Forum IV: The Ex-Premie Forum
Archive: 5
From: Tues, Sep 21, 1999 To: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 Page: 2 Of: 5


Ubi -:- Charity Begins @ Home ;-) -:- Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 11:57:29 (EDT)
__ Dr Octopus -:- Re: Charity Begins @ Home ;-) -:- Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 05:45:06 (EDT)
__ Ubi -:- EV Georgia on My Mind -:- Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 12:04:25 (EDT)
__ __ Ubi -:- SEVA Corporation of America - Aircraft -:- Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 12:31:48 (EDT)
__ __ __ Happy -:- Re: SEVA Corporation of America - Aircraft -:- Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 06:27:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Miss Led -:- Udo Erasmus -:- Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 18:42:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Yeah, but where is that pesky Gulfstream -:- Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 15:27:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Orlando -:- He does not own a Gulfstream, dear (nt) -:- Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 19:43:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Ubi -:- Re: He does not own a Gulfstream, dear (nt) -:- Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 09:40:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Then Prempal's not a wise investor! -:- Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 04:17:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ A Premie -:- Quite right, Orlando -:- Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 21:31:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Mis Led -:- Re: Quite right, Orlando -:- Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 18:47:59 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ An Ex-Premie Jr. -:- without his devotees, he would be a homeless vagrant - EXACTLY WHAT WE WANT! -:- Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 04:39:56 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- Austrailia a third world country? Not -:- Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 20:23:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- And more Mission Impossible -:- Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 17:44:46 (EDT)

Forum Administrator -:- Test (nt) -:- Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 10:09:50 (EDT)

Marianne -:- EV Fund for Abuse Victims? -:- Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 13:18:24 (EDT)
__ Enough -:- Re: EV Fund for Abuse Victims? -:- Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 15:00:35 (EDT)
__ Archive -:- Re: EV Fund for Abuse Victims? -:- Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 14:45:11 (EDT)
__ __ Marianne -:- Bill P replaced Mishler?! -:- Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 14:58:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ archives -:- Re: Bill P replaced Mishler?! -:- Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 00:10:35 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Re: Bill P replaced Mishler?! -:- Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 11:32:34 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ bb -:- Re: Bill P replaced Mishler?! -:- Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 20:40:51 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Re: Bill P replaced Mishler?! -:- Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 21:04:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- I think YOU'RE the confused one, Monmot -:- Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 09:42:51 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Re: I think YOU'RE the confused one, Monmot -:- Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 10:11:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ bb -:- Re: I think YOU'RE the confused one, Monmot -:- Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 23:08:31 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Re: I think YOU'RE the confused one, Monmot -:- Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 23:14:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ *>*...b -:- St. Monmot -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 11:46:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Re: St. Monmot -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 12:51:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ bb -:- Monmot blvd. -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 22:53:07 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Re: Monmot blvd. -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 23:46:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ kmdarling -:- Re:Talking of fascists... -:- Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 22:25:06 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Re: I think YOU'RE the confused one, Monmot -:- Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 15:02:27 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Re: I think YOU'RE the confused one, Monmot -:- Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 10:36:16 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Re: I think YOU'RE the confused one, Monmot -:- Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 10:47:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Sure -:- Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 11:15:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ kmdarling -:- Re: Sure -:- Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 22:33:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Re: Sure -:- Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 22:37:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Fascist Agya and the Double Standard -:- Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 00:33:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Yes, Joe, you're right and I would -:- Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 02:29:16 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Re: Yes, Joe, you're right and I would -:- Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 17:10:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Re: Yes, Joe, you're right and I would -:- Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 10:20:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Where You There? -:- Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 17:00:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Re: Where You There? -:- Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 21:15:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ bb -:- Re: Where You There? -:- Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 22:58:14 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Re: Where You There? -:- Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 23:07:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Like a sweet horror story -:- Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 10:51:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Re: Like a sweet horror story -:- Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 11:04:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- The only tie you have with your family is the one they cave you for Christmas? -:- Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 00:37:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Re: The only tie you have with your family is the one they cave you for Christmas? -:- Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 17:28:28 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bill,Time to squeege -:- your reading glasses and your third eye. -:- Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 21:29:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ bb -:- I disagree -:- Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 08:18:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Archives -:- Re: Bill P replaced Mishler?! -:- Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 11:00:51 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ kmdarling -:- Bill Patterson left mad -:- Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 23:14:06 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Re: Bill Patterson -:- Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 23:57:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Liz -:- Other Court Cases -:- Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 16:46:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Above message posted by Marianne, not Archives (nt) -:- Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 11:48:14 (EDT)

LdM -:- Re: Film - Holy Smoke -:- Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 12:57:10 (EDT)
__ Pricilla,Queen of the Catweasels -:- Re: Film - Holy Smoke[What the Hell,Ted Patrick will be pissed!] -:- Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 23:52:41 (EDT)
__ __ Ex-Premie Jr. -:- Nobody see this film! Agya! (nt) -:- Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 02:20:44 (EDT)
__ bad barney -:- Bad Lieutenant + Smokes = Holy Smoke -:- Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 16:35:21 (EDT)
__ Robyn -:- Re: Film - Holy Smoke -:- Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 14:33:15 (EDT)
__ __ CdM -:- Re: Film - Holy Smoke -:- Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 15:24:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ Robyn -:- Re: Film - Holy Smoke -:- Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 16:08:48 (EDT)

Ben Lurking -:- Complaint Save before posting? -:- Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 07:27:54 (EDT)
__ Robyn -:- Re: Complaint Save before posting? -:- Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 12:16:20 (EDT)
__ barney -:- yeah, I noticed that too -:- Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 15:57:28 (EDT)

barney -:- test - ignore thread -:- Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 06:51:44 (EDT)
__ barney -:- Let's turn the HTML back on, please, sir? -:- Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 07:01:46 (EDT)
__ __ Fly -:- Re: Let's turn the HTML back on, please, sir? -:- Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 16:55:26 (EDT)
__ barney -:- Re: test - ignore thread -:- Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 06:52:25 (EDT)

barney -:- test - ignore thread -:- Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 06:51:13 (EDT)

Michael -:- Onnig -:- Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 01:59:32 (EDT)
__ Robyn -:- Re: Onnig -:- Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 19:45:38 (EDT)

Jim -:- Humpty Dumpty -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 16:04:16 (EDT)
__ Know It All -:- Not a leaf moves without His grace & will EV expose Jagdeo as Glen promised? -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 18:02:36 (EDT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Re: Not a leaf moves without His grace & will EV expose Jagdeo as Glen promised? -:- Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 06:13:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ Susan -:- don't let him off the hook Nigel -:- Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 13:22:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- I don't intend to! -:- Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 07:00:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- Re: I don't intend to! -:- Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 00:33:52 (EDT)

JW -:- To Forum Administrator and Barney -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 14:17:19 (EDT)
__ Forum Administrator. -:- See Above Thread (nt) -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 12:25:57 (EDT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Re: To Forum Administrator and Barney -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 21:25:45 (EDT)
__ Roger eDrek -:- Re: To Forum Administrator and Barney -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 14:56:12 (EDT)
__ __ Monmot -:- Re: To Forum Administrator and Barney -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 21:43:53 (EDT)
__ __ Know It All -:- Barney... -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 15:00:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Repost Anth and EV's Glen Whittaker in regards to Jagdeo allegations -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 15:46:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ JW -:- Thanks (nt) -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 22:31:31 (EDT)

JW -:- Abuse At Denver Unity School? -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 14:10:17 (EDT)
__ Ben Luking -:- Re: Abuse At Denver Unity School? -:- Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 23:38:01 (EDT)
__ Fred -:- Re: Abuse At Denver Unity School? -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 14:41:10 (EDT)

AJW -:- To Marianne, Susan & Robyn -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 09:57:46 (EDT)

AJW -:- Shp and I are one. -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 07:04:22 (EDT)
__ Shpanth -:- Re: Shp and I are one. -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 08:43:07 (EDT)

Forum Administrator -:- Forum Problems and Changes -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 06:43:11 (EDT)
__ Brian -:- A Suggestion -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 13:12:18 (EDT)
__ gerry -:- Re: Forum Problems and Changes -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 12:52:09 (EDT)
__ __ CdM -:- Re: Forum Problems and Changes -:- Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 09:34:57 (EDT)
__ __ bb -:- Re: Forum Problems and Changes -:- Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 00:20:22 (EDT)
__ __ Katie -:- To Gerry, Forum Admin, and All -:- Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 18:53:14 (EDT)
__ __ Chameleon barney, the Evil™ Webmaster -:- do you real want to hurt me? -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 14:51:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ Fly -:- Re: problems -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 15:15:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ barney -:- don't be sniffing up my port -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 15:25:04 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Fly -:- Re: don't be sniffing up my port -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 15:38:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Fly -:- Got insomnia? -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 15:44:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ barney -:- naw, just on a secret mission -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 16:08:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Fly -:- Hey Dave FYI -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 15:41:16 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ barney -:- speaking of lost passwords (way off topic) -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 16:02:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- Re: speaking of lost passwords (way off topic) -:- Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 07:10:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Fly -:- Re: speaking of lost passwords (way off topic) -:- Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 16:49:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- Re: speaking of lost passwords (way off topic) -:- Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 02:17:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ barney -:- hot swapable in win95 (way off topic) -:- Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 04:20:03 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- Re: hot swapable in win95 (way off topic) -:- Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 20:29:00 (EDT)

Toby -:- a bit of success -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 05:00:02 (EDT)


Date: Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 11:57:29 (EDT)
From: Ubi
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Charity Begins @ Home ;-)
Message:
--
EIN: 23-7174539
Assets: $ 0
Income: $ 0
Ruling Year: 1971

From: www.guidestar.org

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Date: Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 05:45:06 (EDT)
From: Dr Octopus
Email: None
To: Ubi
Subject: Re: Charity Begins @ Home ;-)
Message:
The Investigations Division of the Charity Commission for England and Wales must be informed of this.

Their adress is

Harmsworth House
13-15 Bouverie Street
London
EC4Y 8DP

According to them, Charititable purposes are grouped under 4 main headings:

Relief of financial hardship (WHOSE?)

The advancement of education

The advancement of religion

&

'other charitable purposes for the benefit of the community'

The objects of Elan Vital are outlined in their trust deed as follows:

'To advance the education in the understanding and realisation of human potential through self-knowledge based upon the teachings of Prem Pal Singh Rawat k/a (known as) Maharaji'

The Charity Commission's regulations also state that:

'A CHARITY MUST HAVE EXCLUSIVELY CHARITABLE PURPOSES ...' (p.13 of their CC21 publication).

Deluge of mail expected? .... we shall see ....

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Date: Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 12:04:25 (EDT)
From: Ubi
Email: None
To: ALL
Subject: EV Georgia on My Mind
Message:
Search Results
Information current as of 9/17/99
Records 1 - 1 of 1 Total Records Found Click here for an explanation of terms
Top of Form 1
Bottom of Form 1

ELAN VITAL, INC. (FOREIGN NON-PROFIT) Officers
STE 1104, 20 ISLAND AVENUE MIAMI BEACH, FL 33139

Control # Status Filing Date Last AR Paid Jurisdiction
K844741 ACTIVE/COMPLIANCE 12/10/1998 05/03/1999 COLORADO

Registered Agent Agent Address Agent County
CORPORATION SERVICE COMPANY 4845 JIMMY CARTER BOULEVARD NORCROSS, GA 30093 GWINNETT

ELAN VITAL, INC.
Corporate Officers
Title Name Address
CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER LINDA S. GROSS P.O. BOX 241469 LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA 90024
CHIEF FINANCIAL OFFICER KATHIE THOMAS P.O. BOX 5 AGOURA HILLS, CALIFORNIA 91361
SECRETARY KATHIE THOMAS P.O. BOX 5 AGOURA HILLS, CALIFORNIA 91361

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Date: Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 12:31:48 (EDT)
From: Ubi
Email: None
To: All
Subject: SEVA Corporation of America - Aircraft
Message:
--
N-number : N104PR
Aircraft Serial Number : 11-027
Aircraft Manufacturer : STEMME GMBH & CO
Model : S10-VT
Aircraft Year :
Owner Name : SEVA CORP (DELAWARE)
Owner Address : C/0 EXECUTIVE INTERNATIONAL
: PO BOX 1437
THOUSAND OAKS, CA, 91358-0437
Registration Date : 07-Jun-1999
Airworthiness Certificate Type : Not Specified
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Date: Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 06:27:37 (EDT)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Ubi
Subject: Re: SEVA Corporation of America - Aircraft
Message:
Ubi,
SEVA Corporation... please note that 'seva' is sanskrit and means 'service'.
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Date: Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 18:42:50 (EDT)
From: Miss Led
Email: None
To: Ubi, Happy & All
Subject: Udo Erasmus
Message:
Dear Ubi,

Reading your name reminded me of Udo Erasmus. He is one of mirage's most fervent financial supporters in North America.

If you do a search on his name you will see how he makes all the money for mirage.

Silly Boy!

Miss Led

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Date: Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 15:27:13 (EDT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Ubi
Subject: Yeah, but where is that pesky Gulfstream
Message:
Ok, where is that pesky Gulfstream that Maharaji holds so near and dear?

I have yet to find it.

However, the attached link has a list of, hopefully all, registered Gulfstreams and their respective owners. I suspect that Maharaji's is in that list along with Microsoft Chairman and the World's Richest and most greedy man, Bill Gates. Both are saavy enough not to do things in their own name.

It looks like there might be public records somewhere that might have aircraft movement as evidenced by this report on the Newcastle airport (http://www.airnorth.demon.co.uk/electan.htm#contents)

Wouldn't it be great if we can track Maharaji's movements as he flees his problems and hides out in third world countries like Australia? You can run, but you can't hide!
Gulfstream N-Numbers

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Date: Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 19:43:25 (EDT)
From: Orlando
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: He does not own a Gulfstream, dear (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 09:40:37 (EDT)
From: Ubi
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: Re: He does not own a Gulfstream, dear (nt)
Message:
So who does own it Orlando? My hunch is a a 'Trust', 'Foundation', 'Leasing Company', or another entity writes that puppy off to Charity. Then again he does have that fine PAM Alvaro P with highly respected expertise in the area of 'Aviation' law. According to the Industry (Aviation) rags he's available for consultation on 'making the best' of aviation toys for the rich.

In poor man's language he'll help the wealthy stay wealthy with the government and IRS winkin and blinkin concerning any taxes, fees, etc.

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Date: Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 04:17:44 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: Then Prempal's not a wise investor!
Message:
If so, why not say WHO owns it ?

EV's a charity after all, and everyone should be able to see that no money gets to individuals!

Exactly like when Yoram Weisz is telling the premies to say Rawat's an inventor and gets his living from his inventions!
Do you actually think any premie believes this?
Of course not!
They lie, as they've been told.
They know, like I've always known when I was in EV, that there's a lot that's hidden.
WHY?
Don't you think it's a bit strange?
Here is Mr Rawat, claiming he has the highest possible standards, and who's hiding all his businesses.
When it's obvious he doesn't work (and never did) like anybody does.
He didn't have a single buck in the 70s, as he openly said in one of his satsang.
So now he's traveling the world in a G IV he doesn't own, but he's the only one to use it. This is not good management. It's extremely expensive to rent such an aircraft when you're its sole user!
EV's responsible should advise him to buy it.

Prempal, you're an idiot! You're the sole beneficiary of your G IV, and you don't even buy it? I thought you were a wise investor!

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Date: Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 21:31:32 (EDT)
From: A Premie
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: Quite right, Orlando
Message:
Quite right brother! Maharaji doesn't own the Gulfstream because it is lent to him by a sympathetic businessman who wishes to remain anonymous.

Maharaji doesn't own ANYTHING and lives entirely from charity from his appreciative devotees. His house, cars, boats etc are not his and indeed, he is entirely poverty striken and without the help of his loving devotees, he would be a homeless vagrant.

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Date: Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 18:47:59 (EDT)
From: Mis Led
Email: None
To: A Premie
Subject: Re: Quite right, Orlando
Message:
Ah, Dear Premie,

Then he is a renounciate after all. He just gets fat because he HAS to accept the donations of his loving premies, food or otherwise.

Now I understand it all makes sense.
qb2x059w?tpjofsdjkgpw = 4069?234-kjhdf08n92=[kg/?d';t9i!

Miss Led.

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Date: Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 04:39:56 (EDT)
From: An Ex-Premie Jr.
Email: None
To: A Premie
Subject: without his devotees, he would be a homeless vagrant - EXACTLY WHAT WE WANT!
Message:
YES! That's exactly where we want him, a homeless vagrant like he ought to be. Ride out of town on the donkey you came in on. And maybe he won't get too despondent and off himself.

How many premies and ex-premies have suffered physically, psychologically, sexually, financially and whatever else because of his freaking ego trip?

So, what do we know about that damn plane? Anybody got the N-Number? Which Corporation owns it? I cannot find it and I need it for my collection.

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Date: Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 20:23:33 (EDT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: Austrailia a third world country? Not
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 17:44:46 (EDT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: And more Mission Impossible
Message:
I've heard that radio scanners can pick up not only air traffic, but that they can pick up some air to ground phone communications from fancy corporate jets. So, for your Impossible Mission is to hang out at Maharaji's favorite southern california airport and listen in to any conversations Maharaji might be having with Newt Gingrich.

Of course, I do not condone nor suggest doing anything illegal. This is just a plot for a new TV series I'm working on.

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Date: Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 10:09:50 (EDT)
From: Forum Administrator
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Test (nt)
Message:
test
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Date: Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 13:18:24 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: All
Subject: EV Fund for Abuse Victims?
Message:
Everyone: It occurs to me that, if proven true, there may be many victims across the globe who have been sexually victimized by Jagdeo. There may also be other victims who were psychologically abused by the cult -- by mahatmas, initiators, general secretaries, M himself, power brokers in Denver, etc. Perhaps EV should set up a fund to compensate premies who were physically and/or psychologically abused as a result of their involvement in the cult. It's sort of like Dow Corning having to pay for defective breast implants, or cigarette companies compensating the states for health care for people who got addicted to tobacco, etc.

Setting up such a fund seems consistent with Glen Whitaker's letter, in which he states that EV would expose any sexual abuse that came to their knowledge. Exposing it is one step, but helping the victims to heal is another stage. Abi's been suffering through this for years. Money for therapy would probably be of great assistance to her, as it might to others. Setting up such a fund would be an act of good faith on the part of EV and Rawat.

Marianne

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Date: Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 15:00:35 (EDT)
From: Enough
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: EV Fund for Abuse Victims?
Message:
Hi Marianne,

I really like your idea but after I read it this A.M. something was bothering me and I just figured it out. DLM/EV should set up a fund alright but it needs to be administered by a 3rd party. We don't need them able to prey on yet another group of needy, vulnerable people.

No doubt this is what you intended but I just had to point it out. These last couple of weeks have really pointed out just how sleazy/slimey DLM/EV really is.

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Date: Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 14:45:11 (EDT)
From: Archive
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: EV Fund for Abuse Victims?
Message:
Seeing the words 'good faith' and 'rawat and ev'
in the same sentence crossed my eyes.

You have the right sentiments, I dont figure Glen
Whittiker has any power to do anything
but send the message upstream to the LA honchos.

Your question about Sally Reeder to archive,
She wrote that for the first issue of -Light Reading-.
Next up from the archives is Bill Pattersons first
interview after replaceing Bob Mishler.
It is revealing.

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Date: Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 14:58:44 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Archive
Subject: Bill P replaced Mishler?!
Message:
Archive: Bill P replaced Mishler? I've been out a long time and that is a nasty little fact that I did not learn til now. Bill P is still on my shit list. If you want to know why, read my Journey. What does he say?
Thanks for responding, Archive.

Marianne

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Date: Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 00:10:35 (EDT)
From: archives
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: Bill P replaced Mishler?!
Message:
I just reviewed your journey and not lessen your
feelings about BP, but the order for no one to go home
for christmas came straight from the Guru Maharaj Ji
himself. Mission bigwigs asked him and he said no.

It reminds me of Guru Maharaj Ji and Jim Hession in
miami during DECA and the 707 work.
Guru Maharaj ji would tell Jim that he wanted all total
dedication from the workers and got Jim to lay into
at least 2 guys about it. One guy worked at the hanger and
had a girlfriend, Lots of guys were pissed at Jim Hession
for telling the guy to leave his girlfriend and that
guru maharaj ji wanted total commitment.
Jim next laid into another guy who had AIDS but no one
knew what was his problem at the time. The guy was
real good looking and Jim told him he could leave because
he wasnt willing to surrender. The guy started walking
back towards the complex (or the beach) and Jim and
guru maharaj ji drove past him. guru maharaj ji asked
Jim why the guy was walking away and JIm told him that
he told the guy he had todedicate completely or leave.
guru maharaj ji said to him 'I didnt ask you to tell him
to leave'
So the guy was reinstated.
He wasted away and no one knew why. It was at the start of
the AIDS situation.
The guy told me a story about when he was picked for
knowledge. He had an invitation to go on a water skiing
weekend with his good friend and two girls one was a hot
blind date his freind had arranged. He thought he should
go to NY city and try to get knowledge instead and this was
a test.
You decide.

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Date: Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 11:32:34 (EDT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: archives
Subject: Re: Bill P replaced Mishler?!
Message:
Ironically, some PAMs went home that Christmas and when they returned, all M did was ask them if they had a good time. Nothing else, nada. No repercussions whatsoever. The situation with BP sadly reflects the tendency at that time by Gen'l Sec'tys/Community Coordinators around the country to (mis)interpret M's words in a most fascistic manner. This rampant tendency, together with M's failure to do anything about it, is the source of many of the Sad Tales in the Naked City.
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Date: Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 20:40:51 (EDT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Re: Bill P replaced Mishler?!
Message:
So obeying the lord is behaveing in a fascist manner?
Name ONE the Pams you are talking about.

How do you know this?
Unless you can name names, I doubt your contention.

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Date: Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 21:04:05 (EDT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: Re: Bill P replaced Mishler?!
Message:
Gotta love your pretzel logic. You're a perfect example of the misinterpretation about which I was speaking. I didn't say obeying the lord (this is up for debate BTW) was behaving in a fascistic manner, I said that the Gen'l Sec'tys (mis)interpreted what M said in a most fascistic manner. Time to squeegee your reading glasses and your third eye.

I could give you a name, but I don't post anyone's name without his/her permission, and I will not do it just to satisfy your prurient curiosity. This person told me first hand, not second or third hand. Yes, Direct Knowledge. Feel free to doubt away.

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Date: Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 09:42:51 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: I think YOU'RE the confused one, Monmot
Message:
First of all, you misused 'prurient' but that's okay. I won't even mention it.

I do think you're the confused one here. Maharaji orders everyone to not go home (which he did; I remember) and some PAMs supposedly call his bluff and he does nothing. I'm not saying that didn't happen. It wouldn't really surprise me at all. But you say:

'The situation with BP sadly reflects the tendency at that time by Gen'l Sec'tys/Community Coordinators around the country to (mis)interpret M's words in a most fascistic manner. This rampant tendency, together with M's failure to do anything about it, is the source of many of the Sad Tales in the Naked City.'

Where does this come from? Just because Maharaji was bluffing, let's say, it doesn't mean that his words lacked clear meaning.

I think you owe Bill an apology.

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Date: Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 10:11:45 (EDT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: I think YOU'RE the confused one, Monmot
Message:
No apologies given, and trust me, professor, I meant to use 'prurient,' plus I was around that Xmas also. My point was in support of Marianne's experience where Bill P. would not let her go home at Xmas time or otherwise she would be thrown out of the ashram. Her father just died, her mother was alone, and she lived 5 miles from home. Bill P. imposed this totalitarian restriction on Marianne with no thought or compassion (part of leaving no room for doubt). My main point, which I think both you and Bill would agree with (after all we're all exes here, aren't we), is that a big-time double standard existed. Those not close to M saw him as Lord, wanted to make no mistakes for fear of roasting in hell, and duly executed every whim of M with an iron glove, and those close to M obviously were able to see through and stand up to him and say 'no way, I'm going home.'
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Date: Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 23:08:31 (EDT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Re: I think YOU'RE the confused one, Monmot
Message:
Hi Monmot,
Your point about the pams being close enough to
see him as he was is a good one.
I thought of that today also. I was going to mention it
tonight but I'm glad you did.

But you know, a lot of premies near him for a long time
would not dare go against his wishes.
He ruled with an iron fist more and more until there were
no pams around that would squeak.
I'll bet the one or ones you are thinking of left
in 76. But of course that may not be the case.
Lots of folks had no where to go plus the guru jauggernaut
was a tough thing to walk away completely from
during those late seventies early eighties.
Even if they left, they probably had a hard time not
checking in to see where the heck it was going.

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Date: Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 23:14:39 (EDT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: Re: I think YOU'RE the confused one, Monmot
Message:
I wasn't a PAM, neither were most of my friends, and WE still checked it for a long time just in case... The person I know who was a PAM had a very difficult time pulling away, like a junkie trying to kick, no doubt.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 11:46:01 (EDT)
From: *>*...b
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: St. Monmot
Message:
Even worse Monmot, a junkie at least stands a chance
to walk away after a few days of rinseing out.
Tough to be that quick with the hooks that came with
the maharaj is lord trip.
I dont understand what it is about infatuation or love
or devotion that has such a grip.
Add that with all the eastern and other tie in's like
scriptures, and he really had us.
Luckily he is/was faulty enough to not have kept us all
for our whole lives. Which was certainly within his
power if he had played it right.
Sorry if I snapped before.
I know now that attitude can be under my control but
I fergit.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 12:51:37 (EDT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: *>*...b
Subject: Re: St. Monmot
Message:
Monmot, yes. Saint, no. (Unless you meant 'street.') :-) I've read a lot of junky novels, and at least ex-users don't harbor doubts about whether they made a mistake kicking. BTW, was about six feet from M when he received the keys to the Maserati (my one shot at PAMhood). A guy named 'Star' donated from his trust fund to pay for the car. No prob with the snap, just shows me how language, like using the word 'fascist,' can muddy/deflect issues.
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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 22:53:07 (EDT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Monmot blvd.
Message:
I think Monmot means-one who follows his own mind-
at least that it was put when m called professor
Tondon and some old mahatma in india monmot.
In 74
Are you still in Boston area?
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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 23:46:39 (EDT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: Re: Monmot blvd.
Message:
Monmot Blvd. reminds me of when Christopher Walken hosted Sat. Nite Live and did a skit called 'On The Boulevard of Broken Balls.' He was hilarious. No longer in Boston; now on the West Coast.
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Date: Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 22:25:06 (EDT)
From: kmdarling
Email: unlimited@aol.com
To: Monmot
Subject: Re:Talking of fascists...
Message:
Since you used the word fascist...this is the whole big huge philosophical question that everyone is always asking in philosophy class: Were the concentration camp guards responsible for their murderous crimes when they were just “following orders?” And do you know about that chilling psychological study in which subjects were told to inflict pain on other subjects as part of “scientific research” and they did, to an incredible degree (at least they believed they were, and they just “followed orders.”). This really rings true to me, because occasionally in my DLM career I was a CC or a Mahatma’s Aide (almost godlike) and I definitely passed on edicts that I understood were MJ’s wishes or “policy” that were tyrannical, unkind or closed to the real human in front of me at that moment––i.e. bureaucratic, the antithesis of “spiritual“ in my book. I never told anyone not to go home for Xmas, but I did once tell an ashram resident she couldn’t be in the ashram if she wore make-up (this was in Spain and no make-up was part of the ashram manual I had been given from above). I’m sorry, I’m sorry! At least the effect in that particular case was that the person walked out the door (and joined Yogananda’s ashram, as I recall, which was apparently more cosmetically friendly, and probably a better deal all around if an ashram was what you were shopping for). Although I was probably kinder than most, and eventually a minor advocate for ashram premies who weren’t getting proper healthcare after I left the shram, I definitely was part of the problem for a while, as most of us probably were, in some degree. Even if you never had an “important job,” the ascribing of authority to a master, and allowing this to
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Date: Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 15:02:27 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Re: I think YOU'RE the confused one, Monmot
Message:
I'm wondering. Maybe PAMs just had special privileges that the rank and file didn't, and maybe that's why they got to go home for Christmas. It wouldn't be the first time higher ups in an organization got perks that didn't apply to the peons they bossed around.
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Date: Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 10:36:16 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Re: I think YOU'RE the confused one, Monmot
Message:
-_____

My point, though, was that no one misinterpreted Maharaji by implementing his agya rigorously. Whether or not PAMs sometimes saw through and defied it doesn't matter. The point is that Maharaji intentionally set the wheels in motion to fuck us up. Burn the mind a bit, right?

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Date: Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 10:47:12 (EDT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: I think YOU'RE the confused one, Monmot
Message:
Yes, I agree absolutely, and I think that that was, and is, unforgivable. I handled finances and a small biz and was appalled at how the 'humble premie' got screwed on a regular basis. When I complained, I was told to 'meditate.' Ugh! I think we agree but language has gotten in the way.
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Date: Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 11:15:54 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Sure
Message:
Yeah, we're on the same page alright. Howdy.
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Date: Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 22:33:53 (EDT)
From: kmdarling
Email: unlimited@aol.com
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Sure
Message:
what’s a PAM? I feel a little vulnerable asking this, but I forgive myself completely.
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Date: Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 22:37:50 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: kmdarling
Subject: Re: Sure
Message:
Person Around Maharaji

and I'd forgive you myself but I don't think you left me any.

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Date: Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 00:33:21 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Fascist Agya and the Double Standard
Message:
I think it's more the case that many PAMS and DLM honchos CARRIED OUT Maharaji's commands in the most fascistic manner, not so much that they interpreted them in a fascistic manner. Usually, what Maharaji said, he said. It wasn't open to much interpretation. But the manner in which it was carried out in Maharaji's cult, often in a manner truly devoid of humanity, well, there was a choice when it came to that. And since there was a large group of very vulnerable cult members, subject to the whims of some rather sadistic people, they had victims on which to carry our their depraved actions in the name of the living lord.

I recall in 1979, Mahararji said he was 'pleased' that the ashram premies understood who their 'true family' was and when they didn't go to see their biological families for Christmas. And then he came on Christmas day in Miami and gave us 'satsang' and said that if we didn't have devotion to Guru Maharaj Ji, that we would go to hell. (I have a copy of this satsang for anyone who is interested.) He also said that 'the only tie you have to your family is the one they gave you for christmas.'

Now I don't think there is a 'fascistic' interpretation of that. It's pretty clear what he was saying. Something that he has never owned up to, corrected, or clarified in any way whatsoever.

I also agree, that Maharaji often gave dispensations to people in high positions from the commands that applied to everyone else. Shit, according to Michael Donner, Guru Maharaj Ji was smoking dope with Donner and others in the Kitteridge Building in Denver in the mid-70s, when not even a beer was allowed to the other ashram premies. Yes, there were, and are, lots of double standards in Maharaji's world.

And of course, none of the rules ever applied to HIM. All the while he was advocating the ashram rules, he was swilling alcohol, and smoking dope and cigarettes, behind the stage.

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Date: Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 02:29:16 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Yes, Joe, you're right and I would
Message:
Joe said (and what the fuck is this with the no HTML ??!!#$*!!):... then he came on Christmas day in Miami and gave us 'satsang' and said that if we didn't have devotion to Guru Maharaj Ji, that we would go to hell. (I have a copy of this satsang for anyone who is interested.)'

To which I reply: Joe, I'd love to see that again. Perhaps we should all read it. Would you please?

Thanks,

Jim

Joe,

Would you please dish this beauty up somehow? I'd love to see it again. I think we should ALL see it.

Thanks,

Jim

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Date: Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 17:10:40 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Yes, Joe, you're right and I would
Message:
The entire 'satsang' was published in the 'Divine Times'. I quoted it once before, but I'll pull it out and quote it again.
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Date: Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 10:20:08 (EDT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Yes, Joe, you're right and I would
Message:
Reading this mindsang could be interesting...painful to see how under the spell we all were. That was a miserable Christmas.
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Date: Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 17:00:26 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Where You There?
Message:
That was a miserable Christmas.

--

Yes, it was. One of the worst, although Christmas was always a drag in the cult. I can still remember sitting on that industrial carpet in the 'satsang hall' at DECA on Christmas and he showed up, was in a bad mood, a gave this really heavy satsang. Come of think of it, he usually seemed pissed off during that Miami period. So maybe he had a miserable Christmas too.

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Date: Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 21:15:41 (EDT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Re: Where You There?
Message:
I was at DECA, but only for four months. Couldn't stand Miami at that time (pre-Miami Vice and all the glitz and glamour). Only Wolfie's Deli and Dairy Bars: I'll have a bowl of sour cream, with a side of yogurt, and for dessert, sir, I'd like a lb. of cream cheese. The heat drove me crazy; I felt like I lost 100 points off my IQ whenever I stepped outside.
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Date: Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 22:58:14 (EDT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Re: Where You There?
Message:
My laugh made it on the audio of that event.
He said 'someday man may decide to go to the sun,
and execute a successful landing too.'
I figured he MUST be kidding but no one else laughed.
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Date: Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 23:07:44 (EDT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: Re: Where You There?
Message:
I just laughed out loud at the thought. Perhaps M should give it a crack. :-))
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Date: Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 10:51:55 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Like a sweet horror story
Message:
I think it's kind of fun of a morbid sort to put myself back in that spooky surrender-or-die mind set. Sometimes I've tried to get my friends to enjoy it with me but it never really works. Like Laurie, my girlfriend. She's smart, spent her own years in a hippie, spiritual commune (the Sunrise Family of all things) and has become something of a reluctant sideline 'cognicenta' of the Maharaji cult. But can she ever really know what it was like? Can anyone who wasn't there? No, I don't think so.

Who but a premie can understand just how priviledged, excited, committed and frightened of the mind we were way back when? No one, I'm afraid. No one.

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Date: Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 11:04:44 (EDT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Like a sweet horror story
Message:
Yes, you hit the nail on the head with 'surrender or die.' I did some serious psychotherapy when I left M, fortunately with a therapist who had been in a cult also (Yogi Bhajan--at least we weren't forced to marry someone we didn't know, and end up with Singh as a last name), and the psychological bottom line in separating from M/DLM was the fear that I'd die if I left. Of course, this crap's irrational, but such is life. I recently watched the docu 'Lord of the Universe' (even saw my exhausted self in it), and it is like a morbid picking of an emotional scab :->. I think this unconcsious fear of dying if you leave M is what drives the premies who post here to attack so vehemently.
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Date: Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 00:37:41 (EDT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: The only tie you have with your family is the one they cave you for Christmas?
Message:
It's not a cult ....It's not a cult.....It's not a cult.......

Did he get that line from the Myung Sung Moon? Jim Jones?

Maybe there ought to be a book of 'cute cult leader quips' they could share the material among themselves.

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Date: Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 17:28:28 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Re: The only tie you have with your family is the one they cave you for Christmas?
Message:
Yes, that was something I always remembered him saying. The entire cult was set up to break ties you had with your family, non-premie 'friends' and all the rest. Actually, if you did anything outside the cult, you had to act like it was some kind of mundane, awful burden.

I remember in 1980 when I was sent to be DLM coordinator in San Francisco after being in Miami, I was so miserable and depressed that I thought a lot about suicide. I never mentioned that to anyone because you were supposed to be happy as a premie, right? And I was diligently practicking knowledge, so you were supposed to be happy. So it was just my 'mind' that was doing that to me, right?

Anyhow, after being in Miami, there was so little to do in San Francisco, that I went out and got a job as an financial analyst in a big firm. Anyhow, it turned out I was good at it, and I soon had a staff of people working under me. Then David Smith came to town doing his inquisition. I remember he told me I 'too into my job' (I guess because I was good at it). It was so weird. Here was a guy who probably never had a job in his life, who was one of the most uptight, miserable people I ever met, putting me down for being successful (in the VERY limited sense that I was) in 'the world.' That was the mentality. ANYTHING outside of the cult, even your own family, was a threat to the total surrender and devotion you were supposed to have to Maharaji.

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Date: Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 21:29:38 (EDT)
From: Bill,Time to squeege
Email: from gerry
To: bb
Subject: your reading glasses and your third eye.
Message:
Ha LOL! He's gotcha there, Bill. I thought you must have misunderstood Monmot, too.

One good point is the double standard for PAMs and the rest of the org.

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Date: Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 08:18:44 (EDT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Bill,Time to squeege
Subject: I disagree
Message:
When the lord said dont go home for christmas,
that was the directive from god himself.
Ashram directors were very much required to follow the
directives of the lord.
Bill Patterson and others were obeying the lord and did
thier job. Which was to not go home and make sure the
premies knew that those in the ashram were instructed
clearly NOT to go home for christmas.
If they were not going to obey the lord, then clearly
they had a choice, ashram or move out.
That is not facism on the part of the directors.

JW explained the allowances made for pams and the
do as I say not what I do behaviour of the lord.

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Date: Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 11:00:51 (EDT)
From: Archives
Email: None
To: archives
Subject: Re: Bill P replaced Mishler?!
Message:
Archives: You are the second person who told me that GMJ ordered that no one go home for Christmas. I don't care -- my situation was truly unique (or should I say, my mother's situation was truly unique)and anyone with a heart would have recognized that. I sure didn't learn compassion by example at the lotus feet. I learned it by negative example -- how not to behave.

Also, thank you for agreeing about the creation of a fund for the abuse victims. I want to make it clear that this was my idea, not that of anyone else. Given the millions of dollars that DLM/EV and M have accumulated over the years, I believe it is totally appropriate for them to compensate anyone who has been victimized at the hands of the cult.

Rumor has it -- and I do not vouch for the truth of this information -- IT IS RUMOR -- that DLM/EV has previously been sued for similar activity. One way to check it out is to do a court search in federal and state courts throughout the US on the legal data bases and see what a search of DLM/EV generates. If any law enforcement agency is interested in following up on the Jagdeo information, they might do that kind of research.

Marianne

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Date: Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 23:14:06 (EDT)
From: kmdarling
Email: unlimited@aol.com
To: Archives
Subject: Bill Patterson left mad
Message:
Since people are talking about Bill Patterson, has anyone seen him recently? I have it on good advisement that he left MJ in a very upset state, as the Great Mirage really messed with his head in his final days. In my post above about “Talking of Fascists” I said some stuff about how I was part of that passing on of agya in my time, and speculated about how many of you other ex’s were (the post got cut off for some reason). Anyway, it’s been some years since I heard about Bill leaving, and he may by now be ready to come on line and talk about his experiences. If anyone has a phone number for him, I’d be happy to call him, as I slightly knew him.
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Date: Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 23:57:41 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: kmdarling
Subject: Re: Bill Patterson
Message:
If Bill apologized to me, I would forgive him.

Marianne

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Date: Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 16:46:49 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Archives
Subject: Other Court Cases
Message:
Hi Marianne,
This is interesting about D.L.M. or Elan Vital being sued before. I was telling Jim recently on the phone that I am in contact with the lawyer that worked on the case in the late seventies/early eighties when there was a court case in Delhi, India regarding Prem Negar Ashram and who should get it. I would also like to know more about the infamous jewel-smuggling case that mirage was accused of around the same time.

Are we still getting together 16th & 17th October? I have you on my calender.

Love,

Liz

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Date: Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 11:48:14 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Archives
Subject: Above message posted by Marianne, not Archives (nt)
Message:
A
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Date: Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 12:57:10 (EDT)
From: LdM
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Re: Film - Holy Smoke
Message:
While I was at work on Friday, I saw a review of a film called Holy Smoke which has just been previewed at the Venice Film Festival. It's directed and written by Jane Campion, who did The Piano amongst other things. The leads are Kate Winslet & Harvey Keitel and music is by Angelo Badalamenti (Twin Peaks).

'It is the tale about the deprogramming of a cult victim that just does not work. Ruth, an Australian girl played by Kate Winslet, travels to India and falls under the spell of charismatic guru Baba. Her family engage the services of top 'exit counsellor' PJ Waters (Harvey Keitel with a Village People moustache). Ruth is lured back home on a pretext and then banished to a shack in the outback where PJ sets about breaking her faith.' Quote from Screen International.

Release dates in UK: 15 October and USA: 8 October. It's called Holy Smoke. Sounds quite interesting. If you get to see it, let me know what you think.

Lee

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Date: Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 23:52:41 (EDT)
From: Pricilla,Queen of the Catweasels
Email: None
To: LdM
Subject: Re: Film - Holy Smoke[What the Hell,Ted Patrick will be pissed!]
Message:
I personally loved the film; but I've got news for you 'good ole boys'! It works completely AGAINST your agenda. Enjoy and think of us wild colonial boys as your brains snap!!!!
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Date: Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 02:20:44 (EDT)
From: Ex-Premie Jr.
Email: None
To: Pricilla,Queen of the Catweasels
Subject: Nobody see this film! Agya! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 16:35:21 (EDT)
From: bad barney
Email: None
To: LdM
Subject: Bad Lieutenant + Smokes = Holy Smoke
Message:
Now that's the movie I want to see where Harvey reprises his role as the Bad Lieutenant (BL) and the cult deprogrammer.
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Date: Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 14:33:15 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: LdM
Subject: Re: Film - Holy Smoke
Message:
Dear Lee,
That is so odd, Harvey Keitel was in an old movie that I was called Smoke, something with Smoke in the titel, there were 2 of them and they were about a smoke shope, cigs, pipes, ect. The first one especially was good but isn't it odd that he is in this one too even if it has nothing to do with smoking. Excuse me, I was up all night finishing a good book and just woke up! Missed most of a beautiful day too! :(
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 15:24:22 (EDT)
From: CdM
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Re: Film - Holy Smoke
Message:
Hi Robyn,

I agree Smoke was a good movie. Are you saying you were in it? Who did you play? I remember William Hurt was also good in that one.

It struck me that this 'Holy Smoke' film is about an Aussie cult victim who is severely stuck in it and can't be deprogrammed. They get it bad down there.

Sorry I didn't reply to your email, I havn't even been able to look in at F4 for a bit. It's the pressure of work at the moment.

Charlie

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Date: Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 16:08:48 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: CdM
Subject: Re: Film - Holy Smoke
Message:
Dear Charlie,
Yes, I guess now the secret is out, I am really Harvey Keitel!!!! :) Hahahaha! Pretty good spoof, eh?
Really though I went and re read my post and don't get why you thought I was in the movie! To funny! Yes, I'd forgotten William Hurt was in it, he was great on the set too, a real nice guy! Hahaha!
No problem about the email dear, I am not that observant. I don't even know when I emailed you! Not that I wouldn't love to hear from you or Lee anytime but I wasn't waiting for an email from you. I am much more spaced out than that! :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 07:27:54 (EDT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: Complaint Save before posting?
Message:
I just composed a lengthy reply online and failed to have my name in the 'author: field. When I hit the back button my 'reply' was gone. Is this part of the new security? This didn't used to happen
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Date: Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 12:16:20 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Ben Lurking
Subject: Re: Complaint Save before posting?
Message:
Hey Ben,
I do remember someone posting the same thing some time ago. I wonder if it has to do wuth your browser, I can't remember the consciencious when it was talked about before.
I just tried it, left my name out and my message was still here after I hit the back space key, using Netscape.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 15:57:28 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Ben Lurking
Subject: yeah, I noticed that too
Message:
Noticed that too, but just experimented and I did not lose the text.
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Date: Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 06:51:44 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: All
Subject: test - ignore thread
Message:
asdfasfd
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Date: Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 07:01:46 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: Let's turn the HTML back on, please, sir?
Message:
Wow! I just ran a port sniffer I fashioned out of an old 8-track player that long ago I boosted out of an 1969 Ford Thunderbird. It sounds a little clunky when changing tracks, but seems to do the job.

I suggest that we turn the HTML back on and see what happens. The duplicate stuff has happened before and it healed itself.

If and when it ever burps again we should preserve the evidence so the Paradise tech support can look at it.

Please, Mr. Webmaster, sir? I can't live without my HTML. I have so much that I need to say to Mr. Catweasel! (Not)

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Date: Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 16:55:26 (EDT)
From: Fly
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: Re: Let's turn the HTML back on, please, sir?
Message:
Barney's right, it has happened before, leastwise according to their 'sample' forum, which as well as the 'Dave lost his password' example has one about editor problems.

Now because I can't href the link, you'll have to cut & paste the following if you're interested. (I'll resist the temptation to try a perl redirect string!)

http://www.paradise-web.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=test&id=13947.867985173692

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Date: Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 06:52:25 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: Re: test - ignore thread
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 06:51:13 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: All
Subject: test - ignore thread
Message:
asdfasdfasdfasdf
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Date: Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 01:59:32 (EDT)
From: Michael
Email: masojai@aol.com
To: All
Subject: Onnig
Message:
Does anyone remember Onnig (Onning). At the astrodome?
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Date: Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 19:45:38 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Michael
Subject: Re: Onnig
Message:
Hi Michael,
I am not sure if this is a person's name or what. I got into the cult shortly after Millennium. I had hoped that I would find people I'd known from back then but I have been here for a year and a half and haven't found anyone. There are people who know people I know but not me. :( Anyway, good luck.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 16:04:16 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Humpty Dumpty
Message:
Now that this Jagdeo issue is finally coming alive, I ask myself just how damaging is it to the Hamster. Look at it first, from the perspective of a premie (i.e. cult apologist). Wouldn't it be tempting to try to somehow trade-off all the 'good' Rawat's done against this possible ... what could we call it? Oversight? A little negligence? Hell, maybe a short lapse in judgement. Maybe he really was just trying to love his dear Jagdeo a little too much (thanks Shp). I mean, how bad is all this anyway?

Well, here's where Rawat's got a problem. He put himself so goddamned high up there, what with being Lord of the Universe and everything, you know, Master of Perfection, Saviour of Mankind ... blah, blah, blah ... 'and if I am a father and I see my child crawling towards that fire, and I am REALLY a father ...blah ,blah, blah...' well, I'd say he's got a problem.

Maharaji's so much like Humpty Dumpty, don't you think? Big, fat poobah with thin, thin skin. And we all know what happened to Humpty. You know, Maharaji is NOT like Jimmy Swaggart et al. He's got no room to 'fall' and then redeem himself and then use the whole story as just one more reason for why everyone should support his ministry. Maharaji is/was the Lord. Can't fall. Too bad.

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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 18:02:36 (EDT)
From: Know It All
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Not a leaf moves without His grace & will EV expose Jagdeo as Glen promised?
Message:
Jim: I agree with you wholeheartedly. I guess we'll be seeing some vicious backpedaling from that old satsang where M used to tell us, 'Not a leaf moves without my grace.' That includes Jagdeo.

I am glad that Drek re-posted the EV correspondence with Anth. In the first letter, Glen tells Anth that if Jagdeo did engage in pedophilic behaviour, then EV agrees it should be 'exposed'. I bet Glen wishes he had never written that letter. Whatcha gonna do to 'expose' Jagdeo, EV, or is it just another cult lie?

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Date: Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 06:13:22 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Know It All
Subject: Re: Not a leaf moves without His grace & will EV expose Jagdeo as Glen promised?
Message:
I agree with both of you. It would be very easy to regard the whole Jagdeo affair as a peripheral issue (however horrific for his vicitms) - in the same way that paedophiles flourish in all manner of organisations without it necessarily being the leader's responsibility - provided, of course, the abuse had not come to the leader's attention. Even now, we have yet to hear from the person who was said to have told Maharaji, and I could think of plenty of reasons why they must not want to trouble the Living lord with that sort of squalid, unholy detail. So it is at least possible that Maharaji knew nothing about Jagdeo's activities back then (in spite of his being all-knowing, heh?)

But we are now in the situation where the information is out - and in spades. Now, not twenty years ago, is the moment when we can really discover what Maharaji is made of. Is he man enough to deal with this issue in a prompt and responsible manner? And I mean do it without hiding behind EV spokespeople.

He was unquestionably the man in charge of DLM for the latter part of the 70's (after the family split and before EV became the front organisation). So he still bears a responsibility for the behaviour of those in his service at the time, and to at least attempt to make some kind of public statement cw. apologies and reparation to the victims of the abuse.

Time to come down off that holy cloud, Mr Rawat. You have a serious problem in the real world to deal with - and a lot of people (yes, premies too) who are waiting to hear what you have to say about all this.

And do leaves sometimes move without your grace, after all?

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Date: Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 13:22:10 (EDT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: don't let him off the hook Nigel
Message:
Nigel, They did tell Rawat. Judy Osborne unwittingly proved it to me. Jerry posted about this

'So, the question becomes did they really tell Maharaji?

When Judy returned to Susan, she said that Maharaji already knew about it. But...

SUSAN NEVER TOLD JUDY THAT SHE HAD ALSO TOLD RANDY!

If Judy was lying about telling Maharaji, why didn't she just say 'yeah, I told him.' Why would
she elaborate her lie by saying Maharaji already knew about it? That's a strange way to lie,
wouldn't you say? So, how could Judy know that Maharaji already knew unless he, himself,
told her that he did? '

Nigel, there is just no other explanation why Judy would have told me Rawat had already heard about what happened to me. I did not tell her I had ever told anyone.

If the Guru were to do some sort of Mea Culpa but pretend he never knew it would be a BIG FAT LIE. Not an insignigant omission. He was the only one, as our cult leader, who could have stopped this without leaving the cult. He knew, he could have stopped it, he didn't. I would be outraged if he were to show compassion now without admitting he knew. That would be the most insulting thing of all.

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Date: Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 07:00:38 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Susan
Subject: I don't intend to!
Message:
Hi Susan,

I believe you absolutely - and it looks to me, from all that has been reported here, that Humpty certainly DID turn a blind eye to what Jagdeo was doing with the premie kids. I realise I might not have caught every post about this, and Judy Osborne's story does seem to confirm that M definitely knew.

In my post I was really thinking about what the public will or will not come to believe in the light of available evidence. A kind of 'worst case scenario' from the victims' point of view - what might or might or not be established in the eyes of the law. Will those who passed the information tell all they knew? - or suffer from selective memory, still hoping to keep M's nose clean?

(Obviously I don't know any of the people concerned, but I was also wondering whether M might have been given a very sanitised, watered-down version of things.)

And my main point was that even here, if crucial witnesses gave a revisionist account that made it hard to prove that M had been adequately briefed about the abuse, just by virtue of Rawat's having absolute authority of DLM (before the establishment of EV, which made his control less obvious), he would still be ultimately responsible for what went on in his movement at the time.

I see what you are saying that M is the only person who could have stopped the abuse, and I don't think anyone could argue otherwise. That is the sickest aspect of the whole cult culture. You cannot take absolute authority over your devotees' lives without also assuming absolute responsibilty for them.

I am with you all the way on this, Susan, and I really wasn't trying to let M off the hook, believe me.

All best,
Nigel

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Date: Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 00:33:52 (EDT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: I don't intend to!
Message:
Thanks Nigel. Your posts are always great. I am really sensitive on that subject especially after the Glen Whitaker letter. I am probably sensitive about it because I thought at the time the solution was to tell the guru not the police. I will always regret that.
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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 14:17:19 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: All
Subject: To Forum Administrator and Barney
Message:
I went to the House of Drek and re-read the letters exchanged between Anth and Glenn Whittaker. I was wondering if you guys could re-post them here as they are a little hard to find. It is chilling to read Glen's letters in light of what we have heard from Abi and Susan. It really exemplifies the lack of ethics that exist in that cult. It's also great to read Anth's excellent replies to Glen.
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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 12:25:57 (EDT)
From: Forum Administrator.
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: See Above Thread (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 21:25:45 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Re: To Forum Administrator and Barney
Message:
All the letters about the child abuse are on my Truth About Maharaji site in the Abuse section which is easily reached from the main page.

There is a link to the Truth site at the top of The ANYTHING GOES Forum.
The ANYTHING GOES Forum

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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 14:56:12 (EDT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Re: To Forum Administrator and Barney
Message:
Do you mean repost them here on the Forum or add them to ex-premie.org?

The letters and other material desperately need their own section somewhere. I'm not sure if they belong on the House of Maharaji Drek as the tone of Drek is rather shitty and this material deserves more. I will create a section for them, but will leave it up to the webmaster of ex-premie.org to have an exclusive on the material. Same goes for Jean-Michel.

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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 21:43:53 (EDT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Re: To Forum Administrator and Barney
Message:
Perhaps you could create an 'Uber-Drek' site.
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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 15:00:09 (EDT)
From: Know It All
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Barney...
Message:
Barney: I think Joe means you should re-post it on F4 so that people can read it in the context of Abi's and Susan's revelations. And if he doesn't mean that, I am asking you to do it, ok?

KIA

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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 15:46:29 (EDT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Know It All
Subject: Repost Anth and EV's Glen Whittaker in regards to Jagdeo allegations
Message:
Hi,

I had some private correspondance with Glen Whittaker, organiser of Elan Vital in the UK, about Mahatma Jagdeo's paedophile activities, involving children who were in my care, as a schoolteacher, some years ago.

This correspondance came into the public arena with the first letter from Elan Vital, retyped below.

Elan Vital seem extremely paranoid about the attention being given to this matter on the forum. Jagdeo has been reported to the Police, and the British press have been interested in the story for some weeks, increasing their fears that this matter may somehow reflect on the cult and its master.

The two letters from Elan Vital, and my reply to the first letter, have already been published on the forum, but I thought I'd put all four up together, so they can be read in context.

Anth the Archivist

FIRST LETTER FROM ELAN VITAL

26 August 1999

Dear Anth,

I’ve noticed that you’ve made allegations about Mahatma Jagdeo, on the ex-premie.org website. These allegations are that he was involved in paedophilic activities.

You will recall that when you raised the matter with me privately in the early part of the year, my response was that I knew of no evidence to substantiate the claim or even to suspect that it was true. I am of course concerned that the allegations and your strength of belief being such that you have made this allegation publicly. As a result of this, I have conducted some enquiry but can find no evidence to substantiate the allegation, including any record of any contemporaneous or later complaint made by the alleged victim.

Allegations of this nature are of course extremely damaging. If untrue, they may destroy the life and reputation of an old man and of course may also cause damage to any victims of the alleged acts who might rather put the matter behind them or have it approached more discretely.

If however the allegations are true we would of course deplore any such activity and agree they should be exposed. If you have any further information which would assist an inquiry let me have that information as we would wish to pursue the matter with appropriate discretion as so as to cause least further distress to the alleged victim.

I should make it absolutely clear that Elan Vital was not aware of the allegations until you raised them recently, which raises the question of why you waited so may years before making them, and did not and would not approve of or condone such appalling behaviour.

Please take care that any publication on the internet or implication that Elan Vital or Maharaji knew of, approved of or condoned any such paedophile behaviour would be false and very damaging. We would have no option but to take legal advice.

Yours sincerely,

Glen Whittaker.

MY REPLY

Hi Glen,

In response to your letter of 26th August, 99, I did indeed make allegations on the ex-premie website, last year, on November 1st, in my Journey, based on communication with a parent and ex pupil of Unity School, earlier that year. I’m sure you remember when my story appeared on the Internet, as you wrote to me about it soon afterwards. (I’m not sure if by reminding you of this, you’ll have to take legal advice, but what the hell.)

In your letter you mentioned that you conducted some enquiry. I’d be interested to know what form this took. You knew that the alleged offence took place at Unity School 74/75, as this information was in what I’d published in November. Did you ask anyone who was at Unity School at that time about what happened? If so, who? Both Dot and I were there, why didn’t you ask either of us? It doesn’t sound like a very thorough enquiry to me Glen. Do you even know the names of his ‘alleged’ victims.(there is more than one).

You say that allegations of this nature are extremely damaging. They are only damaging if they are untrue. Sexual abuse of young children is extremely damaging, and allegations of such acts, if true, are the first step in healing the damage done.

You also say if the allegations are untrue, they may destroy the life and reputation of an old man and may cause damage to any victims who might rather put the matter behind them or have it approached more discreetly. Surely Glen, if the allegations are untrue, how can ‘not putting the matter behind them’ cause distress, if nothing actually happened.

I do have further information that will assist an enquiry Glen. There are reports on the Ex-premie website of offences commited by Jagdeo in the United States, in the Journey’s section, in the Journey by Gs mom. You should read it.

More detailed information about the crimes and the victims have been given to the Police, who’ve probably contacted you by now.

I’ve been in close communication with both victims, at every stage since this affair floated to the surface of the pool. I can assure you that they are both extremely glad that things have finally been taken seriously and been brought out into the open.

You say that Elan Vital wasn’t aware of these ‘alleged offences’ until recently, and then hint at legal action if I disagree. If you read G’s mom’s Journey, on Ex-Premie.org you’ll see she told two instructors, both close to Maharaji, who have both since been named on the Internet. The instructors were Randy Prowdy and Judy Osbourne, both of whom I know, respect and like. I’m quite sure they would have passed the information on.

You say you’d like to pursue the matter, you could start by asking Randy and Judy what happened, who they told and what the response was. You could also make an announcement through your organisation, worldwide, that any possible victims, or parents of children may have been sexually abused by Mahatma Jagdeo should contact you. You could then pass this information to the police.

The reason I did nothing for 25 years Glen, was because I didn’t know about it until last year. As you’ve noticed, I’ve now done something.

So, I guess you’d better go and get some legal advice.

Anth the Whistle Blower

SECOND LETTER FROM ELAN VITAL

5th September 1999

Dear Anth,

Thank you for your response. Although you did not, as I requested, provide information on the name(s) of the alleged victims, or any details of the alleged offences, your news that any information is now in the hands of the police is very welcome. If we can ssist them in any way we shall be happy to do so, ans it would help to know details of whom the allegation has been reported to. On our part, we are also seeking advice from the relevant authorities in the field to ensure appropriate actions are taken.

I assure you Anth, we have researched extensively by asking people in this organisation and in the American Elan Vital about these allegations, but so far no-one, including people you mention, has any recollection of them. This is not to suggest that the alleged incidents did not take place.

Despite what you may bekieve, the sole aim of Elan Vital is to promote an inner experience of peace and an enrichment of the experience of what it means to be alive.

I would like to re-iterate that your allegations are as upsetting to us as they are to you and should the alleged victim in the case you speak of come forward we will offer her all the help we can in co-operation with the relevant authorities.

Yours, sincerely,

Glen Whittaker.

AND MY REPLY, SENT LAST WEEK.

Hi Glen,

Looks like you’ve been to see your lawyers. You requested the names of Jagdeo’s victims. I didn’t give them to you and I have no intention of giving them to you. I’ll try to explain why.

Imagine, as an 8 or 9 year old child, you are taken to live in a place run by a religious cult. Or maybe you’re a 14-year-old teenager who’s become interested in meditation or something, and you start going along to cult meetings. Whatever, you end up being sexually abused by a full time representative of that cult.

Imagine, in the case of ‘g-mom’, after you’ve been abused, you report it to another full time cult official (‘mahatma’ or ‘instructor’ or ‘initiator’, whatever the current jargon was) in the case of ‘g-mom’, this person was from her home town and knew her personally. You ask him to tell your master. You meet him later and he tells you the master was informed. The instructor who assaulted you is still at large, so you tell another instructor. She gets back to you a week later, and tells you, ‘Yes, the master knew already and was glad that this was not a new episode’. Or maybe in the case of the 9 year old, her parent tells yet another ‘mahatma’, and aquaintance of the master, and nothing ever gets back to them either.

The years roll by. November 98, I publish allegations about Jagdeo on the Internet. (I wasn’t the first.) August 99, Jagdeo is reported to the police, the press get interested. , Lo and behold, the two ‘instructors’ ‘can’t remember’ anything that they were told, can’t remember telling Maharaji, and can’t remember telling the victim what they’d done. Not only that, the cult are suddenly concerned and want the victim’s names.

(And didn’t you or Heather tell the ‘Express’ that Elan Vital was nothing to do with Divine Light Mission?)

Forget it Glen. They’ve lost faith in you. Your main aim seems to be keeping your master out of this. Their experience tells them the cult cares little for the victims of child abuse.

If you’re really concerned about sorting this mess out, and, as you say, assisting the Police, you could start by telling them where Jagdeo is living. Is he still in the ashram in India? Is he still a Mahatma? Is he still a ‘premie’. Does he still do special ‘children’s knowledge sessions’ ? Does he still have access to children.? Do the Police in India know about his pedophiliac activities?

Your third paragraph is interesting Glen. You say, ‘The sole aim of Elan Vital is to promote an inner experience of peace and an enrichment of the experience of what it means to be alive.’ Hmmmmn, haven’t you missed a bit out there, about the teachings of Maharaji or something, that justifies the personality cult that surrounds him? He’s the one who gives you this ‘experience of what it means to be alive’, and ‘inner peace’, through his teachings, right?

You say in your last paragraph, how disturbing the allegations are, and if the ‘alleged victim’ comes forward (there are serious allegations of offences against at least three young girls), you will offer her all the help you can, with the co-operation with the authorities. I’ve already explained why they don’t want to talk to you, but are happy to talk to the Police.

Whether Maharaji knew about Jagdeo’s pedophilic activities or not was never an issue with me. You’re the one who brought that up.

I’m not ‘Anti Maharaji’. Now I no longer worship him, as a fellow human being I have sympathy for his plight and I hope he sorts himself out one day. He’s a cult victim too, and I hold no personal animosity towards him whatsoever.

Yours truly,
Anth the Unruly

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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 22:31:31 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Thanks (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 14:10:17 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Abuse At Denver Unity School?
Message:
After reading Abi's story and the fact that she and other children were sexually abused, repeatedly, by Jagdeo at the Unity School in the UK, it made me wonder about the Unity School in Denver, which existed in the 70s and I don't know how far into the 80s. I would just like to ask if anyone connected with the Denver school recalls Jagdeo there at any time, especially if he was conducting any kind of interaction with the children.

It appears from what we have heard from Susan and Abi that Jagdeo that a modus operandi. He had the position of spiritual authority so parents and children would trust him. He was a revered figure in a cult in which the cult leader commanded his followers to never doubt. It was a perfect situation for a sexual predator like Jagdeo to operate, and it seems like he abused children both individually and in groups, maybe starting with group childrens' 'knowledge sessions' or 'game playing.'

So, I think it's important for all premie and ex-premie parents who had children during the time they were in the cult to talk to their children. Also, I think any parent (as well as teachers) who had children in either the Unity School in England or the one in Denver to try to recall if Jagdeo was ever there. This could be very important to the well-being of those kids, who are now adults.

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Date: Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 23:38:01 (EDT)
From: Ben Luking
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Re: Abuse At Denver Unity School?
Message:
I believe Brian McDermott was in charge of the Denver Unity School in the mid-late seventies. Carol Bourne was an ashram premie who still posts over on EL. She had a duaghter Julie who ought to be in her mid 20' early thirties. I think she went toU nity cool. As she is still praticing ne of the premies should contact her. She is listed on the internet white pages. She lives in Malibu
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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 14:41:10 (EDT)
From: Fred
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Re: Abuse At Denver Unity School?
Message:
Thanks JW,

Best Wishes,

Fred

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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 09:57:46 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: All
Subject: To Marianne, Susan & Robyn
Message:
Please phone Anth.
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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 07:04:22 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Shp and I are one.
Message:
Hi,

It would appear that shp and AJW have become one in cyber space, due to a cosmic computer error. Many of my posts appear in the message list under SHP's handle. To tell which post is from whom, open it and look in the header.

I'm informed that, like a bad haircut, the mistake will grow out as the forum moves on. I've always got on fine with Sandy, and don't have a problem being merged with him for a while- although I'll have to get back to my wife soon.

Anth the shp.

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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 08:43:07 (EDT)
From: Shpanth
Email: None
To: anthshp
Subject: Re: Shp and I are one.
Message:
Dear Anthshp,

Good morning. Please pass the tea. And please get your elbow out of my cereal.

Your buddy,
Shpanth

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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 06:43:11 (EDT)
From: Forum Administrator
Email: forumfour@hotmail.com
To: All
Subject: Forum Problems and Changes
Message:
As some of you have realised, we've had some problems with the forum software over the past 24 hours.

These problems came to light when messages in 'Abi's Story' began to appear in two places on the forum simultaneously. Deleting the duplicates also deleted the original messages too.

We salvaged as much as we could from the thread and restarted it higher up. We also tried to retrieve the lost posts and replace them in the original thread. This caused even more disruption. When trying to replace one of shp's posts, his name began to appear at the top of other posts too.

Today I deleted the original thread, where the problems first appeared. I apologise for the messages that got lost, but the long posts in the thread, from JW, Susan, AJW and Marianne, have all made it up to the second thread.

