Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Thurs, May 04, 2000 at 22:25:06 (GMT)
From: Apr 20, 2000 To: May 02, 2000 Page: 5 Of: 5


Peter Howie -:- Always being right - and learning from it -:- Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 08:29:57 (GMT)
__ Stonor -:- Learning from life through choices, right or wrong -:- Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 00:26:36 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Bullshit -:- Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 01:03:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ Stonor -:- Bullshit always flys too fast! -:- Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 01:18:38 (GMT)
__ infinity trade -:- Always being right - and learning from it -:- Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 20:03:56 (GMT)
__ __ Peter Howie -:- Always being right - and learning from it -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 05:23:20 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Think about this, you stupid, stupid fuck -:- Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 20:11:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ infinity trade -:- Think about this, you stupid, stupid fuck.Temper! -:- Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 20:41:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ infinity trade -:- Think about this, you .........Temper! (expurgated -:- Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 21:00:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ G -:- Far out, man. Like wow yea I can follow that -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 21:46:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- OT G, would you please.... -:- Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 10:13:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Oh, great! You're autistic. Sorry, I didn't know -:- Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 20:56:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- Yo, infinity..... -:- Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 20:45:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ infinity trade -:- Oh, great! PC Sorry, I didn't know -:- Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 21:04:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- Wait, YOU ARE RIGHT! -:- Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 20:56:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Ruff ruff!! (nt) -:- Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 21:07:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ infinity trade -:- Ruff ruff!! (nt) -:- Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 21:33:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ dogvotee -:- Sumwun call me? Ruff ruff , lick Guroos arse. NT -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 09:22:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ infinity trade -:- Sumwun call me? Ruff ruff , lick Guroos arse. NT -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 21:12:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- that's a cute name NT -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 17:00:49 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- You're right. Maybe he really IS the Lord -:- Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 17:36:53 (GMT)
__ __ Peter Howie -:- You're right. Maybe he really IS the Lord -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 05:30:30 (GMT)
__ Loaf -:- Always being right - and learning from it -:- Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 11:29:03 (GMT)
__ __ Peter Howie -:- Always being right - and learning from it -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 05:43:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ Loaf -:- A wise old uncle in his doltage..... -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 14:57:38 (GMT)
__ __ trixie -:- Being right vs being right -:- Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 20:01:05 (GMT)
__ __ Loaf -:- My last post ^^ -:- Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 16:02:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ Daneane -:- My last post ^^ -:- Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 16:07:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- My last post ^^ -:- Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 16:21:10 (GMT)
__ __ Russ Hinze -:- Always being right - and learning from it -:- Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 14:40:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Always the coward, eh Cat? -:- Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 16:39:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ The SouthernSpottedQuoll -:- eh Jim? -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 05:07:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ More hostile -:- crap from Catweasel above. (FA: delete?) -:- Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 14:47:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie -:- to Russ/Cat -:- Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 14:46:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Peter Howie -:- to Russ/Cat -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 05:47:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Runamok -:- to Russ/Cat, also to Pete -:- Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 18:09:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Peter Howie -:- to Russ/Cat, also to Pete -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 05:20:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Russ Hinze the Ultimate -:- to Russ/Cat, also to Pete -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 18:01:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- to Peter -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 06:09:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Peter Howie -:- to Peter -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 06:52:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- to Peter -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 18:59:38 (GMT)

Jim -:- You know what's really funny? This ........ -:- Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 06:43:07 (GMT)
__ Stonor -:- And what do you 'turn on' when you 'turn on'? -:- Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 14:47:50 (GMT)

ET -:- Easter Sermon: God is Real -:- Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 06:25:58 (GMT)
__ Devil's Advocate -:- Says YOU -:- Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 21:40:29 (GMT)
__ __ Hal -:- Who created who? -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 09:28:11 (GMT)
__ __ ET -:- Hey, I used to be an atheist, too (nt) -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 00:20:41 (GMT)
__ bill boik -:- Dawn Discharge -:- Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 07:31:36 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- And now I know why -:- Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 07:57:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ bb -:- And now I know why -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 03:50:40 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Wishful thinking (nt) -:- Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 06:30:28 (GMT)

Stonor -:- A swig of Canadian Culture for the deprived -:- Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 02:00:42 (GMT)
__ Mike -:- Isn't that an oxymoron? he he he :-) (nt) -:- Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 15:46:08 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- Mike you are too funny -:- Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 21:51:03 (GMT)
__ Katie -:- A swig of Canadian Culture for the deprived -:- Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 13:23:09 (GMT)
__ __ Stonor -:- A swig of Canadian Culture for the deprived -:- Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 14:30:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie -:- A swig of Canadian Culture for the deprived -:- Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 14:41:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Women authors -:- Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 15:02:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ gErRy -:- M M M Maeve... -:- Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 15:32:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Women authors -:- Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 15:31:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- LeGuinn/M -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 04:57:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- LeGuinn/M -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 11:15:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- more women authors -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 21:42:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Daneane -:- Women authors -:- Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 16:49:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Women authors -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 11:09:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Daneane -:- Women authors -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 13:06:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Women authors -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 11:32:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Women authors -:- Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 20:01:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- very very dark? -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 11:11:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- very very dark? -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 14:39:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- very very dark? -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 11:33:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ eb -:- Women authors -:- Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 20:11:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- you'd better id yourself -:- Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 21:02:17 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- A swig of Canadian Culture for the deprived -:- Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 02:47:12 (GMT)
__ __ Stonor -:- A swig of Canadian Culture for the deprived -:- Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 14:12:25 (GMT)

Runamok -:- Coltrane Church? (ot) to Scott and whomever -:- Sat, Apr 22, 2000 at 23:14:41 (GMT)
__ Peter Howie -:- Coltrane Church? (ot) to Scott and whomever -:- Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 08:02:30 (GMT)
__ __ Runamok -:- Coltrane -:- Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 09:03:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Coltrane -:- Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 14:20:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Helen -:- SCOTT--lost your em address, can you em me.... -:- Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 02:04:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Never mind, found it and just em'd ya (nt) -:- Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 02:26:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JW -:- Coltrane -:- Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 14:38:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- Alice Coltrane? -:- Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 18:23:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Coltraine Church -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 16:20:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- Coltrane -:- Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 05:41:19 (GMT)

Jim -:- Really, I ask you, is this healthy? -:- Sat, Apr 22, 2000 at 18:23:43 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- And how about this? -:- Sat, Apr 22, 2000 at 18:28:13 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Yes, Ivette, the 'synchronism' is incredible -:- Sat, Apr 22, 2000 at 18:32:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ premie -:- Yes, Ivette, the 'synchronism' is incredible -:- Sat, Apr 22, 2000 at 21:26:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Heaven, hell and madness in Makati City -:- Sat, Apr 22, 2000 at 18:36:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Mike -:- The Philippines ARE heaven..... -:- Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 15:39:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ trixie -:- oh help -:- Sat, Apr 22, 2000 at 20:52:04 (GMT)

Dan Rather -:- important news update rom Rennie... -:- Sat, Apr 22, 2000 at 16:45:09 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Yeah, it's funny as sin -:- Sat, Apr 22, 2000 at 16:50:03 (GMT)

Dan Rather -:- Come again, Rennie? -:- Sat, Apr 22, 2000 at 16:31:20 (GMT)
__ Rob -:- Pie in this guy -:- Sat, Apr 22, 2000 at 23:36:39 (GMT)

Jim -:- Pretty sounding parrot -:- Sat, Apr 22, 2000 at 02:49:58 (GMT)

Jim -:- Just how personal was it anyway? -:- Sat, Apr 22, 2000 at 02:28:46 (GMT)
__ G -:- Up close and personal? -:- Sat, Apr 22, 2000 at 20:05:42 (GMT)
__ MTV -:- Movie star -:- Sat, Apr 22, 2000 at 02:46:04 (GMT)
__ __ Hal -:- Movie star -:- Sat, Apr 22, 2000 at 09:44:21 (GMT)

Jim -:- The Yellow Brick Road -:- Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 16:54:46 (GMT)
__ JW -:- Smoke, smoke, smoke??? -:- Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 20:06:30 (GMT)
__ Trade it for a Lexus -:- waiting for my man -:- Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 19:37:33 (GMT)
__ Way -:- All night long, Master! -:- Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 17:28:15 (GMT)
__ __ Jimmy Fitz -:- Tangent: The Hansi mystery -:- Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 19:23:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ Way -:- Re:Tangent: The Hansi mystery -:- Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 19:37:57 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Very funny, Way -:- Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 18:29:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ gErRy -:- Yellow brick road all the way to the bank... -:- Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 20:15:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ G -:- and some more profits for the fake prophet... -:- Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 20:26:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Daneane -:- Wots..uh the deal? -:- Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 21:00:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ A.P. -:- Wots..uh the deal? -:- Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 21:49:05 (GMT)

gerry -:- Two essay questions for Dettmers... -:- Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 15:49:15 (GMT)

Brian -:- Charlie's Journey -:- Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 15:44:40 (GMT)
__ Katie -:- Thank you, Charlie -:- Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 14:28:32 (GMT)
__ bb -:- Congradulations Charlie...(nt) -:- Sat, Apr 22, 2000 at 20:27:44 (GMT)
__ JW -:- Thank you , Lee...... -:- Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 19:54:34 (GMT)
__ __ JW -:- I mean, Charlie (I guess Lee is your wife)(nt) -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 22:08:01 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- For Christ's sake, Charlie, it's 'Mishler' .... -:- Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 16:17:21 (GMT)
__ __ Way -:- Required reading for aspirants! (nt) -:- Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 17:03:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ Helen -:- Thanks -:- Sat, Apr 22, 2000 at 14:51:05 (GMT)

Loaf -:- Phone Link Up -:- Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 12:35:12 (GMT)

infinity trade -:- It worked for me I'll be back. -:- Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 12:02:33 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- What does 'work' mean? -:- Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 00:49:06 (GMT)
__ __ infinity trade -:- What does 'work' mean? -:- Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 08:10:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Bullshit. 'Journey'? Give me a fucking break -:- Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 16:58:33 (GMT)
__ Runamok -:- It worked for me but (again) -:- Sat, Apr 22, 2000 at 23:19:53 (GMT)
__ __ infinity trade -:- It worked for me but (again) -:- Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 08:21:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ Runamok -:- It worked for me but (again) Pt 2 -:- Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 18:40:49 (GMT)
__ Hal -:- Try again. -:- Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 18:15:17 (GMT)
__ __ infinity trade -:- Try again. -:- Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 20:56:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ Hal -:- Kult? -:- Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 22:34:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ Angry -:- Try again./Regurgitation -:- Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 22:17:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ Daneane -:- Both -:- Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 21:02:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ infinity trade -:- Both -:- Sat, Apr 22, 2000 at 19:27:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Daneane -:- Both -:- Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 00:20:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ infinity trade -:- Both -:- Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 08:00:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Daneane -:- Both -:- Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 14:23:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Right On IT -:- Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 10:55:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- agreement at last ! -:- Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 09:26:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ infinity trade -:- agreement at last ! -:- Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 19:42:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Hey IT -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 09:52:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- agreement at least -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 05:00:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Did nolige mak u an ignoramus? -:- Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 19:51:41 (GMT)
__ __ Hal -:- I see you're down below ,15 mins of fame! nt ) -:- Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 18:37:27 (GMT)

A.P. -:- Get your registration forms here -:- Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 11:34:51 (GMT)
__ Angry -:- Get your registration forms here/Random Seating? -:- Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 22:22:05 (GMT)
__ A.P. -:- Get your registration forms here -:- Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 11:41:18 (GMT)
__ __ dv -:- Lets have a power breakfast(or dinner) at the -:- Sat, Apr 22, 2000 at 01:38:27 (GMT)
__ __ Rob -:- Get your registration forms here -:- Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 19:23:17 (GMT)

JHB -:- Going to Latvia (OT) -:- Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 10:10:24 (GMT)

Jean-Michel -:- Exes phone conference tonight -:- Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 21:04:23 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Here's the details! -:- Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 21:38:28 (GMT)
__ __ bb -:- Here's the details! -:- Sat, Apr 22, 2000 at 02:01:22 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- so what are the details? -:- Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 06:19:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- what could you be debriefed about? -:- Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 14:16:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- oh sorry JM -:- Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 17:21:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- we did? -:- Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 22:57:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- introverts unite -:- Sat, Apr 22, 2000 at 00:10:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- introverts unite -:- Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 03:33:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- introverts unite -:- Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 13:32:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Highly/Ultra-sensitive men and women -:- Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 15:54:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- introverts unite -:- Sat, Apr 22, 2000 at 04:43:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- extroverted intros -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 06:17:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- and it has been my downfall -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 17:56:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- oh I wouldnt call it that -:- Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 18:30:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Hey, you can fly in! -:- Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 22:05:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- I answered you above -:- Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 23:43:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie -:- so what are the details? -:- Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 12:44:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- got it -:- Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 17:24:14 (GMT)
__ JW -:- Is there a 'fee' or 'donation'? (nt) -:- Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 21:08:10 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Gratitude expected !! nt -:- Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 21:32:32 (GMT)

Elan Vital -:- North American Tour -:- Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 20:02:00 (GMT)
__ Angry -:- Notify Venues-'The Speaker' is a CULT leader(NT) -:- Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 07:35:02 (GMT)
__ AKA Bert Russell -:- North American Tour -:- Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 20:49:54 (GMT)
__ __ JW -:- How About If We Leaflet for Upcoming Events? -:- Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 21:12:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- I'd go and sell CD's all the good stuff on them -:- Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 23:25:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ A.P. -:- Mia event in.................. -:- Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 21:20:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Rob -:- They have a nice coffee bar in the lobby......... -:- Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 23:11:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Looking for a roommate? -:- Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 23:18:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Well actually... -:- Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 23:46:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Well obviously .... -:- Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 23:57:07 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- I'd never get in -:- Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 21:08:31 (GMT)
__ JW -:- North American Tour -:- Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 20:45:14 (GMT)
__ __ JW -:- More Questions.... -:- Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 20:49:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ EV-ex -:- JW- Some ANSWERS -:- Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 22:02:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JW -:- More Questions. -:- Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 01:05:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Angry -:- More Questions./Turn Around -:- Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 07:46:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- More answer -:- Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 01:53:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JW -:- Media in Los Angeles -:- Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 01:00:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Rupie Murdoch -:- Media in Los Angeles -:- Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 03:44:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Way -:- Re:R.Scheer of the LA Times -:- Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 14:46:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Miami angle -:- Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 01:36:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Reasons for heavy security -:- Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 23:33:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Daneane -:- Hey!! You are posting in the wrong time zone!(nt) -:- Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 23:49:59 (GMT)

Jim -:- Is TD right? Are premies possibly CHEESEBALLS??! -:- Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 14:25:23 (GMT)
__ Monmot -:- Is TD right? Are premies possibly CHEESEBALLS??! -:- Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 00:06:30 (GMT)
__ Powerman -:- Is TD right? Are premies possibly CHEESEBALLS??! -:- Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 23:38:51 (GMT)
__ Angry -:- Fatso Ji will even SCAM the disabled(NT) -:- Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 18:55:10 (GMT)


Date: Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 08:29:57 (GMT)
From: Peter Howie
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Always being right - and learning from it
Message:
Hi there. The following is a work in progress and would be glad of any additional inputs from you my earstwhile colleagues from the days of strong belief and cult living.

I've been cogitating on the similarities and differences between how I am now and how I was then. 'Now' being in an established relationship, enjoying my work, delightful family, challenges and tribilations - all embraced. 'Then' being in the ashram - sometimes a 'good' ashram, with great service and ashram buddies sometimes the ashram from hell, service from hell and surrounded by wierdos.

Anyway one area of similarity I notice in myself is the area of self-righteousness. Or more maybe more correctly,
self-rightness. I do recall feeling strongly 'right' in what I was doing and saying. I remember thinking through what I was doing and presented with. I also know that I had large 'blind-spots' that meant my thinking was less than complete. I feel strongly 'right' in what I am doing and saying now. I also know that I have large blind-spots now - but different ones from back then. And now I encourage others and myself to challenge my blind spots as I do theirs.

The relevance of this thought process to this forum is either tenuous or strong depending on your point of view. Given the nature of this forum beast - that is the written form of communication, time between read and response etc - i.e. it isn't direct for many nor many peoples preferred way to communicate and what is said can be raked over so people tend to be more cautious etc. Anyway I notice in myself a strangely familiar feeling that I used to get in the 'good ole ashram days'. That is the feeling of being right about something. In this case being right about what a dissappointment, slimeball, crook, demagogue etc is Rawat and the terrible cronies that follow him.

Now this is a tricky area. It ain't that he isn't those things. And it ain't that the feeling of rightness shouln't be there. The problem is that I had it (the feeling of rightness) then and I have it now. So how has it served me well in all this time and what sort of guage is it in any case?

Well after asking this question I am going to have to think about it for a while. But my first response is that it hasn't served me well at all. So where does that leave me now - probably with continuing work to do.

For your considerations and comment if you care to.

Cheers

Peter Howie

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Date: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 00:26:36 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Peter Howie
Subject: Learning from life through choices, right or wrong
Message:
Thank you for your post Peter. I think you ask some important questions of yourself and everyone. The question of being right or wrong often seems to me to boil down to some kind of competition - winning an argument. It's certainly clear that our current culture values 'the right answer' over understanding. I used to like math for that 'precise' reason.

A while ago I posted Ouspensky's spin on this polarisation in 'A New Model of the Universe,'

In ordinary life we think by thesis and antithesis; always and everywhere there is 'yes' or 'no,' 'no or 'yes.' In thinking differently, in thinking in a new way, in thinking by means of signs of things, I came to understand the fundamental errors of our mental process. In reality, everywhere and in every case there were not two but three elements. There were not only 'yes' and 'no,' but 'yes ' and 'no' and something else besides. and it was precisely the nature of this 'third' element, inaccessible to the understanding, which made all ordinary reasonings unsuitable and demanded a change in the basic method. I saw that the solution of all problems always came from a third, unknown, element, that is to say, it came from a third and unknown side, and that without this third element it was impossible to arrive at a right solution.

I don't think/feel/believe that life can be boiled down to questions of 'right or wrong', nor would I want it to be so. There is no meaning to life in that kind of context - we may as well be programmed like machines. Many of us may already have been by our own culture. Chomsky talks about 'news bites': those quick pithy answers so popular in (essential to?) news reports, and how this limits and manipulates the information we receive, as well as what kind of answers we want (simple ones?). Another example that I think that most of us can relate to is the meaninglessness of yes/no 'facts'-only oriented exams.

Are you seeking to be right, to find the right, 'irrefutable' position from which you can feel superior to others who have made the 'wrong' decision, or to understand? (I don't think that's necessarily so in your case.) To me the real problem lies in the tendency for some to try to wield 'power' over others by passing judgement on them, or trying to influence their choices through cohercion or manipulation, which are rightly each individual's own to make .

Hope some of my musings can be of use to you.

Stonor


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Date: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 01:03:01 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Bullshit
Message:
If we were talking about the pros and cons of jazz or maybe the Republican party, you'd be right that 'right' and 'wrong' are rigid, artificial and ultimately misleading categorizations. But Maharaji is either a fraud or he isn't. He's either a cult leader or Lord of the Universe. Take your pick.
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Date: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 01:18:38 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Bullshit always flys too fast!
Message:
Wow, you're fast Jim. But I wasn't thinking as narrowly as only of m being a fraud or not. As you and a few others have acknowledged though, he was conditioned by his culture and upbringing into believing he was 'right,' and, dare I say it, am I 'right' on this at least in someway? In fact, my post (and the quote) was basicly about making personal choices, and or others who try to make them for you (or vice versa), the latter being what I find to be a real problem - a good example being m's trip.
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Date: Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 20:03:56 (GMT)
From: infinity trade
Email: infinity_trade@yahoo.com
To: Peter Howie threadees
Subject: Always being right - and learning from it
Message:
I lived in an Ashram myself. Never felt Everything was right ever. Somethings seemed right some not. Other Premise well as crazy as anybody else. Kults? this page is one example, BUT knowlege, its mine all mine and it cost me nought. But before ya all say I'm not part of the world. Don't be so silly. I have seen some real kult group minds in here. All sayin the same. All vying to knock M with any bit of stuff true or false they pick up. But hey. I'm not perfect, but this knowlege sure works for me. Obvious to me who has mine, and practised it my way, in your world. In Europe there is a mammel called a Lemming that alegidly forms into groups and for one reason or another runs as a huge army forward even over cliffs. Now that is how I see group mentality, western milaterism, mammon kults, mass hysteria. Tasted it in different places didn't like. Will stick with the knowlege, thank you. Maharaji, don't know him personally, spoke to him once, seemed ok to me. Done me a big favour, cost me nothing, gave a couple of notes once. God how they prattel while the machine guns rattle. They hide their face from war, and argue the wee man is not so near as far. Read three words and slag me as is your write tarrar. I'll be back.
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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 05:23:20 (GMT)
From: Peter Howie
Email: None
To: infinity trade
Subject: Always being right - and learning from it
Message:
In jails there are heaps of people who say
'It was their fault'
'I'm better than them'
'The world sucks but I don't'

In other words - they are one up to the rest of humanity or at least the humanity they experience and imagine.

I think your post illustrates well the tendency for you and me and others to move into a position of 'I'm right and you are wrong'. My disturbance is mostly about how feeling right can be manufactured to fit a situation and can also, when it arises in the course of life, lead me up blind alleys.

Cheers

Peter

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Date: Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 20:11:29 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: infinity trade
Subject: Think about this, you stupid, stupid fuck
Message:
I have seen some real kult group minds in here. All sayin the same. All vying to knock M with any bit of stuff true or false they pick up.

Did you ever consider the possibility that we're all saying the 'same thing' because it's true?

Imagine for a moment that we'd all been in a cult that thought the world was flat. We get out and then all agree that the world isn't flat. Are we just as trapped as before? According to your stupid way of thinking, we must be. After all, we once all believed 'x' and now all seem to believe 'not x'. It's that simple, right?

You're a major dunce if you can't think any better than that, fella!

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Date: Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 20:41:04 (GMT)
From: infinity trade
Email: infinity_trade@yahoo.com
To: Jim
Subject: Think about this, you stupid, stupid fuck.Temper!
Message:
Of course I have thought that nutter, years ago. However I realised, words never express the full truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth, EVER. You can see I got a bit wrong can't you. YOU actually read more than three words but did not digest, ingest or understand it ALL. Neither do I mate. BUT the meditation works for me all the same. See that bit that M has the premies secret code stuff. YOU say This anti Kult is not a KULT? Don't make me larf.
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Date: Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 21:00:25 (GMT)
From: infinity trade
Email: infinity_trade@yahoo.com
To: infinity trade
Subject: Think about this, you .........Temper! (expurgated
Message:
You say in part, check the rest please.

Did you ever consider the possibility that we're all saying the 'same thing' because it's true?

Imagine for a moment that we'd all been in a cult that thought the world was flat. We get out and then all agree that the world isn't flat. Are we just as trapped as before? According to your stupid way of thinking, we must be. After all, we once all believed 'x' and now all seem to believe 'not x'. It's that simple, right?
I say
Of course I have thought that nutter, years ago. However I realised, words never express the full truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth, EVER. You can see I got a bit wrong can't you. YOU actually read more than three words but did not digest, ingest or understand it ALL. Neither do I mate. BUT the meditation works for me all the same. See that bit that M has the premies secret code stuff. YOU say This anti Kult is not a KULT? Don't make me larf.

Oddly you are all saying the same thing because 'ITS' true, but what is the 'IT' you are all saying. My 'IT' I can't say. Perhaps you are not saying your 'IT'. Is it cousin 'IT'?
YEH the Flat earth, wow, now the round earth round and round in space. What Next? Do you follow the logical vector?

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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 21:46:58 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: infinity trade
Subject: Far out, man. Like wow yea I can follow that
Message:
logical vector all the way out to the infinity trading zone, man. It's like, so cosmic and everything.

Prem Rawat claimed to be God in human form, etc. He brainwashed people, messed with people's heads, etc.

He is not God, etc.

Prem Rawat now claims to be 'The Master', etc. He still brainwashes people, messes with people's heads, etc.

This Forum serves a number of purposes, including helping people deprogram themselves and providing information - most of it concrete fact - about Prem Rawat and Co. People who follow Rawat or intend to should be aware of this information.

What is so hard to understand?

Whether the techniques 'work' for you or others is another issue.

The philosophical views expressed at the Forum vary widely. So how is it a cult? Believing that Prem Rawat is not God is a cultish belief? Don't make me laugh.

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Date: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 10:13:29 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: G
Subject: OT G, would you please....
Message:
email Robyn or JM? We want to talk with you, or call Robyn....or email us your phone number....

SB

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Date: Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 20:56:16 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: infinity trade
Subject: Oh, great! You're autistic. Sorry, I didn't know
Message:
Why not just give up words altogether? Words, ideas .... who needs them? Ruff, ruff! Ruff, ruff!!
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Date: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 20:45:44 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Infinity guy
Subject: Yo, infinity.....
Message:
Hey, infi (I can call you that, right?), you said, 'Of course I have thought that nutter, years ago. However I realised, words never express the full truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth, EVER......'

So, tell me..... is it really true and totally true and nothing but the truth that DNA is the 'term' used to describe deoxyribonucleic acid? Is it true that the word Cepheid is used to describe a particularly consistent type of variable star? Is it true that elements heavier than iron were created in a supernova?

Hint: The answer to each and every question is YES and it IS the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

There are MANY other examples that make your statement about 'words' look pretty stupid.

It seems to me that the only thing that 'words' have a problem describing are things that don't really exist (kind of indescribable, no?) or .....ahem ...... 'feelings.' Are 'feelings' ALWAYS TRUE? Well, I know alot of folks who have had their 'feelings' hurt in error. Additionally, I know alot of folks who were 'elated' in error, too! (Witness the person who thinks they just won a million bucks and finds out differently). Hey, elation is elation..... it matters not how you got there. So, NO..... feelings aren't any closer to the absolute truth than a thought/word is.

All you guys are doing is 'rebelling' against rational thought. A long, long time ago someone told you to think (like maybe in school, for example). You found out that it was hard and that it didn't answer every single damned question immediately (part of the fun of thinking IS thinking your way to a solution, ya know!)..... SO, you rebelled and said, 'thinking sucks, 'cause it doesn't answer every single question right this second....' Ahhhhhhhhhhh...... NOW I GET IT...... I should 'just feel,' because it answers all of my questions! NO, infinity...... 'feeling' doesn't answer ANY question...... a 'question' is a thought that has been asked; an 'answer' is a thought that has been conveyed in response to the question. 'Feelings' can't 'answer' ANY question. Even the 'question,' 'how do you feel?' is a THOUGHT being conveyed. You can't separate them, yet you will try and try......

Youthful rebellion against the 'established' idea that logical/rational thought is a really good idea..... that's all that K is. I've got a suggestion..... Try to 'feel' a good idea. Try to 'organize' any event in your daily life with a 'feeling.' THEN, after you realize the futility of non-thought.... GROW UP! See????? Our teachers may have actually known what they were talking about..... THINK!

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Date: Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 21:04:15 (GMT)
From: infinity trade
Email: infinity_trade@yahoo.com
To: Jim
Subject: Oh, great! PC Sorry, I didn't know
Message:
Oh b PC sometimes eh. My reply has anticipated and preceeded your answer. BUT further brick walls are handy, not always true and we don't need them all the time. Try chewing a brick and talking. Soberly if you want to bang you head on a brick wall at least charge entrance.
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Date: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 20:56:27 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: infinity trade
Subject: Wait, YOU ARE RIGHT!
Message:
Infi: You said, '.....Soberly if you want to bang you head on a brick wall at least charge entrance.'

YOU ARE RIGHT, premie 'thought' is NEVER right, EVER! (Hey, I'm just using YOUR words). I'll add that it is never logical or rational, either. In fact, I'll even go so far as to say that it is incapable of conveying ANY idea. So now, PROVE ME WRONG using your sentence, above! I might advise that you try making up a new one, but that's just a suggestion.

I'd be really worried if I were you. I'm not sure that K doesn't actually destroy brain cells. Judging from your attempt to convey a thought, it appears that it is a definite possibility. I've read stuff written by burnt-out meth users that made more sense (and we ALL know what meth does to the brain!)

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Date: Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 21:07:04 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: infinity trade
Subject: Ruff ruff!! (nt)
Message:
I said 'ruff ruff', didn't I? Now what part of ruff ruff don't you understand?
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Date: Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 21:33:51 (GMT)
From: infinity trade
Email: infinity_trade@yahoo.com
To: Jim
Subject: Ruff ruff!! (nt)
Message:
Oh I understood that bit quite clearly. But I was not aware I had thrown you a bone. Ha Ha Ha. It works for me despite words.
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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 09:22:18 (GMT)
From: dogvotee
Email: None
To: infinity trade
Subject: Sumwun call me? Ruff ruff , lick Guroos arse. NT
Message:
lick lick
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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 21:12:47 (GMT)
From: infinity trade
Email: infinity_trade@yahoo.com
To: dogvotee
Subject: Sumwun call me? Ruff ruff , lick Guroos arse. NT
Message:
well I suppose you are talkin from experience
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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 17:00:49 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: dogvotee
Subject: that's a cute name NT
Message:
NT
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Date: Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 17:36:53 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Peter Howie
Subject: You're right. Maybe he really IS the Lord
Message:
Got to keep an open mind on these things.

Peter,

Seriously, think about it. You went far, far far out on a limb in terms of trusting this guru who claimed to be God, the creator of all, walking on earth. If you're not entitled to feel a little 'rightness' in coming to terms with your 'wrongness' then what fun is this? Do you think former members of Jonestown are entitled to think they wee following a madman? With certainty, I mean? How about former followers of that one-time child evangelist, Marjoe Gortner, someone mentioned a few weeks ago? Is it cool for them to accept as fact that they were hoodwinked? Does it matter so much that in Marjoe's case he admitted it but Maharaji hasn't?

One benefit of believing something as stupid as what we believed is that you really can feel absolutely certain you're now right when you realize how wrong you were.

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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 05:30:30 (GMT)
From: Peter Howie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You're right. Maybe he really IS the Lord
Message:
I think you have a point Jim - when it goes so far out it is ok and wise to fell right about it. And this forum is full of some of that 'rightness' and I love it. Its not up for debate in a general sense (apart from premies and definitional discourses).

And I do love many aspects of this forum - the discussion, the fights, the displays the arguments, the stories - oddly enough I love darshan stories - but for the opposite reason - or at least a very different reason. For instance - I remember a 'sister' falling into pranam at the Brisbane residence when she thought she saw Maharaj Ji in the distance - it wasn't him it was some other hanger-on. That spooked me a bit - she was crying and wailing and talking about her 'experience'.

I think I am trying to find how to calibrate my internal radar that tracks 'dingbats' and dangerous people. I reckon my radar is miles ahead of where it was then, thank god, grud or crom.

Cheers

Peter Howie

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Date: Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 11:29:03 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Peter Howie
Subject: Always being right - and learning from it
Message:
Hi Pete

I should just like to apologise in advance for the diatribe which your very honest post has sparked off. I guess its more about me than you - but here goes....

Truth is never black and white.

NEVER.

Well... perhaps sometimes.

We do not like things to be unresolved. We seek certainty.

In seeking the safety of a belief - we are playing out an ancient human characteristic - which has allowed religions and social hierarchies and systems to form on subtle ground (not merely bullying).

On the plus side - out of such a 'doubt'- has grown much of man's higher and finer aspiration - art, literature, and more fundamentally LANGUAGE. We NEED to share our view of the world, to harmonise and validate ourselves with others.Tribal instinct - less articulately played out among packs of hyenas, lions, wilderbeast, shrews.....

M - Devil or Saint ? It would be facile and insulting if you were to categorise anybody else (my Mum - or friends, or myself)along such extreme and symplistic lines. We are all complex and interwoven human beings - I reckon that a lot of the whole anti M backlash which we have all felt is equal and opposite in neccessity and effect to the pro-M frenzy which injured so many people. Subtly, I think it is true - the higher the pedastal - the lower the self esteem of the pedastal builder.

As far as the 'blind spot' goes, it is probably central to any persons journey through life - that we cannot see ourselves or be truly objective. We are always (because we are in the picture) partial.

Perhaps for years as a Premie you have held a 'world view' which did not (despite the evidence) ring universally true - and therefore issues like doubt and the ignorance of others raised their ugly heads and were used (conciously or not) to reinforce a belief system. You needed to believe and be surrounded by people who supported that investment - after all 100,000 people can't be wrong ??

But now -in allying yourself with a lifestyle (and in so doing being no different from the majority of the opinionated, politically and tribally inflamed classes who validate themselves with their self 'right-ness') - are you not merely expousing a secular version of a once spiritual superiority complex ?

Perhaps you have exposed the nuts and bolts of social psychology - and some of the keys to identity. We 'read' our sense of self from other peoples reactions to us - ever since children.Safety in numbers.

The fact that these questions have been raised in you lends me to wonder if you are doubting the assumptions on which 'normal, stable' life is based - or just doubting yourself.

For a long time within M's world, self (and social) doubts have been sown along the lines that 'there is nothing for me in the world' - 'truth is within' etc. All disempowering - dis -enfranchising lines - which lead to a displacement of trust. The higher the pedastal - the lower the self esteem.

The world is not an illusion - no more than is Knowledge. The more holistic approach is to love the permenant in all its temporary manifestations - not to divorce the two in a schitzophrenic polarisation. We are constructed (as is M) from social and psychological scripting - we are as much a product of our environment - as it is a reflection of us. And we are constantly interracting, evolving in a negotiated relationship with our self and surroundings.Its a passion play.

The more that M is viewed NOT as a product of understandable factors - but of a mysterious 'grace' - the more we by default, will want to remove ourselves out of the realm of psychological understanding (which is a great threat to many Premies - or indeed anyone with a belief system) and retreat to a defensive position which is self-protecting, indulgent and un-arguable. 'It feels right'

So - your question - which is deeply honest and deeply troubling - is for me as much about the nature and the value of doubt, as the dangers of over certainty.

Some of us are still fixated on M - whether positively or negatively. However I would urge that we should not be as interested in him as in what we have known of ourselves. We have shown so much of ourselves by our reaching out to each other and our journeys AWAY provide an utterly satisfying conclusion to our journey TO knowledge.(Much more so than do the saccharine espousals of self-deception on ELK.

We are always evolving. I guess you are wary of making the same mistake again - but even if you have a blind spot - keep turning your head. It matters less if you are actually engaged in something - rather than simply agonising about your self, which is introspective....and a tad Premie like. I spent years pre-occupied with whether I was having an experience or not !!

In giving ourselves - we flow out of the bubble of self-preservation - and begin to make contact with the larger sense of self - ourselves in others.

Long live the Revolution !! Good luck mate. Sorry for going off on one !

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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 05:43:47 (GMT)
From: Peter Howie
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Always being right - and learning from it
Message:
Dear Loaf,

A great read. (Yeah I read on before I responded) I don't disagree with practically anything you said, nor your right to say it. It does, though, treat me a a bit of a dolt. But I reckon you are responding in a well meaning and a bit like a learned friend or wise uncle perhaps. Something I said got you slightly anxious on my behalf - I think. So I appreciate you taking the time to respond which is what I invited you and the other forum colleagues to do.

These posts are really tough. Do I say to much or too little. I've definitely posted a few longies over the time on here.

One of my major orientations at the moment is about how to develop myself as a learner. That is - how do I continue to learn from life and not settle for what I know now or understand now? So that leads me in this forum to consider the quesions that I have. One of my primary tenets of learning (pinched from Jack Meizarow)is that learning only takes place when there is an inconsistancy between a belief of the world and the way the world actually presents itself. That would mean that I and others were working very hard during the GMJ years to make sure that the real world fitted with the idea.

Another belief I have, which you alluded to in your response, is that knowledge is a socially created thing. That is we create a common meaning together by our discussions, meetings and postings together. Much as we did as premies. Much as any cultural group does.

Cheers

Peter

ps I like the idea or world view you finished with about giving and finding myself in a larger world where I am part of others. Man, there was a lot of different ideas in there.

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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 14:57:38 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: Loafji@yahoo.com
To: Peter Howie
Subject: A wise old uncle in his doltage.....
Message:
Pete

Thanks for responding - as I subsequently expressed - I didn't mean to point my philosophical musings at you - they just sort of came out that way !

The habit of 'sounding off' like a wise uncle (or any other patronising form) - is one leaned long and hard at the feet of an non-equal master - the interesting relationships (of growth and empathy) seem to lead me more into understanding another persons point of view without seeking to judge or correct it.

This I am learning from my work in the theatre. There is much to be said for analysing and understanding the dynamics of DLM and M in terms of staging and performance - the 'subtle inner mask of intention' as I call it.

We can talk later. email me if ya want.

Bye for now

Loaf

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Date: Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 20:01:05 (GMT)
From: trixie
Email: None
To: Loaf and Peter
Subject: Being right vs being right
Message:
Very good things to think about.
For me, the time in my life when I gave myself to the Lord was a very tender time. Having a partner and being in love was one thing, but meeting god face to face was another. This woke up the deepend most profound spawned-from-study-of -the-Catholic-saints sense of devotion and solemn vow to the Lord of Lords.
I means it is why people get sainted. I was 100% devoted to HIS GRACE first and him second.

Now then, (ahem) after I got the message in my heart about the fraud that I had swollowed about HIS GRACE- I had to debrief myself about Mahaha himself.

Parallell to this there were other things going on- IE breaking up with the so called mate, realizing that the USA was not the statue of Liberty style of government I had believed in while I was growing up, ect ect ect

When these things truths started to become real to me- it was the polar opposite of where I had been.

Getting catapulted to that opposite pole did make me self righteous about THE TWO POLES. However Peter , you are on the right track that there was a time that bieng right was a problem for me. But I also wonder if this is not also a trait of a time in life- like Katie is saying (I think)

Anyway- now I like to think that I still can call a spade a spade
but after having been to the two poles I am equally certain that
each person has 360 degrees 7D of hemisphere in angles of opinion - thought and conviction entitled to them. ANd me in my benevelent goodness always strives to grant them that right to use the points on the hemisphers as a point of reference.

However- nothing can take away the fact that I have seen both poles and I know what believing in a falsehood is and I know what recognising falseness is.

As to the extent of Makakas fraud- I feel , continuing the analogy- that it is a virtual duplication of the sphere of our references that mirrors exactly every feasible point of reference we can possbly have and thereby corrupts it.

What makes the fraud corrupt of the most sinister kind is that it exploits the basic human gift we all have- which is somewhere inside, to feel that there is something bigger than us- be it god spirit soul gia grace telelpathy or grok.

By exploiting this one pinpoint in us- Mahaha has the code to total corruption of premies. By targetting this one pinpoint- the virtual mirroring sphere automatically materiallises.

So this is tricky business

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Date: Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 16:02:35 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: My last post ^^
Message:
Upon revisiting (in order to see if anybody had posted flattering responses to my erudition and wisdom (No chance ED.)- I have just read my last missive back - and being written quickly I was disappointed to find that it reads quite harshly . I seem to have picked up one end (probably wrong as usual) of a stick and run off and worried it into a tattered mess.

And since other people seem to be posting hostile and inarticulate responses - I just want to make it 150% clear that I wasn't talking to anybody but myself - even though it reads a bit pointedly.

Sorry. I just got over - excited.Don't all start.

Loaf

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Date: Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 16:07:45 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: My last post ^^
Message:
I didn't think it was harsh. I thought it was respectful to the honesty of Peter by being honest itself.

I liked your mention of the danger of too much certainty.

'I am certain of some definite errors in my thinking, example, knowing I can't know.' - Mike Watt

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Date: Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 16:21:10 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Loaf, Peter, Daneane
Subject: My last post ^^
Message:
I liked your post, too, Loaf, and I also didn't think it was too harsh.

As far as the dangers of self-righteousness go - I think not being self-righteous is something we learn as we get older. I remember thinking that I had the 'answer' when I was a premie, and also at other times in my life. I think that the more we find out that the 'answer' we had was NOT the 'answer', or what we thought was true was not true, we tend to be more self-examining, less self-righteous, and less judgemental. I know that I tend to see most things in shades of gray now, whereas when I was younger, I tended to see things as black or white.

When I was really young, one of my 4th grade teachers wrote 'May you learn enough to discover how little you really know' in my autograph book. I was really puzzled by this - I almost thought it was insulting. Now I think it's a very wise statement, although it took me a few decades to even understand what it meant.

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Date: Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 14:40:26 (GMT)
From: Russ Hinze
Email: None
To: Big Foot in Mouth..The Y
Subject: Always being right - and learning from it
Message:
Your problem was simple Howie:You were a believer.You should have been a Catholic. Rites and ritual. When you die Howie ,you'll work it out....in a split second.You remind me of that old Eighties gag...What's the difference between Pete and a computer? None, you have to punch the information into both of them.
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Date: Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 16:39:51 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Russ Hinze
Subject: Always the coward, eh Cat?
Message:
Put your real name on it, if you want to impress the girls, asshole. As it is, you're just a lame cult member behind a mask spitting like a ten year-old.

You're never as funny as you think you are. Never. You never say anything worth even thinking about, let alone responding to.

You're just a piece of shit in the form of a human being as far as I can tell.

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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 05:07:31 (GMT)
From: The SouthernSpottedQuoll
Email: A Very infrequent visitor, Furtive and Nocturnal
To: Jim
Subject: eh Jim?
Message:
Why Jim , so very kind of you.

message edited

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Date: Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 14:47:01 (GMT)
From: More hostile
Email: None
To: Russ Hinze
Subject: crap from Catweasel above. (FA: delete?)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 14:46:14 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Russ Hinze
Subject: to Russ/Cat
Message:
Cat (for I assume it's you) -
Will you PLEASE stop harassing Peter Howie! Every time the guy posts you get on his case with irrelevant personal criticism. I like his posts very much - they are honest and self-examining. Obviously you have a problem with him in the Real World - well, we ALL know it by now, so I wish you'd just lay off.

Sincerely,
Katie

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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 05:47:06 (GMT)
From: Peter Howie
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: to Russ/Cat
Message:
Thanks Katie,

I appreciate your comments and the support. What really bugs me is the idea that I know this person Catweasel. When or if I ever find out who they are I'll probably say 'AH it was so abvious'.

Cheers

Peter Howie

PS I have enjoyed many of your posts over time as well as the personal note you often bring to the forum.

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Date: Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 18:09:48 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: to Russ/Cat, also to Pete
Message:
Cat or Russ,
It is after all a self-examination on the part of an ex, questioning his own self-righteousness. Why act hostile toward him in that act?

Peter,
You had a post a few weeks back about the superiority of stating one's opinions as 'thoughts' versus 'feelings' (i.e., better to say 'I think' than 'I feel'). I found the post bizarre, to say the least, but didn't feel like dealing with what seemed like a politically correct agreement by a dozen or so exes.

Don't people use 'I feel' to indicate subjectivity in their
opinion and avoid this 'rightness'? They see their opinion as a choice they make for themselves.

Nobody can recreate themselves as a ultra-rational being just because they see M as a 'feeling' one. There's just no such thing.

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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 05:20:27 (GMT)
From: Peter Howie
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: to Russ/Cat, also to Pete
Message:
Hi There,

You could have a point. In the context of my previous post I was interested in how satsang actually moved away from many feelings while utilising the terminology of 'feelings'. It seems to me on reflection that it is an intellectually dishonest process. So I guess, yes, it is a way of expressing a point of view that is a bit wobly. However these days I might tend to express myself like 'I have an idea that I am still working on and goes something like this....' etc.

What I have found is that people use the term 'I feel that' when they are really talking about their intellectual opinions and ideas. Try this sometime. Ask someone how they really feel about something - their life, their loves etc - especially ask a 'bloke'. Many times you will find that they answer comes in the form of 'I feel that...' with little or no relationship to any 'feelings' as such.

For instance if I discussed how it feels to have Cat's responses I could say 'I feel that he is a troubled soul in need of assistance etc' or I could say 'I feel shithouse when he does and I am very angry'

Cheers

Peter

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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 18:01:21 (GMT)
From: Russ Hinze the Ultimate
Email: Fat Cat!!
To: Peter Howie
Subject: to Russ/Cat, also to Pete
Message:
Hey , I feel great! You could write a book and call it 'the importance of being earnest'..
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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 06:09:59 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Peter Howie
Subject: to Peter
Message:
Sure, people really get mushy and vague and hide behind 'feelings'. It is a perfectly valid point but all the communications problems of the world (or of this forum say) are not going to reduce to this one issue. Truthfully, I'd rather feel my way through things than think if there was such a choice. Clearly there is not. Nor do thinking and feeling cover all of our experiential, proactive ground internally. These are not the only two process at work in me, anyway.

Personally, I see 'gut' reaction and intuition as more feeling (than thought) oriented but still not 'feeling' per se. I move as slowly as I can in order to use as much reason as possible, but my initial gut reaction usually anticipates the end result. The word 'feel' fits better than think for a gut reaction. I'm usually thinking my way through without committing to my initial reaction. If you corner me, I may tell you how I 'feel' if I'm cooperating, but I'll stick to 'think' in part to remain uncommitted.

And that's not bad. Every encounter isn't a marriage.

As far as Cat goes, he looks to me like he'd rather fight than talk. Why that is, I'm not so sure but both of your possible opinions of him seemed to show a lot of emotional investment. There is a lot of feeling in both statements. The first seems more BS. Why do you think Cat is the way he is? It would be more of a question of thought (to analyze why) and I guess at this point you can only say you 'feel' pissed off about it or something like that.

Are we on the same page still?

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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 06:52:36 (GMT)
From: Peter Howie
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: to Peter
Message:
Same page, same page.

You are right that there are other ways of using the term 'feeling' or 'feelings'. Your suggestion is one way and there are others. At the moment I've lost my original impetus in this discussion. Or maybe I'm in a rush to walk the dogs before nightfall. Or maybe I feel slightly defeated?

I think that I can see how you use it. I would also think that my process is often very similar to yours. However can you see the other process I am talking about? Where it is used sloppily and is an effective (and perhaps unconscious) cover for other underlying processes. I think this is the questions I would be keen to hear from you. Granted there are lots of othere things going on as well. But have you noticed this process at all?

Cheers

Peter Howie

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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 18:59:38 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Peter Howie
Subject: to Peter
Message:
I definitely agree- it's a valid point and it's a 70's Miragey kinda thing that we do. I'm not sure how much miscommunication should be attributed to it, though. I also think people still need to learn to feel (and that's 70's of me as well) instead of think at least some of the time.

My main point/response is that I try to not overcommit to being right- If I'm not the head of the U.S, Military, for example, whether or not the U.S. goes to war isn't actually my decision. If I'm asked my opinion, I try to remember that I don't actually have the decision on my shoulders per se.

Sometimes I get a little more time to judge something that way. My orientation isn't toward 'rightness' in that sense, but in fact in avoiding 'rightness' in favor of being comfortable with the (fewer) decisions that I have to make.

Anyway, you raise worthwhile issues. Maybe it's a slow start to get some discussion going.

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Date: Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 06:43:07 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: You know what's really funny? This ........
Message:
Maharaji's links. Who'd have ever imagined that the Speaker of the Universe himself would finally deign to communicate with all mankind via the timely World-Wide Web, only to lead us -- oops, sorry, I forgot he's not a leader per se -- make that only to turn us on to:

The BBC

CNN

Travel Advisory

Weather Channel

and, my personal favorite:

Quicktime

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Date: Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 14:47:50 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: And what do you 'turn on' when you 'turn on'?
Message:
I often have to remind my students to turn on their brains! Just a friendly reminder that they have one - they usually laugh, and I don't know exactly how they do it, but they begin to think a little more.

There is some kind of contradiction to m's earlier take on 'not thinking,' isn't there? (Take note Deputy Dog!)

And doesn't he mention the CBC, Jim?!!! No respect for, or appreciation of Canuckland, I guess. Maybe I should e-mail that other post to him and Northernenlighten him!

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Date: Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 06:25:58 (GMT)
From: ET
Email: 74452.1254@compuserve.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Easter Sermon: God is Real
Message:
God is real. He exists. I think it would be a shame if our experience with a cult would turn us into atheists or skeptical of any kind of spirituality. Just because we indulged our fantasy that Maharaji really was the Lord of the Universe, shouldn't turn us off from the Real God. (You know, the one you meet when you die.)

Science has limits when it comes to the absolute questions. Sure, I believe in evolution - nothing about that theory excludes God. Even science believes in the Big Bang.

God is real. He exists. Get used to it.

-ET

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Date: Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 21:40:29 (GMT)
From: Devil's Advocate
Email: None
To: ET
Subject: Says YOU
Message:
God is an ancient superstition, created by man, to explain things he can't understand.
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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 09:28:11 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Devil's Advocate
Subject: Who created who?
Message:
Man created God in his own image.
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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 00:20:41 (GMT)
From: ET
Email: 74452.1254@compuserve.com
To: Devil's Advocate
Subject: Hey, I used to be an atheist, too (nt)
Message:
atheist
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Date: Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 07:31:36 (GMT)
From: bill boik
Email: None
To: ET
Subject: Dawn Discharge
Message:
After doing the easter thing, hide eggs, I left at 10;30 for a 29th anniversary concert of this local pure american band.
They asked if anyone was at any of thier 1971 origional concerts and Dang if I wasn't there.

It was one of those Transformational Events that I manage to fit in about every six months.

To me prem rawat played god in person and frankly, I experienced that. I guess the power of belief....One of those *Apostle* type guys said ....wait, make that Yeshua(jesus), HE said.......... *As you believe, so shall it be done unto you*
Hmmm, I am glad it wasnt coming from my living lord. Because he drives you off a cliff. Better to face reality and try to ask for a dream and the time and spirit to make it come true.

I have learned that the damn oneness is aware, and is sure nuff concious. The dynamic to understand is that it has two faces,
Yeshua(jesus) said it true......the devil knows not whom he serves......A long running good/bad struggle courtesy of free will.
IT IS BETTER THAN INSTINCT!
DNA is a narrow minded master.

The free will human is competely unique and independent and has
a concious living force to guide him naturally through human nature and occasionally through another human.

The ways to express and live in joy with others is to imitate children and I know just what that means as one of the people here is a 7 year old and he is in joy.

To love and find joy in your doings and relationships and to have one also with that Existent Awake One. Someone that will do this deal with you.............As You Believe, So Shall It Be Done Unto You..........That sounds like an invitation to Dream Big and make it come true. The biggest dream is to live the so called Commandment Number One and Only.

*Love god with all your heart and love others and yourself*

Someone went through a dismal hell to tell us that the real ultimate power says that it cares and it's message is that Commandment.
Everyone that wants to tell me that message in thier version
is always like poison to me. It is too simple and any ideas dropped on top is courtesy of that part of the 'force' that
makes a religion, that murphys law part of the 'god'.

Cyber Eggs

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Date: Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 07:57:56 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: bill boik
Subject: And now I know why
Message:
you like my late nite posts!!!

I finally get it!

Cause they are as wacky as yours. I missed doing the grandson easter egg thing. I was really bummed. They had to do a fucking opera. I have a history of hating opera. Grew up in it. Really.
I am an opera orphan. And now am still one on easter.

Your post made sense to me. That is scary. Now I know why you like my posts. finally. YIKES!!!

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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 03:50:40 (GMT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: And now I know why
Message:
Selene,
Your posts are cool.
And funny.
I would have loved to have done the JM tour and seen you also.
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Date: Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 06:30:28 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: ET
Subject: Wishful thinking (nt)
Message:
ff
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Date: Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 02:00:42 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: A swig of Canadian Culture for the deprived
Message:
I tried to send this to Jim earlier today, but his 'Journey' e-mail didn't work. I figure, what the hell, it's Saturday night, and just reading it makes me feel like I'm in a redneck bar sitting on the case of 2-4 that I'm drinking from (not). I've never heard the ad that's mentioned (I guess I should watch a hockey game sometime long enough to catch it - are they still playing? Hey, isn't tonight Hockey Night in Canada??!! I'll go check right after I post. (Thank 'whatever-it-is' I still get 2 English channels without cable!).

This is in no way a reflection of the 'quality' Canadians posting here!

And THIS, 'm', is a beauty way to go for Canadians, so back WAY off or you'll freeze your divine toe-toes off just reading it!

(From a non-premie e-mail friend who left Montreal for TO)

This is an article from the Sunday Sun by Gary Dunford. It's a takeoff
on the Molson's Beer ad 'I'm Canadian'NOT a premie

Hey, I'm not a lumberjack or a fur trader. I don't live in an igloo or
eat blubber or own a dog sled. I watch TV too much. I buy what beer ads tell
me to even though the microbrews taste better and don't give me gunky
headaches. I am Canadian. NOT a premie

I have a prime minister not a president. And I will vote for him again
and again until all my countrymen agree he is as loopy as Trudeau or
Mulroney and we have to beat him off us with sticks. We vote for them
until we kill them. Yet Yanks still say we are a nice people. Go figure.
I am Canadian. NOT a premie

I believe in peacekeeping, not policing; diversity, not assimilation. I
believe ballet dancers should keep dancing until they are 80 years old,
since I'm never gonna watch it anyway. But hockey players should
probably get off the rink before they're 35. I believe serial killers
should go to prison for a while, but smartass kid criminals, maybe not
so long. I love the Leafs. For 30 years. For no good reason. I am
Canadian. NOT a premie

I can proudly sew my country's flag on my backpack. I own two sets of
jumper cables. I have a cable modem AND a phone ISDN and neither of them
work exactly as advertised and I can't do a damn thing about it. I have
never seen HBO or Animal Planet. I know that someday the CRTC will pat
me on the head and let Rogers sell them to me. I pay for the CBC but
prefer Who Wants to Be A Millionaire, a game I cannot play nor win. I
love CNN and A&E. I am Canadian. NOT a premie

I speak English and French, not American, and I pronounce it a-bout, not
a-boot. I pay higher taxes than any citizen in the civilized world, and
recognize everybody but me knows best how they should be spent. I
finance a pension system that will not benefit me in my old age. I load
up my RSP with maximum foreign content. My broker says we'll make a lot
of money in options and high tech. He's 26. I believe him. I am
Canadian. NOT a premie

I believe the beaver is a truly proud and noble animal. I would swerve
for a squirrel but not a snake. I believe somebody else should shovel up
road kill. I believe Mike Harris is evil and Joe Clark is a boob and
Preston Manning is a joke and Jean Chretien is past it and Mel Lastman
is a clown and the only true heroes are actors in plaid flannel shirts
who do TV beer commercials. I hate the GST and carry a lot of cash,
especially if we're remodeling the kitchen. I am Canadian. NOT a premie

I don't know Jimmy, Sally or Suzy from Canada ? although I'm certain
they're really, really nice. I'm glad Elian is not my problem. I know
Wayne's World was a documentary about Scarborough, not a comedy. I
believe doughnuts are good for you. Sometimes I spring for the full
dozen. But I watch my weight, like Monica Lewinsky. I am Canadian. NOT a premie

A tuque is a hat, a chesterfield is a couch and it is pronounced Zed,
not Zee. ZED! A call centre is a necessary barrier between me and the companies
that sell gas, phone, cable that quite rightly don't want to hear from
me. My bank pisses me off. I would change banks, except that I have
already been a customer of all four other banks and they pissed me off
too. I stand in line to talk to an ATM. I pay fees. I simmer. I sulk. I
am Canadian. NOT a premie

I know the cry of the loon is the sweetest sound on the planet. But
since you can't make money in the woods, I do a loon call myself,
usually late at night. I believe in high-speed police chases, unless
they are chasing me. I support the newest Waterfront Redevelopment
Scheme and will like the next one even more. I will drive the two-lane
Gardiner Expressway on the hottest day this July and curse a blue
streak. I'll get in the right-hand lane when I damn well feel like it. I
am Canadian. NOT a premie

I believe in bass boats, rolling up the rim and Saturdays at Canadian
Tire. I say 'Eh' and 'okey-dokey.' I brake for snowbirds and March break. I paid
to build a superhighway across the top of Toronto, paid again to drive
it and will pay a third time to get my licence plate when it turns out
several 407ETR bills were sent to the wrong place. I pay taxes in
quarterly installments, so they can spend it as fast as I earn it. I am
Canadian. NOT a premie

Canada is the second-largest land mass, the first nation of hockey and
the best part of North America! My name is Dunf. And I am Canadian. NOT a premie, eh?!

Thank you. More beer for everybody, quick.

Let's get really, really loaded. Our kind of satsang!

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Date: Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 15:46:08 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Isn't that an oxymoron? he he he :-) (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 21:51:03 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Mike you are too funny
Message:
Had to pipe in.
This coming from someone who had to grow up with the French Canadian mother her 8 brothers and sisters and all the the cousins. (I always tell people I'm Irish, from my dad's side of the family)
They (the French side) were interesting mind you, but...
welll, thanks, that was funny.
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Date: Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 13:23:09 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: A swig of Canadian Culture for the deprived
Message:
Really funny, Stonor...and some things on the list are true for ALL of us, for sure!

P.S. I used to be a big hockey fan (Washington Capitals), and I remember seeing the Maple Leafs fans coming to games with bags over their heads (snicker).

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Date: Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 14:30:30 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: A swig of Canadian Culture for the deprived
Message:
I was never a big sports fan, although in highschool I went to a few Junior B games and dances(!). The 'ALL of us' is referring to North Americans? Yes, those poor Toronto Maple Leaf fans! But since it's been watered down into nothing but a big business spectacle, none of the 'city' teams means much anymore - winning has become too much a function of money, in most sports. I think the last time I watched a bit of hockey with any interest was the first Team Canada against the USSR team. My highschool boyfriend would get tickets to hockey games and I'd decline and stay at home to sew or something. 'Competition' in all areas, especially spectator sports (isn't that an oxymoron?) has gotten on my nerves for years.

In communication studies we looked at an analysis of the Superbowl as mythic spectacle. A very interesting study! It broke down all the time in terms of actual game played, and time spent advertising what. It's really pretty depressing that people so mindlessly 'buy' into it. (Oh boy(?), now I'm being really politically incorrect! Good thing I haven't mentioned soccer!)

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Date: Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 14:41:15 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: A swig of Canadian Culture for the deprived
Message:
Hi Stonor -
Yes, North Americans, and people in Britain and many other countries as well! (Taxes, freeways, complaint calls, etc...) I have traveled a bit in Canada, both for business and pleasure, and I have to say that Canadians seem much more civilized and polite than people in the U.S. - at least the little I've seen. And the Canadian provincial parks are much nicer than the corresponding US National parks! Canada has also got some superb female fiction writers: Mavis Gallant, Margaret Atwood, Alice Munro.

Re: sports. I'm one of those rare females who likes to watch sports on TV - at least I break some pre-conceived notions that people have. My sister is a big football fan, and was able to explain the game to me in a way that made it interesting.

Re the Super Bowl : most of the NFL fans I know agree that the Super Bowl is usually the worst game of the year. I think that people have a lot of parties then because the game is often not worth watching. Some people watch it to see the commercials! And EVERYONE I know seems to hate the hype surrounding what is usually a mis-match.

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Date: Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 15:02:46 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Women authors
Message:
Re: 'All' of us - yes, I see what you mean!

My two favourite women authors are Ursula Leguin and Doris Lessing! Their science fiction is really special (Left Hand of Darkness, The Dosadi Experiment, and Lessing's Shikasta series). I've enjoyed Atwood, but not as much, and I need to read more Alice Munro, and I haven't gotten into Gallant(!!). Any recommendations? Maeve Binchy is quite interesting - have you read her at all? Great short stories. Most of my reading these days is not in the area of novels.

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Date: Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 15:32:57 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: M M M Maeve...
Message:
Well I tried...because Patty like it, but The Glass Lake just about killed me. Never did finish it. Patty told me how it ended. Jeez what a dopey book.

And Doris Lessing, another one of Patty's favorites, well sorry, can't do that one either. Though her Summer Before the Dark (or something like that) was ok in that she cracked up and that was kinda entertaining...

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Date: Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 15:31:32 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Women authors
Message:
Hi Stonor -
Ursula LeGuin is my IDOL. I have read everything she has written, except her poetry, but including her non-fiction essays. The Left Hand of Darkness is a wonderful book - also check out 'The Disposessed' (sp) if you have not read it yet - it is her version of an anarchian utopia. Also, 'Four Ways to Forgiveness' - four novellas. I can't read Lessing for some reason: she and I don't seem to click. I still would like to be able to get through 'The Golden Notebook' someday, but haven't been able to. For science fiction, I also like Sherri Tepper - 'The Gate to Women's Country', and Joanna Russ (short stories with a feminist slant).

Mavis Gallant writes short stories - a lot of which are published in the New Yorker. Can't come up with any titles off the top of my head. Alice Munro also writes mostly short stories - I like the collection 'Friend of My Youth' and her latest 'The Love of a Good Woman' (National Book Award winner).

I like Atwood's short stories, but her novels are great, particularly 'The Handmaid's Tale' (which you probably have read), and 'Cat's Eye'. Some of her books are better than others...I couldn't get into her latest one at all.

I have read Maeve Binchy and think her short stories are *much* better than her novels (her novels tend to be what my mom calls 'pot-boilers', IMHO). Another book of short stories you might like is 'Ship Fever' by Andrea Barrett. The title story (really a novella) takes place in Quebec - it's about the emigration of the Irish to Canada during the potato famine.

Well, I'll stop now! You caught me on one of my favorite subjects - can you tell...

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 04:57:04 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: LeGuinn/M
Message:
M talked about 'the Wizard of Earthsea' once. I managed not to let him ruin it for me. I like her writing a lot, altho like Vonnegut, once I had read a lot of it I've had trouble motivating myself into a new book.

I like Rice but have read a smudgeon (speaking of women authors). Joyce Carol Oates looks interesting but never seem to dive in.

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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 11:15:22 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: LeGuinn/M
Message:
Hi Run -
'Wizard of Earthsea' is the first book in LeGuin's trilogy for young adults. (Personally, I cannot imagine Maharaji reading some of her other books - she has some revolutionary ideas!) I do like the Earthsea trilogy, but really recommend the books I mentioned to Stonor.

I can't really read Anne Rice - I think I've only gotten through one book of hers, and that was because of the New Orleans setting (The Witching Hour), but it does figure that you would like her! Goes with the horror movie theme.

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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 21:42:41 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Katie/Run
Subject: more women authors
Message:
When I was working as a doula, one of my clients was reading 'Interview with the Vampire' while breast feeding her newborn--too funny. It gave me nightmares! Marrion Zimmer Bradley is good too--her book 'The Mists of Avalon' i loved. And of course, Rumer Godden, Edith Wharton, and Willa Cather are great. Barbara Kingsolver too--'Animal Dreams' and 'The Poisonwood Bible' were terrific, IMO. One more--Olivia Manning wrote a great trilogy, 'The Balkan Trilogy', she is a wonderful writer. oops, just one more--Sigrid Unsed--Her trilogy about 13th century Norway won the Pulitzer Prize--'Kristin Lavransadatter'--great books. There are so many good books, so little time.

Reading Octavia Butler now--a black science fiction writer and a woman. a time travel theme--book is called 'Kindred' and the protagonist time travels.

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Date: Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 16:49:36 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Women authors
Message:
Well she's not Canadian, but have you read anything by Leslie Marmon Silko? Her novel, 'Ceremony', is one of my favourites.
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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 11:09:24 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: Women authors
Message:
Hi Daneane -
I have read 'Ceremony' but couldn't really get into it at the time - I want to read it again. As Selene said, my favorite book by Silko is 'Almanac of the Dead'. It is really long, very complicated, and it is a dark book (like the woman in the store said), but it's great.

My favorite native american female author is Louise Erdrich - the four linked books that begin with 'Love Medicine' are wonderful. I think 'Love Medicine' is the best, though - I recommend it highly.

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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 13:06:51 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Women authors
Message:
I liked Almanac of the Dead very much as well...Ceremony remains my favourite...though there is something to be said for her essay about the rocks around her house. I've read Love Medicine. I barely remember it...maybe I should pick it up again. You ever read Yellow Raft in Blue River? I've been meaning to read that for sooo long. What I liked best about Ceremony is the way Tao's perceptions on reality were so not static...that book really impressed me.
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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 11:32:28 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: Women authors
Message:
Hi Daneane -
Yellow Raft in Blue Water is great, and the sequel, Cloud Chamber, is pretty good too. I really like Michael Dorris's non-fiction - particularly The Broken Cord, which is about a child he adopted that had fetal alcohol syndrome. Dorris and Erdrich write very similarly - I think they worked together on their books. (I was very upset when he killed himself.)

I will read Ceremony again - thanks for the reminder!

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Date: Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 20:01:04 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: Women authors
Message:
She's reading one right now! Not for the light of heart.
Huh Katie?
I call it the real tourists guide to Tucson.
Katie did I ever tell you about going into the used book store here and asking the new agey hippy dippy boomer lady for 'Almanac of the Dead'?
She looked at me very seriously and said
'Do you realize that is a VERY VERY dark book'?
I just about died laughing.
OK and a happy Easter everyone. Remember, god was born again today.
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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 11:11:57 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: very very dark?
Message:
Ha ha! I can't believe that woman said that, or rather I CAN. Did she tell you it had bad vibes, too? It IS a really dark book - sometimes shockingly so - but not in the way she meant IMHO.
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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 14:39:25 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: very very dark?
Message:
Yeah well consider the source. Katie check out AG. Rob just cracked me up so bad I can't stand it. We were arguing and he told me to 'go cowtipping'. I'm still laughing. I swear. Cowtipping. Fucking Arizona.
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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 11:33:55 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: very very dark?
Message:
Selene -
You probably aren't here, but I just want to tell you that they actually DO cow-tipping here. Guess y'all have better night life in Tucson - snicker.

Take care -
Love,
Katie

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Date: Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 20:11:42 (GMT)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Women authors
Message:
selene, i'm writing this from a mmachine in mmy fitness clubbji'm tripping cuz it'd hhard to jog nz ype t the mme ttime. iguess i need to tie id into m ssomehow... m is a fraud.
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Date: Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 21:02:17 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: you'd better id yourself
Message:
I'm such an asshole sometimes. get back to your exercise.
mmmutiprocessing and m m m mmutipersonalities.
mmmmmmmmm was soooooooooooo good for us. I have an internet
hangover. I really need a break. I need help. How the hell do people take a break when they work on the net? I really need to know this.
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Date: Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 02:47:12 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: A swig of Canadian Culture for the deprived
Message:
A lot of this is funny but I can't imagine anyone but Canuks getting it. The ad is funny too -- funny in that you know half the viewers will take it seriously, the other see it as a big send up of Canadian self-consciousness. It works on both levels.

My email's been:

heller@bc1.com

for a while now.

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Date: Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 14:12:25 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: A swig of Canadian Culture for the deprived
Message:
I only caught Don Cherry's commentary at the end last night's (yes, it is still Hockey Night in Canada on CBC!), and it was torturous combination watching him and those ads, which (of course) did not include the one I wanted to see. Don't know if I can make the effort again. I really don't like much TV, and without cable (PBS+), I use it mostly for working out with my ancient tapings of an exercise program.

Thanks for the e-mail address Jim!

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Date: Sat, Apr 22, 2000 at 23:14:41 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Coltrane Church? (ot) to Scott and whomever
Message:
I was a little concerned about Scott T.'s understanding that Coltrane had a hand in starting a Christian church (which is a denomination) in the Haight in S.F.

The church went through several incarnations and became the Church of Coltrane in the 80's. The pastor was ordained through the African Orthodox Church.

Coltrane died in 1967, at least one decade before the church came into existence.

He claimed some kind of spiritual experience in 1957 and released 'A Love Supreme' in '64. It's not a vocal album but cutting edge jazz that most players still can't match for virtuosity. The church is responding to his spirituality but he didn't instigate it in any way.

As a musician, he was an introvert who practiced constantly This wouldn't fit a proselyte, much less a self-proclaimed prophet.

Coltrane is a great 'stop' to make whether or not you're into the spiritual stuff.

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Date: Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 08:02:30 (GMT)
From: Peter Howie
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Coltrane Church? (ot) to Scott and whomever
Message:
I ran into this mob, at the airport, on the way back to Australia many years back. Probably around 1980ish.

I was quite confronted by how they had projected into a deceased person (Coltrane) a 'divine' ability and that his music was inspired from God etc. Thus the reason for setting up a church.

The confrontation for me was their passion and their belief and the quirkiness or wierdness of where the passion originated. Since at the time I was a well devoted ashram premie I scoffed at their naivete and the human condition that leads people to make up such silly ideas - it made a great satsang story.

Nevertheless I remember aspects of the meeting clearly - and I guess I saw aspects of myself in their struggle - despite being able to take a one-up position at the time. Another difference was that they were doing something for people in a real way - the church was helping 'down and out' people.

Cheers

Peter

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Date: Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 09:03:43 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Peter Howie
Subject: Coltrane
Message:
My main point is Coltrane didn't do anything to create a church, although he did claim to have had a spiritual awakening. I think Coltrane was a significant contributor in human affairs, a stop well worth making. I don't think spirituality is a necessity in relating to his music, although he saw his music as having a spiritual content (at least after '64).

I don't have much of an opinion about the church, but I do think Coltrane is someone everyone can benefit from checking out. I can understand to some extent, how someone could want to start a church around him, but I'm not sure it's a good thing.

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Date: Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 14:20:19 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Coltrane
Message:
Run:

Point taken about Coltrane's involvement. What about his daughter though? She's also a musician of some renown and I got the impression she was involved in some way in the religion.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 02:04:45 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: SCOTT--lost your em address, can you em me....
Message:
ASAP???? HelenRDC@aol.com
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Date: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 02:26:23 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Scott
Subject: Never mind, found it and just em'd ya (nt)
Message:
ghjshgljhglfs
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Date: Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 14:38:54 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Coltrane
Message:
His daughter is a high priestess or something in the church. She has a major involvement. I don't know much about the religion, although the church does good things in the community, in a very understated way.

I heard a report in the past few days that the church has become yet another victim of the astronomical real estate market in San Francisco, and has to move, although I didn't catch exactly where, probably Oakland.

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Date: Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 18:23:19 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Alice Coltrane?
Message:
I heard the church had to move due to finances too.

I've never heard of the daughter. Do you mean Alice Coltrane(?), his wife and also the pianist at the end of his career. His music developed into something less and less conventional, so in spite of the importance of McCoy Tyner (the earlier pianist), Alice carried the weight as the band grew more esoteric ('Live in Japan', for example). She recorded a couple of albums after his death and was teaching music in California. She was a little more external with her spirituality but I haven't heard of her in the church (but didn't do a search to see what else I might find).

BTW, I don't mean to knock the church. Their history is as an African oriented Christian denomination. However, I'm just interested in acknowledging Coltrane's importance. Our intellectual development isn't limited to scientific or philosophical study.

At the risk of unnecessarily engaging in argument, I think Miles gets a lot of credit that Coltrane deserves (and Coltrane plays on the groundbreaking 'Kinda Blue' and other Miles albums from that period). The music is so intense, especially from 'A Love Supreme' and beyond, although for people who find that too intense, 'My Favorite Things' is worth checking out.

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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 16:20:09 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Coltraine Church
Message:
According to local news reports, the church held it's last service in its location in the Haight, and had an overflow (highly diverse) crowd. They are moving to the Bayview District of San Francisco. In San Francisco, the church is kind of like Glide Memorial. It draws people from all over for the services, partly because they had choirs, great musicians, etc.
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Date: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 05:41:19 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Coltrane
Message:
I wonder how it compares to the real thing (i.e. Coltrane) - or in this case the recordings of the real thing. The stuff I heard on the radio didn't compare although it was nice.

But that's passing judgement- I dunno.

I'm just pushing Coltrane as being something worth checking out- probably 'A Love Supreme' is the place to start.

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Date: Sat, Apr 22, 2000 at 18:23:43 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Really, I ask you, is this healthy?
Message:
I wonder if this is a good thing, torquing oneself up in religious fervour. If she were a Catholic, dear Astrid would be a stigmatic, I just know it. It's funny but the more one climbs this real 'Mount Improbable', the notion that Maharaji's actually the Lord of the Universe and not just its most cherished Speaker, the more can't bear the truth. Does Astrid know about Maharaji's real life at all? I kind of doubt it. It'd be like asking a ten year-old Star Wars fan (back then, of course) what they know about the off-screen life of Mark Hammill (Luke Skywalker). Nothing and that's the way they like it.

Astrid Tholens:

The day after
From Leichardt, Australia

It is the day after the event with Maharaji. I can't describe the feelings that stir in me. So deep, like a vortex that is too deep for me. Can hardly catch my breath in this great ocean. Slowly, take each moment, and breathe deeply. Slowly, I enter my house and become familiar with my surroundings. Slowly, go to sleep, only to awaken the next morning in a deep dream.

There is nothing I can touch for a moment until this cloud of longing leaves me free. Such a longing for my home, my love, my source. To re-find it within. To be so consumed for a moment with looking outside and finding that brilliance, that gentleness and strength. Everything seems estranged from me, as if I've travelled a long journey.

Now you've gone again, and I'm left with Knowledge. With gratitude I practice this Knowledge. Where else could I go? In thankfulness I drink from this new cup, and watch each drop as it trickles drop by drop into my cup.

I'm learning patience. I've travelled a lifetime there and back. By writing I feel this cloud of longing ease in my heart, and can breathe more freely. You've taken me to the highest peak. I've watched the valleys bloom beneath my feet. I'll tell others about this land of JOY... and wait for our next meeting in silent prayer.

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Date: Sat, Apr 22, 2000 at 18:28:13 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: And how about this?
Message:
It's always the same three harpies swinging the arti tray over on ELK these days. You've got Astrid, Janice and Ivette, each apparently trying to constantly outsap the others. But what about the rest of the cult? How many lap up this weenie gopi shit and how many simply cringe and smirk knowlingly to each other?:

Janice Wilson:

Living room
From Baldwinsville, New York

This morning I heard Maharaji
singing in my living room via video
Daya was also singing
and 80,000 other people
and so was my heart !
What a living room :)
Later in the day I am expecting
some people for a video event
What a living room :)
Now this is living
Living with the heart
Thank you, Maharaji
for making it possible for me
Me to be free
In love with my heart
this Knowledge and you!

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Date: Sat, Apr 22, 2000 at 18:32:54 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yes, Ivette, the 'synchronism' is incredible
Message:
Here's the other ol' faithful. Is there any way to get their servers to block them? They're ruining my weekened. There ought to be a law or something. These women just keep posting this shit which absolutely offends my sensibilities. Don't I have rights too? How can I enjoy the quiet peacitude of my own synchronism when so-called 'people' are allowed to post so-called 'expresions' like this?:

Ivete Belfort Mattos:

The evolution of enjoying

From Sao Paolo, Brazil

A few years ago, the best way to find out about an event was to wait for a video. Now, all you have to do is check the web to read how volunteers describe the events for people who were not there. I find the synchronism is incredible.

At the same time that this last Amaroo event was happening, I was in Brazil at a participation meeting and then watching a video of an earlier Amaroo event.

Now, I have this great opportunity to be connected and be informed. And, of course I continue to practice Knowledge with a lot of inspiration.

I thank you all!

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Date: Sat, Apr 22, 2000 at 21:26:08 (GMT)
From: premie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yes, Ivette, the 'synchronism' is incredible
Message:
It's always the same three harpies swinging the arti tray over on ELK these days. You've got Astrid, Janice and Ivette, each apparently trying to constantly outsap the others. But what about the rest of the cult? How many lap up this weenie gopi shit and how many simply cringe and smirk knowlingly to each other?:

Cult or no cult....we cringe.

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Date: Sat, Apr 22, 2000 at 18:36:06 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Heaven, hell and madness in Makati City
Message:
Sorry, I forgot the other stalwart gopi goons, Karen and Nina. How'd you like to spend an afternoon with these five women?:

Karen Plaxton and Nina Shakespeare:

Mad days without Knowledge

Newly moved from Singapore to Manila in the Philippines

We are finally hooked up on line, and wandering around our huge house here in our secluded enclave. Days without Knowledge... by now we would have expired with the madness of it all, but for days with Knowledge. Ahhh! perfect peace snatched in moments of utter noise, activity and bedlam! As we sit for a few precious moments in half empty rooms, that echo with our footsteps and find a spare chair with nothing on it, we stop unpacking boxes of 'things' and start to appreciate how lucky we are. How that one breath still comes and goes, in our mad times, in our happy times...in quiet and noise...Without this gift, without this love, without this Knowledge in our lives, where would we go. Leaving that sanctuary, would be hell. Heaven is definitely here on earth...and at this moment in time, for us at least, it resides in Makati City as we wait to see our master once more.

I know it is not original, but once again dear Maharaji, THANK YOU from the bottom of our thirsty hearts.

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Date: Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 15:39:23 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The Philippines ARE heaven.....
Message:
Just ask any sailor..... they'll tell you! :-)
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Date: Sat, Apr 22, 2000 at 20:52:04 (GMT)
From: trixie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: oh help
Message:
Well things have moved along since the old days. This is the first stuff I have read in a long long time.
These women are flouting the disconnectedness that the scene creates.
This is really sick.
It sounds like the entrapement - and life size dysfunction is part of the attraction.
No it is not healthy- decidedly unhealthy. This is why therapists are so busy.
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Date: Sat, Apr 22, 2000 at 16:45:09 (GMT)
From: Dan Rather
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: important news update rom Rennie...
Message:
Rennie Davis, Nov. 1973, Houston...
'I think that growing your hair long and seeking personal salvation come out of the same stem, from the same freedom...'

Thanks Rennie,it was getting a little long around the ears, but I feel better already...

(I know, this is old stuff, but I get a kick out of some of it ....)

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Date: Sat, Apr 22, 2000 at 16:50:03 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Dan Rather
Subject: Yeah, it's funny as sin
Message:
I love this shit too. You know, I never had a chance to be in a Kurt Vonnegut novel when I was a kid so this kind of makes up for it.
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Date: Sat, Apr 22, 2000 at 16:31:20 (GMT)
From: Dan Rather
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Come again, Rennie?
Message:
Ok,so maybe I'm not THAT Dan Rather, but I recently came across some old DT's(Divine Times) which are actually giving me a case of the DT's, mixed with a little, no a lot of bellylaughs, as well as a slightly queasy feeling in my stomach...Did we really believe the stuff we talked about?Anyway, catch a litle bit of the Rennie Davis interview with Paul Krassner at the Astrodome in Nov. 1973, at the 'Most holy and (in)signifigant event in the history of humanity'.

Ken(moderator):Did Guru Maharaji give Richard Nixon a political contribution?
Rennie:The answer is yes, he gave Richard Nixon his life. I can really dig what you're saying.......
(talking about premies and knowledge)....
'look at how neat and clean the kids are. And they just walk arund all day long blissed out. Far out, surely this is a good thing.And you may be right. It's just that this happens to be the most serious revolution ever to take place in the history of the whole world. Because it happens to be a revolution that will affect the whole planet, and I think, rather, affect the whole relationship of this planet to the whole universe.And it will bring about a revolutionary change in the human species itself as well as in all society. Every government that is now based on ego and pride and arrogance is in big trouble. Every instituion that is based on ego is in big trouble. Every individual that is based fundamentally in his own ego is in trouble. So in that sense, why challenge the ego, why challenge the mind?In fact, it's going to overtake ego and mind on a world scale within the next 20 years.'

So what's Rennie up to these days?

BTW, I've got more of these gems from some old DT's...
Anybody got a use for them?
Later,
Dan(got to go do 48 hours..)

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Date: Sat, Apr 22, 2000 at 23:36:39 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Dan Rather
Subject: Pie in this guy
Message:
Don't know what Rennie is up to nowadays, but I do know he almost shared a similar fate to maharaji back in 1973:

Extract from http://www.chumba.com/_blah.htm


The recent actions by the BBB (Biotic Baking Brigade) were in part a celebration of the 21st anniversary of International Pie Week, founded by the American Pieman, Aron Kay. Kay, based in New York, is the one of the mentors of today’s activists. He threw his first pie in 1973 - it was cherry and it missed its target - who was Rennie Davis, ex-Yippie and war protester turned devotee of an Indian guru. After a few years of renting himself out as a pie thrower, Kay returned to politically-motivated pie throwing in 1976

Wonder what he charges?

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Date: Sat, Apr 22, 2000 at 02:49:58 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Pretty sounding parrot
Message:
It's funny reading Indian premies' testimonials. They have turn such quaint and delightful phrases. There is nothing modern, let alone 'post-modern' about their 'Expressions'. It's all proper, confident and appropriately dignified. If one didn't know better, one might almost think they knew of what they speak.

But then you look a little closer. Now, tell me, when this oh-so-wholesome premie talks about 'participation' do you think for a moment he means anything? Anything at all? See, I don't. I think that word's a nervous twitch in the cult jargon, a mere place-filler, utterly empty and meaningless. I hate that.

Another thing that bugs me -- how could an Indian premie who'd been around since the sixties follow either Rawat brother without intellectually coming to terms with the other's existence? I get the strong sense that this guy's done nothing but avoid the issue for twenty-five years. You know, here in the west we've got premies and ex-premies. But in India there are three relevant groups: Prempal premies, Satpal premies and, of course, good ol' exes. God, there must have been a few interesting conversations there in all this time!:

Murari Lal

My heart dances

Sixty year old Murari, a retired headteacher from Mahendragarh in Haryana State writes of the awareness that Knowledge has given him.

About 33 years ago I remember I was discussing God, soul and supreme soul with a friend. He was a very simple uneducated person, but his understanding about these things impressed me greatly. I liked it very much. When I questioned him about the mystery of his wisdom, he told me that the practice of Knowledge had revealed this to him. He was a disciple of Shri Hans Ji Maharaj (Maharaji's father) who had shown him the path to self-realization. Every day he practised the techniques that his master had given him.

He said, 'By this practise, I understand these things quite simply, because I know. I experience bliss. It helps me to bear up my worldly problems. If you too want this supreme process come with me to his discourse and request him. And you too can be blessed. If he finds you worthy he will bestow the Knowledge upon you also.'

I was excited and began to look forward to the event when I would meet him. After some time my friend told me that Sri Hans Ji Maharaji had passed away and now his son Shri Sant Ji Maharaj would give Knowledge. Because I was keenly interested in acquiring Knowledge, I told him that I was ready.

Then I came to know that in April of 1967, in Moradabad, a three-day event was going to take place. And Shri Sant Ji Maharaj would be there. I went with my friend, and attended Maharaji's discourse. I was convinced and an inexplicable joy rose within my heart.

At that event I received the techniques of Knowledge. I was told to practise it for one hour every morning and evening. During the Knowledge session my heart was filled with joy, and began to dance. On the spot I made a resolution to practise every day.

I had heard about the soul and the supreme soul. But what it was, where it resided, how to know it, why to know it, was unknown to me. Now I am able to experience the supreme bliss within my heart, whenever I want to, wherever I want to, and as long as I want to. Then my heart dances. Now I don't need to wander in search. I have reached home.

Now I realise that my body is a machine, a vehicle, and the operator of this machine, my real self, is more important than this vehicle. Now not only do I give this body food, and clothes, but also participation, 'satsang' and practise of Knowledge, I tell myself, that if I miss a meal it doesn't matter, but I must not miss 'satsang', participation and practice, I have begun to love and respect everyone and every creature. All this is due to my master's guidance.

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Date: Sat, Apr 22, 2000 at 02:28:46 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Just how personal was it anyway?
Message:
Up close and personal

I have just come from watching Maharaji on the TV in my living room as it was broadcast. So inspiring, so beautiful, so clear.

Anyone thinking about getting a satellite system get on and do it! It is so close, so personal.

Don Edwards
Leicester, UK


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Date: Sat, Apr 22, 2000 at 20:05:42 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Up close and personal?
Message:
So this, so that, and so so.

It's strange how years ago when Prem wanted premies to travel to see him so much, he would talk about how videos are not at all a substitute for seeing him live. Now this switch. Now videos and pre-recorded broadcasts are SO close, SO personal, SO intimate. Like tele-darshan or something. Maybe 'His grace' goes into the video and then travels through the wires? ???

I remember the first broadcast, which was live. There was a psychological feeling of it being 'live'. It now seems like a bait-and-switch. Now premies are paying significantly more than were before to see videos - in the form of pre-recorded broadcasts.

'People with Knowledge' have short memories, or more likely repressed memories.

So a video of a stranger thousands of miles away talking in the past is up close and personal. Or could it be premies, that whatever you are feeling is simply in you, caused by you, and has nothing to do with him? That you have been led to believe that you need to use all this as a trigger? Whatever happened to 'it is within'? Remember the musk deer story?

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Date: Sat, Apr 22, 2000 at 02:46:04 (GMT)
From: MTV
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Movie star
Message:
Lemme see...how many other of 'dem mooooovie stars am I on a personal level with?? Well, President Clinton was looking right at me through the TV when he spoke, I felt really close to him.

And I just know Jay, you know last night, said that last joke just for me. I felt sooooo close to him...I don't why he doesn't answer my letters.

For awhile, I thought maybe he'd forgotten about his special little fan...but once I re-arranged my room and bought a bigger TV....we became as close as ever!!!

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Date: Sat, Apr 22, 2000 at 09:44:21 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: MTV
Subject: Movie star
Message:
' Hey Marolyn babe, if that Danny de Vito can be one why not me?

Call that little shit Yoram and arrange the finance, NOW !'

Hal the eavesdropper

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Date: Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 16:54:46 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The Yellow Brick Road
Message:
Hey, I'll give myself the litalics this time! Why not? I'm good enough in every way. People like me. I feel good about myself. Alright!

So I'm reading this insightful 'report' from this premie here and I'm remembering how exciting it was at times leaving everything behind to go suck Maharaji's figurative dick, or have him suck mine, in exotic places like Malaga (the bullring!), the small, intimate Holi program in Miami in '75, (wich we weren't really invited to and thus got in trouble for going to but, oh the bliss anyway!) and maybe a few other places. None could miss the obvious metaphor of 'leaving the world and all its troubles behind'. We were rendezvousing with the Magician of all magicians. The more irrational it seemed, the expense, abandoning our jobs, the moment's notice things ..... the greater the 'love story'.

For a few days, or at least hours, we seemed like cosmic travellers again. All our fellow community premies we'd come to take for granted -- or worse -- over the past many months, since the last great 'event', looked noble and meaningful again. (Well, some of them anyway.) It was just so exotic and exciting to see the world like this, under the wing of the Master of Love. What a farce, huh?:

Report from Steve Hammersley, UK

Well here I am in Australia again. Events over the last few days have run something like this.

Friday 14th April 12.00am Got up, read First Class e-mail. Message in the Australian conference about an event at Amaroo. Didn't take much notice of it as I thought it was the Satellite broadcast. Read the e-mail again. Maharaji has accepted an invitation to attend an open air event at Amaroo. Event starts 4.00pm Sunday 16th April. Registration starts 1.00pm. 'Bastard, bastard, bastard, bastard.' Was my initial response.

Steve: 'Juli, while I am in the shower, check and see if there is any way of getting there'.

Juli (after my shower): 'We are booked on a flight leaving tonight at 10.00pm arriving Sunday morning 5.00am'

Steve: 'Well let's just think about this. Are we being responsible and sensible?'

Steve/Juli: 'NO'

Steve: 'Ok that's that sorted, let's go.'

Steve: 'Hello John (Carpenter) what are you doing this weekend?

John: 'A few things, why?'

Steve 'Well we are going to Amaroo, are you coming?'

John: 'But what about the flight and the visa?'

Steve: 'It's all provisionally booked, just call this number before 5.00pm'

John: 'See you at the airport'

Flight to Singapore. Sleep, sleep, sleep, sleep.
Arrive Singapore. Smoke, smoke, smoke, smoke.
Flight to Brisbane. Sleep, sleep, sleep, sleep.
Arrive Brisbane 5.00am Sunday 16th April

Customs: 'You are on holiday to Australia for how long?

Steve: 'Four days.'

Customs: 'OK sonny come out here and we will search your bags for drugs'

Steve: 'Fine by me.'

Through customs, hire a car at the airport. We drove to Ipswich and found a really great motel. Booked in and had mega carnivore's breakfast. Showered, practised, smoked and smoked some more.

12.00 Midday. Too excited to wait anymore. Come on Juli, come on John, let's go. Lots of whooping and jumping up and down. And so one of my favourite drives, towards Journey's End – up Mount Flinders Road and into the gate. Directed to parking area where the hellos begin. Lorraine Chamberlain directing traffic. Trevor Starke (my old manager) parking cars. For me I'm just bursting, overjoyed at being here and the chance to see Maharaji. I'm amazed at how many people I know. I seem to know all the Oz premies. Lots of amazed hellos and hugs etc.

People seem amazed we made it. I just say 'Yes they're writing a whole new chapter in the Bible about us.' I don't feel amazing about the journey. What else was I supposed to do when I found out? Something to do with 'Thirst and Water' sums it up.

Anyway, registration is simple. The event is set up in a very simple way to happen on Campground A. This is the area near catering and the place I used to live when I was at Amaroo last year. The stage is very simple. The wicker chair and a large sun umbrella. The sun umbrella is removed as it gets a little cloudy and breezy.

We can take a seat on the grass at 3.00pm. Nice spot about 4 rows back in the middle, but wherever you are it's close. I guess about 500 people (actually 1100 - ed). I am keeping active so that I don't relax and get sleepy. At about 4.00pm he drives up in the Silver Range Rover and gets out. He walks up on stage and sits down.

There's something about Maharaji in open air events. He is framed by a tree blowing in the breeze. He is wearing casual greeny khaki shirt and trousers and looking as beautiful, beautiful as Maharaji can. He speaks and my world stands still. I am not going to repeat anything he said. I don't want to ruin the joy of hearing it for yourself. He is looking well and enjoying himself.

At the end he gets back in the car and drives slowly off. The sun is setting in a crimson sky and the moon is rising over the rocks. God I've missed this place. Journeys End.


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Date: Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 20:06:30 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Smoke, smoke, smoke???
Message:
I always find that doing lots of dope in Singapore and after breakfast, prepares me to no end, to be with the master. It also turns me into a mega carnivore. It also makes me feel vaguely sexual towards round, fat, greasy Indian guys. I sit dreamily, fantasizing about Maharaji removing his casual khaki shirt and trousers. What kind of exotic underwear does he wear? One can only imagine, but I am sure it is beautiful.

But hey, that's me. And now I am part of this club. I know everyone and everyone knows me, even in Australia. I belong, and I make valiant sacrifices to be with the living lord, which will make me even more popular and adulated in this club. I am somebody. These sacrifices will be rewarded, but I will always act as though I expect nothing. I am also superior to most members of the club. I can afford to fly to Australia on a moment's notice. How many premies can do that? Moreover, now I can write on the internet so everyone knows, and can feel envious of me. God, I love this club.

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Date: Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 19:37:33 (GMT)
From: Trade it for a Lexus
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: waiting for my man
Message:
I found it worked, the drugs that is. Got hooked nine years ago during a twenty year spell of psychosis due to misuse of my mental faculties from following Maharaji. used to tear everything to bits too. all that was left eventually was me, and I have been cured for years now and the daily abuse of drugs is part of my life now. sorry if this disappoints anyone.
it makes me happy. I suppose everybody finds themselves one way or another eventually. knock it, tear it down, there is only your own reality, as part of teaming life. That's truelly something.

The transition away from Maharaji to full blown drug addiction was fairly simple. There are so many similarities like abandoning all reasonable, rational, and responsible thinking in order to get another fix.

I find that drug addiction is actually easier than following Maharaji. I know what to expect as there are no great mysteries. I'm more satisfied. And I have more money.

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Date: Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 17:28:15 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: All night long, Master!
Message:
My last devotional houla with Rawat was 1996 Long Beach. We were singing and adoring. Our attention switched from the tiny figure on stage to the large smiling face on the screen above. Maharaji mentioned something about going all night long, to a blissful applause. But then he said, 'Naw, I don't think so. Afterall, we're not having sex here!' That brought an even bigger applause. But it made me think 'what ARE we doing here?'

I noticed that Hansi was in the front row with his mother and sisters. During that three day event, everytime the family had walked in, Hansi seemed to be slumping with embarassment, (just my impression). What is it like seeing your Dad up there conducting some sort of divine orgy?

Mr. Hammersley seems all agog about Rawat in the open air, sans suit. He particular seems to like the casual look 'casual greeny khaki shirt...looking beautiful beautiful...' This effeminization of the master by the straight male devotees always perplexed me. I think next time Rawat should come out in leather and a whip.

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Date: Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 19:23:19 (GMT)
From: Jimmy Fitz
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Tangent: The Hansi mystery
Message:
I noticed that Hansi was in the front row with his mother and sisters. During that three day event, everytime the family had walked in, Hansi seemed to be slumping with embarrassment, (just my impression). What is it like seeing your Dad up there conducting some sort of divine orgy?

I, too, was at that Long Beach event. Yes, Hansi was there and if I recall correctly it was his first public appearance in many years. I really don't have any information about his whereabouts in the previous years, but there was always a candle left burning in the window and a seat left for him in the front row which was noticeably vacant.

Where was Hansi?

Was he keeping his distance?
Was there a falling out between him and his LOTU father?
Was he backstage helping Raja Ji manage the WPC?
Was Hansi giving knowledge reviews to a select group of gopis?
Was Hansi away at school?

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Date: Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 19:37:57 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Jimmy Fitz
Subject: Re:Tangent: The Hansi mystery
Message:
JF,

I can't clear up much of the Hansi mystique. But I think I know what he was thinking at that program during the devotional singing. One of two things:

'Cool, Man, someday that's gonna be me up there.'

or

'Thank God my surfer friends aren't here!'

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Date: Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 18:29:43 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Very funny, Way
Message:
Very, very funny. 'What ARE we doing here?' I like that.
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Date: Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 20:15:57 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yellow brick road all the way to the bank...
Message:
OK, Multiplying the stated attendence in Amaroo, 1100, at $45 a person this would bring in nearly $50,000 in income for Maharaji. Not a bad afternoons's take, get in a little flight time in the jet, write off all expenses, pick up an extra 50K to keep things rollin' at home. Yeah, great day. Life IS blissful... Blessing to all my premies, er, students, jai, er, the Speaker must now fly back to LA and helicopter into his private helioport which his neighbors hate but he loves because he's such an ostentatious and spoiled little fucker, and, and , (pant)...where was I? Where am I?
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Date: Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 20:26:05 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: and some more profits for the fake prophet...
Message:
And don't forget the $25+ charge for the upcoming broadcast of his 'surprise visit' to Amaroo. He will probably make even more money from that.
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Date: Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 21:00:27 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Wots..uh the deal?
Message:
I was looking at the sign-up paperwork for the events. It says:
'The reservation fee covers less than 30% of the event costs. Additional contributions are needed and greatly appreciated. Contributions to support these events as well as upcoming knowledge sessions can be included with your seating reservation form and can also be made at the event.'

Reservation fee is $30.00 per seat.

So how much dough will permies put up?

Will they pay again at the door?

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Date: Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 21:49:05 (GMT)
From: A.P.
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: Wots..uh the deal?
Message:
Believe it or not they actually have credit card machines to take donations. Pretty sick huh. The cost of the event in Miami is $45.oo. Lets see how many people pay it.
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Date: Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 15:49:15 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Mike Dettmers
Subject: Two essay questions for Dettmers...
Message:
Please explain your involvement in this 'Swiss-based foundation' worth ONE HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS in 1982. Was this connected with Maharaji? Whose money was it? Where did this money come from? Where is this money now?

You say you have a Masters degree from Kennedy-Western University. This establishment is looked upon as a 'diploma mill' by some. Do you consider this a legitimate degree? Would another university, say Stanford, recognize your degree if you wanted to work on your doctorate there?

Please answer in three hundred words or less... :)

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Date: Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 15:44:40 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: Charlie's Journey
Message:
Charlie's Journey is now online to read. Thanks, Charlie :)
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Date: Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 14:28:32 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Charlie
Subject: Thank you, Charlie
Message:
Very honest, moving and well-written - I had a lot of the same experiences you had.

The best to you and Lee.

Love,
Katie

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Date: Sat, Apr 22, 2000 at 20:27:44 (GMT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Congradulations Charlie...(nt)
Message:
fsgh
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Date: Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 19:54:34 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Thank you , Lee......
Message:
I think stories like yours are very helpful to people making the same kind of transition. It's nice to see that something productive can come out of all this.
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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 22:08:01 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: I mean, Charlie (I guess Lee is your wife)(nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 16:17:21 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: For Christ's sake, Charlie, it's 'Mishler' ....
Message:
Sheesh!

Charlie,

I can just imagine the apprehension you must have felt after you broke through when you were waiting to see if Lee would turn. I know a number of people weren't so lucky.

Thanks for telling your story so well. It really takes me back, absolutely. Thanks again.

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Date: Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 17:03:55 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Charlie
Subject: Required reading for aspirants! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Apr 22, 2000 at 14:51:05 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Charlie
Subject: Thanks
Message:
Your journey story ripped my heart out, thanks for writing it so honestly. I can really identify with the looooong wait to receive knowledge (my wait was 2 years as well) and with people telling you your mind is too strong, and all the other garbage-sheesh, it's like a 10 ton weight off of one's shoulders, isn't it? I also can identify with your turning to knowledge out of a need for something that you didn't get in your family.

I'm glad that you and your wife have been able to support one another and that ultimately you have gotten through to the other side. I know it was painful. I experienced similar reactions when I found ex-premie org., although i was nowhere near as committed a premie as you were. So I can only imagine the depths of confusion you felt. Loved your : 'you can't polish a turd'. After what you went through working your ass off to build stages and then to have to write an IOU at the entrance of the festival, I should say that's a turd that can never be anything but a big stinkin' turd, and no polishing will ever make it otherwise.Fortunately that's all behind you and I wish you, Lee, and your children all the best!!

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Date: Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 12:35:12 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: Loafji@yahoo.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Phone Link Up
Message:
Sorry I missed this - it would have been great fun. If there is any chance of doing another one - we can open the proceedings with the Larkin arti - and then between speakers, Loaf'n'Larkin could entertain with a selection of live devotional broadcasts - 'Its the Great Pakki in the Sky' and other favourites from their latest album - 'Confusion' and 'Fire in my arse'.

Report back if we can join hands across the herring pond.

Elvis has left the building.

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Date: Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 12:02:33 (GMT)
From: infinity trade
Email: infinity_trade@yahoo.com
To: Everyone
Subject: It worked for me I'll be back.
Message:
You know I wrote a large piece in reply to yi all.
You are such an invigerating lot. I sent it but
it has not appeared? I will re-write and re-post.
I tried to discuss all your points. Was it me that
pushed the wrong button? I can but try. 'You have two ears,
listen to both sides of the question.'
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Date: Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 00:49:06 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: infinity trade
Subject: What does 'work' mean?
Message:
If you're thinking that these simple, arguably stupid (squeezing your eyes to see the 'Light of God'?) meditation techniques are anything but a nice, refreshing alternative to the real world, you better have some proof. Just saying they 'work' says nothing.
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Date: Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 08:10:22 (GMT)
From: infinity trade
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What does 'work' mean?
Message:
I take it you are unemployed, sorry my humour. I gave up using my hands years ago. The world outside pours into you all the time. The knowlege is a way of looking into an inner world. In time there is more experience and selfsense gained from looking in. It is a very usefull tool towards self fulfillment. I have found that very much so over 28 years. To just begin, is the excitement of facing a long journey, but you don't have to take a compass, or a dog poo lifting kit if you don't want to. depends how you see it. Relax, don't worry, They say 'If the Mountain won't go to Allah then Allah must go to the Mountain'
What makes you think the Mountain won't come to you. PS I'm only talking proverbally. Take Care, relax,go for living, pack your own backpack.
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Date: Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 16:58:33 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: infinity trade
Subject: Bullshit. 'Journey'? Give me a fucking break
Message:
Yeah, you're going on a 'journey' alright. You're going on a journey just like I did when I read The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. That book sent me off to Aslan and boy was that great!

Real? No, not at all. Who said anything about real? I just said it was fun.

Maharaji's World is as real as Aslan. You read enough mystic poets, squint back to recall some of Maharaji's more titillating spiritual come-ons and away you go. Travelling in your innner lands like Dr. Strange. Playing the techniques like some ancient hindu Etch-a-Sketch.

Here's one for you: when I was talking with Gary Ockendon about all the women Mahatma Tejeshwaranand fucked when he was staying in the Vancouver ashram in '74 -- and not just fucked but fucked and tricked into thinking they were seeing Maharaji everywhere and had thus 'realized the Knowledge'! -- he mentioned a girl Tej had gotten pregnant in Nelson too. (Nelson was a little hippie and artist enclave in interior B.C. which became a Maharaji cult hotspot in '74).

But how could that have been, I asked. Tej was only in Nelson that one night. The night he told the whole fucking valley squeezed into the hall that he was 'with Jesus!', in other wrods that he was, there and then, realizing for the first time that he was actually one of the 12 disciples (oh yeah, Happy Easter). Afterwards, over the course of the night right up until dawn, Tej gave Knowledge to three separate groups of lucky, lucky people. Then he left. So how could he have impregnated anyone?

Gary smiled and told me that at one point Tej asked him to take over. Mahatma Ji wanted to 'take rest' and what'd it matter anyway? They all had their eyes closed as Tej circulated to tenderly squeeze their eyes and thus take their spiritual virginity. So what if Gary did it for him?

Anyways, that's what happened. Gary, who was most certainly not an authorized dealer, 'gave Knowledge' to the lot of them while Mahatma Ji fucked his brains out.

Here's the kicker -- afterwards an extraordinary percentage of spiritual newborns said they saw Maharaji and other great masters in the light during the session. Like more than half, much more than half. There was that much grace.

Process it.

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Date: Sat, Apr 22, 2000 at 23:19:53 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: infinity trade
Subject: It worked for me but (again)
Message:
You didn't write back to me and yes, it's easy to miss the posting links. Here's my stuff again.

It worked for me but it works better when I give credit to where credit is due: myself for meditating or doing whatever it takes to get real.

The problem with Rawatt is all the people who have gotten hurt directly as a result of believing his lies and promises which he couldn't or didn't choose to fulfill.

Meditation can help people and the meditation that Rawatt teaches can be a great tool for some. Believing your inner experience is inextricably tied to another is a dangerous choice which many people have paid dearly for having made (except perhaps directed at a spouse who will personally reciprocate).

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Date: Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 08:21:32 (GMT)
From: infinity trade
Email: infinity_trade@yahoo.com
To: Runamok
Subject: It worked for me but (again)
Message:
If you think your life is inaxricably tied to Maharaji, you have problem's runamock. No wonder you are tugging at the strings all the time. People said Elvis was King. ( Like a real king of a country? How as a popular title? People espescially nutty premis say lots of nutty things about M. Now we have the sayings of nutty anti-premies too. Ha. Lord of the Unverse, and old Hindi equivalent like King Elvis. Be serious if he was he'd fly around on a magic carpet. It a fan's title for him. If they go around thinking that all day they can't be getting on with their lives. And the knowlege is about your self. The one thing is we are all one, made of the material of stars. Hey science says all atoms wre formed in stars. Its a paradox thing. Its nice to feel part of things. But if if you feel tied, hey don't bother your not.
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Date: Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 18:40:49 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: infinity trade
Subject: It worked for me but (again) Pt 2
Message:
OK, M clearly encouraged the kind of reliance I am describing, and if he has changed in the kinds of demands that he places on disciples, it still doesn't change the historical realities of his claims to be God or of Messianic power.

Yes, Guru Maharaj-ji is a title. I'm not an idiot just because I don't agree with you. However, if M was using it in a cultural context he wouldn't have stretched it into a rationale for a Messionic prophecy which he could never fulfill. He can water down his earlier statements, but he can't pretend that he didn't make them (i.e., 'I declare I will establish peace on earth.').

Good for you if you take it all with a grain of salt, but if you really believe what you're saying then what value does the 'master' bring to the knowledge? You don't need him. In fact, you need to outgrow him for realisation. He has no substantial link to your own experience of the knowledge. Are you saying that he does? It is a black and white situation. He either has a direct relation to your experience or he doens't. You can't play it from both ends.

BTW, I really don't 'tug at the strings'. That's past behavior and is what was expected. If you think M didn't enccourage this behavior, you're kidding yourself. I don't read his satsangs (or those on the ELK site). I do like to associate with people who have left him because I have common interests and a sense of community. Maybe you'll find, as I have that the benefits are there without the guru. If M gets slowed down or gets a little tear in his pretty clothes I'm glad, but it's not something that takes up much of my attention.

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Date: Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 18:15:17 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: infinity trade
Subject: Try again.
Message:
Please try again. When I first posted I pushed the wrong buttons. You'll get the hang of it.
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Date: Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 20:56:08 (GMT)
From: infinity trade
Email: infinity_trade@yahoo.com
To: Hal
Subject: Try again.
Message:
Two points:
2.The world ain't all sunrise, there is droppin bombs too.
but do you blame the sunrise for the bombs. Nope we are all
responsible.
3. knowlege is a very personal experience. Kult or anti-kult?
- now that's Group Mentality.
1. Talk only about night and you'lle know only night, ditto for
day. But the world has both.
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Date: Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 22:34:33 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: infinity trade
Subject: Kult?
Message:
You obviously don't see Maharaji as a cult leader. Please answer these questions.

What is Mr Rawat to you?

What is your definition of a cult?

Would you kiss his feet if you had the opportunity?

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Date: Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 22:17:42 (GMT)
From: Angry
Email: None
To: infinity trade
Subject: Try again./Regurgitation
Message:
of your Kult Masturd is of no consequence. I feel as embarassed for you as I do for myself in getting suckered by HIM!!!
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Date: Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 21:02:20 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: infinity trade
Subject: Both
Message:
The world has both.

What side are you arguing again?

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Date: Sat, Apr 22, 2000 at 19:27:58 (GMT)
From: infinity trade
Email: infinity_trade@yahoo.com
To: Daneane
Subject: Both
Message:
The world sure has both Daneane. I am not arguing either. should we breath in or out? Ha sorry, meditation. Put it this way I got out of group mentalities years ago. That is the breeding ground of kults, anti-kult-kults whatever. I am an individual and I practice my own way and think my own thoughts. I use knowledge because I got it for nothing and found it works fine for me. The dogma's the theories you can keep, who-so-evers, yours, theirs. I'll take or diregard as I want. In, out. Ha! Night, Day. Ha! the world is the world, people are people and me I'm me. These are facts to me but what are they to you?
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Date: Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 00:20:27 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: infinity trade
Subject: Both
Message:
Thank you for the response IT. Does that mean you do not depend or follow M anymore, but only practice knowledge? Are you aware that 'knowledge' is something around long before big M?

Is it your personal experience that you do not need M's continued guidance to make the most of meditation?

People are people yes, but what does that really say? I am baffling to them, them to me. I'd like to try to understand them without manipulating them or putting carrots before their souls. I have my doubts that M feels the same way.

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Date: Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 08:00:24 (GMT)
From: infinity trade
Email: infinity_trade@yahoo.com
To: Daneane
Subject: Both
Message:
Of course the knowlege has been around before M. He goes to great pains to say that consistantly. It is totally stupid to think M wants everybody to follow him around and constantly seek his advice. The whole world eventually, theoretically? Goodness me who beleives that. M is spreading the knowlege as he sees it as a good job to do and he likes it as a way of earning a living. He is good at it. They called Elvis King. Does that mean he ruled, setting law like a king, or is it just a title of praise by his fans? Most premies get on with their lives. Most just quitely get on practising the knowlege. Some give it up. M says don't do it if you don't want to. The problem is all these people coming together in this crazy world. They end up making each other nutty, whether they practise the knowlege or not. I have to laugh at some of the nuttyness here. you sound like premies. I suppose every particle has a positive and negative spin. But there is a neutral spin. just getting on with life whether or not, with or without knowlege. But people have to learn. I learned quick and hard. I still practise the knowlege and occassionally I go and see an M video. I understand him clearly. He speak clearly and simply. But if you suffer from the positive or negative nuttyness, you will read all sorts of nonesense in what he says. I am just a nuetral nut, and I say Maharaji go go go, you doing just great.
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Date: Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 14:23:32 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: infinity trade
Subject: Both
Message:
Well I appreciate your perpsective IT, but I have to disagree. I do think meditation and individuality are good things; but I don't think they are compatible with any degree of Big M. If he is 'giving' knowledge, why the extensive screening processes? Why the request to 'keep in touch'? I was only an aspirant, but even in those videos he ask that you come with a bowl...not a filter. That seems to me to be asking me to just take in what he says. He also says to trust in myself enough to allow myself to trust in him. Why? Why a bowl? I prefer a quote a came across recently in a Buddhist text: 'Put no head above your own'.
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Date: Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 10:55:13 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: infinity trade
Subject: Right On IT
Message:
Aint it great the way the % of the population hearing about knowledge just keeps going up and up because of his tireless dedication to the cause, not
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Date: Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 09:26:42 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: infinity trade
Subject: agreement at last !
Message:
Hey you said something I REALLY agree with!

'Maharaji go , go, go'

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Date: Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 19:42:32 (GMT)
From: infinity trade
Email: infinity_trade@yahoo.com
To: Hal
Subject: agreement at last !
Message:
Yep I knew someone would construe that one anti-kult-kults are just a predictable as kults. How come you never discuss the experience of the knowlege. It worked fantastically for me and no it did not cost, cause I had no money to give by I got something better.
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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 09:52:47 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: infinity trade
Subject: Hey IT
Message:
The techniques work fine for many ex premies Trader. I still do some inward looking myself from time to time using a variation of those methods. The main question here is not about the value of going within, but the hold of the meglomaniac telly guru.

You keep saying that for you it was a free gift. You perhaps hear only what you want to hear ( perhaps I do too ). Maha does not allow freedom to premies, in fact he probably wouldn't like you arguing his case for him here.It's not just about how much or how little we gave financially but about the false promises we believed. For example many premies neglected areas of their lives which are very important i.e. financial security, relationships with family etc; Based on many recorded promises about the ' reality of existence' expounded by M . Then he changes it all and dismisses the pain and trauma caused to premies.

He cares not one bit for any of his trusting fools. He is a callous Indian businessman , exploiting the naievete of a bunch of Western seekers. In India the guru business is just the same as any other. Family tradition makes the next guru. See M's story. Just a very profitable business based on bog standard ancient yoga techniques. It surprises me that we could all be duped into thinking that 'that experience' was something unique that only premies experienced.

Do you really find him so unique and inspiring? I think I convinced myself that although he is inarticulate he delivered the message simply. Looking now it seems that he says nothing that hasn't been said much better before. His whole trick is in convincing people that he is the perfect master and that those techniques are unique. He can't even sit still to meditate on them himself. He'd much prefer a brandy and cigar to relax with!

Bullshit baffles brains for only so long.

Best wishes in finding YOURSELF truly, Hal

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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 05:00:05 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: infinity trade
Subject: agreement at least
Message:
No, we discuss it sometimes but you seem like you'd rather argue than discuss with people with whom you have some agreement with here.
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Date: Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 19:51:41 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: infinity trade
Subject: Did nolige mak u an ignoramus?
Message:
Why is it that so many premies who post here come across as cretins? Did 28 years of meditation do that? Are you able to function in the world with this kind of spelling and grammar? What do you do anyway? (Besides listen to your breath and squeeze your eyeballs, I mean).
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Date: Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 18:37:27 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: IT
Subject: I see you're down below ,15 mins of fame! nt )
Message:
asd
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Date: Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 11:34:51 (GMT)
From: A.P.
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Get your registration forms here
Message:
Entry passes will be given out the night before the event from 4pm-8pm or on the day of the event starting at 8am. the events will begin and 11am. with a second session in the afternoon. seats will be assigned radomly. there are different forms for different events. a seating registration fee is requested. A buffet lunch will be included in the suggested reservation fee of $45.oo in Miami on both days. Dont see any buffet lunches available in any other cities. Each form allows for 2 registrations. Translation will be in Spanish only for Miami. but if you go to LA, you can hear M's BS inGujarati, hindi, mandarin & Spanish. If you wanted to hear it in Tamil, go to Toronto. IF you want a copy of the registration packet there is a fax on request. From a fax machine dial 918-222-7358 and follow the recorded instructions.

Registration forms can be picked up at local video events as of yesterday.

More info later

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Date: Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 22:22:05 (GMT)
From: Angry
Email: None
To: A.P.
Subject: Get your registration forms here/Random Seating?
Message:
That would be random seating for the rank and file cult members only
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Date: Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 11:41:18 (GMT)
From: A.P.
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Get your registration forms here
Message:
It seems there will be premies lurking all around the hotel. Like I said in a previous post, if you have a room at this hotel, they can't force you to leave. I've been watching all those people standing outside Elians house, obviously they are allowed to be there. Elan Vital security are not police. Do they really have a right to kick you out of a hotel your staying in? I dont think so.
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Date: Sat, Apr 22, 2000 at 01:38:27 (GMT)
From: dv
Email: None
To: A.P.
Subject: Lets have a power breakfast(or dinner) at the
Message:
hotel! Next time, we could organize an ex-premie ball! I'll wear a tutu and recite Flabberwocky (given enough margaritas, of course...)!
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Date: Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 19:23:17 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: A.P.
Subject: Get your registration forms here
Message:
Just a side note on that - I don't believe you have to even have a room there, so long as you are legitimately using the hotel facilities, ie having lunch, a coffee, meeting people etc, you have a perfect right to be there so long as you are not breaking any laws. Ultimately, the only people authorised to ask you to leave (other than the cops) would be Hotel security or other hotel official. M. will arrive in the lower level parking lot rather than thru the lobby - there is access via stairs to the meeting room area on the south side.
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Date: Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 10:10:24 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Going to Latvia (OT)
Message:
Well everyone, I'm about to pack up my computer for my move to Latvia. for those with some knowledge of European geography (this excludes most Americans - only joking!!), my trip is by car to Newcastle (NE England), ferry to Kristiansand (Norway), then car to Oslo (Norway) and Stockholm (Sweden), ferry to Tallin (Estonia) and car to my home near Limbazi (Latvia). Until I get my home phone sorted out I will only have occasional net access from the internet cafe in Riga, but rest assured I will be back!

Thanks in advance for all your good wishes as I am unlikely to read them for a week or so. And as far as the fat fraud is concerned, keep up the good work!

John.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 21:04:23 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Exes phone conference tonight
Message:
Everybody's so spaced out that we need to have this in order to set things straight. This email mess can't go on anymore ...

SB's going to give you details shortly; we're making the arrangements right now.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 21:38:28 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Here's the details!
Message:
We need your phone # in order to book the lines.

Please email me at
jmkahn@club-internet.fr
or SB for those of you knowing her email

ASAP

The phone hookup will be at 11 pm eastern time TODAY.

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Date: Sat, Apr 22, 2000 at 02:01:22 (GMT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Here's the details!
Message:
rats, I Missed that.
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Date: Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 06:19:10 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: so what are the details?
Message:
I'm dying of curiousity. Can't help meself.

Just have to know. What was the email stuff that had to be resolved and did it get resoolved?
I mean, just this one little ex, barely existing on here, posted below that she has been emailed by people she doubts exist.
Former forum posters. So I'm curious if any of this type of thing were discussed or WHAT was discussed. Since it was an open invitation I am assuming we will be getting a debriefing?

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Date: Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 14:16:52 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: what could you be debriefed about?
Message:
You were not part of the phone feed ... hahaha

The main conclusion is that we're going to have fun somewhere on the contryside in northern Pennsylvania ..... and then somewhere close to D.C., and then to Katie's and Brian's !

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Date: Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 17:21:52 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: oh sorry JM
Message:
I seem to have an over serious side and a playful side.
One of these days they'll get together and I'll find out what normal fun is huh?? For some insane reason I thought this was about the recent full moon weird threads here.
I know you'll enjoy yourself no matter what. If you see a woman with auburn hair and a michievous smile looking spaced -- RUN!!!
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Date: Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 22:57:54 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: we did?
Message:
We talked about me visiting. And I still want to sometime.
I'd leave my hotel room for 3 hours at a time and be able to handle visiting with you and Brian. Seriously that's about my socializing capacity. Ask eb. But have a great time everyone!!
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Date: Sat, Apr 22, 2000 at 00:10:49 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: introverts unite
Message:
Hi Selene -
It is fine with me if that is your visiting capacity, and we would love to see you. I always warn people that I am an introvert, and may have to escape during social visits to take naps, etc :). People have been VERY understanding. Brian does the same with the computer (we HAVE to get a laptop!) I spent the first 30 years of my life feeling like there was something wrong with me for being introverted - it helps to know other people are that way too (25% of the population, according to the Myers-Brigg test!).

Love,
Katie

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Date: Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 03:33:19 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: freewheeling@bigfoot.com
To: Katie
Subject: introverts unite
Message:
Katie:

I'm an even balance between introvert and extrovert according to the M-B. But it was my understanding that 'introvert' on that test doesn't refer to the popular conception. Introvert means an individual who gets his or her values and motivation primarily from within. When I was a political canvasser the majority of successful fund raisers were introverts, which meant that they could take the constant rejection without folding. They didn't have trouble meeting and talking to people though.

BTW, when are you going to make it out here to vortex of enlightened confusion?

--Scott

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Date: Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 13:32:38 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: introverts unite
Message:
Hi Scott -
My idea of 'introvert' after reading the Meyers-Briggs material and some other stuff, is that an introvert gets energy from being alone, rather than an extrovert, who gets energy from being with other people. I am *definitely* an introvert, but I don't have a problem meeting and talking to people (I hate to talk on the phone most of the time though, but I think that is something else). I just can't do it for very long, if you know what I mean.

I thought your definition was interesting. Not sure I could take the constant rejection, but I do see how the definition would tend imply that. Maybe they are talking about fully realized introverts (snicker).

About the vortex of enlightened confusion...not sure, but sometime this summer probably (whenever Brian stops working 6 days a week!). My family has actually been coming down here to visit - no traffic, peaceful, etc., plus their kids like the small college town atmosphere. I would love to meet you - finally - and I'll definitely let you know when we are coming.

Take care -
Katie

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Date: Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 15:54:59 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Highly/Ultra-sensitive men and women
Message:
I'm not familiar with the Meyer-Briggs breakdown (it seems to be a problematical over-simplification), but I've found The Highly Sensitive Person, by Elaine N. Aron, a most helpful book in terms of looking at these questions. I did a search on the web a while ago and came up with Roger Easterbrooks' work - worthwhile checking out on a number of levels, and primarily aimed at men. Links for the interested:

Roger Easterbrooks Ultra-sensitive

MenWeb: Comprehensive men's issues site

Relationships by Bert Hoff and Roger Easterbrooks

World Overwhelms You By: Roger Easterbrooks

Nice coincidence with his name, no? And there's a lot more in there.

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Date: Sat, Apr 22, 2000 at 04:43:00 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: introverts unite
Message:
Hey Katie
Meyers Briggs told me I was an extrovert. First time around
compared me to Stalin and Thatcher some other types I didn't like.
So I took it again. Changed some answers. Still got extrovert but got compared to Madonna. So much for those tests. May as well look at my horoscope.
But if I am one I'm a short term extrovert. 3 hours max then back to hibernation for recoup time.
How to tell them this as they prepare a room for me with 5 other
people in Dilbert style 'Office Space' weirdness?

no, I'm an introvert who likes to take tests and likes to write.

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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 06:17:25 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: extroverted intros
Message:
I think you are an extrovert Selene. You seem most comfortable when you are posting a lot and quickly, not cautiously posting carefully written posts.

That's outward bound communication-
corresponds to extorversion.

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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 17:56:05 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: and it has been my downfall
Message:
I've burnt out. Totally and completely.
Thanks for all your support and I'm sorry for any conflict we have had. It's that damned extrovert in me. or out of me. whatever :)
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Date: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 18:30:31 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: oh I wouldnt call it that
Message:
Oh, I'm glad you're around. One little thing here and there isn't worth the trouble of calling it a conflict. I guess I agree with the author of 'Dont Sweat the Little Stuff' (not that iI've ever read it).
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Date: Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 22:05:50 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Hey, you can fly in!
Message:
We'd be happy to have you (didn't we talk about this earlier?) Next weekend...tentatively.
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Date: Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 23:43:14 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: I answered you above
Message:
as I said, spaced :)
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Date: Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 12:44:39 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: so what are the details?
Message:
Hi Selene -
I wasn't able to stay up late enough for the phone conference (what a wimp I am lately!), but it was about J-M's visit to the US. Scheduling and all...you know how hard it is to straighten those things out via individual e-mail.

Take care -
Love from Katie

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Date: Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 17:24:14 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: got it
Message:
I didn't understand why he asked everyone to hook up.
Hey maybe Jim was right huh It's Not About Me?
HA!!
...I'll think I'll go hide under the covers now
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Date: Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 21:08:10 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Is there a 'fee' or 'donation'? (nt)
Message:
NT
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Date: Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 21:32:32 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Gratitude expected !! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 20:02:00 (GMT)
From: Elan Vital
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: North American Tour
Message:
North American Tour, for PWIKs only. Limited size venues so the small attendance won't be so noticeable. For North Americans only.

April 25 - Santa Monica, CA
May 4 - Miami Beach, FL
May 6 - Miami Beach, FL
June 12 - Boston, MA
June 14 - Toronto, Cananda
June 18 - Alexandria, VA

For further information contact your local information sources or your local ex-premie spy.

Also: A Satellite Broadcast will be televised to North America on April 30th at 1pm Pacific time. Still 25 bucks for each person.

From elanvital.org, What's Happening link

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Date: Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 07:35:02 (GMT)
From: Angry
Email: None
To: Elan Vital
Subject: Notify Venues-'The Speaker' is a CULT leader(NT)
Message:
aaa
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Date: Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 20:49:54 (GMT)
From: AKA Bert Russell
Email: None
To: Elan Vital
Subject: North American Tour
Message:
Can anyone attend? Let's organize something. Why don't we get thos Krishna witnesses to chant at the door just as they did in Houston? Too bad I ain't due for holidays in Fla.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 21:12:40 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: AKA Bert Russell
Subject: How About If We Leaflet for Upcoming Events?
Message:
We could were Guru Maharaj Ji buttons, earth shoes, polyester suits, and we could carry barragons, burn incense and carry copies of old Divine Times. It would be fun and we would be fine, just being good premies.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 23:25:23 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: I'd go and sell CD's all the good stuff on them
Message:
$ 3 each.

Will be a good business, and keep those special ushers busy chasing me !! Ah Ah ... I'll have blond hair and lenses, they won't recognize me .... hehe!!

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Date: Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 21:20:33 (GMT)
From: A.P.
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Mia event in..................
Message:
I know the Miami event will be held in a hotel If you're staying there they can't kick you out can they?
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Date: Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 23:11:03 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: A.P.
Subject: They have a nice coffee bar in the lobby.........
Message:
Radisson Deauville Resort

Address: 6701 Collins Avenue
Miami Beach, FL 33141
Telephone: (305) 865-8511
Fax: (305) 865-8154
Rooms: 550
Suites: 20
In Rooms: Cable TV.

139.95/2persons/1bed

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Date: Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 23:18:16 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Looking for a roommate?
Message:
May I share your room?

I don't snor...

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Date: Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 23:46:13 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Well actually...
Message:
..I was thinking a lady companion might be more my thing! Girls?
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Date: Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 23:57:07 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Well obviously ....
Message:
I'm no lady, but then we both could spare some money and donate it. Looks like EV's more desperate than ever after 'support' ....

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Date: Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 21:08:31 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: AKA Bert Russell
Subject: I'd never get in
Message:
They stopped me last time and questioned my premiedom when I still was one! That might have been the problem though. I was sincerely 'IN MY MIND' that a time.

ha, you don't think they'd have my picture I posted here circulating with the security- nah!!!
Too funny.

selene - a bit full of herself

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Date: Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 20:45:14 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Elan Vital
Subject: North American Tour
Message:
How does one sign up to go to one of these things? Since an ex-premie is, by definition, a PWK, it appears we are all invited. Would anyone like to attend one of these joyous events with me? Should we go as a group? Will there be a translation section, for those who do not understand premiespeak?

Will Maharaji be wearing a suit? I wanna know, as he apparently didn't in Amaroo, and if he's that casual, well, I'm not going.

Is there a dress code for a PWK? What is it?

Will there be simplistic elevator music, written by the speaker himself?

If we get really ceeped out, can we leave?

What is the suggested 'donation' and do they take American Express?

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Date: Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 20:49:23 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: More Questions....
Message:
Will there be darshan?

Will Daya be entertaining?

Will there be food, and if so, what?

If a premie can't go, because he or she is dying or something, so he or she won't miss anything if, by his grace, they recover?

Will there be assigned seating, and how is that done?

If we get really bored, can we leave?

Will there be a question and answer session?

If someone isn't a PWK, why can't they attend? Will there be something discussed a non-pwk isn't supposed to hear? Why?

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Date: Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 22:02:14 (GMT)
From: EV-ex
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: JW- Some ANSWERS
Message:
JW -

The entire reason for and focus of this tour is 'intimate knowlege reviews', with knowledge sessions in LA and Miami.

You can only attend one event - you must reserve your seat in advance by fax. There are different forms and different fax numbers for each city - probably available at local video events.

Once you get there, you have to show an 'entry pass' to get in.
To get an 'entry pass' at the event location, you will have to go to a designated area to 'convince' instructors that you ARE INDEED an initiated premie.

There will be HEAVY SECURITY at all events, due to potential ex-premie disruptions or ex-premies alerting local media. The media is what Elan Vital is MOST afraid of. Gee, I wonder why?

Of course, Rawat has been busy in the studio creating special videos/music for the events, which is another reason that the schedule has been jerked around for the past few weeks.

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Date: Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 01:05:06 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: EV-ex
Subject: More Questions.
Message:
How does one 'convince' an instructor that one is 'an initiated premie?' Reveal the techniques? No, can't do that....how? Do you think instructors have special powers to tell if someone is a premie or not? It must be grace. ::))

What if you showed up, saying you hadn't been around for 15 years, hadn't meditated in 15 years, but heard M was in town and your wanted to see him again, and were considering getting back 'involved.' Would they let you in, I mean if you didn't know all the current lingo and was still in the devotion and 'satsang, service and meditation' era? I mean how could they turn you away, if you were a sincere, but fallen, premie?

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Date: Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 07:46:54 (GMT)
From: Angry
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: More Questions./Turn Around
Message:
It would be interesting to turn the interview process around, putting the instructors on the defensive by having to explain to you why they are a person w/knowledge!
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Date: Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 01:53:52 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: More answer
Message:
They'll have you seated in a special section and carefully monitored by some 'special ushers' I know ....

And in case you start doing anything wierd, you'll be out of the hall faster than you can imagine ...

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Date: Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 01:00:31 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: EV-ex
Subject: Media in Los Angeles
Message:
Any contacts? The Los Angeles Times is fairly decent at covering things. Perhaps a letter to the times, with website addresses, along with contacts, etc. There was that reporter for People who wanted to do a 25th anniversary thing about Millennium.... But it could be a good 'what ever happened to that fat kid guru' kind of story. That's the angle I would use with the press, and see if they show up. Tell they they are likely to be excluded from the event, and we are happy to tell them why.

I would assume the same could be done in Miami, Toronto and DC.

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Date: Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 03:44:44 (GMT)
From: Rupie Murdoch
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Media in Los Angeles
Message:
A week or two ago, someone posted an article by Robert Scheer of the L.A. Times about his experiences at Millennium. That was the article where someone told him to go the a specific corner of the parking lot and aliens would be landing.

He might be interested in a follow up.

rscheer@robertscheer.com

rscheer@aol.com

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Date: Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 14:46:23 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Rupie Murdoch
Subject: Re:R.Scheer of the LA Times
Message:
RM,

Good idea. I've just emailed Mr. Scheer with the tour schedule and an offer to help if he needs more info, (although I'm not in LA myself). The Santa Monica program is next Tuesday, so I don't know if there is time to write an article.

I think the LA Times might be interested at some point, after all Maharaji is a local character there in LA. The newspaper should be allerted if the struggle between followers and ex-followers ever amounts to some picketing or some such activity.

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Date: Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 01:36:49 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Miami angle
Message:
Miami angle would be to work the comparison between Mahrashitch and Castro - dictator, controller, repressor - then throw the Elian line in there - 'what if the kid gets to stay then one day falls into this cult, or worse, meets jagdeo'
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Date: Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 23:33:30 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: EV-ex
Subject: Reasons for heavy security
Message:
The media is what Elan Vital is MOST afraid of. Gee, I wonder why?

My idea is that it's just to justify the heavy security, i.e. Rawat's own security, because he's paranoid to no extent. And he doesn't want disruption during the event. But he has NO control on this I'm afraid.

He's afraid of MANY things: ex-mistresses doing scandal, exes, pissed of premies, because he has lots of resons indeed to be scared!!!

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Date: Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 23:49:59 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Hey!! You are posting in the wrong time zone!(nt)
Message:
Tick Tock.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 14:25:23 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Is TD right? Are premies possibly CHEESEBALLS??!
Message:
But then I studied a little further and soon pattern emerged, virtually right before my eyes. There was cheese here and not just a little, there was a lot! Yes, it was true; Maharaji had turned them all into cheeseballs! Here's what I found. Here are some of the moldiest veins running through their minds like cobwebs of clarity in the hallways of infinity. Hell, make that 'infinity and beyond!' Why the fuck not, eh?:

On virgin soil
by Astrid Tholens

My first experience of taking the electric wheelchair over Amaroo virgin soil, to attend an event with Maharaji!

We arrived early enough to have some time to enjoy the sites. I discovered that where the event was being held (at the back of Campground A) was ideal for my new challenge, to get around under my own steam (with the help of a dear friend who did all the preparations for me to make it possible for me to attend the event).

First onto the ramp behind the restaurant, then skirting the tables and chairs on the veranda, and gently opening the glass sliding doors of the restaurant where a beautiful Information table display awaited me.cheese! My friends were excited to see me there looking so well. I was determined to get the most out of my new mobility, and moved on to the outside area. I discovered a flat crossing where the restaurant and the road met, and there I was on Amaroo virgin soil on my own, tentatively finding my own way. Slightly rougher ground than expected, with loose gravel roads and sliding ridges to manoeuvre. I had been reassured that a special area had been assigned for us at the event site, very comfortable under a grove of trees in the shade, and so I felt free to explore for a while.

I found a few friends to chat with, and then had a chance to enjoy the materials resource display, beautifully displayed under a rich, Inca-like canopy for shade.cheese! As I rode towards the event site, a friend who was there for the first time came up to me and I shared my joy at seeing her there. cheese! People seemed to be very excited, everyone chatting quite intensely. I was pleased to spend some time on the campbed before Maharaji came on stage. A wave of joy spread through the crowd. I could see all of him this time, a simple stage with large pot plants skirting the stage, giving a feeling of welcome. cheese!

He began his talk with the words: 'In the beginning there was darkness. And then there was light,' his complexion darkened by the cloud cover. 'What's the use of having light when there's nothing to look at? What's the point of having this life if we don't use it?' That without that experience of being able to enjoy our very existence, and to have that appreciation and celebrate our life, everything seems meaningless.

He spoke about accepting this life. Real acceptance. Not trying to change things to suit ourselves. But accepting things the way they are. That somehow in that acceptance lies our joy. If we can accept the love that is in our life, than that love will grow.cheese! If we can accept that truth in our life, than truth can grow. (Truth he said, not tooth. We can go off on a tangent and count all our teeth, but what good will that do us?)cheese! cheese!

He explained that there were over 60,000 aspirants around the world waiting to receive Knowledge. He said: 'I better start to boogie'.

He spoke about how Amaroo had undergone many changes , and that there had been a need to re-group, and to make a new commitment to Knowledge. Also a time for resting and reflection. But that things are starting to take off again, and that it felt very inspiring. He said he wanted to come back to do some Knowledge sessions in the Pacific area.

He told a story about a female Wallaby with a little Joe in her pouch, that had come up to him and kept on looking at him, edging her way closer and closer. Than finally she headed for the billabong to drink some water, and fled. He said that that was a real example of how one's thirst can provide that inspiration to take us beyond our fears.cheese! Fear of contentment.cheese! Freedom. To not let our fears and doubts rob us of that precious gift of life.

He said this Knowledge is a gift. It is the best thing happening in the world.

Approximately 1100 people attended the event. 'Some managed to scramble here. Australia is the lucky country'.

I couldn't see his face very clearly, but the feeling of his presence was overwhelming.... and the cloudy sky and sun-tipped mountains in the background added a feeling of magic. There we were again, almost a repeat of the 1992 event, only a few white plastic chairs, most people sitting on blankets or camp chairs, families with young children, the elderly, the injured, the healthy, all congregating to catch one moment with our teacher. So simple, one day's preparation, real teamwork.... smiling bubbly faces... excitement simplicity. cheese!

Everyone stood up to wave goodbye... as he left by car, and in a final farewell tooted his horn. A moment of feeling desolate, unable to let him go, unable to speak, riding up the hill silently, the dusk of the night coming on, a few lights for the lingerers... a hot cup of coffee before setting off back home... one last look at the rich tapestry of moon and sky and Amaroo. So many memories. So many times I've been with him. And yet never enough, I want more and more. I'd like days with him, to see him and laugh with him, to just learn and learn and enjoy and enjoy. cheese! I know he has planted a seed in me and I'll water it. I told you it was like date rape, didn't I? I will get healthier and more mobile and am planning to be part of preparing for the next event. big fucking deal, Astrid. Why not just join a church? There must be some Happy Clapper congregation in your town, huh?

Maharaji, thank you for coming. For inviting me. For giving me with your precious gift. Your vital inspiration for life touches me so deeply. I am mesmerised by your message, by your beauty, and the wondrous opportunities that life is gifted with. cheese!

A simple event
by Francis Turner

Friday evening was the first time I heard. What a surprise, not even knowing that Maharaji was down under, and yet there's going to be an outdoor event in less than 48 hours.

Amaroo now in the dry season is quite hot but hides many sites for events. Just find the correct slope the perfect wooded backdrop and there it is in all simplicity. Build a small stage have a few lines marked out on the grass and ask nobody's permission. The simplicity of being with the master at its most perfect. cheese!

Even the fan on the stage turned by the gentle breeze at the perfect speed.cheese! cheese! The late afternoon sky mottled over with sweet shading clouds and the mornings heat dissipated as if by the most perfect air conditioning. cheese!

Maharaji arrives driving himself right up to the steps of a simple low stage and sits. What a wonderful relief to see him, what an incredible joy to sit back and hear him speak. cheese!

He begins with a joke that makes us laugh, and just talks to us. cheese! cheese! cheese! He's so glad to see us and we are so glad to see him.

A wonderful surprise
by Ann Turner

What was so wonderful about his surprise event was that Australia had not been scheduled, as far as we knew, for an event this year. We did not think he would accept any invitations to come here, so personally, I was beginning to despair!cheese! cheese!

I was invited to go and help in the preparations the next day about an hour after we got the news of the event. It took me back to the magic of the 1992 event, which was when I first fell in love with Amaroo. I was doing much the same thing, helping peg out the boundaries of the event with a piece of string.

Last year I had been working at Ivory's Rock for a few months, helping prepare for the events that never happened. It was all so complicated then, and this was the total opposite-the watchword was to keep everything really simple. cheese!

Before he arrived on the stage, I almost had to pinch myself to see if this was really happening. cheese!

Once again, he gave us so much clarity and inspiration: he emphasised the need to accept, accept, accept, if you want to be happy, to always count your blessings and boy did he make a lot of sense! cheese! cheese! cheese!

Just like silk

The phone calls started going around Australia on Friday: Maharaji would be attending an impromptu program, Sunday 4pm, at Amaroo.

Most of us got less than 48 hours notice. One Melbourne couple received the call at 8.45am on the day, and were driving to the airport at 9.15. Others were reached on their mobile phones hundreds of miles from home.

One person was phoned from a party in country Victoria by his wife, who doesn't have Knowledge: 'Get back here! You have to go to Queensland.'

She added: 'You're always so much easier to deal with after these things. If you fall asleep while he's talking, there will be trouble.'cheese! cheese! cheese!

At Amaroo, there was little time for serious preparation. A food servery was set up in the dining room, and snacks prepared. A simple stage was established on a delightful slope on the south end of Campground A. Australia's well-oiled registration system was resurrected literally overnight.cheese!

The weather was perfect: dry and warm, with light cloud. Throughout Sunday afternoon, from 1pm, people showed up. Registration proceeded smoothly - no big waits - and by 3.30 virtually every attendee was sitting at the program site, listening to the intro music.

The lack of available time to 'get into' planning was a good lesson for planners of future Amaroo events. Things really can be simple.

'I saw someone's umbrella blow over at one point,' said one attendee. 'That was the major slip-up of the day. The whole thing just went like silk. No stress, no tears.'

Notable were some people who hadn't been to a program for many years: perhaps the simplicity and spontaneity of this event was what attracted them.cheese!

Maharaji drove, alone, down the edge of the crowd, and parked next to the stage. He got out of his car - no suit! - and climbed the few steps to the stage.cheese! cheese!

He was cheered by a very happy, arm-waving multitude.cheese! Healthy-looking and glowing, in an open-necked shirt, he did not waste much time with civilities.cheese! It was a particularly strong address, from the first.

His hands repeatedly punctured the air as he drove home his message. 'Describing' his address would be banal: this is an act only one can perform.cheese! One can only describe the effect on those lucky enough to get there.cheese! cheese!

Certainly for most it came as a fresh breeze blowing through the cluttered corridors of their lives. It's been a while since the last event, and Amaroo has been 'on ice' for some months, as new staff and new plans are chosen for its next phase.

So, for many, the sense of 'involvement' of previous years has been missing for a while. This has had its advantages, as Maharaji acknowledged on the day: people's other projects have been caught up with. But a spark, an edge, has been lacking that many of us had grown rather fond of.

It was more than just his words. Maharajišs impromptu Sunday event, in ways that are difficult to understand rationally, swept away an awful lot of the cobwebs of the last year.cheese!

It reminded us of the best things we had done, and the best feelings we had felt. And that these things were not just some quality belonging to past years, but an eternally reclaimable centre to our lives. All you got to do is keep Registering! And what did The Speaker teach us this time? He taught us that we could Register anywhere, anytime, on a moment's notice! In the middle of the Autstralian outback, smack dab in the middle of wallabee's and billybongs and didgeredoos, you can Register instantly, smooth as silk, fast and pretty, nice, nice, wave arm, ooo ooo, ahh, ahh -- calm down now! -- ah! ah!, nice, nice, oooh, he doesn't have a tie on! -- easy now -- Register within, simple is as simple does ........

cheese!

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Date: Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 00:06:30 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Is TD right? Are premies possibly CHEESEBALLS??!
Message:
This is my favorite excerpt:

'A wave of joy spread through the crowd. I could see all of him this time, a simple stage with large pot plants skirting the stage, giving a feeling of welcome.'

Perhaps it was the 'pot plants' that induced the wave of joy. As you know, they are very welcoming plants.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 23:38:51 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Is TD right? Are premies possibly CHEESEBALLS??!
Message:
Thanks for inserting those little cheese flags, Jim. I couldn't possibly have read all that garbage, so I knew where to get those little cheese bits. All the cheese parts were very cheesey but this one jumped out at me...

Even the fan on the stage turned by the gentle breeze at the perfect speed.

This shit really pisses me off. It isn't exclusive to maharaji or premies, either. Many New Age groups and Eastern religious groups do the same thing... they capitalize on the fortunate events by attributing them to their leader or god or ideas, and they explain away the misfortune as a result of not properly practicing the discipline or saying that misfortune is actually fortune.

It's as though they're trying to say they have more good luck than the ordinary folks.

But you're right, Jim. In the end it's just cheese; stupid gee-whilakers ideas.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 18:55:10 (GMT)
From: Angry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Fatso Ji will even SCAM the disabled(NT)
Message:
What a simple uncaring monster!
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