Forum IV: The Ex-Premie Forum
Archive: 4
From: Mon, Sep 13, 1999 To: Fri, Sep 24, 1999 Page: 2 Of: 5


Roger E. Drek -:- ***Best Idiot of Forum*** -:- Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 15:46:08 (EDT)
__ __ Liz -:- Re: ***Best Idiot of Forum*** -:- Wed, Sep 22, 1999 at 00:56:22 (EDT)

barney -:- Security Alert - email frm Microsft -:- Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 00:47:38 (EDT)

TD -:- My premie astrologer.... -:- Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 21:05:02 (EDT)
__ nigel -:- Get stroppy with the stargazers! -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 06:58:38 (EDT)
__ __ JW -:- Re: Get stroppy with the stargazers! -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 14:15:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- The Barnum Effect -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 19:13:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ JW -:- Re: The Barnum Effect -:- Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 13:00:45 (EDT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- Bronze Age madness -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 12:45:18 (EDT)
__ Liz -:- Best of the forum...? -:- Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 00:28:44 (EDT)
__ __ Roger E. Drek -:- ***Best of Forum*** -:- Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 18:20:48 (EDT)
__ John cainer the liar still -:- Re: My premie astrologer.... -:- Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 23:32:33 (EDT)

Fred -:- Wit & Wisdom -:- Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 12:24:00 (EDT)
__ Dr Octopus -:- Re: Wit & Wisdom -:- Thurs, Sep 23, 1999 at 07:49:04 (EDT)

Dr Octopus -:- CHARITY COMMISSION -:- Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 10:56:50 (EDT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Re: CHARITY COMMISSION -:- Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 11:16:36 (EDT)
__ __ Fred -:- Re: CHARITY COMMISSION -:- Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 12:17:28 (EDT)
__ __ __ Dr Octopus -:- Re: CHARITY COMMISSION -:- Thurs, Sep 23, 1999 at 07:13:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Re: CHARITY COMMISSION -:- Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 21:48:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Fred -:- Re: CHARITY COMMISSION -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 17:44:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Fred -:- Re: CHARITY COMMISSION -:- Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 00:32:47 (EDT)

Sion -:- Number of followers -:- Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 09:18:52 (EDT)
__ AJW -:- Re: Number of followers -:- Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 07:35:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ Sion -:- Re: Number of followers -:- Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 11:48:15 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ JW -:- Re: Number of followers -:- Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 15:16:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ barney -:- I like these numbers! Now, show me the money! -:- Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 15:42:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ JW -:- And Also -:- Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 15:30:56 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ gmom -:- Re: Number of followers -:- Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 11:53:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- Re: Number of followers -:- Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 11:53:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ barney -:- Re: Number of followers -:- Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 14:34:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Playing the numbers -:- Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 07:40:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sion -:- Re: Playing the numbers -:- Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 08:11:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Liz -:- Unholy Numbers -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 15:46:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Happy -:- About Sai Baba -:- Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 14:01:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ closet premies -:- There is more -:- Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 13:59:27 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- divide by four -:- Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 08:34:26 (EDT)

AJW -:- Question for URL -:- Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 08:19:43 (EDT)
__ URL -:- Re: Question for URL -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 15:41:12 (EDT)
__ __ AJW -:- Touch a nerve did I? -:- Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 17:01:50 (EDT)

AJW -:- Dear Glen, all the letters. -:- Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 07:34:55 (EDT)
__ bb -:- Anth -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 01:21:44 (EDT)
__ __ Marianne -:- Repercussions of child sex abuse -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 13:42:34 (EDT)
__ __ Hey Drek how bout adding bb's -:- response to Anth in *best* nt -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 11:12:30 (EDT)
__ Roger E. Drek -:- ***Best of Forum*** -:- Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 15:17:32 (EDT)
__ Fred -:- Dear Glen. -:- Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 11:37:19 (EDT)
__ Shp -:- Getting down to it -:- Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 10:17:33 (EDT)
__ __ AJW -:- Thanks Sandy (nt) -:- Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 06:58:26 (EDT)
__ __ kmdarling -:- Re: support for the abused -:- Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 13:43:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ gmom -:- great post Katie -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 12:05:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ Mark -:- Re: support for the abused -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 05:50:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ LdM -:- Re: Thanks -:- Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 12:25:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ Iisa the opportunist -:- Re: support for the abused -:- Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 11:50:20 (EDT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Great Post Kate -:- Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 07:12:07 (EDT)
__ __ __ nigel -:- Have you read this, URL? Any thoughts? (nt) -:- Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 22:21:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ JW -:- Thank you Katie -:- Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 15:06:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ Liz -:- It wasn't Honesdale was it? -:- Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 14:54:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ kmdarling -:- Re: It wasn't Honesdale was it? -:- Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 18:42:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ bb -:- Re: It wasn't Honesdale was it? -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 00:38:42 (EDT)
__ __ __ Roger E. Drek -:- ***Best of the Forum***, please? -:- Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 14:18:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- ***Best*** of ***Bests*** -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 12:09:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ bb -:- Re: ***Best of the Forum***, please? -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 00:41:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Well said, Katie! -:- Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 13:54:16 (EDT)

Seymour -:- Real molecules -:- Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 07:10:52 (EDT)
__ NIGEL -:- SEYMOUR, READ THIS TODAY, IF POSSIBLE... -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 07:04:50 (EDT)
__ Jerry -:- Re: Real molecules -:- Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 02:21:49 (EDT)
__ __ Mark -:- Re: Real molecules -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 15:09:08 (EDT)
__ __ Nigel -:- I wonder... -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 12:23:23 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- Re: I wonder... -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 15:56:55 (EDT)
__ nigel -:- Re: Real molecules -:- Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 10:51:17 (EDT)
__ __ Seymour -:- Re: Real molecules -:- Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 17:08:26 (EDT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Re: Real molecules -:- Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 07:39:55 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- That's impossible by definition, Dave -:- Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 12:18:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Re: That's impossible by definition, Dave -:- Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 21:14:16 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Seymour -:- Re: That's impossible by definition, Dave -:- Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 05:21:04 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Re: That's impossible by definition, Dave -:- Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 12:07:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Seymour -:- Nothing is Real - Strawberry Fields for -:- Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 05:14:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Re: That's impossible by definition, Dave -:- Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 02:05:03 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ The snail god -:- Re: That's impossible by definition, Dave -:- Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 06:54:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Re: That's impossible by definition, Dave -:- Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 11:27:29 (EDT)

Jim -:- Premie poetry literature class -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 19:01:51 (EDT)
__ People's Poet -:- Row row row your boat -:- Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 08:43:27 (EDT)
__ JW -:- Translation -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 19:16:33 (EDT)

Jim -:- No, Maharaji's not a cult leader -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 18:40:30 (EDT)
__ People's Poet -:- That sinking feeling. -:- Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 08:14:55 (EDT)
__ beeb -:- Nil, take a look at that. -:- Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 00:24:01 (EDT)

barney -:- Fact: Shp is a liar! -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 16:49:50 (EDT)
__ barney -:- That's it! Enuff! Close down the Forum - Shp takes all! -:- Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 06:06:19 (EDT)
__ Shp -:- Re: Fact: Shp is a swell guy! -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 17:58:06 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- Evasive, pathetic, typical -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 18:44:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ Shp -:- Note to Self -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 19:06:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Shp really does it ... he crosses over into toonland -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 19:09:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Everybody loves those 'toons! -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 19:24:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- So how does this work exactly? -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 19:30:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Moving Energy 101 -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 20:21:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Interesting for sure ... now will you please answer my question -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 21:19:23 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Answers r us -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 21:43:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- If you think that's an answer, you're dumber than I thought -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 21:54:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- One smart boy felt smart (say 3x fast) -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 22:01:27 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Tell me something honestly -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 22:50:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Honesty is the best policy -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 23:25:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Re: Honesty is the best policy -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 23:33:20 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Re: Honesty is the best policy -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 23:37:35 (EDT)
__ AJW -:- Show mercy Barney -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 17:20:14 (EDT)
__ __ barney -:- You want mercy? I'll give you some real mercy! -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 17:26:55 (EDT)


Date: Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 15:46:08 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: JHS Gabriel
Subject: ***Best Idiot of Forum***
Message:
JHS,

You've made it to the big time! Soon your intelligent, articulate, insightful, lucid, pertinent, and super-dooper post will be at Roger's House of Maharaji Drek.

I take it by the sound effects that you are leaving us?

Thanks. Have a nice trip. Nice to know ya. Happy trails. Good-bye and good luck. We're going to miss you.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Sep 22, 1999 at 00:56:22 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: Re: ***Best Idiot of Forum***
Message:
This reminds me of the French movie 'Dinner Game' where idiots are invited to dinner and the one with the best idiot wins. Apparently this is a real game in France. Perhaps JM can attest to this.

Liz

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 00:47:38 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Security Alert - email frm Microsft
Message:
Just in. Somebody is email spamming an email with the address of support@microsoft.com.

It is bogus. Do not open the attachment which is a trojan horse.

See MSNBC article for details.

Article follows:

Sept. 17 — A year 2000 e-mail hoax is circulating the Internet, and it is being described by Microsoft Corp. as a “serious issue.” The Redmond, Wash., company has found that customers are receiving bogus e-mail purporting to be from Support@Microsoft.com.

AN ATTACHMENT INCLUDES a Trojan horse that, when executed, takes a user’s personal information, including password, login and user name.

The mail reads as follows:

“From: support@microsoft.com
Subject: Microsoft Announcement
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 23:37:05 +0200
To All Microsoft Users,
We are excited to announce the Microsoft Year 2000 Counter.

Start the countdown NOW.

Let us all get in the 21 Century.

Let us lead the way to the future and we will get YOU there FASTER and SAFER.”

Microsoft encourages users not to open any e-mail attachment unless they know what it is and who it is from. The company also recommends that users keep their anti-virus files updated.

More information about the virus is available at http://www.microsoft.com/y2k/hoax/hoax2.htm.
(Microsoft is a partner in MSNBC.)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 21:05:02 (EDT)
From: TD
Email: thedefector@hotmail.com
To: All
Subject: My premie astrologer....
Message:
Just some hungover Sunday musings here...

Well, what better way to start the morning than with a read of the Sunday papers and a cup of coffee. And lo and behold, I stumbled upon Jonathan Cainer's syndicated astrology column. Now I always understood that astrologers take into account the difference between hemispheres when they do people's charts, so it's amusing that Cainer, who is based in the UK, is syndicated in Australia, and his readings for the northern hemisphere just transposed. Mind you, they don't mention that Cainer is in fact in Britain at all anywhere on the column, so I might have to e-mail the paper to ask them why and also ask the editor whether he/she knows Jon Boy is in Maharaji's cult...

Anyway, cop a load of what Jon Boy had to say about my week ahead:

'ARIES: It is one thing to trust someone, another to place total, blind faith in another person. That's not a gesture of trust, it is an abdication of responsibility. You can't expect anyone in this world to be perfect, least of all yourself. If, though, you swing to the other extreme and start assuming the worst, the fun will fizzle out of your life faster than the air from a punctured balloon. Take a risk with your faith this week, but make it a gamble you know you can recover from in the unlikely event it fails. And, generally speaking, while Jupiter and Pluto are forming their links to Mars, beware going to extremes of any kind.'

Hmmmmm. Well that's interesting advice from a premie, wouldn't you say? I wish I'd paid Jon loads of cash to get a private reading like this when I was an aspirant. Could have saved me a lot of misery, altho mind you, maybe Pluto and Jupiter were fucking with Mars at the time and thus prevented such an insight....! And he's right, the fun did fizzle out of my life like a punctured balloon, once I took it to 'the extreme' and become a devotee of his Perfect Master.

And on the topics of cults, I had an interesting conversation with a friend last night, who knew I was in Maharaji's cult for four years, and we were discussing my resume which I am currently updating. We had an witty exchange about whether I should put the fact that I was in a cult on my resume, and outline the possible benefits to a future employer of having been in one. For example, having been a premie means that I can:

· be a team player
· be loyal to the company and believe it's the only one to work for
· actively network and promote the company and its CEO to prospective clients/customers
· willingly participate in the implementation of new programs
· work persuasively with audio and visual presentations
· work alone, but only with adequate supervision [from a Perfect Boss]
· absorb information and focus on continued improvement of myself and my colleagues
· be confidential in respect to trade secrets of the company in order to maintain competitive advantage
· work long hours without a fuss and for no extra benefits

See fellow exes, it's not all that bad. Stop your complaining and look at the bright side of having been in a cult...

Regards, TD

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 06:58:38 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: TD
Subject: Get stroppy with the stargazers!
Message:
Hi Mrs TD, nice to hear from you. Great post. Here are some thoughts on astrology etc. from
Richard Dawkins:

>
On an apocryphal occasion a few years ago, a newspaper hack who had drawn the short straw and been told to make up the day's astrological advice relieved his boredom by writing under one star sign the following portentous lines: 'All the sorrows of yesteryear are as nothing compared to what will befall you today.' [although Dawkins doesn't identify the joker, I think this was actually James Randi
working on a newspaper in his youth.]

He was fired after the switchboard was jammed with panic-stricken readers, pathetic testimony to the simple trust people can place in astrology. In addition to anti-discrimination legislation, we have laws designed to protect us from manufacturers making false claims for their products. The law is not invoked in defence of simple truth about the natural world. If it were, astrologers would provide as good a test case as could be desired. They make claims to forecast the future and divine personal foibles, and they take payment for this, as well as for professional advice to individuals on important decisions. A pharmaceuticals manufacturer who marketed a birth control pill that had not the slightest demonstrable effect upon fertility would be prosecuted under the Trade Descriptions Act, and sued by customers who found themselves pregnant. Once again it feels like over-reaction, but I cannot actually work out why professional astrologers are not arrested for fraud as well as for incitement to discrimination.

The London Daily Telegraph of 18 November 1997 reported that a self-styled exorcist who had persuaded a gullible teenage girl to have sex with him on the pretext of driving evil spirits from her body had been jailed for 18 months the day before. The man had shown the young woman some books on palmistry and magic, then told her that she was jinxed: someone had put bad luck on her'. In order to exorcise her, he explained, he needed to anoint her all over with special oils. She agreed to take all her clothes off for this purpose. Finally, she copulated with the man when he told her that this was necessary to get rid of the spirits'. Now, it seems to me that society cannot have it both ways. If it was right to jail this man for exploiting a gullible young woman (she was above the legal age of consent), why do we not similarly prosecute astrologers who take money off equally gullible people; or psychic' diviners who con oil companies into parting with shareholders' money for expensive consultations' on where to drill? Conversely, if it be protested that fools should be free to hand over their money to charlatans if they choose, why shouldn't the sexual exorcist' claim a similar defence, invoking the young woman's freedom to give her body for the sake of a ritual ceremony in which, at the time, she genuinely believed?

(from 'Unweaving the Rainbow')

>
Amen to that, I say. And how about people securing for themselves obscenely affluent lifestyles by fooling thousands of innocents that they are the living incarnation of God..?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 14:15:05 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: Re: Get stroppy with the stargazers!
Message:
Wasn't it Adler, that guy who goes around the world debunking this kind of stuff, who did an experiment on this? After asking each person to give their date of birth, he handedout to groups of people typical 'horoscopes' saying that they described their particular 'sign.' The vast majority -- nearly everyone in fact -- said that the description applied to them in a significant way and generally summed up their characteristicd. It turned out, however, that Adler had given eveyone had the SAME horoscope. He did the same kind of stuff with psychics. He theorizes that most people want so badly for it to be true, and to 'fit in' with a group, that they will have super amounts of toleration for error and inconsistency. The same is true of cults, I am afraid.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 19:13:18 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: JW
Subject: The Barnum Effect
Message:
I don't recognise the name, Joe, apart from that psychoanalyst Adler who was Freud's pupil way back - and I'm sure it isn't him. But I'm familiar with the kind of study you mention. The 'Barnum Effect' is something that psychology students have to learn about, and try and avoid, when designing questionnaires.

Barnum effect. This term honors the master entrepreneur, showman and charlatan, P. J. Barnum, best known for his aphorism, 'There's a sucker born every minute.' It refers to the fact that a cleverly worded 'personal' description based on general, stereotyped statements will be readily accepted as an accurate self-description by most people. This principle is behind the fakery of fortune-tellers, astrologers and mind readers and has often contaminated Iegitimate studies of personality assessment.

(The Penguin Dictionary of Psychology)

The way I heard the name explained, though, was that Barnum and Bailey's Circus used the slogan 'Something for everyone!' - which describes the phenomenon pretty well.

Maharaji's satsangs include many such universal 'truisms' which would have the same effect on premies. So I think you're right to say the principle probably applies to cults in general.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 13:00:45 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: JW
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: The Barnum Effect
Message:
Thanks Nigel I think his name is Mortimer Adler and I think he used to be a Philosophy professor at MIT. I have one of his books, and he has had a series on PBS in the states. He is the guy who got some fame because he advised Johnny Carson to refuse to allow Uri Geller to use his own 'spoons' in a demonstration on national television. Uri sat on the 'Tonight Show' sweating bullets unable to demonstrate his supposed 'mental powers' using the objects Johnny Carson provided him. He has done the same thing to Kreskin, certain Russian and other 'psychics' and his experiments debunking astrology are well known.

He also exposed a Christian 'faith healer' who, it turns out, used his wife to interview people as they were coming into the hall and used a secret radio system so his wife coule to tell her charlatan husband about members of the audience. Adler used a receiver to pick up the transmissions and it also was exposed on TV.

Adler also said that in groups, people are more willing to accept things they might not accept if they were alone. This is part of the reason people say they experience things at cult programs, knowledge sessions, est seminars and Christian revivals.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 12:45:18 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: Bronze Age madness
Message:
Astrology is a ancient form of divination which came as an offshoot to the star charts which the ancient mariners drew in order to navigate. To make their navigation more easy, they created animals out of the star patterns with which to reference the heavens. Of course, these patterns later became known as the constellations.

At such times, the Sun was considered to be a god and the Moon, a goddess. Quite romantic actually but try telling the present astrologers that the constellations have moved round from where they were 4,000 years ago and that present day horror-scopes are still based on where the stars were in ancient times, and you'll get a blank look or will be told that 'you don't understand'.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 00:28:44 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: Best of the forum...?
Message:
I think T.D.'s positive reasons to employ ex-cult members on resume were hillarious. I vote it should be put on the Best of the forum!

Love,

Liz

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 18:20:48 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: ***Best of Forum***
Message:
Yup, it's all in the stars and only the Shadow knows, but it's a ***Best of Forum*** at Roger's House of Maharaji Drek
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 23:32:33 (EDT)
From: John cainer the liar still
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: Re: My premie astrologer....
Message:
Good Morning TD,
I liked your post and your reading of the first part
of his astrology musings.
John is a wealth of vagueness ain't he.
he says -take a risky gamble with your faith(?),
it is unlikely to fail,
dont make it so risky you cant recover.-
and
-dont expect anyone or yourself to be perfect,
you will be without fun if you swing to the other extreme(?)
and assume the worst.-

the other extreme of expecting another or yourself to
be perfect is what?
expecting them to be the opposite of perfect? what is that?

He says beware of going to extremes of any kind while
two planets are forming
thier links to a third planet.

Gravity links? what else is there?

I dont think he is an ex premie. He just tried to
keep his job paying that check.
He didnt want to be made to look stupid and a liar
by his words and deeds. I hope the spy magazine doesnt
let him off and also the other paper.

What freaking planet has to line up to tell him that
lying is off limits and not just for a brief astrological
moment.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 12:24:00 (EDT)
From: Fred
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Wit & Wisdom
Message:
THE MAN WHO WANTS TO BE KING ISN'T FITTED FOR IT.

PLATO

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Sep 23, 1999 at 07:49:04 (EDT)
From: Dr Octopus
Email: None
To: Fred
Subject: Re: Wit & Wisdom
Message:
Neither is the man who doesn't!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 10:56:50 (EDT)
From: Dr Octopus
Email: None
To: All
Subject: CHARITY COMMISSION
Message:
Re elan vital:

From the charity-commission.gov.uk site:

Hallmarks of a Well-Run Charity

'A Well-Run Charity is open in the conduct of its affairs, except where there is a need to respect confidentiality;

Except where there is a genuine need to respect confidentiality, a charity should be ready to explain and justify the policies and
practices it has chosen to adopt. Charities are favoured by the state and the public because their aims are for the benefit of the
public. In return, charities are subject to the special regulatory system of charity law, which includes measures to ensure that
charities are accountable for, and report publicly on, the use of their resources and the consequences of their activities.

Charities must comply with legislation (in so far as it applies to charities) which protects the human rights of the individual, including
those which prohibit discrimination.'

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 11:16:36 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Dr Octopus
Subject: Re: CHARITY COMMISSION
Message:
Elan Vital a charity - what a joke!

The only person benefitting from this charity is Maharaji and some of his cronies. Elan Vital as a charity is one of the biggest frauds in the UK.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 12:17:28 (EDT)
From: Fred
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Re: CHARITY COMMISSION
Message:
Has this been reported to the Charity Comission?

Fred

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Sep 23, 1999 at 07:13:57 (EDT)
From: Dr Octopus
Email: None
To: Fred
Subject: Re: CHARITY COMMISSION
Message:
Yes indeedy!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 21:48:21 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Fred
Subject: Re: CHARITY COMMISSION
Message:
Not recently but I think it's about time that the Charity Commission had another look at Elan Vital and their 'charitable works'. A word in their ear is all that is needed to bring Elan Vital to their attention again. I can oblige.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 17:44:49 (EDT)
From: Fred
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Re: CHARITY COMMISSION
Message:
Dear Dave,

I have emailed the Charity Commission U.K. to do an investigation on Elan Vital. I will let them know that Maharaji leads a flamboyant lifestyle including his own private plane. I will also mentuion the allegations of child abuse and of the numerous nervous breakdowns that occur, not to mention suicides.

If you punch in Charity Commission U.K.then Elan Vital you will see his name there. and the supposed objectives although the benefits were not defined.....I wonder why.

Fred

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 00:32:47 (EDT)
From: Fred
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Re: CHARITY COMMISSION
Message:
Good on yer Sir Dave!

Fred

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 09:18:52 (EDT)
From: Sion
Email: chrisston@mistral.co.uk
To: All
Subject: Number of followers
Message:
Dear sir/madam,
I am writing a novel and presently researching Maharaji. One primary question I have is how many followers worldwide does he currently have?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 07:35:43 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: anthginn@yahoo.com
To: Sion
Subject: Re: Number of followers
Message:
Hi Sion,

Being an historian, even when I was heavily 'cultified', I still searched for the facts, and the numbers of active premies always interested me. I always did my own head count at programmes and stuff.

So, based on my subjective research, I'd say around 40,000 people have been initiated into the cult in the UK since the early 70s.

I'd make a wild guess, and say you could half that number for the rest of Europe.

At the last programme I went, in Wembley summer 98, I counted about 4500 people. We were told that there were 1500 aspirants at the programme, so that makes a hard core of about 3,000. (Lets say they, in line with previous statements, they exaggerated by 500) that makes a bit less than 4,000 active premies.

Now let's see how these 4,000 break down. There's a hardcore of bald patch, greying wrinkly old hippies, a few of their children and a batch of 'new premies', most of whom don't stick around long.

Lets say hardcore activists (go to a video each week, go to programmes, give a bit of dosh, still have a picture of the 'Lord of the Universe' on their bedroom wall) there's about 2,500.

Put a sign on a wall, saying there's an alien from Pluto giving a talk on how to fly to the sun using 'thought' and people will walk in off the street and probably some will be convinced.

Well folk of this type walked into Maharaji's cult too, and lots of them are still there. I call them the 'Happy Clappers', they'd be at home in any cult, with its clear rules, instant loving friends full of helpful advice etc.

I'd guess, out of the remaining 2,500, over half are 'Happy Clappers' there for life.

The remaining bunch of core members, many of whom are friends, are also dwindling, as the truth slowly dawns.

It's a cult in decline Sion.

Why don't you write to Glen Whittaker and ask for his figures. He's the head of Elan Vital in the UK and was one of the first western premies.

Email me and I'll send you Elan Vital's address.

Anth the Statistician.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 11:48:15 (EDT)
From: Sion
Email: None
To: Ratweasel
Subject: Re: Number of followers
Message:
Trillions of thanks! Seriously though, can I have a more accurate figure of those currently practising the 'Knowledge' - say to the nearest 100,000 - need to know for briefly mentioning Maharaji in my novel. Would anyone know a figure or where I can gain this information?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 15:16:24 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Sion
Subject: Re: Number of followers
Message:
It is very difficult to know how many followers there are in India. But I believe tens of thousands sometimes show up at large programs there when Maharaji appears there. But, as has been said many times, following a 'guru' is quite a different thing in India than it is in the West, and in India many people have more than one guru.

In the West, Europe and North America, the number of followers has shrunk considerably over the years. In the late 70s and early 80s 15,000 or more followers would come to large, international programs in the US. Now, 20 years later, during which more people were initiated, Maharaji brags if 8,000 show up, like he did at the program in Long Beach in 1997.

Plus there are many followers who go to a program really more to see old friends and get a nostalgia hit more than really being followers -- that's what many of them have told me at least. I believe someone attended an Elan Vital 'participation' meeting in the recent past, at which Maharaji's brother, Raja Ji, said that the number of 'active' followers in the US was about 3,000. I think that's about right. Europe is probably about the same. And most of the followers are holdovers from the 70s, mostly middle-aged or older now. If you look at the audience at an EV program, the majority of the audience is well over 40. I live in one of the larger cities in the US and EV does not even schedule video events here -- that's how tiny the membership is.

Compare this to EV's claims in the mid-70s that Maharaji had over 50,000 followers in the US alone.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 15:42:52 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: I like these numbers! Now, show me the money!
Message:
Yes, I think that I like JW's numbers better than mine.

I was at a participation meeting just a few years ago and I believe that the number of regular contributors in U.S. was between 500 and 1000 where 500 was a solid number that Maharaji counted on.

Seeing JW's numbers it raises questions as to how Elan Vital must be suffering financially. Certainly, along the way they've been able to do well enough to provide Maharaji with millions and millions to accommodate the only growing aspect of Maharaji's cult - his outrageous ultra-luxurious lifestyle.

It would appear that the number of events or programs that Maharaji appears at is on a continued decline and there is more use of satellite global broadcasts. Justifying the 30 million dollar G4 is difficult to understand. However, it is doubtful that Elan Vital owns the luxury aircraft or much of anything for that matter as assets are most likely owned by third parties and leased back as necessary and perhaps operate at a loss to cover what profit centers there are.

Who knows? It's gotta be all smoke and mirrors, but that expensive wristwatch collection that Maharaji has is quite real.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 15:30:56 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: And Also
Message:
I believe Elan Vital's own statistics showed that in the US only something like 70 or 80 people were initiated into Maharaji's cult in 1997 and something like 25O were initiated in 1998. I would suggest that many more than that left the cult during the same periods.

The statistics on Maharaji's website are very misleading -- note for example, the graphs that show the number of countries he has gone to. It's kind of a meaningless statistic to begin with, and the graphs are WAY out of proportion to the increase. Also, the number of new people initiated into the cult are mostly in India and other countries where there is a large Indian ex-patriate population. Also, keep in mind, that Maharaji's own brother, Sat Pal (formerly Bal Bhagwan Ji) also claims to be the Perfect Master and is competing for the same devotees. In fact, the rivalry is SO great that neither Maharaji nor Sat Pal ever mentions the other in their well-doctered and misleading biographies.

The statistic about the thousands of people who have attended programs is also very misleading. Elan Vital basically just counts the same people over and over.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 11:53:54 (EDT)
From: gmom
Email: None
To: Sion
Subject: Re: Number of followers
Message:
I do not know. Try looking on the history section of ex premie.og which has a link at the top of this page. I suppose you could try to contact the organization too?

Catweasel is a hostile premie. He is not going to help you unless you are writing a pro guru book about THAT experience and gratitude and such.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 11:53:05 (EDT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Sion
Subject: Re: Number of followers
Message:
I would post an educated guess that to the nearest 100,000 of 'practicing' premies is less than 100,000. Many of the communities have folded over the years. Catweasel is a premie and the tend to count thmeselves every time they attend a function so i cat attended 20 satsangs or videos this month thats 20 followers, some us prefer to count that as mone follower.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 14:34:41 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Ben Lurking
Subject: Re: Number of followers
Message:
Historically, I believe that Divine Light Mission in the early 70's stated millions, perhaps, 3 million. I think that this was quoted in one of the early propaganda films. Of course, this number included India where apparently everyone has at least one guru.

My guess that in the U.S. the all time high was 50,000 or it might have been just 30,000.

Maharaji's website has some statistics about how many people he has given Knowledge to in recent years. In the west it would appear that very few people are receiving Maharaji's Knowledge with the numbers of about 2000. In India Maharaji has been known to hand out Knowledge to 2500 people at a time doing two such sessions in a day. Check Maharaji's site to verify this.

I would say based on attendance of large programs in the U.S. in the hay days of Knowledge that at most were 30,000. Probably less like 15,000. At recent major events at Long Beach which were attended by people world wide I would guess at numbers of around 15,000 or less.

Excluding Indian premies I would say that world wide there are less than 50,000 practicing Maharaji's Knowledge, maybe even 30,000.

Where did they all go?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 07:40:30 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: Playing the numbers
Message:
Hi barney,

I saw a leaflet in India, in 71/2, that a premie showed me on Vagator beach, in Goa, claiming, when Maharaji returned to India after his first visit to the West, there were six million devotees waiting to greet him in Delhi.

I think this was a bit of an exageration.

Although numbers are have been in decline for some years, I hear there are lots of new aspirants in South Africa, where the white premies pressure their black servants into watching videos with them.

Anth Playing the Numbers.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 08:11:17 (EDT)
From: Sion
Email: chrisston@mistral.co.uk
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Playing the numbers
Message:
Dear AJW, Barney, Anth, JW and others,

Thanks for responding to my question about numbers of followers. I had no idea the head count was so low. Leaving aside India I was expecting a higher number. To find a true figure, I realise will be difficult. I may contact Glenn Whittaker. If he offers me a world-wide number probably the safest thing is then to halve it.

Thanks again for the help.

Sion.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 15:46:21 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Sion
Subject: Unholy Numbers
Message:
Dear Sion & All,

Sai Baba has millions (truly) of diciples in India and world wide. It doesn't make him right. He's just better at hypnotism than m. These millions of followers follow him because he is supposed to produce cashew nuts & watches ect. out of thin air. I've never been able to see what all the fuss about. It must be some form of trickery wouldn't you think?

Love,

Liz

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 14:01:44 (EDT)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: About Sai Baba
Message:
Liz,
Sai Baba is much worse hoax than Prem Pal.

He is an extremely skilled illusionist, pretending to have paranormal skills.

He has been thoroughly exposed by the famous 'Antiguru' in India, the leading person in the Indian CSISOP, Dr. Premamand. He has written much about Sai Baba, both in the Indian Skeptic, and he has exposed him in books, too. There is information about this on the internet.

Dale Beyerstein is another person (from Vancouver? I'm not sure) who has written a book which is exposing Sai Baba. It is sold by the Indian CSISOP, but it also exists in a net-version which can be downloaded.

Furthermore, there is a film, revealing how Sai Baba is tricking.

There are also allegations about murder. Some of his nearest disciples were killed - possibly because they got tired of the hoax and were going to expose him. The police in Bangalore, however, took Sai Bab'a side. He is so big in India, it is almost impossible to touch him. Even some high ranking politicians believe in Sai Baba.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 13:59:27 (EDT)
From: closet premies
Email: None
To: Sion
Subject: There is more
Message:
There are those that dont go to local events.
They sometimes go to his events when they are close.
They are in a limbo of unresolution on this whole
maharaji subject.
Push a button and they will disgorge old programming.
I have seen that with numerous old timers that dont
come around. Even after years.

If y2k was to trigger a recession by next summer or fall,
and it went into severe recession and a global
increase in poverty and lack of hope, p rawat could
have a resurgence and get another shot at lord of the
millenium.
Definately still a possible senario. Not so much here
in the usa, but in all those countries where the delusion
runs high about him.
Mili may not be able to jump start DLM in Croatia, but
rawat is still playing on this living master card and
he will never stop.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 08:34:26 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Sion
Subject: divide by four
Message:
Hi Sion,

If you get any joy from Glen, remember that Elan Vital count turnstile clicks, not people. So, if you go through the turnstile three times at a three day event, you're probably going to go down as '3 participants'. Likewise, in your community, if you go to four videos a month, you could be counted four times.

Play safe, divide by 4.

Anth the Cynical Statistician

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 08:19:43 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: Question for URL
Message:
Hi URL,

Down below somewhere I asked you a question. You responded to my post, but didn't answer the question. I'll try again.

If Maharaji knew about, and covered up Jagdeo's paedophilic activities, keeping him in circulation, where he could use his position of authority in the cult to sexually abuse young girls, would that be his 'lila' URL. A sort of test, to make you surrender more, on some sort of 'cosmic' level.

What do you think URL, lila or not?

Try and answer the question I asked this time, not the one you'd like me to have asked.

Anth the Looking for an Answer.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 15:41:12 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Question for URL
Message:
I'd consider answering what is really a stupid and apearently glib question if I thought you really wanted an answer and if I hadn't been asked in such a typically pompous manner. But alas, I don't have any time today for your kind of bullshit Anth. Try me tomorrow after you've come down.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 17:01:50 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: Touch a nerve did I?
Message:
Maybe you're in denial here URL.

My question wasn't glib.

That's twice you've dodged answering it.

What's the problem?

In denial?

My name is Anth. I used to be in a cult...

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 07:34:55 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: AJW
To: All
Subject: Dear Glen, all the letters.
Message:
Hi,

I had some private correspondance with Glen Whittaker, organiser of Elan Vital in the UK, about Mahatma Jagdeo's paedophile activities, involving children who were in my care, as a schoolteacher, some years ago.

This correspondance came into the public arena with the first letter from Elan Vital, retyped below.

Elan Vital seem extremely paranoid about the attention being given to this matter on the forum. Jagdeo has been reported to the Police, and the British press have been interested in the story for some weeks, increasing their fears that this matter may somehow reflect on the cult and its master.

The two letters from Elan Vital, and my reply to the first letter, have already been published on the forum, but I thought I'd put all four up together, so they can be read in context.

Anth the Archivist

FIRST LETTER FROM ELAN VITAL

26 August 1999

Dear Anth,

I’ve noticed that you’ve made allegations about Mahatma Jagdeo, on the ex-premie.org website. These allegations are that he was involved in paedophilic activities.

You will recall that when you raised the matter with me privately in the early part of the year, my response was that I knew of no evidence to substantiate the claim or even to suspect that it was true. I am of course concerned that the allegations and your strength of belief being such that you have made this allegation publicly. As a result of this, I have conducted some enquiry but can find no evidence to substantiate the allegation, including any record of any contemporaneous or later complaint made by the alleged victim.

Allegations of this nature are of course extremely damaging. If untrue, they may destroy the life and reputation of an old man and of course may also cause damage to any victims of the alleged acts who might rather put the matter behind them or have it approached more discretely.

If however the allegations are true we would of course deplore any such activity and agree they should be exposed. If you have any further information which would assist an inquiry let me have that information as we would wish to pursue the matter with appropriate discretion as so as to cause least further distress to the alleged victim.

I should make it absolutely clear that Elan Vital was not aware of the allegations until you raised them recently, which raises the question of why you waited so may years before making them, and did not and would not approve of or condone such appalling behaviour.

Please take care that any publication on the internet or implication that Elan Vital or Maharaji knew of, approved of or condoned any such paedophile behaviour would be false and very damaging. We would have no option but to take legal advice.

Yours sincerely,

Glen Whittaker.

MY REPLY

Hi Glen,

In response to your letter of 26th August, 99, I did indeed make allegations on the ex-premie website, last year, on November 1st, in my ‘Journey’, based on communication with a parent and ex pupil of Unity School, earlier that year. I’m sure you remember when my story appeared on the Internet, as you wrote to me about it soon afterwards. (I’m not sure if by reminding you of this, you’ll have to take legal advice, but what the hell.)

In your letter you mentioned that you conducted some enquiry. I’d be interested to know what form this took. You knew that the alleged offence took place at Unity School 74/75, as this information was in what I’d published in November. Did you ask anyone who was at Unity School at that time about what happened? If so, who? Both Dot and I were there, why didn’t you ask either of us? It doesn’t sound like a very thorough enquiry to me Glen. Do you even know the names of his ‘alleged’ victims.(there is more than one).

You say that allegations of this nature are extremely damaging. They are only damaging if they are untrue. Sexual abuse of young children is extremely damaging, and allegations of such acts, if true, are the first step in healing the damage done.

You also say if the allegations are untrue, they may destroy the life and reputation of an old man and may cause damage to any victims who might rather put the matter behind them or have it approached more discreetly. Surely Glen, if the allegations are untrue, how can ‘not putting the matter behind them’ cause distress, if nothing actually happened.

I do have further information that will assist an enquiry Glen. There are reports on the Ex-premie website of offences commited by Jagdeo in the United States, in the Journey’s section, in the Journey by Gs mom. You should read it.

More detailed information about the crimes and the victims have been given to the Police, who’ve probably contacted you by now.

I’ve been in close communication with both victims, at every stage since this affair floated to the surface of the pool. I can assure you that they are both extremely glad that things have finally been taken seriously and been brought out into the open.

You say that Elan Vital wasn’t aware of these ‘alleged offences’ until recently, and then hint at legal action if I disagree. If you read G’s mom’s Journey, on Ex-Premie.org you’ll see she told two instructors, both close to Maharaji, who have both since been named on the Internet. The instructors were Randy Prowdy and Judy Osbourne, both of whom I know, respect and like. I’m quite sure they would have passed the information on.

You say you’d like to pursue the matter, you could start by asking Randy and Judy what happened, who they told and what the response was. You could also make an announcement through your organisation, worldwide, that any possible victims, or parents of children may have been sexually abused by Mahatma Jagdeo should contact you. You could then pass this information to the police.

The reason I did nothing for 25 years Glen, was because I didn’t know about it until last year. As you’ve noticed, I’ve now done something.

So, I guess you’d better go and get some legal advice.

Anth the Whistle Blower

SECOND LETTER FROM ELAN VITAL

5th September 1999

Dear Anth,

Thank you for your response. Although you did not, as I requested, provide information on the name(s) of the alleged victims, or any details of the alleged offences, your news that any information is now in the hands of the police is very welcome. If we can ssist them in any way we shall be happy to do so, ans it would help to know details of whom the allegation has been reported to. On our part, we are also seeking advice from the relevant authorities in the field to ensure appropriate actions are taken.

I assure you Anth, we have researched extensively by asking people in this organisation and in the American Elan Vital about these allegations, but so far no-one, including people you mention, has any recollection of them. This is not to suggest that the alleged incidents did not take place.

Despite what you may bekieve, the sole aim of Elan Vital is to promote an inner experience of peace and an enrichment of the experience of what it means to be alive.

I would like to re-iterate that your allegations are as upsetting to us as they are to you and should the alleged victim in the case you speak of come forward we will offer her all the help we can in co-operation with the relevant authorities.

Yours, sincerely,

Glen Whittaker.

AND MY REPLY, SENT LAST WEEK.

Hi Glen,

Looks like you’ve been to see your lawyers. You requested the names of Jagdeo’s victims. I didn’t give them to you and I have no intention of giving them to you. I’ll try to explain why.

Imagine, as an 8 or 9 year old child, you are taken to live in a place run by a religious cult. Or maybe you’re a 14-year-old teenager who’s become interested in meditation or something, and you start going along to cult meetings. Whatever, you end up being sexually abused by a full time representative of that cult.

Imagine, in the case of ‘g-mom’, after you’ve been abused, you report it to another full time cult official (‘mahatma’ or ‘instructor’ or ‘initiator’, whatever the current jargon was) in the case of ‘g-mom’, this person was from her home town and knew her personally. You ask him to tell your master. You meet him later and he tells you the master was informed. The instructor who assaulted you is still at large, so you tell another instructor. She gets back to you a week later, and tells you, ‘Yes, the master knew already and was glad that this was not a new episode’. Or maybe in the case of the 9 year old, her parent tells yet another ‘mahatma’, and aquaintance of the master, and nothing ever gets back to them either.

The years roll by. November 98, I publish allegations about Jagdeo on the Internet. (I wasn’t the first.) August 99, Jagdeo is reported to the police, the press get interested. , Lo and behold, the two ‘instructors’ ‘can’t remember’ anything that they were told, can’t remember telling Maharaji, and can’t remember telling the victim what they’d done. Not only that, the cult are suddenly concerned and want the victim’s names.

(And didn’t you or Heather tell the ‘Express’ that Elan Vital was nothing to do with Divine Light Mission?)

Forget it Glen. They’ve lost faith in you. Your main aim seems to be keeping your master out of this. Their experience tells them the cult cares little for the victims of child abuse.

If you’re really concerned about sorting this mess out, and, as you say, assisting the Police, you could start by telling them where Jagdeo is living. Is he still in the ashram in India? Is he still a Mahatma? Is he still a ‘premie’. Does he still do special ‘children’s knowledge sessions’ ? Does he still have access to children.? Do the Police in India know about his pedophiliac activities?

Your third paragraph is interesting Glen. You say, ‘The sole aim of Elan Vital is to promote an inner experience of peace and an enrichment of the experience of what it means to be alive.’ Hmmmmn, haven’t you missed a bit out there, about the teachings of Maharaji or something, that justifies the personality cult that surrounds him? He’s the one who gives you this ‘experience of what it means to be alive’, and ‘inner peace’, through his teachings, right?

You say in your last paragraph, how disturbing the allegations are, and if the ‘alleged victim’ comes forward (there are serious allegations of offences against at least three young girls), you will offer her all the help you can, with the co-operation with the authorities. I’ve already explained why they don’t want to talk to you, but are happy to talk to the Police.

Whether Maharaji knew about Jagdeo’s pedophilic activities or not was never an issue with me. You’re the one who brought that up.

I’m not ‘Anti Maharaji’. Now I no longer worship him, as a fellow human being I have sympathy for his plight and I hope he sorts himself out one day. He’s a cult victim too, and I hold no personal animosity towards him whatsoever.

Yours truly,
Anth the Unruly

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 01:21:44 (EDT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Anth
Message:
Thanks for your integrity and responsibility
and your always interesting posts.
On behalf of those we dont know, thanks for your efforts
to unearth this.

You know, I have 4 boys here, the 18 yr old is a step child
that was a total misbehaviour case when I met him at
age 5. It wasnt till age 10 when I said 'Look!
he is acting like a kid!' (not that he was recovered),
I didnt know all the things that drove him nuts before
I met him. But he spent 2 years at a facility to
recover and during the first parents meeting, where all
the parents of the boys there were together, every single
one of the other boys at that facility for kids in
crisis were victims of child sexual abuse.
We were the only ones
that only suspected it. Every other parent there had
confirmation of sexual abuse that in thier opinion
was a strong factor in the behaviour of thier young child.
I was stunned.
I had no idea having sex at a very young or inappropriate
age or way could cause this sort of reaction.
I guess I figured it was just a momentary thing.
Apparently not.

Maybe some just coast through, but from that parents
meeting, I can say with surity, not all!

I have a 22 year old here that I took in at age 10.
HE was raised by a mom that was into heroin and crack
and serious alchohol abuse. All he went through didnt
wierd him out like the one that also had the sexual abuse
--from his dad. The instructor, the living lords great
soul, surely had a similar important status to the ones
HE messed with as little Mike had with his dad.

I do a good job with Mike if I say so myself, somehow
I allow for anything from him and just (most always)
give him kindness, and some straight talk.

You know, if the boys at that place were older, you
could say, well, they were sort of programmed to think
this was wrong. But these kids were really little when
the stuff happened (or started happening) to them.
It wasnt a programmed response. It was some sort of
response that I dont understand enough to say.

Being an educater, maybe you know something about that.
Or others have a thought or perception about that.

When he was a little older, one night, watching tv with
me, he without warning blurted out an admission.
I called his therapist and she said just let him
talk without pressing him on it. But he hasnt said anything
further.

Anyway, I'm glad you are like you are.
I probably have a divine times with your picture in it.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 13:42:34 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: Repercussions of child sex abuse
Message:
bb: Thank you so much for your post. One potential repercussion of childhood sexual abuse is that the abused children grow up to sexually abuse children themselves. I have seen this repeatedly in the folks who are on death row in California, and in my friends' cases across the country. Not all sexually abused kids grow up to abuse others. I could not even begin to say what percentage do. The most important fact is that the abuse does pre-dispose some of those kids to doing it to others. Abused kids often abuse drugs, alcohol, have a difficult time forming bonds with others. There is much literature about the effects of abuse within the psychiatric community. Typically, the worse the abuse, the worse the effect on the abused child.

Marianne

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 11:12:30 (EDT)
From: Hey Drek how bout adding bb's
Email: None
To: roger Executive Drek
Subject: response to Anth in *best* nt
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 15:17:32 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: ***Best of Forum***
Message:
Roger's ***Best of Forum*** at House of Maharaji Drek
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 11:37:19 (EDT)
From: Fred
Email: None
To: Glen
Subject: Dear Glen.
Message:
Dear Glen,

I would like to ask you why you haven't contacted Deepak in India and found out the whereabouts of Jagdeo. If you have already I would hope you have asked Jagdeo about the allegations. Is he in India or South Africa?

Why all the cover ups - has it just become an old habit with all the Elan Vital P.R. types?

Remember why we got into this Glen - to know the truth.

Not some fake truth that makes the truth seem unimportant.

Regards,

Fred

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 10:17:33 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Getting down to it
Message:
Dear AJW,

Thank you for posting the letters. Your efforts have put form around my feelings and I am with you in your quest to get to the truth of the matter. Somebody had to be the spokesperson and you are it.
I can appreciate and support your non-attacking approach. It has more power than unbridled anger.

Take care,

Shpremie support for the abused

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 06:58:26 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Thanks Sandy (nt)
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 13:43:39 (EDT)
From: kmdarling
Email: unlimited@aol.com
To: AJW etc.
Subject: Re: support for the abused
Message:
Dear AJW and all others in this conversation including Glen,

The only one of you I remember personally is Glen Whitaker. I am Katie, formerly Jones and then Baier and now Darling. I was an English premie (now living in U.S. for 20-some years) who was sent by MataJi to Spain and then by Maharaji to South America. Remember me Glen?
My story is in journeys under Katie Masters-Darling, I think. My website is www.motherwave.com.

Thanks, all of you, for having the courage and stamina to go into these old “secrets” in an articulate, and as someone mentioned, non-attacking, way. After leaving the cult in the early 80’s I became a therapist and as part of the unravelling of my experience and those of others who came to me, who included many premies and instructors, I became very interested in the whole subject of how cults parallel dysfunctional families. There is a lot of good writing on this which I have found very helpful. One of the best sources of this information is some old isues of the magazine Yoga Journal, who pioneered a lot of the “outings” of abusive gurus and cults. There is also incredible information somewhere in cyberspace (it’s been years) in which various cults debate their gurus’ abuses. I have read long threads in the noticeboards of Sogyal Rinpoche and also followers of Sidha Yoga, in which people argue with each other. The discussion goes something like this: Former follower: “I got diddled(sexually abused) by the Guru, or by his representative.“ (Reply from faithful follower:“ Why do you have to be so negative, why can’t you put it all behind you?“ OR: “You liar, this is literally impossible since he/she is God!”

I read these threads many years ago, but I’m sure many similar discussions are still going on. I recently spent 2 weeks in a yoga ashram to have a rest. A newcomer asked the swami about their late guru’s sexual abuses and the swami started lambasting her––even though in this particular case it’s a well-known and acknowledged fact, reported by about a dozen teenage girls, that their “Satguru” had this hidden flaw. The whole room was snarling in palpable hostility towards this “troublemaker.”

It’s interesting to see this dynamic starting to emerge around our Ex-Lord! I am really interested in supporting anyone who feels they were abused in any way in having a place where they can speak it out. Not necessarily to bring legal action (unless it’s really appropriate) but to bring the healing that is still needed, even 25 years later. Things don’t go away with time, by being covered up, much as abusers and their enablers might wish so. (Glen, don’t be the enabler to an abuser!) I’ve worked with clients in their 80’s who are still suffering from some abuse from their childhoods––and it’s not so much the FACT of the abuse, but the denial of it, that causes it to stick in their throat, or somewhere in their emotional body.

I remember in London in the old Palace of Peace days, when I spent a few months in a Dulwich ashram between being in Spain and South America, there was a Mahatma who came over from India, who was being waited on by a female premie. He sexually abused her in some way, and was immediately sent back to India. I remember her telling me this, and the strongest part of the memory is the anguish that I felt from her. She was definitely not receiving any support at all, emotionally, and the emotional climate, as I recall it, was pretty unbelievably chilly. I wonder how she is doing? I can’t remember the Mahatma’s name, or hers, although both are on the tip of my tongue. I am mentioning this because I have all kinds of memories of various kinds of abuse, and I want to invite people to express theirs. This was a huge cult that we were part of. Sometimes the Western programs had thousands of people at them. Lots of major and minor abuses happened. While there is now in our culture a fairly well-established forum for people to get help with clearing old memories of family sexual and other abuse, it is much less well-known that there is a whole slew of people who lived this out in cults, with the abuser that everyone is protecting being not the physical but the spiritual father. In families, siblings also often abuse each other, often acting out the abuse they are receiving from a parent, and this is another kind of abuse that occurs in cults.

My personal memories of 12 years of full-time service, satsang and meditation contain hundreds of examples of what might be called “sibling” abuse––situations where people in charge of other people’s lives, on behalf of the Lord, as it were, treated me and others with incredible cruelty and heartlessness, in the name of detachment and service, no doubt. This inhumanity between people is probably the biggest traumatic memory I still carry traces of even after nearly 15 years of working with quite leading edge therapeutic and, yes, spiritual technologies to clear this imprinting out of my nervous system. I feel pretty clear, but sometimes I have these dreams where a bunch of people are fighting each other to try to get close to the central “Source person“ (who was Maharaji for many of us for a long time).

I have some suggestions of kinds of abuse that people might be healed by ”coming out” about.

- If you lived with Mahraji you know that he treated many of the people around him in tyrannical, often shaming ways. For example, if you were gay and lived with him, what did he call you?
- If you were an initiator/instructor, you were terrified to your very soul by Maharaji in the name of “For Your Own Good” (read this excellent book on child abuse by Alice Miller). Remember the Tucson Initiators meeting? (I happened to be sort of half-there, and I saw and felt you when you came out of it, and some of you told be the verbal abuse you had received, and you probably have Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder from this unless you’ve done something about it).
- Were you an ashram premie? Were your basic needs met? Did you have your health needs met? Were you made to feel that your health needs were costing too much when the money ought to be spent on a new luxury vehicle for God Incarnate? This is incredibly demeaning to your human value! If you don’t see this as abuse, you are still in the middle of it!
- Did you live around Maharaji and observe his alcoholism? Were you part of the crew who was allowed to see the “X-rated” stuff that Maharaji did (this phrase, “X-rated” was the code used by the people around Maharaji to designate something like your “security clearance”). The X-rated clearance people were allowed to see (or actually prepare) the bottles of brandy and other drugs that Maharaji had to have laid out after a program. I learned all this from someone close to Maharaji that I was very close to for a long time. If you were there, come out!
- If you lived with Maharaji, did he ever physically abuse you? Example: in India, he would play “lilas” in which he fed food containing stones and rocks to his devotees, who were, of course “blissed-out” at this divine game. I travelled with a BaiJi who recounted this, and was clearly confused between the pain and rage from the abuse, and the need to realize that it was “for her own good.”
- Do you know about Maharaji’s financial abuses? I have friends who worked in accounting positions who roll their eyes at the memory.
- When Maharaji reopened the ashrams in the late seventies, did you feel coerced into leaving your family to be a true devotee? What effect did this have on your life, emotionally?
- When the ashrams closed, did you find yourself lost, without financial, emotional or mental resources to cope with life, having given up everything, you thought, for life, and understood that the deal was that by doing this, Maharaji would be your lifelong refuge. Are you still recovering from this? Had you foresworn education or an inheritance or relationships which has made it hard for you to function successfully? Do you feel ashamed about this, like something is wrong with you? YOU WERE BETRAYED AND ABUSED!

Ultimately we’re all responsible for our choices, blah blah blah, and it’s all a big learning experience, blah, blah, blah. But part of getting the real learning out of the whole thing is to unravel it, not just leave it as a knot somewhere deep inside you, sapping your energy and perhaps eventually killing you off, or at least diminishing your joy and aliveness. All the bliss and joy and hopeful vision that you ever experienced with Maharaji came from inside YOU and is still available. You can reaccess it. Part of the journey is to tell the truth about what happened. That’s the best way to really “put it behind you.”

Hope this helps someone. If you e-mail me, please put the name KATIE in the subject line, as AOL has so much junk mail I don’t know what’s real.

Love Katie Masters-Darling
unlimited@aol.com
www.motherwave.com

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 12:05:36 (EDT)
From: gmom
Email: None
To: kmdarling
Subject: great post Katie
Message:
Thank you Katie for a very insightful post.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 05:50:36 (EDT)
From: Mark
Email: None
To: kmdarling
Subject: Re: support for the abused
Message:
Katie
Thank you for an extremely lucid post on the essence of cult victimhood. Anth's inclusion of PremPal as principally a cult victim as well, also hit the nail on the head.We were all actors in a XXX movie.
I just returned from a few days in Miami, and it was like visiting Avalon after King Arthur's death. NO one is fully behind Mr M anymore. Its terribly similar to Clinton. 'Well despite this...' or 'I don't think he's THAT bad...' etc.Even the remaining faithful have by and large become 'High Holiday'premies.But its hard for them to move on.
I heard from a bookbuying friend that two Amtext bookbuyers met on a campus in Virginia. One asked the other to sit down, and proceeded to unload the fact that he just couldn't keep it up anymore, that he saw after 25 years, that it's all been a 'swiz'. The other said yeah, he'd come to the same conclusion a year before.And remember, the Amtext bookbuyers are the equivilant to Saddam Hussein's Republican Guard ! And yes, it seems that they too are surrendering in their foxholes.

Clearly,as that great american yogi, Yogi Berra, said,'it ain't over til its over. But really, its over. Maharaji has been forced to lie and stonewall regarding his truth,claims and behaviors. He can and should initiate his own Mea Culpa before some version of Reverend Moon Expose gets put on TV.
There are a lot of wonderful people who have invested their sincerity and 'all' to this.& Like Katie suggests , there is an enormous amount of stagnation and repressed stuff in the lives of the remaining half-hearted flock that could be greatly assisted with Mr Maharaji coming clean.And confusion in many who are seeing that it was always THEM having experiences, and really Maharaji was spiritually raping them by insinuating himself as the Master of their lives ( 'Heir of the great Lineage of Sri Maharaji- who had a lucrative 6 year fling by independantly dubbing himself Perfect Master and quickly amassing substantial wealth and a young female travelling 'companion.' )
If Maharaji can unburden himself of the deceit that he has carried for close to 25 years now,Then the great healing and liberation can truly begin.
And the Great Impostor can have a second chance.
Who knows? Even Nixon was eventually forgiven.

Mark the friend of Truth

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 12:25:21 (EDT)
From: LdM
Email: None
To: kmdarling
Subject: Re: Thanks
Message:
Dear Katie

Thanks so much for your post. Your clarity on this subject has silenced the usual onslaught of premie insults. I would like to email you at some time. I hope that's OK.

Lee

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 11:50:20 (EDT)
From: Iisa the opportunist
Email: None
To: kmdarling
Subject: Re: support for the abused
Message:
Dang it ..Wow... now there's an idea ... now why didn't I think of that one... create your VERY QWN CULT!!! .. BRILLIANT!!!:))
Get some nearby floating spook to name it something cool n' trendy.. declare yourself the high priestess (ok then.. therapist will do)..start waving yer arms about and say 'Come on people of this world - tell me your sorrows and we can wave our arms and get touchy feely - but don't forget to bring lots of money and dirty stories'
Now who was it that said 'where there's muck there's money.' Was it Krishna or somebody?
Hee Hee... now I'm off to my healing circle to contact the dead for my business plan. :)))
See Ya.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 07:12:07 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: kmdarling
Subject: Great Post Kate
Message:
Hi Kate,

I remember you well from the old days.

Thanks for your post. It points us in the right direction, and raises some very pertinent points.

I've got a wierd feeling that there are a lot more cult abuse victims around who may be starting to consider coming forward and telling what happened to them.

One of the saddest aspects of this affair has been how Elan Vital officials main concern seems to be to protect their master- not the victims or even the offender.

Thanks again for your post Katie.

Anth the Blast from the Past

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 22:21:52 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: kmdarling
Subject: Have you read this, URL? Any thoughts? (nt)
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 15:06:29 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: kmdarling
Subject: Thank you Katie
Message:
Terrific post, Katie. I think it sums up the damage Maharaji and his cult did better than just about anything I've seen to date. Thanks again. It really was abuse. The only thing I would add is that I also have to deal with the fact that I actually, mostly out of fear or doubting Maharaji the living lord, participated in some of the abusive behavior. Not physical abuse, but definitely psychological/spiritual abuse. Let's face it, the whole premise of Maharaji's cult is abusive to the respect every human being deserves.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 14:54:21 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: kmdarling
Subject: It wasn't Honesdale was it?
Message:
Dear Katie,

Lovely to hear from you. How was the Ashram? Was it the Swami Rama one in Honesdale? I have some interesting information about that one. Sounds very similar from the article I read in a Yoga Journal during the '80's.

I would like to correspond with you via email if possible. I am still interested in Yoga 'union with God' but cannot stomach the goings on that inevitably take place in a hierachical situation like Honesdale & Elan Vital.

Jai to the God within!

Liz

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 18:42:46 (EDT)
From: kmdarling
Email: unlimited@aol.com
To: Liz
Subject: Re: It wasn't Honesdale was it?
Message:
no, it wasn’t Honesdale.

It was the Shoshoni ashram near Boulder, and their “root gurus” are Muktanand and one “Rudi”, a Western guru. Muktanand is known to have sexually abused several teenage girls. Don’t know about Rudi except rumors.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 00:38:42 (EDT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: kmdarling
Subject: Re: It wasn't Honesdale was it?
Message:
The event you are having at a berkshire location might be
at the yoga place that the yogi was booted for
sexual and other behaviours.
Yogi desi amrit perhaps?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 14:18:08 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: kmdarling
Subject: ***Best of the Forum***, please?
Message:
Katie,

Thank you very much on such a clear post that covers about every issue there is regarding Maharaji's cult.

I'd like to ask you if it is ok to post at Roger's House of Maharaji Drek to ensure that it is available for future reading. I'll assume that it is ok unless you say otherwise.

I was in the cult for nearly 25 years. It played great havoc with my life. Knowledge was doing everything that I had hoped for. Of course, I was expecting too much. However, I was putting all my eggs in this one basket. Yes, much of my misunderstanding was my own fault and I constantly blamed myself.

I cannot believe that after a program Maharaji would retire to his 'X-Rated' items of enjoyment when as a premie I would feel guilty going out to dinner with some old friends instead of returning immediately to my hotel to meditate.

Thank you!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 12:09:40 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: ***Best*** of ***Bests***
Message:
I think you should now have a section like that. And that one would be one of them...
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 00:41:40 (EDT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: Re: ***Best of the Forum***, please?
Message:
Well Drek,
this is one that I cant confirm, but rumour had it that
the lord required oral sex from the missus before
speaking at some of those events.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 13:54:16 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: kmdarling
Subject: Well said, Katie!
Message:
Nice to hear from you again.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 07:10:52 (EDT)
From: Seymour
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Real molecules
Message:
Nigel's recent story about the initiator Matteus( I vaguely remember him ) also reflected one of the many dangers of being a cult devotee...
'His mother was taken gravely ill while he was running one of those Knowledge 'weekends' (which often ran to four of five days, as mine did). A phone call came through and a premie managed to interupt Matteus to tell him his mother was probably dying. Matteus replied: 'I am busy doing the Lord's work' - and wouldn't even come to the phone'
We were always told, and I bet it is still implied, that the first priority in life is to practice knowledge and serve the master - even if you nearest and dearest are dying.There is a sort of logic to this as with Krishna on the battlefield saying that you can slay your relatives because all is illusion or Maya - a cosmic chess game in which death is just like taking your opponents pawn. When the game is over you can both go down the pub and have a good time - being good sportsmen ( or women) there is not bitterness about who won or lost - it was just a game. This is the underlying philosophy of Maharji and many religions. It's an attractive belief, like going to heaven if you are 'good', but has no basis in reality. And even more suspect than this belief is the game is being totally controlled by some omnipresent, omniscient, super-powerfull being - and that the guru is either that being or has a direct line of communication with the great one.
Those of us who have become 'ex-premies' know that we made a big mistake and as Deadeye Dick said in some Vonnegut Novel 'This is my principal objection to life, I think: It is too easy, when alive, to make perfectly horrible mistakes.' - but I am still not sure if there were any real experiences during my time as a believer, except for the relationships with fellow humans.
I have spent the last year or two reading everything I could about evolution, genetics, DNA etc. etc. and have become a wiser person as a result but, as I have said before, it all seems a bit dry and I miss the magic of mystical experience. It is a dwindling hope, but there is still a spark that there may be more to life than a bunch of molecules that have come together by natural selection. For this reason I try and remain tolerant, ( and sometimes a little jealous ) of friends who have faith in something 'beyond'
Having been through the premie experience, however, I will never base my perspective on anything that arises from hearsay, superstition, wishfull thinking or even my sensory receptors without some rational backup.
Cheers
Seymour

p.s. Thanks, Way, I did manage to catch your post and it's nice to know that you share my 'humanist' views - another Vonnegut quote..
'Take Care of the People, and God Almighty Will Take Care of Himself.' - Sirens of Titan

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 07:04:50 (EDT)
From: NIGEL
Email: NIGEL@REDCROW.DEMON.CO.UK
To: Seymour
Subject: SEYMOUR, READ THIS TODAY, IF POSSIBLE...
Message:
Sorry, I'm not shouting - just trying to catch your attention!

Folks in the UK can catch Richard Dawkins on the repeat of Paxo's 'Start the Week', tonight (Monday) at 9.30 pm on Radio 4. Some interesting discussions - other guests include Al Alvarez.

He discusses these very issues - including the so-called 'bleakness' of the scientific perspective.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 02:21:49 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Seymour
Subject: Re: Real molecules
Message:
Seymour,

I'm currently reading a book that you might find interesting. It's called 'Brain States' by Tom Kenyon. I don't know how much you know about the brain and how human experience is embodied in it, but you might want to learn more, if you know little, so you can view the mystical experience from that perspective.

'Brain States' is a good primer and even offers a multitude of techniques for changing brain states so you can alter your mood and put yourself in a better frame of mind. When you get down to it, isn't that what the whole premie trip is about, only ten times more intense and a thousand times more insane?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 15:09:08 (EDT)
From: Mark
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: Real molecules
Message:
Jerry,Seymour et al,
If you like Kenyon,Robert Monroe's books and the ongoing hemispheric acoustic tape courses available from the Monroe Institute are a conjunction of science and consciousness, and a good logical followup. The non-linear followup would be another book by Kenyon called, The Hathor Material.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 12:23:23 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Jerry
Subject: I wonder...
Message:
Hi Jerry,

I wonder how many premies would be willing to submit to PET or MRI brain scans whilst meditating alongside control participants - say, volunteers not in the cult but using similar meditation techniques. (Other control subjects could be 'hypnotised' or just relaxing; others fresh out of an evangelical Christian meeting, and maybe a few using drugs etc...) How do the brain states change, and how do findings for the methods compare with one another?

Perhaps a more interesting question is would premies even be interested in the results?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 15:56:55 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: I wonder...
Message:
Perhaps a more interesting question is would premies even be interested in the results?

Hi Nige. I doubt it. Maybe mildly. Having the experience is all that's important to a premie. Or so they say. It's obvious that adopting Maharaji's philosophy and associating him with the experience is equally important.

Even if it was shown that other forms of meditation, as well as hypnosis, biofeedback, and various 'mind machines' produce the same brain states that Knowledge does, would premies submit that their experience is nothing special in comparison to what these other techniques produce, even if such techniques were self taught, or at most learned at some weekend seminar, no master required? Of course not. That would only prove that THE EXPERIENCE is more readily accessible than Maharaji claims it is, that there is no need for the long drawn out asprant program which, supposedly, prepares you properly. Such a notion would be preposterous, which of course, it is. But what premie would ever admit that?

No, a premie probably wouldn't be much interested in the results. It would only further prove how ridiculous their belief system is in what's required for their experience. The results could only foster doubt that the master (Goomba), is either deluded with self importance or is a calculating opportunist, making as much of a fortune off of people's gullibility as possible. Take your pick. He's one or the other. I'm as yet undecided. He might be both.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 10:51:17 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Seymour
Subject: Re: Real molecules
Message:
Hi Seymour. Nice post, thanks. (I'm a Vonnegut fan too.)

Amongst your biological and evolutionary reading activities, did you manage to catch Dawkin's last book 'Unweaving the Rainbow'? The whole book deals with those 'magical' sides of experience: poetry, art, and a sense of wonder at the universe etc... Challenges many of the assumptions people make about the 'dryness' of scientific atheism. It also offers some interesting evolutionary explanations for people's susceptibily to things like 'hearsay, superstition, wishful thinking' - based in part on a young child's survival need to believe without question whatever their parents tell them. It isn't one of his best (IMO) but well worth a read. (Ignore the chapter he wastes Gould-bashing!)

Cheers,
Nigel

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 17:08:26 (EDT)
From: Seymour
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: Re: Real molecules
Message:
Hi Nigel,
I have read The Selfish Gene and The Blind Watchmaker but not 'Unweaving the Rainbow'. Thanks for the recommendation I'll look out for it. I think the reason I am swaying towards the more mystical side of life is my return to SF novels by such authors as PK Dick and Kurt Vonnegut. They both had such great imaginations and they remind me of my youth when I thought anything was possible.
Dick quotes Jung in one of his books...
'Religious experience is absolute. It is indusputable. you can only say that you have never had such an experience, and your opponent will say:'Sorry, I have.'
And there your discussion will come to an end. And if such experience helps to make your life healthier, more beautiful, more complete and more satisfactory to yourself and to those you love, you may safely say:'This was the grace of God'. C.G.JUNG Psychology and Religion.

I am not so sure about the healthier part and am definite that it does not apply to being in a cult or 'knowledge' but there is something about 'whatever gets you through the night'.
I'd still rather have some Truth.
Cheers
Seymour.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 07:39:55 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk
To: Seymour
Subject: Re: Real molecules
Message:
I don't now think there is a constant reality or something of that nature. I think we create or slip into our own reality, which is often a group reality and that is just as real as anyone elses individual or group reality. There is no reality which is more real than someone elses, in my view.

I think a mistake is made when a person or group of people say that their reality is the only true one. I don't think anyone can dictate what someone elses reality should be, whether group or individual. I think all realities are real and are subjective, by nature.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 12:18:43 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: That's impossible by definition, Dave
Message:
That idea doesn't even get out of the gate without completing splattering the term reality beyond recognition. It only works if you start treating the term as 'x' and forget what it means. You know, like you can say there isn't just one 'x' .... hm, maybe you can't even say that, not if - again - you say the variable stands for one thing. You do that, you're still hooped and reality, of all things, is, by definition one alone. So you can't say that in any meaningful way, Dave. It's just poetry.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 21:14:16 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: That's impossible by definition, Dave
Message:
reality, of all things, is, by definition one alone

It depends on which bit of reality you're looking at and by what method you're using to assess it and what kind of brain and nervous system you have. Wouldn't you say that the reality of a snail is very different to that of a human? This planet has a small, minority species which is doing rather well at the moment, called Homo Sapiens. The beetles have been much more successful and for much longer.

If there were no living creatures, the passage of time would be difficult to comprehend. This galaxy spins round on its axis like powdered milk on top of a cup of stirred coffee. To us living creatures we see it all happening very slowly.

By reality I mean what we perceive to be reality. Is there a standalone reality? Well there is a physical reality but how can you say that's a reality alone? Mixed in with that and from that are billions of conscious realities. What is more real, an unconscious physical and biological existence or the conscious existences of the living beings?

If a natural progression of physical reality is the growth of conscious creatures, the totality of what is real, what reality is, has to include the awarnesses of the creatures. Otherwise, you're just looking at one aspect of reality. I don't think you can ever define reality because you can only see the bit that you've grasped or understood. And unless you are yourself, the whole universe, you cannot have more than an individual and subjective view of things.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 05:21:04 (EDT)
From: Seymour
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: That's impossible by definition, Dave
Message:
in a clearer frame of mind, I see that there's really just ONE reality
Hey Jerry,
You'll have to let us in on this one day - You could be Guru Jerry. You couldn't do a worse job than someone we know.
But seriously I agree with you - in my post to Dave. Thanks for letting me know about 'Brain States'.
Sounds like a very interesting book. I have always been fascinated by the activities of the brain - even before the acid days. Of course once becoming a premie any forays into such things were taboo. Why would anyone want to read the writings of some non-premie scientist, they were all fools when it came to the most important thing in life - which of course we were experts on, having the knowledge and all... eearghh!!
Anyway I will put the book on my reading list and can't wait to try out 'multitude of techniques for changing brain states so you can alter your mood and put yourself in a better frame of mind'
This book is not printed on hemp paper by any chance?
Cheers
Seymour.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 12:07:22 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Seymour
Subject: Re: That's impossible by definition, Dave
Message:
Why would anyone want to read the writings of some non-premie scientist, they were all fools when it came to the most important thing in life - which of course we were experts on, having the knowledge and all... eearghh!!

Exactly. The amount of knowledge at our disposal that we scoffed at because our master, who knew all, assured us that it wasn't necessary, makes me sick. Like he knows anything about anything. This might be the worst aspect of Maharaji's existence. He retards true understanding in favor of his bullshit simplistic philosophy.

Anyway I will put the book on my reading list and can't wait to try out 'multitude of techniques for changing brain states so you can alter your mood and put yourself in a better frame of mind'

This is one aspect of the book that I found mildly disturbing. Kenyon has a tendency to speak of his techniques as being universal, as if they should work for everybody. While I'm sure that he gets something out of them, I didn't always. Some I liked. Some I was unimpressed by.

This book is not printed on hemp paper by any chance?

I don't know. I haven't tried smoking it yet. Let me get back to you on that. Seriously, I hope you enjoy it if you ever get your hands on a copy. Like I said, it is a good introduction to understanding how the brain works, which I think is essential to understanding what the root cause of the mystical experience is about.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 05:14:32 (EDT)
From: Seymour
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Nothing is Real - Strawberry Fields for
Message:
Hi Dave,
I'm afraid I'm with Jim on this one. Reality is not what you make it. There is something there whether we perceive it or not. Wittgenstien sort of proved this and although I can' t understand much of it I think he was right when he said that the previous Descartes premise 'I think therefore I am' was the wrong starting point for an investigation into the truth of the human condition. What we perceive is often not real ( just look back at our time being premies ) but there is such a thing a reality which by definition is real and absolute.
When you say the reality of a snail is very different to that of a human you are talking about the perception of a snail. If he sees your foot descending from the sky he might perceive it as a great omen from the snail God but the reality is that he is about to be squished.
You say you cannot have more than an individual and subjective view of things. and to some extent you are right but that subjective view can either differ from the objective reality or perceive it correctly.
I know you are talking about consciousness rather than a physical phenomena but I still believe that there is Truth about life. You mention time - I was recently talking to a friend who is at Oxford researching this very thing as part of a PhD. Again I understood little of what he was talking about - but it seems that there have been some exciting new things discovered recently about the nature of time - not just our perception of it. There is an objective reality and we have the opportunity to discover it - not just about atoms, time, history, planets etc. but also about the human conditions and the 'right' way to live. The Truth is out there - you just have to be careful who you trust when it comes to helping you move towards it.
Cheers
Seymour
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 02:05:03 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Re: That's impossible by definition, Dave
Message:
I don't think you can ever define reality because you can only see the bit that you've grasped or understood.

Hmm. Would you say that this statement is THE reality on how it is or just YOUR reality?

Reality is just stating how it is, being aware of what's actually transpiring and why. Somebody close to me is schizophrenic. She hears voices. That's reality. But the voices aren't really there. It's just because of an imbalance in her brain that she hears them. That's reality. When she takes her medication, she no longer hears voices. That's reality. People who drink should not drive. There's a better chance they might get into an accident. That's reality. This is how I've come to regard 'reality', as understanding what is.

Up until recently I was thinking that there are loads of realities, as many realities as there are people, in fact. But in a clearer frame of mind, I see that there's really just ONE reality, and that's the one that most aptly explains what's happening. If not, what else could it be?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 06:54:38 (EDT)
From: The snail god
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: That's impossible by definition, Dave
Message:
If I park on a double yellow line in London during the day, I'll get a parking ticket, guaranteed. That's reality and it is one which humans have created. It's not a law of nature.

Outside my house at night there is often an army of snails on the march. But the all compassionate snail god from the sky, carries a little torch to pick his way round the snails and thus prevent me treading horrible slimy stuff into the house. The snails see a bright light and don't ever realise how lucky they are. But my neighbours might suspect I've finally flipped as I gingerly pick my way round an unseen minefield every night.

The three different perceptions of reality; mine, the snails and my neighbours, are all different. Each one is totally real to the perceiver. Likewise, our perception of the universe, great as it may be, is limited by our understanding and our instruments of perception.

In a thousand years time they'll laugh at our limited view of things. Just as we might scoff at the beliefs and concepts of Bronze Age men, today.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 11:27:29 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: The snail god
Subject: Re: That's impossible by definition, Dave
Message:
The three different perceptions of reality; mine, the snails and my neighbours, are all different. Each one is totally real to the perceiver.

Nope. Reality is that you only know what your perception is. You don't know if that's the same or different from your neighbor's. You're probably right that it's different from the snails.

Likewise, our perception of the universe, great as it may be, is limited by our understanding and our instruments of perception.

Well, then that's the reality of the situation. There is no absolute understanding of the universe, though there might be an absolute truth about it which we've yet to perceive, which we may never perceive, in fact.

In a thousand years time they'll laugh at our limited view of things. Just as we might scoff at the beliefs and concepts of Bronze Age men, today.

Yes, the REALITY is that one generation builds upon the understanding of the next. I don't laugh at the Bronze Age, myself. They did after all, invent the wheel (didn't they?), and where would we be without that?

Are we working our way toward an absolute reality where, one day, everything will be known, where there will be nothing left to learn? I don't know, but I doubt it.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 19:01:51 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Premie poetry literature class
Message:
Here's some more 'poetry' from ELK:

M. Scott Jones
Portland, USA

The rowing I must do

If I am going to make it across this ocean
I'm going to have to pay more attention.

[Can anyone tell me what the writer means by this? What does he have to 'pay more attention' to?]

I'm going to have to start rowing more.

[And what does he mean by this? 'Rowing more'? What's that all about?]

The tide has long before swept me adrift,
and the currents keep flowing against me.
I'm going to have to start rowing stronger
and with more determination.

[What currents? How are they flowing aginst him? And, again, what's with this 'rowing' metaphor?]

Every day, the multiplicity lures me.
the dazzle of the sun on the water's surface
blinds me to the horizon
where waits the shore I've been trying to reach.

[What's with this 'multiplicity'? How is it 'luring' the writer? And away from what? How is it 'blinding' him? And what is this 'horizon where waits the shore' he's been trying to reach?]

Every day I have the choice
of rowing stronger and true
or getting mesmerised by that sun's fake dazzle
and casting more adrift.

[The writer sounds as if he's besot by enemy forces, apparently supernatural at that. Does any of this allude to any spiritual or religious beliefs? Which ones? How does the writer's mental health sound? What does he mean by saying that he's being 'mesmerized by the sun's fake dazzle and casting more adrift? How many suicides have there been amongst premies over the last 25 years?]

I don't have that much time.
if I keep drifting, one day I'll perish
and I won't have reached my goal,
for in this ocean are numerous dangers:
briny water, lack of food, sharks and storms
and false harbors ringed with sirens
calling from rocky shoals.

[What is the writer's attitude towards women? Is it healthy? Is the writer on a 'path of peace'? How would you like to receive a letter like this from your children at college? Your brother in Pennsylvania? Your mother in Nova Scotia? How many attempted suicides have there been amongst premies during the last 25 years?]

If I want to reach that shore
then I will have to turn my bark within
for that shore I want to reach is there in me,
and I can reach it now by rowing.

[What is the writer's attitude to the world around him? Is THAT healthy? How far does he have to row? Where's he going anyway?]

The rowing that I must do
is the rowing of this breath.
the more that I row, the sooner I reach it,
the sooner I reach
that shore I know which waits within me.

[How does the writer know about the 'shore' he's never been to before? Has someone been filling his head with shit? How many premies have contemplated suicide over the last 25 years?]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 08:43:27 (EDT)
From: People's Poet
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Row row row your boat
Message:
Two ditties for M Scott Jones.

Row row row your boat,
gently down the drain,
blissfully, blissfully blissfully
being a premie's just a pain.

Maharji's boat is going nowhere,
climbing aboard does no good,
it's leaky, broken, unseaworthy,
and will remain stuck in the mud.

There ain't no sharks and there aint no ocean,
it never gets out of the dock,
the pilot's drunk, the charts are missing,
and the captain does give a fock.

Peoples Poet

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 19:16:33 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Translation
Message:
The psychology behind premies is no different than fundamentalist christians in the sense that they believe the world, and their own minds, brains, intellect, as well as everything that is fun, desirable or pleasurable, is out to get them and drive them into eternal damnation.

Mr. Jones has just expressed a really bad poem that expresses that. It's just a new form of ARTI, remember?

In the river of bondage to maya
All are swept out to sea
All are sinking in the depths of the sea
Gurus boat is the holy name
Gurus ship is the holy word
In seconds he has set us free
Jai Dev Jai Satgurudev

It's just the same as Pauline Premie would say:
Without that love, that peace that truth and that experience, which is that gift of this life and that knowledge which is due to that grace which is Maharaji's gift to those in this world with a guiless heart, but we always forget and are distracted from and hence need him always to save us, we are nothing more than coagulated dog vomit being flushed down the toilet.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 18:40:30 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: No, Maharaji's not a cult leader
Message:
M. Scott Jones
Portland, USA

A strong master

If you're going to be a strong student, he says,
you'll need a master who is strong,
who can row you in that boat
across to the other shore.

You'll need a master whose love is unconditional,
whose understanding is powerful and without obstruction.
whose focus is dead-on.

A master whose words
are carried on the purest breath.
words not carved out of preconceptions
nor spoken from his head, but out of pure compassion
for the human condition.

If you're going to make across this wide ocean
you'll need to sit in your boat with that master
and listen to what he has to say,
take up those oars and row as he has shown you.

You'll need to exercise those muscles of appreciation
and keep rowing.
you'll need to exercise those muscles of determination
and stay alert.
you'll need to hone your attention
to his navigational cues.
you'll need to hone your attention
to that guiding star within.

You'll need to hone your discrimination
and keep rowing for all you've got.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 08:14:55 (EDT)
From: People's Poet
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: That sinking feeling.
Message:
Dedicated to M Scott, premie poet.

'Time to start thinking,
the cult is stinking,
and your master's boat
has started sinking'.

People's Poet (doncha knowit).

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 00:24:01 (EDT)
From: beeb
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Nil, take a look at that.
Message:
You have to hand it to the rower, he has been
paying attention.
Premies think there is a lord but prem rawat does not!
Url,
what do you think about the fellows writing?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 16:49:50 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Fact: Shp is a liar!
Message:
Back in those heady days when I WAS SOMEBODY as webmaster of Forum III and when a 20 mg. tablet of Valium did me little good, I remember Shp. Oh, yes, I remember Shp.

It was before I blocked him. He was supposedly on one of his self-imposed exiles after getting trounced in the Shp Forum War II. Robyn had posted a birthday greeting to someone who's name will go unmentioned because I have forgotten. And sweet and considerate Shp came out of his exile to say Happy Birthday. Robyn responded kindly back to Shp and Shp back to Robyn saying that he was no longer posting, but just on Birthday Greeting detail.

Yeah, right, my lying fiend. No, Shp was very busy obnoxiously posting as Government Inspector or G.I. in a fierce battle with Jim on the right livelihood of being a defense lawyer.

Shp will say that he's away in the bleachers and not posting, but I don't believe him. Shp is a liar with Christ-like delusions. He's the kind of guy that you love to hate. The kind of guy who just doesn't know how to be with people without sliding in some spiritual elitism and superiority.

Shp, I'm just trying to cut you down from that out of that rope you're playing with before you hang yourself, bud.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 06:06:19 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: That's it! Enuff! Close down the Forum - Shp takes all!
Message:
Shp,

I really feel sorry for you. You need to stop and go somewhere else. It's just pathetic to see you go on and on with your blather and get beat up all the time.

What is the point? Why, why, why are you doing this to yourself? You know what the Forum is about and you will never change it.

Just go away! God almighty, please help Shp. Make him understand!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 17:58:06 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: Re: Fact: Shp is a swell guy!
Message:
You are a silly goose.
I posed as all those names in response to your games with the other site, just to show you that any idiot could do it. Some here were acting like hot shit because they fooled some folks over there. And most of you had no clue I was all those many different (and exciting - viva Rico Suave!) personas. And I outted myself, to illustrate the point. So lying was not my thing, but showing you how silly it all is doing that looks from both sides.

As GI, I busted on Jim for attacking Maharaji with such wild abandon and then going to work the next day in his suit and tie and quite likely defending someone who he has every good reason to believe could be guilty, and his goosebumps could even be telling him so. I just found that whole dichotomy interesting, I did not want to dissect the entire justice system, as others wanted to do, thus creating a red herring issue to distract from the very personal questions I was asking. If you recall, I was getting it in the chops myself. So welcome to the world of two-way communication!

You want a double standard - different rules for how exers and premies can be. Surprise! All premies
are not robots, and all exers are not potty mouths. Viva la difference!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 18:44:57 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Evasive, pathetic, typical
Message:
After all your smoke, Shp, the point remains standing clear as day: you're a liar. Not to mention that you only made a fool of yourself as GI. Showed your basic ignorance of the legal system, if I recall. Remember?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 19:06:49 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Note to Self
Message:
Note to self: Remember to lock keyguard double when Jim posts to or about you.
He is a skilled hacker and button pusher, although he has no class about it.
He thinks your 'liar' button is hot, but you know who you are....
and you look mahvelous.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 19:09:32 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Shp really does it ... he crosses over into toonland
Message:
Shp,

You are now the perfect embodiment of Jack Handy. Staring into the mirror like a little new age ninne, trying to convince yourself that you're 'OKAAAY'.

Think about it.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 19:24:09 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Everybody loves those 'toons!
Message:
'.....and we have broken free of the personality cult surrounding him.'
-from the Forum Intro Page

Guess what? So have I and alot of other premies. Can't stand cults myself. Never could. I could deal with a teacher of Knowledge, though. The only real difference between me and you is that I still entertain the notion that, for all of the alleged indescretions and outright mistakes made by Maharaji and/or his assistants and all the things that need to be fixed in his organization, he is still quite possibly be one of the greatest forces for good on the planet by virtue of his spreading Knowledge. Something inside me still sees this as a very realistic vision of reality, not fear of renouncing the Lord or anything like that. How gmom's case unfolds will reveal alot, and I look forward to witnessing the outcome. I pray that he will show his love and concern for her and whoever else was hurt by Jagdeo, that it is recognized for what it is and that it is sincere and from the heart. I can dream, can't I?
Hey, you never know...

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 19:30:41 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: So how does this work exactly?
Message:
Something inside me still sees this as a very realistic vision of reality, not fear of renouncing the Lord or anything like that. How gmom's case unfolds will reveal alot, and I look forward to witnessing the outcome.

So what's the process? Do 'you' get together with 'something inside of you' and go over the latest facts and opinions? Do 'you' and 'something inside of you' pass memos back and forth? Are you stupid?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 20:21:47 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Moving Energy 101
Message:
No, as a matter of fact I have alot of intelligence at my disposal, including yours.

Do you know how freon works when you grab the ice to refresh your scotch? Or do your just enjoy it and not worry about how it all works?

I don't know what all is going on behind the scenes with you guys and EV and all the butt sniffing going on. I just move the energy in the direction of where I want it to go and stuff happens. Sometimes I get involved in the (pardon the expression) gross material plane on deeper levels and sometimes I hang back. Didn't you ever sit in on a case where you weren't the front man? But you were at the table?

In this case, I involved myself here by name, openly and publicly supported a postion held by all the ex-premies yet remained a premie myself, and e-mailed Maharaji about it. Plus other activities that are for now none of your business. That has been my personal involvement. Others have done other things and all together, I understand a long overdue repsonse has been received from EV. I am sure there is more to go, but there has been a beginning. We all did our part. Everyone is not in the infantry, or the paratroopers, or the tank corps, etc.

Tell me, do the molecules in your brain get pissed off at the molecules in your ass for just sitting around all the time? That was funny....

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 21:19:23 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Interesting for sure ... now will you please answer my question
Message:
Now you answered the last question. You say you're not stupid and I thank you very much for that answer. It really helps because I was starting to think, pretty strongly, in fact, that you were dumb as a donut. But I guess I was wrong. Good.

But what about my first question? How do You share your mouth and brain with Something-Inside-You? Which one decides if it's going to be pizza tonight or the Colonel?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 21:43:29 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Answers r us
Message:
It's a combination of all my life experience, and it is as natural as walking.
Do you need a printout of how your brain pulls off walking?
Quite alot of steps (no pun intended) involved, looks easy and most people take it for granted.
And I am not into pizza or the Colonel.
I'm getting a little lactose intolerant in my old age, and the fried stuff, oy.

Why do I get the feeling that you are still baiting me and not just asking some harmless questions?
Why do I get the feeling that you are always trying to build a case and not just conversing?
Gee, I must be paranoid....

You smell a rose, it's sweet
But you stick your finger on a thorn
And a bee flies out of the blossom and
stings you on the nose.
And the rosebushes have shitty smelling fertilizer all around them.
And you stepped in it.
And they make some folks sneeze.
So roses suck, right?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 21:54:13 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: If you think that's an answer, you're dumber than I thought
Message:
I'll make this as simple as possible:

What's the difference between Something Inside of You and plain, old You?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 22:01:27 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: One smart boy felt smart (say 3x fast)
Message:
OK, I think I've got it.
Something inside me (my human body) is me (my being, my essence)
Yes, it's me! And it's you too, that something inside of you that nags at you to find out the truth regardless of what anything looks like or seems like or whatever....
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 22:50:43 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Tell me something honestly
Message:
Shp,

Are you ever embarrassed by your new age nonsense? You know, you come across to many of us here, rightly or wrongly, as a complete cotton-head. Does it ever occur to you that you could do better than that? That maybe, just maybe, you could use your mind better? Be more accurate, clearer, not so new age all the time?

I remember when I used to frequent places like the Whole Life Expo. I went a few times because I had a friend who used to dig that scene. Approached it slightly tongue-in-cheek but, hell, it was a lark to see what kind of wierd things people actually believe. Amazing!

You've got your Plaedians and your Crytal Skull people, your various cults, tons of astrologers, lots of new age 'tantric' or taoist sex people ready to show you how to route your energy. All sorts of shit.

And the thing that got me was how the one no-no was the word 'no' itself. Like there was no discrimination. Anyone came up with enough money to rent a table and hawk their wares, they were in. They had their 'information' to 'share' and who, tell me, who could say otherwise?

Shp, that's about the stupidest mind set anyone could ever succumb to. Of course no one could really live that way. They'd be giving their Visa number to everyone and losing all their money in a weekend. So people devise these ingenious ways to discriminate secretly. Like finding some way to explain that some 'teaching' wasn't for them -- NOT because it wasn't true (God forbid!) but because 'some part of them' didn't feel it was the right 'information' for them to 'access' right now, or 'at this time in their journey'. Sound familiar, Shp?

This is, Shp, a most unnatural and self-deceptive way to live. And you, fella, smell like you've been rolling in those fields forever.

Do you ever wonder about that? Ever wonder about what made Shp Shp? Or are you too new age to do even that?

Come on, Mr. 'Answers R Us', talk to me.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 23:25:58 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Honesty is the best policy
Message:
Are you ever embarrassed by your new age nonsense?

Shp sez: If you can be specific, I can answer better. But for now, the answer is no. Some of what you call 'new age' is ancient information being remembered, rediscovered and brought back to consciousness.

You know, you come across to many of us here, rightly or wrongly, as a complete cotton-head. Does it ever occur to you that you could do better than that? That maybe, just maybe, you could use your mind better? Be more accurate, clearer, not so new age all the time?

Shp sez: The road of evolution is always under construction. But all good roads have solid foundations and adhere to certain engineering standards. This 'new age' tag is bullshit.

I remember when I used to frequent places like the Whole Life Expo. I went a few times because I had a friend who used to dig that scene.

Shp sez: Was it a female woman of the opposite sex? Why did you really go? Some tantric action?

Approached it slightly tongue-in-cheek but, hell, it was a lark to see what kind of wierd things people actually believe. Amazing!

Shp sez: Whose tongue was in whose cheek, that's what I want to know! Yeah, I know how you feel. I got that same weird feeling the few times I have had to go to court for something. The shit they feed each other and nobody says a word. And they call it justice.

You've got your Plaedians and your Crytal Skull people, your various cults, tons of astrologers, lots of new age 'tantric' or taoist sex people ready to show you how to route your energy. All sorts of shit.

Shp sez: Many people have fought and bled and died so people could be free to do all this shit.
It's called freedom of expression, freedom of religion, freedom of speech. And just like anywhere else, you've got your bullshit artists and your genuine articles. I am not here to judge which is which right now, just affirming their right to existence, even if they bother you.

And the thing that got me was how the one no-no was the word 'no' itself. Like there was no discrimination. Anyone came up with enough money to rent a table and hawk their wares, they were in. They had their 'information' to 'share' and who, tell me, who could say otherwise?

Shp sez: You went there of your own free will. What is your problem? Were you locked in? Did somebody force you to have tantric sex with a 100 yr. old yogini? Ya know, Jim, at the very same time you were there getting all persnickity about 'new age' stuff, babies were being born, people were dying, somebody was getting it in the ass, lovers were vowing eteranl love to each other over wine and cheese at a country club, rain was leaking into a hut on an island with a family of ten in there, the earth was rotating on its axis, etc etc. There is a difference between a critical mind and a judgemental mind. Check it out.

Shp, that's about the stupidest mind set anyone could ever succumb to. Of course no one cluld really live that way. They'd be giving their Visa number to everyone and lose it all in a weekend. So people devise these ingenious ways to discriminate secretly. Like finding some way to explain that some 'teaching' wasn't for them -- NOT becuase it wasn't true (God forbid!) but because 'some part of them' didn't feel it was the right 'information' for them to 'access' right now, or 'at this time in their journey'. Sound familiar, Shp?

Shp sez: Sounds like a certain amount of human nature hangs like toilet paper on your shoe as evolution rolls through time. There is always some residue, but evolution still goes on.

This is, Shp, a most unnatural and self-deceptive way to live. And you, fella, smell like you've been rolling in those fields forever.

Shp sez: What? 'New age' fields? Give me a break! Maybe that's why we haven't been able to dialog very well. I seem like a 'new age' freak and you seem like a lawyer working here overtime.
Not a good mix of smells - patchouli and sandalwood vs yellow legal pads and brougham wingtips.

Do you ever wonder about that? Ever wonder about what made Shp Shp? Or are you too new age to do even that?

And your Dawkins would swipe his credit card thorugh there and have a table too, if not at the whole life expo then at some other venue where folks are spouting their views, intellectually sparring and selling books. Different cosutmes, different food, different terms, same trips. What's the difference between it happening at a Borders or a Barnes & Noble or a college campus and a whole life expo?
It's called free enterprise and the open sharing of ideas, kind of like what a Forum is supposed to be.... The world according to Jim or Shp alone would be pretty boring now wouldn't it?
Why can't you live and let live?

As for what makes Shp Shp, I see myself as I am and have made many connections between the present product and past experiences, both 'good' and 'bad' that have summed me up to now.
Yet there is this one part of myself that is totally untouched and unaffected by all of it, calm and cool
whenever I pay attention to it. Strength is there, and peace and comfort and the tremendous sense that I am not alone. I believe it is real. And if it's a fig-newton of my imagikinashun, fine too.
Know why? Because it works for me!
Yeah, we can talk. Can you stay on your side of the conversation and deal from there?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 23:33:20 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Re: Honesty is the best policy
Message:
Yeah, we can talk. Can you stay on your side of the conversation and deal from there?

No, I'm not interested. I think I'm really going to make a concerted effort to not read your posts anymore no matter what. You really are a major waste of time.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 23:37:35 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Honesty is the best policy
Message:
Hey man, don't hurt your back condescending to me.
Later.
Shp
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 17:20:14 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: Show mercy Barney
Message:
Hi Barney,

Show mercy.

Shp's been in a cult for a long time. This does wierd things to your understanding of life. If you believe in'God Almighty', and through a tradition involving mythological characters like Buddha and Jesus, this 'God Almighty', infinite, timeless and bigger than the universe as it may be, has, for some cosmic purpose that we don't understand, squashed itself into this short, chubby Indian bloke. And whatever this Indian bloke says, it's the creator of the universe speaking. Oh yeah, and 'Almighty God' is also snot, patterns, buzzing and breathing, therefore you'd better cough up some dosh, then no wonder people end up doing daft things and a bit confused.

Anth the Defence Attorney.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 17:26:55 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: You want mercy? I'll give you some real mercy!
Message:
Return to Index -:- Top of Index