Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 17:49:20 (GMT)
From: Jan 25, 2000 To: Feb 04, 2000 Page: 5 Of: 5


Ms. K -:- the Nine Techniques -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 16:29:05 (GMT)
__ Runamok -:- the Nine Techniques -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 16:48:53 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- The 5 Holy Names of RSSM -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 17:05:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- and the last one: PANCH NAAM -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 17:40:12 (GMT)
__ __ Ms. K. -:- the Nine Techniques -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 17:01:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- the Nine Techniques -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 18:32:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joey -:- Techniques, shmechniques! -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 18:20:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ G -:- Techniques, shmechniques! -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 18:37:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Ms. K -:- A question for G and Joey -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 19:04:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Another answer for Ms. K -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 20:23:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ms. K -:- Another answer for Ms. K -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 22:31:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- An answer for Ms. K -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 19:43:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ms. K -:- An answer for Ms. K -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 22:09:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ billie -:- An answer for Ms. K -:- Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 16:50:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ willie -:- An answer for Ms. K -:- Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 19:43:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ billie -:- Special Shaman -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 05:28:33 (GMT)

Angry -:- Taking the Offensive -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 16:05:37 (GMT)
__ Just another example of -:- hate-mongering -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 19:43:57 (GMT)
__ __ Mike -:- BWAH HA HA HA HA HA.... -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 20:25:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sean O'Grady -:- BWAH HA HA HA HA HA.... -:- Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 01:59:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joey -:- Thanks Mike...great answer! nt -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 20:32:43 (GMT)
__ __ Joey -:- hate-mongering -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 20:09:47 (GMT)
__ __ Angry -:- hate-mongering -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 20:02:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joey -:- Good point, Angry! nt -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 20:25:49 (GMT)
__ __ JHB -:- hate-mongering -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 19:54:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ What I offer John is -:- perspective -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 22:12:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- perspective -:- Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 00:15:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ More -:- perspective -:- Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 03:03:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Welcome back, URL?! (nt) -:- Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 10:38:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ You are a -:- LIAR! (nt) -:- Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 22:20:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ And here are the -:- several reasons! -:- Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 23:47:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ cqg -:- What perspective? -:- Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 21:09:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- perspective -:- Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 03:14:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- perspective -:- Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 02:46:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ And even more -:- perspective -:- Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 03:12:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- perspective -:- Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 03:53:30 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- Taking the Offensive -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 17:51:30 (GMT)
__ __ corvuscorax -:- Taking the Offensive -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 21:09:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- Taking the Offensive -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 21:15:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ corvuscorax -:- Taking the Offensive -:- Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 00:38:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ selene -:- Taking the Offensive -:- Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 01:03:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ corvuscorax -:- Okey dokey! [nt] -:- Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 22:51:23 (GMT)
__ __ Marianne -:- That's an advertisement -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 18:50:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sean O'Grady -:- That's an advertisement -:- Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 01:49:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- That's an advertisement -:- Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 01:57:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Ms. K -:- That's an advertisement -:- Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 15:19:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Not so sure about that, Ms. K -:- Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 16:18:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sean O'Grady -:- Not so sure about that, Ms. K -:- Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 17:42:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cqg -:- another **BEST OF** rog-yes?nt -:- Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 21:20:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Not so sure about that, Ms. K -:- Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 19:11:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sean O'Grady -:- Not so sure about that, Ms. K -:- Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 00:28:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Not so sure about that, Ms. K -:- Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 01:48:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sean O'Grady -:- Not so sure about that, Ms. K -:- Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 03:39:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Not so sure about that, Ms. K -:- Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 04:00:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sean O'Grady -:- Not so sure about that, Ms. K -:- Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 04:53:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ selene -:- That's an advertisement -:- Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 02:47:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Sean O'Grady -:- That's an advertisement -:- Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 02:13:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joey -:- On the contrary, Marianne -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 20:48:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- On the contrary, Marianne -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 21:23:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ Angry -:- That's an advertisement -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 19:17:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ selene -:- That's an advertisement -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 19:31:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ selene -:- as roger would say... -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 19:01:47 (GMT)

Joey -:- m's 12 golden rules -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 15:04:30 (GMT)
__ cqg -:- golden rules? -:- Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 20:30:51 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Rule # 8 for instructors only -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 16:53:09 (GMT)

Jean-Michel -:- Propagation on the net -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 08:45:44 (GMT)
__ mantis -:- How much for the acid? -:- Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 03:46:40 (GMT)
__ __ Mike -:- Hey guy! -:- Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 23:32:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ mantis -:- Pardon me guy! -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 01:17:46 (GMT)
__ Mike -:- Propagation on the net -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 13:57:36 (GMT)
__ __ Brian -:- Propagation on the net -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 15:19:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mike -:- M in a brown paper bag -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 19:48:46 (GMT)
__ Loaf -:- Propagation junk mail -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 09:41:29 (GMT)

Maharaji -:- Group Meditations -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 06:16:00 (GMT)
__ Krishnamurti -:- Giving it up -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 09:45:54 (GMT)
__ Sai Baba -:- Lessons in Lordship -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 08:47:56 (GMT)
__ __ Jesus Christ -:- You Wanna Talk Lordship? -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 16:56:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sai Baba -:- You Wanna Talk Lordship? -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 19:17:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Deepockets Chapra -:- hey, Hey, HEY! -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 20:28:42 (GMT)

JHB -:- Darshan Lines Again -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 01:18:56 (GMT)
__ selene -:- Darshan Lines Again -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 03:29:11 (GMT)
__ Sean O'Grady -:- Darshan Lines Again -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 03:22:00 (GMT)
__ Mu -:- Darshan Lines Again -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 03:15:33 (GMT)

Roger eDrek™ -:- Satellite used to control info -:- Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 21:34:51 (GMT)
__ Runamok -:- Piracy -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 06:23:03 (GMT)
__ __ Roger eDrek™ -:- No -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 08:47:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ Runamok -:- Garbage, Rog -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 16:20:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim Heller -:- RUN IS SUCH A HYPOCRITE!!!!!!! -:- Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 19:29:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- Are you related to Ken Starr? -:- Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 19:52:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek™ -:- Dealing with issues -:- Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 21:23:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim Heller -:- One big evasion, Run -:- Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 20:00:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim Heller -:- new name: Runanduck? -:- Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 21:43:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- Take out your own garbage boys -:- Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 22:57:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim Heller -:- Liar and very, very stupid u r -:- Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 23:38:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- where are all your 'assholes' -:- Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 01:52:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim Heller -:- You mean beside you? -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 03:23:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek™ -:- READ THIS POST! HOT! -:- Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 04:13:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- comment on sarcasm and more -:- Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 06:55:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek™ -:- comment on sarcasm and more -:- Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 08:22:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ cqg -:- Look you two ... -:- Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 20:23:11 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- Rog...um Best of???For you!!!! -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 00:08:22 (GMT)
__ __ Roger eDrek™ -:- Thanks! -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 02:44:43 (GMT)
__ corvuscorax -:- I expect you're right! -:- Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 22:28:19 (GMT)
__ __ Roger eDrek™ -:- Someone thinks I'm right! -:- Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 22:59:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ corvuscorax -:- Susan and i make 2! pranam![nt -:- Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 00:44:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ possibly remembered -:- Susan and i make 2! pranam![nt -:- Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 03:04:26 (GMT)

JHB -:- Important - To Premies! -:- Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 21:27:50 (GMT)
__ X -:- Oh I see, how interesting -:- Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 08:19:10 (GMT)
__ __ JHB -:- Oh I see, how interesting -:- Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 11:21:43 (GMT)
__ Brian -:- Important - To Premies! -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 02:45:49 (GMT)

possibly remembered -:- security for bob mishler -:- Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 20:31:18 (GMT)
__ CD -:- vegetarian -:- Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 08:24:00 (GMT)
__ Shp -:- eat this -:- Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 02:59:58 (GMT)
__ __ cqg -:- eat this -:- Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 20:36:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ Shp -:- eat this -:- Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 04:07:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cqg -:- and this -:- Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 19:06:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- and this -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 00:48:07 (GMT)
__ __ Susan -:- the guy just wanted a Tbone... -:- Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 18:46:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ Shp -:- I like you too... -:- Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 04:16:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Susan -:- SHP... -:- Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 16:24:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- SUSAN... -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 01:23:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mike -:- Doggone it, Susan -:- Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 20:54:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Shp -:- If I may interject... -:- Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 04:29:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- So what's with -:- Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 14:45:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- So what's with -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 01:28:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ cqg -:- interject??? more like PROject -:- Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 19:31:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- interject??? more like PROject -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 01:31:52 (GMT)
__ __ Protein eater -:- Protein, vegetarianism -:- Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 14:51:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ Shp -:- Protein, vegetarianism -:- Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 04:40:28 (GMT)
__ __ Shark -:- eat this -:- Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 10:13:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ Shp -:- eat this -:- Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 04:47:04 (GMT)
__ __ Maharaji -:- eat this -:- Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 08:00:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ Shp -:- eat this -:- Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 05:12:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cqg -:- EAT YOUR OWN WORDS -:- Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 19:41:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- what if -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 01:38:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ cqg -:- 'if...' the longest word -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 13:18:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- Add to that -:- Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 20:14:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- and that -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 03:04:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- Shp, what? -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 05:07:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Shp, what? -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 12:57:09 (GMT)
__ JW -:- M Isn't A Vegetarian Anymore -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 00:48:55 (GMT)
__ __ Mike -:- M Isn't A Vegetarian Anymore -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 15:39:16 (GMT)
__ Coach -:- security for bob mishler -:- Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 22:43:50 (GMT)
__ __ Mike -:- Suede, definitely suede (nt) -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 20:47:11 (GMT)
__ corvus_corax -:- security for bob mishler -:- Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 22:16:53 (GMT)

Marianne -:- Just Another Televangelist -:- Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 15:37:42 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek™ -:- Just another about face! -:- Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 21:49:23 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- My Little Truck -:- Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 17:42:31 (GMT)
__ __ CD -:- My Little Tonka -:- Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 08:16:51 (GMT)
__ __ Marianne -:- Hi Gregg! -:- Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 18:29:40 (GMT)
__ corvuscorax -:- Just Another Brick in The Wall -:- Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 17:33:25 (GMT)
__ __ Jethro -:- Just Another Brick in The Wall -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 08:22:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ corvuscorax -:- Just Another Brick in The Wall -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 20:52:25 (GMT)
__ JHB -:- Just Another Televangelist -:- Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 15:52:21 (GMT)
__ Ms. K -:- Just Another Televangelist -:- Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 15:47:17 (GMT)
__ __ VP -:- Ernest A-ot -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 01:35:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ Ms. K -:- Ernest A-ot -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 02:28:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ VP -:- Ernest A-ot -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 02:46:11 (GMT)
__ __ Mike -:- Just Another Televangelist -:- Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 17:03:32 (GMT)
__ __ Marianne -:- Hi Ms. K! -:- Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 15:55:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ Ms. K -:- Hi Marianne! -:- Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 16:46:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ G -:- Hi Marianne! -:- Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 20:00:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- Great post G.... -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 00:04:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- Hi Marianne! -:- Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 23:02:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek™ -:- ***Best*** and the Seagull -:- Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 22:43:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- **** GREAT POST !!!!!!!! **** -:- Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 21:29:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Way -:- To G -:- Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 21:26:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Ms. K -:- Wow - thanks, G -:- Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 21:22:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Wow - Thanks, G -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 01:37:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ CQG -:- **BEST OF!** **BEST OF!**[nt] -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 20:00:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cqg -:- just for this ... -:- Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 20:09:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Anon -:- Wow - Thanks, G -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 09:24:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Stand on your head -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 19:13:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CQG -:- and the experience would be... -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 20:06:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ VP -:- Wow - Thanks, Anon -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 18:30:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ms. K -:- Wow - VP -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 22:42:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ VP -:- wrong info helped keep me away -:- Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 05:54:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ms. K -:- moms can be pretty smart -:- Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 16:25:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ VP -:- pre-teens think they are smart -:- Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 20:38:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ms. K -:- Thanks again, G -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 02:54:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Minimum age requirement -:- Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 13:44:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ms. K -:- Minimum age requirement -:- Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 16:19:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- G, Read This. -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 01:54:36 (GMT)

Jack -:- Mr. Natural & The Kid -:- Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 03:50:44 (GMT)
__ nimble and quick -:- Jack -:- Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 06:11:04 (GMT)
__ Ms. K -:- Mr. Natural & The Kid -:- Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 04:41:46 (GMT)
__ __ rabid dog -:- Mr. Natural & The Kid -:- Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 05:01:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ Ms. K -:- Mr. Natural & The Kid (ot) -:- Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 05:14:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ pees like a puppy -:- Mr. Natural & The Kid (ot) -:- Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 05:19:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Ms. K -:- Mr. Natural & The Kid (ot) -:- Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 05:27:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ selene -:- Mr. Natural & The Kid (ot) -:- Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 05:31:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ms. K -:- Mr. Natural & The Kid (ot) -:- Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 05:34:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ VP -:- Southern dog sayings-ot -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 02:19:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ms. K -:- Southern dog sayings-ot -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 03:02:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ VP -:- Southern dog sayings-ot -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 03:19:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ selene -:- Southern dog sayings-ot -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 03:26:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ VP -:- Old saying -ot -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 18:11:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ selene -:- Old saying -ot -:- Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 18:28:02 (GMT)
__ Robyn -:- Mr. Natural & The Kid -:- Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 04:35:16 (GMT)
__ selene -:- Mr. Natural & The Kid -:- Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 04:14:12 (GMT)
__ __ comic man -:- Mr. Natural & The Kid -:- Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 05:07:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ corvuscorax -:- Nah!! Must 'a mean't, -:- Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 17:15:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ selene -:- Mr. Natural & The Kid -:- Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 05:24:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ CQG -:- That's nuthin' - the third eye -:- Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 19:50:05 (GMT)


Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 16:29:05 (GMT)
From: Ms. K
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: the Nine Techniques
Message:
To G and everyone, as promised, here is part of the story from the archives where a person received nine meditation techniques from one of Shri Hans' Mahatmas. The person's name was Dr. Mike, but he's not any of the Mike's or Michael's who are posting on the forum right now. I've put some explanatory notes in brackets for anyone who isn't familiar with Maharaji's family history. Please note that Dr. Mike refers to Maharaji as 'Prempal' (his given name. I think there is more of this story in the archives, but maybe not. Dr. Mike had understandably mixed feelings about revealing the nine techniques - although he did say that five of them were breath techniques.

Dr. Mike wrote:
'I was initiated by Satyanand (one of the Mahatmas under Prempals [Maharaji’s] father [Shri Hans]...After the festival at Amherst [summer 1974](which was just after I graduated from High School), my parents gave me a ticket to where ever I wanted to go as a graduation present. Naturally I chose India. Some of my friends who'd also received the same type of present (some just got money which they put to their tickets) and I flew from New York to Delhi and spent what felt like forever on a bus to get to Prem Negar. When we got there, Bal Bhagwan [Maharaji’s older brother] was giving Satsang and we were given a place to stash our stuff and put our sleeping bags out. He was giving satsang in Hindi, so we just grooved on the energy (not knowing Hindi). The next day we were introduced to Mahatma Satyanand and listened to his Satsang for hours. My friends decided this 'Monk Life' wasn't for them and they left to go to a Rock Concert in Ganshipuri. I stayed around for a few weeks listening everyday to Satyanand for hours and doing service.'

'I really didn't request to receive Knowledge. Satyanand at one point of his satsang started to instruct me and I followed along. He taught nine techniques and quoted them from the Bramanand Gita. It was a looonnnnggg knowledge session compared to another knowledge session I sat in with JagDeo when I got back to the states. I thought that either JagDeo had forgotten or just gave an overview of the techniques. Anyway, Satyanand reviewed the techniques for several days with me. I also sat in on a knowledge session with Parlokanand back in the states and he had the same techniques as JagDeo exect just a wee bit different. Each state-side Mahatma taught a very shortened and abbreviated version of what Satyanand taught in India.)'

'I always found it curious that during the break-up of Mata-Ji [Maharaji’s mother] and Prempal, that Satyanand was one of the Mahatmas that Prempal named that he didn't want speaking in public. I spoke to Satyanand about this and the old guy said that it was orignally intended that premies would come and study an assortment of Astanga-Yoga (8 branch practices of Yoga) that had been collected by Shri Hans [Maharaji’s father] from various gurus and munis. That the Mahamas, who were teachers in their own right, from various Yoga traditions would be invited to teach their methods as well.'

'It was only after Prempal came into view that people started calling Shri Hans 'Bhagwan' (implying Lord of the Universe). Satyanand said that Shri Hans told them just to go with it and pay it no mind. However, when the snowball effect florished... a large amount of the old guys (mahatmas) were left behind in India rather than having the family confronted in front of Americans, and the idea of having an eclectic teaching center was forgotten altogether. A large amount of the old guys are dead now however, after DLM got rolling... they formed their own centers and said the hell with DLM. Some of them still exist today and when you ask those who know the entire episode... they sound a lot like Ex-Premies do now.'

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 16:48:53 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Ms. K
Subject: the Nine Techniques
Message:
So what were they? Sounds like they were extended versions of the 4... follow your breath (1); use the mahamantra with your breath (2); etc. (instead of 1 & 2 together as one).

I've also seen posts here describing the use of more common techniques like mantras as a part of the practice. Maybe that's it.

Ashtanga, the 8-fold path is a lot of souped up guidelines for living. No killing, lying, cheating kinda stuff (I forget exactly & don't remember if all you potential Ashtangies can have sex or not). When you see the term, it's often associated with really hard yoga practiced aerobically (continuously from pose to pose) which also goes to market as Power Yoga.

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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 17:05:00 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: The 5 Holy Names of RSSM
Message:
This is from a post on one of the ex-satsangis websites:

The Radhasoami Beas five names are as follows:

JYOT NIRANJAN
OANKAAR
RARANKAAR
SOHANG
SATNAAM
RIGHT?

Jyot Niranjan is very similar to the yogic word i.e. 'Alakh Niranjan'

Oankaar and Satnaam came from other religions as well. The only word that seems to be the creation of RS Beas is Rarankaar and I could not find the meaning of this word anywhere in the dictionary.

That makes 4 + 4 = 8

Still one missing .....

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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 17:40:12 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: and the last one: PANCH NAAM
Message:
That was almost a joke, as 'panch naam' means 5 names in Hindi.

From what I've understood reading (part of) the endless controversies and discussions on the ex-satsangi forums,
is that some 'masters' merely teach 'panch naam', some teach the 5 names, some only teach some of them, some are supposed to take you to some 'spiritual' places, some say it doesn't matter etc etc etc

None of them of course agree, and maybe some feel safer teaching all of this, just in case you'll miss one of them at the last minute ....

You now know all of them, and you're safe and saved by the grace of the virtual instructor (I still have my diploma). Well, I think I should mention this on my resume ...

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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 17:01:56 (GMT)
From: Ms. K.
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: the Nine Techniques
Message:
Hi Run -
I have tried to find a post in which Dr. Mike described the nine techniques, and I think the information was in an e-mail conversation we had. The basic idea was that 'so-hum' was just one of the original breath techniques that was taught - there were four more, and they were all based on different syllables (I guess these could be called mantras) 'heard' on different parts of the intake and outake of breath - supposedly resulting in feeling different things 'behind' the breath. Also, the light, music, and nectar techniques he was taught were much less simple that the ones we were taught.

I just think the whole story is really interesting. It very much contradicts the idea that the Big Four techniques were some secret and holy tradition that was passed down for generations. Also, it calls the whole 'Satguru' concept (that Maharaji and Shri Hans were the 'perfect masters of the age) into question. It really makes it sound like the Big Four techniques were packaged as a quick and easy way to teach 'knowledge' to ignorant westerners - ditto with the perfect master idea.

Take care,
Ms. K (Katie)

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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 18:32:48 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Ms. K.
Subject: the Nine Techniques
Message:

Sohang was taught to me. If I remember correctly,
'so' was with the in-breath and 'hang' with the
out-breath. Hang was pronounced with an Indian
accent by the Mahatmas. I remember this crazy guy
who made a crude joke with 'so hung' in it.
Boy, talk about blasphemy!

Later, m dropped the manta part and said just to
focus on your breath, also to NOT to meditate
during the day. This was after saying to ALWAYS
remember 'Holy Name' for years.

When a understandably confused premie asked an
initiator/instructor 'What should we do?' say
if we're just standing a bus stop. The guy, it
might have been David Smith (ex-somethingAnand Ji)
said 'Just remember the experience'.

Lately, m talked about mantras, saying basically
that they were totally useless and that 'people
don't even pronounce them right'.

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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 18:20:56 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Ms. K.
Subject: Techniques, shmechniques!
Message:
Hi ya Princess Leia!

It was sometime in the 80's, that m revised the 4 techniques that most of us westerners were taught. Instead of practicing a minimum of two hours a day, m now asked premies to practice only one hour minimum a day. Instead of referring to the techniques as 'Light, Music, Holy Name and Nectar,' he now referred to them simply as 'techniques 1,2,3,and 4'.

In the early 90's I attended a knowledge review session with m in Florida, and he explained his most recent changes to his presentation and instruction of the techniques as follows

I just wanted to make it easier, to take the pain out of practicing Knowledge

Of course as I reflect on this today, I can't help but wonder...if he really wanted 'to take the pain out of practicing knowledge'....why didn't he just take himself out of the equation, a la Krishnamurti?

N'est-pas? :)

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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 18:37:52 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Techniques, shmechniques!
Message:

If he knew there was pain in practicing, why didn't he
change them earlier? This dispells the myth I had in
my head that he didn't know how they were being taught.
Of course, this conflicted with the other myth that he
knew everything.
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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 19:04:02 (GMT)
From: Ms. K
Email: None
To: G & Joey
Subject: A question for G and Joey
Message:
Hi G and Joey -
Since you are both here, I have another question which someone asked me recently. Do you know what what reason was given for stopping satsang - or at least satsang between premies?

Thanks,
Ms. K

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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 20:23:47 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Ms. K
Subject: Another answer for Ms. K
Message:

Yes, basically because we are too confused,
we can't be trusted with such a holy thing,
we just mess things up when we talk, I
mean, who are we to speak? We were just
supposed to, with as few words as possible,
point the Way to the Master, and He would
take it from there. I guess he not only
wanted to isolate us from 'non-premies' but
even from each other.

Also remember 'no chit-chat'? I bought into
that big time, one time I made a woman cry
just because she was talking to another
premie. 'no chit-chat' + 'no satsang'
= 'SHUT UP, don't say anything you idiot!'
Actually the rule about 'no chit-chat' was
not talked about anymore. So now it's ok to
talk about anything, as long as you are not
talking about love, peace, God, etc.
Whereas before it was the exact opposite.

What would be said about a math teacher,
all of whose students flunked? Would they
be called a good teacher?

I remember m saying 'People will look at you,
then they will look at me, and then they will
look at you again and if you are not clear,
they will get confused (or turned off or
something)'. Well, I brought a lot of people
to see m, and they were turned off by him
right away, they were turned off before looking
at me again. But I was supposed to think it
was my fault!

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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 22:31:55 (GMT)
From: Ms. K
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Another answer for Ms. K
Message:
Hi G -
You wrote:
I guess he not only wanted to isolate us from 'non-premies' but even from each other.

Yes! As I said to Joey below, the premie community was very important to me when I was a premie. It wasn't perfect, and there were some people I didn't like, but there was a lot of support and caring there - genuinely.

And:
Also remember 'no chit-chat'? I bought into that big time, one time I made a woman cry just because she was talking to another premie. 'no chit-chat' + 'no satsang' = 'SHUT UP, don't say anything you idiot!'

That was probably me that you made cry :). Seriously, I had a really hard time with that rule. I was a teenager when I received Knowledge, and it's pretty hard for many teenagers not to 'chit chat' at least SOME of the time. It's the age when many people develop conversational skills. I felt guilty about it, but it was hard to refrain from doing it.

You wrote:
I remember m saying 'People will look at you, then they will look at me, and then they will look at you again and if you are not clear, they will get confused (or turned off or something)'. Well, I brought a lot of people to see m, and they were turned off by him right away, they were turned off before looking at me again. But I was supposed to think it was my fault!

Yes, Maharaji seems to be made out of Teflon or some similar substance! Nothing is ever his fault. My biggest problem with him is that he never seems to apologize for anything (correct me if I'm wrong). Anything that happens around him was and will be ALWAYS the fault of other people (usually premies).

Take care -
Ms. K.

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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 19:43:29 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Ms. K
Subject: An answer for Ms. K
Message:
Hi G and Joey -
Since you are both here, I have another question which someone asked me recently. Do you know what what reason was given for stopping satsang - or at least satsang between premies?
Thanks,
Ms. K

Katie,

I remember on several occasions, m justifying this as follows.
When premies gave each other satsang, they were for the most part REALLY giving each other....confusion.

With the advent of the video age in his world, it became possible for m to bring an end to this 'confusion', by having HIMSELF as the only source of satsang.

Only m was capable of, at least in his own mind, of speaking about 'knowledge' in a manner that was 'free of concepts'. And when the videos came along, he found a way to make sure that he would be the only one who would talk about it. Just plop your video into the ole VCR, and you could listen to the 'ultimate authority', the one who was so pure, he would NEVER, EVER cause any confusion.

Now some people look back at the video age as the era of 'Knowledge Lite'. I look back on it however as the time when m was heading full steam towards total idolatry (you've already heard of some videos in which that was the message, pure and simple, eg. 'Now and Forever')...that is until ex-premie.org came along.

And I know alot of people who are happy that ex-premie.org DID come along.
And even a few who are especially grateful that you were, and STILL ARE part of it!

Luv ya Princess Leia!

Joey

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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 22:09:22 (GMT)
From: Ms. K
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: An answer for Ms. K
Message:
Thanks, Joey,
I left before the video era came along - obviously. I really liked many of the premies in my community, and I wouldn't have gotten into M in the first place if satsang hadn't existed.

Also, Joey, thank you for what you said about me :).

Take care -
Ms. K
(aka Princess L)

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Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 16:50:22 (GMT)
From: billie
Email: None
To: Ms. K
Subject: An answer for Ms. K
Message:
just found this site.Was shown Holy Name vibrating in my chest /abdomen by a shaman in the Rocky Mtn.Anyone interested I'll tell them all about it. will get back as soon as I can.

billie

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Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 19:43:07 (GMT)
From: willie
Email: None
To: billie
Subject: An answer for Ms. K
Message:
do tell
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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 05:28:33 (GMT)
From: billie
Email: None
To: willie
Subject: Special Shaman
Message:
Well, I went to a shaman 'healer' for some health issue as I recall.
I laid on a bear skin rug and he blew on his hands and placed them seemingly on my chakras about a half inch above my clothing.
sometimes he would blow a'chakra' as he moved on and up towards my head. After an hr. he told me things he picked up - kidney stuff and something about my mother (that I would be ok or something). I was going to visit her for the first x in a long time in a few days.
Well, I indeedsaw my mother and as she ranted in her mentally disturbed way, I would sit w/ her smiling as if I had scotch dripping in my veins. Because - and for 2 weeks following -
I was totally and completely emersed in a warm,glowing feeling fr my pubic bone to my adam's apple area. It was what I would call THE vibration - The primordial vibration or Holy Name or Word that was in the beginning - I don't know what everyone relates to. But I felt love and warm and safe and that nothing mattered as long as I had 'that' happening.
I could be emersed in my core family's dysfunction and not have a button triggered.
It gently left me as subtly as a fog rolls away. There but not there. Within my reach but just beyond.
I would lay my own hands on my chakras thinking -' I took Reiki I can 'cleanse or unblock' my chakras as it seemed he did.
I can lay down as I had w/ him and concentrate on the tech. of Holy Name and get that feeling back.'
Well, it didn't happen. I am convinced (by reading some Ramakrishna.also) that revelation comes either by the love for a dear one, meditation, compassion ,self-mastery or selfless
service. Now I feel ones effort needs to be indeed the single most directed, most determined thing. Grace? I don't know.

It was grace indeed that I found Gary the Shaman. Now whereabouts unknown, alas.
Did he reveal Holy Name to me? He may not know he did, but
I say to you he did. Someone may say he just blew out my chakras and that is what I had leftover. Well, still it was opening me up to experience the most gentle & holy sweet thing of MY life.
Hope you don't think that's sad, but it is what it is.

sigh,
billie

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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 16:05:37 (GMT)
From: Angry
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Taking the Offensive
Message:





This is an excerpt from an interesting site. For those interested, check out www.cultsolutions.com

The words, 'Cult Terrorism' may at first seem oddly combined. Many cults, however, have historically engaged in terrorist actions, and the occurrences of these in the 20th Century have been particularly frequent and horrifying.

Cult leaders generally have a professed manifesto, which often contradicts a hidden agenda that is detrimental to the liberty and safety of their membership. Cult leaders have been known to induce their followers to commit crimes ranging from theft to mass murder in support of the philosophy and goals of their organization. This hidden agenda may simply be fanatical, or it may have a wider political purpose. The organization may even purport to have a humanitarian goal to which their members genuinely subscribe. However, no organization or person is immune from being duped by a leader or group well versed in techniques of manipulation and control.

An example of the extreme power of philosophical indoctrination is the use of human bombs to destroy civilian aircraft and other targets. By using techniques of indoctrination, cults and terrorist organizations are able to induce very ordinary people to destroy themselves and others. The simplest method is to convince the member that their value is only relative to a 'higher cause', thus destroying their sense of personal worth and individuality.

Cult terrorist leaders succeed because there is a ready pool of people searching to align themselves with a greater purpose, and for someone to show them the way. This psychological need clouds their judgement, and thus they easily relinquish their freedom, even tragically their lives, when they fall into the grasp of a ruthless organization.

Cult organizations and terrorist networks are a major international threat to security, precisely because of their ability to persuade an individual to carry out their missions with devastating and fatal consequences. Cult Solutions is effective in dealing with these groups because of its extensive experience in the areas of Intelligence, counter-intelligence, counter-terrorism, terrorism awareness, cult group activities, and occult group activities. These combined resources are available for the law enforcement community in providing analysis and training, and in the identification and prevention of suspect activities. In addition Cult Solutions also provides case profiling and crime scene analysis.

Cult Solutions is dedicated to providing assistance to law enforcement to prevent cult terrorism and the catastrophic tragedies it causes.

CONSULTATION RESEARCH INVESTIGATION
Cult Solutions is a U.S. registered Service Mark owned by Cult Solutions Inc.
All materials copyright ©1999 Cult SolutionsSM Inc. All Rights Reserved Worldwide.
Legal Notices and Disclaimers




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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 19:43:57 (GMT)
From: Just another example of
Email: None
To: Angry
Subject: hate-mongering
Message:
To try and build a case against Maharaji that compares him to terrorists is just simply the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen. Gratefully, the extremist mentality exemplified by your post that is emerging from the anti-Maharaji camp, does more to marginalise your movement than gain credible public support. That said, the danger of this inflammatory rhetoric is the hatred it foments - emotions that one day might be directed against innocent people.

Hatred is ignorance and hate-mongers are the devil's agents on earth. Are you proud of your position in life Mr. Angry!

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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 20:25:08 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Just another example of
Subject: BWAH HA HA HA HA HA....
Message:
Hey, No-name: BWAH HA HA HA HA..... you are really a peach! I can hardly hold a straight face on this one.

Once again you have TOTALLY misinterpreted something that was written by someone ELSEWHERE. This quote says, 'it's possible,' not that M has actually done it. It's 'possible' because, like all other cult leaders, he can give an order and his willing lapdogs will do anything he says. Some would likely balk at it, but others wouldn't question it..... witness the video tape of millenium where a 'security' person states that he would kill someone that tried to 'pie' M..... Does that sound like a possible route to terrorism? The mere fact that he said that 'terrorized' the reporter that was doing the interview. In fact, it so shocked the reporter, that he asked the guy to repeat what he'd said...... he DID! It's on tape.... no denying it, no-name. If M had asked that particular security guy to do something to that reporter, what do you think would have happened, huh?

Now, get your no-name head out of your butt and reread the quote in the post with your own hate-blinders OFF for a change!

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Date: Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 01:59:18 (GMT)
From: Sean O'Grady
Email: seang2@earthlink.net
To: Mike
Subject: BWAH HA HA HA HA HA....
Message:
I don't remember the guy's name now (it's been a long time), but he was a real asshole everday. He was totally full of shit. It was shocking to hear him say that in the film, but knowing what a dick he was anyway, I didn't take it too seriously. He was always trying to look tough. There were some others (like ol Fakiranand) who were dangerous. Fascism always makes the weak strong. I saw a lot of friends go to Rajneesh 20 years ago. I told them they would turn into a bunch of fascist hippies and voila.

Sean

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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 20:32:43 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Thanks Mike...great answer! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 20:09:47 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Just another example of
Subject: hate-mongering
Message:
Regarding your accusation of 'hate mongering' I find the following from 'The 12 Rules of the Community Leading Con Man' to be totally applicable.

Rule #7: All critics of me are sinners and have gone the world's way. (It's a feature of all con men to preemptively accuse their marks of what they themselves are doing, as a way to confuse the opponent.) emphasis my own

Furthermore in the following paragraph from Angry's post, I see much correlation with m and his cult.

Cult leaders generally have a professed manifesto, which often contradicts a hidden agenda that is detrimental to the liberty and safety of their membership. Cult leaders have been known to induce their followers to commit crimes ranging from theft to mass murder in support of the philosophy and goals of their organization. This hidden agenda may simply be fanatical, or it may have a wider political purpose. The organization may even purport to have a humanitarian goal to which their members genuinely subscribe. However, no organization or person is immune from being duped by a leader or group well versed in techniques of manipulation and control. (emphasis my own)

Now, m may not have induced his followers towards a path of mass murder...but what about theft? What about his aiding and abetting of a sexual predator like Jagdeo or a violent criminal like Fakiranand?

It all begins somewhere pal! The roots or basis of some god horrible event, are all there in m's stinking little cult.

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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 20:02:20 (GMT)
From: Angry
Email: None
To: Just another example of
Subject: hate-mongering
Message:
Your master has terrorized the lifes of many people. If nothing else, his famous rotting vegetable speech is an example of psychological terrorism.
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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 20:25:49 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Angry
Subject: Good point, Angry! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 19:54:20 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Just another example of
Subject: hate-mongering
Message:

JHB responded:
When so many people give thanks for the existence of this site, what do you have to offer? This anti-Maharaji movement is marginalised, as is the cult itself. Neither can ever be part of the mainstream. As I've said before there is very little hatred here. I have met with other exes who post here and the mood is one of laughter and relief that we are out of it. Anger does come occasionally, but for me, never hatred.

I ask you again, what do you have to offer?

John.

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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 22:12:07 (GMT)
From: What I offer John is
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: perspective
Message:

What I offer John is responded:
Let's keep some perspective John. Your reference to ''so many people'' amount to 50 or 60 embittered individuals. This out of a hundred thousand plus in the west who have received Knowledge. As for the people for whom Knowledge has become no longer relevant and they stopped practicing, they come in all shapes and sizes. A small subset of this group are represented by the 50 or 60 voices who support this web-site, and the one or so additions who show up from time to time.

So you're all grateful for this site, so what. White supremists are grateful for their web-sites too, as are people who believe in extra-terrestrials. Gratitude aside, you still represent a very negative and spiteful group with seemingly not much better to do than obsesss over something you willfully were involved in and willfully left. There are orders of magnitude more for whom Knowledge has been a wonderful gift than the small numbers you represent. As an observer John, the allusions to Maharaji being a terrorist that you seem to support only indicates how far into the margins your negativity has driven you.

I asked a couple of people to provide documented proof of claims they were making about Maharaji's finances and of course all I got was passionate anecdotal supposition born from a fruitful imagination and a spiteful heart. That's all any of you seem to be able to offer, for all the obsessing you do.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 00:15:59 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: brauns@dircon.co.uk
To: What I offer John is
Subject: perspective
Message:
Firstly, who am I talking to? If you won't say, why not? What are you afraid of?

So you say we're bitter, and I say we're not.

You say we're spiteful, and I say we're not.

You say we're negative and I say we're not.

I guess we disagree here - I wonder who is right? Maybe I'm wrong about my feelings and those I perceive in other exes, but I think the probability is that you're wrong.

The reference to terrorism is from a different site that has some relevance to this one, but not a great deal. I don't think it's particularly interesting or relevant. I would prefer to refer to Maharaji as a greedy, dishonest, megalomaniac not as a terrorist. Would you agree this is a more accurate description?

Regarding finances, do you honestly believe that EV and Maharaji obey all the tax laws of all the countries donations are made in? If so your naivety is amazing.

Regardless of how many people visit this site, we certainly present a more accurate picture of Maharaji and EV/DLM than any of the pro-M sites. Can you argue with that?

You also talk about wilfully joining. Well, that's true to a certain extent, but as has been well documented here what happened then, and still happens now, is a process of conditioning or brainwashing. When I joined, I was promised a direct experience of God within me, and that the giver of the experience was none other than God in human form. You don't deny he said that do you? After believing that, how could I leave, where could I go? As the song says 'Leaving your Lotus Feet, Oh, where would I go?'. In the circumstances, wilfully leaving was actually quite an achievement.

Anyway, you talk some shit.

John.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 03:03:29 (GMT)
From: More
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: perspective
Message:
>Regarding finances, do you honestly believe that EV
>and Maharaji obey all the tax laws of all the countries
>donations are made in?

If you have any proof he doesn't then offer it, otherwise stop making claims you cannot back up. You just like a fool when you do.

>Regardless of how many people visit this site, we
>certainly present a more accurate picture of Maharaji
>and EV/DLM than any of the pro-M sites. Can you
>argue with that?

Well yes, I can as a matter of fact. Wild, un-substantiated speculation does not an accurate picture make. Promoting stereotypes of premies and omitting their positive expressions regarding Knowledge does not an accurate picture make. On the pther hand, the pro-M sites invite people to come and hear for themselves, whereas you attempt to inculcate your readers with cult paranoia. No John, I can argue quite readily with your position.

>You also talk about wilfully joining. Well, that's true to
>a certain extent, but as has been well documented here
>what happened then, and still happens now, is a process
>of conditioning or brainwashing.

That's ridiculous John. If you were to attend a video today you will find none of the earmarks of a brainwashing session. Information is provided and you are invited to come back and learn more. There's no pressure, no devious techniques applied, no sleep deprivation, no programming sessions. If you call providing information that people can come and learn about at their own pace brainwashing, well then by your definition brainwashing starts when you turn on the TV, read a book, take a course, read up on a topic of interest on the internet. So why don't you go after those media, they're a hell of a lot more pervasive than Maharaji. What, talk about God and it's cult programming but talk about the stock market and it's information? Give me a break!

>When I joined, I was promised a direct experience of God
>within me, and that the giver of the experience was none other
>than God in human form. You don't deny he said that do you?

I too was promised a direct experience of God within and it was delivered, and that, by the way, is something you are in no position to refute. So what is the relationship between somebody who can give you that kind of direct experience and God himself? Only someone who knows God can say for sure.

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Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 10:38:03 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: More
Subject: Welcome back, URL?! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 22:20:03 (GMT)
From: You are a
Email: None
To: More
Subject: LIAR! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 23:47:18 (GMT)
From: And here are the
Email: None
To: More
Subject: several reasons!
Message:
1. No person, who has ever had that experience, has been so cavalier as to refer to it as 'delivered.' Like it were a commodity or a piece of candy. One of it's hallmarks is the absolute humility and respect shown towards the experience by those who have experienced it. Check your ego at the door, pal.

2. No person, who has ever had the experience, would assume for one moment that anyone else wasn't in a 'position to refute' it. Spiritual ego is a sure sign of non-experience. Check your ego at the door, pal.

3. No person, who has ever had the experience, would bandy it about like it were some 'spiritual sword.' Intimating that, 'I've seen god and you haven't...nyah, nyah.' See 1 and 2 above. Check your incredible spiritual ego at the door, pal!

Enough said!

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Date: Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 21:09:04 (GMT)
From: cqg
Email: None
To: More
Subject: What perspective?
Message:
'I too was promised a direct experience of God within and it was delivered, and that, by the way, is something you are in no position to refute'

So how does god look with your click ?

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Date: Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 03:14:45 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: brauns@dircon.co.uk
To: More
Subject: perspective
Message:
You didn't respond to my request to know who you are. Why can't you be open instead of hiding behind anonymity? If what you say is true, then put yourself behind it.

By the way your response is full of holes which I will respond to when I have time.

John Brauns

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Date: Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 02:46:16 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: perspective
Message:
John,

I appreciated your response to the 'perspective' offered by our anonymous,revisionist,PR peddling premie troll.

And I'd like to add THIS perspective to what our visitor has had to say on the question of m's finances, as follows:

I asked a couple of people to provide documented proof of claims they were making about Maharaji's finances and of course all I got was passionate anecdotal supposition born from a fruitful imagination and a spiteful heart. That's all any of you seem to be able to offer, for all the obsessing you do.

I'd like to offer this in response, and may I say NOT out of a 'fruitful imagination and a spiteful heart', but simply in terms of what I know to be certain truths.

Right now as we speak, I know of at least one ex-premie who is preparing a report that will be filed with an 'interested third party,'(in other words the appropriate US governmetal agency) that will be written with the assistance of one of the world's most preeminent legal experts on the subject of cults.

While EV has thus far been able to withstand IRS scrutinization, there are other m related corporations and financial investments where he may not fare so well.

Unfortunately, sometimes it does feel that all we can do is indulge in 'passionate anecdotal supposition' on these forum pages.

The really damning bits of information have to be kept for the reports and action that can be taken against the cult. IOW and IMO, there's a way to blow whistles, and the REAL whistle blowing CAN'T happen on the net. Our visitor probably knows this, but in a rather contemptable display of arrogance and deception, pretends that he/she doesn't.

And the ultimate in supersciliousness comes with the reference to 'all the obsessing you (exes) do.'

Really! Who's obsessed now? I know I'm not.
It ain't MY stinking little cult anymore, and if it's crapping out....why should I care?
I don't gotta worry about it:::))

But our anonymous visitor does:)

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Date: Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 03:12:18 (GMT)
From: And even more
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: perspective
Message:
>Right now as we speak, I know of at least one
>ex-premie who is preparing a report that will
>be filed with an 'interested third party,'(in
>other words the appropriate US governmetal agency)
>that will be written with the assistance of one
>of the world's most preeminent legal experts on
>the subject of cults.

Well good luck Joey! Might I suggest you get the results posted in New Yorker or the Express.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 03:53:30 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: And even more
Subject: perspective
Message:
Well good luck Joey! Might I suggest you get the results posted in New Yorker or the Express.

I gotta hand it to ya...whoever you are,whichever member of the 'team' or whatever.... you gotta pretty good sense of humour!
Good and demented, that is:)

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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 17:51:30 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Angry
Subject: Taking the Offensive
Message:
I was just talking with a friend about my strict Catholic upbringing and questioning why that was really so much different
from a cult.
He had some interesting insights. Mainly the difference being that in a cult a person is taken so far away from mainstream society. And what that meant to me was the secrecy of it all.
Keeping that part of your life a secret. The leader, the rituals, the other member. It gives it all a special power. Sort of like having a secret drug addiction.
And so a person becomes vulnerable to the types of things mentioned in the post above because there is no one to bounce the ideas and actions off of, if there are any doubts or concerns.
I may be stating the obvious here, but I had forgotten how strong that mystique can hypnotize a person. And I have forgotten this quickly after years of experiencing it first hand.
No wonder these cults are able to get away with this stuff.
It's good to know there are organizations like this.
Thanks for posting that.
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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 21:09:56 (GMT)
From: corvuscorax
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Taking the Offensive
Message:
Isn't the confessional box secret enough for you Selene? How about 'Opus Dei'? Or the many examples of secret agendas, that have been promoted by the pope and his minions. For me, the catholic church has been just as hypocritical as dlm/ev.

Since the concept of 'devil' is a judaic/christian one, first you have to believe in that god to accept the concept of 'the devil'.

Just popping out to my oak grove,
Jamie
---------------

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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 21:15:10 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: corvuscorax
Subject: Taking the Offensive
Message:
Always nice to see you 'pop out' Jamie :)
Now i'm not saying the Catholic Churce was exactly fun. Just different.
those nuns!!! ha! No wonder everybody got drunk.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 00:38:42 (GMT)
From: corvuscorax
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Taking the Offensive
Message:
Hey Selene,

I have a friend who spent the first eleven years in an orphanage run by catholic nuns. His stories of bedwetters and their trials, of attempting to outrun the guard dogs made my hair curl. Did they recruit from the 'stalags' or what?

Your 'jack' in the box
Jamie
-------------------

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Date: Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 01:03:07 (GMT)
From: selene
Email: None
To: corvuscorax
Subject: Taking the Offensive
Message:
I do understand your friend.
I had a very serious response but I had to delete it. got a bit emotional and we can't have that over here after all this is about that fucking guru.
so,
just know I understand.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 22:51:23 (GMT)
From: corvuscorax
Email: None
To: selene
Subject: Okey dokey! [nt]
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 18:50:51 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: That's an advertisement
Message:
Selene & All: I paid a visit to the website. It seems like lots of anti cult rhetoric and not a lot of experience to back it up, at least not a lot that is described on the site. I have sent an email to try to get more information. Meanwhile, for whatever it's worth, it seems that the reason that Angry made the post was to drum up business.

Marianne

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Date: Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 01:49:43 (GMT)
From: Sean O'Grady
Email: seang2@earthlink.net
To: Marianne
Subject: That's an advertisement
Message:
I don't know about the lack of experience shown on the site (or forum)(certainly a lot of anger-which seems a-ok to me), but I sure have had a lot of physical threats against me just for not 'believing'. Here and overseas-from premies. Never did worry me much when these folks were threatening to send me on to the afterlife though. I've met some toughies in DLM, but most of these folks weren't too scary for an Irish kid from the Bronx.
I've also received my share of hatefilled emails from current premies for daring to go to satsang on acid over 25 years ago.
(And He's come to bring us life, And He's come to bring us love)
Anyway, you go boyee!

Sean

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Date: Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 01:57:32 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Sean O'Grady
Subject: That's an advertisement
Message:
Got it Sean I'm Irish too.
but .. here tis the thing
so is Marianne! So... I don't get it.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 15:19:17 (GMT)
From: Ms. K
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: That's an advertisement
Message:
Hi Selene and Sean -
I wasn't able to get on to the site, but, from what was posted, it sounds like it's a site for a consulting firm that deals with potentially violent cult groups (the people in Waco, the sarin gas group in Tokyo, etc.) Not sure if premies could be classified as a 'potentially violent group' - I'm talking as a whole, not individually.

Marianne tis indeed Irish! I think her remark about lack of experience (she obviously was able to read the site itself) was based on her own multi-year professional experience with the legal ramifications of the aftermath of the Jonestown incident.

Take care, both of you -
Ms. K
Who has not a drop of Irish blood (I was born that way - snicker).

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Date: Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 16:18:47 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Ms. K
Subject: Not so sure about that, Ms. K
Message:
Not sure if premies could be classified as a 'potentially violent group' - I'm talking as a whole, not individually.

Isn't it violent enough for you when a dude by the name of Fakiranand puts a blackjack through the skull of a newsreporter?
Of course I know that this was the action of an individual and not a group. But what about the coordinated action to get Fakiranand out of the country, an effort that according to Mike Donner was directed by m himself.
And what about, as someone has already posted on one of the forums, of the effort to disband Blue Aquarius by premie heavies led by RJ showing up with crow bars and guns? Not violent enough for you?
Marianne herself has posted many times about the potential that exists with m's cult for a repeat of some kind of Jonestown.
Sorry Ms K, but while the history of m and his cult has thus far been less violent than that of other cults...its still a cult, a destructive one at that, and I believe that the roots or seeds within it for potential violence should not be ignored.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 17:42:06 (GMT)
From: Sean O'Grady
Email: seang2@earthlink.net
To: Joey
Subject: Not so sure about that, Ms. K
Message:
The threats directed against me over the years since I resigned my commission in the army of the faithful (1977 was when I couldn't take it anymore-after several suicides by 'aspirants', the last one, before I left, at Guru Puja) were quite violent in intention, though never in action. And this was from just not believing. I didn't even criticize him, I really didn't much give a damn. But not believing is enough to bring true believers to violence. Maharaji is almost irrelevant in the equation. You get a bunch together with a group identity and they will come to violence if their identity is threatened. Add an organization around a leader and there will be violence.But then, I include as violent acts a lot of things others do not. If what M has said all these years were true, then there would be no problem, but premies don't and never have had any more peace and/or love in them than anyone else. All those blissful smiles were only skin deep. What they are is junkies. They get that hit, that high, and that's all they care about. It's the ultimate self-obsession. I grew up with junkies, all my friends became junkies and it's the same thing. They're hooked and they can't give it up. The wind is cold in the real world.

Sean

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Date: Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 21:20:32 (GMT)
From: cqg
Email: None
To: Sean O'Grady
Subject: another **BEST OF** rog-yes?nt
Message:

cqg responded:
another **BEST OF** rog-yes? nt
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Date: Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 19:11:08 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Sean O'Grady
Subject: Not so sure about that, Ms. K
Message:
So true. That is why I made reference to the secrecy of a cult being like a secret drug addiction and all.
I experienced the same thing as late as 1997. It was psychological violence and verbal abuse. But VERY intense. And extremely manipulative. I am not over it yet. It has taken all this time to see how much it became a part of my own personality, it's like I need an exorcism.
Or a colonic!
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Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 00:28:03 (GMT)
From: Sean O'Grady
Email: seang2@earthlink.net
To: Selene
Subject: Not so sure about that, Ms. K
Message:
I stayed drunk for a month. A Budweiser for breakfast can have wonderful curative qualities.
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Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 01:48:16 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Sean O'Grady
Subject: Not so sure about that, Ms. K
Message:
you're Irish allright! yes that works til it stops working.

(I used to like beer and V8 in the morning.)

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Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 03:39:21 (GMT)
From: Sean O'Grady
Email: seang2@earthlink.net
To: Selene
Subject: Not so sure about that, Ms. K
Message:
After a month I was 'Clear' (then I became a scientologist and studied under the lotus feet of John Travolta)

Sean

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Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 04:00:30 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Sean O'Grady
Subject: Not so sure about that, Ms. K
Message:
When the self medicating (polite term isn't it?) stopped working and
after I became psychotic and was hopitalized I hung out over in Hell. Now I'm thinking of going on a carrot juice, alfafa sprout, tofu and Topamax fast.
or I might just get drunk again.

All this in 2 years after leaving M. And he warned us about rotting vegetables!

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Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 04:53:43 (GMT)
From: Sean O'Grady
Email: seang2@earthlink.net
To: Selene
Subject: Not so sure about that, Ms. K
Message:
Careful with a diet like that, it's pretty extreme (very yin). I'ld go with the Guinness diet (It's Good For You), or Murphys if you prefer.
A porch, a breeze, a stout and a cigar-AHHHHH!

Sean

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Date: Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 02:47:28 (GMT)
From: selene
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: That's an advertisement
Message:
now THAT is a scary thought fir a 3rd generation one.

ah but which family? if you are talking about the family of
ex premies well... oh ...
you are sweet.
stick around.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 02:13:06 (GMT)
From: Sean O'Grady
Email: seang2@earthlink.net
To: Selene
Subject: That's an advertisement
Message:
Ah sure, it's a family thing you know.
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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 20:48:48 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: On the contrary, Marianne
Message:
Selene & All: I paid a visit to the website. It seems like lots of anti cult rhetoric and not a lot of experience to back it up, at least not a lot that is described on the site.

I visited the site as well, and I have to disagree with you. It jived with my own assessment of our stinking little cult and testimonials I've heard from former members of other cults with whom I've spent time at workshops.

They do back much of what they say on the site with articles and a bibliography that seems to be very interesting, in that it contains books and readings that I haven't come across at other sites.

I will check with professinals in the field to find out more about Cult Solutions, but in the meantime I find this statement a bit unfair on your part:

Meanwhile, for whatever it's worth, it seems that the reason that Angry made the post was to drum up business.

How do you know this? Maybe Angry posted the info because he/she found it useful and interesting, and nothing more.
I know I do, and would like to take the time to thank Angry for his/her post.

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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 21:23:03 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: On the contrary, Marianne
Message:
Damned. You're right. I need to go take an assertiveness pill.
thanks Joey.
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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 19:17:38 (GMT)
From: Angry
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: That's an advertisement
Message:
No, I just thought there was some useful info
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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 19:31:00 (GMT)
From: selene
Email: None
To: Angry
Subject: That's an advertisement
Message:
well either way, I would think it up to each individual to be able to make that decision.
I stand by my statement. I am glad cult awareness organizations exist.
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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 19:01:47 (GMT)
From: selene
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: as roger would say...
Message:
'I Think I'm Dumb'
But it doesn't negate what *I* said. Oh well. I should have looked.
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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 15:04:30 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: m's 12 golden rules
Message:
I just came across this little beauty, brand *NEW* on Steve Hassan's website. I believe it definitely deserves to be posted here. Hope you enjoy it!
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

12 Rules Of The Community Leading Con-Man

By Peter Forde

1. What you've got is mine, and what I've got is mine too. (This is forcedly rule one because the world expects to see this, and is why they stay away in droves).

2. I own you too, and you don't own yourself, since you have vowed yourself into being my obedient serf. I will hold you to this even after you leave.

3. You're required to be meek and obedient, never angry, and constantly asking my permission to exist.

4. I can do anything I like, because I'm the leader- God's gift to Mankind. Undemocratic, Unimpeachable. The Holy Spirit representative (circle whichever applies, but note that 'God's gift to mankind' is compulsory). For this heavy burden of leadership I, of course, have unlimited extra privileges and income.

5. The community actually exists for these purposes: Give me power over you: Make me lots of money: Make me powerful in the world: Flatter my vanity: Flatter my vanity again: Exist from moment to moment simply to pump up my ego.

6. One hint of criticism and you're out, and note rule #1. Your spouse, children and friends. (Community con men try to make suppression of criticism rule one, and stress it hard).

7. All critics of me are sinners and have gone the world's way. (It's a feature of all con men to preemptively accuse their marks of what they themselves are doing, as a way to confuse the opponent.)

8. Members are to confess their life's sins to me, preferably tape recorded, for use in shaming them into groveling subjection and for defamation and blackmail if they happen to leave and speak out.

9. Members are required to be dependent to the point of inability to cope if they should leave. This especially applies to children of members.

10. Priority of loyalties are: A) to me; B) to God, meaning me again since I am his representative C) to the community, meaning me again since the community exists to serve me D) to spouse and children but they are required to hate their relatives and spouses and to have a relationship with me before them.

11. Its fine to tell lies about who we are and what we actually represent. I wax lyrical about piety and morals since I don't have to actually practice what I preach - those rules are for YOU!

12. People who annihilate my enemies without blame falling on me are liable to get promoted and to share somewhat in my power, always of course being mindful of who is boss.

Thus are the commands of Jesus carried out, and the Kingdom of Heaven promoted.



Copyright ©1999, Steve Hassan Freedom of Mind

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Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 20:30:51 (GMT)
From: cqg
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: golden rules?
Message:
Steve Hassan sounds like he's got his head screwed on alright - must check out some more of his pearls. The one you quote, Joey, is a BEAUT!

But it set me thinking.

Remember that 'Taking the offensive' thread below, and its link to www.cultsolutions.com ?

Have you noticed that (even though it seems to parade a 'Christian' bias, with all those graphics of 'devil-worship' and 666s, as well as the fact that they say that their forum is only open '...to educators, the clergy, families and mental health specialists'), almost EVERY accusation that they post on the 'Cult terrorism' page (from which 'Angry' quoted) almost EVERY accusation can be levelled at Christianity ITSELF, at some time in its history.

Strange how the more vociferous christians are blind to the 'beam in their own eye' isn't it?.

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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 16:53:09 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Rule # 8 for instructors only
Message:
When I was an instructor candidate, I've heard about that one.

Rawat wanted to know about our 'hidden' past. He was not asking for that himself of course, one of the full-time instructors gave the message. And I'm sure quite some of us made a nice letter to Rawat disclosing everything.

I didn't, he he .... because my reasoning was: if he's all-knowing indeed, he doesn't need this. I guess I've been smart.

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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 08:45:44 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Propagation on the net
Message:
Look look look .....

Here's what I found in my mailbox this morning:

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

GREATEST OF ALL IS SATGURU (CHRIST) NANAK DEV JI

This is often proclaimed in the Gurdwaras but hardly anyone knows how and why?

Christ Jesus was the First Anointed Satguru. Within a century of His death, the greedy Bishops not only smothered His Light but they also turned to be the greatest anti-Christs who killed people for not obeying their 'wills'. The disciples of Hazrat Mohammed Sahib, the Mohammadans, under the pretext of 'Islam' surpassed the atrocities of the Popes and his accomplishes the Bishops. Some of the ruling Mohammadans would not hesitate to kill those who refused to become Mohammadans.

But before you would be able to appreciate the qualities of a Christ, it is important to know why Christ or Satguru comes into this world.

In the past Ages, Brahmans or Rabbis used to lead the people and the people used to follow them like a blind without asking any question. Those Brahmans and Rabbis used to leave their tribal homes to take over the headship of a Temple. John, the Baptist was an example of an ideal Rabbi. They did not have any material attachment or the love of their own kith and kins. In giving the Judgements, they were impartial and such an honest and devoted Priest led people of all tribes into Peaceful living called 'heaven'. This Jesus stressed by Saying that the key to the kingdom of heaven was given to the Rabbis, neither they themselves would not enter nor they would let others to enter. That is when the Rabbis had become greedy and dishonest they misled the people. This is amply reflected in the Gurdwaras where a greedy and clever Granthi can cause friction among the members of the congregation leading them to hatred rather than Agape, the divine Love.

The people used to follow Brahman or a Rabbi like a 'blind' without thinking of their own or intuition called 'SURTI' or 'spirit'. Among the Jews, there are recent stories of houses catching fire on a Sabbath. The house occupants would not put the fire off as it involved working, which is forbidden by law on a Sabbath without the permission of the Rabbi. In some cases, the house got burnt down whilst the occupants sought the 'permission' of the Rabbi to put it off. That is why Jesus said, 'If your animal falls into a ditch on a Sabbath Day, wouldn't you save him or leave him to die?' Thus, the Jews and the Hindus were called 'Blind to spirit' or 'MUNN DAE ANAHAE'. Christ Jesus said the blind leading the blind into the Pit and Bhagat Nam Dev Ji said,

HINDU ANAH, TURKO KANAH, GIANI DOHAN TAE SIANA

Under such circumstances when the Brahman 'Gurus' became inefficient and the people were left of their own, it created 'chaos'. Thus, it became popular that the Brahmans themselves 'sank' and also with them sank their followers:-

BAHMAN AAP VI DOBBAE ATTAE JAJMAAN VI DOBAE

In order to look after the suffering people, the First anointed Christ Jesus appeared and showed to them the narrow Gate of the Royal Kingdom of God, RAAM RAJAY, for the Peace of their minds, ANAND. This Gate is to be sought by an individual of his own through the seeking power of his 'ANTAR SATGURU' or the 'inner man', that is to be renewed every day through open-mindedness.

Now, Christ or a Satguru goes by the Will of our Father and they do not do their own Wills. Our Father being 'Merciful', all the merciful 'deeds' of a Bhagat or Christ represent the Qualities of God. Thus, you won't find a Bhagat or a Christ thinking evil of others but goodness with the moral that 'Goodness reaps goodness and evil reaps evil'.

Thus, when Christ Jesus was returning to Jerusalem to lay down his life, two of His disciples, James and John, went to a Samaritan village to ask them to be prepared to receive Jesus. But the villagers told them, 'Let him go by and they don't care'. At this the two disciples were extremely angry and asked Jesus to put that village on fire as Elijah, a Great Rabbi, did in the past. But Jesus replied that he has come to do the Will of our Father and not His own Will. Our Father being Spirit, He sets people 'FREE' in spirit and He does not bind people in the 'letters' of the law. In other words, you cannot 'sin' against God but 'blasphemy'. Thus, by going by and doing the Will of our Father, the religion of Jesus was 'Islam', in which INSHALLAH prevailed and that 'Islam' was FREE of the moral laws of Moses that bound people in the 'letters' of the Law or Shariah. In short, 'Islam' of Allah is FREE of Shariah laws and Shah Shamas Tabraez tried to stress that Arif or Saints are 'FREE' of the Shariah Laws that were enforced by the satanic Mullahs in the name of Allah.

Around 1250 A.D. about 250 Cathers of France who disobeyed Pope were burnt alive and the Mohammadans led by their satanic Mullahs went around enforcing their own version of Islam. Both the Popes and the Mullahs created great HAVOC in the world especially the East where the clever and opportunist satanic people of Khatri tribe exploited this concept of Islam in which the Mullahs hypocritically proclaimed 'INSHALLAH', God be Willing, but did their own 'wills', INSHMULLAHS, the edicts or Fatwas. Mohammadans proclaimed to themselves as 'Mussallmaans' but in deeds they were cruel Kafirs ascertaining their own 'wills' upon others. In short, what people proclaimed was just the opposite to what the REALITY was. That confused people and they needed a Christ or Satguru to throw Light on such matters. Remember that a Mussallmaan stands for a FIRM believer of Allah and, therefore, such a person reflects all the good qualities of Allah. Thus, a true Mussallmaan is in Allah and Allah in him. Such a Mussallmaan never tells lies, usurps the rights of others and he is always 'merciful' according to the Saying of Christ Nanak Dev Ji:-

'MUSSALLMAAN MOOM DIL HOWAE;

ANTAR DI MAEL DILL TAE DHOWAE'

So, God sent the Second Anointed Christ (Satguru) that was predicted by Christ Jesus in the name of Nanak Dev Ji to dispel the religious Darkness that was created by the sons of Satan. Satguru Nanak Dev Ji was the Greatest of all the Christs because He had a bigger Job ahead of Him. Five other Satgurus took the form of Satguru Nanak Dev Ji to fight the Darkness created by the sons of Satan especially the people of Khatri tribe who had become Mullahs in the Mosques. Thus, in Sikhism there were SIX SATGURUS whilst in the Khalsaism, there were FOUR SACHAE PAATSHAH.

Today the sons of Satan have created so much so Darkness again that some people have even forgotten their own tribal fathers in flesh never mind knowing our Father in Spirit AKAAL PURAKH. Down to earth FOOLISH people, who have replaced their tribal surnames by the names of their villages or even district are sitting on the Holiest of Holy Seat at Akaal Takht meant for the Nirmallae Sants, the Apostles. Remember that a prostitute who serves the whole village or town if gives birth to a boy, then such a boy is given the surname of the village or town. So, many of the Jathedars of Akaal Takht fall among this category of their 'foolishness' in that they were born in a father's home but they adopted the surname of a village or town to boost their 'ego'. About such people, Satguru Nanak Dev Ji said,

'HUMAE VICH JAATI JINSEE KHOEI…..'

How effective is the preaching from such people sitting at Akaal Takht that they do not know whether it is right to say, 'HARIMANDIR SAHIB' or 'HARMANDIR SAHIB'. There is a hell of difference as it is between a 'Guru' and a 'Satguru'. Gurus are mother, father and Brahman, who teach us the moral laws pertaining to our physical selves or TANN whilst a Satguru directs His preaching to one's conscience, ZAMEER or MUNN and not to the physical body or TANN. Whilst a Sachae Paatshah enforces JUSTICE in the society without any partiality under the Slogan,

'MANAS KI JAAT SABHAE AIK PAHCHANO…..'

Finally, I can't justify my views in such a short article as you need people of discerning intellect to judge the situation under which Satguru Nanak Dev Ji and Sachae Paatshah Gobind Singh Ji appeared. A fair comparison may be drawn from the cruelty that the First Anointed Christ Jesus suffered at the hands of the Temple Priests led by a man of Judah tribe and the Light of Satguru Nanak Dev Ji in the Name of Satguru Arjan Dev Ji, who was tortured by a Khatri in the name of Chandu Lal by making Him to sit on a hot iron plate with hot sand being poured over the head for a few days in the hottest month of June. Thus, greater the Satguru, the greater He was tortured by the sons of Satan.

So, Who was great? Satguru Jesus or Christ Nanak Dev Ji? Judge for your self.

Ch. Rajinder Nijjhar, M.Sc.
Gnostics are the living christs (satgurus) and NOT Christians, of Living God (Spirit),

This Dark Age is the Age of Al-Islaam of heart and NOT of any Book.
For articles on sister Christian and Sikh communities, visit:-
http://www.nijjhar.freeserve.co.uk/gnostic.htm
http://www.nijjhar.freeserve.co.uk/sikhism.htm

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

One more desperate Satguru trying to catch some gullible servants .....

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Date: Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 03:46:40 (GMT)
From: mantis
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: How much for the acid?
Message:
Whew,boy! You on some trip there! Sit a little zen and mellow out! Who gives a shit? :-)
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Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 23:32:41 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: mantis
Subject: Hey guy!
Message:
Mantis: In case you didn't know, JM is our resident ex-initiator and he has a huge repository of historical info on 'sant mat' and the radio-salami line of gurus (which M claims to be one of). He ain't hyper.... he's got the historical stuff, ok? :-)
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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 01:17:46 (GMT)
From: mantis
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Pardon me guy!
Message:
I realize that, Mike. It just that reading all that stuff did something wierd to my head! What a trip! :-) No offense meant:-]
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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 13:57:36 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Propagation on the net
Message:
JM: What an unbelievable mish-mosh of beliefs and lack of any sense. Funny..... I don't recall seeing the word 'satguru' in any bible translation to date..... he he he :-)

To think I would actually have given this kind of crap some credence in my earlier days..... yecchhhh! Now, it sounds like what it is: mindless drivel!

Hey, why do YOU get all the good stuff, huh? :-)

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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 15:19:43 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@tigerriver.com
To: Mike
Subject: Propagation on the net
Message:
Hey, why do YOU get all the good stuff, huh? :-)

It comes with hosting an anti-[whoever] site. I get that stuff too. Used to read it and marvel, but now I just delete it. Some of it is pretty funny though.

It's like buying something mail-order, and then getting weird catalogs the rest of your life.

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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 19:48:46 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: M in a brown paper bag
Message:
Brian: I was wondering how that happened..... now I know! He he he :-)
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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 09:41:29 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: Loafji@yahoo.com
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Propagation junk mail
Message:
i don't get junk mail of this quality ! I want to complain in the strongest terms.

Whats the matter with me ? Aren't I worth saving ?

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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 06:16:00 (GMT)
From: Maharaji
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Group Meditations
Message:
Dear Premies and ex-premies,

Since I am now I am almost nothing and Knowledge is everything and I don't need money because I am above all that, I suggest that we just start up meditation centres with no masters, no gurus,come to that, no friends even, no labels, no religions. I certainly shouldn't need to remind you over and over and over and over again to practice. By now you should have realized how amazingly special it is. There is no need for me - just a place where you can go and practice. It wouldn't cost much to run and it would be worth it. It would be easy to do with all the money you will now save. This is the NEW PHASE for the year 2000. Now get on with it with no put-downs from me. If anyone else wants the techniques you can just show them, they needn't come to me anymore. I need a break, I'm slowing down, becoming more of a family man with my family in Malibu. I'm tired of travelling the world. The house is now payed for and I can do without these hangers-on even if they are rich.

You are now free to be yourselves,

Prem Rawat
Alias Maharaji

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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 09:45:54 (GMT)
From: Krishnamurti
Email: Krishnamurti@jiworld.mersinet.co.uk
To: Maharaji
Subject: Giving it up
Message:
Don't feel downhearted - I gave up being a Living Lord very early in my career - but then found a wonderful new life telling people that I couldn't help them.

Its such a laugh ! So - there is Life after the Krishna Crown !

Blessings from beyond the veil - but don't come running to me for any answers

K.

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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 08:47:56 (GMT)
From: Sai Baba
Email: None
To: Maharaji
Subject: Lessons in Lordship
Message:
Dear Maharaji,

Why don't you just admit it that you blew it. You should have hung on to that Lord of the Universe thing and saw it through.
I mean look at me, I really do have millions of devotees who believe that I am God. They even know how I do those tricks and bring me their children, but they don't mind becease they know it is my lila and it is me testing their faith.

If you want to be my disciple, just pray to me or even think of.......no complicated techniques. Why would God need techniques?

Anyway must go now to receive expressions of gratitude from some members of the Indian Government who are my henchmen....eeer I mean devotees.

I am closer to you that your own breathe.

Sai

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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 16:56:08 (GMT)
From: Jesus Christ
Email: None
To: Sai Baba
Subject: You Wanna Talk Lordship?
Message:
What a bunch of short-sighted pansies! If you really want to make your mark in the world, you gotta think outside the box. Sure, anybody can proclaim their enlightenment (or have others do it for you) and get a handful of followers...or even millions, like you, Sai, you fucking fraud.

But if you want thousands of years of adoration, people whacking infidels en masse for you, Franklins up the wazoo and so on, you gotta do something truly radical. Crucifixion was my shtick, of course, so that one's taken.

Godhood is a serious business...it offends me to see guys playing around with it. A word to the wise: capiche?

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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 19:17:19 (GMT)
From: Sai Baba
Email: None
To: Jesus Christ
Subject: You Wanna Talk Lordship?
Message:
Dear JC,

Yer man, I dig wht you say........but your trouble was that you believed what you said.

Seeya later Son

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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 20:28:42 (GMT)
From: Deepockets Chapra
Email: None
To: Sai Baba
Subject: hey, Hey, HEY!
Message:
Hey you other godheads, can't we just get along? Remember, we're all just incarnations of god for different people; and what a SWEET DEAL it is, too!
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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 01:18:56 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Darshan Lines Again
Message:
After several Latvian beers and a few Harvey WallBangers I remembered those envelopes that were handed to us as we were approaching the blue tunnel before kissing Prem Pal Rawat's feet. This was preceded by satsangs about how chocolates and flowers should not be given.

So, what could possibly be given that would fit in an envelope?

What stupid arsoles we all were, and what a f**king greedy b**stard that fat Indian Guru was, and still is.

When I find a way to put him in prison I will. I know he will never come to the UK again.

John the demented.

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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 03:29:11 (GMT)
From: selene
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Darshan Lines Again
Message:
As the layers peel away, I can come up with LOTS of nasty things that coulda fit in those envelopes. heh
dried cow dung comes to mind at the moment.
And I haven't had a drop to drink - just wait.
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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 03:22:00 (GMT)
From: Sean O'Grady
Email: seang2@earthlink.net
To: JHB
Subject: Darshan Lines Again
Message:
Love to kiss them toeses
Ah jess loves to kiss them feets
Ah work up to the kneeses
And then I feel the heats

Oh, wait. That's not Maharaji. Whose toes are those anyway?

Bowling Shirt Caught in the Hedge-Ki Jay?

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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 03:15:33 (GMT)
From: Mu
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Darshan Lines Again
Message:
From the mouths of drunkards, fools and babes will the truth be proclaimed!

Guru spelled bass-ackwards is u-rug. That fat bastard sees his followers as something to walk on.

'Charaiveti,charaiveti,' said Gautama Buddha. Keep on moving.

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Date: Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 21:34:51 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek™
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Everyone
Subject: Satellite used to control info
Message:
This is great stuff about the Satellite Pre-Recorded Videos and the MONEY. The efforts at spin doctoring from one of our usual premie contributor suspects is a great example, but, alas, very standard and to be expected.

Fact is that Maharaji hopes to have a steady and reliable revenue stream flowing nearby so that he or his conduits can quench his infinite thirst.

Really, if all this money was going to the charitable organization, Elan Vital, then where are the PR videos or slick brochures proudly showing off all the soup kitchens, hospitals, schools, homeless shelters, and other acts of good deeds that all this money went to?

The only thing the Elan Vital videos show are quiet mountain streams, beach scenes in Malibu. However, reading between the lines one might see where much of this money has been spent in videos showing Maharaji flying his jet.

You wanna bet that from this point on that there will never again be scenes of Maharaji blissfully flying his Gulfstream jet? And there will be no more photographs of Maharaji showing off his jet, driving a fancy car, or enjoying his yacht or a music video that might have scenes of the view from the hill in Malibu?

The kinder and gentler Maharaji will be seen handing out loaves of bread and Tyson fishsticks to starving victims of disasters or war on airport tarmacs where Maharaji (looking like cigar chomping John Belushi in that Spielberg bomb, '1941') risks his life in an emergency aid flight in his battered and flak damaged Gulfstream.

In so many ways, Maharaji and Company have done the dumbest things like video scenes with Maharaji and his jet, Michael Dettmers and his resume stating facts about the 100 million dollar Swiss-based foundation that he ran.

I really believe that the immediate effect from our efforts to bring this garbage to the light of day will be manifested in a new and improved, kinder and gentler Maharaji. And never again will premies be able to see anything that might portray Maharaji as living in the lap of luxury with his own jet, for example.

I wonder if Elan Vital or Visions is planning on doing a massive product recall in an effort to eliminate any videos that show Maharaji being surrounded by his enormous wealth. I suppose a defective product recall would be appropriate. It's not like Divine Light Mission/Elan Vital has never before went out of its way to gather up tapes and publications that were out in the mainstream for the purpose of information management, control, and revisionism.

If Maharaji was only to make himself available exclusively through Satellite Broadcasting and the broadcasts clearly warn that any duplication or recording is illegal and prohibited by law then Maharaji can better control information about Maharaji. You will be considered a criminal if you record, redistribute or use that copyrighted broadcast in anyway. It will be argued you are a criminal and will be subject to a lawsuit from any one of these shell corporations or charities that Maharaji controls.

I would suspect that Elan Vital/Visions is somewhat disappointed that the technology does not exist to completely block and prevent the recording of Satellite Broadcasts. Anything that can be preserved and presented as a permanent record regarding Maharaji is a danger to Maharaji and Elan Vital. Without a historic record provided by audio tapes, publications, video tapes, or recordings the job of PR and propaganda is that much easier.

However, the use of Satellite Broadcasts is a step in the right direction for creating an iron grip of control of the information that could be used against Maharaji. While this technology may not exist or be in place, it is conceivable that recording the satellite transmission that comes through the decoder box on top of the TV set could embed and encode the ID of the decoder box onto part of the signal, say, for example in the sub-audio or the tracks for second language or SAP or whatever. If you were to rebroadcast or duplicate and distribute your taped recording of the satellite single use disposable transmission your decoder boxes' ID fingerprint would be all over it and Visions could file suit against you and terminate your connection for blatant violation of the licensing agreement.

Maharaji said what/did what in the past? Prove it!

If we are to consider the history of Maharaji's organizations and how there has been a constant effort to avoid the press and to manipulate and control all aspects of information about Maharaji I think that we can and should expect more of the same in the future. And I believe that the Satellite Broadcasts are a step in the right direction towards obfuscation.

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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 06:23:03 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek™
Subject: Piracy
Message:
Pirate cassettes and videos have never been a practical legal issue except when they are sold. Taping for yourself may or may not be legal, but I don't think there have any been any prosecutions.

Software and digital piracy is more of a grey area currently being defined. Distributing a piece of software to your company w/o paying does promote legal action. It's when $$$'s are at stake that prosecution is to be expected.

Realistically, M is going to be copied and archived by his enemies and friends and they won't be prosecuted or penalized unless they distribute. I've seen journalists argue that Linda Tripp's prosecution in Virginia is a sham and that her taping is covered by immunity. But I don't think ex-premies appearing before a congressional committee on M's nonprofit tax fraud should be concerned about prosecution from showing clips off M's own satellite broadcasts. M's legal threats didn't stop anyone from quoting from his website (including your takeoff on M's legal disclaimer). Anyway, even if there is cause for concern, there are plenty of juicy jet pics and the like already.

And it's too late to reclaim the past and all it's pictures of opulence of majestic incarnationhood.

M'rage's inadvertent disclosures of his financial kingdom through his followers' resumes are in part the result of his buying them off. If the PAM's were to become the angry rabble of F5, the shit would hit the fan with more immediate authority and firsthand accounting then heretofore mustered. So bigwigs walk away with jobs, money and that all time favorite, THE REFERENCE. Which means they get a title for their 20-30 years of celibate drudgery without a 401k and they get some kind of cash (alot in some cases seems to be the consensus).

I'm not saying they are bribed in legal terminology (altho I'm not saying they're not), but without buying their silence he would have a bunch of them running around here on the Internet (or TV or whatever) making a lot of noise for sure. So that's a tradeoff for him. 100 million dollar Swiss corporation on the resume versus M's former CEO types spilling their guts about his corruption on television.

M's too far gone to do a Krishnamurti.

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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 08:47:38 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek™
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Runamok
Subject: No
Message:
No, the resume scenario with Dettmers sure doesn't look like a payoff. I find that the resumes of Dettmers and Joan Apter are pathetic. Fact would be that they got left with pretty much nothing when the big tent folded. Maharaji simply got rid of a lot of deadwood. Probably a good move by any definition.

Dettmers resume is an example of being creative and making the best out of a tough situation. He's who knows how old and he's trying to make it in the vague nebulous management touchy feely consulting as is Apter and maybe others. Really, what other skills do they have after DLM?

I don't think it's any kind of a payoff from Maharaji to them. Hell, it's no sweat off of Maharaji's ass unless somebody finds the resume on the Internet and is able to connect the dots. It's sloppy is all that it is. And Maharaji doesn't control all of those ex-PAMS like you might want to believe. After seeing that we found Dettmers'resume Maharaji might tell people to be a little more careful from now on. However, I believe Dettmers resume is still there.

Again, the information on Dettmers resume would only make sense to us or premies.

And again, while personal use of videos or what not is legal the making of videos and distributing them whether free or for money is prohibited by law.

The main point is that Maharaji would love to have a technology where one cannot duplicate the satellite transmission in any way shape or form. Something like DAT or DVD was supposed to be.

Sure, you could capture the sound somehow or video the TV, but that is ultimately the ideal for Maharaji's purposes - total and absolute control of the product.

Also, you can bet your bottom dollar if we ever got our act together and streamed a copy of a satellite broadcast that Maharaji's lawyers would be getting a court injunction first thing in the morning. I suspect that even if we were to stream excerpts under the fair use doctrine they'd put up a fight.

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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 16:20:24 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek™
Subject: Garbage, Rog
Message:
Donner and his partner took a bunch of cash out, according to reports on this site. Apter, Dettmers in bzns. Where did they get the capitol or the connections?

Why do you want to argue this? Is Donner your best friend too?

There are such a small number of PAM's involved, whatever cash isn't consequential? When someone runs a multi-million dollar scam, thousands in payoffs are inconsequential.

I reiterate, I'm not claiming that the monies in fact constitute the legal definition of a bribe but that the same principle is at work.

PAM's are put into business in order to buy their silence and they are provided with a reference that fits the amount of work they have been doing (like Dettmers Swiss corp).

Why argue the obvious? We've never extensively traced M's corporate tree. Why pretend it's not there in all of it's infinite tentacles. The thousands to cover a few dozen PAMs is nothing.

Sorry you want to fight about this.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 19:29:44 (GMT)
From: Jim Heller
Email: heller@bc1.com
To: Runamok
Subject: RUN IS SUCH A HYPOCRITE!!!!!!!
Message:
I'm not going to keep posting, promise. But I just had to point this out. We all know how Run goes on and on about how anti-flame he is. Right? He's even running his own private little forum, ostensibly for 'recent exes' but really it's just a place for him to gossip and pontificate to a private audience who are supposedly sworn to never divulge to outsiders the secrets of their sensitive discourse there. Yeah, right!

Anyway, look at this. Roger posts something (hey, I'd forgotten how to do the little HTML thingees!) completely impersonal -- unless you're the hamter or one of his feeders -- about the cult's business dealings. Run then seems to speculate (I say 'seems' because it's not often easy to understand what he's saying. I'd love to hear his music some day) that Roger's wrong, that former PAMs have all been paid off.

Okay, so Roger speculates otherwise. Without rehashing the details, which anyone can readfor themselves, it's clear that this is a fair difference of opinion. Indeed, it's an interesting enough topic. Nice to see it worked a bit.

But then what does Run do? Mr. Guidelines himself? He posts a reply entitled Garbage, Rog (I guess 'Rog' is just to show how friendly he really is) and therein accuses Roger of 'wanting to argue' (as if that'd be bad somehow), 'wanting to fight' and appearing to cover for Donner (another old PAM) as if they were old friends or something.

Run, you can't see yourself!

You are a major antagonist who likes a fight as much as the next guy. You picked this one with Roger just because you're a major grudge kind of guy. There was nothing the least personal or provocative in Roger's posts that warranted your ugly reply. You're busted, asshole. Now take this back to your Recent Ex forum and cry about flaming and guidelines a bit, will you?

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Date: Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 19:52:19 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Jim Heller
Subject: Are you related to Ken Starr?
Message:
Threats and extensive abusive posting. Isn't the word hypocrite pretty lightweight for you? Where's the 'idiot, wimp, fuckyou, fuckoff, asshole' and assorted that you like to dish out?

OK, you're leaving. You just wanted to drop a few lies, exaggerate by 100-fold and fabricate a totally false picture so that people that are intimidated by your fan club will feel guilty about trying the recentexes forum.

(Inquire at recentexes@yahoo.com if interested.)

You've gotten away with threatening people online, admittedly to bullying- can we call that a match?

Yes, but these anonymous FA's! They are so dangerous. They are so dangerous that you will go ahead and lie and smear an FA from a forum that you don't participate in or support by your own admission, BECAUSE YOU HAVE A PERSONAL GRUDGE. These guys would have been the first to wipe the floor with Carol except it was opportunity to get at me. What a crock!

Hope you can still see the door, but I won't be surprised if you don't.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 21:23:18 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek™
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Runamok
Subject: Dealing with issues
Message:
Runamok,

I'm done with this forum business, myself. I simply cannot stand it anymore. I can no longer tolerate these completely inane and out of control discussions with (1) people who refuse to deal with the issues and immediately go into character assassination for evasion purposes (I'm sure I'm guilty of that, too), (2) people who characterize all forms of disagreement as fighting and bickering.

You may consider this as a personal attack on you, but I would urge you to consider this to be criticism of the inconsistent behavior that you have exhibited here.

Perhaps, the only commonality that any of us share is the vain, self-serving concern that we have been heard and have possibly been understood and that maybe others do not think badly of us. In order to preserve and maintain that personal objective we may all, at times, be guilty of attempting to present information that is favorable to us.

Runamok, your response here is not an atypical, out of character response from you. In fact, your response is too typical. It is to be expected. You are blatantly evading many of the issues, including the most important of being hypocritical.

In response to Jim you Immediately launch the offensive with the title of your response being, 'Are you related to Ken Starr?' And then you launch into total generalization and mischaracterization with your 'Threats and extensive abusive posting' and 'You just wanted to drop a few lies, exaggerate by 100-fold and fabricate a totally false picture'.

Runamok, what is so false and where is the fabrication of a totally false picture in the characterization of your behavior as being hypocritical when it is only too obvious to anyone with the most minimal reading skills and comprehension? It's all there in black and white for all to see.

Runamok, we are criticizing your hypocritical behavior. Take it as you will and because of the all too common weakness in the nature of human beings wanting to preserve and protect their self-image we should expect that one might attempt to render such criticism null and void. Or one can acknowledge the criticism and take it into consideration.

Runamok, your refusal to comprehend or consider the content of Jim's post and even worse my post where we were talking about 'payoffs by Maharaji' as being criticism or, in my case, disagreement of opinion on a speculative matter and misconstruing both as bickering and fighting shows that you do not, indeed, deal in issues as you have so often claimed.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 20:00:44 (GMT)
From: Jim Heller
Email: heller@bc1.com
To: Runamok
Subject: One big evasion, Run
Message:
Run,

Why not deal with this simple situation here? Fact is, you DID try to pick a fight with Roger. Why can't you face that? Assume, for argument's sake, that I'm the biggest asshole around. And hypocrite .... you want hypocrites? I'm the worst.

So?

So what does that have to do with your own hypocrisy? Anything? Anything at all?

No, of course not.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 21:43:53 (GMT)
From: Jim Heller
Email: heller@bc1.com
To: Jim Heller
Subject: new name: Runanduck?
Message:
Run,

This is fun, isn't it? Now come on, bro', let's deal with issues: did you or did you not try to pick a fight with Roger?

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Date: Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 22:57:32 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Jim Heller
Subject: Take out your own garbage boys
Message:
Isn't Ken Starr a lawyer?

'I'm not going to keep posting, promise.' and Rog is finally 'giving up on the forum'... Did I get Rog's right?

I doubt you guys will ever leave but it's fun to pretend. You've both said you were leaving before.

'He's even running his own private little forum, ostensibly for 'recent exes''

It's really not mine.

How many times has your bud Ger called me 'prissy'?

Isn't that when you are kinda afraid to say dark and dangerous words like, ohmigosh. 'GARBAGE'!!!

Is that the word 'garbage' smeared on your dress, Ms Lewinsky? We cannot give you immunity unless you admit it, RIGHT NOW.

Really deep stuff there, huh.

Then Jim says I..
'accuses Roger...(of) appearing to cover for Donner (another old PAM) as if they were old friends or something.'

Well Jim buddied up to Donner and then after Donner had come and gone with his go-with-the-flow routine on the forum, posts appeared saying Donner had made a bundle on his DLM or Elan Vital related deals and then he had split.

So, these were alleged facts reported here. Didn't we hear that Apter made money selling insurance to PAM's? Isn't the plethora of shell companies about M (in part) finding a corporate spot to transition PAM's out of ashram circumstances?

It's only natural for someone with a huge financial empire to spread a little cash and favors to his big boys to keep them quiet. I tried to point it out without detracting from Rog's oringinal post and he answer's 'No.' His no is garbage.

My post was about the facts. The word garbage isn't all that controversial. Where are your 'fuckyou, asshole, wimp, fuckoffs'. Did you leave them alone at home? Give me a break and take out your own garbage for a change.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 23:38:10 (GMT)
From: Jim Heller
Email: heller@bc1.com
To: Runamok
Subject: Liar and very, very stupid u r
Message:
Buddied up with Donner?

Donner posting on the forum?

Wrong!

And your way of putting it all together? To say what? You miss the point, Run. The point is that you and Rodger disargeed with each other on an issue that he never personalized. You did and this prove how prone you are to do so. That's the point, bud. Live with it.

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Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 01:52:57 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Jim Heller
Subject: where are all your 'assholes'
Message:
Do you think you are God and know me better than I know myself?

I've tried quite a bit to be sarcastic with Rog (something he is known for doing on a semi-constant basis) as a way of building a bridge but instead he took it seriously. Gerry calls me 'prissy' but when I get wild and crazy (just trying to grow from Ger's sincere criticism of me) enough to use the term 'garbage'(oh so risquee of me), you decide that I am provoking fights. You are implicitly innocent of any such accusation, of course. This garbage wielding maniac has been witnessed in a public place, wielding garbage. Your honor, he must be remanded without bail.

So you're saying that you didn't visit Donner, that he didn't later come online, and that I didn't see posts about him making money from his M connections?

It's obvious that when someone creates a financial empire, enlisting professional expertise, they are able wield influence more effectively. Money is money. We all know about that. We know M is a fatcat.. what is the big deal?

Yeah his PAMs are loyal but getting them set up in jobs by using his financial influence.. is a better way to keep them silent. Money talks nobody walks is the law of the jungle. Survival. Am I imagining the huge web of ownerships that has been posted piecemeal on the forum.

But you didn't post it, so it must be false.

Is that where you're at?

Are you defending Miragey to get at me now?

I'm bored with your war, Jim.

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 03:23:50 (GMT)
From: Jim Heller
Email: heller@bc1.com
To: Runamok
Subject: You mean beside you?
Message:
Run, what the fuck are you talking about, Donner posting? That's ridiculous. In your dreams, perhaps but that's about it.
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Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 04:13:45 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek™
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Runamok
Subject: READ THIS POST! HOT!
Message:
Runamok,

I think I'll let Jim, if he comes back again, deal with your misunderstanding of his Donner thing.

First, Runamok, your prerequisite for a post to contain 'asshole' or 'fuck you' is not necessarily required for a post to be considered abusive and to be outside of whatever guidelines you would wish to impose upon everyone here.

No, the intent and plain meaning of the post in and by itself is enough to be abusive. And, quite frankly and trying not to get personal here, your posts are often that. Yes, you carefully avoid using the 7 words, but your posts still have the same effect.

Runamok, as far as your effort to build a bridge of communication I sincerely appreciate your efforts. And I'm not trying to be snide by saying that. Often, however, it is only after I've snapped back a post at you that I will reread your 'offending' post and realize that maybe you were being sarcastic. I'm sorry and apologize for my not recognizing that fact sooner. Fact is, and no offense intended and no sarcasm intended either, is that often I have a difficult time understanding your posts, especially the sarcastic ones. And, indeed, I'm very sarcastic.

I'm really being sincere here, Run, and if it sounds critical I'm really trying to offer constructive criticism. In the real battle here the enemy is only Maharaji. Our battles and our honesty here, IMO, make us only stronger when dealing with Maharaji because we're learning to be honest with each other, something Maharaji knows nothing about.

Actually, Run, as long as maybe we might be talking here, I'd like to talk about the Maharaji payoff thing. For the sake of argument let's assume that Maharaji has, indeed, paid off some people. We might even have one such example in Australia.

I really think that many of the big honchos in DLM/EV were the shrewd leftovers of the '60s radical hippie era. In fact, Donner and, hell, Rennie Davis were, indeed, big names in the movement. These guys were already adept in building and organizing organizations that allowed them the freedom, autonomy, and cash to do what they wanted and what they pleased without having to have a day job. Sure, the motives were noble and sincere during the war and even during the early glory days of DLM. After all, we were going to save the world. Consider that at the time Maharaji was only 13, 15 or 18.

Maharaji probably didn't have a fucking clue as to what was going on. Nor do I think that he wanted to be bothered with the details either. In fact, GET THIS! Maharaji was probably too stoned, too drunk, too busy watching TV, and too busy fucking to really give a damn. Oh, Runamok, regardless of our disagreement those lines are worth all the trouble and all the time where we really got in and discussed this issue like we should be doing here! Nah, I don't want the credit. It's the fruit of a discussion where we disagreed. I love it. We fucking worked something out here that adds depth to the original post.

Let me say those sentences again because it's so damn right on:

Maharaji probably didn't have a fucking clue as to what was going on. Nor do I think that he wanted to be bothered with the details either. In fact, GET THIS! Maharaji was probably too stoned, too drunk, too busy watching TV, and too busy fucking to really give a damn.

Runamok, it's my personal, yes, personal experience, where I've seen people get rich from the fruits of DLM/EV and, hell, basically on the backs of premie slave labor and it was more of an evolved happenstance where DLM/EV had to divest to ensure retention of their tax exempt status. I really do not believe that Maharaji hand selected these people. And more importantly is that at that time these people did not need to be bought off because they were the faithful. Still, Maharaji received money from these ventures through hefty donations as we've seen via the Amtext model.

As for Donner and maybe others, I'd guess and bet that Donner ended up stealing the money from Maharaji. We need to consider that a lot of the business action was based on a good ol' boy network of PAMs whom worked, I believe, autonomously of Maharaji. While none of us has the exact details, I think that it might be fair to assume that Donner as the autonomous agent that he was latched onto some book contract somewhere and got a big piece of the action in a one time deal. Donner might have brokered or acted as a middleman for a single deal of a warehouse of books that had been gathered by the Bookies.

I remember the old jumbling days where there would be a warehouse or truckload of clothing and fabric. While the people that donated that stuff might have thought that those clothes would end up in thrift stores or given to the poor they weren't. Hell, when I joined up I gave a boatload of fine clothes and I was seeing them for years on backs of ashram premies. The ashram or Divine Sales premies had first pick and then most of those clothes got bulk sold and ended up in Africa or other third world nations or in fiber and fabric recycling mills where they were turned into those goofy throw rugs or fiber for industrial use.

The people that paid or lost out versus Mike Donner's and his self-service severance package windfall might have been Maharaji or the little Bookies who did all the work. But, I'd bet that there might have been enough money out of the deal for Donner to send Maharaji some cash for the purposes of remaining within standard operating parameters and not to raise suspicion on the part of Maharaji. Thus, there was no man hunt to track down Donner and Donner has no animosity towards Maharaji. I'm only speculating based on what I saw of the Good Ol' Boy network here.

And now Donner owns some kind of gentleman herb farm in the Okanagon Valley of B.C. Think about it. Back then it probably cost nothing. Think about the fabulous produce like apples and peaches and stuff that comes out of the OK Valley. Get the picture? I might be being slanderous here and that is for goddamn sure! Sue me, motherfucker. I ain't got fucking nothing. I didn't get out of DLM with fucking squat like you did, Mr. D. of the Midland 13 or whatever-the-fuck. I'm just a fucking working stiff who lost about 10 good years to your Boss.

And don't forget that there were plenty of good ol' boy networked drug deals in the '70s with tentacles reaching as far as South America were the dope might have been muled up to Miami or Kissimmee for pickup and distribution. Believe me when I say that indeed saw one such operation. Alas, I was not part of it. I only did the 'math' and came up the answer.

Again, the Dettmers' resume thing is a nothing. Doesn't cost Maharaji a nickel. Can Dettmers provide any references to back up his claims? I doubt it. It's just your standard resume fluff.

Anyway, Run, I think this has been fruitful.

With gratefulness that you are here and not with Maharaji like your or I could still be,

Roger

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Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 06:55:24 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek™
Subject: comment on sarcasm and more
Message:
OK, I accept your apology at face value. I'm really not prissy, prudish and all of that. It's no fun getting called all these names, but I'm more concerned over other flaming events that didn't happen to me, but I'll get to that. I don't need to get fucking flowers.

Here's part of yours:
'it is only after I've snapped back a post at you that I will reread your 'offending' post and realize that maybe you were being sarcastic'

The problem I have with this is that you're really the one who is always throwing sarcasm into everything. Remember those really vicious fights and you would throw into it that Heller had a bounty on his head from Elan Vital. You are always doing that shit! I would ignore it. I lived thru that shit myself, how funny is it?

Look at how much sarcasm you have expected me to understand from you!!!! This is part of what 'a customer' tried to say to you on AG. That's passive agressive, never being able to pin someone down to have a serious conversation.

We're talking now so... OK good.

I stand by what I said about PAM's in general. What we need to do is develop a more complex tree of M's corporate structures. That's why I was so into what Mary was doing. It had nothing to do with any of the personality bullshit. You've said you could prob forgive. I'm not so needy as to need a big soggy reconciliation. We need to make the simple guidelines work and stick to them.

Having different forums for different purposes can help. Taking fights to AG, or talking computers exesonly- why is this so provocative?

Anyway, I can see that you have put thought and work into your corporate insights. It doesnt change the facts as I see them.

This is semantics. Crooks don't write checks with payoff in the memo. They leave a shipment of stuff off the books and wink. Any kind of severance is a severance. It's not a case of Donner only. It's Galway or whoever. Devotion is fine but greasing the pam palms is safer. They know too much.

If we traced all those ownerships and came up with some sort of tree we might have something for the journalists. I know some journalists who hated M'ragey in the 70's. They live and it's the fatcat angle they would like to see. I emailed you about this when Mary first started posting ownerships saying how important it was.

Whose personality games are at work? I've been accused of it a lot, but I've had consistent beliefs and consistent goals in the years that I've been involved with EPO and forums. Getting the jump on the corporate game is the real game that's been neglected in all of this personality BS and its time to recognize that.

I wrote you about corporate ownerships and Mary immediately, offering to help construct such pages. I had hoped you would remember this and think about it (and understand
it was something I was committed to). The idea that I was completely without any logic on a personal vendetta was a smear thing.

i don't know how to close this. I'm not trying to open old wounds but I'm trying to get us on track. I hope you can see that because I know it's not going to be that easy.

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Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 08:22:31 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek™
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Runamok
Subject: comment on sarcasm and more
Message:
Yes, I'm very sarcastic. Although I thought it was more of a very dry wit.

Anyway, I still disagree about the PAMs. I like my analysis of the Donner thing. I knew one of the early Denver PAMs and Secretaries of Finance or whatever it was. A lot of these characters came from wealthy families and had dough on the side. I still believe that a lot of these cats simply acted as middlemen or brokers and skimmed heavily off of the top. There was also, I suspect, a lot of networking going on like Robert Jacobs, Jim Emerson, etc. Heck, a lot of Dettmers clients are premie companies. Really more of a buddy-buddy thing, IMO.

PAMs like Gallwey and others...

I think that some of them are sincerely devoted to Maharaji and believe in it all. They're riding high, living in L.A. or Malibu or Thousand Oaks, Agoura Hills. It's the fucking good life down there, Run. Get to see the Lord, front row seats, people treat you with respect. I don't see the need for a payoff. They're getting plenty and they are true believers.

Hell, they're going to be my neighbors when I move out there in a few months.

I've got the corporate data, Run. It's ok. It's a lot of work. I've got about one quarter of it posted. The real problem is we do not have the expertise nor the time to really understand what it means. And so much of it is private. Some is offshore, Switzerland, Oz, UK, etc. He's got us beat. He's got the money to hire the world's best to keep it secret.

I'd say that it's a job for the IRS and it would cost them at least $100k to have experts look at this stuff and come up with the dirt. And the IRS won't do that unless there is a political reason or unless they can smell huge fines to cover the expense and bring in a profit.

What I don't understand is what is really plainly obvious and can be seen from as far away as PCH1 about a half a mile up the road on the pullout on the west side of the road and you look east or is that really north from there you can see this huge fucking tan house. Absolutely huge! No other structure that big anywhere.

And then if at the same time you could see the current tax return for Maharaji you'd pull your hair out and scream bloody murder because there's no way it can add up.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 20:23:11 (GMT)
From: cqg
Email: None
To: Jim Heller
Subject: Look you two ...
Message:
Look you two ... just kiss and fucking make up will ya?
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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 00:08:22 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek™
Subject: Rog...um Best of???For you!!!!
Message:
I think you made some great points there. Shame to see them lost in the archives. You deserve a best of yourself. Don't be too modest to take it.
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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 02:44:43 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek™
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Susan
Subject: Thanks!
Message:
Thanks, Susan. Yes, I'm thinking about putting a lot of those posts in the Corporate Section under Editorial Ramblings.

It's interesting to attempt to delve into the minds of the enemy to understand what their strategic options are. Much of my work at the Agency as a Section Analyst was exactly this. Unfortunately, the damn Ayatollah debacle cost me my job. I sided with the 'If you've got a problem Eddy's (as in Teller) got a bomb' old school, but was overruled by the doves in the Agency, if you can believe that.

Worked a few black ops with the Contras and then finally left the business for good after that asshole Wilson and the missing C-4 episode caused a major Congressional investigation and put the kabash on that line of work. Somethings are simply best left to the professionals and the details should be ignored when the outcome is the only thing that matters.

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Date: Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 22:28:19 (GMT)
From: corvuscorax
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek™
Subject: I expect you're right!
Message:
Though, don't be giving ev any ideas, Roger!

One would expect that, m's mission control is already contemplating the prospect of what is outlined; in this thread.

Ain't technology wunnerful? Plumb out of, fresh ideas!
Jamie
---------

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Date: Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 22:59:30 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek™
Email: drek@oz.net
To: corvuscorax
Subject: Someone thinks I'm right!
Message:
Oh, happy day! Someone expects I'm right!!!

No more hell for this redeemed sinner!

I'm free! Free any old time. Free to party! Free to get loaded and ride my chopper!

Ok, enuff about me and my transient redemption as they will surely change as we will all die in the end as Maharaji says.

Yes, I should be on the EV payroll. I'm the best friend they've got coming up with all these ideas for them. I offered myself to them back then, but the only thing I was qualified for was cleaning toilets. How different it might have been. And if they had seen and used my genius I'd be living in Malibu or on my herb ranch in B.C. I'd be Internet security by now. Putting a mole deep into the ex-premie.org. You bet I would be doing that. Oh, oh, what am I saying? I'm I talking too much again.

No, no, not that! Not back to HELL! Wild Ferns simply do not tolerate heat and no water.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 00:44:40 (GMT)
From: corvuscorax
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek™
Subject: Susan and i make 2! pranam![nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 03:04:26 (GMT)
From: possibly remembered
Email: webtravler7643@webtv.net
To: corvuscorax
Subject: Susan and i make 2! pranam![nt
Message:
to:jamiethe spelling in the post was hasty so thanks for a critique. i believe suedo was supposed to be psuedo.drop or send an e-mail if you chance otherwise take it slow, slower,or slowly.
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Date: Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 21:27:50 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Important - To Premies!
Message:
Dear Premies,

If you are still donating money to Maharaji or EV, STOP NOW! He will soon be totally withdrawing from his 'work', and you will regret ever giving anything. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but someday soon and for the rest of your life. You will regret it. Better to keep hold of it now and cut your losses.

You know in your heart that I'm right.

John the helper of premies.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 08:19:10 (GMT)
From: X
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Oh I see, how interesting
Message:
>John the helper of premies.

John who?

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Date: Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 11:21:43 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: X
Subject: Oh I see, how interesting
Message:

JHB responded:
John Brauns, I live in London, England. I'm in the book.

Why do you ask?

John.

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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 02:45:49 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@tigerriver.com
To: JHB
Subject: Important - To Premies!
Message:
Couldn't agree with you more, JHB.

Maharaji has finally established enough 'World Peace' to retire on. The interest alone would finance a small country's economy.

Thank God Maharaji Came!!! He has rescued so many people from the River Of Bondage To Moolah. How will they ever repay him???

By their Gratitude, of course. It's the least they could feel. The very least...

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Date: Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 20:31:18 (GMT)
From: possibly remembered
Email: webtravler7643@webtv.net
To: Everyone
Subject: security for bob mishler
Message:
when i was with dlm january of 74 security for mahara ji was holy family and indian initiators bahari sing, padarthanand, others, ect. all following bob mishlers openings and leads mahara ji included. since that time i've been paranoid to the fact that mahara ji is so strict with his personality when it comes to the hierachy of his past master and his past masters master. its great mahara ji likes to propogate but it has been hard banking all i gathered from the association. now i spend time writing in my spare time about the cure for what ails the world today and sometimes the possibility of vegetarian comercials on tv for fast food restaurants and changing beneficial effects such comercial topics would have around the world. comercials are an interesting topic and not yet a finished topic. comercials are a good topic for someone wanting to get on in a jornalistic or economic market. anyway i try to keep up with mahara ji via computer but i'm sure since 1974 i've missed about all that was going on at the time having not followed except for the vegetarian aspect since the early mid 1980's. i used to think mahare ji controlled half of india now i think he's just a normal suedo vegetarian strugling in todays economy? even though its not that important to me to be anonomus its nice to have that convience. hoping everyone will have a healthy 1999-2000 beginning. anyone who can or enjoys writing feel free with matching response.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 08:24:00 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: possibly remembered
Subject: vegetarian
Message:
A diet of rice and lentils with vegetables and yogurt can certainly keep you in a healthy zone.
I admit to overdoing the butter and cayenne.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 02:59:58 (GMT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: possibly remembered
Subject: eat this
Message:
Dear pr,

From my own experience, I feel better when I eat just what comes from the earth, plus maybe some organic honey, eggs, and a little dairy if it doesn't have bovine growth hormone. Total veganism
(perhaps from Vega?) is cool too, but it's next to impossible in the middle of the culture that is totally opposite. Our family eats some flesh foods now and I did not used to. Kids growing up in urban society, etc. But you know what?

Our sons now prefer a healthy salad and some broiled fish or rice and veggies to Burger King and all that. We gave them the freedom to discover for themselves what felt right going through them, and they definitely learned from experience on that one. They remark how the bathroom stinks extra bad when they have had fast food and their stomach doesn't feel as good as when they eat good food.

Experience is the best teacher. And we knew that if we made big taboos, those taboos would act as magnets on the kids. So we let them discover for themselves and it's working out.

A wise old botanist and nature lover told me not to sweat it. He said to observe the birds, who feed their young worms and the adult birds just eat seed. Nature does provide some lessons.

As for Maharaji, I heard a story about a time he went to Kingston Jamaica back in the 70's or early 80's. There were a couple of premie factions fighting over which veggie restaurant was the purest one to take Maharaji to. Story goes he split from that uptight situation and went out for steak. I personally think he did that as a teaching if the story is true, not because he craved steak that night.

If you gotta eat a fellow animal, give thanks for its sacrifice to the Creator and bless yer food and chew it good. If that does not appeal to you, check out the International Biogenic Society which publishes the Essene Gospels, including a diet straight from our Mother as recorded allegedly in the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Another story goes that from the time of the legendary Genesis of the Bible until Leviticus - wherein Moses is leading his people through the desert - the Creator designated human food as every green herb, fruits, etc. Then the Creator 'gave' Moses the Kosher laws, embedded them in the minds and hearts of the 'chosen people' the children of Israel (keepers of the Holy Name at the time), since they were nomadic and had to survive without being able to hang out and till fields, since they were constantly on the move. Basically, all scavengers were taboo (because they were scavengers and therefore probably disease-ridden). In this way I believe that not only the Jews, but the whole human race was evolved and refined, by diet and nutrition, at least physically.

I know some real nice folks imo who eat chitlins, and some real assholes imo who eat only veggies. It's what comes out that defiles the soul, not what goes in.

I like Maharaji's thing about the way a critter takes in liquids
being a signal of what kind of diet they originally were designed to have.

Hope some of this was enjoyed and put forth some worthwhile information to somebody. I know some of you would rather not even see my initials, so to those of you who feel such, look the
other way NOW.

Shp

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Date: Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 20:36:28 (GMT)
From: cqg
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: eat this
Message:
Sandy, you say:

'I like Maharaji's thing about the way a critter takes in liquids being a signal of what kind of diet they originally were designed to have.

Lappers as opposed to suckers eh?

And our canine teeth? Where'd they come from then?

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Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 04:07:52 (GMT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: cqg
Subject: eat this
Message:
Tried ripping any raw flesh with those teeny canines lately?
I am sure you could if you had to...I'm heading for the salad bar Ever heard of evolution?
We also have a reptilian level in our brain.
So you want to be a carniverous reptile because you have the parts? Go for it.
Whatever you pay attention to is what you get more of.
If you want big canine teeth, eat raw red meat and pass that on to your future generations.
If you want bigger brains, do what the dolphins do and PLAY more, and maybe switch to fish.
Ahhh, it's a lovely night.
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Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 19:06:17 (GMT)
From: cqg
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: and this
Message:
Not satisfied with the human condition, Sandy? Sure we evolve, but why look down on what we've evolved from? That was us too.

And as for that 'Reptilian level in our brain'. Ain't it called the pineal gland? (so beloved of you third eye/third techniquers)

Dolphins in the wild can be just that - wild, 'specially when ripping into their dinner. 'Nature is red, in tooth and claw' some wise person once observed.

Bigger brains? Let's use more of what we've been given, huh?

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 00:48:07 (GMT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: cqg
Subject: and this
Message:
and regardless of what anyone else does, let us love and enlarge the capacity of our hearts as well as our brains.

as for where we've been, we all used to shit our diapers too.
and spit up on everything. but we have grown up. do i really need to remember that i used to shit my diaper? i have more important things to keep on the desktop of my brain.

i could be wrong, but i don't think that the pineal gland is part of the reptilian brain. i am going to consult a book about it later since you brought it up. and even if it is, so what?
i was referring to the lower level consciousness that our ancestor had to work through so we could be here now yakking about it.

i know dolphins can drop a shark by broadsiding it with their noses and disabling it so that it cannot swim. it sinks and dies. i also know they eat flesh. i was referring to the big picture of their exsistence, not just the raw blood and tooth part.

you have strained at details and missed the point, or else got the point and are just being pissy. either way, we are here.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 18:46:51 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: the guy just wanted a Tbone...
Message:
If he taught anyone anything it was because they wanted to see the message. He was on vacation, I am sure he found the premies arguing about the 'pure' resturant laughable. Rawat is not 'pure' in the least. Unless it is purely without conscience.

Sandy, you know that I like you, I do not mean this as a personal affront to your beliefs, but please, I think deep down you know he is not a master or a good guy.

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Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 04:16:39 (GMT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: I like you too...
Message:
but I KNOW no such thing deep down. If that were true, I would be moving on. It has been an eye opener realizing up close that a Master is also a human being. I was waiting for a perfect man too.

A man named Moses channeled the Ten Commandments into the human race. These laws are the foundation for most all the just laws in existence since. They helped to bring the human race a few steps further out of the primordial slime.

He also killed a man.

Go figure.

Love,
Shp

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Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 16:24:02 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: SHP...
Message:
I just can't see it. I cannot see comparing Rawat to Moses. I still think it is a case of the Emporers New Clothes. I think whatever good or wisdom you are giving Rawat credit for is something that has been in you all the time. He just exploits it and takes credit for it. One thing I noticed that took awhlie after becoming an ex is to know that many of may fellow humans have the same insights and spirituality that I attributed to the guru and people being premies. In fact, I think being willing to look at your soul without a 'guru' is a much braver course of action. As you know too, I think very little of premies or the guru on a moral level because of some of my experiences. Just how can the guru be a decent guy and let the things he does happen? SHP, you have more guts than he does. You just have not seen it yet.
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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 01:23:38 (GMT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: SUSAN...
Message:
i do not believe there is a cookie cutter that makes premies, ex-premies or anyone else. i believe that we are all as unique as snowflakes (some more flaky than others).

my perception of maharaji, my relationship with him and all the other perceptions i have are my own, not like anyone else's.

i have been greatly blessed in my life. the fact that i have a teacher does not take away or add to who i am in my own right.
it's what i do with what i have, teacher or no teacher.

i believe that all good things come from the same place. no personal credit is due or necessary for what good comes through us. Lao-Tzu said that one who seeks enlightenment takes praise and blame in the same spirit. i want to be in that place. it's enough to be on the planet in a live human body and be part of it all. there are weak folks with a teacher and weak ones without.
likewise, there are brave folks with a teacher and brave folks without one. it is a brave thing to humble oneself and tuck in one's ego far enough to accept a teacher, too. one who does so takes alot of flak and must be brave to endure it and still be true to oneself. when i say teacher here, i mean a human being. let's face it, everything and everyone is a teacher to the one who wants to see god everywhere. i want to be in that place. i believe that is what knowledge is teaching me. if maharaji happened to be at the threshold as i was coming through and he gave me a push
that helped to propel me through into the realization of my own soul, i am eternally grateful. to say i could have done it myself would be possibly true, but arrogant as i see it. and it may have taken alot longer and been alot more painful doing it myself. i think everybody has free will to choose their own path and to not be subject to the scrutiny and judgement of their fellow beings.

we all have facets like a diamond. some of the facets are flawed and some are flawless. while you see a charlatan in maharaji, i see a man who endured the death of his father at a very young age, took on the most formidable mission i can imagine on this planet at this time...to bring peace. regardless of the intrigues and the apparent contradictions of his life and times, for me the plusses far outweigh the minuses of this man we all once looked to for guidance and enlightenment, for the Knowledge of God. i believe he delivered the goods. and whether it was just like mel brooks in spaceballs with the shwartz ring (see it if you haven't) or whether there is an invisible web of energy and love that maharaji controls and spins around his premies at his will, i don't see that as mattering. he facilitated the enlightenment, the receiving of knowledge, to many people and has remained faithful to his mission.

if he has expensive toys, bank accounts, lots of stuff, that does not bother me. personally, i don't relate to that lifestyle and have no desire to imitate it in my life. if it happens it happens. it's not my goal. i don't see him as a materialist. i see him as someone who can enjoy it all and not be attached to it. that's what pisses off so many people who secretly in their heart envy what he has and look for dirt about how he got it.

forgive me for going on a bit long. it's hard to even try to explain the unexplainable. and that's what i feel like i'm trying to do.

there's alot going on inbetween the lines, so please look there too while the pundits take apart my snytax and post their critiques of literal details that have no relevance to what i am trying to convey to you.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 20:54:53 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Doggone it, Susan
Message:
Susan, I've been hankerin' for a t-bone for days and now you go and mention it..... he he he!

You know, I really would like to know where it says that Israel was the 'keeper of the holy name,' in those EXACT words! He keeps pulling these 'concepts' out of thin air and it IS so tiring. Oh well, I guess that's a story for another day. :-)

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Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 04:29:53 (GMT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: If I may interject...
Message:
'Ha-Shem' is the term Jews use to refer to God.
Ha-Shem is Hebrew for 'The Name'.
Over thousands of years, you gotta piece it together.
They said and say today that His Name is ineffable and cannot be pronounced with human lips and therefore refer to the Almighty as 'Ha-Shem'. But for the most part, they lost the meaning of the words as all religions do over time. That's the Dance.
I am not claiming any present dibs on The Name for any group now.
It's party time and everyone's invited.
The good, the bad and the ugly, from the highways and byways.

If Dylan said 'the answer is blowing in the wind' around you,
you would have probably said something like
'I don't hear anything, what the hell are you talking about?'

Hi Mike! Please do not mistake my straight talk for malice or bad feeling towards you. We have had some connecting exchanges and I honor them. I respect your existence and your right to believe whatever is it you believe. Wanna play?

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Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 14:45:12 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: So what's with
Message:
YHWH? This is referred to as his name (minus the vowels). Jews don't believe his name is unspeakable with human lips..... His name is YHWH, according to their scripture. SHP, you are 'mixing' various belief systems garnered from various sources; not a single coherent model. You can do this if you like, but it should be kept intensely personal. In other words, I wouldn't spout it like it were 'fact.' Otherwise, you are likely (very likely) to garner more than your fair share of skepticism and argument from those who DO practice a single coherent religious model (IMHO).

Just a note: Did you notice how you added the words, 'around you' to what Dylan actually said? Not only is the quote out of context, you've changed its meaning entirely by adding those words. He never said, 'around you' after 'blowin' in the wind.' Although I know that you were just using an example, it is a telling thing when you 'add' words, even in an example. Think about it.

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 01:28:46 (GMT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: So what's with
Message:
look again.
i said that if he had said it around YOU, not as part of the lyrics.

as for the unspeakable name of god, we could go around and around like water in a toilet flushing if we get into a dogmatic or religious debate. i am not doing those anymore. useless.

i have my sources and you have yours. i'm not here to make you see anything my way, so let's relax and enjoy the weekend.

cheers!

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Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 19:31:55 (GMT)
From: cqg
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: interject??? more like PROject
Message:
You say: 'If Dylan said 'the answer is blowing in the wind' around you, you would have probably said something like 'I don't hear anything, what the hell are you talking about?'

Projecting your own responses and claiming they represent another person's is not only offensive, it is dishonest.

And it says a lot more about you than you might wish.

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 01:31:52 (GMT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: cqg
Subject: interject??? more like PROject
Message:
sez u.

i call it transitive thinking.
see, i don't have to quote books all the time. i think my own
thoughts too. revolutionary, i know. bothersome too.

i believe in cognitive liberty and freedom.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 14:51:35 (GMT)
From: Protein eater
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Protein, vegetarianism
Message:
If you are going to be a vegetarian, it's important
to get enough protein, say from tofu. The diet you
mention seems protein deficient.

Regarding m's story of the way a critter takes in
liquids, it just doesn't make any sense. There is
no evidence of that being true. Primates eat meat,
so did early man. Why do I say the primates eat meat?
Because I saw a documentary that showed some monkeys
eating meat. This is also hard evidence that early
man ate meat.

I have nothing against vegetarianism, I prefer
tofu over meat myself. I think, I could be wrong,
that vegetarian protein is easier to digest. With
veggie protein, you don't have to worry about the
hormones and antibiotics (and sometimes other
animals!) they feed to cows, chickens, etc.
Vegetarian protein is also better for the environment
because it requires less land per amount of protein.
But I eat fish and poultrey, and mammal meat if it's
put in front of me. I was at a dinner with m where
poultry was served.

Maybe you could ask m about that story and see what he
says now. My guess is that he won't answer the question.

I've never heard m give a truly rational discourse on
the subject, in terms of what the pros and cons are,
and what to be aware of if you are vegetarian. He
doesn't have training in nutrition, I would rather
listen to a professional nutritionist when it comes
to diet.

I was in m's ashram, and I didn't get enough food,
especially protein. I'm not saying that m doesn't
know anything and that I haven't learned anything
from him. But he is far from perfect, he doesn't know
everything, and you don't have to believe everything
he says. He is contradicted himself many times,
so how can you? It's impossible.

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Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 04:40:28 (GMT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Protein eater
Subject: Protein, vegetarianism
Message:
Half a dozen almonds is enough protein for a day for a human.
A handful of hemp seeds, too. They are 25% protein.
Soy is great as tofu, milk, ice bean, and all the other neat stuff coming out. Been eating tofu 30 years misself.

I think that to concentrate too much on anything - like diet - throws off the balance, and you can't eat your way to heaven.

I believe that what goes in does not determine the heart of a person or what comes out of that heart. I'd rather hang with peaceful loving meat eaters than violent hateful vegetarians any day. In a perfect world, there would probably be peaceful loving vegetarians...until the breatharians come along and accuse us veggies of murdering zucchinis without remorse. Prana straight from the sun, that's the ticket!

And the beat goes on.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 10:13:55 (GMT)
From: Shark
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: eat this
Message:
You should be concerned with what is going in the place where it should be coming out. His Ownself doesn't love you Boy!
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Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 04:47:04 (GMT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Shark
Subject: eat this
Message:
Dear Mr. Shark,

I am requesting the plain English version of your post and your sources for who loves me and who doesn't.
Ye know not of what ye speak, oh you of many teeth.

You have obviously mistaken me for a chum of yours.
(Inside joke for fishermen)

Shp

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Date: Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 08:00:24 (GMT)
From: Maharaji
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: eat this
Message:
My dearest Shp,

Thank you for remembering my teaching about how all in the animal kingdom who lick their water eat meat and those that drink their water are vegetarian. (ignore that rabbit...)
It's really great that noone mentions jagdeophile to you any more.....so you don't have to confront the possibility that I might be 'bad'.....but my premies are used to that and understand my lila.

Thank you for being my devotee......I've no need of toilet paper since you came on the scene.

Maharaji

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Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 05:12:17 (GMT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Maharaji-not
Subject: eat this
Message:
Whoever you are,

I don't think that you are Maharaji and I think that you are a coward to not come out as who you are, and a poor joker at that. I think that you don't have a clue and I therefore cannot be upset with you. Save your strength for a neubie.
Been here, done this.

I do not understand what happened with Jagdeo and Maharaji. But I do know what good has transpired in my life from having Knowledge.

If you have someone in your life who has helped you alot, then something happens and all the circumstances make that person appear 'bad', do you abandon that person and judge that person harshly and obsess day and night over those circumstances?
I don't.

I have asked myself many times what I would have done if one of my kids had been bothered by Jagdeo and if I found out. I know that I would not have sat by and done nothing, nor would I have trusted without question that everything's cool and to surrender to it. I probably would have gone to the top, whatever it took, to get some answers and some explanations and justice and closure for my kid. I might have stayed or left based on the feedback and who I could reach. But that's me. From what I have gathered, this did not happen at the time from any families involved. No blame, that's just the facts as I know them to be.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

Now we are here years later and you demand of me to lead the charge for justice or something. I am here and confident that all secrets will be revealed in time (or out of time).
Why don't you confront the immediate families of the vicitms and get in their faces first? Then work your way out to me if you don't get satisfied.

If the Jagdeo file did not ever exist or happen, what is #2 on your bitch list?

Shp

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Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 19:41:24 (GMT)
From: cqg
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: EAT YOUR OWN WORDS
Message:

cqg responded:
Sandy, you really have opened your mouth without putting your brain in gear. (I won't say 'again')

This is what you have just written:

'I have asked myself many times what I would have done if one of my kids had been bothered by Jagdeo ...'

Your ultimate conclusion is that you

'might have stayed' (with the cult).

......................... ........................ .................

Hope your kids can handle this.

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 01:38:14 (GMT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: cqg
Subject: what if
Message:
you had kids and their uncle or aunt diddled them? your brother or sister? would you kill them? want to see them SUFFER?
disown them? or would you do what you could to help them and explain to your kids that making someone SUFFER is not always the way to a solution.

everything is not black or white in this world. somewhere, sometime, somehow the loop and cycle of pain has to be broken for something better to happen and not repeat the same thing over and over again.

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 13:18:50 (GMT)
From: cqg
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: 'if...' the longest word
Message:

You might think JagDeo to be your brother, but that's for you to deal with. And I believe child molestation is still a crime, so unless you're opposed to the whole concept of Karma, some suffering is bound to result.

The perpetrator of the crime (and his accomplices) might like to sweep the whole thing under the carpet, but 'dealing with' the consequences of his actions is paramount here.

Until and unless JagDeo AND Maharaji own up and face the music, this topic will NOT go away, Sandy.

As you say 'somehow the loop and cycle of pain has to be broken for something better to happen and not repeat the same thing over and over again.'

Who is going to take the initiative?

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Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 20:14:41 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Add to that
Message:
shp: YOu said, '...I know that I would not have sat by and done nothing, nor would I have trusted without question that everything's cool and to surrender to it.... From what I have gathered, this did not happen at the time from any families involved.'

SHP!!!!!!! Whether you intended it or not, your statement is pretty judgemental, don't you think? Before responding, read it again (in or out of context). The fact that action may or may not have taken place (and the particular family members state that they DID attempt to 'go to the top') isn't of any concern to you. The fact that the OFFENSE happened at all and that NOTHING was done by the 'top,' SHOULD be of ultimate interest to you! You are obsfucating and using someone else's pain to do it! Personally, I don't think that was your real intent, but it sure does read that way.

Additionally, there is no possible way for you to 'know' how you would respond to this if it were your own children. As a parent, you should know that your response could be anything.... including violence against the perpetrator. Parents in the midst of that kind of grief are potentially very dangerous people. Why do you think they 'dress' perpetrators in bulletproof vests when moving them from jail to court and back again? The fact that a parent reacted in the way they did to the jagdeo incident is a testiment to their self-control, in my very humble opinion. They were 'there,' ONLY THEY know how they would react because they've been there! You, unless you've been thru the same thing, do not! You are guessing....

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 03:04:01 (GMT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: and that
Message:
Mike:

I have copied your post and am doing my best to sincerely respond to all of your remarks:

shp: YOu said, '...I know that I would not have sat by and done nothing, nor would I have trusted without question that everything's cool and to surrender to it.... From what I have gathered, this did not happen at the time from any families involved.'

SHP!!!!!!! Whether you intended it or not, your statement is pretty judgemental, don't you think? Before responding, read it again (in or out of context). The fact that action may or may not have taken place (and the particular family members state that they DID attempt to 'go to the top') isn't of any concern to you. The fact that the OFFENSE happened at all and that NOTHING was done by the 'top,' SHOULD be of ultimate interest to you! You are obsfucating and using someone else's pain to do it!

No, I don't think it was pretty judgemental of me. It was from what I have gathered here. Susan contacted Judy and Randy. I know nothing of anyone else in her family doing or saying a word.
I remember reading that Abi's dad went to Charananand and ripped into him, but nothing more. I would not have stopped there.

(Yousaid:) Personally, I don't think that was your real intent, but it sure does read that way.

The beauty (and the ugliness) is in the eye of the beholder.

Additionally, there is no possible way for you to 'know' how you would respond to this if it were your own children. As a parent, you should know that your response could be anything.... including violence against the perpetrator. Parents in the midst of that kind of grief are potentially very dangerous people. Why do you think they 'dress' perpetrators in bulletproof vests when moving them from jail to court and back again?

Mike, I know myself well enough to know that I would not have tried to kill anybody accused of something, even if I really felt they were guilty. If I had caught someone in the act, now that is another story. If I lost it in such a scenario, it would be considered a crime of passion, love and protect for my kid, case dismissed. Depends on the lawyer you have, you know the drill.

The fact that a parent reacted in the way they did to the jagdeo incident is a testiment to their self-control, in my very humble opinion.

Mike, I don't know if it was weakness, strength, fear, self-control, thought control or whatever that held them back.

They were 'there,' ONLY THEY know how they would react because they've been there! You, unless you've been thru the same thing, do not! You are guessing....

Umpires know a strike from a ball even if they can't play the game very well. But I have to conditionally agree with you on theory versus reality, with reality being the bottom line as long as we are in 3D. I'd rather talk reality. What I said I would do in the above situations is my educated guess, knowing myself.

I do not think that Maharaji endorses or condones child abuse.
I do not think that he doesn't care that it happened.
I do not think that he did not make an effort to do something.
I do think that he probably reprimanded Jagdeo and maybe even got him therapy, but that is just my guess.
I do think that the reprimand and the possible therapy did not work.
I do think that it was strange for Jagdeo to be running loose once it was out that he abused kids, and that Susan and Abi got no reply from Maharaji about it.
I am dumbfounded that more premies who knew about this at the time it occurred did not raise a hue and cry from all parts of the world where this had happened.
I think it's also strange that despite Susan's and Abi stories,
that EV denies any knolwedge of the incidents.
I don't think that there was any malice on Maharaji's part.
I don't understand it all, and I don't claim to.
We are just reacting differently to the same situation and you are condemning me for my reaction.
It has also been implied by someone that I'm a lousy father for the way I feel. I don't agree.

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 05:07:45 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Shp, what?
Message:
SHP: Think about these two statements that you made: 'I do not think that he doesn't care that it happened.
I do not think that he did not make an effort to do something.' You were referring to M here.

SHP, what makes you think this? What 'evidence' do you have? On the other side there is plenty of evidence.... NO ACTION and Jagdeo is still running around a free man. Why, in the face of these two FACTS, would you think that M cares or that he's done something about it! I just don't get it..... You condemn the family for your perception of 'lack of action,' yet you defend M for the same lack of action.... I just don't get it!

You supposedly emailed M about this stuff, so what was his answer? Or did he just blow you off? Maybe you're not important enough to answer, even though your questions were certainly important and dealt with a potential life threatening situation (child molestors have been known to do far worse things than just 'molest').

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 12:57:09 (GMT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Shp, what?
Message:
i think that the family cared even though they did not manifest action that i am aware of, or that I think would have been appropriate. i do not condemn them, as you so colorfully put it. i do not have all the information.

i think maharaji cared too, even though he did not manifest action that i am aware of, or that I think would have been appropriate. i don't condemn him either. i do not have all the information.

what about if your beloved brother or sister turned out to be sick and messed with your kids? or worse yet, one of the grandparents? it happens every day somewhere on the planet. what would you do to them? how would you deal with that?

that the offense was committed is very sad and hurtful to the victims, their families, and anyone who has feelings. that was the doing of one man, Jagdeo, driven by his sickness.

that the offense was called to the attention of certain authority figures was a positive step towards the solution to the problem of Jagdeo's abusiveness.

that the offense was repeated in various places around the world over a period of years as the story goes, the offender had complete freedom of travel, and that he had a high and holy commission as a mahatma which automatically commanded respect and trust, and he was active, and that the victims were not given the kind of attention from the top you and i think would have been appropriate once it came to light....these are the matters i am not resolved about as yet.

so what about if your brother, sister or parents messed with your kids? every other way, they are great, but they have this problem and you love them they are family. tell me, mike, please. go deep and be sincere or don't answer at all. there has been more than enough vaudeville, namecalling and anger from all of us, me included. talk to me.

even an ordinary farmer does not let a fox into his own chicken coop especially on a repeat basis. something doesn't add up. information about this matter is either incomplete, biased, inaccurate, or a combination of these.

i have been caught up in enough miscommunications in the business world and with family and friends to know that no matter how much effort i make to be concise, accurate and truthful, the 'telephone game syndrome' kicks in as it goes from person to person and the messages get messed up, causing problems, ill feelings and mistrust. in light of this, i wonder if maharaji really knew the extent of the problem or the whole story, even though judy related to susan that he was aware...aware of what? how much of the information did he have?

major communications links had to be down if susan told judy and randy (which i believe she did). what they did with the information is in question. judy, being a midwife, one would think and assume that she would be a crusader for children.
randy, being an instructor, one would also think that he would defend children against a malfunctioning mahatma and go straight to maharaji about it like the good and noble knight he portrayed himself to be. maharaji, being a revealer of knowledge, one would think that he'd be the good father (montrose 71 i think..the satsang about a good father not letting his kids crawl into a fire) and never allow one of his mahatmas to do what Jagdeo did more than once, get busted and taken out of circulation.

instead of hassling over the information we don't have, let's talk about the information we do have and break it down to the nuts and bolts and see why this engine is still knocking. and we can make a checklist of what parts are missing. i'm not running away from this, mike. if you want to go on, fine, if not, fine.

i don't get certain parts of this any more than you do.

have a good weekend.

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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 00:48:55 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: possibly remembered
Subject: M Isn't A Vegetarian Anymore
Message:
Maharaji has slipped into the habit of eating of the carcasses of dead animals these days. Like being 'god', being a vegetarian was apparently just a phase he was going through and he has decided at least not to say he is god anymore, nor that he is vegetarian. He also smokes, drinks, and partakes of carnal lust, with a number of partners.

One thing that hasn't change, however, and in line with your interest in TV commercials, you might be interested in knowing that Maharaji remains one of the most conspicuous of consumers in the entire world. Contrary to the goals of many vegetarians to tread lightly on mother eatrh, he consumes many times the amount of resources of this earth than even the average SUV-driving American, and that is pretty bad.

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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 15:39:16 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: M Isn't A Vegetarian Anymore
Message:
JW: I seemed to have missed the point of 'possibly remembers' post, altogether. Was this a put-down of M or a commercial for vegens?

It must be the meats in my system clogging my brain or something..... he he he :-)

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Date: Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 22:43:50 (GMT)
From: Coach
Email: None
To: possibly very strange
Subject: security for bob mishler
Message:
We have movement in the treeline.

'i used to think mahare ji controlled half of india now i think he's just a normal suedo vegetarian'

Do you mean 'suede' or 'pseudo?'

Coach

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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 20:47:11 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Coach
Subject: Suede, definitely suede (nt)
Message:
BWAH HA HA HA HA.... good one Coach! Hey, you shouldn't be reading this..... NT :-)
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Date: Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 22:16:53 (GMT)
From: corvus_corax
Email: None
To: possibly remembered
Subject: security for bob mishler
Message:
Dear possibly,

It is appreciated that you, probably, wrote from the heart in your post. I also had some DLM 'security' experience, though your memories are only vaguely similar to my own.

However, the thing that prompted me to reply to your post was that; if you propose to use the medium of television etc. to promote vegetarianism, you might consider the investment of a dictionary to help you achieve this end. Commercial is spelt with a double 'M' [as in you know who] from the root word commerce. While spelling is generally not important, in the use of a forum such as this. It is important when dealing with people, who will be depending on your credibility.

A nod's as good as a wink to a blind man,
Jamie
-----------------------

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Date: Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 15:37:42 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Just Another Televangelist
Message:
Hey there folks! Reading all the posts about the telly-vision and saddle-light transmissions made me realize that Rotwat has become just another televangelist, following in the fine tradition of Jim & Tammy Faye Bakker, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, etc. He's emulating a time honored and extremely lucrative scheme -- all he needs is a little credit running along the bottom of the video screen saying: SEND PRAYER DONATIONS TO [TELEPHONE NUMBER].

Think about this though: Elan Vital's fund raising flyer that was sent out over the New Year (in the US) asked premies to simply donate money and never really said what was going to happen to the donations. If Greenpeace shows up at your door, they usually say something like, 'We need money to buy food for the folks on the Rainbow Warrior, who are out trying to stop the whale hunts in the Antarctic.' They ask for something specific. EV just gives you a black hole to send it to & you hope for the best. The message is, 'Trust us.' Where is all that money going? Why are premies supporting M's kids in a lavish lifestyle? Why are premies paying for them to drive luxury cars?

Maharaji the Televangelist! I wonder if he'll list that as his occupation on his IRS 1040 this year.

Marianne, the anti televangelist

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Date: Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 21:49:23 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek™
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Marianne
Subject: Just another about face!
Message:
I was either present at the program or heard it in a '90s video where Maharaji said:
  • He could, but refused to broadcast his message on TV
  • The Internet with all the slash slash dot dot stuff was a waste of time
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Date: Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 17:42:31 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: My Little Truck
Message:
Hi, Marianne. How's tricks in S.F.?

I'd never thought about Goom Raji as a televangelist before, mostly because his shtick is too bland and boring to rank up there with the master ranters, but he is going to that format, isn't he. I can imagine it -- transposing current reality with the good ol' days -- the television on the altar, ashram premies aglow with the special secret shared expectations of supreme bliss magically transmitted through the electrons dancing in the vacuum tube...

So much like reverting to the magical thinking of childhood, wasn't it? When my daughter found out the truth about Santa Claus a few months ago, she became nostalgic for the days when she believed in Santa. It is very comforting to believe in a Santa Ji, isn't it? Or...wasn't it. Life's rewards and love's pleasure and work's dynamic, though, is a helluva lot more fun, in the long run.

My truck only gets AM radio, so I often listen to the most entertaining stuff on there: radio evangelists. I especially enjoy 'the Prophecy Club,' where they talk about the U.N., FEMA, black helicopters, secular humanists and devil worshippers, the coming apocalypse, etc.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 08:16:51 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: My Little Tonka
Message:
>When my daughter found out the truth about Santa Claus a few months ago, she became nostalgic for the days when she believed in Santa.

Yes. Truth is the Super Bowl and Friends and of course law.
That is life for you.

Your daughter may long for the nice vibe of Santa but you can be nostalgic about the year 2050 and what it will bring.
Or investigate history and learn of the history of numbers and astronomy and wonder how advanced we really are.
We weren't able to shoot a small thing onto a neighboring planet yet with much luck. And we still have the nearest star in the sky to visit. And our lifetime is running out.

CD

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Date: Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 18:29:40 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Gregg
Subject: Hi Gregg!
Message:
Hello there Gregg! Are you having real winter there now? How was your new year? I am glad to see you here.

I actually in Cork, Ireland, for 4 months, teaching a law school class. I'm havin' the time of my life, dearie! I've got 215 students, so I am busy, but it still leaves time for exploring ancient Ireland, making friends, pub time (where I usually post from), etc. The London exes have scheduled a Latvian Club night in February, which Jean-Michel and I will both attend. Anth is arranging for the satellite broadcast, and all the exes can send me, $50 in Irish pounds, so they can tune in. DID YOU ALL HEAR THAT? SEND MONEY FOR THE PUB, OOOOPPPSSS SATELLITE!

We're going to have a world domination planning session. You, or anyone else with ideas on how to carry the plan off, should email me!

Take care Gregg,
Love, Marianne

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Date: Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 17:33:25 (GMT)
From: corvuscorax
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Just Another Brick in The Wall
Message:
From the looks of things at Manavdharam, young Shadhey is learning the biz. I suppose it is a caste thing, this godbiz. Looks just like Pop at that age. Better than the carpet biz.

I wonder if he'll embrace the new tech. or stay with the tried and true?

Not that i really wonder
Jamie
------------------

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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 08:22:41 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: corvuscorax
Subject: Just Another Brick in The Wall
Message:
I saw that site the other day..seems bbj is doing the whole holy family trip agaian. His poor kids.
I emailed the site some months ago questioning the 'history'. Guess what..........no answer
It seems that some traits are consistant in rowatt clan.

Regards Jethro

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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 20:52:25 (GMT)
From: corvuscorax
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Just Another Brick in The Wall
Message:
Jethro,

Yup, i did consider using their feedback button myself, for a lark. Then thought, 'nah, what's the point'. Though it might be fun to copy a bunch of threads from this site and mail em through but i really couldn't be bothered. They do seem to be, slow as molasses in January with putting up their pages; it's tiresome reading that 'work's in progress'. I suppose that bbj is a hindu fundamentalist, what with his bnp seat in parliament? From time to time, i do feel a bit tacky watching the monkey do it's tricks.

Did love that purple shirt, though!
Jamie
---------------------

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Date: Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 15:52:21 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Just Another Televangelist
Message:
Think about this though: Elan Vital's fund raising flyer that was sent out over the New Year (in the US) asked premies to simply donate money and never really said what was going to happen to the donations.

The same fund raising flyer was sent out here in the UK as well. Just send a cheque dated 1/1/2000. At least they used to ask for money for the cost of programs, the plane, amaroo, etc.

Now it's just send money.

Premies, isn't that right?

John.

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Date: Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 15:47:17 (GMT)
From: Ms. K
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Just Another Televangelist
Message:
Hi Marianne -
I thought exactly the same thing after reading all those posts. When we lived in Ohio, we used to watch Ernest Angeley, who is about the most entertaining televangelist out there (he's the one that Robin Williams does a take-off on - and he even LOOKS a bit like Robin Williams.) He does lots of satellite uplinks from Africa.

The biggest difference between M and the televangelists that I see is that M makes people pay to watch the broadcasts. The televangelists I know of broadcast up front - for free - and THEN ask for donations. This seems to work better in terms of raising money. Also, M doesn't seem to have the charistmatic speaking ability of most televangelists. (I do not like televangelists, but they do seem to be charismatic - otherwise they don't stay on the air.)

Hope you're enjoying your stay in Ireland (don't forget to take pictures.)

Love,
Ms. K.

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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 01:35:39 (GMT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Ms. K
Subject: Ernest A-ot
Message:
Ms. K,
We enjoyed Ernest Angsley when I was growing up. He had that BAD toupee and what a Southern Accent--hoo, boy! We watched him every week and howled at the television.

We especially liked it when Ernest would 'heal' people. He would put his hands on either side of their ears and shout: (while whacking them upside the head or pushing them over)

'Thy deaf spirits come OUT! Come OUT!' We never sent the guy any money, even though we enjoyed the comedy in his show very much.

I can do a mean imitation of him that you will have to hear some time.

Take Care,
VP

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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 02:28:05 (GMT)
From: Ms. K
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Ernest A-ot
Message:
Hi VP. So good to see you here.
Ernest Angeley is actually pretty entertaining. I have only watched him a couple of times, but he's almost like a caricature of an evangelist. I saw him preaching in Africa, and he was healing people in the crowd FROM THE STAGE - saying stuff like 'there's someone out there with a swelling on the left side of their throat - well, now you are HEALED!' (only he says it more like 'HEAYALLED'!) There were people in Cleveland who definitely took him pretty seriously though (I think he preaches out of Akron now.)

Take care -
Ms. K

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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 02:46:11 (GMT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Ms. K
Subject: Ernest A-ot
Message:
I can't imagine that anyone could take that guy seriously. I thought people in Cleveland were more sophistocated than that(stop laughing, Brian:) His toupee alone is reason enough to doubt him. Nothing against toupees, but that one is cause for pause.

He also says OUT like OW-WATT. You know those Southerners-snicker. They can give any word multiple syllables:

shit= she-it
no= no-wah
help= hell-up
dog= dah-wag
nice= nizzzzze

What is that word Maharaji is constantly butchering? See, I've forgotten now. A good sign :)

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Date: Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 17:03:32 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Ms. K
Subject: Just Another Televangelist
Message:
Mrs K: You said, '...The biggest difference between M and the televangelists that I see is that M makes people pay to watch the broadcasts. The televangelists I know of broadcast up front - for free - and THEN ask for donations. '

Yes, yes and yes.... For M to provide the satellite feed for free and then 'count on' donations would take a leap-of-faith! Something that I think M is totally missing! EV is rich enough to do this in spades, but nope...... pay first or no-see-um! :-)

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Date: Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 15:55:44 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Ms. K
Subject: Hi Ms. K!
Message:
Ms. K: I see you have a new moniker. You can email me if you want. I am glad to see you back, and have missed you.

I think the points you make about the other evangelists is a good one. M gets his bucks up front! No one would pay after watching his videos, as Jack seems to have suggested below.

Ireland is utterly fantastic! I'm quite excited about my trip to the UK to see the infamous Latvian Club. It seems as though Anth will take our photo and scan it into the site. I'll be wearing the Abbie Hoffman mask!

My best to you and yours,
Marianne

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Date: Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 16:46:28 (GMT)
From: Ms. K
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Hi Marianne!
Message:
Hi Marianne -
Both of us are very envious of your impending visit to the Latvian Club - we would LOVE to be there. The European exes rule, don't they? You'll be meeting some wonderful people - guess we will have to settle for being there 'in spirit' :).

I'm interested in the reactions of people who actually WATCHED the pre-recorded satellite broadcast. I can almost see the point of watching a live broadcast, but otherwise it seems like paying big bucks to watch a video. I didn't really 'get' the video thing either - for me, much of the appeal of being a premie was the interaction with other premies.

Re the televangelist thing - I'm from Virginia - home of BOTH Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell (EEK!), and what I think they did was build a very strong regional base, starting with their home cities (Virginia Beach and Lynchburg, respectively). Then they started broadcasting on TV and radio to a larger, but still regional, area - I remember when Pat Robertson was on TV in DC for three hours a day, every day. Thus they got enough money to go national. M did something like this in the early days (without TV), but now seems to be working backwards - he appears to be trying to reach a very small and geographically scattered group, and requiring members to contribute money up front. Makes you wonder if he even WANTS new followers - which calls his supposed purpose into question.

Glad you're enjoying Ireland -
Take care!

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Date: Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 20:00:23 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Ms. K
Subject: Hi Marianne!
Message:
Hi,
I watched the pre-recorded broadcast and it was the last straw. And not just for me, someone said to me 'I've never felt so negative before'. One thing, this wasn't the first pre-recorded broadcast. The video started with m saying, with an expressionless face 'This is about you' (long pause) 'This is about me' (long pause) 'This is about life' (long pause) all while making strange gestures with his hands. He didn't seem very lively to me. In the video he said something like ... with each life, if you can make a little progress, that's good enough ... I don't think that was the exact wording but that was the meaning. I think in this same video he said 'it all ends' when you die. I read a post somewhere of some 'Satsang' he 'gave' in the old days where he went on and on about reincarnation, basically not just saying it happens but giving details. Years later he said 'something continues'. A few months ago he said 'Is there reincarnation, in my opinion ... NO'. Later (no in the same video) he said 'What happens when you die? I don't know. At least I'm being honest (for a change)'. Another time someone asked him what will happen when he (m) dies. He said 'nothing' then said 'It'll go on , I don't see how!' (I guess he meant the teaching of the Knowledge techniques, it sounded like another put-down). But I digress. There was some footage of him walking around (I think in slow motion), at one point with one of his sons I think, the other person was partially obscured. There seemed to be some implied meaning there. There was some footage of some ocean waves, I think in slow motion, pretty colors. Back to 'it all ends (when you die)', he said that after saying something about how people talk about how bad things are going to happen with the millenium ... and then said but when you die 'it all ends'. I read a post of him talking in the old days about how at the end of the year 2000 (the real turn of the millenium) there will be calamity and the only people left will be people who have this Knowledge. I don't know if it was in the video, but he said recently something about how knowledge enables you to experience God 'as much as is humanly possible'. Hmmm, sounds like he's backing off on some claims there. I'm having a hard time remembering what else he said, I was distracted by the Don Quixote sculture and the painting of the seagull and waves and the piano (wondering how much they cost). There was some music that he wrote, performed, etc. etc. It was ok, I think he's getting better at that hobby, but I've heard much better premie music. I wouldn't say it deeply moved me, I would much rather listen to Chopin. I wonder how good a musician he thinks he is. Oh, and recently he admitted that his watch collection is 'a bad habit'. So is he going stop it, sell it and put the money to good use? And what does that say about his other collections (expensive suits, houses, cars, etc.)? Another thing, recently it was announced that $450,000 was raised for the Amaroo place to put in running water. The idea is that people will stay in tents, not him and his loved ones of course. However, there won't be a program there in 2000 because things aren't ready yet. People have already stayed there in tents when it first started (for about $350 or so), so I don't get that. For $350 you got to stay there, sleeping in a tent in the middle of a mowed ex-cow pasture, possibly with poisonous snakes around (we were warned about snakes) and not having to commute and maybe you got to see him more. Now I wonder, will commuting to a hotel be an option in the future? How much we they want for tent rental? On the Jay Leno show, Jay recently showed this ad for a vacation package, one thing that was provided was a tent! He and the audience thought it was a rediculous scam. Now some premies might think I'm just a 'spaced out' premie, but you know, I like the techniques and I cherish love and peace and life (not this love or this peace or this life (or that place), no just love and peace and live). And I don't see what seeing a Don Quixote sculpture or listening to new age music has to do with it. Isn't it simple, isn't it about me feeling my life? And what about the poor premies who can't afford to go to Australia or see pay-per-view broadcasts? Yes, many cannot afford that. And what about people who don't like new age music? Regarding the techniques, I have some thoughts regarding how they were changed after many years, like .. how did Shri Hans teach Maharaji the techniques, the lack of quality control, the rationalle m gave for why they weren't taught properly in the first place ('would you have done it?') but I won't go on and on now about it.
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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 00:04:01 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Great post G....
Message:
Something so real about your post. I found it touching.

The former G'mom, but obviously not your mom :)

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Date: Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 23:02:17 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Hi Marianne!
Message:
G: Thanks for the great post. Although you may not have quoted it exactly, '...with each life, if you can make a little progress, that's good enough...' speaks VOLUMES!

First he says this, then he says no such thing as reincarnation, then he says maybe, then he says he doesn't know..... boy he is confused, isn't he? 'With each life....' What does this mean Mahaha?

But, what I find most telling is the fact that, once again, K has been 'dumbed-down.' He has now lowered the bar to the 'ground.' You aren't going to be liberated, you aren't going to see god, you aren't going to know 'that perfect place inside,' you aren't going to know peace, you ARE going to go just a little further on the path (and that should be good enough, you bunch of ingrates!)..... This, of course, will keep some premies 'hooked,' because they want to go at least a 'little ways,' right?

