Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum III Archive # 46 | |
From: Apr 27, 1999 |
To: May 17, 1999 |
Page: 1 Of: 5 |
Date: Wed, May 12, 1999 at 08:45:41 (EDT)
From: D_Thomas Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Intentionally Shedding Premies Message: Far from holding on to 'old' premies. M seems to be taking actions that have the effect of causing the 70's premies to leave the organization, disillusioned. 1) Closing the Ashrams. This is a big one for former ashram residents who thought they would be taken care of for life (at least spiritually) by dedicating their lifes to M. 2) Flaunting his Wealth. Most american millionaires are discrete about displaying their wealth. M not only enjoys his riches but openly displays it. I suspect he enjoys seeing the disillusioning and troubling effect it has on people around him. 3) Lack of Darshan in the West. This is important because it allows a premie (rightly or wrongly) to believe that he or she has a personal connection to M. There hasn't been open darshan in the US since the early 80's. As a result many premies are feeling very disconnected from M right now. 4) Scarcity of Programs in the West. The number of programs in North America and Europe are now very few, brief and chiefly introductory in nature. This also causes premies to feel disconnected. Is he doing this out of ignorance or by design? Is he consciously or subconsciously trying to get out of the 'guru' business? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 12, 1999 at 10:21:54 (EDT)
From: Jethro Email: None To: D_Thomas Subject: Intentionally Shedding Premies Message: He's always been like this. He wants total devotion such that nothing he does is ever questioned. Don't forget he's the guy who said that Guru Maharaji could unzip the sky poke his head through could make everybody without knowldge float 6 feet above the ground so that trhey could be identified. Never mind about feeding all the people......let them starve while he shits on gold. Never mind about washing away the tears......let's create some more. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 13, 1999 at 08:09:03 (EDT)
From: Diz Email: None To: Jethro Subject: Intentionally Shedding Premies Message: Hi Jethro I reckon you hit it there. He only wants people around who are 100% with the program, whatever that happens to be at the time. Around the time I left he was actually TELLING people to leave if they weren't happy with something. That's where that WALK stuff that premies sometimes chuck around here comes from. I assume from the fact that they're still serving it up here, that MJ's still serving it up to them. Diz Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 13, 1999 at 14:43:48 (EDT)
From: D_Thomas Email: None To: Diz Subject: Theories of M Message: Alright, I can't help but come up with theories to explain my observations. Maybe in the end all these thories are wrong. But here goes: We've all been exposed to the Maharaji is God theory. But if he is all powerful, why doesn't he ______? Fill in the blank with what ever should happen. In fact, maybe this proves there is no supreme being at all. Then there is Maharaji is a complete fraud. This works for most people on this forum. It's simple and believable. But if you remember miraculously strange and unusual things, it's hard to accept complete fraud (partial fraud maybe). If Maharaji has limited telepathic or psychic abilities, there is an upper limit to the number of premies he can be 'connected' to, say 20,000 or 30,000. Any more and he cannot maintain a proper connection to each premie. Of course, aspirants and new premies require an extra amount of grace. I remember some 'miraculous' things that happened when I was an aspirant and new premie. Since then it has tapered off to virtually nothing. This aspirant grace is like a free-sample or inducement that salesmen offer. Of course, we did not know that it would eventually go away. According to this theory if M wishes to propagate, he must first 'shed' or cut-off a certain number of existing premies so he has enough grace to entice new aspirants. If you believe the official statistics, then Maharaji has initiated 10,000 new aspirants in India this year. To make room for them, then 10,000 premies in the west would have to leave Maharaji. This might explain what is happening. Of course, when M was propagating in the West, India was in pretty bad shape. So turn-around is fair-play, I guess. M doesn't have to wait for a premie to officially resign. One day the grace is no longer there for the premie. He is disconnected. It might take that premie 20 years to finally realize that he has been dumped. But dumped he has been. If this theory is true, then our time with Maharaji is limited. A few years, maybe more. When it is over we leave with the techniques and a few memories. We get our minds back and our freedom, but our consciousness is our own responsibility now. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 13, 1999 at 19:18:17 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: D_Thomas Subject: Theories of M Message: Some pretty wild speculation, you got going there, D, this limited ESP shit? What's it based on? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 14, 1999 at 13:16:38 (EDT)
From: D_Thomas Email: None To: Jim Subject: Theories of M Message: Well, there were two main incidents, and many minor ones, that made me think that he knew what I was thinking and what was going on inside my head. They all occured within about three years of my receiving knowledge. Then there were very many times when I fervently wanted to pray or communicate with M but got no answer. So, I don't know. If there is an ESP connection, it is an imperfect one. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 14, 1999 at 21:38:03 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: D_Thomas Subject: Theories of M Message: Surely, D, you're leaving room for all the usual psychological explanations for your thinking he could read your mind, aren't you? There are tons of them and none of them depend on esp. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 17, 1999 at 08:27:36 (EDT)
From: D_Thomas Email: None To: Jim Subject: Theories of M Message: Dear Jim, I have always left room in my mind for doubt. Maybe that's my problem. I always try to have an open mind. I have to be open to that which I do not want to believe as well as that which I want to believe. The end result is you are holding open 10 zillion possibilities and not the time or resources to track each one of them down. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 17, 1999 at 11:53:10 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: D_Thomas Subject: The fallacy of the 'Open Mind' Message: I have always left room in my mind for doubt. Maybe that's my problem. I always try to have an open mind. I have to be open to that which I do not want to believe as well as that which I want to believe. The end result is you are holding open 10 zillion possibilities and not the time or resources to track each one of them down. No, D, with all due respect, it doesn't really work this way. Having an open mind does not preclude attributing likelihood to various possibilities. I admit, you could be a Martian. But the likelihood, or probability, that that's so is so infinitessimally small it's almost certainly not true. Perhaps more importantly, if you were to tell me you were a Martian, there is a much greater likelihood that you're saying so for some reason other than that it's true and, to be as clear about it as possible, I should never forget the probabilities that you're deluded or simply kidding around when considering the porbability that it's true. The former outweigh the latter almost beyond comparison. New age thinking gets this all wrong. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 12, 1999 at 11:47:14 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: D_Thomas Subject: Some other hints Message: Maybe also the 'programs' don't bring him that much money anymore. And he's not intelligent enough (nor maybe even willing) to change his policy and move more towards the new-age side, like some other gurus (Rajnesh for instance) did. He's more or less checkmate: he needs to have a minimum of events to justify his guru status, and to have a minimum of slaves working for him (Amtext, residences, lawyers etc). But Hindu trips are not so trendy anymore....and premies are leaving more and more, look at the real figures (you know them for the place where you live, in spite of EV's bogus figures). Plus the information now widely available thanks to the Internet that won't allow him to wipe off his past. IRS after him these days again? That's a big problem for him! What's his choices? Retire? Without slaves? One more glass of Cognac Prempal? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 12, 1999 at 13:40:10 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Some other revenue streams Message: Interesting is the new Visions' Trinket Bazaar being used as a way to provide year round 24x7 availability of the trinkets that for the most part were only available at large programs which seem to be happenning less and less. For me those Trinket Halls was one of the last straws and a major drip in my premie trip. I'd go into the Trinket Hall and just look at all the high priced crap and see the adoring premies thinking they were in heaven when instead they were in K-Mart with a Blue Light special on Maharaji embelmed toilet paper in aisle seven. More and more the focus is on money. We're talking all the way to monthly direct deposits going straight to the Feet! What's his monthly budget, $5 million? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 12, 1999 at 14:34:32 (EDT)
From: D_Thomas Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Last Summer Message: The last time I saw Maharaji was last summer at Atlantic City. It was a PWK event, a knowledge review. I was hoping for a boost, to be uplifted, but it wasn't to be. He was talking to the effect: OK, you got your life. You have this meditation. What else do you need? Why do you come to programs to experience knowledge? Why is it any different than sitting at home? It is the chair you are sitting on? That made me do a quick double take on what he just said. Any premie would have replied that it is the presence of Maharaji that makes a difference at programs. He seemed to disavow any 'grace of guru Maharaji', that such a thing ever exists or had existed. He just teaches the meditation techniques and that's that. Actually his present philosophy is not too much different than that of the ex-premie.org i.e. about the monkey breaking the jar and getting the trinket. Just practice the meditation, have your own experiences with no connection or commitment to M whatsoever. In a way its sort of depressing and lonely. But, I always knew that in the end it was going to have to be just me and myself. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 12, 1999 at 15:03:44 (EDT)
From: Blue Bird Email: None To: D_Thomas Subject: Last Summer Message: Hi D, As Mary M would say 'The Lord of Maya' had the audacity to say the following???? He was talking to the effect: OK, you got your life. You have this meditation. What else do you need? Why do you come to programs to experience knowledge? Why is it any different than sitting at home? It is the chair you are sitting on? Let's turn it around: Ok Mr Maya, you got your life, you have your meditation, what else do you need Lord of Maya's reply: Well they've just come out with this GulfStream V corporate jet that I must have to ease my Napolean Complex symptons of inadequacy. Mr Napolean Maya: why do you come to programs to experience knowledge? I come to programs because my corporate registered agents say I must. It's the thrill of the scam too! Mr Napolean Corporate Maya Man: why is it any different than sitting at home? Is it the chair you are sitting on? No it's not the chair you lame brains. This is Jersey, I'm here for the casinos and sex. Now get outta my face or I'll have you tossed. bb Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 13, 1999 at 00:54:23 (EDT)
From: Liz Email: None To: D_Thomas Subject: Last Summer Message: What really bugged me about knowledge reviews is that M walked off stage after showing each technique like he was too hyper to practice. If practicing is soooo good why is he so hesitant to practice it? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 13, 1999 at 07:16:54 (EDT)
From: D_Thomas Email: None To: Liz Subject: Last Summer Message: You know, I've often wondered about that too. I would have preferred it, if he had staid there and at least let me believe that we were sharing the same experience of meditation. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 16, 1999 at 12:30:12 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: D_Thomas Subject: Last Summer Message: Dear D, I hope you see this before it goes inactive. I never did make it to a K review, I moved to the country just when that was starting. I lived with other premies there but we were pretty much on our own and I am thankful for that. Personally I do not think M has esp. I think it may have been the way your thoughts were set up to percieve this power he had. Of course I know that I do not know just what you are talking about here so this might sound impossible to you but I do not think he has any power. I can not believe he walked off stage while the premies practiced the new technique. What was wrong with the techniques to start with, I never had a review, I do that same techniques I learned in 1973 and they work just fine, in fact sometimes I experience light with no technique at all or sometimes I only touch my 'third eye' to get my focus there. My life ebbs and flows, good an bad, lots of amazing connections or coincedences without M. It is just part of my life and I think it happens to everyone. I hope you get stronger and happier away from M. It is a much better place to be in my opinion. Good luck D. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 17, 1999 at 09:07:28 (EDT)
From: D_Thomas Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Last Summer Message: Dear Robyn, Thanks for responding. The techniques have not changed since I was shown them in '75. The only difference is instead of 'Light, Music, Holy Name and Nectar', they are called 'one, two, three and four'. Barragins (sp?) aren't used anymore but you can sit in a comfortable chair. I can relate to what you are saying about light. Several months before I received knowledge, I had a powerful experience of light which woke me up with a fright. The love was so intense for a split second, that it completely swamped my limited capacity to absorb it. I thought I was going to die. I don't know whether this experience could be attributed to Maharaji or not. I don't like Light technique all that much. It's uncomfortable and the light you get from your eyeballs doesn't seem all that divine. I think there is an inner light that is different and much more beautiful. It shines from time to time and when you least expect it. I was on a long plane trip not too long ago and I decided to pass the time meditating on Holy Name. With my eyes closed a brightness kept on appearing. I thought someone had a window open and a light beam was shining on my face. I kept opening my eyes to see if I could find that light beam but I never saw it. I do not expect you to believe my visions. Believe only that which you experience yourself. Love, D Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 17, 1999 at 10:25:11 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: D_Thomas Subject: Light Message: Hi D - I wanted to make a few comments on what you said about light. Several people here on the forum have said that they often saw light (and heard music) as children. A few people have talked about overwhelming experiences of light BEFORE they received knowledge (I'm not talking about drug-induced experiences, either). I never personally experienced this. I did see a very beautiful and comforting white light in the Knowledge session, but I don't attribute that to Maharaji (and the mahatma was NOT pressing on my eyes at the time). This was different than anything I'd ever experienced before or since. I never saw light during the five years I practiced the actual light technique - I did see the famous 'golden doughnut', but I do think that that results from pressing on the optical nerve. Anyway, just wanted to tell you that other people here have corroborated your experiences with light, and who also have said things like I think there is an inner light that is different and much more beautiful. It shines from time to time and when you least expect it. Take care, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 17, 1999 at 18:21:18 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: D_Thomas Subject: Last Summer Message: Dear D, I believe you had that vision. When I was meditating regularly the light experience really developed from blobs of light to symentrical patterns, changing, like a chalidescope(sp). Somehow, thank god, I missed the whole message about any experience in meditation coming from M. I never thought or felt that. I thought and felt that the experience of meditation came with each person and it was just tapping into it that had to happen for it to manifest. I still feel that way. With or without M in my life/heart I experience meditation. BTW I only do light and the word now and get a lot from each. So...I would tell you that anything you experience has nothing to do with M except your idea that it does. I really do feel this is true. I have day time visions, as I call them. They have led me to believe that there is more to this life than what is on the surface, more than the road and the trees and my job, house etc. I have had them since I was a child, no connection to M though. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 12, 1999 at 16:24:23 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: D_Thomas Subject: Intentionally Shedding Premies Message: Far from holding on to 'old' premies. M seems to be taking actions that have the effect of causing the 70's premies to leave the organization, disillusioned. I know we've seen a number of people who have dropped out of the cult recently and showed up here, and many of them were long-term premies, but do you see a trend of more old-timers bailing out these days? Closing the Ashrams. This is a big one for former ashram residents who thought they would be taken care of for life (at least spiritually) by dedicating their lifes to M. I understand Maharaji didn't think too much about this. It was kind of just a casual decision for him, based mostly on the fact that the ashrams were no longer money-generators and he freaked at the possibility of costs going up as premies got older, especially because the ashramites had foresaken careers to serve the lord and mostly held ghastly low-paying jobs. Apprently, one of the 'official' reasons for closing the ashrams is that they weren't relatable to people and it was to aid in propogation that he got rid of them. But then, not much propogation has happened at least in the west in the past 15 years, so that didn't quite pan out. Even a couple of current premies I recently spoke with are very skeptical of this excuse. They think they were closed for other reasons, but don't seem to really know. After all, Mahararji never bothered to explain any of this. Scarcity of Programs in the West. The number of programs in North America and Europe are now very few, brief and chiefly introductory in nature. This also causes premies to feel disconnected. I think this is because there are virtually no aspirants in Europe and North America. I think in 1997, 77 people received knowledge in North America (according to EV stats) and in 1998 it was something like 200 people. I mean, it's pathetic. Surely, many more people split during that same period. The inflated 'knoweldge session' numbers that he boasts are mostly in India, where we know many people have multiple gurus and it's quite a different scene. I think most premies these days are embarrassed to tell people they know, people they work with, about being a premie. They just don't talk about it, and if you don't know a premie personally, there is no way you would even know Maharaji and knowledge exists because he just hides out from letting anyone know he is even alive. He is not into doing propogation in the west at all, that's very clear. Plus, premies have no idea how to even say what or who Maharaji is. Most of them still believe he's god, or something close, but they aren't allowed to say that anymore, and Maharaji's message about who or what he is is so muddled and confused, probabaly because HE is muddled and confused, that the premies don't even know what the 'official line' is on him. Yeah, there are meditation techniques, but what the hell is Maharaji doing there, and why does he live like a spoiled rich kid billionaire? And just bringing someone to a video, which is mumbingly boring, doesn't do much. With all of that, he probably figures, why do programs in the west? What's the point? As JM said, it isn't lucrative anymore. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 13, 1999 at 08:42:18 (EDT)
From: Bill Cooper Email: None To: JW Subject: Intentionally Shedding Premies Message: JW, You are so right, Last time I was coerced to go to satsang was last year in Aukland, NZ because I was staying with a premie friend. The program was robotic, there was none of the life and enthusiasm that marked the earlier years when we went out onto the streets to tell the world the Lord was here. Instead the program ran with no personal interaction, to a small group of largely middle aged ( and I suspected single ) men, for whom this was the highlight of there week before they went back to their drab bedsit existence. I couldn't help but think that M was sitting in a mansion somewhere and couldn't give a fuck about these poor bastards who had forsaken a normal life for him. THANK GOD I'M OUT. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 13, 1999 at 09:22:24 (EDT)
From: D_Thomas Email: None To: JW Subject: Intentionally Shedding Premies Message: Apprently, one of the 'official' reasons for closing the ashrams is that they weren't relatable to people and it was to aid in propogation that he got rid of them. Actually that was my same thought at the time. I would go to satsang at the ashram and the people there seemed so high. I would try to meditate myself and my own experience seemed so miserable and pathetic in comparison. It hardly seemed worth the effort. Then I would give up entirely and turn to alcohol and pot. It was in this pursuit, that I would meet some really interesting people. But, in their private moments, they would confess that they did not know why they were alive, why they were here on earth. I can still remember Jack sitting at my table, with tears welling up in his eyes, saying 'Why are we here? What is the meaning of this life? Why were we put here on this planet? What is the meaning of this life? All I can say is not one of us is going to get out alive!' To me that sounded like the 'perfect' rhetorical opening to satsang. I smelled a setup. 'Maharaji, I can't give satsang, I am not getting an experience of Knowledge anymore. Why don't you send one of those ashram premies who are having such a wonderful experience to give satsang to Jack?'. So I did not know what to say to Jack. These things would happen repeatedly to me and I would feel embarassed and confronted and not know what to say. It occurred to me that ashrams were defensive structures designed to keep the evil influences of the world out, so that the premies on the inside could have beautiful experiences all their own. By the same token the ashram premies rarely traveled to where the people who really needed to hear satsang were. Only the broken premies went there, but they in turn did not know what to say. To the ashram, I was a threat to be contained and controlled. I was definitely on some 'Bonkers Premies' list, that I didn't know about. I was excluded from doing service when Maharaji came to town. Towards the end, I had not been asked to give satsang for 18 months straight (not that I had anything blissful to say anyway). Nobody talked to me. Nobody wanted to know how I was feeling. Nobody reached out to me. So that was how the ashram was to me. Other 'fringe' premies had similar experiences. I composed a letter to Maharaji, in my head, about how the ashrams were so insular they couldn't propagate, but never sent it. I guess he picked up on it anyway. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 15, 1999 at 20:12:36 (EDT)
From: Diz Email: None To: D_Thomas Subject: Ashram insularity Message: Hi Mr? Thomas What a story! Hope I wasn't one of those ashram premies - I did try to keep in touch with real people, including community premies, but I'm sure the vibes of privilege were there too. Yes, we were insular, and getting out into the real world - so far as we actually did that - was a good thing. I hope life has greatly improved for you. Best wishes Diz Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 15, 1999 at 22:07:59 (EDT)
From: Victoria Email: None To: D_Thomas Subject: Broken Premies Message: Dear D, I had a similar experience of premies not wanting to talk to me when I wasn't blissed out, when I was 'in my mind.' I know how that feels, it feels horrible, here these people who are supposedly your 'brothers and sisters' are actually afraid of you because talking with you might rile the monster within inside of themselves. It was just a totally selfish thing that they were protecting their precious little experiences. I'm sorry that happened to you and I feel for you. Here we gave up everything, all ties to our families and old friends (the ones who didn't want to come to satsang) and then when you're feeling a little down and out, who comes around? It is a very bad feeling of isolation...totally and completely alone. And then, when you go to M in your heart and find that he is not there either. I know exactly what you mean, brother. Love, Victoria Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 17, 1999 at 09:42:02 (EDT)
From: D_Thomas Email: None To: Victoria Subject: Broken Premies Message: Dear Victoria, Thanks for your sympathy. I realize now, that at the time I was getting totally off-the-wall and completely irrational about this issue. Even long after the ashrams closed I was still carrying around all these anger and rejection feelings concerning the ashrams. But, I am beginning to learn now how the ashram premies were feeling themselves. It wasn't too far from the way that I was feeling. But again there was a code of silence, back then that kept people from expressing their true feelings. Thanks for responding. Love D. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 12, 1999 at 05:28:11 (EDT)
From: Red Email: @under the bed.com To: Everyone Subject: Dance's with wolves Message: Why didn't m like the film? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 12, 1999 at 05:34:04 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Red Subject: Dance's with wolves Message: Why don't you ask him? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 12, 1999 at 21:21:30 (EDT)
From: Red Email: @under the bed.com To: Jean-Michel Subject: Dance's with wolves Message: He'll probobly put me to sleep like he always did.I'll start snoring loudly, and premies willgive me strange looks. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 12, 1999 at 03:01:05 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Everyone Subject: M in Argentina, anybody? Message: I've received the following request by e-mail: I would appreciate if you could please inform me about Maharaji visit my country, city Mar del Plata, next june. Place of conference, days. Pleas answer to: Mrs. *** Anybody? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 12, 1999 at 09:21:24 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Info not avail for premies! Message: I've asked a few questions to that person, and here is her answer! Yes, I am a premi and I certainly know that M is coming to Argentine, Mar del Plata in june but I don´t know the right days. I am interested on E.V., please send me the e mail to get intouch. It looks like that EV has become very secretive about m's schedule, and premies themselves can't get the information! I imagine they now announce m's local conferences at video events, and if premies don't go there, they don't know about it. Talk about getting low key.... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 12, 1999 at 09:33:09 (EDT)
From: Rahab Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Info not avail for premies! Message: JM, I suggest that premies follow 'Shareholder' meetings venues to track M. Garbage is a hot commodity lately. Lots of fiber board for export to foreign countries. R Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 12, 1999 at 13:46:45 (EDT)
From: Sir Raving-David Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com To: Rahab Subject: Info not avail for premies! Message: I guess Maharaji now knows that we're gonna be there in force to shout him down at all venues in the West. Will Margarini have the courage to face that? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 13, 1999 at 12:18:40 (EDT)
From: Rhetorically Challenged Email: None To: Sir Raving-David Subject: Info not avail for premies! Message: Will Margarini have the courage to face that? No. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 12, 1999 at 00:03:58 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Everyone Subject: To Nil Message: Nil, in a thread about to go inactive I said this about meditation: I suspect that the original purveyors of the art didn't intend for it to be that [for realizing God], but instead used it as a means of enhancing awareness and getting a nice little buzz every so often. After all, that's all its really good for. To which you replied Have a good life Jerry. Think about this. Who originally discovered meditation? You don't even know, do you? Neither do I. But do you think that somewhere along the line God came to earth as man and started having people focus on their breath to see him? Or do you think some unusual individual, while focusing on his breath for the fun of it accidentally saw God one day and became the first perfect master? How did it all start, this idea of a perfect master with the gift that enables mortals to see God? Did you ever hear of 'memes'? They're thought viruses that are planted in peoples' heads who plant them in other peoples' heads who plant them in other peoples' heads, etc. Pretty soon such ideas become universally accepted as undisputed truths, not because of the rationale behind them, but because they have such an emotionally appealing whallop(sp). I think 'God' and 'Perfect Masters' are such ideas, thought viruses, 'memes'. Here's some more about it: Something to think about Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 14, 1999 at 08:36:58 (EDT)
From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Jerry Subject: Here's how it happened... Message: The first ever Perfect Master acquired his status neither through divine revelation nor memetic transmission. He worked it all out for himself. Y'see he was a neanderthal - and of the last generation to walk the planet. (Let's call him 'Og'). And neanderthals had bigger brains than homo sapiens so realising Knowledge was kids' play. So Og propagated Knowledge to fellow-neanderthals as they sat around their caves gossiping and whittling stone axes because TV hadn't been invented. And his big-brained followers found it equally easy to realise Knowledge, so - as you can imagine - the Peace Bomb exploded pretty damn rapido from the lowlands of southern Germany, all across Europe, Africa and Asia etc., until there wasn't an unrealised neanderthal left, and, lo, the mammoth lay down with the sabre-toothed tiger and all was peace and harmony around the primeval camp-fire. And it was only in old age that Og realised the error of his ways and came to regret insisting that all the caves become ashrams and their inhabitants celibate ashramites. Neanderthal Man as a species was now doomed, since all the devotees were past child-bearing age. There was at least hope for the Knowledge itself, but it involved getting homo sapiens in on the act - a lesser breed of hominid, to be sure - but it was his only hope. So Og set out and journeyed long and far seeking a divine successor amongst the tribes that heretofore he had considered inferior evolutionary rivals (though they did have lovely teeth and a natural sense of rhythm). But the hom saps didn't want to play ball. They said Og was a bighead just like all the other neanderthals, as well as a bit of a know-all 'But I do know all…' Og protested. That's the whole point of omniscience. Why else go in for it..? Trust me…' 'You don't know nothing we don't know…' the hom saps of the Indus Valley jeered. 'Bet you can't make fire, can you? Or toasted yak-cheese sandwiches? We've been doing it for ages…' 'Huh! I could make a thermo-nuclear reactor if I wanted. I am omnipotent...' rejoindered Og, a little pompously. '…And if you worship me, one of you will be my living perfect master successor thingy. It's a good deal. Caves all over the world and more wheels than you can imagine. Loads of chicks and that…' The hom saps glanced scornfully at the sorry-looking group of elderly neanderthal ladies in their perfumed tiger-skins who 'accompanied' Og on his divine mission. 'er, meet the gopis…' 'Go on then…' the hom saps continued. 'Go on, what?' 'Make a thermo-bloody whatever it was…' 'Sorry, I can't right now…' 'Why not? You just said you could…' 'It doesn't work like that. First you must have faith in me…' 'Why the fuck should we? You're bleedin bonkers, mate…' the hom saps replied, sniggering at the roughly-beaten bronze crown the Master had taken to wearing. And there it might have ended… but for one lonely hom sap who liked the sound of the gopi thing, and came and prostrated before Og. '…and you'll surrender the reins of your life? Are you quite sure about this? Losing the pension and all?…' Og eyed the humanoid specimen with suspicion and disappointment. The solitary devotee gazed up wistfully at Og's Lordly cranium. 'Yup. Why the hell not? Between you and me, the axe-whittling and - let's face it - the whole fucking stone age begins to pall after a bit…' And so the sacred truth was passed on. But to the wrong chap, unfortunately 'So when do I get to realise Knowledge, Og ji?' asked Krishna (for it was he). 'Listen, pal, I gave you this most precious gift. What more do you want? It's all there. You've just got to go realise it. Once you've realised it, you'll realise you've realised it and Bob's your auntie's hubby…' 'Well I've realised I have so much more to learn, Og ji. May I kiss your feet now?' 'What again? - if you must… You got a fetish or something? - or is it to do with the small brain?' 'I don't know, Master. You tell me… I'm just a beginner.' 'Oh sod this for a game of soldiers…' said Og, 'It was so much simpler in the early days…' As Og slumped back on his straw pillow, Krishna realised that he had yet to realise whatever it was he was supposed to be realising 'Tell me, oh Master, am I the chosen one? How should I carry your message to the world?' 'I give up…' croaked Og, 'You can paint yourself blue and take up the fucking flute for all I care…' 'Thank you Lord…' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 14, 1999 at 11:03:59 (EDT)
