Angry -:- The most manipulative cult song -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 09:22:44 (GMT)

__ Gail -:- The most manipulative cult song -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 17:36:05 (GMT)

__ Paul -:- My vote's with ARTI. 'You are my mother, -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 14:22:32 (GMT)

__ __ Katie -:- Agree with Paul -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 19:06:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ Nigel -:- Arti for arts sake... -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 14:33:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Katie -:- Arti for arts sake... -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 14:46:11 (GMT)

__ __ We Should Have Sung -:- 'Jerimiah was a Bullfrog.....' -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 16:58:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ Pauline Premie -:- My Favorite.... -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 18:12:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ The Song That I Sing Now -:- How can I miss you ..... -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 04:46:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- ... talk too much you worry me to death ... -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 17:57:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- hey, good one! -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 21:35:11 (GMT)

Spy Daneane -:- Hey Bob!!! Secrets Within!!!(Very OT) -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 02:04:22 (GMT)

__ Selene -:- Bob? you too? -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 02:52:05 (GMT)

__ __ Oliver -:- What's it all about? -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 05:22:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ Selene -:- nothing I hope -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 05:52:56 (GMT)

raina -:- they need to build more and more prisons for peopl -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 01:07:42 (GMT)

__ Brian -:- Take deep breaths -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 02:20:26 (GMT)

__ __ Helen -:- Take deep breaths -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 02:00:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ Selene -:- I reposted one of your posts and saved it... -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 02:40:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ raina -:- sucker 4 flattery -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 02:51:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- desperately seeking susan -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 03:08:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- no way... -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 05:09:03 (GMT)

Helen -:- 750,000 people at the Million Mom March -:- Sun, May 14, 2000 at 22:25:59 (GMT)

__ JW -:- Shameless plug -- but related -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 16:53:45 (GMT)

__ __ Helen -:- JW and Katie -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 20:28:43 (GMT)

__ Katie -:- Go Moms! -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 03:20:41 (GMT)

Runamok -:- On kissing ass (and on kissing M's ass) -:- Sun, May 14, 2000 at 20:12:49 (GMT)

__ Deputy Dog -:- I love David Letterman -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 03:25:02 (GMT)

__ __ Scott T. -:- I love David Letterman -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 10:17:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ Runamok -:- I love David Letterman -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 04:16:54 (GMT)

__ Lotus Eater -:- On kissing ass (and on kissing M's ass) -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 01:31:25 (GMT)

__ __ Runamok -:- on the same page LE? -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 05:57:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ Lotus Eater -:- on the same page LE? -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 22:59:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Runamok -:- ass versus foot kissing -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 01:35:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Lotus Eater -:- ass versus foot kissing -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 07:30:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- sucking/up -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 04:10:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- sucking/up -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 04:10:31 (GMT)

Way -:- To Mili, on the blessings of Knowledge -:- Sun, May 14, 2000 at 19:16:38 (GMT)

__ Gregg -:- The Blessings of following a Path -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 16:40:50 (GMT)

__ Mili -:- To Mili, on the blessings of Knowledge -:- Sun, May 14, 2000 at 19:56:37 (GMT)

__ __ Way -:- To Mili, on the blessings of Knowledge -:- Sun, May 14, 2000 at 20:59:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ Mili -:- To Mili, on the blessings of Knowledge -:- Sun, May 14, 2000 at 21:13:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- To Mili, on the nature of courteousness.. -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 10:26:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Way -:- My thanks to Nigel -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 14:15:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- You were right the first time... -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 09:09:41 (GMT)

__ __ Jim -:- To Mili, on begging the question -:- Sun, May 14, 2000 at 20:14:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ Mili -:- To Mili, on begging the question -:- Sun, May 14, 2000 at 20:51:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ G -:- Accounting for his immense wealth -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 01:00:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Mili -:- Is your name George? -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 11:55:24 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- No, my name is not George. Why do you ask? -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 15:12:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Way -:- Advice to G -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 16:21:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- But then again... -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 19:59:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- To Mili, on the begging equation -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 12:37:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Brian -:- Ya gotta agree with the agreement, of course -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 03:12:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Good answer, Mili -:- Sun, May 14, 2000 at 21:39:22 (GMT)

