Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 46

From: Apr 27, 1999

To: May 17, 1999

Page: 2 Of: 5



Dufusweasel -:- Revenge or Healing -:- Sat, May 08, 1999 at 20:39:43 (EDT)
__Sir Dave -:- Revenge or Healing -:- Sat, May 08, 1999 at 21:15:39 (EDT)
____Catweasel -:- Revenge or Healing -:- Sat, May 08, 1999 at 22:17:13 (EDT)
______Jerry -:- Choices -:- Sat, May 08, 1999 at 23:58:02 (EDT)
____Dufusweasel -:- Revenge or Healing -:- Sun, May 09, 1999 at 02:04:05 (EDT)
______catweasel -:- Revenge or Healing -:- Sun, May 09, 1999 at 05:46:08 (EDT)
____Gerry -:- Revenge or Healing -:- Sun, May 09, 1999 at 10:32:48 (EDT)
______Catweasel -:- Revenge or Healing -:- Sun, May 09, 1999 at 12:06:45 (EDT)
________Jim -:- Hey, Cat's discussing!!! -:- Sun, May 09, 1999 at 13:23:37 (EDT)
__________Catweasel -:- Hey, Cat's discussing!!! -:- Mon, May 10, 1999 at 09:38:30 (EDT)
________Hairy Gerry -:- Revenge or Healing -:- Sun, May 09, 1999 at 17:58:58 (EDT)
__________CD -:- Revegie -:- Sun, May 09, 1999 at 19:28:57 (EDT)
____________Hirsuite Herardo -:- Revegie -:- Sun, May 09, 1999 at 21:11:33 (EDT)
__________Catweasel -:- Revenge or Healing -:- Mon, May 10, 1999 at 09:48:22 (EDT)
____________Your furry friend -:- Revenge or Healing -:- Mon, May 10, 1999 at 10:02:52 (EDT)
______________Robyn -:- Revenge or Healing -:- Mon, May 10, 1999 at 18:44:06 (EDT)
________________Harry -:- Revenge or Healing -:- Mon, May 10, 1999 at 19:44:26 (EDT)
__________________Robyn -:- Revenge or Healing(OT) -:- Mon, May 10, 1999 at 20:20:41 (EDT)

Nil -:- From an almost inactive thread -:- Fri, May 07, 1999 at 18:01:37 (EDT)
__Nil -:- From an almost inactive thread -:- Fri, May 07, 1999 at 18:04:37 (EDT)
____Jerry -:- From an almost inactive thread -:- Fri, May 07, 1999 at 19:36:55 (EDT)
______Nil -:- From an almost inactive thread -:- Fri, May 07, 1999 at 20:02:36 (EDT)
________Jerry -:- From an almost inactive thread -:- Fri, May 07, 1999 at 20:56:32 (EDT)
__________Nil -:- From an almost inactive thread -:- Fri, May 07, 1999 at 21:21:19 (EDT)
____________crow -:- For an almost inactive mind -:- Sat, May 08, 1999 at 04:26:08 (EDT)
______________Liz -:- Joan Apter and Charles Cameron -:- Sat, May 08, 1999 at 17:41:29 (EDT)
________________Marianne -:- Joan Apter and Charles Cameron -:- Sat, May 08, 1999 at 19:40:44 (EDT)
__________________Jim -:- It's funnier than that -:- Sat, May 08, 1999 at 22:00:06 (EDT)
__________________Liz -:- Joan Apter and Charles Cameron -:- Sat, May 08, 1999 at 23:23:39 (EDT)
____________________Roger E. Drek -:- Joan, Dettmers & resumes -:- Sun, May 09, 1999 at 16:22:26 (EDT)
______________________Runamok -:- Joan, Dettmers & resumes -:- Sun, May 09, 1999 at 17:02:13 (EDT)
______________________Mary -:- Joan, Dettmers & resumes -:- Sun, May 09, 1999 at 17:06:19 (EDT)
________________________Dr. Roger Drek -:- she said creative thinking -:- Sun, May 09, 1999 at 17:46:09 (EDT)
__________________________Laughing Her Arse Off -:- Val - the Senior EV Consultant -:- Sun, May 09, 1999 at 19:07:30 (EDT)
____________________________Rahab -:- Elan Vital -:- Mon, May 10, 1999 at 13:29:56 (EDT)
______________________KK -:- Joan, Dettmers & resumes -:- Mon, May 10, 1999 at 08:02:44 (EDT)
__________Katie -:- I agree with Jerry -:- Fri, May 07, 1999 at 22:16:58 (EDT)
__________Tia -:- From an almost inactive thread -:- Sat, May 08, 1999 at 18:35:53 (EDT)
____________Jerry -:- Deprogrammer? Moi? -:- Sat, May 08, 1999 at 19:20:21 (EDT)
______________Tia -:- Deprogrammer? Moi? -:- Sat, May 08, 1999 at 22:49:03 (EDT)
________AJW -:- Relgious beliefs. -:- Sat, May 08, 1999 at 06:16:57 (EDT)
__________Nil -:- Relgious beliefs. -:- Mon, May 10, 1999 at 21:36:45 (EDT)
____________AJW -:- Relgious beliefs. -:- Tues, May 11, 1999 at 03:23:04 (EDT)
______barney -:- From an almost inactive thread -:- Fri, May 07, 1999 at 20:10:56 (EDT)
______Liz -:- Embarrassed -:- Sat, May 08, 1999 at 17:11:32 (EDT)
________Nil -:- Embarrassed -:- Mon, May 10, 1999 at 21:30:07 (EDT)
__________Mary -:- Embarrassed -:- Mon, May 10, 1999 at 23:08:05 (EDT)
____________Nil -:- Embarrassed -:- Tues, May 11, 1999 at 21:14:03 (EDT)
______________Mary -:- Embarrassed -:- Tues, May 11, 1999 at 22:06:27 (EDT)
________________Nil -:- Embarrassed -:- Wed, May 12, 1999 at 21:30:13 (EDT)
__________Liz -:- Embarrassed -:- Thurs, May 13, 1999 at 02:29:30 (EDT)
______Tia -:- From an almost inactive thread -:- Sat, May 08, 1999 at 18:15:59 (EDT)
________Liz -:- White picket fence -:- Sat, May 08, 1999 at 18:54:36 (EDT)
__________Tia -:- White picket fence -:- Sat, May 08, 1999 at 22:58:16 (EDT)
________Nim -:- Are we projecting Tia? -:- Sat, May 08, 1999 at 19:18:43 (EDT)
________Jerry -:- A boring life -:- Sat, May 08, 1999 at 20:54:18 (EDT)
__________Tia -:- A boring life -:- Sat, May 08, 1999 at 23:04:31 (EDT)
____________Jerry -:- A boring life -:- Sun, May 09, 1999 at 00:38:02 (EDT)
______________Roger E. Drek -:- A boring life ***Best*** -:- Tues, May 11, 1999 at 03:37:45 (EDT)
________________Jerry -:- Thanks, Roger -:- Tues, May 11, 1999 at 08:10:07 (EDT)
______________Helen -:- Jerry and Tia -:- Tues, May 11, 1999 at 10:57:50 (EDT)
________________Diz -:- boring is as boring does -:- Wed, May 12, 1999 at 08:17:56 (EDT)
__________________Helen -:- boring is as boring does -:- Wed, May 12, 1999 at 10:17:15 (EDT)
____barney -:- brainwashing -:- Fri, May 07, 1999 at 19:49:06 (EDT)
______Nil -:- brainwashing -:- Fri, May 07, 1999 at 20:27:30 (EDT)
__Sir Dave -:- Where some have a problem -:- Fri, May 07, 1999 at 20:19:10 (EDT)
____Nil -:- Where some have a problem -:- Fri, May 07, 1999 at 21:15:10 (EDT)
______Brian -:- Where some have a problem -:- Sat, May 08, 1999 at 07:48:09 (EDT)
________Jerry -:- Where some have a problem -:- Sat, May 08, 1999 at 10:48:44 (EDT)
__________Liz -:- Where some have a problem -:- Sat, May 08, 1999 at 18:02:37 (EDT)
__________Nil -:- Where some have a problem -:- Mon, May 10, 1999 at 20:55:58 (EDT)
____________Jerry -:- Where some have a problem -:- Mon, May 10, 1999 at 22:32:19 (EDT)
______________Nil -:- Where some have a problem -:- Tues, May 11, 1999 at 10:04:03 (EDT)
________________Rahab -:- Where some have a problem -:- Tues, May 11, 1999 at 10:34:50 (EDT)
__________________Nil -:- Where some have a problem -:- Tues, May 11, 1999 at 21:12:02 (EDT)
________________Jerry -:- Where some have a problem -:- Tues, May 11, 1999 at 11:08:12 (EDT)
__________________Nil -:- Where some have a problem -:- Tues, May 11, 1999 at 20:54:21 (EDT)
________Nil -:- Where some have a problem -:- Mon, May 10, 1999 at 20:45:11 (EDT)
__________Jim -:- Article of faith, numero uno -:- Mon, May 10, 1999 at 22:04:48 (EDT)
__________Jethro -:- Nil..consider this -:- Tues, May 11, 1999 at 01:08:41 (EDT)
____________Jim -:- Great point, Jethro -:- Tues, May 11, 1999 at 22:59:07 (EDT)
______________Jethro -:- Great point, Jethro -:- Wed, May 12, 1999 at 04:10:47 (EDT)
__Nigel -:- You wanna talk about respect? -:- Sat, May 08, 1999 at 01:31:20 (EDT)
____Marshall -:- Good point! -:- Sat, May 08, 1999 at 01:58:02 (EDT)
______Liz -:- Good point! -:- Sat, May 08, 1999 at 18:57:05 (EDT)
______Nil -:- Good point! -:- Mon, May 10, 1999 at 21:13:58 (EDT)
____Nil -:- You wanna talk about respect? -:- Mon, May 10, 1999 at 21:05:38 (EDT)
______Liz -:- Solace in Lies? -:- Mon, May 10, 1999 at 22:20:08 (EDT)
______nigel -:- You wanna talk about respect? -:- Tues, May 11, 1999 at 08:15:51 (EDT)

Liz -:- Food For Thought -:- Fri, May 07, 1999 at 15:41:44 (EDT)
__Marianne -:- Food For Thought -:- Fri, May 07, 1999 at 16:20:12 (EDT)
____Ben Lurking -:- Food For Thought -:- Fri, May 07, 1999 at 18:38:08 (EDT)
____AJW -:- What happened to darshan? -:- Sat, May 08, 1999 at 06:45:54 (EDT)
______Marianne -:- What happened to darshan? -:- Sat, May 08, 1999 at 14:39:58 (EDT)
__Diz -:- Food For Thought -:- Sat, May 08, 1999 at 19:02:00 (EDT)
____Helen -:- Food For Thought -:- Tues, May 11, 1999 at 20:03:01 (EDT)

Roger Yahoo Drek -:- Yahoo Opposing Views -:- Fri, May 07, 1999 at 13:05:03 (EDT)
__Sir Dave -:- I don't get it -:- Fri, May 07, 1999 at 13:44:56 (EDT)
____Ben Lurking -:- I don't get it -:- Fri, May 07, 1999 at 18:42:39 (EDT)
__Liz -:- Altavista Gems -:- Fri, May 07, 1999 at 15:03:02 (EDT)
____Sir Dave -:- Altavista Gems -:- Fri, May 07, 1999 at 18:57:01 (EDT)
____Mary M -:- Forgiveness -:- Sat, May 08, 1999 at 08:59:09 (EDT)
______Mary M -:- Oops credits.... -:- Sat, May 08, 1999 at 09:09:04 (EDT)
______Sir Dave -:- Revenge is necessary -:- Sat, May 08, 1999 at 11:17:09 (EDT)
________Mary M -:- Revenge is necessary -:- Sat, May 08, 1999 at 11:35:42 (EDT)
____Jerry -:- Moving on -:- Sat, May 08, 1999 at 14:41:53 (EDT)
______Marshall -:- Moving on -:- Sat, May 08, 1999 at 15:24:18 (EDT)
______Marianne -:- Revenge? Forgiveness? -:- Sat, May 08, 1999 at 15:29:17 (EDT)
________david m -:- Revenge? Forgiveness? -:- Sat, May 08, 1999 at 17:15:55 (EDT)
________Roger E. Drek -:- ***Best of Forum others, too -:- Mon, May 10, 1999 at 12:45:42 (EDT)
______Liz -:- Moving on -:- Sat, May 08, 1999 at 17:57:43 (EDT)
________Liz -:- Moving on? -:- Sat, May 08, 1999 at 18:14:38 (EDT)
__________Helen -:- Moving on? -:- Sat, May 08, 1999 at 19:20:59 (EDT)
____________Liz -:- Moving on? -:- Sat, May 08, 1999 at 23:32:10 (EDT)

Jean-Michel -:- Last chapters now online -:- Fri, May 07, 1999 at 03:44:30 (EDT)
__Jim -:- I'm looking forward to that -:- Fri, May 07, 1999 at 09:53:43 (EDT)
____Jean-Michel -:- The Living M: now online! -:- Fri, May 07, 1999 at 12:06:49 (EDT)
__Liz -:- Last chapters now online -:- Fri, May 07, 1999 at 15:50:54 (EDT)
____Jean-Michel -:- Reg WIGM: service anybody? -:- Sat, May 08, 1999 at 04:28:55 (EDT)
______Liz -:- ME, Me ,Me,me,me,me! -:- Sat, May 08, 1999 at 18:32:36 (EDT)

Friend -:- bad boys -:- Thurs, May 06, 1999 at 19:12:55 (EDT)
__Sir Dave -:- bad boys -:- Thurs, May 06, 1999 at 19:41:01 (EDT)
__In a world of consequense -:- b b's -:- Thurs, May 06, 1999 at 22:22:55 (EDT)
____Sir Dave -:- Which end of the stick? -:- Fri, May 07, 1999 at 00:22:09 (EDT)
______Friend -:- Which end of the stick? -:- Fri, May 07, 1999 at 01:36:41 (EDT)
________Sir Dave -:- Which end of the stick? -:- Fri, May 07, 1999 at 07:51:53 (EDT)
__________Schoolmistress Helen -:- Which end of the stick? -:- Mon, May 10, 1999 at 13:07:58 (EDT)
____________Helen -:- Which end of the stick? -:- Mon, May 10, 1999 at 18:35:31 (EDT)
____________Robyn -:- to all -:- Mon, May 10, 1999 at 21:58:13 (EDT)
______________Mickey the Pharisee -:- to all -:- Tues, May 11, 1999 at 00:41:56 (EDT)
________________Robyn -:- to all -:- Tues, May 11, 1999 at 07:35:37 (EDT)
__________________Helen -:- Tigers and such -:- Tues, May 11, 1999 at 08:45:05 (EDT)