We believe that this problem, and a couple of previous problems, including the one brought to our attention by 'Fly', have been caused by messy java script being inserted into some posts. This has also caused problems in archiving.

As a result of this, we've take the administrative option of not allowing posts containing HTML or java code on the forum. We understand that this takes away the chance of inserting pictures or formatted text, but because of the present problems, we feel we have no choice.

We apologise sincerely for the disruption and mess, and it's most unfortunate that it occured in one of the most dynamic threads that's been posted recently.

We also apologise again for the messages that were lost when the troublesome thread was removed.

The thread will be reconstructed with the correct names, and where possible, with the missing posts and offered to 'The House of Drek' for archiving.

We are archiving the whole forum every week.

Thank you

Forum Administrator.

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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 13:12:18 (EDT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Forum Administrator
Subject: A Suggestion
Message:
Regarding problems with Javascript:
While Paradise doesn't allow you to directly prevent <SCRIPT> tags, it does have function to allow you to check the contents of the post for profanity. If enabled, you have to input the 'profane' words that get screened.

You might consider configuring the profanity checker to burp when it finds <SCRIPT' in the posted message (leaving out the closing angle bracket). The user would get a bizarre message telling them that their post is profane, but they'd deserve whatever confusion resulted for having tried to insert that garbage anyway. If it works, you could lift the block on unoffensive HTML.

You might also be able to block <IMAGE> tags that way...

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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 12:52:09 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Forum Administrator
Subject: Re: Forum Problems and Changes
Message:
I mentioned this weird shit at the bottom of the message list over a week ago when I posted a thread entitled 'We gotta problem.' Did anyone listen or check it out? Noooooo, all I got was smart ass remarks from Sir Dave and the chameleon Barney. Like I was paranoid or a fucking idiot or something.

I told you so!!!!!!!!

Gerry the ignored, ridiculed, but vindicated.

PS this sucks we can no longer use code.

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Date: Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 09:34:57 (EDT)
From: CdM
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: Forum Problems and Changes
Message:
Hi Gerry,

I remember your post. I recall the problem was with Phreak. Do you think that Phreak has now become Patience's Time?

Chas

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Date: Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 00:20:22 (EDT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: Forum Problems and Changes
Message:
I listen to you Gerry.
On the topic of tech issues, I am no help.
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Date: Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 18:53:14 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: mishkat@gateway.net
To: gerry
Subject: To Gerry, Forum Admin, and All
Message:
Dear Gerry, Forum Admin., and all -
In my most humble opinion, I think the problems with the message lists and re-occuring messages lie with Paradise (this opinion was formulated from over two years of dealing with Paradise...). Also, I do think Brian's idea about stopping JavaScript is a good one (I am not sure how the profanity checker works here, having never employed it - although I have checked it out - but I think it would either scramble or not post any messages where someone attempts to use JavaScript.)

Also, as far as Gerry being ignored and ridiculed, I think this is outrageous. Gerry very kindly offered to take the forum over at an extremely volatile time, was willing to reveal his identity at the request of people who felt uncomfortable posting on a forum with an anonymous webmaster, and did a GREAT job as forum administrator, despite constant attacks and conflicts. Both Brian and I appreciated his willingness to take over Forum IV VERY MUCH - thank you, Gerry!

I haven't been reading the forum much for a while, so I don't know if Gerry ever got commended for the excellent job that he did. I had worked on a forum with Gerry before, and I did, and still do, consider Gerry to be an very responsible person who was basically forced out of the job by a bunch of whiners (sorry, folks, but that's how I see it.) I can definitely understand why the current Forum Administrator(s) choose to remain anonymous - I would, too, after seeing what happened to Gerry and to Brian.

Many of the posts that are being made on the forum right now are very important (I'm specifically referring to Susan's, Abi's and Anthony's recent post, but there are other important posts as well). It's hard for me to understand why people would quibble about personal conflicts at a time when the forum is both helping people AND revealing very unpleasant truths about Maharaji's world.

To quote that old saying: 'If we don't hang together, then we will all hang separately'. I think this is especially true right now, and I don't really know what else to say, except that we're all human and fallible here, but we do have a common bond, and I think it's very important to recognize that.

Sincerely,
Katie

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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 14:51:54 (EDT)
From: Chameleon barney, the Evil™ Webmaster
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: do you real want to hurt me?
Message:
What would this thread be without my input? [Insert nasty Active-X control here with evil laugh]

I seriously doubt that the problems are a result of embedded HTML or even Java Scripting attempts within a message because the Paradise server receives the post purely as a string. Such code would not execute on the server.

Yes, the bad code could execute on the client, but I'm not sure how it could harm the Form Post code.

I have seen the duplicate posting before during a salvo with Shp shortly after his return. My posts were appearing in two threads (oh, shit saying this incriminates me - when will I ever learn?) Anyway, the problem went away after a bolt of lightning hit my house.

Seriously, I'd suspect it to be a Paradise problem and we should contact them with the symptoms to get an explanation. Paradise, I believe, is in a database. Databases rely on indexes which are built from data from fields and what not. Index corruption can occur and the indexes need to be rebuilt. Some kind of Paradise hiccup. That's my guess.

Also, I believe the profanity filter just garbles profanity into something else. I think it would be fun to employ on certain often used words.

And as long as Sir Dave was brought into the conversation I think that we should allow him in on this thread as a guest webmaster even if he did abandon ship and let it run derelict into deep space. I would, of course, never do that!

Ok, guys see you at the Evil Webmaster Booth #393 at the next Comdex.

Gerry the ignored, ridiculed, but vindicated.

Gerry, I forgot what your We got a problem post was about. And you should know that certified vindication only happens on Anything Goes.

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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 15:15:47 (EDT)
From: Fly
Email: None
To: Chameleon barney, the Evil™ Webmaster
Subject: Re: problems
Message:
While you're onto Paradise, you might ask them if they have Port Sniffer Detection set up.

For why, read my post on 'AG' labeled 'Re: Hate to labor the point'

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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 15:25:04 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Fly
Subject: don't be sniffing up my port
Message:
uh, what's that do in terms of IP addresses? Isn't that more of a seeing who is trying to hack into your site tool?
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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 15:38:54 (EDT)
From: Fly
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: Re: don't be sniffing up my port
Message:
Exactly my point. Let's not be naiive here.
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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 15:44:24 (EDT)
From: Fly
Email: None
To: Barney
Subject: Got insomnia?
Message:
G'Day Barney, isn't it like 5am over there?

Oh, you must be geting up to sing Arti! (just kidding)

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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 16:08:33 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Fly
Subject: naw, just on a secret mission
Message:
I'm in the Air Force and am on duty in a special recon plane where we're up for days, getting refueled mid-air. We have downlinks to dishes on earth, but as we fly through time zones the time jumps around.

barney the keeping an eye on the planet and seeing a 900 foot Jesus in the sky

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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 15:41:16 (EDT)
From: Fly
Email: None
To: Dave
Subject: Hey Dave FYI
Message:
Looks like Paradise is making an example of you in their demo pages!

HTML is blocked, so you'll have to cut/paste, go to:

http://www.paradise-web.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=test&id=10673.884756126966

Thought you might like to know. There's a bunch of other very familiar posts in there too!

Fly

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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 16:02:46 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Fly
Subject: speaking of lost passwords (way off topic)
Message:
hey, I used to work at a medium sized software outfit and lost the pw to one of my NT servers. Well, we called our tech support people and they knew the secret but wouldn't tell us. So, we called a hardware guy over by and he told us the secret of clearing the PW. Of course, you need physical access to the machine. And it is easier if the drive is not configured as NTFS.

Without clearing the PW we were looking at formating the drive and reinstalling of the OS.

Yes, Microsoft NT, the invincible for mission critical applications.

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Date: Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 07:10:25 (EDT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: Re: speaking of lost passwords (way off topic)
Message:
Which is why servers come with locks on them. The only absolutely secure computer is one that is off. Some people password the bios and then don't allow a floppy or cd to boot.
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Date: Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 16:49:52 (EDT)
From: Fly
Email: None
To: Ben Lurking
Subject: Re: speaking of lost passwords (way off topic)
Message:
***The only absolutely secure computer is one that is off.**

Unless they take the cover off and steal your HDD!

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Date: Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 02:17:54 (EDT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Fly
Subject: Re: speaking of lost passwords (way off topic)
Message:
Mine are hot swapable and raid but behind the 'lock'
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Date: Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 04:20:03 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Ben Lurking
Subject: hot swapable in win95 (way off topic)
Message:
Ben,

I know that you are the perfect master of techno, but I must be wrong to assume you're running hot swapables and raid on win95?

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Date: Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 20:29:00 (EDT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: Re: hot swapable in win95 (way off topic)
Message:
Unix on intel 'SCO', here at the office, my ISP as a server for our business that we own and it is Linux. Clients are win95. You can do raid on NT and maybe 95 but I don't know what the purpose would be. I never looked into it.
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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 05:00:02 (EDT)
From: Toby
Email: None
To: All
Subject: a bit of success
Message:
as we could see m had stopped all announced
programs and is goiung to have 'occasionlly'
events.
This might be of the intense handling from our side with the Manchester program.
M. to my opinion is so fucking afraid of the press and the public that he was shocked by the sudden interest.

More concentration and more revelation of what is
happening and has happened might bring the bastard down.

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