Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 17:49:20 (GMT)
From: Jan 25, 2000 To: Feb 04, 2000 Page: 3 Of: 5


TiM -:- Rawat's Curse -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 18:50:22 (GMT)

recentx -:- Child abuse - a denial? -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 17:49:28 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- Child abuse - a denial? -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 19:05:35 (GMT)
__ __ Powerman -:- Child abuse - a denial? -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 19:29:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ Powerman -:- Child abuse - a denial? -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 19:32:21 (GMT)
__ __ Lily -:- Child abuse - a denial? -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 19:21:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ Susan -:- Child abuse - a denial? -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 19:28:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ JHB -:- You're getting it! -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 19:28:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Lily -:- OK -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 20:13:53 (GMT)
__ Lily -:- Child abuse - a denial?NO -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 18:31:16 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave Python -:- Child abuse - a denial? -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 18:20:05 (GMT)
__ Mike -:- Holy sh_t -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 18:07:19 (GMT)
__ __ Observer 9 -:- Wait Mike- M is not ADVOCAING -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 19:54:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mike -:- Lack of action... -:- Sun, Jan 30, 2000 at 17:09:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Susan -:- The smallest investigation -:- Sun, Jan 30, 2000 at 18:04:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ o9 -:- polygraph phiddle -:- Mon, Jan 31, 2000 at 00:23:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- polygraph phiddle -:- Mon, Jan 31, 2000 at 15:57:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- polygraph phiddle -:- Mon, Jan 31, 2000 at 00:40:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ 09 -:- polygraph phiddle -:- Mon, Jan 31, 2000 at 04:29:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ Susan -:- I have a lot of the same -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 21:56:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Observer 9 -:- I have a lot of the same -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 22:37:46 (GMT)
__ __ Lily -:- Holy sh_t -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 18:57:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mike -:- Holy sh_t -:- Sun, Jan 30, 2000 at 17:20:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ Susan -:- Read this Lily... -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 19:10:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Susan -:- here are the links -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 19:15:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Lily -:- I agree with Katie Darling -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 20:00:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Mr D -:- Oh katie darling, Katie! -:- Sun, Jan 30, 2000 at 05:50:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ms. K -:- Thought you were talking to me -:- Sun, Jan 30, 2000 at 17:23:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- It can be you too, darling -:- Mon, Jan 31, 2000 at 12:34:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ New here -:- Jagdeo -:- Mon, Jan 31, 2000 at 21:28:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Jagdeo -:- Tues, Feb 01, 2000 at 01:28:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Lily -:- Thankyou, I will read them nt -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 19:23:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ To Lili -:- good people do nothing -:- Mon, Jan 31, 2000 at 12:21:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ cqg -:- 'For the triumph of evil... -:- Mon, Jan 31, 2000 at 20:01:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ JHB -:- Holy sh_t -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 19:09:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Lily -:- Not knowing, is not ignoring -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 19:33:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Sir David -:- Child abuse in Maharaji's org -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 19:51:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- Read Abi's post too then.... -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 19:44:05 (GMT)

Jean-Michel -:- Great readings for week-end -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 13:57:20 (GMT)
__ michael -:- good stuff! (nt) -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 18:16:22 (GMT)
__ Loaf -:- Jeffrey Masson -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 16:14:03 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Jeffrey Masson -:- Tues, Feb 01, 2000 at 00:44:10 (GMT)
__ __ Sean -:- Jeffrey Masson -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 16:59:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ cqg -:- Perhaps a swimming-pool sized -:- Mon, Jan 31, 2000 at 19:20:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sean -:- Perhaps a swimming-pool sized -:- Tues, Feb 01, 2000 at 00:24:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mike -:- Fear of germs -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 17:47:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sean -:- Fear of germs--Woof! (nt) -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 18:39:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ G -:- Fear of germs -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 22:52:42 (GMT)

Angry -:- Fundraiser for Fatso -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 09:44:03 (GMT)
__ G -:- Fundraiser for miniraji -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 15:50:58 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- One of His favorite tricks -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 10:48:02 (GMT)
__ __ Jack -:- One of His favorite tricks -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 17:36:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- a bastard is still a bastard -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 23:29:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sean -:- Darshan -:- Sun, Jan 30, 2000 at 07:05:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- My aura's still OK -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 22:02:47 (GMT)

Roger eDrek™ -:- Looking for backers for biz! -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 05:19:18 (GMT)
__ AT -:- The Ticket - Pygmy Charities! -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 06:23:52 (GMT)
__ __ Roger eDrek™ -:- Wait a minute -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 07:45:54 (GMT)
__ __ AT -:- BTW - What constitutes a -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 07:03:05 (GMT)
__ Runamok -:- Will it cover your therapy? nt -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 05:47:07 (GMT)
__ __ Jim Heller -:- Oh that is just SO uncaring! -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 06:34:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ Runamok -:- Jimmy poo -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 06:52:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Runamok -:- ok I learned it from you -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 06:57:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Runamok NT -:- and spamming from Drek -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 06:58:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek™ -:- Run, I don't have your address -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 07:12:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Sir Runamok -:- haven't you read McLuhan (nt) -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 06:59:38 (GMT)
__ __ Roger eDrek™ -:- That's where you come in -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 05:59:23 (GMT)
__ Sean -:- Looking for backers for biz! -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 05:28:33 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- Looking for backers for biz! -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 21:30:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ Ana T -:- Looking for backers for biz! -:- Sun, Jan 30, 2000 at 01:23:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sean -:- Looking for backers for biz! -:- Sun, Jan 30, 2000 at 00:08:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- Looking for backers for biz! -:- Sun, Jan 30, 2000 at 00:22:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Sean -:- Looking for backers for biz! -:- Sun, Jan 30, 2000 at 00:36:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Looking for backers for biz! -:- Sun, Jan 30, 2000 at 03:12:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sean -:- Looking for backers for biz! -:- Sun, Jan 30, 2000 at 05:27:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Looking for backers for biz! -:- Sun, Jan 30, 2000 at 05:51:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ Master Aaron Spelling -:- That's where H. gets the $ -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 22:32:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ selene -:- That's where H. gets the $ -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 22:56:40 (GMT)

What's Going On? -:- John Brauns Defects? -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 04:14:57 (GMT)
__ JHB (John Brauns) -:- John Brauns Defects? -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 13:19:26 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Mischief past... -:- Sun, Jan 30, 2000 at 22:39:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ JHB -:- Mischief past... -:- Mon, Jan 31, 2000 at 00:19:31 (GMT)
__ __ Roger eDrek™ -:- Roger eDrek™ Defects? -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 18:14:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ JHB -:- Roger eDrek™ Defects? -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 18:31:36 (GMT)
__ __ JHB -:- Hey - I got my own link!!!! -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 14:06:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ Brian -:- Hey - I got my own link!!!! -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 14:51:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cqg -:- and our own handshake? -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 15:00:04 (GMT)
__ Jack -:- John Brauns Defects? -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 06:06:29 (GMT)
__ R Greenhouse effectDrek™ -:- I like plants. What's problem -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 04:29:01 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Joseph Banks -:- And you could be ........... -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 08:02:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ Roger eDrek™ -:- I'm a sucker for abuse -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 08:37:31 (GMT)
__ __ say what? -:- I like plants. What's problem -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 05:28:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- Another enjoyinglife entry -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 16:28:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ G -:- Waking up the monkey in me -:- Mon, Jan 31, 2000 at 01:59:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- judging from the guys pic -:- Mon, Jan 31, 2000 at 16:59:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- * Isle of Wight premies* -:- Sun, Jan 30, 2000 at 22:00:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Mike -:- Horrified -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 17:57:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ G -:- Horrified -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 22:35:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- I agree -:- Sun, Jan 30, 2000 at 17:26:41 (GMT)

Richard -:- DEportation #3 -:- Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 21:26:58 (GMT)
__ Jack -:- Same Gurus -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 17:50:59 (GMT)
__ Sir David -:- DEportation #3 -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 02:12:45 (GMT)
__ __ interested -:- Re: Turin -:- Tues, Feb 01, 2000 at 17:41:22 (GMT)
__ __ Jack -:- DEportation #3 -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 18:09:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- m grandgurus -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 23:09:35 (GMT)

Mike -:- I FOUND IT! (slightly OT) -:- Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 18:39:07 (GMT)
__ Jack -:- Ghee -:- Sun, Jan 30, 2000 at 20:38:52 (GMT)
__ __ Mike -:- Making ghee -:- Mon, Jan 31, 2000 at 16:20:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- Making ghee -:- Mon, Jan 31, 2000 at 17:15:12 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- Ghee -:- Sun, Jan 30, 2000 at 23:51:44 (GMT)
__ BJ -:- I FOUND IT! (slightly OT) -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 16:22:30 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- don't read this -:- Sun, Jan 30, 2000 at 22:31:36 (GMT)
__ VP -:- Hey, this is fun! -:- Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 21:33:41 (GMT)
__ selene -:- I FOUND IT! (slightly OT) -:- Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 18:56:26 (GMT)
__ __ Mike -:- Now that you mention it -:- Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 19:21:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- Now that you mention it -:- Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 19:34:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Susan -:- laughed like crazy at this(nt) -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 16:45:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- laughed like crazy at this(nt) -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 21:43:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Agasp -:- benefits from premeidumb -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 00:08:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ ij -:- benefits from premeidumb -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 12:27:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- benefits from premeidumb -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 13:29:34 (GMT)

Jean-Michel -:- Let's sing together! -:- Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 17:48:48 (GMT)
__ Mike -:- Don't eat before reading (nt) -:- Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 18:09:31 (GMT)
__ __ Roger eDrek™ -:- Don't eat the pudding? NT -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 04:30:05 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Sorry I forgot the WARNING nt -:- Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 18:12:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ Cqg -:- Sorry I forgot the WARNING ... -:- Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 21:09:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ me -:- you forgot the WARNING ... -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 00:42:26 (GMT)

Roger eDrek™ -:- Diversion - Maharaji Only -:- Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 04:56:01 (GMT)
__ Mili -:- Diversion - Maharaji Only -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 08:05:42 (GMT)
__ Jim Heller -:- Correction re Donner -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 05:44:32 (GMT)
__ Joey -:- diversion AWAY from m -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 05:03:01 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Another Diversion -:- Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 10:32:47 (GMT)
__ __ An ex-ashramer -:- Another Diversion -:- Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 13:23:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ Runamok -:- Another Diversion -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 03:52:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Roger eDrek™ -:- Not wanting to argue, but... -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 04:55:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Sean -:- Not wanting to argue, but... -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 17:16:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek™ -:- Sean! We need you! -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 22:35:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sean -:- Sean! We need you! -:- Sun, Jan 30, 2000 at 00:26:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek™ -:- Sean! We need you! -:- Sun, Jan 30, 2000 at 02:18:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sean -:- Sean! We need you! -:- Sun, Jan 30, 2000 at 06:03:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cqg -:- Sean! Do we need you! -:- Mon, Jan 31, 2000 at 18:42:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Sean! Do we need you! -:- Mon, Jan 31, 2000 at 23:21:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cqg -:- How few of who? (nt) -:- Tues, Feb 01, 2000 at 19:54:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Hansa Bansa -:- Not wanting to argue, but... -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 07:48:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek™ -:- My Joanie, persona non grata? -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 09:01:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- advantages of brown nosing -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 05:36:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek™ -:- advantages of brown nosing -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 07:08:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- science vs conjecture -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 16:46:08 (GMT)

Adnana -:- Keep on truckin' -:- Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 03:31:28 (GMT)
__ Brian -:- Truck-stop Gurus -:- Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 03:53:40 (GMT)
__ __ Adnana -:- Truck-stop Gurus -:- Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 04:09:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mike -:- Truck-stop Gurus -:- Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 14:53:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Who needs who? -:- Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 17:52:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Lily -:- Who needs who? -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 18:10:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Give us a break... -:- Sun, Jan 30, 2000 at 21:37:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ cqg -:- Give us a break... -:- Mon, Jan 31, 2000 at 18:55:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Shot down in flames? -:- Mon, Jan 31, 2000 at 22:23:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Adnana -:- You got it! ;-) Loveya (nt) -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 18:20:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- Who needs who? -:- Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 18:04:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Lily -:- Who needs who? -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 18:24:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- You are wrong, Lily -:- Sun, Jan 30, 2000 at 18:00:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Tell us about yourself, please -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 18:39:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Lily -:- Tell us about yourself, please -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 19:17:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Bad reasoning, Lilly -:- Sun, Jan 30, 2000 at 00:09:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Tell us about yourself, please -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 19:53:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Adnana -:- Oops! I take that back! -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 18:31:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Who needs who? -:- Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 19:11:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- BWAH HA HA HA HA -:- Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 19:25:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Adnana -:- Great laugh! -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 01:14:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ Brian -:- Truck-stop Gurus -:- Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 04:20:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Adnana -:- Truck garden Gurus -:- Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 04:51:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Brian -:- Truck garden Gurus -:- Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 05:55:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Adnana -:- Truck garden Gurus -:- Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 06:34:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Brian -:- Truck garden Gurus -:- Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 07:45:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ VP -:- Backhoe Gurus -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 01:44:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Adnana -:- Backhoe Gurus -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 02:38:49 (GMT)
__ Hot Tuna -:- Keep on truckin' -:- Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 03:45:56 (GMT)
__ __ Jack -:- Keep on truckin' -:- Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 05:42:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ VP -:- Are you the same Jack? -:- Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 05:44:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jack -:- Are you the same Jack? -:- Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 05:48:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ HT -:- Are you the same Jack? -:- Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 12:35:04 (GMT)


Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 18:50:22 (GMT)
From: TiM
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Rawat's Curse
Message:
@#%&!!!!%$#!!!!.
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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 17:49:28 (GMT)
From: recentx
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Child abuse - a denial?
Message:
Recently in a video, I believe it was the 'Unique Event' one,
m talked about child abuse. Something about how in some families,
the parents will abuse the child so that they will be ready for the world. Then he said 'that doesn't happen with Knowledge'.
He seemed tense.

I found this very strange, I wondered why he was saying this. Later I read about Jagdeo's alleged child molestations and allegations that m knew about it and did not notify the authorities.

Now I wonder if that was a vague denial, him speaking in code to those who have heard about Jagdeo while not tipping off others.

I don't know for a fact that Jagdeo molested young girls, but I know for a fact that people, young and old, were abused by Divine Light Mission (renamed to Elan Vital) which was headed by Guru Maharaj Ji (now Maharaji). I know because I was. I was in one of his ashrams. I wore worn out underwear while his children wore silk clothes. I packed a small lousy lunch while he had private chefs. I slept on a cheap thin foam mattress on the floor in the basement while he lived in a luxurious mansion. And I was working hard making pretty good money and handing over my entire paycheck! He didn't even have a real job!

As bad as my situation was, others faired worse. For example, people being overworked at Decca. Recently, m was talking about participation (aka 'service' or 'seva'). He said that there won't be any working around the clock. Another futile attempt to deny his wrongdoings. He knew full well what was going on, he was pushing the whole thing. It also might be another false promise.

I heard rumors years ago about Mahatmas (Jagdeo was a Mahatma) having sex. I didn't know what to make of the rumors. I suspected they were true, but because I was brainwashed not to have doubts, I ignored my suspicions. I remember that the tone of voice suggested that there was an abuse of position, like a teacher abusing a student.

It seems like m's conscience is bugging him like a mosquito and he's not listening.

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 19:05:35 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: recentx
Subject: Child abuse - a denial?
Message:
That makes me ill. As one who has had personal experience with Jagdeo indeed being a molester, and I got off much easier than most of his victims, I am sickened that Rawat alluded to it and stupidly said that 'Knowledge' was some sort of inoculation against this sort of behavior. A man who gave people 'Knowledge' was molesting children and using his position and the guise of Knowledge reviews in which to do it.

Sir Dave's site has all the references to my posts and Abi's posts about this. I will not repeat it. But Rawat did know, in the seventies, what Jagdeo was. And his loyal devotees are the biggest bunch of hypocrites I have ever met, 'forgetting' the whole thing to protect their master from looking bad. The truth is not what matters to these people. Until they began to lie about it, they had done nothing wrong. Once they decided to lie about it, they let themselves become people who are protecting a pedophile. Their goal is to protect Rawat. But by protecting Rawat they are protecting Jagdeo and hurting the victims who are speaking the truth about this. I hope that there is a judgement day for them.

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 19:29:04 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Child abuse - a denial?
Message:
I 'heard' Susan 'saying' two different things: 1.) That m was pointing out that parents prepare their children for a tough world by not mollycoddling them (and that 'knowledge' isn't like that), and 2.) That she questioned whether child abuse took place in DLM/EV.

I don't have enough facts to know for sure but I doubt that m incriminated himself in his speech, was speaking in code to get premies to collude with him, or used the phrase 'child abuse' to make his point. I find it unbelievable that he would be anything but silent about his negligence to act on the information he had about Jagdeo's abuses.

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 19:32:21 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: Child abuse - a denial?
Message:
Sorry, Susan. I meant, 'I heard Lily...'
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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 19:21:41 (GMT)
From: Lily
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Child abuse - a denial?
Message:
Susan, I am so sorry this happened to you! I feel the responsibility must lie with the one who did the abuse and with the ones who directly knew of this and did not help you get justice or protection. I understand that in America there is no statute of limitation for prosecuting child abuse. Have you pursued this course of action? Lily
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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 19:28:45 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Lily
Subject: Child abuse - a denial?
Message:
Lily,

Thank you for your kind words. I have since reported it to the police but it was so long ago and there is a statute of limitations. But I wanted to do it, even if it was too late. At the time it happened I would never have reported it to the police because it would have reflected badly on the Guru. I will always regret that because I may have been able to prevent other people from becoming victims. Please read the other links. There is no way that Rawat did not know about Jagdeo. They are denying that he knew now though. I think because they are afraid of legal action. I think they are a bunch of hypocrites and cowards, Rawat most of all, because if he said to the others, 'tell the truth' they would do as told, as they always do.

If you read all the posts regarding this carefully you will see the truth.

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 19:28:11 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Lily
Subject: You're getting it!
Message:
Lily,

You're beginning to get it. You said:-

I feel the responsibility must lie with the one who did the abuse and with the ones who directly knew of this and did not help you get justice or protection.

and the latter group includes Prempal Rawat, a.k.a. Maharaji.

John.

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 20:13:53 (GMT)
From: Lily
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: OK
Message:
OK
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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 18:31:16 (GMT)
From: Lily
Email: None
To: recentx
Subject: Child abuse - a denial?NO
Message:
The reference is to the Satellite event when he spoke about how some parents believe that they must give their children difficult experiences to teach them a lesson about the world they must enter in which difficulties always happen. Anyone had parents like these? The 'it's for your own good' lectures! He was saying, in my view that he does NOT believe it is necessary for a person or child to deliberately be given bad experiences to prepare them for when they might happen later! One does not NEED to suffer to reach happiness! Lily
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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 18:20:05 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave Python
Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk
To: recentx
Subject: Child abuse - a denial?
Message:
God; you got a mattress! That were luxury, sheer luxury. I just had a thin carpet over wooden floorboards and used have to get up before I went to bed and sing arti fifteen times in HINDI, mark you, and then drink a cup of poison and whip myself till I was dead and then work all day down a coal mine and get beaten up by my workmates for giving satsang till I was dead AGAIN and then I'd walk twelve miles back to the ashram for a sound thrashing from the ashram secretary for forgetting holy name for one second and then get a grain of rice for tea (if I were lucky) and a teaspoon full of charanamrit to drink and then meditate on a bed of nails until satsang time. Ay, but we were glad of it...

But to be more serious; if Maharaji did say that about parents abusing their children to prepare them for the world - Jesus, where is this guy at! Abusing children does not prepare them for the world. It only makes them less able to deal with it. He's got no idea, has he. The abuse that certain children got at the hands of Jagdeo and others, did not prepare them for anything except a life of confusion and turmoil.

Why anyone listens to his claptrap, beats me.

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 18:07:19 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: recentx
Subject: Holy sh_t
Message:
recentx: If your quote is correct, '...the parents will abuse the child so that they will be ready for the world...' you've got to admit that's a pretty sick attitude in and of itself. ABUSE YOU CHILDREN SO THAT THEY ARE READY FOR THE WORLD????? What the f_ck is THAT all about?????? I can't name a single parent that would think that way. Even those that have abused their kids don't think THAT way or we would have heard that excuse used in their defense in court. Current premies buy this crap???? I tell you true, if I had heard M say this, it would be the very last 'drip' (thanks AJW).

If this is what he was intimating that jagdeo was doing (in order to excuse it) then he's a willing accomplice in the whole affair; not just an innocent bystander who was 'blindsided' by one of his minions. NO matter how you look at this one..... it was a stupid thing to say, a stupid thing to initimate, just plain STUPID! :-(

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 19:54:33 (GMT)
From: Observer 9
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Wait Mike- M is not ADVOCAING
Message:
Mike

You outrage speaks well of you but
Back up a sec. If I read Lily right, she is saying that M seemed tense when he was talking about this.
I too wonder if he may have been givng code - to somehow explain the circumstances around the abuse by Jag.
As a vicitim of the type of parent he describes, Sometimes it is necessary for me to see their mindset in this light.
It does not explain away the abuse or the pain, but it is a temporary relief sometimes.

What concerns me is that your post seems to jump to the conclusion that M is advocating this mindset that 'abuse is good'

I think to jump to that conclusion would be a accidental averting form the actual issue. THAT M DID NOT SPEAK UP TO THE PREMEIS AND BY OMMISSION MADE MATTERS WORSE. He protected Jag. And still is protecting his own ass today. This comment in the satsang to me is evedence that this is burning a hole in him.

the only way for him to save face is to publically announce that any premies , exs or children of premeis that have been 'complaints, been abused or adversly effected, to contact some agency he sets up to handle the complaints. Just like the catholic church did and responsibility.
This way he would acknowledge his own part in the mess , however much he is/was a victim of this generation of parents himself. It

I amy be projecting here, but in those days (my experience) , such abuse paralyzed the people that know about it and they did not have the social safety to take the proper measures. The integrity of holding the person accountable had not yet penetrated the generation of these parents AND their children. It is almost like a hereditary denial.

I think his crime is now as an adult- the dysfunction he is perpetuating.
As a hormonal teenager little god, I think these matters were prpbably taken over by his adviors and he dealt with them at their advice- and whatever was decided was channelled threw his lordship so noone would question.
This is speculation . But it doest surprise me that a 16 yr old hindi-raised getting laid god would tell the old pervert to 'stop that now' and then get on with his hormones.

This was just the dawning of the Accountability Age which slowly came in through the children of the war generation..

What I would like to know is how M deals with perverts in his organisation now adays. There must be a higher percentage than back in the 70s.

Also outraged
Observer

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Date: Sun, Jan 30, 2000 at 17:09:02 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Observer 9
Subject: Lack of action...
Message:
O9: Lack of action in a case like this is as good as silent assent.

I do have one really good question, though: I had 'heard' that EV was investigating this allegation. What makes EV qualified to do a criminal investigation? If M really wanted to get to the bottom of it, he would involve the police or other QUALIFIED investigative group. I'm sorry, but I don't think that anyone in EV is qualified to handle this matter and it smacks of a cover-up! When doctors find evidence of child abuse they don't 'investigate it' themselves, they involve the ONLY agencies qualified to perform that function.

In my opinion, M's 'nervousness' while talking about it doesn't absolve him. He should have said, stright up, that there were allegations that 'someone' may have perpetrated these acts and that it was being investigated...... but no, he just says that it 'won't happen' with K. What the heck is this? If he wants to really get to the bottom of it, he will involve a law enforcement agency and cooperate fully in any ensuing court case.

There IS one other possibility: If M doesn't want this to go public (yet), he could hire a PROFESSIONAL and QUALIFIED polygrapher and put jagdeo on the box! NO amount of 'meditation' would keep jagdeo from the fight-or-flight syndrome. While it isn't 100 percent reliable, it sure can give an indication as to the guilt (or innocence) or the individual tested..... just a thought.

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Date: Sun, Jan 30, 2000 at 18:04:50 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: The smallest investigation
Message:
would lead them to believe it is true. I am sure they know it is true. First of all, I highly doubt that Abi, the people she knows and myself and the people I know, are the only victims. Jagdeo traveled all over the world and had tremendous access to kids. In fact, if there are any lurkers who know of a child who was considered special and chosen by Jagdeo for special treatment and private Knowledge reviews etc, then I would really like to be put in touch with that person. This seemed to be how he operated. Logic tells me EV knows of other people even we do not. Yet.

I am sure they got Abi's name and asked around and found out that Abi is indeed real. More likely they recall when Guru Charnanand relayed what Abi's dad told him, and many other premies. Just as Randy and Judy told Rawat and probably a few other people way back when. It really is a conspiracy of silence. Collusion I think is the word.

I do not think the EV people have any doubt at all that Jagdeo is what we say. They have known it for a long time. I just hope that they are protecting kids wherever he is. I have read that being elderly is in no way a prevention of continuing to abuse. It would be utterly tragic and reprehensible if this were still going on.

I guess I am saying is they will not do a polygraph because they know what the results will be. My guess is though, that he would fail it MISERABLY. Why, I have a very strong memory that the creep was trembling during my experience. I would think if he has that sort of personality that he shakes when he does something wrong then it would show up strongly on the polygraph.

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Date: Mon, Jan 31, 2000 at 00:23:36 (GMT)
From: o9
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: polygraph phiddle
Message:
If the polygraph monitors blood or nerve or electric impluses, it is possible for yogi types to beat.
Even criminals with super control can
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Date: Mon, Jan 31, 2000 at 15:57:30 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: o9
Subject: polygraph phiddle
Message:
o9: You said, '...Even criminals with super control can' beat a polygraph. Other than the made-up stuff on TV, tell what your evidence for this statement is, please. I've rarely seen it even give a 'weak' reading. Criminals avoid polygraph tests like the plague! I speak from experience here.... I was in law enforcement for 14 years. Polygraph offers are turned down left and right because the criminal KNOWS it works! While it isn't infallible, it would give an indication, based upon percentages. The trained polygrapher can say something like this, 'I'm 85 percent sure that he is lying...' etc, etc. The point is, Jagdeo would very likely fail with a 99 percent category. EVERYONE knows that child abuse is illegal, even foreign visitors to this country (not ot mention other countries). Sorry, but YOU saying that it won't work (as a defense for not using this tool) is pretty silly, don't you think?

USE IT and see what it says.....

Additionally, I don't believe a child molestor would be much of a 'yogi,' anyway. If there were 'bells and sirens' on a polygraph, the polygrapher would go deaf from testing him.

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Date: Mon, Jan 31, 2000 at 00:40:51 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: o9
Subject: polygraph phiddle
Message:
I don't think Jagdeo was much of a Yogi ever. I have communicated with a few ex honcho types who spent time with him. They said even back then they felt he was using his postion as a mahatma in a lot of ways. Lots of demands for creature comforts and money and worldly goods. It is pure speculation on my part but I think he got in trouble in the 'world' and was using the Mission to hide in. He got lots of adoration and power with very little accountability. Got to scare the shit out of groveling premies. Sadly too, it provided him access to children whose parents considered it an honor the mahatma thought their children were such important devotees.

But what I said might have been stupid in another way and that is that he may have been shaking from excitement ( that is disgusting ) not guilt. I would think some sociopaths could pass polygraphs because they feel no guilt to register and believe their own lies. That is very possible.

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Date: Mon, Jan 31, 2000 at 04:29:14 (GMT)
From: 09
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: polygraph phiddle
Message:
ah Susan I am overcome with disgust

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 21:56:34 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Observer 9
Subject: I have a lot of the same
Message:
thoughts.

Even though I do not know what Rawat did about Jagdeo, I suspect he did something. Obviously it was not enough though. But I too think we are a lot more aware these days about the nature of pedophiles and if Rawat were to buck up and say,' I did know, I tried to stop him, and I am sorry that I did not do enough to stop him but at the time I thought I had' that he would diffuse the situation tremendously.

I think the reason that he does not is that all of this is inextricably linked to the 'did he present himself as God' question. To face this thing head on he would have to admit to being human and flawed in a very real way.
He might have to even deal with the fact that in the seventies premies treated him as a God and he encouraged this. So much of how it has been handled and is handled reflects the fact that this is a 'messiah' type cult we are dealing with. From my response of wanting to tell Rawat, not the police, Abi praying to 'Maharaj Ji' to protect her as she was brutally attacked, Randy and Judy telling Rawat, not the police and most of all lying about being told ( or being unable to 'recall' they were told ) and these hideous convoluted letters from EV doing non denial denials...it all speaks volumes about the fact it is a cult and everyone in it behaves as the cult leader wishes. It is really ugly.

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 22:37:46 (GMT)
From: Observer 9
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: I have a lot of the same
Message:
Yes I know
At that time it was as if when the premeis reached a point of needing him to refer to the fact that he was god-he did.

In between times, only those who where practicing the tecniques and sacrificying themselves were able to break the cosmic code and experience him as god.

What an illusion.

It would really help clean up the mess if he were to admit his inability to deal with it all now.
He might lose some riff raff premies and need to pay some compensation, but the ones who stay would keep him in golden clover and he should be happy with that.

And what is more important , we would feel that this acknowledgement is justice. The bad rumours and suspicion is like a foul rip tide for the pospects coming into his missionary mission.

I mean this is a business decision he has to make here.
His golden ship is taking in water to put it in lay nautical terms.

Hindi or not, he must see that such allegations in the 90s the age of Accountability can only work against him in a major way.

I think somewhere in there he has the guts for it. He would need to know its ok to admit publically that he blew it on the human social level. Hell he could plead that his godship hadnt penetrated that far. Now that is entirely believable!

I still hope something will happen.

You are in my thoughts Susan
Observer

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 18:57:04 (GMT)
From: Lily
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Holy sh_t
Message:
Many many parents use the 'abuse' of destroying hope for certain careers by saying it is too difficult to get in that field! or the 'abuse' of taking power and control away from the child by verbal or physical intimidation, threats, put-downs and even physical hitting or worse. This is the abuse he refers to, I am sure.

Also, I know that some Mahatmas were attracted (very mutually) to many young women in the communities. I this so horrible? If the young women you have said were taken advantage of, was it by force? Did Jagdeo know they were underage? Did anyone try to press charges on their behalf? What happened? How do you know for sure your sources are truthful? Does SHE/they wish to have this discussed in public fourum!?!

When I was a young woman (14), I willingly entered a forbidden relationship with the 27 year old boyfriend of my older sister. I felt in total control. He did not do anything that I did not want. He stopped from going as far with me as I desired, showing some integrity. I learned to French kiss from him and the memory of my awakening sexuality is a good one. I held resentment toward my sister at that time and it did not bother me that I was cheating on her with him. I have since discussed this time with her and have apologized for my part of it. This kind of an experience is one that can truthfully only be judged from within the relationship of the two parties involved, (BUT ONLY if it is not a CHILD who is NOT in any control or is TOO young or overwhelmed by the situation.) On the other hand, even a sexually mature woman could be considered like a child or an innocent, who is abused, if SHE felt overwhelmed, out of control, or victimized in any way!

You realize, I hope, that in many countries, 'women' who have reached sexual maturity are considered to be adults and can be married or can choose to have sexual experiences without societal taboos. We apply our cultural and personal biases to everything!

Was I abused by the man I kissed and allowed to fondle me through my clothes? I do not feel that way.

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Date: Sun, Jan 30, 2000 at 17:20:44 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Lily
Subject: Holy sh_t
Message:
Lily: Your statement, '...We apply our cultural and personal biases to everything!' should have read '...we apply our LAWS to everything...' We're talking the LAW here, not a social bias. If you come to this country, you submit to its laws. This certtainly applies to our citizens traveling elsewhere..... witness the youngster that 'tagged' a car in Singapore: Can you tell me how many times he was caned? I can, and it was THEIR law that he violated and it was THEIR law that punished him. BY the way, caning can be lethal..... They use it for rape offenses (caning until dead!) Needless to say, rape is almost non-existent there! Women aren't afraid to walk the streets at night or afraid to talk to much 'larger' males on the street, either. This is first-hand knowledge, by the way.

Underage sexual activity is the responsibility of the OLDER party. It's incumbent upon the older individual to ensure that the younger IS, in fact, of age. Judging from the person that I originally read, there would have been absolutely NO DOUBT that the individual was underage..... so much for the 'social bias' argument!

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 19:10:17 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Lily
Subject: Read this Lily...
Message:
You do not know enough on this topic. It most certainly is children we are talking about. Give me a sec and I am going to find the link for you.
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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 19:15:51 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Lily
Subject: here are the links
Message:
Lily,

These are copies of posts individuals have made, some are my own posts, regarding Jagdeo. These posts are the truth.

http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Island/6049/Truth/Abuse/abuse.htm

I cannot get it to link you will have to copy it into your browser I think

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 20:00:37 (GMT)
From: Lily
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: I agree with Katie Darling
Message:
I read the posts form you Susan and from Abi and Katie. I am again I say I am so sorry this happened to you. I am no stranger to abuse muself. I heard one out of three women and 1 out 5 men have been abused. There is a lot of help available to those like you who are courageous enough to tell! I hope maharaji will do something to aide the healing! Lily

Katie said:
Ultimately we’re all responsible for our choices, blah blah blah, and it’s all a big learning experience, blah, blah, blah. But part of getting
the real learning out of the whole thing is to unravel it, not just leave it as a knot somewhere deep inside you, sapping your energy and
perhaps eventually killing you off, or at least diminishing your joy and aliveness. All the bliss and joy and hopeful vision that you ever
experienced with Maharaji came from inside YOU and is still available. You can reaccess it. Part of the journey is to tell the truth about
what happened. That’s the best way to really “put it behind you.”

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Date: Sun, Jan 30, 2000 at 05:50:44 (GMT)
From: Mr D
Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk
To: Lily
Subject: Oh katie darling, Katie!
Message:
Yeah, it's available if you join Katie Darling's Mutha Wave therapy cult. Can't you see a hard sell when it's right under your nose? I put that post on my web site because it was insightful but flippin' heck, it doesn't take a professor to see that Ms Darling has another agenda there; namely her wonderful new-age therapy business.
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Date: Sun, Jan 30, 2000 at 17:23:11 (GMT)
From: Ms. K
Email: None
To: Mr D
Subject: Thought you were talking to me
Message:
David, DARLING!

Seriously, there are two people named Katie that post on here. One is me (Ms. K, or Katie Haering, who used to post as Katie), and one is Katie Darling, who has posted as Katie Darling, Kathryn, KMDarling, etc, and ALSO as Katie. This has caused confusion in the past.

Ditto for the several David's (especially the two British David S.'s) and the difference between Mike, Michael, and michael, who are all different people.

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Date: Mon, Jan 31, 2000 at 12:34:01 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Ms. K
Subject: It can be you too, darling
Message:
Look Katie, you are a darling too.
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Date: Mon, Jan 31, 2000 at 21:28:10 (GMT)
From: New here
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Jagdeo
Message:
Thank you all. This was the most informative and intellegent thread I have read. It gives me such respect for you all.Any tech advice on how to go back and read Susan and Abi's story's under Sir Dave would be helpful. PS. I spent much time w/ Jagdeo. I guess I wasn't his type. It was a wonderful x for me at that time. I felt clearer than he. He would touch my feet and then his own forehead at the time.

billie
Also, if anyoune recognizes me - I can't find my way back to a thread re: nine techniques. TY

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Date: Tues, Feb 01, 2000 at 01:28:55 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: New here
Subject: Jagdeo
Message:
Dear New Here,

The 9 techniques thread is in the inactive index (link at the bottom of the page). Susan and Abi's stories are on Dave's site:-

http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Island/6049/Truth/Abuse/abuse.htm

All the best,

Hohn

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 19:23:09 (GMT)
From: Lily
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Thankyou, I will read them nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Jan 31, 2000 at 12:21:28 (GMT)
From: To Lili
Email: None
To: Evil flouishes where.....
Subject: good people do nothing
Message:
good people do nothing.

The wishy washy 'good' people like you caused this phrase to be uttered.

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Date: Mon, Jan 31, 2000 at 20:01:03 (GMT)
From: cqg
Email: None
To: To Lili
Subject: 'For the triumph of evil...
Message:
The quote goes:

'The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.
Edmund Burke (1729-1797) - English statesman

He also came up with this beaut:

'The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion'

And this one:

'Nobody made a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could only do a little.'

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 19:09:53 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Lily
Subject: Holy sh_t
Message:
Lily,

I guess you haven't read Susan and Abbie's stories yet. Neither was a willing participant by any twisted definition of willingness. Susan's story is in the expremie.org journeys under 'G's Mom'. I'm not sure where Abbie's story is held. Someone will give you the link.

Be prepared for some serious expressions of anger for the ignorance you demonstrate in your post. The allegations against Jagdeo are extremely serious, and are currently under police investigation in the UK.

Welcome to the world of the mind, truth and doubt:-)

John.

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 19:33:34 (GMT)
From: Lily
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Not knowing, is not ignoring
Message:
To me the word ignorance means ignoring what you know to be true. Better words to describe what I said without knowing more would be 'innocence of the facts'. Is there a word that means that?

I will read more. It does concern me. I am glad it is being investigated. But, you know, even with all I read, I may not share the same reaction that Susan did to her experience, because I am not Susan. I respond to things in my life because of all my past experiences and mostly because of the way I thought about them and they way other people supported or did not support me after them. Susan has the right to feel and express whatever she feels. I wish for her healing.
Lily

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 19:51:06 (GMT)
From: Sir David
Email: None
To: Lily
Subject: Child abuse in Maharaji's org
Message:
The sorry tale is told by the people who suffered it.

Child abuse in Maharaji's organisation

It is not pleasant but it needs to be out in the open. Child abuse is bound to happen in a cult, it always does. What the cult leaders do or don't do to stamp it out is relevant.

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 19:44:05 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Lily
Subject: Read Abi's post too then....
Message:
What happened to me was very minor compared to what happened to her.
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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 13:57:20 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Great readings for week-end
Message:
Here's an interesting link:

ON THE PSYCHOLOGY OF SPIRITUAL MOVEMENTS

Here is an excerpt:

2. Leader/founder/guru
He/she represents an archetype in members' subconscious minds. That of a wise father, or mother. As such he/she will have a compelling influence on followers who project their father/mother complex on him/her.

Jeffrey Masson (see below) has this to say about gurus:
Every guru claims to know something you cannot know by yourself or through ordinary channels. All gurus promise access to a hidden reality if only you will follow their teaching, accept their authority, hand your life over to them. Certain questions are off limits. There are things you cannot know about the guru and the guru's personal life. Every doubt about the guru is a reflection of your own unworthiness, or the influence of an external evil force. The more obscure the action of the guru, the more likely it is to be right, to be cherished. Ultimately you cannot admire the guru, you must worship him. You must obey him, you must humble yourself, for the greater he is, the less you are - until you reach the inner circle and can start abusing other people the way your guru abused you. All this is in the very nature of being a guru.

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 18:16:22 (GMT)
From: michael
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: good stuff! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 16:14:03 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: Loafji@yahoo.com
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Jeffrey Masson
Message:

Loaf responded:
Have you read Masson's book - 'My Fathers guru' - interesting to see how far credulity will stretch at close quaters over a long period, from a young age.
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Date: Tues, Feb 01, 2000 at 00:44:10 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Loaf
Subject: Jeffrey Masson
Message:
Hi Loaf,

Did you ever see Masson's book 'Against Therapy'? It's a pretty damning indictment of the psychoanalytic movement and well worth a read. One thing that comes across is that the cult-like characteristics to be found in all therapeutic schools.

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 16:59:11 (GMT)
From: Sean
Email: seang2@earthlink.net
To: Loaf
Subject: Jeffrey Masson
Message:
There is another psychological facet to this. Many westerners, especially Americans, had to work hard at the devotee thing. Kissing someone's feet and making oneself completely subservient and faithful is not easy. That's why we needed premies around constantly beating this into the aspirants. I think that may have been a big cause of the pain and deep depression I saw in many aspirants ( god, I hate that word). They just couldn't seem to measure up and achieve that devotion the premies demanded of them. And we had to surround ourselves with 'satsang' all the time to try and keep those subversive elements from entering our minds-'Never allow doubt to enter you mind'. When you are not immersed it begins to slip. I think M knew this well and worked very hard to counteract this. Many people came/come to M (and others) because they are seeking that security and Mom/Dad thing, but most have to really work at it to stay. I think that is the source of a lot of our anger. We worked at this shit, even when our minds were telling us 'this aint right'-but then we were told our minds were evil ('Oh, you're in your mind again'-how many times did I hear that). That's what kills me. I worked at being a good devotee, because that's what would free me. And I had to explain away a lot of crap

An Anecdote:
Once upon a time, while painting M's bathroom in the first 'Divine Residence' (Oh my God!) in Denver. M requested me to go to Target, just down the hill, and buy 5 three liter bottles of Listerine. I said okeeDokey and went and got them. He was in the pool swimming around and we gave him the Listerine. He took each bottle and one by one poured them over his head.
Whats up with that? Must have been his Lila-ya think?

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Date: Mon, Jan 31, 2000 at 19:20:52 (GMT)
From: cqg
Email: None
To: Sean
Subject: Perhaps a swimming-pool sized
Message:
Perhaps a swimming-pool sized gargle for the biggest mouth this side of the gates of hell!
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Date: Tues, Feb 01, 2000 at 00:24:59 (GMT)
From: Sean
Email: seang2@earthlink.net
To: cqg
Subject: Perhaps a swimming-pool sized
Message:
I've got something I'd like him to swallow!
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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 17:47:46 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Sean
Subject: Fear of germs
Message:
Sean: Among other things, listerine is a good antiseptic solution. I think this was/is a manifestation of his fear of germs ala Howard Hughes. I believe this is the reason for the 'gold' fixtures, etc, too. The continuous insistance on 'sterilizing' everything he's going to touch, while circumstantial, is certainly worth noting in this context. FOR CHRIST'S SAKE, he heralds from India..... areas of which aren't exactly the cleanest places on the planet.... you'd think he would be used to it. He's probably got natural immunities to things that would affect us deeply. What's to fear? A funny side-light... I wonder how he would do on a hiking trip. 'Oh my god, you mean I have to poop in that hole in the ground? Where's my gold-leaf cathole liners?' he he he :-)

Imagine..... god-incarnate is afraid of germs..... maybe he knows something we don't, like 'seeds are dead!' snicker...:-)

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 18:39:56 (GMT)
From: Sean
Email: seang2@earthlink.net
To: Mike
Subject: Fear of germs--Woof! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 22:52:42 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Sean
Subject: Fear of germs
Message:
I remember working on getting a couple houses 'ready' for Rawat to stay in. Everything had to be spotless; we had to protect him from getting sick, since he was sooo important. At the time I felt it was us premies who came up with this idea. Now I wonder.

Another time I was doing security at a program near a private bathroom for his holelyness, no one could go anywhere near it. I guess he didn't want anyone in or even near the bathroom while he was taking a crap. He wouldn't want to be seen as human.

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 09:44:03 (GMT)
From: Angry
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Fundraiser for Fatso
Message:
It needs to be pointed out that a few months ago the PwK's were called together and given the good news of a big event in Amaroo. Of course, in order for this to happen, much money was needed to prepare the site. M wanted his premies to have a first class experience.

When this happened, it was predicted here that at a later time the event would be cancelled or postponed. This now seems to be the case.

When will the premies ever catch on to this trick?

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 15:50:58 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Angry
Subject: Fundraiser for miniraji
Message:
I remember when I heard this announcement that $450,000 had been raised, but that the event was postponed until next year with a vague explanation that Amaroo won't be ready, that it needs to be just right. I could see and feel the announcer's hurt and doubt. It was very awkward. The excuse was hard to believe, given that events have already taken place at Amaroo. I was actually relieved. To premies: did you also feel relieved? This is before I got off miniraji's proverbial fence that he has people on. Yes, it hurts to be on a barb-wired fence.
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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 10:48:02 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Angry
Subject: One of His favorite tricks
Message:
It's already happened so many times in the past!
Huge amounts of money collected for this project or that project, then the project is cancelled at the last minute, and the (useless) money 'donated' to Rawat, coz He knows how to use it.

And the premies never object.

One of his favorite tricks!! I guess he made millions with that one.

And it happened so many times. Premieji watch what's going to happen with the collected funds ....

Ask YOUR MONEY back.

You're lied to, again and again. Yoram Weisz, you bastard, how many times did you do that?

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 17:36:19 (GMT)
From: Jack
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: One of His favorite tricks
Message:
What worries me is that people like Yoram are called 'so beeeeaaauuutiful' by premies these days. I have heard it. I have also heard that when ever an instructor 'glides' into town they are 'so beeaauutiful' too. It's enough to make you sick aint it?

Anyway Jean, we have to stop getting angry for our own sakes... maybe take up meditation and become 'beauuttiful' too!

Best Wishes & Love to you,

Jack

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 23:29:39 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jack
Subject: a bastard is still a bastard
Message:
and there is nothing wrong getting angry.

I'm in control of myself, and I'm not angry all the time, or getting angry at everything anytime. I'm fine and happy. And I hope I'll never go back being brain-dead.

Yoram has been performing this trick, on Rawat's behalf for more than a decade, and this is enough. I've been duped by him several time, like so many premies.

This guy is doing this consciously, he has no ethics whatsoever when he wants money for his master. Same thing for all of Rawat's minions.

They're soooooooooo beauuuuuuuuutifuuuuuuuuul that they've abused many premies in many ways. Including female premies when invited at their home. Never invite an instructor home if you live by yourself. NEVER. Never stay alone with an instructor, NEVER, specially if you like him.

You might remember this all your life. Some of these guys are dangerous.

I'm definitely angry writing this, because some premies I know well told me what happened to them.

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Date: Sun, Jan 30, 2000 at 07:05:18 (GMT)
From: Sean
Email: seang2@earthlink.net
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Darshan
Message:
I just went over and looked around a little on the premie sites (couldn't take too much). If he's just an 'advisor' or whatever, then what's all this stuff about Lord this and Lord that. 'Keep watching the M-cam for Darshan'. It's the same old crap as it was thirty years ago. The premies are just bigger liars now. They know they have to cool it in public, but it's still pranam, pranam, pranam. Goddammit, it just makes me sick.
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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 22:02:47 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jack
Subject: My aura's still OK
Message:
according to my devotees ...

And I'm having fun with it, finally!!

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 05:19:18 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek™
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Everyone
Subject: Looking for backers for biz!
Message:
Ok, so everybody hates me. What else is new?

I'm a survivor and I don't care.

Worse, I'm a conniver and I want your money.

Ok, I don't see why I can't form a tax-exempt charitable educational organization and have subscribers do a pay-per-view thing that sends me money that is tax-free.

Requirements

  • Ok, I need a gimmick. I think I've got one.
  • I probably need to undercut Maharaji's price to attract more customers.
  • I need to have some aspect of education or whatever to avoid paying taxes.
  • And I definitely need shell companies related to the tax-exempt entity to funnel the wealth to me.

The Business Plan

  • Ok, here's the product - pre-recorded PORNO videos with some kind of educational/spiritual message that SEX is good for you and will help make you a better and more spiritual person.
  • Pricing - $10 per video, maybe even $5.
  • Education - again, the voice over with my voice how good sex is for your spiritual development.
  • Shell Companies - I'll just copy Maharaji's model.

Ok, I'm going to need some seed capital and maybe some porno videos. Who can help me here? No, I don't need help with the voice over spiritual stuff because I'm overflowing with vile ideas all the time.

Love,

Roger

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 06:23:52 (GMT)
From: AT
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek™
Subject: The Ticket - Pygmy Charities!
Message:
Roger, Roger....

You've got to get hep with the latest, PC Malibu Charities. BTW - you format so nicely. NOTE - I am not saying EV has anything to do with scamming pygmies... is that the plural?

The Pygmy Fund
P.O. BOX 277, MALIBU, CA 90265-0277
Information in this report is derived from IRS Form 990 or IRS Form 990EZ, an annual report filed by nonprofit organizations.
Who We Are:
HUMANITARIAN AID
Program / Activities
HUMAN SERVICES: Other Human Social Services
Financial Info
Fiscal Year: 1998
Assets: $220,615
Income $548,248
This organization files an IRS Form 990 or 990 EZ.
more financial information
EIN: 95-3147030
Ruling Year: 1977
How to Help:
Your cash donation to this public charity is fully deductible up to 50% of your adjusted gross income (AGI). The deduction for certain noncash donations is limited to 30% of your AGI; consult your tax adviser.

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 07:45:54 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek™
Email: drek@oz.net
To: AT
Subject: Wait a minute
Message:
No cotton fluff on this charity.

Now, this Pygmy Fund has like what you call assets and income listed.

And, what Elan Vital doesn't? Is that because it's a Church?

Those fuckers are getting away with fucking murder, aren't they?

They claim to be an educational organization to remove the taint of being considered a Church and maybe somebody might remember that Maharaji claimed he was God or something.

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 07:03:05 (GMT)
From: AT
Email: None
To: ALL
Subject: BTW - What constitutes a
Message:
Pygmy non-cash donation? Should I really consult my 'tax adviser'. Where's Bobby whats his name when ya need a good tax lawyer?

Your cash donation to this public charity is fully deductible up to 50% of your adjusted gross income (AGI).

The deduction for certain noncash donations is limited to 30% of your AGI; consult your tax adviser.

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 05:47:07 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek™
Subject: Will it cover your therapy? nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 06:34:47 (GMT)
From: Jim Heller
Email: heller@bc1.com
To: Runamok
Subject: Oh that is just SO uncaring!
Message:
Run,

Is that how they teach you to talk over on the Recent Ex site? My, my, my. Really! How hurtful not to mention insensitive.

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 06:52:09 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Jim Heller
Subject: Jimmy poo
Message:
Aren't you the ex-founder of es-premiedom?
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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 06:57:33 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: ok I learned it from you
Message:
ny
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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 06:58:46 (GMT)
From: Runamok NT
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: and spamming from Drek
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 07:12:18 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek™
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Runamok NT
Subject: Run, I don't have your address
Message:
can you email me your address.

I have some very important news to tell you. And it has important details on how you will be a millionaire with little or no money down. Interested? Yes, I know you are. Don't delay, do it today!

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 06:59:38 (GMT)
From: Sir Runamok
Email: None
To: Runamok NT
Subject: haven't you read McLuhan (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 05:59:23 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek™
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Runamok
Subject: That's where you come in
Message:
Run! We can work this to benefit the both of us.

I've been thinking that I need a 'Tough Love' approach to therapy to really break through and get to the bottom of my problems.

You're just the guy to help me, Run!

You got one of the I-CU-U-SEE-ME Cams attached to your computer? That's exactly what we'll do.

It's really the continual flowing of Maharaji's Grace that makes these things happen!

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 05:28:33 (GMT)
From: Sean
Email: seang2@earthlink.net
To: Roger eDrek™
Subject: Looking for backers for biz!
Message:
I don't hate you Roger. I feel nothing but love, while I'm floating here on an endless ocean of bliss. Just remember Holy Name and lotus feets and I know the divine grace of goomerahgee will bring you to success and liberation. Hold on a minute, my tongue is stuck in the back of my nose. I need to get a Qtip.

Sean

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 21:30:22 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Sean
Subject: Looking for backers for biz!
Message:
Sean
You are hangin with a rough crowd here. Anna when did you become their friend?
no matter we are all ex's. It'a OK.
but ...
Just so long as we are all up front here. I think Sean and I should have our own Guiness fund and hang on the porch.
I've found my own funding for therapy and prefer to give the rest of my money to Harry. He is teaching surrealism. Or is that Dave?
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Date: Sun, Jan 30, 2000 at 01:23:18 (GMT)
From: Ana T
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Looking for backers for biz!
Message:

Ana T responded:
Hey Selene... are you talking to me? 'Anna'

Yep, rough bunch. You are right - we are all ex-es.

Are you quite certain you're not one of my many siblings that our 'mum' popped out without me looking as only a good Irish Catholic mother could do (pop them out)?

Goin for a stroll.

Looks like the r is going down, down, down. My guess is he's bad for business now.

Keep on inspirin us to keep on keepin on.

Ana

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Date: Sun, Jan 30, 2000 at 00:08:27 (GMT)
From: Sean
Email: seang2@earthlink.net
To: Selene
Subject: Looking for backers for biz!
Message:
I always tend to gravitate to the rough side of town. When I lived in Dublin, I stayed on the worst street in the city-with the Special Branch (secret police)(I think I might have seen Raja ji) sitting outside.
Speaking of the Guiness Fund, if I go too long without it I start dreaming about flying to Ireland and having a pint.
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Date: Sun, Jan 30, 2000 at 00:22:49 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Sean
Subject: Looking for backers for biz!
Message:
Me too
a line from a dark movie I rememeber.
'I always was attracted to the dark side of town. futile fucking hopes'
M couldn't make a Hindu out of me. the damned Pope couldn't make a good Catholic girl out of me. so now what?
I doubt being a good systems analyst is the answer :)
Who gives a fuck about computing skills? (well some do obviously)

oh I know!! how about being myself and liking it. Now there is an adventure. and it could be fun with the right attitude.
This is the blessing of being freed from M. Starting to think like this. It took me 2 years to even get to this.
And I like to think I learn fast.

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Date: Sun, Jan 30, 2000 at 00:36:23 (GMT)
From: Sean
Email: seang2@earthlink.net
To: Selene
Subject: Looking for backers for biz!
Message:
Well, when we're told over and over again that we're wrong. That we have to be someone else and we work so hard at it, it does take a long time to find ourselves again. What's asked of us is so unnatural, we have to twist ourselves into an unrecognizable mass to achieve it. But of course we never achieve it because it doesn't exist. We don't know ANYTHING, so why do we torment ourselves to become something. We already are something. The Lakota say life is a mystery, the spirit behind everything is a mystery, we are a mystery. All we know is we are something in movement, from here to here. Something in movement.
Just be Selene, that's plenty good enough.
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Date: Sun, Jan 30, 2000 at 03:12:49 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Sean
Subject: Looking for backers for biz!
Message:
Just be.
Sean well.. I don't know you that well. and you don't deserve one
of Selene's famous lash outs. Especailly after she just got really bummed.
So, I'll email you if that's OK.

but for now I want to ask for comments from others.
And I don't mean it negatively at all. But how do other ex's feel when they are told to 'just be'?

Sean I know you meant well, really.

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Date: Sun, Jan 30, 2000 at 05:27:16 (GMT)
From: Sean
Email: seang2@earthlink.net
To: Selene
Subject: Looking for backers for biz!
Message:
Sorry about that Selene. I'm not expressing myself too clearly today. I definitely did not mean 'just be'. I hate that 'New Age' stuff. I just meant we don't need to pound ourselves because we aren't who others say we should be. They don't know either. Even when it's subtle, it's tyranny. I was always 'told' by someone, either in a book or in person or on a tape or something what I should be. You have to be this way to be holy, you have to be that way to love God. There's always something you have to fix. Well, how the hell do they know? I can't see any satisfying evidence that any of these sources have it all wrapped up. I thought M did. Then I thought his Mahatmas did. Then I thought the ashram premies did. Then I thought all those premies that made it to satsang every night did. It didn't matter cause I never did and I was always trying to measure up. All the religions have a picture of who you're supposed to be. Do more service, meditate more, you got to do nectar more. That's not the way you're supposed to act if you're holy. You don't measure up. But they don't know. None of them know. Hell they're all so busy being someone else their lives are passing them by.

When I said just be Selene, I meant you're the only one who knows what's going on inside you. Any other guide will eventually lead you astray.
Sorry again. Sometimes I start raving and make no sense. I sure don't want to lay any burdens on you or anyone else. We've got enough to carry just being alive.

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Date: Sun, Jan 30, 2000 at 05:51:26 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: selene@ocean.ccit.arizona.edu
To: Sean
Subject: Looking for backers for biz!
Message:
Thank you Sean. I took a long break off line. Watched a movie, kind of cute called 'Still Crazy' - how appropriate huh?
I got the impression from your posts you are musician? You might
like it.
I was just getting ready to email you when I saw your post. I'm fading slowing now so I may not get to email now but I hope we can get in touch and I really appreciate you posting that.
I do have a problem with that identity thing.
I think I am so strong yet do see that it is very easy for me to be 'told how to be' and so I did try to soften my response to you.
And you took it very well and you were right on with what you said. and read the symtoms of our 'disease' very well.
I'm glad you are here on this forum.
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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 22:32:47 (GMT)
From: Master Aaron Spelling
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: That's where H. gets the $
Message:
no text, but ran out of room on subject line to put NT
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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 22:56:40 (GMT)
From: selene
Email: None
To: Master Aaron Spelling
Subject: That's where H. gets the $
Message:
It's a good thing for you. I hate those nt's.
And I didn't fight those damned security guards at age 20 and
5'3' 102 lbs for nothin. Little did I know. It was to prepare me
for the forum.
oh well.
at least it's my life this time around. I still think harry and dave are the same person. I'm so confused.
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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 04:14:57 (GMT)
From: What's Going On?
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: John Brauns Defects?
Message:
From Enjoying Life Site.

John Brauns

Knowledge since receiving Knowledge
John from London looks back over 27 years with Knowledge

I received this gift in 1973 and it's been a big part of my life since. I've learnt so much from practicing Knowledge and listening to Maharaji. It's hard to describe how wonderful I feel since I understood the reality of Knowledge. I am so grateful to Maharaji for making it clear to me what Knowledge really means, and I hope he comes to England soon. I do hope he continues to reveal the real truth to all the people who can hear what he has to give.

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 13:19:26 (GMT)
From: JHB (John Brauns)
Email: None
To: What's Going On?
Subject: John Brauns Defects?
Message:
Well I wanted to see how stupid they are over there. I've been openly me on this site for the last year, I immediately cancelled my donations to EV when becoming an ex, and I've sent highly critical emails directly to Maharaji in my own name, so I just wanted to see if they would recognise me.

Anyway, a more detailed version of my ELK posting follows:-

John from London looks back over 27 years with Knowledge

I received this gift in 1973 and it's been a big part of my life since.

Well no ex could deny that knowledge played a big part in our lives while we were in the cult, and since we left.

I've learnt so much from practicing Knowledge and listening to Maharaji.

I've learnt he has nothing to do with any experience of meditation I have, and that he's a lying, greedy, fraud.

It's hard to describe how wonderful I feel since I understood the reality of Knowledge.

The reality of knowledge is that it's just four meditation techniques that Maharaji has no rights to. The feeling of release and exhiliaration when leaving the cult is really hard to describe as other exes have noted here. Premies who post simply do not believe it can feel that good.

I am so grateful to Maharaji for making it clear to me what Knowledge really means, and I hope he comes to England soon.

Maharaji's incompetent teaching, his open greed, his defence of Jagdeo, and his lies through the years and on his website, have taught me that knowledge is just some meditation techniques that he had no special rights to. If he had been more careful and clever, he could probably have strung me along until my dying breath. I am truly grateful for that.

And I do hope he comes to England soon, because we'll certainly be ready for him in terms of media reception. Sadly, I don't think he will have the courage to do so.

I do hope he continues to reveal the real truth to all the people who can hear what he has to give.

I do hope he continues to demonstrate the real truth that he is a fraud who is in it for the money. For God's sake, broadcasting by satellite at 25 quid a time pre-recorded videos - what better way to lose followers?!

So, everything I said was true and I am a little shocked and very amused that ELK published my contribution. I wonder if they'll publish this more detailed version!:-)

John

PS. I do have lot's of defects but I don't think any are displayed here!

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Date: Sun, Jan 30, 2000 at 22:39:01 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: JHB (John Brauns)
Subject: Mischief past...
Message:
Nice one John, but I am very surprised that they publish anything nowadays before confirming that the poster is a paid-up practising premie. I don't know if you remember this, but late in '98 a group of us sent a load of spoof 'lives' entries to El.org to test the waters with regard to what sort of content is acceptable (eg., you mustn't refer to M as being God, nor should you imply he is anything LESS than God. The editors have a tricky job!)

Unacceptable content, we discovered, is routinely cut or even reworded, sentences added etc., without the contributor's consent.

The whole scam is still on-line via the main ex-premie.org site, under the link: 'Baring their standards: enjoyinglife exposed'.

After this episode, they tightened up their screening process, but it looks like you have managed to sneak under the wire. I am also surprised it hasn't been removed yet.

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Date: Mon, Jan 31, 2000 at 00:19:31 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Mischief past...
Message:
Nigel,

It was hard work writing something that could appear pro maharaji but at the same time be honest to my feelings. Thank you for your appreciation:-)

If it stays there for a week I will write a followup.

John.

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 18:14:05 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek™
Email: drek@oz.net
To: JHB (John Brauns)
Subject: Roger eDrek™ Defects?
Message:
Well I wanted to see how stupid they are over there.

Lacking in all humility, perhaps the notorious Roger eDrek™ should submit something to EnjoyingLife?

Won't I need someone to vouch for my character? John, pretty please?

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 18:31:36 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek™
Subject: Roger eDrek™ Defects?
Message:

JHB responded:
Roger,

I did it all by myself! Seriously, I'd be interested in learning how they vet contributions. Do they say 'Hey - anyone know this John Brauns?' And someone answers, 'yeah, didn't he do childcare in Leeds in the late 70's'. 'Yeah, that's him. Must be a good guy then - publish.'

So good luck to you and I'll be happy to testify to your writing skills, and your dedication:-)

John.

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 14:06:36 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Hey - I got my own link!!!!
Message:
Enjoyinglife.org are so short of contributions, I got my own personal link on their front page direct to my 'lives' entry!!!!!!

I'm laughing like someone who laughs a lot who's just heard a really good joke!!!

John.

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 14:51:46 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@tigerriver.com
To: JHB
Subject: Hey - I got my own link!!!!
Message:
I see that it's still there too. Maybe Cainer was the only one of the original Premie Island quadruplets who actually read the forum. The forum might just be a trade secret in the forecasting business...

They'll probably figure it out eventually. But Maharaji may have to intervene. Time to send out David Coyne on another mission.

Meanwhile, we can't take chances. We have to move fast. If John Brauns has actually defected, then it's imperative that we change the secret ex-premie handshake. This time lets make it something where we can keep our shoes on, okay?

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 15:00:04 (GMT)
From: cqg
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: and our own handshake?
Message:
'Meanwhile, we can't take chances. We have to move fast. If John Brauns has actually defected, then it's imperative that we change the secret ex-premie handshake. This time lets make it something where we can keep our shoes on, okay?'

How about the old Vulcan 'live long and prosper' sign, then extend the thumb as well. Turn wrist thru 45 degrees and shake.

Now - how do we make it secret?

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 06:06:29 (GMT)
From: Jack
Email: None
To: What's Going On?
Subject: John Brauns Defects?
Message:
Dear John,

Are you a spy for Enjoying Life? What's with the post there?

Jack

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 04:29:01 (GMT)
From: R Greenhouse effectDrek™
Email: drek@oz.net
To: What's Going On?
Subject: I like plants. What's problem
Message:
Subject Should Be: I like plants. What's the problem?

I'm a wild fern, myself. Or sometimes I'm a Devil's Club. Anybody ever downclimb a steep hillside covered in Devil's Club? Ouch!

I see John Brauns as a brightly colored indoor coleus.

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 08:02:18 (GMT)
From: Sir Joseph Banks
Email: None
To: R Greenhouse effectDrek™
Subject: And you could be ...........
Message:
A Stinking Roger? Marigolds to the uninitiated in common English garden varieties. You like?
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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 08:37:31 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek™
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Sir Joseph Banks
Subject: I'm a sucker for abuse
Message:
I have a voodoo doll of my own likeness.

A Stinking Roger! Ah, how I am so 100% Perfect like that spark.

My rarely ever seen Y2K Holiday photos complete with party hat

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 05:28:24 (GMT)
From: say what?
Email: None
To: R Greenhouse effectDrek™
Subject: I like plants. What's problem
Message:
It may as well be one
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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 16:28:36 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Another enjoyinglife entry
Message:
Check out another entry at www.enjoylife.org under Around the Planet - Isle of Wight, this one written by a premie!

The person writes that when inviting friends to hear about the miniraji, the writer expects them to respond with boredom and say no thank you (hmmm I wonder why). When they instead show interest, the writer is horrified!

And the miniraji claims to show people perfect peace?

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Date: Mon, Jan 31, 2000 at 01:59:39 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Waking up the monkey in me
Message:
Check out this entry at appreciation.org. It has some interesting wording.

One thing it says is that m doesn't support any religion (except himself). That when someone follows m's system, before he knows it, he has dropped the rituals he believed in. It says that after saying you can have your own religion and follow his system (i.e. him).

He also says that m has captured him, and has woken the Hanuman (a mythical monkey from Hindu scriptures) in him. Yes, m is making a monkey of him alright.

And at the top of the page, it sure looks like m decked out in all his Krishna glory, crown and all, with all these Indians worshipping him! The picture of him is so small that you wouldn't be able to tell this unless you've been around. So here is this guy furtively and wimply implying he's GOD right on the internet. If this isn't a strange religion, I don't know what is. (Krishna is believed by Hindus to be an incarnation of GOD.)

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Date: Mon, Jan 31, 2000 at 16:59:42 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: G
Subject: judging from the guys pic
Message:
it wasn't a difficult task to awaken the monkey within him.
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Date: Sun, Jan 30, 2000 at 22:00:07 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fittzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: G
Subject: * Isle of Wight premies*
Message:
The Isle of Wight was my community and those two enjoyinglife entries were almost certainly written by somebody who was/is/would be a friend of mine if I still lived down there.

Funny thing is, the freakish, impersonal style that passes for communication at enjoyinglife.org precludes all possibility of recognition.

So who are you, Isle of Wight premie? Do you remember when Margie was still the Living Lard and the community was almost thirty-strong in the super-devotional days? We used to do public programmes in faded holiday hotels back then, too. (We were even allowed to talk to the public, I remember.)

If you remember me and happen to read this thread, send me an email (as long as your name isn't Tony). Tell me what's happening, who has jumped ship and who is still around. It would be great to talk.

Nigel, the ex-maker of arti-candles.

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 17:57:57 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Horrified
Message:
G: The premie in such a situation is probably thinking, 'Oh my god, I might actually have to explain how beauuutiful this NON-EXPERIENCE really is!'

You see, it's a problem for them because they have gotten out of the habit of lying.... ooppss, I mean satsang. It used to be easy to tell people how beauuutiful the experience was, once you had been appropriately brainwashed and then permitted to practice on others of your kind (until you were good enough to do it in public). Quite frankly, I hold myself as responsible for this as anyone else..... Although I will say that I did have some beautiful times with my premie friends, at the time. Those were often the experiences of which I spoke during my turns at the brainwashing-wheel (and that was probably true enough..... It was the proclamation that it 'came from' M that was the BIG LIE!)

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 22:35:04 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Horrified
Message:
Sometimes I have felt/feel good from meditating, but the good feeling comes from inside of me, not from Rawat. I view meditating as merely an aid, a bridge to be able to notice my consiousness and feel some peace. I think Rawat portrays a very distorted view of the whole thing. And he's such a party pooper, at least before we could get together and share some love. Now he wants people to listen to a lifeless video of him spouting a strange mix of luke-warm new age talk and a thinly disguised, bastardized Sikh devotional trip.
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Date: Sun, Jan 30, 2000 at 17:26:41 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: G
Subject: I agree
Message:
G: I won't (and shouldn't, actually) comment on a person's personal experience in meditation. BUT, like you, I find that M's taking credit for the experience to be totally ludicrous and demeaning to the individual that 'did the work!' He hasn't, doesn't and won't ever be the source of the meditation experience. His claiming, or allowing others to claim for him, that he is the 'source' is the liggest lie of all!
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Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 21:26:58 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: DEportation #3
Message:
You may recognize my voice. At the first Orlando fireworks satang I screamed at Rawat on his air compressed throne: Who do you think you are anyway? You've ruined my life. And Rawat screamed back: I'll show you who I am. And from his staged he zapped me with his chakra power. Yes, Rawat has highly developed chakra powers. Many people do. But those powers have nothing to do with God. You can use them for anything. Rawat uses them for anything he wants to. Even to physicaly harm people who he wants to get out of the way. After five years of meditation I started to have chakra activation and succumbred to using them for negfative things. But I also lost control of them and foucd out how harmful they are to yourself. They actulay can kill you. So why do I want to get rid of Rawat? Nobody I know of was ever told how dangerous chakra yoga is. There were statements like: you are ten thousand feet in the air without a parachute. Yes that is a good anology. And if yoiu fall it can kill you. So, is any one
who is familiar with this forum willing to list the various things that have been talked about as possible ways to get rid of M? Deportaion is the only thing I can think of - or possibly getting $10,oo dollarts to gether and putting a full page denunciation in the USA Today. Sorry I don't hav e any jokes to add to what seems to be a Forum dedicated mostly to jokes. But I have been reading the Milton Berle joke book and may be able to come up with a Mahalila someday, unless all of Rawatism is a Mahalila of the demonic kind. Hey, none of the socalled 'satgurus' ever give up. Read the bible of Eckankar, it has the mostd detailed version of the Satguru philosophy you could ever come across. It turns out that Shri Hans, Kir Pal Singh, and Sudar Singh(Eckankar) had the same root guru, and much the same philosophy, and much the same powers. Even Padre Pio of the Catholic Church developed chakra actiation after ten years under house arrest. But the Padre induced the stigmata into the palms of his hands instead of his wrists where they belong - as shown in the shroud of Turin.
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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 17:50:59 (GMT)
From: Jack
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Same Gurus
Message:
Dear Richard,

In my book, 'The Lord as Guru' by Daniel Gold, he states that Kirpal Singh's guru was Sawan Singh. I'm going to look on M's lineage page and see if you are right about this.

Jack

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 02:12:45 (GMT)
From: Sir David
Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk
To: Richard
Subject: DEportation #3
Message:
Maharaji will just find his natural level here in the West. There are now enough checks and balances in place to prevent him from going too far or from deluding people. Since his main form of propogation is on the internet, he has plenty of opposing voices which are telling people how he really is.

Glad to read that you reckognise that Roman crucifixion was carried out by nailing the wrists to a crossbar and not the hands. Actually, nailing the wrists was much more painfull as the nails went through the main nerve going through the fore-arm and into the hands. It was also the only way to hang somebody from a cross since nails in the hands would tear through the hands.

I gather that the sight of a crucified person was far from a dignified one. Their legs would be bent at the knees and the feet nailed onto the cross (or wall) with the feet just below the crotch. Death was from suffocation as eventually the diaphragm would be unable to move and allow breathing. People would often push their body up by attempting to straighten their legs and this would take the strain off their diaphragm and enable easier breathing and prolong their life. I guess this would be a natural instinct.

That's why the Romans used to break the legs of their victims, so that they could no longer push themselves up and take the strain off their chest. Once their legs were broken, they would die pretty quickly.

The Shroud of Turin has been shown to be possibly a clever fake. There is one glaring mistake they made which has been pointed out. I will explain this mistake if anyone wants.

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Date: Tues, Feb 01, 2000 at 17:41:22 (GMT)
From: interested
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: Turin
Message:
Yes, pls continue.
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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 18:09:44 (GMT)
From: Jack
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: DEportation #3
Message:
In my book Kirpal Singh's guru was Swarupanand. A different Guru than Han's Ji's. This book is about Hindi Sants in the Northern Indian Trdition and seems to be well written and accurate.

Jack

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 23:09:35 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Jack
Subject: m grandgurus
Message:
On m's site, it states that 'Sri Swarupanand ji Maharaj' was Hans Ji's guru. But I have read that he was also initiated by the other guy.
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Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 18:39:07 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: I FOUND IT! (slightly OT)
Message:
All: I've found it! I've found the one positive experience from my association with M.... Ghee!

I just realized that it wasn't until I met premies that I learned how to make ghee. It's a wonderful substance. For cooking in the wilderness, it can't be beat! Here's a small list of it's attributes:

- It keeps for months at room temperature (you have to be careful to make it correctly, though).

- A little goes a very long way.

- It doesn't burn at high temperatures (often the only 'setting' with lightweight wilderness stoves)

- It 'seasons' pans beautifully!

- As the cooking base for cajun seasonings, it's perfect!

- It adds that 'buttery' flavor to anything that's cooked in it (or anything you put a small amount on... as a flavoring agent). You don't have to bring those disgusting dried 'butter buds' on the trip!

- In a pinch, it can make a nifty candle...... (we all KNEW that)!

I just wish I had spent my money to go to the Cordon Bleu Culinary School instead of giving it to M..... it would have been much better spent (I would have learned a few more recipes, too)! Yes, I love to cook and that applies in the wilderness, as well. Hey, who says you can't eat well on a hike?

So THERE, that's my one positive experience..... Well, not quite true.... I wouldn't have met with ex-premies if I hadn't been one in the first place. OK, ok 'two' positive experiences..... he he he :-)

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Date: Sun, Jan 30, 2000 at 20:38:52 (GMT)
From: Jack
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Ghee
Message:
Gee, I agree with you about Ghee! Do you make your own... if so how? Or do you used the bought kind in a tin... veggie or clarified butter..the real McCoy?

Look forward to more recipes. The best thing that happened to me was going overland to India.

Jack

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Date: Mon, Jan 31, 2000 at 16:20:10 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jack
Subject: Making ghee
Message:
Jack and G: I always make it from real, unsalted butter. 'Unsalted' is important because the salted stuff doesn't skim well. Here's how you do it:

I have to differ with G on this one because there are TWO things that must be gotten rid of to make it pure for room temperature storage (ghee is different from clarified butter)..... By the way, it's easiest to do if you use at least two sticks of butter, cut into pieces (so they melt quickly).

OK, NOW here are the instructions:

In a small sauce pan, melt the butter. Once it's melted, let it boil for about 30 to 45 SECONDS (NOT minutes!). Turn the heat off and using a teaspoon, skim the foam off the top. This will take a while, so don't get discouraged. Next, if you boiled it long enough, you should see some white stuff on the bottom of the pan..... this is stuff that you DO NOT WANT, either. So, carefully and slowly pour the clear, yellow liquid into a fine mesh strainer that has a paper coffee filter (or fine cheescloth) in it. This, again, will take some time and care, but remember you are trying to make a butter that will keep in room temperatures (or heat, if you are hiking in the summer), it pays to be careful here! Stop pouring before you reach the 'white stuff' on the bottom. Now, throw away the milk solids (white stuff). You now have real ghee! For a 'toasted' flavor, you can cook the butter a little longer so that the 'white stuff' burns to the bottom of the pan before you start the skimming/pouring operation.

OK, so what if you want to make absolutely certain that you got rid of all the impurities and solids that will spoil the ghee in heat? Take the ghee that you just made, put it in a clean pan and do the operation one more time...... don't worry, it's VERY difficult to burn ghee because the stuff that burns in a pan has been removed (or most of it anyway). Boil it one more time and then remove any remaining foam on the top and re-pour thru a coffee filter/mesh-strainer ensuring that any remaining 'white stuff' on the bottom of the pan remains IN the pan and not in your ghee container.

OK, OK, I know that this sounds like alot of work, but it's well worth it and it tastes great, keeps very well and it won't burn in your hiking pans (or pans at home, for that matter). I usually make this stuff in fairly large quantities so that I don't have to do it too often (it IS alot of work). It will keep for months at room temperature..... It will keep indefinitely in the refrigerator..... it would probably outlive dinosaurs in the freezer!!!

THERE! Is that complicated enough????? he he he :-)

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Date: Mon, Jan 31, 2000 at 17:15:12 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Making ghee
Message:
Thanks for the info. I forgot about the white stuff at the bottom and the details. I don't remember if I strained the butter or not or about unsalted vs. salted. Your recipe looks good.
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Date: Sun, Jan 30, 2000 at 23:51:44 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Jack
Subject: Ghee
Message:
I made Ghee! Oh yes, I made Ghee!
For the Arti tray for my Guru Majaraji Ji!
Nothing but the real McCoy would do.
Anything else would insult the Guru.
Twice a day I would swing the tray.
Doing so would keep the evil away.

Mind you this was not a ritual,
even though it seemed like one.
No, it was pure love and devotion,
and oh so much fun!

Oops!

I'm shouldn't say this in public,
what a baaaad premie I am.
I should obey my Master's Agya,
and go along with the lie.

Making Ghee is simple, just heat butter in a proper sized pan, not too much heat, and skim off the crud at the top. Keep doing this until there is no more crud left.

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 16:22:30 (GMT)
From: BJ
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: I FOUND IT! (slightly OT)
Message:
My gosh you are a very funny person. Keep it up.

BJ

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Date: Sun, Jan 30, 2000 at 22:31:36 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: all
Subject: don't read this
Message:
On a slightly more downer note
sorry... this is one of selene's editorials

You can be a friend but not be a friend

get involved but not get involved
never get yourself too dirty
cause we learned from the best

I'm wanting to unlearn...

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Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 21:33:41 (GMT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Hey, this is fun!
Message:
Here's my list--
Good things I got out of my association with premies:

1) A darn good hair conditioner
2) Ability to understand aromatherapy (remember Patchouli incense, everyone? It's back!)
3) Affinity for strange vegetarian recipes
4) Ability to sleep almost anywhere
5) Ability to smugly apply Bible verses to current events (snicker--okay, you caught me...that one is not so good!)
6) Knowledge that material objects have no value in one's self realization (isn't the jury still out on this one?)

More as I think of them...

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Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 18:56:26 (GMT)
From: selene
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: I FOUND IT! (slightly OT)
Message:
I'll bet you looked SO cute swinging that Arti tray with the ghee candle up
front of the altar in one of those sari thingies Mike!
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Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 19:21:13 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: selene
Subject: Now that you mention it
Message:
Selene: I forgot to mention the 'candle' part..... Only 'oldies' will appreciate the irony....:

I was out in the middle of nowhere doing a solo hike. My flashlight batteries (torchligh for you Brits...he he he) had gone dead and I had forgotten to pack any spares (I can be so forgetful)! It was the middle of the night and I was hearing the distant call-of-nature..... well, not quite so distant, really! Anyway, I knew I couldn't make it until morning, sooooo... in one of my better moments of 'adapt and overcome,' it struck me that I could make a candle from a cotton ball (in my first aid kit), some ghee and one of my cooking utensils. IT WORKED!

Imagine me swinging my 'arti tray' to pay homage to the cat-hole I had dug earlier..... he he he he :-) ONLY BY M'S GRACE could I have thought of that.... thank you M, thank you M..... he he he :-)

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Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 19:34:42 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Now that you mention it
Message:
Well we didn't come up with that shortcut nickname BM
out of nowhere. Must have been you that started it.

That is a funny picture all right!

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 16:45:25 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: laughed like crazy at this(nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 21:43:08 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: laughed like crazy at this(nt)
Message:
Me too. the visual image of Mike paying homage to his shrine I mean.
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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 00:08:22 (GMT)
From: Agasp
Email: None
To: all
Subject: benefits from premeidumb
Message:

My prem days left me with :

1 A high- tech- super- sonic- hi- fi- dictionary- word- bullshit detector

2 The deep cramping belly laughs that I get from reading the posts on this forum.

3 A deeper faith in the human spirit, cause nobody argues like an expremie

Sorry but warm fuzzies to all a ya

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 12:27:58 (GMT)
From: ij
Email: None
To: Agasp
Subject: benefits from premeidumb
Message:
Continuing benifits

1/ Most of the previous

2/ Learn the difference between a wooden framed straight strung and a metal framed overstrung underdamped piano.

3/ Learnt how to bodge up a fleet of claped out vans & cars.

4/ Learnt that arse licking is an art form perfected by want to be near M premies and I was in the 3rd division or possible the Beazer Home league.

IJ

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 13:29:34 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: ij
Subject: benefits from premeidumb
Message:
Dear IJ,
Shit, I wish I'd learned about cars and van!!! :(
You've got me curious about the piano? Did you start to play while a premie? There sure was a lot of musical talent in the premies, eh? That was one great part. My first boyfriend on the 'outside' was a musician. I just loved having live music around so much. :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 17:48:48 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Let's sing together!
Message:
Lots of new songs now online,

Devotional Songs

Including ...

Focus
Golden Way
Guru is the Father of All
Guru Maharaj Ji You are so big
King of Kings
Lila
Little tears of happiness
Oh Lord we've been waiting so long
One in the Spirit
Peace and Bliss is Satguru
Spread This Knowledge
The Lord of the Universe
There's a light in you
You Are My Only Light

Enjoy.

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Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 18:09:31 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Don't eat before reading (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 04:30:05 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek™
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Mike
Subject: Don't eat the pudding? NT
Message:
asdf
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Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 18:12:01 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Sorry I forgot the WARNING nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 21:09:16 (GMT)
From: Cqg
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Sorry I forgot the WARNING ...
Message:
... and sorry you should be!

'If you took all the wealth of ages,
All the knowledge from all the pages,
And brought them like a mountain to His feet,
The Love of Maharaj Ji
Would dim the brightest diamond
And make the sweetest poem seem incomplete.'

..bbbwwwwwleeeeeuuuuurrgghhhhhhhhwwwa....splattt

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 00:42:26 (GMT)
From: me
Email: None
To: JM
Subject: you forgot the WARNING ...
Message:
I just puked
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Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 04:56:01 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek™
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Everyone
Subject: Diversion - Maharaji Only
Message:
For those not wishing to read my 'off topic' junk I offer you this post that I made below. I found that what I came up with through a dialectic with Runamok was rather interesting. Perhaps, others could add to this via their own observatations as to how the wealth was redistributed within DLM/EV. Of course, let us never forget the source of that wealth - the backs of the common premie.

Maharaji's hush money

For the sake of argument let's assume that Maharaji has, indeed, paid off some people. We might even have one such example in Australia.

I really think that many of the big honchos in DLM/EV were the shrewd leftovers of the '60s radical hippie era. In fact, Donner and, hell, Rennie Davis were, indeed, big names in the movement. These guys were already adept in building and organizing organizations that allowed them the freedom, autonomy, and cash to do what they wanted and what they pleased without having to have a day job. Sure, the motives were noble and sincere during the war and even during the early glory days of DLM. After all, we were going to save the world. Consider that at the time Maharaji was only 13, 15 or 18.

Maharaji probably didn't have a fucking clue as to what was going on. Nor do I think that he wanted to be bothered with the details either. In fact, GET THIS! Maharaji was probably too stoned, too drunk, too busy watching TV, and too busy fucking to really give a damn.

Let me say those sentences again because it's so damn right on:

Maharaji probably didn't have a fucking clue as to what was going on. Nor do I think that he wanted to be bothered with the details either. In fact, GET THIS! Maharaji was probably too stoned, too drunk, too busy watching TV, and too busy fucking to really give a damn.

It was my personal, yes, personal experience, where I've seen people get rich from the fruits of DLM/EV and, hell, basically on the backs of premie slave labor and it was more of an evolved happenstance where DLM/EV had to divest to ensure retention of their tax exempt status. I really do not believe that Maharaji hand selected these people. And more importantly is that at that time these people did not need to be bought off because they were the faithful. Still, Maharaji received money from these ventures through hefty donations as we've seen via the Amtext model.

As for Donner and maybe others, I'd guess and bet that Donner ended up stealing the money from Maharaji. We need to consider that a lot of the business action was based on a good ol' boy network of PAMs whom worked, I believe, autonomously of Maharaji. While none of us has the exact details, I think that it might be fair to assume that Donner as the autonomous agent that he was latched onto some book contract somewhere and got a big piece of the action in a one time deal. Donner might have brokered or acted as a middleman for a single deal of a warehouse of books that had been gathered by the Bookies.

I remember the old jumbling days where there would be a warehouse or truckload of clothing and fabric. While the people that donated that stuff might have thought that those clothes would end up in thrift stores or given to the poor they weren't. Hell, when I joined up I gave a boatload of fine clothes and I was seeing them for years on backs of ashram premies. The ashram or Divine Sales premies had first pick and then most of those clothes got bulk sold and ended up in Africa or other third world nations or in fiber and fabric recycling mills where they were turned into those goofy throw rugs or fiber for industrial use.

The people that paid or lost out versus Mike Donner's and his self-service severance package windfall might have been Maharaji or the little Bookies who did all the work. But, I'd bet that there might have been enough money out of the deal for Donner to send Maharaji some cash for the purposes of remaining within standard operating parameters and not to raise suspicion on the part of Maharaji. Thus, there was no man hunt to track down Donner and Donner has no animosity towards Maharaji. I'm only speculating based on what I saw of the Good Ol' Boy network here.

And now Donner owns some kind of gentleman herb farm in the Okanagon Valley of B.C. Think about it. Back then it probably cost nothing. Think about the fabulous produce like apples and peaches and stuff that comes out of the OK Valley. Get the picture? I might be being slanderous here and that is for goddamn sure! Sue me, motherfucker. I ain't got fucking nothing. I didn't get out of DLM with fucking squat like you did, Mr. D. of the Midland 13 or whatever-the-fuck. I'm just a fucking working stiff who lost about 10 good years to your Boss.

And don't forget that there were plenty of good ol' boy networked drug deals in the '70s with tentacles reaching as far as South America were the dope might have been muled up to Miami or Kissimmee for pickup and distribution. Believe me when I say that indeed saw one such operation. Alas, I was not part of it. I only did the 'math' and came up the answer.

Again, the Dettmers' resume thing is a nothing. Doesn't cost Maharaji a nickel. Can Dettmers provide any references to back up his claims? I doubt it. It's just your standard resume fluff.

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 08:05:42 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Roger eDrek™
Subject: Diversion - Maharaji Only
Message:
Keep it up, Rog.

You are only adding more to the dung heap of 'credibility' of your other anti-Maharaji stuff.

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 05:44:32 (GMT)
From: Jim Heller
Email: heller@bc1.com
To: Roger eDrek™
Subject: Correction re Donner
Message:
Sorry that some of this Donner info got garbled. I'm the guy who met him the summer before last. Here're the facts:

1) Donner's kind of okay. A little too new-agey for me and maybe a little too opinionated. That's a bad combination for my palate.

2) He's living in the Kootenay's, a beautiful part of the B.C. interior south of the Okenogan. No fruit farm, just several families, including Gary Ockendon and some other premie-type, Chris Moon, who I remember as a real weenie who's apparently turned himself into a new age 'workshop' leader of all things. They all have separate houses but share the land which has a large community hall as well. Beautiful place.

3) Donner told me he got involved in the book business a bit and basically pirated one large contract, just like Rodger says. (Well, I told Rodger, didn't I?). I did indeed get the impression that he made off like a bandit. I thnik this came up over dinner in the context of me asking him what he did (nothing ) and how we was able to retire so nicely. Over a bottle of wine he bragged a bit.

4)Donner also told me that he used to smoke dope with Maharaji (who bogarted as if he were God or something).

5) He also said that Maharaji gave him personal agya to sneak Fakiranand out of the states after he tried to kill Hailey.

6) He also said that he didn't like Maharaji, mainly because he finally realized -- surprise, surprise -- that, in the context of their 'friendship' Maharaji didn't consider him an equal.

7) Donner's never posted here, at least not under his own name. There's no reason to think he has either.

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 05:03:01 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek™
Subject: diversion AWAY from m
Message:
...Consider that at the time Maharaji was only 13, 15 or 18.

Maharaji probably didn't have a fucking clue as to what was going on. Nor do I think that he wanted to be bothered with the details either. In fact, GET THIS! Maharaji was probably too stoned, too drunk, too busy watching TV, and too busy fucking to really give a damn.

Let me say those sentences again because it's so damn right on:

Maharaji probably didn't have a fucking clue as to what was going on. Nor do I think that he wanted to be bothered with the details either. In fact, GET THIS! Maharaji was probably too stoned, too drunk, too busy watching TV, and too busy fucking to really give a damn.

***************************

Well thats it then. We might as well all go home. Maharaji had nothing to do with the building of his financial empire. If he today enjoys a Sultan of Brunei lifestyle, its all because of Rennie Davis, Michael Dettmers, and Mike Donner.

Maharaji? Hey, he was just the piano player in the brothel, right Rodge?

I got it! Instead of being ex-premies, why don't we all become ex-Donnerites??? :::)))

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Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 10:32:47 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek™
Subject: Another Diversion
Message:
Why don't we try writing some pages on EV's and Rawat's history since the ashram closing, and specially during the 90s and the recent 'changes'.

You and I and some exes have been enough involved in all this to try to get together a nice picture. This is really lacking on EPO, and most of the premies don't have a broad picture of the story.

I enjoy your writings, even if I don't take part in the arguments....

I've been mad too, believe me, and for quite a long, very long, too long period of time. And I've directed that anger towards to wrong persons: everybody around me, including my cat, my clients, litterally everything. I guess this is part of the process ...

Oh, maybe you already know this ....

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Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 13:23:47 (GMT)
From: An ex-ashramer
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Another Diversion
Message:
I noticed that the connected ashram premies were able to set up their own businesses. I was left with less than nothing, thousands in debt.
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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 03:52:26 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: An ex-ashramer
Subject: Another Diversion
Message:

Runamok responded:
Do you know more about this?

What more can you volunteer about this?

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 04:55:49 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek™
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Runamok
Subject: Not wanting to argue, but...
Message:
Good topic.

I believe that the connected ashram premies made it because they were adept in the necessary networking and schmoozing skills that facilitates success in certain business ventures that depend upon placement rather than real knowledge, skills, and abilities.

I believe that some of the original ashram premies or followers were risk takers and, using a marketing industry term, were early adopters. Basically, these people might be intelligent risk taking schmoozers that had some kind of bankroll to allow them to take such risks as to not have to work and to be able to travel to India for extended periods of time. Also, another group might also be your balls-out hell-bent peddle to the metal types with nothing to lose.

And really with the privatization of the DLM/EV companies to avoid losing the tax-exempt status there were windfall opportunities for well-placed premies to take advantage of.

However, I do know of one ashram premie that had a fairly promenient position in one of the DLM Empire's business who became very pissed off when he didn't get any cut of the operation upon privatization.

Another question to ask is how many of the ashram premies who did well came from affluent familes? It was always my impression that at least 10% of the ashram premies were from affluent familes and while they were thumbing their noses at materialism I feel that they always knew that they could go back home to Mommy and Daddy and get setup in the family business. It was also my impression that those in charge and the big names, movers and shakers were also from upper-middle class families and above.

And there is always the exception like JW who came from Iowa.

Anybody else feel that way? Wasn't Sophia Collier, author of Soul Rush an example of such? Arthur Brigham? What was that guy's name one of the first four? Gary???

How about Joan Apter? Her resume shows her
attending a private college, Lawrence University in Wisconsin, which might indicate that she came from money.

and her vitae says:

has 23 years experience in organizational development, training, and keynote speaking. Her work has taken her to 26 countries worldwide.

Yes, her work has taken her to 26 countries. We know what that means. Training and keynote speaking, too.

and

Ms. Apter holds a Bachelor of Arts degree in Communication from Lawrence University in Wisconsin. Her postgraduate work has included courses in human resources, organizational development and creative thinking. She is fluent in French and Hindi and is the author of The Council Process Activity Guide (The Ojai Foundation Press, 1994).

The California town of Ojai is new age deluxe!

and

For seven years, Ms. Apter was the Regional Training Manager for Elan Vital, Inc., an international non-profit educational organization. Some of her other clients include Novotel Hotels, Coca Cola, AT&T Metropolitan Life Insurance Company, Pacific Bell, The Breakthrough Foundation, The Ojai Foundation, and a wide variety of educational and volunteer groups.

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 17:16:40 (GMT)
From: Sean
Email: seang2@earthlink.net
To: Roger eDrek™
Subject: Not wanting to argue, but...
Message:
There was defintely a class structure in DLM. Even in the early days, the movers and shakers were from the upper & upper middle. Those of us who weren't, always got sent to the basement to shovel coal. But they told us selfless service would bring us to M's love so much faster.
That was one of the reasons the big guys hated the Bliss Band (the second one) and sucked up to them at the same time. Damn musicians just didn't get the hierarchy. They wanted a picture of M onetime to put in their living room, so they went downtown to the office building and stole one. The premies chased them most of the way down Colfax (we lived on Race street).

Sean

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 22:35:58 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek™
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Sean
Subject: Sean! We need you!
Message:
Sean, excellent! Many thanks.

Please Sean, if you can, can you put together everything you know about the Denver scene? I find that subject to be very interesting. I lived there on and off myself, but left in 1975.

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Date: Sun, Jan 30, 2000 at 00:26:19 (GMT)
From: Sean
Email: seang2@earthlink.net
To: Roger eDrek™
Subject: Sean! We need you!
Message:
Like what? Neurotic premies sneaking off to have sex in a basement somewhere, ( terrified someone in power would find out).
I was there from '73 to '76. We had a house right in the middle of the Ashram district on Race street (20th & Race). I(we) shared it with the Bliss Band upstairs. I always left our front door open, even when I was at work. A few ashram premies used to come in and steal my tools (carpentry). They would come and hang out at night in our kitchen. That's when Raja Ji's little dicks used to sit outside and watch the house, because Raja ji thought we were subversive.

I was thinking today about the Co-op (the original one). Tons of food sitting in there and the alley out back filled with hungry homeless men trying to get warm in the middle of winter. I gave them some food and everyone freaked out. 'They're responsible for their plight, so we shouldn't share with them'. 'If Maharaji wanted them to have food He would provide for them'. 'How dare I take food from the mouths of premies to give to those losers' .And these were the people who were going to bring Peace to the world.

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Date: Sun, Jan 30, 2000 at 02:18:00 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek™
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Sean
Subject: Sean! We need you!
Message:
I find that the Denver Mega Community in the '70s to be fascinating. I mostly passed in and out a few times, but how many ashrams were that at one time?

Kitredge Bldg?

M's house on Dahlia St.

Any info you have would add to our history.

Was the Ashram or whatever on Race St. the one that went to be a stoned out premie house or am I confusing it with another one?

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Date: Sun, Jan 30, 2000 at 06:03:38 (GMT)
From: Sean
Email: seang2@earthlink.net
To: Roger eDrek™
Subject: Sean! We need you!
Message:
God there were a bunch of them then. There was the 'primary' one right off of Colfax. I guess there were probably 6 or 8 between Colfax and 21st. There were several more heading south on Race. On all the streets around there were premie houses. Some of them 'loose', some striving to be ashrams. There were a few on Gaylord and Vine. I lived for a short time in one off Broadway. My ex-wife lived in an ashram just off Broadway. There was a special one for the school and the teachers. Seems like the old Co-op was near Broadway, before they opened the store on Colfax.
There was one on Marion or Downing, I'm not sure anymore. That's where good ol Charles Cameron and I met Wallace Black Elk. There was a school nearby too (a public school) that was rented and we had like group therapy sessions and workgroups and stuff cause we were all so fucked up. M finally put a stop to that (it was just confusing us). We rented the American Indian Center for satsang once a week, but the Indians hated us cause the premies were so rude. When they were having ceremonies downstairs, the premies used to walk through and deliberately disrupt their stuff to show them how wrong they were not to be listening to satsang. I used to listen to them laugh and brag about it.
We rented the Center for the Blind too. Once I was 'rehearsing' for the Xmas play there-doing touchy feely exercises-and one of the premies let his touchy feely touch too much and threw a folding chair across the hall into one of their antique stained glass windows. Then he went over, picked up the chair and finished it off. Boy, he had a lot of inner peace. DLM had a hard time explaining that one. In the mornings, the 'house mothers' of the premie houses would hit the streets going through dumpsters looking for food to feed the premies in their houses. They got to know the best ones to look in for the freshest produce.

Ah, the memories.

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Date: Mon, Jan 31, 2000 at 18:42:57 (GMT)
From: cqg
Email: None
To: Sean
Subject: Sean! Do we need you!
Message:
'the 'house mothers' of the premie houses would hit the streets going through dumpsters looking for food to feed the premies in their houses.

They got to know the best ones to look in for the freshest produce.'
.
.
.
Such selflessness. Such devotion. Such ....

... such a pity.
.
.
.
.

To think it all helped pay for ... for ... well, who still profits out of all this?

Still, I guess we gave 'VOLUNTARILY', - so no regrets on that front (the brainwashing had nothing to do with it, of course)

But at least we can tell it like it was.

.
.
.
And how much has changed?

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Date: Mon, Jan 31, 2000 at 23:21:11 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: cqg
Subject: Sean! Do we need you!
Message:
A lot has changed. That is what is so insidious in a way.
It's all internalized. And so there is more to 'stew on'

most premies have careers, or at least some type of job. Or are taken care of by some means.
Not my dumpstre hunting last I saw.
So yeah a lot has changed and you are right now that I think about it, not much has changed. I cannot understand how someone can get into a prercorded video broadcast though. That one makes me think that the 'oldies' are really remember the old days. And projecting. And again, the last events I attended were made up primarily of the same people from ages ago. Even my die hard friend who received K in 72 commented on that, and also on how few of them were there. (97)

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Date: Tues, Feb 01, 2000 at 19:54:51 (GMT)
From: cqg
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: How few of who? (nt)
Message:

cqg responded:
How few of who?
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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 07:48:55 (GMT)
From: Hansa Bansa
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek™
Subject: Not wanting to argue, but...
Message:
Joan Apter is persona non grata at the Ojai Foundation for 'appropriating' certain key concepts/ideas and presenting them as her own.
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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 09:01:41 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek™
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Hansa Bansa
Subject: My Joanie, persona non grata?
Message:
Thanks!

Joan Apter is persona non grata at the Ojai Foundation for 'appropriating' certain key concepts/ideas and presenting them as her own

Were these ideas state secrets?
You can own and copyright ideas?

Ok, I guess I get it now. Maybe like new agey ideas that are like prescriptions for living a certain way or thinking or behaving a certain way in a new agey fashion, I assume. Ok, I think I'm getting a picture now.

So, the others at Ojai Foundation really had the credit for, shall we say, cooking up and Joan Apter is running around the country giving her $eminar$ or whatever and highlighting those ideas and claiming they were her high falooting ideas?

I am just plain old slow on this new agey stuff. I thought all I had to do was meditate and love and trust in Maharaji. I guess Joan doesn't just believe that any more. Wonder what Maharaji thinks about all that of new agey kind of stuff?

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 05:36:24 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek™
Subject: advantages of brown nosing
Message:
Hey Rog, I consider this a non-issue except that how I am describing this is more accusatory toward M'rage. Whatever you want to say about it is your biz, but due to a lack of compiled documentation (with a plethora of uncompiled documentation- and yes you have a tiny bit on your site), we can't speak definitively on the subject of how PAM's get connected when they leave the folds of daddy's ashram.

You think the big PAM's developed skills? Why, because they worked for 'an independent investor, inventor, musician, etc'?

How about because they brownnosed ad infinitum the Lord of a financial empire with all the resounding implications of influence in various business arenas?

Maybe if they had taken jobs with totalitarian regimes to work as a propagandists I could agree that they developed their skill set under M'rage. Yes, their particularly brand of dishonesty might help them in some business, but connect them? 'Well sir, they didn't pay me but they gave me room and board even if I couldn't have sex.' Salary wouldn't look to good on resumes, face it.

We've got a bit of work compiling the huge amount of ownership information on corporations related to M'rage. If you want to pretend the checks in the mail that's your biz.

If your reading this ex-ashramer, sounds like you had a terrible time of it.

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 07:08:24 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek™
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Runamok
Subject: advantages of brown nosing
Message:
Run,

Don't know exactly what you are saying, but let's work with this.

I believe that many successful people become successful because they are able to manipulate situations to their advantage. Basically, we're talking about manager types and consultants and people who can give speeches and get made money because they can somehow inspire people.

Their skill is the ability to manipulate other people and situations to their advantage. Or maybe it's really the ability to convince other people that they know more than they do along with an ability to somehow convince other lesser people that they are, indeed, leadership caliber.

It's everywhere. Sometimes it requires extensive study and specific subject area expert knowledge. However, sometimes not. Sometimes it's just a matter of having the commonsense and the guts to take charge.

Let's consider Donner and Jim's post where he details what Jim knows about Donner.

Jim says:

3) Donner told me he got involved in the book business a bit and basically pirated one large contract, just like Roger says. (Well, I told Roger, didn't I?). I did indeed get the impression that he made off like a bandit. I think this came up over dinner in the context of me asking him what he did (nothing ) and how we was able to retire so nicely. Over a bottle of wine he bragged a bit.

Ok, I don't know what year this act of piracy took place, but let's say it was early on in the history of Amtext or even before Amtext and it was some kind of cache of textbooks collected through jumbling at Universities or something like that. Remember the days of jumbling when all that junk was collected and stored somewhere. Well, most of us do not know what happened to it or who brokered it out.

So, let's say you're Donner and you're high enough in the organization to be a rogue agent floating around out there. You're visiting some po-dunk community with some half-wit community leader who somehow has this stash of books or something like that and you offer or suggest to negotiate the deal with bookbuyers and get the money to Maharaji. Or maybe not a po-dunk community and you're talking with the guy who has the idea for this book buying business in the first place. Is that the Amtext guy or the guy from Amtext who stole it from the original guy. Ask Pal Joey. Somehow or another Donner is able to convince the other guy that Donner is the guy to finesse the deal and get the money to Maharaji.

For starters, Donner's got a better suit than you and he looks and plays the part of somebody in charge. And because you only want to please Maharaji and aren't interested in careers or your own financial security you go along with Donner's plan to wheel the deal. Heck, he's like right up there with Maharaji, isn't he? He's probably fully realized.

Don't you remember how we idolized those people? At least, I did. They were saint-like do-no-wrong-heroes. They had power! We gave them power. We gave them carte blanche on everything. Little did we know. The common man loves super-heroes. It's almost our nature to elevate people to be leaders and extra special. We need that - almost.

So, Donner finds out who the big buyers are like Missouri Books or whomever and he starts wheeling and dealing. Somewhere there's a ton of expensive college textbooks with some costing like $5 to $20 a pound retail.

God, I'm a bad person. I was a poor grad school student and late in the semester I added a course. I went to the bookstore and picked up the $65 book and a few other things. I get to the checkout and put the book and everything on the counter. The clerk falsely assumes that I had carried the book into the store and asks me if I had already brought it in. I pause with the moral dilemma presented in front of me. Sixty-five bucks! Christ, that's a month's supply of beer or a pair of new shoes. Of course, I did the honest thing and paid for the book.

So, Donner deals with the book reseller or wholesaler and has them make the check out to him or whatever. Maybe Donner knows that he'd better send Maharaji a piece of the action or maybe not. It's not like Maharaji had any of the Big Five accounting firms auditing all the hinterland action now. I really think that all Maharaji cared and still cares about was whether he had enough money to throw around as he pleases. At that point in time I did not nor do I have the impression that Maharaji was a micro-manager. More or less the Company Visionary just as Bill Gates now is. And both sell vaporware.

And Donner splits the scene.

I suppose that if Donner reads this we can pretty much rule out his joining our club. But maybe not. Depends on whether we and he views the publicity of his action and whether people view him as a rebel hero or a scoundrel. For me, I'll vote rebel hero. The effort that the premies did in acquiring the books or assets is like a sunk cost where it's basically gone. It's gone one way or the other to either Maharaji or somebody else. If Maharaji got the short end of the deal I'd call the guy a hero with guts. But, it takes one to know and love one, says the scoundrel to the thief.

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 16:46:08 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: djrayovac@aol.com
To: Roger eDrek™
Subject: science vs conjecture
Message:
You're just imagining what may have happened, not making generalisations about what did.
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Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 03:31:28 (GMT)
From: Adnana
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Keep on truckin'
Message:
The master welcomes the disciples not because he wants to lead them, but because he has so much to share. Together, they create an energy field that supports each unique individual in finding his or her own light. If you can find such a master you are
blessed. If you cannot, keep on searching. Learn from the teachers, and the would-be masters, and move on.
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Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 03:53:40 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@tigerriver.com
To: Adnana
Subject: Truck-stop Gurus
Message:
The master welcomes the disciples not because he wants to lead them, but because he has so much to share.

Maharaji welcomes the disciples not because he has so much to share, but because he has so much. You just try keeping the lights burning in all those little lean-tos of his.

Which leads nicely into your next fortune cookie stuffer:
Together, they create an energy field that supports each unique individual in finding his or her own light.

If you can find such a master you are blessed.

More blessed is he who has found such a gullible disciple.

Learn from the teachers, and the would-be masters, and move on.

I'm sure we're all wiser for your having shared your would-be wisdom.

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Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 04:09:04 (GMT)
From: Adnana
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Truck-stop Gurus
Message:
This is not about con artists like maharaji, Baba Ji and the like. Question: Is there such a type of master that helps one to become a master? A teacher that teaches without trips? A guide at a reasonable fee? I wonder.....
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Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 14:53:54 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Adnana
Subject: Truck-stop Gurus
Message:
Adnana: Why do you 'think' that you need a teacher or a master? Who told you this? MASTERS AND TEACHERS, that's who! Kind of a self-serving bunch, no?

If we assume for a moment that what is 'inside' is yours, already, why would you need someone to 'give' it to you? What makes us think that it must be 'revealed?' What makes us think that the path to its revelation is 'hard and strewn with many rocks?' What makes us think that the mere 'knowing' of its existence isn't enough? MASTERS AND TEACHERS, that's WHO!

Masters and teachers are the only ones saying that we 'need' them! Don't you think this a bit odd?

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Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 17:52:01 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Mike
Subject: Who needs who?
Message:
Some thoughts on your final point, Mike, re. 'we need them'.

A sick person needs a doctor’s diagnosis just as a doctor needs sick people to diagnose - otherwise there is no such thing as a doctor. But the relationship is at least reciprocal and both the doctor’s qualifications and performance are verifiable as is the patient’s recovery. A patient failing to respond to treatment does not enhance a doctor’s reputation. Fake doctors get found out - and if a sugeon amputates the wrong leg the patient can sue for damages. The patient might also go on to study medicine and become a doctor.

A student needs a college lecturer just as a college lecturer needs students - otherwise there is no such thing as a lecturer. The relationship is at least reciprocal and both the lecturer’s qualifications and performance are verifiable as is the student’s academic progress. Bogus lecturer's get found and - and a student failing to progress does not enhance a lecturer’s reputation. A student can sue for reimbursement of fees if the course content is poorly delivered. A student may remain on the academic path and go on to become a lecturer.

Nobody needs a Master, but a Master needs disciples - otherwise there is no such thing as a Master.
The relationship is far from reciprocal: the Master’s qualifications are unknown, his performance unmeasurable and his ‘gift’ intangible. (Either Prempal or Satpal is a fake - but you cannot tell them apart from comparing their invisible gifts..!) The disciple’s donations and service, however, are readily converted into material goods for the Master. A disciple’s failure to progress is not laid at the door of the Master but attributed to the disciple’s own lack of effort. The disciple has subservient status for life and no refunds are given.

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 18:10:25 (GMT)
From: Lily
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Who needs who?
Message:
Nigel wrote:
Nobody needs a Master, but a Master needs disciples - otherwise there is no such thing as a Master.
The relationship is far from reciprocal: the Master’s qualifications are unknown, his performance unmeasurable and his ‘gift’ intangible.

Ah, but if the disciple believes in the value of having a teacher then for him/ her the teacher has value! The disciple will become disciplined (trains himself because of inner motivation) to live the way he perceives to be right according his/her own inner values and using or adapting the practices and discourses 'taught' by the 'master'. The disciple aspires to the qualities of the 'master' that he/she admires. The disciple will see what he/she aspires to see! It is a very personal relationship which can be very reciprocal. It is different for each person and no one from outside that relationship has the power or understanding to judge it!

Be it illusion or not...the value of the relationship is uniquely interpreted by each individual. The master does not have to be perfect, as judged by any criteria or critics which come from anywhere outside of the relationship between one individual and one master when they know themselves to be ONE! For his/her inner and most real self to be reflected, one is often helped by the holding of a mirror! You could be your own master...just look in the mirror with the attitude of love, openess and acceptance, and see what wisdom comes from your own heart!

It is mirrorly a personal decision whose face you wish to look into for inner knowledge and perfect love!

Respectfully, I enter this conversation and honor your evolving wisdom! Thankyou, Lily

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Date: Sun, Jan 30, 2000 at 21:37:04 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Lily
Subject: Give us a break...
Message:
Good of you to 'honour my evolving wisdom', Lily, but sorry, I already have all the wisdom I am likely to need. (The idea of being on a path of ever-increasing wisdom just part of the cult-taught delusion, as far as I am concerned.)

Anyway, you wrote:

Ah, but if the disciple believes in the value of having a teacher then for him/ her the teacher has value! The disciple will become disciplined (trains himself because of inner motivation) to live the way he perceives to be right according his/her own inner values and using or adapting the practices and discourses 'taught' by the 'master'. The disciple aspires to the qualities of the 'master' that he/she admires. The disciple will see what he/she aspires to see! It is a very personal relationship which can be very reciprocal. It is different for each person and no one from outside that relationship has the power or understanding to judge it!

By this argument you might say that no 'master' is ever accountable; their value lies in the perceptions of the devotee alone. No one else can understand, and no one else should judge. Is that what you are saying? If so, then you give them license to get away with anything. I mean, would this philosophy apply equally to all self-styled teachers and gurus? How about Marshall Applewhite, David Koresh, Jim Jones? I understand they all enjoyed very personal relationships with their grateful followers.

Also, is it not somewhat offensive to imply that an EX-follower of whichever master, who has been in that 'very personal relationship', as you put it, might not also have 'the power or understanding to judge it'?

If not, then you are saying the only legitmate judgement that may be made about the master comes from the practising devotee (and hence could never be less than adulatory).

No wonder these guys get rich.

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Date: Mon, Jan 31, 2000 at 18:55:46 (GMT)
From: cqg
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Give us a break...
Message:
Nige, you say: 'sorry, I already have all the wisdom I am likely to need'

Blimey. Bit strong.

Lily sounds sincere, at the very least, and the poor girl (forgive my non-p.c.ness) finds her first post shot down in flames by some a bloke who ends his post with: 'No wonder these guys get rich.'

I resent (to a certain degree) M's living on the (invested) proceeds of our misguided devotion too, but Lily sounds like she's being true to herself, even if it has kept her magnetised to M for ... who knows how long?

But we were there too, once, remember?

There is light at the other end of the post-darshan tunnel, and the road away from M isn't just full of bread-heads.

You can do better than this, Nigel.

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Date: Mon, Jan 31, 2000 at 22:23:56 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: cqg
Subject: Shot down in flames?
Message:
Hi cqg,

I am puzzled by the tone of your email. Isn't 'shot down in flames' overdoing it somewhat?

I didn't attack Lily personally - or I certainly didn't intend to. But I guess expressions like 'honour your evolving wisdom' do turn my stomach somewhat, and maybe I over-reacted to that one line. But to tell you the truth I am not sure what you or Lily mean by 'wisdom'. For me it means to have a pretty accurate understanding of the way the world works and in that sense of the word I think I have a good enough understanding to last me my remaining years on the planet. It was an honest comment. (I actually typed that sentence with a reasonably friendly tone of voice, but I guess that doesn't always come across...)

By the same token, you might say Lily's post to me was rather strong in that she claimed non-devotees had no right to judge any master (and by implication, I had no right to be posting as I had just done).

But it is a shame neither you nor Lily want to comment on the actual point I was making. I mean, don't you think Lily's argument is a licence for gurus to do anything they like? - including getting as rich as they like?

As I see it, it is precisely because of people like Lily's sincerity and willingness to see only the good in a teacher that unscrupulous masters get rich.

(was that any better..?)

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 18:20:10 (GMT)
From: Adnana
Email: None
To: Lily
Subject: You got it! ;-) Loveya (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 18:04:48 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Who needs who?
Message:
Nigel: Quite right! My point concerning masters was lost, to some degree. Supposedly, you already possess what they want to 'give' you. Hey, if I already possess it, why would I or should I go seeking a master to... ahem... 'give' it to me. That 'revealing' stuff is just a code-word for 'I gave it to you,' no matter how they try to hide that intent. Not only that, who says that it just MUST be revealed or you will never find it: MASTERS, that's who!

Not so in the case of doctors, lecturers and others. In fact, most 'discoveries' were made by people that just happened to be the first to notice it. They all admit, even Einstein, that it was just a matter of time before someone figured it out. Sure, they can, rightly, bask in the glow of their discoveries, but I've never heard a single one say that no one would have ever discovered it without them (unlike 'masters' who set themselves up to be the ONLY way to enlightenment.... again, out of their own mouths).

Additionally, you are quite correct concerning measurable nature of their results, as well. You just said it a bit better than I :-)

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 18:24:45 (GMT)
From: Lily
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Who needs who?
Message:
I recall that your master said (in many stories) that the Knowledge is in you. It's under your own pillow when you have been searching everywhere for it but right there whaer you lay your head. Also, he said he could not charge you for something you already had! It was in your own pocket! Only you foolish ones who have rejected that truth of your inner nature and ignored or built walls around your treasure, now think your former master a fraud and salesman of tarnished gold. He still just offers a few simple techniques to only those who want them and ask for them of a way to calm the mind and find the treasure. He does not control anyone. We were born with the gift of free will. You disrespect your or anyone else's integrity and discretion when you hold onto the belief that you have no control over what happens to you. Everyone makes mistakes. Learn from them and move onto a more self-directed life. If you regret your decision to act like a sheep: learn from it, let it go and act like a man/woman.
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Date: Sun, Jan 30, 2000 at 18:00:47 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Lily
Subject: You are wrong, Lily
Message:
Lily: MY master, at the time, told me I had to submit totally! My master, at the time, said I had to surrender, totally! My master, at the time, said that I had to give my EVERYTHING! I had to be willing to 'cut my head off' (that's a quote, Lily!) to just receive the K techniques! How 'bout you?

I don't know who YOUR master was, but mine insisted upon us giving HIM EVERYTHING..... just to get K you had to jump through hoops that were unbelievable!!!!!

I will say that after jumping through all of those hoops, just to be able to be in the presence of a mahatma, much less M himself, I learned a little something about myself. I learned that I COULD DO anything! I learned that, when I put my MIND to it, I could DO ANYTHING! (and those that know me, like many of the ex's here, know what 'ANYTHING' means!) I was willing to sacrifice my life (and was put in that position on several occasions during my life) for my teammates and my country. It's just unfortunate that I learned that, about myself, from dealings with a FRAUD!

He's NOT and NEVER WAS the lord of the universe. He doesn't speak for the lord of the universe and, I'd wager, he doesn't even believe in the lord of the universe or he would not have been so bold as to allow others to call him that....

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 18:39:21 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Lily
Subject: Tell us about yourself, please
Message:
Lily,

Before I attempt to engage you in more detailed conversation, could I ask you to give a little information about yourself. You seem critical about us former followers of Maharaji contributing here, so it seems only fair for you to let us know where you're coming from.

Are you or were you a follower of Maharaji?

If so, what is your view of him now?

John.

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 19:17:53 (GMT)
From: Lily
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Tell us about yourself, please
Message:
Please, I wish to remain anonymous. I have had many teachers including maharaji. No one person outside yourself is the perfect teacher for you. Life is the great teacher of us all. I have learned to take what things of value to me that I got from my association with teachers of all kinds, and I also try to share my own experiences and beliefs with the truely few people who are willing to discuss such things with openess!

The way I feel now about maharaji is that despite all outward appearances, many of which that you expose and ridicule here, he is doing more good than harm for both those who decide to explore his teachings or do his meditation techniques and for the greater world. There are so many people in the world who are doing truely horrible things to people through their power and greed and warfare and ignorance. Those people who even care to look for a teacher or practice any meditation are people who are much less likely to be involved in the dark side of ourselves who dwell in fear and hate and cause much injury to others.

The 'horrible' conditions and sacrifices spoken of here when people were in ashrams are very small in comparison to the troubles of the majority of the people of this world. I have some personal experience with very difficult life experiences which also seem small in comparison to many others.

I do what I can to help others less fortunate than myself and I continually am thankful for the material comfort and safety I feel in my life, and to have the capacity to understand why many people do the things that they do. I feel we must both help ourselves and to help others and to try to enjoy our life while we can.
Lily

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Date: Sun, Jan 30, 2000 at 00:09:07 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: heller@bc1.com
To: Lily
Subject: Bad reasoning, Lilly
Message:
The way I feel now about maharaji is that despite all outward appearances, many of which that you expose and ridicule here, he is doing more good than harm for both those who decide to explore his teachings or do his meditation techniques and for the greater world.

His teachings, themselves, were and are toxic. Forget about the nice buzz you can get from meditating and the soft-focus dream of some sort of spiritual fulfillment as a result of following this creep. Maharaji used to teach that the mind was evil. Now he just tries to benumb it. He caused a lot of people to go mad and some to even kill themselves. (How many of the latter, by the way, would you say constitute a significant number? I'm of the view that one's too many, especially if he was wrong on the facts, i.e. he's not the Lord of the Universe.) He wasted time and destroyed countless families and relationships. And how? By saying shit like this:

I have come so powerful. I have come for the world. Whenever the great come,the worldly oppose them. Again I have come and you are not listening. Every ear should hear that the saviour of humanity has come. There should be no chance for anyone to say that they haven't heard of Guru Maharaj Ji. Those who have come to me are already saved. Now its your duty to save others. Shout it on the streets. Why be shy?

That got us going.

And:

He enslaved those of us too gullible to call his bluff and actually doubt him contrary to his most explicit Commandment, Never Leave Room for Doubt in Your Mind. Once he had us, he grinded us:

There is nothing much to say except that you have a duty to perform by Guru Maharaj Ji's agya. You have an agya to fulfill before you that there is no escape from -- unless you want to escape the truth, the realism of this life, that devotion.

If you have any questions about your duty, about your service, that pertain to me, ask me. If you don't, that autmoatically means that you are going to go out and hold the responsibility of the duty that has been assigned to you. Right? I mean, do I make myself clear? Yes?

And all along, as I say, he tricked us into thinking we were walking this treacherous catwalk high above the sulphorous pit of our minds:

So premies, if we really look for a second into our hearts, truly within our hearts, and not fake ourselves out, we will find that one of the major problems that we have is our own mind. Our mind has become such a part of us, and it is a problem; it is that thing that has been creating so much mischief within inside of us. Therefore, we always need to keep that mind quiet, to keep that mind shut, to keep that mind out of the way.

To give in to it, after all, was tantamount to 'spiritual' suicide:

if we really don’t realize the necessity of knowledge in our life, then we are not going to even try. We’re not even going to try to gain that experience that Knowledge has to give us. That use becomes obsolete. That Knowledge itself then starts becoming obsolete in our life.
And then, as you must have heard in my satsang, vegetable are very nice things. We eat them every day. But if you bring tons and tons of vegetables in your house and don’t eat them, they will rot. And when they rot, they won’t be very healthy, and they will just smell bad.
And Knowledge is the same way. It’s beautiful. But you have to utilize it. If you let it sit, it’s just going to start deteriorating inside of you. It’s like, we have something so precious, and we are not using it. And that experience is just going to start becoming worse and worse and worse.


or:

Because without Guru Maharaj Ji, everything just deteriorates in our lives. And it's like, maybe to some people that's like, 'Well, nothing has deteriorated in my life yet.' And yet we have to understand that for those people it is deteriorating, and that we have to come to that one conclusion in our own hearts.'

or:

You know, you have to imagine, you ahve to always comepensate for the fact that you are travelling at about 550 miles an hour. So you are travelling, you know. And yet, your fate is going to be very fatal, because you have not let go. You have not surrendered. I mean, it would be ideal if you would be travelling that fast and you had surrendered. It would be fantastic, it would be beautiful. But the thing is -- it's really nice to travel that fast, but if you have not surrendered yourself, then it's very, very, very fatal. Because -- well, you might end up at the wrong place at the wrong time, very, very soon.

His 'teachings' are poison.

There are so many people in the world who are doing truely horrible things to people through their power and greed and warfare and ignorance. Those people who even care to look for a teacher or practice any meditation are people who are much less likely to be involved in the dark side of ourselves who dwell in fear and hate and cause much injury to others.

The 'horrible' conditions and sacrifices spoken of here when people were in ashrams are very small in comparison to the troubles of the majority of the people of this world. I have some personal experience with very difficult life experiences which also seem small in comparison to many others.

Completely beside the point, Lily. On your reasoning, any plaintiff in small claims court should expect to see their lawsuit tossed out on the basis that it's trifling compared to some of the 'really serious stuff' happening in the higher courts. Maybe you're right and Maharaji's not the worst of the worst. So what? He's the only cult leader that ever stole my trust, time and money. He's the one I care about.

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 19:53:47 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Lily
Subject: Tell us about yourself, please
Message:
Lily,

Your anonymity is fine by me, and I'm glad you're not hooked on Maharaji. May I just challenge one thing you said?

The way I feel now about maharaji is that despite all outward appearances, many of which that you expose and ridicule here, he is doing more good than harm for both those who decide to explore his teachings or do his meditation techniques and for the greater world.

His current process of preparing new aspirants stresses the importance of the relationship with Maharaji. Now you and I know that Maharaji is not essential to the process of learning, but Maharaji will not reveal the meditiation techniques until he's got the aspirant brainwashed (a strong word, but I believe reasonably accurate). And then the requests for money start. Oh, they're subtle at first, but they are there. Maharaji and his mouthpieces say you should participate. But how? Almost all the old avenues for 'service' are gone. A few people help set up programs but what else is there? And it's then made clear with the glossy leaflets and letters inviting donations.

So how can a sincere person with knowledge express their gratitude and participate? There's only one way, and that's to give money.

There are so many people in the world who are doing truely horrible things to people through their power and greed......

There sure are:-)

John.

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 18:31:27 (GMT)
From: Adnana
Email: None
To: Lily
Subject: Oops! I take that back!
Message:
Lighten up, Lily, please. Go take a look at Jean-Michaels thread on a good read, posted today.
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Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 19:11:20 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Who needs who?
Message:
Hi Mike: In case I gave any other impression, I was endorsing your point entirely! Yeah, it's ironic that the only REAL need that anyone has in the whole caper is the Lord of the Unicorns' need to foster an illusory need in others.

I mean, suppose a 'Living Perfect Master' declared himself to the planet and nobody took the blindest bit of notice. I mean, imagine it was your next-door neighbour - and he carried on insisting the whole world focus on, and worship him. Not only would he have no-one to preach to or to dig his garden but he'd be sectioned and dosed up with lithium before you could say barefaced messiah...

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Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 19:25:06 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: BWAH HA HA HA HA
Message:
Thanks, Nigel.... I NEEDED that! You brought tears to my eyes with that one!!!! Owwwwww, my stomach muscles hurt and I can't stop laughing...... Ohhhh, man........ BWAH HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!
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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 01:14:26 (GMT)
From: Adnana
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Great laugh!
Message:
Did you read the whole thread yet?
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Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 04:20:37 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@tigerriver.com
To: Adnana
Subject: Truck-stop Gurus
Message:
This is not about con artists like maharaji, Baba Ji and the like. Question: Is there such a type of master that helps one to become a master? A teacher that teaches without trips?

If you don't know the answer to that, then how can you label this or that one a 'con artist'?

The minute you entertain the idea that a person is a 'teacher' you empower them to con you. There are many people alive who could acurately be labeled as 'learners', but there are none who are teachers.

Everyone starts out peeing on themselves as babies. They end up that way again as they get older. To pretend that some are born with an inate wisdom, and the ability to impart it to those lesser-born, is to set yourself up to be disappointed as you guru-hop through life.

When you seem to learn from others in life, you are actually only learning from your own experiences.

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Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 04:51:58 (GMT)
From: Adnana
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Truck garden Gurus
Message:
When you seem to learn from others in life, you are actually only learning from your own experiences. and The minute you entertain the idea that a person is a 'teacher' you empower them to con you. There are many people alive who could acurately be labeled as 'learners', but there are none who are teachers.

Were we born knowing how to read and write? Did you know what a chord was when you first picked up a guitar? Do not undervalue the need for teachers. Without someone to teach us would we learn to wipe out butts? :-) The best teachers are really 'showers'. They show us how to learn.
]]]]

If you don't know the answer to that, then how can you label this or that one a 'con artist'?

Does a child know when someone is being phony and should not be trusted? Don't we know when we have been ill used or ripped off?

]]]]
No, do not guru hop. I learned love from being loved and hate from being hated. I learned compassion and charity from the compassionate and charitable. I learned cruelty from the cruel. And, beauty, ah, I learned beauty from observing beauty.

We are born toothless and if we live long enough we die toothless. I learned to smile from the toothless...:-)

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Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 05:55:35 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@tigerriver.com
To: Adnana
Subject: Truck garden Gurus
Message:
The best teachers are really 'showers'. They show us how to learn.

That's right. People who have learned to do something in life do it. Those who haven't learned it yet observe and practice until they can reproduce the result.

Reading or guitar playing are prime examples. I watched how someone else made a chord on the guitar, but I had to learn to work my own fingers myself. My hands had to develop strength in the process. Nobody else 'taught' them to do that. I made the corrections based on the sound of the result.

When I was 'taught' to read, I was exposed to characters and told what sounds they represented. But I learned to connect and retrieve the information myself. Eventually, I learned to skip over the sounding out process and go right to the word.

I'm not saying that seeing what others are doing isn't part of the learning process. My objection to branding certain people as being 'teachers' is that it causes us to bestow powers on them beyond that of having once learned themselves how to do something.

Maharaji has never 'realized' Knowledge, yet he's still being viewed by his 'students' as a teacher who can impart it to lesser beings. Because of the sense of the mystical that surrounds the label, he's also credited with whatever people experience internally as a result of practicing meditation on their own.

He extracts a promise from his 'students' that they not share what he's 'taught' with others. The idea being that they are not 'teachers' like he is. They are something less, and only a 'teacher' like himself is able to responsibly dispense 'Knowledge'. So they meditate under sheets, so that nobody can see the 'secret' techniques.

But his claim is pure crap. The lie goes undiscovered because the 'students' comply with the Master's instructions not to find out differently on their own.

As for whether you guru-hop, that's not something that I would know. What I was trying to say (whether I wandered off from my point is possible) is that the belief that people can be taught by 'spiritual masters' (and that there ARE spiritual masters) leads them to hop from one to another after they find that their 'teacher' is just a mere mortal. Rather than draw the conclusion that we're all alike, they go off searching for a 'true' or 'truer' teacher.

It's like the belief held by the love-struck young who have never been in a relationship that there is a 'perfect' person out there for them. They only have to find the one. Then they'll be happy, etc. So they leave workable relationships in search of ideal ones that just do not exist.

The answer to your question as to where teachers learn to teach, and masters learn to master, is that people are natural learners - not natural teachers. We only appear to 'teach' what people see us practice and decide on their own to learn to duplicate.

The only reason why there are not more people out there revealing Knowledge to others is that most of Maharaji's 'students' view themselves as less than him in some divine station in life. So they never show what they've learned to those who are willing and wanting to learn. Instead they refer others to a 'competent teacher' - Maharaji.

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Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 06:34:11 (GMT)
From: Adnana
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Truck garden Gurus
Message:
The very best teachers I had were the ones who welcomed me into thier world of knowledge and learning. They rejoiced when I thought for myself. They enjoyed assisting my own learning process. They delighted when I advanced ahead of thier teaching!

The very worst teachers I had found smug satisfaction in proving me unworthy and incapable. They held themselves so far above me that no matter how far I advanced, I could never reach thier hights. No matter how much I gave, it was never enough. They delighted in labels not in learning.

What kind of 'master' or 'teacher' is maharaji? Let each of us decide for ourselves. For, that is what we will do no matter what anyone says or whatever proof is offered of maharaji's phoniness. As for me, I'll just say no thanks to maharaji. He has nothing to offer.

-----

We often speak of knowledge with a capital K. Or, we feel some silly gratitude to maharaji for showing us knowledge. This maharaji promised to show us god, did he not? What he showed us were nothing more than meditation techniques. Techniques that could be found in a book or from any other guru/master type 'teacher'.:-) So, who 'saw god'? That is for each of us to decide. ;-)

If I were to start my own religion to show people god, I would say oh just look into a mirror! OK - now go look into the eyes of a stranger. OK - now look at a rock. OK - see god? No? Too bad, no refunds! ;-)

Hee Hee Ha Hah!

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Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 07:45:41 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@tigerriver.com
To: Adnana
Subject: Truck garden Gurus
Message:
Your description of the good teachers that you've had in your life is heartening. I never had those, or at least was never exposed to them on a personal level allowing me to come away knowing it. So it's good to know that there are people who feel as you do, and whose feeling is based on having had that in their life.

As you can see, the term 'teacher' causes a strong reaction from me. I don't feel that I've had anyone in my life in that capacity. Instead, I feel that wanting and searching for something that I hadn't had was one of the reasons I was so willing to buy into Maharaji. It's not like I could compare him to someone who actually assisted learning on the level that you've described.

Maybe my perception is rarer than I want to conceed, and my experience wasn't the 'norm' for those who got involved.

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 01:44:51 (GMT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Backhoe Gurus
Message:
Brian,
People look to Maharaji to fill all kinds of holes in them. I know for me it was a desire to be accepted for myself, to fit in with a group and the lure of having a 'living' belief system. Not to mention this was supposed to be THE knowledge--ya know? The ultimate thing of all things! What all humans long for, but I digress.

Church was dead to me long ago and this was JUST what I was looking for, or so I thought. Anyway, I think your experience wasn't that out of the norm in that we were probably all looking for something.

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 02:38:49 (GMT)
From: Adnana
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Backhoe Gurus
Message:
You wrote:
Church was dead to me long ago and this was JUST what I was
looking for, or so I thought. Anyway, I think your experience
wasn't that out of the norm in that we were probably all looking
for something.

That's where I was 26 years ago when I found Guru Maharaji Self Proclaimed Low Rider of Everything---- What a rip. Off.

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Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 03:45:56 (GMT)
From: Hot Tuna
Email: None
To: Adnana
Subject: Keep on truckin'
Message:
I suppose there is a type of relationship but in the animal kingdom it would be what? One where one feeds off the other
with no chance of the feeder voluntarily setting the
'food' free.
At no point can you graduate from the 'master' can you.
It is a path that is not clear enough to ever get the idea
that you are achieving the result that the 'master'
told you to 'inch' towards.
bb
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Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 05:42:21 (GMT)
From: Jack
Email: None
To: Adnana
Subject: Keep on truckin'
Message:
How can we graduate from a guru if we make him our Alpha & Omega. I know that's what I did with M. And that's exactly what he wanted me to do. I appreciate your post by the way.

Jack

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Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 05:44:56 (GMT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Jack
Subject: Are you the same Jack?
Message:
Jack,
Are you Jim Heller's friend from Victoria? The one who called me the Malboro Man?
VP
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Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 05:48:20 (GMT)
From: Jack
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Are you the same Jack?
Message:
No but I think I know that Jack.

Jack

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Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 12:35:04 (GMT)
From: HT
Email: None
To: Jack
Subject: Are you the same Jack?
Message:
Ifigured you were Jack as in Jack Cassidy of HOt Tuna
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