Forum IV: The Ex-Premie Forum
Archive: 5
From: Tues, Sep 21, 1999 To: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 Page: 3 Of: 5


Sir Dave -:- A terrible outrage -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 01:39:58 (EDT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Under the shock -:- Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 08:44:56 (EDT)
__ __ Roger (not Rober) eDrek -:- A permanent place for this information -:- Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 16:24:00 (EDT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Re: A permanent place for this information -:- Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 22:18:43 (EDT)
__ __ Jw -:- Yes, JM -:- Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 15:55:13 (EDT)
__ JW -:- Maharaji's Culpability -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 14:42:45 (EDT)
__ __ Jethro -:- Re: Maharaji's Culpability -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 15:33:38 (EDT)
__ __ Liz -:- Re: Maharaji's Culpability -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 14:52:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ bb -:- Re: Maharaji's Culpability -:- Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 00:00:09 (EDT)
__ David -:- Re: A terrible outrage -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 09:45:58 (EDT)
__ __ Jethro -:- Re: A terrible outrage -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 12:22:55 (EDT)
__ __ Susan Gmom -:- I am reposting what I wrote about why Rawat did know -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 10:49:27 (EDT)
__ __ __ Shp -:- questions -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 11:12:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Grace -:- Re: questions -:- Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 08:54:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Re: questions -:- Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 09:59:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- Good devotee/Good parent? -:- Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 13:04:31 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Suffer the little children to come... -:- Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 15:32:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Re: Suffer the little children to come... -:- Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 23:10:58 (EDT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- Even more contemptable -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 10:20:41 (EDT)

Joey -:- From the Chief of Army Chaplains -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 01:02:25 (EDT)
__ Via -:- Re: From the Chief of Army Chaplains -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 13:18:06 (EDT)
__ *>*...the power of a hat -:- the power of a song -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 01:50:58 (EDT)
__ Susan -:- this part appears to be true -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 01:11:39 (EDT)
__ __ Joey -:- Re: this part appears to be true -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 01:58:43 (EDT)

Shp -:- Forum Admin: My name on posts... -:- Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 22:20:06 (EDT)
__ Forum Adminstrator -:- Re: Shp's name on posts... -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 06:49:32 (EDT)
__ __ Shp -:- Re: Shp's name on posts... -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 10:40:10 (EDT)
__ Shp -:- More on wrong name posting -:- Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 23:59:21 (EDT)
__ A Yank -:- Re: Forum Admin: My name on posts... -:- Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 23:08:43 (EDT)
__ __ Shp -:- Re: Forum Admin: My name on posts... -:- Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 23:13:35 (EDT)
__ __ Shp -:- Be cool, Cat -:- Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 23:03:00 (EDT)
__ __ __ Catweasel -:- The Cat knows -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 08:54:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Shp -:- Re: The Cat knows what? -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 10:43:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ barney -:- The Cat needs no translation -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 15:16:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Catweasel -:- The Cat needs no Cover Story from Barney the Censorial Spin Doctor of Fantasy -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 20:22:02 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Catweasel -:- Re: The Cat needs no Cover Story from Barney the Censorial Spin Doctor of Fantasy -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 20:26:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Here kitty, kitty, kitty! -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 20:31:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Marianne, Can you answer my question? -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 21:29:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- I'm not sure -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 21:37:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Re: I'm not sure -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 22:02:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- It is entitled 'Are you still a premie' -can't miss it -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 22:07:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Catweasel -:- Re: It is entitled 'Are you still a premie' -can't miss it -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 22:58:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Re: Your question is spiritual McCarthyism -:- Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 09:08:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Cat: Speak plainly -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 23:16:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Catweasel -:- Re: Cat: Speak plainly -:- Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 02:30:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SHP -:- Re: Cat: Speak plainly -:- Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 10:07:42 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Catweasel -:- Re: Cat: Speak plainly -:- Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 10:44:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Re: Cat: Speak plainly -:- Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 11:31:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hihomumio -:- Re: Cat: Speak plainly -:- Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 11:50:51 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Catweasel -:- Re: Cat: Speak plainly -:- Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 00:04:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hihomumio -:- Maybe, but please.... -:- Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 20:46:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Know It All -:- Re: Maybe, but please.... -:- Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 12:58:34 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Catweasel -:- Re: Maybe, but please.... -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 01:13:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Know It All -:- Re: Maybe, but please.... -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 10:30:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Catweasel -:- Re: Maybe, but please.... -:- Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 02:40:56 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hihomumio -:- 1st question... -:- Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 17:17:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Catweasel -:- Re: 1st question... -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 01:29:48 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hihomumio -:- Re: 1st question... -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 18:59:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Re: Cat: Speak plainly -:- Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 07:08:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Catweasel -:- Re: Cat: Speak plainly -:- Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 03:12:28 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Re: Cat: Speak plainly -:- Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 12:54:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Catweasel -:- Any Plainer Shp?? -:- Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 02:51:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Re: Regarding pride -:- Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 14:52:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Re: yeah, this plain. -:- Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 11:04:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Catweasel -:- Re: yeah, this plain. -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 01:24:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Re: yeah, this plain. -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 09:53:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Catweasel -:- Goodbye -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 21:01:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Re: Goodbye -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 02:05:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Catweasel -:- Re: Goodbye -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 05:50:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Re: Goodbye -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 08:26:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Catweasel -:- Re: Goodbye -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 17:55:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Re: Goodbye -:- Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 15:47:02 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Catweasel -:- Re: Goodbye -:- Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 06:51:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hihomumio -:- Excellent point Sandy!!!!!! -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 19:04:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Reply to Hihomumio -:- Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 15:43:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hihomumio -:- Re: Reply to Hihomumio -:- Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 17:21:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Re: Reply to Hihomumio -:- Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 19:29:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Kitty, here kitty -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 23:04:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Catweasel -:- Re: Kitty, here kitty -:- Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 20:48:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ Shp -:- Oxymoron of the night -:- Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 23:05:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Cap'n Dave -:- Re: Oxymoron of the night -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 14:18:55 (EDT)

Shp -:- JW, just to show good faith... -:- Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 20:49:35 (EDT)
__ AJW -:- Kiss Earth Goodbye -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 07:49:07 (EDT)
__ __ Shpanth -:- You just call on your brother when you need a hand... -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 10:58:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ bad barney -:- Where did you get those lyrics? -:- Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 06:34:16 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Shp -:- Wrong song, Barney. -:- Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 10:18:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Know It All -:- Re: Wrong song, Barney. -:- Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 13:35:48 (EDT)
__ __ __ Wiseguy -:- Goosebumps -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 16:44:34 (EDT)
__ JW -:- Re: JW, just to show good faith... -:- Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 23:03:45 (EDT)
__ __ Shp -:- Re: JW, just to show good faith... -:- Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 23:11:59 (EDT)
__ Shp -:- ...my letter to EV -:- Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 21:03:18 (EDT)
__ __ David -:- Re: ...my letter to EV -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 09:38:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ Shp -:- Reply to David -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 11:30:27 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Re: Reply to David -:- Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 14:48:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Reply to Robyn -:- Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 15:58:51 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Re: Reply to Robyn -:- Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 16:12:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Re: Reply to Robyn -:- Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 16:40:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Re: Reply to Robyn -:- Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 20:19:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Re: Reply to Robyn -:- Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 21:43:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Re: Reply to Robyn -:- Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 20:45:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Re: Reply to Robyn -:- Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 21:46:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Re: Reply to David -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 17:02:56 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Re: Reply to Jerry about reply to David -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 17:34:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Then let's look at this -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 17:52:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Re: Then let's look at this -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 22:00:14 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Re: Then let's look at this -:- Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 01:27:07 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Re: Then let's look at this -:- Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 01:57:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- Jerry exactly! -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 18:43:14 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Re: Jerry exactly! -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 19:04:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- Re: Jerry exactly! -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 19:18:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ susan/gmom -:- Re: ...my letter to EV -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 09:53:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Susan gmom -:- David -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 10:04:42 (EDT)
__ __ Fly -:- Re: ...my letter to EV -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 00:30:55 (EDT)
__ __ Robyn -:- Re: ...my letter to EV -:- Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 21:38:51 (EDT)
__ __ Susan -:- Bravo Sandy, Bravo (nt) -:- Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 21:07:28 (EDT)
__ __ __ Marianne -:- Don't get your hopes up -:- Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 21:20:42 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ David -:- Re: Don't get your hopes up -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 09:54:34 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- David, regarding your reference to Jesus... -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 13:13:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Re: Don't get your hopes up -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 12:33:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Shp -:- Hope springs eternal -:- Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 21:40:06 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ *>*.....I'd follow -:- if the guy was visible -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 02:15:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Re: if the guy was visible -:- Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 16:28:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Re: Hope springs eternal -:- Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 21:44:16 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- reality setting in as requested -:- Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 22:05:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Re: reality setting in as requested -:- Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 22:17:48 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Re: reality setting in as requested -:- Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 22:33:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Re: reality setting in as requested -:- Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 16:37:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Re: reality setting in as requested -:- Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 19:35:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- another reality -:- Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 22:26:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Chatting with Susan -:- Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 22:56:56 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Think straight -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 09:37:28 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Re: Think straight -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 11:47:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Re: Think straight -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 15:18:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Get off it, Jer. -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 16:47:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Re: Get off it, Jer. -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 17:11:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Re: Get off it, Jer. -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 17:50:48 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Are you still a premie? -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 19:03:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Re: Are you still a premie? -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 22:21:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- I'd say you were about to bail -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 22:32:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Bail, shmail, why give it a name? -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 23:08:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Re: Bail, shmail, why give it a name? -:- Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 17:23:34 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Thanks for the post -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 23:17:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Re: You are welcome -:- Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 23:56:03 (EDT)


Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 01:39:58 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk
To: All
Subject: A terrible outrage
Message:
I've just read the post from Abi and I am angry that these terrible abuses went on within the cult and were hushed up by the powers that be. I never knew it was like this!

My deepest sympathies go to Abi and all of the people who were subjected to this child abuse.

This was planned and systematic abuse of children by Jagdeo in a most callous way, possibly over a long period of time.

And Maharaji knew about it and did nothing to put an end to it!

To all those who have been abused; now is the time to speak up. Speak to us for we are your friends and let it be known what terrible things have been done to you. And together we can deal with these monstrous cruelties.

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Date: Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 08:44:56 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Under the shock
Message:
I'm still under the shock of having been associated with that so-called 'mahatma', and some others of its kin. This is definitely one of the most terrible things that happened in DLM/EV. I decided to leave EV when I got fef up by all the abuses, I never imagined it's been that bad.

I feel sympathy for those who've been his victims, and I'd like to see something done about it.

Reporting this to authorities is one thing, and I'm very glad some of you have found the courage to do it.

But I'm also thinking about the dozens of other victims, very likely.

My opinion is that all these facts should be made as accessible as possible, and in an appropriate form, so that these victims could be able to find support if they so wish.

I remember Jagdeo definitely spent a lot of time in France on various occasions, and I'm shocked these special games might also have happened here.

I'm offering to host a whole section dedicated to this very issue on my website, unless Brian or Rober wants to take care of this.

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Date: Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 16:24:00 (EDT)
From: Roger (not Rober) eDrek
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: A permanent place for this information
Message:
Yes, reading Abi's account was very shocking. It was very graphic and I was right there in that room with Jagdeo and the kids and Abi. Thank god she did not detail it any further. I was feeling myself depersonalize and push it out of my mind. That stuff just does not compute inside my head.

I've said it before that I had a pretty decent childhood without too many complications and I am very grateful as it helps me today (or maybe that's why I'm fucked up.) I remember when I was about 7 years old talking to these two kids down the street and they said that their parents were going to get a divorce. I was shocked and traumatized that such a thing was possible. That's how sheltered I was. At that point in time my parents had had about one or two fights (something about socks) and it really freaked me out.

So, I was really an innocent babe and having something like sexual abuse happen is just too foreign for me to comprehend if I had been in that situation.

Anyway, this topic and the posts have been so personal that I would not wish to trivialize them by having them on the House of Maharaji Drek site as the tone of Drek is a bit out there, IMHO.

I'd suggest that it all belongs on ex-premie.org or J-M's site.

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Date: Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 22:18:43 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Roger (not Rober) eDrek
Subject: Re: A permanent place for this information
Message:
I have already been putting posts about the child abuse on my web site. I don't have the time (or inclination) to read every post on this forum but I will put the ones I see which are relevant, onto my site.
The abuse in Maharaji's cult
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Date: Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 15:55:13 (EDT)
From: Jw
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Yes, JM
Message:
Excellent idea.

One thing that we need to consider is that there may be people out there who were abused by Jagdeo as children who don't remember it, but have all kinds of problems in their lives that come from the abuse, which they have repressed. I know a couple of people who only recalled child sexual abuse after being in therapy as adults. It was difficult for them, but it made clear to them why they were having such problems with interpersonal relationships, self-esteem, even nightmares.

The point is, it probably would make it easier for them to know there are others that this happened to and it may help them to know that something is being done about it.

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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 14:42:45 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Maharaji's Culpability
Message:
I agree that the key issue, besides bringing Jagdeo to justice and helping his victims work through this, is what, in the cult, enabled Jagdeo to do what he did. And the fact that Maharaji knew about it and didn't do anything, or very little.

Here is my speculation:

I think Randy Prouty is a decent guy. I think he told Maharaji in 1977 when Susan told him and Judy Osborne's confirmation to Susan that Mahararji knew is likely an indication that he did tell him, and/or other people did as well.

Now, I don't think anyone is suggesting that Maharaji is a fan of child abuse or that he wanted Jagdeo to do what he did. But, there are lots of reasons why he wouldn't want to do too much about it. At least not anything that might invite negative publicity for him as his cult. As we know, Maharaji, by the late 70s, abhored publicity and became increasingly secretive, even from his own followers.

Think about it. If he yanked Jagdeo from his 'service' it would have been noticed. Jagdeo was a pillar of DLM. He and Charanand were the 'senior' holy guys in the mission. Just like with Fakiranand, Maharaji was not about to turn Jagdeo over to the authorities, nor do too much that might allow the fact that there was child molestation going on in his cult to get out. Of course not. Instead, it is my speculation that he or some DLM honcho 'talked' to Jagdeo and warned him about interactions with little girls. Of course, to a child molester, who is compulsive and sometimes thinks what he is doing isn't abuse at all, but is something 'nice' for children, that he 'loves' children, and all the rest, this is worthless.

So, in my opinion, once again, Maharaji put himself, and his exaulted position, ahead of anything else, even the welfare of children. That has always been his priority. Himself. And his decisions within his cult were NEVER questioned. As Anth mentioned, as a premie, if you doubted anything in connection with Maharaji, you blamed yourself for doubting, being confused, lacking in understanding, etc., because anything Maharaji did or didn't do was perfect. We just strove to try to surrender more and be more devoted to him.

And the things that happened to Susan and Abi, are the kinds of things that happen in authoritarian systems like that. For the general background on this, I suggest reading 'The Guru Papers' by Joel Kramer and Diana Alstad.

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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 15:33:38 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Re: Maharaji's Culpability
Message:
'Just like with Fakiranand, Maharaji was not about to turn Jagdeo over to the authorities, ......'

Someone in a recent post said that prempal couldn't 'de-mahatmatise' Fakiranand because Hansji had made him a mahatma. This says alot about prempal's personal belief system.
Taking this further, I know a former premie who was told by Jagdeo that he was the reincarnation of a former perfect master......maybe prempal believes(believed?) the same thing about Jagdeo.
Premies should be demanding a response from their master.

There is no way out for prempal.....he is vicariously responsible.

jethro

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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 14:52:55 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Re: Maharaji's Culpability
Message:
Dear JW,

I really appreciate your posts. I have been in contact with Marianne & Jim via the telephone and would like to correspond with you via email from time to time if possible.

Best Wishes,

Liz

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Date: Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 00:00:09 (EDT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: Re: Maharaji's Culpability
Message:
Hi Liz,
I agree, I like JW posting again.
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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 09:45:58 (EDT)
From: David
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Re: A terrible outrage
Message:
Dear Sir Dave,
You say you 'never knew it was like this'.
You've been involved in this whole saga for months.
According to the posts on this site Jagdeo did feel up young girls.
Every conscious human being knows that this behaviour is unacceptable.
The question is, does the action of a person with knowledge, invalidate knowledge.
The answer is, of course not.
As to whether Maharaji would allow it to continue I think the obvious answer is no he wouldn't.
David
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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 12:22:55 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: David
Subject: Re: A terrible outrage
Message:
'As to whether Maharaji would allow it to continue I think the obvious answer is no he wouldn't'

WELL HE FUCKING DID!!!!! WAKE UP!!!!!!

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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 10:49:27 (EDT)
From: Susan Gmom
Email: None
To: David
Subject: I am reposting what I wrote about why Rawat did know
Message:
from a thread below:

Forum IV: The Ex-Premie Forum
Anything & Everything about Maharaji and his followers

Forum Admistrator
Ex-Premie.Org
DLM / EV Papers
Roger's House Of Maharaji Drek

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Posted: Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 15:43:19 (EDT)

Original: NA
Posted by: Susan/Gmom
Recipient: All
Email Address: Not Provided
Browser Type: Mozilla/4.05 [en] (Win95; I)

Subject: from Susan (long)

Message:

I am going to start posting as Susan. Which is my real name. When I was a premie I was
Susan Green and I lived in Miami. I grew up in Miami but I moved many years ago.

I have always felt a little uncomfortable talking about my experience with Jagdeo and my
attempts to report it without using my name. What I thought was that anyone who read my
Journey would know it was me speaking. Recently however someone I
knew posted and did not know it was me from reading it. Also, Anth probably by oversight
named the people I told about Jagdeo on the site in his letter to Glen. A long time ago Mary
named them as well. So I think since the names are really out I would like to talk about that. I
feel it is more ethical to do so as Susan.

Randy Prouty was the first person I told. Randy was the community coordinator in Miami in
1975 the year I received Knowledge. He was especially nice to me when I would come to the
Ashram to do service, which was just about everyday, and what I recall most was that he
helped me with my Algebra. I also had a terrible crush on him. I was 13 and here
was this 23 year old man who thought I was an important devotee in my own way. He was
like a big brother/mentor and in no way was the crush reciprocated.

A couple years later Randy had left Miami to become a residence type security premie and
an initiator. In 1977,after the incident with Jagdeo I thought of Randy as a way to tell the Guru
about Jagdeo. Randy came to town not long afterward. I told him about Jagdeo in the parking
lot beside the satsang hall after satsang. I was careful to explain it was not just me, but my
friend also, he knew her as well, and that worse had happened to her and probably several
other girls in 1975 when these girls were between 8 and 12 . The satsang hall was across the
street from Coral Gables High school in a storefront. Randy took it seriously as I explained in
my journey. I do recall later that he did tell me hehad told Rawat but I do not recall too much
more than that.

Years later, when I wanted to join the Ashram at 16, Randy came to my house to convince
my mom that it was okay. I think he also went to the guru himself to vouch for my being
ashram material at 16. Big mistake. I guess for him, but not for me. I am glad. I couldn't take
the ashram. I missed my mom, I hated the guy who was the house father who kept giving me
RULES, I missed freedom. I started seeing all the Ashram premies as hypocrites. I do not
look back on this retrospectively as that my motives for seeing this were selfless. It was sort
of reverse psychology, give her what she wants and she won't want it anymore.
Instead of rebelling by BEING a premie I rebelled against premies. One day I called my mom
and said come get me. She did.

That was probably the first time Randy was sorry he vouched for me. My journey was likely
the second.

Leaving the Ashram was hard. My life was premies and I was lost. Scared, terrified and lost. I
have said before I started destroying pictures of the guru to see if I would burst into flames. I
did not. Good sign. I wrote to people who were ex cult supporters. I did not hear back. I was
looking for someone who could help me out of this new terrifying phase of my life. Life without
premies and the guru. I did not find it fast enough. I KNOW if there had been a site like this
my life would have been much better.

I got involved with a premie. Explaining this relationship is embarrassing. But it was not
exactly a relationship to be proud of. I was flailing and lost and grabbing for dear life to what
was FAMILIAR. The premie world. Even if I joined it as an ex at its outskirts. This premie was
my first sexual relationship of any kind, fist kiss and all, and he soon had to get a divorce to
marry me, I was pregnant. I was 17. I still have a lot of shame about this.

So a couple years and another child later, I am watching Phil or Oprah as I did every
afternoon. And it is about child sexual abuse and I think long and hard about Jagdeo. This
was the second time I 'told'. I thought maybe Randy lied? I still to this day
do not get why Rawat did not do something. I may have been an ex but I still thought that the
guru would get rid of Jagdeo if only to protect himself. A friend had told me that Judy Osborne
was Marolyn's midwife. This same friend gave me these treasures, Daya's old clothes, made
of silk and linen, for my baby daughter. I certainly had not yet cut my guru umbilical cord. So
I call or write Judy Osborne. She calls me back. I had never met her. I tell her the story
thinking as a midwife she will get the seriousness of this. I still think she did. If she is being
forced to lie about this I bet it is torturing her. She called me back a
week or so later and said the guru 'already knew' and 'he was glad this was not a new
incident' . This is so important....I did not tell her prior to this that I had ever reported it before.
I then told her about Randy. She THEN said, oh, of course Randy
would have told 'Maraji' he is a good guy. She had no way of knowing that the guru was ever
told except that she told the
guru and he said he already knew. I did not even mention KNOWING Randy before I got
confirmation she had told the guru.

I really am upset about this because of the scope of it all. What happened to me was so
minor compared to the other victims.
But what I did, if what I said had been heeded, might have prevented a lot of pain. I think the
fact that now so many premies
know because of my Journey and more importantly this site is rather amazing. Knowing
about the other victim in England, how
much worse it was for her and how much younger she was, sort of galvanizes me. And
common sense tells me there are victims
everywhere Jagdeo went. I can let what happened to me go. I cannot let what happened to her
go. Especially when it was
likely preventable.

I want to say that it really bothers me to make Randy and Judy villains in this. If people who
read this judge them for only telling the guru I want them to think about what they might have
done in the 70's heyday. I really think they did exactly what most devoted premies would have
done, told Rawat and trusted he would take care of it. However, if they are really lying about it
now I feel betrayed.

I am going to post a white pages thing so maybe old time Miami people can write. It is funny
but the only premies I remember
well were the first ones I met. Before Miami became premie mecca. The ones who fed me in
their homes, who helped me with
my troubles, who were really good people. All the bigwigs I met later have faded into a type.
The little people, who were so
kind to me, are the heroes of the end of my childhood. Which was one strange childhood.

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This Entire Thread:

. Susan/Gmom from Susan (long) Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 15:43:19 (EDT)
Katie You go, girl! Thurs, Sep 23, 1999 at 20:00:37 (EDT)
Brian Big Wet Smooch Thurs, Sep 23, 1999 at 11:15:29 (EDT)
Susan thanks Brian :) (nt) Thurs, Sep 23, 1999 at 17:24:25 (EDT)
Augustina Re: from Susan (long) Wed, Sep 22, 1999 at 23:17:49 (EDT)
Susan Thank you Augustina Thurs, Sep 23, 1999 at 17:23:10 (EDT)
bb jerkdeo Wed, Sep 22, 1999 at 11:54:35 (EDT)
gmom Re: jerkdeo Wed, Sep 22, 1999 at 15:53:13 (EDT)
kmdarling Re: A New Page Feature I might offer Wed, Sep 22, 1999 at 16:19:52 (EDT)
. Liz Re: A New Page Feature I might offer Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 01:07:58 (EDT)
Roger eDrek Re: A New Page Feature I might offer Thurs, Sep 23, 1999 at 05:37:06 (EDT)
Marianne Re: A New Page Feature I might offer Thurs, Sep 23, 1999 at 10:48:11 (EDT)
Marianne ROGER-BEST OF***** Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 20:32:37 (EDT)
Gmom Thanks Marianne (nt) Wed, Sep 22, 1999 at 11:33:16 (EDT)
Roger E. Drek Re: ROGER-BEST OF***** - only if Susan says it's ok (nt) Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 21:18:11 (EDT)
Robyn Re: from Susan (long) Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 19:55:13 (EDT)
Gmom Thanks Robyn (nt) Wed, Sep 22, 1999 at 11:31:59 (EDT)
JW Great, Susan Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 19:52:10 (EDT)
Gmom for JW Wed, Sep 22, 1999 at 11:31:08 (EDT)
david m Re: Susan Wed, Sep 22, 1999 at 16:42:28 (EDT)
Marianne Hi David M! Wed, Sep 22, 1999 at 18:44:14 (EDT)
david m Re Hi Marianne Wed, Sep 22, 1999 at 19:58:16 (EDT)
JW Thanks Gmom Wed, Sep 22, 1999 at 13:04:43 (EDT)
. Liz Re:Parlokanand (A list) Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 01:38:40 (EDT)
. kmdarling Re: Re:Parlokanand (A list) Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 02:41:57 (EDT)
. JW Re: Re:Parlokanand (A list) Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 16:11:36 (EDT)
Sandy/Shp reply to Susan Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 19:50:56 (EDT)
Susan Gmom Re: reply to Susan Wed, Sep 22, 1999 at 11:27:10 (EDT)
Anti Shp Hangin' on the cross with sheep Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 23:20:12 (EDT)
Robyn Re: Hangin' on the cross with sheep Wed, Sep 22, 1999 at 12:37:35 (EDT)
Jim Shp's Victim Services Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 22:15:26 (EDT)
Shp Please take it elsewhere, Jim Wed, Sep 22, 1999 at 10:02:52 (EDT)
Susan Gmom SHP and Jim Wed, Sep 22, 1999 at 15:59:07 (EDT)
Shp Mediation unnecessary Thurs, Sep 23, 1999 at 01:27:00 (EDT)
Jim Can't you see he's exploiting you, Susan? Wed, Sep 22, 1999 at 19:25:05 (EDT)
Shp Susan, I am sorry Jim made this thread a killing field Thurs, Sep 23, 1999 at 01:57:37 (EDT)
Jim Someone give this guy a hankie Thurs, Sep 23, 1999 at 11:39:30 (EDT)
Shp The Sheep keeps his Goat, no one gets it. tonight. Thurs, Sep 23, 1999 at 21:18:15 (EDT)
Jim Figures Thurs, Sep 23, 1999 at 22:21:31 (EDT)
. Shp End of story, this chapter at least Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 08:19:37 (EDT)
. Jim You truly are ... what? What's the word? Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 11:35:50 (EDT)
. Shp Re: What's the word? How you say, fed up with your bullshit? Yes? Fri, Sep
24, 1999 at 16:03:45 (EDT)
LdM Thanks for revealing so much Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 17:20:28 (EDT)
Susan gmom Thank you Lee Wed, Sep 22, 1999 at 11:24:57 (EDT)
Shp Oooooooops Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 16:18:25 (EDT)
Susan Gmom Tears in my eyes Anth Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 16:22:54 (EDT)
Shp Pass the Cyber-Kleenex (nt) Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 16:26:13 (EDT)
Happy Thank you Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 16:10:05 (EDT)
gmom thanks happy (nt) Wed, Sep 22, 1999 at 11:20:41 (EDT)
Way To Susan Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 17:08:25 (EDT)
Susan Gmom Re: To Susan Wed, Sep 22, 1999 at 11:19:38 (EDT)
kmdarling Re: To Susan Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 17:25:06 (EDT)
gmom Re: To Susan Wed, Sep 22, 1999 at 11:15:20 (EDT)
. Liz sexual abuse Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 01:14:14 (EDT)

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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 11:12:21 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Susan Gmom
Subject: questions
Message:
'I still to this day do not get why Rawat did not do something. I may have been an ex but I still thought that the guru would get rid of Jagdeo if only to protect himself. A friend had told me that Judy Osborne was Marolyn's midwife. This same friend gave me these treasures, Daya's old clothes, made
of silk and linen, for my baby daughter. I certainly had not yet cut my guru umbilical cord. So I call or write Judy Osborne. She calls me back. I had never met her. I tell her the story thinking as a midwife she will get the seriousness of this. I still think she did. If she is being forced to lie about this I bet it is torturing her. She called me back a week or so later and said the guru 'already knew' and 'he was glad this was not a new incident' . This is so important....I did not tell her prior to this that I had ever reported it before.

I then told her about Randy. She THEN said, oh, of course Randy would have told 'Maraji' he is a good guy. She had no way of knowing that the guru was ever told except that she told the guru and he said he already knew. I did not even mention KNOWING Randy before I got confirmation she had told the guru.'

-Susan Gmom

________________________________________________________________________________________

So where are Judy Osborne and Randy Prouty? What also gets me is that according to Abi's story, her dad went off on Charanand about it and apparently still nothing happened. This man was with Shri Maharaji and was with Maharaji from birth. That's how things like this are handled in the Sat Yuga?

Also, I'd like to know if Abi's parents are still premies and how hard did they fight for her back then?
Were they so caught up (I can understand) that they feared going against the 'Lord', even over their daughter's welfare? Where are they now and what is their involvement? If it happened to my kid, I'd be leading the charge, if I had a breath in me.

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Date: Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 08:54:37 (EDT)
From: Grace
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Re: questions
Message:
Yes, SHP, I was wondering the same about the parents. I know the issue here is related to the organizational heads, but I was wondering if everyone was forgetting that parents of these abused children who were told have a strong responsibilty as well. Where were they and what did they do? I would think that if that occured now, it would be grounds for terminating parental rights based on neglect and lack of protection of the child.
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Date: Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 09:59:32 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Grace
Subject: Re: questions
Message:
Grace,

I did not bring up the parents to water down the responsibility that the organization still has, although the parents are the primary guardians. It just really shocks me that ALL of the failsafe protections on the children - the parents, the mahatmas and others who knew, and anyone else in the loop - they all failed the children. I find it hard to believe that every single individual in this loop was that stupid on their own. Something fostered and nurtured an idea inside these folks to keep it quiet.

Under 'normal' circumstances, an abused child discovered by a responsible grownup(s) would be reported to the authorities immediatey and the abuser would be stopped from repeating his offenses on others. This is called 'society at work'. So for some reason, the premie society at its highest levels did not function in a way that could be considered humane towards children. I read somewhere that a truly good and decent society is only as good as how it treats its most weak and defenseless members.
One other thing: Judy Osborne was a midwife for Marolyn? She knew premie kids were being abused and did not share this with Marolyn as well as Maharaji? Midwives have a special service and provide a special care for new moms and new babies, and are supposed to be real connected to the juice and all that. I don't get how she in particular did not see this through to closure. This is not blame, it's a question of conscious responsibility in a realm of one's particular expertise, babies and children.

What are the solutions, the closure for all involved, to the existing problems with Jagdeo and what can be done so it never happens again like this....those are the questions that EV has to concern itself with, not who's who on which site and what did so-and-so say on that last thread.

Shp

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Date: Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 13:04:31 (EDT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Good devotee/Good parent?
Message:
Abi has been aware of this forum and corresponding with several of the ex's for a long while. I think the issue of her parents is an exceedingly difficult one for her. In the letters she writes to me it is clear that she does love them very much. I am not trying to excuse any responsibilty they have. I think Abi is painfully aware of how things could have been better. But it also possible, her parents are out there aching over this, and as at least one of them is still a premie, maybe both I do not recall, I think they may be really suffering right now. I am not trying to excuse it. I just feel some compassion, for Abi and her parents.

We really have to close our eyes and take ourselves back on a journey to the 1970's. See yourself at Rome, or Kissimee, or Miami.....Try to remember the kids. I recall seeing a LOT of child neglect going on in the guru's name. If you cannot remember the mindset then read the DLM history at ex premie org. I felt that a lot of parents were so caught up in the living lord is here that they saw their children as a burden and impediment to serving him. In Miami, I recall premies from other parts of the world moving there in the late 70's with nothing, to be near Rawat. Some of these very devoted premies really showed in every action they took that Rawat was first and kids were a distant second.

However, most of the one's I knew did not do that. They accepted the limitations a child had on their capacity to go to every festival or do service. They were premies on the terms their families could cope with.

I think we forget too the esteem Mahatama's were then held in. I think it was likely something to be proud of if Jagdeo took a special interest in your child. My friend, the one in Miami who was molested at 12, shared with me later that it was her greatest sense of shame. Jagdeo seduced her. Taught her to make chapatis, gave her treats and privledges, and told all the premies how very special she was. She did enjoy her new status. But she paid a heavy, shameful price for that status. If you read about pedophiles you see Jagdeo is a classic type.

Here is a quote from the Sports Illustrated article, 'There's also the 'seductor' type, and this pedophile is most likely to work as a coach of children- the likable, chatty, often witty guy who in sports finds an accessible pool of children to prey on. ( obviously Jagdeo preyed on a nother vulnerable pool) He uses his position as a coach to win over the kids parents and , through patience and stealth, breaks down the children's inhibitions until he is able to seduce and molest them. Most such pedophiles have an age preference, but what really sets them apart from situational and introverted offenders is the staggering number of boys ( this about sports) they seduce. These sex offenders 'will molest more children than any other type,' says Young, an FBI agent, 'anywhere from 12 in a lifetime up to 500 or 600.'( Studies have found that the average preferential molester victimizes about 120 children beofre he is caught.)

Anyone who cn get their hands on this article will understand this whole thing a lot better. Abi and her parents were victims of a cunning child molester and also cult members who had been trained NOT to use their MINDS, in fact to never leave room for doubt in their minds. Her parents have some responsibilty, and I have a feeling they are going to hurt for the rest of thier lives over that, but I myself feel some compassion for them.

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Date: Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 15:32:01 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Suffer the little children to come...
Message:
Susan,

I understand what you are saying thorughout your post. I was in a monestary 73-76 and then went after Maharaji in 77 and got K in 78. I saw alot of what you described. I considered myself fortunate at the time to be single and able to travel on short notice. Very different from dealing with diapers, walkers, extra luggage, not to mention children themselves and all their physical and emotional needs. And that quote reference from Jesus about leaving everything for the sake of the kingodm of heaven being misunderstood, resulting in child neglect and abuse....a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Just a note about the abusers: Although I would not have much mercy on someone if I cuaght them hurting one of mine, after the blood would clear from my eyes, I would see that I am dealing with some very sick person who was probably messed with too. So what is the answer to break the cycle of abuse? If we just kill off or imprison the abusers, more will be coming out of society if the ills that produce them are not cured. I don't have the answer, I just see it all starts in the home, which is becoming an endangered area, with all the assaults coming in from the media, the news, etc.
The Amish don't look so wierd anymore....

I have a real hard time hearing that Abi's folks are still premies (or even one of them) and there has been no resolution or closure to their daughter's encounter with Jagdeo, no apology, no court, no apprehending the culprit, no nothing. That's a tough one. I can understand the paralytic nature of the times it happened in, but are they getting involved now?

Shp

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Date: Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 23:10:58 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Re: Suffer the little children to come...
Message:
Shp:

I have read studies that indicate that many child abusers were themselves abused as children. It's a terrible cycle. I think there is at least a psychological theory that children who are sexually molested as children have a sort of fixation on that period. They sometimes try to re-create it as adults but many, many people who were abused as children do NOT continue the cycle; those are people to be admired. But I've read that it is very hard to cure. The solution is prevention. Because the punishment of a child molester probably doesn't do much for the damage that has already been done to the child.

Another sad fact is that a very large percentage of child abuse, sexual and otherwise is actually performed by the parents of the children, not some outside predator. But Jagdeo probably did lots of damage and moslested lots of kida, I am afraid.

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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 10:20:41 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: David
Subject: Even more contemptable
Message:
Maharaji knew that this was going on (as explained by Susan) and yet Jagdeo was still allowed to continue to do it.

This argument about invalidating 'knowledge' is clutching at straws. Knowledge is a form of meditation. What has that got to do with child abuse? If Maharaji and his henchmen are shown up to be liars, cheats and downright disgusting and hypocritical characters, then THAT is the issue.

The fact that they are preaching about some refined, 'higher' state makes their behavour even more contemptable.

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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 01:02:25 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: All
Subject: From the Chief of Army Chaplains
Message:
ELAN VITAL

ADDRESS: Box 6130, Malibu, CA 90264

OTHER NAMES BY WHICH KNOWN: Formerly known as the Divine Light Mission

LEADERSHIP: The spiritual master of Elan Vital is Maharaji.

MEMBERSHIP: Not reported.

HISTORICAL ORIGIN: The Divine Light Mission (the original name of Elan Vital) was founded in India in 1960. Since that time, Maharaji (formerly known as Guru Maharaj Ji) has inspired a worldwide movement that is active in approximately 55 countries.

The Divine Light Mission was formally established in the United States in 1971 as a nonprofit religious organization and in 1974 was recognized as a church by the United States Internal Revenue Service under IRS Section 501 (C)(B) . Elan Vital was established as a successor organization to the Divine Light Mission in the early 1980s.

BASIC BELIEFS: Although Elan Vital has dropped many of its Indian cultural trappings, the group's world view is rooted in the Sant Mat. Maharaji reveals an experience called 'Knowledge,' which itself cannot be adequately described in words but which can be experienced through satsang, service and meditation, the fundamental practices of this worship. Maharaji's teachings given in satsang programs have special authority and meaning to all members and are circulated and read throughout the membership. Other brochures and pamphlets are printed from time to time.

PRACTICES AND BEHAVIORAL STANDARDS: There are no ethical practices in terms of rules and regulations. Members believe that involvement in satsang, service and meditation results in an inner code of conduct which guides behavior. The central practice is meditation.

There are three special religious holidays which are observed by all members and last up to seven days. These are in March or April (Holi Festival), in July (Guru Puja), and in November (Hans Jayanti).

ORGANIZATIONAL STRUCTURE: Elan Vital has an Informal organization build around the personal relationships between Maharaji and his followers.

ROLE OF MINISTERS: The Ministers of Elan Vital (Initiators or Mahatmas) travel continuously around the world. Ministers teach and initiate interested persons into the practice of meditation as a means of self-realization. Any member of Elan Vital while serving in the Armed Forces may receive special permission from National Headquarters or the nearest community coordinator to conduct and coordinate church meetings on military installations.

WORSHIP: Members meditate formally twice daily and attend spiritual discourse when possible.

DIETARY LAWS OR RESTRICTIONS: Most members are encouraged to be vegetarians, but this is a personal choice.

FUNERAL AND BURIAL REQUIREMENTS: None. No restrictions with respect to autopsy or cremation. A minister is not required at death.

MEDICAL TREATMENT: No restrictions.

OTHER: Elan Vital does not take a position with respect to service in the Armed Forces.

Elan Vital holds introductory programs to attract new members, but most persons come to the group through acquaintances with other members.

There is no conflict between Elan Vital and other faiths. The teachings of Maharaji involve the member in an experience, not a belief, according to the organization.

GENERAL SOURCE BOOKS:

Since changing names and transforming the organization, no written material of any substance has appeared either by the organization or descriptive of it.

FOR MORE INFORMATION, CONTACT:

[Editor's note: Possibly because attacks upon it in the 1970s, the Divine Light Mission adopted a very low profile and as Elan Vital Maharaj Ji has continued a policy of not relating to outside information gathering efforts. Recent attempts to gain status reports on the organization by researchers have been completely ignored by the leadership.]

Last updated: 27 May 1998 / E-Mail: CH(MAJ) Conway

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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 13:18:06 (EDT)
From: Via
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Re: From the Chief of Army Chaplains
Message:
Interesting. How did you find this?

Via

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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 01:50:58 (EDT)
From: *>*...the power of a hat
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: the power of a song
Message:
Some say that in the sixties, the song 'Wishing and Hopeing'
a song sung by a woman to women about -just go ahead
and have sex with your man and you will be his-
was actually the biggest factor in the sixties that
actually caused the so called sexual revolution.

One song has changed lives many times.
Just think about one that altered you.

Songs in the dlm universe definately played a role
in keeping us trapped.
They are in the archives waiting to be used by future
'devotees' to push the 'see, m WAS the lord' rap.

I know there was at least one miami 'event' where he
was just SO abrasive in all his talks that weekend
(about 1983) but the arti would save the day.
That song would sort of erase all his talks and lead
us into the pre-dance mental state where he would be
there in his crown and mala and just sitting there
waiting for us to get him to dance.

'Oasis of love in a world of make believe'
No wonder it is hard for some to make the break.
No wonder two girls from Connecticut commited suicide
after leaving the ashram in 1980. They were all of about
21 years old.

Fuzzbee Morse and those musicians have a special
responsibility to own up to thier delusions and the
power of song.

y2k is going to be a mother... many countries will
go through hell, religions are just really packed
with idiocy, and m will get a second wind.
Other than peoples own common sense, this collection
of people and words here are very important to check
the idiocy of THIS religion.

At the start of this forum, who could have guessed
that JM would be the only responsible instructor
and he would step forward to speak and work for truth.
And all the webmasters.

The crown in the bedroom closet haunts him.
It is calling.

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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 01:11:39 (EDT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: this part appears to be true
Message:
There are no ethical practices in terms of
rules and regulations.
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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 01:58:43 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Re: this part appears to be true
Message:
Personally, I just love this little clip.

'FOR MORE INFORMATION, CONTACT:

[Editor's note: Possibly because attacks upon it in the 1970s, the Divine Light Mission adopted a very low profile and as Elan Vital Maharaj Ji has continued a policy of not relating to outside information gathering efforts. Recent attempts to gain status reports on the organization by researchers have been completely ignored by the leadership.]'

Paranoia, anyone?:)
Joey

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Date: Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 22:20:06 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Forum Administrator
Subject: Forum Admin: My name on posts...
Message:
I was scanning the whole enchilada and saw my initials on many posts I had nothing to do with, too numerous to mention, in threads I had nothing to do with. What's up?
Shp
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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 06:49:32 (EDT)
From: Forum Adminstrator
Email: forumfour@hotmail.com
To: Shp
Subject: Re: Shp's name on posts...
Message:
shp,

I aplogise for the problem you've described. Your name appeared when we tried to replace the text in one of your messages, which had inadvertantly been deleted. (See my above thread).

Because, when we try to fix something, it seems to cause a problem somewhere else, we've cleaned things up as best we can, and are leaving the rest alone.

When you open a post that's had your name added, the name of the rreal author is displayed on the header.

Forum Administrator

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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 10:40:10 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Forum Adminstrator
Subject: Re: Shp's name on posts...
Message:
Forum Admin,

No problem. Couldn't have merged with a more compatible exer.

Shp

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Date: Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 23:59:21 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: More on wrong name posting
Message:
It seems that lots of the posts with my name mistakenly on them are really Anth's if that helps clear it up.

Shp the one and only

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Date: Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 23:08:43 (EDT)
From: A Yank
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Re: Forum Admin: My name on posts...
Message:
It's currently about 3 or 4 in the morning in the UK so we might have to wait a few hours for the names to get fixed, but I'm sure they will be.
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Date: Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 23:13:35 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: A Yank
Subject: Re: Forum Admin: My name on posts...
Message:
Thanks to the Yanks.
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Date: Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 23:03:00 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Be cool, Cat
Message:
Cat,

I prefer to take the less paranoid approach for now.

Just like when the posts here all started going blank earlier this evening, I'll bet most here thought there was some cyber-terrorism was being perped by EV. Wish I had a dollar for everyone who thought that's what was up before the Forum Administrator posted his story.

Chill, Cat. Some shit going down here that crosses premie / ex-premie lines, regarding human decency and child protection.

Shp

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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 08:54:24 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: The Cat knows
Message:
You are being foxed Shp. P.S The Cat has let the story out of the bag.
The manipulative actions and deletions have been duly noted by the Press you were trying to'impress' Mr Forum Dickhead Administrator.
It pays to have good contacts. Your Credibility-ZERO .Should have risked leaving the truth on display!
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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 10:43:17 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Re: The Cat knows what?
Message:
Catweasel,
Please translate your last post. I really did notunderstand what you said. Plain English please
Shp.
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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 15:16:22 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: The Cat needs no translation
Message:
Ah, poor Shp. Just doesn't get it.

Shp, go to the grocery store, buy some really cheap stinky catfood, take it home or in the parking lot of the store, open it, put it in a little dish and start lapping it up. Within minutes you will understand the wisdom of the Catweasel.

Leaving the catfood out for a few days before eating will make the change in you permanent.

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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 20:22:02 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: Count the Browsers?
To: barney
Subject: The Cat needs no Cover Story from Barney the Censorial Spin Doctor of Fantasy
Message:
I don't really care about your didain Mr Barnacle. But feel comfortable in the knowledge that this time you have major goofed.Have a nice day and remember Watergate, McCarthy and all those other fools who have tried to edit the truth to suit their own purposes.Your in elite company now Barney.
P.S I know who's looking over my shoulder,do you know who that is behind you? Edit on blind man.
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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 20:26:30 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: A little Freudian slip
To: Catweasel
Subject: Re: The Cat needs no Cover Story from Barney the Censorial Spin Doctor of Fantasy
Message:
DISDAIN>Blink and I missed it!
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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 20:31:52 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Here kitty, kitty, kitty!
Message:
Good kitty! Here's a nice ear scratch! No more catnip for today, because you are having hallucinations about your purple friend barney.

What time is it in Aussie land, kitty? It really ain't barney and you read far too much into what happened. Anyway, maybe it was the boy god who deleted it! Remember, not a leaf moves, etc......

LOL, kitty lover Marianne (I have 2. 1 named Halloween and 1 named Onyx, often referred to as Onyx you fucking asshole when he hassles sweet Halloween)

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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 21:29:58 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Marianne, Can you answer my question?
Message:
Hey Marianne,

What's your game
Can anybody play?.... (from an old song)

I want you to help me, seriously. Please take a look at the above post to me from Cat entitled
The Cat Knows. Can you tell me what it means? I can feel the vibe of the conversation, but the understanding of the text would be helpful. Thank you.

Shp

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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 21:37:22 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: I'm not sure
Message:
Hi Sandy. I will answer this question if you will answer the ones I posted below. Do we have a deal?
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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 22:02:40 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: I'm not sure
Message:
Marianne,

I have to scroll to the view all page to see your questions. Give me a chance to look at them tonight or tomorrow.

Shp

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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 22:07:38 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: It is entitled 'Are you still a premie' -can't miss it
Message:
****
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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 22:58:57 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: That black one sounds like my soulmate.Has it been .....you know????
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: It is entitled 'Are you still a premie' -can't miss it
Message:
You know Shp,sometimes I really, really wonder.Looks like the lights are on but no-ones home?
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Date: Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 09:08:36 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Re: Your question is spiritual McCarthyism
Message:
I defer to Abraham Lincoln, who was once confronted by a group of nosy society ladies in Washington
who asked him how he could be president and be an atheist, since none of them had seen him in any of the local churches on Sunday mornings.

He said to them something like: 'The relationship bewteen a person and their Creator is personal.'

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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 23:16:57 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Cat: Speak plainly
Message:
If you really want to communicate with me, then you need to speak more plainly.
Communication requires:
1) transmission
2) reception
3) medium

In the case in question, you are the transmitter, I am the receiver and the internet and the English language is the medium. I hear fine and I am savvy to hipness and all that, my computer is working, but you are not utilizing the language as if you sincerely wish to be understood by me. Twice you have posted to me in your private jargon and have not made yourself clear. Indulge me in my lowly ignorance of your highly evolved methods and slow down your vibration so I can understand what the hell you are saying, or please don't post to me anymore.
Shp

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Date: Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 02:30:10 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Re: Cat: Speak plainly
Message:
YOUR THE PATSY
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Date: Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 10:07:42 (EDT)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Re: Cat: Speak plainly
Message:
Catweasel,

I understand what a patsy is, wasn't born yesterday, but I don't see the need for one here.
And you still are not explaining yourself in a way that I can fully understand your message.
So far, I have it that you think I am being played here for some reason.
Please give me your whole rationale, and stop dropping one-linrs and secret clues.
Why do you think a patsy is required here? Why do you think it's me? For what purpose?

Shp

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Date: Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 10:44:40 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: Nothing more will be forthcoming from me on this issue.
To: SHP
Subject: Re: Cat: Speak plainly
Message:
Your the link to the present.Go and scroll down the page next door and see what can be done with the 'right' software.You waste a lot of your own time and energy jousting with the gang here.Do you trust their motives? Do you have anything to go on other than random cyberspace entries? Think about it Shp;you are giving those making these accusations substance merely by communicating with them about such matters. Let them do whatever they have to do....Your contribution here is unnecessary. You are being used and abused.
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Date: Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 11:31:58 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Re: Cat: Speak plainly
Message:
Catweasel,

The only issue that grabs me involves the children. I happen to believe Susan Gmom and Abi and Anth. The others who are abusive to me I can get beyond or ignore. My contribution here supports doing things above board with respect to children in an organization that I have been financially supporting for over twenty years, and I don't consider it a waste of time at all.

How this matter is handled by EV directly affects me and my future involvement in the organization.
Therefore, I am keeping watch.

As for all the cybertricks, I don't really care. I wish consciousness was evolving as fast as technology.
I am more interested in the consciousness side, not so much a tekkie.
Shp

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Date: Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 11:50:51 (EDT)
From: Hihomumio
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Re: Cat: Speak plainly
Message:
Hello Shp-

I am happy to see that Catweasel has not deterred you in the least in your quest for the truth in this matter. I get the feeling that Cat is one of those 'close my eyes and meditate and this problem will go away' type of premies.

By the way, have you noticed that the regular premies who come here have suddenly disappeared? Guess they don't like the reading material-there really is no way they can dispute what has happened to those children and defend their cult. Kudos to you for being more interested in the truth of the matter rather than maintaining your premie illusions. Clearly this revelation has made you open your eyes. You'll be an ex before much longer.

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Date: Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 00:04:12 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: None
To: Hihomumio
Subject: Re: Cat: Speak plainly
Message:
Catweasel is very well versed in legal process. This is not an emotional 'I feel like this ' thing ;there are peoples lives at stake here.I see no reason to involve anyone other than those involved. In a legal sense Shp was never and will never be involved in the alleged events. The agenda then becomes totally clouded. In this country people would find themselves in avery difficult postion legally doing the sort of publicity stunts some of the less informed have indulged in here. In fact it would pre future legal prejudice any future legal action dramatically. Get my drift.?????????????
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Date: Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 20:46:55 (EDT)
From: Hihomumio
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Maybe, but please....
Message:
clarify it for me so I understand completely: Are you staying out of this discussion because you do not want to impede legal action? This is what I interpret your 'drift' to be.

'Catweasel is very well versed in legal process.'
Are you involved in the justice system, such as a lawyer, or are you self-taught? I can't recall if you have ever mentioned what it is that you do for a living.

Hihomumio

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Date: Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 12:58:34 (EDT)
From: Know It All
Email: None
To: Hihomumio
Subject: Re: Maybe, but please....
Message:
Hihomumio: Hello there. The Cat has suggested before that he is an attorney, soon after he first appeared on the forum. He said lots of nasty things to Marianne about her being a lawyer, but they seem to have patched it up, as it now seems that Catweasel is engaged in an affair with one of her cats. The Cat does not want us to know what he does,I think. Or maybe he just does not want the honchos in DLM/EV to know that he is such a constant presence here.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 01:13:32 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: You'll never know?
To: Know It All
Subject: Re: Maybe, but please....
Message:
Did it cross your mind that maybe, just possibly .... he or she could [a] be what he/she intimated
[b] be what you imagine the cat fears
Interesting possibilities hmmm......
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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 10:30:57 (EDT)
From: Know It All
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Re: Maybe, but please....
Message:
Sure I've considered that you are an attorney, but why not just tell us? I saw in your post above that you referred to yourself as Cat Weasel Esq. Believe me, I've got nothing against lawyers, but maybe Marianne's cat does.
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Date: Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 02:40:56 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: None
To: Hihomumio
Subject: Re: Maybe, but please....
Message:
I am not self taught.
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Date: Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 17:17:22 (EDT)
From: Hihomumio
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: 1st question...
Message:
Okay, so I guess you don't want to say you are a lawyer. That's fine by me.

What about my first question: Are you staying out of this discussion because you do not want to impede legal action? This is what I interpret your 'drift' to be.

Thanks,

Hihomumio

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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 01:29:48 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: None
To: Hihomumio
Subject: Re: 1st question...
Message:
Yes, although I beleive on apurely pragmatic level the excercise is atotal waste of time and will achieve nothing.Too late either way.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 18:59:11 (EDT)
From: Hihomumio
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Re: 1st question...
Message:
Maybe you are correct, hopefully you aren't. I would like to thank you though for answering me and for being so civil about it. I generally won't engage in conversation with premies because I am not interested in having a battle of words.

Take care Cat..

Hihomumio

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Date: Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 07:08:37 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Re: Cat: Speak plainly
Message:
Cat,
My involvement in the events, though indirect, does exist in the fact that I have been affiliated with EV for as long as it has existed as an entity. I am not an ambulance chaser or needy for attention.
Shp
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Date: Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 03:12:28 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Re: Cat: Speak plainly
Message:
Good on you chump, you probably are really smart!!
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Date: Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 12:54:41 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Re: Cat: Speak plainly
Message:
OK you Freaky Feline,

How would YOU address the issue of child abuse committed by a mahatma over a period of years and on various continents? Why are you trying to make ME out to be some sort of flake or patsy or chump?
Who are YOU here to protect and WHY? What's WRONG with feeling strongly about this matter?
Are YOU part of some ELITE group who thinks you are the ONLY ones who know how to TALK,
or have the RIGHT to talk? Are YOU here on your own, or at someone's else's direction?
Play with THAT ball of yarn for a bit,
Shp

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Date: Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 02:51:25 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: Speaking from expierience.
To: Shp
Subject: Any Plainer Shp??
Message:
Oh my Shp we do still harbor some personal pride don't we ?? And thats good , thats really good. Shp you can do nothing here unless you are either a 'wronged party' or the alleged perpetrator. If you are a legal practioner or a counsellor, a relative or a law enforcement officer you may be able to involve yourself in a meaningful way. Otherwise your pissing in the wind like all the other schmucks here.
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Date: Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 14:52:08 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Re: Regarding pride
Message:
'Oh my Shp we do still harbor some personal pride don't we ?? And thats good , thats really
good.' -Catseasel

You don't know me very well. I am just a Samaritan on the road and I ran across some women and children in distress getting a raw deal and I tried to help out, and put my shoulder to the thing to help get it out of the ditch. That's all. That's not pride, That's human decency, common courtesy, chilvary, being a mensch. if I am wrong, God forgive me. If I am right, God forigve you.
Shp
I don't live in the world of pride that you perceive from within you.

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Date: Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 11:04:49 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Re: yeah, this plain.
Message:
Catweasel,

Really? So which one are you?
Place an 'x' in the proper space and return please.

A wronged party? ____________
alleged perp?_______________
legal practitioner?____________
counsellor?_________________
relative?___________________
law enforcement officer?______

I believe and hope that my involvement, in some small way at least, helped to bring this to a point of
dealing with it and finding closure for the victims as well as the perpetrator, and an assurance that he still isn't free to abuse more kids.

This specific issue with theJagdeo and the kids is not a premie or ex-premie issue. I wanted that to be made clear by my involvement. You are entitled to your opinion, but that's how I see it.

I know there are many issues here against Maharaji that I think are a bunch of hot air, and there are those here who want to bring him down for their own personal reasons. That is not what or who I ally myself with. I am simply here to say that any person who commited child abuse should have been taken out of commission after the first report came in, especially a mahatma of someone who has
declared he is the Living Perfect Master, come to bring Peace to the planet. It's just common sense,
which I have been told by reliable sources is a most uncommon thing in this world.

Shp

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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 01:24:30 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Re: yeah, this plain.
Message:
You can rest assured that he is out of harms way and well contained in a location not likely to be accessible.He IS NOT where mentioned.Leave it. Death claims all.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 09:53:52 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Re: yeah, this plain.
Message:
I am not on the lynch mob detail. That's not my gig.
I am just a guy who smelled smoke and pointed in the direction of the fire, and tried to provide some impetus to put it out.
Just a note: you said he is out of harm's way....I hope the kids in his neighborhood are too.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 21:01:30 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Goodbye
Message:
Shp, are you always so literal ?For Christ's sake do you have no sense of the ironic? Oh no you wouldn't would you being American! Don't worry Shp , when someone gets to a certain age ,there is a strong certainty that death is imminent. Your comment about children discounts the fact that most of us are now Grey; how many 'retirement homes and nursing homes' have you discovered with nurseries and playgroups?Wise up Shp ;You ARE a patsy. You really have nothing more than sympathy for the alleged victimsThis in itself is commendable.Deal with that;with the rest of it your way out of your league.YOU ARE BEING USED [to discredit people who have had nothing to do with these alleged events.]
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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 02:05:45 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Re: Goodbye
Message:
Cat sed:
Shp, are you always so literal ?For Christ's sake do you have no sense of the ironic? Oh no
you wouldn't would you being American!

Shp sez:
This is an example of nationalistic bigotry and snobbery. With a little condescension for spice.
Multiply that attitude by a few hundred million or a few billion and you have the state of the
group head of the planet. Individuals, that's what we all are, not just microcosms of our sick and decaying cultures, fresh unique human beings. Or at least some of us. You must be referring to the walking dead, which exist in all countries. That's not me.

Cat sed:
Don't worry Shp , when someone gets to a certain age ,there is a strong certainty that death is imminent.

Shp sez:
Thanks for the tip. Hey, that's ironic, isn't it? We enjoy each breath, but each breath brings us closer to death. See, some of us Americans dig irony.

Cat sed:
Your comment about children discounts the fact that most of us are now Grey; how many 'retirement homes and nursing homes' have you discovered with nurseries and playgroups?

Shp sez:
What the hell are you talking about? I am not looking for anyone. And besides that, I don't assume anything anymore....and some old folks homes do have interaction with little kids as therapy and exercise. In a perfect world, old folks and little kids are a great combo; some progressive places are working with putting kids and old folks together.

Cat sed:
Wise up Shp ;You ARE a patsy.

Shp sez:
You like that word patsy, eh?

Cat sed:
You really have nothing more than sympathy for the alleged victims.

Shp sez:
Not sympathy, empathy. Big difference. And the fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
So may God make me a righteous man, if only to make this prayer: that this whole mess be resolved in right action to the ultimate benefit and upliftment of all concerned.

Cat sed:
This in itself is commendable. Deal with that;

Shp sez:
And how do you recommend that I 'deal with that'?

Cat sed:
with the rest of it your way out of your league.

Shp sez:
We all have our strengths and weaknesses.

Cat sed:
YOU ARE BEING USED
[to discredit people who have had nothing to do with these alleged events.]

Shp sez:
I don't happen to agree with all the gripes about Maharaji here and I have said so. In this world, there can't be 'too much' support for abused kids. I don't believe that I have wrongfully discredited anyone to date. I read stories here that reverberated with truth, told by two ladies who experienced something really strange. It grabbed me and I responded by expressing support for a resolution and closure to the pain of the victims as well as the old man. The ladies deserve their human dignity and decency acknowledged and reinstated as much if not more than the old man needs to be doing what he's doing wherever he's doing it. I look forward to that happening in right action.

I think you are really a big pussycat. Big league pussycat.

Shp

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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 05:50:09 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Re: Goodbye
Message:
And I don't believe your for real. If you are ........SEEK HELP!!!!!!
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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 08:26:39 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Re: Goodbye
Message:
You ae entitled to your beliefs. I seek help every day.
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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 17:55:10 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Re: Goodbye
Message:
When are will you recognise its arrival?
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Date: Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 15:47:02 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Re: Goodbye
Message:
What makes you think that I don't already?
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Date: Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 06:51:08 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: Down among the dead men!
To: Shp
Subject: Re: Goodbye
Message:
Shp you wouldn't be still arguing the point down here at the bottom of the page if you did, Shppy!!Lets get up front again ,back on top. See yah
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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 19:04:30 (EDT)
From: Hihomumio
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Excellent point Sandy!!!!!!
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 15:43:47 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Hihomumio
Subject: Reply to Hihomumio
Message:
Hello Hiho, can I call you Hiho for short?

Someday I will be dead. I don't know when that is. I have to do what I believe in and feel from the heart to feel alive now, and try to minimize the damages to all concerned. There is enough pain and suffering in the world. I have always looked for the truth in whatever I was doing, that's the thing that I must follow to be able to say I am even on a journey. Otherwise, I would just be spinning my wheels and going nowhere. Kudos accepted and back at ya, but I just call it living.

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Date: Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 17:21:45 (EDT)
From: Hihomumio
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Re: Reply to Hihomumio
Message:
Maharaji. He is not giving anyone something that they can't get elsewhere. He is a shyster and a fraud.

Nice chatting with you Sandy.

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Date: Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 19:29:01 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Hihomumio
Subject: Re: Reply to Hihomumio
Message:
Hey Mumio,

If that's what you like to be called, it's fine with me. The process you described of learning is true of all experiences...you can't push the river.

Somebody told me recently, when you get screwed around with and learn, it's called Experience.
When you get screwed around with alot and learn from it, it's called Wisdom,

Later.

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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 23:04:47 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Kitty, here kitty
Message:
Cat: Onyx stands by our back door and growls, 'Catweasel, catweasel....'

M etc.

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Date: Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 20:48:33 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: Kitty, here kitty
Message:
I feel a strange stirring in my fur trousers . The hair on my back is standing and my tail has gone stiff!! What is happening? You try sitting on that typing!!
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Date: Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 23:05:32 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Cat
Subject: Oxymoron of the night
Message:
The oxymoron of the Night:

'The only rule at Anything goes'

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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 14:18:55 (EDT)
From: Cap'n Dave
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Re: Oxymoron of the night
Message:
Well spotted!
I guess I should rename it, 'The nearly ANYTHING GOES Forum'.
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Date: Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 20:49:35 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: mcpass1@earthlink.net
To: JW
Subject: JW, just to show good faith...
Message:
JW,

I don't have to prove myself to anyone, but since there is so much mistrust flying among us and for good cause, I wanted to send you a copy of the letter you inpsired me to get on with.
Thanks for lighting a fire under me to do it right away.

I did not use the posts here, but did refer him to Glen Whittaker who I am sure will fill him in.

Shp

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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 07:49:07 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: anthginn@yahoo.com
To: Shp
Subject: Kiss Earth Goodbye
Message:
Hi Sandy,

Thanks for your continued support on this issue. I remember when I was a premie, often thinking of writing to Maharaji about stuff, and I was often scared to do it. When I did write to him with a question like, 'What computer should I use in the classroom?', he never replied. I wrote to Marolyn a couple of times about things and she always took up whatever issue I'd mentioned, and did what she could.

I think what used to happen in me was, I'd go through this train of thought, 'He's the Lord. He knows everything. All I should give him is my devotion. These problems are 'illusory worldly matters'. There is a greater reality which I should focus on and surrender to. If I mention this to Maharaji, 'I'm laying my mind (ego) on him, and he wants my love' and on it goes Sandy, the problems that swallow you up when you crown a fellow human being as our Creator.

So, what I'm getting at, is, whether you still consider yourself a premie or not, you've got some integrity and courage to write him a letter like that.

I know you get a hard time from some of the exes here, from time to time, but they see events from a very different perspective from you and me.

I'm still half in premie world. My wife went to the last programme Maharaji did in England, as did my best friend. I play pool every week with a bunch of people, half of whom are premies, and in lots of ways, I probably would be considered to be 'part premie'.

For example, I don't feel that my relationship with Marolyn, Wadi, Hansi and Daya has changed. I've not met them since I stopped being a premie, but if I did, I'd hope my relationship with them would be the same as it ever was. I'm sure they've heard all sorts of terrible things about me. (Lots of PAMs think that this 'Forum' is a conspiracy centre, aimed at spreading lies and hate, under the spell of Jim, the evil Antichrist.) But I wouldn't be at all surprised if they read the Forum from time to time, particularly if it's about them, so who knows?

What I'm clear about is my own feelings about everything. These have been maturing at a rapid rate, like a plant that's suddenly brought out of the dark, and has lots of chlorophyll to make up.

We've both been willingly trained to look at life through our 'spiritual, unworldly' glasses. This has caused us to avoid seriously dealing with the 'material side of life'. Sure we had to eat, sleep, do our duties etc, but we were really here to serve the living Perfect Master, who was here like Christ and Buddha.

But there are lots of folk around who see things very differently. On the 'Hotel California' album, there's a beatiful line that goes,

'Call some place Paradise, kiss Earth goodbye'.

That's what we did Sandy. But Maharaji didn't tell us to go out and feed the poor and needy, like Christ did. The only bit of the New Testament stories he liked was the bit about, 'Always having the poor with you, but not always having me', the bit that encouraged us to serve him, and a few bits that could be tenuously related to 'Knowledge'.

Hmmmn. It's not surprising, in an environment where everyone thinks like that, child abuse, which is difficult to deal with inside a normal head, gets pushed away under the carpet.

And now that the carpet's been pulled back, it's interesting to watch everybody's reactions.

'There is no dirt.'

'There's dirt but we never knew about it.'

'You say we were told. We say we forgot.'

'Okay, there's dirt, but Maharaji never knew about it.'

'Okay there's dirt. But that came from Divine Light Mission, and Divine Light Mission had nothing to do with Elan Vital. (It was only when JHB and JW produced direct evidence that this was a lie, that they suddenly shut up about this.)

And some people, like you and me, say, 'There's dirt. Let's try and clean it up.'

And others say, 'Let's hide it carefully in an ashram in Delhi'.

Rock on Sandy.

AJW the SHP

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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 10:58:26 (EDT)
From: Shpanth
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: You just call on your brother when you need a hand...
Message:
...we all need somebody to lean on -
I just might have a problem that you'll understand -
we all need somebody to lean on....

Great songs like this have been getting delivered into my ears by little angels as I have been writing these last few days and hours here, accompanied by a big pleasant rush of tingling goosebumps from head to toe. I think it was Krishna who said that goosebumps is a sign of having a spiritual experience.

Greetings this beautiful Saturday morning. In honor of our cyber-merging, if Eileen and I conceived a love child this morning, we'll name it either Anthony or Antonia, something like that. Hope it was good for you.

We have alot more in common that I thought, after reading your post. Let's e-mail later.

Shparty on Anth

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Date: Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 06:34:16 (EDT)
From: bad barney
Email: None
To: Shpanth
Subject: Where did you get those lyrics?
Message:
...we all need somebody to lean on -
I just might have a problem that you'll understand -
we all need somebody to lean on....

Mr. D's Rolling Stones Home Page at http://www.cc.utah.edu/~dmj2a50/rs_lib.htm has the following lyrics. Now, I'll be a good boy and I will not post the lyrics to Stray Cat Blues from the Beggar's Banquet album.

LET IT BLEED
(M. Jagger/K. Richards)

Well, we all need someone we can lean on
And if you want it, you can lean on me
Yeah, we all need someone we can lean on
And if you want it, you can lean on me

She said, 'My breasts, they will always be open
Baby, you can rest your weary head right on me
And there will always be a space in my parking lot
When you need a little coke and sympathy'

Yeah, we all need someone we can dream on
And if you want it, baby, well you can dream on me
Yeah, we all need someone we can cream on
And if you want to, well you can cream on me

I was dreaming of a steel guitar engagement
When you drunk my health in scented jasmine tea
But you knifed me in my dirty filthy basement
With that jaded, faded, junky nurse
Oh what pleasant company

We all need someone we can feed on
And if you want it, well you can feed on me
Take my arm, take my leg, oh baby don't you take my head

Yeah, we all need someone we can bleed on
Yeah, and if you want it, baby, well you can bleed on me
Yeah, we all need someone we can bleed on
Yeah, yeah, and if you want it, baby, why don'cha bleed on me
All over

Ahh, bleed it alright, bleed it alright, bleed it alright
You can bleed all over me
Bleed it alright, bleed it alright, you can be my rider
You can cum all over me
Bleed it alright, baby, bleed it alright, bleed it alright
You can cum all over me
Bleed it alright, baby cum all over me

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Date: Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 10:18:17 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: song-challenged barn
Subject: Wrong song, Barney.
Message:
I think it was Bill Withers singing and the song was 'Lean on Me'.
Try again to find it, it's a classic and worth finding the whole song.
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Date: Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 13:35:48 (EDT)
From: Know It All
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Re: Wrong song, Barney.
Message:
Shp: I think bad barney realizes that the song to which you referred was completely different. he was making a joke, which I found rather funny.
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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 16:44:34 (EDT)
From: Wiseguy
Email: None
To: Shpanth
Subject: Goosebumps
Message:
Yeah, I stand in front of the air conditioner all winter with the windows open myself. Good ole Krishna. Where would we be without him?
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Date: Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 23:03:45 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Re: JW, just to show good faith...
Message:
Sanford:

That's great that you wrote the letter. Very well done. By the way, Sanford, I do vaguely recall you from Miami may years ago.

JW

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Date: Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 23:11:59 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Re: JW, just to show good faith...
Message:
JW:

So who the hell are YOU?

Shit man, I used to stand at the bus stop by the Algiers Hotel, all dressed in white (intelligent in hot Miami) with no hair (alopeica), and all these people at the bus stop are thinking I'm a Krishna guy because of the way I looked, and then they'd realize and go 'Hey, this guy's not a Krishna..let's go see'
Wacky stuff back then. I got a million of 'em.

So who the hell ARE you?

Shp

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Date: Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 21:03:18 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: ...my letter to EV
Message:
To the Director of Elan Vital:

My name is Sanford Pass. I received Knowledge in February, 1978 in Philadelphia.
I have been conversing with some very credible sounding people on the internet who
have told me story after story firsthand of the repeated abuses committed by a
now retired instructor on at least two continents and over a period of years.
These abuses involved little children, the children of premies.

These people claim that some very trusted people close to Maharaji - Randy Prouty,
Judy Osbourne and Charanand at least - were aware of the abuses early on. Some of
the victims claim that Maharaji himself knew that the instructor in question, Jagdeo,
had a problem, yet allowed him to travel the world without forewarning parents or
community coordinators about the danger to children Jagdeo presented. Personally, I
have found this particular part of the story very hard to take, for all the ones who
knew either would have had to lie to Maharaji, water it down or cover it up for him not
to know. Somebody did not mind the little ones, which I do believe is a primary rule
of life among those who love, especially among the more conscious, which is
what we premies are supposed to be and are told we are becoming if we practice Knowledge.
And yet an instructor of this same Knowledge goes and does all this harm like a sick and
dangerous wolf in sheep's clothing, totally unfettered by his Master or anyone else.
And people knew, people who could have prevented more of the same happening to other
unsuspecting children, most likely the children of premies. At least those in authority,
I thought, those who were charged with helping to guide our trusting, unsuspecting and
spiritually naiive group, would have had it together enough to know that child abuse is not
something that can be swept under the rug in the late 20th century....no matter who commits
it, and that kind of thing is definitely going out with the old age, wouldn't you agree?
But the abuses did happen and nothing was done to stop the abuser for quite some time, I have
been told by those who witnessed and suffered it.

A premie community in England - Cornwall I believe - is also pretty upset about this matter.
Glenn Whittaker in England has been in contact with Anthony Guinn, who has all the information.
Anthony is in direct contact and ongoing cooperation with some of the victims, who are looking
for a full resolution and closure to the whole matter.

For me, I cannot - and God knows I've tried - in any scenario, understand or condone what has
happened with the awareness of not one but at least three members of the the 'upper management'
(for lack of a better term) in an organization of peaceful and trusting folk.

Bottom line summary:
1) Premie kids were molested on at least two continents over years by an instructor.
2) At least three instructors knew and it kept on happening.
3) At least one victim claims Maharaji knew about Jagdeo's problem as well and continued to send him out.
4) This is all coming out now.
5) This wasn't part of the program.
6) Knowledge is Knowledge, but we still have to take out the garbage wash the dishes, go to work, keep it straight down here.
7) I really want to hear from you about this matter as soon as possible.

Combined, my wife and I represent almost 50 years - half a century of our lives - of sincere
belief and practice of Knowledge. I don't think getting a straight answer from you is asking
too much. .

Sincerely concerned,

Sanford and Eileen Pass
mcpass1@earthlink.net

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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 09:38:33 (EDT)
From: David
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Re: ...my letter to EV
Message:
Dear Sanford and Eileen,
I am a practising premie of 27 years and I am certain that if Maharaji knew of these allegations he would have put a stop to it.
Jagdeo has not travelled as a mahatma for many years so I presume that these allegations eventually did make their way to Maharaji.
Regards
David
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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 11:30:27 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: David
Subject: Reply to David
Message:
Dear David,

What is your last name?

Why were the victims not given any sort of compassionate attention by anyone from EV/DLM, once it was obvious that Jagdeo had molested children? What about Abi's Dad being blown off by Charanand and not given any satisfaction or answer once he realized what had happened to his daughter and said something?

No acknowledgement of the pain and suffering, nothing.
It's not just about the allegations made about Maharaji knowing or not knowing (see Susan Gmom's reference to Judy Osborne conversation)
It's about how this whole thing was handled.
No closure for the victims.
For all they knew, Jagdeo was still out there repeating his shit.
And they could not stop him.
For all they knew, he could be surrounded by kids often.
And he did get away with it for years after it was first reported.
This is documented.
It makes me ashamed of my affiliation.

And don't tell me about Knowledge.
I know and appreciate what Knowledge is.
This is not about Knowledge.
This is about common sense (most uncommon)
And human decency.
So if and when you answer, please stay on topic.

Shp

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Date: Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 14:48:21 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Re: Reply to David
Message:
Dear Sandy,
Loved the love child reference! FUNNY! :)
'So if and when you answer, please stay on topic. '
You sound a little like any of us. You know I respect you and I would welcome you, your wife and your little Anth into our ranks if that was what you chose.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 15:58:51 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Reply to Robyn
Message:
Robyn,

Love and respect me NOW
As I am loving and respecting you NOW
While we are alive NOW
For we don't know
What tomorrow may bring.
Who knows?
I could die right after this post.
We take so much for granted.
I have been in the here and now
With you all, not caring about
Affiliations or group politics,
But caring rather for that which
Needs caring and can get it from
Nowhere else.
CHILDREN need love and care
From responsible grownups.
If that's not happening,
All bets are off in my book
Until the kids are covered.
Love,
Sandy

PS 'Ranks' sounds too military anyway.
We've been hanging out together,
that's good enough for me for NOW.

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Date: Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 16:12:36 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Re: Reply to Robyn
Message:
Dear Sandy,
Of course, premie or not, I respect you. That sentence just struck me. I would welcome you and Eileen and little Anth no matter what. :)
You know we are in agreement about the kids for sure!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 16:40:05 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Re: Reply to Robyn
Message:
lil anth and the imperials.... hohoho
you are probly too yung to appreciate that reference.
Love and good wiil
Shp
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Date: Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 20:19:10 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Re: Reply to Robyn
Message:
Dear Sandy,
Why, do I seem like a young chippy!? :) I am 44. Wasn't it Martha or Marvin Gay, can't remember the main name but I am not good with names ever, I am better with sounds, voices, can you sing me a few bars? :) Regardless I do remember the Imperials and that has got to give me half the points, eh? :)
I was on the back lash of the hippy era but had a sister in the thick of it that I idolized and spent lots of time with at Douglas campus in NJ.
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Date: Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 21:43:43 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Re: Reply to Robyn
Message:
I'm about 5 minutes from your old stomping ground.
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Date: Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 20:45:52 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Re: Reply to Robyn
Message:
Well at least my ignorance is because of my youth! :)
Little Anthony and the Imperials, DUH!!!! Duh, do, wap...
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Date: Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 21:46:32 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Re: Reply to Robyn
Message:
You look young in cyberspace
That's a complimnent
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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 17:02:56 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Re: Reply to David
Message:
That's exactly what it's about. Who else could have done something about it? Osborne? Prouty? Charanand? The only thing they could do is tell M about it. It was not in their power to stop Jagdeo and give 'closure to the victims'. Only M could do that.

Keep protecting your fat Lord, Sandy, and placing blame on everybody else. If you really care about the victims, then you know that Maharaji and ony Maharaji had power to do something about it. Placing the blame on his fledgling wannabe holy people is bullshit. Only if they didn't tell M like they say they did are they culpable. Otherwise, they are blameless, and the guilt for letting a poedaphile roam free rests squarely on the fat fraud of the universe.

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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 17:34:22 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: Reply to Jerry about reply to David
Message:
Jerry,

'Only if they didn't tell M like they say they did are they culpable. Otherwise, they are blameless, and the guilt for letting a poedaphile roam free rests squarely on the fat fraud of the universe. -Jerry

Exactly my point, Jerry. We just said it differently. I am defending no one.
Like I said in an earlier post, if he is for real, he doesn't need me to defend him
And if he isn't, I wouldn't bother.

Shp

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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 17:52:21 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Then let's look at this
Message:
So, the question becomes did they really tell Maharaji?

When Judy returned to Susan, she said that Maharaji already knew about it. But...

SUSAN NEVER TOLD JUDY THAT SHE HAD ALSO TOLD RANDY!

If Judy was lying about telling Maharaji, why didn't she just say 'yeah, I told him.' Why would she elaborate her lie by saying Maharaji already knew about it? That's a strange way to lie, wouldn't you say? So, how could Judy know that Maharaji already knew unless he, himself, told her that he did?

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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 22:00:14 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: Then let's look at this
Message:
Jerry,

I totally understand your point of view. I don't know who was lying, but I do know that people do and say strange things when they are in uptight situations.

I am trying to be totally objective, not defensive. There will come a point when the whole truth and all the facts of the matter come to light. Then there will be no more speculation. I am not in this to see who guesses the right answer first.

Besides all that, I find it incredible that Jagdeo could do what he did for as long as he did it without a lot more people than are named so far having some clue that something strange was going on. I get a real strong feeling about that, no direct knowledge. It remains a mystery to me why someone did not speak up. At least three 'responsible' adults knew about Jagdeo - Judy, Randy and Charananand, not to mention Abi's parents and I am sure they must have talked among their friends - not one of these folks went to the authorities or went public? Abi's own parents? Were they all so afraid back then? I did not receive Knowledge until 1978, when much of this had already taken place. Is that contributing to what you see as my density in understanding something here?

Shp

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Date: Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 01:27:07 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Re: Then let's look at this
Message:
Sandy,

I don't see why receiving Knowledge in 1978 would contribute to your density on this issue. I received Knowledge in 1980. What's contributing to your density is the high esteem you've held Maharaji in. You think that he's this great soul, up there in the ranks of Jesus and Krishna (not that they're so high up there either, but you believe they are). How could such a great soul be guilty of what he's being charged with? Maybe he isn't such a great soul after all.

It's your belief system in the prophets and who qualifies as such, that's your stumbling block. That's what I think. Here's something else I think. Maybe if you believed more in yourself, you wouldn't lean so heavily on the prophets. Then they'd never be able to deceive you.

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Date: Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 01:57:37 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: Then let's look at this
Message:
Jerry,

I don't lean on people. What people have said that works and has life in the words is undeniable.
Don't get carried away in your critique of me, for behold the turtle, who goes slow, but gets nowhere until he sticks his neck out. And he beat the rabbit.

Carpenters rely on previous building standards and techniques to build a house. Every new house doesn't start out all over from the cave and evolve. We build on what we know. And so it is in the world of human affairs, and I don't mean the worldly kind. Wise people have come before us and if we are smart we learn from them, realizing at the same time that they too are still under construction as we all are and always will be as long as we are in the material plane. It seems to be the nature of it.

That does not excuse criminal actions, which must be accounted for. I remember Maharaji advising us all to be 'immaculate legally'. Just came to me. Makes sense to me.

Shp

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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 18:43:14 (EDT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Jerry exactly!
Message:
This is such an important point and it is exactly what happened. I am glad it was not lost on you and I hope everyone reads your post.
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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 19:04:01 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Re: Jerry exactly!
Message:
Hi Susan,

I think anybody who's willing to look at this thing honestly can see that Maharaji had to know.

The big man is finally getting his. I commend you for coming forward on this. I hope it has helped you to deal with it. You should also know, as should Abi, that you've both been a great help to all of us who were once snared in the cult. You're coming forward as you did has loosened the chains that much more.

Thanks.

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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 19:18:57 (EDT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: Jerry exactly!
Message:
Dear Jerry,

Thank you. That really means a lot to me. I did not know that telling the rest of the story would feel so liberating. Of course too, Abi telling her story helps people understand why I could not let it go, My friend in Miami, when she was 12, had an experience similar to Abi's. It was never just about what had happened to me.

I will forward your post to Abi, who has emailed me that these posts have been very healing for her to read.

Thank you so much.

Susan

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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 09:53:29 (EDT)
From: susan/gmom
Email: None
To: David
Subject: Re: ...my letter to EV
Message:
David, he did know. Please read Gmom's journey and my archives posts.
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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 10:04:42 (EDT)
From: Susan gmom
Email: None
To: David
Subject: David
Message:
David, read my post that you have to press 'all 100' it has become inactive. It details why I know that Rawat does know and has known about Jagdeo since 1977. Also, read my journey under gmom at ex premie org. He did I know.
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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 00:30:55 (EDT)
From: Fly
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Re: ...my letter to EV
Message:
Sandford,

Very powerful letter and feels right from the heart. Perhaps you could send it to the letters page of the Sunday Express in England, as they have had some involvement in these issues. Someone could maybe post the mailing address here for you

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Date: Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 21:38:51 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Re: ...my letter to EV
Message:
Dear Sandy and Eileen,
Thank you for sending this letter. I don't know what else to say now. I don't have much hope that you'll get a response never mind a satasfactory one although I surely hope you do. I do believe that whatever results from your action I feel confident that you are a sincere and honest person and will face the results head on.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 21:07:28 (EDT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Bravo Sandy, Bravo (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 21:20:42 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Don't get your hopes up
Message:
Sandy: I am glad that you wrote the letter to EV and Maharaji, but it will never be answered. I can promise you this from a legal standpoint first of all, and I can promise you this as an ex-premie secondly. Well, maybe they'll respond with a few sentences because I've written this post. EV and Maharaji can't afford legally to respond to anyone given this turn of events. Your letter may force them to realize that long term premies are about to bail if no satisfactory action is taken though. That hits M and his hangers on where it hurts -- the pocketbook.

Sandy, what we ex's had to realize is that much of what we believed was a facade. I must ask you to question the legitimacy of an individual and organization which allowed these events to occur, as well as the Fakiranand incident. There is something very wrong here and that is it.

Marianne

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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 09:54:34 (EDT)
From: David
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: Don't get your hopes up
Message:
Gee Marianne,
I guess if we judged everyone by their associates even Jesus would get a bad rap on this forum.
Judas was a liar, an informer and accomplis to murder.
Peter denied Jesus three times.
And Christ knows what the rest did?
I believe Mary Magdelan was a prostitute and Jesus apparently turned water into wine.
Perhaps someone on this forum could be an example.
David
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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 13:13:05 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: David
Subject: David, regarding your reference to Jesus...
Message:
David,

For your information, I don't believe that Mary tuirned any more tricks after she encountered her Master. Those who came and stayed with Jesus were healed and 'sinned no more'. It's called 'repentence', a key ingredient in the whole thing including forgiveness. And when one of the disciples cut the ear of one of those who came to arrest Jesus at Gethsemane, he healed him immediately according to the record. And as for Judas, the Master knew of and required his presence to complete his mission, so the story goes.

He did not have an entourage of repeat criminals travelling with him who continued to perpetrate their crimes with the awareness of Jesus or his disciples.

So much for your analogies pertaining to Jesus.
This saith Brother Shp in an inspired moment

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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 12:33:33 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: David
Subject: Re: Don't get your hopes up
Message:
I don't know about water into wine...but you are surely pissing into the wind when you are even suggesting that prempal hasn't known about the abuse(s).
His and EV's silence all this time speaks volumes.
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Date: Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 21:40:06 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Hope springs eternal
Message:
My hopes and happiness are not 'reply-from-EV-dependent'.

I am going to follow God
I am going to follow God
I am not coming back
-Native American Prayer

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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 02:15:54 (EDT)
From: *>*.....I'd follow
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: if the guy was visible
Message:
*********************************************************
*>* where oh where now could he be,
that god so I could follow thee
the indians 'followed god' to thier demise
and now they see god in gamblers eyes
salvation is waiting via a casino

I followed god,
we were not to come back,
it was only all for him
we were to just watch his back.
He was lost
went in the ditch
avoided his mom
well hell, she was a bitch

maybe 'god' is into prem rawat
maybe he IS the chosen one
saviour of all when things get bad
bring us back to the 'one'
better he fail and god try again
then leave the example so drenched in sin.

Nice dream for a while
hey we know god!
I kissed his feet this weekend while
You worked in your yard
Waiting for him
to make his move
trying to get him to approve
the effort we made to get him to smile
that 'unsmiled smile'
but we failed the trial
How could he take us
to somewhere he aint
and while we were,
he wasn't a saint.

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Date: Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 16:28:38 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: *>*.....I'd follow
Subject: Re: if the guy was visible
Message:
Dear Bill,
Love you too, and your poem. :)
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 21:44:16 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Re: Hope springs eternal
Message:
Sandy and Eileen: Look, I could make some trite comment in response to the posting of that Native American prayer, but I won't. Sandy, you know what I am saying -- I am telling you that you will probably never get an adequate response to a very troubling inquiry. If you don't get a meaningful response, please consider what it means in the context of Maharaji and his whole trip.

Marianne

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Date: Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 22:05:53 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: reality setting in as requested
Message:
Marianne,

Yeah, that's what I meant. Got it.
It just came to me, that prayer, I wasn't trying to be 'spiritual'.
I am sadder tonight for what I have learned.
I am freer tonight for what I have learned.
I am smarter tonight for what I have learned.
Freedom has a price alright.
And education costs something.

You better believe we are considering what it means in the big picture.
I was born on a Monday, but not last Monday.

Shp

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Date: Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 22:17:48 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Re: reality setting in as requested
Message:
Thank you. It is not easy to come to terms with all of this, which is why we are here. But I tell you Sandy and Eileen, there is no explaining these incidents away, and unfortunately, one of the hallmarks of this organization has been explaining things away. Don't accept it anymore, please.

Marianne

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Date: Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 22:33:19 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: reality setting in as requested
Message:
In every large organization, because of the law of large numbers, a certain amount of shit happens.
Insurance companies bank on this as a means of determining awards and cash values for things like fingers, arms, eyes, lives, etc. Sounds cold but that's how it goes in that world.

In Maharaji's world and the world of premies, this is not acceptable or expected behavior by a standard issue premie OR a member of the elite. what would have happened to an ashram premie for doing what Jagdeo did if he got caught? Ever happen?

If they were thinking along the lines of 'acceptable losses' or 'friendly fire' like big business and armies think, then Maharaji either allowed a bad policy to be enacted regarding the handling all this, or thought it up himself.

This ain't the scene where the priest gets caught and transferred squeaky clean to another parish, before phones, internet, electronic news gathering, etc. I was led to believe that Maharaji lives in the Sat Yuga, the Age of Truth right NOW, and so do all premies who practice Knowledge faithfully. That's where it's supposed to take us, right? Well, if the Jagdeo affair is an example of how stuff like this is being handled in this Sat Yuga, I don't really see much of a difference from what is going on now.

Fall is a great time of year for introspection. Thanks for your patience, love and sisterly attitude.

Shp

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Date: Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 16:37:25 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Re: reality setting in as requested
Message:
Dear Sandy,
When I read Abi's account of her abuse it started, if you recall with an Anthony, a mere fucked up premie, I assume. I think his abuse was also let go and who knows how many other children he has abused since also.
I don't know if any adult ever knew what that man did but I wonder. It has been said here before that the cult drew a lot of mentally unstable people into its fold. Makes you leary of everyone where your kids are conserned. A shame but a necessity.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 19:35:26 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Re: reality setting in as requested
Message:
Robyn,
I was leery of everybody when my kids were little. An most natural and healthy human parental response to living in a messed up world. We have not been dumbed down...got to keep awake.
I think it was Jefferson who said that eternal vigilance is the price of liberty. I know he wasnt' talkin gabout kids, but it fits.

Shp

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Date: Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 22:26:01 (EDT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: another reality
Message:
To Sandy and Eileen,

I remember being a premie pretty well. It takes a lot of guts for a premie to send a letter like that.

Susan

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Date: Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 22:56:56 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Chatting with Susan
Message:
Susan,

I don't have to worry because:

'My blessing are always with you and grace too. So go along, don't be afraid of anything in the world.....a man who has got my blessings and grace has nothing to be afraid of in the world.'

Really? What about confronting an issue with EV that has been in the closet for years involving child abuse committed by a mahatma over a period of years on at least two continents and with the awareness of at least three instructors? Hey, I just said it and I'm not afraid....it works!

The two choices would be to:

A) cover it up and face the possible backlash later
B) deal with it up front and in front, thus controlling and containing backlash better

The only thing I see as a variable is Maharaji's illogical love and loyalty to Jagdeo, protecting him from jail or hospitalization, where punishment and/or drugs would not really heal the guy, and just add more suffering to the universe. Jag was sick and I don't think maikng him suffer is the answer, but taking him out of commission where he could hurt others was. And not event hat was done.
I feel there a parts to this puzzle that have not been found in the couch yet...you know, where all the pocket change, keys and important little stuff ends up. There must be more to this. Dumb he ain't.

Shp

PS I like David too, Psalm 23. Turns me right on. 'yea, though I walk....' This stuff works if you get into it. Really. But you are right, the first few times one 'tries the spirits to see if they be of God'
(St. Paul) one has the inclination to shit one's pants.

I'm more like in the mode of 'OK...I was 29 when I got Knowledge and now I am 50.....'
(to be continued somehwere sometime later down the road...got some unravelling going on and want to stop typing for a bit and get a bottle of wine across the street. See ya later, Susie.

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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 09:37:28 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Think straight
Message:
--

Do you see what you've done here, Shp? You've made an attempt to justify Maharaji's actions to one of his victims. That's how you lose all perspective when you're a premie. Vindicate the master at all cost. You become like a bee or an ant ready to sacrifice his life to save the queen. I wish you could see that.

At least think about it.

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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 11:47:49 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: Think straight
Message:
Jer,

I am not trying to 'justify' anyone's actions, as you put it. I am trying to understand how and why it all went down the way it did, from different perpsectives. It's giving me a headache.

Personally, I am appalled at the whole mess. Those who knew, whoever they are, are in part responsible for any subsequent actions and also for not stopping Jagdeo immediately and seeing that some sort of solace and comfort be given to the victimized children and their families, premies all.
This is a very poor example from the guides of EV on how we treat one another.
Honesty is the best policy.
Shp

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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 15:18:24 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Re: Think straight
Message:
So you think that Maharaji was just trying to prevent more 'suffering in the universe' by letting Jagdeo roam free, under the guise of a 'great soul', so he could continue hurting children. No wonder you have a headache. Thinking like that would give anybody one.
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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 16:47:26 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Get off it, Jer.
Message:
Jerry,
You are twisting my words and perverting my meaning in your interpretation.
Let's stop this squabbling and pay attention to what's going on here.
Shp
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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 17:11:47 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Re: Get off it, Jer.
Message:
I'm just trying to point out the lengths you're willing to go, in your thinking, to vindicate Maharaji.

You get off it.

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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 17:50:48 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: Get off it, Jer.
Message:
Jerry,

I know a hell of a lot more after these past few days than I knew before and because of what I have learned I feel differently about Maharaji and EV than I did before.

I am not trying to vindicate Maharaji. I realize there have been gross injustices done to little children
at the hands of some of Maharaji's most trusted disciples, Jagdeo in particular as focussed on here.
I also realize that at least three of his most trust knew about Jagdeo's crimes and did not stop him as soon as they could have or should have. I also find it extremely difficult to believe that Maharaji knew absolutely nothing about it, given the story of Susan and her dialog with Judy Osborne concerning same.

I am here on my own time. I've got shit piled up from work, personal mail, family stuff, and my life in general on hold so far most all of this weekend due to the extremely sensitive nature of Abi's story and the subsequent postings, and how it is affecting me. I have been strongly advised (going way back to my earlier time here posting) to stay away from here by some premies. So don't fuck around with me. I am guiding on my own heart. If you doubt me, my motives, or anything about me, go right ahead. Just keep it to yourself, because I don't need it. got enough on my plate right now.
Go pick meat off something dead.
I am still kicking.
Shp

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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 19:03:05 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Are you still a premie?
Message:
Sandy: There's my question to you. Confront it head-on. The Jagdeo story is but one of many different facets of M's personal and organizational short-comings. Neither he nor his organizations are what they purport to be. That's what we've been trying to get across. His actions in this regard are totally indefensible. I do not see how someone could continue to participate in EV, or to follow his 'instruction' or whatever it is he does these days, knowing this information. There is no possible justification. He did know, Sandy. Are you disentangling yourself? Have you cancelled your monthly contributions to EV? That would be a first step, and write them a letter telling them why you are doing it. Get your premie friends to do the same. How can you provide financial support to EV under these circumstances?

So ends today's cross-examination. I am not trying to be mean, Sandy. I'm just asking you to behave in a manner consistent with your expressed beliefs. I hope any lurking premies who are outraged about this (how can you not be?) will also vote with their pocketbooks. Be an example, Sandy, and make it public here, as Augustina has so courageously done.

Marianne

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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 22:21:10 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: Are you still a premie?
Message:
Marianne,

I don't know who Augustina is, and I really don't respond well to peer group pressure. But I had every intention of answering you anyway. As I have said earlier, I don't do alter calls anymore. My life has been changing ever since I first came here months ago. I don't feel the need to announce my every change and realization unless someone asks. I used to think it all out loud here on this site and was told by a pretty angry bunch of exers to take it elsewhere. So I did. I took it inside myself.

I have not practiced Knowledge very much, have not given any money to EV, and have not gone to see Maharaji live or on tape for months. I'd say I've been in this state since I first heard about gmom's experience and AJW's journey reference to the Denver Unity school. It took a very short time to sink in and take effect. This is me. Always was me. I am for real, and going through what I have to go through the way I am going through it, just like you and all the rest. Can't judge a book by its cover.

None of the other 'dirt' about Maharaji had the same effect on me as the child abuse thing. That was my button. Business bullshit, private personal stuff, all that is on one level and subject to much opinion. Kids are special and most precious, and there is no lattitude for child abuse.

Now do you see me?

Shp

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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 22:32:43 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: I'd say you were about to bail
Message:
Sandy: There is no peer group pressure in my post. It's only me asking sincere questions. I am glad that you have not been an active participant in EV for some time, and I am heartened that you put such detailed information on F4 about your waning participation, especially the lack of financial support. The child abuse issue is very compelling, but those who leave each find some fact or incident, or series of same, which pushes them over the edge. You can never tell what it will be. That is why this site discusses all varieties of information about M.

I wish you would make known to EV in an official way why you have withdrawn your financial support so that they would be forced to take this more seriously.

Thank you for your response.

As for the Cat post, only he can say what he really meant. I understand him to be complaining that some posts were deleted during a Paradise glitch and that he thinks there were nefarious reasons for it. I cannot understand why he would say this since all the posts were highly critical of M and EV. One might speculate that M and his henchmen (people) had a hand in it rather than the Forum Administration. Also, Cat has nothing to say about Jagdeo, just the complaints about the posts. All form, no substance.

Marianne

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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 23:08:12 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Bail, shmail, why give it a name?
Message:
Marianne,

I was planning to communicate with EV again along the lines of what you said.

The experience I went for in the first place, the Knowledge, is still my desired focus. But it has been temporarily blurred by all this, what with Maharaji and/or some of his most trusted assistants sitting on this scandal for so many years. I am working on refocussing on what is true within me and putting all this relatively new information (21 years with Knowledge / 6 months or so on this site) into perspective. I believe I can have inner peace and not be affiliated with anything that is antithetical to it. What form it will take I don't know yet. I am open to the divine grace and guidance that was with me all my life to continue to guide me to higher consciousness and more love, for that is my heart's desire.

Edmund Burke said: 'Evil flourishes where good people do nothing.'

Quotes like that turn me on, make me want to be 'good people' and not let evil flourish in my sphere of influence. It's in my genes to be this way. Sometimes I have asked myself, 'How come you are hanging out here on this ex site? There aren't any other premies getting so involved...why you?
Go back where you belong and don't make waves.' And then my God-given genes kick in and, as I said earlier, I don't respond well to peer pressure, even from my own head.

So when all the dust clears and all the petty bickering on this site has faded from memory, let it be said that a group of caring people with many diverse beliefs got together to help protect children from abuse, and right wrongs that have already been committed and have remained unresolved for years.
Shp

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Date: Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 17:23:34 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Re: Bail, shmail, why give it a name?
Message:
Dear Sandy,
Reading your post here gave me goose bumps, spiritual experience, was it you who said that? I don't know but some kind of kindred recognition for sure.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 23:17:39 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Thanks for the post
Message:
Sandy: I have no need to name anything -- this is my perception, wrong or right. Please do communicate with EV.

Marianne

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Date: Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 23:56:03 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: You are welcome
Message:
Hey Marianne,

I have been feeling this little bit of uptightness in our dialog, where one of us uses a term and the other takes issue with it - you as the former and me as the latter - like we are circling each other, some trust built, but a ways to go. Well, I'd like it if we could stop circling, face each other and have cyber-eye contact and let it flow more.

The peer pressure I picked up on from your words - not to imply that what you meant it as - was saying to step up like Augustina did. Obviously, that's not how you meant it, but can understand how I might have seen it as such.

The 'bail' thing is also something that I associate negativity with. That's not necessarily your doing, But once again, I am sure you can understand how I could have taken it that way. Ambiguituy.

From having helped deliver our two sons, watching my brother pass away before my eyes, and a few other intense moments, I have learned to appreciate life, not just mine, but everyone's.

From having been trained in First Aid as a coach, I realize that I am and have been in a limited state
of shock for some time over what's being discusssed here. I have to go slow now to stay focussed and calm.

Shp

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