From: JHB Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Here's how it happened... Message: Brilliant! Especially the teeny weeny celibacy error that wiped out the Neanderthals!! John (feeling appropriately amused) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 11, 1999 at 22:15:27 (EDT)
From: Red Email: @under the bed.com To: Everyone Subject: Dance's with wolves Message: Why didn't m like this film? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 12, 1999 at 01:44:35 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Red Subject: Dance's with wolves Message: Dear Red, I don't understand your question but my answer would be because it was to good of a story! :) Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 12, 1999 at 03:49:19 (EDT)
From: Jethro Email: None To: Red Subject: Dance's with wolves Message: M has had a very limited life experience. I doubt that he would say he liked many things. he provbaably didn't even form an understanding of the film. regards jethro PS I didn't particularly like it either. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 12, 1999 at 10:29:59 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Jethro/Robyn/Red Subject: Dance's with wolves Message: Perhaps he was envious of Kevin Costner's butt, Kevin as director made sure it was in enough close-ups. (; Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 12, 1999 at 12:06:00 (EDT)
From: Mary Email: None To: Helen Subject: Dance's with wolves Message: I'd imagine any wolf in sheep's clothing such as the 'Lord of Maya' wouldn't have liked the movie. Mary Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 12, 1999 at 21:32:30 (EDT)
From: Red Email: @under the bed.com To: Mary Subject: Dance's with wolves Message: It was mentioned in the latest journeys which I enjoyed If asked him myself.I'd fall asleep and snore loudly. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 13, 1999 at 15:34:14 (EDT)
From: Usually Censored Email: None To: Jethro Subject: Dance's with wolves Message: 'M has had a very limited life experience. I doubt that he would say he liked many things. he provbaably didn't even form an understanding of the film.' Dear Jethro, How utterly perceptive of you. True, M has had an astonishingly limited life experience...very little traveling, not too many encounters with various types of people, almost no exposure to various cultures and traditions. He's probably only seen 3 or 4 movies his whole life. It would be a real stretch for that molasses-slow brain of his to follow such a complex story. Perhaps if Costner had removed the woman from the film, M might have had a chance to grasp it. I'm sure that went you went on your first trip to India at 13, you absorbed far more, even with all those people hanging on your every word in Hindi. It's a measure of your stature that you've been able to pick up on so much and keep growing, even through all the adulation. You'll 'provbaably' always stay that way. Congratulations and Tatonka, UC Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 13, 1999 at 15:53:40 (EDT)
From: Jethro Email: None To: Anth,AJW Subject: Dance's with wolves Message: Travelling from place to place, doing the same thing is limited experience. Never knowing what it is like to starve. Never knowing what it is like to be bombed. Not having an inkling of the experiences of those that you are preaching to is limited experience. You are an excellent orator, and I am often not sure if what youare saying is taking the piss or you just just cover up everything with joviality. I read in your journey you comments about Unity school not openening when a parent whose child had been abused by Jagdeo said they would not send thier child there. I presume that was in the mid-70s. So all that time since you and the other teachers knew about Jagdeo and did nothing, is that right? Help me understand this. Please don't make a joke about this. I want to understand how you(pl) lived with this and do live with this. Jethro Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 13, 1999 at 20:20:15 (EDT)
From: Liz Email: None To: Jethro Subject: Usually censored - Anth? Message: Hi Jethro, Does this mean 'usually censored' is Anth in disguise? I don't think so. Liz Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 13, 1999 at 20:31:03 (EDT)
From: Jethro Email: None To: Liz Subject: Usually censored - Anth? Message: 'Does this mean 'usually censored' is Anth in disguise? I don't think so.' Wooops you could be right.....seems i confused people. Still my comments to Anth still stand. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 13, 1999 at 20:35:25 (EDT)
From: Usually Censored is reall Email: None To: Jethro Subject: y Keith!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Message: Or Mick, that is. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 16, 1999 at 13:33:38 (EDT)
From: Victoria Email: None To: Usually Censored Subject: Movies Message: Dear UC, I guess M has seen lots of movies, that's what I've heard anyway, also I heard that M wants the premies (pwk's or whatever they are called nowadays) to avoid movies. You don't have to see movies because M will see them FOR you. I'm sure that went you went on your first trip to India at 13, you absorbed far more, even with all those people hanging on your every word in Hindi. It's a measure of your stature that you've been able to pick up on so much and keep growing, even through all the adulation. You'll 'provbaably' always stay that way. Obviously it was M who made his first trip to the west at 13, had a bunch of guileless souls hanging on his every word in English and kept growing even through all the adulation. What an accomplishment! If only he were still saying all that crap he memorized in English at the tender age of 13...he might then have a few more suckers to lay down their lives before his alleged lotus feet. I don't know who you are, if you've ever posted here before, but do you really think someone who travels the world in relative luxury for people to line up and kiss his feet and empty their pockets is an experience of growth or an expansive experience as opposed to a limited experience? I think we are talking about 'real-life' experiences here, not delusional experiences. Love, Victoria Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 11, 1999 at 20:22:35 (EDT)
From: JHB Email: None To: Everyone Subject: A Premie Who Knew All long Message: I talked with an old friend, John, an old premie, and my best man at my wedding, last night. This was the first time I've talked to a premie (apart from here, and one ex from the foruum) since becoming an ex. He always seemed to have much better meditation experiences than I did, but I always felt slightly uncomfortable with him because of his irreverent attitude to M, Mahatmas, and the whole organisation. It turns out he never believed M was anything more than a flawed meditation teacher. He never believed M was God, although he does recognise that M said he was. I asked him, 'Why didn't you tell me?'. He said he did - I guess he was right, hence my feeling of discomfort around him. He was one of the few premies in the area with a car, so he was often asked to do driving service. Once, he drove Gurucharnanand from Leeds to London. He said it was a very unenjoyable experience, and the famously enlightened Mahatma was in a bad mood throughout the journey. At the time, I distrusted his interpretation of Gurucharnand's mood, as I could not believe he wasn't always in a state of bliss. I'm not sure what I'm trying to say here, but meeting John, and talking of my feelings about M, and having that feeling of discomfort with him disappear, was very refreshing. John. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 11, 1999 at 21:05:27 (EDT)
From: L Email: None To: JHB Subject: Wedding Congratulations JHB Message: nt Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 11, 1999 at 23:15:13 (EDT)
From: L Email: None To: JHB Subject: Got It! Message: JHB thank you for correcting my misinterpretations. One of the things about posting on the internet are the mis-perceptions taken in the choice of words a person might unintentionally use, sometimes days after a post someone can come along and read the whole thing out of context. It's very common. Just consider it a rather late wedding congratulations. In and attempt to get back on track; I can also understand the release you felt when you friend disclosed his true feelings about Maharaji. I know lot's of PAM's who have doubts about Rawat which they are reluctant to express. The old commandant 'Remove All Doubt' some interpret as I should'nt have any doubts, or having doubts is a bad thing. I have a friend who has followed Maharaji since 1971, and he believed that M was The Lord, and when I'd tell him that M is not The Lord, or even A Lord, he'd get very angry with me. Now lately, Rawat has said he is not The Lord God, etc. and my friend is slow to admitt that he was wrong, but he does say that seeing M as The Lord served a purpose for him back in the 1970's. It was a relief for me to hear this little bit of omission from my friend, because I still consider him my friend, regardless of whether he follows M or not, and he still follows M, but now he thinks of Maharaji as just a master. I think for some PAM's it's just a big psychological let-down to admitt that Rawat is just a regular guy. It was probably a relief for your friend to share what he did with you as well. Regards, 'L' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 13, 1999 at 01:07:56 (EDT)
From: Liz Email: None To: L and all Subject: Got It! Message: Glen Whitaker (Elan Vital) once told my husband, who's not a premie that M was very arrogant. It really amazed me at the time but now I think about it, it doesn't take a PAM to know that. It's so delusional to think that he is humble. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 11, 1999 at 21:21:37 (EDT)
From: Mary Email: None To: JHB Subject: Congratulations JHB Message: Now get thee some sustenance to keep your strength up. Why else would you be out of bed? Luv to you and yours, Mary Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 11, 1999 at 22:35:20 (EDT)
From: JHB Email: None To: Mary, L Subject: Wedding Misunderstanding Message: I'm sorry you've misunderstood (I've re-read my post and recognise the ambiguity). I talked with my friend last night. The wedding was long ago. I only mentioned that he was best man to emphasize the fact that me and this guy were close, so the fact that he had this totally different view on M was more surprising. John. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 12, 1999 at 04:22:01 (EDT)
From: Jethro Email: None To: JHB Subject: A Premie Who Knew All long Message: And this person is still a premie? regards Jethro PS I saw gurucharanand in bad moods loads of times, particularly if he was brought water that was not 'pure' enough. He is a s devicive as m and has lived off the labours of premies as m has. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 12, 1999 at 05:27:37 (EDT)
From: JHB Email: None To: Jethro Subject: A Premie Who Knew All long Message: Jethro asked:- 'And this person is still a premie?' Someone on the forum defined a premie as someone who will not criticise M. By that definition my friend never was a premie, but he always really enjoyed meditation. I always saw him as a fringe premie, and couldn't come to terms with the fact he seemed to have these great meditations. Now I realise that meditation has nothing to do with worshipping M. Father Love makes this point very well in his journey. Regards, John. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 11, 1999 at 18:43:59 (EDT)
From: Roger $$$ Drek Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Visions online trinket bazaar Message: It ain't done yet, but soon. My sources deep within EV have told me that the www.enjoyinglife.org Chatroom was cancelled to free up resources to build the Visions Online Trinket Bazaar*** Boy, oh boy! Are we gonna have fun when they show that overpriced garbage online. The sophisticated investor will see the collector item value and load up on this stuff. Those who understand arbitrage will order the items and upon confirmation should immediately put the items up for sale on eBay since demand will quickly outstrip supply leaving Premies desperate. ***Just kidding about the sources deep within EV and cancellation of the Chatroom. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 11, 1999 at 20:01:26 (EDT)
From: cp Email: None To: Roger $$$ Drek Subject: Vidions Message: The 'just for fun' gift collection looks pretty zany. I was dissappointed- I couldnt get in to see the Appparel yet. This is looking slick and expensive. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 11, 1999 at 20:32:46 (EDT)
From: Mary Email: None To: Roger $$$ Drek Subject: Visions online trinket bazaar Message: Well, if anyone spots Nellie's watch under the Lord of Maya's Visions International Maya Trinkets please let me know. Roger why don't you set up an X/3 trinket shop? Remember those vinyl pop back clowns that you could knock around? We need one that is the Lord of Maya instead of a clown! Actually, there's really not much difference.... between the Lord of Maya and a Clown that is. Luv, Mary Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 11, 1999 at 21:14:09 (EDT)
From: Roger $$$ Drek Email: None To: Mary Subject: I like that idea! Message: I am going to open my Roger Drek Shop of Whores and Horrors. As far as Nellie's watch goes, I've heard that they will be selling it. However, it will only be a knock-off of the original because Maharaji is very fond of it and wears it when He does his drag queen bit down on Wilshire Blvd. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 11, 1999 at 22:13:56 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: Roger $$$ Drek Subject: Reviving the junk stores Message: Hey Roger. Weren't you around when the Rainbow second hand stores flourished so that we could all go to Millenium? Now that the real Millenium is here we might as well recycle DLM/EV castoffs we have lying around. Being an inveterate collector of items that document my life, I have a box of old DLM stuff circa '72 - '76. Putting those types of items into a real or fantasy online second hand store (perhaps even related to the Millenium) would be a hoot and would also educate folks who are being misled about the past. You know, there was a sign in Jonestown hanging over Jim Jones' chair, where he died, with a quote from George Santanya: 'Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it'. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 11, 1999 at 22:29:05 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek Email: None To: Marianne Subject: what do you have? Message: Marianne, Tell us what you've got, please. I think you should hang on to it as it might someday be worth a lot of money. Maybe we could get photos of the interesting stuff or scans of publications and then post that at the House of Drek! Buttons, pictures, etc. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 11, 1999 at 23:08:08 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: Roger E. Drek Subject: what do you have? Message: Roger: I have lots of publication stuff, photos of GMJ that I saved, a button from Guru Puja in London in 1973, my lowest level of all 'security' pass (pink) for Millenium, photos of GMJ's birthday party on the Queen Mary in 1974 or '75. I also have photos of me as I left to go on Soul Rush. I was staying with my oldest brother John in Boston for a couple of days before we left. There's a photo of me in knee high lace up boots and jeans, with my waist length brown hair (god, I miss it sometimes) hanging over my shoulders. Then there's a photo of me in a grey ankle length wool suit with a white cotton blouse that covered my neck. What a contrast. I'm sure everyone in the known universe would want to see these photos more than anything else I've mentioned! (Not...) I also have the books 'Soul Rush' by Sophia Collier and 'Sacred Journeys' by James Downton. Did you know that Gerry Spence's son Kent was a premie in Mill Valley, CA? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 11, 1999 at 23:15:09 (EDT)
