Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Thurs, May 04, 2000 at 22:25:06 (GMT)
From: Apr 20, 2000 To: May 02, 2000 Page: 2 Of: 5


Raina -:- No wonder M often seems an ass-He's reflecting! -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 06:00:53 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- No wonder M often seems an ass-He's reflecting! -:- Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 05:36:16 (GMT)
__ __ raina -:- No wonder M often seems an ass-He's reflecting! -:- Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 15:58:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- No wonder M often seems an ass-He's reflecting! -:- Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 02:01:11 (GMT)
__ bb -:- No wonder M often seems an ass-He's reflecting! -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 12:21:53 (GMT)
__ __ raina -:- sometimes an ass-because he's reflecting! -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 16:46:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ bb -:- sometimes an ass-because he's reflecting! -:- Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 05:45:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Helen -:- Hey bb (ot) -:- Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 16:01:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ bb -:- Hey bb (ot) -:- Mon, May 01, 2000 at 04:02:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ raina -:- sometimes an ass-because he's reflecting! -:- Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 06:18:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ bb -:- sometimes an ass-because he's reflecting! -:- Mon, May 01, 2000 at 04:06:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- Is that where 'premie' comes from? (Prem) -:- Mon, May 01, 2000 at 16:22:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- What the fuck are you trying to say? (nt) -:- Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 01:38:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ raina -:- That's right Jim! I'm calling you an ass! -:- Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 04:15:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ A premie -:- That's right Jim! I'm calling you an ass! -:- Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 22:49:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Are you on any particular medication? (nt) -:- Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 13:07:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ JW -:- sometimes an ass-because he's reflecting! -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 17:25:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ raina -:- sometimes an ass-because he's reflecting! -:- Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 00:47:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Maharaji's Speaking Tricks -:- Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 16:43:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- I think Ive been blocked from posting! -:- Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 18:39:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- This writing style looks awfully familiar. -:- Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 02:16:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jw -:- You have a BRAIN it is for THINKING .. do it. -:- Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 19:09:09 (GMT)
__ Raina -:- Correction: 'Sometimes' not 'often' I should say. -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 06:07:35 (GMT)
__ __ Runamok -:- Correction: 'Sometimes' not 'often' I should say. -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 07:50:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ raina -:- Correction: 'Sometimes' not 'often' I should say. -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 17:13:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Runamok -:- Correction: 'Sometimes' not 'often' I should say. -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 18:08:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Raina -:- Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 01:34:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- Jesus Christ the Kidnapped -:- Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 06:12:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- reconciliation with the whole strange trip -:- Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 13:31:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- reconciliation with the whole strange trip -:- Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 08:20:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Run/Raina -:- Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 13:53:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Raina -:- happy sadness -:- Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 17:43:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- happy sadness -:- Mon, May 01, 2000 at 00:54:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- heart of hearing -:- Mon, May 01, 2000 at 03:50:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ A premie -:- This thread -:- Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 18:06:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- This thread -:- Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 14:12:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ A premie -:- This thread -:- Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 14:45:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- Just Say Know! -:- Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 17:42:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Do you really believe that, Helen? -:- Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 15:06:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Raina -:- Jim: Do you really believe that, Helen? -:- Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 17:57:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Look who's talking?? -:- Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 18:59:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- I don't know shit and I'm proud of it! -:- Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 21:14:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Okay, Raina, this is the best I can do -:- Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 21:27:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Raina -:- Barton Fink -:- Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 04:28:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Daneane -:- Figure things out -:- Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 05:30:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Raina -:- Yes mam. Right away. -:- Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 06:48:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Daneane -:- Oops. -:- Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 12:16:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Raina -:- Ok-it's like this -:- Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 07:46:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Ok-it's like this -:- Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 13:57:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Raina -:- Ok-it's like this -:- Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 22:18:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ bb -:- Ok-it's like this -:- Mon, May 01, 2000 at 04:18:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Daneane -:- People like Jim -:- Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 12:19:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Okay, I've got it now -- you're a rock star -:- Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 05:27:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Raina -:- Okay, I've got it now -- I'm an asshole -:- Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 07:00:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Do you really believe that, Helen? -:- Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 15:37:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Come on, Helen -:- Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 18:56:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Come on, Helen -:- Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 05:59:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Come on, Helen -:- Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 03:25:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Daneane -:- Duality -:- Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 00:50:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Oliver -:- Jesus Christ the Kidnapped -:- Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 09:38:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Raina -:- Jesus Christ the Kidnapped -:- Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 16:17:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Oliver -:- Jesus Christ the Kidnapped -:- Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 01:57:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Raina -:- Slow Southern Drawl -:- Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 04:45:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- Jesus Christ the Kidnapped -:- Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 02:17:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Oliver -:- Jesus Christ the Kidnapped -:- Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 02:44:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Raina -:- 'eat me' as Jesus says? -:- Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 04:54:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- Yes that's the one -:- Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 08:09:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Oliver -:- NO!...........it was the bit about the garden hose -:- Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 10:44:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ A premie -:- Jesus Christ the Kidnapped -:- Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 18:14:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Well, there's a compliment worth having. -:- Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 03:37:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Funny how you guys attract one another -:- Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 19:03:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Raina -:- Funny how you guys attract one another -:- Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 07:24:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Funny how you guys attract one another -:- Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 14:01:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Raina -:- Funny how you guys attract one another -:- Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 17:46:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Not in general but this one sure does -:- Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 02:54:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- yes yes yes whatever jim -:- Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 03:17:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Sorry to hear that, Helen (nt) -:- Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 03:27:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Sorry to hear that, Helen (nt) -:- Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 13:43:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Daneane -:- Helen: your posts do not suck.(nt) -:- Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 01:37:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- thanks, Daneane and -:- Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 01:40:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Daneane -:- Waves of suckitude -:- Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 01:44:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Waves of suckitude and natural doubt -:- Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 01:54:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Daneane -:- Excerpt -:- Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 03:54:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Excerpt -:- Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 13:40:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ raina -:- Correction: 'Sometimes' not 'often' I should say. -:- Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 00:26:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ A premie -:- Correction: 'Sometimes' not 'often' I should say. -:- Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 20:30:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- Correction: 'Sometimes' not 'often' I should say. -:- Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 02:39:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Oliver -:- Careful Runa, I think he fancies you! (nt) -:- Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 04:37:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JW -:- Maharaji's message -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 17:38:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ raina -:- Maharaji's message -:- Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 01:11:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Maharaji's message -:- Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 16:51:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Concerned Observer -:- Maharaji's message -:- Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 12:45:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Run, why don't you just go back to Him? -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 14:37:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Runamok -:- How many hours a week do you spend reading ELK? -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 15:46:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- You might understand if you had a sense of humor -:- Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 13:12:50 (GMT)

Jim -:- This just in: Santa Monica was a success!! -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 05:10:46 (GMT)
__ Ebert -:- This just in: Santa Monica was a success!! -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 13:10:56 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- And this? This could have been you! -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 06:49:42 (GMT)
__ __ Anon -:- And this? This could have been you! -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 10:11:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ EV-ex -:- Anon: knowledge by DVD! -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 15:42:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Ajax -:- Yes (nt) -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 15:50:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ EV-ex -:- Thanks, Ajax (nt) -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 16:14:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ Ajax -:- And this? This could have been you! -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 15:29:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Preventing 'fraudulent access' -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 17:09:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Preventing 'fraudulent access' -- Hi Marianne,,,, -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 18:26:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Hi Joe OT -:- Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 17:58:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Hi Marianne OT -:- Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 19:49:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Hi Joe OT -:- Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 12:41:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ bb -:- Walking naked with attitude -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 12:39:53 (GMT)

Jim -:- Katie and Jim Announce New Forum -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 03:09:12 (GMT)
__ bb -:- Sign me up for your Millenium Gala!--(nt) -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 16:49:02 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- allright I tried dammit -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 05:28:46 (GMT)
__ __ bb -:- allright I tried dammit -:- Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 05:47:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- no record breaking; just some residual lurking -:- Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 00:08:06 (GMT)
__ Runamok -:- May I suggest that you charge for your services? -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 03:35:20 (GMT)

Robyn -:- Happy Birthday Michael a.k.a. Mickey the P. -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 23:58:25 (GMT)
__ Michael aka Mickey the P -:- Happy Birthday Michael a.k.a. Mickey the P. -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 18:47:52 (GMT)
__ __ bb -:- Happy Birthday Michael a.k.a. Mickey the P. -:- Mon, May 01, 2000 at 04:11:25 (GMT)
__ __ Irene -:- Happy Birthday Michael a.k.a. Mickey the P. -:- Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 17:21:27 (GMT)
__ cq -:- All the best, Michael - how'd the thesis go? (nt) -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 14:58:13 (GMT)
__ Marianne -:- Happy Birthday Michael a.k.a. Mickey the P. -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 08:26:13 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- Happy Birthday Michael a.k.a. Mickey the P. -:- Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 16:32:13 (GMT)

Blood Boils -:- I was just looking for a free mantra -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 21:29:31 (GMT)
__ cq -:- No such thing as a free mantra - or lunch -:- Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 10:06:23 (GMT)

EV-ex -:- To premie lurkers -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 19:57:55 (GMT)
__ Pauline Premie -:- That Knowledge Review -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 23:40:39 (GMT)
__ __ Blood Boils -:- excellent reporting sister ji (nt) -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 00:06:39 (GMT)
__ __ Pauline Premie -:- By the way -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 00:02:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ Gregg -:- By the way -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 03:05:58 (GMT)

Q -:- MYSTERY RULES! -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 18:27:56 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- Cultic Knowledge -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 19:20:11 (GMT)
__ __ Q -:- Do you think we'll ever actually get over it? -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 19:29:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ Helen -:- YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (nt) -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 19:59:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Q -:- Do you want to know a secret? -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 20:10:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Do you want to know a fact? -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 20:17:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Q -:- Do you want to know another fact? -:- Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 17:27:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Gregg -:- Yes! -:- Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 01:50:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Gregg -:- Open Secrets -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 03:16:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Q -:- 'I have no secrets.' wow! you really are unique nt -:- Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 17:30:37 (GMT)

Mike -:- Time to throw a party! -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 16:41:12 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- Come back!!!! -:- Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 15:06:36 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- Time to throw a party! -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 17:59:41 (GMT)
__ bb -:- Not if you are going! -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 16:56:47 (GMT)
__ Robyn -:- Time to throw a party! -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 01:28:46 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- Hey - not so fast..! -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 00:19:30 (GMT)
__ Katie -:- Please don't leave, Mike! -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 22:10:02 (GMT)
__ JW -:- Time to throw a party! -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 21:18:51 (GMT)
__ __ Powerman -:- Time to throw a party! -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 00:14:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ JW -:- How do you know what his race is? -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 00:18:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Powerman -:- How do you know what his race is? -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 01:26:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ JW -:- How do you know what his race is? -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 04:38:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ bb -:- human race...............MIKE -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 17:12:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- human race? MIKE? actually I spread the rumor.. -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 18:14:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Powerman -:- How do you know what his race is? -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 05:41:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Maybe this is a racist question, Powerman ....... -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 15:15:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Powerman -:- Maybe this is a racist question, Powerman ....... -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 16:40:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Ah, the power of a good joke -:- Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 01:59:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Powerman -:- Get Real -:- Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 12:50:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Okay, you got me there alright -:- Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 13:14:36 (GMT)
__ Powerman -:- Time to throw a party! -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 18:11:40 (GMT)
__ Hal -:- Time to throw a party! -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 17:57:08 (GMT)
__ Runamok -:- Hey Mike -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 17:16:07 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- Hey Mike -:- Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 15:55:51 (GMT)

Jim -:- Runamok's strange idea -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 14:35:15 (GMT)
__ Edited -:- edited -:- Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 12:45:03 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Ha! Threatened by Run's true friend, Catweasel -:- Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 13:18:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ edited -:- edited -:- Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 13:31:39 (GMT)
__ Powerman -:- Runamok's strange idea -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 16:01:46 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Forget it, Pman -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 02:01:32 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Jim, you're such a gossip...(nt) -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 15:47:47 (GMT)
__ __ Runamok -:- Why not argue on AG where the thread is? -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 17:02:20 (GMT)
__ No one cares -:- Runamok's strange idea -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 14:45:04 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Yes, well that's one valuable opinion -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 15:02:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sorry -:- it took so long to read -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 15:00:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ Way -:- To no one cares -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 15:27:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Gregg -:- To no one cares -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 16:41:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Oliver -:- To no one cares -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 00:38:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Tami -:- Thats troo -:- Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 23:16:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ M's staff -:- Thats troo Tami -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 15:05:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Tami -:- Thats troo Tami -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 16:42:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mahatma Dickinand -:- Thats troo Tami -:- Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 17:50:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mahatma Love-in-glove -:- You wish (nt) -:- Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 18:33:46 (GMT)


Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 06:00:53 (GMT)
From: Raina
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: No wonder M often seems an ass-He's reflecting!
Message:
Warning: I may be talking to myself. (Even though YOUR brain is telling you that YOU know what I need etc.) And the sentence that follows the one you have the urge to interrupt, may alter completely your understanding of any accidental point made!

I don't know what makes me want to attempt to communicate or reach out in some way...The chance that an honest action (hopefully) might somehow restore oxygen (indirectly), as opposed to use it up pointlessly? the chance that it's really needing to be said, and just coming through me sans ego? That it might be worthwhile? I sense that I may likely regret bothering to post anything. As there seems to be here, way more talking than listening going on... I mean, I guess that would be ok....fine...if it didn't seem so often to be more hateful, and judgemental (ironically) than anything I ever heard Maharaji say....Ironically reading posts in this forum, only makes me understand where Maharaji's short-comings-come from at all. People can't help but CHOOSE to misunderstand each other for a zillion reasons, and a million moods most of the time. Consciously or unconsciously doesn't even matter really...I guess that this locks M's perhaps MOST sincere attemtps, into the lowest common denominator communication etc....?

It's all just such a waste of oxygen! No shit! So I guess that is the whole rap for going inside to a clean slate etc....? Away from all these cozy 'buddies' in the 'club' sharing yucks wondering if they have an audience to read some of their cleverness...yuck is right.

Isn't M's gig, sort of like, a guiness-book-of-world-records, RECORD, for fewest mistakes made in one human lifetime? Then of course he can't help but make mistakes...and he knows that...? He may act like he takes himself more seriously than he does...because SO many stupid people have kept him there...it's hard to explain....

Hell! I'm not ashamed to admit, that pondering things he's said, HAS opened my eyes up to things I'd never known....(which also made me a freak to the average muggle-which brings just as much pain at times as it does consciousness etc).....so that's where I'm supposed to take comfort in the silence in my quieted self I guess? (Not because Im being forced-but because it's like a needed restoration-if I want to avoid the trendy entertainment of torturing each other out of boredom....fill my mind with questions of higher purpose any day!

If there was ONE thing I really do appreciate hearing from the guy, it would be the idea of (at least trying or being aware of) listening wholly to someone before reacting, or responding. Like not mixing up ME with YOU....and how we don't even realize the way we pretend to be having conversation most of the time. Like trying to keep the projection to a minimum (or off completely ideally...) For our own sakes? It seems crucial. it just makes sense. It's actually a practical practice?

Too many people (in this apparent chat room) seem to have this argumentative condescending tone...(that's like...making me sound like a jerk already by barking back?)....Do you already have the 'need' to respond to what I'm saying? Even though I haven't said much of anything yet? Do you want to try to jar me with a 'fuck you'? As if you are SO much more liberated? Or make a farting joke, because you feel the urge to relieve anyone from getting too serious etc....it's like why bother?

Are we all not still searching for something common and constant? Even those who are in the mood to challenge everything in the most pointless emptiness they can conjure up...maybe not...

There's a self-indulgence that is laughable (on all sides)...I was reading a letter on a previous page from Maharaji's wife etc.....where's the soap opera? who's trying to embarrass who? 'The police!' 'She said Asshole!' ? Oh my God!!! It's all too pathetic....the reactions on all sides.........and all M's trying to say is 'you can always start fresh'? 'The further away the better!' But people think they need to get closer because they're tragic victims of some unspeakable tragedy.........no wonder maharaji might seem like an asshole sometimes! He's reflecting!

whatever....... love+piece

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Date: Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 05:36:16 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Raina
Subject: No wonder M often seems an ass-He's reflecting!
Message:
Raina:

'Isn't M's gig, sort of like, a guiness-book-of-world-records, RECORD, for fewest mistakes made in one human lifetime?'

No. The little mistakes do add up, but it takes a lot to equal one big one. Spiritually misleading even one person intentionally is kinda big. Spiritually misleading hundreds of thousands... there's no 'kinda' about it. Just about everyone you know is ahead of Maharaji.

So, Raina, just why did you come on the forum to whine about being made the butt of a joke by M... and then resent any and all responses, essentially mocking those who took a step? Just how perverse do you need us to think you are? Yeah, I know... Maharaji 'helped' you. Sure. You're leaking it all over the place.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 15:58:27 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: No wonder M often seems an ass-He's reflecting!
Message:
It's amazing....you know...when i started reading your post i was like 'Oh NO! Is that what I wrote!' and so totally agreed with your first paragraph.....immediately wanting to explain to you what I meant to say!

Of COURSE messing up even one life is criminal..........but I wasn't clear........... i left out the word 'trying' in that Guiness Book point about setting records.....i didn't mean to sound like I thought he (M) was a successful record setter!.................

But then you just get nastier and nastier and it's like 'Jesus fucking christ! Back off!!!'

or better yet if it would REALLY make you happier.................I'll never bother coming back here again! kissa boo boo? i don't need this shit! how's that dude?

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Date: Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 02:01:11 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: No wonder M often seems an ass-He's reflecting!
Message:
Raina:

It isn't really all *that* hard to be understood, if you want to be. Just stop with all the labyrinthine architectural elaboration, plot twists and attitude reversals. On the other hand, do what you like. I'm sure threatening to storm off and never return will get people really worked up. I'm going to finish adjusting the brakes on my lawn chair bicycle. I can just about do a front wheel stand.

--Scott

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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 12:21:53 (GMT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Raina
Subject: No wonder M often seems an ass-He's reflecting!
Message:
i would tend to doubt that it was 'stupid people' that 'kept' or
inspired maharaji to 'act like he takes himself more seriously than he does.'

I see your point but dont fergit that he comes from a hindu tradition where playing god has all kinds of historical examples and although it is not hard to debunk the whole notion as a misperception of life as it really is, it is not easy for those raised in it to let go of it.

His past was a little too glorious at times and his dreams were too much backed up by having all the people around him take his family illusion as real and believe in his words and concepts.

Point here is for people to have a chance to talk with others and be able to close out the era succesfully and move on freely.
Also, to stand for truth and not let the past be buried or rewritten by 'devotees' and liars like mike dettmers.

prem rawat would lofe to be a hugely successful guru and leave behind a religion with him as the amazing lord of the life and breath who came **amidst opposition** during the kali yuga and was the millenium bright light.

Btter that the truth be available in all its ugly sides and the forum and web site is the only place to stand and say anything in opposition to the rawat family's continued tyranny over others.

He went through his mid life crisis and his don quiote era
and still the game he plays is 'I am the master of life, other people are stupid, there is a fantasy 'experience' that I pretend to show, and I, the master, am indespensible in your life.

By the way, your other post of a couple days ago stuck in my mind
and I'll have to pick out the sentence that I thought nutshelled the main effect that 'm' has on someones life.
EXCEPT if you were someone like mike dettmers who skimmed a lot of money off the dlm racket.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 16:46:49 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: sometimes an ass-because he's reflecting!
Message:
hello-i appreciate that we're all just working stuff out here....I don't mean to criticize that at all...
but like....my whole point about garbage....is missed...like, who is Mike Dettmers and why would you think I need to hear is name anyway...so why am i writing his name? etc.....visions of dump trucks and seagulls on a landfill you know?

you feel like a great person and all...and I'm all for people saying what's on their minds...but it's interesting that of all places! M's rap is making more sense to me hear than ever....I just read someone's comment 'Why don't you go back to him?' and it's like 'Who say's I need to go anywhere!' The comments are too often just plain pointless and antagonistic! (and hatefully unconscious).

I don't need to know anything about M's hardcore hindu upbringing to appreciate that he may have said ONE thing ONCE to me-that very well may have saved my life........people here, out of spite seems like they'd rather find greater respect for people who are no better than M....just out of spite.....do you know what I mean?

how powerful a tool it is to be able to just step back and remember the simplest concept. Not in judgement....but just saying to myself....'These people (M included) don't even know I exist! But why do they tell me all this? why are they screaming so angrily at strangers!'

It's really quite fascinating, if I can just resist duking it out with people who are obviously just looking for an argument etc..... and then-i might have had a bad day-and give in too....sound-off....pointlessly perhaps myself....

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Date: Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 05:45:28 (GMT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: sometimes an ass-because he's reflecting!
Message:
Well, I welcome your comments, On the mike dettmers question,
I do have to say things that are on my mind even thought they arent really directed at the person I posted to.

I find sometimes it is just one sentence in a post that ticks someone off and they respond to what they see represented by that one sentence event though the person who typed it first might not really have even meant it quite how it sounded to the other person.

Also when I read the posts, a lot of the posters know I am reading or others are reading them and they are making comments for the benefit of those long term readers.

I'll have to get your sentence out of that post before it goes to the archives. The one that describes the efffect of prem rawat on a person.

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Date: Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 16:01:44 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: Hey bb (ot)
Message:
If you do organize some kind of ex-premie gathering this summer, please count me in! (per your post below which has scrolled 'under') It is really fun getting together with other ex-es! And I would really like to meet you. You're in CT, right?
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Date: Mon, May 01, 2000 at 04:02:42 (GMT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Hey bb (ot)
Message:
Yes indeed!
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Date: Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 06:18:22 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: sometimes an ass-because he's reflecting!
Message:
you're exactly right.....

(what is prem rawat?)

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Date: Mon, May 01, 2000 at 04:06:09 (GMT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: sometimes an ass-because he's reflecting!
Message:
Why guru maharaj ji!
His name is prem rawat.
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Date: Mon, May 01, 2000 at 16:22:43 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: Is that where 'premie' comes from? (Prem)
Message:
when I write Maharaji i'm saying to myself 'meragie'.
I forget what Maharaji means ('to the light' or something like that?)
Do you feel that word should be protected from Prem's use or what?

Oh! I know what you're saying! It rings in the X's ears having side-effects
on their listening powers? So I should consider referring to him as Prem etc?

Is Prem short for something? Is that where 'Premie' comes from?

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Date: Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 01:38:04 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: What the fuck are you trying to say? (nt)
Message:
yy
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Date: Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 04:15:08 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: That's right Jim! I'm calling you an ass!
Message:
Which part didn't you get? The part about trash? The part about yuck? Heaps of garbage? Seagull shitting on seagulls shitting? Barges hauling off the shit that passes thru you daily? Delusion after delusion that you are so exceptionally clever and a gas to hang with? Are you always spewing the same rap? Always talking never listening.....wanting to be hated by as many people as possible to prove your non-cowardly belief in nothing! so tough! so cool this lone ranger jimbo guy....?
Are you just going through a phase? Are you always looking for an argument with strangers?
Do you become threatening? will you try to turn this into some sort of silly posting war? will you think that i will even care to remember to notice if you respond to this?

I promise to not bother to read anything you write EVER! if you promise to at least not respond to anything i might (as you've left me with a desire to never bother coming here again-uh-no, i don't think you give a shit......) just leave me alone? please go away? I promise to feel sorry for you from as far away as possible....and forever.....and ever....gently and effortlessly forgetting him...i mean jim....

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Date: Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 22:49:54 (GMT)
From: A premie
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: That's right Jim! I'm calling you an ass!
Message:
Jesus, Raina, I just now read this thread alittle. You go girl.
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Date: Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 13:07:44 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: Are you on any particular medication? (nt)
Message:
vv
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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 17:25:30 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: sometimes an ass-because he's reflecting!
Message:
Raina,

It seems to me that you aren't comfortable with argument, disagreement, and hearing all kinds of differing views on the same subject. And it may be that Maharaji's cult was/is attractive to you because it's ENTIRELY a one way discussion. Maharaji says what he says, acts the way he does, and discussion about it, and certainly examination and criticism, isn't allowed. It is nice just to sit and take things in without judging or evaluating them, but then that's what really got me into trouble in Maharaji's cult.

So, here perhaps we have an over-abundance of critical analysis, strong opinions, and all the rest, but a lot of that is a reaction to having taken in bullshit on faith, because we believed Maharaji to be who he claimed to be. By the way, characterizing Maharaji having claimed to be god, having demanded total devotion and surrender, having pushed a monastic order for thousands of people, and his utter failure to even address those problems could hardly be described as mere 'mistakes.' They were indeed, intentional acts, for which he has never taken responsbility.

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Date: Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 00:47:33 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: sometimes an ass-because he's reflecting!
Message:
Oh no-I can be just as argumentative as the next guy.....I guess I've just become so bored with certain things I wish I could cut through stuff-you know like 'pull when pushed' etc.....I can be more manipulative and sinister than the average human being! I'll always win an argument in my own mind!

The things we tell ourselves-that seem to stand the test of time- like the problems with 'second-hand information' for example? I mean M sounds DISGUSTING...if what you've said here is true (not that I don't believe that's your REAL experience)....but I only know what I know about him (since 9/89).....and I could have sworn I heard him own up to the 'ass-backwards ways' he used to do things? I'd heard him put himself down...that was one of his more attractive qualities....(when he got more 'The Master' etc....it didn't seem to me like he was talking ABOUT himself, as it did he was saying he was TRYING to be that connection to what was most divine for us? You might be right....maybe I was apologizing for him....but I don't know....

Believe me-my heart felt broken for a while when he laughed at me-I saw the man-(isn't that just like Dorothy peeking behind the curtain?) .........but there were things said by his mouth that landed in my ears that I cherish.....and..........he never said anything to me (I even listened to tapes and videos) about owing him anything..............i think the only time I ever gave any money-i had the idea in the back of my head that I expected something more back in my wallet sooner than later! you know? like not REALLY giving freely...acting like i was.....

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Date: Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 16:43:32 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: Maharaji's Speaking Tricks
Message:
I could have sworn I heard him own up to the 'ass-backwards ways' he used to do things?

Could have sworn you heard him say that? What, exactly did he say, Raina. It would be news to me, and I can't believe that if he really did something like that, we would have heard that from one of the many premie apologists of his that come here from time to time trying to defend him, but really can't.

I'd heard him put himself down...that was one of his more attractive qualities....(when he got more 'The Master' etc....it didn't seem to me like he was talking ABOUT himself, as it did he was saying he was TRYING to be that connection to what was most divine for us? You might be right....maybe I was apologizing for him....but I don't know...

This is one of the devices Maharaji has always used. He talks about his relationship with his Master. How he just wanted to serve and give his life to HIS Master. Well, HIS master is DEAD!!!! Very convenient isn't it? The message is clear. For all the premies, whose master is HIM, they are supposed to devote, serve and basically give their resources to HIM.

The other thing he does is talk about himself in the third person. He talks about Maharaji and the master as if they are somebody other than himself. It's a trick I think is father probably also used and Maharaji learned to do it at an early age, just like he learned to talk in circles about nothing much in particular, but with a lot of pauses so people think it's profound. He has done all those things since I ever first heard him speak in 1973, and he is still doing it.

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Date: Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 18:39:06 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: I think Ive been blocked from posting!
Message:
M or no M -it seems so obvious that we hear what we want to hear (myself included)....i guess that's why religion has always been such a dangerous game.....no matter how good someone's intentions may be....the stuff that gets in the way.....always does....and people die even.......what a mess....

so i guess i chose to ignore those funky contradictions i'd catch.....and just focus on the stuff that flew....not wanting to waste my energy playing judge....

i caught this little cut once-on a tape from argentina (something love...pretty music...early 90's) he'd just bought some land down there etc....a first time meeting I believe (down there). anyway...he seemed to catch himself from saying something mean and cutting..... 'and believe me it'll get very (pause) hot...he sticks in the word 'beautiful' instead of hot i think.....that threw me....i saw the show then.......it was just ONE little word....but 'he's lying rang loud and long in my ear....'why would he ever lie' you think to yourself.....but i could forgive him (for my own sake). his tricks wren't so hot! But i just dug hearing the things that did 'resonate eternally'............i always saw him as being committed to the imporatnce of reminding peple of those things.....more than the egomaniac other's see/saw......

maybe he should have reminded everyone a LOT more....the importance of being honest with oneself....being most important.......that could have worked for him............whatever....i can't believe i'm still writing............i don't want anymore abuse from some of these people here.....

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Date: Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 02:16:52 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: This writing style looks awfully familiar.
Message:
I think I've seen this writing style crammed full of ellipses before. It's coming back to me.
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Date: Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 19:09:09 (GMT)
From: Jw
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: You have a BRAIN it is for THINKING .. do it.
Message:
so i guess i chose to ignore those funky contradictions i'd catch.....and just focus on the stuff that flew....not wanting to waste my energy playing judge....

Raina, if you don't mind my saying so, this is a very dangerous attitude to have. Those 'funky contradictions' are important because they help you rationally look at what is happening to you. If you just hear what you want to hear and ignore the rest, that's a recipe for really getting into trouble, and makes you a prime target for a destructive cult. It isn't a 'waste of energy' to think.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 06:07:35 (GMT)
From: Raina
Email: None
To: Raina
Subject: Correction: 'Sometimes' not 'often' I should say.
Message:
(nt)
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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 07:50:34 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Raina
Subject: Correction: 'Sometimes' not 'often' I should say.
Message:
I think you said below you had been following M for about 10 years. I assume you're about 30 or older since you've probably had control over your finances for those 10 years.

I'm not going to try to argue with you. Your decisions are for you to make. Most of the people here don't like M. That's our one point of unity.

There are a few different approaches in questioning what you say about M, but I'm struck by your desire to find a reason for him to be a jerk. Maybe he just really is a jerk. But then, what would it mean about something positive you experienced, seemingly under his influence, if he is a jerk? Would it mean that your feeling was false? Or is it possible that your experience was valid but his role was false?

It seems to me, if you feel something it's yours and any other person's role in it is extremely limited. Unless they are a partner of some sort, whether personal or business, I am weary of offering someone dedication, loyalty, tenacity, commitment and any of the longterm assets implied, to someone who does not necessarily even know me.

Your 'insides' are your own. Why let someone convince you that they know more about who you are than you do? The most they can have is a technique. Doesn't M have a tremendous amount to gain by convincing people that he is a source for their own self?

We've seen him for years, lying his way through his own promises and changing his tune to beat the heat he is under. Have you suffered financially in trying to see him or to seek 'knowledge'? He hasn't suffered financially in suppposedly trying to help you. He has gained considerably. Is there some reason or necessity for this divide? Why can't he look after people who are so drawn to him?

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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 17:13:14 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Correction: 'Sometimes' not 'often' I should say.
Message:
The message I got from M (loud and clear) was 'don't get too close'. But the message from the 'instructors' was 'beg' etc......so for lots of reasons, (that no one would find as interesting as I would myself!) i played along.

When M looked right into my eyes once and said 'Are you sure?' and I answered 'Yes.' I totally lied....because I was also thinking in my brain somewhere 'What the hell is going on?'.....I don't give him credit for catching me! Or maybe I do....I remember seeing these brain dead people (who also had lied!) walking into their little session with M and feeling slightly tortured! What does he want from me!!!? but now i see it for what it was i guess....i'm poor because I've never had a true friend in my life....not because M took my money...(although I do feel like the loss of my NYC lease had a connection to something to do with the organization...?)

I totally had alterior motives....lots of them....some more or less sincere than others....when I asked to 'recieve' (which i never 'did'!).

Is it that someone like 'Jim' (? it's hard to keep the names of faceless strangers straight!) torments you (Why don't you just go back' etc) because people used to go thru such humiliation to 'recieve'...so much so it did great harm to them emotionally? ...if so that really sucks...and I guess that explains the hatred for the guy (M). ('Unasked for advice is ALWAYS a sign of hostility'-nothing is more true-no matter how subtle). But like you said that is what 'unites' you here I guess? so it's self-imposed!?!

There was a quote on another page about M talking about how hard it is to be 'rich' etc Did you read it? The person is HOPING for otheres to interpret it the way HE does....exactly...and i can see it his way...but i also see that M was just trying to describe how fucked up our society is...how cut throat it is...that even tons of money doesn't keep you safe...because people are always lurking, to steal from you and worse........and that seems true........SO true....

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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 18:08:58 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: Correction: 'Sometimes' not 'often' I should say.
Message:
I can't speak for Jim and wouldn't want to try to. As far as what goes on here, I would say it's complex. I personally don't like to diss premies who show up at the site. Sometimes they act like pests but I don't see that in what you're doing. You seem to be caught in the middle for now- not a premie and not quite an ex.

I personally think meditation is worth pursuing if you are sure you want to BUT not at the expense of your physical well-being. I admit, I don't think M is concerned in the slightest with your safety or well-being, but it's your life- your choice. When you nonchalantly discuss losing a lease because of your involvement (the implication being it wasn't too bad) I see a flashing red light.

In the old days we were urged on through financial and survival hazards on the basis that M was actually the Lord of the Universe. Grace will come, we were told. What you're describing somehow sounds exactly the same. Someone who cared about you, or at least felt some responsibilty toward you (even from a distance) would be trying to safeguard against your financial ruin. Instead it's presented as a possible occupational hazard you are being taught to accept so you can continue your 'progress'.

If you don't have many friends, you're in more danger in a financial crunch. You're also more susceptible to claims of love from someone with whom you will most likely never have any significant human contact. Yes, you're feeling something, but how does it compare to what your own goals would be?

Meditation can good, but it's probably NOT your life's dream of
happiness. Your dreams MAY include meditation, but they undoubtedly DO include friends, love, and some kind of career or material goals. You may not like the confrontational atmosphere here but surely feel a need to think for yourself and not accept a packaged version of your own happiness with someone else's face on it.

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Date: Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 01:34:06 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Runamok/Raina
Subject: Raina
Message:
Great post, Run. Raina, I am sorry to see that people here are giving you a hard time while you are trying to express your point of view. There are some great people here, including those who have been giving you a hard time on this thread. But you are right, it is not acceptable to discuss anything positive about M here at times. And that is a shame. Because plenty of positive stuff occurred with all of us when we were involved with M. Certainly we all yearned for something more than the typical American (or material) dream, which is why we all still gravitate to one another I am sure. there were some good times. I personally did not find his satsangs to be all that insightful, but I do agree with you that there is something to be said for listening to, and trying to understand, people. And although I did not ever hear Maharaji address that, I agree with those values. I also agree with you that people tend to project their own not-resolved bugaboos onto others, but again, I can't remember ever hearing M address that sentiment (in fact I recently read it in a John Cleese book).
Anyway feel free to email people off line if you wish.

Helen

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Date: Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 06:12:51 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Jesus Christ the Kidnapped
Message:
ya it's so weird....when people seem to be purposely misunderstanding.........i don't know why i have this recurring desire to try to clarify....to try to connect....but it's not for M's sake! (as I keep being accused!) .....not even really with people(?) as much as ANY sort of intelligence in general coming together in some way...any way........something simple, not trying to impress.... and then from that point.........something is really communicated, as opposed to pretending it is...............ok! now that I have no idea what i've just said here!

It's been a long time since I read 'Slapstick' by kurt Vonnegut. But there's a hilarious scene in the book-in a church called 'The church of Jesus Christ the kidnapped'.........not to belittle anyone's painful M experiences.........but when I'd hear stories about the 'Intensive Care Units/Ashrams', (as I've heard them called) I would be reminded of that funny scene.......(not that I wasn't a few times an intensive candidate myself!)...

But I always heard M emphasizing 'breaking away' from all the things that imprison us (even 'the stick and carrot game he was playing'......so..........when you might read someone's stories from 'the early daze' i can't help but wonder if it's their own fault (sometimes)...........?i don't know.......only mean to be asking-not judging...........

I did once hear an old tape from the 70's.......i was like 'what does he mean by the me-master sounding shit here!' (can't remember the exact words)...............ok...i know...........i'm going to go dig that tape up and listen to it............to help build sympathy here!

thanks for sort of hearing me................one more rare occurence in my life!
sorry about your recent loss...........death sucks................

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Date: Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 13:31:40 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: reconciliation with the whole strange trip
Message:
Hey raina,
I think that the need to be understood is normal and human, so the fact that you keep trying to clarify and discuss seems perfectly understandable to me. This is going to sound really corny, but we all long for human connection. Why else would I post to a bunch of 'virtual' strangers that my sister in law died last night? because I want to share, connect with others.

I love Vonnegut, BTW, he is really funny. As far as M talking about breaking away from the things that imprison us,it seems absolutely possible to me that you found something in value from some of M's satsangs. I think that many many people found something in his message valuable. Me, I wan't even really listening, the whole experience was too overwhelming.

It is also interesting that you remember him including the carrot and stick game he was playing with us, as one of the things we were imprisoned by. So in other words, he was behaving as a real 'spiritual teacher' at that moment. (my words, not yours). My problem with it, is that the information came too fast and furiously, that it was hard to sort out what was of actual positive value and what was b.s. Between all the hype about festivals and all the premies giving satsang, and M himself reinforcing the stick and carrot game, it was overwhelming to me. Perhaps if I had been meditating more, I could have better found the value in it.

I think what you are saying is that being a meditating premie, and having a certain distance from M and all the hubbub around him, it was/is possible to find much of value. In my opinion, the big part of that formula working is having 'distance from Maharaji.' IMO, the value comes/came from you being a self-reflective, open person. The value comes from the meditating, the contemplating, the attempt to be open and to not judge people or events at face value, but to try to see them on a deeper level. The thing is, unlike you, I never felt that those kinds of values were reinforced by M. I guess I never loved him. I always felt like he was actually interfering with my freedom and my growth and development, and I resented him. I didn't want to do service to him, I wanted to do service for other people and for a broader idea of God. I think M did a great misservice by focussing on himself so much rather than focussing on helping his followers find their strength from within themselves.

I am very clear about this now, I don't struggle with it anymore, because I never loved M. But I know many ex-es who really loved Maharaji and find it hard to resolve all the pieces. I think that is the hardest thing , they genuinely loved him and gave their heart and commitment to him. And now they are trying to figure out what it all meant. It is easy to just be angry and hate Maharaji (which is a necessary stage of any process of separation) but it is harder to move to the next stage of trying to figure out what parts were good and which were bad. To analyze it and come away with some sort of reconciliation with the whole experience. I think an important part of reconciliation and evolution, as a human, is to honestly figure out what was of value in the experience, and was terrible or even abusive, or morally wrong about it (and I do think that what m did/does is abusive and immoral).

But it is also important, as you have said, to acknowledge one's own role in the whole thing, as you have said. I know I was very immature and quite shallow in my quest for spirituality at that time in my life, so I guess I got the guru I deserved. I don't say that to denigrate myself but just to say: I wanted the 'quick and dirty' route to enlightenment and that was certainly what M was selling. The quick bliss fix.

WE have to figure it out for ourselves, and it certainly isn't easy, take care
Helen

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Date: Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 08:20:34 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: reconciliation with the whole strange trip
Message:
That's really true. Realising he really didn't love me back was really hard to get and very tedious to completely let go of.

Bullseye!

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Date: Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 13:53:11 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Run/Raina
Message:
COmbining a post here. Run, thanks for your comments. Also, Raina, have been thinking about the time you (Raina) described in your post, the time when there was such a sense of synchronicity in your life. A time of so-called 'grace.' I remember that time as well, but it was scary also. (I didn't realize I was scared until later). My boundaries were so thin, people actually could see it in my eyes. One friend looked in my eyes and beseeched me to 'be careful.' He could sense that there was a recklessness there, that I was becoming out of touch with reality, it scared him.

I just don't think we can live like that all the time. Maybe for you it felt really good and peaceful, to me it felt scary, that sense of 'surrendering' and being 'pure' and 'open'. To me is was opening too much, and letting in everything without discrimination. It was a dangerous time. Opening up to so much satsang, which aspirants were browbeaten into doing, was part of this process of thinning out a person's boundaries so much that they are practically incapable of taking care of themselves. And then, they would be judged for 'freaking out'? It was cruel. ALl their personal boundaries are stripped away and then they are beaten down for not 'having their act together,' for 'spacing out.' That is why we systematically have to teach children about personal boundaries,they are so trusting and there are predators out there who would take advantage of that.

I remember hearing Joni Mitchell talking about that time in her life when her boundaries were so thin that she couldn't protect herself, you can hear it in her early songs. Then she became stronger and you can see it in her lyrics, and her musics, she is like a solid core of Kryptonite now!! The old songs are beautiful (she was always a musical genius, IMO) but you can hear the pain.

ANyway, I do have moments of synchronicity now when things are flowing along and I meet amazing people, etc, but at some point you have to go home and feed the dog. I mean, it can't last forever, otherwise you do turn back into a child and become vulnerable to a degree that is not healthy, IMO. So don't worry you are not missing anything by not being a practicing premie! You can still have all the good connected feelings without out it (knowledge), and still take care of yourself and your responsibilities too!

Do you feel a little wistful that you never received 'the knowledge of all knowledges'? Do you fantacize that your life would be better if you had it? Believe me, it's not all that. A good therapist, a good exercise program, a healthy diet, and some sort of healthy spiritual belief (if you're inclined that way) worked better for me in the long run!

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Date: Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 17:43:41 (GMT)
From: Raina
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: happy sadness
Message:
Ya-you hit the nail on the head.........friends look at you like you're going 'too far' etc.
That was it exactly. But I lost them.....as I lost myself. So much damage was done that it's truly irreversible. With family too.....and it's amazing how alone I am..............I really don't know what I did to alienate EVERYONE i've ever met! (most of the time i don't know that is.) Maybe that's what brought me here?

About the kewl 'grace' that seduced me? Ya I felt the danger too, just as you said you did.....(once I even heard M himself admit 'YOU GOT TO PUT ON THE BRAKES SOMETIMES!') But it was something I couldn't turn off. It felt worse to put the brakes on! So my creedo just remained 'Trust'........and enjoy the ride. My way of 'giving thanx' was to just grow (as best I could-no pressure mind you- from myself!) in consciousness.

The way you've reminded me about putting up walls (their necessity for personal safety from the predators) is much appreciated. But at this point in my life I'm so gone anyway....that I really can't seem to find the need to bother!

No I don't feel like I missed anything by never 'recieving' the techiniques (i admit a slight cuiosity-but ACTUALLY! i think i did hear someone rant them off once-and then i thought 'That's why M said It's best to wait for him to explain it' Because it didn't sound so mysterious etc....!...... as I came to meet M during what seems a less crazy time. I can honestly say that in total, maybe 4 weeks (all together) in about 3 years of 'following' him did I really 'zombie' out........but I have to admit I was smoking pot pretty non-stop in those daze too! (But i wasn't always...that's another theory!)

I'm really sorry to hear how horrible it was in the early years......maybe there is a subtle 'you'd have to be idiots' tone mixed into my ramblings that was pissing people off? I don't know....if so....I'm no better than 'JIM'!

Ya the synchronicity's still there for me too! I guess that was my point about wasting energy hating M-because I never heard him ask me for anything (credit or money etc).

But my loss (as I tried to share) had to do with my mishandling of some great things that seemed to be happening for me back then-Jim was implying that I was 'star-struck and stupified' but I was trying to tell him.....that it was intensely wonderful, to suddenly find myself playing music with people I'd grown up listening to! I was PURSUED by people most people would be star-struck by.........AND IT SCARED ME! the 'great' artists sometimes had heroine problems....or acted like they were 'in love' with me...as if maybe I was being decieved etc...it was hard to tell...so that was were M came in........

so what I held on to (often times) for feelings of inner security were (again-OFTEN times) M's words......it was like a force field! And I guess I scared them away! It worked? Who knows? At that time I just needed one good friend...but I was too busy scaring everyone away!?......should I blame M for that?....I wanted to try to figure out why that never happened...i THINK it had something to do with M...............on one level i felt like i was flying-but on the other.....I was afraid of what I had had my eyes opened up to!

Catching people in ANY little lies etc....THAT was my sign from god to move on... so I thought (and still do sort of).....And I 'moved on' from the best! I tried to NEVER lie...that was my 'practice'......(obviously it's almost impossible-so if you can imagine?) Can you imagine the kind of trouble that comes from speaking one's mind all the time....for example it's impossible to keep a job (that you hate anyway!) So I just figured I would be shown my destiny if I didn't stand for ANYONE's bullshit.....

I really believed that 'art' sucked because artists gave into their excitement too quickly and easily.........I was BROKE! ButI was living in Mansions sometimes! What the hell. I thought I had so much going for myself that I had a responsibility NOT to just settle for ANYTHING! (so bold and with not a dime to my name!...so crazy......)
For example I met, Jonathan Demme. He offered me a job. He asked me to 'stay in NY because they needed a babysitter'! But i was a songwriter! So I said 'no'....This was someone whom I had great respect for-but I didn't want to 'use' him, the way people in the industry typically do........ pretending to be taking care of his new baby (the most important job anyone could do for him really! what could be more flattering) but when I REALLY wanted to be writing music? No! -and I thought he would appreciate that. (when I called him about a year later for a favor-he barely remembered me! oh well...) But I'm not sorry that I didn't play those gross people using games-that I'm convinced is why there's no real 'art' in the mainstream anymore (slight exaggeration?) Was this impatience? I don't think so.....

THAT was one example of what I thought 'following my heart' meant. I was being true to myself AND other people...... you understand that? SO many people would DO ANYTHING to even have 2 minutes of his time etc for the kinds of connections that come from knowing him even a little etc.....but I thought I would be using him! I was convinced that I had my own muse I needed to be devoted to......life was short.........and even though I was BROKE!!! I went on 'MY PATH' believeing that if such wonderful people were appreciating me-it was a calculated risk really! and only a matter of time before I turned the entertainment industry on it's ear....(NOT to be famous or rich...maybe respected...but only because I really was on a mission-and I did get to see a lot of my ideas take off....for OTHERS.....that's my dilema....That's what I have a hard time understanding.....how I ended up beaten by police! raped by an employer! later on foodstamps! total tragedy.......)

That way of thinking (hearing people's lies) became a HUGE obstacle for me...BECAUSE people want to KILL you if you catch them in a lie sometimes! They think you need to be taught a lesson! They want to laugh while you go under for being so righteous! if someone lied to me (no matter how innocently) I would cross them off.....I really believed i was just keeping my time for things I could trust 100%....but i was HATED for it............THAT'S why I'm here..........I'm just NOT that hateable!

Shit! I promised myself I wasn't going to go into this-Everyone has let me know they DON'T want to hear it..............(It's so sad...as wonderful as you sound...the 'mechanism' kicks in warning me that you are just another 'master manipulator' at some point.....(I get the feeling you understand what Im trying to say w/o taking that the wrong way? I hope.)

Last thing-I probably could have made this a lot shorter by just expounding on your Joni Mitchell point-because THAT was EXACTLY what was going on..........BUT........the only albums I like (love) of hers are from those early years I think (Blue, Court and Spark)......not because I like sadness....i just LOVE honesty and openess....and in my warped mind, i guess I imagine a world where, if everyone were more like that, it would soften the blows in the end...........I guess I was willing to sacrifice my own life for a 'higher good' that M was just a small part of.....I'm sorry I can't despise him enough for everyone..........and when 'they' all read that as meaning that I am singing his praises (which I am not), ironically it makes me understand his plight( or I feel sorry for him)....Because I've been there........having SO much hatred projected on me, sometimes for saying absolutely nothing! But people hear what they want..........and in that loneliness I guess you find the only constant things that you can really count on-that are always there etc.......

Im guilty of being really sloppy in my communiques-by not being more clear etc.... so I can't be too disappointed...with people....I'm trying to say too much quickly-and by leaving things out it's not clear.......................i was going to delete this.......but fuck it..........who cares?

nice 2 meet you helen.

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Date: Mon, May 01, 2000 at 00:54:38 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Raina
Subject: happy sadness
Message:
Hey raina
yes I like the depressing songs too, and depressing books. My book club teases me about this. But I don't want to BE depressed, I got sick of it. And I don't want to be alone, so I had to accept that people have faults, people lie, all people have 'trips', no one is pure. It seems to me that your quest for purity in yourself and others resulted in your being alone. In Alanon I learned about accepting life on life's terms, and it's so hard to do that. I am still struggling, my life is unmanagable at times, but I don't want to be alone and shut myself off, I don't want to chronically either blissed out or in pain--those are not the only two choices, black and white thinking is the culprit.There's a full range of emotion in being a human being, those people who lied to you were not all bad. Please don't put me on a pedestal, as if I am the only one here who understands, because that is not true. Most people here want to understand one another but the forum can be a harsh place too, and you have to be tough to hang out here, you have to have a strong ego.

Ok, enough said, take care raina.

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Date: Mon, May 01, 2000 at 03:50:01 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: heart of hearing
Message:
no-i certainly don't want to be 'alone and shut myself off'....it's just what happened.
But as sad as that is-I prefer it to 'pretending' and faking smiles (which of course I still find myself doing sometimes....as that's how people communicate and all).

Anyway-I've said too much! Thanx for trying to hear me.

p.s. I think 'Heart of Hearing' would make a great book title!.........(get it? 'hard of hearing'?)
(a year from now it'll either be some bad made for TV movie....or a Maharaji Video! too bad for me!)

The only joy I have left is in coming up with groovy ideas......and I put them out into the universe for people and see where they end up.......I always used to believe people would give each other credit/recognition.. Now I 'know' better - It's a shame. I'm convinced that that atmosphere of 'theft' (in the art/entertainment world as well as religion!) is at the core of all the growing insanity of late...

It may sound crazy? But I notice when 'Saturn' and 'Dodge' steal their ad campaign ideas from Volkswagen........it's not crazy at all though.......all that money in the wrong wannabe grubbing hands.......affects all of our lives.....like the weather........

don't feel obliged to reply
(i'm not putting you on a pedestal...? why would I?)
take care

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Date: Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 18:06:32 (GMT)
From: A premie
Email: None
To: Helen and raina
Subject: This thread
Message:
You two are the most intelligent, evolved people (women?) on here. What a pleasure to find this thread.
I'm really just so pleased you both are around.
Just started a couple days ago above, hadn't found you down here.
Thank you.
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Date: Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 14:12:16 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: A premie
Subject: This thread
Message:
Thanks but please don't put me on a pedestal.

Seriously, I am skeptical when premies come here and flatter people here, exalting them so highly. It seems to be a premie characteristic to engage in hyperbole.

There are many women here who have self-actualized (whatever term you want to use). But perhaps their message is one that you don't want to hear. Anyway, I don't mean to be hostile or defensive, it is just that I am wary of being put on a pedestal by premies, it seems like it is a short trip to the floor! ANd if your compliment was truly sincere, and you still like me after you read all the vitriol that I sometimes write regarding the 'Lard', then I apologize for being so defensive.

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Date: Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 14:45:52 (GMT)
From: A premie
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: This thread
Message:
Helen,
No problem. Vitriol's ok. It's just refreshing to read an intelligent post. Whether I agree or not makes no difference to me. I haven't picked up anything close to the little-boy-obnoxious-got-to-have-the-last-word-type of post that I read here - from you.
That alone I respect. OK - no pedestal, I understand.

A premie

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Date: Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 17:42:47 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Just Say Know!
Message:
something was probably protecting you? (translation for the die hard cynix:she was proteceting herself ok!)

when you say you weren't even listening, and that it was overwhelming etc. some sort of safety mechanism was kicking in no? it's hard to hear with all the noise of people DEEP in ecstatic experience running around (or sitting) imposing their 'love' on others.

I mean that's why 'Religion' is such a lucrative business...human beings NEED to have that ecstatic experience somewhere! MOST are guaranteed to have it!...especially if you know how to bring them to it etc.....and the majority of people are easy because it's such a child-like, innocent, trusting thing....that's why it's so criminal to take advatage etc.....and such an IRONIC shame that people do.......it's actually something that does need to happen and so will-somehow..............but your heart was talking over all the 'well-meaning' noise perhaps....protecting you it seems doesn't it? And afterall it's gotta be better NOT to have something SO important than to have it wrong! (I was so eager to say that to you-I didn't yet finish all you wrote yet!) (I remember M talking about over-eager instructors-once give 'K' to someone on a bouncy train....he worried (jokingly) that they would always bounce during their meditation experience etc.........So i igured that's what he meant by 'look past that'..........i mean he knows he's playing with fire........it's dangerous...........

(Warning to Readers: The following, like the proceeding, may be lacking in clarity...so don't read it if you're looking for someone to pounce on, beat up, and abuse!)

BTW (Helen)-I used the 'carrot and the sick' example only because it was easier (more 'CONVENIENT! so I thought!') to try make my point. But interestingly enough (?) I NEVER heard those words from M. THAT was something I always heard from the instructors!!!..........I really wanted to use the example of 'the bird in a cage' etc because that was something I ACTUALLY heard M say..........but I felt that was going to be much more wordy! (using my defective brain instead of my heart-for a short cut? But my heart can't type. Or can it?)

It's all so crazy isn't it? As hard as we try-it seems we'll ALWAYS fall short of total understanding when relying on words. But it IS exciting when we have moments that are closer than others....it really is a thrill when minds connect........(almost makes you believe in eternity sometimes....)

Im not defending M!!!!!! but again, his words....about an untouched canvas.......seemed to me, an ATTEMPT, on his part, to TRY to help people become aware of all the baggage getting in the way of our ability to hear each other! hear something FRESHLY (ya, Oliver, I know that's not a word-unlike you, Helen gives me poetic liscense! What are you doing here anyway? I'm talking to helen!)...

I was just driving to the post office, and I was thinking about the 'mind of a child' concept....and the way some people posting here are so 'NaNaNaNaNa!' and how people sound as if they DESPERATELY want to embarrass each other, make people feel pain (all you hard core S&M types won't want to bother reading on here. You're out of my league!)

but anyway.....as children we just don't understand where malice comes from..... and it hit me how impossible it is to control all that influences our minds....ok, this may be hard to explain, so don't feel obliged to stay with me here!.... but....it struck me that even the most 'accomplised' well-educated best-of-the-bunch folk are just as often completely misguided...if only because they were motivated by those kids who made fun of them to 'PROVE' themselves etc....choices made from hurt instead of heart. When M talked about 'listening to the heart' I heard the word 'destiny'. And instead of spelling 'pray' with an 'a'...It hit me that it may has well be 'prey' with an 'e'! Because if we're not 'where we're supposed to be' it's the difference between life and death (Night of the Living Dead!!!!)....I mean I even took this to the point where I didn't believe that ALL human beings are meant to be here etc............but that can get pretty heavy....way too heavy....those are GOD thoughts!.........really! I guess that's the kind of thinking that drives people to murder etc....(the opposite of 'mind of a child' etc!)

But again...it's ALL so fucked up......we're screwed from the start! So that was why M made sense to me (most of the time).....my breath might be the only thing in the whole world I could trust............and it might be 70 years before I made ONE true friend! Or maybe for ONE second felt my true destiny! (only to find out I was wrong again!) Then there's the breath, and the reminder that I don't have to torture myself with the world's contradictions...all there is to do really is maintain consciousness....

M was probably a whole new show when I first heard him in September 1989........but......well I had to tell you this before I had a chance to finish your entire post........so im going back to read that!

If anyone cares: I haven't been to hear M in about 10 years.....and I never recieved M's 'knowledge'...................'Just say Know!'

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Date: Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 15:06:28 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Do you really believe that, Helen?
Message:
But it is also important, as you have said, to acknowledge one's own role in the whole thing, as you have said. I know I was very immature and quite shallow in my quest for spirituality at that time in my life, so I guess I got the guru I deserved. I don't say that to denigrate myself but just to say: I wanted the 'quick and dirty' route to enlightenment and that was certainly what M was selling. The quick bliss fix.

WE have to figure it out for ourselves, and it certainly isn't easy

I would imagine you'll always be confused about this trip so long as you cling to certain assumptions, namely that there is such a thing as enlightenment in the first place and also that Rawat had anything of value to teach. Helen, unless you buy the idea that we must somehow distance ourselves from our minds, every last idea Rawat promulgated was destructive. Even unquestionably good values, like love, peace and happiness, whatever credit one could ever give for such hackneyed sermon topics, were distorted and ruined by the time he got through with them.

You talk about reconciliation, well I feel like I've completely reconciled with the trip. It was a trap. One big trap. Could have got anybody; it just happened to get me.

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Date: Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 17:57:47 (GMT)
From: Raina
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Jim: Do you really believe that, Helen?
Message:
I probably should just stay out of this.....but I had to comment....
It's amzing how much energy Jim puts into trying to impose HIS way of seeing things...
I wonder what it really means (don't worry Jim-I don't worry for long!)
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Date: Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 18:59:42 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Raina
Subject: Look who's talking??
Message:
If I understand you right (no mean feat, I'm sure) you never got Knowledge. You never had the pleasure of even being a premie. So who the fuck are you to tell me how much energy I should or shouldn't put in this admitted 'campaign'? You sound like the very kind of new age person -- premie or not -- I've gorwn to despise. Welcome.
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Date: Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 21:14:59 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I don't know shit and I'm proud of it!
Message:
Jim-
For all you know, my name is really Trent Reznor, or Bill Graham.....you are obviously intelligent enough to get your brain around the idea that YOU CAN'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT ME!- at least-is my point...I don't waste my time conjuring up an image of you, only to waste more time spitting at it! publicly no less!..........I'm not claiming to have any answers....i was just trying to point out how difficult it is for people to HEAR each other.

(For the first time in about 5 years, and the last time b4 that was YEARS ago too...)-i just threw on a tape from M's earlier daze (1977 is as early as I can get-but keep in mind I didn't hear of him until 1989)...just to get an idea about how much more deceptive he was back then etc....

'...they'll shake hands with you. They'll try to be nice to you. They'll throw on a few extra lines that they don't need to. And yet you can feel that they don't mean that. You really really sincerely feel that they don't mean that...' -m

Wasn't he talking about his own instructors? THAT'S what I hear anyway....

I mean that sort of thing goes on here to...it goes on everywhere...there's ALWAYS an element of 'popularity' that tricks us into feeling things we aren't really feeling for ourselves....'safety in numbers' even if it's only ONE other person agreeing with you...it feels more accomplished, or validated...it feels recieved. 10-4

For all I know Maharaji was a secret weapon of the Indian government to gain access to atomic secrets!!!

I don't know shit! But I'm proud of it!
I feel more like Jane Goodall observing human beings....I have nothing to prove.....
(BTW (not that it matters but) I always used to say that WAY before that really funny IBM commercial in 1996 (?) and before the more recent Atom Erogen's (sp) Automobile (Jeep or GM?) TV ad etc..)

Once in a 'meeting' in Marina Del Ray (1990) with a fat lady named Rosie (intstructor)....i was (slightly) reprimanded for using the word 'Instinct' when asked what i thought 'k' was.
'Instinct has NOTHING to do with it!' interrupted Rosie.....

And you know! when I heard M speak a few weeks later he actually used the word 'instinct' in describing someone's pursuit of 'K' etc.....(before you laugh-just try to hear me out?) This sort of thing is best left not discussed....but fuck it....I'm gong to try....

You're the last person I should be confiding this to...but since I'm on the subject....When film titles like 'Basic Instinct' would come out a couple years after that..........(mind you 'instinct' is just ONE example of hundreds of shared ideas I gave in meetings etc) I really imagined that Maharaji and 'knowledge' were a kind of think tank!.........(PLEASE don't insult me about this...........believe me I don't need to be told how nuts this sounds..........) good ideas...catchy ideas...necessary ideas always start somewhere...and the fact that we are REALLY bad at giving each other credit doesn't make someone 'crazy' for simply trying to point something difficult to explain out....

and so I fell into this weird way of seeing myself as a part of this....group of people in the pusuit of kewl justice..............social brain surgery...a slow process that takes patience!

for example....it was an election year. I very much wanted to see George Bush destroyed, ( I hate politix but know the reality...they're not going away etc). I mean through M, i was introduced to someone who gave Major money to Reagan/Bush people....and I may have actually had an influence in changing that ONE person's mind around later on! ya so what!........But I saw everyone as being a part of trying to set things right and really felt contented by the notion ..........I measured as much as I could against 'the universal' in general....as it is IMPOSSIBLE to know right and wrong most of the time.....

shit! please don't make me regret just trying to get at something here.....

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Date: Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 21:27:12 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: Okay, Raina, this is the best I can do
Message:
You're right. A lot of your ideas sound nuts. But, as you yourself make that point as well as I could, I won't belabour it. I'll just ask you if you think you could possibly settle down a bit and say as clearly as possible what it is you think you're trying to 'get at'.

I will say something else though. You're wrong that this medium makes it impossible to know each other. In fact, that's got to be a laugh for people who've spent much time here. This isn't physical personal contact but it's something real. After a while you get a sense of the personalities, histories, opinions and attitudes of the others. That is unless they're intentionally throwing up smoke screens. Most exes are fairly candid here and we get to know each other naturally as a result. Most premies aren't so candid but choose to cloak themselves in various mantles of obscurity. You can play it either which way. Your call.

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Date: Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 04:28:58 (GMT)
From: Raina
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Barton Fink
Message:
Maybe I was saying it's impossible to TOTALLY know each other?...obviously we must be getting something from each other or we wouldn't be here...........'i was just trying to point out how difficult it is for people to HEAR each other.' was what i said here exactly....

anyway-all the 'nutty idea' sharing was an attempt at telling you about how MY brain was processing and being seduced into the M experience.............there was a 'practical' element in it for me, as opposed to the more acceptable 'zombie prepie' mindset....and I really believed I was putting my energy into working towards a higher good....for example trying to take things like Yoga into the mainstream (I'm sure you'll need to argue that was a bad thing but guess what? It happened!...) Im such a STUPID FUCKING ASSHOLE for imaginning such ridiculousness! working towards a more peaceful world...oh if i only could be more like you!

How is my seeing the whole M thing as a 'think tank w/o walls' any more 'nuts' than other's fatalistic surrender to total nothingness at the feet of a nine year old boy?

It's ALL nuts....But you think I should be feeling more nuts than others? When you ask me if I'm on medication? That would be for the purpose of...? Making me sad? Hurting my feelings? Yes that line of thinking is SO much more sane...

If I were to tell you the kinds of things that happened to me after hearing M for the first time...you would REALLY think I was nuts........and so why bother? I'll shut up....let's talk about Elian! Or Rudy G's new sympathy-building campaign strategy...

'Effortless' became my favorite word when I was 'a follower'. And when I hadn't a penny to my name....but someohow....I would for example, simply step out of my house and stick out my thumb to hitch a ride to a meeting in Santa Monica, and10 seconds later, Keanu Reeves stops to give me a lift TO THE DOOR! (with his assistant driving-so don't make some sick joke please) 'Effortless' was exactly what it was....Everyone made fun of me for taking the bus in LA! But I made friends on the bus! It was a gas! ....and that's what it was like for me for the 9 mos I lived in LA..............Everyday conversations with people who were practicing some form of brain surgery thru the media ........INTELLIGENTSIA! People share ideas and influence each other! What's so nuts about that? M's word's helped calm my heart down from beating so fast when I would have meetings with Capitol records exec's...(when you go from NYC waitress to meetings at Capitol records you have to pinch yourself a little....it's kinda unsettling).

It's not like I thought M sent Reeves to pick me up-I'm just explaining that there was an atmosphere of 'Barton Fink' going on...that sucked me in....used me up....and spit me out....I believe the industry term is 'strip-mining'................and I could write out a list of UNBELIEVABLE encounters....but this is obviously not the place...nor are you the one to share such things with.

Too bad....

I don't expect you hear me clearly...you've obviously considered that I'm not even talking to you! And you would be right! I'm just trying to figure shit out...out loud.....

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Date: Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 05:30:05 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Raina
Subject: Figure things out
Message:
Why on this board where you have already encountered so much conflict? Do you talk much to other premies? Do you feel M can't help you figure things out anymore?
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Date: Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 06:48:55 (GMT)
From: Raina
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: Yes mam. Right away.
Message:
Re: 'Why here...?
Uh. sorry i'm not as worthy of posting as everyone else?

I guess cause you're all just so damn interesting? How's that?
Quick and easy enough for you?

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Date: Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 12:16:04 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Raina
Subject: Oops.
Message:
I think you mis-interpreted me. Really, I would like to know, of all the places and people to think things through...this has gotta be one of the toughest...I truly wonder why here is where you chose.
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Date: Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 07:46:46 (GMT)
From: Raina
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: Ok-it's like this
Message:
When you have stomach cancer, and shit blood so frequently-it makes it hard to get out.

And Frankly-People like Jim (for example) make the anticipation of death much more comfortable and even appealing really!............

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Date: Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 13:57:56 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Raina
Subject: Ok-it's like this
Message:
Do you really have stomach cancer? That would explain alot--the certain sense of resignation in your posts. SOrry to hear it, my husband just went through a bout of radiation for eye cancer. How is your prognosis? Have you researched it--via the NCI website, and looked up the clinical trials on your type of cancer? I found that to be really helpful. Do you have a doctor you can trust?

sorry to hear this, take care,
Helen

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Date: Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 22:18:35 (GMT)
From: Raina
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Ok-it's like this
Message:
I have had a seriously chronic stomach problem for almost 10 years-that has never been properly diagnosed...I'm convinced if it's not cancer yet, it will be.........no I don't have a doctor I can trust (or afford esp w/o any insurance etc.)
.......so for feeling guilty that Ive mislead you somehow, by summing up my illness with that most scary word 'cancer'..........I feel obliged to tell you so.........hope you're not TOO disappointed.

When you say 'that explains a lot'..............nah...forget it...........

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Date: Mon, May 01, 2000 at 04:18:23 (GMT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Raina
Subject: Ok-it's like this
Message:
Hi Raina,
Sorry to hear about your somach.
Might I suggest drinking more water and also getting some essential oil pills.

Omega 3, 6 and 9 combined into one pill daily.
Please consider it.
Also a vitamin/mineral pill.

More water!

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Date: Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 12:19:33 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Raina
Subject: People like Jim
Message:
you might find are the best for you to take seriously.
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Date: Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 05:27:09 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Raina
Subject: Okay, I've got it now -- you're a rock star
Message:
Funny how dated that sounds, though. 'Rock Star'? Please!

Raina, did I ever tell you about the time I had lunch at the Ivy on Pacific and sat next to ... who was it? Charlie Sheen's brother .... Emilio Esta???? and Rebecca de Mornay? The next time I walked down for a light lunch I sat next to Chevy Chase. After lunch I walked over and congratulated him on some movie he'd never been in. It was all a joke, him saying that I was mistaken and me insisting that I'm not an idiot and he wa sdefinitely in that movie! We both had a good laugh over it, me and Chevy. And yes you could feel the grace. Mind you, who needs grace at times like that?

Now here's what's funny. You keep posting here and people really will get to know you and vice versa. Not sure if that interests you but it's a cold, hard fact.

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Date: Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 07:00:44 (GMT)
From: Raina
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Okay, I've got it now -- I'm an asshole
Message:
Apparently not Jim...you'll never know me.......the only thing that's cold and hard is you.........and no I'm not interested.............

I guess I would sound like I was name-dropping to you...........you missed the whole point......(no surprise).......I'll surely know better than to waste my time now..........

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Date: Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 15:37:09 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Do you really believe that, Helen?
Message:
Jim I did get something of value from the people I met as a premie. that was about the only thing of value that I got.I was referring to raina's reference to a particular satsang that she remembers getting value out of, and I think there are alot of premies who do/did find something of value in M's satsangs. Yes, I found the whole trip to be destructive also. It is hard to figure out if they only *thought* it was valuable out of conditioning or whether it really was truly valuable information: that is up to them to figure out. I am not sure why you can't be a little more patient with a person's process of sorting out their angst about Maharaji. You seem to think we should all arrive at the same exact conclusion you have, in exactly the same way.

I have said many times here that I do not buy into the concept of enlightenment as defined by Gurus and by Maharaji. But I do believe that humans evolve, or develop (and grow) emotionally, psychologically, intellectually (cognitively). If I referred to emlightenment or evolution, that is what I meant.

Reconciling the Maharaji trip for me has required analysis of why I got inolved in the first place and analysis of what it was I was looking for. I am not so sure why that is such a noxious idea to you.

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Date: Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 18:56:03 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Come on, Helen
Message:
Jim I did get something of value from the people I met as a premie. that was about the only thing of value that I got.

Helen,

With all due respect, that's trite. Who would ever say that we didn't get some good, old-fashioned human comfort, love, friendship and support from each other, at least to some extent, during our years together in the cult? No one. There was camaraderie galore on this ill-fated journey to the east. In fact, my greatest sense of loss, personally, respecting the cult is the fact that I'm estranged from so many of my former fellow cult members who won't take their thumbs out of their ears and face the music. (Oh yeah, my opinion, of course. I forgot to say that and we don't want to seem to sure of ourselves now, do we?)

But anything positive on that front is in no way attributable to Maharaji or the cult. He gets nothing on his side of the balance sheet because we made friends with each other. Indeed, in some ways those friendships were entirely stunted, even still-born, because of where they were struck.

I was referring to raina's reference to a particular satsang that she remembers getting value out of, and I think there are alot of premies who do/did find something of value in M's satsangs.
Again, Helen, can't you see Yes, I found the whole trip to be destructive also. It is hard to figure out if they only *thought* it was valuable out of conditioning or whether it really was truly valuable information: that is up to them to figure out.

Are you serious? Is that really what you think, that it's up to them to figure out and you cna't 'judge' or something? Give me a fucking break, Helen. To start with, we all thought we were getting something of value from the trip. If you're willing to actually re-evaluate the 'teachings' you can't help but form an opinion on whether others are right or wrong in their opinions. That's only logical. Trying to slice it any finer -- so that you can judge the trip yourself but avoid saying whether or not it's of value for others -- is simply fou fou. (Foo foo? Pheux pheux?)

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Date: Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 05:59:09 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Come on, Helen
Message:
Jim
What is it precisely that we are arguing about? It seems pretty petty actually. 'Come on Helen' 'Do you really believe that Helen?' Jeez, give me a fucking break. YOu're such a prick
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Date: Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 03:25:28 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Come on, Helen
Message:
Actually, friendships within the cult were easy. That may have had value at the time. I think it did for me because I was so de-socialized and weirded out by the '60s. But what we're doing now... re-establishing old friendships without the crutches, and without all the superficial trappings, gives a nice point of comparison and clarity. I have retained only a few friendships from that era, so I have to conclude that the rest were 'at best' mostly *therapeutic exercises* rather than real friendships. Anyway, whatever is going on now has a good deal more legitimacy than a therapeutic exercise.

--Scott

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Date: Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 00:50:48 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Helen, Jim
Subject: Duality
Message:
Regardless of if you ever find a way to communicate to one another....posts and perspectives from the both of you certainly communicate a lot to me.
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Date: Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 09:38:19 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: Jesus Christ the Kidnapped
Message:
Is it any wonder that people do not understand you when at the end of your last paragraph you write........,'ok! now that I have no idea what I've just said here!' I've got to tell you nor did I. You come across as the poor little confused premie, or ex-premie, and your posts are scripted accordingly and are mostly unintelligible. What's with all those....................pauses.................you love to use........... A bit like listening............ to ...........Maharaji...............it seems.

To be honest, I stopped reading your messages because they are just too difficult to read. I only opened the above one up to find out about Jesus Christ the Kidnapped. But then I didn't find out anything. I'm further confused.

You then conclude with some waffle about Maharaji and something he said on some old tape from the 70's which you intended to dig up and listen to it................to help build sympathy here! Good luck raina, the only ones that may work on are the revolving premies who come and go on the forum.

I've noticed that several people have invited you to communicate with them by email. If you are sincere, maybe you would do well to just read and not post for a while and email any of your thoughts and worries to these thoughtful souls. Then we might all be happy.

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Date: Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 16:17:48 (GMT)
From: Raina
Email: None
To: Oliver
Subject: Jesus Christ the Kidnapped
Message:
Oliver Wrote:
'Good luck raina, the only ones that may work on are the revolving premies who come and go on the forum.'

one more time?:'Good luck raina, the only ones that may work on are the revolving premies who come and go on the forum.'

Is it me?

I know I'm too dense and unworthy to comprehend..........but.............What does this mean Oliver? (your words exactly): 'Good luck raina, the only ones that may work on are the revolving premies who come and go on the forum.'

In case you're too busy to hear this ONE simple question, maybe it's because your brain is telling you 'My God! It's hard to write with our thumb up our ass Ollie.'

BTW: wrong on all counts...not a premie or an x-premie.................and so you keep working on those disappearing nouns dude...............we'll look forward to hearin' from you soon! Don't give up! Believe! Believe! A-E-I-O-U and sometimes Y!

...................oh............ ...uh...and...........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................eat me...............................................as Jesus says so eloquently....................

p.s. don't bother responding.......because in case you're not catching on..........I'm really not interested in your incomplete sentences anymore than you are in mine (or your opinions, or your malicious, misdirected ramblings. Is your stove gas or electric? Do you have a car? A garden hose? See! now you're contagious! Now I sound malicious!)


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Date: Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 01:57:48 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: Raina
Subject: Jesus Christ the Kidnapped
Message:
My stove is slow combustion. What's yours?
Loved your last message. So much easier to read. What's your secret? New Editor?

Have a nice life, Ollie.

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Date: Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 04:45:16 (GMT)
From: Raina
Email: None
To: Oliver
Subject: Slow Southern Drawl
Message:
Sorry to keep you Oliver! I'm sure you've got places to go! and people to meet!
Just don't waste your time reading my awful 'substanceless' shit....I'm sure no one is 'perverse' enough for your standards.
.......well now there's a solution! At least now you know how meaningless and shallow my life is...so you'll know better!

I'll try to have a nice life....thanx....
love & piece to you too!

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Date: Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 02:17:42 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Oliver
Subject: Jesus Christ the Kidnapped
Message:
She did make a pretty good joke, didn't she Ollie?
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Date: Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 02:44:02 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Jesus Christ the Kidnapped
Message:
She/he certainly did Runa! Not as silly as her/his earlier syntax may have appeared her/him to be. Hmmmmmmmmm.

Cheers, Oliver.

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Date: Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 04:54:49 (GMT)
From: Raina
Email: None
To: Oliver?Runa
Subject: 'eat me' as Jesus says?
Message:
Which joke did you guys like?
The 'eat me as Jesus says' joke?

I didn't think you'd see that because of the way it posted
(............................................................................)

I'm very proud of that joke! so remember me when you hear it all over
the place one day! (worded much better of course!)

and if you were talking about the suicide hints-they weren't jokes....
(just kidding)

ciao 4 niao,
raina

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Date: Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 08:09:31 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Raina
Subject: Yes that's the one
Message:
I will remember you when I use it. It's not bad.

I don't feel the same as many of the regulars who are so avidly convinced you are fucking with us but then I don't mind the premies who post satsang as long as I don't have to read their posts.

I don't personally give credit to M for anything. The lingering minutae of credit eventually reduced to zero. I think of anything/everything he did 'for' me (really 'to' me) as akin to a broken promise. It felt really good to disconnect the reflex to give him credit.

The context you lay out (thinking things out loud) sounds fair enough to me. I don't hear you asking for pity and then hitting us with satsang, which is what some people are hearing. You left about 10 years ago after a couple of years involvement, and now finding a place to discuss it you are reflecting on why you were involved in a positive light- with the understanding that you are out of it- you are an ex but you left before initiation. (Is my summation accurate?)

If you end up telling us only good stuff about M, I won't like it either. But I'm not hearing that.

I also remember the more complex side of 'bliss', like hearing several different statements simultaneously while I was in satsang and all kinds of unusual, inner-triggered colorings of the outside world. A lot of the analysis here is ultra-rational, but certainly many of us recognize that we are the same people (or biological entities for the more rationally inclined) who were actually premies once.

A lot of people meditate w/o M now or have moved on to other practices (and a lot us are atheists) but except to occasionally argue about psychic phenomena or something, there isn't a lot of postitive in-depth discussion of the strange vibrational side of letting go, Miragey-style. The consensus is that most of the time, people put themselves at risk rather than stumbled into a magical ride to riches. There are more disasters, fumbled careers, destroyed marriages, etcetera than the opposite. But I have been intrigued by what you say and didn't see its positivity as some kind of subterfuge for satsang.

Our common denominator as exes (and it's almost completely universal among the people who call themselves exes) is a disdain toward 'Maharaji'.

I am glad you were able to leave him. I can hopefully admit enjoying meeting you without getting too much flack for it. But then, I agree, there might be a tad too much flack to go 'round.

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Date: Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 10:44:10 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: NO!...........it was the bit about the garden hose
Message:
........or maybe the car.

For God's sake Runa, what Jesus joke? Am I looking at the correct message?

I give up, the black hatted dudes have won this thread and their welcome to it.

Cheers cobber, Oliver

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Date: Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 18:14:42 (GMT)
From: A premie
Email: None
To: Raina
Subject: Jesus Christ the Kidnapped
Message:
You are hell on wheels.
You are the most exciting thing to happen here.
Did you say NYC - fiqures if you did. The coolness is written all over you, girl.
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Date: Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 03:37:30 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: A premie
Subject: Well, there's a compliment worth having.
Message:
She lays down a gauntlet of words and then stumbles over them herself. Way cool, alright. I guess you must find talk without substance quite familiar and reassuring... sort of the way some abuse victims like being smacked around.
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Date: Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 19:03:18 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: A premie
Subject: Funny how you guys attract one another
Message:
Yes, of course, a stupid cult member and a new age hothead. Great.
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Date: Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 07:24:05 (GMT)
From: Raina
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Funny how you guys attract one another
Message:
Hey Jim-
One last thing? Believe me! I'm not attracted to anyone here.............while
you make fun of everyone.....It's too sad...................................
you are just as in your own world as the 'premie' (what a stupid word!)

Is that just your omnipotent perspective allowing me a glimpse of my deepest
self-( you of course would KNOW better than confused little me?)

Why don't you go to the newest thread up on top? some chick there (SB?)
sounds pretty fucking fascinating.............no pun...............she's looking hot guys.
I'm sure you're hot.........you big all-knowing juicy guy you........(or is it Jimima?)
you juicy girl you!

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Date: Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 14:01:54 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Raina
Subject: Funny how you guys attract one another
Message:
Hey Raina,
SB is just having some fun, believe me she is not some kind of floozy, she's a real, living breathing passionate beautiful thoughtful kind woman, just like you or me,(I just met her last week)
Helen
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Date: Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 17:46:28 (GMT)
From: Raina
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Funny how you guys attract one another
Message:
Damn! it gets ugly! no offense to SB-i was just trying to figure out why i was under attck for being so 'substanceless' (one word used) etc.............

my apologies to SB

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Date: Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 02:54:38 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Not in general but this one sure does
Message:
Helen,

The warm, fuzzy idealism we enjoyed getting into the cult was the mind trap itself taking hold. How you can see anything positive in that escapes me. Yes, yes, yes, we were all smiling, happy, shout-it-in-the-streets-ecstatic even. All of that was a big mistake for which we paid dearly.

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Date: Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 03:17:51 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: yes yes yes whatever jim
Message:
You misunderstood me as usual dear Jim. I don't have the energy tonight to debate you or to remind you of the times you yourself have posted about the good times in the ashram. My sister in law died today. I think all raina was saying was to have some objectivity and to not paint everything with such a broad brush. Maybe a little listening would not be a bad idea either. Read between the lines a little too.
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Date: Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 03:27:30 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Sorry to hear that, Helen (nt)
Message:
hh
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Date: Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 13:43:11 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Sorry to hear that, Helen (nt)
Message:
Thank you, didn't mean to go off on you in my usual hostile and passive aggressive way with you. Perhaps someday I will be able to find another communication style with which to converse with you. Take care
Helen
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Date: Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 01:37:31 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Helen: your posts do not suck.(nt)
Message:
No suckitude here babies!
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Date: Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 01:40:24 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: thanks, Daneane and
Message:
What was that line you and friend say about the basic 'sucktitude' in life? I just loved that!
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Date: Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 01:44:59 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Waves of suckitude
Message:
Low suckitude level. No formal structure to suckitude. But I won't kid ya, it ain't free; but you'll always make it through.
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Date: Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 01:54:24 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: Waves of suckitude and natural doubt
Message:
...and the human condition, that's it 'waves of sucktitude'-- I just love it.
waves of sucktitude did keep us frustrated in our quest for permanent bliss. I think that the quest to avoid pain and sucktitudinous waves caused us to judge non-premies so harshly. We looked down our noses at them, the lowly minions, struggling with REAL LIFE!

my sister-in-law, after her struggle with breast cancer, died today at 4 pm. I am glad that I can see the gravity of death now and not cover it up in platitudes. I truly don't know what happens to us when we die, I would hope that there is something more, but I don't know.

Premies used to say that at the time of death our spirits go through a darshan tunnel and we are become one with maharaji. Yeah, and monkeys fly out of my butt!!

Anyway, Daneane, always a delight to read your posts. take care, dear,
Helen

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Date: Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 03:54:11 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Excerpt
Message:
Hey Helen,

Sorry to hear about your sister-in-law. I hope at least she had the time to resolve things and prepare a bit, as well as those around her.

Definitely a high level of suckitude there, and now I see why were thinking of that phrase.

You spoke of what premies said about it. In the video I watched yesterday M answered to the question, 'What happens when we die?'
M: 'Ask me when we are dead, then we will have a common frame of reference.' Then after this tasteless comment went off on some circular logic spiel that bored me.

A premie I once knew seemed to me very afraid of death. Age, physical changes...all really bothered this person. I've often wondered if it had to do with the M thing.

Anyway, take care and remember the key to suckitude is that it will resume normal low levels in time.
-dg

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Date: Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 13:40:09 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: Excerpt
Message:
you are right, that was a tasteless comment on M's part. How strange to see the Lord of Universe go from having all the answers to being another slob on the bus. Well, I guess that proves that he is utterly human, doesn't it? He doesn't know shit from shinola and shouldn't have sat on that throne in the first place. Why people still insist on enthroning him in their hearts is beyond me. Heck, I wouldn't even want him as a distant acquaintance to hang out with a in bar, much less the king of my heart!

Thank you for the kind words about my sister in law. It was a peaceful death and her eyes were shining, according to those who were there. SHe wasn't in pain,a nd she was surrounded by loved ones in that final month when she was in the hospital. Rifts in her family were resolved due to the transformative and traumatic nature of illness. So there is a silver lining in it all due to the good people who were with her day and night in that hospital (her 2 sisters and her minister).

Waves of sucktitude along with waves of human compassion, love, forgiveness and mercy
Helen

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Date: Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 00:26:11 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Correction: 'Sometimes' not 'often' I should say.
Message:
hi-
um, ya...I don't undertand why yoy get the idea that I think about Maharaji more than once a month or longer etc? I have so many problems.... I just gave up!- a while ago-years ago-

I don't really have goals, because really I never did (typical ones anyway-like 'I'm going to be a doctor! I'm going to be rich!' etc. Actually the only time I ever did feel goal-oriented (and really practical about it) was when i was intensely into Maharji-like when i heard a story about his father(?) telling everyone they were wasting their time with the details of 'chair and secondary-thing type preperations' to listen to M speak that day ...or once he (M) said something about the irony of humans saving other species when they couldn't save their own etc....that kind of thinking really struck a deep chord with me-it made so much sense-and I wanted to help him! I got it! the whole listening thing-that i keep trying to say (obvioulsy not very clearly) here!

I imagined that by practicing a kind of awareness and honesty-It would become more and more clear when i was needed for something-it just would make so much sense if everyone thought that way! It was that simple-awareness and an growing understanding of how we all are a part of the same force-'the universal'........I'm just not born to be taken seriously by anyone but myself though! That's just how it is! .....but I do like laughing and being happy!....

The thing about the apartment was more sinister than I made it sound i guess-Did i sound to you like I didn't think it was 'too bad'? My life was so OVER when that happened! Ya it was bad! Along with the apartment I lost all my fake friends and family! (Who weren't there when I needed them! so i guess i was saying-I found out who my real friends were etc. The silver lining! ) Actually-I do prefer 'knowing' the truth about my 'friends' than suffocating in the falseness....so....that's not anybody's fault-it just was what it was....It would have been nice to find REAL friends to fill in those voids...but....no one ever does....I don't know what to make of that.....It's pretty sad-but never desperate....well...maybe sometimes....gotta get out there and make mistakes once in a while to keep the blood circulating!

I felt as if I'd been sabotaged! NOT that I had spaced out etc and lost it because of something M said to me.....I really wondered if someone hadn't taken advantage of the situation...I mean don't people kill over rent stabilized leases in NYC? Sure they do! It's as simple as amonia, a sponge, and (what is it that your never supposed to mix when you clean your bathroom?) People suck period (so far-that's my experience). But life is good though....

anyway-thanx for your interest in me....but again....it seems so impossible for all of us to hear each other as we mean to be heard (no one's fault) that I may just disappear for a while-But i wanted to thank you for your kindness and concern....etc....

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Date: Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 20:30:52 (GMT)
From: A premie
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: Correction: 'Sometimes' not 'often' I should say.
Message:
'People suck period..'

A woman came into my office saying she had had a bad day.She said,' Are you living,are you breathing? Then I hate you.'

Thought you'd appreciate that one. I liked her immediately.

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Date: Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 02:39:44 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: djrayovac@aol.com
To: raina
Subject: Correction: 'Sometimes' not 'often' I should say.
Message:
I'm glad you're out of the cult. People also have contact through other forums or email. You're not saying anything that I find impossibly ridiculous or whatever.

BTW, I was in NYC in the late 70's and 1980 so if you were there then we might have met. Email me if you like.

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Date: Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 04:37:14 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Careful Runa, I think he fancies you! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 17:38:10 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: Maharaji's message
Message:
The message I got from M (loud and clear) was 'don't get too close'. But the message from the 'instructors' was 'beg' etc......so for lots of reasons, (that no one would find as interesting as I would myself!) i played along.

Where do you think the 'instructors' got what they were saying to you? Do you think they just made it up, or do you think that after their many meetings and trainings with Maharaji, they got the message that Maharaji wanted people to not only 'beg' but to be devoted to Maharaji (himself). Sure, it isn't something Maharaji wants to say out loud, and certainly that isn't disclosed at introductory programs, but it's clear that if you don't 'play along' and at least act like you are grovelling and devoting, you won't get knowledge. And if Maharaji doesn't want people to 'get close,' why does he have people line up by the thousands and kiss his feet?

I think the point of the 'hard to be rich' quote is that Maharaji does know what that's like, that's why he can say what he does. He got extremely rich by ranting on about how his followers were supposed to do 'service,' to 'participate,' to 'devote' and all the rest. It says something loud and clear about the kind of person Maharaji is. He doesn't think about anybody but himself. He has been lousy at spreading knowledge, but fantastically successful in accumulating wealth for himself. Which of those do you think his priority actually is?

Regarding Dettmers, Michael Dettmers was Maharaji's right hand man for a good 10 years. He rejected Maharaji, but I gather he still likes the guy as a sort of really screwed up person who thinks he's god, but isn't, and needs help. That's why his opinion is worthwhile.

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Date: Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 01:11:15 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Maharaji's message
Message:
i think i just wrote to you a second ago!-Im really tired-so i shouldn't write right now-but here goes:

I always hated religion....my mother was a 'born-again' from the bible belt....
talk about misguided....

In the same way that most people lied to M about being 'ready' the instructors may have just nodded a lot! You see it ALL the time EVERYWHERE! peopel hear what they want to hear! Ya it was careless for M to set them loose on the world (in his name!) ...but wasn't he like 8 years old?! or 17? i mean people SUCK big time! Do you really believe M was malicious and hateful? or just a man (idealistic naive little boy!) trying to do the impossible? (im not trying to defend him-i'm just trying to point out that a refocussing of so much pointed energy could be miraculous if directed at something that REALLY needs to be destroyed! things that are way more evil and affecting our lives in the worst ways....)

I majored in comparitive religion in college because i hated religion SO much! i hated what it did to people! so i was REALLY surprised to discover (later on) my vulnerability to M! But it completed a circle for me....i think we all need to be humbled by someone....and it's SO essential to our health and well-being.....there's religion! It's as necessary as food-that's why it's so powerful....ya it's become a business....but not BECAUSE of M.....

I mean who is more disgusting to you? The pope or Maharaji? To me the catholic church .....it just doesn't get any worse...BUT!..........every once in a while something brilliant was said by a devoted catholic that heightened human consciousness...that in turn effected all of us in a good way....do you know what I mean....?

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Date: Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 16:51:51 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: Maharaji's message
Message:
In the same way that most people lied to M about being 'ready' the instructors may have just nodded a lot!

What would it mean to be 'ready', Raina? Does it have any basis in reality at all? Like I was saying earlier, you CAN'T be 'ready.' There is always more, and no one ever feels 'ready.' That's because it's a pile of crap, this 'ready' thing. It's about making someone desperate for 'knowledge.' To make them so self-doubting and confused, and so dependent on getting knowledge from 'the master' that when they do, many people feel that they have been selected into an elite club, and since they weren't really 'ready,' since they still had 'doubts,' they better be VERY careful to tow the straight and narrow, and not doubt, and certainly never criticize Maharaji or knowledge, no matter how much it doesn't work. And it doesn't work, so that's what you have to do.

See, deep down, the instructors know knowledge doesn't work either. They know that it doesn't really make them happy and they know that it doesn't work for them, so they have to reinforce a belief that it DOES work over and over again. And by repeating that, and by getting someone like you to believe it, they reinforce that in themselves. It's a kind of mutual dependency, a kind of system that reinforces a belief system, rather than a real experience of anything.

I'm not going to get into disgussing the pope, but I will say that the Pope never claimed to be god, nor did the Pope, having claimed to be god, demand that I devote my life to him.

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Date: Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 12:45:43 (GMT)
From: Concerned Observer
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: Maharaji's message
Message:
I think god is different to all people. Maybe it's not god at all but some other higher power, whatever/whoever. If you asked 20 people in a room what they thought god was, I bet you would get 20 different answers. I find it really hard to believe that moses parted a sea. I had a hard time believing in a lot of the 'miracles' written in the bible. The difference is, there are no people standing here telling you any differently because nobody was there. That generation has died off and nobody can tell us they witnessed the parting of the red sea. But with Maharaji, there is no illusion you see him standing before you. I talked to a premie who thought M walked around with a glow. According to her, this glow was because M was god. (obviously a premie for many many years). And the same experiment holds true. If you put 20 premies in a room, they will all give you a different explanation of what/who M is and what he can do and what he has said. Some do believe it to be their faith or religion. If I stood 20 people on the edge of the ocean and asked them what it did for them, I would probably get 20 different answers.
The thing is evolution happened we're all here now and millions more will arrive year by year. Maharaji tries to tell you that there is nothing else more important than the life you have been given. Obviously we all realize this when we wake up every morning right? No big secret here. So, why does he not want you to enjoy that life. Why spend all that time by yourself looking inside when there is so much to see outside? Why can't somebody just believe in themself? Our choices determine our future. And isn't family the most important relationship we have. Would Maharaji donate a kidney to you if you needed one? (NO) Would he lend you the money you needed for a down payment on a house? (NO) Would he sit with you at your bedside when you were ill? (NO) Would he stick up for you when you needed him to? (NO) Would he be there to help you with your problems? (NO) He's not a friend or a family member at all. His advise to you is to deal with it your self just go inside and get the answer. I wrote M a letter and another and another and another to try and get answers but he never wrote me back!!! I wrote to some of the exes here and every one of them answered me. The exes are real people. They Don't drive onto the site with their silver Range Rovers. They work all day and then come here to help people like me. Nobody pays them for their informaion because they feel it is important enough to share with others. They don't claim to be Gurus or ever ask for anything in return charity or otherwise. Those actions are from the heart.
I think that any premie that comes here to argue points about Maharaji has not really read the websites. How could someone read all that information and still think this jerk has something to say??????????
The other premies that come here and start to realize what has been done to them have a hard time facing it. The defensive tones we are hearing are expected. They just havn't figured out where to apply the anger just yet. They'll get there with help from the exes here. IMO most premies Would not come here. They would make it to the first page or so with a responce of 'lies, I'm not reading that. or 'garbage' And switch to a more soothing site to them. It's hard to deal with reality when you have been going inside for sooooo long. Anyway that;s all. gotta go.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 14:37:53 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Run, why don't you just go back to Him?
Message:
There are a few different approaches in questioning what you say about M, but I'm struck by your desire to find a reason for him to be a jerk. Maybe he just really is a jerk. But then, what would it mean about something positive you experienced, seemingly under his influence, if he is a jerk? Would it mean that your feeling was false? Or is it possible that your experience was valid but his role was false?

Run,

It's apparent that you actually believe this Knowledge crap but are too cagey to come right out and say it. No wonder you're so evasive. Look, all of your complaints about Maharaji being a 'jerk' and everything are dwarfed by the beatuy and importance of his 'gift'. Maybe you can work things out with him after all. Then you really don't have to argue with anyone. Cause we know how much you hate that, right?

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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 15:46:35 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: How many hours a week do you spend reading ELK?
Message:
I don't even enjoy reading it so why would I want to return the source?

I spent a couple of hours re-reading M's satsangs when I first accessed EPO three years ago. It had been over 15 years and I wanted to face the ugly truth in myself about what I had actually been involved with, a semi-literate, megalomaniac con-man who had successfully posed as the Messiah/Incarnation. I doubt if I've spent that much time glancing at the perpetual trickle of satsang and testimonies that have appeared on this site since then.

You're the one that seems to be obsessively drawn to his words.

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Date: Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 13:12:50 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: You might understand if you had a sense of humor
Message:
Run,

I don't spend too long on ELK, maybe a few minutes here and a few minutes there. I find it funny. A lot of people do. You might too if you weren't such a sour pickle. Make that dour. Dour pickle.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 05:10:46 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: This just in: Santa Monica was a success!!
Message:
Success in Santa Monica

Ready to move forward...

A report from Katharita Lamoza

1360 very excited people waited for the doors to open to Maharaji's first live event in the United States since May of 1999. Inside the hall, all the final tests were complete, the ushering and translation staff were in place - every contingency covered so that we could enjoy the event with no distractions, in a comfortable and completely welcoming environment.

On a practical level, I guess I'd hoped for something slightly more intimate - a place where no seat could be considered far from the stage. There was something slightly stark about the hall - a simple stage, a simple chair for Maharaji, rows and rows of metal folding chairs.

But as the audience itself started to fill the spaces, that starkness gave way to warmth, joy, and the anticipation of the people who travelled to Santa Monica to spend a full day with their beloved teacher, taking advantage of the opportunity Maharaji is offering.

And what can I say about Maharaji? He was radiant, ecstatic about all the new projects afoot, ready to move forward and inviting us - again - to move with him.

'It's been a long time' were his opening words, after the applause had ceased. That brought another burst of applause. He went on to talk about innumerable things - things that had the audience in stitches, things that had us on the edge of our seats, things that had us remembering why we came to Knowledge in the first place.

And then we found out what he has been working on, what he hinted at in the last satellite broadcast. An entirely new approach to receiving Knowledge. It would be unfair - and impossible - to describe it. It's something that hopefully each person who has already received Knowledge will be able to experience personally over the next couple of months, as Maharaji refines it and takes it to other events, in the USA and other countries.

In the afternoon, he talked about participation. There is so much happening right now in this world of Knowledge, so many real ways in which we can plug in. He told us about how he helped his father when he was just a little boy, and what it means to have the consciousness of 'What can I do to help?'

Satellite events will continue to evolve, he said, and more big changes are underway. His travel schedule will change radically, and there are other things about which we will find out in the near future.

After the event, there was incredible excitement: People who hadn't seen Maharaji or even practiced Knowledge for many years were thrilled and happy to be back. The exhilaration among those who have been participating all along was obvious and electric. The winds of change that Maharaji spoke about last year may be taking us into uncharted waters, but so far they have guided us into a wonderful new territory that is a privilege to explore, with him.

. Enjoyment is what happened at this event. As usual Maharaji simplified my life and once again brought back a clear perspective and priority. It's easy for me to stop along this road of enlightenment and get caught up in side attractions. Maharaji, in his gentle yet firm way, comes back to me and reaches out his hand to me and says: 'Come this way, it's much easier' and once again he saves me from my own ignorance and leads me back to a simple, pure, clear Knowledge.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 13:10:56 (GMT)
From: Ebert
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: This just in: Santa Monica was a success!!
Message:
I so don't see how you can keep reading this stuff Jim.
If M had showed up on stage for five seconds, dropped his pants, then waddled off...those kids would have found it deeply moving and inspirational; and no doubt would have thanked him for letting taking so much of their time and money to have seen it.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 06:49:42 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: And this? This could have been you!
Message:
Reinhold Goehlmann:

The thirst is a gift

From Erfurt, Germany

I just read the posting 'a thirsty heart in Memphis' - and it touched me. I am in a similar situation. In an area of almost 200 miles around there is no other person with Knowledge - at least I don't know anybody. I live in Erfurt, a city in East-Germany, between Frankfurt and Berlin. Last December I installed a satellite dish to receive the European broadcasts. First time I had some technical problems and I only saw the last two minutes of the transmission.

Last Sunday there was another broadcast and I was longing very much to see it. In the last months I have got so little information about what Maharaji is doing and what he wants to do next, so I was really excited to listen to him.

Unfortunately, on Sunday afternoon I was stuck in an untypical traffic jam on the highway for almost two hours - and again I saw only the last few minutes. Well - I asked myself, what I was doing wrong and why does something like this happens to me. Especially there was the question: 'Is this a hint that I should move to Frankfurt or Berlin, where there are a lot of people with Knowledge? Is it crazy to live far away from all the teams that try to support Maharaji's activities in spreading Knowledge?'

Next day in a very subtle way I noticed that something in my mind had changed. I just related so much to the last few sentences of Maharaji when he invited everybody to participate. And now it seems to me that even though I almost missed the whole transmission, I got a lot of Maharaji's inspiration in those few minutes.

I am looking forward to the next broadcast and there is no doubt inside me that this is a medium for reaching people in remote areas and touching them in their hearts.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 10:11:52 (GMT)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: And this? This could have been you!
Message:
And then we found out what he has been working on, what he hinted at in the last satellite broadcast. An entirely new approach to receiving Knowledge. It would be unfair - and impossible - to describe it. It's something that hopefully each person who has already received Knowledge will be able to experience personally over the next couple of months, as Maharaji refines it and takes it to other events, in the USA and other countries.

I wonder what this means. I heard rumour that M may be developing a way to give knowledge on the internet. Maybe this is what this person was hinting at.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 15:42:39 (GMT)
From: EV-ex
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Anon: knowledge by DVD!
Message:
Anon,

I had heard through the Visions grapevine that knowledge sessions will be conducted, at least in part, by DVD. I would bet that this was tried for the first time at these 'intimate gatherings'.

Can anyone confirm this?

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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 15:50:37 (GMT)
From: Ajax
Email: None
To: EV-ex
Subject: Yes (nt)
Message:
m
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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 16:14:42 (GMT)
From: EV-ex
Email: None
To: Ajax
Subject: Thanks, Ajax (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 15:29:20 (GMT)
From: Ajax
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: And this? This could have been you!
Message:
'I heard rumour that M may be developing a way to give knowledge on the internet. Maybe this is what this person was hinting at.'

It is. It's a video describing and showing the techniques. There will be multiple passwords in place to prevent fraudulent access.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 17:09:44 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Ajax
Subject: Preventing 'fraudulent access'
Message:
Ajax: I have a feeling I know you.

I had a great chortle over your description that EV will try to prevent fraudulent access to the DVD's with the techniques. What the fuck does 'fraudulent access' mean in this context? Anyone care to translate, or better yet, speculate?

Marianne

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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 18:26:38 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Preventing 'fraudulent access' -- Hi Marianne,,,,
Message:
Hi Marianne,

We are still her on the Western Shore of North America, keeping the place together for you.

I speculate that 'faudulent access' means those who haven't paid, the 'administrative expense' of the DVD.

Joe

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Date: Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 17:58:15 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Hi Joe OT
Message:
Hi Joe. How are you doing? I'm just about done with teaching. I'll be back in SF on May 16. Let's have coffee or something, on the weekend.

Looking forward to seeing my city again. Have they finished re-buidling the Bernal Dwellings?

Marianne

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Date: Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 19:49:19 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Hi Marianne OT
Message:
Marianne,

No Bernal Dwellings yet. Last time I went by it was still open space, although it looks like they have put in streets.

I went to a game at Giants Statium on a rare warm evening. Pretty impressive, but the Giants lost.

Coffee sounds great. I'd love to hear about your time in dear old Ireland. Did you climb up a round tower?

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Date: Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 12:41:40 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Hi Joe OT
Message:
Joe: Yes, I climbed up the round tower, but I did not kiss the fecking (as they say here) Blarney stone!

I don't know if Doug Young mentioned this to you, but Judge Ingram ruled against me in my capital habeas case, just as he did Doug. I'll be off to the Ninth Circuit later this year. It was very disappointing, but not unexpected, given what happened in Ghent.

Rafael has season tickets to the Giants, which we share with others. Reports of the ballpark have been great. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said about the team. Still no pitching!!!

We have a date for coffee Saturday or Sunday afternoon when I get back. I'm looking forward to hearing about the ex dinner in SF too.

Looking forward to seeing you,
Marianne

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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 12:39:53 (GMT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Walking naked with attitude
Message:
Man it is just the same hinting of better things and all the 'action' of rawat bringing a fantasy inner experience to more suckers.

No clothes yet the bravado and bluster thrill the devotees and slaves.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 03:09:12 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Katie and Jim Announce New Forum
Message:
Katie and I would like to invite you all to visit the new

Jim is Right(and What Did He Tell You?)Forum

which Brian has kindly agreed to create boffu new software for. I would personally like to extend this invitation in particular to all my premie friends who, for some reason, never seem fully at home here on F5. Comfort won't be an issue on the JRF. There simply won't be any.

For a long time now some (premies, Runamok, etc.) have suggested that I, too, hold smoldering aspirations to be a cult leader. I won't say yes, and I won't say no to this spurious allegation. I will, however, ask who wants to know and will threaten to out anyone who refuses to answer. If this is madness, good. I'm on the right track.

I waited a long time for Katie to finally agree with everything I say. And yes, that's been my plan all along. Well, I've got her in line now -- right Ms. Katie? Yes, Jim. (See? What'd I tell you?) and am ready to implement Phase II. No one leave the room. Instead, please register early to assure an assigned password of your very own choice rather than having an impersonal one given to you at the last minute. Money is not an issue, mainly because we refuse to discuss it.

The link will be distributed privately to all who tell me their most personal secrets via email over the next few days.

heller@bc1.com

These secrets will be compiled and edited for statistical purposes. Nothing to worry about; this is all scientific. The results will be published sporadically. Again, this is not about comfort. And it's certainly not about you, Selene. It's about me.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 16:49:02 (GMT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Sign me up for your Millenium Gala!--(nt)
Message:
sfghj
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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 05:28:46 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: allright I tried dammit
Message:
But this is too funny. You are one hundred per cent right Jim.
It's not about me at all. But...
It's too fucking funny, ... oh never mind.
I swear though, I say I am taking a break and that means I have suddenly lost the ability to read web pages?

Please, tell me again OK. It's not about me.
And then, if I don't believe you this time,
will you send the intervention guys over? Thanks.

I should just take a long long long break. And I am.
But you just have this timing.
Gotta love you.
Now... Good bye for a while.
Hey look. Roger said goodbye for like 3 weeks.

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Date: Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 05:47:27 (GMT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: allright I tried dammit
Message:
well dont go breaking his record!
Keep it short.
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Date: Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 00:08:06 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: no record breaking; just some residual lurking
Message:
And a basketball game out in the living room that seems to have
been going on for weekends on end for months!
keep up the good fight.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 03:35:20 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: May I suggest that you charge for your services?
Message:
It would be better than making all comers feel perpetually and ubiquotously obligated to you, Jim. Under the circumstances, I'm sure Katie would be glad to forego any per cent of the fees.

I know I would.

Thank you very much.

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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 23:58:25 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Happy Birthday Michael a.k.a. Mickey the P.
Message:
Dear Michael,
So sorry about this, my worst belated birthday yet!
All,
I emailed Michael first because I didn't think he was around but he said he figured I was busy so I thought I would post his b-day thread anyway. Better late than never! :) Or so I hope.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 18:47:52 (GMT)
From: Michael aka Mickey the P
Email: mgdbach@hotmail.com
To: Robyn, cq, Marianne
Subject: Happy Birthday Michael a.k.a. Mickey the P.
Message:
Muchas Gracias. I had a very quiet birthday as it happened smack in the middle of Holy Week and it would be unseemly for a priest to have a big birthday fiesta during Holy Week.

I have been meaning to e-mail you, cq, and continue our discussion. I successfully defended my thesis (The Establishment of the Standards of the Book of Common Prayer) against the slings and arrows of the History department of the Graudate Theological Union and will receive my M.A. in history on May 19 in Berkeley, California. My Committee said that it will be a useful tool for Prayer Book scholars, and that I am the only person on the planet who has read all the documentation involved in Prayer Book revision from 1793 to 1982.

Things are going well in Panamá, Marianne. The rainy season has just started, and the toucans have returned to the rainforest around my house. I have just been put in charge of the largest Episcopal church in Panamá, so they are keeping me very busy. In regards to Elián, everyone with whom I have spoken think that he should be with his father. Castro isn´t the boogey-man here that he is in Miami. And, since we in Panamá always expect los Estados Unidos to use force in any situation, no one was surprised by the raid or whatever.

Thanks, once again, for the birthday greetings.
Padre Miguel

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Date: Mon, May 01, 2000 at 04:11:25 (GMT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Michael aka Mickey the P
Subject: Happy Birthday Michael a.k.a. Mickey the P.
Message:
Happy for you Padre Mickey!
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Date: Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 17:21:27 (GMT)
From: Irene
Email: None
To: Michael aka Mickey the P
Subject: Happy Birthday Michael a.k.a. Mickey the P.
Message:
FELIZ CUMPLEANOS!!! aND MANY MORE....

Love,
I

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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 14:58:13 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Michael
Subject: All the best, Michael - how'd the thesis go? (nt)
Message:
All the best, Michael - how'd the thesis go? (nt)
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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 08:26:13 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Happy Birthday Michael a.k.a. Mickey the P.
Message:
Happy Birthday, Michael! How goes it in Panama? What do they have to say about Elian Gonzalez there?

Love, Marianne

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Date: Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 16:32:13 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: fr. Mickey
Subject: Happy Birthday Michael a.k.a. Mickey the P.
Message:
Glad to hear you defended your thesis. Hope all is going well. Interesting to hear about the political perspective re: Elian there in Panama. I agree, of course the boy should be with his parents (father and stepmother). Not sure why this was such a media fest. I am saddened that the shooting at our National Zoo took second place to the Elian story here in DC on the pages of the Washington Post. Not that the Elian story isn't important but we should be taking care of our own problems here in the U.S. instead of butting into every other country's.

Any best to you on your birthday and throughout the year

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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 21:29:31 (GMT)
From: Blood Boils
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: I was just looking for a free mantra
Message:
Superstition and spiritual myth have flourished on the Indian Sub Continent for thousands of years, I am told. It may be because most of us are plagued with the inability to see into the after life...if there is one. This makes many lend an ear to anyone who proclaims to hold the keys to whatever is beyond.
It is unfortunate that the maharaji superstition was able to be exported to this country to find support by willing seekers.

Maharaji is not the first fakir to develop a following of otherwise rational people. Some part of our human psychological make up wishes to understand the meaning of life. It is the challenge of the fakir to cause his prey to paint a picture of a wonderful alternate reality. Once the victim has crossed the lines of logical perception to include the possibility of a the existence of a wonderful reality or the existence of a 'master,' the victim has fallen half-way into slavery.

When the fakir or master challenges the victim that the proof of the 'master' lies within the victims own efforts to believe or to have faith, or allow no room for doubt... the victim falls the rest of the way into the bottomless pit called devotion.

Once the fakir successfully manipulates the victim into believing that it is the victim's own short coming if he or she doesn't 'realize' the inner validation of the master, the victim has been captured.

So how does anyone release him or herself from the trap?
The victim must be able to sort out just what is superstition and what isn't. What a chuckle maharaji must get when he uses his cult entrapment phraseology and puts a big grin on his face...and the whole crowd of premies believes that they are the only ones in the whole world who know what is going on.

There may be many spiritual and metaphysical forces which defy human logic and then again there may not be. Maharaji is so incredibly easy to see through, it is easy to wonder how anyone could ever have walked the plank into his ocean of delusion.

The reason I recieved the 'purported' knowledge was because I didn't have the cash to pay maharishi for a mantra. I thought I might get a free one from the purported Lord of the Universe.

Instead I got an excellent lesson in discernment.

M may as well have given me a shovel so I could dig myself a hole to climb into and to keep digging. Each time I spent my time and energy and money being involved with this DLM fiasco I dug my hole a little deeper. The deeper the hole was the harder it became to get out of it. There are a few people that I truly care about that are still in so deep. Wish I knew how to help them. People living in poverty and yet contributing to the fakir. People who believed that if they spent their whole life doing the fakir's prescribed path that they would wind up better off for it.

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Date: Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 10:06:23 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Blood Boils
Subject: No such thing as a free mantra - or lunch
Message:
Hi there, Blood,

They say that prostitution is the oldest profession. If so, religion must come a close second.

The prospect of the inevitability of impending death always will be part of the human condition, no matter how comforting the myths that are woven around it. And I guess it’s also human nature for various unscrupulous types to attempt to cash in on it.

The Maha is just another in a long line of dream-weavers whose promises of heaven/enlightenment/salvation are designed to keep the masses in subservience to their particular ideology.

Thus it ever was.

And will be ...??







PS Have you looked at http://www.truthbeknown.com/origins.htm - Acharya S’s website yet? Very interesting reading.

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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 19:57:55 (GMT)
From: EV-ex
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: To premie lurkers
Message:
Gee, isn't there even ONE amoung you who could fill us in on how blissful the 'intimate knowledge review' was in Santa Monica yesterday?

I didn't think so.

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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 23:40:39 (GMT)
From: Pauline Premie
Email: None
To: EV-ex
Subject: That Knowledge Review
Message:
It was so incredible. First, I had the opportunity to drive for 11 hours straight to get to LA, and I had that gift of giving all the cash I had to get in, $65.00, just for administrative expenses of course, and, as I said below, to write out a check for Maharaji's spa/recording studio in Amaroo. I maxed out my credit cards buying all this incredibily graceful and awesome merchandise from Visions, including several CDs, and a set of flatware with swans on them. I know I don't have a place to live, but I just had to have them, they reminded me of HIM so much.

The knowledge review was just so blissful, but I don't remember much of it, because my evil mind was making me fall asleep from being awake for only 32 hours. It just didn't want me to have that experience of that love and being in that presence of the master. But I stuggled very hard, and despite having my feet crushed by a really overweight premie who was there from Wisconsin, it was just so beautiful. Maharaji's skin was golden and his hair was slick like silk. He showed us how to do the techniques, one at a time. It was so beautiful.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 00:06:39 (GMT)
From: Blood Boils
Email: None
To: Pauline Premie
Subject: excellent reporting sister ji (nt)
Message:
no text
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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 00:02:12 (GMT)
From: Pauline Premie
Email: None
To: Pauline Premie
Subject: By the way
Message:
Just to let you know how out of it you ex-premies are, there are now 5 techniques and not four, and they have been re-numbered so that what was 1 is now 4, what was 2 is now 3, what was 3 is now 1, and the new one is 2. Obviously, I would never dream of revealing a technique, but I must say that the premie who compared the new number 2 to the experience of having a really difficult bowel movement, was really in his mind.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 03:05:58 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Pauline Premie
Subject: By the way
Message:
I'm confused.

Though if the purportedly new technique has to do with strenghtening the pelvic floor through Kundalini/Kegel types of exercises, I'd say bully for him.

Pure speculation, of course, but could the Teacher (not Maximum Leader) be introducing some other techniques from some other traditions in a last-ditch effort to keep his faithful followers faithful?

A new technique! Straight from God! New, improved, cleans the mind brighter, whiter!

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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 18:27:56 (GMT)
From: Q
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: MYSTERY RULES!
Message:
Trying to know what others don't know is still seductive after all these years/yugas. N'est-ce pas?
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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 19:20:11 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Q
Subject: Cultic Knowledge
Message:
C'est vrai. Remember all those smiles we'd give each other as premies, knowing that we knew the secret (and everyone else didn't and didn't even know they didn't)?

Being in a secret club, it was, just like kids. And Mommy and Daddy didn't know, either! That was fun, too, eh?

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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 19:29:20 (GMT)
From: Q
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Do you think we'll ever actually get over it?
Message:
I don't; not anytime soon anyway.
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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 19:59:36 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Q
Subject: YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (nt)
Message:
jfkjgkdljl
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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 20:10:24 (GMT)
From: Q
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Do you want to know a secret?
Message:
Then you're not over it.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 20:17:16 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Q
Subject: Do you want to know a fact?
Message:
I can say without hesitation, that I am WAY WAY over it. I am not over some events that have occurred in my life, but Maharaji I am over! Does that mean I don't enjoy hanging out here once in a while and gossiping about him? No, I enjoy hanging out here and talking about the strange experience we all shared. And every ex-premie I have met here has been delightful in person. But I am here to tell ya, I am OVER IT, 'IT' meaning the lard (as SB would say) and for that I am glad!
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Date: Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 17:27:48 (GMT)
From: Q
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Do you want to know another fact?
Message:
Human beings are curious and competitive. Thus it may be a long time before they eschew the wish to know what others don't.
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Date: Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 01:50:27 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Yes!
Message:
You perfectly expressed the reason I hang out here. (Cyberhere)

We got into the cult to find out why we are here; finding out why we got in and stayed in the cult...and got out.. helps us understand...really... why we are here. Who we are. Thinking and feeling both count.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 03:16:24 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: binduesque@yahoo.com
To: Q
Subject: Open Secrets
Message:
What I'm interested in now is what we have in common.

We (humans) are not 'islands' (as in No Man is an...). we ARE inextricably interconnected. We are one. True scientifically or spiritually. (Sorry if I'm sounding like Dr. Bronner here.)

So I really don't invest any of my energy into thinking I'm something special. Although I am involved in what might be called an esoteric sect. That's just something I do. I have no feeling that I know something others don't. And I don't usually talk about it, because it's just my hobby, my delusion, my coping mechanism, my way of opening to what I want to open to...

But day to day, with my family, friends, colleagues, strangers...it's about being generous. I have no secrets.

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Date: Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 17:30:37 (GMT)
From: Q
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: 'I have no secrets.' wow! you really are unique nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 16:41:12 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Time to throw a party!
Message:
Well folks, I guess I've worn out my welcome here. Powerman's recent thinly-veiled allegations of racism, on my part, just planted the final nail. The allegation that I am a 'hypocrit' when I refer to racism as racism is beyond belief. Especially when this comes from someone who obviously doesn't know ANYTHING about me, other than my particular political affiliation. To those of you that happen to remember my own particular ethnic background, I'm sure that you'll find this pretty laughable, but I don't. To say that I'm seething would be a major UNDERSTATEMENT!

So tell us Powerman, what have you done to promote racial harmony within your own sphere of influence? Have you seen to it, PERSONALLY, that those within your sphere of influence have been promoted or provided with opportunities irregardless of their skin color, sex or age? I have! It's a matter of public record everywhere I've worked. I don't give a shit what the color of your skin is nor from where you hail nor your sex. You belong to the human race and the content of your character is the ONLY thing that matters to me; and the only thing that EVER has mattered to me (so who am I quoting here? Do you even know? Hint: It comes from a guy of a 'different' color than mine). Who the hell are you to call me a hypocrit for proclaiming this? Are YOUR personal records of accomplishment, in this regard, a matter of PUBLIC RECORD? You seem to think that you are uniquely qualified to pronounce judgement on my hypocrisy concerning the race issue, so there must be ALOT of evidence that qualifies you.

FUCK YOU MIGHTILY, PowerASS! Go wallow in your self-defeatist, self-fulfilling-prophesy, all-is-lost world! I will not be joining you or anyone else that loves to bathe in your personal philosophy of defeat! Hint: YOU ARE DEFEATED when you throw up your hands and give up, which you have OBVIOUSLY done! Fucking COWARD, fucking QUITTER!

To the rest of you on this forum, you can throw the party after I post this...... he he he :-) Seriously, though, I won't be back (big loss, right?) This is one of those issues that is a 'defining' issue with me. I can take political dissent; albeit, JW and I certainly get heated and I've let loose with a few fuck you's when totally frustrated (my personal apologies for that). JW, I still love ya, man (I can only hope the feeling is mutual, as 'misguided' as I may be in your eyes)! BUT, in every single discussion I've had, no matter how heated, NEVER has anyone here referred to me as a hypocrit for stating my personal (and consistent!) feelings concerning race...... nor has anyone EVER made a thinly-disguised allegation of racism on my part..... UNTIL NOW! I don't have to sit and take that kind of verbal abuse from anyone, certainly not a PowerASS! To the rest of you, I wish you VERY well and it has been a pleasure spending time here and enjoying the company of some free-thinkers! Even those who NEVER agreed with me..... he he he :-)

Goodbye and, if appropriate, god bless!

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Date: Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 15:06:36 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Come back!!!!
Message:
Mike, I really will miss you. Please reconsider. I think that ex's have a diversity of opinion on political issues is an important step out of cult think. Especailly as my opinions are often different than those of the majority. I love your posts. Without you, how could I imagine men running naked through dark forests swinging Arti trays searching for a hole they had dug earlier in the afternoon?
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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 17:59:41 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Time to throw a party!
Message:
I'm on 'break ' too. (can't you tell? OK OK I'm starting today, tomorrow, later) Time to regroup and prepare for the long hot summer.

email me anytime. Hey we can always go up to Sedona and get a spiritual healing {gag} NAH I KNOW! You can help me with my target practice! I just got a new P.380 I did. yup, they sell guns to psychos here in the wild west folks.

Taking a break from here doesn't mean you are a quitter in any way. IT's JUST A WEB SITE.
This forum is a good thing. It just gets intense sometimes and we all have our issues. I still appreciate the good part.
that being:
It's about leaving Maharaji.
And it's about me.. right Jim? oh no INA me. Got it.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 16:56:47 (GMT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Not if you are going!
Message:
Jeeze Mike,
I have a hard time imagineing life without your posts!
You come riding in like a wild free breeze and I am one of your regular readers.

Any lines that you draw I will back you up on.
You state your wants.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 01:28:46 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Time to throw a party!
Message:
Dear Mike,
After reading the posts here but not the ones that started this, I have to agree with Katie, JW and Nigel. Hal too except the suicide! Agree or disagree with you and it never effects the way you treat me and I really appreciate and enjoy that about you. :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 00:19:30 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Mike
Subject: Hey - not so fast..!
Message:
See here Mike - I have broken silence especially...

You wrote: To the rest of you on this forum, you can throw the party after I post this...... he he he :-) Seriously, though, I won't be back (big loss, right?)

A: Wrong.. Big loss (IMO, at least). No party. Come back whenever it suits (as I too will needlessly and gratuitously be back doing stuff here before long). You have friends here, Mike.

Not so long ago URL/NIL/^%&;^)(*)%&^ called me a 'sociopath', which - as far as I can work out - is about three-point-five times worse than being called a racist as it means I hate the whole effing human race, or something...!!

(And I mean don't we all, sometimes?) but the thing is it was ultimately just words - and the words of someone who doesn't know me.

The exes here know you well enough Mike - so much so that it would seem from posts above that even the liberals and lefties among us (and we are many!!) would probably mistake you for one of our own when it comes to issues of discrimination and respect for people from whatever racial or cultural category...:-)

(religious persuasion is a thornier issue..!)

I only just dropped in tonight and haven't even looked at whichever thread started all this. I learned a while back to avoid getting too worked up about off-topic issues which I normally feel strongly about, eg. politics, science, evolution, paranormal nonsense etc. Found it best to say whatever I have to in one post and leave it at that. Let others chew the fat if they want to...

But it is interesting - and healthy - that exes fall out only on off-topic issues. Premies don't even discuss off-topic issues - perhaps because it would risk them becoming involved in (a) freedom of expression, and (b) - horror of horrors - differences of opinion, not only with each other, but with what Maharaji might or might not have to say on the subject. Assuming he had an opinion...

Mike, I think there is a kind of informal, rotating night-watch or something on this forum, wherein half a dozen or so old-timers are standing guard to say 'who goes there and don't give me that crap premie ji...' Nobody plans it, we often take a few weeks or months shore leave, but there is usually someone manning/womanising the barricades...

Just wanna say as a familiar face and - I hope - friend, that when you're on duty no gurunoid infiltrator gets close to the boundaries of reason. Come back soon, ok?

For one thing, we have no other resident expert on deep space and the cosmos etc... Nigel :)

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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 22:10:02 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Please don't leave, Mike!
Message:
Or at least not because of some crack that P-man made! Sheesh! As JW said, take a break if you need to - I find that helpful myself - but I, and I think almost everyone else here, REALLY appreciates your contributions to the forum. I value your contributions.

As you know, you and I don't agree re politics, but I find it interesting to read your opinions because you usually have a reason for believing the things that you believe - in other words, you're not a 'knee-jerk conservative', like so many other people I know. (And believe me, you are far LESS conservative than some of my family members, let alone a lot of the people I work with.)

In re racism - there are racists of every color, religion, economic class, and political affiliation. I think accusations of racism based on political affiliation (or any of the other things I mentioned) are stupid and silly, and I honestly wish you would treat anything P-Man implied as such, and not take it so seriously.

Take care, Mike, and you are DEFINITELY welcome here!
Love,
Katie

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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 21:18:51 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Time to throw a party!
Message:
Mike,

It can be a good thing to get away from here, and I've done it for months at a time, and you can always pick up where you left off. Actually, I think I've seen you do that in the past yourself, but never say never, okay? Every ex-premie has a constitutional right to come here and get supported, to comiserate, to find out information, and to help scrub the cult-crud from our minds and souls. So, you have that right too, no matter how screwed up your politics might be (just kidding), and you shouldn't feel you can't come back. And what would we do without somebody who has the nerve to use 'he he he?' You deserve a congressional medal for THAT!!! :)

And I don't think Powerman called you a racist, at least I can't find anywhere he did, but I think your reaction is way out of proportion to his disagreement with you. (Although, Powerman, I don't get the reference to Mike's 'biology.' What is that?)

He just disagrees, maybe abhors, your politics, and sometimes I do too, but I would hope you would realize that the people here are by and large good people. But, really, there is no reason to be so sensitive about it. I would be upset too, if I thought someone called me a name like that, but I don't think that happened here. But isn't it great that we can actually have these discussions? Isn't it great we have strong opinions and arguments about things that actually matter, as opposed to the truncated crap that is the stuff of enjoinglife.org, the drivel that Maharaji repeats, and parrotting cult nonsense? I'll take heated arguments over that anytime.

And I'll have to admit. I like to argue. I always have, and so did my Dad (I think it's the Irish in us.) I mean, it's fun. But if it isn't fun, like that thread stopped being fun, it's time to stop, in my opinion.

So, Mike, keep the powder dry, and keep those guns locked up. Okay? And if you ever shoot an intruder, maybe you should keep it to yourself (but you can tell the NRR, they'd love to know about it.) lololololololol... And please don't feel like you aren't welcomed here.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 00:14:07 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Time to throw a party!
Message:
The biology thing is that Mike isn't white; something for which he can be proud.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 00:18:52 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: How do you know what his race is?
Message:
And what is the significance of that? I guess I'm still confused by the reference.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 01:26:30 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: How do you know what his race is?
Message:
Well, I know what his race is because someone told me. The significance is that Mike said:

Who the fuck do you think you are calling me a racist? Are you aware of my own biological background?

Ironically, I was aware of his 'biological' background. Funny way of putting it though, like using the word 'mightily' or referring to the 'public record' as though it's a normal monitor for ordinary folk.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 04:38:50 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: How do you know what his race is?
Message:
It is a funny way to put it. Mike isn't black is he? A black republican member of the NRA? No, I can't believe that!
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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 17:12:21 (GMT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: human race...............MIKE
Message:
There are a lot of guys from all quarters that are Patriots and believe in the Constitution and the rights that came from the struggle against tyranny.

Tyrants
Those that optomistically support measures to control human nature, end up going overboard and start to strip away some of the veneer of protection that free men need to have always at thier disposal. If we have complaints about human nature, well, that ends up being just another avenue for us to go overboard on.

I vote for gun-toting madmen and kids!
Better to kill folks AFTER they make it past the deadly intentions of the abortion NRA!

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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 18:14:36 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: human race? MIKE? actually I spread the rumor..
Message:
Mike is a space alien. Landed on a vortex in Sedona and migrated S.E.

... bb... Your email bounced... damned NRA.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 05:41:09 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: How do you know what his race is?
Message:
No, he isn't black. It probably isn't my place to say anymore.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 15:15:42 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: Maybe this is a racist question, Powerman .......
Message:
but where did you get your name? Is that an ethnic thing? Or is there a particular comic book superhero you always wnated to be? Because you sure do come off as a very powerful person! I really, really liked the way you put Mike in his place for being such an ugly, uptight Republican. Good work on that one!

By the way, is your disguise a source of your power? Because you sure are powerful, that's for sure.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 16:40:00 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Maybe this is a racist question, Powerman .......
Message:
Have I offended you, Jim? If I'm going to bust someone's balls I don't want a name like Shekky, do I?

And by the way, I didn't put Mike in his place. I just scoffed a little. Even you, who could never measure up to a real cop or a military man, would never have snivveled off after a small admonishment like I gave Mike. Who would have thunk? Maybe he never really was a cop or a soldier. Maybe he doesn't even own a gun. Or maybe I'm gonna get my ass shot.

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Date: Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 01:59:51 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: Ah, the power of a good joke
Message:
Nice kicker at the end.

Pman, I read what you said to Mike about being a Republican and all and I thought it sucked. And then I thought, who is this anonymous guy with the steroid name so 'bravely' attacking a really decent shmuck like Mike? And then I posted.

I think you really said some undeservedly ugly things to Mike. Don't you? Did Mike overreact a bit? Well, you can see what he's like. He's got his own kind of passion. He's idealistic, some might say unreasonably so (did you ever see our argument about stealing an extra ketchup thing from MacDonald's? Guess what side I was on), but he's really sincere, apparently kind and pretty smart too. Well look, I came to praise Caeser, not to bury him. Enough of these left-hand compliments. My point is that Mike really didn't deserve that slag and I hope you eat a little humble pie here, not just nibble at the crust, and properly apologize.

And hey, this isn't about me. So don't even start. This one's yours.

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Date: Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 12:50:57 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Get Real
Message:
First off, Jim, you can't exclude yourself from the discussion that easily. It's tricky and inappropriate and I don't buy it. Not to mention it won't work. But okay for now, we'll leave that for later.

Second, what specifically should I apologize for and why?

But I have to tell you, I'm really tired of one of your tactics, and I know I'm not the only one. Here it is:

I think you really said some undeservedly ugly things to Mike. Don't you?

The Don't you? thing has got to go. You say that when you absolutely know the other person doesn't think that and it's fucking patronizing and insincere. But maybe that's what you wanted and so I'll leave it alone.

So you don't think Mike deserved the slag he got from me? So you apologize, Jim. Because unless you can come up with something really clean, I'm not even thinking about it. Go ahead, surprise me...

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Date: Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 13:14:36 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: Okay, you got me there alright
Message:
I don't know what in the world you're talking about. Do you?
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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 18:11:40 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Time to throw a party!
Message:
Well, Mike, I'm Jewish and I once hired a Palestinian to cook in a restaurant I managed (honest). Of course, later I fired him because he was caught pilfering food and continued even after being warned. So I guess that doesn't count. A Jew would never pilfer food. Well, at least he'd never get caught.

Another incident at that same restaurant I was managing might also support your case against my liberal leanings. A waiter started losing weight dramatically and everyone suspected he had AIDS. He became so drawn that it was too weird for him to be serving food. So I changed his position to washing dishes (remember I didn't own the restaurant).

Later it turned out he had diabetes and some truly liberal folks said I was a bad guy for removing him from waiting tables. After all, I did think he had AIDS. So maybe you're right about me, Mike. Maybe I'm a hypocrite just like you.

By the way, Mike, what's this thing about 'Public Record'? Who the hell is on 'Public Record'? I'm just an ordinary guy. Nobody cares what I do. No reporters document my actions. You're very weird, Mike. Very, very weird.

Mike, that's so unkind to say 'Fuck You, Mightily'. Where do you get words like that... 'Mightily'? Do you say 'Mightily' often? I'd get that checked out if I was you. 'Verily I say unto you, I am MIKE, MIKE THE CONQUEROR!!!' Get over it, Commander.

I still like the PowerAss thing Mike. Very good.

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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 17:57:08 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Time to throw a party!
Message:
Don't you dare leave Mike! You leave and I'll commit suicide man!

We need you here Mr Clear. Please don't go.

Hal

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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 17:16:07 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Hey Mike
Message:
I stayed away from that thread. We're enthusiastic and generally well-intentioned and we have some common ground as ex-premies, but seeing as how varied (and argumentative) our points of view and discussion can be, emotions were bound to run high in a charged offtopic issue like that. I've been called more than a few names around here, with my response ranging from being amused to feeling hurt. Mostly, it's somewhere in between (in the annoying insect category).

Cyber-space sets up a kind of personal vacuum between people where they are up front and personal and simultaneously distant. The normal sense of being in public or in private is altered. People wouldn't say many things they say here at a party or bar, IMO.

Maybe in 5 years, there will be more adjustment to the media. When I used computer bulletin boards in the late '80's, the lack of 'netiquette' was bizarre. It was statewide and people were in easy driving range, but they would lie about their appearance! Truly bizarre! The machine gave them a sense of distance that wasn't real.

I hope you won't take one person's statements as representative of the whole forum. You don't have to leave to be appreciated.

Take care bro.

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Date: Sat, Apr 29, 2000 at 15:55:51 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Hey Mike
Message:
Dear Mike,
As you can see, noone wishes to throw a party about your leaving. It is truly not something to celebrate. You are truly one of the best voices of the forum and even though I am a moderate Democrat (well, okay probably a liberal Democrat since we have to label ourselves and one another) I think you a great person. I agree with Katie that too many people are 'knee-jerk' Republicans or Democrats, memorizing the party line and spewing it forth. You're one of the few people who actually thinks through their stance on an issue and can articulate it well. And I admire that in people, no matter which side of the political 'fence' they are standing on.

I'll be at the Million Mom March in DC on Mother's Day on the mall. Like many mothers, dads, humans, citizens of the U.S. I am sick to death of seeing children being shot down by guns. I have followed your gun arguments among other arguments here in the forum, and again, I don't agree with them, but it doesn't diminish you in my eyes.

I think you are such a decent person that you can't imagine the danger of people with something to prove having such easy access to guns. The recent shooting at the National Zoo, a prime example. A teenage gang member with something to prove and a gun in a crowd of families and young children--a bad combination. COmplicated--seems his dad is in prison for armed robbery. Yikes, when will it end? Ok, I digress, but MIKE--don't think that you aren't appreciated here, ok? When my romance novel is published I'll give you an acknowledgement for helping me portray a sympathetic character who happens to be a conservative--snicker!
Helen

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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 14:35:15 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Runamok's strange idea
Message:
Once again I'm pissed off at this Runamok character. Why? Because he's tried to turn an honest discussion into a police report. Interesting, then, to go over to Anything Goes and read this:

I don't read the premie vs. ex threads much. The premies don't bother me as much as they do some people. Those dogmatic arguments are a holdover from being in the cult for us. The vast majority of people leave old M'rage anyway. All you can do is put the info out there and let people make up their mind. It's not worth getting aggravated over.

Run has repeated this sentiment for years now and I just wonder if anyone agrees with him. Is there anyone else out there who thinks that these 'dogmatic' arguments with premies are nothing more than signs of residual cult thinking (or whatever it is he's apparently saying)?

Personally? I think this oft-repeated mantra of Run's is crazy. Not to mention offensive. But then that's just my opinion. Who knows? Maybe he's right. Maybe I only picked up this propensity to argue with premies in the cult. Maybe one day I'll further free myself from its insidious effects and will learn how to deal with premies a new way, the Run way. After all, I saw Run almost have a discussion with Cat over on AG. They almost broached the subject of 'who the fuck is m anyway?' before they both backed off. You could almost feel the cultishness in the air as they started to canvass -- and even challenge -- each other's opinion. Good thing that so-called 'conversation' never took flight! Who knows what they'd be saying to each other?

No, seriously, I find Run's idea patently absurd and wonder if there's anyone who doesn't? Or is this very question just another sign of my still-cult-drenched thinking?

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Date: Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 12:45:03 (GMT)
From: Edited
Email: Out There
To: Jim
Subject: edited
Message:
Catweasle, you're still banned.

Forum Administrator

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Date: Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 13:18:30 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Ha! Threatened by Run's true friend, Catweasel
Message:
G'day mate! And how's the ol' Cat keeping? Nice to hear from you. And how's the missus cat and all the little pussies?
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Date: Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 13:31:39 (GMT)
From: edited
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: edited
Message:
See above

Forum Admin'

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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 16:01:46 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Runamok's strange idea
Message:
Jim,
Runamock might have meant that the interest and fervor that generates the discussions is fueled by past cult involvement. That isn't such a stretch.

After all, you are unusually passionate about logic, science and rationality. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Premies don't have a patent on being half-assed. It could be that most people who leave maharaji, do it because it's convenient. Which is the same reason they joined the cult in the first place.

If you remember, most premies back in the day were only half-assed devotees. Now they're half-assed exes.

And you, Jim, are still grinding away, giving the usual 110% and wondering why everyone is so odd. But they aren't odd, Jim... you are.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 02:01:32 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: Forget it, Pman
Message:
Runamock might have meant that the interest and fervor that generates the discussions is fueled by past cult involvement. That isn't such a stretch.

Sorry, Pman, but that is indeed way too far a stretch for me. There's no chance in hell that that's what he meant. These words:

Those dogmatic arguments are a holdover from being in the cult for us.

don't go there. Obviously we're all interested enough in this subject matter to keep posting here. What Run's talking about is something different. He's saying that argument itself -- sorry, dogmatic argument itself -- is something we picked up in the cult. I say he's nuts. Maybe if we'd spent our time in some weird Talmudic study group where all they do is argue he might have a point. But we didn't and he doesn't.

And yes, Pman, unlike you I'm odd. You just notice this?

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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 15:47:47 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, you're such a gossip...(nt)
Message:
...I bet you caused your teachers hell at school too...
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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 17:02:20 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Why not argue on AG where the thread is?
Message:
I was explaining to Oliver that I didn't think it was worth it to second-guess anonymous posters (i.e., like dozens or hundreds of posts obsessing over Rob and others).

Objectivity in areas of human communication which aren't easily reduced to empirical investigation won't come as easily as an emotional response from you.

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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 14:45:04 (GMT)
From: No one cares
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Runamok's strange idea
Message:
Don't you have work to do. Bother someone else. Like a shrink.
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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 15:02:57 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: No one cares
Subject: Yes, well that's one valuable opinion
Message:
Do I know you?
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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 15:00:40 (GMT)
From: Sorry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: it took so long to read
Message:
your post. Was it the mention that you needed to get back to work that made you think you knew me.Or the fact that I knew you had work with a shrink about due?
But no - never had the pleasure - have read alot of your posts along with everyone else's.
Have got a general idea where you usually are coming from - when not giving useful info - say on Dettmers.
How's about more interesting info like that.
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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 15:27:02 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: No one cares
Subject: To no one cares
Message:
Noc,

Speak for yourself, not for anyone else, and certainly not for everyone else.

Jim,

Many exes just fade away. I guess they can just forget. I'm personally glad you're around. But the arguments with premies here are often not worth the effort. Premies only make fleeting comments and never ever continue the debate to fruition.

Deputy Dog, for instance, will make annoyingly vague comments like 'Knowledge is the most real thing.' But he will never come out and say what he really thinks about Rawat, whether he goes to the latest programs and if he really appreciates the stuff Maharaji says these days.

Bjorn and this new arrival Popeye claim that many lies are told here, but they won't site any specific examples.

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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 16:41:45 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: To no one cares
Message:
Too true. Been following this forum for a year or so, and it's been a rare thing indeed for a premie to actually engage any of us in anything resembling a conversation or an argument.

Following is a typical premie post:

'You expremies are nothing mor then a cult. Youare biter an angry people who didnt have what it takes to follow throuh with knowlege wich is inside of you weather or not you choose to practice it or not.'

Then one of us responds, usually politely (unless it's Jim), but lo and behold, the premie is gone!

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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 00:38:59 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: To no one cares
Message:
Gregg ended with:
'Then one of us responds, usually politely (unless it's Jim), but lo and behold, the premie is gone!'

I say they don't necessarily go anywhere. They just come back using another name with the same old inane statements to waste time and space again. Unfortunately for M they invariably end up coming across as complete wankers. Maybe someone should inform him of same and ask him to get his toe kissers under control.

So far as Runamoks post on AG is concerned, I am the person that it was directed at. I have now resolved to leave these premie wankers to their own devices. They are a waste of space.

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Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 23:16:25 (GMT)
From: Tami
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Thats troo
Message:
Ivry time I tri to hav a conversashun hear, peepul say I am stoopid. Yu x-primis ar so wikkud and meen, mostli Jim. Thats becuz yu dunt praktis nolidge. Yu dunt hav undirstanding. If yu did, yu wuld no Mirage is the mastir.

But yu ar wikkud and meen. Why, when that luv is inside yu?

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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 15:05:32 (GMT)
From: M's staff
Email: None
To: Tami
Subject: Thats troo Tami
Message:
We're looking for a new scriptwriter for Maharaji's website. Could you please e-mail us at the official website please. We need you now!

Mahatma Dickinand.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 16:42:54 (GMT)
From: Tami
Email: None
To: M's staff
Subject: Thats troo Tami
Message:
I think yu ar kiding me. Ar yu four reel? I dunt think muhutmas ar caled that inimore. Yu cunt fule mi!
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Date: Thurs, Apr 27, 2000 at 17:50:32 (GMT)
From: Mahatma Dickinand
Email: None
To: Tami
Subject: Thats troo Tami
Message:
Tami did you just call me a cunt???!!!!

' you cunt fule mi! '

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Date: Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 18:33:46 (GMT)
From: Mahatma Love-in-glove
Email: None
To: Mahatma Dickinand
Subject: You wish (nt)
Message:
You wish (nt)
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