Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 50

From: Jun 2, 1999

To: Jun 8, 1999

Page: 2 Of: 5



Jim -:- Mike should be banned!! -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 17:24:13 (EDT)
__Question for JW -:- Mike should be banned!! -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 17:39:51 (EDT)
____JW -:- Mike should be banned!! -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 18:17:06 (EDT)
______Thanks, JW -:- For the thoughtful reply -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 22:02:45 (EDT)
__Mike -:- I agree!!! -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 17:51:19 (EDT)
__barney -:- Yes, master. I will obey. -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 19:26:32 (EDT)
____Mike -:- Yes, master. I will obey. -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 10:33:42 (EDT)
______barney -:- make that a Phalanx CIWS (ot) -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 15:07:36 (EDT)
________Mike -:- make that a Phalanx CIWS (ot) -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 17:24:16 (EDT)

Carol -:- letter to aide a doubter -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 15:16:01 (EDT)
__Anne -:- letter to aide a doubter -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 16:56:07 (EDT)
____Nil -:- letter to aide a doubter -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 20:29:36 (EDT)
______JF -:- letter to aide Nil -:- Sat, Jun 05, 1999 at 00:20:42 (EDT)
________KB -:- NIl should hang out with kids -:- Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 00:32:12 (EDT)
____Carol -:- letter to aide a doubter -:- Sat, Jun 05, 1999 at 13:48:31 (EDT)

Jean-Michel -:- The Absurd God -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 12:47:07 (EDT)
__Nil -:- How do you spell ignorance... -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 13:22:15 (EDT)
____Gerry (k/g v.1.1) -:- How do you spell ignorance... -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 13:33:02 (EDT)
______Nil -:- How do you spell ignorance... -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 15:13:56 (EDT)
________gerry (Beta version) -:- How do you spell ignorance... -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 15:27:38 (EDT)
__________Nil -:- How do you spell ignorance... -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 15:39:39 (EDT)
____________Gerry -:- How do you spell ignorance... -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 15:53:52 (EDT)
__________CD -:- How do you spell grok -:- Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 00:28:26 (EDT)
____________Gerry -:- How do you spell grok -:- Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 14:53:14 (EDT)
________Jean-Michel -:- Can you spell your name? -:- Sat, Jun 05, 1999 at 03:12:17 (EDT)
____Jim -:- Nil? -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 13:39:18 (EDT)
______Nil -:- Nil? -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 15:20:03 (EDT)
____Mike -:- I see, I see -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 13:58:44 (EDT)
____Gail -:- Nil, Jean-Michel is amazing! -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 17:11:31 (EDT)
______Jean-Michel -:- Gail you're wrong! -:- Sat, Jun 05, 1999 at 04:37:12 (EDT)
__I knew Foss -:- A dedicated effort! -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 15:12:26 (EDT)
____gregg -:- non-dualism -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 16:37:58 (EDT)
______Gerry -:- non-dualism -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 17:10:03 (EDT)
____X -:- history of Foss -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 23:42:56 (EDT)
______I knew Foss -:- So, what's your point? -:- Sat, Jun 05, 1999 at 02:03:08 (EDT)
________X -:- sense is an illusion -:- Sat, Jun 05, 1999 at 23:57:37 (EDT)
__________I knew Foss -:- My scentless apprentice -:- Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 03:09:32 (EDT)
__Anne -:- The Absurd God -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 17:21:45 (EDT)
____Jim -:- Yes, thanks JM -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 20:13:05 (EDT)
______I knew Foss -:- Read my post above (nt) -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 23:32:12 (EDT)
______Marianne -:- Yes, thanks JM -:- Sat, Jun 05, 1999 at 01:05:38 (EDT)
________Jean-Michel -:- Talking with animals -:- Sat, Jun 05, 1999 at 03:19:39 (EDT)
__________Marianne -:- Talking with animals (OT) -:- Sat, Jun 05, 1999 at 13:46:00 (EDT)
__Bible Thumper/tiny thumps -:- Re: The Absurd God -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 19:58:41 (EDT)
____gregg -:- Re: The Absurd God -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 22:44:42 (EDT)
______BT -:- Re: The Absurd God -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 23:52:59 (EDT)

Tattoo -:- the facts Jack -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 07:54:29 (EDT)
__g's mom -:- sorry Herb -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 11:51:35 (EDT)

Keith -:- whatever inspiration happens -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 01:35:29 (EDT)
__criminal justice system -:- no justification?? -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 01:56:01 (EDT)
____AJW -:- no justification?? -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 05:28:11 (EDT)
__Robyn -:- whatever inspiration happens -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 01:56:44 (EDT)
__a -:- whatever inspiration happens -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 06:02:51 (EDT)
__Jerry -:- whatever inspiration happens -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 08:41:45 (EDT)
__Mike -:- Tolerance -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 09:18:57 (EDT)
__Gerry -:- whatever inspiration happens -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 10:40:33 (EDT)

Robyn -:- Say Happy Birthday, Gerry! :) -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 01:20:23 (EDT)
__barney -:- Say Happy Birthday, Gerry! :) -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 02:40:25 (EDT)
__Sir Dave -:- Say Happy Birthday, Gerry! :) -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 07:15:39 (EDT)
____Jerry -:- Jerry = Gerry? (not) -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 09:00:03 (EDT)
______Mike -:- You are a registered what????? -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 09:20:16 (EDT)
______Robyn -:- Jerry = Gerry? (not) -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 10:25:46 (EDT)
________Mike -:- God, not YOU, too! -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 14:01:18 (EDT)
__Jerry -:- Say Happy Birthday, Gerry! :) -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 08:44:55 (EDT)
____Gerry -:- Say Happy Birthday, Gerry! :) -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 11:15:43 (EDT)
______KB -:- Say Happy Birthday, Gerry! :) -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 22:42:53 (EDT)
__Mike -:- Happy Birthday, Gerry! :) -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 09:21:32 (EDT)
__Katie -:- Happy birthday, Gerry/gerry! -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 09:50:41 (EDT)
____Gerard -:- Rain on my parade -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 10:25:33 (EDT)
______Robyn -:- Rain on my parade -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 10:33:22 (EDT)
________Gerry -:- Rain on my parade -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 10:54:49 (EDT)
__________Jerry -:- Gerard -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 14:29:04 (EDT)
____________Gerardo -:- Gerard -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 14:50:36 (EDT)
______________gl -:- sorry meant 'incorrect' nt -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 14:58:42 (EDT)
______________Jerry -:- Gerard -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 15:20:03 (EDT)
______________Helen -:- Happy birthday -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 20:30:28 (EDT)
__________Robyn -:- Rain on my parade -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 18:06:19 (EDT)
______Katie -:- great resolution, Gerry! -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 18:25:08 (EDT)
__Mickey the Pharisee -:- Say Happy Birthday, Gerry! :) -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 11:54:01 (EDT)
____Gerry (kinder,gentler) -:- Say Happy Birthday, Gerry! :) -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 12:03:58 (EDT)
______Mickey the Pharisee -:- Talk Radio (way OT) -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 12:11:53 (EDT)
________Robyn -:- CA vs. PA temps -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 18:11:32 (EDT)
__________Mickey the Pharisee -:- Tom Waits -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 19:55:39 (EDT)
____________Robyn -:- Tom Waits -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 20:07:00 (EDT)
______________Helen -:- Tom Waits -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 20:35:56 (EDT)
________________Katie -:- Tom Waits -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 20:49:41 (EDT)
__________________Robyn -:- Tom Waits -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 22:13:18 (EDT)
____________________Mickey the Pharisee -:- Tom Waits -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 22:26:35 (EDT)
______________________Robyn -:- Tom Waits -:- Sat, Jun 05, 1999 at 00:27:43 (EDT)
____________TJ -:- Tom Waits -:- Sat, Jun 05, 1999 at 20:22:22 (EDT)
__Mickey the Pharisee -:- Say Happy Birthday, Gerry! :) -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 11:59:04 (EDT)
____Gail -:- Say Happy Birthday, Gerry! :) -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 14:56:11 (EDT)
____Robyn -:- smoked fish -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 18:16:07 (EDT)
__Carol -:- Happy Birthday, Gerry! -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 15:22:39 (EDT)
____Gerry -:- Happy Birthday, Gerry! -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 15:39:07 (EDT)
______JF -:- Happy Birthday, Gerry! -:- Sat, Jun 05, 1999 at 00:55:43 (EDT)
__Jim -:- Time to grow up! -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 17:32:05 (EDT)
__Gerry's Secret Admirer -:- hi Gerry -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 18:53:21 (EDT)
__Shp -:- Say Happy Birthday, Gerry! :) -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 20:03:39 (EDT)
____Robyn -:- Sandy -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 20:09:47 (EDT)
__TD -:- Say Happy Birthday, Gerry! :) -:- Sat, Jun 05, 1999 at 05:09:31 (EDT)
__nigel -:- Katie, Robyn, Gerry... -:- Sat, Jun 05, 1999 at 19:52:18 (EDT)
____Robyn -:- Katie, Robyn, Gerry... -:- Sat, Jun 05, 1999 at 23:28:59 (EDT)
______nigel -:- Oops! -:- Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 03:10:09 (EDT)
________Katie -:- Thank you, Nigel -:- Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 08:50:43 (EDT)
__________Gerry -:- Thanks All, and Jim... -:- Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 15:41:30 (EDT)
____________Robyn -:- Thanks All, and Jim... -:- Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 18:41:25 (EDT)

No One -:- The curse of knowledge -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 01:00:08 (EDT)
__Rob -:- The curse of schizophrenia -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 01:22:31 (EDT)
____JF -:- The curse of avoidance(ot) -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 01:37:28 (EDT)
______Rob -:- The curse of cursing -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 02:03:13 (EDT)
________Roger E. Drek -:- Expanding=Bullshit! -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 03:15:28 (EDT)
__________Lenny Juice -:- I got an idea! -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 23:15:31 (EDT)
____________No One -:- Know idea! -:- Sat, Jun 05, 1999 at 00:15:37 (EDT)
______________Lenny Juice -:- Know idea! -:- Sat, Jun 05, 1999 at 01:04:26 (EDT)
________JHB -:- Expansion? - Wrong! -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 04:27:04 (EDT)
________JF -:- The curse of cursing -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 23:53:39 (EDT)
____KB -:- back up your words -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 01:40:53 (EDT)
______Rob -:- back up your words -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 02:31:55 (EDT)
________Jethro -:- back up your words -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 02:38:35 (EDT)
__________Rob -:- back up your words -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 02:54:04 (EDT)
____________Jethro -:- back up your words -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 05:38:08 (EDT)
____________Bill, KB -:- understanding? -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 22:46:50 (EDT)
____Roger E. Drek -:- Special Experience, Hogwash! -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 03:25:43 (EDT)
____x -:- The curse of schizophrenia -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 04:05:45 (EDT)
____Jerry -:- Experience of K -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 09:27:40 (EDT)
______Helen -:- Experience of K -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 10:37:47 (EDT)
________Jerry -:- Experience of K -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 11:07:17 (EDT)
____Liz -:- The curse of schizophrenia -:- Sat, Jun 05, 1999 at 15:30:29 (EDT)
__Jethro -:- The curse of knowledge -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 02:24:43 (EDT)
____Rob -:- The curse of being right -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 02:42:48 (EDT)
______x -:- The curse of being right -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 05:35:36 (EDT)
______Jethro -:- The curse of being right -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 05:57:26 (EDT)
______Jim -:- That's a stupid thing to say -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 11:39:22 (EDT)
__AJW -:- The curse of knowledge -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 04:45:08 (EDT)
____x -:- The curse of knowledge -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 05:46:45 (EDT)
__Sir Dave -:- Meditation is not the truth -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 06:00:27 (EDT)
____Sir Dave (again) -:- And furthermore... -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 07:05:45 (EDT)
__Helen -:- The curse of knowledge -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 09:10:49 (EDT)
__Mike -:- WHAT????? -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 09:41:01 (EDT)
__Katie -:- The Curse - to NoOne -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 17:49:50 (EDT)
____Katie -:- More to NoOne -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 18:48:35 (EDT)
____No One -:- The Curse - to NoOne -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 18:55:19 (EDT)
______Jim -:- No One's a good example -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 19:11:57 (EDT)
________Sir Dave -:- Unraveling the mess -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 20:31:18 (EDT)
__________Helen -:- Unraveling the mess -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 20:49:01 (EDT)
________No One -:- Jim is know example either -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 23:13:44 (EDT)
__________Jim -:- Hey. I was trying to be nice! -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 23:50:34 (EDT)
____________No One -:- Hey. I was trying to be nice! -:- Sat, Jun 05, 1999 at 00:25:32 (EDT)
______________JF -:- Hey. I was trying to be nice! -:- Sat, Jun 05, 1999 at 01:10:02 (EDT)
________________No One -:- Hey. I was trying to be nice! -:- Sat, Jun 05, 1999 at 15:05:53 (EDT)
__Gail -:- The curse of knowledge -:- Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 15:03:17 (EDT)

UNO (aka Sir Dave) -:- The Lord of love & light -:- Thurs, Jun 03, 1999 at 23:38:07 (EDT)
__Gail -:- The Lord of love & light -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 00:20:48 (EDT)
__Robyn -:- The Lord of love & light -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 01:11:18 (EDT)
____Jethro -:- ROBYN:The Lord prejudice -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 02:30:20 (EDT)
______Robyn -:- ROBYN:The Lord prejudice -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 06:51:58 (EDT)
__Mike -:- Excuse me, can I ask a -:- Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 09:46:13 (EDT)


Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 17:24:13 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Mike should be banned!!
Message:
I thinkMike should be banned from this pge for his relentless advocacy of gun ownership and Arizona-style shopping centre shootouts. It's a good thing I don't have kids because if I did what would happen if they ever read this site? (Luckily Laurie's kids are growed up enough toknow what a waste of time this page is, but younger kids are more impressionable. Besides, even if something happened to Laurie's kids, they're not mine so , well, whatever, eh?)

Barney, why is it taking you so long to do something? Are you worried that Mike'll come over with one of his bullet guns and shoot you in the back of the head? He doesn't know that you live in Atlanta. Only I do. Besides, I don't think he'd do it anyway. Not unless you deputized him.

No, that's it. Mike, that's it.

Besides, guns are designed for one purpose only -- to kill. They're not designed for target practise. That's the biggest joke I've ever heard. That's like saying your pee pee was designed for wanking. Fuget it!.
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 17:39:51 (EDT)
From: Question for JW
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Mike should be banned!!
Message:
JW, when you say the constitution was written to specifically allow slavery, are you referring to Article One, Section two subsection three? It deals with how the census is to be enumerated with ''all other persons counted as 3/5ths'' which we all know referred to slaves. Otherwise I can't find it. I did read the 13th amendment which specifically outlaws slavery, but I can't find any support for your statement.
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 18:17:06 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Question for JW
Subject: Mike should be banned!!
Message:
Well, I don't have the constitution in front of me, but I recall there was a provision in the constitution that the federal government was PROHIBITED from restricting the slave trade until, I think it was, 1811 or 1817, or something like that. Since the federal government, as opposed to the states, has authority over 'trade' that had to be spelled out. The Constitution does, however, specifically only recognize whites as citizens, and only males, in fact only males who owned property, were allowed to vote in federal elections.

The constitution is silent, in the sense that it doesn't outlaw slavery, and it was up to each state to have it be legal or not. This was a big issue at the time. The decision was made to allow slavery to be legal. But by the time the constitution was adopted, slavery was already illegal in a couple of Northern states.

This was discussed endlessly, but the decision was made to NOT outlaw it. The Southern colonies specifically required that. Also, I think the 3/5ths issue was that slaves could be counted as 3/5ths of a person for the purposes of establishing the number of representatives in the House that the various states got, but they weren't counted at all for the purposes of taxation. (Great deal, no?) That was another bone thrown to the Southern colonies, as the south had smaller populations than the northern colonies.

Actually, at the time of the Constitution, slavery was beginning to die out as a profitable enterprise. It was only with the invention of the cotton gin in, I think, 1815 or so that slavery became VERY profitable in the South and the number of slaves really took off. By that time, the 20 year ban had expired and the US did ban the further importation of slaves, but there were already something like 4 million slaves in the country, and there was plently of 'breeding stock' so to speak, so importation wasn't necessary. Many of the leaders of the time, Jefferson, Washington, etc., were slave owners.
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 22:02:45 (EDT)
From: Thanks, JW
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: For the thoughtful reply
Message:
I can't find that section about trade, but I do recall it being in there, without the specific mention of the slave trade, however. Of course this was what it was about and the compromise eventually lead to the civil war. What I think is great about our country is that there WERE people willing to stand up and fight for this even if it meant pitting family against family. The US constitution is one of the most remarkable documents of all time, wouldn't you agree?
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 17:51:19 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I agree!!!
Message:
Jim's absolutely right! I'm just totally out of it....... Oh my god, I LOVE guns! Guns, guns, gimme guns..... Yeah, I'm one of those typical Astrophysicists that sits around a raging campfire of fresh hewn wood and guzzles beer by the gallon while justa shootin' up the woods and all the critters in it. THERE, now I can be branded a gun-wacko by the forum like the media already has done.... he he he :-)

Hey, I didn't say that they were originally designed for target shooting. Actually, they were originally designed for food gathering and protection. I said target shooting is NOW the most popular activity for which they are used. The fact that 'clubs' and bows/arrows were originally used to kill people doesn't mean that its basic purpose can't be changed (e.g. golfing and archery). Want proof? Bring yer family down here ta arizonee and I'll show ye the competition ranges.....active everyday of the year and full to the point of waiting in line to use them.

Now for something completely different:

Jim, don't tell me that ye never pulled yer wanker, dear boy. I'll be thinkin' yer a teller of the tallest tales if yer do!
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 19:26:32 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yes, master. I will obey.
Message:
Yes, Jim, I've been derelict in my duties. I thought he was talking about gubs.

Mike, you're gone, baby, way gone. And if you come to Atlanta to put the hit on me can I ask one favor? Bring a full auto. I'd really like to shoot one of those babies before I die. Like in Russia I'll gladly pay for the bullets.
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 10:33:42 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: Yes, master. I will obey.
Message:
barney: M-14, H&K, Uzi or MAC-10? Your choice..... ;-) You got money for the ammo? They use an awful lot of it.... :-)
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 15:07:36 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: make that a Phalanx CIWS (ot)
Message:
Mike,

If we're going to do this, why not go all the way with a Phalanx CIWS?

As you know:

Firing at a rate of 4,500 rounds per minute, the CIWS saturates the target with depleted uranium 20mm shells.

I think that the IRS owes me a refund and that might cover the cost.

God, what the hell does that sound like? We're talking 75 rounds per second!
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 17:24:16 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: make that a Phalanx CIWS (ot)
Message:
Barney: It works for me..... he he he. We can see if Mr. Dillon will let us on his range (he has one)!!!! Gotta get a special invite to go, though. Maybe I can schmooze him a little. :-)
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 15:16:01 (EDT)
From: Carol
Email: rbruce@teleport.com
To: Everyone
Subject: letter to aide a doubter
Message:
This is a reply to a letter from someone to my e-mail:

Hi! I know it has been a long time since you wrote requesting assistance to dissuade your girlfriend from following Maharaji. I don't look at this e-mail very often. I use another one. I just watched part of a tv show last night about the beliefs that some people have despite evidence to the contrary (because they so badly want to believe.)

One man, in order to discredit those who claim to channel and discourage the believers, created a new person who channeled by following a formula that looked very convincing. His student or employee, Jose(?), was supposed to channel an ancient spirit from South America. He made appearances and answered questions, with the expertise and coaching of his employer. Before he entered a trance to channel, his pulse stopped briefly, as if to demonstrate that this great change was happening. He also slumped over, as if unconscious. A nurse was on stage to take his pulse. All very impressive! Then he would awaken with vigor to announce ' I am Alex!' (?I don't remember the name, actually) He accomplished the pulse trick by squeezing a ball under his arm. Once the fraud was revealed, some avid believers (he had a large following by then) continued to believe in him and wrote him letters or told him so!

I had to laugh about it when I watched. But it truly demonstrates that the power of a person's belief is stronger than any reason or evidence to the contrary. No one can convince another to discard their beliefs. But if doubts arise, it can be very helpful to have someone willing to listen and support alternative views. That is your role. I left my first husband 27 years ago because he put down my beliefs in Maharaji. At the time it was the most important thing in my life! It took me 26 years to finally explore my doubts and become free (with the help of the ex-premie forum).

I personally do not believe that Maharaji is evil. I think he is deeply invested with his body, mind and soul in believing in himself and his knowledge. The knowledge techniques and some of the philosophy are valuable, but the belief th M is God, or greater than God is harmful and mistaken. He is no more or less that than each of us are capable of perceiving. The knowledge techniques are not exclusively taught or known by him (you can read all about that at the ex-premie site or links).

It is a very attractive idea to idolize someone who we believe loves us purely and who we can give and receive unconditional love. It was difficult for me to let go of that ideal and belief. But doing so has freed me to love God within me and in others more completely. I am freed of guilt about not 'doing' knowledge practice right or long enough and giving enough money or time. And I really only received what I invested my own love in. It wasn't 'from' Maharaji! I am grateful to have known and loved many wonderful people who also loved Maharaji and I wish them well!
Sincerely,
Carol Bruce formerly Reynolds and Clausnitzer, Portland, OR)

Anyone else watch that show?

Quote:
We need to acknowledge our own responsibility for the image of God that we are content to believe in. -Diana Eck
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 16:56:07 (EDT)
From: Anne
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: letter to aide a doubter
Message:
Yes Carol I also watched that tv program last night in fasination.

Is my reality only what I choose to believe?
Is that all that 'reality' is?
Or is it the reality of imposed beliefs?

As a kid you fall down and scrape your knee, crying away your mother tells you she will kiss it better. In reality this was your signal to stop crying once kissed but it still hurt after the kiss, didn't feel any better. How you wanted to believe that your mother could make the hurt go away and you wanted so much to believe that she had that power, and she seemed to believe that she had the power to take away your pain so that, sometimes it did.

We are taught to 'believe' in the absurd instead of acknowledging what is 'real'. The scraped knee really hurt, tears were a natural expression for physical and emotional pain of having fallen down. Reasurance that the pain would pass would have had some basis in reality.... but no, let me kiss it better... magic.

Is it any wonder that as young adults we still wanted the 'kiss and make it better' trip to be real? The belief of some wonderful experience when we kissed mj's feet that would make our lives so much better, only by his grace.

Do I really get to choose what I believe in?
When I believed in mj there was no doubt in my mind who he was. Now I no longer believe in him and once again there is no doubt in my mind who he is.

Beliefs require black and white thinking, all or nothing, whereas reality evolves with understanding, experience and proof.
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 20:29:36 (EDT)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Anne
Subject: letter to aide a doubter
Message:
Enlightened post Anne. I personally strive to believe in only what I know. And it does take a lot of honesty to clearly see what you truly know, and what you think you know. As for Maharaji, I really only know what he's shown me about myself, and it has been a gift. I learned that following him is difficult when you try to label him. At times I see power; at times I see kindness; at times I see wisdom; at times I see anger; at times I see pride; at times I see one of the guys. No matter how others have wanted to label him I never really bought it. There are however moments when I've witnessed a mastery of life that I've never seen before... when I've sensed what perfection may look like in human form. These are things I've seen with my own eyes, and hopefully not filtered through any prejudice. So I don't want to believe what he may be... and I don't want to believe what he may not be. That way, perhaps my vision can be clear enough just to see what is.
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Date: Sat, Jun 05, 1999 at 00:20:42 (EDT)
From: JF
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: letter to aide Nil
Message:
As for Maharaji, I really only know what he's shown me about myself, and it has been a gift. I learned that following him is difficult when you try to label him. At times I see power; at times I see kindness; at times I see wisdom; at times I see anger; at times I see pride; at times I see one of the guys. No matter how others have wanted to label him I never really bought it. There are however moments when I've witnessed a mastery of life that I've never seen before... when I've sensed what perfection may look like in human form.(emphasis my own)

Nil,

Thanks for the insight into the mind set of a demented idolater.
Truly fascinating!

Regards,
Joseph(aka Nim:):):)
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Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 00:32:12 (EDT)
From: KB
Email: None
To: JF
Subject: NIl should hang out with kids
Message:
OR, for perfection in a human form,
centerfolds are reccomended.
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Date: Sat, Jun 05, 1999 at 13:48:31 (EDT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Anne
Subject: letter to aide a doubter
Message:
It was hard to choose a subject heading. I was writing to a guy that e-mailed me wondering if I could help him dissuade his girlfriend from involvement with Mj. I hoped to explain to him how hard that might be given my own history of involvement and finally leaving.

You said, ' Do I really get to choose what I believe?'
I know I didn't have much real choice when I first got involved. I was swept away by my emotions and desire to know something more 'real' and to know that magical feeling of very strong love. I imagine it was because of a variety of reasons including family history, genetic and nuerological differences, religious background, drug experiences,impressive peers etc.

You said,' When I believed in mj there was no doubt in my mind who he was. Now I no longer believe in him and once again there is no doubt in my mind who he is.' I agree. It is easy for us to believe something is true just because we have no doubt!

'Beliefs require black and white thinking, all or nothing, whereas reality evolves with understanding, experience and proof.'

Yes, but how we define (or believe in) reality is the basis for our world paradigm or what we accept as true. I used to think (Mj's) Knowledge was 'the experience' and the proof of my reality! My how a change of perspective (belief) changes my experience!

I am very grateful that the forum existed when I was ready to explore my doubts, and still exists as a place where this kind of dialogue can take place. I feel free to have my own perspectives and beliefs which are continually being shifted over the course of my life. That feels very good, unlike any devotion to one master or one way!

Carol
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 12:47:07 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The Absurd God
Message:
Read the whole article, except for the last reference section, which will be online in a few days:

Worshipping the Absurd

'The Negation of Social Causality among the Followers of Guru Maharaj Ji.'
By Daniel A. Foss and Ralph W. Larkin (Rutgers University),
in Sociological Analysis, 1978. Page 157-164.
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 13:22:15 (EDT)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: How do you spell ignorance...
Message:
...in french:

J-E-A-N--M-I-C-H-E-L
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 13:33:02 (EDT)
From: Gerry (k/g v.1.1)
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: How do you spell ignorance...
Message:
Nil, the guy's a doctor, for chrissakes! An animal doctor but, heck do you know how much training and education that takes? Besides, JM is not making this stuff up--it was written by people outside the premie/ex dichotomy. He's far from ignorant--and he was very high up in the EV org.
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 15:13:56 (EDT)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Gerry (k/g v.1.1)
Subject: How do you spell ignorance...
Message:
Nil, the guy's a doctor, for chrissakes! An animal doctor but, heck do you know how much training and education that takes?
Yeah, yeah I know, he's a real genius. I'm just venting for past sins... nothing to do with his article. JM is an example of the fact that you don't have to be stupid to suffer from tunnel vision, and intellegence doesn't guarantee honesty.
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 15:27:38 (EDT)
From: gerry (Beta version)
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: How do you spell ignorance...
Message:
Nil,

you're a pretty straight shooter, and I think you add to the discussion. Do you think there is such a thing as awakening, and do pwk's eventually get there? I'm asking because there is a lot of discussion on the 'net about awakening through non-dual or advaita type experiences.

These ''awakenings'' seem to occur spontaneously and require no effort or spiritual striving on the part of the recipient. There's no path and nothing to practise. In fact, these folks say spiritual striving is one of the major obstacles to this realization. What do you think?
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 15:39:39 (EDT)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: gerry (Beta version)
Subject: How do you spell ignorance...
Message:
These ''awakenings'' seem to occur spontaneously and require no effort or spiritual striving on the part of the recipient. There's no path and nothing to practise. In fact, these folks say spiritual striving is one of the major obstacles to this realization. What do you think?

Consciousness is the key. Everything in the universe is happening all around us right now. The key is becoming and staying conscious so it can be perceived. The more of it that is perceived, the more awakened you become. This works for all growth in understanding, including science. Becoming can happen at random... whereas staying takes effort of some kind IMHO.
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 15:53:52 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: How do you spell ignorance...
Message:
Consciousness is the key. Everything in the universe is happening all around us right now. The key is becoming and staying conscious so it can be perceived. The more of it that is perceived, the more awakened you become. This works for all growth in understanding, including science. Becoming can happen at random... whereas staying takes effort of some kind IMHO.

I tend to agree. The nondualists are found of saying ''Consciousness is all there is and You ARE That. The ''work'' that needs to be done is to keep the question ''who am I?'' in the forefront of your thinking. There's lots of teachers out there and tons of info on the web. This seems right to me somehow, and I had a pretty extraordinary satsang experience with Nick (Arjuna) Ardaugh last May in Seattle.

Uh OH, I'm in for now! Don't forget it's my birthday guys. You can flog me tomorrow.
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Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 00:28:26 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: gerry (Beta version)
Subject: How do you spell grok
Message:
>I'm asking because there is a lot of discussion on the 'net about awakening through non-dual or advaita type experiences.

Have you ever woken up with a curious, strange, scared, awakened type of feeling about living and eternity?
Certainly there is no such thing as infinity and eternity, but ...
Luckily Jim says he knows the answer to the chicken and egg puzzle.
Pleasant dreams!

CD
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Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 14:53:14 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: How do you spell grok
Message:
Hi Chris.

You said' Have you ever woken up with a curious, strange, scared, awakened type of feeling about living and eternity?

Well, yes, actually. It was the day after I saw Arjuna in Seattle. What's your point?
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Date: Sat, Jun 05, 1999 at 03:12:17 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Can you spell your name?
Message:
you don't have to be stupid to suffer from tunnel vision, and intellegence doesn't guarantee honesty.

Will you back up and explain what you're saying?
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 13:39:18 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Nil?
Message:
Nil,

I'm just curious. Do you actually think your comment is effective in any way? Really, what impression do you think it makes? Not just about you but about your 'Master'?
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 15:20:03 (EDT)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Nil?
Message:
..hey, aren't I entitled to the odd cheap shot like the rest of you? Maybe you're right Jim... I've sunk to the levels of the critical mass on this forum. Won't happen again.
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 13:58:44 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: I see, I see
Message:
Nil: If we read authoritative papers on a subject, then we are ignorant. If, however, we listen to the ramblings of an elementary school grad (magna cum nada), then we are intelligent.

This sounds alot like the old taoist saying, 'He who knows, speaks not. While he who speaks, knows not.' What may pass, to some, as profundity is actually illogical/irrational/meaningless thought....nothing more!
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 17:11:31 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Nil, Jean-Michel is amazing!
Message:
Dear Nil:

Jean-Michel was high on the DLM/EV totem pole. MJ gave him that status. Do you really think our MJ, the knower of all, actually made a mistake? I think not. He trusted JM implicitly. MJ must have known that JM would be needed to help free devotees when they were ready. (MJ did say that one day we would not need the master. This was the devotee's last attachment to relinquish).

Think, Nil. Jean-Michel accepted MJ as his personal saviour and dedicated his life to MJ's bidding for decades. His goal, just like ours, was to know ever-illusive, divine essense of god. He wasted many years with MJ and K just like we have. He practiced/meditated, prayed, begged, satsanged/ videod, served, deprived himself, and obsessed about MJ much more than you or I could ever imagine. JM was also used to entice other seekers into MJ's endless loop. He is an expert on MJ's work.

JM admits that MJ was a big, painful mistake; most of us won't even concede to making a grammatical error. This is encouraging for premies who want out. When Jean-Michel said a few key things such as 'Fear' and 'Fairy Tales' to me, MJ's grip on my life started to loosen immediately. A year later, I see that MJ's 'PLAY' was nothing more than a Grimm Fairy Tale. I would still be stuck in MJ's mire today without JM and all other wonderful, dedicated ex-premies.

Nil, you are weak (co-dependant on MJ), ignorant (of the self-awareness to recognize that you are in deep psychological pain from years of denial), and filled with the impurities (concepts) of MJ's world. Please take yourself from this dark belief system to the light of reality and from limbo to real life while you still breathe. As for immortality--we'll all have to wait and see; why rush it? Nobody knows for sure.
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Date: Sat, Jun 05, 1999 at 04:37:12 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Gail you're wrong!
Message:
Jean-Michel was high on the DLM/EV totem pole. MJ gave him that status. Do you really think our MJ, the knower of all, actually made a mistake? I think not. He trusted JM implicitly. MJ must have known that JM would be needed to help free devotees when they were ready.

As for MJ giving me that status, this is only one side of the game.

1000s of premies wanted to be instructors. I was only one of them, and I did send an instructor application in the 70s.

When M decided he needed more instructors, by 88 I guess, there were not that many premies involved in EV anymore. I was one of them, and I was lucky enough to be a friend and close enough with the NC of that time. I had successfully overcome the ashram closing, serious health problems at that time, had a good job and a 'normal life' compared to most ex-ashram premies still living together in ashram-like houses, or struggling with their personal problems. I was already fighting (in my own way) the cult and club tendancies of some influential premies, even fighting with some of them. And M relied on the NC to choose the instructor candidates for the instructors trainings.
And I really thought that M had decided to get rid of the cult. And that's what he was saying at that time.

And this is where M was wrong, and obviously didn't (and doesn't) know actually anything about me, otherwise he would never had made me an instructor: I've always been agains the cult behaviors in DLM and EV, I've suffered from it, and fighted it whenever I could, even in the ashram.

I've always been interested in the 'spiritual' side, or taking k as a good tool towards inner awakening. I've always hoped that M was clear enough to overcome his past and all the BS that's been surrounding him since the beginning.

But I had to admit, and that's been very painful, that he didn't, and that he obviously couldn't. That was by 95-96. And it took me some time to finally decide to leave such a misleading person.

M has NOT evolved yet, and I guess he never will. I've carefully read what he said at his last events, and what he said about this Forum and his 'enemies': he has no clue of what's going on in the real (I mean the real one) world. He doesn't understand anything, he's blinded by his own faith. He lives in a coccoon, like many people do. And thanks to his pams and the money he gets, he's protected enough to be able to live like this forever.

I mean, I guess even if IRS is after him, if he gets huge fines and looses everything he possesses, he'll still be protected by his close devotees. He has NO chance to come back to the real world.

Why should one follow such a misleadind and irresponsible person?

Blindfaith? This is all k is about. Blindfaith, belief and fairy tales. What's very sad about it is that it can take you very far if you're not aware (in the normal real sense) of the drawbacks of such an attitude.
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 15:12:26 (EDT)
From: I knew Foss
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: A dedicated effort!
Message:
I knew Daniel Foss. He lived in a premie house where I briefly lived. What I didn't know was that he was an infiltrator taking notes, although I did see him constantly writing in his notebooks.

It's obvious that Foss and Larkin really got into their research by living in the trenches for years pretending to be premies going as far as doing service and going to satsang. Absolutely brilliant!

If we could only find Daniel Foss we could perhaps get his unpublished and possibly lost book, The Lovers of Maharaji. Wouldn't that be a hoot!

It would have been quite interesting as a practicing premie to have read this research paper back in 1978. At this point in time, I believe that their observations regarding the cult thinking are very accurate. And, I believe that even with today's Knowledge-Lite that the findings are still applicable.

The truth about Maharaji is eternal and does not change regardlessof the efforts of Maharaji and his premies try to rewrite the checkered past.
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 16:37:58 (EDT)
From: gregg
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: non-dualism
Message:
Gerry...about non-dualism...have you seen Jerry's non-dualistic site? Lots 'o' stuff.

Despite the obvious truth proclaimed by non-dualists/Advaita people (incl. the fascinating Ken Wilber), it seems necessary to me to do conscious work. Maybe after enough has been done realization of Ultimate Reality happens as casually as it must, outside of the whole realm of searching which is obviously a barrier to realization.

Enlightenment certainly does not happen in the way I thought it would back in the premie days!
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 17:10:03 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: glyng@techline.com
To: gregg
Subject: non-dualism
Message:
Hi Gregg

Yes, I have seen the site. I'm also on the non-dual salon mail list from OneList.com. I lurk, mostly. There are some cool and very funny people there. It gets pretty intense and yesterday I went into ''no-mail'' mode. It was Xan who told me about the site and the list.

It's high octane stuff, definitely.

Enlightenment certainly does not happen in the way I thought it would back in the premie days!

Isn't that the truth! Drop me a line sometime.
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 23:42:56 (EDT)
From: X
Email: None
To: I knew Foss
Subject: history of Foss
Message:
>Absolutely brilliant!

Now a dedicated SheepFiend

Foss: 'Why? I am forbidden to associate with the female gender in Chicago. The management of the Heartland Cafe on Lund Av, near the Morse Av El stop called the Chicago Police on me as a Probable Serial Killer because there was Something In My Eyes (possibly LSD, I forget), and the pocket full of quarters was Obviously a gun; on top of which, I was Just Sitting There.'

>It would have been quite interesting as a practicing premie to have read this research paper back in 1978. At this point in time, I believe that their observations regarding the cult thinking are very accurate.

Today is now. Taste the fruit.

Foss in perspective
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Date: Sat, Jun 05, 1999 at 02:03:08 (EDT)
From: I knew Foss
Email: None
To: X
Subject: So, what's your point?
Message:
Yes, I've been aware of those links to Foss.

So, what do you have to say about the research paper?
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Date: Sat, Jun 05, 1999 at 23:57:37 (EDT)
From: X
Email: None
To: I knew Foss
Subject: sense is an illusion
Message:
>So, what do you have to say about the research paper?

Foss: 'Thus, divested of the necessity of making sense out of the material world, they could accommodate themselves to the resurgence of dominant institutions by conforming in the name of Guru Maharaj Ji for the purposes of spreading his Knowledge of the universal Truth which could only be known through the worshiping of a God who made no sense.'

Makes sense.
Can you sense the non-material world?
Is it necessary to make sense of a storm or social madness.
Is the better person the one who can make the most sense of politics, mathematics, life or death? Does it make sense to limit the scope of subjects which make sense to a particular individual?
Foss sensed some structure but may not have sensed the vibe. There is always more to sense.
You are alive, make sense? Does love make sense if you can't understand why?
It might make sense that there is no sense or its just relative sense anyway. Is there sense without context. In a sense its senseless to sense unless its real.
Sense your moment in time.

X
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Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 03:09:32 (EDT)
From: I knew Foss
Email: None
To: X
Subject: My scentless apprentice
Message:
Man,I really glazed over on whatever you said.

I suspect that you are a practicing premie (correct me if I'm wrong) and you are trying to slide in the old eastern be-here-now Maharaji philosphy or whatever.

Basically, it's too complicated and too confusing for me that it's just not worth getting worked up about. It seems that premies and Maharaji are always trying to complicate things with their jargon and sacred mystery rather than simplify and just enjoy being alive moment by moment.

It is unrefutable that Maharaji's potent potient was that the world outside of Maharaji made no sense and that the only sense was him and inside. Well, I concur with Foss and Larkin's work that such thinking is not healthy. As human beings we are endowed with a brain that constantly, by it's very nature, attempts to make sense and put order into the world for preservation and manipulation. Trying to stop this natural behavior by taking the advice of Maharaji to achieve a higher goal is dissasociation and is simply insanity.

And, yes, I felt that inner experience and I can do so at anytime without having to ever listen to the crap that comes from Maharaji. Maharaji is a fraud, a liar, a drunkard, and someone not to trust in the least. He is POISON! Look at how many have left and how few remain. Count the casualties - there's too many.
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 17:21:45 (EDT)
From: Anne
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: The Absurd God
Message:
Thanks for the article Jean-Michel.
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 20:13:05 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Anne
Subject: Yes, thanks JM
Message:
I really enjoyed reading the article. Not too much stuffed-shirt jargon and some good insights for sure. I don't quite understand, though, how they could write this without explaining their vantage point. I take it they infiltrated the cult for a while. When? Where? For how long?

I'm gonna read it again. Thanks.
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 23:32:12 (EDT)
From: I knew Foss
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Read my post above (nt)
Message:
asdf
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Date: Sat, Jun 05, 1999 at 01:05:38 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Jean Michel
Subject: Yes, thanks JM
Message:
Jean Michel: I also thank you for the article. It was the paper I most wanted to read when you posted the syllabus. Pay no attention to the insults. It seems that whenever premies have nothing of substance to say, they attack an ex personally. I think that your contributions to this site and your own are invaluable. By the way, how many languages do you speak?

I have finished my court hearing, so I'm planning to dig out my box of old DLM stuff and take a look at it. I'll email you about the contents and we'll figure out a way to share.
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Date: Sat, Jun 05, 1999 at 03:19:39 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Talking with animals
Message:
By the way, how many languages do you speak?

Not that many. I guess I have some good communication with dogs, cats, and most animals (mammals anyway). I'm not sute about lizards, crocodiles and sharks.
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Date: Sat, Jun 05, 1999 at 13:46:00 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Talking with animals (OT)
Message:
J-M: You're so modest! I communicate with my cats --- that's about it for languages other than English for me.
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 19:58:41 (EDT)
From: Bible Thumper/tiny thumps
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: The Absurd God
Message:
Sez somewhar in the Gud Buk thet
God will use the foolish thingz
Ov this wurld to confound
The wize and proodent.

Hlk hlk hyuk hyuk....thems are laffs
Fer all yoo sityfoke.
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 22:44:42 (EDT)
From: gregg
Email: None
To: Bible Thumper/tiny thumps
Subject: Re: The Absurd God
Message:
yep

th mynd iz twuly a thng uv th dvl!

Stsng rwlz!
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 23:52:59 (EDT)
From: BT
Email: None
To: gregg
Subject: Re: The Absurd God
Message:
Man u tawk funy!
Ah cud hardlee unnderstan yu.
Hoo tawt yu how to rite?
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 07:54:29 (EDT)
From: Tattoo
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: the facts Jack
Message:
Had I not moved on to 'that' higher place, I would be forced to seek legal remedy against those who find any humor in the resemblance of my physical form with that of the bLOTU.

Residing on the other side as I now do, I can report that Maharji is, indeed, a fraud and IMHO a farging arsehole!

Sincerely,

Herb
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 11:51:35 (EDT)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: Tattoo
Subject: sorry Herb
Message:
Or wasn't it Herve?

I did not mean to speak ill of the dead. I forgot you had passed. There are computers in heaven? Or...well, I hope you aren't there.

BTW, I always thought Tattoo ought to hook up with a chick I know called Nipplering.
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 01:35:29 (EDT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: whatever inspiration happens
Message:
I only have 10 minutes left but it is good to be back in the fray , so to speak. I realise after reading some posts that the same general dynamics are occuring as did months ago...before I got blocked for being a naughty boy. AH WELL. Live and let live!
We are all seeking the promised land in our own ways. I am enjoying my life now more than I've done in years....perhaps more than ever as I'm a little wiser now. I perceive Maharaji as one sign post among many that I've experienced in my life journey. Why become addicted to a sign post? But before freedom there is seeking within the prison. The prison is the security that many need. When the time is ripe the prisoner walks away from the prison. But why be so angry with the past? That was what you were ready for. Otherwise you would have manifested another reality. If I know that a prison is not what I want then I avoid stepping into one. If I have not worked that out as yet then I will look for a prison to walk into. We all do it. Think about it. We mentally create our worlds and then go about manifesting them in mortar, so to speak. Again I say tolerance is an attitude of a more enlightened soul. There is no real justification for intolerance.
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 01:56:01 (EDT)
From: criminal justice system
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: no justification??
Message:
Excuse me, but humans are perfectly in line with
thier nature by being intolerant.
And there are lots of reasonable reasons for
intolerance.
Of course, if you have no standards, and you
are (on drugs?), then anything goes right?

Well, no.
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 05:28:11 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: criminal justice system
Subject: no justification??
Message:
Hi,

you wrote, 'Of course, if you have no standards, and you
are (on drugs?), then anything goes right?'

Look man, just because you take drugs doesn't mean than you hve to like no stan and so just i like it's i mean let's yeah

cos we all now rugs druck you up nan.

ah fuck it...

who the fuck are you anyway?

are you a cop?

are you that guy over the road who's part of a surveillance team?

are you connected to the aliens that live in the electricity cables?

did your mum give you that name?

Time to Take Tony back to his ward.

bye........
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 01:56:44 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Keith
Subject: whatever inspiration happens
Message:
I want to know why I do this or that, to much I think, but it is interesting that a lot of us share personality traits even though we are vastly different in other areas. Many of us were or continue to stall our carrers, education, whatever, for lack of self esteem, things like this, family background/dynamics stuff coupled, in most cases with youthful idealism. Yes, I always liked that little story about falling into the hole in the street and then the 2nd time almost falling in and then walking around it and then taking a different street altogether but this site is here to spread the experiences of lots of people who found that M wasn't all he cracked himself up to be, that sounds funny but it is quite late here. :) Anyway to let other know and so decide for themselves and also to help those through the process of leaving if that is what they are doing and want to be here.
I didn't have a bad time in or with the cult and I don't think you did either but just because it wasn't that way for me it doesn't mean that I don't value this site for being there for others who need it. Maybe I offer a different view in that it wasn't bad for me personally but I still see that M is not worthy of being worshiped or even put on a pedestal of any kind for what he does.
Bed time, my eyes are burning!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 06:02:51 (EDT)
From: a
Email: a
To: Keith
Subject: whatever inspiration happens
Message:
There is no real justification for intolerance.

Just to make every one smile, I am playing Lawyer for a moment, It depends on how the word is used, such as, We were intolerant because they killed our Farther.

Ha Ha Ha, every one smiled
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 08:41:45 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: whatever inspiration happens
Message:
Hi, Keith. It's good to see you back in the fray. I agree with you about tolerance. Just look at you. You'll never change. But I can live with that.
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 09:18:57 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Tolerance
Message:
Keith: 'Live and let live!'??????? No, no, no....It's 'live and LEARN!'

It's been my direct 'experience' that those who claim to be tolerant are, in fact, the least tolerant of all. They expect ME to be tolerant, but I'm not tolerated by them. I make no claim to 'total tolerance,' I just know what makes sense and what doesn't. There is a limit to tolerance. I don't tolerate drunk drivers....period! I believe they should have their 'privileges' removed permanently on the very first offense! Driving isn't even a 'right,' in this country, so why do we pamper these guys? I don't tolerate murder. I don't tolerate any violent criminal, at all! I don't tolerate poaching. I don't tolerate unethical behavior. I don't tolerate those who think they are more ...ahem... important than anyone else on this planet (or in this country). I don't tolerate liars...... I could go on and on and on!

So tell me Keith, just how tolerant are you in this regard? Live and let live????? NO, I don't think so!
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 10:40:33 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: glyng@techline.com
To: Keith
Subject: whatever inspiration happens
Message:
Keith, do you have the same e-mail address? Can you drop me a line? Thanks.
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 01:20:23 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Say Happy Birthday, Gerry! :)
Message:
Hey Gerry, didn't we 'meet' somewhere right around here a year ago? Hope you have a great one. I know the timing isn't perfect but I am up working on a proposal and don't want to forget before I go to sleep.
I tried smoked salmon for the first time, it is on that list of god forsaken highly benificial foods, I hated it! It also has that I can have soy sauce and tamiri but no tomaote sauce, I'm Italian for god's sake not Japaneese! I think I must have gotten the wrong blood type when I had the test! :)
Love ya,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 02:40:25 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Say Happy Birthday, Gerry! :)
Message:
Gerry,

Click here for your present!
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 07:15:39 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Say Happy Birthday, Gerry! :)
Message:
I've learned the difference between Jerry and Gerry. Both fascinating characters. ANd I was right when I said you were Keith.
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 09:00:03 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Jerry = Gerry? (not)
Message:
David,

I'm confused. Are you implying that Gerry and I are the same people? We're not. We're really not. Gerry lives on the west coast of the states and I on the east. My birthday is on the 16th of December, not today. I'm also a registered democrat, something I don't think Gerry would ever be. I also think Gerry's given name is Gerald. Mine's Gerard. I like mine better.
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 09:20:16 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: You are a registered what?????
Message:
JUST KIDDING!!! :-)
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 10:25:46 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Jerry
Subject: Jerry = Gerry? (not)
Message:
Dear Jerry,
I am a registered democrate also, shhhh, don't tell though. :) Is that a 'rule' or 'law' of nicknames? Jerry from Garard and Gerry from Gerald? How did you know that, it is either a rule or you have discussed it with Gerry. Funny.
I know you are different people but it is hard to keep track of exactly WHO Gerry is half the time! :) He takes that gemini thing to the extreem! :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 14:01:18 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: God, not YOU, too!
Message:
I'm surrounded....help me, help me! Where's the cavalry when you need them? OH, wait a minute, I'm the cavalry.....uh oh! :-)
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 08:44:55 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Say Happy Birthday, Gerry! :)
Message:
Happy birthday, Gerry. Hope you make a killing in the market today.
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 11:15:43 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Say Happy Birthday, Gerry! :)
Message:
Jer, I've not made a killing in the market since the Asian crisis. No customers, no sales of US commodity and prices have steadily eroded. I got killed. Lost all my money, tens of thousands of dollars. I'm poor again. D'oh! Nice thought, tho.
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 22:42:53 (EDT)
From: KB
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Say Happy Birthday, Gerry! :)
Message:
then I birthday wish you a new fortune!
May it come true.
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 09:21:32 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Happy Birthday, Gerry! :)
Message:
Happy Birthday.... from Tonto
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 09:50:41 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Happy birthday, Gerry/gerry!
Message:
Hope it's a good day! Have fun!
Love,
Katie
P.S. I see Sparky's been posting on the forum. Did you teach him how to type :)?
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 10:25:33 (EDT)
From: Gerard
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Rain on my parade
Message:
Thanks for the birthday greetings! I didn't expect them so it's a nice surprise. It's rainy and cold here in McCleary Washington (pop. 1500) and the snow level is down to 3000 feet. I'm staying home.

Katie, could you drop me a line sometime? I wanna get your new e-mail address. Ain't that Sparky sumthin?

Birthday resolution: Be nice to everyone regardless of size, shape, age, sex, orientation, punctuation, race, creed, or no creed. God I hate having to learn these first grade lessons over and over again.

And Jer, sorry, we have the same name. Mine's patent pending, though.
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 10:33:22 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Gerard
Subject: Rain on my parade
Message:
Dear Gerard,
What are you saying, you are not Gerald? I am getting so confused. Lets go back to Jerry/Gerry, I've got that one down. Sorry it is raining, it was cloudy all day on my birthday but I still went swimming!
How could you think I'd forget my birthday buddy, silly boy. :) Gee, you'll have to think of some FUN indoor activities. :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 10:54:49 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Rain on my parade
Message:
Swimming...brrrr. Actually though, I took two neighborhood kids to the creek on Easter of last year and we stayed in the water for a couple of hours. I was blue--the kids were fine.

signed,
Gerard (gerry and Gerry) but not Jerry/Gerard

Hey Jer, did you know ''Gerard'' is the Anglo version of Gerhardt which means ''hard spear'' in the German language and that Saint Gerard is the patron saint of pregnant women? Just a little trivia for ya.
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 14:29:04 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Gerard
Message:
Gerry,

I heard that 'Gerard' meant 'strong with the spear' and that St. Gerard was the patron saint of mothers. Close enough, I guess. I didn't know it was derived from 'Gerhardt'. I like 'Gerard' better.
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 14:50:36 (EDT)
From: Gerardo
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Gerard
Message:
Well, I could be correct about Gerhardt. And some lady told me about ''hard spear'' She was fun, but maybe she was wrong, too. My mom told me about the prgnant women patronage thingy AND MY MOM IS NEVER WRONG!!!!!!
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 14:58:42 (EDT)
From: gl
Email: None
To: Gerardo
Subject: sorry meant 'incorrect' nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 15:20:03 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Gerardo
Subject: Gerard
Message:
My mom told me about the prgnant women patronage thingy AND MY MOM IS NEVER WRONG!!!!!!

My mother's the one who told me about the patron saint of mother's thing. If it wasn't your birthday I'd say that your mother is obviously mistaken.
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 20:30:28 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Happy birthday
Message:
Maybe the lady who told you you had a hard spear was coming onto you. D'oh!!! Have a great birthday and may you have bliss consciousness always (-;
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 18:06:19 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Gerry
Subject: Rain on my parade
Message:
Dear Gerry,
Hard spear/pregnant women, are you sure you are on the right forum! :)
Love ya,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 18:25:08 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: mishkat@gateway.net
To: Gerard
Subject: great resolution, Gerry!
Message:
Hi Gerry -
You wrote:
Birthday resolution: Be nice to everyone regardless of size, shape, age, sex, orientation, punctuation, race, creed, or no creed. God I hate having to learn these first grade lessons over and over again.

I liked your resolution - is it OK if I quote it in the future (snicker?) We ARE heading into the New Moon, you know.

I put my e-mail address above, but will try and e-mail you if I can find your address. I've been going thru what they call major life changes - are you sure you want to hear??

Take care, and say hi to Sparky and Bocephus for me. My cats want to know where Sparky got that special keyboard for cat paws. Have you patented it yet.

Love,
Katie

P.S. Trivia fact that you probably already know: Jerry Garcia's given name was Jerome (he was named after Jerome Kern).
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 11:54:01 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Say Happy Birthday, Gerry! :)
Message:
Have a great day, Gerry. Heck, have a great week; I'm feeling generous. You're alright for a right-wing reactionary :-) Enjoy yourself and stay away from 'talk radio.'
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 12:03:58 (EDT)
From: Gerry (kinder,gentler)
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Say Happy Birthday, Gerry! :)
Message:
Thanks Mick,

I wasn't always a right wing reactionary. I used to be a liberal. Then I started my own business, and got mugged.

Ya know what? The only talk radio I can get here in McCleary is Kiro 710, the blow torch out of Seattle. Liberal/middle of the roadish. Dave Ross, ''drive by wisdom for the masses, one listener at a time.'' I tune in occasionally.

Mick did I ever thank you for your thoughtful response to my questions on Soteriolgy/Liberation theology? I appreciated it very much. Darn, I think I deleted it yesterday when I cleared my inbox of over a thousand messages.
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 12:11:53 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Gerry (kinder,gentler)
Subject: Talk Radio (way OT)
Message:
Well, there I go, making generalizations! For some reason, I thought that you listened to talk radio. I tend to listen to NPR all day (well, I do live in Berkeley) and KPFA sometimes, but they get a little too goofy for me sometimes. There is an AM talk radio station in the Bay Area which is reactionary and makes my blood pressure rise; I should go back to listening to college radio.

You were saying that it is cold and rainy where you are today; it has been very cold here. It's hard to believe that it is June since we rarely see the sun. I'm trying to tie up all the loose ends and move to Panama, where I'll never be cold again!

Have a great birthday, Gerry!
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 18:11:32 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: CA vs. PA temps
Message:
Dear Mickey and Gerry,
It was close to 90 all weekend last weekend, and sunny and Jessica, in SF said it was 55 and 65, the coldest May in 20 years! Well PA/Northeast Us, ain't so bad after all I guess! Now if they just would cancel winter and snow maybe I'd be content and stay! :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 19:55:39 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Tom Waits
Message:
I'm gonna see Tom Waits at the Paramount in Oakland Wednesday night! Yahooo! It's gonna be better than Hans Jayanti in Toronto back in 1974! Heck, it'll be better than any of them goofy festivals I attended.
Love,
Mickey
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 20:07:00 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Tom Waits
Message:
Dear Mickey,
Have a great time! I can't wait to tell Jessica, she will be so jealous!!!! :) I just keep remembering this one song where he is talking about a strip club and or one of the strippers and he says she'd make a dead man come, and I know a PRIEST who loves his music, what a riot! :) Do you see why I wouldn't have noticed that you misplaced your period key!!!!
If I was to have a priest you'd be my ONLY choice! :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 20:35:56 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Robyn/Mickey P
Subject: Tom Waits
Message:
Ol '55 is me favorite Tom Waites song, and phantom 409, and Looking for the Heart of Saturday Night...he's great. Have fun Mickey. RObyn, that stripper quote caught me off guard almost choked on my yam burger there, girl!
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 20:49:41 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Tom Waits
Message:
Mickey, Helen, and Robyn -
I like Tom Waits' songs but NOT his voice, although I used to like it before he got too hoarse and raspy. I keep wanting to scream at him to CLEAR HIS THROAT. But maybe he can't...

Anyway, just my opinion.
Love,
Katie

P.S. Don't know if anyone remembers the album of Disney songs by various famous artists, but my 4-year-old nephew's FAVORITE song on that album was Tom Waits' rendition of 'Hi Ho'
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 22:13:18 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Katie
Subject: Tom Waits
Message:
Dear Katie,
That is so funny, Hi Ho! Hi Ho indeed! :) I only remember that one song, I guess I should listen to him again.
I heard he huffed and that was what happened to his voice, I don't know if it is true but I saw him on Johnny Carson or something years ago and he was all slow and drooley so I thought maybe the huffing story was true.
Hey Mickey, let us know if Tom is all drooley, Please! :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 22:26:35 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Tom Waits
Message:
Sheesh, Robyn, that drooley thing is all an act. His stage personality is that of an unsavory tramp kinda-guy. The man is a genius, just listen to the new CD. I like the gruff voice; it is more expressive and fits the personality of the characters in the songs.
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Date: Sat, Jun 05, 1999 at 00:27:43 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Tom Waits
Message:
Dear Mickey,
OK, I've asked Jess to make me a copy of the show JW said was on in SF and now I'll ask her to make a tape of Tom Waits new CD, she will sqwak I am sure but if I bug her long enough she will do it because she really does love me. :)

Re: the drooley thing... so what you are saying is that Tom drooles rather than spend lots more on other more flashy and expensive stage persona thingies. :) Maybe the big M could learn a thing or 2 from Tom, drool instead of bright lights and high electric bills and see how much more money you can rake in!!! :)

I don't mind his voice myself, I have a Leon Redbone tape a friend sent and I think in one song he sounds like Tom Waits.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sat, Jun 05, 1999 at 20:22:22 (EDT)
From: TJ
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Tom Waits
Message:
Mickey,
Tom Waits! Wow! He's someone I bet is great in concert.
Did you see him in 'Down By Law'? A Jim Jarmusch movie
made in 1986. It also had Roberto Benigni and Ellen Barkin in it.
I missed that Toronto festival.
I was on my way to the City of Love and Light.
Seems like a long time ago!
It was a great trip down the East Coast in a VW van, stopping at all the best surfing sites and camping for free. I got to New Orleans, called and was told to stay there because they had too many premies. But I didn't travel all that way to stay in New Orleans, so I went anyways.
Before leaving COLL after 18 months, I was lucky enough to fall
in love with the woman who I'm still blessed to be married to 23 years later.
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 11:59:04 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Say Happy Birthday, Gerry! :)
Message:
Hey Robyn,
I tried to smoke a salmon once but I couldn't keep it lit. I'm a registered Democrat because the Sandinistas don't get to vote in the primaries.
Love,
Mickey
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 14:56:11 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Say Happy Birthday, Gerry! :)
Message:
Happy Birthday!
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 18:16:07 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: smoked fish
Message:
Dear Mickey,
I meant to tell you that Jessica got that Tom Waits CD and LOVES it. It hit me when we were talking about it that it was pretty funny that you, a priest like Tom Waits. I was horrified when Jess first brought his music home 6 years ago and little Jade loved it.
I think if you try smoking an anchovie you may have better luck and if it is to wet you just set it on a light bulb and turn it as it dries. :) Can you guess where that bit of wisdom comes from? :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 15:22:39 (EDT)
From: Carol
Email: rbuce@teleport.com
To: Gerry
Subject: Happy Birthday, Gerry!
Message:
Hi Gerry! And Robyn and all! I have not indulged in spending time reading this site or any other lately. It is something that I miss, but I have other things to do!

Gerry...My husband and I are going to a B&B on the 16th and 17th up your way(maybe). It's near the mouth of the Dosewallops River on Dabob Bay. I don't remeber where you live, but if it's not far off the way maybe we could visit! We'll have two new 3 month old kittens with us. You are welcome to visit her of course!

Enjoy your birthday!!!
Love, Carol
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 15:39:07 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Happy Birthday, Gerry!
Message:
Thanks Carol, I sent you an e-mail before I read this. I'll check a map and get back to you. I hope we can get together again. Of course the kitties are welcome, and Sparkie will love it (I think.)
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Date: Sat, Jun 05, 1999 at 00:55:43 (EDT)
From: JF
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Happy Birthday, Gerry!
Message:
Alright,

So I'm a little late...sue me.

Best wishes.
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 17:32:05 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Time to grow up!
Message:
Time to get mature like me, Ger. Be nice, not spiritual. There's a difference, you know. Don't jump the gun and don't be like Mike. Be like me. Happy birthday, bud. Seriously.
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 18:53:21 (EDT)
From: Gerry's Secret Admirer
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: hi Gerry
Message:
Happy Birthday you sexy thing.

Belinda (?)
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 20:03:39 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Robyn/Gerry
Subject: Say Happy Birthday, Gerry! :)
Message:
Happy Birthday, Gerry! :)

(You want me to do anything else, Robyn?)

I'm just on stuff like birthday patrol lately.
Nothing but good wishes and salutations from this puppy.
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 20:09:47 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Shp
Subject: Sandy
Message:
Dear Sandy,
I just wanted you to know I did see your birthday post to me but it was after the thread went inactive, which happend so fast! It is good to see this place so active!
Anyway thanks for the birthday greetings Sandy. About doing anything else for me....hmmmmmmmm, no I guess not. :) Thanks for asking though.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sat, Jun 05, 1999 at 05:09:31 (EDT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Say Happy Birthday, Gerry! :)
Message:
Belated birthday thingies to you Gerry! I'm probably not going to have time to read all the above posts to you, so I'll just say that I hope it was good!

Cheers, TD.
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Date: Sat, Jun 05, 1999 at 19:52:18 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Robyn
Subject: Katie, Robyn, Gerry...
Message:
Later than ever in my happy birthday saying obligations... Sorry - it must be this problem I have with Geminis.

Well - again - all I can say is I hope it was, thrice!

Luv,
Nigel
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Date: Sat, Jun 05, 1999 at 23:28:59 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: nigel
Subject: Katie, Robyn, Gerry...
Message:
Dear Nigel,
Are you just catching up with Katie's birthday Nigel dear, that was 5/11, you are the last one on that one for sure! :)
Thanks for the greeting, there was so much activity here on my birthday that thread was over the top within 24 hours. I was amazed and pleased that so many were on the forum.
Hope you are well and happy.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 03:10:09 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Robyn
Subject: Oops!
Message:
Thanks Robyn,
I get easily confused in my old age... I must have been mixing up the messenger with the message.

Sorry, Katie, the reference to you should have been addressed to you and Brian re. thanks for all you've done for the forum.

Thanks, Nigel.
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Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 08:50:43 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: mishkat@gateway.net
To: nigel
Subject: Thank you, Nigel
Message:
Dear Nigel -
I got a little confused too, since I definitely remember you wishing me a happy birthday. Anyway, thanks to you, too (I say this on behalf of Brian as well.)

Love,
Katie

P.S. I know I owe you an e-mail and have for some time. Hope all is well with you - everything is OK here, albeit stressful at time.
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Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 15:41:30 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Thanks All, and Jim...
Message:
'''Time to grow up'''

My I remind you ''I'm a fully mature ram''

Sorry I couldn't resist quoting the infamous shp or whatever the heck he's calling himself these days.

PS I hope Laurie doesn't get jealous about your new best friend Sandra. See, Dr Reich was correct. Shp's got a thing for you.
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Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 18:41:25 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Gerry
Subject: Thanks All, and Jim...
Message:
Dear Gerry,
I just had to tell you that I loved this birthday thread, it was like a party, people coming and going, communicating with each other beyond just wishing you happy returns. It was fun! :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 01:00:08 (EDT)
From: No One
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The curse of knowledge
Message:
Along time ago I wrote a letter to Maharaji. In this letter I stated that I was very upset ,with the knowledge and his discourses. The reason I was upset was that even if I was to stop practicing and leave him, that I would, now ,after recieving knowledge always know the difference between ILLUSION and what is REAL.

This is the curse of recieving knowledge.

No matter wether one is an ex-premie or a practicing premie .There is know turning back. Once one recieves knowledge you see both worlds for what they are. If this is true , then this is why so many of you here are so pissed at Maharaji. He did not tell you that did he? Now many of you are screaming and yelling ..let me go..let me go I want to forget, but now I can't, because I know the truth, and I hate you for it.

Maharaji says ...walk if you don't like knowledge...just walk away!

But the problem is that he does not tell you that the transformation is permanent wether you like it or not. What he also does not tell you or maybe he does? Is that if you fight back
it will hurt more. And it is just better to give in. YES YOU CAN WALK but you will still, from then on ,see both worlds inside you.

Now the battle rages fiercer then before you got knowledge compounded by the years of fighting etc. now there are some mighty pissed off people here. and I can see why!

Forget about the guilt Jim boy! Your stuck just like I am. Kicking and screaming. Its a trap! Maharaji can actually show a person the difference between truth and illusion. But once you see it.. you will see it! And never be able to forget it . Know matter how much you call him names.

So my solution to this whole mess is.....

to hate Maharaji....but to still practice knowledge one hour aday.
to hate maharaji....but still go listen to him
to hate Maharaji...but still trust his judgment
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 01:22:31 (EDT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: No One
Subject: The curse of schizophrenia
Message:
more like.

You surely can't be serious, can you? I mean, if you've had that recognition in your life, the difference between Illusion and Reality, why would you even want to turn back?

In a way you are right, in that once you've had that experience, which I assume most attendees here have, your consciousness does change, and stays changed. No matter how much you try to bury the memory of it, it is still there nagging at you from the inside.

But that nagging feeling only becomes a problem when you deny it and walk away, simply because it was a true experience and something inside you will always know that and want to return to it.

Thus far, I'm with you 'No-one', but then you lose me entirely.
You're suggesting that people hate Maharaji, but continue to trust him and practice Knowledge? It's not gonna work my friend. Go find another meditation, maybe something else will take you to that experience, but hate is like black paint. You can mix as many shades of whites, greys, reds.. together as you like, but soon as you throw black in there, the whole can just goes black.

Hatred is a very strong, heavy, negative emotion, it will drag your focus so far away from the experience in your heart you'll have the devil's own job trying to get back. I mean, do whatever you like, but I'd be truly amazed if your recipe works!

Good luck with it.
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 01:37:28 (EDT)
From: JF
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: The curse of avoidance(ot)
Message:
If you can get your head from out your ass long enough to look at what really is going on in terms of expansion, you would see how very wrong you are.

Sorry Rob, but it seems you missed my post to you below.

I've asked you to spell out out for us the details of this 'expansion' that you speak of.

Again, I look forward to reading your reply.

Thanks,

Joe F(aka Nim)
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 02:03:13 (EDT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: JF
Subject: The curse of cursing
Message:
Joeseph,

Sorry, I was wrapped up with that clown with the big 'P' on his t-shirt.

Exact numbers of people receiving Knowledge these are usually given on Maharaji's website and the Enjoyinglife site, following a particular tour or series of events in one country. If you can give me a little time, I can jump over and have a look at what's current, or you can look yourself.

The halls being used for events in all the major cities are becoming too small to accomodate all those who want to come. In the past, an event in Miami Beach would fill the Convention Centre, but mostly with people from all over the United States, Europe, Australia and so on. Those were the days most people here think of as the height of propogation and interest. That actually isn't the case.

Now the same halls are filled by people local to the city, or at least the state, obviously with a certain percentage still from other areas. I don't have access to a breakdown by demographics, may be able to get one.

This is the reason for the implementation of individual and small group satellite downlinks. The Miami/Montreal/Argentina events are the first wave of downlinks, following on from the successful trial run from LA last year. The logistics of this kind of broadcasting make a lot of sense for a growing organisation.

Expansion can also be seen in the growth of contributions to support Elan Vital. Have your ex-p watchdogs Marianne and Mary M, and of course yourself, dig up a few more public records if you want the exact figures. I think you'll find it is in the order of 25-30% pa for the past few years. Don't quote me on that, I haven't got access to that kind of info this time of night.

Anything else I can help you with?
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 03:15:28 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Expanding=Bullshit!
Message:
Bullshit, Rob!

I was there in Long Beach in 95, 96, and 97. I'm not sure of the number of people in attendance, but do know that it looked to me that it was decreasing with time.

The reason that the Miami Convention Center is not large enough is because Maharaji is not doing as many programs in the U.S., Europe, and South America and premies are more desperate and will make the annual pilgrimage to Miami.

The Satellite Broadcasting System (Sat-BS) only further hides the attrition that is going on in the cult because smaller halls can be used and very short notice can be given to avoid the big crowd and big production expenses. As egotistical as it sounds, I wouldn't be surprised if Maharaji is announcing programs with short notice to avoid the Ex-Premies from organizing and showing up.

Eventually, Maharaji will Sat-BS from off-shore on his yacht just like his buddy L. Ron Hubbard. And even after Maharaji dies just like his buddy Elvis (a heart attack while sitting constipated on his golden potty) his pre-recorded stock videos will be beamed to the masses again and again. Thus, the problem of selecting a successor is avoided. I mean, how the hell can you follow his act?
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 23:15:31 (EDT)
From: Lenny Juice
Email: None
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: I got an idea!
Message:
And even after Maharaji dies just like his buddy Elvis (a heart attack while sitting constipated on his golden potty) his pre-recorded stock videos will be beamed to the masses again and again. Thus, the problem of selecting a successor is avoided. I mean, how the hell can you follow his act?

Ooooh , those rawrats are really gonna be rockin when ole Hampster Boy splits!

How about Wadi Sue as the first lesbo satguru?!
Hey, I bet you she even gets KD Lang to sing 'Dance, dance, dance!' NOT Daya!

Wow, I'm gettin constant cravings already!!
Not to mention the munchies.
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Date: Sat, Jun 05, 1999 at 00:15:37 (EDT)
From: No One
Email: None
To: Lenny Juice
Subject: Know idea!
Message:
You speak from a place of wisdom and obviously have an attraction to the Gay community. Do you find the lesbian community offensive to you.

Do you know her personally? Or are you just another little internet face slapper ?

Why don't you go find her and say it to her face? Look her in the eyes and say what you tell all of us. Or are you the kind that drives around schools looking for children?
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Date: Sat, Jun 05, 1999 at 01:04:26 (EDT)
From: Lenny Juice
Email: None
To: No One
Subject: Know idea!
Message:
Gotcha!
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 04:27:04 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Expansion? - Wrong!
Message:
At least in the UK. M has used the same convention centre in Brighton for many years. I remember programs where even the video feed overflow room was full and people were turned away. Recent events there have had spare seats in the main hall.

John.
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 23:53:39 (EDT)
From: JF
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: The curse of cursing
Message:
Anything else I can help you with?

Not really Rob. For the time being I'm just blown away with your sense of 'givingness.'
I'm really just all farklempt Rob:)

Although I do want to thank Roger and JHB for their two excellent posts below which clearly debunk your highly questionable explanation of the so called 'expansion' happening in m's movement. Nothing more to add for the time being.

Ok Rob, I'll catch up with you later.
Like, I said...I'm just too blown away right now...

Regards,
Joseph
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 01:40:53 (EDT)
From: KB
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: back up your words
Message:
Cmon Rob, tell us about 'the difference between
illusion and reality'.

You too, no 1
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 02:31:55 (EDT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: KB
Subject: back up your words
Message:
I wish you guys had real names, even made up ones, feels so weird addressing you as KB or No-One. Whatever..

You want the short answer or the long answer?

The short answer is, if you ever truly experienced Knowledge, you already know the answer. It's not something you forget.

The long answer.

Actually isn't really that long. Here's an example. The illusion is:- you want to know the difference between illusion and reality. The reality is:- you could care less, you're just trying to pick an argument because you see me as 'the enemy'.

Don't you remember your brainwashing? It can't be explained in words, it's something you have to experience. You obviously don't, otherwise you wouldn't have asked the question. Unless of course you accept my definition of reality (above) in which case you would still ask.

You really want to know? Practice Knowledge again for a few years. Or is it one of those 'I just want to see if you knew' kind of questions?

Again, illusion:- I'm a practising premie who engages in banter with ex-premies. Reality:- These are just words which appear on your computer screen, you have no way of knowing who or what I am, or if I even exist.

Clarity, start with clarity, Perceive things as they really are. It's a start, at least.
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 02:38:35 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: back up your words
Message:
'The short answer is, if you ever truly experienced Knowledge, you already know the answer. It's not something you forget.'

I used to say and believe the same thing. It's a real trap Rob and sows the seeds of the cognituive dissonence that separates you(pl) from the rest of humanity.

What makes you think that what you have described in your post is not experienced by people who have not 'received knowledge'?
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 02:54:04 (EDT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: back up your words
Message:
What makes you think that what you have described in your post is not experienced by people who have not 'received knowledge'?

Nothing at all, and I'm not suggesting Knowledge is the only way.
I don't personally have any direct experience of another way, but I've read accounts in books in which people describe pretty much the same kind of understanding.

But that still doesn't detract from the fact that experiencing Knowledge gives you that clarity. How about we say 'experiencing Knowledge also, gives you.....' Is that less elitist?
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 05:38:08 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: back up your words
Message:
'Nothing at all, and I'm not suggesting Knowledge is the only way.'

I'm never sure what premies mean by Knowledge; does it mean practicing the 4-techniques? does it mean that plus a relationship with m?

'But that still doesn't detract from the fact that experiencing Knowledge gives you that clarity. How about we say 'experiencing Knowledge also, gives you.....' Is that less elitist?'

Same as above plus what is 'that clarity'?
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 22:46:50 (EDT)
From: Bill, KB
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: understanding?
Message:
You said 'the same kind of understanding'
What would that be?

ps, I dont see you as the enemy.
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 03:25:43 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Special Experience, Hogwash!
Message:
Hogwash!

I have done other meditation techniques prior to the Big K and I experienced the same, if not more, profound experience of going inside.

Maharaji doesn't not have the market cornered on something that HE admits is so simple and natural. He does have the exclusive right to market his bullshit, sick philosophy that fucks with people's heads and makes them totally reliant and slaves to him.

No One, if you don't like Maharaji you can leave him. You can still meditate, you can still believe in God, you can be who you are and not who you think Maharaji wants you to be.

If you leave Maharaji you will be okay!

I'm so grateful and relieved now that I have chucked Maharaji's headtrip.
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 04:05:45 (EDT)
From: x
Email: x
To: Rob
Subject: The curse of schizophrenia
Message:
x Maharaji says ...walk if you don't like knowledge...just walk away!

Go back/trust, and 'trust-him', {N} {O}, NO spelles, NO.
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 09:27:40 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Experience of K
Message:
In a way you are right, in that once you've had that experience, which I assume most attendees here have, your consciousness does change, and stays changed. No matter how much you try to bury the memory of it, it is still there nagging at you from the inside.

I've never had this 'experience' with K that I hear so many people talking about. I wonder what's required for it. I've heard all about surrender and devotion, blah, blah, blah, but I never responded positively to that tenet. The way I figured it was that M was a servant of God, commisioned by God, to reveal this K to those who had a sincere desire to know God. So, having that sincere desire, I figured that M was obliged to ME, not the other way around. It was his duty, as God's servant, to accomodate me, not me him. This is the way I looked at it. Maybe this is why I never had an 'experience'. Maybe you've got to think M is God, himself, which I never did. So, since I never thought M was God, just his commisioned servant, I never had an experience of God through him. What do you think, Rob? I'm just tossing about ideas. How would you account for your experience?
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 10:37:47 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Experience of K
Message:
Jerry-Ihave to agree with you that in my experience, K wasn't such a huge life transforming thing. I don't feel like I have something incredibly special that I can never forget or something like that. Sure, to me, the meditation is great sometimes, but I meditated before and enjoyed it then also. Also I always felt very happy to be alive and always was 'aware' and 'conscious' and 'grateful' before K. It just is not that big a thing when I look back at all the experiences in my life (it's more of a negative thing, but I'm over that, too)

Jer, did you see that PBS special on aging and the brain? I told Nil about it below,in the 'try using your BRAIN' post. it was great. I thought of you because I know you're into brain research.
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 11:07:17 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Experience of K
Message:
Helen,

I tuned in about halfway through it, right when they were talking about extending the lives of fruit flies. It is fascinating what they're discovering. I think we were born about a century too early. A hundred years from now, they'll probably be living to 150, maybe more. In the meantime, keep doing those aerobics.
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Date: Sat, Jun 05, 1999 at 15:30:29 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: The curse of schizophrenia
Message:
Hi Rob,

I have to agree with you here. So I'm still confused and a fence-sitter. I don't like the feeling so I'm still taking the Prozac!

Why did you need the Prozac if you were doing so well with the K?

Love,

Liz
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 02:24:43 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: No One
Subject: The curse of knowledge
Message:
'The reason I was upset was that even if I was to stop practicing and leave him, that I would, now ,after recieving knowledge always know the difference between ILLUSION and what is REAL. '

You need to understand that in fact you did not 'receive' anything. This is m's (and other gurus) big con....they convince you that you are 'receiving' something that cannot be taken away.

You really sound like you're in a hell.
Just walk away No One.....life is really great...you were born wityh everything you need.....don't let anyone sell you anything different.
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 02:42:48 (EDT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: The curse of being right
Message:
Jethro,

You need to understand that in fact you did not 'receive' anything

life is really great...you were born with everything you need.....

You're actually right on both counts, did you realize that? You sure we're talking about the same Maharaji? I distinctly remember him saying 'You are not receiving this Knowledge, you were born with it, I am merely revealing it to you'

True, we're all born with everything we need, but at birth it is just a potential. We're all born with the same vocal chords as Pavaroti, but I'm totally tone-deaf. Can't sing a note.

Likewise, we're all born with this experience of Knowledge within us, but I didn't have a clue until it the way to access it was revealed to me.

If No-one's in hell, it's because he's mixing his drinks too much.
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 05:35:36 (EDT)
From: x
Email: x
To: Rob
Subject: The curse of being right
Message:
x receiving this Knowledge;; You say you never heard him say Receive This Knowledge, but, I did, do you remember reading or hearing Guru Maharaj Ji say, Ask for that true knowledge of they Holly self and come and receive this Knowledge. Was that Gustonbury, England?
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 05:57:26 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: The curse of being right
Message:
'You're actually right on both counts, did you realize that? '
Yes.

'You sure we're talking about the same Maharaji? '
I am talking about prem pal singh rowatt(aka balyogeshwar, aka maharaji) who is the son of Hans Ji, a former devotee of swami sarupanand.When he(sarupanand) died, 4 of his devotees set themselves up as the next(and only) master, one of them being Hans.
I assume that we are referring to the same person.

'I distinctly remember him saying 'You are not receiving this Knowledge, you were born with it, I am merely revealing it to you''

You left put the addendum that 'only THE perfect master of the time, can reveal this Knowledge to you'.

'True, we're all born with everything we need, but at birth it is just a potential. We're all born with the same vocal chords as Pavaroti, but I'm totally tone-deaf. Can't sing a note.'

Franke Vallie is also tone deaf; but because he so much wanted to sing he became a muliti-octave singer.i.e he fulfilled his heart's desire. So maybe there's hope for you yet, Rob!

'Likewise, we're all born with this experience of Knowledge within us, but I didn't have a clue until it the way to access it was revealed to me. '

Please refer to my above post regarding 'this experience of Knowledge '.

'If No-one's in hell, it's because he's mixing his drinks too much.'

Maybe so.
But also maybe No-one is a sincere devotee and believes all what he has been told.
Many 'paths' teach that if you go against 'what has been shown' you are eternally damned. It may not be said as crudely as I've said it, but that is the sub-text.

Maybe No_one is caught in the dichotomy between believing that m is the one true master, but sets absolutely no example of how to be a human being.
Maybe No-one is really disturbed that hid master won't even answer accusations accusing him of protecting paedophiles.
Maybe No-one really sees that prempal cares for noone(no pun intended) but himself.
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 11:39:22 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: That's a stupid thing to say
Message:
We're all born with the same vocal chords as Pavaroti

Very dumb comment, Rob. Absolutely untrue.
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 04:45:08 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: No One
Subject: The curse of knowledge
Message:
Hi No One,

I think you're giving snot more importance than it deserves.

Anth the Tongue Swallower
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 05:46:45 (EDT)
From: x
Email: x
To: AJW
Subject: The curse of knowledge
Message:
x Your welcome/thank you?
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 06:00:27 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com
To: No One
Subject: Meditation is not the truth
Message:
If you leave Maharaji far, far behind and then at some time, get into meditation, you'll see that it's not the truth. Meditation is just another experience. Sometimes it can be good and sometimes not. It's Maharaji's programming which makes you think it's the truth.

If you get into your breath then your brainwaves change. It can be very restfull when you get into it but it is NOT the ultimate truth. It's another thing you can do with your body and mind to get an experience.

No knowledge was ever given. If you had practised the techniques without Maharaji then the chances of a change in consciousness would be the same. Read the alt.meditation newsgroup to see what I mean.

Very recently I had a severe attack of unstable angina and as I lay in hospital hooked up to intavenus (sp) solutions to thin my blood and open up my arteries and as I was getting oxygen via a mask and connected to ecg machines etc, I felt pretty much at peace. I got into meditation for a while, via my breathing. This had nothing to do with Maharaji or any supposed 'knowledge' but was just my state of mind.

Meditation is a state of mind. Maharaji makes it into something it is not. Anyone can practise meditation (or not practice) if they so desire. There is nothing 'right' or 'wrong' about doing some mediatation. It is not divine knowledge of truth. I also heard some music while I was in hospital because I wore earplugs to help me sleep. Nothing to do with any knowledge.

My friend, you are free to do what you want. You really have no connection to Mr Rawat. He never gave you anything and you are and always will be an individual with free choice. Meditation can be a good experience if and when one can do it, I will totally accept that but it is NOT the be-all-and-end-all of life. You cannot live solely from an experience from meditation. Enjoy and accept any meditation that you may care to freely do but do not fall into the trap of believing that such meditation is the only truth.

Do you love your friend? That's just as true as anything. Do you want to be free? That's also another profound truth. Does pain hurt? Yes that's also the truth. The world is not an illusion. Believe me please, the world is very real and should be taken seriously. Meditation can be another real experience for you but you have to see it in perspective and I mean your OWN perspective that you freely feel and not something which Maharaji fed you. I have been where you are and I know what you're going through. But the nightmare will end. Pray to God because He knows you and loves you very much.

You are meant to LIVE and not to exist in a Hindu shadow of untruth. The most true thing I have ever encountered is love. And every person alive can know that. I don't think Maharaji knows too much about it. Do you?
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 07:05:45 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave (again)
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: And furthermore...
Message:
Talking about love and compassion, which is the true yardstick to go by when we are talking about any truth; I see more love and compassion expressed here than on the pro Maharaji sites. Maharaji does not express too much compassion (British understatement there). I see the ex-premies as being a fairly understanding and compassionate lot. I can name names if you want;

Katie, Robyn, Bill Burke, Joe Whalen, Barney, Roger Drek, Gail, Jim, to name but a few. And if someone asks for help here, they are assured of plenty of posts from people who will try to help. That's your yardstick regarding what is true. Who shows the most love and understanding. You'll see that it's the people here.
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 09:10:49 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: No One
Subject: The curse of knowledge
Message:
I completely disagree with this, No one. It's your thoughts and beliefs about knowledge that make you feel trapped, nothing more, nothing less.
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 09:41:01 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: No One
Subject: WHAT?????
Message:
NoOne: Go listen to him???? What's he going to say that I haven't heard a million times before? YES, you too can have a memory, just stop practicing and your memory will return AND you will realize that he hasn't said anything new for 25 years.

Trust his judgement???? What judgement? Do you think messing around on your wife to be good judgement? Do you think that avoiding (running away) from REAL questions (from people who really did love you) demonstrates good judgement? Do you think wallowing in ill-gotten wealth, that really belongs to premies, while allowing your humanitarian enterprises to fail shows good judgement? Is watching your ashram premies commit suicide without so much as a letter of condolence to the families showing good judgement? Is flying all over the world in your own personal smog-belching AIRLINER-for-two demonstrating his environmental acumen and good judgement? Is pretending to be the Lord of the Universe, and then lying about it later, an example of good judgement? Gee, noone, I just don't see it......and this isn't EVEN CLOSE to the whole list.

BOY, I can't wait to be just like the pseudo-Lord of the Golden Toilets!!!!!
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 17:49:50 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: mishkat@gateway.net
To: No One
Subject: The Curse - to NoOne
Message:
Dear NoOne -
It takes me a long time to answer your posts because they are very thought provoking (I did finally answer 'To Katie and Gail' below.)

You wrote, regarding Maharaji:
The reason I was upset was that even if I was to stop practicing and leave him, that I would, now ,after recieving knowledge always know the difference between ILLUSION and what is REAL.

This is the curse of recieving knowledge.

No matter wether one is an ex-premie or a practicing premie .There is know turning back. Once one recieves knowledge you see both worlds for what they are.


NoOne, I did NOT have this experience when I practiced Knowledge, although I do know what you are talking about when you talk about 'seeing both worlds' as they are. Or at least I *think* I do. I call it 'looking into the void'. It can be very hard to live in this world after you've had an experience like that - 'normal' life often then seem purposeless and unimportant. I don't think it's 'the curse of Knowledge' - in my opinion, it's 'the curse of trying to find the deeper meaning of life in this world.' I have heard and read MANY people talk about this experience, and most of these people never received Maharaji's knowledge. I do think that practicing the techniques can be one pathway to having this experience, but it didn't happen that way for me - in fact, it doesn't happen that way for most people. Maharaji is just ONE person who teaches these particular techniques (read Jean-Michel's web site for further information on this), and there are a lot of other people who have this experience in different ways.

One of the reasons that I followed Maharaji is because the belief system surrounding him and Knowledge seemed to be a framework which explained these feelings and made sense of them. I really needed this framework at the time (these kind of thoughts can make you crazy) but after a while it seemed to be way too simple, and I found it limiting.

If this is true , then this is why so many of you here are so pissed at Maharaji. He did not tell you that did he? Now many of you are screaming and yelling ..let me go..let me go I want to forget, but now I can't, because I know the truth, and I hate you for it.

Actually, Maharaji DID threaten us that if we received Knowledge and didn't practice it, we'd go nuts. I'm embarassed to admit this, but when I received knowledge, I actually believed that Maharaji had put something inside my head that wasn't already there, and that this knowledge WOULD make me crazy if I didn't do meditation. (Obviously I don't believe this any more, but it was a scary thing to believe.)

Forget about the guilt Jim boy! Your stuck just like I am. Kicking and screaming. Its a trap! Maharaji can actually show a person the difference between truth and illusion. But once you see it.. you will see it! And never be able to forget it.

I think you're attributing FAR too much power to Maharaji here. I think it's great that you were able to 'see the difference between truth and illusion' by practicing knowledge. However, as I said, MANY people have had this experience without having anything to do with Maharaji. My experiences along this line were a result of experiencing serious emotional trauma and the death of people who I was close to.

You wrote:
So my solution to this whole mess is.....
to hate Maharaji....but to still practice knowledge one hour a day.
to hate maharaji....but still go listen to him
to hate Maharaji...but still trust his judgment


I don't HATE Maharaji and I never have. I think HATING him is still giving him too much importance. Maharaji is just a person! He does not have a patent on either the knowledge techniques or the 'truth' of life.

Look - if following Maharaji and practicing knowledge helps you make sense out of life, then I don't want to tell you not to do it. I just think that (and this, of course, is my own opinion) that you're mistaking the teacher for something that was always inside you, and that belongs to YOU, not him.
Take care,
Katie
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 18:48:35 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: NoOne
Subject: More to NoOne
Message:
Hi No One -
Here's a link to a site you might enjoy. It has been set up and run by Bobby Manrodt, who is a former premie.

Sacred Transformations
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 18:55:19 (EDT)
From: No One
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: The Curse - to NoOne
Message:
Katie,

TO mike up there a gun,probably gives him the make believe power thing. Or maybe it makes him feel secure and protected. Maybe he just likes guns.

There is a point to this. Hang in there with me a second.

Many christians carry the beads, so all day long they pull them out and it probably gives them the same thing the gun does to mike. To other people they have a nice car with a nice stereo to dream about while they are at work or out with their friends. They park it so they can gaze at it and be constantly reminded that its theirs and it gives them the same feeling as the rosery or the gun to mike up there. Then theres the surfer who can't wait to get out of work and going hang them over the sides. Or maybe they do it before work. Whatever right? Every one has some thing to give them power to overcome something? Or live with something?

See in my life I wanted something that know cop could take from me . I wanted something that I could conceal that know one could find with a metal detector. I wanted something that didn't need a permit to carry. I wanted to always carry it with me ,and not be afraid I would be caught. And put in jail for brandishing it or shooting some one like myself or whatever.

I watched and watched many systems. I saw many people lose it when they lost their powerthings. Like the native americans have power items that give them strength. So do other people.

To ma MY intense love for my own existance in this world and my love for life brings me much joy. And the invisible feeling from inside has gone way beyond the four you know whats. They are just the beginning basic forms. But lately Maharaji has been hinting in his newest sessions that anyone can do the four. But Katie I can tell you with my own experiance that that four are only things to help quiet me down enough for the real stuff to begin. Then all through the day I feel that feeling. Maharaji didn't tell me to feel it! I don't blindly see what I see. That to me and me only is my concealed weapon. That to me is my thing know one can take from me . Not even Mahraji!

Sincerely

No One better then anyone else . Just me!
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 19:11:57 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: No One
Subject: No One's a good example
Message:
of someone discussing this hit sincerely.

No One,

I don't have any really strong expectations for you. I'm sorry to say that but that's just how it goes. This spiritual conditioning, let alone Maharaji's particular brew on top of it, is so fucking toxic. Like, you really think you've got something there and, well, I think it takes a while to really be able to face that idea in the face and see through it. But, I do think that unlike most exes who post here, even the glib, polished guys, you're actually sincere.

I feel for you, man. Just wanted to say that.
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 20:31:18 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Unraveling the mess
Message:
We have here a contradiction. On the one hand there's Maharaji who claims to show people personal peace and yet his followers are often filled with regret, confusion, and everything BUT peace. It's a big mess that Maharaji has made and he has never made any attempt to clear it up. I don't think he would know how to clear it up because his perception is so limited that he cannot see the mess he's made.

The word 'peace' has to be analysed. It means to be free of stress and worry; to feel free and good about things and to feel relaxed about life. Now does Maharaji's 'knowledge' bring about such a state? No. What does happen is that an inevitable conflict is created by Maharaji and his promises of an experience and the true reality of a person's experience. As a premie, my experience was never as Maharaji was saying it should be.

Look, it's quite simple really. To have personal peace, you have to have an absence of conflict. There is no duality of truth and illusion because in peace, it is all real and relevant. Peaple are led to believe that peace of mind is only brought about by practising Maharaji's knowledge and yet practising it can often bring about extreme inner turmoil. My advice to anyone is that your own peace of mind can only come about when you are free of any hold that Maharaji has had over you. When you accept yourself as you are and relax into that and stop trying to attain some peace. You cannot attain peace of mind. You can only relax into it.

Hear a good song and you can feel at peace. Forcing yourself to try and meditate or practise K is not going to bring about personal peace. When you go to bed at night and dream, you can forget all the conflict and just drift away into sweet dreams. Maharaji's knowledge has gone and so has the crazy conflict. Wake up in the morning and perhaps there's this crazy monkey on your shoulder telling you you've got to practise, practise, practise. But that is SO far removed from yourself and your own individual and much needed peace of mind.

In my own experience, if ever I feel at peace from anything, it's because I do it freely and without obligation. You have to retrieve your own ego and identity and then you can begin the road to personal peace, which is a whole lot more than trying to practise some meditation techniques for an hour each day.
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 20:49:01 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Unraveling the mess
Message:
'Unraveling the mess'--what a great name for it. That's exactly what it is--a mess.
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 23:13:44 (EDT)
From: No One
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim is know example either
Message:
Sorry Jim boy,

Have a nice day.See ya. I feel and have felt for two years now that your interviews and your particular thick head have not been a good example for people who do answer with inborn wisdom. Not out born make believe vanity. I'm sorry for that Jim . Your insecure hardhead is a prime example of some one that has become a robot . At least I am a robot of something that wants to bring peace. Not animosity towards my fellow Human beings. You could learn alot from your fellow ex's that do try to answer with love and wisdom rather than picking at people to see how much they can stomach from you.

Sincerely

No One ever as smart as you are?
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 23:50:34 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: No One
Subject: Hey. I was trying to be nice!
Message:
No Text,

I am so hurt I think I'm going to quit posting for the rest of the night. Even robots have feelings, dude.
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Date: Sat, Jun 05, 1999 at 00:25:32 (EDT)
From: No One
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hey. I was trying to be nice!
Message:
Come on JIm,

You want my feelings or not? You said you wanted me to state how I felt?

Look.Alot of times when you ask others for honesty do you really mean it? Jim you don't have to be the cheerleader here. I know that maybe you have to keep up that relentless rep. of yours. So does Maharaji. I know its hard for you to get past your mission here. So it is for Maharaji ,too. You both have reputations to uphold.

Both of you have a hard time admitting when your wrong as I see it.
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Date: Sat, Jun 05, 1999 at 01:10:02 (EDT)
From: JF
Email: None
To: No One
Subject: Hey. I was trying to be nice!
Message:
Whats your problem No One?
M's no good. Jim's no good.

Anyone you like...beside yourself?
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Date: Sat, Jun 05, 1999 at 15:05:53 (EDT)
From: No One
Email: None
To: JF
Subject: Hey. I was trying to be nice!
Message:
Another very shallow reply. Oh well.
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Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 15:03:17 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: No One
Subject: The curse of knowledge
Message:
So my solution to this whole mess is.....

To hate Maharaji ... but still practice knowledge one hour a day.
To hate Maharaji ... but still go listen to him.
To hate Maharaji ... but still trust his judgment.


I know that route. As a result of this site, I can no longer carry on with this stupid way of thinking. Why should I trust the judgment, information, and lifestyle recommendations of someone I have lost respect for? I need to start trusting myself; having negative feelings about someone or something is a very good reason for avoiding the whole trip.

Granted, I will never be the same again, but it is because I have lied to myself for so long. I used MJ and K as a bandaid to avoid looking at my strengths and deficiencies. I was damaged before coming to the cult. It is rather like having a rotten tooth. If left untreated, the poison will eventually spread to the entire body. K is rather like a teething ointment which masks the pain and allows the poison to spread throughout the unsuspecting fool. MJ is a sugar manufacturer--not a dentist.

We are born as blank as a freshly cut piece of oak. We pound nails into that wood through life experiences. Some nails actually split the wood and facilitate wood rot. The prudent person pulls these damaging nails out, but is left with the holes. MJ's wood fill is like the rain--here today and gone tomorrow ('YOUR LOVE IS LIKE THE RAIN BY FUZBEE).

BTW, No One, I have been banned from seeing MJ anymore, unless I want to go to confessional (the special meeting).
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Date: Thurs, Jun 03, 1999 at 23:38:07 (EDT)
From: UNO (aka Sir Dave)
Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com
To: Everyone
Subject: The Lord of love & light
Message:
Good move your Lordship, getting out of India again. Not a good time to be there with the danger of tactical nuclear weapons being exchanged between the Hindu Indians and Muslim Pakistanis.

Some deranged people say this is a hate site. No, we all love you Maharani, even though you hate us. We all have compassion for your lardship although you despise our very existance. No, your Divine Worship; we gladly surrendered our lives to you so that you could play with us like putty in your hands and we accept that you lied to us and spat us out like a bad tasting bitter fruit. But we forgive you, your Divine Holiness.

You see Margarini, you have forgotten us but we have not forgotten you. How's that for true love? ANd even though you will despise your present devotees (students) when they waver and fall off your path of rightiousness, they will not hate you but will think that THEY are the ones in the wrong.

How is your meditation O great Margarini. Are you still at one with the universe and above such things as poking your thumbs in your earholes and does meditation follow YOU around like you said it did? Hey, we mere dust particals never could get it together could we. We always had a bit further to go and always missed the point. Man, I thought you had some love once but when you disowned your old devotees, I could see that you didn't know the meaning of the word.
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 00:20:48 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: UNO (aka Sir Dave)
Subject: The Lord of love & light
Message:
It's a good thing MJ is not in India now. Remember when he told us about the bomb drills he went through at St. Joseph's Academy?
Well, this is not a drill. Gold toilets don't offer much protection from bombs. Didn't he promise to establish peace in the world? You'd think he would start with his native country.

The ways of the Lord are mysterious indeed.
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 01:11:18 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: UNO (aka Sir Dave)
Subject: The Lord of love & light
Message:
Dear Sir,
Another point is that he wasn't so nice when we were his devotees and I think he is distancing himself from his students more and more. That germ phobia maybe? It seems to me that he looks on premies with more and more distan as he becomes more, more what, addicted to his life style but more uncomfortable with the way he has to earn it so he has to start making videos and pay per view, mail order trinkets so as not to lose that income when the programs cease. I see I am ranting so I'll stop now and go start Gerry's birthday thread which is why I came here to start with but I saw your post and got caught up.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 02:30:20 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: ROBYN:The Lord prejudice
Message:
Hi Robyn

Youe post reminded me of one preogram m gave when he was telling us about how racist many Indians were. He said that when they have 'westerners' over for dinner, they(the Indians) throw the plates and cutlery away after the visit for fear of infection......maybe he was talking about himself......oh well just an early morning thought.

Love fron Jethro
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 06:51:58 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Jethro
Subject: ROBYN:The Lord prejudice
Message:
Dear Jethro,
Hey Jethro, nice to hear from you. :)
I'd say either way it was an indication of the way he, individually or as part of his culture, looked down on westerners. Just further proff to me that westerners were a 'corner of the market' to be tapped into and not much, if anything more.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 09:46:13 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: UNO (aka Sir Dave)
Subject: Excuse me, can I ask a
Message:
question? Why is it that the LOTU always runs away from and/or avoids areas of human conflict rather than using his infinite powers to stop it? Particularly when there is a potential nuclear threat involved that would certainly DIRECTLY affect his precious premies lives? Why does he run away and leave his loved-ones behind? Can anyone answer this one?
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