Forum IV: The Ex-Premie Forum
Archive: 1
From: Wed, Aug 18, 1999 To: Fri, Sep 03, 1999 Page: 2 Of: 5


Jerry -:- Maharaji and luxury -:- Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 09:16:45 (EDT)
__ an old friend -:- Re: Maharaji and luxury -:- Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 16:54:48 (EDT)
__ __ Jerry -:- Some more comments -:- Tues, Aug 24, 1999 at 09:00:52 (EDT)
__ __ Jerry -:- Verbatim -:- Tues, Aug 24, 1999 at 07:02:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- Re: Verbatim -:- Tues, Aug 24, 1999 at 14:09:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Re: Verbatim -:- Tues, Aug 24, 1999 at 14:50:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- Re: Verbatim -:- Tues, Aug 24, 1999 at 22:31:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Re: Verbatim -:- Wed, Aug 25, 1999 at 05:26:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- Opps -:- Wed, Aug 25, 1999 at 07:51:17 (EDT)
__ __ biff -:- Re: Maharaji and luxury -:- Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 18:31:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ VP -:- Money isn't the only issue -:- Thurs, Aug 26, 1999 at 08:22:14 (EDT)
__ __ __ JHB -:- Re: Maharaji and luxury -:- Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 18:46:01 (EDT)
__ __ JHB -:- Re: Maharaji and luxury -:- Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 18:24:47 (EDT)

bill -:- following maharaj ji's lead.(Gail) -:- Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 00:18:04 (EDT)
__ Diz -:- Re: following maharaj ji's lead.(Gail) -:- Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 20:35:41 (EDT)
__ __ bill -:- threadmates -:- Tues, Aug 24, 1999 at 01:35:07 (EDT)
__ Paul -:- Promise keepers -:- Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 11:23:12 (EDT)
__ __ bill -:- I agree -:- Thurs, Aug 26, 1999 at 13:34:50 (EDT)
__ VP -:- Dilemma -:- Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 11:16:33 (EDT)
__ Jerry -:- Ex-Dawkins forum -:- Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 09:56:25 (EDT)

CultbusterUK -:- Glen's Legal Muscle -:- Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 16:56:12 (EDT)
__ Sir Dave -:- I was there -:- Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 20:45:29 (EDT)
__ Marianne -:- Or lack of legal muscle, isn't it? -:- Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 17:15:59 (EDT)

JHB -:- Darshan Income -:- Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 19:53:18 (EDT)
__ VP -:- Gift tax -:- Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 12:10:38 (EDT)
__ Catweasel -:- Re: Darshan Income -:- Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 05:49:45 (EDT)
__ __ Know It All -:- Re: Statute of Limitations -:- Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 13:30:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Rob -:- Re: Statute of Limitations -:- Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 00:27:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Catweasel -:- Re:Rob is the Statue of Limitations -:- Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 04:55:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Makes my heart warm....... -:- Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 14:05:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- I'll try again... Makes my heart warm....... -:- Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 14:07:34 (EDT)
__ __ __ A Premie -:- Re: Statute of Limitations -:- Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 16:28:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Mickey Moss -:- Re: Statute of Limitations -:- Wed, Aug 25, 1999 at 01:06:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Know It All -:- Jai Satchitanand, a Premie! -:- Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 17:11:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ A Premie -:- Re: Jai Satchitanand, a Premie! -:- Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 20:47:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Mickey Moss -:- Re: Jai Satchitanand, a Premie! -:- Wed, Aug 25, 1999 at 01:15:34 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Liz -:- Re: Jai Satchitanand, a Premie! -:- Mon, Aug 30, 1999 at 13:10:15 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Premie Ji -:- why, of course! -:- Wed, Aug 25, 1999 at 11:28:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- Very soon = $/years? Y2K? -:- Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 22:21:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ A Premie -:- In the clouds with power & glory -:- Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 13:10:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mickey Moss -:- Re: In the clouds with power & glory -:- Wed, Aug 25, 1999 at 01:26:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Loud Shirt -:- Re: In the clouds with power & glory -:- Tues, Aug 24, 1999 at 22:32:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Is this the day...? -:- Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 16:06:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- Re: Is this the day...? -:- Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 16:14:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- Re: In the clouds with power & glory -:- Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 13:21:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ Taxman -:- Re: No Statute of Limitations on Tax evasion -:- Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 14:39:51 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Know It All -:- I disagree -:- Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 15:26:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Taxman -:- Re: I disagree - You might be correct (nt) -:- Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 15:37:15 (EDT)
__ __ AJW -:- Re: Darshan Income -:- Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 06:21:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- You're wrong there -:- Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 07:47:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Re: You're wrong there -:- Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 14:29:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ Catweasel -:- Re: Fantasy Land -:- Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 06:58:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Read on Brother -:- Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 14:33:10 (EDT)
__ AJW -:- Re: Darshan Income -:- Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 05:22:31 (EDT)
__ __ Liz -:- Peter Robin Hood Potter -:- Mon, Aug 30, 1999 at 13:25:40 (EDT)
__ __ AJW -:- Main Jer? -:- Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 05:24:48 (EDT)
__ Marianne -:- Re: Darshan Income -:- Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 20:09:44 (EDT)
__ __ Rob -:- Re: Darshan Income -:- Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 00:36:27 (EDT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Actually, you're correct -:- Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 07:54:15 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- Re: Darshan Income -:- Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 19:52:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Catweasel -:- Re: Darshan Income -:- Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 04:58:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ The Ultimate Carnivore -:- Rat Weasel, you're so full of yourself -:- Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 14:49:14 (EDT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- Re: Darshan Income -:- Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 21:55:50 (EDT)

Hihomumio -:- C'mon URL-don't weasel out of this -:- Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 09:33:47 (EDT)
__ Mel Bourne -:- A premie comment... -:- Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 15:53:20 (EDT)
__ __ AJW -:- Anth's Jagdeo Smear Campaign -:- Thurs, Aug 26, 1999 at 06:10:23 (EDT)
__ __ __ Hihomumio -:- Re: Anth's Jagdeo Smear Campaign -:- Fri, Aug 27, 1999 at 22:02:25 (EDT)
__ __ Hihomumio -:- Re: A premie comment... -:- Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 21:02:17 (EDT)
__ __ g's mom -:- Re: A premie comment... -:- Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 18:38:35 (EDT)
__ __ __ Liz -:- Re: A premie comment... -:- Fri, Sep 03, 1999 at 00:58:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ Hihomumio -:- Re: A premie comment... -:- Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 21:10:42 (EDT)
__ An ocassional oberver -:- Re: C'mon URL-don't weasel out of this -:- Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 10:18:24 (EDT)
__ __ Hihomumio -:- Re: C'mon URL-don't weasel out of this -:- Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 10:49:03 (EDT)
__ __ __ An Occassional Observer -:- Re: C'mon URL-don't weasel out of this -:- Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 11:16:14 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Hihomumio -:- Re: C'mon URL-don't weasel out of this -:- Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 13:01:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ An Occassional Observer -:- Re: C'mon URL-don't weasel out of this -:- Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 14:43:05 (EDT)

People's Poet -:- Go Back to Your Homes -:- Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 09:20:14 (EDT)
__ Sir Dave -:- And prepare for government! -:- Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 04:53:29 (EDT)

Seymour -:- Dawkins - a bit of an animal -:- Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 08:09:12 (EDT)
__ Jerry -:- But a highly evolved one -:- Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 08:41:22 (EDT)
__ __ Way -:- Re: But a highly evolved one -:- Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 12:00:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- Smug little me -:- Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 14:04:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Way -:- Re: Smug little me -:- Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 17:27:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Re: Smug little me -:- Tues, Aug 24, 1999 at 11:04:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Way -:- Re: Smug little me -:- Tues, Aug 24, 1999 at 11:34:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Self-transcendence -:- Wed, Aug 25, 1999 at 06:19:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Way -:- Re: Self-transcendence -:- Wed, Aug 25, 1999 at 11:23:15 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Re: Self-transcendence -:- Wed, Aug 25, 1999 at 20:18:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Way -:- Re: Self-transcendence -:- Thurs, Aug 26, 1999 at 12:15:04 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Re: Self-transcendence -:- Thurs, Aug 26, 1999 at 12:56:28 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Re: Self-transcendence -:- Wed, Aug 25, 1999 at 16:04:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Way -:- Re: Self-transcendence -:- Wed, Aug 25, 1999 at 17:55:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Ever heard of paragraphs? -:- Wed, Aug 25, 1999 at 21:06:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Letting go of old concepts -:- Thurs, Aug 26, 1999 at 10:58:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Talk about ego! -:- Tues, Aug 24, 1999 at 12:01:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Spiritual bullying? -- makes me remember the good ol' days -:- Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 22:06:31 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Way -:- Re: Spiritual bullying? -- makes me remember the good ol' days -:- Tues, Aug 24, 1999 at 11:08:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Re: Spiritual bullying? -- makes me remember the good ol' days -:- Tues, Aug 24, 1999 at 11:27:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Seymour -:- Re: Smug little me -:- Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 17:21:21 (EDT)

AJW -:- Mahatma Jagpaedophile -:- Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 07:49:04 (EDT)
__ Wisp -:- Re: Mahatma Jagpaedophile -:- Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 23:05:32 (EDT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Uh???? -:- Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 21:48:35 (EDT)
__ __ g's mom -:- where did you read that? -:- Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 21:53:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ Marianne -:- Hi G's Mom! -:- Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 13:43:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Re: where did you read that? -:- Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 22:16:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Re: where did you read that? -:- Fri, Aug 27, 1999 at 04:22:19 (EDT)
__ G's mom -:- Re: Mahatma Jagpaedophile -:- Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 21:23:01 (EDT)
__ X -:- Re: Mahatma Jagpaedophile -:- Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 17:11:04 (EDT)
__ __ AJW -:- Answer & A Couple of Questions -:- Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 05:15:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ X -:- Re: Answer & A Couple of Questions -:- Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 06:34:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Cutajerjib -:- Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 06:42:52 (EDT)
__ AJW -:- PR Person -:- Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 08:16:42 (EDT)

RT -:- FOOTSTUCK a Sat-song : ) -:- Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 15:59:40 (EDT)
__ Robyn -:- Re: FOOTSTUCK a Sat-song : ) -:- Wed, Aug 25, 1999 at 21:19:39 (EDT)


Date: Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 09:16:45 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Maharaji and luxury
Message:
I recently saw Lord Of The Universe and one of the things that struck me was Maharaji's response to a reporter's question about his luxurious lifestyle. Maharaji said that if it was anybody else who lived in such luxury it would blow him into a million bits in a split second. (I'm not quoting him verbatim but this is pretty close to what he said). I have a question for premies.

Who does this fucking guy think he is, coming out with a statement like that?! What an asshole. He really thought he was something, didn't he? Only he can handle luxury. Please.

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Date: Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 16:54:48 (EDT)
From: an old friend
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: Maharaji and luxury
Message:
Sorry Jerry. That's what's called either a complete misquote or a general lack of verbal comprehension. Take your pick. What he said was, 'If anyone had the same LIFE I do, they'd blow into a million pieces in a quarter of a second.' (not verbatim, but close) That has a whole different meaning than what you imply and has nothing to do with 'luxury.' That has everything to do with who he is and what he does...not what he has.

Whether you think he's real or a complete fraud, I seriously doubt that you or anyone else on this list could handle 'being him' for too many moments. Step back and think about that for a second. Try to imagine the life that the guy actually has, not your imaginary version of it. And that makes all the more laughable the general ex-premise that he does what he does to get a plane or cars or some dough. There are many easier ways to achieve those ends and he's a smart guy. And before you come out with your knee-jerk reaction of 'he's so stupid, blah, blah, blah'...consider the fact that if he is a fraud, which, in my experience he most profoundly and certainly is not, then he fooled you and all these other smart people. That would mean he's fooled every type of person, from every religion, age group, education and/or intelligence level, economic circumstance, sexual preference, political viewpoint...not to mention from every part of the world...and he's been fooling 'em from the age of 8 through 41. Somebody that clever doesn't need to work that hard for so many years to make a few bucks. That is NOT why he does what he does and as long as you accept the lame and not very well thought out premise that he's fueled by a lust for luxury transportation and cash, you'll be firing your little missiles at a target that doesn't really exist.

But have fun, anyway...

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Date: Tues, Aug 24, 1999 at 09:00:52 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: an old friend
Subject: Some more comments
Message:
Try to imagine the life that the guy actually has, not your imaginary version of it.

Is this redundant? How do I imagine something beyond my imaginery version. You're going to have to help me out here dear old pal.

There are many easier ways to achieve those ends and he's a smart guy.

Maharaji didn't achieve anything. It was given to him. It's not as if he started out as a pauper, y'now. He's not the first rich kid to inherit his father's fortune. He just built upon it by taking it to the land of opportunity like a shitload of other scheming fuckface gurus.

And before you come out with your knee-jerk reaction of 'he's so stupid, blah, blah, blah'...consider the fact that if he is a fraud, which, in my experience he most profoundly and certainly is not, then he fooled you and all these other smart people.

At least we eventually woke up, dickhead. You're still sound asleep.

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Date: Tues, Aug 24, 1999 at 07:02:19 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: an old friend
Subject: Verbatim
Message:
Here's what he said, verbatim.

Reporter: It's hard for some people to understand how you, personally, can live so luxuriously in your several homes & your Rolls Royces [unclear], and why don't you spend that money on feeding people?

Maharaji: And that's a really good question. And let me tell you this. That life that you call luxurious ain't luxurious at all. Because if any other person gets the same life I get, he's going to blow apart in a million pieces in a split of a second.

Well, OF, I guess you're right. I read into it wrong. What Maharaji is apparently doing is clearing matters up for this silly reporter by explaining how tough his life is. I guess by having the grave responsibility of saving so many souls and all, or whatever. Who could possibly comprehend just how immensely, extremely, intense is the pressure cooker that Big M lives in? Yes, our Lord is one of a kind, and it is silly of us to even think that for one moment that he actually ENJOYS his lap of luxury. I'm sorry, Old Friend (do I know you?). Thank you ever so much for correcting me.

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Date: Tues, Aug 24, 1999 at 14:09:18 (EDT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: Verbatim
Message:
i would think that the Lord wouldn't be under any pressure - one would think that he would be beyond that
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Date: Tues, Aug 24, 1999 at 14:50:57 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Ben Lurking
Subject: Re: Verbatim
Message:
Well that's the whole point, Ben. Only Big M could handle his life. As the man said himself. ' Because if any other person gets the same life I get, he's going to blow apart in a million pieces in a split of a second.'

Oooh, Maharaji. You're just so so bad. I ask again, this time in a different context. Who does this fucking guy think he is?

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Date: Tues, Aug 24, 1999 at 22:31:41 (EDT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: Verbatim
Message:
Then why is his life a pressure cooker as you stated?
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Date: Wed, Aug 25, 1999 at 05:26:46 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Ben Lurking
Subject: Re: Verbatim
Message:
I'm not entirely sure, Ben. But I guess when you've got millions of people believing you're somebody you're not, that could put a little bit of a squeeze on you, don't you think? Yeah, that could be a real pressure cooker. Especially if you try to live up to the facade like Big M, sitting in his Krishna costume, did. If you're not REALLY the Lord, why that could blow you into a million bits in a split of a second. But wait, he's not the Lord. Or is he? And if he's not, how does he bear it? Oh, the humanity of it all. If he's only human, like you and me, shouldn't he have been blown into a million bits by now? Maybe the Malibu mansion helps ease the pressure. And if it doesn't, then maybe the private jet does. The shiny new cars? A good stiff drink and a doobie?
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Date: Wed, Aug 25, 1999 at 07:51:17 (EDT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Opps
Message:
Shit Jerry I wasn't paying attention to the whole thread, I don't think the guy is lotu, I though you did -so much for subtlety. Until I read all the way thru the thread I thought you were defending the guy. sorreeeeeeeeeee
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Date: Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 18:31:52 (EDT)
From: biff
Email: None
To: an old friend
Subject: Re: Maharaji and luxury
Message:
Like I've always said, I believe that M is sincere in what he believes/does. If he was in it for the money then he could have made a lot more money as an ordinary citizen. He's an extremely intelligent man and I'm sure that had it been his desire he could have spent his life pursuing money and made tons of it.

The way he has chosen to teach requires a lot of money. Hence the fundraising. He needs the money to keep doing things the way he does them. If he were actually only interested in money he could have retired a long time ago because apparently he's quite well off already.

Anyway his financial situation is really none of my business. You may say it is because I gave him money but the fact is any money that I ever gave was given freely. No coercion was needed or felt.

As for his luxurious lifestyle. Good for him. I really think that the money he's been given or made through various holdings to support that lifestyle was given because the giver wanted him to live the way he chooses to. If they didn't they wouldn't have given it to him.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 26, 1999 at 08:22:14 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: biff
Subject: Money isn't the only issue
Message:
I'm sure that had it been his desire he could have spent his life pursuing money and made tons of it.

This is exactly what he has done.

I don't think it started out that way. He was a kid and his mother told him he was responsible for this whole family business that they have going, so he assumed the role. (child abuse, in my opinion--like sticking kids in TV commercials when you KNOW what it will do to them...) But everyone grows up and now he responsible for continuing the farce, IMO.

that the money he's been given or made through various holdings to support that lifestyle was given because the giver wanted him to live the way he chooses to. If they didn't they wouldn't have given it to him.

biff, what about when it's not in the best interest of the person to give their money away? They really don't have the money to give, but they give anyway? It's their own fault, you are right, but if they weren't brainwashed, maybe they would take care of their own human needs, those of their kids, etc. Could they make better choices? Perhaps.

That is the only money issue I have a problem with. If someone has the money to give and they want to give it to Mahararji, fine, but when they don't have it and give it anyway, they aren't taking care of themselves.

biff, other than this, the money/luxury issue is irrelevant to me. I know people who have as much or more money than Maharaji does. Plenty of them are good decent people who are kind to others. Can we say the same for Mahrarji?

The way people within his organization, premies, workers, etc. get treated BY HIM, is sad. This behavior can't just be dismissed as Lila. To dismiss it as such is pure rationalization-pure fantasy. The guy is on a total power trip and that is very unattractive to me.

His actions are the actions of a spoiled, self indulged, person with a real entitlement problem. And plenty of important people all over the world DON'T act that way. (Plenty of wannabes DO!)

My child's teacher is one of the most important people in the world, in my opinion, and she doesn't act that way. She is unselfish and giving with a loving heart and good sense of humor. She would never humiliate someone. No power trip there. I can't say the same thing of Maharaji.

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Date: Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 18:46:01 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: biff
Subject: Re: Maharaji and luxury
Message:
He's an extremely intelligent man and I'm sure that had it been his desire he could have spent his life pursuing money and made tons of it.

Please could you enlighten us on how he could have made tons of money doing something else? His pending patent on a watch perhaps?

John

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Date: Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 18:24:47 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: an old friend
Subject: Re: Maharaji and luxury
Message:
Old Friend,

BTW, are you my old friend, or just generally aged and well disposed towards people?

Anyway, I used to believe exactly what you said. He must be something special to lead such a movement (although he since denied being a leader). But if he is so special, how does he compare to all the other cult leaders? Are they not under the same pressures as Maharaji?

John.

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Date: Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 00:18:04 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: All
Subject: following maharaj ji's lead.(Gail)
Message:
--'I know
(concept) he loves me but that is what I doubt
the most' --she doubted it because he didn't show
it because that is not on the radar screen of
those that think that they are it.
If I am the great product of 12?, 18? billion
years of evolution (on earth), and selfishness
is the 'answer', why don't I feel like the
bird's? Where after my child is stolen (and eaten)
by the crow's, I am at peace?

Why would prem rawat have run into all the
personal obstacles he did if life and human nature
weren't designed to red flag behaviour that ran
contrary to reality?

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Date: Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 20:35:41 (EDT)
From: Diz
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Re: following maharaj ji's lead.(Gail)
Message:
Hi Bill

I don't think I followed your whole argument there, but I do have sympathy for your attempt to be your wife's best friend, and a decent parent to your kids. Agree with VP's response re asking your wife - you've got the primary resource right there. Agree parenting isn't always easy.

The thing I've found most useful in developing my ability to get on with other people in my life has been some of the communication skills type of literature, eg. Tom Gordon's Parent Effectivenss Training. Simple things like knowing how to listen to a kid, or another adult, without cutting them off in some way, and knowing how to put your needs and ideas across clearly and in a way that doesn't lay the blame for your feelings onto the other person, are worth exploring. Well, they were for me. As always, you're free to take the bits that make sense and work for you, and chuck the rest.

Take care, Bill. You've got a good heart, that's obvious, and that I reckon is your greatest asset in your search to live in an ethical and constructive way.

Love

Diz

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Date: Tues, Aug 24, 1999 at 01:35:07 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Diz
Subject: threadmates
Message:
all these
every 100 million years mass extinctions from comets
and volcanoes, exhaust the dna so that it wierded out
when it came to patching together the human? What dateing
image do you have from the cave man days??
Guy with club dragging the wife into the cave by her hair.

Here is the programming concept of the football coach
who started this promise keeper roadshow.
'Guys! Your job is to help your wife and kids make thier
dreams come true.'
And then there is the religious concept backup logic
which leans mostly on a few sentences that jesus(yeshua)
managed to get squeezed into the bible that is filled with unneeded blabber and frankly, some typically human idiocy.

I know guys that went to previous PK events. After a
couple weeks or so, not to very much has actually changed,
but they had a boost in the 'try to be 'good'' department
and of course some were changed quite a bit.

We all recoil at the guys that get into the religion
business and get stupid and want to dictate to others
using this or that quote to back up thier nonsense.
What can be done? Nuttiness is everywhere.
But my interest in the subject is looking at the various
views on the 'oneness' issue and seeing which one
has the least dumb repercussions.

Tough call to make to say that --the oneness is self
concious-- is the least negative.
The track record of humans involved with different
religions is well, YOU know.
Worse than you know.

But from a womans perspective, buddha was (it's safe to say)
the cause of more female suffering than any other man.
The hindu's can thank the brahma theory for thier wife
abuse history.

jeeze, it's late, if there is a self aware 'god', I think
the track record of humans provide a view to guess
how it really is. But not tonight.

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Date: Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 11:23:12 (EDT)
From: Paul
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Promise keepers
Message:
While the Promise Keepers aren't in the same league as DLM, behind the bible thumping stadium shows ( turnouts this year were half of last year), are fundamentalist beliefs about how men need to reclaim their dominant household position as caretakers and protectors of their wives and children. I don't see a whole lot of difference between MJ having all the answers, and the bible having them all.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 26, 1999 at 13:34:50 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Paul
Subject: I agree
Message:
You know Paul, It seems that most of the guys I know since the first PK event I attended,
have only momentary involvement in bible based talks.
The book is way to loaded with too many authors and too many opinions and too many
of them are overboard and uncomfortable.
I go to a mens breakfast on saturdays and have for a couple years (on and off) and that is one
independent group I must say. You want to start an argument? Start yammering on about
scripture. They wont stand for it. They are not there for bible class and just wont do it.
They want to talk back and forth in a large round table about thier personal issues in life
and get feed back. The pk events are actually mostly talk about regular issues and most guys
are only open so much to anyones input.
Of course there are those that are -devotees- and that group sort of becomes a club of believers.
But take the focus off scripture talk with those guys, and start talking about new seats or
budget issues, and thier goes the religious harmony.
Just the way it is, I dont have human/god issues all figured out, but I know if there is a self aware
power, it is different than the marketing would have us believe.
Wether we are muslim, or jewish or whatever.
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Date: Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 11:16:33 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Dilemma
Message:
I'm left with the dilemma of How do I be my wife's best friend?
How do I be a little man's dad. THESE are at least dealt with by the promise keepers.
They aren't discarded as 'ethics'.
Or 'contingencies'. (Gould)

For myself, looking to any religious group doesn't seem to be the way to find answers. If I am there to find company or friendship, or think about ideas, ok, but answers...how can any group of people tell an individual what is right for him? Each group has ideas that the group is formed around. People involved in the group have to believe these same ideas in order to function within the group.

Sometimes the ideas are so rigid that the individual person can't fit into them. If he tries, he becomes too rigid, as well. Well, this is what happens to me, anyway. Sounds like what you might be experiencing, bill.

And why are we always so intent on getting our answers from someone else in the first place? Didn't we look to Maharaji (in my case, premies) for answers?

As for how to be your wife's best friend, don't ask the promise keepers, ask her;)

Loving your little man will work. You know how to best do that, I don't and neither does anyone else.

Nice to read you as always,
VP

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Date: Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 09:56:25 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Ex-Dawkins forum
Message:
So what's to do?
Trust Dawkins to lead me into the great stark
beyond where he won't (after 20 years)
drop me off into the ex-Dawkins forum where I
lament -following his wanderings- missing my
own sense of what I should or shouldn't be open to.

This is rich, Bill. I like this. Maybe I'll join you. We can curse out Jim whenever he shows up telling him what an asshole he is for still being brainwashed and living in denial.

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Date: Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 16:56:12 (EDT)
From: CultbusterUK
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Glen's Legal Muscle
Message:
Just to let you all know that after threatening legal action against the Guardian newspaper, UK National CoordinatorGlen Whitaker, retreated back to the safety of his cult without even troubling his legal counsel. It seems he was mistaken in his belief that Elan Vital was not the successor organisation to Divine Light Mission.
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Date: Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 20:45:29 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: CultbusterUK
Subject: I was there
Message:
I was there Glen, when you told us that evening that DLM had changed its name to Elan Vital. I remember it as if it were yesterday, about how you joked that it sounded like 'Elen Vital', a kind of sexy girl's name, as in full of vitality etc.
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Date: Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 17:15:59 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: CultbusterUK
Subject: Or lack of legal muscle, isn't it?
Message:
Cultbuster UK: What a hoot! How is that for being out of the loop? Being a Yank, and having been out for so long, isn't it correct that Glen is the head of EV in the UK? Guess those folks at the Guardian have a new found respect for the ex's & the ex forum, huh? How's that for having his head in the sand? Now the next chapter, entitled: Mahatama Jagdeo.

Marianne

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Date: Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 19:53:18 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Darshan Income
Message:
It's been mentioned before that in the USA gifts are tax free. In the UK it is different. Gifts have to be declared, and tax paid. There were many darshan lines in England in the 70's and 80's. Does anyone know if the income M received was properly accounted for? If there are no records of M's personal income, or DLM's income from darshan lines, during those years then we can assume that the income wasn't declared. That of course would be illegal.

How can this be investigated?

John.

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Date: Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 12:10:38 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Gift tax
Message:
It's been mentioned before that in the USA gifts are tax free.

If you receive a cash gift over a certain amt. you have to pay tax on it.

VP
Tax man

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Date: Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 05:49:45 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: Darshan Income
Message:
Clutching at Straws...Who was that guy who died of a heart attack on the Virgin islands?? Robert Maxwell! Now his kids have 'done their penance' and having ripped of thousands of old age pensioners are back in the'club'- Zillionaires .Come on we're talking England here, where you are rewarded for corruption with a peerage and a seat in the House of Lords. Do you honestly think those Bastards could give a rat's arse about D-line gifts of the 70's and 80's.Apart from a little get out clause called the statute of limitations[7 years],what the hell you been smokin' man??
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Date: Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 13:30:09 (EDT)
From: Know It All
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Re: Statute of Limitations
Message:
Oh Catweasel, I don't think the IRS cares about the statute of limitations if they are able to prove that the NON PROFIT EDUCATIONAL ORGANIZATION IS NO LONGER ENTITLED TO TAX EXEMPT STATUS DUE TO FRAUD. This is the kind of stuff where people can get sent to prison. Remember Rev. Moon? How about Jimmy Bakker?
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Date: Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 00:27:47 (EDT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Re: Statute of Limitations
Message:
Wrong, Catweasel.

Like I said earlier, a US Citizen must declare ALL income, irrespective of in which country it was obtained.

Not doing so is called Tax Evasion, for which he would be personally liable, quite apart from the effect it would have on the organization's charitable status.

As an aside, in order to declare monies received as being a 'gift', one wouild presumably have to be able supply details of 'the giver' for verification purposes? Not easy when considering the faceless multitude involved - or did someone advize him to keep all those scribbled notes we chucked in the boxes with our hard-earned moulah?

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Date: Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 04:55:29 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: Camelot,under the Round Table
To: Rob
Subject: Re:Rob is the Statue of Limitations
Message:
Look , I know i'm communicating with the 'Good and Kind ' Rob but I cant help feeling that your really full of shit Roberto! Yeah , I know , so am I ; but the difference is I've never claimed to be anything else....Thats what I like about my royal weasel self.I've thoroughly convinced all my many detractors here that I am totally devoid of intelligence and discernment. Geez Rob , your totally up yourself mate, you should fit in here perfectly...If you were real!!! But your not.Come on Rob.....Bleat a bit. Try a little Hugo Boss bleat, just for me Big Boy!!P.S Tax Angles are way off song .Dont you think the opportunist pricks with the IRS may have already have given it the once over??
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Date: Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 14:05:21 (EDT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Makes my heart warm.......
Message:
....to see the beginnings of a real discussion, finally.

You almost achieved real prose there Cat, just slip in a few paragraph breaks, stop splitting your infinitives and I may actually start understanding you!

As far as thinking you are full of shit, well I don't really. I'm sure that under that caustic self-protecting exterior lies a really warm and fuzzy human being. But you've never let any of it show, leastwise not in my recollection.

Every post of yours I've read is either slamming someone you dislike or mistrust, or is so garbled I can't make out what you are trying to say. It's almost like you use innuendos and points of reference known only to yourself - the result being that you know what you mean, but the rest of the world hasn't a clue.

Just trying to help (the Good and Kind in me!). Perhaps if you were to offer some thoughts and feelings on your practice of Knowledge, and your relationship with Maharaji, instead of simply criticizing others, you might be surprised at the positive response it would receive.

As for your request for a 'Hugo Boss bleat...bleat for me'....well you have to remember it's only Australians and the Welsh who are excited by sheep in that way, and I am neither:)

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Date: Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 14:07:34 (EDT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: I'll try again... Makes my heart warm.......
Message:
....to see the beginnings of a real discussion, finally.

You almost achieved real prose there Cat, just slip in a few paragraph breaks, stop splitting your infinitives and I may actually start understanding you!

As far as thinking you are full of shit, well I don't really. I'm sure that under that caustic self-protecting exterior lies a really warm and fuzzy human being. But you've never let any of it show, leastwise not in my recollection.

Every post of yours I've read is either slamming someone you dislike or mistrust, or is so garbled I can't make out what you are trying to say. It's almost like you use innuendos and points of reference known only to yourself - the result being that you know what you mean, but the rest of the world hasn't a clue.

Just trying to help (the Good and Kind in me!). Perhaps if you were to offer some thoughts and feelings on your practice of Knowledge, and your relationship with Maharaji, instead of simply criticizing others, you might be surprised at the positive response it would receive.

As for your request for a 'Hugo Boss bleat...bleat for me'....well you have to remember it's only Australians and the Welsh who are excited by sheep in that way, and I am neither:)

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Date: Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 16:28:12 (EDT)
From: A Premie
Email: None
To: Know It All
Subject: Re: Statute of Limitations
Message:
Since Maharaji already owns the whole universe, anything we give him is just a token of appreciation. We cannot really give him anything since he already owns it but it is his love which allows us to give things to him.

Since he is all powerful, there's no law in any land that can touch him.

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Date: Wed, Aug 25, 1999 at 01:06:05 (EDT)
From: Mickey Moss
Email: ickymickey@home.com
To: A Premie
Subject: Re: Statute of Limitations
Message:
AP:

Since Maharaji already owns the whole universe, anything we give him is just a token of appreciation. We cannot really give him anything since he already owns it but it is his love which allows us to give things to him.

Since he is all powerful, there's no law in any land that can touch him.

Almost the same argument King James (Stewart) made to Parliament. It's a mixture of the 'Divine Right of Kings' and the sanctity of property. (He claimed England was his estate.) As I recall Parliament wasn't impressed.

-MM

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Date: Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 17:11:26 (EDT)
From: Know It All
Email: None
To: A Premie
Subject: Jai Satchitanand, a Premie!
Message:
A Premie, your posts are the best ones on any forum I have ever read. They remind me that I am in my mind. How could I have forgotten that Maharaji controls the entire universe. Now I remember that 'not a leaf moves without [his] agya.' Do you think leaves are easier to move than IRS agents, A Premie?
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Date: Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 20:47:55 (EDT)
From: A Premie
Email: None
To: Know It All
Subject: Re: Jai Satchitanand, a Premie!
Message:
and very soon you shall see, he will start to move his hand, like so, and everyone will know that the saviour of mankind has come.
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Date: Wed, Aug 25, 1999 at 01:15:34 (EDT)
From: Mickey Moss
Email: ickymickey@home.com
To: A Premie
Subject: Re: Jai Satchitanand, a Premie!
Message:
and very soon you shall see, he will start to move his hand, like so, and everyone will know that the saviour of mankind has come.

And here I thought you were 'the' A Premie. Could you possibly post a picture of the tell tale hand movement? Will it be followed by a gush and a moan? Truth is the consciousness of jiss.

-MM

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Date: Mon, Aug 30, 1999 at 13:10:15 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Mickey Moss
Subject: Re: Jai Satchitanand, a Premie!
Message:
Dear Icky Mickey,

You are as funny as Anth! That gave me my morning laugh!

Thanks,

I don't believe I have had the pleasure of meeting you before.

Love,

Liz

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Date: Wed, Aug 25, 1999 at 11:28:24 (EDT)
From: Premie Ji
Email: None
To: Mickey Moss
Subject: why, of course!
Message:
Worry not! The Perfect Master has everything in hand!
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Date: Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 22:21:08 (EDT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: A Premie
Subject: Very soon = $/years? Y2K?
Message:
I went out for coffee in 1979-80 (M had said many similar things back then) what is very soon? I bet it'sgoing to be New Years Day

Hey is K y2k compliant/

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Date: Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 13:10:19 (EDT)
From: A Premie
Email: None
To: Ben Lurking
Subject: In the clouds with power & glory
Message:
Huh! You'll laugh the other side of your face when the world comes to a standstill on the 1st of January 2000 and Maharaji's jet is the only thing left flying in the sky and travelling the world, bringing the message that the Prince of Peace is here.
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Date: Wed, Aug 25, 1999 at 01:26:29 (EDT)
From: Mickey Moss
Email: ickymickey@home.com
To: A Premie
Subject: Re: In the clouds with power & glory
Message:
Huh! You'll laugh the other side of your face when the world comes to a standstill on the 1st of January 2000 and Maharaji's jet is the only thing left flying in the sky and travelling the world, bringing the message that the Prince of Peace is here.

Now you've gone and frightened the children, and misspelled 'traveling.' At least my reservations are for mid December and mid January. Does this mean the price of trip insurance will go up?

-MM

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Date: Tues, Aug 24, 1999 at 22:32:44 (EDT)
From: Loud Shirt
Email: None
To: A Premie
Subject: Re: In the clouds with power & glory
Message:
Prince of Peace is a great song by Galliano. But that's about it.
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Date: Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 16:06:13 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: A Premie
Subject: Is this the day...?
Message:
Jai Sat Chit Anand Premie-ji,

Is this day of which you prophesy the day when the lion will finally shag the lamb, as predicted at India Gate 1970?

Anth the Brother-ji

(Your words of satsang are sweet raindrops of charanamrit in a HATE filled desert)

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Date: Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 16:14:10 (EDT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Is this the day...?
Message:
Anth,
Don't you remember the analogy m used to give, how everyone would need hard hats if they were in buildings when GOD called them up? He laughed about it, I wonder if in the new improved version we should have hard hats?
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Date: Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 13:21:52 (EDT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: A Premie
Subject: Re: In the clouds with power & glory
Message:
Actually we have tested all our systems for y2k and we will be operational on 1-01-2000. Does M have his own satellite and air traffic controllers?
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Date: Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 14:39:51 (EDT)
From: Taxman
Email: None
To: Know It All
Subject: Re: No Statute of Limitations on Tax evasion
Message:
I believe that there is no statute of limitations on tax evasion in the U.S.
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Date: Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 15:26:33 (EDT)
From: Know It All
Email: None
To: Taxman
Subject: I disagree
Message:
Title 18, United States Code, Section 3282 states that any non-capital (murder) offense must be prosecuted within five years after the offense is committed. Now if there is an on-going conspiracy, that may be another issue. Murder is typically the only offense that does not have a statute of limitations.
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Date: Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 15:37:15 (EDT)
From: Taxman
Email: None
To: Know It All
Subject: Re: I disagree - You might be correct (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 06:21:13 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Re: Darshan Income
Message:
Hey Cat,

We're not all rewarded with a peerage, only the upper class and severe political arselickers get that. The rest of us are still buckling under the yoke of corporate capitalism.

Robert Maxwell was a Czech.

You're right Cat, no one gives a shit about all the cash your Perfect Master carted out of the country in the 70s.

However, another of our national characteristics is we love trying to make bureacracy work. So when someone in an office gets a bit of paper with something on it, even if it happened 25 years ago (we don't have a 'statute of limitations), because they're scared they'll get the sack if they don't process it properly, particularly if it's 'high profile' or 'out of the ordinary', they do it.

It was bureacracy like this that put Al Capone behind bars and caused Shri Rajneesh to bolt back to India. Never underestimate the power of the blue collar pen pusher.

Did you see my post to you below Cat?

Anth the Grass

Now Rupert Murdoch, there's a Media Magnate with a heart. I wonder if he's a Czech too.

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Date: Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 07:47:43 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: You're wrong there
Message:
Er, we do have a statute of limitations. I know because I had to lie low for a while until I was in the clear.
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Date: Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 14:29:50 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Re: You're wrong there
Message:
Does this mean I can start using my real name again Milud?

Anth the Fugitive

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Date: Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 06:58:41 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: When you wish upon a Star
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Fantasy Land
Message:
Yeah I wonder. P.s Its my guess your pissing in the wind again Anth the dreamer. Just another opportunity to fly your new flag of negativity to your imagined audience. Actually there's probably about 100 of you out there and 10,000 lurkers laughing at your expense. Cheers the cat
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Date: Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 14:33:10 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Read on Brother
Message:
Well,

at least you're reading my stuff Cat, and responding with some really intelligent insights and comments I might add.

Anth, happy with an audience of one.

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Date: Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 05:22:31 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: Darshan Income
Message:
Hi John,

You should ask Peter Potter.

Anth the Tax Inspector

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Date: Mon, Aug 30, 1999 at 13:25:40 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Peter Robin Hood Potter
Message:
Dear Anthony,

I'm worried about Peter Potter. He used to be such a nice boy. Now he is responsible for taking money from the poor & giving it to the rich much like Robin Hood in reverse.

Love,

Liz

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Date: Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 05:24:48 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: joseph and mary
Subject: Main Jer?
Message:
Hi Holy Family,

Surely you mean 'main jerk'.

By the way Joseph, I hear a strong rumour, while you've been in the workshop, your missus has been having it off with this bloke called Gob Almighty or something.

Anth the Grass.

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Date: Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 20:09:44 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: Darshan Income
Message:
It could be reported to the UK equivalent of the USA's Internal Revenue Service. Maybe the cops investigating Jagdeo might be interested....
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Date: Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 00:36:27 (EDT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: Darshan Income
Message:
A lot depends on his residency status, or domicile as it is also known in the UK, at the time.

A US citizen has to declare all income, whether sourced here in the US or overseas. Certain countries, the UK included, have mutual taxation arrangements, to exchange information and to prevent double-taxation.

In both here and in the UK, citizenship is not, for taxation purposes, considered as relevant as residency, which is determined by various factors, including things like number of days one is present in the country over a period of years, future intent, tangible assets overseas and so on.

It's my understanding the IRS can go dig back as far as they like, but the difficulty might lie in proving how much was received, when and where.

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Date: Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 07:54:15 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Actually, you're correct
Message:
The Spice Girls spent a year when they were out of Britain for about eleven months so that they wouldn't have to pay our high taxes on their income for that year. Even though they're British the tax they pay is dependant upon how many days they were in Britain that financial year.

One thing's for sure. Maharaji couldn't be nobbled by the British tax inspectors because he's clearly not a resident of the UK.

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Date: Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 19:52:50 (EDT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Re: Darshan Income
Message:
Please refrain from dispairaging my family name. I have bben lurking and read along with all my loyal family members. Where do you guys sign up for 'attack the exes at ex-premie.org/forum' service? When will URL be back on shift - we miss him so much. I hope that if M is ever charged with anything or audited he has quality counsel - like 'A Premie'. See ya around cat
Ben 'I have been' Lurking
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Date: Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 04:58:40 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: None
To: Ben Lurking
Subject: Re: Darshan Income
Message:
Aw Fuck that bullshit ! Here We're on our own!1
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Date: Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 14:49:14 (EDT)
From: The Ultimate Carnivore
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Rat Weasel, you're so full of yourself
Message:
It would seem that you have missed going to church today and you are raging on the Forum instead.

The statistics of Forum III must have been wrong in showing that 1.3 million messages were read in the approx. 14 months of its existence.

Or maybe we are doing this just for your entertainment because we LOVE you so much.

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Date: Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 21:55:50 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: Darshan Income
Message:
In my own experience our police are not interested in tax fraud. It's not their department and they get nothing out of it.
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Date: Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 09:33:47 (EDT)
From: Hihomumio
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: C'mon URL-don't weasel out of this
Message:
Well URL-

In light of what you said above, please explain to me how your words apply to the sordid situation involving Jagdeo's sick behavior with children. Please keep in mind that this is not hearsay, rumor, or bullshit. An ex who posts on this board KNOWS ABOUT THIS SICK BEHAVIOR FIRSTHAND AND DID WHAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE: MADE SURE THAT MAHARAJI KNEW ABOUT IT. There was no action on his part from what I understand. Are you saying that you have nothing but 'glowing praise' for him? Are you saying he is not accountable for allowing this sick shit to go on when he was fully aware of the problem? Can you readily acknowledge that by Maharaji's lack of action regarding Jagdeo he is just as guilty of defiling those children as the perpetrator himself?

As far as your comment regarding premies not having the same issues as ex's, any premie out there who has children and is as normal as anyone else (meaning that their children come first before anything else, including M)would be absolutely OUTRAGED to learn that a sick bastard like Jagdeo lurked in their midst and I'm willing to bet they would most definitely hold Maharaji accountable for that. Disagree with me on that? Okay, go find a premie parent and ask them how they would feel if they found out that Jagdeo had been molesting their child--then please come back here and prove me wrong about this.

I may not be a fan of premies, but I have to say you have no right speaking for all premies. In this particular instance, you are stinking up the whole lot in your blind faith with nothing to back yourself up with.

Frankly, you're an asshole and if I were a premie I would be ashamed to be associated with the likes of you.

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Date: Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 15:53:20 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: mbvictoria@hotmail.com
To: Hihomumio
Subject: A premie comment...
Message:
Hihomumio,

Firstly, I have just read this post, so please forgive a belated response.

This matter has been discussed before and, in fact it was this and other alleged 'instructor' sexual indescretions, that initially got me contributing on this forum some time ago.

I don't think many premies would be impressed with Jagdeo if the allegations made about him are true. Not many people endorse paedophilia and I don't think premies are much different in this regard.

My personal view is that, if possible, proper charges should have been (or still should be laid) against the perpetrator and a conviction made accordingly. As I recollect, the opinion of some of the forum lawyers was that this maybe difficult and the publicising of the allegations on this site was probably the best form of action that could be taken under the circumstances. My view was that this could be considered 'slanderous' and that any allegations of this nature should be fought appropriately in a court of law. Any way, there doesn't seem to be the will for it because no action has been taken. If you are interested in that debate, it's in the Forum archives around April/May last year.

Remember, despite the digusting nature of the allegations, no one is 'guilty' unless convicted in a court. This is the fairest way to protect the innocent, no matter who they are.

As for your view of Maharaji's involvement in a 'cover up' on this issue, I can't comment because I am not aware of the facts of the matter, and I don't think that any real comment can be made until the verdict of a court on the original allegations could be made known.

I think that the use of LEGALLY unsubstantiated material on this Forum is inappropriate and carries it's own risks as does Anth's public smear campaign through the press. It smacks of the 'kangaroo court' or 'lynch mob' mentality which creates hysteria. Clearly, because of the seriousness of the matter such hysteria should be avoided.

Having said this, I'm a father too and and had a small daughter in the 70's, so I can fully appreciate your disgust and revulsion.

Mel

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Date: Thurs, Aug 26, 1999 at 06:10:23 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Anth's Jagdeo Smear Campaign
Message:
Hi Mel,

A couple of things. First I'm not running a 'smear campaign' against Jagdeo in the press. The newspaper contacted me. I didn't contact them. Interest was kindled after the Jonathon Cainer/Guardian cock-up.

Second, we're not talking about 'instructor sexual discretions' here. We're talking about sexually abusing young children. This is a serious crime and you can go to prison for it.

I agree with you about the charges. Believe me, there is the will to take the scumbag to court. He's just a bit hard to find at the moment. (Maybe you could help here Mel')

Mel, you say no one is guilty unless convicted in a court, and this is the fairest way to protect the innocent.

Well, this is pure bullshit. Thousands of crimes are commited every day that never get to court. Tell the victims that the person who robbed, raped, assaulted them, or whatever, that the person who did it is innocent until he's been to court. And if the criminal never gets to court- what then?

Do we just forget about it Mel, and brush it under the carpet, like Maharaji has been doing with Jagdeo all these years?

No way Mel. Jagdeo is a scumbag paedophile. Maybe he's still going around somewhere selecting little girls for his 'private knowledge preparation sessions' right now.

I wish he would sue me Mel, but he won't. You know why? Because there are brave witnesses around who'll stand up in court and tell everyone what he did to them?

So fuck him Mel. He deserves everything he gets.

And how can you smear someone when they're already covered in shit from head to toe?

Anth the Avenger.

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Date: Fri, Aug 27, 1999 at 22:02:25 (EDT)
From: Hihomumio
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Anth's Jagdeo Smear Campaign
Message:
I'll second that motion!!!
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Date: Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 21:02:17 (EDT)
From: Hihomumio
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Re: A premie comment...
Message:
Hello Mel-

I'm happy to see your post. I must say that I was beginning to think that no premie posters/lurkers were going to respond.

Just to let you know, I brought up the whole Jagdeo issue because of URL's comments specifically. As you know, Jagdeo was a mahatma-a 'chosen one' if you will hand picked by Maharaji. My issue is that if mahatmas were to be considered as a representation of M, then he is somewhat responsible for their actions. And if their actions were illegal in any way, he should have seen to it personally that the authorities were notified when he was made aware of their illegal actions. He did not do that. Url really pissed me off with his baloney about Maharaji not being accountable and his comment about premies having nothing in common with exes. I believe we (premies and exes) most definitely have something in common on this topic-mutual disgust, but as I said before, I was pretty surprised that no premies stepped up to the plate until you did.

Have you noticed that URL hasn't been here since my original post? Funny how he was constantly butting in and all of a sudden-poof-he pulls a disappearing act. How coincidental...

I'm not looking to do battle but I sure would like to see for myself that there are some premies out there who don't overlook everything thats gone on in the cult and pretend that all is bliss and joy. This wasn't bliss and joy for the kids it happened to. Scarier than that though is we don't know and probably never will know how many kids we're talking about in this situation.

Thanks for responding. As far as what Anth is doing on his end--fear is probably the biggest reason this didn't come out years ago. If Anth or anyone else has found a way to bring attention to it now, then more power to them! My sympathy lies with the victims and no one else.

Regards
Hihomumio

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Date: Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 18:38:35 (EDT)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Re: A premie comment...
Message:
Dear Mel Bourne,

Remember that if you are simply telling the truth it is not slander. I am telling the truth about what happened. Read your post again through the eyes of someone who experienced this first hand. Read my journey again. The people who have experienced this or have direct knwoledge of this DO have a right to tell the truth about it.

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Date: Fri, Sep 03, 1999 at 00:58:47 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: g's mom
Subject: Re: A premie comment...
Message:
Dear G's Mom,

I have just read your journey FOR THE FIRST TIME. I thought I had read it already but hadn't. Thankyou for sharing your story. I know it must have been difficult for you and I hope Jug gets fixed before he kicks the bucket.

Love,

Liz

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Date: Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 21:10:42 (EDT)
From: Hihomumio
Email: None
To: g's mom
Subject: Re: A premie comment...
Message:
Hello G-mom

Thanks for your comments to Mel about this situation. I had not mentioned your name because I didn't feel it was my place to do so.

I've never commented to you before about what you went through. I'm somewhat at a loss as to what to say, but please know that I am horrified at what happened to you and wish there were something I could do. If he is still alive, I truly hope he pays for this.

Sincerely-
Hihomumio

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Date: Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 10:18:24 (EDT)
From: An ocassional oberver
Email: None
To: Hihomumio
Subject: Re: C'mon URL-don't weasel out of this
Message:
URL wrote: 'As for the issues ex-premies have against Maharaji, that just doesn't compute for premies because we don't have those same issues. So don't ask us to hold him accountable for something with which we have no issue. '

URL has answered your question. It is clear that URL is saying that premies have no issues with paedophilles and therefore no issue with M protecting Jagdeo and other abusers.

I am only an occassional observer, but as yet I have not seen any premie refute URL's ststement.

Well premies, is it true what URL has said?....or don't you dare have an opinion.

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Date: Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 10:49:03 (EDT)
From: Hihomumio
Email: None
To: An ocassional oberver
Subject: Re: C'mon URL-don't weasel out of this
Message:
Hello-
I guess to some extent you are right-this issue has come up in the Forum often enough that there's no way that the premies who do visit on a regular basis could say they have no knowledge of it. Since they do jump into all types of threads here, it's probably safe to assume that they read pretty much everything-don't you think so? Even though I asked URL specifically, I would also be interested in any other premie responses to my post.

Any takers? By the way URL, anyone else's response doesn't get you off the hook-I'm anxiously awaiting your response...

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Date: Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 11:16:14 (EDT)
From: An Occassional Observer
Email: None
To: Hihomumio
Subject: Re: C'mon URL-don't weasel out of this
Message:
I am convinced that URL means what it says. Almost every premie I have asked about this
a. either refuses to speak with me any more
b. says they'll make equiries and get back to me(they never do)(except Rob and Shp who said M didn't reply)
c. simply refuse to take it on board saying it is not possible and that I have been kidnapped ny 'Mr Mind'.

Like URL says, M is giving premies such a wonderful experience that they could not possibly have any issue with what He does. It reminds me of 2nd World war propaganda films showing Hitler giving children sweets to display what a humanitarian he was.

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Date: Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 13:01:52 (EDT)
From: Hihomumio
Email: None
To: An Occassional Observer
Subject: Re: C'mon URL-don't weasel out of this
Message:
even if I was put away for it. Protectors of molesters are just as guilty of committing the crime in my opinion.
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Date: Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 14:43:05 (EDT)
From: An Occassional Observer
Email: None
To: Hihomumio
Subject: Re: C'mon URL-don't weasel out of this
Message:
As far as I remember SHP said he never received a reply....and the last I heard of a premie emailing M on the subject(apart from Rob's failure to get an answer).

I also feel sick that I used to drive him around. He told a former-premie I know, that he(Jagdeo) was a Perfect Master in a former life.
Chow for now. AOO

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Date: Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 09:20:14 (EDT)
From: People's Poet
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Go Back to Your Homes
Message:
Go back to your homes.
There is no God
to be found upon this way.

The Master walks tall
in his Mickey Mouse world
but his feet are made of clay.

You'll hear inner crackling,
see some bright patterns,
and swallow plenty of snot.

The path is long.
It goes on and on.
But the Truth it is definately not.

So go back to your homes.
The Lord is not here.
He's tucked up in heaven in bed.

Do what's right here on Earth
and if you want to see God
You'll have plenty of time when you're dead.

Thingy the Poet.

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Date: Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 04:53:29 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: People's Poet
Subject: And prepare for government!
Message:
Only the UK people will remember the other Sir David saying something similar to that.

High hopes and expectations can often be dashed. Not easy to always come to terms with though.

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Date: Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 08:09:12 (EDT)
From: Seymour
Email: seymour_t@rocketmail.com
To: All
Subject: Dawkins - a bit of an animal
Message:
Hello forum buddies, glad to see things are continuing to bubble along. Whenever I manage to tune in most of the time is spent trying to catch up on what has been said over the previous month(s) and I rarely get time to post.
I enjoyed the recent thread about Gould,Dawkins etc.as I have spent a lot of time reading their books over the last year and thought that Way's point about ethics was a good one...
human science is devoid of ethics, and most people feel a need for ethics....morality does not exist in a universe without purpose
I was talking to a Buddhist friend of mine recently and, although we had a great chat and he was fascinated by what I could tell him about genetics, evolution etc (which wasn't much), he said that even if it were true that there is no 'designer' ( Dawkins' Blind Watchmaker), that we are genetically pre-programmed and our motivation is purely the survival + increase of our section of the gene pool - it leaves out some of the aspects of life that matter most.
Being in love, laughter, friendship, sadness and all the other emotions...Also a particualar area of interest of mine - music and all forms of expressionist/impressionist art. Not so much the commercial $million paintings, SONY music sort but the sort that some of us are driven to do despite survival - i.e. does not make any money.
I feel that art is the language the above (love, emotion etc.) and communicates a different view of reality than that of the dry scientific investigations of Dawkins, Gould et al. I have read many Dawkins books and learnt a lot from them but he is a bit of a philistine when it comes to contemporary music. He says that whereas other art forms are valued for their'style or skill of performance,..mood, emotional impact... the 'pop' music sub-culture is almost exclusively preoccupied with popularity itself. It is quite clear that the important thing about a record is not what it sounds like, but how many people are buying it' I think he should get out more or tune into a different radio station. Mind you I doubt if someone who says in the same book (The Blind Watchmaker - which I have enjoyed reading twice BTW) that the world would be a better place if the high-fidelity amplifier had never been invented, would ever get into Orbital, Fat Boy Slim or lose himself on the dance floor of Pasha in Ibiza etc. There is feeling that I get when I hear a good song, look at a Van Gough painting, listen to John McGloughlin play the guitar or watch a good production of Shakespeare,.. fill in whatever turns you on.. that does not seem to fit into the scheme of things according to the evolutionary tale of more and more efficient survival machines, which may apply to gazelles, deers and all other animals but we are not just animals are we? - or is that a contentious statement as the whole genetic/evolutionary movement seems not to recognise the difference between humans and animals. I love animals and would never kill, harm or eat one but I have never seen my cat enjoy a good painting or read a good book, maybe it gets it's cultural buzz in other ways but I doubt it. Also animals seem to lack the notion of charitable acts unless there is some benefit to them or their families whereas humans are known to give to strangers who they have never known or will ever know. If 'survival of the fittest' applies equally to humans as animals then I have not got much chance and I think I'll join the christians where the 'meek will inherit the earth'.( oops, too late, I lost my faith a few decades ago )
All that being said I mainly posted to recommend a book to Way about a meeting between ethics and genetics/science. 'The Origins of Virtue'
As far as ethics goes, there are just too many books.. I'll just mention a couple I have read recently 'Ethics' by A.C. Ewing ( a good summary/ introduction to the topic) and 'Practical Ethics' by Peter Singer.
Way asks some good other good questions..
is there something inherently good? (emphasis on inherent) Does that power that governs all physics and chemistry also govern human behavior?
I think that just because we have been mugs in the past and fallen for an unreal perspective on life based on religious superstition does not mean we should abandon the possiblity that there may be 'more things in heaven and earth...' than we can ever explain, but have an influence on our lives just the same.
Cheers
Seymour.
p.s. I also enjoyed Gould's 'Wonderful Life' - even though I know next to nothing about ethnology,geology,paleontology and all the other 'ologies that I can't even spell. It was a great tale of discovery. I have been trying to keep up to date with the Burgess Shale monsters ever since - it's amazing to think that the creature on the cover is our great, great, great x 1000? ancestor.
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Date: Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 08:41:22 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Seymour
Subject: But a highly evolved one
Message:
I don't understand why people insist that things like love, compassion, consciousness, morality, appreciation, etc. can only exist if they're part of some intelligent design. Personally, I think they're perfectly explainable, and more plausible, as emergent phenomena of evolution, as are hatred, murder, deceit etc. (might as well throw them into the mix).

Why does God HAVE to exist? The only reason I can think of is that some (most?) people can't bear the thought of a universe without him. I only felt a need for God when I thought finding him was the purpose of my life. (Talk about a concept. You can't get hungup on one any more potent than that one). Otherwise, I see no reason to continue believing in him. Evolution does not require his existence. Just some peoples' peace of mind does is what it looks like to me.

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Date: Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 12:00:41 (EDT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Seymour and Jerry
Subject: Re: But a highly evolved one
Message:
Much thanks to Seymour for the reading recommendations, which I will put on my list. I do read a lot, but I rely on books only as a springboard to my own intuition. Books are expressions of the author's own knowledge and understanding, but to really understand something, we have to 'hear' it from within, direct from the source, just as the author once did. And yes, Seymour, I know that feeling that you talk about. - Jerry, I believe that we are all individual micro-universes carrying around ALL the knowledge of the macro-universe within our minds. Our access is limited, true, but let us evolve toward greater access. Mind is the maker and predates the brain, which is merely hardware. When did a computer ever program itself? (But let's don't rehash that sort of argument). Let me just say that I don't think you should deny the existence of a greater mind than your own. Shutting yourself up in that way can never bring you to your highest potential. Quite the opposite is required - opening yourself up to the higher mind with a humility that befits your situation and yes, your need. If you manage to maintain your smug attitude throughout your life and your death, you will only succeed in stagnating in boredom and unhappiness. I can't imagine being at death's door and having my little mind all made up. No. Open, accept, and allow yourself to feel the need that is in you. Forget the guru, but there are other arms.
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Date: Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 14:04:50 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Smug little me
Message:
If you manage to maintain your smug attitude throughout your life and your death, you will only succeed in stagnating in boredom and unhappiness.

You mean unlike the happy fellow I was when I believed in God? (Which I wasn't, BTW). How can you speak so authoritatively on what's required for happiness? What about truth, Way? What if the truth, as far as I'm able to discern it, is that there isn't a God? And how do you know that I'm not happier now that I know longer believe? (Which I am, BTW).

Open, accept, and allow yourself to feel the need that is in you.

The only need I feel is to know that everything is alright. Y'know something, Way? It is. I can live in a universe without design. I don't need a God watching over and caring for me as I once did. I'm free from that.

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Date: Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 17:27:25 (EDT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: Smug little me
Message:
Jerry, here are a few responses to your last post.

First of all, it seems I speak more authoritatively than you would allow me on the requirements for happiness. Well, some things can be said on that subject with no argument. The recipee calls for a little kindness, and very little else. It doesn't take long to figure it out. You quoted my assertion about smugness leading to unhappiness but that is perfectly true and you didn't refute that, only saying that you are now happier than when you 'believed in God.' But who said anything about 'believing in God'? That can be a kind of smugness as well. I haven't used that terminology since the fifth grade, and even then it was in very negative terms. And still would be. I know plenty of people who 'believe in God' who are miserable, hateful creatures! Believe me!! I'm not suggesting that you should be happy by believing in some kind of God who 'cares for you' by raining on your garden because you prayed for it while 6000 Turks leave the world in one earthquake. I can do without that little fairy tale, too. I get your point. But that kind of thinking about 'God' is not the only alternative.

What I did suggest to you was that you get rid of the smug attitude that you display when you express the belief that you now firmly hold about the non-design and non-purpose of the universe. (This goes for Jim, as well, probably more so). You insist that you can live quite happily in a universe without design. And you asserted earlier that morality, love, and so forth do not require a universe of design. But that is exactly the problem with a universe without design - there is no love there, meaning a love that is there already, built-in, to which we are all bound. It is not a question of some little love and contentment that some creature could eak out and try to support against the mindless randomness of the elements, but a love that doesn't need to struggle, that will always be supported, that is already True, which you are not creating, but discovering, and whose puppet you already are. Why would any creature of a random universe want love anyway? Yuck.

You say that you can see no reason to believe in a universe of intelligent design. Do you need a reason to be kind to somebody? 'Reason' is completely the wrong word. And so is 'intelligent design,' by the way. That is a human utterence that only delays the proper recognition. I suggest again that for now we don't impose our uncalled-for limitations onto the process we find ourselves in. We were not consulted. What is our business here is our attitude, and as there is only one proper attitude at the moment of death, let's adopt the same for the moments of life.

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Date: Tues, Aug 24, 1999 at 11:04:13 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Re: Smug little me
Message:
And you asserted earlier that morality, love, and so forth do not require a universe of design. But that is exactly the problem with a universe without design - there is no love there, meaning a love that is there already, built-in, to which we are all bound.

I don't see this as a problem, Way. Why would it be? If that's the way it is, that's the way it is. Love still exists either way. Don't you want to know where it really comes from? What's so terrible if it's a chemical reaction? Would it be any less fulfilling?

Why would any creature of a random universe want love anyway?

Because it makes you feel so good, like everything is alright, like you're home. That's why. It's good shit.

I suggest again that for now we don't impose our uncalled-for limitations onto the process we find ourselves in.

Christ, Way. You make it seem as if it's a crime to want to know who you are. Like it or not, we only have our limitations to work with. What do you mean 'uncalled-for'? Are you suggesting that Somebody or Something (perhaps this 'Mind' you've mentioned) could give a rat's ass about our ideas on who we are and where we come from? Fuck him. Or it. Whatever. I don't think any such being or thing exists so I'll be damned if I'm going to humble myself before it.

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Date: Tues, Aug 24, 1999 at 11:34:57 (EDT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: Smug little me
Message:
To Jerry: Oh my God, are we talking at cross purposes, or what?! Our viewpoints are so contrary that we seem to misconstrue every other word. My house is at one end of the meadow and yours is at the other end. So far we have yelled a few greetings across the distance but they end up sounding like accusations. If we bundled up a back pack and both hiked to the middle of the meadow maybe we would eventually end up hearing each other properly, but that would take (literally) days and days and days. We've got to stop this, but let me try one more shout. I asked you why a creature in a random universe would want love. And you said, 'because it feels good.' But I mis-stated my question. I should have said material universe, and I should have said self-transcendence. So here's the question again: why would a creature in a materialist universe have the urge to self-transcend? (Clue - the best sex isn't just a matter of physical attraction to pass on genetic information, but involves a relinquishing of one's ego to the Other. Why is there bliss in that?) Please answer from your own understanding and do not quote a book, either scripture or science.
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Date: Wed, Aug 25, 1999 at 06:19:36 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Self-transcendence
Message:
So here's the question again: why would a creature in a materialist universe have the urge to self-transcend? (Clue - the best sex isn't just a matter of physical attraction to pass on genetic information, but involves a relinquishing of one's ego to the Other. Why is there bliss in that?) Please answer from your own understanding and do not quote a book, either scripture or science.

I have to agree with Jim, Way. My own understanding is based largely on what I've read and what I've been able to make of that. But what you call self-transcendence. It wasn't until recently that scientists have discovered through their various imaging methods what takes place in the brain during various states of mind. They've been able to correct mental disorders, more or less, by treating directly these various parts of the brain through medication and various therapies. Am I to ignore these discoveries because they have nothing to do with MY understanding? They have everything to do with it.

Take your self-transcendence into bliss with the Other for instance. My understanding, based upon what I've read, is that it's a rush of the neurotransmitter, dopamine, to the basil ganglia, a part of the brain when stimulated, causes ecstacy. Facts like this can only lead me to understand that what we once thought was spiritual, separate from the body, is really an emergent property of a physical state.

As for why we have an 'urge' for this 'self-transcendence', I really don't know. I only know that feeling good, generally, is beneficial to us where feeling bad means something's wrong and needs to be corrected. There is an ideal state of being to aspire toward. When in that state, if it's done naturally and not through harmful drugs, we're better off as a result. We're healthier, sharper, more able to face the challenges of the world without being overwhelmed by them. We're more fit. And as you know, to an evolutionary psychologist, it's the survival of the fittest that it's all about.

You use sex as an example. Obviously, we pursue sex for the sheer ecstacy of it. That pursuit does help in the procreation of the species, even when it's not intentional. So our pursuit of sexual pleasure is instrumental to our survival. The fact that human beings are constantly in heat does give us an edge, wouldn't you say?

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Date: Wed, Aug 25, 1999 at 11:23:15 (EDT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: Self-transcendence
Message:
Jerry, thanks for the response. Our little discussion here will disappear soon. I'm glad you responded carefully and calmly this time - better than some of your comments about 'God.' But I really did want to avoid all that stuff about states of mind correlating with chemical changes in the brain. That data is really pretty obvious and certainly does not settle the important question here of the supremacy of mind or matter. There is so much in our physical lives that call for unmitigated awe, such as what happens when the sperm and egg proceed to develop into a new living, breathing, seeing, hearing creature. Something is at work here, a vast intelligence, so superior to our own that it is nearly impossible to fathom. Not only does life actually work in all its astounding complexity, but the beauty of it as well should keep our minds open to something above us. The reason I asked about your understanding/experience with self-transcendence is that this is the mechanism which we use to approach that something higher than ourselves. Jim asked me if I thought the urge was universal, and I'm sure it is indeed universal among all higher creatures with a developed sense of self. A life of ME is very painful and whatever is pushing the universe along is pushing us to get out of the narrow confines of personhood. 'Universal Mind' put that urge in us, matter didn't. The minor merging we get with sex is a small and unsatisfying taste and we all get to experience that unsatisfaction sooner or later because that is the way it is. You say that 'there is an ideal state of being to aspire toward.' But then you describe it as being little more than physically and mentally fit. Well, I doubt very seriously you will garner much fulfillment from such a state. In a material universe there is no ideal state of being to aspire toward, because the material deteriorates, period. So that's why I suggested that you examine your own urge to self-transcend and to get back to me. I thought you might come down a notch or two and acknowledge that there might be something to open our eyes to besides the physical world. So, as Seymour says, Cheers!
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Date: Wed, Aug 25, 1999 at 20:18:01 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Re: Self-transcendence
Message:
Way,

You make some grand claims here, and I just want to ask you 'How do you know'? Have you proof, or even evidence, of any of your claims? To be honest, I would like some of what you say to be true, but in spite of my own experiences of cosmic stuff, I don't know if our consciousness dies with our bodies.

John.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 26, 1999 at 12:15:04 (EDT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: Self-transcendence
Message:
John,

I know I have read many posts from JHB, but I can't now remember which ones, so I'm not sure 'where you're coming from.' I will just say 'join the club' as far as the question of consciousness separate from the physical, and let you know that I'm just as ignorant as anyone. As far as my claims about consciousness, I don't know if you've done any of the reading that I did, (say Meister Eckhardt, for example?) but I don't say anything that hasn't been said from the time human beings could both speak and speculate. As for proof and evidence, how can you look for evidence in time/space for something that by definition lies outside of such? I am satisfied that there is order in the universe. I am satisfied that there is love in the universe. I am satisfied that there is beauty in the universe. I don't require proof for these things. I honor order, I honor love, I honor beauty, I honor you. - - p.s. I earlier responded to this same post from you while I was dealing with Jim above, most recent.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 26, 1999 at 12:56:28 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Re: Self-transcendence
Message:
I know I have read many posts from JHB, but I can't now remember which ones, so I'm not sure 'where you're coming from.'

When you find out where I'm coming from, please educate me!

As for proof and evidence, how can you look for evidence in time/space for something that by definition lies outside of such? I am satisfied that there is order in the universe. I am satisfied that there is love in the universe. I am satisfied that there is beauty in the universe. I don't require proof for these things. I honor order, I honor love, I honor beauty, I honor you.

I think I sort of agree with you. The problem is, as I see it, that within consciousness, all sorts of strange things can occur, many of which cannot be adequately communicated to others. Now is consciousness a property of a living physical being, or is the physical body, and the physical world, a property of consciousness, or are both independent entities that come together in some magical way in life? It's easy to believe that consciousness ends with death (especially as it appears to end every time we are in dreamless sleep). It's also easy to believe it continues after death, although this belief is based more on hope than evidence. The belief that the physical world is an just part of a dream can be left to kings in Indian scripture stories, but maybe that's true as well!:-)

Regarding order, beauty and love, there is also chaos, ugliness and lack of love. It seems to depend on your perspective. Of course, we know which perspective we prefer:-)

John.

John.

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Date: Wed, Aug 25, 1999 at 16:04:09 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Re: Self-transcendence
Message:
Way,

I'm sorry my 'God' posts came across the way they did. I was just equating what you call Universal Mind to being that.

I think when you consider how states of mind are directly the result of the physical state of the brain, the answer is obvious which is in charge. How we think and feel is directly the result of physical,neural networks. The brain determines what state the mind is going to be in. I know things like self-hypnosis and meditation can directly affect the chemistry of the brain but before they can, a person's brain has got to be responsive to them. Many peoples' aren't.

Although it's logical to assume that a 'vast intelligence' is behind the formation of life, the only intelligence we really know of is our own. And that only exists because our brains are more evolved than others. What's really 'unfathomable', for most people, is that until intelligence evolved in us, it never existed at all, ever. The same with a sense of beauty. We are the sole proprietors of it. It was not given to us by a 'Universal Mind'. If it was, that Mind sure isn't speaking up on it's own behalf that it indeed did. How come? Doesn't it want credit for it's handiwork? Yes? No? Until then, Universal Mind is a figment of peoples' imagination. You created this Universal Mind with YOUR mind, not the other way around.

As for sexual satisfaction, I think it depends on how deep the itch goes. When you scratch an itch that's really bothersome, the greater the feeling of ahhhhhhhhhhhh you get when you scratch it and hit the spot. Sex is like that. It's a release from tension. If there's little sexual tension in you when you have sex, there's not going to be that great a feeling of release from it, which is really what that feeling of ecstasy is.

I think when you're physically and mentally fit, you're of good spirit as well. Yes, we grow old and die. That doesn't mean we have to start feeling old and decrepit before our time.

Finally, you seem to think that I'm in some sort of denial about my yearn to self-transcend, which is your term, BTW. I'm only assuming, as best I can, what you mean by it. But really, Way. If I could just put myself in the best of physical and mental health, establish some healthy habits that will increase my sense of well being, that would be good enough for me.

Well, if you wish to add anything, feel free. I will read it with interest. Otherwise, until then.

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Date: Wed, Aug 25, 1999 at 17:55:52 (EDT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: Self-transcendence
Message:
Jerry, I do know that there are many people who do not concern themselves with anything beyond their day to day physical existence. And such people would limit love (as you seem to) to the sexual instinct and familial dependencies. If you are as content with the physical as you say you are, then I won't rattle your canoe, but I can't help wondering what ever possessed you to practice any form of meditation. I don't want to make any more suggestions to you, but I would like to argue to mind/brain problem just a little more. You say that 'states of mind are directly the result of the physical state of the brain'. I do understand how someone would adhere to that viewpoint, but I do not. I've had personal experience of ingesting chemicals that first alter the brain function which then leads to an altered state of mind, which might appear to be a case of the brain producing the state of mind. But, quite differently, the way I experienced it was my brain physically tuning its receptors to a level of consciousness already existent but not ordinarily received by me. The main reason I felt that way is because the state of mind seemed so universal and so beyond my own normal limits. The analogy I would suggest is a television set being hooked up to cable and then being able to receive cable TV shows not earlier available. I feel that all levels of consciousness exist independent of matter, but we who are limited by our physical structures normally experience only a small spectrum of the entire field. Both time and space are relative and our own individual experience of them are dictated by our brains, but that does not mean that time and space per se are limited to our particular brain's experience of them. I didn't express that very well, but it is an essential point. For you to say that 'Universal Mind is a figment of peoples' imagination' is tantamount to insisting that your view of time and space is the only one there is. By expressing these thoughts to you I am not attempting to have you and I resolve the issue, of course. The question of the immateriality of the mind will go on and on and the best way to answer the question is to dispense with the physical and find out what happens to the mind, which is an experiment we will all perform one day, whether we feel the urge to self-transcend or not! By the way, I'm in the middle of Behe's book 'Darwin's Black Box,' and am really enjoying it.
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Date: Wed, Aug 25, 1999 at 21:06:30 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Ever heard of paragraphs?
Message:
Way,

See that big Enter key right down there in the second from bottom row on your keyboard? It allows you to jump to the next line and -- this is the neat part -- jump a line altogether! That way, you can actually paragraph your words and assist others trying to read them. Believe me, it makes a difference.

I'm curious. You offer all your opinions apparently irrespective of the growing body of brain research. What would you do with all that work? Declare a moratorium?

You know, at one point, you ask Jerry why he ever practised meditation thinking as he does. But Way, you know the answer to that. What he thinks now isn't what he thought then and, more importantly, what he knows now might far exceed what he knew then. Scientific knowledge has certainly grown in the interim. Why shouldn't Jerry (or you, or me, for that matter) be able to glom on to some of it?

And so you like Behe's book, do you? Hve you read the scathing critiques its received from the non-christian scientific community? Does it interest or concern you that Behe apparently has nary a single scientific supporter besides religious folk? Or are you perhaps grateful to find someone who gets close enough to the issues who doesn't threaten your ideas that you don't want to examine him too closely?

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Date: Thurs, Aug 26, 1999 at 10:58:44 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Letting go of old concepts
Message:
You know, at one point, you ask Jerry why he ever practised meditation thinking as he does. But Way, you know the answer to that. What he thinks now isn't what he thought then and, more importantly, what he knows now might far exceed what he knew then.

This is true, Jim. But I also think it has to do with a willingness to be open to what science has to teach. Until recently, I wasn't. I was highballing down the tracks certain that knowledge of God was all that was important, and that Maharaji was the key to me finding that knowledge. I didn't have time for science then.

But when I began to let go of Maharaji, I found myself suddenly very reponsive to science. I realized that in my quest for spiritual enlightenment, I had been struggling against any natural inclinations I had toward a more rational means of understanding life. Maharji was largely responsible for this. As you've pointed out yourself, he's not exactly an advocate for critical thinking. So when I let go of trying to 'understand' the way Maharaji said I should, I found myself gravitating toward the sciences for understanding.

But this doesn't hapen with everybody. Although many people see through Maharaji, they fail to see through the world he comes from as well, the world of the 'Universal Mind', 'God', and so on. They don't realize that not only is the messenger a fraud but his message is as well.

I think it all depends on the lift you get from having faith in a higher power or greater consciousness or whatever. When faith in such things no longer satisfies, its easier to let go of them. Until then, people are very reluctant to hear alternative, more reasonable explanations for existence and life's experiences.

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Date: Tues, Aug 24, 1999 at 12:01:29 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Talk about ego!
Message:
So here's the question again: why would a creature in a materialist universe have the urge to self-transcend? (Clue - the best sex isn't just a matter of physical attraction to pass on genetic information, but involves a relinquishing of one's ego to the Other. Why is there bliss in that?) Please answer from your own understanding and do not quote a book, either scripture or science.

Way,

What is it about one's 'own understanding' that's so special? Or are you talking about the 'sacred imagination' or some such nonsense? The fact is most of what we know is culled from the collected, if not collective, efforts of others, i.e. science.

As for why we have an urge to self-transcend? First, is that really universal? Are you sure? Or is something a little more general universal? If so, what is it?

Second, that's one of the more interesting unsolved mysteries of ev/psych. Have you read anything on this particular topic in the field? You should. Prett interesting stuff. The bottom line, of course, is that no one knows for sure. Still, there are some theories that have some pretty strong appeal, for me anyway.

Don't forget, for most of man's existence he's thought some pretty crazt shit. Couldn't you just as easily ask why 'we' believe (or used to, anyway) that there's a living spirit in fire? Or that the sun is a god? I guess the short answer might be that we're easily suggestible.

Gotta go.

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Date: Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 22:06:31 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Spiritual bullying? -- makes me remember the good ol' days
Message:
Nice try, Way,

You've really got a lot of nerve trying to argue this way. What's apparent here is that you're ignorant of scientific explanation for 'morality'. (Quotes because the explanation throws a lot of the implied connotations into question.) That part's okay. We all know different things, right? What's not okay is this bullshit, 'open your heart to feel my argument' crap. Come on, man, you can do better than that.

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Date: Tues, Aug 24, 1999 at 11:08:11 (EDT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Spiritual bullying? -- makes me remember the good ol' days
Message:
Jim, I'm not altogether ignorant about the view of the universe proposed by materialists. I did read the Blind Watchmaker when it first came out and quite a few others. And I'm already aware of different approaches to the question of morality - from spirituality, philosophy, and even biology. But I've never read a single materialist theory that didn't stink to high heaven with human ego, so it's a bit unpleasant for me to do so. However, I'm willing to delve further into the subject, because I find it interesting, (but not because I'm expecting some final answer to satisfy both camps). I think that the way I prefer the central question to be stated is 'Is there any justification for proposing an intelligence superior to human's?' And secondly, 'Is mind the maker of matter, or vice verse?' If matter is supreme, then science is sufficient. But if mind is supreme, then science is insufficient. If Higher Mind exists, then Higher Mind is necessary for the answer. What do you think, have I stated the fundamental opposition between the two camps adequately? I have to admit that I do sometimes sound like a premie, which makes me feel sheepish the next day. I'll try to keep myself in check, but I'm not going to abandon 'the heart' entirely.
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Date: Tues, Aug 24, 1999 at 11:27:54 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Re: Spiritual bullying? -- makes me remember the good ol' days
Message:
There is no reason to 'abandon the heart.' In fact, there are a lot of good reasons why we should develop heart intelligence. A lot of hard scientific evidence is available which demonstrates the existence of Heart Intelligence. The benefits of cultivating it are immense, both physically and mentally
gerry
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Date: Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 17:21:21 (EDT)
From: Seymour
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: Smug little me
Message:
Jerry, you sound like you are enjoying life - free as a bird. When you say I don't understand why people insist that things like love, compassion, consciousness, morality, appreciation, etc. can only exist if they're part of some intelligent design I agree that we cannot draw that conclusion. However I believe that there could be a higher love, consciousness, way of living, wisdom, understanding etc. than I have yet experienced ( I live in hope ). More importantly I think that there may be even a 'truth' that could be realised in the same way that we have discovered gravity and all the other scientific truths. This is not the same as believing in a conscious being who created the universe and is still running the show.
Way, I think I know what you mean when you talk about 'hearing' from within, but books, art, music etc. serve as a catalyst to your realisations. It may be possible to go off and, by being a recluse, discover lots about yourself but I would not fancy it and I doubt if it would do any real good. We are all in this together and I think we can help each other, even if it is by disagreeing, to understand what it's all about.
I'm with you when you say Forget the guru and I am sure there are 'other arms' but having been down one dead end we have to tread carefully.
Take care
Seymour
BTW, Way, the author of 'The Origins of Virtue' is Matt Ridley
You may find it a bit dry but it is an interesting explanation based on biology and genetics of what motivates us to be good rather than bad, selfish, cruel etc.
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Date: Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 07:49:04 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: anthginn@yahoo.com
To: All
Subject: Mahatma Jagpaedophile
Message:
Hi Everyone,

Hihomumio's post below, about Mahatma Jagdeo, has prompted a prediction (who cares if I'm wrong anyway?)

In the not too distant future, premies will be only too pleased to answer our questions about Jagdeo's paedophilic activities.

They will say either, 'Didn't you know he's dead'. (Good ridance if he is).

or:

'It's terrible. We didn't know. Maharaji didn't know. As soon as he found out he sacked him. Maharaji is really upset about all the terrible things it turns out he's done, and is co-operating fully with all legal investigations. Naturally, as soon as Maharaji got a whiff of what was going on, he instigated an enquiry and demanded a full explanation from Jagdeo.'

(There, that's saved the Elan Vital Press Officer a job.)

Why do I make this prediction?

Two reasons. As a result of the Private Eye/Jonathon Cainer/Francis Wheene, Guardian thing, through another ex who posts here, I was contacted by a reporter from a British Sunday tabloid, interested in doing a 'Internet Uncovers Cult Paedophile After 25 years Story', 'All too often the Internet is associated with pornography, however... etc'

(Glen, sit down, pour yourself a brandy.)

Naturally I co-operated fully and answered all the reporters questions, after he reassured me nothing would be sensationalised.

The second reason such a statement will be forthcoming is that acouple of folk who were around in the Unity School days, after hearing about Jagdeo's abuse, (I told one of them), did the right thing and reported him to the local police.

Even though the incidents took place about 25 years ago, I was told that the cops took the allegation very seriously and would investigate.

In light of the above, I make my prediction.

Glen,

As I'm sure you'll be reading this. Hello. Hope you and yours are all well etc.

You have to accept that these allegations against Jagdeo are serious- not as you've suggested in our private correspondance.

Take your 'Maharaji's Rep in the UK' hat off, and put on your parents' hat for a moment. How would you feel if he'd been taking Laura off for private 'children's knowledge preparation sessions' when she was 8 or 9, and then fucking around with her?

Fuck him Glen. He deserves everything he gets. He's a dirty double-dealing, slime filled, douce-bag.

(I bet Ros is glad she's not doing his PR any more.)

I hear the fan whirring. What's that brown lump flying across the room?

Anth the Parent.

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Date: Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 23:05:32 (EDT)
From: Wisp
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Mahatma Jagpaedophile
Message:
Anth,

Good Luck with this venture. It's difficult at best. Perhaps the authorities would like to question Randy P and Judy O concerning their knowledge of the activities and proclivities of Jagdeo.

Take care.

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Date: Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 21:48:35 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk
To: AJW
Subject: Uh????
Message:
AJW, you say, refering to Jagdeo:

'Fuck him Glen. He deserves everything he gets. He's a dirty double-dealing, slime filled, douce-bag'

Er, ahem, er isn't Jagdeo dead now, according to what I've read here. Even Saint Anth doesn't have the powers to cause grief to someone beyond the grave.

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Date: Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 21:53:58 (EDT)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: where did you read that?
Message:
I have never read that he is dead. Where did you read that? I know that I thought of him as an old man, but I was thirteen, looking at the picture of him on JM's site I was struck by how YOUNG he looked. How old do you think he would be now? I would guess he might have been about 40 then, so he would be in his 60's now?
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Date: Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 13:43:24 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: g's mom
Subject: Hi G's Mom!
Message:
Hey G's Mom! I am glad to see you chimed in here. Could you send me your email address? I have misplaced it.

Take care, Marianne

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Date: Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 22:16:17 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: g's mom
Subject: Re: where did you read that?
Message:
It may just be a rumour that Jagdeo is dead but AJW suggested as much himself in the first part of his post. I've read it here and there but who knows for sure?

One thing's for certain is that if he's alive, he won't get into any trouble because he would be untouchable, hidden away in India and for him to be extradited to Britain to stand trial for child abuse which happened 25 years ago would be a feat beyond the current British legal system.

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Date: Fri, Aug 27, 1999 at 04:22:19 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Re: where did you read that?
Message:
Morning milud,

I don't think he is dead Sir Dave. I had a bit of private correspondance with Glen about him, and I think Glen would have told me if he'd kicked the bucket.

It's great to see his past catching up with him. Watch this Sunday's tabloids for further developments.

Anth the Watching from a Dugout.

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Date: Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 21:23:01 (EDT)
From: G's mom
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Mahatma Jagpaedophile
Message:
Anth I just want to say here that I admire your courage and integrity in doing this. If I can help please let me know.

g's mom/G-mom

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Date: Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 17:11:04 (EDT)
From: X
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Mahatma Jagpaedophile
Message:
'Even though the incidents took place about 25 years ago, I was told that the cops took the allegation very seriously and would investigate.'
'Fuck him Glen. He deserves everything he gets. He's a dirty double-dealing, slime filled, douce-bag. '

Have you been sitting on this for 25 years?
Do you know what the term for people like you is?

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Date: Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 05:15:49 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: X
Subject: Answer & A Couple of Questions
Message:
Hi X,

No, I haven't been sitting on it for 25years. I only found out fairly recently. At first it was a report from a parent, then from a child, then, in the past few months, all sort of crap has been falling out of the woodwork about his dirty little habits.

What's the term for people like me X?

Tell me. I don't know.

Anth the Homo Sapien Sapien.

ps. Is X your real name, you big brave premie cyber warrior you?

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Date: Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 06:34:53 (EDT)
From: X
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Answer & A Couple of Questions
Message:
>What's the term for people like me X?

Mate.
Barfly.
Happy Bloak.
Beermunger
Anthastic Homosappie
Little Burning Man
Cyber Muse Anthy

Xcuse me,
Xtensive Xtra Xcellence

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Date: Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 06:42:52 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: X
Subject: Cutajerjib
Message:
Hi X

I like the cut of yer jib' and I shall have a browse round those sites later.

Didn't I meet you in a game of noughts and crosses once?

Anth the O

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Date: Sat, Aug 21, 1999 at 08:16:42 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: PR Person
Message:
At the end of my note to Glen, (above), I wrote, 'I bet Ros is glad she's not doing his PR anymore.'

I was, of course referring to her doing Maharaji's PR, not Jagdeo's.

On the subject of PR, I've noticed the premie honchos fly into fits of panic at the hint of anything adverse appearing in the press about Maharaji. I can't believe how paranoid they are, and the massive impact our tiny pebbles are having when they land in their little muddy pool.

Lighten up guys. It's only a little Mickey Mouse Cult you got mixed up in while you were still a bit spaced out from the 60s.

Come on in, the water's lovely.

Anth the Warm, Wet, Cuddly, Freaked-Out, In His Mind, Monmat.

(Better a Monmat than a Doormat.)

Hey, Premies, does Maharaji still do monmats?

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Date: Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 15:59:40 (EDT)
From: RT
Email: omm
To: All
Subject: FOOTSTUCK a Sat-song : )
Message:
FOOT-STUCK
thanks to Joni Mitchell

I came upon Ex of the Fraud
He was posting for all the Whirled
And I asked him, 'Why are you typing?'
And this he told me:

I'm singing ‘down with Maharaji’s form’
I'm gonna join The Anti-Cult Anand!
I'm gonna alert Airports when HE lands
And try and get other souls free.

We were prachar dust; Knowledge icons
Our time stolen, caught in the Master’s bargain
And we've got to get ourselves back from depending…

Then can I click beside you?
I have come here to loose the fog-
And feel to be a cog in Elan Vital.
Well,maybe it's how I pressed my ear
Or maybe it's just the time for spam
I do know who I am, but you know HIS life is for Earning!

We were prachar dust; Knowledge icons
Our time stolen, sold on the Master’s Darshan
And we've got to get the Premies back from pretending…

By the time we freed the Foot-Stuck
We were half a million strong
And everywhere there was song and a celebration !

And I dreamed I saw the Guru’s Jet
Riding low on fuel in the sky -
Repossessed from a lack of Devotion.

We were prachar dust; Knowledge icons
Our time stolen, caught in the Master’s bargain
And we've got to set it right. Truth is for sending...

+++

RT

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Date: Wed, Aug 25, 1999 at 21:19:39 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: RT
Subject: Re: FOOTSTUCK a Sat-song : )
Message:
Hey Sweetie,
You've been sitting her alone for to long. I can't get fired up so much about M and I thank god for that. I have really just used my mild involvement to join in the conversation with people I thought were a good mix. For now anyway things have gone a bit to far for me. Anyway I wanted to recognize your talent and the fact that you put it out here for us.
Thanks RT.
Love,
Robyn
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