stonor -:- A moral question for Deputy Dog -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 00:57:01 (GMT)

__ Deputy Dog -:- ***A moral question for Deputy Dog*** -:- Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 04:02:48 (GMT)

__ Deputy Dog -:- A moral question for Deputy Dog -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 14:27:40 (GMT)

__ __ stonor -:- A moral question for Deputy Dog -:- Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 10:08:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- A moral question for Deputy Dog -:- Thurs, Feb 24, 2000 at 04:05:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Look what happens to premies, eh Dog? -:- Thurs, Feb 24, 2000 at 23:23:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Look what happens to premies, eh Dog? -:- Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 02:59:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- How did you ever get so fucking superficial? -:- Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 16:53:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Yeah, gosh darn that fiendish Scientology! -:- Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 17:28:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Your defense of Scientology is STUPIDO!!!!!!! -:- Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 23:59:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ stonor -:- A moral question for Deputy Dog -:- Thurs, Feb 24, 2000 at 20:29:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Well fuckin' said Stonor nt -:- Thurs, Feb 24, 2000 at 20:37:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ cqg -:- future? quote:'it's probably better than mine'(nt) -:- Thurs, Feb 24, 2000 at 18:55:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ JHB -:- A moral question for Deputy Dog -:- Thurs, Feb 24, 2000 at 11:43:12 (GMT)

__ __ Hal -:- A flippant question for Dep -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 15:22:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- A flippant question for Dep -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 18:56:07 (GMT)

__ mir -:- A moral question -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 06:57:58 (GMT)

__ __ G -:- A moral question -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 15:59:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ Hal -:- Thanks G -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 19:26:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ mir -:- A moral question -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 18:02:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Mike -:- Wrong, mir! -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 23:17:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ mir -:- I can't argue with such incisive points Mike (nt) -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 23:41:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- You're right, you can't and you shouldn't -:- Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 15:37:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- Quite (nt) -:- Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 19:15:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ G -:- A moral question -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 20:48:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ mir -:- A moral question -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 21:23:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- The ashram -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 22:18:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ mir -:- The ashram -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 23:38:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Maharaji said he has made mistakes -:- Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 17:26:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Anon -:- The ashram -:- Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 00:01:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- really excellent post -:- Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 07:15:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Maybe premies should take over teaching K -:- Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 03:33:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- But what is there to teach? -:- Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 16:56:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- But what is there to teach? -:- Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 21:53:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ miroire -:- The ashram -:- Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 01:58:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Steve -:- The ashram -:- Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 01:34:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Sure, mir, anything you say -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 18:20:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ mir -:- OK mister scientist -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 18:51:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- OK Mir, mister scientist -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 19:55:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- OK Mir, mister scientist: Can you answer my ... -:- Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 17:11:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ mir -:- A slight correction SB -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 20:31:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cqg -:- correction did you say? -:- Wed, Feb 23, 2000 at 20:14:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Is not a competence: A fake guru is a fake guru -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 22:06:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ mir -:- We're chasing our tails SB -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 22:11:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- You tell me and we'll both know. (nt) -:- Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 00:33:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- A slight correction SB -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 21:59:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ mir -:- Sure SB, whatever... -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 22:17:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Get serious -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 21:05:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ mir -:- No laughing matter Jerry -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 21:26:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Right -:- Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 01:06:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Enjoying your freedom to express? n.t -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 20:38:30 (GMT)

__ __ Hal -:- A moral question -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 07:43:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ mir -:- A moral question -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 18:45:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Helen -:- The inner landscape, my ass -:- Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 01:57:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ mirror -:- Yes Helen, there really is an inner landscape -:- Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 02:38:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Yes Helen, there really is an inner landscape -:- Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 19:44:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- the degradation of M -:- Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 18:23:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- the degradation of M -:- Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 21:30:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- to be fair -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 04:25:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ KMDARLING -:- the degradation of M: YOU GO GIRL! -:- Wed, Feb 23, 2000 at 22:03:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- What arrogance! -:- Thurs, Feb 24, 2000 at 01:33:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ KMDARLING -:- What arrogance! -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 03:14:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- the degradation of M: YOU GO GIRL! -:- Thurs, Feb 24, 2000 at 00:27:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ cqg -:- the degradation of M - GREAT POST! Thanks (nt) -:- Wed, Feb 23, 2000 at 20:37:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Hal -:- A moral question -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 20:28:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ mir -:- A moral question -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 20:41:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- A moral question -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 20:50:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ mir -:- A moral question -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 21:33:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- A moral question -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 23:04:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ mirror -:- A moral question -:- Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 01:35:14 (GMT)

stonor -:- a non-premie's confusion -:- Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 23:59:48 (GMT)

__ corvuscorax -:- a non-premie's confusion -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 00:19:40 (GMT)

__ __ Jim -:- Practise what you preach, Jamie -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 01:38:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ corvuscorax -:- I thought i were? -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 15:33:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ Such a -:- silly little man -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 06:04:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ Mr D -:- You're a cult leader, Jim -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 02:57:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ corvuscorax -:- You're a cult leader, Jim -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 15:38:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Mu -:- You're a cult, Jim the leader! -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 03:07:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- to stonor -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 06:34:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jack -:- What do you do in Portugal? (ot) -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 18:34:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- What do you do in Portugal? (ot) -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 20:03:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- I'm there! -:- Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 03:06:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- I'm there! -:- Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 07:30:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- I'm there! -:- Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 15:33:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jack -:- Sound like 'Beach' the movie to me! (ot) -:- Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 03:04:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Sound like 'Beach' the movie to me! (ot) -:- Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 07:53:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jackie -:- Sound like 'Beach' the movie to me! (ot) -:- Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 21:36:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Sound like 'Beach' the movie to me! (ot) -:- Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 23:21:32 (GMT)

__ __ stonor -:- a non-premie's confusion -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 00:39:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ corvuscorax -:- a non-premie's confusion -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 15:46:51 (GMT)

Haldor -:- Where the hell is everyone -:- Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 18:58:18 (GMT)

__ Mike -:- Not unless M likes to hike :-) -:- Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 22:35:41 (GMT)

__ __ Hal -:- Not unless M likes to hike :-) -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 06:10:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ AJW -:- Look straight ahead nothing but blue skies... -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 14:19:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ cqg -:- I can see all obstacles in my wh..aaaaaaaaaayy(nt) -:- Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 21:13:58 (GMT)

__ Robyn -:- Where the hell is everyone -:- Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 19:05:37 (GMT)

__ __ Hal -:- Where the hell is everyone -:- Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 19:15:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ Robyn -:- Where the hell is everyone -:- Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 19:30:21 (GMT)

__ Jack -:- Where the hell is everyone -:- Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 19:03:37 (GMT)

__ __ Hal -:- Where the hell is everyone -:- Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 19:18:04 (GMT)

selfpretence -:- selfpretense -:- Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 12:46:47 (GMT)

__ Hal -:- Prize for the most impossible thread ?n.t. -:- Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 13:26:49 (GMT)

Hal -:- service -:- Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 11:19:32 (GMT)

__ Djuro -:- service -:- Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 16:41:34 (GMT)

__ __ Hal -:- Thank God I am missing nt -:- Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 23:34:26 (GMT)

__ Fred -:- service -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 07:40:09 (GMT)

__ __ Jack -:- Are you in my community? -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 18:24:26 (GMT)

__ an ex-Ex -:- service -:- Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 22:58:35 (GMT)

__ __ Hal -:- service -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 07:24:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ ex-Ex -:- service -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 22:57:48 (GMT)

__ __ chris -:- service (ex-Ex) -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 01:33:48 (GMT)

__ __ SB -:- Doesn't look like it -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 00:54:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ Amari -:- Doesn't look like it -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 01:17:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ SB -:- Doesn't look like it -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 01:30:23 (GMT)

__ __ stonor -:- service -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 00:11:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- What the fuck do you know about any of this? -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 01:31:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ stonor -:- no need to get abusive Jim -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 01:38:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- what? -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 01:41:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ stonor -:- attempted reply to: what? -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 02:14:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- attempted reply to: what? -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 15:17:47 (GMT)

__ Dave -:- service -:- Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 12:22:45 (GMT)

Mu -:- At last - enlightenment for the masses! -:- Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 04:03:25 (GMT)

__ cqg -:- At last - enlightenment for the masses! -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 21:26:46 (GMT)

__ __ Mu -:- No refunds, I'm sure. (nt) -:- Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 05:16:45 (GMT)

__ Deputy Dog -:- Enlightenment for the masses? -:- Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 05:35:42 (GMT)

__ Hal -:- At last - enlightenment for the masses! -:- Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 05:05:49 (GMT)

__ __ Mu -:- At last - enlightenment for the masses! -:- Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 07:13:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Mu, you use them first! (nt) -:- Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 19:18:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ Angry -:- Travolta -:- Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 13:50:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Travolta -:- Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 17:28:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ king of URK?make that URL -:- Travolta -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 21:29:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Travolta -:- Thurs, Feb 24, 2000 at 22:35:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ JB -:- Travolta/ Scientology big time (nt) -:- Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 16:31:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jack -:- Travolta/ Scientology big time (nt) -:- Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 18:57:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jack -:- Battlship Earth and Scientology (see prev.post) -:- Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 19:00:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mu -:- Battlship Earth and Scientology (see prev.post) -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 02:27:24 (GMT)

Brian -:- New Journey -:- Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 03:32:46 (GMT)

__ Joey -:- Thanks Tom, but you've got me wonderin.... -:- Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 04:25:18 (GMT)

__ __ Brian -:- Light -:- Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 05:58:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ JB -:- Light/ Don't forget Quackers.Org (nt) -:- Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 16:36:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ Hal -:- Light -:- Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 09:19:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Mr D (unenlightened) -:- Prefering the darkness -:- Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 12:16:24 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Prefering the darkness -:- Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 13:36:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ cqg -:- As 'the Proclaimers' once sang: -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 20:10:16 (GMT)

Jim -:- Wanted: Early 70's Knowledge Packet -:- Sat, Feb 19, 2000 at 23:31:21 (GMT)

__ Archive Goblin -:- Wanted: Early 70's Knowledge Packet -:- Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 13:30:32 (GMT)

__ __ cqg -:- So this is what got us hooked? *!*!*!BEST OF*!*!* -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 21:43:10 (GMT)

__ __ Jim -:- QUESTION FOR DEPUTY DOG -:- Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 19:17:47 (GMT)

__ __ Jack -:- F....ing Unbelievable! -:- Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 19:14:51 (GMT)

__ __ Jean-Michel -:- the archive keeper: Get it together -:- Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 13:55:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ Archive Goblin -:- the archive keeper: Get it together -:- Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 18:07:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- The Vow and Commandments -:- Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 20:43:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ cqg -:- 'We are not talking about Satanism here, are we?' -:- Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 20:30:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Powerman -:- Dog and Jim -:- Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 21:54:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Dog and Jim -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 14:14:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- That was both wrong and off-topic, Dog -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 17:30:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Powerman -:- Dog and Jim -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 17:26:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- P-Man: Dog and Jim -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 18:59:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Powerman -:- P-Man: Dog and Jim -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 21:25:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cqg -:- P-Man: Dog and Jim -:- Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 20:39:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- That was fun! nt -:- Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 22:33:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- The Vow and Commandments -:- Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 21:48:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- The Vow and Commandments - Servant -:- Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 22:00:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- What a fucking, lame, bullshit answer - try again? -:- Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 22:15:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- I never received that letter! -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 14:02:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Bullshit, Dog -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 17:41:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Watch it, Jim! -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 18:18:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Coem back when you're more open -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 18:22:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Coem back when you're more open -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 19:08:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Powerman -:- Coem back when you're more open -:- Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 21:43:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Coem back when you're more open -:- Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 04:50:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Archive Goblin -:- That vow -:- Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 18:10:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ Angry -:- the archive keeper: Get it together/ also THE VOW -:- Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 14:01:28 (GMT)

__ Powerman -:- Wanted: Early 70's Knowledge Packet -:- Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 06:19:35 (GMT)

__ michael -:- Wanted: Early 70's Knowledge Packet -:- Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 03:00:37 (GMT)

Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 00:57:01 (GMT) From: stonor Email: None To: Everyone Subject: A moral question for Deputy Dog Message:

(This is basically the same as ' a non-premies confusion' - realized I should post this more clearly.) I came to this site today to try to better understand an e-mail friend who has contradicted himself a number of times in regards to his current status with Maharaji, as well as in many other areas. He has sent me a couple of Maharaji sites - but not this one. I have ultimately found that our dialogue has become quite disturbing in a number of specific ways. I am writing to you, Deputy Dog, for three reasons: -your name rang a bell - I believe that you know this individual in some way -you appear to me to be a sincere seeker of Truth, and show that through the diversity of your readings -the synchronicity of the above How do you (or anyone else) feel about possible spiritual misrepresentation and friendships used to deceive and manipulate the vulnerable for selfish personal desires.

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Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 04:02:48 (GMT) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: stonor Subject: ***A moral question for Deputy Dog*** Message:

Stonor, You asked me, How do you (or anyone else) feel about possible spiritual misrepresentation and friendships used to deceive and manipulate the vulnerable for selfish personal desires. I didn't answer your question because I thought it was rhetorical. What kind of an idiot would say, 'Yeah, I'm all in favour of using spiritual misrepresentation and friendships to deceive and manipulate vulnerable people for selfish desires.' That's why I didn't answer your question, because it's a stupid one. I am for spiritual practises that free people. Keep looking until you find one you like. (And I know you didn't ask me if you should keep looking.) -- Dep

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 14:27:40 (GMT) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: stonor Subject: A moral question for Deputy Dog Message:

stoner, An old friend of mine named Jim Morrison used to advise people to break on through to the other side. The mind can be trained and manipulated, the heart is free and helpful and pure. Do your best to live in the heart state. Knowledge can take you there. To thine own Self be true. Think for yourself. Pray if you want to. Trust your hunches. Follow your intuition. Get Knowledge, and then if you like it fine, if you don't like it fine. It's not like getting a lobotomy despite what you may hear on this site. If there is any significance to your name, you don't need drugs to get there. -- Dep

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Date: Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 10:08:35 (GMT) From: stonor Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: A moral question for Deputy Dog Message:

Greetings Deputy Dog, Although you never answered my question, and I did not ask for your advice, your response, although brief, is quite informative. Perhaps a key problem with getting 'K'nowledge as described by Maharaji, is that it is so 'absolute' and exclusively shaped and controlled by him. This is dogma, as much as, if not much more so, than in most mainstream religious organizations today. Another would be the recruiting approach: ' The mind can be trained and manipulated, the heart is free and helpful and pure. Do your best to live in the heart state.' Please read your words carefully. Do they not tell me that I should turn off my easily 'trained and manipulated mind' and open my heart? Are you living in the same world as I am? Do you believe yourself to be in a position to advise me as to in what state I should live? Then you gently tell me that 'Knowledge (Maharaji's) can take (me) there.' You continue after this hot tip with more 'wisdom' that you assume I need to hear. ' To thine own Self be true. Think for yourself. Pray if you want to. Trust your hunches. Follow your intuition.' (Thanks for giving me permission to pray, I needed that :-) And then you go for the punch line (and command), ' Get Knowledge,' After I've shut down my mind and opened my heart and gotten' K'nowledge Maharaji style, it might well be a bit late for the deal you then offered: ' and then if you like it fine, if you don't like it fine.' It's not exactly reassuring given this context. I find these inconsistencies and contradictions in your letter to be more disturbing than those of the e-mail friend I wrote to you about, especially coupled with your avoidance of the one question I did ask you. Or perhaps you do drugs (or got a lobotomy? And did Maharaji help your good friend Jim Morrison to break on through to the other side? ;-) When the world has finally become a giant web of Maharaji ashrams, then what? How would he organize it - with deputies/devoted spindoctors, monitoring his premies and potential defectors/turncoats? Any projection of this into time is not a pretty picture in my opinion. There is some hope here, as he doesn't seem to have 'brainwashed' anybody well enough to have had the requisite 'control' for even the first step. But to what end? What is Maharaji's vision of the future, or yours, Deputy Dog? On the topic of control, it seems that this thread moved into a discussion about the numbers and 'quality' of premies. It does seem to be somewhat true that there is a trend away from organized religions and adherence. Most of us have at least attended some kind of religious service, schule, meeting, whatever, at some time in our lives. In my experience, most people there are good everyday human beings from our communities, with the usual variations in intelligence and education. Some, perhaps, are more intuitively, and therefore more deeply drawn than others. These are the ones who always continue to seek the Truth - following with open, but increasingly knowledgeable and aware hearts and minds, any possible thread that rings true, be they mediated or experiential, reflecting on what they perceive and feel, and trying to integrate this into the framework of their daily lives. With regards to the money and power the Maharaji seems to crave, can you not see the mythical dragon hoarding its wealth: Lord of the Material World? In my mind and heart I could never believe that God would ever want any of my money, but accepting what I feel guided by the Divine Head, Heart and Hand to be/do is a completely different matter, even if this means any degree of loss of time, status, income, health, or life. Yes, there is significance to my name; it's one of my family names, and it's spelled Stonor. Sometimes someone on the outside can recognize patterns without having entered into them. Stonor

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Date: Thurs, Feb 24, 2000 at 04:05:15 (GMT) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: stonor Subject: A moral question for Deputy Dog Message:

stonor, Just a few quick answers to your note, cause I'm not supposed to be here: - live in whatever state you want - you are right. You don't need my permission to pray, didn't realize I was giving it - IMO the heart is the safest place, but your experience might be different - don't know what Maharaji's vision of the future is, it's probably better than mine - I have never felt comfortable with organized groups of any sort, but if you like them, fine - if you think money makes you happy, it's too bad you can't talk with Chris Farley, Elvis, Kurt Cobain, Brian Jones etc. - if you don't want to give Maharaji money, don't - if you want Knowledge fine, if you don't want Knowledge fine. I don't have a vested interest in any of this - same goes for TM, the Forum, Scientology, NLP, Self Realization Fellowship, vipassana, polarity work, Feldenkrais, dream workshops, primal therapy, Rolfing, chanting, grounding, channeling, rebirthing, centering, self-parenting, flower essences, dancing on hot coals, colon cleansing, or nude volleyball. The world is your oyster bro. You can do whatever you want to! -- Dep

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Date: Thurs, Feb 24, 2000 at 23:23:26 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Look what happens to premies, eh Dog? Message:

live in whatever state you want ..... same goes for TM, the Forum, Scientology, NLP, Self Realization Fellowship, vipassana, polarity work, Feldenkrais, dream workshops, primal therapy, Rolfing, chanting, grounding, channeling, rebirthing, centering, self-parenting, flower essences, dancing on hot coals, colon cleansing, or nude volleyball. I guess what you're saying, Dog, is that there's no such thing as a dangerous, predatory mind trap, huh? Doesn't matter what you do, what you believe.... Scientology? Hey, why not? This is a complete abdication of morality, judgement, discretion and reality.

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Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 02:59:39 (GMT) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Jim Subject: Look what happens to premies, eh Dog? Message:

Jim, You said, 'I guess what you're saying, Dog, is that there's no such thing as a dangerous, predatory mind trap, huh? Doesn't matter what you do, what you believe.... Scientology? Hey, why not? This is a complete abdication of morality, judgement, discretion and reality.' No, it's a free country! -- Dep P.S. Jim I promised you I'd leave and not come back. Stop answering my posts!

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Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 16:53:16 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: How did you ever get so fucking superficial? Message:

Amazing, Dog. Absolutely amazing.

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Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 17:28:52 (GMT) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Jim Subject: Yeah, gosh darn that fiendish Scientology! Message:

Jim, How did you get so twisted? And for every Scientology whiner there are probably 99 satisfied customers. Just like Knowledge. Amazing, absolutely amazing. Didn't you suggest I go away for a while, maybe forever? So stop answering my posts!

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Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 23:59:43 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Your defense of Scientology is STUPIDO!!!!!!! Message:

Scientology is a scam. Based on absolute idiocy. You have no discrimination. Or, if you do, you're not exercising it. But then you're a premie, right? And yes, I'll keep talking to you so long as it's so illuminative of the premie mind-set. I'm glad we're talking in public. It's too good to be missed.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 24, 2000 at 20:29:43 (GMT) From: stonor Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: A moral question for Deputy Dog Message:

Dear Deputy Dog, I don't know if it's being a premie or what, but can you hear/understand what you or anyone else is saying? ' I'm not supposed to be here:' YOU said you had written your last posting - from my understanding and experience this is not a private forum. Perhaps you are supposed to be here; are you perhaps listening to your intuition? ' - I have never felt comfortable with organized groups of any sort, but if you like them, fine' When did I say I liked organized groups? And for that matter what do you call the Majaraji's (except perhaps increasingly disorganized from what I can understand, especially if your mind is any reflection of the effect of M's 'knowledge'). Not that it's relevant, but I have never been a member of any organized religion, except passively as a child. I think it was Hal who mentioned Rumi; I have often explained my point of view with this quote, 'Lovers of God have no religion, but God alone.' ' - if you think money makes you happy, it's too bad you can't talk with Chris Farley, Elvis, Kurt Cobain, Brian Jones etc.' When did I say I think money can make me happy? You still haven't answered my question, but please don't bother; I have all the 'answers' I need from you, and have no further desire to dialogue with someone who either can't understand simple English or can't be bothered to read what I have written, and then continues to make judgemental assumptions about who I am. I am glad to see that you have returned to this site; I hope that it comes from a subconscious desire to learn the truth about your current lack of hearing and sight, and that one day you might understand what these wonderful people are saying. They love you more, and care more about you and your soul than M can even conceive of. All the best turning the corner! My prayers are with you and all who seek the Truth. Love, Stonor PS: The world is God's 'oyster', not yours or mine, or M's, or any individual's, but the Whole's.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 24, 2000 at 20:37:38 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: stonor Subject: Well fuckin' said Stonor nt Message:

s

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Date: Thurs, Feb 24, 2000 at 18:55:31 (GMT) From: cqg Email: None To: Deputy Lap-Dog Subject: future? quote:'it's probably better than mine'(nt) Message:

Dep says: 'don't know what Maharaji's vision of the future is, it's probably better than mine' Lap-dog mentality.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 24, 2000 at 11:43:12 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: A moral question for Deputy Dog Message:

Dog said:- - if you don't want to give Maharaji money, don't John says:- - if you want to give Maharaji money, DON'T!!!!

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 15:22:28 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: A flippant question for Dep Message:

Hey Dep, Nars to mek yer akwayntance on the forum.I used to love you when I was a kid and you played that cartoon character. Why did you get the nickname ? Do you speak like him , or look like him, or neither of those?

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 18:56:07 (GMT) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Hal Subject: A flippant question for Dep Message:

Hal, I look like an Irish version of Johhny Depp, except he's just slightly better looking. -- Dep

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 06:57:58 (GMT) From: mir Email: None To: stonor Subject: A moral question Message:

How do you (or anyone else) feel about possible spiritual misrepresentation and friendships used to deceive and manipulate the vulnerable for selfish personal desires. Deliberately deceiving and manipulating anyone is dishonest and therefore incongruous with truth. By now you know, people on this forum like to believe Maharaji has willfully deceived them. But you have to take that with a grain of salt. For every one person here there's 1000 more who don't feel that way. For me personally I wanted to experience for myself the wonder that I knew was all around me but couldn't see. I tried many ways to see it. Some gave me glimpses others did nothing. I finally realised I needed to find somebody who had found the source of wonder for themself, and I soon stumbled upon Maharaji. There's no doubt when listening to him that he is in awe of existence. Many people here are quite jaded about such simple wonderment. But when I listen to him I am always reminded that I too can experience real joy, and sure enough it works. Problem is these folks now think they know it all. Funny thing is, for people who know so much they offer so little short of, 'It's ok, just find your happiness in life's daily chores and personal interactions', or something like that. Well, if that's all they need, fine. I personally find that tedious as hell.

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 15:59:18 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: mir Subject: A moral question Message:

Mir wrote: 'For every one person here there's 1000 more who don't feel that way.' G responds: At least 90% of the people who 'received Knowledge' do not 'practice Knowledge', i.e. they do not follow Maharaji. Your statement is misleading. If Maharaji really did show people God face-to-face, as he claimed he could do, why such a high percentage not following him? Mire wrote: 'he is in awe of existence. Many people here are quite jaded about such simple wonderment' G responds: Sometimes he seems in awe, other times he doesn't. If he is in such awe, why does he need excessive luxury, e.g. a $20-30,000,000 private jet, a $20,000,000 mansion, fleet of luxury cars, expensive watch collection, etc.? I am not jaded about simple wonderment, I'm jaded about Prem Rawat. Maybe some people here are jaded, but how did they get jaded? I would say partially because of Prem Rawat's hypocrisy and abuse. Mir wrote: 'these folks now think they know it all' G responds: I think I know very little. Mir wrote: 'they offer so little short of, 'It's ok, just find your happiness in life's daily chores and personal interactions' G responds: I find happiness in being alive, feel happiness within me, and still meditate. A person can be eclectic, they can learn from other people besides Maharaji. There are other groups that meditate, such as Buddhists, although I would rather not embrace (submit to) a particular belief system. A lot of what Maharaji says he gets from other people. So, why should I only listen to him? Maharaji has said a lot that I agree with, but his 'simple message' is said within a context that taints it, that complicates it. On one pro-Maharaji site, a person wrote that between programs 'I don't feel so good'. This is a message that was edited for 'clarity'. So why doesn't this person feel a contentment that lasts between programs? Perhaps because of a psychological dependency fostered in part by Maharaji. That is not exactly 'simple wonderment'. Also, chores (activities) and especially personal interactions can be enjoyed if one is enjoying life and has contentment. They don't have to be viewed/felt as burdens, or as you said 'tedious as hell'. Isn't going to a program a chore (an activity)? Isn't listening to Maharaji a personal interaction? I don't like the false polarization between what is considered sacred (Maharaji) and the profane (everything else, including us, including you). I have been inspired by people other than Maharaji, including ordinary people who do not profess to be a teacher.

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 19:26:43 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: G Subject: Thanks G Message:

Dear G, you just made the perfect answer,from my perspective that I'm just too tired today to have made.Excellent clarity.

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 18:02:42 (GMT) From: mir Email: None To: G Subject: A moral question Message:

Mir wrote: 'For every one person here there's 1000 more who don't feel that way.' G responds: At least 90% of the people who 'received Knowledge' do not 'practice Knowledge', i.e. they do not follow Maharaji. Your statement is misleading. I'm not trying to mislead anybody. I'm stating the fact that the vocal few on this forum are a very small representation of the people who have one time or another practised Knowledge. And by comparison there are orders of magnitude more people who feel differently about Maharaji than you do. Besides you don't know what those so-called 90% are doing right now or how they feel about Maharaji, so you cannot claim them as proxy supporters of the outrageous views espoused here. Mire wrote: 'he is in awe of existence. Many people here are quite jaded about such simple wonderment' G responds: Sometimes he seems in awe, other times he doesn't. Yeah, and sometimes he's healthy and sometimes he gets a cold. The reality is he's much more respectful of the sanctity of existence than anyone out there I've seen. Speaking for myself as someone who wants to be reminded of such things, he always renews my hope and faith in the wonder of existence. If he is in such awe, why does he need excessive luxury, e.g. a $20-30,000,000 private jet, a $20,000,000 mansion, fleet of luxury cars, expensive watch collection, etc.? Who's assuming he needs it? You. What you're saying is he MUST not experience the awe of existence because if he were he wouldn't have all that stuff. Who said that stuff interferes with his sense of awe? You. You are making huge assumptions G that he is motivated by the same things as you are. Besides, the jet is a tool he uses to bring his message to the people like me around the world, and remind them there is something more precious than gold within them that isn't just a bunch of nice eclectic thoughts. Careful not to minimise the importance of that reminder to those people just because it doesn't mean anything to you. I am not jaded about simple wonderment, I'm jaded about Prem Rawat. Maybe some people here are jaded, but how did they get jaded? I would say partially because of Prem Rawat's hypocrisy and abuse. Sorry G but I have never seen abuse though I have seen people flip out around him. Yes, I've seen him angry; but I've seen him kind. I've seen him aloof; but I've seen him loving. I've seen him unforgiving; but I've seen him compassionate. I've seen my mind burning up when he challenges my ego; but I've seen a deeper understanding of what it takes to be free. And I've NEVER seen him be anything but a perfect teacher. Mir wrote: 'these folks now think they know it all' G responds: I think I know very little. That is very refreshing. So why doesn't this person feel a contentment that lasts between programs? Perhaps because of a psychological dependency fostered in part by Maharaji. That is not exactly 'simple wonderment'. There you go making more assumptions. OK if you can make assumptions I'll make one too: Perhaps because they are away from the one person they have found that they feel secure around. Isn't going to a program a chore (an activity)? Isn't listening to Maharaji a personal interaction? Yeah and if I wasn't having an experience for myself that would be tedious as hell too. Hey, I think we're on to something G!

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 23:17:08 (GMT) From: Mike Email: None To: mir Subject: Wrong, mir! Message:

mir: You said, '...The reality is he's much more respectful of the sanctity of existence than anyone out there I've seen....' If this statement is even the slightest bit true, why does he insist on dumping tons of pollutants into the atmosphere so that he can fly his own, personal jetliner-for-one? It's a simple question, mir. If your statement above is true, mir, then why doesn't he give money he receives from premies to those organizations that actually DO something to preserve 'the sanctity of existence,' like the Nature Conservancy and others? Why, instead, does he spend all of that money on useless additions to his mansion and to his collection of cars and gold toilet seats? I 'understand' that he now wants a sailboat, WHY????

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 23:41:53 (GMT) From: mir Email: None To: Mike Subject: I can't argue with such incisive points Mike (nt) Message:

nt ;o)

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Date: Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 15:37:00 (GMT) From: Mike Email: None To: mir Subject: You're right, you can't and you shouldn't Message:

mir: It's called 'taking off the blinders.' You guys see what you WANT to see. M is a total hypocrite. He 'talks the talk,' but he has never 'walked the walk.' When has he EVER shown respect for existence? He's talked about it, but his ACTIONS bely his real 'feelings' about existence and the planet upon which that existence depends. If nothing else, his personal record with regard to the environment is abysmal. I'm not asking for 'perfection' here, just some leadership-by-example on his part. If he REALLY cared about existence, he would give to those that perform ACTIONS to preserve existence. That leadership would be followed by his loyal minions, because they (premies) feel obligated to follow his example. If he REALLY cared about existence, he would show it by using the resources of this planet in a frugal manner, NOT in the outrageously wasteful ways that he currently abuses them. Again, if he showed this kind of leadership-by-example, his loyal minions would follow without question. ABUSE of this planet isn't proving his point, IMHO. It certainly doesn't do anything to prove your point, either. He has no respect for ANY existence, except his own. His ACTIONS speak much louder than anything he could ever 'say!'

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Date: Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 19:15:34 (GMT) From: ham Email: None To: Mike Subject: Quite (nt) Message:

a

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 20:48:36 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: mir Subject: A moral question Message:

Mir wrote: you don't know what those so-called 90% are doing right now or how they feel about Maharaji G reponds: Do you honestly think the 90% figure is way off? I don't know what they are doing, but they are not following Maharaji, and if they felt really good about him, I think they would follow him. Do you think that they are just being BAD premies, willfully disobeying the One they know to be the Lord? Mir wrote: 'Who's assuming he needs it? You. What you're saying is he MUST not experience the awe of existence because if he were he wouldn't have all that stuff. Who said that stuff interferes with his sense of awe? You. You are making huge assumptions G that he is motivated by the same things as you are. Besides, the jet is a tool he uses to bring his message to the people like me around the world...' G responds: Well, if he doesn't need this junk, why does he buy it? What a waste of money. It's not that he needs this junk, he WANTS it. He recently called his watch collecting 'a bad habit', and I'm not paraphrasing, I heard this directly in a video. So, was he lying? I assume he wasn't, I'm taking him at his word. Therefore, his watch collecting is NOT a test of his follower's faith and devotion, which is the usual excuse. It's just a bad habit. Note: a premie bragged to me years ago about picking up a $5,000 watch for M. Of course, that's nothing compared to the other junk. Don't assume I'm motivated by materialistic greed. It's strange, you have no reason to think I have such motivation. Yet despite contrary evidence, you assume that he is not greedy. Mir wrote: 'Careful not to minimise the importance of that reminder to those people just because it doesn't mean anything to you.' G responds: I understand the importance and it does mean something to me. I'm not against the good part of what he says, I don't think it's that simple. Also, I didn't say eclectic thoughts. Mir wrote: 'I have never seen abuse though I have seen people flip out around him.' G responds: I have seen abuse, for example his words and delivery at the Kissimmee program, also the ashram. I was in HIS ashram, which had a very negative effect on me. He never did apologize or say that he made a mistake. No, he said 'mistakes were made' just like Ronald Reagan. What were these people flipping out about? Mir wrote: 'I've seen him angry; but I've seen him kind...' G responds: Given his inconsistency, do you think he is enlightened? Sure, he's got a good side, most people do. That doesn't mean I should worship him. Mir wrote: 'I've seen my mind burning up when he challenges my ego' G responds: And what was you 'mind' telling you, or are you not supposed to listen to it?

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 21:23:03 (GMT) From: mir Email: None To: G Subject: A moral question Message:

I was at Kissimmee too and it was not abuse. Yeah it was a pressure cooker and I personally went through a hell of a lot but in the end I learned a hell of a lot, and it was more than worth it. I was also in the ashram and that was sometimes a pressure cooker too, but again I learned a lot there too and wouldn't trade it for anything. I'm sorry you didn't see it that way but in my opinion Kissmmee wasn't a mistake nor was the ashram so why should he apologize? Perhaps it was a mistake for you to be there but that's another question. I have been the brunt of consternation from him on a few occasions and I went through some of the most intense times of my life because of it. But I can say without hesitation that I was never abused. And after I came through it I felt a deeper understanding and level of liberation I hadn't experienced previously. I don't know if he 'planned' it that way but that is the way it worked out. You know G sometimes in a learning environment it gets intense. Jeez why don't you ask for an apology from teachers who flunk their students and make them repeat the year again? Can you imagine how much trauma that put the poor kid through?

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 22:18:22 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: mir Subject: The ashram Message:

I was in the ashram because he wanted all single premies to move in the ashram. So I did what he wanted me to do. Was it a mistake to do what he wanted me to do? The ashram was not just a mistake, it was a disaster, and he did say 'mistakes were made'. Meaning what, that other people, but not him, made mistakes? Garbage. And I bought it.

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 23:38:48 (GMT) From: mir Email: None To: G Subject: The ashram Message:

I was in the ashram because he wanted all single premies to move in the ashram. So I did what he wanted me to do. Was it a mistake to do what he wanted me to do? G my recollection is he often spoke extremely highly of the ashram lifestyle and that it was the best way to surrender (bad term in today's PC milieu but it worked well in India), but I don't recall him giving an 'edict' for all single premies to move in. As a matter of fact there was a screening process in place to ensure people gave it a sober second thought. The ashram was not just a mistake, it was a disaster, and he did say 'mistakes were made'. Meaning what, that other people, but not him, made mistakes? Garbage. And I bought it. Why do you say it was a disaster, because it was a disaster for you? It wasn't a disaster at all for most of the people I know who lived there. Perhaps he could have given people like you more support to practise Knowledge outside of the ashram. I do remember some very strong premies who never moved in but always had service to do and are still very active today. Then again, I know some people would not have stuck with Knowledge without the ashram. I think from his perspective practising Knowledge is the best thing you can do with your life so maybe he looked at it like, whatever it took to get you to practise. I really can't say if he owes you an apology or not. Either way I trust you have accepted your part of the responsibility for your 'disaster' and moved on. By the way, I heard him say with my own ears that he made some mistakes along the way.

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Date: Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 17:26:21 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: mir Subject: Maharaji said he has made mistakes Message:

Mir wrote: By the way, I heard him say with my own ears that he made some mistakes along the way. I heard him say that too. Some mistakes? One very important point you brouth up. Company of truth. Satsang. Truth? Maharaji has made not some mistakes, but many, many, many of them, and I am working in a sumary of his biggest ones. One of them was to convince premies on the 70's that whatever came out of his mouth was totally true, to latter contradict himself endlessly. Who is this guru Mir? The Lord? An elnlighten being? He said he wasn't either one. A charlatan is more like it. Sorry Mir. Simple logic. If you decide to begin thinking and 'study' his statements you will see too his many inconsistencies.

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Date: Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 00:01:00 (GMT) From: Anon Email: None To: mir Subject: The ashram Message:

By the way, I heard him say with my own ears that he made some mistakes along the way. Hi Mir, I wasn't going to post this because I thought it was a bit disorganised writing. I have been having a flood of thoughts coming to me about all this over the last few days, so I have found myself scribbling this down to sort of help sort out some ideas. Anyway since you wrote the above (and I touched on this in my writing) here it is. Do comment if anything particularly strikes you. I think that through my writing I am finally getting closer to nailing exactly what has put me off. I have abbreviated Maharaji to 'M' and Knowledge to 'K' I have been wondering if M or premies would ever consider that it may be a nice idea to try and reintegrate so-called ex-premies. Also there must be a lot of potentially 'faltering premies' who, as well as having a 'healthy' appreciation of K, have nagging doubts about some things. Almost all premies, must sometime quietly suffer some difficulty in reconciling their experiences or consciences (what is the difference... somebody care to elaborate?) with some of the things that happen. To sustain a steady loss of confidence from within the existing body of persons with K will inevitably raise questions from newcomers who may quite easily be put off from receiving K themselves unless clear explanations are given. Any Re-integration Plan would involve M, or agents of his, offering some clear explanations to answer specific problem areas for doubting Thomases. For example, as to why it was a healthy and neccessary thing for reasonably intelligent and sensible people to have been pressurised to ignore their better judgements and to devote years to various services which were later dismissed as having been only experiments. I feel that as a result of the way things were run, some of us suffered some unfortunate and avoidable intellectual degradation, and that the propagation of the K (the goal to which we were keenly committed) may have been actually lessened by keeping us unsuitably and lengthily occupied. I, for example, felt that it went very much against the grain to have to surrender to some of the things we were supposed to and, had I not been made to feel so guilty about using my mind, I should have resisted demands such as those to so totally give up any life of my own in so-called 'service'. Consider the ways one was urged to prove to the Mahatmas how much one wanted Knowledge. They wielded their power often with little sensitivity towards elderly or more dignified people, who were not exempt from being required to do all kinds of innappropriate things, like bouncing around, hungry and exhausted in the back of some old Ford Transit van, or being bossed around by some pasty faced young ex-heroin addict convert, collecting people's junk for jumble sales! This sort of 'service' was generally expected from seekers whoever they were, as proof of their sincerity! It struck me as grossly unfair that if you declined this initial gross test you would inevitably be judged as unworthy. I was really sorry on behalf of other people who I knew could never suffer the indignities I did whilst waiting to get K, but whom I knew were just as sincere as I or any others. In retrospect, much of what we were told to do in the name of service could never have remotely been construed as having 'served' in any constructive way other than to depersonalise the sufferer in a most unpleasant way or to prove that he had become obedient, servile and unquestioning enough (in a very simplistic way) to be deemed worthy of K by the Instructor.(often a simple-headed Indian man) There was a kind of medieval and childish barbarity (partly through the ill-fitting Indian premie belief structure that travelled with M to the west) which was very alien to me but I somehow felt I must submit to, since K seemed to be essentially a lofty aspiration and I naively trusted that, rather than being abused, I was undergoing some sort of necessary spiritual purging. Thus I dismissed my misgivings and followed the directions that M and his instructors gave me without question. Moreover I recognised that to have a childlike and unquestioning heart was an innocent, and therefore probably marvelous, condition and so I tried to suspend all judgement. Thus I was basically putty in his hands from the word 'go'. I think most of us were prepared to do almost whatever he demanded and we did so on the whole. I have some regret that when I was younger my better judgement was so completely swept aside in the tide of fear towards the mind (which was clearly often confused with the brain.) As time passed by and I became totally involved in being a premie, my thoughts would often naturally turn to how I could be a more efficient servant. This usually translated into asking myself how I could earn more money. I was never asked to be an instructor and was wary about asking for any specific service. (I was convinced that it was best only to do as one was asked via Maharaji's chain of command- ie. you shouldn't choose your service but do as you were told) Inevitably there was a dichotomy in this respect because M effectively condoned that ashram premies request the specific and much coveted service of Instructor, by his sending out Initiator Application Forms to ashrams. I don't remember ever receiving one of these forms actually, although quite a few people I knew did, and went on to be 'chosen'. I remember that it became clear to me that the mechanism by which people became instructors was not so entirely by magical grace. More prosaically, those premies who put themselves forward the most vigourously and ambitiously appeared more often to rapidly rise to positions where they were around Maharaji, become initiators or such-like. I was too utterly embedded in abject humility at this stage, to enjoin the cries of 'Me too! Over here Maharaji!' I quietly concluded that it was therefore no longer particularly a required component of one's attitude, to wholly shun aspiring to services which one may feel suited to or even, more daringly, might actually enjoy. Unfortunately this attitude rather backfired later, when I was unceremoniously slung out of the ashram in 1982 accused curtly of being too attached to a particular service (and for another ridiculous reason which I elaborated on in a thread down below). Clearly I had crossed the boundaries of healthy use of the brain, into the vaguer territory of the evil Mind. The only service an ashram premie could safely aspire to was that of 'Instructor' apparently. As if to make some amends for the confusion that resulted from his past rigorous condemnation of the mind, M did later concede that there was indeed a difference between the dreaded Mind and the useful old brain. He cannot be accused of being overly forthcoming in his refinement of the distinction and, of course, much damage had already arguably been done because the premie culture of anti-mind had persisted for so long as a result of this philosophy. Certainly the degree to which premies could use 'their brains' to organise themselves effectively as a 'propogation force' for M and K has been historically limited by the reluctance of M to let others 'run with it' as it were. It is slightly analogous to the situation at the time of the Kosovo crisis, when NATO governments were so nervous about giving their commanders freedom to exersize their professional judgements as to how to run the war (how low they could fly, use ground troops etc) that the latter were unable to effectively do their job of stopping the Serbs' ethnic cleansing. The implication has always been that premies were not to be trusted to make responsible desisions about how Knowledge could be practiced or spread, that M, being the Master, would always be ahead of his students and that in effect they would never be wise enough to assist in fundamental decisions. This left M totally in charge to organise his compliant workforce in various ways, such as by instituting ashrams. These, it was later claimed, were to a degree, failed experiments which M had terminated on eventually discovering the drawbacks. Thus there may have been hinted some small confession of failure from him over this matter, but this was effectively drowned out by the volume of his confident proclamations that all was going to perfect plan. Clearly M considered himself to be above all others, capable of inspiring the world to receive and practise Knowledge and, at that time deemed that we, as spiritually neophytes, were best employed just working to pay for him to fly around the world, propagating it himself. He created Instructors and co-ordinators who were possibly not drawn from the ranks for their brain power but more for their qualities of simple obeisance . I am, however, glad that I no longer have to suffer chastisement at the hands of some of the more unconscious premies that M had picked to be his officers. I think David Smith comes to mind as an example of someone who seemed to me to particularly derive pleasure within his Instructorly role, from giving heavy lectures to people like myself . Jagdeo, who stands accused of sexually abusing children during the execution of his service, is obviously an example of a far more tragic choice for the job of Instructor. As warning, there were many instances of premies whose downfalls from grace and rejection from office were held up as infamous examples of the fate that awaited those who dared to question how M ran things. The most notorious of these was of course Bob Mishler whose mysterious and premature death was sinisterly cited by many as an example of 'instant karma' for the sin of his betrayal. I think that one can see from the interview with Mishler that he actually had a few quite insightful and sensible things to say. Naturally Mishler was later demonised for having been a thorn in the side of the Master. I think it is worth considering how things might have turned out if M had taken a different attitude and had given his premies more of a share of the business, as it were. These are just ideas that I think merit some thought since we have assumed for so long that M is so utterly the rightful 'owner' of knowledge and accorded him almost dictatorial power over us in our lives. I wonder how much of the belief that we cannot be as inspiring teachers of knowledge as him, is just because of his insistence that he is the only one who can teach it. It's not as if we were ever really given the opportunity to try, although M likes to remind us of the mess we apparently made of things when we were given a chance. I credit M for being the passer-on of the information about the existence of Knowledge and for having some success in teaching it, but I don't think that the conclusion that one must draw from this is that Knowledge cannot be efficiently taught or propagated by any others. Many premies had they not been cast as workers, earning money for him, may have been more constructively employed using their intelligence and talents (where they were of note) to organise things more democratically. Of course in reality this would have been out of the question. Maybe I could be so outrageous as to suggest that it may be better for the world if the dissemination of Knowledge was not so tightly controlled by one man. After all two heads are better than one! Maybe if M had allowed us continue to give satsang, follow our inspiration and organise ourselves under a less dictatorial management, the chaos (that we have been led to believe would have resulted) would not have happened. OK so there were a few idiots with cosmic ideas of their own who liked a soapbox from which to preach and they may have attempted to gain a career from spouting their personal beliefs in the name of Knowledge. However I think that the majority of people would be able to make their own judgements about Knowledge from their own experiences, despite whatever wayward people might preach, and that after all was said and done the experience would speak for itself. The truth would out. I guess I have always credited the general public with more ability to discern and appreciate Truth than Maharaji or premies seem to, since they seem so guarded with their experience. Could M have made more attempt to spot and encourage more talented, less sycophantic people to take responsibilities, organise the thing more as a charitable business with the precept of increasing global awareness and appreciation of life (sort of like National Geographic!)? Could things have worked out even better? Could Maharaji have less just squashed everybody down into one servile heap with him on top and encouraged genuine people to help create a more democratic and healthily functioning organisation? If past mistakes are admitted whose to say M isn't still making them especially since those who may have once rightly forseen and noticed his mistakes when they were being made, were not given any consideration and worse were singled out as being 'in their minds', their opinions invalidated merely by that and the assumption that M could do no wrong. I was often frustrated that I could once plainly see errors and pitfalls as they were taking place. Had my opinion been worth anything in M's world I think I could have been of some help, as I'm sure could many level-headed people. As it was, the way M had it once, there were certainly a lot of people in positions of control who made quite a mess of things. Is it surprising that my trust in M was damaged seeing these people perpetually putting people off and more sensible people being ignored? Now M seems to have over-reacted to the problem, sacked everybody and determined that he alone can inspire the world to receive Knowledge, through his singular wit, art, music and poetry. Other's efforts are really only needed to promote his one-man-band, his particular personal vision. If M is so averse to including, accepting advise from, or co-operating with others could he not be in danger of becoming dangerously overconfident? The captain of the Titanic was so confident of his actions that he inspired considerable trust from his crew and passengers and yet he ran his ship, and thousands of helpless people, into an iceberg and to their doom. Maharaji no doubt prides himself to be the conscientious and meticulous Captain of his aircraft, but to what lengths will he go to reassure his sick passengers that everything is OK. Or will his voice come over the loudspeakers 'If you don't like it-jump!'

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Date: Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 07:15:57 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: Anon Subject: really excellent post Message:

Anon I certainly think that your talents were waisted with M . Thanks for your sensible and articulate posts and for the time and effort you put into them. You make me sound like a dumb Klutz. Best wishes Hal

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Date: Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 03:33:21 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: All Subject: Maybe premies should take over teaching K Message:

If M is not willing to let go of his dictatorship and one-man-band show, maybe premies should take over teaching K without his permission. Premies, why not consider it? You know he's not perfect. Do you really think that he by his lonesome is going to bring K to the entire world? Is his poetry, art, and music so impressive? Are people eager to worship him? There are many people who are interested in meditation, but do not want to engage in idolatry. This is not because of their 'ego', but because they recognize that it is just plain wrong. He recently said 'Does the world need to change? I don't know'. Quite a retraction from what he said in 1970: 'I declare I will establish peace in this world'. If he doesn't even know or care that the world needs to change, it's time for him to step down willingly or for premies to take back the power they have given him. Don't hold your breath waiting for him to step down. I waited and waited for true reform, it never came. There is too much focus on the person Prem Rawat, his family, his desires, his hobbies, his possessions, his this, his that ... What would Monet think of his art? What would Chopin think of his music? Would they think 'Oh my God, it is so beautiful, he must be God Incarnate.'? Yet he is so impressed with himself. It's time for him to get a lesson in reality.

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Date: Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 16:56:21 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: G Subject: But what is there to teach? Message:

(And what qualifies premies as teachers?) Very well put, G, and I agree with every word apart from the idea that Knowledge involves 'teaching' of any kind. (Though I realise your question to premies might have been more of a challenge to their belief system, rather than a serious suggestion.) But, anyway, it is surely harder to learn to tie your shoelaces than pick up four meditation techniques (which are already public domain.) I can't imagine a person's meditation experiences varying very much regardless of how they came by the method. Probably the only things which will determine different qualities of experience are the meditator's mindset, state of relaxedness, willingness to spend time and effort etc. If knowledge were as great as it is portrayed it would generate its own momentum - effectively propagating itself in the way a good joke will spread with nobody making much effort on its behalf. OK, some people tell jokes better than others but all are equally qualified to tell them.

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Date: Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 21:53:28 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Nigel Subject: But what is there to teach? Message:

It was a half-serious suggestion. A premie rebellion probably won't happen given how much premies think they are under M's thumb, but who knows. But what is there to teach? Just some easy to learn techniques, which actually could be expanded to include meditation in general. Different perspectives, including a secular perspective could be discussed. It could be pointed out that you don't really need to conceptualize meditation. Of course, this 'teaching' wouldn't have to be centralized or organized. Why not reveal the 'secrets' of the 'Gurus', including Maharaji, the Maharishi, etc. For example, my secret TM mantra was 'AAANNNGGG' (with a long a), which I paid something like $250 for many years ago. And what qualifies premies as teachers? Nothing in particular, there are other people who teach meditation. I wasn't implying they would make better teachers. And I agree, it isn't rocket science.

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Date: Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 01:58:53 (GMT) From: miroire Email: None To: Anon Subject: The ashram Message:

Hey Anon, a very respectful post. It sincerely reminded me of the song from JC Supe Star….you know, the one that goes something like: Ev'ry time I look at you I don't understand Why you let the things you do get so out of hand You could have da, da, da, da , da to rule a whole nation Da, da, da, da, da,da, da, da mass communication Don't ya get me wrong (don't ya get me wrong) Don't ya get me wrong (don't ya get me wrong) Only wanna know (only wanna know) I only wanna know etc. Sorry I couldn't remember the words but, you get the point. All the best.

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Date: Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 01:34:05 (GMT) From: Steve Email: None To: Anon Subject: The ashram Message:

Annon said: 'I have been wondering if M or premies would ever consider that it may be a nice idea to try and reintegrate so-called ex-premies.' reply: Does the fish want to reintegrate with the sea?

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 18:20:21 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: mir Subject: Sure, mir, anything you say Message:

I'm not trying to mislead anybody. I'm stating the fact that the vocal few on this forum are a very small representation of the people who have one time or another practised Knowledge. And by comparison there are orders of magnitude more people who feel differently about Maharaji than you do. Besides you don't know what those so-called 90% are doing right now or how they feel about Maharaji, so you cannot claim them as proxy supporters of the outrageous views espoused here. You've got to be kidding. Take any North American city. Get out the rolls of all the people that ever got 'initiated' by the guru. How many still like him, let alone follow him? Answer: very, very very few. Like maybe, just maybe, 10 per cent.

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 18:51:18 (GMT) From: mir Email: None To: Jim Subject: OK mister scientist Message:

Why don't you set up a valid test taking into account an acceptable degree of confidence and go out there do some proper research? That instead of making wild unfounded speculations. Or do you just pull out the science card to fool people into thinking you know what you're talking about? Critical thinker my ass!

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 19:55:02 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: mir Subject: OK Mir, mister scientist Message:

Jim wrote: I'm not trying to mislead anybody. I'm stating the fact that the vocal few on this forum are a very small representation of the people who have one time or another practised Knowledge. And by comparison there are orders of magnitude more people who feel differently about Maharaji than you do. Besides you don't know what those so-called 90% are doing right now or how they feel about Maharaji, so you cannot claim them as proxy supporters of the outrageous views espoused here. You've got to be kidding. Take any North American city. Get out the rolls of all the people that ever got 'initiated' by the guru. How many still like him, let alone follow him? Answer: very, very very few. Like maybe, just maybe, 10 per cent. mir responded: Why don't you set up a valid test taking into account an acceptable degree of confidence and go out there do some proper research? That instead of making wild unfounded speculations. Or do you just pull out the science card to fool people into thinking you know what you're talking about? Critical thinker my ass! Mir, Until few months a go I was in the city I live the aspirant contact and beside my 'responsibilities' I had to do a lot of the city contact' 'duties' because he was hard to find most of the time. One of the city contact 'duties' was to send each month a written form to report local video events' attendance to Elan Vital/maharaji. Over the five years I was involved I saw the number dropped little by little, to the present time when only ONE OR TWO people are present at those events. The premies still involved do not want to follow Elan Vital 'guidelines/orders' and do it their own way. They think they are helping 'The Master' putting the video events, because they have not yet realized that Elan Vital IS Maharaji. Do you know that? About numbers, again. I was told by an instructor who came to 'visit'-to tell us to do fundrisers- that the number at that time,4 years a go was 10 premies average, was 'very good', because other American cities attendance average was five premies. Now you tell me: Where do you live?? What are you talking about? What is YOUR research based on?? Just curious. I would like an answer so I can laugh a little more. It seems you are missinformed. :)

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Date: Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 17:11:59 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Mir Subject: OK Mir, mister scientist: Can you answer my ... Message:

questions or not? Please answer.

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 20:31:04 (GMT) From: mir Email: None To: SB Subject: A slight correction SB Message:

No I don't think I'm misinformed and wasn't saying numbers were not down. In fact I made no claims and drew no conclusions other than the number of people who support the views on this forum are far outweighed by the number of premies who value Knowledge and Maharaji. And what the does the number of people on a mailing list have to do with the relevancy of Knowledge anyway? That kind of indicator applies to sheep and lemmings but not to people trying to know themselves. Whether one other person supports my view or a billion does not affect my personal experience whatsoever.

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Date: Wed, Feb 23, 2000 at 20:14:28 (GMT) From: cqg Email: None To: mir Subject: correction did you say? Message:

Mir, (as in the Space-station - no?) You say: '...I made no claims and drew no conclusions other than the number of people who support the views on this forum are far outweighed by the number of premies who value Knowledge and Maharaji.' You sound like you're quoting statistics. Based on what evidence, may I ask?

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 22:06:31 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: mir Subject: Is not a competence: A fake guru is a fake guru Message:

How can you say with certainty? Why is important, of value, for you to say that the people enjoying K are more than the ones who decided to leave a fake greedy master? Irrelevant. A teacher can -is- fake even if many, many misinformed people follow him.

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 22:11:39 (GMT) From: mir Email: None To: SB Subject: We're chasing our tails SB Message:

You are right numbers do not indicate truth any more than it indicates fakeness. And your point was?

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Date: Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 00:33:30 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: mir Subject: You tell me and we'll both know. (nt) Message:

(nt)

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 21:59:36 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: mir Subject: A slight correction SB Message:

Mir Wrote: And what the does the number of people on a mailing list have to do with the relevancy of Knowledge anyway? That kind of indicator applies to sheep and lemmings but not to people trying to know themselves. Whether one other person supports my view or a billion does not affect my personal experience whatsoever. The present numbers speak about how much of a good master he is: The numbers keep going down and there is nothing he can do about it. You? You don't need him. He doesn't even let you talk! Premies support a nasty greedy fake master. The K techniques do not belong to him and he makes people believe he is the living lord, when in reality he is just a greedy master who comercialized the tecniques of meditation he found somewhere. The book 'The Path of The Masters' gives the tecniques, for free, and also they can be obtain in many other books or gurus from India. I trip to India -if enlighment was your goal-could have saved you a lot of money over the years you spent following him. Look at 'our' beautiful master's words; he is so sweet an compassionate. (not) You make your own mind up Mir. Nobody can do it for you. Said in India ''ll tell you one thing. I reveal Knowledge. I have this Knowledge and I do not fool around with it. I have this Knowledge and I reveal it. If anybody thinks I'm fooling around with it, I tell you, he's just not a man. Lord knows what he is. I don't fool around. I reveal Knowledge. This is the same Knowledge for which the great sages tortured their bodies, sacrificied everything, and even gave up their lives. Still they could not get this Knowledge. I have that very Knowledge. I have this very Knowledge which Lord Krishna called 'Raj Vidya,' the king of all Knowledges. That's the Knowledge I have. And I have that Wealth of all wealths, so I'm rich. I'm not poor; I'm very, very rich. And I'm not a fool; I'm the greatest intellect because i have the king of all knowledges. But what I need now is faith and dedication. If you have those, then get yourselves together. And if you don't, then go wear bangles. So now I've nothing more to say. My blessings to everybody. Now I have come to India and I'll keep coming again and again. if you keep your faith and devotion in me, if you have taken a vow to yourself that you will definitely cooperate with Guru Mararaj Ji, then if I have to come every week I will come. I'll come every day if necessary. If I have to stay here, I'll even stay here. But all of you will have to get yourselves together. All of you will have to understand this is not a joke; this is something we have to do. Now that time has come. We can't turn back now. Now there's only one way, and that is in front of us.' You see? It applies to today too.The little bees are busy working-the PAMs- to support his BIG Lord trip.Don't fool your self. When a premie gets deeper in it he/she is trapped. You say - like many of us did- who cares, I am happy, but what about all the people who are going to get deceived by his trap? You do not care about it? I tell you what: He got you. The chains are invisible, nevertheless they exist. The only way to brake them is to start questioning your blind faith, thing that he of course hates. Don't leave room for doubts: HOW CONVINIENT!!! You do not need him. Please answer my questions from above, would you?

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 22:17:43 (GMT) From: mir Email: None To: SB Subject: Sure SB, whatever... Message:

You are entitled to your opinion as I am entitled to mine. All the best.

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 21:05:08 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: mir Subject: Get serious Message:

That kind of indicator applies to sheep and lemmings but not to people trying to know themselves. And Maharaji's the guy who's going to help them find out. Right? Don't make me laugh. Who are you kidding? Have YOU found out who you are, mir, thanks to Maharaji? Seriously? No more questions?

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 21:26:21 (GMT) From: mir Email: None To: Jerry Subject: No laughing matter Jerry Message:

...in a word, yeah.

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Date: Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 01:06:45 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: mir Subject: Right Message:

I'm laughing, mir.

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 20:38:30 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: mir Subject: Enjoying your freedom to express? n.t Message:

n.t.

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 07:43:56 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: mir Subject: A moral question Message:

Ok Mirror but would you show the whole picture honestly to this person to let them make up their own mind! Would you take them on a tour of M's house if you could.Would you proudly show them the 20 million dollar plane,the many million dollar yacht.How about the thousands of followers who barely experience a glimmer in meditation yet have such faith in M that they believe he will one day save them? How will you explain that you are not allowed to discuss your meditation experience because M doesn't trust you not to say the wrong things and put potential converts off? Of course there is an experience for many people who have knowledge but it is in no way realistic to say that there is no other real experience available elsewhere.Think and deliberate carefully. Hal

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 18:45:56 (GMT) From: mir Email: None To: Hal Subject: A moral question Message:

Ok Mirror but would you show the whole picture honestly to this person to let them make up their own mind! Would you take them on a tour of M's house if you could.Would you proudly show them the 20 million dollar plane,the many million dollar yacht. Well Hal lets first ask, ''Does his house or 'stuff' have any effect whatsoever on a premie's ability to experience Knowledge?'' I can say without any reservation it doesn't. For me the gift of Knowledge really has been precious beyond comparison. But having said that it really can have an effect. If you spend your time thinking about his stuff and stop spending time using Knowledge to explore the inner landscape YOU WILL GET CONFUSED! Next let me ask, ''Would you personally rather have a yacht, or have a means be able to explore the inner landscape?'' Well that depends on how valuable you appreciate the inner experience. Funny thing is, the people who get confused the most by his stuff are typically the ones who secretly would much rather have the yacht. How about the thousands of followers who barely experience a glimmer in meditation yet have such faith in M that they believe he will one day save them? How do YOU explain that Hal: Bad teacher, or bad student? I know we're all such a bunch of sincere and devoted seekers of truth that given the right tools how could we fail, right? Well even the MOST sincere have to struggle from time to time. But they persevere because that's the only thing they can do. As for M one day saving them, all the tools they need to be saved they have. How will you explain that you are not allowed to discuss your meditation experience because M doesn't trust you not to say the wrong things and put potential converts off? Well, I have heard the most outrageous advice given by premies about meditation, both to other premies and people interested. If you vest M with the responsibility for quality control, which so many here demand of him, how would you have him reign in that kind of misinformation? Why can't you trust that he knows what he wants for his students? Or do you want some of your own out of the deal? My advice would be to let your light shine, but don't let it get in the way of someone else's. Of course there is an experience for many people who have knowledge but it is in no way realistic to say that there is no other real experience available elsewhere. Well now you have given yourself the freedom to go out there and check it out Hal. I sincerely wish you the best of luck.

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Date: Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 01:57:02 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: mir Subject: The inner landscape, my ass Message:

That is very sad mir, that you think one (your experience) has nothing to do with the other (maharaji's wealth). Well of course M wants you to think that, so that he doesn't have to take any responsibility. Have you ever considered the possibility that you have been brainwashed really really well?

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Date: Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 02:38:59 (GMT) From: mirror Email: None To: Helen Subject: Yes Helen, there really is an inner landscape Message:

Hey Helen, lighten why don't you! If a man gives you food when you're starving to death, does the character of the man have any bearing whatsoever on the food's ability to save your life. Of course not! Your problem is you are obviously moralistic and judgmental. You would rather starve to death in your righteousness than eat from the hands of someone you deem distasteful. That is so far away from rational living.

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Date: Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 19:44:28 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: mirror Subject: Yes Helen, there really is an inner landscape Message:

If a man gives you food when you're starving to death, does the character of the man have any bearing whatsoever on the food's ability to save your life. Mir, I really find it hard to believe that you were on your last leg, and along came Maharaji to save you. That just doesn't compute. I try to imagine what your life would have been if he DIDN'T come along. Personally, I think you would have been better off. If you went looking for a savior and found none, what would you be left with? Yourself. Somehow, that would have had to pull you through, and you would have been a stronger person for it, I think, if you were able to dig deep enough on your own accord. Now, because Maharaji gave you an opportunity to be a wimp, and you took advantage of that, that's what you're stuck being. You're a man with no faith in himself because you chose to believe in another one who set himself up as your god.

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Date: Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 18:23:16 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: mirror Subject: the degradation of M Message:

Your 'starving to death' simile reminds me so much of satsang in the old days. I think we all 'have that thirst' for 'something more in this life.' Really, I do! I believe we all have a spiritual dimension to our lives. But mine was not satisfied through Maharaji. Just because you may have thirst or even be 'starving' out of want for a deeper, richer experience of life, does not mean you have to degrade yourself by accepting something which doesn't meet your own spiritual, intellectual, and moral criteria. I believe that to approach a spiritual leader out of spiritual desperation, and 'starvation' is not a good idea. Maybe that is a model in Hindi scripture, but I think it makes the person doing the approaching, too vulnerable to abuse. In fact Maharaji counts on us being stripped of all of our common sense and 'concepts' when we 'come to him' so that he can ' fill us up' with a new set of concepts which don't make sense. I think that is too much to ask of a person--to ask them to sacrifice right and wrong & their critical thinking for the sake of an experience. I think it makes people very lopsided indeed, and fit for not much in 'this world' except for kissing M's toesies. If you look at your relationship with Maharaji you will probably say that it exists (the relationship) on the 'inner plane' of existence. You have entrusted yourself to someone who you don't know. The proof is in your experience you will say, so round and round we go. I beleive in God and haven't forsaken the spiritual journey. But now I don't have to sacrifice my intellect or my well-being on the altar of a Guru I have never met. If you think that is overly moralistic and self-righteous so be it. You are entitled to your own beliefs. One day you may wake up and discern, with your intellect, that what you are getting is not worth what you are asked to give up. Maybe not. You may not have had to give up much, but alot of premies did and they woke up one day and realized that it wasn't worth trading in their self-esteem for an experience they could have anyway without all the baggage. so they don't follow M anymore. Just don't stop your own growth because you're afraid to venture out a bit into unknown territory. You're not a child after all.

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Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 21:30:48 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: freewheeling@bigfoot.com To: Helen Subject: the degradation of M Message:

Helen: Re: I believe we all have a spiritual dimension to our lives. But mine was not satisfied through Maharaji. Ah yes, that's really the bottom line isn't it? I mean, I can see how the Knowledge is 'special' or even how it might be 'God,' but in the end it was about as satisfying as a lunch of gleaming white sand. Awfully pretty but, well... sort of tasteless and gritty. I kept hoping that the relevance to my life, or anyone's life, would become clear... but it never did. BTW, there's been something wrong with my email for several weeks and I only just became aware of it. Should work OK now, though. --Scott

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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 04:25:25 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: to be fair Message:

Perhaps I haven't been completely fair in my judgment about the meditation. While I didn't find it very relevent to my everyday life, there were times whin it was inspiring and perhaps even beneficial. While watching a documentary tonite on schizophrenia I was reminded of the fact that my last schizophrenic episode more or less corresponds to when I began to practice meditation. Perhaps it was only coincidence, or perhaps I had some sort of acute schizophrenia, but there it is. Anyone who was around me in Spokane at that time will remember that episode. Since brother David Lane has investigated the meditation we refer to as 'Knowledge' from a more clinical perspective, and apparently found that a 'living perfect master' is unneccessary to the experience, it would be interesting to conduct some sort of trial to find out if it might have beneficial effects on others. I also recall, however, that the mental illness of some premies (like Valentine Vargas) grew worse while they meditated, so perhaps other things were involved in my spontaneous and permanent recovery. --Scott

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Date: Wed, Feb 23, 2000 at 22:03:29 (GMT) From: KMDARLING Email: darlingwave@aol.com To: Helen Subject: the degradation of M: YOU GO GIRL! Message:

YES YES, Helen! You said: 'Really, I do! I believe we all have a spiritual dimension to our lives. But mine was not satisfied through Maharaji. Just because you may have thirst or even be 'starving' out of want for a deeper, richer experience of life, does not mean you have to degrade yourself by accepting something which doesn't meet your own spiritual, intellectual, and moral criteria.' I would hate the premies or anyone else to think that all the ex-premies have abandoned any spiritual or evolutionary growth and that it is EITHER Miragey (= God and spirituality) OR become a cynical atheist, deny your deepest self etc. etc. (no offense to you cynical atheists!). No, as you say, the M trip just doesn't cut it as a spiritual path for some of us! Love Kathryn

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Date: Thurs, Feb 24, 2000 at 01:33:55 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: KMDARLING Subject: What arrogance! Message:

I would hate the premies or anyone else to think that all the ex-premies have abandoned any spiritual or evolutionary growth and that it is EITHER Miragey (= God and spirituality) OR become a cynical atheist, deny your deepest self etc. etc. (no offense to you cynical atheists!). Yeah, that's it for sure, Katie. Either you believe in spiritual foo foo or you're not 'growing' -- at least not in any 'evolutionary' sense (??). Face it, you're a pro. You make your money as a bay area 'healer'. Fine. Doesn't mean it's real. And guess what? Believe it or not, I don't think you know shit about my 'deepest self', although I'm sure you'd help me find it for a price. Right?

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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 03:14:20 (GMT) From: KMDARLING Email: darlingwave@aol.com To: Jim Subject: What arrogance! Message:

Sorry if you thought I was talking about you, or that the phrases cynical atheist, or deny deepest self went together. I was actually responding to what the premie was saying, implying that leaving MJ meant leaving the inner landscape or something like that (can't remember exactly). No, I don't think I know shit about your deepest self.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 24, 2000 at 00:27:08 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: KMDARLING Subject: the degradation of M: YOU GO GIRL! Message:

Thanks KM, that means a lot to me. No, I am not an atheist,and being so would not be being true to ME, which after all is why I left the cult. I enjoy your posts, keep up the good work! Helen

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Date: Wed, Feb 23, 2000 at 20:37:34 (GMT) From: cqg Email: None To: Helen Subject: the degradation of M - GREAT POST! Thanks (nt) Message:

the degradation of M - GREAT POST! Thanks (nt)

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 20:28:51 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: mir Subject: A moral question Message:

How much time do you spend exploring the inner landscape? Too much to ever think? How much of your time inside is spent thinking? Lots i'll bet.Why are you reading this forum? Trying to prove how strong and impervious you are? Do you think it is your sacred duty to protect your master from slanderous allegations? Does he approve of you defending him and arguing with us rotten vegetables? Hadn't you better check?I think you must be enjoying the chance to talk about M and your wonderful experience of knowledge. Strange that you're talking to people who don't want to know isn't it? Why don't you get round to see some friends and tell them about it,take them to a video maybe. You seem very clear on it to me,Maha needs people like you you know. Go out and tell the world. Truth be known ,I'll bet you're scared shitless of even mentioning the fact that you've got a guru aren't you? Except on this forum. So be grateful to these dissidents,traitors and defectors for giving you the chance to express publicly what a great devotee you are. All the best ,fellow human, Hal

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 20:41:23 (GMT) From: mir Email: None To: Hal Subject: A moral question Message:

No need to be bitter Hal. Why does my counterpoint to your all too easily ingested new-found objection to Maharaji cause such a reaction in you? I don't claim to be a great devotee, I just know that because some premies give up on it doesn't diminish its relevance. As I said, you are now free to pursue other things, as I am to post here if I choose to for whatever reason motivates me. And no I am not 'scared shitless' talking to people about Maharaji. But I'm not driven to keep my numbers up either. It happens when it is right.

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 20:50:44 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: mir Subject: A moral question Message:

Take a look in your mirror, mirror.You seem bitter about what Ive said on this forum,true or false? Maybe you're incapable of giving any honest answers. You sound just like someone writing from M's office.

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 21:33:34 (GMT) From: mir Email: None To: Hal Subject: A moral question Message:

Hey you can't use the 'why don't you look in the mirror' argument on the mirror. I feel no bitterness to you Hal whatsoever, and I am quite capable of giving an honest answer. Now your turn...why so bitter at me for challenging your new-found ethos? Honestly. I mean, you bought the party line lock, stock and two smoking barrels. Are you REALLY thinking for yourself? And are you capable of answering a question without asking another one?

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 23:04:36 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: mir Subject: A moral question Message:

Dear mir, I don't see why I shouldn't use the mirror on the Mirror.Are you unwilling to look at it? I wonder if you see yourself as superior because you have never entertained doubt in your mind. You certainly seem to be like a mirror to me personally. I identify your unquestioning loyalty to M as a part of myself. A part of myself that I'm not identifying with at present. I am very grateful to M in many ways. My life with K & M has been extremely valuable, and I've had wonderful experiences(see I'm not afraid to admit that, as you suggested earlier) My feeling is that to develop further as a loving human being I must reject many of the concepts around knowledge, not the knowledge itself. I've been expressing on this forum my honest thoughts about what is going on in the community of premies here. I haven't to my knowledge slandered M in any way, merely expressed my true feelings and thoughts. My dearest and closest friends are actually premies Mirror,and I have the utmost respect for the path they are choosing as I do for you and your choice. I have found that I cannot be in my integrity and continue my journey as a premie with so many questions as to the way M operates. I t just no longer suits me. I don't feel that there's anything better 'out there'. I still know that what I'm looking for is that which I've already experienced inside. My doubts about M are more to do with what I feel is his disrespect for my soveireignty and right to express myself. Also there is too much secrecy and exclusivity. I want to be a member of the human race and not feel superior because I'm on a so called spiritual path.I want to end the divisiveness inside of me and see love in everyone and every thing. I want to respect everyones path as being totally valid whether they have any belief in God or not, whether they meditate or not ,whether they are a premie or not. I am interested to know what attracts you to this forum. I started here because I didn't like seeing someone I loved and respected and who was a major part of my life being as you put it 'trashed'. Strange isn't it? There's no certainty but uncertainty. love Hal

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Date: Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 01:35:14 (GMT) From: mirror Email: None To: Hal Subject: A moral question Message:

I don't see why I shouldn't use the mirror on the Mirror.Are you unwilling to look at it? Hey Hal, I was just playing with you. No I love looking in mirrors, usually...can make sure what hair I have left is in place. I wonder if you see yourself as superior because you have never entertained doubt in your mind. No I don't think myself superior. Do you think yourself inferior for some reason? You certainly seem to be like a mirror to me personally. I identify your unquestioning loyalty to M as a part of myself. How do you know I never question? I am very grateful to M in many ways. My life with K & M has been extremely valuable, and I've had wonderful experiences(see I'm not afraid to admit that, as you suggested earlier). My feeling is that to develop further as a loving human being I must reject many of the concepts around knowledge, not the knowledge itself. I've been expressing on this forum my honest thoughts about what is going on in the community of premies here. I haven't to my knowledge slandered M in any way, merely expressed my true feelings and thoughts. Hal just in case you hadn't noticed, one of the goals of this site which you seem to now embrace is to impede, obstruct and generally bring Maharaji down. If that's what you want, fine, but you say he gave you something valuable. If so it just seems odd to me that you would publicly turn on him by supporting this site? My dearest and closest friends are actually premies Mirror,and I have the utmost respect for the path they are choosing as I do for you and your choice. And I do for you Hal, really. You sound like you are sincerely trying to break free from something that has held you back, and you MUST do that. But you also must realise you are probably stomping all over your friends hearts by supporting this site. That's because there is sooooo much misinformation, rumour and unfounded suspicion here that is passed off as truth and you are just adding to it. Can't you see that? I am interested to know what attracts you to this forum. I started here because I didn't like seeing someone I loved and respected and who was a major part of my life being as you put it 'trashed'. I drop in from time to time to see how the other half lives. More a fascination with the macabre.

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Date: Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 23:59:48 (GMT) From: stonor Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: a non-premie's confusion Message:

I came to this site today to try to better understand an e-mail friend who has contradicted himself a number of times in regards to his current status with Maharaji, as well as in many other areas. He has sent me a couple of Maharaji sites - but not this one. I have ultimately found that our dialogue has become quite disturbing in a number of ways. My concern lies in the fact that if he is a premie, he seems to be either a wolf in sheep's clothing, or confused and bitter. I am writing in particular to Deputy Dog, for three reasons: -the name rang a bell - I believe that DD may know this individual to some extent -DD appears to me to be a sincere seeker of Truth, and shows that through diversity of reading and compassionate responses -the synchronicity of the above Perhaps I should add that although a long-time and broadly-read self-described 'seeker', I have never been 'initiated'into any organization, but have known the desire to find a 'teacher' all my life. I have learned to find my spiritual friends and guides primarily through reading, life's experiences and my in(ner)tuition. I'm not sure how this works, I don't have any experience in participating in forums. Although I've directed this to Deputy Dog, of course I would be very interested in whatever anyone else might like to comment.

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 00:19:40 (GMT) From: corvuscorax Email: None To: stonor Subject: a non-premie's confusion Message:

Hey stonor, While i would not presume to answer for DD. Most advice you would get from here - this forum, that is, 'Stay confused' or similar. My philosophy is that, if there is a supreme being and that being may be likened to an ocean. Then we are all rushing to the sea along our own rivulets that join streams, to rivers, eventually to sea. Your course, my course, their courses are all different. do what you wish, but having done this trip. I don't think it so special, though i would not have changed it either. A paradox, perhaps. There are many teachers, all have the direct line to the supreme being. It seems to be about control. Like Brian said in the movie, 'Life of Brian'. 'You must think for yourself'. Peace bro' Jamie ----------------------

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 01:38:45 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: corvuscorax Subject: Practise what you preach, Jamie Message:

Think for yourself? Is that where you got your common package of spiritual nonsense? Complete with 'spiritual teachers', river-to-ocean schematics, 'paradox' and everything? You got that by thinking for yourself? That's a laugh.

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 15:33:35 (GMT) From: corvuscorax Email: None To: Jim Subject: I thought i were? Message:

If you say so bro' As far as i'm aware, it came to me after some kootenay green. However i bow to your wisdom in such matters and kiss your axe. C'mon up to the Queen's city and we'll have a dram. Jamie P.S. It would be, 'that i got it, thinking for myself'. Not 'by'. I wasn't by myself, no siree. -------------------

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 06:04:19 (GMT) From: Such a Email: None To: Jim Subject: silly little man Message:

Do you really think by thumping your chest with such abusive bravado it will make your stupid point view any more real? But then this gotta be the only place you can get other stupid people to listen to you, or worse get devotees. You remind me of the Morton Downey Jr., phenom. I wanna be there when you fall flat on your ass bud. Save me a table.

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 02:57:19 (GMT) From: Mr D Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk To: Jim Subject: You're a cult leader, Jim Message:

Corvuscorax, you wrote: 'There are many teachers, all have the direct line to the supreme being' Oh you mean like the incarnations of God I am talking about on my new web page. click here to go there and see how these teachers have a direct line to God. This new web page is still in its infancy, by the way. More will be added soon. I've yet to hear of any teacher with a direct line to a supreme being. That's pure fantasy, in my opinion. No, Jim isn't really a cult leader but it made you read this post.

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 15:38:28 (GMT) From: corvuscorax Email: None To: Mr D Subject: You're a cult leader, Jim Message:

Dave, You're right, poor editing! Should have read 'All claim to have the direct etc. Sarcasm just don't read well on the net. Jamie --------------------------

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 03:07:42 (GMT) From: Mu Email: None To: Mr D Subject: You're a cult, Jim the leader! Message:

HOHOHOH and HAHAHAHA Great little web site!

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 06:34:51 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: Mu Subject: to stonor Message:

Dear seeker, Thanks for your communication.I sincerely suggest that you carry on gaining your insights and inspiration from methods which don't involve giving your power and sovereignty away to any particular pathway or human being. If you want to meditate ther are many techniques available. The most universal is an observance of the breath moving in and out,up and down. Some people on this forum would tell you to forget all the seeking and get on with enjoying life,which is valid too. However, because some of us have this 'questing for an answer'nature,it's not something we can easily ignore. Have you read Rumi?This poet gives many people much inspiration and he doesn't recommend worshipping idols or images.I also recommend highly God I Am ,From Tragic to Magic by Peter.O. Erbe.May you find what you're looking for. No-one else can give it to you because you've already got it. Love Hal

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 18:34:53 (GMT) From: Jack Email: None To: Hal Subject: What do you do in Portugal? (ot) Message:

Hi Hal, I think my post re this got 'er em' erased. What do Brits do in Portugal? Is it easy for Brits to find work there? Do they have to learn to speak Spanish/Portugese? Love, Jack

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 20:03:17 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: Jack Subject: What do you do in Portugal? (ot) Message:

Well Jack, what do Brits generally do in Portugal? Sunbathe, walk on deserted beaches, play golfe,run bars, build vilas, sell vilas ,smoke Morrocan hash, take ecstasy and rave all night.Just about everything you could ever imagine but in a wonderful climate zone . The coldest it gets which is in January is 50ºF and the summer temp is 75-85º on an average day.Oh I forgot to mention boozing . Alcohol is extremely cheap ,I won't say how cheap because Anth and his friends will over run us! I'm feeling tired now Jack and typing is a very slow process for me, LOve Hal

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Date: Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 03:06:23 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Hal Subject: I'm there! Message:

I've always wanted to build villas. Say when, bro' and I'm in.

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Date: Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 07:30:58 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: Jim Subject: I'm there! Message:

Jim the vila building wouldn't suit you. May I suggest you select one of the other options like having a few drinks at a beach bar and absorbing the beauty of the female form?

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Date: Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 15:33:47 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Hal Subject: I'm there! Message:

Well actually I was thinking of bringing my own freindly female form and she's the one who's really into villa building. I'll sit around and relax andy day of the week but Lauire, well she's got be building something. Villa, patio, duplex, anything. Can't relax for a moment without a hammer in her hand.

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Date: Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 03:04:27 (GMT) From: Jack Email: None To: Hal Subject: Sound like 'Beach' the movie to me! (ot) Message:

But Hal What do YOU do in Portugal to support yourself or are you independently wealthy? What with the pristine beaches, the ecstasy and the raves it sounds just like Beach! Love, Jack

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Date: Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 07:53:03 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: Jack Subject: Sound like 'Beach' the movie to me! (ot) Message:

Haven't seen that movie Jack. I don't think I want to reveal too much personal info as the revenue might come after me! I wish I was of independant wealth but no I'm a small business owner(only 4'9' )

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Date: Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 21:36:26 (GMT) From: Jackie Email: None To: Hal Subject: Sound like 'Beach' the movie to me! (ot) Message:

Hi Hal! Just read down below that you were getting your children off to school. I know I'm a nosey ...ch but the I'm a women. I'm seriously thinking about moving to a different country. Do your children go to a British school or do they speak portugese/spanish? Thanks for the info, Jack

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Date: Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 23:21:32 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: Jackie Subject: Sound like 'Beach' the movie to me! (ot) Message:

Dear Jackie, My children attend an English private school which is not terribly expensive.I painted a very jocular picture of life here when in fact to someone seriously considering moving here I would have more serious advice. Unless one has plenty of money it can be very tough for foreignrs. We went throgh some extreme poverty for a few years. The Algarvian Portuguese are rather closed and suspicious of us. We tend not to make much deep contact with them. However there is a very eclectic mix of us immigrants. Many Brits and Germans move here to escape the grey Northern European weather. There are also a few Canadians but very few North Americans. We've met some lovely people and generally there is an excellent vibe amongst everyone. There's a fair amount of alternative lifestyle i.e. ageing hippies living very basically,without electricity or with solar energy, wind power etc. Also new agers into just about everything. The Brits tend to love it here because everything is so much lighter. We have 300 days a year sunshine which helps plenty to feel good. I was very surprised to find 16 premies in the small village we moved to, don't worry most of them are x now or rather unintense practicioners. After a while living here I realised that there are plenty of people who do not meditate or have any spiritual interests and yet are enjoying their lives fully. It may sound strange that I make that comment but folks always were rather grey and unhappy looking in the average English town.I was only mixing with premies for much of my life so I had a concept that only premies were truly enjoying themselves, absolute crap of course. It's a good country Jackie with an almost non existent level of violent crime. A woman can walk anywhere late at night without being molested and child abduction or crimes against children are extremely rare.We came here to give our kids a free and natural life,without fear and it's been very successful on that level. Portuguese is a really difficult language unlike Spanish ,due to the fact that the written language bears little resemblance to the sound of the speech. I hope this gives you some idea even though it's only my picture.Others would paint it differently of course. Maybe there is some interesting info on the net about Portugal? Love Hal

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 00:39:40 (GMT) From: stonor Email: None To: corvuscorax Subject: a non-premie's confusion Message:

Thanks for your reflections on my posting. I've come to about the same conclusions myself myself about the fractal nature of our individual paths. I particularly appreciate your identification of the control element in some 'teachers'. At this site I learned for the first time that M, like some other gurus, claimed(/S) to be the one and only source. I was particularly happy to read that you would not change what you chose of your own free will. I have noticed the anger in people when I take full responsibility for my choices and the subsequent outcomes. All of my choices have contributed to the consciousness I have today, and I would not want to diminish any of that!

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 15:46:51 (GMT) From: corvuscorax Email: None To: stonor Subject: a non-premie's confusion Message:

stonor, At least you were able to make sense of a confusing post. haste makes waste, Jamie ----------

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Date: Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 18:58:18 (GMT) From: Haldor Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Where the hell is everyone Message:

Hey!I join this forum and have a day where I can participate fully and there's nothing coming in. It's lonely out here in cyberspace. You haven't all been off at some secret Maharaji event have you?

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Date: Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 22:35:41 (GMT) From: Mike Email: None To: Haldor Subject: Not unless M likes to hike :-) Message:

Hal: Just came in from an overnighter in teh mountains. A very nice hike, but the weather started to look threatening so we cut it short...... he he he :-) Sometimes you will find the weekends a bit slow on the forum, especially when the weather starts to turn nicer. Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of Coconino Sandstone, I shall fear no evil..... they're just fossils, ya know. Take a hike.... The WILDERNESS rules! :-)

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 06:10:40 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: Mike Subject: Not unless M likes to hike :-) Message:

Sounds like you had a good day Mike.It's good to get out in the natural world and away from computer screens. I heard that a miracle happened in England yesterday which explained why the Brits weren't online.What was the miracle? They had a blue sky Love Hal

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 14:19:59 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Hal Subject: Look straight ahead nothing but blue skies... Message:

Hi Hal, You're right Hal, the blue sky I can see right now, I'm nominating for 'miracle' status. In reply the original question, I'm hiding out on a Cornish cliff for a few days, watching the weather change and listening to the waves and the Archers at the same time. It's an incredible day for February. Beautiful, warm, breezy and the obligatory blue sky with stumbling clouds. Time to saunter down to the village to buy home made scones, clotted cream, and a bottle of malt whiskey (for medicinal purposes of course). anth (I can see clearly now my brain is gone.)

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Date: Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 21:13:58 (GMT) From: cqg Email: None To: AJW Subject: I can see all obstacles in my wh..aaaaaaaaaayy(nt) Message:

I can see all obstacles in my wh..aaaaaaaaaayy(nt)

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Date: Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 19:05:37 (GMT) From: Robyn Email: None To: Haldor Subject: Where the hell is everyone Message:

Poor Haldor. :) I don't have much to say about m though, sorry. I'm working today and have to take frequent breaks so I'll look in on you again shortly. :) How are you making out with you new found freedom? Do you have people around you who are supportive? Love, Robyn

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Date: Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 19:15:18 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Where the hell is everyone Message:

Thanks Robyn,I don't feel so lonely now.I'm doing great. My wife is an ex so I have support.Were you ever married or partner to Steve Ormorod?

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Date: Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 19:30:21 (GMT) From: Robyn Email: None To: Hal Subject: Where the hell is everyone Message:

Dear Hal, No, Steve Talmadge was my only Steve, he was a good one though, my favorite relationship really. :) I'm glad your wife is an ex also. I am sure support really helps a lot as it does with most things in this life. Is Steve O, English? I am American, never been over there although I am dying to now, not to see m but to meet all his ex-devotees! :) Car dancing to Tom Waits on my hour long drive to work today I was thinking about missing the Latvian Club dance on 2/12. :) My ex-premie friend from England who doesn't post here said you are all quite an amiable lot. :) I have come to the same conclusion from those of you I've met here. Love, Robyn

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Date: Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 19:03:37 (GMT) From: Jack Email: None To: Haldor Subject: Where the hell is everyone Message:

Hi Hal, I've been enjoying your posts. Seems everyone else has got a life! Here we are Sunday morning or whatever banging the keys desparately to get our voice heard! Well a man's gotta do what he's gotta do. Can you tell this post is written by a woman? Really I enjoy your intelligent posts and I'm glad at last you are being listened to because I know how difficult it was to be heard in 'The Cult' Love, Jackie

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Date: Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 19:18:04 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: Jack Subject: Where the hell is everyone Message:

Thank you Jackie, No I couldn't tell before but now I feel that lovely feminine compassion,it makes sense.

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Date: Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 12:46:47 (GMT) From: selfpretence Email: None To: Everyone Subject: selfpretense Message:

pre-tense.com//http/englishproper

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Date: Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 13:26:49 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: selfpretence Subject: Prize for the most impossible thread ?n.t. Message:

nt

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Date: Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 11:19:32 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: Everyone Subject: service Message:

Apparently 30% of active premies are involved in doing service.I assume that most of this so called service is donating money for the yacht etc. After all,how many premies does it take to put a video in a machine or stand on the door ushering. They'll soon have 3 premies ceromoniously carrying the video down the aisle and placing it in the machine and 5 premies on each entrance,all for the 2 new people attending.

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Date: Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 16:41:34 (GMT) From: Djuro Email: None To: Hal Subject: service Message:

You are missing!

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Date: Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 23:34:26 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: Djuro Subject: Thank God I am missing nt Message:

ooooo

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 07:40:09 (GMT) From: Fred Email: None To: Hal Subject: service Message:

Having never gone past their aspiring aspirant list and happy in my ignorance(thanks in part to regular reading of this forum, and mostly because events and premies were just sooo creepy)...I laughed out loud about your comments on the setting up process. It struck me as so weird that it would take three or four people there an hour or more early to set up a TV and some flyers -- sometimes for nobody other than themselves. There was one time for an introductory event when there was not a single person there who hadn't helped in the setting up and one guy STILL went through the whole intro spiel. I actually looked around the room and where his eyes were looking...wondering who the hell he was talking to. I guess its the bliss of ceremony?

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 18:24:26 (GMT) From: Jack Email: None To: Fred Subject: Are you in my community? Message:

Hi Fred, First off, you stole my name! So now I'm Jack! I think you must be in my community because your picure of the Introductory Event was just like my community. By the way if you weren't setting up and you weren't new why were you there? By the way: How many premies does it take to screw in a lightbulb? four to put it in, four to make sure the four are not in their heads and four to make sure they are doing it for miraji four to take it out again because it doesn't work four to zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Jack

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Date: Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 22:58:35 (GMT) From: an ex-Ex Email: None To: Hal Subject: service Message:

Dear Hal, What's fairly amazing to me is how quick you are to believe what you read here, so much of which is small, floating figments of gaseous, cyber-imagination...how quick you are to lose even the least amount of respect for M, with whom you presumably had SOME experience all those years and how quickly the addiction to posting kicks in. Perhaps things are moving a bit slowly in real-world Portugal. You'll find out how real your new 'friends' are if you start to discuss any good, great or wonderful things that may have happened to you in connection with M & K. There is just about zero tolerance for that. Enjoy your new club, if you can manage to trash Maharaji and feel good about it.

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 07:24:43 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: an ex-Ex Subject: service Message:

Dear ex-ex, Sorry if it rocks your boat a bit.I havn't said anything about M which isn't from my own feelings and thoughts. I've been feeling for many years a dissatisfaction with the 'naffness'of what M offers to people.The lack of real expression allowed to the average premie,the very poor reactions of people who I have shown videos of M to. As I have explained it wasn't an overnight decision or as you would see it ,betrayal and defection. I am still fond of M and grateful for him showing me how to go inside.I have had experiences of what he's talking about and I feel no bitterness at all (as yet).I just in my integrity cannot recommend the path of knowledge and M to any true seeker any longer. I think that M is sincerely deluded in thinking that his is the only way and the divisiveness of that is , in my view not a positive expression of Truth. I am a romantic and dreamer and have always wished for the evolution of consciousness in myself and on the planet. At one time many, many years ago I thought that everyone would see the glory of the 'perfect master' as I had.I not too long ago showed an introductory video to a couple of good friends who are very open and lovely people.One of them had a fantastic sleep full of loud snoring.The other friend,who had been in the past an aspirant,found some inspiration in it but has decided that her own experiences are enough for her. She has seen light,heard inner sound and been overcome with feelings of love for God.She refers to it as the Christ energy. I'm not as against M or premies as it may seem and I'm not swayed by others on this forum into hatred and bitterness.I could write lots more on this but I'm not such a great writer.Let it suffice to say that i can no longer keep my blinkers on and I cannot recommend the insipid,sycophantic pathway of Maharaji as anyway forward for an individual or the planet.I'm willing to discuss this further but I warn you it may shake your apparently solid foundation in your chosen pathway. Best wishes to you Hal

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 22:57:48 (GMT) From: ex-Ex Email: None To: Hal Subject: service Message:

You find it insipid, I've found it inspired and powerful through the 70's, 80's, 90's, and now, 00's. Not that I've always bothered to stay connected. I haven't. But when I have, it's undeniable. My point was not about your choices, that's up to you. My point was about gullibility and how quickly you and others parrot and repeat the party line on this page and the illusion of support when you agree with the extremely narrow viewpoint expressed here. I repeat...the minute that you deviate from the position of knocking Maharaji or call into question the quite dubious 'facts' presented here, you'll be standing by yourself. In an instant. And verbally abused 'til you succumb or leave. My intention is not to debate with you or anyone else. It's just seeing you (and Anon) going off on this thing about being Maharaji's 'enemy', which is one of the most blatant inventions of this page, when you're both obviously warm-hearted souls that's troubling. At least try to separate what You've felt and heard yourself from what is pure bullshit repeated enough times as to acquire the veneer of authenticity. We (all people) still are suckers for the 'if it's printed, it must be true' syndrome. In cyber-space there is no mechanism to support the reality of anything anybody says. It becomes like the game Telephone, where people repeat phrases and by the time it's gone around the circle, the original phrase is long gone. If I printed an item about Maharaji diverting millions of $ that were earmarked for a charity for orphans into buying himself a nuclear submarine, within minutes someone named Angry would be frothing about it and a few others would be ready to beat someone they used to love with a big stick like a piñata. It would join the other damning factoids that float around here. Never mind if it's true, it helps to build our 'case!' Yeah, let's get the bastard! In my estimation, none of this has anything at all to do with Maharaji. He's just become a convenient, mythical target. Even Jean-Michel, the collector and purveyor of documents and one-time almost instructor, shows absolutely zero indication that he knows the man he's talking about. No insight into his personality or where he's at AT ALL. Just a case. Building a case. You can do it to anyone. All that being said, if you've come to the conclusion yourself that M is just this greedy, little guy who's doing what he's doing for the purpose of continually upgrading his transportation and/or plumbing, then at least it's Your conclusion. I took a good, long look at that and as obvious and easy an approach as that is to try and explain away all of this, in the end it makes no sense to me and doesn't jibe with what I've seen and felt, repeatedly and stretched over a very long period of time. That's what I feel. What you feel is different and I respect that. It would be lovely if there were more tolerance and respect for others on this site but I ain't holding my breath. Just be careful what you believe in cyber-space. It's mostly gas. I wish you well also.

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 01:33:48 (GMT) From: chris Email: None To: an ex-Ex Subject: service (ex-Ex) Message:

ex-Ex wrote: You'll find out how real your new 'friends' are if you start to discuss any good, great or wonderful things that may have happened to you in connection with M & K. There is just about zero tolerance for that. Enjoy your new club, if you can manage to trash Maharaji and feel good about it. You speak with forked tongue ex-Ex. Is that why you went ' back?' Because you couldn't handle the next step 'forward?' Change always brings challenges. There's still a lot of unresolved bitterness here. That has been my experience of those who are initiated by any guru - that they become part of a exclusive 'club' and outsiders are to be pitied or scorned - same pattern here. Seems the anti-thesis of what this kind of thing is supposed to be all about Ultimately.

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 00:54:14 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: an ex-Ex Subject: Doesn't look like it Message:

ex wrote: What's fairly amazing to me is how quick you are to believe what you read here, so much of which is small, floating figments of gaseous, cyber-imagination...how quick you are to lose even the least amount of respect for M, with whom you presumably had SOME experience all those years and how quickly the addiction to posting kicks in. Perhaps things are moving a bit slowly in real-world Portugal. That 'SOME experience' sounds suspicious... Why anybody who was ever a devotee and ceses to be one would respect Mr Rawat? Please, give one, just one reason. Me, particularly has NO respect whatsoever for such a bastard as he truly is, deceiving people as today, 2000, simply because he was deceived by his own father? Maybe his father didn't know any better, but what is Maharaji's excuse? He want the profitable bussiness of giving K he has, that's all. Maharaji is not the giver of any experience premies may have. He gave supossedly a gift, but wants people's soul and all reverences and devotion en return? You don't sound like an ex.

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 01:17:46 (GMT) From: Amari Email: None To: SB Subject: Doesn't look like it Message:

Dear SB: I you look more closely, you'll notice that it's 'ex-Ex' who wrote that post, thereby implying that s/he was an ex, but obviously s/he has taken a U-turn and rejoined the cult. You're right...s/he is not an ex.

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 01:30:23 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Amari Subject: Doesn't look like it Message:

Thanks, I didn't see that. hahaha :)

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 00:11:09 (GMT) From: stonor Email: None To: an ex-Ex Subject: service Message:

Yes, this is what I'm finding in many areas: this endless desire to trash indiscriminately the others on both sides, virtually ignoring the individual free wills involved. it seems that you have personal experience on all three(?) sides of the fence. Any insights to share?

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 01:31:31 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: stonor Subject: What the fuck do you know about any of this? Message:

'trash indiscriminately'? I take it you know all about the cult such that you can tell how much discrimination has or hasn't been used assessing such and such facts, right? Otherwise, of course, for all you know, the people here are trashing the cult with great discrimination. How would you know?

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 01:38:33 (GMT) From: stonor Email: None To: Jim Subject: no need to get abusive Jim Message:

I was referring to the general 'us vs. others' that seems to be everywhere today. You may take my comment to ex.Ex as slightly sarcastic if you wish.

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 01:41:22 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: stonor Subject: what? Message:

Then I don't know what the hell you're saying. Care to try again?

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 02:14:04 (GMT) From: stonor Email: None To: Jim Subject: attempted reply to: what? Message:

It seems that ex-Ex has been jumping in and out a few times, yet he's still trashing others himself. Did he trash/threaten others in all three positions - insider, ex-insider, and returned insider? I'm still not sure if you'll understand. Even if I haven't been 'in', I have known those that have/are, and I have had my own brushes with the issue. I am trying to understand too, Jim.

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 15:17:47 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: stonor Subject: attempted reply to: what? Message:

I understand you and yes it would be interesting to hear a reply from double x , perhaps soon to become triple x. But they havn't replied to me either. Strange when someone comes out from behind a wall to have a little sneer yet then won't respond anymore.

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Date: Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 12:22:45 (GMT) From: Dave Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk To: Hal Subject: service Message:

That's funny, Hal. By the way, it's getting cold out here and I'm running out of air.

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Date: Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 04:03:25 (GMT) From: Mu Email: None To: Everyone Subject: At last - enlightenment for the masses! Message:

Here is a real 'down to earth' method to achieve the 'ultimate experience'. Deputy Dog should 'try this at home'! :-0 Bundtpan HAHAHAHAH and HOHOHOHO!

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 21:26:46 (GMT) From: cqg Email: None To: Mu Subject: At last - enlightenment for the masses! Message:

Don't they mean: 'If battery has been ingested, hallucogenics may not be necessary'?

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Date: Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 05:16:45 (GMT) From: Mu Email: None To: cqg Subject: No refunds, I'm sure. (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 05:35:42 (GMT) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Mu Subject: Enlightenment for the masses? Message:

Mu, No thanks. Never been a big fan of makyo. -- Dep

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Date: Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 05:05:49 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: Mu Subject: At last - enlightenment for the masses! Message:

Yes indeed.Well found Mu.This could be just what I need to replace M and K.HAHAHA HOHOHO.

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Date: Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 07:13:36 (GMT) From: Mu Email: None To: Hal Subject: At last - enlightenment for the masses! Message:

Just watched the movie 'Phenomenon'. Good stuff! John Travolta's character says it well. 'All we need is already inside of us. We just got to clear away the crap. It's hard work and nobody can do it for us.' If you haven't seen the movie, do. But I warn you, it can be a real tear jerker! From me, Mu the eternal: Laugh when you're happy! Cry when you're sad! Screw when you're horny! And, try not to be bad! :-) Too bad Dep doesn't want to try the bundt pans. He may be afraid to break free... He must be too used to having his brain on mahahaconji. ;-) Great laugh there, Haldor the Baldor! HAHAHAHAH and HOHOHOHO!

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Date: Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 19:18:46 (GMT) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Mu Subject: Mu, you use them first! (nt) Message:

Mu, you use them first! (nt)

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Date: Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 13:50:37 (GMT) From: Angry Email: None To: Mu Subject: Travolta Message:

Isn't Travolta into some new age crap or EST ?

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Date: Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 17:28:28 (GMT) From: Robyn Email: None To: Angry Subject: Travolta Message:

Dear Angry, Who cares, what a cutie! I LOVED him in Michael, dancing with that long coat on to hide his wings. What a doll. :) Love, Robyn

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 21:29:20 (GMT) From: king of URK?make that URL Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Travolta Message:

You don't remember me, do you?

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Date: Thurs, Feb 24, 2000 at 22:35:13 (GMT) From: Robyn Email: None To: king of URK?make that URL Subject: Travolta Message:

Your Majesty, I do remember making the statement but not who I made it to, I guess you are not one of the 2 people I thought I may have said it to, cqg or michael. I try not to think about it to much as it could drive me nuts! I could look in the old posts but somehow it doesn't seem worth all that effort since maybe some day it will just hit me like a lead brick! Sorry but my frailties are compounding as the years pile up. :) Love oh mysterious one, Robyn

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Date: Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 16:31:43 (GMT) From: JB Email: None To: Angry Subject: Travolta/ Scientology big time (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 18:57:09 (GMT) From: Jack Email: None To: JB Subject: Travolta/ Scientology big time (nt) Message:

Dear All, As I mentioned in my post that 'hem hem' got deleted, John Travolta is starring in Battleship Earth, a science fiction movie based on the book of the same name by L. Ron Hubbard founder of Scientology. Appartently the toys sold from the movie & the movie itself will make Scientology millions of dollars. I expect there would be lots about Battleship Earth on the www. John Travolta doesn't hide the fact that he is a Scientologist and helps to give it quite a good name I suppose. Love, Jack

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Date: Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 19:00:14 (GMT) From: Jack Email: None To: All Subject: Battlship Earth and Scientology (see prev.post) Message:

There is text on my last post about Battleship Earth. Jack

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 02:27:24 (GMT) From: Mu Email: None To: Jack Subject: Battlship Earth and Scientology (see prev.post) Message:

Yah - old Johnny boy is into that scientology crapola. Still makes good movies though.

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Date: Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 03:32:46 (GMT) From: Brian Email: brian@tigerriver.com To: Everyone Subject: New Journey Message:

Here's the link to Tom Reece's new Journeys entry. He also added a White Pages listing.

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Date: Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 04:25:18 (GMT) From: Joey Email: None To: Tom Subject: Thanks Tom, but you've got me wonderin.... Message:

Well, like lovers do, we remember what drawed us to it and we remember why we walked away. I think it's a riot though about all the disputes are on 'the light'. Sorry Tom, but my own 'dipute' or beef with m and his cult has nothing to do with 'the light'. I went higher and higher into it, and at the same time it was falling all around me. I would really love to know what you mean by that. It was a light that drenched you and I'm confident that when I pass away some day.... I'll see it again. Hey, there are are alot of people out there who would give an arm and a leg to be drenched by a light, that otherwise they'd have to wait till they die to witness. Doesn't sound like a bad deal to me. I'm just wondering why you ever left.

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Date: Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 05:58:16 (GMT) From: Brian Email: brian@tigerriver.com To: Joey Subject: Light Message:

Hey, there are are alot of people out there who would give an arm and a leg to be drenched by a light, that otherwise they'd have to wait till they die to witness. Doesn't sound like a bad deal to me. I'm just wondering why you ever left. I can't speak for Tom about why he left, and he didn't touch on that in his Journey. But I can say why I left, even after having had a similar experience. Before I received Knowledge I had this sort of experience in satsang one night. I took that as an indication that I was definitely in the right place, and it felt like for the first time in my life that was true. I never actually have gotten over it, and I think I know what Tom means when he says that he is certain that he'll see it again when he dies. That was my experience, and it took place with nobody else in the room even aware that I was experiencing it. It had nothing to do with Prempal Rawat, yet I came to attribute it to him because everything said in satsang was spoken in the context of Guru Maharaj Ji's 'grace', 'power', etc. If it had happened in church I would have been sure that Jesus had just revealed Heaven to me. Or, more in keeping with my general mindset at the time, I would have taken it as confirmation from God that I WAS Jesus. I realize that many people who were involved with Maharaji and left never had any such experiences, but only because they now tell me that in the forum. I assumed that everyone had some sort of strong personal experience, or why would they have even gotten involved? Seeing 'divine light' isn't an experience that is exclusive to any religion, belief system, or meditation practice. The Rosecrucians (sp?) run ads in magazines that speak about 'A Split-second In Eternity'. People in Ekankar (again, sp? - I gotta buy a cult dictionary) have seen it. For those who never have, it's a figment of my creative mind or whatever. For those who have that I've spoken to, it's an underlying reality of life. But I left because Maharaji isn't the source of that experience in my life - I am. He claims exclusive rights to show meditation techniques that can, at best, aid people in having that experience, and now exclusive rights to even TALK about that experience, but he does so out of self-pretense and a desire to keep the cult cash flowing in.

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Date: Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 16:36:25 (GMT) From: JB Email: None To: Brian Subject: Light/ Don't forget Quackers.Org (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 09:19:03 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: Brian Subject: Light Message:

Well said Brian,My feeligs(and thoughts)exactly.

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Date: Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 12:16:24 (GMT) From: Mr D (unenlightened) Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk To: Hal Subject: Prefering the darkness Message:

I've never understood this thing about light, never. I don't understand what is supposed to be so good about 'light' and any light I've seen in meditation was just some sort of optical light. Sure, I've known people who've seen some light. My sister (now deceased) once had a NDE where she saw in her own words, 'A very bright light but it didn't hurt your eyes.' She was never a premie, of course. I was a premie for years and never got this thing with seeing a light. My optical light was 'OK' but I wouldn't get all excited about it and in the end, stopped doing the technique because the light was becoming a nuisance and wouldn't go away. Out of all the people who post on here, a few have seen some phenomenon of a bright light and have mentioned it here. Scott and VP come to mind. Most others have remained unenlightened. Just an observation.

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Date: Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 13:36:53 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: Mr D (unenlightened) Subject: Prefering the darkness Message:

Can't say that I saw light inside on a regular basis, except when tripping. A few times without taking substances though I didn't just see light but became it. Some of us have a fascination with the mystical aspects of life , some don't,either way I dont think it really matters. Just different folks different strokes. Those eyeball pressing techniques didn't work for me. I dropped them quickly as it always felt like a distraction. I saw light without doing that,so it wasn't just a result of pressing on the optic nerve. I really don't give that stuff much importance though.I certainly don't think it's a special revelation that prem pal gives.

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 20:10:16 (GMT) From: cqg Email: None To: Hal Subject: As 'the Proclaimers' once sang: Message:

As 'the Proclaimers' once sang: (something along the lines of:) 'Well I've been stumbling in the dark for years And the light just made me blind ...'

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Date: Sat, Feb 19, 2000 at 23:31:21 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Wanted: Early 70's Knowledge Packet Message:

Does anyone have a copy of the ubiquitous early '70's k packet? As I recall it had: 1) 8 x 10 two-tone cheap altar starter picture of one fat, greasy hamster in what might have been a white, unlaced straight-jacket; 2) A copy of the FIVE SUGGESTIONS, to wit: Ignore my Older Brother Listen to the Words but don't Think About Them Do What I say or Die Don't leave or you will Die Give it a Chance or It's Gonna Rot in you like a big fuck, you big fuckin, motherfucker Something like that.. Then there was THE LETTER! in which m says something like: 'I am the Dungeonmaster! You will play by the rules or you will die! Give me the reigns of your life or you will die! Give me the peace in your heart and I will add it to all the other bits of peace and made a really big one. Do this or you will die! If you are particularly pretty or wealthy, stay in touch. If you are a mind I will kill you! If you are a mind you will die! Thank you very much, Sant Ji Maharaji' It's been a while and I'm just going by memory. Maybe they added in the ashram schedule too? If someone has this I'd like to see it. JM would probably want it for his museum too, I bet. The reason I ask if that it came up in a conversation with a premie who's asked me if I had it. The main thing, of course, is THE LETTER!

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Date: Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 13:30:32 (GMT) From: Archive Goblin Email: None To: Jim Subject: Wanted: Early 70's Knowledge Packet Message:

DIVINE UNITED ORGANISATION Dear Premies, Congratulations! You have just received Knowledge and I hope you understood it too. You know this Knowledge is like food. It can just be there and will be of no use unless eaten; it will be of benefit to no one. It's only going to be worthwhile if you eat it. Only then can you enjoy it. Since now you have received this Knowledge it is your duty to do meditation, service and satsang, and understand this Knowledge through these means. Let me also remind you and caution you about something and that is your mind. This mind is really going to be freaked out because Knowledge is its antidote. And therefore in the future this mind might really begin to bother you. But do not be bothered, just keep on truckin', just keep on going. Believe it, it will certainly go away. Further, keep in touch. Love is everlasting. Happy meditation, satsang, and service. Yours, Guru Maharaji Ji DUO INTERNATIONAL 511 Sixteenth Street, Denver, Colorado 80202, (303) 623-8280 Telex #45925 You Are Disciples Now Satsang of Shri Guru Maharaj Ji, Hampstead Town Hall, England, October 31, 1971. So realise that first of all your destination, your aim was to receive this Knowledge, but now once you have received it your aim should be to meditate upon it. And now, because you are always meditating, also, now your aim should be to do satsang and service. Because no service, no servant - no servant, no humbleness - no humbleness, not a man. And not a man, not a disciple. So you cannot be a disciple at all. If you want to be a real human being first of all you have to be a servant. And how can one become a servant? By service. You are disciples now. You have received the shelter and now you are afraid of nothing in this world. You have received the shelter of such a thing, you are wearing a bullet-proof coat, such a coat that even when bullets come to you they won’t harm you. Egos come to you, they cannot touch you. So you are completely sheltered and completely protected. Don’t, don’t go out of the shelter. Always try to be in the shelter. Otherwise this ego is ready; you cannot see the clouds of ego but you can feel the rain of ego. As soon as you go out of the shelter you are completely drowned in egos. And you must have received the terrible experiences of these things, of egos, of suffering. How does suffering exist, do you know? Many people ask me, if God is good from where did evil come, and what is evil first of all? Evil is nothing. Evil is the ignorance of our mind. That is, we are ignorant of what is good. So now what is the opposite of good? Bad. And when we are ignorant of good, automatically we are known to bad, and bad is evil. Bad is evil. So naturally we are immersed in evil. But once we realise, once we catch a hand of Satguru, nothing now. We have got that communication which cannot break. Wherever we go, under the sea, on the moon, on the sun, on all the planets, it cannot break. This is strong communication. Wherever we go we can just talk into this walkie-talkie and call Satguru from any distance we want. Because God is omnipresent there is no problem in calling God from anywhere you like. You just have to speak into this walkie-talkie. This walkie-talkie is fixed into us at the beginning, and this is our heart. Whenever we want to, call God and God Himself comes. Whatever we say is answered. What is truth? What is that existence which is making everything exist in this world? Everything is existing today because of something, so what is that something? That something is everywhere. And that something is beyond nothing. And that something is always. And that something is something. But what is this something? This is the Holy Word of God that we have all received. And if we have received it, what should we do now? We should always be obliged to him who has given it to us. Because we wouldn’t have been able to get this Word by ourselves. It is by somebody’s Grace that it is given. So try to oblige him. Try to always be under his guidance. I can teach a horse how to be in rein. I can make a hole in his nose and put a rein there. And I can take that rein in my hand or I can leave it alone. Now if I leave it the horse will go wherever he likes. But if I keep the rein in my hands I won’t let that horse go anywhere he likes. I will only take him on the road, on the path. I won’t take him on the rocks where he will be damaged, where his body will be damaged and the chariot will also be damaged. So you’ve got this rein, and if you hand this rein to me I will guide you. I’m ready to guide you. But if you are not ready, keep it with you. It’s not a problem. Keep it with you. And don’t think this will be a problem for me, this is not a problem. If you want to give your pride to me, give. If you want to give your ego to me, give. I am ready to receive it. If you don’t want to keep it with you, give it to me. I can make utilisation of it. And what is that? I’ll again convert it to something, then I’ll give it back to you. It will help you. So whatever extra you have got, give it to me. And the extra thing you have got is your mind. Give it to me. I am ready to receive it. Because egos trouble you, but they don’t trouble me. Give them to me. So whatever extra you have in your mind, or your mind itself even, give it to me. I can bear it. Guru Maharaj Ji has given me so much, so much resistance that I can resist everything that is bad for me. It won’t affect me. So just try to be holy and try to be a good devotee, a perfect devotee of that Guru who is Himself perfect, who is really perfect.

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 21:43:10 (GMT) From: cqg Email: None To: Archive Goblin Subject: So this is what got us hooked? *!*!*!BEST OF*!*!* Message:

So this is what got us hooked? *!*!*!BEST OF*!*!* I remember this 'satsang' Holy boke .... can you believe we fell for this???: 'If you want to be a real human being first of all you have to be a servant.' 'If you want to give your pride to me, give. If you want to give your ego to me, give. I am ready to receive it. If you don’t want to keep it with you, give it to me. I can make utilisation of it.' 'Evil is the ignorance of our mind. That is, we are ignorant of what is good.' SO THE MIND IS GOOD AFTER ALL???

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Date: Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 19:17:47 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Archive Goblin Subject: QUESTION FOR DEPUTY DOG Message:

And now, because you are always meditating, also, now your aim should be to do satsang and service. Because no service, no servant - no servant, no humbleness - no humbleness, not a man. And not a man, not a disciple. So you cannot be a disciple at all. If you want to be a real human being first of all you have to be a servant. And how can one become a servant? By service. Dog, This was your guru talking to you when you were initiated. You received this letter when you got k. A letter from your guru. So here's my question to you: Did you ever try to be a servant?

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Date: Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 19:14:51 (GMT) From: Jack Email: None To: Archive Goblin Subject: F....ing Unbelievable! Message:

That is f...ing unbelievable!!!! Well done Jim for fishing out this gem. Jack

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Date: Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 13:55:57 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Archive Goblin Subject: the archive keeper: Get it together Message:

and I'll have it on my website. Arti was also inside, the commandments, what else? And the nice white enveloppe !!

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Date: Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 18:07:05 (GMT) From: Archive Goblin Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: the archive keeper: Get it together Message:

Bloody hell! You guys are a tough crowd to please. Hasn't arti been posted before? And if you think I'm going to sit here typing out all that crap you've got another thing coming, Mssr Kahn. :-) The white envelope has a black and white photo of M.and the missus cuddling baby Wadi but I've no scanner so you'll just have to imagine it. Anyway, by way of encore here's the commandments and that vow, verbatim. Get ready to cringe. THE VOW Oh my Guru Maharaj Ji, I dedicate myself to You. I am weak and ignorant and filled with the imputities of this world. Oh Guru Maharaj Ji, through Knowledge please purify me of the impurities I possess. Reveal to me the Knowledge of all Knowledges. Strengthen me, uplift me and reveal the truth within inside of me. Bring me from hate to love, darkness to light, death to immortality. I will follow your direction and will never reveal this Knowledge to anybody for any reason. I will keep in contact with You through my devotional love - satsang, meditation and service. Thank you. THE COMMANDMENTS Do not put off until tomorrow what you can do today. Constantly meditate and remember the Holy Name. Leave no room for doubt in your mind. Always have faith in GOD. Never delay in attending Sat Sang.

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Date: Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 20:43:16 (GMT) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Jim Subject: The Vow and Commandments Message:

Thanks Jim, The Vows The first vow is kind of vague as far as contracts go. For example what 'does dedicate myself to You' mean? It's a unilateral contract and a vague one at that. A gratuitous promise like this is also not legally binding. Second, I was weak and ignorant and filled with the impurities of this world. Most of impurities were in the form of hash resin. I was a pretty confused guy carrying around a lot of useless spiritual concepts, looking for truth in my rational mind, and K really turned me on, saved me. I was ready to receive the Knowledge of all Knowledges. I'd done enough reading and pushed the intellectual trip as far I could. Painted cakes do not satisfy hunger, the menu is not the meal, etc. As far as 'Strengthen me, uplift me and reveal the truth within inside of me. Bring me from hate to love, darkness to light death to immortality,' that sounds like a pretty good deal to me. At the very least these are good sentiments, pretty noble, lofty aspirations. We are not talking about Satanism here, are we? 'I will follow your direction and will never reveal this Knowledge to anybody for any reason.' I do remember that vow and have kept my promise about revealing the techniques. 'I will follow your direction' is also a little vague, and as you know a vague offer may prove to be no offer at all, and the intended acceptance of it cannot then form a contract. 'I will keep in contact with you through my devotional love - satsang, meditation and service.' The devotional love was probably my weakest link, but I did do SSM. As mentioned in one of e-mails however, I did not consider taking 30 minutes to damp mop a chair to be genuine service. That was make-work IMO. The Commandments As far as the commandments 'Constantly meditate and remember the Holy Name,' and 'Leave no room for doubt in your mind,' these too are pretty noble and lofty goals. Easier said than done, buy why not set the bar high? No Jim, I don't see anything here even remotely compelling me to turn into a grovelling, mind-fucked zombie. There are, I'm sure you agree, many worse vows and commandments out there. Pretty benign IMO. And I never felt any pressure to toe the company line which I didn't as you know. There was the age factor. You were just 19 when you got K and I was older. Maybe that's the difference right there. You are pissed off and angry at Maharaji and as I've said before, I'm not going to say you are wrong. That's your experience! I also happen to think that you are basically a good guy (premie lurkers will probably cringe at that one). And this site has every right to be here. On Haldor's suggestion I read Who's Journey and was quite moved. There is a lot of genuine, heart felt and authentic emotion expressed here. IMO the key thing here is our own individual experience of the techniques. Without us there is no Knowledge. I like M because he inspires me to keep on keeping on. The freer I am from hatred, greed, sadness, ignorance, resentment, and anger, the more I will enjoy this existence and the more my life will be for the benefit of all. I will always serve Knowledge. -- Dep

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Date: Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 20:30:35 (GMT) From: cqg Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: 'We are not talking about Satanism here, are we?' Message:

Dep, you say: 'We are not talking about Satanism here, are we?' I have to ask, (so should we all) - how can you be so sure? 'I dedicate myself to You.' - note the capital (upper case) Y in 'You'. So the Maha portrayed himself (past tense, note) as some sort of God, or at least God-man, no? Now he denies this. Why? You then speak of: a unilateral contract Contracts? - and to think that I almost sold my soul for him. You also say: 'The freer I am from hatred, greed, sadness, ignorance, resentment, and anger, the more I will enjoy this existence ' That is just naive. Hatred, sadness and anger (at least) are essential parts of what makes us human. Are you really saying that you want to sever your neural connections to those experiences?

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Date: Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 21:54:38 (GMT) From: Powerman Email: None To: Deputy Dog and Jim Subject: Dog and Jim Message:

Here's Dog and Jim at a restaurant. Jim's the customer and Dog's the busboy: Jim: Excuse me, busboy, there's jelly on this table. I just got it on my elbow. Dog: Jelly? Yeah, so what? Jim: Well, aren't you supposed to clean the table? Dog: I do alot of things but mostly I really like working here. Jim: I mean, isn't your job to clean the tables. Doesn't your boss tell you to clean the tables? Dog: Yes, he said to clean the tables but define 'clean'. And besides, it isn't really a binding contract because really my job is to bus the tables. Not to mention the word 'clean' is very vague. What's clean to one person isn't clean to the next.

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 14:14:07 (GMT) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Powerman Subject: Dog and Jim Message:

Powerman, I did service and I did it well. I just didn't move into the ashram and sign my life away. I did satsang, service and meditated. Receiving knowledge was not like enlisting in the Marines. If it had been like a military organization I would have lasted about two months. As it is, I've been a premie for 25 years and I like the way things are now. A lot of the service given was goofy make-work. So I guess I was a selective servant. -- Dep

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 17:30:41 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: That was both wrong and off-topic, Dog Message:

Dog, You're acting like every other premie who's tried to defend the cult here. As we get into the nitty-gritty you start avoiding the substance of what's actually being said to you. Pman, in fact, was talking about just that. And what do you do? You prove his point by example! Furthermore, you're wrong. Receiving k was like joining the marines. Compared to other 'easy going' guru-types out there and the such, m was all boot camp. You just never trusted him so you avoided all that. Really, the point's so obvious. Too bad you can't see it. As far as m's concerned, by not giving him money or throwing yourself at his feet service-wise, truth is, you didn't count for shit as a premie. You think he likes you? Forget about 'love', But do you think m actually has any respect for premies like you? Do you? Because if you do, I think you're fooling yourself. You're in your own no-man's land. Better, perhaps, than his cage but lost all the same.

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 17:26:16 (GMT) From: Powerman Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Dog and Jim Message:

Dog, I believe you when you say you did your service well. I mean, I believe you believe you did it well. But it's hard to believe you notice details; like remembering lamp covers on the ceiling when you dust. See, I have no gripe against you. In fact, I kind of wish I could be like you--life would be easier. But it's not in my nature... especially when it comes to important matters like 'lord'. Remember that satsang? 'L-O-R-D!!' No, I imagine you don't. You were probably too relaxed, enjoying the moment and all. So I have to take you at your word here and believe you really do have some sincerity. Because when you boil down what we're talking about here, it's really about morality. And I reckon we'd agree that lying, cheating, stealing and taking advantage of others is wrong. It's just the details we can't agree on... like if maharaji did any of those things and what bearing that has on the goods he was delivering (or not delivering). The only understanding of you I can have that leaves you any room for benefit of the doubt is that you just see and hear things differently. When the boss at your job says to clean the table, instead of keeping it simple and taking it seriously like most people who are concerned about survival, you fiddle with the details so you can be relaxed. The table doesn't get cleaned and someone gets pissed off but you got to be relaxed so you figure it's their problem. I'm translating this to the subject we're talking about on this forum and trying to see that maybe you just can't break out of your lackadaisical coma enough to see that it's completely reasonable for other people (uptight as they are) to have taken maharaji at his word. And that other people (those that really clean the table when it's their job) were lied to and cheated by maharaji. Because if you can't stretch far enough to see that, Dog, I'm left with only one conclusion: That you're a lying, cheating motherfucker yourself.

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 18:59:40 (GMT) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Powerman Subject: P-Man: Dog and Jim Message:

Powerman, I was and still am a fringe premie. I have never been censured for this by anyone involved with M. When the DUO Director said jump I wasn't one of those who said, 'How high?' I did SS&M, never lived in the ashram, and never gave it my all like Jim. Chose not to. It wasn't compulsory. I stayed in school and meditated at night. No one threatened to ex-communicate for doing this like they do in the Catholic Church. I showed up to satsang when I wanted to, meditated when I wanted to. I don't claim to represent DLM or any other premies, just me. If you feel like Jim that you were ripped off, my advice is to keep on practising K, study other types of meditation, take t'ai chi, the Forum, whatever you like. Pick up the pieces and move on. You say 'Maybe you just can't break out of your lackadaisical coma enough to see that it's completely reasonable for other people (uptight as they are) to have taken maharaji at his word. And that other people (those that really clean the table when it's their job) were lied to and cheated by maharaji.' If you think you were lied to and cheated by Maharaji I don't know what to say except I'm sorry you feel that way. Just re-reading the above quote has made me a littel more sensitive to your point of view. Perhaps it is completely reasonable to think as you and Jim do. I'm still thankful for the experience of K and have pretty much enjoyed the trip so far. Do you think that is reasonable? -- Dep

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 21:25:16 (GMT) From: Powerman Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: P-Man: Dog and Jim Message:

Dog, There's no question you dragged your feet practicing knowledge without consequence but it's irrelevant that you weren't penalized. The ugliness of maharaji's dogma was that it threatened divine retribution. You can't ignore this and just say you did it your way and things worked out. Maharaji said you had to it his way. Was he lying or mistaken? Did he mean something other than what he said? Okay, so you bought a cake mix and didn't follow the recipe but your cake came out good anyway. Are you really claiming the recipe doesn't matter? Are you ignoring what maharaji said? Obviously you did ignore maharaji to a large extent. But others didn't. So if you're a reasonable and decent person you don't say 'I'm sorry you feel that way'. You look at the facts and details and either see how they were misled or you don't see it. If you don't see it, you show why it isn't true. And if you do see it, you confirm that indeed they were misled.

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Date: Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 20:39:20 (GMT) From: cqg Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: P-Man: Dog and Jim Message:

Dep, you say: 'I'm still thankful for the experience of K and have pretty much enjoyed the trip so far.' How come you seem to think the 'trip' still requires the dealer's presence in your life?

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Date: Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 22:33:57 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Powerman Subject: That was fun! nt Message:

nt

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Date: Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 21:48:37 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: The Vow and Commandments Message:

Sorry, Dog, maybe you didn't see my post. I asked you if you tried to be a 'servant'? Did you? Yes or no?

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Date: Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 22:00:34 (GMT) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Jim Subject: The Vow and Commandments - Servant Message:

I am a servant in my own way. The name Ram Dass means servant of God. I like to think of myself as a Ram Dass like figure, 'Ram Dass light' if you will. I serve God (as a rather hesitant agnostic), my family, and Knowledge. In fact I consider my posting here is a kind of service.

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Date: Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 22:15:08 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: What a fucking, lame, bullshit answer - try again? Message:

Here's the quote again. Remember, this was from a letter your guru gave you when he initiated you: Because no service, no servant - no servant, no humbleness - no humbleness, not a man. And not a man, not a disciple. So you cannot be a disciple at all. If you want to be a real human being first of all you have to be a servant. And how can one become a servant? By service. Now, come on, Dog. Don't dissemble, don't play dumb and, in particular, please don't play any typical premie dumb word games, okay? Just be honest. Your guru's saying that you can't even be a human unless you're a servant. And 'servant', in this context, means a servant of the guru. Who should you be trying to serve? Why the guru of course: And if we have received it, what should we do now? We should always be obliged to him who has given it to us. Because we wouldn’t have been able to get this Word by ourselves. It is by somebody’s Grace that it is given. So try to oblige him. Try to always be under his guidance. Read a little further, Dog. He wants to saddle you up, boy!: I can teach a horse how to be in rein. I can make a hole in his nose and put a rein there. And I can take that rein in my hand or I can leave it alone. Now if I leave it the horse will go wherever he likes. But if I keep the rein in my hands I won’t let that horse go anywhere he likes. I will only take him on the road, on the path. So, please, cut this Ram Dass shit and answer the question: did you try to be a servant of Maharaji or not?

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 14:02:30 (GMT) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Jim Subject: I never received that letter! Message:

Jim, When I was initiated I vaguely remember getting a card with the vows and the commandments, but I did not receive the letter you speak of here. I do not remember anything about making a hole in a horse's nose. I would have remembered that because it's a graphic image and actually sounds kind of gross. It would have definitely been the subject of good-spirited merriment. I have not read the text bolded in the above note until now. And I did try to be a servant of Maharaji, but I chose not to live in an ashram and as mentioned earlier, in keeping in the with the freewheeling spirit of the 60s and early 70s 'I did it mmyyyyyyy way.' The bolded material above was not part of my 'contract.' Not playing dumb, never saw it! So there! -- Dep I've been a premie for 25 years, so obviously something clicked.

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 17:41:31 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Bullshit, Dog Message:

When I was initiated I vaguely remember getting a card with the vows and the commandments, but I did not receive the letter you speak of here. 'Vaguely remember' is right. Listen, email me the names of some of the people you received k with. Where and when and I'll find out. The fact is, we all got at least one of those letters. The one I remember specifically was the 'antidote to the mind' one. We all got it irrespective of your memory. And how about the bigger picture, huh? Can you read? Do you think m was demanding something different from you than from everyone else? See, you're walking around this subject like a burglar walking the inside perimeter of a stockyard, stepping softly by the fence, trying to carefully, carefully, carefully avoid this and that. It's disingenuous, Dog. Maybe you should just leave before you really end up twisting yourself into a knot. You say you see posting here as 'service'? Well all you've done, as far as I'm concerned, is prove, yet again, that being a premie today is pretty well antithetical with being interested in the truth. Good work.

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 18:18:25 (GMT) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Jim Subject: Watch it, Jim! Message:

Jim, I honestly have no recollection of that letter and it was never referred to in any of the later satsangs I attended. Never! In fact come to think of it I not even sure if I even received the vows and commandements when I received K. I do remember seeing them later posted on a board. You want me to leave? Okay! I was leaving anyway. I'm going to cut my balls off and then kill myself, because the spaceship will be here in just a few hours. -- Dep

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 18:22:19 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Coem back when you're more open Message:

Dog, Is there a name for a syndrome in which a person avoids all connotations, implications, 'harmonics', if you will, in a conversation? If so, you're suffering from it.

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 19:08:29 (GMT) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Jim Subject: Coem back when you're more open Message:

Jim, You are starting to act like a demented pit-bull again. I'll take a break for a while and come back when I'm more open. How come the letter you mention wasn't promoted more. Why didn't M wave it around at festivals and remind us of and threaten us about the solemn contract we made? I honestly don't remember the letter. The important thing IMO was and is the experience of K, not a piece of paper. We'll keep in touch, if you want. -- Dep

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Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 21:43:17 (GMT) From: Powerman Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Coem back when you're more open Message:

This is nonsense, Dog. Jim didn't display any kind of aggressiveness. In fact, in light of your unwillingness to acknowledge any sort of reason I think he was pretty mild. Your claim that you didn't receive the letter or hear it promoted at festivals is absolute nonsense. You were there and heard endless promotion of equally if not more evangelical rantings. To obscure this points to a serious lack of honesty on your part. Or maybe you were just relaxing.

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Date: Tues, Feb 22, 2000 at 04:50:06 (GMT) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Powerman Subject: Coem back when you're more open Message:

Powerman, I don't like what I'm saying called bullshit, neither do I like being called a motherfucker. Sorry about that. Jim is a friend of mine I just don't think we can be friends when we talk about M. Evangelical rantings? I guess I heard what I wanted to hear. I heard practise Knowledge. listen to satsang, and help out when you can. When I meditate I relax and settle into a nice state, a state that is intuitively valid. I don't need to be told that it's real or genuine, I know it to be real. That's what K is all about IMO. When I'm in that state I feel good, happy and yes, relaxed. That's what I focus on. You feel the way you feel, and I feel the way I feel. I'm going to take Jim's advice and no post for a while or maybe no more. I'd be gone already if I hadn't read a post from Christina asking to keep posting. Only one life Powerman, I say go for it. -- Dep

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Date: Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 18:10:53 (GMT) From: Archive Goblin Email: None To: All Subject: That vow Message:

wasn't actually in the K. packet. I happen to have a copy bought at a festival somewhere in Europe. Can't remember where.

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Date: Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 14:01:28 (GMT) From: Angry Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: the archive keeper: Get it together/ also THE VOW Message:

nt

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Date: Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 06:19:35 (GMT) From: Powerman Email: None To: Jim Subject: Wanted: Early 70's Knowledge Packet Message:

That's funny, Jim. Somewhere I have a copy of the letter I received in a knowledge session in '77. I think the contents were posted here a couple of years ago so it may be in the archives.

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Date: Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 03:00:37 (GMT) From: michael Email: None To: Jim Subject: Wanted: Early 70's Knowledge Packet Message:

knowledge packet? knowledge packet? I don't need no stinkin' knowledge packet! I just hadta turn over my pay packet!

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