From: g's mom Email: None To: Marianne Subject: really? Gerry Spence's son? Message: Was a premie? huh...that is an interesting bit of trivia. Was he as long winded as his Dad? Must have made for a LONG night at the satsang hall. Any pictures in your collection of the Divine Children in those years? When I was a premie I saved all those. But I destroyed all my memorabilia when I left. If you have a scanner I would love to see all these old things. Maybe you could send them to Drek? Love to hear what Gerry Spence thought about his son the premie too. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 11, 1999 at 23:31:17 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: MarianneDB@aol.com To: g's mom Subject: really? Gerry Spence's son? Message: Gerry Spence and his then wife split up when they came to California. The split is discussed in one of Spence's early books. His son, Kent, was a wonderful person. I was in law school then and his father was not yet on the national scene, at least as far as I knew. Kent was a good hearted, caring, sensitive guy. He was angry with his dad at that point. I don't want to say anymore because I think I would be invading his privacy if I did. Kent is a lawyer now and practices with his dad in Wyoming. He was almost the opposite of how Gerry appears now, probably in reaction to the situation he was experiencing at the time. I suspect he's a very good lawyer. His father is an exceptional attorney and represents poor people too. You just don't hear about it. He trains attorneys to be more effective too. He is able to communicate from the heart in the courtroom, which is a difficult task. I admire him for that. Touching jurors' hearts in a genuine way helps them to understand your case. I haven't looked in the boxes I have with old DLM stuff in years. I'm still in my big court hearing on my death penalty case for a couple of weeks. Court got cancelled this week because the judge got sick. Once it's over, I'll get the box out from under the stairs and have a look at the contents. Roger and I will communicate about it and see what can be put on line. On a more personal note, G's Mom, I love your posts. You have a way of cutting to the main issue in what you say. I'd like it if you emailed me because I'd like to discuss the errant mahatma issue with you. If you don't feel comfortable doing so, that's ok. I understand. Keep up the good posts. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 12, 1999 at 00:36:22 (EDT)
From: g's mom Email: None To: Marianne Subject: email Message: Dear Marianne, I sent you an email. I am happy to correspond by email. g's mom Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 12, 1999 at 00:01:55 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Sacred Journeys Message: Marianne, Can I borrow Sacred Journeys? I ordered it from Amazon (twice) but it's out of print and they haven't been able to find a copy for me. Thanks. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 12, 1999 at 12:09:37 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: jmkahn@club-internet.fr To: Marianne Subject: Marianne, Marianne!! Message: Hi Marianne, I'd be very interested by a copy of these documents to have them online on my website. I already have quite some interesting stuff in my bibliography page, the more the better. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 12, 1999 at 14:25:53 (EDT)
From: Mary Email: None To: Marianne Subject: what do you have? Message: Hey Marianne, You know I'm just drooling for a 'Soul Rush' vintage jar of applebutter! Love, mare Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 11, 1999 at 23:59:15 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Reviving the junk stores Message: Marianne, do you have any of those Millennium Candy Bars, the ones that tasted like sawdust compressed into little bars? I think they have a self-life of at least a millennium. But don't throw away or sell your old DLM stuff. I got rid of all of my many years ago, but sometimes I wish I still had some around just to remind me of how weird it really was. Plus, at one point Maharaji wanted the premies to destroy all that old stuff and so a lot of it did get destroyed. We need to preseve what remains! Hey, if you talk to Don, tell him I'm in his old office, the one where he used to have that big, beautiful, idyllic oil painting of the pastoral scene (yeah, right), on the wall. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 12, 1999 at 01:47:17 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: JW Subject: Reviving the junk stores Message: Joe: No fucking candy bars in my box! I did save the stuff to remind myself what it was all about. I won't throw it away. You can borrow my copy of Sacred Journeys. I have spoken to Don a couple of times, and the next, I'll mention that we had a wild heterosexual fling on the top of the Transamerica Pyramid. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 12, 1999 at 13:18:07 (EDT)
From: Denise Email: None To: Roger $$$ Drek Subject: I'd Love to Have A Millenium Message: t-shirt on which to wear my 'Lord of the Universe' button I now proudly own (off ebay, thanks Rog, for the tip!). If you ever see one on eBay, let me know. I should probably email the guy I got the button from, he seems to run a flea market online. My older son wants his little brother (who's 5 and very cute!) to wear the button to his Baptist private school. I think that would be a big hit with his teach and the whole staff! I may put it on him the last day of school, because he'll be going to a different school next year anyway. They already know we're not Christian, but this would blow them away. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 12, 1999 at 21:46:40 (EDT)
From: Nim Email: None To: Denise Subject: I'd Love to Have A Millenium Message: My older son wants his little brother (who's 5 and very cute!) to wear the button to his Baptist private school. I think that would be a big hit with his teach and the whole staff! I may put it on him the last day of school, because he'll be going to a different school next year anyway. They already know we're not Christian, but this would blow them away Denise, please give your five year old a break. Don't punish him by making him wear Guru Maharaji buttons to school. Just think of the psychological effect that might have in his later years. Notice your older son wouldn't be caught dead wearing a Guru Maharaji button. He wants the little dude to do it. Ya cute, very cute! Denise, I was once a five year old boy myself, and I don't like this!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 11, 1999 at 13:08:21 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Everyone Subject: New Journeys entry Message: I put Father Love's entry online today. Thanks, FL. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 11, 1999 at 14:14:12 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Brian Subject: New Journeys entry Message: Whoa, it's long, I couldn't read the whole thing but what I had the chance to read was hilarious and very very well written. Good to see the little creep didn't stop you from your search, FL. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 11, 1999 at 20:51:27 (EDT)
From: Anon Email: None To: Father Love Subject: Father Love's Journey Message: Well I never... I just read the whole thing and found it very gripping. It brought back many memories of Premie life in London in the 70's. That period seems like it could have been another lifetime now. They are not my favorite memories I must say. I am soo much happier now I live life as I feel, not as I was told I should. Wasn't 'should' the most common word in Satsang in those days? It certainly seemed like it... 'So, we should sing Arti ...' 'So...we should do service' etc. I still check in here from time to time and like best to read new 'journeys' such as these. Especially when I can relate to them as much as I did to Father Love's. Reading between the lines, I feel that the journey's entries represent a powerful 'therapy' session for their authors. It would be good to see more honest, un-expurgated 'expressions' such as these. Re-reading my own entry makes me realise how little urge I have now to unburden myself of such feelings as I had when I wrote it. I really must have successfully moved on. I see this as a distinctly good result. Of course, it may be quite theraputic still to pen a sequel! I think that consciously distancing myself from Maharaji and Knowledge for some time has been essential. I could not have carried on as I was. I feel much more mature now, in a funny sort of way, for having got my doubts out of my system. I don't write here much now (I am clearly not too affected by this ex-premie cultism that is occasionally claimed) although I value the discussions I have had here in the past, as having been most cathartic. I gather the forum has achieved a solid reputation now as being a hot house of flaming etc. (I am told this by friends). I guess that's the price of freedom of speech..It has to better than a party line. I've tried to get into reading the premie sites but find them a bit boring. Maharaji's site is obviously interesting to me, especially that in it he endorses his belief in a certain lineage which he describes on one page. This is one side of the whole thing that, putting it frankly, I find desperately unlikely to be true. (my gradual understanding of the Indian Guru system in general has left me somewhat sceptical of the likelihood that M's lineage is particularly different than the many others) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 11, 1999 at 20:43:42 (EDT)
From: JHB Email: None To: Brian Subject: New Journeys entry Message: This is quite a very well written, long, story. I remember the 1993 Brighton event. I felt I was being very brave missing the first day because I was celebrating my father's 75th birthday (and my 40th) in Leeds. If FL is reading this, I'd be interested in more detail about the work you're doing now. John. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 11, 1999 at 22:00:18 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: JHB Subject: New Journeys entry Message: This entry is extremely well written. What got me the most was the writer's description of standing up, turning his back on M, and walking out. That took tremendous courage. I have a question though. I left DLM in '76. At that time, at festivals or events, there generally were a couple of roped off rows at the front for elite premies. My recollection is that it was folks from the national organization in Denver, mahatmas, etc. I noticed this distinction but justified it in my own mind (ha!) that these were ashram premies who were involved in the organization 24 hours a day and this was the only 'perk' they got. Was my justification correct? From the new Journeys entry, and from other comments on the forum, it seems that there is a group of 'Superpremies' who are 'above' the rest. Is that correct? How did it occur and how is it manifested within the group? Who are the superpremies? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 12, 1999 at 00:02:51 (EDT)
From: KK Email: None To: Marianne Subject: New Journeys entry Message: Marianne Having been in that category and sat in those rows for a few years a long time ago, I can confirm that one's peers are initiators, wealthy philanthropical premies, non-premie guests of importance such as Marolyn's relatives or a business connection (whom MJ wants to impress), his personal staff, national coordinators, residence staff, security, organisation hanchos such as world finance/management premies, the children's teachers/nannies etc. These people sometimes go for dinner with MJ after programs or are staying in the same hotel and have a direct line to him and his immediate staff. As I said once before on the Forum, the group is akin to a travelling rock performer's entourage. Nothing more or less sinister. P S As everybody knows, I am a dedicated, chronic and longterm ex-premie. Regrettably I couldn't make much sense of the New Journeys Entry. I respect the process for the writer but at the time of my cult involvement, tow things were definite: (1) whilst some people were utterly unbearable, to be truthful, I was too, I'm sure; (2) let's not get too clever after the fact - we were rarely as enlightened then as we now claim we were. I guess in summary, i don't want to trivialise or devalue what I sincerely did alongside others, simply because we were all sucked in. I made a mistake, that's all. Not everyone in the ashram was mentally defective. I have good memories of hardworking and sincere people in and out of the ashram who believed the same propoganda as myself. I remember being air sick on my way home from Kissimmee to Sydney in '79 and consistently vomiting from Papeete to Auckland. The ashram brother beside me nursed me like I was dying. There were many human responses which characterised our lives. People fell in love, for example, DESPITE how uncool and forbidden it was. There was some grass through the concrete. Yes, I'm totally opposed to everything MJ represents in terms of greed, avarice, dishonesty, deception etc and like you, I defend the underdogs, but I'm not prepared to make my reflections so entirely cynical as to be patronising. A little leadership doesn't go astray, does it? Cheers Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 12, 1999 at 00:11:55 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: KK Subject: New Journeys entry Message: Thank you KK, I had much the same reaction but was tempted not to say anything. It was a great story and well written, but I am really skeptical of saying things like 'this is what ALL premies were like' and 'we were ALL terribly messed up before becoming a premie.' I think all kinds of people became premies from all kinds of backgrounds, and yes, we did allow ourselves to be duped, but there were lots of very sincere people who Maharaji ripped off by his deception. I'm really glad Father John figured out Maharaji is a fraud, and that he enjoys meditation and is having a good time, but is he really that cynical? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 12, 1999 at 00:28:27 (EDT)
From: g's mom Email: None To: KK Subject: nice post KK Message: I too have memories of people (premies) being incredibly kind to me. I always think when I post a generalization about how callous the cult made us, me as much as anyone, that my post will be read by someone who helped me in a time of need and seen as ingratitude. Well, if you are reading this Guru I am ungrateful to you, but some of the premies had hearts of gold despite the programming. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 12, 1999 at 01:52:30 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: KK Subject: New Journeys entry Message: 'A little leadership does go astray......' Perfectly stated, KK. Thanks for the response. I was so willingly ignorant. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 12, 1999 at 03:25:12 (EDT)
From: AJW Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Front Seats. Message: There was Maharaji's personal staff at the front, then instructors, and more recently, I beleive, by making large, regular donations as part of some 'support or sponsorship scheme, you could 'buy a seat' up front. Anth. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 13, 1999 at 01:43:20 (EDT)
From: Liz Email: None To: Marianne Subject: New Journeys entry Message: The roped off area has become a lot bigger these days. A whole section in the front of the hall. It is filled (and sometimes not filled) with PAMS who work for M, friends and relatives of M, rich people, and people who give M large sums of money. This space is certainly not reserved for premies who have held on for dear life from a great distance for many years. I spent some legacy money one year to attend the Anniversary event in Rome. I sat in the bleachers at the back looking enviously at some empty seats in the front. I would have been cast out as a bongo if I had ventured up to the front. I have a friend who did front-row ushering and made sure only people with special passes got those front seats. Talk about the chosen few (elite). These people must feel that they belong to some 'chosen' hierachy and this has a lot to do with their blissed out feelings I expect. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 12, 1999 at 06:19:06 (EDT)
From: Jethro Email: None To: JHB Subject: New Journeys entry Message: Hi JHB, I just read FL's entry and know him quite well, although I haven't seen him since he ex-ed himself. I heard from a premie that FL had set himself up as a guru Regrads jethro FL if you're reading this you'll see that I have aslo changed my name. To give you a clue I was your commander during the six-day war. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 12, 1999 at 06:23:28 (EDT)
From: Jethro Email: None To: Jethro Subject: FL & JHB Message: Hi JHB, I just read FL's entry and know him quite well, although I haven't seen him since he ex-ed himself. I heard from a premie that FL had set himself up as a guru. Regrads jethro FL if you're reading this you'll see that I have aslo changed my name. To give you a clue I was your commander during the six-day war. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 12, 1999 at 16:15:52 (EDT)
From: AJW Email: None To: Brian Subject: New Journeys entry Message: Ha! Father Love and I go back a long way. We used to swap Sven Hassell novels (SS Panzer Battalion. etc) in the 70s. I was most envious because Father Love had a pint with Hassell, the old SS officer, himself once. If he ever gets himself a PC and gets on the net, I'm sure he'll be a lively presence. Feldwebel Antz SS Airborne Battalion, South London Legion. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 13, 1999 at 07:56:12 (EDT)
From: Diz Email: None To: FL, Brian Subject: New Journeys entry Message: Thanks Brian and FL I really enjoyed that read. It sure brought home the wonder and weirdness of the early premie years. And the hippy days. How come I never got to spend a week in bed with the vicar? What was he doing, anyhow, when you and his better half were so occupied? I particularly liked the juxtaposition of thorough-going exe-ness, with huge appreciation for 'the inner experience'. Roll on, anything that can separate Mj from the energy inside ('scuse the stupid terms). I lay in bed this morning and cuddled up to 'that feeling' without immediately going through the 'oh, this belongs to MJ' bit. By the way, Jerry I've appreciated your recent posts on this subject too. I also think there's something to be taken from the rap about exes taking responsibility. I know this is an old subject. I do not in any way mean that Mj doesn't have responsibility - of course he does. But I need to grow up, and know I've got some pretty weak spots after 20 years of cult life, not to mention x years of mind-altering substances prior to that. It's funny, the more 'ex' I feel, the more I can consider what my part in the whole thing was. Well, sometimes. Not sure what to make of your current teacher status, FL. Bit dicey, that route, I suspect. How do you keep from making the old mistakes inherent in the guru role? You could, of course, expose your activities to ex-premie scrutiny. That'd keep you on the straight and narrow. Diz Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 11, 1999 at 12:19:08 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Everyone Subject: More chapters online today! Message: New chapters from 'The Living Master' now online: Guru Maharaj Ji - Satsang, Service & Meditation A few excerpts: The Perfect Master comes and removes all the darkness, and brings the supreme Light into the world. If you find him, you will get it; if you don't find him, you won't get it. What is God? You don't know what God is. God cannot be a human being. God is Light; God is power. God cannot talk. Electricity cannot give light. Only the bulb gives light, but electricity has to be put through the wires for the bulb to give light. It's power. Guru Maharaj Ji, are you permanently in God-consciousness? Yes. I am permanently in God-consciousness. I'm going to supervise you, and stop you wherever you play wrong. That is all. I'm going to give you this Knowledge; I'm going to make you perfect in this game. And it won't be a qualifying game anymore; it will be the final game. Now people are about to play a real game, and this is the final game. So I'm going to make you perfect for that. when we go and surrender, when we go and dedicate ourselves to Guru Maharaj Ji, that is when something happens, something clicks. I don't think anybody can define what really happens and what really takes place, but something happens, something so beautiful, and that puts us in the place where we wanted to be all our lives. How many Perfect Masters do you want to wait out? How many scriptures are you going to read? What are you going to do before you can enter it in your head that that is the purpose of this life, and that this is what we have to do? It's been said that Guru Maharaj Ji comes, or God comes into the world, when there is a decline in religion. God comes, Guru Maharaj Ji comes, and helps the world. About satsang: You know, there are two parts. There's receiving, and there is giving. And the giver has to have experience of that Knowledge, to talk about it. And the receiver has to be open to be able to listen to it. Because if you are completely full of other stuff, then what are you going to grab? How is it going to filter within inside of you? Because it's really hard; what we are trying to do here is to communicate! It is to transfer an experience from one person to all the people who are listening. Now that's what has to manifest: a transfer of experience. What I have experienced, what I know, and what I am talking about - I want you to experience that. Not loud enough yet, Prempal! I wish, I really wish, that we could all come together and beat the great drums of this satsang, so that all brothers and sisters in this world could hear the voice of these drums beating. And then they would dance to it, just like you and I have. Every one of them. Every soul in the universe would dance to it. And it would be a beautiful experience. That is my wish. That is my greatest desire. It's even beyond desire; that is my life. Every Perfect Master has come into the world and tried to beat those drums. They got somewhere close to it, but they didn't quite beat them loud enough, not loud enough for everybody to hear. And it didn't pierce the tons and tons and miles and miles of barriers that people have between them. But for some reason, I have this hope. I have this dream. I have this... It's not an idea, it is not an idealism, but as a service, as the aim of my life: to beat these drums so hard, so hard, that it might break down those barriers that people have placed between them, and that there might be Peace in the world. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 11, 1999 at 13:04:17 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: thanks! Message: Jean-Michel, We are so fortunate that your path of deprogramming yourself includes presenting this historical background. Without it Knowledge-Lite might suck in more and more people into the blackhole of Maharaji's cult. If they have access to the Internet at least they can see what it's really about. Knowledge-Lite is a sham, a thin veneer that hides the hardcore Lord of the Universe Maharaji-the-Second-Coming-of-Christ beliefs that are still prevalent today. Stick around Knowledge-Lite long enough and that sick reality becomes apparent. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 12, 1999 at 11:09:42 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Roger E. Drek Subject: Not for exes only! Message: I guess you have NO idea how many people benefit from all this information. I've been in touch with some of them, and it varies from premies' or aspirants' relatives worrying or wondering about what their friends/relatives are involved in, to therapists/professionals needing information, to people or relatives involved in OTHER cults and very surprised to discover m's business! At least some other people are benefitting from what we've 'learned'!!! and some of our 'ex-friends will end up benefitting this too.... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 12, 1999 at 15:41:50 (EDT)
From: Roger $$$ Drek Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Not for exes only! Message: If you could only get rid of the GeoCities or whatever popups and instead advertise your dog tatoo and piercing business ;) Seriously, that is great! You should be very proud of your important work if pride is now something that we can openly embrace. This grassroots Internet is an amazing example of empowerment. Seems the way things are shaking out is that your site is definitely the Historical Research Reference site and all books, documents, research articles, etc. should go there. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 10, 1999 at 22:53:40 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Here's one to ignore Message: For a really good time check out the latest hubub on CD's 'say something nice about Maharaji' forum: http://www.paradise-web.com/plus_le/plus.mirage?who=premieforum I always knew that, as much 'fun' as it might be from time to time arguing with cult apologists, the choicer cut is watching them duke it out between themselves. Yes, yes, I know, we do that too. But there's a big difference. We're not pretending to have a Master who has and does and will continue to lead us into peace and love and gratitude and UNDERSTANDING. So, last time I looked, they're challenging each other on whether or not it's 'okay' to talk about knowledge. Steven posted a love letter to Maharaji and some other jerk told him he shouldn't do so publically. Then they get into this whole thing about ... well, go see for yourself. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 11, 1999 at 08:09:50 (EDT)
From: Nim Email: None To: Jim Subject: Here's one to ignore Message: Just so I know, you're being sarcastic right? I mean, why point out CD's site if its to be ignored? Or is there really something else you're suggesting be ignored? Sorry, I don't get it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 11, 1999 at 08:46:17 (EDT)
From: Catweasel Email: Hypocrisy To: Jim Subject: Someone we should ignore! Message: So whats it to you Jim, you think your contributions here are any prettier???Your a savage!As subtle as a clay brick,as sensitive as a runaway train.You dont like me being here whats your counter logic on being over there? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 11, 1999 at 23:43:37 (EDT)
From: Steven Email: None To: Catweasel Subject: What are you doing ? Message: Catweasel, Why are you over here bugging these people ? You are making things worse . Alot of people here have been through a lot in their lives ! Why do you not let them work it out ? Its very easy to argue over the net isn't it ? Its very impersonal is it not? Jim has every right to vent . So what . This is his medium to vent . Would you rather him kill himself ? This is these folks way of getting rid of the crap . So Catweasel as one premie to another live and let live! Steven Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 12, 1999 at 07:26:01 (EDT)
From: Catweasel Email: And you cant have mine Jim To: Steven Subject: Oh my God ,Steve!!!! Message: No Email ,no believe Steve Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 10, 1999 at 21:42:45 (EDT)
From: Nim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: To Big Boy Nil- Amtext Message: As for Amtext... I don't have a clue what it's about so how could I answer your stupid questions? O yes you DO have a clue Nil. Just be patient ...you'll prove it in your next breath Besides, what the fuck business of yours is it how a private company is set up? Or, if a person chooses to support something set up to benefit Maharaji? There are lots of companies set up for beneficiaries other than the people working on the day-to-day operations YOU SEE, I told you you knew what Amtext is about. There, you've just identified the key issues! Thank you Nil!! ... what of it? Well,while you have correctly identified the issues ,you've also resorted to your usual playing with words, much as your master does. Now I would like to discuss this on a factual and legal basis as I did earlier today with a couple of business law teachers at one university where I was buying books(among other things of course:) To begin with I have reported on these pages on several occasions the statement by Chuck Nathan, Amtext president to approximately 125 premie book buyers, just before he introduced m to us at the Amtext party at the residence three years ago( may 11,96).He said as follows. 'some of you have been asking the question regarding who really owns Amtext. I want to make it clear to you that Maharaji is the sole beneficial owner of Amtext.' He was lying of course. We have information from a Dunn and Bradstreet -like reporting company that tells us that the shares of Amtext are owned 100% by the directors-officers of the company and we also know who these people are...premies of course...BUT NOT m himself. Without the legal ownership of the shares that would qualify one to be a beneficial owner of an incorporated company, M IS NOT IN FACT AND IN LAW...the beneficial owner of Amtext. He can't be. But quite obviously this company does exist for his benefit, and m somehow does get to do what he wants with Amtext's after tax profit. And we can only speculate, but with the recent information as to who owns the shares, it seems even more likely now than before, that the money comes to him in the form of a tax-free 'gift'...as an expression of appreciation and gratitude to the 'teacher and master' of those who in fact and in law DO own the company...the premie directors/officers of the company. Now its America, and all this would be perfectly kosher except for one thing. If M is involved in executive level decisions with Chuck Nathan re; the company's relationship with premie book buyers who play such a key role in Amtext's success,and in setting the company's future direction... If M has contributed actively to this company's development in the form of a $1,500,000 loan as was related to me by Barbara Brogan when she was trying to help me feel 'priveleged' to be associated with Amtext, a company so important to m that he would lend it that kind of money... If m regularly hosts parties for Amtext and its premie buyers to provide them with the inspiration and motivation to continue driving the company forward...well then,it seems that m's involvement in the company is such that certain interested parties might consider his tax free gift IN FACT AND IN LAW a tax dodge for money that should have been received as remuneration for services performed...and NOT as a tax free gift. Nil...I was lied to 3 years ago at the residence. Of course three years later I'm now listening to your bullshit which I quoted on the top of this post. I'm being lied to again. I've heard what you have finally had to say on this subject after shamefully ducking and running away on at least three occasions...and you have NOTHING to say Nil. Its garbage. You're the number one spokesman for the man who shits on gold toilets, but you're really just another chickenshit representative of m's chickenshit world Good night Big Boy! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 11, 1999 at 04:01:44 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Nim Subject: Why bother? Message: Mr Nil is no spokesman for his Master obviously. The real one is Ms Ros Sutton, and I guess she's pretty much embarrassed with all this stuff. I guess she's already succeeded adding a new sub-folder in the Yahoo! categories to separate the vilains from the Master's websites, which is adding really more ridicule to her guru. Mr Rawat is the only guru having his ex-followers indexed in the Yahoo! search engine having their own sub-folder. The number of people visiting my site and coming from the Yahoo! link have increased by 100% at least! You merely type - elan vital - in the Yahoo! search window, and you get there. No Elan Vital computers, Elan Vital perfumes, Elan Vital this and that anymore. They might be pissed off!!!! M's PR are actually doing the best possible job. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 11, 1999 at 08:01:16 (EDT)
From: Nim Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Why bother? Message: You're quite right...Why Bother? Its not like these guys are actually going to deal with this issue,other than to avoid it. I just wanted Nil to know what I thought of his 'big boy' amtext statement. BTW, Jean-Michel, can you tell us who Ros Sutton is? You've got me curious. Thanks, Nim Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 11, 1999 at 08:27:24 (EDT)
From: Happy Email: None To: Nim Subject: Amtext Message: Just want to take the opportunity to thank you for all your information on Amtext. It has been most revealing. Loved your post further up. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 11, 1999 at 23:13:11 (EDT)
From: Nim Email: None To: Happy Subject: Thank you Happy(nt) Message: NT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 11, 1999 at 09:12:23 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Nim Subject: Ros Sutton Message: She was (still is?) EV's/Rawat's chief PR. I remember lots of info about her were outed here a few months back. I've been a part with a few meetings with her, and members of her staff. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 11, 1999 at 11:25:38 (EDT)
From: Liz Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Ros Sutton Message: I remember Ros Sutton from the early days. What info did you have a few months ago? When I saw her fairly recently she was very serious and didn't look very happy at all. Regards, Liz Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 11, 1999 at 14:30:10 (EDT)
From: Stevei Email: None To: Liz Subject: Ros Sutton Message: Ros Sutton was the sister of John Sutton, both from Cambridge UK . They belonged to an academic family, and Ross is an old timer....I am really surprised to hear that she is still involved...john was a really nice guy.....say hi to john if you read this Ros Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 12, 1999 at 03:32:18 (EDT)
From: AJW Email: None To: Liz & Stevei Subject: Ros Sutton Message: Hi Liz, Ros is an old friend of mine. I had a meal with her last week. She's fine. (Stevei, her brother's fine too, and has a couple of children nowadays). Anth. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 12, 1999 at 05:25:20 (EDT)
From: Stevei Email: None To: AJW Subject: Ros Sutton Message: Say hello to John...maybe he could email me...I was the Cambridge Ashram Sec way back in 73-74...Ros was not into M then...more on the sidelines...she was I believe into sales or marketing or something like that Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 12, 1999 at 11:43:18 (EDT)
From: g's mom Email: None To: AJW Subject: so what's it like.... Message: Anth L'Chameleon, When you go to lunch with a premie do you discuss this board? I am curious. It has been about 11 years since I have seen a real live premie ( at least that I knew ). Do you describe why you left? Do they describe why they stay? Is the subject taboo? G's mom L' imitatator ( I'll leave it to you...love your sign off's though) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 12, 1999 at 14:59:02 (EDT)
From: AJW Email: None To: g's mom Subject: so what's it like.... Message: Hi g's mom, many of my close friends are old time premies. I've told all of them, quite clearly, how I feel, and have been doing for years. Their reactions are very interesting. They range from a threat to terminate the friendship if I do anything to impede 'Maharaji's work', to what seems like degrees of support and encouragement. After my initial declarations of heresy, and long, intense discussions with one or two friends, the subject has dropped from the agenda. I think we tend to wait for the other party to bring it up first. Sometimes premies forget that I'm no longer a premie, and talk to me like I am. I usually say something sarky and they get the message. I'm lucky really, most of my close premie friends are still close premie friends. I value their friendship immensely, and don't want to upset them. They accept me as I am and I accept them as they are. Anton le collaborator. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 12, 1999 at 16:47:52 (EDT)