Jim -:- Maharaji Defences -- Any more? -:- Thurs, May 06, 1999 at 15:25:28 (EDT)
__Jim -:- first revision -:- Thurs, May 06, 1999 at 15:31:41 (EDT)
____Gregg -:- first revision -:- Thurs, May 06, 1999 at 15:36:58 (EDT)
______JW -:- Yes, the mirror -:- Thurs, May 06, 1999 at 15:45:52 (EDT)
____Diz -:- first revision -:- Thurs, May 06, 1999 at 20:15:32 (EDT)
__JW -:- Another Defen(s)ce -:- Thurs, May 06, 1999 at 15:43:14 (EDT)
____Nobody -:- Another Defen(s)ce -:- Thurs, May 06, 1999 at 16:49:12 (EDT)
__Victoria -:- Maharaji Defences -- Any more? -:- Thurs, May 06, 1999 at 15:49:30 (EDT)
__g's mom -:- So are you going to use the -:- Thurs, May 06, 1999 at 17:17:38 (EDT)
__Nobody -:- Maharaji Defences -- Any more? -:- Thurs, May 06, 1999 at 19:01:34 (EDT)
__Jim -:- The whole list - Roger? -:- Thurs, May 06, 1999 at 20:22:41 (EDT)
____Roger E. Drek -:- sure, unless Brian wants it? -:- Thurs, May 06, 1999 at 20:28:33 (EDT)
______Jim -:- sure, unless Brian wants it? -:- Thurs, May 06, 1999 at 20:36:49 (EDT)
________WAIT! -:- ONE MORE FOR YOUR CONSIDERATIO -:- Thurs, May 06, 1999 at 20:52:56 (EDT)
__________Jim -:- Sorry, Wait -:- Thurs, May 06, 1999 at 21:07:07 (EDT)
________Roger Slutty Drek -:- sure, unless Brian wants it? -:- Thurs, May 06, 1999 at 21:01:24 (EDT)
__________Roger E. Drek -:- *Maharajia Apologia posted* -:- Fri, May 07, 1999 at 02:47:58 (EDT)
____________Sir Dave -:- *Maharajia Apologia posted* -:- Fri, May 07, 1999 at 08:38:34 (EDT)
____________Jim -:- Thanks, Roger, it looks great -:- Fri, May 07, 1999 at 09:44:53 (EDT)
______________Jim -:- Critical addition -:- Fri, May 07, 1999 at 10:48:02 (EDT)
________________Gorilla in a monsoon -:- News Flash! -:- Fri, May 07, 1999 at 11:51:27 (EDT)
________________Roger Gun to Head Drek -:- *Done* (nt) -:- Fri, May 07, 1999 at 11:54:14 (EDT)
__________________Jim -:- No. 26 (thanks Nil) -:- Fri, May 07, 1999 at 21:39:00 (EDT)
____________________Roger EZ Drek -:- check it out! -:- Sat, May 08, 1999 at 03:05:10 (EDT)

Zac -:- Two Villians -:- Wed, May 05, 1999 at 20:17:18 (EDT)
__Robyn -:- Two Villians -:- Wed, May 05, 1999 at 20:39:30 (EDT)
____Traveler -:- Two Villians -:- Thurs, May 06, 1999 at 01:29:39 (EDT)
______Gregg -:- Ken Wilber -:- Thurs, May 06, 1999 at 15:30:44 (EDT)


Date: Sat, May 08, 1999 at 20:39:43 (EDT)
From: Dufusweasel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Revenge or Healing
Message:
This is topic I've enjoyed recently. I need to heal and the honesty of this Forum has helped me immensely, but the old saying 'REVENGE IS A DISH BEST SERVED COLD' is the current place I'm at in the most awful, terrible event in my life. i.e. receiving Knowledge and believing that the GURU cared about me.

I'm livid with rage for the years he stole from me, yet, I know that it was my choice. The BIG CON!!!
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Date: Sat, May 08, 1999 at 21:15:39 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com
To: Dufusweasel
Subject: Revenge or Healing
Message:
No, no, no. It was NOT your choice. Once you came with that innocent and open heart to receive knowledge from Maharaji and once you had been convinced that this was the Almighty God's own trip - the choice was taken away from you.

I remember thinking back in the seventies that I had no choice. I had to be into this trip whether I liked it or not. Such a massive con that is perpetrated on sincere people, leaves them with no choice.

This is one thing that you should not blame yourself for. You came like a lamb to the slaughter and were tricked in the most ruthless and insidious way.
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Date: Sat, May 08, 1999 at 22:17:13 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: Dont kid yourself
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Revenge or Healing
Message:
Bullshit ,it was and remains YOUR CHOICE!!!What you expected or believed were also your choice.Review it with the truth and you can move on to whereever you wish to go. Stay with that excuse and your'e stuck with these Jerks!
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Date: Sat, May 08, 1999 at 23:58:02 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Choices
Message:
Catweasel,

Sir David can look at it the way he pleases. Maybe he has some insights I don't have, but I agree with you. It was my choice. Like I told you before, it was a LOUSY choice. Leaving Maharaji and the silly perfect master game he's playing was a much better one. You want to keep playing his game? Well, that's YOUR choice. But its just a game, Cat. He's not really the perfect master. He's just some guy who's got some pretty nifty meditation techniques that speak well enough for themselves. Maharaji's not a requirement for experiencing what those techniques have to offer. Do you doubt that?

Let me tell you something, Cat. I don't know why you're hanging out here. You're not trying to understand anything or converse with anybody in a civil manner. You've been howling like a wounded animal since you got here, fangs bared and snapping at anybody who tries to talk to you. Do you think you're going to bring us back to the fold? Is that what you're trying to do? That's not going to happen. If anything, you're the one who's going to wind up on our side of the fence. So stick around. Maybe some of what people are trying to tell you will sink in. Freedom is on our side of the fence, not your's. Indulge yourself.
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Date: Sun, May 09, 1999 at 02:04:05 (EDT)
From: Dufusweasel
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Revenge or Healing
Message:
Thanks for your response, I was a victim. Yet, I clearly remember, I gave up getting some good pussy(sorry to anyone offended)to receive knowledge. As a woodstock guy from 60's, I wanted peace and God realization. I bought M's sack of shit because I wanted to believe. I'm embarassed about what I told people(LOTU ETC,)

20+ YEARS AND while I'm glad to be out( sort oF)-- I don't know if this ABSOLUTE HORROR/NIGHTMARE will ever become past tense.

All I know to do, is take action and save others.
I will soon begin going to local events/programs/videos whatever and giving people this website as alternative to what they have just been exposed to.

Catweasel is a waste of time. HOWEVER, HE DOES FOLLOW THAT STRING!!
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Date: Sun, May 09, 1999 at 05:46:08 (EDT)
From: catweasel
Email: None
To: Dufusweasel
Subject: Revenge or Healing
Message:
You'd be wasting your time.I know I'm wasting mine!
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Date: Sun, May 09, 1999 at 10:32:48 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Revenge or Healing
Message:
No, no, no. It was NOT your choice...

...This is one thing that you should not blame yourself for. You came like a lamb to the slaughter and were tricked in the most ruthless and insidious way.


Dave,

I think this message is an important one which rarely gets mentioned, or at least doesn't get mentioned enough.

We were misled, hypnotized, sleep deprived, protein starved satsang-arti-meditation mesmerized.

Not much freedom in a prison camp. Might be a decent dylanesque song in it, though.
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Date: Sun, May 09, 1999 at 12:06:45 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: The sky is falling!!!
To: Gerry
Subject: Revenge or Healing
Message:
Jesus your a drama queen!!You couldnt WALK??I did,no problem.I didnt blame M for other peoples over the top interpretations,why do you,and why didnt you have the guts to exercise choice?If you had you might not be as bitter and twisted as you are now.The practice of knowledge allows you to see through a lot of the stuff you freaked out on.I still see M often and enjoy knowledge every day,and none of that stuff happened to me,what happened was it didnt feel right so I went and lived somewhere else,went to'satsang 'as it was then and kept practising.Yeah,I was a vegetarian until the mid 80's,but I dont think that hurt!There was choice ,there still is,so dont deny that.In not excersising yours ,you screwed up, no-one else!
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Date: Sun, May 09, 1999 at 13:23:37 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Hey, Cat's discussing!!!
Message:
First, Cat, you litle jerk, have you ever posted before here under another name? Are you Bruce for instance?

But beside that, your answer omits any discussion of the pressure one felt to not 'blow it' on the assumption that Maharaji was the Lord of the Universe. Without mentioning any of that you kind o miss everything.

(Hey, guys, was that polite or what? What's that? Take out the 'little jerk'? Aw, come on. Do I have to? Come on! I don't So good to see you stoop low enough to actually talk with us, you little jerk.
want to. He is a little jerk, isn't he? .....

alright, I'll take it out.)

Cat, please disregard the first part of this post and read only this:

First, Cat, my friend, have you ever posted before here under another name? Are you Bruce for instance?

But beside that, your answer omits any discussion of the pressure one felt to not 'blow it' on the assumption that Maharaji was the Lord of the Universe. Without mentioning any of that you kind o miss everything.
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Date: Mon, May 10, 1999 at 09:38:30 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: Jim the caveman
To: Jim
Subject: Hey, Cat's discussing!!!
Message:
Dear Jim ,I wouldnt piss on you if you were on fire!Your style requires only one answer-contempt!But your beneath that,so you get nothing.
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Date: Sun, May 09, 1999 at 17:58:58 (EDT)
From: Hairy Gerry
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Revenge or Healing
Message:
All I'm saying Cat, is that there was a certain amount of ''convincing'' done when I was an aspirant. And certainly afterwards, there was tremendous pressure to join the ashram.

Total surrender was the message. I admit, I fell for it hook, line and sinker. Maybe you didn't. Regardless I voted with my feet after around a year at the loaded feet. So I wasn't totally lacking in guts.

It was the practise of knowledge that let me down. I didn't mind the ashram for the six months or so I was there. It was novel and fun living communally at that age. But the meditation just wasn't happening for me. I still can't meditate.

Nothing wrong with vegetarianism, although I'd recommend the ''Eat right for your blood type diet,'' myself.
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Date: Sun, May 09, 1999 at 19:28:57 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Hairy Gerry
Subject: Revegie
Message:
>Nothing wrong with vegetarianism

Thats right.
You confuse the issue with outlandish statements like you were 'protein starved' and the reference to being in a 'prison camp'. The vegie diet was very good for me. I was in good shape and had plenty of strength.
Regarding the tough communal life, I did steal the house van for a day joyride to the beach and got kicked in the shin for that. No biggie.

CD
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Date: Sun, May 09, 1999 at 21:11:33 (EDT)
From: Hirsuite Herardo
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Revegie
Message:
Hi Chris,

The vegie diet can be very beneficial, especially if you have type A blood. That's my guess for you. Am I correct?

You say ''tough communal life'' Did you experience it? It was kinda like ''spiritual boot camp.''

Fortunately I flunked out. At any rate, I think I said it was an ok experience (since I lasted only six months or so), and it appears you are trying to change this to some sort of a negative statement. You wouldn't do that, would you Chris?

How many times are you going to mention the day you stole the ashram van (with other premies, of course, probably the whole household) and drove fecklessly to the beach?

You crack me up.
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Date: Mon, May 10, 1999 at 09:48:22 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: None
To: Hairy Gerry
Subject: Revenge or Healing
Message:
But maybe you threw the baby out with the bathwater.To practice knowledge doesnt require any special qualities,you just do it.I left the ashrams because I didnt enjoy it!And I was judged but not by him.More likely by a lot of the hypocrites who inhabit this site before they became ex's!It works and I've found Maharaji to be avery kind person both publicly and privately.
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Date: Mon, May 10, 1999 at 10:02:52 (EDT)
From: Your furry friend
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Revenge or Healing
Message:
I don't think I threw out the baby with the bathwater. There was no baby in the water. It was only dirty, used bathwater. It went down the drain.

Meditation doesn't work for everyone. I've experimented with a few others besides knowledge. I used my wife as a ''control.'' In every case, she had an ''inner'' experience while I didn't experience anything more exotic than my usual waking consciousness.

I'm sure I'm not unique in this respect. And M's ''one-size-fits-all'' meditation clearly won't work for everyone. In this respect alone he is a poor teacher or guide. And certainly his views on life are skewered.

I've seen his public pesona on video. I don't know about his private personality, but I've heard from others who were close to him, that he is all too human. Please expand upon your personal experiences with him. I'd like to hear the other side.
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Date: Mon, May 10, 1999 at 18:44:06 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Your furry friend
Subject: Revenge or Healing
Message:
Dear Furry,
I remember when you first met Jim and he posted here about it. He said whatever you think he looks like, he doesn't look anything like that, or something similar. Now I know what he meant. You are a hairy beast aren't you. :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Mon, May 10, 1999 at 19:44:26 (EDT)
From: Harry
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Revenge or Healing
Message:
Hi Robin!

You have a long memory. Yes I did hang out with the notorious Jim-meister in his native habitat. l'm sticking to the forest shadows nowadays. Too many humanoids for us homonoids. Or maybe I'm getting paranoid.

so 'har ya?

The naked Ape
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Date: Mon, May 10, 1999 at 20:20:41 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Harry
Subject: Revenge or Healing(OT)
Message:
Dear Harry,
Funny thing is I have a terrible memory but sometimes obscure facts stick with me forever! :)
Last time I was in the forest, on a rock near a creek, some humanoids caught me! I didn't have that protective hair like you though. Damn!
I've been going through some stuff but things started feeling better last night though. Thanks for asking.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, May 07, 1999 at 18:01:37 (EDT)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: From an almost inactive thread
Message:
...myself and others think that if you were entirely honest with yourself you would see that he doesn't know you from Adam?

