Forum IV: The Ex-Premie Forum
Archive: 7
From: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 To: Wed, Oct 20, 1999 Page: 2 Of: 5


LdM -:- Re: A cult of a different kind -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 17:03:25 (EDT)
__ Helen -:- Re: A cult of a different kind -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 23:21:14 (EDT)
__ __ Marianne -:- Hey there, Helen! -:- Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 11:10:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ Helen -:- Re: Hey there, Helen! -:- Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 16:53:07 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- God, sometimes I wonder ... could that have been me? -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 22:44:23 (EDT)
__ __ gerry -:- Yes you can delete your own post -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 22:49:42 (EDT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- But how do I delete Catweasel's posts? (nt) -:- Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 18:32:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ Susan -:- I never knew that! Thanks ! (nt) -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 23:09:59 (EDT)
__ girlzone -:- Re: A cult of a different kind -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 19:57:42 (EDT)
__ __ Runamok -:- Re: A cult of a different kind -:- Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 00:13:27 (EDT)
__ __ nimzone -:- you're no zone sweetie!! -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 23:10:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ grrlzone -:- Re: you're no zone sweetie!! -:- Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 00:31:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Joey -:- Re: you're no zone sweetie!! -:- Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 00:45:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ grrlzone -:- Re: you're no zone sweetie!! -:- Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 00:57:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Re: you're no zone sweetie!! -:- Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 01:10:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ grrlzone -:- Re: you're no zone sweetie!! -:- Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 03:07:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ girlzone -:- Re: you're no zone sweetie!! -:- Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 00:08:03 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Mary M -:- Empathy -:- Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 09:39:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ grrlzone -:- Re: Empathy -:- Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 18:20:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Amtext Man -:- Re: Empathy -:- Fri, Oct 15, 1999 at 01:37:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Joey -:- Re: you're no zone sweetie!! -:- Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 00:35:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ grrlzone -:- Re: you're no zone sweetie!! -:- Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 01:02:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Re: you're no zone sweetie!! -:- Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 01:21:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- Joey... -:- Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 00:42:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Re: Susan -:- Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 00:52:00 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- what is wrong with you Joey? -:- Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 14:28:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Re: Joey... -:- Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 00:51:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ grrlzone -:- Re: Joey... -:- Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 18:35:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- Joeyzone -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 23:35:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Ex Poet -:- Re: gerryzone -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 23:52:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ grrlzone -:- Re: gerryzone -:- Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 00:49:42 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Ex Poet -:- Re: gerryzone -:- Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 00:56:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ grrlzone -:- Re: gerryzone -:- Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 03:34:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- I wish everyone wold use their real names -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 23:58:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Re: I wish everyone wold use their real names -:- Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 19:45:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ grrlzone -:- Re: I wish everyone wold use their real names -:- Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 20:57:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Re: I wish everyone wold use their real names -:- Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 21:51:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Or at least the same pseudonym! Please! -:- Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 15:40:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- thanks Katie -:- Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 18:03:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Mary M -:- OK -:- Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 09:56:51 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Re: OK -:- Fri, Oct 15, 1999 at 18:54:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Blackdog -:- Re: I wish everyone wold use their real names -:- Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 01:47:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Raoul -:- Re: I wish everyone wold use their real names -:- Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 01:52:48 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Raoul -:- Re: I wish everyone wold use their real names -:- Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 02:00:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Miguel -:- Re: I wish everyone wold use their real names -:- Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 01:53:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Miguel -:- Re: I wish everyone wold use their real names -:- Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 02:03:31 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Kermit -:- Re: I wish everyone wold use their real names -:- Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 01:54:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Ex Poet -:- No need to be confused. -:- Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 00:11:51 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Ex Poet -:- PS: To gerryzone -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 23:58:27 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Ex Poet -:- PS: To gerryzone -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 23:57:51 (EDT)

Roger eDrek -:- Visions Big Blowout Inventory Sale! -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 15:14:20 (EDT)
__ Sir Dave -:- I like this bit -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 19:07:32 (EDT)
__ Clarence Darrow -:- Re: Visions Big Blowout Inventory Sale! -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 15:42:29 (EDT)
__ JW -:- They Can't Even Give That Crap Away -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 15:34:24 (EDT)
__ __ Grace -:- Re: They Can't Even Give That Crap Away -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 21:18:48 (EDT)
__ __ __ girlzone -:- left-over brainwashing -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 22:25:15 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Charlie (CdM) -:- Re: SingalongaDLM -:- Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 05:16:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Hey, Charlie, can we find this guy? -:- Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 21:53:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Charlie -:- Re: Hey, Charlie, can we find this guy? -:- Fri, Oct 15, 1999 at 05:28:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- Best of forum! ? (nt) -:- Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 11:48:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- ROGER-BEST OF????? -:- Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 14:02:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ grrlzone -:- Re: left-over brainwashing -:- Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 05:26:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ JW -:- Makes Sense -:- Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 02:05:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ grrlzone -:- Re: Makes Sense -:- Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 05:16:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ nimzone -:- left over dementia as well -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 23:37:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ grrlzone -:- Re: left over dementia as well -:- Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 00:35:42 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Re: left over dementia as well -:- Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 02:09:31 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Re: left over dementia as well -:- Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 13:40:27 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ grrlzone -:- Re: left over dementia as well -:- Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 03:49:56 (EDT)

Enough -:- Visions Clearance Sale -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 14:52:32 (EDT)
__ Roger eDrek -:- Synchronicity Deluxe! -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 15:17:14 (EDT)
__ __ Enough -:- Re: Synchronicity Deluxe! -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 15:25:12 (EDT)

Grace -:- Drugs & Premies -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 13:04:32 (EDT)
__ girlzone -:- Re: Drugs & Premies -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 20:20:37 (EDT)
__ toby4u -:- Re: Drugs & Premies -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 16:45:08 (EDT)
__ Hope -:- Re: Drugs & Premies -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 16:32:25 (EDT)
__ JW -:- Re: Drugs & Premies -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 15:41:26 (EDT)
__ LdM -:- Re: Drugs & Premies -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 15:36:19 (EDT)
__ __ URL -:- Re: Drugs & Premies -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 16:55:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Then why would Maharaji smoke pot? -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 22:12:34 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jethro -:- I think it was Mike Donner who told me that.... -:- Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 02:55:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ Blissful ex-premie -:- Cut the Crap URL -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 19:10:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ URL -:- Re: Cut the Crap URL -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 20:12:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ LdM -:- Re:You've got it wrong URL -:- Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 04:04:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ LdM -:- Re: To URL re drugs & premies -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 18:22:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ URL -:- Re: To URL re drugs & premies -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 19:56:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- The answer's simple, Url -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 22:23:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Re: The answer's simple, Url -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 22:41:16 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- It works? -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 21:26:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ URL -:- Yeah, it works -:- Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 13:35:53 (EDT)
__ URL -:- Re: Drugs & Premies -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 14:06:17 (EDT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- Re: Drugs & Premies -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 14:22:20 (EDT)
__ __ __ URL -:- Re: Drugs & Premies -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 14:49:59 (EDT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Re: Drugs & Premies -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 14:03:51 (EDT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Drugs & Premies, and more -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 13:33:04 (EDT)
__ __ girlzone -:- Re: Drugs & Premies, and more -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 20:43:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ Grace -:- Re: Drugs & Premies, and more -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 21:02:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Susan -:- Re: Drugs & Premies, and more -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 22:46:40 (EDT)

Catweasel -:- I'm coming, and yes it FEELS GOOD!! -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 12:14:23 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- Forum administrator ??? -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 22:02:49 (EDT)
__ __ Catweasel the Gentle -:- Re: Forum administrator ??? -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 23:21:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- This is exactly what I mean -:- Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 00:03:02 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Shp -:- Jim, Cat, Gerry -:- Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 09:24:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Catweasel -:- Re: Jim, Cat, Gerry -:- Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 09:38:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Catweasel -:- Re: This is exactly what I mean -:- Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 00:33:28 (EDT)
__ Sharon Stone -:- That's What All The Guys Say (nt) -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 15:51:59 (EDT)
__ __ Sister Helen Wheels -:- You Are A Hussy and A Slut -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 16:23:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ Sharon Stone -:- You Wish You Were, Sister Perpetual Agony (nt) -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 17:20:14 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Nicole Kidman -:- Bitch! -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 19:00:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Sharon 'Bust Your': Stone -:- Tom's Not So Hot, And I Should Know -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 20:32:28 (EDT)
__ Sister Mary Mae Hem -:- Don't Forget To Wash Your Hands Afterwards -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 15:49:22 (EDT)
__ Onyx the Cat -:- Where are you coming? -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 12:41:04 (EDT)
__ __ Tami Sunshine Rainbow -:- In Hiz pantz (gigle) -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 19:02:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ Onyx the Cat -:- Re: In Hiz pantz (gigle) -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 19:15:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Catweasel -:- Re: In Hiz pantz (gigle) -:- Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 03:03:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Onyx the Cat -:- Re: In Hiz pantz (gigle) -:- Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 10:57:47 (EDT)


Date: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 17:03:25 (EDT)
From: LdM
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Re: A cult of a different kind
Message:
I don't know whether this is on or off topic, but it interested me anyway, on account of some of the cult like aspects which I saw in this documentary last night - by chance. It was called Slaves in Paradise on Channel 4. I wonder whether anyone else saw it last night? If you did, what did you think of it?

For those who didn't see it, this was a summary of the programme in the Radio Times magazine:

'During the last 30 years, more than 600 people left the outside world to take part in a social and sexual experiment. The Friedrichsof Commune in Austria set out to challenge every aspect of conventional behaviour - materialism was condemned, the nuclear family banished, the couple relationship forbidden. Men and women would liberate themselves through limitless amounts of sex, art and therapy. Those who still live there today speak out in this programme'.

They started off with the premise that they would film their progress, so they used some of their archives for the programme. At first it seemed to be about a group of people with no particular leader who were anti everything that was conventional. They talked about the freedom that they felt, how everyone was sleeping with a different person every night - and several other different people during the day as well! I couldn't work out how they managed to get any work done. They must have been exhausted! Very soon, however, we were told of a man named Otto Moon, who was the person at the heart of this commune. He believed that a lot of sex was therapeutic, as well as having group and art therapy. He led the way and everyone followed him unquestioningly - all the women wanted to have sex with him, he had a rota worked out by a secretary, of women whom he had to sleep with each night. However, it all started getting out of hand - diseases of all kinds were rife and the authorities started to get on their case.

So, these people who had shunned society and left their families and loved ones behind to join the commune, now agreed to create a hierarchical structure with a numbering system. The idea was that when you began you started at the bottom and tried to get as close to no. 1 as possible. No 1. was Otto.

Anyway, as funds became low it was decided that some of the followers must go out into the big, bad world to get jobs to finance the commune, and because of what they called their acquired knowledge of human beings and human nature, they were very successful in selling, as estate agents, stockbrokers etc.,. Every penny went back to the commune. One woman, who is still in it today, said that she singlehandedly earned a million dollars for the commune over the years! In many cases there were several members all at work for the same company. Because they didn't want to be suspected, they had an intricate plan of timing so that members would leave for work and return home at staggered times. To complicate matters it was deemed necessary for each person to have sex at lunch time so they had to each return home for sexual intercourse as well as their sandwiches. One woman recalled how some of the men tried to shirk their duties - they would eat their lunch and then try to go back to work in a hurry. But this was prevented by having someone to guard the front door!

The money that was coming in was supposed to be for the upkeep of the many commune babies that were being born. But also it was used for Otto and his entourage of favourite women, to live the high life - drugs and good living. Those who were going out to work started to get resentful.

Things started to go really wrong when the many children reached the age of puberty. In the commune sexuality had always been encouraged amongst children. At 14, the age of consent in Austria, the children were allowed to have sex with one another and with the adults. However some were under the age of 14 and some of the mothers were not happy about sending their daughters to have sex with Otto (who was by now in his 60s). Otto's housekeeper told of a time when a girl was more or less dragged to Otto's room so that he could have sex with her and of how they locked the door. It was rape. And the housekeeper said that there were other times as well. She was clearly emotional while recounting these episodes. It was the closest to criticism from any former member of the commune that I saw during the whole programme.

Eventually, Otto was arrested and jailed for 7 years on 2 counts of child molestation/abuse. The commune fell apart in his absence. But the women who had been the closest to him - his favourites - seemed unable to leave the group. He did his time but is totally unrepentant. He feels he was judged by society's values which he never respected anyway. Today he has moved to Portugal where he has started up once again, living with a commune made up of some old pals and some new young recruits. He's now in his seventies and suffering with Parkinson's disease but still gets a good ration of arse and tit every day. Again it looks like children could be involved.

Back at the old HQ there are a few members who still remain. They say they are unable to fully integrate with society but they can no longer live in the old way either.

I was surprised that I had never heard of this group before until yesterday. They had been living in a totally closed society. After the programme, I went on the Internet and looked them up on Altavista and The Main Directory of Cult Awareness but there was absolutely no reference to them.

Seeing this guy up to his old ways again made me reflect on the Jagdeo business.

Lee

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Date: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 23:21:14 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: LdM
Subject: Re: A cult of a different kind
Message:
That is quite a story, Lee. Thanks for telling it. I'm somewhat speechless--it's one thing for consenting adults to choose this lifestyle but quite another to have children damaged like this. I don't know who I detest more, Otto, or the parents who allowed their daughters to be raped like this by this creep. Then again they all had to be pretty damn brainwashed.

Totally off topic again but not really, anyone see the movie 'Matrix'? I finally saw it, I am always way behind on movies, For some reason I couldn't buy into the premise for the life of me. The premise was as absurd as someone telling you that a 13 year old little fat kid is the Lord of the Universe & he is beautiful and that anyone who doesn't surrender to him and get his knowledge is hopelessly in their mind. What a coo-coo set up. Can't believe I bought into it.
Puttiin alot of miles between me and the guru and loving it,
Helen

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Date: Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 11:10:43 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Hey there, Helen!
Message:
Helen: Hi there! How are you doing? I'm very happy to see you re-surface. It sounds as though the visits you've had with the other ex's have been great. Robyn is headed to SF for Thanksgiving, so I expect to see her on my doorstep too.

Love, Marianne

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Date: Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 16:53:07 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: Hey there, Helen!
Message:
Yes I have resurfaced but I don't have much time to keep up with this jumpin' place. Certain post titles are irresistable though!
I'm up to my eyeballs with mommy stuff and job hunting as the research study I have been working on ends at the end of November, very sad to have to leave my job as I love it but the $ just won't be there ):

Fall in DC is beautiful.
Yes the ex-premie gathering was fun. I definitely prefer real life interaction over cyberspace interaction.
I am jealous you will get to see Robyn, hope you & JW all have fun, wish I could be there too!! Hope you have a wonderful time together.
Love
Helen

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Date: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 22:44:23 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: God, sometimes I wonder ... could that have been me?
Message:
Just kidding.

Hey, is there any way to remove this post?

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Date: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 22:49:42 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yes you can delete your own post
Message:
Click on 'edit this message' and delete everything from the message field and it's a goner. You can't delete the other fields, although you can change them to nonsense. You have to do it in the time limit for editing, though.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 18:32:29 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: gerry
Subject: But how do I delete Catweasel's posts? (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 23:09:59 (EDT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: I never knew that! Thanks ! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 19:57:42 (EDT)
From: girlzone
Email: None
To: LdM
Subject: Re: A cult of a different kind
Message:
I didn't see the documentary you've described but I've met many children who were brought up in sects and subjected to sexual abuse. Seems that the pursuit of a libertarian ethos often means embracing pedophilia. Most sects just seem to reflect the sexual dynamics of the straight world. Attempts to create a libertarian outside to the straight world just seem to reproduce the sexual (or economic, or emotional) repression of women and children. It's because these sects are so hierarchical and pivot around a male godhead. So of course there's going to be abuse. It's a sad thing when a mother gets so fucked up that she doesn't know how to protect her own children. My guess is that a lot of people who join sects have been sexually abused in the past anyway. If not sexually abused then damaged by their families of origin. The sect offers an alternative family, a space in which the primary wounds can be worked through and healed. Trouble is when you're damaged your boundaries are all messed up and you don't know what's good for you (or your children). So you tend to get re-abused until you either have a breakdown or a breakthrough.
The children are the real victims in all of this though. They don't have a choice. How can they trust after that, how can they believe in love when they were abused in the name of Love? Their humanity is denied. Some survive, some don't.
And why doesn't the evil EV empire produce Jagdeo? Maybe because the whole group is swarming with pervs. It's time they were sent down. It's time they fell.
But how do we bring them down? How do we get really fuck up the organisation?
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Date: Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 00:13:27 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: girlzone
Subject: Re: A cult of a different kind
Message:
I think that's true that people who were attracted to Mirage have some kind of abuse that they are continuing by their newfound 'relationship'. But it's a little unfair to see it as rekindling the same old male-dominated stuff.

After all, you have a zillion horny dudes who opted for celibacy. Jagdeo is abhorrent and he had his matches amongst the 'great souls', but most guys did not take 'advantage' of premiedom for any kind of expanded sexual experience (much less one that victimized women or children).

It's truly abhorrent when children are victimized and it does overshadow the other abuses of our cult in sheer ugliness.

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Date: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 23:10:53 (EDT)
From: nimzone
Email: None
To: girlzone
Subject: you're no zone sweetie!!
Message:
Its very obvious what you are attempting to do with your post, and that is so totally obfiscate, confuse, minimize and provide disinformation on the issue of use and abuse in m's cult ...in particular the sexual abuse, and you cannot deny that as you conclude with your reference to 'Jagdeo.'

The principal cause of use and abuse in m's cult is m himself . He is fundamentally abusive in nature and has no capacity for change as he is totally driven by an insatiable greed and an almost a junkie like desire for total devotion from his followers, and their subjection to his will and his principles.
Here is where the great problem occurs.
Maharaji has NO principles
and,
Maharaji's will is primarily for himself and those he considers to be his closest accomplices in perpetuating his fraud that he actually has something to offer mankind, when in fact ,he doesn't .
What therefor substitutes for principles in m's world is that which will again bring the greatest benefit to himself and his closest accomplices in any situation. And it is HERE in the primary will and the lack of any ethically or morally based principles that govern his actions, that the foundation for use and abuse is set by m himself. And thats been the problem, and that continues to be the problem.
This is what cults are all about, and thats exactly what m and his premies are.... A HARMFUL CULT. And if there are accomplices who somehow derive a pervertd enjoyment in the benefits that they derive...there are far greater numbers who are being victimized.

Ok lets take a look at your sleaze and slime that you've given us here.

My guess is that a lot of people who join sects have been sexually abused in the past anyway.

What would be relevant to our discussion would be to know in the situations of thise who have come forward with their testimonies. So far I haven't heard anyone making references to prior episodes of sexual abuse...have you?

If not sexually abused then damaged by their families of origin.

Yes, there's alot of disfunctionalism out there, and people are learning , that is what HARMFUL CULTS prey on.

The sect offers an alternative family, a space in which the primary wounds can be worked through and healed.

Bullshit!! A HARMFUL CULT such as m's is a vehicule for for him enriching himself, and imposing his will on his followers which is to submit to his morally and ethically devoid standards in any situaton. Its about his well being and not yours sweetie.

Trouble is when you're damaged your boundaries are all
messed up and you don't know what's good for you (or your children). So you tend to get re-abused until you either have a breakdown or a breakthrough.

Yup you're a sleazy, slimy bitch of a gopi coming on here and echoing m's 'blame the victim philosophy' and thats all.
Have you heard him say this one in one of the videos?

There are people who come to me and say,
'Maharaji, you know there are people who are playing with my head.'
And all I can think of saying to them is,really,
'Well maybe if you didn't have such a big head...PEOPLE WOULDN'T WANT TO PLAY WITH IT?!

Sure, like he never has anything to do with it. Like I said you, are what you are.

The children are the real victims in all of this though. They don't have a choice. How can they trust after that, how can they believe in love when they were abused in the name of Love?.

FUCK YOU right to hell and back for denying the truth.
They were not abused 'in the name of Love'.

In most cases Maharaji had already known about Jagdeo but swept it under the carpet, and Jagdeo continued on his perverted path abusing and creating victims of others who would not have been victimized, had m cared about anything other than what was BEST FOR M.
They were NOT victimized in the name of love...they were victimized in the name of a fraud.
We would sing ' You are my mother, and you are my father you are my all, my lord for me.'
And we thought he would love us ,and some still do when all this guy really is, is a potentially dangerous psychotic who really only loves himself.

And why doesn't the evil EV empire produce Jagdeo?

Its a matter of trying to avoid a public and generally accepted judgement that would reflect so poorly on his stnking little cult. You know that ...you're just trying to deny it.

Maybe because the whole group is swarming with pervs.
Maybe, YOU'RE a perv!

Again with your bullshit spun out guesses?! Ya right!
There's only one MAIN pervert here and a select few of his accomplices that are responsible. Maharaji's the principal pervert...remember its his own self deception and his failure to do the right thing which set the basis for Jagdeo and others to continue doing their thing.

It's time they were sent down. It's time they fell.
But how do we bring them down?

Ya, ya, ya...like you really care. You cunt!!

But how do we bring them down? How do we get really fuck up the organisation?

We got something else to think about here...and that is ....how do we bring YOU down? How do we fuck YOU up so you don't continue with your sleazebag attempts to fuck the truth coming out on this forum.

You're like a fucking nightmare!!
But it'll come to an end.
Promise.

It's time they were sent down. It's time they fell.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 00:31:49 (EDT)
From: grrlzone
Email: None
To: nimzone
Subject: Re: you're no zone sweetie!!
Message:
I feel a bit calmer now. I think you've misunderstood me. I wasn't excusing M or saying that cults are not harmful. Just trying to think of why it is that people fall into them.And I know of quite a few premies who have been sexually abused as children.
Men who call women 'cunts' are disgusting. I pity any woman you get involved with. Any here's a kick in the balls from me. That is if you actually have any.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 00:45:08 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: grrlzone
Subject: Re: you're no zone sweetie!!
Message:
Wow this almost like real time...a first for me on the forum.

I've just posted you below.

And I do apologize for my use of the 'c' word but boy oh boy do you remind me of someone!

In any case would you care to answe the post below?

Ya, I'm calmer too now.

So lets do it

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Date: Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 00:57:10 (EDT)
From: grrlzone
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Re: you're no zone sweetie!!
Message:
You need to drop your paranoia and recognise that other people (in this case me) have feelings. You made me shake I was hurting so much. Does that make you feel like a big boy? Don't be such a bully.
I'm not going to share what happened to me with someone so abusive. I came into this space in order to deal with abuse not to be abused. But I'm not going to just sit here and take it.
And just becuse I reminded you of someone is just no excuse to call me a cunt. No woman deserves to be called a cunt. So try to get your act together.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 01:10:01 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: grrlzone
Subject: Re: you're no zone sweetie!!
Message:
I came into this space in order to deal with abuse not to be abused.

Well i guess we've arrived at the crux of the matter, because I really didn't get that kind of feeling from you.

In fact I have a difficult time in understanding how any one really be willing to deal with the issue of abuse in m's cult , by so overlooking m's own role in it.

So this will be the second time I apologize to you...and since you find me so abusive, I'll allow to carry on your whatever you want to call it you're doing here... with the others.

Besr wishes, really.

And we'll see how together YOUR act is.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 03:07:41 (EDT)
From: grrlzone
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Re: you're no zone sweetie!!
Message:
I have never excused M for his part in it all.
Got the message now? Is that clear?

Good luck with whatever you think YOU'RE doing in this space.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 00:08:03 (EDT)
From: girlzone
Email: None
To: nimzone
Subject: Re: you're no zone sweetie!!
Message:
I was raped as a child by a Mahatma. My whole life was fucked up by a bunch of creepy premies. How fucking dare you give me all that shit. I guess I must have touched a few raw nerves for you.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 09:39:40 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: girlzone
Subject: Empathy
Message:
Dear Girl Zone,

Participants of this forum are thinking you are me. Please excuse any lack of empathy.

I just want to let you know that Susan (G's mom), Anth, Katie, and Marianne are helping victims deal with this issue offline. I hope you contact one of them and I know they will help you walk this minefield of memories.

Take Care,
Mary M

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Date: Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 18:20:10 (EDT)
From: grrlzone
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: Re: Empathy
Message:
Dear much maligned Mary,
thanks for that. I'm in touch with those people already.

As for the abuse by proxy you got from this Joey character - nothing you've done deserves that sort of crap. This man needs to get some manners and practice a little self-control. What a cyberbully!

(Did you read that Joey? Course you did.)

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Date: Fri, Oct 15, 1999 at 01:37:44 (EDT)
From: Amtext Man
Email: None
To: grrlzone
Subject: Re: Empathy
Message:
Joey takes things too seriously. Ignore him. Most of us do. I enjoy your posts:).
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Date: Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 00:35:52 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: girlzone
Subject: Re: you're no zone sweetie!!
Message:
If you can give up the dramatics and tell us your story, I'm sure there are a lot of people who would like to hear it. Not the dramatics, but the story.

And before you even begin, here's a question that I'd like to see you answer.

If you were so victimized by this cult, how could you come here echoing what truly sounds as m's 'blame the victim ' philosophy, or in other words...blame anyone but m himself??

Oh, and if you don't mind ...what does the word denial mean to you?
Good luck, and I hope you're feeling better:)

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Date: Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 01:02:24 (EDT)
From: grrlzone
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Re: you're no zone sweetie!!
Message:
I'm not sharing that experience with you. You don't know how to read for a start. And I never once suggested that I was espousing M claptrap or more to the point suggesting that victims are to blame. I was trying to think through why it is that people get hooked into cults. Is that basic enough for you?
As for denial...how dare you respond in such a fucking nasty way. I just told you I was raped and you tell me I'm in denial about the cult! Get real boy.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 01:21:09 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: grrlzone
Subject: Re: you're no zone sweetie!!
Message:
I've aleady said goodby to you.
I read your post very well and it was the really the final part that concerned me.

Now you might want to reread it.

In any case for the second time...goodbye and goodluck.

PS. I'm a very real person. I'm posting under my own name.
I'm sure people will be looking to you becoming a little more real than grrlzone.

But as for us ....its goodby and goodluck!

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Date: Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 00:42:29 (EDT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Joey...
Message:
Joey, please go back and reread the original post that made you so angry. I do not see anything of the sort that you are describing.

I think that what girlzone was saying about some of the cult members having been abused as children could be true. Many of us were vulnerable to the cult because our lives were not the greatest to begin with. That isn't blaming the victim.

I think you need to maybe apologize to girlzone.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 00:52:00 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Re: Susan
Message:
Susan,

Nice to hear from you and I swear I will rerad the original post as soon as girlzone gives me time.
Please note I've already apologized to her for the use of certain inappropriate language and I'm attempting to conduct a more reasonable dialogue with her in other posts.

thank you for thinking of me,

Joey

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Date: Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 14:28:38 (EDT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: what is wrong with you Joey?
Message:
Dear Joey,

I am reading this over from yesterday trying to understand what made you so NASTY and HORRIBLE to Girlzone. Obviously you thought she was Mary. She isn't by the way.

I am not your momma, but Joey, if I were I would tell you this is a real 'learning opportunity'. Look at how nasty you were to someone who totally did not deserve it. What made you call her those names? Even if she had been Mary, what was the point?

I think many of your posts are fabulous. But this capacity you have to fly off the handle is really scary. I cannot trust you because of this. What is going on? Why does this happen? Seriously.

Here comes Girlzone, checking out the forum, and she is attacked verbally her first adventure here. Not by a premie, by an ex, confirming the premie view we are a bunch of looneys anyway. Sadly, I think there are ex premie looneys. But what I do not get is why some of your posts are beautiful and sensitive and others are viscious. What is going on Joey?

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Date: Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 00:51:29 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Re: Joey...
Message:
Susan,

Nice to hear from you and I swear I will rerad the original post as soon as girlzone gives me time.
Please note I've already apologized to her for the use of certain inappropriate language and I'm attempting to conduct a more reasonable dialogue with her in other posts.

thank you for thinking of me,

Joey

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Date: Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 18:35:11 (EDT)
From: grrlzone
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Re: Joey...
Message:
I've heard that you're actually not a totally bad person. I've read some of your earlier posts which seem to confirm that too.
Start again? A slow pace toward each other across the smoking battle field?
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Date: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 23:35:17 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: nimzone
Subject: Joeyzone
Message:
Do you really think girlzone is Mary McGraw? Well maybe she is, but how do you know?

What if it isn't Mary? I think you are interpreting her statements awfully harshly.

Shall I direct you to www.heartmath.com?

Lighten up dude (and I take it all back if it really is Mary.)

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Date: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 23:52:33 (EDT)
From: Ex Poet
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: gerryzone
Message:
This ain't no tightrope
And I'm no Wilenda
Just keep an eye
on her sleazy agenda.

And Mili isn't Grace, nor is Grace Mili
Anymore than Jim comes from Chile.
This isnt about going to trial
But watch out for that deniseial.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 00:49:42 (EDT)
From: grrlzone
Email: None
To: Ex Poet
Subject: Re: gerryzone
Message:
What is it with you paranoid boys?
What do you fear?
Feeling flaccid?
Castration anxiety?
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Date: Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 00:56:49 (EDT)
From: Ex Poet
Email: None
To: grrlzone
Subject: Re: gerryzone
Message:
I knew it! I knew it!!
I said it right!
Like my Uncle Max said,
She's all TZEDREIT!
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Date: Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 03:34:45 (EDT)
From: grrlzone
Email: None
To: Ex Poet
Subject: Re: gerryzone
Message:
So many defiantly erect exclamation marks but so little substance...
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Date: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 23:58:58 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Ex Poet
Subject: I wish everyone wold use their real names
Message:
Liked the poem, thanks! Now to make things even weirder...Bobby, Grace, Mili, and Enough all have the exact same browser type! And even I know they're not all the same person. Whip me a little, I learn.

Is Denise Mary M? Oy, it so complicated. But it's nice to hear from Bobby and Helen again. Now if Mike would only come back...

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Date: Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 19:45:58 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: I wish everyone wold use their real names
Message:
Dear Gerry,
Mike, Happy and Miloochie(sp). One of my problems being here anymore is that I don't know who so many people are and it is so hard to get to know who anyone is because there are so many changes in names!
Dear Girlzone,
I said welcome to you someplace else but hadn't realized you'd been given such a rough start here. Sorry about that and also about the abuse you had to endure as a child. So sorry.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 20:57:09 (EDT)
From: grrlzone
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Re: I wish everyone wold use their real names
Message:
Dear Robyn,
thanks for your welcome and your sensitivity. I think we both know Anth the fearless EV toe cutter.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 21:51:41 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: grrlzone
Subject: Re: I wish everyone wold use their real names
Message:
Dear Grrzone,
Yes, and did you know I just made Anth the Queen? I gave him 3 birthdays and one thing I've learned here is that the Queen of England claims multiple birthdays, duh, like who does she think is going to buy that! Anyway, Long Live Anth the EV Toe Cutter!
You may have already noticed that I do mostly off topic stuff. I was a premie and so have gained membership privileges here and I do get fired up when I hear other peoples accounts of neglect and cruelty and the latest to come to my attention, sexual abuse.
Thanks for braving the rough waves here and telling your story.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 15:40:41 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Or at least the same pseudonym! Please!
Message:
Hey Gerry -
(I miss Mike too, BTW). I can understand why some people on here don't use their real names, but as long as they use the same pseudonym all the time, that's OK with me. What drives me nuts are all these people who talk to themselves using different pseudonyms. (This has driven at least one person off the forum - it's too damn confusing for many of us.)
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Date: Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 18:03:54 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: thanks Katie
Message:
I used Dr Runamok ONCE in my whole forum existence (unless you want to count the sheep forum- but I don't think so.

I notice people make up pseudonyms to get nastier when a fight drags out. Real rank stuff.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 09:56:51 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: OK
Message:
No Gerry. I'm not Denise.

Mary

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Date: Fri, Oct 15, 1999 at 18:54:05 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: Re: OK
Message:
I never said you were. Don't try to pin that on me you phony.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 01:47:26 (EDT)
From: Blackdog
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: I wish everyone wold use their real names
Message:
Now to make things even weirder...Bobby, Grace, Mili, and Enough all have the exact same browser type! And even I know they're not all the same person

Their computers must have all fallen off the back of the same lorry as mine!

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Date: Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 01:52:48 (EDT)
From: Raoul
Email: None
To: Blackdog
Subject: Re: I wish everyone wold use their real names
Message:
Seus computadores devem toda ter caído a parte traseira do mesmo caminhão que meus!
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Date: Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 02:00:11 (EDT)
From: Raoul
Email: None
To: Raoul
Subject: Re: I wish everyone wold use their real names
Message:
Hey Dave que deve ser rob que finge ser eu
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Date: Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 01:53:39 (EDT)
From: Miguel
Email: None
To: Raoul
Subject: Re: I wish everyone wold use their real names
Message:
Sus ordenadores deben haber caído todo de la parte posteriora del mismo camión que el míos!
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Date: Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 02:03:31 (EDT)
From: Miguel
Email: None
To: Miguel
Subject: Re: I wish everyone wold use their real names
Message:
Hey Dave que debe ser robo que finge ser
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Date: Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 01:54:58 (EDT)
From: Kermit
Email: None
To: Miguel
Subject: Re: I wish everyone wold use their real names
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 00:11:51 (EDT)
From: Ex Poet
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: No need to be confused.
Message:
Girlzone is Mary
No way the contrary
All that rises falsely
Will surely fall
And I tell you Grace is Denise
Without the 'y'alls'
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Date: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 23:58:27 (EDT)
From: Ex Poet
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: PS: To gerryzone
Message:
And really I do,
thank you for heartmath
But right now I'd rather
Soak in my hot bath.

And sing

'I can see clearly now...'

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Date: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 23:57:51 (EDT)
From: Ex Poet
Email: None
To: Ex Poet
Subject: PS: To gerryzone
Message:
And really I do,
thank you for heartmath
But right now I'd rather
Soak in my hot bath.

And sing

'I can see clearly now...'

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Date: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 15:14:20 (EDT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Visions Big Blowout Inventory Sale!
Message:
Holy Cow! Such a deal! Get it while it's hot. Get it before they go out of business. Perhaps they know more about Y2K than anyone else. Or they are having money problems?

Gotta love those shisters (sp?)

Visions Big Blowout Inventory Clearance SALE!!

Coming Soon!
Big Blowout Inventory Clearance SALE!!
100s of sale videos in PAL & NTSC. 100s of audios for sale!
Music, books, gift boutique items, too! Extremely low prices!

Look for the Special Sale Section with hundreds of sale items. Coming to this site within the next few days!

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Date: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 19:07:32 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: I like this bit
Message:
INTRODUCTORY CATALOG SPECIAL!
Order 3 INTRO Videos
Pay for only 2!

Order any three introductory videos from the catalog. On receipt of your order, you will be charged for two only!

Man, it's so cheap and tacky. You'd think they were selling porn videos and not videos introducing you to the supreme divine knowledge of God.

Actually I've seen porn videos marketed much better.

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Date: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 15:42:29 (EDT)
From: Clarence Darrow
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Re: Visions Big Blowout Inventory Sale!
Message:
Or maybe they're just trying to get rid of the evidence.
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Date: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 15:34:24 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: They Can't Even Give That Crap Away
Message:
This is too funny.

What does is say about the Perfect Master and what he has to say that he has to have a huge 'inventory clearance sale' to get rid of his videos -- not to mention that crappy elevator music he peddles! He must be in desperate need of money for that new Rolex to add to his collection, or maybe that vintage Roadster he wants for his other collection. Of course, one has to wait and see how Maharaji defines 'extremely low prices.'

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Date: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 21:18:48 (EDT)
From: Grace
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Re: They Can't Even Give That Crap Away
Message:
I got this month's brochure announcing the Big Clearance Sale and it is soooo tacky I can't believe it! It would be hard for even a die-hard premie to be insulted at the way it cheapens the precious trip. Actually, the prices are low, videos are $5-7, usually $20-25.

JW, you're right, most of the music sucks! It's the most mushy sappy elevator-type music you can imagine. (But I do like the instrumentals of Arti & the other old songs, must be brainwashing still in effect)

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Date: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 22:25:15 (EDT)
From: girlzone
Email: None
To: Grace
Subject: left-over brainwashing
Message:
Sometimes an old DLM or EV song will pop into my head and it will take me right back to that old space of being a premie. It really freaks me out. It evokes a thousand smiling happy faces, a space of mindless bliss and truth. The good old days when I was brainwashed and never had to think for myself. It's very seductive. Then I think about the lyrics, about the context and the associated crap and I feel angry that all of that still lurks within me in some form. But songs do that. They capture moments, distill the past, work on the unconscious. I think one of the hard things is realising that the cult appeared to meet certain needs but just didn't. That it was an illusion. But that there are still needs which it called forth which have to be worked through now in a much healthier way. Make sense?
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Date: Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 05:16:30 (EDT)
From: Charlie (CdM)
Email: None
To: girlzone
Subject: Re: SingalongaDLM
Message:
Hi Girlzone,

I've taken to lurking these days as time seems to be a rare commodity but I thought I'd quickly respond to you here even just to say hello. Don't worry too much about rabid outbursts from other exes. It's easy to say that I know, but really, you don't deserve that kind of attack. Yes you're right about previous personal disfunction which in some way made the cult attractive to us. My disfunction was being a Roman Catholic.

But anyway, you mention old DLM songs. I once was working as a carpenter/joiner for a company in Southeast London run by a fella called John Pring. I discovered that he had been in 'Blue Aquarius', Bhola ji's old band, and was the author of a few of the old devotional favourites like 'Satguru has come, freedom, freedom!' and 'Satguru, you're face is like the Sun'. You can hear these numbers if you get hold of some of the old movies. I was having my premie heyday at that time and was thrilled to meet a premie so graced as to write such wonderful verse to our lord.

I aproached him and said 'hey John, I hear it was you who wrote that song 'satguru, you're face is like the sun', wow that's beautiful'. He straightened himself up from where he was cuttting some wood, looked me in the eye and said 'satguru you're face is like my fucking arse!!'

I was too shocked to say anything. A huge smile came across John's face and he burst into fits of laughter. As he regained his composure he returned to his wood cutting and sang softly to himself '... like my fucking arse!'

I slinked away and quickly did some calculations to explain what had happened to the poor guy. You know, the way URL and Shp do it. I came to the profound conclusion that he was 'in his head' to use the technical term.

Some days later after work I met John in the pub. He told me how he personally taught M to play arti on the guitar. He said there was no difference between M and anyone else. No magical aura, just a dumb kid. When you meet him and work with him you realize this quickly. He told me that I had to get out as soon as I could and that I was lucky to have somebody such as him (John) to tell me the truth about the sham of DLM. He went on about brainwashing and how most premies simply don't have a clue what was going on and how they reinforce each others belief. M just has to turn up from time to time to collect the money.

He told me about the rooms set to the side of the darshan tunnel which were like bank clearance rooms. As premies handed over their donation envelopes they were passed back through the curtain where they were opened and money immediatly stacked and counted. He was appauled at the industrial way it was done.

I was speechless. I ran to the nearest satsang venue as fast as my little legs could carry me.

It was years before I accepted that it WAS brainwashing. I remember Padarthanand at a festival in Malaga, Spain once saying in reply to the accusation that nollidge was brainwashing... 'yes, nollidge washes mind very clean sir' (Indian accent). All the premies laughed at his rye response.

I am happy to say Ex-Premie.org is a sort of Norton Utilities that helps to un-erase all that data that you thought had been washed clean away, though I wish I'd listed to John more carefully all those years ago.

Good luck... Charlie

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Date: Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 21:53:45 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Charlie (CdM)
Subject: Hey, Charlie, can we find this guy?
Message:
Any chance you can track John down again? You noticed the question that's arisen about Bob's Journey and the whole 'Band on the Run' story? It'd be really good to actually hear from a former Blue Aquarius member what really happened, how the band really dispersed. And what happened to those swank baby-blue dental assistant uniforms?
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Date: Fri, Oct 15, 1999 at 05:28:12 (EDT)
From: Charlie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Hey, Charlie, can we find this guy?
Message:
Jim

it would take a few telephone calls but I'm not sure whether he'd be interested in taking part in online
discussions. He really doesn't give a shit these days. I would have to track him down in a South London pub
somewhere to get to chat with him.

It would also be easy to get in touch with Barry Evans to get a bit of background. He played bass in various
bands down through the years. He quit M&K about six or seven years ago. I think Tim Hain is the only fervent
devotee that I know still hanging on these days. He bought a house in Reigate Surrey very close to M's. They're
actually living in the same Parish so to speak. Premlata and others are known to nip over to Tim's studio to make
a din from time to time. Some of the old band members still meet up to play around the London Pub circuit.

Do you recall any of these names as musicians from the old days. Danny Ellis was another one. He had a great
voice and was a terrific writer but was hellishly intense about M&K. Once while travelling to Malaga in Spain on
a bus he wouldn't let me look out the window at the orange groves of Seville. He kept saying 'it's not out there,
it's in here' pointing to his chest. I was only a youngster so did what I was told.

Charlie

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Date: Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 11:48:19 (EDT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Charlie (CdM)
Subject: Best of forum! ? (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 14:02:30 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: ROGER-BEST OF?????
Message:
Hey Roger: Shouldn't Charlie's post about the Satguru and the arse be on Best Of the Forum?

Marianne

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Date: Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 05:26:24 (EDT)
From: grrlzone
Email: None
To: Charlie (CdM)
Subject: Re: left-over brainwashing
Message:
Thanks for telling me that story. I laughed my head off! 'like my fucking arse..' Wonderful stuff. When I was little and would sing that song all the time I thought that maybe his face sometimes detached itself from his body and floated about the universe 'spreading light to everyone' or however it goes. Do you remember the story about Krishna and how someone looked into his mouth when he was a child and saw the universe. Well I thought that the Hamsters head contained a thousand suns. I thought this was why he sweated all the time. I have an old Blue Aquarius song book which I sometimes pull out when I have a party and we all roll around the floor in hysterics. It's so important to laugh about it, because it was all so very, very mad!
And thanks for being decent. I've been pretty shocked by this forum. Good to know that there are some balanced Xs out there.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 02:05:43 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: girlzone
Subject: Makes Sense
Message:
I know what you mean about the memories and what the music can do. I really think the cult met a 'need' for me for a short time. One was to have a simple answer to all of life's complicated questions and to have an excuse not to think about any of that. I think many of us also wanted to be controlled in a certain way. I think for many people there is a certain desire for that. It's really a desire to be a child again, and to be taken care of. We were deluded into thinking that was happening, when it wasn't.

So, in the cult, we thought we had a simple answer when we didn't and that caused us to waste our lives essentially doing nothing -- not seeking or growing. And also, we weren't really being taken care of at all. And since we were essentially living as children, we also didn't develop and grow because of that reason as well.

It was really damaging to live like that. Once you get out of it and realize what you lost, you are very justified in feeling angry.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 05:16:39 (EDT)
From: grrlzone
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Re: Makes Sense
Message:
I agree. The big thing for me was the demonization of Mr Mind aka ones critical abilities. I guess that is an essential step in the brainwashing process. I remember so many premies saying things like 'oh, X is so in their mind'. Usually that person was having doubts or just struggling in some way with emotional or economic problems. But despite all of that our spirit came through, our need to grow and have our real needs met overcame all of that brainwashing. And the strength of 'mind', the courage that all took, should be respected. Some part of us didn't give up, some part of us kept on growing.
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Date: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 23:37:36 (EDT)
From: nimzone
Email: None
To: girlzone
Subject: left over dementia as well
Message:
Ok...now this what you really want to sell us.

I think one of the hard things is realising that the cult appeared to meet certain needs but just didn't. That it was an illusion.

Sorry sweetie, the cult was real and still is. You're just denying it.

But that there are still needs which it called forth which have to be worked through now in a much healthier way

Like what? A healthier cult?

Make sense?

Maybe.
But I'd stay away from Maharaji...I really don't think he's too healthy for you.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 00:35:42 (EDT)
From: grrlzone
Email: None
To: nimzone
Subject: Re: left over dementia as well
Message:
Let's just get one thing straight you big baby boy. I think the cult is demented. OK? I think it has damaged peoples lives. I think Rawat is a creep. I KNOW Jagdeo is.
Cut your crap and think before you dive into your paranoid confusion.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 02:09:31 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: grrlzone
Subject: Re: left over dementia as well
Message:
Sorry, didn't catch this one.

But tell us, now that you've let us in on who you dislike,

What does the name do for you?

Ad before I leave you...gotta tell you this was cute:::))

Cut your crap and think before you dive into your paranoid confusion.

Love to you too,

Joey

And I'm outta here...you do your thing.
and remember,

'There's no business like ex business
there's no business I know...'..well except for that book thing, but we won't be talking about it, because, well ..I wont be here;)

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Date: Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 13:40:27 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Re: left over dementia as well
Message:
Joey: Come on. grrlzone's points are valid and true. So is your experience with Amtext. They are not mutually exclusive. People got fucked over in different ways by the cult, as you have acknowledged before. Please treat grrlzone's experiences with the respect they deserve, especially where Jagdeo is concerned.

Thanks, Marianne

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Date: Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 03:49:56 (EDT)
From: grrlzone
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Re: left over dementia as well
Message:
I guess you need some support. I suggest you see a therapist. Gestalt is good. And maybe help along the cognitive repair with some medication.
I hope that the damage you experienced in the cult is eventually undone and that you are able to let go have a happy and full life.

I respect the human being inside you who got hurt and I hope you heal.

Goodluck

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Date: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 14:52:32 (EDT)
From: Enough
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Visions Clearance Sale
Message:
Just came in my mail--End of the Millennium, BIG BLOWOUT Inventory Clearance Sale--Act Now

Those interested may get fantastic savings on videos and audios. $5 or $7 to see Golden Face--only $3 if the Golden Voice only is good enough.

Those interested may fax 805-495-3165 and I'm sure they will fax you back this order list and I'm sure additional comments on your fax would be welcome.

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Date: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 15:17:14 (EDT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Enough
Subject: Synchronicity Deluxe!
Message:
If this is not a sign from God! Obviously we all should empty our wallets and help Maharaji with his excess inventory problem.
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Date: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 15:25:12 (EDT)
From: Enough
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Re: Synchronicity Deluxe!
Message:
and I forgot to meditate this morning....That Grace!
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Date: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 13:04:32 (EDT)
From: Grace
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Drugs & Premies
Message:
I know some long time premies who still smoke pot and who knows what else they use. This always upset me, as Knowledge was supposed to lead to the consciousness we were looking for and I thought M was against them. A premie once told me that in the early days M said that acid was okay but that it was 'cheating' as a way to get to higher consciousness (but that it worked). Anyone recall M saying anything about this? And how many were doing drugs in the premie community?
I only knew a couple out of the maybe 50 premies I've known.
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Date: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 20:20:37 (EDT)
From: girlzone
Email: None
To: Grace
Subject: Re: Drugs & Premies
Message:
Most of the premies I knew were really into drugs or had been. There were quite a few dealers in the community too. One bloke would smuggle dope from India. He ended up in prison for a while and everyone thought it was really beautiful that he was meditating so much inside and sharing satsang, spreading the Word. When he came out he was seen as a hero. This same man tried to sell drugs to the kids in the community. Some of them are now junkies. One has OD. Quite a few premies offered me acid and hash when I was 14. I think they wanted to fuck me.
One premie was especially fucked up and gave his son some acid when the boy was only six. He thought this was really funny. Some sort of experiment like blowing pot at a cat and watching it's coordination fall apart. Sick. This same man got his five year old daughter drunk. He'd also beat them. It amazes me that they're still alive. All power to their spirits!
So yeah, a lot of drugs. And the drugs are still there. As though it was ever a clean community! What a myth. It provided people with a space in which to act out their perversions, to run with their own sickness. And it still does.
That children got caught up in all of that is just unforgivable.
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Date: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 16:45:08 (EDT)
From: toby4u
Email: None
To: Grace
Subject: Re: Drugs & Premies
Message:
I know aabout a lot of people who were taking drugs in the
community.
For example two of our musicians Ernst Brinkmann and 'Gipsy' from Munich Germany bought cocaine from members
of the holi band during the hans jayanty 1978 in Miami
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Date: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 16:32:25 (EDT)
From: Hope
Email: None
To: Grace
Subject: Re: Drugs & Premies
Message:
Borage - nothing wrong with a little herb now and again;-)
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Date: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 15:41:26 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Grace
Subject: Re: Drugs & Premies
Message:
I never heard Maharaji say that acid, or any drug, was okay. He said the premies shouldn't use drugs, but that didn't include alcohol. I always thought it was because alcohol was legal and the other drugs weren't.

One time one of the initiators, Ann Johnston, said that Maharaji told her and some others that the premies should not use drugs, but didn't forbid alcohol. Ann said she asked Maharaji why, when she had seen so much damage done to people from alcoholism. She said M didn't say why.

Of course, the asrham premies were forbidden from taking any drugs or alcohol. And now it appears that M's hypocrisy extended to more than sex. We are told he was abusing both alcohol and drugs throughout that period. I don't know WHEN he took up cigarettes. But I've heard that he had cigarettes and alcohol behind stage at programs. Maybe that was to 'calm his nerves' but maybe that's what made him so incoherent.

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Date: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 15:36:19 (EDT)
From: LdM
Email: None
To: Grace
Subject: Re: Drugs & Premies
Message:
The community I was a part of in Putney, London during the 80s was full of premies who were doing all kinds of drugs. I don't think that anyone thought there was anything wrong with that - we were also trying to practice knowledge at the same time and there were a lot of good vibes going around. I always thought when I was a premie, that as long as I remembered Holy Name - when I was drunk, stoned, or straight - that was all that really mattered. Maharaji's love was not meant to be conditional, it was meant to be perfect - no rules.

It is something I have never really understood - the knowledge of all knowledges was just not what it was cracked up to be. It did not have the power to raise my consciousness and take me out of the 'Maya'. And I tried for such a long time...

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Date: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 16:55:49 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: LdM
Subject: Re: Drugs & Premies
Message:
I always thought when I was a premie, that as long as I remembered Holy Name - when I was drunk, stoned, or straight - that was all that really mattered. Maharaji's love was not meant to be conditional, it was meant to be perfect - no rules. It is something I have never really understood - the knowledge of all knowledges was just not what it was cracked up to be. It did not have the power to raise my consciousness and take me out of the 'Maya'. And I tried for such a long time...

Contrary to your original premise, perhaps there are a few rules after all LdM. Like: your concentration is not as good when you are stoned as when you are not. Like: Knowledge is just a tool and, like any other tool, only as useful as the skill and concentration of the one who's hand within which it resides. Like: the delicacy of the operation to raise [your] consciousness and take [you] out of the 'Maya' is such that a high degree of skill in using the tool is essential. Or like: to hone and develop such a skill takes extraordinary committment. Or even: if one truly want to develop this skill, a Master who can keep you focused, encouraged, and inspired is without equal.

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Date: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 22:12:34 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: Then why would Maharaji smoke pot?
Message:
Url,

Mike Donner told me, my girlfriend and Gary Ockendon, another former bigshot, about smokeing dope with Maharaji who, much to my surprise, always hogged the joint. What, pray tell, do you make of this? I'm a liar? Donner's a liar? What?

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Date: Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 02:55:17 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I think it was Mike Donner who told me that....
Message:
m gave whisky to Premplata when she was just a few years old.
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Date: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 19:10:29 (EDT)
From: Blissful ex-premie
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: Cut the Crap URL
Message:
Since when did old fat boy ever talk about developing a 'skill.' He said you only had the experience, which is all it was, not some form of 'operation,' because of his grace and if you made any effort to practice and have the experience whatsoever, well that was only by his grace, too. So he was entirely responsible for the experience you had. If LdM didn't have an experience in practicing knowledge, it is the fault of Mr. 'all-powerful' you ninny.

I remember being super-miserable as a premie, despite never drinking or taking drugs, and practicing diligently, and finally I went to a counselor and he said, when I explained how I was feeling, 'it sounds like that practice isn't working for you.' DUH, talk about stating the obvious. It never HAD worked for me. I just bought Maharaji's crap, that he said over and over, that if it didn't 'work' it was just my own damn fault. That it was my own mind that made me unhappy, and certainly unhappiness had NOTHING to do with him or his cult. This was the first step out of the cult for me, and things improved immensely after I got the monkey of Maharaji's programming off my back.

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Date: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 20:12:11 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: Blissful ex-premie
Subject: Re: Cut the Crap URL
Message:
If LdM didn't have an experience in practicing knowledge, it is the fault of Mr. 'all-powerful' you ninny.

Explains why you were so miserable. You were standing at the platform, the train pulled up, but you didn't realise you had to get on board if you wanted to go anywhere. Here's the secret: It's not in your actions -- it's in your will.

You have taken his words and distilled them into your own brew. He has always said he can't make you have an experience.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 04:04:53 (EDT)
From: LdM
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: Re:You've got it wrong URL
Message:
URL

You have taken his words and distilled them into your own brew. He has always said he can't make you have an experience.

You're guilty of the same thing - taking his words and twisting them to your own way of thinking. He DID NOT always say he can't make you have an experience. He said that if you put yourself in the right place to receive his grace, you would receive it. Have an open heart etc.,. Therefore if you are ready, he CAN make you have that experience.

If I use your train analogy - waiting for the train, standing on the platform, the train pulls up - all of this was a part of a premie practicing knowledge, 'developing the skills' by putting time into satsang, service and meditation. The opening of the train doors and being helped onto the train - this would be maharaji and his grace taking over. Well, he didn't keep his end of the bargain up. How do I know? Because he wasn't there on the train to open the doors - time after time.

Here's the secret. It's not in your actions - it's in your will.

OK, so it's not my actions, it's my will. Would that be my desire? Yes, I had oodles of that. Wanted to be close to maharaji, to experience THAT love, my breath etc.,...But when it didn't happen, was it MY fault? That's what you're saying really isn't it? How much of myself did I have to give to become humble enough? How much time did I have to spend to do this?

I'm glad that you at least are experiencing something from knowledge. But could you experience it without maharaji? Could you tell me what you experience, how you feel about your life?

You said in your reply to me that I am left to work out why it works for some people and not for others. No, I am not interested in working that conundrum out. I am more interested in dealing with the many things that have been displaced and that I have avoided in my life during the time that I was a premie. I am more interested in taking back the reins of my life and taking control.

All the best

Lee

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Date: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 18:22:45 (EDT)
From: LdM
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: Re: To URL re drugs & premies
Message:
your concentration is not as good when you are stoned as when you are not

Yes, actually I know that. Maybe my post gave the impression that I was always out of it. I wasn't. I was merely trying to say in response to Grace's post, that I personally did not feel that there was anything wrong with drugs/alcohol and I don't remember hearing maharaji say anything about it one way or another - maybe that was selective hearing on my part.

Knowledge is just a tool and, like any other tool, only as useful as the skill and concentration of the one who's hand within which it resides

Really? That's putting the onus on the user. The knowledge was meant to be perfect, given by the master. It was not presented as "just a tool" to me and many others who received knowledge in the early eighties - guru maharaji said that it was the most precious thing. If you want to use that analogy, then knowledge was supposed to be a PERFECT tool, one that could not fail you if you used it properly. Are you saying that I did not use it properly? How would you know?

the delicacy of the operation to raise [your] consciousness and take [you] out of the 'Maya' is such that a high degree of skill in using the tool is essential and to hone and develop such a skill takes extraordinary committment

Yes, a high degree of skill - which I tried to develop by my practice of knowledge and my devotion to maharaji - is how I saw it. I agree with you. And I gave it my commitment - for 18 years, I was a premie. Do you believe that you have attained a higher degree of skill than all the premies/ex-premies here?

if one truly want to develop this skill, a Master who can keep you focused, encouraged, and inspired is without equal

I once believed in maharaji and I loved him. I wanted to become enlightened and thought I was on the true path. He did used to inspire me. Mostly at programmes - I would soak up the excitement that was in the air waiting for maharaji to come on stage, I used to enjoy listening to him. But when alone at home, meditating, his words did not help to centre me. Did you ever hear him saying that it was only by His Grace (the Perfect Master's) that you ever experienced meditation or knowledge? That you had to ask for it, pray for it? But with no expectations? OK, so I would try and at the same time, not try to do this zen thing - ask for his grace but without any expectations! Yeah, you probably have lost my drift by now 'cos it's so confusing!

Believe me, URL, I have tried to practice knowledge by the rules and not by the rules as well - just to see if it made any difference. It didn't. I came to the conclusion, in a very upsetting way, that maharaji is not my master and never has been, he doesn't know me and doesn't give a damn about my spiritual peace whatsoever.

Didn't you say to Grace be careful not to judge? But you take the position to judge me? I have taken a lot of time writing this post, giving it great consideration - I think it is coherent. I don't feel the same about maharaji anymore, I don't have praise for him, I like talking to ex-premies and sometimes when I'm feeling bad, I need to talk to ex-premies. Premies on the other hand, are OK - but they are totally stuck in their view of things. I really don't need any more of that. I can't go back.

Lee

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Date: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 19:56:10 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: LdM
Subject: Re: To URL re drugs & premies
Message:
Hi Lee -- interesting response.

Really? That's putting the onus on the user. The knowledge was meant to be perfect, given by the master. It was not presented as 'just a tool' to me and many others who received knowledge in the early eighties - guru maharaji said that it was the most precious thing.

I don't know how to say this delicately so I'll just say it. Yes, the onus is totally on the user. Yes it's precious; yes it's perfect. But it is nothing at all without the correct understanding of the user, and certain qualities. Then the fruit of Knowledge is... well, I could come up with all the usual descriptors which you would tire of, but suffice it to say that from my experience there is nothing more beautiful.

Are you saying that I did not use it properly? How would you know?

Lee I don't know you from Adam. All I can say is I practise the same Knowledge that you say was not what it was cracked up to be. So why the difference? Now you could revert to the standard ex-premie excuse of, 'I'm not being honest with myself' or some other such rationality. But I don't think there are grounds to say that. Of course if you adhere to the premise that anyone who still practises Knowledge must be dishonest, then that's another story. So if you take me at my word and accept that it does bear beautiful fruit for some -- then why not for others?

Do you believe that you have attained a higher degree of skill than all the premies/ex-premies here?

Yes to the exes by virtue of the fact that it works for me and doesn't for them. And really it's not a comparison of skill level, it's just a recognition that it works for me.

I came to the conclusion, in a very upsetting way, that maharaji is not my master and never has been, he doesn't know me and doesn't give a damn about my spiritual peace whatsoever.

If all the times he went to England was not to talk to you then why? If you adopt a jaded rationale for his motivation for doing so, such as for profit, fun, whatever, then yes, your perspective is understandable. But one's perspective of him hinges on one's faith in him, which you have clearly lost. He still comes just to talk to me, and still cares about my spiritual peace. And I do have peace.

Didn't you say to Grace be careful not to judge? But you take the position to judge me?

Why do you say that? Does me having a beautiful experience of Knowledge and you not mean that I judge you? Believe me I don't. Knowledge does bear wonderful fruit for me, and I am being as true to myself as I can when I say this. If it doesn't for you, the only explanation I can come up with is maybe you missed something. Or maybe it's just not for you. No judgement.

You are still left having to come up with an explanation for why it works for me and not for you. I wouldn't be so hasty as the many are who love to denigrate the integrity of practising premies. That would be reverse chauvinism, which is dishonest.

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Date: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 22:23:49 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: The answer's simple, Url
Message:
You are still left having to come up with an explanation for why it works for me and not for you.

It all depends on what 'works' means. Does k placate you, make you feel like you're communing with Maharaji or God or whatever? Sure, maybe it does. Does that mean that you're actually in the state you think you are? No, of course not.

Url, when I got k the offer was very, very well-defined. K was the ticket to liberation. God-realization. A state we were told Maharaji, his family and all the mahatmas had already attained. And much as Maharaji's tried to move the goal posts over the years I remember all that bullshit as if it were yesterday.

So now, defining 'works' for me is really simple. 'Works' means doing what it was promised to do, liberate people from the 'cycle of birth and death' (more hindu foolishness, of course.) So if you want to tell me that k works the first thing I want to know is are you God-realized? Are you free of the cycle of birth and death? Yes or no?

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Date: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 22:41:16 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: The answer's simple, Url
Message:
You are still left having to come up with an explanation for why it works for me and not for you.

It didn't work for my earth bound, low vibe, underdeveloped spiritual self either, URL.

Really it's just brain chemistry. Some people have those tendencies and others do not.

Explain this URL: Patty (my wife) and I tried these brain wave hemi-synch tapes which entrain your brain to various states: alpha, delta, theta. We both had identical tapes and playback equipment. She went to the moon and was 'blissed' all day the first time we tried them and I was, well, it kinda reminded me of my attempts at M's meditation.

Was she experiencing Guru Maharaji's grace or was it a function of her brain???

She never saw M or heard a word of satsang. And she can't stand to be in the room if I play the one M video I own.

You say you have a deep and beautiful experience practising Knowledge. I don't doubt that. I would like to hear a more succinct explanation of what that means if it's not too personal and I don;t see why it would be.

Lots of people get off on meditation without belonging to a cult of personality whereby they must constantly be 'reminded' of the beauty of life etc, etc. I just don't see where the guru fits in. Enlighten me, please URL.

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Date: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 21:26:21 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: It works?
Message:
You are still left having to come up with an explanation for why it works for me and not for you.

For me, it certainly wasn't from a lack of trying. I meditated until it bored me to tears. And yes, I 'kept in touch'. But the thing you're missing URL, is that this Knowledge is supposed to work for anybody who gives it a fair chance. I gave it more than that. It never worked, URL. How do you explain that?

Maybe you need to believe that I just never cultivated the necessary skills because that's the only way it computes for you if somebody is disgruntled with Knowledge. But, I assure you. I gave it more than a fair chance.

How do I explain why it works for you? I don't. I only know that if Knowledge is what M says it is, then it should have worked for me too. I gave it that fair chance, and...

FUCK YOU FOR THINKING THAT YOU GAVE IT MORE THAN I DID. I gave it as much as I could. If that wasn't enough, than I guess I just wasn't good enough for the Knowledge of God. Odd how God would create me in a manner that would prevent me from having an experience of him because I couldn't develop the necessary 'skills'.

URL, you're such a vapid, bleating, offensive chunk of bullshit. Do you know that?

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Date: Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 13:35:53 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Yeah, it works
Message:
FUCK YOU FOR THINKING THAT YOU GAVE IT MORE THAN I DID. I gave it as much as I0 could. If that wasn't enough, than I guess I just wasn't good enough for the Knowledge of God. Odd how God would create me in a manner that would prevent me from having an experience of him because I couldn't develop the necessary 'skills'. URL, you're such a vapid, bleating, offensive chunk of bullshit. Do you know that?

Ooohh such disdain -- must have hit a nerve. Look Jer, I don't say I've put put more time in than you, but clearly there's more to it than just time and effort. As I said above, it also has something to do with will. But I guess if after having put in all your effort you truly believed you were on the right road, you would have humbly asked the question, 'What am I missing', and I bet you would have found your answer. The force of that question is created by an intense will to find your answer.

It's like this: what happens for the thirsty when they start to get close to water? They start to smell it; feel it; almost taste it. But it can also be confusing. You can start questioning if you are going the right way after all, especially when every direction you head seems to have the same smell of water. And you start to wonder if it's really water you smell after all. And you end up going round in circles. And it challenges the strength of the will you have to quench your thirst -- and if it's not strong enough, you could give up.

Bottom line is, you, Jim, LdM, JW, JM, et al cannot explain away as merely a creation of my own wants and desires the consistent beauty I experience from Knowledge. SORRY, IT'S JUST NOT! So then what?

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Date: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 14:06:17 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: Grace
Subject: Re: Drugs & Premies
Message:
Grace, you gotta be careful not to judge others by your own standards when they may not apply.

Also take into account the fact that Maharaji spoke to three different groups of premies: 1) premies who looked to him for guidance and were able to take his words to heart, 2) premies who sought his guidance but were not prepared to make changes in their lives, and 3) premies who were not very open to his advice at all. Even so, he accepted as students all three groups; all were encouraged to practise the techniques and reap the inherent benefits of Knowledge.

The specific guidance however for different groups was different. Yes, the basics were the same but can you imagine if in the early '70s he had said that if you do acid or smoke dope you can't have Knowledge or reap its benefits? He would have slammed a door on so many premies. Many of these same people have outgrown drugs today but still enjoy Knowledge. On the other hand, he advised ashram premies and instructors not to do drugs. His expectation I assume that, being where they were, they looked to him for advice on such matters, and they were prepared to implement it in their lives.

For me this discrepancy was not an issue -- because the thing that united us was not drugs, sex, rock n'roll, or any of these things, but a unique love. When people lost sight of this source of unity, reconciling the other things caused a great measure of confusion and personal strife. Such was the condition of so many of today's exes.

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Date: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 14:22:20 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: Re: Drugs & Premies
Message:
That's bullshit. I've just had a great parent/teacher's meeting with my children's teachers and not a single premie was in sight. Do you really think that people need Maharaji, knowledge and premies to feel unity with people???

Do you really believe that ex-premies are living in strife and confusion because they have left Maharaji???

Oh dear oh dear. Even when I was a premie I never thought that. It is a very narrow minded view of things. And premies, by the way, were and probably still are the least unified group of people I've ever met. Unity and love in Maharaji's world??? Man, that's a joke!

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Date: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 14:49:59 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Re: Drugs & Premies
Message:
That's bullshit. I've just had a great parent/teacher's meeting with my children's teachers and not a single premie was in sight. Do you really think that people need Maharaji, knowledge and premies to feel unity with people???

Dave, give yourself a shake. I didn't say unity couldn't be felt any where else! What I DID say was that the ONLY thing that united premies was love -- brought on by Maharaji and the practise of Knowledge. That was one of the most amazing things for me when I first got involved -- how different we all were and yet how much unity I felt with other premies. When one lost sight of the love, everyone else looks like they are of another species.

Do you really believe that ex-premies are living in strife and confusion because they have left Maharaji???

No, not at all -- because you have removed the dissonance from your life. When you couldn't shit, you got off the pot (no pun intended).

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Date: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 14:03:51 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Grace
Subject: Re: Drugs & Premies
Message:
In Britain, premies and dope (hashish) go hand in hand. In fact, they would consider you a bit strange if you didn't smoke it.
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Date: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 13:33:04 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Grace
Subject: Drugs & Premies, and more
Message:
I also know that a high percentage of 'long time premies' (including VIP - I won't give names) have serious mental and social problems. Like in any social group.

An average of about 20% of the French population is on tranquilizers, alcohol, and various drugs.

My idea is that the premie population is nothing different here. I guess this is the same in every place.

What's been shocking for me to see, like for you, is that Rawat's knowledge doesn't improve anything in this field.

I was definitely expecting something else .... but like Rawat said, you should come without expectations...and you can stay stalemate with this for a very long time....until you recover some of your senses !

This is definitely a cult, and you can't expect anything good for individuals, beside THAT EXPERIENCE, of course!

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Date: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 20:43:47 (EDT)
From: girlzone
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: Drugs & Premies, and more
Message:
I don't agree that the percentage of premies who are or were into drugs reflects a broader demographic. People who join cults are on the whole a little more disturbed or messed-up than the average. So there is going to be more substance abuse, more self-abuse in cults. And given that DLM began in a social period in which taking drugs was equated with sticking your (adolescent) tongue out at the straight world and that DLM mobilized so many of the 60s/70s discourses about dropping out then OF COURSE we're dealing with a special section of the community. Many were drugged-fucked before they became involved. Which is why they got involved. They were on a path of self-destruction, were into numbing their heads and their bodies. Brainwashing and drugs. A Perfect Way of avoiding pain.
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Date: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 21:02:54 (EDT)
From: Grace
Email: None
To: girlzone
Subject: Re: Drugs & Premies, and more
Message:
Many of you have talked about how serious you were as premies and how hard you tried to do what you were supposed to, follow M's agya, but (maybe I'm being too judgemental in saying this) how could you consider yourselves seriously seeking peace and higher consciousness and take drugs, too? (I'm not saying I never did, just not during the more serious times in my life that I pursued higher consciousness and tried to be a true 'seeker' of Truth)
Of course, maybe that was more unrealistic during the drug heyday of the 60s and early 70s.
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Date: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 22:46:40 (EDT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Grace
Subject: Re: Drugs & Premies, and more
Message:
When I was a premie it was very much forbidden to take drugs. I saw no evidence of drug use at all. There were lots of former drug users though.

I tended to hang around people who took the whole thing very seriously.

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Date: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 12:14:23 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: None
To: All
Subject: I'm coming, and yes it FEELS GOOD!!
Message:
MMM, I love travelling. Nothing like personal interaction!!! Hi James?
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Date: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 22:02:49 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Forum administrator ???
Message:
I'm asking via this post that you block this asshole once a nd for all. His post is either a threat or a feigned threat (kind of like someone pretending to punch you but just 'missing'. You know, like little kids do.). In either case, it's completely contrary to the few simple, simple rules here. Catweasel knows it. He just can't help himself.

But, more generally, I think this guy should be kicked off the forum anyway. Who is he? And I don't necessarily mean 'what's his name?' I mean who is he as a person? Of all the participants here over time I'd say he's the most vapid, disgusting and worthless. Why, tell me why, do we have to endure this garbage? I say we don't and to tolerate it indefinitely is simply stupid. (Brian once freaked when I said that but that's what I think so shoot me -- no, not you, Cat. You can just fuck off.)

But, like I said, Cat has intentionally posted this message for the very purpose of testing the 'no threats' policy. Fine, kick him off. No one will miss him.

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Date: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 23:21:30 (EDT)
From: Catweasel the Gentle
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Forum administrator ???
Message:
Your paranoid James . I said in an earlier post that you arranged to be deleted we might share a beer.what are you worried about,do you think you may have offended me? Or some-one else? Or nearly every-one you don't know who has tried to communicate with you! Come down of your pedestal Jamie,you've been offending and threatening people here for years now . Are you sacrosanst? Are you licensed here to do and say whatever you please? Are you 'permitted ' to abuse , be-little and threaten? HYPOCRITE!!!!
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Date: Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 00:03:02 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Catweasel the Gentle
Subject: This is exactly what I mean
Message:
Cat,

It's hilarious hearing you complain about people not communicating well. Absolutely hilarious. No, I stand by my request. You wrote the post above for one reason only -- to threaten me. To make me think that possibly, just possibly, you might mean it, you might actually seek me out to harm me somehow. To say now 'only kidding' is completely beside the point. In fact, you're now only saying that because you're afraid that there might actually be some consequences for your childish, ugly bullshit here.

Enough is enough, Cat. You really have no reason for being here. You've never had a single honest discussion that I can recall. All you do is abuse the space and your post starting this thread is a perfect example. What was the point of that post? Just to show us how ugly an anonymous cult member can be? I say you don't belong and hope, really hope, that FA agrees.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 09:24:37 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Jim/Gerry/Cat
Subject: Jim, Cat, Gerry
Message:
Jim,

You messed with me in a recent post out of the blue. No, you did not threaten to come here and mess with me personally. You messed with my name in such a way as to create doubt in the minds of anyone reading these posts as to my trustworthiness. That's dangerous too if unchecked. As a lawyer, you are acutely aware of how words can influence people, and you really know better. Or maybe not.
Yeah, I used to post under different names to parody what you did. and eventually outted myself, but if you recall, you used to post under fake names too. When was the last time you played that? Just a rhetorical question, no need to reply, just making a point.

It has been my experience that there are both premies and ex-premies who are good and decent folks who are sincerely following their innermost beliefs, and then there are premies and ex-premies who are bonafide assholes going along for their chosen ride and manifesting their assholeness in their chosen venue. The dividing line is not whether someone is an ex or not. The divinding line is where are YOU at, and where are YOU coming from, not your affiliations or ex-affiliations. I believe that the Lord, whoever he is, looks on the heart and the motive, not the membership cards stuffed in your wallet behind the credit cards, or if you have a swan on your mug or not.

Note to Gerry: Sorry, man. This riff was begging for a reply. I don't agree with or condone any sort of threats or charactrer assasination on any level. Still being magnannymus.

Note to Cat: I'm not into 'shoulds' and 'shouldn'ts' much, but to even imply that you are coming to visit someone with whom you've had a volatile discourse here such as Jim is unwise in this present climate. Duh. If you are trying to out-heavy and out-gross Jim, then perhaps you are both wasting your energy and compromising your own effectiveness. But then again, I am 'out of your league' as you told me once before, and you may see yourself on another level that allows you to do this sort of thing. If that is so, then I don't wish to be in your league, you can have it.

Shp

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Date: Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 09:38:38 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: Are we there yet?
To: Shp
Subject: Re: Jim, Cat, Gerry
Message:
Thanks Shp . Out here on the planet Voltron things are much easier.What with seven eyes and multi grab extenion arms typing is a snap!Personal objectivity is natural. We higher beings are hear to teach all lower primates how to master this art.Gotta dash now Shp......Its time for Jesse 'the body' Ventura's encounter of the third kind.He keeps thinking he's for real!!!
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Date: Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 00:33:28 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: This is exactly what I mean
Message:
And I say your really uptight and fucked up. You see yourself as the flag bearer here Jim but realistically as a human
being, you don't come across as a very nice person. I don'tcare what you think or say about me Jim ....What I'd say to you Jim would be to have a good hard look at yourself and just what YOU Represent to any-one browsing. In business, if you were my competitor I would be very, very happy........You'd drive them to my door!
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Date: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 15:51:59 (EDT)
From: Sharon Stone
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: That's What All The Guys Say (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 16:23:55 (EDT)
From: Sister Helen Wheels
Email: None
To: Sharon Stone
Subject: You Are A Hussy and A Slut
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 17:20:14 (EDT)
From: Sharon Stone
Email: None
To: Sister Helen Wheels
Subject: You Wish You Were, Sister Perpetual Agony (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 19:00:11 (EDT)
From: Nicole Kidman
Email: None
To: Sharon Stone
Subject: Bitch!
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 20:32:28 (EDT)
From: Sharon 'Bust Your': Stone
Email: None
To: Nicole Kidman
Subject: Tom's Not So Hot, And I Should Know
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 15:49:22 (EDT)
From: Sister Mary Mae Hem
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Don't Forget To Wash Your Hands Afterwards
Message:
And you will clean up the mess after you do! Honestly, I don't understand why you have to advertise to the world your own disgusting practices. Heathen!
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Date: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 12:41:04 (EDT)
From: Onyx the Cat
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Where are you coming?
Message:
Grrrr Catweasel. My mistress told me you were coming! Will you be visiting my neighborhood? You had better watch out, because my co-pet Halloween and I regularly catch rats as big as weasels!

Onyx the Cat

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Date: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 19:02:19 (EDT)
From: Tami Sunshine Rainbow
Email: None
To: Onyx the Cat
Subject: In Hiz pantz (gigle)
Message:
cat, due yu get it? hahahaha
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Date: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 19:15:45 (EDT)
From: Onyx the Cat
Email: None
To: Tami Sunshine Rainbow
Subject: Re: In Hiz pantz (gigle)
Message:
Oh yes, I get it. Purrrrrr......
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Date: Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 03:03:09 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: None
To: Onyx the Cat
Subject: Re: In Hiz pantz (gigle)
Message:
I have it on good authority that if you are kind, considerate and gentle with a girls Pussy, she'll respect you and you'll win her heart! What do you think Onyx?
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Date: Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 10:57:47 (EDT)
From: Onyx the Cat
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Re: In Hiz pantz (gigle)
Message:
That's a question you ought to pose to Mistress Grammar.
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