Susan -:- Jesus joke politically incorrect -:- Sun, May 14, 2000 at 18:41:52 (GMT)

__ Way -:- Jesus joke politically incorrect -:- Sun, May 14, 2000 at 19:31:29 (GMT)

__ __ Susan -:- And he dressed so well! LOL thanks way! (nt) -:- Sun, May 14, 2000 at 21:34:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ Monmot -:- He Probably Started Toga Parties Too (nt) -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 02:21:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ Katie -:- Jesus jokes are great -:- Sun, May 14, 2000 at 23:59:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Even this one? -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 15:06:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Tasteless, but LOL! -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 14:43:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Tasteless, but LOL! -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 18:44:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- One more for the asking -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 19:44:17 (GMT)

A Friend -:- Should I be worried? -:- Sun, May 14, 2000 at 06:19:23 (GMT)

__ JW -:- Should I be worried? -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 17:16:34 (GMT)

__ A.P. -:- Should I be worried? -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 11:57:13 (GMT)

__ la-ex -:- Should I be worried? -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 04:42:52 (GMT)

__ __ JW -:- Excellent Questions....FA?? Or **BEST?** -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 18:04:55 (GMT)

__ VP -:- Should I be worried? -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 02:24:09 (GMT)

__ CD -:- Should I be worried? -:- Sun, May 14, 2000 at 23:50:47 (GMT)

__ Loaf -:- Should I be worried?IMO ...No...BUT -:- Sun, May 14, 2000 at 16:15:21 (GMT)

__ Helen -:- Should I be worried? -:- Sun, May 14, 2000 at 15:09:21 (GMT)

__ Gerry Springer -:- Should I be worried?Gerry! Gerry! Gerry! -:- Sun, May 14, 2000 at 13:48:39 (GMT)

__ Angry -:- Should I be worried?/Yes.... -:- Sun, May 14, 2000 at 09:26:31 (GMT)

__ Robyn -:- Should I be worried? -:- Sun, May 14, 2000 at 07:19:22 (GMT)

__ __ James Flynn -:- Should I be worried? -:- Sun, May 14, 2000 at 12:04:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ Stonor -:- Should I be worried? IMO, yes. -:- Sun, May 14, 2000 at 13:30:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ zelda -:- Should I be worried? IMO, yes. -:- Sun, May 14, 2000 at 17:24:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- wow, that was really interesting.... -:- Sun, May 14, 2000 at 18:49:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ zelda -:- wow, that was really interesting.... -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 07:36:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Excellent Insights...and a question -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 19:11:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Emotional Black Holes -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 15:20:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Infinity Soup -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 14:56:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- wow, that was really interesting.... -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 13:48:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Didn't someone once say... -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 15:42:25 (GMT)

Susan -:- Something is still wrong with the board -:- Sun, May 14, 2000 at 01:29:10 (GMT)

__ Brian -:- Something is still wrong with the board -:- Sun, May 14, 2000 at 02:46:19 (GMT)

__ __ Susan -:- you are right -:- Sun, May 14, 2000 at 02:58:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ Brian -:- Frames vs no-frames -:- Sun, May 14, 2000 at 12:40:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ cq -:- Frames vs no-frames -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 18:00:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Brian -:- Frames vs no-frames -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 22:29:09 (GMT)

Alien Al -:- a man talks of good over bad... -:- Sat, May 13, 2000 at 21:58:46 (GMT)

__ UFO Ursula -:- a woman talks of good over bad... -:- Sun, May 14, 2000 at 18:41:56 (GMT)

__ another lousy poet -:- a man talks of good over bad... -:- Sun, May 14, 2000 at 01:09:18 (GMT)

__ __ another Alien Al -:- a man talks of good over bad... -:- Sun, May 14, 2000 at 04:43:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ Scott T. -:- a man talks of good over bad... -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 13:56:02 (GMT)

