Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum III Archive # 48 | |
From: May 21, 1999 |
To: May 30, 1999 |
Page: 5 Of: 5 |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 13:38:32 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Everyone Subject: The programming is very deep Message: Deliberately prying ourselves from the things we loved in exchange for god-realization was very hard,. Now it’s equally challenging to find things to love. What a paradox! As kids, we could swim for hours on end even though our lips were blue. I can’t think of one thing that’s worth getting blue lips over, but I’m looking. I have too many programmed ideas. I realize that there is no path, no realization of the soul, no lord, no karma and all the other biggies. It's the little insidious plants of Guru Margarine? He has touched on so many things. I hung on his every word because I believed he was the superior power in person. I used to wonder why MJ's was so down on marriage, children, careers, family, materialism, politics when he was so immersed in these things himself. Of course, I knew why . We were hooked on Maya and MJ was showing us how to rise above these things--this was MJ's divine LIELA. Now, I really do believe that relationships, career, hobbies, etc. are a waste of time. Everything is temporary and hardly worth the effort. Nothing lasts. I now lack personal movitation and must drag myself to things that might be enjoyable. You see, when I surrendered the reins of my life to MJ, it slowly sucked the life out of me. All my personal interests died. I have none. Almost everything I did had an ulterior motive. A good education meant I could make more money and see the Lord more ('If I were a premie, the only reason I would work would be to go see my Guru Maharaj Ji.'.) My life was not lived for my own interest. I did not operate on a free level for a long time. I did many things against my will because they were good for my soul. What soul? How many decades will it take to come away from this? Have any of you ever felt this way? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 14:17:33 (EDT)
From: KB Email: None To: Gail Subject: insidious Message: Yes, we are like you but you are very good at articulateing it. In fact I copied some of your posts because they say it so well. I have lots of stuff going and projects all lined up but like you I keep seeing where the effect still shows up and how it punched the life out of me in spite of my dogged enthusiasm. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 14:48:20 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Gail Subject: I know the answer Message: The answer, Gail, is to surround yourself with people who's internal guages were never ruined by the cult's radioactivity. People who really do enjoy life for all the things it's got to offer, sex, learning, love, art... just the standard set of pleasures and fulfillments. Sooner or later, your own calibration resettles in a normal range. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 14:54:28 (EDT)
From: Mary M Email: mem_mcgraw@msn.com To: Gail Subject: Yes... Message: Hi Gail, Yes, yes, yes... The Maharaji machine is a bit like a strip mining operation. It strips one of all that is valuable sometimes leaving behind what appears to be a wasteland. Eventually one finds that the most precious things in our lives were not really stripped away. They are too deep for such a shallow operation as M's. Deliberately prying ourselves from the things we loved in exchange for god-realization was very hard,. Now it’s equally challenging to find things to love. What a paradox! As kids, we could swim for hours on end even though our lips were blue. I can’t think of one thing that’s worth getting blue lips over, but I’m looking. Gail, come on down to Florida. I know a place with several springs that Jacque Cousteau declared to be an idyllic oasis with the purest water on earth. The temperature of the water stays 72 degrees year round. My friends have literally dragged me out of the water upon noting my lips and fingers were turning blue. Why, well it sounds silly but I've somehow mastered the art of swimming with the fish;-) There are gar, mullet, flounder, minnows, snapping turtles.... In the cool of the evening is the best time to go. The myriad of colors are astonishing. My years with the EV/DLM machine are what I call the 'colorless picture' years. (Taken from a song by Clonnad's Landmarks tape) I wept a river of tears over the 'lost' years. My years of weeping have passed. I have too many programmed ideas. I realize that there is no path, no realization of the soul, no lord, no karma and all the other biggies. It's the little insidious plants of Guru Margarine? He has touched on so many things. I hung on his every word because I believed he was the superior power in person. I used to wonder why MJ's was so down on marriage, children, careers, family, materialism, politics when he was so immersed in these things himself. Of course, I knew why . We were hooked on Maya and MJ was showing us how to rise above these things--this was MJ's divine LIELA. I can't say I hung onto his every word as his voice was too falsetto to my ears. I was a part of the culture that was LIELA'd to by MJ. I too have been in counselling. How could I ever explain the feelings of loss and being ripped off to my therapist? Somehow it all worked out. At one point my counselor insisted I pinpoint just one good thing that happened to me as a result of my involvement with the cult. Believe it or not I came up with three: The Tassajara Bread Book and meeting Mark & Barbara Huelsbeck. She said my third item was not necessarily a good one. It was my irrational fear of being re-incarnated as an Indian who followed MJ. To this day I disagree with her assessment as this fear kept me from taking my own life. Not worth the risk. Now, I really do believe that relationships, career, hobbies, etc. are a waste of time. Everything is temporary and hardly worth the effort. Nothing lasts. I now lack personal movitation and must drag myself to things that might be enjoyable. You see, when I surrendered the reins of my life to MJ, it slowly sucked the life out of me. All my personal interests died. I have none. Almost everything I did had an ulterior motive. A good education meant I could make more money and see the Lord more ('If I were a premie, the only reason I would work would be to go see my Guru Maharaj Ji.'.) My life was not lived for my own interest. I did not operate on a free level for a long time. I did many things against my will because they were good for my soul. What soul? How many decades will it take to come away from this? Have any of you ever felt this way? Gail, I don't think it will take you decades. Post cult depression is a reality many of us live with daily or sporadically. There will come a time when you're energy level goes back up. Take it easy on yourself. I spent a few years wandering a 'local prairie' in a blue funk. I didn't want to hear anyone's philosophy. In fact, I didn't want to hear anyone at all. I was down, way down. Mother nature decided to play a few games with me on that prairie that shook me out of my funk. The first incident was me body slamming right into a papa bison as I turned the corner of one path. For some reason this struck me as humorous. I did a 180 degree rapid turn and ran like hell laughing until my guts ached. Of course, no one believed my Bison story until the local paper came out with an article about them. The second event was a healing experience. It was evening and I was gazing out over the prairie when all of a sudden hundreds of lightning bugs started doing their light thing. I had goose bumps as I definitely felt some bonds breaking within me. Do you remember that song by Sting in which he sang about the 'Fortress around your heart... encircled you with snares and barbed wire'? It took a bit of time but I've at least let the drawbridge down and allowed others in... relationship wise. Of course being the contrary type sometimes I'll hurl them into the gator filled moat;-) Well Gail, I've gone on a bit. Remember too that your 'delicious' sense of humor and of the absurd will help pull you through. I read a book once by a physician who recommends three full fledged, gut-wrenching, on the floor laughing sessions a day. He claims it's emotionally healing and we also get in the prescribed amount of aerobic exercise required to keep a healthy heart! Take care. I look forward to all your posts. Luv, Mary Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 22:45:29 (EDT)
From: Diz Email: None To: Mary M, Gail Subject: Yes... Message: Dear Gail Yes, I know just what you mean. I think getting back a taste for regular old life is a major challenge. Sometimes I feel like I've got it. Other times I don't. Today I feel kinda blah. Mary, I loved your post. What did the bison do? Gail, I'd take Mary up on that invitation - hey, you've now got two reasons to go to Florida. Though I reckon that swimming hole would do you more good than the 'event'. I agree that hanging around non-cult people is a way to go. Sometimes when I've spent time with regular friends, or even just people who I work with, I feel great. FREE. The weight of MJ's trip isn't there. Yeah, I should do more of it. Kids are good people to hang out with. They tend to have a natural sense of wonder, they're interested in life and people. Also, I think sometimes it helps to just do things, even if you don't think they're going to be that great. A friend dragged me to a night-club the other day. I DIDN'T want to go, told her how I don't like that scene, the guys are all wierd, it's noisy, etc etc. In fact, I had a great time - a live band, and I scored a fantastic dancer for a couple of sets. That reminds me. When I first got out I used to listen to a lot of music. Music I could sing to, yell to, STRONG rhythm and lyrics. I think getting physical is a good idea. Like Mary's walks. JW once suggested finding someone who really knows what they're doing sexually, and going for it. Make it someone friendly. That's strong stuff, always did rival the big K in terms of experience for me. Though has its own addictive dangers. Hang in there, girl. You'll make it. It's a BIG process, and maybe doesn't end (sometimes I feel like that), but the cult-free area grows bigger every month. Love, Diz Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 18:45:16 (EDT)
From: Liz Email: None To: Gail Subject: The programming is very deep Message: Hi Gail, I'm sorry you are feeling depressed. I am going through very similar things. I didn't notice myself prying away from dear ones but it is very difficult to enjoy the world at the moment. I have a great husband and daughter. I live in a beautiful part of the world. It's sunny and warm and I've just got back from a two hour walk in the forest by the river.... and I feel DEPRESSED! My husband even said when I got back 'You're depressed' I need to try Prozac for a while. Although k made me think I didn't need drugs may be it will help me over this hump. Yesterday I went to the funeral of a fifteen year old girl who never woke up one morning. Today we have heard a friend is in hospital in a coma. You can email me and we can wallow or try and help each other along. I really hope we both feel better soon, Love, Liz Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 18:56:30 (EDT)
From: Nil Email: None To: Gail Subject: The programming is very deep Message: I know the feeling you describe. I've had it myself. All the hope we ever had was tied up in Maharaji, because he offered so much. You see, we've always known the world could only give us so much, so we left it behind and invested in an inner world. I know some get a lot of hope out of the outer world. I for one never, ever could. You stopped believing in his hope because you lost faith in him. So now that you've left the inner world behind, you don't have a heck of a lot left. I know that feeling. So why do you blame him for you losing faith? You've bought the dirt and smut that people dish out here... but do you know for sure? You have to have your hope somewhere Gail. Maybe it's Florida with Mary, maybe it's sex with Jim (sorry, I didn't mean it that way). You're right though, our programming is very deep... we're programmed to be happy! My experience is that there is an inner world; an inner joy; an inner source of fulfillment; something that doesn't let you down. But you are a proud person... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 19:08:36 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Nil et al Subject: The programming is very deep Message: Nil, I appreciate your honesty. Thanks to all of you for your comments. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 19:19:06 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Nil Subject: My theory Message: I think the kind of 'infinite happiness' gurus advertise is absolutely unobtainable and, in the final analysis, meaningless. Happiness is really and truly a relative experience. Like other human emotions, it's more developed than its counterparts in animals but it has the same biological origins. Did you see the new item yesterday or the day before about how scientists can now trigger good, old-fashioned depression by stimulating a part of the brain? This is all brain stuff, there's nothing cosmic about it. Life is bittersweet. We're all destined to know lots of happiness and sadness although the mix is by now means the same for everyone. Still, we all get lots of both by the time this how is done. That's just how it is. Accepting that, like accepting our own mortality, isn't easy. Maharaji preys on that fact by offering the impossible. Now what's so weird is that, in the old days, premies were honest about the fact that we hadn't attained the 'infinite state' we thought Maharaji, his family and even all the mahatmas enjoyed. We were on a path and would get there sooner or later, by His Grace. Today, however, there is no path and premies are trained to 'express' such stylized 'Gratitude, Appreciation and Understanding' as if to pretend they're already wading in the very pool they strove to find at the back of the north wind. So you get the weird Kabuki theatre of premies like Catweasel acting like a bile-drenched asshole here and then checking in to CD's premie forum and high-fiving it with Angel and Steven, everyone talking about how 'beautiful' they feel in the Master's Love. Someone, tell me I'm dreaming. Yes, Nil, it is sex. We've evolved to like sex enough to do it and that's why we like it. So we'll do it. Same with enjoying food and perhaps even good company. These are evolved pleasures, that's where they came from. There's just enough pleasure in life to make us keep going. If there were any less, we wouldn't bother and would simply die out. So evolution's built us with the capacity to enjoy the world, enough, at least, to procreate and raise and love our kids. Happiness is no guarantee and it certainly doesn't come from trying to strip away your mind. Maybe stilling your midn to some extent is just another nice way to enjoy life. I'm not saying that isn't true. But it's a big myth to think that there's some great well of 'peace' that's waiting to spill over. Maharaji himself is the greatest proof that that isn't so. Just look at the guy. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 19:53:32 (EDT)
From: Nil Email: None To: Jim Subject: My theory Message: We've evolved to like sex enough to do it and that's why we like it... Same with enjoying food and perhaps even good company. These are evolved pleasures... Enjoying sex and food are evolved pleasures? A gnat does both... what's so evolved about a gnat? There's just enough pleasure in life to make us keep going. If there were any less, we wouldn't bother and would simply die out. 'Enough' is a relative qualifier. If in eating and procreating, one cannot find 'enough', where do you send them for the enjoyment they seek? If one cannot find enough 'good company', where do you send them for the companionship they crave? Your 'that's-all-there-is' answers work for you Jim but they don't represent the full spectrum of human need. Many wiser men than you have, for those who needed it, pointed to a higher path than that of the gnat. Their words are clearly not for you... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 20:44:09 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Nil Subject: My theory Message: Enjoying sex and food are evolved pleasures? A gnat does both... what's so evolved about a gnat? A gnat does both but probably not with the same refined palate. It's the enjoyment we're talking about, right? By the way, I'd say gnats re extremely evolved -- compared to simpler organisms, Wouldn't you? 'Enough' is a relative qualifier. If in eating and procreating, one cannot find 'enough', where do you send them for the enjoyment they seek? If one cannot find enough 'good company', where do you send them for the companionship they crave? Your 'that's-all-there-is' answers work for you Jim but they don't represent the full spectrum of human need. Many wiser men than you have, for those who needed it, pointed to a higher path than that of the gnat. Their words are clearly not for you... Well this is the diabolical guru trap. By promising the impossible, he sings a siren call that traps us in confusion. Right before I got Knowledge I was doing a fair bit of acid. Not all that much, maybe around twenty trips or so. I really liked the experience and really wanted a way to bottle it. Maharaji, as you might remember, played on that very hope, promising us an 'internal LSD which you never had to come down from.' This, as we all know, was a lie. In fact, the very notion of being 'high' all the time makes no sense. Maharaji has doen his utmost over the years to keep out of sight of his premies to perpetuate the myth that he, at least, was 'high' like that. After a while, though, the truth gets out. Now the only premies who believe that do so out of sheer capricious willpower. There's no <>reason for them to think so. You talk about 'human needs'. What humans need is freedom from siren songs like Maharaji's. And yes, like other often-reverred 'wise men' too. We don't have a 'higher' path than the gnat because there is no path period. We're just here, the product of evolution which 'concocted' (without intention!) our amazingly beautiful complexity from amazingly beutiful simplicity. That's the real story, I think. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 21:03:15 (EDT)
From: Nil Email: None To: Jim Subject: My theory Message: We're just here, the product of evolution which 'concocted' (without intention!) our amazingly beautiful complexity from amazingly beutiful simplicity. That's the real story, I think. I applaude your qualifier 'I think'. I personally think differently. There is a calling to know something greater than the physical world that some hear loudly and others don't hear at all. Another amazing thing, don't you think... how two individuals thrown into the same soup can taste so differently the surrounding broth. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 21:14:49 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Nil Subject: My theory Message: I applaude your qualifier 'I think'. I personally think differently. On what basis? Say you'd never heard of this particular theory, we'll call it 'X'. Say I told you that I'd just heard of this amazing explanation for life, consciousness, the whole bag and it was all set out in this book, 'The Theory of X'. How could you rationally reject the theory without first understanding it? I say you couldn't. Don't you agree? Well now I have to ask you, what exactly do you understand about evolution? Call it a fact, call it a theory, it doesn't matter. What matters, here, is how well you understand it? I mean, we've all heard of the theory of relativity but I don't for a second think I have a meaningful grasp of it. Certainly not enough to go toe-to-toe with the phyisicists who've studied and worked with it all their lives. If I say it's wrong I better have a good reason. Arbitrary preference doesn't cut it. Nor does allegiance to an Indian guru. So, honestly Nil, what's the basis for your opinion? And, for that matter, what is your opinion? Spell it out. If evolution's wrong, how'd we get here? There is a calling to know something greater than the physical world that some hear loudly and others don't hear at all. Another amazing thing, don't you think... how two individuals thrown into the same soup can taste so differently the surrounding broth. Yeah, and there was a calling to join our cosmic friends out on Hale-Bopp too, wasn't there? Nil, humanity's been awfully wrong about a lot of things for a lot of time. One of them there things is this notion of a divine plan for man. That's just bullshit. There's definitely no evidence for it. That's for sure. and don't give me this crap about 'having ears to hear'. I was there, Nil. Been there, done it. In spades. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 15:18:46 (EDT)
