Jim -:- What if Url left us alone? -:- Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 11:51:49 (EDT)

__ AJW -:- Blimey Jim -:- Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 06:15:15 (EDT)

__ bill -:- urly-man -:- Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 00:15:32 (EDT)

__ Mel Bourne -:- Gastronomical advise.... -:- Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 15:26:07 (EDT)

__ __ Ben Lurking -:- Re: Gastronomical advise.... -:- Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 18:18:13 (EDT)

__ __ __ Unrelated Mel -:- Carol's relative... -:- Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 21:19:34 (EDT)

__ Roger Elk Drek -:- ***Best of ELK*** -:- Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 14:27:57 (EDT)

AJW -:- Premies Try This... -:- Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 06:43:43 (EDT)

__ Mel Bourne -:- Well tried..... -:- Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 15:03:25 (EDT)

__ __ AJW -:- Mel, a question. -:- Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 06:00:42 (EDT)

__ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Re: Anth, an answer.. -:- Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 21:56:14 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Thanks Mel -:- Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 05:20:49 (EDT)

__ __ Roger $$$ Drek -:- Mel, but it is! And now *** Best of Forum*** -:- Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 15:42:50 (EDT)

__ __ __ Munificent Mel -:- Implied threats..... -:- Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 21:47:02 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Liz -:- Mel really Glen? -:- Wed, Aug 25, 1999 at 23:30:24 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Re: Mel really Glen? -:- Thurs, Aug 26, 1999 at 18:39:00 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Coercive Tactics. -:- Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 05:47:49 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Sheltered Mel -:- Re: Coercive Tactics. -:- Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 09:56:27 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Earth Calling Mel. -:- Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 14:46:10 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Leave Mel alone -:- Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 11:02:42 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Jerry, I like Mel -:- Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 15:18:54 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- How about the 'outer' experience? -:- Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 14:05:06 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mel on the 'outer' -:- The 'outer' experience and incentive -:- Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 14:10:21 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Liz -:- Conning people for money -:- Wed, Aug 25, 1999 at 00:33:35 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ an old friend -:- Re: Conning people for money -:- Thurs, Aug 26, 1999 at 03:53:24 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Liz -:- Re: Conning people for money -:- Fri, Aug 27, 1999 at 01:59:06 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Liz -:- Re: Conning people for money -:- Fri, Aug 27, 1999 at 01:38:09 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ if you are a friend then -:- Re: Conning people for money -:- Thurs, Aug 26, 1999 at 13:37:48 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Liz -:- Re: Conning people for money -:- Fri, Aug 27, 1999 at 01:42:39 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Seats for Cash -:- Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 19:00:07 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Re: Seats for Cash -:- Wed, Aug 25, 1999 at 05:26:36 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Roger Thumbs-Down Drek -:- Nah, your response doesn't cut it -:- Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 03:12:10 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ A not too disappointed Mel -:- Re: Nah, your response doesn't cut it -:- Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 10:08:49 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Utter bollocks -:- Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 22:29:26 (EDT)

__ __ __ AJW -:- An Honour Indeed -:- Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 06:12:32 (EDT)

Jim -:- Stephan Jay Gould is a jerk (OT) -:- Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 21:40:13 (EDT)

__ Jerry -:- And boring, too. -:- Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 08:48:36 (EDT)

__ __ Mickey Moss -:- Re: And boring, too. -:- Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 15:55:37 (EDT)

__ __ __ Jerry -:- You're right, MM -:- Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 16:21:57 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ nigel -:- Don't get me started on Pinker... -:- Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 21:13:51 (EDT)

__ __ nigel -:- Now you're all ganging up on me! -:- Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 10:06:17 (EDT)

__ __ __ Jerry -:- See what Gould gets ya? -:- Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 11:55:42 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ nigel -:- Hmm, maybe two different issues here -:- Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 13:13:53 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ bill -:- Hmm, maybe two different issues here -:- Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 00:49:40 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- Hmm, -:- Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 18:34:38 (EDT)

__ AJW -:- Why is Sex Fun? -:- Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 06:13:06 (EDT)

__ nigel -:- Well, he spells better than you, Jum -:- Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 22:08:11 (EDT)

__ __ Jim -:- Nige, I've got a problem -:- Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 22:19:01 (EDT)

__ __ __ Nigel -:- We all know that... -:- Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 23:05:16 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Mickey Moss -:- Re: We all know that... -:- Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 03:48:05 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Okay, fair enough, but... -:- Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 23:23:56 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Gregg -:- How about E. O. Wilson -:- Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 09:55:51 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Way -:- Re: Gould -:- Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 11:16:00 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mickey Moss -:- Re: Gould -:- Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 14:54:30 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Way -:- Re: Gould -:- Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 16:28:34 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mickey Moss -:- Re: Gould -:- Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 19:36:59 (EDT)

Nigel -:- What a piece of work is premie-man -:- Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 19:58:38 (EDT)

__ bill -:- 'saw ballet in a flat foots waddle' -:- Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 01:35:48 (EDT)

__ AJW -:- Imagine -:- Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 05:24:57 (EDT)

__ Jim -:- But what about the lessons of Narnia? -:- Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 22:40:59 (EDT)

__ __ nigel -:- Re: But what about the lessons of Narnia? -:- Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 23:11:59 (EDT)

Hihomumio -:- See my post in The List thread... -:- Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 19:43:22 (EDT)

__ AJW -:- URL Where are you? -:- Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 07:05:49 (EDT)

__ __ Hihomumio -:- Re: URL Where are you? -:- Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 09:46:50 (EDT)

Roger E. Drudge -:- More bad news - The Poop on Jim OT -:- Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 15:16:33 (EDT)

__ Jim -:- That's not mine, well, not all of it anyway -:- Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 20:51:33 (EDT)

__ __ Marianne -:- Is Jim a Victoria area official? -:- Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 23:31:12 (EDT)

__ __ __ Mickey Moss -:- Re: Is Jim a Victoria area official? -:- Wed, Aug 25, 1999 at 00:04:43 (EDT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- Oh no! They're going to get into the X-Flies! -:- Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 00:17:35 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Now I know why XFiles is filmed in BC! -:- Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 00:47:15 (EDT)

RT the Prepared Ex -:- OT-NAVY: cities at risk/Y2K -:- Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 15:04:16 (EDT)

__ AJW -:- Y2K Too Late Mate -:- Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 09:18:17 (EDT)

__ bill -:- NAVY: cities at risk/Y2K -:- Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 21:26:26 (EDT)

__ __ RT -:- Re: NAVY: cities at risk/Y2K -:- Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 08:52:25 (EDT)

__ barney -:- No sweat - just remember Holy Name! -:- Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 15:30:03 (EDT)

Jean-Michel -:- The Radiance of K! -:- Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 13:35:45 (EDT)

__ barney -:- Premie Politics -:- Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 16:15:06 (EDT)

__ __ Ben Lurking -:- Re: Premie Politics -:- Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 16:36:37 (EDT)

__ Jean-Michel -:- M's trainings in Montreal! -:- Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 13:39:31 (EDT)

__ __ Montreal Ex -:- Montreal it was! -:- Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 16:42:03 (EDT)

Jim -:- Funny, OT, Canadian, feminist.... -:- Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 11:53:11 (EDT)

__ Robyn -:- funny you should mention that! -:- Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 15:16:12 (EDT)

__ AJBaaaaaah -:- Animals Are Human Too -:- Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 15:10:10 (EDT)

__ Marianne -:- Re: Funny, OT, Canadian, feminist.... -:- Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 13:49:17 (EDT)

Jim -:- And how about the PREMIE myths? -:- Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 11:45:17 (EDT)

__ gerry -:- Re: And how about the PREMIE myths? -:- Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 13:02:36 (EDT)

__ __ Ben Lurking -:- Re: And how about the PREMIE myths? -:- Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 16:41:26 (EDT)

__ __ Marianne -:- Geography -:- Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 14:09:13 (EDT)

Robyn -:- OT, David Blain street magician -:- Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 08:47:27 (EDT)

__ Paul -:- Re: OT, David Blain street magician -:- Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 14:34:58 (EDT)

__ __ Robyn -:- Re: OT, David Blain street magician -:- Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 15:11:09 (EDT)

__ __ __ Paul -:- Re: OT, David Blain street magician -:- Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 17:28:00 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Re: OT, David Blain street magician -:- Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 06:07:47 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Paul -:- Re: OT, David Blain street magician -:- Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 09:17:39 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Re: OT, David Blain street magician -:- Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 09:24:14 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Way -:- Re: OT, David Blain street magician -:- Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 10:18:38 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Re: OT, David Blain street magician -:- Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 12:23:46 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Blaine is a magician -:- Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 12:17:35 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Re: Blaine is a magician -:- Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 12:27:28 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Re: Blaine is a magician -:- Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 13:11:23 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Re: Blaine is a magician -:- Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 14:31:29 (EDT)

Date: Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 11:51:49 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: All Subject: What if Url left us alone? Message:

I don't have time to reply to anything in that serious thread below (Gould, etc.) but I do wonder, what if Url split at last? Think of the stinging lessons he'd be leaving us with? At last, someone's shown us just how dangerous it is when we assume things. When we lie, like Nigel and Ben did, and when we don't have to courage to call a spade a spade and stay the course like me. Url, if oyu're reading this, you have to know that you've got me thinking. I really did wimp out there, didn't I? An asshole? Would it be fair to call myself an asshole? That's all I feel like now, you know. And no, it's not your fault. You were just trying to help. Trying to impart a little, what do you guys call it? Understanding, I guess. Huh? A little understanding? Url, you and the others, you do have something to say. I regret sometimes that we don't seem to want or even be able to listen. But then, it's not in the words anyway, is it? Your love, I mean. Your love, your understanding? But, and I'm a little cautious admitting this in such a cynical, ugly place as this, but, well, I feel something, you know. There's something, a little, hm, not sure what to call it. Your posts really do raise some questions in my heart of all places. Like, maybe Maharaji really is the Lord after all? You know? You've gotten me thinking that all over again. And mayber, if I'd stayed the course I could have been like you by now? You know. That's another big one. Anyway, if you're gone, I just want to say thanks for trying. In some small way, I think you've really gotten through to a lot of us even though we're far too something-or-other to ever tell you. Url, we're fucked here. Oh, my Lord, what have we done? Oh, Maharaji, why hast thou forsaken me? And then, when you see the vulture's shadow, circling you in the desert, and the only water around is your imaginary tear, your one, single tear that can't really fall anyway, you're so dry, then, when you look up and you see, lo and behold, the vulture is Maharaji! No, that's not it either, is it? Help! Waiter, could I have another premie please?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 06:15:15 (EDT) From: AJW Email: None To: Jim Subject: Blimey Jim Message:

Blimey Jim, You've got me thinking now. Shit, I should never have carved my beragon into a hash pipe. Maybe if I cut the end of the broom handle off I'll be able to use that somehow. (No suggestions please.) Anth the Second Thought.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 00:15:32 (EDT) From: bill Email: None To: Jim Subject: urly-man Message:

I have to admit Jimmie, I like your comedy, You ought to put the bat in the closet and pillow fight the premies, you are good at it.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 15:26:07 (EDT) From: Mel Bourne Email: mbvictoria@hotmail.com To: Jim Subject: Gastronomical advise.... Message:

[Jim - ]Waiter, could I have another premie please? [Waiter - ]Certainly sir, but I must warn you that they are extremely inedible despite their soft appearance and sweet taste. Careful Jim, the only thing that you really swallow is your own slick propaganda, don't make yourself too sick .... Mel

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 18:18:13 (EDT) From: Ben Lurking Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Re: Gastronomical advise.... Message:

Are you related to Carol Bourne (of Malibu)?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 21:19:34 (EDT) From: Unrelated Mel Email: None To: Ben Lurking Subject: Carol's relative... Message:

No, and my real name isn't Dennis either, despite claims by Nigel. (My apologies to the real Dennis, whoever you are, I hope you're not getting hate mail on my behalf!) Mel

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 14:27:57 (EDT) From: Roger Elk Drek Email: None To: Jim Subject: ***Best of ELK*** Message:

Jim, I've contacted some premies that I know that I'm still on good terms and they've contacted some of the folks at Enjoying Life with Knowledge (ELK). Anyway, with just a little editing your post is now ***Best of ELK***. Congratulations!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 06:43:43 (EDT) From: AJW Email: None To: All Subject: Premies Try This... Message:

Hi, I've noticed a conflict here between Premies, and Ex-Premies, on the subject of money. The Premies are adamant it's all about an 'innner experience', be it God, snot, whatever, and nothing to do with cash. So, if you're one of those still on the sinking ship, water up to your waist, yelling, 'Have faith in the Captain, we're on our way to Paradise', next time you're: Asked to fork out 25 quid, and make a donation to watch some crappy videos and listen to some bloke ramble on for an hour. Asked to fork out 8 quid for a crappy, tacky, 'Pravda' style magazine that tells you, for 36 pages, how beautiful everything is in the world of 'Knowledge'. (Turn to the 'Around the World' section, see how many white South African premies are making their black servants watch Introductory Videos. See Knowledge spread.) Get a call from your local 'rep' (who represents an insatiable need for quids) saying would you like to try a bit of 'financial service'. Get a leaflet pressuring you to complete a standing order at your bank, paying loads of quids each month to do 'his work' (the new extension in Malibu for example) Get asked along to a special 'fundraising meeting for active premies' and told you are a miserable turd because you are stopping the Lord of Creation from completing his Master Plan for Satyuga (getting the new extension finished by Christmas, and upgrading the private jet) due to lack of cash, and if the Universe folds in darkness and the night is filled with the cries of motherless babies, and your Master is forced out onto the street to sell 'Big Issue' (A newspaper sold by the homeless in Britain), It's all your fault, you dirty, mean fisted Judas you. And if you get a call from a honcho, telling you about this private little project Maharaji's got going that needs a little funding... Brothers and Sisters...if you are asked any of these, or similar questions, simply reply, 'It's not about money. It's all about an inner experience. Go and get a job you idle sod' (All prices are quoted in quids) Anth the Only Trying to be Helpful

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 15:03:25 (EDT) From: Mel Bourne Email: mbvictoria@hotmail.com To: AJW Subject: Well tried..... Message:

....but, unfortunately, Anth, you got it wrong! It is about 'inner experience', and that has always been the priority. These days people make their own choices when it comes to providing financial support for Maharaji's work, and, despite your opinion, remain free to do so. Nice try, Anth, but you're not really all that helpful at all... Mel

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 06:00:42 (EDT) From: AJW Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Mel, a question. Message:

Hi Mel, What's raising money for a multi million dollar jet got to do with an inner experience? Anth the Grounded

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 21:56:14 (EDT) From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: AJW Subject: Re: Anth, an answer.. Message:

Anth For some......nothing For others....maybe an 'inner experience' of satisfaction in the belief that in some way they have been able to make it easier for Maharaji to spread Knowledge around the world. Mel

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 05:20:49 (EDT) From: AJW Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Thanks Mel Message:

Thanks Mel, for your honest answer. By the way, he used to spread knowledge a lot faster when he went first class on regular airlines. Maybe you should change tactics. Anth the Seriously.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 15:42:50 (EDT) From: Roger $$$ Drek Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Mel, but it is! And now *** Best of Forum*** Message:

From my own recent experience I'd say that Anth has the gratitude-inner experience thing nailed. You must be aware that in Margie's videos he speaks, of course, of the Innnnnner Experience and at some point Gratitude is mentioned. Of course, this gratitude or donating of time and money is purely optional as Maharaji will even say, but if you know what's good for you... Roger's ***Best of the Forum***

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 21:47:02 (EDT) From: Munificent Mel Email: None To: Roger $$$ Drek Subject: Implied threats..... Message:

Of course, this gratitude or donating of time and money is purely optional as Maharaji will even say, but if you know what's good for you... Roger, the part of your statement that I have highlighted implies some kind of threat by Maharaji to premies if they don't donate. Nothing is further from the truth. If people want to make contributions.... fine, if they don't...that's their own business. As for the gratitude issue, I think that Maharaji is simply pointing out that any support should come from a sincere desire to help as a result of one's own positive experience rather than obligation. I am not aware of any coercive tactics by Maharaji to force poeple to contribute money. Maharaji has always said that support should be voluntary, and I know premies who haven't contributed to the plane or other projects for their own personal reasons. They still (apparently) seem to enjoy the 'inner experience' without any problems! I think the notion that there is obligation, even implied threats to non contributors is a typical 'ex' beat up. I challenge you to publish this reply on your 'Best of the Forum' in reply to Anth's opinions, in the interests of a balanced debate. Mel

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Aug 25, 1999 at 23:30:24 (EDT) From: Liz Email: None To: Munificent Mel Subject: Mel really Glen? Message:

If you read these posts in a Yorkshire accent it could be Glenville Whitaker! love, Liz

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 26, 1999 at 18:39:00 (EDT) From: AJW Email: None To: Liz Subject: Re: Mel really Glen? Message:

Hi Liz, In a post below, on fundraising, Mel gives the impression he lives in Australia. I used to think Nil was Glen. Anth the Seeker of True Identities.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 05:47:49 (EDT) From: AJW Email: None To: Munificent Mel Subject: Coercive Tactics. Message:

Hi Mel, Haven't you ever been to a fundraising meeting. A fundraising meeting is one big coercive tactic to get your quids out the bank and over the ocean to Malibu. Of course Maharaji doesn't go out and lay it on the line himself. He yells at a couple of PAMs, and they go out and yell at National Co-ordinators. For big projects, the money to be raised is divided up by country- each given a quota to achieve. If the quota's not met, the national co-ordinator gets an earful from a PAM who's hot from the Lostus Feet. Then there's the fundraisers. Have you ever been to meeting with Joram? Believe me Mel, he doesn't stand there and say, 'If you want to make donations, fine, if not it's your own business'. I remember one National Co-ordinator standing up and saying, 'Parents. Don't buy your children that bar of chocolate. Give the money to Maharaji instead.' padded with bollocks like, 'He's the Lord. He is giving your children life. What are you giving him?' Mel, where do you think all the money for the Tacky Hotel on the Hill and the private jets comes from? It all just tumbles in naturally? Do me a favour. Elan Vital stumbles from one financial crisis to the next. Anyone within the organisation knows that there is a constant, insatiable pressure for funds. My wife and I were phoned up once at 3.30 am, when there was a fundraising panic going on. The co-ordinator had got incredibly inspired and was coercing money through the night, by His Grace. So Mel. Are you naive, or just giving us some spin or what? Anth the 10% Anyway, as a premie, you do know what's good for you. It's that 'inner experience that comes from the satisfaction of helping Maharaji spread 'knowledge'', right? But like I said, the rot's set in, and he spread it much quicker in the 70s, when he used public transport.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 09:56:27 (EDT) From: Sheltered Mel Email: None To: AJW Subject: Re: Coercive Tactics. Message:

Hi Anth Yes, of course I've been to fund raising meetings, but maybe the Australian meetings and fundraisers are more civilised than the English ones! The meetings I have attended are quite honest about the purpose for which funds were required and how much is needed, but I have never felt particularly pressured or coerced into contributing in the way that you describe. It is quite normal for any voluntary organisation to call for donations from it's membership to fund it's goals and Elan Vital is no different in this regard. As I said, some premies that I know who have not contributed do not seem to have been adversely affected in their 'inner experience'. Also, as you well know, entry to Maharaji's events are usually free and although donations are requested to cover costs, there is no fixed mandatory charge. (I can imagine that event finance coordinators must have nightmares about how to make ends meet!) This way of managing event finances would seem to endorse the 'voluntary' contribution philosophy that I mentioned in my earlier post. Mel

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 14:46:10 (EDT) From: AJW Email: None To: Sheltered Mel Subject: Earth Calling Mel. Message:

So Mel, Where did the money for the eyesore on the hill, and the private jet come from? Do you think he's got a part-time job or something? And when there's no money to pay the massive rental for the hangar, or the new Ferrari he wants or whatever, do you think the premies just sit around 'waiting for voluntary donations'. Are you kidding? This is the Lord we're talking about right Mel? Our purpose on Earth is to serve him. Mel, when Maharaji wants something bad, who's going to tell him he can't afford it? Nobody. Because, by his grace, anything is possible. It's a lack of understanding that's telling you he can't afford it. This is his game, to make you surrender and see how far his grace really goes. Of course the money's out there. Shit, I even heard premies go holiday with their families nowadays. Also Mel, for years and years, any project that diverts cash from the Holy Lostus feet has been knocked on the head at birth. Only projects that generate quids are encouraged. And so it goes... Anth the Breadhead.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 11:02:42 (EDT) From: Jerry Email: None To: AJW Subject: Leave Mel alone Message:

Anth, Mel is quite content to build mansions on the hill for his savior, as are oodles of other premies. Who cares? The question I'd like answered is how much of the money came from people who have given up finding what they're looking for through Maharaji? How much of THEIR money went into the mansion on the hill? How does fatboy sleep at night knowing that the bed he sleeps in was paid for by people that think he's full of shit? On second thought, it's not inconceivable that Mel will be an ex someday. Then he'll understand just how sickening M's lifestyle is, knowing he contributed to it.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 15:18:54 (EDT) From: AJW Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Jerry, I like Mel Message:

Hi Jerry, I like chatting to Mel. In my limited interaction with him, he's come across as quite open minded and up for debate. He admits he's in a cult, which is rare for a premie. Anth the Sanguine

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 14:05:06 (EDT) From: Marianne Email: None To: Sheltered Mel Subject: How about the 'outer' experience? Message:

seats up front at events with M, special audiences with M, invites to Malibu, etc. So it seems that one's 'outer' experience can be enhanced by large donations. Know any 'regular premie' who enjoys these advantages & who declines to donate when the fundraising call goes out? Last I heard, darshan was supposed to enhance that inner experience. But, I guess that depends on whether you think he's God or not..... Marianne

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 14:10:21 (EDT) From: Mel on the 'outer' Email: None To: Marianne Subject: The 'outer' experience and incentive Message:

Hi Marianne... Certainly it would seem that there is an incentive for the 'outer' experience, this is undeniable, but so what? Many organisations give some priority status for generous financial members, football clubs with special seating, members stands, etc, etc. Even the theatre provides more expensive seating up front. If the incentive works and there's a 'win/win' situation, and Maharaji's work is adequately funded...fine, there's no crime in that, now, is there? Mel

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Aug 25, 1999 at 00:33:35 (EDT) From: Liz Email: None To: Mel on the 'outer' Subject: Conning people for money Message:

Well Mel, I think it SUCKS! Liz

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 26, 1999 at 03:53:24 (EDT) From: an old friend Email: None To: Liz Subject: Re: Conning people for money Message:

Hi Liz, Well...considering he doesn't charge $ to receive knowledge...and considering that there are many thousands of people of every kind, age, nationality and background from all over the world who still love him and love what he teaches...wherein lies the con? If you get the satisfaction that all these people derive from this fellow and his teachings...and over a 28 year period to boot, who's conning who here? If you feel it sucks, perhaps YOU lost the thread with him. Who are you (or anyone else here) to tell others what they should and shouldn't enjoy? Just something to ponder. I think that some people HERE, who have NOTHING whatsoever to offer others, are trying to con people out of their own hard-earned, long term and valuable experience by marinating them in really cheezy, low-level doubt. Is that not a possibility? Or are you so sure that Maharaji means nothing to you or anybody else? Do you think the world is waiting to hear the accumulated wit and wisdom of Jim Heller? Or Anth, the Not Quite as Clever as He Thinks He Is who believes that the essence of knowledge is 'snot'? I most seriously doubt it. History will wash this total lack of awareness away. If you could pop in 700 years from now I think you'd be most surprised. best to you, an old friend

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 27, 1999 at 01:59:06 (EDT) From: Liz Email: None To: an old friend Subject: Re: Conning people for money Message:

Dear Old Friend, Even Christians know that doubt is a valuable thing.... Questions need to be asked and any unknowns need to be exposed for a healthy spirit & REAL communication. So put that in your pipe & smoke it Harold MacMillan! By the way i'm not telling anyone how they should fee or act. I'm just telling people sincerely that I feel like a great weight has lifted since the monkey's off my back.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 27, 1999 at 01:38:09 (EDT) From: Liz Email: None To: an old friend Subject: Re: Conning people for money Message:

Dear Old Friend, Are you really an old friend of mine? How intriguing. I like the way you said maybe YOU lost the thread with him.... how about He lost the thread with me? I had devoted 29 years to him and he doesn't even know I exist. Don't give me any crap about my ego. He just likes all that money I donated over the years. Love, Liz

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 26, 1999 at 13:37:48 (EDT) From: if you are a friend then Email: None To: an old friend Subject: Re: Conning people for money Message:

will you tell us what the one you love and his organisation are are doing to help find Jagdeo to answer paedophille charges?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 27, 1999 at 01:42:39 (EDT) From: Liz Email: None To: if you are a friend then Subject: Re: Conning people for money Message:

This old friend might be Glen, if that's the case you are asking someone who should feel responsible for some of the misdemeanors he must have observed over the years. Love, Liz

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 19:00:07 (EDT) From: JHB Email: None To: Mel on the 'outer' Subject: Seats for Cash Message:

If the incentive works and there's a 'win/win' situation, and Maharaji's work is adequately funded...fine, there's no crime in that, now, is there? Yes. Doesn't it strike you as absurd that money buys a seat closer to Maharaji? What about sincerity, devotion, service, depth of meditation experience, love? Can't these get a seat closer to Maharaji? I must admit that I once bought seats for myself and my wife at a program at Wembley. The allocation of the 'sponsor's' seats was a farce, but we managed to get our seats in the first 10 rows - cost me about $1200 I think. An usher tried to get me to trade places on one of the evenings, but I told him I'd waited 15 years to be this close, so there was no way I'd trade. No, the seats for cash thing is just another symptom of the corruption and decay in the movement. John.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Aug 25, 1999 at 05:26:36 (EDT) From: AJW Email: None To: JHB Subject: Re: Seats for Cash Message:

Hi John, Why don't you ask for your money back? If you threaten court action they usually cough up. Anth the Book Balancer

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 03:12:10 (EDT) From: Roger Thumbs-Down Drek Email: None To: Munificent Mel Subject: Nah, your response doesn't cut it Message:

Mel, Nope. Doesn't meet the bar, even if the bar is rather low. Indeed, Maharaji's personal plea for the display of gratitude is very mild. And I say that having been there as recently as the mid 90's. However, the constant special events with traveling big wheels is a bit more intense. You are correct that there currently isn't a real implied threat. However, if one is a believer in the sense that Maharaji is the Master and maybe even the Divine Incarnation then there is probably a little bit of the trying to buy some grace through contributions. Hell, the prime example is that the big contributors get good seats at programs and maybe even a personal audience. So, maybe it is not an implied threat that bad things will happen rather it is that more good things will happen (e.g.. grace.) And the corollary is that fewer good things that happen is bad. Hence an implied threat. Again, nobody mentions this, but many premies must think this. I know that I did, but maybe I was really fucked up and that's why I left.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 10:08:49 (EDT) From: A not too disappointed Mel Email: None To: Roger Thumbs-Down Drek Subject: Re: Nah, your response doesn't cut it Message:

Roger I didn't really expect such an honour (being on the wrong side of the fence, of course), and I'm over the disappointment now.... At least your view 'implied threat' appears positive, human nature being what it is, I can understand the idea of 'buying' front row seats at events, and obviously Maharaji does too, but I think this would qualify as 'incentive' rather than 'coercion' or 'threats', don't you? Mel

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 22:29:26 (EDT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Munificent Mel Subject: Utter bollocks Message:

You make it sound so nice and cosy, Melbourne. Now I haven't been around premies since the early eighties but the way it used to be was heavy satsang in the evening telling us how we should give more to the Lord and how we're all a load of lazy, selfish bastards. Now you're saying it's all changed and suddenly everyone's having a profound inner experience which moves them to donate money to Maharaji for his luxuries etc. Precious few were having any lasting inner experience back in the seventies which prompted them to reach deeper into their pockets and I'm sure it's just the same now. People don't change from one decade to the next. This cult's tired and I'm amazed it's still going after all this time. There you are Mel, I've thrown you a good line to come back on.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 06:12:32 (EDT) From: AJW Email: None To: Roger $$$ Drek Subject: An Honour Indeed Message:

Hi Roger, It's always an honour to be upgraded to the 'Best of..'. Knowing a longer piece may end up featured on your site always makes me try a bit harder when I write one. There's some great stuff over there. I just read KBs Holy Family story, about the row between Maharaji and Raja-Ji. I always liked Raja Ji, he came across as an ok guy. Time for my Horlicks Adious Anth the Loves the See His Name in Print.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 21:40:13 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: All Subject: Stephan Jay Gould is a jerk (OT) Message:

Time Magazine's cover story this week is about evolution. About the Kansas school board's silly attempt to play see-no-evil and about the latest discoveries of early hominids like Url. One point that might prove somewhat problematic for creationists of any stripe is that we now know beyond question that mankind's evolution has not been one continuous advancement up a particular path. To the contrary, there have been several competing branches of the hominid tree at almost every early juncture. These various species competed with one another until one species alone prevailed. Thus if God had a plan it was rife with indecision and fickleness. But that's God for you. Anyway, the article ends with a short essay by Gould who makes the simple point that evolution's entirely indisputable. A point that's trite to the reasonable but still unacceptable no matter what to the God-fearing. But there's one thing Gould says that's sheer poppycock. He says that there's no reason for religion and science to be at odds because they address two entirely different aspects of life and the world we know. Science investigates and learns about the physical world and whence we derived, while religion teaches us ethics and about spiritual values. (Something like that. I don't have it here. I read it at the office.) What an idiot! What a completely stupid thing to say! Religion might now be fighting for some compromise that obliterates all reference to its origins and its original purpose which was, in fact, to explain the very things science now actually does inform us about. That's where it came from and any credibility it has must necessarily derive from that beginning. Thus, if religion was simply wrong about how it all came to be, it certainly isn't in any position to explain to us how we should live or, better still, where we're going and how to prepare. Give me a break, Gould, you ninny! Now, tell me, those of you who care and know a little something, as do I, about the Dawkins / Gould dispute, do you think Gould really believes this shit or is just trying to get Dawkins' goat? Dawkins, remember, is a fairly aggressive atheist who's quite outspoken in stating his belief that religion's bankrupt. He's also been part of this ongoing academic feud with Gould for some years now, an argument essentially over the course and mechanisms of evolution. My thought is that Gould might just be enjoying playing the part of the 'peace-maker' between science and religion simply because Dawkins would never think of doing any such thing. Nige? What do you think? Jerry? Anyone?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 08:48:36 (EDT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: And boring, too. Message:

I don't think Gould is a very clear communicator and seems to fear taking a stand one way or another on evolution's implications. I think he's overly, boringly, cautious. Worse, It appears that he's chastising the more vibrant and interesting evolutionary theorists. 'Now now children. Let's not jump to conclusions. There's still much that is unknown'. This would all be fine and good if he wasn't such an insufferable bore about it. Here's a bit of his cautionary warnings from an interview he did with Skeptic magazine. Skeptic: Some people criticize you as going way too far with contingency, and that you are a radical contingency theorist who negates laws of nature and large-scale forces. Gould: No, and, in fact, that's not my argument. I hope it is more subtle than that. I'm afraid very few people get it, but not because I haven't said it clearly enough. It is the great frustration of my life because I think I write very carefully and clearly. There's nothing you can do with people who won't read or ponder. My argument in Wonderful Life is that there is a domain of law and a domain of contingency, and our struggle is to find the line between them. The reason why the domain of contingency is so vast, and much vaster than most people have thought, is not because there isn't a lawlike domain. It is because we are primarily interested in ourselves and we have posited various universal laws of nature. It is a psychological issue. It is because we want to understand ourselves and we want to see ourselves as results of lawlike predictability and sensible products of the universe in that sense. Contingency is important in that psychological sense. Many of the deep questions we ask turn out to be questions about contingency because they are questions about an evolutionary detail--Homo sapiens. If we were more interested in the structural laws of ecological pyramids there is probably a fair amount of predictability there. But if you are asking why Homo sapiens rules the world, and you are trying to express that in terms of timeless laws of increasing complexity in evolution, you've made a mistake. You are looking at a contingent detail, which is that humans exist, and you're trying to interpret it by these laws. How nice of him to tell us we should proceed with caution. But this is OK. The problem I have with Gould is that he doesn't seem to express himself clearly about this contingency that we all should be aware of. He's just saying, 'Be careful'. Fuck him. If he can't point out in an interesting manner WHY we should be careful and state his case in an enlightening manner that makes you feel as if you've learned something and are wiser because of it, who's going to care what he has to say?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 15:55:37 (EDT) From: Mickey Moss Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Re: And boring, too. Message:

Jerry: By 'contingency' doesn't he just mean 'non-aboslute?' Isn't he just saying that we tend to get self-centered, and that this is methodologically invalid? I mean, it's not just 'tut tut.' It's more fundamental than that. Correct me if I'm wrong. I know so little that sometimes I feel a Guru must have hit me over the head. -MM

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 16:21:57 (EDT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Mickey Moss Subject: You're right, MM Message:

Hi MM, Yeah, you're right. This is what he's saying (I think). But as a Dawkins fan, to me it sounds like 'tut-tut'. If he was more engaging in how he states his case, maybe I'd be more receptive to what he has to say. As it stands, he's a dreadful bore. About those guru knocks to the head, try a little Dawkins. He's good medicine for them. Steven Pinker, too. Right Nige? Hee, hee....

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 21:13:51 (EDT) From: nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Jerry Subject: Don't get me started on Pinker... Message:

Jeez, I'm tired. Saturday night and five pints of ale behind me... So how does the mind work? (- or in my case, when will it?)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 10:06:17 (EDT) From: nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Jerry Subject: Now you're all ganging up on me! Message:

Hi Jerry, I don't think this is a typical Gouldian quote - especially since it appears to come from a spoken interview. I tend to agree that SJG has never really outlined his contigency ideas in way that is pitched for the average non-specialist reader (in the way that, say, Dawkins does). 'Wonderful Life' is probably his best effort that I have read, but the book is a bit of a struggle unless you are a serious enthusiast for pre-cambrian arthropods etc. (which I'm certainly not!). But as I said, I think it is as an essayist he is on his best form. I don't think there is any doubt that he is an atheist, and I think his apparent cosying up to religion is probably more in the interests of social harmony than any personal doubts on where he stands. (I'm a bit puzzled, though, why an atheist would think any spiritual leader has got anything useful to teach.) I think he is right to point out that gene-level selection is not always the most appropriate way of explaining evolutionary change or extinctions. (Rose makes similar arguments about selection happening at anything from the individual right up to species-level - as does the geneticist Richard Lewontin.) I don't really feel qualified to pass judgement - and maybe they are all right, and their differences are just a matter of emphasis - but I tend to be swayed by the fact that Gould, Rose and Lewontin are are still active researchers in paleontology, neurobiology and genetics, respectively, while Dawkins has been pretty much an armchair theorist for the past thirty years.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 11:55:42 (EDT) From: Jerry Email: None To: nigel Subject: See what Gould gets ya? Message:

...Gould, Rose and Lewontin are are still active researchers in paleontology, neurobiology and genetics, respectively, while Dawkins has been pretty much an armchair theorist for the past thirty years. Hi, Nige. This may be so, but for the newly interested, reading Gould and Rose (I don't know about Lewontin) is just too tedious to bear. Dawkins, on the other hand is at times stunning in his revelations on evolutionary theory, a genuine pleasure to indulge in. If Gould hopes to compete with him in getting his point across, he's going to first have to learn how not to put us to sleep. If I come across any of the essays you recommend, I'll give them a try. I hope to find them as enjoyable as you have.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 13:13:53 (EDT) From: nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Jerry Subject: Hmm, maybe two different issues here Message:

Well I'll admit I never quite made it all the way through 'Full House'... I think there are (at least) two issues, really: who is the more entertaining writer? - and who is right on the thereotical questions? I would concede that Dawkins wins on the first question, but I'm not so sure about the second.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 00:49:40 (EDT) From: bill Email: None To: nigel Subject: Hmm, maybe two different issues here Message:

Dawkins IS an interesting read. And I was able to catch his logics. I didn't have any luck yet with this smart but beyond me theorist. I wish he would make his thinking on -contingincies- accessable to me. Maybe it is the subjects I am about to bring up. Jerry asked me last year-I have to find the paper to quote the question exactly, I've been trying to be able to respond to it for a year, theres a lot to it, I don't know how to start off, I hope it isn't boring, Lots of angles, I don't know which one to pick first. I'll start tomorrow, feel free to blast away where you see cracks.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 18:34:38 (EDT) From: bill Email: None To: bill Subject: Hmm, Message:

Rather than do a scattershot of observations about life -human nature- and how they do or don't fit in the dna scheme, I'll take the time to pre-package it for the sake of the reader.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 06:13:06 (EDT) From: AJW Email: None To: Jim, Nigel Subject: Why is Sex Fun? Message:

Hi Jim and Nigel, I've not heard of Staphen Gould, or that other bloke, but someone who's writing on Evolution I really enjoy is Jared Diamond. As far as I know he's done three books, 'The Third Chimpanzee,' 'Why is Sex Fun?' (Not such a daft question, as other mammals have sex only to reproduce- females only engage when ovulating etc) and his latest book, 'Guns, Germs and Steel. A Brief History of the Last 13,000 years', which, as the title suggests, is more of a history book. He really hits a chord with me. Richard Leaky's written a couple of good books on the subject too. Anth the Paleontologist or Something.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 22:08:11 (EDT) From: nigel Email: nigel@redcrw.demon.co.uk To: Jim Subject: Well, he spells better than you, Jum Message:

and writes like an angel. I agree his comments last year about science and religion finding 'a loving concordat' were - for me - rather stomach-churning (as well as the idea that the religiously-oriented have something to teach), but Jim, please don't dismiss Gould outright. I think he has a deeper understanding of evolution as it actually happened than even Richard Dawkins (who I won't deny is also a great theorist and writer) and Dawkins' theoretical explanations of how natural selection works. I know they hate each others' guts - which is probably a good reason for you to side with Dawkins - but when it comes down to it, they share a common hero: Charles Darwin. At least read 'the Panda's Thumb' - an essay which even Dawkins praised to the heavens. Better still, read 'The Mismeasure of Man' - a book which does for psychometric testing what a humane vet should have done long ago. Gould was also the main witness in that court-case in the eighties which overturned the Reagan-approved banning of the teaching of evolution in schools. (Check out 'Bully for Brontasaurus' for some of the action) Unlike God, he is on our side...

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 22:19:01 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: nigel Subject: Nige, I've got a problem Message:

No, it's not that problem (thank God). Not yet, anyway. My problem is that I don't really like Gould's writing that much. We got this Gould book last year -- can't remember what it's called but it was his latest (something about Full House?) -- and I couldn't get into it. The writing didn't grab me at all. Not direct enough, I think was how I felt. But you think I should try again? I will. I'll read the Panda's Bum although I can't really see what's in it for me. (?) Nige, there's a swerious problem here though. A real serious problem in a certain light. The man who is, to many at least, evolution's greatest advocate and authority, offers a most unjustified and unhloy alliance with the church. Fuck him, I say. Plus, he's funny looking.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 23:05:16 (EDT) From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Jim Subject: We all know that... Message:

D'you know, Jim, all of my fave science writers have been trying a bit too hard lately. I mean Gould in 'Full House', Dawkins in 'Unweaving the Rainbow' and Steven Rose in 'Lifelines'. They've all gone flowery and poetic with long, meticulously editied sentences that seem to be written either to outdo one another in the literary stakes or to impress the arty-farties of this world. Dawkins at his best was 'The Extended Phenotype' and 'The Blind Watchmaker' - most of what he has done since seems to be re-treading old ground. Gould is best writing essays about evolution rather than full-lengthers - 'Bully for Brontasaurus' is my favourite. For anyone who likes well-constructed arguments with a killer punch or payoff line at the end check it out. Rose's 'The Making of Memory' is so fucking good you can even forgive him for snipping the heads off baby chickens with a large pair of kitchen scissors to examine their brains. Hmm, yeah, I'd prefer Gould would leave God out of it - but then again - I haven't heard you calling Martin Gardiner a jerk as yet...

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 03:48:05 (EDT) From: Mickey Moss Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Re: We all know that... Message:

Nigel: Hmm, yeah, I'd prefer Gould would leave God out of it - but then again - I haven't heard you calling Martin Gardiner a jerk as yet... Ah yes, Gardner Martin, the guy who designed the first bicycle that went over 65mph on a flat track: the Gold Rush. Uhh... that is what you guys are talking about isn't it? MM

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 23:23:56 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Okay, fair enough, but... Message:

Nige, Gardiner's completely clear on how much evidentiary support he has to believe in God: none. As he says, it just feels good. But you're right about Unweaving the Rainbow. I was disappointed a bit. Still Dawkins, still good, but not quite up to par. My main complaint? He disregards the personal hit believers get when they 'dialogue' with a higher consciousness. That, to me, is the big loss. Sure, I get off on the wonders of nature such as they really are and as science is showing them to us, but I miss the fantasy. I miss ... what was that giant rabbit's name again? You know, Jimmy Stewart's friend? I miss him and Dawkins ... was it Herbie? mm.. not Herbie? Harvey! Yeah, thatis it. I'm NOT losing my mind yet after all. Yeah, I miss Harvey a bit. Don't we all?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 09:55:51 (EDT) From: Gregg Email: None To: Jim Subject: How about E. O. Wilson Message:

I'm reading Wilson's book 'Consilience' now. The writing is good. The attempt to find principles common to the arts and Science yields interesting ideas. The book begins with a good history of science. What I don't like about it, Jim, you would like about it, I think: his refusal to believe that mystics have ever had insights into anything, and his absolute faith in the scientific method (and thus his condenscension for everything else, like post-modernism).

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 11:16:00 (EDT) From: Way Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: Gould Message:

Jim, here are my thoughts about the Gould quote that you paraphrased. Perhaps Gould is noticing that a universe described entirely by human science is devoid of ethics, and most people feel a need for ethics. I myself have noticed something along these lines, namely that morality does not exist in a universe without purpose. Jim, you give the impression that your world view is shaped entirely by science. I personally agree with you that 'religion' as we know it mostly fails, but perhaps Gould was not refering to the organized bull-shit aspect of religion. The point is that pure science alone leaves life inadequately understood and under-appreciated. Please do not propose a 'science of ethics' to complete the picture, because I'm proposing something here that may exist despite no material footprints available for some nerd to uncover. My own interest is not in a kind of morality or ethics that actually is no more than mere human, social convention that provides for semi-harmonious living conditions and which varies from culture to culture. My interest is rather in the direction that the universe points intself - is there something inherently good? (emphasis on inherent) Does that power that governs all physics and chemistry also govern human behavior? Can 'good' be defined as that which promotes the highest potential for consciousness? And is that 'good' the direction of all time, space and evolution? Maybe you would just poo-poo these questions, since no scientific discipline can ever answer them. But I am not satisfied with the description of the universe as the sterile, random, amoral, and circumscribed place that you seem to find so adequate. Maybe Gould isn't either, and maybe that was his point.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 14:54:30 (EDT) From: Mickey Moss Email: None To: Way Subject: Re: Gould Message:

Way: My own interest is not in a kind of morality or ethics that actually is no more than mere, human, social convention that provides for semi-harmonious living conditions and which varies from culture to culture. My interest is rather in the direction that the universe points intself - is there something inherently good? (emphasis on inherent) Does that power that governs all physics and chemistry also govern human behavior? Can 'good' be defined as that which promotes the highest potential for consciousness? And is that 'good' the direction of all time, space and evolution? This sounds really complicated. More complicated than calculus, in fact. It is also fraught with terms that demand their own specification. Fortunately I don't think we can, or need, concern ourselves with questions this universal. They smack of hubris. I don't see any reason to suppose that an ultimate good, if it exists, has all that much to do with me. For pertinent thoughts and reflections on the question of ethics in a world governed by science and art that are essentially devoid of an ethical structure, see Ralf Dahrendorf's 'Life Chances.' Personally, I think the invention of a bicycle that can go 65mph on level ground is pretty cool. It took about 60 years longer than crossing the Atlantic by air. -MM

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 16:28:34 (EDT) From: Way Email: None To: Mickey Moss Subject: Re: Gould Message:

MM- I agree with you that we need to be careful with the terminology. For instance, there is a subtle but important distinction between an 'inherent good' (my term) and an 'ultimate good' (your term). The former would pervade you from birth ala Jung's Collective Unconscious, while the later could indeed seem far off and not have 'all that much to do with me,' as you put it. I suggest to you that it is very close to home and not really too complicated - even babies know all about dragons and heroes - it's just in us! Don't you have a muse? However, I will not be able to argue the point further over the weekend. Are there any other exes out there who can help me out here? Or have you all abondoned, not only the guru, but the search as well? Come on, let's not let the scientist-types take over the whole site!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 19:36:59 (EDT) From: Mickey Moss Email: ickymickey@home.com To: Way Subject: Re: Gould Message:

Way: Re: there is a subtle but important distinction between an 'inherent good' (my term) and an 'ultimate good' (your term). The former would pervade you from birth ala Jung's Collective Unconscious, while the later could indeed seem far off and not have 'all that much to do with me,' as you put it. I suggest to you that it is very close to home and not really too complicated - even babies know all about dragons and heroes - it's just in us! Thanks for specifying something. The term 'inherent good' is still pretty vague. Personally I don't see a substantive distinction between a good that one need not, and perhaps cannot, examine or test... and one that is universal, applying under all conditions and times. If you are narrowing the meaning of 'inherent' (standing without need of support or proof) to human capacities and patterns of cognition then it sounds like what you're driving at is something like the 'lebensvelt' (lifeworld) concept. I should also point out that terms much more precise than 'inherent good' (and about which there is considerable agreement), such as 'self evident truths' and 'inalienable rights,' have run into trouble because they've proven less than 'inherent,' even within the human context. I appreciate the difficulty of making such a term credible so am willing to leave you latitude. Just don't go all 'psycho babble' on me. I don't have to exercise much precision to know what smells stale. Finally, I was recently told that Gardner Martin's 'Gold Rush' was pretty much a seat-of-the-pants operation. There was a lot more intuition than science involved in the design of the first human powered vehicle to exceed 65 mph on a flat course with no tailwind. It might be interesting, if you ever drop by the Smithsonian, to stop in and take a look at it. MM

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 19:58:38 (EDT) From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: All Subject: What a piece of work is premie-man Message:

(alternate title: read this, fuck-brain) Why did I bother to click on Nil's reply, when I knew what to expect? Perhaps it is my hyperactive imagination again - that strange and sometimes dangerous phenomenon of our mental lives that we are all prone to which would have me, for example, imagine a premie might admit to making unwarranted accusations and even express some regret; to imagine that a premie might, just for once, see through his Master's wisdom and recognise an accomplished story-teller with an impoverished intellect and crippled moral judgement pulling the strings; a premie who might yet admit that his Master has made unsustainable promises, indefensible claims and - let's face it - pretty stupid remarks during his earthly stint as the all-powerful one. That same imagination which once convinced me a child guru from an obscure bhak-ti-basics cult in the foothills of god-chose-where had arrived on planet earth to shatter the bonds of my mortality and deliver me to light everlasting. The imagination which informed me that, however cultlike it appeared to outsiders, Divine Light Mission was the means by which the Living Lord would bring Knowledge to mankind and thereby 'peace on earth in [his] lifetime'. The imagination which assured me all love was Maharaji's gift and the pain of this world but a consequence of my failure to be centred, and remain centred at all times; that to feel good inside but an acknowledgement of his gift and become indebted: that I should 'weep for a thousand years' if I grasped for a moment what the Master, out of infinite love and boundless mercy, had done for little ol' shit-faced me. The imagination which reframed his conspicuous striving for personal wealth as the humble acceptance of unsought gifts of love from his devotees. The imagination which readily understood that science did not know the half it; that the power to pass on power can indeed be transmitted down a sacred lineage of (time?)lords - just like Dr Who... The imagination which failed me when the rumour machine spoke of ill-temper, heavy drinking and drug abuse; and failed me again when Mishler provided corroboration. The imagination which saw reason to savour the instructions of the Master's hand-picked mahatmas when they warned us sternly that non-premie friends were an influence to be avoided; that my mind was the enemy within; that loved ones must be given lower priority in my life than the constant practice of satsang, service and meditation. The imagination which believed the Master could bring to any sphere of activity incomparable talent (even poetry); which accepted without question that he was a computer genuis; that saw ballet in a flat-foot's waddle. The imagination that detected Maharaji's plan unfolding behind me in every detail of my life, whether a lost job, a failed romance or a gut-wrenching bereavement. These were his lila, his divine game, another beautiful chance to surrender and place my head at his lotus fucking feet for the rest of eternity. I imagined Maharaji knew what he was talking about. And that, my friends, is all it takes to make an idiot out of any one of us. You included, Nil.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 01:35:48 (EDT) From: bill Email: None To: Nigel Subject: 'saw ballet in a flat foots waddle' Message:

Truly pearls before swine Nigel, Lucky for us we get to read your notes to Nil.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 05:24:57 (EDT) From: AJW Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Imagine Message:

Hi Nigel, And don't forget to imagine that God tastes like snot. Anth the Mucoid

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 22:40:59 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Nigel Subject: But what about the lessons of Narnia? Message:

Nigel, But just imagine. If there really was a WHOLE OTHER WORLD in the back of the closet would you want to be one of the bad, cynical kids who didn't believe and never got to go? Never got to hug the big, friendly lion and talk to the funny, little whatchamacallits?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 23:11:59 (EDT) From: nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Jim Subject: Re: But what about the lessons of Narnia? Message:

But just imagine. You said it all in three words.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 19:43:22 (EDT) From: Hihomumio Email: None To: URL Subject: See my post in The List thread... Message:

nt

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 07:05:49 (EDT) From: AJW Email: None To: Hihomumio Subject: URL Where are you? Message:

URL Why don't you answer Hihomimio's questions about Mahatma Jagpaedophile? Really URL, what do you think should be done about this pervert, using his position of authority in Maharaji's organisation to sexually abuse little girls? Do you think he should be allowed to carry on, with his private- one to one sessions- where he talks about 'knowledge' before he abuses them. What a fucking scumbag. And what a load of fucking scumbags to keep protecting this perverted, dirty little puss bag. Anth the Parent

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 09:46:50 (EDT) From: Hihomumio Email: None To: AJW Subject: Re: URL Where are you? Message:

Hi Anth-I wondered why he wasn't answering me too-seems he's had plenty to say about other posts. Well, I wouldn't want my post to roll down and disappear so I've done him a favor and brought it right to the top. And I just might have to do that a few more times if he continues to 'overlook' it!!!!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 15:16:33 (EDT) From: Roger E. Drudge Email: None To: All Subject: More bad news - The Poop on Jim OT Message:

URL has recently made some big news here on the Forum by showing the flaws of some Ex-Premies. I hate doing this, but it's probably a good idea to break this story now rather than let it slip out and further harm the credibility of the Forum. Jim Heller of Victoria, B.C. is a polluter of international waterways! Here's an excerpt of a story to back my claim: VICTORIA, B.C. -- Despite protests from the United States and a lawsuit filed by a labor union and environmental group, Victoria-area officials continue to dump millions of gallons of untreated sewage into the Strait of Juan de Fuca, saying the environmental impact is 'minimal.' In a report released this week, the Capital Regional District, an umbrella organization of local governments, said: 'Water quality at beaches in the vicinity of the outfalls is not adversely affected by the two outfalls.' Sewage discharges average more than 20 million gallons a day from the two release points. The report, issued on the eve of a meeting of U.S. and Canadian mayors, failed to quell calls for the British Columbia capital to treat its effluent before discharging it into the international waterway.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 20:51:33 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Roger E. Drudge Subject: That's not mine, well, not all of it anyway Message:

I don't know what to say. I'm having a moment here.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 23:31:12 (EDT) From: Marianne Email: None To: Roger Drek Subject: Is Jim a Victoria area official? Message:

Roger: Thank you for this important piece of information in the international corporate puzzle we are trying to unravel. Do you know if Jim Heller is a Victoria area official? Is he on the waste-water board? Do you know what the functional equivalent might be in Victoria, or even just in B.C.? I can probably dig up most of this information by getting Jim's Canadian bar admission records on line. And, if we're really lucky, some environmental organization may have sued him in his official capacity. That means there might be a public court file full of information about Jim, just like this confidence shattering expose! Thank you so much for posting this. Perhaps there's some connection between the waste water dumping and M's satellite dishes! Stay tuned for breaking developments! I'll send you my really secret suppositions by email. Marianne

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Aug 25, 1999 at 00:04:43 (EDT) From: Mickey Moss Email: ickymickey@home.com To: Marianne Subject: Re: Is Jim a Victoria area official? Message:

Marianne: Stay tuned for breaking developments! I'll send you my really secret suppositions by email. If I'm not mistaken it is illegal to send suppositories by mail in Canada, even by email. Canadian kids think they're candy. --MM

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 00:17:35 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Oh no! They're going to get into the X-Flies! Message:

Marianne, Please, please, leave well enough alone. This shit doesn't concern you.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 00:47:15 (EDT) From: Marianne Email: None To: Jim Subject: Now I know why XFiles is filmed in BC! Message:

- your secret is safe with me! Right, Roger? Marianne

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 15:04:16 (EDT) From: RT the Prepared Ex Email: Omm on the range To: All Premies & Exers Subject: OT-NAVY: cities at risk/Y2K Message:

Cities at Risk DO YOU LIVE HERE? 43 cities in bad shape: electric/Gas?Water/Sewer http://www.jimlord.to/CitiesatRisk.cfm The information presented below is based on a US Navy/Marine Corps survey dated June 1999. The survey was conducted to determine the risk of utility failures at military facilities worldwide. Only United States information is shown. Each of the three tables below shows a list of cities and the Y2K exposure of the major utilities in each city. The columns labeled E, W, G and S refer to the Electrical, Water, Gas and Sewer utili-ties. An 'x' in the column indicates that utility is expected to fail. To view expanded information on each city including the names of specific utilities, visit www.JimLord.to on the web. Three levels of possible failure are indicated in the Navy document. Each table in this summary lists one of these levels. 1) Partial failure is probable. 2) Partial failure is likely. 3) Total failure is likely. The terms 'probable,' 'likely,' 'partial,' and 'total' are Navy terminology and were not clearly defined in the documentation. The terms 'likely' and 'total' however, represent the worst condition.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 09:18:17 (EDT) From: AJW Email: None To: RT the Prepared Ex Subject: Y2K Too Late Mate Message:

RT, (reminds me of a song) In London the basic services have been fucked since the Romans left, about 1600 years ago. When society collapses everywhere else we won't even notice, in fact we'll be gland to be back on a level playing field, as we say in Saf Landan. Anth the Apocalyptic

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 21:26:26 (EDT) From: bill Email: None To: RT the Prepared Ex Subject: NAVY: cities at risk/Y2K Message:

Hi there RT, As you know, I'm sitting in a 'total failure of water and sewage' area. Nice. And you are close to new london, THEY are slated to have NONE of the four catagories elec, gas, water, sewage. NYC with 7,373,000 people-and they are to do without water?-I have a sister and her boyfriend is in the national gaurd and he said washington dc would take the whole division that he is in to cover. Problem is, the whole division is the one that covers the whole north east. He said they are doing exercises that dont make sense unless they are practicing for martial law. Which he and his guys are of the opinion that that is comeing. He said they are to gaurd atm's. And other bank and government buildings. He said they have plans to have locations to hold lots of arrest and detainment cases. I saw the report today before I saw your post. Seems real enough. I have some info on french nukes that I was waiting to post to J.M. I have already prepared for water and sewage. I figure why take chances. Life is hard enough without having contingincies in place for y2k and then trying to pull it together. I HAD called the local water company and lied and said that I was from the AWWA and what is thier status. The head guy told me they had started in 98 and they had not finished assesment as of November when I made the call. Also, he said they had fixed nothing as of yet. I guess the Navy is of the strong opinion-having said TOTAl failure, of the efforts of the local water company MDC. Great.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 08:52:25 (EDT) From: RT Email: omm To: bill Subject: Re: NAVY: cities at risk/Y2K Message:

Hi Bill, -- Say how much to rent a portolet? This from G.North Aug 4th. Better stock up BIG time on food for your family. Category: Martial_Law Date: 1999-08-04 06:51:00 Subject: Florida National Guard Spokesman Specifies the Threats: Power Failures and Panic Link: http://www.ngaus.org/ngmag/main199.htm Comment: The National Guard cannot prepare for every contingency. This article indicates that the Guard's spokesman reflect the same sort of wide variations of opinion regarding y2k as other y2k analysts do. Some think it will be bad. Others invoke the winter storm analogy -- although in Wisconsin, a winter storm can kill people. One spokesman says that people should get ready early. This was last January. There are no indications that this advice has been heeded. This is from the NATIONAL GUARD MAGAZINE (January). * * * * * * * * * * * With only 12 months now left to prepare, the National Guard's Y2K focus involves more than combat readiness. If the computer bug interrupts critical services, local authorities will need help. Maybe lots of help. . . . Electricity. Oil and gas lines. Water and sewer systems. Telecommunications. Airlines, trains and transit systems. Agriculture equipment. Emergency-support vehicles. Medical equipment. Alarms. Smoke detectors. Automatic locks. Traffic lights. Banking systems. Public records. All have the potential to go haywire after the stroke of midnight on Jan. 1, 2000. And just like with other disasters, citizen soldiers and airmen are being looked at as the first line of defense. Only this time they don't know exactly what to prepare for. 'There are so many things to look at that. Potentially, we could have a calamity over this,' said John Myatt, a Florida National Guard spokesman. The federal and state governments have formed groups to study their own problems and gather information to determine how industries, businesses and municipalities are dealing with the issue so they can develop contingency plans. But the problem is too broad to monitor everyone and some are reluctant to provide information for fear of liability lawsuits if they do not live up to their claims. So what's the Guard to do? 'We're going to plan for the worst-case scenario: no power and lots of panic,' Myatt said. . . . garynorth

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 15:30:03 (EDT) From: barney Email: None To: RT the Prepared Ex Subject: No sweat - just remember Holy Name! Message:

RT, Your post is another sign that you are no longer following and trusting in the Master of our time. Surely, remembering Holy Name and practicing the Nectar technique would get you through any calamity, but no... However, the rumors on the streets indicate that the Master plans to hunker down in the Malibu Marble Palace for the month before and after the new year. Much preparation has taken place to ensure that Maharaji will be minimally inconvenienced in the event of any Y2K problems. The residence is equipped with two Cummins diesel generators capable of producing 50,000 watts each. Underground fuel tanks and waters tanks are in place. A large cache of food has been readied. Efforts have also been made to ensure that the premies will be taken care of by purchasing portable Honda generators for the local video events. Elaborate planning has also ensured that premies will still be able to show their gratitude by purchasing gold coins through their local community. A courier network has been established to deliver the gold to Maharaji.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 13:35:45 (EDT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: All Subject: The Radiance of K! Message:

In response to some of the stuff I've read yesterday and today, reg the way k is taught in India, here is some satsang to ponder about: The Radiance of knowledge Politics and its inadequacy I find so many people trying to understand the intricacies of politics. But which country has been able to solve its problems through politics? What was done there by whom, and what sort of solution was possible through politics? You just tell me the name of one country where this politics is working smoothly. There is none. It can't work. It is a sort of an attempt made by some people. And it was a sort of philosophy. Under the first political system, the World-War first was fought. And then the second World-War came. After all there should be some track record of them. You have to look at the past history to visualize how much struggle and strife there has been in the past. But in spite of all that, people are busy in following politics. Why is it so? Because it does not come from the heart. Also including that famous one J Cainer loves so much : Just see, today this word 'guru' has become a ridiculous term, a sort of a joke and people do not know what is a 'guru'. When I fly a plane in India, I often listen to the radio in the cock-pit. There are talks going on between various pilots in the vicinity. Somebody would address: 'Well guru, how are you?' Because they do not know the true meaning and implications. They don't understand the glory of a guru and Master. Because they have forgotten altogether. They have made such pseudo-guru who have put the whole system to disrepute. For instance, in schools they don't know the correct meaning of a couplet like: The radiance radiated from my beloved is of such an amazing hue ... They say, 'Oh yes, because Kabir saw a sort of redness...' But what sort of redness was it? Such so-called gurus have marred the reputation of this institution. It has been ruined. Actually the guru is such a personality about whom it is said: I bow down to the lotusfeet of my Guru Maharaji who is the ocean of mercy and is actually Hari (God) himself in human form. And whose words are like sunbeams to disperse the accumulated darkness of gross ignorance. So Tulsidas says that he bows down to such a Guru Maharaji, the Master, who is really Hari (Supreme Power) in the form of man. So the main thing to understand here is that he bows down to the feet of that guru whose utterances, whose expressions are able to illuminate. And what is that which is illuminated by his words? It is the heart which is illuminated. His words are able to sever and dispel the spidery web of illusion, infatuation and ignorance. This I have seen myself and realized in my own heart. Yes, in my own heart! .......... So there can be no accord between politics and Knowledge. And this has to be borne in mind by everyone of us that if you want to have fulfillment in this life then you should begin with this Knowledge. You should be more particular about attaining the supreme happiness for your ownself and not too much concerned about your family, about the welfare of your family. JSCA

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 16:15:06 (EDT) From: barney Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Premie Politics Message:

Maharaji is so full of shit! How easy it is to be a simpleton and freely criticize everything and everyone. So, Maharaji, you've got the answer and the answer is from the heart? Yup, your organizations have certainly been the example we've all been looking for. He said this? Under the first political system, the World-War first was fought. And then the second World-War came. After all there should be some track record of them. You have to look at the past history to visualize how much struggle and strife there has been in the past. But in spite of all that, people are busy in following politics. Why is it so? Because it does not come from the heart. First, what the hell is the first political system? Maybe I'm not educated enough to understand this. Also, it would appear that Maharaji would be inclined to abandon existing political systems and go back to a very simple system of autocracy, monarchy, fiefdoms. And then there's this: After all there should be some track record of them...look at the past history . Does he mean that one should not forget the past? One should learn lessons from the past? Oh boy! I guess that learning from the past does not apply to His Organization. Like there's no politics in His Organization. It's all Lovey-Dovey! Then it would only be fair to defend Maharaji by saying that it wasn't His fault. No, it was all those bongo and rogue premies who were in their minds. How convenient to have a scapegoat for all of your mistakes.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 16:36:37 (EDT) From: Ben Lurking Email: None To: barney Subject: Re: Premie Politics Message:

Barney -your problem is you are operating in hysteria - he said this many years ago, to not project your expectations on him, and why would you expect him to learn history in school. why would he need to learn that? I will try and educate you on political systems the first was man alone - what ever he did was the rule then came tribes with leaders, tribes banded into larger groups, gods started to appear (Zeus, Thor etc) kings started to be gods, eventually man tired of kings and gods and their persecution of man and man started political systems. One failing sytem replaced another - the only system that will truly be always fair to all is a benevolant dictator - thats what I was tuaght in poli sci. (which is why I can't spell). It just frustrates me to no end that you expect the lord of the universe to mean what he says and for it to stand the test of time get real its an evolving, always get contributions lord.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 13:39:31 (EDT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: M's trainings in Montreal! Message:

I guess the BM goofed in this one, when he says he's having his pilot's trainings in Montreal .... read carefully!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 16:42:03 (EDT) From: Montreal Ex Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Montreal it was! Message:

No goof JM, thats where m got his training for either his first or second(the one he purchased brand new and stripped) Challenger, in October of 1990. I remember it very well, as when the training was complete, m made a surprise visit to our 'hall' (which no longer exists), and bragged how he had completed the month course in less than two weeks...I also remember the references to the bhajans mentioned in the satsang you've reproduced. Of course this 'surprise' visit wasn't really much of a surprise, except for the plebeian premies(who form the vast majority of course). The 'elite' from surrounding communities had been tipped off that m would be speaking in the Montreal hall that evening, and there was a whole bunch of them there from out of town. I also remember a reference m made to Air Canada workers who were losing their jobs and complaining that promises made to them by management had been broken. To that m posed the question, 'But what promises did they make to THEMSELVES, and what promises have YOU made to YOURSELF?' Two weeks later, I remember losing my own job where I was then working, and I remember feeling sooo grateful to my all, so compassionate Maharaji, who made his surprise visit to the Montreal premies, just so he could help prepare me for the job I was about to lose. Now....is that a master for you or what?!!:):):)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 11:53:11 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: All Subject: Funny, OT, Canadian, feminist.... Message:

Wascally wabbit cleared of wongdoing Jonathon Gatehouse National Post Wascally. Out of step with the times. Maybe even hare-brained. But one thing is certain, Bugs Bunny is not 'anti-woman,' says the Canadian Broadcast Standards Council. In a decision released yesterday, the private radio and television watchdog officially cleared the cartoon character of charges that he violated the industry's Sex-Role Portrayal Code by making 'negative or degrading comments on the role and nature of women.' A Toronto viewer had filed a formal complaint with the council following the broadcast of an episode of The Bugs Bunny and Tweety Show on the Global Television Network in July, 1998. The woman objected to a comic retelling of the Hansel and Gretel fairy tale in which Bugs foils the wicked witch's plans to cook the children for dinner and finds himself on the menu as a replacement dish. At the end of the short cartoon, the rabbit uses a bag of magic powder to transform the grizzled crone into a voluptuous female bunny. As the smitten pair walk off into the sunset, Bugs turns to the camera, shrugs, and says: 'Ah sure, I know! But aren't they all witches inside?' The viewer argued that the throwaway line was offensive because it implied 'that all females are evil and destructive' and gave 'a wrong idea of women' to impressionable children. Such misogynistic attitudes have no place in children's programming, she added, requesting that Global be made to read a public apology for the episode during its national newscast. The Ontario chapter of the council met last February to view the episode and concluded the classic cartoon did not breach industry standards. 'There is an undeniable innuendo in the closing line ... which some may find offensive,' the council wrote in its decision. '[But] it is, if anything, contradicted by every other aspect of the program. It cannot, in fact, even be seen as a serious comment in the sense that the line is uttered in the context of a happy couple walking off arm-in-arm.' Charlotte Bell, Global's director of regulatory affairs, said the network takes all public complaints seriously, but was pleased to see Bugs Bunny and his cartoon friends exonerated. 'We're happy with the decision,' she said. 'That's all folks.'

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 15:16:12 (EDT) From: Robyn Email: None To: Jim Subject: funny you should mention that! Message:

Here is today's joke of the day, a list server I am on, ah, the timing :): Young King Arthur was ambushed and imprisoned by the monarch of a neighboring kingdom. The monarch could have killed him, but was moved by Arthur's youthful happiness.  So he offered him freedom, as long as he could answer a  very difficult question.  Arthur would have a year to figure out the answer; if, after a year, he still had no answer, he would be killed. The question was:  What do women really want? Such a question would perplex even the most knowledgeable man, and, to young Arthur, it seemed an impossible query. Well, since it was better than death, he accepted the monarch's proposition to have an answer by year's end.  He returned to his  kingdom and began to poll everybody: the princess, the prostitutes, the priests, the wise men, the court jester. In all, he spoke with everyone but no one could give him a satisfactory answer. What most people did tell him was to consult the old witch, as only she would know the answer.  The price would be high, since the witch was famous throughout the kingdom for the exhorbitant prices she charged.  The last day of the year arrived and Arthur had no alternative but to talk to the witch.  She agreed to answer his question, but he'd have to accept her price first: The old witch wanted to marry Gawain, the most noble of the Knights of the Round Table and Arthur's closest friend!  Young Arthur was horrified: she was hunchbacked and awfully hideous,  had only one tooth, smelled like sewage water, often made obscene noises... He had never run across such a repugnant creature.  He refused to force his friend to marry her and have to endure such a burden. Gawain, upon learning of the proposal, spoke with Arthur. He told him that nothing was too big of a sacrifice compared to Arthur's life and the preservation of the Round Table. Hence, their wedding was proclaimed, and the witch answered Arthur's question: What a woman really wants is to be able to be in charge of her own life. Everyone instantly knew that the witch had uttered a great truth and that Arthur's life would be spared.  And so it went.  The neighboring monarch spared Arthur's life and granted him total freedom. What a wedding Gawain and the witch had!  Arthur was torn between relief and anguish.  Gawain was proper as always, gentle and courteous.  The old witch put her worst manners on display.  She ate with her hands, belched and farted, and made everyone uncomfortable. The wedding night approached:  Gawain, steeling himself for a horrific night, entered the bedroom.  What a sight awaited!  The most beautiful woman he'd ever seen lay before him!  Gawain was astounded and asked what had happened. The beauty replied that since he had been so kind to her (when she'd been a witch), half the time she would be her horrible, deformed self, and the other half, she would be her beautiful maiden self. Which would he want her to be during the day and which during the night? What a cruel question?  Gawain began to think of his predicament: During the day a beautiful woman to show off to his friend, but at night, in the privacy of his home, an old spooky witch?  Or would he prefer having by day a hideous witch, but by night a beautiful woman to enjoy many intimate moments? What would you do? What Gawain chose follows below, but don't read until you've made your own choice. Noble Gawain replied that he would let her choose for herself. Upon hearing this, she announced that she would be beautiful all the time, because he had respected her and had let her be in charge of her own life. What is the moral of this story? THE MORAL IS THAT IT DOESN'T MATTER IF YOUR WOMAN IS PRETTY OR UGLY, SMART OR DUMB.  UNDERNEATH IT ALL, SHE'S STILL A WITCH!!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 15:10:10 (EDT) From: AJBaaaaaah Email: None To: Jim Subject: Animals Are Human Too Message:

Jim, I'm surprised how low the political consciousness in over the water. Bugs Bunny was banned along with Tom and Jerry years ago over here, due to insights given to us by the Animal Liberation movement. I won't go into the details, but take it from me comrade, cartoons degrade animals. As I mentioned in a previous post, since working on the farm I've developed a new relationship with lots of my furry friends, and they have feelings and emotions too Jim, just like us. There's this sheep called... Any way I've got some lovely pics if you're interested. Anth the Animal Lover.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 13:49:17 (EDT) From: Marianne Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: Funny, OT, Canadian, feminist.... Message:

Oh, leave it to you Jim to be an apologist for sexually offensive platitudes being ingrained in unsuspecting children! Don't you know that cartoons are the greatest threat to the development of a truly egalitarian society? If only cartoons were shown of Guru Maharaj Ji and his wonderful family and followers! Then there would truly be peace on earth!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 11:45:17 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: All Subject: And how about the PREMIE myths? Message:

In a thread below Anth describes how he, like other PAMs, was able to weave gossamer marvels about Maharaji out of what, in hindsight, was just common wool. Great story, that one. But then looking at ELK today I'm reminded of the way we crafted little mini-myths about ourselves. Ah yes, 'I would have DIED. Certainly, I would have died in the next TEN MINUTES if that brother hadn't given me that pamphlet....' or, like this precious and apparently now-poorly educated sister below suggests, 'I was THE Sincere Seeker! I read almost half of Herman Hesse's entire ouvre, not to mention the entire Narnia series.....'. Embarrassing, isn't it? Janice Wilson The best book Janice from Baldwinsville, New York, remembers her school and college days and the search for a book that would yield the truth... I was born in 1953 and grew up in a small town, Caroline, in the Appalachian foothills near Ithaca, New York, which is famous for being home to Cornell University. I loved reading books and as a kid in first grade I won the prize for reading the most books, 70-something. I remember as a teenager I would go into Ithaca the big city, actually a small city, to these book stores where college students went. And it seemed like, if I could just read all these books or find the right books, I could find out the secrets of life . When in college taking philosophy, I remember thinking, being told maybe, that I should go to Yale University and learn Sanskrit and then I could find out the 'Truth'. Then in 1973 I heard of a young man from India, Maharaji. I began to understand that what the books were merely talking about, he could make real for me. At that point in my life I was about to start taking Indian philosophy at another university. In June 1974 I went off to Denver, Colorado, from Carbondale, Illinois, to receive Maharaji's gift of Knowledge. Ever since I have been learning to read the book of my heart. Discovering the joy, contentment, love, and wonders it contains. How amazing, how incredible, I am eternally grateful to Maharaji for his gift of the Knowledge of all knowledges, and hope to continue to read the best book of all, the book of my heart, until I draw my last breath!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 13:02:36 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: And how about the PREMIE myths? Message:

That's pretty funny. One book she missed was a geography book. The city of her birth, near Ithaca, NY, is close to the south shore of Cayuga Lake, one of the Finger Lakes. The Appalachian mountains, as commonly referred to, are some 350 miles south in south central Pennsylvania. Of course, the whole "" Appalachian System"" extends from the Gaspe Peninsula in Canada to Alabama and it's the oldest one in the world. It's a bit of a stretch to put herself in the ''foothills of the Appalachians.'' But then their whole lives require that 'stretch' doesn't it? I wonder how many books she's read since receiving the ''knowledge of knowledges?''

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 16:41:26 (EDT) From: Ben Lurking Email: None To: gerry Subject: Re: And how about the PREMIE myths? Message:

Looks like she learned geography where M learned world history - the short abridged version, readily changable to your needs and wants.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 14:09:13 (EDT) From: Marianne Email: None To: gerry Subject: Geography Message:

She's closer to the Adirondacks than the Appalachians.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 08:47:27 (EDT) From: Robyn Email: None To: All Subject: OT, David Blain street magician Message:

I highly recommend this special, different from the one I caught last week. On for those who get it on ABC at 9pm. If you see it I'd love to hear what you think. Love, Robyn

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 14:34:58 (EDT) From: Paul Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Re: OT, David Blain street magician Message:

Robyn, I thought the special was great. Makes you realize how little is needed to perform real magic. I'd rather see Blains card tricks any day than see Copperfield use his smoke and mirrors and fake camera angles to make buildings 'dissapear.' Probably a lesson in here about gurus as well. Paul

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 15:11:09 (EDT) From: Robyn Email: None To: Paul Subject: Re: OT, David Blain street magician Message:

Dear Paul, I am so glad someone else has seen this man work. Amazing!!! Much better than making the Statue of Liberty dissapear! You'll have to fill me in on the guru lesson though! :) Let me guess: There is magic out there but it is in the simple things. The BIG SHOW is more spectacular but not much substance once the techs go home and the cameras are put away. Love, Robyn

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 17:28:00 (EDT) From: Paul Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Re: OT, David Blain street magician Message:

Robyn, Well said! It also seemed to me that Blaine is able to remove the focus from himself as 'the great magician,' and act to let people get in touch with the simple fun and joy of participating in the process. The big M, like Copperifeld, portrays himself as beyond mere mortals, and does his 'magic' in a way in which there is no real relationship, no real connection-other than the expected and ultimately empty, awe and devotion. Paul

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 06:07:47 (EDT) From: Robyn Email: None To: Paul Subject: Re: OT, David Blain street magician Message:

Dear Paul, Did you see it! He is something isn't he! Can't even think of anything he did now but in the last one when he flicked the cigeratte ash into his palm and rubbed it in and then had the girl squeeze her fist and the puffed up ash ended up in her palm... Oh, one of my favorites from last night, simple but undeniable, when he takes a piece of string and swallows it only to then pull it ouf of the waist band of his underware! :) Oh, and bringing that fly back to life! I could have done without the chicken though. This may be lost on you but I also think he is very sensous. :) Love, Robyn

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 09:17:39 (EDT) From: Paul Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Re: OT, David Blain street magician Message:

Robyn, I caught last night's show. My wife is convinced, and I'm almost ready to agree, that it is real magic and he has special powers--like how did he get the card in the cops shoe? Regards, Paul

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 09:24:14 (EDT) From: Robyn Email: None To: Paul Subject: Re: OT, David Blain street magician Message:

Dear Paul, Yes, I forgot that one! Really! He did say to that Hatian boy who asked if he could get inside his head that it was not what he thought. It is hard not to believe it is real magic isn't it. I keep trying to stop myself short of that conclusion though, been reading this page for to long for that! Love, Robyn, Bohle Shri Sat Guru Dev David Blaine... ;)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 10:18:38 (EDT) From: Way Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Re: OT, David Blain street magician Message:

I caught part of the show last night while passing through channels. How about the times he asked people to think of a special person and that person's name ended up written on his body somewhere or on a passing taxi???? These had to be either set-ups or telepathy. Or when he asked a person to think of a number and he just proceeded to say the number??? - one case was 68 and another case was 333. The 68 example could have been similar to the gray elephant in Denmark trick that made its rounds on the Internet a couple years ago. But the 333 example???

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 12:23:46 (EDT) From: Robyn Email: None To: Way Subject: Re: OT, David Blain street magician Message:

Hi Way, Once he aked a little girl to guess the number he thought of which he wrote down. She got it! I thought that was cool. I see Jerry below so he is telling you about the car thing and if he doesn't put the link to Blaine's site I copied it and will add it below, bet he did include it though. :) He does say repeatedly in both specials that he is an entertainer though so he is making no claims to creating real magic. Still it is amazing. Love, Robyn

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 12:17:35 (EDT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Way Subject: Blaine is a magician Message:

Robyn, Paul, and Way, You guys are talking as if Blaine has some special powers when all he claims to be is a magician. How he does it, only those who have learned the same tricks can say. But because it's inconceivable to us how he does it, I don't think is grounds for giving him powers that are paranormal. I think Blaine should be congratulated for being honest about his abilities. There are others who are only too happy to make you think they really do have paranormal abilities. Amazingly, even when somebody says he doesn't, people are still wondering if he does. That's a damn good magician if he can have THAT effect on people.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 12:27:28 (EDT) From: Robyn Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Re: Blaine is a magician Message:

Dear Jerry, You are right, I just posted that he says repeatedly he is an entertainer. Way, Jerry wrote on Sir's forum that he thought the name guess and the name being on the taxi was a bit much. I couldn't see that with my countrybumpkin TV reception! Here is the like to Blaine's site: http://www.trickshop.com/blaine.html well it isn't a link is it but you can copy/paste it. :) Love, Robyn

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 13:11:23 (EDT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Re: Blaine is a magician Message:

Robyn, I take back what I said about Blaine being bullshit. After reading up on him and learning more about him, I think he probably is on the level, AS A MAGICIAN, not as anything more than that. At least, that's all he says he his. Who knows? Maybe he's really Jesus Christ. What's fatboy going to do now that the real Lord Of The Universe has come?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 14:31:29 (EDT) From: Robyn Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Re: Blaine is a magician Message:

Dear Jerry, I just keep thinking wouldn't Blaine get a kick out of our little discussion here! :) I guess fatboy would have to get his toe suckers puckered! :) Love, Robyn

Return to Index -:- Top of Index