Jim -:- Did Maharaji really do this to you, Ivete? -:- Sat, May 13, 2000 at 18:25:39 (GMT)

__ Larkin -:- 'Platitude' -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 13:09:11 (GMT)

__ Daneane -:- Bunch of words -:- Sun, May 14, 2000 at 01:25:19 (GMT)

__ __ Jim -:- That's a great question -:- Sun, May 14, 2000 at 02:34:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ Hal -:- Jim, that's a superb answer. (BEST OF) nt -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 10:53:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ JW -:- Good job at describing what it was really like.... -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 19:22:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Jim, when was the turning point for you? (nt) -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 14:33:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ AJW -:- Great post Jim (nt) -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 07:57:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ cq -:- Seconded. And thanks Daneane 4 a good question(nt) -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 15:46:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ hamzen -:- And no lila without the acid before (nt) -:- Sun, May 14, 2000 at 23:27:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ Daneane -:- You 60's babes -:- Sun, May 14, 2000 at 14:32:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ Monmot -:- Bingo, Jim, You Hit The Nail On The Head -:- Sun, May 14, 2000 at 03:00:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Way -:- Yes, Monmot.. the 'Snap'... -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 19:18:28 (GMT)

__ Oliver -:- Did Maharaji really do this to you, Ivete? -:- Sun, May 14, 2000 at 00:38:28 (GMT)

__ __ Yeah!! -:- Is retarded!!! NT -:- Sun, May 14, 2000 at 08:31:25 (GMT)

__ raina -:- I was really hoping to get your opinion.... -:- Sat, May 13, 2000 at 21:27:59 (GMT)

Mahatma Loafanand Butter -:- Trainings (from thread below).... -:- Sat, May 13, 2000 at 14:51:36 (GMT)

__ Helen -:- Trainings (from thread below).... -:- Sun, May 14, 2000 at 04:16:08 (GMT)

__ Elaine -:- I didn't write that..:) nt -:- Sat, May 13, 2000 at 17:14:00 (GMT)

Helen -:- What is the purpose of your life? -:- Sat, May 13, 2000 at 14:22:35 (GMT)

__ cq -:- er ... is it to find out life's purpose? (nt) -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 12:46:13 (GMT)

__ SB -:- Happy Mother's day to you too!! nt -:- Sat, May 13, 2000 at 21:36:28 (GMT)

__ VP -:- What is the purpose of your life? -:- Sat, May 13, 2000 at 17:40:31 (GMT)

__ __ Helen -:- What is the purpose of your life? -:- Sun, May 14, 2000 at 04:19:17 (GMT)

__ Elaine -:- Post below and SB... -:- Sat, May 13, 2000 at 17:11:25 (GMT)

__ __ SB -:- Sorry Elaine, life is not to be.... -:- Sat, May 13, 2000 at 21:34:12 (GMT)

__ Powerman -:- What is the purpose of your life? -:- Sat, May 13, 2000 at 15:12:12 (GMT)

__ __ raina -:- Why is the sky not red? nt -:- Sat, May 13, 2000 at 20:47:36 (GMT)

__ __ Helen -:- What is the purpose of your life? -:- Sat, May 13, 2000 at 16:47:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ raina -:- What is the purpose of your life? -:- Sat, May 13, 2000 at 21:44:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ Runamok -:- Why the one-size fits all approach? -:- Sat, May 13, 2000 at 20:56:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Helen -:- Why the one-size fits all approach? -:- Sun, May 14, 2000 at 04:16:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Oliver -:- Because there is one size that fits all. -:- Sun, May 14, 2000 at 01:36:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Because there is one size that fits all. -:- Sun, May 14, 2000 at 20:11:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Nausea -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 17:06:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Powerman -:- I think you're wrong, G -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 18:49:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- 'continuing the species' as 'the' purpose of life -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 01:17:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Powerman -:- 'continuing the species' as 'the' purpose of life -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 02:08:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- the Creator -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 23:10:10 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Powerman -:- the Creator -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 00:57:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- the Creator -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 02:03:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- 'continuing the species' as 'the' purpose of life -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 04:29:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- G, don't get sucked in by Powerman -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 03:35:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Don't worry -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 23:29:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Powerman -:- Don't worry -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 00:51:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Ok, I'll go with that, I was just checking (nt) -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 02:12:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Powerman -:- Helen -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 04:49:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Powerman -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 19:05:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- I think you're wrong, G -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 20:16:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Powerman -:- I think you're wrong, G -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 22:02:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- you are just too hip to be bothered -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 22:28:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Powerman -:- you are just too hip to be bothered -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 22:46:24 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- you just 'big yawned' me--you ARE one with Jim -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 23:42:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Powerman -:- you just 'big yawned' me--you ARE one with Jim -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 00:04:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- wank your own noodle -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 02:17:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Powerman -:- wank your own noodle -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 04:59:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- What's this nasty tone? -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 23:20:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- Because there is one size that fits all. -:- Sun, May 14, 2000 at 19:58:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Oliver -:- Because there is one size that fits all. -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 05:20:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ Elaine -:- What is the purpose of your life?/Laws... -:- Sat, May 13, 2000 at 18:41:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Is this Sunday School? -:- Sun, May 14, 2000 at 22:25:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Is this Sunday School? -:- Sun, May 14, 2000 at 22:27:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Okay, hit me -- Helen's Sunday School class -:- Sun, May 14, 2000 at 22:49:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Okay, hit me -- Helen's Sunday School class -:- Sun, May 14, 2000 at 23:02:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Doney -:- Helen, have compassion...... -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 20:03:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Helen, have compassion...... -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 20:10:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- YOU TAUGHT PRE-SCHOOL??! HOLY COW! -:- Sun, May 14, 2000 at 23:39:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- God, I am getting into it with Jim... -:- Sun, May 14, 2000 at 23:09:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- it's easy Helen it goes like this.. -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 05:40:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- it's easy Helen it goes like this.. -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 19:58:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- time out's DID work on my toddlers you got a point -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 21:37:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- time out's DID work on my toddlers you got a point -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 22:24:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Powerman -:- What's this? -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 00:25:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- What's this? -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 01:20:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Powerman -:- What's this? -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 04:15:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- What's this? -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 20:07:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Powerman -:- What's this? -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 22:24:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- What's this? -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 22:34:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Powerman -:- What's this? -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 23:30:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- How about just working toward the ideal? -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 23:25:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- How about just working toward the ideal? -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 23:37:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- What's this? -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 01:26:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Your sarcasm is tiresome and overused (nt) -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 17:11:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ Powerman -:- What is the purpose of your life? -:- Sat, May 13, 2000 at 17:54:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Robyn -:- What is the purpose of your life? -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 03:27:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ VP -:- What is the purpose of your life? -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 02:46:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Powerman -:- What is the purpose of your life? -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 04:22:27 (GMT)

__ __ Robyn -:- What is the purpose of your life? -:- Sat, May 13, 2000 at 16:39:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ Helen -:- What is the purpose of your life? -:- Sun, May 14, 2000 at 04:22:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ Powerman -:- What is the purpose of your life? -:- Sat, May 13, 2000 at 18:07:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Robyn -:- What is the purpose of your life? -:- Sun, May 14, 2000 at 08:16:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ ET -:- The purpose of life is to realize Knowledge. (nt) -:- Sun, May 14, 2000 at 13:23:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- The purpose of life is to realize Knowledge. (nt) -:- Sun, May 14, 2000 at 13:45:49 (GMT)

__ Gregg -:- Life's Porpoise -:- Sat, May 13, 2000 at 14:59:05 (GMT)

Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 09:22:44 (GMT) From: Angry Email: None To: Everyone Subject: The most manipulative cult song Message:

'I would give anything I own, just to see you again' or 'focus your mind on the form of Maharaji' (then known as Guru Maharaj Ji)

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 17:36:05 (GMT) From: Gail Email: None To: Angry Subject: The most manipulative cult song Message:

Always remember his every word is holy. Always pranam to the lotus feet of Fatguru. Dah Dah Dah In case you didn't know, that song was re-released a few years back as an instrumental--of course, we couldn't have the new folks exposed to drone, eh! However, we old timers happily sang the tune--the brainwash runs deep!

