Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 03:09:57 (GMT)
From: Feb 13, 2000 To: Feb 26, 2000 Page: 5 Of: 5


Charlie -:- Moanin'n'Groanin -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 17:44:36 (GMT)
__ Joey -:- Moanin'n'Groanin -:- Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 00:23:13 (GMT)
__ __ Charlie -:- Moanin'n'Groanin -:- Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 13:18:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joey -:- More Moanin'n'Groanin -:- Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 22:51:39 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Thanks -- that's it -:- Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 03:37:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ VP -:- Thanks -- that's it -:- Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 04:17:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Thanks -- that's it -:- Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 04:39:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ VP -:- Just is a funny word -:- Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 21:55:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Ms. K/Katie -:- Thanks -- that's it -:- Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 19:08:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Thanks -- that's it -:- Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 23:13:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Einstine -:- Thanks -- that's it -:- Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 00:02:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Thanks -- that's it -:- Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 23:46:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Almost, but let me qualify that -:- Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 00:09:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Lawyers can't post on Fv -:- Almost, but let me qualify that -:- Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 00:59:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Do I know you? -:- Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 01:15:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Almost, but let me qualify that -:- Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 00:24:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Calm down now, Katie -:- Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 00:52:56 (GMT)
__ JHB -:- Moanin'n'Groanin -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 22:46:21 (GMT)
__ Robyn -:- Moanin'n'Groanin -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 20:28:52 (GMT)
__ __ VP -:- Moanin'n'Groanin -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 22:40:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ Robyn -:- Moanin'n'Groanin -:- Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 01:08:41 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- take care of yourself first! -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 18:22:22 (GMT)
__ __ Ms. K -:- Charlie's reality check -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 19:07:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Katie's reality check -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 20:00:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Passer by -:- Katie's reality check -:- Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 03:43:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- YOUR reality check -:- Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 05:06:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Another passer by -:- Katie's reality -:- Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 04:09:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- Charlie's reality check -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 19:19:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ oops -:- i did it again (nt) -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 19:23:23 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Moanin'n'Groanin -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 18:02:34 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Moanin'n'Groanin -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 18:24:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ Charlie -:- Groanin response -:- Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 09:17:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ JB -:- Moanin'n'Groanin -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 19:53:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- Moanin'n'Groanin -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 20:05:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Katie meet JB, JB meet Katie -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 20:04:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ JB -:- Katie meet JB, JB meet Katie -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 20:30:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Ms. K/Katie -:- Uh, JB -:- Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 19:14:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JB -:- Uh, JB -:- Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 18:55:14 (GMT)

Nigel -:- The Friends of Charles Darwin - please join (ot) -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 16:34:38 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- The Friends of Charles Darwin - please join (ot) -:- Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 05:23:09 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Could be worse... -:- Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 10:34:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mike -:- Why, of course Charlie is my Darwin! -:- Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 22:19:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Thanks all who have signed up already! -:- Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 11:24:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- Yeah, but...... -:- Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 19:04:22 (GMT)

Larkin -:- Valentine to the Lard (repost) -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 16:18:12 (GMT)
__ Mike -:- Ahhhh. did ya have to pick on violins that way? -:- Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 22:23:16 (GMT)
__ __ cqg -:- er,... Mike, isn't he 'on the fiddle'? Doh! (nt) -:- Thurs, Feb 17, 2000 at 18:41:54 (GMT)
__ Happy -:- hilarious! (nt) -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 17:31:25 (GMT)
__ __ cqg -:- Bravo!the tune?-'My Love is like a Red Red Nose?nt -:- Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 19:48:56 (GMT)

BJ -:- The psychic group/thread too long -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 03:59:16 (GMT)
__ Charlie -:- The psychic group/thread too long -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 17:24:18 (GMT)
__ __ JB -:- The psychic group/thread too long -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 19:59:04 (GMT)
__ __ Robyn -:- The psychic group/thread too long -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 19:10:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- The psychic group/thread too long -:- Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 06:28:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ VP -:- Fame sucks -:- Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 03:20:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ VP -:- Fame doesn't suck as much as my writing -:- Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 03:22:52 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- I am you and you are me and see how we are we are -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 18:08:24 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Meher Baba's Silence. -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 10:39:08 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- Meher Baba's Silence. -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 12:37:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jethro -:- Meher Baba's Silence. -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 14:10:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Wasnt' that the year Krakatoa blew up? (nt) -:- Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 17:30:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- I kid you not -:- Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 00:09:17 (GMT)
__ Mu -:- The psychic group/thread too long -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 05:42:18 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Maybe God would like to father your baby? -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 04:11:23 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- father her baby? -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 04:17:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ JB formerly BJ -:- father her twins -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 19:34:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JB -:- hey ,next post took hrs to post -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 20:03:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ JB formerly known as BJ -:- father her twins -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 14:33:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ mantis -:- is that the big bang? (nt) -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 06:08:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- father her baby? -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 04:27:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Jim, maybe 'G' is 'God' -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 10:43:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ G -:- Me, God? -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 11:04:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Didn't ... -:- Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 17:59:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Didn't ... -:- Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 18:37:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- Goo ji, goo ji, goo? -:- Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 22:31:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Goo ji -:- Goo ji, goo ji, goo! -:- Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 00:48:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cqg -:- Goo ji, goo ji, goo! -:- Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 20:33:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- Oh, my Goo ji, you are so big and I..... -:- Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 19:10:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Oh, my Goo ji, you are so big and I..... -:- Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 21:24:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- father her baby? -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 04:33:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Black eyes from babies. -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 10:59:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ cqg -:- Secret? - me too? (nt) -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 21:23:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Black eyes from babies. -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 16:41:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- I blame the parents. -:- Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 17:56:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- I blame the parents. -:- Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 20:07:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Swings and Roundabouts. -:- Thurs, Feb 17, 2000 at 12:15:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Swings and Roundabouts. -:- Thurs, Feb 17, 2000 at 19:59:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- Now, there's an idea for a 'contest!' -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 17:23:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Now, there's an idea for a 'contest!' -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 17:43:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- Thanks, mom! -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 18:14:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Thanks, mom! -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 18:25:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Black eyes from babies. -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 13:15:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ Robyn -:- father her baby? -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 04:24:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ BJ, now JB -:- Naive no longer -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 14:29:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Naive no longer -:- Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 05:56:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Naive no longer -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 15:39:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Prolific? -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 14:48:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JB -:- Prolific? -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 15:11:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Prolific? -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 22:33:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JB -:- Prolific? -:- Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 17:15:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Anon -:- Prolific? -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 19:39:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Anon -:- Prolific? -:- Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 01:08:05 (GMT)

Helen Lounge Act -:- 'Love...exciting and new -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 03:08:29 (GMT)
__ Harry -:- Are you the lady who shines white light -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 07:06:12 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- Fuck that song -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 12:28:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ JB -:- F*** that song -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 20:20:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Yes, Jerry needs therapy -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 21:43:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ JB -:- Yes, Jerry needs therapy -:- Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 04:04:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Yes, Jerry needs therapy, maybe, but.. -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 22:17:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ HarryBird on the Wire -:- You might like this Cohen one....I do. -:- Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 02:34:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- You might like this Cohen one....I do. -:- Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 03:27:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- I forgot -:- Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 03:29:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ Robyn -:- Fuck that song -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 13:20:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Harry -:- Fuck that song -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 18:15:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Leonard Cohen -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 19:27:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Harry -:- Leonard Cohen -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 22:21:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Fuck that song -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 19:20:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Harry -:- Fuck that song -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 22:24:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Fuck that song -:- Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 01:37:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Fuck that song -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 14:31:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Harry -:- Fuck that song -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 18:11:19 (GMT)
__ Suzie Bai -:- My (gag, barf) Song to the Lord of the Universe -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 04:55:21 (GMT)
__ __ JB -:- Heyis this really you Suzie Bai? -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 19:30:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jethro -:- To JB re:Suzie Bai -:- Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 08:47:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Candy -:- To JB re:Suzie Bai -:- Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 04:39:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ JB -:- Oh -:- Thurs, Feb 17, 2000 at 16:28:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- To JB -:- Fri, Feb 18, 2000 at 09:50:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JB -:- Oh, again,(nt),ty -:- Fri, Feb 18, 2000 at 16:54:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ If what you say is true -:- the itseems that Suzy has been infected by -:- Thurs, Feb 17, 2000 at 01:50:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Candy -:- the itseems that Suzy has been infected by -:- Thurs, Feb 17, 2000 at 06:38:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Respect for what Candy -:- Please explain -:- Fri, Feb 18, 2000 at 05:51:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Seems like you don't mind -:- participating to 'this load of crap' nt -:- Thurs, Feb 17, 2000 at 01:47:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JB -:- participating to 'this load of crap' nt -:- Thurs, Feb 17, 2000 at 16:31:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Thanks, Candy -:- Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 21:14:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JB -:- re:Suzie Bai -:- Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 17:24:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- re:Suzie Bai -:- Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 23:00:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JB -:- re:Suzie Bai - Oh thanks (nt) -:- Thurs, Feb 17, 2000 at 16:35:16 (GMT)
__ __ SB -:- sorry-posted in wrong place. -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 05:51:46 (GMT)
__ __ SB -:- 1998 Lord of the Universe -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 05:37:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mike -:- Ms. Bai, didn't you write -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 17:28:10 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- yikes! -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 05:18:32 (GMT)
__ Ms. K -:- Happy Valentine's Day, Helen! -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 04:38:56 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- Poetry on drugs 4U -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 17:48:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ Robyn -:- Poetry on drugs 4U -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 19:24:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ Ms. K -:- Helen the poet -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 19:12:58 (GMT)

CultbusterUK -:- Divine Light Mission in the UK -:- Sun, Feb 13, 2000 at 23:54:05 (GMT)
__ Follow the Money. -:- Ask Alan -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 09:57:04 (GMT)
__ __ CultbusterUK -:- Ask Alan -:- Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 10:26:07 (GMT)


Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 17:44:36 (GMT)
From: Charlie
Email: charlie@demont.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: Moanin'n'Groanin
Message:
Hi Everyone,

I remembered when I first found the Ex-Premie web page (maybe a couple or three years ago I thought it was boring and wasteful (even hateful), so moved on. I moved on but returned about a year ago. This time I stuck around to read ALL the journeys. Something hit me. I realized I was in freefall, no faith, no religion, no nothing. I had awoken into a nightmare that was really happening. Some of you will remember me and my wife Lee when we emerged on the forum during the summer of 99. It was the only means of support that we had at that time and boy it was good to have it. However one thing kept nagging at me. For how long was I going to hang out here on a cyberspace forum, what about the rebuilding of my life? I felt sick and recognized that I needed to get well. I looked at it as a new beginning.

I speculated that I would hang with the ex-premies for a while but would eventually start to put more effort into other aspects of my life as I regained my 'composure'. I couldn't help feeling that I had somehow been pulled onto the flip side of the maharaji coin. Heads you get to spend twenty years of your precious life believing a pile of bollox to be the truth and following a short fat Indian believing he is God Almighty. Tail's you get to sit in a dim room for years writing endless lines of angry comments on a computer screen while your telephone bill soars, your business collapses, your eyesight fails, you ignore your kids and you put on an extra fifty pounds in weight as you stuff your face with crisps and lager (lucky I don't smoke). In the first few months I did see some improvements in my state of mind but soon I couldn't see much movement at all, the sound of the clock on the wall began to sound awfully loud.

So, I decided to try and get away from all this and look into improving the quality of the more mundane parts of my life like decorating the house, fixing up the plumbing, sorting out the hole in the roof etc. These were/are all things that I have ignored throughout my life considering them unimportant compared to the reality of meditation. I remember years ago discussing with premies who agreed that IF we only had enough FAITH then EVERYTHING would come to us, we would be taken care of in the most profound sense. I guess I just didn't have the faith which is why in my middle age years I am wondering for instance why I don't have any pension or insurance for old age years. These are the things that most people have sorted out much earlier in life. Still I must now do what I can to reset my 'preferences'.

Now another thing, how much can be said about M&K before we have in a sense heard it all. OK, some people need a little more convincing than others but nevertheless I reckon that once you have truly pulled back the curtain on this wizard of oz no amount of trying to put it back in place will allow you to go back to cloud cuckoo land. Baby you're out! So having said that why should exes need constant reminding that M ISN'T the LOTU in the same way that premies apparently need reminding that M IS the 'casual meditation teacher who is nothing special but has no faults kind of guy'. Well of course we don't need reminders cause there ain't no chance of falling back, IS THERE? Nor is there a need to keep re-affirming 'Gee wiz, wasn't I a fool to have believed that crock of shit for so long'. At least for me I want to forget it all not remember it all every day until I croak. I reckon most of us really need to make efforts to claw back the remaining and even more valuable years left of our lives and ENJOY them properly.

Now in case you think that I'm decrying the long term validity or purpose of this here forum I'd just like to say that I really do still see it as a valuable thing but I believe (at least for me) there are limitations.

Towards the end of last year I got bored to death with the constant bickering and continuous stream of junk from Shp and Cerby/Doubtfire on F4 so decided to make an effort to stay away as much as possible. As many of us know staying away is actually quite difficult if you've got accustomed to using the forum, so naturally I did occasionally look in. What I noticed was the gradual change in colour of my index list. Whereas the threads were once all brown (opened/read) by Christmas they were nearly all blue (unread). This change pleased me more than anything and I recognised this as a sure sign of my recovery. I know there are others who have noticed this happening to them.

Revisiting in the New Year I saw we had fresh melodrama with the change in software to ForumV. I learned new terms like 'proximitron' and 'kludge' but I wasn't looking for software support. This was another signal to get to hell outa here as it wasn't doing me any good and reminded me of a time when I had got hooked on TV soap operas. Very dark days.

Push forward a few weeks and Marianne comes to visit the UK. What can I say, it's great to be able to give a bed and roof, if only for a night, to somebody who offered me support when I first quit the cult. It's been one of the best bits for me. However it resulted in me looking in at ForumV at the weekend again only to read even more garbage. Literally streams of loose jobbie flowing out of control, what the fuck. It's almost impossible to find threads which have any sensible discussion. This Jim/Run thing is so stuck up it's own arse (to mix metaphors) that there seems to be no shifting it. Every genuine attempt to end this one only results with the thread getting ever longer and pushing anything else you might be following into the inactive index. Sometimes I feel I will scroll to the centre of the earth getting back to the last interesting discussion I was reading only a few hours before. How can anything positive ever emerge in this climate?

Jim, I don't see you as a person who particularly cares about forging good relations with folk on or off the forum but for what it's worth I must say that I've nearly always enjoyed your contribution. Having said that I must also say that this battle for your 'good name' is one of your worst moves. What good name is that by the way? Even if Run resigns from his role as RE admin and jumps under the nearest bus (not that I'm suggesting you're driving him to suicide), the thing people will remember is this drawn out drudge of a fight that verges on crippling the forum from boredom was started by you.

I pity the administrators who have to read it ALL.

Sorry if I sound like I'm on my high horse here but I am saddened by all this and worse, I can't offer a solution. Under the circumstances I think I want to distance myself even further from the forum. There are many out there who may read this and say 'well fuck off already, why don't you'. Well you know that's how I think M treats premies who complain about his club - if it doesn't work for you fuck off already, you're not wanted anyway!

Good Luck y'all...

Charlie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 00:23:13 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Charlie
Subject: Moanin'n'Groanin
Message:
Jim, I don't see you as a person who particularly cares about forging good relations with folk on or off the forum but for what it's worth I must say that I've nearly always enjoyed your contribution. Having said that I must also say that this battle for your 'good name' is one of your worst moves. What good name is that by the way?

To answer your last question first,he's called Jim Heller, and that would be the good name.
Now there are those, such as yourself who would suggest that Jim is doing more harm than good for that name by virtue of what you just described as this 'drawn out drudge of a fight that verges on crippling the forum from boredom...'
Speaking for myself only, I hardly find this boring. Moreover, I find it extremely interesting, a little TOO interesting. Interesting in the sense that the Chinese might refer to it, when they say, 'May you be CURSED with interesting times.'
But the question that begs to be answered in that regard, is... can we or should we blame this all on Jim? Is this really just about Jim's good name as you put it, or are there any issues of principle involved here that should concern us all. I believe there are and I would put it to you this way.
Regardless of the manner in which its come to our attention, I believe its now become clear that Runamock was conducting a malicious smear campaign against Jim, using the 'secrecy' of the RE forum as a veil behind which he could hide, and its non- accessibility to Jim himself which prohibited him (Jim, that is) from responding to his accuser head on. Shameful yes, and even worse, a defacto form of censorship that was placed around Jim's neck like a f**king noose.
Now, why do I care about this?
Well maybe its as simple as this. I know for a fact that much of what Run had to say about Jim was blatant bullshit.

a)In the year and a quarter that I've been following this forum I have NEVER observed, or had reason to believe that Jim used the cloak of anonymity to undermine, undercut or in any way cause any harm to any exes participating in this forum. NEVER!
O yes, he may have at times used an anonymous handle or two where he felt it was appropriate to stick it to the cult. But who amongst us would fault him for this...besides Shp that is and his new found friend Runamock?

b) You stated above Charlie that you don't particularly see Jim as a persom interested in forging good relations with people on and off the forum.
Now certainly Jim's sometimes intimidating presence has contributed to this perception, not only on your part but for others as well. But is it true that he really isn't interested in forging good relations? Or that he's this uncaring, unempathetic, insensitive brute that Run would have the people at the RE believe.
I want you to know that when I first starting posting on this forum, I took advantage of an opportunity when Jim posted his phone number on this forum to give him a call. I want you to know that I discovered a human being who was totally interested in what I had to say, totally attentive, totally embracing and welcoming me in this little cyber community of exes that we have here. We talked for three hours (yup, I paid the bill:) and I'll have you know that Jim is one of the best conversationalists I've ever encountered. He has a great sense of give and take while engaging himself in conversation, and of course his intelligence and humour make him alot of fun to talk to.
But most important Charlie, I was fresh out of the cult at the time, and boy did I have this need to talk. And boy could Jim ever listen!
Now my experience in life has taught me this. The people who are the most genuinely caring of others will listen to them. Not necessarily agree... but listen. In fact I sometimes feel the greatest gift that we can give each other, is the gift of simply listening to each other. Moreover, in some situations that may be ALL we can really do for each other.
What I find particularly galling in this situation, and I'll try not to dwell on it too much, in order to spare Run the embarrasssment (although whatever I say here...it will be on an open forum where he can respond, and not behind his back) is that in my conversations with Run over the phone, (and I believe I spent a sufficient amount of time with him on the phone), he'd really have to climb a latter to kiss Jim's clock in terms of his ability to listen. Oh yes, he claimed he genuinely cared for me, he'd be willing he claimed to talk to me on a regular basis if I wanted his help. But I had to ask myself, what help could I get from someone who seemed more intent on telling me how it really is, as opposed to listening. Where was the caring, where was the empathy in THAT?!
I could go on and outline other instances of outright hypocricy on Run's part in his dealings with me on and off this page, but that isn't my intent.
My intent is THIS. Jim Heller isn't the monster that he's been portrayed in this really weird RE situation, where a defacto censorship has been placed on his ability to respond.
I also want to say the following. Its bad enough that we have premies who would love to run Jim in the ground, and all too often Jim is left fending for himself, because after all he's Jim, the thick skinned lawyer who can handle it all. But for exes ourselves to allow this kind of situation to exist where he's being smeared by a fellow ex behind his back, and again where a defacto censorship has been placed on his ability to respond... I think it just sucks. And here's my final reason why it sucks, and I'll bring this post to a close.

Today Jim is the target of this smear campaign combined with a defacto censorship. If no one takes a stand and says this wrong, plain and simple... tomorrow it can be me, the day after JW, and perhaps the day after that, even yourself Charlie.

And so the way I see it now, this isn't just about Jim. Its about the way we relate to each other as fellow exes, it's about defacto censorship, and it may even be about a forum (the RE forum ) which has lost any rational or moral right to exist that it once may have had. A forum that's runamock of what its supposed to be.

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Date: Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 13:18:13 (GMT)
From: Charlie
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Moanin'n'Groanin
Message:
Thanks for your response Joey, even though I was hoping I would have to say another word on this subject.

First Jim's 'good name'. It was said as a joke. I'm sure (hope) Jim took it that way.

Next you mention your particular interest in this kind of dispute.

Well, I guess it takes all sorts to make the world or even the forum go round, I am one who thinks this subject does nothing for the good of the Ex-premie community. Maybe I should be more politically precise and picky. I should labour on every word and utterance as though this really were a serious case, but I just don't. I just keep seeing it a small personal fight that's spreading down to the end of the bar where I'm standing. What worries me is that anyone who asks for a bit more calm gets drawn into the punch up. Call me shallow minded but what you see as 'interesting times' I'm afraid I can't help seeing as merely 'soap opera'.

But the question that begs to be answered in that regard, is... can we or should we blame this all on Jim?

Actually I am not heaping all the responsibility on Jim. What I think (like JHB, who posted to Jim last weekend) is that Jim has the power to bring this issue to close.

Is this really just about Jim's good name as you put it, or are there any issues of principle involved here that should concern us all.

Joey, when I found EPO and the forum it was at the tale end of another big row which thankfully I never ever was exposed to (which I think just might have involved you). There existed a calm for some months before the next rough and tumble set in. I normally sit on the side lines when it starts up but feel like I'm being pathetic when I do. However you see, some of these fights between Jim and Run set in as a result of a disagreement over Darwinian theory, you know the Dawkins/Behe bit. I am interested in these things but not to the extent of getting involved in a flame war on an Internet forum. Jim has by now almost exhausted the dictionary finding expletives and insults to hurl at Runamok. I feel sorry for anyone who gets on the end of one of these tongue lashings and have occasionally indicated my sympathy to Runamok. However, because I do not necessarily support Run I have never actually lined up alongside him. Similarly do not want to line up with Jim. One thing I hate to see is a flurry of abusive posts from other exes who think they are adding support to Jim.

Yes, I have heard many times that Jim is a stand up guy and a great conversationalist and I'm not disputing that. As a matter of fact Jim has always been most civil and friendly in his exchanges with me but I don't want to jump into bed with him just yet (even if he wears pyjamas). Nor do I want to get too involved with anyone I meet here, just yet. I've seen other people here offer a hand of friendship only to withdraw a bleeding stump!

You made some points about private forums and I think my answer to Jim covers most of what I feel on that score. I just remembered when RE first started up there was no administrator. Katie was sort of hoping that someone would come forward or be nominated. I was going to nominate you Joey to head up the welcome party. It was the week that Abi came online, I think she called herself Grillzone or something. I decided that might be taken in the wrong spirit so didn't.

Today Jim is the target of this smear campaign combined with a defacto censorship. If no one takes a stand and says this wrong, plain and simple... tomorrow it can be me, the day after JW, and perhaps the day after that, even yourself Charlie.

I often wonder am I paranoid, or even paranoid enough, or even should I begin to be paranoid if I think I'm not. At times like that a post like the one that Anon made in a response to Jean Michel's New requirements in order to do Service makes me feel a whole lot better.

Take care... Charlie

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Date: Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 22:51:39 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Charlie
Subject: More Moanin'n'Groanin
Message:
Charlie,

Thank you so much for your response. I found this post along with the one that you started this thread, and even the one you've most recently posted to Jim, to be very genuine, empathetic and insightful. In truth, this isn't the first time you've put some really excellent posts on the board and I thank you for them all.

I'd like to start off responding to the following. You wrote:

I just remembered when RE first started up there was no administrator. Katie was sort of hoping that someone would come forward or be nominated. I was going to nominate you Joey to head up the welcome party. It was the week that Abi came online, I think she called herself Grillzone or something. I decided that might be taken in the wrong spirit so didn't.
(emphasis my own)

Well excellent judgement on your part!!
Seriously, I've made several errors in judgement during the course of my involvement here on the forum, but the one that I'm the most ashamed of certainly would be this incident involving Abi. I suppose the only mitigating circumstances that I can refer to in my defense, would be the fact that you just mentioned...that when Abi first started posting she did so as Girlzone and there was really no way I could no that she was who she was. I found her posts as Girlzone to be literally mindspinning (my own personal take, I know many others may have seen it differently). I was also in the process of just having extricated myself from a very destructive personal relationship that had been formed with another forum participant, the details of which I'll spare you. But I had reason to believe that I was being hounded on the forum by this individual, the most extreme example being the posting of medical file information that was put up in response to one of my posts. I guess what I'm saying here is that I found myself in a stressful situation where I was on the lookout for my tormentress and when Abi came along...well you saw what happenned.
None of this should detract from the obvious fact that what I did was wrong, plain and simple, and counter-productive to the sense of well being that should exist for everyone participating in this, our little cyber community of exes. Again, I regret it very much.

In spite of my errors and the justifiable criticism and even condemnation that I've received as a result, I'm still here posting, and today, moanin and groanin a little more by your side. And I suspect the reason for this, is the genuine support and caring I've received here on this forum and wouldn't you know it...probably no two people have offered me more support in their own ways than both Jim and Katie. I like and respect them both. As far as I'm concerned these are two people, who, regardless of whatever their human failings might be, bring amazing qualities to our little community here, and I've appreciated the contributions of both. As a result, if I tell you that I feel slightly torn by this battle, I think you can easily understand why.
I still believe that Jim saw an important point of principle that needed to be argued and defended. I also believe that if nothing else, he's convincingly demonstrated the need for the RE forum to conduct itself differently and I've appreciated the response from Katie and Run that there will be changes to their internal guidelines.
I DON'T however believe that Run is as guilty of defamation of Jim's character as Jim would have us all believe. I've read with interest Run's 'statement' post in a thread above where he referred to the 'lobbing' that was coming at the RE from this forum over here. It happenned during the time when Jim was still away fromn the proceedings, yet I remember distinctly the culprits referring to themselves in an almost mocking and taunting fashion as some 'Unholy Alliance' or 'Unholy Trilogy' along with Jim, even though as I just said, Jim wasn't part of the proceedings at the time. The picking on the RE seemed relentless and I remember thinking how shameful it was that we had a situation here where a couple of exes were badgering, hounding, but even worst of all intimidating the RE participants in such a senseless fashion. In that regard, it may have been Jim's 'friends' as much as Run, who caused him to be an object of discussion over at the RE, where understandably, those people would want to come to terms or make some sense out of the relentless attacks against their forum. I do hope that Jim will be able to see Run's mistake in that light. And I also hope that both of them will find a way to relate to each other with a little more emphasis on 'principle' and less on 'personality' as Katie has suggested in one of her posts.

But here's what I hope for most of all as far as our little community goes and this is what's been on my mind. MOST OF ALL, I hope for an end to the intimidation that occurs on this page, regardless of its form.
Now I know that we can always expect premies acting on behalf of the cult to at least attempt to use tactics of intimidation to stifle and even derail the conversations happening on this page.
And I really don't fear that...I almost welcome the opportunity of standing up to them. But these days I just can't get over the spectacle of exes intimidating other exes. Whether it's the intimidation of those who senselessly kept battering the Re forum, or the intimidation inherent in the situation where Run diverts the RE forum from what it should be to a gossip mongering defacto censorship kind of a place. Posts that are put up by one ex that seek to destroy the heart of another exes being, simply because one ex does not agree with what the other ex is saying...I suppose I've been guilty of a few of those as well, but today I just can't help but feel how shameful that kind of behavior is.
Again, I believe it would be one thing if this atmosphere of intimidation existed between exes and premies. We could easily survive such a situation IMO. But an atmosphere of intimidation that exists between exes ourselves...well, I believe it may the worst culprit in terms of rendering our little community much less desirable and beneficial for those of us participating here.

One of the most precious aspects of the ex-premie community is the support and encouragement to be ourselves. Truly ourselves.
Of course in the cult, this was discouraged and I can remember near the end of my association with Amtext, just prior to my total departure from the cult, how members of the Amtext management team would use intimidation in their attempts to keep me in line. In no way could I express what was bothering me in the situation. They just wouldn't allow it. The atmosphere became so stifling, that when I reached the point that I couldn't breath anymore...I just had to leave the cult.

And then a few months later when I purchased my first computer, I found this place. I was shaky, but boy was it great to meet up with all these exes on line! I had this whole Amtext story to tell, really didn't know where or how to begin, but clumsily I jumped in. The support was amazing! And in the end I had no problem in telling the Amtext story. I remember JW formulating these really excellent questions, and all I had to do was concentrate on answering them one by one, and voila!...the story was told.

Its been a privilege for me to tell that story and to be able to make whatever other positive contributions I've been able to bring to this page. I realize that its only been possible by all of us connecting in an atmosphere of respect and encouragement. THAT is empowering! Fear and intimidation can ONLY BE STIFLING!

And so thats my hope...that fear and intimidation to the extent that it exists amongst exes, comes to an end. That I encounter no situation where I feel intimidated from saying what I really have to say, and that no other exes feel that way either.
I believe this place has value...when we respect each other and give ourselves the opportunity to truly be ourselves, free of intimidation and fear.

So Charlie, those are my 'moanin and groanin' thoughts for the day. Its been great talkn to ya, and of course I wish both you and Lee, all the best.

Take care,

Joey

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Date: Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 03:37:11 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: heller@bc1.com
To: Joey
Subject: Thanks -- that's it
Message:
Thanks, Joey.

No, that's it succinctly. It's just completely unacceptable to have some private, forum enclave where we can gossip and, unfortunately, even lie about each other. That's not cool.

You know, some of the 'support' I've gotten from a few people, both on the forum and off, is to the effect of 'Hey, Jim, don't worry about it. We can make our own minds up.' or iWho cares what someone says about you, when you know what the truth is.' Hell, I don't even know what I'm supposed to know what the truth is about if it's all so secret!

You get slandered in secret, you become something of an 'in joke' for everyone who sat in on it. And it's not even like they have to join in, it's just enough to read through and go 'un-huh, un-huh'. I'll tell you, I have read those RE threads and poor Runamok should be easily excused if he thought people were agreeing with him. I sure got that impression, there was so much commisseration for all the ahrd work he's done, standing up to me, a 'bad' person, as he once called me (in the context of kicking Shp mercilessly once I'd knocked him unconscious). Hey, Shp, I bet you didn't know just how badly I hurt you once you lost consciousness, did you? Neither did I.

Why does there have to be any sort of secret anything here? Whose idea is that and what real purpose does it serve? Are we starting our own little Aspirant Ex-Premie Training Seminar? Who will be the first Aspirant co-ordinator? Who will train them?

I'm sorry if I've seem a little, ahem, pre-occupied with this issue. But everyone just telling me how boring it was, or how it was none of their business, just my own private affair with Run, or how I shouldn't worry ..... look, do you know how embarrassing it was for me to lurk on RE and see this new person, SB, who doesn't know me from Adam, hearing all this over-the-top vile shit? And what? I'm supposed to be satisfied that maybe, just maybe, she'll get to know me a bit and might decide for herself that it's not all true? Get real, guys. No one should have to go through that. Never.

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Date: Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 04:17:12 (GMT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Thanks -- that's it
Message:
You know, some of the 'support' I've gotten from a few people, both on the forum and off, is to the effect of 'Hey, Jim, don't worry about it. We can make our own minds up.' or iWho cares what someone says about you, when you know what the truth is.'

Jim, IF you thought I was just trying to placate you, you missed my points entirely.

VP the weary

How was your Valentine's Day?

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Date: Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 04:39:05 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: heller@bc1.com
To: VP
Subject: Thanks -- that's it
Message:
Veep,

Your two posts were warm, considerate and highly appreciated for several reasons. For one, you didn't just blow this off as some private, obsession of mine that none were or should ever take an interest in. Nor did you tell me, as did one well-meaning soul, that I appear to be losing my mind. And, thankfully, you didn't tell me that I had it coming or any of that shit either. You treated me like a friend and I appreciated that.

But were you trying to placate me? Veep, think of it: of course you were! Yet, I hasten to add that that's not necessarily a bad thing. It's really a question of what, if anything, one feels should be done about a situation. I completely trust that you, in good faith, believe, as you said, that:

I am not a part of RE, but I have to say that people can have any club and exclude anyone they want to exclude.

But I tend to think that no, not necessarily. In particular, I don't think it's cool for there to be a private, confidential subset to Forum Five. I thought it was a bad idea before it even affected me directly. Now it has and I think so even more.

Basically, Veep, if I read you right, your view is that I jsut have to live with it. If people want to slander me however which way behind my back, well that's them and that's life. I agree with that sentiment wholeheartedly.

Likewsie, I also agree with what Katie said about being criticised on the forum and having to take it at times. Sometimes it seems so unfair but what can you do? Better deal with it if you think you must or sometimes ignore it cause that can work too.

But this isn't privately behind my back and it's not up front on the forum either. It's this grey, netherworld in the basement of the forum. It's 'official' in the sense that it's billed, like I say, as a 'subset' of the forum. It's a natural point of interest for any regular here, or especially, any 'recent ex' who drops in. Yet it's private and confidential AND, as we've seen, can easily, easily be abused.

I say that's wrong. Scrap it. Start something else. Change the rules. Do something. But this particualar setup sucks.

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Date: Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 21:55:14 (GMT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Just is a funny word
Message:
Jim,

I said that I wasn't just trying to placate you. Of course I was trying to placate you, old man, just not JUST trying to placate you. See how tricky words can be?!

I see you understand that I didn't JUST do that, so never mind.

How's that cold?

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Date: Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 19:08:14 (GMT)
From: Ms. K/Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Thanks -- that's it
Message:
Jim -
Believe it or not, I have been thinking about what you have had to say on the forum. Although I cannot agree with how you have gone about it, I do think you have a valid point. It really does not matter what I think about Runamok, or what I think about you when it comes to an ethical issue. It shouldn't matter for anyone, to tell you the truth - but we are all human here - a point which several people have been trying to make in this long argument.

I ask that you read what I have to say and evaluate it without considering who is saying it. I know that at this point dislike me intensely as a person - but that doesn't mean that everything I say is wrong because you personally do not like me.

I have hesitated to take a stand on this issue because I am NOT the forum administrator of Recent Exes, and, because I have been the Forum Administrator of both this forum, and of Recent Exes, I know how obnoxious it is when past Forum Administrators criticize the FA's decisions (and I am sure I have done that to the present FA's of both this forum and to Runamok. It's hard not to.)

But anyway, here is my post from the Recent Ex forum last Sunday afternoon. I also e-mailed this proposal to several people, including you (Jim), and Runamok. (Be aware that members of Recent Exes are allowed to re-post their OWN posts on Forum V.)

Here's what I said:
I am not the forum administrator, and I don't make the guidelines here, so this is only my opnion. I'd like to hear what everyone else here has to say about this proposal.

I have been thinking about what Jim appears to be trying to say on Forum V (I am not talking about the flames, or his trying to discredit Run, but what is really bothering him). The issue appears to be that he doesn't like people talking about him in a forum where he cannot respond.

Although I deplore and am pretty disgusted by the way that Jim has HANDLED this issue, I think that some of what he has to say is accurate - no one likes people to talk about them behind their backs! So I am asking you all - what would you think about making a rule that we would not talk about any forum EX-premie who is not a member of Recent Exes ON Recent Exes itself? That seems fair to me - I am trying to look at this dispassionately, and to do the right thing.

This is what is done in therapy groups, AA meetings, etc. (In other words, you don't go into an AA meeting and say stuff about another AA member who is not present - it's not appropriate, and you'll get silenced. Ditto in a therapy group). This is supposed to be a support and discussion group, and I don't feel it's necessary to the discussion that we be able to talk about Jim or anyone else from Forum V who is not present here.

It took me a long time to figure out the wording of what to say, because, in this case, making a blanket rule that one could not talk about anyone who is not present would also include Maharaji and his associates (although perhaps they come into the category of public figures?).

I put this before the membership on Recent Exes when it was still on the old forum, and I will post it on the new forum. I started that forum (although, again, I emphasize that I AM not doing adminstration there), and I think it has its place in the ex-premie world. I wouldn't have put so much work into it in the first place if I didn't think so. My feeling is that the goals of that forum can be fufilled without anyone ever mentioning Jim, or alluding to him - ditto for anyone else who participates on Forum V. It wasn't set up to be a 'forum about the Forum' - that could be accomplished elsewhere, if people are interested.

And personally to you, Jim (and no one else has to read this) - while I agree with your point about it being unfair for people to talk behind your back on a forum in which you cannot respond, I think the reason that you have gotten little positive response or agreement on this point is because you have coupled it with criticism and downright defamation of Runamok (not to mention me). That has made it hard to separate out the real issues here. I think it's become obvious that many people agree with your point about not being talked about behind your back, but that they might not also agree with your feelings about Runamok, me, or anyone else on the RE forum. I have tried, but not always successfully to make that point in my posts here.

In other words, it's the ISSUE that is the real problem here, not the PERSONALITIES. And focusing on the personalities, in my opinion, tends to obscure the issue - I certainly know that it has done so for me. Case in point - I have gotten SO angry lately about some of the things you have said about me on the forum, and to me in e-mail, that it's made me temporarily lose sight of the real issue itself.

I don't have to dislike Runamok to agree with you, and I don't have to like you to agree with you. One of the things I most dislike about this forum is the personality battle that occurs here - where people have a knee-jerk response to someone's post because of WHO is posting it, not what is said. And again, I hope this doesn't occur here, and that you will read my post and hear what I have to say.

Sincerely,
Katie

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Date: Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 23:13:00 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: heller@bc1.com
To: Ms. K/Katie
Subject: Thanks -- that's it
Message:
I started that forum (although, again, I emphasize that I AM not doing adminstration there),

You might not be the FA but you're the one who calls the shots. You know how it works. Run's FA because you appointed him. If you wanted to withdraw that support, he'd be gone. Am I wrong about any of this? What part and how much?

and I think it has its place in the ex-premie world.

and I don't. But then you've always been into private, whisper, whisper, right? But tell me, what great purpose RE serves. The fact is, no one's really used it for much of anything except Run and we know what he's used it for. Or is the big idea that RE will be the 'no challenge' place? Where people have discussions, but not really? Come on, if you're billing this as a 'subset of Forum Five', shouldn't you have sold us all on it in the first place? Or do you, like Brian, think that the forum is the private property of the current FA? What are your views on that issue?

I wouldn't have put so much work into it in the first place if I didn't think so.

'So much work'? David and Gerry were popping these things out in minutes. What are you talking about?

And personally to you, Jim (and no one else has to read this) - while I agree with your point about it being unfair for people to talk behind your back on a forum in which you cannot respond, I think the reason that you have gotten little positive response or agreement on this point is because you have coupled it with criticism and downright defamation of Runamok (not to mention me). That has made it hard to separate out the real issues here. I think it's become obvious that many people agree with your point about not being talked about behind your back, but that they might not also agree with your feelings about Runamok, me, or anyone else on the RE forum. I have tried, but not always successfully to make that point in my posts here.

What you tried to do is cover for Run, initially. At that time you bvent way too far backwards to find an out for him. You said things to agree with him -- and this disagree with me -- that were frankly preposterous. Hey, I've got a question for you? Okay?

Say there's a dispute on the forum. Say X emails Y and says 'blah, blah, blah -- this is my real opinion but it's mine to share if and when I want. Keep it to yourself' Say X then posts an opinion that opposes what Y says and also contradicts the so-called 'real' opinion that X emailed to Y. Could you please tell me by what principle Y is obliged to keep that email under wraps?

See, I don't get that myself. I see you having a nice Katie moment talking about all the defamatory things I've said about you and Run but, as you and I both know, there are aspects to this story that aren't public. Aspects that make you look very hypocritical and which explain, if not fully justify, my current anger. So perhaps you could explain to me just why I'm ethically obliged to let you have it both ways, all ways, at my expense?

I don't have to dislike Runamok to agree with you, and I don't have to like you to agree with you. One of the things I most dislike about this forum is the personality battle that occurs here - where people have a knee-jerk response to someone's post because of WHO is posting it, not what is said. And again, I hope this doesn't occur here, and that you will read my post and hear what I have to say.

Yes, I've read it and I've heard what you have to say. You want to talk about the ethical issuse regarding posting on a private forum about others on the main forum? I can do that. You want to talk about whether there should even be a private forum to begin with, I can do that too.

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Date: Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 00:02:33 (GMT)
From: Einstine
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Thanks -- that's it
Message:
Say there's a dispute on the forum. Say X emails Y and says 'blah, blah, blah -- this is my real opinion but it's mine to share if and when I want. Keep it to yourself' Say X then posts an opinion that opposes what Y says and also contradicts the so-called 'real' opinion that X emailed to Y. Could you please tell me by what principle Y is obliged to keep that email under wraps?


And when will the train arrive in California if it leaves Boston at 2:30 am, Tuesday, March 1st, stopes for 3 hours in Buffalo, NY, breaks down in Kalamazoo, MI for 17 hours. Then a 2nd train is dispatched to transport the passangers the rest of the way to San Diego?
NEVER! The train broke in MI and NEVER got to it's destination!

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Date: Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 23:46:54 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Thanks -- that's it
Message:
I'm telling you - in case you didn't HEAR it - that I've changed my mind several times in the course of this whole dispute. I am also telling you that you have made me VERY angry, that Runamok has made me very angry, and that I've made public posts, and sent e-mails to both of you when I was very angry. I am saying that I have said things both in public and private that I later have regretting saying - especially when you are threatening to throw them back in my face (and isn't that exactly what you are doing?).

I have said this to you in e-mail, and I'm saying it in public now. I have read all my e-mails to you, and I am sure you could quote things out of context that make me look like I'm contradicting myself here and on the forum, but basically, I was trying to say the same thing to you that I've said here on the forum - even in the one that you recently sent to me as part of one of several extremely abusive e-mails that I have received from you in the past few days. I have also told Runamok the same thing in e-mail - in fact I have COPIED him some of the e-mails I sent to you.

I thought, very foolishly, that you were someone that I could trust - well, you are NOT. And I hope that everyone here knows that you will publish or threaten to publish any kind of private communication if it helps you make a good argument or demolish someone else's case. I am not on the witness stand here, Jim - however, I have realized that when I post here or communicate with you in any way, I need to think and act like I am on the witness stand, that you are the lawyer on the other side, and that you regard the forum as a jury. In other words, you will use ANYTHING I say against me. I didn't agree to post on the forum under those terms, and I didn't agree to e-mail you on those terms.

I don't OWE you a damn thing, Jim, and you know it. You have never ONCE stuck up from me on this forum - instead from day one, you have continually attacked me, ridiculed me, and publically thought it was funny when other people - INCLUDING premies - attacked me. You appear to put your own personal dislikes and likes WAY ahead of any feeling you might have about Maharaji - and I think everyone here has just had an ample demonstration of that fact.

One statement of fact: I do NOT 'call the shots' on the Recent Exes forum, and your implication of this is completely unfounded in fact. The only way I could 'call the shots' on that forum is by agreeing to be the Forum Administrator again, and I do not want to adminster any of the ex-premie forums ever again. I care a lot about most of the other ex-premies here, but I have to take care of myself first.

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Date: Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 00:09:53 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: heller@bc1.com
To: Katie
Subject: Almost, but let me qualify that
Message:
I'm telling you - in case you didn't HEAR it - that I've changed my mind several times in the course of this whole dispute.

When did you say that? Please show me, cause you must be right. I missed it.

I thought, very foolishly, that you were someone that I could trust - well, you are NOT. And I hope that everyone here knows that you will publish or threaten to publish any kind of private communication if it helps you make a good argument or demolish someone else's case.

That's not exactly true. I won't publish any private communication just like that. However, if someone says privately that they agree with me about something but asks me to keep it to myself, and then that person takes a public stand against me on that subject, well, that's why I was asking? What do you think the ethical obligations are in a case like that?

You have to admit that talking out of bothsides of your mouth creates problems, not just for you but for others too, eh?

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Date: Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 00:59:36 (GMT)
From: Lawyers can't post on Fv
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Almost, but let me qualify that
Message:
anymore: TOO DENSE!! Give everybody a brake!! You broke everybody's balls enough.

S T O P

Please, stop. S T O P

S T O P

S T O P

S T O P

Not that you will, but it was fun to press the keys.

S T O P......................

Narcicism is a characteristic....bla, bla, bla, I rather be stupid. And please, dont tell me anymore 'fuck you', directly or indirectly. Many of us have good memory. Go for a walk.
Fresh air helps better people's moods, u know?

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Date: Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 01:15:59 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: heller@bc1.com
To: Lawyers can't post on Fv
Subject: Do I know you?
Message:
That voice ... Do I know you from somewhere?
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Date: Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 00:24:52 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Almost, but let me qualify that
Message:
Well, believe it or not, Jim, someone says privately that they agree with me about something but asks me to keep it to myself, and then that person takes a public stand against me on that subject has happened to me several times on this forum. So why the hell do you care what I think? You must know by now. I guess it depends what your own ethical feelings about it are. And if you have no ethics, maybe you should get out your lawbooks.

And where in the hell are you getting the idea that I haven't made it abundantly clear to both you and Runamok and everyone else on the forum (who DO NOT care and do not even want to hear about it any more) what I think about this?

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Date: Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 00:52:56 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: heller@bc1.com
To: Katie
Subject: Calm down now, Katie
Message:
Katie, I'm sorry that that happened to you. I didn't know. What did you do about it?

And my own ethical feelings, to tell you the truth, are confused. On the one hand, I think the person who tells you 'X' but argues 'no-X' on the forum deserves to have her emails publicised. On the other hand, I think that's not right because, well, mainly because that's what she's asked. So that's why I asked. I think it's a bit of a though one. What do you think?

And where in the hell are you getting the idea that I haven't made it abundantly clear to both you and Runamok and everyone else on the forum (who DO NOT care and do not even want to hear about it any more) what I think about this?

That's not what I said.

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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 22:46:21 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Charlie
Subject: Moanin'n'Groanin
Message:
All you are missing is a few Zeltas, and good company!

No seriously, hang on in, leave the forum if you need, and look after that wonderful wife and children of yours:-) I'm jealous - all I have to support is Leeds United:-(

John.

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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 20:28:52 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Charlie
Subject: Moanin'n'Groanin
Message:
Dear Charlie,
Your right you know, well I know. I didn't need any help about m when I found the forum. Was just at a company that was going out of business and there was less and less to do. I have always enjoyed the social side of the forum. That may annoy people but it is honest. I also felt that I may help support someone out or from getting into the cult. Some people think I am useless in that regard but some I have helped tell me different and for that I am glad.
I think many of us have addictive personalities, I know I do and now I feel addicted to the forums, off and on but on for to long now. I have gone beyond the forum and made some good friends from here which is great. Met some and made life long friends I belive. I was thinking about a post to Anth and saying how I have become this person with piles of papers all over, I am deep in disorganization and it sucks. I have never been like this and since reading your post, which I didn't finish right away but went and made some good progress on cleaning the kitchen!, I realized that it started when I got a computer at home! It is true!
I really found lots of great people here and living in the country and it being winter and all I have the excuse that it is ok, it is a social outlet for me, and it is, but it is more then that, an escape from my life! I've known it for sometime but have been making light of it or ignoring it completely.
I also learned a valuable lesson here which has had some applications in my physical life as well and that is how to deal with bullies. I once told Jim I thought he would help me with that and of course it pissed him off but I have watched myself go from being devistated by his attackes to realizing I was worth preserving and just avoided him to finally standing up to him without hurting myself in the process. This is not said here to start something but it is a powerful thing for me.
I saw a post by Gerry in all this bull shit where he said that he and Jim, pman, Katie and possibly me should leave. It kind of pissed me off at the time and I am not sure why he included me or anyone on the list but for myself, in thinking about it later I thought there was a lot of truth to it. I have never been one to announce my departure and I don't know if I will depart but I am going to make a conserted effort be more in my life, start to face those piles of papers for one! Look for another job, clean my car, whatever.
Thanks Charlie, say hi to Lee for me. Hope to meet you some day.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 22:40:14 (GMT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Moanin'n'Groanin
Message:
Robyn,
I have to confess that I, like you, enjoy the social stuff--the stuff that takes place away from here between real people--the best of all. It's much more real than this place is. This can be fun, but I think you know what I mean. Meeting and connecting on a more personal level is what I like. This place helped me make some life long friends.

Think about what we have in common--the common denominator that attracts us to this place. We have things in common--for instance the kind of people we are. We are people who wanted to experience peace and bliss. We accepted people for who they were. We were loving and gentle souls. We wanted to transcend our human/physical experience and be part of something more (what WERE we thinking? snicker!) We wanted to know the meaning of life, truth, etc. I'm sure there is more to say about this, but what I am saying is that I feel a connection to the people here.

I agree with Charlie that it's not good to let it take over your life, but I am glad I have met so many of you.
See you this summer!
VP

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Date: Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 01:08:41 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Moanin'n'Groanin
Message:
Dear Veep,
You know I have a crush on you. :) Good thing I like your wife! :) It will be nice to meet you and your tall blonde.
Of course I like meeting people here because of that common denominator. It is a good jumping off point. I have formed great life long friendships, I hope, with some people I haven't met yet, like you, but meeting has always added so much more. Looking forward to it for the meeting and the fact that it will mean winter is OVER!
Happy V-day.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 18:22:22 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Charlie
Subject: take care of yourself first!
Message:
Hi Charlie. Although this is (how many times is this line going to be used? - not about me) but anyway sorry if I contributed to your angst.
What your describe is what I have come to see as
classic internet addiction. I love the humourous
(though not to you at the moment I doubt) descriptions
of the extra fifty pounds, the chips and beer,
etc.

I have lost the weight I gained but have NO muscle tone.

My downfall is I work on the damned machines, and at all hours
can use the justification of my online consulting via
email, checking jobs running, etc.

It IS addicting and I wholehearedly sympathize.
Can't say much more because I don't know what I'm
doing about it. And I do agree there is still some
good.

But if it isn't good take a break if you can.

Some people either don't get in deep because they
just are cursed with that type of awareness, to try
to put it 'nicely' or they are smart enough not to.

I tend to have severe mood swings and this is a very dangerous place for me. 2 years ago when I exited it was a perfect place for me because all my rage was directed at the cult.
Now it's confusing.

I'm rambling. No matter. Good luck whatever you decide.

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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 19:07:23 (GMT)
From: Ms. K
Email: None
To: Charlie
Subject: Charlie's reality check
Message:
Hi Charlie -
Thanks very much for the post - a very needed dose of reality.

Like Selene, I'd like to apologize to you and everyone for my part in prolonging the ex vs. ex squabbles on the forum. (Selene, how about a category for having the most posts you WISH had been deleted!)

Take care, Charlie - and thanks again -
Katie

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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 20:00:28 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: heller@bc1.com
To: Ms. K
Subject: Katie's reality check
Message:
Like Selene, I'd like to apologize to you and everyone for my part in prolonging the ex vs. ex squabbles on the forum.

Oh Katie,

You're so SWEET and that's just so THOUGHTFUL. My, my, don't we feel good about ourselves now?

Tell me, Katie, just what did you ever do to prolong this squabble?

It couldn't have been jumping in to Run's defence the other day, finding some absolutely ridiculous argument, anything, to make in his support? Couldn't have been that, could it?

Or you're not second-guessing yourself now for making this nutbar FA of RE so that he can put an official gloss on his bizarre view of the forum and me in particular and be able to share that privately, in confidence, with every new person who leaves the cult and ends up here. You're not doing that, are you, Katie?

You are just such a fucking manipulator! And you know what? You know it. You don't need me to tell you that. Thanks for having the guts to deal with this cleanly.

Not!

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Date: Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 03:43:43 (GMT)
From: Passer by
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Katie's reality check
Message:
An accurate observation Jim - and also may I add - the nauseating love bombing of 'recent exes' PUKE!!!
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Date: Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 05:06:12 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Passer by
Subject: YOUR reality check
Message:
Now whoever you are, here's a reality check for you.

As far as I'm concerned, we haven't even really heard from anyone who's part of the RE forum, besides Run that is, about their version about how the RE forum was broken into and by whom.
Just certain snippets of allegations here and there. If they have something to say, these people have voices here, and they can speak up for themselves and do so as real people and not as some dinky, anonymous troll like YOU!

Of course there's always Run again, and sometimes you gotta wonder if he ain't some dinky anonymous troll himself. I mean he certainly seems to be falling into a web of petty of lies and deceit in denying what can only be equated with a smear campaign against Jim and speaking of 'love bombing', a campaign to bring back the one who brought us the 'medical info mess' as well.

Wouldn't that be lovely now?? NOT,IMO, and for some very obvious reasons which I'd love to share with you, but I feel like I should keep these conversations, with dinky anonymous trolls like yourselves that is...well I feel like I want to keep them kind of short.

No offence of course:::))

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Date: Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 04:09:04 (GMT)
From: Another passer by
Email: None
To: Passer by and Co
Subject: Katie's reality
Message:
You wish to be like her perhaps, but you can't because you are made of cold steel?
Playing God, perhaps?
Oh you, So correct all the time.
You need to continue talking, as to convince
yourself of what YOU want to believe.
Give it a rest. Nobody cares.
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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 19:19:19 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Ms. K
Subject: Charlie's reality check
Message:
I know Ms. K - I have to say the ratio of posts
I wish were deleted is about 50 to 1
btw I mean 'are not cursed with this type of awareness'

it's a line from Bull Durham, not that anyone
cares. What ever happened to the days when premies
were the ones who came on here and were confronted?

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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 19:23:23 (GMT)
From: oops
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: i did it again (nt)
Message:
Did'nt mean to. no one answer me!
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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 18:02:34 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: heller@bc1.com
To: Charlie
Subject: Moanin'n'Groanin
Message:
Charlie, I just tried to send you an email but it bounced. Could you send me one and I'll reply?

Thanks

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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 18:24:30 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: heller@bc1.com
To: Jim
Subject: Moanin'n'Groanin
Message:
Charlie,

My sentiments are just like yours in so many respects. Especially the 'Heads you win, Tails I lose' dilemna. Fuck! I'd already put the guru to bed out in the garden of my mind so nicely before this net thing happened. Sure, I'd talk about it all whenever I came across a former premie or someone who wanted to muse over a weird belief system ('Hey, I know one!'). But nothing like this.

You know, I'd actually thought that I might be walking away for good this last time. No shit. I quit in December without fanfare. No 'See you later's, no 'I'll be back in a month'. Shit, I just took off. And it felt great.

What brought me back? Besides my own compulsion, I mean? Runanduck! I kept lurking and was able to do that, this time, without too much difficulty. Oh, I know, you'll all say that that was my big mistake and of course you're right. But what I started to read were these posts where Run kept trying to get my goat, taunitng me to start posting again, lying about me, shit like that. And then when someone gave me the RE password and I saw what he was saying there .... Well that did it.

Charlie, let me ask you something? Forget about how long this has dragged on, how distasteful all this shit is for everyone (I can just imagine). Let me just ask you this though, if I could:

Say you were a former member of a cult who was active in trying to confront the cult on the internet. Say some other former cult member keeps pestering you, calling you the Leader of the Ex-Cult Members and chiding you for not living up to his expectations. Say you told that guy to fuck off. Say he got really bitter and wormed his way into a private, confidential but official subset of the ex-cult site where, you learned, he was secretly campaigning against you in the most bizarre terms, calling you a murderer, cult-leader, abusive authoirty figure, shit like that. Say you also learned that, while some might laugh behind his back, no one ever confronted this crazy fool. Say, in fact, they made him in charge of that same private, confidential, official subgroup.

Say that group wanted to invite all new people just leaving the cult to join it secret membership.

How would you feel? Bemused? Flattered? Indifferent?

I've felt all of them. But what I settled on was pissed off.

But that's just me, of course. How would you feel?

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Date: Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 09:17:44 (GMT)
From: Charlie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Groanin response
Message:
Jim,

I see you are trying to call me as a sort of witness in a trial of Runamok. I believe you have posted this question several times before to other exes and I am wondering if you are forming a consensus so that Run can be declared unfit for whatever it is he does and duly run out of town. Do do run run.

Anyway, couldn't answer your question yesterday as I had to go to bed. Today I have had many other delays ppreventing a quick response.

I think that you have set out your question and framed it in such a way so that I can only give one answer. Yes, if I were in your shoes, I too would be fuming from these allegations. However I reckon it's like being asked what I would want to do with the rapist of a close member of my family. Would I want the culprit to be given 'fair treatment' after 'trial' or would I just like to cut his head and balls off. To be honest I would want blood regardless of ethics.

The fact is, I haven't seen any of these inflammatory posts that reportedly exist on RE but if I had and those posts are as you say I hardly think I would have thought... 'Wow, fancy that, Jim of all people, a murderer! And to think he's a lawyer by day to boot!
No, of course not. Sadly because I have already witnessed many exchanges by both of you already going back months and covering many subjects, the truth is that I would have ignored those threads. And you know thats most probably the reason I haven't seen any of those posts and stopped reading RE.

In the end I don't think Runamok actually harms you much at all. He annoys you. If anbody harms Jim Heller, I think it's Jim Heller. As a 'for instance' an example of you damaging your own reputation IMO is your attitude towards Katie which is extremely acidic and intimidating. I think you make a reputation for yourself as a blaggard. Surely this is bad politics for you as every ex here (even Runamok) would also agree with me that you've provided the forum with some choice input on many other occasions. I see you as a double edged sword. 'Yeah! Did you see the way Jim sorted that smug premie out there? Oh shit, look out he's coming for us now!!!'

When I made my exit from the cult I felt very fragile and it was folk like Katie who provided a comforting presence on this board. Her position regardless of what you think is valuable to those feeble people such as myself. Jim, I would never have called on you to lend me a shoulder to cry on. When I first ran across you I think you were banging somebody's head off the edge of cyberspace. So anyway, need I say it hurts me when I hear you sounding off at Katie, whose only crime is being 'too nice'. So far my attitude is to walk on by these conflicts and hope they'll die away with the less attention payed to them. Maybe you think that this is creepy? As many a recent ex I am full of contradictions but I'd prefer if they were resoved more gently at times.

Maybe you already know that I was one of the original posters on the RE forum. At the time of it's inception there was a lot of wrangling on F-IV and I was aware of many premies I knew who were reading the forum at that time. It is a fact that they were reading my posts and would talk to me later on the phone. I was not completely sure of myself and needed to talk to someone away from the hurly burly without fear of hurting my old friends' feelings and then being subjected to their disdain later on. OK, that was cowardly. I had real problems and wanted confidentiality. The RE forum provided that for me. I posted for a couple or three weeks after which time anything else I had to say could very well be said openly on FIV-V. I felt much stronger and surer of my decisions re the cult!

Since that time I have looked in very rarely at RE (certainly less than you) and yes there will be occasions when contributors there will pass opinions about life on FV. I guess it's only to be expected. Some of them would never post to this forum because they're too nervous to enter the affray. But there's no point looking at the exes on RE and shouting 'Wimps!!' They're also trying to deal with the Maharaji madness but in their way. Let them get on with it. It stands to reason that gossip is going to happen, like it or not. It's a sort of social regulator. If somebody calls me a shit I wouldn't like it but everyone's entitled to their opinion, it wouldn't change me. However if there was a chorus of people shouting at me I'd take a look at what I'm doing or the way I'm doing it.

Does this answer all your points?

No. I didn't say what I think should be done with Runamok as RE administrator. My first inclination is to say let him carry on until somebody else steps up for a go at the controls. I would hope RE is run democratically as democracy should at the very least prevent dictatorship. Anyway I don't see Runamok as a dictator for all his sins. Just rather too obsessed about forum etiquette which is also one of my least favourite topics. I've never wanted to get into the politics of the forum and take sides. I've never wanted to make enemies on the forum but I see now that here like all areas of life there's conflict. If I were in Runamoks shoes I'd be too embarrassed to continue with the job. I'd step down as RE. But I'm not Runamok and if my estimation of him is marginally correct I don't think he has any plans for retirement.

One thing I have come to understand is that no matter how mad the cult is/was, when we were in it we were mostly united in one spirit. Bad management and members generally coming to their senses has caused the cult to begin to crumble. Now as an alternative, for us Ex-premies there is no unity other than we would all like to see Mr. Rawatt get clobbered. IMO if we are ever to see this come to pass we must keep our eye on the ball and sort of ignore the fact that some other ex-premies here might believe in Feng Shui or whatever. I am sure that some people will just think this answer to you stinks, but c'est la vie.

Charlie

PS. It has taken a lot for me to get this note typed up. The last twenty four hours has been intense with commitments from family and work. When I returned to post I noticed some other comments on the thread. I will try not to ignore those comments but it may be another 24.

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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 19:53:15 (GMT)
From: JB
Email: None
To: Selene / Ms K
Subject: Moanin'n'Groanin
Message:
Those were very nice and revealing posts.
You're nice.

JB

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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 20:05:22 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: JB
Subject: Moanin'n'Groanin
Message:
Don't start
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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 20:04:02 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: heller@bc1.com
To: JB
Subject: Katie meet JB, JB meet Katie
Message:
Yes , JB, Katie's very, very, very nice. That's what she is, nice. You want nice? You call Katie.

You want truth, you're going to have to look a little harder but if you want nice, you've come to the right place.

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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 20:30:06 (GMT)
From: JB
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Katie meet JB, JB meet Katie
Message:
OK, done.
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Date: Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 19:14:02 (GMT)
From: Ms. K/Katie
Email: mishkat@gateway.net
To: JB
Subject: Uh, JB
Message:
Just wanted to repeat what Selene said - please don't start. I think you know that I'm not always 'nice' here.

Katie

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Date: Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 18:55:14 (GMT)
From: JB
Email: None
To: Ms. K/Katie
Subject: Uh, JB
Message:
<<< not always nice here>>>

Well K, maybe not. But you've got a brain. And I repect that.

JB

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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 16:34:38 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: The Friends of Charles Darwin - please join (ot)
Message:
My long-time drinking pal, Richard, and I have launched a campaign to have the memory of Charles Darwin commemorated on a banknote alongside the other notable British scientists who have already been thus honoured. We would also like to see Darwin awarded a posthumous knighthood since his services to humanity are surely at least as important as those of Sirs Cliff Richard, Andrew Lloyd Webber, Jeffrey Archer and - er - Robert Maxwell, wouldn't you say?

Please help the Friends of Charles Darwin

Nigel (aka. Craig Fitzroy)

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Date: Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 05:23:09 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: The Friends of Charles Darwin - please join (ot)
Message:
Nigel:

People would probably mistake him for Karl Marx.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 10:34:38 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Scott T.
Subject: Could be worse...
Message:
Well, just so long as it isn't Sigmund Freud...

Hey, I didn't mention the incentive, did I? Namely an exclusive, FREE 'Friends of Charles Darwin' bumper sticker! Check it out, everyone. I promise this ain't a cult!

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Date: Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 22:19:25 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Why, of course Charlie is my Darwin!
Message:
Nigel: Where do you get this stuff???? I know, the internet, of course!

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Charlie is my Darwin, my Darwin, my Darwin,
Charlie is my Darwin,
Our one great pioneer.

HEY! :-)

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Date: Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 11:24:28 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Mike
Subject: Thanks all who have signed up already!
Message:
Hi Mike,

I understand that the poet Torn Rubbers (anagram of 'Robert Burns') might be Larkin's identical twin, separated at birth.

Anyway, thanks for the HEY!-:)

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Date: Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 19:04:22 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Yeah, but......
Message:
Nigel: Does Torn Rubbers compare the sweet sound of a violin to the never-ending, monotonous din of an M-screech? I just can't see the connection..... unless we're talking about a violin in the hands of a neophyte.... Now, THAT would be more akin to the sound of m talking! he he he :-)
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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 16:18:12 (GMT)
From: Larkin
Email: larkin@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: Valentine to the Lard (repost)
Message:
my lord is like a red, red wine
so rich, and often drunk
as cuddly as a porcupine
as fragrant as a skunk
as distant as the milky way
(much better viewed from far away)
and as for those wise words you say
i've never heard such bunk.

my lord is like a panto queen
so cute in krishna crown
who waves a flute he cannot toot
and capers like a clown
but when he wiggles, heaven's above,
our souls cry out: we're all yours, guv,
just take us in the name of love!
you've won this round, hands down.

my lord is like a spoiled brat
who never once knew hardship
who's charity's an enterprise
and I don't mean the starship
whose dupes that follow in his way
will all sign up to work all day
receive no thanks, nor even pay
to serve his perfect lardship

my lord is like a violin
but wider round the middle
whose same old tune's a vile din
the whole damn cult's a fiddle
if shit were brains, with your IQ
you'd never need to use the loo
the one gold-plated just for you
except, perhaps, to widdle.

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Date: Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 22:23:16 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Larkin
Subject: Ahhhh. did ya have to pick on violins that way?
Message:
Larkin: I'm disappointed..... comparing him to a skunk, OK; comparing him to a porcupine, OK; but a violin???????? The sweet sound of a violin?????? he he he he :-)

EXCELLENT, once again Master Larkin!

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Date: Thurs, Feb 17, 2000 at 18:41:54 (GMT)
From: cqg
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: er,... Mike, isn't he 'on the fiddle'? Doh! (nt)
Message:
er,... Mike, isn't he 'on the fiddle'? (nt)

Doh!

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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 17:31:25 (GMT)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Larkin
Subject: hilarious! (nt)
Message:
Haaa...
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Date: Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 19:48:56 (GMT)
From: cqg
Email: None
To: Larkin
Subject: Bravo!the tune?-'My Love is like a Red Red Nose?nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 03:59:16 (GMT)
From: BJ
Email: None
To: G,R,H,,VP et al
Subject: The psychic group/thread too long
Message:
Whew- needed room for con't thread. Ok, right?

Hey this group seems like if you haven't read this before you all would like this emensely sp?

Meher Baba from The Everything and The Nothing

Chapter one - The Lover and the Beloved

'God is Love. And Love must love. And to love there must be a Beloved. But since God is Existence infinite and eternal there is no one for Him to love but Himself as the Beloved whom He as the Lover imagines He loves.

Beloved and Lover implies separation. And separation creates longing; and longing causes search. And the wider and the more intense the search the greater the separation and the more terrible the longing.

When longing is most intense separation is complete, and the purpose of separation,which was that Love might experience itself as Lover and Beloved, is fulfilled; and union follows. And when union is attained, the Lover knows that he himself was all along the Beloved whom he loved and desired union with; and that all the impossible situations that he overcame were obstacles which he himself had placed in the path to himself.

To attain union is so impossibly difficult because it is impossible to become what you already are! Union is nothing other than knowledge of oneslf as the Only One.'

That was the entire chapter. Sigh.

BJ

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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 17:24:18 (GMT)
From: Charlie
Email: None
To: BJ
Subject: The psychic group/thread too long
Message:
I don't want to get into anything too deep with this one it's just a sort of statement.

At the weekend I noticed this thread started by VP regarding psychics and how the cops often use their services to help find missing persons and serial killers etc. I didn't have anything particularly intelligent to say but quipped something like 'the cops should arrest the psychic who found the body in the shallow grave'. I noticed later that there was quite a thread building on VPs question and a few remarks hitting back at my sarcasm.

Robyn told me of a psychic experience she had and G also was not pleased with what I said. To be honest I don't know what to say, but...

When I came to Maharaji I was full of ideas about a world of hidden mystic meanings and great wonder. After I got nollige I went on to meet many premies who fortified my own concepts (dodgy word there) and introduced me to so many new ideas that would extend my 'cosmic' view of the world. I just lapped it up.

During that period I had loads of psychic experiences. I had so many visions they were running out of my fucking ears.

I was no stranger to weird happenings either. During my teens when my father died I had a so called premonition except I got it slightly wrong. I had spent a couple of days before thinking my mother was dead. She had gone to visit her sister for a few days and I had this dreadful feeling that I would never see her alive again. I was on edge all the time. If a telephone rang I would jump to my feet thinking it was bad news for me, even when it was a telephone in somebody else's house where nobody knew me. Can you imagine my surprise when it turned out to be my Dad who I found dead on my bedroom floor when I came in from work. I sat alone with his body on the floor and held his hand which was turning colour but was still fairly warm. I played my new Jimi Hendrix album Eclectic Ladyland - When the Gods make Love. A neighbour who was in the house making tea for the grief stricken knocked on my door and asked me to be more respectful. I turned up the volume, it was the best mark of respect I had for him.

Here's another. On a bus several years later while going to Malaga Spain to see M I awoke at night while we were still travelling through the countryside of northern Spain. All the lights were out and the only things within the bus that were visually discernable were the shapes of seats and the premies slumped in them and on each other in sleep, their silhouettes set against the starlit sky. Suddenly I became aware of a woman looking at me from the window on the other side of the bus. I could see that the occupants of the seats were laying against each other and the seats only came in pairs. For a moment I thought it might be somebody crawling up the outside of the bus. No, not that. This was some sort of vision. I swear I recall it so clearly I could make a photofit if need be. Her face was illuminated so I could see she was very beautiful. She wore a scarf on her head which was tight (tightish) across her forehead and was edged with meddles or jewels. She was staring at me for ages. For some time after this I was sure there must be some significance. Was there f***!

So anyway where am I today with all this stuff. Nowhere. Believing in my hunches as though there were premonitions is just so much extra bunkham for me to lug about. Maharaji was a parasite on my consciousness. A parasite that shaded me from light and common sense. I have discovered other smaller parasites that have gained strength living within the canopy of Maharaji. I have come to the conclusion that if you can't touch it and smell it, it ain't there. The mind is a powerful thing and there's much we don't understand but because I'm stuck for an answer doesn't mean I'll substitute magical theories in the meantime. Anyway those dreamy visions and things don't amount to anything, they're just curious.

I might be a bit twisted and cynical but I have put anything that doesn't stand up to scientific scrutiny out in the cold. My view sometimes seems to upset many exes as well as many other 'New Agey' people I know but 'tough titty' is all I can say. Aroma therapy, magnetic therapy, crystal therapy, psychic surgery and homeopathy be gone!

Now then, where's that tab of acid I lost in my desk drawer.

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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 19:59:04 (GMT)
From: JB
Email: None
To: Charlie
Subject: The psychic group/thread too long
Message:
Nice post - but tell us what you REALLY feel. :)
JB
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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 19:10:09 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Charlie
Subject: The psychic group/thread too long
Message:
Dear Charlie,
I hope you didn't think my telling the thing that happened to me was in any way 'dissing' you. I am to old to say that word I guess but sometimes it just fits. :)
That experience about the fire did have significance which was later proved to me and I KNEW it was true when it happened so I can see that others may have developed this ability, certainly I haven't.
Other experiences I have, day time visions or whatever, I don't attach specific import or meaning to. I just like them. They are intresting and curious as you mentioned. Like little gifts from life to keep it interesting. I think the brain does have levels of ability that we don't understand and maybe there is just no meaning to them but I still enjoy them.
If you've ever seen David Blaine you may think there are lots of magical things possible, like levitation etc but it is just that magic. He is amazing but it is just magic.
Or I've heard others talk about astro planing and so I think maybe it is possible but unless I have done it it isn't true for me. I just go on my experiences and shit I don't think any less of you because of your feelings on the whole thing. I think you a damn great guy! :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 06:28:00 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: The psychic group/thread too long
Message:
Robyn:

Lately I've been thinking about the 'meaning of life' and have a list of things it isnt: wealth, true love, the inside scoop on God, the inside scoop on controlling nature, the unification of the sciences, etc. etc. So, long story short, it has to be either fame or this isn't life in the first place. When I was crazy in the sixties I used to get this experience once in awhile that was like I could feel 'circulation.' It was sort of like the way your foot feels after it's been asleep and the blood starts to flow again and the feeling returns and you know you have a foot. Only this was like my head and heart came alive, and I could get a whiff of something that didn't smell like an after-image, like something that wasn't on it's way to being just a memory. Well, I was crazy... what can I say. So, I guess it's fame...

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 03:20:09 (GMT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Fame sucks
Message:
Fame?--NO THANKS. Money without fame is the way to go, sorry to tell ya.

True Love may not be the meaning of life, but it can sure give meaning to life. I have come to know that there are some people I will love forever. I used to think it was horseshit that some things were meant to be, but now I know that some things are 'right'--that two people can be made for each other. Thank God I'm not too cynical to stop believing this. Not yet, anyway.

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Date: Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 03:22:52 (GMT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Fame doesn't suck as much as my writing
Message:
I think that should have read, 'Thank God that I am not cynical enough to stop believing in this.' But what do I know? Just that I need to go to bed.
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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 18:08:24 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: heller@bc1.com
To: Charlie
Subject: I am you and you are me and see how we are we are
Message:
all together....

Charlie, I'm just like that too. I figure there are different settings on the magical thinking acceptance /rejection scale. Wherever you are, that kind of sounds like me. Hmm.... no, I'm a little more to this side, if you know what I mean. But around the same place.

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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 10:39:08 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: BJ
Subject: Meher Baba's Silence.
Message:
Hi BJ,

Didn't Meher Baba take a vow of silence for about 30 years.

Judging by the above, he was doing us all a favour.

Pity Maharaji can't attain the same high level of realisation and stop the waterfall of patent spiritual guff that pours from his mouth at regular intervals.

Anth Spouter of His Own Crap But Not Claiming To Gods Sole Representative On Earth.

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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 12:37:44 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Meher Baba's Silence.
Message:
Didn't Meher Baba take a vow of silence for about 30 years.

He probably got embarassed by all his confused ramblings about what love is, so he figured it would be wiser to keep his mouth shut.

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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 14:10:35 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Meher Baba's Silence.
Message:
Actualli meherbaba took a vow of silence for 25 or 30 years after which he sais he would speak the word that would shake the world.
I fact he kicked the bucket in the year he said he would break the silence(1966).
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Date: Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 17:30:53 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Wasnt' that the year Krakatoa blew up? (nt)
Message:
boom
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Date: Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 00:09:17 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: I kid you not
Message:
Micheal Green (a premie) told me that m became satguru in 1966 was what Meher Baba meant when he said that he would utter the word that would shake the world after 25 years of silence.
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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 05:42:18 (GMT)
From: Mu
Email: None
To: BJ
Subject: The psychic group/thread too long
Message:
Meher Baba:

'To attain union is so impossibly difficult because it is impossible to become what you already are! Union is nothing other than knowledge of oneself as the Only One.'

From buddha: ' I am That'

From christ: 'heaven is within'

From Mu: 'You are That - Love - The I Am'

What looks out of your eyes is love is everything is you is me is buddha is christ conciousness is --- Jim? Maybe! :-)

HOHOHOHOH and HAHAHAHA ;-)

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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 04:11:23 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: heller@bc1.com
To: BJ
Subject: Maybe God would like to father your baby?
Message:
I don't know, BJ. That stuff's pretty sexy.
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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 04:17:45 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: father her baby?
Message:
Nah, she wants me to (and wants twins).
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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 19:34:06 (GMT)
From: JB formerly BJ
Email: None
To: G
Subject: father her twins
Message:
Tell 'em, tell 'em all.

JB

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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 20:03:27 (GMT)
From: JB
Email: None
To: anyone
Subject: hey ,next post took hrs to post
Message:
posted again bec thought first one didn't take sorry
JB
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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 14:33:53 (GMT)
From: JB formerly known as BJ
Email: None
To: G
Subject: father her twins
Message:
Yeah, that's right. You tell 'em.
JB
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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 06:08:04 (GMT)
From: mantis
Email: None
To: G
Subject: is that the big bang? (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 04:27:23 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: heller@bc1.com
To: G
Subject: father her baby?
Message:
Yes, I noticed that. I just thought that God was the ultimate mind fuck and with a name like BJ she'd want the best.

But then maybe you're the best, G.

See? I wasn't thinking. Thanks.

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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 10:43:18 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, maybe 'G' is 'God'
Message:
and the 'Ultimate Mind Fuck' too.

Ah...the mysteries of cyberspace.

Anth Pilgrim on the Path to Pleasure.

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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 11:04:22 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Me, God?
Message:
Nah, I'm not God, except when I pretend to be Guru G Ji.
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Date: Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 17:59:06 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Didn't ...
Message:
...I see you in the light in my knowledge review in the Latvian Club on Sunday morning?

Anth the Meddling With the Unknown. (OOOOOOOOhhhhh)

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Date: Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 18:37:54 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Didn't ...
Message:
Yes my child, that was me you saw in my Guru G Ji form. If you would like to regress to an infantile state so that you may have the heart of a child, you may call me Googoo G Ji. Say it with as much infantile glee as possible. Or, if that is too difficult, just say Goo G Ji, or maybe just Goo.

G the chameleon

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Date: Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 22:31:24 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Goo ji, goo ji, goo?
Message:
I like it, I like it! he he he :-)

Sorry, I'm the court butt-in-ski, thought you should know that! :-)

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Date: Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 00:48:23 (GMT)
From: Goo ji
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Goo ji, goo ji, goo!
Message:
Yes my children, you are getting the knack of it.

Goo ji, goo ji, goo! That's very good! You are such good little children! For that, you get a veeery big smile from me.

Don't you see (you idiots), by regressing to the infantile state, the ability to deal with the cognitive dissonance caused by my transcendent chameleon abilities can be easily attained. It is only in this state that you may find peace. The apparent illogic of my contradictory behaviors and statements and the incongruity of my seeming limitations with the fact that I AM GOD incarnate (being a little humble here) is only an illusion caused by the adult mind. And you know, it's like, mind can get you BIG BIG trouble. So don't you be bad little children and try to think like adults, that is not for you, I will think for you.

Goo ji is such a super powerful being that if he says that 2 + 2 = 5, guess what, 2 + 2 = 5! Got that? You had better if you know what's good for you! If goo ji says 2 + 2 = 5, then asks you what is 2 + 2 and you don't answer '5' but something stupid like '4', do you know what is going to happen to you? You will be finished, gone, kaput, fanito, end of story! Capishe?

Ok, know that we got that straight, let me assure you that as long as you're not naughty, you will have my unending love.

Later, I will speak to you of true devotion (give me your money) and selfless service (give me your unpaid labor). For it is only through gratitude (give me more money) and participation (slave some more and give me more money) that you can be liberated (of your money, time and love).

Blessings to you all.

Love,
goo ji

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Date: Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 20:33:15 (GMT)
From: cqg
Email: None
To: Goo ji
Subject: Goo ji, goo ji, goo!
Message:
Seems you have a few followers already!
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Date: Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 19:10:10 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Goo ji
Subject: Oh, my Goo ji, you are so big and I.....
Message:
Goo: Am so small.....
When you smile you smile for all
Yes, you smile for all my lord

Tho' the sun may fall and the moon may die
I will always love you forever.....

(Cough..hack..sputter..wheeze......'I'm ok, now')

THERE.... was that simple (minded) enough, my Goo ji, Goo?

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Date: Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 21:24:13 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Oh, my Goo ji, you are so big and I.....
Message:
Oooohhh Eeeeee That was so nice!
Thank you for letting me be Goo ji
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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 04:33:47 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: father her baby?
Message:
I can loan out a year and a half year old for a
while. Just got a few hours break - I tell you
it makes nothing, nothing that goes on here seem
intense. I love him, don't get me wrong but WHEW!

Definite reality check. He kicked me in the eye I
bet no one at work will buy that story when I show
up with a puffed up eye tomorrow.

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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 10:59:11 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Black eyes from babies.
Message:
Ah, Selene,

One day you'll look back and see that black eye as a ruby on the necklace of motherhood.

We had two toddlers. Our second one, didn't give us a full night's sleep until he went to school. That's four and a half years of being woken in the night, 9x per night 1st year, 7x second year, 3 or 4 3rd year, and one or two fourth year.

He used to end up in bed with us every night, careful not to wake me up, because I always put him back in his own bed.

He's 22 this week, and has been known to come home completely drunk, and get into bed with us in exactly the same way as he did when he was a toddler. Dot and I crack up. It's so funny. And what's funnier, just like when he was little, he takes no notice of what she says to him.

Conversation goes something like,

'Luke, do you know you're in bed with us.'

'Yes that's fine'.

'Do you know you've got your legs in the arms of your coat, and you're inside the duvet cover?'

'Yes. That's OK. Everything's under control.'

Then I say, 'Luke, go to bed.'

'OK Dad', up he gets and staggers out the bedroom. Just like the old days.

Selene, I'm a heavy duty amateur historian and social observer. Without a doubt, the family, in whatever form it takes, is the basic building block of human society. It's where we learn all the important stuff.

Really nitty gritty human evolution, progress, advance, development, healing and growth takes place in an environment populated by demanding, egocentric babies and toddlers, and freaked out, chaotic, knackered, irritable parents.

Ask any sociologist, biologist, historian and observor of human kind.

You're on the front line Selene, doing your tour of duty for humanity.

You deserve a medal.

Anth the Mummy's Boy.

(Anybody who knows Luke, don't tell him I wrote this. And the rest of you keep it a secret OK?)

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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 21:23:09 (GMT)
From: cqg
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Secret? - me too? (nt)
Message:
I'll get you for this ;)
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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 16:41:45 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Black eyes from babies.
Message:
That was hilarious. YOU are the one who deserves
the medal. I wish I had had parents like that in
my drunken adolescent days (by the time I was
in my 20's they had kicked me out years ago)

What a great attitude. Must be a cutureal thing.
We are SO uptight here. (as if I needed to tell you that)

Selene - slightly puffy red eye
(and contender for most posts deleted in last four
months) :) :)

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Date: Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 17:56:36 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: I blame the parents.
Message:
Hi again Selene,

I was out of home as fast as possible too. I never went back much after 18.

I had a hard time with my father when I was growing up. He was affected by his experiences during and after the war, and never really recovered.

He was a truly wild Irishman, who died last November. Happily we'd got quite close for the last few years of his life, after he retired.

My brother and I turned him on with some Thai weed, at his retirement party. He took some off me before I left. A few days later my mother called up and said,

'You know what your father's done. He's scattered all this hamster food at the end of the garden. He thinks I don't know what he's up to. He thinks there's marijuana seeds in it. The bloody fool.'

Then my dad came on the phone, 'Hi. ...I've planted some of those seeds from that Thai grass you gave me at the top of the garden. I sprinkled some hamster food over it to put your mother off the scent.'

What a pair.

So, I digressed Selene. What I was getting round to was, you'll hopefully become the parent you wished you had.

So when your daughter comes home, at the age of 14, in love with her new biker boyfriend who's out on parole, you'll smile, put on the Rolling Stones, go into the kitchen to make sandwiches, open the gin bottle, drag it up to your lips...

anth the continued next week.

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Date: Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 20:07:50 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: I blame the parents.
Message:
Hi again anth
So you had a wild Irish father too huh? Nothing
like it is there? The stories I could tell!

I'd love to claim him as my own but the bruiser
baby in question is my grandson (as I said I had
a very wild mis-spent youth and had kids very young)

No wonder premiedom looked good huh?

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Date: Thurs, Feb 17, 2000 at 12:15:34 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Swings and Roundabouts.
Message:
Hi Selene,

I think we're about to go inactive.

Having children young looks like swings and roundabouts. (Do you have the expression, 'What you gain on the swings, you lose on the roundabouts.')

Whatever children gobble up of your youth, you get back before you get too old (as long as you stop having them) and vice versa.

Or something.

Take care, I can't wait for grandchildren. My boys are 22 and 24. It's the 22 year old's birthday today, and he's a hedonist like me, so I think we're going out to lunch soon.

take care,

anth the almost time to turn on, tune in and drop out again, but this time with a bit more material comfort I hope.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 17, 2000 at 19:59:59 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Swings and Roundabouts.
Message:
I wonder, I think I already did that. Guess the next stage I've learned is I found out I didn't have the 20 year old body to handle it and learned moderation - sigh. But the comfort stuff *is* nice.
I do like that part I admit.

selene - material girl

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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 17:23:09 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Now, there's an idea for a 'contest!'
Message:
Selene: Who has had the most posts deleted for a given period of time. The problem with giving a prize is that everyone would go for the 'threat' posts and all heck would break loose! But, a funny idea, nonetheless...... he he he ...... Hey, I got an idea, how about the most obnoxious and 'threats' aren't allowed to enter for prizes? Nahhhhhhh, bad idea...... :-)
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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 17:43:24 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Now, there's an idea for a 'contest!'
Message:
Very bad idea. Now Mike you are catching a bad
bug here.
Go hike the canyons. A much better idea.
And don't take a palmtop or even a laptop.
Just some ghee and something to dig a hole.
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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 18:14:04 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Thanks, mom!
Message:
Selene: Good prescription for what ails..... Actually, I'm going (hopefully) to be hiking another section of the Arizona Trail, this weekend. It's down in your area..... Redington Pass. It's not too long, but very pretty! :-)
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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 18:25:54 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Thanks, mom!
Message:
I go there a lot! Or used to before I readdicted
myself to this cursed forum. It is a rugged trail.
I'd have to stop every 20 feet at this point!

Enjoy. I would join you but I'd be such a wimp it
would be no fun for you.

Perfect weather for it. Good for you. The falls are
amazing. That will heal all that ails you.
MOM? That's a new one. I kinda like that new image.

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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 13:15:13 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Black eyes from babies.
Message:
Dear Anth,
Jesus god, am I glad I read that! :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 04:24:57 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: G
Subject: father her baby?
Message:
Dear BJ and G,
Funny but I always think alias' that are initials are men! And I always think G spot when I see you G. :)
Jim,
Don't you have to put your head over a steaming pot of something with a towel over your head or look over a case or something!?
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 14:29:29 (GMT)
From: BJ, now JB
Email: None
To: Robyn / AJW
Subject: Naive no longer
Message:
R - you mentioned something long ago and a friend actually had to point out that traditionally 'BJ' meant something other than an innocent handle.
Since some one else now mentioned it I am officially changing my handle to JB (Not the Archabald Macleash novel about Job - but I like the link).

AJW - I was surprised to say the least that anyone at all wouldn't appreciate in some way Meher Baba's chapter one.
And I guess Meher wrote on a chalk board to say things. I mean he wrote like entire books. I think there was some system.
I never understood - which doesn't matter- why take a vow of silence and then be so prolific. I know there was a point just don't know what it was. Guess you had to be there. Still respect it however.

JB

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Date: Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 05:56:11 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: BJ, now JB
Subject: Naive no longer
Message:
JB:

...traditionally 'BJ' meant something other than an innocent handle.
Since some one else now mentioned it I am officially changing my handle to JB...

'Big Jiggle,' becomes 'Jellie Bellie?' Personally, I'm aiming to acquire an aerodynamic tummy so that I'll be competitive in stomach-leading high speed athletic events. Is falling an olympic event yet? Come to think of it, they're all falling events aren't they? The history of sport is the history of stumbling, catching yourself, stumbling, catching yourself, and eventually being the first to go SPLAT, or to go the farthest before going SPLAT.

--AT (The key to longevity is to fall without ever actually going SPLAT.)

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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 15:39:20 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: BJ, now JB
Subject: Naive no longer
Message:
Dear JB,
Did I say that! If it is what comes to mind now, I am shocked even at myself! But seeing what I just told G about what his name puts me in mind of, I guess I could have done it. :|
When I was a premie there was a Scott who didn't speak for 8 months! He wrote notes though. Once we took LSD together and were making jewelery to sell at the next festival and we were communicting telepathically! Look ma, no calk boards! :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 14:48:10 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: BJ, now JB
Subject: Prolific?
Message:
I think there was some system. I never understood - which doesn't matter- why take a vow of silence and then be so prolific.

You jest, surely. Anybody can babble in as senseless a fashion as Baba. Not everybody has the balls or the fat ego to, though. But, if you get something out of it, you get something out of it. Don't mean to be crude. Just having my say about it.

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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 15:11:52 (GMT)
From: JB
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Prolific?
Message:
Oh,I really don't think if you saw or read part of all the books out there you'd call it ALL babble anyway. Some is pretty over the top.
But you can honestly say that'The Lover and The Beloved' coming from a man writing on a blackboard is babble?
Could you read it again before you ans. Truly you think that is babble?

And whenever I read words like fat, fuck or any cuss word it's crude. It puts such an angry, sometimes juvenile spin on whatever is said afterwards. Sorry - my own thing. I am a mature person that likes mature intelligent exchanges. If I was at a party w/ a glass in my hand I would discretely and graciously stroll away fr anyone using foul or needless harsh words. Sorry. We are just where we are at. And this is where I am.

Thank you for your post,
JB formerly BJ

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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 22:33:02 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: JB
Subject: Prolific?
Message:
But you can honestly say that'The Lover and The Beloved' coming from a man writing on a blackboard is babble?

Is there some significance to the blackboard? And yes, I think it's babble. Sorry. I've got nothing against finding love and cherishing it, but this guy just drones on and on in a pseudo intellectual manner that doesn't stir me in the slightest. If he does you, fine. I've got nothing against that.

And whenever I read words like fat, fuck or any cuss word it's crude.

If it offends you, I can restrain myself. Sorry. Most people don't seem to mind, so I just let it fly if the spirit moves me to. But I'm really a good, well bred, shy, little, severely beaten catholic boy (by those motherf..ing nuns), who cringes whenever he's reprimanded by the voice of disapproval. Ouch! Won't do it again, at least not in response to your posts.

Welcome to the forum, by the way.

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Date: Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 17:15:48 (GMT)
From: JB
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Prolific?
Message:
Well, aren't you just the sweetest little thing.
My - but first impressions are often wrong.

No nothing imp. about blackboard. And yes, this is probably one of five things he wrote that I thought was logical and relatable.
Like I said before much is just over the top - I suppose one could say droning and psuedo intellectual - yes.

See, we are relating nicely aren't we. :) TY for the welcome.

JB

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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 19:39:12 (GMT)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: JB
Subject: Prolific?
Message:
JB,

Like clanging cymbals,right?

A

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Date: Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 01:08:05 (GMT)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Prolific?
Message:
Uh Oh...Somebody using my handle again...This wasn't me..if you see what I mean.

The usual Anon

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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 03:08:29 (GMT)
From: Helen Lounge Act
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: 'Love...exciting and new
Message:
climb aboard, we're expecting YOU..YEAH!
The Love Boat...la la la la hey hey hey ' (envision Barry WHite singing that to you)

HAPPY VALENTINE'S DAY to the LOVERS (the premies) and ex-es----
Love
Helen

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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 07:06:12 (GMT)
From: Harry
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Are you the lady who shines white light
Message:
STAIRWAY TO HEAVEN Studio Version

There's a lady who's sure
All that glitters is gold
And she's buying a stairway to heaven
When she gets there she knows
If the stores are all closed
With a word she can get what she came for
Ooh-ooh-ooh, ooh ooh ooh ooh-ooh, and she's buying a stairway to heaven

There's a sign on the wall
But she wants to be sure
'Cause you know sometimes words have two meanings
In a tree by the brook
There's a songbird who sings
Sometimes all of our thoughts are misgiven

Ooh, it makes me wonder
Ooh, it makes me wonder

There's a feeling I get
When I look to the west
And my spirit is crying for leaving
In my thoughts I have seen
Rings of smoke through the trees
And the voices of those who stand looking

Ooh, it makes me wonder
Ooh, it really makes me wonder

And it's whispered that soon
If we all call the tune
Then the piper will lead us to reason
And a new day will dawn
For those who stand long
And the forests will echo with laughter

Ohh-ooh ohh-ooh ohh-ooh ohh-ooh ohh hoh

If there's a bustle in your hedgerow
Don't be alarmed now
It's just a spring clean for the May-Queen
Yes, there are two paths you can go by
But in the long run
There's still time to change the road you're on

And it makes me wonder
Ahhh, hoh-hoh

Your head is humming and it won't go
In case you don't know
The piper's calling you to join him
Dear lady, can you hear the wind blow
And did you know
Your stairway lies on the whispering wind

(Guitar Solo)

And as we wind on down the road
Our shadows taller than our soul
There walks a lady we all know
Who shines white light and wants to show
How ev'rything still turns to gold
And if you listen very hard
The tune will come to you at last
When all are one and one is all, yeah-ee-yeah
To be a rock and not to roll

And she's buying a stairway to heaven

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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 12:28:00 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Harry
Subject: Fuck that song
Message:
Sorry, Harry, but I am so tired of the hype surrounding this song. For the past 10 or 15 years this song has been hyped up as the greatest rock and roll song of all time. Not in my book. Doesn't even make my top 100.
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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 20:20:54 (GMT)
From: JB
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: F*** that song
Message:
Ya know I wish I could talk to you - just you and me, bec I feel I'm advising my child in front of others and that's a no-no.

But, did you notice how someone talks about a love song and you're the first one that enters w/ the word 'F***'.
Why exactly is that?

I've been in a lot of therapy and ALL of my friends are licensed therapist or psychiatrists - my sister thinks it's a curse. I know where she's coming from. It makes me probe alittle when people don't want to be probed. I have no right. I don't want to cross boundaries. I can't handle it if just me asking puts you through some deep changes. But I am compelled to ask you.
I am also on a drug for compulsiveness by-the- way.

I'm not perfect tho you might think that I think I am.

Hey, take care
JB

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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 21:43:59 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: heller@bc1.com
To: JB
Subject: Yes, Jerry needs therapy
Message:
I agree, JB. That song is so full of love and shit and this motherfucker has to come and dump his nasty, little personal taste all over it. Like who the fuck does he think he is, anyway?

Jerry, STH is beautiful and you're not. Why don't you print a copy and shove it up your stupid, literal ass and see if the love don't start oozing out of your pores?

You really know how to ruin a nice moment, don't you?

Sorry, JB, I don't think he'll be doing that again anytime soon. Now which was your favorite part again?

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Date: Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 04:04:59 (GMT)
From: JB
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yes, Jerry needs therapy
Message:
That was very funny, I actually laughed out loud and have a big smile on my face.

JB

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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 22:17:31 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yes, Jerry needs therapy, maybe, but..
Message:
fuck that song. At least all the hype surrounding it. Sorry, all you Led Balloon fans, but that's the way I seez it.
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Date: Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 02:34:16 (GMT)
From: HarryBird on the Wire
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: You might like this Cohen one....I do.
Message:
Bird on the Wire

Like a bird on the wire,
like a drunk in a midnight choir
I have tried in my way to be free.
Like a worm on a hook,
like a knight from some old fashioned book
I have saved all my ribbons for thee.
If I, if I have been unkind,
I hope that you can just let it go by.
If I, if I have been untrue
I hope you know it was never to you.
Like a baby, stillborn,
like a beast with his horn
I have torn everyone who reached out for me.
But I swear by this song
and by all that I have done wrong
I will make it all up to thee.
I saw a beggar leaning on his wooden crutch,
he said to me, 'You must not ask for so much.'
And a pretty woman leaning in her darkened door,
she cried to me, 'Hey, why not ask for more?'

