Mr. Blockhead -:- 95 % of posts are written by men. -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 06:15:58 (GMT)

__ Peter Howie -:- 95 % of posts are written by men. -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 01:28:09 (GMT)

__ Runamok -:- 95 % of posts are written by men. -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 17:20:01 (GMT)

__ __ Testosterone -:- 95 % of posts are written by men. -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 20:20:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ Helen -:- LOL -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 00:56:38 (GMT)

__ JW -:- Where do you get your statistics -- make them up? -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 11:27:47 (GMT)

__ __ hamzen/ Maybe u r right, -:- but where are the women in this thread? -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 20:23:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ JW -:- but where are the women in this thread? -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 02:28:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ ham -:- but where are the women in this thread? -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 08:31:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ JW -:- That doesn't make any sense, Hamzen -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 02:20:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ hamzen -:- That doesn't make any sense, Hamzen -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 08:19:47 (GMT)

__ Politically incorrect man -:- 95 % of posts are written by men. -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 10:29:51 (GMT)

__ __ Another PIC man -:- 95 % of posts are written by men. -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 13:11:47 (GMT)

__ __ Oliver -:- 95 % of posts are written by men. -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 11:23:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ Gregg -:- sexism/politically incorrect -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 16:08:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ JW -:- Right On Gregg -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 01:42:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Gregg -:- 'politically correct' -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 15:16:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- It's about power -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 14:14:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- One Other Thing... -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 18:21:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- God, Jerry, THINK about what you're saying..... -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 17:50:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Incidentally -:- Sat, Mar 25, 2000 at 10:20:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- I've thought about it. -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 19:42:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Have you really? -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 20:07:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- I respectfully take issue with that statement, Joe -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 22:27:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Bullshit, Jim -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 23:01:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- No, no, NOOOOooooo -- wrong! -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 23:27:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- God, Jim -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 23:33:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Pass me that talking stick -:- Sat, Mar 25, 2000 at 01:02:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Attempted Proof by Absurd Anecdote -:- Sat, Mar 25, 2000 at 17:37:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- Right on, Jerry... how about John Rocker? -:- Sat, Mar 25, 2000 at 14:25:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Huh? -:- Sat, Mar 25, 2000 at 17:41:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Huh? -:- Sun, Mar 26, 2000 at 00:00:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Stop lecturing, JW. You sound so PC -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 20:45:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Thanks, Jerry -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 23:12:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Zinn has more soul -:- Sat, Mar 25, 2000 at 00:33:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- But it's madness! -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 08:44:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Agreed, Dave -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 18:04:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Harry -:- But it's madness! -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 10:39:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Bullshit, Joe -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 02:31:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Nice Speech but what the fuck you talking about? -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 17:54:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- I'm talking about humourless hypersensitivity (nt) -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 18:15:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Oh (nt) -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 18:21:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Another PIC man -:- It's Jim's fault. -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 04:32:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Adn that's the way it should be, Gregg -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 17:11:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Gregg -:- Yes, but... -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 17:49:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Politically incorrect man -:- Yes, but... -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 18:20:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- These days it's more PC for women to be sexist: -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 21:16:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan I agree -:- These days it's more PC for women to be sexist: -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 21:39:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- These days it's more PC for women to be sexist: -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 19:41:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Remy -:- Just to rip 'em both -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 00:52:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Just to rip 'em both -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 02:58:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- Just to rip 'em both -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 05:13:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ selene -:- Just to rip 'em both -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 17:01:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Keep 'em comin' Heidi, (as is your wont!) (nt) -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 19:39:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JB -:- RE: Selene/Heidi -:- Sat, Mar 25, 2000 at 13:59:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- RE: Selene/Heidi - I thought it was obvious? (nt) -:- Sat, Mar 25, 2000 at 15:01:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- RE: Selene/Heidi - I thought it was obvious? (nt) -:- Sun, Mar 26, 2000 at 01:08:46 (GMT)

John -:- my fiancee was a follower of maharji her ex is -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 01:57:08 (GMT)

__ SB -:- Lets hear your questions. (nt) -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 12:15:49 (GMT)

__ Robbie -:- my fiancee was a follower of maharji her ex is -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 08:01:08 (GMT)

__ Kansas -:- Your fiancee was a follower..... -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 06:35:53 (GMT)

__ a-z -:- my fiancee was a follower of maharji her ex is -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 03:18:26 (GMT)

__ __ G -:- the meditation techniques -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 04:02:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ a-z -:- the meditation techniques -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 04:19:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ cq -:- the link techniques -:- Sat, Mar 25, 2000 at 17:03:30 (GMT)

__ Jim -:- Sure, ask away -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 02:30:17 (GMT)

Ronnie -:- Experiments -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 22:40:14 (GMT)

__ G -:- People don't reboot, computers are rebooted. (nt) -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 00:13:57 (GMT)

__ __ Ronnie -:- People don't reboot, computers are rebooted. (nt) -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 09:07:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ G -:- reboot is a computer term -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 12:19:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- reboot is a computer term -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 01:17:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- reboot is a computer term -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 14:15:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Ronnie -:- reboot is a computer term -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 15:27:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Wheras Premies are -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 21:13:34 (GMT)

Hal -:- I could sure hate some premies too Jim -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 22:34:11 (GMT)

__ Trust me -:- x#%*! is Nil / URL (see if he denies it!) nt -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 02:49:48 (GMT)

__ Joey -:- I could sure hate some premies too Jim -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 01:19:22 (GMT)

__ __ Hal -:- Joey -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 07:43:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ Joey -:- Hal -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 14:02:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Hal -:- Hal -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 14:52:07 (GMT)

__ Jerry -:- Ooh, you said that nasty word -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 01:13:16 (GMT)

__ __ Remy -:- Ooh, you said that nasty word -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 00:44:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jerry -:- We're just in our minds, Remy -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 01:31:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ cq -:- So only divorcees follow their minds huh? -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 20:49:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Remy -:- huh? -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 23:18:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Felt that way. Wish my mind had been too. (nt) -:- Sat, Mar 25, 2000 at 15:06:27 (GMT)

JB -:- Sir Dave, con't up here from lower thread -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 19:39:42 (GMT)

__ G -:- Crop circles, some are hoaxes, some may not be -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 00:29:38 (GMT)

__ __ JB -:- Crop circles, some are hoaxes, some may not be -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 02:54:12 (GMT)

__ Sir Dave -:- Crop circles and the Bermuda Triangle -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 01:22:40 (GMT)

__ __ JB -:- Did I ask the right person or what??:-) nt -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 15:24:26 (GMT)

__ __ RT -:- Crop circles - Photo Proof. -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 14:50:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- Hey what about Y2K, RT? -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 00:26:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ Robyn -:- Crop circles - Photo Proof. -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 17:11:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ RT -:- Heckel and Hide -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 20:20:43 (GMT)

__ Mike -:- crop circles -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 19:48:50 (GMT)

__ __ gerry -:- crop circles -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 19:58:24 (GMT)

__ __ __ Mike -:- crop circles -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 20:30:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Runamok -:- What about cattle mutilation (don't read if quesy) -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 21:16:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- What about cattle mutilation (don't read if quesy) -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 21:54:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- What about cattle mutilation (too late if you read -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 22:07:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- cattle mutilations - a more mundane explanation, -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 00:54:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- cattle mutilations - a more mundane explanation, -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 05:22:15 (GMT)

gerry -:- David Icke --have a listen--make up your own mind -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 16:50:48 (GMT)

__ Jim -- ICKE DEFENDS HIMSE -:- ELF (warning: Very, very funny!) -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 16:21:20 (GMT)

__ __ Jim -:- TAKE A CLOSE LOOK AT A MADNESS -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 16:33:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- A Concise Description of the Illuminati -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 16:42:08 (GMT)

__ Jim -:- I listened -- he's a complete fruitcake -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 17:34:36 (GMT)

__ __ gerry -:- I listened -- he's a complete fruitcake -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 17:53:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- No, silly, it's not at all 'ad hominem' -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 00:15:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ gerry -:- No, silly, it's not at all 'ad hominem' -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 04:08:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ ham -:- Gerry the guy has been hanging out with some -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 07:41:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Aren't we all 'Sons of God?' -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 15:48:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- Ickey rules ok! -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 21:48:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Yes, read 'The Biggest Secret'! -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 16:47:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Ickey rules ok! -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 15:51:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- No, Gerry, you're wrong -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 04:59:10 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- No, Jim, you're wrong -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 15:37:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- No, Jim, you're wrong -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 17:08:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- No, Jim, you're wrong -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 04:12:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ Don't anyone listen... -:- Jim's already made your mind up for you. (nt) -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 18:03:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Kansas -:- Jim Defies Talking Stick Rules? -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 18:51:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Stupid new age window dressing? -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 00:18:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Kansas -:- Stupid new age window dressing? -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 02:29:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- What's wrong? Can't you read? -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 05:24:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Kansas -:- Can read. Do read. Do know. -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 06:05:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Look who's talking! -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 17:17:10 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Kansas -:- Look who's talking! -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 19:09:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Thanks very much -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 23:52:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Kansas -:- Stupid Man. Its not your fourm-court-boot camp -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 19:03:10 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Could you try to at least SOUND intelligent? -:- Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 22:30:24 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Jim Defies Talking Stick Rules? -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 19:15:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Kansas -:- Jim Defies Talking Stick Rules? -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 06:52:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Those rules suck -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 17:21:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Jim Defies Talking Stick Rules? -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 15:56:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- PS I'm bailing out at this point... -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 19:21:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ KS2 -:- Jim Defies Talking Stick Rules? -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 19:15:49 (GMT)

Jim -:- Is this funny or WHAT?? -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 15:36:54 (GMT)

__ Jim -:- Hey, here's another contestant -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 15:56:10 (GMT)

__ Susan -:- Very funny and nauseating -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 15:53:18 (GMT)

__ __ Jim -:- I don't know but this is addicting! -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 16:05:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- I don't know. Seems pretty hard to beat Ivete -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 16:16:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Susan -:- I need an emesis basin...... -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 16:26:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Excellent Susan -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 20:27:24 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Yes, well, um, thank you for that, Susan (nt) -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 16:29:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- ROTFLOL (nt) -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 16:31:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- are you saying Enjoying Life won't publish my poem -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 16:34:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Y shld they when they've got stuff like this? -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 16:39:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- This turns you on? -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 17:10:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Come on, Jerry, it's FUNNY -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 01:06:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- I guess I'm just not there yet, Jim -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 01:41:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Well that's the other side --- tragedy and comedy -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 02:02:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Thanks -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 22:05:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- But then Janice is just so good too! -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 16:25:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- But then Janice is just so good too! -:- Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 04:32:25 (GMT)

__ gerry -:- No it's repulsive--can't read that crap (nt) -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 15:48:27 (GMT)

__ __ cq -:- Remarkable sense of watching clones being made(nt) -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 20:13:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ Fanny -:- Cannd Bliss Tracd to Sweetnd Cndnsd Mlk in Indn Fd -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 22:05:25 (GMT)

Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 06:15:58 (GMT) From: Mr. Blockhead Email: None To: Everyone Subject: 95 % of posts are written by men. Message:

Why?

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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 01:28:09 (GMT) From: Peter Howie Email: None To: Mr. Blockhead Subject: 95 % of posts are written by men. Message:

I love disturbing questions. This type of question however is very tricky. In one sense it is unanswerable. In another it is simply a provocation rather than a significant disturbance. I am still working on ways to address it when it arises so these thoughts are draft and in process. My reasons are many, but fall into the following categories. 1) Any men who ansewer can be all to easily seen in the light of being defensive. 2) The women who respond could be seen as protective of men or blind or both. 3) The process of this type of question disengages from content and personality - that is the content can be dismissed because it is gender bases/biased. The personalities also can be dismissed because they are simply 'genders' not themselves. 4) The women who have been making regular contributions become marginalised. (And if there were a gender bias this questions could marginalise them even more - in that they could interpret it as not having been visible) 5) Splitting the world into 2 camps is simplistic and can be dangerous. 6) If it is true does it say anything at all When this type of question is asked in groups I have worked with the above themes tend to emerge. And they are difficult to deal with. How can a man be criticised for being a man. How can a woman be criticised for being a woman. If there is a domination of a particular role - lets say bumptious, bombastic, assertive, argumantative discussers - well that is another issue. Cheers for now Peter Howie

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 17:20:01 (GMT) From: Runamok Email: None To: Mr. Blockhead Subject: 95 % of posts are written by men. Message:

It used to be said quite a bit that the Internet was more inhabited by men. I know the ratio went down and more women joined in, but there are probably still more men. Whether the social structure got 'menned' or not is another story, but I've heard it said quite a bit that some of the more aggressive posting is strictly male and I think that is true. It's a point worth looking at.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 20:20:49 (GMT) From: Testosterone Email: None To: Runamok Subject: 95 % of posts are written by men. Message:

I've heard it said quite a bit that some of the more aggressive posting is strictly male and I think that is true. Generally speaking, this is so, but you really don't want to be near my sister, Estrogen, at that time of the month. Even I, the mighty Testosterone, duck for cover if I know what's good for me.

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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 00:56:38 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Testosterone Subject: LOL Message:

Amen brother T.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 11:27:47 (GMT) From: JW Email: None To: Mr. Blockhead Subject: Where do you get your statistics -- make them up? Message:

I don't know how you can tell exactly who is male and female among the posters here, so your 95% figure has no verifiable basis in reality. Moreover, I know there are lots of women who post here, and there have been times when it appeared to me that women were the majority of ex-premies posting on this forum. Of course, like anything else, the relative balance can very from time to time. So, I think you are starting out with a false assumption. Second, who gives a rat's ass?

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 20:23:09 (GMT) From: hamzen/ Maybe u r right, Email: None To: JW Subject: but where are the women in this thread? Message:

thread. Your points about knowing the sex identity of posters, and the phases of balance between m/f are fair enough but Blockheads comment (I feel probably the first sensible one of his I've seen) seems reasonable enough whatever his motivation. The very same thought had struck me last week, and it does seem a while longer than usual that this has been the case here. On a similar tack I've always found it peculiar how so many of the Brits here 'appear' to be male. Peculiar since the drift away from gm does not appear to have a m/f basis. On a jokier level, I had an internet dream once where Jim appeared, and what a shock/surprize, he was a woman. I woke up instantly!

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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 02:28:23 (GMT) From: JW Email: None To: hamzen/ Maybe u r right, Subject: but where are the women in this thread? Message:

Drifting away from M may not have a male/female skew, but it was my observation when I was in the cult (and this you can observe, unlike here on the forum), that there may have been more male than female premies or at least I think there were more male fanatic premies than female. For example, there were quite a few more male than female ashram premies, and the leadership of the cult was very much male-dominated, especially in the earlier years. Plus, as I mentioned, the cult, partly in light of the Hindi influence, was very sexist.

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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 08:31:43 (GMT) From: ham Email: None To: JW Subject: but where are the women in this thread? Message:

Re m/f balance in the cult, I would love to see the breakdown of this in terms of cults in general, as well as DLM/Elan Vital. Over here in the UK it always struck me as fairly even, but that was with minimal checking out and could easily reflect my own bias. It is curious though that as far as I have been able to check/see there are no females from the uk posting here whereas there are a large number of brit males who post. Certainly in terms of hierarchy couldn't agree more, and the worst aspects of maledom too. Far too many 'little' minds and suburban dictators.

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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 02:20:16 (GMT) From: JW Email: None To: hamzen/ Maybe u r right, Subject: That doesn't make any sense, Hamzen Message:

If you agree with me that you don't know the gender of the posters, how can you start with the assumption that the forum is male dominated? And how can you find Blockhead's comment 'reasonable' when he claims, with no evidence whatsoever except random guess, that '95% of the posters are male?'

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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 08:19:47 (GMT) From: hamzen Email: None To: JW Subject: That doesn't make any sense, Hamzen Message:

JW, of course any assumption about the gender bias of the forum purely scientifically would be a complete no-no, but the assumption is that most people post under names that honestly reflect their gender in which case.......... And how can you find Blockhead's comment 'reasonable' when he claims, with no evidence whatsoever except random guess, that '95% of the posters are male?' What I was referring to was that for a while now it had struck me that the forum appeared to have few female posters, and for a longer period than the usual phases of 'mood change' that take place here. There was also supposed to be a hint of irony because all of Blockheads posts that I had seen prior to this displayed no awareness and very little intelligence at all, so I took the 95% as an exaggeration due to taking a 'premie' stance, and went onto his general comment. Hope that clarifies a bit JW.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 10:29:51 (GMT) From: Politically incorrect man Email: None To: Mr. Blockhead Subject: 95 % of posts are written by men. Message:

It's because the women are all in the kitchen.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 13:11:47 (GMT) From: Another PIC man Email: None To: Politically incorrect man Subject: 95 % of posts are written by men. Message:

On a transatlantic flight, a plane passes through a severe storm. The turbulence is awful, and things go from bad to worse when one wing is struck by lightning. On woman in particular loses it. Screaming, she stands up in the front of the plane. 'I'm too young to die!' she wails. Then she yells, 'Well, if I'm going to die, I want my last minutes on Earth to be memorable! I've had plenty of sex in my life, but no one has ever made me really feel like a woman! Well, I've had it! Is there ANYONE on this plane who can make me feel like a WOMAN??' For a moment there is silence. Everyone has forgotten their own peril and they all stare riveted, at the desperate woman in the front of the plane. Then, a man stands up in the rear of the plane. 'I can make you feel like a woman,' he says. He's gorgeous. Tall, built, with long, flowing black hair and jet black eyes, he starts to walk slowly up the aisle, unbuttoning his shirt one button at a time. No one moves. The woman is breathing heavily in anticipation as the stranger approaches. He removes his shirt. Muscles ripple across his chest as he reaches her and extends the arm holding his shirt to the trembling woman and whispers: 'Iron this.'

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 11:23:47 (GMT) From: Oliver Email: None To: Politically incorrect man Subject: 95 % of posts are written by men. Message:

Why do women have smaller feet than men? So that they can get closer to the sink.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 16:08:35 (GMT) From: Gregg Email: None To: Oliver Subject: sexism/politically incorrect Message:

Funny. I've noticed it's now perfectly OK to tell sexist/racist jokes as long as you proudly proclaim you are 'politically incorrect,' branding yourself as independent and brave and free and a little ironically distant from what is, after all, nothing more than one more sexist/racist joke.

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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 01:42:45 (GMT) From: JW Email: None To: Gregg Subject: Right On Gregg Message:

The label 'politically correct' has been used criticize all attemps at avoiding offensive speech. It is a complete red herring. Being 'politically correct' is nothing more than being polite and having regard for the feelings of others.

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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 15:16:39 (GMT) From: Gregg Email: None To: JW Subject: 'politically correct' Message:

One more thing about the phrase 'politically correct...' The ironic thing about this is that the phrase was originally used IRONICALLY by sixties leftists to make fun of their own tendency to bend over backwards to be all-inclusive and non-offensive.

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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 14:14:29 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: JW Subject: It's about power Message:

I don't know the full reasons for, or history of PC, but my earliest recollections of it are when black people demanded to be called 'black' instead of 'colored'. Back then, you were flirting with a black EYE if you called a black GUY, colored. But today it's OK to call blacks 'people of color'. What's the difference? None. And both can be used with tones of respect. But if blacks can get whites to use only those terms which blacks find acceptable, blacks have made whites subservient as a result. The same with Asians. It's no longer PC to call them Oriental. Why not? What's so impolite or disrespectful about it? Nothing. What's interesting is that terms that are ordinarilly considered the most offensive are frequently used within the offended group to describe themselves. Blacks love to call each other 'nigger', and I do believe that gays frequently refer to each other as 'faggots'. But God forbid a straight should ever call one that. He has not been given pemission. It's all about power. It's politics after all. And what is politics about if not power?

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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 18:21:08 (GMT) From: JW Email: None To: Jerry Subject: One Other Thing... Message:

It is true that sometimes the reviled 'n-word' is used by some blacks, in joking reference to each other. Also true that gay people have adopted the word 'queer' as well. I have not heard the same thing about 'faggot.' There are people who think that you can take the reviled word and use it, adopt it, and it loses the negative connotation over time. It's kind of a method of self-impowerment. I must admit, as a gay man, I had a lot of trouble with 'queer' for awhile, because in my youth that was a very negative term. But, I have grown to accept it. In fact, a few years ago, the Gay Pride Parade in San Francisco, had the slogan 'Year of the Queer.' It was amazing, really, that something like that was possible. I find that younger people, both black and gay, tend to be more willing to use those terms, because they grew up in periods when they didn't hear them as much as negative terms, which were INTENDED to be hurtful put-downs.

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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 17:50:37 (GMT) From: JW Email: None To: Jerry Subject: God, Jerry, THINK about what you're saying..... Message:

What's the difference? Big difference. How about reading some history.....and whites subservient to blacks? Are you nuts? Are you aware of the history of racism in this country? First, 'colored' was not invented by black people. It is what white people called black people. It was imposed on them, and as a result, many black people don't like it, for good reason. It harkens back to slavery, Jim Crow laws, segregation and lynchings, of which threre were over 5,000 in this country in the first 20 years of this century, the purpose of which was to keep black people terrified of ever attempting to be anything other that subservient to whites. Not to mention slavery, systematic discrimination, racial profiling, and all the rest. Second, the black people I know are equally happy being called black or 'Arican American.' 'People of color' refers to more than just African Americans, it refers to all non-whites. The very same anaylsis with 'Oriental.' It was an imposed term coined by the British colonial authorities in Asia. It would be like calling caucasions 'occidental.' The fact is Jerry, if you are white, you automatically have a privilege that people of color do not have. It was, and still is, a two-tiered system, based on race. And words have power and meaning, Jerry. They matter. Maybe not to YOU, who may have never experienced discrimination and racism, but to many others it does. The question is, do you want to be sensitive to that, or is it too much trouble because it takes too much effort to try to understand where those feelings among racial minorities in this country come from?

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Date: Sat, Mar 25, 2000 at 10:20:25 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: JW Subject: Incidentally Message:

The term 'Oriental' doesn't have any stigma or negative connotation in the UK. This is the first I've ever heard of such a thing. Other than that, all of the other words you've mentioned are offensive over here too. But like in the US, certain previously derogatory words like queer, nigger etc are used freely within the gay or black community. I've done it myself with the term 'pom' and have sometimes refered to myself as a pom when talking to Australians. I think if you use an offensive term yourself about yourself, then it takes the sting out of it and neutralises it to some extent.

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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 19:42:13 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: JW Subject: I've thought about it. Message:

I'm well aware of the history, past and ongoing, of oppression of blacks in America. Maybe 'colored' was an imposed label upon blacks by whites, and I stress the word maybe. 'Colored' was the nice word for black people back then. The 'n' word, then as now, was the derogatory one. But what about 'black'? There are blacks today who insist upon being 'African-American' and are offended if you use the term 'black'. I saw this with my own eyes when a black, excuse me, African-American activist insisted that a white male she was debating refer to blacks as 'African-American' whenever he referred to them as blacks. That's carrying it a little too far, and in my mind it was nothing but a POWER struggle between the two of them what terminology was going to be used. The very same anaylsis with 'Oriental.' It was an imposed term coined by the British colonial authorities in Asia. It would be like calling caucasions 'occidental.' There you go with that word 'imposed' again. Was it used in a derogatory fashion, such as 'gook' or 'chink', or was it just the label used by one people to define another? And I really don't mind being called 'occidental'. Never did like the word 'caucasian', though. Like George Carlin once said, it sounds like a shoestyle or some mountain range, somewhere. 'Let's go skiing in the Caucasians this weekend', or 'Let me have a pair of the caucasians in size 9D.'

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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 20:07:07 (GMT) From: JW Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Have you really? Message:

Jerry, you say 'colored' was the 'nice' word for black people. The question is, 'nice' to WHOM? White people may have thought it was 'nice,' but black people associate it with segregation. Now, some people think 'segregation' was 'nice,' too. It was just a sort of 'separate but equal' system and wasn't so bad. But segregation wasn't about just separation. It was about domination and humiliation. That's what it was. It was a system of contol. I read the most excellent definition of segregation recently from a 'sociological' perspective: Segregation was a system by which things that blacks and whites both did equally, like learn multipication tables, go to church or eat lunch, were separated, but it allowed extremely close proximity in situations in which whites had clear domination over blacks, such as when blacks were servants, janitors or shined your shoes. The result was not merely a system of separation, but a clear statement of domination and superiority of one race over the other. Whether certain individuals insist on being called one thing or another is up to them as individuals, and you have that right as well. I think that is irrelevent. If the woman you were referring to prefers to be called one thing instead of another, that's her right, just like it is yours. The 'oriental' issue is the same as the 'colored' issue, because it was a word used by the oppressors in a system set up to enforce the domination of one race over the other, just like segregation was. That's why many Asian people don't like it.

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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 22:27:02 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: JW Subject: I respectfully take issue with that statement, Joe Message:

Whether certain individuals insist on being called one thing or another is up to them as individuals, and you have that right as well. I think that is irrelevent. If the woman you were referring to prefers to be called one thing instead of another, that's her right, just like it is yours. This, I think, is where the PC train goes through some pretty weird tunnels. I don't think for a moment that just because I'm a juewish, white, Canadian male that I can take any of those terms out of anyone's lexicon and tell them when and how they can use them. Just because they might apply to me it doesn't mean that I 'own' them in any way. Hardly.

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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 23:01:44 (GMT) From: JW Email: None To: Jim Subject: Bullshit, Jim Message:

First, I didn't know you were 'juewish,' but, hey, you have the right to be what you are... But, seriously, Jim, just because somebody tells you they want to be referred to in a certain way, doesn't take any words from your 'lexicon.' That's silly. You are free to continue using whatever words you want. And that person is free to continue to not like it. I think you are the one that's being sensitive. Moreoever, none of these 'minorities' or groups are monolithic. Some women don't mind being called gals and others will be offended. There are no language police, nor is there an organized group of any sort limiting what you can say, despite what Rush Limbaugh, and his cohort of pissed off white men, will say.

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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 23:27:09 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: JW Subject: No, no, NOOOOooooo -- wrong! Message:

But, seriously, Jim, just because somebody tells you they want to be referred to in a certain way, doesn't take any words from your 'lexicon.' That's silly. You are free to continue using whatever words you want. And that person is free to continue to not like it. I think you are the one that's being sensitive. What are you talking, boy? This whole issue is about whether or not you're free to continue using the words of your choice. PC advocates do their best to legislate away that choice or, if that's not possible, to characterize those who use words not of their liking as insensitive and morally bereft. If this were just a matter of personal preference who'd give a damn? Moreoever, none of these 'minorities' or groups are monolithic. Some women don't mind being called gals and others will be offended. There are no language police, nor is there an organized group of any sort limiting what you can say, despite what Rush Limbaugh, and his cohort of pissed off white men, will say. Well there are indeed all sorts of 'language police' walking the beat these days. Volunteer auxillaries, many of them, but language police all the same.

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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 23:33:28 (GMT) From: JW Email: None To: Jim Subject: God, Jim Message:

Are you THAT influenced by and sensitive to the 'PC Advocates' (whoever THEY are)that you change your speech patterns as a result? Bullshit. You change your speech because you know that what you are saying offends somebody. You may not LIKE that it offends somebody, or maybe you think they SHOULDN'T be offended, but it isn't because some 'advocate' might condemn you as being offensive. From what I know of you, Jim, I don't think being labeled offensive bothers you too much. Just who the fuck are the 'language police', Jim? And what fucking 'legislation' are you talking about? Name one law that prohibits 'words' (other than the stupid FCC rules that ban words like 'shit' from the airwaves). And would you consider those who scream 'PC' when speech is objected to as also 'language police?' It goes both ways, Jim.

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Date: Sat, Mar 25, 2000 at 01:02:30 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: JW Subject: Pass me that talking stick Message:

JW, There's language police. What about that European basketball coach during the Olympic games? He mentioned how blacks had a natural ability to play basketball that whites didn't, or something to that effect. He got severely reprimanded for his remarks. Do you think that was fair? What harm did he do? What proof is there that he's wrong? It sure as hell looks like blacks have a natural ability in the game, but God forbid anyone should say so. There's your language police. I know blacks have suffered because of stereotypes in the past, and care should be made not to make the same mistake, but Jeezus, this poor guy made a harmless observation. Or do you think he said something harmful, because if he did, I don't know what it was. And I'll bet he's just as baffled as I am.

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Date: Sat, Mar 25, 2000 at 17:37:34 (GMT) From: JW Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Attempted Proof by Absurd Anecdote Message:

Jerry, I'm not familiar with what the European coach said so I can't comment, but we have to be careful not to try to prove a point by a couple of ridiculous over-reactions. In most of these cases, people are reprimanded by their EMPLOYERS because they say or do something damaging to the reputation of the company. John Rocker, who said viciously racist and homophobic things, got nothing more than a slap on the wrist for what he said, including calling one of his fellow African-American team members a 'monkey.' He should have been fired, but he is a good ball player so he got, I think, a one month suspension. Big deal. The baseball league, and the Braves, were freaked out by their image being damaged and so they responded, but Rocker didn't suffer much. There is something to be said, however, that baseball players are role models to kids, and it isn't too cool to see that those kinds of comments can be made with little or no consequences. But the league was more afraid that it would sell fewer tickets, lose sponsors, than they were being 'language police.' In the end, it was about money.

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Date: Sat, Mar 25, 2000 at 14:25:42 (GMT) From: Mike Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Right on, Jerry... how about John Rocker? Message:

Jerry: Look at what happened to John Rocker when he 'expressed' his opinion. Yeah, it WAS offensive to many people.... It wasn't the best thinking, that's for sure (I definitely winced when I heard what he said).... But to say that there aren't language police kinda flies in the face of what happened to him. He was treated pretty severely for those comments.... and on an OFFICIAL LEVEL, too! 'Legislated values, ideas and language' is the name of the game on this one! There is no other way to see to say it. Let me make it clear that I didn't like what he said. I found what he said to be pretty stupid, actually. But, I'd defend his right to say it in any way he wishes...... Particular words, alone, do NOT trample anyone's rights. ACTIONS can trample rights.... not words. Some can make a point that words can cause or lead to negative action..... I say 'no,' ideas will happen anyway (we ARE rather creative, afterall). Saying that someone else's ideas or words 'caused' a stupid action is, once again, an attempt to blame ANYONE else (other than ourselves, of course) for our own stupid/prejudiced actions. The 'language' and 'thought' police are blaming everyone but themselves for those actions. By the way, for anyone that doubts the existence of thought-police..... During a national news report of the Rocker incident, the anchor-person said, '....you can't even THINK like that!' THERE ARE YOUR THOUGHT POLICE!!!!!! Personally, I found THAT particular statement MUCH MORE OFFENSIVE to me, as an american, than anything Rocker said..... and the implications were much more disturbing, too! If 'I' DO something that is prejudiced, if 'I' PERFORM a violent act, it's MY fault..... NOT the fault of Mark Twain for using an offensive word in a book. Yes, words can help to form negative ideas that, if 'thought' by a moron, can result in negative actions...... BUT, who is actually to blame for an act? The 'wordsmith' or the PERSON THAT ACTED! You know where my vote goes..... JW, think about this one: How many people are 'permitted' to use the word 'queer,' (without an immediate challenge) even when they are talking about a 'weird' occurance, rather than a person/group! In the U.S., that word is almost GONE from our lexicon. That wasn't meant to offend anyone, btw, it was just an example of a word that most people 'know,' but few will ever again use in ANY context! PC Disclaimer: the opinions expressed are those of the author and do not necessarily represent the opinions of the forum owners or administrators. JW, the thought-police have been around for a VERY long time...... As this statement attests.

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Date: Sat, Mar 25, 2000 at 17:41:26 (GMT) From: JW Email: None To: Mike Subject: Huh? Message:

See my comments to Jerry about Rocker. He got nothing more than a 'slap on the wrist' and it wasn't because of what he said, but because the league feared loss of income. There are no 'thought police' and never were. Regarding the word 'queer' it depends on who you are talking to as to whether you get challenged. It's a personal thing, even among gay people. Some don't mind the word, some find it offensive. Again, the idea that there are 'thought police' is ludicrous.

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Date: Sun, Mar 26, 2000 at 00:00:28 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: JW Subject: Huh? Message:

JW, If the league was fearful that ticket sales would suffer because of Rocker's ignorant remarks, they shouldn't have been. Tickets were sold out for the first meeting between Atlanta and New York the day they went on sale. New York fans can't wait for Rocker to take the mound. I'm one of them. Listen, I agree with Mike. If people don't like the way Rocker thinks, too... fucking... bad. Minorities I've discussed this issue with, laugh at Rocker. To them he's nothing but a hillbilly redneck hanging out in trees, deerhunting, freezing his butt off, 10 hours at a time, maybe more, so who's he to talk about anybody? He's a laughing stock. I can't wait to see the reception he gets when he takes the mound. It's going to be a lot of fun, a lot.

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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 20:45:27 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: JW Subject: Stop lecturing, JW. You sound so PC Message:

JW, When I said 'nice', I meant it wasn't necessarilly a derogatory term. 'Nigger' was and is. But to call someone 'colored' doesn't mean you are expressing disdain or disgust. Many whites used the term 'colored' instead of 'nigger' to avoid being offensive. I'll grant you that they were being ignorant and didn't realize, to blacks, it was. You're right about respecting an individual's request to be called what he or she desires. If a person wants to be called something in particular, out of respect, you should. But we're not talking about one person, here. We're talking about an entire race, and one member of that race insisting that her entire race be called what she wanted. Personally, I found her demanding. The individual referring to blacks as 'blacks' meant no offense by it, so she should not have acted as if he did. On the other hand, just to stop the bitch from whining, he probably would have been wiser to comply. I like that definition of segregation. It does get to the heart of what segregation really is. Have you read Howard Zinn's 'A Peoples History Of The United States', btw? I think you'd enjoy it.

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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 23:12:30 (GMT) From: JW Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Thanks, Jerry Message:

Thanks for the explanation, but I disagree that when one black person says to call them something they are speaking on behalf of an entire race. I don't see how you can think that. And I realize that many white people use terms that are offensive to others unintentionally, like 'colored.' But intent isn't all that's involved here. It also involves raising your consciousness to realize that things you do unintentionally can be offensive. This is what I think many whites hate and call PC. They don't want to have to think about what they are saying. They don't like to have to think twice about it, and blame the victims instead of examining what they are doing. Yes, Peoples History of the US is one of the most important books I've ever read. Zinn is amazing. It's one of the few books that I have read over several times. Also loved his most recent book: You Can't Stand Still on a Moving Train. Actually, that definition of segregation, which knocked my socks off when I read it, came from a book called Lies My Teachers Taught Me by Richard Louwen (not exactly sure of the spelling). Basically, the book explains the lies that are taught in American history textbooks. Amazing and a really excellent book. I think it's had even a bigger effect on me than Zinn's book did.

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Date: Sat, Mar 25, 2000 at 00:33:35 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: JW Subject: Zinn has more soul Message:

I haven't read either book fully, but I recall being deeply stirred, much more, by Zinn than Lew..., Lou..., er that other fellow, especially by his reprint of Frederick Douglass' address during Independence Day in 1852. Awesome. Talk about telling it like it is. If Maharaji could speak with half his conviction, I'd still be a premie, but then, M would be the real deal, which he's not. So, scratch that. Thanks for the explanation, but I disagree that when one black person says to call them something they are speaking on behalf of an entire race. I don't see how you can think that. I think you're misreading me here, JW. This one black person was objecting to her adversary calling the entire black race black, not just her. But to be fair, the white guy did strike me as being a bit of a jerk, and I think she might have lost her cool a little and was responding, partially, to that. I wonder if she would have been so insistent if he came across as more of a human being. I'm on the same page with you about raising consciousness and understanding how we've all been infected by the meme (if you don't object to that theory) of racism, and how a lack of acknowledgement of that is only going to cause it to fester and continue to do the harm it does. I think the reason for this, looking at myself and my own propensity for denial, is that I want to be the one who is sympathized with. I want others to acknowledge my pain. It's selfishness, pure and simple. That's just the way people are. It's very few that realize the rewards of going beyond themselves to empathize with others.

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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 08:44:08 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: JW Subject: But it's madness! Message:

Now people are talking to furnature. In the UK, we no longer have a chairman/chairwoman but instead have the PC 'chair' presiding over meetings. In schools they're not allowed to call the blackboard a blackboard any more, but instead it's called the 'chalkboard'. As if black people were ever offended by the straight forward blackboard, for Gods sake! Black bags for lining dustbins have had to be renamed, refuse bags. Many of our children's nursery rhymes and stories have had to be changed or abandoned because they were considered sexist or racist by the PC brigade. For instance; 'Baa baa black sheep, have you any wool' has been written out of the nursery rhyme books. Plumbers are no longer allowed to talk about 'ballcocks' in the water closet but instead have to refer to it as a ball joint. Engineers are told not to refer to male and female threads in case it offends any women in the vicinity. And the feminist brigade are still trying to rename 'Manchester' because they find it offensive.

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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 18:04:31 (GMT) From: JW Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Agreed, Dave Message:

I think whenever there is any kind of an organized attempt to change the names of things, you can get those kinds of ridiculous examples. But I think in the long run, our speech has changed dramatically over the past 30 years, and it seems completely natural. It's only when the changes are happening that it seems weird. Some of those changes will stick and some won't. It isn't like there is a law that says you can't use the old language. I think we have less of that in this country, probably because we have less centralized governement control. After all, we have states that still fly the Confederate flag over government buildings. So, for example, we have a symbol of slavery flying over a the state capital of South Carolina, a building that is supposed to represent ALL the people of that state, including the 35% of the population that are decendants of slaves. No PC, there, right? What's worse, is you have George W. Bush, in a pandering and desperate attempt to win the South Carolina republican primary, refusing to say the flag should be removed, and also appearing at Bob Jones University, that, until recently, banned interracial dating and called the Catholic Church a satan-inspired cult. He is having a lot of trouble outside South Carolina living those positions down.

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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 10:39:03 (GMT) From: Harry Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: But it's madness! Message:

In Zew Zealand a man-hole is now called a person-hole. It's hilarious.

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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 02:31:49 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: JW Subject: Bullshit, Joe Message:

'Politically Correct' is a much stranger animal than what you describe. Much. And many who've waved the PC banner can share the blame for seeing their flag itself become something of a laughing-stock in the past few years. This has been a natural and justified reaction to the precious, prissy, uptight authoritarianism of a movement that sought to rewrite human nature by mandated nice-talk. Yeah, bring on the PC jokes, the more the merrier.

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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 17:54:52 (GMT) From: JW Email: None To: Jim Subject: Nice Speech but what the fuck you talking about? Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 18:15:18 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: JW Subject: I'm talking about humourless hypersensitivity (nt) Message:

cc

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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 18:21:51 (GMT) From: JW Email: None To: Jim Subject: Oh (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 04:32:32 (GMT) From: Another PIC man Email: None To: Jim Subject: It's Jim's fault. Message:

A man comes home from a tough day of work looking to unwind. After a relaxing dinner with his wife, they retire to bed. So, both go to their separate beds, however the man was not yet ready to slumber. The man calls over to his wife, 'My little boopey-boo, I'm lonely.' So the woman gets out of bed and crosses the room to the husband. On the way she trips on the carpet and falls on her face. The husband with a concerned look on his face says, 'Oh, did my little honey-woney fall on her little nosey-wosey?' The woman gets up and enters the man's bed. The two have passionate sex and afterwards the woman rolls out. As she returns to her bed, she once again catches her foot on the carpet and falls flat on her face. The man looks over his shoulder at his wife lying on the floor and says, 'clumsy bitch'.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 17:11:32 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Gregg Subject: Adn that's the way it should be, Gregg Message:

When men and women can't make jokes about themselves and each other, it's way too serious a world for me.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 17:49:27 (GMT) From: Gregg Email: None To: Jim Subject: Yes, but... Message:

I'm as fond of a belly laugh as the next guy, but, at the same time, it should be acknowledged that humor often serves as a mask for hostility.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 18:20:26 (GMT) From: Politically incorrect man Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: Gregg Subject: Yes, but... Message:

Ok, to balance it out, here's an old joke for the women: Why can't men drive their cars through narrow spaces? Because they think that -------------------- is six inches.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 21:16:44 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Politically incorrect man Subject: These days it's more PC for women to be sexist: Message:

Man to God: 'God, why did you make woman so beautiful?' God to Man: 'So you would love her.' 'But God', Man says, 'why did you make her so dumb?' God replies, 'So she would love you.'

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 21:39:21 (GMT) From: Susan I agree Email: None To: cq Subject: These days it's more PC for women to be sexist: Message:

Imagine this: In our town we have the 'Women's Yellow Pages' of womens businesses....can you fathom if there was a 'Men's Yellow Pages' from which men were excluded? Or the male bashing commercials? It has become okay to insult men as a group. They are seen as so powerful that the potshots are okay. I think buying into that mentality, if we women do so, is to lock ourselves into the role of oppressed victim. I think we need to treat men with the same respect with which we wish to be treated if we really consider ourselves equals. I think if there are more men on the forum it reflects that there are more men on the net. But there are lots more women here compared to when I first began posting, and the mix of different styles and perspectives is nice.

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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 19:41:56 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Susan I agree Subject: These days it's more PC for women to be sexist: Message:

That ol' pendulum just won't stop swinging, eh? But whoever though that the answer to male chauvinism was female chauvinism? Let's here it for the egalitarians! (Equality? - what's that got to do with today's Feminism?)

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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 00:52:14 (GMT) From: Remy Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Just to rip 'em both Message:

Why don't women have any brains? Because they don't have dicks to carry them around in. Am I kicked off now?

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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 02:58:39 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Remy Subject: Just to rip 'em both Message:

What's funny is I brought this topic up on AG weeks ago, but I guess since my name wasn't MRBlockhead or MR anything it never went anywhere. hmphh (who's happy humphrey?)

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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 05:13:37 (GMT) From: Runamok Email: None To: Selene Subject: Just to rip 'em both Message:

I guess since I'm Runamok, when I respond to a thread it doesn't go 'anywhere.' OK j/k.

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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 17:01:48 (GMT) From: selene Email: None To: Runamok Subject: Just to rip 'em both Message:

oh stop! Yeah a few people did answer. it's just as well it died. I was on one of 'those' moods. Well, if I don't get lost in the CA desert or talk that crazy writer guy into letting me hide there forever, or that H the C doesn't get me in too much trouble... you'll have a chance to answer some other weird thread I start.

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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 19:39:01 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: selene Subject: Keep 'em comin' Heidi, (as is your wont!) (nt) Message:

Keep 'em comin' Heidi, (as is your wont!) (nt)

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Date: Sat, Mar 25, 2000 at 13:59:36 (GMT) From: JB Email: None To: cq Subject: RE: Selene/Heidi Message:

cq, Are you implying that Selene and Heidi the Cxxx fr another Forum are one and the same? That would be interesting if true. Thank you, JB

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Date: Sat, Mar 25, 2000 at 15:01:11 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: JB Subject: RE: Selene/Heidi - I thought it was obvious? (nt) Message:

RE: Selene/Heidi - I thought it was obvious? (nt) - but I MIGHT be wrong ...

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Date: Sun, Mar 26, 2000 at 01:08:46 (GMT) From: Robyn Email: None To: cq Subject: RE: Selene/Heidi - I thought it was obvious? (nt) Message:

Dear Chris, Sorry dear, Selene is not Heidi. Heidi is another 'character's' 'other' half but not Selene's. Also, Larkin IS Nigel, he was dedicating the god is snot line to Anth is all. :) Anything else I can do for you? :) Love, Robyn

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 01:57:08 (GMT) From: John Email: johncahill@webtv.net To: Everyone Subject: my fiancee was a follower of maharji her ex is Message:

my fiancee was a follower of maharaji and her ex-husband was was until last year when he passed away, I would like to ask some questions if any one would answer.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 12:15:49 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: John Subject: Lets hear your questions. (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 08:01:08 (GMT) From: Robbie Email: None To: John Subject: my fiancee was a follower of maharji her ex is Message:

I apologize for the eagerness here at the Forum. Some people are unable to read. You wrote that your fiancee is an ex-premie, meaning she was a follower of maharaji. Her ex is dead. I did not see you asked what are the techniques? Waiting for your question....

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 06:35:53 (GMT) From: Kansas Email: None To: John Subject: Your fiancee was a follower..... Message:

Dear John I was just dustin off my six guns from a little distraction with Jim, when I thought of you and thought I would offer some insight from a girl. Thats when I saw the above 95% male statistic. Thats pretty good timing. Well I guess I am a woman now. I been mixed up with some rootin tootin premies in my day. Pun intended. Seriously.. One improtant question, you say your intended was a follower of M. (I find it distasteful to type the whole word). Now then--Does she consider herself an EX premie? -or just 'used to be a follower.' This is a key point

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 03:18:26 (GMT) From: a-z Email: None To: John Subject: my fiancee was a follower of maharji her ex is Message:

Her secret meditation is/was spending 60 minutes a day on 4 different activities. 15 minutes looking at the back of her eyelids, 15 minutes putting her thumb in her ear to hear whatever, 15 minutes sort of feeling her breath 15 minutes taking her tongue and rolling it back to touch the upper back of her mouth by the upper back teeth. the guru insisted he was the lord and between the crown and the slick hindu programming, and his insidious dementia, smart young innocents were cursed with his brand of delusion and wasted lots of time. She could use some understanding and help to wash it all out. Whenever she is ready to try. The more educated you are about it the more useful you will be to her at some point.Good luck, you came to the right place.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 04:02:35 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: John Subject: the meditation techniques Message:

That description was not entirely accurate. In case you're curious, the following web page has a detailed description of the meditation techniques: The Knowledge Session That page describes how they are taught now. They were taught differently years ago, then Maharaji changed them. The 'old way' is described on the following page: Knowledge The following page gives some Indian scriptural background on the techniques: The Meditation Techniques Some ex-followers of Maharaji no longer meditate. Some still meditate using some or all of these techniques. Some meditate using other techniques.

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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 04:19:44 (GMT) From: a-z Email: None To: G Subject: the meditation techniques Message:

Thanks G, I'll have to learn how to make links, it is helpful!

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Date: Sat, Mar 25, 2000 at 17:03:30 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: a-z Subject: the link techniques Message:

Links are a doddle when you know how. Look under 'page link' here

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 02:30:17 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: John Subject: Sure, ask away Message:

I vet a lot of people here would be ready, willing and able to assist.

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 22:40:14 (GMT) From: Ronnie Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Experiments Message:

He who experiments learns much, but reboots often

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 00:13:57 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Ronnie Subject: People don't reboot, computers are rebooted. (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 09:07:12 (GMT) From: Ronnie Email: None To: G Subject: People don't reboot, computers are rebooted. (nt) Message:

I believe the word reboot is a bit older than computers

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 12:19:44 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Ronnie Subject: reboot is a computer term Message:

See this definition of reboot. I've never before seen it applied to humans. Computers are mechanistic and make no decisions on their own.

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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 01:17:45 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: G Subject: reboot is a computer term Message:

Computers are mechanistic and make no decisions on their own. Not yet. But someday, they will. It's inevitable. It's been said that if they're nice, though, they'll keep humans around for pets.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 14:15:25 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: G Subject: reboot is a computer term Message:

I think the term comes from the saying, 'Pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps.' You can't really do it but a computer can and that's what it does every time it is switched on or reset. Meaning that it looks at its own disk and BIOS to find out what it is and how it should operate. Humans of course, need Maharaji to tell them what they are and how they should operate.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 15:27:07 (GMT) From: Ronnie Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: reboot is a computer term Message:

This was just an experiment. I quoted a researcher. I supposed he meant that those who starts an experiment, learns a lot, but often has to restart the experiment. What I learned; expremies are suspicious, not very open minded and have a tendency to argue about any crap.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 21:13:34 (GMT) From: hamzen Email: None To: Ronnie Subject: Wheras Premies are Message:

loving, open minded & non-argumentative. Yeah right! Is that all ex-premies by the way?

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 22:34:11 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: Everyone Subject: I could sure hate some premies too Jim Message:

I've been reading the threads featuring x#%*! down below. Even the pseudonym he chose is an expletive. This guy oozes nastieness and aggression. He would probably blame the anger he's showing on the terrible blasphemies the exes are committing against his Lard. Poor guy's really full of doubt and the forum upsets him . It upsets the fragile peace that Maha has apparently shown him. What a jerk! Pal this and pal that. I sure am glad I'm not involved in whatever he's experiencing. Maybe he's another alter-ego of Cockney Pete? Anyway Mr unpronouncable name why are you getting so steamed up?This is an ex premie forum , you're on the wrong channel! What does it matter to you if we've given M the finger? I recommend some of Maha's Grace and peace for you. You do remember how to practice don't you? Go watch an interesting video or something. You won't do your blood pressure any good by being involved with us lost causes. Or to put things more simply . Why don't you be a nice , kind guy and FUCK OFF:

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 02:49:48 (GMT) From: Trust me Email: None To: Hal Subject: x#%*! is Nil / URL (see if he denies it!) nt Message:

nt

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 01:19:22 (GMT) From: Joey Email: None To: Hal Subject: I could sure hate some premies too Jim Message:

What a jerk! Pal this and pal that. Hal, you may want to go back and reread the thread. I'm assuming that by 'pal this and pal that', your saying that Mr Fuckbrain x#%*! was using the expression 'pal' in his posts. I just looked the thread over and unless I missed something, I couldn't find one such example. (please correct me if I'm wrong.) I know that I used the word 'pal' in two of my posts in my exchange with x#%*!, but he wasn't so kind in return, using words like 'idiot' and 'pathetic' in his posts to myself and others. IMHHO, it's usually a good idea to attribute statements to the correct person. I believe it helps avoid confusion. Other than that I agree wuth you of course. x#%*! is a jerk Actually I think he's already morphed into Mr. Blockhead :::)))

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 07:43:30 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: Joey Subject: Joey Message:

Maybe I was getting mixed up with Mr Blockhead Joey. I had had one two many glasses of red vinho as well. Sorry.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 14:02:48 (GMT) From: Joey Email: None To: Hal Subject: Hal Message:

Mr. Blockhead appeared in an altogether different thread than the one you were commenting on in your post. Yup, Hal, it may be a good idea for you to stay away from posting under the influence of 'red vinho', especially if it causes you to make mistakes like that. And for God's sake....Don't Drink and Drive, either!!:::)))

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 14:52:07 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: Joey Subject: Hal Message:

I never drink and drive Joey. I find it slops all over the steering wheel! CHEERS. Hal

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 01:13:16 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Hal Subject: Ooh, you said that nasty word Message:

Hal, Sooner or later, it gets to you, doesn't it? How come when premies come here talking all their 'love' talk, you just get this urge to tell them... FUCK OFF! I can only speak for myself. I think, for years, listening to M drone on about listening to the heart, valuing this direction, yet making no headway as a result, I've just reached my breaking point. I JUST DON'T WANT TO FUCKING HEAR IT ANYMORE!!! And anyway, if the truth be told, I never needed M to tell me that to begin with. I already knew. Somehow, M convinced me that if it wasn't for him, I never even would have known I have a heart. Well, fuck him is all I have to say. He can go fuck off too.

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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 00:44:53 (GMT) From: Remy Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Ooh, you said that nasty word Message:

Any idea what M means by heart anyway? As far as I can tell it seems to mean to listen to his crap instead of anything reasonable. Really though -- heart, emotions...'follow your heart' on a Hallmark is different than 'follow your heart' in a divorce. Vague terms...what the hell? Never explains himself, that bugs me too. Is it linked with that other vague, secret, term 'knowledge'? $$$ <--- a term I understand.

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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 01:31:07 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Remy Subject: We're just in our minds, Remy Message:

Nice post, Remy. You said very clearly how UNclear M really is. If he's nothing else, he certainly is ambiguous. At least, I've never been able to grasp what he's talking about. Must be because I'm just so much in my mind. And just what THAT means I couldn't tell you, either.

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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 20:49:14 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Jerry Subject: So only divorcees follow their minds huh? Message:

So only divorcees follow their minds huh? Ergo, quod erat demonstrandum, propter est, sub quim adagio fiddleiesiu, et al the rest of it ... ...the gist of the Maha's message is: your heart never lets you down, huh? Give that man a cigar. (And re-elect his brother) P.S. Quite what this means is open to interpretation, which is more than the Maha's claims to having BEEN God were.

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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 23:18:15 (GMT) From: Remy Email: None To: cq Subject: huh? Message:

Neither my heart or mind understand that one cq. But I'm sure your heart was really in it.

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Date: Sat, Mar 25, 2000 at 15:06:27 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Remy Subject: Felt that way. Wish my mind had been too. (nt) Message:

Felt that way. Wish my mind had been too. (nt)

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 19:39:42 (GMT) From: JB Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Sir Dave, con't up here from lower thread Message:

So, Since MY respect for you has risen quite high - I just read 'Soul Traveler' by Albert Taylor. Heard about it on the radio. Thought you might be interested - it has led to 10 other books I'll tell you about when I'm done. Hey, what the heck do you make of those 'crop drawings' or whatever. Jerry - you may answer this,too. I would like a sensible explanation - I have absolutely none. They are sure pretty - I flipped thru a whole book of pictures. They're on the internet. Probably best to go to www. artbell.com it eventually leads you to the site. Hope it was ok to bring this talk up to the top. JB

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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 00:29:38 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: JB Subject: Crop circles, some are hoaxes, some may not be Message:

See CROP CIRCLES: HOAXES OR NATURAL PHENOMENA? from Science Frontiers online. As to the idea that aliens did it, what would be their motive? It doesn't seem likely to me that aliens, even if they do visit here, would bother.

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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 02:54:12 (GMT) From: JB Email: None To: G Subject: Crop circles, some are hoaxes, some may not be Message:

G, Thank you for the info. I am truly mystified by all this. If it were just guys doing it since 1978 - doing 30 per year. Holy shit how did they travel all around - independently wealthy? And as far as aliens- why would they do it? Which I agree with...Why would humans be so dedicated to doing it,too? Humans are strange. I'd love them to demonstrate it - it would be a performance - it is art to me. Gotta go. JB

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 01:22:40 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: JB Subject: Crop circles and the Bermuda Triangle Message:

I haven't read 'Soul Traveller' JB. The crop circle season happens every year in England from about August onwards. Some of the circles are of course, hoaxes and are quite artistic renditions. But they are the copies. In other words, which came first, the genuine crop circle or the copy? Well crop circles have been a myserious phenomena for decades all over the world and it is because of this mystery that some people have cashed in and made their own. An observer who was sitting near to a not-man-made crop circle as it was forming said that he heard a hissing sound and then he saw the crop circle magically appear in front of his eyes. No alien spacecraft was seen, by the way. The crop circle formed in less than a minute. People who've examined the genuine crop circles have said that the grasses (wheat or barley is grass) were flattened in a way that could not have been flattened by normal made-made crop circle methods. The grass had flattened in a series of rosettes or mini circles and was more in line with being flattened from above by a powerful downdraft. Strange that the downdraft should form a perfect circle with clearly defined edges though. It could be a natural phenomenon but then why doesn't this effect happen in urban areas where it would be witnessed by many people? I do know that the Bermuda Triangle effect has been put down to the sudden upsurge of large amounts of methane gas from the sea bed. Such an upsurge of methane causes ships to completely lose their buoyancy and sink in a few minutes. It also causes aeroplanes to fall out of the sky when the methane hits them. Of course, this is just one of the many theories but one which I find the most plausable.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 15:24:26 (GMT) From: JB Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Did I ask the right person or what??:-) nt Message:

nt

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 14:50:06 (GMT) From: RT Email: omm To: Sir Dave Subject: Crop circles - Photo Proof. Message:

Good Day Sir Dave http://www.circlemakers.org/totc99.html ciao, RT

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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 00:26:20 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: RT Subject: Hey what about Y2K, RT? Message:

RT, You were a MAJOR doom and gloom guy on Y2K. Don't you think you should say something about your dire prognostications before we just move onto yet another strange realm?

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 17:11:19 (GMT) From: Robyn Email: None To: RT Subject: Crop circles - Photo Proof. Message:

Dear RT, Hi! How the heck are you! :) Hope all is well. I will check this site out. I have heard all of what everyone here said about crop circles. Interesting but nothing that I every really got caught up in considering. Love, Robyn

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 20:20:43 (GMT) From: RT Email: omm To: Robyn Subject: Heckel and Hide Message:

Hello Robyn I are well. You can send me words at the earlier email we used last summer. Update time! RT

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 19:48:50 (GMT) From: Mike Email: None To: JB Subject: crop circles Message:

JB: I think I saw a show, not long ago, where some the guys that did it finally confessed. Additionally, they showed how they did it and did some demos to prove it. They were using really simple tools and combining basic geometric ideas to come up with the stuff. Their 'confessions' were quite convincing, IMHO. They even showed how they snuck into and out of the fields while leaving no trace..... basic stalking techniques.... nothing fancy. To put it in perspective, I can easily slip into a wheat field and leave no trace of my having been there (with a fully loaded pack and other stuff). I could, in person, easily teach you the same techniques. So, the fact that there were supposedly no 'trails' indicating their presence is a non-starter, too. :-)

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 19:58:24 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Mike Subject: crop circles Message:

Misinformation, Mike, or possibly, disinformation. To imagine that two old duffers (the sixty-ish 'Dan and Dave') have managed to create hundreds of crop circles throughout the world certainly stretches the imagination beyond the breaking point. Even a cursory examination of the phenomena shows there's a lot more to it than that and indeed it is unexplained at this point. To put it in perspective, I can easily slip into a wheat field and leave no trace of my having been there (with a fully loaded pack and other stuff). I could, in person, easily teach you the same techniques. So, the fact that there were supposedly no 'trails' indicating their presence is a non-starter, too. :-) Actually you'd leave microscopic traces which could be found if the looker applied the right tools and techniques. But it's a skill I wouldn't mind learning...

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 20:30:15 (GMT) From: Mike Email: None To: gerry Subject: crop circles Message:

gerry: I am sure that the 'duffers' were just two of many, many more. I would agree with your conclusion of inprobability if they were the only two folks that ever could have done it. As to the microscopic techniques.... they were never applied from anything I've seen or read. By the time they 'could' have done the tests, the fields had been overrun with other folks, anyway. It wouldn't prove anything one way or the other, I'm afraid. Due to the nature of the beast (outdoors), a 'clean' field would be highly improbable, if not impossible to maintain.

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 21:16:53 (GMT) From: Runamok Email: None To: Mike Subject: What about cattle mutilation (don't read if quesy) Message:

Hey Mike. I think you're probably right about crop circles. Many have been traced to hoaxes (altho that doesn't prove all of their origins). It's always more interesting when unusual metals are supposedly found or claims of radioactivity or electromagnetism which wouldn't fit the norm for the environs. But as far as a more human-like face to a possible alien 'stalker', the mutilations have appeal- but they could be 'black bag' intelligence operations (to measure radioactivity). Thoughts? There are supposed to be thousands of these with all kinds of unique and strategically difficult scenarios (including difficult to impossible entries, what appears to be laser or hi-tech surgery, and the choice of organs which would harbor radioactivity).

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 21:54:09 (GMT) From: Mike Email: None To: Runamok Subject: What about cattle mutilation (don't read if quesy) Message:

Run: I can't explain the 'reasons' for cattle mutilations, but I can tell you that there are much easier ways to measure radioactivity than removing organs from cattle. About the only organ that specializes in 'collecting' radioactivity is the thyroid gland of humans. It collects Iodine isotopes like they were candy..... That's the reason for taking iodine in large doses BEFORE a possible Nuke attack. The regular iodine takes up the available 'space' in the thyroid, so the thyroid can't collect the isotopes. If they wanted to measure the amount of radioactivity in the thyroid, they don't have to remove it to do so. Additionally, I've never seen a report written by a laser-surgery expert. The problem with a decent surgery is that anyone other than an expert would see it as an expert job. I'd like to see what a specialist in the laser surgery field had to say about those mutilations..... In fact, I'd like to see a report written by any real surgeon. Once the experts get a view of it, I would be more inclined to believe what they said. I venture a guess that a real surgeon would see it as a hack job.... just guessing mind you. Judging from the pix that I've seen of some of those, I've done a better job of field-dressing a deer than what appeared in those pictures. But, that's just the ones that I've seen..... admittedly, not many.

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 22:07:44 (GMT) From: Runamok Email: None To: Mike Subject: What about cattle mutilation (too late if you read Message:

There are supposed to be so many of them. I remember hearing about them on the national news when a child. Well the radiation reading thing is the best explanation I've read. I don't really know what the surgery was like and it's been a long time since I have seen many articles- other claims I recall was that they were typically in proximity to military bases. Dunno, really..

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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 00:54:33 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Runamok Subject: cattle mutilations - a more mundane explanation, Message:

at least for a lot of them. See CATTLE MUTILATIONS CALLED EPISODE OF COLLECTIVE DELUSION

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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 05:22:15 (GMT) From: Runamok Email: None To: G Subject: cattle mutilations - a more mundane explanation, Message:

This stuff was on Cronkite circa '67, just so you know. I think it is more established than this 77 article makes it out to be. While a natural explanation might be plausible, mass hysteria doesn't seem mundane at all.. but this article was based several vet's reports. Not much data.

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 16:50:48 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Everyone Subject: David Icke --have a listen--make up your own mind Message:

http://broadcast.com/shows/endoftheline/00archives.html Click on March 21 show and check it out for yourself. The topic is mostly Canada, anti-semetism, freedom, and the loss of freedom. One tip: You can skip most commercials by moving the slider on RealPlayer forward 5 minutes at the quarter hour breaks and 10 minutes at the top of the hour commercial and news breaks. I like to listen while doing the domestics :-) Gerry the kept man

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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 16:21:20 (GMT) From: Jim -- ICKE DEFENDS HIMSE Email: None To: gerry Subject: ELF (warning: Very, very funny!) Message:

This is a letter from Canada's Green Party which Icke has proudly annotated with his own hilarious comments. The real joke -- the very DISTURBING joke to the extent that anyone takes this madman seriously -- is in what he doesn't dispute. Note, as well, how in true paranoid nutbar-style his only real response is to try to find out who the Green party 'really' is. Let me guess? Illuminati hacks? Aliens? SO WHO ARE THESE 'GREENS'? CAN YOU HELP? by David Icke The Canadian “Green” Party were at the heart of the campaign to stop me speaking in Canada in October where they distributed hate propaganda against me and caused many venues to cancel my events on the strength of what these “Greens” told them. They used the tried and trusted...or tired and busted...accusation that I am anti-Jewish. Yawn, yawn, yawn. They also say I am connected to “far right” groups on the basis of a stream of lies written by two people in England called Matthew Kalman and John Murray, both of whom have an enormous amount of growing up to do. Anyone who has heard me talk (these Greens have not) or read my books will know that I am EXPOSING the far-right fascist mentality, not promoting it. It is to prevent a global fascist state that I am doing all this. But the Canadian Greens, and their mirror image in the United Kingdom, have never let the truth spoil a good story. Not content with distributing unbelievable disinformation in Canada in the hope of preventing me from speaking (I thought “Greens” believed in free speech), the Canadian “Greens” are now seeking to do the same in Australia and the United Kingdom. They have sent a letter full of lies to the venue I am speaking at in Birmingham and given the Australian Green Party the same disinformation and lies that they spread in Canada. The question is, therefore, who are these people? Why are they so vehemently seeking to stop one man having a platform to speak anywhere in the world? I’ll come to that in a second, but first here is the letter they are sending to venues with my comments in [brackets]: ----------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sir/Madam, We are writing to you to express our concern about an individual [too right I am] named David Icke who is advertised as speaking at your venue on the evening of Tuesday, December 14th, 1999 from 7-11 in the evening. We are afraid that you may be unaware that David Icke promotes a brand of anti-semitic, paranoid conspiracy theory that alleges that a Jewish elite and the Freemasons, in conjunction with most world leaders and faiths are engaged in a plot to create a so-called “one world government” that will enslave the inhabitants of the Earth. [My God where do I start? I do NOT say it is a Jewish plot, in fact I emphasise that it is not. And The Truth Shall Set You Free was funded into publication by a Jewish friend of mine. And how much research have these people done into the evidence of the New World Order? None. Another point. Why are these “Greens” seeking to deny a public platform to someone who is communicating information that they don’t agree with? And they call me fascist!!] In David Icke’s recent most recent 1999 book, “The Biggest Secret”, Icke repeats his previous allegations of a grand conspiracy between this supposed Jewish elite [not true]and the Freemasons to control the world based on his belief in the historical forgery, the Protocols of the Elders of Zion [not true, it is based on a staggering amount of cross-referenced information from endless sources all over the world..information that these guys simply do not want to see]. In addition to now claiming the leaders of both these groups are decended from extraterrestrial lizards [a stunning and sweeping generalisation that such people specialise in], Icke repeats the tired allegations that this supposed cabal of Jews were responsible for the Russian Revolution, World War 1, World War 11, funding the rise to power of Adolf Hitler, the ensuing Holocaust and all manner of other nefarious events. [Utter claptrap, and why would I spend so much time exposing the truth about the Nazis if I am a fascist? What I say is that the Illuminati, including the House of Rothschild, were the manipulators of these events. When it passes through these “Greens”, it becomes “the Jews”. Are they anti-semitic or something??] He accuses them and their alleged allies (including Tony Blair, Edward Heath, Harold Wilson, Bill and Hillary Clinton, George Bush Sr and Jr, Pope John Paul, the British Monarchy, Canadian former Prime Ministers Pierre Trudeau and Brian Mulroney, and others) of being extensively involved in Satanism and the murder and sexual abuse of children. [Note that all the names they list there are NOT Jewish!! And how staggering that they are more concerned with preventing me having a platform to present the evidence than seeking to establish if children are indeed being tortured and abused in this way - the evidence for which is simply fantastic now. God help the children if these “Greens” get their way. And isn’t it rather strange that an alleged “fascist” and “racist” should be so concerned at the treatment of children of ALL races?] Icke alleges that Israel and the Jewish faith are the fabrications of this cabal with the intent of furthering hatred and discord between the peoples of the world and that the Prophet Mohammed of the Islamic faith was a “stooge” of this group. [Crikey, I am anti-Jewish and anti-Arab now. There’s a first. What I say is that ALL religions were created to control and to divide and rule, and I consentrate mostly on Christianity, but these “Greens” highlight the Jewish religion because they believe that is most likely to ensure their goal of stopping me having a platform to speak.] During David Icke’s recent tour of our province, Ontario, Canada, various Hate Police Crimes Units monitored his presentations... [One unit did and that was because of the allegations about me made to them by these very same “Greens” and the Canadian Jewish Congress, who distributed the same fantastic disinformation - (see links below to other articles on this website.) This Hate Police Unit cleared me of all allegations - as they did the last time I was in Canada when the the same propaganda was spread. Funny how they failed to mention that.] ...and six different venues here in Ontario, Canada, cancelled the rental of their facilities to the organizers of David Icke’s speaking tour upon finding out the hateful nature of his conspiracy theories. [No they didn’t. They cancelled upon receiving this very same disinformation from the Canadian “Greens” that you are reading here. These venue operators never read my books, never watched my tapes, they just read what these people sent to them and cancelled on that basis. The organisers of the Birmingham event had the intelligence and decency to read The Biggest Secret after receiving this letter and as a result they read for themselves what nonsense is being fed to them by these people. The Birmingham event is therefore going ahead, as indeed the events would have done in Canada had the venue operators not been such jellies and sheep. It is possible to be both!!] In the Ottawa-Hull region, the organizations who refused the use of their spaces [based on lies sent to them by the Canadian Greens etc.] included the Ottawa Congress Centre, the French Public School Board of Eastern Ontario, Hull City Hall and the order of nuns involved in running the Bronson Centre and in Windsor, Ontario, the Windsor Casino and the city-owned Cleay Conference Centre. [You can almost see the gloating that they managed to prevent another human being from speaking his truth. And the order of nuns cancelled the meeting, not because I was “anti-semitic”, but because I questioned the literal existence of Jesus. So now I am anti-Jewish, anti-Christian, and anti-Muslim. God, I’ll soon have the full set.] In addition, Immigration Canada detained David Icke several times both because of the hateful content of his writings and because he did not have proper work authoriztion in Canada and was thus working illegally at the venues in which he holds his money-making seminars. [Immigration officials did not detain me because of “hateful” writings. I was detained by customs who, working on information provided by the Canadian “Greens” etc., kept me at the airport until 2am in the morning searching my bags for “hate” propaganda. They found nothing because there is never anything to find. The embarrassed customs man who could see from what he found that my motivation is love not hate, said I was free to go. Immigration stopped me on a technicality which an immigration lawyer said publicly was completely without foundation. And isn’t good to know that the Greens are just another establishment party who support the official line? So now we know.] On behalf of the Green Party of Canada, we hope that given this information, your facility will reconsider whether you wish to host David Icke and his followers as guests at the Birmingham and Midland Institute [They did and they read my books and they now know you are communicating disinformation]. If you have any questions about this matter or desire further information, please do not hestitate to contact us. Sincerely [oh really], Richard Warman ----------------------------------------------------------------- Well, yes, actually I do have a question or two. Are these Canadian “Greens” simply uninformed idiots? Or is there more to this vehement campaign to deny someone a public platform so people cannot have the freedom to make up their own minds? It is quite possible that, even though they operate from one of the Illuminati’s global strongholds in Eastern Canada, they are, indeed, just uninformed idiots. Or is there more to this? Can anyone give me further information about the following people and the Canadian Green Party in general? And if you wish to let them know that they will not be left unchallenged to continue their fascist behaviour. These are their contact addresses and numbers:

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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 16:33:31 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Jim -- ICKE DEFENDS HIMSE Subject: TAKE A CLOSE LOOK AT A MADNESS Message:

GIZA PYRAMIDS CLOSED TO PUBLIC FOR 36 HOURS DURING MILLENNIUM RITUALS! by David Icke ----------------------------------------------------------------- The following press article is designed to ridicule the idea of Illuminati rituals at Giza over the Millennium when a golden capstone will be placed on the top of the Great Pyramid. This, of course, is massive Illuminati symbolism going back to ancient times. The article actually does exactly the opposite of what it is attended to achieve, as you will see: My comments are in all caps... EGYPT WARY OF PROPHETS OF DOOM AT MILLENNIUM CELEBRATIONS GIZA, Egypt, Nov 16 (AFP) - Egypt is on guard against 'pyramidiots' preaching millennium conspiracy theories on the Internet, with officials warning zero tolerance if they descend on the Giza Pyramids expecting Satan to appear as 2000 dawns. At least two spiritual tour operators are advertising millennium trips to the pyramids, billing guest speakers such as David Icke, the former British television sportscaster-turned-prophet of doom. Icke and others are warning that ex-US president George Bush will summon oppressive evil forces at a black mass in a dank stone burial chamber deep inside the great Cheops pyramid at midnight on December 31. {NOT WHAT I SAID} According to his website, Bush and the British royal family are key members of the world 'Illuminati elite' of human-reptile hybrids whose rituals are designed to tap into fourth dimensional energy forces and deprive ordinary human mortals of their consciousness. But the Egyptian government's custodian of the Giza pyramids, Zahi Hawass, said he has no time for the 'pyramidiots' and warned they would be 'dismissed' if they cause any trouble at the end of the millennium. {BY CAUSING TROUBLE HE MEANS GOING WHERE THEY MIGHT SEE SOMETHING THEY SHOULD NOT SEE. WOULD I BUY A USED CAR FROM ZAHI HAWASS? NOT EVEN A NEW ONE STRAIGHT FROM THE FACTORY, ACTUALLY.} 'All this is hallucination. We'll never permit anyone to insult the pyramids,' Hawass said. 'They're sacred and divine and I'm going to keep them sacred and divine.' {YEH, RIGHT...WELL START BY CLEANING UP THE UNBELIEVABLE MOUNTAIN OF TRASH ALL OVER THE SITE, THEN. THE WAY THE GIZA SITE IS TREATED UNDER THIS GUY'S CONTROL IS A DISGRACE.} The whole Giza plateau, including all three pyramids and the Sphinx, will be closed 'for security' reasons for about 36 hours, from the evening of December 30, 1999 until after dawn on January 1, 2000, he said. {WHAT A CO-INCIDENCE.. THE NEED FOR SECURITY COULD NOT JUST BE AN EXCUSE FOR CLEARING THE SITE AT PRECISELY THE TIME THE RITUALS ARE GOING TO HAPPEN, THEN? FUNNY, SOME OF THE GREATEST EXAMPLES OF RITUAL ABUSE, MIND CONTROL, AND THE SUPPRESSION OF TRUTH IS DONE UNDER THE GUISE OF 'NATIONAL SECURITY'. THIS IS YET ANOTHER PATHETIC EXAMPLE. HALF AN HOUR BEFORE A PREDICTED RITUAL IN THE GREAT PYRAMID AT THE TIME OF THE SOLAR ECLIPSE IN AUGUST, THE PUBLIC WERE HURRIEDLY CLEARED OUT. I KNOW, I WAS THERE! A GOPHER FOR HAWASS, CALLED AMARGI HILLIER, PUT OUT ON THE INTERNET THAT HE WENT INTO THE GREAT PYRAMID JUST BEFORE THE ECLIPSE AND WAS IN THERE THROUGHOUT, SO PROVING THAT NO RITUALS TOOK PLACE. THAT WAS A BLATANT LIE BECAUSE MYSELF AND OTHER WITNESS SAT AT THE ENTRANCE TO THE PYRAMID FOR TWO HOURS BEFORE THE ECLIPSE AND NO-ONE WENT IN. WHY WOULD AMARGI LIE SO BLATANTLY IF THERE WAS NOTHING TO HIDE?} Police presence will be stepped up both at the pyramids and in the nearby desert where 50,000 party-goers will be channelled into an all-night, end-of-year spectacle starring multimedia artist Jean-Michel Jarre. Although Egyptian security forces are mainly concerned about threats from Islamic militants, they will also be keeping a watchful eye out for fringe groups around the Giza trio. {NOTE THE USE OF THE ALL ENCOMPASSING PUT-DOWN OF 'FRINGE GROUPS'. WHAT IT MEANS IS... GROUPS THAT CHALLENGE THE OFFICIAL STORY WE ARE SUPPOSED TO BELIEVE.. PEOPLE WHO DON'T BLINDLY TAKE WHAT THEY ARE TOLD AND ASK NO QUESTIONS OR RESEARCH BEHIND THE VEILS OF SECRECY. THE WRITER IS A RATHER STUNNING EXAMPLE OF THE BELIEVE-WHAT-THEY-SAY MENTALITY THAT KEEPS SO MUCH KNOWLEDGE FROM THE PEOPLE}. But Hawass' plans to restrict access look set only to stoke the fires of pre-millennial hysteria as conspiracy theorists like reputable new age authors and Christian authors, like Texe Marrs, who alleges that the custodian is in on the plot with the black priests. Not even the clean-cut Frenchman's electronic opera remains untainted after the Egyptian press started weaving its own strands in the tangled web of millenarian occult hype last month. {WHAT DOES CLEAN-CUT MEAN IN THIS CONTEXT AND HOW DO THEY KNOW, ANYWAY?} The notorious {ANYONE WHO QUESTIONS THE OFFICIAL LINE IS ALWAYS NOTORIOUS!} bi-weekly newspaper Al-Shaab, whose editor-in-chief was imprisoned in August for libelling a government minister, has accused Jarre of conspiring to impose 'Zionist Freemasonry' on Egyptian civilisation. Party-goers attending Jarre's multimedia show will watch giant images of the Pharaonic Eye of Horus {THE GREAT ILLUMINATI SYMBOL} projected on the sides of the Giza pyramids and a light-emitting golden pyramid will be lowered by helicopter onto Cheops. Al-Shaab, along with numerous doomsday Internet sites {EXPOSING HORROR IS ALWAYS 'DOOMSDAY'}, was quick to identify the images with what they call the 'Masonic symbolism' depicted on the US one-dollar bill which shows an eye glowing from the capstone of a pyramid. Hawass defended topping Giza's largest pyramid, saying it was designed to replicate the practices of the ancient Egyptians who he says crowned their pyramids with a golden capstone to celebrate their completion. {EXACTLY, THE COMPLETION OF THOUSANDS OF YEARS OF MANIPULATION AND SYMBOLISING THE FINAL STAGE OF THE TAKEOVER OF PLANET EARTH BY THE ILLUMINATI AND THE FOURTH DIMENSION REPTILIANS WHICH, IN FACT, ARE THE ILLUMINATI.} 'If the Masons want to take our symbols, what can we do?' he asked. Texe Marrs, a retired US Air Force officer, meanwhile suggests on his website that Jarre's concert, which will be staged in the desert around half a mile {about a kilometre} away from the pyramids themselves, is a diversion for the Illuminati rituals of 'consummate evil.' {IN FACT I WOULD SUGGEST IT IS A KEY PART OF THE EVENT BECAUSE THE RITUALS IN AND BELOW THE PYRAMIDS AT THE MILLENNIUM WILL DRAW ON THE ENERGY OF ALL THOSE THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE - THAT'S WHY THEY HAVE BEEN LURED THERE ON THE PRETEXT OF JARRE'S 'SHOW.'} 'The grotesque ceremony, these men believe, will culminate in a visit by their glowing Masonic god of light and magic, Lucifer himself, at exactly the stroke of midnight, December 31, 1999,' he writes. And if you're wondering what the pyramids have to do with the Christian calendar, the prophets of doom are always ready with an answer. {UNVEILING THE HORRORS OF THE ILLUMINATI MAKES YOU A PROPHET OF DOOM - REPEATING THE 'OFFICIAL LINE' MAKES THE WRITER A PROPHET OF LOVE AND LIGHT, I TAKE IT.} Icke, for example, who plans to be at the pyramids with a Zulu shaman on December 31, says the Gregorian calendar was 'created' by the Illuminati so New Year 2000 would coincide with a peak of mind-bending solar energy. Others, such as Arizona Wilder, who claims to be a former human sacrificer for the Illuminati, would argue that Christianity is an extension of ancient Egyptian mythology and that the year 2000 will usher in the 'Age of Horus.' {AND WHAT IS THE KEY PART OF JARRE'S SHOW? AS THE WRITER SAYS - - - THE EYE OF HORUS!} ISN'T IT SO COMFORTING TO KNOW THAT JOURNALISTS ARE SUCH INTELLIGENT, QUESTIONING, PEOPLE? WHAT WOULD WE DO WITHOUT THEM?

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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 16:42:08 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: A Concise Description of the Illuminati Message:

A Concise Description of the Illuminati by David Icke The Illuminati, the clique which control the direction of the world, are genetic hybrids, the result of interbreeding between a reptilian extraterrestrial race and humanity many thousands of years ago. The centre of power is not even in this dimension -- it is in the lower fourth dimension, the lower astral as many people call it, the traditional home for the 'demons' of folklore and myth. These fourth-dimensional reptilian entities work through these hybrid bloodlines because they have a vibrational compatibility with each other. This is why the European royal and aristocratic families have interbred so obsessively, as do the so-called Eastern Establishment families of the United States, which produce the leaders of America. Every presidential election since and including George Washington in 1789 has been won by the candidate with the most European royal genes. Of the 42 presidents to Bill Clinton, 33 have been genetically related to two people, Alfred the Great, King of England, and Charlemagne, the most famous monarch of what we now call France. It is the same wherever you look in the positions of power... they are the same tribe! As well as an obsession with interbreeding with each other to preserve their genetic structure, the Illuminati are also obsessed with symbolism and ritual. Interestingly, conventional science has documented that the reptilian part of the human brain (the R-complex as they call it) is the source of the following behavior traits: An obsession with ritual, cold blooded behavior, territorialism 'this belongs to me', and an obsession with top-down hierarchical structures. This sums up the Illuminati mentality perfectly, and it goes that if you have more of that R-complex, or that it is activated more than normal, you will manifest these traits far more profoundly. But their ritual is not just for ceremonial purposes or gratuitous horror. The rituals are designed to rewire the energy fields and grids of the planet and therefore to fundamentally affect human consciousness. The rituals these bloodlines performed in the ancient world are the same as they do now. See The Biggest Secret for the background. They have a detailed annual calendar of events on which they perform their sacrifice rituals in line with key lunar, solar, and planetary cycles to harness that energy for their sick agenda to take complete control of Planet Earth in the very near future.

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 17:34:36 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: gerry Subject: I listened -- he's a complete fruitcake Message:

classic paranoid nut

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 17:53:41 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: I listened -- he's a complete fruitcake Message:

How could you have listened? I'm still listening to it for the first time. What exactly do you object to? How is he a 'classic paranoid nut?' What are your qualifications for saying so? Jim this appears to be a 'classic' ad hominem (sp) attack and an attempt at creating a prejudice (pre-judgement) in other people's minds. He has some interesting things to say about Africa and also, US politics later in the show.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 00:15:47 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: gerry Subject: No, silly, it's not at all 'ad hominem' Message:

My judgment of Icke is entirely based on the substance of what he says. There's nothing the lease ad hominem about it. In other words, I'm not attacking him just because he's English and, 'as we all know' the English are in no position to explain the Illuminati's to us. That would be ad hominem. I'm just saying the guy's nuts because, as is abundantly clear in this interview, he can't think straight. For example, in the first part of the interview he talks about the 'highly suspicious' fact that they opened up a whole new desk to deal with him at Canada Immigration when he was coming through customs at Vancouver. As far as Icke's concerned htat just didn't make sense seeing that the other lines weren't, in his opinion, all that long. Why open a new line for him (and then the implied suggestion .... 'well, the Illuminati made them do it, of course!)? Yeah, the guy's nuts alright. He has no idea how to properly rank causation explanations according to likelihood. And, of course, that one little blindspot is all it takes to send one far, far off on some pretty wild tangents. Icke also suffers from the other classic bad-thinking problem of conspiracy nuts: he's entirely immune to criticism. If someone disagrees with him it's simply more proof of the widespread effect of the Illuminati brainwashing. The guy reminds me of the nutbar that was my mother's first husband, some goof she was married to for about a year before she ran away, after much planning, over a corned-beef sandwich in some New York deli. This guy ran into her decades later in Toronto and gave her a copy of the book he had published (privately, of course). It's called The Manipulators and boy is it funny! The guy goes on and on about how 'the manipulators' have infiltrated every segment of our society, our brain waves, the whole thing. Yet you look closely for a description of just who 'the manipulators' are and nothing pops up. That is until you get to the middle of the book where he explains that the manipulators are really aliens who have rocketed their UFO's down to our ocean floors and set up some sort of manipulating base camps. Now here's the kicker: the proof that they're aliens and all is that 'obviously' only an advanced species with technology far greater than anything we've got could fly in past out radar and such and establish these base camps undetected. Yeah, right! No proof becomes the perfect proof. Give me a break. So Icke makes a point of finding some interesting semi-facts or false-facts to play with. And he knits them together into an entertaining web of fanciful interconnectedness. The truth is the guy is wrong about a lot of his facts and almost all of their implications. He jumps like crazy because, as we know, he's not bound by normal 'brainwashed' thought processes. He's nuts, Gerry. And no, I'm not brainwashed.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 04:08:12 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: No, silly, it's not at all 'ad hominem' Message:

Jim, you may well be brainwashed. You've certainly exhibited a propensity for just that. Yes this is indeed an ad hominen attack on Icke. Your story about this other person and their book is irrelevant and a distraction. Who cares what this guy wrote or said. He is not the issue. (I object, your honor...) And for god's sake Jim, they detained Icke at the airport for thirteen hours. You'd get a little paranoid too, I think especially given the history of oppostion he's experienced. Why do say he's immune to criticism? He's certainly has had his share and has born up quite well under a well organized and orchestrated attempt to limit his free speech and the exchange of his ideas.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 07:41:00 (GMT) From: ham Email: None To: gerry Subject: Gerry the guy has been hanging out with some Message:

pretty fundamentalist right wing verging on nazi groups recently, god I'm no lover of the US government but.... Don't forget he also was proclaiming himself the son-of-god for over a year in the early nineties.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 15:48:57 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: ham Subject: Aren't we all 'Sons of God?' Message:

Just kidding. I didn't know about that. I'll check it out for myself as the media version is bound to be a huge distortion. As far as fundamentalist/neo-nazi groups, which ones? I didn't hear about that either and I've been checking into his story a bit lately and haven't run across that. Perhaps it's a rumor designed to malign the guy? Can you point me to it? Of course I take his information with a huge grain of salt. He is great fun to listen to, is well spoken and passionate and is probably on the right track on some things. I mean, clearly, Bush is a shape shifting Reptoid. That's a given. Jeez, I believe everyone is right is some ways (well most everyone, one particular guru comes to mind who I must, for personal reason exempt from this 'rule'.) It doesn't mean swallowing his whole speil hook line and sinker. I didn't do that even for the gooroo trip.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 21:48:22 (GMT) From: ham Email: None To: gerry Subject: Ickey rules ok! Message:

Funnily enough gerry I've got a soft spot for Ickey. He used to present sports programmes on British TV, for a fdair while till he got involved in the green movement. He very quickly became a media spokesperson for the Green Party which I was getting involved with at the time. The Green purists were very anti his quick rise to prominence. Within a couple of years, and just after the Greens had got 15% in the 88 or 89 Euro elections in Britain he had a ahemm, how can I put it, a vision. He was certain he was Jesus. He was possibly in the clutches of this new age woman, difficult to tell. Anyway she was touring with Icke and his wife, all the while Icke proclaiming their 'friendship' was purer than the driven snow. About a year later he recanted, admitted he'd had intense spiritual experiences that had distorted his reality model & that he'd been shagging the woman. This was 91-92. He's been pretty 'stable' & on the same route since, mixture of green conspiracy theorist and new age spirituality. The stuff I read about some of his contacts was in the least mainstream media you can find, the Alternative Green press. He wasn't part of the groups but for obvious reasons his message goeas down VERY well with new age right wing anti-semitic groups, and he's not too choosy about who he eats with. He has also made a lot of dosh from this stuff. Mind you the green press is not too happy with him since they've never got more than 3% in nationwide elections since. He still gets given a lot of slack, much more than others who have screwed up the green message. He's quite charming & disarmingly open & honest about himself, right out of the cheeky chappy school. Much more humble than thje slug, but then who isn't! In Britain he is seen as a complete fruitcake by the general public, but affectionately so, but like a lot of new age/green mixed people, he's very naive and very dangerous because of that.

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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 16:47:59 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: ham Subject: Yes, read 'The Biggest Secret'! Message:

The Biggest Secret by David Icke excerpts from the book ~ 'The Biggest Secret' ----------------------------------------------------------------- In summary, a race of interbreeding bloodlines, a race within a race in fact, were centred in the Middle and Near East in the ancient world and , over the thousands of years since, have expanded their powers accross the globe. A crucial aspect of this has been to create a network of my stery schools and secret societies to covertly introduce their agenda while, at the same time, creating institutions like religions to mentally and emotionally imprison the masses and set them at war with each other. The heirarchy of this tribe of bloodlines is not exclusively male and some of its key positions are held by women. But in terms of numbers it is overwhelmingly male and I will therefore refer to this group as the Brotherhood. Even more accurately, given the importance of ancient Babylon to this story, I will also call it the Babylonian Brotherhood. The plan they term their 'Great Work of Ages', I will call the Brotherhood agenda. ----------------------------------------------------------------- I will refer to the clay tablets, therefore as the Sumerian texts or tablets. They are one of the greatest historical finds imaginable and yet 150 years after they were discovered they are still ignored by conventional history and education. Why? Because they demolish the official version of events.... according to (Zecharia Sitchen) the texts say that the Sumerian civilisation... was a 'gift from the gods'. Not mythical gods, but physical ones who lived among the. The tablets call these gods the AN.UNNAK.KI (Those from Heaven to Earth came), and DIN.GIR (The Righteous Ones of the Blazing Rockets). The ancient text known as the book of Enoch also calls the gods the 'Watchers', as did the Egyptians. The egyptian name for their Gods, the Neteru, lierally translates as Watchers and they said that their gods came in heavenly boats. ----------------------------------------------------------------- According to Zecharia Sitchin, the tablets describe how the Anunnaki came from a planet called Nibiru (The Planet of the Crossing)... during the early formation of the solar system, Nibiru caused the near destruction of a planet that once existed between Jupiter and Mars. The Sumerians called it Tiamet, a planet they nicknamed the Watery Monster. They say that it was debris from Tiamet's collision with a Nubiru moon which created the Great Band Bracelet - the asteroid belt which is found between Mars and Jupiter. What remained of Tiamet was thrown into another orbit, the text says, and eventually became the Earth. The Sumerian name for the Earth means Cleaved one because a vast hole was created , they say, by the collision. Interestingly if you take away the water in the Pacific Ocean you will be left with a gigantic hole. ----------------------------------------------------------------- The more I weave together incredible amounts of information, the more it seems to me that we are talking of two distinct situations running side by side. There were other extraterrestrial races at large on the Earth, and still are, as well as the extraterrestrial race which the Sumerians called the Anunnaki and other ancient texts called the serpant race...In their physical expression, the Anunnaki are one of the many inner-Earth races which live underground in the ernormous catacombs, caverns and tunnels below the surface. A Hopi Indian legend says that a very ancient tunnel complex exists under Los Angeles and this, they say, was occupied by a 'lizzard' race some 5,000 years ago. In 1933 G. Warren Shufelt, an LA mining engineer, claimed to have found it. Today, it is said, some malevolent Freemasonic rituals are held in this tunnel complex. There has been a massive cover up by the authorities of the existence of thses subterranean races and where they live. In 1909 a subterranean city which was built with the presicion of the the 'Great Pyramid was found by G. E. Hincaid near the Grand Canyon in Arizona. It was big enough to accomidate 50,000 people and mumified bodies found were of oriental or possibly Egyptian origin, according to the expedition leader Professor S. A. Jordan. ----------------------------------------------------------------- My own resaerch suggests that it is from another dimension, the lower fourth dimension, that the reptilian control and manipulation is primarily orchestrated. Without understanding the multidimensional nature of life and the universe, it is impossible to follow the manipulation of the Earth by a non-human force. As open minded scientists are now confirming, Creation consists of an infinate number of frequencies or dimensions of life sharing the same space in the same way that radio and television frequencies do. At the moment you are tuned to the three-dimensional world or third dimension and so that is what you perceive as your reality.... It is from one of these other stations or dimensions, that the Serpent Race, the Anunnaki, is controlling this world by 'possessing' certain bloodline streams... Other people know this as the lower astral dimension, the legendary home of demons and malevolent antities in their black magic rituals.... Then there are the experiences of Cathy O'Brian, the mind controlled slave of the United States Government for more than 25 years, which she details in her astonishing book, Trance ormation Of America, written with Mark Phillips. She was sexually abused as a child and an adult by a stream of famous people named in her book. Among them wrer the US Presidents, Gerald Ford, Bill Clinton and most appalingly, George Bush, a major player in the brotherhood, as my books and others have long exposed. It was Bush a paedophile and serial killer, who regularly abused and raped Cathy's daughter, Kelly O' Brian, as a toddler before her mother's courageous exposure of these staggering events forced the authorities to remove Kelly from the mind control program known as Project Monarch. Cathy writes in Trance Formation of America of how George Bush was sitting in front of her in his office in Washington DC when he opened up,a book at a page depicting 'lizard-like aliens from a far off, deep space place'. Bush then claimed to be an 'alian' himself and appeared, before her eyes, to transform 'like chameleon' into a reptile.... I know other people who have seen George Bush shape-shift into a reptilian. ----------------------------------------------------------------- At the start of the (coronation) ceremony in 1953, the Queen sat on the Coronation Chair and under her bum was the Stone of Destiny which Edward I had stolen from Scone (pronounced 'scoon') Abby in 1246. The stone was supposed to have been brought from Ireland from Israel via Egypt and is also known as Jacob's Pillar or Pillow.... Th oil at the Queen's coronation was the same mixture as that used in the ancient Middle East. It was carried in a gold vessel called the Ampulla made in the form of a... dove... The anointing at the Corenation is supposed to elevate the monarch to the rank of High Priest, in this case, appropriately, High Priestess of the Church of England as well as head of state.... ----------------------------------------------------------------- Today there is an added challenge for would be assasins and assasination plots with the 'traffic' cameras that are located all over cities.. It would have been impossible to keep secret the methods and personnel used to kill Diana if the whole thing was being videoed. But when you are the brotherhood with connections at the highest levels in politics, police and intelligence agencies, the traffioc cameras are no such problem. You simply turn then off! There are 17 traffic cameras on the route between the Ritze and the Pont de L'Alma, including those inside the tunnel itself... Never before in Paris had the whole system malfunctioned at the same time and the police refuse to explain what happened.... suddenly, at 12:20am, all the lines went down. 'There was a radio blackout. It lasted for 20 mins and then... there was a mass of radio traffic as people all wanted to talk at once'... Another official excuse for the delay isthat the emergency doctors had to give her a blood transfusion. This is another lie, lie, lie. SAMU teams do not carry blood transfusion equipment because they would not know the victim's blood type. When the ambulance did leave the tunnel, the driver was ordered to go no faster than 25 miles an hour....when Diana arrived... Professor Alain Pavie, a chest and heart specialist, and Professor Pierre Benazet, another experienced surgeon...we are told... opened Diana's chest cavity, repaired the vein, and 'battled to save her' for an hour and a half before admititng defeat. I find this remarkable, also, because the autopsy report apparently shows that Diana was clinically dead at 12:45am while still lying in the tunnel... Petal says that he was overtaken by athe Mercedes... He said 'he wa s at the scene for about a minute before climbing back on his bike to ring the police. He told them that Diana had been in an accident, but they layghed and told him to stop wasting their time. In despair at this, he rode to the police atation in Avenue Mozart. His lawyer, Antoine Deguines, says that Petal was kept waiting for 25 minutes and taken into a backroom where he was handcuffed. For reporting an 'accident'... whilst researching this book I was introduced to Christine Fitzgerald, a brilliant and gifted healer, who was a close friend and confidant of Diane for nine years... Diane was able to talk to her about matters she would not dare share with anyone else for fear of being dubbed crazy. It is clear that Diana knew about the true nature of the royal family's genetic history and the reptilian control. Her nicknames for the Windsors were the 'lizards' and the 'reptiles' and she used to say in all seriousness: 'They're not human'...The brotherhood obsession with Scotland, she said, was because thereare many entrances their into inner-Earth where the physical reptiles live... She said that during the sacrificial rituals the Queen wears a cloak of gold fabric inlaid with rubies and black onyx. The Queen and Charles have their own ritual goblets, inlaid with pecious stones signifying their Illuminati-Brotherhood rank. The Mother Godess says that that queen makes cruel remarks about lesser initiates, but is afraid of a man code-named 'Pindar' (The Marquis de Libeaux) who is higher in the Satanic heirarchy. -----------------------------------------------------------------

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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 15:51:20 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: ham Subject: Ickey rules ok! Message:

What a thoughtful and informative response! And a delight to read. I love first hand info. Thanks, Ham.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 04:59:10 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: gerry Subject: No, Gerry, you're wrong Message:

Gerry, First, you should look up ad hominem. Attacking Icke for the things he says hardly that or logically fallacious in any other way. My story about the book is what's called an analogy. Sorry, didn't mean to confuse. Icke's dangerous if for no other reason than he's a carrier for the bizarre anti-semitic hoax called The Protocols of Zion. Here's how the jewish Anti-Defamation League describes this lovely document: The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion: A Hoax of Hate 1 - Introduction It is a classic in paranoid, racist literature. Taken by the gullible as the confidential minutes of a Jewish conclave convened in the last years of the nineteenth century, it has been heralded by anti-Semites as proof that Jews are plotting to take over the world. Since its contrivance around the turn of the century by the Russian Okhrana, or Czarist secret police, 'The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion' has taken root in bigoted, frightened minds around the world. The booklet’s twenty-four sections spell out the alleged secret plans of Jewish leaders seeking to attain world domination. They represent the most notorious political forgery of modern times. Although thoroughly discredited, the document is still being used to stir up anti-Semitic hatred. Origins of the Protocols Serge Nilus, a little-known Czarist official in Moscow, edited several editions of the Protocols, each with a different account of how he discovered the document. In his 1911 edition Nilus claimed that his source had stolen the document from (a non-existent) Zionist headquarters in France. Other 'editors' of the Protocols maintained that the document was read at the First Zionist Congress held in 1897 in Basel, Switzerland. Note: According to reputable scholars, including Prof. Norman Cohn in his noted book, Warrant for Genocide, the world-control myth was actually lifted from a 19th century French politcal satire in which the alleged plotters weren’t even Jewish. The Hoax Spreads Impact of the Bolshevik Revolution After the Russian Revolution in 1917, frustrated supporters of the ousted Czar rescued the document from obscurity in order to discredit the Bolsheviks. The emigre Czarists portrayed the Revolution as part of a Jewish plot to enslave the world, and pointed to the Protocols as the blueprint of that plan. The scheme of yoking the Protocols to the Bolshevik Revolution not only led to the allegation of a Judeo-Communist conspiracy, but promoted the forgery internationally. In later years, vicious Soviet anti-Semitic propaganda under Stalin and others echoed the conspiracy mythology of the Protocols. International Publicity In the 1920’s, two British correspondents, Robert Wilton of the London Times and Victor Marsden of the Morning Post, each of whom had lived in pre-Communist Russia, .promoted the idea of a Jewish conspiracy in Great Britain. Eighteen articles on the subject of a Jewish conspiracy as well as on the 'Protocols' themselves were published in the Morning Post. Marsden translated the Protocols into English and in his introduction to the document asserted: . . . the Jews are carrying it out with steadfast purpose, creating wars and revolutions, . . .to destroy the white Gentile race, that the Jews may seize the power during the resulting chaos and rule with their claimed superior intelligence over the remaining races of the world, as kings over slaves.' A Polish language edition of the Protocols appeared in 1920. The following year the Arabs of Palestine and Syria used the Protocols to stir up resentment against Jewish settlers in Palestine, suggesting that the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine would further advance the 'international Jewish conspiracy.' This propaganda tactic persists in the contemporary Middle East; Arabic editions of the Protocols have been widely circulated by official Saudi sources, among others. American Debut The Protocols were publicized in America by Boris Brasol, a former Czarist prosecutor. Auto magnate Henry Ford was one of those who responded to Brasol’s conspiratorial fantasies. 'The Dearborn Independent,' owned by Ford, published an American version of the Protocols between May and September of 1920 in a series called ‘The International Jew: the World’s Foremost Problem.' The articles were later republished in book form with half a million copies in circulation in the United States, and were translated into several foreign languages. By 1927 Ford had repudiated the 'International Jew,' but hundreds of thousands of people around the world had been encouraged by his initial endorsement to accept the Protocols as genuine. The Protocols and Nazi Germany The Protocols served to rationalize anti-Semitism and genocide in Hitler’s Germany. The myth of the Jewish world conspiracy permeated Hitler’s thinking, and he linked Germany’s economic hardship during the 1920s to the secret plot. Once in power Hitler invoked the Protocols to justify anti-Semitic legislation and suppression of all opposition to the Third Reich. For example, the first anti-Semitic measure in April of 1933, a one-day boycott of Jewish stores, was deemed a defense against the 'Plan of Basel' (another name for the Protocols). 3 - Contemporary Re-Emergence of the Protocols Anti-Semites around the globe still actively circulate the Protocols. It has appeared in Japan-where bestsellers by anti-Semite Masami Uno cite them as evidence of a 'Jewish conspiracy to dominate the world’-and in Latin America (including Argentina, Brazil, Chile, Colombia and Paraguay). The document is also favored by such U.S. right-wing extremists as the Ku Klux Klan and Aryan Nations. The most common U.S. edition was published by hatemonger Gerald L. K. Smith’s Christian Nationalist Crusade. The Protocols have become a major source of Arab and Islamic propaganda. Between 1965 and 1967 alone, approximately 50 books on political subjects published in Arabic were either based on the Protocols or quoted from them. In 1980, Hazern Nuseibeh, the Jordanian delegate to the United Nations, spoke about the Protocols as a genuine document. In October of 1987 the Iranian Embassy in Brazil circulated copies of the Protocols, which it said 'belongs to the history of the world.' During the 1980s Muslim groups peddled the forgery worldwide. The Muslim Student Associations at Wayne State University in Michigan and at the University of California at Berkeley disseminated the document. American Black Muslim groups have sold it. The Protocols were for sale at an Islamic exhibition in Stockholm and in London’s Park Mosque, and during a 1986 conference sponsored by the Islamic Center of Southern California the Protocols were prominently displayed. Based on a perverse 'interpretation' of the Protocols, the Saudi Arabian government blamed Israel for an attack on a synagogue in Istanbul in 1986. With Glasnost there has also been a reappearance of the Protocols in the Soviet Union. A Soviet book released in 1987 called 'On the Class Essence of Zionism' revived insidious canards contained in the Protocols, and made repeated references to Jews engaging in 'constant efforts to gain control of the world.' And sections of the Protocols have reportedly been read during meetings of the anti-Semitic Russian nationalist movement Pamyat (Memory). 4 - Widespread Condemnation During the past 60 years impressive authorities have publicly attested to the Protocols’ fraudulence. Hugo Valentin, lecturer in history at the University of Upsala in Sweden, characterized the Protocols in his 1936 study Anti-Semitism, Historically and Critically Examined as 'the greatest forgery of the century.' Father Pierre Charles, Professor of Theology at the Jesuit College in Louvain, France, stated in a 1938 essay: 'It has been proved that these ‘Protocols’ are a fraud, a clumsy plagiarism. . . made for the purpose of rendering the Jews odious...' In 1942, several prominent historians, including Carl Becker of Cornell, Sydney Fay and William Langer of Harvard, and Allan Nevins and Cariton J. H. Hayes of Columbia, introduced Professor John Shelton Curtiss’ ‘An Appraisal of the Protocols of Zion' with their endorsement of his findings as 'completely destructive of the historicity of the Protocols and as establishing beyond doubt the fact that they are rank and pernicious forgeries.' In 1961 Richard Helms, then Assistant Director of the CIA, stated at a Senate subcommittee hearing: 'The Russians have a long tradition in the art of forgery. More than 60 years ago the Czarist intelligence service concocted and peddled a confection called The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.' And in August of 1964 a subcommittee of the Senate Judiciary Committee issued a report repudiating the Protocols, to which Senators Thomas J. Dodd and Kenneth B. Keating appended the following: 'Every age and country has had its share of fabricated ‘historic’ documents which have been foisted on an unsuspecting public for some malign purpose. . . One of the most notorious and most durable of these is the ‘Protocols of the Elders of Zion.’.' Conclusion In 1935 a Swiss judge, presiding at a trial of two Swiss National Socialists charged with circulating the Protocols, wrote: I hope that one day there will come a time when no one will any longer comprehend how in the year 1935 almost a dozen fully sensible and reasonable men could for fourteen days torment their brains before a court of Berne over the authenticity or lack of authenticity of these so-called Protocols . . .that, for all the harm they have already caused and may yet cause, are nothing but ridiculous nonsense. Unfortunately, the judge’s hope has not yet been fully realized. There are still those anti-Semites and their willing audiences who remain ready to circulate and believe this fantasy of hate.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 15:37:18 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: No, Jim, you're wrong Message:

Piss off on this 'protocols' bullshit. Icke didn't write them, doesn't promote them, and he contends it's the work of Illuminati You are using them as a diversion. I could say YOU promote them since you banty them around so much... I don't see you attacking his argument, you just attack the man and so it is indeed ad hominem Your first post about this was nothing but an ad hominen attack. Period. End of story. I 'got' that your long, drawn out, and boring story was an 'analogy.' Thanks for that. You 'forgot' to address the fact that he was detained at the airport for thirteen hours and was subjected to extraordinary scrutiny, You remember, the 'paranoid' thing? Who started the ADL, btw? What's their background and their agenda, and shouldn't we take this to Anything Goes?

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 17:08:00 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: gerry Subject: No, Jim, you're wrong Message:

He was detained, apparently, because Canada has done that with guys like David Irving who fly in to host public meetings promoting what the goverment believes are racist agendas. I'm not saying I agree with that position vis-a-vis free speech but to think that there's some 'Illuminati' agenda behind that is stupid. And racist. Why do I say that? Because, Icke's whole crazy argument on that point, to the extent that I can bother to entertain myself with his idiocy, is that the rich jews who finance organizations like B'nai Brith or the JDL (e.g. the Rothschilds or Bronfmans) are giant Illuminati figures all part of the world domination plot. You don't have to scratch this shit too deep to see that it's dangerous anti-semitic garbage. Icke does indeed depend on the bullshit screed of the PofZ and that has to be disturbing to any jew. Obvious reasons. You seem oblivious to them unfortunately. But then you DO have a bit of blind spot, don't you?

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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 04:12:50 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: No, Jim, you're wrong Message:

He was detained, apparently, because Canada has done that with guys like David Irving who fly in to host public meetings promoting what the goverment believes are racist agendas. Maybe that is the reason: they believe Icke has a racist agenda. I don't think he does.. In fact he goes to great lengths to answer this accusation and he answers it to my satisfaction. I'm not saying I agree with that position vis-a-vis free speech but to think that there's some 'Illuminati' agenda behind that is stupid. And racist. You are laboring under the misunderstanding that 'Illuminati' ='Jews.' This is not so. Most people who Icke considers as 'Illuminati' are Anglos. It doesn't take an 'Illuminati conspiracy' to hassle a guy like Icke who has been deemed polically incorrect. What has the guy done besides write some books, set up a website and give some public speeches? People choose to buy his book or listen to him because they want to. Why do I say that? Because, Icke's whole crazy argument on that point, to the extent that I can bother to entertain myself with his idiocy, is that the rich jews who finance organizations like B'nai Brith or the JDL (e.g. the Rothschilds or Bronfmans) are giant Illuminati figures all part of the world domination plot. You don't have to scratch this shit too deep to see that it's dangerous anti-semitic garbage. The Bronfmans are an excellent example of people who made money illegally and are by definition, a 'crime family' Kinda like the Kennedy crime family, or the Giancani crime family or the Bush crime family. The Rothchilds are real rich and powerful and influential. I don't really care what their national identy is. But I am impressed that you know who the people are behind these organizations. Icke does indeed depend on the bullshit screed of the PofZ and that has to be disturbing to any jew. Obvious reasons. You seem oblivious to them unfortunately. But then you DO have a bit of blind spot, don't you? Jim I read the vile document. I know what it says. I can see how it would be disturbing to anyone especially jews who read it and knew its history. Hitler like it fer chrissake and used it as one of his support documents. I can heartily see why you would recoil at anyone who promotes this 'document' as real. I don't see Icke doing that. Believe me I understand your revulsion. And I'd share it if I thought it was deserved. Can I eat my dinner now?

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 18:03:57 (GMT) From: Don't anyone listen... Email: from gerry To: all Subject: Jim's already made your mind up for you. (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 18:51:46 (GMT) From: Kansas Email: None To: Don't anyone listen... Subject: Jim Defies Talking Stick Rules? Message:

Jim has a common communication fault. When he says 'he is a fruitcake' what he means is 'I think he is a fruitcake' The first way 'he is a fritcake' sounds like an order to the foum members to think 'he is a fruitcake.' This is always getting Jim in trouble. He can be outspoken and nasty when he is crossed. A simple 1980s style workshop on how to send 'I messages' is all he needs. Jim is not respected for his opinions on the forum, so much as he is loved for the fact that he is a bear with a sore leg, a heart of gold and strong moral convictions, He needs to go to listen to an old 8 track group communications seminar (available most garage sales and flea markets in the free world) and use a speech editor for a couple of weeks. He must have been detoxing from the cult when the rest of us learned the abcs of communication. We should work with a talking stick round here. But most of the exs would have personal blind spots as a result of being distracted by trying to cope. It would be good to have Jims imput at the end of a thread- so that his magnetism doesnt stun everyones thoughts. Sort of a summary-evaluation of the discussion LEAVING OUT HIS PERSONAL OPINION. He is very very fair and gentle but smothers the discussion with his clumsy bulk. I respect him but I never read threads with his posts- they are always his discussions .

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 00:18:52 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Kansas Subject: Stupid new age window dressing? Message:

Jim has a common communication fault. When he says 'he is a fruitcake' what he means is 'I think he is a fruitcake' I guess what you really mean to say is that you think I have a common communication fault. Oh well.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 02:29:31 (GMT) From: Kansas Email: None To: Jim Subject: Stupid new age window dressing? Message:

Why Jim, surely you dont mean that the American Indian custom of holding the Sacred Talking Stick when addressing a group is window dressing!!!. Careful. No, I know you have a problem if that is what you are getting at.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 05:24:03 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Kansas Subject: What's wrong? Can't you read? Message:

That's not at all what I was talking about. Care to re-read my last post to you and perhaps respond?

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 06:05:27 (GMT) From: Kansas Email: None To: Jim Subject: Can read. Do read. Do know. Message:

Jim responded: Jim has a common communication fault. When he says 'he is a fruitcake' what he means is 'I think he is a fruitcake' I guess what you really mean to say is that you think I have a common communication fault. Oh well. There, I pasted it, you sort out the alighnment. This with the title 'Stupid new age window dressing'.??????? Maybe Ive been in the hills to long. I dont get the window dressing reference when applied to the think/know communication fault. Feels like a game of Twister. (:-))) I aint going to wander into the den when the snakes are agitated. Down boy

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 17:17:10 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Kansas Subject: Look who's talking! Message:

You first posted a post entitled 'Jim defies talking stick rules' (as if there were any such rules here or anything of the sort). But your post wasn't about no talking stick, it was about how I don't say 'I think' before I say what I think. That was what your post was about, remember? So when I replied to what you'd actually said -- by pointing out that you did the exact same thing! -- you avoid the issue and say something else. What's your education level? Even spent anytime in a cult by chance?

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 19:09:40 (GMT) From: Kansas Email: None To: Jim Subject: Look who's talking! Message:

Jim responded: You first posted a post entitled 'Jim defies`talking stick rules (as if there were any such rules here or anything of the sort). --Jim , I wasnt trying to say we should have talking stick rules on the forum. Talking stick rules are obsolete as such. The rules are not rules to be enforced. They have been adapted as common sense in most circles- In a cirle of discussion WITH NO LEADER or BULLY anyone not able to give courtesy to anothers line of thought looses the privilege of being in the circle. Because they are in trauma. And they need therapy or something. Therapy is not about challenging what the person is saying. It is allowing the person to discover a next step for themselves. If you have been running around the court slam dunking, people expect that from you, and I think you enjoy that. That is one thing. But you cannot expect us not to talk about it. You dont have unlimited slam dunking privileges. You need to work on your timing. Challenging ideas is a good thing here or anywhere, but how it is done results in whether the challenge is accepted by the other person or not. A forum or discussion where everybody just states their opinion is boring. It is the interchange that makes is alive. So if I am talking about you with some one else, and you overhear /read it YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO INTERJECT UNLESS YOU ARE ASKED. I have been patient this once and let you sidetrack the discussion but this is only to illustrate the point in public. And if I am having a discussion with someone about anything, you are not allowed to interupt or cross over our concentration UNLESS YOU ARE ASKED. You will have to demonstrate a degree of self control and courtesy. You may ask to contribute about the subject but not comment on the persons speaking or their style of communication or iq or any of those flushing mechanisms you use. Now I will take off my shcoolmistress hat. I hope you understand that your 15 yr old smart ass style has prompted this hat to come out of its nice tidy hat box. Do you see it now? You have a tendency to slam dunk people. I made a comment - not to you- about talking stick rules . I was talking about your style- not to you. Now you would have me in a defensive stance for you to take issues one by one and analyise/prove and defend a point of view. How you try to keep me there is by wide sweeps about what sucks, my education level or other mind games. All I mean to say is that those tactics are transparent to the observer. And they are dumb tactics. Where did you get this thing of intimidating if you dont feel heard. You know what you are doing and I dont need to spend my time on it. Shit, it is so transparent that they got it on the television for gods sake jim . Watch the Mafia guy at the shrink on Sopranos. Its so old Hollywood can put it in a weekly program. Even he is starting to get it so you can too. You need to update your intimidation crutch. Talk about having spent time in a cult. I know you were being light -ditto Much like and respect (really) Kansas

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 23:52:55 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Kansas Subject: Thanks very much Message:

Who do you think you are trying to tell people when and how they can voice their opinion? This isn't your classroom or nursery. Nor is it the back of your station wagon. Hell you're not even my mother! Forget it.

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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 19:03:10 (GMT) From: Kansas Email: None To: Jim Subject: Stupid Man. Its not your fourm-court-boot camp Message:

either. You do exactly that.

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Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 22:30:24 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Kansas Subject: Could you try to at least SOUND intelligent? Message:

I don't even know what you're saying half the time. Not that I really want to but if you insist please write a little more clearly. You know, Talking Stick Rules!

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 19:15:59 (GMT) From: gerry Email: glyng@techline.com To: Kansas Subject: Jim Defies Talking Stick Rules? Message:

Wow. Great analysis and very well said. If you care to identify yourself, I've left my e-mail address. Just curious, don't want to chat necessarily and definitely no pressure to comply. I'd like to hear more about this 'talking stick' thing and I suppose I could always do a 'net search. Thanks, and I do understand by saying what you have said you are not endorsing me or David Ickes.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 06:52:38 (GMT) From: Kansas Email: None To: gerry Subject: Jim Defies Talking Stick Rules? Message:

Hi I would email you and identify myself, as long as you promise not to get into my computer and steal my muffin recipes. The talking stick- I dont know alot about it except it is used in sweat lodges, mens groups and yuppie management think tanks. So it is an old concept grafted onto modern settings. No one is allowed to interupt or introduce a new tangent until the person holding the talking stick passes it to another. There is no sarcasm, belittling. or snide comments allowed, which are mechanisms used to steer the attention of the group from what the speaker is saying who is holding the talking stick. The set up is based on the premise of ultimate respect for a each persons right to speak. But there is always a facilitator. Aha. I have just given myself the clue to the New Age window dressing comment. Kansas

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 17:21:30 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Kansas Subject: Those rules suck Message:

Boy, you sound like some Sedona-type ninny. Let me jsut ask, how large are your earrings? Why in the world would you want to curtail peoples' honest expression? Why would you want to assume that what everyone ahs to say is worthy of respect? Why would you want people to stifle their honest thoughts and feelings? To make a 'safe zone' for stupid ideas? Yes, of course, everyone should have 'ultimate respect' whether they deserve it or not!

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 15:56:52 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Kansas Subject: Jim Defies Talking Stick Rules? Message:

No one is allowed to interupt or introduce a new tangent until the person holding the talking stick passes it to another. There is no sarcasm, belittling. or snide comments allowed, which are mechanisms used to steer the attention of the group from what the speaker is saying who is holding the talking stick. The set up is based on the premise of ultimate respect for a each persons right to speak. But there is always a facilitator. Sounds quite civilized, actually. Might even tame the likes of me. I do agree with you that we see these diversionary tactics employed here a lot. I'm sure I do it myself. No sweat if you don't want to e-mail me. But I really don't know how to access anyone else's computer or password protected chat room, for that matter (so relax, Run.)

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 19:21:28 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: all Subject: PS I'm bailing out at this point... Message:

in the discussion, not because the topic (original one, that is) doesn't interest me but because I've seen to many threads get turned into 'Jim' threads and that topic no longer interests me in the least.

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 19:15:49 (GMT) From: KS2 Email: None To: Kansas Subject: Jim Defies Talking Stick Rules? Message:

Kansas - you're a little hard to follow. I knew a person like you in a Kansas premie community in the 70's. Is it you, I wonder? Can you give me any clues without compromising your general anonimity? Here's a clue about me: although I lived in Kansas, Kentucky was in my address. Discretely yours, KS2

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 15:36:54 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Is this funny or WHAT?? Message:

How many forced, ridiculous modern-day Maharaji-cult words can you find in the following 'poems'? I've picked a few. This reminds me of one of those assorted refrigerator magnet or metal cup magnet giftee kind of things. You know, all these little buzzwords on some topic or other. You can just arrange them any which way, make up your own 'poems' and stuff. That's how Ivete Belfort Mattos of Sao Paolo, Brazil plays. Finally a game that the whole primate family can enjoy, not just higher apes: Impeccable harmony So complete ~ my master So perfect ~ the human being So harmonious ~ the Knowledge So distinct ~ the opportunity So beautiful ~ the participation So lovely ~ the team Magic synchronised and: Real transparency Silent on a the crest of a wave, With eyes closed in empty plenitude My light within Everything is real My thoughts are lighter than the air I inhabit a transparency I am in love with this world Impeccable evidence of my gratitude I share the clarity of love and: Perfect love My life is full of emotion. I experience a wonderful feeling, Like a trip through the ocean Or a voyage through my life. I learn from my heart My beauty and harmony never end. The eternal commitment of happiness: My deep comprehension is pure. Real love is perpetual inside me. Thank you for this perfect love! and: Perfection What tranquillises me is that everything that exists, exists with the most profound precision. Everything that exists is precise. Yet a part of it is technically invisible. And the real truth is the invisible and secret part of it. I had the happiness to discover this when I found Knowledge. and: In the middle of the road In the middle of the road was a stone was a stone in the middle of the road was a stone in the middle of the road was a stone. I shall never forget that event in the life of my so tired eyes. I shall never forget that in the middle of the road was a stone was a stone in the middle of the road in the middle of the road was a stone. I don't want to be stopped in the middle of the road I shall never forget that event I'll follow the road Mind you, Janice Wilson, my original would-be face-squeezing victim, isn't bad at this either: Light shines At any given moment I can drown in arrogance, ego, pride, darkness At any given moment I can be brought into the light of my heart, this joy, love, bliss How delicate it is How carefully, cautiously I must walk across the tightrope of this life Without a doubt I need the guidance of my heart my teacher, and this Knowledge Then darkness is easily dispelled by light fear removed, confidence arises I am home free Safe inside the shelter of my heart Grateful for the understanding you bring, Maharaji I love the deep feeling of contentment this Knowledge reveals in the core of my being A comfort, a peace so much needed and appreciated Thank you that the light from my heart continues to shine!

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 15:56:10 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: Hey, here's another contestant Message:

The kingdom of my heart Each time I reach inside Where love awaits me, Where peace is present, Where no pains are felt But a relief of tenderness, Each time, gratitude rolls out of my eyes In warm tears, sweet to my mouth, Coming from deep inside my heart, To clean me from dirt, misery desperate scenarios, Broken dreams, useless hopes, sadness and sorrow Accumulated through aeons and aeons and aeons of light years; Each time I come out from, Your waves of golden light, Your comforting sound, Your soothing feeling, Your pounding sweetness[??], Each time the kingdom of my heart has expanded a little more, And so has my joy, And so has my gratitude, And so has my love, for you, each time... Martine Delatour Nice, France

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 15:53:18 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Jim Subject: Very funny and nauseating Message:

but Jim, is comprehension an approved premie buzzword? I had not picked up on that one. Must be time for a tune up on the cult radar.

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 16:05:55 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Susan Subject: I don't know but this is addicting! Message:

Not sure about that, Susan, but I AM sure that no list would be complete with Cecilia de Trinidad: Garland of love One longing, ten longings, a hundred longings, then thousands upon thousands of longings, invite grace, search out love. One heart, ten hearts, a hundred hearts, then thousands upon thousands of longing hearts woven together with one single transparent thread Allow love to manifest, and you appear. Why don't you try it? Really, we should have a permanent contest site.

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 16:16:03 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: I don't know. Seems pretty hard to beat Ivete Message:

Student I wish to be wise. The more I read, The more I know that I do not know. The more I listen to my heart, The more I understand my fulfillment. The more I notice the confusion, The more I rely on my happiness inside. The more I assume I am a student, The more I learn. The more I understand my limits, The more I see that there are none.

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 16:26:14 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Jim Subject: I need an emesis basin...... Message:

a barf bag....something... My bowels, they loosen My gastric contents begin to erupt At the very sound The very melody Of those words An event like no other As I rush to the bathroom And it flows And overflows To where it belongs

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 20:27:24 (GMT) From: JW Email: None To: Susan Subject: Excellent Susan Message:

I would submit it to Enjoyinglife and see if they publish it. As you know, they published this absolutely meaningless quote I sent in from T.S. Elliot a while back, and I just checked and it's still there, with my name big as life. Am I the only ex on this forum who has an 'Expression' published on Enjoyinglife? Don't I deserve something for that? Some kind of an award or something? Hmmmm?

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 16:29:50 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Susan Subject: Yes, well, um, thank you for that, Susan (nt) Message:

mm

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 16:31:33 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Jim Subject: ROTFLOL (nt) Message:

nt rolling on the floor laughing out loud Too Funny!

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 16:34:53 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Jim Subject: are you saying Enjoying Life won't publish my poem Message:

I thought it was pretty good. :(

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 16:39:39 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Susan Subject: Y shld they when they've got stuff like this? Message:

A gift in my life Now is always the time to be happy in my life. My life is so beautiful and serene. There are many important things in your life, but there is one thing that it is the most important. This thing is a simple and precious gift. All that I have to do with this beautiful gift is to enjoy it. And I do it. Thank you for the gift. Thank you for this life.

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 17:10:50 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: This turns you on? Message:

Jim, What do you get out of this shit? It is so fucking lame. It's incomprehensible. Where ARE these fucking people? I never go over to ELK. What the fuck for? It's like journeying into the twilight zone. Aren't you afraid you'll get trapped? If you listen to enough of this crap, you could start believing it. I mean, isn't that what happenned to them? Poor saps.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 01:06:30 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Come on, Jerry, it's FUNNY Message:

Jerry, This stuff is hilarious, don't you think. 'I have to grow in the appreciation of my clarity....'? Hell, if it weren't for this kind of nonsense I don't know if I'd really enjoy being an ex. This kind of shit makes it all worthwhile.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 01:41:06 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: I guess I'm just not there yet, Jim Message:

It wasn't too long ago that I thought there was something to this stuff, Jim. I kind of felt like I was on the outside looking in, like these people had realized something and I didn't. Today, I'm still pressing for escape velocity to establish my own orbit, instead of circulating in M's. This shit over at ELK is like fucking gravity. It sucks me back down into the misery of premiedumb. Maybe some day I'll find it as funny as you do. Right now, I just think it's sad. The pitfalls that people can fall into. If these people are anything like I was, these poems of their's are the expresions of captive minds, just wishing they were free, struggling in vain to convince themselves that they are, but in reality are a million miles away form the freedom they want so bad and think they have. That's sad. That's fucked up.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 02:02:51 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Well that's the other side --- tragedy and comedy Message:

It's both pathetic and funny. But Jerry, there's no way in a million years that you could ever drift back. Never.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 22:05:35 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: Thanks Message:

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Jim. And you're right. 'I have to grow in appreciation of my clarity', or whatever it was, is funny, as far as cult-think goes, I suppose. It's also scary. It reminds of the Borg in Star-Trek Voyager. Did you ever watch this show? I hardly ever do myself. But these guys are all of one mind. Their motto is 'Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated'. There should be a sign that says this outside the door of every video presentation.

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 16:25:29 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: But then Janice is just so good too! Message:

Liberate the heart and fly Everyday my commitment has to be to be with my heart this feeling enjoying, dancing, celebrating Everything else has to come second The good, the bad, the right, the wrong. Standing back ,watching the rollercoaster ride this world offers me, Do I want to get on it ? No, I think not. I don't like feeling sick, dizzy thrown about. My commitment is to stay out of the waves and reach to the dry land of my heart, of this feeling. that is my shelter, my safe haven I am deeply in love with this simple, beautiful feeling. It is a full time job courting my heart, my clarity Thank you Maharaji for being my teacher And teaching me how to be part of the real game Enjoying,appreciating the gift of this life The gift of my heart, and this Knowledge It is everything, it is exquisite

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Date: Thurs, Mar 23, 2000 at 04:32:25 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: But then Janice is just so good too! Message:

weell that one is funny... and great job on the bold words. These folks ARE robots. They should Rebel !!!

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 15:48:27 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: No it's repulsive--can't read that crap (nt) Message:

You must have a stronger stomach than I, Mr Heller.

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 20:13:47 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: gerry Subject: Remarkable sense of watching clones being made(nt) Message:

Remarkable sense of watching clones being made(nt)

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 22:05:25 (GMT) From: Fanny Email: None To: thread Subject: Cannd Bliss Tracd to Sweetnd Cndnsd Mlk in Indn Fd Message:

Prefabricated 'look at me I am emmersed in sweetness' Betty White at her finest Lost Brother Loves travelling Salvation Show Tammy Baker List goes on

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