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 14:22:32 (GMT) From: Paul Email: None To: Angry Subject: My vote's with ARTI. 'You are my mother, Message:

you are my father, you are my all, my lord to me.' Followed by the various verses declaring his greatness as protector of the weary and weak, and whose glory fills the world. And consider that this was sung every morning and night in the ashram with as much devotion and surrender as one could muster.

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 19:06:04 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Paul Subject: Agree with Paul Message:

The constant repetition made the words to Arti really sink in deeply.

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 14:33:46 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: Katie Subject: Arti for arts sake... Message:

Hiya Katie, Mainly just saying 'hi' 'coz I haven't for a while! Actually, Loafji (who lives a couple of miles from me) and I got together with a couple of guitars the other week and laid down a definitive version of Larkin's alternative Arti. Loaf has this fine high tenor voice, complete with authentic Mahatma-esque warble... you wanna hear him do those 'Jai gurudevs'. The tape is punctuated with many sponteneous fits of the giggles. Highly recommended desensitisation therapy to the long-term effects of the premie anthem. We may start work on a Loaf'n'Larkin CD soon, time and inclination permitting. BTW: Loaf is this sort of theatrical man-mountain type guy and an absolute hoot - though I don't know if he'll thank me for saying so. But he does call me 'skinny little runt!' (the fat git.)

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 14:46:11 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Arti for arts sake... Message:

Hi again, Nigel - Sounds like you'd be able to market quite a few copies of that CD if you ever get it made :). I like the name Loaf'n Larkin, BTW.

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 16:58:06 (GMT) From: We Should Have Sung Email: None To: Paul Subject: 'Jerimiah was a Bullfrog.....' Message:

....He wants me to think he's a good friend of mine' Angry

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 18:12:53 (GMT) From: Pauline Premie Email: None To: We Should Have Sung Subject: My Favorite.... Message:

'All We Are Is Dust In The Wind,' which I think was sung by that excellent 70s group, Kansas, or was it Nebraska? Alabama maybe? Well, it doesn't matter because those people did NOT write that song. It was Maharaji who wrote it by his grace and it is just SO TRUE, although, really we don't even rise to the level of dust. Without Maharaji, we are really nothing more than toilet bowl scum.

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 04:46:35 (GMT) From: The Song That I Sing Now Email: None To: Pauline Premie Subject: How can I miss you ..... Message:

....WHEN YOU WON'T GO AWAY! by Dan Hicks and the Hot Licks featuring his Lickettes. What a great band from the 70's which would be totally UPC in these 'enlightened times.'

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 17:57:48 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: The Song That I Sing Now Subject: ... talk too much you worry me to death ... Message:

He's a man With a plan Got a counterfeit dollar in his hand He's Misstra Know-It-All Playin' hard Talkin' fast Makin' sure that he won't be the last He's Misstra Know-It-All Makes a deal With a smile Knowin' all the time that his lie's a mile He's Misstra Know-It-All Must be seen There's no doubt He's the coolest one with the biggest mouth He's Misstra Know-It-All If you tell him he's livin' fast He will say what do you know If you had my kind of cash You'd have more than one place to go oh Oou...oou...oou oou...oou... Any place He will play His only concern is how much you'll pay He's Misstra Know-It-All If he shakes On a bet He's the kind of dude that won't pay his debt He's Misstra Know-It-All When you say that he's living wrong He'll tell you he knows he's livin' right And you'd be a stronger man if you took Misstra Know-It-All's advice oh oh Oou...oou...oou oou...oou... He's a man With a plan Got a counterfeit dollar in his hand He's Misstra Know-It-All Take my work Please beware Of a man that just don't give a care no He's Misstra Know-It-All (Look out he's coming) Dum bum bum ba bum bum, Dum bum bum ba bum bum Bum bum bum bum bum Say He's Misstra Know-It-All Can this line Take his hand Take your hat off to the man who's got the plan He's Misstra Know-It-All Every boy take your hand To the man that's got the plan He's Misstra Know-It-All Give a hand to the man Don't you know darn well he's got the super plan He's Misstra Know-It-All Give a hand to the man You know damn well he's got the super plan He's Misstra Know-It-All If we had less of him Don't you know we'd have a better land He's Misstra Know-It-All So give a hand to the man Although you've given out as much as you can He's Misstra Know-It-All Check his sound out He'll tell it all Hey You talk too much you worry me to death He's Misstra Know-It-All

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 21:35:11 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: cq Subject: hey, good one! Message:

I reckon that is the first post-premie parody that didn't need a single word changing! (And why the fuck can't Stevie Wonder be as good as he used to be?) 'Transcendental Meditation Speaks of inner revelation Transcendental Meditation Gives you peace of mi-i-ind... You better tell your story fast And if you lie, it will come to pass...'

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 02:04:22 (GMT) From: Spy Daneane Email: Daneaneg@earthlink.net To: Bob Subject: Hey Bob!!! Secrets Within!!!(Very OT) Message:

Secret files, codes and documents revealed...if you know the secret handshake.

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 02:52:05 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Spy Daneane Subject: Bob? you too? Message:

I didn't know.

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 05:22:23 (GMT) From: Oliver Email: None To: Selene Subject: What's it all about? Message:

Hi Selene, Just over here while the dust settles in that other place. Quite a ruckus huh? Good to see it's getting back to normal. Sleep tight tonight. Oliver

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 05:52:56 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Oliver Subject: nothing I hope Message:

just ex-premie.org. A site for people interested in finding out information about Maharaji's cult. And leaving the cult. And they can participate in a discussion that is sometimes about it. Bob? well bob is another story for another time.

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 01:07:42 (GMT) From: raina Email: None To: Everyone Subject: they need to build more and more prisons for peopl Message:

like me..... to protect the likes of Stonor and RD Laing I'm sure I'll have nightmares of RD singing 'Raina and Mila kissing in a tree' while Brian covers my mouth with duct tape............. Now I'm officially BLOCKED according to a post signed by Brian.... So you can all celebrate!!!! (don't know why this is going thru- but figured I'd say goodbye....) Certainly I deserve this for not being able to think of more apporopriate responses to the nonsense I've hang slung at me far too often.........

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 02:20:26 (GMT) From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: raina Subject: Take deep breaths Message:

I made no such post, and you are obviously not blocked. The fact that you posted this gibberish is evidence enough that you are well able to post. I DID however lock the forum while testing the scripts. It took about 2 minutes, and wasn't meant as 'duct tape' towards anyone in particular. In a post below I said that I'd be working on the forum software this weekend and would probably lock it at times. Only FA's block people. I'm just the maintenance man here... Chill out. The work isn't done yet, and the forum will be locked at times during the next few days when I get a chance to get to it. You can, of course, assume the worst at those times too...

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 02:00:12 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: raina Subject: Take deep breaths Message:

Raina where have you been? I've grown accustomed to that certain edginess that makes suburban girl scout leaders like myself green with envy. Where ya been hiding girl?

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 02:40:53 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: raina Subject: I reposted one of your posts and saved it... Message:

It was a brilliant piece of writing. whoever you are you will not be forgotten by me.

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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 02:51:42 (GMT) From: raina Email: None To: Selene Subject: sucker 4 flattery Message:

you manipulator! I almost responded to an earlier misunderstanding where you thought I thought you wanted me gone....but i knew you'd know better... i have a question? is 'susan' by chance susan stiffleman? not that i would expect anyone to reveal their anonymity.... part of my interest in this place was to gradually get to find out what happened to the people I met during M daze....... +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Oh! and To All: p.s. if anyone wants to send me a treatment for a Maharji spoof-documentary? Cecil B. De Mille and I email together back and forth pretty regularly (emphasis on 'pretty'). We don't know each other REAL well....I just pretend to be his naughty lover. But I'm SURE he'd be FASCINATED by any ideas that came from ME. I give great eHead!

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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 03:08:47 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: raina Subject: desperately seeking susan Message:

nah... don't know her. she talks a lot to Jim though. So I'm supposed to figure out where you and Celil do your thing? thanks. ha. I knew we had some things in common but did you have to point it out here in this place?? whatever will happen to my reputation?

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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 05:09:03 (GMT) From: raina Email: None To: Selene Subject: no way... Message:

the cecil thing was 'poking' (no pun) fun at sb offering to 'pitch' ideas to michael moore... shit! if you didn't catch that i guess no one will! (if i didn't spell it out here!) fuck! now the shit's gonna start! (ask me if i care!) luv ya still

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Date: Sun, May 14, 2000 at 22:25:59 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Everyone Subject: 750,000 people at the Million Mom March Message:

or at least that's what Rosie O'DOnnell, the M.C. said. It sure felt and looked like it. It was very intense. A lot of speakers were crying--they were emergency room doctors (who would be glad to be put out of business), a mom whose 14 month old infant was shot (can you imagine her pain) and Sarah Brady (god she is a gutsy woman). Susan Sarandan ('we are pissed off. Happy Mother's Day!')...a lot of folks carrying signs with their dead loved ones on them (more people that I can count). It was very intense. I wondered how my daughter was taking it, hearing all these horrible stories. What a backward nation we are. I took photos of people carrying great signs: 'Mammas don't let your children grow up to be spineless Congressmen.' 'Charleston Heston thinks he is Moses giving the gun commandment' 'Guns--Go to Time Out' 'George Dubya Bush + the Nra = Columbine 2' 'Some people love their guns more than they love their children.' 'They can invent a gun that shoots underwater but not a childproofed gun.' You know that last quote reminds me of how the automobile industry didn't make cars safer until there was public pressure. God I hope this march makes a difference. If you are as angry as I am on this issue please make your voice heard at the polls!!!! Helen

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 16:53:45 (GMT) From: JW Email: None To: Helen Subject: Shameless plug -- but related Message:

A guy I know, Jay Martel, who is actually the son of one of my firm's partners, is a bit of an iconoclast, but is usually quite funny. He has been the recipient of numerous EMMY and Writer's Guild nominations for his work as head writer for Michael (ROGER AND ME) Moore's show, TV NATION. For the next two weeks of Moore's current show, THE AWFUL TRUTH (BRAVO, Wednesday night), Jay has moved in front of the camera. I understand that he takes on the gun lobby in a very funny and irreverent way, as Michael Moore's shows usually do. So, view at your own risk, particularly if you belong to the NRA. I guess Mike isn't around, but I do wonder what he would say about your comments, Helen.

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 20:28:43 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: JW/Katie Subject: JW and Katie Message:

JW--Thanks for the tip--I will try to catch it as I have Bravo. There was another sign, I can't remember verbatim, I took a picture of it though. Something about the NRA being a bunch of 'drama queens'. It was hysterical. There was a counter march down there as well, the '2nd Amendment Sisters'. Fortunately they were only about 10,000 strong, and I didn't have the pleasure of running into them. President Clinton made the statement, 'Actually, guns DO kill people.' Hilary said 'we moms don't want a piece of jewelry, flowers, or a fancy lunch out. We want a safe world for our children.' Guess Hilary is stumping for the women's vote in New York, and Bill can say whatever the hell he wants now that he's on his way out. I can't remember him being particulary active on this issue, can you? Gore had better step it up on the issue. I think Dubya has the majority of the women's vote now. Katie, Thanks. I think the message is loud and clear: women of this country perceive guns to be more of a threat than a deterent to threat. The inspiring thing yesterday was seeing families from all walks of life--Chevy Chase types in designer clothes walking hand in hand with black grandmothers. Conservative Mothers and their multi-pierced tatooed daughters. Courteney Love and Sarah Brady. Thousands and thousands of women men and children who are FED UP! It was pretty cool. It was upsetting too, to hear all the stories all together in one place. It really makes you feel weird to live in such a barbaric and backward country that literally loves an idea (2nd amendment rights) more than a reality (12 children killed each day).

