Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 10:22:47 (GMT)
From: Mar 09, 2000 To: Mar 20, 2000 Page: 5 Of: 5


Stonor -:- Thanks to you Jim I'll read more Bucke! -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 23:04:10 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- You're kidding, right? Tell me you're kidding -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 23:10:37 (GMT)
__ __ Stonor -:- LOL - You CAN be a lot of fun Jim! -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 23:24:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Sure. Dawkins -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 23:28:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- I'm curious -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 21:22:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- I'm curious -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 00:02:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Some philosophical questions -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 05:13:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Some philosophical questions -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 16:41:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Thanks for your post -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 18:41:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- If I may jump in? -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 14:23:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ g -:- Sure -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 18:02:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Sure! -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 16:44:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Dawkins endorsement seconded (nt) -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 15:39:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Dawkins endorsement seconded (nt) -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 06:15:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- don't take me too literally... -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 19:24:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- just wanted to add -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 07:29:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- don't take me too figuratively... -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 06:09:20 (GMT)
__ Stonor -:- Dass/Bucke + -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 23:06:52 (GMT)
__ __ Runamok -:- Dass/Bucke + -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 01:00:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ Stonor -:- Why Bucke it? -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 06:15:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Runamok -:- Why Bucke it? -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 09:05:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Why Bucke it? -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 20:14:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- also... -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 20:19:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ G -:- Pir Vilayat Khan -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 19:18:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Pir Vilayat Khan -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 21:46:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Pir Vilayat Khan, multiverse, hypnosis -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 00:15:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- hypnosis/suggestibility/egregores -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 03:14:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Hey Runamok! Get on down! -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 03:22:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- Hey Runamok! Get on down! -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 05:04:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Apologies for lack of clarity -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 15:15:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Khan and Miragey -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 14:51:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- G and Stonor -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 16:03:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Jim, Jerry, Run, G, Nigel, Scott T and anyone else -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 02:12:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- comments -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 04:32:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- comments -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 05:17:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- I don't buy any of that shit, Stonor -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 03:38:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- FYI - info on the book I haven't named -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 16:25:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- PS to Runamok -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 02:24:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- a nonsequitur from astrobiology -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 03:35:35 (GMT)

Happy -:- More DLM antiques -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 19:01:44 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- More DLM antiques -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 19:21:33 (GMT)
__ __ Happy -:- The meditation study: details -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 17:39:58 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- any contribution welcome! -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 20:35:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ Happy -:- I'll send them -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 17:43:03 (GMT)

cq -:- The Mirror and the Vampire -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 18:56:22 (GMT)
__ mir -:- My response...from a thread below -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 01:23:32 (GMT)
__ __ Stonor -:- Sounds like... -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 04:58:09 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- My response...from a thread below -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 17:04:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ mir -:- Thanks for your hopes and concerns Jer but... -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 18:26:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- Thanks for your hopes and concerns but... -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 17:02:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ SB -:- How does it work, please, tewll me? (nt? -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 02:30:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Well, have some more -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 21:37:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ mir -:- Well, have some more -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 00:50:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Well, have some more -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 01:37:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ mir -:- Well, have some more -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 01:52:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Well, have some more -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 03:03:36 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- The Illusion of surrendered control -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 14:49:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ archive -:- The Illusion of surrendered control -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 03:41:03 (GMT)
__ __ Hal -:- Delete maha from meditation -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 07:51:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ mir -:- No thanks -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 18:18:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Hal -:- surrender -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 04:41:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- No thanks -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 01:32:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ mir -:- No thanks -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 01:58:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- No thanks -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 03:07:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Way -:- To Hal and Mir -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 20:04:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ mir -:- To WAY -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 20:32:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Way -:- Back to Mir -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 21:07:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ mirror -:- And back to Way -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 22:42:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Simple question for Mir -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 17:09:55 (GMT)
__ __ SB -:- YUCK!!!! nt ROFL -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 02:12:17 (GMT)
__ Mu -:- Mirror mirror in the wall who's the easiest of all -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 22:43:51 (GMT)
__ Hal -:- Absolutely,superb post. Many thanks. (nt) -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 20:11:19 (GMT)

Jean-Michel -:- Rawat's really blissed out sometimes! -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 18:21:49 (GMT)
__ The REAL A Premie -:- Rawat's really blissed out sometimes! -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 03:08:16 (GMT)
__ sb -:- MIR: COME AND SEE THE DARSHAN PICTURE!! -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 02:29:11 (GMT)
__ Anika and Friedle had -:- DOUBLE DUTCH DARSHAN!!! NT -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 00:55:24 (GMT)
__ Stonor -:- Pictures really can be worth 1000 words! Thks (nt) -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 23:15:21 (GMT)
__ mantis -:- Makes me want to puke! I did that shit! -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 22:49:20 (GMT)
__ Mike -:- I got a beauty of a sunburn waiting in that line -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 19:54:58 (GMT)
__ Happy -:- Double-darshan -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 18:26:40 (GMT)
__ __ Gregg -:- Phillip K. Dick -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 22:13:59 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- Wonder what that experience did to M's ego? (nt) -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 19:35:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- Wonder what that experience did to M's ego? (nt) -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 01:49:54 (GMT)

janus -:- d l m -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 17:55:00 (GMT)
__ Happy -:- d l m -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 18:44:55 (GMT)
__ __ janus -:- d l m -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 12:41:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ Happy -:- d l m -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 18:02:50 (GMT)

Djuro -:- Knowledge review -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 16:27:05 (GMT)
__ SB -:- Knowledge review? DARSHAN BABY! ! -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 01:12:27 (GMT)
__ cq -:- Knowledge review -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 19:40:24 (GMT)
__ DOD -:- Knowledge Reviews Are Pathetic -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 18:03:30 (GMT)
__ __ JB -:- 'Meditation is not -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 19:29:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ DOD -:- 'Meditation is not for me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 20:48:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ DJURO -:- 'Meditation is not for me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 16:26:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- 'Meditation is not for me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 06:43:31 (GMT)
__ Mike -:- SO.... let us in on it, Djuro -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 17:41:50 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Thanks for the laugh -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 16:44:12 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- Thanks for the laugh -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 17:43:45 (GMT)
__ __ Djuro -:- Thanks for the laugh -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 16:47:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ Angry -:- Thanks for the laugh/Appreciated -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 17:02:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Then you're very pathetic -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 17:01:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- U think you are so smart -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 20:37:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Uno -:- Maharaji's own special meditation techniques -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 17:24:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Maharaji's own special meditation techniques -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 19:42:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Djuro -:- Then you're very pathetic -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 17:13:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Does M like meditating? -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 18:52:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ a little curious -:- Does M like meditating? -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 13:37:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Does M like meditating? He doesn't even KNOW -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 03:06:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ cynthia -:- Does M like meditating? He doesn't even KNOW -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 06:28:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Does M like meditating? He doesn't even KNOW -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 19:25:07 (GMT)

Major League Management -:- You're FIRED! -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 16:07:23 (GMT)

Jim -:- Please, Lord, don't surrender to the Japanese -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 05:33:43 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- The Lord only surrenders to his devotees' love -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 14:25:55 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- He must be pissed .... -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 20:33:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ DOD -:- MAHARAJI'S LATEST HOUSE THANK YOU NOTE -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 21:21:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Alice the Goon -:- MAHARAJI'S LATEST HOUSE THANK YOU NOTE -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 22:40:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ DOD -:- MAHARAJI'S LATEST HOUSE--WHAT'S IT WORTH? -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 00:28:23 (GMT)
__ __ Mike -:- HIS knowledge?????? -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 16:20:27 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- And I actually FELL for that???????????? -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 15:41:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- Like I said: biggest liar the world has ever..(nt) -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 20:48:16 (GMT)

pierre latruce -:- how come whenever I post -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 05:21:49 (GMT)
__ DOD -:- how come whenever I post -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 15:23:04 (GMT)
__ __ pierre latruce -:- how come whenever I post -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 23:49:46 (GMT)
__ Runamok -:- Is it just me? -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 10:41:45 (GMT)
__ JHB -:- how come whenever I post -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 08:38:04 (GMT)
__ __ DJURO -:- how come whenever I post -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 16:19:33 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- maybe I can help -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 08:59:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- maybe I can help -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 20:53:15 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Bullshit, Pierre -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 05:28:05 (GMT)
__ __ Ben Lurking -:- Bullshit, Pierre -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 20:45:06 (GMT)
__ __ Annie -:- Bullshit, Pierre -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 09:30:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- That's completely backwards, Annie -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 02:31:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ pierre latruce -:- re: completely backwards -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 05:47:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Are you psychic, Pierre? -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 19:18:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ SB -:- Bullshit -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 02:06:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ Susan -:- Annie, -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 15:40:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ DOD -:- Bullshit, Annie -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 15:14:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mike -:- Wrong, Annie -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 14:55:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ pierre latruce -:- Annie the drunken dwarf -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 00:05:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Don't waste your time but do this -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 02:55:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Yes, you're right -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 00:11:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ JHB -:- What's Special about Maharaji? -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 11:38:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- Seminars -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 11:01:53 (GMT)
__ __ pierre latruce -:- Bulls, Pierre -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 06:24:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ DOD -:- Who says you need to be humble. Take your cue -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 00:39:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ Cat -:- Liar, Liar Jimbo...it definetly happens...Censor -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 06:28:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- I didn't say it didn't -- like when YOU got turfed -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 20:57:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ purrrrrrrr -:- Liar, Liar Jimbo...it definetly happens...Censor -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 03:00:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ pierre latruce -:- how come wheneva I post -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 12:17:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Fuck you, Pierre -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 12:22:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- He probably thinks the reverse arrow -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 15:05:34 (GMT)

G -:- Elan Vital - Revenues and Expenses -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 03:39:02 (GMT)
__ DOD -:- Elan Vital - Revenues and Expenses -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 15:19:56 (GMT)
__ SB -:- Elan Vital - Revenues and Expenses: HAHAHAHA nt -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 04:56:22 (GMT)


Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 23:04:10 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Thanks to you Jim I'll read more Bucke!
Message:
My response was rendered inactive shortly after posting (and I didn't get a chance to post another), and so I'm making sure you don't miss it. Hope that's OK.

Jim wrote:
For a doctor, Bucke was pretty unscientific. If I recall (and it's been a few decades), his
theory is that our senses only evolved very recently. The color red isn't mentioned until
later in the bible so we probably didn't see that end of the spectrum back in the old
testament days. Then he jumps on the usual bandwagon chain of so-called 'enlightened'
historical figures, adding a few odd favorites of his own (e.g., Bacon, in drag as
Shakespeare). And all of this culminates in the crowning glory of human creation to date:
Walt Whitman.

Come on, Stonor! What's to take seriously?

My response:

I too found it quaint - that was one of its appeals to me - but also very sincere. I looked through it about 10 years ago, and did not read it from cover to cover (I have a 1923 edition (his photo is signed) that I picked up for $5-it's not in good condition - I hesitate to handle it too much).

Medical science, like everything else it seems, has its good side and its bad. Around Bucke's time (his book was first published in 1901) the treatment in psychiatric institutions consisted mainly of restraining some patients, sedating most, and giving hysterectomies to 'hysterical women' on basically the request of a husband, and I'm sure there were other delightful treatments as well (I'm no expert on this). 'Science' was introducing the modern miracle of electro-shock therapy. As I wrote above, Bucke worked as medical superintendent of the Asylum for the Insane, London, Canada and initiated major (positive) changes in the treatment of the patients. One was stopping the routine practice of performing hysterectomies and another was providing more social activities, like music, singing, and outdoor games. (Did you read the thread before posting?)

I didn't spend much time on his discussion of evolution and colour - just stashed it in the back of my mind as an interesting concept. Have you found anything more up-to-date on some of the ideas he puts forward? I'd be interested to know. Around 20 years ago, I read something about an experiment with a variety of fish at different points on the evolutionary scale. They gradually introduced poison into their aquarium. The most highly evolved fish began to die first and, you guessed it, the most primitive fish just kept on going. Bucke suggests this type of concept in terms of mental illness, if I remember correctly.

Again, from a posting above, what I particularly like about Bucke, was that he recognized the 'cosmic consciousness' of not only of the obvious (Gautama, Jesus, Mohammed...), but also of the less so (Dante, Blake, Whitman...), and then continues with otherwise unknown people, often giving only initials - identifying what is commonly shared, and transmitted by them, to varying degrees of course. I've often felt the same way, and would add a few of my favourites as well : Gibran, Ibsen, Lessing, Campbell...

I like the fact that he suggests that gurus and religions are not the only path to 'enlightenment'. In fact, what I find interesting in thinking abbout this is that his personal favourite and 'mentor', Whitman, is the antithesis of m among many other gurus and religious leaders. His explanation for his choices is, IMO quite valid. Could be that at the time you read it your frame of mind was different than it is today. I find it significant that for some reason his book came to mind while at this forum.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 23:10:37 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: You're kidding, right? Tell me you're kidding
Message:
Again, from a posting above, what I particularly like about Bucke, was that he recognized the 'cosmic consciousness' of not only of the obvious (Gautama, Jesus, Mohammed...), but also of the less so (Dante, Blake, Whitman...), and then continues with otherwise unknown people, often giving only initials - identifying what is commonly shared, and transmitted by them, to varying degrees of course. I've often felt the same way, and would add a few of my favourites as well : Gibran, Ibsen, Lessing, Campbell...

You can't be serious. I don't know what to say if you are. I wouldn't even know where to start.

By the way, I was confusing Bucke and Julian Jaynes on one point. Jaynes ('The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind'), who I once tracked down at Yale to tell him how cool I thought his book was (not to mention impressive a title when trying to pick up a certain kind of impressionable young girl) was the one with the funny idea about our senses evolving very recently as in the case of the red end of the colour spectrum. But that's another story altogether.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 23:24:39 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: LOL - You CAN be a lot of fun Jim!
Message:
Jim? Almost speechless? I doubt that very much.

No! I'm not kidding. But don't worry, I'll be careful about taking any of it too seriously ;o)

You were right - Bucke did get into the colour stuff and more (with charts too). Looks like I'll finally have to look into that bi-cameral mind stuff as well. But don't worry, that won't be for a while, it's not even on one of my shelves yet. Send me any more leads on the topic, I'll follow them sometime!

Got any suggestions for who else to add to my list?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 23:28:01 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Sure. Dawkins
Message:
If you want to learn something, Stonor, why not read The Blind Watchmaker? Probably the most important book I can think of in terms of getting a grip on who we are and how we got here.
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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 21:22:07 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I'm curious
Message:
Are you out to expose Maharaji's and some other versions of 'God', or are all concepts of 'God' and spiritual consciousness on trial - at least to your mind?
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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 00:02:22 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: I'm curious
Message:
I think all religion and spirituality's fake. That's an opinion I formed a few years back after learning about evolution. But Maharaji's particularly in my bad books because he was the one who exploited me for eight years.
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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 05:13:46 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Jim and Stoner
Subject: Some philosophical questions
Message:
How would you describe your philosophy?

Do you think our universe, i.e. the space-time continuum we live in and everything in it, came from absolute nothingness?

What do you think matter and energy are made of, or do you think that a meaningless question?

What do you think of existensialism? Many years ago, I tried to read Nausea by Sartre. It was one of the few books I couldn't finish. I found it way too depressing and insane. Ever read it?

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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 16:41:06 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Some philosophical questions
Message:
Good, but complex question G. .................. 42?

That's for me what the Vedanta and the scientific/empirical approach to questions of this sort boil down to: a meaningless, cold fact. Where do you go from there? Or, as I formulated as a young teenager, if this is all there is to it, why not drop the bomb now? Where is my purpose/meaning in this? They are not practical to me. Wherever we and the universe come from is IMO a moot point to some extent, because we are here now. For me the mystery is not a how, but more a why.

Merging with the One and Being (Advaita Vedanta) can't be what we have hands hearts and minds for, at least that's the way I see it. (Isn't this what m prescribes?) At least a few things come to mind here: a quote in the beginning of the Grapes of Wrath about 'all the tiny hands of God' (referring actually to raindrops if I remember correctly - but all creation and the creator are one, as Advaita posits), and a sculpture by Carl Milles 'The Hand of God', which is a and open hand, with a man standing with one foot on the thumb, and another on the forefinger, head looking upwards, right arm outstretched, hand open. Milles apparently explained the message behind the work as 'God the Father said to the young man: See the world and then make something worthwhile of your life.' Huxley wrote a book called 'What are you going to do about it? The Case for Constructive Peace (1972) - same concept.

Despite m's attempt to by-pass or obliterate what Ouspensky describes as the first initiation, thinking, exes at least have made it over that threshold. As most of you doubtless know, despite the corruption existing in religions, Hinduism describes 4 paths to 'cosmic consciousness', which may be followed in different sequences by different people etc. Why has m defined only one? It flies in the face of his own traditions, if not his families 'line' of 'thought(?).' m has a ninth grade education? By what standards?

I do read things which come to me. I don't know when I'll read 'The Blind Watchmaker', for example, now that I have the title in my mind I'll wait and see if and when it comes into my physical path. As three people here have now concurred with Jim as to its value, my guess is that I will read it within a year or so. But it sounds like western science's Occam's razor is performing a soulectomy blind (correct me if I'm jumping to conclusions from the snippets I've read off the web guys, I love learning, especially from my own mistakes).

So many different people from different times and places have tried to answer the question you have asked, so many threads to follow - I'll include here 'Three in the Morning' from Chuang Tzu (Thomas Merton's translation) because I could go on forever (and I have other things to do).

When we wear out our minds stubbornly clinging to one partial view of things, refusing to see a deeper agreement between this and its complementary opposite, we have what is called 'three in the morning'.
What is this 'three in the morning?'
a monkey trainer went to his monkeys and told them:
'As regards your chestnuts: you are going to have three measures in the morning and four in the afternoon.'
At this they all became angry. So he said: 'All right, in that case I will give you for in the morning and three in the afternoon.' This time they wer satisfied.
The two arrangements were the same in that the number of chestunts did not change. But in one case the animals were displeased, and in the other, they were satisfied. The keeper had been willing to change his persong arrangement in order to meet objective conditions. He lost nothing by it!
The truly wise man, considering both sides of the question without partiality, sees them both in the light of Tao.
This is called following two courses at once.

To illustrate, I'll quote an e-mail from a friend:

In the May,1996, issue of Astronomy magazine, theoretical
physicist Michio Kaku discusses quantum cosmology, a
theory seeking to combine Einstein's relativity with the
findings of quantum physics. According to this new theory,
our universe may be just one of an infinite number of
universes which bubble forth as quantum fluctuations from an
endless, eternal ocean of nothingness. According to Kaku:
'Creating universes out of nothing may seen to violate
cherished conservation principles, until we realize that it takes
no energy to create a universe. If the universe is closed like a
bubble, then the energy content of its matter is positive, while
the energy of its gravity is negative. The sum is exactly zero...
Thus it takes no net energy to create new bubbles, which are
constantly being created in the sea of nothing.'

To which I replied:

Reminds me of The Secret Life of Nature, Tompkins

'To these two investigators the basic constituent of matter, an
ultimate physical atom, or UPA, smaller than a proton, smaller
by far than a quark, appeared as 'a little miniature sun,' dual in
nature, positive, but with a negative mirror image. Ovoid in
shape, each consists of ten closed stringlike spirals made up of
progessively 'spirillae.' Its ever-diminishing spirillae consist of
millions of dots of energy whirling in and out from what the
investigators called a fourth-dimensional astral plane, entering
the male UPA and exiting the female. 'Bright lines' or 'streams
of light' that linked the UPAs were called by the theosophists
'lines of force.'

His response:

That's interesting. However, the first quote (that I sent) is 'hard' physics, while
this one sounds like some kind of hallucinatory phenomena.

My response, again from Tomkins:

'Leadbeater's and Besant's observations were made through a siddhi form of
perception, which was 'described in the second century B. C. E. by the Indian
sage Pantanjali in his Yoga Sutras.'

'They made and recorded their observations, including drawings in 1895, and
hard physics has only recently confirmed their findings, 'leading Dr. P. K.
Iyengar of the Indian Atomic Energy Commission to finally give the
theosophists a modicum of credit when he remarked, 'The top quark
discovered recently substantiates that occult chemistry is a phenomenon which
exists and should be accepted as such.'' - in 1994.

I have read some existentialism, but didn't like Sartre's 'Nausea' either - but it seems to be what we are generally living, if we don't take Kierkegaard's, another existentialist's (I think it was him) 'leap of faith.' (No, not the one Mir describes, which is more like jumping off that Brooklyn Bridge as far as I'm concerned)

I'll stop here. (But I'm planning another post to Mirror with a reference to Dostoevski in the near future). I hope I've somewhat answered your question.

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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 18:41:46 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Thanks for your post
Message:
I'm a recent ex and I'm reevaluating my viewpoints.

I've been thinking about the viewpoint that the world is just an illusion, like m said '... as far as the eye can see, it's all illusion'. I've bought into that way too much, in an escapist way. Sure, things are impermanent, but an illusion? what does that mean? The world is certainly not a total illusion, my experience of it is real. If I deny my actual experience, I'm in trouble.

I think it's good to be balanced, there is some value in not being too 'attached' to things, but being too 'detached' is perhaps even worse. I think I need to get more 'into the world' and 'of the world' in a healthy way, to get more practical.

If I'm standing on a road and a Mac truck is heading my way, I'd better not think 'Oh, that truck is just an illusion, and I'm not really this body, so I'll just let this truck run me over.'

Perhaps m has used that concept to get premies to give their 'illusory' money to him. It doesn't seem that he actually buys into it himself.

An interesting thing is that the concept of a multiverse (multiple universes) was thought of thousands of years ago.

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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 14:23:32 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: G
Subject: If I may jump in?
Message:
Do you think our universe, i.e. the space-time continuum we live in and everything in it, came from absolute nothingness?

Nobody knows just yet, although it does seem preposterous that it sprung from nothingness. But if time and space are characteristics unique to the universe, wouldn't that suggest that there could be no 'before' it?

What do you think matter and energy are made of, or do you think that a meaningless question?

Matter is made of energy. Energy can be neither created nor destroyed, which I find a dilemna, because if energy can't be created, and it exists within our universe, which was born some 15 billion years ago, you can't really say that's when energy came into existence, because that would insinuate that's when it was created, or at least began, but it can't be created, which suggests that it has no beginning, so....? Kind of like a zen koan, isn't it?

I don't know much about existentialism, so have no opinions on it.

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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 18:02:51 (GMT)
From: g
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Sure
Message:
It does seem to suggest that there was no 'before' it. I don't know what to think of it.

The idea that time is not an absolute is mind-blowing, it seems so absolute, and yet time being affected by gravity has been verified.

The 'Big Bang' theory has good evidence for it, as it predicted measurements made of cosmic background radiation. 'Big Bang' is really not a good term for it, it is more an 'expansion of space' theory.

Stephen Hawking proposed a theory (Hartle-Hawking cosmology) that 'before' 10-43 second in history, time 'had' an imaginary value (as in i, the square root of -1, is an imaginary number). With this theory, he says that time is finite going back in history, but unbounded ('The boundary condition of the universe is that it has no boundaries.'), therefore there was no beginning point in time, therefore no need for a Creator. I believe he is also saying that the universe will return to the same state as 'before' the Big Bang, so time is circular.

A problem I see with this is that imaginary numbers are not less than real numbers, so there would still be a beginning point to real time. Another thing is that he says '...if one knows the state of the universe in imaginary time, one can calculate the state of the universe in real time.', but leaves out details about this 'state'. Another problem is that he sees this theory as the way things really are, rather than as a mathematical model, there is a big difference.

See The Beginning of Time.

Regarding energy, what I'm getting at is: what is energy? is it just itself (than what is it) or is it made of 'something'. Is there an essence?

Regarding the conservation of energy, consider the following:

The first law of thermodynamics is often called the law of the conservation of energy (actually mass-energy) because it says, in effect, that, when a system undergoes a process, the sum of all the energy transferred across the system boundary--either as heat or as work--is equal to the net change in the energy of the system. By convention, heat transfer to the system from its surroundings is usually taken as positive (heat transfer from the system therefore being negative), and work done by the system on its surroundings is generally considered positive (work done on the system being negative).

from Laws of Thermodynamics

They say that the net energy of the universe is zero. There have been observations of two particles of opposite energy coming seemingly out of nowhere that a short while later annihilate each other. The thing is, what causes these particles to manifest?

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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 16:44:39 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Sure!
Message:
Hi Jerry, just posted my answer and noticed your response (which wasn't there when I started). Have you heard of the fourth dimension?
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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 15:39:53 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Jim
Subject: Dawkins endorsement seconded (nt)
Message:
Irrefutable arguments therein.
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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 06:15:26 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Dawkins endorsement seconded (nt)
Message:
Nigel:

An irrefutable argument is a statement of faith, and is pointless and unproductive in science. See Karl Popper. Has Dawkins discovered a new religion or something?

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 19:24:27 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Scott T.
Subject: don't take me too literally...
Message:
Hmm, can an argument be irrefutable..? Well I am no philosopher but I believe in an objective reality. An organism is extant or extinct. A woman is pregnant or not pregnant. I am conscious or unconciousness...

Some say nothing is ever proven beyond all possible doubt. Fine. Perhaps I should have talked about the 'balance of probabilities' or something. In these terms the Blind Watchmaker offers probably the safest interpretation of the evoltionary evidence to date. And it does so using arguments to which I have yet to see any creationist (or other breed of 'teleological' theorist) provide a convincing counter.

Better?!

(BTW: Popper makes a few 'absolutist' assertions of his own in that famous essay on scientific progress people never seem to tire of quoting.)

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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 07:29:18 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: just wanted to add
Message:
Nigel:

Just wanted to add this thought that's been turning over in my head. The task of creationists and other folks of a teleological bent is haunted by some formidable handicaps. Clearly evolutionists have at least one major problem, and probably two. First, they can't really deal convincingly with the 'something out of nothing' situation, or at the later stage 'life out of non-life.' It's not that they can't come up with plausible theories; it's just that plausibility is unsatisfying. Second, they have this downright ugly problem of first cause and the limits of reduction and infinite regress. In the Santa Fe experiments someone wrote the original simple set of rules out of which complexity emerges. So, how did the first rule happen to get there? What kicked things off?

But the creationists have an even tougher set of problems, because they have to: 1. find anomalies in the evolutionist's account of the 'historical' evidence of life in its many manifestations; and 2. have to provide an explanation that not only accounts for the anomaly, but is consistent with the viewpoint that they have ensconced in the back of their brain. They have a complicated intent that's pulling in two directions. I should think that this combination of constraints is all but impossible to overcome. Even if you are an agnostic teleologist you often have an ulterior motive that governs your efforts. Fuller, for instance, believed that the existance of extra-terrestrials was a nifty explanation for his version of man's early history. So, he came up with a theory about how the reigning species of each era were remotely introduced into earth's ecology by manipulating the basic chemical components electronically. Of course, there are more anomalies in that theory than the original one, so if you're a teleologist you have to get 'down and complicated' right off the bat. It makes you highly vulnerable.

So, my approach is just to needle the evolutionsts to make sure their motives stay pure... and trust that through the method they'll come up eventually with a story that's 'something completely different.' Well, it's neither lifeless evolutionary beginnings nor is it 'mom did it while the kids were napping.'

I like the current cognitive theories and experiments that seem to have uncovered something they call 'human nature.' For instance, I like the notion that humans instinctively pursue 'social capital.' It seems just as plausible to me that the universe itself has a 'nature' that incorporates a general phenomena that we humans recognize and define as life. Under the right conditions this component of the nature of the universe simply emerges. One has no more compulsion to explain how this generic phenomenon 'got here' than we have to explain the behavior of prime numbers. Indeed, the two might be related. Make of it what you will.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 06:09:20 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: don't take me too figuratively...
Message:
Nigel:

I need to read the book. I've asked around the campus here, and people don't seem to hold Dawkins in very high regard. Many people have never heard of him. Of course, this is a Public Policy Institute but most of them have heard of Gould, and are fairly knowledgable about Geertz and the anthropology theorists. The problem is, I'm just swamped with stuff I need to read in my own field. I'm quite familiar with the nifty theories about 'emergent phenomena' coming from the Santa Fe Institute, but those guys are incapable of telling a decent story. Maybe Dawkins is a better story teller. Anyhow, that business about how 'life' emerged from 'non-life' seems to be the nexus, and I can't see how anyone will ever get beyond the level of telling a good yarn. It's enough.

--Scott

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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 23:06:52 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Dass/Bucke +
Message:
I've been thinking about the invalidity of transplanting the 'cultural framework of Gurus' elsewhere - thanks for answering questions I haven't asked. I think there's more to question about this, but I'll let it slush around in my mind a while longer. Although I've enjoyed aspects of Ram Dass's 'personality' (IMO Be Here Now is a quintessential flower children document - and a lot of fun to look through), I've also felt ,in looking into it a little more and reading your comments, that Ram Dass is a rather smugly cavalier about his 'trip', and flippant about some of the fallout. You've certainly got valid reason not to like the guy much.

I've also been thinking about the 'trust' question and its parallels in other relationships. Although there have been times when I've had no choice but to trust someone else, including strangers, I've used my head, intuition, opened my heart and trusted in 'God ' at the same time. Some of the situations have been amazingly wonderful, and some pretty wild, but I'm still around to tell the stories.

The laws seem to be changing slowly (even if in Japan they seem to be grinding gears). Responsibility and accountability has been hitting the Catholic Church (finally). And I'm convinced that sites like these will accelerate and expand the process.

I've never been attracted to Blavatsky - don't know why , and I have no Leadbeater either. Books either say 'read me', or not, and I tend to find something interesting in most of them, even if only to understand a bit better where others are coming from. Guess we're panning for gold, and are gradually learning to differentiate it from fool's gold.

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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 01:00:00 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Dass/Bucke +
Message:
Yup, Ram Dass is someone to write up as a loss, particularly for an ex-premie. _Be Here Now_ completely set me up to fall into M'ragey's greedy clutches.

His main claim to fame as a 'writer' or lecturer was in defining the concept of divine intervention from a guru (OK that's 'G'uru) who is defined as somehow more you than you yourself, a truly losing propposition for those of us who met Prem Pal Rawatt and followed him.

It's not that I never learned anything from Ram Dass or Rawatt. It is that the Brooklyn Bridge is not owned by the taxi driver who I gave thousands of dollars to in order to buy it. See my point?

My limited interest in Bucke is sparked a bit by your description of his historical role in humanising psychiatry (which I was not aware of). Interventions like the one you describe completely laudable, noble actions. However, I did get rid of the book last year and had never read it too thoroughly. I can't give you too much more on it (although his discussion of color in Hindu scriptures was interesting. I just couldn't find enough interest in the details of the book.

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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 06:15:25 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Why Bucke it?
Message:
Yes Runamok, you are making very clear what line you are drawing, and it's a distinct one. It's one thing to be inspired, or even 'taught' in the best sense of the word, it's another entirely to be told that this is 'The Way', and I here what you are describing coming from Mir, virtually verbatim down below.

I had always somewhat wondered about whether or not I was missing something by being closed to the possibilities of this; I easily turned down initiation from Pir Vilayat Khan. I greatly enjoyed using the excuse they gave me - I couldn't promise that I wouldn't smoke grass again. Pir Vilayat couldn't even look me in the eyes, and his lecture was juvenile IMO. And I had no problem not responding to the Guru Ma 'Come to the ashram' video. Although I have had a number of yoga teachers into the Kripalu organization started by Guru someone, I would break ranks and bow towards the sun when that picture worship happened. When pushed, I told them that I could never bow to a picture of a man, they weren't too pleased (or friendly), but they were even less thrilled when it came to light that their dear married Guru Dev had had relations with a number of female devotees, some married as well. Bottom line was, I didn't trust them instead of my heart/mind/intuition. I'm not feeling badly about 'not opening my heart to them' at all anymore after a couple of weeks reading here and going to related sites!

There seems to be a recurrent theme of submitting to someone else's control, and unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be limited to these contexts, but rather systemic in most cultures. Competition and obsession with winning probably fit in here as well. Any comments from anthropology?

Learning about Bucke's everyday work came, as I mentioned through viewing the film (Beautiful Dreamers), which coincidentally enough, was directed by one of my old film professors and I was invited to a screening by another one I ran into in the street - I probably wouldn't have heard of it otherwise, but I did manage to tape it off the TV a few years ago, so I know it's out there somewhere.

For others dropping in on this, the only reason why I've continued the discussion of Bucke, is because his concept of our evolving consciousness and how it manifests is the antithesis of the guru trip.

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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 09:05:26 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Why Bucke it?
Message:
Well, like I said, if had a humanizing effect on medicine, he's worth some respect. But I'm not going to rush out and buy another copy of that book anytime soon. It'll have to be grace if it needs to be read by me.

I took a class with the Kripalu guru guy way back when (while I was a premie) and I thought he was OK. I didn't get any worship stuff or weird personality shit at the time.

This would have been around '75. I dunno if it changed or what. The guy retired and his organisation continues without him the way I heard/read about it. Sounds reasonably progressive for a guru.

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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 20:14:13 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Why Bucke it?
Message:
I don't rush out and buy much myself. (just hope you didn't get the impression that I was recommending that)

And yeah, they generally seemed to handle it quite well as an organization, but I did see signs of some over the top 'worship', but not all devotees or contexts are the same. Kripalu seems to focus on Hatha yoga, not Bhakti - I think that helps, and I like the fact that it is bringing yoga to more people through their teacher training program. Hatha yoga has been great for me no matter what the teachers' backgrounds.

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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 20:19:36 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: also...
Message:
He also put out a great book of yoga postures.
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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 19:18:31 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Pir Vilayat Khan
Message:
I was initiated into the Pir Vilayat Khan group shortly before I got into m.

I remember telling one of their honchos, the guy who initiated me, that I was going to 'become a premie'. When I said that, I didn't know what it really meant. Anyway, he was not pleased and said 'some people say I have a hypnotising voice' and went on to try to intimidate me, when that didn't work, he said 'I can see you are not asking for permission.' I was thinking how arrogant he was assuming I needed to ask permission; little did I know what m would be like and what m would do to me. This was at a retreat I went to. Khan was talking against m at that retreat, I guess because I was being 'stolen' from him. Also, there was a premie at the retreat who said 'we're all one', a sufi woman replied sarcastically 'we are eh?'. I was warned about the one-sidedness of premies. I didn't listen.

When I was initiated into Khan's sufiism, there was a mantra involved (if I remember correctly). Also rolling your head around, then jerking it up, all the while saying 'la allah ha, ill la, la hoo' (sp). They do this repeatedly.

At the retreat, there was a lot of dancing. There was some dancing in a circle where only men were allowed. They were into building up an group 'energy' or 'power'. There were co-ed showers at this retreat. I got sick at the retreat and had to leave early. Before I left, a woman was telling me something like 'you don't know who your guru is'.

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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 21:46:44 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Pir Vilayat Khan
Message:
Hi G,

I appreciate your sharing more of what I seem to be perhaps lucky to have missed.
Just a few thoughts/comments.

If I'm standing on a road and a Mac truck is heading my way, I'd better not think 'Oh, that truck is just an illusion, and I'm not really this body, so I'll just let this truck run me over.'

Yes, where do you draw the line? - it can be nihilistic without balance.

Perhaps m has used that concept to get premies to give their 'illusory' money to him. It doesn't seem that he actually buys into it himself.

Yes, endless contradictions. My saying: Inconsistency wears thin.

An interesting thing is that the concept of a multiverse (multiple universes) was thought of thousands of years ago.

Any reference for this? Hindu scriptures? Just curious.

There may be nothing new under the sun (suggests somethings are relatively permanent, doesn't it?), but the number of people aware of certain concepts does seem to be increasing. Are you the small 'g' too? Interesting thoughts you posted above - can't claim to understand it all, but I get the general gist. Thanks.

I remember telling one of their honchos, the guy who initiated me, that I was going to'become a premie'.

Interesting that you use the word 'honcho.' I didn't mention them, but his 'honchos' at the lecture I attended gave me the creeps. They seemed more like surly 'bodyguards/bouncers' than spiritually enlightened beings. Another vibe I didn't like.

When I said that, I didn't know what it really meant. Anyway, he was not pleased and said 'some people say I have a hypnotising voice' and went on to try to intimidate me, when that didn't work, he said 'I can see you are not asking for permission.'

Strange that he would admit with pride to the possible role of hypnotism on this 'spiritual' path. Have you heard of any studies looking into the possible use of hypnotism and suggestibility in the development and perpetuation of cults? I asked this in the 'baby pranayam' thread down below as well. I've also wondered about the role of mantras. I've always stuck with focusing on the breath, and I've noticed how many organizations/religions have insisted on their mantra or a specially assigned one, and become irritated by any question of 'Why?' I've also read of something called' egregores.' This term is not in any dictionary I have, and the book I read it in is long, dense, and without index, so I can't put my finger on it immediately (although I am re-reading it and will make a note the next time around). It had to do with thought forms that take on a life of their own or something.

I just did a brief search and came up with some interesting leads ( I think related, although more narrow in application than in the text I read). Here's one of them:

Group Mind

I've also wondered whether or not my early history of athsma, and sitting outside alone under the stars being forced to focus on my breathing, has had a part in my resistance to some of this kind of approach. (so many questions,so often without answers)

At the retreat, there was a lot of dancing. There was some dancing in a circle where only men were allowed. They were into building up an group 'energy' or 'power'.

I've read somewhere that Sufi 'whirling is a way of inducing a 'false' ecstasy that is actually not good. Have you seen 'Meetings with Remarkable Men?' Dances for both men and women were shown. I learned a bit of one of them, and it seems to enhance mental awareness and acuity rather than reduce it.

'you don't know who your guru is'.

I want to comment on this, but I'm not sure how. It's kind of a strange statement - as though you have a pre-assigned guru somehow. I can understand how it stuck in your mind. Almost riddle-like.

Two things in particular bothered me about his lecture. He made a lot of references to the Virgin Mary, I thought in attempt to reach what he assumed to be a largely Catholic audience. And he told a story about being on a silence and having to go into town by car. They were stopped by the police, who seemed to be quite annoyed with the writing out of responses to their questions (giggle giggle). I felt it served nothing but to put a bad public face on spiritual practices and found it quite inappropriate - maybe I have no sense of humour.

Thanks again for your posts!

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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 00:15:18 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Pir Vilayat Khan, multiverse, hypnosis
Message:
I'm the small g, that was a typo.

I think the talk about a multiverse is from Hindu scripture(s), something like lots of universes being born from a cosmic womb or a cosmic Nothingness. I might have read about it at a theosophy web page. Multiple universes might also be mentioned in the Bhagavad Gita. It's hard to tell because people are translating into English and might be taking liberties with the text. Of course, it can be pointed out that these are vague notions compared to modern physics theories, and may not exactly be the same thing.

I don't know much about studies about cults, I'm a recent ex. But many people feel that hypnotism and suggestibility play a big role. I think someone even said to me that I was hypnotised, of course I dismissed it. One confusion regarding hypnotism is that it really involves surrendered control. It was pointed out in a thread that this is an illusion. I'm thinking that something related to hypnotism, at least something in the same ballpark, does happen in cults. I think 'Maharaji' does use some hypnosis-like methods, like slow motion seagulls, slow motion waves, clocks ticking, slow and repetitive stuff like that. Also cult speak is maybe related to the cue words that hypnotists use, for example 'Master' and 'that love'. All he has to say is 'the Master', and all sorts of prior conditioning ('Perfect Master') comes into play, while making it difficult for 'aspirants' to catch on to what is happening. Many concepts are kept vague, maybe to make it hard to think clearly about what is being presented.

I agree about the role of the specially assigned mantra, one that's individualized. Both TM and Khan's thing are into it, and neither explains how the mantra was really picked. Both groups made it out that there was a connection between your practice and their group. Them picking out the mantra, which is given magical meaning, intensifies this idea of a connection.
'Maharaji' on the other hand has a one size fits all set of 4 techniques, but does make it out that he has everything to do with it. And the front page of his web site www.maharaji.org looks like a hypnosis wheel, kind of like saying, all ye who come into my world, prepare to be hypnotised.

Suggestibility, yes indeed. And the repetitive nature of a mantra (or the breath, in the wrong context) can be used by the group.

I haven't seen 'Meetings with Remarkable Men'. I have read about how the Sufi stuff has a bad physical effect, and what is being experienced is physical.

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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 03:14:52 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: G
Subject: hypnosis/suggestibility/egregores
Message:
I'm beginning to be convinced that hypnotism, suggestibility and 'groupmind/egregores' are definitely involved in cults as well as other things. Ouspensky defines the hynotic state as the state of maximum suggestibility. (his italics) Think advertising as well, especially when TV is said to induce a state during which you burn fewer calories than while you sleep - talk about passivity. There are even mantra like expressions such as, 'image is everything, 'just do it', etc. Personally I also think that this is the maya/illusion that is clouding our minds and hearts. Ialso note that some have mentioned that it's difficult to remember what m has said during a 'video event(?)', and as well, you mentioned the confusion at the PVK retreat - illness alone? When I have a minute, I might see if neural surfer has anything on this.
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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 03:22:17 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Hey Runamok! Get on down!
Message:
You fountain of interesting eclectic info (and lyrics?)! Any comments to add on the topic above? ( the Laing/Rajneesh links etc., have been great posts!)
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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 05:04:38 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Hey Runamok! Get on down!
Message:
Is this a quote from James Brown? I'm getting down.

Well, I bought a copy of _A New Model of the Universe_ recently and was completely bored- irrevocably so, as I was with _Beezlebub's Tales to his Grandchildren_ when I browsed it in the same bookstore. Ouspensky mentioned a couple of facts of slight interest to me (for example, hatha yoga being reducible to 50 postures) but didn't elucidate on them one iota.

I have fairly good memories of the Sufis and Pir Vilayat, but it's not really stuff that has much interest to me now. Khan has a book that I thought was good about music. The story you told sounded like he was saying M'ragey was full of shit ('you don't know who your guru is') unless I misunderstood the order of events or the emphasis.

I meditate and practice some eastern physical disciplines but am usually bored by general eastern philosophical discussion. I do what I do because I like it. Some areas of history and technical aspects of eastern studies interest me occasionally, but frankly I burned out on a lot of it as a premie. There are just too many ripoffs out there, too much BS to wade through.

The neural surfer (http://www.mtsac.edu/~dlane/) is one place to get a lot of input in these areas. (Actually you might head straight for the index listed below to avoid a long download of a surfer and racous rock music and a disclaimer in his voice urging you to cut up whatever you like on his site.)
The main pages take awhile to download but is easier to navigate than it used to be. There is a lot of good stuff there.

Lane combines a healthy skepticism for cultism with a respect for an individual's desire to pursue meditative disciplines. He has numerous books/articles posted, probably best accessed from his index (http://vclass.mtsac.edu:940/dlane/masterindex.htm).

There are various forums
(http://vclass.mtsac.edu:940/dlane/forums.htm). Included among these are several relevant to ex-premies (Radhasoami Studies, Occam's Razor, Selfish Gene, Neural Surfer, and more). It's easy to find a conversation with exes from several different groups in one forum and quite interesting. It's a quick way to avoid the whatever intellectual inbreeding that takes place from being a relatively small group of participants here.

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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 15:15:25 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Apologies for lack of clarity
Message:
It was a play on the 'Get on up', but thanks for getting on down here to this thread.

Sorry if it was a confusing post. And it seems that I didn't make the order of events or emphasis clear. I was responding to some of G's post (sections in italics).

Is the book you read about music written by Pir's father, Hazrat Inayat Khan called 'The Spirituality of Music?' I have it and agree - it's very good. I've never been able to get into Gurdjieff's books at all either, however I did go to a very special piano concert of his (and de Hartmann's) Sacred Music on Friday night. The two musicians playing, Laurence Rosenthal and Charles Ketcham, have been involved for a long time with a project to make all four volumes of this music available in both sheet music and on CD (under the The Gurdjieff Foundation, which was bequeathed the rights to this music by de Hartmann's wife). The last couple of volumes will be published this summer. An interview with Rosenthal (one of the two musicians above) playing some excerpts can be heard at CBC's 'Tapestry' website. Rosenthal also arranged and orchestrated the score for Peter Brook's film 'Meetings with Remarkable Men.'

My real question was whether or not you knew off-hand if Lane discusses the possible role of hypnotism/suggestibility/groupmind/egregores in 'cults' at his site, or if you know anywhere that does. I will check it out myself though.

After meditating last night, I was able to find the section, in another book I've mentioned, which discusses egregores. Although I haven't finished re-reading it, it discusses the 'egregore' of communism as an example of what happens without 'temperance.'

.

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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 14:51:35 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Khan and Miragey
Message:
Actually it was a woman you told me 'You don't know who your guru is.' I think she meant that Khan was really my guru.

Khan in a lecture was saying that 'the Master' (or whatever term he used) doesn't come for the masses. He said a couple of other things that I took to be related to Miragey. I don't remember if he actually said 'Guru Maharaji ji' or not, but I'm pretty sure he was talking about him.

I've visited the neural surfer but it sounds like I should check it out more.

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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 16:03:59 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: G
Subject: G and Stonor
Message:
Let's see, yup that book by Pir's dad would be it.
dad. It's been a long time.

I've heard the Gurjieef (sp?) music but it didn't do that much for me. I'll give it another listen if I get a chance and the interview.

All the things you speak of are natural questions for people discussing cults in a skeptical manner, although I'm not familiar with the term 'egrogores'. Generally, a rhetorical signpost like that will indicate a specific author(s) and a general philosophical drift. I guess you need to let us in on who is using the term and what they are saying to elicit further comment.

The Sufis I knew were people who were bridges to the outside world while I was premie, people who gently coaxed me to leave M'ragey which I appreciate. I didn't have that much contact with them, but I did actually sleep in a sufi ashram a few times.

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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 02:12:48 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Runamok, G, Nigel, S
Subject: Jim, Jerry, Run, G, Nigel, Scott T and anyone else
Message:
At 'Neural Surfer' I read one of the personal accounts of a man, Iranian, who had become a devotee of Sai Baba, and it seemed that he was already set-up to be taken in, and that there was no need to actually hypnotize him per se, although considering his state of suggestibility, and receptiveness, it's easy to see why he became for a while more and more deeply under SB's influence. (again I ask about the role of anyones ordinary context in creating at least the first level of maya, or threshold that needs to be crossed over into a greater consciousness. There may be a variation in the degree of the control/power trip of these gurus, but I still believe that it is the same basic principle in play. I'll go back to Rumi, 'Lovers of God have no religion but God alone.' This for me is the fundamental problem with all forms of religion - they set up a framework where we question or replace our personal/individual intuition and experience. We may all be on a path towards the One, but 'Know thyself' seems to be an often repeated first step.