Oh like a bird on the wire,
like a drunk in a midnight choir
I have tried in my way to be free.

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Date: Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 03:27:29 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: HarryBird on the Wire
Subject: You might like this Cohen one....I do.
Message:
Dear Harry,
Thanks Harry. I have liked the words to his songs, I want to hear his voice and the music though. :)
There is a movie with that name, Bird on the Wire, with Mel Gibson and Goldy Hawn. Before I spoke to Sir Dave on the phone, he thought I'd sound like Goldy Hawn but I don't, he said. :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 03:29:32 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: I forgot
Message:
Dear Harry,
Forgot to mention that the movie was great, action, sexy and funny.
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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 13:20:49 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Fuck that song
Message:
Dear Jerry,
I don't know if it my favorite, and I heard it was about suicide anyway but I saw them do it at Madison Square Garden and it was pretty excellent! I always caught the best concerts there, never went to one that ended before 1am when friends would go to the same show on other nights and the Garden closed at 10 ALWAYS.
When I saw Sly and the Family Stone, the Garden started flicking the lights off and on around 10 and Sly screamed that if the lights went off they'd play in the dark! Ahhhhhhhhhhh, memories. :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 18:15:19 (GMT)
From: Harry
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Fuck that song
Message:
Hi Robyn, how do you get suicide out of those lyrics? I'm just not deep enough I guess, to catch what's really going on. Then again, I find Leonard Cohen uplifting.
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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 19:27:42 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Harry
Subject: Leonard Cohen
Message:
Someone told me what Stairway to Heaven was about and it wasn't suicide. This came via Roy Harper who is a good friend of Jimmy Page and Robert Plant so it's probably true. My memory's not so good but it may have been about Jimmy Page or Robert Plan's daughter.

Anyway, Cohen - he's been a hero before and all through my premie days. Very uplifting music!

John.

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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 22:21:08 (GMT)
From: Harry
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Leonard Cohen
Message:
John,
in my earlier years, I couldn't listen to Cohen, and used to make jokes about it being music to suicide to. Now I really love to just sit back and let the words wash over me, and they have the opposite effect. It's about feelings hey. I just ordered to Cohen box set.
Harry
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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 19:20:36 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Harry
Subject: Fuck that song
Message:
Dear Harry,
I said, I HEARD it was about suicide, I'm not deep enough either, I only see the surface layer you know! :) I was just remembering the back up band for Sly was Earth Wind and Fire, I really liked them too. I can't remember what drugs we were doing but they were substantial and they filled the stage with that dry ice smoke and then the band came out in this hooded cloaks and had wires on them and they were up in the air, also smoke filled. Christ it was outrageous! :)
When I saw Led Zepplin it was the last concert of thier US tour after not being allowed in the States for drug charges so it was wild, have no recollection of that back up band!
When Jessica was a teenager she was looking through shit on my dresser, why, I can't say, KIDS! but later she told me she found the ticket stub from that concert and started to see me in a different light. :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 22:24:48 (GMT)
From: Harry
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Fuck that song
Message:
>>>>>>>.When Jessica was a teenager she was looking through shit on my dresser, why, I can't say, KIDS! but later she told me she found the ticket stub from that concert and started to see me in a different light. :)<<<<<<

That's funny:) The little of this post 'fuck that song', would make a good title for a book, don't ya think?
Harry

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Date: Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 01:37:33 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Harry
Subject: Fuck that song
Message:
Dear Harry,
Yes! It could be a book about rock and roll groupies! :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 14:31:09 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Fuck that song
Message:
Don't get me wrong, Robyn. I love the lyrics, and when Jimmy Page is on, he's up there with the best of them. I just can't stand the hype.

The only artists I ever saw at the Garden was Alabama. My girlfriend at the time was a country and western fanatic, and she just had to see them. They were pretty good.

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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 18:11:19 (GMT)
From: Harry
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Fuck that song
Message:
Jerry,
fuck the hype, I just like the words.
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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 04:55:21 (GMT)
From: Suzie Bai
Email: None
To: Helen Lounge Act
Subject: My (gag, barf) Song to the Lord of the Universe
Message:
Green Were The Hills
[As sung by Suzie Bai Whitten, which Maharaji requested be performed at his wedding to Durga Ji]

Green were the hills I used to roam
Then I heard your call and I came home
Oh my lord I live within your light
And for me now there is no night
I will always stay right at your side
For I have now become your bride
My whole heart's longing just for one
In loving him I've just begun

Yes, to me you are my all
I'll always listen for your call
I will serve you long throughout my life
Just as though I am your wife
Now my roaming days are through
My life has flowed full into you
In this lane of love are dwelling two
You my lord and my love for you
My whole heart's longing just for one
In loving him I've just begun


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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 19:30:24 (GMT)
From: JB
Email: None
To: Suzie Bai
Subject: Heyis this really you Suzie Bai?
Message:
Hey, is this really Suzie Bai,

You said something to me around 1974 ish that to this day inpires me. You were a very powerful lady. Or am I being naive again and this isn't you.
What were the chords for that song it was so soothing and lovely.

TY,
JB

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Date: Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 08:47:11 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: JB
Subject: To JB re:Suzie Bai
Message:
I doubt very much if it was suziebai. I met her a few months ago and she has long-time left m and his cult.
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Date: Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 04:39:44 (GMT)
From: Candy
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: To JB re:Suzie Bai
Message:
Suzy wouldn't touch this place with a 300 foot pole. Many of her closest friends and confidants are premies and she has way too much respect for them to soil their relationships by contributing to this pile of crap.

Just thought you should get that straight.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 17, 2000 at 16:28:58 (GMT)
From: JB
Email: None
To: Candy
Subject: Oh
Message:
TY, then she hasn't left Maharaji? Not that it's any of my business. But if you see her tell her she has a fan in me.
Her singin,writing and personally.
JB :)
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Date: Fri, Feb 18, 2000 at 09:50:11 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: JB
Subject: To JB
Message:
'TY, then she hasn't left Maharaji? '

She explicitely told me when I saw her recently that she had left m.

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Date: Fri, Feb 18, 2000 at 16:54:16 (GMT)
From: JB
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Oh, again,(nt),ty
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Feb 17, 2000 at 01:50:00 (GMT)
From: If what you say is true
Email: None
To: Candy
Subject: the itseems that Suzy has been infected by
Message:
the disease of social respectability.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 17, 2000 at 06:38:50 (GMT)
From: Candy
Email: None
To: If what you say is true
Subject: the itseems that Suzy has been infected by
Message:
No. It's simply called respect. Not a bad thing to get reacquainted with.
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Date: Fri, Feb 18, 2000 at 05:51:05 (GMT)
From: Respect for what Candy
Email: None
To: Candy
Subject: Please explain
Message:
If you can
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Date: Thurs, Feb 17, 2000 at 01:47:03 (GMT)
From: Seems like you don't mind
Email: None
To: Candy
Subject: participating to 'this load of crap' nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Feb 17, 2000 at 16:31:37 (GMT)
From: JB
Email: None
To: Seems like you don't mind
Subject: participating to 'this load of crap' nt
Message:
NOW, Now. Settle down now.

:)

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Date: Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 21:14:06 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Candy
Subject: Thanks, Candy
Message:
Candy,

That was nicely said. Do you mean that she realizes that m is just another cult leader but doesn't want to disappoint her cult member friends by saying so publically?

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Date: Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 17:24:26 (GMT)
From: JB
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: re:Suzie Bai
Message:
Hey thanks, Jethro. But since it did say gag, barf it still could have been her,right? Just wanted the chords actually. Seems it was some simple thing like G to C to A or something. I mean if I really cared I could figure it out . It was just such a nice song. And her voice could be compared to Sarah McGlaughlin's I thought. Sp. wrong.

Where'd you see her. Be vague if you want. Her health ok. Look good. ??

JB

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Date: Tues, Feb 15, 2000 at 23:00:03 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: JB
Subject: re:Suzie Bai
Message:
She looked fine. We only spoke for about 5 minutes.
I saw her at a mutual friend's wedding/
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Date: Thurs, Feb 17, 2000 at 16:35:16 (GMT)
From: JB
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: re:Suzie Bai - Oh thanks (nt)
Message:
ny
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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 05:51:46 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Suzie Bai
Subject: sorry-posted in wrong place.
Message:
:) It's kind of appropiate for Vlantines, nt.
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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 05:37:41 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Suzie Bai
Subject: 1998 Lord of the Universe
Message:
We oldies may think that sh... like that is part of the past in 'his world', but what follows was published in the booklet Connect, 1998, sold at a very boring event with Mr Lard.

Indian Poem

Master, I bow down at your feet.
Please reveal this Knowledge to me.

For lifetimes I have been fast asleep.
Awaken me with the arrow of your words.-ouch-:)

Incredible darkness lies within me.
Enlighten me with your lamp of widsdom.

Inside of me flows a stream of poison.
purify it with drops of your nectar. -yack- is me again

My ignorance is deep and its current swift.
Ferry me across this river.

Dharamdas begs you dear Master.
Please guide me now and always.

End.

Who said that Mahalard has changed? Devotion is alive and kicking. 1998!

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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 17:28:10 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Ms. Bai, didn't you write
Message:
SB: 'If you call my name' or something like that? It was, in my opinion, a very pretty song. Too bad it was written for someone that didn't deserve it. If you had written that for me, I would have asked you to marry me...... he he he :-)
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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 05:18:32 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Suzie Bai
Subject: yikes!
Message:
Wasn't there a Suzie Bai? (most likely in
every community!) and a real song like that
(ditto) arrrggghhh
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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 04:38:56 (GMT)
From: Ms. K
Email: None
To: Helen Lounge Act
Subject: Happy Valentine's Day, Helen!
Message:
Can't say I'm entranced by your vision of Barry White singing the theme from 'The Love Boat', but whatever turns you on:).

Take care, girl -
Love,
Ms. K

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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 17:48:55 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Ms. K
Subject: Poetry on drugs 4U
Message:
Colleen even gets into the act with the Love Boat theme around here! Help, we've created a goofball, just like us!! :)

Happy Valentine's Day to ya fair Lady of the Flowers
Whose midwestern twang adds an earthy dimension to her beauty
Behold, she of the greenhouse!!
Awaken O slumberous flowers!
Hark! It is the Lady Katie! Come to water you now!

Meow O kitties for thou art beloved by the Lady Katie
But Alas! Barry WHite she loveth not,
He shall starve himself to 300 lbs
Out of misery
For she loveth him not.

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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 19:24:44 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Poetry on drugs 4U
Message:
Dear Helen,
'Help, we've created a goofball, just like us!! :)'
Shit you have me slapping my knee on that one! :) If you guys are goofballs, where can I sign up!!!!
My love to all of your little family,
Robyn now I've got to go, Mickey Heart's Supra Lingua is on and you just can't not belly dance to it! :)
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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 19:12:58 (GMT)
From: Ms. K
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Helen the poet
Message:
LOL *again*, Helen! Especially thinking about Colleen singing the Love Boat theme - ROTFL! (One small correction, though - that's 'mountain' not 'Midwestern'.)

Take care, girl. I really DO have to get up to the greenhouse right now.

Love,
Katie

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Date: Sun, Feb 13, 2000 at 23:54:05 (GMT)
From: CultbusterUK
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Divine Light Mission in the UK
Message:
DLM was removed from the Register of Charities in the UK on 13/11/95 for the reason that the charity ceased to exist.

The charity however continued to hold bank accounts and receive donations long after this date. What happened to the donations?

----------------------------------------------------
THE DIVINE LIGHT MISSION
(This charity was removed from the Register Of Charities on 13/11/1995 )
Registered Number
264682
Subsidiary Number
0
Other Name(s)
n/a
Correspondent Details
A.D.SAUNDERS ESQ.
CHAIRMAN OF TRUSTEES
DIVINE LIGHT MISSION
P O BOX 131
PORTSLADE
EAST SUSSEX
BN4 1HJ
01273 820311
Objects
TO ADVANCE RELIGION IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE PRINCIPLES OF SRI HANS JI
GURU MAHARAJA AND SRI SANTA JI GURU MAHARAH BY PROMOTING THE
KNOWLEDGE THAT GOD IS THE SUPREME CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE: THE
REALISATION OF GOD WITHOUT NOMINATIONAL BIAS; THE RELIEF OF
PREVENTION OF SUFFERING BOTH MENTAL AND PHYSICAL OCCASIONED BY
POVERTY, ILL HEALTH AND THE ABUSE OF DRUGS.
Area Of Benefit
NATIONAL AND OVERSEAS
Registration Date
06/10/1972
Register Removal Date
13/11/1995
Removal Reason
CEASED TO EXIST
Governing Document
TRUST DEED DATED 16TH JUNE 1972
Area(s) Of Operation
NATIONAL & OVERSEAS

County
n/a
Administrative District
n/a
Locality
n/a
Continent
WORLDWIDE
Country
n/a

Subsidiaries

There are no subsidiaries for this charity.

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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 09:57:04 (GMT)
From: Follow the Money.
Email: None
To: CultbusterUK
Subject: Ask Alan
Message:
Hi,

You could drop Alan Saunders a line and ask him where the money went?

This all looks a bit dodgy doesn't it?

Somebody posted a letter last summer, with a request for their standing order to be changed from DLM to Elan Vital. Maybe we can fish out the letter from somewhere and check the date on it.

Follow the Money.

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Date: Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 10:26:07 (GMT)
From: CultbusterUK
Email: None
To: Follow the Money.
Subject: Ask Alan
Message:
Alan and DLM's bankers are being asked. An unsatisfactory answer will result in the Charity Commissioners and possibly Mr. Plod being consulted.
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