Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 10:22:47 (GMT)
From: Mar 09, 2000 To: Mar 20, 2000 Page: 4 Of: 5


JHB -:- Champion Meditator and Other Rubbish -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 14:12:05 (GMT)
__ JB -:- Can't wait (nt) -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 12:31:51 (GMT)
__ Hal -:- Hi John, Thanks. Please find time to publish (nt) -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 14:20:44 (GMT)

cq -:- Wheen's World - I REALLY LOVE YOUR LOTUS FEET -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 11:00:25 (GMT)
__ star -:- John Cainer the LIAR nt -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 02:53:21 (GMT)
__ SB -:- I REALLY LOVE YOUR LOTUS FEET- NOT! -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 13:13:49 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- Love your lotus feet we do - NOT! -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 15:48:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ SB -:- WE'll never kiss your 'lotus feet. THANKS! (nt) -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 00:40:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ a-z -:- Love your lotus feet we do - NOT! -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 19:03:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- So he's NOT a master of meditation? -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 20:44:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ SB -:- I DO NOT Love your lotus feet (nt) -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 22:11:38 (GMT)

ham -:- DJ's live on the net (OT) -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 09:21:42 (GMT)

Jethro -:- SYDA YOGA -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 21:42:50 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- SYDA YOGA -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 01:42:40 (GMT)
__ Helen -:- SYDA YOGA -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 22:21:30 (GMT)
__ JB -:- SYDA YOGA -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 18:36:21 (GMT)
__ __ Runamok -:- SYDA YOGA -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 19:52:51 (GMT)
__ pissed -:- It is always the case -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 03:47:01 (GMT)
__ Jethro -:- The above post is to EX-MUG (nt) -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 21:44:06 (GMT)
__ __ Happy -:- Guru-pedophiles -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 14:46:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Guru-pedophiles -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 17:38:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- Guru-paedophiles -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 18:11:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- Guru-paedophiles/the celibacy issue -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 23:13:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Guru-paedophiles/the celibacy issue -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 00:21:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Guru-paedophiles/the celibacy issue -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 05:56:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- monastics/the celibacy issue -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 03:02:38 (GMT)

Jim -:- I want to squeeze her face -- hard -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 20:09:51 (GMT)
__ JB -:- I want to squeeze her face -- hard -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 13:12:10 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- Super-premies and human beings -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 19:49:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ JB -:- Super-premies and human beings -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 20:06:43 (GMT)
__ Mel Bourne -:- I want to squeeze her face -- hard -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 01:38:16 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Not really -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 03:33:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Really? -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 07:52:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- I want to squeeze YOUR face hard -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 21:17:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Oh fuck off, you guru-worshipping nitwit! -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 09:09:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Oh fuck off, you guru-worshipping nitwit! -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 03:23:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Mel, righteous anger, never felt it? (nt) -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 08:37:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Mel, righteous anger, never felt it? -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 03:16:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Mel, righteous anger, never felt it? -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 04:48:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Mel, righteous anger, never felt it? -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 09:17:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Mel, righteous anger, never felt it? -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 00:25:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Mel, righteous anger, never felt it? -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 11:56:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- They are expressions -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 14:41:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Mel, you're just making a fool of yourself (again) -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 17:03:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Not as big a fool as your are Jim -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 01:27:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Fuck you (not literally, of course) -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 02:09:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Fuck you (not literally, of course) -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 06:12:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Fuck you (not literally, of course) -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 07:00:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Jim's in denial, folks.... -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 09:25:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- NO Mel, once again you are totally wrong! -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 17:53:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- No, you idiot, I'm in what's called 'disagreement' -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 17:18:18 (GMT)
__ Dr. Crane -:- I want to slap her -- silly -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 20:41:06 (GMT)

Jim -:- This ain't exactly science -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 19:39:15 (GMT)

Sir Dave -:- A parallel universe -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 12:16:25 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- A parallel universe -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 01:15:42 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- A parallel universe -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 01:53:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- A parallel universe -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 04:46:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ Happy -:- Not Sheila -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 13:35:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- A parallel universe -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 04:29:21 (GMT)
__ Sorry,forgive me -:- A parallel universe -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 13:39:52 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- But you've got the wrong Mataji -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 19:00:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sorry -:- Whatever(nt) -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 20:01:57 (GMT)
__ Happy -:- Nirmala Devi's universe -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 18:20:36 (GMT)
__ __ Runamok -:- Post-Rajneesh -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 05:06:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ Helen -:- Post-Rajneesh -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 22:16:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Runamok -:- Post-Rajneesh -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 23:09:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ G -:- Laing, the guy who wrote Knots? nt -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 00:21:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- Right, not JD Lang -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 03:04:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- ...or KT Lang -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 05:36:16 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- The Hindu Universe -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 01:08:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ hamzen -:- Social Attitudes and Change -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 08:46:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Hal -:- Social Attitudes and Change -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 14:31:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Social Attitudes and Change -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 10:50:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jackie (ot) -:- Sounds great - can't wait !(nt) -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 02:12:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- To Hamzen -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 14:18:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Is that a touch of jealousy I feel coming on -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 17:04:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Sorry bruv no info on that (nt) -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 10:25:48 (GMT)

Brian -:- answer me. rest. answer me. -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 10:44:43 (GMT)

Sir Dave -:- For all your hamster needs -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 10:27:48 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- and for all premies' needs: NEW DARSHAN PAGE -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 10:31:11 (GMT)
__ __ archive -:- that is Toronto Nov74 not LA.(nt) -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 03:36:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- there are 2 LA pictures on that page, which one??? -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 10:35:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- that is Toronto Nov74: are you sure? -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 13:12:58 (GMT)
__ __ Mike -:- Hey, JM -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 15:05:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ Happy -:- Hanuman incarnate -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 18:23:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Mike -:- I thought that I answered....... sorry! -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 21:00:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ G -:- Rajeswar -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 05:53:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- It wouldn't surprise me -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 16:15:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JB -:- Hanuman incarnate,Bahari -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 13:55:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Happy -:- Hanuman incarnate,Bahari -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 18:02:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- OK, but look at these: even MORE darshan pictures! -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 17:16:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ a-z -:- OK, but look at these: even MORE darshan pictures! -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 20:19:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ mantis -:- what filth! nt -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 02:08:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Mike -:- Good shootin', Tex! :-) -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 22:38:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- It's not too late, Mike -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 00:45:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JB -:- Resting on the feet -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 14:04:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Celebrities eyes -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 21:35:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- I'm gonna hurry there, right NOW! -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 03:01:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- m: 'It worked because you thought it would work.' -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 05:02:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- m: 'It worked because you thought it would work.' -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 08:12:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- BBJ's slide show of Beatles at Millennium 73 -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 18:01:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- BBJ's slide show of Beatles at Millennium 73 -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 20:21:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Now you know how a lot of older exes felt (nt) -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 18:07:05 (GMT)

pierre latruce -:- Pierre's post has been deleted.... -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 07:04:25 (GMT)
__ JB -:- Pierre's post has been deleted.... -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 17:38:25 (GMT)
__ Nobody -:- (nt) -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 16:05:50 (GMT)
__ __ JHB -:- To CAT - Ben has a point -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 13:56:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ Nobody -:- test (nt) -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 00:41:17 (GMT)
__ __ Ben Lurking -:- FASCIST!!....(nt) -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 02:59:11 (GMT)
__ __ John Stuart Mills -:- Selective Fascist Propaganda Merchant!!....(nt) -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 16:10:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ pierre latruce -:- ex pierre latruce -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 23:23:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ mantis -:- shut the fuck up! nt -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 02:10:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Come back when you can talk like an adult -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 00:14:10 (GMT)

la-ex -:- doubts about m -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 05:13:48 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- doubts about m and his Mac -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 16:57:33 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- m and his Mac -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 17:23:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ Susan -:- m, his Mac, and his minions -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 18:57:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ G -:- m, his Mac, and his minions -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 01:12:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Remy -:- m, his Mac, and his minions -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 03:15:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- A webmaster's inside information -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 11:37:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- BTW he makes a point to update his english and -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 05:51:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- AltaVista has put a break on the spamming -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 19:11:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- AltaVista has put a break on the spamming -:- Thurs, Mar 16, 2000 at 05:38:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Interesting-I didn't know Alta Vista had limits nt -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 19:29:24 (GMT)

honeybonny -:- I'm new on the line -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 04:55:26 (GMT)
__ sb -:- Don't listen to Jose: RIFL -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 06:02:20 (GMT)
__ jose jimenez -:- I'm new on the line -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 05:26:53 (GMT)
__ __ honeybonny -:- wat bedoel je mijn engels is bizar? -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 17:01:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ Happy -:- Are you Dutch? (nt) -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 18:29:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ honeybonny -:- Are you Dutch? (nt) -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 23:36:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Happy -:- The meaning of nt -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 14:41:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ ader premi -:- bizar? NT -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 17:47:22 (GMT)
__ __ Phoneypremee -:- I'm new on the line -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 10:55:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ me premi to -:- I'm new on the line :mi to -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 16:34:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Tami Sunshine Rainbow -:- Varry funee -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 18:55:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ me premi tu -:- Varry funee -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 02:25:43 (GMT)

Helen's' Cat -:- Rissoles -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 02:18:34 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- Rissoles -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 21:56:00 (GMT)
__ __ Stonor -:- just a question/quote/comment -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 17:04:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- just a question/quote/comment -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 21:17:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Helen's Cat -:- Helen's Cat, and a little tapeworm called Max -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 07:31:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Yeah, so? -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 12:09:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ The tape worm -:- The trouble with generalisations -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 12:54:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- Careful, TTW -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 23:20:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ TTW -:- Careful, TTW -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 05:55:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- Careful, TTW -:- Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 15:44:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Nice synthesis - I like it - it works! :-) (st) -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 21:32:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Nice synthesis - I like it - it works! :-) (st) -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 21:58:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Catch 22 defining the non-empirically quantifiable -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 00:01:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Here goes nothing as me gran used to say -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 17:17:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Here goes nothing as me gran used to say -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 19:52:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ James Brown -:- I got it! -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 20:37:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- The REAL James Brown? Can I kiss your feet? ( nt) -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 21:51:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ James Brown -:- Get up! -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 23:24:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- Anything but that! -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 06:57:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Yikes! Inadvertent sacrilege! -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 19:57:43 (GMT)

Jim -:- Oh my imaginary friend, you're always there! -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 01:40:09 (GMT)
__ JW -:- This is the Belief System of Premies -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 19:04:26 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Yes and don't forget what the REAL lesson was -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 19:30:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- Yes and don't forget what the REAL lesson was -:- Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 18:17:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ G -:- where does today's premie take their self-identi- -:- Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 05:18:40 (GMT)
__ Coach -:- 'Imaginary friends.' -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 16:48:51 (GMT)
__ DOD -:- Oh my imaginary friend, you're always there! -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 01:53:15 (GMT)
__ __ sb -:- ROFL (nt) -:- Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 02:09:23 (GMT)


Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 14:12:05 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Champion Meditator and Other Rubbish
Message:
I spent last night with an ex-premie friend and we were reminiscing about times past. He recalled a sponsored meditation to raise funds for DLM/EV in the early eighties. He was the only one who lasted the full 12 hours! He also recalled a service he had called the brother/sister service. Premies would go and visit other premies who hadn't been seen for a while. It appears he was less successful in getting them back to the lotus feet as he was at getting them into bed. Strangely he concentrated his missionary efforts only on the female errant lovers of the lord.

Now that's what I call service!!!

He also showed me an excellent interview with Maharaji from 1972 where he is asked what's it's like to be Lord of the Universe. I'll publish the Lord's answer when I have more time!

John.

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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 12:31:51 (GMT)
From: JB
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Can't wait (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 14:20:44 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Hi John, Thanks. Please find time to publish (nt)
Message:
i
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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 11:00:25 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Wheen's World - I REALLY LOVE YOUR LOTUS FEET
Message:
For those (like me) who missed this article first time round:


21 July 1999, The Guardian, p.5

Wheen's World / Features

Francis Wheen




I REALLY LOVE YOUR LOTUS FEET


Jonathan Cainer, the Daily Mail's resident stargazer, has taken umbrage at my suggestion that he is a devotee of Maharaji, the tubby preacher who used to call himself the Guru Maharaj Ji. Why, then, does he maintain a large website devoted to the old boy? `I'm a keen aficionado of Maharaji's work and his message,' Cainer explains, in a `very personal statement' posted on the website replying to my article last week. `But I really have to reject that devotion notion. It implies some kind of religious faith and if this is a religion or faith, that's the first I have heard of it in my 20-odd years of involvement.'

Tut tut: Cainer clearly hasn't been paying attention. Maharaji himself dealt with the `devotion notion' when addressing more than 50,000 followers in New Delhi on April 13 1991: `What has a devotee to become? A devotee has to become a receptacle. And what has a disciple to become? A disciple too has to become a receptacle. Whatever you name him, he is meant to be a vessel, meant to be empty . . . You have to turn to the Master and pray to him to give you prudence - `Maharaji, please give me wisdom . . . If my attention is diverted somewhere else, O my Lord, please call me back to you . . . I do not know what is good for me. But you know best.''

Cainer says Maharaji has never claimed to be `some kind of divinity'. In fact, he has often done just that. Interviewed by the Divine Times newspaper in February 1973, he described himself as `the Supremest Lord in person'. In February 1982 he advised aficionados that `by yourself you cannot do anything, but I can do everything . . . I am the law, in which rests the movement of the stars and the growth of each living cell'.

At another New Delhi rally, on November 9 1990, he announced that `the guru is such a personality about whom it is said: `I bow down to the lotus-feet of my Guru Maharaji, who is the ocean of mercy and is actually Hari (God) himself in human form.''

Since then, Maharaji has been more cautious, presenting himself merely as a Master of Meditation. But I have it on the best possible authority that he hasn't changed his views: only last Saturday, the Maharaji assured a crowd in Barcelona that his message `is always the same'.

How could Cainer fail to notice? I can only assume that he has been too busy admiring the fragrant lotus-feet of the editor of the Daily Mail.



©Guardian Unlimited 1999

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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 02:53:21 (GMT)
From: star
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: John Cainer the LIAR nt
Message:
dfth
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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 13:13:49 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: I REALLY LOVE YOUR LOTUS FEET- NOT!
Message:
Hi cq,

Thanks for posting that article. Is it the one mention a month or so a go? You mention that The Guardian published it? In the UK?

Thanks.

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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 15:48:55 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Love your lotus feet we do - NOT!
Message:
The article about a month ago was in 'Private Eye'.

This one was from the Guardian, September last year.

You can access the Guardian archives here (link)

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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 00:40:43 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: WE'll never kiss your 'lotus feet. THANKS! (nt)
Message:
yuck!
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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 19:03:39 (GMT)
From: a-z
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Love your lotus feet we do - NOT!
Message:
Correction
NOT master of meditation,
MASTER OF LIFE
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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 20:44:04 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: a-z
Subject: So he's NOT a master of meditation?
Message:
So he's NOT a master of meditation?

(and calling yourself a Master of Life is shirley no prob for the rest of us)

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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 22:11:38 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: a-z
Subject: I DO NOT Love your lotus feet (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 09:21:42 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Jerry, bb,selene, whoever
Subject: DJ's live on the net (OT)
Message:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio1/inside_r1/schedules.shtml

If you're looking for some live dj's, on the net, you need RealAudio, here's an interesting schedule.

Fast (drum & bass) = Fabio & Grooverider, Gr'rider's a lot harder

Gilles Peterson, very chilled, anything from rare groove, brazilian house, jazz to drum & bass, very eclectic

In the mix sat night 2am, across the board, tends toward the more commercial end of trance, but some weeks much deeper

Andy Kershaw, world musics

For those interested, Zoe Ball is married to Fatboy Slim

The weekend is pretty much solid modern dance stuff, Friday tea time to Sunday

All times GMT

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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 21:42:50 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: jc@jethro666.screaming,net
To: EX-MUG
Subject: SYDA YOGA
Message:
Hi ex-mug howya doing, Please note my new email address.
Here is a post from another forum that I think you maybe interested in. Take care Jethro

Hi, folks. I haven't posted here before. I spent 5 years in the SYDA organization ('Siddha Yoga,' which was led by Swami Muktananda, & is now led by Gurumayi Chidvilasananda).
I agree with the person who wrote that, rather than using this label 'cult', it's better to look at the specifics about what's gone in in a group. To that end, here's some background on SYDA.

During Muktananda's day, word began to get out that he'd been initiating sexual contact with devotees, some as young as 14. The charges came from several devotees who'd been close to the guru & had left due to his misbehavior, & has been confirmed by some of the girls themselves. It's been detailed in 'New Yorker' magazine; see http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/1633/

Though I lived full-time in SYDA ashrams, I was never in the 'inner circle'. But when I talked to people who *were* close to the guru personally, none of them had any doubt that the charges were true (though some found ways to minimize or rationalize Muktananda's acts, much in the way SADHU1 is doing here).

The other reason that I've got no doubt the charges are true is Muktananda's own response to them. He never denied telling the girls to strip so he could fondle them. In his 'Message from Baba' distributed in June 82, he compared himself to Jesus, & his accusers to those who crucified Jesus. He said, 'So what is the big deal? This is just the way of the world. You should be happy that I am still alive and healthy and that they haven't tried to hang me.' People can decide for themselves whether this is the way an innocent man would respond.

Muktananda continued, '...the thing that surprises me the most is that you have suddenly forgotten all the experiences that you have had.' This is a strange comment, since not one of his accusers had ever given the slightest evidence that they'd forgotten their mediation experiences. Muktananda was trying to suggest that since he'd taught folks to get these wonderful experiences, his own conduct should be beyond question. This makes no sense to me, & it seems to be the same illogic that SADHU1 is using.

SADHU1 write:
>I did not worship the individual Swami
>Muktananda, I worshipped the God within
>myself and within Him.

It was not 'the God within' that fondled underaged girls, it was the individual Swami Muktananda. If you were only worshipping the God within, I don't understand why that leads to your attempt to excuse the behavior of that individual.

Though I know that practices such as those taught in SYDA indeed give people *very* nice inner feelings, & may benefit their lives in various ways... when it leads folks to lose all concern for anything but their own good feelings, it's not worth it.

>The main difference was that He was fully
>aware of the Divinity within Himself

This is pure speculation. SADHU1 has got no way of knowing what Muktananda was or wasn't inwardly aware of. It's very common for folks attached to such a group or religion to take speculation like this & state it as if it were fact.

>The situation you describe about a
>molester could not occur, in my opinion,
>due to the nature of the SatGuru. In
>other words in order to become a realized
>or an enlightened being the actions that
>one performs precludes this type of
>activity.

The fact that SYDA is filled with folks who believe this (that the guru can do no wrong) is precisely what makes it so easy for the guru to get away with anything.

That Muktananda was realized or enlightened or whatever is more pure speculation; how could that 'preclude' anything?

>So if one does 'bad actions' then they
>cannot become a True Guru. It is an
>impossibility.

And again, this speculation that Muktananda is a True Guru or whatever doesn't prove anything. It's just a way for followers to avoid the messy & difficult task of thinking for themselves.

However, I'd say that if someone follows a teacher, it's their *responsibility* to correct the teacher when he screws up, rather than just pretending that such bad actions are 'an impossibility.'

>So relax about it. The Universe is in
>control and everything is perfect.

This is a common attitude among SYDA defenders. If other people are suffering, just ignore it, 'relax about it.' All that matters is keeping our own inner good feelings.

I say that simple, ordinary, decent human beings *do* care about actions that harm others. This attitude of ignoring everything but one's own good feelings is a *terrible* teaching.

Stuart
sresnick@slip.net
http://www.slip.net/~sresnick/mypage.shtml

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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 01:42:40 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: SYDA YOGA
Message:
Jethro:

Re: 'Though I lived full-time in SYDA ashrams, I was never in the 'inner circle'. But when I talked to people who *were* close to the guru personally, none of them had any doubt that the charges were true (though some found ways to minimize or rationalize Muktananda's acts, much in the way SADHU1 is doing here).'

I have found that in these eastern cults a rapidly pulsating inner circle is a sure sign that there's something rinky where it's stinky.

--Scott

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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 22:21:30 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: SYDA YOGA
Message:
Great post, thanks for copying it here. Stuart really has it right about what bullshit that attitude is when: 'everything's great with the world as long as I am having a blissful experience.' It's really frightening how people can look the other way once they have become conditioned to.

Uk, GuruS! Send them all to work cleaning toilets!

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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 18:36:21 (GMT)
From: JB
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: SYDA YOGA
Message:
I'm very interested in Siddha Yoga info since my brother in law has been involved for over 20 years. I've posted material from that website myself bec it was so similar to things we all talk about.
Thanks and pls con't.
JB
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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 19:52:51 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: JB
Subject: SYDA YOGA
Message:
Chidvilasanda had me thrown out of an ashram. In post-premie days, I used to meditate there (and do some service for that priviledge).

Could it have been that I was dating one of the devotees and that was a nono? Or was it as simple as I wasn't buying any seminars? It was a little odd because there wasn't an incident associated with it. I was just sent packing one day.

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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 03:47:01 (GMT)
From: pissed
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: It is always the case
Message:
All the guru types are sickos.
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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 21:44:06 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: The above post is to EX-MUG (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 14:46:55 (GMT)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: ex-mug
Subject: Guru-pedophiles
Message:
Muktananda really appears to have been exceptionally bad. Strange that several gurus are pedophiles - Satya Sai Baba into young boys, Muktananda into young girls.And we have the Jagdeo case. Must have something to do with the strange ideas about sex being 'bad', kundalini, etc. They try to supress the urge, then it becomes weird instead?
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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 17:38:32 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk
To: Happy
Subject: Guru-pedophiles
Message:
They have that in common with some Catholic Priests. It seems to me that to try to deny one's human nature is a most unnatural act. The trouble is, these 'religious leaders' try to take others down the path of human nature denial and the suffering and damage which they bring upon themselves and others is incalculable.

Methinks these religions and isms stink!

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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 18:11:54 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Guru-paedophiles
Message:
Interesting how it appears to the general public that most cases of abuse of this sort emanate from so-called 'religious' folk.

Why else would they pose behind an organisation/religion/cult that supposedly disapproves of such activities?

Less likely to be found out, perhaps?

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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 23:13:59 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Guru-paedophiles/the celibacy issue
Message:
Or isn't it really just the celibacy issue as with Catholic priests? I sure would be curious to see if their is a lot of sexuality in Tibetan and other monasteries. Obviously, it's never a 100% solution to ask people to forego sex (but then neither is marriage as monogamy).

But it does seem so impossible to ask that of people- it almost has to backfire.

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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 00:21:23 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Guru-paedophiles/the celibacy issue
Message:
The Buddist monks also have the same problem. I've heard about Buddist monks in Vietnam who have been accused and imprisoned for rape. I don't know more than that without asking my Vietnamese friends more.
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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 05:56:09 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Guru-paedophiles/the celibacy issue
Message:
Dave:

I had an activist friend named 'Lupe' who was one of the original founders of Citizen Action. She eventually decided to become a nun for the sake of the companionship, but wanted to also be able to have the occasional heterosexual affair. She eventually found an order that had a tradition of 'looking the other way' and is now doing just peachy. Creative social capital. Don't know if the priestly orders have the same traditions.

--Scott

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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 03:02:38 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: monastics/the celibacy issue
Message:
Some monks are not traditionally expected to stay (for the most part). I know that was the case in Tibet. I've heard Shaolin monks say they don't believe in celibacy.

Dunno, there are monastics all over the east and west.

The Pope use to be a warring family man in earlier times. Anyway, seems like an awfully impossible task to set for oneself. I know there are some people who can handle it but not many. Nothing that could be safely relied on to prevent rape.

I guess this is part of the Pope's recent apologies.

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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 20:09:51 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: I want to squeeze her face -- hard
Message:
More from ELK:

Janice Wilson: Blissful problems

From Baldwinsville, New York

I'm starting to get worried about myself :)
Today I found myself walking around town
drunken with bliss.
I walked to the park to indulge,
after my doctor's appointment and errands.

I realized I have a new goal,
to see how much bliss I can feel
each day between now and when I checkout

I've also realized that I have a problem,
not enough lifetime left to get to the top
or bottom of this bliss, joy, love
One lifetime isn't enough to begin to experience it,
I'm definitely going to have to come back again!

Please you dear one who listen,
can I get another and another and another
lifetime to be here with my heart,
this Knowledge, You?

Oh the beautiful sweet problems
of being a student of enjoying,
appreciating this life :)

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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 13:12:10 (GMT)
From: JB
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I want to squeeze her face -- hard
Message:
Talk about full circle-
Did you read above that my broth in law has been into Siddha Yoda for over 20 years? Well, he lives in Baldwinsville, NY!
I tried to look up Janice Wilson last week in the phone book
but she's unlisted or doesn't have a phone in her name. Do you know how small B-ville is? Very. I mean, it's a village/township - very rural,farmland - 16 miles or so from Syracuse for those that aren't fr USA.
Small world.
How interesting of all the En Life passages you would pick the most prolific Ms. Wilson.
Thanks,

JB

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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 19:49:34 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: JB
Subject: Super-premies and human beings
Message:
There has always been this anomoly. I've never yet figured it out. In my premie days there were the majority of premies and then there were the super-premies.

The super-premies didn't only see light but they saw Maharaji in the light too. They would experience infinite bliss every time they got darshan. They never knew what it was like to me a miserable, pissed off person and they didn't seem human to me.

Maybe I never listened to the master. Yeah, that must be it.

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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 20:06:43 (GMT)
From: JB
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Super-premies and human beings
Message:
Honey, you're being much too hard on yourself.You're probably the most human person I read and all those other premies are bad,bad people. You're perfect just the way you are,darlin'.
Much better than them.

JB

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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 01:38:16 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I want to squeeze her face -- hard
Message:
Well Jim

Just goes to show what nasty, sadistic little men you and 'Dr Crane' are, doesn't it

Mel

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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 03:33:25 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Not really
Message:
Mel,

I think what it's really indicative of is the disgust people can feel in the face of outrageous, sugary-sweet, candied personalities.

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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 07:52:53 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Really?
Message:
Jim

Disgust to the point of the verbal expression of a violent wish?

At what point does this 'disgust' lead to real physical violence? I'm sure many violent acts are committed as a result of 'disgust', so maybe you should review your reactions and feelings to your disgust in view of the wish you expressed, you may be further along the path to it's direct physical expression than you would care to admit. In my view most of your posts here are indicative of your extremely aggressive attitude and could certainly be construed as 'verbal violence'.

Was your comment a threat of physical violence to this lady? If not, maybe you would like to retract it as merely a momentary exaggerated expression of outrage. Which is it to be?

Mel

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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 21:17:18 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: I want to squeeze YOUR face hard
Message:
Mel,

Do you think you might have this a little out of the proper perspective?

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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 09:09:14 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Oh fuck off, you guru-worshipping nitwit!
Message:
Mel,

You're just being typical dumb ol' Mel, huh? Lost in a world of your own. Tell me, Mel, how many pictures of the Hamster do you have? How many are framed? How many videos? Tapes? Books? Souvenirs? Does he really fill your world, Mel? Idiot!

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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 03:23:37 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Oh fuck off, you guru-worshipping nitwit!
Message:
Was your comment a threat of physical violence to this lady? If not, maybe you would like to retract it as merely a momentary exaggerated expression of outrage. Which is it to be?

Come on Jim, answer the question and stop evading the issue.

Mel

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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 08:37:56 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Mel, righteous anger, never felt it? (nt)
Message:
a
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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 03:16:24 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Mel, righteous anger, never felt it?
Message:
Hamzen

Of course I've felt anger, but I think we can delude ourselves about it's 'righteousness'. To feel angry about crimes against humanity could be regarded as legitimate 'righteous' anger, maybe, but I hardly think Jim's anger qualifies in this way because it's based on his prejudice and hatred for Maharaji and premies, it is an anger based on intolerance. So where's it's 'righteousness'? I don't see it.

Mel

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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 04:48:26 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Mel, righteous anger, never felt it?
Message:
Mel,

That's idiotic. Jim's anger is not based on ignorant prejudice. It is based on his own personal experience that he was ripped off by Maharaji and that, in his opinion, and the opinion of many others who used to worship him, Maharaji has ripped off thousands of people and has become fabulously wealthy as a result. This is not mere 'prejudice' and to the extent there is 'hatred,' which, by the way, you have know way of knowing, it is not the basis of anger, but the result, again based on personal experience.

You know Mel, you are a very agressive person, but the agression is hidden in this aura of pacifism. Your agression is of the passive variety. I'll take active over passive aggression anytime. It's more honest, healthier, and less neurotic.

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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 09:17:27 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Mel, righteous anger, never felt it?
Message:
JW

Inspite of all that you have said, does that still give Jim justification to give vent to his anger in such an intimidating way towards someone he doesn't even know? Read his comment again and tell me that the aggression isn't threatening and intimidating, if the lady concerned were to read his comment don't you think that SHE would feel threatened and intimidated?

As to your comments about my aggression being 'hidden in an aura of pacificism'. Your definetely wrong. I generally express my anger quite directly, however I DO NOT convey it in obscene abuse, or by implied violence in the way that you and others here describe 'active' and preferable. Also, where are your boundaries regarding the expression of 'active' aggression? If Jim feels like squeezing some innocent person's face in the way he describes, because of previous negative experiences he's had with somebody else, should he do it? Is it OK? Wouldn't it be regarded as assault in the very least?

JW, by virtue of the fact of your own well known anti-maharaji position, I am not surprised that you support Jim. However, I'm not arguing the legitimacy or otherwise of his anger, I am strongly objecting to the implied violence inherent in the 'active' way that it's been expressed, thats all.

Your a lawyer, JW, and so is Jim, so the implications of the way he expresses his anger in the public arena and the perceptions it creates shouldn't be lost on you (or him).

Mel

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 00:25:22 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Mel, righteous anger, never felt it?
Message:
Well, first of all Mel, I am not a lawyer. Let's just clear that up, okay? Talk about scandalous and vicious attacks. Plus, that is name-calling in the worst sense. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Mel, maybe you aren't passive agressive. Maybe you are just humorless. Jim is being sarcastic. He does that a lot. Have you ever met Jim? He was joking. Maybe you can say it wasn't in the best of taste. That is your opinion and you are entitled to it, but to call it some kind of agression is a little lame.

And I'm not defending what he said, I'm just saying that he has good reason to not like Maharaji very much, and be just a little annoyed when premies make what appear to be mindless, gushing testimonials to someone THEY have never met. Do you think it's normal or sane or makes any sense to express undying love for someone they have never even spoken to, don't know at all, and have never seen except up on a throne hundreds of feet away? Do you think that is commendable? Well premies do it all the time, and some of us exes did it a lot too, and so I would think you might understand how we might react when we see it.

But that doesn't mean that there is any agression or threat to anyone. Mel, we are really quite harmless.

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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 11:56:11 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Mel, righteous anger, never felt it?
Message:
Your a lawyer, JW, and so is Jim, so the implications of the way he expresses his anger in the public arena and the perceptions it creates shouldn't be lost on you (or him).

Mel, squeeze her face hard is an expression, like snap her out of it, or wake her up. So why don't you? If I was on the jury and you tried to make a case out of this, I'd enter a verdict of 'not guilty'. I think most people would.

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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 14:41:56 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Mel
Subject: They are expressions
Message:
I agree with Jerry, what Jim and Dr. Crane said are expressions. They are saying they want to do something to wake her up from her drunkenness. These expressions also connote frustration and concern. You are taking them literally, or pretending to do so. If you can't tell what they mean, I think I should kick your ass to wake you up. Just an expression now, calm down.

What do you think Jim or Dr. Crane is going to do, de-materialize, go through the internet, re-materialize and then squeeze or slap her? Get real.

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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 17:03:47 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Mel, you're just making a fool of yourself (again)
Message:
Mel,

I can't believe you've dragged intelligent people into this non-discussion. But then that's part and parcel of talking with premies. It's like getting into the wading pool with you idiots. Done for a lark, vengeance or maybe as some sort of 'public service', the important thing is to remember to not drink the water. Not with whiny little twerps like you splashing in it.

A threat is only a threat in the law if it

REASONABLY

gives rise to fear of bodily harm or injury. Only a complete fool would construe my comment that way. Congratulations, asshole, you've done it again. You've shown us all how pathetic a gesture it is to try to shield the guru and, in this case, his damaged flock.
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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 01:27:45 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Not as big a fool as your are Jim
Message:
Jim

Irrespective of our differing views on Maharaji, your personal comments about me and the defence of your comments made by your supporters, three facts remain on this issue:

1. You made what could be construed as physically threatening comments regarding the lady.

2. JB attempted to find out where the lady lived using a telephone book.

3. Both you and JB are ex-premies and have demonstrated extreme hostility to Maharaji and premies on this site.

Given these simple undeniable facts, the lady concerned could 'reasonably' make a case that she was in 'fear of bodily harm or injury'.

The issue for you is, of course, would the defences that your supporters have put up on your behalf ('he was only joking, your honour'....'it was just a harmless expression designed to snap her out of her delusion, your honour'...) stand up in court, defences similar to what magistrates must hear day in and day out from stalkers, domestic violence, etc, etc.

Jim, take off your 'Maharaji prejudice' hat and put your innate arrogance aside for a minute; you know what I'm saying isn't as far fetched as you would like to publically portray, you know that a solid case could be made against you and this web site. Now respond to this honestly without resorting to the intimidating personal abuse you love to stoop to when you don't have a coherent answer.

In my view I think you should publically apologise on this forum to the lady concerned for any fear, hurt and embarrasment that may have been caused to her by your comment. Maybe an apology should also be forthcoming from the web site management for allowing publication of your comment in the first place.

Mel

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 02:09:11 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Fuck you (not literally, of course)
Message:
I guess after months and years of avoiding the obvious import of your cult leader's words you're ready to go to town on mine. Well that's hilarious. You say:

1. You made what could be construed as physically threatening comments regarding the lady.

'Could' is a pretty wide open word there, Mel. For example, you could be construed as the next-Perfect Master-in-waiting. Why not? 'Could' is like that. But add 'reasonably' to the mix and you're shit out of luck, bud. No one, not even your dippy cult-colleague, whatever her name is, herself, could reasonably find a threat in my post. That's preposterous.

But then you don't do 'reasonable', do you? It's not your 'thing'? You follow the former teenage Lord of the Universe, after all. What's reasonable about that?


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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 06:12:47 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Fuck you (not literally, of course)
Message:
Jim

This is, no doubt, the bluster you would use as an argument in a court to defend yourself. However, you haven't commented on points 2 or 3, because, of course, you would have to concede that in conjunction with your comment the lady could make a 'reasonable' case regarding threats to her well being and that a magistrate would probably agree with her!

I (and others) await your unreserved apology!

Mel

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 07:00:26 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Fuck you (not literally, of course)
Message:
you would have to concede that in conjunction with your comment the lady could make a 'reasonable' case regarding threats to her well being and that a magistrate would probably agree with her!

No, no and no. Wrong. As in 'no'. No 'reasonable' case, no threat, and you're a bigger idiot than ever.

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 09:25:17 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim's in denial, folks....
Message:
....with all his emphatic 'no's' without any rational explanation. Come on Jim, you can do better than this! Your credibility is at stake here!!

BTW - still awaiting the apology!

Mel

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 17:53:53 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: NO Mel, once again you are totally wrong!
Message:
Mel: You said, 'Come on Jim, you can do better than this! Your credibility is at stake here!!'

While Jim needs no help from me to..... ahem.... defend himself against your extreme form of silliness, I just can't let your little rediculous comment go unanswered.

NO, Jim's credibility is not a stake here..... YOURS IS! Oh, wait a minute, you don't have any!

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 17:18:18 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: No, you idiot, I'm in what's called 'disagreement'
Message:
You're like a cartoon character, Mel. A complete buffoon. Okay, so what we're fighting about is the notion of 'reasonableness' in this particular circumstance. I say it'd be unreasonable for someone to think I was actually threatening Ms. Wilson, that any reasonable person would have absolutely no doubt that my post was figurative and that you're a flaming idiot.

Consider this. Say Ms. Wilson thought like you and went to her local constabulary who then contacted my local constabulary to get a 'peace bond' or restraining order against me. She'd be welcome to one via the courts so long as she could establish that she had a reasonable fear of physical injury. Fine.

So Ms. Wilson would have, as evidence, a post by me saying that I'd like to 'squeeze her face -- hard' in realtion to a completely brainless expression of fealty to her cult overlord. I say that any judge in the world would look at the context (i.e. the fact that I don't know her, have never hurt or threatened her 'before', have indicated no plan or effort to meet her, let alone hurt her, most importantly, was using an expression more reminiscent of the 3 Stooges than anything else, have spent the better part of four years arguing vehemently that you cult members need to give yourselves a serious shake [no threat there, Mel, relax], etc.) Said judge would, in my humble opinion, toss her application out of court faster than you could say 'Maharaji never claimed to be God' or Ms. Wilson could say 'Maharaji IS God!'.

So that's what I have to say about that.

But your problem, Mel, is that you don't know what 'reasonable' is. You're the guy, don't forget, who said that all of the many, many quotes wherein Maharaji claimed to be God don't prove in the least that, well, that Maharaji ever claimed to be God! We've argued about reasonableness before, Mel, and you've been found sorely lacking. Fact is, bucko, you've got no credibility here. No one respects you. You're an anonymous icon of cult thinking and that's about it.

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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 20:41:06 (GMT)
From: Dr. Crane
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I want to slap her -- silly
Message:
I want to try to wake her up to realize what a giggly stupor she is living in.
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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 19:39:15 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: This ain't exactly science
Message:
Found this on ELK:

Ivete Belfort Mattos

Love never ends

[Ivete Belfort Mattos from Sao Paolo is 44 years old and has worked as a business administrator in Brazil, Europe and the United States. She found Knowledge without knowing she was looking for it.]

In my life, Knowledge was an unexpected star that fell shining in my path.
.
It started when I first heard Maharaji talking about Knowledge. It was clear in my mind, 'This is man is a master. The one that I will always listen to.' Almost 20 years have passed since that day when I first heard a video of him in front of a small audience. He was talking about an experience that I had not really been looking for...

At this time, I was living where I was born in Brazil, a city called Sao Paulo, the largest city in South America. I had read so many books. I studied a lot. However, I was not searching for anything. I never did. My life was well organised, I had all my diplomas, professional experience, family, love, etc...

When I heard Maharaji's video talking about Knowledge, it was so clear, so wise. I was completely shocked. I was mute. I felt sure that this was a great opportunity to really learn more and be truly happy. So I began a new process of discovery, learning more about Knowledge and Maharaji, and immersing myself in that feeling which always manifested whenever I made the effort to draw nearer to it.

It was hard for me to request or convince an instructor that I needed Knowledge. Yet a new reality was so evident in my heart. It was clear that I loved Maharaji and that I really wanted to pursue Knowledge in my life. To my surprise, the instructor was great and patient with me.

I received the techniques of Knowledge in May 1982 when Maharaji was in Sao Paulo. I saw him a few hours later. At this time there was a party, where we could see him. It was great.

Still there is such a great opportunity for happiness, full of love. Still I need to listen him. Still I participate taking care to assist as much as I can with people who wish to receive and enjoy this precious gift without barriers. Still I am learning a lot. Still I try to express all my gratitude. Thank you! Love!

(my emphasis)

Pavlov, anyone?

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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 12:16:25 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: A parallel universe
Message:
The sort of arguments which go on here are far from unique. Click here to read the same arguments by devotees and ex-devotees of Mataji. Be sure to read the posts by Jennifer Landis and Shailendra Randev and see if they don't sound familiar.

Mataji's site can be found if you go to Incarnations of God and click on her picture.

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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 01:15:42 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: A parallel universe
Message:
Dave:

Good lord, this isn't the second career of Ma Anand Shiela is it? I was around when the Rajneeshi hijacked Anelope Oregon by importing bums from all over the state to vote. It was really fashionable in Oregon for awhile to go check out what the Rajneeshi were doing... but of course eventually became a running joke. I still have the wool cap I wore on Holloween when I went dressed as Rajneesh. I once ate in a restaurant next to Ma Anand, who was Rajneesh's apologist and spokesman. This couldn't be her. She was a brash nasty talking aggressive lawyer who probably ended up on K Street. I tried to check out and post to their forum, but can't seem to get the link to work.

--Scott

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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 01:53:39 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: A parallel universe
Message:
It probably is the same person. Someone here said that she used to be Rajknees devotee before she became God.

I've just tried the link and it worked for me. Perhaps it's just a temporary problem.

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 04:46:39 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: A parallel universe
Message:
Dave:

When I click on the link you gave then I can read your posts and those of the other contributors, but I can't figure out how to post anything there myself. When I go to the forum through the Sahaja Yoga Facts page (and the links page within that) then I can post and respond, but the posts are not the same as the site you listed. Yours and Bills aren't there, and most posts are quite old (several months). Can't make any sense out of anything. Have given up for the time being, but this is as confusing as the Rajneeshi always were. Must be a kundalini thing. (He's Hudini's brother.)

--Scott

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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 13:35:00 (GMT)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Not Sheila
Message:
No, Nirmala Devi is not Sheila, she's another nutcase.
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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 04:29:21 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: A parallel universe
Message:
Dave:

She was sitting at the next table in a restaurant in Salem where I was eating lunch with my mother. I recall her saying something insulting to my mom as she got up to leave, because mom is overweight or had red hair or something. Maybe my mother was staring and she was in an ugly mood about the lack of sex. What a whump. I'll try the site later.

--Scott

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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 13:39:52 (GMT)
From: Sorry,forgive me
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: A parallel universe
Message:
I had to not post my name because no one would ever respect me again.
But...a long long time ago - 1973 - I prayed for something - can't remember what - well while I was meditating - but really praying - I guess I may have been talking to Mata ji-well this 'thing' happened and it was like when you're talking to a dead phone - you know it's dead and your voice is going nowhere- well...all of a sudden way in my consciousness - the other end got 'picked up' - I mean - wow - I knew Mata ji had just heard me
I think I may have ended my 'meditation' because even though it was a neat experience - it was kind a spooky.

Well, that night -I woke up in the middle of the night to this feeling of a profound presense of Mata ji herself - right ther in my bedroom - and felt this sleepy smile on my face as my 'being' was hugged and loved by this mothering feeling.

I just remember rolling over and going happily back to sleep.

The next day - and this is the only day of my life this ever happened - I felt hands on my shoulders - 'steering' me all day.
At the time I thought they were Mata ji's - but now I don't know why I would necessarily say they were hers.

Guess, you see why I don't want to be recognized. Anything I would say after that might not be taken seriously.

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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 19:00:44 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Sorry,forgive me
Subject: But you've got the wrong Mataji
Message:
Didn't you know there's at least two holy mothers? There's Mataji and there's Mata Ji. Probably scores of others too.

Do you mean Mata Ji, the Divine Holy Mother; or Mataji, the Holy Mother Divine? They don't even look the same.

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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 20:01:57 (GMT)
From: Sorry
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Whatever(nt)
Message:
NT
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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 18:20:36 (GMT)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Nirmala Devi's universe
Message:
I was eating at a restaurant in Mumbai in January this year, and at a table nearby, two super-devotees of Sri Mata Ji Nirmala Devi, former disciple of Rajneesh/Osho (though she is trying her best to hide this fact), now Satguru herself, were sitting praising her to a poor German backpacker for two hours non-stop...
It was absolutely horrible - and it sounded so familiar, that it was shocking. All these neo-Hindu cults are really about the same thing. Just different clothes. A parallell universe, well-said.

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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 05:06:40 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Happy
Subject: Post-Rajneesh
Message:
I heard just recently that a lot of Rajneesh's people are hanging out with an ex-Rajneeshim (or should it say post instead of ex) therapist around San Francisco somewhere.

RD Laing was part of the financial backing for Rajneesh- maybe they are not as pissed off as we are. Their ashrams had a lot of sex, after all. (Note: read with slightly sarcastic tone.)

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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 22:16:44 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Post-Rajneesh
Message:
Hey Run,
I had a friend who was a follower of Rajneesh, she went to one of their festivals and told me she had sex with three guys while there. I was like 'I have to get a new guru--sheesh.'

SHe was actually a lot happier and more joyful than the vacant-eyed super-premie types. I agree with what Sir D said about forced celibacy as a contributor to weird sexual expressions like pedaphilia.

I don't know--all these gurus seem like so much bullshit to me, every last one of them. To think that I could ever let them tell me what or what not to do in my personal relationships is really screwball.

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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 23:09:02 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Post-Rajneesh
Message:
Rajneesh is a story in his own, but I imagine being involved in a sex and drugs party for a few years would elicit a different kind of regret than ours did (altho some of us have somewhat similar experiences in spite of the ashram years and mentality).

But Rajneesh, with Laing as a backer and the eventual mass murder scandals coming out of his Oregon 'commune', died in disgrace while unable to find a country that would take him in. Funny, Laing died within a year and both of heart attacks as fairly young men (under 60 I think).

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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 00:21:42 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Laing, the guy who wrote Knots? nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 03:04:45 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Right, not JD Lang
Message:
But, indeed, you're ex-favorite shrink.
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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 05:36:16 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: ...or KT Lang
Message:
Yes I remember all that crap around our house, Fritz Perls, Carl Rogers and RD Lang. Growing up Unitarian (or shall I say Loon-itarian, as some folks joke). Oh and another funny book that was all the rage 'Open Marriage'. We all know what a wonderful experiment that was--ha ha.

Oh yes and there was the 'WHole Earth' catalog--what was the editor's name again? And Carlos Castaneda, and of course that book we've all dissected here many a time--'Be Here Now'. Not to give short shrift to Richard Brautigan (what the hell was he talking about), TOm RObbins, and 'The Last Unicorn'.

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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 01:08:53 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk
To: Happy
Subject: The Hindu Universe
Message:
It seems to be a Hindu phenomenon, this God in human form thing. Mataji's devotees really believe she is God in human form. They talk about her mahalila etc and talk about her universe and her creation. The Hindu philosophy allows for God in human forn to be a regular occurance and I'm sure this isn't a modern phenomenon but stretches way back into the mists of time.

Amazingly, for a few decades at least, the Hindus have been able to spread this philosophy to the West where it has been accepted for a while. Therefore such people as Maharaji, Baba, Mataji and their ilk have quite easily convinced some people that they were God. Though now, with the arrival of global and uncensored communication on the internet, these God incarnations are being closely scrutinised and their true identities and motivations are bring brought to light.

I put the Hindu belief in God in human form down to their philosophy itself which believes in such a thing as a 'realised soul'. Their belief in such a thing means that they believe a realised soul is in fact God since they believe that they merge with or become completely God. Not as God but actually God. This fundamental Hindu belief is the basis of their God in human form idea.

This is very different from Christian, Jewish or Muslim belief or Spiritualist belief but of course it is very similar to Buddist philosophy which is an offshoot of Hinduism.

In actual fact, Hindu/Buddist philosophy and belief is totally alien to anything in the West and it is only when you really study their fundamental beliefs that you realise this. Maharaji soon discovered this and realised that Hindu beliefs are unacceptable to most Westerners. Therefore he dropped much of it.

In most Western religious or spiritual beliefs, God is still the creator and we are His created but the parallel stops there because most Western beliefs believe that the individual soul is an eternal thing created by God out of love whereas the Hindu/Buddist belief is that an individual soul is an illusion.

This major sticking point between the two schools of thought must have distant and seperate roots. Because Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Spiritualism (including the Native American Indian and African religions) all adhere to one school of thaught while Hinduism and Buddism adhere to the other.

Because Eastern beliefs were new and novel to the West, they caught on during the sixties and seventies. However, in time the Western followers of these religions began to see how alien they really were to the Western mind and the Eastern religions have now lost much of their hold on the West.

The exception is a certain Westernised version of Buddism which has been toned down and is now some sort of New-Age religion. However, it is still alien to most people.

One thing which the Eastern religions have so far had on their side is the practise of meditation. While meditation can be a very powerful thing, the Hindus/Buddists have layed their own beliefs onto the experience. Therefore, a good experience from meditation meant you were 'merging with God' or being 'liberated from illusion'.

Naive or unwary Western people have accepted this idea as the truth. It is only when you really study the phenomenon of meditation such as in David Lane's work or after you've practised it for some time; it's only then that you realise that meditation is not merging with God or being liberated from illusion but a normal experience that can be had by anyone who cares to concentrate.

Just as people can have experiences from exercising, partaking in sport, taking drugs or just normal activities, so we can have experiences from doing meditation. The point I'm making is that Hinduism has hijacked these experiences and embedded them into their Hindu philosophy.

Just because an experience of meditation is real, it doesn't mean that the Hindu philosophy which has hijacked it is real. Personally, I don't think any of the Hindu/Buddist philosophy is real. But that is just how I have come to see things. Others may think differently.

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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 08:46:46 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Social Attitudes and Change
Message:
With you pretty much all the way Sir D, except for one point.

'Therefore such people as Maharaji, Baba, Mataji and their ilk have quite easily convinced some people that they were God. Though now, with the arrival of global and uncensored communication on the internet, these God incarnations are being closely scrutinised and their true identities and motivations are bring brought to light'

This was happening way before the internet was around. Remember how it was mostly idealistic young people that fuelled this guru explosion in the west late 60's early 70's. The drop off in the numbers started in the late seventies at the same time as the punk ideas of anti-naive idealism were flooding youth culture, when to be a hippy became the antithesis of cool. By the time hippy was back on the agenda in youth culture in the 90's, the whole attitude of how much it is possible to change society & personal identity had been drastically reduced.

Certainly in my conversations with a large number of young people at the cutting edge of youth culture over the last ten years they are quite coherent about why the guru culture is a complete waste of time. Committment to self & personal strength is much stronger than it was for us, but possibly more importantly their understanding of the head states that drugs open up is much more sussed. In general people are much warier about using powerful psychedelics such as LSD now, and that part of their culture that is into these kinds of chemicals has a very different take on the effects than we had.

I assume that this is as true for north america as Britain/Europe

It took a generation but thankfully....

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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 14:31:12 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Social Attitudes and Change
Message:
Thanks Hamzen,

I was always very interested in why there was so little interest in the spiritual pathways from the hip youngsters around my area.

They are really nice kids with a balanced perspective. The kids around here are really into music and dance and of course altered states through 'ecstacy'.

I sampled some of what they call acid these days and the microgram and purity level is way lower than in my youth. One certainly wouldn't lift off into another dimension on that stuff.

It looks to me like there's no way most of those kids are gonna give their power away to an uncool fat dude in a suit. Thank God! Cheers Hal.

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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 10:50:42 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: ham@hamzen.freeserve.co.uk
To: Hal
Subject: Social Attitudes and Change
Message:
Hal, would that be ex-pat kids or Portuguese?

Have you been to any dance do's yourself out there? Can't imagine a better environment for it.

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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 02:12:57 (GMT)
From: Jackie (ot)
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Sounds great - can't wait !(nt)
Message:
We love dancing, warm evenings and Floris perfume. Hope there aren't too many mosquitos though.
Looking forward very much to hearing from you.

Bye for now,

Jackie

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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 14:18:10 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: To Hamzen
Message:
The dance scene here is very big and outdoors. It includes all the nationalities and in our area an age group of 15-55yrs! The vibe is always superb and inclusive of everyone.I bet you'd love it. Hal
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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 17:04:15 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Is that a touch of jealousy I feel coming on
Message:
Outdoors, you're taking me back, the brilliant ones for me have always been outdoors.

Do you know what the music policy is, ie what kind of house gets played?

And exactly the way people wanted to feel at festivals with mr oh-so-special, the irony of it all or what.

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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 10:25:48 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Sorry bruv no info on that (nt)
Message:
p
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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 10:44:43 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: answer me. rest. answer me.
Message:
Got this email today. I always get a kick out of premie email 'disguised' as third-party disinterest. The part that gives them away is that they feel motivated to write in the first place, even though they omit any references to being personally involved with the subject matter on the site. But it's pure premie - except the author is a follower of someone named 'miraj Ji'.

you guy's are really bitter. who cares? what church doesn't take more? is this man not doing his job? did you give and feel cheated? is this about you? never have any of these people ever caused nearly as much harm as your tone seems to have clamed rest. when were you told to give? were you told to give more than you thought you should? were you told to give? is this man not doing his job? answer me. there is no harm as far as i can see. who cares about a man's ego as long as what he offers is beneficial to you? name me one service that does not retain this reward. don't point out the obvious fears that America has for 'cults' give me specific offenses or tell me what you are about. rest. were you told to stop doing what you were doing or did you just stop doing what were doing? were you negatively influenced by miraj Ji or by his followers? or yourself? answer my questions. your website does not though it tries to.

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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 10:27:48 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: For all your hamster needs
Message:
To see the whole picture just go to Not Maharaji's Mixed Bag and the dancing hamsters will show you around.

Have a look at the Great Worldwide Linkup there which has some new posts from people you might know. Also, the onsite search engine will search all of the ex-premie sites together.

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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 10:31:11 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: and for all premies' needs: NEW DARSHAN PAGE
Message:
Here on my website:

Rare Darshan Pictures now online.

More pictures wanted !

Here's my email if you want to contribute: jmkahn@club-internet.fr

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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 03:36:23 (GMT)
From: archive
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: that is Toronto Nov74 not LA.(nt)
Message:
gh
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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 10:35:27 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: archive
Subject: there are 2 LA pictures on that page, which one???
Message:
one is durga pranaming
the other one is darshan!
which one is toronto?
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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 13:12:58 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: archive
Subject: that is Toronto Nov74: are you sure?
Message:
this is not what DT says .... but who cares?
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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 15:05:06 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Hey, JM
Message:
JM: I remember an old picture (haven't seen it in ages) that was taken at the prem nagar ashram, I think. It used to be everywhere. It was a picture of M (I think he was walking with hanuman-incarnate.... you know the guy with the huge mustache) and a bunch of premies are 'hitting the deck,' full-sprawl in front of him. If I remember correctly, he's pointing at one of them and it looks like he's laughing (or smiling really big). I can't believe, as prevalent as that particular photo was, that no one has come up with it.... :-)
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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 18:23:39 (GMT)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Hanuman incarnate
Message:
Hanuman incarnate - that was Bihari Singh, wasn't it? M's bodyguard at that time, said to have been a previous criminal. Harasssed by M in the most gruesome ways.
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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 21:00:41 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Happy
Subject: I thought that I answered....... sorry!
Message:
Happy: I think you are correct. I saw the post from you and JB below. Right on the money...... He was a good cook, too (soemthing that I know a bit about......judging from my caloric intake..... he he he).

I have some pleasant memories of he and meeting-without-eating-is-cheating-Rajeswar! Despite M's influence, both a couple of pretty folks, as I recall :-) At least they had the eating priority correct..... he he he.

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 05:53:27 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Rajeswar
Message:
I think Rajeswar was the guy who showed me how to make puris, you know, the deep-fried bread that puffs up. Now there was a guy who liked to eat.
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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 16:15:40 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: G
Subject: It wouldn't surprise me
Message:
G: He was a great cook. I think he should have been a chef in an expensive indian restaurant. He was that good, in my opinion. I'm no slouch when it comes to cooking fine/exotic foods (if the resulting commentary is any indication) and he blew-me-away! I got to cook with him on several occasions and I learned alot from him, that's for sure. It was alot of fun, too! He was a real joker.... liked to have fun!

Of course, he was a judge and they may make a bit more money, I dunno. :-)

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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 13:55:48 (GMT)
From: JB
Email: None
To: Happy
Subject: Hanuman incarnate,Bahari
Message:
Bahari taught me to cook the best Indian deserts right in my non ashram kitchen. Great guy. But I gained wait that year. Too much butter and sugar,never again.
JB
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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 18:02:47 (GMT)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: JB
Subject: Hanuman incarnate,Bahari
Message:
Sounds great. I always like the guy.
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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 17:16:15 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: OK, but look at these: even MORE darshan pictures!
Message:
I don't understand why I didn't have these online sooner !!

Even More Darshan Pictures

Don't hesitate to share your precious treasures with your brothers and sisters! Find that old album in your drawer ....

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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 20:19:22 (GMT)
From: a-z
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: OK, but look at these: even MORE darshan pictures!
Message:
the one that says la 74 is actually toronto 'hans jayanti' 74
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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 02:08:34 (GMT)
From: mantis
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: what filth! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 22:38:24 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Good shootin', Tex! :-)
Message:
JM: You are a never-ending source...... keep it up! :-)

MAN, do I ever remember those photos! Actually, I well remember the events themselves (except the 'private' darshan..... never had that!) :-)

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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 00:45:53 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: It's not too late, Mike
Message:
Actually, I well remember the events themselves (except the 'private' darshan..... never had that!) :-)

Well, go back and get some. I'm certain that M would be more than willing to give you a private audience, being an ex and all. It'll be like a modern day version of the prodigal son. Can't you see it, Mike? M with big tears of joy in his eyes. 'Kill the fatted cow! There will be a feast tonight! My son was dead but is now alive! Oh, boo-hoo-hoo!'

Seriously, I was never on a darshan line. I didn't receive K until 1980, and didn't even see M, in person, until a few years after that. By then, he wasn't into giving darshan. I feel neglected. What a lovely dream that must have been, thinking you were resting your head on the feet of the Living Lord. Yeah, I can see where a guy/gal could get off on that, big time.

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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 14:04:11 (GMT)
From: JB
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Resting on the feet
Message:
Well, you didn't really have time to 'rest', Jerry.Just a quick peck on the socks.
Didn't want you to think you missed too much.
It was neat to look into his eyes for prolonged minutes that close. Had many of those minutes. So you may have missed that - but there was no guarantee you'd even have eye contact.
No matter what anyone thinks of M. Looking for a long time into ANY celebrity's eyes is cool.IMO
JB
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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 21:35:52 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: JB
Subject: Celebrities eyes
Message:
No matter what anyone thinks of M. Looking for a long time into ANY celebrity's eyes is cool.IMO

This past Friday, I'm in a bookstore, walking down one of the aisles, and who's heading toward me? Roy Scheider. You know, the guy from Jaws, 52 Pickup, The Seven Ups? He's one of my favorite actors. So, the aisle is narrow and there's really only room enough for one guy to walk through it. But I'm heading down the aisle and he's heading up it. So, I figure, I'll be a sport and step aside for him. I won't bother him like some stupid stargazer asking for a dumb autograph or saying something dumb like 'Hey, aren't you Roy Scheider?' I figure he probably here's shit like that all the time and doesn't want to hear any more of it from me.

So, being the nice, understanding person that I am, I smile at him and step aside. Our eyes lock. He looks at me like I'm a fucking idiot. I guess he must have figured I was about to say something to him, and he was letting me know that he didn't want to be bothered. I could give a shit. I didn't really want to be bothered, either. I'm only sorry I stepped aside for him. I should have walked right into him. Like many celebrities, he's only a little guy, and if I hadn't stepped aside for him, I would have knocked him back on his ass.

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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 03:01:35 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: I'm gonna hurry there, right NOW!
Message:
Jerry: NOT!!!!! he he he :-) Yeah, I'm sure he'd welcome me back with 'open arms'....... fire-arms, that is...... ONLY KIDDING! I know he's not into violence.... he he he :-)

You are quite right, the thought that we were in the physical presence of the ONE was overpowering for many..... ME INCLUDED! I fell for it hook, line, etc! Imagine, the chance to worship the living lord IN PERSON! What could anyone consider to be a greater honor/joy that that????? Too bad it wasn't real.... I think this was the biggest disappointment of all (for ME!). I know that alot of folks didn't care for it, but darshan was number one with me...... BOY, do I feel foolish when I think about it!

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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 05:02:46 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: m: 'It worked because you thought it would work.'
Message:
I was at a program in Manchester, England around the mid '80s. m was talking about darshan. What he said I could not process in my head, so I asked the premie what he said. The premie told me that m said

 'It worked because you thought it would work.'

I was stunned. I had devoted many years of my life to him based on the belief that he was 'the Lord'. Then he came out and said that the 'experience of darshan' was basically a placebo effect.

He said this shortly after he had stopped 'giving darshan', i.e. having premies kiss his feet.

But even after this, he started it back up again! When was it? He first started it up again in India, correct? I heard he also 'gave' darshan in Amaroo. What the hell is he going to do next, try to start ashrams again in the west? That was one dread I had.

The notion that darshan is something he 'gives' is stange. It is really the premies who are giving their idolatry and money to him.

I remember the first time I kissed his feet (shudder) I felt nothing and also felt that he missed me with the 'Holy Breath'. I looked glaringly at him thinking 'You are a con man.' Oh, if I had only trusted my instincts. Later, I think out of despiration, I made sure I experienced something. The thing is, I heard a devotee of another guru talk about 'experiencing darshan' from his guru. I suppose girls seeing the Beatles also experienced something like 'darshan'. Fanatics (including fanatical fans) generally feel something very intense in the presence of their idol(s).

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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 08:12:25 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: G
Subject: m: 'It worked because you thought it would work.'
Message:
Do you remember the slide show presentation that BBJ did at Millenium 73 with the Beatles and people screaming and all that? It definitely implied the devil's advocate view of darshun.
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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 18:01:05 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: BBJ's slide show of Beatles at Millennium 73
Message:
Runamok wrote:
Do you remember the slide show presentation that BBJ did at Millenium 73 with the Beatles and people screaming and all that? It definitely implied the devil's advocate view of darshun.

G:
I wasn't there, that shindig must have been weirder than I can imagine. What was the point of the slide show?

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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 20:21:59 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: G
Subject: BBJ's slide show of Beatles at Millennium 73
Message:
It was a sideshow and it was easy enough to miss or not pay too much attention. My sense of time after 25+ years isn't good. I couldn't tell you if the Beatles were on screen for 10 minutes or an hour, but it seems like the presentation was probably 30-60 minutes with 10-20 minutes of Beatles.

The point seemed to be that people were looking for God and then he actually came, but you could give it a more devil's advocate spin if you wanted to.

It was a weird scene. I had a green flannel, sports style banner (an elongated triangular flag) with 'Millenium '73' on it. M looked and acted a bit drunk, slurring his words (but I DO NOT know that for a fact- I would assume he was drunk, tho).

It was very overblown and there was failure in the air, altho we all rationalised it in our own ways. The Dome was supposed to be packed and it attracted at most 20k, compared to 80k capacity.

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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 18:07:05 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Now you know how a lot of older exes felt (nt)
Message:
'What a lovely dream that must have been, thinking you were resting your head on the feet of the Living Lord. Yeah, I can see where a guy/gal could get off on that, big time.'
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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 07:04:25 (GMT)
From: pierre latruce
Email: None
To: U
Subject: Pierre's post has been deleted....
Message:
...but this message from Forum Admin has been left here so that Pierre can be in no doubt that future incoherent contributions will also be deleted.

Forum Admin

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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 17:38:25 (GMT)
From: JB
Email: None
To: Forum Adm.
Subject: Pierre's post has been deleted....
Message:
Hello,
You may be too busy to ans. but what kind of things get deleted from here. I kind of can't quite imagine. Except threats on someone's life or porno maybe?
You prob have explained this before, sorry.
JB
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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 16:05:50 (GMT)
From: Nobody
Email: None
To: Forum Administrator
Subject: (nt)
Message:
wsbeykrtyuol
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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 13:56:31 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: To CAT - Ben has a point
Message:
Cat,

Why do you think anyone has a right to post rubbish here? Who pays for this site? Who keeps it running? Sir Dave has even set up a site where any rubbish can be posted by anyone.