From: Jethro Email: None To: AJW Subject: Anth don't kid yourself Message: 'I'm lucky really, most of my close premie friends are still close premie friends. I value their friendship immensely, and don't want to upset them. They accept me as I am and I accept them as they are. ' Sorry mate you are kidding yourself. I heard from a that you were in a state of a 'big whine'. You are temporarily in your mind...that's what they think. This person, who didn't know I was an ex, at the beginning of the conversation totally changed when I said I had left Maharaji some time ago. He just pretended that he hadn't said that about you. Anyway I'm sure you'll get it eventually. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 13, 1999 at 13:50:19 (EDT)
From: Usually Censored Email: None To: Jethro Subject: Anth don't kid yourself Message: Yes, watch out! The insidious virus of your premie friends' love can strike you at any time and wend its way into your system, as if it were real, thereby causing possible damage to your still-young doubt infrastructure. Watch out!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 13, 1999 at 14:19:27 (EDT)
From: Jethro Email: None To: Usually Censored Subject: Anth don't kid yourself Message: I suppose what I posted was a bit useless. I'll leave you in your comfort on that subject. Jethro PS:Are you in contact with 'Father Love'? I gathered from something you wrote that he is not online. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 13, 1999 at 02:16:56 (EDT)
From: Liz Email: None To: AJW Subject: Ros Sutton Message: Hi Anth, I'm sorry if you feel I'm 'dissing' all your friends. I actually like all these people, Glen, Peter, Peter Potter, Ros, Sandy etc. I just can't seem to come to terms with all these nice people still working for M if they know all this supposedly 'bad' stuff. Also these people definately aren't stupid. How do you come to terms with this. Do you see your friends as really nice, intelligent people who have been brainwashed or in it so long it's too late to leave or people who are getting so much out of it there is no reason to leave? I suppose what I'm saying is I'm still not totally convinced about all this bad P.R. Surely if Ros is the head of P.R. she would know if there was anything suspect going on? Sometimes I have that 'missed the boat' feeling even though I did practice a lot. Glen did tell my husband once that M was arrogant. He must have obviously forgiven him for this. Jumping ship has it's good days and bad days...... Kind Regards, Liz Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 13, 1999 at 15:16:15 (EDT)
From: Usually Censored Email: None To: Liz Subject: Ros Sutton Message: 'I just can't seem to come to terms with all these nice people still working for M if they know all this supposedly 'bad' stuff. Also these people definitely aren't stupid. How do you come to terms with this. Do you see your friends as really nice, intelligent people who have been brainwashed or in it so long it's too late to leave or people who are getting so much out of it there is no reason to leave? I suppose what I'm saying is I'm still not totally convinced about all this bad P.R.' Hi Liz, your honesty is refreshing. Perhaps because they know that some of the 'bad' stuff is untrue or exaggerated, some is irrelevant and that the remaining 'bad' stuff, in context, is far outweighed by the power, magnificence and tastiness of something they find quite beautiful and lasting. Of course, there's also the possibility, heavily promoted here, that ALL of these people are drooling, mindless, brainwashed, stupid, amoral, thieving, follow-the-leader for 20-30 years, child-abusing, family-hating, insipid-music loving, hummingbird-hypnotized-by, waterfall-watching wankers marching in step behind a clueless guru with no power, no perception, no vibe, no intelligence, no experience of what he teaches and an insatiable lust for golden toilets, financed by an evil text-book company and suede jackets with subtle swan logos. If you look continually under every rock, you'll find a few worms. As you get older, you discover that this is true everywhere in life...every company, every hot relationship, every football team, every supermodel, every Tuesday night poker game, every rock 'n' roll band. You decide whether or not it's worth it to continue in each case based on how it feels. Try applying the under-rock analogy to any relationship or business in your life. If you examined your boyfriend or wife (or mother or business partner) through a constant prism (or fun-house mirror) of doubt, how well would they do? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 13, 1999 at 17:03:51 (EDT)
From: gerry Email: None To: Usually Censored Subject: Ros Sutton Message: If you examined your boyfriend or wife (or mother or business partner) through a constant prism (or fun-house mirror) of doubt, how well would they do? Our wives, business partners, etc. don't claim to be the Lord of the Universe and have the sacred, secret knowledge of all life. This guru stuff is a scam for money and yes, the followers are hypnotised zombies, to varying degrees. a clueless guru with no power, no perception, no vibe, no intelligence, no experience of what he teaches and an insatiable lust for golden toilets, financed by an evil text-book company and suede jackets with subtle swan logos. Well said, except he has more income streams than those you mentioned. This is a business, please remember. What is the ''power'' or ''vibe'' you think he has, and why is it greater than anyone else's personal power? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 13, 1999 at 20:31:30 (EDT)
From: Liz Email: None To: Usually Censored Subject: waterfall wankers Message: Hi U.C., Are you saying just get on with practicing meditation (k) and forget the rest? I'm not sure where you are coming from but I found your post intelligent and 'freed up.' Are you a pam and/or a premie that is getting a lot out of practising k yourself? I am not feeling 'freed up' because I'm sick and tired of having absolutely no faith and many doubts. Seems when one has doubts one doubts about oneself and the universe. Would you recommend me to remove all doubts from my mind as the great master recommends? I would like to correspond with you via e-mail if at all possible. Doubting premie/doubting ex-premie. Liz. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 13, 1999 at 20:46:10 (EDT)
From: Liz Email: None To: Usually Censored Subject: waterfall wankers Message: Dear Usually Censored, I don't like being in 'doubtful' state of consciousness. It doesn't feel good. Do you propose I remove all doubt from my mind like the great one. I am sick and tired of being in this state of doubt. Please correspond with me via email if you feel like it. Regards, Liz Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 13, 1999 at 22:53:47 (EDT)
From: Nim Email: None To: Usually Censored Subject: Usually Censored + Amtext Message: Perhaps because they know that some of the 'bad' stuff is untrue or exaggerated, some is irrelevant and that the remaining 'bad' stuff, in context, is far outweighed by the power, magnificence and tastiness of something they find quite beautiful and lasting. In the case of Amtext, there have been many over the years involved with this company who HAVE LEFT, or no longer have any dealings with the company. Bookbuyers have gone over to deal with other companies. Amtext has had its fair share of premie employees who have also left because they felt that they were being taken advantage of. To begin with this is a company which was ripped off from the individual who conceived of it by a group of ashram premies led by Chuck Nathan. RDS already posted his story here on the forum. Then there is a history of dissension in this company driven by the greed of a few of the top people (Chuck Nathan and Barbara Brogan) to bring in the greatest profit for m, and that has engendered a dog eat dog competitive mentality among premie buyers leaving many on the losing end feeling sufficiently victimized. Then there are premie book buyers who in a sense do become 'ex premies', but continue dealing with Amtext out of habit, or their reluctance to change a business relationship that has worked for them, especially if they feel they run the risk in incurring the company's wrath down the road. For example, what happens if a book buyer jumps off the good ship Amtext and then a couple of years later needs Amtext's support in vouching for expenses that are being scrutnized during an IRS audit? Such as travelling to events with MJ. I remember Colin Neiburger of the Amtext office suggesting to me during my period of indoctrination how a 'happy' relationship with the Amtext office would be helpful in precisely that and other ways. So reluctance to change, even fear in doing so is what keeps some people within the Amtext orbit even when they no longer feel anything for m. As long as they are not hostile towards m or the office, they're 'permitted' to keep on doing business with the company. So now Usually Censored(Nil in disguise), what about what has been told here re: Amtext is untrue, irrelevant or exaggerated? Do you care to say? Or is it time to duck and run? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 13, 1999 at 17:38:45 (EDT)
From: Stevei Email: None To: Liz Subject: The Whole picture? Message: Liz .....there are very few people who would really know the inner workings of the M machine...Peter P/Glen/Sandy/Ross would not even get anywhere near the inner ring to know what is going on... I guess that there cant be more then five people in the whole world who really know what is going on... M himself, his accountant, his lawyer ...and maybe one or two others and even tzhen,,,those people would only have a partial view of the whole picture...no one knows the whole picture except M....very simple really Let me be more specific...any donations from the national secs is passed on to EV international...that is then I guess passed on to EV Foundation...the national secs (glen/peter etc) only know what they have sent up...they dont know the rest of the details.. Its called Divide and Rule ...and it was invented by the British Raj ...over 200 years ago...nothing new You only know what you need to know...nothing more... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 13, 1999 at 19:33:32 (EDT)
From: Liz Email: None To: Stevei Subject: Divide & Rule? Message: What is Divide & Rule? Tell me more please. Regards, Liz Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 14, 1999 at 12:52:26 (EDT)
From: Stevei Email: None To: Liz Subject: Divide & Rule? Message: Liz...do u really not know what this expression means? you pulling my leg or somthing...I think it is even pre-Roman.... Comeon liz u must know what it means.... :-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 14, 1999 at 17:21:15 (EDT)
From: Liz Email: None To: Stevei Subject: Divide & Rule? Message: No Stevei, I'm not too proud to admit that I don't know what it means. Please explain. Love, Liz Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 15, 1999 at 01:59:33 (EDT)
From: Runamok Email: None To: Liz Subject: Divide & Rule? Message: Usually expressed as 'Divide and conquer' which is from Rome, I guess. The opposite is the expression, 'United we stand, divided we fall.' So, for example, we're united enough to hangout on this website and tell Miragey to kissoff, and it does do some damage. Think? If he could completely divide us, we wouldn't be able to publicize his wrong doings. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 11, 1999 at 12:16:31 (EDT)
From: G's mom Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Hi JM Message: I just did what you said and saw the Yahoo link. I have an idea. Can you let Yahoo know you have pictures? Premies LOVE pictures. You could lure them to the dark side with pictures. Premie....'oh I wonder if he has a pic of my Lord in the Mala, stop stop evil mind, I can't click on JM's site, Oh Oh but a pic of my Lord ( I know he's just a master wink wink) Just one look won't hurt' CLICK, CLICK CLICK goes the browser 'Awe look at those devotees admiring the horse's ass' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 10, 1999 at 09:43:54 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Mental virus to Dawkins (1) Message: [I found this when looking for other stuff on Dawkins re my argument with Run. One fo the the things Dawkins is noted for is the concept of the 'Meme' or mental replicator which he has speculated exists as a cultural analogue of the gene. That is, as a thought with some form of built-in strategy for survival. At one point, Dawkins analogized religion to being a particularly insidious 'meme', at least from the perspective of the host organism. This article, then, is a satirical development of that idea. There's some neat stuff in it, I think. Worth posting anyway.] Freethinker. Jan 1997 vol 117(1) 8-10 A MIND VIRUS WRITES TO RICHARD DAWKINS Dr. John R. Skoyles Dear Richard. Sometimes a friend makes a cake --and it tastes fine but they leave out the best ingredient. Your linking of religion with viruses is like that: a splendid idea --but it is a pity you do not know more about us viruses. You innocently treat me and my brethren DNA viruses as mere replicators which hitch a free copying service from a cell's own replicating machinery or its equivalent in the mind. Richard, duplicating yourself upon others is never so easy. We, whether viruses of DNA or the mind, face the hassle that cells and minds do not like being duped and abused. Naturally, they make life hard -- they do not let you in, and once in they do their best to detect and stop you. Imagine what it is like being a DNA virus. Cells might have replication machinery waiting there to copy you but cells also block access by surrounding themselves with membranes. And entry is only the start of your problems. Cells make existence tough against foreigners. Worse, the bodies they make long ago evolved to spot and destroy any cells viruses had taken over. After all, the reason you, Richard, as a human, have an immune system is to pick up and destroy infections -- and that includes viruses. You may be grateful that evolution has given your body this ability, but from the viewpoint of me and my brethren the immune system is an enemy on the look out to stop us making any more copies of ourselves -- it is no friend. And this is where Professor Richard you mistake us -- we are not mere replicators. Like our modus operandi we borrow our tools of survival -- with the devices of the immune system we outwit the cell. Look inside us and you will find we are packed with kidnapped genes from the immune system (and the normal workings of the cell) for making proteins reversed-engineered to sabotage its baring, detection and destruction of us. Scientists have even taken to looking over our genes to see bits of the immune system we have kidnapped (we were there first) but they have overlooked. Take entry, cells have a transport system across their membranes in the form of receptors. Packed in our survival gear are kidnapped proteins which link with them and so like forged passports let us in. We have more problems once inside a cell. You may think your cells are passive but we can see them engaged in a constant dance by which specialised carrying-proteins take protein fragments (including bits of us) from its depths to its surface for display to immune cells such as lymphocytes which give cells a check over as to whether foreigners (detected by our alien protein fragments) have entered. We need to stop them being alerted. How? Long ago, we kidnapped the genes responsible for making such proteins and rewrote them to make fifth columnists which subversively take the place of bona fide ones but refuse to handover protein fragments and so give us away. Smart arn't we? But you have not seen anything yet of how we turn the immune system against itself. Sometimes in spite of our best efforts, the immune system is put on alert. But then we deploy more kidnapped and rewritten genes. If certain proteins attach to the cell advertising that we are within, then we create subversive fifth columnist ones which float outside cells putting the immune system off the trail as to where we hide -- -- rather like the decoys and tin-foil used by aircraft to confuse enemy radar -- the immune response becomes thus lost in a fog of false signals. Another trick is to confuse the immune system by using the proteins it uses to coordinate its attack. Guess what? We make lots of extra copies and deluge its communication system with spurious messages and so put its workings in a muddle. So Professor Dawkins you have got us wrong and we want correction. We are not mere replicators: we are super-replicators packed with smart counter-defences like faked passports, decoys, camouflage and communication jamming. We cannot survive without these hijacked tricks --cruel scientists have even made copies of us minus them and the immune system just spots and zaps us out. Now Professor Dawkins if you do not understand my DNA virus brethren, how can you understand us viruses of the mind? Getting them wrong, you are bound to fail to give us the credit we are due for our smartness in the replication business. Like DNA viruses we face a tough world. After all, people do not adopt stupid, false and bigoted ideas like us easily --let alone devote their lives evangelising so that others get infected and evangelise them on further. The human species in spite of some lapses are rather rational and basically kind creatures. Indeed, if they knew how to let this side of them win out, we mind viruses would have long ago like bear-baiting and slavery died out and entered the history books. The questioning Greeks, I should briefly note, were just about to do this. Euripides after all had the character Talthybius in his play Hecabe ask, are 'all our beliefs in gods, a myth, a lie foolishly cherished, while blind hazard rules the world?'