Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 10:22:47 (GMT)
From: Mar 09, 2000 To: Mar 20, 2000 Page: 3 Of: 5


Mel Bourne -:- Forum administration - just for the record.... -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 10:11:57 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Sue me, please. -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 13:00:50 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- Read Mel's first post from 12/07/98 - Sincere? -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 21:21:56 (GMT)
__ ham -:- 'Oy vey' -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 19:07:18 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- 'Just for the record', my ass -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 17:37:51 (GMT)
__ __ Mel Bourne -:- 'Just for the record', my ass -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 02:44:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- What it comes down to, Mel, is this -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 03:09:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- What it comes down to, Mel, is this -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 07:16:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- DuuuuuuHHHHHHHH!!!!! -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 15:19:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Charlie -:- What it comes down to, Mel, is this -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 11:30:46 (GMT)
__ Mike -:- Just for the record, Mel.... NO! -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 15:00:27 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Heaven forbid the Lard ever gets to make the law! -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 18:37:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mike -:- You've asked an excellent question too, Nigel -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 19:12:09 (GMT)
__ TRI -:- Australian Law - What a Farce -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 12:43:18 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Forum administration - just for the record.... -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 11:41:33 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- God, Dave, you're really batting 0 today -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 16:53:18 (GMT)
__ Brian -:- Too funny -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 11:14:29 (GMT)
__ __ Mel Bourne -:- Maybe not so funny for you, Brian -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 01:47:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mike -:- There is NO 'situation,' you moron! -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 16:09:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ Brian -:- No, just boring beyond belief -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 10:56:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Susan -:- I LOVED that post! I am going to read it over! -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 14:43:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- By your logic, premies should sue Maharaji -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 03:51:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- By your logic, premies should sue Maharaji -:- Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 07:12:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ G -:- I'm not a lawyer so I don't know but I'll do what -:- Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 16:29:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- 'Non-action is demoralization.' -:- Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 04:40:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ G -:- Correction: Parlokanand, not Padarthanand -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 17:15:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Mike -:- By your logic, premies should sue Maharaji -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 16:20:55 (GMT)
__ __ gErRy -:- how brian got so damn smart all of a sudden... -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 16:14:09 (GMT)
__ __ Marianne -:- EV and M will never sue -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 11:29:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ Happy -:- EV and M will never sue -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 12:38:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- not speaking of what would happen IF -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 14:33:04 (GMT)

toby -:- can't anybody sit down aand write a book -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 08:57:33 (GMT)
__ cq -:- ...and write a book? Are we sitting comfortably? -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 20:34:47 (GMT)
__ __ toby -:- ...and write a book? Are we sitting comfortably? -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 20:59:28 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- very good possibility! -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 09:26:42 (GMT)

Mel Bourne -:- Attention please - forum administration -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 01:43:07 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- truth is the best defence...... -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 14:55:35 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Well said Susan - hope Mel reads it (nt) -:- Thurs, Mar 16, 2000 at 20:37:18 (GMT)
__ hamzen -:- Grow up (nt) -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 03:17:53 (GMT)
__ Runamok -:- Attention please, Mel -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 02:56:35 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Very, very insightful, Run -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 03:41:02 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- I'd like to kick your guru's fat butt, too, Mel -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 02:21:32 (GMT)
__ __ Mel Bourne -:- I'd like to kick your guru's fat butt, too, Mel -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 05:53:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Come on, Mel, you can tell us! -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 18:06:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Admirable resilience and fortitude -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 14:21:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Admirable resilience and fortitude -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 02:54:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Have you gone mad, Dave? -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 17:51:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- oops! -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 17:56:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- That's an incredibly dumb post, Dave -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 16:47:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gErRy -:- It's a conspiracy, Dave -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 15:35:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- You illustrate my point nicely -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 16:55:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ gErRy -:- You illustrate my point nicely -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 18:00:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- I'll second that one...gerry -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 20:13:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Gerry -:- Yo Mike, thanks -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 17:35:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- How 'bout the bottom of the canyon? -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 18:15:16 (GMT)
__ Anarchist -:- Attention please - forum administration -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 02:18:21 (GMT)
__ __ Mel Bourne -:- Attention please - forum administration -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 02:02:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mike -:- My world ain't 'that' violent, Mel -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 13:51:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ SB -:- Attention please! Violence announced!!!! -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 12:05:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- You sound like a paranoid schizophrenic. -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 04:04:55 (GMT)
__ __ Mike -:- Only if certain people say it! -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 16:05:15 (GMT)

Jim -:- Give this girl a smart card! Now! -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 23:59:47 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Or maybe just a baby -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 01:05:43 (GMT)
__ __ Hal -:- This is sad,sad,sad. (nt) -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 07:31:18 (GMT)

JW -:- Here is How Joan Apter Does It -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 22:01:27 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Don't you think Rawat's also a prisoner -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 09:14:58 (GMT)
__ __ Runamok -:- Don't you think Rawat's also a prisoner -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 17:48:31 (GMT)
__ JW -:- Joan Apter's Resume -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 23:24:36 (GMT)
__ Helen -:- Here is How Joan Apter Does It -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 22:50:12 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Think of the new generation of premies -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 22:50:11 (GMT)
__ __ JW -:- Think of the new generation of premies -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 23:33:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- See the March 6 and 8 threads re Insights -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 02:10:44 (GMT)

JW -:- Michael Dettmers -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 21:23:40 (GMT)
__ JW -:- Also, 100 Million Dollars??? -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 21:30:44 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Where's the money? -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 22:53:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ TRI -:- Where's the money? -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 02:10:23 (GMT)

AJW -:- West Coast Latvian Club Meets. -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 18:07:46 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- I was there :) -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 21:26:43 (GMT)
__ __ Monmot -:- Moi Aussi :-))) -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 01:15:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ JW -:- You Had Some GREAT Stories -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 03:48:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Monmot -:- You Had Some GREAT Stories -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 00:58:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Mike -:- Hey Joe, I had to do that -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 16:20:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Hey Joe, I had to do that -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 23:27:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Let's do it again -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 11:19:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- Let's do it again Yes!!! -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 16:24:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- We did not get lost! It was Maharaji's Grace! -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 04:44:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- That is SO rude, Joe -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 04:07:41 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Did you check your wallet? -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 18:15:12 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Did you check your wallet? -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 12:54:41 (GMT)

la-ex -:- upcoming programs,smart cards, web site,pictures.. -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 18:03:26 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Search engine idea -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 18:50:54 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- I'm spreading confusion! -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 08:19:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- I'm spreading confusion! -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 11:30:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- You're a big hypocrite on this one, Dave -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 18:38:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Dgeri -:- Keep it up, Jim, and... -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 18:52:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- I got some premies' emails -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 14:07:33 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Help needed! -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 18:21:36 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- upcoming programs,smart cards, web site,pictures.. -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 18:11:24 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- 'Maharaji - revealing the truth' (nt) -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 20:28:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- That's an excellent double entendre, Nige -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 20:36:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- ex-premie, ex-maharaji, post-premie, post-M? (nt) -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 20:19:33 (GMT)

an ex -:- Spanish Forum Devotee -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 14:05:57 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Spanish Forum Devotee -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 14:31:56 (GMT)
__ __ SB -:- No it isn't pita bread... -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 21:03:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- New email address -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 01:39:51 (GMT)

G -:- Jossi Fresco - Prem Rawat's web Master? -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 01:47:09 (GMT)
__ Monmot -:- Jossi Fresco - Prem Rawat's web Master? -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 01:06:16 (GMT)
__ Cultbuster UK -:- Dunrite Group -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 16:49:17 (GMT)
__ bburke -:- Jossi Fresco - Prem Rawat's web Master? -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 06:30:47 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- Reality Communications, Arbor Communications -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 03:28:14 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- Jossi Fresco - holds copyright on Maharaji's site? -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 03:04:41 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- Jossi Fresco -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 14:15:01 (GMT)

Nigel -:- To Mirror: a simple question -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 23:05:33 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- What surrender actually is. Who's going to deny? -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 16:42:12 (GMT)
__ Robert DeNiro -:- Analyse This -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 00:19:18 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- Did you surrender? -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 14:36:47 (GMT)
__ __ Charlie -:- Surrender to this -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 09:59:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Amen, brother Charlie! (nt) -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 16:52:06 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Way to go, Bobby! -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 00:43:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ Robert DeNiro -:- Way to go, Bobby! -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 00:48:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Listen you berk... -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 01:09:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ nobody -:- Test (nt) -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 01:44:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Attention forum admin - vanishing post! -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 17:46:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Attention forum admin - vanishing post! -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 06:03:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- Sounds like Forum Admin edited the post out (nt) -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 06:54:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Sounds like Forum Admin edited the post out (nt) -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 05:57:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- and more to the point... -:- Thurs, Mar 16, 2000 at 09:50:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robert DiNero -:- and more to the point... -:- Thurs, Mar 16, 2000 at 13:54:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ bb -:- Listen you berk... -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 06:33:37 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Do I know you? -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 00:32:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ Nobody -:- test (nt) -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 00:44:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- What surrender means -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 01:35:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ nobody -:- test (nt) -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 01:47:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Why bother coming back? -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 12:51:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- The sound of one hand clapping..? -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 19:00:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Posts? What posts? You are getting sleepy, Nige -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 19:22:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Do I know you? -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 01:26:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ nobody -:- test (NT) -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 01:42:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ nigel -:- So maharaji's gift of surrender = nothing? -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 00:52:45 (GMT)

Hal -:- ADVERTISEMENT -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 09:23:59 (GMT)
__ Jackie -:- that's funny Hal! -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 01:02:18 (GMT)
__ a-z -:- ADVERTISEMENT -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 15:38:18 (GMT)

SB -:- What is this? Elan Vital-Design and manufacturing -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 01:31:35 (GMT)
__ G -:- I don't think there is a connection -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 04:25:56 (GMT)
__ __ SB -:- I don't think there is a connection either :( -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 04:50:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- Don't be sorry, if there were a connection he -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 05:11:40 (GMT)
__ a-z -:- What is this? Elan Vital-Design and manufacturing -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 02:46:04 (GMT)
__ __ SB -:- Elan Vital=Maharaji=he's rich... -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 19:24:02 (GMT)

Jim -:- Yes! Propagation, alright!! -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 22:21:22 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Yes! Propagation, alright!! -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 01:59:22 (GMT)

a-z -:- when are the knowledge reviews in america? -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 19:32:54 (GMT)
__ SB -:- National phone message # 818-889-0500 -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 04:38:55 (GMT)
__ dv -:- Miami? -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 21:27:33 (GMT)
__ __ a-z -:- Miami? -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 02:48:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ Anarchist -:- Get the rotten eggs and tomatoes ready -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 12:43:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Susan -:- What would be the most fun....as in how to derail -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 15:40:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ a-z -:- Get the rotten eggs and tomatoes ready -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 15:41:53 (GMT)

Jim -:- Sorry, Dogg, but it's truer than you can imagine -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 16:56:14 (GMT)
__ Deputy Dog -:- That's the last time I'm posting here hammered -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 20:02:45 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- You're right there Doggie -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 02:23:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- You're right there Doggie -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 02:28:23 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- What a typical, stupid premie response! -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 20:13:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- What a typical, stupid ex response! -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 23:36:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Quit talking like some time-warp buddhist -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 23:44:30 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- Sorry, Dogg, but it's truer than you can imagine -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 20:25:57 (GMT)


Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 10:11:57 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Forum administration - just for the record....
Message:
...I have sought independent legal advice on the situation that I put to Jim in his thread below (regarding his comment, that an attempt was made to locate the woman concerned by JB and that Jim and JB have a well documented extreme anti-maharaji history). They've seen copies of the thread and in their view a case could definitely be made regarding 'harrasment' of the woman concerned. They also advise that there is a possible issue regarding copyright infringement - that the management of this site leave themselves open to possible legal action because they have allowed contributors to make unauthorised publication of copyrighted materials from other web sites.

In plain language you, as site managers, could be sued for allowing BMJ (Big Mouth Jim) to cut and paste material from ELK to this site without their permission and then he uses it for his own malicious intent. You could also be culpable for allowing what maybe regarded as harrasment on your site.

This advice is under Australian law, but I have no doubt that if you were to check in the US, the situation would be similar. Could I respectfully suggest that you thoroughly check your legal position (using independent lawywers, of course!) Unless, through some misguided bravado, you are willing to accept the consequences for Jim's legal blunders.

Mel

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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 13:00:50 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Sue me, please.
Message:
Hi Mel,

I've been trying to get Elan Vital to sue me for ages. What I'd give for my day in court.

Unfortunately, it seems that Elan Vital is more likely end up in the dock than myself- sending a paedophile priest around the world, and covering up his nasty activities is a much worse offense than reproducing a letter you received on the internet.

Anth the Accused

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 21:21:56 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Read Mel's first post from 12/07/98 - Sincere?
Message:
Mel's concern 'for the forum's interests' started back HERE.
Some things are as true today as they ever were. One of these is 'Mel Bourne's' anonymous, yet sincere, desire that the ex-premie forum should not sully its good name in the eyes of the law.

Why he should be so concerned is a mystery since every thread he has started in the last eighteen months has been to raise some sort of objection to the content he reads here. Surely he would LOVE to see the site closed down - just as Maharaji would. And to this end, if there were any real opportunity to use the law, he would be surely doing it - and keeping quiet about it (just as unseen wheels are in motion to bring the full nasty details of the Jagdeo story to the waiting eyes of the world.)

Anyway, down below is (I think) Mel's first ever post to Forum III, dated July 12th 1998.

In the light of burgeoning evidence in re. Jagdeo case, it is interesting that Mel's righteous concern about the truth in the child abuse cases seems to have dimmed somewhat of late. Far more interesting now, it seems, is the psychic threat to a premie's well-being posed by a couple of light-hearted jibes at a post culled from the ELK site.

BTW, Mel: do you still believe there is 'no good reason to suppose' that Jagdeo will NOT sue..? Or would you now agree that - as Susan once put it - 'telling the truth is never libel'.

Posted by Mel Bourne, Sunday July 12, 1998:
>>>>

I am very concerned with the allegations that have been made on this Forum, especially the recent ones about Padarthanand and Jagdeo.

The main concern I have is about the possible legal consequences of the allegations and how they may impact on the forum. I will elaborate my concerns and you may wish to comment in reply:

1. While I appreciate it is possible that there maybe some basis for the allegations and obviously sympathise with the victims, I believe that great care should be taken by the 'publishers' (Brian?) in what appears on Forum pages. I think that the Forum is a public medium very much like the TV or newspapers. If some of the allegations made here were published in those other media, both the author and the publisher would undoubtedly be pursued in litigation for libel. If the internet is regarded as a public medium, would not the same libel laws apply? Obviously there may be legal quibbling about where authorship occurred (Australia (?) in KK's case) and where 'publication' occurred (US (?) with ex-premie.org /forum webmaster responsible?)

2. I believe that the specific allegations against the two above named could be considered libelous and it would be interesting to see if they contested them. After all they are very serious accusations. Would the victims/accusers be prepared to go into court to verify them? They may have to if the alleged perpetrators decided to sue them or the website. I think it would be very naïve to assume that they are NOT getting legal advice as to how to respond to these allegations, and unless there is some kind of evidence to back them up, the Forum may have to wear the legal consequences of defamation especially if the authors of these allegations prefer to maintain their anonymity.

3. This brings me to the issue of 'natural justice'. I have concerns generally about some of the material published here. Despite the candid opinions expressed by contributors to this Forum, the whole colour of the place sometimes seems takes on a decidedly 'Kangaroo Court' hue. That is, all sorts of accusations appear here which are based on rumour, innuendo and general gossip with, apparently, no back up evidence or substantiation whatsoever. I have no doubt that some of the contributors' claims here are honest and that there may be issues that need to be addressed and resolved, but care should be taken not to accuse people of things and name names unless the accuser is willing to back up with evidence in a court of law (either as a plaintiff, or as a result of being sued for libel). To be otherwise is obviously in breach of the concept of natural justice - that one is innocent until proven guilty (which as a lawyer, Jim, you would be well aware).
I think it would be in the Forum's best interest to promote this as a legal standard for it's own protection and advise contributors accordingly.

4. The danger of a Forum like this is that it is possible for a person for any reason to use this medium to anonymously make malicious, mischievous and personally damaging claims and accusations against which the accused cannot readily defend themselves or be able to seek legitimate redress. The proper resolution of these issues is obviously through some sort of mediation process or recourse to the legal system if this doesn't work.

Jim, I guess what I am trying to say is , as a lawyer you should be aware of what the legal risks are for contributors and the website . I believe that if Padarthanand or Jagdeo decided to sue (and there is no reason to assume that they won't), the issue would have nothing to do with M, EV or DLM, but would be of a personal nature; ie: someone defending their reputation from a personal accusation of alleged criminal behaviour.

Despite what KK was suggesting about 'the challenge' to premies a few days ago, I would suggest that the challenge that the forum really faces relates to ensuring it's legal responsibility in deciding whether to publish defamatory material. Contributors should be aware that the strong bias in their contributions may put them at legal risk of defamatory action and that they also put the future of the Forum at risk if it is found to have irresponsibly published the material.

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 19:07:18 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: 'Oy vey'
Message:
Mel you really need to get out more and mix with some looser people.

Wonder where you picked up that corset walk from!

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 17:37:51 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: 'Just for the record', my ass
Message:
1) Your 'legal advice' was probably worth exactly what you paid for it. What you might have done -- if you're not simply lying, something I wouldn't put past you in a moment. Your entire 'body of work' here has been based on bald-faced lies and jaw-dropping denial of the most obvious truths -- is ask some fellow cult member who's either a lawyer or works in the field if they thought stupid Janice Wilson was being harrassed. As I tried to explain to you in the thread below, there is a filter of reasonableness through which the courts wisely view all allegations of threats or harrassment. My ridiculing your fellow cult member by sayingf I'd like to squeeze her face and then reposting her brainless adulation of her 'Master' wouldn't come close to passing muster. The reasonableness filter thqt most people have -- but whihc you've painstakingly shown us you've long ago abandoned (i.e. by your denial of the inescapable inferences that Maharaji claimed to be God in the many quotes wherein he said he was just that) -- would catch my little comment in its entirety. Nothing would pass through. Nothing.

And JB's post about looking for Janice Wilson in the directory of the small town where his or her brother also lives would also fall far short of being reasonably interpreted as a threat of any kind. What it looks like is an idle response to the coincidence JB refers to regarding his or her brother. You'd have to be an idiot to miss that. But then, well, you are an idiot, aren't you? You come here like a flat-earther and we're supposed to take you seriously? Forget it, asshole. If you're expecting anyone here to accept your interpretation of what's fair and reasonable, after all the idiotic hoops you put us through regarding those quotes, you're crazy. I can say with comfort tht you hve no creidibility here (except perhaps with Dave who seems a little confused right now).

But let me not drift too far down the easy, easy river of ad hominem attacks on cult members like you. Let's get back to the facts: copyright infringement. Your 'legal advice' here was every bit as dumb as it was regarding 'harrassment'. Why didn't your lawyer friend discuss 'fair comment'with you? And if they did, why haven't you mentioned it? Either they're stupider than all get out or you're not giving us the whole story, Mel. Which is it?

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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 02:44:21 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: 'Just for the record', my ass
Message:
Jim

Thanks for your comments, as I said before, this is obviously the tack that you would take in a court. I'm sure that Ms Wilson's lawyers would be able to make a case that she was 'reasonably' in fear of bodily injury based on the comment you made, JB's attempts to locate her and given the long term hostility of you both against premies. Whether a judge would agree with her is what the trial process is all about. She wouldn't have to prove that you intended to beat her up, only that she is in fear of the possibility. There's ample evidence of your verbal and psychological violence exhibited on this site, Jim which probably wouldn't bode well for you, and that, along with the factors already mentioned could easily sway the case in her favour.

Anyway, there's no point in continuing this argument, the best decider of it, of course, would be a courtroom and to let a judge decide the merit of the case rather than you or I, but I guess that depends on action Ms Wilson decides to take (if any).

As for my credibility, well... I don't expect any here! So it's no loss to me and there is nothing to protect.

Mel

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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 03:09:20 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: What it comes down to, Mel, is this
Message:
I'm sure that Ms Wilson's lawyers would be able to make a case that she was 'reasonably' in fear of bodily injury based on the comment you made, JB's attempts to locate her and given the long term hostility of you both against premies.

You're wrong. But then your judgment's worthless, right? Again, you're the guy who's 'sure' Maharaji never claimed to be God even though he many times claimed to be God. Anyway, thanks for the laughs, asshole. It's been tons of fun seeing a stupid cult member make an ass out of himself again. Stay in touch, eh?

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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 07:16:03 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What it comes down to, Mel, is this
Message:
You're wrong. But then your judgment's worthless, right?

Jim, I never professed to make a 'judgement' on the issue, I merely made my points and finished up by saying....

...'the best decider of it, of course, would be a courtroom and to let a judge decide the merit of the case rather than you or I'

Would you say that I'm wrong about that too?

Mel

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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 15:19:47 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: DuuuuuuHHHHHHHH!!!!!
Message:
OF COURSE I'd say you're wrong about that! Even TRYING to take your 'case' seriously enough to speculate hypothetically is close to impossible. It'd be like wondering about MacDonald's charging me with theft for taking three extra ketchup packets for my burger at home (bought one this morning too, even though I didn't finish last night's take-out). No, what am I saying? It's even MORE far-fethced than that! It's senseless. So, yes, I'm saying that you're wrong about that. I'm saying more, though. I'm saying you're an idiot adn that you've proved it all over again with this latest foray into nonsense.
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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 11:30:46 (GMT)
From: Charlie
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: What it comes down to, Mel, is this
Message:
Mel,

have you ever seen Arther Miller's play 'The Crucible' about a witch hunt in Massachusetts a few years ago. You would fit well into the prosecution there.

This sort of thing could NEVER be entertained in a modern court of law, not unless that court was on the planet Moron in a different time and space dimension.

Who would possibly bring charges? The premie quoted from ELK? No way, she's far too busy giggling as she walks around drunk on meditation in her local park! In fact, come to think about it, she really does need to be woken up before she's taken away as a public nuisance herself. Maybe she'd thank you for doing that Mel. Would ELK bring charges? I very much doubt it and certainly not without the blessing of the master. What would he gain from court proceedings but vast bad publicity which would only accelerate his demise. And remember, whenever ELK is mentioned in public so is Jonathen Cainer. He is currently trying to establish himself with a new employer at the moment and certainly wouldn't appreciate the agro. It strikes me that if any premie ever does move to close down Ex-Premie.org it will also be suicide for the cult itself as the can of worms empties out. There won't be a need for the website then.

Anyway, you would have to prove without reasonable doubt that Miss Giggly was actually in danger from the actions of a person posting here. Well that would be totally laughable judging from previous incidents ocurring on the forum. There is no evidence of anyone ever acting on the words they have posted to this forum, no matter how aggresive. Just shimmy through the archives to see that by comparison there has been some REAL battles that have taken place between exes. There's been much worse defamation of character accompanied with really violent screams of abuse but did it ever stir anyone to action? To actually buy a ticket and get on a bus to the airport to the plane, to travel the world to find the person who made whatever allegations and 'squeeze their face'? To suggest such a thing is insane Mel. The record shows that the only person that this website wants to nail is your guru. That's all that frightens you Mel, you have no interest in Ms. Giggly's well being. For that matter neither does your guru have any interest in her or YOU.

At the risk of entertaining your crappy idea for a moment here is my view on THAT post and it's followup. Both were suggesting that a person with Ms Wilson's mentality needs waking up, nothing more. On no account could I have interpreted that anyone wanted to give her a beating or hurt her in any way. Nobody else added any other act of violence or punishment they would like to see doled out to the premie in that thread, it was just a wake up call to any premie reading THIS site. It seems that only you Mel (and your legal eagle) can read these inferences into the post.

BTW, as far as I can remember the worst threats made on Forum IV were from Catweasel who actually did threaten Jim physically. Catweasel insinuated that he was going to beat Jim up when visiting Vancouver and also possibly made further posts to him under the names Mr. Smith and Mr. Wesson. He (she) was rightly blocked. You are also a fucking bothersome Aussie fly and it wouldn't surprise me if you end up like your sister Catweasel.

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 15:00:27 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Just for the record, Mel.... NO!
Message:
Mel: You and your lawyer friend(?) are quite incorrect. 'Quoting' is not copyright infringement. Jim and others have made it quite clear where the material came from and they are commenting on the content. If what you said were true, then 'unsolicited' commentary and quotes taken from books for review purposes (without the author's permission) would be copyright ingfringement...... they are not. Witness negative book reviews (with copious quotes taken from the book)..... I'm sure, given that scenario, the author would sue if he/she could.... THEY CAN'T! A point could be made for copyright infringement if the this copied the ENTIRE ELK site and planted it here. Taking 'excerpts' has no legal standing as copyright infringement, especially when the source of the material is clearly indicated!

If that material were password protected to offer a reasonable protection against public access, then there would be laws to cover it. It is not password protected..... It is free for public consumption AND comment! I'm sure some legal beagles here could get quite a bit more specific about this issue, but why bother..... YOU ARE WORNG, AGAIN! And, btw, read US law before you comment on its contents. As for Australia, hey you guys don't even 'recognize' a home-invasion as a specific crime (and therefore, not reported as a crime, violent or otherwise). I've been watching the OZ legal system wrangling with that one for quite awhile...... too funny!

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 18:37:59 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Mike
Subject: Heaven forbid the Lard ever gets to make the law!
Message:
Thanks for pointing out the copyright error, Mike. At least it saved me the trouble:-)

Far be it for me to accuse anyone of lying but it was this point especially that made me doubt whether Mel really had 'sought out' any hard legal facts.

He could walk into any university department, newspaper office, city library or publishing house anywhere in the world, stand by the photocopier for about an hour and lose count of the reams of copyright materials that are reproduced for various educational / political commentary / review purposes. And there certainly isn't a lawyer in the world who would take up the ludicrous case that Mel is trying to argue here.

As you point out, the extract would have to be large in the first place. In the UK, this would constitute more than one book chapter or 10% of an average sized published work of, I think, 100,000 words - whichever is larger.

(Alternatively the source material is reproduced without citation, the material is claimed as the work of another author or the materials are sold on for profit.)

The reproduction, criticism or lampooning of a handful of paragraphs is the life-blood of healthy debate in a free society. Mel should know this if he reads books or other publications of any substance.

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 19:12:09 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: You've asked an excellent question too, Nigel
Message:
Nigel: Jeez, does Mel think we are really THAT stupid? Well, I guess his statements (thinly veiled threats of legal action) on the subject answer THAT question!

Your statement, '...Mel should know this if he reads books or other publications of any substance....' DOES bring up another obvious question, don't you think? he he he :-)

I think his idea of substantial would be articles in 'And It Is Divine!' Maybe you'd better clarify your position on what constitutes 'substantial reading' before he attempts to interject his opinion in this part of the thread.... BWAH HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA..... sorry, couldn't help myself. I'm feeling really obnoxious today..... premies bring out my absolute best characteristics, doncha know.... :-)

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 12:43:18 (GMT)
From: TRI
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Australian Law - What a Farce
Message:
Hey Mel,

No wonder Rotwat loves Australia.

Konrad Kalejs given refuge again
Australia a 'safe haven' for Nazi war criminals
By Mike Head
17 January 2000

The Australian government last week welcomed back a known Nazi war criminal and ensured that he received VIP treatment on arrival.

Konrad Kalejs, now an 86-year-old real estate millionaire, is a former commander of a Latvian killing unit that murdered at least 30,000 Jews, Gypsies and communists between 1941 and 1945. Before he was allowed to leave Britain to avoid deportation on January 5, both he and the British Labour government knew that he would be protected in Australia, where he was given refuge in 1950 and citizenship in 1957.

Reporters had asked Australia's Justice Minister, Senator Amanda Vanstone, on January 3 whether he would be welcome. “Would you expect a situation where any Australian citizen would not be?” she replied.

Vanstone's comment provoked considerable disgust. A death camp survivor, Melbourne academic Harry Redner, said the country was becoming a “haven for war criminals”. Jeremy Jones of the Executive Council for Australian Jewry said: “Criminals involved in some of the most horrendous activities of the last century go peacefully to sleep in Australia, believing this country is not interested in bringing them to justice.”

When Kalejs arrived at Melbourne airport on January 7, students and other protestors gathered to denounce his return. Security officers, however, escorted him off Singapore Airlines flight SQ-217 and through the terminal, allowing him to flee via a rear valet parking exit. Police prevented reporters and photographers from following his car as it left the terminal, accompanied by a police vehicle.

The authorities seemed anxious to prevent the scenes that surrounded Kalejs' last sojourn in Australia. When he lived in a Latvian retirement village in Wantirna, a Melbourne suburb, for several months in 1998, protestors dogged him and swastikas were daubed on the village's walls. He escaped to a luxury retirement home in Britain, until being discovered by an American TV documentary program, Buried Secrets.

On January 8 a grateful Kalejs praised the Howard government. “I have the biggest, greatest respect for the Australian government,” he declared in an interview on Special Broadcasting Services (SBS), the government's migrant community radio network. Kalejs said he had a letter from Prime Minister John Howard informing him that there was no evidence to prosecute him for alleged war crimes.

The fact that Kalejs gave the interview—which SBS duly broadcast in full—expressed his confidence in continued official protection. In the interview he admitted for the first time that he had commanded troops from the notorious Arajs Kommando, dispensing with his earlier claims that he had spent the war years as a farm labourer or university student. For the first time as well he confessed to having met Victor Arajs, the unit's commander, who was tried in Germany in 1980 for war crimes and sentenced to life imprisonment.

A 1942 picture of a steely-eyed 29-year-old Kalejs in the uniform of an SS officer appeared on the front pages of some Australian newspapers on January 10. “Final proof—This is Konrad Kalejs wearing the uniform of an officer in Adolf Hitler's death squad” said the headline in the Sydney Daily Telegraph. The photograph had been taken from London's The Mail on Sunday newspaper, which obtained it from Latvian archives.

Kalejs' portrait was originally published in the Latvian Nazi newsletter Laikmets, with an article entitled “Latvian SS troops attack”. Based on an interview with Visrleitnants Konrad Kalejs, the article glorified the destruction of three Russian villages. “We are the first to get through the village and we can see the Communists running, crawling through the snow, and now our job is very easy,” Kalejs boasted. “In the next village the story is the same ... Behind lie smoking ruins and many dead enemy soldiers.”

As this material appeared in the Australian media, the acting Australian Prime Minister, John Anderson, stepped up the government's defence of Kalejs. Previous inquiries had not found sufficient evidence to prosecute Kalejs, he said, and therefore the man was entitled to the presumption of innocence. He challenged those calling for Kalejs' arrest to produce new evidence.

Over the next few days further evidence emerged from Latvia. In 1987 an ex-member of the Kommando, Rudolf Soms, gave Latvian authorities a statement in which he described how Lieutenant Kalejs led an attack on Sannaki (one of the three Russian villages Kalejs earlier boasted of destroying), “burnt it down and annihilated the inhabitants”. Another former soldier, Karlis Rozkalns, also gave a 1987 statement, saying: “All the inhabitants (of Sannaki) had been driven into one building and the building had been burnt down”.

Both witnesses have since died, as have at least three others who testified of their involvement as guards at Salaspils under Kalejs. On the basis of the Latvian evidence, Canadian authorities deported Kalejs after a 10-month inquiry in 1997, concluding that he “was assisting in the operation of a slave labour camp, where brutality was intrinsic to its purpose. Kalejs is accountable for what happened at Salaspils.”

More incriminating evidence also surfaced from the US, where Kalejs prospered as a Florida developer for 35 years—from 1959 to 1994—before finally being deported. In a 1988 judgment, immigration judge Anthony Petrone ruled that there was “clear, convincing and unequivocal evidence” that Kalejs was a member of the Kommando and had “assisted and participated” in acts of persecution “in association with the Nazi military and civil authorities”. Petrone said the evidence supported allegations of the “murder of thousands of Jews in the forests surrounding Riga”.

The case against Kalejs included the testimony of three survivors of the Salaspils camp: Alfred Winter, Kurt Servos and Ernest Ilberg, documenting the inhuman conditions at the camp, including hundreds of executions by shooting and hanging, as well as forced labour, malnutrition and disease.

The judge said the US government had proven its case that Kalejs was:

* a member of the Kommando during most of 1942, when villages were burnt and civilians were killed;

* commander of a guard unit at a concentration camp for Latvian Jews in Porkhov, where members of his company participated in the execution of between 20 and 30 Gypsies in early 1943;

* commander of an exterior guard unit at the Salaspils and Sauriesi forced labour camps, where Jews and political prisoners were subjected to “incarceration, forced labour and brutal treatment” from late 1943 to May 1945.

Among the exhibits in the case were certificates—one signed by Viktor Arajs—detailing Kalejs' membership of the Arajs Kommando. In one note, dated May 15, 1943, Kalejs wrote: “I hereby inform you that I am in the service of the Commander of the Security Police and SD of Latvia—in the Latvian Security Section as a company commander”.

The Australian authorities have had access to this US information for more than a decade. It proves that Kalejs was allowed to emigrate to Australia in 1950 and later given citizenship on the basis of lies—his application forms listed his wartime occupation as farm labourer. Yet both the Howard government and the Labor Party Opposition still insist that Kalejs has every right to remain free in Australia unless some new evidence comes to light. The government refuses to consider retrospective legislation to strip Kalejs of his citizenship, and Labor backs this stance.

A history of cover-up

This is the third time that Kalejs has been given refuge in Australia after deportation overseas. The first instance was in 1994, following his removal from the US. After a brief stay, pressure from Jewish groups and anti-Nazi activists caused him to flee to Canada, to be deported from there in 1997. In early 1998, amid protests, Prime Minister Howard personally issued a statement defending the government's decision to take no action against Kalejs, on the grounds that a Federal Police review of his files had failed to produce adequate evidence for a prosecution.

In fact, the only probe into Kalejs and other Nazi war criminals living in Australia, conducted by the federal government's Special Investigations Unit (SIU), was controversially shut down by the previous Keating Labor government in 1992, with the support of Howard's Liberal-National Party. At the time it had 57 cases unresolved and had just applied to send investigators to Latvia to obtain the testimony needed to prosecute another Nazi, Karlis Ozols, one of Kalejs' associates. “The government pulled the pin,” commented Robert Greenwood QC, who headed the SIU. According to the SIU's official historian, Professor Konrad Kwiet, the SIU had gathered “five or six volumes” of material against Kalejs.

The SIU had been established in 1987, largely in response to the public outcry generated by Nazis in Australia, an Australian Broadcasting Corporation radio program. The program revealed that Australian authorities had allowed between 150 and 200 Nazi collaborators into the country in the late 1940s and 1950s and that a number, including Kalejs, had occupied influential posts in displaced persons camps and migrant centres.

In these positions, Kalejs and others were able to facilitate the entry of other fascists into the country. In his thoroughly-documented 1989 book Sanctuary! Nazi Fugitives in Australia, one of the producers of the ABC series, Mark Aarons, revealed that Kalejs was recruited by the immigration authorities at the largest Australian migrant barracks, the Bonegilla Immigration and Reception Centre near Albury.

“For three years after his arrival in Australia, Kalejs occupied the important position of documentation and processing clerk at the Bonegilla camp. In this position he was well placed to help other ex-Nazis, handling many sensitive documents, especially the issuing of identity cards to other migrants who had no papers.”

In 1987 the Hawke Labor government refused to hold a Royal Commission or any other sort of public inquiry into the material unearthed by Aarons and the ABC. Instead it asked Andrew Menzies QC, a former senior official of the federal Attorney-General's Department, to conduct a behind-closed-doors review of official files. Six months later, Menzies' report concluded that between July 1947 and December 1951: “It is more likely than not that a significant number of persons who committed serious war crimes in World War II have entered Australia”. Menzies gave the government the names of 70 suspects.

By the end of 1988 the SIU, set up on Menzies' recommendation, had extended the list to 500. Yet when the SIU was shut down, just four years later, it had only initiated prosecutions in three cases. A combination of severe financial restrictions, weak legislation and the deaths of elderly eye-witnesses meant that of the three cases, one was dismissed by the Director of Public Prosecutions, one was abandoned because of the accused's ill-health, and one resulted in an acquittal.

Parallel processes occurred in the US, Britain and Canada. They were, with Australia, among the main destinations of Nazi collaborators from Eastern Europe after World War II. In the US, Congressional hearings in the 1970s led to the establishment of the Office of Special Investigations in 1979. It examined hundreds of cases, leading to some deportations of alleged Nazis. Public pressure in Canada led to a 1987 Commission of Enquiry report that reached similar conclusions to the Australian Menzies report. The British Labour government headed off agitation for a public inquiry by setting up an investigation headed by a former Director of Public Prosecutions who “uncovered some 250 possible cases of war criminals living in Britain”.

Yet in all these jurisdictions, few Nazis were prosecuted. Some, like Kalejs, were deported, but without trials that could have provided public forums for witnesses and documents to come forward or be subpoenaed. By then, some 40 years after the mass executions, massacres and torture, the authorities were able to argue that few witnesses would have survived.

The real reasons for this official reticence were, however, hinted at when the British All-Party Parliamentary War Crimes Group reported in 1988. It found evidence in official records showing that “the British government opened its doors and closed its eyes to the immigration of thousands of alleged war criminals” because it wanted to “recruit scientists, sources of intelligence and labourers for its mines and farms”.

A wider pattern

A closer examination of the Kalejs case shows that his escape to Australia in 1950 and subsequent employment by the immigration service was part of a wider political pattern. Particularly after the onset of the Cold War in 1947, and facing rising working class militancy at home, the Western powers provided safe haven for Eastern European fascists via the International Refugee Organisation. In return, these ex-Nazis worked as anti-communist intelligence and immigration agents, specialising in the location, official harassment and deportation of migrant socialists and working class militants.

Among Kalejs' colleagues at Bonegilla was Brana Ivanovic, employed as a Block Supervisor. When in 1950 the Yugoslav government requested his extradition as a war criminal, the Australian government refused to hand him over. The Australian intelligence agency, then called the Commonwealth Investigation Service (CIS), informed the government that Ivanovic had admitted being the Understate Secretary for Transport and Communication in the Nazi-controlled Serbian administration of Milan Nedic from May 1942 to the end of 1944. The CIS report emphasised that Ivanovic “is very anti-communist” and “claims to have worked with the Intelligence Services of England and America while domiciled in Austria”.

Last week Greenwood, the former head of SUI, stated that many alleged ex-Nazis were used by ASIO to spy on immigrant communities. “Quite a few of these people worked for ASIO—we know that,” he said. “ASIO had activity files on a significant number of the people I investigated.”

Former fascist leaders also helped supervise mass labour forces on construction projects such as the Australian Snowy Mountains hydro-electricity and irrigation project. In some cases, they later became prominent scientists, business figures and politicians. For example, Ljenko Urbancic, a Slovenian Nazi collaborator, was protected by the British authorities from Yugoslav government requests for his extradition in 1946. Released from British custody in May 1948, he was accepted for migration under Australia's Displaced Persons scheme just 18 months later. By the mid-1970s, he was a major force in the ruling Liberal Party, heading the Liberal Ethnic Council in New South Wales and controlling one-third of the votes in the party's state council.

Although Urbancic made his way up through the Liberal Party, it was the post-war Labor Party government that originally established the Australian safe haven for Nazi fugitives. Immigration Minister, Arthur Calwell, received bitter complaints from working class refugees—who included liberated slave labourers—that they had discovered Nazis on their refugee ships and in their migrant camps. When the CIS reported to him that some Displaced Persons were indeed former SS men, he described it as “a farrago of nonsense”. His Head of Department wrote to the CIS instructing it that SS tattoos, or the existence of scars where they had been erased, were not grounds for rejecting asylum-seekers. Moreover, “hasty conclusions as to the security risk of certain classes of migrants ... do much harm not only to worthy people but to our immigration plans”.

Calwell was an ardent champion of Labor's “White Australia” immigration policy. Labor's leaders were determined to populate the continent with European stock, particularly those who would undertake or supervise arduous labour in remote locations. Calwell's slogan was “populate or perish”—deliberately invoking fears of an Asian invasion. He was also a hardened anti-communist who simultaneously refused entry to mainly left-wing refugees from the Franco fascist dictatorship in Spain.

The Labor government's national requirements dovetailed with a sharp shift in post-war policy in Britain and the US with the advent of the Cold War. After initially placing prominent Nazis and their leading collaborators on trial for their crimes, the victorious Allies changed course from 1947. Anti-communists and anti-Semites who had experience in Nazi-backed regimes became crucial agents in the struggle against both the Soviet bloc and the resurgent working class.

On July 13, 1948 the British Labour government wrote to all member states of the British Commonwealth proposing to cease most trials of alleged war criminals in its zone of Germany by August 31, after which no new trials would commence. It stated that “future political developments in Germany” made it “necessary to dispose of the past as soon as possible”.

This, in essence, has remained the policy of Western governments and their intelligence services since. Whatever lip service is paid to hunting down war criminals, their record of service became too valuable—and incriminating—to be laid bare in criminal prosecutions.

In providing sanctuary to Kalejs, the Australian government has enjoyed the support of the media owners. While some prominence has been given to the furore surrounding his return, the newspaper editorials have been unwavering. Thus, according to the Sydney Morning Herald, Justice Minister Vanstone “hit all the right buttons” in insisting that Kalejs had the right to remain free in Australia. “Unless and until it can be proved otherwise, he is entitled to be treated as an innocent man.” Not to do so, would be to subject Kalejs to “the same contempt for the rule of law that he himself is accused of demonstrating in the past”.

This “rule of law” is a euphemism for a political and legal system that formally abhors the methods of fascist dictatorship but secretly employs the services of ex-Nazis, grants them citizenship, enacts legislation that effectively protects them and waits for the surviving witnesses to their crimes to die off.

In an effort to defuse the issue, Senator Vanstone has suggested that recent amendments to the War Crimes Act make it easier for Latvia to request Kalejs' extradition. But the leaders of the current Latvian government have taken a similar stance to their Australian counterparts, saying that eye-witnesses no longer exist to sustain a prosecution.

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 11:41:33 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Forum administration - just for the record....
Message:
You're right, there is a clear copyright infringement with the copying and pasting of stuff from the ELK site to this one without having their permission. That's absolutely without doubt.

I have been guilty of the same and have copied pictures from Satpal's site onto my own. Perhaps he doesn't know. But I am sure that ELK site webmasters do know that their copyright has been infringed.

It is up to them to do something about this.

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 16:53:18 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: God, Dave, you're really batting 0 today
Message:
I feel like I've woken up and gone to Dummyville. What's wrong with you, Dave? 'Clear copyright infringement' my ass. People can cut and paste all sorts of things from anywhere for editorial comment. Oh, but I guess you were contributing something positive there, huh? What a joke.
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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 11:14:29 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Too funny
Message:
...I have sought independent legal advice

You left out the word 'competent', but I'm hoping that goes without saying. Hopefully, you have sought legal advice from someone who has had enough experience with the law to explain to you the concept of legal standing before they begin charging you for their advice.

In plain language you, as site managers, could be sued for allowing BMJ (Big Mouth Jim) to cut and paste material from ELK to this site without their permission and then he uses it for his own malicious intent. You could also be culpable for allowing what maybe regarded as harrasment on your site.

Your concern for the welfare of the anonymous Forum Administration is touching. However, they do not administer a site. They administer a forum hosted by, and contained on, a site. (That's legal jargon, BTW. No charge.)

I, on the other hand, administer a web site - www.ex-premie.org - which, if you examine the URL to the forum managed by the Forum Administration, you will possibly note is the exact same site that hosts the forum that you just can't seem to stop reading. (Perhaps you should have 'sought' counseling to deal with your addiction.)

Your great concern regarding Jim's 'malicious intent' in quoting the garbage copywrited by ELK is only exceeded by your own malicious intent in attempting to use legal threats to help you deal with your two problems:

  • obsessive reading of what you consider to be offensive content on this site and in this forum, and
  • your inability to stand as your own man in life without having to have a Master whose feet you publicly kiss in every post.

Jim's posts are clearly labeled as being from Jim. Don't read them if you find them to be offensive.

This forum (and its host site) are also clearly labeled as being about Maharaji. Don't read any of the content if you find it offensive.

Prempal Rawat (aka Maharaji) knows better than to drum up the spotlight of press attention by initiating petty suits against this site. Perhaps you still have much to learn from your Master.

As far as this site's administrator is concerned, Maharaji can go fuck himself. And then you can follow your Master's example yourself.

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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 01:47:38 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Maybe not so funny for you, Brian
Message:
Bravo, bravo

Fine words based on a misguided self confidence (or should I say delusion) but I would caution prudence.

Why do you assume that it would be Maharaji or EV that would sue. He may not need to because there is ample evidence through the archives of the forum that lots of individual premies have been maligned, humiliated, emabarrassed, threatened and otherwise hurt, so that work could be left to lesser mortals! Your no stranger to writs it would seem, and I understand that you've backed off before!

Think about it, Brian, your arse, or whoevers arse is responsible for the content published on the Forum is the one ultimately on the line, so don't just listen to your own ex-premie hacks, get unbiased and independent legal advice to cover it. The only comment from one of the better legal minds on the forum is that 'Mahahraji would never sue' , no refutation of the points that I've raised, indeed, there seems to be an undercurrent of agreement with my points, despite some of the usual name calling and bluster.

I'm not threatening to sue you so and to the best of my knowledge no one else is either, and I can't help it if you interpret my comments in a rather paranoid way (I probably would myself if I was in your situation), but you delude yourself if you think that premies are going continue to put up with the kind of material published by Jim and allowed by you. Take heed! Good luck!

Mel

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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 16:09:08 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: There is NO 'situation,' you moron!
Message:
Mel: I've heard some idiotic things before but this takes the cake, '....I can't help it if you interpret my comments in a rather paranoid way (I probably would myself if I was in your situation), but you delude yourself if you think that premies are going continue to put up with the kind of material published by Jim and allowed by you. Take heed!...'

Even with ALL of the comments from legal people that posted commentary to the contrary, you STILL insist that you have a legal point to make. Are you capable of reading or are you just plain stupid? Your argument has NO legal standing, YOU are NOT a lawyer nor have you even been in the law enforcment community or an officer of the court. How do I know this? You would have said so if you ever were..... to try to add weight to your pathetic attempt to intimidate people here, moron!

Well, let's add another coffin-nail to your stupid argument: The individual premies that post material to a public place (e.g. the ELK website) GIVE UP their individual copyright. The copyright for ALL material on that site belongs to THAT site.... PERIOD! So, NO the individual premie whose material was posted there, by them, cannot sue anyone for a copyright violation! Only the owners of the site could and they wouldn't even try because taking SITE-OWNED excerpts and stating the source of those excerpts IS NOT a copyright violation. THAT has been made abundantly clear by people who understand the subject. I'll even give you an example: In any of your little reports you wrote in high school or college, did you use citations from other documents? Did you state where they came from? MORE IMPORTANTLY, DID YOU ASK FOR WRITTEN PERMISSION FROM THE AUTHOR TO CITE HIS MATERIAL? The answer to the last question is a resounding NO, stupid! NO, you didn't get written permission to use the author's material. Is that a copyright violation? NO, STUPID, it isn't! Get it? Your argument is without merit, dead, deceased, without life, totally moronic..... UNDERSTAND-E-VOUS? COMPRENDE?

You, beyond the shadow of any 'reasonable' doubt, are the most moronic individual I've ever had the misfortune to read. Even catmeezles is a step ahead of you because he/she is just plain hostile and ADMITS it! He/she doesn't like us and says so, repeatedly. He/she certainly doesn't try to hide their disdain for this site behind some rediculously thin veil of 'caring!' You are so transparent, Mel...... and I'll bet you think you are being SO clever, don't you? Idiot!

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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 10:56:01 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: No, just boring beyond belief
Message:
Look, Mel. I don't know you and I have nothing against you personally. But I've seen this thread before plenty of times on the forum. It's the premie flip-side of the ex-premie class action suit fantasy that pops up just as mindlessly, and just as anonymously as yours did. Both brain-dead ideas usually require that 'someone else' be the instigator.

For you to pretend to be worried for my welfare is nothing more than tap-dancing away from a position you took in a thread that you started. I have put the floorplans to Maharaji's house online for the world to see. I'm sure that pissed him off. I've called him a fraud, an asshole, etc, very publicly. The result - nada. I wasn't turned into a frog - or a defendant. The bottom line is that assholes and frauds can't claim to be damaged by the public label. It's called 'truth in packaging'.

You are the one who has claimed to have consulted an attorney to see if you could sue. Now you say that isn't something that you would do. What a surprise.

I have no interest in consulting an attorney to see how to best protect myself against your personal fantasies. Or against Maharaji's.

Ex-premie.org presents the truth about Maharaji. And contains links to his sites to allow readers to judge for themselves. The first link on the homepage here is to the flushing toilet bowl splash screen on www.maharaji.org. It's the only truthful 'statement' on that site - other than the legal mumbo-jumbo page that the Lord needs to cover his own large arse. His sites contain no mention of or links to this site. There is only one viewpoint allowed in MaharajiLand - Maharaji's.

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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 14:43:27 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: I LOVED that post! I am going to read it over!
Message:
very well said Brian. If only he would hear you.
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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 03:51:55 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: By your logic, premies should sue Maharaji
Message:
You say '...lots of individual premies have been maligned, humiliated, emabarrassed, threatened and otherwise hurt...'

True, by Maharaji.

He may not need to sue, he may need get legal aid.

The 'rotten vegetables' satsang (just one example) constitutes far more of a perceived threat than 'I want to squeeze her face -- hard.' etc., especially considering that the statements made here are not threats.

First, it is totally stupid to think that Jim has any intention of squeezing whats her name's face, he doesn't even know her. Even if he did it wouldn't hurt her. (Unless he's Superman and doesn't know his own strength. I kind of doubt it.)

And notice the text of 'I want to slap her -- silly' which is 'I want to try to wake her up to realize what a giggly stupor she is living in.' That is all that 'Dr. Crane' meant, idiot. Again, the poster doesn't even know her. If this premie were to feel threatened I would recommend psychiatric treatment. Actually, I would anyway.

Suppose a kid says to their sibling 'I'm gonna kill you.' Do they mean it? Of course not. Do you think THAT would go to court?

Now consider the 'rotten vegetables' satsang (and other threats made by 'Maharaji' aka 'Guru Maharaj Ji'). He was basically saying to brainwashed premies - who believed him - that if they stopped worshipping him, they would GO TO LIVING HELL. Consider the threats that were made by 'Guru Maharaj Ji' regarding what would happen to a premie if they left the ashram. Also what would happen to an 'Initiator' if they 'fell'. Keep it mind that brainwashed premies, like yourself, believe that 'Maharaji' has supernatural powers. For him to say these kinds of things is indeed a perceived threat.

Also may I remind you of Jagdeo, Padarthanand, and Fakiranand.

I have heard reports of Maharaji himself physically hurting premies. I'll add one report to those already mentioned. It was told to me, I believe from an Initiator, that a couple of PAMs went and had a good time somewhere, like at a beach or something. When they got back, they saw M and felt guilty. M punched one of them in the stomach and said 'That's for feeling guilty'. Very strange, eh?

Has Maharaji maligned, humiliated, and embarrassed individual premies? Yes indeed, sometimes in front of thousands of other premies.

I - and I'm sure other people also - have considered suing M.

Well, Mel, do you want to continue this stupid game of yours?

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Date: Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 07:12:04 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: G
Subject: By your logic, premies should sue Maharaji
Message:
Ditto all I've said and so many others for too long, and then some. Thanks for your work.

But we all know that's a waste of our time in this world, do we, or dont't we?

Or you (collectively) would have done that already?

You're good G. Join forces with Jim +, if there's something that can be done eventually, for the good of all concerned, which is the whole.

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Date: Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 16:29:22 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: I'm not a lawyer so I don't know but I'll do what
Message:
I can on the web. From what I've seen, there are other gurus around with a lot more influence than Rawat. So it's not just a matter of exposing his faults.

Someone at work told me there is a guy claiming to be God - in the sense of being like Buddha - in Taiwan. He has plastic flowers manufactured which he supposedly 'blesses'. People pay a LOT of money for these trinkets. He's got many followers, including people in high positions of political power.

One thing that is not a waste of time is protecting our environment. I have an urge to do more about it, I haven't acted enough, maybe partially because Rawat doesn't encourage action (I'm a recent ex). It's ironic that so many fundamentalist religious zealots are not into environmental protection, they even talk against it. You would think that, believing in God, they would not want it destroyed. Maharaji occasionally gave lip service to the issue, talking about how 'Mankind is destroying the same branch he's sitting on.' But that was just one of many negative, hypocritical comments about 'the world'. He once said 'I'm not an environmentalist.' No kidding, considering his plane and excessive consumption.

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Date: Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 04:40:04 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: G
Subject: 'Non-action is demoralization.'
Message:
Hi G!

This thread is about to get lopped, but I just noticed your post - I'll take a chance that you catch this before it does.

Yes, I'm beginning to get the idea about what work is being done here. Also really beginning to understand why many people here are so tired of any mention of the word 'God.' it does tend to keep some of the key issues obscure, and contribute to many people's confusion, as well as increase the potential for them to fall for m or someone like him.

You wrote:
One thing that is not a waste of time is protecting our environment. I have an urge to do
more about it, I haven't acted enough, maybe partially because Rawat doesn't encourage
action (I'm a recent ex). It's ironic that so many fundamentalist religious zealots are not
into environmental protection, they even talk against it. You would think that, believing
in God, they would not want it destroyed. Maharaji occasionally gave lip service to the
issue, talking about how 'Mankind is destroying the same branch he's sitting on.' But that
was just one of many negative, hypocritical comments about 'the world'. He once said 'I'm not an environmentalist.' No kidding, considering his plane and excessive consumption.

Couldn't agree with you more on this. And I really can't believe that he discourages action to such an extreme degree. Did you see that long thread on exercise a while ago? I heard a quote on the radio (a David Suzuki program) that you may have read already in one of my posts here, but I put it again in the 'subject.' If I remember correctly it was from an environmentalist. It's interesting to realize that concerns about the environment came up long ago. Maybe this is a form of 'practical' clairvoyance. Ibsen wrote a play about industrial pollution called, ironically of course, 'An Enemy of the People.' m seems to propagate a form of mental/spiritual pollution. I researched Ibsen a bit once for a highschool lit course I taught, and found some fascinating quotes. I'll share a few with you.

'And what is it, then, that I have lived through and that has inspired me? The range has been wide. In part, I have been inspired by something I felt on rare occasions and only in my best moments stirring within me, vividly alive, great and beautiful. I have been inspired by this because I wanted to confront it and make it part of myself. But I have also been inspired by the opposite, by what appears on introspection as the dregs and sediment of one's nature. Writing has in this case been to me like a bath from which I have risen feeling cleaner, healthier, and freer.'

(on) . . .his lack of interest in 'special revolutions, revolutions in externals, in the political sphere . . . . What is really wanted,' he declared, 'is a revolution of the spirit of man.'

Don't tell anyone, but he's on my personal (Bucke) list too.

Did you ever get any feedback on your question about 'ex-cult?' You mention that you are a recent ex. Can I ask how long you were a premie? It doesn't seem to be as much of a problem for you, as for some others, to use the the old fashioned term 'God' or 'whatever it is,' so I'm a bit curious.

I've got to get to bed. I have this intense 4 day work week, and I tend to sometimes go into overdrive before I finally crash, like I did last night.

Stonor

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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 17:15:23 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Correction: Parlokanand, not Padarthanand
Message:
I meant to say:

Also may I remind you of Jagdeo, Parlokanand, and Fakiranand.

not

Also may I remind you of Jagdeo, Padarthanand, and Fakiranand.

Parlokanand allegedly molested little boys. I don't know if it is true. He's the guy who showed me the techniques. He didn't make me go to Guru Puja first. Who knows, maybe he liked the way I looked (shudder). Guru Puja means 'worship of the Guru'.

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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 16:20:55 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: G
Subject: By your logic, premies should sue Maharaji
Message:
G: Thanks for pointing out the fact that M has, indeed, personally ASSAULTED someone. That story has been around for a long, long time and was told by several INITIATORS (M's direct agents). Intentionally punching someone in the stomach is ASSAULT..... PERIOD!

Witness the hockey player in Canada that may be prosecuted for high-sticking and INTENTIONALLY hitting another player (in the head) with his hockey-stick while playing the game! Just because he was 'playing the game' didn't excuse his ASSAULT while on the ice.

MEL: See the difference...... M's misdeed was a crime. Taking excerpts for commentary isn't..... GET IT?????? Using a euphemism isn't a crime..... GET IT????? If you want to threaten legal action, why don't you write M and 'warn' him to stop assaulting premies? Well?????? Well??????

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 16:14:09 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: how brian got so damn smart all of a sudden...
Message:
Cab drivers' grey matter enlarges and adapts to
help them store a detailed mental map of the
city, according to research.

Taxi drivers given brain scans by scientists at
University College London had a larger
hippocampus compared with other people. This
part of the brain is associated with navigation in
birds and animals.

The scientists also found that part of the
hippocampus grew larger as the taxi drivers
spent more time in the job...

The hippocampus is at the front of the brain
and was examined in Magnetic Resonance
Imaging (MRI) scans on 16 drivers of London
cabs. The drivers had spent an average of two
years in intensive training for 'the Knowledge' -
the vast number of street names and routes in
the capital which they must learn to get their
licence.

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 11:29:22 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Mel
Subject: EV and M will never sue
Message:
Mel: Write Rotwat an email and tell him you are concerned about the posts here. They will never sue because that would mean having depositions of witnesses, possibly opening corporate finances to discovery, and worst of all, a public forum where we can trot out all the old stuff where M claims to be Lord of the Universe. I can assure you, neither EV nor M want that.

Happy reading of the forum today!

Marianne

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 12:38:36 (GMT)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: EV and M will never sue
Message:
I agree with Marianne. It would be far to risky for Prempal to sue. Otherwise he would have done it already - he must have been aware of the infringement for a long period of time.

If he sues, chances are that everything - tax evasion, Jagdeo, Fakiranand, mistresses, alcohol and drug abuse, gold toilets, etc - comes out into open air and is being weathered in the press. No, no. Mel bourne is just bluffing. A poor bluff.

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 14:33:04 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Happy
Subject: not speaking of what would happen IF
Message:
You know what happened when Scientology tried to sue its anti sites? Dozens of mirror sites sprouted overnight in every country!

I doubt Mr Rawat would risk that!!! He'd have to sue everybody everywhere, that would be too funny!!!!

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 08:57:33 (GMT)
From: toby
Email: toby4u@01019freenet.de
To: Everyone
Subject: can't anybody sit down aand write a book
Message:
i mean it would be interesting how from a religous cult
a multi - business machine was developed with all
the connections to Dettmers, Apter and all the changes in terms and external behavior.

A huge social study this would be.

and not only interesting for us.

A written documentation.

wouldn't this be nice?

There is so much material we have form Jean-Michel and so many
others.

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 20:34:47 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: toby
Subject: ...and write a book? Are we sitting comfortably?
Message:
...and write a book? Are we sitting comfortably?

First things first, who are we?

Toby, are you by any chance the same Toby who was active in the early 1970s in London - making a speciality of 'collecting' valuable antiques from premies?

If not, so be it, but if so, do you know what happened to those ancient Japanese rice-paper prints that I browbeat my parents into donating to DLM? How much did they fetch?

(They ended their lives in poverty, BTW - and if that makes the Maha laugh, ...)

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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 20:59:28 (GMT)
From: toby
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: ...and write a book? Are we sitting comfortably?
Message:
no i am not
sorry
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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 09:26:42 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: toby
Subject: very good possibility!
Message:
I've just had a meeting yesterday with a friend of mine who's a journalist, a professional (known) writer, and a specialist of that sort of thing (don't want to give details for the moment).

She has seen my website and the other exes websites, and is very interested in working on this (her idea, not mine).

We're working on the project, and there might be 2 books coming out of this work. One from her, and one from me. You'll have to be patient, and provide me with some more good stuff!!!! Hahahaha

IF this comes out, then we might translate it. I have no doubt her work will be excellent.

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 01:43:07 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Forum Adinistration
Subject: Attention please - forum administration
Message:
Hi

If you haven't read the thread below started by Jim about 'hard face squeezing' already, please do. In my opinion it raises interesting questions about your potential legal liability
in publishing comments similar to his.

There used to be forum rules about perceived and real threats of violence, do they still apply? I know Brian and Katie were generally quite vigilant about this kind of thing. Are you guys still around?

Mel

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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 14:55:35 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: truth is the best defence......
Message:
Mel,

First of all, many here would just jump for joy if the guru were to initiate legal action. As was said by many other posters, he never will because of the very reason we want him to, he would expose himself to scutiny, and he has a lot to hide and a lot to lose.

I have heard that the PAMs object to my talking about Jagdeo on the internet. It just isn't the right place to discuss such things.Why would they feel that way? Because they can't HIDE it. It can't be swept away. The rumor gets out. My hope, it gets out SO well that wherever he is children are protected. I do not even have faith they have done that simple thing.

Premiedom is a society in which information is carefully controlled and spun. Just look at the documents on JM's site. It is laughable how hard they try to control all the variables in human interaction. The net offers free exchange of information. A danger to a cult to be sure.

Thank goodness these websites are here.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 16, 2000 at 20:37:18 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Susan
Subject: Well said Susan - hope Mel reads it (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 03:17:53 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Grow up (nt)
Message:
n
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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 02:56:35 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Attention please, Mel
Message:
As much as I find fights with premies to be childish at best, you're argument is a no-starter. The comments were obviously sarcastic. Obnoxious perhaps, but that's about it.

There are plenty of better places to start to argue your little place in the sun here. Exes initiate discussion with premies and
subsequently tell them that this is not a premie place, for one.

But I'm not going to stick my neck out over your 'rights' here. The issue of 'democracy' is an equally moot point. It's not a democracy.

I'm sorry that our hatred for M'rage is taken out on premies who post here. Some of you may deserve it, and many points made by premies here appear idiotic to me. The relentless parade of degrading language,however, does not represent all of the exes who post here nor does it represent some requirement of leaving M'rage. I really don't give a fuck what words are used. Verbal abuse is associated closely with Guru Maharaj-ji, aka Maharaji. As such, it seems cruel to use it against premies.

I feel obliged to say this shit once in awhile. I'll probably get flamed for it. I'm still thinking it when I don't post it.

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 03:41:02 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Very, very insightful, Run
Message:
Run,

You have just made some wonderful points of your own and I, for one, would like to thank you yet again. This point here:

Verbal abuse is associated closely with Guru Maharaj-ji, aka Maharaji. As such, it seems cruel to use it against premies.

is especially profound. You must be a real smart guy, huh? Holy mackeral! I've never really known anyone like you, Run. You go to college and everything? Too fucking much!

How're things going over on RE by the way? Did you ever come up with a 'gossip' policy? No one's calling you a snivelly asshole over there, are they. Personally, I'd hate that. I mean if they were.

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 02:21:32 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: I'd like to kick your guru's fat butt, too, Mel
Message:
But really Mel, wouldn't you? Come on, let's be honest. We might not have agreed about everything over the time we've known each other (mind you, I don't necessarily agree with everything any anonymous cult member says to me. Don't feel bad). No, we might have sparked a bit, Mel, but the one thing no one can fault you for is being dishonest. They should rename Sodium Pentathol the Mel drug, 'puts you into a real Mel, people could say' and we'd know they wre talking about truth and candour. Shucks, Mel, I'm not trying to embarrass you. I'm just mindful of all the good work you've done here and the strong impression you've made. Honesty, Mel, is what you're all about. Hey, don't fight it. It's you, babe, that's just how it is.

So I'm asking you, Mel, to please give me some of that honesty I've come to appreciate. Wouldn't you really -- no shit now, eh? -- wouldn't you really like to kick your guru's fat little butt too? You know, he thinks you're just kind of walking into the room with some of other cult members, and he's all talking and everything. And then you kind of come up behind him and thwack (or maybe squishhhh?), you let him have it? Tell me that isn't more appealign than kissing his feet AGAIN!.

Mel, all I can say is that if you're into it I'm there. I'll wait for you down at the Trancas Market. You know, 'lookout'. Not that I'm afraid or anything. Just think you can get a better kick in if I give you a little room. what do you say?

Oh, by the way, you've raised som excellent points as usual. But what about this ass-kicking, Mel? You in or not?

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 05:53:19 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I'd like to kick your guru's fat butt, too, Mel
Message:
Wouldn't you really -- no shit now, eh? -- wouldn't you really like to kick your guru's fat little butt too?

Naw Jim

Not really interested, sorry to disappoint you!

Mel

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 18:06:34 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Come on, Mel, you can tell us!
Message:
Mel,

Therre's no reason to hold back here. After all, most people here would like to kick the motherfucker in the ass. After all those darshan lines, all those many, many pranams, don't you think a little ass-kicking is just what the doctoor ordered?

In fact, I know for a fact that Dr. John in Malibu tried to organize a little guru ass-kicking not so long ago. Plan was to let all sorts of premies line up and swiftly, respectfully of course, stream by and just give the divine fanny a tap, a little love tap, if you will. Maharaji wasn't into it then but maybe you can arrang esomethin next time he's 'on the land' out there. You know, things a little more casual. Really, Mel, you could start it off by just grabbing him and holding him for a moment and let some of your firends come up and give him thta little, little tap of disrespect.

You can't say that this doesn't even slightly appeal to you, Mel. After all, you don't have any credibility, remember? So might as well 'fess up. No one will believe you then either, don't forget.

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 14:21:56 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Admirable resilience and fortitude
Message:
Well I think it takes some 'spunk' as you Aussies say to come into this hostile enviroment and state your case, Mel. You do it better than most and do come across as a real person unlike some of the past Elan Vital mouthpieces.

You know, I like the company of premies. I might not be too hot on Maharaji but I feel an affinity with some premies. There is a major factor which some ex-premies disregard and that is this:

What are the ex-premies offering?

Maharaji at least appears to be offering something and the ex-premies appear to be tearing it down. Ex-premies appear to be destructive and negative. There is no career in being an ex-premie. It's a kind of non identity. That's why I can't really identify myself as being an ex-premie.

Maybe that's why I myself am a bit of a loner in the ex-premie community. I don't really fit in. I don't feel like an ex-premie because I haven't felt part of the trip for many years. The friends I have who were premies, still are premies and to me, my personal relationship with them is more important than any premie v ex-premie argument.

But with Maharaji that's a different matter. That's a personal thing. It's just between me and him. Other people really don't come into it.

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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 02:54:52 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Admirable resilience and fortitude
Message:
Thanks Sir Dave

I will take your comments on face value and in good faith without the usual premie/ex-premie paranoia creeping in.

Better be careful though, Dave, folks around can get a mite uppity your seen talking to the wrong people!

Best wishes

Mel

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 17:51:09 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Have you gone mad, Dave?
Message:
Maharaji at least appears to be offering something and the ex-premies appear to be tearing it down. Ex-premies appear to be destructive and negative.

Personally, I always thought you were abundantly cognizant of the harm Maharaji's done. No one's said it better than Anarchist who recently posted:

You fucking bastard, bastard, bastard Maharaji.
You fucking wrecker of lives,
You fucking manipulator of innocent people
For your own ends.
You are beyond selfish,
You are beyond greedy.
You are an enemy of all sincere people.

I thought you agreed with these sentiments. No?
You are a fucking abomination
On the face of this Earth.

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 17:56:34 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: oops!
Message:
You are a fucking abomination
On the face of this Earth.

was the end part of Anarchist's post, not my own. Funny, eh? That's not exactly the kind of verbiage one would want to misdirect.

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 16:47:10 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: That's an incredibly dumb post, Dave
Message:
Good for you.
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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 15:35:14 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: It's a conspiracy, Dave
Message:
What are the ex-premies offering?

Maharaji at least appears to be offering something and the ex-premies appear to be tearing it down. Ex-premies appear to be destructive and negative. There is no career in being an ex-premie. It's a kind of non identity. That's why I can't really identify myself as being an ex-premie.

Dave, so called 'ex-premies' are offering something hugely more valuable. Offering people their lives back: their minds, their rationality, independence of thought, action and being, free of the strangling influence of this stinky little cult and it's cancerous leader. How 'bout that for starters?

How else can you challenge the crap this cult puts people through other than tearing down the supports of it's rotten teetering foundation? How can you do this in a 'positive' way? Not saying it's impossible, but looking for ideas.

One thing which puzzles me about you is why you don't make the effort to hook up with some of the Latvian clubbers, as you are right there in London, correct? I hear they are nice people.

Maybe you're hanging around too many premies these days.

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 16:55:20 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: You illustrate my point nicely
Message:
Yes I do hang around with a few premies, but they're my friends. Were before I became an ex-premie in 1983 and still will be in the future.

But you illustrate my point nicely. Why should I see the world in terms of a cult? Isn't that itself allowing a cult (or ex-cult cult) to dictate to you. Why should you expect me to hang out with the Latvians? I'm not in the ex-premie cult. I've nothing against the Latvians but they're not long standing friends like the few premies I know are.

But your last point said it best of all when you said, 'Maybe you're hanging around too many premies these days.'

It's up to me who I hang around with and entirely of my choosing. That is what it means to not be a part of a group or cult (which the ex-premies is).

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 18:00:11 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: You illustrate my point nicely
Message:
The last line was tongue-in-cheek. Here's the emoticon: ;-)

Of course you are free to associate with whomever you chose. That's a given.

Dave, what is this 'dictating' stuff all about? Who is dictating what to whom? Really, I'm serious. emoticon :-|

Perhaps it is merely a projection of my own personality, but I'm eager to make new friends wherever and whenever. I would go to the Latvian underground just out of curiousity. Everyone is different and I was basically wondering (and still do wonder) why you wouldn't make an effort to connect with these folks especially since you are right there. But really, no big deal.

Now for your last line:

That is what it means to not be a part of a group or cult (which the ex-premies is).

Shit, I'm in a cult! Damn, again!

Come on Dave, you can't be serious. About the only thing this 'group' agrees with is that Maharaji is a malignant fraud. I've seen little other concensus that would constitute a group.

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 20:13:15 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: I'll second that one...gerry
Message:
ger: '....About the only thing this 'group' agrees with is that Maharaji is a malignant fraud. I've seen little other concensus that would constitute a group....'

AIN'T THAT THE TRUTH! To even 'think' otherwise is laughable.... particularly if our (the entire forum's) own, oft-stated personal political viewpoints are any indication! For most people here, the term '180 degrees out' would be an UNDERstatement! he he he :-)

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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 17:35:04 (GMT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Yo Mike, thanks
Message:
I've really enjoyed reading your posts yesterday. Would love to hear more stories, and I bet you have tons of them.

But you know hwut? We need to do that sitting around a campfire, on a clear and warm desert night with our consciousness cosmically enhanced by a little divine red wine and perhaps a bit o' the gods good green in the peace pipe...

THIS MUGGIN' SUMMER !!!!

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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 18:15:16 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: How 'bout the bottom of the canyon?
Message:
Gerry: Ok, so I'm kinda single-minded on this canyon deal..... he he he. It's been a long time and I miss the incredible 'solitude with friends...' down there! How's that for inscrutible? he he he :-)

Actually, I'll go anywhere so long as it's in the wilderness. Heck, I'll even give in to car-camping if I must... he he he :-) Jeez, I just get back from a weeklong backpack, a couple of weeks ago, and I want to go again! I guess it wasn't long enough to satisfy me..... But my old, tired body said I'd had enough.... Ahhh, the spirit is willing (obsessed???) and the flesh is so weak.

The bottle of god's red and a peace pipe sounds good, too. ;-)

Thanks for the 'post' compliments..... YES, there really IS life after M. I'm enjoying as much of it as I possibly can. I guess I'm pretty lucky because I actually found my niche. I know what I like and, thank goodness, I am physically capable of doing most of it (at least, for now)! My grandfather died when he turned 100 years old..... he was hiking and backpacking right to the end. I had the pleasure of sharing adventures with him for most of my life, to that point. After I had learned so much about the inner grand canyon, I had the pleasure of leading HIM on a backpack down a little used set of trails there. He was almost 70 at the time. You'd have thought he was a teenager. I hope I get to live as long and healthy as he did..... BTW, age didn't kill him (welllll, you know what I mean), asthma did it in 20 minutes!

Let's DO IT! Maybe I can introduce you to some 'Hopi Physics,' as one premie/moron recently accused...... he he he :-)

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 02:18:21 (GMT)
From: Anarchist
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Attention please - forum administration
Message:
If someone writes that they'd like to bust your ass, do you really think they're threatening violence? Or perhaps they're into cruelty to animals and want to damage your donkey.
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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 02:02:02 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Anarchist
Subject: Attention please - forum administration
Message:
If someone writes that they'd like to bust your ass, do you really think they're threatening violence?

Could be! I have no real way of knowing, do I? and hey, we live in a violent world, don't we!

Mel

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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 13:51:03 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: My world ain't 'that' violent, Mel
Message:
Mel: You need help.... go get it.
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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 12:05:24 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Attention please! Violence announced!!!!
Message:
One of the biggest violents acts one can do to another is what your guru is doing> He violates your individuality, your mind, your soul!! Read, investigate; he wants to avoid that because what he wants is to keep you busy so you don't find out what you got yourself into!

And he tells you that you ...if you want to -reads do it- you can do service. If you cooperate little or much is irrelevant, because the truth is you are helping him, period. All premies are at fault for believing and supporting such a deceptive crap!!
Regain your freedom: You lost it when you accept him as your MASTER!!!
S

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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 04:04:55 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: You sound like a paranoid schizophrenic.
Message:
At night before you go to sleep, do you check under the bed for the boogyman?

Maybe you should try meditating, it might help you not be so afraid.

Hey, remember what Maharaji said about 'premie paranoia'? Maybe you should listen to him.

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 16:05:15 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Anarchist
Subject: Only if certain people say it!
Message:
Anarchist: Mel's selective application of this 'rule' is applied only to those individuals with the clearest thought. If you are a muddle-headed individual or are ambivalent concerning M, then he will try to give you his version of the time-of-day.

If, however, you call him on his interpretation of the time-of-day and begin to win, then he tries to bring up these rediculous quasi-legal arguments (read that: he thinks he has legal standing) and the fact that hate/threat is the only thing espoused here. Look in the archives...... it's not new!

Heck, he called me a murderer on several occasions..... I found that quite offensive and I'd bet he wouldn't have the kahonies to say that to me in person!

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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 23:59:47 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Give this girl a smart card! Now!
Message:
From ... well, you know:

Grateful

Hello to all of you.

Maharaji's words are so true. Unfortunately for me, I had to realise this in my darkest of days. Feeling abandoned from every person close to me, having abandoned myself, this was/still is, such a struggle. I had to reach the darkest hour, to grasp on to Maharaji's words.

There, where nothing can sedate, nothing can comfort. There, where there is only energy to make tons of tears fall. I am definitely not the first nor the last to be in such a situation. I still am somehow in this situation. But Maharaji and his words, they are the rope of salvation for me.

I am an aspirant - so I see the rope coming down in this deep hole I am in. and it is the rope that leads to light. I can see it. I don't have Knowledge yet - one day I will. I hope/wish i will be able to reach the top of the hole, because I don't want to be in darkness anymore. I don't want to look back, to where it is much darker than it is now. I want to see .I want to feel this light inside of me. I am grateful, to be able to have found this hope.

Maria Stylianaki
Athens, Greece

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 01:05:43 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Or maybe just a baby
Message:
Maria Stylianaki: Thanks for giving me hope
From Athens, Greece

Hello people.

This happy aspirant posted this also:

I felt happy to be alive when reading all your contributions. I don't have Knowledge yet.. I felt happy to be alive when holding a four month old baby in my arms, I felt so happy. to hold her, I actually could drink life just by holding her. Pure life. Not become like us yet. I want to be like that too... This feeling is so strong.... it is so overwhelming, but I don't know how yet, to reach it when I want to... I am so jealous of you guys.... but I promise I will be joining you soon!

Thank you for your support!

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 07:31:18 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: This is sad,sad,sad. (nt)
Message:
t
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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 22:01:27 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Here is How Joan Apter Does It
Message:
Joan is now a 'Senior Consultant' with 'Idea Champions' in Woodstock, New York. It is run by good old Mitch Ditkoff. Mr. Ditkoff doesn't mention Maharaji, Elan Vital or DLM, but does mention that he once was a 'senior consultant' for the 'Inner Game Foundation,' Tim Galway's outfit.

But we all know Joan was an ardent devotee of Maharaji for many years, and was a mahatma/initiator for years -- seven I think. Here is how she explains that period of her life on her resume on the Idea Champions' website:

For seven years, Ms. Apter was the Regional Training Manager for Elan Vital, Inc., an international non-profit educational organization.

Hmmmm. That isn't exactly how I remember it. 'Regional Training Manager??????' Give me a break. She makes it sound like she was doing seminars on how to sell vacuum cleaners or something. In reality, Joan was an initiator for Divine Light Mission, the purpose of which was 'Knowledge of god' and the 'Perfect Master' and uplifting humanity from the sufferings of ignorance' like I mentioned is on DLM's corporate documents. 'TRAINING MANAGER???'

Many of us witnessed what Joan did in her job as 'Regional Training Manager.' She got up in front of people night after night and swooned and carried on about her total love for the Perfect Master, about how her mind made her insane, and how much she needed Guru Maharaj Ji's grace, because she was too insane to survive on her own. I don't believe I ever heard her referred to as a 'Training Manager,' regional or otherwise. And what exactly was she 'training' people to do? Surrender? And WHOM did she manage? Funny how events get changed on resumes, isn't it?

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 09:14:58 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Don't you think Rawat's also a prisoner
Message:
of the support system he has created.

It's very likely that his PAM's businesses are his main financial resource, and he'll only get his share of 'gifts' from these guys ONLY if he plays good guru.

Then he has no choice ....., I mean, he has SO MUCH bills to pay every month, and playing guru is a very expensive game! Specially if he wants to keep playing the megalomaniac one, which he has always played! Really no choice for him.

Of course one would say he could resign or retire, but I think he's still a bit too young and his chosen heir a bit too unexperienced .....

He HAS TO keep playing guru, whatever his 'enemies' will say. Even with a very small following and their smartcards.

The question maybe is: how much pressure is on his sytems, how much debts he has, how bad is IRS with him, where the critical point where his empire will implode?

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 17:48:31 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Don't you think Rawat's also a prisoner
Message:
The corporate ownerships are clearly so complex- we really don't know what is going on and haven't really investigated any of it very thoroughly.

Some of the corps could be designed to fund PAM's instead of the other way around. Some of these people would have considerable influence (or pressure you could say) on Living Rot, both in terms of the things they know about him and the emotional connection (i.e., how much Rawatt does really owe them for their servitude).

I don't think Rawatt has a choice. He has to support their 'reference' system (their resumes) at a bare minimum. They can make a lot bigger stink than we can, for the most part.

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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 23:24:36 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Joan Apter's Resume
Message:
For anyone interested, here is the address to Joan's resume at Idea Champions. It even includes her picture. Yep, that's her!

www.ideachampions.com/JoanApter.html

You can also read about Mitch Ditkoff and some guy named Vander(something) who previously worked as a 'consultant' to Elan Vital. Yes, I'm sure he was one of the MANY 'consultants' Elan Vital hired over the years.

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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 22:50:12 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Here is How Joan Apter Does It
Message:
This is so sad. It must be so weird to not be able to lay one's cards on the table and just say 'this was what I did for 7 years.' Instead it's all a bunch of lingo made pretty for public consumption.

She has got to feel cut into a millions pieces. How do people reconcile this shit? Or else she feels like 'the world doesn't understand so I have to keep this part of my life under lock and key.' Yuck, it is satsang, corporate style. I think I liked the brazen (although admittedly horrific) years when we all pranamed to the dirt and didn't care what 'the world' thought. This is far worse and much more duplicitous.

Seems like all these PAMS in business are taking care of each other too. WOuld like to hear more.

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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 22:50:11 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Think of the new generation of premies
Message:
who're going to be Insights-Brain Tracy Licensed managers!!!

Hahaha what a joke!!! Insights/Tracy have been selling their seminars to Coca-Cola etc , Rawat's 'knowledge' is just another canned nectar!

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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 23:33:34 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Think of the new generation of premies
Message:
Insights must have a webpage. Do you know is they do? What is the exact name of the company?

And what kind of seminars do they do? Are they that new-age, motivational bullshit that so many US corporations have been imposing on their employees?

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 02:10:44 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: See the March 6 and 8 threads re Insights
Message:
See the March 6 and 8 threads re Insights
- currently in the inactive index.

It sounds part new-age, motivational bullshit, part personality typing bullshit.

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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 21:23:40 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Michael Dettmers
Message:
Somebody gave the link to the Jossi Fresco site down below. Mr. Fresco has a picture of himself on the site, which, based on the haircut and the cut of the suit, was taken in about 1976. Mr. Fresco would need to be at least in his 50s by now (he graduated from college in 1971), but his picture makes him look 25.

I also noticed that one of his 'clients' is Gylanix Solutions, which is Michael Dettmers' current business venture. Fresco has a link to Dettmers' webpage which includes Michael's resume. Neither in his resume, nor anywhere else, does Dettmers mention Maharaji, Divine Light Mission, Elan Vital 'THAT LOVE, THAT GIFT, or THAT EXPERIENCE, or anything related. But somehow he has to explain that 10-year period, during which he was the right hand man of the Lord of the Universe. Here is how he explains it:

As the Managing Director of a Swiss-based Foundation from 1973 to 1982, he organized educational programs and events in over 25 countries. He also managed its world-wide business operations including travel services, event management, health food services, and publications and video productions generating revenues in excess of 100 million dollars in 1982.

Now isn't that creative? He was the Managing Director of a Swiss-based Foundation. Hello? Michael Dettmers fails to mention in his resume that he was a bigwig in DIVINE LIGHT MISSION, INC. in Denver, Colorado, for many years, which is a Colorado Corporation, which then changed its name to Elan Vital in 1986, also a Colorado Corporation. Neither are 'Foundations' and Switzerland was not in the picture. According to the Articles of Incorporation of DIVINE LIGHT MISSION, the 'specific business purpose' of DLM was to:

provide and operate an institution dedicated to the uplifting of humanity from the sufferings of ignorance by giving the Knowledge of God as revealed by the Perfect Master, Balyogeshwar Param Hans Sat Gurudev Sant Ji Maharaj (known as Guru Maharaj Ji)...'

You would think Michael would mention that he was dedicated to uplifting humanity from sufferings and ignorance. I mean, that's pretty significant. Not to mention Knowledge of God. Man, I mean most people can't put that on their resume.

Also, I believe after Dettmers stopped working in DIVINE LIGHT MISSION, he went to work in the OFFICE OF GURU MAHARAJ JI for awhile. He doesn't mention that employment at all. Wonder why?

Question:
Does the lack of mentioning of Maharaji reflect embarrassment, animosity, or what? And since he, Dettmers, is hiring an obvious cult-related web designer for his company, is he still connected to the cult, or is he long gone?

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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 21:30:44 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Also, 100 Million Dollars???
Message:
But Dettmers does mention that the 'Swiss Foundation' he managed, apparently the code word for Divine Light Mission, had revenues of $100 million in 1982. My god. Do you think Maharaji appreciates Dettmers throwing around these little facts?
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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 22:53:57 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Where's the money?
Message:
Even the G4 doesn't cost that much ! And Rawat was not into G4s at that time!

Where is the money?????????????

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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 02:10:23 (GMT)
From: TRI
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Where's the money?
Message:
Somebody's got to pay this wonderful staff:

This is Elan Vital:


Corporation
ELAN VITAL, INC.
Number: C0661537Date Filed: 7/26/1972Status: active
Jurisdiction: COLORADO
Mailing Address
PO BOX 6130
MALIBU, CA 90264
Agent for Service of Process
LINDA S GROSS
SANTA MONICA, CA 90403

This is Amtext California:


Corporation
AMTEXT INC. WHICH WILL DO BUSINESS IN CALIFORNIA AS TEXT MART
Number: C2004400Date Filed: 3/17/1997Status: active
Jurisdiction: DELAWARE
Mailing Address
11900 BISCAYNE BLVD, #200
MIAMI, FL 33181
Agent for Service of Process
BARBARA MACFARLAND
FULLERTON, CA

This is Seva Corporation of America (owns the residence, a glider, and sundry toys along with the absentee owner):


Corporation
SEVA CORPORATION OF AMERICA
Number: C0858497Date Filed: 1/5/1978Status: active
Jurisdiction: NEVADA
Mailing Address
P O BOX 1437
THOUSAND OAKS, CA 91358
Agent for Service of Process
JOHN K BALE
THOUSAND OAKS, CA 91360

This is Rotwat's company for future generations of Rotwats:


Corporation
WAHADAMAR, INC.
Number: C1710708Date Filed: 8/3/1992Status: active
Jurisdiction: California
Mailing Address
PO BOX 1437
THOUSAND OAKS, CA 91358
Agent for Service of Process
ALVARO PASCOTTO
LOS ANGELES, CA 90067


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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 18:07:46 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: West Coast Latvian Club Meets.
Message:
Last Saturday saw the inaugural meeting of the West Coast Branch of the Latvian Club, in Lulus Restaurant, on Fulsom St, San Francisco. In attendance, quaffing beer and oysters, was a veritable host of Forum personalities, including Roger eDrek (recently returned from a 40 day fast on the Big Sur), Barney (flown in by private helicopter from Hawaii), JW (taking a night off, from hosting his own show in Vegas), Susan (in town to play with a punk band), AJW (on the run from Police in Europe), Monmot (on the way to LA to star in a movie with Tom Cruise and Mick Jagger), Ben Lurking (spotted begging outside the restaurant by eDrek) plus several anonymous lurkers.

There were also other more mysterious characters, who showed up later. For a variety of conspiratorial reasons, they wish to remain shady figures in the background. I’ll call them Hilary and Eric.

A wonderful time was had by all. The day was passed in what is becoming a familiar pattern for Latvian meetings. It begins with fine food, good company and lively banter, and ends up with me under the influence of Zelta, or Californian wine and beer, or something, stumbling around in the small hours with an equally intoxicated pal or two, in a strange place.

On Saturday, the fellow inebriant was eDrek, and the strange place was Oakland BART station. We both came round in a massive hotel room, somewhere in a valley in the East Bay area, Sunday afternoon, with 4 TVs, all playing different channels, very loud.

The meal at Lulus was rich in wonderful stories of our ex-Masters scandalous antics. I was astonished by some of the ripening revelations which will undoubtedly be dropping onto the green lawn of Forum Five in the coming months.

It was great to meet up with all the faces behind the names. Everybody is much nicer in person, than they are online. So, to those I mentioned, and those I didn’t thanks for a great time.

(eDrek, after you distracted the cops, I buried everything on the wasteground behind the Microsoft building.)

Anthichrist.

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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 21:26:43 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: all
Subject: I was there :)
Message:
The best thing about meeting this amazing cast of characters was that I can now say this to myself:

If these fabulous people all made the same idiotic mistake I did and now are the interesting, articulate and very nice people that I found them to be than perhaps I should forgive myself for the fact I believed the guru was the lord of the universe and actually kissed his feet...I was in good company.

If you ever have the chance to meet other ex's in person go for it. It is a bit of a scary prospect to meet up with these souls you don't really know but once you do they quickly feel like old and dear friends. An experience well worth having.

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 01:15:59 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Moi Aussi :-)))
Message:
To be honest, getting involved in DLM/EV/M is a complicated subject, but the one thing I have never regretted is some of the great people I have met over the years, who far outnumber the not-so-great ones. And some of these fabulous people include the LCW (Latvian Club West) members whom I had the great pleasure to meet this weekend at our inaugural party. We traded some great stories, funny and sad, and we all laughed ourselves silly.
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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 03:48:47 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: You Had Some GREAT Stories
Message:
Yeah, it was a fun lunch, even though I think Anth and Roger Drek got lost on the way to the restaurant. But they made it eventually. I must say, Monmot, you had some WONDERFULLY SCANDALOUS stories about Maharaji and what an absolute jerk he is as a human being, that I hope you share here sometime. The one you told us all at Lulus should be enshrined onto the ex-premie website as a permanent addition.

I have suggested to Susan that Latvian Club West have an annual meeting on the West Coast of the USA and we should try to get as many of the Latvian East members to attend as well. Marianne should be back by then, so there would be one addition. I think the next one should be in Malibu. What do you think? Should we all go and 'do service' at 'the residence' by scrubbing down one of the driveways with toothbrushes? Doesn't that sound like fun?

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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 00:58:45 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: You Had Some GREAT Stories
Message:
Hey Joe:

Stories will be forthcoming. I think my preferred slave labor is being on all fours wet-sanding the teak deck, all the time thinking, 'this is not me.'

M

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 16:20:07 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Hey Joe, I had to do that
Message:
JW: Scrubbing floors with toothbrushes is standard fare when you first join the military...... SO what's wrong with that? Hey, at least we didn't have to paint the grass green for an inspection visit, like some others had to do! he he he :-)
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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 23:27:43 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Hey Joe, I had to do that
Message:
Dear Mike,
'Hey, at least we didn't have to paint the grass green for an inspection visit, like some others had to do! he he he :-) '
Sounds like Alice in Wonderland!!! :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 11:19:46 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Let's do it again
Message:
I shoulda been there too! If I had, Anth and eDrek wouldn't have gotten lost! The thought of the two of them roaming around SoMa is truly frightening.

Glad to hear you all had such a great time, rivaled only by my night in Latvia. Incidentally, my husband has become an honorary Latvian club member as he spent an entire week at the Latvian club before meeting me here in Cork.

We can organize another event later in the summer, or fall when the weather is the best. I'm sorry I missed you all, especially Susan.

So Rotwat, gettin' nervous at all this talking in person???

Love to you all,
Marianne

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 16:24:02 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Let's do it again Yes!!!
Message:
Dear Marianne,

Many times during the day I thought of you and wished you were with us. We must do this again with you!

Susan

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 04:44:40 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: We did not get lost! It was Maharaji's Grace!
Message:
It was Maharaji's Grace that we (the AnthiChrist and Roger, 'The Plant', eDrek) even showed up for this decadent bashing of our poor Lord and Master. We traveled through the underbelly of your San Francisco and ministered to the poor and the downtrodden to contrast our lunch in a restaurant full of Dot Com's and Physicians.

JW, you had left the group of 'tourists', as you unashamedly called us, when I, Roger eDrek, was once again accused of being a PLANT. I thought that I had this accusation down on audio tape, but because of more of Maharaji's Grace it is has been lost in the ethers.

Indeed, all of the West Coast Latvians are good people and I believe that a good time was had by all.

The next West Coast Latvian should be in Malibu where it will all be filmed on a MiniDV camera. But, I'm not sure that Canadians should be invited.

Roger the getting rich the slow way at a half pence at a time

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 04:07:41 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: That is SO rude, Joe
Message:
Look, some of us have to work for a living and some of us can't go gallavanting all over the globe everytime the spirit of Latvia calls. And so some of us didn't get to hear any of these so-called scandalous stories and then here you are, just reminiscing and everything.

So what are the rest of us, Joe? Gefilte fish? Listen, you got a story? You tell a story! So vat stories you want to tell? You got a story maybe? Vat? VAAAT??

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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 18:15:12 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Did you check your wallet?
Message:
Don't forget, Maharaji owns the european distribution rights to nollige, the classic hindu date-rape drug.
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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 12:54:41 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Did you check your wallet?
Message:
Hi Jim,

We filled the pipe up with it, but couldn't set it alight, so we ended up flushing it down the toilet.

Did you know eDrek was peddling pictures of yourself in Lulus? There's a great series of you and Laurie being escorted out of the States, onto a seaplane, by several heavily armed law enforcement officers. I got the set for 10 dollars.

We have to get Monmot to put that incredible story in print. It really is a classic. I was shocked, and I'm an ex.

Anth le Parisien

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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 18:03:26 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: upcoming programs,smart cards, web site,pictures..
Message:
A few thoughts about the upcoming programs, supposedly in march and april. There may be a number of small programs, available on satellite video transmission, with people only allowed to go to one of them live. The smart card will be necessary to get in to the one live program you're allowed to attend.
Perhaps another name in addition to 'ex-premie.org' which allows you to get into the site would be helpful-most of the faithful will not go near an 'ex-premie' site, as it would instantly bring up fears of them becoming a dreaded 'ex'. Also, new people might not go near it, but both groups might be intrigued to peek into a site with a different name, something not anti-maharaji, but related to him or the organization. Maybe offering up some of the recently displayed old darshan pictures would be enough to bring premies in, as well as new recruits. I think one look at those pictures would turn most new people's stomachs more than anything we might say.
I think a nice little business card with a little saying on it along with the web site would go a long way, if place in phone booths, bathrooms, bulletin boards etc. at the program site. Also a quick call to the local media, or an e-mail with the site would be helpful.
I am actually not so anti-m, as much as pro-truth. shouldn't we all know the truth about m's 'other side', and especially new recruits who might be checking him out?
Maybe a special part of this site dedicated to new people, with some old pictures and quotes, next to new quotes, so they can compare and see what they might be getting into...
Comments welcome, esp. Jim, JW,JM and anyone else...
Peace and love....
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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 18:50:54 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk
To: la-ex
Subject: Search engine idea
Message:
I've already got a search engine on my Not Maharaji's Mixed Bag page. This engine searches all of the ex-premie sites.

I could create a search engine which searched all of the premie sites and ex-premie sites together and then that could be put onto a fairly neutral site, the sort of site you are suggesting.

Then, when people do a search on something, they'll get both sides of the story. Fair play and all that.

By the way, at first glance, Jean Michel's site looks like a pro Maharaji site and I've seen some ex-premies actually condemn it as a premie site.

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 08:19:51 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: I'm spreading confusion!
Message:
at first glance, Jean Michel's site looks like a pro Maharaji site and I've seen some ex-premies actually condemn it as a premie site.

What would you suggest?

Maybe I should make it more clear in the main page? How?

My idea is also that interested persons look through all this stuff, and make their own opinion ....

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 11:30:40 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: I'm spreading confusion!
Message:
Maybe this is the right way to go. It's not an obvious ex site and I even saw premie Mili thank you for all the pictures and satsang on it once.

I don't think there's any need for this polarity of ex-premie premie on a site when the words themselves can make people decide. Most people are neither strongly for or against.

I never come across as an 'ex-premie' in real life when I am with premies. I don't like to try to convert people. If they're happy as being premies, I can't and shouldn't interfere. But if they want to learn more about my view then I'm happy to tell them.

I think your site is fine as it is. I think a lot of the Indian premies like it and perhaps some of them get the message if they take time to read. I should think you don't get any premie hate mail, yes?

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 18:38:21 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: You're a big hypocrite on this one, Dave
Message:
I don't think there's any need for this polarity of ex-premie premie on a site when the words themselves can make people decide. Most people are neither strongly for or against.

I don't know what kind of game you're playing but I'm not amused. You have INDEED posted some VERY damning posts about Maharaji here. Keep this shit up and I'll prove it.

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 18:52:25 (GMT)
From: Dgeri
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Keep it up, Jim, and...
Message:

you'll have poor Runamok screaming 'Threats!!! Bully!!!'

Now I'd hate to see that, especially being on my best behavior and Run being so much, well, 'fun' these days it would be a shame to get things all stirred up again.

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 14:07:33 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: I got some premies' emails
Message:
but very few. Didn't count them, say less than 10 in more than 2 years.
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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 18:21:36 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Help needed!
Message:
I agree with you. There's so much stuff available now, and so much more coming.

What would be great (just an idea of mine) would be to design a new website, or maybe re-design mine - maybe the interface, to have a more intelligent display of all the stuff available.

That's something that needs some real homework..... anybody volunteers?

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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 18:11:24 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: upcoming programs,smart cards, web site,pictures..
Message:
You raise a good point about the name 'ex-premie'. It's sure to warn off all but the borderline premies or those vainly committed to doing some very bizarre 'premie maintenance' here. But, realistically, it kind of seems like the name's settled in here. But, I don't know, what would you suggest? I kind of like David's idea, 'The Truth about Maharaji', but he's already using that. What other name or names might you suggest?

Okay, I looked again and see that you're suggesting a second name, not a replacement. Good idea, perhaps. Mind you, come to think of it, isn't that exactly what JM's done with 'The DLM / EV Papers'?

Thanks for the updates, by the way. The more the better.

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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 20:28:54 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: 'Maharaji - revealing the truth' (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 20:36:43 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: That's an excellent double entendre, Nige
Message:
Great idea.
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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 20:19:33 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: ex-premie, ex-maharaji, post-premie, post-M? (nt)
Message:
ex-premie, ex-maharaji, post-premie, post-M? (nt)
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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 14:05:57 (GMT)
From: an ex
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Spanish Forum Devotee
Message:
This is the whole message the premie Isabel posted, criticizing the exes.

Si abandonar a Maharaji significa tener la empanada mental que tu tienes ahora, mejor sigo con el.
It translates:

If to abandon maharaji means to have the mental empanada you have now,I better stay with him.
(empanada is something like a dough pocket filled with whatever food you want)

Notice how she bolded the word maharaji: Devotion to the Lard -sorry, Lord- shown well. Sorry Lard, we are going to wake up the spanish speaking premies now. Watch what is to come!

S

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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 14:31:56 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: an ex
Subject: Spanish Forum Devotee
Message:
That's pitta bread. There's nowt wrong with that. The Greeks swear by it.
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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 21:03:56 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: No it isn't pita bread...
Message:
is made with dough, filled with whatever you like and then you bake it or fry it. Empanadas. hahaha

I love pita bread though...

Is the email address you offered around here still good? I tried to email you and couldn't. Bye...

S

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 01:39:51 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: SB
Subject: New email address
Message:
Quite a few people have had problems with my old email address so here is my new one. It's on the email field on this message or you can see it below:

sirdavid12@hotmail.com

Please do send me an email. You can be the first to use this new address, and I want to see if it works.

I like pitta bread lightly toasted, spread with low fat spread (or butter) on the inside and then filled with green lentils and sliced tomatoes amongst other things.

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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 01:47:09 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Jossi Fresco - Prem Rawat's web Master?
Message:
'Renaissance man' Jossi Fresco is mentioned on the credits page on Rawat's web site under 'web conversion'. It appears that he has had a major influence on most if not all of m's sites.

See Fresco's personal home page.

See a partial list of Fresco's web sites. Some sites are notably left out.

His sites include:
EverSound, copyright Dunrite Productions
Gylanix Solutions

He mentions that he was the Producer for the Dunrite Group site on his Project Portfolio page.

He thanks his Master on his About Jossi page. He says: 'For me there is more to life than we assume. Life is filled with such beauty and feeling if we have the eyes to appreciate it and the heart filled with gratitude to feel it with. I thank my Master for his love, his inspiration and for the many, many gifts. I just hope to keep my cup empty, to be filled again and again.'

I've seen premie music CDs which are from Dunrite in the trinkets room and at the end of m videos. See Dunrite's people page. Jossi Fresco is listed. Ray Belcher rings a bell. The SmartCard Project video is mentioned on the Current Projects page, but you need a userid/password to see the secret details.

Fresco owns the domain name elanvital.net.

Alpen Sun owns maharaji.org, maharaji.com and elanvital.org. The address was left incomplete. What is Alpen Sun?

Arbor Communications owns appreciation.org.

Reality Communications owns enjoyinglife.org and lifewithknowledge.org.

There is an article written by Bill Burke about how Fresco registered furby.net: Furby's Web domain names at a premium

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 01:06:16 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Jossi Fresco - Prem Rawat's web Master?
Message:
G:
Noticed iChange also. Jean-Marie Bonthous works with/for them also. He's a PAM.
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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 16:49:17 (GMT)
From: Cultbuster UK
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Dunrite Group
Message:
The list of names on the Dunrite website is familiar. Alan Saunders was once National Coordinator for the UK. Alan Saunders, John McNelly and Josi Fresco all worked for UCM Ltd in Brighton, where Michael Dettmers was in charge for a while before the company went bust.

Dunrite is a 'Divine Venture', set up recently, possibly connected to Visions International.

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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 06:30:47 (GMT)
From: bburke
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Jossi Fresco - Prem Rawat's web Master?
Message:
A different bill burke as you might imagine!
I emailed jossi fresco just now for the second time. First time he wrote back and I just emailed a response. Not very easy to digest for jossi I bet! Lots of dirt.
I think I will make a project of jossi fresco.
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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 03:28:14 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: bburke
Subject: Reality Communications, Arbor Communications
Message:
Reality Communications' web site is www.realitycom.com. They own enjoyinglife.org and lifewithknowledge.org

Arbor Communications' web site is arborcom.com. They own appreciation.org.

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 03:04:41 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: bburke
Subject: Jossi Fresco - holds copyright on Maharaji's site?
Message:
It looks like Jossi Fresco may hold the copyright to Maharaji's web site.

See Jossi Fresco owns MAHARAJI.NET.

Notice that the PO Box for Fresco and PureVoice, LLC are the same.
Maharaji's web site is copyrighted by PureVoice, LLC.

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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 14:15:01 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: bburke
Subject: Jossi Fresco
Message:
That would be interesting, perhaps a bit more indigestion for him.
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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 23:05:33 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: To Mirror: a simple question
Message:
Hi Mir,

Down below in a rapidly sinking thread, I suggested you ask yourself a couple of questions about what your Knowledge experiences were really all about. Just an alternate, non-spiritual perspective on the would-be mystic's momentary euphoric episodes. (The Illusion of surrendered control.) You declined to comment. Instead you give Hal a lengthy, authoritative discourse on ‘surrender’ – a concept that seems fundamental to your idea of how Knowledge works (if it works). In fact you use the word that many times in the thread without once qualifying or defining the expression.

Perhaps a definition could not do justice to what, for you, is an experience? A place, a state of being, a thing… Sure, surrender can be a noun - but you consistently use the word as an active verb: ie. something you have to DO. (Fish gotta swim, birds gotta fly, premies gotta surrender….)

So WHAT, Mir, does one do to surrender?

Because ‘surrender’ is, to say the least, ambiguous. I can recall three or four senses in which Maharaji and his instructors (you too?) used to employ the term.

First there was surrender when meditating. In this sense we are talking about simply relaxing and letting go. Achieving a state of calm acquiescence. A setting aside of one’s immediate trains of thought or physical desires and becoming passive and focused. In this sense, I see surrender as being no more or less than what a person does during a hypnotic induction. No big deal. No more or less, in fact, than what a person does when they become absorbed in watching a film or reading a book.

Or perhaps you mean that additional hanging on in there factor where you ignore your tiredness, the pain in your legs and back and carry on meditating when nothing seems to be happening..?

Or – away from formal meditation - there is surrender in the sense of listen and trust: set aside your own concepts of the world and accept the Master’s teachings and very special role without question and without analysis or criticism.

Or do you mean surrender through prayer? Where you acknowledge your own weakness and ignorance and actively ask for Maharaji’s Grace to manifest in your life, for the man in charge to take over the reins…

Or there is surrender in the heavy sense where you set aside your free-will to do the Master’s bidding in humility and obedience, accepting whatever menial task is placed before you, no matter how demeaning.

And there are probably other senses, too.

So what does surrender mean to you. Mir? Please answer in terms of the actions or behaviours involved – not some vague fait accomplit that you have already tucked under your belt and now keep polishing up like a badge of honour. If you will not at least attempt this I think it is somewhat arrogant of you to keep repeating your claim that for exes to be exes they can never have surrendered in the first place. Knowledge is simple, or so we are told. Surrender, therefore, must be simple. So tell us please in simple terms, what do you actually do? More to the point: what have you actually done, besides keep the faith, that others here have failed to do?

Nigel

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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 16:42:12 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: What surrender actually is. Who's going to deny?
Message:
Do you need more explanation on how to accept the 'superior power' of the 'master'?

Maybe some more pictures?

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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 00:19:18 (GMT)
From: Robert DeNiro
Email: A Dog who learn't how to play Guitar!
To: Nigel
Subject: Analyse This
Message:
You have no grasp of what is most fundamental to the enjoyment of now. You think your way through it, step by step. Why does Mir try to explain it to you ?. You ask the same question that could be asked of a Cat when purring....and expect a logical answer....which I,m sure is there.....but you'll never get to purr.Understanding or purporting to understand the mechanics involved will never give you anything but an objective observer's viewpoint. In this case the need is to expierience a completely subjective perspective......something in your case akin to teaching a Dog to play Guitar. Maybe not, so why dont you try it. You know what I mean.
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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 14:36:47 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Robert DeNiro
Subject: Did you surrender?
Message:
Most people here did. Anyone who moved into an ashram was surrendering everything to Maharaji. No personal relationships, no money, no control over one's destiny and only Maharaji to lean on.

Now that's surrender. Everything gone, everything sacrificed for the love of the Lard.

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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 09:59:15 (GMT)
From: Charlie
Email: None
To: Robert DeNiro
Subject: Surrender to this
Message:
The term surrender is used as a 'get out' whenever the Guru or devotee need to explain something difficult but can't find the correct words because the truth is too difficult or embarrassing.

An example. After spending a week doing service in Rome as part of the carpentry crew for Holi Festival I was promised a privileged seat in the main arena along with the rest of the team. It turned out that the premie officials in charge of the arena passes handed my ticket and others on to their mates - premies with more status than builders. Come the time when I turned up to take my seat I was set upon by security and forcibly ejected from the floor. When I complained I was told to SURRENDER! Now I had been told that service was the method that Maharaji had given us to get close to him. I had given up my job and travelled across Europe to work in his service to achieve that proximity. I told this to the security premies and they agreed that service was indeed a way to get close to M but there was also another 'better' way - SURRENDER! And so I was told sharply to 'surrender and get to hell out of the arena!' Besides it would have been too embarrassing to ask the 'more important premie' sitting in my seat to shift his butt.

Surrender, surrender, surrender, it was a mantra unofficially attached to the Knowledge. Absolutely anything that would demand an explanation in the real world gets totally ignored in the cult world and the zombies (premies) simply do nothing (surrender). While the guru rolls in luxury and the devotee is shat on from high, there can be no discussion about fairplay or why. Surrender, and you will come to understand in time.

Maharaji daren't rationalize his behaviour, it's safer for him to tell us that the Lord moves in mysterious ways, so do nothing (surrender). From there all the rest of the zombies tell one another and themselves 'do nothing, surrender'. Always in the hope that the BIG realization will one day dawn and the divine plan will be clearly seen in ALL it's glory.

Well let me just say this, the divine plan HAS been revealed in ALL it's glory on these very pages and by christ it's a wonder to behold. It's so simple it's beautiful, it's so profound I am gobsmacked. I have been abused and confused by the world but I found salvation in the Lord with the Knowlege of all Knowledges. After twenty two years I finally REALIZED the Knowledge! The Knowledge was in fact 'nollige' and the Lord has been screwing my arse worse than anything that went before. I've been HAD in a major con!! Now, to add insult to injury the mentally diseased lackies who remain loyal to the zombie master tell me to 'forget about it, don't get so worked up, it's bad for your blood pressure, get a life, it was your choice wasn't it, surrender DO NOTHING!

Who you trying to kid?

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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 16:52:06 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Charlie
Subject: Amen, brother Charlie! (nt)
Message:
gg
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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 00:43:15 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Robert DeNiro
Subject: Way to go, Bobby!
Message:
Bobby,

That was like really fine, man! I can't believe you could say so much in so few words. You're absolutely right that it's senseless to ask a premie anything about their 'experience', that they no more understand it than does a cat know why he's purring. And a dog with a guitar? Holy cow, man, how'd you think of that? That was just so cool.

And as for you, Nigel, what in the world could you say to that? All your sorry little attempts to understand shit with your mind. It's a joke, Nige. Surrender means surrender. Get it? It's that simple. Surrender means surrender and if you just shut your egghead mouth one of these days and actually started doing it instead of talking about it, you might actually experience something for a change.

Christ!

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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 00:48:53 (GMT)
From: Robert DeNiro
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Way to go, Bobby!
Message:
Hey Jimbi, your grasp of subtlety moves me....Do you have to try or does that come naturale??
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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 01:09:01 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Robert DeNiro
Subject: Listen you berk...
Message:
I am talking about experiences too. I am well into experiences, I can tell you. Got that thirst, so I have...

Tomorrow I am running some hypnosis experiments. Even got a former instructor of Maharaji's to make the hypnotic induction tape - and it works! (seriously). Participants do nothing and -guess what - they have an experience. I mean it is just so WOW!

So in response to your flip comment below, what is the difference between 'surrender' and 'do nothing'?

And if there is no difference, why call it surrender? And if you can do nothing without a master, then all so-called masters are masters of nothing, and people who follow them are fools. (IMNAAHO)

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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 01:44:07 (GMT)
From: nobody
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Test (nt)
Message:
(nt)
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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 17:46:41 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: nobody
Subject: Attention forum admin - vanishing post!
Message:
Catweasel replied to my 'listen you berk' post, with his customary eloquence and unanswerable rhetoric. Now his post has vanished to be replaced by this no-texter from 'nobody'.

Anyone know what's happened?

