Forum IV: The Ex-Premie Forum
Archive: 10
From: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 To: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 Page: 5 Of: 5


Roger eDrek -:- What is Hate? -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 13:54:07 (EST)
__ Nigel -:- Just a theory... -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 21:43:29 (EST)
__ __ Nige -:- Re: Just a theory... -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 08:53:17 (EST)
__ __ __ nigel -:- Who am I talking to, here? -:- Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 08:18:00 (EST)
__ __ dv -:- Re: Just a theory... -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 22:35:36 (EST)
__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Good theory and suggestion -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 01:46:36 (EST)
__ emile -:- Re: boring vs. fun!! -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 15:42:53 (EST)
__ __ Roger eDrek -:- What I like on the Forum -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 15:54:25 (EST)
__ __ __ Katie -:- Roger - that thread ****BEST OF****? -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 23:55:22 (EST)
__ __ __ URL -:- Re: What Roger likes on the Forum -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 17:18:27 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Like I said, asshole -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 01:29:43 (EST)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- Things change, People grow. -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 20:16:55 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ A Premie -:- Re: Things change, People grow. -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 20:53:22 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pauline Premie -:- Re: Things change, People grow. -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 00:55:02 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ The Forum Raiders -:- Gerry, you're pulling our legs... right? (nt) -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 20:20:09 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Gerry -:- Accepting Change -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 20:42:47 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ url -:- Good luck Gerry... -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 21:17:26 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Gerry -:- Re: Gerry, you're pulling our legs... right? (nt) -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 20:40:21 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Gerry, you're lying! Cannot be done without staying in touch (videos) -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 01:35:35 (EST)
__ __ __ emile -:- Re: What I like on the Forum -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 16:12:42 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Carl -:- Re: What I like on the Forum -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 00:59:01 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ emile -:- Re: numbers don't lie!! -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 23:54:43 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Re: numbers don't lie!! -:- Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 00:25:05 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Better than illogical lying apologists -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 16:21:37 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ URL -:- Re: What about illogical lying ex-premies -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 17:25:57 (EST)
__ URL -:- Re: What is Hate? -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 14:47:28 (EST)
__ Shp -:- Reply to Roger and all -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 14:16:13 (EST)
__ __ URL -:- Re: Reply to Roger and all -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 14:56:41 (EST)
__ __ Dr. Roger eDrek -:- Oh, Boy! -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 14:43:10 (EST)
__ __ __ Shp -:- Let's do this again and don't cop out., Roger -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 15:18:49 (EST)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- Re: Let's do this again and don't cop out., Roger -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 09:45:39 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Re: Reply to JHB -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 10:03:07 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Re: Reply to JHB -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 12:19:33 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Re: Reply to JHB -:- Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 09:29:30 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Re: Reply to JHB -:- Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 20:10:55 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- SHP, take your cultlike phobias and shove it!! -:- Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 11:48:52 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- No phobias, no shoving, -:- Wed, Nov 10, 1999 at 21:54:33 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- EXACTLY! -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 15:08:49 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Ooooooo, he said recalcitrant! -:- Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 09:34:26 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Dr. Roger eDrek -:- I'll sell you the rope... -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 15:40:25 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Re: I'll sell you the rope... -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 15:56:45 (EST)
__ __ __ URL -:- Uncanny isn't it.... -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 15:01:19 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- It's canny alright -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 15:29:31 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ dV -:- I agree with you totally -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 22:06:32 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ URL -:- A hate site... I rest my case (nt) -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 15:56:40 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- And proven beyond dispute. So you can f**k off now. (nt) -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 22:03:09 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Shp -:- Re: Uncanny isn't it.... -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 15:27:38 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ URL -:- Re: Uncanny isn't it.... -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 17:41:16 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ dv -:- Not all all Not at all...nt -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 22:09:43 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Mili -:- Bizzare is more like it -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 16:38:02 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ URL -:- Re: Bizzare is more like it -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 17:34:34 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ dv -:- Here we go again! -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 22:13:48 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- FUCK THESE ASSHOLE PREMIES! (nt) -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 01:39:42 (EST)

Jim -:- Why Url can't be trusted -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 11:40:41 (EST)
__ Katie -:- One reason -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 11:52:54 (EST)
__ __ Katie -:- P.S. to Nil -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 13:09:06 (EST)
__ who knows -:- yes, you ARE missing something -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 11:43:04 (EST)
__ __ Jim -:- Re: yes, you ARE missing something -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 11:47:03 (EST)
__ __ __ JW -:- URL=Nil, But So What? -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 12:49:33 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- JW's aliases -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 13:03:36 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Re: JW's aliases -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 13:11:19 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- A Premie is an imposter... -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 22:18:00 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Sir Boring Bastard -:- Re: JW's aliases -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 16:46:47 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Very Funny -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 19:23:41 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- I did not post this (nt) -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 16:51:12 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ The REAL Sir Dave -:- I didn't post any of the above posts with my name on -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 20:57:06 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ THE real, Debrett's-listed Sir Dave -:- This is an outrage! -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 21:11:10 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- 'A Premie' -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 13:12:47 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Re: 'A Premie' -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 13:14:44 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Re: 'A Premie' -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 18:48:03 (EST)

Jim -:- Why are you still here, Shp? -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 11:34:40 (EST)
__ Shp -:- We are all One even though we disagree, cool eh? -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 11:50:45 (EST)
__ Gerry -:- Time to move on, Shp. -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 11:45:40 (EST)
__ __ Roger eDrek -:- Second the motion (nt) -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 13:40:32 (EST)
__ who knows -:- for SHP: not true -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 11:45:04 (EST)
__ __ A true ex -:- Hello???!!! This is the EX premie forum-your opinion doesn't count. -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 19:26:45 (EST)

Jean-Michel -:- Shri Hans' letter to JFK -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 10:42:40 (EST)
__ Happy -:- ... and his letter to Bertrand Russell -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 11:23:57 (EST)

chr(Chris) -:- Abi's post and other matters -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 07:54:54 (EST)
__ JW -:- Thanks Chris -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 13:01:49 (EST)
__ bb -:- Thanksgiving story! -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 12:12:18 (EST)

Jim -:- Brain damage? -:- Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 21:46:08 (EST)
__ JW -:- Post hoc, ergo propter hoc -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 00:45:21 (EST)
__ Nigel -:- The illusion of surrendered control (nt) -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 05:38:58 (EST)

Katie -:- To Larry from DC: e-mail -:- Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 21:06:58 (EST)
__ Katie -:- Correction -:- Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 22:03:45 (EST)

Jerry -:- Quitting the forum -:- Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 19:31:25 (EST)
__ Roger eDrek -:- You'll be BACK! (nt) -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 13:27:18 (EST)
__ Invite to -:- Sir Davids Pub and forum -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 11:46:08 (EST)
__ Nigel -:- So long and thanks... -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 05:55:46 (EST)
__ bb -:- Re: Quitting the forum -:- Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 21:30:30 (EST)

JHB -:- We've definitely been hacked -:- Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 06:00:23 (EST)

Mel Bourne -:- Jim's evasion.... -:- Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 02:43:46 (EST)
__ Jerry -:- Mel's absurdity -:- Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 06:01:09 (EST)
__ JHB -:- Jim did respond -:- Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 05:40:30 (EST)
__ Enough -:- My solution.... -:- Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 05:27:00 (EST)
__ Jethro -:- Re: Jim's evasion.... -:- Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 05:04:15 (EST)
__ Roger eDrek -:- Mel, refresh my memory -:- Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 03:01:18 (EST)

youngold -:- 'Fare Thee Well' (nt) -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 22:22:04 (EST)
__ Nice try SHP!:::)) -:- Re: youngblum....you're beautiful pal!(NT) -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 22:33:52 (EST)

Abi -:- Farewell and thanks -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 19:38:56 (EST)
__ Roger eDrek -:- Re: Farewell and thanks -:- Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 00:09:21 (EST)
__ Sir Dave -:- Re: Farewell and thanks -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 21:03:32 (EST)
__ URL -:- Bye Abi & thanks for the post -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 20:45:40 (EST)
__ __ Jim -:- ARE YOU 'NIL' OR NOT? -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 21:58:18 (EST)
__ __ __ URL -:- Re: ARE YOU 'NIL' OR NOT? -:- Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 02:35:11 (EST)
__ __ Hey, where's Nil?:::)) -:- Nil, I swear...you must be the hampsters eternal asshole!(nt) -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 21:32:42 (EST)
__ __ Buddhawicz -:- Please be careful, URL. -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 21:20:06 (EST)
__ URL -:- Bye Abi & thanks for the post -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 20:41:56 (EST)
__ Runamok -:- Farewell and thank you -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 20:41:09 (EST)

URL -:- To Abi from below -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 18:20:33 (EST)
__ Jerry -:- Be yourself, URL -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 19:14:08 (EST)
__ __ URL -:- Re: Be yourself, URL -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 20:16:31 (EST)
__ Abi -:- Re: To Abi from below -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 18:56:21 (EST)


Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 13:54:07 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: All
Subject: What is Hate?
Message:
Hate is all these premies posting at the Forum.

If Maharaji's Knowledge is so pure and satisfying then why do these people come here to quench their thirst. Surely, there are more pleasant things to do than argue endlessly with us.

These are angry people who have hate in THEIR hearts because they very much dislike what we have to say amongst ourselves. Their arguments are weak, illogical, evasive, and incomplete. Yet, they continue to hound and pound us even when it is made clear that we are really tired of their presence. For sadistic reasons they remain.

I now see the need for the invitation-only forum run by Katie for recent ex-premies. There needs to be a refuge from these upset and confused premies that continue to inflict their rage upon on us.

Premies, the door is always open. You may leave at any time. Likewise, you may return, but please do so with an open mind.

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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 21:43:29 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Just a theory...
Message:
Premie visitors are wrestling with their own demons. We give those demons physical shape in the form of words and freely-formed ideas and challenges to cult-think. If they can wrestle with the demons and win, they might yet crawl back to Maharaji with victory secure beneath their belts. If they stay too long, it probably means they have already joined us - though it will take a while before they admit it.
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Date: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 08:53:17 (EST)
From: Nige
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Just a theory...
Message:
I agree, Nige. BUT, that will never work out
if they are treated like shit for hanging around.
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Date: Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 08:18:00 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Nige
Subject: Who am I talking to, here?
Message:
Something seems to be keeping them here, though, doesn't it? As for 'treating like shit', it is my impression they dish out far more of the stuff than they ever receive.
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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 22:35:36 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Just a theory...
Message:
Yes, why are they so fascinated with this forum? Are they trying to 'save' potential exes? Wouldn't they be more effective spreading k to new people, rather than trying to save the ones who 'obviously didn't deserve or understand it'? Yet I do understand how hard it is for them, even m sarcastically asks them why they don't admit that they follow googoo moogi to their fellow workers. Much easier to preen divinely righteous feathers amongst themselves on this site, which, again, is the reason my motion is that they be 'expunged'.
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Date: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 01:46:36 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: Good theory and suggestion
Message:
Thanks Nigel. I was beginning to lose as all three of them started in on me. It was almost like be satsanged with a love bomb. Interesting how it got Gerry and was almost getting to me.

Yes, dv, interesting idea that it might be more lucrative for these heroes of Knowledge to spend their energy going after new virgin recruits. Except as you and I both know that such is impossible and bringing a friend or a co-worker to a video is the kiss of death to that relationship.

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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 15:42:53 (EST)
From: emile
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Re: boring vs. fun!!
Message:
My how things change. I haven't posted here for awhile. It seemed to me that you-all really needed premies to get involved here. You seem to entice people with knowledge to respond to your ignorance. Otherwise this site is so boring.
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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 15:54:25 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: emile
Subject: What I like on the Forum
Message:
I'm really in a foul mood today having responded too many times to Shp and/or URL and now you!

Anyway, while it seems that I might enjoy this endless arguing with Premies, it becomes pointless.

What I do really like about the Forum are the good people and the stories they post. Reading about the experiences of other ex-premies is what I find most valuable in helping me understand what I went through because at the time we were not allowed to question anything.

For example CHR's (Chris) post below with JW's follow up and bb's follow up has provided me with an understanding of something that I went through at that time that today I still suffer immensely from and that is the way I treated my family. I'll quote bb's Thanksgiving story here:

I know one girl who left her two little ones in Atlanta
because of the heavy approach. And numerous others.

Your right, the wrecked families were...

I just remembered a satsang where a girl told us about
'thanksgiving' when one of the relatives at the dinner table asked her 'I hear you are doing meditation dear,'
and the Premies response was (perfect), 'Guru MaHARAJ JI's knowledge is so powerful that if you cut off my mothers head and put it on the plate in front of me It wouldnt affect me'

Yeah, I did something like that but worse. Fuck me for thinking like that and fuck Maharaji for helping to make me think and feel like that. It's something that I have always regretted and will never get the chance to right.

Sorry, ma, I forgot to take out the garbage.

Right! There's a problem with us because we don't want to find a middle ground in terms of Maharaji and give him the respect that you feel he is due?

The countless examples of suffering that premies went through because of their own misunderstanding or misunderstanding facilitated by Maharaji and his representatives is the best thing that can ever be said on these Forums. And I would imagine that the number of injured premies far exceeds the many, many people that you claim have been helped by Maharaji for the simple fact that there are really very few Western premies left.

You are deluded when you speak of Maharaji's success. His failure is far more apparent than you will ever admit.

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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 23:55:22 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Roger - that thread ****BEST OF****?
Message:
Hi Roger -
I think that that chr/JW/bb thread which includes bb's Thanksgiving story should be ***BEST OF****.

Thanks,
Katie

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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 17:18:27 (EST)
From: URL
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Re: What Roger likes on the Forum
Message:
What I do really like about the Forum are the good people and the stories they post. Reading about the experiences of other ex-premies is what I find most valuable in helping me understand what I went through because at the time we were not allowed to question anything.

Read: What I like reading about is other people who hate Maharaji too. I really don't want to hear from people who have anything positive to say about him, whether it be from premies, ex-premies or otherwise, because it just confuses me.

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Date: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 01:29:43 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: Like I said, asshole
Message:
Hitler did a great job building the autobahn, but other than that he was a real asshole.

Same for Maharaji, but he didn't build nothing.

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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 20:16:55 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: Things change, People grow.
Message:
OK, Url. I'll admit it. Lately there's been that small still voice in my heart telling me. 'Come home, Come home to your true self...'

I admit for years, I never thought about Maharaji. I know, I know, you're thinking I didn't really deserve Knowledge when I got it. I wasn't ready for it. And you are probably right.

The years went by and yet, an emptiness nagged at me like a wound that would not heal. Something was missing. Or maybe just lost.

Then I stumbled in here. Yeah, stoned sometimes and sometimes a little drunk and sometimes both, but still searching, still seeking, and I found this place. I guess I was still belaboring under false notions of what Knowledge is really about, and I gladly jumped into the fray.

But, lately, reading URL and SHP and MILI, I've experienced somewhat of a change of heart. I've decided to give Knowledge AND Maharaji a try again. I personally like the idea of Knowledge Lite (as much as it is maligned) and Maharaji HAS changed. I don't see too many other people out there doing what he's doing.

So now, I'll just sit here and wait for the names and violence to begin. I don't feel like responding in kind, though, I've had the most delightful meditation. I feel as though this is a new beginning for me!

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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 20:53:22 (EST)
From: A Premie
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: Things change, People grow.
Message:
Nice to see you back in the fold, Gerry. What really inspired me recently here, was the compassionate post by that wonderfully devoted brother, Mili, when he posted us that Hunger Site.

I could feel Maharaji's compassion coming through Mili and reaching out to us. I just had to click on that site and I did it for Maharaji, you know, because it's his love, his grace and his compassion that allows us to have starving people in the world so that we can forget about them by going to that place where there are no starving people.

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Date: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 00:55:02 (EST)
From: Pauline Premie
Email: None
To: A Premie
Subject: Re: Things change, People grow.
Message:
Yes, it is just so beautiful. Everyone is returning to the lotus feet of the lord, because of that love, that truth, that peace and that experience, which is all due to that grace, which is that gift of this life. Maharaji will always take you back with open arms and he even accepts Visa and American Express (no personal checks, please), just completely out of his selfless and perfect love.
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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 20:20:09 (EST)
From: The Forum Raiders
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Gerry, you're pulling our legs... right? (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 20:42:47 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: The Forum Raiders
Subject: Accepting Change
Message:
I don't expect people to *trust me* and I'd like a little space to work this out for myself.
I need to get a little 'experience' under my belt before I can talk about other things.

This means lots of meditation and simply listening for inspiration.

What 's different is this time, it's working!

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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 21:17:26 (EST)
From: url
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Good luck Gerry...
Message:
Hope you find the clarity you are looking for.
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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 20:40:21 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: The Forum Raiders
Subject: Re: Gerry, you're pulling our legs... right? (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 01:35:35 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Gerry, you're lying! Cannot be done without staying in touch (videos)
Message:
So, Gerry-Ji, how many videos ya got there? Have you even made it through one of them yet?

I know this as a recent ex-premie that you can't get nowhere without the Master and the Master says to 'stay in touch' and that means watching videos.

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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 16:12:42 (EST)
From: emile
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Re: What I like on the Forum
Message:
but really, you would find this place pretty dull if all you could do is rant with like-minded lawyer-types.
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Date: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 00:59:01 (EST)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: emile
Subject: Re: What I like on the Forum
Message:
Not dull at all, Emile. New ex-premies are being created by this site everyday. There are always new ex-premies to talk with. Keeps it interesting.
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Date: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 23:54:43 (EST)
From: emile
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: Re: numbers don't lie!!
Message:
let's see, Maharaji has hundreds of thousands of students who are completely satisfied with Him as a teacher and of course with what He teaches and you have what, a half-dozen disgruntled ex-premies stroking each other's egos.
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Date: Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 00:25:05 (EST)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: emile
Subject: Re: numbers don't lie!!
Message:
Emile,

For every 100 people m has given k to in the west, 98 have left and 2 have remained on as premies. Thats not a very good success ratio and his numbers are getting worse all the time.
And you're right...the numbers don't lie.

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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 16:21:37 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: emile
Subject: Better than illogical lying apologists
Message:
You premies (not all premies) are like the criminals that lawyers defend - never know what to expect. I'd rather have a convsersation with a lawyer, all lawyer jokes aside.
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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 17:25:57 (EST)
From: URL
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Re: What about illogical lying ex-premies
Message:
Hey Roger, I'll guarantee that I've NEVER lied on this forum. What I have said is as true as I understand it at that given time. If my understanding is faulty, I'll be the first to want to change it. The fact that you find that so bothersome says something about where you're coming from.

Ok seeings you like lawyers I'll restate that:

I do solomnly swear that what I have said is the truth and nothing but the truth so help me...

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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 14:47:28 (EST)
From: URL
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Re: What is Hate?
Message:
Roger, hate definitely is not what draws me here. And please don't be such a fool to mistake anger with hatred... they are two totaly different things.

I come to argue with you because your arguments against Maharaji are so lop-sided. You see nothing but negative in something that continues to be genuinely positive for so many people... people you seem to feel the need to disregard as having no worth. You have no answers for anyone short of grunting, 'Maharaji bad', and you will have no part in discussing in a respectful tone logical arguments presented by premies. The logic of ex-land is simplistically black and white and NOTHING in life is that simple except life itself.

So right or wrong I come here to try and present a perspective of Maharaji and Knowledge drawn from sweet and positive experiences I've had for over half my life. The degree those sincere experiences get stomped upon and abused just make me want to press harder to expose the gross injustice that is promulgated here.

So run off and hide in your ex-premie refuge. That's great actually... probably will be good for me... as I tire of wasting so much time is this intolerance soaked backwater.

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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 14:16:13 (EST)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Reply to Roger and all
Message:
I disagree with you Roger. I don't hate you or anyone here. I am not judging you as being 'good' or 'bad' for leaving Maharaji. Yet you judge me as bad for not doing what you are doing. I am just curious, and if that's a crime, sue me. I don't come here to quench my thirst, and I wonder whatever gave you that idea. Colorful language, but no substance to it.

The one issue of any substance that I ran across here - the Jagdeo matter - I became an advocate of and wrote to EV and Maharaji about it. Some EV muckity mucks might even have me on their shit list for that, who gives a fuck? I did what I thought was right. Premie or not, I am who I am. I do not buy into the weird concepts of what premies are as presented here or in the lives of some actual wacknuts who happen to have Knowledge.

The real issue as I see it is who are the people trying to be kind and who are the assholes?
Definition of kind: Doing good rather than harm.
Definition of asshole: Nothing but shit comes out of it.
That's the dividing line for me lately, not if somebody got K from M or PDQ or any other initials.

People coming to Knowledge may happen upon this website and change their minds. People leaving Knowledge may happen to read a premie post here and change their minds. I understand your desire to have a sheltered environment to do what you do with new arrivals, but sooner or later they will have to face the world and have the strength of their own convictions and not the vicarious power of an old timer who has been encouraging them and working with them.

Do you have licensed, bonded counselors over here who know what the hell they are doing? What happens if you are helping someone out of the 'cult' as you call it, and they flip out and hurt or kill themselves or someone else? Are you then responsible for their actions the same as you accuse Maharaji of being when premies have flipped out? I sincerely do not wish this scenario on you or anyone but hey, it could happen. Think about it. Gotta look at both sides of the coin.

Shp

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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 14:56:41 (EST)
From: URL
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Re: Reply to Roger and all
Message:
Well said SHP. I don't hate anyone here either. I've run out of patience with a couple of people who hurl nothing but shit and abuse at premies but would even welcome a respectful dialog with them. As a premie I have learned how good it feels when real communication happens between two people... and I don't mean an exercise in parrotting acceptable catch phrases. I mean when two people actually walk away having understood the other person on a deep level. The main exes here want no part of that, probably because they are so protective of their intolerance... which they view as the source of their 'clarity'.

So rock on SHP... for as long as the stomach holds up. ;-)

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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 14:43:10 (EST)
From: Dr. Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Oh, Boy!
Message:
I'm going to pass on responding to most of what you said here because we've done it so many times before.

Like we need to be licensed and bonded and responsible for the outcome of presenting information and communication about leaving a cult?

GET A REALITY CHECK!

I'd better caveat this now before you define me as an uncaring asshole: It would be most unfortunate for such a scenario that you paint to occur. (That's the kind of word games we need to play with Shp.)

I suspect that most of the good people around here who spend time and effort to help premies leave the cult are intelligent enough to recommend professional help to anyone exhibiting any serious problems. In fact, that suggestion should probably be a default to anyone ever involved with Maharaji, including Maharaji himself if he would even show up at his appointment.

It's not like we are telling people what to do with their lives as Maharaji did and does. Nor do we ask for money. Nor do we have so-called representatives travelling around the world telling people what to do with their lives and much worse.

Your argument, as usual, is ridiculous. I think I've spent enough time with you this month, Shp. Until December.

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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 15:18:49 (EST)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Dr. Roger eDrek
Subject: Let's do this again and don't cop out., Roger
Message:
Your reply is a cop out and you know it, Roger. The simple question is, if you are counseling someone who is leaving the 'cult' as you call it and they do something terrible to themselves or someone else, do you accept any of the legal or moral responsibility that perhaps you may have just said or suggested something not quite right in your attempt to to what you think is right and triggered a violent response unknowingly and unintentionally in the life of a fragile and injured soul, causing injury and possibly even death? It's a fair question and deserves more than your avoidance, if you have the integrity to face me on this and answer clearly.
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Date: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 09:45:39 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Re: Let's do this again and don't cop out., Roger
Message:
SHP said:-

The simple question is, if you are counseling someone who is leaving the 'cult' as you call it and they do something terrible to themselves or someone else, do you accept any of the legal or moral responsibility that perhaps you may have
just said or suggested something not quite right in your attempt to to what you think is right and triggered a violent response unknowingly and unintentionally in the life of a fragile and injured soul, causing injury and possibly even death? It's a fair question and deserves more than your avoidance, if you have the integrity to face me on this and answer clearly.

So SHP, are you suggesting we all keep quiet about what we know?

John.

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Date: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 10:03:07 (EST)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: Reply to JHB
Message:
No, that is not what I am suggesting. What I am saying is that the responsibility for someone doing something hamrful to themselves or others is not always in the hands of those who are trying to help bring some good (as they see it) into the lives of others. This goes for you as well as Maharaji and his organization. If you attribute blame to him for those who did something outrageous (not referring to Jagdeo here - he is still on the table) while in his influence, then you must assume the same responsibility for those who may do something outrageous while in your influence. Otherwise, it's individual karma, and Maharaji is not responsible for premies who went off any more than you'd be if a new ex went postal while posting here daily. Are you willing to accept that? If not, then play another game that doesn't have such high stakes as human life and welfare.
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Date: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 12:19:33 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Re: Reply to JHB
Message:
Sandy,

This is nonsense. On this forum I am just one small voice expressing my views as honestly as I can. I am not entering into any form of contract with anyone else who reads the posts here. There is no way my words can be held to blame if someone reading here has psychiatric difficulties.

Maharaji on the other hand did enter into a contract with premies. He invited us to apply for his knowledge, extracted a serious vow from us, made it very clear we should view him as God in human form, and asked us to surrender the reins of our lives to him. He also taught us a potentially powerful meditation that can specifically cause mental changes. What happened to premies who entered into that contract is largely his responsibility, and therefore it is reasonable to give him a large share of the blame for subsequent problems.

I also contribute to the Leeds United supporters mailing list. Should I be held responsible for any mental problems experienced by other subscribers there?

John.

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Date: Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 09:29:30 (EST)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: Reply to JHB
Message:
JHB,
Your calm and well worded reply is appreciated, yet you miss my point. Even if you do not have the same level of agreement with new ex-premies as Maharaji had, you are still giving advice, counseling, suggestions, and expressing your own experiences to someone who you know could be in a very fragile state. Are you or anyone here prepared to take on the responsibility for dropping or injuring that frgile being or triggering them to do something hurtful to themselves or someone else by your own ineptitude and/or personal transferred anger towards Maharaji? Messing with someone who is going through something like this can cause damage too, even if your intentions are good in your eyes.
Dante said the road to hell is paved with good intentions. And if you can accept this, I beleive that my post here is objective and not supportive or non-supportive of either side. Just look at this one issue and call the dogs off ofr me personally, or don't. The truth is not determined by popular vote on this site. It is independent of you, me and everybody and stands on its own virtue.

Why do you think society has developed trained, licensed counselors to deal with people who have deep problems? Are you taking the law into your own hands and laboring under the illusion that you can do no harm? Think again. you think you can counsel other folks just because you are having the same experience they are having. Not enough data, John, and I think you are smart enough to know it.

I am not here trying to hamper your activities or even slow you down. I am just saying objectively that the members of your site could unintentionally push someone over the edge who is coming away from Maharaji as easily as a demented instructor used to scar premies, and without even knowing it or understanding how it happened.

So what I hear you saying is that if a new ex is around here and posting regularly and getting all the news from the usual suspects, then out of grief or depression or some referred emotion that was magnified by someone here, feeds himself a bullet right after one particularly heavy night of reading, let's say Jim's vitriolic bombast, that no one here is in any way responsible. I disagree. When you try to help someone in any situation, you assume some of the moral responsibility for their welfare, period.
Shp

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Date: Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 20:10:55 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Re: Reply to JHB
Message:
SHP,

I think Joey has given you a very complete response. I would just like to add that I'm glad you didn't pursuade all the exes here a year ago to stop posting because it might harm some potential ex. I was that potential ex, and imagine this, Sandy, one year ago I believed in M as something divine. I gave money regularly to support his work which I believed in. I am just so pleased the ex-premie.org site is there, and that this forum is here.

Thank you again everyone for having the patience to continue posting here, and destroying the stupid arguments that premies like Sandy for whatever reason keep throwing in here.

John.

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Date: Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 11:48:52 (EST)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: SHP, take your cultlike phobias and shove it!!
Message:
Why do you think society has developed trained, licensed counselors to deal with people who have deep problems? Are you taking the law into your own hands and laboring under the illusion that you can do no harm? Think again. you think you can counsel other folks just because you are having the same experience they are having. Not enough data, John, and I think you are smart enough to know it.

SHP, I think you should get it straight. Participation in the forum does not equal therapy or counselling nor is it a substitute for such. You're right in claiming that we aren't expert 'exit counsellors' or anything like that, nor are we trying to be. But the forum can be a valuable support group for exes, especially recent ones , and here's what the experts have to say about that.

'...Some former members of specific cults have their own support group or newsletter, such as TM-EX for former devotees of Transcendental Meditation.
Through contact with others who have been through similar experiences you will begin to better understand yourself and what you are going through. As you hear others' stories and share their pain, you will identify with them and feel compassion. In this way you will start to have compassion for and forgive yourself. You may also benefit from hearing, how others have dealt with postcult problems....You will also gain insight on dealing with and eliminating side effects as well as facing general life issues. You will be able to measure your own growth and healing as new people come into the group and you find that you are offering them help and support.'(Tobias and Lalich, Captive Hearts, Captive Minds 1994)

The fact of the matter is, that its professionals in the field who are encouraging exes to participate in support groups with fellow former members. The benefits in their opinion far outweighs your very cultlike and phobia inducing scenario of a participating ex committing suicide as a result of their involvement here.

Thus far SHP, the only suicides we can talk about here are PREMIE SUICIDES...those whose involvement in the cult paved the way for their own demise. There have been NO exes who have committed suicide as a result of their participation on this forum, and there really isn't any sane reason to believe that there will ever be one, unless we allow the recent exes who post here to be glommed by premies such as yourself without coming to their aid and defence.

Shp, you say we aren't experts, but your phobia inducing scenario(again, so very cult like of you) flies totally in the face of what the experts are saying.
If exes are vulnreable in this forum, its really because of the mindfucking and deception we have to endure from premies, since we are committed to having an open forum and freedom of speech.
But this ISN'T the cult...and no ex has to face this alone. As premies we may have been isolated in the cult but as exes we are not alone here.
Like the rest of the premie headfucking we bear witness to on the forum, your latest attempt at inducing this 'suicide phobia' just won't work.
Although its quite appropriate from a cult that has a very profound legacy of suicides of its own, which it is attempting to hide from. You guys will have to do alot more than merely point the finger the other way.

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Date: Wed, Nov 10, 1999 at 21:54:33 (EST)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: No phobias, no shoving,
Message:
I am not trying to induce phobias or any of the other accusations you mentioned. I am merely saying that Maharaji has repeatedly said that he is not a therapist and some folks need therapy before receiving Knowledge. If that is so, why do you hold him responsible for what people did who came to him? He has said many times that he does one thing and that is it. He reveals Knowledge. You want him to be a doctor, a nursemaid, a therapist, and so many other things you have heaped on him.
How convenient for you. His trip changed. What doesn't change in this world? The one thing he came to do, he has not waivered in accomplishing...he has been spreading Knowledge to people who want to have inner peace. Outer lives are messed up everywhere. Healing the inner is the first step.
Humanity got messed up over a period of thousands of years? You want fast-food microwave world peace. Not gonna happen.

I too have questions about things that have changed over the years, but nothing that would make me deny the fact that Knowledge is a tangible experience that helps me experience life on a more beautiful level whenever I practice. The questions I have do not shake my faith in Knowledge or the person who helped me experience it.

Shp

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Date: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 15:08:49 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: EXACTLY!
Message:
Exactly! We really do not enter into any contract with anyone as opposed to Maharaji. Basically, we are only saying or suggesting to people that they should stop banging their head against the wall. We do not offer much of anything at all that could be remotely considered as a prescription to anything.

Shp, your argument is as defective as you are. I am sick of wasting time communicating with you. It's like talking to a recalcitrant child.

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Date: Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 09:34:26 (EST)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Ooooooo, he said recalcitrant!
Message:
You joke and parody until somebody comes along with a legitimate presentation of facts that don't agree with you, and all of a sudden you are not 'cyber graffiti boy' anymore. You are serious, mad and even using big words. Your peer pressure shithouse won't work on me.
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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 15:40:25 (EST)
From: Dr. Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: I'll sell you the rope...
Message:
Shp,

If the person is you then I will sell you the rope. You are completely pedantic and absurd.

First, this is the Internet and not some hospital or ashram where we have control over much of anything.

It's a fair question and deserves more than your avoidance, if you have the integrity to face me on this and answer clearly.

Ah, such rhetoric!

do you accept any of the legal or moral responsibility

Again, this is the Internet and we have no real control over the outcome of anything. Ever hear of Good Samaritan laws?

Finally, and I don't wish to spend anymore time on this with you, if someone comes here and starts to deprogram and does something like kill themselves the issue of causality comes into play. Was it something that was entirely the fault of advice given here to be the cause? Was it maybe the fact that they were involved in Maharaji's cult have more to do with their demise? Or even other factors?

That's it, Shp. Your fifteen minutes is up. You can throw your pompous tantrum now, but I'm done with you until whenever.

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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 15:56:45 (EST)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Dr. Roger eDrek
Subject: Re: I'll sell you the rope...
Message:
I'm not pompous and I don't throw tantrums.
You still copped out.
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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 15:01:19 (EST)
From: URL
Email: None
To: Dr. Roger eDrek
Subject: Uncanny isn't it....
Message:
...how Roger, like so many exes, when presented with what is very respectful and rational positions counter to theirs, reverts almost automatically to their default tape of negative litanies against Maharaji. Is it my imagination SHP or does it sound like a hate propeganda machine to you?
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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 15:29:31 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: It's canny alright
Message:
Basically, you might be correct in that I really do not care to dialog or communicate with you as I see nothing positive nor redeemable in Maharaji - NOTHING. You expect and demand that there should be some middle ground where I/we should have some respect and some consideration for Maharaji and his teachings. No, that is not going to happen.

I'll take this to the extreme and compare Maharaji to Hitler where one can argue that Hitler did Germany some good by building the AutoBahn, yet the evil and repugnant essence of Hitler remains. Likewise your efforts here to pursuade us that Maharaji has redeeming qualities is a foolish waste of time. You'll get no respect from me just because you demand it and claim that your arguments are valid and mine are not or because I refuse to even consider your point of view. Simply stated, you continued presence here in such adversity makes one question your sanity and your motives.

You guys parade around here like you've got some divine right or divine agya to spout your revisionist and apologetic Maharaji crap and that we are wrongly ungrateful.

Not wanting to speak for everyone here, but...

I think that many people are simply sick of you guys and would wish that you would find another sandbox to play in.

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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 22:06:32 (EST)
From: dV
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: I agree with you totally
Message:
The 'pillars' of this forum, like Anth, Jim, Way, Jerry, Robin, Helen, Katie(s), JW, etc.etc.etc. have been extremely helpful in assisting me in what I have been going through while extricating myself from this cult. That to me is the purpose of this forum, not to listen to these same old cultists who are not REALLY practising knowledge(or they wouldn't be here!)spew their guilt ridden bullshit. Therefore, I agree, they should be booted outta here! If they have something to say, why don't they start their own forum? HeHeHe...
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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 15:56:40 (EST)
From: URL
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: A hate site... I rest my case (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 22:03:09 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: URL
Subject: And proven beyond dispute. So you can f**k off now. (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 15:27:38 (EST)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: Re: Uncanny isn't it....
Message:
Nothing so clandestine or evil, URL. These people are just like us, but for the fact that something happened in their lives that turned them against Maharaji. I respect their right to their feelings and have been curious as to why they left, and that is why I come here.

Anger and fear make people act negative. Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.

Shp

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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 17:41:16 (EST)
From: URL
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Re: Uncanny isn't it....
Message:
SHP I know you're trying to mediate a bit here and that's cool, but you have to admit that it gets tiring seeing the same old rhetoric that Roger and others default to. Yes, we both know that deep down inside we are all the same. My point is that their mindless rhetoric reminds one of similar propeganda used to fuel other more infamous hate 'machines'. I point this out so people will hopefully catch the default pattern and see it for what it is.
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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 22:09:43 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: The Forum Raiders
Subject: Not all all Not at all...nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 16:38:02 (EST)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Shp
Subject: Bizzare is more like it
Message:
It's like some of these guys just happened to pass through the Looking Glass, and everything is completely turned around.

I'm sorry for them, really. Especially for those 'old-timers' who somehow forgot or missed the joy, and now regard a better part of their lives as worthless. Must be a weird headspace they're at.

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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 17:34:34 (EST)
From: URL
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Bizzare is more like it
Message:
Not only did they forget the joy, they revised their own history as a premie and consciously expunged it from their memories. And this site is where they come to purge themselves of these troubling joyful experiences.

It was the joy that kept them involved for 10, 15, 25 years. If it wasn't, then they are indeed right... they really weren't being honest with themselves. If so, their short-sightedness is that they think we all must have experienced the same level of dishonesty. Sorry guys, that's just not so.

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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 22:13:48 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: Here we go again!
Message:
It's was THAT JOY! Oh yes! Oh yes! I can feel it! I need more! That joy! That joy! Seig Heil! Seig Heil!(sp!).
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Date: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 01:39:42 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: FUCK THESE ASSHOLE PREMIES! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 11:40:41 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Why Url can't be trusted
Message:
Url probably used to post as Nil. He won't say. So what's stopping Url from changing his name (again?) this afternoon and never admitting it? I ask you, is there any other situation one can think of where this kind of 'conversation' is acceptable? One day you're talking to 'x', the next, you're still talking to 'x' but he now calls himself 'y' and won't let on they're one and the same? I can't think of any. I say that completely NILifies (ha ha ha) his worth here. Am I missing something?
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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 11:52:54 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: One reason
Message:
Maybe someone figured out who 'Nil' was in the real world, and so he changed his name...
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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 13:09:06 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: P.S. to Nil
Message:
P.S. to Nil -
Although I think I did figure out who you were in 'TRW', it was because I had access to confidential information, and I want you to know that I DID NOT tell anyone else (and won't tell anyone else.)
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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 11:43:04 (EST)
From: who knows
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: yes, you ARE missing something
Message:
a lot of exes also have multiple handles. Double standards?
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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 11:47:03 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: who knows
Subject: Re: yes, you ARE missing something
Message:
Well they shouldn't. It's a stupid game to play all this identity jumble. It's bad enough relating to each other as real people here. No, I'm completely against it. All this anonymity is bullshit anyway. It breeds irresponsibility and confusion.
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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 12:49:33 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: URL=Nil, But So What?
Message:
URL and Nil are definately the same person. It's really obvious in the way he writes and 'thinks.' Several people have confronted him on this and he hasn't denied it, which is a tacit admission. If URL wasn't Nil he would say so as there would be no reason not to . Frankly, I think it's kind of nice, and shows some integrity, that at least he won't lie about it.

Why he changed from one to the other, I don't know. I guess he has his reasons, and I do think it's a problem, especially when he accuses others, like me, of dishonesty.

I know some exes have also changed their names here, but in some cases they announced the change, and in many other instances they do it from time to time as a joke. I, myself, have done that, but it's always been as a joke, and not intended to deceive people into thinking I'm not who I am.

By the way, can anyone guess which regular participants here are actually JW? Hmmmm? I will admit it to anyone who guesses and if people are uncomfortable with that, I will stop, although it is fun.

I agree it would be better if there wasn't anonymity, but I think there are legitimate reasons people want to be anonymous, especially at first.

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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 13:03:36 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: JW's aliases
Message:
Hi JW -
I know one of your aliases, which I won't reveal (but it is pretty funny), but are you also 'A Premie'?

Love,
Katie

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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 13:11:19 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Re: JW's aliases
Message:
No, I am not 'A Premie.' But I have been wondering who that is.
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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 22:18:00 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: JW
Subject: A Premie is an imposter...
Message:
The real A Premie was a homophobic asshole and lover of the guru who posted here circa January 1998.

Probably still there in the on-line archive. Surely you all remember... This latest claimant to that name is not the same person and ought to banned for their outrageous stealing of the monicker and general piss-taking.

(No, it ain't me, either)

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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 16:46:47 (EST)
From: Sir Boring Bastard
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Re: JW's aliases
Message:
I think you are Rob
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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 19:23:41 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Sir Boring Bastard
Subject: Very Funny
Message:
Very funny, but complete bullshit, and I think I might be a little insulted.
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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 16:51:12 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Sir Boring Bastard
Subject: I did not post this (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 20:57:06 (EST)
From: The REAL Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: I didn't post any of the above posts with my name on
Message:
The only post in this thread which I have written is this post you are reading now.

Now not only do I have someone impersonating me but I also have someone impersonating a real me!!!

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Date: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 21:11:10 (EST)
From: THE real, Debrett's-listed Sir Dave
Email: None
To: The REAL Sir Dave
Subject: This is an outrage!
Message:
This is the first genuine post from me in this thread.

I shall ask questions in the House, I shall write to the Times, I shall..I shall..I shall...aghhhh, Blenkinsop - my pills man, quick.

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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 13:12:47 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: 'A Premie'
Message:
I think it used to be Sir David - maybe still is?
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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 13:14:44 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Re: 'A Premie'
Message:
That would be my guess, too.
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Date: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 18:48:03 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Re: 'A Premie'
Message:
Sir Dave is A Premie. He said it himself. A Premie once posted that Rotwat should get the Nobel Peace Prize. I bit hook, line and sinker. Those Brits always pull the wool over our Yankee eyes (with apologies to any southerners).

Marianne

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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 11:34:40 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Why are you still here, Shp?
Message:
Shp,

Below, in your typical melodramatic, cheap style, you moaned about how you'd leave if you weren't wanted. I say no one wants you here. Do you think otherwise?

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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 11:50:45 (EST)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: We are all One even though we disagree, cool eh?
Message:
First, I don't think I am typically melodramatic or cheap.
Second, I was not moaning. Must be your audio pickup.
Third, I thnk you paraphrased me rather inaccurately.

As for the trinket and the trap analogy once and for all, the trinket is the material plane's goodies and the trap is all the devotion to the material plane you have to perform to get them. Knowledge, if anything, is the hammer that breaks the trap of illusion that makes us seek fulfillment from the outside in, and allows us to obtain the jewels of this world if we so desire without having to sell our soul for them.

I am just really tired of people misinterpreting all sorts of things like this parable, not just here but in many venues. Very shallow and self-serving thinking, not for the love of truth, but to be RIGHT!
Well, I don't happen to agree with you on alot of things, but I respect your right to exist anyway.

Shp

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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 11:45:40 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Time to move on, Shp.
Message:
I had some hopes that talking with you, providing some alternatives might wean you from the grifter guru. I can see this is just not going to happen. I can no longer stand to listen to your self-righteousness and pomposity.

We are at a stalemate here, Sandy. You are a true believer and nothing will shake that. OK, fine. But how 'bout skedaddling from here as we've all heard your arguments and some of us are getting extremely tired of them.

I don't even want you to reply to this. That's how sick I am of your posts.

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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 13:40:32 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Second the motion (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 11:45:04 (EST)
From: who knows
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: for SHP: not true
Message:
i for one am interested to read SHP's posts. why do you write 'noone wants you here'? how about taking a poll on this, in AG forum?
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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 19:26:45 (EST)
From: A true ex
Email: None
To: who knows
Subject: Hello???!!! This is the EX premie forum-your opinion doesn't count.
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 10:42:40 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Shri Hans' letter to JFK
Message:
For those who've missed it, here it is

Shri Hans' Letter to JFK

for ever .....

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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 11:23:57 (EST)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: ... and his letter to Bertrand Russell
Message:
Jean-Michel,

Shri Hans wrote a letter to Bertrand Russell, too! It reminds somewhat of the one to JFK. I have just sent a copy to you by reg. mail, for inclusion in the DLM/EV papers, if you wish. Take care,
Happy

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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 07:54:54 (EST)
From: chr(Chris)
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Abi's post and other matters
Message:
It's been a long time since I read or posted here. The post from Abi Ifound particularly disturbing. When I received K I had a young daughter. I was only 21 and not in relationship with the mother. However she lived with me half the time and we were very close. Within 6 months of receiving K (1973) I had moved into the ashram and deserted my daughter, convinced I was doing the right thing and backed up by a mahatma. Years later, after the ashrams were disbanded, she came to live with me and spent most of her teenage years with me. To cut a long story short, she was one of many children of premies who suffered because their misguided parents gave all their love and attention to M. I could go on and on....families split due to service and ashrams, especially during the deca period. Children carted to satsang every night or left to fend for themselves while parents sat under a blanket. We really became emotional cripples, giving ourselves and our natural feelings, emotions, thoughts away in exchange for this thing we called K and devotion, convinced we were actually finding our true selves. It took me years after leaving M to really be able to feel natural, heartfelt feelings and not believe that they were an illusion. ALSO, some premie down near the end of the messages was trying to claim that premies were never kicked out of the ashram etc . During 1981, there was a purge world wide. Premies who were not deemed suitable or were perceived to be struggling in the ashrams were asked to leave. I was in ashrams in three different countries during this time and I saw it happen in each of them. I was even asked to tell a premie to leave and another time told to lock somebody out who had been told to go . ALL the people I knew of suffered greatly, felt like failures and that they had somehow displeased M. I just figured that M knew what he was doing and these people just needed to surrender more...
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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 13:01:49 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: chr(Chris)
Subject: Thanks Chris
Message:
I really appreciated that thoughtful and very personal post. Posts like yours are extremely powerful and I think very helpful. I know they are to me. Your discussion of your daughter is so poigniant. It's great she got to spend her teenage years with you, and I know there were many others who have similar stories to tell.

As I have mentioned, the purge of 1981, and the uncarring brutality of it, was really the incident that began the 'snapping' process and got me out of the cult. I never had to ask anyone to leave the ashram, but I do recall how terrorized many of the ashram premies were. After having their self-esteem smashed down for years by Maharaji's rantings that human beings are NOTHING without his grace, and how we were to lose our egos in devotional surrender to him, and after years of giving up everything to devote to and serve him, some of his henchmen then go around and terrorize these premies and tell them they are failures at even being a devotee. It was really sick.

And Maharaji was completely behind it. David Smith told me directly that he was instructed by Maharaji to 'clean up the ashrams.' It was a witch hunt. There was no right way to be an ashram premie. Everyone was brutalized. Mind you, David's own sadism came into play in this situation, but Maharaji gave him and others license to inflict it on very vulnerable people.

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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 12:12:18 (EST)
From: bb
Email: None
To: chr(Chris)
Subject: Thanksgiving story!
Message:
I know one girl who left her two little ones in Atlanta
because of the heavy approach.
And numerous others.
Your right, the wrecked families were...
I just remembered a satsang where a girl told us about
'thanksgiving' when one of the relatives at the dinner table
asked her 'I hear you are doing meditation dear,'
and the Premies response was (perfect),
'Guru MaHARAJ JI's knowledge is so powerful that if
you cut off my mothers head and put it on the plate
in front of me It wouldnt affect me'
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Date: Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 21:46:08 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Brain damage?
Message:
Found this new entry in the 'Lives Wasted' section of ELK. Go figure...

Kenji Ide

It was a miracle

Kenji from Tokyo writes of some important events in his life...

I own a building where we have our local video events in Tokyo and a small recording studio, which has just been completed. In retrospect, what happened was all a miracle. Some years ago my father and I were about to sell this building and close the company because my father was 60 years old and his business was getting worse. In fact we were being approached by one of the most successful companies in our industry; the company wanted to buy our building. But because they did not have enough cash to pay us and my father refused to be paid by a promissory note, the deal was postponed.

A few years later I received Knowledge after hearing about Maharaji. In fact, I learned English mostly from him.

One day I sent an airmail to an Italian welding machine manufacturer to ask a price quotation. The name of the company was given in a catalog which my father brought back from a trade show in Europe a long time ago. Soon I received an airmail letter back from the company. I showed it to my father and he got extremely excited as if he has been waiting for the moment all his life!

He said: 'This is it!' A couple months later we travelled to Europe visiting the Italian company and a trade show in Germany to buy the product there. I was helping my father as a translator. Then we came back to Japan and started to sell the welding machines. We sold hundreds of units every year for over 10 years!

My father passed away in June this year at his age of 74, yet his face was peaceful as if he has done all he wanted to do in his life. He didn't received Knowledge, nor did he even try to want it, yet he certainly played his part leaving us a three stories building in Tokyo. Thank you.

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Date: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 00:45:21 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Post hoc, ergo propter hoc
Message:
I think that's the Latin for this logical fallacy I think it means: 'after, therefore because of.'

So, Kenje and his father hooked up with the Italian company after Kenje received knowledge, therefore, it happened because he received knowledge.

More than that, it all happened due to divine lila and grace so they would have a building in which to show 'local video events' 14 years later. OOOOoooo, almost spooky, isn't it?

Surely, if it weren't for the grace, they would be having 'video events' in a vacant parking lot.

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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 05:38:58 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Jim
Subject: The illusion of surrendered control (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 21:06:58 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: mishkat@gateway.net
To: All
Subject: To Larry from DC: e-mail
Message:
Hi Gary -
I hope you get to read this - I've been trying to answer your e-mail but your server keeps bouncing it back to me. BTW, we do know at least one of the same people.

Take care -
Katie

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Date: Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 22:03:45 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Larry
Subject: Correction
Message:
P.S. I meant to say Larry, NOT Gary, in the body of my post. Sorry about that.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 19:31:25 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Quitting the forum
Message:
I've been thinking about quitting the forum. It's become quite an obsession in my life. But I know that the only way to do that is to make a clean break, that is to just never even lurk, because lurking is like just having one cigarette or one drink after you've quit. Doesn't work.

I've heard goodbyes from people before. Only VP, so far as I know, has stuck with it. Nigel, I think has said goodbye a dozen times. And of course, Sir David isn't REALLY posting anymore. It just looks like that. But I'm wondering if I should even be considering leaving the forum. Why? The only reason I can think of is that I'm deeply attached to it. Is that such a bad thing? I don't know.

But I'm going to try to split. I don't even know why I'm announcing this. I should just do it, right? But if I succeed, I don't want to just leave without saying goodbye. A lot of you have meant an incredible amount to me. I don't want to mention names because I'm sure I'll forget somebody and I wouldn't want to do that. So, if you never hear from me again, goodbye people. Thanks for being here.

See you tomorrow, maybe.

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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 13:27:18 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: You'll be BACK! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 11:46:08 (EST)
From: Invite to
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Sir Davids Pub and forum
Message:
Jerry, here is a real way to pull away from the
front lines of the guru wars.
Head over to Sir Davids new forum.
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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 05:55:46 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Jerry
Subject: So long and thanks...
Message:
Jerry,

You are one of my favourite posters and I for one will miss your clarity and always perceptive contributions. Yeah, I had to quit quitting a while ago - it was getting to look kinda silly. Now I just reduce the output a little when I am busy with other commitments. But I understand entirely the need to get away sometimes. When you succeed (I think a month was my record) the break definitely does you good and helps you organise your life's priorities a bit more realistically. But I see the forum as pretty harmless addiction as well as a great social scene, especially in new email friendships etc., and it sure beats watching television.

But, Jerry, if you do quit, take care - and maybe come by and see us at Christmas, ok?

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Date: Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 21:30:30 (EST)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: Quitting the forum
Message:
Dont fergit that there is AA, which makes you never
take alchohol and another group that says at thier
meetings, discover and embrace moderation.
Drink moderately.
Maybe just take a week off and a week on?
what we need perhaps is a graduate forum.
No premies allowed where we hang out with less guru
subjects but input from the same incredible cast of characters.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 06:00:23 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: All
Subject: We've definitely been hacked
Message:
We've definitely been hacked this time. See below - I would guess at least 100 messages have gone.

Forum Administrators, how's the move going?

John.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 02:43:46 (EST)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: mbvictoria@hotmail.com
To: All
Subject: Jim's evasion....
Message:
Hi all

Jim has evaded a question from me by filing it away as “dumb”…

The question sprung from the Chinese government’s persecution of the Falun Gong movement in China. I was interested to further develop his views on this kind of “cult” repression, especially in regard to Maharaji and premies. I asked him the following question in his “A hard Choice” thread below….

”Jim, let's push this a bit further....

What if Maharaji had this many followers in Canada and you were the head of a totalitarian regime there; based on your current views of Maharaji and premies....would you enact the kind of repression that appears to be unfolding in China? If so, why? If not, why? “

His response

” That's such a dumb question I won't answer it.

Could it be that his answer would be too revealing of himself? Too much of a (self confessed) dilemma?

Jim, so it’s a dumb question, but humour me and answer anyway, please. Personally I think it’s an OK question and as you appear to have some weight on this forum, I’m sure that others(ex’s and premies) would be interested in your response. Of course you always expect answers to your questions, so any evasion would appear most hypocritical. C’mon, be brave man!

Mel

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Date: Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 06:01:09 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Mel's absurdity
Message:
Personally I think it’s an OK question and as you appear to have some weight on this forum, I’m sure that others(ex’s and premies) would be interested in your response.

Personally, I think you're a dumb son of a bitch. What kind of question is it to ask a person to pretend he's the 'head of a totalitarian regime?' Of course Jim would be oppressive IF HE WERE the head of a totalitarian regime. Anybody would, including you, you dumb fuck. It's a dumb question.

When are you going to learn how to think?

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Date: Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 05:40:30 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Jim did respond
Message:
Mel,

When you posted your first question about Falun Gong, I was the first to respond, and Jim responded to me saying he agreed entirely. In my post I said:-

I don't know what Jim's response will be but I definitely do not want the repression of cults by governments.

As Jim said he agreed entirely with this, surely he is right to say your second question was dumb as he had already made his view clear?

I then compared the ex-premie sites with premie sites as follows:-

My understanding of this and other anti-Maharaji sites is that we are providing balance. Notice how most of the anti-M sites have links to the pro-M sites, and none of the pro-M sites link to the anti-M sites. The exes here appear to stand for openness and freedom of speech. The premie sites stand for revisionism and repression of information. Which reminds you most of totalitarian states?

As you are accusing Jim of evasion, perhaps you could prove that you do not practise evasion by answering this question?

John.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 05:27:00 (EST)
From: Enough
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: My solution....
Message:
would be to preempt National Hockey Night in Canada and show a video of M at his Satsanging best. End of cult and now we return you to....
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Date: Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 05:04:15 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Re: Jim's evasion....
Message:
Hey Mel, I responded to your stuff about data of ashram premies being thrown out into the street. Did you contact Dick Cooper yet? Why not ask him to post here to put us straight.....but there again your all hotair you won't carry a thing through.

I know it's hard for many premies to be hoest and deal with facts.....but give it a try Mel and people here may respond to you better.

Meanwhile your whole atttitude evokes nothing but a 'fuck you' response from others.

Send my love to Sam an Lee.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 03:01:18 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Mel, refresh my memory
Message:
Was it you or was it someone else who gloated upon the discovery that, was it, bb somehow had misstated something?

If it was you then it was a momentous occasion for the ex-premie forum. I believe that we had an exodus of about 20 ex-premies from the forum because of your devastating expose and I think that 75 fence sitters continued to believe in Maharaji, 30 ex-premies returned to Knowledge, and Maharaji received an additional $67,000 in donations that month.

I agree with you on the importance of the issue of governmental totalitarian “cult” repression. We need and deserve and answer from Jim. After all, he is an officer of the court.

Perhaps, we should appoint an independent counsel like Government Inspector to further investigate Jim.

We need some answers here!

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Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 22:22:04 (EST)
From: youngold
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: 'Fare Thee Well' (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 22:33:52 (EST)
From: Nice try SHP!:::))
Email: None
To: youngold
Subject: Re: youngblum....you're beautiful pal!(NT)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 19:38:56 (EST)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Farewell and thanks
Message:
I've decided that I'm quiting this space for a variety of reasons. I've connected with some very interesting and compassionate people in this space and I'm very thankful for that. I think this forum is very important and I've certainly learnt a lot from it. It's been very clarifying.

I do hope that one day Jagdeo is brought to justice although I'm pretty certain that this will never happen. Thanks for all your support though. I've been really touched by it. It's been a profoundly healing experience for me.

I'll dedicate what I write to ex-prem orig.

Thanks again and good luck!

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Date: Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 00:09:21 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Re: Farewell and thanks
Message:
Abi,

Thanks for dropping by. Good luck on your book. Someone needs to write another one at this point in time.

Roger

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Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 21:03:32 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk
To: Abi
Subject: Re: Farewell and thanks
Message:
I have no hesitation in saying that yours are amongst the very best posts I have read here. I don't know what your job is but you definitely have a talent for writing and expressing yourself in print. 'The pen is mightier than the sword' is very true.
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Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 20:45:40 (EST)
From: URL
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Bye Abi & thanks for the post
Message:
Can't guarantee anything with Marianne 'cause it takes two to tango. But hey, I'm open... if there is respect anything can happen. As a matter of course I do respect her as a person and I respect her beliefs and values. I cannot however respect anyone who disparages MY beliefs and values. Therein lies the rub... there are many here who love to hate. Maybe I'm wrong Abi but that's my impression of her.
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Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 21:58:18 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: ARE YOU 'NIL' OR NOT?
Message:
Url,

1) Are you 'Nil' or not?

2) Why won't you answer the question?

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Date: Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 02:35:11 (EST)
From: URL
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: ARE YOU 'NIL' OR NOT?
Message:
1) Are you 'Nil' or not?

What does it matter who I am?

2) Why won't you answer the question?

What have you ever done for me?

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Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 21:32:42 (EST)
From: Hey, where's Nil?:::))
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: Nil, I swear...you must be the hampsters eternal asshole!(nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 21:20:06 (EST)
From: Buddhawicz
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: Please be careful, URL.
Message:
Therein lies the rub... there are many here who love to hate.

Remember URL, when you point with one finger.... there are THREE pointing back at you.

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Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 20:41:56 (EST)
From: URL
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Bye Abi & thanks for the post
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 20:41:09 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: djrayovac@aol.com
To: Abi
Subject: Farewell and thank you
Message:
Dear Abi (sounds like advice for the lovelorn and it seems fitting),

Thanks for your contributions over the past few weeks (or has it been months- I guess including your stuff posted by Anth). You have given us a lot and once again demonstrated our strength is in our plurality. It does a mean a lot for you to come forward and tell your story. I'm sure it isn't easy.

I hope you choose to contribute sometime. This forum is not really a daily hangout for most people who come here. Unfortunately, it's bypassed entirely by some people who don't find it congenial.

I've been out since '81. The commitment I made still isn't dead. I feel for the many people (exes) involved, but not the guru and his power brokers.

I would guess there were over 100,000 initiated by 1980 in the US alone (but it's only a guess). With the measly numbers that el Mirage can muster up these days, it seems pretty obvious that there are thousands of us out there who made a strong commitment and left.

I wish we felt like we had a central meeting point. This site generates a lot of discussion, but the small numbers of people participating don't reflect the huge numbers of exes who care about each other IMO.

If I had never seen this site, I would have felt no different. The love I felt was a love amongst the people not the bakti bs that Rawatt turns into Swiss bank accounts.

I hope we see you again and that you stay in touch. Just don't disappear on us. All the best to you and yours.

And drop me a line if you get a chance.

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Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 18:20:33 (EST)
From: URL
Email: None
To: All
Subject: To Abi from below
Message:
Abi: This is in response to your post below describing how badly the premies in your community responded when your brother passed away.

Your post reminded me of a deficiency about myself that I had to address after leaving the ashram... and I agree that it was somewhat related to being a premie. That is, I was never very good at knowing the proper protocols for different social settings. For example, what do you bring to a cocktail party, or barbecue you are invited to by one of your co-workers. How do you greet and say goodbye to your host; your hostess? How do you handle being given a gift or compliment. Little unimportant things to most people but creates a feeling of awkwardness? The bigger issues were even more difficult, like what do you say when somebody loses a loved one? If they're close to you; if they're not?

If asked today what to do in any given situation I would offer a generic answer of, 'Just be yourself but be sincere'. I learned that if you are, you will empathise in the right way, understand the sensitivities, and probably say and do the right things. From that basic rule of thumb, I have understood social protocol to a degree that today I'm not usually awkward... although I'm constantly encountering new situations that throw me off.

Most people learn these kinds of things through socialisation during childhood and young adulthood. I received Knowledge when I was in my early 20's coming from a counter-culture background, and I would say that I was not adequately socialised by my middle-class parents as a child. I have had to learn most of what I know since getting out into the world, pursuing a career, getting married, etc.

As a premie, there was little need to socialise outside of the premie community, which was a young and unsophisticated crowd, so I suspect my example was fairly typical. Compounding that is the underlying premise that, as a premie, even if you don't 'handle yourself' in a socially admirable way, that's ok... the universe doesn't judge you and a sincere heart is always forgiven. This 'refuge' from social consequence puts little incentive into learning good social graces.

So yes, our premie micro-society was indeed deficient in the arena of proper social protocol, which you point out in your post. They are not so much today, but the degree it isn't is commensurate with the degree of normal socialisation each individual in the group has taken on. And as you probably know, some premies are still stuck in the past.

But these social refugees were not and are not bad people... that I hope you would agree. Like myself they never learned those social graces because that was not something put as a high priority in the 70's and early 80s. The hurt I caused during that era by my insensitivity I have had to face and make amends for... and I have been forgiven.

For myself it would have been much worse if I had not put self-knowledge as my priority during that time in my life. That provided a foundation upon which to stand when after a number of years I came back and wanted to make amends. I know this foundation fostered the respect for me that allowed them to forgive me... thankfully mixed with a little of their own love and compassion.

Now I know some of you folks will cry foul by this post and accuse me of revisionism… I don't care. There are more shades to the spectrum than black and white, and there are more reasons for premie behaviour than a one-dimensional, 'Because of the cult leader'.

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Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 19:14:08 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: Be yourself, URL
Message:
If asked today what to do in any given situation I would offer a generic answer of, 'Just be yourself but be sincere'.

Let me ask you. Do you think you ever would have known yourself if not for Maharaji? I think he estranged me from myself.

...as a premie, even if you don't 'handle yourself' in a socially admirable way, that's ok... the universe doesn't judge you and a sincere heart is always forgiven.

Does that include saying anything negative about the cult leader? What if I were to say, with the most sincere heart, 'Gee, y'know. I know I'm supposed to be happy, having the most perfect Knowledge and all, but I'm the most miserable fuck I know. How can this be? I don't think this Knowledge is for me, and to be quite honest, I don't think Maharaji is either.' What would you say, URL? You wouldn't say that I lacked commitment or anything, would you? You wouldn't say stuff like, 'You've got to want it', would you? You'd just see that my heart is sincere and leave it at that, right?

There are more shades to the spectrum than black and white, and there are more reasons for premie behaviour than a one-dimensional, 'Because of the cult leader'.

But he's at least ONE reason, isn't he? And his influence in that regard has been most detrimental to our growth as social creatures. I'm a complete flop and I'm certain that being a premie, trying to follow Maharaji's agya of forsaking the world is largely responsible for that.

The only thing I really agree with you in this post is when you said 'Be yourself'. I can honestly say that I can't be that and a premie at the same time.

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Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 20:16:31 (EST)
From: URL
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: Be yourself, URL
Message:
Let me ask you. Do you think you ever would have known yourself if not for Maharaji? I think he estranged me from myself.

He allowed me to know myself to a greater depth because I had a rope of sanity to hold onto whilst I plumbed the depths. That rope was the experience of Knowledge.

'Gee, y'know. I know I'm supposed to be happy, having the most perfect Knowledge and all, but I'm the most miserable fuck I know. How can this be? I don't think this Knowledge is for me, and to be quite honest, I don't think Maharaji is either.' What would you say, URL?

I'd say that's the first step to being honest with yourself. A step too far would be to assert that because it doesn't work for you, it doesn't work for someone like me.

You wouldn't say that I lacked commitment or anything, would you? You wouldn't say stuff like, 'You've got to want it', would you? You'd just see that my heart is sincere and leave it at that, right?

The question is, could you just leave it at that. Clearly wanting it and making a committment are very important to Knowledge bearing positive fruit, but I guess the important thing is can you accept yourself. What I have to say is rather meaningless.

But he's at least ONE reason, isn't he? And his influence in that regard has been most detrimental to our growth as social creatures. I'm a complete flop and I'm certain that being a premie, trying to follow Maharaji's agya of forsaking the world is largely responsible for that.

Jerry I don't have the stomache for a shit fight right now so I don't want to say anything too controversial, but it's a question of whether or not an individual can keep the good while working to overcome the bad. As I said in my story, I had to work at learning the social protocols that living in the sheltered premie world didn't teach me. But I still value highly the degree of self-knowledge that practising helped me to acheive. And having the focus on self-knowledge at that time was perfect for me because in my opinion that was a greater priority for me than being socially savvy. In the end I was able to accomplish both objectives because I wanted both of them.

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Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 18:56:21 (EST)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: Re: To Abi from below
Message:
URL,

I was quite moved by your post and I do agree with it. I can certainly relate to it anyhow. When my brother died so many of the premies just didn't know what to do. I hardly did myself. All I knew was that I was in more pain then I'd ever been in before and that I had to do all I could to lay him to rest in a respectful manner. But the thing which shocked me is that the premies did nothing at all. Not one socially inadequate attempt to offer support came our way. I found this very confusing because I'd thought that being a premie was all about having an open heart, having compassion and spreading love etc.

I do think that being a premie back in the 70s and 80 was about living in a seperate world. That was certainly my experience. It was hard for me to move out of that and discover and practice the social rules which most people live by. I'm still not sure that I've figured them all out. I was always told to have an open heart and be honest and I've come to realise that often people just take advantage of that. I was taught to always see the spark of God in people, to never say a bad word about anyone, to be a floaty, smiley person. Trouble is things are a bit tougher out there in the real world!

I think that it was especially difficult for my brothers and I because we really didn't have a clue about the real world. Given that my parents were also invested in an Emile-like fantasy about child-rearing they'd spent no energy at all in preparing us for any sort of encounter with the spiritually inauthentic modern world. Modernity took a wrong turn , the Enlightenment was a big mistake, we should all go back to Nature etc. It just doesn't work as we found out to our great cost.

So URL: no bad feelings. If premie and ex-premie are going to talk in a productive way we have to move past being reactionary about our differences.

Having said that I would really appreciate it if you could try and mend things with Marianne. Can you do that for me?

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