: Wearing MJ buttons
Message:
You guys laugh, but this is similar to something I really did after leaving k and m. Took a class at university called 'the sociology of deviance' and the assignment was to do something deviant and write a paper about it...so I gathered up my premie paraphernalia and headed to a neighboring university campus. Tried my best to behave just as I had remembered behaving as a bona fide premie. This was a very damning/uplifting experience for me...actually seeing the reactions of the students to this nonsense (i once was blind, but now i see). Not being shored up by a sense of spiritual superiority, I sure felt foolish...however, knowing (within inside of my innards) that I was pursuing an academic goal, I am sure I looked much more foolish than I felt.

p.s. but i did meet a few guys who seemed interested in maraji (i mean they wanted to date me).

;)

Love,
Victoria
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 23:08:24 (EDT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Victoria
Subject: Wearing MJ buttons
Message:
Yes sister, show me your knowlege!
I can provide posters for the parade, and will be sending some to
drek mans web site soon.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 03:12:23 (EDT)
From: Roger Drek
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: see it from the beach!
Message:
oh, you bet you can see it from the highway, the beach and from five miles away. It's on a prominent hill that acts as a no man's land for security. It is pretty much all by itself with a half a dozen or so much smaller houses further up on other hills.

It is light sandstone in color with what would appear to be a triangle wedge shape facing the ocean and looks almost like a fortress. The peak of the triangle is, of course, the Master bedroom. Somewhere to the right (as viewed fromt the highway) of the master bedroom is the living room that is sunken from the hallway and stairs lead down.

Again, much of the bulk of the house and garages is hidden from the highway. I checked www.terraserver.com for a satellite image, but the day that the Soviets (1989) took the picture it was clouded over, wouldn't you know it. Apparently, the area is not considered to be of much importance militarily.

We're talking huge plate glass windows and from the highway with good binoculars you can see people inside.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 10:16:19 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Roger Drek
Subject: Picture from the beach!
Message:
Why not having a picture of the marble palace taken from the beach?

I'd make one if I go there.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 15:38:26 (EDT)
From: Roger Drek
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Wanted: Photo of Malibu!
Message:
Are you going there? Yes, we need a postcard from Malibu!

Anybody in L.A. with a camera?

I bet that with a picture of the Marble Palace 50% of the fence sitters will fall off and 5% of practicing premies will come over, too. It's the ultimate hole in the arm where all of Daddy's money goes.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 21:35:06 (EDT)
From: dv
Email: None
To: Roger Drek
Subject: How bout all his houses?
Message:
I will take shots of his former houses in Miami. I can then e-mail them to your website.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 21:43:20 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: dv
Subject: Yes, send pictures!
Message:
Calling all pictures of Maharaji's houses, cars, boats, planes and trains, former ashrams, premie houses, premie businesses, dumpsters with Maharaji posters, whatever.

Let the world see the larder of the Lardy Lord.

drek@oz.net
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 03:50:58 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: Jet's pictures
Message:
Would be extremely helpful to know who's owning it.

At least it's ID #

Someone?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 15:28:59 (EDT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: anyone in LA area??
Message:
The 707 number was NHD707
the hd stands for hans dut which means -emporer of the soul!

The guy is absolutely without question the the most -I am
god- delusional one I have ever heard of.

Anybody in LA could go to the airport that is to the east
of Malibu and see the jet parked by some hanger of some
company like -air one- or some other company that
provides parking and services for private jets.
His would be easy to ask about. Not by his name, but there
are not many G-4's that would be at that airport and those
that were there there would be known.
'Oh that one is owned by such and such company' and so on.
Anyone in that area?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 18:21:25 (EDT)
From: chr
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: How bout all his houses?
Message:
How many residences does M have these days? At one stage in the early 80s he had two in the U.S.; and others in England, Australia, Italy and India.I would also be very interested in hearing about the jet. Is it really worth $24 mil? Does he own it or is it leased?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 03:59:58 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: chr
Subject: How bout all his houses?
Message:
Is it really worth $24
mil? Does he own it or is it leased?


We'll have every detail with it's ID #
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 04, 1999 at 00:11:01 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: Marianne's Journey
Message:
There's a new Journeys entry from Marianne Bachers online. Thanks for sending it in, Marianne.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 04, 1999 at 04:54:37 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Marianne's Journey
Message:
That was very nice. Congratulations, Marianne, for doing something in your life that has real meaning and helps people.

Reading about the cruelty in the Knowledge selection process reminded me of the videos about five years ago when Maharaji personally selected people for Knowledge and people would have to ask him directly. Talk about humiliation! I could barely stomach watching these things. The aspirants would say that they loved Maharaji and thank him and on and on and on.

I was very grateful when those videos stopped. I wonder if they are available for purchase. I would think not because they were horrible.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 04, 1999 at 09:53:53 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: katie@ex-premie.org
To: Marianne
Subject: Marianne's Journey
Message:
Hi Marianne -
When I read your Journeys entry, I was really struck at how similar your journey was to mine (especially years 1972-1974). We are the same age, received knowledge at the same time, and appear to have had many similar experiences and feelings. The story about not being able to go home for Christmas is terrible, however - I am really sorry that that happened to you and your family.

Thanks very much for writing it all down.

Best wishes -
Katie (Mischa).
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 04, 1999 at 12:22:49 (EDT)
From: Miloochie
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Marianne
Message:
Hi Marianne,

Thank you for your detailing your journey. It was very well written and truly grabbed me -- especially the Christmas story -- ouch. Christmas, in itself, can carry a huge burden of expectations, especially for family members. I have my own Christmas 'war stories.' ;-)

I was also interested to see you bring your version of what happened with the reporter who hit GMJ with a pie in Detroit:

Mahatma Fakiranand took one of the ashram premies and beat the pie thrower with a hammer. He was a reporter for an underground Detroit paper and had been really critical of DLM. The pie thrower did not die as the other entry suggests, but he was at death's door.

Each of us can contribute what we know, piece the past together, step by step, and thus, separate through the rumors, guesses, second-hand stories until all the truth (whatever that truth is) is documented.

Lastly, I think it is absolutely remarkable how you have come from a time of drugs and confusion (age sixteen), through whatever benefits (premie friends, etc.) offered to eventually finding yourself, your life's mission (it seems) and utilizing your intelligence, clarity, passion for justice/mercy. I'll bet your family is very proud of you.

So many who started off like you did are still drifting, or almost completely lost -- almost. Congratulations.

Miloochie
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 04, 1999 at 18:43:39 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: glyng@techline.com
To: Miloochie
Subject: Marianne
Message:
Come on, Marianne,
Baby...

Love yer story. Did you live at the premie house on Castro street?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 04, 1999 at 21:00:07 (EDT)
From: crow bar
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Christmas grinch and dinner
Message:
The mission bigwigs asked prem rawat if the premies could go
home for christmas and they were a bit shocked when he said NO.

It was not a Bill Patterson call. It was everywhere.
Even though there was no ashram in hartford in 73, (the
one there was moved to Boston in early 73), we still heard
the news that ashram premies were not to go home for christmas.

One year, about 1979, I bought presents for one ashram
premie to give his 2 brothers and his folks.
He did not ask me to do it but I just did.
There was certainly no budget for present for any one in
your family. Or even for a present for YOU.
There was rejoiceing in denver ashrams in 74 when toast
was rationed into the breakfasts.

One of the great overlooked factors in premie life is
the effect that haveing no protein to speak of has on
a humans brain and mental state.
'>'...bb
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 00:35:25 (EDT)
From: Marianne Bachers
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: crow bar
Subject: Christmas grinch and dinner
Message:
You are right. I now recall that after the Millenium debacle the powers that be did not want anyone going home for Christmas in 1973. Still, I blame Bill Patterson for not suspending the rules for a situation that was certainly unique. And, I blame myself for just not going home to see my mom when in my heart I knew that I should. I bear the ultimate responsibility for this one.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 14:10:53 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Marianne Bachers
Subject: Christmas grinch and dinner
Message:
I remember the 1973 Christmas decree. I also remember in 1979 in Miami, Maharaji came and spoke at Deca on Christmas day and said how pleased he was that the ashram premies stayed with their 'true' family and didn't so see their (apparently 'untrue') familes for the holidays. The decree, as to what he thought of families, couldn't have been clearer.

In that satsang, which was during the very intense devotional period he was then into, he said that if you didn't have devotion to Guru Maharaj Ji, you would go to hell. I was there when he said it, and I have a copy of the satsang as printed in Divine Times.

I don't know if you can really blame yourself. If you believed Maharaji was god, like I did, and that you had surrendered your life to him, you had no choice but to follow his commands, whether directly from him, or relayed through people like Bill Patterson.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 15:54:49 (EDT)
From: Roger INXS Drek
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: God is a concept by which...
Message:
JW,

Your post and the entire thread is really sobering and a shot in the face as to what we went through. It seems that the sacrifices that many of us made verge on cruel and unusual punishment meted out by a sick and sadistic Maharaji.

And we rationalized it so well because we believed that he was God and he never made any real effort to lead us to believe anything else. In fact, he makes every effort to reinforce that belief no matter what he's calling himself today.

I'm so disgusted that I say this: Too bad Maharaji isn't into sexual auto-asphyxiation. There could be no better ending.

(Forum Elves: The keyword is auto. I would only like to be the haberdasher who sells him that silk tie. No threat is intended nor desired. He will unravel himself.)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 19:52:02 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Roger INXS Drek
Subject: God is a concept by which...
Message:
Roger: Thank you for your comments. I have spent a substantial amount of time devouring your website today. It is fabulous. The Red Nighty chronicles are hilarious.
I read alot of the old forum posts and I have some questions. Can you -- or someone -- please educate me? Did GMJ have a mistress named Monica? Is Joan Apter still involved? What about the allegations of GMJ being an alcoholic? I remember right before Millenium he went into the hospital and was very sick. Someone not so savvy in Denver let it out that the doctors said GMJ had the liver of a 40 year old (he was 16 at the time). Back then, I immediately thought, 'Hey, that means he's been drinking alot!!!!' There are also vague references to 'abuse' in some postings. Some seems to relate to mahatmas and some seem to relate to GMJ. What is this about?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 20:24:39 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: God is a concept by which...
Message:
Hi Marianne
I've been meaning to post to you to say I used to live in Grand Rapids, MI, but I don't remember you (then again my premie days are a blur). Anyway you were in Kalamazoo, and only were in GR to receive knowledge, I gather.

Re: the allegations: Jagdeo, one of M's initiators, sexually molested several younger premies. M was informed of Jagdeo's crimes and didn't do anything about it. This was brought up by several people here, all of DEFINITE good character

Re: Joan Aptor-- Gail ,a Canadian ex-premie who posts here, has mentioned that Joan Aptor is still hanging around M. Gail mentioned a really creepy satsang that Joan gave where she (Joan) said that sometimes 'her mind' wished M's plane would crash and the whole thing would be over. Pretty warped, eh?

As far as his affair with Monica, I'm sure others can fill you in on that I was so naive, and had no clue about all the 'insidious and fruitbean' shit (TD's phrase) that went on. I should have made it my business to be better informed about the guy I was surrendering my life to. I never thought he was the Lord but I thought he was a legit Guru (whatever that means) --and of course we all knew a Guru was necessary to realize God back then in the spiritual supermarket of the 70's
Your journey story was excellent, glad you are here.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 21:21:26 (EDT)
From: Roger Plagarist Drek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Marianne
Subject: Hey, Writers she likes it!
Message:
Marianne, thank you for the compliment. However, the only art I do is through stealing and borrowing upon the works of others. The credit for the Chronicles of the Red Nighty (CORN) goes to a number of writers on the Forum which all started very spontaneously by the unsung Mr. History whose identity I alone know. I hope that those CORN writers appreciate the compliment and get back to work and write some more. If they don't I'll be forced to improvise and write a chapter myself.

It seems that your questions have been answered by others. Amazing stuff, isn't it. It's a dirty little deal going on down there in Malibu.

Thanks
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 12:50:58 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Marianne
Subject: God is a concept by which...
Message:
Dear Marianne,
Welcome and thank you for your journey entry.
As to your questions I can only address one and that is second hand. I met someone from the forum in person. He was very close to M before Millenium and each evening would go into a private living room and smoke pot with M. I don't remember for sure about the drinking, I think he said he was but it wouldn't be right to say I know when I don't.
He said when he was first around M as a younger boy, he did think he was god, it was what he was raised to be. He was idealic and thought he could help people but if he wanted to do something good he was often stopped by his elders. This became frustrating to him over time and he started using pot to escape and accept the fact that although he was god he could not 'run' things the way he saw fit. Eventually he gave into and accepted his fate and started to become bitter and corrupted, the results are what we read, hear about and some see today.
Love,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 18:29:13 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: M was just a concept
Message:
Robyn: Thanks for your comments. This is all very enlightening to me. Since I've been reading all the posts here, I have been having dreams about the 'old days'. It has really gotten into my subconscious. So, I guess we ashram premies were all supposed to observe strict rules and those in Denver, around GMJ, and GMJ himself, were exempt? Smoking dope and drinking, huh? At Millenium?!!!! I guess the fumes were supposed to launch us into space? I think telling the truth about these things is really important in order to put the experience in perspective. I am glad that I was able to add a personal account in the journeys about having seen GMJ get pied in Detroit and the aftermath.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 18:43:45 (EDT)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Exempt in Denver
Message:
As an aspirant I knew lots of premies who smoked dope and more, but the closer I got to knowledge, the more pious I got, and my circle of friends changed. It was such a large community in those days...if not for the premies on the fringe, who were living proof that you didn't have to give up ANYthing to get knowledge, I doubt if I would ever have done it. Of course, before I left it, I'd given up everything...from sugar to sex! as had many of my friends. The message changes depending on where you are in the spectrum, that's the reason for Aspirant meetings and meetings for 'people with knowledge' only and he is still doing it that way today in Malaysia and Japan.

Victoria

P.S. I know a fake-aspirant who finally admitted to me that the only reason he went to satsang was to pick up premie women who were 'easy' -- not like out in the real world.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 19:03:08 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Victoria
Subject: What was message to PAM's?
Message:
So, what was the message to the people around GMJ in the early 70's? Did they all see this behavior, engage in it and encourage it? Was it all really that transparent from the very beginning?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 19:34:10 (EDT)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: What was message to PAM's?
Message:
Marianne,

I don't know what the message was to the PAM's from direct experience. I met the fringe premies in fall of 1976, by spring of 77 some premies and aspirants in my circle were ready for the ashram and some were still partying and screwing around as much or more than ever. I remember making out with an ashram brother in front of the ashram once...made me feel really creepy, like I was committing a mortal sin by luring an ashram brother into pleasures of the flesh. Nobody said anything to me but the housefather gave me some really mean eye contact. My friend didn't get kicked out of the ashram until they closed, (years later) so...whatever that is worth.

My only really personal contact with a PAM was in my K session (which wasn't really all that personal) and later when I asked Ira Woods (i think it was) to explain to me why my meditation experiences were so frightening all of a sudden (when before they were so blissful) and why I kept having that experience of leaving my body and looking down at myself below...and would I one day be able to grasp control of that phenomena so it wouldn't happen at the wrong time. He pretty much said the same thing my friends were saying -- only he was more wooden and empty about it. If it feels good, it's Maraji and if it feels bad, it's your mind.

My experience with PAM's was from the back of the hall with 600-1000 attendees...we squealed with glee when Bill Patterson sang 'tis a gift to be simple.' We shouted out a bunch of Bolie Shri's when Charanand got on stage. We listened intently as Dennis Murphy (the cook) described his darshan experiences. Having a PAM give satsang was the closest thing you could get to darshan, since they could tell you how blissful it was when they got theirs, etc. etc.

