Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Mon, Mar 27, 2000 at 23:05:19 (GMT)
From: Mar 16, 2000 To: Mar 26, 2000 Page: 2 Of: 5


JW -:- Darshan And 'Donations' -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 15:11:01 (GMT)
__ cq -:- Huh? - he donated the donations to himself???(nt) -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 20:06:26 (GMT)
__ __ JW -:- No, he said he would donate the money to the PLANE -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 20:12:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- ...and whose plane was that?!?!? (nt) -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 20:14:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ TRI -:- planes for toys.... -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 23:26:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Thanx. SEVA Corp: any link to Rawat/Wahadamar?(nt) -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 17:11:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ A True Lover -:- No, they are NOT TOYS, He uses them to do PRACHAR. -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 01:27:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- He makes videos/prachar with the glider! -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 04:28:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JW -:- DUH! It Was HIS plane, but ..... -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 20:23:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- 'BUT' ... duh! I still don't get it (nt) -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 21:06:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Maybe if I explained using hand puppets? (nt) -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 11:40:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Lamb Chop and Shari Lewis? ... oooooh goody: -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 15:20:25 (GMT)
__ Honey Honey -:- Which one occasion???? -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 15:45:54 (GMT)
__ __ JW -:- Okay, I'll Explain -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 20:20:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ Honey Honey -:- Okay, I'll Explain -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 16:19:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JW -:- Yes, Maharaj LIED -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 20:01:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ slackandsteel -:- Okay, I'll Explain -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 23:08:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Don't you understand 'the plane' is a part of mrj -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 20:49:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ TRI -:- Is Johnny of SEVA a disciple.... -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 23:48:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ JW -:- John Bale and Mary Holle -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 11:45:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JB -:- Mary Holle memories -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 16:55:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Are We Talking About the Same Mary Holle? -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 19:55:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JB -:- Are We Talking About the Same Mary Holle? -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 03:07:09 (GMT)

Harry -:- To Jethro the axe murderer -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 10:36:06 (GMT)
__ Mili -:- To Jethro the axe murderer -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 13:33:20 (GMT)
__ __ Susan -:- read away Mili, seems pretty racist to me...... -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 14:28:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jethro -:- read away Mili, seems pretty racist to me...... -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 22:00:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ Harry -:- read away Mili, seems pretty racist to me...... -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 21:57:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Susan -:- to Harry, -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 22:38:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- ps -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 22:51:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Harry -:- ps -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 05:49:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- homeschooling (ot) -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 16:25:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Harry -:- homeschooling (ot) -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 13:32:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- homeschooling (ot) -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 17:25:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Harry -:- Hi Robyn:).....nt -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 13:53:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jethro -:- OK Harry you win :) -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 22:20:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Harry -:- OK Harry you win :) -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 06:09:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Just a couple of points -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 13:42:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- To Jethro -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 18:46:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- To ROBYN -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 19:31:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- To PS TO ROBYN -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 19:45:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- To PS TO ROBYN -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 21:00:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Harry -:- Yeah, yeah, Just a couple more. -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 13:50:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- OK bye then -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 19:28:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Humble Harry -:- Dear Jethro -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 22:51:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- Harry, I think that was unfair -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 15:01:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Well done, Jethro... -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 04:20:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mili -:- read away Mili, seems pretty racist to me...... -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 17:54:29 (GMT)
__ Ps -:- Ps -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 11:47:31 (GMT)

Cornish -:- Court Cuts Cults Capers -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 06:45:26 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Court Cuts Cults Capers -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 10:15:20 (GMT)
__ __ Cornish -:- Wag the Dog -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 18:20:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- Whale tagging -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 21:30:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Cornish -:- Whale tagging -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 22:19:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Good word that, ...snarlsome (here's your link) -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 19:51:50 (GMT)

Belated Birthday Goddess -:- Happy Belated Birthday Jethro! -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 01:44:43 (GMT)
__ ham -:- Happy Belated Birthday Jethro! -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 18:55:44 (GMT)
__ __ Jethro -:- Don't confuse Robyn with Robin (nt) -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 21:51:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ ham -:- Whoops sorry Robyn, -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 23:14:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Could it be Heslop? NT -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 09:58:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ ham -:- Robin Heslop, now theres someone I'd love to see -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 22:10:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Whoops sorry Robyn, -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 23:27:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ JB -:- Hi, wondered what happened to you. (nt -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 15:58:16 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- Happy Birthday Jethro! (nt) -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 14:12:07 (GMT)
__ Jethro -:- Happy Belated Birthday Jethro! -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 08:39:11 (GMT)
__ __ Robyn -:- Happy Belated Birthday Jethro! -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 13:17:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jethro -:- Happy Belated Birthday Jethro! -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 15:43:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jethro -:- To:Robyn: Who is Jethro the axe murderer?(nt) -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 15:45:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- To:Robyn: Who is Jethro the axe murderer? -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 22:02:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- To:Robyn -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 22:27:34 (GMT)
__ Joey -:- Happy Belated Birthday Jethro! All the best! (nt) -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 07:24:11 (GMT)

Ian Dury -:- To J-M, AJW, JW, Jim and others -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 00:01:06 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Da Da Da Der, Da Da Der... -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 15:28:13 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- Great to hear from you Ian -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 15:25:57 (GMT)
__ Hal -:- To J-M, AJW, JW, Jim and others -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 06:53:21 (GMT)
__ __ Mr. Blockhead -:- Why go from one cult to another? -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 13:13:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- Why go from one cult (like Elan Vital) to another? -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 01:32:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ stupid beyond belief! -:- stupid beyond belief! -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 00:38:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Raymond -:- Are your stupidity infinite -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 09:19:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Interesting -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 15:17:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Mr Blockhead -:- Interesting cult The Forum -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 15:58:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Ian Dury -:- Interesting cult The Forum -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 16:18:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JB -:- Interesting cult The Forum -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 19:44:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ian Dury -:- Interesting cult The Forum -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 20:39:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- This 'Mr Blockhead' chose an apt moniker, non?(nt) -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 21:11:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Mr. Blochead -:- Interesting cult The Forum -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 17:37:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ian Dury -:- Interesting cult The Forum -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 17:41:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mr Blockhead -:- Interesting cult The Forum -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 19:13:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Gregg -:- All right, I'll explain it to you, Mr. Blockhead -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 19:34:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Definition of cult, read it, then explain. -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 19:23:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mr Blockhead -:- Definition of cult may vary -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 22:03:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- What Agya are you talking about!? nt -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 12:55:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Definition of cult may vary -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 01:17:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mr. Blockhead -:- Definition of cult may vary -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 07:51:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Definition of cult may vary -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 12:45:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- You're not just a blockhead, you're STUPID!! -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 00:45:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Jim I bet M's embarrassed by these dimwits! NT -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 19:15:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mr Blockhead -:- You're not STUPID, you're just a blockhead? -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 06:26:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ian Dury -:- Agya, Mr. Blockhead -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 23:15:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mr Blockhead -:- You did not answer; Ian -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 23:27:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ian Dury -:- You did not answer; Ian -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 23:45:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mr. Blockhead -:- Thanks Ian -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 23:54:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Now how could you EVER describe a premie as ... -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 21:14:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ian Dury -:- PS -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 17:43:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- This should be fun ........ (yawn) -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 16:12:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Mr Blockhead -:- What is funny -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 23:08:11 (GMT)
__ x#%*! -:- Another confused premie......... -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 02:22:02 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Another confused premie......... -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 12:06:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jethro -:- I know,,,I know.....please sir can I answer -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 15:50:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- I know,,,I know.....please sir can I answer -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 14:19:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- I know,,,I know.....please sir can I answer -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 22:51:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Because... -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 10:27:23 (GMT)
__ __ Ian Dury -:- Another confused premie......... -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 05:37:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joey -:- Another confused premie......... -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 07:21:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ Ian Dury -:- PS -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 05:50:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Who believes he's the Lord? -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 06:16:23 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Fight! Fight! -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 03:58:11 (GMT)
__ __ Joey -:- Another confused premie......... -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 03:47:44 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- You cannot doubt the truth -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 02:48:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ x#%*! -:- Sure you can Dave -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 04:33:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Faith in man not God -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 10:08:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ sb -:- Faith in man not God: So true Dave. -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 10:50:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Fat in man is God: the TRUTH on Lard's Grease -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 04:32:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Fat in man is God: the TRUTH on Lard's Grease -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 13:01:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Not only is God always fat -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 10:42:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JB -:- Not only is God always fat -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 16:24:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- They are all chubby!! LOL (nt) -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 13:03:03 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Where y'all from? -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 00:59:58 (GMT)

Dante -:- The Cure -:- Tues, Mar 21, 2000 at 20:59:41 (GMT)
__ eb -:- What I Thought You Were Going to Say (OT) -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 03:26:58 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- What I Thought You Were Going to Say (OT) -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 03:57:26 (GMT)

Love -:- Love and Soul -:- Tues, Mar 21, 2000 at 20:26:25 (GMT)
__ JB -:- Love and Soul -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 16:34:54 (GMT)
__ __ 'Zora' -:- But, was it Love dear? ;-) -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 15:20:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ JB -:- But, was it Love dear? ;-) -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 16:10:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Zora -:- mmm hmm . . . -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 18:52:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JB -:- ps - Zora -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 17:16:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Zora -:- ps - Zora -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 18:56:37 (GMT)
__ hamzen -:- Spring Out maybe, or is that 'baby come closer' -:- Tues, Mar 21, 2000 at 23:54:18 (GMT)
__ __ Zora Neale Hurston -:- Oh hamzen, what a novel spin! LOL -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 04:25:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ hamzen -:- I would visit your sites but -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 19:49:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Zora Neale Hurston -:- OOps! Here's one. -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 05:36:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Zora my dear, getting the same error message again -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 07:26:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Zora Neale Hurston -:- Sorry Hamzen, must be technical difficulties -mine -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 19:27:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- 'Zora' verrrry interesting -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 22:25:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JB -:- ps Ham and Zora -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 17:23:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ 'Zora' -:- I was worried that I remembered a thread.... -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 03:52:31 (GMT)
__ Mike -:- Ahhhh. simplicity, herself! -:- Tues, Mar 21, 2000 at 20:31:55 (GMT)
__ __ ham -:- Too naughty, yes you are Mike and gm foods! -:- Tues, Mar 21, 2000 at 23:51:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mike -:- Sure..... -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 01:24:57 (GMT)
__ __ George -:- Dream on(nt) -:- Tues, Mar 21, 2000 at 22:50:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mike -:- Your house of cards -:- Tues, Mar 21, 2000 at 23:48:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- So, by your logic? -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 02:15:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ George -:- Presumptions on the Internet -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 00:05:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Vulcan -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 02:00:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- 'Today is a good day to die.' -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 06:30:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- 'Today is a good day to die.' -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 07:15:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ SB -:- Dream on, who sounds -:- Tues, Mar 21, 2000 at 22:55:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ George -:- Who sounds dreamy? -:- Tues, Mar 21, 2000 at 23:40:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Who sounds dreamy? -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 11:00:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Sorry, George -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 04:05:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- Well said, Jerry! Very well said! -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 17:35:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Who sounds dreamy? -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 00:59:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Who sounds creamy? -:- Tues, Mar 21, 2000 at 23:56:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ George -:- Now and Zen -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 00:11:34 (GMT)


Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 15:11:01 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Darshan And 'Donations'
Message:
Someone down below in the 'darshan' thread mentioned the envelopes handed out in the drashan line (at MANY locations along that long, long, 'tunnel of love' with the ever-increasing levels of carpeting). In fact, Maharaji at times openly talked about darshan as a source of money. On one occasion I recall, it was particularly blatant.

During the 707 plane project, which was an ill-conceived creature from the beginning and cost millions upon millions of dollars, Maharaji talked about the possibility of 'donating' funds from a darshan line to get the project the cash it needed to continue during a particularly difficult financial period. The premies were pretty much bled dry by that point, and Maharaji was REALLY into getting that plane. Anyhow, you may recall that Maharaji did quite a number of programs in Miami Beach during that period, with darshan lines at each one of them. These festivals were fundraisers, both from the very steep 'entrance fee', which got to almost $100 per person, and the darshan line money, which went directly to Maharaji.

Do the math. $80 entrance charges for 15,000 people, brings in $1.2 million PER PROGRAM, not counting the money they made off the food service and, of course, darshan. And we got the Miami Beach Convention Center for FREE, because the premies dumped so much money into the local economy, which wasn't doing too well in the 70s. Plus, very few conventions wanted to be in Miami Beach in July.

The darshan lines easily brought in another quarter million dollars. Maharaji also specifically told the initiators during this period to tell the premies to give CASH and not those useless 'gifts' premies used to give as a 'dedication.' Thus, the ubiquitous envelopes.

Anyhow, during the plane project, Maharaji said he would consider donating the proceeds from ONE darshan line to the plane project if the needed money couldn't be squeezed out of the premies. I don't believe he did it, though. But there were lots and lots of Miami programs during that period, which Maharaji consciously directed to occur, mainly to raise money, and he talked freely about that.

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 20:06:26 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Huh? - he donated the donations to himself???(nt)
Message:
Huh? - he donated the donations to himself???(nt)
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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 20:12:40 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: No, he said he would donate the money to the PLANE
Message:
Rather than use the money for other aspects of his obscenely wealthy lifestyle.
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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 20:14:53 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: ...and whose plane was that?!?!? (nt)
Message:
...and whose plane was that?!?!? (nt)
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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 23:26:32 (GMT)
From: TRI
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: planes for toys....
Message:
Hi cg,

Not sure who owned the Boeing or Gulfstream but Seva Corporation owns the glider and another single engine bought in June 1999.

Glider


N-number : N103PR
Aircraft Serial Number : 3852-K-98
Aircraft Manufacturer : BURKHART GROB
Model : G 103 TWIN II
Aircraft Year : 1984
Owner Name : SEVA CORP
Owner Address : PO BOX 1437
THOUSAND OAKS, CA, 91358-0437
Registration Date : 29-Feb-1984
Airworthiness Certificate Type : Standard
Approved Operations : Glider


Manufacturer : BURKHART GROB
Model Name : G 103 TWIN II
Aircraft Type : Glider
Engine Type : No Engine
Aircraft Category : Land
Number of Seats : 2
Max. Gross Weight : 700 lbs
Aircraft Code : 1660203



Single Engine

N-number : N104PR
Aircraft Serial Number : 11-027
Aircraft Manufacturer : STEMME GMBH & CO
Model : S10-VT
Aircraft Year :
Owner Name : SEVA CORP (DELAWARE)
Owner Address : C/0 EXECUTIVE INTERNATIONAL
: PO BOX 1437
THOUSAND OAKS, CA, 91358-0437
Registration Date : 07-Jun-1999
Airworthiness Certificate Type : Not Specified


Manufacturer : STEMME GMBH & CO
Model Name : S10-VT
Aircraft Type : Fixed Wing Single Engine
Engine Type : Reciprocating
Aircraft Category : Land
Number of Engines : 1
Number of Seats : 2
Amateur Certification : Yes
Aircraft Code : 1130872

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 17:11:43 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: TRI
Subject: Thanx. SEVA Corp: any link to Rawat/Wahadamar?(nt)
Message:
Thanx. SEVA Corp: any link to Rawat/Wahadamar?(nt)
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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 01:27:37 (GMT)
From: A True Lover
Email: None
To: TRI
Subject: No, they are NOT TOYS, He uses them to do PRACHAR.
Message:
He needs the single-engine airplane just in case His $20-30,000,000 jet breaks down. And the glider? Uh, well I saw Him in a glider in a video, and it was so beautiful. When He's up in a glider, that's my breath that He is in, and it feels so good. You know, it's like the seagulls in His videos. I'm glad He has that glider.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 04:28:30 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: A True Lover
Subject: He makes videos/prachar with the glider!
Message:
I guess most premies and lots of exes have seen that one video, where he's in the glider. It's been shown at many eve,ts in the late 80s and early 90s.

Who could deny he's propagating with the videos? He's teaching how to glide in this life, you know, this is serious stuff for a person practising knowledge ....

I guess that one is a million $ video.

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 20:23:07 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: DUH! It Was HIS plane, but .....
Message:
Up to that point, he didn't use the millions he raised in darshan for the PLANE. That money was raised separately and the darshan money was his to do whatever he wanted with it. Please see my email down below called 'Okay I'll explain' if this difficult and complicated subject is still unclear to you.
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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 21:06:56 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: 'BUT' ... duh! I still don't get it (nt)
Message:
'BUT' ... duh! I still don't get it (nt)
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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 11:40:13 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Maybe if I explained using hand puppets? (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 15:20:25 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Lamb Chop and Shari Lewis? ... oooooh goody:
Message:
Lamb Chop and Shari Lewis? ... oooooh goody:

“ So, Lamb Chop, you’ve taken that penny I gave you and what have you done? You’ve donated it to your pocket. What a clever little lamb. Now donate it from your pocket to that bubblegum machine ... that’s right ... now take the gum ... unwrap it ... chew it, ... then stick it up your ass. Now squeeze ...”

Ahem, sorry about that. Getting carried away (I should be).


But let me share this little scenario that occurred to me only this morning as I was just waking up.

The darshan tunnel is long and softly carpeted. The queue stretches back for miles. At the end of it is Maharaji, standing, dressed as a busker, cap on the ground in front of him, blowing his air blues-harp at the premies as they file past, depositing their spare change into his cap.


The guy is - quite simply - a beggar, living on the invested handouts he’s weaseled out of gullible wishful-thinking seekers after enlightenment.

Remind me again, JW, who donated whose money to WHOSE plane project?

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 15:45:54 (GMT)
From: Honey Honey
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Which one occasion????
Message:
You wrote: 'On one occasion I recall, it was particularly blatant.'
I did not get it. Could you explain...
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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 20:20:33 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Honey Honey
Subject: Okay, I'll Explain
Message:
When I was community coordinator in Miami (1979-1980) it was in the middle of the 707/Deca project (also in Miami), that cost millions to convert a Boeing 707 into a luxury plane for Guru Maharaj Ji. We were CONSTANTLY fundraising among the premies to raise the cash for that project.

You may recall that Maharaji LIED to the premies and said the money was being raised for a WORLD TOUR and not a plane. Eventually, everyone knew ther real use of the money. We raised millions over a couple of years, and we even asked premies to go into debt to turn over the cash, because Maharaji wanted the plane so badly.

But, despite the fundraising and the use of premie slave (unpaid) labor, and due to extremely inept management and Maharaji's constant changing his mind and micro-managing the whole thing, the plane project was always running out of money.

So, Maharaji on one occasion (I was told this by Dennnis Marciniak, then President of DLM right after this happened), Maharaji said that he would consider turning the quarter million or so he expected to get from the premies in the next darshan line over to the plane project, instead of keeping it, as he otherwise always did, for himself to spend on whatever extravagant toy he wanted, to try to get the plane finished. But I don't believe he ever did it.

It was interesting, because he talked about darshan as simply a way to raise money, not as some kind of special, spiritual connection with the Perfect Master.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 16:19:29 (GMT)
From: Honey Honey
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Okay, I'll Explain
Message:
Sounds like some assumptions here.
Did Maharaji lie about fundraising? What did he excactly say:
Was not the plane a part of the World tour?
Do you know if he gave the money from the darshan line or not? Was registration included in the 250k? What do you really know for sure?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 20:01:13 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Honey Honey
Subject: Yes, Maharaj LIED
Message:
At the beginning of the plane project, the decision was made not to tell the premies the fundraising was for the plane. They were to be told it was for a 'world tour.' This was the official line from DLM and was a blatant lie. Maharaji was intimately involved in all the aspects of the plane and knew of, and approved, the lie. The plane was NOT part of 'the world tour.' There WAS NO world tour. The money raised from the premies, millions of dollars, was used for the plane. I know this for sure. I was there. I was in DLM honcho meetings when it was explicitly said that the 'world tour' line was to be used and that that was what Maharaji wanted. In any event, Maharaji was fully aware that the premies were being lied to and never directed that the truth be told.

I don't believe Maharaji donated the money from the darshan line to the plane, but I honestly don't know for sure.

The $250K average money raised in darshan was common knowledge among the DLM staff, of which I was a member at the time. It was also confirmed by KK, an ex-premie who handled Maharaji's finances for a number of years.

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 23:08:13 (GMT)
From: slackandsteel
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Okay, I'll Explain
Message:
What a pig!
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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 20:49:16 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Don't you understand 'the plane' is a part of mrj
Message:
so what's the problem?

We are one in the spirit
we are one in the lord .......

They are one in the spirit
they are one in the planee .......

Daya hasn't been singing that one recently?

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 23:48:27 (GMT)
From: TRI
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Is Johnny of SEVA a disciple....
Message:

He's been around quite a while:

Seva Info


CORPORATE DETAIL RECORD SCREEN
NUM: 858329 ST:DE ACTIVE/FOREIGN PROF FLD: 11/02/1983
NAME : SEVA CORPORATION (DELAWARE)
PRINCIPAL: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx PALCE
ADDRESS SUITE xxx
THOUSAND OAKS, CA 91360 US
MAILING : P.O. BOX 1437
ADDRESS THOUSAND OAKS, CA 91358 US

OFFICER/DIRECTOR DETAIL SCREEN

CORP NUMBER: 858329 CORP NAME: SEVA CORPORATION (DELAWARE)
TITLE: PD NAME: HOLxx, MARY
THOUSAND OAKS, CA
TITLE: S NAME: ADxxx, WENDY
THOUSAND OAKS, CA
TITLE: D NAME: JACxxx, ROBERT
NEW YORK, NY
TITLE: VPTD NAME: BAxx, JOHN K.
THOUSAND OAKS, CA



The Old Quantum Leasing People
OFFICER/DIRECTOR DETAIL SCREEN
CORP NUMBER: 844716 CORP NAME: QUANTUM INCORPORATED
TITLE: VP NAME: MARGUxxxxx, ALICIA I.
MIAMI, FL
TITLE: DP NAME: GLIExx, KATHxxxxxx.
MIAMI, FL
TITLE: VD NAME: POTTE xxxxxx
MIAMI, FL
TITLE: S NAME: YINGLxxx, TERESA A.
THOUSAND OAKS, CA
TITLE: T NAME: BALE, JOxx K.
THOUSAND OAKS, CA
TITLE: D NAME: JACxxx, ROBERT A.
NEW YORK, NY
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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 11:45:40 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: TRI
Subject: John Bale and Mary Holle
Message:
Both are OLD premies. I received knowledge in the same knowledge session with Mary Holle who is now apparently the head honcho of the shell corporation that owns Maharaji's Gulfstream. She is originally from Des Moines, Iowa. Nice person, really, but a true cult fanatic when it comes to Maharaji. But then I understand this, as I used to be a true cult fanatic when it came to Maharaji too. I got out of the cult; apparently Mary never did.

John Bale is also an OLD premie from the 70s.

Terry Yingling I recall was originally from Providence, Rhode Island. She used to travel with that Nazi David Smith, and was regularly abused by him. But then David abused most people, he just had more opportunity with her.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 16:55:31 (GMT)
From: JB
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Mary Holle memories
Message:
Oh my God,
Memories of Mary Holle abound.

Cult fanatic or love goddess. You pick.
(And I don't mean sex either)
I mean one touch from her or a glance across the room she made me swoon - I felt she was more powerful than any 'mahatma' or 'bai ji' that came around. And I felt they were powerful.

In fact, I was the one that was teased and seduced by Adharanand's feet into another REALM of ecstacy. (in a room filled with ten or so premies in the early 70's). The NEXT DAY - was when Maharaj JI said - NO MORE touching mahatma's feet - you remember then we'd touch our third eye.
Jesus, did I ever feel powerful myself. The seduction was slow and so sweet,but M didn't like it obviously.
But no one in the room was 'connected' directly w/ M. In fact, we were a bunch of 'rebels'.

How did M know what happened between me and Adharanand anyway???

JB

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 19:55:15 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: JB
Subject: Are We Talking About the Same Mary Holle?
Message:
I never felt Mary was anything more than ordinary, although she was nice. She had a brother, David, who was even more of a cult fanatic as Mary was. He was like an alien, or maybe he was an alien.

I lived in my first premie house with both of them. A true chamber of horrors it was! Then I lived with them both in San Antonio and later I worked with Mary at IHQ in Miami. I recall she broke her ashram vows and split from the ashram with some brother around 1980 or so. She gave into the flesh and was a fallen premie for awhile.

Lots of guys were into Mary, I think, because she seemed innocent and sweet. Plus that sweetness, as well as her cult fanaticism, took her a long way in the cult, always in a subservient position, however, as the Maharaji cult was very sexist.

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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 03:07:09 (GMT)
From: JB
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Are We Talking About the Same Mary Holle?
Message:
'Fraid so. Last x I saw David was on Long Island around 1984.
Did you happen to know their friend or friends that were killed as they hitchhiked to Texas. I'm sorry if you did.
Terrible.

Yes, Mary had a very high side to her. I suppose she had an 'everyday' side too. But I pretty much got the cosmic one. But then again I was pretty cosmic then too.
Remember as I've posted before. Jagdeo used to touch my feet and declare he couldn't have given his sat sang if it hadn't been for mine before his. He loved me. I was pretty cosmic in the old days.
Yes, Mary would 'crackle' as she passed by - a cosmic inaudible
'crackle'. Like static electricity or something.
Yes those were some fun days.
But then, back then I would dematerialize in front of my close friends.
Did I just lose all credibility. Oh well. It's the truth.
JB

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 10:36:06 (GMT)
From: Harry
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: To Jethro the axe murderer
Message:
>>>>>>>Nice to hear someone got it.......most people who leave are made to feel it is their fault. The cultness of the Steiners is much more sophisticated that M's. If fact most people don't believe it is.<<<<<<<<

Including me. What's your definition of a cult Jethro?

>>>>>Their centre in Switzerland was burnt down earlier in the century. Noone knows who did it or why.
Well I don't know WHO did it but I do know why.<<<<<<<,

OK Sherlock, why? When Steiner was alive, he kept a low profile, as he understood that some people will worship others, and he didn't want to be seen as a guru.

You asked if I had discussed my friends belief system. We have for hours, days. I can see holes in his I could drive a truck through. But then he sees holes in mine too, and who knows who's right? Probably neither. Big deal.

Did you know that 1 in 5 Aussies suffers from a mental illness? So another 2 are probably borderline. How many do you know that are well adjusted and happy? I know a few but not many. It's probably the same in the entire western world. To me this suggests that we need to start thinking outside the square. I don't want my boy to be a casualty of 21 century. Steiner education gives kids an appreciation of art, of music, of playing music, and a connection to the natural world. It hopefully produces healthy, well rounded, confident kids.

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 13:33:20 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Harry
Subject: To Jethro the axe murderer
Message:
The original Goetheanum was burnt down as a reaction to Steiner speaking out against Hitler's policy of intolerance and racial persecution.

Sort of makes you wonder about the kind of 'reasonable prejudice' some of you clowns are fostering here. Or was it 'informed prejudice'? Oh well, whatever.

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 14:28:28 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: read away Mili, seems pretty racist to me......
Message:

* Quotations marked with an asterisk are from works which were required reading for teacher trainees at Rudolf Steiner College, 1993-1994.

'The Ancestors of the Atlanteans lived in a region which has disappeared, the main part of which lay south of contemporary Asia. In theosophical writings they are called the Lemurians. After they had passed through various stages of development the greatest part of them declined. These became stunted men, whose descendants still inhabit certain parts of the earth today as so-called savage tribes. Only a small part of Lemurian humanity was capable of further development. From this part the Atlanteans were formed.
'Later, something similar again took place. The greatest part of the Atlantean population declined, and from a small portion are descended the so-called Aryans who comprise present-day civilized humanity. According to the nomenclature of the science of the spirit, the Lemurians, Atlanteans and Aryans are *root races* of mankind. If one imagines that two such root races preceded the Lemurians and that two will succeed the Aryans in the future, one obtains a total of *seven*.' (Steiner, 1904, CM p. 48)

* 'Besides their character, families, nations and races have also their destiny. ... Besides the separate individuals, a very real family and national group soul and racial spirit is at work in the life of a family, a people, or a race. Indeed, in a certain sense the separate individuals are merely the executive organs of these family group souls, racial spirits, and so on....In the truest sense, everyone receives his alotted task from his family, national or racial group soul.' (Steiner, 1904, KHW pp. 240-241)

'We are within the great Root Race of humanity, which has peopled the earth, since the land on which we now live rose up out of the inundations of the ocean. Ever since the Atlantean Race began slowly to disappear, the great Aryan Race has been the dominant one on earth. If we contemplate ourselves, we here in Europe are thus the fifth Sub-Race of the great Aryan Root Race. The first Sub-Race lived in the distant past in Ancient India. And the present-day Indians are descendants of that first Sub-Race, whose spiritual life is still extant in the ancient Indian Vedas. The Vedas are indeed only echoes of the ancient culture of the Rishis. At that time there was of course no writing yet - there was only tradition. Then came the second, third and fourth Sub-Races. The fourth Sub-Race adopted Christianity. Then, halfway through the Middle Ages, we see that the fifth Sub-Race formed itself, to which we and the neighboring nations belong.' (Steiner, Rudolf. The Temple Legend: Freemasonry and Related Occult Movements: Twenty Lectures given in Berlin between 23rd May 1904 and the 2nd January 1906. (1904-1906) Trans. John M. Wood, Edited E.M. Lloyd. London: Rudolf Steiner Press, 1985, p. 220)

'[W]hat the etheric body comprises derives from the maternal element, as handed down from generation to generation, so that every man bears in his own etheric body the legacy of the maternal element, and in his physical body, that of the paternal element. Now, by reason of consanguinity, the inheritance, perpetuating itself from etheric body to etheric body, was very potent, and from it derived the old faculty of clairvoyance. The offspring of endogamy inherited with the related blood the old capacity for wisdom in the etheric body. But as blood became more and more mixed--as a result of increasing intermarriage among tribes--the possibility of handing down the ancient wisdom diminished; ...the mixing of different bloods obscured the ancient wisdom more and more... We are, of course, still involved in this process of deterioration taking place in the human blood because, in as far as it has its origin in an ancient epoch, it will follow its lingering course to the end of *Earth* evolution.' (Steiner, 1909, GSJ p. 226)

'[A]s a consequence of the Luciferic and Ahrimanic influences, human blood became ever less fitted to provide the faculty of seeing the outer world in its true light: a steady increase in illusion was bound up with the blood's deterioration, with the dissolution of blood as it had been in the age of consanguinity, with the blood's dispersion and destruction by miscegenation. No longer could man consult the old wisdom he had once possessed as a legacy... Had it not been for the intervention of the Christ influence, he would ultimately have lost his whole heritage of ancient wisdom by being gradually reduced to complete dependence upon the outer sense world and its impressions.' (Steiner, 1909, GSJ p. 244)

'It is indeed very uncommon--note that I am saying uncommon, though it does not always have to be so--that a soul belongs to the same community on earth through a number of consecutive incarnations. Souls pass from one earthly community to another...we have one example of souls actually assuming the same nationality a number of times. That is the case with the people of Central Europe. These Central European peoples include many souls that are incarnated among them today and have also been incarnated in the Germanic tribes in the past. This is a fact we are able to trace.' (Steiner, 1915, DIN p. 57)

'The Western European peoples have become very much crystallized in their national characteristics, but in the case of the German people this cannot happen because of the peculiar nature of the German folk spirit. The result is that German attitudes will always have to remain more universal than those of other peoples. These things relate to profound realities in the spiritual world.' (Steiner, 1915, DIN p. 176)

'The German spirit...is prepared for a truth that reveals itself to be true out of itself, not requiring external verification. The German spirit is prepared for this and evidence of this may be found everywhere. The thoughts of those who were truly working within the essence of the German spirit have always taken the form of considering truth to be an inner gift of the human soul.' (Steiner, 1915, DIN p. 104)

'What has to come about for the civilization and culture of the future will only come about if the German folk spirit finds souls that transplant the Christ impulse into their astral body and ego the way it can indeed be implanted there in a state of full conscious awareness. It has to come about through harmony being established, by uniting with that which is consciously achieved in Central Europe--more and more consciously.
'This will need not just one or two centuries, but a very long time. The time needed...I would say counting from the year 1400. Adding two thousand years to 1400 we get the approximate time when something will emerge in the evolution of the earth that has had its seeds in the German life of the spirit...That is the intention of the cosmic intelligence...For the moment the East is very far indeed from achieving this. The very best of them still fall far short. Short sightedly, they still refuse to accept what Central European culture in particular is able to give.' (Steiner, 1915, DIN p. 62)

'Not only is it characteristic of Hindu thought, if not of all Asian religious perception, however, that its entire attention is directed to the time preceding the appearance of the Christ impulse, but also that the state of religious perception is preserved as it was in those days. If something remains behind in the evolutionary process it can be interpreted to have absorbed something luciferic, and for this reason Asian religious evolution is the carrier of a luciferic element. A glance at the religious development of Asia will inform us that it contains much of what mankind as a whole once possessed but was later forced to abandon. We must in part cleanse Western culture of the luciferic remnants and in part we must elevate them in such a way that the Christ impulse can enter.' (Steiner, 1915, CRLA p. 11)


'[B]ecause our etheric bodies differ in their constitution, composition, and structure in the cosmos, there would have to be seven groups of human beings. This is the fact we gradually arrive at when we investigate the relationship between our etheric body and our physical body with the methods of spiritual science. Now this difference is connected with the racial diversities on the earth. Basically, because of this difference in etheric bodies, the several races can always be reduced to the number seven.' (Steiner, 1916, UH p. 74)

'[V]arious types of human beings would have appeared one after the other. However, Lucifer and Ahriman...fought against this harmonious tendency of development in the evolution of humanity...Thus, forms that should have disappeared remained. Instead of racial diversities developing consecutively, older racial forms remained unchanged and newer ones began to evolve at the same time. Instead of the intended consecutive development of races, there was a coexistence of races. That is how it came about that physically different races inhabited the earth and are still there in our time although evolution should really have proceeded as I have described it.' (Steiner, 1916, UH pp. 74-75)

'[T]he ancient Greeks dreamed of a uniform, perfect, beautiful type of human being that should have developed. This development did not occur because Lucifer and Ahriman preserved older racial forms that had developed, so that there was a coexistence of races rather than a succession.' (Steiner, 1916, UH p. 76)

'The most characteristic sign of the time is the belief that when a group of individuals have set up some trashy proposition as a general program--such as the unity of all men regardless of race, nation or color, and so forth--something has been accomplished. Nothing has been accomplished except to throw sand into people's eyes. Something real is attained only when we note the differences and realize what world conditions are.' (Steiner, 1920, SSFSF p. 122)

'[T]he representative people for the development of the consciousness soul, hence for what matters particularly in our age, is the Anglo-Saxon nation. The Anglo-Saxon people are those who through their whole organization are predisposed to develop the consciousness soul to a special degree. The prominent position occupied by the Anglo-Saxon nation in our time is indeed due to the fact that this nation is especially suited for the development of the consciousness soul.' (Steiner, 1921, MTA p. 195)

* 'Even the savage is affected by nature, but the laws of nature reveal themselves only to the thoughts fructified by intuition of the more highly developed man.' (Steiner, 1922, T p. 31)

'You see, when we really study science and history, we must conclude that if people become increasingly strong, they will also become increasingly stupid. If the blonds and blue-eyed people die out, the human race will become increasingly dense if men do not arrive at a form of intelligence that is independent of blondness. Blond hair actually bestows intelligence. ... It is indeed true that the more the fair individuals die out the more will the instinctive wisdom of humans vanish.' (Steiner, 1922, HI-1, p. 86)

* 'No doubt about it, the soul becomes corrupted through using the French language...It is also possible at the present time that the French will even ruin their own blood, the very element which has kept their language going as a corpse. That is a terrible thing the French people are doing to other people, the frightful cultural brutality of transplanting black people to Europe. It affects France itself worst of all. This has an incredibly strong effect on the blood, the race. This will substantially add to French decadence. The French nation will be weakened as a race.' (Steiner, 1923, CT-3 pp. 87-88)

* 'The girl L.K. in class 1...is one of those cases that are occurring more and more frequently where children are born and human forms exist which actually, with regard to the highest member the ego, are not human at all but are inhabited by beings who do not belong to the human race...They are very different from human beings where spiritual matters are concerned. For instance they can never memorise sentences, only words. I do not like speaking about these things, as there is considerable opposition about this. Just imagine what people would say if they heard that we are talking about human beings who are not human beings. Nevertheless these are facts. Furthermore, there would not be such a decline of culture if there were a strong enough feeling for the fact that some people, the ones who are particularly ruthless, are not human beings at all but demons in human form.
'But do not let us broadcast this. There is enough opposition already. Things like this give people a terrible shock. People were frightfully shocked when I had to say that a quite famous university professor with a great reputation had had a very short period between death and re-birth and was a re-incarnated negro scientist.
'But don't let us publicise these things.' (Steiner, 1923, CT-4 pp. 36-37)

'[T]he European sort of invention is impossible for either the Chinese or the Japanese.' (Steiner, 1924, EEM p. 77)

In the next three items, South African Anthroposophists (Picard, Downer) apply Steiner's teachings to their situation in South Africa. From a book distributed in the U.S. as resource material for Waldorf teachers preparing a unit on Africa:

'According to Rudolf Steiner, certain regions of the earth are connected with the Historical development of the human being. One of these regions or centres, as they are better called, where cosmic influences played their part was situated in the interior of Africa. All terrestrial forces emanating from the soil, that influence man during his early childhood, were particularly active in those centres... Man's environment has the strongest impact on him during his early childhood, and this particular environment imprints the characteristics of his childhood upon him for the rest of this life... Thus the black negro race is determined by these childhood characteristics. Another centre where cosmic influences were particularly active was located in Asia but there the etheric formative forces of the earth impressed permanently upon man the characteristics of adolescence. There the brown and yellow races came into being, the brown race specifically imprinted with the characteristics of the child from the age of seven years to fourteen years; the yellow race with those of the youth from fourteen to twenty-one years. In a similar centre in Europe, the characteristics of maturity were imprinted upon the race and in America those of the older human being and even old age. Dr. Steiner calls this a UNIVERSAL LAW.
'Coming back to the black race which had its centre in the interior of Africa, the Spirits of Form--the Exousiai--and the Abnormal Spirits of Form (who as you will remember are those Higher Beings who forsook their promotion to a higher hierarchy to perform a special duty), were centred in Mercury. Hence we may call the black race the Mercury Race. Although the seeds for this race were already planted in Lemuria, its concrete formation occurred in early Atlantis. From there the race spread across Africa and 'crystallized,' as Dr. Steiner put it, into the Ethiopian race as an expression of an impulse from the Mercury Oracle or, if one prefers, the Mercury Mysteries in Atlantis. In these Mysteries, the abnormal Spirits of Form worked specifically in the glandular or lymphatic system. Everything that characterised the Ethiopian race stems from the fermentation of the Mercury forces in the glandular system of the people. Dr. Steiner taught: 'What transforms the undifferentiated universal human form into black pigmentation and wooly or frizzy hair, is the consequence of their activity.'
'Whereas Mercury dominates, so to speak, the glandular system, Venus dominates the nervous system, Mars the blood and Jupiter the senses. Hence the specific characteristics of Venus--brown race, Mars--yellow race, and Jupiter--white race...
'In lectures presented by the late Dr. Max Stibbe, who made an extensive study of race relations in South Africa, it was mentioned that the Mercury Mysteries in Atlantis soon degenerated, with the result that the Negro race was deprived of those spiritual impulses that introduced initiatives. Migrating from Atlantis, the blacks entered Africa at the mouth of the Congo river. Some of them went to North-West Africa, the rest journeying to the East and the South. The life forces of the black race are so strong that they absorb all light. The warmth of the cosmos is, so to speak, boiling inside them, hence their particular metabolism, their strong desires, instincts and emotions. Their skin is coarse (large-pored) and their limbs extraordinarily strong, in comparison with which the development of their thinking is much weaker. Their strong life forces see to it that of their soul functions, WILLING is by far the most strongly developed. Their metabolism is dominated by the liver, hence the frequent liver diseases--and other glandular disturbances--among blacks. They are rigidly imprisoned in the fire of their metabolism and their physical as well as etheric body is hardened.' (Picard, 1987, pp. 113-114)

'[Apartheid] failed badly...in spite of the fact that Apartheid is a law of nature and as such a divine law of the Bantu. It failed badly because the Apartheid philosophers like Dr. Hendrik Verwoerd approached the problem in a purely intellectual way. They did not, or possibly could not, realise how easily Apartheid leads to discrimination. The true meaning of Apartheid is NOT discrimination. Not at all, Mutwa [Zulu author Credo Mutwa] declares. The true meaning of the word is: 'to distinguish between two things without deciding which is best, while discrimination means to distinguish by deciding which is best.'...Apartheid in South Africa though practised in a more humane way than in many black African states must be condemned as a feasible constitutional possibility; not because its principle is wrong but because human nature is such that Apartheid automatically turns into discrimination--and discrimination soon leads to suppression.' (Picard, 1987, pp. 126-127)

''Aryan' is a name that comes out of occult tradition and has often been used by Rudolf Steiner. The Aryan is the spiritual European, the being who with an individualised ego, has a developing consciousness soul directed towards balancing wisdom with morality. This is taken to the point where the personality is drawn from this balance, where wisdom and morality form as it were, a chalice and there is not just wisdom for wisdom's sake! During this century an extreme form of outward racial connotation has been given to the term Aryan, particularly by Adolf Hitler who by materialising the spiritual task and nature of the Aryan attempted to create an evil counterpart to true spiritual evolution.
'The Aryan type works through the European race in general although he may incarnate within another race as a sacrificial gesture to assist in the destiny of that race. This can happen to assist the individualizing of personalities in that race so that their unique qualities are freed to contribute towards mankind's future. The immediate cultural task lies with the Aryan.' (Downer, 1987, p. 189)


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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 22:00:42 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: read away Mili, seems pretty racist to me......
Message:
Thanks for putting this info up.
Most of the parents I have known do not know the first thing about the beliefs and motivation of the people running the show(ie anthroposophy).

By the way, I swear that I have never murdered an axe in my life.

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 21:57:45 (GMT)
From: Harry
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: read away Mili, seems pretty racist to me......
Message:
That's all some one elses belief system. I have my own as do most adults I know. You're probably enjoying all this. OK, how about you tell me where you send your kids to school and give me a chance to dig up some dirt. Maybe you have discovered the untimate educational system, and I don't know anything about it. But I'de really love to know. I notice Jethro declined to tell where his daughter goes now. Kinda wimpy.
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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 22:38:08 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Harry
Subject: to Harry,
Message:
I really had no intention of insulting your choices and certainly not your intention. In fact, if you read the site from which I found this stuff it states that most Waldorf parents are unaware of these things.

I am sure you love your child very much. And if any of us find the perfect school we'll be the first. They are human institutions and flawed.

As a parent I think I get why you feel the way you do about the discussion but it really is not personal. I have two very close adult friends who went to Waldorf schools and turned out well by the way.

I just find the subject very interesting and do not mean it as an attack in the least.

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 22:51:49 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Harry
Subject: ps
Message:
My teens have always been in public school, and I am trying to decide what to do with my toddler. Sometimes I wonder about homeschooling because of how much I want to keep the world a safe place for him. Certainly my older kids have had some bad times ( and good too ) in public school, but don't we all know children deserve more?

Please accept my apology as I really am interested in the discussion not trashing anyone.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 05:49:46 (GMT)
From: Harry
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: ps
Message:
No apology necessary. I'm just so sensitive these days;) We just try to do the best by our kids I guess. I went to a Christian Brother's school, and the brutality of some of the Brothers has put me off Christian schools for life. Bullying in the schoolyards is a big issue in 'State Schools' and Christian schools.
I tell ya, most parents at our school aren't that interested in the esoteric teachings of Steiner. They are more interested in having the children nurtured by teachers who are really committed to their care. The one teacher goes through all their primary years with them. Of course, this is great providing you have a good teacher.
We know kids that are being taught at home. I think they need the interaction of other children. They seem to grow up too quickly, being surrounded all day by adults. It's a hard call.
All the best
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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 16:25:29 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Harry
Subject: homeschooling (ot)
Message:
It is funny as your point against homeschooling is the very thing that attracts me to it.

There is a family in my neighborhood of 6 children, they are devout Christians, who homeschool. These kids are INCREDIBLE. And I think the very first thing I would say about what I love about these children is the fact that they have been allowed to be pure children. They are lovely, polite, innocent, caring and very bright. When I am around them I have visions of Little House of the Prarie. They have not been forced to grow up too fast and exposed to adult concepts the way other kids I see are, including my two older kids who went to public school. The oldest children in the family both began high school recently at the public school. Both are gifted athletes and the desire to play varsity sports was a big part of the decision to start high school rather than homeschool. The kids, both of them, took every AP and Honors course available and had straight A's. They were a big shocked by the high school culture, to be sure, but it seems the strong moral foundations their parents gave them has helped them to navigate the waters. The eldest daughter was recently accepted by a very prestigous college, and is doing well.

The problem is I doubt very much whether I could duplicate the success here. I think that these kids are a product of many factors. One of them being the religous commitment this family truly lives. I am not a Christian but I have never met Christians like this family. They just live what they beleive. The kids all have an identity and an expectation that they will do well and they are a part of a group, their family. By the way, the kids are not little automatons, I have seen them whine and get into trouble on occaison, and the parents really do a good job with loving discipline. In fact, if they had appeared absolutley perfect, I would have been suspicious. They are just six normal wonderful children.

My son would be homeschooled alone and I think he could well have just the problems you see in the kids you know. Too much isolation, too much imput from just mom. But I would very much like to see him be like these kids, happy, ethical, innocent, loving and caring, with a very strong sense of right and wrong and that he is important for him to make a contribution in this life. My older kids I are wonderful people, but they were forced to be too grown up too fast for many reasons, that is something I very much want to avoid.

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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 13:32:00 (GMT)
From: Harry
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: homeschooling (ot)
Message:
Hi, one of the reasons I love Steiner schooling is that they don't push them when very young, but encourage their imagination. They are just now learning some letters, and the other day it was K. So K became 'King' and the teacher told them stories of Kings and Queens. Zac is really excited and writting 'King' all over the place. If I could, I'd sit at the back of the class and get a real education this time;)
I think kids need to be around kids, and this makes home schooling one child difficult. Kids just want to have fun, and lets face it, us adults are pretty boring. Good luck with whatever choice you make.
Cya
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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 17:25:00 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: homeschooling (ot)
Message:
Dear Susan,
I have many friends who home school and first off a lot has to do with the child wether it is a good fit for them. I see 1 of 3 kids in one family that really needed more socialization although he did well in other areas, imho but the other 2 excelled in all areas. One of the things that really helps this work for all these families is that they do field trips together or special classes that one adult is especially good at so there is a connection to a larger group for the kids. Also most of these families are within a large group of friends, very supportive. Old hippies, we have a pie festival every year for the summer solstice. Great group. One of the families has 6 girls and the father is a Mennonite minister with that old hippie look and their children are precious, younger then your friend's kids but sounds very similar.
Maybe you could join this family for outing to break that all mom all the time feeling. :) Good luck and I'd love to hear how it works out for you.
I think Harry's son sounds like he's found his good fit and is quite the delightful, magical and sometimes mischievous, happy boy. :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 13:53:46 (GMT)
From: Harry
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Hi Robyn:).....nt
Message:
sdgg
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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 22:20:57 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Harry
Subject: OK Harry you win :)
Message:
My daughter went to the dreaded ordinary state school. She is now 12 and is in 'an ordinary state' school.

She has full appreciation of art,science, music and is doing really well. She plays the piano, guitar and clarinet. She is a good mathematician, essay writer, and also does acting. (She also likes Latin!!!) and she is gorgeous.So you see I get plenty of nachas from her.(If you don't know what nachas is ask someone who is Jewish or Helen).

You don't have to dig up dirt on the British education system as I've already done that. I was a lecturer for 10 years in futher and higher education. I got sacked for expressing the opinion to the Times newspaper that the standards in British colleges have gone down over years.

If you want to checkup on me search out the Times archives and look at the front page from Feruary 17th 1997.

I was also really angry with myself when I realised what a load of sleaze-heads the Steiner people were......but I have forgiven myself.

Oh yes, I have also had my say on British radio giving the Steinerites plenty of opportunity to sue me for slander(or is it libel)....guess what they did.... nothing.

Oh yes and one more thing, the Steinrites(UK) wrote into their rules that they don't use coproral punishment. This was written in on February 14th 1992, which was just after the incident with my daughter was made public. You can check with their documentation no doubt.

Take care Harry, I'm sure your child will be fine....regards Jethro


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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 06:09:06 (GMT)
From: Harry
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: OK Harry you win :)
Message:
The next argument I win around here will be the first Jethro.
I'm glad you're happy with your daughter's school and that she is too. I know kids in the state system that are bored shitless with school and they're only 8 or 9 years old. Then I know others that love it. It's a case of finding the school that suits your children's needs I guess (and yours). Here's a great poem on children by Kahil Gibran. It's helped me when I realised I was trying to influence Zac in a direction he didn't necessarily want to go in. For instance, he's obsessed with money right now, and I found myself trying to change his attitude, instead of supporting him in his capitalistic endeavours:)

On Children
And a woman who held a babe against her bosom said, 'Speak to us of Children.'

And he said:

Your children are not your children.

They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.

They come through you but not from you,

And though they are with you, yet they belong not to you.

You may give them your love but not your thoughts.

For they have their own thoughts.

You may house their bodies but not their souls,

For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.

You may strive to be like them, but seek not to make them like you.

For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.

You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth.

The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite, and He bends you with His might that His arrows may go swift and far.

Let your bending in the archer's hand be for gladness;

For even as he loves the arrow that flies, so He loves also the bow that is stable.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 13:42:00 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Harry
Subject: Just a couple of points
Message:
In answer to an earlier point, most of the people I know are well-balanced and happy.

The phrase used by Steiner teachers for kids who lave or don't make it at the Steiner schools is something like 'this isn't suitable for them'. They said that about my daughter when they denied her expulsion. My daughter actually loved going t o that kindergarden, she got with everybody and a week beforethis I was told she was the 'perfect Steiner child'. They often use the child as an excuse because they don't like the parents. Unfortunately most parents go away with their tails between there legs.
I have no idea about your child's schools, it may as you be really good.

I am only reporting to you my own experience and I have found out that the same patterns have emerged from Steiner schools all over the world.

It seems that they believe thatthe sins of the fathers shall be visited on the children.

Ihave absolutely no respect for them especaiilly because i spoke with many of the 'high-ups' but they refused to act. In fact they protected Robert Ogilvie and Pat Hague.

Evil flourishes where good people do nothing.

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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 18:46:17 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: To Jethro
Message:
Dear Jethro,
I came here to say Happy Birthday and got caught up in this discussion. I was wondering if you could direct me to the thread and post(s) where you explain what happened to your daughter. Thanks.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 19:31:44 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: To ROBYN
Message:
In a nutshell Clare was expelled from a Steiner kidergarden because Clare's mother and myself compalined about the use of corporal punishment in the school.
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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 19:45:44 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: To PS TO ROBYN
Message:
If oyu want to read th complete thread it is in the Inactive index under the name 'Happy St Patty;s day'.
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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 21:00:09 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: To PS TO ROBYN
Message:
Dear Jethro,
Thanks, I will read it but I have a story to relate on corpral punishiment. My oldest daughter was in 4th grade public school after being in a private Quaker school for 5 yrs, pre-school, Kindergarten, 1st and 2nd grade.
Jessica was punished by having to touch her nose to the brick wall outside while the other kids played. I forget exactly what happened but it was nothing big. I also forget how I knew, but I did, that if the parent wrote a note that no corpral punishment was allowed to be used on my child then they couldn't do it. I did write the note and explained that a repremained would have sufficed and no humiliating or physical punishment was to be used. I also said if I was informed we would talk about it at home also. Well the teacher repeatedly would say to the class that, when she or someone else was in trouble, that she was different and was not subject to the same rules everyone else was. He really made it hard on her. As far as me, I reacted like a mother lion at first, thinking I was protecting my child but when it back fired I just felt like I'd failed Jess. It was a terrible experience for both of us. I wanted to talk to the teacher and/or the principle but she begged me not to make things worst yet.
Another general thought I've had about this topic is that I wonder if, no matter what the Stiner(sp) thing is doesn't it really come down to the people who run and teach in the school? If they are gentle and kind and really care about kids it seems it would be a good experience for the children and their parents. If the focus is on the children then the teachers, administrators and the parents have a common consern and goal. Just my 2 cents.
BTW, Jessica turned out great, now 23 regardless of that controlling ass of a teacher or her wimp of a mom! :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 13:50:53 (GMT)
From: Harry
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Yeah, yeah, Just a couple more.
Message:
>>>>>In answer to an earlier point, most of the people I know are well-balanced and happy.<<<<<<,

Well you're a lucky man Jethro. Most of the people I know are just doin' what it takes to get through the day, but I know a few balanced happy ones too.

I think I'll pass, on your kind invitation to turn my name to mud, by taking you to a Parent-Teacher meeting here. I don't need any help in that direction.

It would seem that the school expelled you, not your daughter. You're probably a nice guy, but you do seem the provocateur. I don't like to see people censored, but some parents can be a pain in the arse. My own brother heads a group of parents trying to get the principal of his school fired. It's a minority group, but the principal has had to take time off because of stress. I love my brother, but he is an argumentative pain and I'm glad his kids don't go to our school. If they did, he'd be in the middle of a conflict before you could swing a cat, and trying to get me involved.
Anyway

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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 19:28:37 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Harry
Subject: OK bye then
Message:
You are the perfect 'Steiner parent'.
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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 22:51:06 (GMT)
From: Humble Harry
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Dear Jethro
Message:
Dear Jethro, I love you deeply and just wish we didn't argue so;) Is it the word 'provocateur' that you don't like? I think your first or second message in this conversation was titled something like 'steiner's are the lowest of the low'. That's a very provocative, absolutist statement. Especially considering they're community schools and each is independent of the others. You do paint the picture.
I think you did the right thing by making a stand against violence against children, and I would have taken my boy out of any school that hits kids. Where I have a problem is you assertion that all Steiner schools suck, because of your negative experience. The world just ain't black and white like that.
I'll tell you a little story about what is happening in our classroom right now. The first time we, as a group of parents, got to meet the new teacher, most of us were very impressed with her. This is her first teaching job and as such, she needs the support of the parents. There were a couple of parents who started to bully her right in that first meeting. You know, statements like 'I hope you are going to teach in this way or that way' and I hope you are going to do 'this or that'. Right then I thought these women where going to be a pain. Now, just about every morning before class starts, they bail up 'Liz and start complaining about this or about that. They don't take the time to think that they are probably stressing her out and she has to deal with a class of kids or that she should be getting the class together. Maybe they should just leave and go were they would be happier. Is there anything wrong with saying that? The thing is though, they know that this school is as good as it gets. So Jethro, what do you do with people who are obviously dissatisfied with the education their kids are getting? You can't please everyone. Some want no disipline, some want more. I personally trust the teachers judgement, but that is because I trust the teacher and the school to do the right thing by the children.
Love you
Harry
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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 15:01:50 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Harry
Subject: Harry, I think that was unfair
Message:
If my child went through the sort of experience Jethro's daughter did I would take out my Mama Bear persona too. We are supposed to protect our kids.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 04:20:43 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Well done, Jethro...
Message:
Your daughter sounds like a fabulous young woman. Ya dun good mon.
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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 17:54:29 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Susan
Subject: read away Mili, seems pretty racist to me......
Message:
Boy, that's some weird stuff, for sure! Imagine how bigoted the Nazis were if they considered this 'reactionary'. Thanks.
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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 11:47:31 (GMT)
From: Ps
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Ps
Message:
Where did you eventually send your little girl?
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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 06:45:26 (GMT)
From: Cornish
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Court Cuts Cults Capers
Message:
In Austrailia??
A commune called Centerpoint was disbanded by the courts. The judge ruled that the members got compo because their involvement with the cult made them unfit emotionally for regular jobs.
Leader was into children and there were tax fiddles/brainwashing and lives ruined..
This ruling happened today.

No more info - might be on news channels

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 10:15:20 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Cornish
Subject: Court Cuts Cults Capers
Message:
Child abuse, brainwashing, tax fiddles?

Sounds familiar.

Maybe someone should point the investigators at another cult that's set up home in Oz.

Anth the Party Pooper

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 18:20:59 (GMT)
From: Cornish
Email: mome
To: AJW
Subject: Wag the Dog
Message:
It would be interesting to get a copy of the courts decision. The case has been going on for a long time. Many ex cult members gave depositions including grown children of the devotees.

I would bet that Marmiteji has some parallel matters. But this forum is not proactive on an official front. From what I gather exs support each other here, do battle with premies, have day jobs and drink.

By contrast, this other cult had a few ex members that organized themselves, got a case together and accessed the older cult members to testify. The outcome was that the guy ate it.

exs on this forum cant accomplish that because it is a big job and contrary to 'the purpose of the forum'. The archives show that any talk of this kind is quickly muffled or tossed into the frenzy of confused agendas.

Woof?

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 21:30:25 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Cornish
Subject: Whale tagging
Message:
'exs on this forum ca'nt accomplish that (getting the case together) because it is a big job and contrary to 'the purpose of the forum'. The archives show that any talk of this kind is quickly muffled or tossed into the frenzy of confused agendas.'

Why 'contrary' to the purpose of the forum, Cornish?

BTW, that's one hell of a gauntlet to lay down, (do I hear the horns a-blowin'?)

Perhaps part of the problem is that everyone else expects everyone else to be getting it (the case) together.

I posted a couple of months ago a letter to the UK Charity Commission that resulted in only one offer of an ex coming forward with their evidence of how Elan Vital is a con that exists primarily to feather the Maha's nest.

(BTW, I've decided not to act as chaperone or go-between for any other ex - the impact would be far stronger if we make our own representations to the relevant authorities).

So - how about each ex writes their own letter - then compares results on the forum here? Would that be a better way to get things moving?

Chris

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 22:19:42 (GMT)
From: Cornish
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Whale tagging
Message:
Sorry
I missed that from you. It has been brought up many times in the past. You are right, we expect someone else to do it.
However, it is hard when the posters on the forum that do have the professional skills to help see something through, say that they will not get involved for whatever reason. Makes me feel like the idea is unsupported.

If you would re post some way for me to take a step on my own, I would do it.

PS I feel snarlsome about this subject. And it is not me that thinks 'it is contrary to the prupose of the forum'. If we talk about this at any length, you'll see someone step in with a voice of experience and authority saying all the right words as to why the forum cannot/should not be a vehicle for a move to bring M to justcie.
Money, time, committment, organization, support for exs as purpose ect ect.

I believe it usually ends up that the Media is the best place to expose him and there have been some good campains.

you are right here, I just get frustrated

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 19:51:50 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Cornish
Subject: Good word that, ...snarlsome (here's your link)
Message:
Thanks for responding, Cornish,

Here's a link to an archive post I made last January which has an address (UK) that you can contact.http://www.ex-premie.org/archives/archive.cgi?arch=20000119b (thread called 'Help wanted')

This Centrepoint case - can you tell us any more about it? - I've not found any reference to it in the news.


PS - you call the Maha 'Marmiteji'? In the UK there was an ad campaign that went - 'Marmite - my mate'. You didnt' know?

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 01:44:43 (GMT)
From: Belated Birthday Goddess
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Happy Belated Birthday Jethro!
Message:
Dear Jethro,
As you may know I've been the slacking B-day Goddess for sometime but while making a new birthday entry in my special b-day calendar I see I have also missed your birthday but since it is just over a week and I see you posted today I thought I'd send along my wish that it was a great day!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 18:55:44 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Belated Birthday Goddess
Subject: Happy Belated Birthday Jethro!
Message:
Second that Robin, I'm a bit biased but definitely a special person, and by far the best friend I've known ever, but then you already know that Jed, sorry for any embarrassment
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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 21:51:05 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Don't confuse Robyn with Robin (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 23:14:43 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Whoops sorry Robyn,
Message:
especially bearing in mind that other Robin, and associated posts!
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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 09:58:58 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Could it be Heslop? NT
Message:
NT
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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 22:10:25 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Robin Heslop, now theres someone I'd love to see
Message:
again, especially if he's moved on.

Where are you you acid spiker you?

Hey Jed he'd be up for a trance night, I bet!

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 23:27:16 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Whoops sorry Robyn,
Message:
Dear ham,
No worry ham. I have been out of the loop, just flew in for a bit and to wish Jethro a belated. I see there is a Robin Hood below and am glad I don't use the 'i' so, I thought wouldn't be confused with RH but I guess lots of people don't really notice the spelling. Maybe he should use Fiar Tuck instead. :)
Spring is starting and I feel like I am coming back to life after this long cold winter! Lots going on away from the computer. :)
Love,
Rob'y'n
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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 15:58:16 (GMT)
From: JB
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Hi, wondered what happened to you. (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 14:12:07 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: jethro
Subject: Happy Birthday Jethro! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 08:39:11 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Belated Birthday Goddess
Subject: Happy Belated Birthday Jethro!
Message:
Many thanks........but how did you find out.

Love from The Ides of March

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 13:17:39 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Happy Belated Birthday Jethro!
Message:
Dear Jethro,
Must be you told me, just knowing these things isn't a part of the job. :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 15:43:37 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Happy Belated Birthday Jethro!
Message:
'Must be you told me,,'

Could be! but I do have something akin to Attention Deficite Syndrome(ADD). That's my excuse when I forget things.

Take care jethro

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 15:45:40 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: To:Robyn: Who is Jethro the axe murderer?(nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 22:02:46 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: To:Robyn: Who is Jethro the axe murderer?
Message:
Dear Jethro,
I am confused, why do you ask ME who Jethro the axe murderer is? It is in a thread I have nothing to do with, didn't write in it at all. I thought it was something a person would know if they read where ever it was that the discussion was before as it is obvious it is continuing from some other time and/or place.
If you are asking me as a 'goddess', I don't do reading minds. :) I briefly looked at a Stiener site some time ago but not having little children anymore I didn't get into to much depth but it sounds like a good education from what Harry has told me about his son's experience there and that is the bottom line I guess. My girls went to a very small private Quaker school run by the parents years ago and it was great. It gave me a generally positive feeling about alternative education but then I am pretty alternative myself. :)
I am curious if you knew Ham before you each came to the forum? I read his b-day message to you and thought it was really nice.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 22:27:34 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: To:Robyn
Message:
The bit about the axe-murderer was joke..never mind :>)

Yes I have known ham since 1974 when we became good friends.

Love Jethro

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 07:24:11 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Belated Birthday Goddess
Subject: Happy Belated Birthday Jethro! All the best! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 00:01:06 (GMT)
From: Ian Dury
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: To J-M, AJW, JW, Jim and others
Message:
Thanks.
Thanks for your support, perspective and courage.
You have all helped me a great deal. Twenty-plus years of programming is a lot to overcome, and you folks have made it a great deal easier to accept and move on from the fact that I have been in a cult, and Rawat is a fraud.
Background: ashram, community coordinator, EV staff, etc. (Is that enough info for EV security to nail down my identity?)
Never was rich enough to be around Rawat, though.
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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 15:28:13 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: anthginn@yahoo.com
To: Ian Dury
Subject: Da Da Da Der, Da Da Der...
Message:
Hi Ian,

Every time I read a post like yours, the theme tune to 'The Great Escape' starts playing in my mind. Another one out the tunnel into the woods.

The great thing is, the guards never come after you. They're scared of us, and they're not allowed out anyway.

Welcome back to the human race, where you can think for yourself and all folk are equal.

Have you read the 'Journies' at Ex-Premie.org, and had a look around Roger eDrek and Jean-Michel's website?

Boy, does it feel good to be out of the cult. But in truth, the feeling can't be put into words. It's an 'experience' that you have to have for yourself, if you get my drift.

Email me if you want to chat about anything out of the public eye. I got out about 20 months ago, after a 25 year stretch.

Anth of the Escape Committee.

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 15:25:57 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Ian Dury
Subject: Great to hear from you Ian
Message:
I look forward to reading your posts.
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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 06:53:21 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Ian Dury
Subject: To J-M, AJW, JW, Jim and others
Message:
Hi Ian,
Are you leaving the blockheads? Well done and welcome back to being your own being again.

It's been a couple of months since I accepted that what my nose told me didn't smell right was indeed a load of crap. I feel a great relief in leaving that lot although I did go through some confusion and emotional upset.

All the best and congratulations! There's plenty of support here when you need it.

Hal

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 13:13:00 (GMT)
From: Mr. Blockhead
Email: None
To: Hal + Ian
Subject: Why go from one cult to another?
Message:
Addicted to brainwashing?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 01:32:28 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Mr. Blockhead
Subject: Why go from one cult (like Elan Vital) to another?
Message:
You really should think about what you're writing.

Was that a Freudian slip?

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 00:38:51 (GMT)
From: stupid beyond belief!
Email: stupid beyond belief!
To: stupid beyond belief!
Subject: stupid beyond belief!
Message:
stupid beyond belief!
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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 09:19:40 (GMT)
From: Raymond
Email: None
To: stupid beyond belief!
Subject: Are your stupidity infinite
Message:
seems like you write to yourself
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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 15:17:59 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Mr. Blockhead
Subject: Interesting
Message:
Hi Blockhead,

It's interesting how premies see the rest of the human race as a cult.

If Ian had joined the Moonies, what you say would make sense.

However, the only people who post here who are cult members are Premies.

Anth the Ex

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 15:58:29 (GMT)
From: Mr Blockhead
Email: None
To: Anth the cult member
Subject: Interesting cult The Forum
Message:
I studied cults and can recognise one.

Open your eyes.

No cultmember ever believes he is in a cult.

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 16:18:33 (GMT)
From: Ian Dury
Email: None
To: Mr Blockhead
Subject: Interesting cult The Forum
Message:
Mr. Blockhead, you wrote
'I studied cults and can recognise one.
Open your eyes.
No cult member ever believes he is in a cult.'
----------------------------------------------------------------

Hey pal,
Can you recognize the one YOU are in?
Oh yeah; not if you believe your own words; 'no cult member ever believes he is in a cult'.
Rawat must be SO embarassed by you idiots.

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 19:44:40 (GMT)
From: JB
Email: None
To: Ian Dury
Subject: Interesting cult The Forum
Message:
It's easier to check the box marked 'Quote this message in reply'

Thought you were new and didn't see it. Took me awhile.

JB

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 20:39:58 (GMT)
From: Ian Dury
Email: None
To: JB
Subject: Interesting cult The Forum
Message:
JB,
Thank you very much!
Ian
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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 21:11:08 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Ian Dury
Subject: This 'Mr Blockhead' chose an apt moniker, non?(nt)
Message:
This 'Mr Blockhead' chose an apt moniker, non?(nt)
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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 17:37:36 (GMT)
From: Mr. Blochead
Email: None
To: Ian Dury
Subject: Interesting cult The Forum
Message:
Who talked about a cult. I am just curious.
Please explain why you don't consider this a cult.
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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 17:41:47 (GMT)
From: Ian Dury
Email: None
To: Mr. Blochead
Subject: Interesting cult The Forum
Message:
'Who talked about a cult?' you ask?
YOU DID!
Quote 'why go from one cult to another?'
I repeat, Rawat must be SO embarassed by you idiots!
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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 19:13:58 (GMT)
From: Mr Blockhead
Email: None
To: Ian Dury
Subject: Interesting cult The Forum
Message:
You started this topic writing: 'and you folks have made it a great deal easier to accept and move on from the fact that I have been in a cult,'
Please explain why you don't consider this to be a cult and what agya? are you talking about.
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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 19:34:00 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Mr Blockhead
Subject: All right, I'll explain it to you, Mr. Blockhead
Message:
Most of us 'here' (in cyberspace, on the Forum) are ex-premies. Some are Christians, some are atheists, some are agnostics, some meditate, others don't, some even still believe in gurus (just not 'Guru' Maharaj Ji.)

We share no common beliefs, except that involvement in EV is probably not a very good idea. Some look back in anger, some with regret...and some even look back fondly upon the years they spent in the cult.

Do we sound like a cult to you?

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 19:23:29 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Mr Blockhead
Subject: Definition of cult, read it, then explain.
Message:
From entry cult from www.dictionary.com:

cult n.

1. a. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.

b.The followers of such a religion or sect.

2.A system or community of religious worship and ritual.

3.The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious ceremony and ritual.

4.A usually nonscientific method or regimen claimed by its originator to have exclusive or exceptional power in curing a particular disease.

5. a. Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing.

b.The object of such devotion.

6. An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually artistic or intellectual interest.

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 22:03:27 (GMT)
From: Mr Blockhead
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Definition of cult may vary
Message:
I did not talk about other cults. I talked about this one.
Here are 2 definitions of cults written by modern researchers:

Kevin Crawley on definiton of a cult;
”Of course, the problem with the word 'cult' is that it means different things to different folks. I'd like to put forward a behavioral definition: An organization that uses intensive indoctrination techniques to recruit and maintain members into a totalist ideology.”

The totalist ideology here seems to be a certain belief concerning Elan Vital, their members and leader.

Jan Groenveld; on identifying a Cult :
'From a warm, loving personality will come heaped abuse, rejection and feelings of hate. The cult member sees himself as 'righteous' in comparison and this comes across in their attitude toward all outsiders.'

The ex-premies seem to think of themselves different to everyone else and regard oponents as outsiders.

Definition of a cult may vary in different dictionaries. A cult does not need to be religious nor to have a leader. People who think that Elvis is still alive, is regarded as a cult.

Nobody answered my question about what agya??

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 12:55:17 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Mr Blockhead
Subject: What Agya are you talking about!? nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 01:17:27 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Mr Blockhead
Subject: Definition of cult may vary
Message:
”An organization that uses intensive indoctrination techniques to recruit and maintain members into a totalist ideology.”

The totalist ideology here seems to be a certain belief concerning Elan Vital, their members and leader.

First of all, there is no organization here, far from it. Where are the intensive indoctrination techniques? 'A certain belief concerning...' hardly constitutes a totalist ideology. Totalist ideology implies a set of ideas or beliefs, any deviation from which is not permitted, that form the basis of a political, economic, or other (such as religious) system. At the Forum, which is not a system, there are a wide variety of beliefs expressed regarding EV, its members, and 'leader' (i.e. Maharaji). Maharaji at his web site stated that he is not a leader, it's interesting that you call him EV's leader. Premies beliefs are allowed to be posted without editing here, unlike at www.enjoyinglife.org. The beliefs expressed at the Forum by 'ex-premies' regarding EV et al vary considerably. Also, the subject matter is too limited to be considered an ideology. Do you consider Elan Vital to be the one and only true religion, therefore 'anti-EV' beliefs, beliefs not tolerated by EV et al regarding the same, constitute an 'anti-religion' ideology? Us and them? Actually, the beliefs expressed here about real life vary a great deal.

'From a warm, loving personality will come heaped abuse, rejection and feelings of hate. The cult member sees himself as 'righteous' in comparison and this comes across in their attitude toward all outsiders.'

The ex-premies seem to think of themselves different to everyone else and regard oponents as outsiders.

I've seen posts here by several premies that I would not call 'a warm, loving personality', for example x#%*!. Since when are premies 'all outsiders' or 'everyone else'? The vast majority of people are not premies. And 'outsiders' implies there is a group to be outside of, what group? I don't consider myself a member of a group. Also, I don't consider premies as enemies, not even the very few that post here.

People who think that Elvis is still alive, is regarded as a cult.

No, they are just people with a false belief. And are you equating 'Elvis is alive' with 'Maharaji claimed to be God but isn't, and gets lots of money from people who think he's at least more than human, if not God Himself in human form.'?

In terms of agya, which you accept as a meaningful word, all I remember is that he talked about the internet as being full of ________ as a warning to premies. What you do think he had in mind? I believe he suggested at the time not to get on the internet. Of course, he reversed his stance after starting web sites of his own.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 07:51:01 (GMT)
From: Mr. Blockhead
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Definition of cult may vary
Message:
I never told I am a premie. I am regarded as an outsider. What I posted made you regard me as an outsider since it appeared I made oponents to the common belief of your cult. Your belief seems to be rather coherent to the rest of the 'ex-premies' The belief is as you say: premies have a false belief. Your belief is also that their leader is a false person.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 12:45:29 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Mr. Blockhead
Subject: Definition of cult may vary
Message:
What is this belief that premies have that is regarded as false? If you think that premies do not have any false beliefs, then the chances are extremely high that you are a premie or an aspirant. Mind telling me?

There was a time when people said the earth is flat. Some people said 'No, the earth is not flat.' Were they in a cult?

Prem Rawat is a person. People aren't false, they may make false statements, but that doesn't make them false. It is a fact that Prem Rawat has made false statements. Most people do.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 00:45:53 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mr Blockhead
Subject: You're not just a blockhead, you're STUPID!!
Message:
The ex-premies seem to think of themselves different to everyone else and regard oponents as outsiders.

You must be the stupidest idiot I've dealt with all day. Honestly. This is so absurd it's just plain crazy. The only thing 'different' about ex-premies vis-a-vis 'everyone else' is that we're ex-premies! And the only 'opponents' we have are the few thousand remaining members of your dwindling cult. God, you're stupid!

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 19:15:58 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim I bet M's embarrassed by these dimwits! NT
Message:
v
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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 06:26:52 (GMT)
From: Mr Blockhead
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You're not STUPID, you're just a blockhead?
Message:
Elvis 'cult members' oponents are those who express Elvis is dead.
Persons questioning your belief are really stupid, right?
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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 23:15:12 (GMT)
From: Ian Dury
Email: None
To: Mr Blockhead
Subject: Agya, Mr. Blockhead
Message:
If you REALLY want to know what Rawat's agya is, why don't you ask one of the 22 new instructors how Rawat feels about his devotees posting on the ex-premie forum?
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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 23:27:10 (GMT)
From: Mr Blockhead
Email: None
To: Ian Dury
Subject: You did not answer; Ian
Message:
why do you turn from one cult to another
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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 23:45:39 (GMT)
From: Ian Dury
Email: None
To: Mr Blockhead
Subject: You did not answer; Ian
Message:
I don't believe that I have joined another cult.
What do you care anyway?
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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 23:54:58 (GMT)
From: Mr. Blockhead
Email: None
To: Ian Dury
Subject: Thanks Ian
Message:
Just curiousity.
What do you think of the definitions I quoted.
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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 21:14:47 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Now how could you EVER describe a premie as ...
Message:
Now how could you EVER describe a premie as ...

...'having an obsessive devotion to or veneration for a person ...'



p.s. What's the emoticon for sarcasm?

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 17:43:10 (GMT)
From: Ian Dury
Email: None
To: Mr. Blockhead
Subject: PS
Message:
Please explain why you are DISOBEYING THE LORD'S AGYA by posting here?
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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 16:12:10 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mr Blockhead
Subject: This should be fun ........ (yawn)
Message:
Well, first, blockhead, you have to admit that nobody admits they're in cults. Not cult-members or non-cult-members. So the fact that ex-premies -- like premies, don't forget -- don't make that 'admission' says nothing. Agreed?

Now what was it you were saying? This is a cult? How's it work? Hm? Care to tell us? How do people get sucked into this one? See, what it looks like to me (and anyone here will tell you that I'm more than willing to be proven wrong if you've got a good argument, just like pretty well everyone here) is that we left a cult and are enjoying talking about it, slagging it, that kind of thing. We don't know each other otherwise and have nothing else in common. What was your point?

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 23:08:11 (GMT)
From: Mr Blockhead
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What is funny
Message:
I suppose everything is a matter of opinion.
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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 02:22:02 (GMT)
From: x#%*!
Email: None
To: Ian Dury
Subject: Another confused premie.........
Message:
.....succumbs to his doubts. Sad. It doesn't take courage to doubt Ian.
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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 12:06:28 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: x#%*!
Subject: Another confused premie.........
Message:
Hey, you big brave anonymous premie,

What's the difference between a 'Premie' and a 'Moonie'?
(A Euro to a Cent I don't get a straight answer here.)

Anth the Inquisitor

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 15:50:04 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: I know,,,I know.....please sir can I answer
Message:
A Moonie will tell you what they believe whereas a premie won't and in nmost can't because they don't know.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 14:19:49 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: I know,,,I know.....please sir can I answer
Message:
Hi Jeth,

How's things? Happy belated birthday by the way.

We're having a Latvian night in Paris tonight.

Take care

Le Anth

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 22:51:21 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: I know,,,I know.....please sir can I answer
Message:
And why wasn't I invited to Paris?

Another exclusive club like the recent-exs forum?
Hmmmmmm

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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 10:27:23 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Because...
Message:
...we think you're a premie plant, trying to infiltrate our secret cult with the intention of revealing our techniques on the internet.

We'll invite you next time, honest.

It was a great night, ending in the usual intoxicated mayhem.

Anth the red, red, wine, goes to my head oh yeah.

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 05:37:20 (GMT)
From: Ian Dury
Email: None
To: x#%*!
Subject: Another confused premie.........
Message:
It MUST take courage to be a premie, though, because everyone around Rawat is scared shitless of him, including his closest advisors. Before you tell me how deluded I am, I've seen it firsthand. Have you?
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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 07:21:06 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Ian Dury
Subject: Another confused premie.........
Message:
I WON'T say that you're deluded Ian. Moreover I'm looking forward to hearing more of your story.

But you ARE being sarcastic when you say that it must take alot of courage to be a premie? Aren't you??
I mean... does it take courage OR is it denial that's essentially required to be a premie?
Rhetorical question of course. You don't have to even bother answering it :)

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 05:50:04 (GMT)
From: Ian Dury
Email: None
To: x#%*!
Subject: PS
Message:
Oh yeah, the reason that they are afraid of him is because they believe HE IS THE LORD!
And the reason they believe he is the Lord is because HE TOLD THEM HE WAS!
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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 06:16:23 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Ian Dury
Subject: Who believes he's the Lord?
Message:
Those gullible enough ...... These guys have a problem.

Anyone telling me he's the Lord would make me laugh or pity him now.

You know what ? In some countries like Israel, they send you immediately in mental hospital if you say something like this. And if you're a foreigner, then they send you out of the country. And no return allowed. I guess that's why he never went back there !

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 03:58:11 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: x#%*!
Subject: Fight! Fight!
Message:
No, whoever-the-fuck-you-are, it doesn't take courage to doubt. But it does take courage to deal with your doubts fairly and not just brush them under the rug because you're in a 'no doubt zone' (i.e. cult).

Honestly, do you think Ian'd be better off saying shit like:

The crowned and conquering child

One without a second
A king without a throne
He's the keeper of the flame
There can be no exaggeration
In the describing of his fame.
The centre in times of chaos
The grail comes from his hand
He embodies no tradition
Nor bows to anyman.
He is the giver of Knowledge
The kind that sets us free
But his words are rarely written
His touch the magic key.
Awesome like thunder
Gentle as a warm breeze
Essential as air
Revealing as the sun.
He is completely impartial,
He is here for everyone.
The light that casts no shadow
The love that never ends
Quite beyond the imagination
And the thoughts that would define
He, is like a diamond in the sand
Upon which a sunbeam shines.
Theres nothing else thats happening
I know it sounds extreme
But you really must remember
This life is but a dream.

I mean that's some pretty toxic shit, don't you think? This is pure infantile idolatry. Let's be fair about this.

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 03:47:44 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: x#%*!
Subject: Another confused premie.........
Message:
If by doubting you mean questioning, or examining one's association with m and the cult...THAT takes alot of courage.

But I really didn't expect you to know that :)

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 02:48:30 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: x#%*!
Subject: You cannot doubt the truth
Message:
It's because Maharaji is not true but a fraud that it is very hard to keep any faith in him.

It's hard to keep faith with a charlatan but easy to have faith in one's own feelings. I follow my heart. I don't follow a heartless charlatan.

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 04:33:57 (GMT)
From: x#%*!
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Sure you can Dave
Message:
If it's so easy then why all the drama about having faith in God? Really Dave, what planet are you from!
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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 10:08:27 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: x#%*!
Subject: Faith in man not God
Message:
I don't have faith in God. God will not help me. I must help myself. God will not help others either but perhaps I can help them if they are known to me.

Every time I've driven across Tower Bridge, I have had faith that it wasn't going to suddenly be raised while I was on it. That's faith in your fellow man, not God.

Do you have faith in human nature or the human spirit? Maharaji always critisises human nature and yet he is totally dependent on it in others. Everything he benefits from is due to the human nature and kindness of others.

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 10:50:42 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Faith in man not God: So true Dave.
Message:
Hi Dave,

You said:

Do you have faith in human nature or the human spirit? Maharaji always critisises human nature and yet he is totally dependent on it in others. Everything he benefits from is due to the human nature and kindness of others.

You are so right. Lard's totally dependant on others and all he has is because of people's kindness. Lard is so cocky and always putting people down. What about love? No. He doesn't love his premies, he just uses them to continue playing the Lard's game.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 04:32:42 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: sb
Subject: Fat in man is God: the TRUTH on Lard's Grease
Message:
So simple to understand!

Who would be a follower of a skinny diet Lard these days?

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 13:01:29 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Fat in man is God: the TRUTH on Lard's Grease
Message:
ROFL
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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 10:42:26 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Not only is God always fat
Message:
But he has transvestite tendencies too. Click here to see pot bellied transvestite incarnations of God. Even the female incarnations are well filled out.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 16:24:49 (GMT)
From: JB
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Not only is God always fat
Message:
Dave,

Again I will say the only people that even care if some teachers - past or present are fat - are those that have either a fashion concept (which is easy in our society) or those that have a concept of renunciation or detachment (to food).

I could care less if Yogananda was heavy or the statue in my garden of a fat, happy Buddha.

I think that all this talk of fat or money is a waste of time.
In another society they could be complaining about why doesn't he let his hair grow over his ears and wear a yamaca.

See what I mean? It's all so much to do with our concepts from fashion magazines and eastern books we've read that we want all the masters/teachers to look like our concepts. And they all vary SO much.

JB

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 13:03:03 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: They are all chubby!! LOL (nt)
Message:
LOL
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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 00:59:58 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Ian Dury
Subject: Where y'all from?
Message:
Thanks for the thanks, Ian. But where did you actually commit these crimes against humanity? Tell us more. This place is nothing if it isn't a good gossip center.
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Date: Tues, Mar 21, 2000 at 20:59:41 (GMT)
From: Dante
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The Cure
Message:
The best cure for a sluggish mind is to disturb its routine. ~William H.
Danforth~
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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 03:26:58 (GMT)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Dante
Subject: What I Thought You Were Going to Say (OT)
Message:
I thought you might mention that the Cure is touring and will be in San Diego on June 1. Thought I'd dye my hair black and see if I can get darshan from Robert Smith.
eb
Always a Groupie
No longer a Gurupie
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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 03:57:26 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: What I Thought You Were Going to Say (OT)
Message:
Disintegration was the best ever
Kyle or Stan - somebody from South Park
course they said blame Canada too... ahem
.......Selene of arrested development (I say blame gooroo)
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Date: Tues, Mar 21, 2000 at 20:26:25 (GMT)
From: Love
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Love and Soul
Message:
Love makes your soul crawl out from its hiding place.

Zora Neale Hurston

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 16:34:54 (GMT)
From: JB
Email: None
To: Love
Subject: Love and Soul
Message:
' Love bade me welcome
and my soul drew back.'

by - can't remember

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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 15:20:49 (GMT)
From: 'Zora'
Email: None
To: JB
Subject: But, was it Love dear? ;-)
Message:
And have you remembered even vaguely where it's from? Assuming that it was Love, the context can be important. How do you interpret it? Then again, there does seem to be a pattern to many of the 'truisms,' in that they often have a polar opposite. have you noticed?

Too many cooks spoil the broth. vs. Many hands make light work. etc.

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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 16:10:55 (GMT)
From: JB
Email: None
To: 'Zora'
Subject: But, was it Love dear? ;-)
Message:
Maybe a Spencer? I'll ask aan Eng. teacher friend.

I remember the poem and so my interpretation - since you ask - thank you very much...would be...we have a fear of love. A lack of trust.We've been hurt. Love can be new and scary.

I talked with a premie from Malibu one time - a hot shot in the camera stuff around M - all tan and full of himself - I was 'up front' doing security -we talked and it was clear this guy didn't meditate. I talked to him about going inside and 'breaking the barrior' - I called it - referring actually to this poem. He was so afraid of his fear of feeling tons of love inside he couldn't talk about it anymore,even. He was so squirmy
his fear was very deep.

Anyway, I digress - we have so much hurt and fear about love.
We are just all so sweet and hurt I feel.

JB

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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 18:52:08 (GMT)
From: Zora
Email: None
To: JB
Subject: mmm hmm . . .
Message:
My feelings exactly. Do you think that this 'hurt and fear about Love' is relatively generalized?
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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 17:16:47 (GMT)
From: JB
Email: None
To: JB
Subject: ps - Zora
Message:
One of the reasons I picked 'JB' - is bec of Archabald Leach's play - 'JB' - about Job from the old Testament.
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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 18:56:37 (GMT)
From: Zora
Email: None
To: JB
Subject: ps - Zora
Message:
An interesting choice. A lot of life lived with integrity seems to require the patience of Job at times. I'm not familiar with the play you refer to, but it sounds like it would be worth checking out. Thanks.
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Date: Tues, Mar 21, 2000 at 23:54:18 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Love
Subject: Spring Out maybe, or is that 'baby come closer'
Message:
Heard it calleds many things, but soul, that's a first!
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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 04:25:14 (GMT)
From: Zora Neale Hurston
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Oh hamzen, what a novel spin! LOL
Message:
Please feel free to visit my websites!
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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 19:49:15 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Zora Neale Hurston
Subject: I would visit your sites but
Message:
I'm getting error message, specified server can't be found
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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 05:36:01 (GMT)
From: Zora Neale Hurston
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: OOps! Here's one.
Message:
(didn't know this about me!)
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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 07:26:39 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Zora Neale Hurston
Subject: Zora my dear, getting the same error message again
Message:
ee
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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 19:27:43 (GMT)
From: Zora Neale Hurston
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Sorry Hamzen, must be technical difficulties -mine
Message:
I made a change in the address because I have never seen a 'www-' instead of 'www.' Silly me! (I just tested it - now it works for me - hope it was slightly worth waiting for, if only to satisfy your curiosity.

Hope this takes you to info about one of my lesser known forays into ethno-anthropology

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 22:25:44 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Zora Neale Hurston
Subject: 'Zora' verrrry interesting
Message:
Did you go any further on the pharmacology route, research etc?

Personally I'm increasingly interested in this whole spirituality = internal chemicals idea.

Please, please, lets roll with this one, nobody else here seems to be more than remotely interested in the topic.

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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 17:23:05 (GMT)
From: JB
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: ps Ham and Zora
Message:
Just to get some background - I have indulged in many an hallucinagenic. Best one was fasting 6 days and then dropping acid - White Window Pane - if you rem the stuff. That was a trip that lasted for days, I must say.
And then the regular array - mesculin,mushrooms, much LSD,coke.
Quaaludes were my favorite,however. In college we called it the Love drug.
Just to let you know who your posting with is all.

JB

The LSD I took two days bef rec. Kn. was just THE best.

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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 03:52:31 (GMT)
From: 'Zora'
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: I was worried that I remembered a thread....
Message:
... a while back and that you might be interested in this topic - but how can I resist when you ask so nicely! And I agree with you that few have even a remote interest, or intelligent comment to make - with notable exceptions in books. Amazing what you can turn up by chance doing a quick search on the web, isn't it?

For some bizarre reason I took organic mescaline in caps two times in 1972 or 3, before I had even drunk alcohol or done anything else. I finally tried acid a number of times in 1982/83. I have occasionally taken fly agaric mushrooms - most recently last year. I have done very pure cocaine and smoked both cocaine, and heroine, none to any extreme at all. I have intuitively trusted and been curious about the 'organic' as opposed to manufactured chemicals. All these things just sort of sporadically came and went in my life - no pun intended. And I don't like what I've heard/read about these rave scenes either, although I think I've come across something interesting about trance music.

What's your experience been? What aspect are you interested in? Who have you read? I never got that much into Casteneda, for example.

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Date: Tues, Mar 21, 2000 at 20:31:55 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Love
Subject: Ahhhh. simplicity, herself!
Message:
Nah, this one's way too easy....... I'm gonna let it stand on its own merit....

TIMBER!!!!!!!!!!

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Date: Tues, Mar 21, 2000 at 23:51:34 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: ham@hamzen.freeserve.co.uk
To: Mike
Subject: Too naughty, yes you are Mike and gm foods!
Message:
By the way still cogitating those posts of yours in answer to my questions from the other day, hit quite deep, connecting across the board, not just premie stuff, but 60's bollox ie non-action and hippie/new age arrogance, and funnily enough gm as in genetically modified food, especially research on Vit A enhanced rice which could be HUGELY beneficial, but has been destroyed by the environmental movement. Implications etc etc

Is this a midlife crisis & change of heart I feel coming on.

Wish you were in England at the moment, would love to get together for a chat, you up for e-mails?

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 01:24:57 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Sure.....
Message:
Ham: I'll send ya an email. :-)
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Date: Tues, Mar 21, 2000 at 22:50:39 (GMT)
From: George
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Dream on(nt)
Message:
fool
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Date: Tues, Mar 21, 2000 at 23:48:35 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: George
Subject: Your house of cards
Message:
George: Today you think I'm a fool, tomorrow.... well, we'll see. After you've wasted even more time than I have on this little putz...... sooner or later...... you'll 'realize' that you've been had. I just hope you have some years left when that happens.
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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 02:15:40 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: So, by your logic?
Message:
Love and Zora Neale Hurston are premies?
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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 00:05:53 (GMT)
From: George
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Presumptions on the Internet
Message:
One thing I never do is waste my time, be assured of that. If tomorrow is as good as today I'm in for a real nice time. Forget about your little putz. I have. You were the one taken for a ride not me. Yours were the wasted years. Not mine. Live long and prosper,
Klingon.
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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 02:00:32 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: George
Subject: Vulcan
Message:
'Live long and prosper'

Vulcan

'It's a good day to die'

Klingon

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 06:30:03 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: 'Today is a good day to die.'
Message:
'Today is a good day to die' is attributed to Native Americans. I think it's Crazy Horse from the Battle of Wounded Knee, but I dunno. In the face of improbable odds.
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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 07:15:49 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: 'Today is a good day to die.'
Message:
If that's true, what can I say, but 'Cool.'

BTW, I have a video tape of an old film (shot in 1928 (?) called Eskimo. the Inuktitut is subtitled, and in it they never say I or you, Only 'this man', 'one woman' and so on (haven't watched it for a few years).

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Date: Tues, Mar 21, 2000 at 22:55:24 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: George
Subject: Dream on, who sounds
Message:
foolish?
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Date: Tues, Mar 21, 2000 at 23:40:54 (GMT)
From: George
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Who sounds dreamy?
Message:
To some love might sound foolish. To others maybe not. Such an indvidual experience. I am always amazed that two human beings are not even remotely alike. Apart from the source of their existence. At least we have that in common. Its a beautiful night here. I hope you are well whoever you are.
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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 11:00:14 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: George
Subject: Who sounds dreamy?
Message:
George,

What are you talking about?? Are you a premie?

To some love might sound foolish. To others maybe not. Such an indvidual experience. I am always amazed that two human beings are not even remotely alike. Apart from the source of their existence. At least we have that in common. Its a beautiful night here. I hope you are well whoever you are.

Please, when you have a chance can you explain what you mean with your post? In general, I mean...

Now is day here, and yes, I am very well, because I've broke the bond of devotion with Rawat through deprogramming and it feels great! He is not the giver of anything. His grace is fake and it was all a dream... So glad to be awake...

Who are you George? I haven't see you here before? Are you one of Rawat devotees? I was one until November99, more o less.

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 04:05:52 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: George
Subject: Sorry, George
Message:
George,

I apologize about the 'fuck a duck' remark. I promised myself that when I returned to the forum, after a slight reprieve that I would try to be less crass. I was really starting to get that way with some of the premies, and I was left feeling ignoble as a result. I don't think I have quite the panache Jim or Gerry has when they use such language, so maybe I shouldn't. But then, maybe I am crass and what the fuck you gonna do about it, eh, boy?

No, seriously, I really do think premies are a dishonest lot who hide behind sweet talk to convey their distaste. It bugs me and gets under my skin. So I react.

But George, don't you think talk is cheap? I do. I really, really hate when people talk about the heart, and love, and in such superficial, gloppy, tones as do premies and Maharaji. And then when an ex jumps all over a premie about their surface sentiments, the ex is said to be lacking in compassion, and/or understanding. But it's really not like that. It's just that bullshit is bullshit, and we've got our bullshit detectors way up to catch it, so it doesn't imprison us as it has in the past.

It's not that love doesn't mean anything to us. We are, believe it or not, as human as you or any premie, and love, as a result, is equally important to us as it is to you. It's just that, as much as we hoped for it, we never did find the love Maharaji promised. So anytime he or any of his devotees have got something to say about love, we, or at least I, am automatically going to say 'bullshit'! Can you blame us?

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 17:35:20 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Well said, Jerry! Very well said!
Message:
Jerry: I'm tired of the talk after 25 plus years! I want, no I DEMAND, to see some action on their part that proves they are the repository of truth and love. It's been a long long time since M's promises were made and, as yet, not one of them has come to fruition! I think we have the right to actually DEMAND a demo, don't you? They may take exception with this, but it's their claim, right? I don't claim to be the repository of truth and love, therefore I have nothing to prove..... they DO!

Talk, talk, talk..... that's all they do (until proven otherwise!) So far, NO PROOF other than some really gloppy poetry. Since ANYONE can write gloppy poetry, that doesn't do much to prove that M is THE repository or that those who meditate are somehow specially endowed. So, NOPE, that doesn't qualify as proof either.....

Very well said, Jerry! :-)

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 00:59:23 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: George
Subject: Who sounds dreamy?
Message:
To some love might sound foolish.

Love is a four letter word, dude. Anybody can use it. The devil himself, if it will get him his way. I really tire easy of people who just 'love' to drone on about it. It doesn't take long before I'm bored silly listening to you premies and your passive-aggressive sweet talk. Why not try to be more honest about it and tell us what you really feel about us, like I'll tell you what I really feel about you, like, why don't you go fuck a duck?

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Date: Tues, Mar 21, 2000 at 23:56:46 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: George
Subject: Who sounds creamy?
Message:
Concepts, con cepts, concepts.
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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 00:11:34 (GMT)
From: George
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Now and Zen
Message:
Hamzone,

Hands up. You got me there. Cool.

George

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