I think premies should realize that what M is saying, with this little quote, is that HE can't do anything for you. Remember all of the talk about 'grace?' He used to talk about it all the time. I guess M's grace just can't cut the mustard...... boy, we REALLY must be lost when god can't even save us! :-)

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Date: Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 22:43:11 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek™
Email: drek@oz.net
To: G
Subject: ***Best*** and the Seagull
Message:
***Best***

Nobody rambles more than me, but Mr. or Mrs. G, you really need to throw a few paragraph breaks in there. Hell, do it randomly the way I do it. None of this stuff really needs to be that good. No one really reads it.

Seriously, though, thanks for all details on the video. Your mentioning of the Don Quixote sculture and the painting of the seagull and waves was good.

Does anyone remember the 'Jonathon Livingstone Seagull' book during the '70s? Wasn't it required Premie reading even suggested by Maharaji? And here we see the theme again. What a rebel thinker is Maharaji!

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Date: Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 21:29:57 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: G
Subject: **** GREAT POST !!!!!!!! ****
Message:
G,

Worth a new thread so that it gets the attention it deserves.

Thank you,

John.

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Date: Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 21:26:49 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: G
Subject: To G
Message:
Thanks, G, for your review of the 'unique event.' Very interesting. Do go 'on and on' later with more of your story.
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Date: Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 21:22:55 (GMT)
From: Ms. K
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Wow - thanks, G
Message:
Thanks for taking the time to post your review, and your feelings about the satellite presentation. Much appreciated.

I have some thoughts about the techniques too, which I'll post at a later time. My feeling, based on some posts from a few years ago by a person who received the techniques from one of Shri Hans' mahatmas (he got NINE techniques instead of four - three extra 'breath' techniques, and one extra 'nectar' technique, as I recall). I will try and find these posts. I think the techniques as first presented in the US and Europe were simplified for 'Westerners'. And, from what people say, it sounds like M simplified them even more during the nineties. But I'd be interested in what you have to say about them. You mentioned briefly how M justified changing the techniques - would like to hear more if you have time.

Thanks again.

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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 01:37:25 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Ms. K
Subject: Wow - Thanks, G
Message:
Your welcome.

You may show your gratitude by sending me your money.

Nine techniques eh? This should be interesting.

By the way, in a Knowledge review, someone asked m
how the techniques work, he replied 'I don't know'.
Yes, he said that.

Regarding m's justification for changing the techniques,
- basically 'would you have done them this way before?' -
that's about all he said about it, no explanation.
A lot of people were very confused about it. Someone
said 'It's good he's not charging for this because
there's nothing to it'. Of course, he does charge, but
in a sneaky way. It seems like he didn't want to go into
details because there was stuff to hide.

For the most part, I personally liked the changes,
having felt there were things wrong with the way
they were shown before (e.g. pressing on your eyeballs
produces a physical 'phosphene reaction'). I had started
doing them closer to the new way already, and personally
I like simplicity. How many people are still doing them
the old way because m makes it extremely difficult to
get a Knowledge review? Are some techniques 'correct'
and others worthless and useless? Were we just wasting
our time doing them the old way? And I seriously wonder
if it true that the new way is the 'correct' and more
importantly the 'only' way - for anyone. Maybe some other
technique (or no technique) would be more appropriate for
some people. After all, he said 'would you have done them
this way before?. BTW, yes, m, I would have.

I've started to find some interesting pages, unrelated
to those here, on the Internet regarding meditation
techniques, some sound like the Knowledge techiques.
Yes, I think there should be a thread on the techniques.

Here's the definition of phosphene:

phos·phene n.
A sensation of light caused by excitation of the
retina by mechanical or electrical means rather
than by light, as when the eyeballs are pressed
through closed lids.

[French phosphène: Greek phs, light; see
phos- + Greek phainein, to cause to appear,
to show; see bh-1 in Indo-European Roots.]

Surely, the Light of God is a bit more sublime
than that. But I can see why someone would think
that might be the Light, and why m changed the
technique.

Regarding 'preparation for Knowledge', I see value in
preparing someone properly, in terms of developing some
understanding (like don't meditate thinking that it will
magically bring you all the material goodies you desire).
But I think m is distorting the whole thing. It seems like
to him, 'ready for Knowledge' means the person feels
grateful to him (i.e. will give him money), will travel
to the other end of the earth, just to be rejected, but
still grovel, talk the right way ('this love', 'that place',
'this life'), and so on. And if he's doing such a great
job, then why are a lot, yes, a lot of people that he
personally showed the techniques to not practicing?
I mean, he's supposed to be able to sense when a person
is 'ready', right? There's so much that logically doesn't
add up. Oh, I forgot, logic is evil, I'm just supposed
to feel and have trust.

Another thing I question is the notion that if a person
learns the techniques without m's 'grace', it will ruin
their lives. He said that plenty of times in the old days,
and it is still implied today without any explanation.
But he doesn't know how they work.

I know someone who died without learning the techniques,
and they really wanted to learn, but they were told to
wait, after their hopes were up (too young -
gotta wait years now - you're not ready) with no
reasonable explanation (or compassion) given, just
that teenagers are crazy (yea, m, you ought to know).
What about m being taught as a little boy? What about
individual differences between people? I think the real
reason was to avoid potential lawsuits from parents.
And now he's waffling about this issue.

Not learning the techniques had a very negative effect
on this person's life. I now wish I had taught him/her
myself. Actually, I was asked 'does it have to do with the
breath?' and I answered
'There's something behind the breath'
I'm glad I at least had the decency and guts to say that.

To be continued.

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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 20:00:54 (GMT)
From: CQG
Email: None
To: G
Subject: **BEST OF!** **BEST OF!**[nt]
Message:

CQG responded:
Very best of!
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Date: Thurs, Jan 27, 2000 at 20:09:13 (GMT)
From: cqg
Email: None
To: all
Subject: just for this ...
Message:
... just for this:

'I think m is distorting the whole thing. It seems like
to him, 'ready for Knowledge' means the person feels
grateful to him (i.e. will give him money), will travel
to the other end of the earth, just to be rejected, but
still grovel, talk the right way ('this love', 'that place',
'this life'), and so on.'

...if nothing else.

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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 09:24:06 (GMT)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Wow - Thanks, G
Message:
I now wish I had taught him/her myself. Actually, I was asked 'does it have to do with the breath?' and I answered 'There's something behind the breath' I'm glad I at least had the decency and guts to say that.

G you're posts are very good to read. I can relate to all the things you have said. It's good to read that someone else felt the same things as me. You expressed yourself well.

I often myself wondered why there was such a tight control on the revealing of the techniques. I often felt like telling people I loved or who clearly would have benefited at the time. The mahatmas and instructors who did give Knowledge indeed gave it kind of haphazardly, despite what premies might say about Grace and being able to judge who was prepared etc. A lot of them were really weird individuals actually.

Of course the fundamental reason I didn't show people was out of, what I thought was respect for M, but there was a hell of a lot of fear in there too, which was clearly implanted by M for the express reason of strengthening his control on knowledge distribution in my opinion.

It bothered me a lot that I could not recommend to my loved ones, a process that I had found to involve humiliation, and a lot of insensitive behaviour from premies towards aspirants.
I too stopped pressing my eyeballs like I was originally told, when I experienced that I could concentrate on light better without doing that. (ages before M caught up and changed things).

M's concern seemed to be less about people doing the techniques in any particular way, and more about everybody just unquestioningly doing what he said-his Agya = his command. Remember? It was said in satsang that M could tell you to stand on your head for an hour and you would have the same experience of grace. Very confusing.

(NB.Drek-I also insert random paragraph breaks to break things up a bit!)

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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 19:13:26 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Stand on your head
Message:
I was told that you could stand on your head and
gargle with peanut butter, and if you had faith
(in m) you would have an experience. Come to
think of it, I used to stand on my head when I
did yoga.
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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 20:06:54 (GMT)
From: CQG
Email: None
To: G
Subject: and the experience would be...
Message:
and the experience would be...

...inadvisable to repeat!

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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 18:30:37 (GMT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Wow - Thanks, Anon
Message:
Anon,

You said,

I often myself wondered why there was such a tight control on the revealing of the techniques. I often felt like telling people I loved or who clearly would have benefited at the time. The mahatmas and instructors who did give Knowledge indeed gave it kind of haphazardly, despite what premies might say about Grace and being able to judge who was prepared etc. A lot of them were really weird individuals actually.

It bothered me a lot that I could not recommend to my loved ones, a process that I had found to involve humiliation, and a lot of insensitive behaviour from premies towards aspirants.

Thanks for being honest (again) about this. Being a 'person loved' by premies, but on the outside, it helps to hear this side of things.

VP

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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 22:42:40 (GMT)
From: Ms. K
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Wow - VP
Message:
Hi Veep -
I really thought of you when I read G's post about the aspirant who couldn't receive knowledge because he/she was too young.
Love,
Ms. K
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Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 05:54:43 (GMT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Ms. K
Subject: wrong info helped keep me away
Message:
Me, too!:)
What a bummer.
But then again, I was so afraid of M's photos I wouldn't have made a very good devotee. I also remember being shocked because my mother told me I would have to kiss Maharaji's feet in order to be initiated. She said, 'Do you know what they did? They had to kiss his feet.' She honestly thought this was part of the initiation process. (I guess she thought he came to every knowledge session. Must have thought is was a small cult, huh?)

Knowledge lost a LOT of appeal to me after hearing that-yuck! But then as an adult, struggling through life, it was easier to forget those details and try to seek out knowledge again.

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Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 16:25:06 (GMT)
From: Ms. K
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: moms can be pretty smart
Message:
Hi Veep -
I'm laughing - seems like she picked the one thing about following M that a kid would just hate AND not be able to rationalize like the rest of us did!
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Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 20:38:47 (GMT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Ms. K
Subject: pre-teens think they are smart
Message:
I guess she figured it would shock me (a cocky, percocious, know-it-all about to hit puberty-snicker!) I remember where I was standing when she told me--where I was facing, what I was looking at. THAT is how much it freaked me out to hear it. That is one of those drip drip moments. Who coined that drip drip thing anyway? It's pretty useful.
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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 02:54:58 (GMT)
From: Ms. K
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Thanks again, G
Message:
The check's in the mail (snicker).

Seriously, another great post.

You wrote:
Are some techniques 'correct' and others worthless and useless? Were we just wasting our time doing them the old way? And I seriously wonder if it true that the new way is the 'correct' and more importantly the 'only' way - for anyone. Maybe some other technique (or no technique) would be more appropriate for some people.

I agree completely. I had a lot of problems trying to meditate using the four techniques as taught by M (of course, I was using the 'old' techniques. But I've seen the new ones, and I don't think that I'd have much better luck with them). But I stuck with them because the techniques were taught as the 'only way' to spiritual realization or whatever. I've had much better results with more active meditation techniques - visualization, especially. I tend to have a very active mind, so having something visual to focus on really helps me quiet it. I was actually scared of this kind of meditation - remember when M said 'if you meditate on a candle, you'll become a candle?' There are a lot of ex-premies who really enjoy and benefit from the 4-technique meditation - I just happened to be one who did not.

I also agree with you on the light technique. I saw light once -in the knowledge session - and this wasn't accompanied by excessive eye-pressing. But it was very different - and more real - than the phosphene reactions I saw later (the golden donut, etc.)

Also agree with what you said about the Knowledge preparation process. It's SO long now, and people get so disappointed after the big build-up. And yes, it does seem like M is trying to get people to focus on HIM ('gratitude') rather than the meditation. Because the techniques are so shrouded in mystery, not to mention having all kinds of other baggage attached to them - things like 'they're not just the physical techniques - you have to have M's grace too, etc. etc.), I think people tend to expect way more than they actually get out of the knowledge session. I know I did, and I received K in 1972 after only waiting a few weeks. I can't imagine what it would be like to wait months or years.

The story you told about the young person who died before receiving the techniques was very sad. I do think the age at which one could receive K was raised (it used to be 13) because of potential problems with minor children - not because of 'teenagers being crazy'. And I can imagine how much someone of that age would hope to get some kind of spiritual understanding. I got K when I was 16, and I know that is certainly what I hoped for.

Take care, G - avaiting your next installment :).
Ms. K

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Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 13:44:52 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Ms. K
Subject: Minimum age requirement
Message:
It just occurred to me that Rawat might have done a cost/benefit analysis on minors 'receiving Knowledge'.
benefit - no monetary benefit, minors have little no money to give, so why bother?
cost - potential lawsuits from parents
cost - they might blab (teach the techniques)
cost - their parents might want to investigate what is going on
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Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 16:19:23 (GMT)
From: Ms. K
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Minimum age requirement
Message:

Ms. K responded:
Ouch! You may be right. Although I suspect that the main reason was potential lawsuits from parents, and perhaps a few real lawsuits. When I lived in Colorado, some Mormons in Denver got into legal trouble for baptizing minor children without parental consent.

I wonder how the former age 13 requirement got established - perhaps that was how it was done in India? I did know of a couple of children who had received K at younger ages - but only with permission from M himself - and they were children of premie parents.

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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 01:54:36 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: G
Subject: G, Read This.
Message:
G,

Please start a new thread with this stuff because what you are giving is pure gold.

Thank you,

John Brauns

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Date: Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 03:50:44 (GMT)
From: Jack
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Mr. Natural & The Kid
Message:
Can someone post Robert Crumb's brilliant comic strip circa 1973?

I need a good laugh since I was one of the motley crew who paid $45 + $10 expenses to see a very low budget broadcast recently.

Is it possible to watch these satellite broadcasts from my own arm-chair yet or in the near future? What will the cost be then? How much will Maharaji rake off me then?

Feeling ripped off but still enjoying practising knowledge.

Jack

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Date: Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 06:11:04 (GMT)
From: nimble and quick
Email: None
To: Jack
Subject: Jack
Message:
What was the video like?
And did he just stand there behind the piano?
What was the message?
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Date: Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 04:41:46 (GMT)
From: Ms. K
Email: None
To: Jack
Subject: Mr. Natural & The Kid
Message:
It's on the site, and here's the link. Enjoy!
Mr. Natural Meets the Kid
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Date: Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 05:01:48 (GMT)
From: rabid dog
Email: None
To: Ms. K
Subject: Mr. Natural & The Kid
Message:
Thanks Ms. K
My husband loves The Kid and I had wondered where it was.
Miss computing here never thought to do a search.

-- 'not so rabid more like a puppy compared to some of these guys selene' :)

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Date: Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 05:14:16 (GMT)
From: Ms. K
Email: None
To: rabid dog
Subject: Mr. Natural & The Kid (ot)
Message:
Well, it's on the site map! Sheesh (snicker)! Wonder if anyone ever looks at that :).

I love that comic, and I still think that only R. Crumb could do justice in portraying Heidi.

Thanks to RT for sending in a copy of his worn torn Zap Comic, BTW.

P.S. If you're a rabid dog, what does that make me? A cat with fleas?

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Date: Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 05:19:37 (GMT)
From: pees like a puppy
Email: None
To: Ms. K
Subject: Mr. Natural & The Kid (ot)
Message:

why you are Miss Kitty mamn (mam? sp?)
and no not fleas - your fault is you are a cat who is too affectionate and too respectful of the other pets and let them make a martyr outa you.

doncha hate bein called mam by the way? I've had em tell me it's a term of respect (that damned word again!) and I always say oh yeah then how come I never got called it til I turned 40?

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Date: Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 05:27:14 (GMT)
From: Ms. K
Email: None
To: pees like a puppy
Subject: Mr. Natural & The Kid (ot)
Message:
Don't mind being called ma'am AT ALL - after years of being called 'miss' because I looked young (not good young - just young). Ma'am is short for 'madam', BTW :).

What's that 'pees like a puppy' reference again? I might need it.

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Date: Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 05:31:49 (GMT)
From: selene
Email: None
To: Ms. K
Subject: Mr. Natural & The Kid (ot)
Message:
well the way I heard that saying someone mentioned the other day is
'if you still pee like a puppy then don't try to run with the big dogs'

not that I think ... no I am not going there.
maybe on AG.

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Date: Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 05:34:48 (GMT)
From: Ms. K
Email: None
To: selene
Subject: Mr. Natural & The Kid (ot)
Message:
Thanks! And if you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch. (What's wrong with the porch, anyway?)

See ya - going back on the porch!

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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 02:19:40 (GMT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Ms. K
Subject: Southern dog sayings-ot
Message:
Ladies, ladies, ladies!

The real saying goes: 'If you can't run with the big dogs stay off the porch!'

Though your version makes more sense, Katie. You know Southern sayings never make much sense, however.

Here are two more Southern dog sayings for you, free of charge:

'I'm not quite myself today--kinda like a blind dog in a meat shop.'
or
'Lie down with dogs, get fleas.'

I know you like cats better and so do I. How's the view from the porch?
VP

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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 03:02:59 (GMT)
From: Ms. K
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Southern dog sayings-ot
Message:
VP, honey, EVERYONE says 'lie down with dawgs, get fleas' (it's true too - figuratively and literally.)

How come you're supposed to get OFF the porch to stay away from the big dogs? I thought it was supposed to be safe up here :).

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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 03:19:26 (GMT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Ms. K
Subject: Southern dog sayings-ot
Message:
Ms. K,
Like I said, I don't know why, but these things don't make any sense. I will ask my good friend Buford T. Pusser for you. He will probably know all about it.

Later: Buford says that the porch is where the big dawgs sleep, play and hang out. BUT the little dawgs quiver in fear UNDER the porch. Remember that joke by Jeff Foxworthy: You might be a redneck if the porch falls off your house and you kill three coon dogs.

Off to drink some wine and stare at my latest painting--hung it in the hallway today. Mighty fine, if I do say so myself.

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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 03:26:04 (GMT)
From: selene
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Southern dog sayings-ot
Message:
Hi VP
waa I want wine! no way, got yet another cold. I've had so many this year it's just one continuous cold.
I guess all those southern sayings get a lot more crude as they make there way out to the wild west
Not sure what that say abuot me.
haha.
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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 18:11:31 (GMT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: selene
Subject: Old saying -ot
Message:
Selene, take care of that cold! Isn't liquor good for that, though?

Hey, I learned the meaning of an old southern saying today. Ever heard this one:

'It's cold enough to freeze the balls off of a brass monkey!'

I always thought it meant---well, you can probably guess...but it isn't dirty. Just my mind is-snicker.

On ships in the old days, cannon balls were stacked up next to the cannons in a pyramid. The stand at the bottom of the balls that held the bottom ones in place (they would roll away if you put other ones on top of them) was called a 'monkey' and it was made out of brass. When the ship went through some a patch of cold weather, the brass would contract and the balls would roll off of the monkey--ha ha!

I have no such explaination for 'It's colder than a witches tit in a brass bra' I think we can take that one at face value.

Thank you, talk radio

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Date: Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 18:28:02 (GMT)
From: selene
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Old saying -ot
Message:
witches are thought to be cold to the touch.
we know better huh? :)
Liquor may not really be good for a cold but expensive cognac sure makes it feel better. If only I lived in proximity to the house on the hill I'm sure the friendly neighbors there would lent me a cup or two.

Speaking of cold my work friends are starting to make out loud comments as they have to pass the 'lone gunmen' in the outer room to get to my office and I don't blame them. Talk about classic nerds!

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Date: Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 04:35:16 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Jack
Subject: Mr. Natural & The Kid
Message:
Dear Jack,
Sorry about your seeing the 'light' but I am also really happy for you. Now you can enjoy K and live your own life. If you have money you want to part with there are lots of good charities who need it. M has more then his share!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 04:14:12 (GMT)
From: selene
Email: None
To: Jack
Subject: Mr. Natural & The Kid
Message:
key weren't you the one who forever gave me my favorite rabid dog nickname?
I think The Kid was put somewhere here permanentely on ex-premie.org. I had it bookmarked but that was 3 computers ago.
It may have been migrated over to the Casa de Drek.
But I am sure it's hangin around somewhere.
greetings.
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Date: Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 05:07:47 (GMT)
From: comic man
Email: None
To: selene
Subject: Mr. Natural & The Kid
Message:
By the way, back before the milenium festival in 1973, the comic strip 'Dondi' ran a little piece about the millenium festival, with Dondi telling a friend not to go to Houston, because a false prophet would be speaking there...

If someone is good at researching these things, it would be in the week or two before the millenium festival, and might prove worthy of 'Best of'...

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Date: Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 17:15:41 (GMT)
From: corvuscorax
Email: None
To: comic man
Subject: Nah!! Must 'a mean't,
Message:
Bhole a Bhole a penny a pitch!

The carny
Jamie
--------------

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Date: Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 05:24:36 (GMT)
From: selene
Email: None
To: comic man
Subject: Mr. Natural & The Kid
Message:
That IS weird that someone wrote that right before the biggest event in the course of humanity.
yup someone outta research that.
.
hey, someone outta do an expose of mararji. I've heard that a few times somewhere.
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Date: Tues, Jan 25, 2000 at 19:50:05 (GMT)
From: CQG
Email: None
To: selene
Subject: That's nuthin' - the third eye
Message:

CQG responded:
That's nuthin' - the 'third eye' technique is actually the mark of the Beast!
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