I say this respectfully Mickey... for you to claim that I'm NOT honest myself just because I feel what I feel about Knowledge and Maharaji is a breach of respect. You don't know me or what I've been through. The problem so many of you seem to have is that you are so convinced he is a fraud that you think anybody who still follows him must be... deluded, dishonest, stupid, closed-minded, brainwashed, a non-critical thinker, yada, yada, yada. Well, I guarantee that if you knew me you would never call me any of those things. So just how do you live with this degree of ambiguity? Well, a less than concious person might just cut out a square hole and a round one, and try to make everybody fit into one or the other. A more concious person would keep an open mind.
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Date: Fri, May 07, 1999 at 18:04:37 (EDT)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: From an almost inactive thread
Message:
The ex-premies have broken free from the mind control and we no longer subscribe to the constant brainwash from Maharaji. You've been brainwashed and we are only pointing that out to you and your responses are typical of someone who has been brainwashed. Is that clear?

Why are you so intent upon proving this point to us barney? You clearly are bent on it. Could it be that, like born-again Christians driven to 'convert' at all cost, you are really trying to convince yourself. Do you REALLY believe what you're saying barn? Another question... how much of your belief is dependant upon the numbers of like-minded disenchants you've found scattered around the world to back you up? I mean... get enough neo-nazis together on the web and it could look like a movement... right?
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Date: Fri, May 07, 1999 at 19:36:55 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: From an almost inactive thread
Message:
Another question... how much of your belief is dependant upon the numbers of like-minded disenchants you've found scattered around the world to back you up?

This is a good question, Nil. Right before I found this website I was about to renew my commitment to practicing K, for the umpteenth time. I had been toying with the idea of leaving it, altogether, for about a year, I guess, but I wasn't ready to give up on it just yet. When I found this website and people voicing similar doubts to my own, that was all the push I needed to abandon ship. Its been a source of support ever since.

Now, about being a premie. Don't you have a support system that keeps you going? Isn't that what satsang (now videos), and festivals are all about, to continually inspire? Wasn't it the encouragement of other premies that got you involved in the first place, that pushed you beyond your misgivings? Nobody operates alone. Maybe John Wayne does but the rest of us need support and encouragement to follow through on our convictions. That's just the way it is. And I'll tell you, Nil, I feel a lot stronger in my convictions as an ex than I did as a premie. As a premie, to be perfectly honest, I was more embarrassed than I was anything. As an ex, I feel that I'm finally getting my head screwed on straight.
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Date: Fri, May 07, 1999 at 20:02:36 (EDT)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: From an almost inactive thread
Message:
Don't you have a support system that keeps you going?

You're right... support for things that are important to us is something we cherish. I don't however feel personally that I still follow Maharaji because of a support system. For example, I have had precious little interaction with premies or videos for many months due to circumstances, and my love for Maharaji and Knowledge is still going strong. There's no denying Jerry the example you are presenting... you already doubted its value in your life, and when you found others of like mind, it gave you the courage to walk away from it. So tell me, because your committment was admittedly not strong, does that make Maharaji untrue? Because mine is still there, does that make me deluded, dishonest, brainwashed, etc.?
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Date: Fri, May 07, 1999 at 20:56:32 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: From an almost inactive thread
Message:
So tell me, because your committment was admittedly not strong, does that make Maharaji untrue? Because mine is still there, does that make me deluded, dishonest, brainwashed, etc.?

I honestly couldn't tell you, Nil. I no longer believe in masters. But because I don't believe in them, does that mean they don't exist, that the ones who say they are, are frauds? It would be pretty arrogant for me to say 'yeah' to that question. It might sound cliche, but I believe the old adage is true. You do what you think is best in your life and I'll do what I think is best in mine. You say you're love for M & K is strong. Are you sure what you've got is real? If so, carry on. It's no skin off of my nose.

I really don't care about people who are as sure of themselves as you. It's the ones that feel something is terribly wrong, deep inside, that I would like to encourage to jump ship. Guys like you? You've found what you're looking for as far as I can tell. It would be stupid of me to tell you you haven't. I'd be banging my head on the wall.
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Date: Fri, May 07, 1999 at 21:21:19 (EDT)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: From an almost inactive thread
Message:
You do what you think is best in your life and I'll do what I think is best in mine.

...that's fair.

But because I don't believe in them, does that mean they don't exist, that the ones who say they are, are frauds? It would be pretty arrogant for me to say 'yeah' to that question.

Yours is not the view of many here. Good luck.
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Date: Sat, May 08, 1999 at 04:26:08 (EDT)
From: crow
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: For an almost inactive mind
Message:
You choose to ignore his mom, brothers, sons, former
instructors, former premies, gopis, and such
stellar devotees as Bill Patterson and Jim Hession.
Even Joan Apter has been reduced to a sorry state.
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Date: Sat, May 08, 1999 at 17:41:29 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: crow
Subject: Joan Apter and Charles Cameron
Message:
I decided to do a search (Altavista) on Joan Apter & Charles Cameron to see what they were both up to these days.

Joan and other premies mentioned on this site have a Company called Ideas Champions.

Charles has invented a game based on the Glass Bead Game by Herman Hesse.He also quotes 'I have been a sort of godfather to the development of Tibetan buddhist monastic centres in Europe and U.S. and to a Lakota ceremonial Sun dance in Oregon.'

Neither of them mention their lives with m, probably because they are too embarrassed too!

Love,

Liz
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Date: Sat, May 08, 1999 at 19:40:44 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: Joan Apter and Charles Cameron
Message:
Liz: Hey girl! Lots of interesting posts you've been putting up. How are you? My hearing is going very well still. I remain optimistic about the outcome. I return to court on Monday. Anyway, Charles Cameron.... I had a writing friendship with him for a couple of years. I always liked him and have often wondered if he was still involved. It sounds as though he is. Am I correct? Where did Charles and Joan get money to start a company? They were poor ashram premies the last I recall. Neither ever worked except for DLM, but my information is so dated. Anyone else out there got any information on this subject?
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Date: Sat, May 08, 1999 at 22:00:06 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: It's funnier than that
Message:
Actually, we found some stuff on Cameron last year. It turns out he's part of this ongoing think/tank or seminar or I-don't-really-know-what-it-is... an institute, yeah, that's it, an institute, called the 'Millenium Project', I think (I never saved nothing but its in the archives somewhere and should be easy enough to find online again). This here Millenium Project fails to remind everyone to start their new calendars from 1973. Too much, eh? Who'd have ever imagined, twenty-five years later, Cameron would be promoting himself as some sort of an authority on the Millenium but entirely out of the context of Maharaji?
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Date: Sat, May 08, 1999 at 23:23:39 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Joan Apter and Charles Cameron
Message:
Hi Marianne,

If you want to see what Charles is up to type in Charles Cameron on Altivista if you have Altivista. His web-site is interesting.

Joan's was separate and when I typed in her name it was all about Idea Champions - a company she is involved in along with some other premies I think I seen mentioned on the forum.

I never would have guessed you would know Charles. Small world eh? I get the feeling he isn't involved or ashamed to admit it - one or the other.

Regards,

Liz
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Date: Sun, May 09, 1999 at 16:22:26 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: Joan, Dettmers & resumes
Message:
I can't help but see similarities and connections between Joan Apter and Michael Dettmers as it appears that they share a client list:

For seven years, Ms. Apter was the Regional Training Manager for Elan Vital, Inc., an international non-profit educational organization. Some of her other clients include Novotel Hotels, Coca Cola, AT&T Metropolitan Life Insurance Company, Pacific Bell, The Breakthrough Foundation, The Ojai Foundation, and a wide variety of educational and volunteer groups.

Not that there is anything wrong with networking and cronyism.

Maybe it's me, but the following seems like she is misusing the term postgraduate work to give reference to postdoc, terms usually reserved for people with a Masters or Ph.d. I think that continuing education is more appropriate. Joan has only a B.A. in Communication from a private university in Appleton, Wisconsin.

Ms. Apter holds a Bachelor of Arts degree in Communication from Lawrence University in Wisconsin. Her postgraduate work has included courses in human resources, organizational development and creative thinking.

Sure, I'm getting picky here and I understand pragmatism. Joan and others have a real dilemma trying to put together a decent resume after spending years in Maharaji's road show as puppets. What is it that they went through? They spent years and years trying to jockey themselves into the inner circle. They created, maintained, and destroyed an organization that gave them a free ride to where no one has ever gone.

I'm sure that they did do some work. It would be most interesting to get a kiss and tell book from one of them detailing their daily routine.

For example: Woke up at noon, dressed and drove the Dodge Dart to the Residence for my two o'clock appointment with Maharaji. Waited three hours and was told my meeting was cancelled because Maharaji was engrossed in a missing Leave It To Beaver episode. On the way home stopped at Baskin-Robbins and pigged out on Jamocha Almond fudge (Maharaji's favorite.) Stopped by the DUO office to get some petty cash for dinner. On the way home from dinner picked up a XXX video and spent the rest of the evening locked in my room at the ashram.
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Date: Sun, May 09, 1999 at 17:02:13 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: Joan, Dettmers & resumes
Message:
You're absolutely right, it's a misleading statement which implies she has at least a masters.
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Date: Sun, May 09, 1999 at 17:06:19 (EDT)
From: Mary
Email: None
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: Joan, Dettmers & resumes
Message:
Roger.... I'm choking on my chocolate cake;-)

Ms. Apter was the Regional Training Manager for Elan Vital, Inc., an international non-profit educational organization

What the hell was I learning, other than ingenious ways to grab hold of a Security Goons Gonads to let me out of places this Educational Organization would lock me in??????

But, back to Joan's Vitae and shoot Dettmers too for that matter. HR consulting firms are the easiest ones to fleece large corporations. Need a new mission statement? No problem, pay me $5,000. Voila! Like catchin fish out of a barrel. Need a CQI team on the proper methodology to slice pickles in the company 'dining area'? No problem. $10,000 and I guarantee you my finest industrial engineers will come up with a better method as well as a Pickle Vision Statement for the minimum wage workers to find fulfillment slicing pickles for the Corporate Elite!!!!

Educational Organization.... sheeeeesh.... I'm gettin more cake!

Love,
Mary M
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Date: Sun, May 09, 1999 at 17:46:09 (EDT)
From: Dr. Roger Drek
Email: None
To: Mary & Runamok
Subject: she said creative thinking
Message:
Yup!

Ms. Apter was the Regional Training Manager for Elan Vital, Inc., an international non-profit educational organization

Like Joan said she did postgrad work in creative thinking

Talk about being damaged by the Cult, here it is. You got to lie like a mutha on your resume to cover all the lost years.

Seriously, can you imagine the trouble you'd have coming up with a resume if, say, you were in the Krishna's or Children of God and were in charge of the sexual abuse program.

Perhaps, Joan should get into the Career and Resume Repair business and fix up careers like these:

war criminals
Concentration Camp guards
White House interns
Sex Workers
Drug Dealers
etc.
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Date: Sun, May 09, 1999 at 19:07:30 (EDT)
From: Laughing Her Arse Off
Email: None
To: Dr. Roger Drek
Subject: Val - the Senior EV Consultant
Message:
Doctor Roger,

Would you be so kind to compile a list of the 'Senior Consultants' with Elan Vital?

I am presently organizing a watermelon seed spitting contest and need the advice of Senior Spin Meisters.

Prior to his work with Idea Champions, Mr. Vadeboncoeur was a senior consultant for Elan Vital, a non-profit, educational foundation. In addition to his organizational development work, Val has practiced what he's preached by co-authoring a book, Working Abroad, and performing a wide range of managerial functions in the theatre (directing, writing, stage managing - all of which he brings to bear in his current position with Idea Champions.)

Sincerely,
Ms Zucchini
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Date: Mon, May 10, 1999 at 13:29:56 (EDT)
From: Rahab
Email: None
To: Laughing Her Arse Off
Subject: Elan Vital
Message:
Non Profit Educational Foundation.

Dear LHAO,

Now that Elan Vital is publicly acknowledged as an Eductional Foundation, culpability for sexual misconduct has far more ramifications.

Some, if not all of the former EV Educational Foundations Consultants could be held accountable for any sexual improprieties committed on individuals involved with the Education curriculi, particularly those committed by the Educational Foundations Senior Level Consultant: Mr. Jagdeo.

R
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Date: Mon, May 10, 1999 at 08:02:44 (EDT)
From: KK
Email: None
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: Joan, Dettmers & resumes
Message:
Brilliant.
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Date: Fri, May 07, 1999 at 22:16:58 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: katie@ex-premie.org
To: Nil
Subject: I agree with Jerry
Message:
Hi Nil -
I think this is the first time I have posted to you (at least in this incarnation - maybe we have talked to each other on Usenet a while back?). I wanted to let you know that I do agree with Jerry in re your experience. We probably disagree as to the source of your experience, but again here, I agree with Jerry: who am I to say?

Jerry also wrote:
I really don't care about people who are as sure of themselves as you. It's the ones that feel something is terribly wrong, deep inside, that I would like to encourage to jump ship. Guys like you? You've found what you're looking for as far as I can tell.

I also agree with this, although I'd probably say it a bit differently. It's not that I don't care about people like you (I'd probably like you if we met in person) - I just don't care to argue with you about our differing experiences with Maharaji.

I'd been out of touch for a long time prior to finding the ex-premie site, but it didn't take me long after starting to post on this forum to find out that there were still people who were practicing knowledge and were experiencing personal fulfillment (sp?) by following Maharaji. And to feel that it was pointless to argue with them (unless of course they started attacking the ex-premies or the site itself). I know that everyone on the forum doesn't feel this way, but I do. However, I also found out that there were still people who were following Maharaji and were un-happy, or who had left and still had bad feelings about it. Those are the people I could really relate to - I'd been in their shoes (and still am, to a certain extent).

Anyway, in short, I wanted to say that I do respect your experience with Maharaji, even though I may not be able to understand it (and I also respect that you were able to see through some of the weird stuff that came down in the seventies - I certainly wasn't able to do that). I hope you can respect the fact that I did NOT have that experience, although I really did practice diligently in the way Maharaji said (meditation, service, and satsang). I felt inadequate for a long time because of that, but I now feel like it was all right. And that I'm all right too.

Take care, Nil -
Katie
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Date: Sat, May 08, 1999 at 18:35:53 (EDT)
From: Tia
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: From an almost inactive thread
Message:
Jerry,
Do you participate in deprogrammings from time to time or have you participated in one?
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Date: Sat, May 08, 1999 at 19:20:21 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Tia
Subject: Deprogrammer? Moi?
Message:
No, Tia. Why do you ask?
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Date: Sat, May 08, 1999 at 22:49:03 (EDT)
From: Tia
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Deprogrammer? Moi?
Message:
Re: Deprogrammer? Moi?
Your answer is very coy, Jerry. I was just wondering, Jerry.
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Date: Sat, May 08, 1999 at 06:16:57 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: anthginn@yahoo.com
To: Nil
Subject: Relgious beliefs.
Message:
Hi Nil,

Not all ex-premies believe Maharaji is a fraud.

Religions have lots of benefits for people who follow them, and for people who don't follow them too. They also, of course have a downside.

I followed Maharaji for over 25 years and experienced all sorts of positive things on lots of levels in my life. One of the main things that kept me going was the deep feeling that our prime purpose in life is get close to the Creator. When you have a means to do that, eg practising knowledge and worshiping Maharaji, and you do it sincerely, you feel the inner satisfaction of knowing you are playing the game of life well. You definitely have your priorities right, you do it and it feels good. You mix with other people who are doing it and feeling good too, and everything is hunky dory.

So what I'm saying here Nil, and I'm not in any way meaning this as a put down, is maybe what I was experiencing, and what you are experiencing, are the benefits from being an active member of a religion.

If God really is all merciful, loving, knowing etc, will he or she ignore sincere devotion, whatever form it comes in, be it worshiping a statue of a cow, an executed criminal, blue skinned flute player, old indian bloke with long beard and lots of expensive cars, middle aged indian bloke without beard and lots of expensive cars, whatever.

Wadya think Nil?

Anton el seriousdiscusser.
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Date: Mon, May 10, 1999 at 21:36:45 (EDT)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Relgious beliefs.
Message:
...maybe what I was experiencing, and what you are experiencing, are the benefits from being an active member of a religion.

I tried a few religions but they didn't satisfy the thirst I had. Can't say what anyone else was thirsting for... I suppose there are many who DO thirst for a group experience, but that was not me. I wanted knowledge of my core being. I wanted to have a method that allowed me to know it for myself through experience, and not through belief. I wanted to be alone with my Creator. Anyway, thanks for your point of view.
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Date: Tues, May 11, 1999 at 03:23:04 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Relgious beliefs.
Message:
Hi Nil,

Do you think the followers of other Masters are deluded, because Maharaji is the only true Master?

(When asked this question, I used to answer something along the lines of, 'He's the only one I've met....etc' but really I meant 'Yes')

Anth.
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Date: Fri, May 07, 1999 at 20:10:56 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: From an almost inactive thread
Message:
Jerry said, As an ex, I feel that I'm finally getting my head screwed on straight.

I'm feeling this myself and it doesn't have to do with the approval that I get from the good people here. However, I do get to see that what I'm going through in breaking free is part of the process that others have gone through. Admittedly, there is a lot of good friendly support, acceptance, and bickering like real humans instead of that phony blissed out happy-face I-Am-A-Follower-Of-The-Living-Master-And-All-My-Troubles-Are-Washed-Away.

It feels good to come down from the spiritual elitism and social isolation that comes with following Maharaji and get my feet back on the ground and feel like a regular mortal who is one day going to die and learn to try to deal with my problems head-on instead of hoping for some grace of Maharaji to pull me through. Sure, this can be hard, but at least it's really real and not make believe.

I am anticipating possible rebuttals including #9, #17, #18, and especially #23 of Maharajia Apologia.
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Date: Sat, May 08, 1999 at 17:11:32 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Embarrassed
Message:
I agree with you Jerry althought I didn't realise it at the time mone of my most obvious emotion (to others) along that of fear was embarrassment. Knowing that normal people must think I was absolutely crazy following this greasy fat Indian around the world.

I felt really good about following him myself (away from normal people) because I felt like I was following 'God'. Now my bubble has been burst I miss the pilgrimages and have to learn to appreciate God EVERYWHERE, just where he/she should be - not limited to a greasy fat Indian!

I'm sure appreciating my family and friends more already. I even remember peoples birthdays now (something that was limited to m's birthday before because he was the only really important one).

How wrong could I have been all those years. When I think of it I feel bad that I missed my sister's 50th and my Dad's 80th birthdays.

Love,

Liz
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Date: Mon, May 10, 1999 at 21:30:07 (EDT)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: Embarrassed
Message:
Knowing that normal people must think I was absolutely crazy following this greasy fat Indian around the world.

Funny how the older one gets the more they care about what 'normal' people think of them. BTW, is this part of the therapy... i.e., if you can say vulgar things about him you must be 'free' of his influence? Just a word of etiquette Liz... when you speak about someone so disparagingly in the company of others who respect him, it speaks ill of your character.
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Date: Mon, May 10, 1999 at 23:08:05 (EDT)
From: Mary
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Embarrassed
Message:
when you speak about someone so disparagingly in the company of others who respect him, it speaks ill of your character.

Hi Nil,

I think you're in the wrong forum. There's not too much respect for Mahaharaji among X/3 participants. In fact most of us consider him to be quite an odious character.

Liz is a woman of character and she is respected by many on this forum. If you must make statements about anyone respecting m, I think you'll find a much more receptive audience on any of Elan Vital's Educational Foundation sites.

Luv,
Mary M
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Date: Tues, May 11, 1999 at 21:14:03 (EDT)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Mary
Subject: Embarrassed
Message:
Mary, is there anybody who openly criticizes Maharaji that you don't respect?
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Date: Tues, May 11, 1999 at 22:06:27 (EDT)
From: Mary
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Embarrassed
Message:
Mary, is there anybody who openly criticizes Maharaji that you don't respect?

I know you're not going to believe this Nil, yes, there are people that criticize M that I don't respect. I try to remember that sometimes the hurt comes in waves and 'anger' is part of the process of healing.

Shoot, sometimes I get peeved at myself. It's an odd situation this coming to terms.

There are boundaries that I alluded to with Katie concerning outing. There are other boundaries that I've set and tried to adhere to. Sometimes I do get contrary and cantankarous. My suggestion is to ignore me then.

I'm an advocate for forgiveness. It is my personal goal in coming to terms with M. Why? I think the intense anger and bitterness ultimately leads to an unbalanced perspective. Yes, right now my perspective may be a bit skewed, I'll never believe that M is anything but a businessman. Ultimately I hope the pendulum ends up steady and centered.

Finally, I never did get to thank you for protecting the women. This has nothing to do with this subject but you disappeared for a while.

So... Thank You Nil

Mary
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Date: Wed, May 12, 1999 at 21:30:13 (EDT)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Mary
Subject: Embarrassed
Message:
Finally, I never did get to thank you for protecting the women.

I appreciate your grace in thanking me. I protected a couple of men too (...yeah, sometimes we need protecting).

The thing that disappoints me sometimes is how some people whom I know made a habit of staying out of the firing line, now speak ill of the character of others who did so. You can disagree now with the cause for which they stood, but they put their butt on the line, and sometimes jeopardised their own safety in doing so... and it DOES take more guts to do that than snipe from the bushes. Sorry, guess I used your thank you as a springboard to my own soapbox...
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Date: Thurs, May 13, 1999 at 02:29:30 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Embarrassed
Message:
Dear Nil,

You are right. It shouldn't come down to criticizing a person for the way they look. Take a look at what m does. Perhaps this will be more convincing for you.

Love,

Liz
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Date: Sat, May 08, 1999 at 18:15:59 (EDT)
From: Tia
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: From an almost inactive thread
Message:
Jerry,
Wait until your whole life tastes like cardboard, after you have tryed with all your might to stop the practise of knowledge for a while. Wait until all life is for is the 9 to 5, a nice house, picket fence, nice mate and 2.5 children...and of course the Weekends! Live for the Weekends, birthdays, just any ocassion to celebrate, so that you can forget how boring the rat race is.
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Date: Sat, May 08, 1999 at 18:54:36 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Tia
Subject: White picket fence
Message:
Tia,

I am not being sarcastic here, that really hit a nerve. I think this was the reason I got into k in the first place. And the reason I really want to get more creative. To save me from the humdrumness of it all.

I did have a beautiful walk with my lovely daughter in the rockies today but I guess I'm one of the lucky ones. It didn't sem a bit humdrum today although I know what you mean.

Love,

Liz
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Date: Sat, May 08, 1999 at 22:58:16 (EDT)
From: Tia
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: White picket fence
Message:
Liz,
Yeah, I know. Staying away from the hum drum seems to take so much work sometimes.
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Date: Sat, May 08, 1999 at 19:18:43 (EDT)
From: Nim
Email: None
To: Tia
Subject: Are we projecting Tia?
Message:
Live for the Weekends, birthdays, just any ocassion to celebrate, so that you can forget how boring the rat race is.
Tia...YOU ARE BORING.
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Date: Sat, May 08, 1999 at 20:54:18 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Tia
Subject: A boring life
Message:
Wait until your whole life tastes like cardboard, after you have tryed with all your might to stop the practise of knowledge for a while.

Is this what you did? It's not a requirement to stop meditating after you leave the cult. I'm only beginning to appreciate M's method of meditation, something I never did as a premie.

Wait until all life is for is the 9 to 5, a nice house, picket fence, nice mate and 2.5 children...and of course the Weekends! Live for the Weekends, birthdays, just any ocassion to celebrate, so that you can forget how boring the rat race is.

This isn't my life you're talking about, Tia. I doubt it's ever going to be. Is it what became your's? I'm sorry to hear that. I'm more sorry if you thought Maharaji was your only means to avoid it. That doesn't strike me as being much of an option.
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Date: Sat, May 08, 1999 at 23:04:31 (EDT)
From: Tia
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: A boring life
Message:
Jerry,
Why don't you try to stop practising the techniques for a while? Don't you think that would be an good experiment? You would be completely free from any type of control. There are other types of meditation techniques and ways to discover your soul.
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Date: Sun, May 09, 1999 at 00:38:02 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Tia
Subject: A boring life
Message:
Why don't you try to stop practising the techniques for a while? Don't you think that would be an good experiment? You would be completely free from any type of control.

Why should I? I get something out of them. This is only a recent development though. When I was a premie, meditating was more of a holy ritual, a summons to perform my divine duty, than it was to just relax for awhile. Of course, in that respect, when I felt it was a necessary ritual for spiritual growth, the meditation failed me. Now I see it's a good means to relax. Why would I give that up? I also meditate only when I want to, for as long as I want to. It works better that way. This fifteen minutes of this than fifteen minutes of that only makes meditation a burdensome bore.

No, Tia, I finally learned how to make k work for me, no thanks to Maharaji. I no longer see any reason to give it up. I had stopped practicing for awhile and felt better when I did. But now I've started up again on my own terms, without a need to find God, or make the seed grow, or any of that stuff. It just helps me to relax. For as long as it does that, I'll keep practicing.

I am free from control.

There are other types of meditation techniques and ways to discover your soul.

I know, and I use to enjoy them more than k. Maybe that's because I never used them to 'discover my soul', just to relax. When I want to discover my soul I listen to Stevie Ray Vaughn play guitar.
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Date: Tues, May 11, 1999 at 03:37:45 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: A boring life ***Best***
Message:
Jerry,

That was a real nice post. And I think that it is important for people to understand that just because we've left Maharaji that we do not or cannot have some kind of inner experience from meditating.

I'm sure that many premies who enjoy meditating but are afraid of leaving Maharaji, which they might be considering, would like to know that you can have your cake and eat it too.

***Best of the Forum***
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Date: Tues, May 11, 1999 at 08:10:07 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: Thanks, Roger
Message:
And to show my appreciation, here's a link that a man of your sublime appreciations might find useful to include on your sight, maybe put it somewhere between Steven Segal's guru and something or whatever. Or maybe you could even forget I recommended it if you're wise enough:

When All Else Fails
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Date: Tues, May 11, 1999 at 10:57:50 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jerry/Tia
Subject: Jerry and Tia
Message:
Jerry
I'm really enjoying your posts lately. Just wanted to let you know. You must be drinking cognac and smoking cigars with VP lately. You are Mr. Mellow these days.

I haven't forgotten your tape. Been a little preoccupied working 2 part-time jobs. I will get it done soon.

Tia--regarding boredom, boredom is an emotion or state of mind I've never been able to understand cause I've never had it. Was more bored following Maharaji to tell you the truth, than I am now. Bored/frustrated because of the limits on intellectual curiosity, activities, etc, trickling down from into the premie culture from the Head Honcho himself.
Sounds like knowledge provides the sparkle in life for you. Honestly, maybe practicing knowledge and following Maharaji did add a little sparkle in my life, but now that I'm not following him anymore, the sparkle is still there. Following M had a lot of other baggage, like chasing him around the country, that wasn't sparkly at all, it was downright chaotic and reckless and crazy-making for me. Not at all peaceful.

I kind of like the stuff of life that you might find hum drum, like holidays and birthdays and stuff , just hanging out with the family. To be honest I like the hum drum stuff of life very much and it's not at all boring to me.

Helen
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Date: Wed, May 12, 1999 at 08:17:56 (EDT)
From: Diz
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: boring is as boring does
Message:
Hi Helen

Thanks for the CD offer. Can I swap it for another title?

Thanks too for putting in a plug for the boring and normal. I started to write a response along the same lines but didn't get it together.

Got me thinking though. Particularly about kids - one of the things Tia said was boring was 2.5 kids. I don't find my kids boring, far from it. But I remembered, out of the dim past, that before I had kids, when I was a super ashram premie, kids just seemed like the most boring thing.

Maybe I'll write a thread about this boredom thing sometime. Reclaiming my ability to enjoy the simple things in life has been a big thing for me in leaving MJ.