And most importantly on this issue, why do none of the official EV sites allow discussion? Why does Maharaji not allow discussion on his site? Why doesn't he reply to emails or letters? And why do you continue to be a member of a cult where freedom of speech and thought is so blatantly absent?

Can you really not see how absurd your cult is???

John.

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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 00:41:17 (GMT)
From: Nobody
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: test (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 02:59:11 (GMT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: FASCIST!!....(nt)
Message:
Go post at the absolutley no holds barred all discussion welcome EV site
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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 16:10:45 (GMT)
From: John Stuart Mills
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Selective Fascist Propaganda Merchant!!....(nt)
Message:
ah5tk64u
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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 23:23:35 (GMT)
From: pierre latruce
Email: None
To: u
Subject: ex pierre latruce
Message:
all pierre latruce posted was....
let's debate god's existence
while the 'energy' is w/ us
and wat happens..
he gets the boot.
he feels so e-incompetent..whoa is e-him..
his e-coherence has been e-bolished fro' da e-xline.
oh well...oh e-is me. u r rite. there is no e-god/e-nergy.
sorry 4 the e-trusion on yo' xlovers e-site
but isn't dat wat exlove is all 'bout?
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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 02:10:53 (GMT)
From: mantis
Email: None
To: pierre latruce
Subject: shut the fuck up! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 00:14:10 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: pierre latruce
Subject: Come back when you can talk like an adult
Message:
How rude you are to make your posts spelling and grammatical scavenger hunts. Get lost.
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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 05:13:48 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: honeybunny
Subject: doubts about m
Message:
Honey-welcome to the forum..you have friends here, as well as insight, humour, companionship and a feeling of comraderie, as we have all been through a lot, many of it for as much as 30 years now..
I would say, if the meditation does something for you , fine , give it a try in a way that works for you.
I would also say, do not for one second believe anything any of the premies tell you if you think it sounds strange-basically, believe in your own self and folow your own instincts, rather than the crowd, which has been indoctrinated for 30 years, and longer, if you go back to the Indian beginnings.
Also, I recommend reading all the stuff you can here, as it will show you a lot of the behind the scenes stuff about maharaji that the general premie public doesn't know about.When you understand him in his private life, you will understand that there is a lot more than meets the eye, and that m is a very different person in his personal life than the act he puts on when you see him on stage. He is definitely,IMO a sociopath, liar, fraud and self absorbed person who has charisma that he uses to bring people into the fold.Don't worry, one day you will be hit up for funds, and they are huge, in order to support his opulent lifestyle.
So good luck, honey, and please check out everything, not just the prepackaged stuff served up by m and his loyal followers. (By the way, his oldest daughter just received knowledge in the last year or so, and the one who sings on stage doesn't have knowledge, which has led a lot of people to question what the hell does she know about what she is singing about!)
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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 16:57:33 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: doubts about m and his Mac
Message:
I don't believe that the techniques have been kept secret from her for all these years. That would be impossible!

By the way, there have been visits to Not Maharaji's Mixed Bag from Malibu this week by someone using a Mac. I heard that Maharaji uses a Mac.

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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 17:23:14 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: m and his Mac
Message:
There is good evidence that m uses a Mac (or Macs). The demo that 'Raja ji' gave of m's web site was done using a Mac. m has displayed a pro-Mac bias in some of his talks. Looking at the HTML code for his site, it is evident to me that it was developed using a Mac. So I think it's very likely that the person visiting Not Maharaji's Mixed Bag was either m or someone doing 'service' for m using one of his computers. Recently he said he has around 10 computers. He probably has at least one top of the line G4 with the huge flat monitor, being the connoisseur his is of expensive material things. Yet his graphics still suck.
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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 18:57:29 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: G
Subject: m, his Mac, and his minions
Message:
Given that premies tend to copy the Lard whenever possible I would guess that all good Malibu premies who have computers have Macs. Or even recent ex's who were formerly good premies.

Though we all know that anyone who is an ex was never a good premie and never really understood THAT experience anyway.

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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 01:12:30 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: m, his Mac, and his minions
Message:
You're right, there could be premies and exes in Malibu, so it might not be m or someone slaving for him visiting the site.
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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 03:15:15 (GMT)
From: Remy
Email: None
To: G
Subject: m, his Mac, and his minions
Message:
How do you know its from Malibu? Don't a lot of people use Macs?
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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 11:37:49 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Remy
Subject: A webmaster's inside information
Message:
The web counter on that page gives the webmaster (me) information about the domain and in many cases the geographical location. The domain was clearly in Malibu as it said 'Malibu' in the domain name.
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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 05:51:47 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: BTW he makes a point to update his english and
Message:
french sites so they show up in an Alta Vista advanced search with a recent date. I tried a search for maharaji and a from date of 3/3/00. It shows some of his web pages updated on 3/6/00, the same date that Not Maharaji's Mixed Bag was updated.

I don't think he wants 'Not Maharaji's Mixed Bag' to be there and not his. The thing is, why don't his other sites in other languages show up? Hmmmmm

My conclusion? That was him or a lacky who visited your site. He is quite aware and concerned about the ex sites.

My suggestion - keep updating.

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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 19:11:54 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: G
Subject: AltaVista has put a break on the spamming
Message:
I can't find Not Maharaji's Mixed Bag anywhere on the AltaVista index using a search on 'maharaji' but I did find The Truth about Maharaji which is listed as number eleven at the moment.

If you try and add a page to the AltaVista index with the word 'Maharaji' in the meta tag, the search engine refuses it and says something on the lines of there's been too much spamming.

It looks like Maharaji has taken this spam thing too far.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 16, 2000 at 05:38:01 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: AltaVista has put a break on the spamming
Message:
I don't understand what you're saying.

You mean 'adding' a new page?

My website appears somewhere, not too far on the list.

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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 19:29:24 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Interesting-I didn't know Alta Vista had limits nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 04:55:26 (GMT)
From: honeybonny
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: I'm new on the line
Message:
Hi everybody,I never knew that something like this excisted,the
forum and stuff.I've met M about 2 years ago.I like the message,
but felt pretty reluctant towards the people attending the lokale programs.So dry and seemingly not very happy.I'd wunder in what i had been dragged in? But as I said I'd liked the message,I received knowledge and have to admit that I love the meditation,I used to do all kind of meditation techniques,and thought that this one is so simpel so I stick to it,after all meditating feels good whatever meditation it is.But as a matter of fact there always been some doubts in some way but couldn't share this with no one,cause as a matter of fact many of those people follow M on his word,and have made a new religion about it.You'd also been talking about money donations,you see they never have been asking me about anything,for service yes,but I 've told them they were to complicated so they know leave me in peace now pfff...I feel fine to read some of the stuff but for some stuff I wunder if it isn't blown up a bit? I always believed that M has money brought with him from his background,and I have accepted that people wonna give him gifs,what's wrong about this?And if many people give him gifs well after a while it starts to pile up right? I don't know it tickels my curiosty but I'm not willing to believe just anything,nore from what's written here nore when M or whom ever says if I don't have a little more proof.People can say so many things and people say diffrent things,contraditionary things
you know what i mean?But I always have been curious about his big mansion,and what this piece of house has cost?
And what about his lovely daughters?They're always in the picture
At least one of them,Not everybody may just go and sing their at the stage,so why is she allways there?There are thingsthat I really don't like,regardless of what i do experience in meditation or the experience linked to it,thanks for reading and eventually responding to my message
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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 06:02:20 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: honeybonny
Subject: Don't listen to Jose: RIFL
Message:
His inglish is weird. Where are you from?
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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 05:26:53 (GMT)
From: jose jimenez
Email: None
To: honeybonny
Subject: I'm new on the line
Message:
Ho hO hooney beer I too only receeb da noligde last two years ago too. I too lika his daughters and ye seema know so mucha of this tripp hows come you really premie?
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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 17:01:07 (GMT)
From: honeybonny
Email: None
To: jose jimene
Subject: wat bedoel je mijn engels is bizar?
Message:
So wat bedoel je ?
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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 18:29:01 (GMT)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: honeybonny
Subject: Are you Dutch? (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 23:36:00 (GMT)
From: honeybonny
Email: None
To: Happy
Subject: Are you Dutch? (nt)
Message:
good on you,one of my parents is,so I do speak dutch,but my native language is french,what about you?
p.s can you tell my what (nt) means?
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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 14:41:34 (GMT)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: honeybonny
Subject: The meaning of nt
Message:
Honeybonny,

(nt) simply means no text. (so you don't have to open the post.)
No, I am not Dutch, but I spent much time in Amsterdam, I love the place. I go there practically one a year.

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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 17:47:22 (GMT)
From: ader premi
Email: None
To: honeybonny
Subject: bizar? NT
Message:
n
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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 10:55:28 (GMT)
From: Phoneypremee
Email: None
To: jose jimenez
Subject: I'm new on the line
Message:
I receevd nolidge last year in Malaysia and i dontt no wat you all aginst Maharaji for coarse i practise every day and i'm gonna go to heaven, Guroo Maraji takes you there, if yoo wanna go to heaven, Gooroo Maraaji takes you there, and evry day I meditate and i hope yore not tooo late, coarse all my sins are taken awaay ay ay.
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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 16:34:23 (GMT)
From: me premi to
Email: None
To: Phoneypremee
Subject: I'm new on the line :mi to
Message:
is et nize o no. O lobe jim bery mach to. Je's adorible.
I likle jis butiful blab, ji es so golden!

Je saive me alreadi, i m in hell, i mean, haven,

jaisatshitanad

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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 18:55:03 (GMT)
From: Tami Sunshine Rainbow
Email: None
To: me premi to
Subject: Varry funee
Message:
Yu x-primis ar so wikkid and meen. How cum you mak fun of honeyboni? His inglis iz not that gud. Wat du yu xpect? It iz a secund langwije to him.

I also dunt caar if Miriji haz big manshuns and zillions of dolurs. Hoo caars? I beeleeve nothin yu meen x-premis say.

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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 02:25:43 (GMT)
From: me premi tu
Email: None
To: Tami Sunshine Rainbow
Subject: Varry funee
Message:
i uish ol de premis tu revel tu marhiji, cose, je's vad. Evri bady jas tu scrim at jim at uance, en den, set daun en wait, en wiat, for an anser. Je is kripy. I uanto panch on de ai, rai on.

vastardo kent thinc, estupido. vad guru. veri vad.

naise tu chainge uords uit u. bi.

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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 02:18:34 (GMT)
From: Helen's' Cat
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Rissoles
Message:
'The best and most beautiful things in life cannot be
seen or even touched... they must be felt with the
heart.'
--Helen Keller
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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 21:56:00 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Helen's' Cat
Subject: Rissoles
Message:
Tell me, widdle putty cat, how come in the Knowledge session we're taught to focus on our breath, and then after that, all we ever hear, anymore, is 'listen to your heart', 'listen to your heart', ad infinitum, ad nauseum? How come we weren't just told to do that in the Knowledge session?

Hmmmm?

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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 17:04:35 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: just a question/quote/comment
Message:
I enjoyed Helen's cat's comment. Why do you assume it's from a premie?

One of my favourites from the title of a painting:

Par les yeux du coeur, la sagesse - Through the eyes of the heart, wisdom

The heart and mind can work together, they don't have to be mutually exclusive. Please don't buy into m's delusions and equate m or your concept of 'God' with 'whatever it is or whatever it has been called.'

By the way, you are right about the general western interpretation of 'god', that's how the dictionary defines 'it'. I learn something new everyday! Thanks.

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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 21:17:59 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: just a question/quote/comment
Message:
Stonor,

I 'feel' that most platitudes dealing with the 'heart' are shallow in content and don't really say very much. They leave me feeling vacant, at best a little flowery inside. I can, and desire to go much deeper than that. Besides, I'm a 'soul' man, not a heart one. Maybe if you replaced all those platitudes with the word soul, they'd mean more to me. Let's see;

Through the eyes of the soul, wisdom.

Hmmm.

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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 07:31:00 (GMT)
From: Helen's Cat
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Helen's Cat, and a little tapeworm called Max
Message:
Jerry, Premies have no ownership of affairs of the heart. Here's another one I like.
''A man may fail many times, but he isn't a failure until he
begins to blame someone else.'
--Knox Manning
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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 12:09:57 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Helen's Cat
Subject: Yeah, so?
Message:
HC,

I'm going to assume you're suggesting I've failed because I blame M for my miserable life. I can't figure why you would use that plattitude on the ex-premie forum, otherwise.

How do you know I place the full blame on Maharaji's shoulders? That's kind of presumptuous of you, don't you think? I'm aware of the role my naivete played in becoming a premie. I blame that as much as anything. That doesn't say much for M, though, does it, if it was only my naivete that drew me to him?

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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 12:54:52 (GMT)
From: The tape worm
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: The trouble with generalisations
Message:
The trouble with generalisations is that they are just too general. The first quote about the heart you naturally attributed to a premie and the second about victimhood to X premies. I didn't mean to imply that I was talking about you with that quote, just that it is one of my favourites. I'm not suggesting you've failed at anything, just making a point that everything isn't so black and white. There's a bit about naivity here....Transformations in K

Lost my heart in India.
And the worm had a child, and the child's name was Harry;)

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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 23:20:10 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: The tape worm
Subject: Careful, TTW
Message:
'Starve a tapeworm, then pull it out when it comes up for food.'

Amok family proverb

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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 05:55:10 (GMT)
From: TTW
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Careful, TTW
Message:
In my previous incarnation as a human, before I evolved all the way up to a tape worm, my brother who is a doctor, told me a story and he swears it's true. There was a guy who came to hospital with the granddaddy of all tapeworms in his body. At night when he was asleep, the worm would come partly out of his mouth and start wriggling all over his face looking for food. What a legend hey.
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Date: Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 15:44:05 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: TTW
Subject: Careful, TTW
Message:
Hey! Don't mess with my true family history!
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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 21:32:01 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Nice synthesis - I like it - it works! :-) (st)
Message:
but how do we define 'soul' ? ;-)
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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 21:58:39 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Nice synthesis - I like it - it works! :-) (st)
Message:
Stonor,

Another thing about the heart. After years, and years, and years, of hearing M talk about the heart, heart, heart, and feeling nothing, nothing, nothing, as a result, I'm just sick of it.

but how do we define 'soul' ?

That's easy - James Brown. But seriously, while James does do a good job of defining the word, it's tough to define the word in one particular way. It has many meanings. It depends on the context you're using it in.

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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 00:01:07 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Catch 22 defining the non-empirically quantifiable
Message:
Hi Jerry,

You wrote:
Another thing about the heart. After years, and years, and years, of hearing M talk about the heart, heart, heart, and feeling nothing, nothing, nothing, as a result, I'm just sick of it.

That's what I'm beginning to consider the worst of the m-effect. Not the damage to the pocket book, but to the heart. In a sense he has stolen/warped/redirected to himself what rightfully should be shared freely among All/the One. And then, as if that is not bad enough, because of this betrayal of the open hearts he lures into his minute sphere of being, he has shortcircuited Love's free flow. These aren't complete thoughts, but I am so sorry this has been done, and continues to be done by him, and others, to so many bright points of light. Anyways, if it's any consolation to you, it is his Karma, not yours. An 'm' quote from Maharaji.org - 'When you do something right, there will always be those who criticize you; when you do something wrong, there will be no one around to stop you.' Maybe his 'soul' was praying for the Ex-Forum! Jim discusses him quite compassionately in his Journey - I'm sure you've read it. I hope m does too.

(excuse me a minute Jerry) Come on m! Get out from under your father's thumb - become a human being! You can do it! I think our 'souls' and 'whatever it is' are all rooting for you!

OK, I got that out of my system. Now, how about Martin Luther King Jr. (another I'm sure Bucke would joyfully add to his list) instead of James Brown?

Dictionary says: the spiritual part of a person, regarded as the source of thought, feeling, and action . . .the essential part.

Not clear enough.

Another dictionary, 8th meaning: The moral and emotional nature as distinguished from the intellectual and scientific powers and operations.

A little better, but still not there. Hmmmmm.

Anyone else?


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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 17:17:57 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Here goes nothing as me gran used to say
Message:
Whether from the light good feeling end of being to the rooted bass end of being, any activity done with gusto and a good attitude.

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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 19:52:29 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Here goes nothing as me gran used to say
Message:
Did you make that up? It's got a nice feel to it - but watch out! - Runamok might find it too silly. And it's still two to one for 'James Brown'!

(Don't tell Runamok, but a self-proclaimed 'Soul Man' reminds me a bit of a self-proclaimed something else ;-)

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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 20:37:48 (GMT)
From: James Brown
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: I got it!
Message:
Watch me
Watch me
I got it
Watch me
I got it
Heeeeyyyyyyyy!

I got something that makes me want to shout
I got something that tells me what it's all about

I got SOUL!

And I'm super bad.

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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 21:51:06 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: James Brown
Subject: The REAL James Brown? Can I kiss your feet? ( nt)
Message:
mmmmmsssssscccchmmmmmmmaaaaaacccccccccckkkkk!!!!!!!
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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 23:24:24 (GMT)
From: James Brown
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Get up!
Message:
Get up
Get on up!
Get up
Get on up!

Use your arms
Then use your palm
Stay on the scene
Like a sex machine

You got to have the feeling
Sure as your born
Get it together
Right on, right on

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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 06:57:48 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Anything but that!
Message:
Stonor said (referring to Jerry's post:

OK, I got that out of my system. Now, how about Martin Luther King Jr. (another I'm sure Bucke would joyfully add to his list) instead of James Brown?

Runamok responds:

Hey, leave James Brown in, OK?

I mean, get serious!

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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 19:57:43 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Yikes! Inadvertent sacrilege!
Message:
Sorry Runamok, momentary lapse (let's hope) - must have been one of those waves of pre-root-canal pain that knocked me silly!
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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 01:40:09 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Oh my imaginary friend, you're always there!
Message:
Found this guy talking to himself over on ELK:

Relentless teacher

You are always teaching me, relentlessly. Sometimes it gets through to me. Life pushes me until I can no longer pretend I don't see it. Today was one of those times. A concept was revealed for what it really was and I chose to accept that instead of pretending I don't know any better. Maharaji, that's what I love so much about you - -you won't let me get away with 'playing dumb'! You demand that I give only excellence to MYSELF! Who else would do that? Your kindness and care amaze me! I am happily forever in your debt.

Premhansa Draaka
Calabasas, Ca, USA

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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 19:04:26 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: This is the Belief System of Premies
Message:
Isn't it amazing how this poor premie takes negative things that happen to her, and then turns them into some kind of a 'lesson' coming from Maharaji who lives in the ethers and enters her life to teach her for her own damn good. This is how negative experiences in life are dealt with by premies, or when they are unhappy, freaked out, or when Maharaji does or says something particularly dumb, egomaniacal, or offensive. It's a learning experience from Maharaji. We, and he, used to call it 'lila.' The cult needs an explanation as to why knowledge isn't providing the happiness that was promised.

Of course, all that is good also comes from Maharaji, not as a learning experience, but as a 'gift.' It just kinda wraps up a whole life, all that's 'good' and all that's 'bad,' with the supernatural Maharaji at the center. Since you can live in this belief system your whole life, and are not allowed to question it, this belief system is better known described as a cult.

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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 19:30:54 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Yes and don't forget what the REAL lesson was
Message:
Joe,

Remember how the ultimate lesson behind it all was that our individual, illusory selves (Samskara?)would always plague us with suffering until they were entirely vanquished on the altar of Guru Maharaj Ji, burnt in the flame of his divine love. So long as we were attached to this mortal coil, Knowledge was 'working' on us, an antidote to the poison of our minds and all that.

Mach 2, anyone?

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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 18:17:43 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yes and don't forget what the REAL lesson was
Message:
'Remember how the ultimate lesson behind it all was that our individual, illusory selves (Samskara?)would always plague us with suffering until they were entirely vanquished on the altar of Guru Maharaj Ji, burnt in the flame of his divine love.'

Reminds me of how, in some parts of India, widows still are encouraged/required/forced to throw themselves on the ghat (funeral pyre) of their late husband.

And where does today's premie take their self-identification from, I wonder?

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Date: Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 05:18:40 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: where does today's premie take their self-identi-
Message:
fication from?

Maybe from a large tall invisible rabbit? or more likely a little short absent hampster?

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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 16:48:51 (GMT)
From: Coach
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: 'Imaginary friends.'
Message:
Hi Jim,

A friend sent me some amusing quotes a few days ago. Among them was this one.

(On going to war over religion:) 'You're basically killing each other
to see who's got the better imaginary friend.' - Rich Jeni.

Yes, imaginary friends are very dangerooze.

Coach

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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 01:53:15 (GMT)
From: DOD
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Oh my imaginary friend, you're always there!
Message:
This is truly a sad testimonial to read. Oh yes--the testing, teaching and relentless love of our beloved Guru Maharaj Ji. How patient, how kind, how blissful, how loving, how ABSENT!

Unrequited love--ain't it grand!

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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 02:09:23 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: DOD
Subject: ROFL (nt)
Message:
rofl
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