Forum IV: The Ex-Premie Forum
Archive: 4
From: Mon, Sep 13, 1999 To: Fri, Sep 24, 1999 Page: 3 Of: 5


Roger E. Drek -:- New at Drek! Where Are They Now? -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 02:54:02 (EDT)
__ Jeff -:- Re: New at Drek! Where Are They Now? -:- Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 02:10:35 (EDT)
__ __ bb -:- Michael Bolton(bolotin) in concert premie story -:- Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 23:47:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jeff -:- Re: Michael Bolton(bolotin) in concert premie story -:- Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 00:46:54 (EDT)
__ __ Monmot -:- Re: New at Drek! Where Are They Now? -:- Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 12:30:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ Roger E. Drek -:- Michael Bolton - I don't think I even want to go there (nt) -:- Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 16:03:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ from his website -:- He's the honorary -:- Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 00:59:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ He also was with Paula Barbieri -:- the night she broke up with OJ -:- Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 01:11:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ link for that -:- Michael Bolton Bolotin -:- Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 01:13:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Roger E. Drek -:- I think I'll pass on show biz types... -:- Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 16:59:03 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Fly -:- Olivia Harrison -:- Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 23:54:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ bb -:- Re: Olivia Harrison -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 00:13:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ OH -:- Re: Olivia Harrison -:- Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 05:13:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger E. Drek -:- ***Best of Forum*** OH, that was so, so beautiful, that love, that feeing! -:- Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 16:01:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Re: Michael Bolton - I don't think I even want to go there (nt) -:- Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 16:24:39 (EDT)
__ Way -:- Charles Cameron -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 14:39:41 (EDT)
__ __ AJW -:- Re: Charles Cameron -:- Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 07:22:28 (EDT)
__ __ Shp -:- What really happened to Charles..? -:- Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 11:08:32 (EDT)
__ __ Liz -:- Re: Charles Cameron -:- Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 02:04:33 (EDT)
__ __ Roger E. Drek -:- Maybe it's me, but I can't hit the link -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 16:10:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ Way -:- Re: Maybe it's me, but I can't hit the link -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 16:39:02 (EDT)
__ __ Roger E. Drek -:- Thanks! Yes, showing where they are serves a purpose -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 14:53:14 (EDT)
__ __ __ JW -:- Re: Thanks! Yes, showing where they are serves a purpose -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 18:35:00 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ kmdarling -:- Re: About Charles -:- Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 20:20:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Re: About Charles -:- Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 21:44:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Charles story. -:- Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 07:46:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ O -:- Re: About Charles -:- Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 05:32:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Get A Grip, O -:- Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 15:22:03 (EDT)
__ __ __ Way -:- Michael Nouri -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 15:14:19 (EDT)
__ Shp taking a stretch -:- Question is: Where are you now? -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 11:32:11 (EDT)
__ __ AJW -:- Hi Sandy -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 15:23:35 (EDT)
__ __ Roger E. Drek -:- Shp, you are a boring, righteous little gadfly twerp... -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 14:35:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ Shp -:- Reply, for lack of a better word -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 17:50:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ Roger Change of Heart Drek -:- House of Drek - FOR SALE! -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 16:36:01 (EDT)
__ __ Marianne -:- These are facts & witnesses: Please contribute -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 12:48:30 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- Just how much of an asshole is Shp? -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 11:52:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ Shp -:- Loaded question - Guess with what? Jim's ego. -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 13:06:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Sandy, you misunderstand... -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 16:31:28 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Fred -:- Mahatma Jim... -:- Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 12:14:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Re: Mahatma Jim... -:- Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 12:21:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Re: Sandy, you miss wunderland... -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 18:31:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ barney -:- In the heart of darkness -:- Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 16:30:07 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Re: Sandy, you miss wunderland... -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 20:25:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Some things never go out of style -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 22:12:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ barney -:- Shp, how about THOU SHALL NOT LIE? (nt) -:- Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 16:34:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- lying is intentional / posts messed up -:- Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 01:34:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- it was no big deal... -:- Wed, Sep 22, 1999 at 11:22:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Some false ideas never go out of style -:- Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 11:03:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- reading time -:- Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 11:13:27 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Re: reading time -:- Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 11:30:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ nigel -:- I didn't write that last post. Please correct the header. -:- Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 22:09:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Re: Some things never go out of style -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 23:29:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Re: Some things never go out of style -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 23:54:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mr. Phelps -:- Mission Impossible for you, Shp -:- Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 16:44:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ barney -:- And like Jack Kennedy, I knew Jim Heller. -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 17:09:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Jim's no Jack Kennedy -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 18:03:48 (EDT)
__ shaquille/cobey -:- Re: New at Drek! Where Are They Now? -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 08:33:11 (EDT)
__ Roger E. Drek -:- Scanning the search engines -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 04:09:36 (EDT)
__ __ gregg -:- Re: Scanning the search engines -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 13:06:03 (EDT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Re: Scanning the search engines -:- Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 06:24:46 (EDT)
__ __ Roger Sonic Producer Drek -:- DevoMuse! Alternative premie music - X-Flies? -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 04:15:31 (EDT)
__ __ __ Roger E. Drek -:- Is the bell about to toll for www.premie.com? -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 05:09:12 (EDT)

LdM -:- A Good Read -:- Thurs, Sep 16, 1999 at 13:26:33 (EDT)
__ Liz -:- thought provoking -:- Thurs, Sep 16, 1999 at 15:35:11 (EDT)
__ __ Marianne -:- Re: thought provoking -:- Thurs, Sep 16, 1999 at 16:31:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ LdM -:- Re: thought provoking Friends -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 04:13:56 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Liz -:- Re: thought provoking Friends -:- Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 02:20:51 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Re: thought provoking Friends -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 13:15:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ Liz -:- Re: thought provoking -:- Thurs, Sep 16, 1999 at 17:16:48 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ bb -:- Re: thought provoking -:- Thurs, Sep 16, 1999 at 17:36:25 (EDT)

One timer. -:- Why do you bother? -:- Thurs, Sep 16, 1999 at 11:29:19 (EDT)
__ Sir Dave -:- My comment on One Timer's post -:- Thurs, Sep 16, 1999 at 19:58:57 (EDT)
__ nigel -:- And why did YOU bother? -:- Thurs, Sep 16, 1999 at 17:11:47 (EDT)
__ __ nigel -:- oops - HTML cock-up... -:- Thurs, Sep 16, 1999 at 17:24:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ Officer Roger O'Drek -:- Nigel, Nigel, Nigel - you CAN edit the post and fix it! -:- Thurs, Sep 16, 1999 at 17:42:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ nigel -:- Thanks officer... -:- Thurs, Sep 16, 1999 at 17:53:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Officer Drek -:- Re: Thanks officer... -:- Thurs, Sep 16, 1999 at 21:56:34 (EDT)
__ AJhic -:- Stumble hic -:- Thurs, Sep 16, 1999 at 15:21:22 (EDT)
__ __ Liz -:- Jagdeo whereabouts -:- Thurs, Sep 16, 1999 at 15:38:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Re: Jagdeo whereabouts -:- Thurs, Sep 16, 1999 at 15:55:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ barney -:- That poor old man Jagdeo -:- Thurs, Sep 16, 1999 at 16:01:19 (EDT)
__ An Investor -:- Re: Why do you bother? -:- Thurs, Sep 16, 1999 at 15:17:12 (EDT)
__ two timer -:- Re: Why do you bother? -:- Thurs, Sep 16, 1999 at 13:18:14 (EDT)
__ __ old timer -:- Re: Why do you bother? -:- Thurs, Sep 16, 1999 at 15:41:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ 2 timer -:- a do do do, a da da da, is all I want to say to you. -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 00:23:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ People's Poet. -:- Better than Arti 2 timer (nt) -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 16:51:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ nigel -:- Lying, timewasting premie. -:- Thurs, Sep 16, 1999 at 17:36:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ nigel -:- who, if he was in New Zealand... -:- Thurs, Sep 16, 1999 at 17:51:20 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ URL -:- Look who's lecturing us on honesty -:- Thurs, Sep 16, 1999 at 18:32:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- URL is in a cult -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 15:26:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ nigel -:- misanthrope? -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 08:58:03 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ barney -:- URL smells like Nil -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 14:57:56 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ nigel -:- definitely so... -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 17:45:56 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ URL -:- Yes misanthrope -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 12:35:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- Re: Yes misanthrope -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 16:08:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Would you URL, would you? -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 15:32:02 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ URL -:- Re: Would you URL, would you? -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 16:57:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ nigel -:- We'll take that as a 'yes' -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 18:56:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Pass the Dettol (nt) -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 17:22:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ nigel -:- Calm down, brother - you're getting hysterical -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 13:34:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ URL -:- Re: Calm down, brother - you're getting hysterical -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 15:11:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ nigel -:- Jeez, I give up... -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 17:54:16 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- URL the questioner. -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 15:34:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Me luv toes -:- Kissin' da holy toes -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 10:42:35 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Know It All -:- Foot fetish -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 14:49:02 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ barney -:- Interesting how URL has overblown Ben's 'lie' -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 15:07:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ URL -:- Re: Interesting how URL has overblown Ben's 'lie' -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 15:23:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ barney -:- That's it! BLOCK Ben Lurking now! -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 17:22:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- Re: Interesting how URL has overblown Ben's 'lie' -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 16:17:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ URL -:- Re: Interesting how URL has overblown Ben's 'lie' -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 17:03:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- Re: Interesting how URL has overblown Ben's 'lie' -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 19:09:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ nigel -:- An excellent point, Nil... The baseline IS VERY important. -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 18:13:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ URL -:- The real baseline... -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 18:53:16 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ nigel -:- Well done, Sir! - you've finally proved Maharaji is God. I resign... -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 21:11:51 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Like bad makeup on a crusty old whore -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 20:08:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ URL -:- Re: Like bad makeup on a crusty old whore -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 20:51:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- Re: Like bad makeup on a crusty old whore -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 22:17:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- Re: The real baseline... -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 20:01:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ nigel -:- Ask with the heart of a child... and... -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 19:16:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ URL -:- Re: Ask with the heart of a child... -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 19:21:59 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ nigel -:- My kids have hearts and they ask lots of questions,,, -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 21:35:04 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ URL -:- Re: My kids have hearts and they ask lots of questions,,, -:- Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 20:35:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ nigel -:- ...ask Jagdeo with the heart of a child? (nt) -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 20:39:34 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ FORUM POLICE AND JUSTICE TRIBUNAL -:- STOP! The trial of young Ben Lurking will be held at Anything Goes -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 17:38:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ THE HIGH TRIBUNAL -:- Re: STOP! The trial of young Ben Lurking will be held at Anything Goes -:- Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 06:21:42 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- Re: STOP! The trial of young Ben Lurking will be held at Anything Goes -:- Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 12:06:28 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- POLICE FAIL TO PROVIDE LINK BEN INNOCENT OF ALL CHARGES! -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 22:22:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- Re: STOP! The trial of young Ben Lurking will be held at Anything Goes -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 20:36:59 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Another Question. -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 15:38:07 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ URL -:- Re: Another Question. -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 17:46:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ nigel -:- Sad toe-kisser... -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 18:35:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ nigel -:- When did I lie? -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 04:22:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ barney -:- Isn't that nice, old timer? -:- Thurs, Sep 16, 1999 at 15:56:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ Liz -:- Re: Why do you bother? -:- Thurs, Sep 16, 1999 at 15:51:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ oldtimer -:- Re: Why do you bother? -:- Thurs, Sep 16, 1999 at 18:04:06 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ liz -:- wood from trees -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 01:03:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ URL -:- Re: wood from trees -:- Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 13:09:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- OH LIZZIE!!!!! -:- Thurs, Sep 16, 1999 at 16:26:09 (EDT)


Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 02:54:02 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: All
Subject: New at Drek! Where Are They Now?
Message:
I've just added a new section at Roger's House of Maharaji Drek called Famous Premies: Where Are They Now?

At this point in time, I have only three:

  • Joe Anctil
  • Michael Dettmers
  • Joan Apter

If you have information on Important/Famous Premies please let me know here at the Forum or email at drek@oz.net

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Date: Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 02:10:35 (EDT)
From: Jeff
Email: None
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: Re: New at Drek! Where Are They Now?
Message:
Dear Drek,

Glen told me that Micheal Bolton was a premie. I don't suppose there's a mention of M on his website. M is an embarrassment to many people. I can't even be bothered to look.

Jeff

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Date: Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 23:47:33 (EDT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Jeff
Subject: Michael Bolton(bolotin) in concert premie story
Message:
Glen is just a bit out of date.
Micheal Bolton had a concert in conn. His home state,
and a premie sister went to the concert and sat in the
6th row.
He was talking about all the people in the audience
like his 4th grade teacher and various people from
his life and said lets see, who am I forgetting?
and this premie sister stood up and yelled 'PREMIES!'
and Mike took it like an animal taking a bullet.
He reeled and went over to a speaker and didnt say
another word for the whole concert.
Just sang.

I though it was halarious when she told me.

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Date: Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 00:46:54 (EDT)
From: Jeff
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: Re: Michael Bolton(bolotin) in concert premie story
Message:
Why are people so embarrassed to mention they were taken in by the hype 7 Miragi? I can't imagine........

Jeff

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Date: Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 12:30:39 (EDT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Jeff
Subject: Re: New at Drek! Where Are They Now?
Message:
Michael Bolton used to sing at premie functions years ago in Hartford, CT. His name then was Michael Bolotin.
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Date: Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 16:03:01 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Michael Bolton - I don't think I even want to go there (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 00:59:53 (EDT)
From: from his website
Email: None
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: He's the honorary
Message:
He's the honorary
chairman of the National Committee
To Prevent Child Abuse and

If he is an ex maybe he would use this connection to find out where Jagdeo is and if he has been stopped?

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Date: Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 01:11:08 (EDT)
From: He also was with Paula Barbieri
Email: None
To: all
Subject: the night she broke up with OJ
Message:
the same night he killed Nicole. My these premies get around.
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Date: Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 01:13:47 (EDT)
From: link for that
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Michael Bolton Bolotin
Message:
http://forums.rockhall.com/forums/get/inductees29/1599/1.html
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Date: Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 16:59:03 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: I think I'll pass on show biz types...
Message:
Having been to Hollywood and having to suffer great humiliations on many casting couches, I think I'll let those who met with success with just a slap on the wrist.

I'm not sure that these people took advantage of premies in their climbing the mountain to success. The only thing they have done is to be another victim in Maharaji's cult.

However, for the folks who have profited from their association with Maharaji I hold them to a different standard. Same goes for his propaganda ministers like Joan Apter. Joe Anctil, who knows?

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Date: Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 23:54:45 (EDT)
From: Fly
Email: None
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: Olivia Harrison
Message:
you know, George's missus

but don't tell anyone, she don't want it spread around

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Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 00:13:32 (EDT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Fly
Subject: Re: Olivia Harrison
Message:
Olivia was g harrison's wife. Maybe still is.
M was asked at one point in the early eighties or verylate
seventies 'guru maharaj ji, do you think g harrison is
ready to know you and get knowledge? and he said,
'The question isn't is he ready for me, it's -am
I ready for g harrison?' He said it in a way that was
obvious to those around him that he meant was he ready
to endure g harrison and his trip. The people around him
laughed.

I guess he still isnt ready.

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Date: Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 05:13:47 (EDT)
From: OH
Email: None
To: Fly
Subject: Re: Olivia Harrison
Message:
What an obnoxious little bunch of shits! As if you knew a THING of what you're talking about. All wrong!!! From A to Z as far as we're concerned. Enjoy your tiny,little viewpoint while it lasts. Soooo far off the mark. You have no idea who you've missed in this whole equation. Peace and love to you anyway.....Try to take a deep breath for once and realize that you know FAR less than you think!! Enjoy your lives, people, or they're a total waste!!!

OH etc.

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Date: Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 16:01:44 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: OH
Subject: ***Best of Forum*** OH, that was so, so beautiful, that love, that feeing!
Message:
OH,

Thank you. That was really beautiful. I feel the LOVE coming through.

as far as we're concerned

Just for the records, of course, but do you represent more than just yourself here? Any particular organization?

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Date: Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 16:24:39 (EDT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: Re: Michael Bolton - I don't think I even want to go there (nt)
Message:
I don't think Michael would want you to either.
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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 14:39:41 (EDT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: Charles Cameron
Message:
Roger,

Thanks for your efforts.

Charles Cameron, the main author of 'Who is Guru Maharaj Ji?', has a website with photo and biography. He mentions his many publications but not the Maharaji book, for some reason. He mentions working personally with two spiritual teachers, Trungpa Rimpoche and Wallace Black Elk, but not Maharaji, for some reason. Do a search for Charles Cameron +Hesse +hipbone or see directly:
http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/ChasCBio.html.

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Date: Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 07:22:28 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Re: Charles Cameron
Message:
Hi Way,

I spent a bit of time with Charles in the 70s and 80s. He's an incredibly creative guy with a fresh perspective on things. I found his hipbone website a few months ago and sent him an email.

I received a reply, he seems busy and very well.

I didn't ask him about Maharaji and knowledge.

Anth the Hip Gnome

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Date: Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 11:08:32 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: What really happened to Charles..?
Message:
If you take into consideration that Charles really likes Hesse and the Glass Bead Game
I think it would be cricket to assume in omitting his past affiliation with Maharaji, he lost a few marbles!

Unless of course Charles is still working undercover....006, license to philosophize.

His other experiences with the Tibetan monks and the Native Americans sound very cool.

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Date: Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 02:04:33 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Re: Charles Cameron
Message:
Dear Way,

I sent charles an email already but he did not reply.

Love,

Liz (looks like he's embarassed to say he's/was a cult member!

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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 16:10:41 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Maybe it's me, but I can't hit the link
Message:
I'm coming up empty on the link http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/chasCBio.html. Wonder if they are already doing damage control.

Ok, just for that I'm expanding my Charles Cameron coverage. The dude is still selling that new age crap all over the web. It would appear that Persons Around Maharaji (PAM) who have no real life skill all end up in some kind of touchy-feely consulting business. But as Sir Dave would say, 'That's capitalism.' Well, I say, 'I'll sell them the rope with which...'

Check out Avatar 97 Speakers

Check out the Center for Millennial Studies, a think tank for all that crap. Sorry, guys, but I predict it will come and go like Hale-Bopp. Too bad that you'll all still be here, albeit a little richer.

Check out The Arlington Institute where they say this about another Cameron game:

TAI Gaming

Countdown to Y2K is the first game designed by The Arlington Institute (with initial input from The Center for Strategic and International Studies, and the Center for Millennial Studies at Boston University,) for people whose real life obligations require them to work together as a team.

Additionally, TAI thrives on the game design expertise of its Senior Analyst/Designer Charles Cameron, designer of the HipBone family of games and Editor at Large of The Cursor, a trade magazine for game developers.

Countdown to Y2K: A Game of Perceptions
Countdown to Y2K was created by The Arlington Institute to:

model the complexity of Y2K’s social impact at the city, county, or state level
provide a risk free environment for learning with emotional depth
teach flexibility in the face of multiple, unpredictable change
It accomplishes this by testing the impact of public perceptions related to Y2K in a hypothetical U.S. city during July to December 1999, and points in the direction of anticipatory policies city and state governments could undertake immediately to prepare for such scenarios. The scenario introduces issues such as bank withdrawals, the activities of religious and millennial groups, perception-driven events on Wall Street, and anticipatory business decisions--things that happen in advance of any actual Y2K-related disruptions.

Twenty to forty game participants are divided into five ,groups: Citizens (from factory workers to retailers,) City Council (including a Mayor,) Business, Government & Utilities and Emergency Services. The Game Control Group poses as the Media to insert strategic game 'moves' or incidents in the scenario via press announcements. A few select players are secretly assigned personal beliefs and psychologies to add complexity to the scenario. The game is played over six hours.

Enthusiasm for the game is building. David Gershon, Chairman of Global Action Plan participated in our game at CSIS in January. 'Your Y2K simulation game was impeccably conceived and executed,' he said. 'It is a true resource for anyone who wishes to envision how pre-Y2K events might impact a community. I highly recommend it.' California State Senator John Vasconcellos has a keen interest in getting the game book 'into the hands of every Mayor in the state of California.'

Any organization is free to copy and distribute the game, provided they credit The Arlington Institute as the game creator. And while we make the game available to anyone without charge, it is more effectively conducted by trained Game Masters.

Dang, sounded like it was going to be free, but for best results, as usual, you need a Master.

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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 16:39:02 (EDT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: Re: Maybe it's me, but I can't hit the link
Message:
So sorry, it's capital C for chas
I will correct my post.
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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 14:53:14 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Thanks! Yes, showing where they are serves a purpose
Message:
Thanks, Way. I just added Charles, the former propaganda minister.

It is very interesting that Charles Cameron does not mention that one of his spiritual teachers was Maharaji. Does that mean that he has disavowed Maharaji or is Mr. Cameron concerned with a negative impact to his bottom line.

Again, these are public figures who at one time profited from their in the lime light association with Maharaji. It is of significant importance to see where they are at in terms of do they still follow Maharaji, are they still operating under Maharaji's umbrella pyramid corporate scheme.

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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 18:35:00 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: Re: Thanks! Yes, showing where they are serves a purpose
Message:
Yeah, I noticed that Charles Cameron spends an entire paragraph mentioning meeting Rimpoche, but he doesn't mention one word about Guru Maharaji, whom he followed for years, and wrote that awful, awful book about. I guess that's the reason he doesn't mention it: embarrassment.

I also note that Joan Apter mentions in her resume that she was some kind of an educational training instructor for Elan Vital. She doesn't mention Maharaji either, and to call what he did as an initiator for DLM as 'training' and that EV is an 'educational' organization, is misleading in the extreme. Again, I think the failure to mention this is just plain embarrassment, except in front of the right audience, Joan and others will profess that Maharaji is 'everything' to them. I guess that doesn't extend to the business world, resumes, etc. I doubt Joan would like her clients to know about all the neurotic and self-hating stuff she said in satsang over the years. No, I don't think that would go over too well in a business which is some form of new-age business consulting.

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Date: Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 20:20:26 (EDT)
From: kmdarling
Email: unlimited@aol.com
To: JW
Subject: Re: About Charles
Message:
I lived in a shram with CC in Denver right as he was leaving in 1976. So I can say that it’s hardly fair to say that he “profited” from being a bigshot. I remember him saying in some meeting before he left “I want to know what were the exit lines of (some premies who had already left).” He meant that he really wanted to know, that he was sorry he hadn’t listened to them. I can well believe he had more significant experiences with later teachers.

There’s an interesting parallel with Andrew Harvey, who wrote a book about Mother Meera that got lots of people into her. However, when he decided she was a mean phoney, he wrote many other books against her. Not that there’s anything wrong with Charles not doing that. Let him have his life––he’s not a zombie premie any more. Although I wouldn’t be surprised if he enjoyed contributing to this page. He’s a cool guy, as I remember.

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Date: Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 21:44:44 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: kmdarling
Subject: Re: About Charles
Message:
Regarding Cameron, I never suggested he 'profited' from his involvement in DLM. To the contrary, I'm sure it cost him quite a lot, just like it did many of the rest of us. Yeah, many people left in 1976, but many of those came back...Didn't Charles? And then, of course, Maharaji began a super-devotional period in 1977 and made everyone feel guilty for thinking for themselves, to the extent they did, in 1976. The cult became super cult-like and Maharaji presented himself as god even more blatantly than he had before -- many people were pressued to move into the ashram during that period as well. If Charles missed that period, he is indeed fortunate.

No, the fact that Charles' resume is devoid of any mention of Maharaji indicates he doesn't think much of Maharaji. But then on the other hand, Charles was instrumental in getting people to join Maharaji's cult. He wrote that book that was used for propogation, and I recall he narrated M's satsangs that were translated from Hindi. He used his creative talents to encourage people into the cult. Because of that, I think he has an obligation to speak out about Maharaji and his cult. I wish he were doing that instead of just pretending like it never happened and he was never involved.

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Date: Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 07:46:41 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Charles story.
Message:
Hi JW,

In the early 70s, Maharaji used to give satsang mentioning 'John', Christ's disciple who wrote the 'Gospel' that starts 'In the beginning was the Word etc'.

Of course, the John who wrote the gospel, was not the John who was the disciple. Charles delicately pointed this out to Maharaji, who thought for a moment and then said something along the lines of, 'Go through all the transcripts of my satsangs and remove all evidence of this mistake.'

Anth the Bigmouth

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Date: Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 05:32:43 (EDT)
From: O
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Re: About Charles
Message:
Who the fuck are you!!! To pass judgement on anyone else?? JW...some premie from the far, distant past who has some unresolved ashram/DLM fixation??...You have NO idea about Charles or anyone else!! What about minding your own, bloody business for one momennt!! Things have transpired in this world without you having had ANYTHING whatsoever to do with them and you write as if you were some sort of seer!!! How absurd!! You have no business passing comments on anyone else. What the hell have you achieved that deserves more than a microscopic footnote!! Whether it's Wallace Black Elk or Maharaji you obviously don't have the perspective to recognize a small shrub, let alone a great master teacher.

So shut the hell up!! And try to learn something while you have the gift of life, you whining, ungrateful bastard!!!

O

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Date: Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 15:22:03 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: O
Subject: Get A Grip, O
Message:
My, aren't we agitated, O, I mean Nil. Why don't you try meditation, honey. Some say it might calm you down so you might be capable of an intelligent, rational dicussion with another human being.

And sorry, honey, this IS my business. And as for Charles, don't you think it's just a little weird that he has expunged Maharaji from his history? This would not indicate to me that he thinks too much of Maharaji, or his cult. What do you think, I mean can you conjure up a coherent thought on this? By the way O, my Mom used to say that swearing and calling names is the last resort of the ignorant.

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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 15:14:19 (EDT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: Michael Nouri
Message:
Michael Nouri was never a 'higher-up' in Maharaji's organization. He is famous on his own, so to speak, as an actor. His star is not rising and he has been doing small theatre parts. I believe that he still practices Knowledge, but I personally do not know. His bio as part of the theatre cast of Victor/Victoria makes no mention of Elan Vital, but it is very interesting that it does mention that Michael belongs to an organization called 'Seeds of Peace' which is dedicated to world peace through the healing of prejudice among the children of war-torn nations. Michael is evidently sincere in wanting to promote world peace and was probably attracted to Rawat partially for that reason, no doubt now disappointed on that count. There may be a website about Michael Nouri in which Maharaji is mentioned, but I sort of doubt it. The Victor/Victoria site has a good photo, but there is probably some better source.
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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 11:32:11 (EDT)
From: Shp taking a stretch
Email: None
To: Roger Torpedo Drek
Subject: Question is: Where are you now?
Message:
Roger 'Torpedo' Drek,

First of all, you flatter yourself and exaggerate I am sure by the above nickname you gave yourself the last time we posted. You did not 'torpedo' me off this site. I left on my own, just as I am posting now. It is not a lie to change one's mind and change course.

So where are YOU at? You criticize me for coming here, since I am not an avowed 'ex-premie'.
Yet you yourself are fixated and obsessed with taking everything you can find about Maharaji (who you have renounced) and perverting it for your own pleasure, whether your perversions are accurate or not.

Your mission would be much better served if you made you points about the things you find wrong,
back them up with facts and witnesses, and be coming from that place. You cheapen yourself and the legitimate problems that people like gmom have had to live with for years by your adolescent behavior. No offense to any solid adolescents out there who are trying to work out their shit.
Antics like yours have made it harder to cut through the differences and get some closure.

You fancy yourself some sort of new age 'merry prankster', but you are an amateur., a hack, a big fish in a very small pond. All the same, you have a talent. You may amount to something someday when you grow up and learn how to use it.

Shpassing thru

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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 15:23:35 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Shp taking a stretch
Subject: Hi Sandy
Message:
Hi Sandy,

As Roger Drek is the first person to publish my work online, I am obliged to defend your criticism.

If anyone who wasn't a premie and knew nothing about the cult that we've both been involved with for a long time, and they looked at Roger's site, they would have a very different perspective from you and me.

Imagine if Roger had been following a false Guru, say, Rajneesh, or on of those wierdo nutter gurus, and he'd got out of what was obviously a damaging cult, and created his website to help people who were recovering from 'Brother David' and his cult, or whatever, then you might look at what he's done from a different perspective. But because his website is about a cult that you've become involved in, and are still agonising about, then your perspective is different. You're not sure about it. Is Maharaji real or not? Is knowledge real or not? Have you got your vocabulary mixed up a bit (knowledge=god=Maharaji etc).

So Sandy, what I'm saying is, you're seeing people like Roger and Jim through painted glasses.

Take them off and come back to Human Race

Anth the Penpal

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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 14:35:36 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: Shp taking a stretch
Subject: Shp, you are a boring, righteous little gadfly twerp...
Message:
And I HATE people like you. Make no mistake about it. It's such a pathetic show. Honestly, have you nothing better to do?

YOU think you are some kind of new age messiah here to set us all straight. You revel in the martyrdom that you create for yourself.

You pick up on these little issues and beat them to death with your righteous indignation. Shall we pick up on the unrighteous livelihood of the defense attorney again?

If all mankind was to conform to your ideals would we have a perfect world of peace and harmony? Or would we all be as lame as you?

Shp, you're a turd. Not even a big one, but a small one.

These people are public figures and anyone has every right to link to their public page on the Internet. Right or wrong, people with inquiring minds want to know about these people. Maybe Joe Anctil is a nice guy. The other two I don't think so. I wish I could find your webpage. Maybe I'll look for it. Of course, unless you told me where it is, I'd have to guess and I could be wrong.

Shp, if growing up means ending up like you I think I'll skip it.

Now, the rebuttals:

Roger 'Torpedo' Drek,

First of all, you flatter yourself and exaggerate I am sure by the above nickname you gave yourself the last time we posted.

Ah, how you flatter yourself. The torpedo reference was not as you have imagined. You must be getting paranoid. Interesting how you carry every little tidbit around in your head.

It is not a lie to change one's mind and change course.

You are correct to a degree in certain cases. However, it says that you are flaky.

legitimate problems that people like gmom

Oh, boy! That's a real smokescreen and an effort to sway public opinion to your side. You're weak, little man, lame and weak.

The Jagdeo issue is only one of many coming from Maharaji's cult. Damn, you really like to position yourself as the one to right all wrongs, don't you?

Finally, you say: You criticize me for coming here, since I am not an avowed 'ex-premie'.
Yet you yourself are fixated and obsessed with taking everything you can find about Maharaji (who you have renounced) and perverting it for your own pleasure, whether your perversions are accurate or not.

I do not care one iota whether you are an ex-premie or not. I care that about reading coherent, intelligent, and rational words which you are incapable of. I care that I am dealing with people who are honest with others.

You, my friend, are a snake in the grass. Time and time again, you have shown that you have a hidden agenda to satsang us with your spiritual new age crap and your support for Maharaji. You are a righteous posturing little twerp.

Yes, I am obsessed with Maharaji. I am a man with a mission. I want to bring that fat rich boy down for misleading so many, many people including myself. Maharaji has accumulated millions and millions of dollars at the expense of unsuspecting premies. He has ruined lives as innocent well intentioned young people tried to incorporate his ridiculous chameleon-like philosophy in their lives, often wasting the most productive years of their life. Suicides, sexual abuse, spiritual abuse, you name it HE is responsible for it all as he jets from continent to continent in his G4 to cavort with his mistresses and drink fine brandy while dressed in his Armani suits. Meanwhile, premies flocked to plasma centers to exchange their blood for money.

Your Guru, your Master, your Lord of the Universe stinks! And so do you, you little twerp!

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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 17:50:33 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: Reply, for lack of a better word
Message:
I am not going to go point by point with each insult.
That would be too much like work.
If there is no trust, there's no possibility of communication.
You don't trust any premies unless they declare they are on the way out.
I was f*cked before I started, not being so inlcined as yet,
and outspoken to boot. Bad combo around here. I got that .

And yet I have made some very good contacts here with some people
who can cut through all the differences and just talk to another person
confident enough in themselves that they had no need to lash out
to defend themselves. If there is an enemy, I am not he. But I make
a pretty good substitute, eh? There is a veil between us that makes us
unclear to each other. I would like to pierce that veil, but every time I
feel like I am coming close, somebody around here gets personal and
screws up the energy. You guys are like back door surgeons with rusty knives.
That, my brothers, will not be on him. It will be on you.

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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 16:36:01 (EDT)
From: Roger Change of Heart Drek
Email: None
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: House of Drek - FOR SALE!
Message:
I have had a change of heart. I had the sudden urge to pick up the Bible and look for a soothing passage. Opening the good book up to Luke Skywalker, the 2 Live Crew chapter verse 3, I read the following: me so horny, me so horny.

Having an immediate change of heart I want to be more Christ-like and help people rather than hurt them. Therefore, Roger's House of Maharaji Drek is FOR SALE with an asking price of only $495,236.95.

The House of Drek can be yours from now until forever. You can do with it as you like. You can remove and burn all the current content and make it your Maharaji Love Fest page if you wish. Or you could do a Sir David and just cut it loose until it falls out of orbit and into the atmosphere to burn up like a Russian rocket booster.

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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 12:48:30 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Shp taking a stretch
Subject: These are facts & witnesses: Please contribute
Message:
Shp: These lists are all very helpful in developing facts and witnesses.

I urge anyone with any information on individuals with high level affiliations within DLM/EV to add to this list.

Marianne

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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 11:52:18 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Shp taking a stretch
Subject: Just how much of an asshole is Shp?
Message:
Your mission would be much better served if you made you points about the things you find wrong,
back them up with facts and witnesses, and be coming from that place. You cheapen yourself and the legitimate problems that people like gmom have had to live with for years by your adolescent behavior.

Oh Shp,

You're telling Barney what kind of personality to affect? Interesting? Like if he just wrings his hands with the right touch of false, new age sincerity -- like you, for example -- he might 'amount to something someday'? Is that how it goes?

You're a major asshole, Shp. You are all pretense and no action, bud. You want facts? Demand them of your guru! But you won't do that because you're a silly, backbone-less new age ninnie. Nothing was more pathetic than your vain (in both senses of the word), quixotic 'campaign' against whatever that internet company you protested hosted or owned a porn site. As if that's a big deal to begin with. But, beside that, what'd you do that made you feel so stupidly self-important? You wrote a few letters?

Try getting down with your own ugly cult leader, Shp. Let's see your follow-up with him.

People like you .... grrrrr

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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 13:06:10 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Loaded question - Guess with what? Jim's ego.
Message:
Your mission would be much better served if you made you points about the things you find wrong,
back them up with facts and witnesses, and be coming from that place. You cheapen yourself and the legitimate problems that people like gmom have had to live with for years by your adolescent behavior.

Oh Shp,

You're telling Barney what kind of personality to affect? Interesting? Like if he just wrings his hands with the right touch of false, new age sincerity -- like you, for example -- he might 'amount to something someday'? Is that how it goes?

Shp sez: I don't suggest hand-wringing, or false new age sincerity. Maybe if he uses alot of foul language and runs roughshod over whoever disagrees with him, he will grow up to be like you.
That would be better, eh? So Barney is Roger, I never put that togehter before. Thanks.

You're a major asshole, Shp. You are all pretense and no action, bud. You want facts? Demand them of your guru! But you won't do that because you're a silly, backbone-less new age ninnie.

Shp sez: You have no idea of what I have done or not done. I don't have to answer to you, check in with you or in any way let you know anything I am doing about Maharaji or anything else in my life. If I am a major asshole, then you are a five star general asshole. At least we are out here dealing or trying to deal with it....the real problem is all the private assholes.

Nothing was more pathetic than your vain (in both senses of the word), quixotic 'campaign' against whatever that internet company you protested hosted or owned a porn site. As if that's a big deal to begin with. But, beside that, what'd you do that made you feel so stupidly self-important? You wrote a few letters?

Shp sez: Once again, you have no idea and have no right to know all of my private activities. If you are waiting for me to make an alter call at your feet, don't hold your breath. As for pathetic.....naw, I'm not going to buy into this mudslinging. say whatever you wish. Bark like a dog.

Try getting down with your own ugly cult leader, Shp. Let's see your follow-up with him.

Shp sez: Please refer to the last response.

People like you .... grrrrr

Shp sez: There you go with your dog noises again. Whatever I do or don't do, you will be the last to know, if I have anything to say about it. Other exers might, but not you. Your hatred and meanness go way beyond Maharaji. You bring much baggage of your own to this place and to unsuspecting people on both sides of the primary issue. God help and protect anyone who crosses your path, regardless of belief.

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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 16:31:28 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Sandy, you misunderstand...
Message:
...Jim's really soft and cuddly with a disarming smile, and he loves kittens and puppies and little babies and his mum and he give to charities and tries to be fair at all times and helps blind people across the road, and fights fascism wherever it rears its ugly head, and is into the environment and love and peace and everything.

(aren't you Jim?)

Anth the Private Perspective

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Date: Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 12:14:45 (EDT)
From: Fred
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Mahatma Jim...
Message:
Someone actually did tell me a story about the kindness of Jim Heller the other day. She said back in the 1970's when pams & premies were try to take her for every penny she had, Jim was the odd ball and seemed to really care about her.

This is a true story.

Peace and Love brother Jim,

Fred

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Date: Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 12:21:30 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: heller@bc1.com
To: Fred
Subject: Re: Mahatma Jim...
Message:
Thanks, Fred and Wohielo to you too. Hey, care to email me? I wonder who you are and who you know that I do.
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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 18:31:39 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Sandy, you miss wunderland...
Message:
Hi Anth,
I am in good spirits and have good will for everybody who has room for it.
As ever,
Shp the sometimes verbose, but always comin' from the heart
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Date: Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 16:30:07 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: In the heart of darkness
Message:
I'm sure that I'll be repeating something posted earlier on this topic of the heart as I notice Jerry does an excellent job.

Shp, you say this crap with an air of superiority that you and maybe only you are coming from the heart. What a total bullshit concept like we can split ourselves off and come from somewhere else. Sorry, don't buy it. Seems to me that we are most likely coming from someplace based on the influences of heredity and environment.

But, no, you gotta be different and better than everyone else, don't ya?

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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 20:25:41 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Re: Sandy, you miss wunderland...
Message:
Shp the sometimes verbose, but always comin' from the heart

Let's say this is true. I often pick up good vibes from you myself (Oh boy, am I gonna get it for saying that!). But let's say that you come from a soft spot in your innards, okay? Why all the spiritual and biblical association with it?

I'm pretty sure you're aware of all the evidence that consciousness, and all the phenomena in it, is biochemical in nature, including our 'hearts' and what we feel in them. Doesn't that bring into question whether or not ancient beliefs account for human experience properly?

This is one of my main beefs with you. You speak with way too much certainty on the authority of scriptures and the prophets they praise. It seems beyond you to consider that they got it all wrong.

You live in ancient times and by a creed that has outlived it's usefulness to modern man. It just doesn't work anymore, not for people who are educated, which I believe you are. That makes you untrustworthy. In spite of all the evidence, which you are aware of, and is contrary to your beliefs, you hold fast to, and preach them. Are you being honest in doing this? I say no.

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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 22:12:41 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Some things never go out of style
Message:
Shp the sometimes verbose, but always comin' from the heart

Let's say this is true. I often pick up good vibes from you myself (Oh boy, am I gonna get it for saying that!).

Shp sez: Who are you going to 'get it' from? Can I have some too? I want mine chocolate!

But let's say that you come from a soft spot in your innards, okay? Why all the spiritual and biblical association with it?

Shp sez: I believe that scriptures, however f*cked up by all the translations, is the record the relationship of humankind and the Creator on the planet, and it is still going on.

I'm pretty sure you're aware of all the evidence that consciousness, and all the phenomena in it, is biochemical in nature, including our 'hearts' and what we feel in them. Doesn't that bring into question whether or not ancient beliefs account for human experience properly?

Shp sez: If there is all this biochemistry going on, then there must be a biochemist around, eh?

This is one of my main beefs with you. You speak with way too much certainty on the authority of scriptures and the prophets they praise. It seems beyond you to consider that they got it all wrong.

Shp sez: I believe that there are timeless laws of conduct in the scriptures of how people can relate peaceably with each other and enjoy life on earth as it was intended. Just because a majority of people on the planet can't follow a few simple directions doens't mean the directions suck or are outdated.

You live in ancient times and by a creed that has outlived it's usefulness to modern man. It just doesn't work anymore, not for people who are educated, which I believe you are. That makes you untrustworthy. In spite of all the evidence, which you are aware of, and is contrary to your beliefs, you hold fast to, and preach them. Are you being honest in doing this? I say no.

Shp sez: You are too modern for me. I still believe in treating others the way I want to be treated and loving my neighbor as myself, and that the son of man will come form the east even to the west and come as a little child...call me crazy, it's in my blood. Prove me wrong, go for it. No theory, proof.

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Date: Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 16:34:53 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Shp, how about THOU SHALL NOT LIE? (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 01:34:37 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: lying is intentional / posts messed up
Message:
Barney,

First, in reply to the lying thing, it is one thing to purposely bear false witness, to deliberately lie, to give false information for personal gain of some sort - and to alter, edit, or add to someting said after after the fact and some further thought, and to correct someting for the sake of truth. it's all in the intent, the motive. If the motive is not to mislead from the beginning, it is not a lie. It is just bad information.

Second, when I got home tonight and checked the threads here, it was weird and a little out of sync, I don't know how exactly, but it seemed different. and Nigel said something about a post that he had nothing to do with. What's up?

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Date: Wed, Sep 22, 1999 at 11:22:45 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Shp
Subject: it was no big deal...
Message:
Nigel said something about a post that he had nothing to do with. What's up?

Somebody, (I thought it was you from the context of the thread) accidentally typed 'Nigel' in the 'from' field. The post was titled something like 'reading time' and was about Darwin.

Since the views were so at odds with my own, I didn't want anybody to read it too quickly and think it was from me. Since retrospective editing is possible, I was hoping they would put it right. That's all.

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Date: Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 11:03:30 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Shp
Subject: Some false ideas never go out of style
Message:
Shp sez: If there is all this biochemistry going on, then there must be a biochemist around, eh?

Sandy, you're restating the 'argument from design' - rendered unnecessary over a hundred years ago by Darwin. May I recommend Richard Dawkins' 'The Blind Watchmaker'? I think you'll enjoy it - even if it shatters a few preconceptions.

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Date: Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 11:13:27 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: reading time
Message:
I will check out that book.

My tactile experience of the presence of my Creator is not derived from a book, cultural age or school of thought.

I guess you just had to (have to) be there, as the saying goes.

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Date: Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 11:30:43 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Re: reading time
Message:
'Sandy, you're restating the 'argument from design' - rendered unnecessary over a hundred years ago by Darwin.' -Nigel

Nigel,

I don't believe that Darwin is the last word on evolution. He made a big contribution, but he's jut another (big) brick in the wall. There will always be more to learn and discover. You say that the argument from design was 'rendered unnecessary'....another less arrogant, more honest and observational way Darwin could have said the same thing is: 'We have not discovered the relationship interface with a Creator in our studies and must search deeper.'

My teenager renders me unnecessary sometimes when he doesn't remember where he came from.
I hear its common among adolescents, to rebel against and even deny ever needing parents.
I went thorugh that. Did you?
Ever hear of the 'as above, so below' theory?
Darwin the inquisitve, bearded and very bright teenage mind with a propensity for the subject of evolution

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Date: Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 22:09:40 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: I didn't write that last post. Please correct the header.
Message:
I don't have a clue what you're trying to say here, Sandy. 'We have not discovered the relationship interface with a Creator in our studies and must search deeper.' presumes there is such thing as (a) a Creator, and (b) a 'relationship interface'. Why try to explain either until you have good evidence for their existence - aside, of course, from Biblical evidence - or even a need to postulate their existence, when the evidence for natural selection is overwhelming?

I suggest you quit waffling and read the book. Or try 'On the Origin of Species' or 'The Descent of Man'. As relevant as when they were first written. (By all means criticice Darwin after reading him - and then explain where he went wrong. But at least give the guy as much of a chance as you would, say, Jesus ...) Did Jesus or Buddha understand evolution and the 'relationship interface'? If so, why didn't they tell us about it?

(And of course the argument from design is unnecessary... And how do you recommend we 'search deeper'?)

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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 23:29:38 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Re: Some things never go out of style
Message:
Sandy,

I'm not saying that the scriptures are wrong about right living and so forth. What I'm saying is, in the face of modern science it doesn't look good for the existence of God.

You say if there's biochemistry, there must be a biochemist. That's awfully simplistic and didn't require much thought or understanding on your part to make such a statement. What do you know about the laws of conservation? Ever hear of perpetual motion machines and how their existence is impossible? Nothing can put out energy forever. Sooner or later everybody and everything runs out of it. That includes your biochemist, who only exists in your mind anyway.

...the son of man will come form the east even to the west and come as a little child...call me crazy, it's in my blood. Prove me wrong, go for it. No theory, proof.

You can't possibly know if this is ever going to happen. It's just that you need to believe it, so you do. I once believed this too and lived for the day when it would come to pass. There's still a part of me that would like this to be true. How beautiful that would be, eh? That God our loving father will send his son to 'dry every tear' and take us back to our true home where we'll never have to shed another? Yes, that is a beautiful dream. Unfortunately, I think that's all it is. I want truth more than I want dreams, so I don't place much stock in this one as I once did. It's still a beautiful dream though. I can understand why you hold onto it as tightly as you do.

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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 23:54:05 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: Some things never go out of style
Message:
Our culture has become so desensitized to reality by the media that we have these outrageous expectations of how life is going to work out. At the same time I hold and cherish my vision of the future, I remain firmly on earth and take care of my family, deal with the same everyday shit that you do, pay taxes, deal with crazy drivers, etc.

I am not hanging onto my vision of a bright future as stated above because I have to, or I'll flip out if I let go of it or wishful thinking....I really do beleive it's going to happen more or less like it is foretold.
Hell, I don't even know if I will be alive to see it or enjoy it. That is not the issue.

Native Americans, all prophets of all faiths, early Christians, Incas, Aztecs, Anaskazis, native peoples all over the world, Druids, Cayce, Nosatrodamus - all of them are pointing to a time when there would be very big changes on the planet and the resulting outcome would be the foundation of a Golden Age on Earth, the Kingdom of Heaven right here in the physical, everything in a higher and finer vibration. I feel that is coming, just exactly how I don't know. What I do feel is the whole thing happening to me on a microcosmic level in my own life, my own personal Arageddom, etc and my coming out the other end in heaven inside. I chose early enrollment to avoid the inevitable rush.
I hate pushy crowds, don't you?

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Date: Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 16:44:37 (EDT)
From: Mr. Phelps
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Mission Impossible for you, Shp
Message:
Yes, I await the cosmic change too.

Your mission, if you choose to accept it, is to wait quietly and observe the coming of this change. When the cosmic change has fully manifested itself please make the appropriate announcement. Until then just shut the f*** up!

This message will self-destruct in 15 seconds (wish I could say the same for some jerks around here.)

No, I'm not Gerry.

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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 17:09:13 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: And like Jack Kennedy, I knew Jim Heller.
Message:
Yes, I have met Jim Heller when I was in Tacoma for my training seminar.

Jim is a nice guy. Very concerned about people. So concerned that he talked to me for nearly twenty minutes on the problems Shp was having and that maybe we should back off and even went so far to suggest that we send Shp some money to help with the operation for little Timothy, Shp's only son.

One scene with Jim I'll never forget was while walking down a crowded and busy sidewalk there were some ants struggling to get a carcass of a beetle to their ant hill. Jim quickly remembering his days as a little junior school crossing guard went into action and halted all pedestrian traffic for 10 minutes until the ants had finished their job.

I'd go on, but I'm in tears now. Maybe you don't know it, but Jim is blind and has only one arm and no legs. He's too proud to use a modern convenience like a wheelchair and instead drags himself along on the dirty glass strewn ground. And like I said he's blind. Man, he hurts for us. He suffers for us. And yet, he's so kind and friendly down there on the ground that you swear and promise to name your next kid after Jim.

You just think about that before you ever say anything bad about Jim, you inconsiderate bully!

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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 18:03:48 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: Jim's no Jack Kennedy
Message:
Shit, guys, I had no idea....
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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 08:33:11 (EDT)
From: shaquille/cobey
Email: none
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: Re: New at Drek! Where Are They Now?
Message:
and I think you have a team.
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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 04:09:36 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: Scanning the search engines
Message:
I'm working the old search engines.

Boss Hog Maharaji continues his spamming of Alta Vista (AV). There were some 6000 hits on Maharaji on AV. Maharaji continues to register his domains in many different countries and he continues to spam the engines with every page he has to get try to make us disappear. Fortunately, WE do appear on the first page of AV hits.

Maharaji has all his domains up there which include Maharaji.org, Visions, Appreciation, and Elan Vital. Every product sold out of Visions is found by AV and every crappy poem he has penned that appears on Maharaji.org is also found by AV.

I also checked my reliable favorite, HotBot. One of Sir David's Link pages appears as Number 1. Excellent work, Sir D. If only you had done as well with Anything Goes as it spins out of control headed for Rigel 7.

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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 13:06:03 (EDT)
From: gregg
Email: None
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: Re: Scanning the search engines
Message:
I tried one of my favorites, Google, and the top ten hits were all about some OTHER shri maharaj ji, guru of gurus, Indian wonderworker, etc.
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Date: Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 06:24:46 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: gregg
Subject: Re: Scanning the search engines
Message:

I'm also doing well on AOL NetFind. One of my favourite search utilities is Web Ferret. This free program searches all the search engines on the net and comes up with stuff you wouldn't normally get.

It's very convenient because it lists all the URLs in a list which you can save for use later. Also, while it is searching the web for new URLs, you can look at any of the sites it brings up and it still carries on searching in the background, adding more URLs to its list.

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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 04:15:31 (EDT)
From: Roger Sonic Producer Drek
Email: None
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: DevoMuse! Alternative premie music - X-Flies?
Message:
I've added DevoMuse to the Weak Links at Roger's House of Maharaji Drek. Because I'm so excited about this new find I feel the need to tell everyone about it right now.

Check it out! You can listen to premie devotional music starting right now if you have an MP3 player! How's that for something wunnerful!

Also, if you have any of your own devotional music you can submit it to DevoMuse and they will publish it there as MP3.

And don't forget to visit this dog-slow Jossi Fresco built website EverSound for even more premie music including samples in MP3 and RealVideo.

New Age, World Music, World Fusion, Smooth Jazz. Featuring, Nigel Holton, Manuel Iman, Ron Cleafield, John Adorney, Stuart Hoffman, John Mills, Kazuhiko Ikegami

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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 05:09:12 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: Roger Sonic Producer Drek
Subject: Is the bell about to toll for www.premie.com?
Message:
That's www.premie.com, not www.ex-premie.org.

Looks like www.premie.org might be getting ready to fade into Internet history as a dead link. Or maybe I've missed the point and it is www.premie.com that might be endangered and www.premie.org is safe. I wonder if Ray would sell www.premie.com to me?

Note the title page is now called 'blank page'

Also check out the META NAME='keywords'

CONTENT='premie,premies,knowledge of self,knowledge of soul,knowledge of truth,truth,love,light,living Lord,Guru Maharaji,satsang,meditation,harlan ray cooley,connie cooley,milivoi'

...click here for Premie.org

Trying to decide what to do with this site, premie.com

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Date: Thurs, Sep 16, 1999 at 13:26:33 (EDT)
From: LdM
Email: None
To: All
Subject: A Good Read
Message:
I was reading this excerpt today and thought it was quite apt.

Consider, for example, the former cult member who leaves spouse, and/or family, behind in the group, and the long-term friendships one forsakes upon leaving the group. What grief must accompany the loss of such precious relationships? What of the individual’s personal and social sense of identity, which identity, for so long, was 'defined' by the cult leader or leadership? The recovering former cult member struggles with the loss of his 'cult' identity, and must find, for himself, the answer to the age old question, 'Who am 1?' In addition, the former cult member — now no longer part of a group where lofty, unattainable ideals of perfection and responsibility reign — may grope in an emotional 'limbo' of sorts, feeling that his life has lost significance, meaning, purpose. He no longer has the 'personal responsibility' of saving the world, or of being 'perfect,' weighing upon his shoulders, and struggles to define what his role is, and will be, in life.

Needless to say, in these instances, the potential for feelings of worthlessness, hopelessness, and despair are great. Finally, what of all those innocents, who come face to face with the realization that their trust has been violated — that their bodies, minds, and souls, their love, devotion and energy — have been manipulated, used, and abused, in the name of all that is 'supposed to be' good? Whom can they trust now? Their sense of loss and betrayal, and subsequent grief, are indeed profound!

from Grief, Loss, and the Former Cult Member - Patricia Goski, R.N., Cult Observer, Volume 11, No. 7, 1994.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 16, 1999 at 15:35:11 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: LdM
Subject: thought provoking
Message:
Dear Lee,

That was thought provoking wasn't it?

I have had some news on Jagdeo's whereabouts. Interesting day.

Love,

Liz

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Date: Thurs, Sep 16, 1999 at 16:31:11 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: Re: thought provoking
Message:
Hi Lee. Thank you for your post. I agree wholeheartedly with the author's sentiments. I was not involved for as long as many of the folks who post here. The idea of losing a spouse and kids to the cult makes me very sad. It sounds like experiencing death more than anything else.

Did you and CdM go through times such as this when you were sorting out your relationship to M?

Take care, Marianne

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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 04:13:56 (EDT)
From: LdM
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: thought provoking Friends
Message:
Hi Marianne

Sometimes it's hard to say exactly what I'm experiencing - at the moment, it's always lots! Something that I am having a struggle with is what other people think of me and my past involvement with maharaji. There is a lot of denial coming from friends about whether he was God or not and this necessarily is quite upsetting to Charlie and me. In fact it makes me really angry. On the other hand, I can understand that they either can't or don't want to admit the truth about maharaji being the One and Only, so I try to be forgiving of my friends, but it still leaves me feeling sad and alone.

Have you read that post below from One Timer in New Zealand? Those kind of sentiments - what are you making such a fuss about, my experience of knowledge was beneficial, get a life etc., etc., blah blah blah annoy me in a similar way. However, it does seem to be a very prevalent view with some exes (actually even though he says he's an ex-premie, I don't think he is - sounds like a premie to me).

Have you got friends who have been unsympathetic?

Lee, fed up with being blamed for everything

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Date: Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 02:20:51 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: LdM
Subject: Re: thought provoking Friends
Message:
Dear Lee,

Of course m is not God. Anyone who thinks he is has been hoodwinked. It would be crazy to say that any human is/was God. I find it very difficult to believe Jesus was God either. We are talking about the creator of the Universe here, aren't we? That's who Jesus was talking about I thought. I don't think he would have said he was God either. Only someone as pompous as M would say they are greater than God.
Last night I heard him say that you needed a living Master because why would you want to fly in a plane with no pilot. Duh! Elementary my dear Lee. Well I thought to myself I have my pilot and his/her/it's name is God. I can see Jim's going to have a problem with this!

Love,

Liz

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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 13:15:58 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: LdM
Subject: Re: thought provoking Friends
Message:
Hi Lee. You are one of my thought provoking friends! I have been out for so long that I do not have these discussions with people today. When I left, I lived in a premie house with people who were my closest friends. We still got along with each other. Our biggest fights were about the money issue. Back then, it was accepted that he was LOTU, so that issue did not exist & there was no way to discuss it.

What I found most helpful in the early months after I left DLM was to avoid talking about M with premies. Every time I did it, there was nothing but hostility and frustration on both sides. Talking to premies in person about these issues is like trying to talk to them in posts here. You can't persuade them otherwise. People have to reach this understanding about M on their own. I decided I had to reconcile my feelings about M by myself (I was the first of my group of friends to leave the cult) and with new found non-premie friends. Doubts tended to creep up when debating with premies and that made me wonder if I had done the right thing. The closest thing to this feeling was that instilled by the Catholic Church when I was growing up -- Catholic guilt. Felt exactly the same way.

The path away from K and M is one I think we each have to find on our own. Being involved for years means you have to re-create yourself and your place in the world. I found that the best way to do it was to throw myself into a new pursuit (law school) and to avoid premies until I was secure in my direction. That is what worked for me. Others may have a different experience.

You are lucky you have Charlie and the kids. Those kids (teenagers, aren't they?) will gladly offer up some grand ideas about how to re-direct some of your life! You have your real family now. It is a blessing. Enjoy -- just like those posts you guys made about the eclipse. In a way, these past few months for you have been about the another kind of eclipse -- the departure from M. Congratulations.

Love, Marianne

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Date: Thurs, Sep 16, 1999 at 17:16:48 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: thought provoking
Message:
Dear Marianne,

Did you see the good news? Someone has just told me of Jagdeo's whereabouts - the city at least. Trying to get more info. tonight.

Love,

Liz

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Date: Thurs, Sep 16, 1999 at 17:36:25 (EDT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: Re: thought provoking
Message:
Imagine also those who gave all thier inheritances
and all thier money for years.
Left broke.

Liz, I hope you have proper advice on what to do
with that info.
Immediate arrest is warrented.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 16, 1999 at 11:29:19 (EDT)
From: One timer.
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Why do you bother?
Message:
I'm an ex-premie from Wellington, New Zealand, (1982-1989) and discovered this site during an extremely bored random browsing session... you know, the kind where you just type random search strings for the hell of it. After reading through some of the messages in this forum I felt impelled to write. Not a common urge for me as I find so little to relate personally to on the Web.

My rhetorical question is... Why do you people bother discussing a question which obviously you have already answered for yourselves. If you're ex-premies you might have a common past interest, but I don't see the point of advertising your disenchantment. Is there a club for past investors of the Hindenberg? Why not just forget it and move on?

I found Knowledge to be beneficial. I couldn't help but be enveloped by the religious bullshit that shrouded it. I was lucky that I really didn't buy the bullshit and donate my first-born or something. What I concentrated on was the benefit of the meditation. If you boil away the religious overtones of Perfect Master etc. then all you have is a set of meditation techniques, right?

I feel foolish for having believed for one second that M was some sort of divine thing, but I know that I was never coerced or pressured to feel that way. I've seen it described as a cult but I felt no pressure to conform or 'give'. There were plenty of people around me smiling like idiots and spouting goop about Bliss and stuff. Maybe I felt a little guilty that I couldn't feel that way myself, but no one tried to make me. Sure, if you love someone that much then maybe you'll give them a Learjet or two because it gives you a thrill, but no one's forcing you to do it are they?

I wanted to have faith in something because I felt weak in myself. I wanted a magic panacea to cure my world-weary ills. It turns out that M just was the wrong choice for me. So what. Find something else or become a cynic or whatever. Just take what value you can from the experience and do something else. Learn.

Please don't bother to respond because I won't be back this way again. Thanks.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 16, 1999 at 19:58:57 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: One timer.
Subject: My comment on One Timer's post
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Sep 16, 1999 at 17:11:47 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: One timer.
Subject: And why did YOU bother?
Message:
Hello and goodbye, OT,

I suspect you will check in to read the replies - even if you can't very well join in now, can you? - (unless it is under a another alias, of course). What motivation could possibly make you bother to sit down and write 400-odd words in that familiar 'get-a-life', passive aggressive manner we have seen a hundred times before? And why on earth demand to know why anyone else bothers when you aren't even interested in a reply to your question? Makes you look kinda stupid.

I'm an ex-premie from Wellington, New Zealand, (1982-1989) and discovered this site during an extremely bored random browsing session... you know, the kind where you just type random search strings for the hell of it.

Ok, so you never even meant to be here. (It's ok, believe me, we wouldn't think less of you if you had come here on purpose.)

After reading through some of the messages in this forum I felt impelled to write. Not a common urge for me as I find so little to relate personally to on the Web.

That's sad.

My rhetorical question is... Why do you people bother discussing a question which obviously you have already answered for yourselves. If you're ex-premies you might have a common past interest, but I don't see the point of advertising your disenchantment. Is there a club for past investors of the Hindenberg? Why not just forget it and move on?

You are begging the question. I don't know anyone who comes here to advertise disenchantment. And what is it to you, even if they did?

The forum has many roles, the most important of which is the support it provides for premies struggling to quit, and for people not long out of the cult. Many grateful customers etc. Are you suggesting that just because you managed to get out with, presumably, a minimum of psychological damage (possibly because the nineteen-eighties was a very low-pressure phase of EV's existence), everyone else should find it as easy?

For others, the forum is a source of fun - laughing at the ludicrous, messianic posturing of this funny little fat Indian guy we used to think was God. Believe me, it can be very cathartic. For better or worse, spending your formative years in the cult environment plays a big part in defining the adult you become. Some of us have a lot to talk about, that we couldn't share with anybody else. You know, chuckle at the sheer bloody absurdity of it all.

The forum (and the main ex-premie site) has also stopped a number of aspirants from getting further involved and trashing a decade or so of their lives. The internet is making it harder for M to spread bullshit and lie about his past.

Do you have a problem with any of these reasons?

I found Knowledge to be beneficial. I couldn't help but be enveloped by the religious bullshit that shrouded it. I was lucky that I really didn't buy the bullshit and donate my first-born or something. What I concentrated on was the benefit of the meditation. If you boil away the religious overtones of Perfect Master etc. then all you have is a set of meditation techniques, right?

Oh come on - when is bullshit ever beneficial? How do you imagine people feel who did buy the bullshit? Their own fault, I suppose...

But if you're saying 'boil away the religious overtones' and keep what is left, namely, the meditation, then you are actually stating another important purpose of the web site - an educational one: meditation or 'Knowledge' is not Maharaji's gift, and the guy is a fraud and a liar to pretend otherwise. The techniques are public domain, taught by many (equally bullshit, IMO) mystical traditions. Is it wrong to make this information public?

I feel foolish for having believed for one second that M was some sort of divine thing, but I know that I was never coerced or pressured to feel that way. I've seen it described as a cult but I felt no pressure to conform or 'give'. There were plenty of people around me smiling like idiots and spouting goop about Bliss and stuff. Maybe I felt a little guilty that I couldn't feel that way myself, but no one tried to make me. Sure, if you love someone that much then maybe you'll give them a Learjet or two because it gives you a thrill, but no one's forcing you to do it are they?

Perhaps you were luckier than you realise. The eighties were a very low-key, low-intensity period for DLM/EV. I suggest you read the 'journeys' section of ex-premie.org.

I wanted to have faith in something because I felt weak in myself. I wanted a magic panacea to cure my world-weary ills. It turns out that M just was the wrong choice for me. So what. Find something else or become a cynic or whatever. Just take what value you can from the experience and do something else. Learn.

Maharaji turned our to be the wrong choice for over 90% of everyone who ever got Knowledge (at least in the UK), not just you. For the majority of premies, the magic panacea doesn't work as prescribed. Why shouldn't the world be made aware of the fact..?

Please don't bother to respond because I won't be back this way again. Thanks.

Thanks for what?

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Date: Thurs, Sep 16, 1999 at 17:24:46 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: nigel
Subject: oops - HTML cock-up...
Message:
The final paragraph, as well as the third- and fifth-to last are mine, if it isn't obvious.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 16, 1999 at 17:42:54 (EDT)
From: Officer Roger O'Drek
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: Nigel, Nigel, Nigel - you CAN edit the post and fix it!
Message:
Nigel,

I'll let you off with a warning this time! YOU can view the post and at the bottom of the post is a link that says '(edit this message)'. And here is where YOU can edit the message and make it pretty!

And as I was reading your post I was considering it as a candidate for ***Best***.

Yes, the 80's were very low key, low pressure. For awhile I don't think that there was any organized sanctioned satsang. It also seemed that Maharaji dropped out of the scene to raise his kids or make babies with other women or something.

It was a good time for premies to go back to school and/or try to get their lives together after wasting the 70's tramping around the world for some exotic erotic toe-sucking!

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Date: Thurs, Sep 16, 1999 at 17:53:29 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigelvkjdhvkjdfv
To: Officer Roger O'Drek
Subject: Thanks officer...
Message:
Bloody hell, I never noticed that - I'll try it. (By the way, I cut a load of words from that illusion of surrendedered control post. Don't know whether you found it, or even whether I cut the right words... but thanks for 'best of' selection, anyway. 'Tis a great honour, indeed.)

Does this editing feature mean, BTW, that Deputy Dog could go back and change his criticisms of Maharaji just to try and prove Jim's interpretation wrong?

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Date: Thurs, Sep 16, 1999 at 21:56:34 (EDT)
From: Officer Drek
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: Re: Thanks officer...
Message:
Does this editing feature mean, BTW, that Deputy Dog could go back and change his criticisms of Maharaji just to try and prove Jim's interpretation wrong?

Yes, unfortunately that is possible. There might be a timer that doesn't allow changes after a certain amount of time. I'll check it out with one of my old posts.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 16, 1999 at 15:21:22 (EDT)
From: AJhic
Email: None
To: One timer.
Subject: Stumble hic
Message:
Hi Two Timers,

As old One Timer has gone, and isn't ever coming back, and feeling flush and verbose, I'll mouth off about him behind his back.

He's mistaken about the purpose of this Forum, it's for bitter ex premies to slag off their ex master (although they should feel free to do so here), it's a place where people who've been in a religious cult can sort themselves out a bit, and readjust to rejoining the human race.

Maybe One Timer got off lightly, but some of us moulded our lives around the invisible suit of an Emporer, parading naked through the streets.

However, in the third paragraph, old One Timer falls on his own sword. Ha ha ha. Gimmeee a Bible to punch.

'Knowledge is beneficial' eh One Timer? Ha ha ha ha ha.

So, what you're telling me here is, God is snot right? Snot, and your breath and some patterns when you back up your optic nerve, I'm sure I've missed something, what the hell.

Anyway, this bollocks is only beneficial if you've swallowed the party line and attached it to infinity in your mind.

So, poor old One Timer, despite his brief flirtation with the Mickey Mouse of Cults, still believes some of the gurus bullshit.

Ha ha ha.

Pity he's never gonna come back. He had a chance to sort himself out on the internet.

Gorra go,

Anth the mouthing off after drinking a respectable amount of red wine, it's a good job his dinner is on the table or he'd get himself in the shit. (hic, red red wine..... goes to my head oh yeah....stumble hic)

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Date: Thurs, Sep 16, 1999 at 15:38:57 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: none
To: AJhic
Subject: Jagdeo whereabouts
Message:
Dear Anthony,

Good news today. Someone has just told me the whereabouts of Jagdeo. The city anyway. Were getting closer......

Love,

Liz

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Date: Thurs, Sep 16, 1999 at 15:55:29 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: anthginn@yahoo.com
To: Liz
Subject: Re: Jagdeo whereabouts
Message:
Hi Liz,

Email me, or put it on the Forum. I'll let the police officer who's investigating the case know.

Although the Sunday Express dropped the Jagdeo story, I think it's been picked up by another British newspaper, so watch this space.

Take care,

Anth the Unruly

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Date: Thurs, Sep 16, 1999 at 16:01:19 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: That poor old man Jagdeo
Message:
Yes, it would be really nice to know what Jagdeo is doing. Is he retired? Living on a pension? Being cared for by DLM/EV as a reward for his years of faithful service to the Living Master, the Perfect Master, the Satguru, the Lord of the Universe?

And, if supported/sheltered by DLM/EV are current donations by premies going to support him? Shudder!

I saw a PBS show on some village in India where the insane are chained to trees to live out their lives. Perhaps, their families come and feed them or the alledged institution does. Such treatment would be far too good for Jagdeo.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 16, 1999 at 15:17:12 (EDT)
From: An Investor
Email: None
To: One timer.
Subject: Re: Why do you bother?
Message:
Is there a club for past investors of the Hindenberg?

I would certainly hope so. You see, my investment in the Hindenberg did go quite sour. Now, at 90 years of age, I am so overjoyed that I'm finally getting a chance to talk about it. You see, all of my co-investors either killed themselves after the disaster, or were on the great airship went it went down. Pity. But thank you so much for bringing it up. It's not everyday I get to talk about it. Were you an investor, One Timer? If so, let's do lunch sometime. I so look forward to talking to someone who has suffered as I have. It helps, you know, to discuss common matters among friends. Wouldn't you agree? I do so much hope that we have this matter in common. I could use a sympathetic ear to discuss it. When shall we meet?

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Date: Thurs, Sep 16, 1999 at 13:18:14 (EDT)
From: two timer
Email: None
To: One timer.
Subject: Re: Why do you bother?
Message:
Because it only being responsible to provide help
to those about to be ensnared in a trap that you
don't know the extent of.
It is being responsible to those that are crippled
by the effects of prem rawat and his delusion and his
meglomania.
YOU are not familiar with this subject and the
reasonableness if our actions.
YOU say you won't even read this but leave your
-distain- like a dropping and shrug your shoulders
with the uninformed head on top.

Your ignorance and disregard are not capable of makeing
any inroads here. We don't follow know it alls anymore.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 16, 1999 at 15:41:05 (EDT)
From: old timer
Email: None
To: two timer
Subject: Re: Why do you bother?
Message:
We don't follow know it alls anymore.

No, just know nothings like you, right? Bill, you are a clearly a cripple suffering from a host of self-inflicted wounds and afflictions. How can someone who clearly needs a lot of help themself offer anything to anybody else? Actually the putrification that emanates from your posts is indicator enough to most intellegent people to steer clear from any advice they contain.

Of course, having said that I am reminded of that old saw that there is something to learn from everyone.

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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 00:23:37 (EDT)
From: 2 timer
Email: None
To: old timer
Subject: a do do do, a da da da, is all I want to say to you.
Message:
guru's, priest's, and politicians,
say words to get you in submission.

Innocence has pulled me through.
And so many posts from those unlike you
who bother to reach and help to lift
me from the burden of a 'gift'
that came with domination and a cage
while my time flew by and my body did age
who else but those here do understand
the years and the lord that turned to sand
and left me surrounded with those that lie
about the past and why I tried
to reach the sight of a thousand suns
and feed a holy family that weighed 6 tons
and work and slave and sit and sing
and not gain a god damn thing
except the privledge to -look within-
while my guru shops and lives in sin
you say intelligent people should 'steer clear'
of the stink and words that I post here
what the heck! hey I agree
but maybe the 'old saw' sees my wings fly free

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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 16:51:38 (EDT)
From: People's Poet.
Email: None
To: 2 timer
Subject: Better than Arti 2 timer (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Sep 16, 1999 at 17:36:43 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: old timer
Subject: Lying, timewasting premie.
Message:
So you have the same browser configuration as URL, and you know that last post was from Bill, heh?

God, you premies are pathetic.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 16, 1999 at 17:51:20 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: who, if he was in New Zealand...
Message:
...must have posted his original one at around 3.30 in the morning. Obviously too bored to sleep. Notice too, how, unusually for a so-called visitor, URL - I mean 'One Timer' - slips into the shorthand of using 'M' for Maharaji...

URL - or whoever you are - you're just another anonymous premie coward, ringing doorbells and running away.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 16, 1999 at 18:32:52 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: Look who's lecturing us on honesty
Message:
Hey nigel, sorry to foil your scoop but I'm not one timer. And don't get too pious accusing others of lying. Have you forgotten the lie you were caught in covering for Ben while he made up some bullshit story about Maharaji?

URL - or whoever you are - you're just another anonymous premie coward, ringing doorbells and running away.

And you are a closed-minded misanthrope who desperately needs to hate in order to give their life purpose. One timer has at least moved on and found a purpose that doesn't feed on hatred and the demonisation of premies.

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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 15:26:38 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: URL is in a cult
Message:
Hi URL

Guess what? You're in a cult and I can prove it.

Wanna play?

Anth the seeker of truth.

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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 08:58:03 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: URL
Subject: misanthrope?
Message:
And you are a closed-minded misanthrope who desperately needs to hate in order to give their life purpose.

Five questions:

1) Do you know what 'misanthrope' means?
2) If so, can you justify your use of the word?
3) How do you know I am closed-minded?
4) What makes you think my life has no purpose?
5) My name is Nigel Longhurst. I live and work in Liverpool, UK. You can speak to me on (0)151 794 2173 (daytimes) or (0)151 734 0420 (evenings). Email nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk. I have told no lies here and I am prepared to stand by every word I have ever written on the forum. Who are you, URL/ Nil? - and why are you so ashamed to let the world know you love Mr Rawat?

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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 14:57:56 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: URL smells like Nil
Message:
I read some post by URL that indicated that he is an experienced old timer here at the Forum.

However, I've been thinking that these hardcore premies have the need to frequently adopt new monikers since they lose credibility so quickly that they have nowhere to go when they have painted themselves into such a tight little corner.

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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 17:45:56 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: barney
Subject: definitely so...
Message:
The style is identical. Always the proxy for M as wounded party.

Notice how quickly URL denied that he was 'one timer', but he never denied being Nil on the three or more occasions I made the suggestion (nor, come to think of it, did Nil...). Heaven forbid, he might even be proud of Nil's contributions to reasoned discussion.

Like you suggest, Barney, URL doesn't seem to feel particular comfortable with who he is, or what he believes. He knows that exes are the last people who will ever be persuaded that M and K are forces for good in this world, but he spends time here (rather than on, say, 'premies and friends...' - where expressing an opinion is as useful as kicking a dead tortoise) in order to persuade himself that life with K is worth living.

Perhaps that's another useful function for the forum - a wall for wavering premies to shadow-box against - ever anonymously and in the middle of the night when no-one's looking.

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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 12:35:43 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: Yes misanthrope
Message:
1) Do you know what 'misanthrope' means?
2) If so, can you justify your use of the word?

misanthrope: a person who hates mankind

Your hatred comes through in every one of your posts -- except to people you agree with. Believe me I've been on the other end of them.

3) How do you know I am closed-minded?

Your insistence that anybody following Maharaji falls into some kind of cardboard mould where we are all brainwashed, dishonest, unquestioning, morons. If you knew me you would definitely not think that. So my friend, as you can see I'm in an excellent position to know how closed minded you are.

4) What makes you think my life has no purpose?

Just a silly wild-assed guess. You tell me Mr. Honesty, does your hatred for Maharaji NOT give purpose to your life?

5) My name is Nigel Longhurst. I live and work in Liverpool, UK. You can speak to me on (0)151 794 2173 (daytimes) or (0)151 734 0420 (evenings). Email

What a fucking hero! Just what I want to do -- have a long distance shouting match with a closed-minded misanthrope like you. Sorry, I'm too busy buying mind-numbing videos and supporting Maharaji's lavish lifestyle to be able to afford it.

I have told no lies here and I am prepared to stand by every word I have ever written on the forum.

Let me refresh your selective memory nige. About a month ago Ben Lurking claimed Maharaji knew of some scam a couple of premies were pulling off, but when pressed he retracted; I called him on his dishonesty; you chimed in and supported Ben by saying I was attacking him when he was on shaky ground; I called you on supporting Ben's dishonesty; you tried to wriggle out of it by saying you hadn't. But it was all there was in black in yellow for anyone who cared to look. Look in the mirror Nigel, maybe you're not the honest upstanding bloke you think you are.

And I have no doubt you stand by your every word. Dishonest people make a point of standing by the lies they tell. Even the heroic act of standing by their 'word' punctuates their dishonesty.

If you can't provide the evidence, fuck off with your stupid allegations.

Fuck you nigel. Maybe one day after I've been given my allowance I'll be able to give you a call and tell you that in person.

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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 16:08:46 (EDT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: Re: Yes misanthrope
Message:
You asked a 2 part question, I replied to part of it, you said that made me a liar, you are the one that drug M into the scams and I do believe that if he doesn't know his car got impounded and he doesn't know that his driver carried multiple id's ( he was charged for it along with speeding) and if he doesn't know becuse DLM took care of it then WHY THE FUCK IS DLM PAYING BAIL FOR A PRIVATE CITIZENS AUTOMOBILE THAT THEY HAVE NO LEGAL JUSTIFICATION AS A NON PROFIT IN SUPPORTING. You cant have it both ways URL If M never KNEW then DLM commited a diversion of funds to bail his car and driver out. How is that a religous act.
Ex -pemies have historical proof that premies can act violently towards 'non-believers' IE the Fakiranand incident, What incidents of violence can you quote of ex-premies against premies? Nigel is braver than I am I got to many of those hindus in my town to let my name out. I don't need some asshole to hammer my head for not liking M. Why don't you follow one-timer off into the sunset -go kiss some feet or something.
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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 15:32:02 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: Would you URL, would you?
Message:
Hi again,

Hey, URL, if, at the next programme you went to with your master, he announced he'd do a 'Darshan Line' (remember them, where you put your best suit on, sit in semi-darkness in the hall, 'preparing yourself', join the line, get your empty envelope, put your dosh in, walk before the master, bow down and kiss his feet, would you join in URL?

Would you?

Would you?

And if the answer is 'Yes' URL, I would say you're a brainwashed cult member. Course that's only my opinion

But would you URL? Would you got through the darshan line, hand over your cash and kiss the holy lotus feet.

Ha ha ha.

Course you would dickhead.

Ho ho ho.

Anth the Been There and Done It.

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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 16:57:30 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Would you URL, would you?
Message:
Dear Anth, the Thrushed with His Own Arrogance

Kissing the feet of a revered individual is a sign of respect that is done in some other cultures.

You expose a very narrow-minded western chauvanistic atitude Anth.

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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 18:56:09 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: We'll take that as a 'yes'
Message:
Kissing the feet of a revered individual is a sign of respect that is done in some other cultures.

How can you 'do' a sign of respect?

And does 'Ole Blossom Toes kiss your feet when he lines up before your throne...? (In the interests of cultural exchange and a freer world, of course... )

Is 'the argument from faraway cultures' on the Top Twenty Slippery Premie Defences chart list yet, webmeister?

Is being a 'revered individual', in itself, worth anything..?

So you still like to suck his toes, Nil.. is it as good as all that, after all these years?

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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 17:22:53 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: Pass the Dettol (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 13:34:05 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demonc.co.uk
To: URL
Subject: Calm down, brother - you're getting hysterical
Message:
misanthrope: a person who hates mankind

Your hatred comes through in every one of your posts -- except to people you agree with. Believe me I've been on the other end of them.

I'll admit I have pulled you up on certain points of fact. I have asked you justify unwarranted allegations. Told you fuck off when you started a thread and accused me of supporting Ben's 'lies' (your word, not mine) when I hadn't even mentioned the guy... But 'hate mankind'...? Hmm... on balance, I care quite strongly about mankind - but absolutely loathe what cult indoctrination does to people - and what it can do to innocent bystanders including friends and family (my own included).

Your insistence that anybody following Maharaji falls into some kind of cardboard mould where we are all brainwashed, dishonest, unquestioning, morons. If you knew me you would definitely not think that. So my friend, as you can see I'm in an excellent position to know how closed minded you are.

Do I think premies are brainwashed? - certainly. Dishonest? - frequently. Unquestioning? - usually. Morons? - sometimes. Been there myself, pal. Done all four. You can't kid a kidder. You may be brighter than some premies, but open-minded you most certainly are not - at least not on the evidence you present here.

So how 'open-minded' are you when it comes to, say, purely biological and psychological explanations of consciousness and meditation experiences? How open is any premie? I have noticed they can over-react quite dramatically the moment you suggest Knowledge is nobody's gift and Mr Rawat is just another mortal with no special qualities... How far are you willing to question any of Maharaji's teachings, URL?

What a fucking hero! Just what I want to do -- have a long distance shouting match with a closed-minded misanthrope like you. Sorry, I'm too busy buying mind-numbing videos and supporting Maharaji's lavish lifestyle to be able to afford it.

I identified myself so the EV lawyers know where to look me up when the time comes to issue the libel writs.

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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 15:11:36 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: Re: Calm down, brother - you're getting hysterical
Message:
Do I think premies are brainwashed? - certainly. Dishonest? - frequently. Unquestioning? - usually. Morons? - sometimes. Been there myself, pal. Done all four. You can't kid a kidder. You may be brighter than some premies, but open-minded you most certainly are not - at least not on the evidence you present here.

So you are like a reformed smoker who's intolerance for their own propensity for addiction gives them an 'absolute' vantage point to understand all smokers. Fact is nigel you ONLY understand your own propensity for the above mentioned characteristics, and their historical association with what you now call a cult. To assume we all have stayed associated with Maharaji for the same reasons that you did is extremely closed-minded. I for one have questioned probably all the same things you have. The difference was I found a different answer than you. Your intolerance of my answer as demonstrated by the hate riddled and abusive posts to me and other premies puts you in the same class as the type of people to which you seem so vehemently opposed.

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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 17:54:16 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: URL
Subject: Jeez, I give up...
Message:
Your intolerance of my answer as demonstrated by the hate riddled and
abusive posts to me and other premies puts you in the same class as the type of people to
which you seem so vehemently opposed.

You're making no sense here. How can you be 'vehemently opposed' to a person..? - rather than, say, a daft idea (such as Mr Rawat is the living incarnation of God...)

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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 15:34:33 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: URL the questioner.
Message:
URL,

Have you ever questioned why you would kiss your master's sweaty feet (all feet sweat by the way, nothing personal).

Have ya URL?

Why would you kiss his feet URL?

Anth the Ex foot kisser.

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Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 10:42:35 (EDT)
From: Me luv toes
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Kissin' da holy toes
Message:
Kissin' da feet of da mastah
Make me feel good
Yeah, kissin' da toes of da mastah
Everthin' they said it would

Yeah, I like da feet of da mastauh
I like how they smell
Kissin dem
Is like oh so swell

No more darshan
done gimme da blues
Now i only git
To look at his shoes

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Date: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 14:49:02 (EDT)
From: Know It All
Email: None
To: Me luv toes
Subject: Foot fetish
Message:
That's a good yuk there, Mr. Toes.
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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 15:07:46 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: Interesting how URL has overblown Ben's 'lie'
Message:
I do not remember the details of Ben's major mistake, but I recall that Ben made a minor assumption that attributed something to Maharaji having knowledge of some premie act. Again, I do not remember the exact details, but it was no big deal.

Now, URL thinks that he has located the keystone with which to bring down everything and everybody here. It would appear that URL no longer remembers the details either and is now posting in very general terms which are difficult to refute.

I'd hope that URL would post the exact details when he makes his general allegations, but it's ancient history now and was such a non-event that only a premie grasping at straws would latch on to.

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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 15:23:54 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: Re: Interesting how URL has overblown Ben's 'lie'
Message:
I do not remember the details of Ben's major mistake, but I recall that Ben made a minor assumption that attributed something to Maharaji having knowledge of some premie act. Again, I do not remember the exact details, but it was no big deal.

Oh it was a big deal barney. Ben got caught doing something that I've watched many others do but couldn't offer any proof. What Ben et al have done is 'assert' their assumptions to be truth; others then accept it as such; it then becomes 'fact' to be added to a trumped-up litany of allegations against Maharaji -- as recently spouted off by JW. What Ben demonstrated was just how these little white lies get started and grow. To you who don't have the integrity to see the impact of Ben's actions it's not a big deal. To me it is.

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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 17:22:36 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: That's it! BLOCK Ben Lurking now!
Message:
I agree with you completely URL even though I didn't even bother to read your post.

Ben Lurking is a devious liar and deserves to be blocked from the Forum until hell freezes over.

URL, you should be commended for coming up with that blockbuster of an expose!

Ben Lurking, you're a nobody now!

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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 16:17:40 (EDT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: Re: Interesting how URL has overblown Ben's 'lie'
Message:
I offered a challenge a few weeks ago -Prove to me with out any beliefs that M is GOD, I say he isn't. Get my address from the Webmaster Sue me for slander have at it URL. I am worth suing have M's minnions chase me down for slander, lets quit micning aroud lets get to the heart of the matter. I say he isn't GOD isn't the Lord of the Universe, isn't all knowing. What could be more harmful. What could be more Libelous. Take me to court - prove to the world I am Lying let him prove he is LOTU - you guys just ASSUME it your whole trip is based on acceptance of that one tiney little falsehood - he aint god he aint lotu. Prove me a liar absolute proof not your beliefs. Go find the challenge and have at it.
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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 17:03:32 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: Ben Lurking
Subject: Re: Interesting how URL has overblown Ben's 'lie'
Message:
Ben you don't know what a lord of the universe is in order to have something to compare him to. Do you get it? You have no baseline; no mall floorplan saying 'You Are Here'; no yardstick by which to measure.
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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 19:09:32 (EDT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: Re: Interesting how URL has overblown Ben's 'lie'
Message:
We can uses M's definiton of GOD Generator Operator Deystroyer
or we could do something stupid and use Websters.
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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 18:13:11 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: URL
Subject: An excellent point, Nil... The baseline IS VERY important.
Message:
ie., the rest of us.

Ben you don't know what a lord of the universe is in order to have something to compare him to. Do you get it? You have no baseline; no mall floorplan saying 'You Are Here'; no yardstick by which to measure.

The trouble is, as always, the burden of proof lies with the claimant. Try this: we know that human beings exist. It is rather less certain whether Lords of the Universe (or Unicorns) exist. We know that human beings - mere mortals with sweaty feet - exist. We also know Prem Rawat is a human being. We have a baseline: Prem Rawat is a human being.

Your turn...

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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 18:53:16 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: The real baseline...
Message:
...is the heart. Seek and ye shall find. That which you seek is within you. Ask with a heart of a child. You will know him by his fruits.

You know all the cliches by now nigel. Cliche or not they're all still relevant, for those who REALLY want to know.

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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 21:11:51 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: URL
Subject: Well done, Sir! - you've finally proved Maharaji is God. I resign...
Message:
You can't flick from talking about setting a scientific baseline for evaluating evidence to quoting the 'ole book' like a southern Baptist just like that - unless, say, you were really desperate, really stupid, really - I dunno - just a really weird cult person..

Can't we talk about baselines a bit more? Baselines I understand. Cults I do not.

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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 20:08:26 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: Like bad makeup on a crusty old whore
Message:
Funny how assholes like you can mouth these empty cliches without gagging.
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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 20:51:49 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Like bad makeup on a crusty old whore
Message:
'Cause I still believe it to be true. Got a problem with that?
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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 22:17:26 (EDT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: Re: Like bad makeup on a crusty old whore
Message:
'Cause I still believe it to be true. Got a problem with that?

That is the crux of the issue ' You Believe it ' I don't. I won't until you can prove what you believe to be absolutley true.

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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 20:01:09 (EDT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: Re: The real baseline...
Message:
So when I make a logical jump or conclusion you discard it as not absolutely true becuase I can't absolutlety prove it, but now we have to take a leap of faith and by your fruit you shall no them. Please define the 2 standards of 'proof' so we can also weave in and out.
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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 19:16:18 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co,yk
To: URL
Subject: Ask with the heart of a child... and...
Message:
Santa will send presents down the chimney, for sure... the tooth fairy will deliver. African kids will get river blindness when that good ole Perfect Creator sends perfectly created worms to eat their perfectly created eyeballs out. Get real, for once, Nil...

BTW: did you ever consider asking somebody else (other than Maharaji) 'with the heart of a child..?'

If so, whom? - would you recommend them to others? Do they give refunds?

Prem will get richer. The rest is uncertain.

URL, you are in a cult - get the fuck out of there for your own sake. I've nothing more to say to you. Get real for once.

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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 19:21:59 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: Re: Ask with the heart of a child...
Message:
A bit jaded nigel, are we? Remember you are the one who wanted to play this game. So you tell me, in a discussion about God and how to know/find him/her/it, how do you recommend approaching the subject.
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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 21:35:04 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrwo,demon.co.uk
To: URL
Subject: My kids have hearts and they ask lots of questions,,,
Message:
...so how would you recommend I reply if one of them finds a picture of Golden Balls in the attic and asks 'who is that, then?'

God incarnate?

Lord of the Universe?

Living Perfect Master?

A meditation teacher?

A better than average westernised guru with a nice line in Vedic folktales?

Someone who knows four very special meditation techniques (- but prefers to keep them secret until you are ready).

Seriously, URL, what would you suggest I tell them?

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Date: Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 20:35:55 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: Re: My kids have hearts and they ask lots of questions,,,
Message:
How 'bout, 'someone who says he can teach you something important about yourself...here's a video, you be the judge.'
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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 20:39:34 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: URL
Subject: ...ask Jagdeo with the heart of a child? (nt)
Message:
And grace will look after you, I guess.
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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 17:38:19 (EDT)
From: FORUM POLICE AND JUSTICE TRIBUNAL
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: STOP! The trial of young Ben Lurking will be held at Anything Goes
Message:
Alas, Anything Goes arrives from deep space just in time for the trial of young Ben Lurking as so ordered by the Forum Justice Tribunal.

Ben Lurking has been accused of serious crimes for which the punishment is the removal of a finger for each count that he is convicted of.

Forum protocol demands that any such trials are to be held on the rudderless Anything Goes forum. Failure to appear will lead the Tribunal to issue a warrant for your arrest.

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Date: Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 06:21:42 (EDT)
From: THE HIGH TRIBUNAL
Email: None
To: FORUM POLICE AND JUSTICE TRIBUNAL
Subject: Re: STOP! The trial of young Ben Lurking will be held at Anything Goes
Message:
The High Tribunal concurs and hereby issues a summons for the appearance of one Prem Pal Singh Rawat at the above mentioned forum.
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Date: Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 12:06:28 (EDT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: THE HIGH TRIBUNAL
Subject: Re: STOP! The trial of young Ben Lurking will be held at Anything Goes
Message:
Are you prepared for crwod control, what are the rules for cyber darshan and how will I recieve a fair trial when all the premies come out of the woodwork for cyber darshan. This is highly inflamatroy. I move for a change of venue to left of the light and below the nectar, or the Ceasars crap tables in Las Vegas. I will act as my own attorney but ask that Marriane and Jim jump in to depose Prepal as needed on my behalf. I invite all ex and non premies who disagree with me to email. I will count as in my favor all of the world wide population that doesnot email me.
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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 22:22:55 (EDT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: FORUM POLICE AND JUSTICE TRIBUNAL
Subject: POLICE FAIL TO PROVIDE LINK BEN INNOCENT OF ALL CHARGES!
Message:
You demand my presece and I come off a beer nod and am ready to appear and THERE IS NO LINK TO AG

I CLaim Vitctory Police failed to give me an address to appear at! I WIN I am A TRUTH TELLER!!!!!!!!!!!

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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 20:36:59 (EDT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: FORUM POLICE AND JUSTICE TRIBUNAL
Subject: Re: STOP! The trial of young Ben Lurking will be held at Anything Goes
Message:
I do not recognize your validity - I chose to not appear. I will argue my case here before known lurkers, not off in some cyber space AGF conglomerate. I bet you guys don't even use tcp/ip wrappers over there. I just had to help drink a bunch of German beer so someone could have empty cans for their collection I must now retire to the land of winken, blinken and on the nod.
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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 15:38:07 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: Another Question.
Message:
Hi URL

So Do you think your master is perfect, that he can do no wrong? That whatever he does is his 'lila', to test you?

What if he fudged and procrastinated, to protect a paedophile? Would that be his 'lila' too URL?

Anth the curious

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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 17:46:43 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Another Question.
Message:
So Do you think your master is perfect, that he can do no wrong?

He taught me something that is perfect, which he has clearly mastered. He most certainly can make mistakes, which I give him the latitude to do.

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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 18:35:11 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: URL
Subject: Sad toe-kisser...
Message:
He taught me something that is perfect, which he has clearly mastered.

How many lessons did it take for you to understand that what the lord of the unicorns was teaching you was 'perfect'. At what point, and upon what evidence, did you believe him?

Please explain your use of the word 'clearly' - 'coz I'm a bit confused, Mahatma ji...

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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 04:22:21 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: URL
Subject: When did I lie?
Message:
You still haven't answered that one. If you can't provide the evidence, fuck off with your stupid allegations.

Jai satchitanand.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 16, 1999 at 15:56:24 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: old timer
Subject: Isn't that nice, old timer?
Message:
When all else fails go to groundless character assasination!

You guys are cowards self-tasked with an impossible mission resorting General Sherman-like burning of Alanta tactics.

Such an example you set for premies. Hopefully, all premies are not like you.

Is that you CD?

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Date: Thurs, Sep 16, 1999 at 15:51:45 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: old timer
Subject: Re: Why do you bother?
Message:
Dear Oldtimer,

Maybe you should rename yourself NoAll. This forum is in the process of tracking down a childmolester named Mahatma by Miraji.

Can't all be bad.

Love,

Liz

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Date: Thurs, Sep 16, 1999 at 18:04:06 (EDT)
From: oldtimer
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: Re: Why do you bother?
Message:
Can't be all bad? Hmmmmm. Well, I'd say to look at good and bad in such black and white terms is naive and somewhat barbarian. If in the carrying out of justice you abuse the perpetrator in the process, is that good? I mean, are the people stoning one accused of killing absolved in the eyes of good and bad from murder? Do you care enough about good and bad to get it right or are you satisfied with just getting close?
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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 01:03:32 (EDT)
From: liz
Email: None
To: oldtimer
Subject: wood from trees
Message:
Dear Oldtimer,

For someone too high & mighty to reply you sure hang around. This forum despite it's imperfections (and I admit there are many) has helped a lot of people (premies) including me see 'the wood from the trees.' No everything is not as black & white as Miragi makes out and it helps the discriminating mind (the rational one not Mirajis so called 'crazy one) to know the whole truth about things and not have things covered over and hushed up to make P.R.for Miraji look good whatever the cost to the truth.

Because that is what is happening as if you hadn't noticed!

Love,

Liz

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Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 13:09:39 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: liz
Subject: Re: wood from trees
Message:
I don't doubt for a minute your participation makes you feel better. Lots of people participate in all manner of on-line chat groups and forums because it provides a meeting place for like-minded people to express themselves. And it makes them feel good if for no other reason than because they get to talk to people who support their views.

You do have to be careful though Liz. Just because you are hearing what you want to hear doesn't mean it's true. Don't you think white supremacists use on-line forums for a similar reason as do you? Don't you think conspiracy theorists use on-line forums for a similar purpose as do you and your fellow forum buddies. And what about UFO enthusiasts? Or followers of satanic religions? Just because it 'helps' them doesn't mean their ideas are based in truth.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 16, 1999 at 16:26:09 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: OH LIZZIE!!!!!
Message:
Hi Lizzie! How are you doing? It is VERY IMPORTANT that you give Anth the information about Jagdeo as soon as possible. Can you tell us, is he being supported by EV? I would really like to know.

Many thanks, sweetie, Marianne

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