From: Nil Email: None To: Jim Subject: My theory Message: And, for that matter, what is your opinion? Spell it out. If evolution's wrong, how'd we get here? Now where did you get the impression I didn't agree we are products of evolution... I crossed that milestone of understanding many years ago. Another milestone I crossed was realizing there is something that was existent before evolution began, drives it, and will exist after the universe implodes. Now THAT is valuable knowledge. You see, evolution is variable... change the average ambient temperature .5 a degree and you've got a different product. It's food for the intellect to be privey to this cause and effect... but it's not the whole meal by any stretch. ...and don't give me this crap about 'having ears to hear'. I was there, Nil. Been there, done it. Your ears are stuffed with your pride Jim... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, May 24, 1999 at 19:08:16 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Nil Subject: Oh, Nillllllllll...... Message: Nil: On what basis do you believe that the universe will EVER 'implode?' Have you been doing some reading about dark matter? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, May 24, 1999 at 19:13:34 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Nil Subject: Additionally, Nil Message: Nil: What evidence do you have that indicates the existence of anything (conscious or otherwise) prior to the big bang? Please don't quote hindu scripture, though.....they thought the world flew around the universe on the back of a turtle. Not exactly a well developed theory, don't you agree? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 25, 1999 at 16:25:23 (EDT)
From: Nil Email: None To: Mike Subject: Additionally, Nil Message: What evidence do you have that indicates the existence of anything (conscious or otherwise) prior to the big bang? None whatsoever Mike. I'm just trusting my instincts on this one. What's the scientific formula for love? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 25, 1999 at 17:38:02 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Nil Subject: I'm glad you asked Message: Nil: I'm not a biochemistry major, but I'm sure there is a formula that, when administered correctly, will in fact produce that wonderful 'feeling' we all call love. Maybe an area of the brain stimulated with a little electrical current. Nil, the point is this: You need to really investigate these other explanations. I'm not trying to be a smartalek here, either. Just as I concluded (years ago) that M 'might actually be' the lord incarnate, YOU must investigate the other side. The scientific side. The physical side. 'Admit' that there is a 'slight' possibility that this is all 'physical' in nature. But, you must be as honest in this endeavor as you were when you were first 'seeking ultimate truth.' I say doubting M's veracity should be ok. Truth stands on its own. If M is telling the truth, then a little doubt won't hurt a thing.....it couldn't hurt a thing because truth is truth, whether it's doubted or not, right? Leaving no room for doubt in your mind shouldn't mean 'pushing out' unanswered doubts. It should mean finding the answers..... that way, there are NO doubts whatsoever (IMHO). By the way, I like this side of you Nil.... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 25, 1999 at 20:01:48 (EDT)
From: Nil Email: None To: Mike Subject: I'm glad you asked Message: Truth stands on its own but... One thing I've noticed about the evaluation of the veracity of Maharaji is that when a person (not all but most) gives up on him, they lose a source of answers from the non-scientific side to the questions they are asking. They automatically discount everything they have ever heard from him about the subject of Knowledge and truth. So in effect, by pursuing a more balanced picture, they are becoming more imbalanced in their view. They can't seem to find the answers in the 'normal' places, and are bitter towards him because they think 'he's ruined their chances of finding happiness'. When you lose faith in him, you lose touch with the reality of something that was very dear to your heart. IMHO, if you expect science to answer the questions of the heart, you have given away the keys to the kingdom (so to speak). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 25, 1999 at 20:27:58 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Nil Subject: I'm glad you asked Message: Nil: 'IMHO, if you expect science to answer the questions of the heart, you have given away the keys to the kingdom....' I tend to disagree on this one. I found that once I really started 'participating' in science, my 'awe factor' rose immensely. The fact that I know how some things work doesn't diminish them in the slightest. In fact, my appreciation for the miracle (if you will) has grown tremendously. With every new answer, my appreciation grows. The difference is that I no longer 'worship' the mystery. Ignorance never got me off like knowing the answers does. I know I've said this before, but it bares repeating: Isn't it awesome that a 'random' collection of molecules-in-a-bag wants to make contact with other molecules-in-a-bag? Isn't it awesome that this same bag of molecules can 'appreciate' the fact of its own existence? Not only that, it can appreciate the existence of OTHERS (including bags that look nothing like itself). No, science hasn't diminished my appreciation of life in the slightest. By the way, although I am a scientist, that doesn't mean that I believe only scientists can 'participate' in the discoveries. Quite the contrary, anyone that has the desire to discover can do so. I recommend it highly! As to questioning M's veracity. Well, let's make it more human and say questioning ANYONE's veracity. If someone lies to you, it DOES leave a nasty taste in your mouth concerning whatever the lie was about. Example: The lies that were told to kids about the effects of drugs (e.g. the bogus claims of genetic damage caused by LSD, along with convincing thalidomide-baby pictures presented as LSD-babies). Did they think the kids wouldn't find out? What a bunch of idiots! NOW, when we really need our kids to believe us about Crack (a truely dangerous and lethal chemical that is unique in its ability to hook a first timer) they don't listen because they were lied to. How does this apply to M? Well, he DID say that he was going to feed the people (all of them), he DID say that he was greater than God, he DID say that Guru was god-incarnate. Well???? Now that we know this is a pile, why should ANYONE believe anything he has to say. Especially if we consider the the grandiose nature of the lies he told. This isn't a case of a kid lying about stealing a lollypop; this is BIG! Now, if we assume that M really WAS/IS lying, then wouldn't you think that those that wasted time on his bogus agenda should be pissed about wasting their time on a venture that was supposed to bring peace to this beleagured world? Honest effort is the effort that YOU put into this venture, Nil. What if we are right and you wasted all of these years on a dream that had NO chance of coming true. Wouldn't you be a little bit peeved? I know that I am... That's my take on it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 07:50:21 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Gail Subject: My theory Message: I do believe there is a maturational/developmental human path a la Erikson, Piaget, Kohlberg. the developmental model somehow gives me a sense of direction in the nebulousness of life.along with the basic tenets of the religion I was brought up in. A feeling of life's futility does bark at my heels sometimes, but that is our human condition, and I feel better knowing every other person has to go through that at some point. At one time in your life, Gail, you had a drive do stuff til your lips turned blue. It's still in there but like you said, you just submerged it in M's trip, oftentimes doing stuff you didn't want to do in order to 'advance your soul'. Hope you can grasp life by the balls again. Life is so short, you know? This may be off base, but you might also want to talk to a rabbi, I find modern rabbis to be really grounded in both the bitter and sweet of life. There's a good book called 'To Begin Again' by a female rabbi that is about dealing with loss--all kinds of loss. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 19:19:04 (EDT)
From: CD Email: None To: Gail Subject: time is deep Message: >How many decades will it take to come away from this? Have any of you ever felt this way? Obviously all is not well or people would not be killing each other around the world. Its not a new thing obviously because we do have the teachings of history. >I have too many programmed ideas. Who doesn't? Ever read 'The Hidden Persuaders'? Irregardless of what you think was planted in you, the fact remains that this life and the vastness of the universe really are a mystery. Yet it does feel solid at times and you have experienced great joy in your life. Instead of trying to figure out M, Bubba, programmed ideas and politics, take the time to sit in a quiet place and once again feel the peace beyond the intellectual turmoil. Thinking is great but there is a time for feeling. You have seen and felt beauty in your life. Hope is what you need to give you the strength to keep going and see more sunrises. I have confidence that you will succeed. Best wishes to you, Chris Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 19:29:21 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: CD Subject: 'Irregardless' isn't a word Message: Irregardless of what you think was planted in you, the fact remains that this life and the vastness of the universe really are a mystery. Beside that, Chris, I marvel at how you approach this mystery. If you were honestly interested in learning what you could about life and the universe you'd avail yourself of all that your fellow humans have learnt, i.e. science. The problem with your approach is that it worships the unknowingness of mystery, denying our urge and capacity to simply try to figure shit out. It's the classic question: do you want to worship the mystery or solve it? Don't forget, as soon as your mind starts turning to the mystery of life it imposes concepts and images galore. Usually in the form of some sort of spiritual advertising based on whatever culture you've known. Christians imagine Christian things, premies imagine Maharaji things. But it's all happening. The mind just relaly wants to know. So why not allow your mind to really share in the wealth of findings your fellow humans have already collected? Too bad Maharaji discourages such learning. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 20:12:27 (EDT)
From: CD Email: None To: Jim Subject: models are models Message: >If you were honestly interested in learning what you could about life and the universe you'd avail yourself of all that your fellow humans have learnt, i.e. science. Science is one aspect certainly. The magazine shelves are huge even at the UCSD engineering library. Does it end or what is even the scope of that huge amount of information? >So why not allow your mind to really share in the wealth of findings your fellow humans have already collected? Too bad Maharaji discourages such learning. No problem with using the mind to fathom the complexities of what exists. Just don't get lost in the complexity of the mental models. They are models. The reality is something else which we attempt to approximate. The simple square root of 2 demonstrates a very fundamental dilemma. A nice simple mix of a couple 1's and the simple Pythagoras triangle theorem and the result is already beyond what can be written. Apparently the implications of the theorem were unpopular at the time. People like to feel that one day they can conquer the unknown. But they can't do it with ideas because of ... Well you know what I was going to write. >It's the classic question: do you want to worship the mystery or solve it? 'A mans got to know his limits' You still have to bite that mango to know the flavour. CD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 20:50:40 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: CD Subject: Oh fuck off with that shit Message: CD, Give it up, man! Science knows things, all sorts of things. Things about how we live, how we tick, what our brains are really all about, stuff like that. If you don't want to spoil your wet guru dream, help yourself but don't think you can hide behind the square root of 2 with any dignity. Yo' butt's showing, boy! I know this -- that if you took a focussed tour through evolutionary studies, brain science and maybe some historical stuff on gurus and hindu theology, not to mention the specific roots of the hamster himself, your faith would be seriously shaken if not destroyed. 'Square rooot of 2' my ass. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, May 24, 1999 at 11:29:00 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: CD Subject: models are models Message: No problem with using the mind to fathom the complexities of what exists. Just don't get lost in the complexity of the mental models. They are models. The reality is something else which we attempt to approximate. How's about this? Without the mind, we'd be zombies, unable to experience or comprehend anything. Reality is how we model it. Without the models there would be no reality. There would be no fantasy. There would be nothing. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, May 24, 1999 at 11:51:29 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: CD Subject: more on models Message: Mind you, I'm suggesting that EVERYTHING is a model, not just our thoughts, but everything we see, feel, hear, etc. Our thoughts are just models of the models, you might say. For example, let's say you see a car passing by. That's a model created in your visual cortex. Your thoughts are a model of that model, 'A car is passing by'. Our thoughts are merely a means of explaining and comprehending. What kills me is how such an essential aspect of the survival of our species, our ability to think, became so villified. Do you think its because in order to believe the things that Maharaji says, you have to abandon all sense and reason? I think so. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, May 24, 1999 at 18:59:59 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Jerry Subject: more models, Bingo! Jerry(nt) Message: nga[e09rgu] Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, May 24, 1999 at 19:17:49 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Absolutely, right on! Message: Jerry: This statement is IT: 'Do you think its because in order to believe the things that Maharaji says, you have to abandon all sense and reason?' YES, YES and YES again! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 20:11:55 (EDT)
From: watcher Email: None To: Gail Subject: The programming is very deep Message: you have one...MJ-bashing. Do you live for that? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 20:37:12 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com To: Gail Subject: Get angry, Gail Message: I'd advise you to get angry with Maharaji and the members of the cult who still mouth his falsehoods. Get angry because you have been tricked into a most abhorent scam for a long time and the premies will try to make it sound as if it wasn't an insidious little scam. You know there's nothing worse than having a thief steal something from you and then get lectured by the thief's accomplices about how you shouldn't worry about it, stay cool and feel peace. Like Maharaji didn't wreck people's lives and turn their head inside out, almost for life! You should hate Maharaji and his trip for all of that. There's no use in pretending to be nice about it. The bastard conned you out of your life for his own selfish ends and you have every right to despise him with every fibre of your being. Despise him because he is a hypocrite and his loyal minions, mere fools who vacantly mouth the hypocritical spewings of a false master. Jim is correct in what he says. Steer clear of the heartless premies who pretend they know about love. Stay with regular non premies and you will find that the programming will diminish. The sick thing is, is that Maharaji and his unimaginative and very boring premies (the interesting ones left years ago) have the gall to claim that their trip is about love. That's the blackest lie to have cast a shadow over our lives. There's no love there. If you ever meditate and are away from Maharaji's influence then you'll see the trip for what it is. Much ado about nothing. Because if you ever feel like meditating and get into it just a little, you'll see that such a personal thing has got NOTHING whatsoever to do with Maharaji, his philosophy or the brainless morons who come here and start spouting their premie truths to you. You can have YOUR OWN philosophy and do whatever you want to do. If you wanna do some medi then fine, if you wanna go for a drive then fine, have a laugh meet a friend and forget that bastard who filled your head with so much severe crap. See the whole trip for what it is, Gail. A whole heap of stinking, festering lies just about some meditation. It's a scandal and an outrage that you were tricked into the nightmare. Tell them to go fuck themselves with their empty parroting of Maharaji's big lies. This world is a swings and roundabouts place. Maharaji's world is a slide down to nowhere, though. Life and relationships are always uncertain just as our 'experience' of knowledge always was. Hey that's life babe. Take some chances and always be ready to go out on a limb. There's good feelings and help there if you need it. Rather than trying to contemplate some inner experience, forget it and get out there and live. We were not meant to be so self absorbed and wrapped up in our own navel. There's hardships to be found in life but there's love too. And the love aint where Maharaji and his premies are, that's for sure! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 20:47:19 (EDT)
From: Darth Vader Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Get angry, Gail Message: Steer clear of the heartless premies who pretend they know about love. Stay with regular non premies and you will find that the programming will diminish. Feel your anger Gail. Feel the power of the dark side that grows within you. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 23:33:16 (EDT)
From: Luke Skywalker Email: None To: Darth Vader Subject: Get angry, Gail Message: Feel your anger Gail. Feel the power of the dark side that grows within you. Hey, Dad. Do you want my light saber up your ass? Then shut the fuck up. Anger is a necessary emotion for working your way through things. The trick is to not become too indulgent in it. When that happens, the dark side of the force takes over. But you already knew that, didn't you? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 14:35:52 (EDT)
From: Nil Email: None To: Luke Skywalker Subject: Get angry, Gail Message: Do you want my light saber up your ass? Then shut the fuck up. Are you making a pass at me sailor? You are clearly an example of someone who's really been able to control their anger. Look Luke, you don't know shit about 'the dark side' or 'the force'. Maybe you agree with Jim and your uncle that it's all hocus pocus and you would be better off forgetting about all that Jedi mumbo-jumbo. You see, it's all too easy for people like your uncle and Jim who don't understand something to call it bunk. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 17:32:29 (EDT)
From: Luke Email: None To: Nil Subject: Get angry, Gail Message: I am a student of Obiwan-Kenobi AND Yoda, and YOU want to tell ME about the force. You have some nerve. And just who is this 'uncle' you're talking about? As for Jim... beware Vadar. The force is with him. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 20:55:30 (EDT)
From: A loyal minion Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Get angry, Gail Message: Despise him because he is a hypocrite and his loyal minions, mere fools who vacantly mouth the hypocritical spewings of a false master. There is nothing false about a full heart Dave. Just so happens that there is an inner world; and there is a love within you that never lets you down. Maharaji brought that to MY attention and continues to remind me about how sweet and real that is. If you say there isn't... I'll just have to stand up and tell you you're wrong. Or do you even know what a full heart feels like...? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 21:04:28 (EDT)
From: watcher Email: None To: Gail Subject: No, be happy! Message: 'The bastard conned you out of your life...' Sir Dave Hey, you got saved didn't you? I mean saved from the ravages of this terrible man, now you have the rest of your life to enjoy it anyway you want, right. Right? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 21:12:12 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: watcher Subject: I will be happy! I need to Message: learn how again. Read the start of this thread: The programming is deep. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 21:40:25 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com To: Gail Subject: The parrots have squawked Message: I see my post brought out a brace of parrots. Their squawks do surely reflect what I was saying. I mean, there's this guy who reckons that Maharaji's drivel about having a full heart is something unique to premies. God, man have you ever lived beyond the confines of your guru? Of course I have felt deep and abundant emotion which you Maharaji parrot as a 'full heart'. And when I feel this is has got zilch to do with Margarini. Then there's the fearsome Darth Vader who thinks he's being really clever and then there's the other parrot who is pretty forgettable now. Oh dear, I forget what he wrote. Never mind, it's time for bed anyway. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 21:48:54 (EDT)
From: watcher Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: The parrots have squawked Message: Brace? er.. I counted 3 there. Is that a thrice? Or a covey? No thats partridges, and they don't repeat things, so that kinda ruins the joke. Gingko Biloba - good for the memory, but it makes you fart a lot. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 21:49:50 (EDT)
From: Glen Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: aww come on Dave. Message: you have to admit that Darth Vader thing was funny. I could almost hear Vader's voice when I read it. I'm still laughing about it. but not at you oh no, sorry :| :\ :} :) :)) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 21:56:16 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Glen Subject: Yeah, actually it was Message: funny Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 22:43:59 (EDT)
From: Glen Email: None To: Jim Subject: well ok Message: you made me look again, it was.......................... funny, but it would have been better if he left out the quote of Davids, and stuck with the subject header 'Get angry, Gail' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 22:59:24 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: The parrots have squawked Message: Definitely a keeper expression. :^) :>} :>() Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 05:08:04 (EDT)
From: Mary Jane Email: None To: Gail Subject: The parrots have squawked Message: I'll make you feel good babe. Just heard that 30% of deaths are caused by doctors. Mary Jane Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 05:37:01 (EDT)
From: Mary Jane Email: None To: David Subject: The parrots have squawked Message: I can help you too Mary Jane Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 07:16:55 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Mary Jane Subject: Mary Jane, Suicide is not for Message: me. Doctors or no doctors. Are you implying that Doctors cause suicide? What are you saying? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 07:58:32 (EDT)
From: Mary Jane Email: None To: Gail Subject: Mary Jane, Suicide is not for Message: No, no, no, what I'm saying is that doctors cause all these deaths by their incompetence. Giving the responsibility for your health to someone else should be seen as a last resort. I've seen people do incredible things when it comes to healing ones self, and I would personaly explore every option before putting myself in the hands of the medical establishment, which is after all primarily interested in profit. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 12:11:56 (EDT)
From: Mary M Email: None To: Mary Jane Subject: Mary Jane, Suicide is not for Message: and I would personaly explore every option before putting myself in the hands of the medical establishment, which is after all primarily interested in profit. Hi Gail, I would personally explore every option before putting myself in the hands of the Elan Vital Establishment, which is after all primarily interested in profit. Luv, Mary M (Oye... now I'm parroting the parrots!) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 21:42:09 (EDT)
From: watcher Email: None To: Gail Subject: I will be happy! I need to Message: Hmmm see what you mean. Bit like the blind leading the blind in 2 different directions. Please don't take this as cynicism, but have you talked with your doctor about anti-depressants? I don't necessarily mean Prozac, I just attended a seminar on the subject of depression & anxiety, and there are incredible advances in this field which may help get you through this. Also, and this may sound stupid in the light of all that's been said in this thread, but many years ago when I was in a similar quandry (different cause) I found myself just, well, praying. I figured 'what the heck, if there's no God, He ain't going to hear me making a fool of myself anyway!' Now I won't expand on that story because it will sound like more 'advice' - and you appear to have so much confused advice coming at you from all directions that it's making your head spin. We humans are very resiliant and well designed (evolved?) and have a very efficient repair mechanism built-in. Trust in that, talk to your doctor and just do things that make you feel good. Whether that be shitbagging Maharaji online, practising the techniques of Knowledge (hey, you went through enough pain aquiring them, may as well use 'em if they work for you) or turning your back on the whole shabang (including this website)...do it for yourself and your loved ones. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 22:41:49 (EDT)
From: Mary M Email: None To: watcher Subject: I will be happy! I need to Message: Hi Watcher, I think your post is one of the first I've read where a follower of M acknowledges 'depression and anxiety'. I appreciate that you've stepped forward with such honesty. I just attended a seminar on the subject of depression & anxiety, and there are incredible advances in this field which may help get you through this. I agree there have been major breakthroughs and advances in this field. I've come to a point in my life where I no longer deny that I have a physiological and psychological illness classified as depression. My involvement with M didn't help, it fact it was an escape method further enabling my denial techniques. Back in 'my time of involvement' it was completely anathema to speak of experiencing depression or being in therapy (the old 'in your mind trip'). Somewhere among the threads I noted that Nil (maybe even CatWeasel) mentioned that M recommends therapy for those who need it. Please keep in mind that Gail spent 26 years in this movement. She has chosen to leave. The chastising of those who leave and need to express their feelings of anger, regret, loss and deep emotional pain should not be taken lightly. Maharaji is not, nor will ever be the answer for all seekers or non-seekers. Quite a few of us are not able to follow our therapists advice and write down all these feelings toward M with the intent of M reading what we wrote and acknowledging his culpability on certain issues. After all, as the old song went, 'He was our mother, he was our father, he was our everything...' Those were the times we wanted to <> or believed that he was truly an avatar of peace. So close, yet always so far away. Why? I'm still trying to figure out if the Dettmers, Delaskis, Grosses, Pascottos, Ciullios, Hagans, and 'et als' were sharks preying upon him and the rest of us. Were they using the 'trip' as a method to amass vast amounts of personal wealth. Was he simply a pawn so he could get a few planes and women? If so, that's a mighty tall compromise on his part. Do you think Mata Ji was correct when she said that her son was totally into Maya? Would he sell his soul for the good ole U.S. of A. condition known as 'corporate greed' and in doing so tossing the first batch of cookies into the dumpster with no regard for their value as human beings? In fact, does he value human life at all? Will we ever know? Probably not. Mary Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 23:26:34 (EDT)
From: watcher Email: None To: Mary M Subject: honesty Message: Thank you for your kind words Mary. I've been reading the Forum for quite some time now, without contributing (hence the 'watcher' handle) and I've decided I must be something of an anomoly. I guess, in a nutshell, I consider myself primarily a human being. I've had Knowledge since 1976 and I derive a lot of enjoyment from it. But I've always been a bit of a lone wolf, and even now, I don't socialise with premies. Actually, I don't really like premies, at least the stereotypical ones who seem to bear the brunt of the Forum wrath. I totally empathise with a lot of the feelings experience here, but from a somewhat distanced viewpoint. I saw all the crazy stuff happening 'back then', but somehow managed to hold on to my sanity (and my wallet!). I lived in the ashram but kept my bank account in my mother's name. I kept (and keep) my relationship with Maharaji personal and private, I considered all the wacky Hindu shit going on to be emanating more from the wannabe mahatmas and WPC weekend warriors, than from M. himself. I never considered him to be God, and still don't. And yes, I get depressed and suffer anxiety attacks. I even get lonely - probably blasphemy in some circles - why else would I spend hours reading all your nutty diatribes! (No offence meant!) I'm dismayed when I read all the caustic remarks from premies here. I consider it the worst kind of elitism. And for the ex-p sceptics out there, I'm not trying to suck up, infiltrate, manipulate or apologise for Maharaji. I'm just a bit lonely and enjoying the communication. God knows, I can't talk to most premies without been made to feel 'unclean' because I don't have a sickly smile on my face all the time and punctuate my sentences with deep meaningful breaths. When I read Gail's postings I really did feel the pain she was experiencing, and I just wanted to throw my dime's worth in. The other threads I'm in on - well that's my mischeavous side coming out. So there you have it, hope I don't get terminally flamed from either camp! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 00:12:27 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: watcher Subject: honesty Message: Hi watcher, Nice to hear from you. You kept a secret bank account? I don't get it. Why move in if you didn't trust him? I mean, in retrospect you were sharper than I, I'll grant you that. But.....well, I just don't get it! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 00:49:49 (EDT)
From: watcher Email: None To: Jim Subject: honesty Message: Hello Jim, Phew, you're making me dig back into brain cells which may not necessarily still be there! Well here goes.. Probably a combination of my trying to pursue my own path, even within the realm of Knowledge, and an over-protective mother. I was still fairly young (weren't we all?) and making good money in my chosen profession. I worked very hard and I must admit I resented the idea of handing over my pay check each week, so I didn't. I banked it and had my mother write me one (smaller) from her company as an 'employee'. Being the wonderful mother that she was, she wanted to allow me free rein to explore my spirituality (my dad showed me how to roll a joint) but at the same time create an escape route should it prove to be bogus. All perfectly legal and totally un-holy, of course. The crux of it is, Jim, that I trusted Maharaji, but I didn't trust the honcho premies who were running things. I figured he either didn't know, knew but couldn't control the machine yet, or was stuck in the Hindu philosophy of none of it being real and thus just to be observed as a game. My own reasons for moving in the ashram were twofold: first I fell fowl of Initiator John Knight's admonishment of single premies being little more than 'horny hounds who should surrender their carnal desires' (sic)- bad reason, and secondly, I genuinely thought it would enable me to intensify my experience of Knowledge - good reason? Anyway, I figured an ashram, per se, was a suitable step forward in my spiritual quest (which had begun many years beforehand) and that I was focussed enough within myself to ignore all the bullshit that went with it. Besides, I'd accepted Maharaji as my mentor and wanted to at least have a crack at it. I trusted him enough to know that if I couldn't hack it, I could just leave and it would be fine in his eyes, regardless of what the idiots around me said. Best as I can express it, that's what was going on in my life 20 years ago. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 01:00:09 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: watcher Subject: honesty Message: Watcher, Thanks for that. Wouldn't it be funny if EV, monitoring this site, and having assumed all receivables owing to DLM, sued your duplicitous little ass for the difference between your real earnings and your fake pay checks? Not to worry. We have our own team of lawyers and forensic accountants standing by 24/7 for ex's -- or even marginal ex's -- here at ex-premie control. You're safe here, Watcher. No one will hurt you. Just, whatever you do, don't leave the compound. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 02:27:16 (EDT)
From: Glen Email: None To: Jim Subject: honestly Message: deja vue, I wonder if the matrix is being changed and an A.I. agent is about Fuck the compound, Glen is looking for a phone. Bye..... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 12:53:07 (EDT)
From: watcher aka Rob Email: None To: Jim Subject: honesty Message: Morning Jim Seems stupid using a pseudonym now we're conversing, so just call me Rob. I've got contacts at Court Tv, so maybe if they do sue me, I'll get it put on the network. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 13:01:29 (EDT)
From: Mary M Email: None To: watcher aka Rob Subject: honesty Message: Rob, Glad you're back. I didn't know that ashram premies had to turn their earnings over to EV/DLM. Why and how were people told this was a requirement? The question isn't necessarily just for you. Now I can see why former Ashram premies are really teed off at M. xo, Mare Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 13:14:07 (EDT)
From: Rob Email: None To: Mary M Subject: money stuff Message: Good morning Mary, Well again, the moot point was, who are you actually turning over said money to? In my case it was the 'house father' who was the appointed leader of the household. You know, I can't remember a specific conversation when this was put to me, it was more like something one learnt during the course of being an aspirant. There were these places called ashrams, and a condition of being allowed to live there was that all money earned was communally pooled, and one's own requirements were met from that. It certainly (in my case, at least) wasn't 'sprung' on me after I had made the decision to move in...I knew the score and figured I could play along and not get burned too badly. I didn't stay in too long either - couldn't handle the chastity bit! :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 13:19:51 (EDT)
From: Jethro Email: None To: Mary M Subject: To Mary M Message: 'I didn't know that ashram premies had to turn their earnings over to EV/DLM. Why and how were people told this was a requirement?' It was made very clear that the path was one of chastity(no sex outside mariage), poverty(everything belongs to Maharaji and HIs mission) and obedience (either agya or direction thru HIS mahatmas/coordinators etc). Those who kept their own bank accounts were cheating(I wish I'd cheated). Jethro Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 13:28:39 (EDT)
From: Rob Email: None To: Jethro (jumping in) Subject: ashram Message: 'It was made very clear that the path was one of chastity(no sex outside mariage), poverty(everything belongs to Maharaji and HIs mission) and obedience (either agya or direction thru HIS mahatmas/coordinators etc).' Damn, I failed on all three counts! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 13:36:25 (EDT)
From: Mary M Email: None To: Rob Subject: ashram Message: Rob, Damn, I failed on all three counts! Good. You are now an official member of the Tossed Out Batch of Cookies Club! M didn't realize he used yeast in the original recipe and it would eventually start rising again into a sumptious feast known as the X/3 forum. xo, Mary M Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 13:43:34 (EDT)
From: Rob Email: None To: Mary M Subject: TOBCC Message: Crumbs! You crack me up. Actually, you want to know what's funny? I never got thrown out of the ashram, I got promoted to a 'special projects' house. Very hush-hush. There I got my own car, had a girlfriend - even was allowed to eat icecream any time I wanted. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 14:28:24 (EDT)
From: Crumbs Email: None To: Rob Subject: TOBCC Message: Crumbs, I like that handle so I'll adopt it as my alter handle;-) Help me get this straight Rob. Jethro tells me that one joins the ashram with the understanding that poverty, chastity, and obedience were understood prerequisites. This tells me that young Prempal studied his Baltimore Catechism while a student at St. Josephs elementary and 'maybe' middle school. Apparently if one broke the vows they'd be blessed with the use of a car, sex, unlimited ice cream, and a promotion to a 'special projects' house. Here are my questions: Did you get to use the trailer or backstage bathrooms at outdoor festivals as a perk for being in the 'Special Project' detail? C'mon Rob, don't tease. What kind of Special Projects were so 'hush-hush'? Did you get to forge the golden toilet seat? Was it 10, 14, or 18 carat gold? My personal 'special project' for M was sewing magnificent Barbie Doll outfits for Premlata that outrivalled those worn by Bhole Ji in the LOTU video! Our community had another special project to build a choo-choo train for M's kids to ride around in at the 'Residence'. Then of course I think all of us were involved in the Special Malibu Residence Acquisition project. What a pain in the neck figuring out who to give funds to. The phone tree people should have just printed a flowchart for us. Or at least let us see the nested if: If contributor writes check then do bogus-corporation routine If contributor gives cash then do trusted-money-launderer routine If contributor donates jewels then do harry's-pawnshop-routine If contributor donates inheritance then do ambulance-chaser-corporate-attorney routine Else ! *** Non Contributor ***! Do toss-this-cookie-out-the-window routine End-if End-if End-if End-if You're a good sport Rob! Are you sure you're not just an extraordinary lucky Irish man? xo, Mary aka Crumbs Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 14:58:13 (EDT)
From: Rob Email: None To: Crumbs Subject: ssshhh Message: You're gonna get me busted! Let's just say I was some kind of Interior Decca-rator! Someone's bound to pick up on this thread, should be fun. I don't think the transfer was a result of my indiscretions - so far as I know I was never found out. Well yes, my rebelliousness was a trifle obvious, but it was generally treated with a kindly 'God made us all different' soppy paternalism. I hung onto my own relationship with Maharaji and figured he would find it pretty amusing if he knew. For the record, I'm still hanging on! So much easier without premies around to mess your head up. There were heaps of Special Projects going on then, as now. I think there has always been a tendency for humans to take pleasure in being privy to secrets; witness the elitism expressed in this forum by those who feel superior because they are currently practising Knowledge. But then, in my professional life, I'm constantly coming across 'secrets' in the corporate world too - companies you never heard of, having to sign non-disclosure forms,that kind of stuff, so that in itself doesn't bother me. Actually I've hung around Bill Gates a few times - wanna see devotion? Shit, we're all nihilists compared with the Microsofties! Hey you know those Barbie dolls would be worth a fortune now - if you've any left, put 'em on eBay! And your last point, actually I'm Scottish, but no offence taken! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 13:30:40 (EDT)
From: Mary M Email: None To: Jethro & Rob Subject: To Jethro & Rob Message: Interesting... Thanks for the answers. I wonder how far up the food chain the $$$ went in a situation like the Boston Ashram where there were quite a few 'Old New England' heirs and heiresses? Some of whom are still around, active in the movement, and able to support themselves only because specific criteria were set by their parents after they (the parents) saw where their blue blood 'Blue Chips' were going. Now where is that Real Estate man when you need him to answer a few questions? Or Gypsy, Gypsy, ..... Oh well, Mare Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 07:51:57 (EDT)
From: KB Email: None To: watcher Subject: rewriting history Message: C'mon watcher, you have to reread your own post here and try to see how you are projecting your present view on your past and claiming it is how you saw it at the time. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 13:23:21 (EDT)
From: Rob Email: None To: KB Subject: rewriting history Message: to KB Perhaps you're right. I'm not an adept at cerebral time-travel, so I can't regurgitate my exact feelings and viewpoint from 20 years ago. We're talking about a period covering perhaps 4 - 5 years during which there was an awful lot going on in my life. I was trying to find God, win acceptance in the premie community, get laid and develop my profession - a lot for any young man. All I can say is I'm doing my best to relate what went on back then. Perhaps it would be better to stick to expressing how I see current events? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 16:00:51 (EDT)
From: KB Email: None To: Rob Subject: Hi Rob Message: Well, It is interesting to try to view the past and we are willing to read it. I think you had a lot less distance from the events of the day back then like the rest of us. We were very enthusiastic and hopeful about the prospects of Maharaji doing great wanted things to/for us and all the world. If it WAS possible to actually accomplish peace and harmony amongst people then maybe he would have stood a chance. But it sure seems that we are actually designed in such a way (human nature) that we cannot agree for long about anything. Even groups that are beset by all kinds of enemies find time to squable amongst themselves. Know what I mean? It has been no fun having the dream smashed by reality, but then again, there are some good sides to us being so different and so incapable of some ant or bee like reality of cooperation. Look at the Indians, Hindu's that is, they have been into this meditation stuff but thier societies are bounded by the terriblely devisive caste system. We are stuck! Even maharaji has had a heck of a time getting along with those close to him. It is just human nature and we can find the good in it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 19:10:33 (EDT)
From: Rob Email: None To: KB Subject: Looking back Message: I sometimes wonder if we don't all just get a bit cynical with age. I mean, looking outside of Knowledge & Maharaji for a moment, remember when we used to go on protest marches against the bomb, campaign for Greenpeace, sabotage hunts etc etc. I find myself not being involved in any of that these days. But looking back, I remember the fervour with which I would attend rallies, spread aniseed around to throw off hounds and so on. Was I confused and gullible then? Am I wiser about these things now? What happens to that fire in us as we grow older? I'm being rhetorrical, of course, but I think it would make for an interesting discussion if we were to examine the relevance of growing older to losing interest in Knowledge. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 23:24:21 (EDT)
From: KB Email: None To: Rob Subject: rajaji counts Message: Well, Rob, I am an odd duck in that I feel my breath more now than ever. I try to add on to that, a view that 'I am going to try to treasure this moment with this person I am with' Whomever it happens to be. I lose the attitude faster than I lose the feeling of my breath. As I got older I was still making excuses for prem rawats out of lord character behaviour and it took this forum to help me make the full break. He WAS so adamantly the lord and still plays the role on the side for those that are still caught in his web in that way. I think the breath makes an unfortunate addition to a cult because it is something you can feel inside and so is a bit more real that just a dogma and a mantra. I am reminded of a breath story. Genius Raja ji decided to COUNT how many breaths were in a day and so he actually tried counting. Any western idiot would have multiplied one minutes worth times 60 times 24. That's what you get for quitting school early I guess. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 23:54:34 (EDT)
From: Rob Email: None To: KB Subject: rajaji counts Message: Actually, us western idiots would reach for our calculators! I'll be seeing RJ next week, so maybe I'll ask him to do the math again, see if he's learnt anything. That was a nice sentiment you expressed, about treasuring whomever you're with, I must remember that. It's funny, but when I read all the postings from former premies like yourself, I half expect to see myself reacting, perhaps a la catweasel or shp, but I don't. If that is/was your experience, then what am I supposed to question? Your honesty, your sanity, your spirituality. No - I can only take it at face value, and if that's what you feel, then that's what you feel! It doesn't affect my own feelings, because naturally they are predicated on my own experience. If you figure that the 'Truth' will be revealed when we die, then why waste time stressing over who is right and who is wrong in the meantime? Let's concentrate on helping ourselves and each other have a good time while we wait. If the Truth isn't revealed when we die, it will be because there is no continuation of consciousness, and we'll be none the wiser anyway! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, May 24, 1999 at 00:47:50 (EDT)
From: KB Email: None To: Rob Subject: Rob, Dont miss this key issue. Message: Well, you bring up a good point, why wonder who is right and wrong 'in the meantime'. When I believed Prem Rawat when he said he was the 'master', and the 'pure voice' of (god)say, I found that HE was the outer boundry of my reach towards god or understanding of the issues and realities of life and it's sponsor. You see, HE does not believe there is a self concious thing that exists independent of a body. He (like most guru/buddhist types), do not think that there is an origional intelligence that is self aware outside of themselves. Maybe YOU are in that same boat. I posted the comments about -problems- because we here have a long running talk about wether there is an origional self aware intelligence or not. Where prem rawat and buddhists fit in that discussion is THEY think that ther is a non-self concious 'oneness' that is not an actual reality that they have to contend with. Prem rawat, I can tell you by long term listening to him, does not make any room for those that listen to him to fit a self aware god into thier picture of reality. There is only the 'master'. And his missteps and mistakes are all covered under the 'lila' clause, where YOU are unable to understand 'HIS WAYS'. Since you are a dabbler, and just avoid the things that make you do anything you don't want (at THIS point), in regards to him, you blithly shrug your shoulders and say 'Oh, what the heck, he does have SOME good things to say' and ignore the impact he has on you. The subject I mention above is worth a reread. Do you see where his view of reality is limiting and actually robbing those that listen to him as an authority on life, of the actual reality that exists. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, May 24, 1999 at 21:04:03 (EDT)
From: Rob Email: None To: KB Subject: key issue. Message: I disagree. Even had I not had some 23 years worth of listenening to him, I can pull any video out of my collection at random and find numerous references to God, to the Creator, to a sentient power pervading the Universe and ourselves. I just don't see where you developed the idea that Maharaji has 'no room for a self-aware god'in his teachings. Is it possible that you are dwelling on a few isolated paragraphs which were ambiguous, because I've heard my fair share of those too? I say this also because you did make a rather hasty assessment of my character, as seen in your next-last paragraph. I'll close with a quote from Eric Hoffer: 'The beginning of thought is in disagreement-not only with others but also with ouselves.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, May 24, 1999 at 22:24:26 (EDT)
From: KB Email: None To: Rob Subject: Lock issue. Message: OK, so my turn to apologise, however, you did post about how you spent your early years with m and you had him, premies and the structures and rules at arms length. THAT is what I was referring to saying you picked and chose what you were influenced by. I don't know Rob, up until early 98 I was an avid video watcher and well, how about we continue up top somewhere tomorrow on this subject. I wasn't trying to call attention to your first post to 'I wish', but to help folks not overlook her post. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 25, 1999 at 17:41:23 (EDT)
From: Rob Email: None To: KB Subject: Lock issue. Message: No problemo. Actually, if you see my reply 'Fangs a lot' to Gail posted today, there is a bit of my background which might explain why I am/was a little distanced from premies. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, May 24, 1999 at 21:29:26 (EDT)
From: Mary Email: None To: Rob Subject: rajaji counts Message: Rob, Here's an idea. How about asking Raja Ji to take his brother's place? That'd really turn the tables upside down in premiedom and here on X/3;-) What a fine kettle of fish we'd have then! Contrary Mary Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, May 24, 1999 at 21:38:40 (EDT)
From: Rob Email: None To: Mary Subject: rajaji counts Message: Hey, I'm game for anything! But if you don't see me posting here after next weekend, you'll know it was a bad idea. Are we the only two not watching Ali McBeal? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, May 24, 1999 at 21:56:00 (EDT)
From: Crumbs Email: None To: Rob Subject: rajaji counts Message: Hey Rob, I'm suprised you haven't been 'excommunicated' for being affable with x'ers;-) Are you sure you still get to meet with Raja Ji? Are we the only two not watching Ali McBeal? Maybe. It's also the last episode of 'Mad About You' night. Actually, there is an ebb and flow cycle to the forum. Sometimes we'll all take a break. I go to the river! I'm goin to sleep. Long day of fixing vendor Y2K patches. Isn't it funny how the fix for Y2K makes 1999 a mess? Luv, Mary (saving her crumbs for the doves) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, May 24, 1999 at 22:13:42 (EDT)
From: Rob Email: None To: Crumbs Subject: 'x'-communication Message: 'I'm suprised you haven't been 'excommunicated' for being affable with x'ers' So long as you're still a human being, I'm more than happy to share with you. So many times recently I've heard Maharaji say 'if you don't like this Knowledge, then WALK - the door will always be open if you decide to return'. Never have I heard him say '...and you'll cease to be human beings worthy of anyone's love and compassion.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 03:18:47 (EDT)
From: Jethro Email: None To: Jim Subject: honesty Message: When I moved into the ashram, we were told by m and pams that we must regard anything coming form his coordinators, mahatmas etc as agya(a direction) from him, even if we didn't like it. That was part of the 'obedience' part of chastity poverty and obedience. I have since met quite a few former ashramees that kept secret bank accounts...good for them. I really wish I hadn't trusted so much...but there again if I hadn't it would not have been the 100% things. So to Maharaji and His premies/students/pwks, thank you for teaching me how distrust evrything and to embrace dishonesty. THAT is M's teaching by example. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 13:02:29 (EDT)
From: Rob Email: None To: Jethro Subject: honesty Message: aka watcher Morning Jethro, I was told the same stuff, I just didn't buy into it. Maybe I'm just disobedient. Could you explain 'pams' not sure I know that one. I think the whole ashram thing was essentially as a good idea poorly implemented. They are, after all, a quintessentially Indian concept with many hundreds of years of Hindu culture behind them. To suddenly try to transplant that concept into a Western culture with little or no cultural preparation, was perhaps asking too much? As far as not being able to trust anyone any more, well, perhaps you're right. Another way is to reserve judgement until you are 100% sure of where the other person is coming from. Then run like hell! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 13:14:21 (EDT)
From: Jethro Email: None To: Rob Subject: To Rob Message: PAM is an acronym for 'people around maharaji'. Regarding the ashram, I personally loved the lifestyle at that time. It was what was wrapped around it that killed it for me. I was also influenced alot by Maharaji saying that if he wasn't The Master he'd just go and be in the ashram and live that life. I DID believe what I was told because he said it. PAMS did little more that repeat what they got from being around him. Jethro Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 01:01:06 (EDT)
From: Memphis Belle Email: None To: Gail Subject: It's ok Message: Hello, I have visited this forum from for the past year and have read your posts. And during this time, all of your posts have really spoken to me. Thank you for expressing your thoughts so well because they are just like mine. I don't know if you have read my posts (I don't post too often) but I'm sure they would speak to you as well. I was only part of the 'World of Knowledge' for about 2 years,1996-1998, but even during that small amount of time, I felt anger, betrayal, astonishment, doubt, and on and on. Ofcourse, all the while pretending not to notice these feelings and hiding them from other premies around me. This past week, a friend of mine who happens to be a premie, told me I should go to see M in Florida. Do you want to know what I told him? I said, 'Why should I fly to Florida to feel peace when God is right here with me now?' Do you want to know what he said, since he is programmed after all? He said, 'If you don't stay connected with the 'Master' then you will loose touch. This is one of the three things that he asks of you, keep in touch.' I said,'You do not have to fly to Florida to keep in touch with God. He really is in your heart, not Florida. But you keep flying to Florida, Colorado, Argentina, Canada, and Malaysia. Maybe it's because you are still looking for something.' He didn't say anything. But I'm sure he is still going. It's his life. You see he goes to these programs and listens to M say over and over and over, the same thing, life is a gift, life is a gift, life is a gift. That is basically what M keeps says in the one hour program. And everyone smiles... By now, after 25 years, life is still a gift. OF COURSE IT IS! But also, what Maharaji fails to do, is give GOD a chance. Give God the credit not Maharaji the credit schmedit! Maharaji, clearly wants us to give Maharaji a chance. Big difference. I ask everyone on this forum, 'what are we really after?' I went to Maharaji to find God. I figure that is what everyone does. Right? I left Maharaji, because I don't see God in M and his entourage. I guess I have kind of rambled on, Gail, but do you understand that we don't have to fly anywhere? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 07:27:03 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Memphis Belle Subject: You betcha, Memphis Belle! Message: There will be no flying for me. I thought it might be fun to try to gain entry to a cult program. I was refused at Christmas time. Thanks so much for your post. I remember you from last year when we were both questioning at the same time (last June or July). You said, 'You still have doubts after 24 years?' I'm so glad you are doing well. Really, I'm ok. It's just that I have to discover what I like to do, that's all. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 16:16:48 (EDT)
From: Nil Email: None To: Mary M Subject: I will be happy! I need to Message: ...in doing so tossing the first batch of cookies into the dumpster with no regard for their value as human beings? In fact, does he value human life at all? Where do you get this shit Mary?? It shocks me how much you guys believe only what you choose to believe. There are so many more than appear on these web pages who have spoken of Maharaji in terms of nothing but understanding, kindness, compassion, and empathy for the human condition. I have seen this myself countless times... as well as seeing a sterner side when dealing with some people. How do you rationalize away this input??? You have no idea what he deals with on a daily basis, or what the scope of his work is. Nobody has been tossed away, and his help is available to anyybody who wants his help. But remember: he has always said there were pitfalls along this path... you guys I guess were out at the food tent buying your yogurt when he said that. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 16:45:21 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Nil Subject: Nil, how could that be? Message: Nobody has been tossed away, and his help is available to anyybody who wants his help. Nil, Do you doubt that many people who eventually leave Maharaaji start by having some sincere question, doubt or problem that they try approach him regarding? Do you have any idea how many people here alone say they tried doing that but only got stonewalled? We're talking sincere, humble entreaties for some help from their guru. Sometimes repeated several times but all to no avail. Did you remember this when you wrote what you wrote above? I mean, we're talking questions. Forget about criticisms. We know what he thinks about them. You read that quote of his from India in March or April where he says that the best way to deal with criiticism is to ignore it? The interesting question here is where Maharaji draws the line between questions and criticism. I know it's kind of moot in that he doesn't answer either one. Still, it kind of interests me. What do you think? For example, if someone wrote Maharaji asking how come he closed the ashrams after spending a fair bit of time urging the members to never leave, would he consider that a question? It is, but I tend to think he'd consider it criticism. What do you think? And god forbid that anyone should ask him about his brother, the other Guru Maharaj Ji. Question or criticism? What do you think he'd say? Please think about this and give me something better than what some premies might say, i.e. 'I don't know what the hell he'd say. Why don't you ask him?' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, May 24, 1999 at 19:36:45 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Nil Subject: Yes, I was Message: Nil: 'I guess were out at the food tent buying your yogurt when he said that.' Yup, I guess I was. By the way, where did the profits from the food tent go? Oh yeah, he flushed them down his gold toilet(as the story goes) because there wasn't enough love in them..... BWAH HA HA HA HA HA HA HA! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 25, 1999 at 16:31:15 (EDT)
From: Nil Email: None To: Mike Subject: Yes, I was Message: Yup, I guess I was. By the way, where did the profits from the food tent go? Oh yeah, he flush them down his gold toilet(as the story goes) because there wasn't enough love in them..... BWAH HA HA HA HA HA HA HA! Come on Mike... don't be childish. If you want to sincerely discuss this stuff try tp refrain from making senseless statements like this... 'kay? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 25, 1999 at 18:14:44 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Nil Subject: Ah, come on Message: Nil: Your own statement was pretty flip, wasn't it? Food tent????? Seriously, NO.... everytime I went to a program of any sort, I NEVER, repeat NEVER visited ANY of the trinket tables. I sat and sat and sat and sat thru every bit of satsang, no matter who was presenting it. I certainly sat thru every word that issued forth from M's mouth. So, given that, what's your question...seriously? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 12:28:32 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: mishkat@gateway.net To: Gail Subject: the meaning of life - to Gail Message: Dear Gail - I was really touched by your post. You wrote: Now, I really do believe that relationships, career, hobbies, etc. are a waste of time. Everything is temporary and hardly worth the effort. Nothing lasts. I now lack personal movitation and must drag myself to things that might be enjoyable. You see, when I surrendered the reins of my life to MJ, it slowly sucked the life out of me. All my personal interests died. I have none. Almost everything I did had an ulterior motive. A good education meant I could make more money and see the Lord more ('If I were a Guru Maharaj Ji.'.) My life was not lived for my own interest. I did not operate on a free level for a long time. I did many things against my will because they were good for my soul. What soul? How many decades will it take to come away from this? Have any of you ever felt this way? I have felt this way A LOT - basically all my life - but not because of following M. I've felt this way mostly when I didn't have some kind of purpose for my life, or when I'd just lost something that had given me a purpose. However I think that many people who have never even heard of Maharaji feel this way when they lose something that has given their lives some purpose: when their kids grow up and leave, when they get divorced, when they retire, when they lose their job, and so on and so forth. I do think there's a certain amount of truth in the statements 'nothing lasts' and 'everything is temporary'. 'Why am I here?' is a scary question. A lot of people avoid thinking about it by doing things that give their life a temporary purpose: having children, working at demanding jobs, trying to amass money, trying to survive, and so forth. I think it's really brave of you to be contemplating this question now - many people don't do it until the moment of death. I don't have any easy answers for you because I'm still dealing with the same questions. I think following Maharaji gives people an 'easy' answer and one that's comforting to them. Losing that surety as to 'why you're here' is very difficult. The one thing I have found to DO that really has helped me deal with these questions is to try and 'give back' as much as I can - to make some small effort to make the world a better place. (This is why I started following M in the first place - I thought he was making the world a better place. I left because I realized that somewhere along the line, that purpose had been subverted). I realize that the feelings of 'nothing lasts' and so forth can make our mall personal efforts seem futile - so does contemplating the enormous amount of pain in the world. But I do feel better when I feel I am doing something positive, no matter how small, to help other people, or other beings, or whatever. You wrote below that you'd made the decision not to commit suicide - that you'd made the decision to keep living. I do think that a lot of people contemplate suicide when life seems meaningless - I know I have. However, making the decision to stay alive means that somewhere in there you feel that there is SOME meaning to your life - although you didn't choose to be born, you have chosen to stay alive. I think this is a good starting point to work from. Again, Gail, I really admire you for having the courage to wrestle with these fundamental questions. I believe that all of us need to 'face the void' at some time in our lives, but many people don't have the bravery to confront it the way you are doing. Thanks for being so honest. Lots of love, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 13:50:40 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Katie Subject: Here's something which lasts Message: The help you give to others, the benefits that you put into the world. James Watt did something which lasted and which people still enjoy now over one hundred years later. Florence Nightingale did something which lasted, so did Neil Armstrong, Christopher Columbus and Doctor Christian Bernard, Martin Luther King, Walt Disney and many more. These are just famous examples but I believe that what you put into the world has a lasting effect upon many people for many years to come and truly its effects can be said to go on indefinitely. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 15:49:45 (EDT)
From: Nil Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Here's something which lasts Message: Christ Dave, what fairy tale do you read at night to fall asleep to? If that's the sum total of your offering, why don't you go back to sleep! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 16:01:36 (EDT)
From: A Sir Dave of the world Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com To: Nil Subject: Here's something which lasts Message: Well I liked it and that's all that matters. If you're too ignorant to add something to the conversation then I suggest you keep quiet. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 17:32:50 (EDT)
From: Nil Email: None To: A Sir Dave of the world Subject: Here's something which lasts Message: Okay tinker-bell, I'll leave you to you nice thoughts. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 21:07:25 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Nil Subject: You have something better Message: to offer as a philosophy, Nil? Going to that lasting place of peace within is NOT a philosophy that brings meaning to people's lives. Don't you agree with what Sir D said, Nil?You don't think we gain meaning by giving to others and to the world, and in how we are remembered when we die? This (Sir Dave and Katie's) message of 'give something' is MUCH more inspiring then the message 'go to that place within that will never let you down'. When I was thoroughly engrossed in meditation as a lifestyle I was NOT happy. I am much happier now and I only meditate when I feel like it. The difference is that I am happy with myself & with what I am doing with my life and that did NOT happen by meditating. I don't see how you can pooh pooh what Sir D has just said about giving something back. You seem kinda cynical, a quality I've noticed among premies. I think M encourages cynacism in fact, and the result is someone like Gail with a ton to give but a lot of regret for having wasted her time on a guru with a cynical anti-human message. Now she has to construct a philosophy for herself that will give her life meaning because that bastard Maharaji gave her a cardboard substitute for a philosophy. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, May 24, 1999 at 02:21:30 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Helen Subject: You have something better Message: I couldn't agree more, Helen. When I was a premie I felt continually at odds with the general Maharaji philosophy of anti-humanness. It left a bad taste in my mouth all of the time. And reading what premies write here reminds me that they have encompassed this (Maharaji's) attitude into their lives. Premies don't act like they are experiencing peace and love. They act like they are simply taking on board Maharaji's philosophy. Mere parrots of the master. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, May 24, 1999 at 15:01:28 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: 'Night of the Parrots' Message: I think you could write and direct a new horror movie a la Alfred Hitchcock, 'Night of the Parrots'. Can you imagine parrots attacking squawking premie rhetoric? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, May 24, 1999 at 20:04:59 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Katie Subject: the meaning of life - to Gail Message: 'Why am I here?' is a scary question. A lot of people avoid thinking about it by doing things that give their life a temporary purpose: having children, working at demanding jobs, trying to amass money, trying to survive, and so forth. Katie, maybe that's all there is. I, personally, think a lot of people have a hard time accepting this. To me, there is no purpose to life. It's just something that is. Trying to find out why you were put here is a wild goose chase. The best anybody can do is find what it is that turns them on and from there just go for it. Don't let anybody or anything get in your way, including yourself. Life only sucks when you're in a funk and don't know how to bust loose from it. When you're doing something you love and working toward something you really want to achieve, life has a way of becoming a very invigorating experience. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 12:33:51 (EDT)
From: The Ultimate Victim Email: None To: Gail Subject: The programming is very deep Message: Congratulations Gail! With that you have now risen to the position as the Ultimate Victim for the 90's. Isn't it wonderful to be able to blame someone else for your pathetic life. Now you don't have to take any responsibilty for any of your actions. I'd say you are so evolved as a blathering 90's kind of girl, you could earn a permanent seat on the Oprah Show. You know the mantra don't you.....POOR ME, POOR ME, POOR ME. Now doesn't feel great? You can cry and wine on Oprahs shoulders. She loves a good victim. Hell, being a victim in 90's is very chic. Anyway...congrats, and keep searching for the perfect scapegoat. Love and kisses Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 12:47:32 (EDT)
From: Mary M Email: None To: Gail Subject: The programming is very deep Message: Hi Gail, Thought I'd warn you to wear at least an SPF 35 block when UV posts. He had his frontal lobotomy done in 1989 by Mahatma Icepickerachand. M Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 13:05:57 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: The Ultimate Victim Subject: Hi UV! Message: I wasn't complaining. I was merely stating a fact. Over time all my personal interests were eroded and the interests of the cult became my focus. Now I have neither. Your handle, 'THE ULTIMATE VICTIM,' is an interesting choice. You are the ultimate victim because you don't even know the pickle you're in. I am looking for somethings to be interested in. You, on the other hand, only have the interests of the cult. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 14:00:21 (EDT)
From: Rob Email: None To: The Ultimate Victim Subject: The programming is very deep Message: Feel better now? Prick. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 17:43:10 (EDT)
From: Bryan e s (bes) Email: None To: Rob Subject: The programming is very deep Message: Hi Rob, So what do you think of Prem Pal these days? Your life? bes Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 18:33:43 (EDT)
From: Rob Email: None To: Bryan e s (bes) Subject: The programming is very deep Message: Love 'em both. :P Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 21:02:41 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Rob Subject: Why, Rob? Message: Rob, Why do you say you love Rawat? I mean, you've lurked here for a while, apparently. Say it's true that he let Jagdeo continue to tour as his 'saint' knowing full well that Jagdeo was into molesting kids a bit. That's just an example, of course, of allegations that, if true, mean Maharaji's something of a snake. So why do you say you love him? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 21:54:49 (EDT)
From: Rob Email: None To: Jim Subject: Why, Rob? Message: Lurked? As in a shadowy Bogart standing in a dark alley, cigarette glowing in the corner of his mouth, silently watching the happy faces in the bar across the rain-swept street...Sorry, you got me a dramatic mood then. Harumph! Jagdeo molesting kids hmmm, news to me buddy. Which newspaper did you read that in? It's somewhat ironic that, in a forum where people discuss their views on reality, you should choose to open with a hypothetical situation. Did Jagdeo molest any kids? Did Maharaji appear to condone it by not dismissing him? Let's continue that line of discussion when there is some hard evidence on the table. Anyway, back to your actual question, why do I love Maharaji? Same reason I love anybody else - my experience with that person, having good times, being glad they're a part of my life, and so on. I don't know if you are married or not, Jim, but suppose you were asked why you loved your wife? I'm sure you could answer honestly and openly. Then supppose your reasons were then picked apart by the questioner, scrutinised and invalidated? Suppose you were told that one of your wife's employees was a suspected child-molester, and that by refusing to fire him, she was undeserving of your love. How would you deal with that situation? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 22:21:55 (EDT)
From: I wish Email: None To: Rob Subject: Why, Rob? Message: I wish you men would shut up. I wish you could experience the shock, the helplessness, the feeling of falling, falling, falling into the darkest corner of one's being to block the horror. I wish you could look into the abysmal darkness of his eyes as he placed his hands, his mouth on my body. Nowhere to run, nowhere to hide. Paralyzed by fear and confusion. I wish you could go to that place for one moment. I wish you were brave enough to defend me. I wish you weren't so stoned back then be it drugs or M. You might have noticed but you probably wouldn't care. Would you? It didn't matter then to you. It doesn't matter now either. I wish you men would shut up. I wish you men would shut up. I wish you the terror. I wish your guru the terror. I wish my innocence was not stolen. I wish.... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 22:33:38 (EDT)
From: Rob Email: None To: I wish Subject: wishy washy Message: A spokesperson for the Make A Wish Foundation, no doubt. That was like one of those Public Awareness commercials, you know, where some bonehead chick breaks an egg with a frying pan, then relates it to drug-taking.... You were, I take it, assuming the persona of a molested child? Where in any of my postings do you deduce I am insensitive to these dreadful crimes? Please paste them into your reply. Believe me, if you have a valid point, I will be the first to concede. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 22:55:15 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Rob Subject: Sexual improprieties abound Message: Yes, according to very reliable sources, Jagdeo did molest children and very young teens. Padarthanon also tried to force himself on a few women who were practising the art of celebacy at the time (not that they would have been interested in him anyway). KK can fill you in on some of these details if (s)he is willing. Apparently, MJ admonished Jagdeo much to Jagdeo's surprise. The reputation of MJ being able to arrive at your house as 'a fly on the wall' came from that. Then there is the pie-throwing incident that almost cost the reporter his life. That mahatma was quickly spirited, via the Mission's help, to India. MJ knew about all these things. In fact, many of those so-called saints we revered, were nothing more than perverts in white robes and fur hats. I personally know that Mahatma Adaranand Ji began to massage a girl's breasts with his feet, no less, during a group meditation-- some saint. Gunther's Mum and Selene can fill you in on Jagdeo. I won't repeat the stuff because I wasn't there. If you have time, a look at the LOTU video made by PBS might be enlightening for you as well. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 23:35:23 (EDT)
From: Rob Email: None To: Gail Subject: Sexual improprieties abound Message: They certainly do - in all walks of life. Look at Catholicism, for instance. Without delving into online newspaper records, I'm sure you would agree that there are many recorded incidences of priests being arrested for the whole gamut of sexual offences. However, and here's my dime's worth, should that turn people away from the Pope? How many people do you suppose have abandoned their religion after reading the Daily Smut's expose? Perhaps the way his Holiness (the Pope) deals with the offender would identify him as a good or bad manager, but would anyone question his spirituality? Probably a bad example, since most Catholics wouldn't dare question the Pope period. But you get my drift. I don't doubt there have been many people in Maharaji's organisation who have seriously embarrassed, compromised and generally pissed him off, but are we to condemn him for not dealing with the situation to our liking? I personally won't, for the simple reason that I am not in possession of the facts. Do I believe the gossip in anonymous postings in a fairly biassed Forum? If I confront Jagdeo personally, is he likely to 'fess up? You see my dilemma? My relationship with Maharaji has to be based on my own experience, and of course that could include court transcripts, if they exist, but not, I'm afraid, media stories. I'm what you might call 'on the inside' of that industry, I know how truths, rumours and fabrications are blended into a lucrative bit of scandal. I've been trying to focus on reality and truth all my life, I can't get lost in what-if's, would I's or he-said, she-said etc. That's why I do my best to stear clear of premies, ironically! They are as full of it as his opponents. I'm loathe to quote Maharaji (cf 'parrots'), but if you'll allow me just one, it would be the lotus staying above the mud thing. Trouble was back then, most people didn't recognise their peers as being part of the mud! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 23:56:01 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Rob Subject: Sexual improprieties abound Message: I see it differently. I came to believe that these saint who blew into town were the next best thing to MJ, himself. They were like the apostles to me. MJ was offering the ultimate experience. Why would such things even cross these people's minds? We're not talking about forgetting the lentil stew on the stove. This is upfront, in-yer-face abuse of people who believe you are someone special. Premies gave their best and had every right to expect the best from their Lord and his ambassadors. I never saw the priests as apostles. I never saw the pope as the Lord. MJ should have been able to pick the best people to be his mahatmas. He was the omnicient, omnipotent, omnipresent being in person. Remember: 'I always have to keep a poker face.' Why? He knew everything that had or would happend to a person. He knew our names from past lifetimes. He knew everything. Notice that we don't hear any gossip of this nature with his Western instructors. They wouldn't dare. MJ would even know if they consumed meat. The Indian boys, though, they knew better. They knew this god business was an old Indian trick. This was their ticket out of India and their chance to be treated like royalty. They knew that their breath would not be snuffed from their bodies for sexual transgressions--so they succumbed to their lower, worldly nature. They knew god was not interested in their activities. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, May 24, 1999 at 00:08:33 (EDT)
From: Rob Email: None To: Gail Subject: Sexual improprieties abound Message: When and how did you find out about these sexual abuses? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, May 24, 1999 at 01:41:52 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Rob Subject: Sexual improprieties abound Message: Shawn Devine was the woman who had her breasts molested during group meditation with Mahatma Adaranand Ji, in London, Ontario. I haven't seen her since August, 1977. She moved away and quit the cult. This is not great, but not as serious as some of the other poster's experiences. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, May 24, 1999 at 11:28:54 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Rob Subject: Sexual improprieties abound Message: Rob: YES, if the POPE didn't permit these guys to be prosecuted, then he would be an accomplice, in my book. My wife IS catholic and, as a matter of fact, she would leave in a heartbeat if the pope got in the way of an investigation; whether it was attempted murder (ala fakiranand) or sexual (jagdeo/padarthanand). So.... your basic premise is incorrect....many catholics DO question the pope on these issues! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, May 24, 1999 at 21:25:52 (EDT)
From: Rob Email: None To: Mike Subject: Sexual improprieties abound Message: Fair comment. Now taking the correlation a step further, should that situation occur, what would your feelings be toward those catholics whose love for and forgiveness of the Pope prevented them from leaving? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 25, 1999 at 10:56:54 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Rob Subject: Sexual improprieties abound Message: Rob: Fair question and I'll respond in the same vein. I would consider them 'enablers,' at the very least. Kind of like the individual that gives an alcoholic the keys to the liquor cabinet (bad example, but it's early in the day....:-) You can only 'forgive' someone that actually 'asks' for forgiveness. If the pope were to hide or otherwise conspire to hide a crime on the part of his minions, he would not likely ask for forgiveness and, therefore, there should be none (IMHO). In M's case, as directly concerns fakiranand and jagdeo, he was much more involved than that. He hasn't once asked for forgiveness for his lapse of judgement (if not criminal neglect and/or direct assistance in hiding the activities of these criminals). Make no mistake, fakiranand and jagdeo are CRIMINALS in every sense of the word. They should have been treated as such, but M's direct intervention prevented their prosecution (or defrocking/banishment, at the very very least). This is pretty serious stuff to me, Rob. I guess you can easily see that. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 25, 1999 at 18:02:41 (EDT)
From: Rob Email: None To: Mike Subject: Serious stuff Message: I agree, Mike, and I respect your viewpoint. I'm not being flippant by drawing comparisons with catholicism, I just find it helps everyone think more clearly if we take one step away from talking about Maharaji directly, because of all the hurt that people are feeling. It helps me, too, to be objective, rather than blindly taking M's side. There is a lot of stuff which has apparantly gone on which is not common knowledge among the ranks. I think earlier on I asked if there were any police reports filed. That, more than anything, would make useful reading if disseminated. What time frame are we talking about here? Is it recent, or years ago? Bottom line - I have a 13 year old son myself. If anyone hurt him in that way, I would personally castrate that person and anyone who protected him. This has nothing to do with Knowledge, with Peace, with being in or out of a 'cult'. This is a criminal act against a minor and if crimes have been committed, then the American public needs to know about it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 25, 1999 at 19:05:23 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Rob Subject: Serious stuff Message: Rob: Thanks and I appreciate your candor; it's refreshing. The hindu 'hammer throw' occurred back in the early days. Yes, a police report was filed and the individual that got hit lived thru the experience. I'm not sure what his name is/was, but he's the guy that threw the pie at M's face. Fakiranand and another premie were responsible for the 'hammering.' M spirited fakiranand out of the country to avoid prosecution, even though he said that he was holding him for questioning by the police. As for the antics of Jagdeo, G's Mom has been more than forthcoming with her first-hand info. I don't believe any police reports were filed because these were YOUNG girls at the time and I'm sure he intimidated the heck out of them (as often occurs in such cases). G's Mom made it abundantly clear that M knew about her incident, but he never took any action against Jagdeo. This is where I hold M complicit (sic), personally. You know, I can deal with the fact that he really didn't give a tinker's dam about me, but when it comes to kids..... That's another matter entirely. Dammit, he KNEW and HE didn't do a thing to stop it, prevent it or prosecute it! Obviously, you will need to speak with the principles to get the first-hand story, but that's it in a nutshell.....as disgusting as it is. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 25, 1999 at 20:26:01 (EDT)
From: Rob Email: None To: Mike Subject: Serious stuff Message: Thank you for that, Mike. It's a tough subject, I think I need time to digest it and see how I feel about all that. I'm wondering if we're not causing undue pain here to those involved, by opening up old wounds? I feel I should let others decide whether to continue this discussion, so I'll bow out until invited to respond. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 23:40:55 (EDT)
From: KB Email: None To: I wish Subject: Ahh, Rob, ............ Message: The person 'I Wish' is just a real person here that was a victim of jagdeo and we know others. She is not speaking as a persona and if you ever read her previous posts or her Journey, you would not be flip about this issue. It is real and not a joke here. We are not in the realm of heresay here. Especially on this topic. Tread lightly on the obvious sensitive subjects. This is a forum of real people. You may do battle with some, but each is different. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, May 24, 1999 at 00:01:11 (EDT)
From: Rob Email: None To: KB Subject: Ahh, Rob, ............ Message: Point taken and apologies offered...but could have been avoided if I had been first made aware of the situation, perhaps. Has this been brought before the authorities? I would be interested to know, so I don't put my foot any deeper in my mouth. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, May 24, 1999 at 01:13:35 (EDT)
From: KB Email: None To: Rob Subject: The Lady Innocence. Message: She may talk about it furthur, we don't push her, she IS a sweetheart, it did get reported to Mr rawat, more than once, You know, I never realized how much that affects a child (which she was at the time). I was at a meeting once where all the people there were parents (in my case, a step parent) of boys in a disturbed childrens center. I was frankly stunned when it was revealed that every case there had a sexual abuse background. We were the only ones there whose child was not a confirmed victim of sexual abuse. (although we had reasons to suspect it). You didn't get to be in that center because of sexual abuse. It only was a place for those kids that were haveing a hell of a time getting along with others. Behaviour issues. I had no idea that sexual abuse had that kind of effect. I thought, 'well, it is a short experience and perhaps no damage is done for long' or something like that. But ALL the others there were confirmed cases and the results these BOYS were having were severe. I have 4 boys here and only he was a suspected victim (of his father) and one night he actually came out with one sentence admitting something happened to him in that area and following therapists directions, I didn't push him on it. One other boy here is an escapee of a heroin mom and the other two are mine (or the mailmans). All this talk may get the issue out again and I don't know how much she want's to talk about it. I read her post and I do really feel for her because again, she is a terrific lady and it is just unfair to say the least. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, May 24, 1999 at 14:17:22 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: KB Subject: to KB and Rob re sexual abuse Message: Hey guys - K.B, I happen to know that 'I wish' is NOT G's mom, who always posts under her own name. And Rob, if you'd like further information about Mahatma Jagdeo, please read 'G's Mom''s Journeys entry (under ExChanges in the site index). Sexual abuse by mahatmas is no joke - it has happened and it was covered up. Regardless of whether you believe Maharaji knew or not, it's a serious issue that needs to be addressed, so that people who were abused can get support. Take care - Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, May 24, 1999 at 21:49:49 (EDT)
From: Rob Email: None To: Katie Subject: No joke Message: I wholeheartedly agree that sexual abuse of children is no joke, and believe me, I do feel like a real shit for appearing to turn it into one. I had no idea those issues were commonly addressed here. I asked if the matter had been brought before the police, not by way of a challenge, but because I would make a point of reading any public records on the the incidents. I am in a position to confront those 'at the top' and would not hesitate to do so if I had something concrete to back it up with. I hope you don't think it heartless to ask for more to go on than the postings on the Forum? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, May 24, 1999 at 23:21:08 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Rob Subject: No one kept the DNA panties Message: or the foot prints on the breasts. These incidents were reported at the time to MJ himself. At that time, the Lord was a young snot-nosed kid who didn't handle the situation well. Do you think Jagdeo babysat Premlata and Daya? No. He had more important things to do such as buggery and fornication with children. (:-{}] Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, May 24, 1999 at 23:25:12 (EDT)
From: Correction Email: None To: Gail Subject: with other people's children! Message: The pedophiles ought to be totally castrated and have their hands removed. There's no sense in wasting good prison food on them. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 25, 1999 at 11:44:46 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Gail Subject: Ahem, Gail? Message: Do you think Jagdeo babysat Premlata and Daya? No. He had more important things to do such as buggery and fornication with children. (:-{}] Gail, I don't think anyone's alleged quite so much. My understanding is that Jagdeo was more into pawing young girls, feeling them up, maybe rubbing against them on his lap, that kind of thing. I believe that's what G's-mom reported. Although I also kind of recall her saying that the other woman -- who I've also communicated with directly -- intimated that Jagdeo might have done worse with some of her friends. Not to say that there weren't mahatma rapists and seducers. For instance, Trebinanand raped a girl in Regina, Saskatchewan. It drove her nuts for a while and she carved a cross into her forehead. (Believe it or not, her sister still loves the hell out of Maharaji and sees no possible chain of responsibility there!). And what's-his-name in Vancouver had a whole harem in hisd basement including an American east-coast housemother he flew up for personal service. But what's so siginificant about Jagdeo is that his behavoiour, while maybe not the gravest on a scale of harms, was almost certainly known by Maharaji who did nothing to take him out of circulation. Rob, if you're so well connected, why don't you ask Maharaji about this? Ask him if it isn't true, as Gail's explained, that he knew of Jagdeo's tendencies for years. Yeah, right..... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 25, 1999 at 20:43:52 (EDT)
From: Rob Email: None To: Jim & Katie Subject: TBC? Message: Thank you both for your input. Somehow I missed hearing about Jagdeo's exploits when they were current. What time I spent with the man did give me the feeling he was a little creepy. It is a sad reality of the human species that there are such predators among us. The salient point, of course, and the one that concerns me, is how much Maharaji knew of this, and why, if he was fully informed, he did nothing? Before I go any further with this, I need to know what the general concensus is: Will it benefit those involved to have these questions answered, or, as I said in another posting, will it just cause more pain to those who have already suffered immeasurably? I don't feel qualified to answer. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 25, 1999 at 12:30:47 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: mishkat@gateway.net To: Rob Subject: to Rob Message: Hi Rob - I read your reply to Robyn above, and I can understand why you appeared insensitive in your post to 'I Wish'. Thanks for explaining, and for caring. As far as I know, the incidents that I have heard about were NOT reported to the police (I don't think you're heartless for asking this). As you probably know, many cases of child sexual abuse are never reported to the police - the feelings of the victimes are often similar to those of rape victims, who often never report the rapes to the authorities because of shame and fear. You can read G's mom's Journeys entry, and see that she did tell people who were in a position of authority in Maharaji's organization. This SHOULD have been enough, IMHO. At the time of the abuse, G's mom was a premie and did not want to embarass Maharaji publically. In the other case that I know of, the women were very young (around seven or so), and were told by their premie parents that they were very lucky that Jagdeo wanted to spend so much time alone with them (the incidents happened during the seventies in a premie house in which Jagdeo used to stay periodically). I am not sure if the kids told their parents what was going on - as you know it's VERY difficult for children to talk about these things, especially when their parents basically do not want to hear it (and this was further complicated by the fact that the abuser was a mahatma and the parents were premies). Anyway, nothing was reported to legal authorities. By the way, the woman who told me about these other incidents does not wish to come forward - even anonymously on the forum. She's gotten a lot of counseling and basically gotten on with her life. I hope you can understand and respect this. G's mom has been brave enough to tell the story of her own abuse both on the forum and in her Journeys entry, and she's taken a lot of flak from some of the premies who post here because of it. I don't know if this is a satisfactory answer to your question. Basically I think that people should be able to talk about rape and sexual abuse on the forum without being pressured to go to the police or take legal action. It's hard enough for people to talk about it in the first place, and I know that many people never do. Take care, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, May 24, 1999 at 01:48:52 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: I wish Subject: Why, Rob? Message: I wish that had not happened to you. I have been violated myself, but not in the cult (that's what drove me to the cult). It really hurts when you've been betrayed by someone you think you know. In your case, it was worse. Our all-powerful, all-knowing Lord should have prevented this. At the very least, you'd think he would have been able to pick out some real saints to shuffle around. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, May 24, 1999 at 10:55:25 (EDT)
From: Just a man Email: None To: I wish Subject: All men are not insensitive. Message: I can empathize but never know firsthand your nightmare. Who were your protectors then? Did they do anything, or was the illusion so strong about Jagdeo being a holyman sent by The Holyman to strong to question? Time to heal, I wish. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, May 24, 1999 at 21:53:13 (EDT)
From: bes Email: None To: Rob Subject: The programming is very deep Message: just wondered if you would admit it, and how. Less is good. You may last for a long long time, months, with this character. 'Watcher' would have never worked, to much like Xan and Traveler or some other 'meaningful' name. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 15:25:45 (EDT)
From: barney Email: None To: The Ultimate Victim Subject: you say the same thing Message: Buddy, you say the same thing again and again. Glad you got it all worked out and can slam people who are having problems. Or maybe that is your problem. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 21:10:37 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: The Ultimate Victim Subject: The programming is very deep Message: You're mean. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 21:33:06 (EDT)
From: Crumbs Email: None To: Helen Subject: The programming is very deep Message: Hi Helen, I think UV is watching much too much television. My hunch is he's the same individual that spoke of Rosie O'Donnell in a post below. He could be a PR Droid for the mighty M, trying to finegle a way for an interview on Oprah or Rosie to tout the latest and greatest iChange web site complete with Compassion Mugs and Slick Swan Cards for Nirvana Tricksters. Yes, he's mean. Thank God we're in cyberspace. Can you imagine this ambassador of peace with a gun? Now where did I put that 'Sun Block'? Luv, Mare (BTW - liked your advice to Gail) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, May 24, 1999 at 15:06:33 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Crumbs/Mary Subject: The programming is very deep Message: Which advice did you like best: 'grab life by the balls' or 'talk to a rabbi'? (; Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, May 24, 1999 at 16:48:29 (EDT)
From: Mary M Email: mem_mcgraw@msn.com To: Helen Subject: The programming is very deep Message: Both! With the exception of grabbing Bull Gators & Bisons! Actually, it took me about 6 months to find many of the Judaic historical books I've been interested in. I've never spoken to a Rabbi. I once had a job for Jewish Family Services (back in 73) where I would go to the homes of elderly women and help them prepare for Orthodox holidays. I distinctly remember one woman who was reaching up to get a silver platter and I saw a number tattooed on her. In my niavete (sp) I questioned her about the tattoo. For the next six months she told me about her life and her faith. Quite a lasting impression. Luv, Mare Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, May 24, 1999 at 19:51:51 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Mary M Subject: The programming is very deep Message: It's amazing how many Jews lost whole families in the concentration camps, and how they managed to rebuild lives and keep going. Family members are now being separated and killed in Kosovo,& now it is winter there..I don't know how the refugees will make it. On a brighter note, I liked your advice to Gail also, quite inspiring! Love Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, May 24, 1999 at 08:10:24 (EDT)
From: Catweasel Email: schmuck To: The Ultimate Victim Subject: The Self-Pity is very deep Message: Couldn't agree more ,the only thing you need therapy for Gail is bothering to contribute to this site. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, May 24, 1999 at 09:03:04 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Catweasel Subject: Explain it to me, Catweasel. Message: This whole thing was based on an experience, not a belief, right? I have chosen to examine the whole thing. I am left with a lot of beliefs, but not much experience (except for dreams of MJ). Even that--why am I dreaming about MJ? Why can't a person just walk away from it all. BTW, I used to imagine that I loved MJ so much my soul was going to fly out of my mouth. I certainly didn't feel that way all the time, but I did feel that. I felt he and K were the ultimate. I did hang in for a long time. All it did was make me realize I could never do what he asked. It was impossible, and I was the loser. It is very frustrating, year after year, to be no closer to all the things I was promised. It was always fantastic during and right after a program. But then, I would be more depressed than ever with the day-to-day mundane things. How come? I tried. I dragged myself to everything. I grew tired of the videos. Half of them were recycled excerpts. I saw EVERYONE of those videos until last June, 1998. I hated meditation but did it. I used to count the days on the calandar that I had done meditation every day. Sometimes, I wouldn't meditate for months until the guilt and self-loathing would hook me again ('You have been given the four aces. If you don't do it this time, do you think you will ever get another chance?) I felt dreadfully guilty if I didn't go the the video, didn't practise, didn't dedicate, and didn't go to lots of programs. I was also afraid. MJ told us of many pitfalls along this path including soul damnation. If this is the true path, and someone is trying, shouldn't it be getting easier? If this is living, then I'll take the living dead (people without K according to MJ). MJ's way made me feel guilt, fear, and worthless. I deserve more than that. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, May 24, 1999 at 10:49:26 (EDT)
From: Catweasel Email: Step into the silence To: Gail Subject: Catweasel.My Perspective Message: You were far to hard on yourself.Me, I practice most days but if I miss ,its not the end of the world.Someone quite close to me suicided last year.Only young, a premies child,and he died a hard death.Now thats the end of the world; final,complete over.I would'nt have a clue what comes after death.I've seen a lot of death.For me my practice of Knowledge lets me touch my life in a soft and beautiful way.So dont sweat it,it's not mean't to be a chore.These days I dont go to many videos because of business commitments.Its not a problem.M simply asked that you stay in touch .How you choose to do that is your perogative.Like a friend asking you to stay in touch.Not like a court order.You're laying a lot on M .Maybe the mechanism for feeling guilt, fear and a sense of being worthless came first.Theres just no need to feel like that.The person ,M,just doesnt judge you like that, no matter what your new friends here tell you.Chill out Gail ,take it easy,its just not that intense.It is that intense here and it always will be.Without it this site has nothing,no reason to exist so every-one fans the flames.The quiet place is better. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, May 24, 1999 at 16:39:07 (EDT)
From: Zac Email: None To: Catweasel Subject: Catweasel.My Perspective Message: Cat: So what your saying is Gail should have figured out 20 years before Maharaji did, that the heavy devotional trip is bogus. She should have only attended programs sparsely, stayed away from the crazy robotic premies, never given more than $50 bucks a year, meditated once in a while when she felt like it and generally ignore every talk the master gave. Unfortunately for many of us the damage has been done. Course the posters here on the X page don't want it to happen to anyone else. So why don't you write a formal paper on how to practice knowledge for us. When to ignore the master, when to listen, how to politely ignore the local fundraisers, How do you dodge service opportunities that turn into 18 hour days, etc. Also what is your take on Phase II? What should the premie who continues to practice be aware of so they can keep their marbles for 21st century. Do you foresee any U-turns that may trip up the premies of today? I could go on but you get the jist. Please be specific and help out. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 25, 1999 at 03:48:03 (EDT)
From: Catweasel Email: None To: Zac Subject: Catweasel.My Perspective Message: No ,because your an ignorant moron! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 25, 1999 at 07:18:44 (EDT)
From: Zac Email: None To: Catweasel Subject: Catweasel.My Perspective Message: Well your alot of help. Why don't you tell me what you really think? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, May 24, 1999 at 23:13:15 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Catweasel Subject: Even if I wanted to go back Message: the big door has closed for me. As you know, despite having an invitation from Elan Vital Canada, I was refused entry to the Toronto satellite program last December, 1998. I've cooked my goose (guru) in this case. I haven't tried, but I'm sure I would not be welcome to videos either. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 25, 1999 at 03:53:57 (EDT)
From: Catweasel Email: None To: Gail Subject: Even if I wanted to go back Message: Be practical, if your going to be inflammatory and disruptive ,its understandable.If thats not your intention then validate it with some-one who you know takes that resposibility.Lets face it ,if you play up at abaseball game you get turfed ,why would it be any different there? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 25, 1999 at 07:20:22 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Catweasel Subject: Even if I wanted to go back Message: I've never been a disruptive influence in a public place. Why would are start now? I know, dispite our banterings, you have a pretty good feel for what I'm like. If I came to the door where you were doing security, you'd let me in--seriously. You're ok. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 25, 1999 at 09:33:25 (EDT)
From: Catweasel Email: Intuition To: Gail Subject: Even if I wanted to go back Message: Yes I probably would and in doing so I'd be trusting you wouldnt let ME down.You dont know how close to reality you sometimes sail here.In the past I've often helped out in such situations.I'm not religous,nor am I interested in inflexibility;which is why I'll flame a lot of the Bozo's on this site.I think its called common sense.M said in Malaysia recently that the door is always open,that if you want to leave ,you can ;and if you want to come back,the door is still open,walk in,your always welcome,no questions asked.One day soon it will be me on the door. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, May 24, 1999 at 12:56:08 (EDT)
From: Don Email: None To: The Ultimate Victim Subject: The programming is very deep Message: You are an insensitive asshole. Where did you get so much hatred and anger? Did you pick that up from Maharaji, or have you always been that way. Do you have relationships with people? I mean that lasted more than 15 minutes? Are you in prison? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 12:57:45 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Hmmm.......?? Message: The Visions page advertises this 'Special Offer'. For only $5 you get the: Introductory Package - Video Format 'This package consits [sic] of the 6 minute video The Possibility and a short introductory publication. With an elegant montage, soft piano music, and excerpt of Maharaji speaking at introductory events, The Possibility provides a brief history and introduction to Maharaji and his message.' My questions are: 1) Why so short? What's that all about? If you've got some sort of presentation to make, some info to share, why the tease? Hm? 2) Why charge? Not for shipping, that's extra. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 13:12:08 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Jim Subject: Hmmm.......?? Message: Jim, what the text doesn't say is 'this format is just right for those awkward propogation moments. Convenient for slipping into the VCR when you have a few friends over for cocktails and you're not sure how to broach the subject of knowledge. The new agey muzac and the hypnotic montage sequence will give your guests just the right introduction to the subject of Maharaji and knowledge. No messy satsang about 'rotten vegetables', no embarrasing Krishna costume or LOTU references. Maximum smoothness will transpire as you re-fill your guests' gin and tonics and wait fot them to say 'So, Tad, so Muffy, tell me a bit more about this guru of yours. Looks intriguing.'' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 12:26:20 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Shlock! Message: The Visions Gift Shop is now open. I ordered one of everything except these two items from the 'For Fun' collection of which I ordered five each: Teleidoscope 'Back by popular demand, these teleidoscopes offer a unique view of your world. Called a Teleidoscope because there are no moving parts, a faceted crystal is set in a variety of exotic wooden scopes. Made in the Ozark mountains of Arkansas, these are available engraved in five languages: English, French, German, Italian and Spanish. The inscription reads: 'What you are looking for is within you.'' [For $39 you get a wooden tube with a fixed prism in it.] ****************************************************************** 'Swan' Playing Cards 'A traditional deck of playing cards printed with the 'Swan' artwork. Ok....deal!' [$10. Note the brilliant touch of premie wit.] Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 12:33:18 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: Mata Ji'd be rolling Message: in her grave if she saw this: Swan Glass Coffee Mugs 'A wonderful reminder at the start of your day. Two swans are etched on one side with the inscription, 'Only by Compassion,' on the other.' [$18 - what's next? Shri Hans ashtrays?] Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 12:48:44 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek Email: None To: Jim Subject: Fasten seatbelts - Phase II Message: Great! Lord of Maya has christened Phase II and let it loose on his followers. If there is a Phase II then there must be a Phase III - I can't wait! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 12:59:01 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: heller@bc1.com To: Roger E. Drek Subject: Fasten seatbelts - Phase II Message: Roger, Could you please email me now if it's convenient? Thanks, Jim Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 13:04:37 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Jim Subject: Mata Ji'd be rolling Message: Compassion? This word never issued forth from M's lips when I was a premie. Anyone ever hear this? Must be a new marketing buzzword Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 18:10:07 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Helen Subject: Compassion Message: Oh yes, he said it was only by compassion that he was around even. It was a slogan for one of the Long Beach Programs, I think. Everything including the cups said, Only By Compassion--his that is! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 07:11:42 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Gail Subject: Compassion Message: That was after my active premie days. I missed 'the compassionate era'. What a joke. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 15:53:20 (EDT)
From: Mary M Email: None To: All Subject: Compassion Mug Message: All, Does anyone know of a single act of compassion on M's, Marolyns, or the Org's part? Receiving K does not count. Mary Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 18:08:17 (EDT)
From: TD Email: None To: Mary M Subject: Compassion Mug Message: Does anyone know of a single act of compassion on M's, Marolyns, or the Org's part? He once cut short his South American tour to fly back to see Marolyn as she'd just had an aneurism and been rushed to hospital... See, underneath all that megalomania and selfishness and corruption, there is some compassion after all...... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, May 24, 1999 at 18:09:03 (EDT)
From: Zac Email: None To: Jim Subject: Scotch 'Cognac' Glasses Message: Myself and a buddy hemmed and hawed at the very fine scotch glasses at Long Reach, in the end we passed because we didn't want to be thinking of the Guru while we were embibing. I bet Catweasel has a full stock of these fine glasses. Keeps him on his toes. Did you know that he 'knew' Maharji was just kidding all through Phase I. The guy's a frigging genius. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 17:23:12 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Jim Subject: What the Visions Address? Message: What's the enjoyinglife address, too. BTW, can I please have that LOTU VIDEO. I promise to return it. I'm going to send a copy to TVO. I will send you the Holi Video. My e-mail isn't working. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 10:43:58 (EDT)
From: Blue Bird Email: None To: Everyone Subject: The Seventies to Nineties Message: Premies, You continually admonish us about the past. Let me remind you that M and his cronies were actively funnelling your funds all along. Following is info of interest concerning the President of Elan Vital, Linda Gross. Quite a straw woman all along. Blue Quantum Incorporated Type: Corporation File Number: 6439-1978 State: NEVADA Incorporated On: December 15, 1978 Status: Dissolved Corp Type: Regular This corporation is not in good standing. Resident Agent: CROWELL, SUSICH, OWEN & TACKES (Accepted) Address: 510 WEST 4TH STREET CARSON CITY NV 89703 President: LINDA L. GROSS Address: 5321 DERRY RD. SUITE G AGOURA HILLS CA 91301 Secretary: TERESA A. YINGLING Address: 5321 DERRY RD. SUITE G AGOURA HILLS CA 91301 Treasurer: KATHIE THOMAS Address: 5321 DERRY RD. SUITE G AGOURA HILLS CA 91301 Following is the re-org of Quantum Incorporated. Apparently Linda passed the torch. Quantum Incorporated Old Name: Quantum Leasing Corporation WITHDRAWAL 06/24/1992 <---- Ninety Two kids TITLE: VP NAME: MARGULIES, ALICIA I. 11900 BISCAYNE BL, S-200 MIAMI, FL TITLE: DP NAME: GLIEBE, KATHLEEN M. 1900 BISCAYNE BL, S-200 MIAMI, FL TITLE: VD NAME: POTTER, P. D. 11900 BISCAYNE BL, S-200 MIAMI, FL TITLE: S NAME: YINGLING, TERESA A. 299 W HILLCREST DR S212 THOUSAND OAKS, CA TITLE: T NAME: BALE, JOHN K. 299 W HILLCREST DR S212 THOUSAND OAKS, CA TITLE: D NAME: JACOBS, ROBERT A. ONE CHASE MANHATTAN PLZ. NEW YORK, NY Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 19:00:20 (EDT)
From: Liz Email: None To: Blue Bird Subject: The Seventies to Nineties Message: What kind of business is Quantum? I knew Peter Potter from the old days. Regards, Liz Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 08:01:35 (EDT)
From: KB Email: None To: Liz Subject: The Seventies to Nineties Message: It handles the jet. And it used to handle the 707 owbership Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 20:22:45 (EDT)
From: watcher Email: None To: Blue Bird Subject: The Seventies to Nineties Message: Not sure I get your point?? Do you have any notion of how many failed businesses restart? Are all their respective presidents, ceo's etc ipso facto crooks? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 09:50:31 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: watcher Subject: The Seventies to Nineties Message: The point is, why does he need a leasing company of premies for his jet. Why not just say it belongs to Elan Vital. Where are they getting the money, to buy the jet, to lease to Elan Vital, to provide for MJ, to do his good work, AND LIVE IN THE HOUSE THAT JACK BUILT. It is the same with the foreign currency exchange racket. For the last Amaroo, people had to send their money in pounds to England. From there, it was transferred to the Australian dollar. Why? They made a non-declared profit--that's why. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 03:20:04 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Everyone Subject: M's PR did a great job! Message: Check Yahoo! Elan Vital has changed! and actually now really is an 'organization'! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 03:31:33 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: It's even more than that! Message: It's also this: Arts/Humanities/Philosophy/Personal_Pages/Personal/Meaning_of_Life Jeez, Meaning of Life is now an Art! Hey, it's a philosophy, too. I thought it was an experience and not a philosophy or a religion. Phase II, baby! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 09:14:19 (EDT)
From: Sister Soulfire Email: None To: Roger E. Drek Subject: It's even more than that! Message: Roger , I see the House of Drek was listed in the 'opposing views' section of that link. People will click on the opposing views, click on House of Drek, and read the filthy smut of the CORN. They will become hot and their tingly parts will become bothered and more susceptible to the ways of the devil!! Repent now Roger!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 20:25:59 (EDT)
From: watcher Email: None To: Roger E. Drek Subject: It's even more than that! Message: Perhaps in the absence of an experience, that's exactly what it does become? Perhaps they all started that way? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 00:51:19 (EDT)
From: Liz Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Happy's Journey Message: Dear Happy and all, I have just read your journey for the first time and really enjoyed it. My husband did too. The other that I forgot to mention was that we were both inspired by Huxley's Doors of Perception. I suppose it was the drugs that did it for him. I look forward to your email. Thanks, Liz Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 15:27:31 (EDT)
From: Happy Email: Happy_102@hotmail.com To: Liz Subject: Happy's Journey Message: Thanks, I'm glad you enjoyed it. Actually, now after reading the forum for some months, I've learnt so much more about M and his scum, that I almost feel like rewriting my journey, or writing a continuation. I thought I was over and done with the whole thing some 15 years ago. Starting to read ex-premie.org last December revealed some scars which were not fully healed yet. It was such a relief to meet people who had been into exactly the same thing, and to be able to follow their process. Cult programming is really dangerous. I've just finished a book by Rick & Helen Larsen (two Australians) called Cult Encounter. It was really good, I highly recommend it. At the moment, I am particularly upset with cults: I have a 25-year old daughter, a really brilliant kid, who has joined a cult, for some years now. (I have two daughters, and the other is an absolute atheist, who reads and likes Skeptical Inquiry). The cult-daughter lives in another country, doesn't want to tell me anything about the cult, not even the name! She avoids all contact. It's some kind of spiritual yoga, some mix of different things. I can't do anything about it. It's a horrible situation. So, I really hate cults right now. BTW, I want be able to read the forum until next Thursday, so if anybody has comments, I won't read them until then. You may also email me if you wish. Happy (Happy_102@hotmail.com) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 21, 1999 at 22:39:37 (EDT)
From: Blue Bird Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Who Is Tom Hagan? Message: Hi All, Does anyone have information on Tom Hagan i.e. premie, lawyer, indian chief? He's listed in the Colorado records as the Vice President of Elan Vital. He's also the administrative contact for Visions International web site. Just Wondering, Blue Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 03:10:04 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Blue Bird Subject: Who Is Tom Hagan Message: When I was involved in EV (up to 96), Tom was Visions Intl.'s head. He was living in Thousand Oaks, and working everyday (paid) at Visions office. I've met him there, and at every program where Visions had sales. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 21, 1999 at 21:12:49 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: freedom@gtn.net To: Everyone Subject: Challenge to all Premies Message: First, this is the ex-premie forum, so why don't you go to a pro-Guru Margarine place if that's the jargon you're looking for. If you want to make sense of it all, consider these two basic premises that keep you glued to the lotus feet--a) he is the Lord and b) K is the divine knowledge of god. Check out http://www.adidam.org. Bubba Free John says the same things and even uses the same vernacular that Guru Margarine once did. Read it. He's the Lord, too. You can practice the same techniques, move into his ashram, listen to his satsang, and kiss his lotus feet. He's even changed his name and the name of his organization like MJ has. It's the same trip. I dare you to say you don't believe he's the Lord. Some of you allude to that fact, but I bet you can't officially put it in words. Come on. Do it! Say it! Shout it! Repeat after me to the beat of the human heart. Maharaji's not the Lord. K is just a meditation that is taught by many so-called teachers including Bubba Free John. If MJ is not divine, than his techniques are not necessarily knowledge of God. The collective high feels really good, BUT ......... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 21, 1999 at 21:50:49 (EDT)
From: Zac Email: None To: Gail Subject: Who is Guru maharaji? Message: Yeah Gail, I want to see some action on this point. Cause your right it's the lynchpin to the whole trip. Come on Nil, CD, SHP, Catdung, etc. etc. Cause if you believe he's God almighty we're wasting our time even posting to you. Let's cut to the chase on this and save ourselves some time and typing. Who is Guru Maharaji? and...... Is this something you know or did you read it somewhere? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 21, 1999 at 22:20:23 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Zac Subject: Column A or column B? Message: It seems there are premies who do indeed think he's the Lord. They should, with just a little Happy New Breath, be willing to share that 'truth'. It's the others who aren't really sure about what they believe but know that he just might be divine who bristle at these sorts of questions. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 21, 1999 at 22:58:20 (EDT)
From: Tami's Sister Email: None To: Jim/Zac/Gail Subject: Column A or column B? Message: He send replies to letters on the ethers, an inner sense of agya wired in my brain He is my breath, the wind beneath my wings, in that place inside it never rains I don't know who he is but I'd follow him straight to hell, He is the Lord, I feel sorry 4U if you cannot tell. Oh and Jim, how could you dis Melanie, she's my inspiration --California Redwood Forest, the intellectual sister of Tami Rainbow Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 21, 1999 at 23:00:14 (EDT)
From: CS Email: None To: Zac Subject: Who are you? Message: When you know who you are, you know who everybody else is. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 21, 1999 at 23:14:11 (EDT)
From: KB Email: None To: CS Subject: Who are you? Message: When you have a concept about things, you have a concept about things. Doesn't make it true. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 21, 1999 at 23:16:11 (EDT)
From: CS Email: None To: KB Subject: When you know who you are... Message: you know who everyone else is. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 21, 1999 at 23:39:54 (EDT)
From: KB Email: None To: CS Subject: Lewis Message: Try backing that up with a few more sentences. Lots of folks have a view of themselves and it is based on thier limitations and influences. I say the same goes for you. Most that claim god-realization ignore the reality of thier actual condition and state. Actually, show me one that doesnt fit that catagory and then 'most' will have meaning. Right now it is a typo and should have read 'ALL'. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 21, 1999 at 23:49:33 (EDT)
From: CS Email: None To: KB Subject: 'When you find out who you are Message: beautiful beyond your dreams' -Incredible String Band Are you a male? Are you a female? Are you old? Are you young? Are you rich? Are you poor? Are you from _____? Or Are you from _____? And on and on and on Same as it ever was. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 00:33:25 (EDT)
From: kb Email: None To: CS Subject: CSLewis Message: Ok, you won me over. Who I am is someone who can make the day of a kid turning 7 tomorrow. And amidst all the things that happen I can choose the best options again and again. Beyond that, there MUST be a self aware intelligence that operates because of the nature of problems. NO one escapes them and no one has a completely successful life. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 08:05:51 (EDT)
From: CS Email: None To: kb Subject: All depends how you define Message: your terms: problems____________ escape_____________ success_____________ Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 12:00:26 (EDT)
From: KB Email: None To: CS Subject: All Message: Howdy CS, I've noticed how everyone is plagued by defects that come up and sabatoge thier goal of a perfect life. No matter how they define it. That is no minor issue I say. Can you think of anyone that has edged around the sentry that tries to get in the way? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 09:11:39 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: kb Subject: Bill, Bill, Give it up already Message: Beyond that, there MUST be a self aware intelligence that operates because of the nature of problems. NO one escapes them and no one has a completely successful life. Either that or keep trying............. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 11:51:06 (EDT)
From: KB Email: None To: Jim Subject: Your a little early on this. Message: That is not a response Jim dear, There is no Dawkins book that hits this subject and provides a DNA based viewpoint. Granted I havent typed much about it but until CS drifted by no one was poking at the premise. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, May 24, 1999 at 10:17:51 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: CS Subject: Who are you? Message: CS: I know who/what I am. I'm a collection of molecules that happens to be conscious of other collections of molecules. YES, you are right, when I... ahem... discovered this, I instantly KNEW who/what YOU were/are, too. Sorry, you might 'think' that you are some ethereal being trapped in a physical form, but it's much easier than that. You aren't trapped, 'physical' IS what you are! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 10:45:52 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Premies Subject: Not one premie can answer? Message: Why can't any of you answer those two sinple questions? Look at that other site. See that grotesque man being adored the way we adored MJ. See the same myth being perpetuated--the same SATSANG, SERVICE, MEDITATIONM, AND DARSHAN (how would you like to kiss Bubba's feet--his devotees love it just as much as you love kissing your beloved's feet). Why doesn't anyone have the guts to LOOK AT IT! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 20:58:26 (EDT)
From: watcher Email: None To: Gail Subject: Not one premie can answer? Message: Excellent question. Problem is, I doubt there is a human on the planet who can answer that, because the answers to both 'a' and 'b' presuppose that one knows who God is. I say that because how can one state with confidence that so-and-so is NOT God , or that Knowledge is NOT God's, without knowing who God actually is? Assuming that someone out there could stand up and say they know who God is, how do the rest of us mortals know whether he/she's right or not? So it all boils down to what we believe. Belief! Dreaded curse of religions, cults & lawyers. My beliefs? I do not believe Maharaji is God. Actually I know I can say that with a certain amount of impunity, because if it turns out (when I die, say) that he is, then I know I'll be forgiven for saying that. Or is that just another belief? See what happens when you create your own belief system - gets very confusing. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 17:14:46 (EDT)
From: CS Email: None To: Gail Subject: Challenge to all Premies/Gail Message: Gail, Silence from premies on your questions does not necessarily connote: 1) cop out 2) stupidity 3) brainwashing 4) fear Take Mary's invitation, go to Florida if you can. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 17:37:01 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: CS Subject: Challenge to all Premies Message: No, CS. You're not dumb. You just aren't being totally honest with yourself. Quite frankly, I know who MJ is--a 41-year-old man with a god business to run. It is inconsequential who he is to you as far as I'm concerned. MJ has definitely changed his image. New people are never told the old LOTU stories. Funny how they rarely leap to the LOTU conclusion and leave soon after K. You, on the other hand, know exactly who he is--The Lord of the Universe. MJ even plays instrumental versions of Arti to remind you, the old-timer of exactly who he is. You are unwilling to consider any other possibility. Meet people in other cults. They have all the answers, just like you. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 18:06:07 (EDT)
From: CS Email: None To: Gail Subject: Challenge to all Premies Message: Gail, I don't recall professing my belief in who Maharaji is to you. You assume alot, my dear. Do you know anyone who has not changed their image to some degree in the last 20-30 years? Since he's in the spotlight, when he makes a change, it's magnified very much. Ask yourself this: If you had that kind of attention on you, would there be grounds for someone scrutinizing your every move and word to accuse you of being a hypocrite, fraud, liar, or any of the other things you accuse him of? I think that's a fair question. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 18:42:07 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: CS Subject: May I? Message: Do you know anyone who has not changed their image to some degree in the last 20-30 years? What's the context? See, Maharaji always claimed to be anyone but just 'anyone'. Tell me, please, what meaningful 'image' change can there be for a guy who speaks of himself as follows: 1)Who is Guru? The highest manifestation of God is Guru. So when Guru is here, God is here, to whom will you give your devotion? 2)Guru Maharaj Ji knows all. Guru Maharaji is Brahma (creator). Guru Maharaji is Vishnu (Operator). Guru Maharaj Ji is Shiva (Destoryer of illusion and ego). And above all, Guru Mahraji is the Supremest Lord in person before us. 3)I have come so powerful. I have come for the world. Whenever the great come,the worldly oppose them. Again I have come and you are not listening. Every ear should hear that the saviour of humanity has come. There should be no chance for anyone to say that they haven't heard of Guru Maharaj Ji. Those who have come to me are already saved. Now its your duty to save others. Shout it on the streets. Why be shy? Like now he's just a 'pretty high manifestation of God'? Or maybe he's only Brahma and Vishnu now but has decided to drop the Shiva? Or maybe he wants everyone to understand that he hasn't come for the whole world, just parts of it? Explain yourself, please. What image change? Since he's in the spotlight, when he makes a change, it's magnified very much. Ask yourself this: If you had that kind of attention on you, would there be grounds for someone scrutinizing your every move and word to accuse you of being a hypocrite, fraud, liar, or any of the other things you accuse him of? Depends. Again, what's the context? If I'd set myself out as the Lord and all that shit and had actually tricked people into trying to 'surrender' their lives to me, there sure as hell would be grounds for someone to scrutinize my every move. I think that's a fair question. And I think that's a fair answer. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 20:21:32 (EDT)
From: CS Email: None To: Jim Subject: Pull up a keyboard... Message: Jim, Do you believe in God? Do you believe in the concept of 'Lord' in the first place? That concept is based in historical context and adulterated by religions. The term 'Lord' comes from the English referring to the keeper of the keys to the breadbox, if you would. The keeper of the Larder, as it was called, where food was stored. Let's not get hung up on words here. So if the Lord is the keeper of the breadbox where the food is, that must refer to something inside of us that he can help us access, the food for our souls, the Knowledge. All the other stuff is there if you want to mess with it. This plane is frought with paradox. But if you want the food it's there and he shows people how to access it. Premies and ex-premies alike attest to it. The man never said his mortal body, personal actions, or any other part of his life was 'perfect', as far as I know. People have gotten hurt and blamed him for it. I didn't always get to my kids in time when they were toddlers and fell, and once one of them clocked himself royally on the edge of the coffee table and had two black eyes and a bump in the middle for days. People looked at my wife and me on the street like we were bad parents, I could see it in their eyes. I almost bought into the guilt. But then I realized that old cliche is really true: Shit happens. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 20:55:01 (EDT)
From: Rahab Email: None To: CS Subject: Pull up a keyboard... Message: CS, Do you believe in the concept of 'Lord' in the first place? That concept is based in historical context and adulterated by religions. The term 'Lord' comes from the English referring to the keeper of the keys to the breadbox, if you would. The keeper of the Larder, as it was called, where food was stored. It seems that you are taking the concept of Lord and limiting it to the English context. Your context is correct concerning MJ - a human ruler - period. On the other hand, there is the concept of Lord spoken as a substitute for the ineffable name of God. Hebrew - Adonai (my Lord) Phoenician - Adon (Lord) I concur MJ is the Lord of the Larder. Adonai - never was and never shall be. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 21:09:54 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Rahab Subject: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Message: I love it! Lord of the Larder! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 21:37:47 (EDT)
From: CS Email: None To: Gail Subject: Gail needs reading lessons. Message: The word LORD look something like this: L'ARD. Not what you said Lord of the Larder. That's just your bias talking, but getting it out is therapeutic, so let it fly! it was all encompassed in one word. I feel the Force is strong in you Gail. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 21:29:43 (EDT)
From: CS Email: None To: Rahab Subject: Guess who hides out in the Message: Larder, playing cosmic hide and seek with each its most remedial of creatures (humans) on the most intimate of levels in the hope of getting through to us....that's right! You guessed it! Adonai! Or Adon for all you Phonecians. And the Master, who is also our elder brother or sister on the way, gets what must be the most incredible gig a human being could get. He gets to reveal God's hiding place to his brother and sisters who are in the game and looking. He gets to open the larder in each of us and show us the treasure that was always there. Words can be deceivng. Words can be misused. Words can lie. True feelings are just that: true. Trust your feelings. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 21:38:43 (EDT)
From: Rahab Email: None To: CS Subject: Guess who hides out in the Message: CS aka Balaam, Try listening to the jackass this time around! R Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 21:01:32 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: CS Subject: Read the Maharajia Apologia Message: CS, You should go over to Roger's site and see the Maharajia Apologia if you haven't already. Can you count how many defenses you've tried to mount in your one, little post here? Lots. Shotgun-style, I'd dare say. First he didn't say that, or that's not what it means, or let's not get hung up in words or it's all paradox anyway. Didn't take you too long to end up at shit happens. I'd say you got there in something like record time. Anyway, for your further consideration, you said: The man never said his mortal body, personal actions, or any other part of his life was 'perfect', as far as I know. Let me get this straight. You are talking about the same body we worshipped, kissed the feet of, drank the bathwater of, cherished, etc., etc.? The same one he said this about: When human beings forget the religion of humanity, the Supreme Lord incarnates. He takes a body and comes on this earth ...... and: When human beings forget this one way, then our Lord, who is the Lord of the whole universe, comes in human body to give us practical Knowlege, .... and: But, most ironically, we don't appreciate the Lord when He comes in His human body on this earth. I don't want to tell you how to run your game or anything but if I were you I'd go with the paradox. It's easier and we call get out of here in time to do something tonite. Okay? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 21:49:53 (EDT)
From: CS Email: None To: Jim Subject: This is beginning to feel like Message: a very private poker game in a tourist town and I just wandered in from Iowa on vacation with my wallet hanging out. Is that it? If so, just chalk me up and go on to the next one. As you get older, you begin to see more clearly that fighting and bickering is a very inefficient and absurd means to a solution. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 21:54:04 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: CS Subject: And another one bites the dust Message: CS, What this is is a REAL conversation. No quibbling, no pretense, we'se just talking turkey. What'd he say? What'd he do? What'd we say and do in response? What were the effects? Was it real? If not what was it? That kind of thing. You're welcome to stick around if you like. The only problem is it's apparently impossible for premies to talk about Maharaji fairly. Trust me, CS honey, you can't do it. It's impossible. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 18:49:49 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: CS Subject: Challenge to all Premies Message: You said, 'Do you know anyone who has not changed their image to some degree in the last 20-30 years?' Nope! Everything and everyone changes. The hairstyle changes. The wrinkles come. The job changes. Some ideas change. The basic personality stays the same. I'm not sure, but I imagine the position of Lord of the Universe would be a permanent job regardless of other changes. He's like a politician. Until last year, the net was a bad, bad thing. Now, his Visions business and Elan Vital propaganda are on line. You said, 'Since he's in the spotlight, when he makes a change, it's magnified very much.' This is a major change, CS. Going from the Lord of the Universe (not a leaf moves without his say so) to a Meditation teacher with Visions products for sale is a bit of a stretch. It could be likened to Bill Clinton running for Mayor of Hope, Arkansas (not that he'd have a hope) when his term as president is over. Can you imagine Leonardo DiCaprio turning in his Actra License to run a video rental store. Sure, it's the movie business, but . . . You said, 'If you had that kind of attention on you, would there be grounds for someone scrutinizing your every move and word to accuse you of being a hypocrite, fraud, liar, or any of the other things you accuse him of?' What! You'd better believe it! MJ told us he was the Supreme Power in Person. He demanded that we hand over the reins of our lives and surrender to him totally. He masqueraded as Lord Krishna. He had us kiss his feet and drink his bath water. Where were you? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 20:05:33 (EDT)
From: CS Email: None To: Gail Subject: Challenge to all Premies Message: Gail, 'He had us kiss his feet and drink his bath water.' The operative words here are: 'He had us...' Pretty weak. You made a choice. Was it a conscious one? Now what are you saying? You were not in your right mind? It doesn't matter where I was. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. As for the LOTU matter, think about it a little more. Can you imagine any other reason for the shift besides the theory that he is a bad guy? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 21:21:08 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: CS Subject: Another idiot, I'm afraid Message: The operative words here are: 'He had us...' Pretty weak. You made a choice. Was it a conscious one? Now what are you saying? You were not in your right mind? Really, CS, what do you think?? DUH!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 21:53:27 (EDT)
From: CS Email: None To: Jim Subject: Be not afraid, for lo.... Message: Jim, Are you saying that he had the power to make us all nuts and believe him all that time? Or he just happened to skim us off as we were having our individual breakdowns? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 21:59:46 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: CS Subject: Use your brains, okay? Message: Are you saying that he had the power to make us all nuts and believe him all that time? Or he just happened to skim us off as we were having our individual breakdowns? I'm saying that the guru and the whole DLM machine he rode in on were a formidable con job for naive western kids in the early seventies. Everything followed from that. But you know that. Don't waste my time with pointless questions. You might not agree but don't play the fool. You know what we all blame Maharaji for -- tricking us! Was he good or were we just bad? Doesn't matter. The point is he tricked us. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 22:26:50 (EDT)
From: CS Email: None To: Jim Subject: Using my brains Message: When I read your post, and I received, really received those words to use my brains, a story came to me. Maybe you heard it. A man was returning on foot to his estate from a long journey. As he reached the top of the hill he could see his beloved home in the distance, where his wife and children were. He could see them in the windows, oblivious to the fact that at the other end of the house, a fire was beginning to burn the house. Not wanting to scare his family and possibly cause more injury or death by panic, he coaxed each one out by calling to them that he had brought them each the thing they wanted the most. Hearing this, they each ran out of the house up the hill to their father. When they all arrived safely, he had them turn around and see the house they had just been in crashing to the ground in flames. Then he told them that he did not really have their gifts with him, but he promised them that he most assuredly would get them soon. He had saved their lives by getting them out of a burning building by telling them 'lies' and made good once his family was safe. I don't expect you, Jim, to understand. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 22:48:42 (EDT)
From: Mary M Email: None To: CS Subject: Using my brains Message: C'mon CS, What's next the 'Life is Beautiful' movie. I can't think of any justification for the lies. I just watched the LOTU video. One of the quotes on the light up billboards was from Revelations, 'And God shall personally wipe away your tears.' Personally, I think not. M is too darn impersonal. Mary Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 22:59:37 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: CS Subject: Using my brains Message: I don't expect you, Jim, to understand. And that's why you'll spell it out for me, right? Or are you yourself so embarrassed by what you're trying to say here that you can't quite bring yourself to type it? Come on, CS, tell me what lies Maharaji told and why. You might want to start with: The Lord Himself reincarnates, reincarnates, reincarnates Himself for the very purpose of saving us. And we do not even realize who gave us the authority to refuse Him! Who are we anyway? From which field do we come that we can reject, that we can refuse, that we can deny our Lord? This is something that I cannot answer. And we do it every time!. Because we have got a stupid ego. ..... We just don't know that we are His puppets. or maybe something a little simpler? How about: LEAVE NO ROOM FOR DOUBT IN YOUR MIND Go on, I'm listening. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 23:33:45 (EDT)
From: watcher Email: None To: CS Subject: Using my brains Message: Think they've got you by the short ones there CS. Give it up, man. Hey it's 11pm, shouldn't you be practising (as in 'what you're preaching') Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 03:42:35 (EDT)
From: Jethro Email: None To: CS Subject: Using my brains Message: 'He had saved their lives by getting them out of a burning building by telling them 'lies' and made good once his family was safe.' Tell that to the people who were molested by his represenatives who he still protects. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 06:33:12 (EDT)
From: cp Email: None To: thread Subject: Exclusive techniques/grace Message: Did he say that he was the ONLY one to bring the knowledge? That is what I find disgusting after all these years. He acted like he had exclusive rights to the techniques. Didnt he? I know that I totally belived theat all other gurus were cheap imitations. This is exasperating when you talk with premeis There is this high school pseudo exclusive club clique cool cats thing. This is probably unrelated to this thread, but you know what it is like when something connects up. Peace inside does not have his label on it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 13:05:45 (EDT)
From: Jethro Email: None To: cp Subject: Exclusive techniques/grace Message: He used to say that he was the oak tree and the others were weeds. He probably doesn't address the issue now days since he has stopped calling himself guru and wants people to relate to him as something else......not sure what though. I wonder of he is a aware that there are people who successfully practise the techniques without him and have never heard of him or any other guru. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 16:05:05 (EDT)
From: KB Email: None To: Jethro Subject: How about yelling 'fire!' ? Message: NOOOO, better to lie. People are to stupid to understand the word fire. Very deceptive thinking process and a wierd way to rationalize lying. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 17:15:54 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: KB Subject: In Pleasantville, you have to Message: yell CAT if you need the fire department. It's sort of like the cult. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 23:00:11 (EDT)
From: CS Email: None To: Gail Subject: In Pleasantville, you have to Message: Dear Gail, Hope you are feeling well this evening. I would bet you that they only had to go through that 'CAT' thing once with the fire dept. From the way those folks popped into color after things got going, I'd say their learning curve was pretty quick. Especially at Lover's Lane... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 25, 1999 at 02:38:34 (EDT)
From: mw Email: None To: Gail Subject: Nightmares Message: It was like this knowledge was the color, and the people of the town lived in a ho drum black and white existence. One person would have this beauty in their life and others that had just a little contact with that person would go away changed, color has been introduced in their life. Maharaji shows us that color and it is beautiful, the reds are red, and the yellows are yellow, real. He shows us the reality of world we are living in, he takes of our tinted glasses that block the colors of the world and we see clearly. :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 21, 1999 at 12:53:33 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Great news on my website! Message: For all India's lovers, you'll now be able to download parts or the whole website on my new page: please go check Download the website That 1st part is for tests. Tell me what you think. The rest will be online soon, and linked to the rest of the site. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 21, 1999 at 23:02:08 (EDT)
From: KB Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Great work JM!-(nt) Message: sdfh Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 14:41:03 (EDT)
From: Happy Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Great ideaJM!-(nt) Message: much appreciated. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |