Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 52

From: Jun 10, 1999

To: Jun 19, 1999

Page: 4 Of: 5



JF -:- Report from Montreal -:- Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 17:52:43 (EDT)
__Robyn -:- Report from Montreal -:- Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 19:10:58 (EDT)
____JF -:- In Montreal, thinking of Robyn -:- Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 12:10:15 (EDT)
______Robyn -:- In Montreal, thinking of Robyn -:- Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 13:22:11 (EDT)
__Sir Dave -:- Report from Montreal -:- Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 20:36:58 (EDT)
____JF -:- Its all about Jacques... -:- Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 12:33:38 (EDT)
__Mare -:- Report from Montreal -:- Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 23:43:56 (EDT)
____JF -:- In Montreal, thinking of Mare -:- Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 12:20:25 (EDT)
__Marianne -:- Report from Montreal -:- Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 12:19:19 (EDT)
____JF -:- To Marianne -:- Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 13:02:44 (EDT)

alaya -:- I once had a friend who was !! -:- Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 11:17:35 (EDT)
__Brian -:- I once had a friend who was !! -:- Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 12:14:15 (EDT)
__AJW -:- What you see... -:- Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 12:53:31 (EDT)
__CD -:- I once had a friend who was !! -:- Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 17:16:26 (EDT)
____DC -:- I once had a friend who was !! -:- Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 18:56:12 (EDT)
______CD -:- I once had a friend who was !! -:- Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 22:36:07 (EDT)
______CD -:- completion for Jim -:- Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 22:51:35 (EDT)
________Jim -:- CDCP funding request -:- Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 23:31:46 (EDT)

Oscar -:- Gary Girard -:- Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 02:08:58 (EDT)
__Mary M -:- Gary Girard -:- Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 11:24:37 (EDT)
____Oscar -:- Gary Girard -:- Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 17:47:26 (EDT)

Jim -:- Yet another challenge -:- Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 00:01:04 (EDT)
__KB -:- and one for JIm -:- Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 00:12:19 (EDT)
____Jim -:- That's a great idea -:- Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 00:24:20 (EDT)
______Jim -:- memory like a sieve -:- Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 00:28:02 (EDT)
________cp -:- Nice flowers ! -:- Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 00:48:41 (EDT)
______x -:- That's a great idea -:- Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 06:07:35 (EDT)
________Jim -:- Wrong, x -:- Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 14:54:40 (EDT)
__________x -:- Wrong, x -:- Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 04:19:46 (EDT)
____________x -:- Right on!!! -:- Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 04:49:03 (EDT)
______________x -:- Right on!!! -:- Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 05:09:54 (EDT)
________________Jim -:- Get it -:- Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 14:15:38 (EDT)
__________________Katie -:- The four brothers -:- Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 15:20:04 (EDT)
____________________Katie -:- For more information... -:- Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 19:27:56 (EDT)
__________________Mary m -:- Big J Little j -:- Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 20:22:59 (EDT)
__________________x -:- Get it - DUDE !!! -:- Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 00:32:23 (EDT)
____________________Jim -:- Fuck you too -:- Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 16:42:13 (EDT)
__Rob -:- Manana -:- Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 01:12:12 (EDT)
__Jean-Michel -:- Any Indian specialist? -:- Mon, Jun 14, 1999 at 04:01:31 (EDT)
____KB -:- Any Indian faker -:- Mon, Jun 14, 1999 at 22:57:51 (EDT)

selene -:- sandra didn't answer me :( -:- Fri, Jun 11, 1999 at 23:33:47 (EDT)
__Powerman -:- sandra didn't answer me :( -:- Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 00:53:24 (EDT)
____Selene -:- sandra didn't answer me :( -:- Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 01:09:19 (EDT)
__Selene, Helen & Katie -:- sandra didn't answer me :( -:- Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 03:13:34 (EDT)
____^ Sandra ^ -:- oops (nt) -:- Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 03:20:44 (EDT)
______Powerman -:- women's solidarity -:- Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 04:20:52 (EDT)
________Robyn -:- women's solidarity -:- Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 05:20:01 (EDT)
__________Helen -:- women's solidarity -:- Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 08:46:27 (EDT)
____________Powerman -:- women's solidarity -:- Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 11:27:01 (EDT)
______________Helen -:- women's solidarity -:- Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 14:59:22 (EDT)
________________Powerman -:- women's solidarity -:- Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 15:18:02 (EDT)
____________Selene -:- women's solidarity -:- Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 13:05:07 (EDT)
________Selene -:- women's solidarity -:- Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 13:00:32 (EDT)
__Selene -:- but STILL no answer -:- Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 13:40:39 (EDT)
____Sandra -:- but STILL no answer -:- Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 15:25:44 (EDT)
____Sandra -:- Answer #2 -:- Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 00:12:50 (EDT)
______Powerman -:- Answer #2 -:- Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 00:51:54 (EDT)
______Jim -:- Answer #2 -:- Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 01:11:10 (EDT)
________Sandra -:- Answer #2 - to Jim -:- Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 14:40:58 (EDT)
__________Jim -:- Oh yeah? -:- Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 16:36:52 (EDT)
____________Jim -:- correction -:- Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 17:27:48 (EDT)
____________Sandra -:- Oh yeah? -:- Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 03:38:18 (EDT)
______________Jim -:- You call me 'chowderhead'? -:- Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 11:37:02 (EDT)
______________Selene -:- Oh yeah? -:- Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 13:55:47 (EDT)
________________Powerman -:- Oh yeah? -:- Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 14:34:39 (EDT)
__________________Selene -:- Oh yeah? -:- Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 16:15:43 (EDT)
______Jim -:- Nothing you say makes sense -:- Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 01:20:34 (EDT)
______JW -:- You Miss the Point Entirely -:- Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 15:33:05 (EDT)
________Liz -:- You Miss the Point Entirely -:- Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 14:44:53 (EDT)
__________JW -:- You Miss the Point Entirely -:- Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 19:41:22 (EDT)
____________Liz -:- Wonderful walk -:- Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 01:18:34 (EDT)
______JW -:- Answer #2 -:- Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 15:43:20 (EDT)
______Liz -:- Better Seats -:- Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 14:11:13 (EDT)

Gregg -:- Dalai Lama vs. Guru King Ji -:- Fri, Jun 11, 1999 at 22:22:13 (EDT)
__Helen -:- Dalai Lama vs. Guru King Ji -:- Fri, Jun 11, 1999 at 23:24:38 (EDT)
____Robyn -:- Dalai Lama vs. Guru King Ji -:- Fri, Jun 11, 1999 at 23:31:46 (EDT)
______gregg -:- Dalai Lama vs. Guru King Ji -:- Fri, Jun 11, 1999 at 23:53:22 (EDT)
________Robyn -:- Dalai Lama vs. Guru King Ji -:- Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 05:34:18 (EDT)
__________Helen -:- Chasing down RObyn -:- Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 08:32:02 (EDT)
__________AJW -:- Pete Seeger (ot) -:- Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 14:43:08 (EDT)
____________Robyn -:- Pete Seeger (ot) -:- Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 15:53:50 (EDT)
______________AJW -:- my purse (ot) -:- Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 07:09:38 (EDT)
________________Robyn -:- Folk music -:- Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 09:14:31 (EDT)
__________________AJW -:- Phil Ochs -:- Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 09:39:01 (EDT)
____________________Robyn -:- Phil Ochs -:- Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 10:57:26 (EDT)
______________________Bobby -:- Laura Nyro -:- Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 14:11:50 (EDT)
________________________Helen -:- Laura Nyro -:- Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 15:41:13 (EDT)
________________________Robyn -:- Laura Nyro -:- Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 16:37:27 (EDT)
____________________Bobby -:- Ochs and sensitivity -:- Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 14:02:04 (EDT)
____________________JW -:- Phil Ochs -:- Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 14:29:17 (EDT)
______________________Robyn -:- Smothers Bros. -:- Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 21:00:53 (EDT)
________________________Helen -:- Smothers Bros. -:- Mon, Jun 14, 1999 at 09:17:52 (EDT)
______________________AJW -:- Phil Ochs -:- Mon, Jun 14, 1999 at 14:44:25 (EDT)
________________________Robyn -:- Laura Nyro -:- Mon, Jun 14, 1999 at 22:12:07 (EDT)
__________________Liz -:- Folk music (ot) -:- Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 14:55:16 (EDT)
____________________JHB -:- A Personal Question -:- Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 20:29:00 (EDT)
________________bobby -:- my purse (ot) -:- Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 13:54:18 (EDT)
____gregg -:- Dalai Lama vs. Guru King Ji -:- Fri, Jun 11, 1999 at 23:46:25 (EDT)
______Helen -:- Dalai Lama vs. Guru King Ji -:- Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 08:29:40 (EDT)
________gregg -:- Dalai Lama vs. Guru King Ji -:- Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 10:42:46 (EDT)
____AJW -:- Religions -:- Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 14:34:41 (EDT)
______Helen -:- Religions -:- Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 15:04:22 (EDT)
________Robyn -:- Religions -:- Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 15:58:24 (EDT)
__________Helen -:- Religions -:- Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 16:03:11 (EDT)
____________Robyn -:- Religions -:- Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 16:16:27 (EDT)
______________Helen -:- Robyn and Anthony -:- Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 17:34:55 (EDT)
________________Robyn -:- Robyn and Anthony -:- Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 18:05:33 (EDT)
__________________Helen -:- chit chat to Robyn -:- Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 09:33:34 (EDT)
____________________Robyn -:- chit chat to Robyn -:- Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 11:32:53 (EDT)
______________________Helen -:- chit chat to Robyn -:- Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 16:14:38 (EDT)
________________AJW -:- Robyn and Anthony -:- Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 07:25:25 (EDT)
__________________Helen -:- Robyn and Anthony -:- Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 08:21:18 (EDT)
____________Liz -:- Arti -:- Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 17:57:12 (EDT)
______________gregg -:- soy cheese -:- Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 21:20:38 (EDT)
________________Robyn -:- soy cheese -:- Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 22:44:50 (EDT)
________________Helen -:- tempeh burger -:- Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 23:59:01 (EDT)
__________________gregg -:- kosher ham burger -:- Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 11:38:27 (EDT)
____________________Robyn -:- Oprah Chicken -:- Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 12:14:48 (EDT)
____________________Helen -:- chit chat this and that -:- Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 15:36:54 (EDT)
____________________Helen -:- kosher ham burger -:- Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 16:10:34 (EDT)
______________________gregg -:- kosher ham burger -:- Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 21:39:38 (EDT)
________________________Helen -:- chit chat (ot) -:- Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 23:04:43 (EDT)
__________________________Gerry -:- Judaism v Christianity -:- Mon, Jun 14, 1999 at 11:55:40 (EDT)
____________________________Helen -:- Judaism v Christianity -:- Mon, Jun 14, 1999 at 14:41:13 (EDT)
______________________________gerry -:- Judaism v Christianity -:- Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 22:16:02 (EDT)
____________________________Curly -:- Ahem! -:- Mon, Jun 14, 1999 at 19:15:26 (EDT)
______________________________Gerry Lyngowitz -:- Ahem! -:- Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 22:22:21 (EDT)
________________________Robyn -:- kosher ham burger -:- Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 23:13:18 (EDT)
______________Helen -:- Arti -:- Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 15:50:03 (EDT)
________________Liz -:- Arti -:- Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 14:59:23 (EDT)

Nil -:- Banishment for Nil! -:- Fri, Jun 11, 1999 at 20:35:30 (EDT)
__Jim -:- Even in defeat -:- Fri, Jun 11, 1999 at 21:19:17 (EDT)
__AJW -:- Does this mean... -:- Fri, Jun 11, 1999 at 21:38:33 (EDT)
____Jim -:- No -:- Fri, Jun 11, 1999 at 22:31:13 (EDT)
______AJW -:- because... -:- Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 06:25:22 (EDT)
________Jim -:- Silly idea of freedom -:- Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 15:01:38 (EDT)
__________AJW -:- What's silly about freedom? -:- Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 08:24:50 (EDT)
____________Jim -:- All within reason -:- Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 16:53:13 (EDT)
______________AJW -:- Reason? -:- Mon, Jun 14, 1999 at 03:50:55 (EDT)
________________Jim -:- It's not that hard -:- Mon, Jun 14, 1999 at 11:40:09 (EDT)
__________________AJW -:- Forum Participants -:- Mon, Jun 14, 1999 at 13:57:58 (EDT)
____________________JHB -:- Forum Participants -:- Mon, Jun 14, 1999 at 20:28:56 (EDT)
____________________Jim -:- Forum Participants -:- Mon, Jun 14, 1999 at 22:08:05 (EDT)
______________________AJW -:- Forum Participants -:- Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 04:29:52 (EDT)
______________________Catweasel -:- Jims vision of Sincerity -:- Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 06:48:46 (EDT)
__________JF -:- Silly idea of freedom -:- Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 11:38:46 (EDT)
____________Mary -:- Silly idea of freedom -:- Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 18:39:30 (EDT)
______________Jim -:- For what? -:- Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 21:47:24 (EDT)
________________Mary M -:- For what? -:- Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 22:05:58 (EDT)
__nigel -:- Good luck, Nil... -:- Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 04:01:06 (EDT)
____nigel -:- and if you ever come back... -:- Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 15:37:18 (EDT)
______JF -:- and if you ever come back... -:- Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 16:33:56 (EDT)
________nigel -:- Let's start a collection! -:- Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 18:42:37 (EDT)
__Jerry -:- Banishment for Nil! -:- Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 08:21:24 (EDT)
__Mary M -:- Banishment for Nil! -:- Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 08:44:41 (EDT)
__barney the Fascist -:- YOU CAN'T QUIT - YOU'RE FIRED -:- Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 16:12:23 (EDT)
____AJW -:- YOU CAN'T QUIT - YOU'RE FIRED -:- Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 08:27:47 (EDT)
______barney -:- how do I know what? -:- Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 16:03:09 (EDT)
________Jim -:- Oh, you know -:- Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 17:25:20 (EDT)


Date: Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 17:52:43 (EDT)
From: JF
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Report from Montreal
Message:
Wheedoggie!!!

We got a big week end happening here in Montreal!

Thousands of car racing enthousiasts are here for the GRAND PRIX and the downtown core is hopping with Formula One hoopla and dementia like you wouldn't believe.

Of course by Sunday nite the race will be over and all the fans of the GRAND PRIX will be leaving, to be replaced for a day or so, by approximately 1000 fans of the GRAND PRICK.

And a hoopla and dementia of another kind can then take over.

Geez...don't you guys just wish you were here?!
Alright.
Forget I aked.

BTW, in case you guys are curious...I definitely WILL NOT be attending MJ's 'Celebration of Dementia' event here(or anywhere else for that matter.)

I just feel so well in my seperation from the cult, and my beginning to live my life without my brains being so fully loaded with that cult fog that with time is beginning to lift more and more...that I just see no point in going back. Not even out of a sense of curiosity to see how many people are attending or what MJ has to say. I'm really not interested.

How many people attend, whatever m has to say...it'll be one mahafuckbrain talking to a bunch of mini fuckbrains.

And that's it. That's what it has been, and that's what it will always be. After all, it's a cult.

I really feel a great sense of peace in knowing that I've really had enough of it.

More than enough.

Alright...time for dinner with the folks.
After all the time, energy , and love that I gave to that cancerous,egomaniacal, twisted twit of a gold toilet shitmeister... its really a pleasure to be able to give a little to my parents, perhaps even try to make up for some of the hurt that my cult experience has brought to my entire family.

Well thats my 'report from montreal'.
Nice talkn to you guys and all the best.

Joseph(aka Nim)
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Date: Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 19:10:58 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: JF
Subject: Report from Montreal
Message:
Dear Joseph,
NIM! I don't know if you've mentioned this on the forum before but I am glad I read this post. :)
I also have NO desire to see the little dumpling god, not since I left more than 20 years ago. I did see LOTU and that was good because it reminded me of how I acted, which I had mostly forgotten but I have no interest in seeing the videos that are shown instead of satsang either.
I am so glad for you, that you are feeling so good in your exness.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 12:10:15 (EDT)
From: JF
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: In Montreal, thinking of Robyn
Message:
Hey there Robyn!

Yes I did mention who I really was in a prior post just about a
week ago. I felt the change was long overdue, and there was really no need to continue posting under the 'NIM' pseudonym.

You've been great Robyn. Correction... you ARE great and I thank you for all your support right from my first post here on the forum onwards.

Love to you,

Joey
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Date: Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 13:22:11 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: JF
Subject: In Montreal, thinking of Robyn
Message:
Dear Joey,
Thank you for your kind words. I was just thinking of you the other day, Rats of Nim, Nim Rod...now Joey. I don't know why, as I don't have a problem with people using aliases but it just makes me smile when I think that you feel OK enough now to let us know your name. I toast a glass of that fabulous blueberry wine to you!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 20:36:58 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com
To: JF
Subject: Report from Montreal
Message:
I'll watch some (or all if Damon Hill does well) of the Grand Prix on TV. I suspect the Ferrari cars will be dominating again. The Grand Prix will give people some surprises and something to talk about.

The other event will be the same as ever and nothing knew will come out of it. It has some amusement value in wondering how the ex God in human form will present himself now. But quite frankly, I'm the same as you, I couldn't give a monkey's uncle about THAT event.
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Date: Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 12:33:38 (EDT)
From: JF
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Its all about Jacques...
Message:
As you could probably surmise, Im really not much of a racing fan.
But I can tell you this, you'd probably get a rough ride being a Damon Hill fan in Montreal this week end.

Jacques Villeneuve, the son of the late Canadian/Quebec racing star Gilles Villeneuve is considered very much as a national icon here in Montreal. And whenever he returns to Montreal to race, its considered almost a 'national' event.

But not for me. As soon as I finish this post... I'm taking an hour drive up north and help my friend cut down some trees on his property in the Laurentian mountains.

I'll just pretend they're 'Maharaji' trees and chop away. Should be very therapeutic!

Have a good one Sir D.!
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Date: Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 23:43:56 (EDT)
From: Mare
Email: None
To: JF
Subject: Report from Montreal
Message:
Ah Joseph aka NIM luv,

I really feel a great sense of peace in knowing that I've really had enough of it.

A bouquet of cyber roses to you!

Love,
Mare
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Date: Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 12:20:25 (EDT)
From: JF
Email: None
To: Mare
Subject: In Montreal, thinking of Mare
Message:
Did anybody ever tell you that you're simply

MAREvellous

You are, you know!

Luv,

Joey
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Date: Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 12:19:19 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: JF
Subject: Report from Montreal
Message:
Nim/Joey: That's a great post. I bet your family was glad to have dinner with you. Were you really estranged from them during the time you were involved or did you maintain contact?

I wish you the best with your continued healing. Let the Lotus Feet eat your dust now.

Marianne
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Date: Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 13:02:44 (EDT)
From: JF
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: To Marianne
Message:
Marianne,

The estrangement that I experienced with my family wasn't a physical estrangement. Even in the ashram I was allowed occasional home visits.
But it was psychological and emotional. It had to do with seeing those people who in their own way loved me more than anyone in the world, through the tainted prism of MJ's bullshit worldview.

For example to be looking into my mom or dad's eyes and be thinking the following:

Well you guys gave me this physical birth which brought me into this world of illusion and bondage, BUT MJ has given me a spiritual birth which will bring me to liberation.

I think you can understand how that type of poisonous thinking and relating to our loved ones in that way, was engendered by so much of what we listened to in those early days from m and the mahatmas.

Like I said, its nice to feel that cult fog lift itself out of my brains.

Let the Lotus Feet eat your dust now.

NO!
LET the lotus feet turn to dust FIRST...then I'll be glad to suck it all up... and then spit it all out!!
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Date: Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 11:17:35 (EDT)
From: alaya
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: I once had a friend who was !!
Message:
My friend suggested I should seek knowledge !
I have been searching as to why!!!!!!!!!!
I find your forum indeed a place to question as to why i would need knowledge !
Is there more you can all teach me
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Date: Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 12:14:15 (EDT)
From: Brian
Email: katabria@apk.net
To: alaya
Subject: I once had a friend who was !!
Message:
My friend suggested I should seek knowledge! I have been searching as to why!

I would neither encourage or discourage anyone from learning what life holds to learn. I just think that they should keep their eyes open when their personal search brings them into contact with spirtual con-men like Maharaji.

The question isn't whether or not he's offering snake oil, but rather what the true cost of his free gift is after you've finally been deemed qualified to receive it from him. Life is about learning who YOU are - not pondering who HE is.

Many of the people who've gotten involved with his organization (myself included) have gained from the experience that comes from wanting to know more about themselves. Many have come away bitter because they believed all of his boastful promises regarding the personal rewards to be gained from following him personally through life.

If there was an actual effort on the part of his followers to promote Knowledge independently of promoting Maharaji, then I would say that Elan Vital's product offered as good a way to grow spiritually as any other - and probably a better way than most.

But that is not the case. 'Learning' about Knowledge via Elan Vital involves sitting passively in front of a video screen, and listening to Maharaji drone on endlessly. That, and listening to him drone on in person. Live 'events' are the greatest events of cult life with the little Lord.

On the day that Maharaji sits his own self-promoting ass on a chair in the audience and listens attentively as someone else sits in the chair on the stage and describes the benefits that they have received from the techniques involved - on that day maybe...

Is there more you can all teach me

There is a lot of content on the pages of this site that you might want to read through. Check out the Journeys entries, where people have recorded their own personal stories about involvement with Maharaji's cult.
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Date: Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 12:53:31 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: alaya
Subject: What you see...
Message:
Hi alaya,

If you're investigating 'knowledge', I'd be aware that what you see at the front end is not the same as what goes on in the middle.

Knowledge and Maharaji have been packaged in various ways over the years, but one thing has not changed. At the centre is a trip going on where everyone thinks Maharaji is God walking around in a human body- the 'Perfect Master'.

Ask your friend about this aspect. Who does she think Maharaji is? Who do the people around him think he is? Who doe he think he is?

Ask her what a darshan line is and if she'd like to go through one.

I'd tread carefully. It's a cult. (I'm speaking from experience here).

All the best on your quest.

Doubting Anth (a quest too far).
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Date: Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 17:16:26 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: alaya
Subject: I once had a friend who was !!
Message:
>I find your forum indeed a place to question as to why i would need knowledge !

K is only good if you want to feel what is the you beyond the ideas.
There is a fundamental dilemma as to wether we can think our way to an answer or must experience the answer.
Discover yourself in the stillness inside.
You will find a wide variety of opinions on these pages.

Happy searching,
CD
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Date: Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 18:56:12 (EDT)
From: DC
Email: DC@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: CD
Subject: I once had a friend who was !!
Message:
> There is a fundamental dilemma as to wether we can think our way to an answer or must experience the answer.

How true. Got lost up my own fundament on that one.

> K is only good if you want to feel what is the you beyond the ideas.

And how does a bumblebee manage to fly? A man gotta know his limits.

(Swam in the Mersey, '99.)
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Date: Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 22:36:07 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: DC
Subject: I once had a friend who was !!
Message:
>And how does a bumblebee manage to fly?

Keep the body in shape, work real hard and pay no attention to the skeptics.

>(Swam in the Mersey, '99.)

Blood well great. Lets see a bumbling bee try that one!

>A man gotta know his limits

'I wanna fly, but I can't even swim ... ' - The Kinks

CD
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Date: Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 22:51:35 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: DC
Subject: completion for Jim
Message:
>And how does a bumblebee manage to fly?

'why would anyone pick such a horrible airfoil and try to fly with it? Of course, individual bumblebees have little choice in the matter, but mother nature *could* have chosen another design.'
The key is to recognize that at bee dimensions, Reynolds numbers are low!

Awe, good ole mother nature, the ultimate prankster. Infinity, endless space, a finite life, a radiant sun, people with an itch and the cockroach.

CD
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Date: Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 23:31:46 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: CDCP funding request
Message:
Some funny person, impersonating CD's peepsqueaks about the 'magic' of life wrote:

And how does a bumblebee manage to fly? Why would anyone pick such a horrible airfoil and try to fly with it? Of course, individual bumblebees have little choice in the matter, but mother nature *could* have chosen another design.


to which the real Chris, apparently oblivious to the point of the parody or even that he'd been mocked at all, responded:

The key is to recognize that at bee dimensions, Reynolds numbers are low!

Then, apparently on a roll, and enjoying this new-found voice of passion and candid expression of his most intimate feelings, Chris, at last, opened his heart and spoke the truth of the ages:

Awe, good ole mother nature, the ultimate prankster. Infinity, endless space, a finite life, a radiant sun, people with an itch and the cockroach.

at which point all the staff researchers at the Chris Dickey Communication Project (CDCP) sat still at their work stations, glum and depressed, realizing that they will never, ever crack his code without adequate funding.

Oh WEELLLL.....
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Date: Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 02:08:58 (EDT)
From: Oscar
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Gary Girard
Message:
Anyone know the whereabouts of Gary Girard and Mouni Baba?

And who is Sita Ram?

Oscar de la renta
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Date: Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 11:24:37 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: Oscar
Subject: Gary Girard
Message:
Hi Oscar,

Does Gary Girard have a wife, sister, mother named Madai?

Mare
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Date: Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 17:47:26 (EDT)
From: Oscar
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: Gary Girard
Message:
Sorry, Don't know.

Oscar
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Date: Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 00:01:04 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Yet another challenge
Message:
Okay, dear premies,

Here's yet another new challenge if you're up for it. Take a moment and go over to Maharaji's brother, Guru Maharaji Ji's site:

Family Business

(In case I screwed up the link somehow, here's the url: http://www.manavdharam.org/ )

Then click where it says to.

Then actually listen to Maharaji's brother, Satpal (who now calls himself Guru Maharaj Ji) talk. Similarly, listen to the 'special guests' talk. I know, it's all in Hindi and you can't understand what they're saying but here's the challenge: I dare you to tell me that these guys don't seem every bit as earnest, confident, smitten and devout as Maharaji or any of his 'speical guests'. Go ahead, check it out.

And don't forget, Satpal must be by definition the worst human alive to have tried to steal his brother's divine title and derail his efforts to bring peace to earth. So tell me how evident that is from watching him. Likewise, tell me how obviously empty his devotees are.

Rob? You with me on this? Sandra?
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Date: Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 00:12:19 (EDT)
From: KB
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: and one for JIm
Message:
IS there a way to contact bbji himself?
If he went to england and made such a big deal
about being approved by MOM, then he was playing to
the audience of those that knew something of his past.

He was trying to steal us from prem rawat!
(easier than makeing a devotee from scratch)
especially in the west.

SO maybe he would agree to let an interested person
read what mata ji said about prem way back when.

Can you get it for us?

Also, he might give his own two cents about why
prem is unworthy
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Date: Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 00:24:20 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: KB
Subject: That's a great idea
Message:
Bill,

As you might recall, I did contact BBJ's top dog in Manchester last year but that didn't seem to be any better than talking with Linda Gross. Are there any Indian ex's lurking out there who might be able to help? BBJ's contact numbers are right there for anyone to follow up on. Perhaps some ex who actually knew the guy way back then might be able to strike up a conversation. But I agree, he just has to be a wonderful source for us. An overwhelmingly wonderful one, for that matter.
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Date: Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 00:28:02 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: memory like a sieve
Message:
Oh yeah, I forgot. I already did email the site. No answer though. Why don't you try? Anyone?
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Date: Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 00:48:41 (EDT)
From: cp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Nice flowers !
Message:
I hope that if this was the brother that the court case was with, that the judge didnt give the Youngest God CUSTODY of the devotees that was US.

Maybe they agreed not to talk about each other - if they stay of out of each others' territory.

This renegade that sent the email to JM might throw light on some of it.

It made me wonder in the 70's. If the other brother made the claim to the family crown he was certainly polite because he didnt make any formal announcements to the premeis at the time. Did He?

Interesting that this Maharaji helps people that have experienced natural disasters. That is cool.
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Date: Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 06:07:35 (EDT)
From: x
Email: no
To: Jim
Subject: That's a great idea
Message:
I think that is a devotee/premie of the late Shri M, not a brother of { M } ...........................................
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Date: Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 14:54:40 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: x
Subject: Wrong, x
Message:
No, that's M's brother alright.
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Date: Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 04:19:46 (EDT)
From: x
Email: no
To: Jim
Subject: Wrong, x
Message:
3 brothers, right? Ra------- Bo------- and the oldest one, or oldest brother, right? Doesn’t look like the oldest brother.
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Date: Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 04:49:03 (EDT)
From: x
Email: no
To: x
Subject: Right on!!!
Message:
Satpal Ji Maharaj, '{Not the Title, Guru Maharaj Ji}', the world teacher of humanity, travels across the oceans to talk to people and enlighten them about the human essence i.e. the life force called the spirit. He is enlightened and compassionate and finds joy eternal in serving humanity. He is the exponent of Manav Dharam and respects all religions as the manifestation of the divine and serves all, irrespective of caste, color, creed or nationality. Enlighten the man, enlighten the universe is the mission of his life. He is scientific and secular in his outlook and professes a scientific humanism which stands for the blending of the two. He runs many social charitable organisations dedicated to the service of humanity and instant relief to the victims of natural catastrophes. Manav Dharam in essence is freeing man from internal and external conditioning.

{*} Not a, 'Guru Maharaj Ji', 'Site'. But, sort of that {*******}.

He is not calling him self, Guru Maharaj Ji, but, Satpal Ji Maharaj, and yes, that is different.

Still he sounds wierd. {Oldest brother}

{*} {Not}, www. gurumaharajji.com, but, www.manavdharm.org
. ----------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 05:09:54 (EDT)
From: x
Email: no
To: x
Subject: Right on!!!
Message:
If he is, ,'now', calling himself, 'Guru Maharaj Ji', I do not see it, but, 'now', as a sort of:

Satpal Ji Maharaj, '{Not the Title, Guru Maharaj Ji}', the world teacher of humanity, travels across the oceans to talk to people and enlighten them about the human essence i.e. the life force called the spirit. He is enlightened and compassionate and finds joy eternal in serving humanity. He is the exponent of Manav Dharam and respects all religions as the manifestation of the divine and serves all, irrespective of caste, color, creed or nationality. Enlighten the man, enlighten the universe is the mission of his life. He is scientific and secular in his outlook and professes a scientific humanism which stands for the blending of the two. He runs many social charitable organisations dedicated to the service of humanity and instant relief to the victims of natural catastrophes. Manav Dharam in essence is freeing man from internal and external conditioning.

Not a, {www.}, 'Guru Maharaj Ji', 'Site'. But, sort of {*******}.

He calling him self, Satpal Ji Maharaj.

Still he sounds wierd. {Oldest brother}
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Date: Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 14:15:38 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: x
Subject: Get it
Message:
x,

For once and for all, Satpal = Bal Bhagwan Ji = Satpal Ji Maharaj = Guru Maharaj Ji (yes, he goes by that name too) = the guy on the page. This isn't speculation, dude. Live with it.
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Date: Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 15:20:04 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: x
Subject: The four brothers
Message:
Hi x -
As Jim said, Sat Pal is DEFINITELY the former Bal Bhagwan Ji, who is Maharaji (a.k.a. Prem Pal)'s oldest brother - he's just gained some weight. There was another site up on the net for a while which had pictures of both Sat Pal/Bal Bhagwan Ji AND Bhole Ji, who is the second oldest of Maharaji's brothers, and who is still associated with Sat Pal.

FYI, Raja Ji is the third of the four brothers, and he still travels with Maharaji/Prem Pal.
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Date: Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 19:27:56 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: all
Subject: For more information...
Message:
...check out the following page on this site:

Satguru Too

At the bottom of the page is a link to an account of a program that Sat Pal/Bal Bhagwan Ji gave in England last year.
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Date: Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 20:22:59 (EDT)
From: Mary m
Email: None
To: whoever
Subject: Big J Little j
Message:
Jim,

Surely not once and for all!

Here's another way to remember:

Big Brother = Satpal = Bal Bhagwan Ji = Maharaj Ji (Note - Ji is detached from Mahraj)

Little Brother = Prem Pal Singh Rawat = Maharaji (Note - ji is little and attached to Mahara)

And , I haven't a clue as to what a mahara is. All I know is little bro's ji is attached to it.

L,
Mary
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Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 00:32:23 (EDT)
From: x
Email: no
To: Jim
Subject: Get it - DUDE !!!
Message:
For once and for all, at this time dude, he is useing Satpal Ji Maharaj, live with it dude. {This isn't speculation, dude. Live with it.}

Bal Bhagwan Ji = Satpal and or Satpal Ji Maharaj, and if you want to pull from that a general Guru, Maharaj or Maharaj Ji or whatever, knock your self out dude, but, at this time it just is not comming across that way dude, you understand dude?

I guess you will just have to live with it dude.

x,
For once and for all, Satpal = Bal Bhagwan Ji = Satpal Ji Maharaj = Guru Maharaj Ji (yes, he goes by that name too) = the guy on the page. This isn't speculation, dude. Live with it.

You, {Jim}, dude, have an attitude problem, big time. If you have something to say that you feel is unclear to someone else, just say it, but, if you need to sink to, 'hey dude', smart ass name calling B.S., well, it just shows that you are a shit head, dude.

P.S. I know that, 'Mom', had taken the title back from M and gave it to the oldest brother, this is old old old, history, dude!
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Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 16:42:13 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: x
Subject: Fuck you too
Message:
The fact is, snowflake, Satpal's been using the Guru Maharaj Ji title for years. Go ask any of his followers. I did.

Does he have other titles? Sure. Does his website reflect them? Yeah. So what?
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Date: Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 01:12:12 (EDT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Manana
Message:
Have to be tomorrow, Jim, I got to hit the hay.

(You must be in a different time zone?)
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Date: Mon, Jun 14, 1999 at 04:01:31 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Any Indian specialist?
Message:
Here is some comment I've just received from 'Sitaram':

A brief comment that I believe is somewhat central. You wrote:

I've always believed m was the Lord, as it's been his message for years. I know understand that was merely a belief that maybe makes some sense in the Indian culture...

Actually, it makes little sense in Indian culture, which is polytheistic and therefore inclusive, respects multiplicity and variety, and is certainly non-apostlistic. Your belief makes a great deal of sense in Western Christian culture, and in fact what M's movement is all about is attaching an Indian vocabulary to a monotheistic messianic structure. So to add to the concept of exclusivity of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic traditions manifested in expressions such as: 'the one true God', 'the one true path,' my God is better than your God,' 'The chosen people,' etc., now we also have shades of Christ and Muhammad in satgurus who become 'a synthesis of all faiths,' and the 'highest manifestation of the Divine in human history!' The quote, 'guru is greater than God' when taken totally OUT of the context of the Sanatan Dharma, and stealthily put into the context of montheism, is not only meaningless but serves to support a linear hierarchical thinking which is foreign to Indian culture.
One of the great deceptions of M's movement is that it is indeed traditional Indian, which it is not!

Best wishes,

***


Is BBJ any different?
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Date: Mon, Jun 14, 1999 at 22:57:51 (EDT)
From: KB
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Any Indian faker
Message:
Good point JM,
bbj and the guy JHB mentions above are just a couple
of the many 'gods' on earth that have -attained the
god in form status.
India is, as you know, plagued with loonies that are
godheads.
If the west has it over india in any way it is because they
DO think that there is a self aware intelligence that is
existing and independent and not just a pool of 'oneness'
that is dependent on guru's to merge and become IT so that
it has some thoughts and will and it is no longer an
inert unconcious pool with great 'potentiality'.
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Date: Fri, Jun 11, 1999 at 23:33:47 (EDT)
From: selene
Email: selene@ocean.ccit.arizona.edu
To: Everyone & sandra
Subject: sandra didn't answer me :(
Message:
Wanted to bring this back up from inactive.
Sandra, you had a question... what mold would I put you in?
You remind me of me in a way. Trying to have fun. To enjoy
life. I suspect you like posting here. and you did say you and your friends got a laugh out of the responses.
Good for you. Really.
I hope this forum continues to be a place where that can happen (I have my doubts)

as to Powerman, MY sexist remark would be I think he needs to
get laid. But I want first in line to take care of that so
don't volunteer (as if you would!) and I am kidding

But I do have to wonder
if your being here is just for fun, great. but you do seem to be trying to paint this picture of M and his devotees being so cool and fun and that IS NOT what I saw.
It was the opposite that drove me away 1.5 years ago.
so could you explain?

To Powerman:
And powerman, am I wrong regarding my very very sexist
remark? Meaning, are hormones driving your anger? It is what you would say to me if I had been so 'testy' you'd say I was on the rag or something equally charming.

selene..... back on forum for fun.......oh yeah and of course
I hate that guy - uh - M? Was that his name?
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Date: Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 00:53:24 (EDT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: selene
Subject: sandra didn't answer me :(
Message:
Do you really think you can handle the velocity of Powerman's jets? Many have tried but few have endured. Do you wear your hair in a bun and have trouble on the toilet? Because that's my kinda woman. Or should I say, my kinda person? In any case Selene, I will consider your application for a ride on Powerman's turbo-ride when I get the time.
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Date: Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 01:09:19 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: sandra didn't answer me :(
Message:
Yes I can handle it!.
and if and when you get the time...
maybe you should try someone a little more submissive.
like Martha Stewart or Kathy Lee or ....
I don't know. I just don't know any women who would
be your .... er...equal (?) no er... compatible (?) but, if you are up to learning a lesson.. then I am after all *WEB MISTRESS* selene - although not on this grand scale of ex-premie.org I still feel up to teaching you a thing or two.

where are you Sandra?? Help me out here!!
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Date: Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 03:13:34 (EDT)
From: Selene, Helen & Katie
Email: None
To: selene
Subject: sandra didn't answer me :(
Message:
Katie, Selene & Helen,

Hi there, I've been very busy so I didn't have a chance to get back to you. Thanks for your solidarity and good humor. Just here for a sec tonight, going out again. Anyway, I appreciate your humanity.

Have a fun weekend, Sandra
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Date: Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 03:20:44 (EDT)
From: ^ Sandra ^
Email: None
To: Selene, Helen & Katie
Subject: oops (nt)
Message:
It's to you, not from you ;)
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Date: Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 04:20:52 (EDT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: women's solidarity
Message:
Where will no man; not Magic Johnson, not Don Johnson, not even Powerman, chase a gorgeous woman (not even Sandra)?

Into the Hamster's cage, that's where. No amount of carnal fun is even worth the tepid torture of boredom, the empty pain of blank, expressionless faces in proper attire. Or the tainted void of a dreaded 'video event'.

Truly, male chauvinism meets its end in the safe hallows of women's solidarity, unknowingly provided by the Tepid Hamster. Not a man nor saint he be who says, 'Uh, no, I don't want to get me some, that bad.'

And he walks off, a Powerman for the Ages, his ass whupped by a miniature dumpling of a god; the women he wants, paddling down the river of eternal television evangalism--not getting any younger themselves.
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Date: Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 05:20:01 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Powerman
Subject: women's solidarity
Message:
Dear Powerman,
That was a good post but most of all I LOVED...
'a miniature dumpling of a god', to funny, thanks. :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 08:46:27 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: women's solidarity
Message:
Powerman
I agree with Katie that your comments about Sandra were stereotyping. You tried to paint Sandra as an unattractive asexual woman in sensible shoes, in order to appeal to us to dislike her. I don't think you needed to do this to argue your points about Maharaji with Sandra.

I thought Selene's comment about having to use laxatives occasionally herself has hilarious, especially given the fact that Selene is NOT someone I would characterize as unattractive or asexual. Hi Selene!!!!!

Also Powerman, I work on committees at my kid's school--and I have never worn my hair in a bun!
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Date: Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 11:27:01 (EDT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: women's solidarity
Message:
Well, Helen, that's just so kookie that some cool people use laxatives. And to think... you work on a committee and don't wear your hair in a bun. Mercy me.

The point, Helen, wasn't to accurately portray Sandra. And it wasn't to portray women in an unfavorable light, either.

The point is... if the world were just, someone who tried to pass off their toxic guru as a cool, rock star, would possess the foibles of a fashionless, constipated imbecile.

I wasn't trying to appeal to you to dislike Sandra. If you've suffered in a cult, it would be reasonable to resent the actions of someone who was trying to spread the same lies that caused your suffering.

My post was meant for those who already disliked Sandra and could see the insanity of nature, that she wasn't born with a clown hat permanently sewn to her head.

Trying to discuss or argue with Sandra about maharaji would earn me my own clown hat, which I already struggle daily, to keep off my head. Wanna borrow it?
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Date: Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 14:59:22 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: women's solidarity
Message:
I think I sort of get the clown hat imagery (sort of). It's kinda oblique but I get it. You're just too subtle, Powerman!

You do have a point there that trying to argue with premies has its absurd & clownish moments.
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Date: Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 15:18:02 (EDT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: women's solidarity
Message:
I apologize for being too subtle, Helen. I just mean that if the universe were a fair place, when someone joined the Hamster's fold, a tattoo would automatically appear on their forehead, saying 'Moron'. Attempts to proselytize would cause the tattoo to morph into a picture of a devil. And further efforts to decieve, by describing the guru as a cool, easygoing, fashionable guy, would be met with unflinching constipation and corresponding android behavior in all aspects of their life. It's only fair.
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Date: Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 13:05:07 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: women's solidarity
Message:
Hi Helen
Geez, thanks. I am blushing. You know Denise is first in line
as my girl friend though...
I wear my hair up but all thesse 'non existant' curls (hahahaha) keep popping out.
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Date: Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 13:00:32 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: women's solidarity
Message:
That was cute. I am not into the dumpling.
If you behave yourself you never know what might happen.
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Date: Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 13:40:39 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Sandra
Subject: but STILL no answer
Message:
Hi again Sandra. Above and beyond Powerman
( it's Not so hard to be there!) I asked you a question. I seem to have this problem often. I ask a premie a question and get a response, but not the answer to my qestion. CD is a master at it. Here is what I asked:

But I do have to wonder if your being here is just for fun, great. but you do seem to be trying to paint this picture of M and his devotees being so cool and fun and that IS NOT what I saw. It was the opposite that drove me away 1.5 years ago.
so could you explain?

Just thought I'd try again. How is it fun? People were rude, catty.. in a semi trance state half the time. Mean to shuttle drivers, to each other. I just don't get it.
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Date: Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 15:25:44 (EDT)
From: Sandra
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: but STILL no answer
Message:
Hi Selene,

I didn't mean to overlook your question but just haven't had much time the last few days. I might not have any time this weekend but when I do I'll be happy to answer. The short answer is that I've met both fun-loving, intelligent, inspired people around M and trippy, cultic little politicians, thankfully more of the former. I'll answer more fully when I get a chance.

Enjoy your weekend, Sandra
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Date: Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 00:12:50 (EDT)
From: Sandra
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Answer #2
Message:
Hi Selene,

First of all, I'm not trying to paint a picture, I'm saying how it is for me. If you're asking if there are premies who are less than conscious, uptight or out in some unknown zone, then yes to all three. Like anywhere else, you gravitate to people who you feel good with and who don't strike you as moronic or trippy. All people are different, knowledge or no knowledge.

I don't know if it was you but someone talked about premies being more 'vindictive and back-stabbing' than most people. I just don't see that and I'm more than happy to concede that a lot of crap has gone on 'in the name ' of Maharaji. In fact, it's hard to imagine more mean-spiritedness in communication than I've seen on this page since I've been reading it. Take a look! It takes an effort not to lump 'the exes' together the way that many here lump 'the premies.' To me that type of generalization and stereotyping is pure horseshit and not worthy of any reasonable people. Believe me, you wouldn't want to be lumped in with the projection of some of the more...ahem, verbal members of this forum. Unkind, insensitive, joyless, frustrated, stuck, abusive, pseudo-macho cyber-snipers...trying to shoot people out of imaginary trees with name-calling, random insults and other advanced 4th-grade techniques. I have to remind myself, everyone is different, don't mush them together into a big glomp.

So, if you had bad experiences with premies, that's a shame. Someone else (I think JW) made a comment about their disappointment that knowledge hadn't affected people enough to change their dealings with people or personal 'emanation.' 'Peace on earth begins within you' etc. I've seen it make a great difference to many but only with the people that really use it and aren't just trying to get better seats or move up some invisible ladder of fame or power in the premie world. Power is a big trap in all phases of life and it's no different there.

There is also, besides all this, a huge wellspring of very powerful feeling, sensation, love (whatever word doesn't make you barf) that is completely built-in and priceless to me. That's the thing that can and does lead to real improvement in the quality and depth of your life. But only if one actually uses it, not talks about it or just finds a new social scene via it.

There you are. That's my attempt at an answer.

Now, back to my weekend. Hope you're enjoying yours.

Take care, Sandra
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Date: Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 00:51:54 (EDT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: Sandra
Subject: Answer #2
Message:
You're wrong, Sandra. Premies were assholes. I think I was an asshole, too. I think if you really practised knowledge like Guru Maharaj Ji said, you were an asshole, too.

Adopting the notion that Guru Maharaj Ji is the Lord, and that anything meaningful was in direct service to him, pre-empted any possibility of being a thoughtful, caring human being.

And subscribing to that narrow view neccesarily included rejecting friends and family, and abusing any relationship that was seen as a threat to one's pursuit of devotion. It really was a cult, and you provide evidence that it still is.

This dirty little prick, your precious Guru, claimed he was God. People staked their lives on it. And when it was convenient, the Guru changed hats. He became a 'teacher' and pretended he never said he was God. He left in his wake a big mess and took no blame.

Now, with an ugly arrogance, and camouflaged anger, you protect your silly lies by promoting the most plastic, boring religion the world has seen in a long time.

No, your Guru isn't God, Sandra. And many of us here, took a big loss in being honest with ourselves about it. Your pompous and cavalier dismissal of that, only reveals what a dishonest and little person you are. Take some comfort in knowing that we used to be like that too.
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Date: Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 01:11:10 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sandra
Subject: Answer #2
Message:
First of all, I'm not trying to paint a picture, I'm saying how it is for me.

This is a very confusing and illogical way to think or express your self. 'Trying to paint a picture' and 'saying how it is for [you]' are not mutually exclusive although your statement implies that they are.

Beyond that, I wonder where your conscience is. I really do.
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Date: Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 14:40:58 (EDT)
From: Sandra
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Answer #2 - to Jim
Message:
The 'paint a picture' phrase was Selene's and referred to her implying that I was concocting a rose-colored glasses portrait of the premie world.

My conscience is just fine. And my family and many old friends don't view me as lobotomized, sanitized or roboticised in any way. They've seen me all along, through numerous eras and changes. It's their assessment that would matter to me, not that of a stranger on a screen who clearly has his problems 'playing with the other children.'
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Date: Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 16:36:52 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sandra
Subject: Oh yeah?
Message:
The 'paint a picture' phrase was Selene's and referred to her implying that I was concocting a rose-colored glasses portrait of the premie world.

No, Sandra, it looks like you missed my point too which was that the two were mutually exclusive. You know, it's more than possible for someone to be both 'painting a picture' and describing how things are for them.

My conscience is just fine. And my family and many old friends don't view me as lobotomized, sanitized or roboticised in any way. They've seen me all along, through numerous eras and changes. It's their assessment that would matter to me, not that of a stranger on a screen who clearly has his problems 'playing with the other children.'

I dare you to ask one for a little note to that effect. Go ahead, ask any one of them them if they'd come here and vouch for their Sandra's involvement with the guru. This I'd love to see.
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Date: Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 17:27:48 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: correction
Message:
No, Sandra, it looks like you missed my point too which was that the two were mutually exclusive. You know, it's more than possible for someone to be both 'painting a picture' and describing how things are for them.

should read:

'No, Sandra, it looks like you missed my point too which was that the two were not mutually exclusive. You know, it's more than possible for someone to be both 'painting a picture' and describing how things are for them.'
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Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 03:38:18 (EDT)
From: Sandra
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Oh yeah?
Message:
Oh Jim,

I speak English. In fact, it's my first language in case you haven't noticed. OF COURSE painting a picture and describing your own experience are not mutually exclusive...Jesus! Talk about picking meaningless, miniscule nits. I thought you had a girlfriend...does she sit around waiting while you examine NOTHING under a microscope?

If you could possibly understand content as well as context, you'd know that the way Selene used 'painting a picture' was the way someone else would use spinning or manipulating images to achieve a less-than-true portrait, as opposed to just telling it like it is, as you see it. Got it yet? Selene, help me here!! Please, I'm about to lose it with this chowderhead.

Sandra
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Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 11:37:02 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sandra
Subject: You call me 'chowderhead'?
Message:
Sandra,

I know all you know and then some. For one thing, I know you've hitched your wagon to a painted star and that your life is completely wasted as a result. So don't get so smug with me, girlfriend. You're living in your own little plastic bubble. Someday you'll wipe that smile of your face. Do I care when? Naw. Why bother?
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Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 13:55:47 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Sandra
Subject: Oh yeah?
Message:
Hi Sandra
Jim is much more passionate about all this stuff than I am.
My 18 or so months away from M have made me distanced from it. At times I will read something and it sparks my interest - I like teasing Powerman but he is so teasable I can't resist.

Forum was very helpful to me initially. Jim was too. Sorry I can't help you out with Jim. I like him for one thing and his interest gives him a better edge.

I talk more at night. Stay tuned.Maybe I'll have my own
Answer#2 or have a different outlook. Freedom from a cult has given me that choice. Whether a privilege -- (a special advantage or immunity or benefit not enjoyed by all) or a right.
(sheesh!)
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Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 14:34:39 (EDT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Oh yeah?
Message:
I'm not your love-knuckle, Selene. If you need a boy-toy, look for an enlisted man; not a captain like Powerman. Powerman is a leader, not a follower.

And as far as giving these bonehead premies a good thrashing, just remember, not everything is about Selene. There are other things in this life.
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Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 16:15:43 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: PowerLover
Subject: Oh yeah?
Message:
Hold your water Powerman. Of course you need to thrash premies. All that testosterone needs some outlet. You just got me going talking about laxatives.
Don't hate me for playing with you. I was just trying to find that good that is in everyone, every guy, no matter how small it is or for however short a duration it is there.
I imagine enlisted men are able to stand at attention for longer periods of time..
And, christ, doesn't this place have enough leaders yet??????

now.... salute me... and bow down to me vhile you are at it
*Mistress Selene*
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Date: Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 01:20:34 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sandra
Subject: Nothing you say makes sense
Message:
In fact, it's hard to imagine more mean-spiritedness in communication than I've seen on this page since I've been reading it. Take a look! It takes an effort not to lump 'the exes' together the way that many here lump 'the premies.' To me that type of generalization and stereotyping is pure horseshit and not worthy of any reasonable people.

Sandra,

What planet are you on right now? Go over to ELK and read all the 'Days', 'Lives' and 'Expressions'. Then tell us about premie individuality.

And as for the 'mean-spiritedness' you find here, don't you know why? It's really trying at times putting up with revisionism. Until you've been there, you can't imagine how bizarre it feels. It's like someone's trying to rob your past. It's freaky. Now the revisionist, it's not like that at all for him. He gets to smile, smile, laugh, whatever. His conscience is disengaged. It's left to others to react to his lies. Capiche?
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Date: Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 15:33:05 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Sandra
Subject: You Miss the Point Entirely
Message:
I don't know if it was you but someone talked about premies being more vindictive and back-stabbing' than most people. I just don't see that and I'm more than happy to concede that a lot of crap has gone on 'in the name ' of Maharaji. In fact, it's hard to imagine more mean-spiritedness incommunication than I've seen on this page since I've been reading it.

Yes, I did find many premies vindictive and back-stabbing people, but they certainly weren't all that way, of course not. But you miss the point. As you seem to agree, premies are no happier or unhappiers, kind or nasty, peaceful or stressed-out, than anybody else. And Maharaji 'spreading knowledge' the pathetic amount he has, hasn't done anything regarding bringing 'peace' to the world, despite the fact the promised that and many of us got involved to be a part of that. So 'knowledge' doesn't manifest externally and this is a big downgrade of what M is supposed to be about from what he originally advertised himself as being. And for me, something that doesn't manifest externally in people's lives isn't real. It's just some internal fantasy, nice feeling, belief system, with perhaps some relaxation or experience you get in meditation from slowing down the thought processes.

I've seen it make a great difference to many but only with the people that really use it

How, exactly Sandra, have you seen this? How did this manifest in people's lives, and I don't mean just activating the programmed process of attributing everything good to Maharaji and knowledge and everything bad to the mind, the world, bad luck, or the person. I mean something real. How?

As far as 'using' knowlege, my experience has been that when I stopped believing in it, it stopped 'working' in the sense that I saw that it wasn't really having any effect on me other than what was already happening. It's when I dumped the whole thing that life really improved. But this is quite subjective, and if you are having a good time, great. Just be careful suggesting that it would do the same for others.
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Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 14:44:53 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: You Miss the Point Entirely
Message:
J.W.

I really like what you write. You seem very clear about the whole thing. I also have many of the same thoughts as you. I keep hoping that by dumping the whole thing my life will improve but I haven't reached that point yet so I'm still taking the prozac! It's getting a little frustrating.

Yours in frustration,

Liz
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Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 19:41:22 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: You Miss the Point Entirely
Message:
Hey, Liz:

I've been away from it all a very long time, and I've thought a lot about it, but it wasn't until a couple of years ago when this website started that I started to express the way I felt about things. It really settled a lot of things for me, among people who could relate to what I was talking about, and just expressing it helped clarify my feelings.

What I mean about my life improving is that I started to get out and experience life again, after feeling so suffocated in M's weird world. I felt like me again; the heavens didn't open up and swallow me, and I felt so much better not repressing my thoughts, values and feelings, which I had done as a premie. It wasn't like I became instantly happy, but I have to say I wasn't happy as a premie either -- in fact I was miserable much of the time.

Sorry about the frustration, Liz. I hope it gets better. If Prozac helps, that's great. I know a number of people who really benefit from Prozac. I really think it's helped a lot of people.
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Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 01:18:34 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Wonderful walk
Message:
Dear JW,

I had a wonderful walk with my dog tonight before dusk. The sky was a dusky pink & purple. We watched a young white-tailed deer cross the river. I collected rocks and my dog attempted to chase the deer in vain.

Ah - paradise!

Liz
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Date: Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 15:43:20 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Sandra
Subject: Answer #2
Message:
I'm more than happy to concede that a lot of crap has gone on 'in the name ' of Maharaji.

And how much 'crap' has gone in BY Maharaji, or INSTIGATED by Maharaji. Much more than you will allow yourself to think, Sandra, if you DO think about this.

And as for 'lumping' premies, there are a wide variation of opinions on that and I'm sure you are not suggesting that everyone here does that. They don't. In fact, I was talking recently to 'premies' who really despise Maharaji. Think he is greedy and inept, but they are still 'premies' mostly because they are afraid of what would happen to them if they stopped. It was weird. In fact, one guy says he never gives money anymore because he said he was sure Maharaji would just waste it on some luxury for himself or for the honchos around him. I asked them why they stay involved taking his shit, but it was like it had been so long they didn't know anything else. These are nice people. I felt sorry for them. So, no, I don't think all premies are the same, but I have to say, most of the premies who show up to defend the cult can be pretty obnoxious and say some pretty ridiculous, revisionist stuff, that can get me a little pissed.
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Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 14:11:13 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Sandra
Subject: Better Seats
Message:
It's such a weird scenerio, Sandra. It's dificult not to get caught up in the better seat syndrome. Now tell me it REALLY doesn't make any difference to you if you are in the front row or the back bleachers. The feeling inside that makes us feel Sooooo blissful is much to close to success, power and all the other naughty things you mentioned especially for those 'chosen few' that sit in the roped off section. Heaven forbid and 'bongos' that try to fill an empty seat there.

Love,

Liz
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Date: Fri, Jun 11, 1999 at 22:22:13 (EDT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Dalai Lama vs. Guru King Ji
Message:
Yeah, it would make a good Celebrity Death Match (if you've ever seen the MTV show).

But what I had in mind was what a premie told me last summer after I told her what a good experience I had had attending a HH Dalai Lama show. Lecture. Whatever.

She said (dismissively), 'It's all inside of you.'

In other words, it wasn't the D. Lama, it was GMJ's Knowledge.

Hmmm. I guess if you have a good experience with GMJ, it's GMJ's grace. If you have a good experience elsewhere, it's GMJ's grace.

Try telling a premie after a festival (or whatever they call them these days) that it wasn't Guru Maharaj Ji...it was 'inside them.'

So where is it? Can you have it both ways?

No.
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Date: Fri, Jun 11, 1999 at 23:24:38 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Dalai Lama vs. Guru King Ji
Message:
I abhor the way some premies dismiss other spiritual expressions and experiences. I tried to share my feelings about my religion with a premie friend and she totallly dismissed it. 'Well, knowledge ISN'T a religion' she said (you know the whole shpiel, Maharaji is the true direct experience of God, whereas all religions are Mind). It was sad because she really IS a VERY good friend, but on this subject I could see that she felt that M was 'all that' and there was nothing else. In allfairness, she can't understand why anyone would ever leave the fountain of Maharaji who in her mind has given her so much. I wanted to share with her what my religion meant to me but she just couldn't grasp it, that I had moved away from M and had found something more meaningful to me.
I wouldn't mind so much hearing premies share their experiences of knowledge if they in turn, would take seriously the experiences in life that are meaningful to people that have nothing to do with M.

I guess thinking one has 'the answer' is a barrier to real sharing.
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Date: Fri, Jun 11, 1999 at 23:31:46 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Helen
Subject: Dalai Lama vs. Guru King Ji
Message:
Dear Helen,
I think there are so many different way to relate spiritually or religously to give people a way to relate that they can connect with. I think it is the connection not the means that is the goal. I don't even think of what I feel/believe as god necessarily, maybe it is and maybe it isn't but it is a connection to something beyond my physical being making me part of a bigger picture.
The way you describe your friend's thoughts it sounds like she could be Catholic, bet she wouldn't like that! We were taught that everyone in anyother religion was going to Hell! How self centered!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Jun 11, 1999 at 23:53:22 (EDT)
From: gregg
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Dalai Lama vs. Guru King Ji
Message:
Robyn, you are right, although, it's not the connection itself that is important, it's what IS...beyond connecting with an Other...It's about dropping all attitudes connections and beliefs and resting in What Is. That's my take on it, anyway.

By the way, the friend I was talking about is an ex-Latin American Catholic. Maybe the True Believer thing crosses cultures/religions.
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Date: Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 05:34:18 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: gregg
Subject: Dalai Lama vs. Guru King Ji
Message:
Dear Gregg,
I always believed K was just a thing that was possible for all human beings. I recieved K in Brooklyn, NYC and lived in NJ with an upward, in the cult, moving house father but somehow was so lucky that I missed a lot of the control and stupid dictates from the 'little dumpling of a god' (just read Powerman say that and loved it :).
I didn't hear that MY experience in meditation was FROM M or if I heard it I was to blissed out to listen to the words and comprehend them! :)
It is like I was in a little safe pocket within the cult and/or it was just a good time to get in. I gave my paycheck gladly but all my necessities were taken care of and on my weekends I was given money to take the 4 hour trip to see my boyfriend and given the money to see Arlo Guthrie and Pete Seger twice!
Then I went to see my boyfriend and decided to stay and keep my car which I never drove when I was at the premie house. Well they came up after me and that was my first drip. It was laughable and I didn't for a moment consider their demand, thank god.
Also I'd just like to point out that your friend WAS/IS a Latin American and an ex-Catholic! :) I am an Italian American (or an American Italian as a friend in England says) and and ex-Catholic
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Date: Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 08:32:02 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Chasing down RObyn
Message:
Ha ha--they came after you Robyn? That's pretty funny.
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Date: Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 14:43:08 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Pete Seeger (ot)
Message:
Hey Robyn,

You saw Pete Seeger? He was one of my early folk heros. Were you into the folk scene in the 60s.

To my eternal shame, I was one of the hecklers on the Dylan tour of 66, when he went electric.

What about Phil Ochs? Ever see him?

Anth (only 18, got a ruptured spleen, always carry a purse, eyes like a bat, feet are flat and ashma's getting worse).
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Date: Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 15:53:50 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: AJW
Subject: Pete Seeger (ot)
Message:
Dear Anth,
Yeah, Pete Seger is great and he was great friends with Arlo's dad Woody Guthrie so it was even better because they really loved each other and it came across through at both concerts.
I never saw Phil Ochs but I LOVE his music too! I haven't heard him in ages. I can't even remember the name of my favorite song but I think it was on the album with A Circle of Friends. Hmmmmmmmm, maybe it was Miranda, maybe the words and music will come back to me.
Why do you carry a purse? Such a silly man. :) Won't your wife carry stuff for you in her purse?
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 07:09:38 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: anthginn@yahoo.com
To: Robyn
Subject: my purse (ot)
Message:
Because it matches my eye shadow and my car's bonnet, silly.

When I was 15, and life was popping out all over, I heard Pete Seegers 'Live at Carnegie Hall' LP, it knocked me out. I'd started to recognise racism, and was aware of apartheid in right wing countries like South Africa and America, and all sorts of feelings were stirring up inside. The 'protest movement' of the early 60s, really grabbed my imagination.

I found out there was a Folk Music club in Nottingham, where I grew up, and went along one Sunday night. I sat on the front row, sat through an hour of traditional folk music, there was a coffee break, then the special guest- Phil Ochs.

I sat about 2 metres away from him all night. It was truly a momentous evening, and some of those songs are still ringing in my heart today.

I loved 'I Ain't Marchin' Any More'. I don't know if you know that one, but the funny thing is I thought he was singing 'I ain't American any more.' I loved the idea of disowning your country because of its awful behaviour.

After the concert I walked out of the hall and he was standing outside the door, on the street, with his guitar case. I thought, 'I could ask him if he's got anywhere to stay and take him home.'

Alas Robyn, I didn't- one of my eternal regrets in life.

You ever hear of Jackson C Frank?

Do you know Phil Ochs version of Alfred Noyes poem, 'The Highwayman'.

Anth the Fan.
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Date: Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 09:14:31 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: AJW
Subject: Folk music
Message:
Dear Anth,
I don't know Jackson C. Frank's music and I can't listen to my old folk music records as my turntable needle is broken and my sister had most of the Phil Och's albums. I am not good with names of songs, albums and lots of musician names but I bet I would recognize the Phil Och's stuff as I just love his music and have heard quite a bit of it. Wonder what ever became of him? Yeah, I would have regretted not at least talking to him even if he had a place to stay. Don't you wonder if he would have been glad to talk or disinterested? I wonder now myself.
Years later I saw Seals and Croft in concert and it was a great concert and they were into some weird religion, can't remember what and they said they would stay and talk to anyone about it. Well I wanted to stay just to talk to them and see what they were like but alas I wasn't driving and my friend who was didn't want to stay. I have always enjoyed getting to know people or seeing what they are like under the surface.
It has been nice getting to 'see' a bit of you under the surface as well. :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 09:39:01 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Phil Ochs
Message:
Alas,

He commited suicide, sometime around 1970. He'd tried to follow Dylan, and go 'electric' but it didn't work out somehow. He became depressed and alcoholic and eventually took his own life. It was a very sad loss because he wrote some really great songs. There's a website dedicated to him but I haven't got the address.

What's all this 'Dog eats Porcupine' stuff Robyn, where do you live?

I live in a ground floor flat in South London, with traffic whizzing outside my bedroom window 23 and a half hours a day.

I'll sort out the tutu jpeg, but don't hold your breath.

Anth the chatty.
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Date: Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 10:57:26 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: AJW
Subject: Phil Ochs
Message:
Dear Anth,
I never heard Anth as a short name for Anthony and I really like it. I write to a Tony and he doesn't like much, I'll have to tell him about Anth.
That is so sad about Phil Ochs, I'll have to do a search for his site. Did you ever hear of Laura Nero? Not folk but some of my favorite music and she died of a heroine over dose a couple years ago. Money and fame aren't everything so I guess there is still hope for me! :)
I live in the country, I use to live WAY out but this is just out! Lots of open space but 3 and almost 4 houses around mine but when it is all green we are almost totally hidden from each other. My puppies are out right now playing in the fields and woods, don' think I could do the city thing again, it has been 20 years since I lived in a city.
I am holding my breath so you'd better get looking!! Just kidding of course. :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 14:11:50 (EDT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Laura Nyro
Message:
I love Laura Nyro also. She died two years ago, but not of a heroin overdose that I had heard. I thought she died of some physical illness.

Last year I got a double CD of her music. Some truly great stuff. I especially like Stone Soul Picnic, When I Die and Save the Country.
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Date: Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 15:41:13 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: Laura Nyro
Message:
HI BOBBY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Laura Nyro died of ovarian cancer. ):
I love her also. I ADORE her.

How the hell are you???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? HOPE YOU ARE WELL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Love
Helen
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Date: Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 16:37:27 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Bobby
Subject: Laura Nyro
Message:
Dear Bobby,
Hi! Nice to see you here! Maybe I am wrong about the heroine, I hope so, what a talent. I'd seen her in concert twice, fabulous. I have her records but no CD's or tapes. I'll have to tape your CD next time I see you. :) She wrote Stone Souled Picnic, Up on the Roof and other really popular songs other groups sang. Todd Rundgrend produced her, he is also excellent! The Wheel, Victory. Saw him more than once also. He lived 3 hours from here in Albany, NY when I saw him in NYC.
I see all these music posts and I will read them later as I am going out to see my friend's mom. My friend Hank will be there visiting so I am going to take advatage of that.
Talk to you all later.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 14:02:04 (EDT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Ochs and sensitivity
Message:
I think it was more like 75 or so when Ochs took his life. This year I've been thinking a lot about folks like Ochs and other great influences of my life. I read a couple of biographies of Abbie Hoffman and some other stuff.

Abbie Hoffman, behind most of the popular images, was also a very kind, sensitive man. I think kindness and sensitivity are important qualities, at least as importatnt as qualities like intelligence and perspicacity. I think many who became premies had many of these qualities. I'm grateful to have been associated with these folks.

The DLM dream is over but the influence of the deeper qualities abides.
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Date: Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 14:29:17 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Phil Ochs
Message:
Hi Anth:

There is a FABULOUS Pete Seeger collection that was released about a year ago ( 2 CDs) where all kinds of singers perform Pete's songs. I would really recommend it. It is the greatest.

Regarding Phil Ochs, it is generally believed that the US government is responsible for Phil's death. He was endlessly harrassed by the FBI, the police, et al. for all his anti-war and civil rights wor and he finally committed suicide..

Also Pete Seeger was blacklisted in the McCarthy era because he was believed to be a communist or some other nonsense, mostly for his union organizing, and he was not allowed to perform on television in the US until 1968, when the Smuthers Brothers demanded that he be allowed to perform on their variety show. The network censors cut the first time, but he was finally allowed to perform. That's how late the blacklist lasted for people like Pete. The Smuthers Brothers Show was also eventually censored for its anti-war content and it was taken off the air. This, in the land of 'free speech.'

If you ever get to see the film 'Wasn't That A Time' about The Weavers, be sure to see it. Pete is in great form and the rest of the Weavers sing all their famous songs in a reunion performance in the mid-80s.
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Date: Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 21:00:53 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: JW
Subject: Smothers Bros.
Message:
Dear Joe,
That is so sad that the FBI harassed Phil Ochs like that. I can believe it but what a damn shame.
Also to Helen, thanks for setting the record straight about Laua Neryo, I feel so bad saying it was an overdose.
Re: The Smothers Brothers show, I remember thinking how lucky I was each week I saw that show and at some point it seemed like they were pushing the limits more than usual and I would wonder if it would be on again the next week.
They were exciting, vibrant times and I am glad I at least was at the tail end of that era.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Jun 14, 1999 at 09:17:52 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Smothers Bros.
Message:
Hi Robyn
I love the Smothers Bros. also. Gary and I actually won tickets from a radio show to see them at Wolf Trap (an outdoor amphitheater here) & they were adorable. I love their Schtick where one brother is the focussed responsible one and the other one, Tommy, rambles on and on and says 'mom always liked you best'. They sang this song abotu Noah's Ark and Tommy started doing this little pantimone on top of his guitar, pretending his fingers were the animals going onto the ark, and just rambling on and on about it and Dick just stood there staring at him, waiting for him to get it together,. And of course Tommy looked up at him and said 'what?' and they got into an argument, etc. Of course the audience was dying, it was hysterical.

It's hard to believe their show was so controversial, it seems so innocent now!!
Love
Helen
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Date: Mon, Jun 14, 1999 at 14:44:25 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: JW, Robyn, Bobby, bobby,
Subject: Phil Ochs
Message:
Who'd have thought, all these Phil Ochs fans.

So it's off to the CD shop for a double Pete Seeger and a Laura Nyro.

Anth the helpful to the economy.
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Date: Mon, Jun 14, 1999 at 22:12:07 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: AJW
Subject: Laura Nyro
Message:
Dear Anth,
Had you not heard of Laura Neyro? Let us know how you like her. I hope you can find a CD of her's but then you live in a city! :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 14:55:16 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Anth
Subject: Folk music (ot)
Message:
Hi Anth,

I am a folkie too. In 1967 I used to go and listen to Bert Jansch, John Renbourne Anne Briggs and the I. S. Band. Later I went to live with I.S's in Wales and Scotland (Now people will really start knowing who I am) Fame at last! the friend who 'turned me on' to these guys was Peter Knight who later became part of Steeleye Span. I just got in touch with him via the internet and he says he is going to send me a free copy of his latest album....I'm still waiting. I also went to hear Dylan at the Royal Albert Hall in 67-68.

In fact once when I was very unhappy living in the Inverness Ashram Stone Monkey picked me up took me away to live in Glen Row with the I.S.Band. I was a lot happier there.

Reminiscing - Liz
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Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 20:29:00 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: brauns@dircon.co.uk
To: Liz
Subject: A Personal Question
Message:
Liz,

Do you remember Lorraine Eveskaitis (Lol) from the Inverness Ashram? Reply by email if you want.

John.
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Date: Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 13:54:18 (EDT)
From: bobby
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: my purse (ot)
Message:
Anth I love Phil Ochs version of the Highwayman. One of the great classics of music for me that has stirred my romantic heart for more than 30 years.

I love Phil Ochs. Years ago I read a biography. He went off the deep end for awhile near the end of his life. He wore gold lame Elvis suits and even cut an album or two in that guise. He was a very sensitive, gifted man.
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Date: Fri, Jun 11, 1999 at 23:46:25 (EDT)
From: gregg
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Dalai Lama vs. Guru King Ji
Message:
Yes, Helen, it's like talking with any ...true believer. Has anyone read that book //The True Believer...by Eric Hoffer...about how One World View makes life more tolerable...

That's a whole nother topic.

But, on this topic, when you have an Experience, you tend to ascribe the environment/religion/teacher/guru who happens to be in temporal proximity, with the power to turn the experience off and on.

My friend believed that I could not have had my experience with the D. Lama if I had not been impregnated with the seed of Knowledge from you know who.

But isn't this in contradiction to the GMJ dogma that the Truth is inside of you...always has been?

I dunno.

I think the apparent simplicity of DLM dogma is its own downfall: the Perfect Master dogma is indefensible...logically and spiritually. One Perfect Master? What about Ramana Maharshi? Nityananda? Inferior to GMJ? Jesus!!
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Date: Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 08:29:40 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: gregg
Subject: Dalai Lama vs. Guru King Ji
Message:
YES!! I know EXACTLY what you mean!!! Fundamantalist premies assume that if you have any feeling of connectedness it's because you were impregnated with Maharaji's seed (I love the way you put that). Like we were these dormant sacks of protoplasm before he opened our eyes so that we could become real. Yuk!!! The contrary is true for me--I had to UNlearn what I had learned as a premie (and what I had learned with the guru I had prior to M) in order to feel more connected to other people (which is the sort of Jewish-Unitarian religious beliefs I have--to me God is all about being part of a community and heaven on earth is people being in relationship to each other)

FOr some reason all this impregnation talk reminds me of when I went to an infertility specialist and he was this real arrogant swaggering kinda guy and he said 'don't worry, I'll get you pregnant'. My husband said 'You bloody well better not get her pregnant!!' ho ho

Are you a Buddhist? I think the Dalai Lama is a very sincere sweet guy. I have enjoyed reading his books and the books of that other Buddhist monk who is very popular now. I sort of associate Buddhism with 'detachment' which is a concept that I DON'T like, & it kinda tickles me how many Americans are into Buddhism these days (it seems fashionable somehow) but I do feel that the Buddhist's emphasis on compassion and their acknowledgement of human suffering is a great thing. I probably sound incredibly cynical, don't meant to. Any comments of yours would be appreciated
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Date: Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 10:42:46 (EDT)
From: gregg
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Dalai Lama vs. Guru King Ji
Message:
Helen, yeah I am kind of a Buddhist (and an occasional Unitarian churchgoer)...come back to this thread later so I can comment on yr comments...I'm out the door now...taking my daughter to Tae Kwon Do...
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Date: Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 14:34:41 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Religions
Message:
Hi Helen,

I think there's a verse in Arti that explains the premie attitude to religion, it ends something like,

'Chanting, fasting, charity, austerity will never bring you knowledge of the soul, will never reveal your soul, Without the Grace of Satguru, without the knowledge of Satguru, rites and rituals won't reach the goal'

I think there was something about 'religions sing their own glories' too.

I agree with you, thinking you've got some higher spiritual understanding witheld from the rest of humanity is a big barrier. It also turns you into a spiritual fascist.

Anth the spiritual communist.
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Date: Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 15:04:22 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Religions
Message:
You are so right about those arti lyrics! I remember thinking 'Jeez, talk about your no way out propositions!' I mean even if I fast for 5 hours (which I rarely do, glutton that I am) I get a little buzz, doesn't that count for anything?

I think that it is comforting to have the 'answers'.. Maybe it's human nature to want all the answers. It's a way of feeling in control.
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Date: Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 15:58:24 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Helen
Subject: Religions
Message:
Dear Helen,
Hi sweetie,
' I mean even if I fast for 5 hours (which I rarely do, glutton that I am) I get a little buzz, doesn't that count for anything?'
I guess it means you don't need a Rizla! :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 16:03:11 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Religions
Message:
What's a Rizla, some kind of new-age thing there?
How are you?
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Date: Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 16:16:27 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Helen
Subject: Religions
Message:
Hi Helen!
I am fine but Kenya got into a porcipine at the creek, I am pulling a few quills and giving her a rest. I got them all out around her mouth on the outside now I have to get out about 25 on the inside of her mouth! I can't believe she just let me do it, not fussing. I hope the inside goes as well as I am no medical practitioner!!!!!
It is a perfect day, not a cloud in the sky.
You would have to read the back and forth between myself and Anth in his 'birthday' thread to find out what a Rizla is. :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 17:34:55 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Robyn & Anthony
Subject: Robyn and Anthony
Message:
Hi RObyn
here I was reading your e-mail about acupuncture and then I read about your dog getting needled. Poor thing. It's amazing how trusting they can be when they know you are helping them! I hope she is okay. We are still taking care of my mother in law's old pug, she is so cranky cause we don't give her treats all day the way my mom in law does.My dog is scared to death of her because she barks and at her--it's all about attitude cause she's tiny (the pug)
I will have to read Anthony's b'day thread! I have been trying to discipline myself not to read every thread cause you know how addictive it is!
My book club is not coming over here after all we're going to go out to a cafe and meet there instead so I'm off the hook about doing housework (my least favorite thing, as you know!!)
Anth I am sorry I didn;t wish you a proper happy birthday! Hope it was great. You are a great addition to the forum, you're lots of fun and open-minded and you needed the cult like a hole in the head (but you already knew that :)
Love
Helen
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Date: Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 18:05:33 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Helen
Subject: Robyn and Anthony
Message:
Dear Helen,
First, just save that birthday wish for Oct. 6th! I had the wrong date because of the different way SOME countries write the date! Now I've got JHB born in the 25th month on the 6th day! I am shorting brain waves left and right!
Kenya is fine, she didn't like me holding her mouth open but was surprizingly good. She got into a porcipine at the same spot last year. I had read that once a dog gets into one that it doesn't give up until the thing is dead but since it was a year ago I thought maybe it wouldn't happen.... I will start going to my other favorite spot farther back in and hope she doesn't find one there! I will also start, again, keeping a siccor and a pliers in the car.
I had a St. Bernard before the dogs I have now and he use to be scared of a little terrior mix. It would have been funny but I didn't like that little dog.
Glad you don't have to clean although I still do as I DO want Jade to graduate! The cafe sounds splendid. There use to be one for a short time in the small town closest to my house but it didn't last long, it seemed popular enough, I don't know what happened.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 09:33:34 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: chit chat to Robyn
Message:
Congratulations to Jade! When is the actual graduation date?
At the French cafe we went to for book club, we sat outdoors, I got a nice glass of French wine and a bird flew over and pooped in it!

That is too wild that dogs persist with trying to get a porcupine! I am surprised to hear that because they are so smart you would think they would run run like the wind! Then again, dogs live by different rules than we do.

Last night the pug took over our bedroom and chased Mischa out. Gary said she (the pug) is like that Chuckie doll in the horror movie. She makes the most horrible sounds and lumbers up the stairs like she's coming to get you! We are returning her this week

CONGRATULATIONS AGAIN TO JADE!

Helen
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Date: Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 11:32:53 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Helen
Subject: chit chat to Robyn
Message:
Dear Helen,
Tuesday evening at 7pm is Jade's graduation. It seems sureal to me because she is graduating a year early but it is happening. Thanks for you congrats to her, I'll pass it along.
I don't know about dogs being smart or should I say perceptive. I use to think they were but when I lived WAY out in the country and was walking with Jess and the neighbor's kids down the dirt road there were 3 large dogs with us and at one point they, the dogs, were all running full bore right toward the kids. I wasn't even worried as I thought they'd split and go around them but they just knocked them down and they, the kids, went flying like bowling pins!
As for the porcipines, it is something like premies who post here, and end up getting so mad and frustrated they lash out a Jim and whoever else. They just want to win and not be bothered anymore! ;)
That pug being a character in a horror movie cracks me up! :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 16:14:38 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: chit chat to Robyn
Message:
Dogs seem to do really wild things when they are in a pack situation. My sister's dogs love to hop the fence, chase deer, get sprayed by skunks etc, but individually they behave like little ladies and gentlemen.

Congrats again to your daughter. It is a huge step.....for mom and daughter
Love
Me
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Date: Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 07:25:25 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Robyn and Anthony
Message:
Hi Helen,

Thanks for the wishes, it turned out to be my 'Internet Birthday', not my being born birthday.

(to find your 'Internet Birthday' switch the month and day round, so- 1st day of the 4th month becomes 4th day of 1st month. 29th day of 3rd month, becomes 3rd day of 29th month etc. So, the 6th of June becomes the 6th of June. Geddit?

If not, read the birthday thread.

Anth the Numerologist
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Date: Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 08:21:18 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Robyn and Anthony
Message:
Oh that is so 5783084082949202! I am in number land now!
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Date: Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 17:57:12 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Arti
Message:
Angels sing your story, heavenly host sing your praises, they find no end to your fame. Jai dev, jai Satguru Dev.

Yea Right!
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Date: Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 21:20:38 (EDT)
From: gregg
Email: None
To: helen, robyn
Subject: soy cheese
Message:
Robyn, sorry to hear about your dog. That has always been a nightmare of mine, for some reason, even though we don't have a dog and live in the city. It just sounds so terrible. Quills in the snout.

Helen: Buddhism/detachment: What happens when you see that the world is transient.. (obvious, but usually denied minute to minute) is not that cynicism increases. What happens is...perhaps also because the interdependence of all life is also bodily realized...increased experience and compassion.

What it is is deprogramming: reassesing your assessment of the world by starting from square one allows you to stop playing those internal tapes again and again and start afresh. It's a fresh new world.

Emotions don't dry up, they just disengage from past programming and respond to real life events. A good thing. Speaking as one of the myriad of semi-fucked-up people!
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Date: Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 22:44:50 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: gregg
Subject: soy cheese
Message:
Dear Gregg,
I thought this was very funny:
'That has always been a nightmare of mine, for some reason, even though we don't have a dog and live in the city.'
As well as your subject!

My interest in Buddism has been peaked since reading the forum, those for and against but I have never done any research myself. I know Bill doesn't see any value, or not much and says it is sexist agains woman but those who are living in its practice seem to find it very humanistic and compasionate. I want to ask a question but can't remember if you posted about that here or in email so I won't say anything.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 23:59:01 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: gregg
Subject: tempeh burger
Message:
Thank you for the explanation, very clear. It sounds like a lot of work to me. I think I am 'in my mind' baby, YEAH, baby!
I am just kidding. I do practice detachment somewhat in order to not drive myself nuts with my thoughts. But don't you think that is just maturity also? I mean maybe just developmentally we learn to detach and that we can't control other people, etc.

Detachment has weird connotations for me because I think it's just not good for people to be detached from their human passion and drive. To have a little fire in the belly is good. To be so on fire that every little thing sets you off is not so good. So to be able to cool down and be able to detach can be good for some people. Me, I became detached as a way to dissociate from bad shit growing up, so Maharaji's trip ('you bring the death of attachment, you bring the mind true detachment') was not good. Detachment in the sense of observing the mind is okay to a point but after awhile if youa re just observing yourself it can get kinda weird. I read all those Buddhist books that said the mind was like a monkey in a cage, I don't think so.
Maybe the mind just needs stimulation. Who knows, I'm just shooting the shit. WOuld love to hear more about your Buddhism whenever you feel like it.
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Date: Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 11:38:27 (EDT)
From: gregg
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: kosher ham burger
Message:
I know what you mean, Helen, about belly fire vs. detachment. But I think that dichotomy is a paradox only on paper. What Buddhists call detachment has nothing to do with detachment in the sense wea re used to using the word. A Westerner who is 'detached' is relating to the world intellectually, perhaps, rather than emotionally. (An Enneagram Five, I think, if you've ever read about enneagrams.) Detached meaning uninvolved. Not a good thing.

Buddhism is more about paying attention to the pauses in the constant internal monologue. In the pauses, you can pay attention to what is, instead of what your inner interpreter has to say about what was or what will be or what may have been in some other set of circumstances...

In any case, disengaging the tendency to be driven by reactive emotions and fear and desire doesn't mean you don't get scared or lustful, it just...hell, I don't know how to put it. But I do know that when I meditate, it makes me calmer and happier and it doesn't make me play the piano with any less fire and frenzy!
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Date: Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 12:14:48 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: gregg
Subject: Oprah Chicken
Message:
Dear Gregg,
I am just taking a cleaning break and right not Dave Mathews' Dancing Nancies, 'could I have been anyone other than me' I thought it quite apropo in ligth of: 'In the pauses, you can pay attention to what is, instead of what your inner interpreter has to say about what was or what will be or what may have been in some other set of circumstances...'
I am going to have to do some research on Buddism some time soon, it does have a possible appeal to me, not that I think I will ever adapt one way over another but just add the parts that click with me into my 'Robynism'.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 15:36:54 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: gregg
Subject: chit chat this and that
Message:
I liked that post A LOT and I am going to print it out. You play the piano? Tell all. And did I hear you 'say' you are a teacher
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Date: Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 16:10:34 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: gregg
Subject: kosher ham burger
Message:
I should give you a more serious answer,
My understanding about Buddhism from reading Karen Armstrong's book 'A History of God' is that it was meant to be a philosophy, not a religion. People 'added on' the Bhakti aspect (seeking protection in t he shelter of the Buddha,etc), and the reincarnation beliefs later.

I liked your healthy definiton of detachment as a psychological tool to enhance life and enrich relationships. The disasterous detachment model of the guru-70's was more about 'closing off the senses in order to reach enlightenment'. This, taken to an extreme, led to a sort of psychotic relationship with the world & others (in my opinion.) Thus the term 'bongo premie'. I am still wending my way out of my own personal bongo-ness, as we all are I'm sure.

Helen
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Date: Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 21:39:38 (EDT)
From: gregg
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: kosher ham burger
Message:
Buddhism: philosophy or religion? Either way, a lot of Buddhists around the world probably see it as their religion. They pray to Buddha, etc. It did arise, in a sense, as a reaction to theistic Hinduism. It seems to me to have the same basic 'theological' goals as other religions...to make sense of this life...but it is different in many ways, too. Especially in its lack of an overarching deity.

Actually, I am not a doctrinaire Buddhist, and not a scholar of Buddhism, either. I have a teacher whose teacher is Buddhist. (Tibetan) His other root guru was Tantric Hindu...Rudi, Swami Rudrananda. And he studied a lot of Chinese healing arts, Zen, Western psychology...so the teachings I work with are eclectic, which suits my personality just fine.

It may sound strange to have a guru but be a very ex premie...But it's a very different thing. The teachings fit my personality (one's personality is not meant to be supressed or subsumed in someone else's vision!). I think I didn't like myself very much before. My father was very critical; I took over his critical role after I left home, I guess. (Having a loving father figure in GMJ was nice in a sick kind of way.) Now I don't have any problems with my problems and imperfections; I am an expression of What Is; I don't have much to do with it; I just live it and try to do what I can for everybody.

I'm spending the summer with my daughter, as I have for the last seven years. I play jazz piano, have a play coming out this fall, in Denver, and teach at a public school....Denver School of the Arts. I teach English. How about you, Helen?

Love, gregg
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Date: Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 23:04:43 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: gregg
Subject: chit chat (ot)
Message:
I used to teach high school English (for only one yr) and I also am into music, have done some performing (voice). My husband and I are folk musicians but we have not been doing much with it lately.

Teaching high school kids is a wonderful thing--more power to you! And writing a play is no small feat either! Looks like we have a lot in common, I am a writer also, right now I am writing a website for The WOrld Bank on U.S. child care. I am a child care specialist trying to start my own writign and editing business in the field of parent education/early childhood education.
working with teenagers was not my forte, although I love writign and literature and thought I would be a good English teacher. Isn't it funny how you think you'll be great at something and then realize that the day to day functions of the job are NOT what you imagined? The best high school teachers are the ones who have a LOT of confidence & good classroom management skills, IMO!

I think it is great that you are still on a spiritual path. There IS spirituality after Guru M!! I was raised Unitarian so I guess that is my religion. I believe in God, God might be something that man (woman too) have made up, but believing in God sure has helped me and given my life more meaning. Since I've been posting here I've been forced to think a lot about the God issue and have come to terms with not knowing the answers. And that's okay.
I am very interested in Judaism and like the Jewish teachings a lot. I beleive in an electic approach to religion as well (that was part of my upbringing as a Unitarian so I am comfortable with it)

We can e-mail if you'd like --HelenRDC@aol.com
Take care,
Helen
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Date: Mon, Jun 14, 1999 at 11:55:40 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Judaism v Christianity
Message:
Judaism: ''do not do unto others what you would not like done to you.

Christianity: Do unto others what you want done unto you.

Same thing?

Judaism allows for ''thoughts'' as long as one does not act them out. You may have lust in your heart, but as long as you don't act on it, no sin.

Christianity (Jesus-Sermon on the Mount) states that even if you think about lusting after your neighbor's wife, you've sinned, even though you've kept it in your pants. What a fucked deal, IMHO.

But then Jusaism easily grants license to entertain all manner of evil feelings and hopes towards others. And maybe that's not so good and indeed, hurts other people. That is, if you accept the idea that we indeed perceive much more than we consciously think we do.

Both systems have serious problems. We are overdue for some fresh thinking on these matters.
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Date: Mon, Jun 14, 1999 at 14:41:13 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Judaism v Christianity
Message:
Hi Gerry,
Yes I have had a few conversations with Catholic friends who had to bear the burden of thinking that lustful thoughts and masturbation were both sinful whent hey were growing up. To me, that is indefensible to teach people that. Yet Catholicism certainly turns out some great people who I think just ignore some of the sin doctrine and try to be good people.

I don't think Judaism gives people license to harbor bad thoughts about people, there are Jewish laws about stuff like that, for example the 10 commandments forbid being covetous and lusting after people's spouses,e tc. But you are right, Judaism is pretty behavior and action oriented, which makes it practical (to me). It can also make it kind of superficial, I know Jews who practive Jewish customs, but have no idea as to their significance and meaning. I also know Unitarians who know nothing about the roots/ history of Unitarianism which is annoying also.

I'm not Jewish and probably would not convert although ya never know. Reading about how Judiasm evolved (when I read The History of God) I can see where Judaism has a lot of blind spots and flaws just as Christianity does. But even though all religions have flaws, they can help people tremendously and do good things out there for people. FOr example, the Baptist church that donates its space to our girl scout troops, for no fee, with no string attached, is doing something wonderful for the community. That's just a small example of how churches are in the community.
Hope you had a happy birthday!.
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Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 22:16:02 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Judaism v Christianity
Message:
Helen, masterbation IS a sin, didn't you know that?
Masturbation's ok, though.
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Date: Mon, Jun 14, 1999 at 19:15:26 (EDT)
From: Curly
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Ahem!
Message:
Actually, 'Do unto others what you want done to you' is somewhere in Deuteronomy (I don't have a bible at home but I could check out within a couple of days exactly where it is)or was it, 'Love your neighbor as you love yourself'? Anyway, one of those two (perhaps both) can be found in the old testament.

Yours truly,
Rabbi 'Curly' Horowitz
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Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 22:22:21 (EDT)
From: Gerry Lyngowitz
Email: None
To: Curly
Subject: Ahem!
Message:
Hi Curly,

I'm no Rabbi Hillel and my main points are:

We indeed perceive much more than we consciously think we do.

Both systems have serious problems. We are overdue for some fresh thinking on these matters.


And a thousand pardons for my sacriligeous (sp) reference to the stooges a bit back... they are and have been my perfect masters of all time. Nyuck nyuck nyuck...
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Date: Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 23:13:18 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: gregg
Subject: kosher ham burger
Message:
Dear Gregg,
I wanted to ask about your guru and if he was Buddist but couldn't remember if you talked about that here or in email. I think it is very interesting. And I like that he is a conglomerate of different teachings and religions. I am the same although not as wise as he, I am sure.
I love piano and jazz also! That is one reason I loved Laura Neryo, the piano.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 15:50:03 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: Arti
Message:
Can you beleive we sang that shit?
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Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 14:59:23 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Arti
Message:
I've sung it quite recently and it made me feel all pious and holy. The problem is I just feel like a complete Bongo when I mention this to my neighbours!

Love,

Liz (Still crazy after all these years.)
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Date: Fri, Jun 11, 1999 at 20:35:30 (EDT)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Banishment for Nil!
Message:
I have unilaterally decided to ban Nil from this forum. He is too disruptive of the goals of this group, which is to provide a safe and nurturing environment for recovering misfits, and he swears too much. Besides, his doctor told him to stop wasting his time trying to talk intelligently to people whose level of critical thinking continually slides to the lowest common denominator. Please join me in wishing him well on his new endeavours.
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Date: Fri, Jun 11, 1999 at 21:19:17 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Even in defeat
Message:
Besides, his doctor told him to stop wasting his time trying to talk intelligently to people whose level of critical thinking continually slides to the lowest common denominator.

How ungracious a loser! So Nil gets cornered a bit and this is all he can come up with? That he realizes he's been wasting his time trying to talk intelligently with us?

The fact is, Nil, that you'll keep lurking here and you know it. You just can't talk anymore because, like I said, you can't take the next step. You can't utter the obvious truth which you've essentially admitted already, that Maharaji's either deluded or lying if he claimed to be God and isn't.

Chicken!
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Date: Fri, Jun 11, 1999 at 21:38:33 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Barney
Subject: Does this mean...
Message:
...that shp can come back, to keep up our quota of the enemy on the site?

Anth the beligerant.
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Date: Fri, Jun 11, 1999 at 22:31:13 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: No
Message:
...that shp can come back, to keep up our quota of the enemy on the site?

Why do you ask?
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Date: Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 06:25:22 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: because...
Message:
...somewhere in this dark decaying land the flag of freedom still flies.

Anth the Liberator
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Date: Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 15:01:38 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Silly idea of freedom
Message:
Anth,

Tell me more about this 'freedom' thing. Say Shp just posted 'how do you know?' in reply to ever last post here. Would -- should -- he still enjoy the 'freedom' to do so?
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Date: Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 08:24:50 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What's silly about freedom?
Message:
I don't know Jim. What are the guidelines on this? Are there any guidelines? I would hope that shp would get treated the same way as anyone else who posted something like that.

I'm still not exactly sure why he was banned, as I wasn't around when it all went on. Barney wrote a message saying that he'd been using lots of different ids. (Maybe he's got multiple personalities?) and generally pissing people off.

Was it a question of, 'he pissed a lot of people off so we found a reason to ban him?'

It all seemed a bit unclear. Is the ban permanent? Is there any form of appealing against it? What conditions would shp be allowed back onto the Forum?

And now your question about this 'Freedom thing'.

It's about being able to say and do what you like, as long as it doesn't interfere with any one else's freedom. But you're a lawyer Jim, you've probably written essays on all this stuff. For me it's more to do with what I'm feeling in a particular situation.

Usually, when someone is trying to stop someone else from speaking, or publishing something, it makes me want to hear, or read, whatever it is that the censor is trying to keep me from reading. I want to make my own mind up about things. Never mind that 10,000 people have already made their minds up, so there's no need for me struggle to the same conclusion. I don't care. I want to make my own mind up.

The reason I feel like this is because I don't trust what I'm told all the time. Having worked as a journalist for a while, I know how selected facts can be presented to create a certain opinion. And lots of parties have a vested interest in you beleiving certain things, that in reality are bullshit.

What I love about the Internet, and this site, is the lack of censorship. We get to say our side too. Nobody's censoring what I write here (except to change £ to $).

Right up to last summer, I was working on Premie publications, with the editorial team that gave you 'Connect' and 'Enjoyingboredom'. I'd written articles for premie publications for years, but for the last few years, my stuff would get cut at the final editorial session. I think it was Maharaji, but no-one would admit it up front. I wrote a 'Journey' for the zombie 'Divine Times' that came out about three years ago that wasn't all that much different from a section of my 'Journey' here. Everyone loved it, but, again, it fell at the final editorial session.

I remember talking to my old pal Ole Grunbaum about it- he implied it was because my articles were 'more about ME than HIM'.

So, one of the minor drips that dribbled me out was the censorship. I know what it feels like to be censored. It's not outrage, anger, indignity or anything like that. It's just a kind of numbness- a quiet disappointment with humanity.

So Jim, my rule of thumb is, 'bollocks to censorship'.

Can you dig where I'm coming from?

Anth
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Date: Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 16:53:13 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: All within reason
Message:
Usually, when someone is trying to stop someone else from speaking, or publishing something, it makes me want to hear, or read, whatever it is that the censor is trying to keep me from reading. I want to make my own mind up about things. Never mind that 10,000 people have already made their minds up, so there's no need for me struggle to the same conclusion. I don't care. I want to make my own mind up.

In this case, Shp said what he had to say many times over. He was impervious to reason and what he had to say was such nonsense it raised the agro factor. After a while, the guy was just a pest. There was no content that hadn't been reviewed, considered and picked through for any possible nuggets of value. The main thing, though, was that he was impervious to reason. That, to me, is always a good reason to boot someone out of a discussion. No apologies either.

You know, no one's telling Shp that he can't express himself. But he's not going to tell me that I have to listen to his brainless numbage. And anyone who posts here draws all of our attention. This idea of just ignoring people doesn't work that well, not really. So Shp was constantly in people's face with his stupidity. That's an imposition on our freedom to have a reasonable discussion about Maharaji.

Here's how I think it should work -- premies or anyone should be welcome to come here and discuss Maharaji honestly. If they're not honest (and by that, I mean, they deny the obvious, non-negotiable aspects of this cult) they're living on borrowed time. In my mind, they've already squandered any 'rights' they might enjoy as forum participants and should be allowed to stick around solely for the selfish interests of those of us who're trying to be rational and honest. If they provide sufficient entertainment value, then sure, keep them around. If they make good punching bags, keep them around. Otherwise, if and when we(you, Barney, whoever) feels like it, like if they're pising peopel off more than entertaining them with their bullshit, get rid of them. They have no rights if they're not being rational. I've got absolutely no qualms about this. Blatant dishonesty or refusal to reason is an imposition on others that doesn't have to be tolerated.
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Date: Mon, Jun 14, 1999 at 03:50:55 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Reason?
Message:
Hi Jim,

So, who decides if someone is impervious to reason?

Most people, when debating, beleive their opponent is impervious to reason if they don't agree with them after the debate.

And how do you decide if someone is impervious to reason?

And if shp is impervious to reason from you, does that mean he's going to be impervious to reason from me too?

Should we have two extra categories for banishment, posting under multiple ids and being impervious to reason?

Anth
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Date: Mon, Jun 14, 1999 at 11:40:09 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: It's not that hard
Message:
So, who decides if someone is impervious to reason?

Most people, when debating, beleive their opponent is impervious to reason if they don't agree with them after the debate.


Well that hasn't been my experience. Most people argue their positions and at least try to do so rationally. Shp wasn't even trying. (Same with most premies here and that's why I say that they too should feel that they're allowed to continue solely by the generosity of the Barney. This is a discussion board and that term means something. It's impossible to simply ignore violators here. Catweasal, for instance. Don't you think he's a substantially distracting blight on the page? So why sohuld he be allowed to persist? I don't think he should and Shp wasn't any better.)

And how do you decide if someone is impervious to reason?

And if shp is impervious to reason from you, does that mean he's going to be impervious to reason from me too?

Should we have two extra categories for banishment, posting under multiple ids and being impervious to reason?


You decide with caution. You try, try, try and then try again to reason. You pick what shoudl be non-contentious common ground and try to work your way into the more difficult terrain. If that fails you talk with the guy about thatprocess. You look for some glint in the eye that shows some recognition of rationality. You shine a bright light into their pupils and look for dilation. You see if he or she's any different with outers. You rest, then try again. You let him establish a few ground rules; maybe if he's feeling a little control he can breathe a little easier and start to focus. You just try a lot.

After a while, though, you're entitled to make the call.

And no, Anth, it wasn't just me, it was everyone.
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Date: Mon, Jun 14, 1999 at 13:57:58 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Forum Participants
Message:
Hi Jim,

At the introduction to the Forum, it says it's for ex-premies, non-premies and premies. It says people may be banned for making threats or writing under someone elses name.

It doesn't say anything about being impervious to reason, or using multiple ids.

As far as guidelines go, these seem quite fair and reasonable to me.

As for adding clauses like, 'pissing people off', 'using more than one name' 'not responding to reason', I think you're walking on dodgy ground.

What pisses one person off may make someone else piss themself laughing. What's reasonable to you or me, may be quite unreasonable to someone else. As for multiple ids- well at least you can make a rule that everyone understands about something like that.

Comrade Anth
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Date: Mon, Jun 14, 1999 at 20:28:56 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Forum Participants
Message:
Anth,

I've been reading your laudible defence of freedom of speech. However, SHP really did take over this forum on a number of occasions, and used multiple ids to spread venom and confusion. I conversed with him, and found him totally evasive, and his final emails to Barney after he was banned show to me what sort of person he really was.

His one claim to decency was the issue about Jagdeo's alleged child abuse. He said this disturbed him a lot, and that he wrote to Maharaji about it. He was pressed on many occasions about whether Maharaji replied. It is pretty certain that he never did, but SHP would never admit that.

I think that this issue broke him, but he continued to cling to Maharaji knowing him to be immoral. I think he is now suffering severe cognitive dissonance. It's probably better he work this out without posting here.

Barney did leave the door open by the way. SHP was invited to email Barney when he felt he could behave reasonably on the forum. Instead he sent those hate mails.

John the defender of the webmaster.
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Date: Mon, Jun 14, 1999 at 22:08:05 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Forum Participants
Message:
Anth,

Obviously we're balancing several interests (I say 'we' but of course it's Barney's say. He does the work, he's the dude, all that stuff. Still, I think Barney's interested in and open to the musings and shoutings of the hoi polloi.) Yes, one such interest is certainly 'free experession'. Even if only as a dramatic contrast to the cult's tight control on information, its misinformation and secrecy. That's reason enough to just have a website with Maharaji's name on it where we can jump up and down, yell 'fuck you, guru!' and whatever. The muzzle's off and it feels great. Blah blahlbdodok]pqwetokq]werptoj134]ty-!!!!

Freedom of expression's also essential if people are going to feel comfortable in the environment, relaxed enough to think out loud, test a few questionable ideas, check some things out. Where could that be any more important than here where many of us are melting out of the cult even as we post? Yes, people will say some dumb shit but they should be able to if only to read back their confusion such as it is. A real learning process.

So those are strokes in favour of free expression.

But there are other factors to be balanced as well. One of them is comfort level. I don't know about you but I really do react viscerally to some of the stuff I read here. Nothing I can't manage but yes, it irks me. I'd be lying to deny it. I don't think it's unnatural but I really look forward to premies' post at times. I see the truth so evidently laid out before them and I just marvel at their ability to avoid it. Take Sandra, for instance. Can you believe her? Someone above made a good point -- if Maharaji post something to the effect that he isn't short on his website she'd be here the enxt day explaining how of course he isn't short and only stupid ex's, who never really 'got it', ever thought otherwise.

But Anth, there comes a time, in my experience, when enough is enough. The premie proves over time that they're just incapable of a sincere discussion; meanwhile anyone talking to them is pulling their hair out.

Is it possible to just ignore them? Not really. This is a small, little group where we're all talking about a subject of common interest. It's against human nature to simply ignore these rascals. This is not a large, public commons where people can talk and walk with whomever they choose and ignore the rest. We're all in each others' faces here; it's a small group and always will be. People have to be respectful of each other here and that means maintaining sincere discussion. Tell me, do you think Sandra's sincere? Catweasel? If so, how? Personally, I'm more than comfortable in the circumstances with someone, anyone (in this case, Barney, the current webmaster) exercising his discretion in kicking out people that are just here to lie or fuck things up.
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Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 04:29:52 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jim & JHB
Subject: Forum Participants
Message:
Dear Jim and John,

thanks for taking the time to answer my posts.

Has there ever been a premie like shp or Catweasel who has come over here to give satsang and ended up jumping ship and joining us?

As regards Sandra, I haven't been following any of the threads so I can't comment. With Catweazel, I'm having a go at civilised communication with him (below) and am eagerly awaiting his response to my question.

Who knows, this time next year, I might be yelling 'Get the bastards off.'

This time last year I was still keen to go through another darshan line.

Life's full of surprises.

Again, thanks for your time.

Anth the Enjoyingfreedom.disorg
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Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 06:48:46 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: Sincerity?
To: Jim
Subject: Jims vision of Sincerity
Message:
Your definition of sincerity? Is that subjective or objective?Based on your own crude values Jim?Or on an ethical position of moderation?You surely cant expect anyone to accept you as tolerant of differing views to your own?
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Date: Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 11:38:46 (EDT)
From: JF
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Silly idea of freedom
Message:
Jim,

I agree with the sentiments expressed on this subject by AJW.
I'd also like to add the following.

If its true as AJW has suggested that SHP was banned because he was using a number of different pseudonyms or ids to post under...then what about our own webmaster who himself has posted under at least two pseudonyms that we know of?

And in response to your question(and correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this question one that could be called 'rhetorical'?):

Say Shp just posted 'how do you know?' in reply to ever last post here. Would -- should -- he still enjoy the 'freedom' to do so?

The question 'how do you know?' is one of the classic questions asked by the great philosophers throughout the ages.

No doubt its a question that you yourself as a lawyer, have asked many a witness on the stand.

What therefore, is so reprehensible about SHP posing this very same question?

And why should that cause him to be banned?
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Date: Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 18:39:30 (EDT)
From: Mary
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Silly idea of freedom
Message:
Hi Jim,

I don't think we should ban anyone (SHP) who grows good tomatos! That's as good as any other reason to let him come back. IMHO.

Mary (who can be irrational every now and then herself)
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Date: Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 21:47:24 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mary
Subject: For what?
Message:
Mary,

What would you like to talk with Shp about?
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Date: Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 22:05:58 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: For what?
Message:
Jim,

Well, I'm hoping to keep the lines of communication open about Jagdeo. I'm also hoping some word or phrase here on X/3 penetrates his duramater and he'll have instant recall of the complete name of the pedophile who may still be active in the Church/Foundation of EV.

(It's quite impossible to track the FDLE database of predators and offendors without a last name.)

Finally, the way I see it, all premies are gonna be ex-es one day as this charade morphs into a Private Investment Company or a Global Wireless Telecommunications Service. I think little ji might just cede the K reigns over to big Ji.

Could be irrational thinking on my part but I never claimed to be completely rational... unless I'm working on a payroll program;-)

L,
Mary
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Date: Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 04:01:06 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Nil
Subject: Good luck, Nil...
Message:
Just remember that Knowledge is a product of your nervous system and Mr Rawat is a freeloader hitching a ride on your gullibility.

BTW, It's an old question, but it looks like this is my last chance to ask you:

What 'lies' have you read on forum III?
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Date: Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 15:37:18 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: nigel
Subject: and if you ever come back...
Message:
Make sure you apologise to Gail for your crass and insensitive 'joke' re. her psychotherapy.

The Lard's eternal self-love shines through your every word, brother.
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Date: Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 16:33:56 (EDT)
From: JF
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: and if you ever come back...
Message:
Make sure you apologise to Gail for your crass and insensitive 'joke' re. her psychotherapy.

Good point Nigel.

Of course there was also the time when Jim was explaining to Nil
the effect that MJ's commandment, 'never leave room for doubt in your mind', had on his friend Dave who eventually committed suicide while in the ashram.

Nil's response.

So your friend died. That's too bad. Now why don't you put it away asshole.

I beleive this statement, more then any other he made on the forum will remain for me as the enduring, defining statement of what this sick, bullshit revisionist and his gold toilet shitmeister, are really all about.

They both can go fuck themselves. Or each other.
Whatever.
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Date: Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 18:42:37 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: JF
Subject: Let's start a collection!
Message:
- of these sociopathic, premie slips-of-the-tongue which so blatantly demolish all pretences that this cult has anything to do with love, peace or universal harmony and understanding etc.

Barney could arrange them in a Top Ten. (Nil shoots straight in at number one and two, with the above classics, closely followed by PT at three, Brucie - last week's number one - joint third with Catweasel down a place but hanging in there, but will Mel Bourne make a challenge for the top slot..? Stay chooned...)
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Date: Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 08:21:24 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Banishment for Nil!
Message:
Nil,

Your attitude is proof positive that you haven't found shit. In case you've forgotten, YOU'RE the one who's supposed to have realized what a precious gift you've received, not us. If this was truly so, I would think you'd pity us, not hold us in contempt. We're already down and out as far as you're concerned. Why kick us when we're down? You're just one more premie who's proof that he's found nothing. Thanks for that. It only confirms what I already know to be true, that Maharaji is a crock of shit. And so are you.
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Date: Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 08:44:41 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Banishment for Nil!
Message:
Hi Nil,

I'm not sure if you're joking or not.

At any rate, do take care.

Mary M
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Date: Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 16:12:23 (EDT)
From: barney the Fascist
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: YOU CAN'T QUIT - YOU'RE FIRED
Message:
Nil,

Nobody quits this Forum. You can only be fired (blocked.)

You'll never work in this town again, you hear me?

Damnit Jim, I'm a webmaster not a psychotherapist!
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Date: Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 08:27:47 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: barney the Fascist
Subject: YOU CAN'T QUIT - YOU'RE FIRED
Message:
How do you know?

(just trying something out here Barney)

anth the curious
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Date: Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 16:03:09 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: how do I know what?
Message:
AJW,

say what?
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Date: Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 17:25:20 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: Oh, you know
Message:
Barney,

Anth's playing off something I said which was 'how'd you like it if Shp just asked 'how do you know?' after every post.

My point, Anth (and JF), was that if he just kept asking that question and never allowed the conversation to develop, never listened to the answer and responded reasonably to that, he'd be a pest, undermining the discussion and asking to be kicked out.

Being free to express one's self is something of a natural right, but membership in a discussion group is always at the whim of the other participants. If Shp's 'message' is so great and he can't express it here he can always start his own discussion group. I don't think that this one should be the all-inclusive affair Anth seems to want -- or says he wants.
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