What I retained from what I read of Ram Dass, was that when you are ready for the guru, he will come to you, ie, it's not really under my control. I have remained open, but 'gurus' have only come to me so far through serendipitously found books, and everyday people from all walks of life who have shown a special quality of gentle humility and compassion for others.

I'm noticing that infallibility, or irrefutibility seem to be a popular criteria for 'worshipping' another man, or nominating one for having achieved 'cosmic consciousness,' if I understand what Jim, Nigel and Scott are discussing above. This seems, in the final analysis, a major motivation for many here who first got involved in m's 'knowledge,' maybe seeking to achieve a comparable kind of superior powers over their fellow men-reaching an absolute 'thesis' or argument. From Ouspensky p.294:

In ordinary life we think by thesis and antithesis; always and everywhere there is 'yes' or 'no,' 'no or 'yes.' In thinking differently, in thinking in a new way, in thinking by means of signs of things, I came to understand the fundamental errors of our mental process.
In reality, everywhere and in every case there were not two but three elements. There were not only 'yes' and 'no,' but 'yes ' and 'no' and something else besides. and it was precisely the nature of this 'third' element, inaccessible to the understanding, which made all ordinary reasonings unsuitable and demanded a change in the basic method. I saw that the solution of all problems always came from a third, unknown, element, that is to say, it came from a third and unknown side, and that without this third element it was impossible to arrive at a right solution.

Are you seeking to be right, to find the right, 'irrefutable' position or to understand?

An everyday example of this came through a friend who his a professor in psychology, specializing in multivariate statistics. Of his editor (of a book on the same topic), he once said that he looked up to him like God, and asked if I did not feel similarly of someone in my field. I felt a reflexive shock at his statement, and in response to his question said that there were many people whom I greatly admire and respect, and even look up to to some extent, but could never consider as god-like. At a later date, I actually had lunch with this man and his 'god', and had a wonderful conversation with his editor, learning that although he might be a 'god of statistics' in some people's minds, that in fact, like myself, he was far more interested in human interactions than statisically or scientifically proven 'facts. My friend, BTW, was not terribly involved in the conversation, and our friendship ended abruptly soon after. Those of you who still have a copy of Ouspensky's 'New Model of the Universe' lying around (sorry, it has been my 'out of the house' reading since before I began posting here, and it seems to continue synchronistically touching on issues that are being raised here, which is why I am quoting him so much), check out page 297. In discussing the experience of feeling at one with Brahma, or Nothing, or 'whatever it is', he says:

At these moments I even regarded it as strange that we could take upon ourselves so terrible a responsibility as to bring 'I' into everything and start from 'I' in everything. In the idea of 'I,' in the sensation of 'I,' such as we ordinarily have, there was something almost abnormal, a kind of fantastic conceit which bordered on blasphemy, as if each one of us called himself God. I felt then that only God could call himself 'I,' that only God was 'I.' But we also call ourselves 'I' and do not see and do not notice the irony of it.

'As above, so below,' (Tabula Smaragdina- the Emerald Table of Hermes Trismegistus) does not suggest to me that we are supposed to aspire to 'above' and deny the validity of 'below.'

I welcome all comments and feedback on my musings.

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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 04:32:49 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: comments
Message:
I like to talk about philosophy, but when it really comes down to it, I think love, peace, and happiness are more important. Not that it is always possible to feel good. Some important things are to be aware, to live a good life, to love ourselves and others, to try to do good.

As to what Ouspensky said about 'I', well, I just don't know.

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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 05:17:33 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: G
Subject: comments
Message:
I really don't like Ouspensky much. That people have spiritual and psychic experiences seems to be true. That they can talk about them intelligently, I'm not sure.

For one thing, I would like to see more scientific exploration/discussion of these things. I don't think much is happening in these areas. There was more activity in the 70's with biofeedback and statistical analysis of yogis as well as some parapsych research. If it's going on much now, I'm not hearing about it.

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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 03:38:41 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: I don't buy any of that shit, Stonor
Message:
Stonor,

I think all that 'spiritual' word play and hair-splitting is useless. Worse, confusing and useless. I'm much more interested in evolution and other parts of science than any of that stuff. I'll look forward to your response to The Blind Watchmaker once that book 'comes to you'. But in the meantime, be assured that I think ALL guru types are frauds. The most that can ever be said for them is that, in some cases, they're self-deluded as well.

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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 16:25:53 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Runamok and G
Subject: FYI - info on the book I haven't named
Message:
The book I didn't name is 'Meditations on the Tarot, A Journey into Christian Hermeticism' by Anonymous - Element Inc., originally written in French and completed in 1967. It is currently out of print, but will be re-printed within the next few months. My copy came to me (of course) second-hand. I have reason to believe later editions have an index (and may also have a forward written by Jennings), as they seem to have 670, rather than 658 pages. Despite the reference to 'Christian', it is a book which draws on all spiritual traditions, as well as others, and is easily one of the most enlightening and loving books I have ever read.
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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 02:24:56 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: PS to Runamok
Message:
Not all of Gurdjieff's 'Sacred Music' that I've heard so far seems to do that much for me either, but one piece, 'Holy Trinity,' has motivated me to plan to buy the sheet music and learn how to play it, so that I can experience it more fully, after not having really played the piano in about 30 years. There is another piece Rosenthal played on Tapesty which was filled with an exquisite anguish that I also want to play (almost the other's opposite), but unfortunately I haven't been able to identify it yet. Apparently this 'Sacred Music' is based on the harmonics of the octave.

I also understand why you would have good feelings about the Sufis in the context you describe - I would too. And not all my feelings are bad about any religion, or at least individuals who have come from the context of different religions.

I will try to expand a bit on 'egregores,' but reading the book I mentioned was the first time I came across it. I put 'egregore' into a search engine and found some very 'evil' stuff, but I haven't looked into it thoroughly yet.

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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 03:35:35 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: anyone
Subject: a nonsequitur from astrobiology
Message:
McGill astrobiologist professor Hojatollah Vali says, 'If I took an electron-microscope image of a brain cell and a spectroscopic image of our entire universe, and if I put those images side by side, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between them. The coincidences are just too uncanny.'
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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 19:01:44 (GMT)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: All, esp. JM?
Subject: More DLM antiques
Message:
Hi all, especially Jean-Michel: perhaps something for your site?

I've found, in my drawers, a non-published study, perhaps a Masters' Thesis (?) from the Univ. of Northern Colorado (Greeley, CO), dated 1973: the author is Susan Garcia-Swain, and the title: 'A Physiological Study of the Meditative State Known as Knowledge'.
She measured blood pressure, respiratory rate. Found effects which she claimed beneficial.

Then, another study, by Thomas Pilarzyk (1978): 'The Origin, Development, and Decline of a Youth Culture Religion: an Application of Secterianization Theory.' Published in Review of Religious Research, 20, 223-43. It's all about DLM.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 19:21:33 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Happy
Subject: More DLM antiques
Message:
Thanks Happy,

There are a few sociological studies in our Uni library involving DLM too but nothing that looks at physiological effects.

Hmm, I wonder whether Ms Garcia Swain used a control group of non-premies applying the Knowledge techniques. Or a second control group of non-meditating, but relaxed, non-premies. If she herself was a premie, I suspect the answer is 'no' to both; if the answers are 'yes', I suspect the findings are not the sort that M would wish to see made public.

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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 17:39:58 (GMT)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: The meditation study: details
Message:
Nigel,

no, as you are guessing, the study did not include a complete design (no control group, for instance, Ss served as their own controls). And it was clearly conducted buy a premie herself, eager to prove the meditation being efficient (and, it had indeed some physiological effects, as meditation of all kinds usually has). The tables and figures are poorly made, and hardly worth trying to scan, but I'll quote three parts of the study ('objective'. 'method', and 'Discussion and conclusions'), in order for you to get an idea of it:

*********************************************************

OBJECTIVE:
For hundred of years it has been hypothesized that meditative techniques enable the practitioner to experience 'higher' states of consciousness which msy relieve physical and mental stresses. In the past decade there have been many physiological studies of a variety of techniques; for example, R. Keith Wallace, transcendental meditation; Kasamatsu and Hirai, Zen meditation; Wenger, Bagchi and Anand, yoga meditaiton to name only a few. It is the purpose of this study to begin an investigation of the meditation, Knowledge, taught by Satguru Maharaj ji, fifteen year old perfect master.

METHOD:
The measurements recorded were blood pressure, pulse rate and rate of respiration by use of a physiograph developed at Baylor University's medical school Department of Physiology. There were eight subjects (Table 1) who each meditated an average of two hours daily on the Knowledge. Each subject served as his own control. The subjects had an average wait of twenty minutes to enable them to come to rest equilibrium prior to monitoring. After being set up for monitoring, five minutes of recording were done, then the subjects sat quietly with eyes closed for fiteen minutes, the last five minutes of which data was again recorded. The subject was then instructed to meditate until asked to stop by the investigator (thirty minutes). During this time of meditation, two readings of five minutes each were recorded at ten minute intervals.

Each subject was taken thorugh ten trials to enable him to become acclimated to the laboratory environment, particularly the recording apparatus, and to ensure accurate data. The data was collected over a three-four week period (July 11-August 2, 1973).

DISCUSSION AND CONCLUSIONS:
Worldwide, the practitioners of the Knowledge are said by its propagators, Divine Light Mission, to number over six million. I am not considering a sample that can be called typical or representative of the group as a whole, no sample so small could ever be fully representative of so large and diverse a population. However, this sample, I think, is not greatly different in background, ways of living and point of view from other memebers of the group as a whole in the same age range and in the Western world.

Practice of the meditation known as Knowledge is simple in that it requires no elaborate paraphernalia or environment. For this reason it is relatively easy to study under controlled conditions. The meditation simply involves an awareness of the so-called 'primordial vinration', the Word, which is revealed to any individual requesting it by Mahatmas, close disciples of Satguru Maharaj ji. Ideally, awareness of the Word is experienced constantly, i.e., during all daily activity the Word is remembered and is the exclusive focus of attention for a minimum of two hours daily when the individual sits in undisturbed meditation. This is the only drawback to controlled study of the Knowledge; the subjects found it difficult to sit quietly with eyes closed without meditating for the initial fifteen minutes of control period. The subjects, generally, had no problem meditating under laboratory conditions. (The only exception was Subject D who indicated to me that only her first meditation felt like 'real meditation'. Her data on pages 3, 5 and 7 show that she experienced the greatest changes in her first trials. However, she also mentioned some personal conflict which makes meditation difficult for her and it is likely that it was this personal factor rahter than the experiment that upset her subsequent meditations.) The data show slight increases in the readings during the control period as often as they show decreases; these increases could be due to some effort necessary to remain in a non-meditative state. I make this suggestion because
The mean difference in systolic blood pressure for the group during the control period was an increase of 1 mmHg. During the first 15 minute meditative period the mean decrease was 11 mmHg (ranging from 9-14 mmHg) and after a total of 30 minutes of meditation the mean decrease was 16 mmHg (ranging from 13-19 mmHg). Diastolic pressure did not significantly change, only 1 mmHg change in eighty trials.

The mean group value for respiratory rate during the control period remained the same. There was a significant mean decrease during the first 15 minutes of 6/minute (ranging from 2-14/minute) and a mean decrease of 7/minute (ranging from 3-all of the subjects indicated to me at various times during the study that it felt somehow 'unnatural' not to be on the Word.
15/minute) at the end of 30 minutes.

The control period for pulse rate indicated a mean increase of 1/minute. During the first 15 minutes of meditation there was a significant mean decrease in pulse rate of 12/minute (ranging from 6-16/minute) and a mean decrease of 15/minute (ranging from 8-18/minute) after the total 30 minutes of meditation.

The changes and probabilities for these changes in blood pressure, rate of rspiration and pulse rate during meditation on the Word all suggest specific, significant changes altering the function of the autonomic nervous system.

As these changes were rapid, the data indicate that within a short time (15-30 minutes) the Knowledge produces rest and relaxation. These physiological changes may have practical application in clinical medicine, e.g. relief for hypertensive patients, decrease of anxiety related diseases, etc. Subjective information form the individuals involved indicates complete elimination of the use of non-prescriptive drugs and all but one subject had, also, completely discontinued the use of tobacco and alcohol since beginning regular experience of the Knowledge.

The foregoing information and the fact that Knowledge is readily available and quickly learned (2-5 hours is the average time required to reveal the Knowledge) it is suggested that further investigation of this meditation should be done with regard to its viability as a means of alleviation of drug abuse and for the improvement and maintenance of phyhsical and mental health.

*************************************************************

This is, in essence, the main findings in Susan Garcia-Swain (1973): A Physiological Study of the Meditative State Known as Knowledge. Non-published study conducted at the University of Northern Colorado (Greeley, CO), at the Department of Biological Sciences, under supervision by Dr. E Richards.

**************************************************************

As far I know, this is the only study of physiological effects of practising 'the meditation known as Knowledge'...

What an interesting (and funny) mix of scientific and premie jargons from the early 70s! Like this sentence: 'all of the subjects indicated to me at various times during the study that it felt somehow 'unnatural' not to be on the Word'....

This is, in a sense, a quite historical document. From a period that was, and will never appear again.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 20:35:25 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: any contribution welcome!
Message:
email me if you want my snail mail address........

jmkahn@club-internet.fr

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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 17:43:03 (GMT)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: I'll send them
Message:
... and I still have your address, from previous sendings!
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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 18:56:22 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The Mirror and the Vampire
Message:




Mir,



cq wrote:


If you love somebody - set them free(nt)from Rawat



 


mir responded:


First of all
I don't think for a second you guys are doing what you are doing out of love for humanity.



Second, I partially agree with you. If someone continues to practise Knowledge without experiencing its inherent joy and liberating merits, they are better off to leave it. And you are right in saying that for those this applies to, the whole thing was probably oppressive.



What I do not agree with you about is that because you didn't experience something positive as a result of practising it others must not either. That is extremely self-important and narrow-minded of you.



I tell you honestly, and with as much respect as I can for your personal experience, receiving Knowledge from Maharaji was the most positive and liberating thing I've ever done. I continue to experience every day I wake up the freedom he showed me within. And contrary to him being an idol I am forced to worship, he is a resource that I rely upon in my journey to inspire and clarify. My respect and gratitude to him is ENTIRELY motivated by that, and not because of any claims by anyone of who he is or isn't supposed to be.



But I also understand that if you were to admit there really WAS something positive that people are experiencing it would be difficult for the egos of people like you to swallow.









Mir,



Let's get down to the nitty-gritty of this whole business.



IMO, the problem is all inside your head .... (whoops - off to a bad start there), ...



ahem, …the problem is partly due to a tendency that we humans have of wanting to 'demonise' those who don't agree with our point of view. Need I say that it also betrays a weak standpoint, and appeals more to mob instinct than to rationality?



My own motives in wanting to reveal the Maha for what he really is have more to do with self-respect, rather than a 'love of humanity'. You'll get the angle if you think more along the lines of Roger Cook or Anne Robinson (Watchdog - UK television) - who delight in exposing con-artists who get rich off the backs of vulnerable people. Not only that, but, in the case of the Maha - endangering their emotional and mental stability and independence as well. Getting out of a cult's mind-set is not all plain-sailing, and can leave scars deep in the psyche. (Tell me about it).



So, as regards the motivating factor for most of us exes posting here, while 'love of humanity' might be going a bit too far, I think many are driven at least by a sense of social responsibility. We don't want to see him still getting away with the scam.



Of course, to you it's not a scam at all (or at least doesn't yet seem to be) - and your only 'explanation' has to be that there must be something lacking in us if we are unwilling to recognise the benefits that meditation can bring. But that's
a big if. Sure there are some exes who are very anti-everything to do with meditation/spirituality/religion etc. But for every one of those who has been soured by putting their trust in a fallible human being (who BTW did claim to be the Messiah) - there are as many who can still respect the spirit of questing that first led them towards Maharaji. We're not all hard-nosed anti-theist existentialists.



The premise (or rather presumption) you appear to be coming from is that (in your mind) only someone who was incapable of gaining benefit from meditation would dare to find fault with the Maha. I'll ignore the veiled insult there (if there was one) - but are you seriously suggesting that all the hundreds (in some cases thousands) of hours that ex-premies have spent in meditation were void of experience? That we meditated 'under protest' as it were? Or that we were just 'going through the motions'?



Where in my short (nt - no text) posting do you find any suggestion that meditation has nothing to offer either myself or others??? ('self-important and narrow-minded' though I might sound to you - you're still reading into my post an argument that just was NOT there).



But back to the crux of the misunderstanding between premies and exes in general>



'If the meditation is good - why criticise the teacher?'
say the premies.



'The meditation isn't the main issue' say some exes (though some do criticise it as well as the Maha) 'it's the teacher - who portrays himself as being as important as the meditation.' (if not more so).


 



'But if the meditation works ...' say the premies ...



And round and round we could go til we either give up in exasperation, or start flaming each other for evading the issue. ('difficult for the egos of people like you to swallow' ... really, Mir, I sometimes wonder why you call yourself Mirror)



As far as M goes, the crux of the matter for me is this: If Maharaji really wanted to do something truly beneficial for his followers, (and that also might raise his estimation in the eyes of post-cultists like myself), he could start by encouraging premies to be LESS reliant on himself. The fact that he is more concerned with instilling his own cult of personality into the mind-set of ... well, yes, pretty impressionable people (I used to be one too) rather than encouraging them to find TRUE freedom, speaks volumes.



 


P.S.


I'm glad to have written this, 'cos it's just become a whole lot clearer to me that what the Maha is is simply nothing more than a leech. A big fat, trust-taking, spirit-sucking vampire of a LEECH!




Hah!




that felt good.



 


 


(Well, Mir, narrow-minded enough for you? you … old … space-case)


 



Memo to self:


does 'demonising the enemy' weaken him or me more? Is mob-instinct the way?



 




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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 01:23:32 (GMT)
From: mir
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: My response...from a thread below
Message:
'The meditation isn't the main issue' say some exes (though some do criticise it as well as the Maha) 'it's the teacher - who portrays himself as being as important as the meditation.' (if not more so).

There are two pieces to the meditation puzzle. One is the techniques, and the other is, for lack of a better word, the thrust. The barrier between you and your existence is vast, though the experience often does appear to be closer than it really is. You know what I mean? You get to the threshold and getting ready to cross and you say, “Well that was easy, why don’t I think about this”. And you are catapulted like a rubber band right back into your thought-stream before you even know it. And it seems the closer you get to stepping across that threshold the more taut the rubber band becomes.

So sure, anyone can now pull the techniques off the web thanks to the efforts of you guys. But what provides the thrust? For that the Master teaches a few tricks that work. It has to do with learning to surrender. Now, now...I can hear the collective moan from here. No really, surrender is critical to the process! But surrender to what? In one way it doesn’t matter...but it has to be real.

I know from experience you just have to surrender to get across that threshold. Without it there is just not enough thrust. And I will be so presumtuous to add, if you think you have crossed it without surrender, you are no doubt kidding yourself.

There you have it folks. The word on why the Master is important to the experience of meditation.

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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 04:58:09 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: mir
Subject: Sounds like...
Message:
Mir wrote:

I know from experience you just have to surrender to get across that threshold. Without it
there is just not enough thrust. And I will be so presumtuous to add, if you think you have
crossed it without surrender, you are no doubt kidding yourself.

There you have it folks. The word on why the Master is important to the experience of
meditation.

Sounds like you've been hypnotised Mir:

'By being subjected to special kinds of treatment a man can be brought to a particular state, called the hypnotic state. Although there exists a school which asserts that any man can be hypnotised at any time, facts tell against this. In order to be hypnotised, to fall into a nypnotic state, a man must be perfectly passive, i.e. know that he is being hypnotised and not resist it.'

That's from Ouspensky, but I'm sure someone else around here has looked into the possibility of hypnosis with regards to m's 'power'. 'Perfectly passive' and not resisting sound like surrender to me. What do you think mir?

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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 17:04:29 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: mir
Subject: My response...from a thread below
Message:
The barrier between you and your existence is vast, though the experience often does appear to be closer than it really is. You know what I mean?

No, I don't know what you mean. My existence is right here, right now. Why would you think your's is somewhere else? That's just a concept you picked up from Maharaji.

I really hope you wake up and free yourself from M, someday, mir. I can't help but think you'd be much better off. I really, really, believe that. It's just a matter of you snapping out of it and having the guts to walk.

Good luck.

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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 18:26:49 (GMT)
From: mir
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Thanks for your hopes and concerns Jer but...
Message:
Why would I walk away from something that works? If it didn't work for you, you are right to walk away. If it ever stops working for me, I will walk away. But after 25 years of going through the full spectrum of highs and lows, comings and goings, and beliefs and doubts, it just keeps going, going, going.

If you really care, instead of wishing me to walk away, why not wish for my sincerest happiness...and I'll do the same for you.

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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 17:02:18 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: mir
Subject: Thanks for your hopes and concerns but...
Message:
Mir,

You say: 'Why would I walk away from something that works?'

Why do you persist in equating walking away from M with walking away from meditation? It still works without him. If anything, it's easier to go into the experience without any kind of belief structure.

I have a feeling that, one day, you'll find your sincerest happiness. And it won't be dependant on any teacher of meditation.

In fact, your attachment to the guru might just be the very thing that's holding you back from finding your true freedom.

Is it the 25 year's investment of time, energy and belief that holds you? Like, to admit that you've wasted energy on merely boosting M's massive ego-trip for all these years would be too much to handle?

Feel free to open up on this. (You're less likely to get flamed for being honest and vulnerable)

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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 02:30:53 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: mir
Subject: How does it work, please, tewll me? (nt?
Message:
mn
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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 21:37:46 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: mir
Subject: Well, have some more
Message:
Mir,

I guess if Maharaji was helping you to find your own strength, I would accept that he 'works' for you. But he's made you completely dependent on him. To me, that doesn't work. He's like a father who never wants to see his baby take his first steps, but would rather that he crawls all his life.

When has Maharaji ever given you the slightest indication that you can make it without him? He dreads that you would ever think that way. Well, Mir, I'd like to believe that you CAN make it without him. If you don't think so, that's your hangup. You've been around this forum long enough to know that plenty of people are doing just fine without him. Why not you?

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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 00:50:04 (GMT)
From: mir
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Well, have some more
Message:
Give it up man!! You're worse than these Christian groups who have to proove everybody else in the world wrong to proove to themselves that they're right. You just aren't wise enough, smart enough, astute enough, or omniscient enough to know what does or what does not work for me.

Hey listen, I don't care at all if you guys get along fine without Knowledge. For me to assume I know what's best for you would be incredibly arrogant of me. Go! Enjoy your life...I mean it. But get off this kick you've gotta prove me wrong in order to be right. It's tiresome.

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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 01:37:06 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: mir
Subject: Well, have some more
Message:
I'm just saying you've made an idol of M for you to worship and rely on. That's all. That's how I see it. I think I'm right. And that's how I'm going to say it. Sorry if you don't like it.
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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 01:52:28 (GMT)
From: mir
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Well, have some more
Message:
You can say you might have made him an idol. But you can't say I have done so. You can say there is the potential to make him a figurehead like any other religious icon, such as the Pope, the Aytollah, the Aga Khan, the Dalia Lama, et al. But you can't say that is what he is to me.

As I said, you're just not that smart. Neither am I to know what he was for you. So I take you at your word.

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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 03:03:36 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: mir
Subject: Well, have some more
Message:
Mir,

It's almost impossible NOT to make Maharaji into an idol when you consider all the idolatrise (I hope that's a word, but you know what I mean), talk about him, which he especially uses. Haven't you read any of the quotes, by Maharji, posted regularly on this forum? How can you go forward as his student, after he's said all these things about himself, without making him into an idol? I say it's impossible.

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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 14:49:24 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: mir
Subject: The Illusion of surrendered control
Message:
Mir,

That was no explanation at all.

As a premie I would use the word 'surrender' in the sense you are using it. But no longer (I am relieved to say). An armchair interest in neuro- or social psychology is all one needs to start questioning the concept. In my case active research into 'altered states' has left me convinced beyond doubt that no matter how powerful or overwhelming your experiences the 'thrust' you speak of has no external source. Merely that by subtle, largely unconscious processes your mind and brain have a capacity for generating a 'surrendered' state - and will respond to whichever outside stimulus has become associated with those sensations via processes involving acquired beliefs and conditioning. The nervous system ('heart' included) provides the feel-good factor while the mind supplies both the 'thrust' and the religious spin.

You should ask yourself two questions: can you put your hand on hypothetical heart and say that (a) your state of 'surrender' is qualitatively or quantitatively different from the 'surrendered' states reported by people who claim no privileged Knowledge, who acknowledge no God and follow no master?

Or that (b) your experiences of the 'eternal' do not arise from the unconscious auto-stimulation of neural reward systems?

Some time ago I posted the following to the forum:
>

A few years ago the psychologist Susan Blackmore suggested a framework for investigating classes of paranormal experience which, she argued, were no more than normal experiences, albeit interpreted as paranormal. ('Illusions of causality'.) She identified five types of illusion: illusions of memory; illusions of form; illusions of connectness; illusions of pattern and randomness and the illusion of control.

(I'll spare you the full details of the first four, though I will happily provide these via email to anyone interested.)

'The illusion of control' describes a person's perceived internal control over external phenomena where personal control is limited or impossible. In one of several studies demonstrating this effect, office workers were sold lottery tickets in two experimental conditions: in one they chose their own ticket, in the other they had the ticket allocated to them. It was found that in the 'choice' condition, people were significantly less willing to resell the ticket - the implication here being that the act of choosing was felt by the purchaser to improve the chances of winning. Paranormal believers are more prone to this illusion than non-believers. Susan Blackmore ran an experiment using a computerised coin-tossing game, designed such that the outcome of a series of coin-flips was sometimes - unknown to the player - in their control, and sometimes beyond their control. Believers had a more pronounced tendency to feel they were in control of purely random outcomes.

You don't have to be a paranormal believer to experience this illusion. Whenever I watch a televised football match involving the world's mightiest football team (MUFC), I am very reluctant to leave the room to go fetch a celebratory vintage from the cellar - not because I might miss something, but because I always have this feeling that without my own personal willpower psyching things along and generally keeping the ball in the opponents' half of the field, the lads might fall apart and start letting the goals in...

Blackmore's five categories between them provide alternative explanations for every reported paranormal effect - except she has left one out: The Illusion of Surrendered Control. This is the direct inverse of the Illusion of Control. The believer experiences the outcomes of their own actions as being the work of a mysterious external force or higher power.

If you have ever taken part in a seance where messages seemed to come through, you might know how compelling is the effect. Although the assembled parties are collectively responsible for moving the wine glass around the table, even selecting letters to spell out words, each feels they are merely following the glass rather than pushing it. Or take the popularity of pendulums among dowsers and other new-age practitioners. Notice how the weight is always small and the thread is short enabling dramatic movements in the weight to occur through a twitch of a finger. Not only will the witness be impressed but the practitioner is also persuaded there is an outside force at work.

In the classic hypnotic setting, 'susceptible' people act out the role of surrendering their willpower to the hypnotist. There is no good evidence that the hypnotic subject at any point loses personal volition - though many clearly believe this to be the case simply through their imagining this to be the case. The illusion of surrendered control again.

Does any of this ring any bells?

Remember the oft-repeated message: 'Surrender to that Grace' - usually combined with 'Just make that effort..!’ I don't think it is an exaggeration to say that every one of the once-Living Perfect Master's satsangs from the super-devotional, late seventies period included both injunctions repeated several times in various forms of words. You make the effort to surrender; the Guru supplies the experience. Take one step towards Guru Maharaj Ji, and Guru Maharaj Ji will take a hundred steps in your direction...

In many ways, this was (is?) the central, absurd paradoxical law of the cult: you do the work, the guru delivers the goods and gets the credit. If the goods fail to appear, however, it is your fault for not doing enough work (and the guru is blameless).

Maharaji’s kind of meditation is an illusion of surrendered control. Not in the sense that your experience is illusory, but in the sense of your being transported somewhere - Maharaji's World probably - by an external power. (Ok, the 'Knowledge' experience is said to be 'internal', but what I mean here is external to your control). For me, this is precisely analogous to the susceptible hypnotic subject who does for him- or herself everything necessary to achieve the sensation of automatism, then attributes the experience to the power of the hypnotist.
As a premie – and long before you may even become a premie - you have learned off by heart that (a) you must focus on the techniques, and (b) the experience is not elicited by those techniques, but is a gift of Grace.

But at a more damaging level, the illusion of surrendered control occurs in all areas of cult involvement, as well as everyday life. You can't afford the fare to travel to a festival, so you take your remaining furniture to an auction. By His Grace, someone buys it just in time for you to purchase a ticket. Wow, I mean, that is so amazing... I just took that step and… Thank you, Lord. (Pranam, grovel.)

This last example is a little different from the misinterpretation of inner experiences – but involves the same ‘I am surrendered’ cult-logic and perception.

In most cases, I think the illusion of surrendered control occurs in situations where we have only limited control of our nervous systems. We cannot, for example, make ourselves hiccup or belch but we can engineer circumstances to increase the probability of those events happening (by, say, opening a few bottles of the aforementioned special vintage…) Practising the Knowledge techniques does not guarantee that we will see light, hear music etc., but increases the likelihood of their occurring. Under such conditions we are most easily persuaded that our experiences are not of our own making.

Likewise your day trips to eternity, Mir.


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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 03:41:03 (GMT)
From: archive
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: The Illusion of surrendered control
Message:
good one Nigel
bburke@rocketmail.com
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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 07:51:50 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: mir
Subject: Delete maha from meditation
Message:
Hi Mir,
You've prompted a response on this surrender stuff.
My wife has been an ex premie for many years. However she has done a great deal of meditation since leaving.
She has in fact taught others (without charge) to meditate using her own adaptations of various techniques. She is able to give much more concise guidance and clear explanations of the processes of surrender in meditation than Maha or any of his so called instructors.

There is a surrender factor involved. This is in fact the biggest difference between meditation being a physiological relaxation or a discovery of the centre of consciousness.

However where we became confused and indeed limited as premies was in the concept that surrender was to the gooroo. The real surrender is to a higher aspect of our own consciousness whatever we label it.I assure you that this surrender (I prefer to call it trusting or letting go), is nothing to do with Rawat. That's the big lie. To really discover the true centre of oneself it's necessary to let go of the middleman and realise that it is only you in there. Surely it's much easier to trust yourself than some guy you don't really know? All ideas of M's greatness are fabrications of your own mind.How come the great majority of premies have never achieved any wonderful realisations in meditation? Have you ever considered that the guru is the last barrier to cross? It's attachment to external authority which needs to be surrendered,not one's own discrimination .

SO THERE YOU HAVE IT FOLKS; THE MASTER HAS NO IMPORTANCE IN THE EXPERIENCE OF MEDITATION:

Maybe one day you'll stop practicing and get down to the real thing.Doesn't the term 'practicing ' seem like M's saying that you'll never achieve anything? You'll always be only practicing. Practicing for what? I thought this was real life not a dress rehearsal.

