Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Wed, Jan 19, 2000 at 08:16:52 (GMT)
From: Dec 31, 1999 To: Jan 15, 2000 Page: 4 Of: 5


JW -:- Mormons -- Joseph Smith -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 23:36:54 (GMT)
__ Deputy Dog -:- Disgruntled ex-members? -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 04:12:09 (GMT)
__ __ Shifting -:- Disgruntled ex-members? -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 18:27:12 (GMT)
__ __ JW -:- Think about it Dog -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 15:11:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Thanks JW -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 18:05:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Knowledge -:- Thurs, Jan 06, 2000 at 13:12:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Knowledge -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 05:34:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Sex, Drugs and TV for all. -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 10:03:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Sex, Drugs and TV sometimes -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 14:59:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Sex, Drugs and TV sometimes -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 16:05:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Sex, Drugs, and TV? -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 21:53:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- One Question -:- Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 12:36:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Two Answers -:- Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 18:55:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Christopher -:- ... many beliefs. -:- Mon, Jan 10, 2000 at 19:59:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Carol the comrade -:- ... many beliefs. -:- Mon, Jan 10, 2000 at 21:38:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- Thanks JW -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 20:06:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JW -:- Thanks JW -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 19:30:05 (GMT)
__ __ Ben Lurking -:- Disgruntled ex-members? -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 04:47:36 (GMT)
__ Robyn -:- Mormons -- Joseph Smith -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 03:14:59 (GMT)
__ __ gerry -:- Mormons -- Joseph Smith -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 04:47:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ Way -:- Mormons -- Joseph Smith -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 15:38:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JW -:- Mormons -- Joseph Smith -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 18:18:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Also -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 19:35:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Way -:- Also -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 20:28:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Also -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 22:19:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Also -:- Thurs, Jan 06, 2000 at 00:53:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Also -:- Thurs, Jan 06, 2000 at 03:11:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- You want the dirt? I got it! -:- Thurs, Jan 06, 2000 at 11:23:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Way -:- You want the dirt? I got it! -:- Thurs, Jan 06, 2000 at 15:54:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- You want the dirt? I got it! -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 00:37:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- The Crotch! -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 08:21:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- The Crotch! -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 09:09:57 (GMT)

bezelbub -:- Lord of Coke -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 19:18:10 (GMT)
__ ij -:- Lord of Coke -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 18:27:17 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Milky -:- Thurs, Jan 06, 2000 at 13:19:45 (GMT)

Christopher -:- Time of the seasons? -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 18:48:48 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- Time of the seasons? -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 07:27:08 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- GMT v EST -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 20:24:30 (GMT)
__ __ Robyn -:- GMT v EST -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 20:56:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- No maths required. -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 13:57:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Robyn -:- No maths required. -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 14:09:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Olive Oil -:- Thurs, Jan 06, 2000 at 13:24:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Olive Oil -:- Thurs, Jan 06, 2000 at 17:32:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Olive Oil -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 10:08:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Olive Oil -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 13:47:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Viva Italia -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 16:11:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ Christopher -:- GMT v EST -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 21:06:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Robyn -:- GMT v EST -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 03:07:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Christopher -:- GMT v EST -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 18:51:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- GMT v EST -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 22:23:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Michael -:- GMT v EST -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 05:40:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Cool People -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 14:01:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Michael -:- Cool People -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 18:14:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- I get it now. -:- Thurs, Jan 06, 2000 at 13:28:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Michael -:- I get it now. -:- Thurs, Jan 06, 2000 at 14:13:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- GMT v EST -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 10:25:04 (GMT)
__ __ Chris -:- whatever -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 20:54:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- whatever -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 07:41:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ Christopher -:- whatever revisited -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 21:00:58 (GMT)

Scott T. -:- blasphemy and hallucination -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 17:37:08 (GMT)
__ Des Perado -:- blasphemy and hallucination -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 12:58:27 (GMT)
__ Wesley -:- blasphemy and hallucination -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 22:19:02 (GMT)
__ JW -:- 2000 v. 1996 -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 18:37:52 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- 2000 v. 1996 -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 19:05:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ JW -:- 2000 v. 1996 -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 23:48:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- 2000 v. 1996 -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 06:11:23 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- The Romans -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 17:51:09 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- The Romans -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 19:08:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- First Christians -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 20:13:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- First Christians -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 22:02:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Romans again -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 14:06:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- First Christians -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 22:07:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Catholic Anti-Semitism -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 23:55:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Catholic Anti-Semitism -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 14:15:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Catholic Anti-Semitism -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 14:29:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Catholic Anti-Semitism -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 15:31:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Catholic Church Positions -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 18:45:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Power and the Church. -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 14:54:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Catholic Anti-Semitism -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 06:50:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Michael -:- Catholic Anti-Semitism -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 04:59:38 (GMT)
__ __ Perry Mason -:- The Romans -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 18:47:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Yeah but... -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 20:14:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Perry Mason -:- Yeah but... -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 21:50:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- The Romans -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 19:02:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Perry Mason -:- The Romans -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 23:51:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- English and Latin -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 14:24:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- The Romans -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 06:23:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Come on, Perry -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 01:52:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Michael -:- The Romans -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 20:33:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Romano-Christians -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 14:27:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Romano-Christians -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 16:21:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Michael -:- Romano-Christians -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 18:05:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Romano-Christians -:- Thurs, Jan 06, 2000 at 13:33:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- The Romans -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 22:08:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Michael -:- The Romans -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 05:12:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- The Romans -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 06:35:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- The Romans -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 20:54:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ bb -:- The Romans -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 02:23:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- The Romans -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 04:37:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- The Romans -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 02:35:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Michael -:- The Romans -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 21:00:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- The Romans -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 21:15:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Christopher -:- The Romans -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 21:28:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- The Romans -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 21:58:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ christopher -:- Alvin Boyd Kuhn -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 18:35:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Alvin Boyd Kuhn -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 20:22:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Christopher -:- Hoots? -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 20:39:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Hoots? -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 21:07:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- The Romans -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 07:08:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- The Romans -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 07:38:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- The Romans -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 16:15:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- The Romans -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 16:47:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- The Romans -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 17:33:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Thanks (nt) -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 17:44:06 (GMT)

Roger eDrek -:- Kludge it with Proxomitron -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 08:06:31 (GMT)
__ Coach -:- Kludge it with Proxomitron -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 16:32:58 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Wire brush and Dettol. -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 17:53:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ Coach -:- Wire brush and Dettol. -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 18:10:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Wire brush and Dettol. -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 20:27:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Coach -:- Wire brush and Dettol. -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 20:40:49 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek -:- Correct link to get F5 Config -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 08:54:09 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek -:- Minor Correction - Nope BUG! -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 08:47:58 (GMT)
__ __ Roger eDrek -:- Probably a feature, but... -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 09:53:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Probably a feature, but... -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 13:03:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Probably a feature, but... -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 14:15:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- I'd never offend Drek -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 14:32:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- I'd never offend Drek -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 16:13:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Hmmmm... -:- Thurs, Jan 06, 2000 at 14:13:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Hmmmm... -:- Thurs, Jan 06, 2000 at 16:49:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Phew...(nt) -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 10:11:38 (GMT)

Michael -:- Forum V -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 03:41:22 (GMT)
__ Deputy Dog -:- Forum V -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 04:21:00 (GMT)
__ __ Michael -:- Forum V -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 05:14:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Forum V -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 05:27:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Michael -:- Forum V -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 05:30:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Christopher -:- Dog or Droopy? -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 19:17:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Dog! -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 20:14:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Wrong Dog! -:- Thurs, Jan 06, 2000 at 14:25:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Wrong Dog! -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 04:04:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- No Problem Dog! -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 10:14:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- No Problem AJ! -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 15:07:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Christopher -:- Definitely no hero -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 20:27:24 (GMT)
__ Gerry -:- Guess what's for dinner -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 05:00:48 (GMT)
__ __ Michael -:- Guess what's for dinner -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 14:02:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ Gerry -:- Guess what's for dinner -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 15:22:14 (GMT)

video dude -:- hamster alert -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 00:51:42 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- The hamster doesn't listen! -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 09:20:27 (GMT)
__ __ Roger eDrek -:- The hamster doesnt listen -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 10:26:35 (GMT)
__ Sir David -:- hamster alert -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 01:47:27 (GMT)
__ __ Roger eDrek -:- The time at the tone is... -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 05:58:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- The time at the tone is... -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 16:35:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Mr Wizard -:- who invented what -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 18:12:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ Michael -:- The time at the tone is... -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 05:25:31 (GMT)

michael -:- anything can happen -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 00:43:39 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Spritual Claptrap (nt) -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 12:48:16 (GMT)
__ __ michael -:- Claptrap happens -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 01:54:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Where's my pistol? -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 14:51:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ carol the crazed -:- Put it back in your pocket! -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 19:04:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Put it back in your pocket! -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 10:24:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ michael -:- Where's my pistol? -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 16:51:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Where's my pistol? -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 10:29:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ michael -:- Where's my pistol? -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 15:24:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ carol the counciliatory -:- Well said, me too, my friend -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 19:18:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Where's my pistol? -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 15:38:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ AJM -:- Where's my Goebbels? -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 10:38:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Des Perado -:- Gone Fishin' -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 23:08:33 (GMT)

Helen -:- Galaxy Quest (ot) -:- Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 22:29:36 (GMT)
__ Tom Servo in Ireland -OT -:- Galaxy Quest (ot) -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 14:41:51 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- TOM SERVO -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 23:42:10 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Murphys' Quest (ot) -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 18:08:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ Marianne -:- Murphys' Quest (ot) -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 13:16:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Murphys' Quest -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 15:04:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ Monmot -:- Murphys' Quest (ot) -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 18:13:44 (GMT)
__ __ Robyn -:- Galaxy Quest (ot) -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 15:57:34 (GMT)
__ Michael aka Mickey the P -:- Galaxy Quest (ot) -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 03:32:15 (GMT)
__ michael -:- 'The show must go on' -:- Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 23:29:44 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- 'The show must go on' -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 03:48:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ michael -:- St. Michael...the demented -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 02:03:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Helen, ain't no saint -:- St. Michael...the demented -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 03:17:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ carol -:- and don't forget...... -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 08:49:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Sainthood -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 22:34:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ michael -:- or was that the DEMENTED St... -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 05:14:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- or was that the DEMENTED St... -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 16:18:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bobby the Pharisee -:- 'The show must go on' -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 04:11:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ carol -:- Bobby!! mindspring Bobby?? -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 08:53:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Robyn the Pharisee -:- 'The show must go on' -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 04:32:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Bobby the alien -:- 'The show must go on' -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 04:38:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- 'The show must go on' -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 04:54:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- midnight madness -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 05:16:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Michael -:- 'The show must go on' -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 04:17:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Bobby -:- 'The show must go on' -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 04:33:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mickey the Pharisee -:- 'The show must go on' -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 04:00:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ carol -:- Way to go Michael! no text -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 08:56:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ michael -:- 'The show must go on' -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 02:12:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ carol -:- Source-ery (not witchcraft) -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 09:00:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Bobby -:- 'The show must go on' -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 05:03:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ carol -:- I know now.Happy Happy Joy Joy -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 09:48:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ bobby -:- I know now.Happy Happy Joy Joy -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 15:58:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ carol the crazed -:- one more post before I go -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 19:23:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ michael -:- back to the source me lads -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 05:33:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Helen -:- 'The snow must log on' -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 05:20:57 (GMT)

Wadi Sue -:- What is wrong with you people? -:- Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 17:46:05 (GMT)
__ 'Jim' -:- What is wrong with you people? -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 20:58:54 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- False Names -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 15:13:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- False Names -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 18:42:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Des Perado -:- False Names -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 13:23:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Michael -:- False Names -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 14:13:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Des Perado -:- False Names -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 22:54:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Michael -:- False Names -:- Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 02:27:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Jim Change your name please. -:- Thurs, Jan 06, 2000 at 13:40:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim aka Tor -:- Jim Change your name please. -:- Thurs, Jan 06, 2000 at 18:04:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Thanks Jimaka -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 10:56:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- False Names -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 20:24:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- False Names -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 22:53:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Jim - a thought! -:- Thurs, Jan 06, 2000 at 03:25:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Rings True to Me Dog. -:- Thurs, Jan 06, 2000 at 13:56:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim aka Tor -:- Rings True to Me Dog. -:- Thurs, Jan 06, 2000 at 18:00:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- What am I, chopped liver? (nt) -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 15:12:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Franny -:- Who is Wadi Sue? nt -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 19:25:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Who is Wadi Sue? nt -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 22:56:10 (GMT)
__ __ Pauline Premie -:- So True -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 22:01:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- So True -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 04:12:05 (GMT)
__ Cecil B. DeMille -:- Ready for your close-up, Norma -:- Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 20:46:45 (GMT)
__ Daya -:- Don't be such a bitch, Wadi -:- Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 20:15:46 (GMT)

la-ex -:- public programs? -:- Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 05:30:24 (GMT)
__ DV -:- public programs? -:- Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 22:28:57 (GMT)
__ __ Perry Mason -:- public programs? -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 18:44:08 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Leafleting. -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 12:52:39 (GMT)
__ JW -:- public programs? -:- Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 15:35:27 (GMT)
__ The Goober -:- public programs? -:- Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 14:45:52 (GMT)
__ __ Pauline Premie -:- public programs? -:- Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 17:29:33 (GMT)
__ __ Susan -:- Gooberaji great post ki jai nt -:- Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 16:01:10 (GMT)

Ben Lurking -:- Tim Galloway -CULT? Inner Game -:- Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 02:32:55 (GMT)
__ Paul -:- Tim Galloway -CULT? Inner Game -:- Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 20:32:04 (GMT)
__ __ CD -:- Tim Galloway -CULT? Inner Game -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 00:00:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ Susan -:- Gallwey? (nt) -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 04:02:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- Tim Galloway -CULT? Inner Game -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 00:07:15 (GMT)
__ JW -:- Tim Galloway -CULT? Inner Game -:- Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 15:24:09 (GMT)
__ __ CD -:- Inner Game premise -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 00:15:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ JW -:- Inner Game premise -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 18:18:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Make $$$ for CD premise -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 09:50:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ CD -:- Thanks -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 12:22:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- Inner game of wall -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 01:32:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- Hey Chris, whadaya think?? -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 01:27:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ CD -:- A guess -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 10:22:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ bb -:- A guess -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 14:01:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ CD -:- A guess -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 14:25:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ bb -:- A guess -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 19:32:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- How about a wager? -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 10:51:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ CD -:- How about explaining this? -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 11:04:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- I can do that -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 11:52:45 (GMT)
__ Runamok -:- Inner Game of $$$$$ -:- Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 07:06:08 (GMT)

Robyn -:- To Michael,the priest formerly -:- Sun, Jan 02, 2000 at 19:58:20 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- You must be dancing to... -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 17:56:55 (GMT)
__ __ Robyn -:- You must be dancing to... -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 18:13:56 (GMT)
__ Michael -:- To Michael,the priest formerly -:- Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 01:22:51 (GMT)

Susan -:- cult phobias -:- Sun, Jan 02, 2000 at 17:55:37 (GMT)
__ Deputy Dog -:- cult phobias -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 02:56:17 (GMT)
__ __ Christopher -:- cult phobias -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 18:58:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- cult phobias -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 19:51:40 (GMT)
__ Helen -:- My antennae are up -:- Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 03:20:28 (GMT)
__ __ Susan -:- to helen and JW -:- Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 03:37:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ Robyn -:- to helen and JW -:- Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 13:09:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Helen -:- to Robyn & Susan -:- Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 22:04:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- to Robyn & Susan -:- Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 22:29:10 (GMT)
__ JW -:- cult phobias -:- Sun, Jan 02, 2000 at 20:46:34 (GMT)
__ __ JW -:- Nitrous Oxide -:- Sun, Jan 02, 2000 at 20:51:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ Robyn -:- Nitrous Oxide -:- Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 13:04:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ Susan -:- Nitrous Oxide you are right(OT -:- Sun, Jan 02, 2000 at 21:48:16 (GMT)
__ ij -:- cult phobias -:- Sun, Jan 02, 2000 at 20:22:53 (GMT)
__ __ Robyn -:- cult phobias -:- Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 13:14:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ ij -:- cult phobias -:- Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 15:44:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Susan -:- cult phobias -:- Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 15:57:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Susan -:- Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 22:32:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ The fairy princess Helen -:- cult phobias -:- Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 22:16:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Helen, LOL! -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 00:31:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ ij -:- Helen, LOL! -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 11:37:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- thanks -:- Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 22:48:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ ij -:- thanks -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 11:15:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- no big deal IJ -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 17:56:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Katie, RObyn, Susan -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 03:31:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- fee fi fo fum... -:- Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 23:34:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- fee fi fo fum... -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 01:35:38 (GMT)
__ __ The Tourist -:- British Teeth -:- Sun, Jan 02, 2000 at 21:18:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ ij -:- British Teeth -:- Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 15:25:21 (GMT)
__ eb -:- cult phobias -:- Sun, Jan 02, 2000 at 18:07:55 (GMT)
__ __ Runamok -:- cult phobias and meditating -:- Sun, Jan 02, 2000 at 18:51:14 (GMT)
__ __ gerry -:- cult phobias -:- Sun, Jan 02, 2000 at 18:30:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ Powerman -:- cult phobias -:- Sun, Jan 02, 2000 at 19:24:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- cult phobias -:- Sun, Jan 02, 2000 at 20:10:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Hypnomadness -:- Sun, Jan 02, 2000 at 20:27:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ eb -:- Hypnomadness -:- Sun, Jan 02, 2000 at 20:38:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Now eb, THAT is impressive... -:- Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 03:22:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Now eb, THAT is impressive... -:- Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 22:27:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ bobby -:- Now eb, THAT is impressive... -:- Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 23:17:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Bobby, LOL AGAIN! -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 00:34:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ eb -:- Sex With Aliens -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 05:49:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bobby the alien lover -:- Sex With Aliens -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 12:53:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ eb -:- Sex With Aliens -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 16:55:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Sex With Aliens -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 12:28:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bobby -:- Bobby, LOL AGAIN! -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 02:13:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Bobby, LOL AGAIN! -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 03:46:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bobby -:- Bobby, LOL AGAIN! -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 04:24:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- PMS ZEN BEAT POET -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 05:12:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bobby -:- PMS ZEN BEAT POET -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 12:46:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Thanks, Bobby (nt) -:- Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 03:19:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Bobby, LOL AGAIN! -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 02:23:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bobby -:- Bobby, LOL AGAIN! -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 04:28:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Christopher -:- Streiber - loud & clear -:- Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 18:33:30 (GMT)


Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 23:36:54 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Mormons -- Joseph Smith
Message:
PBS is running this 'American Experience' program about the founder of the Mormon Church, Joseph Smith. It is fascinating. Some of the stuff I knew about. I used to live accross the river from Nauvoo, Illinois, where the Mormons built a city and a temple around 1840. I think that's also where Joseph Smith was killed.

Anyhow, I definitely got the impression that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints started out as a charismatic cult, with Joseph Smith as the leader. He supposedly had many visions, in which Jesus Christ, god the father, and other beings appeared to him and told him what to do. There is also the mythical book printed on gold plates, with writing that looked like hyrogliphics, that Smith translated. Whether these visions really happened or not, it appears Smith sincerely believed that they did.

Just like many premies did, people uprooted their lives and followed him around the country. They were persecuted in many places, finally ending up in Utah, where they intended to form a new country that would seceed from the US. I was surprised to learn that over 2,000 people joined the church in England and then followed Smith to the Western US, along with the thousands of Americans who joined his sect.

Also, and I thought this was interesting, Smith's biggest antagonists were disgruntled ex-members of the sect.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 04:12:09 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Disgruntled ex-members?
Message:

Deputy Dog responded:
Disgruntled ex-members? What goes around comes around.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 18:27:12 (GMT)
From: Shifting
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Disgruntled ex-members?
Message:

Dog,

The reality is that the relationship with M. CANNOT be explained with the mind. Why? because it cannot be explained.. Because if you begin to reason you must begin to run away as fast as you can....

I received K. in 1974. I din't know then what I know today. You are wrong saying that it's an experience not a belief. You believed. You trusted and that is why you are still in it. To experience you have to believe in whatever you are doing. This is the case with anything you do.

Look at this... Concepts are bad in 'his' world. Did you ever stopped and thought about all the concepts HE has put in your head? Being in 'the mind' = reasoning. Is it bad to reason? To question? NO! The techniques of Knowledge are not unique. Can you see that you can practice the tecniques on your own if you wanted to meditate? The big problem I have is the way he presented the whole thing to me: The saviour. The Living Lord.... These days it comes to, as you said it: Who cares. I love Knowledge...You see? That was my way of justifying my acts. Who cares?...

I care ecause is my life, the gift my Creator gave ME. I care because, how can I go and 'spred' the news to others and feel okay with myself. I am recommending something to others that myself don't know what it is, nor I can explain. How do you feel talking to others about it? Oh, I forgot. You cannot talk. The master will do the talking. Freedom? Think again. I dare you to look at yoursef.

I started to come to this forum just for curiosity, and the more I read, the more awake I became...I saw myself in every person who spoke here against M.

I do know that the longer you are involved, the more difficult it's to begin to reason. Do yourself a favor: THINK.

Few months of reasoning have allowed me to see what for years I was programmed to disregard.... I feel a peace today that I did not have while I was 'practicing' knowledge.

I was very closely involved. I saw what I saw. I cannot say much now because I am afraid of the premies around me.

The experience is inside of you. Yes. If you want to feel close to beauty insted of ugliness, in you is the power to do so. Inside of you is the power of appreciation. Nevertheless, if you like to follow him because you like what he says, you can hear the same in many other places, books, etc. You are trapped. It's a cult. He doesn't even know what he's doing...I feel sorry for him and his fears...but mostly, I feel sorry for suckers like myself who believed, B E L I E V E D, on his trip.

The sun is shinning outside my window and I can enjoy it without looking at his picture... I have the capacity in me to enjoy: Nobody gave it me. I was born with it. You have it too.

I rather go and help a good cause that the insanity of M.'s world. $ for this, $ money for that... What he is doing is not beneficial in the long run for nobody.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 15:11:32 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Think about it Dog
Message:
Think about it, Dog. Doesn't it make sense that people who invested time, resources and talent into some kind of cult, and got ripped off, might feel more interested in exposing the cult for what it is than people who were never involved? Whatever you think of Joseph Smith of the Mormons, they had some really bizarre beliefs and many people sacrificed their lives for the cause, believing what Joseph Smith told them. If they discover it was fake, don't you think they might try to help others from making the same mistake by exposing what is going on? Makes perfect sense to me.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 18:05:23 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Thanks JW
Message:

Deputy Dog responded:
JW,

Thanks for your note, it really clarified something for me. I still respect M and value Knowledge because I never felt I was ripped off. Knowledge woke me up and allowed me to be present. I had some rude awakenings, but stayed the course.

Perhaps I was more 'out there' than your average premie. Letting go wasn't a luxury for me it was a necessity.

Dep

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jan 06, 2000 at 13:12:09 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
Hi Dog,

You say 'Knowledge woke you up'. This is part of your premie religious beliefs.

Knowledge only 'wakes you up' if you believe the following about it:

It is within you.

It is an experience (not a belief) of your life force.

It is perfect and gives you peace.

The experience of it is through Maharaji's four techniques.

Without this belief system Dog, it's the patterns and colours anyone sees when they press their eyeballs.

It's the sounds anyone hears when they block their ears and concentrate.

It's the peace of mind anyone feels when they concentrate on something long enough.

It's the taste of snot.

All that stuff about 'Knowledge of God' (were you around in the 70s Dog?), Divine Light, Divine Harmonies, Nectar etc, is bullshit.

If you remove your religious beliefs about Maharaji and Knowledge Dog, the whole thing crumbles faster than you can say 'darshan line'.

And if it's such a wonderful experience Dog, how come about 95% of people who pass through an initiation ceremony quit?

(As time passes, this percentage slowly increases).

Dog. He is no more God than you or I.

Anth from the Kingdom of Mind.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 05:34:59 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
AJ,

Let me tackle your post one idea at a time:

Waking up has nothing. to do with beliefs.

Of course Knowledge is within me! Where else would it be, one of the Spice Girls?

It is an experience (not a belief) of your life force.

It is perfect and gives you peace.

The experience of it is through Maharaji's four techniques. Other people do these techniques, the Self Realisation Fellowship for example. I've done TM and other techniques and liked them.

It is the peace of mind anyone feels when they concentrate on something long enough? Really? Do you get peace from television or playing golf or concentrating on traffic noise or rap music?

It's the taste of snot? Well, I suggest you check with your doctor or health care professional about that one.

All that stuff about 'Knowledge of God' (were you around in the 70s Dog?), Divine Light, Divine Harmonies, Nectar etc, is not bullshit in my opinion. Of course I'm agnostic and don't really know.

You say if I remove my religious beliefs about Maharaji and Knowledge, the whole thing crumbles faster than you can say 'darshan line'. Good! I don't want any beliefs about Knowledge or M, none! They are barriers to the experience. (Of course that's another belief.)

You wonder why about 95% of people who pass through an initiation ceremony quit? Don't know? Maybe they prefer bread and circuses, i.e. drugs, sex, and TV (my apologies to John Lennon). Maybe it's too tough a road to hoe for most. Cares of the world, you know. Maybe they don't have true grit. Maybe they'd rather take a pill. Don't know?

As time passes, this percentage slowly increases. Not much I can do about that. Too bad.

You finish by saying M is no more God than you or I. Well who cares! I enjoy the experience of meditation and I like what M says about that experience. Let's leave God out of it.

You sign off as 'Anth from the Kingdom of Mind.' When you live in your mind, are you living in the here and now, the real world? I don't think so. You are living in your files, your records of what happened. Painted cakes do not satisfy hunger. But hey, you want to live in the world of opinions? Then go ahead! You obviously gave Knowledge a chance.

Dep the Oft Times Struggling Pilgrim

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Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 10:03:54 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Sex, Drugs and TV for all.
Message:
Dog,

You're really flogging a dead horse here.

First, you say waking up has nothing to do with beliefs. I know what you mean. But in another sense, discarding a redundant, obsolete, and useless set of beliefs, is 'waking up'.

You say, 'Of course 'knowledge' is within me.

Let's look at this Dog. By, 'Knowledge', you really mean two things don't you. You mean something taught by Maharaji (the 'experience' of the four techniques) and you mean that indescribable energy that's keeping you alive (soul, life force whatever).

Everyone in the world sees these as two very seperate things Dog. But premies have been conditioned to think that they are the same thing, (like you do).

Out of interest, describe the taste you get when you do the fourth technique. To me it tastes like snot.

It's interesting that the reason you think most premies have quit is because 'Maybe they prefer bread and circuses, i.e. drugs, sex, and TV'.

So what you're suggesting here is that having sex, and watching TV, smoking a spliff (though not necessarily at the same time), somehow is an alternative to meditating, and these activities are in conflict somehow. Is this the case Dog?

Dog, I'm astonished you've picked up on the 'mind' thing. I meant it as a joke, but you still obviously have your head full of this 70s, old fashioned premie bullshit about, 'TV and Sex' taking you away from 'knowledge', and 'being in the mind'.

Dep, you're the one trapped in the past, not us.

Stop struggling and come out to play. You'll feel much better when you stop believing all that bullshit. Ask any of the 37,000 British ex-premies.

We all agree, it's better to be free.

Anth the Servant of Satan and Stoned Sex Slave of the TV addicted Antichrist.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 14:59:28 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Sex, Drugs and TV sometimes
Message:
AJ,

No use flogging a dead horse, unless it's just for the fun of it.

We agree on one thing. Discarding a redundant, obsolete, and useless set of beliefs, is 'waking up'.

You say I'm the one trapped in the past. But where does the past exist? Where do our memories exist?

Am I suggesting here that having sex, watching TV, and smoking a spliff somehow is an alternative to meditating, and these activities are in conflict somehow. No I'm saying that concentrating on different things brings you different results.

When I meditate I step out of the past because I'm not longer being pushed around by my mental conditioning. Out limited identity is not our true nature.

And when M was in Briton some time ago, he filled Wembley Stadium didn't he? Where did those people come from?

You say 'We all agree, it's better to be free.' Well, free from what?

Dep the Lotus rising above Past Conditioning

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Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 16:05:37 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Sex, Drugs and TV sometimes
Message:
Dog,

In a post above, you said, ‘waking up had nothing to do with beliefs’.

Then, in your next post you said, ‘We agree on one thing. Discarding a redundant, obsolete, and useless set of beliefs, is 'waking up'.

You asked, ‘Where does the past exist? Where do our memories exist?’ How about, in our memory, in photos, videos, tastes, films, books, poetry, all over the place. Everything is the past if you accept relativity.

I asked why most people quit, you said, ‘Maybe they prefer bread and circuses, i.e. drugs, sex, and TV’. , then you said what you meant was, ‘concentrating on different things brings you different results’.

You also said when Maharaji was in Britain he filled Wembly Stadium. Who told you this Dog? They got muddled up. There are three arenas in the Wembly complex, the Stadium (70,000), the Conference Centre (4,500), and the Arena (7,000).

The last programme I attended was in the Arena. It was the most sparsely attended programme, where everyone in Europe was invited. I did a head count and there were about 4,500 people there. The organisers claimed 1500 aspirants and new people, leaving a paltry 3,000. I personally know a few of those who have since quit. The new people quit much faster.

Come on Dog. There’s one simple fact that will explain all those little things that have bugged you since you joined the cult.

It’s time to face the truth about what you’re into Dog. It’s a cult. Just like the Moonies.

Anth the Heretic

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 21:53:26 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Sex, Drugs, and TV?
Message:
Anth,

You say, 'Where does the past exist? Where do our memories exist? How about, in our memory, in photos, videos, tastes, films, books, poetry, all over the place. Everything is the past if you accept relativity.'

Well consider this AJ. The past exists only in the mind. What we see, hear, think, and feel, is recorded in our minds and stored there as memories. People with severe amnesia have to learn to speak all over again. Show them a photo of their wife or husband and they won't recognise them. Show them their favourite film and they probably won't be impressed. The past does not exist, 'all over the place.' It exists only in the mind. Give someone a lobotomy and their past is erased, deleted. This is not a new idea. Indian tradition calls these recordings karma, Freud called them unconscious or repressed memories, and Scientologists call them facsimiles.

You must admit that most of the evil in the world comes from human behaviour. Most human beings robot through life in the mind state. Look at someone a certain way or say something in a particular tone of voice and they go nuts. One guy goes to sleep in a traffic jam another guy rips the steering wheel off his car in a towering rage. It's the same traffic jam, different mental conditioning. And meditation helps us rise above these karmic patterns. That's freedom!

No, I did not and have not joined a cult! I can vote however I want. I can eat whatever I want. I can read whatever I want. I can believe whatever I want. I can be agnostic. I can even go around saying I'm a Buddhist for God's sake. That's a cult? There have been some recent posts on this site about the Mormons, and just for fun check out the Moonie sites. You have to believe certain things to belong to these groups. And as a premie I can believe whatever I want. If that's a cult it's a pretty magnanimous, beneficent, open one. Ask five premies the same question and I'll bet you get a least four different answers.

All M asks is that we practice. Buddha said that it is our search for perfection outside of ourselves that causes our suffering. I agree.

Dep the Orthodox

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Date: Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 12:36:52 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: One Question
Message:
Hi Dog,

I don't need to ask premies five questions. One will do.

Can you think of any criticism of Maharaji?

(Eg,
He's overweight.
He got it all wrong about establishing peace on Earth.
He looks a prat in his Krishna crown, why the hell did he bother.
He has trouble relating to people who don't worship him etc.
Just a few suggestions.)

Answer the question Dog, then tell me you're not in a cult.

Anth the Curious

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Date: Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 18:55:15 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Two Answers
Message:
AJ,

Can I criticise M? I've been through with this with Jim. (Where is James by the way?)

I think M can sometimes be a little callous when dealing with premies. For example, when he implies that money isn't all that important, I don't think he really understands what it's like to live in poverty in a bad neighbourhood. I also think he was a little callous when dealing with the ashram premies, many of whom gave up careers to serve him. How's that?

Many other premies e-mailed criticisms to M on the premie site address. It was quite cathartic.

As far as your example criticisms go:
- He's overweight. (A lot of people are.)
- He got it all wrong about establishing peace on Earth. (Peace on earth is done one person at a time.)
- He looks a prat in his Krishna crown, why the hell did he bother. (That's an Indian cultural thing that has been done away with.)
- He has trouble relating to people who don't worship him etc. (We all have trouble relating to people who don't worship us.)

My dictionary defines cult as:
- formal religious veneration or worship (well, that could be any church)
- a systen of religious beliefs or ritual (ditto)
- a religion regarded as unorthodox (there are more Hindus than us)
- a great devotion to a person, idea or thing (does this include 9'er or Elvis fans?)

So no, I'm an individual who thinks for himself. As I said earlier, if I am in a cult it's a pretty relaxed one. I can vote however I want. I can eat whatever I want. I can read whatever I want. I can go and see a video whenever I want. I can believe whatever I want? I can be a conservative, agnostic, Buddist, who loves horse racing and still be a premie. Some one else could be a gay, communist, who likes ham radio and fly-fishing and still be a premie.

All M asks is that we practise a least one hour a day. That's it! Pretty unstructured isn't it?

So please, let's put all this cult nonsense to rest.

Dep the Independant

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Date: Mon, Jan 10, 2000 at 19:59:40 (GMT)
From: Christopher
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog-ma
Subject: ... many beliefs.
Message:
Belief systems take many forms. Of course, one of the main attractions of the 'Knowledge' (for me) was that it supposedly did not rely on ANY belief system. The experience was supposedly the be-all and end-all.

But along with that experience ('freely' given) exists a subtle but effective inducement to ensure that M is seen in a particular light. The older followers around him certainly do place him 'on a pedestal', and newer followers cannot help but be influenced by this.

Practising meditation CAN be a beneficial experience, and there are many forms of meditation out there (- or should I say in there?). The particular techniques that M reveals are not of his invention, nor does he own any kind of copyright on them. Nonetheless, he manages to allow himself to be set up as a focus for the 'gratitude' (formerly 'devotion') that successful meditators are encouraged to feel. This is the belief system or 'mind-set' that is fostered by the cult. (Yes it IS a cult, - and no more quibbling from you, Dog!)

Experiencing benefits from the meditation can easily lead to a feeling that one owes a 'debt of gratitude' to the teacher/revealer of those techniques. It's quite natural that the more benefit you gain, the more grateful you'll be inclined to feel towards the giver of that 'gift'.

It is evident from M's lifestyle that he profits from this, and I hope, Dep, that you're not so caught up in the scam as to deny that.

No-one taught us how to breathe. But suppose someone taught us how to use our breath as a source of the magic 'feel-good factor'. Just being aware of the inflow and outflow of breath as a means of centering and balancing our often troubled daily lives - it can be a powerful rudder. Worth teaching, and worth learning.

Fact is, that awareness was our natural birthright. As babies and children we were far more in touch with that feeling. As adults we lose touch. Getting back in contact with that experience feels great. But the process of regressing to that state of infantile bliss often involves a desire (or even NEED) to seek again a parent-figure whose very presence personifies the deep need for unconditional love that we experienced as babies.

This is where the danger of M's teaching is evident. The trust and love that he receives (as substitute parent-figure) put him in a position of great responsibility towards his 'reborn' children. More responsibility, IMO, than anyone should take on themselves. And that is karmically dangerous, not just for him, but for his adherents too.

Face it, Dep, if he really WAS a true benefactor of mankind, he would share those means of re-connecting with 'the source' WITHOUT any subtle demands for 'gratitude' or credit towards himself. The experience was our birthright, remember?

He had a chance to make a real difference to this world. The effort and dedication (in the DLM days) that we gave him was certainly a head-start. But what has he done with it? What would YOU do with that kind of support if you were in his situation?

The man is not interested in in humanity's advancement. If that was his priority he would have propagated the 'Knowledge' purely and simply as an act of altruism, without demanding anyone's surrender / devotion / gratitude.

The hook of devotion to his own ego and persona is what marks him out as a fake, - however beneficial the practice of meditation may be. Ex-premies who still practise meditation will testify that, without Mr Rawat, the experience of 'Knowledge' is in no way diminished or diluted. Quite the opposite.

And where would Rawi be if he hadn't insisted on taking all the credit? - A lot higher in my estimation of him, that's for sure.

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Date: Mon, Jan 10, 2000 at 21:38:07 (GMT)
From: Carol the comrade
Email: rbruce@teleport.com
To: Christopher
Subject: ... many beliefs.
Message:
Before I go for awhile, I'm going to fit in as many readings as I have time for today,,,,I enjoyed reading yours Christopher (always liked the name and the meaning associated to St. Christopher who protects you from harm!) Thanks for your response and your posts.
Carol
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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 20:06:51 (GMT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Thanks JW
Message:
Whne you were 'letting go' how many family members and how much money ahve you 'let go' to achieve this indescribable experience? I'll give you a hint if you will just 'let go' of some cash to me I can guarantee you an experiece of lila you will never forget (cashus ripped offus wit all assetuses aufen no debtus nor no familus)
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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 19:30:05 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Thanks JW
Message:
Sure. It's clear that people who were/are premies have approached it in different ways, and coming from different places when they got involved. For me, I think it's important that people who are trying to find out about Maharaji, know that there are many sides to the story. There are people who think knowledge worked for them and those who don't. There are people who think Maharaji is doing something valuable and those who don't. That's why I think this discussion is important.
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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 04:47:36 (GMT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Disgruntled ex-members?
Message:
Well some people consider the Mormom church a cult and they aren't ex members
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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 03:14:59 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Mormons -- Joseph Smith
Message:
Dear Joe,
I read a book about Joseph Smith and the origins of the Mormon religion. Of course I can't remember the name of the book but they did write about the visions but the main premise was that it was all because he wanted to have an affair with his secretary and so worked that into one of his visions, about having more then one wife. Wish I could remember the name of the book. I remember it said that in the Mormon 'rules' it was written that only the first wife would go to heaven as the wife.
To bad I don't get PBS! :(
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 04:47:31 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Mormons -- Joseph Smith
Message:
Yes, I heard that too, Robyn --the affair thing. Pretty shabby. I can't believe this cult has morphed into a mainline religion. Uh, on second thought, yes I can.

I can't get much of any TV lately--no cable, but I have antenna. Too much solar activity--it's very intense right now--and the reception is terrible. Not that I'm missing much but I would have like to have seen the show Joe mentioned.

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 15:38:47 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Mormons -- Joseph Smith
Message:
JW and others,

PBS in my city aired the program about three weeks ago. It proved to me that every cult surrounding a charismatic figure is the same old story over and over again.

I had already researched Joseph Smith, in the mid-80's. I met a gay man who had just been ex-communicated from the Mormon church in the small Kansas town where he lived. He had come out as a gay man. The church kicked him out, his wife divorced him and took the two kids. To complete this 'purging process' he took up jogging, but with a twist: he did his jogging at 2am and in the nude. Every night, he stood outside the 7-11 store in the parking lot until the clerk spotted him and then ran off. The clerk was not amused. He called the police and the next night the police were waiting for him and he spent some time in jail. I met him soon afterwards when he moved to my city.

He was still devoutly Mormon. We went to see the movie 'The Last Temptation of Christ' and he said that the movie only strenthened his belief in the Mormon church. So, thoroughly exasperated with my new friend, I checked out a wonderful book on Joseph Smith. It is called 'Joseph Smith and the Origins of the Book of Mormon.' By David Persuitte. Published in the mid-80's. The book is impeccable. It may be the one that Robyn read, since it does outline exactly why the plural marriages came about. But it also makes very clear how Joseph got the idea for the golden plates and how he supposedly translated them. Joseph knew from the very beginning what a complete fraud he was. He was never sincere or even deluded about being a prophet. It was all a scam. Like Gerry, I cannot believe that this cult is so popular, still. The Book of Mormon is a complete joke!

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 18:18:53 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Mormons -- Joseph Smith
Message:
Thanks Way. Interesting how the well-credentialed historians on the program, from Princeton, Chicago and I think Harvard, said that they didn't believe Smith saw the visions, but that he probably believed he had.

Likewise, on occasion, I think Maharaji really believed he was the perfect master and that knowledge really works and that the experience comes from him. I think he has long stopped believing in that, and knows he, too, is a fraud, and the past 15 years have been his shoddy attempt to water-down the teachings of his cult and to try to cover over all the ridiculous things he said and believed in the past, while retaining the lifestyle he has gotten used to.

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 19:35:36 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Also
Message:
I think the Mormon Church has now become a fairly established religion, in which people who are members bring up their kids in the same religion they have. I work with people who are Mormons and they seem awfully normal, and extremely materially ambitious. They seem to fit right into the values of the society. The erswhile quarterback for the 49ers, Steve Young, is a direct descendent of Brigham Young, and he is continually doing commercials for Toyota. He has had so many concussions that he hasn't played all year, and the 49ers went into the toilet this year with their second and third string quarterbacks. My, how the mightly have fallen.

The Mormons do have some shitty positions on gays, and people of other races (I think until very recently blacks were not allowed to be ministers in the church.)

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 20:28:03 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Also
Message:
JW,

The PBS show obviously made a lot of effort to present a balanced view and not to include anything too explosive. They chose their experts and their comments carefully, I am sure. They evidently wished to avoid presenting any final judgement. The show could have been quite different, and actually much more interesting for me, if they had presented the case on both sides more fully. There are many archeologists, for example, who would have lambasted the Book of Mormon unmercifully. There is very damning information about the gold plates and other matters that would have assassinated Smith's character beyond redemption. Highly embarassing components of Mormon practice (such as their special underwear) could have been revealed. Perhaps a project for a more daring documentary maker.

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 22:19:34 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Also
Message:
Dear Way, JW, et al,
Sounds like if not the same book, the same type of information. It amazes me to think that people need something to believe in so badly that they will swallow such bull shit to belong to a group of 'spiritual insiders'.
I can't believe blacks would be in the church knowing they couldn't be ministers! That just shocks the hell out of me!
Please tell all about their 'special' underware!? Maybe you'd better go to Dave's forum though.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Jan 06, 2000 at 00:53:10 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Robyn and Way
Subject: Also
Message:
Right, Robyn. I also want to know about the special underwear. Way, please tell us.

One of the points the historians made in the PBS program was that cults usually don't survive unless they move quickly to separate their members from the rest of society, and make them feel like a cohesive group that sees itself as different from the rest of the world. Joseph Smith, told his followers to uproot their lives and move first to Kirkland, Ohio, then Missouri, then Nauvoo, Illinois and finally Utah and he said they were 'saints' just like, he said, the early Christians considered themselves to be, only the followers of Smith were 'latter day' saints. They were persecuted in most of those places and despite terrible hardships, a certain number of the group stayed and the group continued to grow, and they also sent out missionaries to get new recruits.

The 'experts' said that cults that don't separate the followers from the society usually fold because people get involved back into the real world.

Kinda reminds me of the Maharaji cult in the early years. Thousands of us uprooted ourselves from our friends and family and moved to communities and into ashrams, and we saw ourselves as a cohesive group that was qualitatively different from the rest of the world. Plus, this was reinforced by a lot of what Maharaji said.

Also, Way, I didn't get to see the whole series on PBS. Was the gold book just a hoax? A number of people claimed to have seen it and never denied they did, even though some of them later rejected Smith.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 06, 2000 at 03:11:01 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Also
Message:
Dear Joe,
If Way won't tell us about the special underwear, I think we should give him a wedgy! :)
I found what you said about cults seperating the group from their roots. I didn't even suspect or notice anything like that because I was near where I grew up! I bet that has a lot to do with why I didn't get so sucked in! My parents were there a couple of times, in the premie house. I would visit them and friends would come over sometimes. I even had a fun adventure driving around with a guy from the house, Victor taking my friend Joan to a motel to meet some guy because she wrecked her car. She had crackers and peanut butter and juice. Victor had a great time! :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Jan 06, 2000 at 11:23:56 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Robyn
Subject: You want the dirt? I got it!
Message:
I have the dirt. I always have it. That's all I got. That's my job around here. I'm the dirt man. I sell dirt. I make dirt. I am dirt. Git your dirt here before it's too late. Going out of business sale. Reduced prices on dirt. Final Days! Vials, jars, bags, truckloads and boatloads of dirt. Bad dirt. Dirty dirt. Smelly and dangerous dirt. Dirt with dead worms and crawly things that nobody knows the names of. Dirt that gits under your skin and don't wash off. Under your nails and in yer hair. Starts coming through yer teeth too.

Let's start with them stinky underwear! Heck, just yesterday I used eCommerce to buy some of them.

I believe that they are known as the Holy Garment or something. I've never seen them, but my cousin went to school in Utah and majored in Powder Skiing and he told me all about them and says that chicks really dig 'em. The garment is made of silk which is one of the reasons that the State of Utah is or was one of the largest producers of silk. My cousin is not the kinda guy to be staring at other men's crotches in the locker room so I don't know about the crotch area of the garment, but there are holes to allow the nipples to hang out so that when you finally go tits up God or Big Dog hauls your ass outta here tits up by the tits. Sounds kinky and we don't go in for that stuff around these parts no more. So, git down there little doggie.

Now, once your dead, ya see, then you got yer heavens. Don't know exactly how many levels there are, but if you led an exemplary life on Earth then you get your own damn planet (kinda like that kewl song by them good ol' Oklahoma boys the Flaming Lips - 'I Want My Own Planet') and you are God and all your family is there with you. And that's one reason you want to have a really big family and why you need to search out all of your ancestors while you're alive 'cause if you find 'em all then they're all gonna be there on the new planet with you to help out. And check this out, that's why Maharaji is really a Mormon. Or at least he was in a previous life. And a damn good one at that. Don't let his dalliances fool you. He's earned his place in the sun.

Now once you are God of your own planet you can make rules up like no coffee, no booze, no tobacco, no caffeine and stuff like that. And while you can make rules, you can break them as well. Say for example because you've got everybody on your own planet obediently tithing the church has lots of cash in the bank that needs to be wisely invested. Well, you consult with those cranky church elders and all they want is a Pepsi, just one a Pepsi, and she wouldn't give me one. Sorry, spun off on some other kewl song lyrics. So, the church buys stock in the Pepsi Company. But, hey, Pepsi sells Pepsi and Pepsi's got caffeine. So, now it's ok for your people to drink Pepsi and eat Pizza Hut. And I mean only Pepsi. No Coke, no weed, no shit, man. Just a Pepsi and...

So, now everybody is happy drinking their Pepsi's, but it buzzes 'em out with a little too much energy. So, rather than waste all that energy you tell your family to breed like rabbits so that the church membership can increase. And by the way, you tell 'em, if men want to you can have more than one wife because that way the church membership grows even faster. Hell, you can't have women hanging around doing nothing and not being barefoot and pregnant, can ya?

And things are doing real fine. Everybody is wearing the garment that they gotta buy at the Church Supply Store. Everybody is drinking Pepsi and all the women folk got babies growing inside of 'em. More and more people are choosing Pepsi over Coke, Mountain Dew over whatever Coke keeps trying to sell. Pepsi stock is going higher and higher, split, dividend, split. Church membership is growing. Everybody is tithing. Buy more Pepsi stock.

And everything is good. But damn! Them non-believer men folk are coveting thy neighbors wives asses and your barns keep getting burned down. And them assholes in town that don't like ya and ya got keep moving on. Kinda like the Forum here at times. Well, you're getting tired of getting kicked around by all that white trash up and down that big wide river and you need somebody to pick on too. So, you tell everybody that blacks are the spawn of the devil and blacks don't go to heaven. Hey, I'm not making this up. I been told by a black woman that she heard this as a child in school and it busted her up something good. Ok, now the Mormons have cooled it on their racist thing, but don't expect to go to far if you're black.

And then you got the Church in Temple Square. If you can you should get married there. In fact, that will be the only time they let you into that building.

Now one good thing that the Mormons did do was to have the widest streets of any city. And the reason was to be able to turn around a horse driven wagon.

So, the next time you see Senator Orin Hatch on TV telling you that he wants to be the next President or how he thinks that Bill Gates is really Satan just think about the Holy Garment that he is wearing and his perky little pink... And you don't want to be caught dead without one.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 06, 2000 at 15:54:39 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: You want the dirt? I got it!
Message:
Roger,

Thanks so much for coming up with the dirt! I was very daunted by the prospect of having to find the proper documentation about the underwear. 'Holy Garment' does sounds correct, but I was told that they are horribly cumbersome and uncomfortable and therefore much hated. I believe the practice is mostly discontinued by now, but was still going strong in the sixties and seventies. I could be wrong.

The gold plates were supposedly created in heaven and buried in the earth by God's angels. I think that claim alone pretty much clinches the hoax theory. Smith must have created some sort of golden objects and given a few chosen idiots a small peek at them. The book I cited earlier explains exactly where Smith got the idea, from some sort of legend popular in his area. The book also brilliantly accounts for a lot of the bullshit that Smith supposedly 'translated' off the golden plates. Smith's story is truly fascinating. He had to have been a genius to keep his lies going for as long as he did. Eventually, truth seems to prevail. Rawat, take note.

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Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 00:37:27 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: You want the dirt? I got it!
Message:
Dear Way and Rog,
Well, I for one am dissapointed! I believe I can speak for JW here too that we were very interested to hear about these 'special garments' but more specifically the CROTCH area!!! Geez what is religious underwear without something 'special' in the crotch area. I am going to pout now.... :(
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 08:21:29 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Robyn
Subject: The Crotch!
Message:
Well, Robyn, do you want me to just wing it and make something up about the crotch. I've got journalistic standards that I uphold.

Just for a few seconds thinking about the implications of a hole in the crotch gives me the slick willies. I'm mean if God yanks your soul to heaven by the nipples that is one thing, but by the genitals is something completely different. Say, what if God pulled too hard and the genitals broke and stayed on the earthly plane. What the hell is that gonna mean in your afterlife? I being good here on Earth and I know that God will reward me in heaven with my heart's desire, Cerby's bum. Uh, which forum am I on now?

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Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 09:09:57 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: The Crotch!
Message:
Dear Rog,
Thanks for trying. I would have thought that the crotch would be of a locking varity or something. I thought you were taking literary license with the nipple thing, is that true?
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 19:18:10 (GMT)
From: bezelbub
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Lord of Coke
Message:
Cocaine came to the west coast in a big way at least by 77.
A little cocaine stimulates the central nervous system
producucing exhilaration, euphoria, and a tremendous sense of well being and power. A lot of cocaine over time, produces paranoia.
'Lehders own heavy cocaine use boosted his meglomania into the
stratosphere. He began to affect a regal reckless air.'

It is no secret that m went through a long period where
he had to have lots of armed security guys and extreme measures
where there was no need.
No one was allowed near him and his paranoia is revealed in many
examples, here is just one:
During a DECA courtyard holi where he tested the gun on us, he walked
back to the garage through pranaming premies. One 'sister' was
foolish enough to walk near him and offer him a handful of
flowers which he quicky handed off to his security guy.
In the garage, a furious lord rawat told Jim Hession,
'If you do one thing for me, keep those premies away from me!'

She was banned from DECA of course.

His own personal meglomania is and was astounding to behold.
I say, raja ji being a coke head lends itself to the idea that
the lord was also. He has been revealed to be a pot smoker by
at least that old female instructor that Mark Appleman
talked to. There is that photo of him with hansi from 77 Rome
handout folder that shows him standing through a car sun roof
and holding hansi. My wife said that 'he looks like he is on
drugs' which pissed me off because I was a premie. But she is
right. He was always angry and dismissive and just about never
would say things were right or that anyone did good.
Also, he was always critical it is no secret that he would
rage at the close staff. He had his euphoric moments and
one day after Milky Cole had bugged him for a while to give him
'that experience' MIlky had a strange and powerful experience for
a day-which was never repeated. I say m gave him acid.
Anyone know MIlkys address so I can ask him if m gave him ANYTHING
to eat or drink at the start of that 'experience'.

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 18:27:17 (GMT)
From: ij
Email: None
To: bezelbub
Subject: Lord of Coke
Message:
Hi B
Reading this brought back some memories. When you mentioned Milky why did I think of Arther Dayley on acid?
My thought of finding Milkie's address would be to start at the home office, HM prisons Dept. Oh I'm a cynical bastard.
Regards
IJ
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Date: Thurs, Jan 06, 2000 at 13:19:45 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: anthginn@yahoo.com
To: ij
Subject: Milky
Message:
Hi ij,

there's been a couple of posts recently from people asking where Milky is. Last year, I'm pretty sure he was living down in the South West of England.

If anyone needs to get in touch with him, I can get his address, but as I know him, but don't know you, I'd rather pass on a message from you, or whoever, to him, rather than pass on his address to you.

Blather blather.

Anyway, email me and we can take it from there.

Anth the Phone Book.

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 18:48:48 (GMT)
From: Christopher
Email: planetqwerty@postmaster.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: Time of the seasons?
Message:
Great drama on UK television last night - part two of 'Longitude' - and, whaddyakno?
- Greenwich Mean Time on the Forum already.

Now this is what I call synchronicity.

P.S. Belated Happy New Century, everyone.

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 07:27:08 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Christopher
Subject: Time of the seasons?
Message:
Christopher:

Re: P.S. Belated Happy New Century, everyone.

Actually, you're about 362 days early.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 20:24:30 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Christopher
Subject: GMT v EST
Message:
Bonjour Chris,

I think the forum switched to GMT because civilisation has virtually collapsed in the States.

I hear that it's just heavily guarded compounds of paranoid, rich, white folk, surrounded by a multiracial, crumbling social infrastructure.

It's had it. EST and Disneytime belong to the last century. Europa is where it's at. (And you know where she came from don't you Chris?)

Cherrio old chap, au revoir, auf wiedersehen, due cappochini por favore.

Anth the Mythed the Point.

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 20:56:41 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: GMT v EST
Message:
Dear Anth,
I HATE DOING THE MATH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If I had to ADD 5 hours I'd be ok but I have to SUBTRACT!!! :( Then if someone from 16 hrs ahead of me posts or 2 or 3 hours behind it becomes an algebra class!!!
I know you all had to do it before but shit you must have been use to it, I'm slipping off the edge into math twilite zone.
Heeeeeellllllllllllllllllp...
You can ask Harry too, I am no good at time zone problems. :(
Love,
Robyn the geographer NOT the mathmatition
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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 13:57:18 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: No maths required.
Message:
Robyn,

Simply put all the clocks in your house back five hours (or swing the sundial round or whatever).

Then you'll be in tune with Europa. Be careful though, you may find yourself using more olive oil.

Anth the Oily

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 14:09:55 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: No maths required.
Message:
Dear Anth,
I want to use more olive oil so that will work but the clock thing...I don't know, I do make my own hours for work but I don't know. Maybe I should set different clocks for different countries and keep them all here by the computer with little lables! Hey, I think that is my solution!!!! See what a little brain storming can do! Thanks to all of you. :)
Love,
Robyn the creative genius! :)
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Date: Thurs, Jan 06, 2000 at 13:24:55 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Olive Oil
Message:
Hi Robyn,

Did you know that the best olive oil comes from Tuscany?

Did you know that the best olive oil is called 'Extra-virgin'.

And did you know that when you buy a bottle of 'Extra-virgin Olive Oil from Tuscany' it most likely only contains 30% Italian olive oil. The rest is from Greece of Spain.

That's because of a law in Italy that allows them to do this.

It's partly because the Tuscan olives are very small compared to the others, so they don't actually produce all that much oil each year.

Anth the Oily, but no longer Extra-virgin.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 06, 2000 at 17:32:37 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Olive Oil
Message:
Dear Anth,
Well you did teach me about olive oil today, eh? :) Thanks.
I think I was extra-virgin until recently. I dissengadged from relationships almost 6 years as they were getting worse and worse. I needed a breather and some time to sort through things and change some things which I have gotten a good start on, at least. During that time I think I became EXTRA virgin, like a born again virgin. :)
Love,
Robyn formerly known as EXTRA-virgin.
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Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 10:08:45 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Olive Oil
Message:
Hmmmmn (again),

Do the same rules of classification of virginity apply to you as apply to Italian olive oil (ie, in reality you're only 30% virgin, having had some Greek, or Spanish in there somewhere)?

Anth the Cutting it Fine and Oily.

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Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 13:47:59 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Olive Oil
Message:
Dear Anth,
I'd say I am 10% virgin now, just because I am so sweet. :) But I am 100% Italian! :) Except of course that I was born and raised in America! :) My grandparents are from Italy though.
Love,
Robyn the imported
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Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 16:11:41 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Viva Italia
Message:
Hi Robyn,

I love Italy. I've been over quite a few times in the past few years. The Italians are really friendly and hospitable. Their food is fantastic and they've got a really healthy attitude to life.

Not to mention style.

One of my close friends is a mad Italian reprobate artist who's taught me how to cook pasta and make salad.

Ciao

Antonio il Grande.

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 21:06:22 (GMT)
From: Christopher
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: GMT v EST
Message:
Hi there Robin.

Ever thought of emigrating?

(PS - hope you can forget about my crazier postings last September - was going through a severe bout of 'reality-testing') Sanity apparently restored (but don't hold your breath).

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 03:07:41 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Christopher
Subject: GMT v EST
Message:
Dear Chris,
Well I guess that is it then, I'm moving to England! Thanks, that was so easy! :) I just wish it wasn't rainy and cloudy so much over there.
No worries about your previous posts. If I had felt I knew you and you were just having a rough time that would have been fine but I didn't know you and I've become a bit more cautious since I first arrived here a couple of years ago.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 18:51:31 (GMT)
From: Christopher
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: GMT v EST
Message:
Rainy and cloudy?

Reminds me of the story about the guy in the mental asylum who keeps hitting himself over the head with a piece of wood. A doctor rushes up to him and says 'Why do you do that - doesn't it hurt?' To which the guy responds, 'Sure it hurts, but it's ever so nice when I stop' :}

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 22:23:40 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Christopher
Subject: GMT v EST
Message:
Dear Chris,
'Reminds me of the story about the guy in the mental asylum who keeps hitting himself over the head with a piece of wood. A doctor rushes up to him and says 'Why do you do that - doesn't it hurt?' To which the guy responds, 'Sure it hurts, but it's ever so nice when I stop' :} '

That is EXACTLY how I feel about winter! I LOVE the sun, live for the warm weather, I could become so sad if I couldn't have a lot of sunshine. The draw of the people from England that I've gotten to know some here have convinced me that the people there are well worth meeting! :) Could it be because it rains so much you all have to learn to get along indoors?
Love,
Robyn

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 05:40:29 (GMT)
From: Michael
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: GMT v EST
Message:
Robyn, forget Europe; all the really cool people are in Central America!

El Farisio Miguel

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 14:01:20 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Michael
Subject: Cool People
Message:
Hi Michael,

Don't the cool people live in the Arctic, Siberia, Greenland and Northern Canada.

We always thought the people of Central America were pretty hot.

Anth the Lukewarm

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 18:14:30 (GMT)
From: Michael
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Cool People
Message:
Anth, you are confusing the cool people with the cold people. Yes, people in Central America are pretty hot, and we are also the coolest, man.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 06, 2000 at 13:28:58 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Michael
Subject: I get it now.
Message:
Hi Michael,

I get it now.

Hot is cool.

Bad is good.

Politicians are honest.

And I'm going to lose weight this year.

Have a good one.

Anth the Distended and Confused.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 06, 2000 at 14:13:00 (GMT)
From: Michael
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: I get it now.
Message:
You forgot one: activating one's optic nerve is the height of spiritual attainment.
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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 10:25:04 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Michael
Subject: GMT v EST
Message:
Dear Michael,
And it's warmer! :)
But that won't solve the time problem. :(
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 20:54:43 (GMT)
From: Chris
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: whatever
Message:
Did you hear about the guy who chose Mickey Mouse as his guru? If not I'll tell you sometime.

You know what they say, Anth - give a man enough Europa ...

Truth to tell, I didn't know her story, but a quick :
Fastsearch of 'myth+europa' did the trick. Is that what they call a cock and bull story?

Changing the subject slightly (slightly?) back to Scott T's thread below; who on earth's this Jesus Christ character he's talking about?

According to theologist Albert Schweitzer (no less):

'The Jesus of Nazareth who came forward publicly as the Messiah, who preached the ethic of the Kingdom of God, who founded the Kingdom of Heaven upon earth, and died to give his work its final consecration, never had any existence.

He is a figure designed by rationalism, endowed with life by liberalism and clothed by modern theology in a historical garb.'

(from 'The Quest of the Historical Jesus')

Now that's what I call enlightening!

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 07:41:44 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Chris
Subject: whatever
Message:
Chris:

Re: He is a figure designed by rationalism, endowed with life by liberalism and clothed by modern theology in a historical garb.'

(from 'The Quest of the Historical Jesus')

Now that's what I call enlightening!

I read that article, and it seems like an assertion to me. Not that I believe in an historical Jesus that corresponds to the rendition of the Gospels, but I have little faith in the pre-modern psycho-babble of this author either. Jesus isn't missing, he was just short.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 21:00:58 (GMT)
From: Christopher
Email: None
To: Chris
Subject: whatever revisited
Message:
Too many wubbleyoos in the previous Fastsearch link.

And I think i better call myself Christopher - isn't there someone who posts as 'Chris' on the Forum already?

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 17:37:08 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: freewheeling@bigfoot.com
To: Everyone
Subject: blasphemy and hallucination
Message:
Hi all:

Welcome to the last year of the second millennium. I seem to always find you guys just as you change forum sites. As many of you know, I am interested in how we deal with the phenomenon of charisma and I have found the rollover to the year 2000 fascinating. I have a theory that a higher percentage of premies (or whatever M followers are called nowadays) believe that Jan. 1, 2000 was the first day of the 21st century and of the 3rd millennium. I could be wrong. In any case, it seems that what a friend of mine calls the 'collective conceptual delusion' is starting to wind down. I'd venture to guess that even though CNN still reports this as the 'new millennium' something like 30% of the population have come to their senses. It's difficult to argue with the solution to a mathematical problem that a five-year-old can solve.

So, I was thinking about the history of the calendar dating sequence, and the conventional wisdom that it begins with 1 because the Romans were idiots who didn't know about the 'cipher' or zero quantity. The problem with that interpretation is that when the recalibration was done by the Church some time in the 5th Century (by our current dating sequence) the authorities had access to Arabic numeration, and were using the zero as a place holder. So, why start the sequence at 1 rather than 0? I rather doubt that this was homage to the Roman way. Alternatively, I can see how it might be regarded as a heresy to identify the Lord's birth with the null quantity '0.' One can hardly imagine Jesus declaring 'I am the zero.' That's more of a Buddhist thang.

So, celebrating the start of the third millennium on Jan. 1, 2000 is heresy on two different fronts. It blasphemes against the Christian contention that Jesus was a unique manifestation of Spirit, and it blasphemes against the notion of rational accounting and the consistency of mathematical principles. The first heresy is rather inconsequential compared to the second, and therefore I predict the gaffe will fail the test of time.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 12:58:27 (GMT)
From: Des Perado
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: blasphemy and hallucination
Message:
All very interesting Scot, as all your missives are. But as a new visitor to the site I'm asking myself so what. I'm talking appropo of the nature of the site.

Elsewhere it has been mentioned that entries such as this come from pro M correspondents and I can see that this is probably the case. There seems to be no other reason for these subjects to be discussed on this site, interesting though they may be.

So what's your story? I look forward to reading it.

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 22:19:02 (GMT)
From: Wesley
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: blasphemy and hallucination
Message:
The lowest number used by the Romans was 1, identified as I. There is no Roman numeral to identify the 0 as a 'stand alone' number.

Should I believe 0 does come before 1 when using numbers as labels then last week when I watched ESPN to find out who the Top 100 athletes of our time (I won't fall for 'our century' as it isn't over) Michael Jordan, who was rated to top athlete, was incorrectly identified as the #1 athlete when he should have been called the #0 athlete. The runner up (the guy that came in 2nd in this survey), Babe Ruth, would have been the #1 athlete.

Anybody think Virginia Tech's #1rated college football team will beat top-ranked #0 Florida State when they play in the bowl game? Anybody know who the #0 college basketball team is? Anybody know what song is currently #0 on the record charts this week?
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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 18:37:52 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: 2000 v. 1996
Message:
Hi Scott, nice to hear from you again.

Isn't there also the problem that historians generally agree that Jesus Christ was born in 4 BC and not in the zero year? So, the second millennium, the 2000th anniversary of the birth of Christ, likely happened four years ago, in 1996. I guess this is part of the 'rational accounting' problem.

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 19:05:14 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: 2000 v. 1996
Message:
Joe:

I don't think the issue of inaccuracy or the abitrariness of the starting point is a problem, except for religious purists. Anyway, none of these nitpicks leads to the conclusion that the third millennium started on 01/01/2000. The point is that we have an agreement that allows us to accurately date documents and records, like checks, land deeds, and contracts. Changing the agreement by recalibrating the last 1999 years would involve altering the dates on all of the documents for the last 1500 years. Within the context of that agreement, accepted by those who celebrate 2000 as being the first year of the 21st century, we have simply made a rather incredible accounting mistake. I think it is a benchmark that indicates how open we might be to suggestion or groupthink. Some otherwise intelligent people have even held the view that this is all a matter of interpretation, which it is not. Lots of things are open to interpretation, but this isn't one of them.

Apparently this gaffe was not made in 1900. The big celebrations for the turn of the century were all held on Jan. 1, 1901... which makes the current gaffe even more mysterious. I suspect and hope that peer pressure will straighten things out within the next couple of months.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 23:48:03 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: 2000 v. 1996
Message:
Scott,

This is an interesting exercise, but regarding dating documents and contracts, the actual dates are really only important in relation to other events. And the farther back in time the dates are, the less it matters that they might be a year off. For most legal purposes, ordinary legal documents more than 200 years old have very little meaning except as interesting curios. The Magna Carta and the Constitution are exceptions, but as long as they are authenticated, the actual date they were written has less importance. Although it can be important to know that events happened around the same time as other events, as long as the dates are consistent, even if technically wrong, that information is available.

This occurred to me recently because I'm working on a 100-year lease of a building in San Francisco. It's over 400 pages long. Even in sophisticated legal systems, dealing with periods longer than most lifetimes, means that events in the lease that happen further into the future become very difficult to address. In fact, something like a lease morphs into being more like a purchase contract as the term extends. The disctinctions that make sense in shorter terms begin to blur in longer terms. For practical purposes, it becomes much less important the actual dates of things as you go farther into the past.

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 06:11:23 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: 2000 v. 1996
Message:
Joe:

Re: Although it can be important to know that events happened around the same time as other events, as long as the dates are consistent, even if technically wrong, that information is available.

I'm sure we could deal with the situation, but it would hardly be an improvement. The current year would definitely pose a problem, as having two 1999s would be a bit confusing, to say the least. We could designate them as 1999a and 1999b, but we'd then need five places and would have to increment an alphanumeric. The simplest thing would be to just start over at zero, and save all that ink.

By the way, a friend of mine pointed out that the Christian monks who recalibrated the dating sequence in the fifth century did not have access to the cipher, or zero quantity. That was introduced into Europe during the Moorish invasion of Spain, which began in the 8th century. So, my whole train of logic falls apart on the chronology of the thing. Guess we can blame the Romans after all.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 17:51:09 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: The Romans
Message:
Scott,

You say the Romans were idiots. Like the magnificent movie says, 'What did the Romans ever do for us?'

(Besides, baths, roads, central heating, clean water, writing, etc)

They certainly gave the Christians a good run for their money (round the arena chased by lions).

Anth the Bronze Age Typist.

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 19:08:38 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: The Romans
Message:
Anthe:

Well, the first Christians were mostly Romans, weren't they? Anyway, though they might have been cruel they weren't idiots. They just had a rather cumbersome accounting system.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 20:13:17 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: First Christians
Message:
Hi Scott,

I thought the first Christians were mainly Jewish.

Their founder definitely was.

Anth the Pagan

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 22:02:50 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: First Christians
Message:
Anthe:

Strictly speaking the very first Christians (the first 200 or so) were almost exclusively Jews, although some of them were probably also Roman citizens. Certainly by Paul's time a great many, if not most, were provincial Romans. By the time of Luke the majority of Christians were Roman, to such an extent that anti-semitism began to promote the notion that the Jews, and not the Romans, were responsible for the crucifixion.

-Scott

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 14:06:18 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Romans again
Message:
Hi Scott,

Like you infer in your post, 'Roman' meant a citizen of Rome. This meant that you could come from anywhere in the Empire, so there were British Romans, Germanic Romans, French Romans, African Romans, Asian Romans etc.

By the end of the Roman Empire, most of their troops and Generals were Germanic.

Anth the Oppressed Celt.

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 22:07:48 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: First Christians
Message:
S:

I went to 12 years of Catholic School, and although I can't remember the exact time or teacher, my classmates and I knew that the 'Jews killed Jesus.' Hey, if you want to check out Catholic anti-semitism, read about Pope Pius XII (the pope during WWII).

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 23:55:39 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Catholic Anti-Semitism
Message:
Not to metion the anti-semetic and pro-nazi Father Coughlin, who had a very popular radio program in the 30s in the US.

I understand that the current feeble pope has been publicly apologizing for the legendary anti-semitism in the Catholic church, I guess up to and including that of Pius XII.

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 14:15:00 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: JW & Monmot
Subject: Catholic Anti-Semitism
Message:
Hi,

Did you know that at the end of World War 2, the most notorious surviving Nazi war criminals (Eichmann, Borman etc) were transported out of Europe, to South America, in a combined operation between the American Secret Service and the Catholic Church.

They were held in transit camps, in or near Yugoslavia. It was part of a deal with the Archbishop of Croatia, a virulent fascist, who supported extermination of both Jews and Orthodox Serbs, in Croatia in World War 2. (Croatia achieved what Germany didn't- total extermination of its Jews).

Anyway, they did a deal because there was a right wing catholic organisation that the CIA wanted to use, which had a base in each of the new Eastern Block countries.

The organisation was put at the American's disposal, in return for safe passages for the Nazi war criminals. They were shipped from these transit camps, to a monastry in the Vatican, where Red Cross passports were arranged. They then went off to South America with their new identies.

Anth the Historian.

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 14:29:15 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Catholic Anti-Semitism
Message:
Anth,

I hadn't heard about that particular case, but I've heard about a number of Nazi scientists and leaders who were smuggled out of Europe to the US and South America by the Church, through monestaries in France. Despite the brutality of the Nazis, the Catholic Church was always much more upset about Communisum because of its atheism and supression of the church. Hence, the Church got caught up in the Cold War mentality that gripped the US and became an accomplice.

I think because of the current Pope's experience in Poland under the Communist governments, he had a big blind spot about Liberation Theology and events in Central and South America. Because the Sandanistas were, for example, Marxist, the Church sided with the elites against the revolutionary movements there, despite the awful atrocities of dictators like Samoza.

JW

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 15:31:38 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Catholic Anti-Semitism
Message:
The Catholic Church could apologize all day, every day for the rest of its existence and assuage perhaps only their guilt, but I cut them no slack. When I hear these WWII/Nazi stories, or read about the Inquisition etc., I really think the Church is evil: men of God doing the work of the devil--the ultimate irony. I know some priest/nuns/lay workers of the Liberation Theology persuasion are trying to do 'good,' but the Church even goes after them.
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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 18:45:06 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Catholic Church Positions
Message:
I am kind of torn sometimes. The church comes out sometimes with these great, progressive, positions on labor, redistribution of the wealth, civil rights and social welfare programs. Then they come out with reactionary positions, sometimes Medieval and nutty positions, on the role or women, birth control, abortion, gay rights, and academic freedom in Catholic universities.

And I know it hasn't been uniform, but now that this conservative Pope has been in office for so many years, and he has appointed so many bishops and carinals, it's likely the church will stay the way it is for a long time. For example, both San Francisco and Seattle used to have very progressive bishops. Bishop Quinn in SF wouldn't directly disagree with the Church on ministering to gays and lesbians, but he did everything just shy of that. He has now been replaced by a more conservative bishop. The Catholic Church is now contributing money to the 'Knight Initiative' (Prop 22) that will prevent California from recognizing a gay marriage performed in any other state, such as Vermont, and jeopardizes California's domestic partner law, that just went into effect this week (thanks to Pete Wilson finally being out of office).

In Seattle, the bishop there was very active in the anti-nuclear movement and was publicly criticized by the pope and then also replaced.

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 14:54:41 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Power and the Church.
Message:
Hi Joe,

I think history shows us that massive organisations like 'the Church', or individual nations, will do anything, and get in bed with anyone to survive.

Morality has as much influence on this stage as a gnats fart in a hurricane.

Anth the Gnat.

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 06:50:01 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Catholic Anti-Semitism
Message:
JW:

I could go on and on about the Catholic Church. When you were a kid, did you ever see the Bishop Sheen show? The influence of the Bishops and Cardinals, particularly on the East Coast, was, and is in retrospect, frightening to consider and behold. I was confirmed by Richard Cardinal Cushing, the personal friend and confidante of the Kennedy clan (we can only imagine the confidences Joe Kennedy laid at the feet of the Cardinal). He almost knocked me out when he slapped me in the face (for the uninitiated, this is part of the Confirmation ritual--after all, my schoolmates and I were becoming Soldiers of Christ). He really belted all the kids at the communion rail. Afterwards when he was standing outside, I went up to him (I probably wanted to belt him back), and he put out his hand adorned with this humongous ring on his finger, and held it in front of my face until I kissed it. The history of the Catholic Church is the history of infamy, IMHO, one which underscores the evil done in the name of God. The only reason Galileo wasn't put to death is that he was the childhood friend of the Pope. But he was under house arrest for at least ten years until his death. The Church thought that heliocentrism would diminish the power of the Church. Of course, I think they do a great job themselves of diminishing their own power, but that's my opinion. Unfortunately, the antediluvian attitudes of the Church still attract many adherents, much to my astonishment.

Rant over (for now).

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 04:59:38 (GMT)
From: Michael
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Catholic Anti-Semitism
Message:
Christianity was anti-semetic after 70 AD with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. The split between those who saw Jesus as the Messiah and those who didn't was pretty secure by then. There is a description of an early persecution by Hellenistic Jews against the followers of The Way in Acts 8:1, and 9:1. According to Josephus, some blamed the destruction of Jerusalem on those who killed James, the bishop of Jerusalem, who was also the brother of Jesus. There was no Catholic Church at that time. Later, the remnants of the Jerusalem Church were considered heretics and called the Ebionites, or the Poor. The anti-semetism of the Church is something that will takes years to correct.
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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 18:47:36 (GMT)
From: Perry Mason
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: The Romans
Message:
The Romans also gave us the basis for our judicial system and their language is also the basis of ours. Their engineering accomplishments are pretty impressive as well. The vault, the arch, and those incredible aquaducts and water systems. I also like the idea of the vomitorium, but for some reason that didn't catch on.
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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 20:14:34 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Perry Mason
Subject: Yeah but...
Message:
...besides all that, what did they ever do for us?

Anth the Celt

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 21:50:31 (GMT)
From: Perry Mason
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Yeah but...
Message:
They have provided numerous tourist attactions throughout the Mediterranean, providing needed tourist dollars to Italy, Spain and France. And if it weren't for the Romans, we never would have had that very funny musical, 'A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum.' Somehow I think if it was based on Berlin in the 40s, something like 'A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Ovens,' it wouldn't have been nearly as funny.
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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 19:02:45 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Perry Mason
Subject: The Romans
Message:

gerry responded:
English is a Germanic language, not Italic. And I believe our laws are based on the Greek tradition. But they were great engineers, no doubt, but a lot of their ideas were borrowed from Greece.
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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 23:51:09 (GMT)
From: Perry Mason
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: The Romans
Message:
Sorry, although German words are included in English, the basis of of all the Romance languages, English, as well as French, Spanish and Protugese, is Latin.

The legal system is definitely Roman. The Romans codified laws (under Justinian, from which 'Justice' comes), and created the idea of legal precedent, on which the US and British legal systems are based.

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 14:24:52 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Perry Mason
Subject: English and Latin
Message:
Perry,

Gerry is definitely right on this one. English is a Germanic language, not a Latin language, like Italian, French and Spanish.

About 1500 years or so ago, the Anglo-Saxon invasion of Britain happened. Before that, most of the natives still spoke the various dialects of Celtic languages. (We didn't all switch to Latin when we became part of the Roman Empire).

The Anglo Saxons settled in the South East of Britain, and eventually squeezed the Celts down to Cornwall (and over to Brittany), into Wales, Northern Britain and Scotland. Their languages came to dominate.

Modern English, Dutch, Friesan, German, and the Scandinavian languages (except Finnish) are all from the Germanic family.

If you go back a bit further though Perry, say 4,000 years or so, Latin and German have the same root in the old Indo-European languages.

I could go on...

Anth the Linguistic Historian.

ps, did you know that about 30,000 years ago, everyone spoke the same language, and the vocabulary of that language is still embedded in all modern languages on Earth.

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 06:23:28 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Perry Mason
Subject: The Romans
Message:
Perry:

Re: The Romans codified laws (under Justinian, from which 'Justice' comes), and created the idea of legal precedent, on which the US and British legal systems are based.

I think it is generally recognized that statutory law derives from the Romans, while common law (including the concept of precedent and the so-called 'rule of law') was a rather unique invention of the British. This distinction has been made by most of the legal scholars I was reading a few years ago, and is still made by the Public Choice people. Hayek even went so far as to refer to the common law as an 'emergent phenomenon.' I can be convinced of another thesis, but would need to see something more than an assertion. If the Romans had a form of precedent it was very weak and non-binding.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 01:52:29 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Perry Mason
Subject: Come on, Perry
Message:
Actually you are wrong on both counts and I was wrong about the origins of our legal system. Our legal system has its roots in English common law, law which was 'discovered' through the court system, not from Roman influence.

And English is most definitely NOT a Romance language. It is a Germanic based language.

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 20:33:02 (GMT)
From: Michael
Email: None
To: gerry,Anth,Scott,& JW
Subject: The Romans
Message:
All this talk about the Romans is very nice, but my question is, did they have a flag?

The early Christians were not interested in any calendar, actually, as they believed that Christ was returning at any moment and that the Roman empire and their persecuters would all be destroyed. Those Christians who think that Jesus would return 2000 years after his birth think that God pays attention to calendars. Wouldn't it be better if Jesus returned 2000 years after his crucifixion and resurrection? That would put it about 2029 or so...

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 14:27:27 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Michael
Subject: Romano-Christians
Message:
Hi Michael,

Lots of the early christians were Romans. I think there was even a Christian emporer somewhere.

Anth the Pagan

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 16:21:17 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Romano-Christians
Message:
Anthe:

Re: Lots of the early christians were Romans. I think there was even a Christian emporer somewhere.

Constantine made Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire in the 4th century AD.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 18:05:22 (GMT)
From: Michael
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Romano-Christians
Message:
Actually, Constantine ended the persecutions and continued the edict of toleration issued by Galerius in 311. Constantine returned confiscated buildings and lands to the Church and also gave money to repair and improve basillicas, but I think it was Constantine's son who made it the official religion of the Empire.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 06, 2000 at 13:33:56 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Michael
Subject: Romano-Christians
Message:
Hi Michael,

Was this the time that the Roman Empire had split into at least two parts?

I get muddled up with all the Constantines.

Prehistory is my strongest area.

Anth the Paleolithic

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 22:08:50 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: freewheeling@bigfoot.com
To: Michael
Subject: The Romans
Message:
Michael:

Re: Wouldn't it be better if Jesus returned 2000 years after his crucifixion and resurrection?

Actually, it would be 'better' if he returned on Jan. 1, 2001 so that we could start the calendar dating all over again sensibly at 0, and avoid all this accounting nonsense.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 05:12:26 (GMT)
From: Michael
Email: mgdbach@hotmail.com
To: Scott T.
Subject: The Romans
Message:
Well, sheesh, Scott, who knows when he will return? How have you been? You've been away for a while! I am the former Mickey the Pharisee, now living in la República de Panamá and finishing my thesis which I will defend in March. What have you been up to? E-mail me if you feel so inclined. I was wondering what had happened to you.
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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 06:35:30 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: freewheeling@bigfoot.com
To: Michael
Subject: The Romans
Message:
Michael:

I've been lurking from time to time, and have been deeply involved in riding and designing lawn chair bicycles, commonly referred to as 'recumbents.' I completed my dissertation on congressional elections and campaign finance, and have been considering a follow up article. Have also been working on some school funding cases, and analysis of race and academic achievement.

Boy things must have changed alot in Panama recently. Bet there's a pretty deep thumbprint left though. I'll send you an email.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 20:54:46 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Michael
Subject: The Romans
Message:
I thought Jesus didn't really die on the cross. He lived, split to the South of France where he and Mary Magdalene had some children, which means there must be some descendants floating around somewhere. Certainly beats the pants off of clearing the temples of infidels. I'd much rather hang in France and eat brie and bread, quaff some fine French wine, smoke Gauloises and generally live the good life and not worry about calendars, or time, at all.
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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 02:23:39 (GMT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: The Romans
Message:
and work a 35 hour week like the french now do as of yesterday
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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 04:37:21 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: The Romans
Message:
AND, lest we forget, the mandatory five weeks per year vacation. That's one damn good reason for moving to Europe.
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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 02:35:00 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: The Romans
Message:

gerry responded:
I think this is great. We Americans are way over worked (well most of us are) and wages have steadily eroded for most workers since 1973.

The pigs at the head of the trough are ruining the American Dream for the rest of us. It's time for a change. A big change.

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 21:00:56 (GMT)
From: Michael
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: The Romans
Message:
So, when he returns, he'll be taking the concorde?
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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 21:15:39 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Michael
Subject: The Romans
Message:
If he's got half a brain, he will. The Concorde will part those clouds with alacrity. But why return?
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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 21:28:32 (GMT)
From: Christopher
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: The Romans
Message:
Check this quote:

'No god was ever sent to earth to transfigure man by saving him the evolutionary work of transfiguring himself. And no man will be rightfully, happily, efficiently oriented to this task unless and until he knows that within his own mind and in his very body of flesh resides that Christ-child who is in fact his own sonship from his Father.

Through that realization, and through it only, can and will his entire dynamic of psychic energy be focused, like the sun’s rays through a lens, upon the seed-power of Christly consciousness and cause it to burst into flame. How sagely the ancient Egyptians spoke of the soul of Christhood coming to earth 'to kindle a fire in the underworld'.'

- Alvin Boyd Kuhn:
'The Case of the Missing Messiah'

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 21:58:55 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Christopher
Subject: The Romans
Message:
C:

Just did a quick speed-read through that one...what a mouthful, to say the least. Pretty damn interesting piece of work. Can't imagine the premises would go over big with the hoi polloi.

Liked this bit (the very last paragraph):

Under the seductive influences of pietistic religion the spirit of man has down the centuries yielded all too readily to priesthood’s glamorous siren exhortation to surrender all personal, all human initiative toward a diviner life and turn all the psychic power of
man’s nature outward in pleading to a divinity asserted to have lived in mortal form two thousand years ago. Jung has now sharply delineated the tragic error of this exhortation. Before him our oracular Emerson had enunciated the same profound truth. Said he: 'Man is weak to the extent that he looks outside himself for help. It is only as he
throws himself unhesitatingly upon the God within himself that he learns his own power and works miracles. It is only when he throws overboard all other props and leans solely upon the God in him that he uncovers his real powers and finds the springs of success.'

I think most exes can relate to that.

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 18:35:21 (GMT)
From: christopher
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Alvin Boyd Kuhn
Message:

christopher responded:
Hi there, Mon (or should I say 'hoots'?)

Yeah, Kuhn is just a wee bit verbose for this day and age, and perhaps not the best author to practice speed-reading on ( - his literary style sometimes reminds me of the American eagle character on the Muppet show!)

But I'm slowly digesting his message a bit at a time, and enjoying the new (for me) ideas.

I admire his courage in claiming '...that Christianity was originated in ignorance and was exploited and perpetuated by ignorance.' And he was well aware that his ideas wouldn't go down well with the theologians: '...the task of bringing the academic world to recognize and admit its colossal error will seem hopeless.'

While we're throwing quotes at each other, here's another of his to chew on:

'Human life is largely a conflict between fixated persuasions, indoctrinations, established norms and dispositions of the collective mass-mind, on the one side, and sound reason on the other, and the latter often remains bound in subservience to the sway of the former for ages in spite of obvious considerations to the contrary.'

Fixated persuasions? If only PWK could take that idea on board for a moment without projecting it back onto us exes.

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 20:22:32 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: christopher
Subject: Alvin Boyd Kuhn
Message:
C:

What's hoots? I am curious (yellow).

M

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 20:39:32 (GMT)
From: Christopher
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Hoots?
Message:

Christopher responded:
Think Scottish.

But why yellow? The movie?

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 21:07:43 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Christopher
Subject: Hoots?
Message:
Yes, the movie. A little free associating on my part. I'll put on my tam 'o shanter and try to crack the code on hoots and, perhaps, read a little Golf in the Kingdom to get in the mood :-)).
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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 07:08:59 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: The Romans
Message:
Monmot:

Re: I think most exes can relate to that.

Not me. To me it just looks like yet another magic bullet. I'm wary of writers who have such an obvious axe to grind, and whose language is so bombastic. I prefor Max Weber's analysis of religion to Jung's anyway. Jung was a psychologist who simply did not understand societies, or the way the operate. As a result he elevated individualism to something like a fetish.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 07:38:56 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: The Romans
Message:
S:
Definitely agree with you on the language, bombastic and Latinate to the extreme. I am unfamiliar with Weber's views and analysis of religion, so I can't comment on that, but it sounds like it could be interesting (feel free to recommend books). Overall, I've always enjoyed Jung's take on things, and think he has provided some much needed insight, and I agree with you about his elevation of individualism. He lived his life that way, and caused much psychic and psychological pain to his wife. I'm not sure if he did, or wanted to, have his mistress live with him and his wife, but it was a serious problem in his personal life. Given the times in which he lived, perhaps such stark and extreme individualism was a necessary next step for human beings, and now that it appears we (Americans) have taken it to its limit (or have we?), the time is ripe for some retrenchment and a return to a more socially based way of life. Obviously, this is a large and complex topic, and my comments are miniscule in relation to such issues.

That said, I still think that people turning inward and finding power within themselves is far healthier than relying on outside influences and forces. Like anything in life, it's all a high-wire balancing act. What may be necessary in order to individuate as a human being, may work against one after the process arrives at a certain point. What's difficult is knowing when to shift gears in order to progress as a person and not get stuck in a 'me myself and I' rut.

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 16:15:16 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: The Romans
Message:
Monmot:

Re: That said, I still think that people turning inward and finding power within themselves is far healthier than relying on outside influences and forces. Like anything in life, it's all a high-wire balancing act.

Fair enough. I'm a bit concerned about the extent to which people have accepted the notion that we're now in a 'new millenium,' when it is so easily challenged and disproved. It's not that the issue itself is so important, but the lack of descrimination might be. The fact is that the rollover and the start of the third millenium are asynchronous, so we have imposed a synchronization that doesn't actually exist. I saw an interesting program recently on Joel Rifken. He apparently lacks an ability to deal with asynchronous events, something that afflicts many sociopaths. Maybe I'm making a mountain out of a molehill, but I don't find the situation encouraging at all. I'm afraid we'd be unable to tell the difference between a Hitler and a Washington in the early stages of their careers, and I think we have either a Hitler or a Washington in our future. Charismatic leaders are both essential and dangerous.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 16:47:32 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: The Romans
Message:
'He apparently lacks an ability to deal with asynchronous events, something that afflicts many sociopaths.'

I've never put those two together. Does it have to do with control? Interesting. I think the lack of discrimination you speak about is because our culture has become addicted to sound/visual bites which prepackage our thinking for us. All hat, no cattle, so to speak.

BTW, can you recommend a book by/about Weber?

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 17:33:00 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: The Romans
Message:

Scott T. responded:
Monmot:

I'm not sure what the argument is that links the malady to sociopathic behavior, but as a recall it has to do with a lack of self control, or the inability to control the violent impulses that we all have but that are managed by the higher nervous system. It is very interesting research.

There are quite a few books by and about Max Weber. He died young, however, so never actually completed his great work. The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism is considered a classic. There's another book called The Sociology of Religion which is a compilation of a number of different articles translated from Gemeinshaft und Geselleshaft. He invented the concept of the 'ideal type,' as well as the notion of charismatic, traditional, and legal/rational legitimation.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 17:44:06 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Thanks (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 08:06:31 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Everyone
Subject: Kludge it with Proxomitron
Message:
I've been using Proxomitron on Forum IV and even that other place (shudder) where I was able to change the once horrid colors of hell back to the yellow background and black text that I need to have in order to read. Hell, you can even install your own background instead of that happy little snow scene.

But, better still is the ability within Proxomitron to modify the incoming HTML and have it your own way. In particular you can stop using that damn mouse and use keyboard accesskeys to goto the next message, the previous message, the next thread, the previous thread, the Active Index, start a new message, the submit button and even more. In fact, I no longer have to fill in my name or my email address and the skip preview checkbox is always checked.

Right now I know that you are probably asking yourself 'how much will this cost me?' Well, because I survived Y2K and didn't have to shoot any roving bands of looters with my AK-47 I'm feeling very generous and am giving this priceless gift away for free. You can get on my mailing list where you will be reminded periodically to send me gifts.

So, what do you have to do?

First, you've got to be running Proxomitron and in order to do that you must be a fan of the female band from Japan called Shonen Knife. Luckily for me, I was already a fan.

You need to download, install, and be running the latest version of Proxomitron (link below.)

And you need to download my little Forum V mini config file (link below) and merge that file into the default config file and then Save the config file. This can all be done very easily on the Proxomitron File option on the menubar.

You will also absolutely postively have to edit, using the Proxomitron editor, the following Web page filters:

1. _Forum V Email Field Replacement
Change 'your_email_goes_here' to your email address.

2. _Forum V From Field Replacement
Change 'your_name_goes_here' to your name (eg. Bim Doubtfire, Frank, etc.)

And don't forget to save your changes by saving the config file under the File option on the menubar of Proxomitron or your changes will be lost.

Now, you might see that I have some strange keyboard shortcuts and you can change them if you want. The letter of the keyboard shortcut will appear somewhere in the text describing the button or link (actually I did not provide an accesskey for the checkbox for skip to Preview) and the key will be surrounded by parenthesis. For example, Active (I)ndex indicates that alt-i will click that link. Actually, the action you get may depend on which browser you're using. I am using IE 4.nn and just by doing the accesskey combination it fires that link or button. I believe that with IE 5.nn, which I refuse to install, you might have to also hit the ENTER key to fire the link.

My accesskey shortcuts that are not mnemonic are for Next Message and Previous Message where I use c and x, respectively. I find that these most used buttons are the most efficient and ergonomic.

Finally, you can get fancy and change the filters to use HTML underline instead of the parens so that it will look just like your OS, but only do this if you have set your browser to underline links on hover. And if you're looking at your browser and every link if underlined you are really overloading your screen with way too much clutter. The damn links (if propery color coded in relation to the back) are going to show up in different colors that indicate that they are links.

For example: Active (I)ndex would be changed in the Proxomitron editor for that filter to be Active Index.

Hit the following link and save the file to disk:

Roger eDrek's Proxomitron Config File with Accesskey Filters for Forum V that you can merge into the default configuration file by using Merge config filters under File on the menubar.

Get Proxomitron Here. Please read the installation instructions. It's pretty easy. Basically, you need to run Proxomitron before launching your browser and your browser has to be told to use 'localhost:8080' as it's proxy. Don't worry, Proxomitron allows you to chain proxies so if you really feel the need to have it look like your ISP is in Norway it can be done.

Warnings and other legal notices:

I just made some changes to tighten up the search expressions. I tested them, but if there is a mistake let me know and I will fix.

This offer is not valid in Norway or Australia or to anyone attending the OU (not Oxford) in the UK.

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 16:32:58 (GMT)
From: Coach
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Kludge it with Proxomitron
Message:
Roger

What the hell are you talkin' about? Will this new fangled 'Positron' help defeat the Klingons.

Coach

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 17:53:00 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Coach
Subject: Wire brush and Dettol.
Message:
Coach,

the only way to defeat the klingons is 'wire brush and Dettol'.

Anth the disinfected.

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 18:10:30 (GMT)
From: Coach
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Wire brush and Dettol.
Message:

Coach responded:
AJW

I bet that stings a bit.

Coach

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 20:27:49 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Coach
Subject: Wire brush and Dettol.
Message:
Coach,

We of the Western Isles are Warriors.

We feel no pain.

Pass the mead and sharpen your sword. We'll lay an ambush outside the video event tonight.

Anth the Oops Gave the Game Away.

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 20:40:49 (GMT)
From: Coach
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Wire brush and Dettol.
Message:
AJW,

You should be so lucky. We of the Northern Isles have no such sport to amuse ourselves. Video diruption has all but gone the way of foxhuntin'.
All that remains are a few elderly druids in robes fiddling with projectors and giving out announcments to themselves while dreaming of a bygone cult.

Coach

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 08:54:09 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Correct link to get F5 Config
Message:
I sure enjoyed the ability to edit my messages and apologize for the mistake I just made.

the correct link to get the F5 Proxomitron Kludge is:

f5_fix_default.cfg

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 08:47:58 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Minor Correction - Nope BUG!
Message:
Well, I've got me the first bug! No, not a stopper, but some functionality loss.

I tried using HTML Special Characters to represent the 'less than' and 'greater than' signs by using the standard ampersand-name-semicolon, but the ampersand gets special charactered in the translation. And something else might be going on in the translation as well.

This works on Paradise as expected.

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 09:53:58 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Probably a feature, but...
Message:
Well, technically it's a feature, but I'm not sure of the need for such a feature. Anyway, the forum software will not accept a message with a string that is not delimitted with spaces or some other character if the string is 50 characters or more.

This makes posting a long URL impossible.

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 13:03:04 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Probably a feature, but...
Message:
Roger,

Is it true that talking to yourself on the internet makes you go cyber-blind?

Happy Nude Year,

Anth the Clockwork.

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 14:15:14 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Probably a feature, but...
Message:
God Anth this was so funny! I don't say that as a means of taking sides on any issues that are involving Roger now, that is my disclaimer. I don't wish anyone bad anything but your post was hysterical. You know I just love you!
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 14:32:55 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: I'd never offend Drek
Message:
Robyn,

How could I do anything to offend the Raucous Ribald Raconteur Roger.

He's my first publisher in cyberspace.

I owe him everything.

The House of Drek is indeed a mighty monument of modern literature.

Anth the Doesn't Bite the Hand that Feeds Him.

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 16:13:42 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: I'd never offend Drek
Message:
Dear Anth,
Sorry, I should have been more clear. How could anyone ever find you offensive!? No, I just haven't communicated with Rog through all the arguing that has been going on and didn't want him to think that I found you post hysterical because I feel negatively about him, that's all.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Jan 06, 2000 at 14:13:27 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Hmmmm...
Message:
Hmmmmm Robyn,

Do I detect a little 'history' here.

Don't tell me you got involved in one of those Trans-Atlantic 'Forum Food Fights', and got one in the kisser from old Rog'.

I bet you gave him one back too.

Roger is a kind soul at heart Robyn, just like you.

And here we are with a new forum, a new year and a new start.

Why don't we try to leave all the garbage behind. I'm sure there's plenty of fresh stuff waiting to pile up, or drop on our heads even.

Come on you two. Kiss and make up.

Anth the Lover of Little Kittens and Golden Keys Under Leaves.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 06, 2000 at 16:49:01 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Hmmmm...
Message:
Dear Anth,
The only 'history' Rog and I have is a good one! We just haven't been in touch on or off the forum in awhile and with all that has been going on with him on AG I just didn't want him to feel my good feelings for him changed.
I don't have problems with most people and those very few I do, I stay away from and am successful other then occassional outburst. :)
Hell that is what some people don't like about me, I think, I am TO nice! I'll take that as a complement. Rog and I have never fought and I like him.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 10:11:38 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Phew...(nt)
Message:
there is absolutely no text in this message whatsoever.

Shit, there is now.

Still, maybe they won't read it and I won't look a fool after all.

Anth the keep taking the tablets.

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 03:41:22 (GMT)
From: Michael
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Forum V
Message:
Well, this new place seems alright; folks seem to be finding their way here, but I am wondering how long will it be until the Ya'qubs and Deputy Dog types find their way here? Just curious...
Michael

PS Hey, RT and Gerry, are you guys eating a lot of beef jerkey since the collapse of civilization failed? :)

¡El Canal es Nuestro! Well, not mine, but everyone else in my neighborhood!

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 04:21:00 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Forum V
Message:
Once again Michael has demonstrated his breadth of knowledge and experience of the spiritual dimension. His post is an open-hearted, unique blend of poetry, psychological insight, and simple life wisdom.

Deputy Dog

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 05:14:20 (GMT)
From: Michael
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Forum V
Message:
Bite me, doggy-boy!
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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 05:27:49 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Michael
Subject: Forum V
Message:
God bless you Michael,

Your posts are always friendly, warm and eminently useful. Your wonderful stories and personal anecdotes are always top notch. You are a ideal example of what it means to be a priest.

Dep

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 05:30:55 (GMT)
From: Michael
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Forum V
Message:
Hey, I thought you weren't going to respond to my posts! What happened, spiritually superiour guy?
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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 19:17:46 (GMT)
From: Christopher
Email: None
To: Michael
Subject: Dog or Droopy?
Message:
Dog does like to leave a little 'calling card' every now and then, doesn't he?

Too bad this ain't his territory he's marking.

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 20:14:45 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Christopher
Subject: Dog!
Message:

Deputy Dog responded:
Christopher,

Last time I checked this was a forum. I don't go on the exes only site. And I haven't been barred! So that means I have just as much right here as you do.

The only difference between me and most exes is that Knowledge makes me feel secure in the the face of the unknowable, unnameable, and everchanging river of life.

There I go being poetic again.

Dep

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Date: Thurs, Jan 06, 2000 at 14:25:05 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Wrong Dog!
Message:
Hi Dog,

This is a forum for Ex-premies, and premies on the way out of the cult. It's not an open Free For All, where anyone can spout what the hell they like.

It's certainly not a forum for premies who come here to disrupt, or spout their cultish beliefs.

Premies are only tolerated if they remember their manners.

If you're a premie, which I believe you are, you don't have as much right here as Michael. The forum was created, and is run, for Ex-premies, not premies.

You're here as our guest, at our sufferance.

Premie websites don't even let premies discuss events, knowledge and Maharaji, let alone Ex-premies.

Anth the Ex

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Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 04:04:07 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Wrong Dog!
Message:

Deputy Dog responded:
AJ,

I stand corrected! The word forum however does mean 'a public meeting place for open discussion, a public meeting involving audience discussion.'

I do spout what the hell I like here, but it's not to disrupt, it's to communicate. I just have to say something to balance the scale. And I know about premie websites, that's why I don't visit them.

So thanks for allowing me to post here, I appreciate it, and I'm reasonable well mannered don't you think? If it gets too much you can always barr me like you did with Catweasel.

Dep the Stay the Course, Would't be Prudent to Stop Practising at this Juncture, Thousand Points of Light

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Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 10:14:29 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: No Problem Dog!
Message:
...pull up a chair, make yourself comfortable while we deprogram you.

Anth the Charming Host

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Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 15:07:07 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: No Problem AJ!
Message:
...did you say deprogram or reprogram?.

Dep the Persistent and Grateful Guest

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 20:27:24 (GMT)
From: Christopher
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Definitely no hero
Message:
DD,

I'm amazed the spiel hasn't changed much from the seventies. ... 'secure in the face of the ... everchanging river of life' you say?

A few threads back ('Cult phobia') you were 'talking about that which doesn't change'.

How about investing a bit of meaning into the words next time?

Please?

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 05:00:48 (GMT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Michael
Subject: Guess what's for dinner
Message:
Now what am I going to do with 6000 pounds of rice and beans ???

Hey Padre, how can we get 'em down south your way?

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 14:02:30 (GMT)
From: Michael
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Guess what's for dinner
Message:
That is pretty much what we eat, along with fish! Maybe you can throw a Block Party Thursday for the Feast of the Epiphany; hide a coin in the beans and announce that whoever finds it is King or Queen (or both if that is their orientation) of the neighborhood for the year. You could start a new tradition!!
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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 15:22:14 (GMT)
From: Gerry
Email: glyng@techline.com
To: Michael
Subject: Guess what's for dinner
Message:
OK no rice and beans. Padre, what could you use down there? Clothing? I'll bet there's a lot of raggedy little uns there. Let me know, please. E-mail por favor.
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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 00:51:42 (GMT)
From: video dude
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: hamster alert
Message:
Word on the street is that the hamster will make an address on Jan. 16 at 4pm on the video channel. It may be something small, rather than a program.Rumor is it's being done to deal with current confusion and lack of participation among the faithful.
Will be interesting to get a review on this site later that date...
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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 09:20:27 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: video dude
Subject: The hamster doesn't listen!
Message:
Looks like he's not understood yet that his 'message' is empty and, except for the hard core (less than 10% of the present remaining attendees) most premies don't care much for TV/videos at home, and are not ready to give a dime to Visions in order to get his ass' face on their TV.

What they like is getting together, and all the business around the meetings. He's going to lose more than 50% of his clients, like in the 80s. Many of the remaining premies are already involved in other groups, many of them are busy with their lives and wouldn't come more than once or twice a month anyway to watch a video in a hall, and they'll leave for good.

His little cult is doomed anyway. He'll have to be a real good meditation teacher to survive as a 'teacher'!

Just my opinion.

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 10:26:35 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: The hamster doesnt listen
Message:
Jean-Michel, I'm worried about you. This is the second time I've seen you use foul language - ass'face. Is your computer having Y2K problems? I think that you should buy me a ticket to France and I'll come and help out. Better make it sometime this coming spring (when Marianne is there) as I've never really enjoyed myself during the winter season in France. And maybe a nice hotel in Paris for a few weeks so that I can acclimatize. Another week in the South of France would be nice to if I don't run into my damn junkie friend, Keith Richards. Perhaps, just as far as Arles would be better for Keith and myself.

Back to the topic:

I was thinking that the premies might not want to make the financial committment to getting the dish, the service, and the pay-per-view, but as a recent-ex I was making regular contributions to the national organization and the local community organization. And as you know the local community was solely responsible for paying for the hall, equipment and video subscription. Therefore, many premies have already made the financial committment to view videos.

But, there goes whatever social attraction and function. Perhaps, Maharaji sees it best for premies if they do not socialize and focus instead only upon his horse's ass of a face - liver spots, moles, warts and all. I think that future videos of Maharaji will have a lot more of him singing and playing his own music. No, the music will be from the can. Yeah, now (as I slip into porno mode) that would be something I'd gladly pay for - Maharaji singing in the can. His golden can!

Maharaji, how can we ever thank you? You've given us so much. How many on this planet know so much about you? We have been graced by this Knowledge. Such a wonderful gift you bestowed upon us! How grateful we should be to have an never ending source of divine comedy. The King of Comedy is he, Maharaji! I think I'm feeling a song coming on here. Off to the can I go. Off to the works to get my work done. Dirty, smelly with busted seat. Jiggle the handle to make it stop. But, you know? It's mine. All mine. I never had my own toilet when I lived in the ashram. Had to queue up in the hall for up to 20 minutes waiting and waiting. Oh, yes, of course I WAS remembering Holy Name. I wasn't the spaced out guy who never flushed it down. Not me. Sure, they tried to pin it on me. Hmmm, an enema sounds nice about now. Have to run. Ta, ta!

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 01:47:27 (GMT)
From: Sir David
Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk
To: video dude
Subject: hamster alert
Message:
Does that mean that British premies will have to miss the 9 o'clock news that day?

Anyway, I'm pleased to see that they've got the correct time on this forum. Finally we are getting somewhere.

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 05:58:52 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Sir David
Subject: The time at the tone is...
Message:
Goddamn it! Why are we kowtowing to the Empire again? The time should represent the time in Washington, D.C. While I am an expatriate, I appreciate the fact that the U.S. saved the entire world from Y2K.

Now what am I going to do with two AK-47s and 5000 rounds, eight cases of MREs, a Soviet made flame thrower, and 1000 gallons of water?

P.S. to Panama: The U.S. and the one world government allows you to believe that the canal is yours. In a matter of hours it can be, once again, under control of the U.S.

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 16:35:43 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: The time at the tone is...
Message:
Roger:

Goddamn it! Why are we kowtowing to the Empire again? The time should represent the time in Washington, D.C. While I am an expatriate, I appreciate the fact that the U.S. saved the entire world from Y2K.

I'm with you on this one, purely for the sake of my own convenience. And I think it would be safe to blame the Y2K thing on the British too, since they invented the computer in the first place.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 18:12:58 (GMT)
From: Mr Wizard
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: who invented what
Message:
No, the English didn't invent the computer. It was the French! Specifically, Pascal. I used to teach a class on this stuff..but, so what.
The dinosaurs were sentient. They all became realized beings and left the planet to the mammals as a joke. Sheesh.
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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 05:25:31 (GMT)
From: Michael
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: The time at the tone is...
Message:
Ya'all aint gonna come and grab our presidente, are ya? We're still rebuilding Choria from your last visit, Mr. Bush.
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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 00:43:39 (GMT)
From: michael
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: anything can happen
Message:
I found this http://www.awakening.net/Epiphany.html and think that it is interesting.
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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 12:48:16 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: michael
Subject: Spritual Claptrap (nt)
Message:
loads of it.
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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 01:54:14 (GMT)
From: michael
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Claptrap happens
Message:
You noticed. Claptrap happens. What about the underlying experience?
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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 14:51:08 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: michael
Subject: Where's my pistol?
Message:
Hi michael,

Did you ever hear that quote from, I think it was Heinrich Himmler, 'When I hear the word 'culture' I reach for my pistol.

I feel similar when I hear the word 'experience'.

This may be because the word is so badly abused by premies and Maharaji and I've become allergic to it.

Isn't everything anyone does an 'experience'. So it follows, that to have an experience, it must be an experience of 'something'. (Like to have 'heat' you need something to be hot.)

So what about 'spiritual experiences'. Only believers have spiritual experiences. Non-believers can have similar experiences (out of body for example), and they call them something else, that's not spiritual.

All too often, someone who describes a 'spiritual experience' does it with an angle. It's kind of understood that the experience they describe, you don't have, and really you should try to get it. This often means becoming a believer too.

michael, I'm not trying to say people don't have 'spiritual experiences' or anything. I'm sure they do. There's mountains of beautiful literature about them.

Having been through a bigtime cult experience, and laid my own 'cosmic moments' on people, as part of the cult trip, I'm very wary of all things 'inner' 'spiritual' 'experiences'.

Anth the Outer

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 19:04:19 (GMT)
From: carol the crazed
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Put it back in your pocket!
Message:
Don't you attack my 'brother' michael the demented! Or I'll use your pistol on you!

Don't throw out the baby with the bath water!!! Words are always getting in the way of communication....What words would you use?

You could call 'experience' any number of things: 'something that I thought or felt or which seemed to just happen', what happened or a phenomona, 'the miracle of life expressing itself', an 'epiphany, 'satori', 'samadi', a dream, an awakening, etc. etc. The words don't matter that much!

Words are wonderful! I love words! But it's the message that is important. A human being is trying to share with you and insight that he feels is helpful, or funny, or worth 'talking' about.

What does culture mean to you? Isn't it understood to refer to the particular sets of shared 'experiences' among people in , and influenced by the places and societies in which we live. Do we have to explain it at length or not use a word, in order to keep you from flinching at it because of your own reaction/bias/bad memory or association? Change your perspective to fit the situation, and try to bridge the gap, no the chasm, we create by our rigidity and duality!

The question really is: have you ever had a ---fill in the blank----- like that? It is the same for people who fight over what they call G.O.D. and it is ridiculous!!! A waste of your time and enegy.

Get over your reactiveness to words and try to embrace the gist of what a person is trying, however pitifully they try to express it!!!

Carol the crazed, caring, creature-loving fool, confidently cajoling the caring out of you!

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Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 10:24:48 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: carol the crazed
Subject: Put it back in your pocket!
Message:
Hi carol the crazed,

I'm not attacking anyone carol.

But your post doesn't explain to me what 'experience' means, when not describing another activity.

Let's try it another way, out of everything we've done in life, what WASN'T an experience?

All I'm saying is, to have an experience, it has to be an experience of something. I'm not saying you shouldn't use the word, merely use it in a way so I know what the hell you're talking about. For example, I'm not sure if you're claiming licking snot is somehow related to 'samadhi' or 'satori' whatever the hell those two words mean. (If asked to translate, I'd come up with something like, 'Paralyticly drunk', but I'm a cynic).

The only 'fill in the blank' type experiences I've had have been when I've completed a form or questionaire.

I'm not trying to embrace what anyone is saying, simply understand what they're on about.

Anth the Etymologist.

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 16:51:01 (GMT)
From: michael
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Where's my pistol?
Message:
Very well put, AJW. I agree whole heartedly with you. Words like spiritual, god, holy, divine, etc. are way overused and as far as I'm concerned way overblown. I remember all too well that there were people back in my dlm days who used words like knowledge, satsang, realize, ego death, and in your mind to shut down and invalidate and control other people's lives and experiences. That really sucked.

All too often people want to control other people just to validate themselves. I too have been guilty of trying to do this. Fortunately, it was not very comfortable and I learned (am still learning sometimes)to stop it. Life, for me, is much easier and more interesting when I just focus more on my experience and 'allow' others to have thier own.

I have learned that when I use words like spiritual, holy, god conciousness etc. to describe my experiences, I get real stupid real fast. I think it is a side effect of having been a Baptist, a Mennonite, a Catholic, and a premie.

So, when I find an interesting web site and share it here, it's just a for your information kind of thing.

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Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 10:29:58 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: michael
Subject: Where's my pistol?
Message:
Hi michael,

You say you focus on your 'experience'. I'd ask, your experience of what?

Anth the Nit Picker.

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Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 15:24:15 (GMT)
From: michael
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Where's my pistol?
Message:
My experience of what, you ask. Life, dear Anth, and living.

As a young boy of twelve in Montana I looked up into the clear night sky and beheld a wonder, our galaxy!

Today I can look into the eyes of another human being and see a wonder, beauty!

Can I share my experiences with another? No, of course not. Do I need to validate my experience by seeking the acceptance of another? Again, no.

I believe that experience at its best produces learning. These are some of the things that I have learned from my premie experience:
a) to give your life over to someone else's power trip is not good
b) to seek within yourself is good
c) it is possible to use the truth to tell a lie

I am still working on my journey of my premie experience(s). So, I'll save the rest of the tale for that.

The truth is; I am, dear Anth, and so are you. As a Nit Picker you'll probably ask, am what? Why, we are buddha. No, no, no not THE BUDDHA, he's dead, just buddha. Awareness, conciousness, energy, flesh, gods and goddesses - experience. Tag, you're IT.

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 19:18:33 (GMT)
From: carol the counciliatory
Email: None
To: michael
Subject: Well said, me too, my friend
Message:
I had to hold myself back from saying 'my brother' with a twinkle in my eye and a smile. I can get pretty sarcastic myself about some of that 'have a nice day' and 'Jaisatchitananda' automated response, and in-group type of jargon. It is a continual challenge to communicate effectively. It is hard for me to know what is going to set someone off!

I certainly learned fast here on the Forum last year what it was that set Jim Heller off...anyone that said anything that sounded in the least 'new age' or about 'spiritual experience' was a target for poison arrows. But I dodged them, and Jim is a person I'd like to meet in person sometime!

Carol .......I really must get off here now!!!..................Bye

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 15:38:05 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Where's my pistol?
Message:
Anth:

I think it was Goebbels: 'When I hear the word 'art,' I reach for my revolver.'

Goebbels was chock full of juicy quotes like that one.

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Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 10:38:12 (GMT)
From: AJM
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Where's my Goebbels?
Message:
Hi Monmot,

The plot thickens. It probably was Goebbels (had two but very small).

The story I heard goes like this.

He said, 'When I hear the word culture, I reach for my Browning'.

Apparently he had a British 'Browning' handgun.

There is also a well known British poet called 'Robert Browning'.

So, ever since 1940, us Neo-Nazis have been debating whether he was talking about firarms or poetry.

Herr Anth the Rhyming Nazi.

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Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 23:08:33 (GMT)
From: Des Perado
Email: None
To: AJM
Subject: Gone Fishin'
Message:
This thread is frayed to breaking point. But look where it started! Doomed from the start.
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Date: Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 22:29:36 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Galaxy Quest (ot)
Message:
Go see the movie 'Galaxy Quest'! It is hilarious and quite touching in parts. I highly recommend it. Mickey the Pharisee I think of you b/c I know you are an MST3K fan.
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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 14:41:51 (GMT)
From: Tom Servo in Ireland -OT
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Helen
Subject: Galaxy Quest (ot)
Message:
Helen: Tom Servo here, visiting the lovely Emerald Isle for a few months!!!! I LOVE MST3K!!! In fact, for my birthday 4 years ago, my husband tried to get me MST3K license plates for my car. Someone already had it, so he got me 3K MST. People in the know recognize it and honk and wave all the time. Or at least they did when I was driving around SF. Now I'm in Cork.

|It is beautiful here. I got to see fireworks that went all over the border of Cork at midnight on new year's. I flew into Heathrow very early on the morning of the 30th, and the city was all lit up for y2k. Quite a site from the sky.

I'm checking out the new forum and the old one today. Hope you're all doing well. You can still email me at my regular aol address.

Love, Marianne

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 23:42:10 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: TOM SERVO
Message:
Tom Servo is cute but I think the other one is cuter (not Gypsy but the one made out of a bowling pin--Crow). That show is so hysterical, guaranteed a laugh for me and Gary. Glad you're enjoying Ireland. As me old Grandpa Ted used to say, now I'm forgettin' what he used to say but it had something to do with Scotch whiskey, anyway, he was Irish born and bred. Enjoy and give us details when you've got a chance!
Love
Helen
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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 18:08:13 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Murphys' Quest (ot)
Message:
Hi Marianne,

Welcome to civilisation.

Have you had a pint of Murphy's yet?

Have you found the fish bar in the indoor market where you can go behind the counter and eat fresh oysters yet?

Have you got drunk and fallen over yet?

take care, seeyousoon,

anth the corked.

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 13:16:43 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: AJW
Subject: Murphys' Quest (ot)
Message:
Anth, Bon Monmot, Robyn, Helen, & all: Well Anth, I went and looked in the encyclopedia under 'culture' and 'England' before I left SF, as you instructed me to do, and all I found was a picture of Boy George. Could you explain that to me?

I've been staying with my friend Maire and her family since I got here. They summer in France every year and come home with a large supply of French wine. We've been enjoying it quite a bit. Maire has 3 kids under the age of 8, so we haven't been out to the pubs much. Today I met my colleagues at the law school though, and they all seem to be the left-leaning, talkative, boisterous type, so I suspect they will be my pubmates in the very near future. I'm going to pace myself in anticipation of the Latvian club though!

Cork's beautiful. I love the rain and cold. It suits me fine.

Anth, what do you think Glen Whittaker would do if we dropped in to ask him about Jagdeo & the Charity Commission? Are there armed guards at the door to the EV offices? I think we ought to go and pay him a visit, don't you?

Yes, I have found the great fresh fish bar in the English Market!!!! When I was here a year ago, I made this wonderful cioppino (San Francisco fish stew to die for) for Maire and her family. If the Brits are lucky & interested, I will make it for them too.

Gotta go. My internal time clock's not fixed yet. I need a nap.

Love to all,
Marianne

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 15:04:06 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Murphys' Quest
Message:
Hi Marianne,

Boy George is Welsh.

And anyway, all that 'England' stuff is gone now. We're Europeans, not before time.

On the topic of Glen. I don't think marching up to his office in Brighton is a good idea. I know Glen quite well, and have always got on fine with him. If we wanted to talk to him, we could invite him round for dinner, but I wouldn't like to make him feel uncomfortable. I have asked him, in writing, first personally, then 'officially' about the Jagdeo incidents, so I know what his position is on it up to my last letter to him.

Also, in view of the fact the police are still investigating (I received an email from one of the officers recently, after sending him a copy of 'Abi's Story', they probably don't want to talk about it.

I think you're going to like it in Europe Marianne. Maybe we can get Jean Michel over, and have an international Latvian night.

Take care,

Anth the Irish Latvian

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 18:13:44 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Murphys' Quest (ot)
Message:
Marianne:

Anth's on to something here. If you don't turn into an alcoholic raconteur while in ole Eire, then you weren't fully partaking of the Hiberian pleasures.

Bon Monmot

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 15:57:34 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Tom Servo in Ireland -OT
Subject: Galaxy Quest (ot)
Message:
Dear Tom,
Glad to see you landed safely and had a good new year's celebration!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 03:32:15 (GMT)
From: Michael aka Mickey the P
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Galaxy Quest (ot)
Message:
Thanks for the recommendation, Helen, but what are the chances of this movie making it to Central America? Will I see it in español?
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Date: Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 23:29:44 (GMT)
From: michael
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: 'The show must go on'
Message:
this is just like episode 81 - oh no, i died in episode 81!
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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 03:48:28 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: michael
Subject: 'The show must go on'
Message:
You saw it! Wait which one of you Michaels is Mickey the Pharisee, or am I in some kind of parallel universe where everyone is named Michael?
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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 02:03:07 (GMT)
From: michael
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: St. Michael...the demented
Message:
I am the Michael Read. Who lived in NW Portland, OR. We are all god (GOD if you prefer) and we all participate in writing the script. Most of the time we forget. Some of us get way too carried away with all of the divinity bullshit and turn into real bad bit players (i.e. people of maharaji's ilk).

Me, I just try to stay as concious as I can, be compassionate, and find interesting things to do. Hooha!

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 03:17:56 (GMT)
From: Helen, ain't no saint
Email: None
To: michael
Subject: St. Michael...the demented
Message:
Well, your philosophy sounds good to me. I don't know if I feel like I participate in writing any script but my own. Our own influence only goes so far.
As for being conscious, I agree, it's what it's all about. Unfortunately most of us are by necessity caught up in the day to day nitty gritty of earning a living, raising families, trying to pay bills. But if we can have a little consciousness with it all I am all for it. One thing that hits me is that life is brief and short, and being that I beleive this is most likely 'it' I damn well better be conscious or I'll miss it, especiallyif I am unlucky enough to die before I live to a ripe old age.
Helen
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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 08:49:31 (GMT)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Helen, ain't no saint
Subject: and don't forget......
Message:
.......to laugh as often as possible! Hi Helen! I don't think we know eachother yet. I had lunch with St. Michael the Demented today! You are as much a Saint as he or I, you just don't believe it yet, or maybe you're not as crazy as us!!!
Check out the epiphany link michael left here somewhere.

....now change perspective and turn your head toward your left..I mean

right shoulder....... ( c ;

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 22:34:48 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: carol
Subject: Sainthood
Message:
Hi Carol
It's not that 'I just don't believe it yet' it's that I don't WANT to be a saint. Not in the agreed-upon definition of the word anyway. If there is a saint-hood for 'women in touch with their inner bitch', sign me up!

Now I am just messing with you! So don't think I am throwing a Jim Heller anti-spiritual poison dart at ya! I beleive in God (or as you put it so aptly in your journey I WANT to beleive in God), but I am one of those people suspicious about new age messages like 'all people are saints, they just don't know it yet.' I mean what does that mean? I think all people are people, some are kind, some are mean, and most of us are in between. The idea of sainthood is not appealing to me AT ALL. Maybe because I think people should not be put on pedestals, after all we have been there, done that, w/ Maharaji

You're not Carol who was in my knowledge session with me in Lansing MI, are ya?
Helen

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 05:14:09 (GMT)
From: michael
Email: None
To: Helen, ain't no saint
Subject: or was that the DEMENTED St...
Message:
Thank you, Helen. Yes, being in the nitty and the gritty is all that there is. One of my favorite roles to play is that of 'Charismatic Grandfather' to a beautiful three year old boy. He is a very good 'script consultant' to me. Watching and helping him grow (he lived with me until this last Thanksgiving day) has been a fantastic and in a sense mystical experience.
I have had many so called divine and mystical experiences during the last 50 years. Some of them have been definately of the 'Outer Limits' sort, some have been from 'Tales from the Crypt' and a majority might fall under the heading 'Lives of the Saints'. Now, I am coming to the conclusion that it is all just phenomena - read - stuff that happens.

It's a happening universe.

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 16:18:23 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: michael
Subject: or was that the DEMENTED St...
Message:
Dear michael,
Hi! I like what I've read from you here today. Just wanted to tell you that. And Carol, I love your face, ( c ; and nice to see you here again.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 04:11:09 (GMT)
From: Bobby the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: 'The show must go on'
Message:
Yes! Aliens in parallel universes r us!

That's funny, I was just the other day discussing mst3k - mystery science theatre 3000 with Robyn. When I watch videos I at times get into running commentary mode a la mst3k.

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 08:53:08 (GMT)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Bobby the Pharisee
Subject: Bobby!! mindspring Bobby??
Message:
Hi, how are you??? carol
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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 04:32:59 (GMT)
From: Robyn the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Bobby the Pharisee
Subject: 'The show must go on'
Message:
Dear Bobby,
That is it! It wasn't you I heard it from it was this or that recipe from Helen and her hubby in a collection of favorite recipes! :)
And for me, at least, the mystery is solved!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 04:38:19 (GMT)
From: Bobby the alien
Email: None
To: Robyn the Pharisee
Subject: 'The show must go on'
Message:
me no comprende.

what didn't you hear from me that you heard from Helen and Gary?
we were talking about mst3k and I think at that point you mentioned M the K.

what recipes, what mystery?

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 04:54:56 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Bobby the alien
Subject: 'The show must go on'
Message:
Dear Bobby,
I thought I'd heard you mention mst3k and the something mystery theater, in something you wrote but reading these posts I realized it was mentioned in a home made cookbook I got from Helen.
It was my own personal mystery dear, where I'd see that written. All sounds to silly to give so much explination too but there you have it. :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 05:16:03 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: midnight madness
Message:
Helen's Mystery Science 3000 meatloaf
&
Helen's Mystery Science 3000 tuna casserole
I knew exactly what you were talking about!
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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 04:17:21 (GMT)
From: Michael
Email: None
To: Bobby the Pharisee
Subject: 'The show must go on'
Message:
I brought all my MST3K tapes to Panamá with me, along with SCTV and various other tapes. But, I miss the Simpsons in English. Los Simpson is okay, but I miss Harry Shearer´s voices.
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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 04:33:57 (GMT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Michael
Subject: 'The show must go on'
Message:
Ah, the Simpsons! The joys of living in these states!

I've got some SCTV episodes on tape but only a few. SCTV hasn't been broadcast in these parts in years. And the bad news is that my prized copy of the Schmenge brothers special has internal damage. The tape came off the spindle!

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 04:00:06 (GMT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: 'The show must go on'
Message:
Upper case M is Mickey the Pharisee Michael, and lower case m is the michael from Oregon or something. I (Michael) started posting under my actual name as I am tired of premies posting here under aliases and decided that it was only right to post under my actual name if I was going to accuse them of being too chicken to post under their real names.
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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 08:56:52 (GMT)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Way to go Michael! no text
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 02:12:24 (GMT)
From: michael
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: 'The show must go on'
Message:
yeah that's me the michael from Oregon or something. Real name: Michael Read. Has lately started refering to himself as (trumpets and drums)St. Michael...the demented. Mostly harmless, has been know to react unpredictably when presented with dogma. Current occupation, Oracle database wizard. Current pre-occupation, Tibetan sorcery.
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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 09:00:01 (GMT)
From: carol
Email: None
To: michael
Subject: Source-ery (not witchcraft)
Message:
Sorry michael, but the word 'sorcery' bugged me until I heard you describe it this way.
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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 05:03:03 (GMT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: michael
Subject: 'The show must go on'
Message:
Michael I thought you were an alter of Mickey the Pharasee.
My grandma's maiden name was Read, an Irish girl from Brooklyn.

So, you into Tibetan sorcery are ye? Bon?

Because of my proximity to possible death, my personal 'story' and the cancer I went through this year, I get to do a high level Buddhist initiation next week without having to go through many preliminaries. I'm really deeply touched and very pleased.

Tibetan Buddhism, Vajrayana, represents the marriage of extreme experience and deep compassion for me. I was never before able to reconcile those forces in my life. With Vajrayana it is happening. The extreme experiences of my life have very strong shamanistic qualities, including the cancer.

'So God could see me he took my body' - Ginsberg

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 09:48:26 (GMT)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: I know now.Happy Happy Joy Joy
Message:
Bobby...I've been out of touch with my relatively new friends here for awhile. I've missed communicating and reading posts from you and many others! I'm happy for you that you are happy to be able to do that!

I'm just happy today!!! 'Happy Happy Joy Joy' is from a Ren and Stimpy cartoon, have you seen them?

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 15:58:17 (GMT)
From: bobby
Email: None
To: carol
Subject: I know now.Happy Happy Joy Joy
Message:
Hi Carol! I've missed communicating with you too.

Sure I know Ren and Stimpy. Years ago I would avidly watch each new episode with my brother and our kids. Normal alien behavior I guess. Before that it was PeeWee's playhouse.

When I was a kid in the fifties we had Andy's Gang. That show I think was instrumental in permanently dementing my mind. Froggy would play ghoulish tricks on Andy and his guests. Plunk yr magic twanger froggy! Then there was Little Squeaky and Midnight the cat who were rigged up live to play musical instruments and cavort with assorted miniature appurtenances.

I have a couple of videos of Andy's Gang. In one episode I have Squeaky and Midnight accompany Andy in singing 'Jesus loves me'. Froggy goes up to the film set rafters to pour a box of baking powder on Andy's guest and laughs dementedly. Ha Ha Ha Ha!

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 19:23:18 (GMT)
From: carol the crazed
Email: None
To: bobby
Subject: one more post before I go
Message:
I am not familiar with Andy's Gang. Or I have another are of memory loss! My crazy creative 11 year old son and I would love to see your video! Bye for now ......I Have to leave this chair!
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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 05:33:59 (GMT)
From: michael
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: back to the source me lads
Message:
Oh, I love that Ginsberg quote.

I have been learning chi kung (qigong) from a Chinese guy who is also a Tibetan sorceror. I usually get a kick out of the looks on peoples faces when I say that. But all it really means is getting back to the source. For your consideration, and I do mean just that - consideration only, here are some of the 'spiritual principles' involved.

I. Everything is perfect. While there may be many problems in our lives and in the world, at the base of it all it is perfect. We must change how we see the world.

II. Be grateful. Everything we receive has a reason and a lesson for us – for our life. Everything that comes to us – emotions – anger – love – whatever is energy. Be grateful for all that energy.

III. Appreciate everything. Give thanks to the universe for all that you receive.

IV. Know the Universe loves us. We have been given the most precious gift of all. Life. It is not destiny. It is not preordained. It is life.

V. Pay attention. You are the great observer. Don’t get caught up in all the dramatics. Learn to notice how you respond and are responded to.

VI. Be able to listen. When we really listen to the universe we really
start to know and learn.

VII. Learn the art of being defenseless. Evolve to a higher state of
consciousness. Learn to trust.

VIII. Understand proper intent. By becoming clear with our connection to the universe we learn that our personal will doesn’t govern. Understand that the flow of the universal energy guides us.

IX. Know true desire. True desire is more than our daily wants and needs. True desire knows true intent. The ability to create with true desire must come from the heart. With the correct approach and sense of responsibility we will become co-creators of our lives with the universe.

X. Be in service. Be in service to ourselves and to everything around us.

XI. You have no limits. Limits are based on our perceptions.

XII. Have no effort. Don’t try to force things. Just do and let it be
done.

XIII. Have no resistance. Be free to act. When you are basing your
actions on spiritual principles you are open.

XIV. Be able to respond rather than react. Understand how everything
flows.

XV. Accept everything. You will learn proper ownership.

XVI. Act with humility. Be gracious about everything. Act with compassion and awareness. Avoid false humility.

XVII. Know the unlimited potential. Anything is possible.

XVIII. Develop true commitment. Be aware of the level of energy you put into the universe. The more you put in – the more the universe puts into you.

XIX. Honor and hold everything as sacred. Know that everything is alive and connected and sacred.

XX. Know that the universe is in constant and effortless motion. We can get and do anything once we connect with the universe.

Chop wood, carry water, get spiritual, chop wood, carry water. The unusual becomes usual. Hoo ha.

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 05:20:57 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: 'The snow must log on'
Message:
All the mysteries are solved tonight!! A HA!
And welcome Michael from Oregon or something!

I have posted more here tonight than in the past 6 months!
Must be something about these new groovy 'frames' software that Brian invented! Makes me feel like a mad poet, frees my inner soul!! I am an artiste! WHEEEE!

I hope you will get Galaxy Quest in Panama, I have heard that the only movies that make it to theaters in Latina nd SOuth America are 'Anaconda' and stuff like that. The very best of The U.S.!

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Date: Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 17:46:05 (GMT)
From: Wadi Sue
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: What is wrong with you people?
Message:
My divine father and our whole family give time to all the little people and add joy to their otherwise miserable, squalid, lives. Who do you think you are to criticise us for that? I mean, we would be perfectly happy living in our different residences around the world with our servants, and just forget all you ungrateful people. But no, we work our fingers to the bone providing inspiration to you undeserving slobs. Do you know how inconvenient and troubling it is to have to get up on stage and entertain a bunch of poorly-dressed, unkempt cretins that the premies are? It's enough to make me want to vomit, but we do it, me, my sister Daya and my divine satguru father, because we have a divine duty and mission to spread uplifiting joy into the lives of the weak, ignorant and confused devotees and to try to select and sell them quality trinkets like watches and cooking aprons with swan motifs, to improve their otherwise empty lives. But do you exes appreciate this?...NO! I have half a mind to slap every one of you.

I mean, I was thinking the other day when I was driving my Mercedes down the PCH on my way to my bikini waxing appointment, how much we have sacrificed for the ungrateful people of the world. On several occasions we have delayed vacations to places like Bali and Monaco just so we could be at an event and be worshipped and fawned over by the premies. Do you know that my father has visited over 80 countries to spread this knowledge? And sometimes the accommodations have been less than luxurious, believe me. Why, in Katmandu, I was forced to practically camp out without my hairdresser or makeup consultant. It was downright primitive and I nearly died. I just don't know how much more, we as a family, will have to sacrifice before the stupid people of the world, especially the decadent and materialistic people of the USA and Europe, recognize us for the holy and divine people we are, and finally fall on their knees and beg us for this gift, for which they must be forever grateful.

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 20:58:54 (GMT)
From: 'Jim'
Email: None
To: Wadi Sue
Subject: What is wrong with you people?
Message:

'Jim' responded:
Just a shory response to the message left by 'Wadi Sue.' This is my first visit to this site. Before one can enter this site, I believe one of the provisos mentioned says something to the effect that persons entering submissions under false pretenses - claiming to be someone who they are not - would be blocked from placing future entries.
I submit that the transmission by 'Wadi Sue' is exactly that: a deliberate misrepresentation. The content is obviously meant to inflame; even an outsider can see that. If meant as a parody, it's weak and fails miserably. As it is, it degrades and defeats the aspirations of this forum - to allow for an open and honest discussion - by a deliberate smear which easily equals the lowest tactic the sender might level at the object of his or her disaffection.
Whoever you guardians of this forum are, you've got your work cut out for you.
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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 15:13:15 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: 'Jim'
Subject: False Names
Message:
Dear 'Jim',

If you remove 'Wadi Sue', you've also got to remove 'Perry Mason', 'Cecile B De Mille' and 'Deputy Dog', who I believe is a cartoon character, and obviously doesn't have access to the internet.

Anth the Sketch on the Back of a Beermat.

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 18:42:01 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: False Names
Message:

Jim responded:
Anth - I get your point. But there's a difference. Perry Mason and Deputy Dog are well known fictional names. DeMille is dead. But Wadi Sue refers to a living person; hence the false pretense.
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Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 13:23:10 (GMT)
From: Des Perado
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: False Names
Message:
AJW wrote:
Dear 'Jim',
If you remove 'Wadi Sue', you've also got to remove 'Perry Mason', 'Cecile B De Mille' and 'Deputy Dog', who I believe is a cartoon character, and obviously doesn't have access to the internet.

Anth the Sketch on the Back of a Beermat.

Jim responded:
Anth - I get your point. But there's a difference. Perry Mason and Deputy Dog are well known fictional names. DeMille is dead. But Wadi Sue refers to a living person; hence the false pretense.

Des responds to both:
From my short time on the site I would say that one would have to presume that all names used on it are false.

It also seems that many corresponents are premies filling up space with nothing but blather when considering the nature of the site. For instance Scot T likes to talk about Roman history. His entries are both well written and interesting but what's it got to do with why anyone would have a look in. So Scot T is at least still pretending to practice K. Wouldn't you agree?

How about a competition along the lines of guessing who these time wasters are. It could be called the 'Who is Scot T Guessing Competition'.

For what it is worth, my name is Des.

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Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 14:13:17 (GMT)
From: Michael
Email: None
To: Des Perado
Subject: False Names
Message:
Actually Des, Scott T. IS Scott T. and he doesn't practice K anymore as far as I know. That thread started on the subject and moved quickly into a discussion on the Romans and the Christians. Some names here are false, but many of us post using our actual names. Tell us about yourself.
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Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 22:54:33 (GMT)
From: Des Perado
Email: None
To: Michael
Subject: False Names
Message:
I'm a recent ex P, interested in talking about things relating to same. That is why I'm here.

What else would you like to know?

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Date: Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 02:27:00 (GMT)
From: Michael
Email: mgdbach@hotmail.com
To: Des Perado
Subject: False Names
Message:
Where are you from? What's your story? What got you to take that step out of M's dream world and into the real world? If you don't want to post such things here, you may e-mail me. I enjoy hearing exes' stories.

I'm Michael Dresbach, an ex for a long time. I am an Episcopal priest living in Panamá.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 06, 2000 at 13:40:19 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim Change your name please.
Message:
Dear 'Jim'

When I first posted to you, I addressed you as 'Jim'.

You replied as Jim.

There is a regular, and much loved member of our forum who has been posting for sometime as Jim.

You are obviously not him.

So to avoid confusion, could you please post under a unique name.

Anth the Gets Confused Enough Already.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 06, 2000 at 18:04:01 (GMT)
From: Jim aka Tor
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Jim Change your name please.
Message:
AJW - Sorry, I am new and didn't know there was another Jim. Henceforth, I shall be TOR! To infinity and beyond!
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Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 10:56:15 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jim aka Tor
Subject: Thanks Jimaka
Message:
Thanks JimakaTor,

So, are you a premie, an ex' or somewhere in between?

When did you get into the cult?

Your perception about old timers is accurate. The longer you've been around, the more mumbo jumbo fills your head. This also applies to the one who's been around longest of all, the master himself.

There are many layers to the cult. What's presented to you at an introductory meeting, is not what's going inside it all.

At the centre are the oldest old timers of all, still playing the 'Lord is walking among us' game.

Have you ever been through a darshan line Jimaka'?

Eeeeh young'un, the tales I could tell you.

Anth the Old Fart.

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 20:24:35 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim and AJW
Subject: False Names
Message:

Deputy Dog responded:
Jim and AJ,

Just for the record 'Deputy Dawg' is the fictional name. Deputy Dog, on the other hand, does have access to the internet and is as real as you and me.

Dep

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 22:53:08 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: False Names
Message:
I stand corrected. Sorry, Dep.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 06, 2000 at 03:25:58 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim - a thought!
Message:
An ex-prisoner of war visited a fellow survivor who asked, 'Have you forgiven those who imprisoned you yet?' 'No, never!' said the ex-prisoner. 'Then they still have you in prison,' said the survivor.

Sure this story is a little maudlin, but there is some truth in it.

Dep

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Date: Thurs, Jan 06, 2000 at 13:56:01 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Rings True to Me Dog.
Message:

AJW responded:
Hi Dog,

That quote rings very true to me. There is a difference however, which is I don't feel there's anyone who I have to forgive. I don't have a problem, personally with Mr Rawat. If he broke down outside my house, I'd invite him in for a cup of tea and let him use my phone. I wouldn't harangue him about being a cult leader and causing me to waste the best years of my life etc.

I think I used to make him nervous and inhibited sometimes when I was a premie, so God knows what he thinks of me nowadays. Anyway, the point is, I don't blame him and I don't feel like there's anything to forgive.

I do, however, feel that, although I've left the cult, I'm still, like your quote infers, somehow imprisoned in it.

Since I quit, about a year and a half ago, I've been astonished to watch my concepts and view of life quietly adjust to the real world. (As opposed to living in premie cuckoo land, where everything is a lila, happens by Maharaji's grace, and is a cosmic game between the living lord and oneself).

Cogs are starting to turn again, and curtains being pulled back on rooms that haven't seen sunlight for 25 years.

Being a premie really does give you a big blind spot in life. For example, someone tells a vicious racist joke, you condemn them. Maharaji tells you a vicious racist joke and you laugh. It's his game right?

When you finally get out of the cult Dog, you'll find you have a lot to deal with. The process though, seems to be a natural one, and happens in its own time.

Anyway, good luck on your journey to freedom.

Anth the optimist.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 06, 2000 at 18:00:19 (GMT)
From: Jim aka Tor
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Rings True to Me Dog.
Message:
AJW - Your transcendence of bitterness in whatever transition you're going through is admirable. It's not something everyone achieves - I can only guess a lot of it remains in some people as evidenced by the sniping and personal smears in their postings. It's OK to be angry, but why not express it directly and get at the core issue instead of malice for its own sake?

But I digress. A comment I wanted to make regarding your message and that of Pauline P.'s earlier. A lot of the nomenclature and concepts referred to - lilas, grace, satguru, etc. - are something from the distant past. Sure, you'll hear old-timers mention them, mostly in jest, but they're living in the past as well. They (the concepts) are not something that any newcomer has been exposed to for quite some years, except through the unnecessary and unhelpful input from the aforementioned old-timers. I think that to whatever extent we depart from having a real experience that doesn't need labels, we continually substitute older concepts for ever more refined ones. At least I know I do.

Anyway, I enjoyed your missive.

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Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 15:12:54 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim aka Tor
Subject: What am I, chopped liver? (nt)
Message:
What am I, chopped liver? (nt)
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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 19:25:04 (GMT)
From: Franny
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Who is Wadi Sue? nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 22:56:10 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Franny
Subject: Who is Wadi Sue? nt
Message:
Meant to refer to one of Maharaji's daughters
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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 22:01:18 (GMT)
From: Pauline Premie
Email: None
To: 'Jim'
Subject: So True
Message:
You are exactly right. That post was a deliberate misrepresentation. Anyone reading that post, except someone with a warped mind, would think Wadi Sue actually posted it. And I'm sure she didn't, so it is SO misleading to people.

I mean, no one would ever see that the post was meant as satire and they would be duped into thinking Wadi Sue is posting on this forum, which I find absurd. These ex-premies are just so in their minds, poking fun at that gift, that love, that experience, that truth, offered by the grace through the lotus feet of our lord and master, Maharaji. And even making fun of that holy family. And just because Maharaji has his daughter get up and perform at programs, including singing love songs to him in front of thousands of people, does not give these confused people the right to talk about and make fun of her.

Thank you Jim. You are a true devotee.

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 04:12:05 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Pauline Premie
Subject: So True
Message:
Dear Pauline P.: Whew! Do I stand corected. Yes, it was obviously a satire. I think if I had taken the time to read further messages I would have realized how predominant that form of communication is on this site. And I a one-time English major.
But can you see a little bit of my point? Sometimes the line between satire and what purports to be factual can be very thinly drawn. Big deal, right? I mean, if someone doesn't get it, tough luck for him or her. But in scanning other missives, it was easy to see cases of deliberate misrepresentation. That raises the question of veracity; how much of what's written is true and how much manufactured? Maybe knowbody knows, but deliberately muddying the waters can't be much of a help.
By the way, my thanks for your gracious congrats re: my devotion. I accept them in the same spirit they were delivered.
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Date: Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 20:46:45 (GMT)
From: Cecil B. DeMille
Email: None
To: Wadi Sue
Subject: Ready for your close-up, Norma
Message:
Try substituting Norma Desmond with Maharaji or your favorite Holy Family persona.

Memorable Quotes from Sunset Blvd. (1950)



Betty Schaefer: Don't you sometimes hate yourself?
Joe Gillis: Constantly.



Joe Gillis: [narrating] The poor dope - he always wanted a pool. Well, in the end, he got himself a pool.



Joe Gillis: You're Norma Desmond. You used to be in silent pictures. You used to be big.
Norma Desmond: I *am* big. It's the *pictures* that got small.



Norma Desmond: They took the idols and smashed them, the Fairbankses, the Gilberts, the Valentinos! And who've we got now? Some nobodies!



Joe Gillis: I didn't know you were planning a comeback.
Norma Desmond: I hate that word. It's a return, a return to the millions of people who have never forgiven me for deserting the screen.



Max Von Mayerling: She was the greatest of them all. You wouldn't know, you're too young. In one week she received 17,000 fan letters. Men bribed her hairdresser to get a lock of her hair. There was a maharajah who came all the way from India to beg one of her silk stockings. Later he strangled himself with it!



Norma Desmond: We didn't need dialogue. We had faces!



Joe Gillis: [sarcastically] They'll love it in Pomona.
Norma Desmond: They'll love it everyplace.



Joe Gillis: Audiences don't know somebody sits down and writes a picture; they think the actors make it up as they go along.



Norma Desmond: I'm rich. I'm richer than all this new Hollywood trash. Huh! I've got a million dollars.
Joe Gillis: Keep it.
Norma Desmond: Own three blocks downtown. I've got oil in Bakersfield. Pumping, pumping, pumping.



[Norma threatens suicide again]
Joe Gillis: Oh, wake up, Norma, you'd be killing yourself to an empty house. The audience left twenty years ago.



Joe Gillis: [narrating] Well, this is where you came in, back at that pool again, the one I always wanted. It's dawn now and they must have photographed me a thousand times. Then they got a couple of pruning hooks from the garden and fished me out...ever so gently. Funny, how gentle people get with you once you're dead.



Norma Desmond: [to newsreel camera] And I promise you I'll never desert you again because after 'Salome' we'll make another picture and another picture. You see, this is my life! It always will be! Nothing else! Just us, the cameras, and those wonderful people out there in the dark! ...All right, Mr. DeMille, I'm ready for my close-up.

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Date: Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 20:15:46 (GMT)
From: Daya
Email: None
To: Wadi Sue
Subject: Don't be such a bitch, Wadi
Message:
You aren't the only one who has to put up with all kinds of crap from people who don't recognize who Dad is. I am sacrificing a very promising musical and modeling career to work at Visions almost 5 hours a week, just so that we have quality, beautiful merchandise in the Visions catalogue and inspiring newage music on the CDs, all for the benefit of the miserable people of the world. I feel very under-appreciated and I don't need you to be complaining. Bitch.
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Date: Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 05:30:24 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: public programs?
Message:
I'm just wondering, do any communities still put on public programs to try and pull in new recruits? I know up until a few months ago at least a few communities did and this is what I find so amazing-
Maharaji has this unbelievably hypocritical, decadent lifestyle-for years he attempted to hide this from his followers, and successfully did hide it from most of them.The details are chronicled here for the entire world to see-any person in the world is literally a few mouse clicks away from seeing an incredibly damning and damaging review of his life and the things he has done to people.
So what does he do?
He has innocent, idealistic premies (it's hard to believe there are still such 'believers out there')go out into public libraries and hotels and put on programs to recruit people. These premies are completely unaware of the negative stuff.They introduce new people to him, and then if/when the new people find out about this website, they realize how much they are not being told.
At this point, they probably resent the premie for trying to recruit them into a cult. If the premie doesn't know about this stuff, they look stupid for not knowing about it and irresponsible for trying to bring others into it.If they did know about this stuff, they look even more reprehensible.
So, what I am saying is, m sets up people to front for him, and these people unwittingly play this game in which ultimately they get used and possibly even shunned by other people, and possibly damaged professionally and ethically in their community. And m knows all this stuff, and lets them go out and make fools of themselves at best, and hurt themselves and others at worst.
What does this say about the man?
I think the internet has threatened him greatly and this is part of the reason he is going into houses, and away from public view.
Any comments or experiences?
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Date: Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 22:28:57 (GMT)
From: DV
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: public programs?
Message:
A few months back I noticed they stopped having premie programs in my area, only public programs. I figure this way they can weed out fringe and plant premies who they don't want having access to requests to support m's lifestyle.

I wonder if it's legal to hand out ex.premie.org business cards to people walking into these programs.

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 18:44:08 (GMT)
From: Perry Mason
Email: None
To: DV
Subject: public programs?
Message:
It is quite legal in the USA to give out cards, or speak, to anyone you want to, but if you are on private property, you can be asked to leave and do it on public property instead, or on private property the owner of which does not object. This is protected by the First Amendment of the Constitution, freedom of speech, and freedom of the press.
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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 12:52:39 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: DV
Subject: Leafleting.
Message:
Hi DV,

In most of Europe, it's quite legal to offer a small piece of paper to a fellow human being, in a public place. (I gave out thousands in the 70s, telling people the Lord had come again.)

In the state of California however, if you've a couple of convictions already, you could get a life sentence in a slave labour camp.

Anth the Eurostar (2nd class, weekend saver)

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Date: Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 15:35:27 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: public programs?
Message:
From what I gather, the totality of 'public programs' in most places is playing a video at some location that Maharaji has designated suitable for people 'who don't have knowledge.' A premie can then bring someone to see the video, but I gather that is rare these days because the vast majority of premies do not even disclose to non-premies that they follow Maharaji. Maharaji is so confused about how to present who the hell he is and what his role is that the premies have no idea how to do that either, so by and large they don't. That's why the number of people receiving knowledge in the West is so tiny.

Premies aren't allowed to talk about anything at these video events, other than to read a canned introduction to the video, entirely scripted by Maharaji. The video is over and people leave, and maybe leave their names if they are interested. Now we are told that Maharaji might be doing away with video events entirely.

I think Maharaji used to sometimes do 'public programs' in the West, but I don't think he has done one in years. In my opinion, he has given up on propogation in the West. He has just written it off as not worth the expense. I think this website can take some credit for that. I think he has decided it is better to conserve the money for a more placial residence, a new Rolls Royce or a new plane with more interesting gadgets that Maharaji is so into.

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Date: Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 14:45:52 (GMT)
From: The Goober
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: public programs?
Message:
Now listen here, la-ex: I never recruited anyone into my group, the premies did it. I've always tried to break the group up; witness DLM and DUO. It's not my fault. It never was my fault. I didn't do it. I wasn't there. The PREMIES did it and it's all their fault. They called me the lord, they recruited people into this cult-thing. I'm completely blameless. Ok?
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Date: Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 17:29:33 (GMT)
From: Pauline Premie
Email: None
To: The Goober
Subject: public programs?
Message:
Oh my Maharaji, you are all powerful. We are weak and ignorant and filled with the impurities of this world. Please, save us, transform us, from lost beings into the divine grace of you pure love. May we dissolve forever into the bliss of your lotus feet. I would crawl accross two continents to lick the dust off your feet.

Bohle Shri Satgurudev Maharaj Ki Jai!

By the way, you are way more beautiful than your brother who also claims to be the perfect master. In fact, I think Satpal is way, fatter than you and his wife is even fatter and really ugly. Thank you for the gift which is this life and your love.

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Date: Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 16:01:10 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: The Goober
Subject: Gooberaji great post ki jai nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 02:32:55 (GMT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: BenLurk@aol.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Tim Galloway -CULT? Inner Game
Message:
So I stopped at B&N on the way home and there was new TG book, in the isection that was 'people who helped him or some such' was R.J. Rawat. Is Tim Galloway still a member of the E.V Cult or does he follow th brother. Could someone who knows stop in a bookstore and read the list of names and indentify 'current premies' for us -Thanks and happ 3rd day of 2000!
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Date: Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 20:32:04 (GMT)
From: Paul
Email: None
To: Ben Lurking
Subject: Tim Galloway -CULT? Inner Game
Message:
I remember reading, not long ago, that he was coming out with a new book, something along the lines of 'The Inner game of Management' though I'm not sure of the exact title. I believe he has some sort of organizational consulting business going.

Premie Trivia: When I was in the LA ashram in the early seventies, on several occasions I went along with Tim when he gave tennis lessons to the rich.
PS it's Gallway not Galloway

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 00:00:59 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Paul
Subject: Tim Galloway -CULT? Inner Game
Message:
>PS it's Gallway not Galloway

I don't think so - g.

CD

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 04:02:58 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Gallwey? (nt)
Message:
ny
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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 00:07:15 (GMT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Tim Galloway -CULT? Inner Game
Message:
you don't think he is a cult member or you don't think he follows rj?
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Date: Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 15:24:09 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Ben Lurking
Subject: Tim Galloway -CULT? Inner Game
Message:
I read the 'Inner Game of Tennis' years ago. Even at the time I thought it was a really stupid book, based on this idea that if you kind of just didn't think you would play tennis better. It was basically built on insults, like so much else in the new-age movement --- the insult is that there is something intrinsically wrong with people and they way they live, and they need to practice some simplistic exercises to correct the problem, and people like Gallway and Maharaji have the key to do that.

The book got really bad reviews, but Gallway rode the wave of new-age crap in the 70s and he had a captive group of premies who bought the book. I recall that there used to be a table of his books for sale at some big cult programs. Plus, premies and Maharaji used Gallway as a kind of 'bridge' from the cult to the legitimate world. Gallway then published a number of other 'inner game' books. I don't think he actually wrote them, however. I am aware that a woman (a premie) actually ghost wrote at least one of his books.

Gallway then played the 'inner game' of being a celebrity premie in the cultworld who sat in the front row at programs and got to rub elbows with Maharaji and his jet-set inner circle. It was a symbiotic relationship.

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 00:15:01 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Inner Game premise
Message:
>I read the 'Inner Game of Tennis' years ago. Even at the time I thought it was a really stupid book, based on this idea that if you kind of just didn't think you would play tennis better.

Actually it has to do with employing feeling and spontaneity.
If you follow the advice in the book, and practice against a wall for a while, your tennis game will definitely improve.
If you think the book is just stupid you will not receive any benefit.

The Inner Game of Tennis

CD

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 18:18:31 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Inner Game premise
Message:
The book is stupid because it spins this whole theory instead of just saying that simple relaxation and concentration might improve the way you do things, tennis or anything else. Instead of just saying that, which, by the way, many tennis instructors, including the one I had when I was in the 5th grade, have been saying that for years, Gallway dressed up that simple instruction into a new-age supposed 'breakthrough' and made a bunch of money in the process. That's why I think it's stupid.

I also think your statement that you have to have a belief in something before it can work, is the same nonsense Maharaji teaches. If you don't believe in him and his supposed powers, you won't have any experience, because there isn't any experience beyond your own belief in them. I am speaking for myself here. That's the valuable thing I learned by being in, and leaving, a religious cult.

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 09:50:04 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: CD
Subject: Make $$$ for CD premise
Message:
CD,

You sneaky sneaky guy! That link that you provided for the Inner Game of Tennis takes us to Amazon where we can *BUY* the book! Great! Thanks! I bought five copies and sent them to friends and relatives.

And only later did I discover that there was something special about that link which looks like this:

http://www.amazon.com/ exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0679778314/ chrisdickeymicroA/'

Whoa! There it is - your name. Hmmm? What does this mean? A little kickback to the referrer?

And then there is this: CDickey Human Spirit, Success, Infinity and Business Books webpage with all sorts of special links to Amazon.com. Hmmm?

Well, Mr. CD, I can only hope that you are sending all of that cash straight to Maharaji so he can drink the finest cognac (VVSOP or whatever) and smoke the best bud. Somebody needs to get a blast on all of this.

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 12:22:31 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Thanks
Message:
I should get you for promotions.

and, I'll bet that Proxomitron can handle anything with those special filters you'll be giving out. The keyboard shortcuts expose a special type of mind. Proxomitron is kinda cute. I can see why you like those shades.
Still not sure why IE5 gives you the creeps.
Web Filter stuff

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 01:32:33 (GMT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Inner game of wall
Message:
I know I can beat a wall at a game of tennis and I don't even play. How could premies have time to play games like tennis?
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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 01:27:31 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Hey Chris, whadaya think??
Message:
Do you think we are having any affect on M and his mission?
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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 10:22:55 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: A guess
Message:
>Do you think we are having any affect on M and his mission?

My guess. Certainly some, but not much. Possibly a bit of good feedback.
Most of the stuff on this site is criticism. Not much to offer any value. And there is so much disinfo, foolish hearsay, petty gripes and bickering mixed in that the credibility of what people say has been positioned at a low level.
There are smart and interesting people posting at this site along with gripers and partial kooks. The soup turns out to be a curious complex flavor that affects people in all sorts of ways. Sometimes providing mental satisfaction and at other times resulting in drunken like outbursts.

Either there is something fundamentally valuable about what M teaches or there is something fundamentally wrong. He will succeed or fail based on that.

CD

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 14:01:24 (GMT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: A guess
Message:
Hi CD,
I guess you are influenced by your computer work when you
say wrong or right will cause success or failure.
It is a human issue so there are lots of shades of grey that
affect outcomes.
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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 14:25:28 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: A guess
Message:
>It is a human issue so there are lots of shades of grey that
affect outcomes.

Yes I agree that there certainly is complexity.
Wars are won yet lives are lost.
We can't properly imagine the diversity of opinions that exist in this world. Who can even track the variety of languages. I am a sort of virtual librarian and am amazed by the variety and quantity of books that are available.
I do still believe that beneath all the diversity of ideas lies a common feeling of life itself.

It must be quite a challenge to be a public figure attempting to move a group of people towards a certain perspective.

CD

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 19:32:05 (GMT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: A guess
Message:
Well, dont you try to move your Lady 'towards a certain perspective'?
Like say......sleep with me tonight?
Or lets do this, or that.
The challenge to sway others is one we all are stuck with.
That song 'everyone wants to rule the world' is not so far off the
mark.
Good thing it IS a challenge, otherwise we would all just
fall over at the first strong man who said 'do this'.
People fight all the time to keep others at bay and also
of course, people fight all the time to get thier way over others.

If I am selling you a computer program, or a book on WIndows
2000 professional, it may be 'fundamentally right' and yes
the win2000 is a gem, but my book advertising and promoteing
it may be a bad teaching method that teaches the reader 'student'
in a detrimental way.

If the student doesnt know where I am misleading him, then he
has no complaints. That doesnt mean I should be applauded and
no one should object to my efforts to 'help' others.

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 10:51:21 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: CD
Subject: How about a wager?
Message:
No guesses here! Let's bet some of that Amazonian money coming your way, CD. Maharaji fails because he is fundamentally flawed. Sure, he's got one or two clown cards left to play, but after that - history, yesterday's potato salad found in a dumpster!

He'll be out of business in less than five years. Washed up. A has been. Raja Ji working in a car wash in East L.A. The kids all sold into slavery in the MidEast. Marolyn finally free and a regular poster here at the Forum and the Mother of all Journey stories.

Patrick, Maharaji's once faithful valet, leaves fatso and gets a job at Graceland watching over the King as he sleeps so peacefully in his tomb with his mother and Colonel Tom on either side.

Maharaji retires to Slab City where he sells autographed ketchup and mustard based watercolors on paper napkins to the few remaining faithful who are urged to make the pilgrimage at least once a year.

Oh and CD you said this: Most of the stuff on this site is criticism. Not much to offer any value. And there is so much disinfo, foolish hearsay, petty gripes and bickering mixed in that the credibility of what people say has been positioned at a low level.

You should spend some of that Amazon money and upgrade to the NSA feed. Much, much better. The info is solid, reliable, documented, footnoted, everything. All the bickering is decoded and you see what the PAMs (Premies Around Maharaji) are saying. Hell, you even see Wadi-Sue when you get the NSA feed. Well worth the money!

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 11:04:13 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: How about explaining this?
Message:
Roger eDrek Guide to Success

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 11:52:45 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: CD
Subject: I can do that
Message:
Ok, ok. You found me out. I'm a pornographer. I've been writing pornograhy since I was eleven years old. I cannot stop. I'm writing one now about this rich guy who lives in Malibu see and...

Hey, it pays the bills. Look at how many I've sold according to Amazon: Amazon.com Sales Rank: 348,883. I think that my publiisher is shorting me.

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Date: Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 07:06:08 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Ben Lurking
Subject: Inner Game of $$$$$
Message:
Galloway's always had the scoop on making the bucks while staying on top of the premie social circuit. His book had the most new age legitimacy (while most premies were still being laughed off the street). If anyone is still with Rawatt, wouldn't it be someone who is making a bundle on it? Why mess up a good thing with little problems like your guru is has made fraudulent claims or his brother claims the same throne?
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Date: Sun, Jan 02, 2000 at 19:58:20 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: To Michael,the priest formerly
Message:
and fondly known as Mickey the P. :)

Hey, here I am in N Central PA on January 2nd in 50 + degrees and loving it, dancing to Tom Waits! :) Now he always reminds me of you. I've changed camps on my opinion of him. See never to late to change. :)
Happy New Year, Michael.
Love,
Robyn

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 17:56:55 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: You must be dancing to...
Message:
Hi Robyn, (and Mickey)

Happy New Year.

Robyn, you must have been dancing to 'Mule Variations', definitely one of the albums of last year.

Anth the Big in Japan.

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 18:13:56 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: You must be dancing to...
Message:
Dear Anth,
Yep,'Mule Variations' and other assorted good cuts to fill the tape out and the one song that turned me off from him when Jessica, my oldest, started listening to his music...something about a g-string, make a dead man cum ect ect. She made the tape and is making me pay the piper I guess, that cruel humor of hers! :)
Michael, Mickey the P, got me to open my mind again to him, bless his heart. Such good dancing...how could I have resisted. :)
Robyn the rythmic
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Date: Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 01:22:51 (GMT)
From: Michael
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: To Michael,the priest formerly
Message:
Robyn, I am just happy that you have seen the light.
¡Feliz Año!

Padre Miguel

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Date: Sun, Jan 02, 2000 at 17:55:37 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: cult phobias
Message:
I thought I would start this out with an on topic post. I thought about joining the recent ex's to post it. But I am FAR from a recent ex. Despite this, from time to time having been in a cult affects the way I relate to the world to this day. In ways besides wanting to talk about it on the net first thing in the morning.

Here are excerpts of an email I sent a friend, also an ex. I have no idea if anyone else has had similar experiences but I thought if they had they may be interested.

I am
dental phobic myself. I have actually had true blue panic attacks there. I
always have to get gas or pre meds before I go. Even for getting my teeth
cleaned. I have finally found a dentist with the
patience of a saint and I think I personally have financed his move to the
wealthiest area of town! But if anyone has earned it he has.

I am reminded of an ex premie 'tale'. A few years ago my dentist had to
refer me for a root canal refix to a new specialist, one who did not use
nitrous. I cannot tell you how upsetting this was to me. I thought about
trying to come to a larger city for the procedure to avoid this. He
did offer me meds but I was convinced they would not work. My husband, the
most anti wierd hippy dippy person you could ever meet, suggested I see a
hypnotherapist. I was so stunned that he would suggest this that I almost
had to do it. She is a nurse at the hospital who has a private
hypnotherapy office as well. So I make an appointment. I bet you can almost
guess. The very idea of being hypnotized in itself was causing me tremendous
anxiety. I was having Knowledge session flashbacks sort of. I started to
cry. I was not even sure I wanted to tell her why I was about to get up and
leave. I was embarrassed to try to explain about having been in a cult. But
I did take the leap and explain. She was so kind and understanding. She
changed her wording to be as straightforward as possible ' your teeth are
important and you want to take good care of them' ( reminding me why I was
being hypnotized ) and emphasized how I was in control at all times and that
in no way was I vulnerable to any suggestion I did not wish to take. She
also I think had some education about cults because she really understood
how being asked to focus on your breath as a person used suggestion to sort
of break down our usual concious barriers might leave me feeling very
vulnerable to her.

The root canal procedure went fine. I went to the dentist with a tape of her
voice, Xanax , and Propanolol to
keep my heart from racing. Not only did it go fine I recall almost nothing
of the day! My husband took me two places afterward I do not recall being.

This makes me sound like a pretty neurotic person but my neurosis tend to
cluster around certain things, dentists, once heights, caves, dense crowds
this is absolutely cult related too) , churches ( cult related) and I guess
hypnotherapy!

Do you think it might help other ex's to
see that people can have some long term consequences like this?

The crowd thing I am getting over. I was in the middle of a crowd on New Years and had a blast. I did not think of premies once. But for a long time I hated crowds and any sort of concert type thing with a stage that would remind me of a festival. It would be intolerable if the crowd was hyped up and really into whatever they were seeing. Bored crowds were okay.

Anyway, I do not know if anyone can relate but I thought I would share this.

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 02:56:17 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: cult phobias
Message:
Susan,

It's been my experience that living in the mind state is akin to living under hypnosis. In the mind state we are slaves to our past conditioning. If you've ever seen a stage hypnotist give a post hypnotic command and have someone start singing an opera or doing a sexy dance you'll know what I mean.

The trick is not to hypnotize people but to de-hypnotize them. And that's why meditation is as old as the hills and has been revered for thousands of years. In the spaciousness of soul we rise above our internal conditionning, are less at the effect of our environment, and can choose our responses.

That's why I value Knowledge.

However great the forces of fear and self-protection is in our life, there is another more powerful force that will break down those walls . . . our deep longing for wholeness.

Dep

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 18:58:56 (GMT)
From: Christopher
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: cult phobias
Message:
Dep, I've got no axe to grind with people who get a kick out of meditating, but can you help me understand why your explanation sounds so post-hypnotic?

Spaciousness of soul ... !!! LOQ

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 19:51:40 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Christopher
Subject: cult phobias
Message:

Deputy Dog responded:
Christopher,

Just trying to be a little poetic. Ghandi called it Soul Force and I'm sure some ex wouldn't have liked that. Most of our life is lived in a stimulus-response, and meditation helps short circuit that. That's been my experience.

Every molecule of our body is replaced every seven years. I'm talking about that which doesn't change. And I'm not so naive to think that meditation will make all our problems go away.

What is LOQ . . . ???

Dep

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Date: Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 03:20:28 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: My antennae are up
Message:
I do not like being herded around in a crowd since being a premie (for example, sharing a hotel room with lots of people) or travelling with big groups of people. I really want to do my own thing and am very independent. I would have been an awful ashram premie because the lack of privacy would have made me grumpy, resentful, and nuts.

That lack of control thing that bothered you with dentistry bothered me too when I started acupuncture. I wanted to know exactly what was going to happen to me. Finally I relaxed and derived alot of benefit from it. Also when ever I have visited churches my antennae has been up warning me of 'cult consciousness'. One woman told me that I would have to 'die to myself and be reborn in Christ' to go to her church. I ran out of there faster than a speeding bullet and haven't been there or in any church since. Perhaps I am too paranoid about this--I shouldn't base my decision about a church based on what one person says to me at coffee hour, but I have already died to myself once and I am never going to do that again!! No thank you! Maybe we all have learned something good--to be cautious! WE can't help it, we learned this the hard way & there's no going back to being that naive and innocent again!

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Date: Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 03:37:47 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: to helen and JW
Message:
Very similar. I don't think that my fear of dentists has much to do with the cult. But my reaction to the hypnosis surely did, and crowds, and churches.

I too feel I have an immediate reognition of cult speak. Even if it is a different cult.

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Date: Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 13:09:29 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: to helen and JW
Message:
Dear Helen and Susan,
I also have a sever reaction to religion but not from the M cult. It is from growing up Catholic. Maybe that sounds funny but it was my mother who was the religious one and my mother who beat us and tortured us as kids and the two things have been joined in my head I guess. I got into M because the man telling me about him was so good looking and it seemed to accept all religions which drew me in.
I have never had problems with crowds though but then I didn't have any bad experiences in the cult.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 22:04:27 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: to Robyn & Susan
Message:
I guess' religious' and 'good' don't necessarily go together as in the case of your mom, Robyn (no shit, Sherlock, right?). Unfortunately fundamentalism and fanatacism often seem to involve some weird thinking that can lead to abuse. And soemtimes the people who make a big show of being religious behave the weirdest towards other people--sheesh!

As far as the initial reaction to premie dom embracing all religions, they sure gave lip service to that, at first it seemed so open, but then that old open mindedness seemed to get narrower and narrower, kinda like coffee hour with the fundamentalist:
'Wel, actually this church isn't as open minded as it may appear, and at some point you will be asked to DIE FOR YOURSELF AND LIFT THE CROSS FOR JEE-SUS!' is kinda similar to

'Well you can continue going to church but Maharaji really discourages it, in fact, without his salvation you will never reach your goal, without the grace of satguru, forget it, it's all Maya, and by the way give up your college studies and your dream to have kids cause he frowns on that, too, you should just move into the ashram.'

I still can't believe that you didn't get damaged by the cult. I mean, I believe you when you say that, but I think you lucked out in having a very laid back community and a good bullshit detector!!

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Date: Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 22:29:10 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: to Robyn & Susan
Message:
Dear Helen,
Hey, NO bullshit detector! I was so gullible. People who think I am gullible today don't have a clue what gullible is. Sorry for all the misspellings of the word gullible! :)
I was lucky to be in a laid back community for sure especially knowing that the housefather there became a big wig in DLM. I caught him in his early stages thank god!
I was just lucky all the way around and never really appriciated it until I found this site and saw what some went through.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Jan 02, 2000 at 20:46:34 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: cult phobias
Message:
I remember one New Years Eve, about two years after I left the Maharaji cult in the mid-80s my friend Joy (who is also an ex-premie) invited me to a party at the home of her cousin who was heavy into EST. Everyone else there, except the two of us, were into EST. Anyhow, everyone seemed fine, albeit a bit superficial and overdressed, but all at once I was overwhelmed with this need to get out of there. I tried striking up conversations with some people, but that seemed not to help. I think the thing that weirded me out was that this group were all 'into' the same thing, had the same shorthand 'lingo' and a certain tacit understanding that they all accepted, and didn't question. It was palpable, this 'groupthink' that extended even to the way people acted. I couldn't even explain it at the time, but it repulsed me and made me very anxious.

I think I experienced this like being in a group of premies, who, in my experience, acted the same way and it was a flashback to that. I just wanted to get out of there, partly because I wasn't part of 'the group' but mostly because I feared I might get sucked into the group. I attribute this to the hyperawareness we, as ex-cult members have, of groupthink, especially of a new age or 'spiritual' variety.

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Date: Sun, Jan 02, 2000 at 20:51:59 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Nitrous Oxide
Message:
My dentist also uses nitrous oxide, but, on balance, I don't like it. At first it makes me relaxed, it's very pleasurable, and it does kind of screw up your time perception so that the dental work seems to go faster, but I find that after awhile it makes me kind of paranoid, and sensitive to conversations and sounds going on around me, that I don't completely understand because of the gas, and this weird feeling that I wouldn't be able to respond to outside stimuli that I need to. I think it's the kind of 'out of control' feeling that I don't like.

BTW -- addiction to nitrous oxide is a serious problem among dentists, as is additiction to prescription drugs.

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Date: Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 13:04:18 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Nitrous Oxide
Message:
Hey Joe and Susan,
I had some reconstructive dental work done years ago and they used Nitrous and novicaine and all went well. I think there were 3 visits with no problems. I am another panic stricken dental patient. When I came up here in 1979 and went to a dentist I just wanted the gas to get the novicane needle but this new dentist said he wanted to leave it on the whole time so that is what I did. It was fine during the visit, relaxing and that was great but that night I had the absolute worst headache of my life at the base of my skull. So I have had to toughen up and skip the gas. Now I have a gentle dentist also and when he gives novicaine the needle doesn't even hurt. At least my phobia of needles has kept me from intervinous drug use!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Jan 02, 2000 at 21:48:16 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Nitrous Oxide you are right(OT
Message:
I find that the older I get the more paranoid I get with the gas. I have switched to just getting an anti anxiety pill an hour before the procedure and then I am fine. But I think that is because I have a lot of trust in my dentist now.
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Date: Sun, Jan 02, 2000 at 20:22:53 (GMT)
From: ij
Email: ianjohnson@aresthome.freeserve.co.uk
To: Susan et al
Subject: cult phobias
Message:
Hi Susan
I was at a GMJ festival in Miami in the early 80' and had the most awful wisdom tooth ach. As a skint Brit I knew the cost of an extraction in the USA would be the gross national product of a small Africian state. So I concoted a mixture of meditation, masocism and stoatism, helped by a bottle of cloves brought in the cake mix section of Miami Beech Safeways. It was an interesting exploration into the fronteers of pain and pain controll. In New York one can pay $1000 an hour for this sort of experience!!Got back to Blighty and had it pulled free on the NHS
My point being whatever happens to you the lession is to somehow make some sort of profit out of it.
I was a premie for about 15 yrs, there were good times/bad times but on the big account I got more out of it than they got out of me. Saw the world, learnt a few trades and generally had a good time.
Bit like being in the army but easier to adjust to the real world. The only problems I had before, during of after my 'tour of duty' were of my own creation. I'm sure in a court it could be proved it was my school, parents, GMJ etc. were to blame. If I belive that I can cuddle up in the comfort blanket of self pity unable to control those unalterable forces. Beliving the oposite gives me the chance to to take controll. Sometimes it works other times not so well yet for me it stopes the corresion of self pity.
If you fell you got conned by GMJ; you did. To put it in proportion think how the population of the Eastern block must have felt after the wall fell
I don't know if I helped you, maybe a little patronizing or a little too kick arse. Lets face it we are all fauled masterpices, like dung bettles on the savana of eterninity who can't spill properly.
Love
Ian J
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Date: Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 13:14:38 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: ij
Subject: cult phobias
Message:
Dear Ian,
Hi, I know Helen, I have met her and spent time with her and I'd say she is far from bitter or blaming. I think she was just getting into describing this tiny part of herself. She is a wonderful and refreshing lady who can make an afternoon fly by as if only moments have past.
I guess there is something to be said about the way electronic communications can be skewed from reality. That is a tough lesson for me.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 15:44:24 (GMT)
From: ij
Email: ianjohnson@aresthome.freeserve.co.uk
To: Robyn
Subject: cult phobias
Message:
Dear Robyn
I was not replying to Helen but to Sue, be that as it may.
You are a lucky person to have a friend like Helen.
This media can be cumbersome for the discussion of the subility or intensity of fellings, you never know we might get it right some day.
Love
Ian
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Date: Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 15:57:00 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: ij
Subject: cult phobias
Message:
Dear Ian,

Well I am glad that it is cleared up that I am the bitter and blaming one.

Thanks,

Susan

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Date: Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 22:32:10 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Susan
Message:
Dear Susan,
So sorry about that. By the time I read and replied to ij's reply to me I totally forgot what he'd originally posted or what I'd posted to him. I don't know you to well but do have a strong feeling that you are a wonderful woman that I would enjoy meeting and getting to know. I am sorry if my reply offended you at all.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 22:16:19 (GMT)
From: The fairy princess Helen
Email: None
To: Susan & RObyn
Subject: cult phobias
Message:
BWAA HA HA HA!!
Yes I can make an afternoon float by as if on wings of gossamer. Yet everyone knows that you, Susan, are vitriolic and evil!!
(;
ROBYN thanks for the VERY SWEET words, and Susan (g's mom) we all love you!!!
Yes the limitations of the internet. SIGH. I think it is partly our old evil minds, just like Maharaji said, making those evil concepts. PSYCH!
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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 00:31:39 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: The fairy princess Helen
Subject: Helen, LOL!
Message:
Hi Helen, Robyn, and Susan -
I didn't intend to post on this forum, but when I saw all you guys here, I just had to say hi. Helen, your post was a scream - bet we can all ask Gary about the TRUTH, eh? (Actually, what Robyn said was correct! You are great, girl!)

Susan, I read the post from Ian earlier, and I wanted to post, but I refrained. Anyway, you are one of the bravest and most discerning people I have met on this forum (plus you have a great sense of humor.) I actually didn't think Ian's post was that bad - I didn't have a bad experience following GMJ either, and maybe he does not understand what has happened to other people who post here. I was fortunate enough to find out before I started posting on here that a lot of other people - including some close friends of mine - had had much worse experiences that I had. And, of course, since I've been on the forum, I've found out more and more about what happened to some of the people who were involved in GMJ's world.

Take care, all of you -
Lots of love,
Katie

P.S. to Ian - if you read this - you do not sound all that judgemental to me, and I do understand what you are trying to say. But please understand that some of the people here had some terrible experiences following M. You may want to read the 'Journeys' entries, if you haven't already. Also, please try and understand that this forum, which has been on-line for less than three years, is the first and only place almost all the people who post here have had a chance to share their experiences. I agree that healing and putting things in perspective is important, but this takes time, and it is also important that people be able to talk about what happened to them when they were followers of M - this is an essential part of the healing process.

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 11:37:16 (GMT)
From: ij
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Helen, LOL!
Message:
Dear Katie
You are right I was insensitive. I was trying to relate how I deal with things. It should have been writen in a general form not as a reply to a specific message. I mention the comfort blanket of self pity because I'v wraped myself in it before and found my method for dealing with it worked for me. This x premie traumer thing probally has as many cures as suffers but I do belive we are what we want to be, good bad or indifferent, and have a lot more controll than we belive. Well thats my opion for what its worth, aggggghhh i just fell of my soap box.

Katie are you the Katie that used to midwife around S. London in the mid seventies in an old Ford Anglia?

Love
Ian

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Date: Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 22:48:43 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Robyn and Helen
Subject: thanks
Message:
Let me wallow in self pity a bit and indulge in that complete lack of perspective about how fortunate I am compared to all who really suffer in the world.....

Nah, I just did not know what to say to IJ's post. With that mistake, and his saying, oh no it is Susan I am trashing...well I could not resist. I did think he was insulting and I could not quite see what I wrote that made me look as if I were wallowing in self pity and felt that I was worse off than those formerly behind the Berlin Wall. I consider myself to be a very lucky and blessed person, I have tons in my life to be grateful for, being a premie just isn't on my list of great things that have happened to me. Great things have happened despite the fact I was a premie once!

You both are people on this forum I trust and respect. Thanks for you r supportive posts.

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 11:15:14 (GMT)
From: ij
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: thanks
Message:
Hi Susan
I was not trying to offend, just to share how I deal with things.
Sorry about the way it came over.
Like a bad car mechanic I have a tendency to reach in the tool box for the hammer too quickley and being a Brit maybe a little too much the stiff upper lip with a sprinkling of Dunquirk spirit.
Oh well
Love
Ian
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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 17:56:41 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: ij
Subject: no big deal IJ
Message:
You are right about the net making it easy to misunderstand a person's intent. I just couldn't resist applying the bitter wallowing in self pity label to myself.
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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 03:31:43 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: The gals
Subject: Katie, RObyn, Susan
Message:
I like what Robyn said about how being a former premie is just a small part of me & of all of us. She should know as the 2 times we have gotten together (me Robyn and Katie) we barely talked about GM at all? BORING! But I have to say Katie is RIGHT, this *IS* the only place where we can talk about this bizarre, singular, & downright surreal (and yes, psychadelic CAN be fun) shared experience we all had.

I've said this before and I will say it again, and I say this despite the fact the forum OFTEN infuriates me when it gets so vicious and downright obsessive--the forum changed my life. It helped me unlock this closet of memories (6 years of life's worth) and finally make peace with it. And I've met some wonderful people through it. And I have come across some real slimey creatures because of it--hey, you win some, ya lose some, ya know?

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Date: Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 23:34:27 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: all
Subject: fee fi fo fum...
Message:
...I smell the stench of premiedom.

OK, OK, I know I'm not supposed to do this and Jim would give me shit if he were here and everything, but my intutive powers (and they are great, but not infallible) tell me that our new best friend Ian (IJ) is not all he's cracked up to be.

Plainly speaking: I think this is a premie liar, disruptor, interloper and most likely a retread with a new name and quite possibly, 'Rob.'

He has that 'Rob' smell to him, with misspelled words thrown in as camoflage.

I got this distinct impression on his first post on Forum 4, but waited a bit, so as not to be jumping the gun. Push him a little; he'll pop and like the movie Alien an ugly, freaky premie will burst out.

Like the ole Cajun cook on PBS 'I gar-un-tee it.'

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 01:35:38 (GMT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: fee fi fo fum...
Message:
I type on line and I make all kinds of typos, we need more proof than lousy typing skills, tho your smell may be good enough.
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Date: Sun, Jan 02, 2000 at 21:18:59 (GMT)
From: The Tourist
Email: None
To: ij
Subject: British Teeth
Message:
Judging from the condition of Brits' teeth, I was under the impression that there were no dentists in the UK, of if there are, that they have a high level of unemployment. Gee, you learn something every day!
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Date: Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 15:25:21 (GMT)
From: ij
Email: None
To: The Tourist
Subject: British Teeth
Message:
Hi Tourist
Well in those days we had it tough in England,in them days NHS stood for National Horse Socity and the blacksmith did the dental thing.
Tell the kids that today , would they belive you.
Regards
ij
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Date: Sun, Jan 02, 2000 at 18:07:55 (GMT)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: cult phobias
Message:
Hi Susan,
Just the other day I was on the phone talking to an ex who, like me, still enjoys meditation but has trouble separating concentration on breath (for example) from Maharaji. It's better now, but often when I go into really deep states where the feelings of love and peace overwhelm me, I am reminded of Maharaji and recoil in horror. Not too often, but sometimes. Too many years spent associating M with bliss. I see the same thing with my friends who are into Sai Baba and Osho.
Re: dentists and panic attacks. I used to be able to leave my body and go off into the light during dental work. Same with having babies. Natural childbirth via astral projection. Now that I figured out how to stay in my body and be more grounded, life is a lot more painful. Thank God for Xanax, eh?
eb
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Date: Sun, Jan 02, 2000 at 18:51:14 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: cult phobias and meditating
Message:
I meditated my way out of DLM, enjoying increasingly intense experiences but concurrently seeing M'ragey as a vulture preying on premies. Leaving DLM because of my dim view of Rawatt, I continued meditating but kept returning to a crossroads. No matter how much I enjoyed it, the programming (being thankful to M'ragey for the experience and more superstitiously, seeking grace for success in daily life) continued to make personal growth more difficult.

After over ten years out of the cult, I realized that I would have to stop meditating if I was to get the rest of ol' Rawatt's imbedded fang particles out of my cerebral cortex. I declared a moratorium on meditating around '92.

It's been over 2 years. I meditate without drawing on old programming which ties me to M'rage. The cult reminders are not inside of me much anymore. Ironic that they ever were. The whole rap was how pure our insides are, but it was a good con to get into our heads and fuck them up.

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Date: Sun, Jan 02, 2000 at 18:30:04 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: cult phobias
Message:
Interesting Susan and EB. And remember, you can induce these so-called hynotic states yourself and they can be tremendously useful. I use them for the dentist. too, although I don't have a phobia there, it allows me to endure most procedures without Novacaine (TM).

They only drawback is once I forgot to count myself out of the trance afterwards. Not only did I wander the wrong way out of the cubicle but I was goofy as hell until I realized what was going on and brought myself back to 'normal.'

I love this stuff.

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Date: Sun, Jan 02, 2000 at 19:24:54 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: cult phobias
Message:
And what procedures do you endure without novacaine, Gerry? An exam and a cleaning? Wooooooooooooohh!
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Date: Sun, Jan 02, 2000 at 20:10:49 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: cult phobias
Message:
Yes cleaning and exams. Also I had my jaw bone removed and reshaped that way, too. All w/o novacaine.
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Date: Sun, Jan 02, 2000 at 20:27:53 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: Hypnomadness
Message:
Now I remember my greatest acheivement in mind control. The one that put me over the edge and into the ranks of the world's greatest yogis...

I had to have a crown and he drilled away part of the tooth without first injecting novacaine. I was a big boy and didn't even cry...much.

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Date: Sun, Jan 02, 2000 at 20:38:17 (GMT)
From: eb
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Hypnomadness
Message:
That's quite impressive, Gerry.
For those of you who already know my story, this is a repeat: I was able to attain an hypnotic state so deep with my third child, that I had an orgasm during his birth. This pleasure/pain stuff is amazing.
Granted, I've never claimed to be sane, but other women have reported this too.
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Date: Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 03:22:25 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: eb and Brian
Subject: Now eb, THAT is impressive...
Message:

gerry responded:
I'm amazed that this stuff works at all. Honest to god it's funny. I was Mr. Congeniality at the dentist's office (well a bit more than even my usual self) and it was damn near a repeat of that bliss ninny attack I experienced in Seattle. I slammed my head into my steering wheel a few times before driving home. I didn't want to get pulled over on suspicion of DUI.

Hey Brian, great job on the software. This is really cool looking.

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Date: Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 22:27:03 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: gerry & eb
Subject: Now eb, THAT is impressive...
Message:
This childbirth orgasm thing is completely incomprehensible to me! The pain I was in made me look 'like a deer caught in the headlights' according to my dear husband. The last thing on my mind was to have any thought of pleasure 'down there' in my 'moist region' (which was being stretched to a size of a Buick) if you catch my drift.

That is too funny, eb, and you too, gerry.

Well I can top you! I had brain surgery while having sex with aliens!! HA HA

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Date: Mon, Jan 03, 2000 at 23:17:07 (GMT)
From: bobby
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Now eb, THAT is impressive...
Message:
I is sex with aliens

HAHAHA!

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 00:34:59 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: bobby
Subject: Bobby, LOL AGAIN!
Message:
Hey Bobby -
Now you've got me posting on here AGAIN! Sheeesh! How about 'WE R sex with aliens' - snicker...

Love,
Katie

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 05:49:55 (GMT)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Katie, Bobby, Helen
Subject: Sex With Aliens
Message:
always reminded me of chewing on aluminum foil with a mouthful of silver fillings.
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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 12:53:31 (GMT)
From: Bobby the alien lover
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: Sex With Aliens
Message:

Bobby the alien lover responded:
That don't sound like sex with the aliens I know....

I'll take the warm (hot?) female varieties, the ones that come equipped with clarity of mind and vast, open heart-space.
Dakinis et al.

Love,

Bobby

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 16:55:05 (GMT)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Bobby the alien lover
Subject: Sex With Aliens
Message:
Hi Bobby,
I must be hanging out with a tougher crowd than you. Maybe it's only west coast aliens who are into Heavy Metal and chain marital aids.
Got any friends you can hook me up with?
(Just kidding, of course. In my marriage, I'm the alien).
Love,
eb
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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 12:28:41 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: Sex With Aliens
Message:
Dear eb,
Too funny, sex with aliens reminds you of something! I love it! You too.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 02:13:58 (GMT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Bobby, LOL AGAIN!
Message:
Disclaimer: Bobby did NOT make Katie post again to the ex-premie forum. The aliens made her do it.

Yes! WE R sex with aliens!
even better. count me in.

Coincidentally, I'm reading Mack's new book: Passport to the Cosmos. The visions reported by many of the abductees are my own.

I'm also reading Timothy Leary: Outside Looking In, a collection of 'appreciations,castigations reminiscences' by a motley crew including Albert Hoffman, Ram Dass, Huston Smith, Hunter Thompson and many others; and Allen Ginsberg's last book of poems called Death and Fame. These books are all really good.

My favorite current book will only appeal to an even smaller population. The book is Odyssey to Freedom, a Buddhist Lam Rim by Gelek Rimpoche.

Hope you and my friends on this forum had a wonderful holiday.

love,

bobby

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 03:46:45 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Bobby/Katie
Subject: Bobby, LOL AGAIN!
Message:
Hey you two, it feels like a party on here tonight.Good to see you both. Bobby lately I have been thinking about a line you said: 'everyone is hallucinating'. It is starting to make alot of sense these days.....driving to Baltimore & feeling somewhat depressed Christmas Eve, seeing the stark cement freeways and overpasses, & the old graveyards with miles and miles of carved marble headstones, I saw it for once for what it was, just stark & depressing, and hey, I thought about you. Aren't you flattered? hee hee. What I mean is, I am always trying to put a spin on everything (I try too hard), in the way I see things, and lately I am just trying to see things AS THEY ARE--oh, bish, you know what I mean! I am not ready to become a Buddhist but our talks have influenced me, just wanted you to know that. Hear you're doing well, brother, good to hear it.
Katie, you and me both have made our 'I quit' pronouncments here ont he forum but LOOK HERE WE ARE!!!! Face it, there are too many people you like here and when they make you laugh you just have to let them know!!! I have tried to quit too and I can't!!! I must sneak a peek here and there just in case something interesting is going on!!!!

Love from
Helen

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 04:24:46 (GMT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Bobby, LOL AGAIN!
Message:
arright.....party time!
I'm at work, just quitting working on the databases.

>>>Helen said: Bobby lately I have been thinking about a line you said: 'everyone is hallucinating'. It is starting to make alot of sense these days.....driving to Baltimore & feeling somewhat depressed Christmas Eve, seeing the stark cement freeways and overpasses, & the old graveyards with miles and miles of carved marble headstones, I saw it for once for what it was, just stark & depressing, and hey, I thought about you. Aren't you flattered? hee hee.

Yes we sure is hallucinating. But the depression is a subjective quality. The old graveyards don't depress me like the stark cement freeways sometimes do. Thoughts of this calls for a Ginsberg poem with elegant descriptions of these phenomena as in his 'America, songs of these states' poems. I grew up in those sorts of areas. Elizabeth, New Jersey. Really more sad than depressing. Sadness at least allows for beauty. For me there has been at times a lot of sadness.

>>> What I mean is, I am always trying to put a spin on everything (I try too hard), in the way I see things, and lately I am just trying to see things AS THEY ARE--oh, bish, you know what I mean! I am not ready to become a Buddhist but our talks have influenced me, just wanted you to know that. Hear you're doing well, brother, good to hear it.

As they are...... how is that? Qualites of sadness and ephemera it seems at times. I think the spontaneous joy is there as well though I've not experienced that nearly as often as the sadness. Definitely all ephemeral though.

Thanks Helen, I'm doing pretty well. Continuing the healing and more into Buddhism than ever. Good to hear from you Sis. I really enjoy your company, on-line and in person.

Love,

Bobby

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 05:12:57 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: PMS ZEN BEAT POET
Message:
Good post, Bobby. Getting deeper here...yes, I hear you. The depression is the subjective spin. But for a moment, I saw that stark freeway and it just was what it was. And in that same moment I was able to observe my pre-menstrual mind and just observe it...it was neither bad or good, it just WAS. Being the type who puts ALOT of pressure on myself, this moment (a few seconds really) was a break fromt he hallucination that I tend to be in a LOT which is push push push, pushing myself ALL the time to work harder, to be better, blah blah blah.

Enjoy your company too, daddy-o, you hep cat beat poet you.
Love
Helen

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 12:46:00 (GMT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: PMS ZEN BEAT POET
Message:
That sounds overall like a nice experience Helen. Sounds more like the depressive quality was in the things themselves than in you, at least for that time. An insight to cut through the go-go-go.

'It's never too late to do nothing at all'
--- Do the Meditation Rock - Allen Ginsberg

Love and deep relaxation,

Bobby

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Date: Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 03:19:47 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: Thanks, Bobby (nt)
Message:
gkfkjdskl
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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 02:23:23 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: Bobby, LOL AGAIN!
Message:
Hey Bobby,

I didn't know Dr. Mack had a new book out. I'll have to get it.

Did you see this? From Whitley Strieber's Journal

(Goin’ From One Piece of Holy Ground to the Next)

Y2K chaos—not. The Second Coming--not. Armageddon--not. A million tons of low-grade gunpowder all lit up and a whole lot of beer down the gullet of the world—you got it!

I don’t know about you, but I feel as if we just got to the summit of a mountain that we’ve been struggling toward for all of our history, and found that the view of the other side reveals…more mountains.

This was a very profound transition for me, because it marks a fundamental change in the way I am going to be approaching life, one I have been thinking about and preparing for since 1985.

As I stated on this website some months ago, I didn’t expect Y2K to be all that big a deal, because the problem was discovered in time. There will still be effects, and maybe some significant ones, but for the most part the world simply isn’t computerized enough for the kind of chaos that was being predicted. Still, trillions of lines of computer code have been repaired in the past few years, and the fact that there was no chaos should be counted as a major achievement.

I never believed in the Second Coming. The Second Coming is within us, and hopefully the failure of this event to materialize physically has dealt the Christian literalists something of a blow. It is time and past time to leave their brand of narrow- mindedness behind. It’s so unchristian.

Armageddon—well, there isn’t anybody in possession of nuclear weapons at the moment who has the capacity to bring it about. In any case, even that threat has been somewhat overblown. A full-scale exhaustion of all the nuclear weapons in the world would not bring about the end of life on earth, even if this unlikely event could be triggered.

So what was the millenium? What does it mean to be in the storied year 2000? Personally, I feel a real sense of eternity stretching out before us. We are at the beginning of another thousand years, which is an awesome stretch of time. All of modern history has been buried in the second millenium. And now, suddenly, we are face-to-face with the infinite future.

And yet, are we really? A millenium isn’t even a moment, in the history of the earth. There have been hundreds of millions of them since the beginning of the planet, and there will be hundreds of millions more before it comes upon its end. Friday night witnessed an explosion of human happiness all over the earth, and that was its real importance. It was a wonder to see and feel. Anne and I spent our time with another couple, among our oldest friends. His father and my father were friends, our grandfathers were friends, so also our great-grandfathers. It was a good time, a quiet time with a friend whose history belongs to my history. Anne and his wife have been friends since we met, for over thirty years.

We reflected on the fact that, in our mid-fifties, we are past the middle of our lives. It is unlikely that all four of us will be there to celebrate the first quarter century of the new millenium…maybe none of us will be there.

We had a very happy time together, chatting and watching the television and enjoying one another’s company. We were part of the truth of mankind that night, for in its deepest essence, this truth has nothing to do with violence and hate and greet—those things are like small storms or foam upon a dashing sea. The truth of mankind is happiness—not the great jubilations of history, but the little joys of our little lives, the crowning of the baby, the first word, the pink cheeks of the wedding night, the soft final breath.

I thought on the most important thing that the visitors ever said to me. In the dark time of my life, when my beautiful home and the seat of my contacts was being taken from me, they came to me with two words: “have joy.”

This is the key to our future relationship with them, if we have one. I believe that we do, for I stand on the side of the increase of human happiness and freedom. I want to see us free ourselves from the hatreds and angers and fears of the past, and open our hearts to one another and the living cosmos that surrounds us.

For Whitley Strieber, the year 2000 means fundamental change. Previously, in all my books and all my public statements, I have said that the issue of whether or not the visitors are here should be kept in question. But now I am going to change my position, and start by admitting freely that the visitors are entirely real. They are here and they are available to us as a resource of enormous value. The next ten years of my life are going to be devoted to attempting to achieve open contact with them. Over the past fifteen years, my objectives have been three:

1.To awaken those who have already been touched to the fact that they are in contact. 2.To enable them to entertain and resolve their fears. 3.To empower them to face the reality of the visitors.

I know from my letters and e-mail that I have succeeded to a great degree— indeed, to a much greater degree than I would have expected in 1986 when I started. As things are at the present moment, there is a culture of fear surrounding the visitors, and I intend to do what I can to dispel it, using knowledge and understanding as my tools.

The simple truth is that the visitors, while being quite different from us and treating us in ways that make us uncomfortable, are not hostile to us. There are no hostile aliens here at all, not in any form. The horror stories about them are similar in every respect to the stories a little kitten might tell of its visit to the veterinary. Also, a great number of the horror stories originate with an American intelligence community bent on retaining control of the society for the existing power structure even in the context of contact.

Understand, only a few people are involved in this in the intelligence community. Probably not even a hundred. But because they know such potent secrets, they are very powerful.

However, that community is also going to make a fundamental change in its approach. The US is going to follow the lead of the French in this regard. This will begin with a gradual change in the culture of science, away from denial and toward acceptance of the reality of the UFO mystery. The press will follow as official denial bleeds into tacit acceptance. This going to happen because of the realization that the presence of the visitors offers us the chance to gain new knowledge in areas that we urgently need to make progress.

For many years, the US intelligence community has operated a program that seeks to create two false impressions about the visitors: one, that they are fearfully dangerous; two, that the US government has secret contact with them and secret knowledge of them. Both of these things are false. The visitors are not dangerous. When face to face with them, they appear almost like gentle little forest creatures from some enchanted woods. They take incredible care with us, and have evolved astonishingly reliable and competent technologies to insure that a ground for contact can be prepared within human life and society, with minimal disturbance to us and no danger at all.

The US government has had little to no contact with them. There are no secret bases where American scientists work hand-in-hand with aliens. There has been a little bleed-through of technology, but only a little.

The ordinary people know more about the visitors than the government does, and the ordinary man is in general much more capable of executing contact than the leaders. Thus contact will remain as it has been—a matter that is transacted not between state leaders, but between ordinary creatures, visitor and human.

The intelligence community has also endeavored to limit the impact of people believed to be linked to the visitors. There has been a lot of paranoia about this. It is my hope that the National Security State which maintains the wall of secrecy around these activities will fall within the next decade, and the people who have been damaged by these ‘dirty tricks’ can received recompense from a government that has allowed them to be treated in a very irresponsible manner.

There is one set of conditions under which contact could occur that would not be a happy occasion for mankind. This would be if we allow an environmental breakdown to occur that threatens the existence of our species and our world. If that happens, the visitors may well come openly to earth. If they have to do this, then we will be relieved of our ability to govern ourselves for as long as it takes to repair the situation. It will be many generations before we are entirely free again, and this captivity will leave the very deepest of scars on the human spirit.

You can learn much from the visitors about what it is like to bear such scars, for they themselves bear them.

If we are more successful, then they will continue to stay just at the edge of question. Even after contact is effected, we will all burn with the question: yes, but who are they?

They way they intend to address our society in the future is similar to the way they addressed it in the past. When I asked them how they might relate to us, they pointed me to the 17th verse of the Tao Te Ching: ‘when the best master’s work is done, the people all say, ‘we did it ourselves.’

The less seen they are, the happier they will be. This is because the less we need them, the stronger we are.

If they must come to us because the biosphere is collapsing, they will fulfill the beatitude, ‘the meek shall inherit the earth.’ So I might remind the powerful—most of whom know the truth about the visitors already—that it is very much in their interest to work to return the planet to health, as their wealth and power depend entirely upon their doing this. They have only a few years before the situation slips out of their hands. In my ideal world, the average person will have the same richness of contact in ten years that it has been my own privilege to enjoy. Deeply personal, it is not the kind of thing that smothers the soul in awe, but that makes it free. Contact rests in a compassionate spirit that is devoted to the good. Those who are full of fear and hate and sorrow, as I was when the visitors began awakening me in 1985, will find the process very hard.

Beyond the darkness, there is such a gentle light.

I am in an interesting situation. The great battles of my life have already been fought and won. The fact that I was able to open my eyes and admit the visitors into my conscious mind was the greatest of those battles. To understand why this was so hard, it is necessary to understand the true nature of sin and the depths of human denial—what in the bible is called the fall of man, and to know the strength of the that which so ardently and patiently seeks our destruction. We must understand that everything we do is etched upon us permanently, and we do not want to face that. There is only one way into contact and into the kingdom, to come to rest in God.

Life with the visitors is at once far more sublime and ‘civilized’ than life among us. You get used very quickly to not having any secrets, and when you return to this existence and find that everybody is full of secrets, it’s very odd. It is important to live in such a way that you don’t need your secrets, because if you want to be close to the visitors and the people who have a foot on their side of the line, you will not be able to keep them. The world of the visitors is a place where the truth us known. It is surrendered, profoundly surrendered, to the uses of God.

If we fulfill our destiny, we will also find our way back to Eden. They did it, and they made one hell of a mess of themselves.

You know, if I could leave you with anything that is really useful in the hard upstream journey toward contact, it is this: read Seymour, An Introduction by J.D. Salinger. It is a novel, but also an instruction set about how to go along the road. “Seymour once said that all we do all our lives is go from one piece of Holy Ground to the next. Is he never wrong?”

We’re on our way, 48 hours into the new millenium, to that next piece of Holy Ground.

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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 04:28:36 (GMT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Bobby, LOL AGAIN!
Message:
Hey Gerry, thanks for that info.
I check Strieber's site regularly but haven't been there recently.
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Date: Tues, Jan 04, 2000 at 18:33:30 (GMT)
From: Christopher
Email: planetqwerty@postmaster.co.uk
To: gerry et al.
Subject: Streiber - loud & clear
Message:
Whitley Streiber says (of the 'aliens'):

'...the less we need them, the stronger we are'.

And the less we need the Rawats of this world, the stronger we are too. No?

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