Forum IV: The Ex-Premie Forum
Archive: 4
From: Mon, Sep 13, 1999 To: Fri, Sep 24, 1999 Page: 1 Of: 5


Roger $$$ Drek -:- New on Drek - Corporate Shenanigans -:- Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 06:21:44 (EDT)

Z -:- What some of you were looking for -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 23:18:00 (EDT)

Ben Lurking -:- Why are yo the defender of the fait -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 20:46:20 (EDT)
__ Know It All -:- Guess URL's true identity! -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 21:01:32 (EDT)
__ __ Ben Lurking -:- Re: Guess URL's true identity! -:- Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 05:22:02 (EDT)
__ __ gerry -:- I'll bite...cainer...NT -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 21:03:42 (EDT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Not Mr Glen -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 22:01:33 (EDT)

Sir David -:- Greatest of these is charity -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 20:28:24 (EDT)
__ King David -:- Elan Vital dumps Shri Hans -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 20:53:09 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- I should have read the fine print -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 23:48:41 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- That's hilarious -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 20:44:57 (EDT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- No, DLM was another guru -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 22:45:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- Cracks me up -:- Wed, Sep 22, 1999 at 09:33:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ Know It All -:- JEAN-MICHEL! DREK!! -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 22:53:03 (EDT)

Marianne -:- Calling All Brits! (OT) -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 14:18:54 (EDT)
__ AJW -:- Shopping and fucking(OT) -:- Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 16:32:51 (EDT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Re: Calling All Brits! (OT) -:- Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 07:46:18 (EDT)
__ __ Robyn -:- Re: Calling All Brits! (OT) -:- Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 19:58:16 (EDT)
__ Nigel -:- It's all music and footy up this end of the M1... -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 19:22:55 (EDT)
__ __ Robyn -:- Re: It's all music and footy up this end of the M1... -:- Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 20:01:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- Re: It's all music and footy up this end of the M1... -:- Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 22:36:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Re: It's all music and footy up this end of the M1... -:- Wed, Sep 22, 1999 at 12:39:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Ok, but get rid of that damn nose clip..! :-) (nt) -:- Wed, Sep 22, 1999 at 14:04:14 (EDT)

Nigel -:- Let's rephrase the question, URL... -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 09:04:12 (EDT)
__ Liz -:- Leave your cheat & deceit... -:- Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 01:18:41 (EDT)
__ __ gmom -:- yep.. -:- Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 11:21:27 (EDT)
__ URL -:- Re: Let's rephrase the question, URL... -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 15:22:59 (EDT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Assertion is not explanation. -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 19:39:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ URL -:- Re: Assertion is not explanation. -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 20:31:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Super Bowl Sunday -:- Wed, Sep 22, 1999 at 10:26:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ URL -:- NO MAS! -:- Wed, Sep 22, 1999 at 16:24:48 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Adios! -:- Thurs, Sep 23, 1999 at 09:07:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ An occassional Observer -:- MAS -:- Wed, Sep 22, 1999 at 23:33:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ The High Tribunal -:- Re: NO MAS! -:- Wed, Sep 22, 1999 at 16:47:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- So Daddy, are you saying that if M died tomorrow... -:- Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 05:40:15 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- A quick resume of the discussion so far... -:- Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 09:27:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Liz -:- Re: A quick resume of the discussion so far... -:- Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 22:02:34 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Re: A quick resume of the discussion so far... -:- Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 15:06:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- In the downpour of the soothing, ordinary rain... -:- Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 20:17:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- A sales plan that (almost) works -:- Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 21:22:07 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- He abandoned his best asset -:- Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 21:44:15 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Re: He abandoned his best asset -:- Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 22:02:15 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- 'It's past our bedtime!' - (yet again!) -:- Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 22:16:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ URL -:- That explains it! -:- Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 20:41:51 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- That explains diddly! -:- Wed, Sep 22, 1999 at 00:21:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Fuck you, you coward! -:- Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 21:39:14 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ URL -:- Once more with feeling! -:- Thurs, Sep 23, 1999 at 16:26:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Re: Once more with feeling! -:- Thurs, Sep 23, 1999 at 20:23:31 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ URL -:- Re: Once more with feeling! -:- Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 11:59:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- There's speculation and there's speculation... -:- Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 03:53:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ URL -:- Re: There's speculation and there's speculation... -:- Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 11:53:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Do you really want to know? -:- Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 21:03:20 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- Haven't you got it yet Jim? -:- Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 22:56:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- I wasn't talking to you. (nt) -:- Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 21:28:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Sir David -:- Re: Assertion is not explanation. -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 21:52:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ nigel -:- Just a coincidence, Sir Dave -:- Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 05:45:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ CdM -:- Re: Cringing Parent -:- Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 06:04:16 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Re: Cringing Parent -:- Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 09:24:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ URL -:- Re: Cringing Parent -:- Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 19:31:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Are you able? -:- Wed, Sep 22, 1999 at 00:35:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- naah, forget it... -:- Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 21:22:21 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- And how's that, Url? -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 19:01:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ URL -:- Re: And how's that, Url? -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 19:36:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Hey, not so fast!! -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 20:32:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ URL -:- Re: Hey, not so fast!! -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 21:19:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Do I detect a witty-bitty weasle word? -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 21:53:56 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ URL -:- Re: Do I detect a witty-bitty weasle word? -:- Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 15:55:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Okay, here's how this works -:- Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 21:07:53 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- Grossly negligent parenting -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 10:34:08 (EDT)
__ __ gregg -:- Re: dirty pictures -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 12:06:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ gmom -:- It happened to me... -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 12:46:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Start a thread when you make your name change -:- Re: It happened to me..nt -:- Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 08:11:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Grace -:- Re: It happened to me... -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 13:14:16 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Re: It happened to me... -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 13:54:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ kmdarling -:- I knew Gmom -:- Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 14:35:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Gmom -:- Re: I knew Gmom -:- Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 15:06:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ kmdarling -:- Re: I knew Gmom -:- Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 17:11:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry, dearest -:- All while wearing a red nightie -:- Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 19:32:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Welcome Gmom --- Susan! -:- Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 15:22:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ kmdarling -:- Re: It happened to me... -:- Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 14:21:39 (EDT)

barney -:- Blasts from the Deja News past -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 04:06:15 (EDT)
__ bb -:- Re: Blasts from the Deja News past -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 18:31:26 (EDT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Re: Blasts from the Deja News past -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 08:41:47 (EDT)
__ __ bb -:- Re: Blasts from the Deja News past -:- Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 22:10:51 (EDT)

Fly -:- Get your walletts out -:- Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 17:29:45 (EDT)
__ Know It All -:- Re: Get your wallets out -:- Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 18:02:17 (EDT)
__ __ Liz -:- Family Business -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 16:11:59 (EDT)
__ __ __ Grace -:- Re: Family Business -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 21:42:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Liz -:- Singing mistress -:- Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 00:53:17 (EDT)
__ __ Fly -:- Re: Get your wallets out -:- Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 18:29:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ Liz -:- U.S. Charity Commission -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 16:19:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Fly -:- Re: U.S. Charity Commission -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 23:29:16 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Re: U.S. Charity Commission -:- Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 18:07:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Liz -:- Re: U.S. Charity Commission -:- Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 00:56:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Fred -:- Re: U.S. Charity Commission -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 16:52:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Fly -:- Re: U.S. Charity Commission -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 23:33:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ Know It All -:- Snoop dogs -:- Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 19:27:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Fly -:- Re: Snoop dogs -:- Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 22:39:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Know It All -:- Request for returns -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 00:55:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Fly -:- Re: Request for returns -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 23:36:42 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Re: Get your wallets out -:- Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 19:24:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Fly -:- Re: Get your wallets out -:- Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 20:24:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Liz -:- O what a tangled web... -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 16:15:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Fly -:- Re: O what a tangled web... -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 23:38:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Fly -:- Sidebar to JW -:- Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 23:14:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Re: Sidebar to JW -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 13:08:31 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Fly -:- Re: Sidebar to JW -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 23:45:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ A Premie Jr. -:- You just don't get it, do you? -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 04:24:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Fly -:- Re: You just don't get it, do you? -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 23:57:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ kmdarling -:- Neat Villa, Inc. -:- Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 14:09:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Fly -:- Re: Neat Villa, Inc. -:- Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 20:02:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Fly -:- Re: Neat Villa, Inc. -:- Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 20:05:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Fly -:- Re: Neat Villa, Inc. -:- Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 20:07:35 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger Slow 'n Lazy Drek -:- Neat Villa, Inc. can be best, but... -:- Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 14:32:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ kmdarling -:- Re: Neat Villa, Inc. can be best, but... -:- Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 14:51:33 (EDT)


Date: Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 06:21:44 (EDT)
From: Roger $$$ Drek
Email: None
To: All
Subject: New on Drek - Corporate Shenanigans
Message:
There's more to come. It's a rough cut and a little boring, but it tells some of the story of the money behind THE Man.

Maharaji's Corporate Shenanigans at Roger's House of Maharaji Drek

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Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 23:18:00 (EDT)
From: Z
Email: None
To: All
Subject: What some of you were looking for
Message:
is now available.

It's on the ANYTHING GOES forum

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Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 20:46:20 (EDT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: Why are yo the defender of the fait
Message:
URL
I am curious, do you come over here to exdom and defend M for service or just on your own. I don't think you are going to change any minds around here and I wonder why you come around. Do you work?
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Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 21:01:32 (EDT)
From: Know It All
Email: None
To: Ben Lurking
Subject: Guess URL's true identity!
Message:
As a follow up to Ben Lurking's post, here is a new game. Guess the true identity of URL. Catweasel has promised to tell us when someone has unmasked him! And if you believe that, I have a cult to sell you....

My guess: URL is Glen Whittaker.

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Date: Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 05:22:02 (EDT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Know It All
Subject: Re: Guess URL's true identity!
Message:
1) He uses NT
2) He doesn't have a major ISP customized browser
3) I would have to see somone using NT from the USA to know if his [en] is north american english or european english. His language seems anerican to me
4) He dissappears around programs
5) Cmon URL I don't want to play anympre please tell us!
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Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 21:03:42 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Know It All
Subject: I'll bite...cainer...NT
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 22:01:33 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Not Mr Glen
Message:
I don't think it's Mr Glen. URL loses his rag in a big way sometimes and Glen, while being a real heavy cat at times, is more controlled and icily calculating in his outbursts. That's how I remember him.

I don't know enough of any other premies who might post here to hazard a guess.

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Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 20:28:24 (EDT)
From: Sir David
Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk
To: All
Subject: Greatest of these is charity
Message:

What charitable works are Elan Vital doing these days? Along with those worthy people shaking their tins outside supermarkets for Guide-dogs For the Blind, Cancer Research and the British Heart Foundation, how do Elan Vital rate amongst these worthy causes?

Have a look at Elan Vital's record in the UK Charity Commission and then decide for yourself.

Would you be happy if some rock stars held a benefit rock concert in aid of earthquake victims and after the concert, they decided it was better to give the money to Elan Vital rather than the earthquake charities, because the money would be put to better use by Elan Vital?

Would you feel happy with that? Would you gladly give your excess small change to such a worthy cause as Elan Vital because you sincerely care about helping humanity? Do you see the suffering in the world and feel a warm glow because you know there is an all round charity, namely Elan Vital, which is going to help all these people who are suffering?

I'm sorry, because I am being presumptous. Perhaps you are suffering. Perhaps you need help yourself and amongst the trials and tribulations that life hands out and the endless forest of difficulties and hardships which beset you, there is a beacon of hope for you in the charity called Elan Vital.

Perhaps you feel a little less insecure, knowing that such a warm-hearted group of people such as Elan Vital, will help you in your hour of need and no matter how difficult things get, you will always have that reassuring shoulder of Elan Vital charity to cry on.

It's good to know that the money you give to such a worthy cause as Elan Vital will go to help somebody who may be worse off than yourself or somebody who is in dire need. And if that person is you and if your need is great, how wonderful to know that help is always at hand.

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Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 20:53:09 (EDT)
From: King David
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Elan Vital dumps Shri Hans
Message:
Notice the wording of the objects for each incarnation:

Elan Vital:

Objects TO ADVANCE THE EDUCATION IN THE UNDERSTANDING AND REALISATION OF HUMAN POTENTIAL THROUGH SELF-KNOWLEDGE BASED UPON THE TEACHINGS OF PREM PAL SINGH RAWAT K/A MAHARAJI.

Divine Light Mission:

TO ADVANCE RELIGION IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE PRINCIPLES OF SRI HANS JI GURU MAHARAJA AND SRI SANTA JI GURU MAHARAH BY PROMOTING THE KNOWLEDGE THAT GOD IS THE SUPREME CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE: THE REALISATION OF GOD WITHOUT NOMINATIONAL BIAS; THE RELIEF OF PREVENTION OF SUFFERING BOTH MENTAL AND PHYSICAL OCCASIONED BY POVERTY, ILL HEALTH AND THE ABUSE OF DRUGS.

PS I swear it says ''Shri Santa'' in the original...

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Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 23:48:41 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: King David
Subject: I should have read the fine print
Message:
THE RELIEF OF PREVENTION OF SUFFERING BOTH MENTAL AND PHYSICAL OCCASIONED BY POVERTY, ILL HEALTH AND THE ABUSE OF DRUGS.

And all along I thought we were trying to prevent suffering.

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Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 20:44:57 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: That's hilarious
Message:
I'm sorry, because I am being presumptous. Perhaps you are suffering. Perhaps you need help yourself and amongst the trials and tribulations that life hands out and the endless forest of difficulties and hardships which beset you, there is a beacon of hope for you in the charity called Elan Vital.

Perhaps you feel a little less insecure, knowing that such a warm-hearted group of people such as Elan Vital, will help you in your hour of need and no matter how difficult things get, you will always have that reassuring shoulder of Elan Vital charity to cry on.

Good one, David.

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Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 22:45:37 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: No, DLM was another guru
Message:
It's past my bedtime but the old DLM officially ended in 1995 and that was a different guru, not Maharaji who isn't a guru but an educational teacher.

See the Divine Light Mission Charity Commission record and you can clearly see that it was Santa Claus or some guru Maharah who we were devoted to.

Mind you, Santa's father was Shri Hans so perhaps it was another brother who we followed. Not much chance of definitely connecting the old DLM record with the Elan Vital one. They both have a Brighton phone number though and Shri Hans was Prem Pal Singh Rawat's Father.

All this information has been gleaned from The Charity Commission in England & Wales You are welcome to contact them to tell them what you think about the charitable status of Elan Vital.

(PS King David is someone else)

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Date: Wed, Sep 22, 1999 at 09:33:33 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Cracks me up
Message:
David,

This is funny. First, the charity details make this blunder in the object of the 'charity':

TO ADVANCE RELIGION IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE
PRINCIPLES OF SRI HANS JI GURU MAHARAJA AND SRI
SANTA JI GURU MAHARAH

Then they list the removal date and reason for removal as this:

Register Removal Date
13/11/1995
Removal Reason
CEASED TO EXIST

Get it? They removed the charity because 'Santa' no longer exists. Cracked me up.

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Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 22:53:03 (EDT)
From: Know It All
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: JEAN-MICHEL! DREK!!
Message:
These documents belong on both of your sites!
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Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 14:18:54 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Calling All Brits! (OT)
Message:
Ok, all you nasty Brits! In today's San Francisco Chronicle, one of the most esteemed newspapers in the known universe, there's a review of a play to open here that is fresh off the London stage. It is entitled: Shopping & Fucking. Seeing as I will be visiting London in the not too distant future, I want you to tell me if the description of life in your city and country is accurate (so I can either speed up or delay my arrival -- any maybe leave my spouse back in Ireland). The review of the play says:

Shopping and Fucking portrays a world where life is conducted as a series of wary consumer transactions. The five characters in the play negotiate for raw sex, drugs, power, microwaved meals, even possession of each others' memories and fantasies.

The descriptions of life in the Queen's England go downhill from there, but I think you catch the drift. Now tell me, is it true?

Fondly, Your Yankee Friend, Marianne

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Date: Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 16:32:51 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Shopping and fucking(OT)
Message:
Hi Marianne,

As usual, our right wing press are portraying the comfy life of the middle class bourgeousie.

For the dispossed, life is much tougher.

Why only the other day, I said to the waiter, 'This olive oil may be extra virgin, but ..'

Anyway, things aren't as cushy as the writer makes out.

Anth the Ricola Socialist.

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Date: Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 07:46:18 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: Calling All Brits! (OT)
Message:
Yep, my wife goes shopping and I'm fucked. But this is called rip-off Britain by the Europeans. In Britain you have to pay through the nose for everything and nothing is cheap. All our prices are about double what yours are in the USA. Food, housing, cars, sex...
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Date: Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 19:58:16 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Re: Calling All Brits! (OT)
Message:
Dear Dave,
You had me laughing out loud! :) 'Your wife goes shopping and your fucked.' Hahaha!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 19:22:55 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Marianne
Subject: It's all music and footy up this end of the M1...
Message:
Hmm, shopping and fucking? I can't say I am getting to do very much of either at the moment, Marianne.. But then, I'm up in Liverpool which is rather different from the city of my birth (London). Should I have stayed down south, I wonder..?
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Date: Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 20:01:24 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: It's all music and footy up this end of the M1...
Message:
Dear Nigel,
Jesus, I just love all you British guys. :) And you too Lee! ;)
You are such a dear, I see a little Larkin peeking out. :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 22:36:12 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Robyn
Subject: Re: It's all music and footy up this end of the M1...
Message:
Robyn... you're an absolute honey and I've decided I will marry you, after all. What are you doing on Thursday week?
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Date: Wed, Sep 22, 1999 at 12:39:26 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: It's all music and footy up this end of the M1...
Message:
Dear Nigel,
Sounds good to me! :) I have water aerobics at 1pm, after that I'm all yours! ;)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Sep 22, 1999 at 14:04:14 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Robyn
Subject: Ok, but get rid of that damn nose clip..! :-) (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 09:04:12 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: All
Subject: Let's rephrase the question, URL...
Message:
Down below, in response to your suggestion that one should 'ask with the heart of a child...' (and I assume that doesn't mean ask Mahatma Jagdeo with the heart of a child), I asked you the following:

>
...so how would you recommend I reply if one [of my kids] finds a picture of Golden Balls in the
attic and asks 'who is that, then?'

God incarnate?

Lord of the Universe?

Living Perfect Master?

A meditation teacher?

A better than average westernised guru with a nice line in Vedic folktales?

Someone who knows four very special meditation techniques (- but prefers to keep them
secret until you are ready).

Seriously, URL, what would you suggest I tell them?
>

You replied:

How 'bout, 'someone who says he can teach you something important about yourself...here's a video, you be the judge.'

But suppose they then said: 'But Daddy, you already know the meditation techniques. What difference would it make if you showed them to us, to save having to watch any videos and all the rest of it..?'

How would you reply if they were your kids, URL? Simply, what else does Mr Rawat 'teach'?

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Date: Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 01:18:41 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Leave your cheat & deceit...
Message:
I also remember the mahatmas & m saying when you come to knowledge come with a guiless heart of a child and leave you cheat 7 deceit at the door. This must have been so they could fill us up with their cheat & deceit. m always saidyou he could only fill a vessel that was empty.

Love,

Liz

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Date: Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 11:21:27 (EDT)
From: gmom
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: yep..
Message:
I was thinking about that very thing after I posted the other night. I was remembering a Knowldege selection and how in retrospect they were looking for people to be 'Bo bo' enough to fall for it. Kind of Elmer Gantry like. What is really sick is that I recall Jagdeo saying this more than others. Pointing at the little girls shining as they sat at his feet.
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Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 15:22:59 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Let's rephrase the question, URL...
Message:
Nigel, I'm of course going to have a different answer for my kids than you will, so it's really kind of a pointless question to ask me. You have little respect for the techniques, and none for the support of the techniques through videos, or for the teacher. I do. You have no appreciation for the balance and symbiotic relationship between these three elements. I think it's fair to say I have more than do you.

We would therefore undoubtedly approach such a question from two different angles. I would tell them why it works for me, and that it is something that they may one day want to investigate. You would be hard-pressed to offer anything much different than the negative advice you give on this forum? And if you do become their meditation teacher and you are wrong about all this, you would have taken away a possibility for them that one day they may want or even need. Perhaps you should consult a few people whose life has been saved and turned around by Knowledge before you take that possibility away from your children.

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Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 19:39:49 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: URL
Subject: Assertion is not explanation.
Message:
You have little respect for the techniques, and none for the support of the techniques through videos, or for the teacher. I do. You have no appreciation for the balance and symbiotic relationship between these three elements. I think it's fair to say I have more than do you.

re the techniques. The techniques are just things to do with your body and concentration. How on earth can you have 'respect' for them? - unless you mean by giving them 'a fair chance', or something. Do you imagine that in nine years of cult involvement I did no more that dip in a big toe for five seconds and say 'not for me..' ?

'Balance and symbiotic relationship' is a sheer nonsense - and I suspect an intelligent kid would pick you up on it; such as when they asked you explain Maharaji's relationship with the techniques, or the techniques' relationship with the videos.

(In the old days, of course, the 'three-legged stool' comprised satsang, service and meditation, and the premie's duty was to try and be involved in one or other of them for twenty-four hours a day.) Would you be happy to explain to your kids why the essential requirements changed so drastically over the years?

You have no appreciation for the balance and symbiotic relationship between these three elements. I think it's fair to say I have more than do you.

I think it is unfair to make any such claim unless you can explain what you mean and see whether I (or those hypothetical children) can make any sense of it.

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Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 20:31:11 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Assertion is not explanation.
Message:
'Balance and symbiotic relationship' is a sheer nonsense - and I suspect an intelligent kid would pick you up on it; such as when they asked you explain Maharaji's relationship with the techniques, or the techniques' relationship with the videos.

You forget I'm also an intelligent kid, and it makes complete sense to me.

I think most would give me little argument that based solely on your comments, you have no appreciation for the role the teacher, ie: Maharaji, plays in supporting the student in the practise of Knowledge. Watching a video or listening to him is an incredible and deeply experienced reminder of why the techniques are even practised. As he said in Amaroo on Saturday, everything in this world reminds you about something else. There are very few reminders out there about the fulfilment that is possible within this moment. Maharaji is the ONLY person who has done this consistently and without fail. You haven't nigel, nor has any other person, premie ex or otherwise. And I have quite a craving to be fulfilled -- hence my need to listen to him.

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Date: Wed, Sep 22, 1999 at 10:26:49 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: Super Bowl Sunday
Message:
Watching a video or listening to him is an incredible and deeply experienced reminder of why the techniques are even practised.

I guess what URL is saying here is that Maharaji is the hype before the main event. In the states, there's a sporting event called Super Bowl Sunday. It's as popular as baseball's world series. It's the final showdown between the two best teams in football to see who's going to walk away with the season's championship. For about ten hours before the actual game there is so much hype about who's who on both teams, a look at the personal lives of the players, endless analysis of both teams' strategies, etc. etc. And then finally the fucking game is played. Often, the game turns out to be a dud that doesn't live up to the hype. But the point is that the hype isn't a requirement for enjoying the game. In fact, the hype is just that, hype. It's the fucking game that I want to see, and I know this. I DON'T NEED A REMINDER THAT I WANT TO WATCH THE SUPER BOWL. I already know that.

For premies to say that they need Maharaji to remind them to meditate because they will otherwise forget because there's nothing in the world to remind them is stupid. Don't you know already if you want to meditate or not? I mean, there was a time when I couldn't wait for the Super Bowl to start. I sat on the edge of my seat because it meant that much to me. People are always anxiously anticipating the time they get to do what they most want to, their vacation, a movie they want to see, a concert they want to go to, or even just 5 o'clock so they can just go home. But when it comes to the, supposedly, true fulfillment that happens when you practice Knowledge, well, that's easily forgettable and you need to be reminded. URL, do you have any idea what a crock of shit this sounds like? Who do you think you're kiddng? Why don't you bullshit people less wise to your act, because, you dumb fuck, we've all been there, done that.

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Date: Wed, Sep 22, 1999 at 16:24:48 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: NO MAS!
Message:
For premies to say that they need Maharaji to remind them to meditate because they will otherwise forget because there's nothing in the world to remind them is stupid. Don't you know already if you want to meditate or not?

You stupid, unconcious idiot! You don't have a fucking clue what Knowledge is for, and therefore what Maharaji's role is. Statements like this is indicative of just how ignorant you are about the subject, and of how far off you were as a premie from an understanding of the message. I tell you, the analogy of the pig farmer finding a diamond and throwing it away thinking it was a piece of glass REALLY, REALLY applies to you guys. You do not have any appreciation of a jeweller. As a matter of fact you only feel comfortable around other pig farmers, and you think jewellers are idiots for valuing so highly these bothersome pieces of glass. I'm tired of trying to reason with pig farmers. I'm just really glad there are people besides myself who have an appreciation of the value of a diamond. If you guys want to slop around in your pig fields for the rest of your lives, who the fuck cares. No mas!

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Date: Thurs, Sep 23, 1999 at 09:07:54 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: Adios!
Message:
You don't have a fucking clue what Knowledge if for, and therefore what Maharaji's role is.

Knowledge is for people gullible enough to believe that there's something special, unique, and magical about it. Maharaji's role is to keep you that gullible.

As for the story about the farmer and the jeweler, the only people who rely on such stories are ones trying to get over on you, or in this case, you over on me. Keep it, URL. You're full of shit.

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Date: Wed, Sep 22, 1999 at 23:33:10 (EDT)
From: An occassional Observer
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: MAS
Message:
This doesn't say much about the ability of your teacher to teach.
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Date: Wed, Sep 22, 1999 at 16:47:36 (EDT)
From: The High Tribunal
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: Re: NO MAS!
Message:
Your High Tribunal hopes it is wrong but we predict this dude can stay away for no longer than 2 weeks.

Shall we start a pool??

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Date: Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 05:40:15 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: URL
Subject: So Daddy, are you saying that if M died tomorrow...
Message:
...without leaving an appointed successor, then experiences 'of the heart' will be lost to mankind?

If the answer is 'no', than how can how can he be indispensible to his devotees' experiences of the heart?

If the answer is 'yes', then shouldn't you ask yourself whether you are in a cult? (Or, at the very least, a personality cult, if being constantly 'inspired' or 'reminded' by Maharaji and Maharaji alone is a vital element of your experience of the heart.)

If the answer is ' I don't know' - then isn't it time you gave the matter some thought?

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Date: Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 09:27:43 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Nigel
Subject: A quick resume of the discussion so far...
Message:
Ok, let's have a quick recap. It was your suggestion that I might tell my kids:

How 'bout, 'someone who says he can teach you something important about yourself...here's a video, you be the judge.'

...that prompted the question which started the thread:

But suppose they then said: 'But Daddy, you already know the meditation techniques. What difference would it make if you showed them to us, to save having to watch any videos and all the rest of it..?' How would you reply if they were your kids, URL? Simply, what else does Mr Rawat 'teach'?

If we just focus on the exchanges which relate to this question alone, we can boil them down to the the following:

(URL): You have little respect for the techniques, and none for the support of the techniques through videos, or for the teacher. I do. You have no appreciation for the balance and symbiotic relationship between these three elements. I think it's fair to say I have more than do you.

(Nigel): 'Balance and symbiotic relationship' is a sheer nonsense - and I suspect an intelligent kid would pick you up on it; such as when they asked you explain Maharaji's relationship with the techniques, or the techniques' relationship with the videos.

(URL): You forget I'm also an intelligent kid, and it makes complete sense to me. I think most would give me little argument that based solely on your comments, you have no appreciation for the role the teacher, ie: Maharaji, plays in supporting the student in the practise of Knowledge. Watching a video or listening to him is an incredible and deeply experienced reminder of why the techniques are even practised.

It seems to me we have come full circle and the original question remains unanswered (ie. What does Maharaji 'teach' over and above the mere techniques?) As far as a three-way symbiotic relationship goes, the closest you have come to explaining any such relationship between, say, M and the meditation is to say that M serves as a reminder to practice those techniques. Ok, so far? - Right... now as you know there are quite a lot of exes who still meditate...

(I don't meditate nowadays, partly because it is too much of an intrusion into getting other things done - and on a deeper level, the practice of meditation actually feels like a shutting out and denial of the REAL 'me', by which I me the part of me I actually care about, and the part of me which can love and interact with other human beings. The part of me where I consider my 'heart' to be really located - rather than as some isolated personal 'experience' topped up with the periodic group highs found at programs.)

But say I was one of those exes who did still value meditation (and my kids knew I valued it), surely they could quite reasonably repeat the question that started all this, with one minor addition:

'But you already know the meditation techniques, Daddy. What difference would it make if you showed them to us, and then you reminded us to practice knowledge, to save having to watch any videos and all the rest of it..?''

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Date: Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 22:02:34 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: A quick resume of the discussion so far...
Message:
But Nigel,

M has the light going through his bottom and out the top of his head. It has gone that way through the lineage of Satgurus for hundreds of years. He's superhuman - the techniques are nothing by themselves bla bla bla. Not quite sure why Sohum can't be initiated by anyone....... may be it becomes too Hohum. The music is from the heavenly spheres; if you gave knowledge it may only be body noises. The nectar is like manna from heaven; if you taught it might be snot.

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Date: Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 15:06:25 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: A quick resume of the discussion so far...
Message:
I don't meditate nowadays, partly because it is too much of an intrusion into getting other things done - and on a deeper level, the practice of meditation actually feels like a shutting out and denial of the REAL 'me'...

I often feel this way. If, by chance I find myself naturally gravitate toward a meditative state, something like just watching rain fall, or leaves blow, or just focusing on the rhythm of my breath and the inner 'light' as I nod off to sleep, that's fine and good. But to set time aside for it, if I'm really not interested, makes it a chore and an act that the 'real' me just isn't interested in. This makes me think that the premie argument that Maharaji is important because he 'inspires' them to practice sounds like typical premie horseshit, you know, the kind of crap we would tell ourselves that deep down inside we knew was, how do you Brits say it, bollocks? Yeah, that's it, bollocks. Great word.

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Date: Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 20:17:40 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Jerry
Subject: In the downpour of the soothing, ordinary rain...
Message:
Shit, Jerry, why do I ever start talking to this guy..? Same pattern every time - 'my experience is evidence enough - Trust me, kids...' (I suspect it was the same non-discriminating trust of premies-with-conviction that got me involved with the cult in the first place...)

I try and hold back my distain but - let's face it - the relationship's over. URL ain't the person I was hoping he might be, I mean a self-confessed intelligent premie (spelling up to scratch and he can use a semi-colon), and who appears willing to tell us why the living bullshit merchant isn't such a living bullshit merchant after all falls back on 'THE ARGUMENT FROM MY SUPERIOR UNDERSTANDING...' (I will attempt a transcription for lesser beings: 'I understand this shit. You obviously didn't...')

(URL even uses many of the expressions I did in arguments with my sister back in 1980, when she was an evangelical and I was a premie with a URL-like passion to deflect every last criticism of Maharaji with my SUPERIOR UNDERSTANDING.)

Sorry, Jer, that ain't actually why I replied here... I wanted to say that you expressed precisely (and better) my feelings in regard to meditation and the way it might, or might not, slot in with the rest of your life. I mean, your examples of watching the rain fall or seeing light as you go to sleep...
Exactly! - It happens when it happens, and probably for good biological reasons. If your mind or your body need reminding to take notice, then they're probably being reminded to take notice of something they don't don't need reminding of right now. They will remember when they feel like it. Anything else is just bullying from Maharaji or fellow-cult members (or from your own confused, cult-conditioned mind).

And what has Maharaji got to do with it..?

Isn't he just hijacking a natural human need to chill out and still the passions, fears and stresses of life for as long as is necessary? It is not as if premies love meditation that much that others have to intervene to prevent them spending all day under the blanket.

There is something of a Catch 22 in this idea that someone else has to remind you to meditate. I mean, what if you needed to be reminded to attend video events, or a community coordinator needed to remind you there was a program coming up..? I shudder to think what might transpire if they forgot to inspire and remind because they themselves hadn't been inspired or reminded recently...

Glad I am not in a cult.

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Date: Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 21:22:07 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk
To: Nigel
Subject: A sales plan that (almost) works
Message:
Let's face it, a person either wants to meditate or they don't. Nothing anyone says is going to make any difference to them in the long term.

Maharaji has got nothing else to talk about since meditation or knowledge has a proven track record for him as being the best sales pitch. He is not about to talk about the brotherhood of man or compassion or anything because it's out of his territory. He's trained to sell the knowledge and it works for him, selling it that is.

I'm in marketing myself. It pays to specialise in one particular market because over the years you develope experience of that market which holds you in good stead through good and bad times. You get a feel for what your clients want, what turns them on and what will get them eagerly writing out cheques.

Actually, Maharaji is not that good at marketing. A successful businessman will not lose 90% of his clients because a winner in marketing will look for long term profits from repeat sales from happy, contented clients.

Now, if Maharaji employed me as his marketing advisor, I could tell him how he should do it. But then he would have to admit to everybody that he's just running a business. His lack of knowledge about what makes his prospective clients tick, is alarming. He plays them for fools which is a big mistake in any marketing strategy.

Maharaji's sales plan has only worked for this long because of the huge wave of success which he surfed for all its worth when he first came to the West in the early seventies. The wave finally fizzled out in about 1983 and it's been downhill since then. He will try every variation of the original sales plan but without the knowledge and understanding of what makes his clients tick - he will never regain the lost ground.

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Date: Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 21:44:15 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Sir Dave
Subject: He abandoned his best asset
Message:
Well said, David.

The wave finally fizzled out in about 1983 and it's been downhill since then.

I think the abandonment of community satsang caused the rot to set in. I don't think Maharaji had any conception of the function it served as a social glue that had up to that point kept his followers united in a common purpose, and at the same time done all his propagation for him.

So why did he drop satsang? I have no idea - unless it was some anal control-freak need to have total control of every word spoken on his behalf. Or he thought there would be better income from hiring out videos..?

The best satsangs were never given by Maharaji. His were boring as crap compared to the best satsangs given by those one or two premies you would find in the average community whose (in those days, unscripted) efforts not only provided a plausible interface with new aspirants, but probably went a long way to keeping the the premies coming back for more.

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Date: Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 22:02:15 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: He abandoned his best asset
Message:
'The best satsangs were never given by Maharaji. His were boring as crap compared to the best satsangs given by those one or two premies you would find in the average community whose (in those days, unscripted) efforts not only provided a plausible interface with new aspirants, but probably went a long way to keeping the the premies coming back for more.'

Very, very true that. I remember Anth used to give a mean satsang, so did I when the spirit moved me and it was dear old Mr Glen who first inspired me to investigate getting K. At one point, satsang in London (around 1972) was like going to the Comedy Store. Glen would have everyone in stitches and the Anand Band would strike up a tune on the old Joanna and we'd be in the seventh heaven.

I always dared not admit it then but I found Maharaji's satsangs to be mind numbingly tedious in comparison.

It's past our bedtime!

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Date: Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 22:16:57 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Sir Dave
Subject: 'It's past our bedtime!' - (yet again!)
Message:
And I bet you haven't done your two hours mediation, either. No wonder our consiousnesses will never reach that elevated kingdom of wisdom exemplified by our friend Mr Url.

Night, night...

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Date: Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 20:41:51 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: That explains it!
Message:
I mean, your examples of watching the rain fall or seeing light as you go to sleep...

Exactly! - It happens when it happens, and probably for good biological reasons. If your mind or your body need reminding to take notice, then they're probably being reminded to take notice of something they don't don't need reminding of right now. They will remember when they feel like it. Anything else is just bullying from Maharaji or fellow-cult members (or from your own confused, cult-conditioned mind).

Do I detect a few guesses and assumptions here nigel? Could this pattern of yours explain just a few of the problems you had back in the '80's understanding what Knowledge was REALLY about?

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Date: Wed, Sep 22, 1999 at 00:21:46 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: That explains diddly!
Message:
URL, if there really is something to Knowledge I will admit that I don't know what that is. But I did bullshit people at one time that I did. Give me one good reason why I should believe that you're bullshiting less, now, than I was, then. As far as I'm concerned, you're just as full of shit about Knowledge as anybody ever was, including you know who.
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Date: Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 21:39:14 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: Fuck you, you coward!
Message:
Url,

You're an asshole. You're too weak to think or speak clearly and you're even trying to ridicule Nigel for doing just that. People speculate, fuckface. Just because you're afraid to look past your blinders, don't expect the rest of the world to act that way.

And wipe that smile off your face when I'm talking to you!!

You have absolutely no basis, none at all, for attacking Nigel's 'experience' as a premie. The only difference that I can tell between you two is that he's willing to look at it openly and you're not. There's not a shred of evidence that he was ever less committed, trusting or steeped in whatever other unfortunate quality that allowed us all to stay in the cult, than you. It's not as if Nigel, 'as we all know', never really practised k and now, years later, says it wasn't much. Unless you've got that evidence, you stupid, snivelling creep, you can shove that bullshit argument exactly where it belongs. You might have to tell Maharaji to get out of the way first, of course.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 23, 1999 at 16:26:13 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Once more with feeling!
Message:
You have absolutely no basis, none at all, for attacking Nigel's 'experience' as a premie. The only difference that I can tell between you two is that he's willing to look at it openly and you're not. There's not a shred of evidence that he was ever less committed, trusting or steeped in whatever other unfortunate quality that allowed us all to stay in the cult, than you. It's not as if Nigel, 'as we all know', never really practised k and now, years later, says it wasn't much.

Jim I read your message after I sent my last post and really wanted the chance to let you know what a stupid and dishonest excuse for a rational man I think you are. No, I'm not saying that just to get you back for your insulting behaviour or to try to get one up on you. You really are one dumb and scummy mother-fucker.

Take for example how you try and pass off this red-herring as an argument to my post regarding nigel's fantasies about reality -- that you've somehow characterised as harmless 'speculation'. This nauseatingly plebeian answer of yours has nothing to do with my observation that while nigel was a premie he most probably based his experience of Knowledge and the nature of the universe on just the kind of wild speculation that he blatantly demonstrated in his post. And this tendency of his speaks volumes about the origins of his confusion about Knowledge and Maharaji.

And your tantrum insisting on him having as equal a footing as anyone else just because he did his time with the rest of us is ridiculous! If these demonstrated assumptions and speculations are exemplary of what he based his understanding of Knowledge and Maharaji on while a practising premie -- which we have no reason to believe it's not -- it wouldn't have mattered how much time he did. His tendency to make up reality as he goes would always keep him confused about the real nature of Knowledge, which he clearly is today -- as are you Jim, due I'm sure to similar tendencies.

So just because it was you, I wanted to respond to your post to keep you honest, and one last time tell you what an extreme prick I think you are -- extremely arrogant; extremely obnoxious; extremely stupid; extremely dishonest; and with the wisdom of an extreme fruit fly. Fuck you bud!

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Date: Thurs, Sep 23, 1999 at 20:23:31 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: Re: Once more with feeling!
Message:
Url,

I guess I'd have to fall back on my 'reasonable man' argument. Do you think that any disinterested but informed outsider would ever agree with you that Nigel's speculations reflect a seriously flawed approach to M & K?
I say the answer's a resounding 'no'. So what's that leave you with? Fellow cult members?

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Date: Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 11:59:50 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Once more with feeling!
Message:
I guess I'd have to fall back on my 'reasonable man' argument. Do you think that any disinterested but informed outsider would ever agree with you that Nigel's speculations reflect a seriously flawed approach to M & K?

First find me a reasonable man, then I'll convince him of the folly of nigel's speculations. And don't try to pawn yourself off as one, please.

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Date: Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 03:53:13 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Jim
Subject: There's speculation and there's speculation...
Message:
Ta for picking up the bat, Jim. I'm through with trying to talk to this, well, er... inidosyncratic individual (though 'individual' might be pushing it, somewhat), Just like to make the point that there is a difference betweeninformed speculation (eg. that all conscious experience and thought are functions of biological brain-processes) and uninformed speculation (what kind of a premie Nigel used to be; How many yogic powers does Maharaji really possess...)
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Date: Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 11:53:19 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: There's speculation and there's speculation...
Message:
Nigel you're really showing how stupid you are. Yeah, some speculation is valuable, such as scientific speculation that opens doors to discovery. Then there's speculation that is based upon a well-understood body of knowledge, the kind you are probably calling informed. So what was yours Einstein? You didn't say you were putting forward a hypothesis for scientific experimentation, so it's not that one. Let's have another look:

I mean, your examples of watching the rain fall or seeing light as you go to sleep... Exactly! - It happens when it happens, and probably for good biological reasons. If your mind or your body need reminding to take notice, then they're probably being reminded to take notice of something they don't don't need reminding of right now. They will remember when they feel like it.'

Hey, it wasn't the second one either. So what could it be?? Let me offer a suggestion. Wild and uninformed speculation by an idiot on a topic he knows nothing about that satisfies his myopic explanation of existence and justifies his own laziness. Do you know how your mind and body really work, what they really need and when they need it? What's the difference between your so-called informed explanation and that "reiki flake" that lives in the flat down the road? Or that "astrologist asshole" over whom you love to claim some intellectual superiority? I'll be so bold as to suggest that you are chuck full of assumptions nigel. And you know, that wouldn't be so bad but for the stupidity and arrogance in thinking there's nothing wrong with it.

So Einstein, whatcha got under the hood of that baby -- a 9 volt battery.

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Date: Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 21:03:20 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redrow.demon.co.uk
To: URL
Subject: Do you really want to know?
Message:
Your quote:

'You didn't say you were putting forward a hypothesis for scientific experimentation, so it's not that one'

My reply:

Formulating hypotheses and running experiments is what I'm doing at the moment - and have been for a while - and in the research area under discussion.

Are you interested in either the hypotheses or results?

As for the body of knowledge that informs the speculation - why not try reading a few science books and stop looking to the Fount of All Wisdom for easy answers?

(It is much more enjoyable, for one thing.)

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Date: Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 22:56:37 (EDT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Haven't you got it yet Jim?
Message:
He knows what happened in the past because his master told him. He doesn't know from first hand experience. It is his double standard. He told me about the mistakes we all made in the ashrams in the 70's. He wasn't there he doesn't have a clue. He BELIEVES IT ALL . It is simply a beflief system based on a lie . Thats what makes M's con game work.
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Date: Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 21:28:24 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: URL
Subject: I wasn't talking to you. (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 21:52:39 (EDT)
From: Sir David
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: Re: Assertion is not explanation.
Message:
And I have quite a craving to be fulfilled -- hence my need to listen to him.

You mean, after all this time and all these years, you still haven't become fulfilled by the knowledge? If Maharaji were to suddenly get run over by a bus, would you remain unfulfilled?

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Date: Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 05:45:30 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co
To: Sir David
Subject: Just a coincidence, Sir Dave
Message:
Jeez, we sound like premies, don't we - coming out with the same question like that..? Actually, I typed my reply to URL before reading yours. I guess it's either synchronicity - or somewhere along the line we must have been listening to the thoughts of the same antichrist.
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Date: Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 06:04:16 (EDT)
From: CdM
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: Re: Cringing Parent
Message:
Over the last five or six years I have had to talk to my kids at various times about the struggles of growing up. The hardships talked about have been the mind crunching realization that (a) the tooth fairy didn't really exist and (b) that Santa Clause was also a fantasy.

It was not a joy to have to explain the truth to them. No kid likes to hear the hard facts. But you see they already had their doubts and they were asking questions. If a tooth fell out without mum or dad knowing, a financial reward did not arrive. Or the rich kid at school get's more for his teeth than us. Has the fairy no sense of fairness?

Having explained that it was all fun while it lasted and everyone enjoys the mystery etc. it is actually a major hurdle trying to explain Maharaji to them a few years later. I mean, they're on their guard this time.

Unless you get them while they're much younger as the more successful religions do it you're gonna be in for some serious head banging sessions. As they've got older questions have become more difficult. My son in particular showed me my own contradictions. My answers were never satifactory (even for myself), my kids would look at me out of the corner of their eyes as though I was mad. Why was I so vague about this subject when I was so much more confident about other matters. I'd spent so much time trying to get them to 'be smart, get streetwise, don't get fooled' it was all falling back on me. I had to take a bloody good look at this whole thing if I was to continue with honesty.

Today they're not very happy about the fact that Lee and I are having to work this whole thing out of our systems. However I think that deep down they're relieved that it's over. Communication is far better now.

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Date: Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 09:24:01 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: CdM
Subject: Re: Cringing Parent
Message:
Thanks Charlie. I was out of it before the kids came along, and I really don't envy you the kind of interactions you must have had to go through with your own children (which seem pretty close to how I imagine mine might also have been had I stuck around longer). I don't know whether URL has children, or is merely dealing with the hypothetical variety - who are, of course, far more easily pursuaded by cult-logic than are the kind made of flesh and blood, a healthy curiosity and more common sense than they are often credited with.
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Date: Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 19:31:50 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Cringing Parent
Message:
Nigel when's the last time you actually met a premie? How time has tarnished you're image of us with fear and dogma.

Look, I would not want to pressure in any way my children or anybody else for that matter into pursuing Knowledge? I get nothing out of it. Believe me, I would STRONGLY encourage anybody interested to examine their understanding of what it is, their need for such a thing, and whether or not they were going to be able to practise it.

No, I don't go around pushing this on ANYBODY. I do however take issue when people put road blocks up to people getting a clear understanding of what it's REALLY about by peddling their fears and dogma as truth. '...far more easily pursuaded by cult-logic ...' -- Shhesh, you really need to get out more!

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Date: Wed, Sep 22, 1999 at 00:35:29 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: Are you able?
Message:
Believe me, I would STRONGLY encourage anybody interested to examine their understanding of what it is, their need for such a thing, and whether or not they were going to be able to practise it.

Url, what does able to practice it mean? Are you suggesting that practicing Knowledge would be too difficult for some people? URL, we're talking about focusing attention on the breath, here. Ya understand? Why would somebody be unable to do that? Could you explain that to me? 'Cause I really don't see what's so difficult about that.

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Date: Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 21:22:21 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: URL
Subject: naah, forget it...
Message:
Realised how many words I was wasting, and for what?

You have a moral and philosophical blindspot, URL, which makes you a coward, as Jim put it. I'm sure there are others here who will try in vain to engage in meaningful dialogue with you, if that's what you think you're doing, but I'm done with you.

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Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 19:01:30 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: And how's that, Url?
Message:
I would tell them why it works for me, and that it is something that they may one day want to investigate.

How should they 'investigate' your little somethin' somethin'? Should they learn about Maharaji, where he came from, the whole story of the Ride-my-pony gurus and how much internecine warfare there's been throughout the history of the lineage? Would you ask them to 'investigate' Maharaji with an open mind, testing both your own hypothesis (that Maharaji's A-ok) and the alternative (that he's not)?

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Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 19:36:57 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: And how's that, Url?
Message:
Would you ask them to 'investigate' Maharaji with an open mind, testing both your own hypothesis (that Maharaji's A-ok) and the alternative (that he's not)?

Of course. That's the only way it works. By that time in their development I would hope that if I could be an example of something, it would not be somebody who practises Knowledge but sombody who is true to their heart and honest. That's because the heart is the ONLY vector that will guide them through all the information and conflicting opinions, and honesty is needed to assure the heart is satisfied with the conclusions.

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Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 20:32:33 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: Hey, not so fast!!
Message:
Url, buddy, you forgot to answer the first part of my post. Here, I'll break it down for you:

How should they 'investigate' your little somethin' somethin'?

and --

Should they learn about Maharaji, where he came from, the whole story of the Ride-my-pony gurus and how much internecine warfare there's been throughout the history of the lineage?

You know what I'm asking. Please don't pretend otherwise. How much, if any, of the scandal surrounding Maharaji would you apprise your kids of?

But, here, Url, is a little thought experiment to help you answer in case you're stuck. Imagine that a kid of yours goes to an introductory program with you. At a certain point they start to ask questions. (I mean, they still allow questions at some point along the line, don't they?). There you are sitting quietly, hoping with all the love in your heart that Junior is 'getting it' and will soon enough enjoy the secret of all secrets you've based your life on. You're proud of your child. You love your child. And, of course, you love your guru. It's a Kodak moment.

Okay, a little turbulence. Junior snags on to some pesky issue that you don't recall ever discussing with him. Who knows? Maybe he's read some of the 'nonsense' on this site! In any event, he starts asking all the 'hard' questions. You know, the money, the 'God-in-Human-Form' stuff, the family split. The works.

So here's the thought experiment: imagine you're sitting there and, on account of your years of cult involvement, you know exactly when Junior's going too far. You know when he's exceeded his one or two polite question quota and premie eyes are starting to roll. In fact, that point's long since passed and Junior's starting to try the nerves of the instructor or whoever you've got up there.

What would you do, Url? Would you try to shut your kid up or at least hope that he shuts up? Or would you be cheering him on in his search for some answers?

Hm?

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Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 21:19:25 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Hey, not so fast!!
Message:
Look Jim, Maharaji answers a specific need in a person that you clearly don't have. Do I contend that you have the same set of needs as do I. No, I don't. Do I need the same things that you do? I hope not. For example, I don't care at all about Satpal, or the Rhado-what-chama-call-it lineage, blah, blah, blah. It is totally irrelevant. Why? Because Maharaji showed me the truth that was within me, that was always within me but I just didn't know about it. That ALONE gives him credibility. Don't you get it, he showed me something that is true. After that who gives a shit what Satpal does. Would I present all that stuff that you are so hung up on to my child? Not if it was irrelevant to HIS quest to satisfy an inner thirst.

What would you do, Url? Would you try to shut your kid up or at least hope that he shuts up? Or would you be cheering him on in his search for some answers?

I would hope that I would never shut him up, and I would support him in finding the answers to his true quest. Why? Because that ultimately will make him the happiest. How about you?

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Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 21:53:56 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: Do I detect a witty-bitty weasle word?
Message:
Would I present all that stuff that you are so hung up on to my child? Not if it was irrelevant to HIS quest to satisfy an inner thirst.

And who's going to decide what's 'relevant'? Is that your call, dad?

****

I would hope that I would never shut him up, and I would support him in finding the answers to his true quest. Why? Because that ultimately will make him the happiest. How about you? (Emphasis added).

Again, what's with the qualifier? Are you saying that you'd first decide what his 'true' quest was and only help him get answers that fit that bill? Sounds like a shoehorn into the cult to me.

Put it this way, Url: What if your kid announced himself as decidedly skeptical, to say the least, about Maharaji. Say he claimed to want information only to better understand what happened to you. Would you help him learn all about Maharaji on his own terms?

Say the kid asked you about Maharaji's family. Would you tell him about the other half that set up their own dealership over the hill in the next valley? What would you say to all this?

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Date: Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 15:55:05 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Do I detect a witty-bitty weasle word?
Message:
Say the kid asked you about Maharaji's family. Would you tell him about the other half that set up their own dealership over the hill in the next valley? What would you say to all this?

I'll repeat what I said to you in previous post and leave it at that. 'I would hope that I would never shut him up, and I would support him in finding the answers tohis true quest. Why? Because that ultimately will make him the happiest.'

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Date: Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 21:07:53 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: Okay, here's how this works
Message:
Url,

You're busted. The fact that you won't go any further in this discussion reminds me of someone dealing with the police. What happened? Did you consult a premie lawyer who advised you to make no further statements or something? Forget it, Url, you've said it all. The fact is you'd be happy to see your kids join the cult and would not at all support their efforts to investigate it properly. Shame on you, bud.

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Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 10:34:08 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Grossly negligent parenting
Message:
So Url answered Nigel's hypothetical question about what one should say if their kid found a picture of Maharaji and asked who he is like this:

How 'bout, 'someone who says he can teach you something important about yourself...here's a video, you be the judge.'

That's appalling. Not to mention cowardly. It's an abdication of all that's important in being a parent. Twenty-five years ago, premies knew exactly what to tell their kids: Maharaji was God. Now, though, as it's so painfully clear that nothing is clear about Maharaji anymore and that there are significant reasons to, at the very least, question Maharaji, Url sidesteps the whole issue and knowingly risks exposing his kid to the same trap he knows that he himself might be in.

'Hey, dad, does that disk have a virus on it?'

'Beats me, son, why not stick it in your computer and find out?'

Of course it's even worse than that. What if, for argument's sake, the kid liked what he saw and wanted more? Say the kid dove into Maharajiville like there was no tomorrow. Completely bought into everything with no sense whatsoever of Maharaji's past. Would Url ever tell him? Would Url ever feel obliged to tell his kid about Satpal for instance? 'By the way, son, I think you should know that Maharaji has an older brother who claims that he is the rightful heir to the family business' Or would Url subscribe to the notion that the less his kid knew about Maharaji's past the better? After all, why give someone a whole lot of information that can only confuse them, right?

Disgusting.

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Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 12:06:47 (EDT)
From: gregg
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: dirty pictures
Message:
I don't mind telling people I used to be in a cult, but if my daughter ever finds that old Divine Times I kept with Maharaj Ji on the cover, his flubbery torso bedecked with blue flowers, his head topped with that Krishna crown, there's going to be one seriously embarrassed dad wondering exactly how to eexplain this one. I'd rather 'fess up to my illegal drug us any day.
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Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 12:46:39 (EDT)
From: gmom
Email: None
To: gregg
Subject: It happened to me...
Message:
This is how I became 'Gmom'. A true story. My teenage son looks over my shoulder when I first found this website.

'What is THAT mom? Is that the Maraji guy that Dad used to talk about? Why were you in that? Why do you want to read it now? mom???'

I was DUMBSTRUCK. I was so overloaded by finding the site after so many years and all these memories came flooding back. I could not deal with my son's questions at that moment. I was so embarrassed.

So...the next time I sign on this kid named 'Gunther Gobblespeak' has posted saying 'my mom used to be in this cult and will not TALK to me about it. Why?'

AHHHHHHHHHH....I find Chris is giving MY SON SATSANG! I swear my mother tiger hairs went up. I felt like Chris was offering 'Gunther' heroin. I really did. ( Sorry I just read my daughter's Catcher in the Rye)

So I find myself posting as 'Gunther's mom'. It was one of those times in life you get to redo history a bit. You see, I became a premie at 13. I now wish my mom had been able to tell the premies to stay away. I posted really nasty posts to Chis. I was SO angry that my child was being satsanged.

I also had a long talk with my dear Gunther ( no I did not inflict my child with that name, nor did Rawat name him as my husband wanted) it was chosen as a psuedonym by my very funny son. He was voted class clown by his senior class . It was a good talk and I was able to
talk to him about this period in my life and hopefully inoculate him against cultspeak. Also, JW and others posted wonderful posts to Gunther about why a parent could be embarrassed about having been a premie and what made us become premies.

Then my dear Gunther started taking on Chris himself. Gunther was most fasicnated by the idea that someone sticking his tongue up the back of his throat could fall for the idea the taste of his mucus was divine nectar. He mentioned this quite a bit in his little debates with Chris.

I had to apologize to Chris. I went off at him with years full of rage at being a cult member at such a young age combined with rage someone would try to do the same to my own child. Chris was only saying the very thing I did when I was in the cult, trying so hard to recruit my junior high friends. I was not very successful, thankfully, only hooked one, and she quickly became disenchanted.

I think the evolution of Gmom is a pretty funny story. I am about ready to start using my real first name here. Though I have been Gmom for so long that I am afraid no one would recognzie who was posting!

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Date: Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 08:11:47 (EDT)
From: Start a thread when you make your name change
Email: None
To: gmom
Subject: Re: It happened to me..nt
Message:
sfth
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Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 13:14:16 (EDT)
From: Grace
Email: None
To: gmom
Subject: Re: It happened to me...
Message:
Thanks for telling the story about your son and how the name came about, interesting.
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Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 13:54:12 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Grace
Subject: Re: It happened to me...
Message:
Gmom: Your story chilled me. Gmom, you are one of the moral pillars of this site. Your evolving understanding of the cult and your willingness to confront your cult abuser are very inspiring. In fact, you are a sort of archtypal mother for all of us here by taking on the cult and exposing its dark underbelly. I think Jagdeo will be the first domino to go, and that many will follow, thanks to your courage.

Love, Marianne

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Date: Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 14:35:49 (EDT)
From: kmdarling
Email: unlimited@aol.com
To: Marianne
Subject: I knew Gmom
Message:
I knew Gmom back in ye ole days. She was great. Young, innocent and pregnant (presumably with G!).

I want to keep the Jagdeo debate active here. I saw in someone’s post that the two people around M who were told about the abuse and claimed to have told M were Judy Osborne and Randy Proudy, both of whom I knew. Are they still premies? If M didn't protect minors and allowed Jagdeo to continue as an instructor, he is guilty of abuse. However he may hide behind his honchos, he is clearly the CEO with ultimate and veto power of everything. As I remember it, he was still sent around to communities, but there had to be a “watcher” with him. I am quite certain I remember hearing this from some insider. I recall thinking it was appalling at the time. Why send a pedophile at all? Anyway, this means, to me, that M absolutely knew about the abuses.

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Date: Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 15:06:47 (EDT)
From: Gmom
Email: None
To: kmdarling
Subject: Re: I knew Gmom
Message:
yes, I knew Katie. She and her then husband showed myself and G's father incredible generosity allowing us to live in their apartment in Miami at a very difficult time in my life.

Since I just noticed that Randy and Judy's names were in Anth's Glenn anthology now is a good time to explain a little more about that. It is also a good time to become Susan, my real name, and I will post that at the top.

Katie, I have never heard that Jagdeo had a 'watcher' other than hoping he did when I saw him at programs. Can you recall where and when you heard that?

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Date: Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 17:11:40 (EDT)
From: kmdarling
Email: unlimited@aol.com
To: Gmom
Subject: Re: I knew Gmom
Message:
I can’t remember at all. There are so many gigabytes of memory about the whole thing. It was some probing conversation I had with someone over a decade ago, among many other probing conversations. I don’t think it would come back even if you hypnotized me. However, if you gave me truth serum, I’m pretty sure that it would be true––at least true that I heard it from an insider.
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Date: Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 19:32:01 (EDT)
From: gerry, dearest
Email: None
To: km, darling
Subject: All while wearing a red nightie
Message:
. It was some probing conversation I had with someone over a decade ago, among many other probing conversations.

You weren't, by chance abducted by aliens, where you? They can be such pests this time of the year.

I don’t think it would come back even if you hypnotized me. However, if you gave me truth serum, I’m pretty sure that it would be true––at least true that I heard it from an insider.

How 'bout if you were hypnotised, given truth serum, forcefed apple jelly sandwiches, made to stare at Goober's picture and sing Arti for sixteen hours straight? Would you talk then, hmmm???

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Date: Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 15:22:17 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Gmom
Subject: Welcome Gmom --- Susan!
Message:
Welcome to the Forum Gmom-Susan! Could you be both when you sign on & off? Your example is an inspiration to us all.

Much love, Marianne

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Date: Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 14:21:39 (EDT)
From: kmdarling
Email: unlimited@aol.com
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: It happened to me...
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 04:06:15 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Blasts from the Deja News past
Message:
--
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
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Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 18:31:26 (EDT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: Re: Blasts from the Deja News past
Message:
I think it is Mili that repeatedly misspelled
-losers- and also lewsing or loosing or lose uh ing.

Good find.

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Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 08:41:47 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: Re: Blasts from the Deja News past
Message:
If you look carefully on the old DejaNews posts you'll see my first ever post to alt.support.ex-cult in which I put forward a possible defence for Maharaji, that he could be the Lord after all. You'll see a few interesting replies with Jim being notably restrained and polite.

But what about the other Lord of the Universe? Why did he leave a promising political career in the Indian government?

Here's why Satpal Maharaj went back to the guru business. It looks like he went true to Rawat form and declined to answer the questions put to him.

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Date: Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 22:10:51 (EDT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Re: Blasts from the Deja News past
Message:
Sir David,
do you have the satpal news item on your disc?
Can you?
I dont know how to save that to disc but I would like
to for a future bbj web site.
Could you?
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Date: Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 17:29:45 (EDT)
From: Fly
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Get your walletts out
Message:
It's sat(guru)'lite time again.

Yes folks, time for another whizzo funfilled sunday evening live (well, recorded actually) downlink from you-know-who.

Check your local information hotline for venues, or call 818-889-0500 for silky smooth announcment from EV

This broadcast comes to you tonite courtesy of Dish Network, who, interestingly enough, have this to say on their website:

Public/Private broadcasting

Properties that qualify as Public/Commercial are:

Restaurants/Bars Schools/Universities
Health Clubs Private Offices/Buildings
Churches Sporting Venues
Retail Stores Golf Courses
Dental/Doctor Offices Lobbies/Lounges Airports Day Rooms

The type of commercial establishment in which the services will be viewed determines programming availability and pricing. However, in NO event shall the owner of any commercial establishment charge an admission fee for the listening or viewing of, any service(s) provided by the DISH Network. Please refer to the Public/Private definitions link below.(my emphasis)

link: Dish Network

Hmmmm, then how come they been charging 30 green ones to get in some of these 'public venues'?

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Date: Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 18:02:17 (EDT)
From: Know It All
Email: None
To: Fly
Subject: Re: Get your wallets out
Message:
Fly: Maybe DLM/EV has some sort of separate licensing arrangement with Dish. If not, then it would seem that Dish might decide to revoke DLM/EV's right to use its network if DLM/EV is in violation of the network policy. Maybe someone wants to email Dish about it or look into this some more.

I have been busy researching the law of non-profit corporations. Fly, did you know that the main component of a non-profit is that it cannot be set up in order to benefit an individual person? Gee, I'd like to get the articles of incorporation and see how they explain the corporate mission. Do you think that DLM/EV is set up to benefit M and his family? It has always seemed that way to me.

Know It All

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Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 16:11:59 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Know It All
Subject: Family Business
Message:
Let's face it ; it's a family business which has been handed down. It's so obvious to see when you think of the ridiculous fiasco where ALL the family members were involved. It will be interesting to see this come to an end when hopefully all m's kids refuse to take the business over.

Liz

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Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 21:42:29 (EDT)
From: Grace
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: Re: Family Business
Message:
Liz,

I think Diya (sp?) is ready and waiting. M once gave a hint at a Long Beach event about the next master being he or she and then giving us that grin. I took it to mean she was next. The singing master...

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Date: Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 00:53:17 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Grace
Subject: Singing mistress
Message:
Hi Grace,

Shouldn't it be the singing mistress!

Liz

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Date: Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 18:29:32 (EDT)
From: Fly
Email: None
To: Know It All
Subject: Re: Get your wallets out
Message:
KIT,

You may be right, but hey, worth a snoop. Not my strength really, maybe someone could pick up the ball and run with this? BTW it will be under Visions International, not EV/DLM.

Yeah the not-for-profit thing is IMHO a blatant scam, but proving it is the kicker. Be interesting to see the gangster and his moll's tax returns. They're public domain, aren't they? I know a lot of people have been busted by the IRS because their apparant lifestyle was inconsistent with their declared income. Food for thought?

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Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 16:19:39 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Fly
Subject: U.S. Charity Commission
Message:
Has anyone reported Elan Vital to the Charity Commision for investigation? Someone should also do that in the U.K. When they mention m's flamboyant lifestyle it will probably get some attention.

Liz

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Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 23:29:16 (EDT)
From: Fly
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: Re: U.S. Charity Commission
Message:
Liz

That's really needs someone in Marianne or Jim's line of work, as one has to tread carefully when making any kind of allegation without the necessary proof.

However, the IRS does have an anonymous tip line, I believe....

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Date: Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 18:07:18 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Fly
Subject: Re: U.S. Charity Commission
Message:
Around the same time I did the corporate search on Elan Vital in California, I contacted the California Registry of Charitable Trusts, which is supposed to compile information on non-profits in the state and the information is supposed to be available to the public.

What was weird was that the Registry told me that Elan Vital informed them in 1989 that it was NO LONGER a charitable trust and that it didn't have to report anymore. Something is weird about this. Does the state know that Elan Vital is holding itself out as a religious/educational non-profit, but not reporting its tax returns etc. I would really like to see them. How much, for example, of its income goes to paying Maharaji's 'expenses' when he goes to one of those programs to which Elan Vital 'invites' him. Yes, there is this facade that Elan Vital sets up the programs and just 'invites' Maharaji to speak there, as if he didn't decide to do the program himself in the first place. Elan Vital then covers his 'expenses' which I would imagine include:

The rental of a private Jet, which is owned by another corporation owned by Maharaji or his family;

The fuel for the same jet;

Maharaji's food, lodging, clothes, and the cost of servants and imported cognac;

Helicopter transportation from 'residence' to airport;

Other 'miscellaneous' expenses. Of course, Maharaji isn't 'paid' for doing those programs by Elan Vital, oh, no, that would be illegal and Big M would have to pay income taxes on that income.

During my involvement with Maharaji's cult, financial shennanigans, especially funnelling money directly from DLM to Maharaji himself were SO common, that I can't imagine they don't still go on in some fashion or another. Oh, but I forgot, Maharaji got his millions and marble mansions from saavy 'business investments.' Yeah, right.
Just some random thoughts.

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Date: Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 00:56:41 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Fly
Subject: Re: U.S. Charity Commission
Message:
Dear Fly,

I didn't say allegation I said investigation. Nothing wrong with that. The more people that ask for elan Vital tobe investigated the better if you ask me.

I've certainly got the ball rolling.

Liz

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Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 16:52:10 (EDT)
From: Fred
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: Re: U.S. Charity Commission
Message:
Dear Liz & All,

I have just been to the Charity Commission website and looked up Elan Vital. It says:

OBJECTS: To advance the education in the understanding and realization of human potential through self knowledge based upon the teachings of Prem Pal Singh Rawat K/A Maharaji.

AREAS OF BENEFIT: Not Defined (!!!)

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Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 23:33:58 (EDT)
From: Fly
Email: None
To: Fred
Subject: Re: U.S. Charity Commission
Message:
Fred

I also saw EV defined as a 'church' for nonprofit registration purposes. Now I'm no expert, but doesn't one usually associate 'churches' with 'religion'?

And yet how many times has it been proclaimed by M. that 'this is not a religion'? So to whom is he lying, the IRS, the Feds or his followers?

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Date: Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 19:27:08 (EDT)
From: Know It All
Email: None
To: Fly
Subject: Snoop dogs
Message:
Fly: When the DEA and FBI can't make cases against drug dealers, they send the IRS after the suspects in order to show that their lifestyle cannot be supported by their reported income. It is a tried and true, and very typical way for the feds to make a case against someone.

Not my area of expertise either. Maybe someone else will pick up the ball and run with it.

I don't think M's tax returns are public. I think that returns of non-profits are though.

Know It All

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Date: Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 22:39:49 (EDT)
From: Fly
Email: None
To: Know It All
Subject: Re: Snoop dogs
Message:
I don't think M's tax returns are public. I think that returns of non-profits are though.

They most certainly are, and the law is being tightened up on that score. Below is some pertinent information on this subject and the source urls.

There has recently been significant expansion of the federal laws and regulations requiring tax-exempt organizations to provide public access to documents they submit to the IRS, including annual tax returns (Form 990 and its relatives) ......[snip]

In short, almost all tax-exempt organizations are now required to provide public access in a timely fashion to their most recent three years of federal tax returns and to their original Application for Recognition of Exemption. These must be complete, including From 990 Schedule A and all other accompanying materials submitted to the IRS, with the sole exception of those attachments that name individual donors. There are significant fines for noncompliance.

Generally speaking, people who visit one of the tax-exempt organization's offices and ask for these materials must be provided with the opportunity to view and copy them, and tax-exempt organizations must send copies of these materials by mail upon request. Minor fees for copying, postage and other processing may be assessed. An exception to these required access mechanisms is made if the organization makes the materials 'widely available,' which may be satisfied by publishing them on the Internet in a suitable format.

Nonprofit.org index

This quote source

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Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 00:55:57 (EDT)
From: Know It All
Email: None
To: Fly
Subject: Request for returns
Message:
Fly: Why this inspires me to possibly send a letter to DLM/EV and ask for the last 3 years returns with the list of donors.

Know It All

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Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 23:36:42 (EDT)
From: Fly
Email: None
To: Know It All
Subject: Re: Request for returns
Message:
KIA

Go for it, and be sure to publish them here, or work something out with Sir D., Jean Michel et al to host them.

Also be sure to file a complaint if they refuse or ignore your request!! BTW, they are actually not obliged to publish lists of individual donors.

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Date: Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 19:24:21 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Fly
Subject: Re: Get your wallets out
Message:
BTW it will be under Visions International, not EV/DLM.

Visions IS EV. Visions is merely a trade name for that very branch of EV.

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Date: Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 20:24:32 (EDT)
From: Fly
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: Get your wallets out
Message:
'Oh what a tangled web we weave
When first we practise to deceive!'

Sir Walter Scott
Marmion

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Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 16:15:58 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Fly
Subject: O what a tangled web...
Message:
I always attributed that wonderful saying to Shakespeare. Thanks Fly, for putting me right.

Love,

Liz

Some interesting post from you.

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Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 23:38:29 (EDT)
From: Fly
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: Re: O what a tangled web...
Message:
My pleasure, ma'am, and thank you.
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Date: Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 23:14:49 (EDT)
From: Fly
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Sidebar to JW
Message:
JW

Somewhere south of here you posted:

I sent those documents to JM. They are the result of a corporate search I did with the Secretary of State in California. 'Foreign Corporation' means that Divine Light Mission, which later had its name changed to Elan Vital, is 'foreign' to California. It is a Colorado corporation, so California designates it as 'foreign.' But DLM/EV has to report to the California Secretary of state is it does any business or has any operations in California. Since the headquarters is in good old Malibu, they obviously have to report.

So, it's definitely a US corporation, incorporated in Colorado.

However, today I found this record:

Nonprofit Locater Results

Because the address is a Post Office Box number, one cannot view a map locating this organization..

Fed_Employer_ID_Number: 237174539
Organization_Name: ELAN VITAL INC
Care of:
Address: PO BOX 6130
City: MALIBU
State: CA
Zip: 90264-6130
Group Exem: 0000
Subs. Code: 03
Affil. Code: 0
Class Code: 1
Ruling Date: 197112
Deduct. Code: 1
Foundation: 10 [church - is this a joke?]
Activity: 059001000
Organization Code: 1
Jurisdiction: 95 [california]
Advanced Ruling Expr: 0000
Tax Period:
Asset Code: 0
Income Code: 0
Filing Req.:
Blank:
Acct. Period:
Assets:
Income:
Negative:
NTEE Code:
Sort Name:

Source: Nonprofit Locator

A similar search under Colorado for both EV & DLM yielded no results.

Allowing for the fact that some sites may have incomplete records, there does seem to be some discrepancies here. Also, none of the numerous sites listing Nonprofit corporation public records have anything on EV beyond basic location and status info. So if you are interested in financial data, I guess you'll just have to request their last 3 year's Form 990s (see previous post).

Mind you, if you want complicated, a cursory search on the same site for Scientology revealed 38 records in CA alone! (BTW they are in the same category as EV - 'Church' Probably because the Feds don't have a category number for 'cults'!)

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Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 13:08:31 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Fly
Subject: Re: Sidebar to JW
Message:
Hi Fly:

I think the federal tax information, which I believe is what you found (and thank you, it's very interesting information) goes by the state the corporated offices are located in, in this case California. Although DLM, which later became Elan Vital, has it's corporate offices located in California, DLM/EV was still incorporated in Colorado. I did notice that the president is listed as being in Florida. All of this makes sense for a number of reasons:

1. The first US headquarters of DLM was Denver, so that makes sense that DLM was incorporated there.

2. In 1979 the headquarters of DLM was moved to Miami Beach, Florida. There were lots of programs in Florida after that, and Maharaji got a palacial 'residence' on Miami Beach, right on Biscayne Bay.

3. Sometime later, around the mid-80s, the Miami Beach corporate offices were closed down, the DLM name was changed to EV, and the headquarters moved to Malibu, Agoura, and/or other locations in the vicinity of Malibu in Southern California. Linda Gross, who is or was the President of Elan Vital, has an office in Santa Monica. So, it makes sense that Elan Vital has changed it's headquarters to California, but there isn't any indication that it reincorporated as a California corporation. The California Secretary of State still shows Elan Vital as the original Divine Light Mission, just with a name change, and that it is still a Colorado corporation.

Thanks again, Fly. The more information we get out in the open, the better. It is very interesting that Elan Vital appears to have employees and is listed as a religion.

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Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 23:45:46 (EDT)
From: Fly
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Re: Sidebar to JW
Message:
JW

May be worth running all this by your original contact at the CA Secretary of State office?

It all seems somewhat shrouded in a haze, for some reason.

By way of a benchmark, I plan to do similar searches on other nonprofit organizations, esp. religious/church types, just to see if this is a typical trait or whether it is something peculiar to EV. I'll let you know what I come up with, as always with reference links (that way the premies can't accuse me of hyping or inventing stuff)

All the info is out there, somewhere on the net, and I believe public domain information should be, well, public knowledge.

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Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 04:24:29 (EDT)
From: A Premie Jr.
Email: None
To: Fly
Subject: You just don't get it, do you?
Message:
All, I repeat all, the money that is sent to Maharaji is used to propagate his wonderful Knowledge that provides that beautiful experience inside, inside of even all of you.

His big beautiful house in Malibu is his castle with which he will rule the world from. His house has his office and other offices, recording and video studio, and all sorts of important rooms that are used to help write off his taxes because they are being used by his business.

And why should the Lord of the Universe pay taxes anyway? It all belongs to him anyway. He's the creator, the pervertor, and the destroyer. You should be mighty thankful that he allows you to breathe his air.

The cars, the airplanes, gliders, helicopters, residences through out the world are all used to spread his Knowledge. Even his expensive world's largest private collection of wristwatches is used to ensure that things happen on time. There is even a person whose sole service is to wind the watches and set them to Atomic Time from Boulder Colorado.

You people just cannot imagine what it takes to run a worldwide organization and how much hush money is needed to grease all the squeaky wheels. How much would it take to shut you all up? I'll send you some money right now.

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Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 23:57:10 (EDT)
From: Fly
Email: None
To: A Premie Jr.
Subject: Re: You just don't get it, do you?
Message:
How much would it take to shut you all up? I'll send you some money right now.

That was awesome, Junior!

But please, don't send me money directly, I don't want the IRS to think I am doing anything other than humanitarian volunteer work.

However, if you wish to support me in this task, I do have a Charitable Foundation set up to provide me with a suitable residence from which to conduct my operation. So please make your checks out to 'Neat Villa Inc' and hopefully they won't spot the anagram!

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Date: Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 14:09:43 (EDT)
From: kmdarling
Email: unlimited@aol.com
To: Fly
Subject: Neat Villa, Inc.
Message:
This anagram is too good to be allowed to slip away into the mist of archives. I nominate this and the previous post to Best of the Site.

Neat Villa, Inc.! It’s one of those catchy phrases that says it all.

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Date: Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 20:02:44 (EDT)
From: Fly
Email: None
To: kmdarling
Subject: Re: Neat Villa, Inc.
Message:
oh kmdarling, how sweet of you.

I hope my little frivolity didn't detract from what was supposed to be a constructive thread.

Actually you've inspired me to try coming up with some more - anyone want to join in?

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Date: Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 20:05:41 (EDT)
From: Fly
Email: None
To: Fly
Subject: Re: Neat Villa, Inc.
Message:
This is bound to raise the webmaster's eyebrow!!
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Date: Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 20:07:35 (EDT)
From: Fly
Email: None
To: Fly
Subject: Re: Neat Villa, Inc.
Message:
My new browser id, I mean
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Date: Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 14:32:44 (EDT)
From: Roger Slow 'n Lazy Drek
Email: None
To: kmdarling
Subject: Neat Villa, Inc. can be best, but...
Message:
Ok, I'm slow and dyslexic and can't figure out anagrams. What's the secret meaning?
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Date: Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 14:51:33 (EDT)
From: kmdarling
Email: unlimited@aol.com
To: Roger Slow 'n Lazy Drek
Subject: Re: Neat Villa, Inc. can be best, but...
Message:
elan vital
neat villa

get it?

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