Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Mon, Mar 27, 2000 at 23:05:19 (GMT)
From: Mar 16, 2000 To: Mar 26, 2000 Page: 5 Of: 5


Remy -:- Irvine Hyatt -:- Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 01:51:43 (GMT)
__ Angry -:- Irvine Hyatt is Not Worthy -:- Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 10:42:05 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Irvine Hyatt -:- Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 05:49:23 (GMT)
__ __ Remy -:- Irvine Hyatt -:- Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 14:45:05 (GMT)

Nigel -:- Signing off (ot) -:- Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 20:00:22 (GMT)
__ cq -:- Elp! Ze British are...going ...coming ...going ... -:- Mon, Mar 20, 2000 at 19:57:06 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- You'll probably like this one Chris... -:- Tues, Mar 21, 2000 at 01:39:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- or this one.. -:- Tues, Mar 21, 2000 at 01:42:40 (GMT)
__ Marianne -:- Signing off - BETTER NOT! -:- Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 19:00:45 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- 'elegant'? you have got to be fucking... -:- Tues, Mar 21, 2000 at 01:36:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- 'Size of her hangover'? -:- Tues, Mar 21, 2000 at 20:01:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Leave it to a Brit... -:- Tues, Mar 21, 2000 at 21:13:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Leave it to a Brit... -:- Tues, Mar 21, 2000 at 21:43:50 (GMT)
__ Mike -:- Signing off (ot) -:- Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 15:39:47 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Signing off (ot) -:- Tues, Mar 21, 2000 at 02:14:05 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- Cainer's win-win philosophy (from the Guardian) -:- Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 15:18:18 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Attention Mel! Copyright material reproduced!(nt) -:- Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 15:45:08 (GMT)
__ dv -:- Signing off (ot) -:- Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 14:35:17 (GMT)
__ Loaf -:- Signing off (ot) -:- Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 08:45:59 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Signing off (ot) -:- Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 15:10:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ Loaf -:- Signing off (ot) -:- Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 21:24:06 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- progress not perfection huh? -:- Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 00:02:51 (GMT)
__ Hal -:- Signing off (ot) -:- Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 22:24:29 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Signing off (ot) -:- Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 15:29:54 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- Nigel/Selene (ot) -:- Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 01:31:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ bb -:- Nigel/Selene (ot) -:- Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 02:09:03 (GMT)

cq -:- Instructors' Training Manual- written by the Maha? -:- Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 16:36:31 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Hahaha I forgot I'm permanently disqulified hahaha -:- Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 21:36:50 (GMT)
__ G -:- When speaking, or answering questions... -:- Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 19:11:25 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- nice and precise, thanks G .... -:- Mon, Mar 20, 2000 at 18:26:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- Peer and authority pressure - experiments -:- Mon, Mar 20, 2000 at 23:41:10 (GMT)
__ __ JW -:- Yes, very Accurate -:- Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 00:33:01 (GMT)
__ __ Joey -:- Love your 'translation G'....nicely done! (nt) -:- Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 19:28:39 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Well put, G -- that's it exactly -:- Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 19:27:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- Nichols and May routine - not familiar with it nt -:- Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 20:47:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Well you should be -:- Mon, Mar 20, 2000 at 00:26:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- one small step for a man ... but for the mama?(nt) -:- Mon, Mar 20, 2000 at 16:47:23 (GMT)

Stonor -:- G -it got lopped soon after I posted -:- Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 14:46:55 (GMT)
__ G -:- the tread below -:- Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 20:43:30 (GMT)
__ __ Stonor -:- the 'G' word and -:- Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 22:10:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- Time Bandits -:- Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 01:47:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- Keep honking while I reload - God ... -:- Mon, Mar 20, 2000 at 19:25:15 (GMT)
__ Stonor -:- and J-M Freud, there's a question for you -:- Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 14:52:14 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- and J-M Freud, there's a question for you -:- Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 15:04:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ Stonor -:- Thanks for the info J-M! (nt) -:- Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 17:23:49 (GMT)

Jean-Michel -:- Dowload great stuff for the weekend's reading!!! -:- Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 09:06:39 (GMT)
__ And On Anand Ji -:- Dowload great stuff for the weekend's reading!!! -:- Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 05:03:25 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Precisely about Antidote: toxic materials, hahaha -:- Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 05:59:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ AOAJi -:- Precisely about Antidote: toxic materials, hahaha -:- Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 21:56:09 (GMT)

Jim -:- Now I remember the kind of premies I hated -:- Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 02:54:14 (GMT)
__ a-z -:- The typical Janice Wilson type -:- Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 13:25:46 (GMT)
__ Charlie -:- the politics of hating premies -:- Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 11:50:09 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- My local premie friends are VERY laidback -:- Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 16:50:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ Charlie -:- Laidback is the premie way to be -:- Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 19:57:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Well, I'll be your friend, Charlie -:- Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 20:03:06 (GMT)
__ Hal -:- What's so bad about that one Jim? -:- Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 12:30:57 (GMT)
__ __ Mike -:- Hal, it's the simple insinuation -:- Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 18:16:32 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- What bugs me is the paen to being 'simple' -:- Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 18:15:35 (GMT)
__ __ Charlie -:- bitterly twisted -:- Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 13:42:48 (GMT)
__ Hey Fungulahead -:- Now I remember 'I'm a Jerk!! -:- Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 12:23:18 (GMT)
__ Harry -:- Ho hum -:- Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 07:00:25 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- 'Simplicity ' is just another word for 'ignorance' -:- Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 20:47:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ Harry -:- 'Simplicity ' is just another word for 'ignorance' -:- Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 02:33:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ Stonor -:- Bang on there again, Jim (nt) -:- Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 21:17:23 (GMT)
__ Stonor -:- Now I remember the kind of premies I hated -:- Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 05:30:48 (GMT)
__ __ Hal -:- Now I remember the kind of premies I hated -:- Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 10:09:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ Stonor -:- and maybe I do somewhat -:- Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 14:26:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joey -:- I believe you DO understand, Stonor -:- Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 17:11:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- I believe you DO understand, Stonor -:- Mon, Mar 20, 2000 at 02:54:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- I believe you DO understand, Stonor -:- Tues, Mar 21, 2000 at 15:32:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Homeopathy -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 02:22:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Homeopathy -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 04:25:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Homeopathy? Give me a bit more time. -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 06:11:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Homeopathy? Give me a bit more time. -:- Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 07:34:28 (GMT)
__ __ Runamok -:- Stonor, do you hate the premies? -:- Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 07:10:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ Stonor -:- No, I don't hate even the rude premies -:- Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 14:33:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Hal -:- See any of that on this forum? -:- Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 22:42:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- See any of that on this forum? -:- Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 23:00:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Even more honestly ... -:- Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 00:17:27 (GMT)

A Master Poet -:- Useless -:- Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 22:27:19 (GMT)
__ Clap, Clap, Clap -:- Useless: Correct: Clap, clap, clap....nt -:- Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 00:24:12 (GMT)

Helen -:- Happy St. Patty's Day! -:- Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 22:14:05 (GMT)
__ Marianne -:- Happy Belated St. Patty's Day from Ireland -:- Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 19:05:32 (GMT)
__ Helen -:- To eb and selene -:- Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 13:41:29 (GMT)
__ __ Harry -:- To Hellen -:- Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 02:55:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jackie -:- To Hellen -:- Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 06:27:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Harry -:- Steiner -:- Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 07:26:10 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- waldorf schools (ot) -:- Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 23:02:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ Susan -:- waldorf schools (ot) -:- Mon, Mar 20, 2000 at 18:10:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Susan -:- that link doesn't work let me try again -:- Mon, Mar 20, 2000 at 18:17:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Harry -:- that link doesn't work let me try again -:- Tues, Mar 21, 2000 at 02:33:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Steiner's are the lowest of the low -:- Mon, Mar 20, 2000 at 19:58:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Harry -:- Steiner's are the lowest of the low -:- Tues, Mar 21, 2000 at 02:07:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Steiner's are the lowest of the low -:- Tues, Mar 21, 2000 at 07:02:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Harry -:- Steiner's are the lowest of the low -:- Tues, Mar 21, 2000 at 09:19:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Steiner's are the lowest of the low -:- Tues, Mar 21, 2000 at 11:03:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- Steiner's are the lowest of the low -:- Mon, Mar 20, 2000 at 20:15:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Steiner's are the lowest of the low -:- Tues, Mar 21, 2000 at 01:38:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Steiner's are the lowest of the low -:- Tues, Mar 21, 2000 at 07:07:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- the above DOES work and I would love to hear what -:- Mon, Mar 20, 2000 at 18:37:42 (GMT)
__ eb -:- Happy St. Patty's Day! -:- Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 01:08:49 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- Those songs! -:- Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 23:00:29 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- who's Tommy Boy - oops Chris Farley? -:- Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 00:01:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ Danny -:- Me heart belongs to you lass. -:- Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 11:37:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- Me heart belongs to you lass. -:- Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 23:39:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Danny with tears -:- Me heart belongs to you lass. -:- Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 01:51:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ I feel mean -:- Me heart belongs to you lass. -:- Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 04:12:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Danny with smiley faces -:- Me heart belongs to you lass. -:- Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 05:07:56 (GMT)

Remy -:- Completely Baffled -:- Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 21:17:10 (GMT)
__ Helen -:- Completely Baffled -:- Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 14:11:16 (GMT)
__ jesse -:- Completely Baffled -:- Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 00:09:37 (GMT)

Cockney Pete -:- Eyeball squeezing -:- Thurs, Mar 16, 2000 at 22:51:11 (GMT)
__ Hal -:- Get real Pete -:- Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 12:39:33 (GMT)
__ JHB -:- Eyeball squeezing -:- Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 14:34:08 (GMT)
__ __ John Tucker -:- Eyeball squeezing -:- Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 08:56:09 (GMT)
__ __ Cockney Pete -:- Eyeball squeezing -:- Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 16:03:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- Nasty posts? -:- Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 19:37:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ Gregg -:- Dear Mr. Pete: -:- Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 16:50:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- You can't be serious, little Petie -:- Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 16:35:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- You can't be serious, little Petie -:- Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 18:48:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- You can't be serious, cq -:- Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 18:51:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Cockney Rebel -:- You are so intelligent -:- Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 18:43:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Funny, you're sure not -:- Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 18:46:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- IntelliBULL? 'None so blind as those who ... -:- Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 18:51:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- What's that supposed to mean, cq? (nt) -:- Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 18:52:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- What's that supposed to mean, cq? (nt) -:- Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 19:10:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Reasonable prejudice? Why not -:- Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 20:05:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Reasonable prejudice? Why not -:- Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 20:30:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Reasonable prejudice? Why not? -:- Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 20:50:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Reasonable prejudice? Why not? -:- Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 20:57:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Reasonable prejudice? Why not? -:- Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 21:09:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Reasonable prejudice? Why not? -:- Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 21:20:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cockney Pete -:- Games up -:- Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 23:55:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cockney Nigel -:- Had your fun, have you? -:- Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 19:29:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- Nothing more needs to be said, Nigel -:- Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 15:51:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- You tell 'im Nigel. Yeah right on! (nt) -:- Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 22:21:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- To Pete (OT) -:- Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 04:40:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- LEA? -:- Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 14:29:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- LEA?(OT) -:- Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 22:02:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Bhole shri El Eeeyay? (OT) -:- Mon, Mar 20, 2000 at 16:58:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Naw, I paid my dues -- let's talk turkey! -:- Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 02:01:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Stonor says: mental work-out yes/insult no -:- Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 05:03:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- have to add . . . -:- Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 05:19:40 (GMT)
__ JB -:- Eyeball squeezing -:- Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 03:07:57 (GMT)
__ JW -:- Eyeball squeezing -:- Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 00:54:59 (GMT)
__ __ Cockney P -:- Eyeball squeezing -:- Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 06:38:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ JW -:- Eyeball squeezing -:- Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 18:10:33 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Doesn't work that way, Joe -:- Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 03:12:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ JW -:- For Your Information,I have Received Knowledge -:- Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 05:55:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Cockney Pete -:- You didn't receive Knowledge -:- Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 06:42:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Pot Calling Kettle Black, Peetie -:- Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 18:07:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pete -:- Pot Calling Kettle Black, Peetie -:- Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 18:45:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Then you're an even bigger idiot -:- Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 18:49:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ C P -:- Relax Jimbo, Some meditation may help. (nt) -:- Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 00:01:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Then you're an even bigger idiot -:- Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 19:02:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- I wouldn't spend too long with this guy... -:- Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 20:27:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Way -:- A test for Pete -:- Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 20:57:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- A test for Peat........ -:- Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 22:05:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- ... who cares? I'm often wrong, but still care(nt) -:- Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 20:43:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Angry -:- You didn't receive Knowledge/Explain Please -:- Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 12:27:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ toby -:- YOU didn't receive Knowledge -:- Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 08:29:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Me -:- For Your Information,I have Received Knowledge -:- Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 06:03:12 (GMT)
__ Mike -:- You mean, cock-eyed pete, don't you? -:- Thurs, Mar 16, 2000 at 23:09:37 (GMT)
__ __ eb -:- I tried it both ways, -:- Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 04:47:14 (GMT)


Date: Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 01:51:43 (GMT)
From: Remy
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Irvine Hyatt
Message:
E.V. has it booked from 6a until 12a. What do they do for that long of time in there? Aren't they already brainwashed?
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Date: Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 10:42:05 (GMT)
From: Angry
Email: None
To: Remy
Subject: Irvine Hyatt is Not Worthy
Message:
There will be a crew of premies there at 6 AM to begin cleaning the area. From there perspective, the place is filthy and must be made ready for the Lord. Of course, there must be meetings of ushers and security. Bliss takes a lot of effort.
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Date: Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 05:49:23 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Remy
Subject: Irvine Hyatt
Message:
Didn't you read some of the stuff on the 'EV Today' section of my website?

They have 1000s of things going on aside the actual 'event'. Organizing the organization is the main thing, and this is where 'service' actually happens.

I guess I'll have to post more stuff on their systems, that might give you a better idea. The problem is that I have tons of stuff waiting to be scanned and processed, and this is tedious and boring stupid idiotic stuff.... I'll try to work on some stuff week ....

Wait .... you'll be enlightened soon !!!


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Date: Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 14:45:05 (GMT)
From: Remy
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Irvine Hyatt
Message:
'Organizing the organization' - Too funny.
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Date: Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 20:00:22 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: Signing off (ot)
Message:
..for a while, anyway. Not quitting the forum (always fail!)

I never meant to stick around this long and I have a mountain of work and other interesting stuff I need to get stuck into...(old unanswered emails, too). But, as I find out over and over, the forum is just like bubble-wrap: you gotta keep popping those bubbles (clicking on unread posts) till way beyond the point you are enjoying yourself or even know why you are doing it...

But thanks everyone for still being here, and, by the Grease of the Lard I'll be back - probably sooner than later. Ciaoforniao.
Nigel

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Date: Mon, Mar 20, 2000 at 19:57:06 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Nigel et tout le monde
Subject: Elp! Ze British are...going ...coming ...going ...
Message:
Elp! Ze British are...going ...coming ...going ...

An 'au revoir' story for you, Brian:


OH LA LA

An elderly man was walking through the French countryside, admiring the beautiful spring day, when over a hedgerow he spotted a young couple making love in a field.

Getting over his initial shock he said to himself, 'Ah, young love... ze spring time, ze air, ze flowers... C'est magnifique!' and continued to watch, remembering good times.

Suddenly he drew in a gasp and said, 'Mais... Sacre bleu! Ze woman - she is dead!' and he hurried along as fast as he could to the town to tell Jean, the police chief. He came, out of breath, to the police station and shouted, 'Jean, Jean, zere is zis man, zis woman ... naked in farmer Gaston's field making love.'

The police chief smiled and said; 'Come, come, Henri you are not so old; remember ze young love, ze spring time, ze air, ze flowers? Ah, l'amour! Zis is okay.'

'Mais non! You do not understand; ze woman, she is dead!' Hearing this, Jean leapt up from his seat, rushed out of the station, jumped on his bike, pedalled down to the field, confirmed Henri's story, and pedalled all the way back non-stop to call the doctor.

'Pierre, Pierre, ... this is Jean, I was in Gaston's field; zere is a young couple naked 'aving sex '

To which Pierre replied, 'Jean, I am a man of science. You must remember, it is spring, ze air, ze flowers? Ah, l'amour! Zis is very natural.'

Jean, still out of breath, gasped in reply, 'NON, you do not understand; ze woman, she is dead!'

Hearing this, Pierre exclaimed, 'Mon dieu!' grabbed his black medicine bag; stuffed in his thermometer, stethoscope, and other tools; jumped in the car; and drove like a madman down to Gaston's field.
After carefully examining the participants he drove calmly back to Henri and Jean, who were waiting at the station. He got there, went inside, smiled patiently, and said:

'Ah, mes amis, do not worry. Ze woman, she is not dead; - she is British'.

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Date: Tues, Mar 21, 2000 at 01:39:07 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: cq
Subject: You'll probably like this one Chris...
Message:
Man loses dog and puts an ad in the local paper. 'Here Boy!' he writes.

(c. Spike Milligan)

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Date: Tues, Mar 21, 2000 at 01:42:40 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Nigel
Subject: or this one..
Message:
When I die, I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather. Not screaming in terror like his passengers...

(c. Bob Monkhouse)

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Date: Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 19:00:45 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Nigel
Subject: Signing off - BETTER NOT!
Message:
Nigel: How are you, sweetie?! I know you are working hard and have family to attend to. You are just as wonderful -- even more wonderful -- than your posts let on, in person. Your elegant, insightful and usually humourous words come from an equally elegant, insightful and witty person. This site is a better place when you are here, Nigel. My own swim through these sometimes murky waters has been made more clear by your posts. I am often riveted by what you say. Stay away and care for your life, but come back and entertain us some more!

My visit with you in Liverpool was one of the highlights of the trip across the ocean. Like I said, I couldn't come here and not stop to see you. Thanks for all your kind and supportive words. See you in San Francisco one day!

Much love, many hugs, Nigel,
Marianne

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Date: Tues, Mar 21, 2000 at 01:36:13 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Marianne
Subject: 'elegant'? you have got to be fucking...
Message:
..very perceptive indeed (er, I mean 'kidding')

Shit, Marianne, I am embarrassed now. I reckon I'll have to email you to reply properly.

Listen, folks. Marianne is the very BEST death-row lawyer I ever passed the time of day with! Knows how to to hug yer right - and meeting up last month was - I kid you not - the best night that happened to little ol' me this century...

(BTW: whatever happened to that woman on the news who was 'allergic to the 20th century?' - I bet she's glad it's all over!)

But don't any of of you fellow-Londoner-exes down there let her get away with blaming ME for the size of her hangover.. Couple of (dozen?) Jamieson's and she's her own person from thereonin.

Luv ya, Marianne..San Fran one of these days,
Nigel

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Date: Tues, Mar 21, 2000 at 20:01:32 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: 'Size of her hangover'?
Message:
'Size of her hangover'?

Must have been:



A TYPICAL IRISH ONE

Paddy and Paddy, two Irishmen, went out one day and each bought a pig. When they got home, Paddy turned to Paddy and said 'Paddy, me ol' mate, how we gonna tell who owns which fookin pig?'

Paddy says 'Well Paddy, I'll cut one a ta' ears off my fookin pig, and ten we can tell 'em apart'.

'Ah tat'd be grand,' says Paddy.

This worked fine until a couple of weeks later when Paddy stormed into the house.

'Paddy,' he said, 'your fookin pig has chewed the ear off a my fookinpig. Now we got two fookin pigs with only one ear each. How we gonna tell who owns which fookin pig?'

'Well Paddy' said Paddy 'I'll cut ta other ear off my fookin pig. Ten we'll av two fookin pigs and only one of them will av an ear'

'Ah tat'd be grand,' says Paddy.

Again this worked fine until a couple of weeks later when Paddy again stormed into the house.

'Paddy,' he said, 'your fookin pig has chewed the other ear offa my fookin pig. Now we got two fookin pigs with no fookin ears. How we gonna tell who owns which fookin pig?'

'Ah tis is serious, Paddy' said Paddy 'I'll tell ya what I'll do. I'll cut ta tail offa my fookin pig. Ten we'll av two fookin pigs with no fookin ears, and only one fookin tail.'

'Ah tat'd be grand,' says Paddy.

Another couple of weeks went by, and you guessed it, Paddy stormed into the house once more.

'PADDY' shouted Paddy 'YOUR FOOKIN PIG HAS CHEWED
THE FOOKIN TAIL OFFA MY FOOKIN PIG AND NOW WE GOT
TWO FOOKIN PIGS WITH NO FOOKIN EARS AND NO FOOKIN
TAILS! HOW THE FOOK ARE WE GONNA FOOKIN TELL 'EM
APART!'

'Ah fook it' says Paddy 'How's about you have the black one, and I'll have the white one.'



Make mine a Guinness ...

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Date: Tues, Mar 21, 2000 at 21:13:38 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Leave it to a Brit...
Message:
Hey there Chris! Now doncha go insulting my ancestry or all my pals here at the net pub in Cork. They're all feckin' angry about that post you made. I've given them your email address and they're sending you their own thoughtful responses to your post as we speak.

Hugs & kisses there you! Were you really giggling all the rest of the night in your room at the Latvian club?!

Marianne, the Birthday girl

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Date: Tues, Mar 21, 2000 at 21:43:50 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Leave it to a Brit...
Message:
Thanks, Marianne,

The giggles kept on happening whenever I remembered ... er... remembered ...

... jings, it's gone now.

Anyway, just so's you Irish don't feel picked on, I hope you enjoy this little (plagiarised) story:




2 MEN AND 1 WOMAN

There is a beautiful deserted island, somewhere in the
middle of nowhere, where the following (conveniently
balanced) group of people ends up stranded:

* 2 Italian men and 1 Italian woman
* 2 French men and 1 French woman
* 2 German men and 1 German woman
* 2 Greek men and 1 Greek woman
* 2 English men and 1 English woman
* 2 Bulgarian men and 1 Bulgarian woman
* 2 Swedish men and 1 Swedish woman
* 2 Irish men and 1 Irish woman

One month later on this beautiful deserted island in the middle of nowhere...

* The 1 Italian man killed the other for the Italian woman

* The 2 French men and the French woman are living happily together in a 'menage a trois'

* The 2 German men have a strict weekly schedule of when they alternate with the German woman

* The 2 Greek men are sleeping with each other and the Greek woman is cleaning and cooking for them

* The 2 English men are waiting for someone to introduce them to the English woman

* The Bulgarian men took one look at the endless ocean, one look at the woman and started swimming.

* The two Swedish men are contemplating the virtues of suicide while the woman keeps on bitching about her body being her own and the true nature of feminism. But at least it's not snowing and the taxes are low.

* The Irish began by dividing their island Northside- Southside and setting up a distillery. They don't remember if sex is in the picture, cause it gets sort of foggy after the first few liters of coconut-whiskey, but at least they know the English aren't getting any.

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Date: Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 15:39:47 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Signing off (ot)
Message:
Nigel: As usual, it has been a real pleasure to...... well, you know! Take good care and have a great 'vacation!' :-)
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Date: Tues, Mar 21, 2000 at 02:14:05 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Signing off (ot)
Message:
Thanks Mike and - as usual - yeah, well - see ya at his lotus carport once again, probably sooner than later...:o)
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Date: Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 15:18:18 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Nigel
Subject: Cainer's win-win philosophy (from the Guardian)
Message:
Always happens - the moment I take shore leave I find something I have to share with you all. This latest piece about the Lord's richest devotee comes from yesterday's Guardian.

>>>>>
(Sat, March 18th. Simon Hoggart’s Diary:)

The Stargazer who came down to earth

A candid confession from Britain's most successful astrologer, Jonathan Cainer. Writing in the increasingly eccentric Daily Express, he said this week: 'Wherever possible,
astrologers avoid making specific predictions about particular events. We find it a lot safer to be vague. This allows us to claim credit when it suits us - and it gets us off the hook if we have misread a horoscope...Out of respect to tradition, I always make a point of speaking in riddles or of burying my very best prophecies in a set of casual seemingly off-hand remarks.'

In other words, he hasn't clue what's going to happen and even if he did get it right you wouldn't understand it. For instance, his advice to me and my fellow Geminis this week included: 'Time is an end in itself. Or rather, experience is.' Amazing what the stars foretell, isn't it? Actually I find Mr Cainer's honesty refreshing. He reminds me the Punch cartoon captioned 'In a major breakthrough for the science of astrology all people born under the sign of Scorpio were yesterday run over by egg lorries.'

The clue to Mr Cainer's success comes below his guote: 'Calls to Jonathan's Zodiac line cost 60p a minute... for a full personal horoscope, send £21.99.' Apparently this is a huge business, earning money that would make Ken Livingstone blush. I shall make a fortune with mv own personal Destiny Line at £1.20 a minute. Callers will hear a recorded message saying:

'The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, but in ourselves. Now get a bleeding life'

>>>>
(Amen to that, I say.)

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Date: Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 15:45:08 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Attention Mel! Copyright material reproduced!(nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 14:35:17 (GMT)
From: dv
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Signing off (ot)
Message:
I've wondered why I keep checking this forum. I skip over a lot of posts, knowing I'm missing some interesting conversations, but also knowing I do not have nearly enough time in my post cult catch up life to invest.

What I'm hoping for is a news flash or a series of them detailing the destruction of m's cult machine, m's going on trial for tax fraud, etc.

I wish there was a section on one of these sites called 'Guru Watch',that would detail all of m's movements, programs, major purchases and initiatives etc.

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Date: Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 08:45:59 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Signing off (ot)
Message:
I have always been a great believer in reincarnation - and as Bowie and Staus Quo will attest, the 'farewell' tour proves more popular every year.

Even Elvis won't lie down and die.

You will be back (like Arnie)with a new and unimaginable musical form... I can predict it !

Call round for Bajans and Buns !

Loaf

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Date: Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 15:10:29 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Loaf
Subject: Signing off (ot)
Message:
Wotcha Loafji,

Should we tell them about the Loaf'n'Larkin CD, or would that be premature? I've got this great idea for a Thomas the Tank Engine parody if you can do a Ringo Starr impersonation.

(Guess who the Fat Controller is...)

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Date: Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 21:24:06 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Signing off (ot)
Message:
'Beep Beep said Thomas'

Let's not say a word - they'll never guess.....

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Date: Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 00:02:51 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: progress not perfection huh?
Message:
I guess we have both learned to 'quit quitting forum'

too funny isn't it? My last eloquest goodbye didn't even
embarrass me - when I came back less than a week later I mean.

Enjoy Nigel. I seem to have a new twist of fate, slight of hand
whatever... around 6 or so at night, something goes wacko sometimes somewhere in the lines and my new super slick modem doesn't like it. So there's hope.

Bye for now.

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Date: Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 22:24:29 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Signing off (ot)
Message:
Thanks for your intelligent and clear postings Nigel. I've found you very encouraging and helpful. All the best and look forward to hearing from you again sometime soon. Hal
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Date: Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 15:29:54 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Hal
Subject: Signing off (ot)
Message:
Thanks Hal (and Selene and everyone else..)

Watching your very public metamorphosis from Haldor the premie to Hal the ex has been fascinating - and I admire the total honesty with which you have handled the changes. (Glad, too, I never jumped down your throat when you first showed up!) I know from other contacts that the forum can be very catalytic in helping premies extricate themselves - but it is especially cheering to see it happen 'live'. Hmm, how does it feel to be a spectator sport ?:-)

Anyway, all the best to you, Hal, and hope you are around when I next look in. Nigel

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Date: Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 01:31:53 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Nigel/Selene
Subject: Nigel/Selene (ot)
Message:
Nigel--
I do know what you mean, the bubble wrap analogy's a good one. A bit like eating chocolate or reading trashy novels too, it's really pleasurable in the right amounts. I allow myself two a day, 2 posts, 2 chocolates, as for trashy novels, I am trying my hand at writing my own!

Selene, saw your post below about Waldorf. It does seem quite airy fairy from what I have heard, and I agree that most older kids (adolescents) need more structure since they are pretty disorganized just from the chemistry in their own bodies. SOme kids I think do thrive in such environments, the problem with some of these theories is the assumption that all kids will thrive in them.

I have big issues with Montessori in that regard. Alot of the high powered DC yuppies want Montessori for their preschool-age children because the theory is that the task of childhood is to become an adult, and so therefore all activity must be 'purposeful'. SO the lingo of Montessori really appeals to alot of high achievers. SOme kids like it, and thrive with it, others do not. I find it to be a little 'rarified.' I mean, sheesh, let the 2 to 5 year olds play for GOd's sake. Let them learn social skills from a sensitive teacher and let them use their imaginations and paint and color and play outside. The purposeful stuff comes soon enough. What I object to is the mom or dad forcing their kid to be in an environment their child clearly hates simply because they have heard it is 'the best' because they already have their child's academic career mapped out--Harvard, Yale, Princeton or if all else fails, god forbid, a second-tier school like Duke or Columbia or Cornell. YUCK!!
Helen, the burned out child care specialist

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Date: Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 02:09:03 (GMT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Nigel/Selene (ot)
Message:
Well Nigel, The evolution of your writings here has a good following and that is plenty enough reason to return.
Cant starve the readership for long!

Helen, The best thing about about early childcare is that it allows the kids to play with other kids. They make such great company for each other (when they arent fighting!)

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Date: Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 16:36:31 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Instructors' Training Manual- written by the Maha?
Message:
Jean-Michel has the Instructors' Training Manual on: http://perso.club-internet.fr/jmkahn/imanual.htm

Is it true that the Maha wrote it himself?
Here's a small taster:

[CAUTION:
All materials and discussions at the training seminar are confidential and must be kept confidential. Breach of confidentiality will lead you to be permanently disqualified from the instructorship program. You are also personally responsible for the safe keeping of all materials and notes. Loss of such items must be immediately brought to the attention of the International Learning Center personnel.]


'I can only question that which I am aware of. The more aware I become, the more I can question. The more I question, the more answers I can receive. It is the process of expand and fill. The bigger the bucket, the more it can hold. At first there is no bucket, then through what we hear, what we perceive, an infinitely small bucket is created.

Through a living master, this bucket acquires the capacity to expand. The more we allow the master to expand it, the more we can fill it. Therefore, the role of the master is not to fill the bucket as much as it is to expand it.

****

I give no wisdom, for I do not want to part with it. ...'

Sound like the Maha to you...?

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Date: Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 21:36:50 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Hahaha I forgot I'm permanently disqulified hahaha
Message:
Thank you for reminding it to me !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Date: Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 19:11:25 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: When speaking, or answering questions...
Message:
From the Instructors' Training Manual, from 'When speaking, or answering questions...':

If you don't know the answer, then it seems obvious that the appropriate answer would be 'I DON'T KNOW'. If you are unsure, then get clear on what the question is. Remember that the question asked is not always the intended question. Try to be aware of what is going on inside the person.

So if a person asks a difficult question, for example about Rawat's excessive wealth, remember, that's not their real question, you must help the poor ignorant aspirant understand what their real question is. Since little aspirant ji is so stupid, they don't understand what they are asking. After all, they haven't received Knowledge yet.

Yes, I remember this bullshit, the common premies heard about it. I remember Rawat operating like that when doing q & a's.

Translation: Evade the question and try to make the person think they are really asking another question. Plant another question as the 'intended question' and then answer your own question. (Can you all spell brainwashing?)

What do you think, is that an accurate translation?

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Date: Mon, Mar 20, 2000 at 18:26:59 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: G
Subject: nice and precise, thanks G ....
Message:
Sounds similar to the tactics that some 'new-age'-type so-called 'therapists' have [of throwing the question back to the questioner until the questioner eventually comes up with something the 'therapist' has an opinion on.] But I think you put it just nice & precise.

Thanks also for your thread below re. ex-cult.org, -
I've come across the following, which, though it has a slightly Xtian angle to it, might ring a few bells with exes, in-betweenies and even current premies.

(I've taken the liberty of emboldening the parts that rang a distinct bell with me, but no doubt there's parts I haven't emphasised which may be just as, - or even more - pertinent to many)






Coercive Persuasive Techniques



Some religious movements (like the Jehovah's Witnesses, Children of God, Unification Church-moonies, and others) are criticized, for not what they believe in but on their behavior/practices on their congregations, which are at times controlling and abusive. The abuse can be Theological, Spiritual, Social & Psychological.

Researchers have identified the following coercive persuasive techniques, and characteristics in such organizations:

1.Authoritarian pyramid structure

2.Charismatic or messianic leader(s) (Messianic meaning they either say they are God, or Prophet, or God's anointed, OR that they alone can interpret the scriptures the way God intended. The leaders are self-appointed.

3.Deception in recruitment and/or fund raising.

4.Isolation: Members are isolated from society and from contact with opposing points of view to prevent critical judgement. Not necessarily physical isolation like on some compound in Waco, but this can be psychological isolation -- the rest of the world is not saved, not Christian, not transformed (whatever) -- the only valid source of feedback and information is the group.

5.Use of mind control techniques (Dr. Robert Jay Lifton's criteria from chapter 22 of his book 'Thought Reform & the Psychology of Totalism' to compare whether the eight psychological and social methods he lists are present in the group at question)

a.Mileu Control: Control of the environment and communication within the environment.

b.Mystical Manipulation: Seeks to promote specific patterns of behavior and emotion. Totalist leaders claim to be agents chosen by God. 'Principles'
(God-centered or otherwise) can be put forcibly and claimed exclusively, so that the group and its beliefs become the only true path to salvation (or enlightenment).

c.Demand for Purity: The world becomes sharply divided into the pure and the impure, the absolutely good (the group/ideology) and the absolutely evil (everything outside the group) one must continually change or conform to the group 'norm'; tendencies towards guilt and shame are used as emotional levers for the group's controlling and manipulative influences.

d.Confession: Unhealthy confession is carried beyond its ordinary religious, legal and therapeutic expressions to the point of becoming a destructive group in itself. Sessions in which one confesses to one's sin are accompanied by patterns of criticism and self-criticism, generally transpiring within small groups with an active and dynamic thrust toward personal change.

e.Sacred Science: The totalist milieu maintains an aura of sacredness around its basic doctrine or ideology, holding it as an ultimate moral vision for the ordering of human existence questioning or criticizing those basic assumptions is prohibited. A reverence is demanded for the ideology/doctrine.

f.Loading the Language: Words are given new meanings -- the outside world does not use the words or phrases in the same way -- it becomes a 'group' word or phrase.

g.Doctrine Over Person: If one questions the beliefs of the group or the leaders of the group, one is made to feel that there is something inherently wrong with them to even question -- it is always 'turned around' on them and the questioner/criticizer is questioned rather than the questions answered directly. The underlying assumption is that doctrine/ideology is ultimately more valid, true and real than any aspect of actual human character or human experience and one must subject one's experience to that 'truth'. The experience of contradiction can be immediately associated with guilt and one is made to feel that doubts are reflections of one's own evil, and when doubt arises, conflicts become intense.

h.Dispensing of Existence: Since the group has an absolute or totalist vision of truth, those who are not in the group are bound up in evil, are not enlightened, are not saved, and do not have the right to exist; impediments to the legitimate being must be pushed away or destroyed. One outside the group may always receive their right of existence by joining the group; fear manipulation -- if one leaves this group, one leaves God or loses their salvation/transformation, or something bad will happen to them; the group is the 'elite', outsiders are 'of the world', 'evil', 'unenlightened', etc.

6.Peer Group Pressure: Members doubt their own convictions when everyone around them acts totally convinced of their beliefs. Pressured to conform.

7.Love Bombing: A beguiling sense of belonging is contrived through flattery, touching, hugging, etc.

8.Removal of Privacy: One is never left alone to think through and sort out confusing experiences. This is enforced specially on a new recruit.

9.Indoctrination: Members are conditioned to stop thinking and to accept without question the 'revealed truths'. Love and trust your leaders, submit and obey to them. They are put in your life by God, so disobeying them is equaled to disobeying God.

10.Confession: Members are maneuvered into sharing innermost secrets. This helps destroy personal egos, induces them to buy the new 'truths'. The secrets could be used against them, later if they try to leave. Public or private confessions could induce a surrendering of self.

11.Guilt: Guilt is used endlessly to force members to work harder and without relief. Guilt about mankind's sorry state and the member's personal 'sins' are used as a lever to force acceptance of 'holier' beliefs.

12.Fear: Spiritual fear is constantly injected to maintain group loyalty. The slightest negative thought is held to be soul threatening. Tragic consequences for self and family are prophesied for anyone leaving the group- If you leave us then you are going to hell!

13.Childlike Dependence: Is promoted by denying opportunities for normal decision making. No Questions are allowed. Total acceptance is mandatory.

14.Elitism: Only the group is righteous; everyone else is satanic, or at best, misguided. e.g. Jehovah's Witnesses believe that they are the one true church, and the kingdom of god. Everyone outside the group are going to hell! We are the only people who are saved! They are the only ones doing God's will- everyone else is in apostasy.

15.Rejection of Old Values: Old life values are constantly denounced to make them seem worse than they were-- even things may be spiritually neutral - Rebaptism.

16.Financial Commitment: A member may burn his bridges to the 'real world' by donating earnings, savings, and possessions to the group. Financial contributions are strictly enforced.

17.Loyalty: Great emphasis on loyalty to the group and its teachings. The lives of members will be totally absorbed into the group's activities. No time to think for themselves.

18.Control: Total control over almost all aspects of the private lives of members. This control could be through communal living, or constant and repetitious teachings on 'How to be a true Christian' or 'being obedient to leadership'. Members are required to seek guidance from their leaders.

19.Dissent: Any dissent or questioning of the group's teachings is discouraged. Criticism in any form is seen as rebellious. There will be an emphasis on authority, unquestioning obedience and submission. This is vigilantly maintained.

20.'Dobbing': Members are required to demonstrate their loyalty to the group in some way. This could be in the form of 'dobbing' on fellow members under the guise of looking out for their 'spiritual welfare'.

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Date: Mon, Mar 20, 2000 at 23:41:10 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Peer and authority pressure - experiments
Message:
(In)famous peer and authority pressure psychological experiments:

First one dealt with peer pressure. The subjects were told it was an experiment dealing with something or other. They were not told that the 9 other people in the room were in on the experiment. Cards were held up, showing two bars, one clearly shorter than the other. The other 'subjects' were asked which one was longer. The other 'subjects' all said that the longer one was shorter. The real subject was asked lasted. Many went along with the group.

Second one dealt with authority pressure. The real subjects were told that it was an experiment on motivation or something, that the 'subject' in the other room would answer questions. If the 'subject' got the wrong answer, he/she would be shocked by the real subject. The questioner would say if the answer was right and say what level of shock to administer, which kept increasing. A significant number of the real subjects went past the point where screams were heard and the dial was in the red area with XXX's. In reality, there was no shock, the 'subject' was faking screams.

Scary. Needless to say, the real subjects in the second experiment were traumatized, even when told what was really going on. On a more positive note, many of them did stand up to the 'questioner' and stop before the 'shocks' seemed deadly.

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Date: Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 00:33:01 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Yes, very Accurate
Message:
This is what Maharaji has always done when asked a question, the rare, rare, rare times he even allows someone to ask a question. But you are right, if the question is difficult, the instructor or Maharaji is to just change the subject, but you do it by making the questioner feel they are stupid, confused, so out of it that they don't even know what they want or need to know, etc. For a person who is susceptible to the programming that is the aspirant process, it is a very powerful device. That, and the fact that usually the person is asking the question in a group that is generally hostile, at least certainly disapproving, of somebody asking a disparaging question. Multiply this by 100 if Maharaji is being asked the question. It would take an extremely confident, self-assured person to trust their own judgment and thoughts in that situation, and even then, he or she wouldn't get a straight answer.
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Date: Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 19:28:39 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Love your 'translation G'....nicely done! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 19:27:26 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Well put, G -- that's it exactly
Message:
I think that those of us who grew up in the 60s / 70s we were particularly prone to playing this game. It wasn't just Maharaji, we were all doing it. Ask someone a question and you just might get them staring at you in 'knowing silence' or telling you that 'It's not ABOUT x, it's really ABOUT y... ' (Feminists really went to town with that turn of phrase). Or you might get your guru coming back to you and telling you what's 'really' going on with you, would you care to listen?

And all along you're set up by Ram Dass et al. to think that you've got to be open. You can't just play the 'western linear mind game' and ignore 'the one'. Sure, you asked a question, a question came out of your mouth, but what's the REAL question? What's the ONE question you REALLY care about?

In some ways the whole process reminds me of that old, famous Nichols and May routine where he plays the astronaut calling his jewish mama from Cape Canaveral (or maybe outer space!). Mama reduces him to a whimpering, infantile state by the end of the call. 'Surrender to the child inside....' That kind of shit.

Yech! How embarrassing!

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Date: Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 20:47:13 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Nichols and May routine - not familiar with it nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Mar 20, 2000 at 00:26:56 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Well you should be
Message:
It's hilarious. Nichols is in a space capsule getting ready to leave the launch pad (I think) at Cape Canaveral. Mom calls and lays one guilt trip after another on him. Eventually he buckles and starts talking babby-talk with her -- just what she wanted!
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Date: Mon, Mar 20, 2000 at 16:47:23 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: one small step for a man ... but for the mama?(nt)
Message:
one small step for a man ... but for the mama?(nt)
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Date: Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 14:46:55 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: G
Subject: G -it got lopped soon after I posted
Message:
Check the Mel Bourne thread in the inactive index for 'Non-action is demoralizing' for my belated response to one of your posts.

Stonor

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Date: Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 20:43:30 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: the tread below
Message:
Excerpts of what you wrote in the tread below are in italics:

Yes, I'm beginning to get the idea about what work is being done here. Also really beginning to understand why many people here are so tired of any mention of the word 'God.' it does tend to keep some of the key issues obscure, and contribute to many people's confusion, as well as increase the potential for them to fall for m or someone like him.

I agree that 'God' is a problematic word. See entry God at www.dictionary.com. It has a lot of connotations, for example of authoritarian power. It has such a gutteral, tribal, primitive sound to it, like 'Thor'. It sounds like the name of an alpha male caveman. People often pretend to be representatives of this authoritarian power in order to gain power over others.