Diz
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Date: Wed, May 12, 1999 at 10:17:15 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Diz
Subject: boring is as boring does
Message:
Hi Diz,
Hey girl, I agree, kids are not boring, although in all fairness being cooped up in the house with children day in and day out can drive one mad.
I think M really scared us by making normal life sound horribly dull in comparison to practicing knowledge, like eating cardboard when one could be eating Godiva chocolate all the time. Knowledge would illuminate life and take it to another level so that we wouldn't have to live lives of dreary monotony. M mocked normal life as he still does, bragging about his rolexes and planes, etc.

In all fairness I know premies who enjoy their normal everyday life also and just find that knowledge helps them enjoy it more. I guess I never have found even the most blah day to be boring because I am so busy all the time. I would welcome a little boredom, such as I rememeber from childhood laying around in a treehouse reading a book or something
Love
Helen
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Date: Fri, May 07, 1999 at 19:49:06 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: brainwashing
Message:
good question Why are you so intent upon proving this point to us barney?

Basically, Nil, that is probably one of the bottomlines as to what this website is about. Don't forget that I was in it for some twenty-five years. Coming the Ex-Premie.org was a step in breaking free from the brainwash that is part of the cult modus operandi (sp?) and I know that you will disagree with that description as I, myself, used to disagree when I was a believer.

However, I am no longer a believer in Maharaji and one reason is because I no longer subject myself to the constant harangue of satsang or videos or staying in touch or whatever you want to call it these days. And I've come to the conclusion that it was mind control through commonly used brainwash techniques that kept me there for so long.

Obviously, this message of mind control through brainwashing will have no appeal to you as you have no doubts in your faith and your Master. However, for the Premie who is sitting on the fence or the potential aspirant coming to this website this information might be able to help them make a life choice that can avoid what I now consider a serious mistake that I made years ago.

I remember years ago being told by my friends and family that Maharaji was mind control and brainswash. And as a premie I heard about the sinister Rick Ross or Ted Patrick or whomever it was that was Deprogramming premies and how I thought that I'd never be taken alive and I'd never crack and give into them. And now some 25+ years later I wish to God that I had never been sucked into the damn thing. The time and energy I wasted and sucking up Maharaji's twisted lame and stunted philosophy to guide me through my life all under the threat of rotten vegetables and shattering into a million pieces and going to hell.

Come on, wake up. Think objectively about it. That's some sick shit that Maharaji laid on us.

And, Nil, I know I'm wasting my words on you. Ultimately, this isn't for you. Don't be so self-centered. I hope you don't stop coming here, but you are providing a vehicle for us to get our non-message out to people. I say non-message because whereas Maharaji fills your head with something he says that you already have we are only providing the toothpick with which to pry his crap clean. I sincerely believe that the ex-premies do not have any other agenda (e.g. come up with a new philosophy.) The crap that Catweasel and others saying this is a cult is a total bogus red herring to cloud the issue and any reasonable person can readily see that. The ex-premie message is for anyone who comes in here and needs it and wants it. Someone who wants out of the cult. This is, afterall, a public forum

Look around the web for information on brainwashing and read it and compare it to what Maharaji did and is doing. There might even be links here in ex-premie.org and Roger Drek has some too.

Also, check out #17 and #18 of the Maharajia Apologia.
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Date: Fri, May 07, 1999 at 20:27:30 (EDT)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: brainwashing
Message:
Coming the Ex-Premie.org was a step in breaking free from the brainwash that is part of the cult modus operandi (sp?) and I know that you will disagree with that description...

Before I encountered Maharaji, I knew I wanted to find my own core. I knew it would take dedication to go there, and I knew I couldn't get there on my own... I tried. When I first heard him talk, he spoke straight to my heart. I feel I have thought for myself since day one (as much as a kid in their early 20's can). Over the years I often held contrary views to the more staunch premies of the lot... yes, some didn't think for themselves whom I would consider indoctrinated. I couldn't stomach many of them so I didn't take their objections to me too seriously. Besides, no matter what they thought of me, I only felt acceptance from Maharaji. And it's a funny thing, the closer I got to M, the more I saw that he appreciated people who could think for themselves. So yes, I strongly disagree.
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Date: Fri, May 07, 1999 at 20:19:10 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com
To: Nil
Subject: Where some have a problem
Message:
And that includes me. Nothing wrong with having a guru and doing meditation. But for many of us here who went through Maharaji's trip in the seventies when he was the Lord and who sacrificed our lives to him; well we can't stomach Maharaji's convenient forgetfulness of that period.

We weren't following a guru but were following God on Earth. Some heady trip that. Imagine the disappointment, betrayal and anger when it turns out that God was no more than a small family business.
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Date: Fri, May 07, 1999 at 21:15:10 (EDT)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Where some have a problem
Message:
I'm following the same person today that I was following in the seventies... same Knowledge, same fulfillment.
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Date: Sat, May 08, 1999 at 07:48:09 (EDT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Nil
Subject: Where some have a problem
Message:
You wrote:
I'm following the same person today that I was following in the seventies... same Knowledge, same fulfillment.

Sort of like Satpal? Satpal is still 'the same person'. You must remember him if you've been around that long. Same person, same Knowledge, same fulfillment. Just different marketing approaches is all. Would you put him in the same league as his youngest brother? Would you characterize him as a fraud? Are his devotees 'deluded' into following the wrong person in search of the 'same Knowledge'?

You also wrote:
The problem so many of you seem to have is that you are so convinced he is a fraud that you think anybody who still follows him must be... deluded, dishonest, stupid, closed-minded, brainwashed, a non-critical thinker, yada, yada, yada. Well, I guarantee that if you knew me you would never call me any of those things. So just how do you live with this degree of ambiguity?

It's your overlooking what HAS changed that causes you to be self-branded as dishonest or brainwashed. Nobody here is saying that Maharaji is a different person than Sant Ji Maharaj was.

The ambiguity exists on the pro-Maharaji side only. You continue to allow Maharaji to be 'The One' who shares what you consider to be a great gift - Knowledge. Who have you shared it with - without steering them to Maharaji to be 'The One' who takes credit for their breath? Satpal places a greater value on Knowledge than Maharaji's followers do. They're too caught up in placing the 'same' importance on 'gratitude' (nee 'devotion') to him.

You're willing to overlook the fact that you once (still do?) considered him to be the Lord. Now he's just 'the same person' - meditation teacher and omnipresent concerned friend?? How is this ambiguity honest, Nil?
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Date: Sat, May 08, 1999 at 10:48:44 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Where some have a problem
Message:
Satpal places a greater value on Knowledge than Maharaji's followers do.

Is that right? Then Satpal is a better teacher than M. M pollutes the experience of K with his constant demands for gratitude. To me, this was the worst part about being a premie. I wasn't allowed to just enjoy the experience of K. I had to be thankful for it. I think that's more important to Maharaji than having a good experience in meditation (and screw anybody who doesn't like me calling it that. That's what it is). He wants devotion. I don't think he gives a shit what you're getting out of it so long as he's getting what he wants from it.

One odd thing is that since I've left Maharaji and become an atheist, I actually do get some enjoyment from the meditation. Nothing''s poluting the experience anymore. I can take it for what it's worth, a means to having some peace in my life by just focusing on that phenomena within. I don't see bright lights. I don't hear choirs of angels. But I do see and hear what's REALLY there. I get peace from focusing on that. It airs out my system. Thanks Maharaji. Now stop bending my ear about how wonderful you are, willya? Jeez.
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Date: Sat, May 08, 1999 at 18:02:37 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Where some have a problem
Message:
Interesting post. Yes, atheists can enjoy meditation too.
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Date: Mon, May 10, 1999 at 20:55:58 (EDT)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Where some have a problem
Message:
I get peace from focusing on that. It airs out my system.

If that's all you wanted it for you're right... you don't need Maharaji. You've sold the experience short IMHO. That's fine. If it can help you enjoy life... then there's nothing left to do but get on with the job of enjoying it.
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Date: Mon, May 10, 1999 at 22:32:19 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Where some have a problem
Message:
If that's all you wanted it for you're right... you don't need Maharaji. You've sold the experience short IMHO.

Actually, Nil, I wanted much more. Much, much, much more. That's the problem. I was encouraged to pursue God realization with k, something it couldn't provide. So I was always disappointed. It never took me that far and I felt it wasn't working as a result. If I just let it do what it actually can, provide a few moments peace, I find some value in it. I think this might even be the slant Maharaji's taking on knowledge himself these days, to just leave it be for what it is. Am I right? It took him long enough. Maybe finally 'realizing' knowledge himself is part of that evolution he says is happenning in his life. Sounds like it might be.
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Date: Tues, May 11, 1999 at 10:04:03 (EDT)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Where some have a problem
Message:
It has shown me everything I ever wanted... which includes knowing God.
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Date: Tues, May 11, 1999 at 10:34:50 (EDT)
From: Rahab
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Where some have a problem
Message:
It has shown me everything I ever wanted... which includes knowing God.

Nil,

Is your experience of God somewhat like Enochs?

R
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Date: Tues, May 11, 1999 at 21:12:02 (EDT)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Rahab
Subject: Where some have a problem
Message:
Since people's articulation of their experience of God has never come close to the actual (...although many have tried), we'll never know. First of all I don't know who Enoch is/was. If I knew who he was and I tried to answer your question, his interpretation would conjure images and feelings in your own mind which you would compare to those conjured by me. There could be similarities but no one would ever know how close they were. Having said that, Rumi sure strikes a chord with me. I love his poetry.
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Date: Tues, May 11, 1999 at 11:08:12 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Where some have a problem
Message:
I don't believe in God so I guess I'll have to settle for a little peace. I wonder when God first came into the picture concerning meditation. I suspect that the original purveyors of the art didn't intend for it to be that, but instead used it as a means of enhancing awareness and getting a nice little buzz every so often. After all, that's all its really good for.
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Date: Tues, May 11, 1999 at 20:54:21 (EDT)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Where some have a problem
Message:
I suspect that the original purveyors of the art didn't intend for it to be that, but instead used it as a means of enhancing awareness and getting a nice little buzz every so often. After all, that's all its really good for.

Have a good life Jerry.
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Date: Mon, May 10, 1999 at 20:45:11 (EDT)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Where some have a problem
Message:
Brian, you're not making any sense... although I'm sure you do to yourself. I'll repeat... I'm following the same person today as I did in th seventies. I don't care... call him Lord; call him anything you want to. WHO CARES!! He showed me God, and continues to show me. If you think a bunch of techniques you pull off a website could show you the same thing, you're incredibly naive. And what does does Satpal have to do with anything anyway? Satpal never gave me or you jack-shit... Maharaji did.
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Date: Mon, May 10, 1999 at 22:04:48 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Article of faith, numero uno
Message:
If you think a bunch of techniques you pull off a website could show you the same thing, you're incredibly naive.

How do you know?
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Date: Tues, May 11, 1999 at 01:08:41 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Nil..consider this
Message:
'Satpal never gave me or you jack-shit... Maharaji did. '
Actually this is questionable. If you 'received knowedge' in the 70s the chances are that you were 'initiated' by a mahatma who was NOT appointed by M, but by the naughty Mata Ji, who according to M did not have the true authority. So many of the 70s 'premies' in fact do not have K.
M didn't start 'giving ' people K until recent years.

Who gave you K?
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Date: Tues, May 11, 1999 at 22:59:07 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Great point, Jethro
Message:
Yes, that's it. Follow the money. Or agya. Follow the agya.
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Date: Wed, May 12, 1999 at 04:10:47 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Great point, Jethro
Message:
I notice that Nil did not answer my post nor did any other of his mind-set.
When I was a premie I had answers to those questions. I'm just curious about how they justify it to themselves or do they just say something like 'Well this is all MIND, I just won't acknowledge it'.
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Date: Sat, May 08, 1999 at 01:31:20 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Nil
Subject: You wanna talk about respect?
Message:
I say this respectfully Mickey... for you to claim that I'm NOT honest myself just because I feel what I feel about Knowledge and Maharaji is a breach of respect

Hi Nil,

Your words would carry more weight if you showed a little more respect yourself, and remembered where you are, ie, visiting an ex-premie forum. I have seen precious little respect on your part for any of the regular posters here. You never consider the feelings of those who feel they have been damaged by their experiences with Maharaji, nor will you condider the possibility that Maharaji is is in the least way responsible for that damage.

As the saying goes: respect has to be earned.

Why not post your thoughts as 'expressions' to enjoyinglife.org instead? You'll get all the respect you could dream of there, and - hey - nobody will ask you to think critically about anything.
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Date: Sat, May 08, 1999 at 01:58:02 (EDT)
From: Marshall
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Good point!
Message:
I think this is a very important point that Nigel is making about the repression of the pro Maharaji sites. At one point E.L.K. claimed to have a, 'conversations page under construction'. Well, surprise, surprise they never constructed it and now there is no mention of it all.
Nil, can you appreciate the significance of the conversations taking place here? Do you really understand what is going on here? Because I don't think you get it, somehow.
You like to debate and explore issues here about Maharaji and knowledge, but do you reralize that this is the only place where you are free to do so. On any of the pro Maharaji sites you have to express yourself in a stale, unnatural, formatted style.
Doesn't it mean anything to you that the only place with free and open discussion about knowledge and Maharaji is here? Really, how do you explain the fact that you are not able to express anyting substantial on the pro Maharaji sites?
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Date: Sat, May 08, 1999 at 18:57:05 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Marshall
Subject: Good point!
Message:
Hi Marshall,

No conversations and no rememberances. Are you Kidding!
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Date: Mon, May 10, 1999 at 21:13:58 (EDT)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Marshall
Subject: Good point!
Message:
Really, how do you explain the fact that you are not able to express anyting substantial on the pro Maharaji sites?

Well... perhaps the purveyors of the other site intended it to be for something other than a discussion forum. Perhaps it is intended to provide specific information to help people interested in getting on with practicing Knowledge, and are not interested in the debating ad nauseum. Perhaps my heart doesn't need to know your point of view to be fulfilled. Perhaps this site is the site that is designed for people who are plagued with doubt. Perhaps that's just the way it is.
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Date: Mon, May 10, 1999 at 21:05:38 (EDT)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: You wanna talk about respect?
Message:
Your words would carry more weight if you showed a little more respect yourself, and remembered where you are, ie, visiting an ex-premie forum.
What... now you're giving me grief for being respectful? Christ man, I can't please some of you guys no how. BTW I was being respectful to Mickey... not you. Maybe you'll earn mine someday, but you won't through posts like this one.

You never consider the feelings of those who feel they have been damaged by their experiences with Maharaji...
That's not true... it's obvious to me some of you are in pain. What I totally disrespect is the lies within which you find your solace.
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Date: Mon, May 10, 1999 at 22:20:08 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Solace in Lies?
Message:
Isn't this where you find your solace? Why do you have to listen to the same thing over and over and over again from M if you have the confidence in K that you are making us think you have?

Sorry if I upset you. You are right I shouldn't have said insulting things about M but I'm sure greatful to have him off my back. Why would anyone want him around? I feel he is a hinderance in the experience of now.
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Date: Tues, May 11, 1999 at 08:15:51 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Nil
Subject: You wanna talk about respect?
Message:
I wasn't critising you for using the word 'respectfully'. Re-read your own quote. You were also demanding respect for yourself. Like I said, respect has to be earned. You could earn a little of my respect if you can answer the following:

(1): Which lies?

(2): Would you admit that the way Maharaji presented his 'total devotion' message in the seventies, plus the heavy threats of what would happen to those who left the movement, make him responsible to some degree for the pain you acknowledge?
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Date: Fri, May 07, 1999 at 15:41:44 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Food For Thought
Message:
Also on Altavista (Guru Maharaji) was an Army Chaplains Book on various religions including Elan Vital. Quote 'There are no ethical practises. Service, satsang and meditation results in an inner code of conduct which guides behaviour.' (This is quite an up to date entry.)

Any Thoughts on this?

Love,

Liz
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Date: Fri, May 07, 1999 at 16:20:12 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: Food For Thought
Message:
What happened to darshan?
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Date: Fri, May 07, 1999 at 18:38:08 (EDT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Food For Thought
Message:
She got athletes foot and was disallowed from programs by TPTB
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Date: Sat, May 08, 1999 at 06:45:54 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: What happened to darshan?
Message:
You missed it Marianne, it was yesterday afternoon.

Anton le flashback
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Date: Sat, May 08, 1999 at 14:39:58 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: What happened to darshan?
Message:
Oops. I must have fallen asleep while I was meditating and missed it.
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Date: Sat, May 08, 1999 at 19:02:00 (EDT)
From: Diz
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: Food For Thought
Message:
Hi Liz

Yeah, I've got some thoughts on this, but I'm not sure how clear they are right now.

It would be wonderful if having an internal experience of bliss resulted in the development of a personal ethical code. I used to think that was what was/would happen. I no longer think that is the case. Mostly because when I compare the ethics of premies with those of other people I know, the other people tend to come out ahead. Which isn't to say that some premies don't have a good ethical structure.

However I think those that do have developed it DESPITE MJ's trip, rather than because of it. The format MJ uses for teaching, which nowadays is basically continual exposure to his ideas and his ideas alone, is not conducive to listeners developing their own ethical structures. Debate within a framework which encouraged mutual respect, openness and maturity might have done so, and perhaps the internal experience could have been encorporated. Also, the content of MJ's continual input, live and through videos, is hardly directed at developing what most people would think of as ethics. It's primary aim is to encourage people to be self-absorbed, with 'self' defined as the inner, oceanic experience (of which more anon). At times he has specifically ridiculed relationships, psychological self-development, involvement in community 'causes', and responsibility in the world: all areas which a decent ethical code should at least consider.

It is for this reason that I don't think he's really into spiritual or human growth, in any rounded sense of the words. I was glancing through the Guru Papers yesterday, and read the beginning of their chapter on ... something like... 'the seduction of surrender'. They talk about the longing we all have to go back to the time when we were babies and had no responsibilities, our every need met etc. (personally, I think that could be extrapolated back to the womb). And about how spiritual teachers can play on that. Well, I reckon that's EXACTLY what MJ did and does. This return to oceanic bliss is all very well. I don't have anything against it per se. But to equate it to human growth! No way is it equivalent. Being able to go back into full surrender may be a PART of being human - without it you can't appreciate many things, including sex, sun showers, lying in the sun, playing with kids even - but there's much much more to growing up. As I'm finding out daily. Such as taking responsibility for one's own understanding, and finding ways to be a productive part of the human community.

From what I've read and heard about abuse in religious organisations, and particularly in 'guru' situations - not just MJ - I now really think that going back to swim in the internal primaeval soup, and learning to be a decent human being, are two distinct activities. One does not preclude the other, but neither does one lead automatically to the other. In fact, indulgence in 'spirituality' can be the very thing that prevents true human growth.

Take care, Liz. I really enjoy your posts - thank you.

Diz
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Date: Tues, May 11, 1999 at 20:03:01 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Diz
Subject: Food For Thought
Message:
Hi Diz, great post, the content reminded me of what Father Love's journey story had to say about lack of responsibility and how it was kinda fun to be mindlessly feeding our appetites for bliss euphoria, sex, drugs, and ice cream during our Maharaji days because after all, we belonged to M and ultimately it was all M's responsibility. I think you'd enjoy his journey story now on line. (do I make a convincing commercial) If you read it today we'll send you this new CD called 'Gotta get a guru' absolutely free!!!
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Date: Fri, May 07, 1999 at 13:05:03 (EDT)
From: Roger Yahoo Drek
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Yahoo Opposing Views
Message:
Well, Roger's House of Maharaji Drek made it into the Yahoo section for Maharaji, but they've created a subcategory of Opposing Views and put Jean-Michel's site and Ex-Premie.org there as well.

Furthermore, Maharaji has marshalled additional battalions to the frontline. Now there are five - Maharaji.orgasm, Depreciation, EnjoyingAfterLife, Elan Vital, and Blurred Vision International.

Small is no longer beautiful - more is better!
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Date: Fri, May 07, 1999 at 13:44:56 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Roger Yahoo Drek
Subject: I don't get it
Message:
When I do a search for Maharaji on Yahoo I just get the three sites coming up, ex.premie.org, Jean-Michel's site and maharaji.org. Nothing else.
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Date: Fri, May 07, 1999 at 18:42:39 (EDT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: I don't get it
Message:
Use savvysearch - It shows ex-premie first, it cross searches most and shows you where it got the results from.
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Date: Fri, May 07, 1999 at 15:03:02 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Roger Yahoo Drek
Subject: Altavista Gems
Message:
Hi,

I've just been perusing on Altavista. I typed in GURU Maharaji anand there was lots of juicy stuff there for newcomers here.

I expect you old-timers find this old-hat. Enlightening for all us newies though!

I recommend it for the likes of Denise anand Marianne if the you haven't already seen it.

I had been typing in just Maharaji and missed it. I especially enjoyed 'True Love Banishes Fear'

It made me think that when we know we have to forgive our enemies (ie:Marianne working with death-rowers) Why do we have such a hard time forgiving M (for our own benefit) and excepting not going back and moving on?

Enjoy,

Love,

Liz
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Date: Fri, May 07, 1999 at 18:57:01 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com
To: Liz
Subject: Altavista Gems
Message:
Ah but if all the ex-premies had forgotten and moved on, that web site which you've mentioned would not have been compiled.

What better reason for NOT forgetting, so that newcomers can read all about The truth about Maharaji.

Regarding forgiveness; surely a person must seek forgiveness for it to mean anything. Instead of using the word forgiveness I'd prefer to talk of prevention. Preventing Maharaji from capturing innocent people into his trip which is very hard for some people to extracate themselves from.
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Date: Sat, May 08, 1999 at 08:59:09 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: Forgiveness
Message:
Hi Liz,

Why do we have such a hard time forgiving M (for our own benefit)

Be it old-timers or new-timers, the human psyche is quite a complicated mechanism. I'm certain that all of us here on x/3 intuitively know that we need to forgive M for our own benefit, but many times when individuals come to this site they've not realized how much has been repressed.

Then there's what I call the 'trigger post'. It can be a premie or ex, it doesn't matter and all of a sudden a kaleidescope of memories come bubbling up out of our sub-conscious that we'd completely sublimated to another realm of our mind. When this happens to me the assimilation process that leads to forgiveness takes time. Usually I'm shocked first, then I'm angry, then I'll ponder it, then I'll either let go or am unable to let go because it feels like I'm walking around with a 'twelve inch knife in the belly of my soul'.

Depending on one's viewpoint the years with M were either, 'the best of times or the worst of times'. For me they were the worst. Nobody likes to be deceived.

I truly believe it was all a scam by M or by his cronies here in the U.S. and I'm not sure who has who by the short hairs;-) Who knows, m may simply be a convenient commodity that sells well (or used to) an everyday necessity like a toilet bowl brush to the Dettmers, Delaskis, Jacobs, Pascottos, Gross......They pulled in some pretty good revenue as a result of him.

In the meantime I find that I am able to start laughing about some of the memories, crying over others, and letting my 'Irish Temper' flair over a few;-) this is all part of the process that leads to forgiveness not only of m but of myself for being so easily misled.

That's enough for now. Another good search site is www.savvysearch.com

Luv,
Mary M
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Date: Sat, May 08, 1999 at 09:09:04 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: Oops credits....
Message:
Forgot to give credit to my references!

'Best and Worst of Times'... maybe Churchill or Eisenhauer

'knife in the belly of my soul' Bruce Sprinsteen?

xo
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Date: Sat, May 08, 1999 at 11:17:09 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com
To: Mary M
Subject: Revenge is necessary
Message:
and then perhaps one day, Maharaji might ask for forgiveness. I don't believe in forgiving a crook unless they have changed their ways. And anyway, Maharaji isn't a personal friend whom I'd be glad to gorgive but a distant charlatan who I made the mistake of believing in.

I doubt very much that Maharaji will ask to be forgiven especially for wrongdoings committed against past devotees who he considers the scum of the earth. I don't like Maharaji so why pretend otherwise. Sure one can detatch oneself from him and he can have no bearing in ones life but forgiveness is a personal thing and he's have to ask me personally for forgiveness for it to make any sense and for it to be real.
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Date: Sat, May 08, 1999 at 11:35:42 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Revenge is necessary
Message:
Sir Dave,

I understand what you're saying. I just don't think we'll ever see the day that M would ask for forgiveness. As far as revenge, the man is so much in his insular world I don't think anyone can get near him in a court of law for restitution. (Except for the victims of the DLM/EV pedopheliacs)

Look at all the attornies the guy has around him. I think the 'true' insiders are scared witless to come forward with what they know or have seen. Control by fear does not equate to devotion. I was only backstage once and he passed by in his white pajamas. I didn't experience fear or devotion just total amazement at how short he is. This isn't meant to be a prejudicial statement just an observation.

I think the issue of his being a charlatan from the get go has been pretty well proven by the corporate documents available to all. Now we must examine whether or not he was the perpetrator of the scams or is he simply an everyday 'toilet bowl brush' commodity that executive PAMS market and distribute for their own personal gain with a few perks thrown in for the rawat family.

Luv,
Mary
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Date: Sat, May 08, 1999 at 14:41:53 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: Moving on
Message:
Liz,

I would recommend that people be allotted whatever amount of time is required for them to work things out. Some people get over things quicker than others. Some people have invested a lot more than others and have a bigger beef as a result. It's a personal thing. Instead of pushing people to move on, it might be wiser and kinder to give them the space they need.

This isn't the first time you've come forward in this manner. It raises my amateur-psychiatrist's suspicions. Are you sure you're not just trying to duck your own anger over being had by M for all these years? Is that why you're troubled by the anger being expressed by other exes? Dr. Jerry would like to know.
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Date: Sat, May 08, 1999 at 15:24:18 (EDT)
From: Marshall
Email: (:
To: Jerry
Subject: Moving on
Message:
Liz,

I don't really like the phrase 'move on'. That's the phrase ignorant premies often use when they attempt to shame the people who are here discussing and working out issues that are important to them.
Just because people spend time on the forum doesn't mean they're not moving on(whatever that's supposed to mean) too. It would be just a little too convenient for Maharaji if everyone just moved on and forgave him, dont you think?
The concept of needing to forgive your abuser to 'move on' is not something I agree with. I don't think Maharaji merits any kind of forgiveness. I'm certainly not going to forgive him, nor would I expect any of his other victims to either.
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Date: Sat, May 08, 1999 at 15:29:17 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Liz, Mary, et al
Subject: Revenge? Forgiveness?
Message:
I agree with most of the sentiments expressed here. We each have individual ways of dealing with the reasons for our departures from DLM/EV. If revenge makes sense for Sir Dave, it's ok with me. If someone else wants to reach a place of forgiveness, then that's their right. The information that percolates here is critical to sorting out what this experience meant in our lives. I had been away from premie stuff for many years and barely gave my time in DLM a thought until my brother (another ex) came upon this site. The information I have learned has saddened me greatly. What I had come to regard as a benign spiritual pursuit appears to have deteriorated into something almost malevolent, at the top anyway.
The reports of GMJ's behavior remind me of Jim Jones. For those of you who don't know, I was a defense attorney in two trials involving Larry Layton. He was charged with conspiring to kill Congressman Leo Ryan in Guyana, right before the mass suicide in Jonestown. I learned everything there was to know about Peoples Temple and Jim Jones in the course of representing Larry Layton. The survivors of the suicide who testified at the trial all said that Jonestown really was a racially diverse, wonderful place --- until Jones came down from San Francisco. Then the place turned into a 24 hour a day nightmare. The Peoples Temple members did just fine without him around. The same seemed to be true with respect to the ashrams and communities I lived in.
The premie communities I lived in were divorced from the big doings in Denver. The communities were good places with mostly good people. The bad experiences I had I chalked up to jerky premies. I thought that GMJ was a beneficent person (the Lord of the Universe actually) who cared deeply for the premies. I often said this at satsang. It now seems that the whole trip is an ugly profit making enterprise, and that the premies are cash cows -- although I never knew any wealthy premies. It is hard to amass much net worth when you have to drop everything several times a year and go to festivals for darshan. It was the money issue that turned me away from M many years ago, and it seems that money has now become the focus of the enterprise. There's a bad seed at the center of this and it infects everything.
Arming ourselves with information, and insight, allows us all to come to a better understanding of ourselves and our time with this group.
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Date: Sat, May 08, 1999 at 17:15:55 (EDT)
From: david m
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Revenge? Forgiveness?
Message:
Hey Marianne...What an excelent post...Many people said this to me in the 70's..and I blew them off because he was my Lord and Master.Nothing mattered but that!!!..I was truly blind to what was really happening right in front of me..thanks again for such a well stated post...peace...david m
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Date: Mon, May 10, 1999 at 12:45:42 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: ***Best of Forum others, too
Message:
Best of the Forum

Also, there are other posts that are added to Best of the Forum, but I don't advertise them as ***Best***.
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Date: Sat, May 08, 1999 at 17:57:43 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Moving on
Message:
Good point Jerry,

Probably is some of that. Mainly I think I've just heard some amateur psychiatrist (ie Oprah Winfree) talking about forgiving someone, not for their benefit so much as for your own - allowing you to move on.

Although this reminds me of a premie once who really pissed me off saying 'let it go' after she said something really nasty to me so I really do see your point and yours Sir Dave.

Bye for now,

Liz
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Date: Sat, May 08, 1999 at 18:14:38 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Moving on?
Message:
I guess what I mean by moving on is all about stuck attention or free attention. I would like to have My attention free of M. That way I would feel free from him.

I still would enjoy this forum and hopefully helping other exes sort themselves out about this part of their life. (sometimes, very big part).

I have always had a problem about not being as creative as I would like. Part of me likes to blame m for this as I had quite a successful business before receiving k and giving it all up. I was being creative and I find that hard to do now. this connection with the forum for me almost seems like procrastination and practising k was one big procrastination!

So I guess I am angry about this.

Although I love you all dearly,

Liz
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Date: Sat, May 08, 1999 at 19:20:59 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: Moving on?
Message:
Hi Liz, I just posted to Diz about this down below, when I left Maharaji (More like drifted away in my case), a therapist helped me get my creative self back. She suggested I read fantasy fiction and also start doing 'throwaway' songs and poems and drawings--ie, not taking it too seriously, just enjoying it. This was to free the other side of my brain. Anyway, I know what you mean about wanting to be creative, best wishes in finding it within your self.

In terms of moving on, I want to move on, but I don't want to forgive. I think it is not necessary to forgive in order to move on. The only thing I have to forgive myself for is being maybe too young and naive to know better, but I don't need to forgive M for anything. I don't think it's necessary to love everyone who has wronged us. That's just my opinion.

Helen
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Date: Sat, May 08, 1999 at 23:32:10 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Moving on?
Message:
Thank you Helen.
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Date: Fri, May 07, 1999 at 03:44:30 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Last chapters now online
Message:
The old 'Satgurudev Shri Hans Ji Maharaj' booklet is now fully online! (Except for 2 pictures included in the original book, and still needing some 'special treatment' because of their poor quality)

Devotional Songs - Sayings of Shri Hans Ji Maharaj

Next to come: 'The Living Master', published in the late 70s.
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Date: Fri, May 07, 1999 at 09:53:43 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: I'm looking forward to that
Message:
JM,

The one is good and the other will be really interesting. Thanks again for posting all this stuff.
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Date: Fri, May 07, 1999 at 12:06:49 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The Living M: now online!
Message:
New stuff on my website, in Elan Vital's archives:

The Living Master online

That booklet was published in 1978 by DLM. Fantastic stuff.

M's (revised) theories about Knowledge finally explained for everybody!
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Date: Fri, May 07, 1999 at 15:50:54 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Last chapters now online
Message:
Thanks for all your hard work, Jean Michel. How is France?

Do you have a copy of the book, 'Who is Guru Maharaji?' That would be an interesting read. Or are some of your posts from that book?

Love,

Liz
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Date: Sat, May 08, 1999 at 04:28:55 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: Reg WIGM: service anybody?
Message:
I own a copy of the book.

The problem is that the printing quality is pretty poor, and if I scan it, I'll have a hard time editing all the pages.

If anybody can do this, I'll then host it on my website!

Queue for 'service'?
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Date: Sat, May 08, 1999 at 18:32:36 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: ME, Me ,Me,me,me,me!
Message:
Jean Michel,

I would love to do this. My old friend David Thorpe bought an old printing press with some legacy money. He then proceeded to print Who is Guru Maharaji in the U.K.

Recently I told him, 'You were the one who got me into this (he had told me about GM previous to this) in the first place,' meaning G.M. and his reply was, 'Yes, and I'll be the one to get you out of it as well!'

So this would be a nice exit.

Cheers, or whatever you say in France!

Liz
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Date: Thurs, May 06, 1999 at 19:12:55 (EDT)
From: Friend
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: bad boys
Message:
Even if boys and girls are mean and selfish sometimes, won't listen and you don't like them, they are still lovable.
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Date: Thurs, May 06, 1999 at 19:41:01 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com
To: Friend
Subject: bad boys
Message:
Who rattled YOUR cage?
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Date: Thurs, May 06, 1999 at 22:22:55 (EDT)
From: In a world of consequense
Email: None
To: Friend
Subject: b b's
Message:
Not knowing who exactly you might be referencing to,
limits the response perhaps.

But the natural consequenses that a child triggers (assumeing
a sane parental environment) are there as a learning
and a kindness.

Seems unkind sometimes, but human nature being how it is,
if consequences and the reactions of others weren't there
to guide us, we could end up like prem rawat who was
crippled by a lack of accountability in his life.
In his case, narcissism was one of the results.

In SHP's case, he would endlessly stall in an unhealthy
relationship in this forum. Not healthy for his professed
beliefs, and not healthy for the development of his
personality, and not healthy for others that are not
here to coddle a devotee.

Cat is here to hate others.
He thinks he finds joy in it.
He thinks he finds righteousness in it.
His consequences are there to be seen.
In himself, and in the responses of others.
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Date: Fri, May 07, 1999 at 00:22:09 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: In a world of consequense
Subject: Which end of the stick?
Message:
I thought the original post was about US here on the forum. That despite the fact that we were mean and selfish and didn't listen etc, we were still lovable.

It never occured to me that the post could have been refering to Rawat. But please don't let us get the wrong end of the stick. Some elaboration would help.
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Date: Fri, May 07, 1999 at 01:36:41 (EDT)
From: Friend
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Which end of the stick?
Message:
I was referring to the quarrelers here, much discussed below. Some bad boys pointing fingers at others to be the bad ones. Can't you see them? 'It wasn't me, he started it.'

Ya' can't help but love the little buggers.
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Date: Fri, May 07, 1999 at 07:51:53 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Friend
Subject: Which end of the stick?
Message:
What we need is Schoolmistress Helen to give them some discipline and send them to bed early.
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Date: Mon, May 10, 1999 at 13:07:58 (EDT)
From: Schoolmistress Helen
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Which end of the stick?
Message:
HA HA ...hey, wait a minute!!
My husband will get a kick out of that one,
Naw, I'm sick of that job, schoolmistress Helen. Somebody else can have it. How 'bout Headmaster Dave? But then again You're too peaceloving to rap anyone's knuckles. Me, I want a shot of some testosterone so I can call someone a dickhead and then go out for a beer with 'em later.
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Date: Mon, May 10, 1999 at 18:35:31 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Sir D
Subject: Which end of the stick?
Message:
I told my husband you called me Schoolmistress Helen and he said, helpfully, that there are worse names I could have been called, such as 'choking dogs' which is what sportswriter Tony Kornheiser called our local basketball team.
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Date: Mon, May 10, 1999 at 21:58:13 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Schoolmistress Helen
Subject: to all
Message:
Dear Helen,
'Me, I want a shot of some testosterone so I can call someone a dickhead and then go out for a beer with 'em later.'

Jesus god girl, you had me laughing out loud at this one! :) :)

A friend told me she read in a magazine that men only think ONE thought at a time while women think as many as 25! Now I know the 25 is true but I really wonder about the one thought at a time for men. What do you think, do they think fight or beer but can't keep both in their heads at the same time?

Men is this true?
Ladies do you have evidence of this?
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Tues, May 11, 1999 at 00:41:56 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: to all
Message:
I had forty thoughts at a time once, but I had snorted two hits of PCP. Otherwise, it's one at a time, but there are a lot of them and they come quickly.
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Date: Tues, May 11, 1999 at 07:35:37 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: to all
Message:
Dear Mickey,
I KNEW IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :) See, I think it works the opposite for women, when I took drugs my thoughts slowed to one at a time! Science, amazing isn't it! :)
Thanks.
Love ya,
Robyn
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Date: Tues, May 11, 1999 at 08:45:05 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Robyn/Mickey
Subject: Tigers and such
Message:
I think we women have more connections between the 2 hemispheres of our brains. I guess we evolved that way so that we can do dishes, chat with a roomful of people and make sure that the kids are alright simultaneously (or pick berries and make sure the kids are not being eaten by a saber-tooth tiger). But I guess it also makes us have a lot of thoughts at once???

But seriously, I love how :dickhead' can be a term of endearment for men. Women however, have permission to talk about all sorts of things with one another like breast size. We can say 'Hey your boobs look great in that sweater' Men cannot say 'Hey new jeans or bigger dick?' That joke is from Defending the Caveman, one one man show about the differences between men and women. I laughed so hard I thought I'd pee myslef.
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Date: Thurs, May 06, 1999 at 15:25:28 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Maharaji Defences -- Any more?
Message:
Here's something of a revised list of defences. I wonder, can anyone think of any others? I can't. It's funny, both Shp and the woman I've been corresponding with reacted the same way to the suggestion that they themselves weren't exactly inventing the wheel when defending Maharaji. Both were offended that their arguments could actually be considered independently of their personalities. This just indicates a really fundamental level of ignorance, there's no other way to put it. And CD's reply? That he doesn't defend Maharaji? Well, that's down in number 21:

1) Maharaji never did x. You're lying, making it up, someone's tricked you or you're just mistaken. Maybe someone else did x in Maharaji's name but he certainly had nothing to do with it.

2) Maharaji never said x. You're lying, making it up, someone's tricked you or you're just mistaken. You have no proof and even if you do those transcripts were often faulty. Or, if you heard it from someone else, maybe they were lying. You'll never know.

3) If Maharaji said x, he didn't mean 'x'. That's the trouble with you, you take things too literally. He never meant it that way, etc. etc. Words are tricky, that's all the more reason to not trust them. Get past the words,get into the feeling.

4) If Maharaji did mean x, he was young then. It wasn't his fault, he had a lot of growing to do.

5) Or, alternatively, he still means it. That is, he IS bringing peace to the world, he IS the Supreme Lord in Human form, etc. Your problem is that you just can't understand these things with your limited mind.

6) Even if Maharaji made some mistakes he doesn't owe you or anyone an explanation. Who do you think you are, anyway?

7) Maharaji's already more than explained and accounted for all of his past(and present). You're just too thick to listen, that's all.

8) Maybe Maharaji WILL answer you if you ask him nicely. Or maybe if you waited longer.

9) You just can't use your mind to understand the master. That's what makes him a master. Neat eh?

10) Oh yeah, even if Maharaji did or said x, it didn't affect me personally so what do I care?

11) Even if M did or said x, he doesn't do it anymore, that was 20 years ago and all people criticizing him are living in the past. M got rid of DLM and all the other terrible stuff that he never wanted anyway and he did it for our benefit;

12) Everyone who criticizes M has something emotionally or psychologically wrong with them, they are simply angry, vindictive people, now part of an anti-Maharaji cult, and therefore you can't believe anything they say;

13) This whole discussion is due to Jim Heller, who has a mysterious power over people, is actually now the anti-Maharaji cult leader, and without him, nobody would be complaining;

14) Mahararji has 'evolved' (even M argues THIS) and, apparently, all that 'I am God' stuff was just part of a natural evolution and all part of the (divine) plan;

15) You can't prove anything. What you are saying might not necessarily be true and therefore I don't believe it. Even if M says he is a fradulent scumbag, you can't prove he really said it.

16) Who am I to judge?

17) Reality's relative. What's true for you might not be true for me.

18) You can't consider Maharaji rationally. The more things don't seem to 'add up', the more you should realize that Maharaji was right all along when he said that the 'finite mind will never comprehend the infinite'. Maharaji's a Master and, as we all know, they've always been misunderstood. Only the heart can understand him.

19) Rationality's relative. You've got your version and I've got mine. Who's to say whose is any better?

20) You yourself were once a premie and now look how you've reversed yourself. You've obviously squandered your credibility so why should anyone take you seriously now?

21) One doesn't even have to admit that one's defending Maharaji so long as one can find another way of describing one's words.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 06, 1999 at 15:31:41 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: first revision
Message:
Sorry, on second thought, Nos. 18 and 9 are pretty well the same thing. So, here's a revised version:

1) Maharaji never did x. You're lying, making it up, someone's tricked you or you're just mistaken. Maybe someone else did x in Maharaji's name but he certainly had nothing to do with it.

2) Maharaji never said x. You're lying, making it up, someone's tricked you or you're just mistaken. You have no proof and even if you do those transcripts were often faulty. Or, if you heard it from someone else, maybe they were lying. You'll never know.

3) If Maharaji said x, he didn't mean 'x'. That's the trouble with you, you take things too literally. He never meant it that way, etc. etc. Words are tricky, that's all the more reason to not trust them. Get past the words,get into the feeling.

4) If Maharaji did mean x, he was young then. It wasn't his fault, he had a lot of growing to do.

5) Or, alternatively, he still means it. That is, he IS bringing peace to the world, he IS the Supreme Lord in Human form, etc. Your problem is that you just can't understand these things with your limited mind.

6) Even if Maharaji made some mistakes he doesn't owe you or anyone an explanation. Who do you think you are, anyway?

7) Maharaji's already more than explained and accounted for all of his past(and present). You're just too thick to listen, that's all.

8) Maybe Maharaji WILL answer you if you ask him nicely. Or maybe if you waited longer.

9) You just can't use your mind to understand the master. That's what makes him a master. Neat eh?

10) Oh yeah, even if Maharaji did or said x, it didn't affect me personally so what do I care?

11) Even if M did or said x, he doesn't do it anymore, that was 20 years ago and all people criticizing him are living in the past. M got rid of DLM and all the other terrible stuff that he never wanted anyway and he did it for our benefit;

12) Everyone who criticizes M has something emotionally or psychologically wrong with them, they are simply angry, vindictive people, now part of an anti-Maharaji cult, and therefore you can't believe anything they say;

13) This whole discussion is due to Jim Heller [or Brian, JW, etc.], who has a mysterious power over people, is actually now the anti-Maharaji cult leader, and without him, nobody would be complaining;

14) Mahararji has 'evolved' (even M argues THIS) and, apparently, all that 'I am God' stuff was just part of a natural evolution and all part of the (divine) plan;

15) You can't prove anything. What you are saying might not necessarily be true and therefore I don't believe it. Even if M says he is a fradulent scumbag, you can't prove he really said it.

16) Who am I to judge?

17) Reality's relative. What's true for you might not be true for me.

18) Rationality's relative. You've got your version and I've got mine. Who's to say whose is any better?

19) You yourself were once a premie and now look how you've reversed yourself. You've obviously squandered your credibility so why should anyone take you seriously now?

20) One doesn't even have to admit that one's defending Maharaji so long as one can find another way of describing one's words.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 06, 1999 at 15:36:58 (EDT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: first revision
Message:
Here are a couple more, perhaps variations on yours...

Lila. It's all the play of the Lord (who works in mysterious ways).

The Perfect Master is the Perfect Mirror. He reflects your state of mind...so since all you ex-premies are obviously, like, y'know, totally negative, that's how he appears to you...negative.
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Date: Thurs, May 06, 1999 at 15:45:52 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Yes, the mirror
Message:
Gregg:

Very true -- the mirror thing. I REALLY hate that one!
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Date: Thurs, May 06, 1999 at 20:15:32 (EDT)
From: Diz
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: first revision
Message:
Sounds pretty comprehensive to me.

Some of these 'defences' can be debunked in one hit. Others may be relevant, and even sustainable, for a particular point - like the ones about what happened, what was said. Though they would need to be sustained for ALL happenings, sayings etc. brought up here, for them to constitute a total defence.

It might be worth developing a 'debunk' for each omnibus defence, and storing it somewhere permanent. A scan through the archives would turn up many posts directed at debunking defences.

Diz
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Date: Thurs, May 06, 1999 at 15:43:14 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Another Defen(s)ce
Message:
21) All ex-premies never had understanding, never experienced knowledge, never followed Maharaji's directions, and therefore never gave either knowledge nor Maharaji a chance. This is true even of people who practiced knowledge for 20 years, lived in the ashram for 10 years, and followed agya to the letter. Somehow they just didn't get it, and that isn't Maharaji's fault, despite the fact that he is supposedly their 'master' and 'teacher.'
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Date: Thurs, May 06, 1999 at 16:49:12 (EDT)
From: Nobody
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Another Defen(s)ce
Message:
All pigs are = but some pigs are more = than other pigs
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Date: Thurs, May 06, 1999 at 15:49:30 (EDT)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Maharaji Defences -- Any more?
Message:
You forgot this one:

I don't care who he is, even if he's the devil himself, I would follow him straight to hell.

Well, I guess that's not really a 'defense' of Maharaji. But then, the others don't serve to defend him very well, either.

Love,
Victoria
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Date: Thurs, May 06, 1999 at 17:17:38 (EDT)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: So are you going to use the
Message:
list next time you get in a premie argument? Well, Punja Bai, you have just defended the Lard with #8, a tried and true oldy but goody.....uh, now, that is the popular #3. Could be pretty funny.
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Date: Thurs, May 06, 1999 at 19:01:34 (EDT)
From: Nobody
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Maharaji Defences -- Any more?
Message:
That's just great. Shall I get the stone tablets ready?
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Date: Thurs, May 06, 1999 at 20:22:41 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The whole list - Roger?
Message:
Okay, here's the full list. Roger, if you're still willing, I think this would make a nice permanent entry on your site. Now what might be really cool would be if we put together some really good, concise answers to these. But even on its own, I think a table of defenses, a Maharajia Apologia I guess you could call it, is useful if only to be able to show premies how exciting it is to hear their fresh, original thinking:

1) Maharaji never did x. You're lying, making it up, someone's tricked you or you're just mistaken. Maybe someone else did x in Maharaji's name but he certainly had nothing to do with it.

2) Maharaji never said x. You're lying, making it up, someone's tricked you or you're just mistaken. You have no proof and even if you do those transcripts were often faulty. Or, if you heard it from someone else, maybe they were lying. You'll never know.

3) If Maharaji said x, he didn't mean 'x'. That's the trouble with you, you take things too literally. He never meant it that way, etc. etc. Words are tricky, that's all the more reason to not trust them. Get past the words,get into the feeling.

4) If Maharaji did mean x, he was young then. It wasn't his fault, he had a lot of growing to do.

5) Or, alternatively, he still means it. That is, he IS bringing peace to the world, he IS the Supreme Lord in Human form, etc. Your problem is that you just can't understand these things with your limited mind.

6) Even if Maharaji made some mistakes he doesn't owe you or anyone an explanation. Who do you think you are, anyway?

7) Maharaji's already more than explained and accounted for all of his past(and present). You're just too thick to listen, that's all.

8) Maybe Maharaji WILL answer you if you ask him nicely. Or maybe if you waited longer.

9) You just can't use your mind to understand the master. That's what makes him a master. Neat eh?

10) Oh yeah, even if Maharaji did or said x, it didn't affect me personally so what do I care?

11) Even if M did or said x, he doesn't do it anymore, that was 20 years ago and all people criticizing him are living in the past. M got rid of DLM and all the other terrible stuff that he never wanted anyway and he did it for our benefit;

12) Everyone who criticizes M has something emotionally or psychologically wrong with them, they are simply angry, vindictive people, now part of an anti-Maharaji cult, and therefore you can't believe anything they say;

13) This whole discussion is due to Jim Heller [or Brian, JW, etc.], who has a mysterious power over people, is actually now the anti-Maharaji cult leader, and without him, nobody would be complaining;

14) Mahararji has 'evolved' (even M argues THIS) and, apparently, all that 'I am God' stuff was just part of a natural evolution and all part of the (divine) plan;

15) You can't prove anything. What you are saying might not necessarily be true and therefore I don't believe it. Even if M says he is a fradulent scumbag, you can't prove he really said it.

16) Who am I to judge?

17) Reality's relative. What's true for you might not be true for me.

18) Rationality's relative. You've got your version and I've got mine. Who's to say whose is any better?

19) You yourself were once a premie and now look how you've reversed yourself. You've obviously squandered your credibility so why should anyone take you seriously now?

20) One doesn't even have to admit that one's defending Maharaji so long as one can find another way of describing one's words.

21) Lila. It's all the play of the Lord (who works in mysterious ways).

22) The Perfect Master is the Perfect Mirror. He reflects your state of mind...so since all you ex-premies are obviously, like, y'know, totally negative, that's how he appears to you...negative.

23) All ex-premies never had understanding, never experienced knowledge, never followed Maharaji's directions, and therefore never gave either knowledge nor Maharaji a chance. This is true even of people who practiced knowledge for 20 years, lived in the ashram for 10 years, and followed agya to the letter. Somehow they just didn't get it, and that isn't Maharaji's fault, despite the fact that he is supposedly their 'master' and 'teacher.'

24) I don't care who he is, even if he's the devil himself, I would follow him straight to hell.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 06, 1999 at 20:28:33 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: sure, unless Brian wants it?
Message:
Sure, I'll put it on the House of Drek unless Brian wants it here on ex-premie.org.
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Date: Thurs, May 06, 1999 at 20:36:49 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: sure, unless Brian wants it?
Message:
Yeah, I think it'd be really great here too. But, frankly, Brian's a hard sell and you, my slutty friend, are easy.
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Date: Thurs, May 06, 1999 at 20:52:56 (EDT)
From: WAIT!
Email: None
To: drek
Subject: ONE MORE FOR YOUR CONSIDERATIO
Message:
N.

This is a fresh new actual bonified premie response to my badgering.

Ahem.. get ready.

'ITS A FREE WORLD' !!!
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Date: Thurs, May 06, 1999 at 21:07:07 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: WAIT!
Subject: Sorry, Wait
Message:
Sorry, Wait, but after long consideration of your proposal I've determined that the 'It's a free world' defense is entailed within No. 24 ('I don't care').

Got any others?
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Date: Thurs, May 06, 1999 at 21:01:24 (EDT)
From: Roger Slutty Drek
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: sure, unless Brian wants it?
Message:
Now, now gentlemen...ladies! Please! Let's remember...(OUCH!)...let's (WHO THE FUCK THREW THAT?!)..remember why this forum is (LET GO OF MY HAIR, YOU IDIOT!)...
I mean...jeesus! Can't we all just get along?


Dang, am I really a slut?

Oh well, money for nothing and chicks for free - yeah baby, that's for me!
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Date: Fri, May 07, 1999 at 02:47:58 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: Roger Slutty Drek
Subject: *Maharajia Apologia posted*
Message:
The Standard Maharajia Apologia is now posted on Roger's House of Maharaji Drek.

Feel free to use it when you get into an intractable argument with a premie. Read it to understand what to expect when you debate with Premies coming to the Forum.
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Date: Fri, May 07, 1999 at 08:38:34 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: *Maharajia Apologia posted*
Message:
You may be interested in the stuff I posted under the name of 'A Premie' on The FUCK YOU forum in answer to JHB's questions.
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Date: Fri, May 07, 1999 at 09:44:53 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: Thanks, Roger, it looks great
Message:
Yes, indeed. Can't wait to use it. I haven't felt this good since we installed a cat door and don't have to keep opening the window in the middle of the night.
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Date: Fri, May 07, 1999 at 10:48:02 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Critical addition
Message:
Roger,

Reading Nil's post this morning reminded me of what must be No. 25:

Nobody put a gun to your head.
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Date: Fri, May 07, 1999 at 11:51:27 (EDT)
From: Gorilla in a monsoon
Email: None
To: All
Subject: News Flash!
Message:
KNOWLEDGE IS NO LONGER ''ABOUT'' MEDITATION!!!

hot off the presses of the premie forum:

Sorry it has zilch to do with meditation .

You have whats left of your existance in a human body to find out what it really is !

enjoy


As per Mahatma Stevenski
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Date: Fri, May 07, 1999 at 11:54:14 (EDT)
From: Roger Gun to Head Drek
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: *Done* (nt)
Message:
xxx
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Date: Fri, May 07, 1999 at 21:39:00 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Roger Gun to Head Drek
Subject: No. 26 (thanks Nil)
Message:
Yeah, I guess these are going to keep trickling in but sooner or later I know we'll have them all. Really, there can only be so many. Anyway, this one, courtesy of Nil:

I'm following the same person today that I was following in the seventies... same Knowledge, same fulfillment.

In other words:

Nothing's changed

The way it should work, I guess, is that this excuse -- sorry, defence -- ('Nothing's changed: Maharaji's message is exactly the same as it was years ago') should properly go right before #4 which should probably read: 'Everything's changed: Maharaji's evolved too over the years')

Roger, if you can bear with us for a bit we'll nail this puppy before too long. Thanks again, Nil. And, of course, kudos to CD for perpetuating this myth in the first place.
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Date: Sat, May 08, 1999 at 03:05:10 (EDT)
From: Roger EZ Drek
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: check it out!
Message:
Maharajia Apologia
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Date: Wed, May 05, 1999 at 20:17:18 (EDT)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Two Villians
Message:
Now I now why its so hard to put your finger on Maharji. There's two of him, Prem Pal and Super Maharji.

Prem pal is an ordinary Clark Kent kinda guy. Super Maharaji is the Super guy.

Clark has no powers. Super M is all powerful, omniscient and omnipresent. Clark doesn't know what day it is. He's not ready or willing to take Perry Whites job since he's not a leader.

So whose doing Monica? She thinks its Super M. I think it's Clark.

Who runs Elan Vital? EV thinks its Super M but it isn't even Clark. They are on their own and won't last long.

Clark likes to drink and smoke and toke and do the wild thing; this causes problems for Super M.

Super M wants to lead the world to perfect knowledge. Clark wants to quit the game.

Super M and Clark are at odds with each other and don't know how to deal with Jagdeo and other screw ups so they decide to ignore the problems and hope they go away.

Clark hates the X forum; Super M could care less. This causes friction but the bennies rule the day.

The premies have seen both, therefore confusion rules the day.

The ex-premies have found their truth and honesty rules the day.
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Date: Wed, May 05, 1999 at 20:39:30 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Zac
Subject: Two Villians
Message:
Dear Zac,
I love your analogy! I was fun and really seemed not to far from the truth of how I think of M myself.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, May 06, 1999 at 01:29:39 (EDT)
From: Traveler
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Two Villians
Message:
I read some excerpts of a Ken Wilbur book on the net. He said some people are very advanced spiritually but way behind that level personally.
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Date: Thurs, May 06, 1999 at 15:30:44 (EDT)
From: Gregg
Email: binduesque@yahoo.com
To: Traveler
Subject: Ken Wilber
Message:
About the previous post: yeah, Wilber says something about...two things. One, 'magic bullet' spirituality. In other words, just keep practicing (Knowledge) and all your problems will fall away. Wilber goes on to say that ten or twenty years down the road, you see people who (of course) still have their problems, and are (naturally) embittered by what has happened to them.

And two, also related to our ex-experiences, Wilber discusses what he calls 'the pre/trans fallacy.' Humans, and humanity, go through pre-rational (mythic), rational, and trans-rational (mystic) stages. But many people confuse the oceanic/narcissistic/mob-bliss/non-differentiated/infantile feelings that we felt at festivals, for example, with genuine spirituality. This 'genuine' spirituality, on the other hand, denies no part of internal or external reality -- it includes everything...and is ultimately non-dualistic, which makes talking about it difficult.

But Wilber does talk about it, and quite eloquently. Good medicine for intellectuals who spent too many years beating down their mind. You can meditate, love, AND think and read! Whatta deal!
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