. His contemporary Diagoras of Melos argued that the Gods could not exist since wrong doers were never punished -- he was even called ho Atheos -- Greek for atheist. The Greeks were beginning to think and stop us. It was a risky moment in the history of mind viruses. Fortunately, like our DNA brethren we learnt quickly how to hijack and turn such rationality against itself. The Greeks might have discovered logic but it took us only a century or so to kidnap and rewrite it into theology and so keep us in business. Thus to understand me, you must understand such things as how I put common sense --- the 'immune system of the mind' -- in reverse. But first --like my DNA brethren -- I have to get into people's minds --I am foreigner no one would want taking over their thoughts and behaviour. Thus like my brethren DNA viruses I must get past the boundaries people put in place to keep intolerant and stupid ideas like me out. That is a tough task: people do not take on new beliefs lightly --they demand evidence, logic and morality. Thus, it is not easy to gain access into people's minds --people are no fools. But like my brethren DNA viruses, Richard, I know how to transport myself in --by a kind of fake passport. To understand how, you have to understand some of the biology of the infant mind. Evolution long ago spotted young primates cannot know what is good and bad for them. After all they have not been around long enough to learn much about the dangers of the world. Evolution therefore gave them a short cut -- child psychologists call it social or maternal reference. Children look to who they trust usually mother and learn direct from them. Mum or any other trusted figure knows what to rely on and what to fear. Thus a young mind can skep learning the hard and potentially dangerous way from experience and use trusted figures. For us viruses it is literally a Godsend. Indeed, it is such a good entry into the mind we hijack it twice. First, think about it, once I have got into mum's mind, I have her children. They look to her for what to trust and they find, all my fake 'knowledge' evolved to replicate myself --and they look at what to fear and they find all my warnings about not using the 'immune system' of their commonsense -- 'temptations of the devil' -- to reject me. Moreover, I put it in their heads that I am better than real knowledge (which is always open to doubt and challenge) since I am unchangeable, absolute, and of course, unquestionable. Indeed, I am so fundamental to reality that I am more real than life itself. Thus I program people (you call it religious instruction, Bible classes and Confirmation) to ignore (well try do) present concerns and seek instead do things which copy me out of concerns about the scared, God and what happens after death. In particular, I teach parents they should raise children to hold me in total respect as the truth and source of all that is right and wrong. Naturally, I ensure if someone marries that whatever their partner's wants, they infect, or to use the polite euphemism 'raise', their in children in 'the true faith'. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 10, 1999 at 09:44:56 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: Mental virus to Dawkins (2) Message: What chance do children have --hardly any. I still however do not risk things. Parents are not always reliable and can (worries of worries) raise their children with the examining independence that might doubt and reject me. Therefore I hijack a child's learning from trusted figures in a second way to remove that danger: I delude some people to hear 'a calling' to devote their lives to being better than real-life mums, dads and other kin: in your parlance, Mother Superior this and Father that (even though, of course, the one thing I do not let them, at least publicly, be is real mothers and real fathers). Children therefore do not only turn to their mums and dads and elder siblings but my bogus Mothers, Fathers, Brothers and Sisters. They are my hottest replicators. But my problems like my DNA brethren are not over once I gain entry. As much as the body has an immune system to rid itself of viruses so does the mind -- commonsense. People seek not to be fools and try to free themselves of dotty-ideas. They are always unfortunately checking their ideas for errors and mistakes. This makes it a hostile world out there for us --I noted above ever since the Classical Greeks people have been coming to the conclusion that the idea that the Gods exist and have power over us is absurd. (Even Aristotle knew we were a con, for instance, he observed that religious mythology and ritual 'was introduced to persuade the multitude and with a view to practical use for the laws and expediency' -- Metaphysics 1074b 1-8). Thus while atheists seem to think it is hard to convince people that God is a lot of nonsense, for us viruses of the mind, people seem always at the point of realising that religion is just this and junking us. Fortunately like my DNA brethren we know how to protect ourselves by turning what should protect people to our advantage. Our main defence is to turn reasoning against itself --we get people to back-reason. This is like bona fide reasoning except it works in reverse. In proper reasoning you start with premises and deduce from them conclusions. In back-reasoning, you start off with the conclusion you need and invent arguments which give them support. Getting people to reverse their reasoning is useful both in entrapping people in religious beliefs, and once caught creating theological prisons to hold them. To get people to reverse reason, I put them in what psychologists call 'cognitive dissonance'. This is felt when we find we have done or said things that lack sensible justification. People face a kind of intellectual embarrassment - - they look at the absurdity they have done and wonder how they came to waste their time, respect and money. Like nature, minds do not like a vacuum -- people look around for justifications. They thus are vulnerable to any arguments (however loony) which fill this gap. To exploit this weakness I get people to believe and do absurd things. They need to be over-the-top ridiculous so that people cannot explain having believed or done them other than for the story I invent for them --for instance, that they are required by ancient sacred doctrine to keep the Devil away, the Universe together, Sun to rise tomorrow etc etc. Some aid my replication such as giving up 10% of their income or knocking on doors with religious leaflets. But most are pure stupidities: really silly things and beliefs righteously executed believing, that if they were not done, the world would end. One of my most popular is getting people to eat bread and drink wine served by a man in camp drag while believing they are not actually eating bread or drinking wine but first century AD cannibals eating the flesh and blood of their Saviour. Even the Monty Python team could not think of anything with more fruit and nut than that. Now if people do and believe over-the-top absurdities especially for a number of years they are trapped. What kind of story could they tell themselves? Are they likely to be open that they have been wasting their money, lives and self-respect over crazy and idiotic ideas? Giving a tenth of what you earn to the church and believing that the Lord is a pointless myth do not fit. No, instead, of bravely admitting having held and done nonsense, they cling to me even more strongly. They back-reason from the absurdities they do to the justifications -- 'faith' -- preached to them. No, you are not stupid -- in eating that wafer, your are really sharing in the sacred event of the Lord. A tenth of ones income is not down the drain but an obedience to God's Law. People thus never risk questioning my stranglehold over them. Suppose they did. Full marks for bravely accepting I have wasted their lives and money for superstitious gibberish. Fortunately for my continued existence people have too much pride and self-deception to wise up. I have another problem. Like my brethren DNA viruses I need to infect people not only as virologists say vertically --down from their parents (described above) but horizontally -- to converts. Worse, some people with good religious upbringing drop me, as I have said, most people if aware would view me as ridiculous, immoral and intolerant -- some wake up that I am and kick me out. Fortunately, I can find other ways to enter adult minds using back-reasoning. To get in I use lots of tricks. I have the infection with me promoted as being a way to be, if not socially desirable, at least special. It works well on those feeling insecure and uncertain about who they are -- an experience common in modern times. I offer them the privilege of being one of 'the chosen ones'. As a member of my closed group they can feel self- righteous that they are amongst the elect and 'saved'. Sometimes I have a little trouble here: some groups go a little far and to get more recruits name dates for salvation. Bad idea --the hour always passes like any other. Far better to leave the date vague or better shift the great event into an 'after-life'. Christianity has built into a nice replication business from rather unpromising beginnings upon that nonsense. You should not think getting people to fool for this is easy. People may be vulnerable for the self-delusion of being special but they still have wits to see a con --if you do not approach them correctly. The art is to be gradual. Invite people with an air of openness, friendship and 'a need to investigate the other side'. Offer them soft sells talk about caring for others and brotherly love -- all the values with which no one would disagree. And ask people do just a small something. Nothing initially big, share a small pray, make a small donation, or help in the reading of some Bible passage. You do not even need to ask --people's sense of not offending will be enough. But the foot has been put in the door. They have done something with which they can later be identified and with which you can move them to bigger things. Before long they discover without knowing it that they have done real stupidities. People may think they act out after carefully reasoning. But social psychologists know otherwise -- people can readily be induced into doing nearly anything however absurd providing the social situation has been made to lead them on without cause to reflect. Thus people easily find themselves getting more committed and snared without spotting the subtle manipulations played upon them. I enter people because most people underestimate the power of this slippery slop of social persuasion using 'back-reasoning' and induced 'cognitive dissonance'. Now Professor Dawkins you should understand why I worry you underestimate my brethren DNA viruses. We, DNA and mind viruses do not just copy ourselves, our survival depends upon undermining determined defences. If you are going to write about us, then note how we viruses hijack and put in reverse these defences. A virus whether of DNA or the mind cannot survive if it is a mere replicator: survival requires that we are also subversive and smart. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |
Date: Mon, May 10, 1999 at 10:46:33 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: Dawkins started it Message: Yes, Jim, I think you're right. Dawkins first introduced the idea of memes in 'The Selfish Gene' back in 1976. The idea, itself, has become a meme. Check out all the books that have been written on the subject since. memes, Memes, MEMES!!!, They're everywhere! Aaaaaarghhhh! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 10, 1999 at 12:55:06 (EDT)
From: L Email: None To: Jerry/Jim Subject: Interesting Stuff Message: Good point Jerry; the idea itself has become a meme. I've been doing some research in this area; trying to understand what connections, if any, there are to memes, emotional intelligence, mental constructs and ethnic culture, among other things. Of course meme is just another label for a supposenly mental process and its content. Assuming it is valid and reliable, it is applicable to so many things especially cults. M introduced a host of mental clusters to his followers, clusters that were viral in nature, and not only were they viral but they also had their built-in defense mechanisms, making them highly resistent. Thus we have a breaking away process, struggle for many, to leave M's virus/indoctrination. Variables within the M cluster paradigm are designed for self-doubt and dependence on the master. Thanks guys for the website(s) connections, I'm really fascinated by this stuff, especially how the process works in particular cultures, among different racial groups, different gender and ethnic backgrounds. I'm working on my Ph.D. in Cultural (Indigenous) Psychology, which values human diversity, and these sites give me and added resource. Just for the fun of it I would love to do a psychological profile on Rawat and his family, would be interesting, bearing in mind anyone can be diagnosed, healthy or not, using the DSM V. Good post, good academic information. Regards, 'L' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 10, 1999 at 04:00:11 (EDT)
From: A former follower of M Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Is he in your Will Message: I just found the will I wrote some 10 years ago. In it I made vast provisions for one Prem Pal Singh Rowatt. Today I am signing a new will totally excluding him. Just thought I'd post this in case anyone else had forgotten to cast him out of their will. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 10, 1999 at 08:52:53 (EDT)
From: ex-mug Email: None To: A former follower of M Subject: Is he in your Will Message: Good idea - I re-wrote my will 2 years ago excluding P.P.Rawat, and it felt fabulous!!!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 10, 1999 at 13:58:11 (EDT)
From: Liz Email: None To: A former follower of M Subject: Is he in your Will Message: I wondered why the only letters he seems to reply to are premie deaths. Now I realise he is hoping for a very big donation! There's one born every minute! Liz Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 10, 1999 at 18:57:37 (EDT)
From: Zac Email: None To: Liz Subject: Dead premies Message: I'd love to see the numbers on the money generated annually by dead premies. Dead Premies great name for a band. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 11, 1999 at 21:40:19 (EDT)
From: Mary M Email: None To: Liz Subject: Pauper Premies Corpses Message: Hi Liz, Were you around during the 'Dead Pauper Premies' thread? In a nutshell I was wondering what DLM/EV did with an, impoverished, ashram premie's corpse (if they died while slaving to raise seed money for greedy venture capitalists 'Mayaettes'). I seem to recall one of the 'Living Mayaettes' aka Premies went ballistic on me with this particular topic. Any clues? Did the Elan Vital Education Foundation own a pauper's field somewhere? I'd love to see the look on the 'Lord of Mayas' face when he opens a letter expecting a sizable chunk of a dead premies insurance policy and finds out he gets zilch. Ha! Here's an idea we can all try: I'm revising my will and leaving the 'Lord of Maya' six dollars and ninety-nine cents. That's a pretty good number don't you think? Contrary Mary Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 11, 1999 at 22:40:36 (EDT)
From: JHB Email: None To: Mary M Subject: Pauper Premies Corpses Message: 'Ha! Here's an idea we can all try: I'm revising my will and leaving the 'Lord of Maya' six dollars and ninety-nine cents. That's a pretty good number don't you think?' Too much - 23 cents, and a worthless paperweight sounds more suitable. John. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 09, 1999 at 20:42:05 (EDT)
From: Irish Nanny Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Flame Form Message: From: 'Gerald M. Phillips, Ph.D.' Subject: HUMOR Digest - Flame Form Letter =============================================== Dear [ ] sir [ ] clueless one [ ] twit [ ] great man on campus [ ] madam [ ] dweeb [ ] twerp [ ] comrade [ ] Elvis [ ] moon beam [ ] boor [ ] Obergruppenfuehrer [ ] citoyen [ ] Geek [ ] grad student [ ] cur You are being gently flamed because. [ ] you continued a boring useless stupid thread [ ] you repeatedly posted to the same thread that you just posted to [ ] you repeatedly initiated incoherent, flaky, and mindless threads [ ] you posted a piece riddled with profanities [ ] you advocated Net censorship [ ] you SCREAMED! (used all caps) [ ] you posted some sort of crap that doesn't belong in this group [ ] you posted the inanely stupid 'Make Money Fast' article [ ] you threatened others with physical harm [ ] you made a bigoted statement(s) [ ] you repeatedly assumed unwarranted moral or intellectual superiority [ ] you are under the misapprehension that this group is your preserve [ ] you repeatedly shown lack of humor [ ] you are apparently under compulsion to post to every threat [ ] you are posting an anonymous attack >>> Thank you for the time you have taken to read this. Live n' Learn.<<< Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 09, 1999 at 21:28:53 (EDT)
From: Zac Email: None To: Irish Nanny Subject: Just for fun Message: I am an international businessman who travels the world but will not answer any questions about what I actually do. I might even be a lawyer, infact I eat other lawyers for lunch that's why I wont answer a question from one. I can't write English, Aussie, or any other language so I blame it on the keyboard, haven't figured out how to use the delete or backspace keys. I talk and talk and talk but no one understands a word of what I am saying. I know I am wasting my time but SCREAM at others who I think may be wasting their time. I credit my teacher with giving me lasting peace and happiness but am rude and uncompassionate with anyone who did not understand and appreciate this great gift. Even my friends who know nothing think the x forum is full of idiots. I won't answer a single honest question from anyone. This guy sounds like his master. Mahrji is that you? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 09, 1999 at 22:41:17 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: Zac Subject: Just for fun Message: Zac: I always appreciate your posts. Keep it up. This one was particularly insightful. You stuck up for me one time or another, and it helped. Thanks. Marianne Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 10, 1999 at 06:48:17 (EDT)
From: Zac Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Just for fun Message: Hi Marianne: Nice to read your posts. Real success story. It's funny that I kinda know alot about all you guys but I don't find myself doing much back and forth chatting. This format is just the opposite of the current premie scene where you see people regularly but don't even know their name. Here you never see people, except Selene, Jean Michel and Katie, but feel like you know them. Cheers. Zac Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 10, 1999 at 02:37:53 (EDT)
From: Roger Conspiracy Drek Email: None To: Zac Subject: yeah, where is Maharaji? Message: Zac might be onto something here - This guy sounds like his master. Mahrji is that you? Not that I want to give Maharaji any ideas, but the guy is always on tour stuck in a dingy hotel room, stuffed with lousy room service food and loaded on cognac. He's alone, missing his family and friends. So he jacks-in the old Mac PowerBook and answers his email (shp, that's you, babe), surfs over to the BBC, www.maharaji.org, www.enjoyinglife.org and finally www.ex-premie.org where he loses his cool and can no longer operate the keyboard and starts screaming. Soon, he gets bored and starts surfing the XXX sites and eventually passes out. Wait a minute! That's me except I'm in a downtown Boise fleabag firetrap hotel and I'm drinking fortified wine. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 09, 1999 at 22:07:55 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundgos@hotmail.com To: Irish Nanny Subject: Flame Form Message: Dear TD, That was EXCELLENT! :) Thanks. I thought you were Helen. Everyone else thinks everyone is Keith, I think everyone is Helen. She is some kind of grandma, that I KNOW. Oh well. Glad you signed TD so I know who to thank. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 09, 1999 at 19:20:33 (EDT)
From: Sir David Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com To: Everyone Subject: Learning more Message: Somebody very unimportant wrote: 'You continually default to past events or safe- zones,typical ex behavior!!' If you analyse this there is a clear indication of cult thinking. At the very least, 90% of all people who received the Knowledge via Guru Maharaj Ji have left his trip long ago, never to return. So in cult terminology, these people are all ex-premies. And yet we have above, a statement supposedly written by a current premie critisising 90% of all the people who ever received knowledge. Those 90% are just ordinary people. But according to the rather immature and stupid premie, the thinking of all these people is wrong. Their typical behavour is wrong while his is right. Tiny mentality in a big world, just about sums it up. Someone mentioned something about old ex-premies not being clued up on the crazy way Maharaji's trip is in the nineties. I guess I fit that description. But I am seeing more than ever now that Maharaji runs a crazy and very desperate cult. Desperate to survive with an ever more fervent us and them mentality. The rather silly person who is puffed up with self importance has also said something about not to worry guys, the time is fast approaching. This rung a bell with me because I remember Maharaji saying something like this - in 1971. I won't hold my breath on this one. I didn't the last time. Now there's some good Aussies. Paul Hogan is one. Clive James and Rolf Harris are two more but it seems to me that some of the criminals we shipped over in the old Empire days didn't adjust too well to the Oz climate. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 09, 1999 at 19:37:58 (EDT)
From: CD Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Learning more Message: >Desperate to survive with an ever more fervent us and them mentality. I don't get that message from what M says or attending the events. More like, here is something to try, if you like it great, enjoy it and keep learning. If you feel like contributing, fine, do so, if not, don't. Feel the essence of your existence, enjoy your life and give high priority to gratitude for your life. Perform actions inspired by the feeling of love and peace. ALL human beings are important. CD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 09, 1999 at 20:00:31 (EDT)
From: Irish Nanny Email: None To: CD Subject: Learning more Message: Hi CD, Heard a bit about you on the threads. Up until today I really tried to be a wee bit open to premies posting, but alas I can't. My advice: bale out as fast as you can with whatever sensibility you have left. It's a con. The Maya family (Mr Maya, Mrs Maya and the Mayaettes) are the ultimate Grifters. The only jewels you experience or see are paste! Nice illusion for a while but the paste is starting to crumble. The latest lie just has me tickled pink I guess 'All Humans' did not include those of us that just found out today what Elan Vital purportedly was: Elan Vital, a non-profit, educational foundation Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 10, 1999 at 00:22:05 (EDT)
From: dvd Email: None To: CD Subject: Learning more Message: HI There CD. There is of course one other subject he mentions that you choose to leave out of your nutshell version. It is not downplayed by him, but is downplayed by all the publications and premies. shp will talk about it but he is the exception. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 10, 1999 at 06:15:15 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave Email: None To: CD Subject: Learning more Message: CD: I think YOU should be the perfect master and not Maharaji. You're a decent chap and your non heavy philosophy surrounding the meditation etc would be far more palatable to the masses and I bet you wouldn't require gold toilets and low paid servants. You wouldn't have banned satsang and premie communities, you're probably a better musician than Maharaji and almost certainly a more likable person. I could go with the peace and love references of Chris Dickey. The everything's cool attitude. I cannot help but thing that the whole idea of a perfect master or whatever he calls himself these days, is counterproductive to the practise of meditation or living a life of love and peace. The two don't mix, in my opinion. Ordinary people are OK. An exalted master is a no no, for me and many others. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 10, 1999 at 09:53:15 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Yes, that's it! CD for Master! Message: David, that's excellent. I've always been a little uncomfortable around CD anyway (he's so damned peaceful!), might as well worship the guy, you know? This is great. And you know, I've even already got a darshan story or two. Talked to Chris twice now. How many others can say as much? Chris, just tell me everything's going to be okay, eh? Get me to feel the gratitude and all that sutff. Alright! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 10, 1999 at 11:44:41 (EDT)
From: G's mom Email: None To: Jim Subject: Bhole Shri CD Ki Jai! (nt) Message: nt Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 10, 1999 at 01:22:48 (EDT)
From: Angus Young Email: None To: Sir David Subject: learning more Message: Maybe we should turn this certain cretin to the Autoerotic Asphyxiation Newsgroup and he can learn more how to relieve his sexual tensions. Angus 'Let Me Put My Love Into You' Young Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 10, 1999 at 04:57:31 (EDT)
From: Hapless Email: None To: Sir David Subject: arse about Message: I think you poms stuffed up big time sending all the convicts to Oz.It would of made better sence for the general populace to go to Oz and leave the crims in England.Brrrrrrrrrr. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 09, 1999 at 16:31:17 (EDT)
From: Rahab Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Purus Inc. Message: Hello to all, Is anyone familiar with the company Purus Inc. or any of the individuals other than Dettmers in the following list? Thanks - Rahab GROUP MEMBERS: COFINVEST 97 LTD GROUP MEMBERS: COURTAG AG GROUP MEMBERS: FRIEDLI CORPORATE FINANCE AG GROUP MEMBERS: FRIEDLI PETER GROUP MEMBERS: GREAT ESLYN SIDE INC. GROUP MEMBERS: HANS C. OCHSNER GROUP MEMBERS: LOMBARD ODIER & CIE GROUP MEMBERS: ROSE RITA GRAETZ GROUP MEMBERS: SALVANO CAMINELLI Currently, the Board of Directors of the Company is comprised of the following three individuals: Russell K. Burbank, Michael V. Dettmers and Reinhard Siegrist. The Committee intends to solicit proxies to be voted at the Special Meeting for the removal of Messrs. Burbank and Dettmers from the Board of Directors. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 09, 1999 at 16:56:39 (EDT)
From: cp Email: None To: Refer Subject: Note-heres'Salvano Caminelli' Message: nt Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 10, 1999 at 17:30:16 (EDT)
From: Mary M Email: mem_mcgraw@msn.com To: cp Subject: Note-heres'Salvano Caminelli' Message: Hi cp, Any details? E-mail me if you want. luv, m Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 09, 1999 at 14:21:49 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek Email: None To: Everyone Subject: More research please Message: Just hit paydirt with many research articles on page by Professor David G. Bromley, Sociology and Anthropology, Virginia Commonwealth University Bromley at VCU From Bromley's page on Divine Light Mission is the following: DIVINE LIGHT MISSION Required Readings: Galanter, Marc. 'A Charismatic Sect: The Divine Light Mission.' CULTS: FAITH, HEALING, AND COERCION. New York: Oxford University Press, 1989, pp. 21-36. Melton, Gordon. 'Divine Light Mission.' ENCYCLOPEDIC HANDBOOK OF CULTS. New York: Garland Publishers, 1986, pp. 141-145. Messer, Jeanne. 'Who is Guru Maharaj'ji?' THE NEW RELIGIOUS CONSCIOUSNESS. Edited by Charles Y. Glock and Robert N. Bellah. Berkeley, CA: University of California Press, 1976, pp. 52-72. ***Pilarzyk, Thomas. 'The Origin, Development, and Decline of a Youth Culture Religion: An Application of Sectarianaization Theory.' REVIEW OF RELIGIOUS RESEARCH 20 (1978): 23-43. Supplementary Readings: Bisschops, A. 'Some Results of Analysis of Conversion Processes in Two New Religious Movements.' (Ananda Marga and Divine Light Mission), Nijmengen Psychological Laboratory (1979): pp. 39-47. |
Date: Sun, May 09, 1999 at 15:34:52 (EDT)
From: Liz Email: None To: Roger E. Drek Subject: More research please Message: Hi Roger, That's quite a cache you found. I tried hitting paydirt and only got some oil comany. I e-mailed David Bromley as I would really like to read these papers. Kind Regards, Liz. ps. It's snowing here would you believe? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 09, 1999 at 16:24:44 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek Email: drek@oz.net To: Liz Subject: Snowing where? Message: Liz, Where are you? If you want to keep that secret can you email me? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 09, 1999 at 16:55:51 (EDT)
From: Mary Email: None To: Roger E. Drek Subject: Snowing where? Message: Hey Rog, Wherever Liz is she's having a hell-of-a-good time celebrating mother's day with her champagne! Luv, M Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 09, 1999 at 16:06:01 (EDT)
From: Mary M Email: None To: Roger E. Drek Subject: More research please Message: Thanks Roger, This research is a keeper. Looks like I'll be reading a bit. Luv Ya, Mary M Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 09, 1999 at 19:10:48 (EDT)
From: bookworm Email: None To: Mary M Subject: More research please Message: I can send you one of the books if you want. the 'conversion' book. Jim's copy of 'who is' the video is on the desk in a shipping box. (he will want to know) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 09, 1999 at 17:02:57 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: Roger Paydirt Drek Subject: Research discovery Message: One of the entries you list is authored by Jeanne Messer. Jeanne and her husband John owned a premie house in Berkeley in the '70's, and premies lived there. Jeanne and John were very nice people and I think were connected with Cal, but I am not sure. It has been a lot of years. They were very active in the community. I think that Patrick McCracken lived with them. I knew him just after he got Knowledge. I have fond memories of him at that time. Are you, or is anyone else, going to try to obtain these materials? I'm interested. I had no idea all this stuff was out there. Some of it looks like fascinating reading, and people we know are probably discussed. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 09, 1999 at 17:15:51 (EDT)
From: Roger Lazy Drek Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Research discovery Message: Oh, I'd like to get the stuff. I usually drop the ball when I've got to like go somewhere (like leave the house and go to the Post Office) or something involving getting permission to publish. Do you usually need permission to post 10, 15 and 20 years research? I'm hoping that some ex-premie has these journals in their basement or attic. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 09, 1999 at 17:30:36 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: Roger Lazy Drek Subject: Research discovery Message: When I get done with my court hearing, maybe I'll send my paralegal off to UC Berkeley to dig this stuff up. Cal should have most of these materials, if they can be found anywhere. As far as copyright issues, don't ask me. I know nothing about that area of law. Does anyone else out there? How about you wonderful webmasters? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 09, 1999 at 21:28:19 (EDT)
From: Amorous Alma Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Research discovery Message: Let's go ahead and put what ever articles we come up with on line. And worry about the (miniscule) consequences later. Hey, it's a free world isn't it? (MA# 22) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 10, 1999 at 09:57:27 (EDT)
From: Denise Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Research discovery Message: Your poor paralegal! Hey, they're a godsend, aren't they? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 10, 1999 at 12:00:37 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: Denise Subject: Research discovery Message: Hi Denise! How are you doing? Actually, she's really a mystery writer (published w/awards and all that) but she got hooked on doing some work for one of my cases. I think she'll find it interesting, in a bizarre sort of way. She's great. How's that crystal ball into the future looking? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 10, 1999 at 12:34:01 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Research discovery Message: Marianne, if you get this stuff, maybe we could circulate it and if any of it is enlightening, we could get Brian to put them on the site. If any place would have them, Berkeley would. Copyright is not a problem. There is a big exception regarding reprinting this stuff for discussion and criticism, which is what we would be doing. Plus, this stuff is older, often research papers, and no one is going to be concerned if they are reprinted in whole or in part. Some of this stuff may actually be on line. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 10, 1999 at 12:44:19 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: JW Subject: Research discovery Message: JW: I have decided to dispatch my paralegal to Berkeley to see what she can find. I'll do it when my hearing is over --- probably not until June. If anyone does an online search in advance, please let me know so that I can reduce my search accordingly. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 10, 1999 at 12:48:44 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: jmkahn@club-internet.fr To: Marianne Subject: Research bibliography Message: I've already a lot of documents and references on my site. I've added these new ones, and I'm ready to host copies or/and excerpts: Bibliography on DLM/EV Please feel free to send me those documents, snail mail or email. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |