Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum III Archive # 52 | |
From: Jun 10, 1999 |
To: Jun 19, 1999 |
Page: 2 Of: 5 |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 17:21:37 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drekyll Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Aryan Invasion of India Message: Article by Robert Cooke in Newsday Genetic studies confirm an Aryan invasion of India Research done at: University of Utah (Lynn Jorde, Michael Bamshad, W.S. Watkins, M.E. Dixon) and Andhra Pradesh Univsersity of India (B.B. Rao, B.V.R. Prasad, J.M. Naidu). Excerpts from article: Analyses of the male Y chromosome, plus genes hidden in small cellular bodies called mitochondria show that today's genetic patterns agree with accounts of ancient Indo-European warrior's conquering the Indian subcontinent. The invaders apparently shoved the local men aside, took their women and set up the rigid caste system that exists today. Their descendants are still the elite within Hindu society. 'Thus today's genetic patterns, the researchers explained vividly reflect a historic event, or events that occurred 3,000 or 4,000 years ago. The gene patterns 'are consistent with a historical scenario in which invading Caucasoids - primarily males - established the caste system and occupied the highest positions, placing the indigenous population, who were more similar to Asians, in lower caste positions.' By studying both sets of genetic markers, the research team found clear evidence echoing what is still seen socially, that women can be upwardly mobile, in terms of caste, if they marry higher-caste men. In contrast, men generally do not move higher, since women rarely marry men from lower castes, the researchers said. 'It's one of the few cases where we know the mating situation in a population for 150 generations. So it's kind of a test for how well the genes reflect a population's history.' The ancient story holds that invaders known as Indo-Europeans, or true Aryans, came from Eastern Europe or western Asia and conquered the Indian subcontinent. The people they subdued descended from the original inhabitants, who had arrived far earlier from Africa and from other parts of Asia. Further, 'when we look at the different components within the upper caste, the group with the greatest European similarity of all is the warrior class, the Kshatriya, who are still at the top of the Hindu castes with the Brahmins,' Jorde said. 'But the Brahmins, in terms of their Y chromosomes, are a little bit more Asian.' End excerpts So there you have it. Implications: Not having been to India I'm not an expert at the physical differences amongst the population, but (assuming that Shri Hans and family were Brahmins) I would say that Shri Hans and maybe even Maharaji look a bit European. Eastern Europe? Where is that? Serbia? Women being upwardly mobile and men not: Damnit! That means I'm probably stuck forever as an assistant night manager at the 7-11 that I work at in a very luxurious neighbor and the elite women are all very nice to me, but always refuse my advances. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 23:00:42 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Roger E. Drekyll Subject: Aryan Invasion of India Message: That's very interesting and I've saved it to disk because such history is an amateur interest of mine. The higher caste Indians are generally European looking in appearance. Actually, in broad racial groupings, the Indian are classed as Caucasians, the same as most Europeans. The Caucasian tribes migrated from the Caucasian Mountains in Eastern Europe somewhere. They're on the map. In every country there are generally at least two racial types which are native. I think the group that have the upper hand are usually more Caucasian looking. Take Vietnam for instance. There are the people who live in the mountains with dark skin and prominent Mongol features and then there's the City dwellers who are lighter skinned and with Caucasian features. It's not hard to see why this happens in so many countries. All of these countries have been invaded by Caucasian (usually European) men at some time in the past and these men have interbred with the native women and created a sub race of semi Caucasians. In Vietnam it was the French who invaded but going way back into history we see that the Romans created sub Caucasian races all over Northern Africa and the Middle East. Incidentally, in pre Roman times there appears to have been a race of people who lived in all the polar regions in the northern hemisphere. They interconnected Northern Europe, Russia and Canada and there's a common culture which has been discovered which predates the Viking culture. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 23:25:17 (EDT)
From: Roger Drek Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: don't forget the mongol hordes Message: Yes, but there was Gengis Khan and the mongol hordes that, I believe, invaded Europe. What's amazing is that these invasions took years and years, more like decades. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 05:09:21 (EDT)
From: AJW Email: None To: Roger E. Drekyll Subject: Aryan Invasion of India Message: Hi Roger, The current accepted story is that our species, homo sapien sapien, left Africa about 30,000 years ago. Apparently all the races on Earth, except for the Africans, are descended from a group of about 130-140 people who left Africa at that time. This is why there is far more genetic diversity in Africa than the rest of the world. The Indo Europeans migrated up into Asia (what we now call China and Russia)then swept back in a loop down to India, then came across to Europe, displacing the indigineuous Europeans. The only originals left in Europe are the Basques and Estonians. Anth the Paleolithicist. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 08:17:20 (EDT)
From: ET Email: phone omm To: AJW Subject: Aryan Invasion of Earth Message: Galactic History of the Planet Earth shows the main settlement came from the LYRA galaxy and later the PLEIADES, 30 million years ago. Atlantis and MU were settled by these Nordic-looking white races. Wars erupted and resulted in the mutual distruction of both continents. Both civilizations attained an extremely high technology and was ruled my Warrior-Scientists called ISHWSH -which means 'King of Wisdom' - for these humans were able to mainpulate matter based on the laws of Creation and developed fantastic devices. This information is from a first hand contactee, Billy Meier and can be accessed at www.billymeier.com ET Who thinks this is credible! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 09:47:49 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave Email: None To: ET Subject: Aryan Invasion of Earth Message: Our dear old James Watt was able to manipulate matter based on the laws of creation and develope fantastic devices. I still think the steam train is one of the most fantastic devices I've seen to this day. Atlantis is reckoned now to have been Antartica. Every now and then there's a major shift of the Earth's plates and everything moves thousands of miles away from where it was in just a few days. That's why there's frozen mammoths in Siberia. It is reckoned that the city of Atlantis lies under miles of ice in Antartica. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 10:05:15 (EDT)
From: RT Email: ommm To: Sir Dave Subject: Aryan Invasion of Earth Message: Sea, I cold you so! RT aachoo Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 10:36:37 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave Email: None To: RT Subject: Last Tango in Paris Message: And it will happen again but nobody knows when. The USA used to be tropical with tropical animals. The fossils are there and the same goes for Europe. You could get out of bed one morning and find you're at the North Pole or the Equator, depending on which way the plates go. You see the Earth's crust is floating on the molten core and isn't as stable as it feels. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 12:00:58 (EDT)
From: RT Email: it's all shifting To: Sir Dave Subject: Last Mango in Paris Message: Yes, the continental plates do match up. I'm not sure it an overnite or year long possibility.Yet, If this Pole shifting, that explains the wooly mammoth. Geo logical, my dear Sir. RT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 14:13:04 (EDT)
From: King Missile Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: got out of bed and it was gone Message: man, that sounds just like my detachable penis where I get out of bed and it's gone. Most of the times I manage to find it at the Lap Dancing Club I was visiting the night before. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jun 17, 1999 at 13:08:46 (EDT)
From: AJW Email: None To: Queen Missile Subject: got out of bed and it was gone Message: Hi Your majesty, do you wear a different outfit when you've got your appendage attached? Anth the Curious Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jun 17, 1999 at 15:15:09 (EDT)
From: King Missile Email: None To: AJW Subject: yes, usually a mala (nt) Message: asdf Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 12:16:00 (EDT)
From: AJW Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Atlantis is near Mablethorpe Message: Evening milud, When the last Ice Age was winding down about 10,000 years ago, the sea level was much lower. In 8500 BC what is now the North Sea was all land, and you could walk in a straight line from Mablethorpe to Copenhagen. Apparently lots of prehistoric remains have been dredged up from the seabed, which is still shallow all the way over, known as the Dogger Bank. So it would appear lots of people lived there. Over the next 2 or 3 thousand years the sea level continued to rise as the ice caps melted, and the area was flooded. This may explain the legends in our culture of 'lost civilisations' and 'great floods'. Anth the owner of a copy of The Penguin Atlas of Ancient History. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 14:31:44 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave Email: None To: AJW Subject: Depends if you've got cable TV Message: and the 'Discovery Channel' which is where I get all my information from. They do reckon the Earth shifted round so quick that the mammoths didn't have time to migrate to somewhere warmer and were quick frozen where they stood. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 12:09:46 (EDT)
From: AJW Email: None To: ET Subject: Aryan Invasion of Earth Message: Hi ET, And where did Billy find all this out? Was it a Flash Gordon comic, or is he in direct contact with aliens. Anth the Earthling Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 15:30:01 (EDT)
From: ET Email: phone omm To: AJW Subject: Aryan Invasion of Earth Message: direct! www.billymeier.com seek. ET Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jun 17, 1999 at 15:41:22 (EDT)
From: Runamok Email: None To: Roger E. Drekyll Subject: Aryan Invasion of India Message: According to Desmond Morris, who wrote _The Naked Ape_, that wobbly-headed nodding that we knew and loved as practiced by the average mahatma is Indian body language. By Western standards, it appears to mean 'maybe', but is a way of saying 'yes'. This same body language is used in Bulgaria, and they look kind of caucasoid to me. Those wobbly-headed mahatmas would make a pretty good figurine for our cars. You know those things with the head on a spring in the rear window? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jun 17, 1999 at 16:50:35 (EDT)
From: RT Email: toys aren't us but why not To: Runamok Subject: Aryan - Heads up Message: Cool idea, get a regular plastic doll head at a tag sale; glue cork into base, drill & insert spring. Paint red dot on forehead, press eye balls in slightly and squeeze ears for realism. Sell in front of next video event. Name of Figurine: Maheadma Fakiranand, for Good Carma. Oh yes. heh RT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 11:58:52 (EDT)
From: Anon Email: None To: Sandra Subject: Belated reply to Sandra Message: Sandra, I just had a moment to reply to what was, admittedly, a rather old conversation we were having. Essentially, I don't think there is much to gain from intransigently reiterating our different views, however in the spirit of free debate I will attempt to engage you a little further on what you said. I apologise for leaving it so long. You wrote: ..back to the lineage stuff. I never met Shri Maharaji, I don't know. I never considered who appointed who very important and I still don't. It would be just the same for me in a business arrangement. If the boss's son took over, and I neither liked or respected him, I wouldn't care who his father was, I wouldn't want to work for him. That's as clear as I can make it. I agree that it's good to judge individuals on their own merit. I still hold to my opinion though, that the historical facts point to the probability that the whole 'Master' lineage tradition is fraught with dangerous delusion. I cannot help but see a catalogue of contradictions, obvious political machinations and power plays dreamt up by both seemingly benificent gurus and their wishful-thinking followers; and I cannot persuade myself to believe that Maharaji, who has sprung directly from these very traditions, is miraculously untainted or indeed not in some way derived from that religion. I am open to Maharaji being as capable as any, and indeed as being a more palatable guru (to today's society in general) than his Indian predecessors. However I don't think his success means that his approach is entirely faultless, beyond criticism or due solely to his merits as a teacher. You wrote: All gurus aren't created equal, just as all restaurants, therapists or singers aren't created equal. They're all different and have wildly different merits or lack of merits. This is up to each person to determine. Being a 'guru' means absolutely nothing. Being in a'correct lineage,' in my view, also means absolutely nothing. That never turned me on, in other words. I sense that you perceive Maharaji to be, of all the crop, particularly meritous. I don't wish to dispute your comparison although I would add that I am not exactly bowled over by the merits of gurus generally. You wrote: Like it or not, the techniques have always been secret, regardless of 'lines of succession' and tradition. You can check that out in the Bhagavad Gita, The ancient Egyptians, The Guru Granth Sahib and The Aquarian Gospel to name 4 to start. The reason has always been the same. People should understand the preciousness of the inner realm and give it a real chance, not just treat it like an episode of Seinfeld. Wasn't the Aquarian Gospel 'channeled' to someone - it's hardly based on fact. I am not so impressed by the behaviour of any of those you list that I wish to take their example. There is always some undesirable consequences where secret doctrines are concerned. Some people invariably will feel intimidated by being beholden to secrecy. It was telling that in his past, Maharaji was quite happy to repeat those Hinduistic and daunting warnings concerning the fate awaiting those who dared to reveal the techniques. I think that, to some considerable extent, secrecy is a prime ingredient in making the 'Knowledge' seem so special to aspirants. The secrecy increases the spellbinding effect. One feels all the more that one has undergone some sort of 'divine' transformation, or been recipient of some particularly rare and personal blessing, if it is stressed or conditional that you should keep the matter absolutely private. Now if the whole thing was completely open, and could stand up without all the secrecy then that would be another thing. I would approve of that. You add: I know a few people who 'gave knowledge' to their boyfriends or spouses. Not one of the recipients ever had the vaguest idea of what they'd just been given or the richness that was available to them. It had been grossly cheapened. It stands to reason that people who are casually told of the techniques will derive less richness. This fact merely reinforces the likelihood that the indoctrination that aspirants undergo whilst awaiting 'Knowledge', is a main ingredient in their perception and interpretation of the experience. It is obviously most unlikely that people will take the trouble to practice as single-mindedly (as is neccessary to have much experience) unless they had some instruction and encouragement from others. However I hardly think this justifies the mind-numbing process that is in place for these people. Some have expressed that they felt humiliated and considerably stressed by the demands that were made upon them to listen to endless and highly suggestive satsang. I think there's a real point in being taught by a 'Master' of ANY subject. My ex-girlfriend received knowledge but shortly later was disillusioned about Maharaji as a master. (After attending many programs she left.) She told me after one event. 'Maharaji was demanding respect. A good teacher doesn't demand respect, he earns it' The distinction she made was hard to disagree with considering the way Maharaji had spoken earlier. In this sense, Maharaji is his own worst enemy sometimes. You wrote: Your own mind can, and often does, betray you. I can give you countless examples of this on request. There is, indeed, a profound duality within you and it's quite valuable to know that, so that you can know the difference and proceed wisely. If you learn nothing else from Maharaji, you should pick up on this. I personally didn't need Maharaji to bring to my attention the well-known fact that the mind has power to create problems if misinterpreted or enflamed by various emotions and passions. I was well aware of this. However, I embraced the notion that practicing knowledge might improve my ability to resist destructive thoughts etc. Of course practicing meditation does help to some extent although many people can distinguish very ably, with the aid of their healthy consciences, what is a healthy attitude, without medititating in this way. It is Maharaji's suggestion that, without the Master's Grace, one is not truly capable of controlling one's mind, that demonizes the mind, in my opinion, too much. Also I am not comfortable that the 'Maharaji experience' so confidently billed as being that of the 'Heart' (stressed-as opposed to the mind) is actually what it is claimed. I see a lot of wild emotion there for a start. You say: This teaching is not meant to install fear, it's meant to help you discern between what's real and what's just a warped mental side-trip. If I may say so, many premies I have encountered seem to suffer from some uniquely premie-ish and very persistent 'warped mental side-trips' which may have something to do with the way they see the 'mind' as something to fearfully 'run away from' or 'surrender to Maharaji' rather than to deal with squarely. Also, it's one thing saying 'It's not meant to install fear' if in practice it does. If a friend of mine's relationship to Maharaji felt to be ruled by fear, wishful thinking, desperation or projection, I'd say, 'get the hell out of there!' at least until you got to some kind of straight-ahead place about it. So how many people have you told that?! Sandra, some people clearly are/were intimidated and that is surely partly why this site has arisen. I think we agree on this. I think that fear is like a bad dream - face it and it goes away. The reason why I have beaten a retreat from the influence of Maharaji and Knowledge for the moment, is that I have indeed faced my fears and can see that they were largely dreams put upon me by what I was told during as a premie. I can not tolerate religiosity any more - which I see as being a process which includes a degree of intimidation. It's not just that I was motivated by fears, I wasn't, but I also dissapprove of there being things that can encourage anyone to become fearful. If you are in a place that is straight-ahead and feels comfortable with your conscience then I am glad for you. It's best that we follow our consciences first and foremost in my opinion. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 13:01:18 (EDT)
From: Liz Email: None To: Anon Subject: Belated reply to Sandra Message: Dear Anon, I found your reply to Sandra was very helpful. I am going to print it out. It was a very well thought out answer. It helped clarify some of my thoughts and doubts. When you say you have beaten a retreat does this mean you are taking a break or have you definately decided this 'path' is not for you? Love Liz Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 15:46:39 (EDT)
From: Anon Email: None To: Liz Subject: Why I backed off. Message: When you say you have beaten a retreat does this mean you are taking a break or have you definately decided this 'path' is not for you? Liz, A few years ago I had a kind of crisis of conscience and doubt which made me feel very uncomfortable about practicing knowledge. Also I was enjoying, fundamentally, a life that had been denied me as ashram premie and by comparison, that former life seemed to have been restrictive, creatively stifling, controlled, intense and really rather miserable. I tried to carry on attending programs, seeing Maharaji etc. but the memories and associations became upsetting. Strangely enough, I am quite certain too that my health was adversely affected by the stress. So for a combination of reasons I started to back off. It wasn't a sudden withdrawal. It was a spiritual and physical neccessity. One of the easiest things to drop was attending videos. I found them increasingly unrewarding to watch. I really had heard so much satsang that I was beyond appreciating them. I felt very much the disapproval from premie friends at my 'breaking rank' and after my participation on this site and discussions with friends, was told that I had a reputation as a 'dissenter'. This made me feel obviously rather uncomfortable about going to events so I determined that I would rather not go at all any more. I felt that was the most honest thing to do. I think I actually also felt, that very English of emotions, some embarassment at the idea of being glared at. All the same, to answer your question, I have never made a concrete and momentous decision that 'this path is not for me', since I had been so integrally on it for so long, my current position seems more or less a continuation, a development of 'my' path, as indeed does my partaking in discussions about it here. I still feel no urge to attend programs and no great desire to meditate. I have also found other, very rewarding and happy ways to spend my time. I have never sought to be overtly vindictive about Maharaji but more to dispell myths and delusions for myself and, I suppose, my close friends. I am led by my conscience to question many things and yet I confess that I am somewhat tempered by my former loyalty to Maharaji. In some ways I think he is as much a victim of his upbringing as anything. I just think that he is in such an influential position and has had such a variety of effect on people that he should not be exempt from criticism or analysis. I strongly think that Maharaji should not disregard the troubles of those who have a hard time coming to terms with the intensive life that he put them through in the ashram. If he offered to hold a meeting to put to rest these ghosts, I would be tempted to attend. I have had very angry moments here in the past which have surprised me. Now I feel very much more at peace and balanced, even unperturbed about the subject. I think I did the right thing to back off and probably also the right thing to determine to investigate, with equal intensity, those things that troubled me. The truth is, if practicing Knowledge had made me truly happy I would still be there doing Service, Satsang and Meditation. I was just unhappy, troubled in my conscience and frankly...bored, so I stopped. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 03:43:32 (EDT)
From: Zac Email: None To: Anon Subject: Why I backed off. Message: Dear Anon, I also enjoyed both of your posts. Thanks. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 13:25:37 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Anon Subject: Please correct this Message: Like it or not, the techniques have always been secret, regardless of 'lines of succession' and tradition. You can check that out in the Bhagavad Gita, The ancient Egyptians, The Guru Granth Sahib and The Aquarian Gospel to name 4 to start. The reason has always been the same. People should understand the preciousness of the inner realm and give it a real chance, not just treat it like an episode of Seinfeld. I think I gave all needed references to show that these famous 'secret techniques' have always been public knowledge in India, as they are carefully described in various famous Indian scriptures. It's also a well known fact that some 'gurus' (not only Prempal Rawat) have recently tried to hide this fact, and claim these techniques are secret! Bibliography on the meditation techniques Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 11:29:23 (EDT)
From: Way Email: None To: Everyone Subject: 'I'm off to see the wizard' Message: Sandra, below, ends a post with a cheery 'I'm off to see the wizard.' Is she refering to Maharaji, and perhaps a live feed from Montreal? She had just condescended to offer a lengthy explanation of why the term 'leader' is distasteful to her Master. Does she really think the reference to the Wizard of Oz would please him more? I personally do find the Oz reference highly appropriate!! I once came home from work to my little ashram and found that the carpenter-types of the community were busy building a stage in the living room/satsang hall. This was just after a festival and I guess the mood was lingering. Upon completion a few days later, the stage took up almost half of the room. The stage was complete with plush carpeting, an expensive brown armchair, soft pillow for the feet, arti tray and charanumvrit bottle, pictures and musical instruments. Had Rawat actually visited us in person he would have towered above us if he had been able to maneuver past all the periphenalia. I remember sitting before this monstrous empty chair and being reminded of the Wizard of Oz. The more I think about it, the more and more the whole Oz story seems a perfect analogy for Rawat's personality cult. Dorothy represents the ignorant human being lost from her true spiritual home. Her three companions represent aspects of her own longing as she is wishing for knowledge, a heart, courage and her true home. She is told that the great Wizard will grace her with fulfillment of all her desires. She goes to receive the blessings but discovers that the great man demands that before the grace can be given she must serve the master by destroying the darkside of her nature as symbolized by the wicked witch of the West. Once she has done this, she finds out that the great wizard is just a front for a short little man with no powers!!! After the little fraud is exposed, the true Higher Self, (as symbolized by Glenda, the good witch of the North), arrives in a ball of light and tells Dorothy and her aspects that she all along has had all the gifts within her: wisdom, love, courage and the power to return to the true home. After the fake Master gets stuck in his stupid baloon, Dorothy clicks her heals and finds her true Self. Moral of the story: drop the guru and use the slippers! I personally don't believe that the ruby-reds of self-knowledge can ever be used until one is ready to renounce the trickery and special effects of the 'non-leader.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 11:32:51 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Way Subject: Great post, Way Message: Fantasies of humanity. If anyone asked what premies secretly longed for back then, maybe the answer was to see their 'master' as a human being. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 11:58:40 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Way Subject: The wonderful wizard of Oz Message: 'But God has manifested Himself and if he had manifested after one year it would have been too late, too late.' The above quote from Guru Maharaj Ji just came to mind the other day. I remember seeing it on a film, probably 'Satguru Has Come' and it was a line which I innocently took on board and to heart, in a big way. Back then I used to love these references Maharaji gave to him being God. I also actually used to think that this young Maharaji was quite a good and impassioned orator, especially since he was so young. Further proof that this was the Lord. About thirteen years later a rather less impassioned, aging ex-boy god finally admitted to all and sundry that he was not God. Hey that's a bit of a disappointment, isn't it. And so true is your analogy, Way, of the wonderful wizard of Oz. Very well put and now when I next see the film, I'll see it in a new light. Mind you, I never thought the man pretending to be the wizard was particularly evil or manevelant. Just a bumbling man who thought he should keep up the pretence. Maharaji isn't bumbling and he knows he is deceiving people for the wrong reasons. He's not so genial as the real wizard of Oz. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 13:04:24 (EDT)
From: Liz Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: The wonderful wizard of Oz Message: Thanks Way. I enjoyed the analogy. Liz Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 12:27:51 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Way Subject: Roger... *The best of* Message: Dear Way, This was priceless! I had made the connection to the Wizard but not the rest, excellent!!! Thanks. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 14:55:16 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek Email: None To: Robyn Subject: ***Best*** Message: Roger's House of Maharaji Drek and the ***Best*** Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 15:03:38 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Way Subject: 'I'm off to see the wizard' Message: Wow! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 04:00:45 (EDT)
From: Stacey Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Glad to find this site Message: I am very glad to have found this site. A new friend had been slowly introducing me to Maharaji stuff. I liked what he shared and wasn't aware of what marharaji's really like. He gave me a video and I liked that too. He then offered me a second video and was sharing more stuff with me when I found this site on-line. I have read almost all the stories on the journey page, have been reading the nuts & bolts page and this forum and thanks to you all, have been able to make an INFORMED choice, based on all this info on here as to whether or not I wish to join this cult. I will not be joining, that's for sure. I cannot thank you all enough for sharing your hearts and pain, stories and info as it's really helped me and I am sure will help others. Needless to say, I will not be spending anything money/time/spirutal-quest wise on the man behind this most heinous of deceptions! To the proprietors of this forum and to all you brave people who had the guts to stand up and speak out, thank you! -Stacey B Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 05:27:50 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Stacey Subject: Glad to find this site Message: Dear Stacey, That is this site at it's best. When someone who is in the process of being reeled in, even though your new friend isn't thinking of it that way, I am sure, but you have had the chance, as you said, to make an informed choice. If most of us had had that we wouldn't have joined either. I think we all deserve to make our desicions based on facts and am glad it worked that way for you! Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 06:16:31 (EDT)
From: JHB Email: None To: Stacey Subject: Glad to find this site Message: Stacey, As Robyn said, your new friend will not like your decision, and is likely to feel anger towards this site (and possibly you for visiting it). If the friendship isn't based on you following Maharaji, then you could have some interesting conversations with your friend in the future. If he is anything like the premies who post here, you will experience some unusual use of logic!:-) All the best, John. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 09:06:52 (EDT)
From: AJW Email: None To: Stacey Subject: Glad to find this site Message: Hiya Stacey, Welcome to the Wild Frontier. If I was Perfect Master, I'd make all the aspirants read the Forum for a few weeks while preparing for knowledge. Then I could sell a few cars, retire to Cornwall and spend the rest of my life fishing. Guru Anthji, Avatar of the Pool Table, Revealer of the Holy Porridge, (It's on the shelf with the breakfast cereals.) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 18:24:34 (EDT)
From: CD Email: None To: Stacey Subject: Glad to find this site Message: >I liked what he shared and wasn't aware of what marharaji's really like. You certainly can not tell what Maharaji is 'really like' by reading this site. You do get a version from a certain perspective. There happens to be a lot positive about what Maharaji speaks about at his talks around the world. That may be the reason why you liked what your friend shared with you. >man behind this most heinous of deceptions! I disagree stronly with this assessment. I learned about Maharaji in 1972 in England and have followed his progress most of the years since. The association has brought me great times, inspiration for my life and a deep respect for the fundamental life that is in all human beings. The lesson I have learned is that the ultimate answers must be discovered by each of us in the mystery of our own self. Regards, CD San Diego,CA Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 18:36:47 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: CD Subject: You can't see the harm, CD Message: I disagree stronly with this assessment. I learned about Maharaji in 1972 in England and have followed his progress most of the years since. The association has brought me great times, inspiration for my life and a deep respect for the fundamental life that is in all human beings. The lesson I have learned is that the ultimate answers must be discovered by each of us in the mystery of our own self. The association has also made you brain-dead. I have to wonder, the only time you put on your good shirt, wipe the drool off your shoes and venture out to speak in full sentences is when you peep up to try to lull to sleep some new person. Like here. But what I wonder is what possible impression you think you're making. Chris, you look, for all intents and purposes, like someone who isn't all there. Maybe it's just a speech defect or something. Whatever. But are you even slightly aware of how you come off? Can you answer this is English? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jun 17, 1999 at 00:44:07 (EDT)
From: CD Email: None To: Jim Subject: You can't see the harm, CD Message: >The association has also made you brain-dead. I have to wonder, the only time you put on your good shirt, wipe the drool off your shoes and venture out to speak in full sentences is when you peep up to try to lull to sleep some new person. Like here. But what I wonder is what possible impression you think you're making. Your characterization of me as 'brain-dead' shouts about your own character. You're a good writer but you're not so hot. You have little to say about anything positive but plenty of mean spirited barbs to hurl. You say I 'can't see the harm'. I say you don't give an honest damn about people besides yourself. Your intent is the root of harm. CD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 19:01:34 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: Stacey Subject: Glad to find this site Message: Hi Stacey! Welcome to the wonderful world of the ex-premies and the Forum. I am really glad that you found this site too. As others have warned you above, your premie friend may get very irritated about what you have found here, or he may not care at all. Be aware that many of the ex's who post here were involved with M for many, many years, and some held high positions in his organizations. No one comes here to post misinformation. People post here to provide information to each other, to aspirants (like you) so that they can have an accurate picture of just what they're getting into, and to educate premies who are starting to wonder whether the gig is actually something quite different than as it is publicly portrayed. If what you have learned here causes you discomfort about M and knowledge, then pay attention to that feeling. Follow your own instincts, whatever they may be. Listen to your own heart, and then make the decision. BUYER BEWARE! I'd be interested to know what information convinced you the most that this was not for you. Marianne Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 19:58:45 (EDT)
From: Stacey Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Glad to find this site Message: Hi everyone, Thanks for your responses. To CB - I spent almost a week reading info on this site, reading the private journeys, listening to the pain in all those words, hearing how people have been disilusioned etc. I don't need to spell it out, you can go read there too - it is, after-all, public info. What I learned from Maharaji's site was basically that I wasn't allowed to know much - yet. Always that 'yet', always this secrecy. I gained a sense of 'I must be stupid to not know what Knowledge is' and the friend who gave me the video would be just as evasive; being coy with using words like 'satsang' and 'knowledge' and various other words without explaining them and evading my questions re that OR he'd answer with more terms I didn't know. He wouldn't 'enlighten me' on what he was on about, bar to give me a video. I now know what satsang means, what knowledge is and through this site have studied the glossary of terms. What did I like from his video? The message that I have what I need inside of myself. I still feel that to be true. I don't feel it to be true that I have to devote my life to swearing alliegence to anyone but myself to find it though. I respect your right to do so, if you so wish. What I find 'heinous' as stated in my first post, was the covert nature he employs to rope people in. If you didn't find it covert or heinous, than that's your right to believe. Marianne, what information convinced me the most? I guess the journey's page most of all. I literally spent hours reading through them. I'd downloaded them and was astounded at the depth of pain shared within, not to mention courage. Also this forum. I was at first astounded by the anger expressed here and had to wonder at the pain behind that anger. It's easy to put on a smile, tell someone 'Love' words and give an air of everything being fine...but it takes monumental pain for there to be anger. That clinched it for me too. CB - why, isn't there much available on Maharaji sites without premies screening you first for 'sincerity'? That is such a contradiction. You need a password to even look at pictures of Maharaji. Why all the secrecy and sceening if he has nothing to hide and everything to give? Once again, thanks for all your replies. I'm aware that when I hand my video back to my friend, and tell him I don't wish to view more, that things are going to be 'interesting'. From reading this site and links to others like it (plus reading Maharaji things - little that there is without me already being a premie to get to it), I even wonder that it's worth the effort to explain anything re my choice. It may be easier to just say, 'thanks but no thanks' and leave it at that. Thanks again all and keep up the great work on this site. Regards -Stacey Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 20:04:23 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Stacey Subject: Your best bet Message: It may be easier to just say, 'thanks but no thanks' and leave it at that. Yup. Actually Maharaji is not the Perfect Master, though. That would be his oldest brother, Guru Maharaj Ji. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 21:31:58 (EDT)
From: Mary M Email: None To: Stacey Subject: To Stacey only... Sshhhh.... Message: Good Luck Stacey, Excellent choice: It may be easier to just say, 'thanks but no thanks' and leave it at that. Now, if your friend is wearing an overcoat and tries the ole 'Hey Baby, can I interest you in a watch instead?' line. Run like heck away from him. Tawdry and tacky business these EV fencers thrive on. Love, Mary M Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 19:31:06 (EDT)
From: Mary M Email: None To: CD Subject: The Plastic Bucketeer Answer? Message: I disagree stronly with this assessment. I learned about Maharaji in 1972 in England and have followed his progress most of the years since. Hi CD, This is awesome. Someone who was in England and has been with Maharaji ever since. Why didn't you let on before? O.K. I'm ready and eagerly awaiting the answer to where my grandmother Nellie's watch was pawned, shipped, stuffed in a suitcase... whatever after it was deposited in the 5 gallon white plastic pre-darshan 'please deposit all valuables' buckets after the London program circa 74 ish. Katie said once your not that bad a chap. So please, please, please - tell the truth. L, Mary Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 04:13:57 (EDT)
From: The Seer Email: None To: Mary M Subject: Nellie's watch is... Message: After you placed it into the bucket the watch took a strange journey, indeed. Approximately 12 minutes later the plastic bucket was replaced with an empty plastic bucket by a WPC premie named Howie who was accompanied by another brother who shall remain nameless. Howie carried the bucket back to the counting room and knocked on the door. The door was answered by another WPC premie named Kevin who took the bucket and quickly closed the door. Kevin took the bucket to the table where three other WPC brothers were sitting and separating the loot. Kevin walked back to his chair near the door, sat down, closed his eyes and began remembering Holy Name. He never saw the watch nor would he ever see it. Michael sat at the table and reached into the bucket and starting pulling out items which he sorted and put into other boxes that were passed to George and Dean who made the final decision as to where the items would be going next. Michael looked briefly at Nellie's watch but thought nothing of it. Michael would later pocket a Timex self-winding watch. He felt little remorse as he had been told that Guru Maharaj Ji hated those cheap little Timex watches. George was in charge of cash and jewelry. Dean knew something about watches, but not much. There was three categories of watches. The first category was the most expensive watches that would go to Guru Maharaj Ji to paw over and ultimately dispense to mahatmas or other VIPs. The second category were the watches that had some marketable value at the local pawnshops. The last category were watches that would be smuggled back to India and given to the ashram premies there. Dean picked up Nellie's watch and saw that it was a vintage watch. The pawn shops preferred newer watches. So, the decision was made that it would go to India. However...(to be continued) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 08:03:57 (EDT)
From: Mary M Email: None To: The Seer Subject: Nellie's watch is... Message: Well thank you kind Seer for the long awaited answer. If it went to India to be dispensed then I shall look at it as a charitable contribution to the individual in India who had the unfortunate 'karma' of knowing M. But, if you saw the watch you would know that M might have kept it. Now I'm wondering how fat Maharaji's wrist is? If his wrist is in proportion to the rest of his body then he wouldn't have worn the watch in his cross dressin, Krishna crown, dancin and prancin, Lord Of the Universe days, as it was designed for a dainty wrist. On the other hand;-) If he kept it for his offspring then I'll need to try and guess the genetic odds of his offspring inheriting their fathers bone structure as opposed to their mothers. Oh what a conunddrum. Eye color is much easier to figure out... genetically that is. Mary .... waiting for part II. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 09:24:44 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Mary M Subject: I know where's the watch Message: I was living in the ashram then, and had various occasions to deal with all this 'junk': Divine Sales took care of the sale, and the money 'gifted' to the Lord. Still any question? Only the cash and 'love letters' were sent to m directly. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 11:03:24 (EDT)
From: Mary M Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: I know where's the watch Message: Thanks JM, And a nice Irish 'Pox' on the Satguru, trickster, prickster. L, M Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jun 17, 1999 at 00:29:00 (EDT)
From: CD Email: None To: Mary M Subject: The Plastic Bucketeer Answer? Message: >O.K. I'm ready and eagerly awaiting the answer to where my grandmother Nellie's watch was pawned, shipped, stuffed in a suitcase... Yes, Katies right. I'm a pretty cool person. Get a life. I gave away a great Rickenbacher 12 string and a Martin and I don't spend my days whining about it on web sites. CD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jun 17, 1999 at 08:52:53 (EDT)
From: Mary M Email: None To: CD Subject: Jim - Which Apologia? Message: Hi Jim, I just can't recall the correct Maharaji Apologia that applies to CD's answer: Yes, Katies right. I'm a pretty cool person. Get a life. I gave away a great Rickenbacher 12 string and a Martin and I don't spend my days whining about it on web sites. CD, Ya gotta admit somewhere deep in side you miss that Martin. Did you get it from your granny? x, M Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jun 17, 1999 at 10:09:31 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Mary M Subject: Oh, it's probably a new one Message: Something to the effect of: I'm stupid enough to fall for this shit so you should be too. I'm not complaining so why are you? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 23:33:42 (EDT)
From: No One Email: None To: CD Subject: Glad to find this site Message: CD , You are very right in what you have stated. If a person is really interested in this then they would go ask the author of the videos.. rather then get it on this forum. But it is so easy to look at a screen... rather then into the eyes of a real person. Most likly this person is a plant by someone here. They have know idea who and what about true love. Happiness has nothing to do with videos . Contentment has nothing to do with friends giving us a video to watch. Man I would investigate till I really new the truth about life. I wouldn't stop at this forum...if My life depended on it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 00:24:41 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: No One Subject: How? I repeat, how? Message: CD , You are very right in what you have stated. If a person is really interested in this then they would go ask the author of the videos.. rather then get it on this forum. Now how in the world in this person or any person supposed to ask the 'author' anything? That' ain't in the program, bud. It's video to video to video to knowledge session to direct deposit to video to direct deposit to video. Most likly this person is a plant by someone here. No, goofus, that's not 'most likely'. It's a possibility, for sure, but it's not most likely. Most likely the person's legit. Live with it. By the way, you're spelling 'no' wrong. 'Know' is like 'Knowledge' ..... DUH! And 'new' is really spelled 'knew'. 'New' has nothing to do with 'knowing' something; it's more what you'd say if you were saying 'Happy New Breath!' They have know idea who and what about true love. Happiness has nothing to do with videos . Contentment has nothing to do with friends giving us a video to watch. Man I would investigate till I really new the truth about life. I wouldn't stop at this forum...if My life depended on it. Oh you're the big investigator, right? You didn't even know your fucking cult leader called himself God 'til I showed you. What a joke! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 11:11:13 (EDT)
From: No One Email: None To: Jim Subject: How? I repeat, how? Message: Your so shallow . Just can't seem to talk with shallow people. I am glad all lawyers are not as thick. Man you just are the boss here aren't you. Maybe I can't spell but at least I am not bannned from going to events in my own community. For being such a recognized asshole..like yourself...oh great learned one . Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 00:49:17 (EDT)
From: Liz Email: None To: No One Subject: Glad to find this site Message: 'It's so easy to look at a screen....than into the eyes of a real person......doesn't this remind you of premies watching videos twice a week. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 15:10:11 (EDT)
From: Mary M Email: None To: No One Subject: No One - Pixel Perfect Master Message: Geez No One, The times are a changing. Can't you foresee the not so distant future of the 'PIXEL PERFECT MASTER' on Web TV? But it is so easy to look at a screen... rather then into the eyes of a real person. Better get your high res monitor now. Oh, if you check with your local hospital's ER they can tell you where to purchase a 'bodily fluid PWK' safety shield for your keyboard. May your future be pixally perfect and bright, like about 10,000 suns I think it was. x, M Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 21:12:09 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Stacey Subject: Glad to find this site Message: Hi Stacey Glad to hear the forum has been helpful to you. Maharaji is a huge waste of time, IMO, there are so many good spiritual paths and religions out there (again this is my opinion), but beleive me, he is not one of them! Take care and thanks for your kind words. Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 09:19:21 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Stacey Subject: Excellent prognosis Message: Beside the satisfaction one can have knowing that one more person is going to avoid the m & k trap, it's very revealing reading Stacey's post to see that he still has his brains intact. His words have nothing to do with what you can read from anybody who's been more or less involved in the cult. Premies talk of 'maturity' when they're half brain-dead (like I was, and still recovering). Stacey's talking like a mature human being. Thank you for your comments. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 17:13:20 (EDT)
From: Roger Drek Email: None To: Stacey Subject: Stacey - Free pics of Maharaji Message: Stacey, You mentioned that you were unable to view the pictures of Maharaji on the www.premies.org website without a password. Well, fear not. Here's a free sans password website that contains those pictures. Free Maharaji pictures from Agent Everglades. Now your spiritual quest is complete. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 14, 1999 at 23:12:46 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Dysfunction & DLM Message: As I have become friends with many of the ex's who post here, and have shared information about our lives outside of the public forum, I have been struck by how many of us came from dysfunctional families. My mom was in medical school at Northwestern University in 1939 when she met my dad & got married pretty quickly, and not in the Catholic Church as she should have, if you catch my drift. My dad was a fratenity brother to men who ended up running IBM, XEROX, and Kodak, and he was supposed to have the same illustrious career. Mom never finished her medical degree & dad never ran a Fortune 500 company. They had my 4 older brothers and me, and gave us a good life in upstate New York and Michigan. But they both became adept at the art of tossing highly literate verbal barbs at each other and at us kids, esp. me, fueled by endless martinis and generous amounts of beer. They were high achievers who demanded the same from me, but woe to me if I brought home a B. B was an F. While this description may sound tame, I can assure you that spending a night at my house when my parents had been drinking and began to go off on each other was like being a part of the set of 'Whose Afraid of Virginia Woolf?' I remember my father telling me when I was 10 one evening as I walked through the living room, 'Why don't you just leave and never come back?' I was just walking by him and had done nothing. I hopped on my bike and went to my best friend's house to spend the night. These incidents grew more malevolent as the years passed. As some of you know, my father committed suicide when I was 17. This, of course, was a direct result of his alcoholism. I was glad to see him go actually, because he was such a viciously mean person. I am still haunted by this event though. I had received K 5 months before he died. After he died, I moved into a premie house. Within 6 months, I was in an ashram. It was 1973. The premie community I lived in was a good one with good people -- close premie friends --- in the ashram. Bill Patterson came to be the director right after Millenium. Bill was tyrannical, fanatical, and completely lacking in emotional insight and compassion. He would tolerate no deviation in his view of how things should be in the ashram and in the community. His dedication to the Denver DLM party hard line was unswerving and unquestioning. He was so robot like that I wondered if he had feelings. I understand that he has since left DLM/EV, so I guess he did develop some insights. But, he rode herd over us in the ashram, and was so lacking in affect, and so blind in his devotion, that I often wondered what kind of upbringing he had experienced. His treatment of the ashram premies was inhumane, and we should not have tolerated it. I often think I did so because of what happened to me at home. The stories I have read here about M's physically and emotionally abusive treatment of premies who are around him is dysfunctional in the extreme. It also sounds like alcoholic behavior. No one knows what will precipitate the next explosion of verbal or physical condemnation. That isn't lila. That's condoning the petulant snarls of an overgrown, spolied and mentally impaired child-man. No one should have to put up with such behavior. I think we tolerate such treatment because we grew up with it and have not developed the insight to understand what is happening and the life skills to escape such an envionment. What do you folks think? Marianne Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 14, 1999 at 23:45:28 (EDT)
From: Curly Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Dysfunction & me Message: Dear Marianne: You mentioned you father's suicide under my post before and I didn't answer it. The word still affects me very much, although it has been many years since my wife took her life. I wanted to say something to you but it was very difficult. Anyway,I just wanted to tell you that I know how you feel. I didn't know about M at the time this happened, but I'm sure if I had, I'd probably would have run to him and his promise of happyness, bliss, peace, etc. What I did do was go to psychotherapy. I went to four shrinks (the fourth was the keeper) since then. It took a lot of hard work to deal not only with this, but other baggage I had carried around for a long while. As you already know, even though it took a few years, eventually I got my life in some sort of order (well, it works for me) and was able to explore new relationships and so on. Still, when people have gone through some extreme trauma, even after it has been resolved, I guess there's is a part of one who wants to drown him/herself in some figurehead or concept in the hopes that it will replace that loss. In any case, I'm glad I didn't recieve knowledge. There was something very macabre in going through the aspirant process. I'm glad I kept my judgement for it's my favorite asset. Besides, think of the money I've saved on clothes pins. In the end, I realise that the peace I was looking for unravels in my everyday life. I think you have a point. Yours truly, Curly Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 00:07:03 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: MarianneDB@aol.com To: Curly Subject: Dysfunction & me Message: Curly: Those of us who have lived through a suicide have a special bond. I am sorry for the loss of your wife. It must have been very difficult. If you want to tell me, did you have kids? How old were you? You don't need to respond to this if you don't want to. Or, you can email me. It's up to you. I saw a truly wonderful therapist for two years in my mid-20's who helped me to alter my life and release much of the burden of my upbringing. Suicide taught me to tell people I love them and appreciate them whenever I have the chance, at the risk of being misunderstood, because I know I may never have another opportunity to do so. You are lucky you missed the knowledge boat. I think that the process has gotten more evil in these later years as the American initiators visited their power trips on people. Yeah, I live my life making people beg for something. What a claim to fame! Nice to hear from you, Curly! Marianne Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 13:16:10 (EDT)
From: Liz Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Dysfunction & me Message: Hi Marianne, I always felt my childhood was pretty functional. I did however, have something pretty traumatic happen to me just before I receive K and friends did warn me that 'cults like to hook people when they are vunerable' or words to that effect that went unheeded by me. I did feel at the time that I was 'helped' by K. Now I am realizing there was truth in friends warnings. As for Instructors power trips. I have recently encountered one when I went to pick one up at an airport. I felt quite physically sick about it and wanted to say something to her but didn't think I could. (The Kings New Clothes syndrome once again.) I can tell you the power trips are definately still going on by the more insecure instructors. Love, Liz Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 21:53:28 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Marianne Subject: Dysfunction & me Message: Dear Marianne and Curly, I knew I wanted to read this thread and was still avoiding it. I am so sorry to hear about suicide touching both your lives. There is another ex who use to post here whose daughter did the same this last winter. He reached out to me and a couple others here and I shared in a minut percent of his depth of pain and sadness. I am glad you both have come through and regained your lives in the large part. I only wish he was still around to get support for either or both of you. He tried therapy and didn't find anyone worth while and now he has gone away. I would like to, if and hopefully when he is in touch, to tell him about one or both of you and let him know he can contact you. Thanks. 'You are lucky you missed the knowledge boat. I think that the process has gotten more evil in these later ' I have gotten this feeling from what I've read from more recent ex's and from current and mean spirited premies. Yes I too am from a dysfunctional family, a Catholic background and a religious yet violent mother. I have discussed this phenomena within an email group of people I email from here also. Curious isn't it. I didn't have a bad experience in the cult but I think that promise of love and perfection was quite a draw. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 14, 1999 at 23:45:51 (EDT)
From: gregg Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Dysfunction & DLM Message: While my father was not as abusive as yours...in fact, not 'abusive' in any sense of the word, he was often saracastic and dismissive. He tried hard to be loving. And the fact that emotional expression was obviously difficult for him made this effort endearing. He meant well, but had problems in his childhood...as my mom explained to me...you know how these things get passed on. Anyway, Dad became a psychiatrist. The point I'm leading up to is an obvious one, one that doesn't take a psychiatrist to figure out, but it's kind of the opposite of your point, Marianne. It's that, not having been blessed with a naturally warm and loving father, I was ripe for one. the appearance of one. So, even if, in reality, GMJ was/is an alcoholic/abuser, the image I kept of him, as one who was never destined to know him as a person, was a loving, all-accepting father. A Father. Forever. Ughhh. Sounds pathetic, I know, but I'm sure that was a part of it, for me. Easy-as-pie Enlightenment sounded good, too. something for nothing! Get it while it's hot! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 00:13:51 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: gregg Subject: Dysfunction & DLM Message: Gregg: How true! You hit the nail on the head! In the beginning, I saw M as the all loving, accepting Father I never had, and so needed, especially at that juncture in my life. M was the vision of the Perfect Father. In reality, he was the abusive father from whom I sought to escape. In coming to the realization that M was not the person I had envisioned, I left the cult and went on my way to see who I really was and to find a way to change the world, my most ardent and life long desire. So daddy was a shrink. How did you avoid medical school? Any of your siblings end up there? What did he think about M? Marianne Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 05:22:04 (EDT)
From: Anon Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Dysfunction & DLM Message: This thread has a sad but warm tone to it. I find it interesting because I had a similar experience in the Ashram in the UK in the 70's, where I was bossed about and intimidated by various dysfunctional premies. The difference is that I came from a very stable family background with very loving parents and the ashram cult effectively made me ignore their existence almost completely.( I look upon this as a story similar to the 'Pied Piper' who lured children from their families to seal them in a cave). I was sorry later since my father was an elderly gentlemen (who no doubt was totally confused about the fate of his youngest boy), and who died just before the ashrams were closed. Ironically, I returned home then and helped my widowed mother. Things mercifully looked up from then on but I really wish I had spent more time with my dad who was a really interesting and loving old man (1896-1981). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 09:46:35 (EDT)
From: KK Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Dysfunction & Life Message: There is a lot of emphasis on family in our society, isn't there? People compare family experiences, relative degrees of love, dysfunction and abuse. Clearly our perception of our family occupies a considerable amount of thinking time. I've dealt a lot with 'criminals', namely people passing through the criminal justice system for varying lengths of time. I've noticed that almost invariably there is a family pattern at work which is palpably negative. In fact, I conducted some conscious research about this over a few years and it kept emerging, even with so-called white collar offenders. In time, I'd discover some terrible aspect of their lives that had influenced their behaviour at a critical point in time, often resulting in a crime that I would then argue in terms of an aberration. Nowadays I see that the notion of family is changing dramatically. Life has truly gone 'funny'. When I was a kid watching 'My Three Sons' and 'Leave it to Beaver', I dreamed of living in such a family. The father and mother called each other 'Honey' and meant it. The biggest problem was navigating one of the boys through an adolescent hiccup with 'understanding'. Fred MacMurray was always understanding. They even had milk in cartons when we only had it in bottles in Australia. Now I feel spurious when I consider how covert those two families were. How conditioned I was by them! How they unrealistically raised my expectations. Therefore, in turn, how audacious I became about how my family ought to be. In truth, I looked for the perfect family when I came to the cult. I was just a kid as well, about 15 or 16. Everyone became my brother and sister. My family even joined in this mythical game of substituting our best offering to one another with a perfect alternative called DLM (by also becoming premies). Now I'll tell you something. When you leave this perfect family, it's worse than any Mafia or abusive, dysfunctional, substandard unit called an average family. The resentment that premies feel towards dissenters is so strong that an ex-premie becomes a total outcast. Far worse than marrying the boy your parents didn't like and getting the cold shoulder for a year or two. More extreme than moving states and getting a sly divorce so as not to upset them and in time, explaining that your 'perfect spouse' in their eyes was in fact, a louse. All of that is human frailty, including the unfair manner in which parents dismiss the needs of their children due to their incapacity. The 'premie family' is an actively toxic and vindictive power mongering squadrant which consciously discriminates in the harshest terms against anyone it determines is no longer to be trusted and treated as one of its own. Yeah, MJ is such a great guy. He really has some wonderful family values, like 'get in first', 'tread over everyone to get where you're going', 'shaft anyone who challenges you' or at least, his devotees maintain such visionary ideals on his behalf and deliberately perpetuate them as right conduct. I'm glad I left home. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 12:29:47 (EDT)
From: gregg Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Dysfunction & DLM Message: 1. How did I avoid med school? He never suggested it to any of us! In fact, he made it sound boring. Besides, I was not too scientifically inclined. The thought never occurred to me. 2. siblings? Two of them are in your neck of the woods...a psychologist in Berkeley and a mathematician in Livermore. One's a hospital VP, the other two are doctors. I have always been the token bohemian (drug dealer, performance artist, traveling musician, cult member). Now, of course, I am normal. (kind of) 3. My dad, raised Catholic, very much an unbeliever, always compared my belief to his ex-belief, which infuriated me, because, as you know, we saw the Light and they were just deluded Christians. And he would conclude by comparing Maharaj Ji with the Pope. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 09:28:55 (EDT)
From: AJW Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Dysfunction & DLM Message: Hi Marianne, I suspect you've hit a seam here. This would be a lovely topic for some Psychology student to do a doctorate on, 'The relationship between dysfunctional families and cult members.' My father got messed up psychologicaly by world war 2 and a few years afterwards. He was a paratrooper who spent about 6 years killing people. He stayed in the Paras after the war and, because of his combat experience, was used to do all sorts of dodgy things, often involving killing people. This, mixed up with his general lawlessness, meant that when he left the army, when I was about 2, he was in no fit state to live in society. He was a hard drinker, and a very tough, hard guy, with no sense whatsoever of the normal restraints that moderate our social behaviour. If there was a record for being banned from pubs, my dad would be a contender. All this made for quite a tough childhood, and I agree with the sentiments expressed above, it set me off looking for some kind of father figure. When we deal with all this 'passed down' crap, the world becomes a better place. As regards therapy, and all that stuff. I'd rather not open the bin. It's full of squirming slimy things. I'd rather leave the lid on and let them starve to death. Anth the 'Is my half hour up yet'. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 19:17:39 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: AJW Subject: Dysfunction & DLM Message: Anth: What a story! I felt like I was watching a war movie as I read your post. Here's a hug for you all the way from San Francisco. M tricked us into thinking he was the Divine Father who was going to make a perfect world and the premies would be our perfect family. Instead, it seems we signed up for more years of what we were trying to escape. BTW, I always read your posts. You've been engaged in long discussions with Rob and Sandra, I believe, and the cat too. I ignore the cat. I don't engage in discussions with the premies very much. It seems useless. If they want to follow the guy still, that's their business. Given all this information, it seems silly to me, but it's not up to me to convince them otherwise. You've been very patient and thoughtful in your responses. Love, Marianne Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 22:14:29 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: AJW Subject: Dysfunction & DLM Message: Dear Anth, Once I was talking to my girls about my wretched mother and my childhood and how I had improved on it all with my girls and that then they would improve on what I had done with them when they had their kids and on and on until we ended the cycle of violence and dysfunction from our family tree. I think that as long as I work at being honest, sometimes painfully so with myself and my children about what I came from and where I have made mistakes with my girls, as opposed to my mother denying any wrong doing until I was 39 yrs old and my father not even able to talk about more than how your car is running (although I know he loves his children), that this lessening of the dysfunction is possible, I hope so. Certainly seems like you have made a similar progress. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jun 17, 1999 at 06:56:13 (EDT)
From: AJW Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Dysfunction & DLM Message: Hi Robyn, As an historian, I'm really interested in where we came from. If you accept the theory of evolution, which I do, then we came from animals. History charts the progress of humanity from our animalistic past by bookmarking it with major events, wars, inventions, migrations, economics etc. But I think most of the real progress for humanity comes when each individual makes an improvement in the quality of life for the next generation. We say massive buildings were made by designers, planners and architects, but really they were done by ordinary people, laying one brick on top of another, then going home for dinner. No body remembers the names of the people who do all the work. Adios. take care Anth the Philosophical By the way, Jackson is in the envelope, but not in the postbox yet. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jun 17, 1999 at 08:00:50 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: AJW Subject: Thanks A, still holding breath Message: aqeur=q9 Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 10:23:13 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Marianne Subject: M:the Ultimate Dysfunctional Message: Thanks for this thread Marianne, this is a subject I'm sure most ex-premies have thought about. How did we get involved in something so weird and dysfunctional? How did we ever follow and dedicate to someone as screwed up and ego-maniacial as Maharaji? It sounds like your childhood was hellish. I have to say mine wasn't, at least not any more than the average family. My dad was really a rather down-to-earth and loving guy. He ran a couple of supermarkets. He was easy to talk too. He took time to tell me and my siblings he was proud of us. He was an idealistic person -- he really believed that people could make things better. He was a Roosevelt Democrat, a believer in the great society, active with civil rights, and was a member of the ACLU. I really think my dad's idealism rubbed off on me. I was involved in the anti-war movement as a teenager, and I think was was attracted to DLM by the promise of bringing peace, and ending war, through people becoming happy and experiencing love from the inside, since change didn't appear to be happening fast enough on the outside. This, of course as far as M was concerned, was crap, but I definitely fell for it. I always had a very hard time feeling much attraction to M. I thought he was weird and I didn't like him much, and couldn't relate to him as my 'father.' Maybe that's because my relationship with my own dad was good. I tried to feel what other premies said they felt about M, but I never really did. My mom could be a little hysterical -- mostly stressed out at trying to make us the perfect American family, and the because she was a very intelligent and talented person but in her generation she wasn't really allowed to have her own career. She worked very hard raising five kids and trying to have the perfect home. We were immersed in the Catholic Church, which I do see as a generally negative influence on my life. I think part of my 'religious' and perhaps 'rigid' desire to 'follow the rules' in the ashram and M's agya came from my 'good Catholic boy' background because the Catholic Church is all about rules, regulations, 'sin,' and fear. So, is Maharaji's cult, basically. My involvement as a cult-member was very painful to my parents. I missed a number of years of spending time with them, I rejected them emotionally because that is what M said to do. They also saw me essentially drop out of actively involvement in the world, give Maharaji my trust fund, blow off my law school scholarship, miss my little sister's wedding, miss my grandfather's funeral, etc. As a premie, I felt guilty for loving my parents and family, and felt 'attached' because I wanted to be with them. This is one of the most destructive results of what Maharaji taught. I think because he hated his own family, he expected that we should do the same. As I have said, you can always make money, get a career, etc., but you can't ever really repair the damage that you do to people you love, and you can't get back the time you missed with them. My dad died in 1997, and at his funeral, my DLM involvement and the effect it had on him is about the only thing I really regreted. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 13:23:52 (EDT)
From: Liz Email: None To: JW Subject: M:the Ultimate Dysfunctional Message: Sounds like we have at least one thing in common. We were ALL pretty desparate? Do you know anyone that was totally content with their life that got involved?1! Love, Liz Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 13:25:42 (EDT)
From: Liz Email: None To: All Subject: Addendum Message: Off course M turns this desparation into a positively Holy thing and call it THIRST.....way too many times for my liking. Liz Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 14:23:26 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Liz Subject: Addendum Message: I think it is the nature of youth, especially of our generation, to question the way things are, etc. There is a documentary running on PBS in commeration of the millennium, called 'People's Century.' It basically covers the main events of the 20th Century. Last night was a program called '1968' that talked about all the youth protest in the US, France and the UK, against the Vietnam War, against consumerist society, against conformity, etc. On the other hand, it also covered the cultural 'hippie' movement, in which people believed that they could change society by just changing the way they live -- by dropping out. It was a pretty momentous change that happened and it had positive and negative effects. One thing the documentary pointed out was that ours was really the first generation that was wealthy enough in their teenage years to go to college, and think about what they wanted from life. In earlier generations, most people just put all their energies into getting by. So, people had the time to search out alternative ways and causes and hence there were incredible changes. That's the kind of think I was caught up in when I got involved the Maharaji's cult. He offered a simplistic solution to what I saw as a very screwed up world -- with the threat of nuclear annihilation, racial hatred, competition and war. It had some superficial appeal, but it turned out to be just another group with all the problems that any other group has, and the supposed 'experience' he gave didn't do much of anything except make some people 'think' they had something. It also had a kind of pseudo-spiritual appeal that attracted a lot of people. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 14:37:36 (EDT)
From: Liz Email: None To: JW Subject: Drop outs Message: Thanks J.W. I watched some of that programme too. I was especially interested in the guys that went to war and came back and handed back their medals. One guy said he was angry that he had to experience war for himself before he gave it up. I wasn't sure if he was angry at himself or at the consciencious objectors who hadn't experienced war. What did you think? I liked him anyway and felt a lot of compassion for his case. Love, Liz Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 16:44:23 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Liz Subject: Veterans Against the War Message: I think many of the Vietnam veterans really thought they were doing something patriotic by going to Vietnam for their country, but then they realized they were just killing and becoming savages, that there was no point to being there and so they felt betrayed. It really hit me when the Vietnam vet said that American soldiers took Viet Cong prisoners, tied sharp wires their eyes and bound their wrists and then had contests throwing them out of helicopters to their deaths. I think he was just appalled at what he had become such a savage and how his country had put him in that situation for no good reason. Plus, most of the young men that went to Vietnam were working class and minorities, as the rich, white kids could avoid being drafted by getting student deferments. The college students who were protesting the war had gotten out of the draft by going to college, and I think the veterans kind of resented that, although the two groups did link up to oppose the evil of the war. I agreed with the program when they said that it was really the large number of Vietnam Vets that began protesting the war that really brought the public around to opposing it as well, despite the many large demonstrations that students had engaged in around the country prior to that. John Kerry, who is now a US senator from Massachusetts, was once president of an organization called 'Vietnam Veterans Against the War.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 17:59:34 (EDT)
From: Sgt. Roger E. Drek Email: None To: JW Subject: Veterans Against the War Message: Yeah, a lot of folks got really fucked up from Vietnam. Vietnam is interesting in terms of Desert Storm and Kosovo where the surgical air strikes were so effective. Although the U.S. used (I think) more bombs in Vietnam than in World War II, it did not have quite the desired effect. The only way we could have won that with airpower would be to nuke both North and South Vietnam back into a stoneage wasteland. When the troops did the limited ground war in Desert Storm there was hardly any resistance primarily because of the softening up by bombing and because the poorly trained Iraqi troops probably had no big vested interest unlike the V.C. The V.C. was a formidable opponent. They practically bicyled materiel down the Ho Chi Minh (sp?) trail which was just a muddy slit through the jungle. Hopefully, with the brokered peace settlement in Kosovo we're gonna get off easy in terms of a ground war as the Serbs are a well trained killing machine. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 05:26:10 (EDT)
From: AJW Email: None To: Sgt. Roger E. Drek Subject: Surgical Air Strikes Message: Hi Roger, All this stuff about 'surgical air strikes' is bullshit. Most of the stuff dropped on Kosovo, like most of the stuff dropped on Iraq, is good old fashioned high explosives. It's much cheaper than these high tech missiles that make the survivors a cup of tea and send an email to Nato hq after they've gone off. The high tech missiles aren't as accurate as the CNN corporate videos make out either. There are examples in both wars of them hitting, not the wrong building, street, or even town, but the wrong country. Anth the Red. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 06:08:24 (EDT)
From: Sgt. Rocky Drek Email: None To: AJW Subject: I'm an Amerikan - You're not! Message: Damnit, AJW! My tax dollars are paying for all that ordnance and it had better be hitting the target. Hell, I know it's hitting the target because that's what the TV shows and the TV don't lie. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 12:22:07 (EDT)
From: AJW Email: None To: Sgt. Rocky Drek Subject: Yes Sarge' Message: Hmm, maybe you're right there Sarge. What the hell, they're all gooks aren't they? Private Anth the Racist Patriot. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 13:48:22 (EDT)
From: Sgt. Drek Email: None To: AJW Subject: 30 push-ups, Private! (nt) Message: asdf Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 12:58:10 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: AJW Subject: Don't Forget Cluster Bombs And Message: also, depleted uranium. There are unexploded cluster bombs all over Serbia and Kosovo. Those bombs look like brightly colored tennis balls and are attractive to children. Those bombs, which NATO and the US does NOT want to talk about, are used for the sole purpose of killing people, not destroying property or equipment. I read an interview with a Spanish pilot who said it was the US and the British who were demanding the bombing of civilian targets in Kosovo and Serbia proper. Apparently, the Spanish pilots protested this to no avail. It does appear that the motives here really were the destruction of the infrastructure of the region, including power plants, factories and bridges. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jun 17, 1999 at 07:08:39 (EDT)
From: AJW Email: None To: JW Subject: Cuba in Europe Message: Hi JW, I have this image of the NATO hotshots standing around a map of Europe after the collapse of the Soviet Empire around 87. All the hammer and sickles were gone, except for one big red bit in the middle, Yugoslavia- a communist state not aligned to the USSR, big army, big weapons industry, and apparently quite a happy population. Do you think they said, 'Let's ignore it and it will go away'? or maybe, 'We ain't having another Cuba in Europe. How shall we get rid of them'? Then nationalistic unrest starts in Croatia, and before you can blink, the agitators have been recognised by Germany as an independent country. Totally against all international law. Next came Bosnia etc, and with Kosovo we're witnessing the final stage in the plan. Destroy their army and weapons industry. Whadyya think JW? When Kohl resigned as Chancellor of Germany he said the greatest thing he did as Chancellor was to recognise Crotia's independence. Anth the Paranoid. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 13:40:09 (EDT)
From: JHB Email: None To: Liz Subject: M:the Ultimate Dysfunctional Message: Sounds like we have at least one thing in common. We were ALL pretty desparate? Do you know anyone that was totally content with their life that got involved?1! I think there was one journey in 'Who is Guru Maharaj Ji' where the writer stressed how content he was with his life before K. I think it was included because every other story was from people who were desparate. John Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 18:48:27 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: JW Subject: M:the Ultimate Dysfunctional Message: Hi Joe! Thanks to you and everyone who has responded. Besides the difficulties I was having at home, I too wanted to change the world. I was tremendously influenced by the anti war movement, but having been born in '56, I was not old enough to do much besides support the protesters and agree in my heart with the philosophy they expressed. In my darkest times at home, I considered running off to Detroit to try to join SDS and make bombs. Then my brother Neil found Maharaj Ji and off I went to receive K. I think getting K was probably a better choice than running away to Detroit, where who knows what could have happened to me. I too was persuaded that change inside meant change in the world. I still subscribe to that belief, but I no longer think of it in the simplistic terms I came to accept from M and DLM. K is a panacea. The hard work of finding out who I am and my place in the world cannot take place in the bell jar world M has created for his followers and himself. Real change requires human, emotional risk, experiences that M encourages premies to avoid. I was touched by your description of your family. They sound like wonderful people, Joe. I know the sense of loss I sometimes feel about things I did wrong with my family when I was involved. Your father sounds like such a good person. He must have made peace with you about your time in DLM before he died. I know we can't get the time back ever again, but that's a lesson I try to practice in my every day life so I don't repeat it. Your loving family is plainly one of the reasons why you are such a caring, compassionate person. You are lucky to have each other. BTW, do you have the LOTU video? If you're around this weekend, I'll trade you my Sacred Journeys for your LOTU. Much love, Marianne Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 19:25:51 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Marianne Subject: M:the Ultimate Dysfunctional Message: I too was persuaded that change inside meant change in the world. I still subscribe to that belief, but I no longer think of it in the simplistic terms I came to accept from M and DLM. K is a panacea. The hard work of finding out who I am and my place in the world cannot take place in the bell jar world M has created for his followers and himself. Real change requires human, emotional risk, experiences that M encourages premies to avoid. One of the things I have learned, the hard way, is that it's an illusion to think you can just do some practice to 'work on yourself' or have some kind of selfish nice feelings and that you would be changed as a result. Like you said, I think those kinds of changes happen symbiotically, through putting your values into action. I know you've been doing that and it must be very satisfying for you. One of the most destructive thing about Maharaji is that he encouraged people to withdraw from interactions with the world and other people, or at least to devalue them. Your father sounds like such a good person. He must have made peace with you about your time in DLM before he died. Yeah, he was a nice guy. Actually, when I told him I was getting out of the cult and that I thought I had been duped by a fraudulent guru, he just said he was happy and relieved. He never once said he ever felt slighted by all the stuff I had done. My mom, on the other hand, did have some resentment, but that went away as well, over time. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 22:35:07 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: JW Subject: M:the Ultimate Dysfunctional Message: Dear Joe, Do you remember a long time ago I told you you were a wonderful man, something to that effect? I still do. I enjoy reading what you write, I am not sure why. I like the way you think and the way you express yourself. I haven't read all of the forum in so long and miss a lot of what you write as well but this post really touched me. Most here have but for a different reason, the pain we went through as children but you didn't have that and were still drawn to M's cult because you thought you could help bring peace to the world. You are an intellegent and a dear man. Love ya, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 15:00:21 (EDT)
From: AJW Email: None To: Marianne Subject: How did we get caught? Message: Hi marianne and everyone, The above thread set a few cogs turning. I think a couple of contributory factors, besides the 'father figure' thing, in my case were: Coming out of some intense acid experiences, and the general pro-mystical, pro-guru, 'spiritual' atmosphere that pervaded part of the hippy culture at the end of the 60s, start of the 70s. It was trendy to have a guru and meditate. And it made so much sense at the time... Perfect Master, Meditation, Peace of Mind, raises your consciousness without drugs, it will rub off , people will see and want to do it for themselves etc. Before you know it there'll be a Divine City, what with Grace, Agya, Realisation, Dedication, 'peace on earth was only going to take a few years'. Shit, we were all going to be realised souls by 1993. The Palace del Sport in Rome was supposed to have been full of Instructors by now, Angus, our old ashram secretary was supposed to be the Minister of Education, every other truck was supposed to have the DUO Logo on the side, all social problems should have been sorted out by the World Welfare Association, and a lion should be getting laid by a lamb somewhere, or something. Ah...what the hell...you can't win 'em all. At least I know what charanamrit tastes like. (Did I really have a bottle of that stuff on the kitchen shelf? Shit. Things were worse than I thought.) Anth the Pick Yourself Up, Dust Yourself Off and Go Back to Bed. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 00:57:37 (EDT)
From: Liz Email: None To: AJW Subject: Charanamrit shit Message: Charanamit on the shelf reminds me of Austin Powers in the new movie I won't mention the name of. When he drinks liquid shit instead of coffee! It even rhymes. Maybe RT could write a poem. Liz Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 05:28:46 (EDT)
From: AJW Email: None To: Liz Subject: Holy Farts Message: Hi Liz, Howya doin? Confession time. We used to put a teaspoon of charanamrit in the lentil soup to purify it. It never stopped me farting though. Anth the Gaseous. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 14:36:38 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Marianne/AJW, et al Subject: Holy Farts/dysfunctional Message: Jeez, this thread has gone from dysfunctional families to war talk, to drinking shit and holy water. I have been so busy, I don't have time to keep up with the forum much. But this thread I had to read, being of course, from a 'dysfunctional family' myself. I have yet to see a functional family. Every family has trips, and no doubt my kid will be on the psychiatrist's couch one day complaining about me & her dad (well, probably just me) It took me a long time to realize that my parents, both from alcoholic parents themselves, did the best with what they could. It still screwed me up, being raised by them, but they did much better than their parents did. And now I can say I love them and I'm glad the horrible years are over. The hard stuff for me is raising my own child and trying not to inflict my own stuff on her. Being raised in a very chaotic home, I can see the need for structure and security in kids' lives, I guess M provided some structure and security of premies from dysfunctional families. I agree with everyone who said that it was the times (the chaotic 60's and 70's) when our generation had the privilege of 'finding ourselves' and the influences of eastern mysticism and acid, and rebelling from our families (even from healthy families, it looks like), that found us running to the arms of the 'Pied Piper' from hell. Anthony, I love your little topical epithets that you sign off with such as 'anth the consumer', etc. What a hoot. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 15:23:36 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: AJW Subject: How did we get caught? Message: We wanted to hide from ourselves and the world. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jun 17, 1999 at 00:49:51 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: mishkat@gateway.net To: Marianne Subject: Dysfunction & DLM Message: Dear Marianne - Thanks for revealing so much about your life - I know it's not easy. I do agree that many of the people who got involved with Maharaji came from dysfunctional families, but so do most people, unfortunately. Anyway, as you know, and as anyone who has read my Journeys entry knows, my family was also very dysfunctional. During the time I was in adolescence, my parents both drank a LOT, particularly my mother (my dad was functional at work but got very drunk at night). At about the age of 14, I began to realize that I could do anything I wanted because my parents were usually too drunk to notice. I could stay out all night, not go to school, do drugs, whatever, and they really didn't care. I did have responsibility for making sure my younger siblings were OK (especially my little brother, who was 8 years younger than me), but after a while I didn't even care about this. This was WAY too much freedom AND responsibility for a 14-15 year old. I got involved with Maharaji when I was 16, with two friends of the same age. Prior to this, we'd been doing all kinds of spiritual seeking - through drugs, the occult, and so forth, and things had been getting kind of strange. Both my friends were basically in the same situation as I was - their parents had either written them off or didn't care what they did as long as the parent didn't have to deal with any repercussions. I think that we were all attracted to DLM because of the structure inherent in being a good premie at that time (1972): no casual sex, no drugs, some kind of order to life. Plus we all had had to take on way too much responsibility at a young age, and now we could have someone (Maharaji) who we thought was ultimately responsible. Also, the older premies were VERY accepting and loving, so we felt like part of a real family - I really appreciated that (and still do. These were good people.) Anyway, I think that getting involved with DLM was actually beneficial to me and my friends at that time. We needed the structure, the community, and the acceptance. The problems came when we began to grow up and lead our own lives. I was fortunate enough to have been free to leave in 1977 when I was 21 - I basically 'grew out' of the premie community, and I was getting support elsewhere in my life (I'd gone back to college, for one thing). My friends weren't so lucky - they'd both married other premies when they were very young (18), and had children, which kept them locked in to the premie community structure. One of my friends went to Florida with her husband and children to work on the DECA project. She finally got enough courage to get a divorce, go back to school, and leave Maharaji in the early eighties. Our other friend is still involved, and talking to her is like stepping into a time warp back to the seventies. I think she's OK, and that maybe she needs to still be involved (she had a terrible childhood) but it's still sad to me. Anyway, that's my story - Love, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jun 17, 1999 at 14:12:30 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: Katie Subject: Dysfunction & DLM Message: Hi Katie! Whenever I read about your life, you sound just like me. Being the baby of the family, I didn't have to worry about anyone else. I could do whatever I wanted, and I did. When my parents would feebly try to reel me in a bit, I'd just tell them what great role models they were and head out to smoke more dope or do more acid. The pattern of our involvement with DLM is very similar and our feelings about our premie friends identical. The older premies (in their mid to late 20's) really took care of me and the ashram allowed me to be taken care of, something I needed in my life. I did become affirmatively disenchanted with GMJ though, as I've said before. I gladly gave the money I made to the ashram when I lived there. I don't have any regrets about it. I was only making $2.00 an hour working at a senior citizen's rest home, being a housekeeper, so it wasn't such a big deal for me. But the house, the cars, and the implied requirement that we attend all the festivals (which made it almost impossible for premies to have stable, meaningful, well paying jobs), pushed me out of the cult. One thing my parents did give me was a strong belief that I was very smart and could achieve whatever I wanted in the world. That invaluable gift allowed me to head off to law school soon after I left. Thanks for being there Katie, and for sharing your life stories with me. I need and appreciate it. Love, Marianne Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jun 17, 1999 at 15:14:00 (EDT)
From: D_Thomas Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Dysfunction & DLM Message: Hi, Marianne. I hope you not still feeling hurt because of me. I did not come from an abusive family, but it was also emotionally cold. We tended to avoid the emotional issues that confronted us. There was a lot of verbal teasing between my brother sister and myself, which seemed to me to be attempts to cut each other down masquerading behind a thin veneer of humor. Being the youngest, I got the worst of it. Our paths have crossed, but I don't think we would recognize each other. You mentioned being in Denver the day that Nixon resigned. I was there too, at the same time, trying to receive Knowledge. D Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jun 17, 1999 at 19:37:59 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: D_Thomas Subject: Dysfunction & DLM Message: D: Thank you for your post. I was very hurt when you made that post but when I read about your own experiences, I was no longer angry. I hope you are doing ok. I challenged you to see if you had been through difficult things in your life, and indeed you had. The story you told about your friend trying to kill himself tore my heart apart. I think that being involved in the cult can make us less caring towards each other, and less tolerant of our individual weaknesses. I always thought it was supposed to make us compassionate. You have compassion. It is the quality I regard most highly. I hope that the information you are getting from the site helps you to see through the thin veneer surrounding M. What do you think about him telling the premies to get off this site? Marianne Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 14, 1999 at 20:52:02 (EDT)
From: JHB Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Compare with this Maharaj Ji Message: I found this on the net. The similarities with our Maharaji our striking as are the differences. I would be interested in premies' comments:- The following is reprinted for Internet publication with permission. 'Enchanted Land: A Journey With the Saints of India' Author: David C. Lane Ph.D. Copyright 1995 Mt. San Antonio College Philosophy Group Maharaj Charan Singh The shabd yoga guru who has the largest following in both India and around the world is Maharaj Charan Singh of Radhasoami Satsang Beas. His following is said to be well over a million, a remarkable number considering that the esteemed saint does not advertise and his disciples do not proselytize. Maharaj Charan Singh has drawn accolades from both followers and outsiders. As Professor Philip H. Ashby of Princeton University notes: 'The present Master, Charan Singh, is the grandson of the Great Master who before becoming Master in 1951 was a lawyer in Sikanderpur in the Punjab. Born in 1916, a man of great physical and personal charm even to non-Satsangis and now at the height of his intellectual and spiritual powers, he is obviously a worthy successor to the Great Master. As I can testify from personal conversations with him and by observation of him in the midst of his devout adherents, the leadership of an Indian religious sect such as the Radha Soami Satsang of Beas does not fall upon men who are charlatans or insincere, as some people in the West might suspect. Penetrating through the fervent adulation and worship of the colony, the objective nonadherent must admit to being in the presence of a highly gifted and spiritually sensitive leader.' I have had the good fortune to meet Maharaj Charan Singh on nine occasions. I will never forget the first time I saw the exalted saint in India in late July of 1978 in the midst of the intense summer monsoons. It was an amazing sight to see nearly half a million people from all over India come to pay their respects on the last Sunday in July. Each year a bhandara (spiritual celebration) is held in honor of the birthday (July 27, 1858) of Huzur Sawan Singh, guru and grandfather of Maharaj Charan Singh and pilgrims from all over India come to have the darshan (sight) of their beloved living master. Since I was staying in a hostel in Amritsar some 30 miles away I had to take a bus to reach the town of Beas. As I got off the bus at Beas in the early morning, I was astounded to find thousands of Indians converging on the Dera (as the colony is affectionately known) by every conceivable mode of transportation. The road from the little town of Beas to Dera Baba Jaimal Singh is about three miles. Along this pathway I saw Punjabis, Rajasthanis, Tibetans, Japanese, Europeans and almost every nationality on earth making their way to see Maharaj Charan Singh. There were mothers with week-old infants, grandfathers well over 90, rich men, beggars, the crippled and the blind-all of them eager to be in the company of this saint. The heat was intense but it did not stop the determined pilgrims from filling the air with devotional hymns, laughter and a growing sense of anticipation for what was to them the greatest occasion on earth. As I approached the Dera gates, I saw in the foreground the large exquisite Satsang Ghar, a beautiful meeting hall in the center of the colony which is visible for miles, its white domes topped with shimmering gold. I made my way to the large field just behind the Satsang Ghar where Maharaj Charan Singh was to speak. I was told later that the crowd numbered well over three lakhs (300,000). As far as my eyes could see, row upon row of men, women and children sat cross-legged waiting for their beloved saint. When Maharaj Ji, as he is warmly called, ascended to the dais, a sigh of relief ran through the crowd. Once on the elevated platform the sage, with his beige turban, long white beard and sparkling eyes, bowed his head to the gaddi (seat) which he was about to assume. I was told earlier that this was in respect for his own guru Sawan Singh and for the audience that had congregated. For about 10 minutes Maharaj Ji sat quietly giving darshan to the multitude which had assembled to see him. It was an astonishing experience to sit with several hundred thousand persons in total silence. After this brief but intensely moving period, Maharaj Charan Singh gave a discourse in Punjabi on the teachings of mystics in the Sant Mat tradition. Maharaj Ji's message was simple but profound. We are in essence drops of love from the sea of God. Because of our association with the mind and body (and our exclusive attachment to them) we have lost sight of our real Self. Thus God in His infinite mercy assumes the form of a Saint in order to lead the soul back to its Original Home. Instead of limiting ourselves to sensual pleasures, which in the end leave us unhappy and discontented, Maharaj Ji stressed the need for surrendering our entire beings to the Ocean of Love of which we are intimately a part. To help us do this Maharaj Ji advised the practice of surat shabd yoga. By attuning ourselves to the Life Current which proceeds from the Heart of Anami Purush in the form of light and sound, we could finally achieve union with our true self, thus finding the joy we seek. After the satsang, Maharaj Ji proceeded to the langar, a vast kitchen where sevadars (volunteer workers) were preparing food for the pilgrims. This meal, which is completely free, is provided daily in the Dera. On this occasion, however, there were over one million chappatis (whole wheat tortillas) served. The task is enormous but the langar runs smoothly under the tireless sevadars and Maharaj Charan Singh's expert guidance. As I walked around the Dera, undoubtedly the cleanest, best- kept town I have seen in India, I could not help thinking of its uniqueness. Who could have imagined 90 years ago that a somewhat obscure sadhu living in the middle of a veritable wasteland would be the seed for one of the world's largest spiritual centers? The lineage of saints at Beas is impressive. Jaimal Singh, the first in line, was one of the chief disciples and successors to Shiv Dayal Singh, the founder of Radhasoami. Upon his death in 1903, he was succeeded by his most devoted disciple, Sawan Singh. It was Sawan Singh, the 'Great Master,' who built the foundation for Dera. Under his reign, the large Satsang Ghar, which is T-shaped with several minarets, was constructed in the 1930's. He attracted a substantial following-men and women from all over the world. Jagat Singh, a distinguished chemistry professor, followed the Great Master in 1948. His leadership lasted only for three years; nevertheless, he is revered as an example of a karma yogi who discharged his duties with love and detachment. Upon his death, Maharaj Charan Singh was appointed as the living Satguru. Jagat Singh had great regard for Maharaj Ji, once calling him Shah-en-Shah, 'King of Kings.' Perhaps of all the masters at Beas, Maharaj Charan Singh has brought about the most social change. He has done away with caste restrictions in the colony, a more difficult thing to do than one might expect in post-Gandhi India. Maharaj Ji also has donated all of the spiritual property in his name (legally given to him by the previous master Jagat Singh), which is worth millions of dollars, to a registered society. He himself, I learned, does not accept gifts, nor does he receive any money whatsoever for his services. Rather, Maharaj Charan Singh lives off his own earnings from a family farm in Sirsa. Unbelievable joy radiates from the faces of Maharaj Ji's followers at the Dera. The driving force in the colony is to be in the presence of their beloved master. This sacred play, as it is called, takes two major forms: 1) Whenever Maharaj Charan Singh is in his car, by some unknown albeit accurate process, hundreds of people line the streets, anxious to get a glimpse of his face and gentle smile; and 2) whenever work needs to be done around the center volunteers eagerly sign up. Why? Because Maharaj Ji usually oversees the project. But in the Dera there is also a deep sense of mutual love. I was pleased to learn that real saints are not measured by the amount of worship or adulation they receive but by the degree of service they themselves provide. In all of India I found this distinction most apparent when I was in the company of Maharaj Charan Singh. As I left the beautiful spiritual colony at Beas, memories of James Hilton's Shangri-La came to mind. I remembered thinking as a child how wonderful it would be if such a place really existed. Leaving the Dera gates, I realized it was not a fantasy or an overly romantic dream; there really can be a paradise on earth, not determined by geographics but by the devoted hearts of men and women. In such a place, where there are genuine saints, where human beings are sincere in their quests, then everything becomes transformed. Then there can be truly an enchanted land. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 14, 1999 at 22:22:39 (EDT)
From: KB Email: None To: JHB Subject: guru theater Message: Thanks for the input John, well, there it is, when you reminisce, you can look at that guru and see what we could have been trapped in for a lifetime. The concept of 'drops of love' and breath, light and sound and union with 'god', sounds nice, and if I had smoked a joint and didnt know better I might buy into the advertising. Too bad no one actually merges one iota with 'god'. The indian fantasy is that SOMEONE actually has attained some samadhi or another. NO ONE has done any such thing. I for one am VERY glad that this is the way life is. NO ONE escapes problems, NO ONE is perfect, NO ONE can attain some state of attitude or being and escape thier own human nature or foibles. In america we go on vacations to theme parks and beaches and whatever. In india they go to spirit fantasy lands. How many people are trapped in this guys ashrams? All the wonders this guy effuses about, the food, the grounds, ect, spiritual slaves had to do the work because GOD in human form is demanding thier obedience. been there done that, now I celebrate my EXness. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 05:56:59 (EDT)
From: Anon Email: None To: JHB Subject: Compare with this Maharaj Ji Message: JHB, if you have not done so already, it sounds like you may find these pages very interesting: In particular you will find there, links to comments about Maharaji from this very Doctor David Lane... ...and a page of direct comparisons with the Radhasoami Tradition: While you're about it you might be interested to order and read the book 'Radhasoami Reality' by Jurgensmeyer (ISBN 0-691-01092-7, Princeton Paperbacks) which I have read and can recommend as being a really well written, enlightening and truly fascinating book. BTW, did I read that you were in Brighton ashram in 1974? I used to go to satsang there at that time; if so, we've probably met. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 06:09:38 (EDT)
From: JHB Email: brauns@dircon.co.uk To: Anon Subject: Compare with this Maharaj Ji Message: Anon, Thanks for these. I had glanced at them when I first found this site, and I'm probably ready to learn a little more. Regarding Brighton, my memory is terrible for parts of my life I've left behind, but if you want to tell me who you are by email, I promise to respect your anonymity here. John. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 09:29:05 (EDT)
From: Anon Email: None To: JHB Subject: Compare with this Maharaj Ji Message: Thinking about it, I'm sure you won't remember me. I was an insignificant and quiet little aspirant at the time. However I will email you anyway. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 11:58:17 (EDT)
From: Stevei Email: None To: JHB Subject: D Lane? Message: I have heard of this David Lane before..this name is very familiar to me..but I dont know exactly where to place him...is he some kind of a psychologist, academic or whatever... Why are these Indians so hung up about God incarnating as a human being...It seems that 'God' only incarnates as a human being in India...maybe cause of the Mangos or the climate...but one ex incarnation has taken up residence in Malibu... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 12:22:21 (EDT)
From: JHB Email: None To: Stevei Subject: D Lane? Message: | Stevei asked:- I have heard of this David Lane before..this name is very familiar to me..but I dont know exactly where to place him...is he some kind of a psychologist, academic or whatever... Read Anon's note above for other references. John Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 13:12:59 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Stevei Subject: This is NO Indian concept! Message: Why don't you read this? Here is some comment I've just received from 'Sitaram'.... A brief comment that I believe is somewhat central. You wrote: I've always believed m was the Lord, as it's been his message for years. I know understand that was merely a belief that maybe makes some sense in the Indian culture... Actually, it makes little sense in Indian culture, which is polytheistic and therefore inclusive, respects multiplicity and variety, and is certainly non-apostlistic. Your belief makes a great deal of sense in Western Christian culture, and in fact what M's movement is all about is attaching an Indian vocabulary to a monotheistic messianic structure. So to add to the concept of exclusivity of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic traditions manifested in expressions such as: 'the one true God', 'the one true path,' my God is better than your God,' 'The chosen people,' etc., now we also have shades of Christ and Muhammad in satgurus who become 'a synthesis of all faiths,' and the 'highest manifestation of the Divine in human history!' The quote, 'guru is greater than God' when taken totally OUT of the context of the Sanatan Dharma, and stealthily put into the context of montheism, is not only meaningless but serves to support a linear hierarchical thinking which is foreign to Indian culture. One of the great deceptions of M's movement is that it is indeed traditional Indian, which it is not! Best wishes, *** Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 08:46:38 (EDT)
From: Stevei Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: This is NO Indian concept! Message: In some sense you are right but in another you are not. Although you say that Indian belief system-religion is polytheistic ...this is not entriely right...If you study the Upanishads, and the old vedas...as well as the Gita..you will find a clear reference to one Supreme being who is beyond ...One and indivisible.... The concept of the gods with little g.....I believe they are acken to Angles and ArcAngles in Christainity...Arcangles have powers given to them by the Divine Godhead...powers over the elements etc...and it is this confusion of modren hindu belief system that gives it the polytheistic tone...The original Vedic Hindu religion believed in the One supreme God .... The concept of an incarnation of 'god' does not exist in Islam or Judiasim...Christianity...maybe..'Son of God'...but it is very clearly embeded in Hindu belief system...cf Krishna, Rama etc It is very acceptable for Indian followers of Gurus to see their teacher as a divine 'incarnation'...one woners how many divine 'incarnations' are roaming around india in this instance of time...my guess is that every village has a local claiment to the throne... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 09:44:18 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Stevei Subject: This is NO Indian concept! Message: Yes, exactly. And this is no problem in India to have several gurus. Each one of them being another 'incarnation' (some higher, some lower, with different purpose) to help you in their 'sadhana'. With what m's claiming, he's definitely no 'Indian guru'. He's one more wierd deluded cult leader, in the true sense of the word. One can say he's a victim of circumstances, and I don't agree with this. He's been very much aware of whats going on around him, and choose to exploit the phenomenon (his followers' servility) as much as he could. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 19:23:21 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: Stevei Subject: This is NO Indian concept! Message: Stevei, the theology of Incarnation is very important in Christianity, especially from the second century on. All the Apostolic Fathers write about Christ as THE Incarnation, and the argument at the Council of Nicea in 325 was all about whether Jesus had two natures, divine and human, or only divine. There is no argument about incarnational christology in Christianity. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jun 17, 1999 at 14:16:12 (EDT)
From: Stevei Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Council of Nicea Message: Is that not the time when apparently the church was divided into two...the Unitarians and the Trinitarians...The Unitarians believed that Jesus was just a prophet and that God was One and indivisible...mainly supported by the Bishop of Alexandria...and the Trinitarians..believed in the Trinity...The Unitarians lost..and their gospels were destroyed or burnt..aparently there were quite a few gospels around...the four gospels were decided upon after Nicea...and all the others which taught the teacings of the Unitarians were destroyed...Aparently the Gospel of Barnabas was one that survived....Thats all I know about Nicea.... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jun 17, 1999 at 15:14:14 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: Stevei Subject: Council of Nicea Message: Many apocryphal gospels surivived; maybe some were burned by heretic hunters, but that was not the purpose of Nicea. Nicea was called by the Emperor Constantine to settle the debate on the theology of Arius and the relationship of the Father to the Son. Most of the arguments of the Ecumenical Councils were on the nature of the Trinity, but the Trinity was a doctrine accepted by the majority pretty early in the scheme of things. You may be thinking of the dispute between Nestorius and Cyril of Alexandria, which was a debate between the Alexandrian and Antiochian schools of Chrisitanity and took place in the fifth century, not the fourth. The three synoptic and one Johanine gospels were accepted and used by the majority from the third century on; you will have to cite your sources for this gospel destroying. Remember, Trinitarians do believe that God is one; they don't think that there are 'three gods.' 'Unitarian' is an eighteenth century term (talk to Helen). Early Christian history is one of my passions, so I apologise if I am coming on too strong; it's just that so many get this era mixed up or really know nothing about it, and premies used to expound upon the most bizarre reading of Late Antiquity. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 11:04:05 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: JHB Subject: Boy, this Message: 'Radical-Salami' line sure produces a bunch of perfect masters, doesn't it? Very prolific, if I do say so myself. Funny thing is, each one of them says they are the ONLY one. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 14, 1999 at 15:23:23 (EDT)
From: Sandra Email: None To: JHB Subject: Leader-Hosin' to JHB Message: Hi again JHB, I'll try again. You didn't like my answer the first time and may not again but what the hell! Of course it's easy to see Maharaji as the 'leader' for all the reasons you point out. He uses leader and figurehead together, in this context, as things some people saw him as that he never wanted to be. Agreed so far? He clearly sees 'leader' as a political, perhaps almost a military term. As in leading the troops into battle. He doesn't want to be seen that way and doesn't feel that that's his role. Does that make any sense to you? It really is just a semantic debate. Is he the focal point, the teacher, the master, the guide and inspiration for many thousands of people? Most definitely. And any of those words could be distasteful to different people for any number of reasons, so if your hypothesis is that he doesn't want to be called a 'leader' because he's chicken of the word, then it just doesn't wash. For a more personal answer to your question, in all the ways I've thought about or addressed Maharaji, both to myself or to him in person, 'my leader' has never once crossed my synapses, not in the '70s, '80s or '90s. 'So great to see you, my leader,' feels ridiculous even to type. It just doesn't fit him at all. So rather than it being a case of him trying to shirk some resposibility from his past or deny history in some way, it's an image, concept and word that make him itchy. I remember very specifically, when Bob Mishler wanted him to try on the mantle of 'world humanitarian leader,' he hated it. That, by the way, precipitated their parting of the ways for you history buffs. Maharaji rejected the persona and title that Mishler thought would be most apt for him. Maybe that'll give you a different angle on why the word 'leader' is anathema to him. Maybe it won't. Maybe nothing short of someone going, 'Okay, okay!!! He's a leader!!!' will do. That's my last shot at it. It's semantics, John. best to you, Sandra ...and now, I'm off to see the wizard... P.S. Check out Eddie Izzard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 14, 1999 at 16:16:55 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Sandra Subject: Nonsense Message: Like all revisonists, Sandra, you -- and I guess the Hamster as wel l - must resort to all the quibbling you can think of. This 'leader' question's just the latest example. Ask yourself this: do you think any reasonable, well-informed outsider, cognizant of Maharaji's history, would ever agree with you (or him) that he is not and never has been a 'leader'? The answer's pretty obvious to me: not on your life. I thought about this question a bit over the weekend. In a way, this one side-step by Maharaji is the most damning proof there is that he simply can't be trusted. He's as dishonest as they come. And you? You're just ... well, how else to say ti but 'following his lead'. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 14, 1999 at 19:25:47 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Jim Subject: and Jim... Message: The most damning proof that this is some wierd cult is the fact that we have people who lived through the seventies with Maharaji (like we did) and yet who spin some incredible whitewash over the whole thing. It's a kind of denial that beggars belief! They have to play around with words and phrases in order to get the spin just right. Fuck me, we know Maharaji proclaimed himself to be the Almighty come to earth to stop the child crawling into the fire. It's bloody ridiculous for any seventies premie to pretend otherwise. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 14, 1999 at 16:27:16 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Sandra Subject: Huh? Message: Sandra: Right! He's not, never was and never wanted to be a leader! He just demanded absolute surrender, absolute devotion, absolute adoration and absolute worship. Ok, he wasn't a leader, he was a jack-booted nazi. There, is that better? Bob Mischler 'wanted' him to be a 'humanitarian leader?' How about just a humanitarian! That would have sufficed. M couldn't even and still hasn't made that grade. The reason? He wants it ALL for himself. Simple question, simple (and most likely) answer. What Bob wanted him to STOP doing was presenting himself as god; THAT is a much more likely cause for the split because Bob knew he wasn't god. Bob, obviously, had some ethics and didn't feel comfortable with all this LOTU junk. His alternative, become a humanitarian 'leader.' Your definition of 'leader' is much too narrow. A leader in a race is the one that sets the pace...... Wouldn't it have been nice if M set the humanitarian pace and fed all the people like his schlocky movies said he would? Yeah, we should have known he wasn't going to do THAT, because what follows in those stupid flicks is just a bunch of idiotic toe-kissing; nothing more. Yes, he has led you, Sandra...... on a trail to nowhere. When you have to backtrack like we have, you will see it for yourself. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 14, 1999 at 16:48:59 (EDT)
From: Powerman Email: None To: Sandra Subject: Sandra Message: You're a fucking idiot. Beat it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 14, 1999 at 19:15:55 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com To: Sandra Subject: Pull the other one Message: It's got bells on. Come on now Sandra. We know Maharaji didn't want to be a humanitarian leader because he wanted to be seen as God in human form. I know my history dear girl. I was there. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 14, 1999 at 19:39:02 (EDT)
From: A Premie Email: dust@lotus.feet.com To: Sir Dave Subject: Pull the other one Message: God you ex-premies make me sick. Not content to turn your back on the one true master, you then say he is a leader when he quite simply, says he isn't. I've FOLLOWED Maharaji for all these years and I can quite catagorically say that he is NOT a leader. And how are you guys going to feel when Maharaji is reckognised as the one true master by Bill Clinton? I should think you'll feel pretty small. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 14, 1999 at 19:44:49 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: A Premie Subject: Pull the other one Message: Well AP, 'how are you guys going to feel when Maharaji is reckognised as the one true master by Bill Clinton? ' THAT would be the kiss of death for M's movement..... don't you agree???? snicker...snicker... :-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 14, 1999 at 22:24:34 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: A premie Subject: M the true master Message: Like I said before, more like A ExPremie, rather than A Premie. And pardon my syntax. Your posts are always good for yuks. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 14, 1999 at 19:49:20 (EDT)
From: Mary Email: None To: A Premie Subject: Pull the other one Message: Hey there premie, ;-) Make sure his presidential emissary doesn't forget to pack her cherished LOTU knee pads. Contrary Mary who believes in recycling! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 10:48:05 (EDT)
From: nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Mary Subject: into some Monica-swapping? -nt Message: fytdf Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 14, 1999 at 20:05:42 (EDT)
From: JHB Email: None To: Sandra Subject: Leader-Hosin' to JHB Message: Sandra said:- 'Of course it's easy to see Maharaji as the 'leader' for all the reasons you point out.' Sandra it's not only easy - there is NO OTHER RATIONAL INTERPRETATION!!!!!. Go through my reasons one by one and tell me how a leader is something different. Now, I'll give you half a way out. It is possible to say that AS WELL AS Maharaji being a leader, he is also a spiritual master. But it is absolutely impossible, IMO, to deny he is a leader if you are honest with yourself. Let me ask you a different question. If I were to ask you if Maharaji was the leader of Elan Vital BEFORE he made his claim, how would you have answered? What I am implying here of course is that you are modifying your own understanding of the meaning of words according to what Maharaji says. With honesty, can you tell me that's not true? John Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 03:15:18 (EDT)
From: Sandra Email: None To: JHB Subject: Leader-Hosin' to JHB Message: Dear John, Before I give up on having any dialogue with anybody here, show me in some, small way that you actually read what I wrote. As I acknowleged your point of view freely, is it possible for you to tell me what I said to you? Consider it an intellectual exercise...I just need to see if someone can read anything without filtering it through the 'it must be premie revisionism, group speak, covering up' blah, blah blah. I need to see if this is possible before I spend any more time here. If you have the need to blow up anything Maharaji's ever said or done and make it into a crime against humanity and ignore any good times you had with him, that is itself, quite the definition of revisionism, is it not? What the hell were you there for, anyway? If you have the need to make all premies into idiots and buffoons, just to make yourself feel better, how real or noble is that? If you've read my postings, however much you may disagree with them, you'll see they're at least mostly free of some kind of parallel atttitude, 'they're all lost exes, swimming in Maya, ignoring the soul, blinded by hate' etc. I actually enjoy conversing with very different sorts of people and always have. I refuse however, to waste any time talking to anyone who's just looking to box me up and package me. I won't do it in real life, I won't do it on the web. So show me that you can hear anything I've said without filters. Anyone? Sandra Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 04:54:54 (EDT)
From: JHB Email: None To: Sandra Subject: I did read your mail Message: Sandra, I did read your mail and tried to keep my answer focussed. But to prove I did read it I'll respond to more of the points you made. You said:- 'He clearly sees 'leader' as a political, perhaps almost a military term. As in leading the troops into battle. He doesn't want to be seen that way and doesn't feel that that's his role. Does that make any sense to you? It really is just a semantic debate.' Firstly, how do you know all this? Did he sit down with you and explain his reasoning for using those words on his web-site? You keep saying it's semantics, but I'm trying to say words do have a widely accepted meaning. Do you honestly think an outsider, reading my original post on the subject, would accept your interpretation? No, of course not, they would say he's the leader of Elan Vital. ' .....your hypothesis is that he doesn't want to be called a 'leader' because he's chicken of the word, then it just doesn't wash.' When did I say, or even imply, that 'he's chicken of the word'?? I never said that, I don't think that, and I'm very curious as to why you would think I did. For the record, it's a mystery to me why he is denying being the leader. What's wrong with being a leader anyway?? 'For a more personal answer to your question, in all the ways I've thought about or addressed Maharaji, both to myself or to him in person, 'my leader' has never once crossed my synapses, not in the '70s, '80s or '90s. 'So great to see you, my leader,' feels ridiculous even to type.' Now your playing semantics. Of course he was your Lord, your Master. I felt that as well, but I also tried to follow him. I wanted and felt I needed to be led. By any objective criteria, he was my leader. Didn't you try to follow his directions? Isn't that what a leader is, someone whose directions you follow? The Bob Mischler stuff was well answered by someone else above. 'That's my last shot at it. It's semantics, John.' You invited me to prove I'd read your mail, and I've tried to do so, so you can't finish now. Anyway, this is one small point where Maharaji is practicing revisionism. There are many many issues like this that we could argue on. Your claim that M was too young when he claimed to be God has been blown apart by the quote from 1990 from Jean-Michel below. I notice you haven't commented on that. Sandra, I'm not trying to lump all premies together. I am just responding to things you, as an individual, are writing. If you are happy with Maharaji I don't understand what you're doing here. John. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 11:44:57 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: JHB Subject: On m denying being a leader: Message: There is no mystery behind this, and the issue has been addressed in numerous EV meetings I've been a part of: m receives 'gifts' from people participating in EV's activities. EV's purpose (read EV's status) is to promote m's 'teaching'. EV is supposed to be some kind of independant structure, managed by people 'appreciating' the 'teaching', and wanting to help propagating the 'message'. IF Mr Rawat was the 'leader' of EV, he couldn't receive 'gifts' from premies: he'd have to pay TAXES. Do you understand why EV is taking so much care to hide Mr Rawat's role in his organizations? Of course this is all BS ...... and who's really believing m's 'invited' to 'his' events? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 11:21:55 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Sandra Subject: The hallmark of evasion Message: I refuse however, to waste any time talking to anyone who's just looking to box me up and package me. This really should be added to the Maharajia Apologia. It's classic. When an old premie friend recently specifically offered to 'debate' about Maharaji with me I said yes. Almost right off the bat she was unable to maintain any sort of tenable position. An honest person in her shoes would have conceded something. But, alas, she's a premie, so what she did -- surprise, surprise -- was what you're doing. She simply said she refused to be 'boxed up', 'categorized' what have you. Same thing Shp did, by the way. It's a coward's refuge. And to top it off, you're actually trying this 'nobody heard me' routine. You're a piece of work, Sandra. Despicable in the result, no? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 14, 1999 at 23:50:11 (EDT)
From: Memphis Belle Email: None To: Sandra Subject: Off to see the Wizard... Message: the wonderful Wizard of Oz! Hope you remember to check behind the curtains. P.S. How do YOU know so much about how Maharji feels and thinks? Are you his wife or something? Or are you just a premie assuming the 'right' feelings that he should feel? How do you KNOW if he wants to be a leader or not? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 14:22:41 (EDT)
From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Sandra Subject: Let's sidestep the semantics Message: Hi Sandra, If I may make what I think is a more interesting diversion to this question of Who is Guru Maharaji? (and never let us forget that 'guru' = 'gu' + 'ru' = 'person who leads us from darkness into light' - and that's a quote - but no matter...) I agree that semantics can lead to misunderstandings, sure - and being a leader isn't such a disreputable occupation, if it were not for the fact that M is denying ever having sought that status, and you seem to be aiding and abetting him up in this. But Sandra, wouldn't you agree that a more crucial question centres on what attributes Maharaji actually possesses or embodies, regardless of what descriptive label is applied? I certainly do, and I would really appreciate knowing how you feel - if you are prepared to respond to the following request (believe me, it would be a first for a premie on this forum to come clean on this question): Which of the following descriptions of Maharaji most closely matches your own understanding of who he is? (a) The living incarnation of God, blessed with the gifts of omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence, and who would have been so regardless of which family he had been born into. We are talking 'full powers' here... Could work miracles. Has worked miracles - and not just in a metaphorical sense. (b) An ordinary child who acquired directly via the blessing or Grace of his father, Shri Hans, a unique status of Perfect Master which made him, and he alone, the sole possessor of the power to pass on Knowledge to others (meaning that special something which is beyond the mere techniques). (c) An ordinary child who received the gift of Knowledge at a very early age, alongside the rest of family, but who alone succeeded in realising Knowledge, and in so doing became the the sole possessor of the power to pass on Knowledge to others (meaning that special something...etc) No need for any 'transmission' of divine status from Shri Hans. (d) An ordinary child who received Knowledge at an early age, and through years of practise achieved a more profound understanding than other premies, along with a facility for expressing that understanding to his followers. No powers as such; just a premie who is a bit further down the same path as all the others and is thus able to help the rest by sharing the deeper wisdom he has acquired. You don't need Maharaji to receive Knowledge, but he is the most accomplished guide you are likely to find. (e) An ordinary child conditioned into believing he was the Living Perfect Master whilst young. No special understanding. No powers. Effective communicator and leader (oops, not leader - I mean figurehead) of spiritual movement that some would classify as a cult. Could have been anyone, regardless of which family provided they had been given the appropriate conditioning. (f) Other. Please specify... And if you think the request is unfair, please explain why. This is a sincere question, and it is certainly a question no premie would have hesitated in responding to during my own premie years. Twenty years ago, I would have answered (a) - provided the questioner seemed to be sincerely searching. Today I would answer (e) without hesitation. Your turn... Thanks, Nigel Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 14:46:18 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Alright, Anon and Nigel! Message: Great posts, guys. Nothing to add except I'm glad to see someone's able to control themselves long enough to talk with this bitch without giving her an excuse to blow them off. Best of luck. I'm going surfing with Powerman and Gerry. Oh and JF of course. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 15:49:04 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: Nigel Subject: No semantics - truth Message: Nigel: Once again, an incredibly insightful post. I would've voted for A in the beginning and E now, too. You've pushed away all the cobwebs surrounding this issue and have given us an excellent context and frame of reference for this discussion. Very well put. Marianne Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 20:36:12 (EDT)
From: William Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Let's sidestep the semantics Message: Nigel, Couldn't he just be someone who had a profound experience and a drive to tell the world about it? William Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 23:21:38 (EDT)
From: Rob Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Good question Message: I'd go with (c), but with a chunk of (d) thrown in. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 07:15:30 (EDT)
From: nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Rob Subject: Replies 2U4... Message: Thanks for comments, all. (How about you Sandra?) Jim, Marianne: Ta for kind words. I should warn you, however, I really can't take compliments (but keep 'em coming, anyway, if you feel so inclined...) William: (are you a friend of Catweasel?) You wrote: Nigel, Couldn't he just be someone who had a profound experience and a drive to tell the world about it? William (Which counts as an (f), BTW.) Yeah, I suppose at a pinch he just could be. But your explanation takes no account of M's early background nor fits with his own presentation of himself or his message. When I was a teenager, I discovered that drinking four pints of Guinness and following them up with a couple of joints was pretty amazing experience (yeah, I know - pretty sheltered upbringing...) I shared my enthusiasm with others - some of whom came to appreciate the discovery of said amazing experience. Yet, funnily enough, never once did it cross my mind to encourage my pals to address me as 'Master', serve me humbly, express their slobbery affection for my stockinged feet and learn from my thoughts on life, the universe and everything. Rob: Thanks for the seemingly honest reply. Am I right in thinking that (c) is what you actually believe, and (d) is the way you would present Maharaji to new aspirants? Your response - whether by coincidence or otherwise - matches exactly the Knowledge-Lite portrayal of Maharaji on the 'Enjoying Life with Knowledge' website. This was demonstrated experimentally in an investigative exercise by ex-premies we called Operation Trojan Horse. (See 'Baring Their Standards: Enjoyinglife Exposed' from the ex-premie.org main site index.) We found that fictitious premie contributors who were too gushing and tried to portray Maharaji as a grade (a) incarnation of God, eg. Willi Kranz or a (b)-grade Living Perfect Master, eg. Dave Goldberg; Andy O'Dwyer, had their life stories 'corrected' by the site's editors. So too did anyone representing Maharaji as a bit too (e)-grade ornery, as was the case with Carl Beringer. So it sounds like your moderate take on Maharaji's current status would at least be officially approved. But how do you feel about Maharaji having portrayed himself for years as definition (a) without ever having since corrected, or apologised for any painful misunderstandings that may have arisen? Or the fact that thousands would probably never have dedicated their lives or made excessive financial donations to a grade (d) effective teacher? Or how about this: if Maharaji is just an ordinary chap who through sheer diligence and selfless one-pointedness came to a realisation of Knowledge, then it must be theoretically possible for any other ordinary chap, or indeed, chap-ess to do likewise. Wouldn't the simple law of probablities suggest that in a world of however many billion people there must be thousands of other fully-realised souls out there? Why don't they team up - or at least compare notes? Doesn't Maharaji even have a few in his own movement? Charnanand has had Knowledge for longer than M. Surely he must be getting somewhere by now... Why do these Masters always have to run a one-man show, and never acknowledge the existence of other Masters? (except, of course, for those long dead...) I still reckon (e) is the most plausible explanation. It is certainly a sufficient explanation for everything that ever happened in my own life or within the DLM/EV movement as I see it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 11:26:36 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: nigel Subject: Roger?? Keeper?? Message: Roger, I can't help but think that Nigel's multiple choice test deserves some permanence over on the site too shameful to mention. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 17:06:47 (EDT)
From: Guru Roger Drek Email: None To: Jim Subject: ***Best*** Message: ***Best*** at Roger's House of Maharaji Drek Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jun 17, 1999 at 00:21:40 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: mishkat@gateway.net To: Guru Roger Drek Subject: Thanks, Rog! Message: For putting Nigel's post on H.O.D. I was gonna suggest it, but I already made one suggestion this week. Maybe even new survey material, who knows? (Nigel rules!) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 17:25:10 (EDT)
From: William Email: None To: nigel Subject: Replies 2U4... Message: Well I did mean but guess I didn't say that M receiving K from his father was part of what I meant. As far as his Title Master, God, Satguru, President of EV, doesn't really mean to much for me, call him what you want but his message about K is what draws me. How he lives his life isn't my concern unless they dig up 50 corpses from under his house. Who am I to tell him how to live when I've got my hands full with my own. What do you think about Russias Mad Monk, Rasputin? Or how Marpa treated Milarepa? How he made him build those towers and tear them down and put them up again over there. Then start it over again. Then beat Milas ass for whatever reason and more than once. Not to mention Marpas drinking problem. What about Abraham taking his son out to kill him! I'm can you imagine the expression on his sons face when he's drawn his knife and coming at him? Well son...God told me to. Can you picture that today? The man heard a voice in his head from GOD telling him to kill his son. You know where he's end up. William Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jun 17, 1999 at 09:41:31 (EDT)
From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: William Subject: To put it blunty, William... Message: You seem to be missing the point. You wrote: Well I did mean but guess I didn't say that M receiving K from his father was part of what I meant. As far as his Title Master, God, Satguru, President of EV, doesn't really mean to much for me, call him what you want but his message about K is what draws me. 'It doesn't matter what you call him' is exactly the point I am making. The question is: 'What, if anything, makes him special?' My answer: 'Nothing, apart from the divine status that others have allowed him to imagine he possesses.' His powers are merely those that his followers grant him over their lives. The whole movement and guru/devotee relationship is a purely social psychological phenomenon requiring no magical or 'spiritual' explanations. Doesn't it matter to you that Maharaji might be (is, in my opinion) completely irrelevant to the receipt of Knowledge, or any experiences you might have thereafter? As to your other comments: What do you think about Russias Mad Monk, Rasputin? He was a mad monk. What about Abraham taking his son out to kill him! I'm can you imagine the expression on his sons face when he's drawn his knife and coming at him? Well son...God told me to. Can you picture that today? The man heard a voice in his head from GOD telling him to kill his son. You know where he's end up. William And he was probably another, IMO. I am an atheist, so none of this is really my problem. And either way, none of it seems relevant to Maharaji, that I can see. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 19:53:09 (EDT)
From: William Email: None To: Sandra Subject: Leader-Hosin' to JHB Message: Hi Sandra, Looks like you're pro M. I was wondering if there was anyone here who wasn't bashing M besides myself. I'm wondering what all the hoopla's about? I mean what has M done that's so bad? Seems alot of people THINK he's this way or that but does anyone KNOW if he's this way or that? The 'I've heard this' and 'I read that' doesn't count. What does ANYONE KNOW for a fact? What do you KNOW? William Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 20:18:11 (EDT)
From: JHB Email: None To: William Subject: Leader-Hosin' to JHB Message: William, You want to know what M has done that's so bad????? Have you read this forum? Do you understand what effect claiming to be God has on impressionable 20 year olds? Do you understand what effect telling people that if they ever leave the ashram they will go to hell has on devoted followers? Do you understand the effect on those followers when those ashrams are closed? Are you human????? John. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 20:44:15 (EDT)
From: William Email: None To: JHB Subject: Leader-Hosin' to JHB Message: I never KNEW he said that. Did you hear him say that? Not trying to piss anyone off but I'd like to know what's happening here. William Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 20:52:49 (EDT)
From: gerry Email: None To: William Subject: Leader-Hosin' to JHB Message: Not trying to piss ya off, William, but are you brain damaged, by any chance? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 20:58:07 (EDT)
From: William Email: None To: gerry Subject: Leader-Hosin' to JHB Message: No prob. But did you hear him say that? William Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 21:06:59 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: William Subject: Leader-Hosin' to JHB Message: Did I hear him say he was god? No I didn't. I think I heard him speak Three or four times. He was boring and practically incomprehensible. I have read several quotes attributed to him where he states very clearly he is the Perfect Master, tantamount to god-in-person. What more evidence do you need? If a person says something and it is recorded on tape or transcibed onto paper is that good enough evidence? There are several quotes about him being god or greater than god. Didn't you ever read them, William? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 21:16:36 (EDT)
From: William Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Leader-Hosin' to JHB Message: No, I want to know if you heard him tell people they would go to hell if they left the ashrams. William Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 21:25:44 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: William Subject: Leader-Hosin' to JHB Message: No, William, I didn't hear him tell people they would go to hell if they left the ashram. I'd split by then. I believe he gave that ''satsang'' is Kissimee. I think others here were actually there to hear it from his mouth. What is your understanding of M and who he said he was, or is? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 21:44:26 (EDT)
From: William Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Leader-Hosin' to JHB Message: I understand M to be someone who has something to show people. Something good. William Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 22:20:49 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: William Subject: I was there Message: William, I was there at the ashram-only satsang one afternoon in Kissimmee, Florida (79 or 80 -- can't recall which) when Maharaji told us in no uncertain terms that we might as well throw ourselves down the toilet if we left the ashram, that there was no life for us 'out there', etc. You want it verbatim? Ask him. But I was there. But, really, what's so surprising about that? Are you familiar with any of the other things he said in the seventies? He started the decade with shit like this: According to the belief, he had enough power that after he was crucified, he came back. So, you think twice about this and you figure, if somebody has got a power -- and it was incredible as to be able to to be crucified and them come back again -- you can definitely figure out that he must ahve the power to sort of take the whole Earth and jiggle it once in a plastic bag. Give it a little twist, all us teensy-weensy things go falling into this palstic bag. He opens it up and says, 'Listen, you thing in there. Realize the purpose of your life, aim of your life. This is it. Period.' ***** 2)Q - To whom should we give our devotion? A - Guru. Q - Shouldn't we give our devotion to God? A - What is God? Q - Well, Guru is a personification of God in this Earth, right? A - I told you yesterday: Who is Guru? The highest manifestation of God is Guru. So when Guru is here, God is here, to whom will you give your devotion? **** When God has come here, then what is the need to give devotion to God there? ***** 3) The Lord Himself reincarnates, reincarnates, reincarnates Himself for the very purpose of saving us. And we do not even realize who gave us the authority to refuse Him! Who are we anyway? From which field do we come that we can reject, that we can refuse, that we can deny our Lord? This is something that I cannot answer. And we do it every time!. Because we have got a stupid ego. ..... We just don't know that we are His puppets. ***[a lot of stuff about how he could suck all the atmosphere away, etc.] 4) So when Lord comes to us, accept Him. And Lord is here. He has always been here. How can we make a statment, 'The Lord is gone', and then turn aroudn and say, 'Lord is omnipresent'? We are contradicting ourselves. He has always been here. He has always been saving us, but it's us who pull out of His shelter. ******* 5) What is it? Something for people to understand: that there is a personality like God. Adn without him we are just pieces of junk, nothing else. And it's like, somebody has to really look up to it, you know. It's like, God is THERE, all the time. But for a person to see Him and underwstand Him, anyway he ahs to look UP to Him. But it's like, God is giving us all these indications of His presence. You know? If he does... Look. The thing is, if somebody goes and does soemthing good, he will go and goof around all Arizona probably, saying ' I have done something good.' But if he does something bad, and he blows it [ed. like predicting the dawning of the millenium], you know, it means he just really blew it. Then he is going to blame it on somebody else; not on himself. So if God does something good for people, people will never understand it. People don't! ***** 6) 'Why do we have this human body? To know this, we will have to take the shelter of Guru Maharja Ji. Guru Maharj Ji knows all. Guru Maharaji is Brahma (creator). Guru Maharaji is Vishnu (Operator). Guru Maharjai is Shiva (Destoryer of illusion and ego). And above all, Guru Mahraji is the Supremest Lord in person before us.' ****** 7) Who is Guru? The highest manifestation of God is Guru. So when Guru is here, God is here, to whom will you give your devotion? ****** 8)Guru Maharj Ji knows all. Guru Maharaji is Brahma (creator). Guru Maharaji is Vishnu (Operator). Guru Maharjai is Shiva (Destoryer of illusion and ego). And above all, Guru Mahraji is the Supremest Lord in person before us. ******* 9) I have come so powerful. I have come for the world. Whenever the great come,the worldly oppose them. Again I have come and you are not listening. Every ear should hear that the saviour of humanity has come. There should be no chance for anyone to say that they haven't heard of Guru Maharaj Ji. Those who have come to me are already saved. Now its your duty to save others. Shout it on the streets. Why be shy? ****** 10) When human beings forget the religion of humanity, the Supreme Lord incarnates. He takes a body and comes on this earth ...... When human beings forget this one way, then our Lord, who is the Lord of the whole universe, comes in human body to give us practical Knowlege, .... But, most ironically, we don't appreciate the Lord when He comes in His human body on this earth. Similarly, a Satguru, a Perfect Master, a Supreme Lord who is existing in the present time, can give you the practical Knowledge of the real thing... So God Himself comes to give practical Knowledge of His divinity, of His inner self, which is self-effulgent light, eternal light, all-pervading light. **** And the Supreme Master, the Satguru, gives practical Knowledge of that light, irrespective of caste, creed, color, religion or sex, to those human individuals who bow before him with reverence, with love and with faith. and he ended it with threats like this: So that mind, that factor that's always against us, can get us; it has the potential of getting us. What I'm trying to say, is that I'm not trying to kid you when I say that the mind can zap you, the mind can get you. It can get you. And we have to be aware of that, and do something, and the only thing we can do to avoid that, is to surrender to Guru Maharaj Ji. So it's only our effort, premies, that's really going to do it. .....' **** 'Because without Guru Maharaj Ji, everything just deteriorates in our lives. And it's like, maybe to some people that's like, 'Well, nothing has deteriorated in my life yet.' And yet we have to understand that for those people it is deteriorating, and that we have to come to that one conclusion in our own hearts.' Somewhere around here I thought someone had posted excerpts from the seventies secret initiator manual, the one where Maharaji threatens them with destruction should they ever 'fall' from the supposedly exalted heights he's lifted them to. Can't find it. But you get the picture. You want more quotes, we gottem. You want threats, anti-mind fear-mongering, 'I'm God (you're not)'. You want 'em, we gottem. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 23:37:59 (EDT)
From: William Email: None To: Jim Subject: I was there Message: I can understand the 'there's no life outside the ashram' if you leave. But that's not the same as saying you're gonna rot in hell if you leave. Where did that come from? Let me make something clear. Hell I have no hard feelings to anyone who has knowledge, practicing or not. And i'm sure people have been hurt and that's not good. BUT over the years I've come to distrust just about everything anyone says about anything UNLESS that person was there and saw for him/herself. I can thank the media for that. Iknow what I read in the newspapers is only HALF the truth if that much then biased at that. I know how one thing of a certain size can grow in size and spread like a wildfire and get completly out of control before anything can be done. Group hysteria! Sure, anyone can find something wrong with M if they want to. I know people who were 'in the groove' with M and I've never heard anything like what I'm hearing here. There are alot of ways things can be taken and misinterpreted depending on where that person's at. William Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 00:50:21 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: William Subject: Can you read? Message: I said I was there, stupid. I was there. Get it? That's what he said. Now, if I can prove this, what are you going to say? That Maharaji's fucked for saying that? No, of course not. So what do you care what he said anyway? Like, what's it really matter? Nothing matters. Didn't you read ELK today. We're going with simplicity this month, William. Keep it simple, stupid. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 03:03:38 (EDT)
From: JB-to William Email: None To: William Subject: Can you read? Message: Hi William, I was at the afore-mentioned ashram meeting and Maharaji DID NOT say anyone was going to hell. I've never heard him say anything of the sort and, in fact, he makes fun of fire and brimstone types regularly. He did get 'heavy' there, questioned people's commitment and reasons for being there and shook quite a few people up, since many of us who were in the ashram were just coasting along and not necessarily taking advantage of the 'concentrated environment' which was degenerating into all sorts of trips. Not that long after, he disbanded the ashrams as they clearly were no longer serving any real purpose. He was very strong there as I remember, I was sitting not that far away. But he DID NOT threaten anyone with hell, this is a fabrication. In case you haven't figured it out, this fellow Jim is on a campaign, a particularly obsessive and misguided one and he told you to fuck off on your first day. I'd consider that an honor as now you don't have to go through wasting your time with his relentless eruptions and bullshit. You can save going through the whole cycle of him trying to take bites out of you and lose precious moments of your own life to satisfy his mental bloodlust. He screams and curses at anyone who dares have a different point of view than he does and plays relentlessly to his little amen corner. This must be the greatest fame he's ever achieved and boy, he loves the taste of it. It's a sad display of wasted brainpower and energy. There is no real information here. It is basically a wasteland of disinformation and frustration and really only useful, as stated above, if you fancy watching a trainwreck or getting in one yourself. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 10:18:08 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: mishkat@gateway.net To: JB-to William Subject: to JB and William re this site Message: Dear JB and William - JB wrote, regarding this site: There is no real information here. It is basically a wasteland of disinformation and frustration and really only useful, as stated above, if you fancy watching a trainwreck or getting in one yourself. JB, I STRONGLY disagree with the above statement, especially as it concerns the ex-premie site itself. (The forum is a collection of people's personal statements and opinions, and you can regard it as you see fit. However, there are many really honest and revealing posts on this forum, despite the anger, insults, and frustration). The ex-premie site itself is an attempt to collect honest information from various sources regarding Maharaji - NOT rumors or unverified information. Plus the site includes the 'Journeys' entries, which are people's personal stories of their experiences with Maharaji and Knowledge, and, as so, are not edited. Several people, including myself, have put a lot of effort into making the site into something that we feel gives much needed information about the 'other side' of being involved with Maharaji. When I found this site back in 1997, I believed that Maharaji was basically benign but just 'not for me'. I also believed the common conception, which I now believe is a MIS-conception, that any problems in Maharaji's organization were caused by the premies. However, within a week of finding this site, and the former premie site (premie.org in its previous incarnation), I found out a few things that really bothered me. First, I found out that a close premie friend who I had lost contact with has committed suicide (I don't want to argue about possible causes for this, as I simply do not know. It was very upsetting to me.) Then I found out, by reading the Forum I archives, that Maharaji had closed the ashrams. This also upset me, since I had a number of friends who were ashram premies and who were VERY devoted, and I felt that it must have been devastating to them. I also read some 'behind the scenes reports' from premies who had been close to Maharaji or the inner working of his organization, which led me to believe that Maharaji was, in fact, responsible for a lot of the actions of premies in positions of power. JB - you wrote: many of us who were in the ashram were just coasting along and not necessarily taking advantage of the 'concentrated environment' which was degenerating into all sorts of trips. Not that long after, he disbanded the ashrams as they clearly were no longer serving any real purpose. The part about 'just coasting' may be true for some - I never lived in the ashram so I cannot comment. However, I do know that there was HEAVY pressure from Maharaji circa 1977 for single premies (and even married premies without children) to move into the ashram so they could 'dedicate' their lives to Maharaji. I was involved in two separate relationships with men who were in constant conflict about whether they should remain in the relationship or move into the ashram. Both of them finally did move into the ashram, and I know that they were NOT just taking advantage of a free ride - it was an agonizing decision for them which involved giving up a lot of other things they wanted in life. And I think both of these men expected to remain in the ashram for life - just as if they had moved into a monastery. I also had some friends who had small children and thus could NOT move into the ashram. These people felt terrible about the fact that they were not doing enough direct service to Maharaji because of their family responsibilities. I know that my friends felt extremely guilty about not being able to 'give' themselves completely to Maharaji, with consequent negative effects on their marriages and families. I don't know why Maharaji closed the ashrams, although it's been suggested by several people who were in a position to know at the time that he did so because the ashram premies were getting older and might eventually become a financial liability. It's been pretty clear however, from the personal testimony of people here, that it was not handled well, and that no support in re-entering the 'world' was given to people who had lived in the ashrams their whole adult lives. Take care, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 10:22:01 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Katie Subject: Excellent post, Katie nt Message: as usual. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 11:05:43 (EDT)
From: nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Katie Subject: Agree with Gerry! Message: Very well put, Katie. Probably the most eloquent train wreck I have yet witnessed :) There have also been forum threads detailing the personal financial liabilities incurred by premies for outstanding rental of buildings and other debts incurred by the ashrams before their closure. Obviously they had no savings since any earnings had been automatically handed over. Many premies had also parted with very large sums of money from savings or family bequests to support their communities. So not only were premies made homeless without warning, many were effectively bakrupted (if that is the correct expression - seeing as they were already living in chasity, poverty and obedience!) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 12:26:09 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Katie Subject: challenge to JB & William Message: It is basically a wasteland of disinformation and frustration and really only useful, as stated above, if you fancy watching a trainwreck or getting in one yourself. I'm still wondering what you're doing here reading all this, and being part of this 'wreck': my advice is you should be more careful, you're too close, and some piece of flying metal might hurt you badly. Beside this, it's obvious you fail to understand why other people might have a different view on what you're involved in. What you call 'disinformation' is what people say about THEIR experience (different from yours), what people discovered in their own research (different from yours), and generally what displeases you. Are you able to construct something clear and articulate showing where disinformation lies? I've worked a lot, with the help of some other people, to clear my understanding of DLM/EV's Indian origins. The result of this work is what's now available on my website (EV-DLM Papers). Facts on DLM-EV's background Can you show where disinformation lies? I'll be glad to read your article, and include it in my website. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 17:03:09 (EDT)
From: William Email: None To: Katie Subject: to JB and William re this site Message: Hi Katie, I thought about moving into an ashram but never did. I talked with premies about it and one thing that came up was it wasn't meant to be a permanant place to live but more of a place to take advantage of while you're living there and 'regroup' for lack of a better word. Sounds like some of the people who did move in weren't really ready but moved in out of guilt. And that won't work very well for anyone. It's understandable though. I think alot of what people went thru had alot to do with 'where' they were 'really' at during a paticular time. Sometimes I wonder if I didn't receive K to soon but I have it now and have to do something with it. I do know some premies who did feel lost when the ashrams closed. I did and I never lived in one but I'm still alive. To me it can be a good learning experience as nothing is permanent in this world. But that's my point of view. William Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 17:34:21 (EDT)
From: Jethro Email: None To: William Subject: To William re ashramees Message: According to prempal the ashram was a lifetime commitment. A lifetime is a lifetime.(14 years is 14 years). Those who took him seriously lived that lifestyle truly for their Lord. No wonder so many went off the rails or took their own lives. When trust at the deepest level is betrayed, what else is left? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 17:38:59 (EDT)
From: William Email: None To: Jethro Subject: To William re ashramees Message: An ashram isn't Knowledge. I understand your point though. Not everyone who lived in an ashram derailed. William Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 19:08:05 (EDT)
From: Jethro Email: None To: William Subject: To William re Knowledge Message: 'An ashram isn't Knowledge' What is Knowledge? 'Not everyone who lived in an ashram derailed.' That's true. Many people lived in the ashram and used it. They kept their own bank accounts, especially the PAMs who led a double life. I'm talking about the one's that did it for real. In fact I spoke with one of those premies just yesterday. I've been trying to get some money owed to me for over 15 years. I asked her to pay me back and she said that she used the money to pay an aspirant to go see prempal and that I should feel privilaged that my money has gome to good use. I said 'But Jayne, YOU asked me for the loan and I really need the money'. She got really angry and said that even if she had £1000000 she wouldn't give me a penny. She said a few other things and then hung up. Anyway, I'm probably rambling a bit. I'm just really pissed at the fact of how many premies have STOLEN from me in that sanctimoneous fashion...and if you'reading this Jayne, I am calling you a thief. G'nite William Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 19:53:56 (EDT)
From: William Email: None To: Jethro Subject: To William re Knowledge Message: Yea Jethro that would piss me off too! William Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 17:43:15 (EDT)
From: William Email: None To: Jethro Subject: To William re ashramees Message: Sorry but I may have been thinking about a premie house instead of an ashram but my other reply still stands. William Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jun 17, 1999 at 02:13:52 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek Email: None To: Katie Subject: ***Best*** Message: It's a ***Best***. The Forum is not disinformation. It is REAL people who suffered from Maharaji's confusion when they mistakenly gave control of their lives to him. ***Best of the Forum*** Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 11:29:37 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: JB-to William Subject: WAS ANYONE THERE? Message: Anyone else at the Kissimmee ashram meeting? I know that Maharaji somehow conveyed the point that leaving the ashram was tantamount to throwing our lives to hell in a handbasket. Silly me, I didn't surreptitiously tape him. Does anyone know just what he said on that score? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 12:29:59 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Jim Subject: WAS ANYONE THERE? Message: Large excerpts of this meetings are printed in one of these old magazines I own. Would you like to read it? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 16:46:27 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Yes, please, JM Message: Sure, but of course. Bien sur, mon ami. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 17:35:08 (EDT)
From: William Email: None To: Jim Subject: WAS ANYONE THERE? Message: Jim, I take it he was meaning that the premies who wanted to move out might have a harder time practicing K which I can understand. William Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 21:56:54 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: William Subject: Thanks, William Message: Thanks for showing us all once again how arrogant, yet dumb, you cult members are. You weren't there, you don't have a transcript or tape, yet you're going to tell those who were there what Maharaji really meant. In other words, you're assuming that we're stupid. Too stupid to understand English properly. William, I'm not sure but I think I'm much smarter than you. I can just tell. I think I've got a higher IQ, I probably read much more stimulating, challenging and informative material (it's a guess but I'd bet on it) and I do very intellectually demanding work (well, sometimes it's intellectually demanding). Most importantly, I'm not weighed down by Chronic Cult Syndrome. That's got to take its toll after a while. There's no way, fella, that you're going to tell me how to interpret anything. Now, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you, too, read, write and interpret language for a living. Tell me, what do you do. What do you read? What's your education? Let's get real, bud. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 11:31:07 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: JB Subject: Yes.... Message: JB: My reading skills are not bad. Thanks for asking. You stated that, 'since MANY of us who were in the ashram were just coasting along and not necessarily taking advantage of the 'concentrated environment' which was degenerating into all sorts of trips.' (emphasis mine). I say, SPEAK FOR YOURSELF! You have no idea of the dedication level of anyone on this forum. Your statement wasn't true of ANY ashram or premie-house that I ever visited (quite a large number, actually). Apparently you were in one of the few 'bad' ones. Maybe YOU were coasting, but I NEVER met a single ashram resident that wasn't in it for the long-haul or wasn't totally dedicated. So, go ahead and continue to your attempted whitewash of M's despicable actions against the ashram residents. I'm sure they are enjoying it as much as I am..... Jackass! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 22:07:04 (EDT)
From: William Email: None To: JHB Subject: Leader-Hosin' to JHB Message: If M said anything like people going to hell for leaving the ashrams I'm sure it was taken the wrong way. Sorry but I don't buy M preaching fire and brimstone. I know how things get blown out of proportion for whatever reason. William Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 22:32:05 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: William Subject: Fuck you, asshole!!!! Message: If M said anything like people going to hell for leaving the ashrams I'm sure it was taken the wrong way. Sorry but I don't buy M preaching fire and brimstone. I know how things get blown out of proportion for whatever reason. William Here's where the gloves come off. I'm completely tired of you premies trying to save your cowardly cult leader at the expense of our intelligence. Listen, dolt, I'm a lawyer. Before becoming a lawyer I had to take the LSAT (Legal Scholastic Aptitude Test). Ever heard of it? Ever take it? How'd you do on it? I scored in the top two percentile myself. The test is all about logical skills and, equally important, reading comprehension. The only section I got any wrong answers at all was in the 'logical games' (i.e. if Bill wears red socks and can only have sex on Tuesdays but won't sleep with anyone with green socks, and Mary is never free at all during the week but sleeps with red socks every other day, and John won't have sex with Mary but....). I screwed a few of those up but I scored perfectly on the reading comprehension. Before that, after I'd been out of the cult a year or so, I went to University. I got a Magna cum Laude degree in economics in two short years. I know how to read, jerk, and I know how to understand the fucking English language. I certainly don't need some goof like you, who wasn't even there, telling me what I did and didn't understand. You people are too much. TOO much. I think I'm going to rent a video. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 23:00:39 (EDT)
From: William Email: None To: Jim Subject: Fuck you, asshole!!!! Message: Yea? Well why don't you tell me what you do and don't understand. Be specific. Tell me something YOU saw. Tell me about M telling people they would go to hell. William Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 13:09:17 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: William Subject: Specific Examples Message: William, if you ever attenede an ashram meeting with Mahararji in the 70s or early 80s, you would have heard him say how displeased he was with people who could be so confused as to ever leave the ashram. At one ashram meeting in Miami in 1980, he said that moving out of the ashram was equivalent to 'moving into a cesspool.' In Orlando, in 1979, he said that an ashram resident did not have the power to leave the ashram, it was all his grace. In 1979, in a satsang on Christmas Day in Miami, he said that anyone who lost their devotion to Maharaji would go to hell. In Philadelphia in 1978 (as quoted on the historical section of this website) he said you would smash into a thousand pieces if you stopped practicing knowledge. In another satsang in 1978, he said that when he was reviewing initiator applications, if the applicant had indicated that he or she had moved out of the ashram, he got so angry he threw the application against the wall. And there are many more, William. Get the gist? If you moved out of the ashram, and/or stopped practicing knowledge, it was personally displeasing to your lord and master, it was really bad for you, you might go to hell, smash into a thousand pieces, and you were really under his complete power anyway. I was there, I heard this stuff, and a lot more, personally. Please don't be revisionist. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 17:52:47 (EDT)
From: William Email: None To: JW Subject: Specific Examples Message: Hell yea! and M's right about it too! I have tried to deny and forget knowledge and have wished I never had it but I try to see those times when they come as times to 'let go' and surrender. As hard as it is sometimes to do. But I do know there is a place inside for me. It's a reminder of sorts. William Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 18:34:13 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: William Subject: Specific Examples Message: Well, in my experience he wasn't right about that. I left Maharaji and knowledge and I am just fine, better in fact. But, to each his own. So, I guess you now admit that Maharaji really did try to scare the shit out of us about leaving the ashram or leaving knowledge. Glad you are finally convinced. But can you also see how some of us object when Mahararji lies on his website and trys to say he always said to try knowledge if you like and leave it if you like? That really is a blantant lie, given all the contrary stuff he said to us over the years. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 19:58:57 (EDT)
From: William Email: None To: JW Subject: Specific Examples Message: Well to me it wasn't so much a scare tactic as it seems to be true and I feel he was saying it for our own good. Sorry. William Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 22:00:49 (EDT)
From: JHB Email: None To: William Subject: Specific Examples Message: William, It sounds like you have some mental problems. Please may I add my contribution to others'. You can leave M and K. Real life beckons. It's OK. The conditioning passes. You can continue to meditate if you wish. Without fear. It's OK. This is from my heart, I hope it reaches yours. John. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 23:19:37 (EDT)
From: gerry Email: None To: Jim and Willaim Subject: Fuck you, asshole!!!! Message: Jim, I understand your exasperation. And in case anyone is wondering, I personally saw Jim's credentials. Magna cum laude. Awesome. William, you're just gonna have to get over it. The pea brain eighth grade educated fraud you adore is a con man. How much evidence do you need? And in case any of you cynics out there think I'm saying this just to get invited back to vist Jim and Laurie in Victoria this summer say, maybe sometime in August, that's just not true. No indeed, not true. Not true at all. Not one bit true. False, clearly false. Verry false, indeed. Just plain wrong... wrong, wrong wrong. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 00:13:05 (EDT)
From: William Email: None To: gerry Subject: Fuck you, asshole!!!! Message: You could be right Gerry but I'm not convinced yet. Might be a grain of truth in here somewhere but all I've heard is hearsay. Everyone's bashin' M and no one's saying much so I wanted to speak up. Fan the flames alittle longer. William Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jun 17, 1999 at 00:54:40 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: gerry Subject: Oh yeah Message: Gerry, Funny, I seem to have forgotten. We were wondering what you guys were doing this summer. Care to come up, say, sometime in August maybe? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 23:47:37 (EDT)
From: No One Email: None To: Jim Subject: Fuck you, asshole!!!! Message: Jim, Its really your forum isn't it! There are many more wiser homeless people...much wiser then your ample smarts will ever no. Wisdom can not be taught at any school. wisdom and intellect are what you call US premies is and will be doing battle between your ears for many more days...oh great one! I am truly sorry that you arenot allowed at any new events. Maybe you could use your superior intellegance to personally attend one. Maybe plastic surgery or something like that. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 00:01:34 (EDT)
From: gerry Email: None To: No One Subject: Fuck you, asshole!!!! Message: Lighten up Steven! Besides, it's ''intelligence,'' not ''intellegance.'' Really Steven, you need to get your GED. I'm sure you can do it. Here's a hint: ''Know'' that is, to have knowledge of something, is spelled know. ''No'' meaning not or negative, is spelled no. Really you guys are starting to make Maharaji look educated, in contrast. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jun 17, 1999 at 04:47:40 (EDT)
From: barney Email: None To: No One Subject: Jim, Is it really your Forum? Message: Jim, Is what No One says true? Jim, Its really your forum isn't it! There are many more wiser homeless people...much wiser then Come on, now. I've been telling all my friends and family. I've got a new girlfiend and she is quite impressed. I've even given Tamara an email account at tamara@ex-premie.org. I hope that's ok? Hey, Jim, I'm going to be in Seattle, well, Tacoma actually, this summer for a conference on pulp mill odor containment operations and I think that I'm allowed to enter Canada now. And I'll bring my sheepskins and I'll show you mine if you show me yours. No, I'm not hoping to get invited or nothing. No, no, no! Well, maybe we could call it business and you can give me more agya on what you want done with the website? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jun 17, 1999 at 11:00:51 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: barney Subject: Just don't bring the homeless Message: Barney, I'll be giving out pins, plaques and pyramid statues (statuettes, really) sometime this summer. You've served, son, and you've served well. (Not sure about this recent Shp decision but, hey, we can talk about it. I'm nothing if not receptive to humble suggestions.) So, of course you can come. I'd ask, though, that you leave the sheepskin at home. I have to admit, that word grates a bit this season. Other than that, though, yes, by all means, please come. I'd only add that there's no need to bring your homeless. We have a few of our own. Don't forget to leave your guns at home too. My people will not be in a position to assist if you're stopped at the border with any. And Tammi? You may bring her along, no doubt. What does she look like? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jun 17, 1999 at 02:38:24 (EDT)
From: Roger Porno Drek Email: None To: Jim Subject: Truth about Mary & Bill Message: Jim, Yes, you should rent a video. These people are gonna bust you back down to idiot level. I'd suggest a video with very little plot and an even more limited and terse dialogue, mostly just pretty pictures and such. Doing so might help you with questions such as: if Bill wears red socks and can only have sex on Tuesdays but won't sleep with anyone with green socks, and Mary is never free at all during the week but sleeps with red socks every other day, and John won't have sex with Mary but.. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 09:25:21 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: mishkat@gateway.net To: William Subject: Rotten Vegetables - William Message: Hi William - I'm putting in a copy of the quote from Maharaji that intimidated and scared me the most when I was a premie. This quote (repeated often by premies in satsang) was very frightening to me and kept me involved and practicing even when I didn't want to be. I really thought I would go nuts if I didn't practice K (no matter that I wasn't experiencing anything!) No, I did not hear Maharaji actually say this, but it's documented, and one still-practicing (and quite devoted premie) who used to post on here confirmed that he did indeed say it. But I think the premies who are not meditating, you know what they are doing ? It is, getting three tons of vegetables in their house and not eating it. You know what that means ? When it'll start rotting, phew, it's gotta rot like hell ! And that's the way this Knowledge is. If it was a 'mantra' or something, and you forget it, doesn't matter. But this Knowledge, it's like, you got the vegetables of the whole universe with you. And if you don't meditate, can you imagine how it’s going to rot? (This was part of a Q and A session, and further down, a premie asks Maharaji: 'Guru Maharaj Ji, what happens if somebody takes Knowledge and doesn't practice it?' He answered: If you don't practice this Knowledge, you will get rotten inside. There is so much energy contained in this Knowledge, just imagine how much harm it will be able to do you if you know it, but do not use it properly. (By the way, the above is taken from: The Sayings of Guru Maharaj Ji, Vol. 3 page 62, Published by Divine United Organisation, Shri Sant Yogashram, Hans Marg, Mehrauli, New Delhi-110030) Take care, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 18:03:03 (EDT)
From: William Email: None To: Katie Subject: Rotten Vegetables - William Message: Yes Katie I have to agree with every word he said. If I know nothing else, I know that is true. You can't forget knowledge. I mean how are your going to feel when everything you need is right in front of you and you need it then but for whatever reason you don't use it, then how are you going to feel? A starving person with a full course meal in front of him and he won't eat it. What's going to happen to him? He'll get sick. William Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 18:24:49 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: William Subject: William - Just take a walk if Message: you don't like it, and don't hit your butt on the way out. Geez, William, who said that? Surely not the Lord of the Universe, was it? Then, he went on to say five times, 'What are you doing here? If this Rotten Veggie Satsang were really true, then why is Maharaji currently saying, 'If you like it, ok. If you don't, ok.' This is quite a departure from his earlier diatribes, n'est pas? Think of it William. I have been banned from ever going back to the Lord's feet, just because I criticized him. It's not much for total banishment to hell, is it? Remember when he said that 'if we had total power, we'd be zapping people left and right. It looks like that's what Maharaji is suffering from--too much power for one little self-appointed god. What's going to happen to him? Get sick? He is sick. William Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 19:37:28 (EDT)
From: Mary M Email: None To: William Subject: Rotten Vegetables - William Message: Hi William, Why don't you stop practicing K for about a week? Then you can report back if William turns into Be-ill. x, M Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 20:45:06 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: William Subject: Worried about ya, bud Message: William, You will be fine when you break away from this destructive belief system. It may be uncomfortable for a short while, BUT you will soon feel like the weight of the world is off your shoulders. You seem really trapped by this. KNOWLEDGE HAS NO POWER OVER YOU MAHARAJI HAS NO POWER OVER YOU. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jun 17, 1999 at 00:02:43 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: mishkat@gateway.net To: William Subject: Rotten Vegetables - William Message: Hi William - I don't know if you'll read this after Rob's ultimatim above, but I did want to answer. You wrote, regarding the rotten vegetables quote: Yes Katie I have to agree with every word he said. If I know nothing else, I know that is true. You can't forget knowledge. I mean how are your going to feel when everything you need is right in front of you and you need it then but for whatever reason you don't use it, then how are you going to feel? Here is probably where we differ, but I'll go ahead anyway. What I was taught in the Knowledge session was four techniques for meditation. I do understand that some people have had very intense and beautiful spiritual experiences by practicing the techniques, but I DID NOT. I really DID practice, as directed by Maharaji: one hour in the morning and one hour at night. I went to at least two Knowledge reviews. Plus I attended satsang whenever possible (often every night), and I did as much 'service' as I could (leafleting, helping at programs, contributing part of my income), since, at the time I received Knowledge, these were supposed to be essential ingredients for having 'that experience'. However, what I got in that Knowledge sesion was NOT what you are calling 'Knowledge'. I got some meditation techniques, period. I don't think that the meditation techniques that Maharaji teaches are the ONLY way anymore. I have more profound experiences using other methods: different kinds of therapy, visualization, and basically just from bumping up against the hard parts of life (death of people I was close to & so forth). I don't doubt that you've had a real experience practicing the Knowledge techniques. However, the point I want to make is that a lot of people DON'T have that experience as a result of practicing those four meditation techniques. I don't think that the 4 techniques are 'one size fits all', honestly. And I hated the 'rotten vegetable' satsang because it implied that, and straight out said that I would have to fruitlessly continue practicing meditation techniques which did not help me in any way or else I would go crazy. By the way, I haven't practiced the techniques in over 20 years, and I'm still not insane. (This is a subjective evaluation, obviously, but I believe it's true.) Take care, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jun 17, 1999 at 03:54:22 (EDT)
From: Johnny Rotten Email: None To: Katie Subject: Rotten Vegies - I was there! Message: The infamous Rotten Vegetables (RV) satsang was given in Denver in the spring of 1974 just before Maharaji (aged 16) married Marolyn (ten years older than him.) There was a blitz of relatively small local programs prior to the last one where he prophesized or warned that some people in positions of power and influence were going to publicly attack Him in the press (aka Mata Ji.) Where I was living there was a white wooden box in the back yard. One warm day just after the Rotten Vegetables satsang I was in the backyard and noticed a rather peculiar smell coming from the white wooden box. During the cooler days of early spring the people who had lived in the premie house had stored their vegetables (mostly brocoli and cauliflower) in the box and it was a complete rotten gooey mess. Being the responsible person that I was I cleaned it out throwing away about 40 or 50 pounds (approx. 20 kgs.) of slimy rotten vegetables. I was quite certain that the entire Rotten Vegetables satsang was exclusively for me. And look where I am now! Actually, the combination of the RV satsang and the rotten vegetables had a huge negative impact on me. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jun 17, 1999 at 11:10:27 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Johnny Rotten Subject: Good name for an ex band Message: The 'Rotten Veggies' (I always hated the word 'veggies' but then this isn't about aesthetics, is it?). Could produce a compilation album or something. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 22:37:58 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Sandra Subject: So the Lord mantle was better Message: I remember very specifically, when Bob Mishler wanted him to try on the mantle of 'world humanitarian leader,' he hated it. That, by the way, precipitated their parting of the ways for you history buffs. Maharaji rejected the persona and title that Mishler thought would be most apt for him. You are right. Maharaji thought that Lord was a much better mantle. It was short, easy to say, and even easier to remember him in our prayers. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |