Forum IV: The Ex-Premie Forum
Archive: 10
From: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 To: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 Page: 1 Of: 5


honesty -:- video-documentary -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 14:18:29 (EST)
__ JW -:- I say hire Visions to do it -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 14:45:45 (EST)
__ __ Rabbi Nimstein -:- Re: I say hire Visions to do it -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 19:49:54 (EST)
__ Roger eDrek -:- Re: video-documentary -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 14:49:58 (EST)
__ __ Katie -:- Re: video-documentary -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 19:42:09 (EST)

gerry -:- Veteran's Day -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 13:28:06 (EST)
__ Katie -:- Armistice Day -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 17:50:27 (EST)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- Re: Armistice Day -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 20:08:13 (EST)
__ __ __ Robyn -:- Re: Armistice Day -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 21:25:28 (EST)
__ __ __ Katie -:- Re: Armistice Day -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 20:30:03 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Re: Armistice Day -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 21:00:06 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Howard Zinn: WWI -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 14:28:27 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Re: Howard Zinn: WWI -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 21:05:36 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Re: Howard Zinn: WWI -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 22:23:24 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Good idea re the walk :-) (nt) -:- Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 11:11:01 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Re: Howard Zinn: WWI -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 01:45:02 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Will do...thanks (nt) -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 11:13:46 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Enough -:- Re: Armistice Day -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 21:07:16 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Re: Armistice Day -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 22:43:12 (EST)
Robyn -:- Re: Veteran's Day -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 15:04:23 (EST)

Shp -:- Jim, the 'what if' game swings both ways -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 12:46:04 (EST)
__ Joey -:- The 'what if ' game may swing both ways, but you swing all over the place!!nt -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 00:23:04 (EST)
__ Katie -:- Master of the Age and Knowledge of all Knowledges?? -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 18:17:07 (EST)
__ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: Master of the Age and Knowledge of all Knowledges?? -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 23:53:31 (EST)
__ __ __ Charlie -:- Re: Giving K a chance -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 17:28:13 (EST)
__ __ __ Katie -:- Re: Master of the Age and Knowledge of all Knowledges?? -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 00:45:55 (EST)
__ __ Shp -:- Master of one's self and Knowledge of same -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 18:43:35 (EST)
__ __ __ Katie -:- Re: Master of one's self and Knowledge of same -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 19:32:39 (EST)
__ Jim -:- You are SO stupid. I can't wait for the next example -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 16:14:31 (EST)
__ __ Shp -:- Everyone can see....everyone will see -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 16:46:48 (EST)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Fuck off with your 'It is said ...' crap (nt) -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 17:10:09 (EST)
__ Roger eDrek -:- The Party Line - Knowledge of all Knowledges -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 15:52:32 (EST)
__ __ Shp -:- Better than living in a shithouse built by an angry beaver -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 17:06:14 (EST)
__ __ __ Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: Better than living in a shithouse built by an angry beaver -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 16:14:57 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Shp -:- Hey Mickey you're so blind, you're so blind you blow my mind... -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 16:54:16 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: Hey Mickey you're so fine, you're so fine you blow my mind... -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 17:10:39 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Reply to Mickey -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 17:22:28 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: Reply to Mickey -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 18:21:08 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- You are commanded to forgive 77 times a day if need be -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 12:19:36 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Even I know that's 70 times 7! -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 13:29:11 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Katie, you are so rigtht! -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 16:50:12 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Re: Katie, you are so rigtht! -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 17:55:00 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Re: Katie, you are so rigtht! -:- Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 12:20:57 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Re: Reply to Mickey -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 19:12:17 (EST)
__ __ __ Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: Better than living in a shithouse built by an angry beaver -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 16:13:43 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Mickey the computer inept -:- There seems to be an echo here.....Sorry nt -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 16:19:49 (EST)
__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Desperate plea to Shp - Go! Leave this place. -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 05:09:42 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Shp -:- Reply to Roger -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 13:24:45 (EST)
__ __ __ Joey -:- Where YOU BREATHE is a shithouse Shp...NOT the forum!!(nt) -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 00:41:59 (EST)
__ Roger eDrek -:- Better to reign in hell than serve in Maharaji's heaven (nt) -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 14:58:36 (EST)
__ Cynthia G. -:- Get off the Soap Box Shp!!! (nt) -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 14:09:16 (EST)

RT -:- .from Me and Cult Observer web site -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 12:40:58 (EST)
__ Robyn -:- Re: .from Me and Cult Observer web site -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 22:05:06 (EST)
__ __ Katie -:- Re: .from Me and Cult Observer web site -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 01:18:34 (EST)

Jim -:- Sanford Pass says it all -:- Wed, Nov 10, 1999 at 23:24:23 (EST)
__ Susan -:- SHP -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 11:20:21 (EST)
__ __ Katie -:- I agree with Susan -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 18:45:03 (EST)
__ __ __ Shp -:- Reply to Katie -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 19:04:49 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- Re: Reply to Katie -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 19:22:18 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Re: Reply to Katie -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 20:32:14 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Re: Reply to Katie -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 20:46:37 (EST)
__ __ Jim -:- That's ridiculous, Susan -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 16:31:06 (EST)
__ __ Shp -:- Re: SUSAN -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 11:56:18 (EST)
__ Roger eDrek -:- Does this mean that Shp is gonna URL out of here? -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 04:26:28 (EST)
__ __ who knows -:- one word about Shp -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 10:06:55 (EST)
__ __ __ Jim -:- You guys completely miss the point -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 16:39:52 (EST)
__ __ __ Shp -:- Re: a word about who knows -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 10:47:12 (EST)
__ __ Shp -:- Reply to Roger -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 09:57:11 (EST)
__ __ __ gerry -:- Re: Reply to Roger -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 10:54:58 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Shp -:- Re: Reply to gerry -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 11:41:57 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Re: Reply to gerry -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 14:04:37 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Re: Reply to gerry -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 14:54:41 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- You're a coward, Shp -- plain and simple -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 17:00:13 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names really piss me off sometimes -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 18:35:03 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Shades of the old Government Inspector (G.I.) -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 06:18:05 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Reply to Roger -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 13:39:19 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia G. -:- Child Abuse and Confusion -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 13:47:44 (EST)

Robyn -:- Happy Belated Birthday Sir Dave -:- Wed, Nov 10, 1999 at 19:19:38 (EST)
__ Enough -:- Re: Happy Belated Birthday Sir Dave -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 08:56:20 (EST)
__ Susan -:- Happy Birthday Sir Dave! (nt) -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 11:42:38 (EST)
__ VP -:- Re: Happy Belated Birthday Sir Dave -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 11:36:37 (EST)
__ Katie -:- Re: Happy Belated Birthday Sir Dave -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 00:39:59 (EST)
__ Sir Dave -:- Re: Happy Belated Birthday Sir Dave -:- Wed, Nov 10, 1999 at 20:17:47 (EST)
__ __ Roger eDrek -:- You mean to say that Sir Dave was like born? He didn't just happen? -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 04:13:02 (EST)
__ __ __ Sir Dave PLC INC -:- Re: You mean to say that Sir Dave was like born? He didn't just happen? -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 12:14:17 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Robyn -:- and The Bicycle Repair Man! :) (nt) -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 15:00:55 (EST)

Sir Dave -:- Is this the main thrust? -:- Wed, Nov 10, 1999 at 13:14:11 (EST)
__ Blackheart -:- This is good stuff ! -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 00:33:27 (EST)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- Do me a favour! -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 07:25:51 (EST)
__ __ __ Blackheart -:- Alexander, Napoleon, D-Day??? -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 13:25:11 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Maharaji has declared war on US! -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 13:46:07 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Blackheart -:- When? -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 14:00:04 (EST)
__ Roger eDrek -:- Forget the Password Forum, check out the Porno site! -:- Wed, Nov 10, 1999 at 15:08:20 (EST)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- Re: Forget the Password Forum, check out the Porno site! -:- Wed, Nov 10, 1999 at 20:08:01 (EST)
__ alias -:- Re: Is this the main thrust? -:- Wed, Nov 10, 1999 at 13:34:05 (EST)
__ __ Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: Is this the main thrust? -:- Wed, Nov 10, 1999 at 22:45:13 (EST)
__ __ __ Katie -:- Howdy, Mickey! -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 23:26:41 (EST)
__ __ __ Alias -:- Re: Is this the main thrust? -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 22:19:23 (EST)

Jim -:- Uh oh... I've run out of epithets -:- Wed, Nov 10, 1999 at 11:13:59 (EST)
__ Roger eDrek -:- Jim, you know what to do - Just Do It! -:- Wed, Nov 10, 1999 at 15:18:47 (EST)
__ __ Deputy Dog -:- Take a breather Rog! (nt) -:- Wed, Nov 10, 1999 at 22:40:49 (EST)

Cynthia G. -:- Mili Gives Satsang--See..... -:- Wed, Nov 10, 1999 at 08:57:21 (EST)
__ Robyn -:- Happy Birthday Cynthia! :) -:- Wed, Nov 10, 1999 at 19:24:07 (EST)
__ __ Katie -:- Re: Happy Birthday Cynthia! :) -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 00:37:49 (EST)
__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Happy Birthday Cynthia! -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 04:28:20 (EST)
__ Jim -:- Happy Birthday ... and isn't Mili an idiot? -:- Wed, Nov 10, 1999 at 11:08:33 (EST)
__ __ Marianne -:- He's a successful private investor... -:- Wed, Nov 10, 1999 at 15:16:50 (EST)
__ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- Re: He's a successful private investor... -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 10:44:50 (EST)
__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- No one needs to know that -:- Wed, Nov 10, 1999 at 15:26:22 (EST)
__ Mili -:- Re: Mili Gives Satsang--See..... -:- Wed, Nov 10, 1999 at 11:07:19 (EST)
__ __ Cynthia G. -:- Thanks, Jim -:- Wed, Nov 10, 1999 at 11:25:41 (EST)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Sorry, is that your SPIRITUAL birthday? -:- Wed, Nov 10, 1999 at 11:34:44 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia G. -:- Sing me a bajan b-day tune! -:- Wed, Nov 10, 1999 at 13:45:27 (EST)


Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 14:18:29 (EST)
From: honesty
Email: None
To: All
Subject: video-documentary
Message:
Has anyone considered making a video concerning m and his organization and confronting all the hypocrisies and broken promises throughout all the years, esp. regarding the revisionist history, false claims and out and out bizarreness of the whole thing? This can be done fairly easily and cheaply, and distributed, along with a web site address specifically dedicated to new people checking knowledge out to people at public programs and possibly downloaded on the net. Does anyone else think this is possible? Ideas,suggestions,comments?
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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 14:45:45 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: honesty
Subject: I say hire Visions to do it
Message:
I have heard they will do anything for the right price.
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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 19:49:54 (EST)
From: Rabbi Nimstein
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Re: I say hire Visions to do it
Message:
Are you kidding me?! I'm looking for someone to do my son's Bar-Mitzvah!

Do you think they might offer me any rabbinical discounts?
Please let me know.

Shalom,

Rabbi Nimstein

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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 14:49:58 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: honesty
Subject: Re: video-documentary
Message:
That would be good, but...

It would be a lot of work. Apocalypse Now originally scheduled to be shot over six weeks, ended up taking 16 months. And Maharaji would be more squirrelly than Brando.

Another problem would be distribution. A video of any length (more than one minute) would be many, many megabytes, if not hundreds of megabytes. Until people have fiber optic connections to the Internet downloading would be too slow.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 19:42:09 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Re: video-documentary
Message:
Hi Rob, and yk -
It wouldn't necessarily have to be on-line. We have been able to make copies of the LOTU video for about $13 apiece. I know someone who has copies of almost all the old M movies, and a lot of it could be spliced from there (if you knew how to do that stuff, which I do not).
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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 13:28:06 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Veteran's Day
Message:
To Mike (if you're out there) and all others who served our country in the military during peacetime and war: A big thank you !!!
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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 17:50:27 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Armistice Day
Message:
Hey Gerry (and Mike - I miss you too!)-
As I'm sure you know, Veteran's Day was originally called Armistice Day because that's the date the Armistice was signed for WWI (used to be called 'the great war'). There is a famous poem about WWI that some people think is really sappy, but that I find very relevant, so I'll quote part of it here.
Take care,
Katie

In Flanders fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses, row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.

We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow
Loved and were loved, and now we lie
In Flanders fields.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 20:08:13 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Armistice Day
Message:
Armistice day is remembered here in Britian in a big way. At the eleventh hour (11 am) on the eleventh day of the eleventh month, everything stops for two minutes silence all over Britain.

All over the country workers stop working, shops and supermarkets stop their business, radio and TV stops also and two minutes silence is kept in remembrance of all the war dead.

It happened today once again and poignant was seeing the Queen Mother who has seen two World Wars, standing in silent remembrance with all the old soldiers.

We also have Remembrance Sunday which is the nearest Sunday to Armistice day and this coming Sunday, this year. The veterens war charities sell poppies throughout this time and everywhere people are wearing poppies.

After the carnage on the fields of Flanders in the Great War, where nine million young men died fighting, there bloomed red poppies, growing out of the mud, blood and death of that tragic place.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 21:25:28 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Re: Armistice Day
Message:
Dear Dave,
Thanks for that. I didn't know about your moment of scilence and they sell those poppies here too and I never knew why.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 20:30:03 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Re: Armistice Day
Message:
Dear David -
Poppies are sold here as well, although not as much in recent years.

I have read a lot of British fiction and non-fiction and have been amazed at the profound effect that WWI had on the generation of young men who fought in it. (Actually, my grandfather fought in it and was gassed, but I think the most significant wars in the US have been the Civil War and the VietNam war). WWI was truly horrendous - more horrendous that I would have ever realized from what I learned in history class and so forth. I really wish it HAD been the 'War to End all Wars', like people thought it would be.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 21:00:06 (EST)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Armistice Day
Message:
Speaking of literature about WWI, a fabulous book by Sebastien Japrisot, entitled 'A Very Long Engagement,' was heartwrenching. It won the 1991 Prix Interallie when it was published in France. Here's the publisher's note:
In January 1917, five wounded French soldiers are brought to the front by their own troops, forced into the no-man's land between the French and German armies, and left to die in the crossfire. Their crime was that of 'self-mutilation': each had allegedly shot himself in the hand to avoid further combat. Their brutal punishment has been hushed up for over two years when Mathilde Donnay, unable to walk since childhood, begins a relentless quest to find out whether her fiance, officially 'killed in the line of duty,' might still be alive. Tipped off by a letter from a dying soldier, the shrewd, sardonic, and wonderfully imaginative Mathilde scours the country for information about the men. As she carries her search to its end, an elaborate web of deception and coincidence emerges, and Mathilde finds herself face to face with the horrors--and the acts of kindness--brought about by the war.

Another great book is the art of Otto Dix whose paintings foreshadowed WWI.

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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 14:28:27 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Howard Zinn: WWI
Message:
I also think it's good to think about those ordinary people who gave their lives to this country, even if the goverment probably was very wrong in asking them to do so.

I think the view of WWI in the states was very different than in the UK. Although American textbooks talk about WWI as a noble war that the US population supported, actually, there was much opposition to it, before and during.

You can see why. The advanced capitalist countries of Europe were fighting over boundaries, colonies and spheres of influence. They were competing for Alsace Lorraine, the Balkans, Africa and the Middle East. That's what it was about. And the US eventually joined them out of similar calculations. You can see why the general population did not see a need to put their lives on the line for something like that. Like with the Vietnam war, and unlike WWII, many just didn't see how they were 'defending their country' by fighting in that war.

When the war began in 1914, years before the US declared war, the US was mired in a deep recession and war production lifted the American economy out of the doldrums, and indelibly tied the US to the British. And while some of the prosperity trickled down to the masses, most of it went to a few hands, especially companies like J.P. Morgan and Company which acted as agents for the Allies. In 1915 the US lifted the ban on private bank loans to the Allies and Morgan could then lend money in such great amounts as to both make great profit and tie American finance closely to the interest of a British victory in the war against Germany.

Americans did not rally around the US government's poorly-reasoned battle cry either. Six weeks after the declaration of war and Wilson's call for 1 million American volunteers, only 73,000 had signed up and Congress had to institute a draft. The goverment also hired veteran news reporter George Creel to propogandize the war. Creel set up the 'Committee on Public Information' and organized 75,000 speakers to deliver 750,000 pro-war speeches in 5,000 cities and towns across the US. The primary motivations for US involvement in WWI had to do with economics and world trade. It also provided a convenient opportunity for the government to quash the insurgent American Socialist movement that had been gaining large numbers in every part of the country. 10 socialist legislators were elected to the New York assembly in 1917.

But Americans still didn't buy it. Opposition to the war and the draft spurred well-attended protests all over the nation. In the end, 65,000 men declared themselves conscientious objectors and refused to fight. More than 330,000 were declared draft evaders by the end of the war.

The response of the government was the Espionage Act of 1917 which was used to silence those who spoke out against the war and to imprison Socialist leaders, like Eugene V. Debs. About 900 people went to prison under the Espionage Act during WWI. It wasn't a time to be proud of.

Ten million men died on the battlefields of WWI, and another 20 million people died from starvation and disease brought on by the war. Writes Zinn: 'And no one since that day has been able to show that the war brought on any gain for humanity that would be worth one human life.'

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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 21:05:36 (EST)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Re: Howard Zinn: WWI
Message:
And of those poor souls who survive wars, the emotional scars remain forever. My father was one of the troops who liberated Dachau, and of the many times I asked him about the camps, his sole statement every time, 'It's amazing what one human can do to another,' was eloquent testimony to the horror that is war. Soldiers appear to be cannon fodder for bankers.

BTW, Zinn rocks.

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 22:23:24 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Re: Howard Zinn: WWI
Message:
Soldiers appear to be cannon fodder for bankers.

This sure seems to be the case.

My grandfather was wounded by shrapnel in France WW1. He almost NEVER talked about the war. He was in those horrible trench battles. All to protect some rich capitalists' 'interests.'

I could get really worked up over this issue but I think I'll take a walk instead...

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Date: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 11:11:01 (EST)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Good idea re the walk :-) (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 01:45:02 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Re: Howard Zinn: WWI
Message:
Yeah, sometimes the survivors aren't much better off.
Yes, Howard Zinn is a national treasure. 'The Peoples History of the United States' should be required reading, and I loved his last book -- even the title is great: 'You Can't Stand Still On A Moving Train.'

By the way, Lynn Chadwick, Berry and Pacifica just pulled another atrocity. Verna Avery-Brown and Amy Goodman, the Pacifica 'stars' may quit over it. Check out the website for the latest, and be sure to read Amy Goodman's letters to Berry and the Board.

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 11:13:46 (EST)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Will do...thanks (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 21:07:16 (EST)
From: Enough
Email: None
To: Monmot/All
Subject: Re: Armistice Day
Message:
ALL QUIET ON THE WESTERN FRONT is the closest I've ever been to being at war. It is terrifying.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 22:43:12 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Enough
Subject: Re: Armistice Day
Message:
I really liked 'Goodbye to All That' by Robert Graves. Also, the Pat Barker trilogy of novels about WWI has been recommended to me by several people, but they are too intense for me to read.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 15:04:23 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: Veteran's Day
Message:
Dear Gerry and all,
I'd like to second that thank you Gerry. I am working and there are classes so I forgot it was a holiday. Even the chimeny sweep was working today at my house. And Mike, if you see this, I MISS YOU!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 12:46:04 (EST)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, the 'what if' game swings both ways
Message:
Jim sed:
Here's the scenario fuckface --
you, the big-ass champion of children, sit in a room with Abi, Susan and the Hamster. They
ask him how in the world he could have not taken Jagdeo out of commission. He asks you to usher them out of the room. What would you do?

Shp sez:

I already answered that question or something very similar in a previous post. I believe it was Marianne or Susan who asked me something very close to that. Gotta pay attention, Jim. I haven't got time to repeat myself just for you.

Here's one for you: somehow all the contradictions, paradoxes, incidents and accidents are
all overcome, explained or just dissolve from lack of substance, and it becomes obvious to
you that Maharaji really is the Master of this age and has come to reveal the Knowledge of all Knowledges....and you are in a room with him and he asks you to tell him about yourself.
What would you say?

Shp

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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 00:23:04 (EST)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: The 'what if ' game may swing both ways, but you swing all over the place!!nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 18:17:07 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Master of the Age and Knowledge of all Knowledges??
Message:
Dear Sandy -
You wrote:
Here's one for you: somehow all the contradictions, paradoxes, incidents and accidents are all overcome, explained or just dissolve from lack of substance, and it becomes obvious to you that Maharaji really is the Master of this age and has come to reveal the Knowledge of all edges....and you are in a room with him and he asks you to tell him about yourself.

I have a couple of problems with this question. First of all, I DO NOT believe that there is ONE master of this age or any age. I don't believe in the 'Satguru Lineage' and so forth. And I especially find it weird that some guy in India would find out that his SON was the next Satguru.

Another problem - I don't believe that the way Maharaji 'reveals Knowledge' is necessarily for everyone. I have had much more transcendent and spiritual experiences by doing other kinds of meditation, visualization, therapy, and so forth than I ever did with the four 'knowledge' techniques as revealed by Maharaji. I know a lot of people (both premies and ex-premies) get a lot out of practicing the 'knowledge' meditation as taught by Maharaji, so I'm not disrespecting it here. I just don't think it's the same for everyone. Some people I know just love meditating using the techniques, other people don't experience anything, and yet other people have found much more fufillment in different practices.

One thing I've learned in my life is to be very wary when someone tells me something is the ONLY way, and the RIGHT way for everyone. I have had people tell me this about macrobiotics, rolfing, raw food, rebirthing, past-life 'clearances', Jesus, Mormonism, the Catholic church, atheism, yoga (many kinds), neuro-linguistic programming, Freudian analysis, many different kinds of herbs and diets, various kinds of therapy, pharmaceutical drugs, and so on and so forth. You can find a million websites where people claim to have found the one secret to happiness, fufillment, and spiritual clarity. I think that everyone is different, and that there is not ONE teacher or ONE path for all of us.

One of the things that bothers me about premies who post on this forum is that they seem to feel that they have the ONE way to salvation. I can accept the fact that these people have an experience that is fufilling for them - the problem I have is that they often cannot accept that that experience was NOT fufilling for me, and for many other people who post here. The belief that Maharaji's knowledge meditation should work for everyone has caused many people that I know a great deal of pain - the corrolary belief to this is that IF it doesn't work for you, then there is something WRONG with you. In other words, if you don't experience much, then you are NOT OK. I don't think this is true, and that's one of the reasons I post here so much.

Take care, Sandy -
Katie

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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 23:53:31 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Master of the Age and Knowledge of all Knowledges??
Message:
Ditto, Katie.

Your post really hit the spot.

I happen to get a lot out of the four Knowledge techniques, but I know many people who have had genuine transcendent and spiritual experiences by doing other kinds of meditation, visualization, therapy etc.

I know an evangelical Christian woman who I would definitely consider a premie, (i.e., a lover of Truth.)

One of my best buds in high school became quite involved in the TM movement and now works in the stock market. He is one of the most conscious people you could ever meet.

I did TM before K, and I had a powerful kick-ass experience at an 'est' training in 1978. That training had an incredibly profound affect on me, to this day. So you're right, there are a lot of powerful and beneficial techniques out there, and people are taking advantage of them.

All Maharaji asks is that people give the four techniques of Knowledge a chance. If you give them a chance and don't get anything out of them, then by all means try something else. M says 'If you like it fine, if you don't like it fine.' So if you take this statement at face value, I don't think it would bother him if you tried something else. As long as you gave K a decent chance.

How could people translate that into 'a great deal of pain?' I know I wouldn't. You got to find out what's right for you.

This is the kind of thoughtful stuff I was hoping to find on this sight.

Dep

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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 17:28:13 (EST)
From: Charlie
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Re: Giving K a chance
Message:
DD

do you think that the premies of Satpal have 'knowledge' or just four techniques of meditation?

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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 00:45:55 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Re: Master of the Age and Knowledge of all Knowledges??
Message:
Dear Dep -
(You have got to be around the same age as me to remember Deputy Dawg, but nevermind).

You wrote:
All Maharaji asks is that people give the four techniques of Knowledge a chance. If you give them a chance and don't get anything out of them, then by all means try something else. M says 'If you like it fine, if you don't like it fine.' So if you take this statement at face value, I don't think it would bother him if you tried something else. As long as you gave K a decent chance.

How could people translate that into 'a great deal of pain?' I know I wouldn't. You got to find out what's right for you.

Dep, I don't know when you got K (I received it in 1972), or how impressionable you were (I was 16 - enough said right there!), but I, and the premies around me, really believed that Maharaji was the THE manifestation of God for our time. In other words, we believed he was like Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed, etc. I cannot ever remember Maharaji saying anything like 'If you like it fine, if you don't like it fine.' The prevailing feeling was more like 'if Knowledge doesn't work for you, then there is something WRONG with you.' That's why non-experience caused people a great deal of pain. (I allude to this in my 'responsibility for suicide' post above.) Those of us who really tried to practice knowledge (meditation, service, and satsang) and who didn't experience anything much felt like we were unworthy, flawed, and somehow LESS than other people who DID have 'that' experience. And believe me, a lot of people lied about having 'that' experience in satsang. It's sad when I think back on it.

Anyway, I am glad to hear you say that you feel other forms of experience are equally valid. I even know people who post on this site that have been tremendously liberated by becoming atheists - they have been able, for the first time, to experience the world and really appreciate it instead of putting it through all kinds of weird filters.

Personally, I don't think much of Maharaji himself. However, I do know that there are people who have received great benefit from practicing the meditation and have NOT also taken on the belief that Maharaji is god, that the knowledge meditation is the only way, and so on and so forth. I respect those people's experience, honestly. The main thing I object to (as I'm sure you know) is people who say that M's knowledge meditation is the only way, that M is the incarnation of god, and so forth.

Anyway, glad we could connect on this level.
Take care,
Katie

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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 18:43:35 (EST)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Master of one's self and Knowledge of same
Message:
Dear Katie,

I meant no exclusivity in my post, a la Jesus freaks who say it's the Only way. Words words words.
I have had many experiences with people and situations that were more intense for me than seeing Maharaji or practicing Knowledge, but they were one time events. And Knowledge always works no matter what. I cannot describe it and won't bore you trying.

Sometimes I wish I knew all you guys without the same frame of reference. Like in the book Stranger in a Strange Land at the end where someone says the old axiom of the story's setting where folks said 'thou art god' to each other, and on the last page somebody says something like, screw that, let's just get on with what we have to do' or something like that. Like god is totally incorporated into our beings once and for all and we don't have to talk about it anymore. That would be nice.
Shp

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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 19:32:39 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Re: Master of one's self and Knowledge of same
Message:
Dear Sandy -
I already answered your similar post in a thread below where you and Susan were talking, but I thought I'd put a post up here too. I'll repeat myself and say I am glad you don't believe in exclusivity (and all those beliefs that go with it). I think that is one of the things that people here struggle with the most. I am fortunate that I was not raised with a strongly religious background (AA was the closest thing to that for my family, and it took me a while to overcome THOSE beliefs, but I did - the Guru Papers helped!) and thus am able to finally understand that there are different paths for different people.

I wrote more about meeting face to face in my post below, but I don't think the Internet is the greatest way to get to know people. I have become very close 'E' friends with some of the people on this forum, but meeting them in person was always a revelation and has always confirmed and deepened our friendship.

Anyway, take care, and I do hope that as many of us as possible can meet in person some day.

Love,
Katie

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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 16:14:31 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: You are SO stupid. I can't wait for the next example
Message:
That's like saying 'Jim, what if it turns out there really is a Santa Claus and all these years you've been making fun of him and stuff...'

You're a first-class fool, Shp. Every one can see that.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 16:46:48 (EST)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Everyone can see....everyone will see
Message:
You're a first-class fool, Shp. Every one can see that.

So Jim, gee Everyone???
Omygod. I had no idea you were so connected.
So you think I'm 1st class at something?
It is said that God is going to take the foolish things of this world to confound the wise and prudent.
Thanks for the compliment.

Shp

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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 17:10:09 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Fuck off with your 'It is said ...' crap (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 15:52:32 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: The Party Line - Knowledge of all Knowledges
Message:
Shp, forgive me if I don't respond to your other work today. I can't get past reading it. I do believe that sarcasm is often appropriate when talking to slippery hardcore premies.

Maharaji really is the Master of this age and has come to reveal the Knowledge of all Knowledges

So what do we have here? I'm assuming that the above is your belief even though you posed it as a hypothetical question to your favorite ex-premie, Jim.

Master of this age: Kinda implies like Christ, Buddha, Ram, Krishna and all the others, doesn't it? Implies that Maharaji is like them and might have god-like powers and other kewl stuff. Certainly, implies the concept of being the One like there is only one alive at anytime.

Knowledge of all Knowledges: Pretty much confirms that Maharaji is extra special.

So, what's the deal? You are pretty much saying that Maharaji is Christ-like, God-like. Now, I'm not sure, but isn't Maharaji only claiming to be the Master and no longer claims that he is god? Seems like you might not be in lock step with the way that Elan Vital and the Master wishes to portray Maharaji. And I would assume that EV might wish that you wouldn't speak in such glowing terms as it undermines all their efforts to make Maharaji more presentable.

Finally, I think that the presentation by yourself that Maharaji is Christ-like or whatever is an example of spiritual elitism that is quite obnoxious. I believe in the old days the word from on high was to have premies tell everyone about Maharaji so that no one would miss the opportunity to be saved. God, it was disgusting out there on the streets lording that crap over people.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 17:06:14 (EST)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Better than living in a shithouse built by an angry beaver
Message:
Shp, forgive me if I don't respond to your other work today. I can't get past reading it. I do
believe that sarcasm is often appropriate when talking to slippery hardcore premies.

>You are forgiven.

Maharaji really is the Master of this age and has come to reveal the Knowledge of all
Knowledges

So what do we have here? I'm assuming that the above is your belief even though you posed
it as a hypothetical question to your favorite ex-premie, Jim.

Master of this age: Kinda implies like Christ, Buddha, Ram, Krishna and all the others,
doesn't it? Implies that Maharaji is like them and might have god-like powers and other kewl
stuff. Certainly, implies the concept of being the One like there is only one alive at anytime.

Knowledge of all Knowledges: Pretty much confirms that Maharaji is extra special.

So, what's the deal? You are pretty much saying that Maharaji is Christ-like, God-like. Now,
I'm not sure, but isn't Maharaji only claiming to be the Master and no longer claims that he is
god? Seems like you might not be in lock step with the way that Elan Vital and the Master
wishes to portray Maharaji. And I would assume that EV might wish that you wouldn't speak
in such glowing terms as it undermines all their efforts to make Maharaji more presentable.

>You are right. Tell you what, I'll tone it down and you can purge your house of drek and we can all be on the same page....that is, unless you want to play both ends against the middle as you have been all this time. To which I can only say, to each his own.

Finally, I think that the presentation by yourself that Maharaji is Christ-like or whatever is an
example of spiritual elitism that is quite obnoxious. I believe in the old days the word from on
high was to have premies tell everyone about Maharaji so that no one would miss the
opportunity to be saved. God, it was disgusting out there on the streets lording that crap over
people.

>You miss the pointy point, Roger. The Christ or higher unconditional love is in everyone. Somebody comes along like a torch who is 'lit' and helps to awaken the light and ignite it in the rest of us. Such a person is not better, but rather an elder brother who went before you or me and bothered to share it with as many people as possible. That is in a perfect world how I believe it was meant to happen.
I am not into that obnoxious holier-than-thou thing any more than you are, but I am open to being coached about a subject by someone who knows more about it than I do, and not have any ego problems with it, as it seems you might have a touch of.

I bid you a good evening and a truly enlightening one.

Shp

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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 16:14:57 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Re: Better than living in a shithouse built by an angry beaver
Message:
Sheesh, I tried to stay out of this, but your little 'Christ' lecture was more than I could take. 'Christ' is English for 'Kristos' which is Greek for 'Mashiah' which is Hebrew for 'annointed one,' NOT 'higher unconditional love.' You are so gnostic, and I mean that in the bad sense (gnostic as spiritual elitist). Now I will wait for the 'you have so much book knowledge but know nothing about true spiritual blah blah blah' lecture.
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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 16:54:16 (EST)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Hey Mickey you're so blind, you're so blind you blow my mind...
Message:
Mickey,

Gee to your sheesh, I wonder what the anointing you so glibly refer to represents and acknowledges about the anointee? Could it be that the anointee is the bringer, the living example, of a higher 'agape' (unconditional) love for humanity to learn about and live by? Hmmmm.'

Interesting how you 'hold back' from posting on secular issues, being above it all, but when Jesus gets mentioned, you come riding in on your white horse, the expert. I don't buy your exclusive rights to having the last word about Jesus or anything else except maybe historical fact and timelines which you may have studied. As for understanding, you have no edge on me or anyone else for that matter, premie or ex. That is the game that religion has been playing on us poor stupid ordinary folks for milleneums and it's OVER! I still love ya!

And Jesus' mailbox didn't have 'Jesus Christ, Carpentry and Home Repairs' on it either. If he had even had one, it probably said 'Jesus ben (son of) Joseph, Carpentry and Home Repairs'. You really want to mess around on this level? I thought you were above the literal meanings of things and more into the spiritual side. I was wrong. You are a frocked Jim Heller on this post. Jim Heller with God on your side because of your clerical connection....now that rates a double- 'sheesh'!

(Note: I think 'sheesh' is the way religious folks say shit, kind of like 'cheese and crackers!' means 'Jesus Christ!' or 'Jeez' means 'Jesus'. You can sanitze your expressions all you want, but I do believe that the Lord looks upon the heart and not just what comes out of your mouth. so go ahead, Mickey, say what you really mean....I am full of sheesh, right?)
Shp

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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 17:10:39 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Re: Hey Mickey you're so fine, you're so fine you blow my mind...
Message:
Annointed one meant that oil had been poured on the person's head and that they were chosen to perform a task. The prophet Samuel poured oil on the head of Saul to show that he was king. He did the same with David. The prophet Isaiah called Cyrus, the emperor of Persia 'the annointed one' because he allowed the people of Israel to return to Jerusalem and rebuild the Temple. 'Annointed one' historically had nothing to do with 'agape.'
I don't know anything about Jesus' mailbox, nor do I care.
God may not be on my side whether I am ordained or not, but I do have some knowledge on certain subjects and I do not like to read posts full of mis-information. You are a gnostic who bandies about terms with out taking responsibility for these terms.
Here endeth the lesson.
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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 17:22:28 (EST)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Reply to Mickey
Message:
'Annointed one' historically had nothing to do with 'agape.' -Fr. Mickey
Right. Unitl Jesus showed up.
The temple Jesus would rebuild in three days was the real temple, not of brick and stone but of flesh and blood and the lesson he brought was not about Jerusalem the city, but Jerusalem inside, and the sacrifice would not be a bull or dove, but a living sacrifice of a life of selfless service. I take full responsibility for my words and do not bandy about Jesus. It is reckless of you to make such accusations from behind your 'Father' handle which I do not buy. He said call no man father, yet you allow yourself to be done so, in direct contradiction to Jesus' own teaching. You are a disciple of a church organization, not Jesus, when you accuse me.
Shp
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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 18:21:08 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Re: Reply to Mickey
Message:
SHP said 'He said call no man father, yet you allow yourself to be done so, in direct contradiction to Jesus' own teaching.'
I suppose your children call you 'Sandy.' My accusation is based upon reading your posts for most of the time you have been posting here. You have paraphrased and misquoted scriptures many times and use these misquotes to bolster your arguments. I call you on it and I become some wicked intellectual who doesn't love Jesus (I am using your method here), I am sorry that I said anything becasuse your are simply too obtuse. I will not longer discuss things with you, I will no longer call you on your mistakes, and I will no longer read your self-righteous posts. Good-bye SHP
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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 12:19:36 (EST)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: You are commanded to forgive 77 times a day if need be
Message:
And so I beg your indulgence, Mickey.

There are three kinds of people:

1) ones who read books
2) ones who write books
3) ones who live lives that books are written about by 2) and read by 1),

Naturally, there are overlaps in this generalization, but I think and hope you get my drift. When you demand chapter and verse when I refer to something historical about J (I really don't want to talk religion much and thus offend the secular masses or exers, sincerely...this post is just for you), I feel that you are keeping yourself and me in the place of 1) and 2) type of person, with no genuine connection to the same spirit that J and his apostles and all the other biblical characters had, those type 3) folks. I don't want to be sitting in the bleachers of life and be reading and hearing about the great divine experiences and adventures somebody else had, and arguing with you or anyone else over which paragraph it's recorded in. I believe that God is still active in our lives and working with willing people right now. That's why I get upset when you demand chapter and verse all the time. Sure,I could look it up, and maybe I should just to be able to relate to you. But as the story goes, even Satan did not demand that sort of concordance reference of Jesus in the wildreness. Just J getting the point across got the job done, no need according to the story, of his having to be an expert on chapter and verse, as long as the spirit of truth was allowed to blow through. Comments?
Shp

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 13:29:11 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Even I know that's 70 times 7!
Message:
dear Sandy -
I'm butting in on your discussion with Mickey here. I know Mickey reasonably well, and he is a nice guy. You said some pretty negative things about him in your posts above, and I honestly feel that what he said shouldn't have provoked them.

I have observed that Mickey gets peeved when people misquote or paraphrase Christian scripture for their own purposes. This happened all the time in DLM/EV, and it happens all the time on televangelist's shows on TV, and also elsewhere in the world. In fact it's happened all through history, with some horrible results. (For a small example: I worked with a guy who was a born-again Christian who took the King James version of the Bible literally. This person was also very conservative politically, and he used to 'bend' things in the New Testament so he could say that Jesus would have supported capital punishment!)

As far as I can tell, Mickey doesn't have a problem with people talking about how they feel about Jesus, or about their opinions about Jesus, or so forth. I also think he believes that God is still active in our lives and working with willing people right now. (Mickey, you can correct me if I'm wrong on any of this.) I don't see how talking about any of this necessarily requires that people put words in Jesus' mouth, and say that he said things that he didn't actually say. The historical record should be enough, IMHO.

Anyway, just my opinion,
Katie

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 16:50:12 (EST)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Katie, you are so rigtht!
Message:
You are so right about the 70 times 7! That would make it 490, at least 77 times plus 413 more.
What makes you think that Mickey has a clsoer connection to Jesus than I do or you do or someone else does and he knows what things really mean in Christian scripture. Nothing personal against him, I just feel that the clergy thinks they know more about the books and all because if they didn't, who'd need them. The days of the church on the hill and the all the serfs living lower down on the hill, working the hill, bringing forth fruits from the hill, climbing the hill to feed the God experts in the church on the hill - thosee days are over. I think Mickey has a good heart from what I gather of him here, and I respect his right to follow his own path. I have been a cleric and I found it very limiting.

And as for the Bible quotes, as in all other aspects of life, the letter killeth but the spirit giveth life.

Shp
Shp

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 17:55:00 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Re: Katie, you are so rigtht!
Message:
Dear Sandy -
I never said Mickey had a closer connection to Jesus than anyone else, and HE has never said so either. What I am saying is that he knows more about early Christian scripture than anyone of the people I know. If one really studies a subject in depth, as Mickey has, then one tends to get irritated when people mis-represent that subject, or say incorrect things about it. (I know I feel this way about my chosen area of study.)

I have never seen Mickey get on anyone's case for expressing their feelings about Jesus, Christianity, or so forth. It seems to me that what really gets on his nerves is people's 'interpretations' (or mis-interpretations) of Jesus' actual words, IF they do not qualify these statements as their own interpretations. (In other words, when people say 'Jesus said...' or 'It says in the Bible...', without also saying 'I think that Jesus meant...' I don't think this is so bad, to tell you the truth.

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 12:20:57 (EST)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Katie, you are so rigtht!
Message:
Katie,

What I am saying to you and Mickey is that I don't think for a minute one has to study the scriptures or be a scholar in any sense of the word to have a totally complete grasp of what Jesus represented or meant when he was here. This is exemplified in the story of the Good Samaritan. The guy probably couldn't even read, let alone be a religious scholar. But he knew what to do when he saw the injured person lying on the ground...the same person who was passed over by ohters including a clergyman.
So that's it on this subject from me. How much time one logs over the books doesn't make one more aware or adept at the essence and meanings, as I see it. We aren't talking about auto mechanics here, that might be a different story.
Shp

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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 19:12:17 (EST)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Re: Reply to Mickey
Message:
Jesus did not mean parents, he meant religious leaders and I think you know that. Funny thing, when clerics put forth interpretations, they are published and sold and debated over wine and coffee into the night by clerical students. But when an 'outsider' does the same thing, it's bullshit. Gotta protect your corner of the market I guess. Too bad. We used to get on half decently. Oh well.
Shp
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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 16:13:43 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Re: Better than living in a shithouse built by an angry beaver
Message:
Sheesh, I tried to stay out of this, but your little 'Christ' lecture was more than I could take. 'Christ' is English for 'Kristos' which is Greek for 'Mashiah' which is Hebrew for 'annointed one,' NOT 'higher unconditional love.' You are so gnostic, and I mean that in the bad sense. Now I will wait for the 'you have so much book knowledge but know nothing about true spiritual blah blah blah' lecture.
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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 16:19:49 (EST)
From: Mickey the computer inept
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: There seems to be an echo here.....Sorry nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 05:09:42 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Desperate plea to Shp - Go! Leave this place.
Message:
You miss the pointy point, Roger. The Christ or higher unconditional love is in everyone. Somebody comes along like a torch who is 'lit' and helps to awaken the light and ignite it in the rest of us. Such a person is not better, but rather an elder brother who went before you or me and bothered to share it with as many people as possible. That is in a perfect world how I believe it was meant to happen.
I am not into that obnoxious holier-than-thou thing any more than you are, but I am open to being coached about a subject by someone who knows more about it than I do, and not have any ego problems with it, as it seems you might have a touch of.

There you go, Shp. Right into the trap. No, of course you don't have any spiritual ego because you are on the path of truth. Not just any truth, but THE Truth as shown by the Living Master of Our Time.

Jeezus, Shp! Do you ever read what you write? Do you ever think about what you are writing or are you just being a parrot trying to sound like a wiseman?

Shp, you should really leave this Forum and stop thinking about us and what we say. If you ever become battle weary and begin to break I fear it would be a horrible thing for you. I feel that you need Maharaji's Knowledge and all the trappings that go with it. In fact, even the additional little spiritual trappings that you have added on your very own. Please, please leave this place. Live in your fantasy and don't look back. Go, go now. Run, run from this place.

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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 13:24:45 (EST)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Reply to Roger
Message:
Roger,

Thanks for the advice, but I would be inclined not to accept same from someone who owns and furnishes a House of Drek, dummys up photos and character assassinates people for thier affiliations, and generally is bigoted against premies or any group. I am not bigoted against you or any ex-premies just because you are ex-premies. Unfortunately you cannot say the same about yourself and premies. Nothing personal. We all misspeak from time to time, but when a premie does it, you take the Hubble telescope and look at it through the big end and magnify it to huge proportions.

I never said I believe that the only way to enlightenment was by going to Maharaji or receiving Knowledge, but somehow you and yours have bubbled that rumor up and are running it like its true.
Sorry, you got the wrong premie. That is just an example of the tabloid yellow journalism-like posting one can encounter here if one is a premie and attempting to converse with certain exers.

I will abide by the rules of this site and come and go as I please as long as I am allowed to by your administrator.

Shp

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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 00:41:59 (EST)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Where YOU BREATHE is a shithouse Shp...NOT the forum!!(nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 14:58:36 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Better to reign in hell than serve in Maharaji's heaven (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 14:09:16 (EST)
From: Cynthia G.
Email: cynthia@madriver.com
To: Shp
Subject: Get off the Soap Box Shp!!! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 12:40:58 (EST)
From: RT
Email: omm
To: all esp. premies.
Subject: .from Me and Cult Observer web site
Message:
Dear Premies, You can still feel good and content without Maharaji and the warped belief system which comes by associating with devotees.

I left May 10th 1998, cold turkey. It took 4 months of reading here to un-due the dam-age.

Try it for a year. You can always 'go back.' I went to an event a year later, tho, and it was so 'weird' that I never returned; I remember having trouble sleeping that nite...such a confused belief system.

Sure I feel the Holy Name. But it hasn't stopped me from THINKING.

So wake UP Premies...leave Him and see. Experiment: it's your life, not His.

Sincerly

RT.

A site to seek: 222.csj.org

Captive Hearts, Captive Minds Freedom and Recovery from Cults and Abusive Relationships

Written by Madeleine Tobias, a former member of a new age cult and a psychotherapist, and Janja Lalich, a former member of a political cult and an author/editor, this book is an informative and useful introduction to the cult phenomenon.

Captive Hearts, Captive Minds provides hands-on help for former members, their families, and professionals. It includes personal stories of healing and recovery, an analysis of cult leaders, an extensive list of resources, and sections on family issues.

http://www.csj.org/infoserv_groups/grp_eastern/elanvital/grpindex_elanvital.htm

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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 22:05:06 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: RT
Subject: Re: .from Me and Cult Observer web site
Message:
Dear RT,
Hi, it sounds like you are well. Nice to see you here. ;) I hope life is being good to you and yours.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 01:18:34 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: RT
Subject: Re: .from Me and Cult Observer web site
Message:
Hey RT -
We miss you here, but can also understand why you're not around. Glad all is well :).

Love,
Katie

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Date: Wed, Nov 10, 1999 at 23:24:23 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Sanford Pass says it all
Message:
Here's a repost of Shp's reply to me below. Any of you who had the bemusing experience of watching this new age phony puff up with self-righteousness a few months ago will gag on this. There's nothing for me to add. He says it all.

Hey Jim,

I just caught this latest bile from you. Why don't you go after the parents of the little ones who found out what was going on, and have me for dessert. In reality, they are the main course for your attack, since they are the legal and moral guardians of their young. I was just passing by, didn't have to do shit, but was moved to act as I was moved to and able. The fact that I got no response from Maharaji didn't surprise either of us, did it? And the letter that I got from EV president Linda Gross I passed on to Anth to use on behalf of Susan and Abi and whoever else he is trying to help.

Let's face it Jim, you won't be happy or approving of me until my super costume has a little 'j' on it as a member of your attack team counterpart of the Legion of Ex-super heroes. Until then, I really don't expect us to get along on any level.

So while I am digesting and purging the putrid vibes of your post, why don't you contact the PARENTS and ream them a new asshole? I was just passing by, saw something that looked like a really gross injustice, got some reply from EV, passed it to Anth, and and going on my way. I think mistakes were made all around this matter and many people share in the legal and moral responsibility. I was not there and I don't know who is directly responsible for what. I was just lending support to the wave of indignation that was coming from this site, Cornwall, England, and some other places Anth told me about. What the hell do you want from me?

And you know what else? Even if Maharaji did respond to this matter and made effort to comfort the victims and somehow communicate to them, you would not be satisfied. Even if the kids involved were satisfied that Maharaji had reached out to them and they felt better for it, you'd still be on the warpath. And many of the gripes that you have expressed about Maharaji I think are just plain stupid.
So stew in your own juices, man. I am not sorry that I did not please you. You are good with words.
Maybe someday you will use them to help and not hurt and you will find your peace.

I don't cower before anyone, but I do respect Maharaji more than you.

Shp

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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 11:20:21 (EST)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Jim and SHP
Subject: SHP
Message:
I think Sandy has done a very brave thing as a premie to confront Rawat about this, or at least to attempt to. I think he sincerely does care, as he says. This is the first I heard about the Linda Gross reply. Could you forward it to me or ask Anth too? Is there anything of substance in it?

I cannot fathom how anyone can be a premie anymore. That would be true even if Jagdeo had never existed. It may be unpopular but I have to give Sandy credit because I think most premies would be more concerned about getting exiled to the back row of the next program for the letter he wrote than they would be about what justice has been done regarding Jagdeo. I think Sandy has done some very brave things. Of course I do not get how he can still be a premie, but that does not stop me from recognizing that he cares.

I hope SHP that my mother is not included in the statement you made. I never told her about this until very recently. I was afraid I would not be allowed to go to satsang anymore if I told her. Also as you recall what happened to me was extremely minor compared with what happened to Abi.

I think we need to tread lightly on the blame heaped on Abi's parents on this one. Jagdeo had a great deal of trust placed in him and premies in those years really saw Mahatmas as very special beings. I am sure that many premies noticed Jagdeo was spending a lot of time alone with Abi. I doubt any of them suspected what was happening. I am sure they percieved her as lucky and special, and sort of especially spiritual, that he saught out her company. This is what happened to the other victim I am aware of, people thought she was very lucky to be with Jagdeo. This abuse occured right under the noses of many ashram premies who thought she was lucky that Jagdeo liked her so much. He had a great deal of trust put in him.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 18:45:03 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: I agree with Susan
Message:
Dear Susan -
Just to let you know that I agree with what you've said above. I DO think that Sandy was brave to send that letter. I am sure he is now considered a 'bongo' premie (especially since he posts on here under his own name), and will probably be exiled to the last row or whatever. Also, I appreciate his admission (further down in this thread) that Maharaji DOES have some responsibility to Jagdeo's victims. Personally, I think it's reprehensible that Jagdeo might have been sent to Southeast Asia or wherever. Obviously he could fufill his pedophilic urges there without anyone knowing about it (as many people do), but I still think it's awful.

As far as your mom and Abi's parents go - from what I have heard from you, your mom would have acted responsibly if confronted with the facts in this case. I can understand why you didn't tell her, but I don't think she should face any accusations or anything. I also know that Abi cares for her parents very much, and that she doesn't wish them to be castigated either. I believe that they were in the same situation that many parents are regarding child abuse - they let their children be with people they trusted. In most case, this is with a family member, but I can see how they would have trusted Jagdeo also, no matter how weird it seems in retrospect. You can listen to Dr. Laura Schlessinger any day of the week and people are always calling her regarding letting their children have unsupervised visits with their grandparents - even when one of the grandparents is a KNOWN child molester. This seems absolutely crazy to me, but I have never been in that situation.

Susan, it's also hard for me to believe that anyone could continue being a premie after hearing these accusations and facts. However, I gather from Sandy's posts that he has gotten some benefit from the knowledge meditation, and that he attributes that to Maharaji. (He's also apparently very conversant with the concept of 'lila'.) I have always said that I don't post on here to try and convert anyone, and I'm not going to try and convert Sandy either. However, if you are reading this, Sandy, I urge you to think some about the concept of 'denial'.

Love to you, Susan - you're the greatest!
Katie

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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 19:04:49 (EST)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Reply to Katie
Message:
Dear Katie,

I am not into the one way a la jesus freak thing. It just sounds that way when words get used alot.
I wish we were past all the talk about god and just lived it and were totally merged into the experience. we all have noses but we don't talk about them all day...I wsih for a day when it's that way with us people and God, and words no longer get in the way. I wish we could all meet someday and connect on a level way above all this trouble and strife. God, this hurts and feels good at the same time. I think Mike Myers calls it faklempt. Talk among yourselves.
Shp

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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 19:22:18 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: mishkat@gateway.net
To: Shp
Subject: Re: Reply to Katie
Message:
Hi Sandy -
Thanks for saying that you're not into the 'one way' thing - I appreciate that very much, and I'm sure that other people on here do too.

As far as meeting in person - I have met several people who post on this site in person (JW, Rick, Mickey the P, VP, Robyn, Helen, Gail, Anne, and Bobby, to mention a few), and it has been really great. As you said, it's definitely connection on a different level. I hope to meet many of the other people who post here, too.

Anyway, Brian and I are moving to Virginia next week (the southwestern part of the state, but only 4 hours from DC), and since you're an East Coast person, maybe we will get to meet YOU some time too.

Take care, Sandy -
Katie

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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 20:32:14 (EST)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Reply to Katie
Message:
Very beautiful part of the country, as I recall...west of Roanoke? I hitched through there many years ago and had a great time. Mellow climate, people , and weather. Nice palce to live. Good for you.
I go to DC occasionally for work. So keep in touch.
Shp
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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 20:46:37 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: mishkat@gateway.net
To: Shp
Subject: Re: Reply to Katie
Message:
Hi Sandy -
You're right - southwest of Roanoke. A really nice place to live, plus the whole town is wired for the Net now. Also, IMHO, the weather on the whole east coast is more mellow than that in the Midwest. I think the ocean makes the east coast much more temperate.

I know several exes that live in or near DC, so keep me posted. I'm almost positive that I'll keep this same e-mail address for the next 6 months at least.

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 16:31:06 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: That's ridiculous, Susan
Message:
I think Sandy has done a very brave thing as a premie to confront Rawat about this, or at least to attempt to. I think he sincerely does care, as he says.

Susan,

I think you're letting your 'niceness' show a bit. I mean, let's be honest here. You say Shp's initial inquiry to the cult leader was 'very brave'? Sorry, I think you're heaping on the praise a little thick.

Fact: Shp made some initial, tentative inquiry of his cult leader and the cult's (now former) organizational head. He really did a big victory parade after that one... you know, Shp and the 'little, little ones'. Well, okay, I'm still picking up the odd piece of graffitti.

Fact: Shp himself admitted that he never expected Maharaji to answer him. Here's how he put it--

The fact that I got no response from Maharaji didn't surprise either of us, did it?

So his inquiry was just a show, wasn't it? Too bad he telss us this AFTER the parade.

Fact: Shp then decides the job's done, all of his moral judgement's exhausted and Maharaji's been cleared by virtue of his own silence and Shp's cult-fed imagination.

If you cut and pasted Shp's grandiose 'I'm going to get to the bottom of this' bullshit and matched it up with his current tripe it wouldn't fit. Something gave out. And what was that? Shp's resolve. After his initial show he realized that he'd extended himself far past his cult paramaters by even intimating that Maharaji might have to answer for something. So what'd he do? He retreated.

The fact is, Susan, Shp is a COWARD in the face of Maharaji. To call him 'very brave' is perverse.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 11:56:18 (EST)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Re: SUSAN
Message:
Susan,

I have nothing to say specifically about your parents, since I know nothing about them. And I understand the mechanics of your not telling your Mom anything at the time due to the stresses and strains of the premie life we all bought into. It must have been especially hard to deal being a kid...I know it was hard to deal with even as an adult. I received Knowledge in 1978 and life had its crazy stuff then too, so I am not oblivious to the bullshit going on around and in the premie communities, from the transient intercontinental con-artists who ripped people off just to follow Maharaji around the world to the mahatmas who didn't feel like mahatmas (great souls), or even very good instructors, to me.

What I was referring to was how Abi's dad dealt with it once he found out. I read that he went to Charananand, raised hell once, and that was it, he went no further, the story goes. In my haste to post I was not specific and I am sorry for that. Now I am specific about it. I understand how all were snowed by Jag due to his relationship to Maharaji, who we all accepted as a very high and holy being, whoever he was exactly. We all accepted him as a 'good guy', whether the Lord hisself, or a lesser identity. And nobody expects such a 'good guy' to run interference for a pedophile. I got that loud and clear. That was what I was talking about.

Thank you for your support in a very diffi-cult situation.

Shp

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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 04:26:28 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Does this mean that Shp is gonna URL out of here?
Message:
I sure hope so. I'm getting really tired of that sticky sweet religious stuff he keeps spouting.

So, Shp, we should be going after the negligent parents? I guess you're right. After all, they brought these kids into the world. That's always a good place to start.

It's not like these parents put their kids in a place that they thought would be safe. They knew what was going on all the time. They probably got front row seats as a pay off. Heck, it's not like Maharaji and his people had anything to do with this. And Maharaji probably didn't know about what was going on with Jagdeo. No, those people who supposedly told Maharaji about Jagdeo were lying. And so Jagdeo disappears into the Pacific or Thailand, of all places, for a few years. Exiling Jagdeo to the Third World would certainly help keep this little problem out of the press and out of the courts. Who cares about the Third World anyway?

And while we're at it, why don't we blame the kids themselves. We need to find someone to blame other than Maharaji whom we respect above all no matter what he does.

Shp, you're nothing butt doggie pooh. You came on so strong as to wanting to get to the bottom of this ugly affair and now you want to give Maharaji carte blanche and lay the blame on the parents. No, it really sounds like Maharaji could have and should have stopped it when he first heard about it, but for some reason he didn't and more children got the worst experience of their lives.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 10:06:55 (EST)
From: who knows
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: one word about Shp
Message:
whoever shp is or what he stands for, it is OBVIOUS to me tha he does care about this issue and that he is SINCERE. Denying this is 100% dishonest.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 16:39:52 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: who knows
Subject: You guys completely miss the point
Message:
Look, fellas, hate to be rude but you're missing the point here. Everyone cares about this issue. That's easy. I mean, who wouldn't think it was reprehensible for Jagdeo to grope, paw and worse young, innocent kids? No one.

The issue, though, is how much does Shp care? Enough to actually follow through and demand an answer from the very guy who commissioned, endorsed, sponsored and ultiamtely protected the abuser? Not if that guy's his cult leader, apparently.

Does Shp deserve credit for being a human being with a typical human reaction to the ugly reports about Jagdeo? Maybe a little credit, I guess, might be in order if only because there are actually some cult members -- like Mil, for instance -- who have reacted like pigs to the allegation. But, given Shp's pompous horn blowing ....

remember when Shp was bragging about how he'd taken his 'crusade' against child abuse to the streets, so to speak, in his .. oh, I'll call it EXTREMELY brave letter to some university that supported a web server or something that had a few porn sites on it? Sorry if I didn't get the details just right. Yes, it was an amazing story alright. An amazing testament to human courage and all that.

Get me a bucket.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 10:47:12 (EST)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: who knows
Subject: Re: a word about who knows
Message:
whoever 'who knows' is or what he or she stands for, it is OBVIOUS to me that he or she does see me clearly about this issue and that he or she is SINCERE. Denying this is 100% dishonest.

who knows, thanks are not exactly what is in order, although it is always gratifying to have support and to be perceived in the light of truth and not through some opinionated filter so thick that reality can't shine through. I don't know for sure if you are an ex-premie or a premie, for I do not follow all the posts regularly. But I do appreciate the energy and time you took to state your feelings in this thread, not just for my own sake, but to keep the vibe here on the near side of the lynch mob it usually operates at. Hopefully, others will catch on and be straighter because of you and your conscientious posting. Of course, there wil be the cynics and the detractors. You are now a target too, but it seems that you can handle it. I know you did not speak up just to defend me, but rather for a principle. I respect that. More objective, clear-vision communication like yours will certainly have a positive effect on the big picture. I look forward to more of the same coming from more people...disagreeing but having respect and patience with those we disagree with, or just cutting them loose, but not harrassing or doing any sort of verbal or mental violence for the sake of cyber theatre or just malice.
I hope more folks on both sides of the issues follow your objective and fair way.

Shp

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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 09:57:11 (EST)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Reply to Roger
Message:
(My words are carroted)

So, Shp, we should be going after the negligent parents? I guess you're right. After all, they
brought these kids into the world. That's always a good place to start.

>Don't be an asshole Roger. Abi's dad found out and went to Charananand, so the story posted here goes. And then what happened??? That's what I was talking about. Once the parents knew....that's what I was talking about. If I was the idiot you portray me to be, it would be easy to do away with me.
But I am not an idiot, especially one uncaring of others.

It's not like these parents put their kids in a place that they thought would be safe. They knew
what was going on all the time. They probably got front row seats as a pay off. Heck, it's not
like Maharaji and his people had anything to do with this. And Maharaji probably didn't know
about what was going on with Jagdeo. No, those people who supposedly told Maharaji about
Jagdeo were lying.

>When are you going to learn that sarcasm is not a positive way to a solution to a problem? Sure it's colorful and witty and cutting and amuses your friends, but it doesn't make a dent in the reality of the matter.

And so Jagdeo disappears into the Pacific or Thailand, of all places, for a few years. Exiling Jagdeo to the Third World would certainly help keep this little problem out of the press and out of the courts. Who cares about the Third World anyway?

>In my cosmology, there is one world and all the children are equally precious.

And while we're at it, why don't we blame the kids themselves. We need to find someone to
blame other than Maharaji whom we respect above all no matter what he does.

>Once again, your sarcasm pours salt into the wound everyone involved feels from this. I think it's a terrible thing to allow a known child molestor loose into any world.

Shp, you're nothing butt doggie pooh. You came on so strong as to wanting to get to the bottom of this ugly affair and now you want to give Maharaji carte blanche and lay the blame on the parents. No, it really sounds like Maharaji could have and should have stopped it when he first heard about it, but for some reason he didn't and more children got the worst experience of their lives.

>First of all, I never said I was completely done checking this matter out. I do believe that the parents, once aware that their kids had been hurt, were responsible to act decisively to protect and defend their own young and were morally obliged to spare others the same pain. This did not happen.

>Let me assure you of this: If Jagdeo had done his thing to me or mine or anyone who was a friend of mine, I would not have settled for one of Charananand's big smiles and telling me everything is perfect, or getting stonewalled by instructors who told me the messages were passed, and then let it drop. I would have raised holy hell to get to the bottom of it and depending on the results (and be sure that I had done my best to get Jag off the streets), would leave or stay with Maharaji. Now it is years later and I have come across this mess in other's lives that for the grace of God could have been me or mine. I feel for the victims and I think they know it. I am very removed from the action and I wonder why the parents and those close to the victims have not created some sort of alliance and gone forth with this already. You accuse me....well, here it is right back at you. Where are the parents now? The close friends? The extended families? The communiites these folks were from? I am only one voice and a distant bystander at that who happens to have been touched and moved to do something.... that's a hell of alot more than I see evidenced here by any family members or relatives or close friends or former community coordinators, etc. I am not your enemy. It just looks that way from where you choose to be coming from, makes good drek for your house. We all have houses of drek in our lives, if someone chose to dig it up. It's easy to do with high profile people, ain't it?

I don't have the answers, never said I did. It's a real mess and more complicated now due to the passage of time. If I see a way to do more, I will. Meantime, I remain impervious to your mindless dissections and hopeful that things will work out for the benefit of those who were hurt.

Shp

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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 10:54:58 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Re: Reply to Roger
Message:
Where are the parents now?

They are premies, toeing the line.

The close friends?

They are premies, toeing the line

The extended families?

The cult discourages close ties with family, or at least, certainly did so when this rape occurred.

The communiites these folks were from?

It was a 'premie' community.

No mystery here, Sandy. Recap: M's closest associate is a serial rapist. M and other higher ups are informed. It is swept under the rug. No justice there. Sandy continues in his belief system that somehow M is above all this and blameless.

End of story

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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 11:41:57 (EST)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: Reply to gerry
Message:
Gerry,

I dug you objective straight information up until the last part where you begin to ass-u-me things about me: 'M's closest associate is a serial rapist. M and other higher ups are informed. It is swept under the rug. No justice there. Sandy continues in his belief system that somehow M is above all this and blameless.'

You don't know if what you said about me is true or not, but it sure is sensational tabloid journalism and gets blood pressures up in the lives of people who don't think objectively. You are smarter than to ass-u-me things about me or anyone, Gerry. It is beneath you to do so and I give you more credit than your post deserves. If it comes out for certain that the way you ran it down is the actual truth of the matter, I'd have a really hard time calling such a person my teacher on any level.

I am in a sort of a conscientiously self-imposed limbo now because of all this... I could be 'toeing the line next to Abi's dad, but I'm not. I could have turned a deaf ear or pretended that all of you here are just flakes and misfits and missed the boat and the point of Maharaji's thing. But I did not do that with regard to the Jagdeo thing. It was just too big a deal to overlook. It's way beyond gold toilets and personal intrigues which don't phase me. I am in the midst of my own personal situation of how to play this shot and I am in the rough with those of you who are furious about a diddly mahatma being allowed to run free and hurt kids.

Matters like child molestation by a known party are usually open and shut, black and white, and are handled with speed and efficiency nowadays. The passage of time and the labyrinthine convolutions of having to deal with a major player in a spiritual group as the perpetrator make it very difficult to get straight answers.

There are alot of things I detest about my country, my town, jobs I have to do, and this matter about Jagdeo and who knew what and when and how much, etc etc. The easy thing to do is to cut and run and point fingers from across the street. The harder thing to do, and more time and energy consuming, is to try to mend the breach and find answers that ring true to all sides. Oh, to have a glimpse at the Akashic record and know what really happened without prejudice and have a clue as to how to resolve it all, that would be great, wouldn't it? But since we don't have access to that most objective of all records, we all must go on the light we have been given and seek more understanding.
Shp

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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 14:04:37 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Re: Reply to gerry
Message:
Sandy,

Am I safe to assume that you no longer believe 'that somehow M is above all this and blameless?'

How much more 'access to objective records ' do you need? Eye witness first hand accounts by VICTIMS aren't good enough for you?

At what point do you concede there is something rotten in premieland and M is not fit to point his own dick in the direction of his (golden) toilet, much less lead others on a 'spiritual path'?

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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 14:54:41 (EST)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: Reply to gerry
Message:
Sandy,

Am I safe to assume that you no longer believe 'that somehow M is above all this and
blameless?'

gerry,

I never thought Maharaji was 'above all this' since he and the mahatmas had a direct line of communication and authority flowed straight from him to them. I did not miss that point for a second, gerry. Jagdeo was under his direct authority and guidance as to where to go and what to do, so I always saw him in the loop somehow. As for 'blameless', I'd prefer to use the term 'responsibility' instead of blame. And I do feel that Maharaji has some responsibility for what Jagdeo did after he became aware of it. As to how much responsibility he had for Jagdeo's actions I cannot determine, but I definitely feel there is something there. It's common sense. Do I think that Maharaji condoned or did not care about what Jagdeo did, definitely not.

I can only imagine the scene: Once aware of the situation, Maharaji reading Jagdeo the riot act and giving him what-for and threatening him and so forth, and I can imagine Jagdeo kissing his feet and promising to be good....and then he'd go out again and act out his weird involuntary diseased fantasies with unsuspecting premie kids under the noses of premie parents, due to his terrible diease that even the fear of and love for his Master could not shake him loose from. And I don't see any difference between Jagdeo molesting some premie kid in Denver or England or some naked South Pacific island kid. It's all sick and needed to be dealt with long long ago in a galaxy far far away called the 70's. But it wasn't and that's making it really hard to sort out with the passage of time.

Yeah gerry, something stinks, but I still am tracking the smell to its source and have not reached it to my satisfaction as yet. When I do, I will let you know. And for whatever reason, I am not into writing off Maharaji at this point. That does not make me good or bad or right or wrong. It's just where I am at. From where you sit you my position may seem weak, but in the world of premies I am most certainly some sort of radical wacko nutcase, as you may know from your own experiences. But aside from premies and ex-premies, in the light of the simple truth, I am just a person looking for my way through this life without doing harm or being an accessory to doing harm to anyone. This is one of the most weird situations I have ever been involved with directly or indirectly. I have been at this impasse for a long time and from my expereince of life, something will give soon probably. I am open to the love showing me the way through this particular valley of the shadow of death. It is for me to remain calm and receptive in the meantime.

Shp
How much more 'access to objective records ' do you need? Eye witness first hand accounts
by VICTIMS aren't good enough for you?

At what point do you concede there is something rotten in premieland and M is not fit to point
his own dick in the direction of his (golden) toilet, much less lead others on a 'spiritual path'?

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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 17:00:13 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: You're a coward, Shp -- plain and simple
Message:
Shp,

If you had any guts you'd allow yourself to think clearly on this and that would be that. Here's how simple it is. Assume that your scenario's right, that Maharaji read Jagdeo the riot act and sent him back out into the field expecting that Jagdeo wouldn't keep molesting kids. Think, you idiot! Think for a change! What the hell do you think that makes Maharaji? What's wrong with you that you can't see that even your attempt to somehow find Maharaji a way out of this leaves him mired in sin. What sin? The sin of reckless disregard for the children of his devotees, the people he'd forced to trust him with their lives.

Tell me, stupid, how the rest of your best-case-wishful-thinking scenario plays out? Where were the checks and safeguards? Wouldn't Maharaji have already known that Jagdeo, by abusing the trust heaped upon him as one of Maharaji's SAINTS for God's sake had completely shown he couldn't be trusted? So tell me, dummy, how exactly does your scenario play out? It doesn't. It's as empty as all your new age nonsense.

But it gets even better! For you, Shp, are talking out of both sides of your mouth on this one. For you're just as inclined to argue, as you did just yesterday, that you believe that Prouty and Osborne were lying when they said they told the Hamster. Remember?

It's obvious that you're just spinning, spinning, spinning, trying to find some refuge for your dumb faith in the face of reality. Brave? I think not.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 18:35:03 (EST)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names really piss me off sometimes
Message:
If you had any guts you'd allow yourself to think clearly on this and that would be that.

>If I didn't have the guts, I wouldn't be responding to you. And as for my clarity of thought, that is questionable since I am trying to dialog with you, so we have to take that into consideration.

Here's how simple it is. Assume that your scenario's right, that Maharaji read Jagdeo the riot act and
sent him back out into the field expecting that Jagdeo wouldn't keep molesting kids. Think,
you idiot! Think for a change! What the hell do you think that makes Maharaji? What's wrong
with you that you can't see that even your attempt to somehow find Maharaji a way out of this
leaves him mired in sin. What sin? The sin of reckless disregard for the children of his
devotees, the people he'd forced to trust him with their lives.

>Kind of like you defending someone and getting him off only to find out later that your suspicions were accurate and he was guilty and went out and hurt somebody else? You mean like that? And don't give me that crap that one thing has nothing to do with the other. It most certainly does. You play god sometimes in your work and turn away from your own intuition to turn a buck. Don't play coy.

Tell me, stupid, how the rest of your best-case-wishful-thinking scenario plays out? Where
were the checks and safeguards? Wouldn't Maharaji have already known that Jagdeo, by
abusing the trust heaped upon him as one of Maharaji's SAINTS for God's sake had
completely shown he couldn't be trusted? So tell me, dummy, how exactly does your
scenario play out? It doesn't. It's as empty as all your new age nonsense.

>You are no fun to brainstorm with at all. Nobody gets any room to think things out except for you.
I never said my scenario was complete or ready for prime-time. I was just trying to understand what happened out loud. Excuuuuse me!

But it gets even better! For you, Shp, are talking out of both sides of your mouth on this one. For you're just as inclined to argue, as you did just yesterday, that you believe that Prouty and Osborne were lying when they said they told the Hamster. Remember?

>I did not argue that point. You are mistaken.

It's obvious that you're just spinning, spinning, spinning, trying to find some refuge for your dumb faith in the face of reality. Brave? I think not.

>Not spinning, more like banging my head against this thing, trying to figure it out, how something so horrendous could happen in the midst of something so hopefully glorious.

I can't see Maharaji not caring about the kids or being into Jagdeo's trip himself or being oblivious to the danger Jagdeo presented to Maharaji's mission which we both know he takes very seriously, whatever the motive. You get me, Jim? I can't figure how this happened with any semblance of down-to-earth common sense. Can you?

If you can, let's put aside insults and diatribe and look at the situation:
1) Whether he's on a mission from God or for his own self-aggrandizement, Maharaji had to know that Jagdeo could fuck up whatever it is bigtime with a pedophile representing him. Do we both agree that Maharaji is smart enough not to shoot himself in the foot whatever his trip is? I mean even if he's just out for the gold shitters and the women like you imply, why would he allow some old fart who likes kids to mess it up while he's still young and going strong?
2) Can we both agree that he himself is not into kids like Jagdeo was and probably tried in his own way which did not work to stop Jagdeo?

I have been looking for peace all my adult life, not a club or group to hang on to. I have left other situations literally in a heartbeat when I felt that it was bogus, and I would do it agian if the spirit moves me. I am not your average premie, and your one-size-fits-all conduct of our dialog is crude and insensitive to our being able to communicate, but I am getting past it for the sake of the dialog, because there is something being said here by both of us. Maybe we can talk about this some more. Maybe we will both learn something.
Shp

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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 06:18:05 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Shades of the old Government Inspector (G.I.)
Message:
Shp, you never learn, do you? Shades of old G.I. putting Jim on trial.

Maharaji blew it big time! If Maharaji really had guts he would have turned the matter over to the police. A second less expensive option would to have defrocked Jagdeo and give him a one way ticket back to India.

Either Maharaji, the Living Perfect Master of Our Time, had no clue what to do, that is assuming he did not ask for the advice of his advisors and attorneys, or Jagdeo was holding a better hand than Maharaji.

The fact remains that Maharaji opted for the solution that would have the least effect on his bottom line - get Jagdeo out of the country. Hmmm, where have we seen this one before? And out of the country Jagdeo went to the Pacific or Thailand, the pedophile paradise.

Also, apparently Jagdeo was still in the West after Maharaji was informed and there was no notification to Community Coordinators and there was no watch put on Jagdeo. I'd call that pretty negligent on the part of Mr. Perfect Master.

The reality is that Maharaji cares more about his opulent lifestyle than the lives of his so-called premies.

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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 13:39:19 (EST)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Reply to Roger
Message:
Shp, you never learn, do you? Shades of old G.I. putting Jim on trial.

>Slow news day, have to dig into the archives for something juicy? As for Jim, it's a legitimate thing I say. He chose a profession where he has to eat his own intuition and perform robotically at times which can put a guilty person back on the street. I don't see a difference. He represents Justice as an officer of the court, but must play games that are not always just. People get hurt as a result.

Maharaji blew it big time! If Maharaji really had guts he would have turned the matter over to
the police. A second less expensive option would to have defrocked Jagdeo and give him a
one way ticket back to India.

>Possible real world scenarios.

Either Maharaji, the Living Perfect Master of Our Time, had no clue what to do, that is
assuming he did not ask for the advice of his advisors and attorneys, or Jagdeo was holding a
better hand than Maharaji.

>Also possible real world scenarios.

The fact remains that Maharaji opted for the solution that would have the least effect on his
bottom line - get Jagdeo out of the country. Hmmm, where have we seen this one before?

>I presume you refer to Fakiranand and the hammering of Pie-man. got it.

And out of the country Jagdeo went to the Pacific or Thailand, the pedophile paradise.

>As I have said previously, all children are precious, regardless where they live on earth, and none should be subjected to abuse of any sort.

Also, apparently Jagdeo was still in the West after Maharaji was informed and there was no
notification to Community Coordinators and there was no watch put on Jagdeo. I'd call that
pretty negligent on the part of Mr. Perfect Master.

>This set of circumstances and very strong documented allegations have been ringing in my head since I first heard it months ago. My conscience is on it and I don't need you to remind me of the implications.

The reality is that Maharaji cares more about his opulent lifestyle than the lives of his
so-called premies.

>You have come to that conclusion. I have not.

Shp

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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 13:47:44 (EST)
From: Cynthia G.
Email: cynthia@madriver.com
To: All
Subject: Child Abuse and Confusion
Message:
Hello Everyone,

It is so important when discussing child sexual abuse to know the dynamics of offender behavior, the damage such abuse does to a child, that child in adulthood, as well as the sensitivity needed in order to help victims to find a way to recover from the abuse. For me, recovery is the most important issue. Parents of adults who were victims as children will often go into denial, premie or not. Some may be helpful, again, it is individual.

Every state has different laws and statutes of limitation. A couple of years ago I called the appropriate people in the state of Conn. to find out if I could sue my father for the abuse he inflicted upon me. I was told that the statute of limitations had expired because I am over 35 years old. In the state of Vermont, the statute of limitations runs for 7 years after a recovered memory, if an adult has suppressed the memory(s) of the criminal act against them.

Yet, each individual victim/survivor of incest or sexual abuse must make their own decision about whether or not to pursue law suits or criminal charges. Unfortunately, the majority of pedophiles, like Jagdeo, are not treatable. That's why laws need to be changed so offenders get longer and tougher sentences when convicted. For m to send him off the continent was inexcusable because pedophiles like what they do to children--they're addicted and they usually don't care what nationality their victims are. Any remorse they may express when confronted is questionable and is probably in their own self-interests. And all children are precious. M did an unexcusable thing by not protecting the children who were abused or could potentially be abused by Jagdeo. Beyond the pale. I don't care how old m was at the time.

The victim always has a choice of going through a healing process through self-help, peer counseling, psychotherapy...whatever works for that person. It is an excruciatingly painful process and takes time, courage and support from those around them, not arguments. It's also important not to categorize the 'extent or type of abuse,' i.e., genital or digital penetration versus fondling. All varieties of sexual abuse are serious and must be not be spoken about in degrees. Any sexual violation of a child or an adult for that matter is equally serious. The legal system does define sexual abuse by degrees, yet in the whole spectrum of a victim's life, abuse is abuse. Pain is pain.

The rage a victim feels over sexual violation is beyond comprehension. It is a violation that feels like soul murder. I felt that rage for years and years and years. Then I finally gave up on personally confronting my abuser, because I knew in my case doing so would only bring ME more pain, because I would be dealing with a psychopath who would deny it. So I gave up and over time have felt a lot better. It's unfair. VERY UNFAIR. I never had a childhood. Yet, if I stayed in that place of rage for any longer I would never have been able to move on in my life. I couldn't live in that anger any longer, I wanted to thrive, rather than just surviving. Regardless of what could be done to my abuser as punishment, as an adult, it was my responsibility to heal myself.

When I read about Jagdeo's sexual abuse of children I was outraged and still am. Yet I really don't expect maharaji to ever respond to this issue unless he's forced to. It is not in his best interests to do so. M was definitely complicit in the crime when he became aware of it and did nothing. That is a crime. Whether it is a legal, on-the-books crime, I don't know. Personally, I would love to see this go public and have m forced to testify. He really pisses me off because I remember him speaking so lovingly of babies and little children and their innocence. He's a low-life liar.

That a mahatma of m comitted these abuses is heinous--he was a trusted adult. Mix in the dynamics of the cult, the cult leader, and the situation becomes so much more complicated. Add in the global lack of awareness about child sexual abuse twenty years ago and those children didn't have a chance. As outraged as I am about this, I was not one bit surprised. Sexual abuse happens frequently in cults, but it happens frequently out in the real world, too. Ultimately, one can never blame anyone but the perpetrator and those complicit in the crime. It wasn't the parents fault because they were premies spaced out on bliss, it wasn't anybody's fault except the offender. Any child or adult survivor of sexual abuse must always be reassured that it is not their fault! This is because an abuser uses fear, threats, and will often come out and tell a child it's their fault.

Whether or not this issue is acknowledged by Maharaji remains to be seen. If the victims involved want to pursue this I encourage them to take every measure available to come to a resolution. But do it for the right reasons. Do it for your own personal mental and emotional health, because I hate to tell you this, but maharaji doesn't give a shit. Look at his own life and family.

The last thing I want to say to the victims is that I support you in whatever action you take about this. I also want all the victims to know that I believe you. I believe that what you have told is the truth and I am so sorry this happened to you, you didn't deserve to be hurt this way.

To jagdeo and maharaji--fuck you!

Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Nov 10, 1999 at 19:19:38 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Happy Belated Birthday Sir Dave
Message:
Dear Dave,
I don't think I've gotten one right this year! Except for Cynthia and that was just by chance! Even though I blew it I really do think you are a wonderful man and hope your birthday was special. Did you see your girls? I hope so.
Love you,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 08:56:20 (EST)
From: Enough
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Re: Happy Belated Birthday Sir Dave
Message:
I have an idea that will help you with this problem of forgetting.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 11:42:38 (EST)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Happy Birthday Sir Dave! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 11:36:37 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Re: Happy Belated Birthday Sir Dave
Message:
Happy belated birthday to the ex-guardian of the cheese!
Take care, man :)
VP
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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 00:39:59 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Re: Happy Belated Birthday Sir Dave
Message:
Dear David -
Happy belated birthday (and many happy returns, of course!) Glad it was a good day.
Love from Katie
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Date: Wed, Nov 10, 1999 at 20:17:47 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Re: Happy Belated Birthday Sir Dave
Message:
Thanks Robyn. It was a memorable birthday. Actually I didn't mind it not being broadcast here on Monday.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 04:13:02 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: You mean to say that Sir Dave was like born? He didn't just happen?
Message:
Happy Birthday, Sir Dave!
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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 12:14:17 (EST)
From: Sir Dave PLC INC
Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Re: You mean to say that Sir Dave was like born? He didn't just happen?
Message:
We would all like to thank the above for their good wishes. All of us; Sir Dave, The Right Reverend John Hammond-Smyth, Thick as a plank, Prof Heinz Baked-Beans (returning soon) and someone else with the initials A.P.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 15:00:55 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Sir Dave PLC INC
Subject: and The Bicycle Repair Man! :) (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Nov 10, 1999 at 13:14:11 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Is this the main thrust?
Message:
Where oh where is it going to be? Well, try and get into the secret underground forum and see if you can figure out what's going on.

What should Elan Vital be afraid of? What surprises lie in store for Maharaji? And Jim, can you lend me some of your epithets, please?

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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 00:33:27 (EST)
From: Blackheart
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: This is good stuff !
Message:
(
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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 07:25:51 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Blackheart
Subject: Do me a favour!
Message:
The anti terrorist squad would very politely take you to one side, give you a cup of tea and tell you that you were letting your imagination run away with you, sir. Perhaps you'd like to pay a visit to your local doctor, sir, maybe you've been working too hard sir, perhaps under a little too much stress? Anyway, that would be the polite reaction you'd get, Mr man of many names.

Look at your post - you've made all the terrorism up in your own head. I was talking about the military strategies of Napoleon and Alexander the Great. That hardly constitutes as terrorism, does it.

And you've failed to cotton on to what I was talking about. Napoleon and Alexander were both heavily outnumbered in both of their most important and noted battles and yet they both employed the same tactic which completely caught the enemy by surprise. Napoleon had actually studied Alexander's techniques carefully.

The same technique was employed on the D Day invasion of Normandy. Any clearer about what I'm talking about?

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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 13:25:11 (EST)
From: Blackheart
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Alexander, Napoleon, D-Day???
Message:
Dave, are you telling me you've declared war on Maharaji?

I can see you now, with all your little lead soldiers spread out on the dinner table. Lines and lines of plumbic premies on one side, beragons raised in defiance, facing off against the small but noble band of exes brandishing subpoenas and ForumIV placards.

Beethoven's Fifth rumbling in the background, you in your jodphurs and pith helmet, monacle gripped firmly under furrowed brow.....'Ha, you devils, now I've got you!!'

Don't worry my lovely, I'm just the decoy!!!

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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 13:46:07 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Blackheart
Subject: Maharaji has declared war on US!
Message:
Maharaji has declared war on the ex-premies. He did that when he called us his enemies. People who talk about him openly and frankly are called his "enemies" by him.

So if the Lord of the Universe is calling us his enemies, we'd better do something about it, hadn't we! Like, we'd better start acting like enemies and developing surreptitious plots and strategies because that's what enemies do, right?

Look, I'm only following agya, direct from the little Lord himself.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 14:00:04 (EST)
From: Blackheart
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: When?
Message:
Must have missed that particular video, can you reference the quote for me?

ps Can I be like a Black Knight on your toy battlefield? That would be so cool!

love youXXX

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Date: Wed, Nov 10, 1999 at 15:08:20 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Forget the Password Forum, check out the Porno site!
Message:
Yeah baby! The Porno site rocks! Thank god I've got DSL and could view the videos. I'll never be the same after watching 'Smell the finger'.

Couldn't get no action from the Thumbnail gallery, though.

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Date: Wed, Nov 10, 1999 at 20:08:01 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Re: Forget the Password Forum, check out the Porno site!
Message:
That porn site is hot stuff isn't it. I think I'll try the 'Golden Showers' in the bath tomorrow. I haven't plucked up the courage to watch 'Never Take An Elaphant From Behind' yet.

You'll notice that the site's made in Britain. Only the best porn from here! Thumbnail gallery takes a while to load but it's well worth the wait...

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Date: Wed, Nov 10, 1999 at 13:34:05 (EST)
From: alias
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Re: Is this the main thrust?
Message:
Nice tune!
Sounds good on the hot sound system.
The door to the racy sight would have been my first
so I protected my internet virginity and declined.
I bet Mickey the P. went there!

The forum doesnt seem to be available yet.
Even though I typed in the password Topogigo.

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Date: Wed, Nov 10, 1999 at 22:45:13 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgbach@sinfo.net
To: alias
Subject: Re: Is this the main thrust?
Message:
Well, you're right; I did go in there and I was shocked! Exactly what WAS that person doing with that donkey? And while I was looking my bishop walked in the door. 'Well, actually, I used to be in this cult and I was checking out this site a friend put up...' Man, I gots some 'splainin' to do!
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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 23:26:41 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Howdy, Mickey!
Message:
Mickey, I cannot believe that a nice guy like you would look at those porn sites (snicker - I've SEEN those old pictures of you!). Anyway, glad to see you here. I assume the above is your new e-mail address, oh padre?

Say hi to Mona and Anne and Tigrecita!
Love,
Katie

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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 22:19:23 (EST)
From: Alias
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Re: Is this the main thrust?
Message:
Your a wild man Padre!
Hope you will visit the X forum with some regularity.
I myself have been swamped with work but it will be my
main posting forum. As you can see I do read my enlightened
freinds here also.
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Date: Wed, Nov 10, 1999 at 11:13:59 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Uh oh... I've run out of epithets
Message:
In a post below I resorted to calling Mili an 'idiotic idiot'. I don't know what to do. I'm running out of words for these feather-brains. Perhaps we need a bit of a word bank or something. Maybe that's what support's all about, eh? I give you words, you give me words...
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Date: Wed, Nov 10, 1999 at 15:18:47 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, you know what to do - Just Do It!
Message:
You need to meditate. Meditation will change your headspace and you will come up with the epithets that you need. Unfortunately, they will all be prefaced with that and followed with a you know. Real deep meditation where you see Maharaji in the Light will allow you to say epithets in numerous foreign languages.

There is no end to the miracles of the Living Master's gift to us. It is only up to us to make use of this wonderous tool.

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Date: Wed, Nov 10, 1999 at 22:40:49 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Take a breather Rog! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Nov 10, 1999 at 08:57:21 (EST)
From: Cynthia G.
Email: cynthia@madriver.com
To: All
Subject: Mili Gives Satsang--See.....
Message:
'Revisionist Post Revised' thread, post dated 11/10/99 at 7:22 by mili.

Hello Everyone!

I just happened to be browsing messages and noticed a response to me in the above thread. Gee, Mili seems very defensive of his CRT Guru. He wants to goad me into feeling guilty about the things I said about Maharaji. Sorry to report this to everyone, but I am feeling very happy, content. I'm living a simple life and feel very guilt free about m for the first time in, well, ever since I ever heard of him.

Mili thinks I'm unhappy about leaving m and couldn't be further from the truth. He said that the connection to m is through knowledge, videos, satellites and email! How lucky premies are these days that they can just all afford to buy computers so they can email m directly. I've never heard of him emailing anyone back, but, he doesn't respond to letters either.

Thanks for the try, Mili, I'll take all your satsang into account. By the way, aren't you supposed to NOT be talking about your master? Isn't that what HIS explicit wishes are? I don't have to obey him anymore, you see, I'm very content being an ex, former, whatever label you'd like to place on me.

Sugar coat Guru Maharaj Ji's world all you want. You don't know what you're talking about, I do. By the way, everyone, if Mili thinks that practicing meditation is a connection to M, doesn't that imply he believes m is the lord? One would follow the other, correct?

It's my birthday! Hitting 50 and all the wiser.

Love, Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Nov 10, 1999 at 19:24:07 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Cynthia G.
Subject: Happy Birthday Cynthia! :)
Message:
Dear Cynthia,
I don't know you well at all but I noticed it is your birthday and I wanted to wish you a good one. I use to be the birthday goddess but I think I am the birthday goblin now! :|
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 00:37:49 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: Happy Birthday Cynthia! :)
Message:
Happy Birthday, Cynthia! Hope you had a wonderful day. Glad you're here on the forum -
Love,
Katie
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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 04:28:20 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Happy Birthday Cynthia!
Message:
Yes, happy birthday and I second Katie's thought on your contributions here on the Forum.
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Date: Wed, Nov 10, 1999 at 11:08:33 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Cynthia G.
Subject: Happy Birthday ... and isn't Mili an idiot?
Message:
Cynthia,

I almost choked on my Yve's soya-based imitation deli slices when I read Mili's typically stupid and thoughtless comment:

Have you looked at the page view stats on Maharaji's site lately? That counter is blowin' it's cork, I tell you! I really appreciate that website - it's the kind of personal contact I was wishing for.

What page is he talking about? Surely not the 'I'm no leader (never was, never will be) -- I'M A SUCCESSFUL PRIVATE INVESTOR!!' The one where 'email responses' is nothing more than a tally -- obviously a lying one at that -- of how many people have written to tell him that they love him more than ever.

THAT's the personal contact Mili's been waiting for?

Mili, you really are a goof. A major, stupid, idiotic .... idiot. That's right, an idiotic idiot.

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Date: Wed, Nov 10, 1999 at 15:16:50 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: He's a successful private investor...
Message:
He may be a successful private investor, but where did he get the money to invest? Is that what we gave him money for -- so he could multiply his wealth exponentially? Does he plow the profits back into EV???? No, I didn't think so.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 10:44:50 (EST)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: He's a successful private investor...
Message:
Get real Marriane he stole it from his family and smuggled it in the perfect model of a corporate citizen. :=)
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Date: Wed, Nov 10, 1999 at 15:26:22 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: No one needs to know that
Message:
The fact that the Master is a successful private investor speaks of the Glory of his power. No one should be concerned as to the source of the funds that he successfully invests.

Maharaji is like a homesteader who was given land. Maharaji cleared that land, irrigated it, planted his seeds, and tended it and weeded it. Now, he harvests the fruits of his efforts. Ex-premies are simply jealous of his success.

Keep in touch with Maharaji and you can learn more. Coming soon to your community will be a special participation meeting with special guest speaker Yoram Weiss.

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Date: Wed, Nov 10, 1999 at 11:07:19 (EST)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Cynthia G.
Subject: Re: Mili Gives Satsang--See.....
Message:
Cynthia,

Are you trying to tell me that you won't be sneaking a peek at Maharaji.org every now and then anymore? C'mon, you've got to be pulling my leg.

All the best, anyway.

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Date: Wed, Nov 10, 1999 at 11:25:41 (EST)
From: Cynthia G.
Email: cynthia@madriver.com
To: Jim
Subject: Thanks, Jim
Message:
Dear Jim,

Mili really doesn't get the point does he? If he wants to talk about numbers, how about the number of dollars I personally donated via handing my paycheck over to the ashram for several years, including all my income tax refund checks. Not to mention the number of dollars, owed to me for the hours of labor spent (counting them would be impossible because work records were never kept) working on a fucking jet he never even used.

I'm angry and happy. I can sustain both emotions and live well. It's my birthday, I'm celebrating the day of my birth with glee.

Love, Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Nov 10, 1999 at 11:34:44 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Cynthia G.
Subject: Sorry, is that your SPIRITUAL birthday?
Message:
Remeber all that jazz? Funny to think that my 'spiritual birthday' (i.e. the day I got kicked into the cult) is now so proportionally close to my real birthday. Like I'm 45 but 'spiritually' I'm 26.

Boy, does this Knowledge ever get better! Hey, look ma, I'm realized! I just go up, up infinitely up!

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Date: Wed, Nov 10, 1999 at 13:45:27 (EST)
From: Cynthia G.
Email: cynthia@madriver.com
To: Jim
Subject: Sing me a bajan b-day tune!
Message:
Jim,

I thought of that when I was posting, but I would have gotten a bit too sarcastic. I'd be...let's see, 23 years unrealized!

So much for cult-speak. Newbies don't know anything about 'sprirtual birthdays,' btw.

love, Cynthia

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