Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 23:08:13 (GMT)
From: Feb 21, 2000 To: Mar 05, 2000 Page: 3 Of: 5


JB -:- Been gone awhile -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 18:39:05 (GMT)
__ Not Larkin but..... -:- Been gone awhile -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 03:32:34 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- Been gone awhile -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 19:21:42 (GMT)

Jim -:- Sick? Yes, but still kind of funny (OT) -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 17:57:57 (GMT)
__ Ronnie Biggs -:- I Dunno Jim, it all seems pretty 'armless!(nt) -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 08:01:54 (GMT)
__ __ Ronnie Kray -:- I Dunno Jim, it all seems pretty 'armless!(nt) -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 09:32:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ armless?only when legless -:- Gotta laugh yer head off/or throw your hand in(nt) -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 21:23:38 (GMT)
__ Amari -:- Sounds more like a surf battle than turf :o) (nt) -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 23:25:17 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- Here's more sick -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 23:19:10 (GMT)
__ __ Sean -:- Here's more sick-That's good!(nt) -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 21:16:29 (GMT)
__ Mu -:- Oh you sick puppy! (nt) -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 18:16:56 (GMT)

Angry -:- Cults, Religions-LA de DA!!!! -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 11:28:41 (GMT)
__ Sean -:- Cults, Religions-LA de DA!!!! -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 18:44:43 (GMT)
__ Angry -:- Thanks Everyone(nt) -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 12:36:21 (GMT)
__ Joey -:- Let's look at the effects of the two on people... -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 03:29:47 (GMT)
__ __ Hal -:- Let's look at the effects of the two on people... -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 10:53:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jackie -:- Are you coming over to the recent ex site? -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 01:17:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Hal -:- Are you coming over to the recent ex site? -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 08:10:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Are you coming over to the recent ex site? -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 16:13:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Are you coming over to the recent ex site? -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 12:31:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joey -:- Let's look at the effects of the two on people... -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 13:55:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Joey, time for a chill pill -:- Tues, Feb 29, 2000 at 02:42:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Jim, I WAS pretty chilled under the circumstances. -:- Tues, Feb 29, 2000 at 13:43:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Hal -:- Let's look at the effects of the two on people... -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 17:43:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Let's look at the effects of the two on people... -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 18:39:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Let's look at the effects of the two on people... -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 19:35:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Let's look at the effects of the two on people... -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 23:46:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- joey ,What have you changed into -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 08:03:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- How would you know Hal? -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 13:10:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Maybe the assumptions are 2 way nt -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 13:23:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ You are now -:- an anti-cult fanatic joey...just as unpallatable -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 01:38:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- Hey Hal -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 07:10:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Hey Hal -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 11:20:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Hey Hal -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 13:19:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Bitterness -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 13:40:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Bitterness -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 13:49:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ whoever I am -:- at least I don't need to hide behind.... -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 02:58:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- at least I don't need to hide behind.... -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 08:40:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- You're full of it Hal! -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 13:23:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- You are one nasty piece of work Joey nt -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 13:49:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- And you're a joke Hal! -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 14:02:20 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- Cults, Religions-LA de DA!!!! -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 19:58:32 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Is there 1religion that didn't start out a cult? -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 20:31:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Is there 1religion that didn't start out a cult? -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 21:22:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- John Coltrane? -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 23:34:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- John Coltrane? -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 00:59:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- John Coltrane -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 02:54:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- John Coltrane -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 14:46:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- John Coltrane -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 18:37:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- In A Silent Way?! -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 21:00:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- 'So What' -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 03:10:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Albert Mangelsdorf -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 09:04:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- 'Egg' on whose face? -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 16:51:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- 'Egg' on whose face? -:- Tues, Feb 29, 2000 at 19:52:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- 'Egg' on whose face? -:- Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 06:22:22 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Cults, Religions-LA de DA!!!! -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 17:02:10 (GMT)
__ Mr D -:- Cults, Religions-LA de DA!!!! -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 15:02:21 (GMT)
__ __ michael in Oregon -:- Cults, Religions-LA de DA!!!! -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 17:51:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Cults, Religions-LA de DA!!!! -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 20:07:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Cults, Religions-LA de DA!!!! Dee dum dee dum -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 19:58:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ michael in Oregon -:- Cults, Religions-LA de DA!!!! Dee dum dee dum -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 21:12:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Cults, Religions-LA de DA!!!! Dee dum dee dum -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 23:45:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ michael from Oregon -:- Cults, Religions-LA de DA!!!! Dee dum dee dum -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 03:03:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Cults, Religions-LA de DA!!!! Dee dum dee dum -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 15:57:37 (GMT)

Mr D -:- Name that tune -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 04:17:52 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- Name that tune -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 23:18:06 (GMT)
__ __ Mr D -:- Name that tune -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 02:36:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sean -:- Name that tune -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 18:49:21 (GMT)

Jim -:- And we wonder why premies don't think well -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 01:15:04 (GMT)
__ Sean -:- 'Never trust a junkie' (Ministry) -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 19:00:19 (GMT)
__ __ Fred -:- 'Never trust a junkie' (Ministry) -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 03:01:49 (GMT)

Jim -:- Mir = Url (a/k/a Nil)? -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 00:59:43 (GMT)
__ Joey -:- Mir = Url (a/k/a Nil)? -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 17:10:45 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- But I didn't say that -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 18:02:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ Lucifer Springer -:- Oh !This is a beautiful.Jim and Joey almost civil -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 02:40:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joey -:- But you're NOT, Lucifer -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 14:02:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- Oh !This is a beautiful.Jim and Joey almost civil -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 02:48:04 (GMT)
__ Mir -:- Gimme a break! -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 01:42:19 (GMT)
__ __ Rob the latter -:- Gimme a break! -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 02:42:52 (GMT)

Fran -:- Duped? -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 00:12:48 (GMT)
__ cqg -:- Duped? -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 15:06:31 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Yes, of course -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 00:35:40 (GMT)
__ __ X -:- Yes, of course -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 08:29:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ Xplain yourself -:- or piss off ... -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 00:29:11 (GMT)
__ __ Powerman -:- How many suicides? -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 05:26:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jackie -:- How many suicides? -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 04:41:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ selene -:- one is enough! nt -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 23:08:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sean -:- one is enough! nt -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 19:18:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- one is enough! nt -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 20:46:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Enough -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 16:52:50 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- Duped? -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 00:35:14 (GMT)

Djuro -:- Can you imagine, -:- Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 19:34:24 (GMT)
__ G -:- the light of a candle -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 15:37:03 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- grateful for M's crumbs -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 02:17:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sean -:- grateful for M's crumbs -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 19:30:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Helen -:- grateful for M's crumbs -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 19:59:10 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- Seeing 'red' -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 18:39:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- Seeing 'red' -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 23:34:04 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Excellent point, G -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 18:16:26 (GMT)
__ Amari -:- Can you imagine, -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 01:34:09 (GMT)
__ __ Djuro -:- Can you imagine, -:- Tues, Feb 29, 2000 at 16:55:24 (GMT)
__ hamzen -:- No, and what an odd and shallow concept -:- Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 20:56:14 (GMT)
__ G -:- life is not boring -:- Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 20:08:07 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- Imagine this -:- Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 20:02:16 (GMT)
__ __ Djuro -:- Imagine this -:- Tues, Feb 29, 2000 at 17:00:34 (GMT)

Sir dave -:- That picture and more you may have missed -:- Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 13:58:10 (GMT)
__ cqg -:- The 'thought-bubble' above M's head could read ... -:- Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 20:49:50 (GMT)
__ __ snow white -:- The 'thought-bubble' above M's head could read ... -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 01:16:14 (GMT)
__ SB -:- Way is right: Pictures speak better than thousand -:- Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 16:39:18 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- More pictures of enlightened beings - yes please! -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 17:17:23 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Pictures' galleries are the most visited -:- Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 16:51:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ SB -:- Pictures' galleries are the most visited -:- Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 16:53:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- were you like me at events? -:- Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 17:05:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Djuro -:- were you like me at events? -:- Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 18:33:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- brave or foolish premie? -:- Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 21:51:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ slene -:- though you are transparent -:- Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 18:54:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Djuro -:- though you are transparent -:- Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 19:11:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- you are transparent and naive -:- Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 19:17:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Djuro -:- you are transparent and naive -:- Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 19:21:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Djuro, Get help now ! ntll -:- Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 21:37:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Djuro -:- Djuro, Get help now ! ntll -:- Tues, Feb 29, 2000 at 16:44:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Who told you I bought pictures? -:- Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 19:37:23 (GMT)
__ Way -:- That picture and more you may have missed -:- Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 15:02:46 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- That picture and more you may have missed -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 17:19:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ michael -:- I found this mataji site - good old wierd and -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 22:10:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- the site that startled !!! -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 23:29:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cqg -:- weird?(as in 'dree one's weird'-as in suffer one's -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 19:42:33 (GMT)

Hal -:- Freedom -:- Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 07:18:05 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- It's getting better all the time. -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 10:51:40 (GMT)
__ __ Hal -:- It's getting better all the time. -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 14:04:05 (GMT)
__ Mirror -:- Freedom -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 01:03:51 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Ha, ha ha -- your analogy's upside down, Mir -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 17:08:25 (GMT)
__ __ cqg -:- Freedom -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 15:53:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- Freedom -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 16:21:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cqg -:- So last year's agya = next years bullshit!!!(nt) -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 16:42:44 (GMT)
__ __ Hal -:- Life goes on -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 10:25:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mirror -:- Life goes on -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 06:58:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Hal -:- Life goes on -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 10:36:31 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- why would you want to hang around losers? -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 01:12:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mirror -:- why would you want to hang around losers? -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 01:39:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- why would you want to hang around losers? -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 03:09:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ selene -:- yeah too bad that made no sense -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 01:44:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mirror -:- Pearls before swine! :o) (nt) -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 01:48:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Swine? Thanks a lot! It's not like I weigh -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 23:23:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Swine? Thanks a lot! It's not like I weigh -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 00:04:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- thanks Jerry -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 00:15:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cqg -:- Mirrors get things backwards enough as it is(nt) -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 20:10:42 (GMT)
__ Ben Lurking -:- Freedom -:- Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 18:34:48 (GMT)
__ __ Hal -:- Freedom -:- Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 18:53:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ cqg -:- Freedom train now on platform 1... calling at- -:- Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 20:20:24 (GMT)
__ Jack -:- Freedom -:- Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 14:54:20 (GMT)
__ Fred -:- Freedom -:- Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 14:14:26 (GMT)
__ __ cqg -:- Caterpillar sheds his skin to find ... :) (nt) -:- Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 20:22:06 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- Freedom -:- Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 15:39:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- Freedom -:- Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 17:25:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Helen -:- Freedom -:- Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 18:51:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ selene -:- and how fitting -:- Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 18:57:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- and how fitting -:- Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 20:50:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Djuro -:- Freedom -:- Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 17:37:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ selene -:- Freedom -:- Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 17:49:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Djuro -:- Freedom -:- Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 18:22:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Freedom -:- Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 18:33:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Fran -:- Freedom -:- Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 23:25:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Djuro -:- Freedom -:- Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 18:50:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Anger -:- Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 19:00:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ selene -:- Anger -:- Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 19:51:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jack -:- American Beauty -:- Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 23:56:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- American Beauty -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 00:02:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sean -:- American Beauty -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 19:50:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- American Beauty -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 20:54:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- American Beauty: depressing -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 14:09:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- American Beauty: depressing -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 23:43:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- American Beauty: depressing -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 10:06:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- The Whole Nine Yards -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 15:29:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- American Beauty -- much overrated -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 18:20:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jackie -:- American Beauty -- Great! -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 00:57:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ dj -:- Anger -:- Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 19:13:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Freedom? They carry chains and don't see them -:- Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 18:43:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Djuro -:- Freedom? They carry chains and don't see them -:- Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 18:54:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Do stick around, Djuro -:- Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 19:12:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Maybe CD can teach him how -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 01:19:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ DJ -:- Do stick around, Djuro -:- Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 19:15:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Djuro,aren't you late for your English lesson? nt -:- Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 19:07:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Sorry body, I hope I am not you -:- Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 19:02:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mir -:- Think about it! -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 01:34:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Djuro -:- Sorry body, I hope I am not you -:- Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 19:18:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- A word two or or that does sense make not -:- Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 23:23:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Mirror, mirror -:- Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 21:30:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cqg -:- Gurus are for growing out of ... eventually (nt) -:- Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 20:26:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ selene -:- you read my mind -:- Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 18:40:46 (GMT)


Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 18:39:05 (GMT)
From: JB
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Been gone awhile
Message:
Been gone - and now gotta go.

Here's a neat quote - no secret agendas - just neat.----

'I hate the guys who critisize
and minimise the other guys
who enterprise has made them rise
above the guys who criticise.'

TY

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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 03:32:34 (GMT)
From: Not Larkin but.....
Email: None
To: JB
Subject: Been gone awhile
Message:
I hate the guys that criticise,
and use deceit to make themselves rise,
while holding down the other guys,
and crushing thier impulse to do enterprise,
and binding them by useing lies,
releaseing them only when they die.

In honor of those that died before
they got to breathe free of the fake lord,
to stop the beast that beams from the sky
useing sattelites to spread more lies.

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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 19:21:42 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: JB
Subject: Been gone awhile
Message:
yeah but they have the final word in movies
selections and don't you forget it.
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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 17:57:57 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Sick? Yes, but still kind of funny (OT)
Message:
Found this news item today. I'm not normally one for puns, intentional or otherwise, but this .....

RIO DE JANEIRO, Feb. 22 -- The days have been warm and clear, with refreshing sea breezes, and the aquamarine waters of the South Atlantic continue to sparkle and beckon. But for the 6.5 million residents of this metropolis that likes to call itself the 'wonderful city,' this has become the summer of their discontent.
With millennium festivities kicking off a series of celebrations that include the 500th anniversary of the discovery of Brazil, the weeks leading up to Carnival in early March were supposed to have offered fun and relaxation in a city that loves nothing better than a good time. Instead, one mishap after another, including damaging oil and sewage spills and quarrels over public morality, has turned Rio's prime vacation and tourism season into an ordeal.

'Normally, nobody wants summer to end, but this one seems to have a curse on it,' Luiz Alberto Freitas Alcántara, 23, a university student, said. 'I can hardly wait for Carnival to arrive so that we can put these two months behind us and forget all about them.'

The first sign of trouble was in mid-January, when body parts began washing up on some of the most fashionable beaches, including Ipanema. The grisly discovery of arms, legs and torsos from at least six bodies, some bullet riddled and others chopped, disgusted surfers and sunbathers, leading many to abandon their traditional haunts.

'Imagine taking your little ones to the beach with their pails and shovels, and they find an arm instead of a seashell,' said Ana Carolina Vieira Gomes, 29, mother of three who has traded Ipanema for the more distant Barra da Tijuca beach. 'Things are really getting out of hand.'

The police have not identified any of the remains. But they say the victims were probably involved in a turf battle between drug gangs that are fighting for control of Rocinha and Vidigal, two large favelas, or squatter settlements, on mountainsides that overlook the sea.

(my emphasis, of course)

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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 08:01:54 (GMT)
From: Ronnie Biggs
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I Dunno Jim, it all seems pretty 'armless!(nt)
Message:
I dunno Jim
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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 09:32:49 (GMT)
From: Ronnie Kray
Email: D.O.A
To: Ronnie Biggs
Subject: I Dunno Jim, it all seems pretty 'armless!(nt)
Message:
I dunno Jim , we all went up to the Cantina to get legless....it all seemed so 'armless! Next thing everyone's losin their heads, there's shit everywhere and before you know it we're all washed up!!
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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 21:23:38 (GMT)
From: armless?only when legless
Email: None
To: Ronnie Kray
Subject: Gotta laugh yer head off/or throw your hand in(nt)
Message:
Gotta laugh yer head off/or throw your hand in(nt)
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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 23:25:17 (GMT)
From: Amari
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Sounds more like a surf battle than turf :o) (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 23:19:10 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Here's more sick
Message:
That wasn't Hal's arm that washed up on shore, was it? Was the tumor still on it? Poor guy.
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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 21:16:29 (GMT)
From: Sean
Email: seang2@earthlink.net
To: Jerry
Subject: Here's more sick-That's good!(nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 18:16:56 (GMT)
From: Mu
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Oh you sick puppy! (nt)
Message:
Oh you sick puppy!
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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 11:28:41 (GMT)
From: Angry
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Cults, Religions-LA de DA!!!!
Message:
From what I picked up concerning the U.S. Presidential Primary in South Carolina, it seems that one 'religion' likes to accuse another of being a cult. There is this Christian Fundamentalist guy named Bob Jones who has his own university(like Falwell). He refers to the Catholics and the Mormons as cults.

In my way of thinking, the only difference between a cult and a religion is time in existence. Having been in business for such a long time, the so-called religion may now use a much more subtle marketing approach as they are able to reproduce membership from generation to generation.

Cults and religions all use a better future as the carrot; some even use the here and now as the time to enjoy, but this doesn't seem to manifest for most of the flock.

I'd be interested in others opinions.

Maharaji is a jerk-off!

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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 18:44:43 (GMT)
From: Sean
Email: seang2@earthlink.net
To: Angry
Subject: Cults, Religions-LA de DA!!!!
Message:
Bob Jones U. has been around a long time (he's Bob Jones IV). Some of the biggest fascists in the country went to school there.
Ian Paisley, of Northern Ireland was educated there. The campus is surrounded by barbed wire-pointing inward-and race mixing is strictly forbidden. Yep, they're ALL cults.
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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 12:36:21 (GMT)
From: Angry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Thanks Everyone(nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 03:29:47 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Angry
Subject: Let's look at the effects of the two on people...
Message:
Angry,

I think it might be interesting to look at the difference between cults and religions, not only in terms of how the two recruit and maintain membership, but as to the effect that participation or belonging to a cult or religion has on the members.

There has been research done that has concluded that the effects of mainline religious organisations on their members to be at least less negative and less destructive as compared to certain cults.

I've extracted the following from Steve Hassan's Book 'Combatting Cult Mind Control.' I believe it demonstrates that for all the criticism that cults have been directing in their direction, (remember m just a few years back...'Knowledge is to religion, what the living tree is to petrified wood' ?), mainline, traditional religious organisations afford their members more freedom to truly be themselves than cults do.
Here's the research, according to Steve Hassan.
****************************************

Dr. Flavil Yeakley, a respected psychologist from Abilene Christian University, has done considerable research into the psychological profiles of cult members. Dr. Yeakely has administered the Meyers-Briggs Type Indicator(MBTI), a personality profile research device, to hundreds of members of different religious groups, both mainline and cultic. He asked members to fill out the questionnaire three times. The first time, they were asked to answer the questions from the frame of mind in which they were presently living. The second time, they were asked to answer the questions from the state of mind they were in prior to joining the group. Last, Dr. Yeakely asked his test subjects to respond to the questions as they would answer in five years' time.

He administered this test to members of the Boston Church of Christ, the Church of Scientology, the Hare Krishnas, Maranatha, the Children of God, the Moonies, and the Way International. The results showed a high level of change toward certain standard personality types as defined by the test. In other words, people in certain cults appeared to be all moving towards having the same kinds of personalities, regardless of the original personalities they brought with them into the group.
I see this test result as offering interesting support for my idea that cults actually give new personalities to their members (he refers to it as 'cloning') as they suppress their original identities.
As Dr. Yeakely explained in a letter to me:

'In the Boston Church of Christ and in three of the cults , the shifting was towards the ESFJ (extrovert, sensing, feeling , judging) personality type. Two of the cults were shifting towards ESTJ (extrovert, sensing, thinking judging) and one towards ENTJ (extrovert, intuitive, thinking, judging). There is nothing wrong with any of these three types. The problem is with the pressure to conform to any type. It is the shifting which is negative, not the type toward which the shifting is taking place.'

In comparison, this test was given to members of the Baptist, Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist, and Presbyterian churches and 'mainline' Churches of Christ. There was no significant changes in psychological type scores over time. In other words, there was no indication of any pressure to any certain type of personality. People's fundamental personality types remained intact. (emphasis my own)

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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 10:53:10 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Let's look at the effects of the two on people...
Message:
Dear Joey,

I've noticed that many of the current premies have turned M into a religion already. By that I mean that many of them hardly meditate ever, or if they do say that they find it almost impossible.They go to a video or satellite event occasionally, the way some people go to church, just to keep in touch.

It also seems that there are very few of the old , sacrifice everything for truth, types left. Instead the main support is from a very moderate group of people who seem to enjoy the comfort zone of the belief that M is a good guy and might do them some good somehow , even if they don't follow his precepts very sincerely.

It does seem to be transforming into a religion already.

Hal

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 01:17:29 (GMT)
From: Jackie
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Are you coming over to the recent ex site?
Message:
Dear Hal,

I'm over there and think I might know you. I had nolidge & practiced nolidge even longer than you! Coming from the u.k. I must know some of the same people. Did you know Anthony before the forum? I didn't but know many of the same people/premies that he knows. I would really like to email you especially about Portugal. By the way I don't want to stop meditating but it's so hard to find a group of non-cult meditators. I'm corresponding by email with someone over at recent exes that feels the same way.

Love to you and your family,

Also to the village of many premies,

Love,

Jackie

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 08:10:56 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Jackie
Subject: Are you coming over to the recent ex site?
Message:
Dear Jackie,

I will I think come over to the recent ex site and communicate

more with you . Love Hal.

I'm thinking maybe I irritate most people here with my lack of venom.

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 16:13:15 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Are you coming over to the recent ex site?
Message:
Hal you haven't irritated me much.
I think you have been honest about your feelings.
You have shown anger. Anger doesn't have to
equate to venomous attacks.
(I can hear it now 'that's funny coming from
her' but so what?).
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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 12:31:07 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Are you coming over to the recent ex site?
Message:
Hal,

Hey don't think like that! The vast majority of posters here do not like aggressive posts, but of course I'm sure your contributions on RE will be just as welcome as they are here:-)

I would just like to express my personal appreciation for your contributions here.

Thanks,

John.

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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 13:55:03 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Let's look at the effects of the two on people...
Message:
It also seems that there are very few of the old , sacrifice everything for truth, types left. Instead the main support is from a very moderate group of people who seem to enjoy the comfort zone of the belief that M is a good guy and might do them some good somehow , even if they don't follow his precepts very sincerely.

Sorry Hal, but my observations of these 'moderate' people as you refer to them, interacting with m is that they're NOT moderate at all.
I DON'T see idolatry as a trait that belongs to those who are 'moderate'. And when it comes to his core supporters you are IMO mistaken when you say that they see m 'as a good guy' who 'might do them some good somehow.'
They see him STILL as God Incarnate. As an idol.
And that's what the cult still is....a cult of idol worshippers.
Now these core supporters will deny it of course, just like you're doing now, buy hey...it's that denial that makes it even more of a cult.

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Date: Tues, Feb 29, 2000 at 02:42:19 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Joey, time for a chill pill
Message:
Joey,

It's preposterous, this thing that you're doing with Hal. Really! Fair minds could easily disagree about whether or not EV currently drains more or less blood from its prey than your average religion. Hey, it's an interesting topic to mull over between friends. Your nastiness here is completely rash and uncalled for.

Besides, your reasoning seems a bit sketchy in any event. By saying:

They see him STILL as God Incarnate. As an idol.
And that's what the cult still is....a cult of idol worshippers.
Now these core supporters will deny it of course, just like you're doing now, buy hey...it's that denial that makes it even more of a cult.

you're apparently implying that Hal's position is the same one premies would take, thus he's still thinking like one. But Joey, just because person A might come down on the same side of an issue as person B, it doesn't mean that A supports B or anything of the sort.

As for the actual issue, I think the problem comes from trying to distinguish cults from religions. They're all based on people tricking others into thinking they've got some spiritual knowledge or power to offer. That's it. Full stop, as far as I'm concerned. Thus there's no need to try to figure out why my premie friends, who meditate a bit, see the odd video and might go see the hamster once every couple of years, are in a cult while any of my christian colleagues who pray to Christ daily, go to weekly meetings and tithe regularly, are only in a religion.

But, like I say, fair minds can disagree about this.

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Date: Tues, Feb 29, 2000 at 13:43:01 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, I WAS pretty chilled under the circumstances.
Message:
It's preposterous, this thing that you're doing with Hal.

What I find preposterous is that you see this exchange in these terms, while I can't help but looking at it in terms of what he was doing to me.

You wrote:

Fair minds could easily disagree about whether or not EV currently drains more or less blood from its prey than your average religion. Hey, it's an interesting topic to mull over between friends. Your nastiness here is completely rash and uncalled for.

And obviously we DID disagree. It was our right to disagree. But where nastiness was introduced in the discussion was where I made the statement you refer to in your post.

They see him STILL as God Incarnate. As an idol.
And that's what the cult still is....a cult of idol worshippers.
Now these core supporters will deny it of course, just like you're doing now, buy hey...it's that denial that makes it even more of a cult.

Now there's nothing in the above statement that smacks of religious intolerance or bigotry, and yet in his reponse, this how Hal chose to characterize my views. THAT IMO is NASTY. And that is not the way to have a discussion amongst 'friends'.

I see no reason to take it lightly if anyone here equates my anger at the cult as a sign of intolerance or bigotry, and I WON'T.

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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 17:43:14 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Let's look at the effects of the two on people...
Message:
Isn't it true that many religions worship idols?

Either dead masters, Black rocks, crucifixes , holy books and ancient manuscripts etc.

When I talk about the premies, I'm talking from my own experience of people who are close friends of mine and who I know extremely well. They are very moderate people, definitely not fanatics.

That doesn't mean that I support what they're doing or object to it. I don't particularly like this ' our religion's better than yours' perspective that members of all religions and cults have.

They all think they're right, that the others are all off the wall. Only the very balanced can see that some paths are good for some people and perhaps other paths suit different people.

Your perspective seems to have some religious intolerance towards others. The cause of the current problems between Christians and Muslems in several parts of the world is caused by this bigotry. People being hacked to death with machetes is in my opinion much worse than a few sweet deluded people thinking they are following an authentic spiritual master.

Human beings make errors and mistakes. Judge not lest ye be judged. Hal

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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 18:39:15 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Let's look at the effects of the two on people...
Message:
When I talk about the premies, I'm talking from my own experience of people who are close friends of mine and who I know extremely well. They are very moderate people, definitely not fanatics.

I've known premies too Hal, but unlike yourself I haven't found them to be 'moderate' in terms of their relationship to m. For the most part they view him in a 'God Incarnate' context, or as an object of idol worship.
Now even if I were accept the suggestion in your post that all religions are based on some form idol worship (which I don't), I certainly can't accept the notion that a fraud like m should be allowed to manipulate and deceive people as he has so that he can satisfy his his insatiable appetite for the love, devotion, and last but not least , the money of his followers. Its fraudulent Hal, plain and simple. Not that there aren't conditions under which I could forsee myself saying ok to the idea of m being given an opportunity to continue on as a meditation teacher or whatever, but, he's so far off the mark in terms of accountability and a genuine desire to own up to the destructive effect of his cult especially in the West... it's almost a joke to think of m ever coming clean.

Its also interesting that you choose to characterize my perspective as one of 'intolerance'.

I'd like you to know that my perspective is based on a 26 year involvement with m's cult. Over that period of time, I've seen far more people leave than stay. I know far too many who would classify their time spent in the cult as definitely destructive (although in varying degrees) or in the least, a waste of time.
So, my intolerance as you choose to call it is about THAT. It's NOT the kind of intolerance that you describe as the cause of, (and quite frankly I can't figure out if its more offensive or ridiculous of you to EVEN suggest the following)

the current problems between Christians and Muslems in several parts of the world is caused by this bigotry.

Furthermore, you really don't give m much of a moral leg to stand on when you come up with the following.

People being hacked to death with machetes is in my opinion much worse than a few sweet deluded people thinking they are following an authentic spiritual master.

Seeking to somehow legitimize m's cult by contrasting it to some far greater destructiveness...well sorry to say Hal, but it just doesn't cut it.

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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 19:35:38 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Let's look at the effects of the two on people...
Message:
Dear Joey,

I'm not trying to give M a moral leg to stand on. I am just reacting to your sweeping generalisations about premies.

I did at one time see M as the Lord on earth but I in recent years modified that to seeing him as a master who was enlightened. Not necessarily the only one, but the only one I had encountered personally.

I was a premie for 28 years and as you know perhaps ,I am still in the process of breaking free.I don't have a strong feeling that M is any more evil than many other people, worse than some, better than others.
Certainly I will defend myself and premies against this general sweeping statement because I know my own thoughts and I've had conversations with my friends to see how they view things. I stress, not all premies are fanatics.

I don't think cults are the way , neither do I think any divisive religion the way either. In fact I wouldn't be sorry to see the whole lot of them fade and die.I certainly don't want to leave M and adopt a whole new set of exclusive concepts about Truth. Hal

p.s. please remind or inform me of a religion that doesn't idolise either a book or some dead master as being sacred.

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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 23:46:47 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Let's look at the effects of the two on people...
Message:
Dear Joey,

I'm not trying to give M a moral leg to stand on. I am just reacting to your sweeping generalisations about premies.

Hal, first of all, I'm really not all that sure how appropriate it is for you to call me 'dear' after you've accused me of intolerance and bigotry in YOUR own sweeping generalization of my views which pertain to the subject matter at hand.

Secondly, you ARE trying to provide some kind of legitamization for m and the cult...you're simply denying it again.

Hal, many fringe premies have already left the cult especially in the last few years. What's left are your core premies who have m and the cult deeply ingrained in them. I'm glad you know your own thoughts Hal, I certainly know my own, and I know what I've experienced and seen during the course of my involvement in m's cult. And again, based on my experience, there is nothing moderate about being a core member of a destructive cult such as m's.

Finally you wrote:

I certainly don't want to leave M and adopt a whole new set of exclusive concepts about Truth.

Don't worry about a thing Hal, he's still very much with you.
And so is his ability to deceive.


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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 08:03:42 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: joey ,What have you changed into
Message:
A fanatical uptight ex premie from a fanatical uptight premie. Where has that got you.Is that freedom?
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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 13:10:01 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: How would you know Hal?
Message:
Hal,

More name calling Hal? So far all I've said is that you've expressed considerable denial and deceipt in your posts.

Its one thing for you to say that I'm a 'fanatical ex-premie', but how do you know what I was like as a premie?

More assumptions on your part, perhaps?

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 13:23:48 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Maybe the assumptions are 2 way nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 01:38:19 (GMT)
From: You are now
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: an anti-cult fanatic joey...just as unpallatable
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 07:10:55 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: You are now
Subject: Hey Hal
Message:
Hal,
It was awfully tempting to write:
'Let's looks at the effects on these two people.'

Every ex here is still effected by what happened to them. I'm not big on AA, but I like the idea that they refer to themselves as 'recovering alchoholics' rather than ex-alchoholics. We've taken to the term 'ex' but the idea still applies.

Take care.

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 11:20:03 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Hey Hal
Message:
It's true that I am a recovering premie but it doesn't mean that I have to feel the same way about it as anyone else or be indoctrinated into or blinded by bitterness.
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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 13:19:00 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Hey Hal
Message:
Hate to butt in on your conversation with Run, but here you go again with still more sweeping generalizations, characterizing my perspective as being 'blinded by bitterness'.

At least for some of us breaking free ...it's been our anger that's helped us see m and the cult for what it is.

My anger at the cult is legitimate Hal!

What's not legitimate is for you to characterize it any other way.

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 13:40:27 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Bitterness
Message:
I didn't deny anyone the right to feel bitterness. I understand why they should. What I wanted to express is that after the excellent advice I've received on thinking for myself, that's what I intend to do . I refuse to be indoctrinated into thinking about all of this from other's experience and perspective.

Although people's experiences with M have similarities, they also were different and individual.For example, those people who deny that they had any experience in meditation try to tell those who did have that they didn't. They can only know for sure that they didn't. No way can anyone know anyone elses experience.

I apologise to you for my assumptions about you. Of course I only perceive something of you from your posts. You also could accept that you only know part of me too. You by the way have made big assumptions calling me deceitful in my posts.Etc

I can't prove to anyone that I love my children but I know that I do.

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 13:49:17 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Bitterness
Message:
I apologise to you for my assumptions about you. Of course I only perceive something of you from your posts.

Well I'm reacting to you on the basis of YOUR posts. And thanks for the perfect premie comment, as follows.

I can't prove to anyone that I love my children but I know that I do

Very touching Hal.

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 02:58:08 (GMT)
From: whoever I am
Email: None
To: You are now
Subject: at least I don't need to hide behind....
Message:
...some bullshit anonymous label.

Nor do I have to buy into the dribble suggested by Hal, that core members of an idol worshipping cult are in fact 'not fanatical'.

Have a nice life,

Joey

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 08:40:33 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: whoever I am
Subject: at least I don't need to hide behind....
Message:
Noone's asking you to buy into their opinions Joey. You seem to want me to buy into yours though.

You have the right to free expression as do all of us.

By the way I am not posting as Whoever, I'll stick to Hal.

P.s Ther are good reasons why people want to remain anonymous. One being that there are lots of fanatics out there on both sides. They can be threatening and dangerous.

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 13:23:51 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: You're full of it Hal!
Message:
P.s Ther are good reasons why people want to remain anonymous. One being that there are lots of fanatics out there on both sides. They can be threatening and dangerous.

But you're full of shit!

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 13:49:04 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: You are one nasty piece of work Joey nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 14:02:20 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: And you're a joke Hal!
Message:
You call me bitter, venomous, intolerant, bigotted, and now you're saying that I'm a 'nasty piece of work'.

Tsk, tsk, tsk.

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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 19:58:32 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Angry
Subject: Cults, Religions-LA de DA!!!!
Message:
Angry:

Re: In my way of thinking, the only difference between a cult and a religion is time in existence.

The reason that a religion outlasts a cult is not completely incidental. Most sociologists believe the longevity of a religious system has to do with how appropriate it's 'answers' are to the major social questions of it's day. Another thing that distinguishes a cult from a religion, beyond size and longevity, is the fact that in a mature religion almost as many people are leaving by the back door at any given time as are coming in through the front door. In general this freedom of movement is less true of cults, unless they are dying out.

Another issue has to do with the fact that not all religions or cults are non-secular. Marxism very definitely qualifies, even though it has no belief system that includes the supernatural. Finally, I'm sure the Torries under King George would have been willing to designate all of those troublesome 'whigs,' including those revolutionaries in the American colonies, as belonging to a cult. Some of them, including the philosophers of the Scottish Enlightenment, were even religious.

Therefore, if you use the term 'cult' as part of an analysis it would behoove you to define what you mean by it. If it's an all inclusive definition then it's probably useless.

I had a cousin named 'Bob Jones' who used to seek attention from girls by eating disgusting objects and attempting to physically injure himself before a crowd. You don't suppose it's the same guy?

--Scott

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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 20:31:51 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Is there 1religion that didn't start out a cult?
Message:
And can you name one cult that didn't get accepted as a religion after, say, a hundred years?
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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 21:22:22 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Is there 1religion that didn't start out a cult?
Message:
Jim:

Believe it or not there are still followers of Madame Blavatsky. I'm anxious to see the status of the John Coltrane religion in another 80 years. (I may be around as a result of therapeutic cloning and other miracles of modern science.) Even if there were no exceptions to the longevity rule that doesn't mean that it's an ideal theoretical definition, especially if you intend to predict whether a particular cult will become a religion.

Oh yeah, as regards non-secular religions, I forget about the stoics, who can be linked to modern skeptics. You see a lot of the stoic philosophy on this forum, so in a way it has gone past the point of religion to become a part of the social context itself.

Personnaly I see this as the fate of all 'successful' religions. They can no longer even be identified as a belief system, since they become integral to how we define ourselves as persons within a society. Too complicated. Just a theory, anyway.

The concept of liberalism is quite interesting. Since we have all become liberals... since liberalism is *the* social context of modern civilazation, we somehow came up with a division *within* liberalism, into 'liberals' and 'conservatives.' The conservatives are classical liberals, while the liberals are progressive liberals. Meanwhile no one notices that a political ideology that's been part of the scene for thousands of years, namely classical conservatism (the divine right of kings and nobles, etc.), has disappeared completely, or found refuge only in cults. Well, I think we now refer to it specifically as 'confusion.'

So, if there's any truth in these observations then a religion is simply a set of identifiable beliefs that has not become sufficiently contextual to have disappeared from view, or from our ability to see them objectively. This doesn't rule out the possibility that we might re-awaken to an awareness of some of our contextual beliefs, and subject them to further scrutiny. After all, we have no assurance that simply because we've swallowed something whole it doesn't contain a concealed hook.

The other side of it is that the person who doesn't believe in anything beyond what can be proved is either hiding something or is without convictions.

--Scott

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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 23:34:52 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: John Coltrane?
Message:
I'm anxious to see the status of the John Coltrane religion in another 80 years.

Coltrane is idolized primarilly because of his emphasis on scale improvisations, which sets well with both jazz and rock musicians. But, I wouldn't exactly call him the founder of a religion. He's just an inspiration to anyone who wants to pursue freedom of expression in their art form.

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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 00:59:05 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: John Coltrane?
Message:
Jerry:

Sad to say, there is actually a religion that believes John Coltrane was the second coming. They take themselves quite seriously. When I was interviewing for a job in Santa Monica a couple of years ago their posters were all over the place. I think his daughter is actually a priestess in the cult. Only in California!

--Scott

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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 02:54:11 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: John Coltrane
Message:
The semantics of this are pretty interesting.

The 'cult' of John Coltrane existed before the cultist church that has sprung up on the West Coast (like the 'cult' of Salvadore Dali- an obsession with his person). Coltrane was admired for many reasons, all of them related to his music. His use of spiritual titles on his peices ('A Love Supreme' or 'Affirmation') steered people toward the associations he wanted made with his own music-making.

More cultism in jazz traces to a band leader named Sun Ra, who claimed connections with space intelligences (and whom Coltrane apprenticed with).

If a personality cult exists where interest is generated by charisma (or fascination for some individual's work) it's mostly problematic only if there is a breech of trust. You know, when the person you follow thinks your face is the floor or that you are fodder for his financial growth.

Coltrane is underrated. But, dunno what these church dudes are up to.

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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 14:46:27 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: John Coltrane
Message:
Run:

You might be right, but I seem to recall a documentary that found a quasi-religious cult while Coltrane was still alive. Not merely personality worship, but equating him with Jesus Christ... that sort of thing. I'm not entirely sure that he wasn't party to it. Sort of sad.

--Scott

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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 18:37:31 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: djrayovac@aol.com
To: Scott T.
Subject: John Coltrane
Message:
A lot of musicians 'worshipped' him, but that's about it. _All That Jazz_ (ed. Atkins) says the church was posthumuous. He was Christian as I recall, and on a real humility trip, so I really kinda doubt it.

Really has a lot more depth than Miles who most people are a lot more familiar with.

Sun Ra is more the kind of thing that you're talking about, althoug he has a lot more interest than a 'cult' as we discuss it here.

Hey Scott, drop me a line if you want.

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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 21:00:59 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: In A Silent Way?!
Message:
Sorry Run, couldn't agree with you about Miles, different chakras maybe but neither less than the other, just different deeps.
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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 03:10:27 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: 'So What'
Message:
Miles ended up writing dance music toward the end of his life, with a funky electric rhythm section. Some people credit him with creating fusion on the 'Bitches Brew' album. My favorite Miles albums are late 50's 'So What' and 'Sketches of Spain' but it's hard to argue that Coltrane wasn't the next wave.

Most people (who do prefer Miles to Coltrane) probably think of 'Favorite Things' as his best, but I don't think Trane really got going until 'A Love Supreme'. The problem with late Coltrane is it's consider too bizarre- too esoteric. After 'A Love Supreme' (which is out but still accessible to a Miles fan), his albums became increasingly avant-garde.

The keyboard style developed under Trane (by McCoy Tyner) completely changed jazz keyboards forever. Corea, Hancock and whomever wouldn't be doing what they did w/o Trane.

I'm going to guess that you never heard Sun Ra, Ham.

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 09:04:20 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Albert Mangelsdorf
Message:
Although A Love Supreme was my favourite lp of his for a while, I much prefer Ascension. I was really into free jazz but I never did get to see Sun Ra, shame.

Thank whoever for Soft Machine & Bitches Brew, got me to trawl the jazz do, from hard bop to ECM, not THAT keen on anything pre-be-bop

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 16:51:46 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: 'Egg' on whose face?
Message:
A Soft Machine fan? I actually saw them tour w/Hendrix and then later in their more jazzed out version numerous times. I was a Soft Machine cultist!!!!!!!!!

But years later I heard Egg and all those Euro-bands. Caravan was a spinoff from SM, I think, and there were tons of avant-rockers in the 80's (still circling from the 70's no doubt), like Nurse w/Wound, making bizarre sounds through the nite on college radio.

You missed Ra, it is a shame...

Have you listened to Cecil Taylor?

How did a nice jazz-rocker like you get so involved in the house music scene? Do you dj?

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Date: Tues, Feb 29, 2000 at 19:52:38 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: 'Egg' on whose face?
Message:
I loved SM 69-71, especially Robert Wyatt's drumming. That whole period for me was intensely bound to acid, bigtime. There were always certain tracks that used to give me the shivers, when I check them out they all had break-beats with a rolling fat bass, one of the two reasons I got into house. The other was the Orb, Orbital, Dreadzone, Nexus 23 - (minimalism a la Steve Reich, one of my faves but more rooted in the body), but the main reason I got into house was someone gave me a tape of the above plus some Sheffield bleep stuff, and I immediately got acid flashbacks, off like a rocket.
Also anyone who's into that euro jazz stuff, whether free jazz or the fusion stuff would love drum & bass circa 94-7.

Have you listened to Cecil Taylor?
Was into him & Albert Ayler, really pretty much trawled the free scene although more into the european side.
George Russell, Surman, Mangelsdorff, Brotzmann......

Yeah do dj, although only house stuff although not much recently, mind you I've only got one deck at the moment. Ambient through to d&b, not so keen on 4/4 house, although quite like some minimal techno.
You into Patrick Forge/Gilles Peterson?

Musicvally I've pretty much trawled the whole planet although quite superficially in some areas, at the moment want to get some Algerian rai with hip-hop beats, & some French hip-hop, got any suggestions where in London?

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Date: Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 06:22:22 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: djrayovac@aol.com
To: hamzen
Subject: 'Egg' on whose face?
Message:
You hit the nail on the head a few times.

Yeah, love those SM 2 & 3. Love 'em!! Wyatt was God (but Rattledge too).

Cecil Taylor and Ayler exactly: the dudes. Taylor makes Keith Jarrett look like an amateur, and it ain't that easy.

I'm not as up on the Euro-scene as I could be, and I'm only slightly up on the house music phenomena.

Drop me a line. People are going to think we are premie plants takling in code. Believe me, it's not our fault that Ayler was greater than God. Right?

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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 17:02:10 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Angry
Subject: Cults, Religions-LA de DA!!!!
Message:
You're completely right. All religions are cults grown old. All cults, if they survive long enough, start being considered 'religions'. In truth, they all come from the same stock; cults are just younger.
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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 15:02:21 (GMT)
From: Mr D
Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk
To: Angry
Subject: Cults, Religions-LA de DA!!!!
Message:
That's a good analysis but there's some incongueties. The Hare Krishnas and the Moonies have gone through two generations in our lifetime. I think we generally label a cult as being of a smaller size than a religion and with unorthodox beliefs.

Also, I think a cult has a hard-core group of beneficiaries who gain from the power more so than in a larger religion.

I think all humans group themselves into what could be described as 'tribes'. Usually, tribes are not cults because there is no outrageous and unfair wielding of power within them. All businesses are tribes and most families too. Ex-premies is a tribe while Elan Vital would definitely be described as a cult.

There are subsets within the tribes of course, just as there are subsets within the cults. On this page alone, there are several sub-groups within the ex-premie tribe.

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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 17:51:17 (GMT)
From: michael in Oregon
Email: None
To: Mr D
Subject: Cults, Religions-LA de DA!!!!
Message:
Cult, religion, tribe whatever. They are all the same to me. Somebody has it all figured out and is telling others how to do it. They want to tell others how to live life, find god, the meaning of it all - or whatever.

It is all bullshit to me anymore. I no longer believe in any system, religion, cult, tribe, politics or philosophy. They are at best just somebody's attempt to explain the mystery of life and at worst power trips to control other people.

Why the control? Maybe, just maybe if enough people group together to believe the same point of view, then those people find some comfort in mutual reassurance. I think that many people find some comfort in thier beliefs. Doing so gives meaning to thier lives. However, the longevity of a belief system is not enough for me to accept it or make it true.

I do not think that life has any meaning in terms of religion - none at all. :-) Life is it's own meaning. Every moment is filled simultaneously with incredible, joy, pain, beauty, ugliness, fear, understanding and so on, and so on and so on. We all choose either in a concious or unconsious way how we experience each moment. Sometimes the moment chooses for us, or at least seems to.

I try to do what works. And that is for the moment to moment of my life. I enjoy performing random acts of kindness and beauty. I prefer non-violence. Gentle considerate people are fun to be around. But, sometimes, nothing beats a good adrenaline rush. :-)

I do not believe in a supreme being, messiahs, satguru's or any of that enlightenment and divinity claptrap.

What I do believe in is conciousness - but it is a provisional belief, not to be taken too seriously.

There is an interesting saying in buddhism. It is a response to the question, what is buddha? The saying is 'this mind is buddha'. I ran across this on the internet a few months ago. The commentary that accompanied the saying was also very interesting - enlightening, if you will.:-) The commentary was from some past zen teacher. It was to the effect that people who took the saying 'this mind is buddha' too seriously committed the sin of formality. The commentary continued with the viewpoint that if one really understands 'this mind is buddha' they will run away and they will wash out thier mouths for three days every time they even say the word buddha! :-) TFF (too fucking funny)

Remember, in heaven they say there is no beer. That is why we drink it here! Or was that in heaven there is no fear. That is why we go to scary movies!

Laugh when you're happy
Cry when you're sad
Don't get too serious
Or, you may go mad!

Peace - St. Michael the delighted if not somewhat demented ;-)

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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 20:07:10 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: michael in Oregon
Subject: Cults, Religions-LA de DA!!!!
Message:
Michael:

Re: It is all bullshit to me anymore. I no longer believe in any system, religion, cult, tribe, politics or philosophy.... What I do believe in is conciousness - but it is a provisional belief, not to be taken too seriously.

So, if you don't believe in anything much then where do your convictions come from? I think you're 'having us on' as the brits say.

--Scott

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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 19:58:47 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk
To: michael in Oregon
Subject: Cults, Religions-LA de DA!!!! Dee dum dee dum
Message:
Who was Budda? Just another man who had his own theories and decided to try to teach these theories to people. He seems to have made an awful lot of complications out of his theories.

I guess we just know our own experience as valid. There's no need for Buddas and the like to fill our heads with stuff. I would like to take the word 'meditation' out of the Eastern, mystical arena and put it into the 'therapy' arena where I think it rightfully belongs.

I do meditate myself when the spirit moves me and I feel like it. And yet I'd prefer not to call it meditation since I rarely do it sitting up and usually do it lying down in bed, relaxing and getting into my breath. Sometimes for ten minutes and sometimes for an hour or so.

But this has got nothing to do with God, religion, mysticism, Buddism, Hinduism. chakres, guilt, cults, Maharaji or Jesus and yet has got a lot to do with relaxation therapy, which I know it is.

Relaxation therapy is all it is. It's amazing how some people have turned what for me is a personal relaxation technique, into this vast and complicated philosophy. I see that now for what it is - so much crap.

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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 21:12:47 (GMT)
From: michael in Oregon
Email: None
To: Sir Dave and Scott T.
Subject: Cults, Religions-LA de DA!!!! Dee dum dee dum
Message:
No, Scott, I am not 'having you on' as the ever so delightful Brits would say. I said that I do not believe in religion(s). I have been a baptist, a mennonite, a catholic and a premie. All, belief systems that are propounded somewhat on faith. Especially faith in and a firm belief in a messiah or saviour that one must follow blindly and utterly. Even buddhism has fallen into this category.

I have studied many of the religions of this planet. At the very root of most of them is a similar basis - a statement of oneness of being and a universality of existence and a connectedness of all things and a statement that god is love. Overlaying these fundamental ideals is usually a thick layer of claptrap, ritual, and control. At the least this layer is inocuous. At the worst this layer poisons people, one against the other.

This layer of claptrap can make it very difficult to glean any useful nuggets out of religions.

I did say that I believe in conciousness.
But only provisionally:-) NO, I do not know what conciousness is. I do not Care what conciousness is. I do not care if it is merely a byproduct of brain chemistry. I do not care if it is some mysterious aspect of god. What indeed does it matter?

Is the sky blue because of the properties of light refraction? Or, do the properties of light refraction exist because of color? Perhaps god exists because I can concieve of god - perhaps I exist because god can concieve of me. ;-) (having you on a bit)

All arguments are circular.

Like you, Sir Dave, I meditate. Sometimes sitting in a crosslegged position, sometimes standing, sometimes lying down, sometimes awake, sometimes asleep. And, like you I do it to relax. I do Not practice knowledge, excuse me I mean claptrap! I usually just focus on my breath, relax and let things happen.

And like you: 'But this has got nothing to do with God, religion, mysticism, Buddism, Hinduism. chakres, guilt, cults, Maharaji or Jesus and yet has got a lot to do with relaxation therapy, which I know it is.'
********************

I said that I believe that life is its own meaning. I am more and more just seeing this life as an adventure! :-)

Of late this has been my experience: I am more and more aware that I am aware. The I that I am is just a point of conciousness. As I experience the pains and pleasures of life - I observe them from this viewpoint. Maybe I'm a nutcase, but I feel fine.

Well, down with isms, and up with love! Find a path with heart and follow it - or not ;-)

Peace - Michael - Patron saint of live and let live ;-)

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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 23:45:40 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: michael in Oregon
Subject: Cults, Religions-LA de DA!!!! Dee dum dee dum
Message:
I have studied many of the religions of this planet. At the very root of most of them is a similar basis - a statement of oneness of being and a universality of existence and connectedness of all things and a statement that god is love.

More importantly, they all have an authoritarian figure at their center, some man-god who's authority is beyond question. Avoid them like the plague is my advice. If you believe in your freedom to think for yourself, screw religion AND cults. Who cares what their differences are. They both have an authoritarian figure as their centerpiece. And it's because those figures are so authoritarian, so too have their philosophies become, all of which are highly questionable.

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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 03:03:37 (GMT)
From: michael from Oregon
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Cults, Religions-LA de DA!!!! Dee dum dee dum
Message:
So true. Surrounding the authority is a willing covey of sycophants - a priesthood if you will - hell even if you won't! I remember premies saying things like 'mahraji says' and 'maharaji wants us to' and 'maharaji told me' and 'you have to because maharaji....' and so on and so on - and they never ever even talked to m!

Christians are all too willing to proclaim that thier interpretation is the only way. 'God said it, it's in the bible, and I believe it, so it must be true!'

Buddhists can get trapped in austerity and formality. If you prostrate yourself 300,000 times you are worthy to become an initiate!

And - Allah Allah Ahkbar! There is no god but god and you must pray at least five times a day facing mecca!

I was talking to my brother this morning. We were discussing the concept of freedon from religion. I was discussing the same thing with another friend this afternoon. Now on this forum! God is good! Hyuck hyuck! Har de Har!

Well - Peace to us all!

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 15:57:37 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: michael from Oregon
Subject: Cults, Religions-LA de DA!!!! Dee dum dee dum
Message:
Michael:

Re: More importantly, they all have an authoritarian figure at their center, some man-god who's authority is beyond question.

Well, the electoral system has been eaking it's way into religion at a very slow pace. Don't think the Quakers, especially the 'Society of Friends' branch, has ever been an authoritarian organization, though they happen to believe in a messianic figure. Most of your criticism of religion can be found in Karl Marx's anti-religion tracts, which didn't keep him from starting a little religion of his own. The fact that nearly all modern religions are messianic says more about humans than God. Personally I think it's like a quiz show. You get presented with a series of multiple choice questions when you die, which if you answer correctly get you into heaven. You'll have a choice between one secular and one religious category. I'm going to take Political Science.


--Scott

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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 04:17:52 (GMT)
From: Mr D
Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: Name that tune
Message:
You know the feeling; you hear a tune and it sounds very familiar and then you suddenly remember where you heard it before and what it's called, even though this other version has different words to it.

Well, click here to go to a familiar sound and see if you can remember where and when you heard it before. Ah, it's a small world!

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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 23:18:06 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Mr D
Subject: Name that tune
Message:
i saw some weird movie on one of those Sat. TV matinee B movie shows. Can't remember the name but it was set in India and they had an Arti scene. Someone swinging the arti tray and all.
He didn't invent much of anything new, but he made a lot of money. sort of like Bill Gates and Windows?
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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 02:36:14 (GMT)
From: Mr D
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Name that tune
Message:
Don't get me started on Bill Gates. He bought a crap operating system from someone for what, $40,000 or something and then when he'd rigged it to become the industry standard for home computers and people started to realise what crap it was, he copied AppleMac's system and called it Windoze.

We naive people in the West didn't realise that Maharaji's just one of many Indian self proclaimed gods. I think he's done a diservice to the ethnic Indian community. Here in England, there's large Hindu Indian communities and they're nothing like anything Maharaji manifested.

They are friendly, open people and enjoy colourful Indian festivals and parties where everybody eats too much tasty Indian food, listens to and plays great Indian music and dances the night away. A million miles away from Maharaji's heavy scene.

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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 18:49:21 (GMT)
From: Sean
Email: seang2@earthlink.net
To: Mr D
Subject: Name that tune
Message:
You can hear it in Harrison's My Sweet Lord, too.
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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 01:15:04 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: And we wonder why premies don't think well
Message:
Here are some of today's 'Expressions' on ELK. Like theri cult leader, these people sound like bad Kabir imitators. It's a wonder they can talk at all, they're so fucked up:

Practising every day and trying to grasp it, and trying to find that reminder in participation does not always provide this incredible feeling. I just watched again a video of Maharaji and.... there suddenly I received again this incredible feeling.

This feeling I leave so often and seek so often again. Many things are nice in life but nevertheless again and again: this feeling proves to be the best.

?????

I wake up again
at the dawn of a new day
that superbly
is coming in,
and the birds
bringing in
their guitars
they sing a song
dedicated to you.

The song seems to say:
Please leave
just a moment
your warm pillow
and sit dawn
and contemplate
the miracle of this real love.

?????

So what!
What is art???

Abstraction?
Reality?
Truth?

What is God!!???

Generator?
Operator?
Destroyer!!?

What Am 'I'!!???
Intelligent?
Interactive?
Individual?

What now!!***???

Want to
Hear
All
The truth

No
Other
While

O.K.!!

One
Knowledge!!

Thank you!!

????

Shy moon
Hiding in the haze
I can see your white face
Hope you can hear my tune
Shy moon
Please, tell my master that
I wish that he project his image on the moon
I miss his wise presence
I miss his love
I miss him
Then I turn inside myself and I feel love!

????

I find it difficult to write
To end it once and for all:
But simply open the curtain
And there will be light in this darkness
I showed me how to do it.
Thank you.

?????

I love you guys! You are doing so much good for so many people. You may not realize this at times, but anyone person, soul, embracing the good, the truth, the real, elevates all those in contact with them! We definitely can find strength in coming together. Yes! Yes! Yes! To this heart :) Thanks.

????

This morning, I saw you
This morning, I heard you
This morning, I felt you
This morning, you were so sweet
This morning, I was with you
And this morning again, I was me...

????

Two images of one's expression: Bloom and grow: an opening for inner joy

????

I fill my bowl to see you

As I step lightly, dressed in silks behind your black eyes, now I take a very precious and beautiful bowl, along the way I collect a droplet and another drop and yet another of water, and this water starts singing as I walk and walk - it moves the bowl, and even this walk seems long to me behind your black eyes.

That's why, wary, I don't want even one drop to leave my bowl.

Finally, I get there and, very happy and full, I offer you this traveller's water and the little bowl that collected its singer's notes so that you could hear, so that your eyes could see it full.

????

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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 19:00:19 (GMT)
From: Sean
Email: seang2@earthlink.net
To: Jim
Subject: 'Never trust a junkie' (Ministry)
Message:
I am very curious about what exactly is going on in the mind when premies are having these experiences. After all, every cult in the world provides essentially the same experience. It obviously has nothing to do with their leaders, or their doctrines. I suspect the shriners have a similar experience at their conventions, which is why they never miss one. Jerry Falwell 'loves' me to death (or would if he could). I don't think our understanding of the infinite recesses of the mind is sufficient to explain it yet, but inquiring minds want to know.
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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 03:01:49 (GMT)
From: Fred
Email: None
To: Sean
Subject: 'Never trust a junkie' (Ministry)
Message:
I'd be more curious to know what used to go on in the minds of all those Deadheads at concerts...
The minds of premies...probably if you stuck all those words M spouts in a bag, mixed them up and let them come out in whatever haphazard way, you'd have the mind of a premie - for what could be in the utterly-devoted-to-M-premie but regurgitated gobbledygook?
If there were any clarity, could she/he be utterly devoted?
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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 00:59:43 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Mir = Url (a/k/a Nil)?
Message:
Don't want to start a whole Rob thing again but I'm just wondering. Mir, if you're reading this, are you Url (a/k/a Nil)? Yes or no?
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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 17:10:45 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Mir = Url (a/k/a Nil)?
Message:
Geez Jim,
You've played a really big part on this forum over the years, but please don't give yourself credit for starting 'the whole Rob thing'. IMO, Rob, started the whole Rob thing, and no one else.

I'd believe Mir when he says he's really Rob. Why not?
Another possibility is that
Mir's posts could be authored by URL-Nil and Rob working as a team.
Then again you may be right, that URL-Nil alone is Mir.
Whether its Rob alone, or URL-Nil alone or the two of them working together, I think we can safely say this.
Mir's posts are authored by an individual or individuals who are cowardly mimics, fakers, and bullshit artists.

Pretty much your typical premie, just a little more polished in communication skills.

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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 18:02:02 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: But I didn't say that
Message:
Joey, I never said for a moment that I started the first 'Rob thing'. Of course not, and why would I ever want to say that anyway? I was just saying I didn't want to start another 'Rob thing'. And I don't. Believe me, I don't.

No, I was just asking. But, for what it's worth, I think Mir was just joking about beong 'Rob'. I don't think he'd have even mentioned him if I hadn't first, in passing.

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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 02:40:37 (GMT)
From: Lucifer Springer
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Oh !This is a beautiful.Jim and Joey almost civil
Message:
Wow, I'm impressed. Hold the Promo Don King, the pitbulls are licking each other's...........
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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 14:02:29 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Lucifer Springer
Subject: But you're NOT, Lucifer
Message:
By posting this crap anonymously, and especially by choosing the handle 'Lucifer Springer', you've proven my main point to Jim... that you guys really are a bunch of 'cowardly mimics, fakers and bullshit artists'.
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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 02:48:04 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Lucifer Springer
Subject: Oh !This is a beautiful.Jim and Joey almost civil
Message:
No wait a week. I wouldn't waste your money
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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 01:42:19 (GMT)
From: Mir
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Gimme a break!
Message:
Those guys seemed ultra combative. I'm really Rob.
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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 02:42:52 (GMT)
From: Rob the latter
Email: None
To: Mir
Subject: Gimme a break!
Message:
You can't be Rob, I'M Rob!!!!!(for a day) Tee Hee!!!
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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 00:12:48 (GMT)
From: Fran
Email: kia@mac.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Duped?
Message:
I am an ex-premie who just discovered this site and I've been reading what people had to say. I have also posted my own 'journey.'

One thing that strikes me is how many people speak of having been 'duped' or 'tricked.' Doesn't that imply a malevelous intent on the part of Maharaj Ji? Doesn't that involve blaming him for a choice we made ourselves?

As far as I'm concerned, he offered the knowledge and we took it. We may no longer believe it is 'true' or whatever but that doesn't mean anyone's been duped or tricked. He gave us what he considered true knowledge and we are free to believe what we want about it now.

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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 15:06:31 (GMT)
From: cqg
Email: None
To: Fran
Subject: Duped?
Message:


Duped. Without a doubt.


Remember this:(link)




Peace Established

'And I challenge this, to the whole world, that by Divine United Organization, and by the Grace of Almighty Lord, and the power of Knowledge, the bliss of the Knowledge, again peace in the world can be established, in the same way as people have dreamed of, and the kingdom of heaven on this Earth will be possible and is possible, if you work together, with cooperation and in the manner I have explained to you, of Divine United Organizations. Everyone will have shelter even a small ant and then lions and goats will drink water in the same pool and will be satisfied.

And then, it will be just incredible, because I cannot describe it, it seems to be just, let me say, beyond human comprehension. And I can say this with challenge, that this is possible, to the whole world, this is possible. This is possible, because we have an infinite Knowledge, and the world is finite. '


Duped and naive.

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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 00:35:40 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Fran
Subject: Yes, of course
Message:
Fran,

I'm a criminal lawyer who's dealt with a number of fraud cases. I'm used to pondering the mens rea (i.e., mental element) of fraud not just from the legal persepctive but also the moral one. Believe it or not, the two are inextricably linked.

There are more than one theoretical bases for fraud. The most flagrant cases, I guess, would be where the fraud artist is known to have smirked and boasted behind his victim's back like Snidely Whiplash -- you know: 'nya ah ah!' -- as he rubs his greedy plams together. But there are also fraud artists who expend all sorts of energy gaining their victims' trust and are, at best, extremely reckless as to how their victims ultimately fare. They're fraud artists too and the law treats them just as harshly as the other kind.

Consider Maharaji. He exacted the most trust imaginable from his victims. He told us he was God and ordered us to not entertain even the slightest doubt about him. More than a few premies committed suicide because of the difficulty of maintaining that level of faith.

At some point, even if he didn't know so from the start, Maharaji must have realized that he'd lead us all down the ultimate, impossible primrose path. His responsiblity to let us down gently, then, would have been immense. Instead, he did nothing of the sort but continues, to this day, to let his victims line up and kiss his feet. He continues to let people base their whole lives around him. He continues to let people give him as much money as they possibly can. Nay, he encourages these sorely misguided efforts.

Maharaji, in many ways, is truly the ultimate fraud artist. I can't imagine a worse case.

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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 08:29:41 (GMT)
From: X
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yes, of course
Message:
>in many ways, is truly the ultimate fraud artist. I can't imagine a worse case.

Look in the mirror.

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 00:29:11 (GMT)
From: Xplain yourself
Email: None
To: X
Subject: or piss off ...
Message:
Jim defined his terms and outlined a case. Can you give one good reason for calling HIM a fraud - or is this your only means of not having to confront the obvious re. your cult leader? Take your time. Think about it. Come back when you have a useful contribution to make.
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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 05:26:03 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: How many suicides?
Message:
Jim,
How do you conclude there were more than a few suicides? Seriously. I mean, considering the ordinary incidence of suicide in the general population, how much higher do you reckon it was among premies who were around during the heavy devotional days. And do you think the cult in its current incarnation would also cause more suicides than normal?
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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 04:41:54 (GMT)
From: Jackie
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: How many suicides?
Message:
I just heard about another suicide by a child of a premie. For some reason or other I get the feeling that the rate of suicide is higher than the average. I don't have any proof of this - no figures or anything, just what I've heard on this forum.

Love,

Jackie

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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 23:08:01 (GMT)
From: selene
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: one is enough! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 19:18:12 (GMT)
From: Sean
Email: seang2@earthlink.net
To: selene
Subject: one is enough! nt
Message:
Wasn't (isn't?) 'Knowledge' supposed to free everyone of all that pain? Why would anyone be in so much pain, that they would kill themselves to end it after 'receiving Knowledge'. M led everyone around with a carrot promising infinite joy and freedom. It was so simple. He said all you had to do was receive this knowledge (nothing else) and the pain was over. He was very unequivocal about it. Knowledge=no more pain. When it didn't happen, there were endless explanations about why. And the why was always our fault. How it could it be our fault if Knowledge is perfect and infinite, etc. So our pain and confusion that we bring with us is more powerful than M and Knowledge. It is inescapable, unless you are in total denial and refuse to see what's in front of you.
M is false and Knowledge doesn't work. If it did work, there would have been NO suicides and the entire world would be enveloped in bliss.
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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 20:46:20 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Sean
Subject: one is enough! nt
Message:
Hi Sean!
Exactly.
He duped us indeed if his promise of endless bliss
and true internal merging with the divine joy and
experience of true godhood ended in even ONE
suicide.
What a fucking asshole. And it made him
wealthier than most can ever hope for.
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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 16:52:50 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: Enough
Message:
I knew a handful (like maybe seven?) suicides. I'd say that's far more than the average normal population 'yield' and yes, I know that a few of these died specifically because they were freaked out and fucked up by m's agya to 'surrender' our minds.
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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 00:35:14 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Fran
Subject: Duped?
Message:
It is hard to answer w/o knowing your circumstances.

I can only speculate and you'll have to excuse me
if I seem incredulous!
Were you independently wealthy? Or did you receive
K in those K-lite years when there was no pressure
to drop all every month to travel all over the world
for a week?

Lose job after job? Try to raise kids on a shoestring?
Or live in crowded ashrams in unnatural lifestyles?
Never attaining any meaningful job skills until
you were in your mid thirties?

Those are the types of things that led me to feeling
duped. Did HE do that per se? He created the lifestyle
that led to the loss of coping skills and financial
management skills.

Giving away money we didn't have, putting M and traveling to see him and supporting his 'mission' (read his lifestyle) first this led to chaotic family life and disruptive parenting.
Duped is as good a word as any.
If you didn't experience any of that I guess you were
somehow sheltered from it.

Most of the people I knew and know were not.

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Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 19:34:24 (GMT)
From: Djuro
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Can you imagine,
Message:
how life woud be boring without Maharaji?
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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 15:37:03 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Djuro
Subject: the light of a candle
Message:
If you are in a pitch dark room, and you strike a match and light a candle, it will seem bright.

If you are outside in the light of day, and you strike a match and light a candle, it will seem dim.

When you cut yourself off from 'the world', it seems like a dark, boring place. But that is because you are not paying attention. In such a situation, m seems so bright, which is just what he wants.

I remember emotionally starving myself between programs. When I would see m, I would allow myself to feel emotions and there would be an incredible emotional release. On top of that, I projected these feelings onto m.

Aren't you tired of this starvation?

I think this may be the worst aspect of the cult.

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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 02:17:12 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: G
Subject: grateful for M's crumbs
Message:
That IS an excellent point, G (as Jim says). This whole idea of singlepointed sublimation/sensory deprivation is pretty central to why there is the emotional high at the Master's feet or in the vicinity of the Master. It is a strange way to live and it does get tiring.

Within M's world, it was argued, we would get everything we need. We were the beggars, remember? SO deprived that any scrap of love thrown our way was a sign that M loved us. To a beggar any morsel is divine.

The guru I had before M drummed it into my mind that only those with 'humble simplicity' would get into the kingdom of heaven.Watching ashramites from both gurus trying so damn hard to be humble was such a torture.

Most days now I am glad to be sitting at the banquet and eating the whole meal instead of the crumbs.

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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 19:30:33 (GMT)
From: Sean
Email: seang2@earthlink.net
To: Helen
Subject: grateful for M's crumbs
Message:
'Most days now I am glad to be sitting at the banquet and eating the whole meal instead of the crumbs.'

That's it exactly Helen. Our lives were passing us by, while we thought we were being saintly begging for crumbs. Those of us that didn't make it missed the entire banquet and that pisses me off the most. We've got brothers and sisters who should be sitting here with us passing the gravy, but they're not because they starved on the crumbs and are already gone.

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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 19:59:10 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Sean
Subject: grateful for M's crumbs
Message:
So true. Those crumbs just don't do it. I remember being so poor I had just a couple changes of clothes and didn't even have a checking account. And I didn't even live in the ashram. All my energy went into this preoccupation with 'finding God.' (not just with M but with the previous guru who was a more serious spiritual trip guru). I was in chronic pain and didn't seek medical help until much later. After all, God/Guru would take care of it. Now I see how dysfunctional that was not to take better care of myself, have more self-interest, put more energy into career and financial future. ANd those that lived in the ashram had it 100x as bad as far as getting their bearings when the ashrams were closed down. Not fit for 'this world.' Incredibly destructive, a waste of human potential and life.
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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 18:39:11 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Seeing 'red'
Message:
G,

Good analogy, but I think what Djuro (which I think is a cool name) is trying to say is, even as ex-premies, we still get our thrills thanks to M, and that's why we congregate on this forum. I could be wrong but that's the way I read it.

I, personally, would rather I'd never met the guy. But I did, suffered because of it, and only recently am I freeing myself from his mental grasp and getting my life in order. I consider this forum a godsend in that regard. I don't consider my life interesting, as Djuro seems to suggest, because of the impact M has had on it. Overall, that impact has been a negative one.

I've been thinking about the seeing 'red' question and have some thoughts on it which I'm still working on for clarification. I'll get back to you when I have. It has to do with the problems of dualism and how that theory doesn't hold up very well, I don't think, to the cold light of reason. I'm not saying pure materialism (consciouness = brain) holds up any better, but I think it's closer to the truth than dualism. I'll post more when I've got it clearer in my head what I want to say. It's a fascinating topic and I consider you a good adversary in it. You raise some important questions to consider.

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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 23:34:04 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Seeing 'red'
Message:
I've been thinking about the seeing 'red' question and have some thoughts on it which I'm still working on for clarification. I'll get back to you when I have. It has to do with the problems of dualism and how that theory doesn't hold up very well, I don't think, to the cold light of reason. I'm not saying pure materialism (consciouness = brain) holds up any better, but I think it's closer to the truth than dualism. I'll post more when I've got it clearer in my head what I want to say. It's a fascinating topic and I consider you a good adversary in it. You raise some important questions to consider.

My guess is that the way it really is is somewhere between materialism and dualism. It could be that consciousness, matter, and energy are all aspects of the same thing.

Dualism is suspect because it does not provide for a link between awareness and the physical world. And Descartes didn't know about endorphins, etc. It can't just happen by magic. Emotions, thoughts, and physical sensations are at least highly related to the physical world and there are mechanics involved. I wonder, why does the presense of an endorphin trigger a good feeling? What is feeling what?

Materialism is also suspect because it treats awareness as an illusion. IMO, it assumes a hypothetical, conceptual viewpoint outside of awareness and looks at it from the outside in and finds nothing. This runs counter to my actual experience.

The Quantum Brain theory looks interesting. Actually, I found it rather confronting when I first read about it, for my viewpoints are probably too dualistic. I will provide a good link I found in a new thread.

My guess is that there is a gradual transition between the physical world and awareness. Maybe there is quantum stuff going on and underlying that there is string stuff going on. String theory states that everything is made of strings, whatever they are.

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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 18:16:26 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Excellent point, G
Message:
I remember emotionally starving myself between programs. When I would see m, I would allow myself to feel emotions and there would be an incredible emotional release. On top of that, I projected these feelings onto m.

That's so true, isn't it? There was a certain model of a 'good devotee' who would not emote other than perhaps when giving satsang. 'Festivals' provided another opportunity to wear our hearts a little more on our sleeves.

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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 01:34:09 (GMT)
From: Amari
Email: None
To: Djuro
Subject: Can you imagine,
Message:
I'm sorry, but you give the impression that you're not playing with a full deck. Perhaps life would seem boring sans Maharaji, but that may be caused by your deep attachment to superficiality, as in thinking that M is the Source of All Worth Experiencing. Sorry, buddy boy, but it ain't so. I find life far from boring. What does bore me, though, is the sentiment you expressed, incredulous as it is. Get out, take a look around, read a newspaper, check it out. Boredom and denial are closely related.
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Date: Tues, Feb 29, 2000 at 16:55:24 (GMT)
From: Djuro
Email: None
To: Amari
Subject: Can you imagine,
Message:
If life is far from boring, why you stick to Maharaji?
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Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 20:56:14 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Djuro
Subject: No, and what an odd and shallow concept
Message:
Duh!

You ought to get out more and get a life.

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Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 20:08:07 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Djuro
Subject: life is not boring
Message:
Life is not boring.
Boredom is just a negative mind set.
I've been through some 'exciting' things
that make 'boring' look good.
There are plenty of sources of 'excitement'.
The 'Unique Event' was boring.
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Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 20:02:16 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Djuro
Subject: Imagine this
Message:
I wish I'd never met him. I wouldn't have to be bothered with this crap of rearranging my mind and life now that I've accepted what a bunch of malarkey he is.

You're playing the role of antagonist, Djuro. Why? You got what you wanted. Didn't you? We didn't and now have to come to terms with that.

Fuck off.

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Date: Tues, Feb 29, 2000 at 17:00:34 (GMT)
From: Djuro
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Imagine this
Message:
You wish you'd never met Maharaji. Then, you would never get to know ex-premies. Wouldn't life be boring?
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Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 13:58:10 (GMT)
From: Sir dave
Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: That picture and more you may have missed
Message:
If you didn't see the picture of Lord Krishna on a papier mache lotus being worshipped by his devotees then you can see it on my web site.

click here to go there

and see the Lords in all their glories. Yep, there's more than one Lord and there will be more on the site when I get the time.

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Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 20:49:50 (GMT)
From: cqg
Email: None
To: Sir dave
Subject: The 'thought-bubble' above M's head could read ...
Message:
The 'thought-bubble' above M's head could read ...

' so I get to play God for a while? Cool ...'

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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 01:16:14 (GMT)
From: snow white
Email: None
To: cqg
Subject: The 'thought-bubble' above M's head could read ...
Message:
Or,
'that coke is really good!'
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Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 16:39:18 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Sir dave
Subject: Way is right: Pictures speak better than thousand
Message:
words. Is it possible to have a link on F5 page to be there all the time? Very eye opening.

Do you want more pictures?

S

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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 17:17:23 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk
To: SB
Subject: More pictures of enlightened beings - yes please!
Message:
There's always a need for us unelnightened creatures to view the superior and enlightened souls to which we may aspire. Yes, I need more darshan of these great souls!
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Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 16:51:02 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Pictures' galleries are the most visited
Message:
pages on my website !

Maybe I should add more of them ...

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Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 16:53:30 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Pictures' galleries are the most visited
Message:
what about adding a link on F5 page to offer pictures?
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Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 17:05:31 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: were you like me at events?
Message:
At breaks? They'd all pour into the 'gallery' and I'd wander around avoiding the pictures at all costs while
others bought them uo and drooled over them.
I'd escape with one video and one cassette.
Listen to 2 songs by Dya in my car once.
Never play the video. give it to the lipstick
girl.
But the way they went on about the pictures!!
Who says he is just a meditation teacher huh?????
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Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 18:33:32 (GMT)
From: Djuro
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: were you like me at events?
Message:
I don't use to buy videos and cassettes. Why did you?
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Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 21:51:39 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Djuro
Subject: brave or foolish premie?
Message:
Dear Djuro,

Are they using you as cannon fodder here? You seem to be rather out of your depth on this forum.
I suggest you retreat from the field before you get wounded. Return to headquarters and tell them you're just not up to the task. Get them to send someone more qualified.

It's for your own good .

with only your best interests at heart.

Hal

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Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 18:54:19 (GMT)
From: slene
Email: None
To: Djuro
Subject: though you are transparent
Message:
I DO want to answer this:
We all bought stuff in those rooms for the same resons:
because it was expected of us.
Some of us were so programmed we truly believed
we wanted the shit.
Others like me are consumers anyway. And I was bored
to tears. And I like music. Dya, or however she
spells her name, sounds OK. like I said once or
twice. I don't know if all the cassettes are lousy
productions but mine either broke right away or
I lost them soon after I bought them.
I bought shit because it was the thing to do. I was
TRYING to be a 'good premie'. why on earth else would
I buy the shit?
Now I ask YOU..... why does he SELL so many pictures of
himself? What is the reasoning behind selling so many
pictures of himself?
Why does one want to own so many pictures of someonw
who is only a meditation teacher to them?
Or are they devotees and he is the master and that
is why? Which is it these days?
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Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 19:11:01 (GMT)
From: Djuro
Email: None
To: slene
Subject: though you are transparent
Message:
I don't understund you. M. doesnot sell any pictures, your friends do. Have you ever see M selling pictures?
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Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 19:17:51 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Djuro
Subject: you are transparent and naive
Message:
I myself saw Maharaji on 1996 get into the sales area. When the program was about to start he went in to see it all and walked in the picture gallery. I was there doing 'service/slaving and we were told to leave because M was coming. I was at the door when he got in. He knows very well his pictures are sold and he has never objected. WHY?? VERY PROFITABLE!!
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Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 19:21:48 (GMT)
From: Djuro
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: you are transparent and naive
Message:
Why object, when there are people like you that wanted to buy pictures?
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Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 21:37:36 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Djuro
Subject: Djuro, Get help now ! ntll
Message:
ll
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Date: Tues, Feb 29, 2000 at 16:44:17 (GMT)
From: Djuro
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Djuro, Get help now ! ntll
Message:
Hal! 1 dolar! Help!
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Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 19:37:23 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Djuro
Subject: Who told you I bought pictures?
Message:
Did I say I bought all the ones I have? I said I have many. An ashram premie collected all garbage when ashrams closed and as a present, I had the 'grace' to be given by him a box full of old stuff. Glad I kept the box because now they can be useful, to show further who the guru is.

Can 'play' anymore. I have to go to work.

Good luck to you!

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Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 15:02:46 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Sir dave
Subject: That picture and more you may have missed
Message:
Sir Dave,

Yes, please keep this up. And don't forget the Divine Mothers who are currently embodying the feminine side of the Godhead. See, for instance, Sahaja Yoga, about Sri Mataji, lots of outrageous pictures!! Boy, is she ugly. If she is a manifestation of God then I'm an athiest, real quick.

This could make a good book, or at least a website. Pictures are worth a thousand words and all of these gurus have a load of skeletons in their closets.

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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 17:19:05 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: That picture and more you may have missed
Message:
I can't find this Mataji site you mentioned. All I found on a search was some music. Perhaps you could let me have the URL please.
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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 22:10:10 (GMT)
From: michael
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: I found this mataji site - good old wierd and
Message:
wired India! They sure like to be devotees over there. don't they?

mataji

I did a search on - shri mata ji - using hotbot.

Enjoy! ;-)

PS I ain't a devoty of nobodynohow!

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 23:29:27 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: michael
Subject: the site that startled !!!
Message:
I forgot I had left my speakers on REAL loud (Garbage) Friday to
bother the geeks outside. Went over to the mataJi side, clicked
on the picture gallery link and blasted myself with the
looping 'hindi music'
Yikes, it wouldn't stop. they must really wonder about me :)
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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 19:42:33 (GMT)
From: cqg
Email: None
To: michael
Subject: weird?(as in 'dree one's weird'-as in suffer one's
Message:

weird?(i.e. dree one's weird-as in suffer one's FATE?

I checked out the site (v. briefly) and did a search on:
'maharaji'

Result:

Percentage numbers indicate what percent of the search words were found in the file, and do not necessarily indicate how close together they were.

Nothing was found to match maharaji.

Nothing was found to match maharaji???

Ironic or WHAT???




Hey, how must that feel - to have disowned (didn't he? or did she?) your own mother for the materialist lifestyle???

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Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 07:18:05 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Freedom
Message:
Dear all,

My sincere thanks to all of the contributors to this forum. You have assisted me a great deal to think more clearly about my life through reading all your contributions here.

I am stunned to realise what a burden I've carried for all these years of trying to be a sincere seeker of truth.

I've also seen lately what a grip that guru has had on all my thought processes for years.

I've stopped doing any meditational practices for a couple of weeks now and at this moment it seems more beneficial for me to stop seeking anything and just enjoy being a member of the human race again.

I found it difficult to let go of the love I've felt for M. What a powerful trick he pulled on me.

Thanks for stomping on me when I came on to the forum with my lame justifications of Rawat. I'm starting to feel an unbearable lightness of being coming on.

All my life I've been carrying some kind of guilt about not being good enough , or worthy enough and M had perpetrated that feeling.

Freedom train is coming my way!

Thanks guys

Love Hal

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 10:51:40 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: It's getting better all the time.
Message:
Hi Hal,

It's over a year and a half since I quit the cult, and that lovely feeling inside, of things sliding back into place and forgotten treasures falling out of cupboards to be dusted off, is still continuing.

I'm getting my real self back after all these years. It's incredible how deep the programming went, but once you chop it at the root, however, it withers and dies really fast.

I almost feel sorry for these toe suckers like Mir, still running on faith and effort, still pissing into the wind.

It's a dying, introverted little cult, slowly sinking in the mud of 60s memorabilia.

Breath deep the air of freedom Hal. It never stops tasting good, and nobody ever goes back to prison, once they've had a sniff.

Yahoo, watch the cult crumble.

Anth the Iconoclast.

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 14:04:05 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: It's getting better all the time.
Message:
Thanks for the support Anth.It's good to see you posting again.

I still find it hard incredible that all those years I found you inspiring you were not experiencing anything in meditation besides the old snot and earwax. Were you just getting off on devotion? Love Hal.

I remember many times in a satsang hall having the almost irrepressable desire to stand up and shout 'BOLLOCKS'. In retrospect I really wish I had.

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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 01:03:51 (GMT)
From: Mirror
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Freedom
Message:
Hey Hal. I appreciate what you are saying about lightness. Funny thing though is I feel an incredible lightness in my life too but practising Knowledge only enhances it. So maybe, just maybe one doesn't have to give up M to get that feeling. Maybe it's something else that's causing the burden of guilt.

I see it like this. A guy's got a tumour growing in his arm. He first notices a swelling and watches it slowly grow bigger over time. He experiences increasing pain but doesn't know what's causing it. He goes to this backwater hick doctor who has never heard of a CT scanner and says, 'Sorry son but the arm's no good…has to come off'. The guy is upset but because he doesn't know a thing about medicine and is in a hurry, he agrees. So the hick puts the guy under the knife and cuts the arm off. The guy wakes up, and after a few weeks starts to feel better. 'Yeah', he says, 'that arm of mine really did have to come off. Thanks Doc'. Pays the bill and walks away.

If the guy had sought a second opinion and found a 'real' doctor who diagnosed the problem properly, he would have been advised to have the lump removed, and he could save the arm. Instead he lost his arm. But the interesting thing is he will never know how much better it could have turned out if the proper diagnosis was made. To his dying day he will tell people the arm was the source of his pain. Sad thing is he will sing the praise of the hick doctor and refer others to him.

So you've chopped off M from your life. And miracle of miracles, no more guilt. You will discover you can live without your arm. What might even make the whole thing easier is your arm probably wasn't much use to you these days anyway. So be it Hal. But to the person who values their arm--say like someone who makes a living from playing sweet music--they would do whatever they could to save their arm. They would make sure they understood the deeper reasons causing the pain and would take measures to eradicate the real problem. Because besides saving the arm, if you don't kill the real disease it will no doubt infect another body part some day.

Anyway Hal, that's how I see it. As I said, I feel liberation every day and still practice Knowledge…every day. So what are you going to do now? Spend the rest your life bantering with the Limbless Losers Internet Chat Club? I hope not!

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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 17:08:25 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mirror
Subject: Ha, ha ha -- your analogy's upside down, Mir
Message:
The operation we didn't need was having Maharaji try to cut out our mind. Do you remember shit like this:

The only thing he asks for in return is our mind, our wandering mind that is all over the place. He says, give me your mind, and all these things are for you. Why does he take back our minds? Because he wants to give them some discipline, He wants to put them in the right place. Maharaj Ji has given you so much and you promised you would return your mind to Him.

Yeah? Well I do too. This was the unnecessary surgery, Mir. Think about it (if you still can).

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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 15:53:27 (GMT)
From: cqg
Email: None
To: Mirror
Subject: Freedom
Message:


Strange analogy, Mir,

So getting Knowledge was 'free', but leaving the Maha costs an arm (and a leg)?

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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 16:21:51 (GMT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: cqg
Subject: Freedom
Message:
Well we know for sure it costs an arm and a leg to stay around, both financially and mentally. If the premies want to keep giving money to another loser (M) let em, I mean M thinks hes god one year and says he isn't the next, says no sex one year and sex is okay the next - he is like and addict - just always telling people whatever he thinks they will believe just so he can score. and he has benefited enormously from his scores.
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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 16:42:44 (GMT)
From: cqg
Email: None
To: Ben Lurking
Subject: So last year's agya = next years bullshit!!!(nt)
Message:
So last year's agya = next years bullshit!!!(nt)
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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 10:25:32 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Mirror
Subject: Life goes on
Message:
Dear mirror,
You seem to have a deeply ingrained belief that everything stops when one leaves M. The only way to find out that this is just not true is to leave.

I think that it's impossible to see clearly what has and is happening to one as a premie whilst still completely in the mindset of M & K.

I in no way see this move away from that mindset as being the end of my evolution in awareness.

Have you ever considered the possibility that M is holding you back from really discovering that you are the experience? That he is part of the illusion. That in reality there is no guru and student, no separation of identities. We are the Isness. There is nothing superior or inferior. No one to worship or feel gratitude to, that it is all One.

You refer to the contributors on this forum as losers. Yes , I agree , many people lost out on a fulfilling life by surrendering themselves fully to M , but thats not how you meant it is it?

I have enjoyed posting on this forum and I don't need any justifications, I simply do what I enjoy doing. Selene made a valid point to you. Why are you hanging around with us losers?

Mirror, you sound like an educated, intelligent person. Have a look at why you are attracted to trying to justify your perspective by posting here? Hal

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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 06:58:23 (GMT)
From: Mirror
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Life goes on
Message:
Hal, I am intimately aware everything doesn't stop when you leave Maharaji...believe me, I don't fit into the usual premie mould. My life-breath blows from within me without warning when I am completely away from that so-called 'premie mindset'. It shepherds me to a place that feels like home. Of late I have rediscovered the simple, pristine life brought about by a heart that begs. To whom does it beg? Who knows. In fact it doesn't matter. I am of the opinion it is better to have a heart that begs than a god that's true. Why? Because the begging heart will always find its way home. It was Maharaji who showed me this secret. It was he who taught me to beg.

So Hal...enjoy your life!

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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 10:36:31 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Mirror
Subject: Life goes on
Message:
Thanks mir I fully intend to. Love Hal. Best wishes to you too.
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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 01:12:49 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Mirror
Subject: why would you want to hang around losers?
Message:
So what are you doing here? Why be around losers?
Limbless ones no less! Yeah I knew I needed that
other thing! I KNEW those guys had it better than
I did.DAMNED!!
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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 01:39:34 (GMT)
From: Mirror
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: why would you want to hang around losers?
Message:
Whether you're better off without it depends on the degree that you valued it. That is key. And perceived value is a factor of need combined with realisable functionality. Let's face it, not eveyone sees the same benefit to Knowledge. It is but natural that people who don't value it very highly would let it go. And the pain some feel when they walk away is whatever value they once felt speaking to them. Funny thing is they hold M responsible for that pain. Too bad when you cut off your arm you can't just keep the fingers.
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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 03:09:00 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Mirror
Subject: why would you want to hang around losers?
Message:
Mirror,

We've still got the knowledge, but we don't have to pay the high price Maharaji demands. Anyone can have the knowledge for free. Why does Maharaji demand our money? And don't tell me he doesn't. I receive requests for money from his organisation regularly.

John.

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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 01:44:40 (GMT)
From: selene
Email: None
To: Mirror
Subject: yeah too bad that made no sense
Message:
my friend is here. Gotta go. Keep those fingers
outta trouble. And don't hurt your eyeballs.
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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 01:48:16 (GMT)
From: Mirror
Email: None
To: selene
Subject: Pearls before swine! :o) (nt)
Message:
Gotta go too.
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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 23:23:00 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Mirror
Subject: Swine? Thanks a lot! It's not like I weigh
Message:
200 pounds or something! I didn't call you names.
Be civilized you aren't even on your own turf - what a rude thing to say.
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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 00:04:22 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Swine? Thanks a lot! It's not like I weigh
Message:
Selene,

'Pearls before swine' is a saying from the bible. It means don't offer wisdom to those too ignorant to appreciate it. Apparently, our friend Mirror thinks he/she is a fount of wisdom that us fools are too stubborn to drink from. Personally, I think Mirror could learn a thing or two from you, if she/he had 'ears to listen'. And I'm certain that Mirror would be thrown aback if Heidi the you-know-who were to give him/her a piece of her mind. Eh?

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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 00:15:15 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: thanks Jerry
Message:
Though I had the Bible crammed into my Irish Catholic brain as a child I chose to ignore the obvious reference.
He/she makes an assumption
I give a shit about the biblical references ON TOP of
giving a shit about his/her premiedom AND that I am a fat
pig. Hmmmm. that is 3 insults. And that NAME!! Mirror. How arrogant. Too funny really. mirror indeed. he/she better look in to that mirror don't you think?
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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 20:10:42 (GMT)
From: cqg
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Mirrors get things backwards enough as it is(nt)
Message:
Mirrors get things backwards enough as it is(nt)
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Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 18:34:48 (GMT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Freedom
Message:
Now you can feel what Richie Havens meant with the rendition he did at Woodstock. M's caon is like any other good con - there is some truth in what he says, but that does not make everything he says true.
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Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 18:53:35 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Ben Lurking
Subject: Freedom
Message:
Absofuckinlutely right Ben. It's been difficult for me to move on because I wasn't traumatised and I actually have had good experiences in meditation. The trick was him claiming that those experiences came by his grace. That was wicked. Hal.
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Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 20:20:24 (GMT)
From: cqg
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Freedom train now on platform 1... calling at-
Message:
Freedom train now on platform 1... calling at-

Ticket? What ticket?

Dig.

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Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 14:54:20 (GMT)
From: Jack
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Freedom
Message:
Dear Hal,

I'm glad you are feeling better. I would like to write to you personally. Could I get your email from Anthony as he's got mine and could pass it along?

I would really appreciate it.

Besr regards,

Jack

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Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 14:14:26 (GMT)
From: Fred
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Freedom
Message:
It seems to me if you are now seeing the 'powerful trick' M played on you, you proved some success as a 'seeker of truth'. Living clean man, it's all about taking each day. There's an old Buddhist saying about enlightenment...

'First mountains and mountains and rivers are rivers.
Then mountains are no longer moutains and rivers are not longer rivers.
Finally, mountains are mountains and rivers are rivers.'

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Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 20:22:06 (GMT)
From: cqg
Email: None
To: Fred
Subject: Caterpillar sheds his skin to find ... :) (nt)
Message:
Caterpillar sheds his skin to find ... :) (nt)
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Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 15:39:40 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Freedom
Message:
Congrats Hal. I think you are so right that the 'seeker of truth' the 'remember him with every breath' mantle is a heavy weight indeed, a full-time occupation that ultimately is lacking in real joy. It is really stressful too. It's good to allow oneself to be human. I spent 7-8 years following a swami and then Guru M, years when I laid such a heavy trip on myself that I had to 'find God'.

There is probably a reason why each of us sought a path where we could never be 'good enough' & I think it's important to recognize where that thought came from in our lives, lest we repeat the same patterns of getting into destructive relationships, etc. I know this has been a theme I have had to deal with-- Being good enough.

Glad to hear you are enjoying a new lightness in your life.

Helen

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Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 17:25:52 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Freedom
Message:
I know this has been a theme I have had to deal with-- Being good enough.
So TRUE. I have mentioned this a lot that leaving
the cult is the first step. Then you get to see
the other layers left to deal with.
Imagine never seeing them and just going on and
having that stuff pile up underneath?
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Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 18:51:03 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Freedom
Message:
Yikes! I needed M like a hole in the head. But maybe following him put me in the deep freeze until I was ready to deal with my own stuff, kind of like those cryogenic chambers where they will freeze your head when you die and reattach it to another body later when the technology 'becomes available.'

He he

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Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 18:57:11 (GMT)
From: selene
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: and how fitting
Message:
that Leary did that.
syncopy?
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Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 20:50:11 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: selene
Subject: and how fitting
Message:
Didn't he also take LSD right before he died? What a maverick he was, bless his little hippie self. It's weird that I would be talking of severed heads, I just finished Tale of 2 Cities for bok club last night--lots of guillotine action, the story takes place during the French revolution--YUCK! What a weird cult the guillotine was at that time.

It is 70 degrees here I am delerious--it is beautiful. I finished my work and now I am off this machine to enjoy the day and play--yahoo!, have a good weekend Selene!

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Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 17:37:18 (GMT)
From: Djuro
Email: None
To: Selene and others
Subject: Freedom
Message:
Seems you remember M. very much. Lucky enough!
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Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 17:49:03 (GMT)
From: selene
Email: None
To: Djuro
Subject: Freedom
Message:
No don't really remember him much. Never did.
the cult shit is what I remember. It's only been
2 years!
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Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 18:22:17 (GMT)
From: Djuro
Email: None
To: selene
Subject: Freedom
Message:
2 years only?
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Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 18:33:17 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Djuro
Subject: Freedom
Message:
Djuro,

I live somewhere which has lots of mosquitos. Now some of the new agers say that they have some kind of purpose but I can't see that they do. You remind me of an irritating little mosquito.

I love to splat them.

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Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 23:25:57 (GMT)
From: Fran
Email: kia@mac.com
To: Hal
Subject: Freedom
Message:
Of course mosquitoes have a purpose. To live and reproduce, same as us.
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Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 18:50:51 (GMT)
From: Djuro
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Freedom
Message:
Hal, why do you get angry? Is it your freedom?
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Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 19:00:08 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Djuro
Subject: Anger
Message:
I've always been prone to a bit of anger now and then .Premie or not. I don't think it's a bad thing.

I have found it necessary from time to time to get angry with my kids, otherwise they would run riot and ruin our enjoyment of life.

Have you never seen M angry? Or what about Jesus in the moneylenders temple?

Sometimes it's just the only way to deal with people who are fixed in their ways and not open to reason.Like you!

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Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 19:51:07 (GMT)
From: selene
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Anger
Message:
It takes a lot of time to heal and anyone who pretends anger is not part of the process makes me wonder.
I like the line eb quoted me the other day from the pumpkins:

'in spite of all my rage I'm still just a rat in a cage'

big difference though - at least I know I'm in the damned cage, not walking around like I am some blissed out enlightened zombie.
f$#% that.

cheery little me -- off to see American Beauty for the second time. Bringing a convert.

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Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 23:56:21 (GMT)
From: Jack
Email: None
To: selene
Subject: American Beauty
Message:
Wasn't that a great movie? MAybe I should be on a movie chat line. It's as if I don't exist here!

I thought I would like to see it again. Enjoy the show.

Jack

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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 00:02:50 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jack
Subject: American Beauty
Message:
Hi Jack
I ended up with a paranoid faculty member and had
to postpone going til tonight at 7:30 but still am
going again to see it the second time.
I'm wondering if it isn't my favoite yet. Of course
I've said that often.
It is WAY up there though. Yes it is so good.
When I saw it I couldn't figure out which character I
identified most with!

Why do you feel like you don't exist here?
cheer up, you could be me!

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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 19:50:17 (GMT)
From: Sean
Email: seang2@earthlink.net
To: Selene
Subject: American Beauty
Message:
'Why do you feel like you don't exist here?
cheer up, you could be me!'

Hey Selene, you're one of the brightest lights on this forum!

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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 20:54:52 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Sean
Subject: American Beauty
Message:
oh oh. Now that is a scary thought!
Thanks though, but I gotta admit it kinda reminds
me of that quote what is it?
'I wouldn't want to be a member of any club that
would have me'

:)

...

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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 14:09:18 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: American Beauty: depressing
Message:
I got completely depressed watching this movie.
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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 23:43:02 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: American Beauty: depressing
Message:
I am curious why. I have this theory and I may be WAY WAY off here. That people who get depressed at these types of movies either never got really depressed, I mean suicidal clinicaly depressed. Or never got really insane, certifiably.
or never had family situations that resembled the ones in that movie. I am not kidding. Mind did.
Just curious. I am not making this up. So for me, it was funny. It made me laugh because it was real and I could relate. I hate to admit this but I do agree with Jim in that if the screenplay, writing acting etc were not as good as they were it would have been maudlin as in a mary tyler moore thing, and then it would have been depressing. But it had enough of an edge to be out there enough to be 'real' to me.
god i should go take my meds and shut up.
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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 10:06:40 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: American Beauty: depressing
Message:
Well, maybe this is because it's France here.
Nobody laughed here during the show, I agree the acting was good etc but I was really feeling depressed after the movie was finished. I never felt that way before !
I'm not sure why I've felt that way.
Maybe simply because the film was good, I got caught in the scenario, which is the purpose of a good movie ... disturbing really.


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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 15:29:11 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: The Whole Nine Yards
Message:
If you want to become UNdepressed at the movies, now that you've been DEpressed, check out The Whole Nine Yards. I saw it friday night. It was a good, light, fun movie. At least, that's how THIS American saw it. I don't know how well it will go over in France. To be honest, I don't even know if it's playing there. If it is, though, you might want to check it out.
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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 18:20:50 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: American Beauty -- much overrated
Message:
Sure there was some good acting but the plot sucked. We were needlessly duped, predictably set up and moralistically bait-and-switched. But the acting was pretty good.
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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 00:57:52 (GMT)
From: Jackie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: American Beauty -- Great!
Message:
Dear Jim, Selene and all,

I was with two other people and we all applauded at the end.
No-one else in the theatre did and I have hardly ever done this before and seen many movies.

My next door neighbour & her husband hated it because it was too real and depressing. I laughed so much - I agree with Selene it probably pushed a few buttons for me!

Love,

Jackie

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Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 19:13:39 (GMT)
From: dj
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Anger
Message:
Don't be angry with yourself.
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Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 18:43:33 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Hal and Djuro
Subject: Freedom? They carry chains and don't see them
Message:
:) love your example Hal! Mosquitos. hahahaha

Common Djuro. Do yourself a favor: Wake up! Haven't you begin to notice what you got yourself into? CULT WRITTEN ALL OVER!!

Wishing you wake up and stop your dellussion soon.

your sister,

S

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Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 18:54:14 (GMT)
From: Djuro
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Freedom? They carry chains and don't see them
Message:
Everyone is only one.
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Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 19:12:02 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Djuro
Subject: Do stick around, Djuro
Message:
Your unkind and empty-headed sniping speaks volumes.

But just wondered, did you ever try doing a whole paragraph? Striking up a proper conversation? Listening and replying?
In due course you could even have a go at stringing a coherent argument together. (Stranger things have happened to premies, I assure you.)

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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 01:19:01 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Maybe CD can teach him how
Message:
Nigel,

Chris Dickey is offering fellow cult-members introductory classes on trying to talk like regular people. I know, I know. Of course Chris has his own .... um, limitations ... but, like I said, these are only introductory classes. Anything beyond that requires help from outside the cult.

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Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 19:15:51 (GMT)
From: DJ
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Do stick around, Djuro
Message:
No coment
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Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 19:07:56 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Djuro
Subject: Djuro,aren't you late for your English lesson? nt
Message:
e
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Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 19:02:32 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Djuro
Subject: Sorry body, I hope I am not you
Message:
He sold you the idea, eh? Nice words. No. Like I said, I am happy being JUST myself. No collective conciousness theory for me anymore. No need for it. I have no problem being me.

Why your guru is so greedy for power and money? Have you read Bob mishler's interview? If you didn't, do. That woke me up alright...Common! Are you a new premie and you haven't seen enough yet? Brake the jar and get out!

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 01:34:07 (GMT)
From: Mir
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Think about it!
Message:
If you really want to be objective you have to ask yourself if Mishler had anything to gain by discrediting Maharaji. The answer of course is he did. He was trying to right his own reputation after having been fired. So why would you believe Mishler's account without question? This is what just flabbergasts me about you guys. Just how 'pure' and untainted was his account? It is highly likely that is is laced with biase and self-service.

And what makes you think Mishler knew what Maharaji was really going through during that period just because he was geographically close to him? What if a Mishler had been with Jesus in the desert to chronicle his moments of questioning, what would he have ''seen'' Jesus go through? Anything befitting of a ''saviour''?

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Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 19:18:33 (GMT)
From: Djuro
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Sorry body, I hope I am not you
Message:
Do you want to become my guru?
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Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 23:23:48 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Djuro
Subject: A word two or or that does sense make not
Message:
Re: Do you want to become my guru?

For the most part those of us on the Forum have stopped accepting applications, although we'd be glad to make referals. (Jim has a vacancy, I think.)

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 21:30:03 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Djuro
Subject: Mirror, mirror
Message:
and as you look at your wonderful form

put another 1 behind you and you'll see how you look here

another premie riddled with spiritual arrogance who has no idea how shallow they are

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Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 20:26:28 (GMT)
From: cqg
Email: None
To: Djuro
Subject: Gurus are for growing out of ... eventually (nt)
Message:
Gurus are for growing out of ... eventually (nt)

'if you meet the buddha on the way, kill Him immediately!'

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Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 18:40:46 (GMT)
From: selene
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: you read my mind
Message:
Thank you
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