It's interesting to note that Rawat, when talking about his wife's aneurism, said something like 'With all my worldly power, I was so powerless over the situation'. That's paraphrased, but 'worldly power' is exactly what he said.

The word also represents a package deal of beliefs about 'whatever it is' that got us here.

One part of the deal is 'all-powerful' (the Alpha Male). There are problems with this concept, for example, it implies that God causes war. Not such a nice God, eh? If God is good (another part of the package), than how can there be evil, considering that God is all-powerful? One view of evil is 'not doing the will of God'. It's quite a contradiction. So what does all-powerful mean? Prehaps in actual practice it means 'Do what you're told by me, the representative of God, or you'll get punished.' The punishments can be real or perceived (like 'go to Hell' or 'rotten vegetables'). Maybe the word 'power' is simply viewing things from our limited human perspective, maybe it taps into the 'follow the leader' impulse/instinct.

Especially now, people mean different things when they use the word God. I agree that the meaning of the word has gotten too stretched. I think part of the problem is the false dichotomy between 'God' and 'nothing', so people cling into the word 'God'. Many people think that you must either 1) believe the entire package deal of the attributes of God or 'whatever it is' or 2) none of it, even the exact opposite.

(repeated my comments about how protecting the environment is not a waste of time)

Couldn't agree with you more on this. And I really can't believe that he discourages action to such an extreme degree. Did you see that long thread on exercise a while ago? I heard a quote on the radio (a David Suzuki program) that you may have read already in one of my posts here, but I put it again in the 'subject.' If I remember correctly it was from an environmentalist. It's interesting to realize that concerns about the environment came up long ago. Maybe this is a form of 'practical' clairvoyance. Ibsen wrote a play about industrial pollution called, ironically of course, 'An Enemy of the People.' m seems to propagate a form of mental/spiritual pollution. I researched Ibsen a bit once for a highschool lit course I taught, and found some fascinating quotes. I'll share a few with you.

'And what is it, then, that I have lived through and that has inspired me? The range has been wide. In part, I have been inspired by something I felt on rare occasions and only in my best moments stirring within me, vividly alive, great and beautiful. I have been inspired by this because I wanted to confront it and make it part of myself. But I have also been inspired by the opposite, by what appears on introspection as the dregs and sediment of one's nature. Writing has in this case been to me like a bath from which I have risen feeling cleaner, healthier, and freer.'

(on) . . .his lack of interest in 'special revolutions, revolutions in externals, in the political sphere . . . . What is really wanted,' he declared, 'is a revolution of the spirit of man.'

Don't tell anyone, but he's on my personal (Bucke) list too.

Ok, I won't tell anyone.

Did you ever get any feedback on your question about 'ex-cult?' You mention that you are a recent ex. Can I ask how long you were a premie? It doesn't seem to be as much of a problem for you, as for some others, to use the the old fashioned term 'God' or 'whatever it is,' so I'm a bit curious.

No, didn't get any feedback, maybe I should just submit updates to these ex-cult sites myself? I figured the site owners would like the honor, but I'm willing to do the grunt work.

I was a premie for a long time, I 'received Knowledge' around the mid-70s. It's not that Rawat didn't have a lot of negative influence on me, he did. I just didn't want to adopt another belief system to get away from the cult. Maybe if I was willing to, I would have totally left a long time ago. Now I don't follow any package deal belief systems, and that's ok with me. When I use the word 'God' (which might be better not to use, at least here) or 'whatever it is', I'm not sure what I mean, because I don't know much. But I believe there is a Truth, I don't think we come from nothing, also that life has real meaning.

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Date: Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 22:10:19 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: G
Subject: the 'G' word and
Message:
Thanks for responding G, but

Well, OK, you told everyone here, but just don't let Jim see it!

Good discussion about 'God,' but watch what you say about those Scandinavian Gods - even part-Vikings can get touchy about these things! Actually, I really enjoyed reading about the Gods of Valhalla, just wish I could remember more of it right now - that was almost 15 years ago in a very foreign library.

This is the part you wrote that most intrigues me:

If God is good (another part of the package), than how can there be evil, considering that God is all-powerful? One view of evil is 'not doing the will of God'. It's quite a contradiction.

I've read on this question in a number of places, someone even raised it in a 'letter to the editor' recently (wild, I thought) and a friend asked me the same thing most earnestly once. I thought, 'How the hell am I supposed to know - I'm not God!' But it did get me thinking on it. I could take an easy out (not that you're asking me, but anyways) and refer to another Python-related film, 'Time Bandits.' At the end of it, when the'Supreme Being' and the little boy are sweeping up and disposing of the 'evil,' the little boy notices a small chunk they missed and can't understand why 'The Supreme Being' leaves it. 'The Supreme Being, says, 'I think it has something to do with free will.'

How's that G? And I really liked the 'I think' part. Another fun movie to check out some night when the forum is slow!

There's also another related take on it in another book I'm reading, that describes 'evil' as 'enslavement.' Very relevant to discussions of m and his ilk, no? Of course there's more, but that's the central idea.

My seeds are screaming at me to get them started - the full moon is coming and so is spring!

Stonor

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Date: Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 01:47:11 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Time Bandits
Message:
...another Python-related film, 'Time Bandits.' At the end of it, when the 'Supreme Being' and the little boy are sweeping up and disposing of the 'evil,' the little boy notices a small chunk they missed and can't understand why 'The Supreme Being' leaves it. 'The Supreme Being', says, 'I think it has something to do with free will.'
... I really liked the 'I think' part.

I remember that line. Yes, it's a fun film.

That's an explanation I've heard, that 'God' created free will. Well, it does make things more interesting.

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Date: Mon, Mar 20, 2000 at 19:25:15 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Keep honking while I reload - God ...
Message:
There's a quote from the book of Isiah (45:7) that goes:

'I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:
I the LORD do all these
things.





There's also another quote from 'God' that you won't find in the Bible, it goes:

'My wife keeps complaining I never listen to her ...or something like that.'




Of course, the rest of humanity's supposed to be looking for ...



SALVATION

The next morning the old nun asked Sister Magdalene how
the Saturday night bath had gone. 'Oh, sister,' said the young nun dreamily. 'I've been saved.'

'Saved? And how did that fine thing come about?' asked the old nun.

'Well, when Fr. John was soaking in the tub, he asked me to wash him, and while I was washing him he guided my hand down between his legs where he said the Lord keeps the Key to Heaven.

'Did he now?' said the old nun evenly.

Sister Magdalene continued, 'And Fr. John said that if the Key to Heaven fitted my lock, the portals of Heaven would be opened to me and I would be assured of salvation and eternal peace And then Father John guided his Key to Heaven into my lock.'

'Is that a fact,' said the old nun even more sternly.

'At first it hurt terribly, but Fr. John said the pathway to salvation was often painful and that the glory of God would soon swell my heart with ecstasy. And it did, it felt so good being saved.'

'That wicked old Devil,' said the old nun. 'He told me it was Gabriel's Horn, and I've been blowing it for 40 years!'

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Date: Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 14:52:14 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: and J-M Freud, there's a question for you
Message:
There's a question for you in my 'terrifyingly insane booklet' post in your 'New stuff at my website' thread down below, if you have a minute.

Stonor

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Date: Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 15:04:48 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: and J-M Freud, there's a question for you
Message:
Guess I lucked out finding anything that made any sense in it, not that they've noticed it, obviously.
Do these instructors get paid, Jean-Michel?

Please forgive my ignorance, but m-land is one place I'm quite content to be ignorant of.

(m-land seems to be the one place where ignorance is 'bliss' - not)

Some of them are (at least they were 3 years ago, and not a new situation) actually paid by EV, some are not. They have various status and various functions, ranging from (very) 'private secretary' to intl fund-raisings/money-racket manager to 'inspiration' provider for communities, to 'special ushers' (security) manager, etc. Some are doing this full-time, some are self supported and work, or retired.....


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Date: Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 17:23:49 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Thanks for the info J-M! (nt)
Message:
Thanks.
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Date: Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 09:06:39 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Dowload great stuff for the weekend's reading!!!
Message:
Major update on my download page, including the EV Today section, and lots of Indian stuff.

The 'Soul Rush' section is being revised, and not online for the moment. Save your old files if you want to keep the old version:-))

Download the EV-DLM Papers website's content,

and have it on your computer's hard disk (PC or Mac). No need to be online to browse through the website's pages.

Genuine documents on EV and DLM, from 1962 to 2000. All the truth on Prempal Rawat's and Elan Vital's heritage!!

All 5 archives have been checked and virus free!!

Save them to 5 regular 1.4Mb disks (PC or Mac), and share them with your friends.

Satisfaction and bliss guaranteed !!!!! No devotion asked:-)))

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Date: Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 05:03:25 (GMT)
From: And On Anand Ji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Dowload great stuff for the weekend's reading!!!
Message:
I saw the 1962 piece (Antidote). Nice work, Jean-Michel. This is the kind of documentation that's needed, IMO. Thank you.

AOAJi

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Date: Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 05:59:54 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: And On Anand Ji
Subject: Precisely about Antidote: toxic materials, hahaha
Message:
I haven't finished scanning and pocessing the document, but now that I'm thinking about it, it clearly shows how the Rawat's teaching is empty. There is absolutely NOTHING interesting in this booklet, except PURE BS.

Printed materials in EV have never been too common, and one would expect to find some interesting stuff in them. And what you find out is that those precious and rare documents are filled with that sort of ridiculous theories!!!! Even 40 years ago. Nothing has changed!!

And the worse about it is that when you're a premie, you find all this enlightening, wonderful, great, gives you a blissful experience. This has to be toxic materials IMO.

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Date: Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 21:56:09 (GMT)
From: AOAJi
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Precisely about Antidote: toxic materials, hahaha
Message:
the worse about it is that when you're a premie, you find all this enlightening, wonderful, great, gives you a blissful experience. This has to be toxic materials IMO.


It's just -- you know -- horse manure. Or, as they
say in those more academic discussions, a tautology.

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Date: Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 02:54:14 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Now I remember the kind of premies I hated
Message:
Janice Wilson: Appreciation
From Baldwinsville, New York

Waking up this morning
I found that I was breathing
Breathing!
I am alive!
What pleasure
I love being alive
and simple enough to see it :)

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Date: Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 13:25:46 (GMT)
From: a-z
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The typical Janice Wilson type
Message:
A teetering wreckage left over from the dancing mala days when she left her eggs at the feet of the master and any hopes at a relationship were dashed by the all consuming lord.
Left alone and ageing by the breath, she trys to find happiness in noticing the breath as if it is waking up to life.
sad. coffee is so much cheaper.And 'carpe diem' written on the coffee cup would cover the 'sieze the day' reminder without the breath vampire guru needed at all.
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Date: Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 11:50:09 (GMT)
From: Charlie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: the politics of hating premies
Message:
Jim,

do you still have any social dealings with any of the premies you used to know in the 'old days' or perhaps any premie you may have met since you went ex?

My ongoing relationships with premies in the real world seems to effect the way that I react to premies who post on the forum.

Charlie

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Date: Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 16:50:26 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Charlie
Subject: My local premie friends are VERY laidback
Message:
They're more like gays in the U.S. army. They don't mention Maharaji and they don't expect to be harrassed either. Doesn't mean I don't just means they're slippery like quicksilver. I try to raise the subject; they avoid it. I push, they step to the side. A lot like that.

Other premies from my past that I've looked up or run into who are still into it are usually more willing to talk -- once. Then they clam up, tell me to get a life, that kind of thing.

I ran into Linda, this one premie I used to live with in various ashrams. She and her new husband, Kieth, were at the mall. We sat down at the food court. Kieth, a very late model premie who only got initiated at Linda's insistance a few years ago, knew absolutely nothing about m's past. Interesting that he, an otherwise educated and curious enough fellow, was able to get lulled into having no questions of any substance for his new cult-lite guru. But he hadn't. He obviously learned early enough that there was really no place for them in his and his bride's 'devotional life'.

Anyways, I started telling Kieth some of the highlights and Linda couldn't take it, went for a walk around the mall. Kieth sat there in pained discomfort. Should he run to find his wife or ask me more (he was understandably amazed at some of what I had to tell him)? We talked for a few minutes, then he went to find his wife. Keith's biggest complaint, given half a second to tell it, was that Linda, like any good, honest premie, repeatedly reminded him that, in her life Maharaji came first. Just don't forget that.

I gave Kieth the web site address. He said he'c check it out late some night after Linda'd gone to bed.

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Date: Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 19:57:15 (GMT)
From: Charlie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Laidback is the premie way to be
Message:
It's probably true to say my premie friends are also laid back but that's the posture for today. But it's inevitable that the hot topic comes up eventually.

To try to minimise friction between myself and old friends it has been suggested that we could simply stop talking about M&K but I find it very difficult if not impossible to do. When you have shared so much together and revealed so many deep feelings with somebody it is very weird to shuffle back to shallow teritory. It feels very contrived and awkward. I have considered severing contacts with premies but I have written that off as madness on my part. I'm a middle aged family man and can't exactly develop a new social group overnight, besides, my children and their children are often friends and want to see each other so we're always being drawn together. We're stuck with it and are trying to find a diplomatic solution to our differences.

I had a long phone conversation with an old friend the other day. He had been to see Rajaji and had not been too impressed by the event. As the discussion rolled on it was clear that he had some serious doubts about what he called the externals of knowledge. Communication seemed freer than it had been for ages which was very pleasing for me but the conversation ran aground when my friend realised that I had not only chucked M&K but I had abandoned ALL spirituality. He could not believe that I had sunk that low. I could feel him recoil at the thought of NO alternative crutch for support.

He called on me to relax my arrogant point of view just a little as it was too much for him to take. I really wanted to oblige him as an old friend but just couldn't see where to draw the new line. The way I see it is if I give an inch I'm back up to my neck in shit.

This situation mirrors itself on this forum, you just can't afford to slip back into the shitpile because you try and accomodate somebody else's sensitive belief.

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Date: Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 20:03:06 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Charlie
Subject: Well, I'll be your friend, Charlie
Message:
Charlie,

It's a sad, sad fact of our lives that we made some bad choices. Waking up in a bad marriage might be something like this. Maybe that's why I tihnk it would be so cool for Maharaji to fess up and pull a belated Krishnamurti. That alone would heal the tragic rift between the premies and their one-time cell mates. That alone would free the premies from acting like cowardly snakes.

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Date: Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 12:30:57 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What's so bad about that one Jim?
Message:
I'm sorry Jim but I don't get it.There was no mention of Rawat there. No mention of nollij either. It sounds like the sort of thing anyone waking up on a sunny day and feeling happy could say. Plaese explain what your problem is with it?
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Date: Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 18:16:32 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Hal, it's the simple insinuation
Message:
Hal: It's the insinuation that the 'simplicity' and experience of 'breath' came from M. If this person had written this particular piece on another forum, I don't think Jim or anyone else would have taken note of it being cult-speak.

Lot's of people woke up this morning and were happy to be alive. M didn't 'bless' any of them with that experience. It's the insinuation, that he did, that gets some of us.....

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Date: Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 18:15:35 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: What bugs me is the paen to being 'simple'
Message:
This chick's sitting on the same, sunny, sliipery slope that leads to being a smiley-faced happy clapper. 'Oh Joy! Oh Joy! Maybe you've got a taste for that kind of cultivated, fake 'childlikeness' but I don't.
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Date: Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 13:42:48 (GMT)
From: Charlie
Email: charlie@demont.co.uk
To: Hal
Subject: bitterly twisted
Message:
Hal

I think what is sad for many of us is that we started off with childlike innocence but having been through the experience of M&K we have become bitterly twisted. Exactly the opposite of what was originally expected!

Whenever I hear or read something like that quote I normally regard it as just so much waffle and move on to the next thing. But if the sentiment springs from the mouth of a premie I just know there's another meaning lurking between the lines.

It was the baite to catch the innocent child that I once was.

Charlie

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Date: Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 12:23:18 (GMT)
From: Hey Fungulahead
Email: Si parli Italiano
To: Jim
Subject: Now I remember 'I'm a Jerk!!
Message:
Whats your point Goof boy? No ones allowed to be HAPPY????
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Date: Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 07:00:25 (GMT)
From: Harry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Ho hum
Message:
What's you point Jimbo? Life sucks?
I was out riding my bike yesterday, and I'm standing up on the pedals, flying around a bend on a little mountain track, and the miracle of it all struck me like a ton of bricks. How do I put this so you'll understand....the way every muscle and nerve conspires to give you the desired outcome, eg, just getting around that bend. It's a fucking miracle, and Janice is right, it helps to be simple enough to see it.
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Date: Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 20:47:11 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Harry
Subject: 'Simplicity ' is just another word for 'ignorance'
Message:
What you found so exciting was, in fact, complexity. The more you know, the more interesting it all seems.
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Date: Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 02:33:10 (GMT)
From: Harry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: 'Simplicity ' is just another word for 'ignorance'
Message:
Yeah, the more we know of the universe and it's complexities, the more in awe we can be. That's the type of understanding that come from dissecting a rat. It's very interesting and all, but that's not what we're talking of. You can look at a flower and think, 'yeah that's kinda pretty', and you can look at a flower with you heart as well as your eyes and feel a big, big smile spreading over your face. You're gunna luv this. It can be 'felt', and this is where simplicity comes in. You can't do this with your intellect. I'm almost inspired to write a poem, but not quite.
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Date: Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 21:17:23 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Bang on there again, Jim (nt)
Message:
q
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Date: Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 05:30:48 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Now I remember the kind of premies I hated
Message:
Are you teasing the nuts again Jim?

I'm coming to 'hate' m and others like him for what they are doing to people. It's evil and blasphemous, (im)pure and simple(minded). Can't call it anything else, and there's absolutely no reason to.

I checked the dictionary - 'blasphemous' should be OK.

Stonor

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Date: Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 10:09:32 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Now I remember the kind of premies I hated
Message:
Stonor old chap. Do you really know what you're talking about?
You have never been an aspirant or a premie . I think your understanding of these issues is purely conceptual. There is an enormous amount of emotion involved, which I don't believe is possible to understand from the observers position . Hal
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Date: Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 14:26:51 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: and maybe I do somewhat
Message:
Hi Hal,

I might not know about these things to the same degree as exes do, but I think I have been learning. As a non-anything, I have almost always felt patronized, judged and looked down upon as somehow ignorant, and excluded by initiates and members of religious organizations (with wonderful exceptions to this generalization). This has made me angry at times, but I have also learned through many various experiences, that my anger comes from pain. Those on the inside have always tried to push me to become 'one of them' as well. Again the devisiveness of something that should be bringing us together. I disagree with the absoluteness of your opinion, Hal.

Actually, I don't really hate anyone, but I do dislike extremely what some people do to others.

I think I've been quite consistent on these issues, but I find that one of the greatest weaknesses of this kind of medium (the web/email) is that it moves so fast that sometimes we miss things - fire back too quickly, and we don't always get the time to connect various threads together over time and reflect. Maybe I'll get used to it or find a way to minimize these effects.

Stonor

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Date: Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 17:11:09 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: I believe you DO understand, Stonor
Message:
Hal to Stonor:

Stonor old chap. Do you really know what you're talking about?
You have never been an aspirant or a premie . I think your understanding of these issues is purely conceptual. There is an enormous amount of emotion involved, which I don't believe is possible to understand from the observers position .

Stonor to Hal:

I might not know about these things to the same degree as exes do, but I think I have been learning. As a non-anything, I have almost always felt patronized, judged and looked down upon as somehow ignorant, and excluded by initiates and members of religious organizations (with wonderful exceptions to this generalization). This has made me angry at times, but I have also learned through many various experiences, that my anger comes from pain. Those on the inside have always tried to push me to become 'one of them' as well. Again the devisiveness of something that should be bringing us together. I disagree with the absoluteness of your opinion, Hal.

The fact of the matter is that there have been many who have been able to understand this phenomenon of cults and cultic involvement without ever having been members of cults themselves, and some of these people have gone on to be noted 'experts' in the field, helping many others to break free from whatever cults they were involved in.
They've done so by being able to observe as you have, that the dynamics of a cult's mind manipulation and deception are prevalent in other groups or forms of social organization as well, just more concentrated and harmful to the individual in a cult setting.
There IS a certain 'absoluteness' as you put it, to Hal implying that only premies and exes can have a 'feel' for the discussion that goes on these pages.
It may also be a remaining vestige of his cultic identity telling him, that only those people who have 'felt the feeling' can comment on M and his cult. It simply isn't true.
I believe you've proven that the insight and commentary of those who have never been involved in the cult and nor do they have any intention of EVER becoming part of the cult...can be very helpful on these pages.
And that said...I thank you for your posts. You've been interesting and fun to read!

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Date: Mon, Mar 20, 2000 at 02:54:33 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: I believe you DO understand, Stonor
Message:
Hello Joey,

I apologize that I have not thanked you for your kind words before now. This thread has pushed a lot of painful buttons for me and has had a somewhat cathartic effect. No doubt much needed.

Good to have met you.

Stonor

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Date: Tues, Mar 21, 2000 at 15:32:32 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: I believe you DO understand, Stonor
Message:
Good to have met you as well, Stonor.
And I'm glad that if you had some painful buttons pushed in this thread, that you at least had that catharsis.
(Personally, I often feel like I'm still waiting for mine to happen. Catharsis, that is. I've had plenty of buttons pushed, but I'm still waiting for that catharsis :)
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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 02:22:54 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Homeopathy
Message:
Ever tried homeopathy? It's a great catalyst/facilitator for catharsis. (also a factor in what I described)
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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 04:25:53 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Homeopathy
Message:
Homeopathy for catharsis? How?

Could you fill me in a little?

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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 06:11:27 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Homeopathy? Give me a bit more time.
Message:
I want to do the question (and answer) justice.
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Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 07:34:28 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Homeopathy? Give me a bit more time.
Message:
Kewl. Whenever you're ready and feel like it.

Thanks.

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Date: Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 07:10:17 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Stonor, do you hate the premies?
Message:
I just hate the bigshots because they're part of the deception. The rest can either see it or not if they're shown.
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Date: Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 14:33:50 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: No, I don't hate even the rude premies
Message:
Hi Runamok,

I think I just answered your question in my response to Hal. Yes, the deception is a big part of what I dislike about those who want to dominate, control and manipulate others to their own end for whatever reason, even if just to feel that they are right and the other is wrong. This doesn't happen only in the context of religions or cults.

Stonor

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Date: Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 22:42:07 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: See any of that on this forum?
Message:
'Yes, the deception is a big part of what I dislike about those who want to dominate,control and manipulate others to their own end for whatever reason, even if just to feel they are right and the other is wrong. This doesn't happen only in the context of religions or cults'.

Stonor

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Date: Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 23:00:08 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: See any of that on this forum?
Message:
Honestly - not really. That's one reason why I like it here. Haven't found this type of open discussion on these topics anywhere in my life. I even checked into the Unitarians, when they were discussing 'The Green Knight.' I mentioned 'faith'- one of their f-words it turned out. They don't flame, but I got the message and never went back.

That's also why I don't like to criticize the flaming, - it's an indication of the high level freedom of speech allowed. Do you see any of what I described here?

Stonor

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Date: Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 00:17:27 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Even more honestly ...
Message:
I'm sure that you remember my first few posts with Deputy Dog, Hal. I felt it then very strongly. Also in Mirror's posts, and I'm sure there are a few others, but at this point I tend to check out threads and people who interest me, kinda like in the real world. I prefer to keep those negative vibes out of my life whenever I can (like the Donald Sutherland character in 'Catch 22' I think it was). I find that that energy sucks like a vampire.

BTW I appreciated your post earlier. It gave me a chance to say what I did and I don't often get the opportunity, although as I mentioned, it's out there all the time.

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Date: Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 22:27:19 (GMT)
From: A Master Poet
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Useless
Message:
Maharaji is quite useless, and uncouth.
Says it's wrong to feel; wrong to trust your heart.
Wrong to think; you just follow his untruth,
Where bondage of illusion is the art.
His teachings are deceitful, he's a cad,
Quite the worst Guru I've never had.
He says he'll show us God, but God! he's sad,
His whole life just a lie; false; rotten; bad.
He said he's God; I say he is a lie,
A wealthy no-one poncing off conned folks.
He can not tell the truth, nor meet your eye,
Nor write a decent poem, nor laugh at jokes.
Prempal Rawat, you horrid little man,
Your game is up; you're headed for the can.
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Date: Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 00:24:12 (GMT)
From: Clap, Clap, Clap
Email: None
To: A Master Poet
Subject: Useless: Correct: Clap, clap, clap....nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 22:14:05 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Happy St. Patty's Day!
Message:
Top o' the evening to ye all. The little wee ones and woodfolk all wish ye a very Happy St. Patty's Day indeed, and remember to designate a driver who isn't full in his cups as they say.

Well just don't sing that damn Unicorn song--remember that one the Clancy Brothers used to sing???

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Date: Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 19:05:32 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Happy Belated St. Patty's Day from Ireland
Message:
Hi Helen. Just got around to the forum a couple of days late. Saw the St. Pat's parade in Cork. The Americans make a much bigger deal out of it than they do here. There were several contingents from Boston in this parade. The folks in the pubs did get out of control though. It was a rather loud night!

How are you doing?

Much love, Marianne

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Date: Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 13:41:29 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: eb/Selene
Subject: To eb and selene
Message:
Selene--looks like ye have an admirer, fair lassie, whose got the sap a runnin' in his veins! Gee, it's enough to make a woman swoon a little, not harm in that eh?

I want to hear more about what you have to say on the Waldorf issue. it's too rigid in it's own 'spiritual' way--kinda culty? I have heard mixed things about it during my child care specialist days.

I went to this amazing exhibit at the National Museum of Women's Art yesterday. One painting is of a woman sitting in a chair mending somethign and she is starting to turn into the chair, her face is painted with the pattern of the chair's upholstery and her arms are chair arms. it's really disturbing! Turning into one's house from doing so much housework--aieee! -the artist was a Mexican woman who is very famous there, and there is a show of alot of her paintings, they are magical and surrealistic but mostly very beautiful.

I had never been to this museum before, the bldg itself is beautiful and very feminine. My friends and I just wanted to stay there forever but had to run back to our children, and be responsible even though we got a little liquored up at lunch. I have decided that having a little drinkie poo at lunch is how me Irish ancestors withstood housework and raising children and dealing with their men!! hee hee. A little visit to the museums is really good for me soul, nice talkin to ye ladies.

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Date: Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 02:55:42 (GMT)
From: Harry
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: To Hellen
Message:
Hi Helen, a belated happy St Pat's day to ya. I'm a Wardolf (Rudolf Steiner) parent. My little boy goes to the Little Yarra Steiner School Have a squizze
I tell ya, it's a great school. The more I see of it and understand it's philosophy, the more I love it. They nurture the kids and talk to the whole child, not just the intellect. But having said that, let me say this; the kids do very well academically. The kid with the highest VCR marks last year was a Steiner kid. They try to keep the magic of childhood going. They also teach according to the child's capabilities. For instance, a beauracrats can set a curiculam, and part of that may be to teach 11 year olds how to open and run a cheque account. By the end of the year and after many hours, they may be starting to get it. But if it was taught to them at say 12 year olds, they would get it straight away. The school is very good at this.
They also make learning fun. If I was a kid again, I'd want to go to a Steiner School. It's not for every one though.
Cheers
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Date: Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 06:27:20 (GMT)
From: Jackie
Email: None
To: Harry
Subject: To Hellen
Message:
Dear Harry,

I was checking out schools the other day and I went to a Christian School in the neighbourhood. The principal told me that the Wardolf School in the area was for high achievers.

I was really surprised as when I have been to the Wardolf Craft Fair on occasion I've noticed many laid-back,artsy & dare I say, old hippies doing the parent fundraising thing.

Glad you are happy with your children's school - it's important.

Jackie

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Date: Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 07:26:10 (GMT)
From: Harry
Email: None
To: Jackie
Subject: Steiner
Message:
Hi Jackie, never heard about Steiner Schools being for high achievers before. You're right about a lot of the parents being old hippies. I've made a lot of friends amongst the parents. I could rave on for hours about how much I like the school. Zac's teacher is from America, and all us Aussie males have secretly got the hots for her. Here's a good Steiner link Check it out
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Date: Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 23:02:18 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: waldorf schools (ot)
Message:
Hi Helen
Lost your email address somehow. All I really know about Waldorf
schools is from a friend who taught elementary school for years
both private schools and public.

She retired a few years ago, but decided to teach again and
accepted a position at a Waldort school last year. She quit this year. She really disliked it. She said it was OK for very young kids/ but she taught 4th grade age and said their 'no text-book' and child as center of universe approach was intense.

It's hard to explain. The overall impression I got was that the kids were kind of 'let loose' to discover the world. very unstructured. I suppose I should let her explain it...I might not
be doing a good job. And, I am not at all that type of person, I disagree and think older kids need guidance and structure so it's hard for me, I've seen too many of those kids after they grow up!
(me for example)

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Date: Mon, Mar 20, 2000 at 18:10:02 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: waldorf schools (ot)
Message:
anti waldorf site
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Date: Mon, Mar 20, 2000 at 18:17:16 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: all
Subject: that link doesn't work let me try again
Message:
http://www.dandugan.com/waldorf/

waldorf

I hope this one works but it is a site of people who do not like waldorf. I have no personal experience with it but am disturbed enough by the cult vibes I get that I am turned off.

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Date: Tues, Mar 21, 2000 at 02:33:52 (GMT)
From: Harry
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: that link doesn't work let me try again
Message:
Hi, I had a quick look at your linked site and will check it out further later.
I don't believe all the Steiner philosophy. I don't believe in reincarnation. I have my own belief system that is probably wrong but it works for me. There are some Steiner parents who believe it all, hook line and sinker, but then there's lots of people out there with a propensity for adopting someone else's beliefs, be they Christ, Budda, Maharaji etc. For some it's just part of the journey. There's fundamentalists everywhere, including this website.
That website you linked talks of the way science is taught. I was never interested in science. One day I went to a parent's day at the school, and we spent some time with the science teachers. I came away from that meeting inspired, and if I had been taught like that, then who knows.
The bottom line for me is that I wouldn't send my child to a government school, and I definitely wouldn't send him to a Christian school, so what's left? That's how I arrived at Steiner. But having said that, they do turn out happy, well-adjusted kids with a connection to the natural world. Importantly, these kids do well in the world when they leave school. But they are community schools and only as strong as the community that creates and supports then.
And gerry, cultish behaviour is to do with the individual. There's fundamentalist Steiner parents for sure, but most of us have our own belief systems and take it all with a grain of salt, but are in overall agreement with the direction they're going in. If you don't like it and you can't change it, then simple, go somewhere else. It ain't for everyone.
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Date: Mon, Mar 20, 2000 at 19:58:38 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: jc@jethro666.screaming.net
To: Susan
Subject: Steiner's are the lowest of the low
Message:
I sent my daughter to a Steiner kindergarden.

My daughter told us(myself and my dughter's mother) one day that the teacher was regularly hitting a certain child. We were shocked as we believed that Steiner schools did not engage in corporal punishment. We brought up concerns with the teachers,

To cut a long story short, my daughter was expelled from the school and both myself and the mother were 'shunned' by the Steiner community.

Here's a quote from Robert Ogilvie, who was the person in charge of the school. 'If my 2-year old adopted daughter was to make disturbamce in a supermarket queue, I would have no hesitation in hitting her around the ear'.

Here's another quote from Pat Hague(the hitting teacher) as reprted by another teacher ina teachers' meeting:
'If I am not allowed to hit, I will resign'.

Of course, since many people regard Pat Hague, as an angel, she was not sacked and is still there.

I Have quite a long document detailing those few months of wrangling with them. If you're interested I'll send it to you. You can email me at the above address if you are interested.

These people are ok as long as you don't criticise anything. If you do it is classic witch-hunt stuff. Sound familiar?

This stuff has happened to loads of people.

Regards Jethro


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Date: Tues, Mar 21, 2000 at 02:07:25 (GMT)
From: Harry
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Steiner's are the lowest of the low
Message:
So your daughter was expelled because you had concerns about a child being hit? Sounds a bit out there, but assuming your version is correct, then I'd have to say that Pat Hague and Robert Ogilvie wouldn't get a job cleaning the toilets at our school. I'm no expert on Steiner education, but each school is a separate, independent entity and is only as good as the core group of people running it(and the parents of course). At our school there is a Parent Conversation Day, where any issues that parents have can be discussed with the teaching staff. Hitting children is illegal by law in Oz, so it's not really an issue. But young kids can be very wilful. Say a child has a hammer over another child's head and looks like hitting him. He doesn't listen to the teacher. Would it be all right to slap the back of his hand to get his attention? BTW, I have never hit my boy, nor has anybody else.
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Date: Tues, Mar 21, 2000 at 07:02:45 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Harry
Subject: Steiner's are the lowest of the low
Message:
Once I was a parents-teachers meeting. A parent got up and was very upset because she had been 20 minutes late to pick up her 5 year old son. She found him wondering the streets mear the school alone.

The attitide of the teachers was that she was 'being negative' and the whole thing was turned against the mother...not the teacher who couldn't be bothered to wait.

I have been to Oz since this and the same shit goes on there. I met with a premie who had a child there. She wouldn't hear anything bad said about the school. Why don't you find some people who have taken their kids out of Steiner schools and ask then why.

you said'I'm no expert on Steiner education, but each school is a separate, independent entity and is only as good as the core group of people running it(and the parents of course'

So I was told also. And when we started challening their policy on corporal punishment staff from other schools began to support us....until it came time to speak up....evryone turned against us.

Harry the Steiner people are the only groupdf of people I find more disgusting than M and his PAMS.

I advise you to enquire more deeply.

I hope to be in OZ within the next year or two and I'd be willing to come to a parents-teachers meeting. I'm willing to bet that I can show you poison there.

In fact why not ask the chairman of the teachers if I can come?
If he wants to check up on me about what happened in 1992, my name was then Eddie Fisher.

Also Harry, because corporal punishment is illegal doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Take care of your kid(s).

Regards Jethro


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Date: Tues, Mar 21, 2000 at 09:19:01 (GMT)
From: Harry
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Steiner's are the lowest of the low
Message:
Are you sure we're talking of the same schools? It's not a cult; it's a friggin' school. You really don't seem to know what you're talking about Jethro. America is a weird and strange place and maybe things are different where you come from. To imply that kids are just left to wander the streets if their parent is late to pick them up, is just ludicrous. The kids are always, ALWAYS, looked after till someone comes to pick them up. I know this from experience. But fuck-ups can happen anywhere I suppose. The school has a list of emergency contact numbers to ring in case something happens to you and you don't arrive to pick up your child. If the teacher just up and left, they could be sued.
My best friend, who is a Steiner trained teacher, took his boy out of the Steiner system this year, 'cause he just wasn't suited to it, but he wasn't made to feel unwelcome by anyone, in fact we share a few friends from the school.
BTW I was talking of a Parents Conservation Day, and that is different to a Parent-Teachers meeting.

>>>>>>Harry the Steiner people are the only groupdf of people I find more disgusting than M and his PAMS.<<<<

If you don't like the schools, then fine, it's a free country, but to imply that it's some sort of disgusting cult is kind of wacky. I bet ya there's people out there who find flowers disgusting too. There's probably 'Daffodils are evil' websites out there.
Anyway, Cya

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Date: Tues, Mar 21, 2000 at 11:03:31 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Harry
Subject: Steiner's are the lowest of the low
Message:
BTW Harry I'm in the UK and I DO know what I am talking about. However before this happened and other people I didn't listen and thought they were just prejudiced against something different.

Why didn't you find out what the teacher's belief system is ?

Also find out what qualifications the teachers have. Many Steiner teachers here don't even have GCSEs(exams taken at the age of 16).

By the way I originally sent my child to a Steiner place because I was told by a premie that M said that that is the one he likes the best. So I am the idiot.

Happenings like I have described have happend all over the world in Steiner(also called Waldorf schools).

If you happen to knoe a Sam Bender(stilll a premie I think), he can tell you stuff about Steiner school in Oz.

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Date: Mon, Mar 20, 2000 at 20:15:16 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Steiner's are the lowest of the low
Message:
Dear Jethro,

Yes I would like to read it and I will email you. I think we discussed it before once.

Thanks, and I am so sorry this happened to your daughter.

Susan

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Date: Tues, Mar 21, 2000 at 01:38:14 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Steiner's are the lowest of the low
Message:
My buddy Kevin sent his boy to a Waldorf school on the insistence of his wife. For a while they had a bumper sticker on their car which read 'Waldorf: education from the inside out.'

After one year involvement he wanted to make a new one which would read 'Waldorf: Yes it is a cult.'

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Date: Tues, Mar 21, 2000 at 07:07:14 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Steiner's are the lowest of the low
Message:
'After one year involvement he wanted to make a new one which would read 'Waldorf: Yes it is a cult.' '

Nice to hear someone got it.......most people who leave are made to feel it is their fault. The cultness of the Steiners is much more sofisticated that M's. If fact most people don't believe it is.

Their centre in Switzerland was burnt down earlyier in the century. Noone knows ewho did it or why.
Well I don't know WHO did it but I do know why.

These people are real scum.

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Date: Mon, Mar 20, 2000 at 18:37:42 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: all
Subject: the above DOES work and I would love to hear what
Message:
you all think. Especially Harry who likes Waldorf, what do you think of those criticisms? The racism stuff bothers me very much, as does the reincarnation and other very religous models the teachers are taught and probably must buy into to become teachers. I guess in a public school it disturbs me most.

I think the most interesting part of the debate is how new age religion seems to be able to sort of sneak by the religous label and into public schools. For instance, if it were a Christian or Jewish based curriculum obviously it would never become a public school. But because the religious aspects of Waldorf are not obvious there are public schools adopting the concept.

I think that parents should have every right to educate their children at Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Waldorf, or whatever school they beleive in. Yes, I think if there were Elan Vital Premie schools ( as there used to be Unity Schools) that it should be lawful to send ones children there. Of course it should be also lawful to voice ones opinions about it being a CULT SCHOOL! It does get me thinking about the voucher debate though. I am coming to feel, as I lean toward private school for my own youngest child, that wouldn't vouchers be nice. But, I would hate to see my tax dollars going to support Cult schools ( I could deal with more conventional religious schools). But I do think that as much as I know a cult when I see it, cults should be protected under the name of religious freedom despite their inherent destructive nature. I think religous freedom should remain protected and the lesser evil is that cults will be given protection I would prefer they didn't have. Better than living in a society that decides which religous beliefs are acceptable or not.

Jim, wanna give me your thoughts? Do atheists have in investment in protecting freedom of religion? Should any distinction between a religous cult and a mainstream religion be made under the law?

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Date: Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 01:08:49 (GMT)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Happy St. Patty's Day!
Message:
Hey Helen,
I'm trying to remember the song, but all I'm hearing is Chuck Berry singing, 'My Ding-a-ling.' I can't connect the dots on this one.
Have fun!
eb (with just a touch of Irish in 'er).
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Date: Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 23:00:29 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Those songs!
Message:
I awear, I'm trying to remember my childhood daze.
All I can remember at the moment is 'tommy boy'

I babysat all day. Finally talked his mom into letting me buy the
kid some shoes besides mocossins. Next step - no Waldorf schools!

yikes. I don't want to be one of 'those' mother in laws but let's hope there's no guru's lurking in any corners! That's a good wish
for my lucky star, leprachaun, Celtic charms, what not.

Happy St. Paddy's day to ye to lass.

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Date: Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 00:01:11 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Danny Boy -and I'm Irish?
Subject: who's Tommy Boy - oops Chris Farley?
Message:
Well he was probably Irish and NO I'm no 'on something' Not even any green beer. That could be the problem doncha know.

Danny Boy. Geez. Hey Sean, come out of one of your incarnations
and help me out here. I'm in need of some reinforcements for an
explanation as to the insanity and all.

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Date: Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 11:37:01 (GMT)
From: Danny
Email: Danny
To: Selene
Subject: Me heart belongs to you lass.
Message:
Selene, you are one cool Irish lass and I've always admired you from afar. It's I, Danny Boy from the Old Mother country, the man of your innermost and secret dreams. Do you think you could learn to love a poor Irish lad like me? I cook up a mean spud too.
Me hearts an purple flower bud, awaiting your soft kiss and fragrant breath, to finally open up and sing in joy. Please breathe my way.
Love is never wasted
Danny Boy
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Date: Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 23:39:27 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Danny
Subject: Me heart belongs to you lass.
Message:
Can we skip the spuds? I sorta do the high protien diet :)
Love is never wasted huh? hmph. poor lad, you picked a
hard way to go...

ah Danny, find yerself a nice young lass who still believes
is such things. Tis better for ya.

But thank ye for the sentiment and all. We could always skip the romance part and ... well, you'll have to buy the plane ticket.

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Date: Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 01:51:32 (GMT)
From: Danny with tears
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Me heart belongs to you lass.
Message:
Ahhhhh lass, it's your soul I yearn to explore, not your precious little pink thing, though I'm sure it's grand and a pleasure to behold. I suspect your high protien diet has hardened your heart. Maybe in the next life when you're not eating so much meat, maybe then we could trip to light fantastic, and two may become one.
Till then.
Danny Boy
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Date: Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 04:12:59 (GMT)
From: I feel mean
Email: None
To: Danny with tears
Subject: Me heart belongs to you lass.
Message:
Please don't cry. I don't eat much of anything really.
I was just oh I don't know. Just don't cry. I can't handle it.
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Date: Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 05:07:56 (GMT)
From: Danny with smiley faces
Email: None
To: I feel mean
Subject: Me heart belongs to you lass.
Message:
Just had a tofu burger and a ginseng cola and the tears are all gone, so don't be sad. See you on Jupiter honey.
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Date: Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 21:17:10 (GMT)
From: Remy
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Completely Baffled
Message:
I totally cannot figure out why any premie would visit this site. I could understand maybe M's little servants getting the scoop...but some premie just doing her/his/its premie thing...why would he/she/it want to read or say anything here?

It seems to me they are all about rigid rules, blind devotion, and utter servitude.
Reading stuff here seems so contrary to that.
How could I, for an instant, think the ones that linger here, don't harbor doubts?

Of the ones that do linger here, and post here, given their cheesy comments and grammatical and logical difficulties; how can think they are doing anything to help in propagation?

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Date: Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 14:11:16 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Remy
Subject: Completely Baffled
Message:
I think they initially come out of curiosity and then they stay to try to defend Maharaji. Of course they are also defending themselves and what they have been doing for perhaps decades. What seems normal and 'logical' to them after holding onto and rationalizing their 'premie position' for years, is being torn apart here. I can understand why they hang around even though it is kind of horrible to watch.

But I agree some of the premies' posts here are pathetic and sad. But in their own premie community what they are saying is supported and reinforced. Probably they don't have to articulate and defend their beliefs very much, I didn't do that much until I found this site. It's really confronting and embarassing to find out that the 'glue' that has held you together for a long time is just illusory and that your guru is an imaginary friend. But the imaginary friend is a real person who has duped you and is a fraud. It is very scary and confronting.

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Date: Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 00:09:37 (GMT)
From: jesse
Email: None
To: u
Subject: Completely Baffled
Message:
jesus said make thine eye single, thy whole body will fill w/ lite.
socrates said know thyself.
ernie said let's play 2.
remy said he's completely baffled
ROFLMAO..lol..=[
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Date: Thurs, Mar 16, 2000 at 22:51:11 (GMT)
From: Cockney Pete
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Eyeball squeezing
Message:
I wish you fuckers would stop talking about eyeball squeezing. That went out of style around 1980. Bit outa fuckin' date aren't ya ?
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Date: Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 12:39:33 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Cockney Pete
Subject: Get real Pete
Message:
Hey matey Pete.

Why is it that you premies so often come on to this forum and play cowardly games? You say you're an ex but it doesn't seem likely to me.

If you prems want to discuss something seriously how come you never reveal sincerely your experience of life. A much more positive response would occur if could just be straight and honest.

I came on here as a half hearted member of the cult and was treated very fairly by most people here , even Jim, who is actually a decent and honest person in my opinion.You actually made a few points which IMO had a speck of validity. If you did really leave M why not express your true feelings here? You may even enjoy yourself.

Hal

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Date: Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 14:34:08 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Cockney Pete
Subject: Eyeball squeezing
Message:
Pete,

I think most, if not all, of us know that the First Technique which used to be refered to as the Light Technique now requires very little pressure on the eye. We also know that at least some, if not most, Mahatmas taught the technique as requiring more pressure. I think when exes talk about squeezing eyeballs they are just taking the piss. If exes are in doubt, after all, they can check out the techniques on this site.

But I would like to ask you a serious question, and I hope you are willing to treat it seriously. The Third Technique, formerly known as Word or Name or Holy Name has changed very radically, not so much in the method, but when it should be practised.

Do you remember the commandment 'Constantly Meditate and Remember Holy Name'? This was Maharaji's order. He repeated it many times, and he included it in the Knowledge pack. In the early 80s when he did all those personal Knowledge reviews, he changed the duration required to 15 minutes a day during 'formal' practise. I was present when someone asked him about this in a Q&A session. He was very clear that the Third Technique should NOT be practised except during the formal hour.

What I want to ask you is why do you think he made that change? Was his previous instruction wrong, or is his new instruction wrong?

BTW If you live in London why not come along to our next social evening?

John.

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Date: Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 08:56:09 (GMT)
From: John Tucker
Email: jtucker@dircon.co.uk
To: JHB
Subject: Eyeball squeezing
Message:
John (JHB) wrote inter alia

BTW If you live in London why not come along to our next social evening?

Could someone be so kind as to contact me directly about the London social evenings? They sound interesting.

I promise not to read my poetry ;)

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Date: Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 16:03:45 (GMT)
From: Cockney Pete
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Eyeball squeezing
Message:
Hello Mate,

What some of you guys think is that I'm a premie. Well I actually moved on from M many years ago. However I respect the Knowledge that was shown to me and I respect the boss for showing me how to find tranquility within. I think most of these guys on the forum are so out of touch with their hearts, it's unreal.
Maharaji is an introducer to meditation and it's up to us to 'run with it' and experience the oneness inside that he talks about. I think it's healthy to leave following him but not at the price of becoming a nasty little shit.
Maybe the prob is with these Canadian uptight jerks. If you'd ever been to Canada you'd find that the place abounds with humourless egotistical arseholes with a profound sense of their own importance.

Knowledge is not techniques. That's like saying the house is the key to the front door.

I think some of these jerks on the forum are the ones who so loudly proclaimed the wonders of Knowledge to new folks and told everyone that the Lord's on the planet. Now they say that the experience they had was a non experience and talk crap about earwax and eyeball pressing.You guys are the biggest fakes. You tell us you were lying when you told us aspirants what a wonderful experience you were having? That's a real bastard thing to do don't you think? LIARS.

I sound angry because I get angry when idiots on this forum put up stuff like 'I hate premies '. Just causing more division and intolerance in this already fucked up world. In China they recently imprisoned a bunch of middle aged meditators who belonged to a cult. Not only imprisoned but tortured and beat them. That's the same mentality as those who attack premies for doing something they enjoy in the privacy of their own homes.

I'm for freedom to practice Knowedge for those who want and fuck off out of it if you don't like it. Maharaji can be a bit of a jerk at times but he's no where near as fucked up as these forum gits. There are a few reasonable ones on here but the core bunch are a rightload of vindictive .....s.

I'm not against a bit of critisism against M but premies are usually a decent bunch of geezers. Maybe the few nasty ones ended up on this forum shit.

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Date: Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 19:37:47 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Cocky Pete
Subject: Nasty posts?
Message:
Hello Peter,

Who are you? Have you posted here before? How long were you involved? Where? When? Just curious...

And can you really be as angry as all that about the opinions of people you don't know concerning a movement you 'moved on' from years ago? Doesn't ring true, somehow.

Very few of the posts to the forum would I classify as 'nasty' or vindictive' - but yours was certainly one of them.

Nigel

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Date: Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 16:50:41 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Cockney Pete
Subject: Dear Mr. Pete:
Message:
Don't be so quick to judge us exes as heartless. After all, if one were to read most of your recent posts, one would be tempted to form a very harsh judgement of your character. The words bilious, bitter, angry, venemous, and out-of-control come to mind. However, you might actually be a pretty nice guy.

See, on this forum, we don't usually discuss our families, jobs, pets, gardens...or even our meditation practices, which some of us have.

What we discuss is something most of us have negative feelings about...a simple-minded little sect overseen by a duplicitous master.

Make sense?

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Date: Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 16:35:09 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Cockney Pete
Subject: You can't be serious, little Petie
Message:
So what's this? Another know-nothing 'heart' man. Another viscious, stupid 'heart' man. Another viscious, stupid 'heart' man whose anti-mind program makes him think he doesn't have to think well. In fact it's worse than that, isn't it? Another viscious, stupid 'heart' man whose anti-mind program makes him as suspicious of good thinking as a paranoid yard dog. All bark, no intelligence. Yawn....
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Date: Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 18:48:23 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You can't be serious, little Petie
Message:
Jim,

I enjoyed Pete's post. Breath of fresh air, like.

Yet you come on so (apparently) strong, like he's an enemy of some sort?

Why the attempt to drag him down to a level where you can 'prove' you're superior to him?

You think he's a 'know-nothing heart-man'?

Have a heart, man.

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Date: Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 18:51:36 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: You can't be serious, cq
Message:
Just exactly what did you enjoy so much in Pete's stupid, stupid post? (This should be good!).
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Date: Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 18:43:52 (GMT)
From: Cockney Rebel
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You are so intelligent
Message:
Nuffink wrong wiv finking lawyer man. Just nasty vicious minded finking like yours.
You think you're intelligent? Maybe a few degrees make you intelligent. Well mate , in my opinion the intelligence of Goebals or Himmler aint worth having.
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Date: Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 18:46:45 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Cockney Rebel
Subject: Funny, you're sure not
Message:
You're barely even intelligible.
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Date: Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 18:51:14 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: quartus@postmaster.co.uk
To: Jim
Subject: IntelliBULL? 'None so blind as those who ...
Message:
... blink...blink...

... will not see'

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Date: Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 18:52:22 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: What's that supposed to mean, cq? (nt)
Message:
cq
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Date: Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 19:10:44 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What's that supposed to mean, cq? (nt)
Message:
Cockney Rebel wrote:
Nuffink wrong wiv finking lawyer man. Just nasty vicious minded finking like yours.
You think you're intelligent? Maybe a few degrees make you intelligent. Well mate , in
my opinion the intelligence of Goebals or Himmler aint worth having.

Translation from Cockney follows:

(quoting Pete)
'Nothing wrong with thinking, lawyer man. Just (with) nasty vicious-minded thinking like yours.'

And to my mind, Jim, your prejudice in judging a poster not so much on his/her content as on whether or not they proclaim M to be good/bad/indifferent, says a lot about ... well, about your prejudice, for a start.

Do all lawyers end up this way?

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Date: Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 20:05:16 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Reasonable prejudice? Why not
Message:
And to my mind, Jim, your prejudice in judging a poster not so much on his/her content as on whether or not they proclaim M to be good/bad/indifferent, says a lot about ... well, about your prejudice, for a start.

If the 'prejudice' is no more than a reasonable advance judgment based on past experience I'm all for it. My experience to date tells me that people who defend Maharaji are hoodwinked, naive, ignorant or just plain dumb. So what's wrong with that? If you've got a Maharaji apologist who breaks the mold, let me know. I sure haven't met one yet.

Do all lawyers end up this way?

And what's your noble profession, cq?

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Date: Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 20:30:54 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Reasonable prejudice? Why not
Message:
Jim, (hi there), you say:

'My experience to date tells me that people who defend Maharaji are hoodwinked, naive, ignorant or just plain dumb.'

Ergo, when you considered yourself a premie (defendant of Maharaji?) you were likewise hoodwinked, naive, ignorant or just plain dumb. Non?

My angle is this: people who are STILL with M sometimes have a 'change of heart' - (how you doing, Hal?)

Yet when they first post here, they're kinda undecided ... testing the water, like.

And IF the first ripost they get (on taking that courageous plunge into posting on a public forum like this) - is a full-frontal broadside from a total ANTI-knowledge ...(note - anti-knowledge, - anti-Maha being a slightly different matter IMHO) ...

AIWS(as I was saying) ...full-frontal broadside from an anti-KNOWLEDGE ex-premie, ...

- is there any wonder why the rest of us exes find ourselves accused of denigrating/belittling the knowledge/meditation, when, in fact, the target of our collective disapproval is the Maha, rather than the meditation?

Do I know a 'Maharaji apologist who breaks the mold?'

The fact that you're willing to envisage the existence of such a creature is ... interesting. (I really don't want to pigeon-hole anyone).

BTW, my 'noble' profession used to be the music biz, now it's Local Authority Education (L.E.A. to the acronymists).

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Date: Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 20:50:11 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Reasonable prejudice? Why not?
Message:
I was hoodwinked, naive and ignorant. Not dumb though. Dumb is what you get when you stay in the cult as the years go by and it becomes apparent to any sentient being willing to really look that Maharaji's a joke. I didn't have quite the same opportunity to hold him up against his life of deceit and non-achievement.

And cq, what on earth are you talking about regarding scaring polite, fledgling posters away? This guy psoted like a blustering asshole. You've got to be kidding.

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Date: Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 20:57:08 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Reasonable prejudice? Why not?
Message:
Jim,

IMO, dumb is when one refuses to speak out for something one believes in. Literally.

Dumb then? Or dumb now for not recognising that you/we were dumb then?

And my own first posts on this Forum were ... well, 'blustering asshole' comes close...

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Date: Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 21:09:13 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Reasonable prejudice? Why not?
Message:
IMO, dumb is when one refuses to speak out for something one believes in. Literally.

Why play word games?

Dumb then? Or dumb now for not recognising that you/we were dumb then?

Whatever.

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Date: Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 21:20:38 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Reasonable prejudice? Why not?
Message:
Jim, you say:

'Dumb is what you get when you stay in the cult as the years go by and it becomes apparent to any sentient being willing to really look that Maharaji's a joke.'

Word 'games' aside, (though there is purpose in relating the etymology - origin - of the word 'dumb')
I guess when we're talking about 'dumb' we're talking about stupidity.

Is Pete being stupid by posting here? (Whether or not he/she is pro or anti-Maha)

I think we could let new posters reveal a little more about themselves before rejecting their world-experience in toto.

(so Pete called M 'the Boss' - and how do you know it wasn't tongue in cheek?)

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Date: Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 23:55:31 (GMT)
From: Cockney Pete
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Games up
Message:
Well that was an interesting experiment. I created a persona for myself called Cockney Pete to express a part of myself which I felt would be more easy to deliver through the false persona of a cockney Londoner. I am in truth an ex premie. All of my opinions were sincere , yet expressed through a fictional personality rather like Jim's Pauline premie .

I must impress upon you that the perspectives I expressed were true feelings. However the aggressive style was a put on.

I have been observing this forum for a considerable time and felt that as an ex I wouldn't be able to sincerely post here because of the anti spiritual bias. I still persue inner understanding you see, which seems to be unacceptable here.

I think M is a kindergarden teacher of self knowledge. True empowerment comes when the guru is left behind with a fond farewell and thank you.

The tendency of some on this forum is to poo poo any idea of going within. This seems most unintelligent to me as there is much to still discover which M only started to introduce us to.

Forgive me for game playing but I thought it might be fun to stir up the hornets nest. I won't do it again.

However I do suggest that if you wish to attract a more varied posting from all of us exes out here who don't usually post through fear of intimidation then perhaps be more tolerant of other viewpoints . Having the words motherfucker thrown at someone who posts here is somewhat disconcerting.

Cockney Pete

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Date: Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 19:29:32 (GMT)
From: Cockney Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Cockney Pete
Subject: Had your fun, have you?
Message:
First, 'Pete', your cockney pose was transparent. No self-respecting eastender would ever refer to themselves as 'Cockney so-and-so' any more than you get Liverpudlians calling themselves 'Scouse Mick' or folk from anywhere else calling themselves 'Brummy Bertha' or 'Geordie Tom'. But let that pass...

But I'd just like to say that you're quite the hypocrite aren't you? - at least on the evidence so far presented. I mean - really - posting to JW thus: You're just some dimbo who thought Knowledge was about techniques.Four bog standard yoga techniques. Mug.You'll never know what the fuck it is . Arrogance is the block you never shook off. Better luck next lifetime!

(Joe is actually one of smartest and funniest of the exes I have got to know over the last few years - and 'arrogance' is the very last adjective that ANYONE would use about him - and you obviously know fuck all about his involvement with DLM)

But you justify this with Forgive me for game playing but I thought it might be fun to stir up the hornets nest.

So fun was it? And what right do you have to do for fun what (you assume) other exes do for reasons other than fun? (and most exes here abstain from doing completely.)

And as to your notion of believers being the persecuted minority - sorry, that's just crap. I can only think of three others apart from myself who have declared themselves outright atheists. For the most part, forum contributors tend to be a mix of non-denominational believers, agnostics etc., or else keep their personal beliefs out of sight. There are plenty of folk still meditating, but then meditation has nothing to do with Maharaji anyway. (And in my opinion has nothing to do with God or the spirit.)

And to talk of Djuro as being 'an underdog' getting trampled on is pathetic. Djuro posts with the condecension of the spiritually superior. He is a premie on an ex-premie forum who isn't looking to get converted. More importantly participation here is voluntary. Djuro comes here of his own accord starting these passive-aggressive, non-communicative threads. Does it over and over till people get sick of it... but you see him as some kind of victim? Get real - for fuck's sake. You should be praising the forum admins for their tolerance of timewasters.

Then you have the temerity to sign off with this weary bleat: However I do suggest that if you wish to attract a more varied posting from all of us exes out here who don't usually post through fear of intimidation then perhaps be more tolerant of other viewpoints . Having the words motherfucker thrown at someone who posts here is somewhat disconcerting.

So what about the 'intimidated' exes out there reading your posts who never made it as far as your confession? By God's buggery bollocks, Pete, you're in one hell of a moral muddle...

Nigel
(Born Leystonstone, London, but now honorary Liverpudlian.)

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Date: Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 15:51:39 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Cockney Nigel
Subject: Nothing more needs to be said, Nigel
Message:
Nigel: This guy IS a total ass and you called it right on the money! So he thinks this is funny to those who suffered the very real damage of M's lunatic world! Now, instead of displaying spiritual superiority (during his premie years), he has learned to display his overall superiority and all-knowing nature..... WOW, what a catharsis this so-called ex has gone through! I'm really impressed!!!

CP: You haven't even begun to become an ex! You haven't shown the slightest hint that you've given up your lard and master, despite your allegations to the contrary. Stop lying to yourself, now! You can't 'quit' until you admit to yourself that you are a member of a cult (and thus, have a problem)!

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Date: Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 22:21:40 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Cockney Nigel
Subject: You tell 'im Nigel. Yeah right on! (nt)
Message:
h
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Date: Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 04:40:12 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Cockney Pete
Subject: To Pete (OT)
Message:
Hey Pete, Which LEA do you work for?

Regards Jethro

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Date: Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 14:29:13 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: LEA?
Message:
Pete works for an LEA too?

Or are you thinking that I was pretending to be Pete?

Wrong there, Jethro.


...wonder who he/she is though? Whoever it was, hope they feel free enough to keep posting here - the more viewpoints the better IMO.

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Date: Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 22:02:40 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: LEA?(OT)
Message:
No I didn't think you were Pete. I must have got it mixed up.
Which LEA do you work for? I used to work for Sutton and Wandsworth. (I assume you are in the UK.)

Regards Jethro

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Date: Mon, Mar 20, 2000 at 16:58:52 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Bhole shri El Eeeyay? (OT)
Message:
Bhole shri El Eeeyay? (OT)

Hi Jed, (or do you prefer to be called Jethro?)

In answer to your q. - County Durham is my employer at present, and I'm working with the School and Governor Support Service (at a v. modest level, mind you).

Prior to that, I had a few years in graphic design/print; and before that - assistant dubbing mixer with BBC film studios after returning from couple of years bumming around India with the Rajneeshis.

As for ancient history - after leaving the Maha's ashram I was lucky enough to get a job as sound engineer with an Edinburgh recording studio - only 16-track). Talents I'd like to put to better use again. Who knows? maybe one day.

Yourself?

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Date: Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 02:01:00 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Cockney Pete
Subject: Naw, I paid my dues -- let's talk turkey!
Message:
Whoever you are,

What was the point of your exercise again? To show that someone who posts inane and insulting posts will get same in return? Because that's what you did. Your post wasn't a mature invitation to discuss spirituality so don't be pretending that that's why you got dissed.

Look at Stonor. He's been posting here for a short while and he's completely into all that inner search shit. No one's insulted him in the least, I don't think. Why? Because he hasn't acted like an asshole, that's why.

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Date: Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 05:03:21 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Stonor says: mental work-out yes/insult no
Message:
Good 'orgasms' too! ;o) And I've been expecting to get torched for some of it - was even warned a while ago. (I also think I've been at least a borderline asshole sometimes, so thanks for the re-assurance) And a thanks to admin for that mysterious deletion early yesterday morning that included my last post (when I finally lost it) to another person's (?) disgusting spew.

By the way Jim, I've come to enjoy your posts, but out of this whole thread this is the only one I just happened to read. Sorry, had to mention it. It felt real weird, but heck, these things happen. Glad I had a chance to corroborate your statement!

Guess now I'll have to read the preceding one at least.

Stonor

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Date: Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 05:19:40 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: anyone
Subject: have to add . . .
Message:
Have to add though, that I'm not crazy about the name-calling - but as a non-anything, I'm quite amazed at how accepting all of you have been about my presence here, and it's certainly not my place to comment.

I also remember a post by someone who was slowly getting his feet wet in m's trip saying that your style of 'rhetoric,' Jim, helped him to see it in a new light. And I should also say that it's not the same as saying these things in different contexts.

And I think Cocky Pete has been a jerk (sorry I can't think of a more accurate and descriptive word, but someone else probably already has) and far ruder than any ex-premie who posts here.

Stonor

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Date: Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 03:07:57 (GMT)
From: JB
Email: None
To: Cockney Pete
Subject: Eyeball squeezing
Message:
Now they're all agitated. Didn't you know you were going to get all this flak? Diplomacy - Pete - calm down - -use some diplomacy. Honey - flies - vinegar - mean anything to you?

JB

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Date: Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 00:54:59 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Cockney Pete
Subject: Eyeball squeezing
Message:
So Pete, what is the 'style' now when it comes to doing the 'light technique' or should I speak 'up to date' and say 'technique number one?' Please explain to us how to do 'technique number one,' willya? Maybe if we did it in the current 'style' we would have such an experience that we would all come rushing back to the lotus feet.
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Date: Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 06:38:24 (GMT)
From: Cockney P
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Eyeball squeezing
Message:
Forget it. It only works when you know the secret ancilliary technique.Don't ask, it's a secret!
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Date: Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 18:10:33 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Cockney P
Subject: Eyeball squeezing
Message:
Too late; I already know what the secret technique is. It's sticking your head far up your ass.
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Date: Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 03:12:27 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Doesn't work that way, Joe
Message:
Joe, this cult member could explain to you the new way but why in the world do you think you'd experience anything? Don't you remember? It ain't Knowledge if it don't come from Maharaji or his authorized agent. That goes for tech support and upgrades too. No M, no nothing. So if you want to learn the new (sorry, make that 'real') technique you'll need a Knowledge session. Maybe Djuro's not so wrong after all.
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Date: Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 05:55:43 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: For Your Information,I have Received Knowledge
Message:
Jim, I just had my 'spiritual birthday' on March 8. 27 years ago, I received knowledge. So, I know what the techniques are, and I think I even got an upgrade about 1981, when we were told not to squeeze our eyeballs as much as we did before. So, I already got the 'knowledge' as well as whatever 'grace' came along with it.

I found light technique numbingly boring. It was completely uninteresting and, well, boring. Plus I felt really stupid doing it, almost as stupid as doing the 'music technique' (I think that's 'number two' now --I had a nanny who called a bowel movement 'number two'), when I felt I was doing an impersonation of moose antlers.

The experience people have when they do those techniques, other than abject boredom, is otherwise known as 'the placebo effect.' It doesn't matter what the techniques are. If you believe in them, and accept Maharaji as your lord, the techniques could be anything. So how hard you squeeze your eyeballs is of no consequence.

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Date: Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 06:42:35 (GMT)
From: Cockney Pete
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: You didn't receive Knowledge
Message:
You're just some dimbo who thought Knowledge was about techniques.Four bog standard yoga techniques. Mug.You'll never know what the fuck it is . Arrogance is the block you never shook off. Better luck next lifetime!
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Date: Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 18:07:14 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Cockney Pete
Subject: Pot Calling Kettle Black, Peetie
Message:
Well, who did you say was arrogant? Of course, you being the evolved premie has not such problem. You are all love and sweetness, right? What a bunch of crap.

You have no idea what I thought about knowledge or anything else, and it makes you a 'dimbo' for saying something so stupid. And by the way, it was as you, speed bump, who brought up the 'eyeball squeezing' comment, as if it was essential to what you think 'knowledge' is about.

I know 'knowledge' isn't about meditation techniques. It's about a personality cult, with a fat, obscenely wealthy, East Indian guy as the 'personality.' That's what it's about. The meditation techniques are just the lure and the facade to make gullible people believe it has something to do with spirituality.

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Date: Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 18:45:37 (GMT)
From: Pete
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Pot Calling Kettle Black, Peetie
Message:
Wrong matey, I'm not a premie but an ex. I just retained some respect for other peoples choices.
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Date: Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 18:49:31 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Pete
Subject: Then you're an even bigger idiot
Message:
Put it all together, Petie. Put together the fact that Maharaji's not the Lord of the Universe with the fact that he pretends to be -- yes, even now. Go ask your premie friends (that is if they're not too frightened to talk openly). If you had half a brain you might be able to see why some don't quite feel like calling him 'the boss' anymore, idiot.
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Date: Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 00:01:21 (GMT)
From: C P
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Relax Jimbo, Some meditation may help. (nt)
Message:
a
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Date: Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 19:02:54 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Then you're an even bigger idiot
Message:
If Pete calls himself an 'ex' in the same way that the the magazine 'Premies' changed to 'Friends' - then, maybe he's a breath of 'fresh' air I shouldn't bother with.

Pete, (surname not BONE or POTTER by any chance? - long shot, like) - come clean on this - what do you mean by calling yourself an 'ex' and at the same time calling M 'the boss'?

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Date: Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 20:27:56 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: cq
Subject: I wouldn't spend too long with this guy...
Message:
Chris,

I reckon Pete 'doth protest too much' as they say. His style of posting has all the hallmarks of practicing premie trying to put on an act of what a 'reasonable' ex should post like.

I may be wrong but, either way, he hasn't come here to listen, empathise, understand or discuss anything. His immediate references to Canada and lawyers suggest someone who has spent time here. Could be Catweasel again of course.

Note the 'M being a bit of a jerk' reference - probably typed through gritted teeth. I think the true test of Pete's ex credentials will be when or whether he spells out his reasons for leaving. No ex-premie will hesitate from listing Maharaji's faults. No practicing premie will so much as name one.

But like I said, I may be wrong. (And who cares?)

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Date: Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 20:57:47 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: A test for Pete
Message:
Pete,

I think that Nigel, just above, has made some perceptive remarks concerning you. Perhaps not all of them are true but he certainly has some good reason to speculate. I think a good test is the one that he suggests about why you left Rawat and what you think are his faults. You state above somewhere that 'Maharaji can be a bit of a jerk.' Please elaborate. Have you ever personally witnessed Rawat behaving that way? If not personally, how did you form that opinion? Please be specific. And while you are listing Rawat's faults, I suppose in the interests of fairness you should lists the qualities that you find in him that still qualifies him as 'the boss' in your eyes. Here's a little something to get you started:

Prem Pal Singh Rawat
The Good Traits

Good taste in women and clothes.
Resembles the Buddha in body and face.
Self-confident.
Hands out trinkets to close associates.
Lets his kids get out of school.
Flies kites expertly.
Speaks six languages.
Omnipotent.
Bathes often.

Prem Pal Singh Rawat
The Bad Traits

Lies through his teeth.
Squeaks and squawks.
Uses potty language.

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Date: Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 22:05:47 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: A test for Peat........
Message:
Way: I think the proper test for 'peat' was developed by the guys that make the really great unblended scotch, like glen fiddich or glen livet. I think the peat has to contain just so much notrogen or it gets really rank...... he he he :-)
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Date: Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 20:43:37 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: ... who cares? I'm often wrong, but still care(nt)
Message:
... who cares? I'm often wrong, but still care(nt)
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Date: Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 12:27:59 (GMT)
From: Angry
Email: None
To: Cockney Pete
Subject: You didn't receive Knowledge/Explain Please
Message:
Pete,

I'm sure we would all be very interested in your explanation of what Knowledge is. What exactly did we not understand?

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Date: Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 08:29:13 (GMT)
From: toby
Email: None
To: Cockney Pete
Subject: YOU didn't receive Knowledge
Message:
sounds very angry

doesn't knowledge give you peace?

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Date: Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 06:03:12 (GMT)
From: Me
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: For Your Information,I have Received Knowledge
Message:
Dear J.W.,

You must have had a British Nanny if she said number two!

Me

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Date: Thurs, Mar 16, 2000 at 23:09:37 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Cockney Pete
Subject: You mean, cock-eyed pete, don't you?
Message:
CP: Yes, you are right..... after he discovered that pressing on eyeballs can casue a detached retina and he realized that he would be legally liable for the result.... he changed the technique. Now you just stick your filthy fingers in your eyes.... can you say conjunctivitis? sure you can.....
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Date: Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 04:47:14 (GMT)
From: eb
Email: None
To: all
Subject: I tried it both ways,
Message:
and I definitely saw more stars when Rajeshwar damn near poked my eyes out in 1975 during a Knowledge review.
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