Hal the Ronin. (ronin were masterless warriors )

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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 18:18:15 (GMT)
From: mir
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: No thanks
Message:
My wife has been an ex premie for many years. However she has done a great deal of meditation since leaving. She has in fact taught others (without charge) to meditate using her own adaptations of various techniques. She is able to give much more concise guidance and clear explanations of the processes of surrender in meditation than Maha or any of his so called instructors.

I don’t want to minimise anything your wife is doing Hal but I think a reality check is appropriate here. Maharaji has been teaching hundreds of thousands “without charge” for 34 years. During this time he has travelled almost full time with the goal of teaching as many people as possible. Not having had the benefit of your wife’s instruction I can’t compare it with I’ve received. I CAN say that from my perspective the instruction I receive from Maharaji has been excellent. The proof is in the experience. If you yourself are not happy with it, that’s fine. Maybe you can get your wife to instruct you on the fine art of surrender...in case she hasn’t already done so. By the way, how many of your wife’s students are still practising her techniques after 25 years? Does she travel to see them regularly to make sure they're doing ok?

There is a surrender factor involved. This is in fact the biggest difference between meditation being a physiological relaxation or a discovery of the centre of consciousness.

Surrender is not just a factor Hal...it is essential to having an experience. And if one were to you say it’s easy to achieve, it would expose their inexperience in the matter of surrender.

However where we became confused and indeed limited as premies was in the concept that surrender was to the gooroo. The real surrender is to a higher aspect of our own consciousness whatever we label it.

I agree. But how do get there from here?

Surely it's much easier to trust yourself than some guy you don't really know?

Well, Hal let me see...Is it much easier to trust yourself than some guy you don’t really know? I think I would have to say that for many that is not the case. It definitely should be the case but I think it is more rare than you would like to admit that someone really trusts themself, particularly in the area of self-knowledge. (As an aside, I believe if you were honest with yourself Hal you would see that you owe more to Maharaji than you admit for having achieved the degree of trust in yourself that you have. But that’s just my theory.)

So where you gonna go to learn surrender? Well, it’s got to be from someone you trust, no question about it. It’s got to be from someone who has the inclination to teach you until your dying day, because it can never stop. And it has to be someone whose standards are such that they won’t compromise the lessons of surrender to the wishes of the ego. Tall order!

All ideas of M's greatness are fabrications of your own mind.How come the great majority of premies have never achieved any wonderful realisations in meditation?

As I said, surrender is no small task. How many premies committed to learning just THAT? Yes, we moved into the ashram, pursued a position in the organisation, practised the techniques religiously, did all the right things...things that are not very difficult to achieve in the scheme of things. But how many really zeroed in on learning about the fine art of surrender. Because without it, all you have are a bunch of pretty unexciting techniques taught by some guy who just ends up pushing your buttons.

Have you ever considered that the guru is the last barrier to cross? It's attachment to external authority which needs to be surrendered,not one's own discrimination .

All depends what you want Hal. You are the master of that topic, ie; what you want. It’s good that you are taking back control in that area...control that you mistakenly handed over to someone else at some point. And when you have that control back, if you ever again choose to commit to tapping into the regions beyond the threshold, you may make the decision to pursue it in a more self-directed way.

All the best Hal.

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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 04:41:49 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: mir
Subject: surrender
Message:
mir,
No one can teach you to surrender, or let go. Could someone teach you to jump off a cliff? Can anyone teach you how to go to sleep, or die correctly? In the end there is only you and your fear to deal with. There will be no form , only your own infinite potential to merge with.
Nothing to do with worshipping a finite human being whatsoever.
But don't trust me on that, trust yourself.
All the best Hal.
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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 01:32:09 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: mir
Subject: No thanks
Message:
I don’t want to minimise anything your wife is doing Hal but I think a reality check is appropriate here. Maharaji has been teaching hundreds of thousands “without charge” for 34 years.

I think you're the one who needs a reality check, Mir. Did M teach you to meditate, or was it one of his trusted mahatmas, who he may have fired down the road because he didn't like the job he was doing?

These days, I hear M teaches hundreds, thousands of people to meditate at the same time. What does he do? He instructs them in some techniques, and sends them on their merry way. Then, after that, they get to watch videos where he doesn't even talk about meditation.

So what kind of meditation teacher are we talking about, here, Mir? A lousy one, I think.

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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 01:58:47 (GMT)
From: mir
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: No thanks
Message:
Jerry, we diagree. You do nothing but look for ways to explain everything M does in negative terms. In my opinion that demonstrates a high degree of narrow-mindedness and bias. I'm sure if he gave you the world you'd find some reason why it wasn't good enough just so you could carry on believing you are right. So before I blow my cool dealing with such narrow-mindedness why don't we just leave it at that, deal? We disagree. Enjoy your life.
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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 03:07:34 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: mir
Subject: No thanks
Message:
You do nothing but look for ways to explain everything M does in negative terms.

Wrong. I look for the truth about him. If that happens to be negative, that's just the way it is.

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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 20:04:28 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Hal and Mir
Subject: To Hal and Mir
Message:
Hal,

Your post 'delete maha...' above, is one of my personal all-time favorites of this site. Thank you. Even Mirror is forced to agree with you to a large extent.

Mir claims that Maharaji and Knowledge have brought him to the threshold of the region of true consciousness. And he seems to be waiting for some 'thrust' from his master to break through the final barrier. Hey Mir, if you need some kick in the butt from Rawat to become a man, then go ahead - be his student your whole lifetime, 'until your dying day,' as you say above. And do remember him on your deathbed, just as he wants you to. Go ahead.

But don't expect us to. We don't want to hold his hand, living or dying. We've washed our hands of him. For good. Understand?

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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 20:32:21 (GMT)
From: mir
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: To WAY
Message:
Ah...how quickly my words get misinterpreted. Ok, if you want to be the winner, call me something less than a man and by all means tell us all what a fine example of manhood you yourself are. Hey, feel good at my expense if it gets you through the night. But do try not to misinterpret me...please.

I never said I was helplessly waiting for anything. Maharaji has already supplied the means to cross this threshold...as if you know what I'm talking about. I know it sounds real macho and all when you stand up like you did and claim to be such a self-made man, but I have no qualms about seeking help from someone else when I need it. And I'll bet if you knew me you wouldn't have cause to call me challenged in my manhood in any way because of it. Wonder if I could say the same about you?

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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 21:07:16 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: mir
Subject: Back to Mir
Message:
Mir,

Well, as far as comparing our machoness, I think I will have to concede to your superiority, sight unseen. (Read my journey).

I do not think I am misinterpreting your words. You say clearly that in order to surrender, we need some external teacher who is willing to teach us until our dying day. If that doesn't smack of life-long servitude and depending on somebody else's strength, then maybe I am misinterpreting you.

Give me a little credit in knowing what you are talking about when you attempt some expression about the threshold, surrender, and the inner experience. Although many ex-premies here have abandoned those concepts, I am one of the many others who continue to pursue the silence within. And I very much appreciated your description of 'wiping the slate clean.' (That was you, wasn't it?)

Speaking of ministerpreting, surely you know by 'man' I wasn't refering in anyway to the physical. Maharaji himself once defined a man in this way: 'No humility, not a man.' I concur with that, but that brings us back to the point of this thread. Humility to who? It is a great error to humble ourselves before another man who remains a separateness to our own self and always will be. If we're talking about learning the guitar, then humble yourself before the guitar teacher until you've mastered the subject. But when we're talking about life, surrender to the one who gave you life. Was it Rawat? Come on, Mir, open your eyes.

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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 22:42:49 (GMT)
From: mirror
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: And back to Way
Message:
The guitar teacher didn't give you the guitar either. On the topic of mastering life, what makes you think it can be mastered in the same kind of timeframe that you master an instrument?If your guitar teacher was always learning and a step or two ahead of you wouldn't you want a lifelong affiliation?
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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 17:09:55 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: mirror
Subject: Simple question for Mir
Message:
Simple question for Mir:

Mir, would you say you were 'attached' to the Maha?

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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 02:12:17 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: mir
Subject: YUCK!!!! nt ROFL
Message:
NT
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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 22:43:51 (GMT)
From: Mu
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Mirror mirror in the wall who's the easiest of all
Message:
Mir is of course. He has never seen the devastation that maha has caused. He is too involved with gazing at his own distorted image!

HAHAHAH and HOHOHOHO!

Peace - Mu

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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 20:11:19 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Absolutely,superb post. Many thanks. (nt)
Message:
q
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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 18:21:49 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Rawat's really blissed out sometimes!
Message:
The Fun of Double-Darshan !

'The experience stamps it, seals it, and you begin anew!'

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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 03:08:16 (GMT)
From: The REAL A Premie
Email: worm@lotusfeet.com
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Rawat's really blissed out sometimes!
Message:
Oh my Guru Mariachi, I would split myself in two and have your darshan twice over! Your glory shines from your watch and my devotion is like unto your moustache - not much but it is still growing.
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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 02:29:11 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Mirror
Subject: MIR: COME AND SEE THE DARSHAN PICTURE!!
Message:
WONDERFUL, ISN'T!
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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 00:55:24 (GMT)
From: Anika and Friedle had
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: DOUBLE DUTCH DARSHAN!!! NT
Message:
ha ha ha
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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 23:15:21 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Pictures really can be worth 1000 words! Thks (nt)
Message:
a million for this and all!
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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 22:49:20 (GMT)
From: mantis
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Makes me want to puke! I did that shit!
Message:
Hey new aspirants wanna kiss some feet?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 19:54:58 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: I got a beauty of a sunburn waiting in that line
Message:
JM: The one thing I can be thankful for is the rain that cooled me off and the fact that he 'missed' me with his holy-liver-and-onions breath....... at least I think he missed...... :-)

Ahhhh.... the magical rainbow..... the memories flood in.....

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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 18:26:40 (GMT)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Double-darshan
Message:
I remember the double-darshan... totally crazy experience.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 22:13:59 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Happy
Subject: Phillip K. Dick
Message:
Yeah, that was my first darshan. Holy breath. It is so fucking strange to think back on those times. So long ago.

'Did I really do that? Did I really believe...' says the voice in my mind...

I have the memory, and unless it's one of those implanted memories (like in Phillip K. Dick's story 'We Can Remember It For You Wholesale,' later made into an Arnold Schwarzenegger movie...Total Recall, I think) then I guess it really was me going into debt to buy airplane tickets to go and kiss some guy's feet. Jeez.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 19:35:50 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Happy
Subject: Wonder what that experience did to M's ego? (nt)
Message:
Wonder what that experience did to M's ego? (nt)
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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 01:49:54 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Wonder what that experience did to M's ego? (nt)
Message:
Hey, you see the smile on his face, don't you?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 17:55:00 (GMT)
From: janus
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: d l m
Message:
if there are any danish exs on this site drop me a line
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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 18:44:55 (GMT)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: janus
Subject: d l m
Message:
I'm not a Dane, but I spent much time in Copenhagen during the 70's. I remember your name, but not what you look like.
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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 12:41:02 (GMT)
From: janus
Email: None
To: Happy
Subject: d l m
Message:
janus is not my real name,and i dont feel like writing it on these pages but i wouldt like to talk with you about copenhagen are you the happy who told his story on the journeys pages
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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 18:02:50 (GMT)
From: Happy
Email: happyheretic@hotmail.com
To: janus
Subject: d l m
Message:
Janus,
yes, I am the Happy who has a journey at the journey-section.

I understand that you are reluctant to write here as yet. You can email me at happyheretic@hotmail.com, if you wish.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 16:27:05 (GMT)
From: Djuro
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Knowledge review
Message:
Your understanding and experience of Knowledge is exactly oposit of what it is al about. You could ask for Knoledge review.
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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 01:12:27 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Djuro and Mirror
Subject: Knowledge review? DARSHAN BABY! !
Message:
Darshan, that is the real thing... Devotion all the way!

I remeber those days and frankly, I don't believe I did that! Yuck!

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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 19:40:24 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Djuro
Subject: Knowledge review
Message:
Last Knowledge review I had was at the Latvian about a month ago.

AND WHERE'S THE PHOTOS, ANTH? MARIANNE?

(and more to the point, how much for the negs?)

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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 18:03:30 (GMT)
From: DOD
Email: None
To: Djuro
Subject: Knowledge Reviews Are Pathetic
Message:
I went to approximately 25 of them. Each one was more boring than the last. Here I am--an ex-premie.

Let's face it. When Maharaji stopped playing God and watered down his message, there wasn't much to go back for. I mean, meditation is not exactly the most exciting thing--it's the idea of being in LOVE WITH THE LORD, n'est pas?

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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 19:29:53 (GMT)
From: JB
Email: None
To: DOD
Subject: 'Meditation is not
Message:
the most exiting thing.'
I guess you know from my posts that I disagree with that one.
Who's ever tech you use. Whom ever you follow.
It's really one of the most beautiful 'exciting' things happening. IMO and from my experience. It's the thoughts or 'mind' stuff that isn't so exciting.
Just my two cents again.
JB
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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 20:48:41 (GMT)
From: DOD
Email: None
To: JB
Subject: 'Meditation is not for me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Message:
For me it was just the grind of HAVING to meditate to please fatboy. I would do it for a few months straight and then quit for a long stretch.

Of course, days when I didn't meditate were completely ruined. I would dilly-dally too long and then have to rush to work. It was like some horrid cancer on my back. THERE WAS ALWAYS THE GUILT AND SELF-LOATHING FOR NOT FOLLOWING THE FATBOY.

Once I arrived here, I read many derrogatory remarks about the ill effects of meditation taking one into alpha mode and causing greater susecpibility to suggestion Maybe I'll try it sometime, but I doubt it. I think I'm through with god, meditation, spirituality, and fortune-telling. I'm glad you like the gig. Happy breathing to you, JB.

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 16:26:44 (GMT)
From: DJURO
Email: None
To: DOD
Subject: 'Meditation is not for me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Message:
Please, do not meditate, practice Knowledge.
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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 06:43:31 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: DOD
Subject: 'Meditation is not for me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Message:
DOD,

Then stop breathing goof! Then you'll be DOA, and we won't have to put up with any more of your chicken ka ka.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 17:41:50 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Djuro
Subject: SO.... let us in on it, Djuro
Message:
Djuro the Magnificent, Liberated, Enlightened One: What, EXACTLY, is 'it' all about? How is it that the All-Knowing M didn't 'fix' our misperception when he had the chance? We were, as you well know, a captive audience. He had more than enough opportunities to do it. I mean, if he 'knows our hearts' so well, why didn't he send me a message saying that I should come to meet him and he would straighten me out? Assuming, of course, that he really gives a damn about me.....

I await your benificent response with baited breath (I'm such a fish and I ate some worms this morning).....

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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 16:44:12 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Djuro
Subject: Thanks for the laugh
Message:
Djuro,

This was really funny. Thanks.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 17:43:45 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Thanks for the laugh
Message:
Jim,

You're much too reserved. Djuro's suggestion has got to be the FUNNIEST thing ever said by a premie, yet. But, I'll tell you, that might be fun. Maybe all exes should get together with M for a review to see where we went wrong. Can you imagine?

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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 16:47:55 (GMT)
From: Djuro
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Thanks for the laugh
Message:
I am very serious.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 17:02:13 (GMT)
From: Angry
Email: None
To: Djuro
Subject: Thanks for the laugh/Appreciated
Message:
Djuro,

Your cynical sense of humor is much appreciated. I'm glad you know how to poke fun at Fatso Ji!!

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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 17:01:48 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Djuro
Subject: Then you're very pathetic
Message:
What's a Knowledge Review going to do that a simple discussion between friends can't accomplish? I already know how to meditate. I learnt the techniques when I was 19 and practised them for hours a day for the next eight years. I had several Knowledge Reviews and they were all stupid. Like I need an Alphabet Review. Ridiculous.

But how about a nice little talk with Maharaji? Wouldn't that be something? What would you ask him, Djuro? Assuming, of course, that you were actually free to talk with him about anything at all and weren't afraid that he'd bite your head off if you said the wrong thing?

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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 20:37:51 (GMT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: U think you are so smart
Message:
Waht letter comes after Z? after E - lets see if you really know the subject!
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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 17:24:43 (GMT)
From: Uno
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Maharaji's own special meditation techniques
Message:
It was reported here that when Maharaji gave a knowledge review he crept out of the room/hall during each technique practise to go and have a cigarette or a drink round the back. Then he crept back after 15 minutes and showed the next technique.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 19:42:55 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Uno
Subject: Maharaji's own special meditation techniques
Message:
He's got his priorities right then ....
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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 17:13:49 (GMT)
From: Djuro
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Then you're very pathetic
Message:
How close to Knowledge you are?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 18:52:00 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Djuro
Subject: Does M like meditating?
Message:
It's true that when m gives knowledge reviews he shows each technique and disappears for 15 minutes each time. Whether he has a drink and a smoke or not isn't really important. what's important if pracising k is so great why doesn't he stay around and pracise with the premies. Why aren't there knowledge centres where people can come and pracise? I used to like pracising in a group but gave up when my teacher didn't appear to like it very much. By the way most of the instructors these days smoke, they seem to like doing this more than practising too.

Cynthia

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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 13:37:05 (GMT)
From: a little curious
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Does M like meditating?
Message:
What are they smoking? Do you know?
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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 03:06:08 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Does M like meditating? He doesn't even KNOW
Message:
I've attended dozens of k reviews with Rawat, and never saw him meditate for more than a few seconds, demonstrating the techniques.

He's been using the video to show a close plan of his face hilst demonstrating the 1st and 2nd techniques (light and sound), that's all. Then he disappears in his backstage appartment. When there is a k review with the premies, he first demonstrates the techniques, and then Charnanand comes to announce the change every 15 minutes. He doesn't even show up at the end. That's the usual format. And he never adresses the specific questions of premies having trouble meditating, which is the majority IMO. Except saying the usual stuff; trust, let go, go inside.

He has NO knowledge on how to help people meditating, when most meditation teachers do and spend a lot of time doing this.

And the result is that lots of sincere premies left disappointed. But I also know lots of head honchos who don't meditate on anything except their thaughts! They've told me. But they trust, and go on ..... Shall I give some names, hahahaha. Poor guys, they're high on the abuse system's scale!!!

They're abused, and help others being abused. This is how EV's working......and this is why this is a cult withought the shadow of a doubt. And that's why I left. It took me some times to accept these facts.....and understand what they imply.

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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 06:28:29 (GMT)
From: cynthia
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Does M like meditating? He doesn't even KNOW
Message:
I'd love to know the head haunchos that don't meditate. Why not
Jean Michel.

Dare you,

Cynthia

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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 19:25:07 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: cynthia
Subject: Does M like meditating? He doesn't even KNOW
Message:
Hi Cynthia,

I was an 'ordinary ashram premie' and I was told when I moved into the ashram that I didn't really have to meditate as I was doing service just by being there.
When I did service at his residence, I was actually told off for singing arti in the morning and insisting on doing my meditation.

Part of my service was guarding his and rajaji's cars that were garaged on a farm a few miles from Reigate. I had to do 12 hour shifts(btw there was no toilet there) and sometimes I was even privilaged enough to be brought a meal. The owner of the farm became suspicious of the honchos because they used to gossip about each other to him(the owner). I was told to say that I worked for a security company and didn't know whose cars they were. Anyway to cut a long story short the owner told me that the cars were owned by 2 Indian brothers.

I reported to the chief honcho what the owner had told me and said that they ought to get their act together as the owner was gettinng suspicious.
The next day I was told my service was finished and I was sent to an ashram. I fully accepted this as we always did....although it 'didn't feel right'.

I found out 2 years later that the owner had taken a writ out against the Rowatt brothers and the honchos had told m that it was because of MY big mouth that all the trouble occurred.

Hmm.....maybe that's why m never answered the letters I sent him over a period of 10 years begging for some help in life ...or what is more likely he couldn't be bothered anyway.

Anyway, for some reason, your post just reminded me of that situation.

Regards Jethro

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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 16:07:23 (GMT)
From: Major League Management
Email: None
To: M
Subject: You're FIRED!
Message:
M: I've called you into my office today to give you some bad news:

The reasons for this meeting are almost as infinite as that which you claim to be. But I will name just a few.

- You are batting zero in the 'liberation' department.

- You are batting zero in the 'god-conscious' department.

- You are batting zero in the 'feeding all the people' department.

- You are batting zero in the 'establishing peace on earth' department.

- You are batting zero in the 'conscience' department (you protect child-molesters and attempted murderers).

- You are batting zero in the 'ethics' department (see above, plus your self-avowed disdain for same). There is a problem here, though. You apparently bring up the 'ethics' thing in your seminars...... hmmmmmm..... maybe there's hope for you yet..... NO, NO, I don't think so.

Now, understand that I would understand the failure if it were just a year or two down the road from the beginning (bigning, in your pronunciation) of your career. BUT, you have been batting zero for over 25 years. Despite the claims of your 'agents,' that you are getting better and 'evolving,' I see no evolution nor ANY successes. Let's look at your 'liberation stats,' for an example:

HR's (Home Runs): 0 - NO one has been batted into liberation upon first contact with your K-ball.

RBI's (Runs Batted In): 0 - Not a single person has made it around all of the bases (even stage by stage) by you coming into contact with their psyche. In fact, it appears that you bat them in the wrong direction, altogether. Instead of selflessness, your runners appear to become more selfish with each passing day. NOT IMPRESSIVE!

You know, it's really a shame. You showed so much promise when you began. That sweet cherub-like face, your cute mispronunciations, your stellar-level promises to all of us (your teammates and fellow humans). BUT JUST LOOK AT YOU, NOW! The only real growth that has occurred is your girth (Babe Ruth had a similar appearance, but at least he could hit the ball!). Your sweet appearance has turned into flab. Your 'promises' have changed significantly. Even your 'title' has changed more often than most of us change our socks. But your ego is the one thing that must be dealt with most harshly: You wore the 'crown of glory' before you even got an RBI! Sorry fella, but to get the trophy you MUST win the games, first! You haven't even hit the ball, yet.... After more than 25 years of trying. You say I should be 'grateful!' Grateful for what? Making me wait for half a lifetime for something that you promised would happen in much less time?

So, I could go on and on, but I'll end it with these famous words: M...... YOU'RE FIRED! Now clean out your mansion and forget about collecting your last check from me.

Jeez, and to think I ever thought this guy was ready for the Majors.....

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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 05:33:43 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Please, Lord, don't surrender to the Japanese
Message:
TOKYO (Reuters) - Five years after a fatal gas attack on Tokyo's subway system, the guru of a doomsday cult accused of the killing is still on trial, in what has come to symbolize the country's snail-paced judicial system.

Shoko Asahara, leader of the Aum Shinri Kyo (Supreme Truth Sect), stood in court for the 148th time on Thursday, on charges of masterminding the March 20, 1995 gas attack which killed 12 people and made thousands ill.

The trial, which is now in its fifth year, promises to go on much longer, with legal experts saying it may be well over 15 years before the final verdict.

If convicted, Asahara is likely to be sentenced to death by hanging, the maximum penalty for murder.

In addition to the subway gassing, Asahara, whose real name is Chizuo Matsumoto, also faces 16 other charges, including the planning of a separate nerve gas attack in 1994 in which seven people were killed and 144 injured.

JAPAN COURT SYSTEM ``TIME ROBBERS''

For decades, lawyers have criticised the Japanese court system as ``time robbers,'' because suspects can be held for years in jail while cases wind their way through the justice system.

In Japan, prosecutors indict suspects and a three-member panel of judges hands down both the verdict and the sentence. There is no jury.

A chronic shortage of judges slows down the process.

While the number of trials, both civil and criminal, has expanded threefold in the 40 years since 1955, the number of judges has increased by only 30 percent. The average judge handles about 300 criminal and civil cases at one time.

And with both defendants and prosecutors having the right to appeal, it can take years, even decades, for a final verdict.

One example is the trial of former prime minister Kakuei Tanaka, who was arrested in 1976 for taking bribes. The trial and subsequent appeals took 19 years from start to finish and Tanaka died two years before the final guilty verdict was handed down.

In Asahara's case, prosecutors made an extraordinary decision to drastically reduce the number of people listed in the indictments as ``injured'' in a bid to shorten court proceedings.

Prosecutors said the step could cut the length of the trial by up to eight years. Still, given original estimates it could last 30 years, that would shorten it to only 22 years.

The first ruling by the Tokyo District Court is expected within a year at the earliest. But a guilty verdict is almost certain to be appealed to the Tokyo High Court, and probably to the Supreme Court.

FEARS OVER AUM REMAIN

While public interest over the trial was strong in the early stages, it has since dwindled. But concerns over the cult remain strong.

Late last month, Japanese police said that Aum members were involved in developing computer systems for a number of government ministries, including the Defense Agency.

Computer experts said this could have given Aum a back door into the networks, meaning the group could have been just a step away from getting its hands on vital information, including defense communications.

A poll published last week by the mass circulation Yomiuri Shimbun showed that 81 percent of those surveyed still fear Aum.

Prompted by concern the cult was making a comeback, Japan's parliament passed new laws in December allowing the government to put Aum under surveillance since early February.

Aum had tried to fend off the heightened scrutiny by saying it had implemented reforms, insisting it was now a benign religious group.

In the past, Aum preached that the world was coming to an end and that the cult must arm itself to prepare for various calamities.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 14:25:55 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The Lord only surrenders to his devotees' love
Message:
Read this:

How He thanked the premies who've offered him his Malibu residence.


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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 20:33:17 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: He must be pissed ....
Message:
So, premies, equate that 'very good sign' - 'experiencing peace and bliss within' - with 'what makes me (the Maha) really happy' i.e. a (then) new mansion in Malibu.

… and you thought you had only sold your soul ….

… and what of your integrity???

- or is your misguided interpretation of the meaning of integrity merely another word for PRIDE in the length of time you have DEaDicated yourselves to the Mahamaggot?

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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 21:21:48 (GMT)
From: DOD
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: MAHARAJI'S LATEST HOUSE THANK YOU NOTE
Message:
Dear Premies,

By the united efforts of all of you via mega cash donations and your free labour (we didn't even feed you a crumb or let you pull up on the lawn), Durga Ji and myself have bulldozed the last large, beautiful mansion you bought us and replaced it with a real beauty on springs. Some people ask why I live in such an expensive house?--because I can afford to.

This new palace will, indeed facilitate my work. I am currently renting out the recording studio when it is not being used for Visions projects. You will be happy to know that Durga Ji is no longer tripping over Monica Lewis with the additional space. This is a good thing--my Marolyn deserves better. On days when I am drunk or hungover, and my performance is poor, Monica amuses herself by the hour with the 64 power windows in my bedroom.

The most important aspect of the house, though, was your love for me, a total stranger, which caused you to respond in the way you did. It is a very good sign, for it shows that you are still brainwashed into believing I am the Lord thy God.

Continue to squelch your doubts, constantly lie to yourself, and pretend to be experiencing the peace and bliss contained within my Knowledge (whatever that is). Flash me those goon-like smiles. This is what really makes me happy.

So, my blessings and thanks to you for your continued sacrifice and grovelling (geez, it must be going on thiry years for a lot of you).

Prem Pal Singh Rawat

(alias Sant Ji Maharaj)
(alias Balyogeshwar)
(alias Guru Maharaj Ji)
(alias Goomeraj Ji)
(alias Maharaj Ji)
(alias Maharaji)
(alias Lord Krishna)
(alias Lord You-Name-Him-We'll-Use-Him)

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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 22:40:35 (GMT)
From: Alice the Goon
Email: None
To: DOD
Subject: MAHARAJI'S LATEST HOUSE THANK YOU NOTE
Message:
Oh I am so HAPPY!!!!
Oh my lord thank you for your bliss at your holy lotus feet!
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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 00:28:23 (GMT)
From: DOD
Email: None
To: Alice the Goon
Subject: MAHARAJI'S LATEST HOUSE--WHAT'S IT WORTH?
Message:
Do you have a rough idea of what that new mansion is worth? Pepi dug there for about six months, I know. He abandoned his wife and sickly daughter for good to do it. The Lord works in mysterious ways. It had to have a deep basement for those springs. Imagine having architects and engineers (armed with CAD) and piles of labourers coming to work for free.

All they were given is bottled water. They had to travel there, eat and lodge at their own expense so that Fatboy could have a new house. Of course, donations paid for the materials.
How disgusting!

Needless to say, Pepi didn't have any leftover cash to send back home to the wife and kid.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 16:20:27 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: HIS knowledge??????
Message:
JM: This simple letter is just incredible. He says, '...The most important aspect of the house, though, was your love for me which caused you to respond in the way you did. It is a very good sign, for it shows that you are experiencing the peace and bliss contained within MY KNOWLEDGE.....' (emphasis mine)

'MY KNOWLEDGE'???? 'MY KNOWLEDGE'???? I thought he said it is was always MINE (as in 'me' mine). I thought he said it was always present in ME. This quote, alone, marks him as a LIAR! There is no mistaking this one! If it even exists, there is one thing for sure..... IT ISN'T HIS KNOWLEDGE! Unless, of course, he is god (which he claims that he isn't and never said he was, either way he is still a LIAR).

What an incredible EGO..... HIS KNOWLEDGE, my ass!

BTW, I wasn't 'devoted to his house,' I was devoted to him..... he can't even get THAT right!

Thanks, once again, JM for posting the REAL stuff! You really ARE incredible! :-)

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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 15:41:19 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: And I actually FELL for that????????????
Message:
I can't believe it. Knowledge was 'working' because I gave him money? I actually fell for that? Holy cow.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 20:48:16 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Like I said: biggest liar the world has ever..(nt)
Message:
Like I said: biggest liar the world has ever..(nt)
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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 05:21:49 (GMT)
From: pierre latruce
Email: None
To: sum 1
Subject: how come whenever I post
Message:
sum ding here. It gets deleted.
i share a house with a person who has K
she / he is a wired nervous bitch from the adolf mold.
just cause she / he is phucked up doesn't mean
the 'teacher' is no bueno.
she's/ he's just a 'all mind all the time' kind o' person.
pour moi.. ex premie website.. is an ex lover website..
Y do u delete.. the true 'meaning' of your ex self
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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 15:23:04 (GMT)
From: DOD
Email: None
To: pierre latruce
Subject: how come whenever I post
Message:
Dear Pierre:

You are a prime example of the effect of Maharaji and his Knowledge.

WHAT IS LONG AND HARD ON A PREMIE?

Grade 5

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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 23:49:46 (GMT)
From: pierre latruce
Email: None
To: DOD
Subject: how come whenever I post
Message:
gee...thanks dod..u made my day.. well u didn't actually
make it.
the 'energy' did.
but thx anyway dod.
nodelete.com
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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 10:41:45 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: pierre latruce
Subject: Is it just me?
Message:
I don't post to premies much, finding the value of the encounter pretty limited all round, but, how come in this post, you've made a point of using misspellings, etc. in a less than inspiring way. You're not exactly e. e. cummings, and I don't notice any realaudio links transforming your otherwise incoherent ramblings into a rap session.

Is it just me? While I can't understand why you post here (nor why exes get so into arguing with premies who do), I can understand why the FA's would want to delete your purposefully illiterate statements.

If you have something to say, why hide behind bad grammar, misspelling and poor vocabulary? Could it be because you prefer vagueness?

If you posted a lucid statement and saved it correctly, I doubt that it would be in great danger of being deleted, although I'm sure as a premie you would be argued with vehemently. If your main concern is that your posts are left online, you might as well make them readable.

Just a thought.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 08:38:04 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: pierre latruce
Subject: how come whenever I post
Message:
I know posts do get deleted, for instance some garbage written by Djuro recently got deleted. But I've never seen anything by Pierre Latruce here before. Maybe I missed it before it got deleted, but I'd be surprised.

Pierre, when did you post stuff that got deleted? If it was relevant to our discussions perhaps you could repost?

John.

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 16:19:33 (GMT)
From: DJURO
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: how come whenever I post
Message:
Who decides what is THE GARBAGE?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 08:59:26 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: maybe I can help
Message:
Maybe you haven't read what the write message screen says! Once your post has been typed in the appropriate window, you go to preview, and the validate your post, OR check the appropriate box to skip the preview step.

If you don't follow the procedure, then your post doesn't get to the forum.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 20:53:15 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: maybe I can help
Message:
Jean-Michel has the answer to this one:

Just 'submitting message' gives you a preview of what you want to post.

To post it, you have to then 'POST message'

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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 05:28:05 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: pierre latruce
Subject: Bullshit, Pierre
Message:
You're full of shit, saying that your posts get deleted. Like when? And under what name? No one's posts get deleted here except under rare circumstances. I say you're wrong no that one, mon ami.

And don't make so much of the word 'ex-premie'. The fact is, as premies many of us were actually prevented from loving anything but our cardboard notion of Maharaji, Lord of the Universe. Certainly wasn't room for any people in there.

By the way, did you post below as 'tilly' and some other name in that thread I'm too lazy to find?

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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 20:45:06 (GMT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Bullshit, Pierre
Message:
Maybe its a meatware problem, maybe he previews but never accpets the post portion, it is rather difficult to understand, especially for some one who has their thoughts elsehwere.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 09:30:04 (GMT)
From: Annie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Bullshit, Pierre
Message:
'The fact is, as premies many of us were actually prevented from loving anything but our cardboard notion of Maharaji, Lord of the Universe.'

This is the single most illuminating and real-life thing I've yet to hear you say.

The NOTION is cardboard...not Maharaji. He's all too real and has been since he was little. And dealing with him isn't always easy. But he's genuine and really does carry a lot of mojo, which, I'm sure, makes it even more galling. Were you cardboard with him?

As long as you hold him at a distance, it's easy to fire your little missiles. If he were right in front of you, it might be quite a different story. You might realize you weren't looking into the face of the target you've invented. You'd be looking into a face that you'd forgotten. Perhaps.

Anyway, thanks for articulating that so clearly.

Annie

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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 02:31:39 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Annie
Subject: That's completely backwards, Annie
Message:
As long as you hold him at a distance, it's easy to fire your little missiles. If he were right in front of you, it might be quite a different story. You might realize you weren't looking into the face of the target you've invented. You'd be looking into a face that you'd forgotten. Perhaps.

Annie,

Over the past three years I have done all I can think of to establish some contact with my former cult leader. I established a rapport with Linda Gross, former titular head of EV, in the hopes that she could arrange something. She thought she might too but alas, she was mistaken. I tracked down David Smith and asked for his help. The poor guy could barely maintain a conversation. He was useless. I spoke with David Coyne, some PAM who promised me results finally. Alas again, nothing. I emailed Maharaji several times care of his web site. I sent him registered mail. Again, nothing in either case. I posted challenges to him here, sometimes funny, sometimes angry, sometimes pretty matter-of-fact. The results? Take a guess. Finally, I got a hold of his phone number and left several messages. I talked with one of his assistants there too. Each time I left my name and number. Once I even invited the guy to call collect. After all, maybe it was the money. What did I know? But again, nothing.

And earlier? Back in the late eighties I had a drink with his brother, Raja Ji, trying to get some straight answers. After a while, Raja Ji admitted that he himself couldn't get Maharaji to answer anything even slightly challenging and thus gave me the strong impression that it would be hopeless for me, a lone, mere foot-soldier (deserted, no less) to expect anything more. Still I tried.

And ever since this internet ex thing has started I've posted my name, address and phone number just waiting for a little contact.

So tell me, Annie, what was it you were saying again?

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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 05:47:32 (GMT)
From: pierre latruce
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: re: completely backwards
Message:
it was me, moi, monsieur pierre who started this post.
It was 'bout being deleted.
sir dave says 'god' is invisible.
can't be seen or heard.
I beg 2 diffa.
Approaching a wild bird... etc.
gee... i can't even approach a horse.
let alone the maker.
whoeva you're pissed at is whomever he is.
what ever the god is...well let's cut 2 the chase.
it's a lite. holy by human standards.
keep calling jimbo.. never know..he just mite c u.
personally, i could use some 'D'. So could alot o' us.
what do u say we call a laTRUCE.com
oh oh.. i can hear it now... the next post... can u hear it...?
phuck you pierre.. you are full of crap.. approachthis.com
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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 19:18:24 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: pierre latruce
Subject: Are you psychic, Pierre?
Message:
oh oh.. i can hear it now... the next post... can u hear it...? phuck you pierre.. you are full of crap..

Fuck you, Pierre. You are full of crap. Gee, how did you know?

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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 02:06:55 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Annie
Subject: Bullshit
Message:
Thanks for reminging me of what 'his grace' does to people, which shows in your words. I look in the dictionary for synonyms of the word fanatic and this is what I found: Zealot, enthusiast, dogmatist: See EXCITABILITY, FEELING, HETERODOXY and YES, INSANITY.

Some synonyms of insanity are: lunacy; deragement, craziness,-I love this one- feeblemindness; psychosis, psychopaty, schizophrenia, split personality, paranoia, dementia and ...many more. Look it up. Interesting...MAHARAJI!

Yes, I would like to face Rat Rawat one on one to have a talk, bad that may never happen.

Dellussions brought the belief, now is up to you to brake it.

Did he tell you the exes missiles are little? I doubt it...he's very concern I bet.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 15:40:21 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Annie
Subject: Annie,
Message:
In a previous thread you said you have personal access to Rawat. If you do can you please ask him about Jagdeo? You also said he enjoys premies who challenge him. So I do not see why this ought to be a problem. Can you ask him what he did do about Jagdeo when I reported it in 1977? Can you ask him what has been done about him now?

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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 15:14:02 (GMT)
From: DOD
Email: None
To: Annie
Subject: Bullshit, Annie
Message:
The fact is, as premies many of us were actually prevented from loving anything but our cardboard notion of Maharaji, Lord of the Universe. As long as you hold him at a distance, it's easy to fire your little missiles.

How can a premie do anything but hold him at a distance; he is a stranger in whom them have entrusted their lives. He dictates the whole enchilada: how to live, what to think, likes/dislikes, etc. He has his finger on every pulse and facet of a premie's life. The average premie never gets to meet the REAL PREM RAWAT. The lucky ones who get too close to his fire, realize he's a fraud and leave.

He's all too real and has been since he was little. And dealing with him isn't always easy. But he's genuine and really does carry a lot of mojo, which, I'm sure, makes it even more galling. If he were in front of you,...you might realize you weren't looking into the face of a target ... but someone you've forgotten.

He's genuine alright--a genuine jerk. He carries a lot of mojo because you and your fellow androids gave it to him. I'm sure dealing with him isn't easy--especially when he wants an additional $3 million and a new plane by next Friday (start the phone feeds, oops, I mean satellite broadcast). I only wish I could forget his ugly little face. Only Maharaji need feel gall--for having deluded you and your fellow minions for so long.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 14:55:50 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Annie
Subject: Wrong, Annie
Message:
Annie: '...If he were right in front of you, it might be quite a different story....'

NOPE! Unlike the frightened little robots that call themselves premies nowadays, I WOULD actually confront him face-to-face. I would ask him all of the questions that have been brought up here..... ALL of them! I would prefer to do it under the 'color of authority' (e.g. as a cop doing a criminal investigation), but face-to-face would do just fine.

Unlike you, I KNOW that he isn't anything special. I KNOW that he is a fraud. I KNOW that he protects child-molesters and attempted murderers. I have no respect or fear, whatsoever, for this puny little bit of pond-scum that you refer to as your lord and master. He is NOTHING, always has been NOTHING and always will be NOTHING! Get it? He's a fraud that has not the slightest bit of real humanity left in his putrid little form.... and he wants to make YOU just the same as him (uncaring, selfish, you get the picture).

As for 'holding him at a distance,' it is HE, not I that held him at a distance. His life behind the LOCKED gates of his multi-million dollar mansion speak to this quite well. When was the last time he had you over for tea?

I know your post was to Jim, but I just can't stand all of the lies that premies tell here. You aren't enlightened, you aren't liberated, you aren't god-conscious, you aren't even on 24 hour LSD (his words, not mine!)...... get over it!

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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 00:05:23 (GMT)
From: pierre latruce
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Annie the drunken dwarf
Message:
i was the original post here.
not annie
i have been deleted under another name
duh...
u guys assume 2 much
don't delete me fine
it wasn't so long ago that europeans sold
slaves... we humans have quite the history
we just sweep the slave trade under the rug
and bitch about hitler or some other insanity
god is everywhere.. in all.. and the heart in all knows
what? someone gonna pee on dat.
we're not slaves.. no one is forced to love the creator
all religions point 2 a creator
4the living , true religion is seeing the lite o'god and begging
one's phuckin' ass off 2 it.
i can hear it now.. the next post... something like
what a bunch of crap..
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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 02:55:34 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk
To: pierre latruce
Subject: Don't waste your time but do this
Message:
Don't waste your time loving an invisible creator. Why not love other people who are not invisible and are definitely there. Ah, but it's more of a challenge to love and be loyal to real people.

But what is also true is that they need your love far more than some unseen creator. And it will do far more good than worshipping something you can't see or hear.

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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 00:11:11 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: pierre latruce
Subject: Yes, you're right
Message:
An amazingly confused post. What else you got?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 11:38:24 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Annie
Subject: What's Special about Maharaji?
Message:
Annie,

Tell us what you think or know is special about Maharaji.

He teaches meditation? - so do others.

Some of his students enjoy meditating? - so do students of other teachers and those who have learnt meditation without a teacher.

He has charisma? - so do many other public figures, many with arguably far more charisma (actually I'm not sure charisma exists outside the minds of the perceiver, but that's just my personal opinion).

So Annie, what is special about Maharaji? Are you willing to tell us what you know?

John.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 11:01:53 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Annie
Subject: Seminars
Message:
Annie,

What do you think of these 'motivation' seminars that M is moderating? Do you think they serve any worthtwhile purpose? Have you been invited to one? If so, how much were you charged? I'm asking you, in particular, because the way you speak of M, I think it's safe to assume you spend some time with him, and are privy to these 'confidential' matters that only certain premies are aware of. You are aware of these seminars, aren't you?

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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 06:24:08 (GMT)
From: pierre latruce
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Bulls, Pierre
Message:
no really, i get deleted quite alot.
no offense jim, but from day 1 I noticed a lot of 'bonker'
people w/ K . Lots of 'adolfs' in the housemother positions.
fine w/ me. I wasn't into it for the 'masses'. I couldn't make
an act of celibacy deal so I didn't go ashram.
just a recognition that this could be the 'lite' so many
other 'swamis' were alleging. Just 'cause a lot of 'pwk'/people with
knowledge are flagrant ripoffs / complete and utter miserable
bitches/ for me.. the 'man' showed me what i needed to see
and that's all she wrote. I see it, I feel it, I love it. It's my God.
The lite is the lite in everything. Bitch 2 the lite and a humble we
will b.net
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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 00:39:17 (GMT)
From: DOD
Email: None
To: pierre latruce
Subject: Who says you need to be humble. Take your cue
Message:
from Maharaji. This is his prayer to Shri Hans every day:

Oh Lord, it's hard to be humble,
When you're perfect in every way.
I can't wait to look in the mirror.
I get better looking each day.
To know me is to love me.
I guess I'm one helluva guy ....

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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 06:28:38 (GMT)
From: Cat
Email: Weasel
To: pierre latruce
Subject: Liar, Liar Jimbo...it definetly happens...Censor
Message:
xxxxxzzz
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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 20:57:49 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Cat
Subject: I didn't say it didn't -- like when YOU got turfed
Message:
What are you doing here anyway? Who let you back in?

No, Cat, posts aren't deleted here except in unusal circumstances. Some people have been blocked, however, but that's different. You were blocked because you don't know how to talk like a regular human being. You uttered nothing but a festering, unintelligent stream of garbage. A different kind of garbage than the sickly shit you can read your fellow cult members post on ELK or the empty garbage your cult LEADER speaks every time he opens his mouth. But garbage nonetheless.

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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 03:00:22 (GMT)
From: purrrrrrrr
Email: None
To: Cat
Subject: Liar, Liar Jimbo...it definetly happens...Censor
Message:
sweet kitty cat
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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 12:17:30 (GMT)
From: pierre latruce
Email: None
To: Cat
Subject: how come wheneva I post
Message:
my message gets deleted.
that's what I orig. posted
if i say ex- lover site. I get deleted.
that's the name o' this site.
therefore, we could have a seminar on the ex lovers site.
so what, who cares.
now..... a lovers seminar... now that's worth chatin' about.
but this will get deleted and i'll never make the hall of ex
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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 12:22:31 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: pierre latruce
Subject: Fuck you, Pierre
Message:
You're full of shit, or you just don't know the difference between a 'Submit' and a 'Post' button. There's nothing about your posts that are so damning that this forum wouldn't want others to see. Get off your high horse.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 15:05:34 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: He probably thinks the reverse arrow
Message:
Jerry: is the 'post' button...... he he he :-) Does he actually think that we haven't heard this 'ex lover' crap before? Does he actually think that this 'pearl of wisdom' has SO MUCH effect? What an idiot!

I just love the way these guys come here and think they are being so 'cute' by trying to come up with something they think we haven't already heard. They are just like M, repeating and repeating and repeating and repeating, on and on in an endless drone. I haven't heard anything different coming from these guys since my first month on the forum.

I wouldn't accuse him of being on a 'high horse,' because he doesn't even have a horse to climb onto. He gave the horse to M for a (requested) birthday present (ooopppsss, I mean gratitude)! he he he :-)

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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 03:39:02 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Elan Vital - Revenues and Expenses
Message:
This is the only information that Elan Vital
shows on their web site regarding finances
(on their Statistics page):

Revenues:

66.67%  EV voluntary contributions

33.33%  Visions Sales and Support

Expenses:

59.67%  Knowledge Promotion, Events & Tours

33.33%  Visions Material Development, Production & Distribution

  7.00%  General & Administrative

My observations:

1. No dollars figures are given

2. No time frame is given

3. No detailed breakdown of expenses is given

4. Voluntary contributions are shown as 2/3 of revenues
   (almost exactly), this may just be a coincidence,
   but it seems odd.

5. Isn't Visions International just a part of Elan Vital?
   I'm not clear about this. What is the division about?

Where is the money going? Who is getting how much money?

BTW, also stated on the Statistics page:

Admission to events sponsored by Elan Vital is free of charge. Through the generosity of over 3,600 U.S. contributors, all activities of Elan Vital are supported by voluntary contributions and the sales of materials.

In addition, video events occur at more than 200 locations throughout the United States. These are also free of charge and are entirely supported by interested contributors.

Outright lies. There was a fee to attend the 'Unique Event'.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 15:19:56 (GMT)
From: DOD
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Elan Vital - Revenues and Expenses
Message:
How come the IRS hasn't investigated the bastard yet? If they did, he'd be fleeing to Dera Dung where he belongs. The folks over there know how to take him--with a grain of salt.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 04:56:22 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Elan Vital - Revenues and Expenses: HAHAHAHA nt
Message:
:n
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