=)

Love your posts, by the way. Keep on.

Victoria
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 19:48:30 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Victoria
Subject: Tis a gift to be evil
Message:
Whoa Victoira! You heard Bill P. sing 'Tis a gift to be simple'??? Retch, retch, retch. Where did this happen? He must still have been the director of the Kalamazoo ashram when this occurred. Bill P. was the most unfeeling, mechanistic, lacking in compassion person I ever had contact with during the entire time I was in DLM. His mother and sister were premies too. He is the person who brought Bob Mishler to GMJ, according to Bob's last interview. I always wondered what he had done in Denver to get sent away to be the general secretary of the backwater of Kalamazoo. As I said to another poster, perhaps he was just as annoying to others as he was to us.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 20:16:47 (EDT)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Bill Patterson
Message:
Denver Community Center, 1977 --

'Oh Bill Patterson, he is so blissful, I just love his eyes, I just love it when he sings that song, he really can't sing you know, but he is just a devotee like us and doesn't have any ego'

Yeah, like how could he get up in front hundreds of people and sing that song when he really couldn't sing at all?

I didn't know he was a honcho in Kalamazoo, i always thought he was some kind of initiator or special PAM -- everybody seemed to treat him with much deference in Denver in those days.

victoria
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 03:50:59 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Victoria
Subject: Bill Patterson
Message:
I liked Bill ok. I thought he was more humble than most pams- but im not really big on any of them these days.

Marianne,
People have posted that he left fairly recently (year or two?) and is involved in Indian classical music in some way ( I think i got it right).
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 08, 1999 at 05:27:29 (EDT)
From: chr
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: God is a concept by which...
Message:
Hi Marianne, glad to see you here. I don't know about M being an alcoholc, but I have certainly seen him drinking large amounts and have seen large amounts delivered to him. How regular this was/is I can't say. As for Monica, I never knew or heard of her or any affairs when I was doing security around M (c. 78-82) so I'm yet to be convinced of that one. Abuse- he could get angry over quite trivial things and he seemed very moody and unpredictable.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 19:41:01 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Christmas grinch and dinner
Message:
Yeah, I believed he was God. No 2 ways about it. That's why I didn't go home. I decided to ignore my better judgment in favor of the fears which had been instilled me and the supreme fear of banishment from the ashram. I find the postings in the site incrediby insightful, humorous, intelligent, and helpful. I haven't dwelled on my involvement in DLM alot in recent years, but it will always be a big part of my past because of the intensity of my involvement. The postings make me laugh at myself, at others, at GMJ (treason!), and at the drivel I accepted as guiding my life. It reminds me how I was surrounded with talented people whose lives were not being put to the highest use for themselves and the world. I think that the old Fprum entry about The Big Cheese just about sums it all up.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 06, 1999 at 20:17:49 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Marianne
Subject: Christmas grinch and dinner
Message:
Hey Marianne,

Some of the decisions I made about my life, because I believed Maharaji was the Lord of the Universe are among the things I regret most. Mostly it's the lost years, but more than that the pain I caused my family. It's something you can't dwell on, but it's something the former Lord of the Universe has never even acknowledged, let alone taken any responsiblity for.

By the way, I live in San Francisco. Fell free to e-mail me if you like; maybe we can get a cup of coffee sometime. I really liked your journey entry. I still haven't written one, but now I am determined to do so. Did you know the Loftus sisters from Kalamazoo? I lived with Connie Loftus in the Chicago ashram and her sister and her husband lived in the Kazoo community.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 10:09:03 (EDT)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: Marianne Bachers
Subject: Christmas grinch and dinner
Message:
Hey Marianne,

It's not your fault. You were following agya which at the time you truly believed...

I would have taken the koolaid, I surmised, after reading the Jim Jones story, if Jim had been MJi and we had been them...that's what good devotee-ji's we were. I guess we are lucky that M is more interested in the money ... after all, you can't beat a dead horse.

Love,

Victoria

p.s. great journeys entry =)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index