Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Thurs, May 04, 2000 at 22:25:06 (GMT)
From: Apr 20, 2000 To: May 02, 2000 Page: 4 Of: 5


JW -:- Elian/Gulliani (OT) -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 17:04:04 (GMT)
__ dv -:- The Cubans attacked me yesterday. -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 00:27:42 (GMT)
__ dv -:- Elian who?nt -:- Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 03:01:31 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- Elian/Gulliani (OT) -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 17:17:40 (GMT)
__ __ JW -:- Good Point -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 17:25:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mike -:- Sorry, JW -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 20:41:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Mike -:- Oh, yes.... AND -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 22:05:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Will you guys chill out a bit? -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 22:10:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- I agree with Jim... -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 12:00:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Jim, tell us to calm down by doing meditation. -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 22:32:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- BWAH HA HA HA HA and no, Jim.... -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 22:41:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Mike, you are confused..... -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 22:55:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- I'll buy the fact -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 23:28:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- I'll buy the fact -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 23:44:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- OK, then..... -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 23:55:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Mike, Mike Mike -:- Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 05:55:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- So what are you saying -:- Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 14:25:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Here's What I'm Saying -:- Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 16:46:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- Who said anything about -:- Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 17:09:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Excessive Use of Force -:- Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 18:13:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- Is that why Miami is shutting down? -:- Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 18:58:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Powerman -:- Is that why Miami is shutting down? -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 03:12:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Don't bray at me, big boy -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 22:45:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Mike, WHAT are you talking about? (nt) -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 22:09:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- JW, I was talking about..... -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 22:53:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- The Crucible -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 02:49:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Oh, well I was talking about.... -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 22:59:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JW -:- Get a Grip, Mike -- or a valium, or something -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 21:53:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- Sorry JW, this one just really got me going! -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 22:32:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- I'm getting really good at self torture -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 03:49:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Okay, I get how you feel, but..... -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 22:47:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- If Elian were Haitian... -:- Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 15:11:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- If Elian were Haitian... -:- Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 18:39:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- If Elian were Haitian... -:- Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 17:27:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- Actually, I don't think there -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 23:10:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Easy for you to say Mike.... -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 23:26:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Yup, yup, and yup.... -:- Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 15:16:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Yup, yup, and yup.... -:- Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 18:34:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- NO, it isn't easy for me to say -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 23:44:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- NO, it isn't easy for me to say -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 04:11:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- I understand.... -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 15:32:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- I understand.... -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 16:08:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Mike, with all due respect.... -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 23:53:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- Not entirely true -:- Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 00:21:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- INS tactics -:- Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 06:01:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- Yes, JW, I have seen their tactics -:- Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 14:22:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Jesus, Mike, get a grip again -:- Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 18:21:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- JW, I never said the Miami -:- Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 18:55:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- and, JW, you have earned -:- Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 14:58:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Mike, don't take yourself so seriously. -:- Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 18:22:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- JW, I too am sorry! (please read) -:- Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 19:07:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Powerman -:- JW, I too am sorry! (please read) -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 03:41:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- EXCUSE ME????? -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 14:54:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Powerman -:- EXCUSE ME????? -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 16:32:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- Fuck you, PA -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 16:56:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Powerman -:- Fuck you, PA -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 17:53:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- yes -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 17:30:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ john -:- what about the kid? nt -:- Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 12:14:07 (GMT)

Gregg -:- I would give everything I own -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 16:31:58 (GMT)
__ JW -:- Five Best All Time Cult Songs...... -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 19:01:15 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- I would give everything I own -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 16:49:42 (GMT)
__ __ blood boils -:- Waking up is hard to do. -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 17:57:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- you are someone I want to say bye to -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 17:58:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ blood boils -:- waking up to the fact that M is a fat boy fraud -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 18:59:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ blood boils -:- quick on the trigger Selene (nt) -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 19:22:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- I meant that sincerely -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 19:50:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ bb -:- I meant that sincerely -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 03:57:46 (GMT)

Raina -:- David Smith -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 06:16:54 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- Was that a laugh, or is it the way he farts? -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 06:21:46 (GMT)
__ Runamok -:- Thanks for posting Raina (nt) -:- Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 18:26:11 (GMT)
__ JW -:- David Smith -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 16:30:53 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Boy, are you ever confused! -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 16:25:41 (GMT)
__ __ beaver -:- Boy, are you ever confused! -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 04:09:03 (GMT)
__ __ Deputy Dog -:- . . . a superstitious hindu parlour trick? -:- Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 02:18:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- That's an atypically naive comment, Doggie -:- Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 04:06:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- I'm talking about K here, not M -:- Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 05:35:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Do you ever talk, or even think, about 'God' Dog? -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 02:49:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Do you ever talk, or even think, about 'God' Dog? -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 19:38:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- LOL !!! I'll ignore you now, and hope you go away -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 20:31:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- PS: I thank God I never got Knowledge! (nt) -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 22:52:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Whatever happened to 'I can show you God... -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 21:26:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Mili -:- Please explain -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 08:28:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- the breath -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 20:50:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mili -:- the breath -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 21:40:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- How long I can hold my breath -:- Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 00:39:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Please explain ... it's all hot air??? -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 20:01:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Sure -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 12:45:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mili -:- Sure -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 17:42:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Sure - simple-minded (nt) -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 20:07:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mili -:- Sure - simple-minded (nt) -:- Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 09:40:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Daneane -:- I'm talking about K here, not M -:- Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 06:11:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- I'm talking about K here, not M -:- Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 14:49:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Daneanen -:- I'm talking about K here, not M -:- Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 15:47:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- I'm talking about K here, not M -:- Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 17:20:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- What about Satpal? -:- Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 15:35:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- BWAH HA HA HA HA HA HA! -:- Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 20:17:39 (GMT)
__ __ Runamok -:- Boy -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 19:18:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Why not give him credit, Run? -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 20:58:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JW -:- Jim, a question.... -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 21:59:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Jim, a question.... -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 22:16:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- This may be a little incendiary, but...... -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 22:40:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Anon -:- This may be a little incendiary, but...... -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 23:50:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- This may be a little incendiary, but...... -:- Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 06:24:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- This may be a little incendiary, but...... -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 06:47:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Anon -:- This may be a little incendiary, but...... -:- Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 10:17:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- This may be a little incendiary, but...... -:- Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 19:29:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Anon -:- Why I still meditate once a month. -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 09:49:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Bingo! -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 22:49:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Almost missed it - Oh BOY, I'm glad I didn't! -:- Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 03:33:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Yeah.... -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 23:04:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Runamok -:- because he doesn't deserve it -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 21:29:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- I think that doesn't add up, myself -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 22:06:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- Your inferences are your own. -:- Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 02:45:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Thanks, you just spelled it out perfectly -:- Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 04:11:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- Your welcome -:- Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 05:35:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Let's clarify this -:- Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 06:24:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- And how about this, Run? -:- Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 06:28:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Jim , no disrespect but... -:- Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 14:51:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- I'm with Attila, myself -:- Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 15:12:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- I'm with Attila, myself -:- Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 17:05:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- The big diff: 'truth value' -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 01:53:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- The big diff: 'truth value' -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 10:07:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Come on, Hal -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 05:05:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Oh now I see Jim -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 07:18:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- 4 easy steps to 'God realization?! -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 02:21:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Good question. You obviously weren't there -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 02:43:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Gotta agree with Jim -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 15:59:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mili -:- Gotta agree with Jim -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 23:25:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Very astute, Mili -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 05:02:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mili -:- Very astute, Jim -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 07:54:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mili -:- ...and another thing -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 08:51:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- ..Mili .....Jim is his story? Yeah ! nt -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 15:12:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- P.S. Stonor -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 16:13:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Where Jim? In your mind? No. -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 02:54:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Oh, excuse me. Please, I'm sorry. Please -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 03:16:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- OK Jim, so God came down to show you how to realiz -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 03:27:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Let me qualify that -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 14:35:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Hi Stoner -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 15:22:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Getting sucked in -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 22:09:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- I'm with Attila, myself -:- Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 16:15:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- You must feel pretty confused, Run -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 02:08:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- If only words didn't come out of my mouth, -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 04:15:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- You'd rather spit than answer? Why? -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 14:13:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- You haven't digested a few days' of food? nt -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 16:55:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Do even YOU understand what you're saying? -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 02:39:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- I'm with Attila, myself pt 2 -:- Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 18:34:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Daneane -:- footnotes for the uninitiated -:- Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 00:36:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Anon -:- I think that doesn't add up, myself -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 23:06:18 (GMT)
__ Anon -:- David Smith -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 11:49:19 (GMT)
__ infinity trade -:- David Smith -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 08:01:59 (GMT)
__ Runamok -:- Raina's left -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 06:26:57 (GMT)

Robyn -:- tracking JM and SB -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 00:36:55 (GMT)
__ Helen -:- tracking JM and SB -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 00:56:54 (GMT)
__ __ Robyn -:- tracking JM and SB -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 02:18:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ They made it fine... -:- tracking JM and SB -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 05:54:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ who cares -:- tracking JM and SB -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 06:04:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Who cares about YOU, premie-ji? -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 16:50:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- hey Jim -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 16:59:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- hey Jim -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 18:45:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ We Care -:- tracking JM and SB -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 06:11:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Oh I care too very much -:- don't get me wrong -:- Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 06:30:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- don't get me wrong -:- Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 00:29:57 (GMT)


Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 17:04:04 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Elian/Gulliani (OT)
Message:
This is off topic, but did anyone else find Rudolph Gulliani's statements in Sunday's NY Times, that he was 'shocked' at the agressive police force used to seize Elian Gonzalez, just a bit hypocritical, given the brutality the NYC police department inflicts on the minority communities of NY on a regular basis? I actually burst out laughing when I read it. I thought it was a joke. Is this guy nuts?
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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 00:27:42 (GMT)
From: dv
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: The Cubans attacked me yesterday.
Message:
At Flagler and 27th Ave I got caught in a parade and told them off. They attempted to ram my vehicle, and I had an interesting dogfight. But I got away! These people don't hesistate to blur the line between arguing and violence. Reno understood that well.
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Date: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 03:01:31 (GMT)
From: dv
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Elian who?nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 17:17:40 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Elian/Gulliani (OT)
Message:
As I do my swan song on F5
I doubt you have followed my angst on AG of internet addiction and needing to get off here... and my neighbor being sized
by the INS.. it was awful. They own their home. They are really
good people. He was grabbed at work and deported. He is now living at his parents in Obregon and she is here, 4 months pregneant and alone. He had a good job. Meanwhile I have to deal with biker neighbors and drug dealer neighbors who have full citizenship and could care less and are oblivious about the struggles people go through. Elian's mother died trying to get him to this country.
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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 17:25:05 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Good Point
Message:
What people saw in that picture was a cake walk, compared to what the INS does everyday seizing people in the middle of the night, battering down doors and taking parents away from their kids. Unfortunately, when all those things happens, there aren't hundreds of TV cameras and news photographers on the scene.

I think it's very ironic that people like that clown Bob Smith of New Hampshire, who have been on a mission against immigrants (along with Pat Buchanan) and the need to brutally arrest and deport them without due process, are upset at what the INS was too aggressive in this case.

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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 20:41:55 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Sorry, JW
Message:
But what you are saying sounds hypocritical, too. Not once have you mentioned the fact that the Clinton administration is behind this one. You rail against the conservatives while letting the liberals off the hook..... sorry, but the conservatives had nothing to do with this one. This is a total 'liberal' show. Somewhat reminiscent of a 'socialist' government in the 30's and early 40's, no?

Now, lets talk about the incredible show of force against american citizens when there was absolutely no need for it. Why was it necessary to come into that house with H&K MP-5, FULL-AUTO, 9mm ASSAULT RIFLES when a few police service pistols would have done the job? There were NO weapons found in that house nor on anyone outside. The police would have known this with little doubt. But, I guess because they happen to be of Cuban descent, they MUST be dangerous criminals, right? Can you say 'profiling?' Sure you can!

Why was the weapon pointed in the direction of people who were OBVIOUSLY no threat to the safety of the INS official? Namely, Elian's lower torso? The only thing this guy did right was to NOT have his finger on the trigger when he did..... Yes, I notice little things like that, having been 'in the business' for quite awhile. The slightest mistake or equipment malfunction would have virtually guaranteed Elian's death!

Why was it necessary to involve the US military in a 'civil' action? You say they weren't involved? Try again..... The Air Force supplied the landing and meeting place for what was, essentially, a civilian custody battle. Clinton and Reno have violated the law BIG TIME when they involved the military in ANY way! I wonder if this will come out.

JW, this was an INCREDIBLE show of excessive force by ANY standard. These people aren't drug dealers, they aren't kidnappers and they weren't abusing the kid, either (if they had, the media presence would have made it pretty plain). They didn't have ANY firearms in their possession and presented no viable threat to the officers. Gee, why don't they use that kind of force to return kids to their parents during other custody battles? Why don't they use that kind of force trying to keep illegal immigrants out of this country, in the first place?

One last thing, the head mediator stated this morning that it was the GOVERNMENT that kept changing the rules, not the family. HE stated that the raid occurred during the final stages of negotiation and that the family had agreed to EVERY point, including the ones that had been changed by the government. He stated that he disagreed with Reno, entirely on this one. BTW, it's standard procedure to distract bad-guys with a phone call just prior to a raid. SO who was actually negotiating in good faith? What was the big hurry? Why was it necessary for the INS to endanger the lives of all involved by bringing fully-automatic weapons into play when standard-issue police sidearms would have been MORE than sufficient?

I wonder which judge signed the search order? I'll bet it was a personal friend of Reno's..... any takers? BTW, the Asst. Attorney General said that Reno really 'cried' immediately following the raid..... Funny..... I saw her on the TV not but a few minutes after the raid and her eyes and face showed no signs of puffy-ness..... Maybe he's lying????? Yeah, but who gives a damn.

Reno has, on more than three separate occasions, shown incredibly bad judgement and so has the president in supporting her stupidity. Of course, their general disdain for the rule of law and the rights of the individual has been amply demonstrated in the past, so that's no big surprise.

But, of course, let's divert the attention away from the ultra-liberal whitehouse and put it on the mayor of new york...... someone who had no connection with this stupid action. THAT was a red herring, JW.

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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 22:05:06 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Oh, yes.... AND
Message:
JW: I will add that I thought that Kent State was an incredibly stupid and costly show of force, too! The ONLY difference, and I do mean the ONLY difference was that someone pulled a trigger at Kent State...... Not much consolation, to me personally.

Uncalled-for demonstrations of excessive force tend to end the way that Kent State did. Conservative or liberal tags just don't seem to mean much when it comes down to this bullshit. I CAN tell you, from many police policy manuals, that full-auto weapons are NEVER brought to bear unless there is a REASONABLE suspicion that the bad-guys are likewise (or more heavily) armed. So, where was the REASONABLE suspicion? Oh yeah, I forgot, they are cuban-americans. I know that YOU don't feel that way, JW.... but the administration OBVIOUSLY does!

By the way, did you know that the miami family SWEARS that one of the officers said, 'Give us the kid or I'll shoot!'....... Excuse me, but THAT is not sufficient justification for shooting ANYONE (unless the kid were in mortal danger)! If I were the supervisor of these morons, I would have fired them already! I have no reason, whatsoever, to doubt the word of the family, since the head mediator stated that the ONLY people to lie (that he could see/hear) was the government! Once again, this particular administration has lost ALL credibility. Reno has shown, by her repeated actions, that she was NEVER qualified to hold the office.

I WILL address one thing, though. Police corruption and abuse have happened equally under liberal and conservative administrations. Witness the long, long, long time police abuses in Chicago, under a LIBERAL mayor! The BIG difference between the two, that I've seen, is that the conservatives tend to enforce the laws against these abuses and PUT THE ABUSERS BEHIND BARS when they are convicted. Right and wrong have nothing to do with political affiliation. As you can likely tell, this issue has gone way beyond any concern for Elian...... it IS all about how our government and law enforcement agencies treat our citizens. Do YOU think this ASSAULT-type raid was 'reasonable' under the circumstances?

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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 22:10:17 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Will you guys chill out a bit?
Message:
Fact: the Miami relatives thumbed their noses at the law and precipitated an otherwise needless potentially violent confrontation. The feds didn't know for sure what kind of resistance they'd encounter so they went in heavy. Whatever.

Fact: Elian belongs with his father. End of story.

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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 12:00:10 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I agree with Jim...
Message:
...for once.

I've read this whole argument, and basically, my opinion is that I don't have enough information to know whether excessive force was used or not. (I don't trust what Elian's Miami relatives have said after the fact). What I do feel strongly about is the fact that Elian has been used as a political football, both here and in Cuba. I have thought from the beginning that this was a no-brainer: Elian belongs with his father, and should have been returned to his father immediately. I've been horrified at how he's been used as a 'symbol' by the people in Miami - in my opinion, this is child abuse, which has been exacerbated and perpetuated by the media. It has seemed as if Elian's relatives in Miami care for him less as a person than as a symbol.

I have felt and still feel extremely sorry for Elian - I don't see how he can have a normal life after this, and I doubt if he's had any time to deal with the loss of his mother. The pictures of Elian with his father at Andrews were the first pictures of him I have ever seen where he looked genuinely happy and not stressed out. I hope he'll finally be able to have some time to recover and get back to being a child again.

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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 22:32:13 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, tell us to calm down by doing meditation.
Message:
I mean, we already know some techniques.....
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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 22:41:16 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: BWAH HA HA HA HA and no, Jim....
Message:
JW: Good one!

Jim: NO, that's NOT what happened according to the head mediator! The mediator, by the way, is a CLOSE personal friend of Reno's and he said the GOVERNMENT precipitated the whole thing. He stated, under no cicumstances was the 'family' thumbing their noses at the government or Elain's biological father. Remember, he was brought in by RENO to mediate. What the miami family wanted was due-process. Is there something wrong with that? They wanted assurances that Elian wouldn't be spirited out of america prior to the completion of that due-process. Is there something wrong with that? Not in my opinion. If we are going to bestow 'rights' on anyone that visits our shores, then it should apply to EVERYONE who visits our shores.

Does a 6 year old have any 'rights' in this country? Well, that's about to be decided in court, isn't it? I don't know that he is old enough to ask for asylum, but that isn't MY call. It's the court's call and they made that QUITE clear in their decision, didn't they?

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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 22:55:56 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Mike, you are confused.....
Message:
Because of the draconian immigration laws passed by your right wing friends in congress (and SIGNED by William Jefferson Clinton), Elian has few due process rights as a non-citizen and his (distant) family members exercised the ones he had and the INS has almost unlimited power, granted by that very same congress under Newt Gingrich and Trent Lott. The laws are designed to DEPORT people from this country who aren't here legally and there is almost no law to keep people here unless they committed a crime.

So, the state courts have NO jurisdiction over this and the courts ruled that. So, the law is he is returned to his father, who is entitled to custody under US law. The 11th Circuit said that the government has to consider his asylum application (from a six year old, it's kind of ludicrous), but that has nothing to do with custody.

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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 23:28:10 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: I'll buy the fact
Message:
JW: That those tougher laws were implemented by congress to try to stem the tide. I'll have to check the voting records to see how many 'liberals' voted for it...... I'll bet there were a bunch, but I'll check before I speak.

There IS, however, a certain 'discretion' that a law-enforcement officer has when actually 'enforcing' those laws. Especially when the particular violation is a misdemeanor. You probably know this already..... How many of us have been 'warned' instead of receiving the well-deserved traffic ticket? All it takes is a little humility and respect and it's a done-deal (unless someone got hurt, of course)!

Those 'draconian' immigration laws DON'T mandate the 'response' to a violation of those laws. They don't mandate the excessive display/use of force that was so evident in this case. THAT is the issue, IMHO. Even if it were a house full of illegals and not a single citizen in the group, it would be totally wrong to display/use that kind of force. We had a rather large raid on an apartment complex here in AZ. 90 percent of it's inhabitants were illegal aliens. IN NO WAY was THAT amount of force displayed or used to do the raid. Doors weren't kicked-in, property wasn't damaged and very few weapons were drawn..... NONE of which were full-auto. Jeez, JW, this crackdown brought in over 300 illegal aliens...... Despite the horrific 'odds,' no overt show of overwhelming force. In fact, they were treated with a great deal of care and respect. I 'watched' it; it was a block away from my house. So, why the difference when it's a cuban-american? Good question!

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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 23:44:17 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: I'll buy the fact
Message:
The laws don't MANDATE the force, but the strip the immigrant of any rights whatsoever to do anything about the fact that too much force is used. As we have seen, painfully, regarding police deparements in LA, Philadelphia, and I'm afraid, New York, when they are given blank check rights to use force, and no oversight whatsoever, more force tends to be used. It's kind of just human nature, unfortunately.

If you want a case study of a politician using immigrant bashing, and those kind of draconinan laws to get himself into office (and re-elected when he was very unpopular), I have two words for you: Pete Wilson, former governor of California.

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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 23:55:10 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: OK, then.....
Message:
JW: You said, 'The laws don't MANDATE the force, but the strip the immigrant of any rights whatsoever to do anything about the fact that too much force is used......'

YOU ARE RIGHT! That's why 'I' am talking about it! If 'we' see what we think is excessive use of force, then WE, as citizens of this country, have the responsibility to put those people on report and make them ACCOUNTABLE for it!

I don't care 'who' is being abused..... abuse is abuse! Shit, JW, if 'they' will do it to 'citizens,' then why should they stop doing it to illegals? If we can't get our own damned government to treat US right, how do we ever expect them to get it right for those who have no legal standing here?

I think we are basically looking at two different sides of the same coin, JW. You are 'blaming' the laws, while I'm 'blaming' the enforcers of those laws! Same coin.... different views of... he he he :-) It probably has something to do with the fact that 'I' have been on the 'enforcing' side. I tend to look at that side and make the most comments on it because that is where my experience lies.

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Date: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 05:55:49 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Mike, Mike Mike
Message:
The only reason why law enforcement doesn't beat up average citizens when they get in the way, is that they have the right to go to court and sue them for what they did. Illegal immigrants do not have those rights.

Moreover, in our haste to immigrant-bash, we have given, by law, the INS the rights to do things that ordinary law enforcement isn't supposed to do to us citizens, like lock us up without charges, etc. It's foolish to think you can rely on the goodwill of people who are given the right to police other people, and at the same time rewarded for getting convictions, and for the number of aliens rounded up and deported.

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Date: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 14:25:10 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: So what are you saying
Message:
JW: The people of this country can't run this country? If you favor a socialist government, you and I have nothing more to talk about. I DO think the people of this country can and DO react to negatives once they become aware of them..... NOW they are aware! We'll see what happens, no?
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Date: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 16:46:33 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Here's What I'm Saying
Message:
I'm saying the laws and regulations matter. You can't rely on the goodwill of the enforcers. In the case of illegal aliens, this country has been on a witch hunt for the past two decades, and it results in people getting hurt and their 'rights' abused. But see, illegal aliens aren't much of a constituency for politicians. They can't vote, they don't have any money, and a large percentage of the US population basically thinks they deserve what they get, and/or the US population is so uninformed, they don't even know it's going on.
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Date: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 17:09:06 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Who said anything about
Message:
JW: Trusting the 'enforcers?' I said 'trust' the public to see it done right. When they find out about excessive use/display of force, whether it was caused by an ill-conceived law or overzealous enforcement, THEY will call it into question and THEY will see to it that it is fixed. This isn't going to go away, obviously.

I DO agree that there SHOULD be as many democrats as there are republicans decrying the 'methods' used to retrieve the boy from a non-lethal/non-life-threatening situation. Why not? Why are most liberals turning a blind eye to an OBVIOUS overreaction? Rather than exclusively pick on republicans for calling it out, why aren't you pissed at democrats for NOT calling it out? Could it be that they are afraid of what this kind of repeated use/display of excessive force could hurt the chances for Gore?

OK, let's define repeated use/display of excessive force: (1) Waco, (2) Ruby Ridge, (3) Elian retrieval.

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Date: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 18:13:27 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Excessive Use of Force
Message:
I don't think the majority of people think it WAS excessive use of force. I know you disagree, but I think you are in the minority on that one.

Again, the point you keep missing is that force is being used excessively all over this country against the people least able to resist it. And, as I have said repeatedly, it is absolutely hypocritical for Trent Lott and Henry Hyde and their ilk to bitch about this on the one hand, and do everything to encourage the excessive use of force everywhere else. That was the point in my first, post about Giuliani and it remains my point. I guess that's all I have to say about this.

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Date: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 18:58:04 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Is that why Miami is shutting down?
Message:
JW: Because the average 'joe' doesn't think it was excessive? I think that you underrate the ire of the american public on this one. You are right, no one is really talking about the kid, it's gone WAY beyond that issue!
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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 03:12:00 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Is that why Miami is shutting down?
Message:
Right on, Mike. I heard Chicago was shutting down tonight and tomorrow Pittsburgh and Minneapollis are following suit. The word is that next will be Atlanta and Seattle. Yup, the groundswell is growing.
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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 22:45:53 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Don't bray at me, big boy
Message:
Mike,

The family wasn't going to hand over the kid. Ever. And can you blame them? Have you seen this little guy? Cute as a button! I wouldn't hand him over either, would you? Especially after that stealth haircut his cousin gave him last week.

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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 22:09:31 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Mike, WHAT are you talking about? (nt)
Message:
Nt
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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 22:53:20 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: JW, I was talking about.....
Message:
JW: Excessive display or use of force by both liberal and conservative administrations. Sorry, I was writing that while you were responding to my original post and it probably threw you.

It's the excessive display and/or use of force against our own citizens that I find so offensive. It isn't, nor should it be, an issue that is driven by political affiliation. Both sides have screwed-up and both sides have to stop it, NOW! In this case, it happens to be Clinton, Reno and cohorts/allies.

If I were in on a trial concerning the behavior of the officers involved (IF someone had gotten hurt), my first question would have been..... WHAT WAS THE BIG DAMNED HURRY? Everyone in the whole damned world KNEW 'where' Elian was, what he was having for breakfast and when he had his bowel movements. Why was it necessary to use THAT kind of force (and all of the danger that it created) to retrieve him from a non-lethal/non-dangerous situation? So where was the 'justification' for using that kind of force? If someone had gotten hurt, you can bet your ass that alot of folks would have had their butts in a sling. There was NO justification for a display of force of that magnitude.

Anyway, that's what I was saying and sorry about getting out-of-sync! he he he :-)

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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 02:49:48 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: The Crucible
Message:
Mike, JW:

I think both sides are mesmerized by the apparent connection between the 'purity' of their ideals or intentions, and the youthful innocence of a little boy. I should think that *we*, of all people, ought to know what that's about. What's really sad is that a tremendous opportunity has been lost here. The Miami relatives, mesmerized by their hatred of Castro and the purity of their conversion to Americanism, missed the opportunity to give a little to get a lot. They were never in the running for custody of Elian, but they had the public opinion on their side to negotiate a truly honorable deal of cross-national visitation and familial healing and understanding that would have backed the hated Castro into a corner, eventually. They could virtually have held him hostage, with a little patience and some strategy, and a willingnes to ask for the possible-but-difficult rather than the easy-but-impossible. It could have been the beginning of general rapprochement between the citizens of big Cuba and the citizens of little Havana. The administration could have played it cattily, to end up on the winning side... if the winning side were just a bit less 'pure' and a little more 'substantial;' and if the administration had been just a little less void of leadership. In a way it's yet another enactment of 'The Crucible.' Witches flitting all over the place. Can't you see them? It's an aspect of the American character that sometimes just looks gut-wrenchingly stupid to me. Sorry, didn't mean to interrupt.

--Scott

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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 22:59:44 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Oh, well I was talking about....
Message:
How the anti-immigrant republican party is mostly responsible for the draconian immigration laws that gave the INS the power to do what it did. And believe me, even after this, do you think Trent Lott will advocate changing the law to give immigrants more rights? Nope.
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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 21:53:15 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Get a Grip, Mike -- or a valium, or something
Message:
Cool your heels Mike.

I never once said I approved of what Clinton or Reno did. I don't believe I commented on that at all. I was only pointing to the hypocrisy of those who attack immigrants on a regular basis (like Haitians who are the wrong color), and imprison, attack and deport them on a regular basis, with no outrage whatsoever from those quarters, who are outraged about this situation. Of course, Elian and his mother whre the 'right' kind of immigrants, in the case Cubans fleeing Cuba.

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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 22:32:00 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Sorry JW, this one just really got me going!
Message:
JW: Under this particular circumstance, I don't care 'who' says it was wrong! It's wrong! The way it was handled was ALL wrong. This one 'should' cut across ALL political lines becasue it strikes at the very foundation of the relationship of 'the people' with their government. I mean, put yourself in the place of those that were wrongfully 'assaulted' by those jack-boot morons!

Actually, I don't hold the INS totally responsible (obviously).... they were just doing what they were told by Reno. If SHE didn't want that kind of raid to occur, you could rest assured that it wouldn't have happened. She was in on every single detail, of THAT you can be assured! In fact, she said she was.

I guess the reason I reacted SO violently to the 'diversion,' was that I want a real spotlight on this one! I don't care what 'our' respective political affiliations are..... it doesn't matter, at all. This kind of abuse has to stop.... NOW! This is NOT NAZI germany..... but by all accounts..... it may as well be. Obviously, the cuban-americans are to be dealt with very harshly! Who's next?

Don't get me wrong..... if they were KNOWN dangerous drug dealers (or whatever) or KNOWN to be heavily armed, I would have easily conceded the need for a dramatic show of force. Under any other circumstance it's TOTALLY unwarranted.

I don't want to get into a gun debate, but if you ever wondered why 'we' are so adamant about it, you just witnessed one of the MAIN reasons. Government abuse of the rights of citizens was one of the main reasons that Adams said what he said about the issue! Now, once again, we have dramatic evidence of his reasoning AND wisdom. Again, no debate and I'm not trying to start one on this issue..... I just wanted to let you know why 'we' get so intransigent about the gun-control issue and the government's intrusion into our 'possession' of same. I don't want 'them' to know..... it keeps them on their toes..... I really DO believe it keeps them 'honest,' too. But, that's just a personal opinion. I know it sounds 'paranoid,' but that isn't it, at all. Paranoia is not based on reality..... What they did to that family IS reality and it's happening just a bit too often to be called a coincidence! Anywho, maybe now you can understand one of the REAL reasons for all of the intransigence on the gun-control issue. Again, not a debate, per se, just a good example of 'why.' Did it help, or did it 'set you off?' :-)

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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 03:49:14 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: I'm getting really good at self torture
Message:
[Just a hook line. Rowing and indigestion don't go together.]

Mike:

I don't understand. How does one ensure conformity with the rule of law in the last resort if not by force? Mind you, it was very dumb, and also very typical, of this administration to not find some third way that wasn't being held in front of their face... but if it hadn't been now (absent such a blindingly clear revelation on the part of both sides) then it would have happened eventually. Think what might have happened?

The clear winner in all of this is Castro. Having read us very accurately, he 'messed' with us opportunistically. This wasn't all the administration's fault either. A good share of that blame belongs with that dopey community in little Havana that couldn't see the Virgin Mary if she had a red kerchief. Both sides get an 'F' as far as I'm concerned, and they've been played like banjos. No one deserves to be sitting on a high horse.

--Scott

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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 22:47:00 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Okay, I get how you feel, but.....
Message:
After Reno bent over backwards for weeks trying to negotiate with the family, who were, by the way, breaking the law and showed no signs of following it, what was she supposed to do?

And I raise my question again. If Elian was Haitian, who didn't have a fanatical, politically powerful, organized group of people marching in the streets on his or her behalf, do you think the government would have waited WEEKS, and negotiated with people breaking the law, before ramming the door down and taking that person? I don't think so.

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Date: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 15:11:32 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: If Elian were Haitian...
Message:
You can bet his little black butt would be back in the slums of Port Au Prince in a New York minute.

But Elian's just too cute.

Both you guys have valid points, though. I tend to side with Mike. This was a disgusting display of government abuse of power. And the Repubs are a bunch of hypocrites making political hay out of it, as JW pointed out.

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Date: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 18:39:39 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: If Elian were Haitian...
Message:
Yes, either back to Haiti or that hell-hole in Guantanamo Bay, where we sent all those Hatians the last time.

I don't think anyone is going to get too much political hay out of this except in South Florida, and those people aren't going to be moved by anything that gets said. All those pictures of Elian frolicking with his father have been a major PR victory for Reno.

Actually, I saw on TV last night Arlen Specter saying he was going to hold hearings generally on the activities of the INS, and not just about his particular incident. I am all for that. If this incident puts that police-state agency on display, there might be something positive coming out of this after all.

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Date: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 17:27:42 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: If Elian were Haitian...
Message:
gerry: You said, 'And the Repubs are a bunch of hypocrites making political hay out of it....' No real disagreement here. BOTH parties have been the 'lead' administration when abuses have occurred. So why isn't anyone calling out the dems for NOT decrying this obviously excessive display/use of force? Why are they so silent? The self-appointed 'activists' are remaining suspiciously quiet on the whole subject, despite the obvious abuse of power and total lack of good judgement displayed by the justice department. Why? Is it 'inconvenient' to bring attention to an operation that happened to be in the control of a liberal whitehouse as opposed to a conservative whitehouse? Of ONE thing I'm absolutely certain..... if it had been a 'republican' led operation, the dems would be breathing fire!

BOTH sides need to look at this and determine what went wrong, WITHOUT HEAVY FINGER POINTING towards a particular political point of view. It's MORE than obvious that something is wrong...... They need to find out what and why. There may be alot of disagreement on the 'why' part, but it doesn't hurt to look at everything. A 'forced' review is in order here and it looks like it just might happen. I hope BOTH sides will look at it squarely and see what can be done to correct it. It IS hard to legislate 'good judgement,' though.

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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 23:10:11 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Actually, I don't think there
Message:
JW: I don't think there would have been such a 'display' of force! It wasn't required WITH the group of people on the street, much less without a group. BUT.... if I was trying to give a particular 'group' of people a 'message,' THEN........

Sorry, but to me, this whole thing smacks of a very clear 'message' to cuban-americans and a cowtow to Castro. Why else the show of force? There is no other justification that I can see. All of the 'officer safety' issues were and are bogus. They weren't going in harms way and they KNEW it. JEEEZZZ, has everyone forgotten the Miami Police Lieutenant that went into the crowd alone and 'the crowd' protected him from some folks that 'might' have tried to do him harm? If those folks had really intended harm, he'd be dead! He had NO defensive position, whatsoever. Real danger for the INS guys? Not bloody likely. Remember, this happened BEFORE the court decision (when things were the MOST unstable) and BEFORE the raid. Again, I think this was nothing but a show of force to placate castro and to send a definitive message to cuban-americans.

Would 'I' be concerned if I saw that level of force used/displayed against a Haitian-American family under the same circumstances? Damned straight, I would! This stuff is all too Nazi-ish for my liking! In fact, it REALLY looked to me like the administration was 'thumbing its nose' at the Courts! THAT, I most definitely don't like!

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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 23:26:17 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Easy for you to say Mike....
Message:
What would you (and the press, and the republicans) be saying about Reno, if she sent in a couple of unarmed agents into the house and they got shot, or got trapped by the crowd with the kid in tow? It's easy for you to say that arms weren't necessary, but then you aren't responsible for the lives of those people, are you?

I don't like the use of force either, but my beef with Reno is that she should have returned the kid to his father in Cuba the day after they found him floating in the ocean, like they would have done with any Haitian immigrant trying to sneak into the country illegally. Then none of this would have been a problem.

But is was COW-TOWING to the Miami Cuban community, which most of the politicians in both parties have been sucking up to for years, because of Florida's electoral votes and their HUGE campaign contributions, that caused this problem. In fact, US foreign policy has been held hostage to those Cuban nuts for years. Stupid, illogical policies that pretend that Cuba is some kind of threat to this country. It's ludicrous and most of our allies, including Canada and Britain, laugh at us about it.

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Date: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 15:16:47 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Yup, yup, and yup....
Message:
But is was COW-TOWING to the Miami Cuban community, which most of the politicians in both parties have been sucking up to for years, because of Florida's electoral votes and their HUGE campaign contributions, that caused this problem. In fact, US foreign policy has been held hostage to those Cuban nuts for years. Stupid,illogical policies that pretend that Cuba is some kind of threat to this country. It's ludicrous and most of our allies, including Canada and Britain, laugh at us about it.

I think Castro would have been long gone if not for US policies. Jeez, JW, you've certainly gotten smart lately...

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Date: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 18:34:58 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Yup, yup, and yup....
Message:
I don't know if Castro would be gone, but Cuba would be a very different place, probably with lots and lots of US investment, and we wouldn't have had this long sorry history with the Cuban mafia in Miami -- everything from the Kennedy asassination, Watergate, Mariel, and now this.
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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 23:44:35 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: NO, it isn't easy for me to say
Message:
JW: I'm NOT talking about going into the home with SIDEARMS drawn. THAT would have been appropriate/prudent. Remember, JW, I was a cop and I was an academy deadly-force instructor (firearms and policies). I went through several advanced academies to acheive those qualifications. I'm STILL a fully certified deadly-force instructor for any police department that would find need of one.

If I, for a single second, thought that this level of force was necessary or prudent, I would have come down on their side without the slightest hesitation. There is a HUGE difference between going in with sidearms..... shotguns..... FULL-AUTO weapons. HUGE!!!!! To go in with full-auto weapons, as I said before, indicates that the bad-guys are HEAVILY ARMED! To go into a situation with a few unknowns justifies having SIDEARMS drawn. They KNEW that these folks WERE NOT heavily armed (to say otherwise is TRUELY laughable!). If sidearms were all that I'd seen in those photos, this discussion wouldn't have happened. THAT would have been a prudent 'display' of force.

I would still admonish the officer (as a deadly force instructor) for pointing his weapon at Elian..... Funny thing is.... if he'd been using a sidearm, it would have been easier to AVOID aiming it at Elian. So, once again, the danger of using the inappropriate level of force is in full view. Thanks god no one 'made a mistake!'

No, JW, it most definitely WAS NOT easy for me to say. I, beyond most others here, am FULLY AWARE of what it means to be in harm's way (both civilian and military). THIS was a case of major bad judgement and excessive display of force!

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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 04:11:22 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: NO, it isn't easy for me to say
Message:
Mike:

There is a HUGE difference between going in with sidearms..... shotguns..... FULL-AUTO weapons. HUGE!!!!! To go in with full-auto weapons, as I said before, indicates that the bad-guys are HEAVILY ARMED! To go into a situation with a few unknowns justifies having SIDEARMS drawn.

Perhaps you've studied weaponry and tactics, but I've studied ideology and the politics of unreason. In little Havana you are dealing with ideological zealots. They appear to be law abiding, but there is some uncertainty there. It seems to me that avoiding a shootout with a heavily armed group, however unlikely, would have been the paramount concern. The central area where the family resides would probably not have been the locus of such a force. If they existed they would have been somewhere close by, with concealed weapons. I think there are plenty of those around in the neighborhood. Perhaps I'm wrong, but it wouldn't surprise me. So, the key is to get in and out quickly... VERY QUICKLY, and the best way to do that and not meet with innocent but potentially time consuming resistance is to be REALLY INTIMIDATING. Hence the display (and not the use) of force.

I'm pretty sure that's the essential logic, and I don't find it extraordinary at all. The administration still gets an 'F'. Both sides played the game of politics very badly, and that's a game I take seriously. I'm insulted by their lame-brained behavior... but the fact that it's so *predictable* is what opens the potential for some really stunning strategy. And as David Brinkley so aptly pointed out, it ain't coming from this bunch.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 15:32:48 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: I understand....
Message:
Scott: I read all of your posts above (to this point in time) and you are right. There IS a fine line between 'prudent' and 'excessive,' especially when you are talking the 'display' of force. The problem I have is that the weapons (particularly IN the house) were inapproriate. To have a few guys 'hidden' OUTSIDE with M-16's would have been appropriate to avert any 'potential' outside disaster. To bring MP-5's INTO the tight quarters of a home (especially with buttstocks inplace) was REALLY BAD JUDGEMENT! Why? The actual 'chance' of an accident occurring go up astronomically! As an example, notice WHERE the buttstock was in the photo. Up and OVER the shoulder is NOT where it belongs. The lack of ability to control where the muzzle was pointing (assuming that the officer didn't intend to point it at Elian) can easily be attributed to this. It's fortunate that there was no mechanical failure or 'fingers' in the wrong place at the wrong time. The results of an accident would have likely been fatal! A 9mm sidearm would have been more than sufficient, prudent and alot safer in the in-home environment. In THIS case, law enforcement KNEW the layout of the home through the pictures of the inside of the home. Jeez, the papers and TV have been airing those pictures for weeks! The close-quarters alone would tell ANYBODY that the buttstocks had to go. The buttstocks CAN add accuracy when shooting long-range...... something the MP-5 is NOT good at doing. The ranges inside the house would have been 15 feet or less..... definitely NOT long range.

THAT is my point, Scott...... excessive DISPLAY of force (or escalation) is a dangerous thing to do. Especially when there is no real indication of a CREDIBLE threat.

If the threat were 'credible,' then why weren't the Miami Police armed 'that way' when they were left to deal with the after-effects. Instead, the PD felt no need to display anymore force than is appropriate for the ensuing mini-riot! Plastic shields, helmets, batons and sidearms....... Quite frankly, THEY were more likely to run into 'trouble' than the INS ever was.

This brings up another point: If the Miami Police wasn't let-in on the raid prior to its execution, then the INS KNOWINGLY left them in a very vulnerable position, right? I mean, if the INS felt the need to display MP-5's because of a non-existent threat, then WHY didn't they tell the Miami PD so they could break-out their full-auto weapons, too? The PD was MUCH more likely to run into REAL trouble, dealing with the aftermath, than the INS. Good question, no?

See what I'm saying, Scott? BAD JUDGEMENT and an OBVIOUS desire to DISPLAY excessive force. They sure looked mean, didn't they? I'm glad no one had to 'pay' for their desire to 'look mean.'

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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 16:08:35 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: I understand....
Message:
Mike:

I see what you mean about the buttstocks, butt wouldn't the weapons look less imposing... more like pistols? If I'm right, and for whatever reason (suppress photo ops, reduce overall kid-trauma, real or imagined threat from armed personnel) the point was to minimize delay then display was the essence of the operation... I understand your point about the potential for accidental disaster and harm (I think). Too bad they don't make squirt guns that look more realistic. Or perhaps something like those sportcar Corvette-like bodies they used to put over VW Bug Chassis.

At any rate, the chances of a situation like this, with the peculiar mix of innocents and political melodrama, coming up again some time in the next 50 years is almost nil. It's possible that, like the O.J. trial, we're being distracted by the atypical.

--Scott

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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 23:53:11 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Mike, with all due respect....
Message:
You are not in a position to know the facts to make that determination. You don't know what the situation actually was there, except what you've seen on television.

But my understanding is that what was done was SOP for the INS. They regularly batter down doors with guns drawn and throw people to the ground. They do it all the time. Just talk to an immigration lawyer, if you want to hear some horror stories. Since the immigrant has no rights, they can't do a damn thing about it.

Why do you think Selene's car and Selene were searched at GUNPOINT at the border, like she said? I guess you would agree that isn't appropriate either. I would hope you would become an advocate for changing the immigration laws and reigning in the INS. I am all for it.

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Date: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 00:21:02 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Not entirely true
Message:
JW: I have many contacts within law enforcement, to this day. I was aware of some things that were not on TV. But, I won't go there. Believe me, with the amount of time that transpired prior to the raid, they KNEW what they were up against. One way or another, they would KNOW. If they didn't, then they are truely stupid (and I don't think they were)! They had WEEKS to find out what was in that house and exactly WHERE it was. But, I'll concede that their 'intelligence' could have been TOTALLY FUCKED UP because that's what it would take for them to make a mistake that was THAT monumental! No, I don't believe that to be the case, at all.

As to your other point concerning SOP ops for INS..... Well, that ain't the way I've seen it! My 'raid' example was a case in point. While I haven't worked in conjunction with INS much (during my career), I can say that when I did, we NEVER went in with full-auto weapons UNLESS we KNEW that they were into the drug trade or some other activity that tends to generate violence. By the way..... IN EVERY CASE, we KNEW they were well armed AND, in fact, they WERE well armed. In every single case, JW. So, with WEEKS to figure it out, what went wrong here? There wasn;t a single firearm in that house..... NOT ONE! Nor were any found on folks in the street! So what gives?

Being held at gunpoint isn't normal. She, likely, answered the description of someone they were looking for. Yes, I agree that it can be disconcerting..... NO DOUBT! But, was she held with a full-auto MP5? I'm not talking about 'prudence,' JW, I'm talking about excessive display of force! Getting someone's attention and maintaining safety is one thing...... unecessarily scaring them shitless is another. You know, if an officer makes a mistake and shoots you once, you have a good chance of surviving (one-shot-kill statistics for any calibre available upon request). If you are shot with a Full-auto MP5, due to the trauma of multiple near-simultaneous explosive wound channels, your chances of survival are almost zero! A 'mistake' is MUCH more costly when you 'escalate' to an unnecessary level. Again, it shows bad judgement.

As to the changing of immigration laws...... YOU BET! I think there should be limits placed on INS in terms of it's use of force based upon it's apparent inability to use good judgement. I think the same applies to the attorney general's proven inability to orchestrate any form of raid. Three-out-of-three.... she's batting zero.

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Date: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 06:01:51 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: INS tactics
Message:
Mike, you haven't seen the way the INS works because you aren't an illegal alien, and until Saturday, their tactics haven't been shown on television.

And as for guns in the house in Little Havanna, well, as you know, we are awash in guns in this country, and guns could have been brought into that house in 10 seconds. Moreover, there were hundreds of people out front of the house, and any number of them could have a gun, legally I might add. So, in that case, it would have been absolutely stupid for Reno to allow those agents to enter that situation without being armed. And, frankly, over the past couple of days, I've seen an awful lot of support for what Reno did among the American public. I think most people feel she didn't have any other choice.

Those Cubans had no intention of turning the kid over. The great uncle character said several times that he would NEVER turn Elian over, even if ordered to do so by the Supreme Court. These are not rational people. They are fanatics. They are quite capable of using guns and violence of all sorts.

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Date: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 14:22:31 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Yes, JW, I have seen their tactics
Message:
JW: I'll say it one last time..... 14 years in law enforcement. 10 years in the fugitive squad (searching for known bad guys on warrants from other states and feds). As a fugitive squad member I had/have contacts within the FBI, US Marshals, INS and many police/sheriff departments. 25 years as a certified deadly force instructor 'instructor' (all 14 of my years in law enforcement included). Yes, I can 'make' instructors! TACTICS is what I teach, JW! I have most of the major policy manuals from those organizations and PD's and KNOW how they do their job (and why!) Don't tell me that I don't know this stuff. YOU only know what is said in the paper and on TV, not me. Man, that was insulting, JW. But I guess I shouldn't be surprised since I'm picking on one of your personal icons..... the scoff-law liberals in the whitehouse.

BTW, somehow Miami PD KNEW there were no firearms involved BEFORE the raid...... that's why they let individual police officers go among the crowd and in the home. So, why didn't the INS know? Bullshit, JW!

Your usual 'awash in guns' argument is a red herring. If the street in front of that house was 'awash in guns,' the Miami PD wouldn't have allowed any police officers to go into the home alone or go in the crowds alone..... END OF STORY!

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Date: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 18:21:06 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Jesus, Mike, get a grip again
Message:
Yeah, Mike, we all know what an expert you are on everything law enforcement. But my point remains, the INS, because of rather recent legislation abuses people on a regular basis, and I'm sure that isn't in the manuals. It's because their is no oversight and no recourse for the victims. That's my point. My point about you not knowing the particulars of the Miami situation stands. You don't know the details and neither do I, andl you shouldn't be insulted by that.

I have no icons in the White House. And I frankly don't understand how everyting with you is some kind of 'liberal v. conservative' rant. It isn't.

For your information, the Miami PD had NO authority over the INS raid and claims they didn't even know about it. Apparently you don't even reaid the newspapers. It was a FEDERAL operation. Again, you don't know if there were guns in the crowd and neither do I, and as you keep avoiding, Reno was therefore correct in assuming there COULD be guns there and the INS was armed accordingly. Again, according to the polls, the American people agree with her.

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Date: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 18:55:17 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: JW, I never said the Miami
Message:
JW: Police had any sway over the operation. The FACT is that miami cops KNEW there were no firearms in the crowd or in the home. Certainly not any that warranted an assault with FULL-AUTO weaponry. Thus, the PD's ability to frequent the area (individually) without much regard for their own safety (beyond possessing a service sidearm). The INS didn't possess this information? I think NOT! The feds will use any info that they recieve from a local PD and you can bet your bottom dollar that the INS ASKED for that particular info. Miami PD KNEW..... end of story! No, I didn't get that from a paper nor from the TV, ok? I have some very good friends (in the law enforcement community) there whom I care a great deal about, ok? 'I' have asked those questions, ok? Jesus!

As to the continuing insults hurled my way impuning my experience in this particular field..... what I said below stands. Yeah, I know that YOU know everything about everything, JW.... including my experience..... after all, you were with me through all of those years. I guess years of EXPERIENCE mean nothing, right? I guess YEARS of instructing mean nothing, right? I have been PAID to know what I'm looking at (you know, the stuff that's called 'evidence'). I was (and still am) vicariously responsible for every single academy grad that I taught and every single law enforcement officer that I requal'd. Yes, I've been called into court to explain that training and the particular department policies that I was responsible for imparting on any particular student.

As to the policy manuals: ANY cop will tell you that they are the bible and your only real legal protection if something goes wrong. If something goes wrong and you were following established procedures, then you (personally) are off the hook. If not, then you are fodder for the 'defense,' and rightly so! If these guys were doing something that wasn't in the manual, as you seem to assert, then they're stupid! There's no other explanation.

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Date: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 14:58:19 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: and, JW, you have earned
Message:
JW: A well deserved 'fuck you' for insinuating that I'm a liar! Sorry, I forgot to mention that in my post above. You can consider this to be pretty vitriolic, if you desire, but you deserve it. I've never questioned your teaching credentials, I've never impuned Jim's abilities as a lawyer (or that he's qualified to do so) or anyone else whose professions have been talked about here. You, on the other hand, just can't seem to stand it when someone seems to know more than you about a subject. Especially if they don't have the same political leanings as you. Well, spend as much time as I have in the law enforcement business (both doing, as well as instructing) and we'll talk. Until then, it is you that don't know what you are talking about.

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Date: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 18:22:20 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Mike, don't take yourself so seriously.
Message:
Sorry I engaged in this discussion with you. I won't in the future.
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Date: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 19:07:48 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: JW, I too am sorry! (please read)
Message:
JW: Yes, you are probably right that we should end the discussion here. Funny, I thought this was an issue about which we both might agree (to some extent, anyway).

One of the 'personal' reasons that this kind of unnecessary display of force gets to me is because it makes ALL law enforcement personnel appear to be a group of unthinking, bad-judgement, jack-boots! I kind of take that personally. I felt exactly the same way about the R. King beating! Not the slightest bit of difference. The average cop DOES follow the rules. The average cop DOES use prudence. The average cop DOES show restraint. To watch the US government condone this overreaction (by their own agency) just makes my skin crawl because I KNOW that it is against established policies and procedures.

I agree that NO ONE, whether a citizen or not, should be treated this way. But, if we condone this with our OWN CITIZENS, then how can we expect it to stop when it involves a citizen of another country?

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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 03:41:21 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: JW, I too am sorry! (please read)
Message:
Mike,
I think it's silly to compare the raid to get Elian with the Rodney King beating, which was a heated chase that ended with a group of cops losing control. The raid to get Elian was very controlled and little could have gone wrong unless someone interfered with force.

A couple of days ago someone appeared near that house and supported Elian being returned to his father. The crowd started roughing him up and the police had to whisk him away in a patrol car.

It would have been foolish for the INS agents to take Elian without being prepared for the absolute worse. There were heated passions in that environment.

It seems hypocritical that all of a sudden you're concerned with racism and too much fire power.

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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 14:54:38 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: EXCUSE ME?????
Message:
Powerman??????? '...It seems hypocritical that all of a sudden you're concerned with RACISM and too much fire power.' (emphasis mine)????????

EXCUSE ME? What have I ever said that was racist? When have I ever championed the racist cause? In fact, when have I ever NOT championed the eradication of racism within my personal realm of influence? Who the fuck do you think you are calling me a racist? Are you aware of my own biological background? Obviously not! So, tell me why you think that YOU have the unique qualifications to call me racist or to say, with any authority, that I'm a hypocrit in this regard?

Put up or shut up Powerman. I DEMAND an answer to the racism questions I posed above, you asshole! Righteously indignant? My ass...... I'm furious at your thinly veiled allegations of racism on my part!!!!!! Damned straight, I've found racism to be the single-most devisive issue in this country's history and have done whatever 'I' could do to eliminate it from my own sphere of influence. Would you like a breakdown of the promotion opportunities of my subordinates and their success rate based upon their race/sex? Go ask the US Navy, it's FOIA information and readily available!

Second..... the simple fact that I believe in the ownership of firearms as a 'right' in this country, doesn't mean that I approve of their inappropriate use or DISPLAY BY ANYONE, including police.

It isn't 'silly' to compare two cases of abuse of power, excessive force and display of same!

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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 16:32:20 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: EXCUSE ME?????
Message:
Mike,
Number one, I am aware of your biological background (someone on the Forum told me). Two, I'm not calling you a racist. I've just noticed other priorities you have that I think preclude being a champion against racism (generally, being a Republican). And thirdly, I don't have any unique qualifications to say anything about you.

But I think your pointing that out says more about you than me. Just what kind of 'unique qualifications' do I need, Mike? Should I be a super-duper, copo-soldier, general-ranking, top-o'-the heap mucky-muck? What I'm saying here, Mike, is that your reverance for authority is whacked out.

I'm just an ordinary guy making remarks based on reading years of your posts on this Forum. That's good enough for me. I wasn't expecting you to be pleased with what I said or to think it was well-founded.

But Mike-o-baby, I gotta call 'em like I see 'em. And you, Sir Super-Duper, High-Ranking, gun-totin', law-enforcing, constitution-ranting Republican got no place in my world to say anything about abusing firearms or racism. It's just a bunch of hot air.

What I read between the lines of your posts is a need for 'order', as in 'law and order'. What I read between the lines of your passion for the Constitution isn't a love of freedom but a love of Constipation. Pass the Milk 'o Magnesia, Buddy Boy, because you got a lotta packed poo-poo stuck up your recto-robo-super-copper butthole.

You may talk alot, Mike, but it doesn't cover up your real inclinations to squash the truth about where the real oppression is happening. It's always happened in the camp where you currently hang your hat. It happened there when slavery was legal in the United States, and it happened there when the Jews were killed in nazi Germany, and it happened there when the U.S. supported corrupt dictators in the third-world countries.

So take your bag of shit and sell it somewhere else, soldier. I don't think anyone is really buying it here. But maybe I'm wrong. Anyone?

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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 16:56:35 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: Fuck you, PA
Message:
PowerASS: You said, '...But Mike-o-baby, I gotta call 'em like I see 'em. And you, Sir Super-Duper, High-Ranking, gun-totin', law-enforcing, constitution-ranting Republican got no place in my world to say anything about abusing firearms or racism. It's just a bunch of hot air'

Well, thank the powers-that-be that I'm not a part of YOUR whacked out world of self-defeating, all-is-lost banality! Hot air? My ass.... I've actually DONE something about this stuff, how about you?

Let's correct the political record:

A REPUBLICAN freed the slaves.

A DEMOCRAT kept us from getting into WWII when we should have. A REPUBLICAN (Dwight Eisenhower) actually LIBERATED those camps and led the charge to get rid of the Nazi SOCIALIST party.

One of the biggest racist territories in the known world was dominated by DEMOCRAT governors (remember George Wallace? He was a DEMOCRAT! SO was EVERY OTHER governor in the south at that time!)

DEMOCRATS have been just as guilty of racist, heartless activity as anyone else. Actions speak louder than words and BOTH sides have made mistakes of a MAJOR nature. I, instead of running away from a political party, choose to stay and try to fix that which I think is wrong with it. YOU, on the other hand, choose to run away or pretend that your holy-democrats are a bunch of saints-in-suits. Again, FUCK YOU, PowerASS! If you are calling it like you see it, in my regard, then you need glasses!

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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 17:53:32 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Fuck you, PA
Message:
I like that, Mike... 'Powerass'. That's funny. Perhaps having a good laugh at yourself too, wouldn't do you any harm.

But you, my fair lieutenant, have it all wrong. I'm not categorizing your wrong thinking as eternally Republican. It's just that way at this particular time. I know all that stuff you nattered on about, but it's all just nattering. Doesn't really mean a thing.

There's always been people who really wanted to see freedom squashed because they were obsessed with responsibility and order. They talk about freedom but it's just a veil coverering their real desire for control and oppression.

I can't help it, Mike, I see it in your words. I hope I am wrong. I'd rather be wrong than have you being a bad guy.

I can't see it doing any good to debate all the small points. JW does that with you, and all I can see is that he's right almost every single time. Not necessarily about all the details because statistics can support anything. It's just about which side of the fence you choose to land on. And the side you land on always looks ugly to me. Maybe it was just the way you were toilet-trained.

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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 17:30:02 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: yes
Message:
I really wanted to make a case about this thing with my neighbor.
But she doesn't want to. I'm thinking they aren't legally married and she doesn't want to admit it, or something is wrong.
So I am respecting her needs but it is bothering me a lot.
The border issues here have been bothering me for a long time.
A few years ago, coming back from Penasco, we were pulled over and searched at gunpoint and then let go. No explanation. Oh well. I'm outta here.
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Date: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 12:14:07 (GMT)
From: john
Email: None
To: everone
Subject: what about the kid? nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 16:31:58 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: I would give everything I own
Message:
Remember this one? (Done by Bread, Boy George and 'N Sync and countless premie guitarist/singers in community satsang back in the pre-video era)

I would give everything I own
Give up my life, my heart, my home

(and my car, the one my parents gave me to make the grad school commutes, the old Dodge Demon, which the ashram supervisor dude asked me to give to another ashram on my first day of voluntary servitude. )

I would give everthing I own
Just to have you back again

(even if I had to beg borrow and steal to get to that L.A. festival, it was worth it, god damn it!)

You gave your life to me
Set me free, set me free

(well, technically I gave my life to him, but the Jesus implication here makes sense in terms of DLM theology)

Of all the years I ever knew
Those finer ones I spent with you

(yeah, good riddance to all those confusing years of jobs, school, and girlfriends: flush all that Maya down the toilet...THIS is the life!)

You taught me how to cry
I don't know why, just don't know why

(opened up the devotional floodgates, etc. etc. etc....and the 'don't know why' part...well, we loved the ignorance is bliss part of the trip, didn't we)

You told those lies to me
Set me free, you set me free

(Wait a minute!! We couldn't have sung this one! Could we have? Anyone remember?)

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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 19:01:15 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Five Best All Time Cult Songs......
Message:
Great, Gregg. I'm sure those words got changed somehow -- they usually were if the contradicted cult doctrine.

Remember that awful Kansas song -- 'All We Are Is Dust In the Wind?' It was the perfect 'beat-me-I-am-without-Maharaji' premie song. I remember it being sung at satsang.

Have you seen the movie 'High Fidelity?' I saw it last night and it's great. John Cusack is terrific and it catches perfectly the character of the nerdy-music-geek who knows all the trivial of popular music and thinks he's (it's ALWAYS a he) cooler than anyone else, but is actually a pathetic loser.

In tribute to that movie, here are my FIVE WORST ALL-TIME CULT SONGS:

1. Rock Me Maharaji and Roll Me Tonight;

2. Dance, Dance Dance by Rich Neel

3. Tunnel of Love by One Foundation

4. Satguru Has Come

5. The Lord of the Universe

By the way, I heard an interview with the guy who wrote the book 'High Fidelity' and he said he thought Let's Get It On by Marvin Gaye is the very best rock and roll song of all time.

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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 16:49:42 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: I would give everything I own
Message:
Give up my life my heart my home

(never mind that I had no life and No Home)
as for heart well that is ALL I had - too much of it so it had to be spread around )

yuck.

That's funny Gregg. OK. I'm weaning myself this is funny.
Break time Selene!!

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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 17:57:34 (GMT)
From: blood boils
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Waking up is hard to do.
Message:
But life is too precious to waste on things that aren't real.
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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 17:58:55 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: blood boils
Subject: you are someone I want to say bye to
Message:
Love you. Bye
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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 18:59:48 (GMT)
From: blood boils
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: waking up to the fact that M is a fat boy fraud
Message:
is what was meant. I know it sounds like premie-think vocabulary but the fact remains... life really is too precious to waste running the fat boy's labyrinth.

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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 19:22:27 (GMT)
From: blood boils
Email: None
To: selene
Subject: quick on the trigger Selene (nt)
Message:
sss
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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 19:50:38 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: blood boils
Subject: I meant that sincerely
Message:
If you are who I think you are.
I do love you and do mean a sincere goodbye. I'm hoping for a very long vacation from here.
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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 03:57:46 (GMT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: I meant that sincerely
Message:
Selene,
I am at bburke@rocketmail.com
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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 06:16:54 (GMT)
From: Raina
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: David Smith
Message:
It was shocking to be made fun of by Maharaji. But that only made me put my expectations in check. His arrogance was at least still honest. He was afterall always warning us that 'a game' was being played. Why would I be angry at him for that? To this day I still think of the neat ways of seeing things he opened my eyes to. Definately tools. Definately knowledge.

But when he questioned my honesty....in packed house no less...I simply saw the show for what it was....a busy man, who laughed at the minor detail of my life....that hurt.

I guess that's why religions with dead heads are so enormously popular. They (and their 'disciples') don't talk back, so can't put their foots in their mouths? How cool would it have been to forgive Jesus when he was alive?!

David Smith had been annoyed at me for sneaking into a session I hadn't been invited to in Spain in 1990(?). (Somehow that seemed slightly less insane than flying to Madrid penniless while being evicted from my NYC apt.) In his frustration he snapped at me that he would 'see to it that I never recieved knowledge!'

About 2 years later, in Miami, Maharaji from his stage, asked David in the audience, to take down the names of certain people he was calling on. People who were 'asking for knowledge' were raising their hands. Maharaji called on me, and I told him what David Smith had said to me in Spain years before. Maharaji's response was 'I don't believe it.' He made a joke about me '...asking for his watch, and getting the same response...' or something.
While the audience roared with laughter, I sat momentarily heartbroken. I left in a slight state of shock and strange loneliness.
A sweet man, whose name I've forgotten, came after me just to make sure I was ok....I was....and still am. I guess!
That was the third time, in those few days in Miami, that Maharaji had let me ask him a question, and the third time he made a joke at my expense. When he spoke directly to me, a distinct feeling was conveyed to me that he did not want me there. As if he were purposely trying to drive me away. But that also gave me a glimpse into his own misery, and the sort of prison he's built for himself. A prison made up of 1000's nut-jobs even moreso than me!

I would never hate Maharaji. I don't even have a problem with him. I think it's more the liars and backstabbers (and psychopaths) who fight to 'be near' him. In a way Maharaji's mean-ness towards me, was his own reaching out in a way wasn't it?

The man who introduced me to Maharaji committed the ultimate betrayal during one of those Miami 'daze' when he came after me (when I walked out after one of Maharaji's jokes) saying 'He's asked you to come back to talk to him! He wants to talk to you.' I hesitated at first, but then agreed to go back inside. Only to feel like the ultimate fool, realizing the 'premie' had lied to me. The most basic message of truth ignored? By 'a friend'. WHERE AM I' What could be more depressing? But again it's not Maharaji...it's the 'followers.'

Dignity is not always ego. Dignity is not always pride. Maharaji may simply be a bad judge of character! I feel sorry for him. But still appreciate (and cherish) more than a few wonderful thoughts, some crazy travels and this undying hope that one day people might actually hear each other speak. Which in turn would reduce all the chatter substantially.

I thought I was preparing myself for enormous things. After meeting Maharaji, I was introduced to artists in Hollywood who had affected my life profoundly. People I actually looked up to. I was having meetings at Capitol Records. I thought I was going to be a part of a consciousness that would restore oxygen to a dying world. But instead of realizing I was the one, me, who was making things happen, I gave credit to Maharaji- and trusted that I should look to him for guidance....I guess that's why I spent the last 10 years of my life ruined, broke, estranged from family and friends etc.........because I allowed myself to be distracted from me?
So now I tell myself this is all because I never really had any 'true' relationships in my life anyway.......and as much as I miss people sometimes....I'm afraid it's true. The 'deeper' I go the less I seem to have anything to offer anyone it would seem. I still don't know what to make of it.....but I do know more a joy inside. That I didn't know as well before.

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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 06:21:46 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Raina
Subject: Was that a laugh, or is it the way he farts?
Message:
Raina:

When he spoke directly to me, a distinct feeling was conveyed to me that he did not want me there. As if he were purposely trying to drive me away.

I'd have asked him to polish my obelisk. He clearly didn't get the joke, because he *was* the joke... and the whole world outside of the premie community has been laughing at him for years. Nothing is funnier than a caricature of wisdom, precisely because it's folly and irony at the same time. Look at it this way, you told him his mustache was on crooked. You're now above irony.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 18:26:11 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Raina
Subject: Thanks for posting Raina (nt)
Message:
no text
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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 16:30:53 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Raina
Subject: David Smith
Message:
I agree with Anon, David Smith is a truly sadistic person. He has/had serious emotional problems and desperately needed psychiatric help. I wasn't alone in recommending that to him on more than one occasion. It was weird, like Anon said. He would be viciously cruel to people who were vulnerable to him because of the authoritarian system Maharaji set up, and then when confronted, he would appear hurt and confused. He was truly nuts in a very frightening way.

But David Smith is just an example of what happens in an authoritarian system like Maharaji's. True, no one is pointing a gun at your head and forcing you to do things, but if you believe that your salvation, happiness, and purpose for existence depends on what Maharaji offers, and if you have to scale arbitrary, inscrutible obstacles to get knowledge, and to dedicate your life to Maharaji, sick people like David Smith use that system and the vulnerability it creates to get sadistic pleasure out of hurting people, and one is 'forced' to remain in that system taking shit.

I'm sorry you had to be one of the victims. But you are not alone, and it appears you have figured out what was really going on. All the best to you.

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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 16:25:41 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Raina
Subject: Boy, are you ever confused!
Message:
!) Big fucking deal about David Smith. The guy's a complete weenie. When I called him a couple of years ago looking for someone to get a message to Maharaji for me -- the message being 'come on and talk, asshole' -- Smith was a stuttering, confused little boy with his thumb stuck up his ass. Not only could he not answer any of my questions, he couldn't even talk, it got that bad. I ended up feeling bemused pity and disgust for him and hung up laughing. Maybe it's time you called him again yourself.

2) It's so funny reading people like Anon and Run intimating that Maharaji had anything of value to teach. He doesn't. He never has and never will. 'Knowledge' is fake. It's a superstitious hindu parlour trick and that's it. Maharaji deserves your animosity not so much because he embarrassed you in front of the rest of the cult but more because he was in your life at all, trying to fuck with your mind, trying to sell you a bag of fake jewels. Any enjoyment you might get by meditating on the techniques is a completely insignificant by-product to being ripped off.

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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 04:09:03 (GMT)
From: beaver
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Boy, are you ever confused!
Message:
It sounds like you are fucked by your own mind.
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Date: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 02:18:05 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: . . . a superstitious hindu parlour trick?
Message:
Jim wrote

'Knowledge' is fake. It's a superstitious hindu parlour trick and that's it.

Really? How could a reasonably intelligent guy like Jim be suckered into living in an ashram for six years by a cheap parlour trick? And why would he still be complaining about it 19 years later?

No, you don't deny what is not there. IMO Knowledge is the most real thing there is.

If there are any people interested in receiving K out there reading this, my advice is to find out for yourself what K is.

-- Deputy Dog

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Date: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 04:06:57 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: That's an atypically naive comment, Doggie
Message:
Why don't you ask how a reasonably intelligent guy like [you name it] believed that Maharaji was going to usher in the new Millenium at the Houston Astrodome in 1973. We got tricked, doggie. Even smart people get tricked, huh? Or didn't you know that?
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Date: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 05:35:37 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I'm talking about K here, not M
Message:
Jim,

You have this question in most of your posts. Is Maharaji fake or real? My question is, is Knowledge fake or real?

IMO Knowledge is the most real thing I know. It has an intuitive validity that speaks for itself. Knowledge is more real than any product advertised on TV, more real than any politician's promise, more real than any cultural trend.

Knowledge is the most real thing I know.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

-- Deputy Dog

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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 02:49:45 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Do you ever talk, or even think, about 'God' Dog?
Message:
You say , 'Knowledge is the most real thing I know.' Wasn't it supposed to bring you 'God realization?' So did it Dog? How does that play out in your 'real' life. Is your wife less real than 'Knowledge?' How about your parents? Do you have any children? Does anyone in your 'real' world read what you're posting here? Or is that why you remain anonymous?

From a Dan Winter's site on what maybe should be happening through meditation and other practices:

-This internal process is based on embedding fractality in the DNA by the realization of infinite compassion. Literally, the oldest trick in the book.
-By meditating on compassion, feeling the feelings of all beings, DNA is braided into more complex and coherent patterns.

Consciousness expanded through compassion, but of course it's not that simple. This type of growth requires a quality of consciousness which is compassionate. This seems to be where many are getting stuck, particularly in such a hypnotically materialistic time. 'Love thy neighbour as thyself.', Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.' are two obvious examples of the key, but they again, are much easier to preach than to practice. The ultimate challenge always seems to me to be how the 'theory/talk'is practiced. How do you make your choices in the 'real' world, and about what?

m said 'This breath is my Bible, my Gita and my Koran.' He is blasphemous hot air. I don't know how to describe you as one of his devotees who encourages others to follow his 'divine'(!!!!!) inspiration. As far as I'm concerned one thing you are is an exhibitionist who's into public mental masturbation.

Stonor

P.S. What you compare 'Knowledge' to is a joke. Anything is more real than that list - even you.

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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 19:38:26 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Do you ever talk, or even think, about 'God' Dog?
Message:
You say , 'Knowledge is the most real thing I know.' Wasn't it supposed to bring you 'God realization?' So did it Dog? How does that play out in your 'real' life. Is your wife less real than 'Knowledge?' How about your parents? Do you have any children? Does anyone in your 'real' world read what you're posting here? Or is that why you remain anonymous?

Wow Stonor,

Seven questions! I don't mention God all that much because I'm agnostic. I don't know if there is a God.

Knowledge gets me in touch with my real Self, the Self that came before all the conditionning. Without me i.e., my being, there is no wife, parents, children. In fact Self is all there is. When I die the world ceases to exist (for me that is).

You are entitled to your opinion. It's just that you talk a little uppity for someone who never received Knowledge. If I'm an exhibitionist who's into public mental masturbation, just ignore me, maybe I'll go away.

Oh yeah, has it ever occurred to you that God is dog spelled inside out.

-- Deputy Dog

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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 20:31:12 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: LOL !!! I'll ignore you now, and hope you go away
Message:
That's the best advice you've probably offered anyone. All that Knowledge, and no knowledge of God? (by the way, most learn in adolescence that 'God' is dog spelled BACKWARD - something seems to have turned your brain inside out. Must have been the post-Knowledge conditioning.)

And I LOVED this one: 'It's just that you talk a little uppity for someone who never received Knowledge.'

It's just that what??!!! Too funny!

Stonor

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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 22:52:16 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: PS: I thank God I never got Knowledge! (nt)
Message:
PS: I thank God I never got Knowledge! (nt)
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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 21:26:58 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Whatever happened to 'I can show you God...
Message:
face to face.' (quote of Guru Maharaj Ji's) ???

So you are saying that Maharaji did not show you God after all.

And what about his claims to be God in human form?

You are calling him a liar, or an inside-out dog.

'Knowledge gets me in touch with my real Self, the Self that came before all the conditionning. Without me i.e., my being, there is no wife, parents, children. In fact Self is all there is. When I die the world ceases to exist (for me that is)'

You are confused if you think that your self awareness is all there is. You seem to think that your individual awareness is the Self that you're not even sure exists (you said you are agnostic). Others' existence is not dependent on you. When you die, when I die, guess what? The world will continue. Face it, your awareness is limited.

Personally, I believe there is a Truth, but I don't claim to know what it is. The statement 'In fact the Self is all there is.' is an over-simplification. The next time you cross a road, try pretending the cars aren't there, just cross it. You wouldn't do that, would you?

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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 08:28:36 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Stonor
Subject: Please explain
Message:
'This breath is my Bible, my Gita and my Koran.'

What's so blasphemous about that?

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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 20:50:22 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: the breath
Message:
The breath is not the Creator nor is it awareness. Breathing is a physiological process. Breath meditation can be a useful technique, a bridge, but awareness of the breath is not the goal. Also, it is not a substitute for ethical teachings. Rawat makes it out that the breath itself is divine, which is an old superstition. People thought/think that life is contained in the breath. This is clearly false.

Ditto for the other techniques.

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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 21:40:37 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: G
Subject: the breath
Message:
And just how long can you hold your breath? :o)
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Date: Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 00:39:59 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: How long I can hold my breath
Message:
Well, I just held my breath for 1 1/2 minutes. Years ago I held my breath for about 3 minutes. While I was holding my breath, I did not die and was fully aware.

Breathing is a required process for human life, but that does not make it the same as life. But that logic, you could say that water is life, that food is life, that your heart pumping is life, that taking a crap is life, etc.

So, the next time you are taking a crap, meditate on it.

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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 20:01:05 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Please explain ... it's all hot air???
Message:
He values the Bible highly???

Is that how he claimed :

'I swear on the Bible I will establish peace in the world'

???

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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 12:45:28 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Sure
Message:
Is he not suggesting to his followers, that the breath/k supplants and supercedes all inspired works which have been devoutly written, preserved and transmitted through millenia by saints and sages? Is this not contempt of sacred things?

Stonor

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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 17:42:45 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Stonor
Subject: Sure
Message:
Contempt? Hardly.

He values the breath highly and compares it to something else he values, meaning the scriptures and the inspired writings of sages. Simple.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 20:07:05 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Sure - simple-minded (nt)
Message:
Sure - simple-minded (nt)
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Date: Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 09:40:19 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Stonor
Subject: Sure - simple-minded (nt)
Message:
OK, smartie. Try to grasp this.

He didn't compare the breath to a paperclip, or a golf ball, or to a Coke bottle. He compared it to the Bible, the Gita and the Kuran instead. To something of value, not something worthless, get it?

Nope, I didn't think you would.

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Date: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 06:11:05 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: I'm talking about K here, not M
Message:
Then can 'knowledge' stand without M?

If you can sense an 'intuitive validity' in knowledge, why would you need M in any way?

Why do so many premies flock to see him? Why doesn't he just publish those techniques in a book and let people see for themselves the 'intuitive validity'?

Why the commandments and rules? Why keep in touch? Why the triangle? Why trust in M?

I don't believe one can practice knowledge as M outlines it without surrendering her/his autonomy to him.

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Date: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 14:49:03 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: I'm talking about K here, not M
Message:
Daneane, you ask,

Then can 'knowledge' stand without M? If you can sense an 'intuitive validity' in knowledge, why would you need M in any way?

I need M for inspiration. There aren't too many people out there talking about the experience of Knowledge, if you haven't noticed.

Why do so many premies flock to see him? Why doesn't he just publish those techniques in a book and let people see for themselves the 'intuitive validity'?

Premies like him and there has to be a thirst for K to work.

Why the commandments and rules? Why keep in touch? Why the triangle? Why trust in M?

You call three sentences commandments? There aren't too many rules compared to where I work. Keeping in touch is fun.

In a church why isn't everyone the minister?

I trust Maharaji because when it comes to the experience of Knowledge, he knows what he is talking about. Sure there are lots of people out there who know about astral bodies, chakras ect. but to my mind, that stuff is just spiritual materialism.

I don't believe one can practice knowledge as M outlines it without surrendering her/his autonomy to him.

One can very easily practice knowledge as M outlines it and keep his/her autonomy. All he asks is that we:
- give Knowledge a chance,
- keep the techniques to ourselves, and
- stay in touch with a video a week.

You think that's oppressive? That's nothing! My wife is a recovering Catholic and she tells me that compared to what she had to do as a kid, what M asks is nothing.

What were you saying about autonomy? I can read whatever I want, eat whatever I want, wear whatever I want, vote however I want, live wherever I want, give money if I want, meditate if I want, smoke if I want, drink if I want, the list goes on.

No, IMO all in all Knowledge is a good deal.

-- Deputy Dog

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Date: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 15:47:03 (GMT)
From: Daneanen
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: I'm talking about K here, not M
Message:
I appreciate your answers to my questions Deputy Dog. They touch on something I have been thinking about lately...belief in M as compared to belief in God; that is, the traditional christian religion of god. Yeah, yeah, I know, M is not religion. However, from what I saw at video events, the devotion involved seems quite similar. M for inspiration.

He doesn't seem to be asking just to inspire people. In so many of the videos I watched as an aspirant he seemed to be establishing his masterfulness - his superiority, and others submission. In Catholic masses, I never recall a priest asking anyone to trust in him, but trust in their relationship with god. Their holy trinity did not include themselves.

I am not religious, and I have plenty of questions of them as well; but that's a different board. What I wonder about lately is what difference there is really. I mean, if joe schmo believes in jesus and jane crow believes in M; if their beliefs are true and loyal, is that necessarily a bad thing?

I think of it does not go to an extreme, then no, not really.

It doesn't change how I feel though; that they are selling themselves short. I studied M very sincerely. I thoroughly wore out a copy of a book of his quotes and spent a lot of time thinking about it. What I cannot digest is the leap. The leap of faith, the leap of trust. Yes, you can decide to see things in a certain way or decide to just be happy.

I just don't believe that is a very realistic decision. To be childlike. Children are full of wonder yes, but they are also terribly naive. Children when faced with conflict, have no experience from which to weather the storm in a mature manner.

My questions have been within M's paradigm. They are only but an aspect of the whole thing. What he says strikes me as very different from what he does. What others do in their desire for 'inspiration' from M strikes me as very unquestioningly devout; which to me, is very dangerous. I saw this as an aspirant and I saw M doing nothing to correct it.

After the satellite broadcast from India, I commented to my premie friend about them seeming to worship M rather than what he was saying; to look within. Yet as I continued to watch videos, they seemed to encourage this very thing...shots of M looking thoughtful; him up in a big commanding chair high on a stage.

It just doesn't strike me as mere inspiration.

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Date: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 17:20:21 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Daneanen
Subject: I'm talking about K here, not M
Message:
Hi Daneane,

I've noticed how most premies are very unsuccessful in enjoying life with Knowledge. Many of them just think and think and then fall asleep in meditation time.

The grat Knowledge is not what it's made out to be. It for many is just a quiet time to get their thoughts in order for the day and nothing very cosmic or wondrous. They often live without much inspiration in their lives and can only end up begging for a chance to see Maha.It to me seems that premies become disempowered human beings. Lots of inadequate sad cases involved with it.

There are exceptions to that of course but just my observation over many years involvement.

Love Hal

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Date: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 15:35:19 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: What about Satpal?
Message:
Dogg,

You're an open-minded kind of guy, right? Think about this. By sheer coincidence, both Prempal and Satpal fly in to LaGuardia at the same time. They each have a small welcoming committee. The two groups bump into each other .....

Talk to me, Dogg. Talk to me.

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Date: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 20:17:39 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: BWAH HA HA HA HA HA HA!
Message:
Jim: GOOD one! Shall we call airport security now or after the carnage? :-)
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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 19:18:15 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Boy
Message:
Actually, what I said to her was:
'I don't think you have to hate M (altho I don't think you don't either), but why leave lingering credit to him. If you feel something, it is yours, not M's.
It sounds like you know this but it hasn't processed through all the way yet. Why try to make excuses for M? Be thankful you are out of there, but I wouldn't try to rationalise away M's own role in messing up your life. I think we are pretty insignificant to him. It's my opinion and you're welcome to your own. (emphasis added)

Does some rock star love everyone who buys a CD? They might but they love the cash a lot more.

Good luck. Hope you stick around.'

Just because I meditate and enjoy it is no reason to say that I've 'intimated that Maharaji has something of value' (paraphrased). Whatever I got out of it isn't something I credit M for.

She's found her way out. Most people do. It's up to them what they want to take with them. A lot of people still meditate and know M has nothing to do with it. In her case, it sounds like she left prior to initiation. If she wants to meditate, she should learn if she wants to. I'm glad for her that she was able to extricate herself. It's her confusion which is hopefully insignificant at this junction, not the meditation.

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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 20:58:42 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Why not give him credit, Run?
Message:
Just because I meditate and enjoy it is no reason to say that I've 'intimated that Maharaji has something of value' (paraphrased). Whatever I got out of it isn't something I credit M for.

If I thought that I'd still be a premie. Either the Knowledge is real or it's not. Which is it?

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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 21:59:56 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, a question....
Message:
Do you think it's possible someone might get some benefit from meditation? I know some people say they do. I can't say it ever benefitted me, but some people say it calms them down, helps relieve stress, helps with depression, etc.

But I'm willing to say that meditation might be beneficial, but the meditation M offers is no 'better' than TM, or some mediation you could learn at your Yoga Center, or stress-reduction class.

What is truly a fraud about Maharaji, is the promises he makes about practicing knowledge and the lies he spreads about the significance of practicing the mediation techniques.

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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 22:16:02 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Jim, a question....
Message:
Joe,

I think meditation can be a nice, relaxation tool like a white noise generator. However, I don't think there's any 'higher consciousness' inside waiting to be released by these or any other techniques.

What bothers me is when ex's seem to maintain some undue respect for 'Knowledge' as if it really does unlock a doorway to an inner world. You know, some people argue that Knowledge does all that but that Maharaji has merely unfairly taken too much credit for midwifing their spiritual rebirth or something. I say that if they think that way they might as well send him the odd thank you from time to time. Why not?

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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 22:40:23 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: This may be a little incendiary, but......
Message:
Okay, this is my prejudice so take it for what it's worth.

I think the Maharaji cult attracted a lot of people who thought they were kind of 'spiritually advanced.' Even though the cult was built on the rule that you had zero value beyond what Maharaji decided to throw your way, I think some people held onto that. I know we all knew people like that in the cult, and were often received abuse from them.

So now, although they don't want to follow Maharaji anymore because they think he's a 'bad master,' they still hold onto the 'spiritual identity' in some way. So, from that you get the idea that 'knowledge' has some kind of 'spritual' or 'consciousness' value, but Maharaji doesn't. I mean, if it was all a TOTAL fraud, how could a 'spiritually advanced' person like that, ever fall for it?

Isn't this the mindset?

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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 23:50:11 (GMT)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: This may be a little incendiary, but......
Message:
No, not always. Please JW don't be narrow minded, it is NOT that simplistic.

Well, I too have detected some of that attitude from people but I don't think everyone who seeks to redeem some good from their experiences with M, is quite so arrogant or shallow thinking. Are we to become so cruel to as judge people badly too, for no reason???

Speaking for myself, I can say that any feelings that I have that meditation still has some value are not because I need a 'spiritual identity' - absolutely far from it - and may I suggest that it is by no means constructive to tar everyone with this brush who comes here and proclaims some appreciation of meditation.
Sometimes it is nice to meditate for the very simple, innocent, harmless reason that it feels nice.
As you may detect I feel that it is very rash to assume that people are motivated for all the most shallow reasons from the outset.

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Date: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 06:24:11 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: This may be a little incendiary, but......
Message:
Anon,

As I have said repeatedly, including in this thread, I can understand people appreciating meditation as something, as you say, that 'feels nice' (if it does). It's when some kind of significance beyond that, something in the realm of spirituality or higher-consciousness coming from it that causes me to have that reaction. And, frankly, I think that comes not because any such quality exists, but because of the value that a person places on it, based on some kind of spiritual belief system, even if it isn't Maharaji's, and, yes, a spritual identity, in a way.

So, I'm not clear on your point. If you don't attach anything beyond meditation 'feeling nice,' which is no different than what TM or meditation taught in a stress-reduction class would likely do, what, exactly, do you feel appreciation towards Maharaji, about? You can gleen 'something good' from absolutely anything -- from virtually any experience in your life, and I'm all for people salvaging anything they can from their time in the cult. That's fine with me too.

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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 06:47:57 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: This may be a little incendiary, but......
Message:
JW, Anon:

Well here's my gasoline to add to the fire. I pretty much think that Knowledge does have a higher significance. Basically I think human consciousness, and cognition, is *structured*. How it got that way, I don't know. I might guess, or give my best opinion, but I don't know. At any rate the experience we call Knowledge is somehow a reflection of that structure of human cognition. It's the 'way we be.' It could have larger significance, but only within a larger *known* strategy... that seeks to match our capacities with our ideals. In this sense it's a very pedestrian mechanism. And that's only if it's an *accurate* reflection of human cognition, rather than some interesting distortion. I tend to think it's weird rather than divine, because it's hard for me to imagine God being as boring as watching paint dry.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 10:17:16 (GMT)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: This may be a little incendiary, but......
Message:
So, I'm not clear on your point.

My point (in my initial response to your post) was simply that it would be simplistic to assume that everyone who claims to appreciate meditation is driven by a self-important need to maintain a 'spiritual identity' .
I am sorry if I seemed to suggest that your views were narow-minded about this; my reaction to your post was more to point out how bigoted it would be to assume that all people who interpret their experiences as 'spiritual' are all so shallowly motivated.

I also sense that, in this thread, there is some confusion as to whether Runamok and myself accord appreciation to Maharaji for our feelings about meditation, and what our motives are for continuing the practice, however occasional. I think Jims professional modus operandi may have spurred him to attempt to force a confession, on this matter, from myself and Runamok.
In our answers we confess that we hold that 'feeling good in meditation' has some value. However we remain innocent until proven guilty, of paying deference to 'Mumbo-jumbo'.

If you don't attach anything beyond meditation 'feeling nice,' which is no different than what TM or meditation taught in a stress-reduction class would likely do, what, exactly, do you feel appreciation towards Maharaji, about?

I am puzzled how anything I have said here should lead you to believe that I do feel appreciation to him. I suppose you must have read what I wrote, but I fail to see where you get this from. Would you mind telling me what I said that gave you this idea as I am frankly curious?

I have no objection in principle to anyone feeling gratitude for something that has actually benefitted them in some way. What I do object to is that people are urged to feel indebted as in the case of Maharaji. My sense of gratitude towards Maharaji for whatever part, small or large he may have accidently played in my grasping what I consider to be ' a nice feeling' is of course highly tempered, to the point of being overwhelmed, by a sense of indignity at having been ensnared into a cult. I certainly feel I paid dearly for any good I might have gained.

I can understand people appreciating meditation as something, as you say, that 'feels nice' (if it does). It's when some kind of significance beyond that, something in the realm of spirituality or higher-consciousness coming from it that causes me to have that reaction. And, frankly, I think that comes not because any such quality exists, but because of the value that a person places on it, based on some kind of spiritual belief system, even if it isn't Maharaji's, and, yes, a spritual identity, in a way.

Well, I make no assumptions as to the significance of what I feel in this department, other than I can get quite high off it. Occasionally I sit and do the nectar technique and the word one and get a good , comparatively natural (I hope you'll agree), high. When I used to do it very earnestly I got frankly, even better results. I too would wax poetic trying to describe how I felt. That is why I, to this day, have plenty of sympathy for those who are tempted to attach all kinds of fanciful ideas in their attempts to describe their feelings.

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Date: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 19:29:20 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: This may be a little incendiary, but......
Message:
Well first, I'll say it again. I never said that everyone who appreciates meditation does so for purposes of spiritual identity, or even that all such persons even think it has anything whatsoever to do with spirituality. So, I don't disagree with you on that.

And as to those who interpret their experiences as 'spiritual,' again, I don't lump everyone into the 'spiritual identity' motivation, but my observation is that it exists, and likely existed to some degree and at some time or another, in just about everyone who was a premie, because the whole cult had an overlay of supposed spirituality, and because Maharaji blabbed on that we had been revealed the purpose of life. He also repeated a lot of Hindi mumbo-jumbo, especially stories. It was a tendency or a characteristic I was pointing out, and I didn't intend to imply that it was universal, but I think it is a phenomenon among ex-premies, in my opinion, a carryover from cult programming.

I am puzzled how anything I have said here should lead you to believe that I do feel appreciation to him.

What lead me to believe that was that you claim to enjoy the meditation techniques and you got them from him and you say you are grateful for that. And if you don't attribute any overridiing spiritual significance to the techniques, if it is just a 'feel good' kind of thing, it isn't clear to me why you would feel that way.

And maybe it's not appreciation or gratitude so much as attributing to Maharaji some kind of charisma, having powers or opportunities that he is blowing, or something more in that nature. I have always gotten the impression that you dislike what Maharaji did to you, that you are certainly no fan of his, but that your reaction is more disappointment rather than discovering what a fraud he is. Personally, I have never felt I got much out of meditation, despite doing it consistently for 10 years, and I have no desire to do it now, so I don't even have that to put on the positive side of the ledger. I found that when I took up running that it was much more 'meditative' and pleasurable than the meditation I used to do. And if I wanted to do meditation, I think I would choose some other techniques unassociated with Maharaji. I think you would get the same results, without the threat of baggage.

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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 09:49:44 (GMT)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Why I still meditate once a month.
Message:
JW wrote:
And maybe it's not appreciation or gratitude so much as attributing to Maharaji some kind of charisma, having powers or opportunities that he is blowing, or something more in that nature. I have always gotten the impression that you dislike what Maharaji did to you, that you are certainly no fan of his, but that your reaction is more disappointment rather than discovering what a fraud he is. Personally, I have never felt I got much out of meditation, despite doing it consistently for 10 years, and I have no desire to do it now, so I don't even have that to put on the positive side of the ledger. I found that when I took up running that it was much more 'meditative' and pleasurable than the meditation I used to do. And if I wanted to do meditation, I think I would choose some other techniques unassociated with Maharaji. I think you would get the same results, without the threat of baggage.

I personally find running a little torturous but it seems one of the best ways for me to get fit which is a shame. I suppose, at a stretch, I could just about describe my experiences of running along the hills near where I live as 'meditative' but 'penance' is the word that springs to mind. Such excertive activities do certainly give me a pheromone high, but I would not put my 'static' meditations in exactly the same category nevertheless.

Maybe, as you say, it could be helpful for some people, who are sick of the association with M, to choose to do some other techniques unassociated with him. I don't know. I have found that the association with, not only him, but the other generally more regrettable aspects of my past, has indeed been a problem.

It isn't so much of a problem now though. Taking time out from the whole thing and talking about my experiences here has largely cured me of my neurosis. To some extent I share your lack of desire to do it so much now anyway, so it's no big deal. I am not about to go trying different meditational techniques. The reasons are:

i) Lack of time -I've got other things I want to do with my time now. It is very time consuming.
ii) I can't imagine that they'd be any better than these Yoga one's (ie. stopping up your senses seems a good start, if you want to cut out the world.)

I appreciate that you feel that you got little out of meditation despite doing it consistently for 10 years. Meditation was something I got quite a lot out of actually- even before I received knowledge. As I said, my gripe was really about the baggage you mentioned which went along with it and that was 'sold' as a necessary lifestyle , belief system etc.

Maybe the fact that I did some similar meditation before I received knowledge (I saw light and felt 'uplifted' long before I even heard of M) has helped me to not entirely associate my experiences with M as much as some do. I have always considered that a major part of the 'goodness' of meditation for me was the intention or sincerity which I put into it. It's hard to explain this, but as a child I was used to prayer, and meditation sort of took over this role, or perhaps, became an extension of that supplicative practice.

Even though now I seem to have metamorphosed into a being who is more or less resigned to fate, in my youth meditation was a time of prayer where I entreated 'God/my creator' (not Maharaji at first) to influence my destiny, and to 'raise me up' so I could better see the scheme of things. In short, since I was at the start of life, I was keen that if God existed (as I believed he did) , he should take control then and inspire me to a course in life that would be purposeful and fulfilling. I was driven on the other hand with the usual prospects of mundanity that lay before such as myself.

I had aspirations as a musician and artist and felt strongly that the most valuable expressions I could hope to offer the world would at best have some divine inspiration. Maybe my youthful enthusiasm was at that stage largely influenced by my diet of mescaline, marijuana and religion. I don't know, but meditation was for me imbued with all my hopes and good intentions and was by no means just a bland 'feel good' practice.

As an adult I already observe in my 3 year old daughter, the innocent beginnings of similar natural inquiry into the reasons for existence and it is a force to be reckoned with for a parent. It is hard to find a satisfactory reply to a child who asks where a loved dead pet has gone etc . It is clearly hard for her to proceed in life without some re-assurance on such matters and not easy for a sceptic parent to offer satisfactory or real consolation.

I do see that the meditation, the knowledge, was a big part of the 'scam' in that one's experiences in meditation 'softened one up' for the programming.

I can understand your's and Jim's abhorrence of it, since it clearly played such a key role in the brainwashing. I can also understand your suspicion of the motives of myself and other so-called 'exes' who claim to still dabble in or continue such practices since it must appear to be not only conceding some 'appreciation' to Maharaji but also be possibly continuingly self-delusory. I confess that I am reluctant to totally abandon any faith I may once of had that there is a kindly superior power tending my soul, but I am certainly in no danger of becoming settled in my opinions and would imagine that I am effectively more or less of a 'humanist' nowadays.

It can obviously be an important step towards breaking the spell, to stop doing the meditation.
Because meditation is often something that people did particularly value, it is possibly one the hardest things for them to renounce. (notwithstanding that meditation clearly became for many, over the years, less of a healthy habit and more of an addiction which strengthened their denial of reality).

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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 22:49:15 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Bingo!
Message:
Yes, Joe, I'm with you there. My only caveat is that I think a lot more of us played that spiritual ego game than didn't. I mean, I myself never did but most guys did. Lots of the girls did too.

(Get that Stonor?

Girls!

) :)
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Date: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 03:33:29 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Almost missed it - Oh BOY, I'm glad I didn't!
Message:
Thank Whatever-It-Is (nah, it was some computer technicians) that my server finally got up again today.

(Look at what a nasty tit-for-tat mudslinger level this place is dragging me down to !!! Is this really what you want, boy? I thought you had higher aspirations - you must have been a real pain in elementary school, and I can imagine you right in with 'duh boys' who hung out in the back hall of our highschool to tease the girls as they came in - hey maybe I should go check my annuals for your name!)

But you know, it does have a lot to do with context Jim, and I'm sure you're aware of that - remember it was JB's 'sweetie' this and 'nasty Jim' that that set me off back then. Do we have to keep flogging a dead dog? ( besides the one that keeps asking for it?)

And I believe you Jim when you say you never played the ego spiritual trip game or any other kind of ego trip game ever, especially not when you 'impressed' girls by reading books like the Bicameral Breakdown of the Human Mind, if I remember correctly, or was it . . . Oh, those were the days, eh Jim?

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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 23:04:51 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yeah....
Message:
I think most of us probably played the 'spiritually advanced' card with aspirants. They got really dumped on, and still do.

Then some premies dumped it on other premies, and, of course, the initiators (and the mahatmas), REALLY excreted it all over the place, especially some of them.

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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 21:29:47 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: because he doesn't deserve it
Message:
The meditation techniques themselves are not magical or mystical, but we were made to believe that 'grace' empowered our experience of 'knowledge'. It's all in the packaging.

It's whether you give M the credit, not if the meditation works, that defines a person being a premie.

I know a lot of people don't want to ever do 'knowledge' again and I respect that. That's testimony to how shitty a guru M really is, not the worthiness of the techniques.

Those techniques are practiced in different forms by people all over India and China and in between. I really don't care if the experience it brings is called God or not.

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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 22:06:07 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: I think that doesn't add up, myself
Message:
If I even for a moment thought that Maharaji mihgt have shown me some potent, wonderful meditation techniques I'd be very, very hesitant to put him down. Indeed, all the typical apologist arguments would be mine: so what if he's [blah, blah, blah], look what he showed me! (And yes, Maharaji would deserve all the credit for bringing this show to your neighborhood. That's what he was all about, remember? Spreading the word?)

No, I think that people like you who hold on to even a touch of wonder about the techniques are fooling yourselves. As far as I'm concerned it's much simpler than that: there is no Knowledge. Period.

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Date: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 02:45:23 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Your inferences are your own.
Message:
I'm really not saying what you attribute to me. My point is that M has no spiritual power in enabling the meditation (as shown by David Lane's experiments with initiation). The techniques are not his and could be considered universal throughout almost half of the world.

There is no 'Knowledge' with a capital 'K'. There are valuable techniques that M cannot claim to be 'his' anymore than Kirpal Singh, Parahamahansa Yogananda or Mai Long Dick can. Like software, the value is in the idea. All the hype of over M's person, all the paraphenalia are added on to it and for the obvious reason- to make money and amass power.

The packaging is a hype. I use the phrase 'knowledge' online only as an idiom- only in a group of people who understand the reference to the teaching that we were indoctrinated into. I don't mean it as acceptance of any of M's claims to divinity.

If you don't want to meditate, good for you. The vast majority of people will leave M who are initiated. Some significant per cent of that group will continue to meditate. If you want to pretend that their concerns are irrelevant, that's your biz, but since I do meditate, I don't consider it irrelevant. I also don't consider it in anyway to be a saving grace for Miragey that the meditation can work for people who use it. The question in that case becomes how can they learn the same technique without the degrading and personally damaging effect of M'ragey's cult (where that is what those people want to do).

People who want to meditate don't have to go M'ragey. Why should they?

If you buy the Brooklyn Bridge from a con artist, it makes sense to not feel guilty about driving on it.

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Date: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 04:11:51 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Thanks, you just spelled it out perfectly
Message:
If you buy the Brooklyn Bridge from a con artist, it makes sense to not feel guilty about driving on it.

The Brokklyn Bridge is a real bridge. The meditation tecniques are a fake bridge to 'god-realization'.

Big, big difference.

It sounds to me like you still embue some mojo in the mumbo jumbo. You call these techniques 'valuable'. Why? Exactly how valuable are they?

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Date: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 05:35:23 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Your welcome
Message:
No, your inferences are your own.

What value do I place on the techniques? It's hard to say and intellectual property is a confused commodity these days, not to mention intellectual property that clearly cannot be traced to one person (including and especially Prem Pal Rawatt).

The price of a Xerox, or the pric of the % of mgs to post a webpage. The price of a book?

To be honest, I think of it like stolen property that was sold to me by Rawatt.

Meditation has a value. The techniques are one way to meditate. Rawatt is a loss not an added benefit. The meditation is 'real' as a bridge is by way of metaphor.

You can argue against exercise if you want to, but it clearly has positive effects. The effects are not all-inclusive but they exist. If you don't want to exercise it's your own business. Meditation has some positive effects that can be appreciated in spite of M'ragey's deleterious influence on our lives. If you don't want to meditate because of M'ragey I respect that, but it hardly seems helpful to expect the rejection of meditation as criteria for exiting the cult. Why?

Anyway, that's your biz. I hope you agree to disagree. I enjoyed meditation more and more and Rawatt less and less until I exited the cult. I couldn't see the point of unnecessary and uncalled for demands being made on me and other premies in a verbally abusive atmosphere and still don't.

Do you?

If you make no new points, this'll have to do.

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Date: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 06:24:13 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Let's clarify this
Message:
You sought Knowledge when it was being advertsied as the secret of human existence. Do you think it's anything of the sort? What do you think it is? We know what exercise is, we know what bridges are but what's this meditation stuff? Is it what the hindu mystics have claimed all along, the inner doorway to God? Is it something like that? Anything? What?
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Date: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 06:28:24 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: And how about this, Run?
Message:
If you think the meditation is something great, you must give Maharaji some credit for bringing it your way, no? Have you ever thought what it would take for you to go back to him? After all, at the end of the day, he and he alone brought this most precious gift to you. Surely that counts for something.
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Date: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 14:51:53 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim , no disrespect but...
Message:
you're demonstrating perfectly what I said a couple of weeks ago. You sometimes come across as impervious and dense. This conversation between you Run and Anon is like St Francis trying to tell Attila the Hun about his communication with animals!
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Date: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 15:12:46 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: I'm with Attila, myself
Message:
What about his communication with Animals?

Really, I think I'll just adopt Joe's question: Run, do you think the techniques offer any more je ne sais quoi than any relaxation techniques you could pick up at a local YMCA's meditation class?

What about that, Hal? By the way, what do you think?

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Date: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 17:05:47 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I'm with Attila, myself
Message:
Jim,

Suppose I try to tell you that you don't get anything out of playing or listening to music? I'm tone deaf and I just can't see why musicians bother with all that crap. Waste of time.

Or try convincing someone who loves Art that there is no real beauty in it. It's a subjective experience and impossible to argue about, isn't it?

Come on Jim , just because it does nothing for you you surely don't believe that that's the absolute definitive truth for everyone, or maybe you do?

No I don't think that there is anything special about fatty's methods. I experience the same wonders when I walk in the woods and am aware of my breath. Available to anyone who wants it. Simple appreciation of living. Nothing to do with M. I've felt great listening to music that my father thought was garbage. Subjective experience.

I know you never back down but this is a losing case bro'

Hal

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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 01:53:47 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: The big diff: 'truth value'
Message:
Hal,

All your examples involve experiences that bear no truth value. Art, music and walks in the woods are all subjective pleasures that can't be 'right' or 'wrong' in the classic sense of those words. On the other hand, the meditation techniques are touted as methods to achieve a specific goal: so-called 'god realization'. This claim is either right or wrong. Big difference. See?

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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 10:07:29 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The big diff: 'truth value'
Message:
Jim,

Maybe you had such a massive concept of what God realisation would be. Perhaps God realisation is something much simpler than you thought. Even so simple that you missed it?

What about self realisation? The word God is so conceptual. We do have a 'self' that surely can be experienced. I definitely have experienced the awareness of myself as a consciousness. I'm an agnostic as far as believing in a person called God , but I definitely believe that I am in existence and anyone would have a hard time trying to prove otherwise.

I don't care if it's all brain chemistry or if there is no God .Going within and experiencing the still centre of beingness is a very pleasurable thing. It really is nothing to do with cults or any religion, just me exploring me. Get any of that or is it all just pissing into the wind?

Regards Hal

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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 05:05:48 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Come on, Hal
Message:
Maybe you had such a massive concept of what God realisation would be. Perhaps God realisation is something much simpler than you thought. Even so simple that you missed it?

Let's start with light brighter than 10,000 suns.

Hal, what are you doing? Were you there or not?

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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 07:18:28 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Oh now I see Jim
Message:
You mean to tell me that you never saw that light brighter than a thousand suns!! You pathetic meditator you. You really didn't let go and surrender now did you? Come on admit it you were just stuck in the mind weren't you?

No one explained at the time that that was just a metaphor? Actually Jim, joking aside , even Charanand admitted that he hardly ever saw light. You've got a point there as usual !

Hal

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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 02:21:31 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: 4 easy steps to 'God realization?!
Message:
How could you ever possibly have believed that it could be that easy to get 'God realization?' That boggles my mind more than m's claims. If that 'Knowledge' has been around for as long as it is claimed to have been, wouldn't a lot more people have achieved 'God realization?' You may have been young and naive, but you didn't grow up uneducated or living in a vacuum. Or maybe you did? And he was a child when he made those claims, and still doesn't have as much education as you did at that time. You have to take at least some responsibility for the personal choice you made to believe his claims.
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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 02:43:47 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Good question. You obviously weren't there
Message:
Stonor,

If you'd been around in the seventies, or maybe if you just read enough of the old satsangs, you'd understand. Knowledge was indeed sold as the most amazing, special, absolutely rare, potent and magical techniques .... well, what am I saying? Techniques? They weren't 'techniques'. That was just talk for the outside world. They were God itself, the four faces of God to be exact. And yes, we were indeed convinced that these four techniques and they alone could open the secret portals to infinite truth, wisdom and cosnciousness of bliss.

Why us? Because this was the most special time ever in the history of mankind. The Lord was having a bargain sale on God-realization. It used to be near impossible to find the master of the day. Even when one did, he'd have to wait nigh-on forever for the wondrous boon of this holy gift. Or do unthinkable tasks as did Milarepa. Now Maharaji was just giving the shit away; all you needed was a guileless heart, the heart of a child.

You don't understand. My views were indeed exactly as stated. Moreover, there was nothing the least bit unique or extraordinary about me as a premie. Nothing. I bit the 'Greatest Show on Earth' bait as did we all. Was it my fault? Sure. So? What's your point?

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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 15:59:37 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Gotta agree with Jim
Message:
(Sheesh, twice in one day!)

Stonor, I believed exactly the same things Jim did. There was also a lot of apocalyptic thinking going around at that time - the end of the Piscean age and the beginning of the Aquarian age, Edgar Cayce's and other prophecies, etc. I'd been immersed in that before I ever heard about Maharaji, so it was natural to believe that THIS TIME the Perfect Master had come to give knowledge to EVERYONE. (Maharaji actually said 'this time I have come with more power than before.)

The knowledge techniques were sold as Jim says - the one and only way to realize god in your lifetime, and the one and only way to survive in the New Age ('the time is very short', etc., etc.). Maharaji swore that he would bring peace to the world, and we believed him. The techniques were touted as being a panacea for all problems (I notice that this kind of rhetoric is non-existent now...for good reason!) Maharaji threatened people with dire consequences if they received knowledge and did not practice it. Plus there were all these premies running around saying that they'd had all these incredible experiences with knowledge, and that made other premies who didn't experience much, if anything, feel inadequate and as if they hadn't TRIED hard enough, been good enough, or whatever.

Yes, I agree that we are responsible for our choices. The problem with that, in this case, is that there were all kinds of other things going on besides just receiving knowledge and meditating on the techniques. Keep in mind also, that most of us were very young - college age or even younger. A lot of us came from dysfunctional (or worse) families, and a lot of us had been very into drugs. The feelings of guilt, inadequacy, and peer pressure were really hard on many people and some premies committed suicide because of this. It was VERY hard to feel all right about leaving - I was scared to death when I finally decided to stop following M. It took me about a year to get over it.

As Jim said, you had to be there. I doubt if anything like this could happen now - but it seemed very natural if one had been involved in the weird spirituality that was so prevalent in the late sixties and early seventies. The presentation of Maharaji and knowledge has changed so much since then - however, one thing that remains the same is the bait and switch practice. You're promised a free gift, and then after you get it (or maybe before), you find out it comes with all these strings attached: devotion, service, etc. before you can REALLY experience it.

Take care, Stonor -
Katie

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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 23:25:08 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Katie
Subject: Gotta agree with Jim
Message:
You know Katie, the way you described it, it sounds really weird. But that's not at all the way I see it. The way it worked with me, and the way I think it should work is - if you get any positive results with the Knowledge, and if you think Maharaji is doing a worthy thing in informing people of the existence of this and helping them experience it, then you are inclined to cooperate with him. Otherwise, why should you? If you didn't get anything out of the Knowledge, then why be devoted to him? So Knowledge, and your personal experience with it, is fundamental to all of this. That's the way I think it really works.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 05:02:42 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Very astute, Mili
Message:
Mili,

It really looks like you can't think any better than that. You were one of the truly original premie lummoxes here, you and CD. Both of you posted as if you were brain-damaged. CD ... well, we know about him. You? You completely fail to acknowledge the true history of the cult, right down to denying the most obvious, indisputable facts. Like the threat of 'Mr. Mind' Maharaji used to scare us with.

Fine. So you'll never admit nothing. That's okay. Leave it to more honest people to properly discuss Maharaji. No one takes you seriously because you don't take yourself seriously. Your views have no impact because they're not deep, they're not sincere. So many people have come and gotten involved in this Maharaji discussion over the past few years but tell me, Mili, do you think you've had any impact on a single one? I don't. I think you've been entirely insignificant. You've kept yourself that way.

Now, if you ever decide to open up a bit and honestly look at the historical record, just for starters, maybe someone will pay you some respect. Until then, you're not worth talking to.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 07:54:47 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Jim
Subject: Very astute, Jim
Message:
That's your old trick, isn't it Jim? Sidestepping the main issue - that Maharaji has been spreading the Knowledge and some people have been getting something out of it. Throw in a few 'lummoxes, brain-damaged, assholes' and presto! You've just won another argument (with yourself).

Pathetic.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 08:51:22 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Jim
Subject: ...and another thing
Message:
You're the one who is history, man.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 15:12:39 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: ..Mili .....Jim is his story? Yeah ! nt
Message:
buurp
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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 16:13:55 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: P.S. Stonor
Message:
An example of how weird we all were back then - most of us early-seventies premies actually believed that 'Millenium' - an event at the Houston Astrodome in 1973, was going to usher in the New Age of peace, love, etc. (all overseen by Maharaji). A few of us even believed that the world was going to come to an end then, or that the Astrodome was going to take off with all the premies aboard.

I have got to get you a copy of the 'Lord of the Universe' video - it's a PBS documentary about Millenium. You won't believe it!

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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 02:54:41 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Where Jim? In your mind? No.
Message:
What's your point? You seem to have missed mine.
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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 03:16:59 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Oh, excuse me. Please, I'm sorry. Please
Message:
Stonor,

I thought I got your point just fine. But maybe I didn't. What was it beside that no one in their right mind, especially someone with a little ejumucation under their belt, would believe what I claim I did way back when? Or that if I actually did believe it I was to blame?

Oh yeah, there was that question about why didn't I see through m's bullshit on the basis that so few people over time had ever 'realized' this s-called 'Knowledge'. Thought I answered that too. But I'll try again. We thought that this time the mountain had come to Mohammed, kinda. We human beings were too weak to climb the great spiral stairway to heaven? No problem, the Lord himself was coming down to our level one a one-time only basis. What once was rare was now available to all. Etc.

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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 03:27:43 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: OK Jim, so God came down to show you how to realiz
Message:
OK Jim, so God came down to show you how to 'realize' him? That's why you're all to blame?
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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 14:35:26 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Jim and others
Subject: Let me qualify that
Message:
The above was written in reaction to Jim's post. I apologize if I suggested by this that some more vulnerable people were equally responsible for their decisions - that is obviously unfair, especially after learning through James Flynn's post at what age some people 'received Knowledge.' I think I have made it clear in other posts how I feel about m and his 'trip.'

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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 15:22:44 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Hi Stoner
Message:
It does all seem very strange . The age factor was indeed very relevant. Also the drug experiences that nearly every person who became a premie had had, particularly with LSD . The feeling of oneness that happened in the hippie culture was transferring itself to guru culture. Many realised that there had to be a natural high otherwise you ended up like Jimi , Janice and Jim Morrison.

The boy wonder guru aged 15 was a phenomena at that time. Some very cool , intelligent people were getting pulled in so there was lots of peer pressure too.

Kind regards Hal

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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 22:09:06 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Getting sucked in
Message:
Jim pisses me off sometimes also, but he is no more responsible for getting sucked into the cult than anyone else. We are to some degree responsible, but we all make mistakes. If you had been in the same circumstances, you too may have been sucked in. It's easier than you think.

For me, getting sucked into the trip was a gradual process. That's part of how an otherwise intelligent person can be duped. Emotional desperation is another reason, emotions sometimes can compel us to believe things, and many people give in. God in human form here to save me from all my suffering, to give me perfect peace and joy. It's quite a lure. Frankly, I didn't believe it at first when I learned the techniques, I wondered what the fuss about him was all about, but then I got sucked in. I snapped.

To understand a lot of this, you need to understand how brainwashing works. I don't know if you've ever been brainwashed, so I don't know if you can relate. There are some archived posts here that deal with brainwashing and some good books about it.

Consider this, how did the Germans get sucked into Nazism? Talk about a destructive cult! Yes, it's amazing what people can be led to believe.

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Date: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 16:15:04 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I'm with Attila, myself
Message:
You seem to have a love of fighting and arguing whether it's with premies or exes who don't tow your ideological enoug even when the disagreement is purely rhetorical. I'm not a pacifist, but fighting over important issues of no substance is just stupid, and makes it harder for people in the cult to understand what is going on and where the line is really drawn.

You're continuously taking issue with me on the divinity of 'knowledge'. I really do not think that the 'knowledge' in theory has anything more than any other class in meditation and I've said this. M'ragey's divinity, mastery, etc is equivalent to the divinity, mastery, etc of 'knowledge' and their is none. David Lane's experiments have shown this perfectly clearly.

This isn't about the physicality of the Brooklyn Bridge. It's about the bridge not being equivalent to Brooklyn. Brooklyn is worth more than the bridge, right?

Give it a rest, Jim. You're taking issue where there is none. Why not do something useful like go kick a dog or something?

Sorry, just kidding, everyone.

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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 02:08:32 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: You must feel pretty confused, Run
Message:
I'm looking back over your posts and wondering how'd we get into this argument? Was I just trying to chase you back over to your Recent Ex forum where no one's allowed to challenge each other? No, not at all. So then how'd this happen?

And then I found comments of yours like this:

Those techniques are practiced in different forms by people all over India and China and in between. I really don't care if the experience it brings is called God or not.

and it all comes back to me. Run, let's be honest about this. You say you don't care if these techniques actually bring an experience of God or not, but how could that be? For if they do then they're astounding! If these techniques, with or without any particular 'master's grace', can actually put people in touch with God, I'd say they're amazing, not to be taken lightly, etc. etc.

How can you say otherwise? It just doesn't make sense.

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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 04:15:46 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: If only words didn't come out of my mouth,
Message:
you could make them up yourself and argue with someone saying exactly what you disagree with.

Such an inconvenience. Why can't I fit the opposite point of view to the argument you're making? But then, I guess you'll imagine an argument where there is none. Just add the words in, as if I'd said them. It'll fool people who don't bother to read what's I've said.

Later, man.

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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 14:13:03 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: You'd rather spit than answer? Why?
Message:
Look, Run, you could be a little more honest, don't you think? Why not just say that this issue is 'sacred' (read 'taboo') for you or something? You don't have to attack me for trying to discuss it with you.

It's funny, Run, time and time again you've proven that you don't have any more capacity to discuss things openly than your average evasive premie. But they're in a cult and are trying to protect their cult leader. What's your excuse?

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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 16:55:10 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You haven't digested a few days' of food? nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 02:39:12 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Do even YOU understand what you're saying?
Message:
Run,

You're bogging down here, fella. Maybe you should go spend some time with Surrealistic Simon or whatever his name is. Teach you to talk straight lest you get stuck that way. Kind of like crossing your eyes when you were a kid.

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Date: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 18:34:07 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: I'm with Attila, myself pt 2
Message:
Here is the first paragraph corrected:
You seem to have a love of fighting and arguing whether it's with premies or exes who don't tow your ideological line enough even when the disagreement is purely rhetorical. I'm not a pacifist, but fighting over issues of no substance is just stupid, and makes it harder for people in the cult to understand what is going on and where the line is really drawn.

No offense to Deputy Dog meant in my little joke, either.

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Date: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 00:36:23 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: footnotes for the uninitiated
Message:
Okay...lemme see if I'm getting this.

Knowledge is a way to look inside.

Is there an expectation to see the divine or truth or some other blissful lightshow?

Is it to get out of yourself and into something godlike? To see truth?

Where then, would M fit in? Is he the essential catalyst to see this truth? Or is it his truth you are supposed to see?

I've always thought meditation was to quiet the mind and gain a little perspective...to sort of feel more a part of things around you; I've never thought it could somehow unlock secrets or answers within you.

I think if the Buddhist saying:
'First moutains are mountains and rivers are rivers.
Then mountains are no longer mountains and rivers are no longer rivers.
Finally, mountains are mountains and rivers are rivers.'

Is M actually selling, oops, I mean giving away totally free, knowledge as SOMETHING, as opposed to a means?

I don't think I believe in a higher spiritual being. I think I believe there are some people better at dealing with suckitude and seeing through it. I think it takes a little insight, but I don't think its terribly spiritual.

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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 23:06:18 (GMT)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I think that doesn't add up, myself
Message:
If I even for a moment thought that Maharaji mihgt have shown me some potent, wonderful meditation techniques I'd be very, very hesitant to put him down.

Rubbish!!
I detect the liberal use of dishonesty used for effect here Jim.

Of course many amongst us have been very hesitant to 'put him down' - you included I should imagine - but more importantly that hesitation has not actually prevented us criticising him. Can you, in all honesty say that your transition from premie to ex was so instantaneous that you experienced no hesititation? I would be also hard pressed to believe that you never once judged the meditation techniques as being potent or wonderful. All premies did that!
Come on man, pull the other one!
(Anyway Jim, you know how much I cherish Maharaji's teachings - leave me alone.)

It's so funny reading people like Anon and Run intimating that Maharaji had anything of value to teach. He doesn't. He never has and never will. 'Knowledge' is fake. It's a superstitious hindu parlour trick and that's it.

Did I intimate that??

Anyway seeing as you mention it, you're correct that I am not as convinced as you that the experiences I have had meditating are totally fake (or worthless).
It is partly because I enjoyedsome parts of Maharaji's teachings that I feel it is worth spending a little time trying to straighten out here what I consider problems in the way it was and is communicated. I suppose you could say that I am concerned with removing any fakeness surrounding any simple benefits that I enjoyed.

I don't consider those teachings that I value as being 'Maharaji's' (as you seem to imply that I do) even though they were indirectly taught by him. You're being a little bit naughty suggesting that aren't you?

Clearly there is every likelihood that those pleasurable sensations are produced in ones brain, and indeed perceived by it's means. So no need for Hindu parlour tricks there. Also people can surely learn how to do this by ways other than following a hindu 'Master' and all the associated rigmorole.

I agree that the religion that surrounds meditation is fake, and I am also appalled at the trickery that is perpetuated in the course of 'teaching' such things.
Ok, so there are 'Hindu parlour tricks' happening in the respect of this or that particular Hindu presentation, but surely the meditation part need not have the 'hindu' associations attached to it in order to work. I see the 'hindu parlour tricks' as being the way 'hindus' get people (usually other hindus) to interpret their experiences in a 'hindu' light and thus have to pay deference to that 'hindu'.

Any enjoyment you might get by meditating on the techniques is a completely insignificant by-product to being ripped off.

I would have thought that the enjoyment of meditation could be called a significant result but yes, it is most unfortunate that the pursuit of this pleasure should result in being ripped off.
It is the 'ripping off' cultic aspect, in this case, which is an unfortunate and very significant factor to beware, despite the enjoyment that one gets from meditation.

Enjoyment=good, ripped off=bad

The one, of course, does not necessarily have to go with the other, hence I surmise that there may be aspects of M's teachings that are possibly harmless.

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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 11:49:19 (GMT)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Raina
Subject: David Smith
Message:
David Smith had been annoyed at me for sneaking into a session I hadn't been invited to in Spain in 1990(?)...... In his frustration he snapped at me that he would 'see to it that I never recieved knowledge!'
About 2 years later, in Miami, Maharaji from his stage, asked David in the audience, to take down the names of certain people he was calling on. People who were 'asking for knowledge' were raising their hands. Maharaji called on me, and I told him what David Smith had said to me in Spain years before. Maharaji's response was 'I don't believe it.' He made a joke about me '...asking for his watch, and getting the same response...' or something.

Firstly let me assure you that you are by no means alone in having been a victim of David Smith's callous, over-the-top, strictness. In many ways he has shown himself to have a 'Jeckyl and Hyde' personality. On the one hand he has seemed innocent and inspired and on the other, insensitive and harsh. I'm afraid that the immedite analogy that springs to my mind is one of him being like a henchman of Hitler's who, bloated with the power afforded him by his position within with the trusted and worshipped Feuhrer's scheme, cannot restrain himself from taking sadistic advantage of the situation in which he finds himself.

Smith clearly had a vicious streak which I noticed on many occasions.
When he was Community Co-ordinator in Hollywood (where I was in the mid-seventies, living near that aforementioned Capitol Records building) he displayed early signs of his later sinister side. Later I suffered directly from his cruelty when I was applying, in England, to be an ashram premie. I passed his screening test but not without suffering fear for my mortal soul in the process. He indeed seemed to get a perverse kick out of hurting others. ('all in the course of duty' was I suppose his justification.)
Many others have written here to add their testimonies of mistreatment by him. Somewhere there is a page on the Net consisting entirely of letters remembering and complaining about his abusive behaviour.

I would never hate Maharaji. I don't even have a problem with him.

Considering that Maharaji could at best dismiss your maltreatment with a joke, worse...at your expense, most sensible people would immediately see that there was a very real and dangerous potential for abuse here.
Moreover, that you, as the recipient of the injustice, should be the first to excuse your abusers is entirely consistent with the well-known 'self-denigrating' responses of abuse victims (notably within the context of a religious cult, or other analogues of 'the family').

Whilst you may recognise the value of some of the things you have learned from Maharaji you should definitely be extremely wary of letting this cloud your judgement of what is actually going on here.
Of course, it is sometimes a noble quality or even a mutually constructive attitude to be able to forgive those who have done one wrong and, Maharaji may indeed have some circumstances that go some way to mitigate the mistakes he has made at expense to others.

Until Maharaji shows some sign of even slightly admitting and redressing his past mistakes, then may I suggest, that such leniency on your part is not only possibly bad for you but also possibly a contributing cause of Maharaji's continuing, arrogant refusal to account to anyone for his sins?

Let me humbly suggest that you exercise as much rigorous self-honesty, integrity, and effort as you ever once applied in your 'search for truth' when giving yourself a fresh 'reality check'.
I might add that, in my opinion, it is paramount (when trying to educate oneself properly on this phenomenon that we have all been mesmerised by for so long) to assiduously seek out, identify and dismiss any fear that may be underlying and influencing one in any way whatsoever.

Fear is an intolerable motive that I think that we would best recognise and revile for the corruptive and imprisoning effect it has, when we allow it to grip our minds. I have realised that some of my fear was originally, natural, unnavoidable, innocent and even healthy, but Maharaji has played on, elaborated and fed that fear over the years with his claim to be the only available authority regarding the purpose of my life.

I feel that Maharaji, Jesus and the rest have all played to the fact that most people have a natural fear of the unknown. The biggest and most crucial 'unknown' being the issue of our mortality, it is easy to see how much 'priestly' power someone can accrue who claims to, or even does show us a way to feel a wonderful, reassuring experience within. One tends to trust such 'Masters' without further question when they indeed seem to give us such a means of comfort. Knowledge can be seen as such a comfort or revelation but the exclusivity and neccessity of the man who claims to be the sole agent of this has always been in question. This is very topical since it is Easter and as we all know Jesus became a martyr for his cause because some found his power too threatening.

Maharaji has shown through his 'authoritarian' beliefs that there is a place for fearful respect in the Master, premie world. It is for each of us to decide how much we can tolerate this dynamic in our search for truth.

From what you say I read that you are facing some personal truths about your experiences and trying to get them into perspective. Power to you and...welcome to the club!

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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 08:01:59 (GMT)
From: infinity trade
Email: infinity_trade@yahoo.com
To: Raina
Subject: David Smith
Message:
It's funny, that's my name, but we're not the same. M is human you know. It is a job to him giving the knowlege, something he is convinced is good, something he likes to do, something that earns him a living. Conflics in relationships arise everywhere with everyone from time to time.If they tell you otherwise don't listen, they are just a bit away with it. You had some 'rainy days' in your life, yes these can be a joy, they are also part of nature, and so can be even 'hell'. But to be one with the weather, life, one's self, others ? It a long old game for everyone. In my 'trade' knowlege is an important tool. For those that have and can use it, there is another toy in their life. For those that don't there can be exasperation, or they are not really bothered. Does it matter anyway? Only you know.
M? why attach to him? If it makes you feel better OK. If it does not, why worry, you have yourself and there is the rest of humanity and life itself, teeming, crazy, even evil all before you, parading enacting, being. It's all a bit like the weather, and you Raina a flower blossoming in harmony for all to see, with eyes to see, in the midst of it all. Do you feel better? I hope you do I wrote this for you.
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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 06:26:57 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Raina
Subject: Raina's left
Message:
I don't think you have to hate M (altho I don't think you don't either), but why leave lingering credit to him. If you feel something, it is yours, not M's.

It sounds like you know this but it hasn't processed through all the way yet. Why try to make excuses for M? Be thankful you are out of there, but I wouldn't try to rationalise away M's own role in messing up your life. I think we are pretty insignificant to him. It's my opinion and you're welcome to your own.

Does some rock star love everyone who buys a CD? They might but they love the cash a lot more.

Good luck. Hope you stick around.

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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 00:36:55 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: tracking JM and SB
Message:
This reminds me of my mother moving the ceramic Mary and Joseph along the bookshelf each Saturday when she was cleaning so they would end up at the manger by Christmas Eve. Picture little plastic JM and SB tooling along in thier hot wheels mustang, headed toward my humble abode with plumbing they haven't heard about. :|
JM called about an hour ago and said, 'We are getting closer and closer.' I am hearing he is hell on wheels but SB is sticking with him, hanging on for dear life.
I think they'll check in when they've arrive. In the mean time I've had a nice glass of home made red wine and I'm feeling fine. :)
Robyn the tipsy
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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 00:56:54 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: tracking JM and SB
Message:
And is your house one of those little houses in the train sets with little plastic trees and are your pets little plastic toys? That post was too too funny, especially the part about the figurines moving closer to the manger. What a friend we have in Cheese-its!WIsh I could join ya for a glass of that wine--sounds good if your state of mind is any indication!
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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 02:18:54 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: tracking JM and SB
Message:
Dear Helen,
I think they'll be calling soon, of course I can't remember when it was they called...
I laughed out loud when I read the Cheese-it's thing! :)
I had one glass of that wine and had to recover from it! Not bad but that pronounced, now I am trying not to lie down and muss my curls. :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 05:54:11 (GMT)
From: They made it fine...
Email: None
To: all
Subject: tracking JM and SB
Message:
They are all around, some wood burning, drinking something... talking...enjoying meeting their faces... so I heard... in a house of figurines...

continues....

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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 06:04:55 (GMT)
From: who cares
Email: None
To: They made it fine...
Subject: tracking JM and SB
Message:
really
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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 16:50:56 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: who cares
Subject: Who cares about YOU, premie-ji?
Message:
What a fucking jerk you premies can be!

But who cares anthing really about you, huh? You think that asshole on your video screen does? The guy who keeps taking your money? Or maybe your premie friends? Are they there for you? To what extent? My experience in the cult tells me that you're dealing with a lot of very compromised loyalties; leaves you pretty much on your own. So look at you -- an anonymous, little creep taking pot shots at people who don't kiss your stupid cult leader's ass anymore. You're a worm.

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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 16:59:55 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: hey Jim
Message:
The FA's can track IP's and all. So if it's a premie, we will know. Chill bro.
And if not, it's just some wacked out ex who needs a break.

Selene..... always doing something strange here just because..
And... I do need a break!!!!

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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 18:45:37 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: hey Jim
Message:
I didn't know anyone was going to bother smoking out this ferret. Really, who cares about Who Cares? I assumed it was a premie just because. But really, like I said, who cares?
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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 06:11:17 (GMT)
From: We Care
Email: None
To: who cares
Subject: tracking JM and SB
Message:
Really!
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Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 06:30:33 (GMT)
From: Oh I care too very much
Email: None
To: We Care
Subject: don't get me wrong
Message:
I just want us to keep thinking about how we all hate the guru
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Date: Tues, Apr 25, 2000 at 00:29:57 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Oh I care too very much
Subject: don't get me wrong
Message:
Well...yes: He is a deluded creep....

What else can we say...

SB

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