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 06:03:15 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Attention forum admin - vanishing post!
Message:
Nigel:

Same thing happened to me. Can't you edit your own posts? I recall being able to do that on Forum III. Guess he took a second look at his responses and decided not to leave the 'evidence' lying around.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 06:54:57 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Sounds like Forum Admin edited the post out (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 05:57:30 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Sounds like Forum Admin edited the post out (nt)
Message:
Run:

Granted, but why?? He just said next to nothing about nothing, as usual.

--Scott

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Date: Thurs, Mar 16, 2000 at 09:50:46 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: and more to the point...
Message:
Why would 'Robert de Niro's' posts be allowed to remain when (as I immediately guessed) they are obviously the work of the same semi-housetrained antipodean troll? (the marsupial variant..)
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Date: Thurs, Mar 16, 2000 at 13:54:41 (GMT)
From: Robert DiNero
Email: Cape Fear
To: Nigel
Subject: and more to the point...
Message:
Who you calling a marsupial big nose?
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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 06:33:37 (GMT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Listen you berk...
Message:
If I moved to England, I would definately change my name!
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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 00:32:50 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Robert DeNiro
Subject: Do I know you?
Message:
I am 'enjoying now', as you ridiculously put it (when else is there to enjoy?) very much indeed and you have no reason to believe otherwise, Catweasel. None whatsoever.

Meanwhile, you have missed my point entirely. I didn't ask for analysis or logic. I asked 'What do you DO?'

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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 00:44:46 (GMT)
From: Nobody
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: test (nt)
Message:
(nt)
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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 01:35:35 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: What surrender means
Message:
Cat,

You know damn well what surrender means. So does Mir. You use the word, but you won't come right out and say what you mean by it. So let me say it for you.

Surrender means to remove all doubt from your mind. It means if there's anything between you and devotion to M, get rid of it, let go of it, no matter what it is, even if it's the voice of reason.

May I suggest that you surrender to reason instead, and don't let anything get between you and it, not even your devotion to Maharaji? Hmm?

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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 01:47:10 (GMT)
From: nobody
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: test (nt)
Message:
(nt)
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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 12:51:52 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Why bother coming back?
Message:
Cat,

Mirror uses the word 'surrender' a lot and sees it as crucial. He criticises exes for never having surrendered. I called him on it and asked what he means by the term - what does he actually DO when surrendering. A reasonable question (if not, why not?)

Before jumping all over contributors to this thread you should perhaps bear in mind that you are not Mir and you never use the word surrender.

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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 19:00:17 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Nigel
Subject: The sound of one hand clapping..?
Message:
May I request that whoever is deleting Catweasel's post's from this thread also delete mine. I am worried about the men in white coats coming for me..

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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 19:22:02 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Posts? What posts? You are getting sleepy, Nige
Message:
Nigel,

Listen carefully.

Imagine a long, blue tunnel of silk and chiffon (anyone know what chiffon is, btw?). You are floating down the tunnel with an open heart and a sealed envelope.....

There are no posts, Nigel. There is only one. One love. One life. One Foundation (can you hear them now?) and one master. Give up the duality or at least hpart of it. Separate the duality into pieces you can live with and chew slowly.

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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 01:26:06 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Do I know you?
Message:
Do you get paid by the hour, or are you on a salary?
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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 01:42:44 (GMT)
From: nobody
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: test (NT)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 00:52:45 (GMT)
From: nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Catweasel
Subject: So maharaji's gift of surrender = nothing?
Message:
You said it, not me.
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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 09:23:59 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: ADVERTISEMENT
Message:
Miss those yummy lotus feet?

Couldn't get to India or Oz?

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Ideal for kissing before practising.

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coming soon- LIFE SIZED INFLATABLE MAHARAJI DOLL IN KRISHNA COSTUME!

Ex Premie Enterprises Inc.- Find us on the Web!

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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 01:02:18 (GMT)
From: Jackie
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: that's funny Hal!
Message:
Dear Hal,

That was really funny! I want to buy a pair. I'm just a little put out that you have all this time on the forum but no time to reply to my email when you know I'm anxious to get a reply. Sorry to harrass you but I don't know why you are taking so long.

Yours frantically,

Jackie

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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 15:38:18 (GMT)
From: a-z
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: ADVERTISEMENT
Message:
Is there a hole for screwing the lord?
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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 01:31:35 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: What is this? Elan Vital-Design and manufacturing
Message:
http://www.elanvital.com.tw/news/news.htm

Anybody know if this is another of the guru's businnesses?

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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 04:25:56 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: I don't think there is a connection
Message:
I don't think there is a connection other than the name.

See ElanVital Company Information.

On this page it states: 'The three major shareholders in the company are the leading computer mainboard manufacturer Asustek, a sheetmetal processing company with 27 years of experience named Wai-gin, and the ElanVital staff.'

This company is based in Taiwan and was founded in 1996.

This company uses the term elan vital to mean 'the vitality of creativity'.

m did not come up with the term elan vital.

The term elan vital was used by French philosopher Henri Bergson (1859-1941) to mean the vital force (or life force). He hypothesized this as a source of efficient causation and evolution in nature.

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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 04:50:46 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: G
Subject: I don't think there is a connection either :(
Message:
I was looking for the email address of Elan Vital & mahalard and came across it. Sorry for not reading further. Woman, you know? Laugh and I ...

Do you know that Lard doesn't have an email address available, but a system that allows you to write only? Well, you can paste stuff too. I wanted to send the 'Double Darshan' picture to him, with a note to announce (lol) him that not all of us threw away all the old magazines and 'stuff', obviously. How embarasing mr lord might be... Who's laughing now? he he he

Thanks

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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 05:11:40 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Don't be sorry, if there were a connection he
Message:
would be even richer than he is now. He wouldn't want that, would we? :)

Has anyone tried webmaster@maharaji.org?

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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 02:46:04 (GMT)
From: a-z
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: What is this? Elan Vital-Design and manufacturing
Message:
Ugh, going to that site to try to find what you are pointing at is a disgusting and angering experience.
One qoute from fuck head lord of the universe: 'there is no rich and there is no poor'
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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 19:24:02 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: a-z
Subject: Elan Vital=Maharaji=he's rich...
Message:
well, he wasn't talking about him when he said that, the greedy Lard Hamster. I heard him in a video of last year that is very difficult to be rich, too many problems...
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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 22:21:22 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Yes! Propagation, alright!!
Message:
From the internet humour site, ELK:

Myanmar, too!

Over the last decade I have, due to my job, travelled extensively around the globe. One of the countries I have visited quite often is Myanmar, formerly known as Burma.

Though the government in Myanmar is, due to its human rights records, not very well respected by other countries, especially in the West, the people of Myanmar are one of the most friendly in Southeast Asia. Most of them follow Theravada Buddhism, a quite conservative version of Buddha's teachings.

Over the years I have had a chance to establish friendship with some Burmese and I began to hand out magazines, audios and videos of Maharaji. Though one never knows what will happen or how a person will react once you introduce them to a possibility like Knowledge, the person I gave the material to was very enthusiastic and liked it very much. But not only that, during one of my last visits she told me that she passed around the magazines to her friends and they liked it very much too. They even asked her to get more information.

Since it is not possible to mail printed matter or send audios/videos to Myanmar, I will have to carry them with me on my next visit. So it is a very slow process, but at least some people in Myanmar have finally the chance to listen and hear about Maharaji and his Knowledge.

It may be only a small step, but every journey starts with one.

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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 01:59:22 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yes! Propagation, alright!!
Message:
Why doesn't he just tell them about Maharaji and his knowledge himself? He could do it over the phone in between visits. Perhaps he is shy.
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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 19:32:54 (GMT)
From: a-z
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: when are the knowledge reviews in america?
Message:
and where.
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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 04:38:55 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: a-z
Subject: National phone message # 818-889-0500
Message:
This is the number where you hear a recording announcing the dates of all scheduled events with the Speaker,Lard, 24 hours a day. -the greedy bastard!-

Jaisatshit

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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 21:27:33 (GMT)
From: dv
Email: None
To: a-z
Subject: Miami?
Message:
I heard there was a program in Miami this month- maybe thats one. You won't find them announced on the national program line, they try to keep this stuff as quiet as possible.
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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 02:48:24 (GMT)
From: a-z
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: Miami?
Message:
Can anyone find out the schedule in the US?
Any of you have links into the darkness still?
This is a chance for propagation! Fight the guru shit.com
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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 12:43:25 (GMT)
From: Anarchist
Email: None
To: a-z
Subject: Get the rotten eggs and tomatoes ready
Message:
And be sure to inform all local press and radio/TV stations of the event(s).

We also need ex-premie 'plants' in the audience who will stand up and shout Maharaji down at the given signal.

Don't forget to inform the local dry cleaning shop that there will be a short, stout Indian man in need of their services to remove rotten egg and tomato stains from his suit.

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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 15:40:03 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Anarchist
Subject: What would be the most fun....as in how to derail
Message:
an event....

Sneak as many ex's in as possible. Seat them all over spread through the crowd. At some given signal one starts singing Arti, or maybe Lord of the Universe, or Bhole Shriing. Then the others join in. Make it look as if the crowd has decided to spontaneously return to the seventies. Do you think if we had enough voices we could get a lot of the premies to join us in our song?

I do.

I just think it would be hysterical. Serves no real purpose except to say we could manipulate the crowd that way if it worked.

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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 15:41:53 (GMT)
From: a-z
Email: None
To: Anarchist
Subject: Get the rotten eggs and tomatoes ready
Message:
What do they teach at that 5,000 programming event abljt disruptions and surprises?
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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 16:56:14 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Sorry, Dogg, but it's truer than you can imagine
Message:
In a thread below, Dogg, reacted with great indignation to my accusation that he was just another mouthpiece of unoriginal cult speak:

Jim,
You say, 'all of the answers will be boilerplate parrot talk. Maharaji's spoon-fed you every last idea you have about him even if some of those are contradictory. You think you sound original, Dogg? What a laugh!'

Well Jim, fuck you! I don't take to spoon feeding, in fact nobody tells me what the fuck to say or think! Boiler plate parrot talk? Horse shit!!!! Horse fucking manure!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Jim, you know me. Do you think I can be spoon fed? Do you think anyone can fuck with me? You doubt that I'm not cynical enough? What a crock! I'm Irish Jim, I can think whatever the fuck I want. I'm in charge!!!! As a race we've been fucked with enough to know better.

Dogg,

If you have the guts to see this issue through, I gurantee you're going to learn something about yourself. You have to. The facts are too overwhelming.

Issue Numero Uno: Can Dogg be spoon fed?

Dogg, you can most certainly be spoon fed! So many of your new age ideas (and yes, you've trotted out tons of these suckers here) are nothing more than flotsam and jettsom that stuck to your pant legs when you walked through the aisles of so-called 'spiritual' bookstores. Your whole acceptance of the notion of 'master's, is a good example. Your notion that one can't judge these so-called masters is another. And we could go on. There are so, so many more.

Issue Number Two: Can anyone fuck with Dogg?

Yes, of course. You're a committed long-time consumer in the so-called spiritual marketplace. You've been buying Maharaji's line for years but you buy outside the cult too. You just like to buy, buy, buy. As a result, you're less than skeptical about the entire field. Indeed, you assume the field itself is legit and healthy. You're like a Whole Life Expo regular, Your only 'scrutiny', if I could even call it that, is in which vendor(s) you want to give your money to.

Issue number three: Is Dogg cynical enough?

You might be 'cynical' to some extent in choosing which guru-type you want to give your trust (such as you're able to muster it), but you're certainly not cynical enough to leave the building. There are some basic, basic questions you're not willing to entertain, Dogg. Like what if the entire spiritualty thing is nothing but a deeply-held, cherished myth we've cultivated in so many ways over the centuries? You don't go there and that leaves you, like I say, in the convention centre, walking around, picking up pamphlets, browsing, walking aorund, strolling ....

You say, 'You can't allow your mind to drift where you're afraid to go. And even if it does, there's no way you're going to talk about it openly.' What fucking mind? You think I'm afraid of anything? Mindfulness cuts through anything! I'm a warrior, totally the fuck in charge. I am who I say I am.

Issue Number Four: What fucking mind?

There's not much of a question here, Dogg. You're obviously reacting emotionally. Fine. But think about what I'm saying because, yes, I'm talking about your mind. It's obvious to me that I'm right. You've proven this to me, and others too, I'd imagine, in all your conversations here.

Issue Number Five: Is Dogg afraid of anything?

Yes, for sure. You're afraid of giving up a lot of quaint, pet ideas you've generated through your lifetime. That's apparent whenever we talk about how much of a premie you were or ween't over the years. It sounds like you couldn't handle the truth which is that, for all your marginal involvement, you never really trusted the cult leader enough to play his game his way. Thus, you never really got the full hilt of Maharaji poison. A bittersweet reality for you to come to terms with, I'm sure. Well, you seem to have one hell of a hard time with it!

Jim, you are a character in a story you made up. That's all you are. And what's worse, you don't even play a starring role, Maharaji does. You are a fucking soap opera!

-- Dep

Hey, that's not nice! It's not as if I'm going around insulting you! Sheesh!

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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 20:02:45 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: That's the last time I'm posting here hammered
Message:
Jim,

I said, 'Jim, you are a character in a story you made up. That's all you are. And what's worse, you don't even play a starring role, Maharaji does. You are a fucking soap opera!'

You replied, 'Hey, that's not nice! It's not as if I'm going around insulting you! Sheesh!'

What I said is not an insult, it's a statement of fact. There is no space in your life, no emptiness. You are trapped in your soap opera. Living in the past your life is passing you by. You are trapped Jim!

-- Dep

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 02:23:49 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: You're right there Doggie
Message:
I've heard that Jim still wears platform shoes and loon pants and plays Jethro Tull records.
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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 02:28:23 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: You're right there Doggie
Message:
What are loon pants? Are these loon pants?
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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 20:13:37 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: What a typical, stupid premie response!
Message:
I don't know about the 'space' in my life, Dogg, but as for living in the past, give me a fucking break!

Tell my client in the murder trial I start next week taht I'm living in the past. Tell my band mates and musician friends I love to hang out with that, really, the present's a sham for me. I'm Miss Havisham all over again only this time the clock's stuck at 1973. Tell all the people I love to discuss evolution or current events with. They should know I'm not really here, don't you think?

What you said was stupid! I'm entitled to deal with this demon from my past for all the right reasons.

Can you say anything intelligent for a change? Anything?

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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 23:36:16 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What a typical, stupid ex response!
Message:
I personally think you are trapped in some sort of strange endless loop, a broken record. Hey, but whatever turns you on. Who am I to tell you what to do.

You think Maharaji is the source of your suffering and I think you are (the source of your suffering). IMO when we blame someone else, we give away our power to change.

The Buddha said the cause of suffering is attachment. All I'm suggesting is that you let go a little.

But that's just more new age horse manure, right?

Didn't mean to criticise, it's just that this site gets to me sometimes. I can't help getting emotional about it. I will give you a break.

-- Dep

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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 23:44:30 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Quit talking like some time-warp buddhist
Message:
You think Maharaji is the source of your suffering and I think you are (the source of your suffering).

'Suffering'? Who said anything about suffering? No, Maharaji's just the cult leader who trapped many a naive fool like me and you.

IMO when we blame someone else, we give away our power to change.

Wow! That must be one of the many profound ideas you were never spoon fed! Mind if I borrow it sometime? I've never heard anything like that!

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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 20:25:57 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Sorry, Dogg, but it's truer than you can imagine
Message:
It sounds like you couldn't handle the truth which is that, for all your marginal involvement, you never really trusted the cult leader enough to play his game his way.

This is a really important point, Jim. A lot of fringe premies, myself included, never really dove in. It's so laughable that you were so deep, and are arguing against the cult, while this so-called premie who maybe only got his toes wet, is arguing on it's behalf. I bet even Maharaji would catch the irony.

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