Jim -:- Rythmic music and everything -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 15:57:50 (EST)

__ Charles -:- Tacky (NT) -:- Mon, Nov 08, 1999 at 00:33:40 (EST)

__ Deputy Dog -:- What, no vilification? (nt) -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 22:17:54 (EST)

__ Deputy Dog -:- Jim? What, no vilification? -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 22:16:00 (EST)

__ __ Jim -:- Glad you dropped by, little doggie -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 22:27:36 (EST)

__ __ __ Ned Kelly -:- Re: Glad you dropped by, little doggie -:- Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 01:11:50 (EST)

__ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Thanks for noticing, little Jimmy -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 22:58:26 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- You can call me James, you can call me Jimmy, you can call me ..... -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 23:02:45 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- How about Jamie? Catweasal called you that -:- Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 00:23:01 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Ned Kelly -:- Re: How about Jamie? Catweasal called you that -:- Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 01:40:49 (EST)

__ Joey -:- Re: Rythmic music and everything cultlike -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 20:53:02 (EST)

__ __ Roger eDrek -:- Yup, it's all very staged down to atomic time -:- Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 02:41:15 (EST)

__ __ __ Cynthia G. -:- Sing to me Goo Marji............. -:- Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 08:57:51 (EST)

Jim -:- Cyber tigers (real world wimps) -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 14:16:50 (EST)

__ Jim -:- All you premies missed the point -:- Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 19:13:19 (EST)

__ __ Harry -:- Re: All you premies missed the point -:- Mon, Nov 08, 1999 at 00:28:57 (EST)

__ __ __ Jim -:- Who are you, Harry and why do you bother? -:- Mon, Nov 08, 1999 at 11:24:36 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Harry -:- Re: Who are you, Harry and why do you bother? -:- Mon, Nov 08, 1999 at 17:41:09 (EST)

__ __ Deputy Dog -:- Miss the point? I thought we made it quite clear (nt) -:- Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 23:18:14 (EST)

__ __ __ Jim -:- The point is simple: you guys are afraid to talk about Maharaji off-line -:- Mon, Nov 08, 1999 at 11:32:48 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- The point is simple: I don't anyone souring my experience of meditation (nt) -:- Tues, Nov 09, 1999 at 11:19:43 (EST)

__ Shp -:- Jim proves Maharaji is right about something -:- Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 09:44:21 (EST)

__ Shp -:- Jim shakes fist at sun and sky as bird flies over and shits on him (nt) -:- Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 09:02:35 (EST)

__ __ Jim -:- Say what you will, the truth is you're a coward and you know it -:- Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 13:22:22 (EST)

__ __ __ Shp -:- Reply to Massa Jim, please don't use the whip agin, Massa Jim, puleeeeeeze! -:- Wed, Nov 10, 1999 at 21:37:14 (EST)

__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Shp is no longer on the fence? (nt) -:- Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 15:36:27 (EST)

__ __ __ __ who knows -:- Re: Shp is no longer on the fence? (nt) -:- Mon, Nov 08, 1999 at 14:51:34 (EST)

__ Mili -:- Re: Cyber tigers (real world wimps) -:- Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 07:49:21 (EST)

__ Harry -:- No fuckin' wonder -:- Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 02:04:00 (EST)

__ Deputy Dog -:- Re: Cyber tigers (real world masochists?) -:- Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 00:16:44 (EST)

__ __ Roger eDrek -:- BREAKING NEWS! Jim's Inflexible Point of View -:- Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 03:05:03 (EST)

__ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: BREAKING NEWS! Jim's Inflexible Point of View -:- Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 03:44:06 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Roger Intolerant eDrek -:- A little advice -:- Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 04:21:26 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Roger, as a deputy I defend the Law -:- Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 12:07:58 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- You be the star alright (nt) -:- Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 15:26:02 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Doggie Poo's as big a fruitcake as JHS -:- Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 14:48:40 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Hey, if they can't take fuck, joke em . . . . -:- Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 15:33:37 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Ah ha! I detect P/A behavior!!! -:- Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 19:46:22 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Gerry poo - And what about the little scam you just pulled? (nt) -:- Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 15:39:24 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Yeah, Gerry. What about your scam? -:- Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 16:09:46 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Re: Yeah, Gerry. What about your scam? -:- Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 19:17:31 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- I was just kidding. Besides... -:- Mon, Nov 08, 1999 at 04:02:05 (EST)

__ JW -:- Jim, cut down on the coffee, okay? -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 18:20:41 (EST)

__ __ Jim -:- Yeah? You're just jealous -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 22:38:32 (EST)

gerry -:- opportunities: lost and found -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 12:47:16 (EST)

__ Roger eDrek -:- Gerry, you never answered my question -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 14:27:07 (EST)

__ __ Cynthia G. -:- Re: Gerry, you never answered my question -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 16:40:49 (EST)

__ __ __ gerry -:- Knowledge was never supposed to be complicated. -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 18:14:11 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Baragon.com -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 18:17:44 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Re: Baragon.com -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 18:55:47 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia G. -:- Re: Baragon.com -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 19:25:17 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Re: Baragon -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 19:13:33 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- SNAAAAAAAAAAAP!!!!!!!! -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 21:30:04 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek Deprogrammers Inc. -:- It's not that simple, Gerry -:- Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 02:19:16 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Re: SNAAAAAAAAAAAP!!!!!!!! -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 21:37:56 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Re: SNAAAAAAAAAAAP!!!!!!!! -:- Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 11:24:26 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia G. (for gullible) -:- At Least We Got the Baragon Issue Settled!!! (nt) -:- Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 08:44:33 (EST)

Sir Dave -:- Maharaji is losing the web war -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 06:23:02 (EST)

__ Runamok -:- You may be losing your mind is all, Dave -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 08:58:16 (EST)

__ Ned Kelly -:- Re: Maharaji is losing the web war -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 08:26:49 (EST)

__ __ Sir Dave -:- Re: Maharaji is losing the web war -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 11:15:15 (EST)

__ __ __ Ned Kelly -:- Re: Maharaji is losing the web war -:- Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 01:20:40 (EST)

__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Re: Maharaji is losing the web war -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 14:30:31 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Ned Kelly -:- Re: Maharaji is losing the web war -:- Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 06:20:11 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Thanks for the tip. Spam, no the results are not there -:- Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 17:51:18 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Ned Kelly -:- Re: Thanks for the tip. Spam, no the results are not there -:- Mon, Nov 08, 1999 at 02:44:31 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Nice one Roger! -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 15:50:58 (EST)

youngold -:- random impressions -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 22:48:37 (EST)

__ JW -:- Re: random impressions -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 01:21:20 (EST)

__ __ youngold -:- Re: random impressions -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 07:12:59 (EST)

Brian -:- Contributions Requested -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 22:29:24 (EST)

__ Katie -:- some details re contributing -:- Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 14:02:37 (EST)

who knows -:- so...they won -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 16:44:46 (EST)

__ Katie -:- Re: so...they won -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 23:57:14 (EST)

__ Sir Dave -:- Re: so...they won -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 19:22:56 (EST)

__ __ URL -:- Re: so...they won -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 20:17:04 (EST)

__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Re: so...they won -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 21:16:38 (EST)

__ __ __ __ URL -:- Re: so...they won -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 21:21:18 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- How about an experiement? -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 02:18:38 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Or try this... -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 05:51:10 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- It wouldn't be the same without them -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 06:09:08 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- I Agree, Sir Dave -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 13:29:35 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- How about zapping the premie trolls and lets see what that does? -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 10:58:15 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Cconfuse or obfuscate issues, indeed -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 14:39:40 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- A matter of drawing lines -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 17:18:42 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ artist -:- drawing lines -:- Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 22:51:31 (EST)

URL -:- A slightly edited post from below -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 14:18:33 (EST)

__ Roger eDrek -:- A kinder gentler World of Knowledge? -:- Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 04:07:01 (EST)

__ chr -:- Re: A slightly edited post from below -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 01:06:45 (EST)

__ __ J.D -:- Re: A slightly edited post from below -:- Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 06:25:41 (EST)

__ JW -:- Oh....My....God....Such and Ignorant Post, URL -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 23:53:40 (EST)

__ __ Susan -:- Great post JW! -:- Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 17:13:15 (EST)

__ __ Roger eDrek -:- ***Best of Fourm*** (take a break, URL) -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 02:36:01 (EST)

__ JHB -:- M's investments -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 22:02:13 (EST)

__ __ Ben Not Lurking Much Anymore -:- Re: M's investments -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 11:32:08 (EST)

__ __ __ Joey -:- Re: M's investments -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 12:04:41 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Re: 'Revisionism' - just an ex slogan? -:- Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 08:13:29 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Thanks guys & URL too, believe it or not -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 16:37:14 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- great post Marianne! (nt) -:- Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 19:24:03 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Great post Marianne! -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 17:43:05 (EST)

Sir Dave -:- A new retreat for weary soldiers -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 14:04:32 (EST)

__ Bitching -:- Re: A new retreat for weary soldiers -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 17:51:49 (EST)

__ __ Sir Dave -:- Re: A new retreat for weary soldiers -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 19:10:36 (EST)

__ __ URL -:- My fellow brothers in arms... -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 18:15:05 (EST)

__ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: My fellow brothers in arms... -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 22:36:00 (EST)

__ __ __ __ URL -:- Re: My fellow brothers in arms... -:- Mon, Nov 08, 1999 at 13:41:59 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: My fellow brothers in arms... -:- Tues, Nov 09, 1999 at 17:01:46 (EST)

Date: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 15:57:50 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: All Subject: Rythmic music and everything Message:

For those of us unable to get to India this year, a truly joyous occasion. Lots of Happy Clappers, sounds like: Maharaji raised some speculation about whether tonight's event would be the last of the year. He mentioned the possibility of another satellite broadcast from the West soon. So, whether or not Hans Jayanti '99 is the last event he attends this Millennium remains to be seen. But what is certain is that the huge crowd gathered in Shri Sant Yogashram will never forget the evening of 5 November. After talking for over an hour, Maharaji quickly left the stage after just a few 'bhajans' had been sung. But it soon became obvious that he would return. Two mikes were rigged on the stage and before long Maharaji returned with Daya. 'If I sing, you will have to sing with me,' he said. No problem there. Soon he was conducting over 70,000 Indians who sung one Hindi refrain and the international contingent, helped by Daya, with another: 'Night and day: with you I will stay.' This was something completely new. Maharaji and his daughter soon had the place completely rocking and as soon as the western visitors started to flag with their chorus he was on their case, encouraging them to sing louder. The volume rose gleefully. As the crowd sung on, Maharaji closed his eyes and started to sing over the chorus with hand gestures reminiscent of his father and master, Shri Hans Ji Maharaj, in whose honour Hans Jayanti is held. Those who understand something of the relationship of student and master and how special it is will realise that at this point words really fail to do justice to what was happening. It could only be described as a fantastic phenomenon. But there was more to come: an animated 'Welcome to the New Millennium' cartoon had the already rapturous audience laughing as two very cute swans flapped around the world. Then, machines puffed clouds of smoke atop the audience and a battery of lasers kicked in with a display of glorious incandescence. Butterflies of lights skittered through the crowd highlighting an eye here, a hand there. Above the crescendo of the rhythmic music you could still hear the awed silence of the Indian crowd for whom this was a novel experience. As the lasers continued to cut swathes of colour through the air, fireworks rocketed skyward, exploding with jaw-dropping splendour above so many thousands of people whose hearts were filled thanks and laughter at the surprise of it all. Maharaji spoke this evening in front of a chequered backdrop; in each square was a picture of his father.

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Date: Mon, Nov 08, 1999 at 00:33:40 (EST) From: Charles Email: None To: Jim Subject: Tacky (NT) Message:

nt

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Date: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 22:17:54 (EST) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Jim Subject: What, no vilification? (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 22:16:00 (EST) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Jim Subject: Jim? What, no vilification? Message:

nt

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Date: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 22:27:36 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Glad you dropped by, little doggie Message:

Dog, Can we talk? I mean seriously now. You DO have a way of glancing off issues a bit. Not that there's anything wrong with that ... necessarily ... but there IS one thing I'd like to pursue with some precision with you, if'n you don't mind. In a thread below, I commented on Maharaji's recently saying (as reported on ELK) that 'there was a good reason for both our hearts and minds. They work on different frequencies and the heart can figure out what the mind is incapable of experiencing.' I said that was nonsense, mere superstition. New age foolishness. Take your pick. You replied that Maharaji must have been speaking metaphorically. Soon after, however, you resiled from that view and admitted that, to the contrary, he meant the actual heart. Okay, so where does that leave us? If Maharaji meant what he said literally -- a point which you now concede -- it raises the question all over again: what the fuck is he talking about?

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Date: Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 01:11:50 (EST) From: Ned Kelly Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: Glad you dropped by, little doggie Message:

Simple Jim, you have no heart so you'll never know !

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Date: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 22:58:26 (EST) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Jim Subject: Thanks for noticing, little Jimmy Message:

Jim, Why would anyone want to talk about a muscle beating in their chest? M was obviously talking metaphorically. Please read my post again. The heart is a metaphor for true nature, soul, essence, core etc. And Jim, I've warned you before about denigrating my monicker. I have told you in no uncertain terms that if you continue to call me doggie, little doggie, dawg, puppy etc., anything other than Deputy Dog, I will retaliate by calling you Jamie, Little Jimmy, James, Jay-Jay, ANYTHING that will stop this unwarranted, groundless, reprehensible, and loathsome psychological abuse. Does it bother you that people like to meditate and respect the person that showed them how? No, DON'T answer that, it obviously does. Dep

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Date: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 23:02:45 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: You can call me James, you can call me Jimmy, you can call me ..... Message:

Doggie poo, What is this? First you say 'metaphorically'. Then you say 'literally'. Now you're saying 'metaphorically' again. Whatever, eh? I guess it doesn't matter what Maharaji says, does it? It's all nonsense. Only an ex would be stupid enough to actually think about it. Huh?

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Date: Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 00:23:01 (EST) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Jim Subject: How about Jamie? Catweasal called you that Message:

I'm warning you Jim, No more ridiculing of my manly monicker! When I said 'okay he's talking about a muscle in your chest,' I was being sarcastic. Perhaps my jokes are a little too sophisticated for you. Dep

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Date: Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 01:40:49 (EST) From: Ned Kelly Email: Dine...for particular C... To: Deputy Dog Subject: Re: How about Jamie? Catweasal called you that Message:

Hey Deputy Dog , do you go back away ? Do you remember a really agro, pissed off loon called Jamie, who would constantly physically attack people. WELL, I THINK WE'VE FOUND HIM!!!.....YES>>>JIM/JAMIE COME ON DOWN 'THIS IS YOUR LIFE'

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Date: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 20:53:02 (EST) From: Joey Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: Rythmic music and everything cultlike Message:

This was something completely new. Maharaji and his daughter soon had the place completely rocking and as soon as the western visitors started to flag with their chorus he was on their case, encouraging them to sing louder. The volume rose gleefully. As the crowd sung on, Maharaji closed his eyes and started to sing over the chorus with hand gestures reminiscent of his father and master, Shri Hans Ji Maharaj, in whose honour Hans Jayanti is held. Those who understand something of the relationship of student and master and how special it is will realise that at this point words really fail to do justice to what was happening. It could only be described as a fantastic phenomenon. I DO 'understand something of the relationship between student and master'...its something I've invested plenty of time and energy doing...and I can relate to a time not so long ago, just a few years back when I too would have felt that, 'words really fail to do justice to what was happening. It could only be described as a fantastic phenomenon.' Instead here I am today and I DO have words for what was happening...and it was the effects of classic cult mind control or whatever you want to call it. Sorry to our premieji who authored that article for the ELK site...but there are PLENTY of words that could be used to understand what was really happening if he/she wanted to(try some of these borrowed from Robert J Lifton: 'milieu control', 'mystical manipulation (or) planned spontaneity', 'loading of the language', 'dispensing of the existence' .....but of course that would just negate that understanding and that feeling and that experience of it being a fantastic phenomenon. And of course no premie would want that. Unless they've had enough, or are close to it. I mean who WOULDN'T want to get out of a cult where you get to experience the 'fantastic phenomenon' of WHAT?!!! Again , here it is: As the crowd sung on, Maharaji closed his eyes and started to sing over the chorus with hand gestures reminiscent of his father and master, Shri Hans Ji Maharaj, in whose honour Hans Jayanti is held. If a hampster sing along is what you call a 'fantastic phenomenon',then my heart goes out to you for your truly 'fantastic problem'. Its called 'idolatry'...and you're in a bad cult. I hope it doesn't come crashing down on you.

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Date: Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 02:41:15 (EST) From: Roger eDrek Email: None To: Joey Subject: Yup, it's all very staged down to atomic time Message:

Maharaji knows exactly what he's doing. He might even have professional choreographers making it even more so, so beautiful. I remember the 1977 Rome Hans Jayanti where Maharaji showed some vintage footage of his father, Shri Hans. In one scene Shri Hans scratches one side of his head with his hand, reaching over to the other side like the right hand scratching the left side of the head. In the next appearance of Maharaji the young Maharaji performs the exact same scratching of the head in the exact same fashion. Why? Because he had set it up for the purpose of giving him added credibility where he was supposedly the one and the same as Shri Hans. Again, in this description of Hans Jayanti Maharaji is said to be conducting the music in the same way as Shri Hans did. Not a coincidence. Staged!

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Date: Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 08:57:51 (EST) From: Cynthia G. Email: cynthia@madriver.com To: Roger eDrek Subject: Sing to me Goo Marji............. Message:

......and roll me a joint........ Of course it's staged. He's a master manipulator. He knows what the devotees want and surpasses that expectation when funds are low. Lots of bliss for the western premies to bring back to the tiny communities, too. Yup, that video will be replayed many many many times. Love, Cynthia P.S. It's snowing here in Vermont. In earnest. It's accummulating, too. Nice thing about this place is that it feels like a different country up here. And everyone gets really happy when it snows. The state keeps the roads so clear a 2 footer doesn't stop folks from getting out and about. The salt is hell on cars......Bye.

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Date: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 14:16:50 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: All Subject: Cyber tigers (real world wimps) Message:

I don't know how many of you have had a chance to notice the great difference between arguing with Maharaji's cult members here and doing so in person. I'm still in touch with several premies and even see one or two socially now and then. As you might expect, I never pass up an opportunity to fill them in on the latest developments or disclosure on the forum or ridicule the cult. Why would I? It's just so easy and sure beats talking sports. Anyway, here's what I've found: no premie I've ever met can rationally discuss their cult and its leader. Each and every premie, at one point or another, abandons all reason -- or even any appearance of reason -- and quits, runs or throws up their hands in confusion. There are no exceptions; they all wither like hot house flowers. It's even that way on the phone. Chris Dickey for example? If you've been around here for any length of time you'll know CD as a smug, if superficial, little philosopher type who likes to chime in with nonsense about the square root of pi and the inverse quadrant of infinite bliss and such. Say what you will to him here, he's impenetrable. Sure, you can piss him off but you can't get him to concede anything. If he doesn't have an answer he'll post some non-sequiter just to get a rise out of you. In his own mnd he thinks he's really 'meeting the opposition'. But I've talked with Chris on the phone. He wanted to say hi and avoid the topic at hand but I wasn't so inclined. Why would I argue for years with this idiot on the forum only to avoid the subject when we finally talk with each other? Forget it. I've got nothing to hide. Anyway, we did start talking about Maharaji. And guess what? Within moments Chris was stymied. No fancy footwork, more like frozen-bunny-in-the-headlights syndrome. Chris, ol' buddy, we should have taped it. You need a reminder every now and then of how absolutely impossible it is to defend your cult in real time. Now that would teach you more fo your coveted humility better than watching the Hamster drone on about it in a million videos, I'd say. Funny that you haven't called back again. Maybe I should call you this afternoon, huh? Feel like chatting a bit? The premies I do see now and again socially only see me on the tacit understanding that I won't rip into them too often or too harshly about their stupid mind trap. Of course if anyone mentions anything about Maharaji they get super nervous. They know -- oh yes they do! -- that they can't possibly say anything on his behalf that doesn't sound stupid. So, for the most part, they slink away with their tails between their legs. The only premies who have ever been able to even fake a discussion about Maharaji are the new age freaks like Annie Wood who I spoke with a few times earlier this year and the only way they can keep the conversation going is by playing shameless new-age word games that digress forever and truly forestall all hopes of communication. Take Jack Tuff for instance? Jack, I wouldn't be surprised if you're reading this now. For all I know you've retreated into the cowardly anonymity of a pseudonym after your earlier efforts to 'justify your love' ended in such disaster. Or maybe you're just lurking. Seething and lurking. In any event, when we met that day on Johnson Street and went for lunch you were the one who folded, buddy. You were the one who admitted that you just can't defend your belief system and that's about that. At that point, I quit -- the victor. What's so obvious is that Maharaji's the worst example of such a paper/cyber/satellite tiger. He can talk and talk and talk but he can't answer a single question from anyone who's really got a bead on his beady little eyes. Remember all those cult images of his supposedly 'realized' and fearless -- oh, sorry, guiless -- eyes? Truth be told I bet I could stare the fucker down in a heartbeat. Like I've said, like we all could say, I've got nothing to hide. Maharaji, on the other hand, is a walking pinata full of secrets, deceits and embarrassment. He's a bundle of shame and no amount of donations can change that fact. He knows it, his own brother as much as told me that. Really, how else should one interpret the fact that Raja Ji whined to me that Maharaji wouldn't even answer his questions about his so-called divinity, etc.? I see fear all around this trip. Am I imagining it? If you think so, Shp, Url, or even you, little Doggie, give me a call. Give any of us a call. You won't last but a minute in real time and you know it. Your charade here is just a pathetic farce that exploits this most forgiving medium. Not forgiving enough, midn you, for you all to be able to openly talk amongst yourselves, apparently. Remember the forum that ELK promised? What happened? Or how about Harlan's various web sites? Why didn't they ever work? Why were they shut down? Or Dickey's own pathetic premie forum, the one David set up for him but which no premies use for more than an occasional 'hi, Happy New Breath'? All failed because you guys are all too fucked up to even talk with each other! So where does that leave you? Coming here and wasting our time like stupid gadflies. Fine. Whatever. The point is there though -- you guys are really too weak, lost and confused to actually discuss the Hamster in real time. This, I'm afraid, is all you can do.

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Date: Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 19:13:19 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: All you premies missed the point Message:

A lot of replies, a lot of thrown wet noodles, but nothing on point. What's wrong, premies? Can't deal with the fact that none of you can really sit down and discuss your cult leader without freaking? All of you hide behind the glass wall of this medium. Come on, prove me wrong. Call me -- (250)360-1040.

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Date: Mon, Nov 08, 1999 at 00:28:57 (EST) From: Harry Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: All you premies missed the point Message:

I'm just making the point that your communication skills could do with a bit of a touch up. You talk of hiding behind this medium, but I bet you don't talk to people in the real world like you talk to them here, but if I'm wrong and you do, then I bet you've had a few broken noses along the way. I'm not a premie BTW.

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Date: Mon, Nov 08, 1999 at 11:24:36 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Harry Subject: Who are you, Harry and why do you bother? Message:

Harry, Are you the same guy that posts nothing about nothing over on AG? What's going on, Har? Why are you here? You just stumble in here by accident or something? Do you know anything at all about this cult? Do you care? What's your trip?

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Date: Mon, Nov 08, 1999 at 17:41:09 (EST) From: Harry Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: Who are you, Harry and why do you bother? Message:

Jim >>>>Are you the same guy that posts nothing about nothing over on AG?<<<< Yeah, that's me, simple, shallow Harry. Don't sweat it, but I don't like seeing people kick dogs, stand on bugs, or treat other people like shit, simple. There's a lot of pain out there, besides your own, and slamming people with sledgehammers ain't helping your cause. Like my Mum used to say, 'there's no excuse for bad manners Harry'. Harry

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Date: Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 23:18:14 (EST) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Jim Subject: Miss the point? I thought we made it quite clear (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Nov 08, 1999 at 11:32:48 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: The point is simple: you guys are afraid to talk about Maharaji off-line Message:

Get it, little Doggie?

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Date: Tues, Nov 09, 1999 at 11:19:43 (EST) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Jim Subject: The point is simple: I don't anyone souring my experience of meditation (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 09:44:21 (EST) From: Shp Email: None To: Jim Subject: Jim proves Maharaji is right about something Message:

Jim, You have proven in action that there is at least one thing in the universe that is not subject to your scrutiny or discussion. And just because the Meaning of Life doensn't fit into that little slide holder on the student microscope of your mind, doesn't mean it doesn't exist, is not valid, or that Maharaji doesn't reveal it, despite whatever else he has going on. Yep, one reason that this realm of realization and Knowledge is so cool is that it has no opposite to argue, sorry counselor, and you must abandon that polarity view of the universe at the door along with your guns and holsters, just like a friendly saloon on the frontier. This is not an arguable issue. If it was I could talk you under the table and into the foundation of the building you are in. But that is not the venue we are in now, so my prowess at debate has no use or purpose in defending Maharaji or Knowledge. It is simply not necessary. Capice? Shp

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Date: Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 09:02:35 (EST) From: Shp Email: None To: Jim Subject: Jim shakes fist at sun and sky as bird flies over and shits on him (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 13:22:22 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Shp Subject: Say what you will, the truth is you're a coward and you know it Message:

Shp, You don't have an ounce of credibility left. Instead you've proven yourself to be a cowardly new age windbag. Forget about the fact that you're afraid to talk with me in person. That's nothing. What's bigger is how you dealt with the Jagdeo issue. You came on like a Lion but wimpered away like a lamb. A very quiet lamb at that. Really, the Cowardly Lion comes to mind. Go back and read some of your passionate proclamations for truth and righteousness. Nothing was going to stop you from getting to the bottom of the matter, right? Why you even fearlessly wrote the Wizard himself! Remember? Shp wasn't no mealy-mouthed anonymous premie, afraid to stand for something and let the Shps fall where they may. No, this guru had better realize this was Sanford Pass, Man of Truth he was dealing with and Sanford Pass, Man of Truth wanted some answers. Hey, man the barricades, pass the ammunition and, don't forget the 'wittow, wittow wuns'. This campaign has just begun! So what happens? I'll tell you what happens. Shp gets stonewalled by the cult (what a surprise) and is stuck. He's completely roared himself into a corner but, like the coward he really is, doesn't have the guts to admit it. The cult's not going to answer, Shp's not going to be able to give Maharaji the 'benefit of the doubt' much longer and -- oh no -- something's got to give. Well something did give and that something was Shp's spandex Superman costume. It's torn, looks ridiculous, Shp realizes he can't quite make it as Sanford Pass, Man of Truth and so he gives up the role. 'What about Jagdeo?' someone asked Shp earlier today? I can just hear Shp mumbling below his breath as he tries to figure out what kind of bullshit spin he can possibly put on his broken promise to get to the bottom of the matter, 'Who the fuck cares?' Special Message to the Wee Wittow Wittow Wuns: I'm sorry, litle ones, but we're going to have to find you another hero. Poor Shp can't take this campaign any further. You know, it's not that he doesn't care, it's just that, in the final analysis, Shp's a cult member and, as we know, they all cower before their leader. Sorry.

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Date: Wed, Nov 10, 1999 at 21:37:14 (EST) From: Shp Email: None To: Jim Subject: Reply to Massa Jim, please don't use the whip agin, Massa Jim, puleeeeeeze! Message:

Hey Jim, I just caught this latest bile from you. Why don't you go after the parents of the little ones who found out what was going on, and have me for dessert. In reality, they are the main course for your attack, since they are the legal and moral guardians of their young. I was just passing by, didn't have to do shit, but was moved to act as I was moved to and able. The fact that I got no response from Maharaji didn't surprise either of us, did it? And the letter that I got from EV president Linda Gross I passed on to Anth to use on behalf of Susan and Abi and whoever else he is trying to help. Let's face it Jim, you won't be happy or approving of me until my super costume has a little 'j' on it as a member of your attack team counterpart of the Legion of Ex-super heroes. Until then, I really don't expect us to get along on any level. So while I am digesting and purging the putrid vibes of your post, why don't you contact the PARENTS and ream them a new asshole? I was just passing by, saw something that looked like a really gross injustice, got some reply from EV, passed it to Anth, and and going on my way. I think mistakes were made all around this matter and many people share in the legal and moral responsibility. I was not there and I don't know who is directly responsible for what. I was just lending support to the wave of indignation that was coming from this site, Cornwall, England, and some other places Anth told me about. What the hell do you want from me? And you know what else? Even if Maharaji did respond to this matter and made effort to comfort the victims and somehow communicate to them, you would not be satisfied. Even if the kids involved were satisfied that Maharaji had reached out to them and they felt better for it, you'd still be on the warpath. And many of the gripes that you have expressed about Maharaji I think are just plain stupid. So stew in your own juices, man. I am not sorry that I did not please you. You are good with words. Maybe someday you will use them to help and not hurt and you will find your peace. I don't cower before anyone, but I do respect Maharaji more than you. Shp

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Date: Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 15:36:27 (EST) From: Roger eDrek Email: None To: Jim Subject: Shp is no longer on the fence? (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Nov 08, 1999 at 14:51:34 (EST) From: who knows Email: None To: Roger eDrek Subject: Re: Shp is no longer on the fence? (nt) Message:

Forum 5

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Date: Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 07:49:21 (EST) From: Mili Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: Cyber tigers (real world wimps) Message:

Do you think people have nothing better to do on Saturday nights than to engage with you in pointless pissing contests? Grow up. Get a life.

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Date: Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 02:04:00 (EST) From: Harry Email: None To: Jim Subject: No fuckin' wonder Message:

You sure are one grumpy old bastard. I'm as fucking sensitive as the next guy, but if you came into a room and started to interrogate me like you do, and all that anger and fear was directed at me, then I'd say things like 'yes Jim', 'no Jim', 'no worries Jim', as I surreptitiously edged towards the door. If you mellowed out a bit, and sheathed that biting sarcasm of yours, then people might want to share with you a bit more. Harry Harry

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Date: Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 00:16:44 (EST) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: Cyber tigers (real world masochists?) Message:

-- Fine. Whatever. The point is there though -- you guys are really too weak, lost and confused to actually discuss the Hamster in real time. This, I'm afraid, is all you can do. 'Notice you don't say Maharaji here but the Hamster. This may be an indicator that you are predisposed to an inflexible point of view, and that I would be talking to a brick wall, in short, wasting my time. I wouldn't mind talking about M with Mark Appleman, but not you. Besides the crux of the matter is meditation and I value the experience. If you don't that's fine. So if you'll let me, I'll continue to post here. This, I'm afraid, is all you WILL do.' Dep

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Date: Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 03:05:03 (EST) From: Roger eDrek Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: BREAKING NEWS! Jim's Inflexible Point of View Message:

'Notice you don't say Maharaji here but the Hamster. This may be an indicator that you are predisposed to an inflexible point of view' Dawg, I think you're onto something really big here. This could be a major breakthrough in cracking the case, so to speak. Again, back on the topic of the incessant visitations by premies on this forum you guys are expecting and demanding some level playing field where we, the ex-premies, should be open to your points of view on Maharaji and his cult as if none of us were really there. Yes, many of the ex-premies have been gone for a long time and are not hip on how cool and mellow things are now in the high tech World of Knowledge with videos and satellite broadcasts. However, there's enought of us recent ex-premies that are still fairly current. So, you see we've been there. It's not like we're some Bible thumping Christians that showed up at the Houston Astrodome to tell the premies that they are following the anti-Christ (who we all know is really Bill Gates.) But, we've been there. We've done that. We gave it a fair chance or whatever. Many of the ex-premies were in the ashram until the bitter end when they were shown the streets. So, you guys gotta know that you are on our turf here and as far as us being inflexible you are mistaken. In fact, it would appear that your real purpose here is to do spin control for Maharaji by making such statements again and again. And, of course, you certainly know that there is no open communication available for our point of view at any of the pro-Maharaji websites. There is and never was an open dialogue with Maharaji. He has always made sure of that via a permanent lock-down. Unless the few premies who regularily post here are operating with the blessing of Maharaji and Elan Vital I would surmise that he might wish that you wouldn't post here at all. No news is good news. The less said the better. So, you are most likely 100% correct in stating that many of us are completely infexible. Again, we've been there and with the exception of our very own Gerry not too many of us seem to be going back, back to our father. In closing, you guys need a reality check as to what's going on here. You need to know who your audience is and how receptive your pleas might be. Then again, maybe you do know who your audience is - The Boss. And if he is the audience and reading - You're a fraud, Maharaji.

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Date: Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 03:44:06 (EST) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Roger eDrek Subject: Re: BREAKING NEWS! Jim's Inflexible Point of View Message:

Roger, Read my post to URL 'RE: My brothers in arms.' I don't expect to change your point of view, (and definitely not Jim's) so I just come here to have a little fun. I enjoy this site. If I can sneak in a Bible quote or some Rumi or Buddhist stuff now and then, so much the better. I recognize that I'm a guest on your turf and if you don't mind my posts and occasional inanities, I'll keep on dropping by. Dep

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Date: Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 04:21:26 (EST) From: Roger Intolerant eDrek Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: A little advice Message:

If I can sneak in a Bible quote or some Rumi or Buddhist stuff now and then, so much the better. Maybe Sri Davidanand will set up a poll as to the possible receptivity towards spirituality in general. For me, you'd do better using another approach as I've spent all my spiritual savings on Maharaji and have none left to give. Maharaji did, indeed, steal much from me/us as he dismantled all spiritual paths that did not acknowledge him as the Living Lord. Try keeping that spiritual stuff to a minimum and talk about the weather or something benign as you trod (trample) through this quiet Necropolis that many of us call home as you may lose your map and travel in circles for days and days.

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Date: Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 12:07:58 (EST) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Roger Intolerant eDrek Subject: Roger, as a deputy I defend the Law Message:

Roger, I consider myself a lawman here, just like in the old West. But I am defending the Law of God, not of man. And the star I ware is neither on my vest nor is it a corruptible star of metal. NO! The star I ware is an indistiguishable star, not subject to entropy. It has shon from the beginning of time. And I ware this star on the inside. It is the STAR OF DAVID! Dep (What do you think of this JHS?)

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Date: Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 15:26:02 (EST) From: Roger eDrek Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: You be the star alright (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 14:48:40 (EST) From: gerry Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Doggie Poo's as big a fruitcake as JHS Message:

First he screams about what a 'hate site' this is and then he says he 'enjoys this site and comes here to have a little fun.' Then he has the magic 'Star of David' shining within him with no beginning, no entropy... Tell me these people aren't whacknuts!!!

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Date: Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 15:33:37 (EST) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: gerry Subject: Hey, if they can't take fuck, joke em . . . . Message:

gerry, Read JHS's posts. They are brilliant! It's Rob at his very best. And I've learned to lighten up about this site. Is that so wrong? Dep

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Date: Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 19:46:22 (EST) From: gerry Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Ah ha! I detect P/A behavior!!! Message:

When Doggie Doo say is 'Is that so wrong?' it presupposes that I have judged 'lightening up' or humor on the forum to be wrong. This certainly can not be the case as I just pulled a fine spoof, upon which both Dog and URL bit.

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Date: Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 15:39:24 (EST) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: gerry Subject: Gerry poo - And what about the little scam you just pulled? (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 16:09:46 (EST) From: Roger eDrek Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Yeah, Gerry. What about your scam? Message:

A lot of people bought your scam hook line and sinker. You've ruined a lot of credibility of the Forum. The lurking premies will never be able to trust us again.

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Date: Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 19:17:31 (EST) From: JHB Email: None To: Roger eDrek Subject: Re: Yeah, Gerry. What about your scam? Message:

Roger, Who bought the scam, and why is the credibility of the forum ruined? The lurking premies may be here, but before that I believe they would read the ex-premie.org site, all the info there, and a lot of the journeys there. The forum is just the icing on the cake, and after reading all that, and thinking for the first time in their premie lives, Gerry's scam isn't going make any difference. Anyway, I thought it was funny, and I wish he'd developed his return journey further. John.

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Date: Mon, Nov 08, 1999 at 04:02:05 (EST) From: Roger eDrek Email: None To: JHB Subject: I was just kidding. Besides... Message:

I'm not sure how many premies are left. And how many of those even have computers. Who knows who is really reading all this stuff? I just hope that Maharaji is. Yes, Gerry should have run it out for a few more miles. Imagine Gerry, of all people, to return to the Big K. Premies would start emailing him, he'd get front row seats at the festivals, special recognition everywhere he went. I've often thought how interesting it would be if one of the ex-premies would be a double agent for us. My first choice has always been Jim as unlikely as that could ever be. But Gerry, yeah, he could have been the one, he could have been Neo and we could have inserted him into Maharaji's Matrix to muck it up a bit.

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Date: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 18:20:41 (EST) From: JW Email: None To: Jim Subject: Jim, cut down on the coffee, okay? Message:

A lot of energy consumed in that post, Jim, but very right on, as usual. I have been unable to run into a premie in the real world for quite some time now. I think this is because there are very few of them left, at least very few who will admit, outside protected cult circles, that they even ARE premies. An endangered species I am afraid.

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Date: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 22:38:32 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: JW Subject: Yeah? You're just jealous Message:

JW, Somehow you've cut all the cult members out of your life? Pity. I've got a few right here in Victoria and several more over on the mainland. Would you like to meet some? How about lunch with Jack sometime?

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Date: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 12:47:16 (EST) From: gerry Email: None To: All Subject: opportunities: lost and found Message:

Just think if only I hadn't spaced out after Millenium in '73 . All those years I could have been practising and participating. Just think where I'd be today : in a much different head space, for sure. I might even be realized, truly living in permanent peace, permanent bliss. I did try to go it on my own in those bleak months after Houston. I used to sit under my meditation sheet and my mom (yes back home with the folks again) would think I was smoking pot! But it was so hard. I've come to appreciate the concept of 'keeping in touch.' It makes a whole lot of sense to me now. Meditation is coming along beautifully, although my arms get tired. But when I surrender my thoughts and let things flow I find a simplicity within which never deserts me. Well, enough for now. I'm off to my workshop to fashion a baragon! Love, gerry

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Date: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 14:27:07 (EST) From: Roger eDrek Email: None To: gerry Subject: Gerry, you never answered my question Message:

It seems as if we are witnessing a most historic moment here on the Forum where Gerry is once again becoming a Premie. Already Gerry has refused to answer my question below as to how he is managing to keep in touch. As a recent ex-premie I know that the video link to Maharaji is crucial and this sometimes requires watching the same video over and over again. I do have a couple of audio tapes (one that is old and contraband) that I could lend Gerry. So, Gerry, how many videos do you presently own? Also, we know that Gerry received the early version 1.0 technique set. Unless Gerry gets an update soon he could be causing permanent damage to his eyeballs. Hint: Do Not Press Hard on Eyeballs. So, now we come to our dilemma. What should we do about Gerry? Do friends let friends drink and drive? Should we send in an intervention team, a SWAT team? Should we notify Gerry's community of his activities? Or should we track and monitor Gerry's progress as a new feature at Roger's House of Maharaji Drek? I find this is interesting that this is happening at this time when many of us are considering a moratorium on replying to premies posting on the Forum. We can already see the change in Gerry as he signs off his post with a Love instead of a Fuck You! Perhaps, the real signal to us that it is too late for Gerry is when he issues a post that is an apology to Mr. and Mrs. Rawat. Gerry, I think that some money would be in order first.

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Date: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 16:40:49 (EST) From: Cynthia G. Email: cynthia@madriver.com To: Roger eDrek Subject: Re: Gerry, you never answered my question Message:

Has Gerry really gone back? I thought he was joking. Well, brainwashing is powerful stuff. If you're lurking, Gerry: if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a cult! I wish you the best. The best thing about this forum is the freedom of speech. Any talk about not allowing premies to speak here is ludicrous. It's hard to tell the jokes from the real talk sometimes. The only thing I know is that the obnoxious folks who are, or claim to be premies and disrupt us can easily be ignored. I find it tempting to argue, I love a good argument. I have to examine if that's in MY best interests. I can really recue only myself, and if what I say helps someone out of the cult--great. I have to be honest. So the big m sang in India, did he? Hmmmm......cash flow problems. Be well, everyone, Love, Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 18:14:11 (EST) From: gerry Email: None To: Cynthia G. Subject: Knowledge was never supposed to be complicated. Message:

Well, I finished my baragon! What a wonderful aid to medutation. I'll never for the life of me figure out why they went out of style. M's funny about things like that! While polishing its leg and smoothing out the finish on the top piece, I thought ' You know, knowledge is kinda like this baragon for me.' Simple, elegant, functional. And I think it's kinda neat that, like Knowledge for me, the baragon wood too was recycled, from the slats of a bed I once made!

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Date: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 18:17:44 (EST) From: Marianne Email: None To: gerry Subject: Baragon.com Message:

Gerry's opening up a new net company called baragon.com. Send your seed money now. It promises to open large when it goes public! Marianne

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Date: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 18:55:47 (EST) From: JHB Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Re: Baragon.com Message:

I thought it was spelt Beragon so I did an internet search on both spellings. For Beragon I got some 1945 movie with a character called Monte Beragon, and for Baragon I got references to some dinosaur. I must say M's logic for getting rid of Beragons was crap. I mean, for the first two techniques, particularly the second it's simply impossible to do the technique without some support for your arms. OK, if you're travelling and don't have one with you, fine, do without, but if you're at home (which we mostly are) then why the fuck not use one??? John the needing support.

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Date: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 19:25:17 (EST) From: Cynthia G. Email: cynthia@madriver.com To: JHB Subject: Re: Baragon.com Message:

REALLY! Baragons are nice, especially my customized one, with the adjustable leg and cushioned bar. I found it very relaxing, but I heard that the BIG FAT GURU said we're not 'sposed to us 'em, so, I kept using it anyway until I became an ex-premie. I guess it was another hindu thing that had to go. But I'm sure premies use them in secret. It was stupid on m's part. He's full of stupid ideas. He's a stupid asshole jerk-off. Call him Guru Obtuse Ji. It was a beautiful day in Vermont for November. It's stick season and the tourists are gone until hunting season starts. Cold, spittin' snow, wood stove goin'. Love, Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 19:13:33 (EST) From: Marianne Email: None To: JHB Subject: Re: Baragon Message:

John: Luckily, I left before baragons (whatever!) were banned. I have no idea how one would meditate without one. Marianne

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Date: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 21:30:04 (EST) From: gerry Email: None To: Marianne Subject: SNAAAAAAAAAAAP!!!!!!!! Message:

phew! I'm OK now... >Fuck Goober and the Horse he rode in on!!!> Gerry @ ex-pwk-lite.com/bongo/snap.htm

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Date: Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 02:19:16 (EST) From: Roger eDrek Deprogrammers Inc. Email: None To: gerry Subject: It's not that simple, Gerry Message:

Our professionals, certified and bonded, are fully capable in the art and science of deprogramming former cult members. Our success rate with only a 15% regression rate and an industry low 35% suicide rate can help you complete your return to the general population. As you know being involved in a cult is a very serious thing with lifelong negative consequences. Call us today and we will be able to dispatch a team of deprogrammers to your location within 48 hours.

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Date: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 21:37:56 (EST) From: JHB Email: None To: gerry Subject: Re: SNAAAAAAAAAAAP!!!!!!!! Message:

Gerry, No one except URL and SHP believed you'd gone back, but I wish you'd kept the deception going a little longer. John.

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Date: Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 11:24:26 (EST) From: gerry Email: None To: JHB Subject: Re: SNAAAAAAAAAAAP!!!!!!!! Message:

John, Do you know how taxing, how debilitating, how embarrassing it is to talk or write or think like that??? Mercy, please!! 24 hours as a PWK was long enough!!!

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Date: Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 08:44:33 (EST) From: Cynthia G. (for gullible) Email: cynthia@madriver.com To: Gerry Subject: At Least We Got the Baragon Issue Settled!!! (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 06:23:02 (EST) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: All Subject: Maharaji is losing the web war Message:

Go to AltaVista and do a search on 'Maharaji' and you'll see what I mean. Has he abandoned the fight? Has Mr eDrek scared him off? For your convenience, click here to go direct to the Maharaji Altavista search results. There's lot of other Maharaji's coming onto the scene now too.

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Date: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 08:58:16 (EST) From: Runamok Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: You may be losing your mind is all, Dave Message:

No offense but Mirage's war is to keep the money rolling in. He has to either be stopped or broken to lose. The numbers only work if it interferes with his success at hustling money or disciples. He can always play small losses to his benefit (i.e., those exes are so negative). Marbles can get away from you pretty fast.

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Date: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 08:26:49 (EST) From: Ned Kelly Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Re: Maharaji is losing the web war Message:

I don't quite follow your logic Dave. The first 6 sites are all positive towards M. What's your drift?

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Date: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 11:15:15 (EST) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Ned Kelly Subject: Re: Maharaji is losing the web war Message:

A few months ago, the first sixty sites on the index were all Maharaji's. The first anti Maharaji sites hardly showed up at all in the first eighty. And there were scores of Elan Vital sites with different areas, like Tasmania, Sydney etc etc. Most of all that has disappeared and the anti Maharaji sites are now easily found by anyone searching on 'Maharaji'.

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Date: Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 01:20:40 (EST) From: Ned Kelly Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Re: Maharaji is losing the web war Message:

Thats a pity. I find things like that as annoying as fighting my way through the Rechabite sites whilst trying to get a bet on the next race. Pointless and time consuming.Actually Dave there's been little change for about three months .You should look more often.

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Date: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 14:30:31 (EST) From: Roger eDrek Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Re: Maharaji is losing the web war Message:

Maybe Alta Vista has tightened up and recognized his spamming of the search engine. I did email them months ago about his apparent spamming, but I never got a response as was promised.

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Date: Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 06:20:11 (EST) From: Ned Kelly Email: None To: Roger eDrek Subject: Re: Maharaji is losing the web war Message:

Hell, well don't worry Roger .Try MSN ! That should brighten up your day.And you guys wouldn't spam would you?

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Date: Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 17:51:18 (EST) From: Roger eDrek Email: None To: Ned Kelly Subject: Thanks for the tip. Spam, no the results are not there Message:

Weasel, Thanks for the tip about MSN. Looks like a little email is in order to whittle Maharaji down to size in their search engine. No, I didn't spam my website to the search engine as Maharaji has obviously done and the results bare that out. First, Maharaji has money and people whose job it is to work on his website. Me, I've got a life, not a big one, but I don't spend hours and hours and dollars and dollars promoting my website. After all, what's in it for me? It's not like I'm recruiting people in order to later harvest buckets full of tax-free cash.

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Date: Mon, Nov 08, 1999 at 02:44:31 (EST) From: Ned Kelly Email: Look me up...I'm a legend Roger! To: Roger eDrek Subject: Re: Thanks for the tip. Spam, no the results are not there Message:

The fuck you're not Mr Cult of Personality !!!!!Like the man said You're bigger than Jesus!

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Date: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 15:50:58 (EST) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Roger eDrek Subject: Nice one Roger! Message:

That could be it! I'd offer you a Lordship but our House of Lords is going through a revolutionary crisis at the moment. How about I'll 'mention you in despatches'? I never figured out why that was so great but I believe it's an honour. I also wrote to AltaVista once, complaining about Maharaji spamming the search engine so I'll mention myself too. All of those endless web pages in the index of Maharaji's and Helen Vital's sites made it obvious to anyone that Maharaji was trying to force us out of the search engines. He has failed. A battle won by the ex-premies there in the great Web Wars of the turn of the century.

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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 22:48:37 (EST) From: youngold Email: None To: All Subject: random impressions Message:

Ramblings of a thinker.... I don’t like having to choose between labeling myself as premie or ex-premie. I’ve been attacked by both sides... I would like to know as much as possible about how to get the best experience out of life. I don’t want to be at the end of my life and feel that I’ve blown it, wasted it, regretted it. In the late 70’s, there was a mahatma that took advantage of a friend of mine, sexually (my friend is a woman). She called M and a premie answered and relayed the story to M who as standing nearby. ( She could hear him telling the premie what to say) His instruction was carried out. It was to have two “brothers “ hold the mahatma on either side while my friend slapped his face HARD, then spit in his face. He was sent back to India and I never saw him again. I heard M say at a program once “ I don’t want your money, put it in a CD or something” That’s what stuck in my mind... that’s been the advice I’ve taken for a long time. Perhaps the filter I put up when listening to satsangs, ( M’s or anyone’s) screened out what made me cringe. I just discounted it as “not true”. Just trusting my instincts, I guess. While in the ashram, I saw many people come and go. Looking back I’d say that what ever weaknesses or damage people had before K, they pretty much kept that. I was attracted to the promise of happiness. My flaws are with me still. I’ve got a good measure of happiness nowadays, and my share of trials. There was a powerful post from some who said K ruined his time with his daughter. I can relate to that. The early years of my marriage were strained to crisis, partly because of the constant attention to nightly satsangs. In my own case there were other factors in play. I was at a satsang one night and some humble premies traveled 100 miles to come to the big city to hear some powerful satsang. I was asked to speak, but I declined, I was pissed about something. I was told, “just go ahead...just say what you feel! “ I crawled to the front and said, “I hate everyone in this room!” One of the travelers started to cry. Another got up and left. Boy, that was heavy satsang. Could it be that M is the “ perfect master” and a regular human, subject to all the failings of humans? Could he be tempted and fall for the trappings of power and money and pleasures, but still be “ the one”? He said at one point that he didn’t want to be perfect master. Maybe he is struggling to do this thing, but it’s a very hard thing to do. Trial and error. Say that the goal is to give “Raj Yoga” to as many people as possible, and encourage them to practice it. Period. How would one do it? Maybe we are witnessing M trying to do that. Failing and succeeding...trial and error. Many posts say” If he was perfect he would do this, and if he was God, he wouldn’t’ do that.” I don’t know what God would do. What if God was one of us, just a slob like one of us? I’m still giving M the benefit of the doubt. My own take on this whole thing has been mostly positive. Those that have the fierce, mindless, “devotion” make me cringe. I was there. But the angry, hateful “logic” seems to be just as pointless. Remember the analogy of the cave with the water dripping, and if you catch many drops your thirst will be quenched over time? I suspect that’s the way it is.

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Date: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 01:21:20 (EST) From: JW Email: None To: youngold Subject: Re: random impressions Message:

Well, it's true. You have to make up your own mind and no one can do it for you. And nobody has ever said you have to label yourself pro- or con-, premie or ex. If you don't want to do that, then by all means don't. I do have an observation though. I have heard others say what you do, that you didn't take a lot of what Maharaji said seriously or literally. Like the 'fierce mindless devotion' that Maharaji continually talked about, that made you 'cringe.' Maybe you didn't take it seriously, or literally, or 'filtered it out.' For me, I didn't know any other way to take Maharaji than completely literally. I believed he was the messiah, the perfect master, who knew what was best for me more than I did. So, I did what he said, and that included 'fierce, mindless devotion.' I never saw any reason, if I believed that about him, to just pick and choose what I wanted to believe out of what he told me. I have seen a pattern here. People who say they ignored a lot of what Maharaji said, just took what they wanted to believe and ignored the rest, are a lot less upset with him now. And for good reason. But I could never have been that kind of a premie. I can hardly understand how anyone could have been, but if you were, I think you were very lucky. One thing I have learned in my life about not wasting it is this: You have a much better chance of not wasting your life if you live your OWN life, self-directed and free. You have a very high chance of wasting your life if you try to live somebody elses' life, or if you live the life someone else tells you to live. Unfortunately, that's what I did when I was a premie. I didn't follow my own values and direction, I followed Maharaji's directions. Hence, I feel I largely wasted those years of my life. When I quit being a premie, I began to be self-directed again. I started to function by my own judgment and values. Comparing the two periods of my life, the one I've had since I excised Maharaji, has been immensely more fulfilling, satisfying and enjoyable.

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Date: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 07:12:59 (EST) From: youngold Email: None To: JW Subject: Re: random impressions Message:

well said.

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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 22:29:24 (EST) From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: All Subject: Contributions Requested Message:

We're at that point again where we have to pay the site server for Ex-Premie.Org. The balance needed to be paid is 154.00 dollars (US), and keeps us running until October 2000. Those who wish to contribute money should email me at brian@ex-premie.org for the details. (The checks need to be made out to the server rather than to me, but they all have to be sent to me first so that I can keep photocopieys and send them all in with the billing statement.)

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Date: Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 14:02:37 (EST) From: Katie Email: None To: all Subject: some details re contributing Message:

Here are some more details regarding contributions to ex-premie.org. We usually ask people to make out checks to our webserver in multiples of $25.00 (i.e. $25, $50, and so forth). However, smaller contributions are, of course, welcome - whatever people can afford. If we get more contributions than we need for the next year, we send them to the server for credit for the next year (for example, this year we have some credit that's rolling over.)

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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 16:44:46 (EST) From: who knows Email: None To: All Subject: so...they won Message:

first, there was a new forum for the newly exiting exes. Now, Dave is introducing a new forum for the weary exes... what is going on? is everyone retiring, leaving the place to premies only? this whole thing is falling apart...what happenned?

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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 23:57:14 (EST) From: Katie Email: None To: who knows Subject: Re: so...they won Message:

Hi w.k. - I've been hanging around here for a while and I've found the forum to be really dynamic. There are more people participating than ever before, and sometimes it's nice to get together in a smaller group and talk. I don't think things are falling apart - just changing.

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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 19:22:56 (EST) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: who knows Subject: Re: so...they won Message:

It's either falling apart or it's expanding. One very, very interesting thing about the internet is that a person alone can weald a hell of a lot of power all over the world. It all began with Jim Heller arguing the toss on the ancient Premie Guestbook, a few years ago. Then another ex-premie started a forum and within a few months Maharaji was telling premies not to go onto the internet but to 'get a life'. Some guy, sitting in a room somewhere with a computer was causing some major headaches to the Lord of the Universe! A Bishop said yesterday that he considered the internet to be the greatest advancement in communications since the invention of printing. I think he was right.

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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 20:17:04 (EST) From: URL Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Re: so...they won Message:

A Bishop said yesterday that he considered the internet to be the greatest advancement in communications since the invention of printing. I think he was right. Yeah but before you go breaking out the champagne, have a looksee at all the garbage it's being used for to communicate. Most of the schlock out there you can't trust as credible. Hey, look no further than ex-premie.org... for example.

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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 21:16:38 (EST) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: URL Subject: Re: so...they won Message:

I agree that a lot of it's crap but there's fantastic educational benefits which were unknown just a few years ago. The Bishop did mention what I wrote in the post above because he was launching a Church organisation to advise and monitor the internet. Not that anyone is going to take any notice here of what the church says but he was pointing out what he considered the dangers; porn was his first danger which I wouldn't agree with and then lack of personal contact which I agree could be a danger if the net became the only communication in a person's life. But back to your comment about ex-premie.org; what do you find on that site which is not credible?

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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 21:21:18 (EST) From: URL Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Re: so...they won Message:

I don't have time today Dave to give your question a fair response. Maybe that would be a project for me to highlight all the things about ex-premie.org that is rumour, lie, innuendo, biased opinion, or just plain suspect. Of course I'll also look for things that I would consider credible.

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Date: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 02:18:38 (EST) From: Roger eDrek Email: None To: URL Subject: How about an experiement? Message:

Ok, the Forum is changing. How about we get wild here and delete every post from URL, Shp, Mili, and them other premies? Just for one week.

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Date: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 05:51:10 (EST) From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Roger eDrek Subject: Or try this... Message:

Let them post, but for one week nobody should read their posts, answer them, challenge them or take any notice of them. If they were left to talk amongst themselves, premie threads would soon start to look like those on CD's ghost-town of a forum. Unless provoking or provoked premies don't seem have a lot to say in cyberspace. Maybe they would then get tired and go somewhere else.

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Date: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 06:09:08 (EST) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Nigel Subject: It wouldn't be the same without them Message:

I think the valuable contributions which these people make are to be applauded. After all, they are trying to save our souls and put us back onto the right path. And all they get is abuse from us. Truly they are selfless. I don't think this place would be the same without them and I think my own new forum for just ex-premies, will never get the traffic or the interest that this one gets. Maybe that forum is doomed? People like confrontation and enjoy watching it unfold here. A bit like the Roman citizens watching the gladiators. Also, because of the input from some of the more arrogant premies, much shit is stirred up and many revelations are brought out into the open which otherwise might have remained untold. Revelations about Maharaji etc.

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Date: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 13:29:35 (EST) From: JW Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: I Agree, Sir Dave Message:

Premies like URL/NIL are doing a wonderful 'service' for helping people get out of their cult. They not only say the most transparently ignorant things, they also prove as a catalyst for bringing out opinions and information that is valuable for people to read.

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Date: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 10:58:15 (EST) From: Joey Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: How about zapping the premie trolls and lets see what that does? Message:

Yes, I agree with you Sir Dave premie contributions are valuable to the forum and for the reasons you suggest. As such SHP, Mili, Mel Bourne, and even URL(Nil) should be welcome when they're posting here as real human beings presenting their take on the subject of Maharaji and Knowledge. Yet I've just surveyed the first 100 posts on this page and there are many other posts, which I would say are far from being honest attempts at communication and are more designed to confuse or obfuscate issues being discussed for non paticipating readers of the forum(lurkers) and to distract attention and dissipate the energy of exes participating here. Posts authored by the likes of 'Bitching', 'Moggiedon', 'who knows', 'The Forum Raiders', 'Sir Boring Bastard' and so on...in other words, premie trolls who are hiding behind their masks of deceptiopn to to mess with exes and the quality of discussion and debate that we're having here. I would therefore agree with Roger that an experiment now might be in order, but NOT in blocking all premie posts, but certainly those authored by premie trolls as I've mentioned. These should be deleted hopefully as soon as they appear and they should be blocked from further posting. The criteria should be the willingness on the part of premies to at least have an honest attempt at honest communication. That is what I'm suggesting. Trolls who only come here to play with people's heads should be zapped as soon as they appear. These kind of posters aren't even presenting themselves as genuine human beings to us, but as deceptive little cyber cartoon characters who are really up to no good and to such an extent that IMO they'll even try to fuck with the recovery of recent exes and attempt to thwart their continued participatiopn here. In the name of free speech, we certainly DON'T have to accept every bit of premie garbage that they flood this forum with.

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Date: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 14:39:40 (EST) From: Roger eDrek Email: None To: Joey Subject: Cconfuse or obfuscate issues, indeed Message:

Indeed, the ferocity with which URL did spin doctoring on everything I wrote was as if he was performing a paid service. Again, we have no opportunity to openly participate on the pro-Maharaji websites to offer balance, but Premies can come here and say whatever. Ultimately, I know that we cannot nor should not block them entirely, but...

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Date: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 17:18:42 (EST) From: Joey Email: None To: Roger eDrek Subject: A matter of drawing lines Message:

URL may indeed be performing a paid service here (I really don't know for a fact) but at least he presents himself as he is, and is very straight up with his bullshit revisionism. In other words, even though I may not like what he has to say...I can more easily engage in a discussion or debate with him having a sense that I'm communicating with someone who's being 'real' with me, even if in URL's case being real, means being a real bullshit revisionist. In the case of the trolls I'm referring to...thats not the case. A flood of these posts appear on the forum with the intent not only to confuse or obfuscate issues, but to psychologically harrass and frustrate exes in their participation on the forum. And I think that's where we should draw the line. URL, is someone who IMO is here for serious discussion and communication even if I don't like what he has to communicate. He is a premie after all. But the trolls are different. Its as if they aren't even real people and yet for some reason , because they leave their garbage on the forum we feel that we have to respond to it. IMO, we shouldn't have to. Alot of that garbage should be removed and those kind of posters blocked. Thats why I suggest we make the distinction and that we zap the trolls, while preserving the right of those premies, who even if we don't like what they have to say, are presenting themselves as real human beings, saying what they really believe, and being as straight up as possible about it. Again, since they're defending something that is essentially so deceitful there's a serious inability for premies NOT to employ some degree of deceipt in their defence of their master. But at a certain point it becomes unbearable for those who have to witness it, such as we do here on this forum, and again, a line has to be drawn. I'd do it with the trolls. Thats my two cents worth on the subject.

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Date: Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 22:51:31 (EST) From: artist Email: None To: Joey Subject: drawing lines Message:

Yes, a little boundries and 'bounceing' at the bar is in order. Let them see that really stupid posts are a waste of thier time. I trust your judgement call. But keep your eye out for a drunken prem rawat ranting on the keyboard. Those are keepers.

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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 14:18:33 (EST) From: URL Email: None To: Marianne Subject: A slightly edited post from below Message:

Marianne You confirm for me one of my impressions of you, of having a strong inclination to fight for the rights of the downtrodden, wherever they may present themselves. And I don't say that with disrespect. I'm sure you derive meaning and satisfaction out of doing this. It's interesting that you say you had a positive experience that didn't offset for you Maharaji's perceived wealth, and the way people were treated. The premie world in the 70s was indeed fraught with a lot of weird peculiarities promulgated by some equally weird people. Now, the weirdest thing to the normal value set is the devotion thing, but that aside the confusion caused by rampant concepts and ignorance of what we were supposed to experience created an environment where insensitivity and even mistreatment did rear it's head. Of course, Abi's situation was not pervasive. A good example of a garden variety insensitivity was a house-father not giving someone the green light to visit family, etc. Or people not being properly socialised. Add to that the incredibly diverse characters that were thrown together who were expected to live and work together. All this created a very interesting world that we lived in day-to-day. But that was not the whole picture and it is wrong to only focus on these more negative aspects. You said yourself that you had a positive experience, so indeed there were other more positive aspects. And those positive aspects revolved around Knowledge itself. When I first got involved, I couldn't relate to Maharaji either, but I gave him the benefit of the doubt and did a lot of meditation, went to satsang every night, and did a little service. I really enjoyed going to the depths of myself that meditation took me. I loved listening to people open up and sincerely share their life with me from their heart... it was indeed inspiring, not to mention it was entertaining, and I always walked away feeling good and having learned something new about myself. And I learned patience and tolerance, which allowed me to live and work with such a diverse spectrum of humanity. (But that patience is sorely tested at ex-premie.org and associated forums.) So for me those positive aspects offset the negative. And it was the positives that kept me from running away, and believe me there were times when I wanted to. Since those days Maharaji has done his best to weed out the bad. He has made a whole lot of changes and he continues to be a catalyst for evolution. The interesting thing is, he is criticised for allowing the bad to exist in the past, and he is criticised for making the changes to weed out the bad. So he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. That's not very fair. It's kinda like cholesterol. You've got HDLs -- the good stuff, and LDLs -- the bad stuff. High cholesterol is not the big problem if the ratio of the good stuff to the bad stuff is balanced. As long as the good offsets the bad, you're ok. That has been the case with Knowledge for me. So when the good stuff withers to the point where the bad stuff dominates, you've got a problem. In my opinion this is what happened to most ex-premies. Their experience took a dip and they were suddenly surrounded by all the bad with nothing to offset it. I know this is too simplistic for most exes to stomach but I think it's accurate. As for his so-called wealth, that's a whole other topic. I look at wealth as a glacier on the top of a mountain. In times of extreme drought its nice to have a glacier to feed water to your valley so you can continue to grow your crops. Maharaji takes his commitment to spread Knowledge dead seriously... there is no question in my mind about that. I say he has consciously built his farm in a glacier fed valley so that he will not fail due to lack of water. Because one day the drought will come again, as it has in the past, and hopefully the lack of money won't stand in the way of continuing with his life's work. I call his proximity to the glacier commitment. He didn't charge you or me for Knowledge. He didn't get it illegally. As for contributions he said, 'Only if you want to'. And premies responded hopefully because they believed in what he was doing... or for some they did once upon a time

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Date: Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 04:07:01 (EST) From: Roger eDrek Email: None To: URL Subject: A kinder gentler World of Knowledge? Message:

I'm not so sure about that one. As a Recent Ex-Premie™ I found that the cleaned up simplified World of Knowledge to be a sterile secretive one where premies were so concerned that they follow Maharaji's orders down to the 'T' that there is no spontaneity nor human-like qualities remaining. After all, we've got HiTech Maharaji demanding that his shows start at the precise atomic clock synched second. Where at local video events there are more people doing service (ushers, security, video technician, person-in-charge, information table person, contribution table person, bathroom attendants, etc.) than people simply showing up to view an inspirational video of the Master. It's embarrassing. It's formidable. And there is the whole hidden revisionist stuff that Maharaji is now just the normal ordinary and mortal Master (can't they come up with a less intimidating title?) when really, really in the hearts and minds of premies Maharaji is still the Lord of the Universe. When the Master says that premies should not travel hundreds and thousands of miles once or twice a year and want to socialize with their old friends. Rather they should focus soley upon Him. More honest spontaneity stifled. When music and singing are no longer live, but recorded and lip-synched like a cheap Hollywood musical. When the really big show is just that and becomes very predictable from year to year. Wait, the 1999 Hans Jayanti had a new twist, didn't it? Good, Visions International will sell more product to the eager premies who, somehow, could not afford to travel to India. No, Maharaji, the catalyst for evolution, is driving his Greatest Show on Earth to a very boring, over hyped, laser lit, flash pot, smoke machine, dueling banjos bland Hollywood production. Why? Because he is trying to sell his message.

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Date: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 01:06:45 (EST) From: chr Email: None To: URL Subject: Re: A slightly edited post from below Message:

Housefathers weren't the only ones who stopped people seeing families-M did it too. He also called premies to him to do extensive service, especially in the late 70s, leaving their families behind, sometimes permanently. I am talking about people I knew personally and whose situations M knew of personally. As for his wealth, it verged on the obscene. There were warehouses built to store the overflow. When M came to cities, he cleaned out the coffers-quite often the money was spent for the sake of spending-it seemed like an addiction. In one place he insisted on buying a kangaroo skin coat and premies were out searching for days trying to find one. The 707 saga was a sad case of squandering millions-not only in $, but in premies'time and lives. He hardly used it and then wanted to update it. Times have been financially hard of late for M's business. Do you think he's downgrading his lifestyle? From what I can gather it's the opposite-especially if you look at his latest residences. Basically he just does a financial drive amongst the devoted and cancels tours when the cash is low.

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Date: Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 06:25:41 (EST) From: J.D Email: None To: chr Subject: Re: A slightly edited post from below Message:

You would lots about the Cash Flow wouldn't you my lawyer friend. Why did you leave?

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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 23:53:40 (EST) From: JW Email: None To: URL Subject: Oh....My....God....Such and Ignorant Post, URL Message:

I know you were writing to Marianne, but your post is just about the most stupid, illogical piece of crap I have ever read. You said: "The premie world in the 70s was indeed fraught with a lot of weird peculiarities promulgated by some equally weird people. " Yes, and the name of the MAIN person for promulgated these things is Guru Maharaj Ji, who has now changed his name to Maharaji. You make it sound like the premies just made that stuff up. Nothing could be further from the truth. It was Maharaji who said all that stuff; the premies just picked it up and repeated it. Then you said: "Now, the weirdest thing to the normal value set is the devotion thing, but that aside the confusion caused by rampant concepts and ignorance of what we were supposed to experience created an environment where insensitivity and even mistreatment did rear it's head." First of all that sentence doesn't make any sense. And yes, that "devotion thing" was kind of weird, but then Maharaji didn't seem to think so, he talked about it at every opportunity and demanded it of his followers. This was not some kind of cultural misunderstanding. It was clear as a bell. According to Maharaji, a follower was to devote his or her life 100% to him, to surrender to him 100%, mind, body and soul. The fact that he has apprently seen the error of his ways and no longer says that, is beside the point. He still has never explained what the fuck all that was about, especially to those who were damaged because of his actions. Sure, some of the premies in leadership positions were insensitive, even sadistic, but the blatant insensitivity and uncarring of Maharaji himself is leaps and bounds above anything a premie did. Then you said: "Of course, Abi's situation was not pervasive. " Well, first, how do you know? And secondly, Jagdeo's sexual molestations of children seems to have been QUITE pervasive. Are you suggesting that because it wasn't a "normal" occurence in the cult, that the cult didn't create the situation in which Jagdeo could operate? And are you suggesting that Maharaji's failure to do anything about it, when he clearly knew about it, is mitigated because child molestation didn't happen all that often? Come on, URL. People are not as stupid as you think. And maybe you had a good time and had a nice experience. Good for you. But so what? Then you said: "So for me those positive aspects offset the negative." Again, good for you. Perhaps you should understand that not everyone feels that way. That's the point of this website, because in the controlled, censored, premie and Maharaji sites, you will never hear about the people who don't think knowledge worked for them and, in fact, feel their involvement in Maharaji's cult was, on balance, a negative experience. You see that as just perception, but others see it as reality. Then you said something REALLY ignorant: "Since those days Maharaji has done his best to weed out the bad. He has made a whole lot of changes and he continues to be a catalyst for evolution." So, you are admitting that "devotion" was bad, that ashrams were "bad," that the Lord of the Universe was bad, that a multitude of things Maharaji said and did were "bad." Well, if you can admit that, why can't Maharaji? Why doesn't he explain himself and take responsiblity? URL, what motivated the "change?" I would also suggest that not all that much has changed, other than some of the words, and yes, there aren't ashrams anymore. But what about the people who wasted years living there, in something you admit was a mistake, but Maharaji won't even admit that? Another ignorant statement: "The interesting thing is, he is criticised for allowing the bad to exist in the past, and he is criticised for making the changes to weed out the bad. So he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. That's not very fair." I have never heard anyone criticize M for making any "changes." The criticism is that he won't take responsbility for what he did, something that you would expect of any adult human being, let alone someone who claimed to be the "master" of thousands of people, and who claimed to be god and who asked that people dedicate their lives to him. He has a lot to answer for, to the people who got caught up in his little game, and he is too chickenshit, egotistical, or out of touch to do so. If you like knowledge, good for you. To me, "knowledge" is just a kind of meditation. That's all it is. Everything else associated with it is a belief system. That's all it is. Meditation can be nice for some people, and some people don't need it. The belief system is something NOBODY needs. I also think your comparision of Maharaji to levels of cholesteral is kind of hysterical, and is damning by faint praise. What a pitiful way to advocate knowledge. I can just see it: "Knowledge, it isn't so bad" Or, "The good stuff marginally outweighs the bad." My, how far the mighty have fallen. The following statement is pure mental diarrhea: "As for his so-called wealth, that's a whole other topic. I look at wealth as a glacier on the top of a mountain." His obscene wealth is obvious. It is not "so-called." More diarrhea: "In times of extreme drought its nice to have a glacier to feed water to your valley so you can continue to grow your crops. Maharaji takes his commitment to spread Knowledge dead seriously... there is no question in my mind about that. I say he has consciously built his farm in a glacier fed valley so that he will not fail due to lack of water. Because one day the drought will come again, as it has in the past, and hopefully the lack of money won't stand in the way of continuing with his life's work. " Hey, guys, Maharaji is just saving up for a rainy day. That's why he has gold toilets and fleets of Rolls Royces. Gee, that makes LOTS of sense, URL. Any intelligent person would certainly understand that he is only saving up to spread knoweldge in the future. Yeah, right. You are a very sad person, URL. I actually feel sorry for you.

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Date: Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 17:13:15 (EST) From: Susan Email: None To: JW Subject: Great post JW! Message:

I had many of the same thoughts when I read the post but I was fatigued with the pointlessness of posting with URL, however civil our exchange might have been. That glacier thing, though, all I could think is thank goodness for the depleting ozone layer!

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Date: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 02:36:01 (EST) From: Roger eDrek Email: None To: JW Subject: ***Best of Fourm*** (take a break, URL) Message:

Oh, my gawd! Finally, checkmate against URL the Pearl. URL, baby, you've pretty much shot your wad for this month, don't ya think? I rarely pay attention to you and now I see why. You are just too, too much, man. You got any hobbies or anything that could distract you from the Forum? American Football? Hockey? (has that started yet?) Or is this your job? Do they pay you to try to counter what we say? Anyway, thanks JW for doing the job on URL's big post there. I couldn't even bring myself to read it, much less consider a counter argument. URL, you are a real crafty fellow and I'd bet that amongst the unsuspecting and the weak willed you have many followers.

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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 22:02:13 (EST) From: JHB Email: None To: URL Subject: M's investments Message:

I haven't read such a detailed defence of M's wealth before. So when the donations dry up he will sell his house, move somewhere else, and use the money for propagation? Wouldn't it have been better to live somewhere more modest and put the money in some safe investment so that it would be more convertible? John the invester. PS. Meditation can have a good effect for many people. That's got nothing to do with M.

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Date: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 11:32:08 (EST) From: Ben Not Lurking Much Anymore Email: None To: JHB Subject: Re: M's investments Message:

Lets not forget most non-profits try to put money aside for a rainy day so they can continue to operate

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Date: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 12:04:41 (EST) From: Joey Email: None To: Ben Not Lurking Much Anymore Subject: Re: M's investments Message:

Hey, what happened to 'Ben Lurking'. Are you him or are you someone else just messing around with his posting name? Just curious. In any case. IMO, the money that m is putting aside isn't as you say so he can 'operate', or be that 'teacher and master and something more' to those who are willing to follow him. Thats secondary to maintaining his wealth which is his main priority. If 'operating' was his main priority as you suggest, he certainly wouldn't have been so adamant in maintaining his Sultan of Brunei lifestyle over the years. Nope, the spreading of knowledge, m being a teacher and a master... its all the deceptive pretext for m to rationalize and justify his existence. Specifically,the existence of his cult.

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Date: Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 08:13:29 (EST) From: Sir Dave Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk'>david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk To: Mel Bourne Subject: Re: 'Revisionism' - just an ex slogan? Message:

Dear Melbourne; I am amazed that people want to be premies these days. It was easier when Maharaji was the Lord of the Universe and when there were satsang meetings etc with other ordinary premies. You see, I never really cared to listen to Maharaji that much and evening satsang with other premies was preferable to watching a Maharaji video, for me anyway. I remained a premie from 1972 to 1983 because I truly was convinced that Maharaji was the Lord. Sure I'd had some experiences from meditation. But it was 'The Mission' and all the people in it together with satsang which kept me being an active premie. If I'd known back in the early seventies that Maharaji wasn't the Lord, I would have carried on doing meditation but wouldn't have got involved with Divine Light Mission and my 'Lord' would have been God and not a fat Indian man. These days I don't feel the need to be an ex-premie or anything. I'm just me and I'm sure that if I met the people here there would be some premies I'd like and dislike and some ex-premies I'd like and dislike, because the pigeon holes of premie and ex-premie are not real anyway.

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Date: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 16:37:14 (EST) From: Marianne Email: None To: ALL Subject: Thanks guys & URL too, believe it or not Message:

Thanks guys for defending my honor, if in a round about way. I have to tell you, URL, the person who knows me the best here is JW. We've met and talked many times -- I think it's safe to say that he and I see the world, and M's world, in nearly identical ways. In any event, I have revised my view of you, URL. The more you tell me about yourself -- real information, as opposed to debating -- the more I have a view into who you appear to be, given the medium in which we're communicating. I see your love of M, and your defense of him, as the eternal hope to gain the love of the parent or caregiver who abused you. If that is true, then I understand why you are so passionate in his defense and why the forum is such an outrage to you at times. I no longer feel irritated with you. I thank you for sharing some personal information with us because it has allowed me to have a better grasp of what I suspect is going on with you. I feel compassion for you, just like I do for myself and everyone else who got caught up in this mess. Now you may want me to toss that compassion into the Pacific Ocean for all you care, but it is truly how I feel. Not sorry for you -- just compassion. That's it. URL, when I was involved with M, the money issue was not as extreme. I left in '76 when he started to accumulate the property in Malibu and all the cars. It was the money that changed my mind about him. I quit because it wasn't what I signed up for, and because I thought, and think, that M's accumulation of great wealth in the face of the suffering in this world was an affront to his claim that he would bring peace to the world. So your comment in these threads that the money thing didn't seem to bother me when I was practicing is incorrect. It did. That's what my Journey says. One of Abi's posts put it best for me. She told how her mother made a 'hidy house' (what a great description for a kids' playhouse!) for M's kids. She said it was beautiful and that her mom worked hours on it. But, Abi and her brothers did not get this same kind of attention because there was definite pressure to do service for M and his family rather than to care for one's own family. The idea that M, Marolyn and their kids have lived this 'Sultan of Brunei' existence (kudos, Joey)while premie families struggled for food, shelter, education, etc. turns my stomach. Why is his whole family entitled to this existence? What have they done to deserve it? URL, I gave some money willingly to M and DLM. But I also gave money because of the subtle threat that not donating and taking care of my own needs was selfish. Many a dollar was obtained in that fashion. I suspect, although I cannot say with any legal certainty, that money was also generated through improper means. That is something the FBI and IRS are going to have to sort out. This is the end of our conversation, URL. If there is someone in your life with whom you share a close relationship, and whom you feel is deeply compassionate, I'd spend a good deal of time with that person talking about your life. Whether it's a premie or not doesn't matter. I think it might be good for you and good for your heart. I thank you for your candor and wish that you would be so fearless as to identify yourself for us and tell us what you do in the world. Marianne

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Date: Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 19:24:03 (EST) From: Susan Email: None To: Marianne Subject: great post Marianne! (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 17:43:05 (EST) From: Joey Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Great post Marianne! Message:

Brilliant post Marianne! Just shows what a couple days off can do! BTW, you should know that in reference to your kudos to me; The idea that M, Marolyn and their kids have lived this 'Sultan of Brunei' existence (kudos, Joey)while premie families struggled... The 'Sultan of Brunei' description of m and his lifestyle is something that I've borrowed from JW and given him credit for at least a couple of times. My apologies to JW for not giving him the credit this time...it's as if I feel the term is so effective it should really belong to the common lexicon of all exes. So the kudos should go to JW...and to yourself for a great post.

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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 14:04:32 (EST) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: All Subject: A new retreat for weary soldiers Message:

And NO premies are allowed and they will be evicted straight away if they post there. Just click here to go straight to the haven for ex-premies. There won't be any premies there, only cool Maid Marion type damsels and old comrades in arms. So put down that lance, take off that heavy armour and relax!

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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 17:51:49 (EST) From: Bitching Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Re: A new retreat for weary soldiers Message:

It won't work. Without premies to vent at, the X's will turn on themselves or just get bored. There's a few here who use this place as a focus for their anger, and if their not bitching here, they will be bitching somewhere else about something else.

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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 19:10:36 (EST) From: Sir Dave Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk To: Bitching Subject: Re: A new retreat for weary soldiers Message:

You do have a valid point there. Personally for me, it's when I get riled that I tend to want to post although these days I'm not too interested in the Maharaji trip. That's why I started The ANYTHING GOES forum. It seems to me though, that some ex-premies are obsessed with Maharaji and don't really want to talk about anything else. I can understand that but these days I don't feel that way. I had my obsessive anti Maharaji period in the last two years. I can't keep that up. There is a real need for some people to talk about what they've been through without having to fend off attacks by self rightous premies who (arrogantly and naively) think they know best. I have watched some people here get very annoyed with some premies and it seems such a waste of time to deal with them, unless you specifically want a fight that is. Katie's forum which I've never seen, is particularly aimed at new ex-premies. Mine is for anyone. Premies can lurk there but they shouldn't post and if the various incarnations of Rob and the Oz Red-necks want to test the waters, they're welcome to try. But I will be brutal with them. (Musing) It's strange how I've set up web sites; I never intended to but have done so because there have been empty spaces which I knew how to fill. It's not difficult to do...

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Date: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 18:15:05 (EST) From: URL Email: None To: Bitching Subject: My fellow brothers in arms... Message:

Hey, maybe the author of this post is right and we just help perpetuate this vat of confusion. Maybe we should all leave?

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Date: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 22:36:00 (EST) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: URL Subject: Re: My fellow brothers in arms... Message:

URL, Your thought has occured to me. I used to naively think that my posts here would make a difference. Now I don't. I just like to dial up now and then, throw out a Rumi or Bible quote, maybe a little Buddha, and just watch the thoughts fly over their heads. It's just fun for me now. No, you are not going to win many converts here, to K or M. We should just be glad they let us participate. Dep

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Date: Mon, Nov 08, 1999 at 13:41:59 (EST) From: URL Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Re: My fellow brothers in arms... Message:

No we are not going to win many converts that's true... don't know that that's what I'm personally trying to do. It is clear to me lately that it is an extreme waste of time hanging out here and not very healthy personally... mostly because it becomes all consuming. It was great seeing him on the weekend... it simplified once again for me where my energy needs to go. The thing we all have to look at is, yes it's fun debating with the hard-core elements here... kinda like taking on jehova's witnesses for sport... but it's a waste of consciousness. I left the video on Sunday and turned the radio on in my car and started listening to the news, about this bombing, and that scandle, and another killing, and it really struck me... why do we hear this stuff? Besides the facination with the macabre, it's because we think that somehow it's important to hear it so we can all work toward solutions. It was clear as I listened that that's not possible, and turned it off in favor of feeling good. In a similar way, I will do the same with the forum. I mean, when Marianne... bless her heart... offers me compassion after her arm-chair psycho-analysis of me I really have to roll my eyes. These guys aren't worth my precious time. I realise once again that time is precious and it needs to go somewhere more a bit significant than here. So you guys carry on for as long as you need to. But do consider that you may be feeding into their trip. It's clear that Maharaji doesn't need anyone to defend him from these misguided souls. He is taking another step and it's obvious his vision is on a global scale. The victories the folks here claim amongst themselves are pretty meaningless in the grand scheme of things... a tempest in a very small teapot. I suggest we give them ample opportunity to turn their malice on themselves.

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Date: Tues, Nov 09, 1999 at 17:01:46 (EST) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: URL Subject: Re: My fellow brothers in arms... Message:

URL, Great note! You definitely know where you're from. And you are right about the news. It's hard to believe that most people actually think that the news is reality. Incredible! I'll carry on here for as long as I need to, then I too will hit the road.

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