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 03:20:41 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Helen Subject: Go Moms! Message:

I'm really proud of you for going, Helen - you go, girl! And I hope it makes a big difference too.

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Date: Sun, May 14, 2000 at 20:12:49 (GMT) From: Runamok Email: None To: Everyone Subject: On kissing ass (and on kissing M's ass) Message:

I think it's easier to kiss someone's ass who you don't know (or know substantially). Voila: M. Premies push the idea that M can do no wrong, that whatever he might have done wrong is inconsequential, a false rumor or attributable to someone 'under' him. They hyper-brownnose him. It's easier to live in a dream world thinking that David Letterman (or M) loves you or something. We are all going to ponder the celebrities that we are so (over)exposed to, but a healthy person (functioning person for the PC-minded) knows how to get to work and apply the same tedious concern to their boss, spouse and others. These are people who can appreciate our efforts, pay us or otherwise reciprocate. They are not distant figures on a stage who have little or (more likely) absolutely no knowledge of us. Kissing ass is a part of life. It's not the most purposeful or metaphysically deep part of it. Most of the people that we have to do it to have more to offer than an annual sock in our face (i.e., darshan for the oldsters in the crowd) or whatever minor interaction that M lowers himself to for the sake of PR.

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 03:25:02 (GMT) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Runamok Subject: I love David Letterman Message:

It's easier to live in a dream world thinking that David Letterman (or M) loves you or something. We are all going to ponder the celebrities that we are so (over)exposed to, but a healthy person (functioning person for the PC-minded) knows how to get to work and apply the same tedious concern to their boss, spouse and others. These are people who can appreciate our efforts, pay us or otherwise reciprocate. They are not distant figures on a stage who have little or (more likely) absolutely no knowledge of us. ****************************************************** Hey Runamok, I love David Letterman. What's wrong with that? I also love Ram Dass, Alan Watts, John Wayne, Barbara Feldon (Agent 99 on Get Smart), Joe Montana, Johnny Carson, Annie Lennox, the list goes on. I know these people don't know me, and they are not likely to come over to the house for supper. Does that mean I'm unhealthy and can't function in the world? Get real! -- Dogg

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 10:17:42 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: I love David Letterman Message:

Dog: Being able to tolerate Richard Alpert without going into dry heaves is clear evidence of psychosis. Careful who you sleep with... Scott T.

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 04:16:54 (GMT) From: Runamok Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: I love David Letterman Message:

That's the first time I've really agreed with you in quite awhile, Scott. Cheers!

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 01:31:25 (GMT) From: Lotus Eater Email: None To: Runamok Subject: On kissing ass (and on kissing M's ass) Message:

Completely agreed, in my experience, apart from the 'ease factor'. When you are paying attention to people whom you actually know and are there with you, there's 'no room for doubt'(giggle) if they push you too far you can push back, when they smile a response you can accept it. Someone you see on a stage is a different kettle of fish, especially when you have a deep seated idea that he is the source of love in the world (I wonder where I got that idea from?) now, there is all the room in the world for doubt, fear, terror, uncertainty, agony, ooh I could go on and on. LE

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 05:57:00 (GMT) From: Runamok Email: None To: Lotus Eater Subject: on the same page LE? Message:

It's easy to pretend someone up on a stage has all kinds of mystique. After all, you'll probably never have enough interaction to confirm or deny it. It took me about 10 years to replace the 'devotion' for M with the actual ability to make jobs permanent or semi-permanent by benig devoted enough to my employer for him/her to trust me. At least with people who are famous, they have an excuse. M always encouraged a fanatical devotion that he could never possibly keep attract of or respond to on an individual basis. I'm sure he's lightened up on the rhetoric of devotion, but can you think of any possible reason he might have had for urging people to give all their posessions to him (literally- or allowing his lieutenants to urge this of his disciples). People in Hollywood have some kind of reason to be up on a stage. Rawatt's seem to be how much he can hustle people out of.

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 22:59:34 (GMT) From: Lotus Eater Email: None To: Runamok Subject: on the same page LE? Message:

When I first started reading this site, I was going, yes, that's true, that happened, how could I have forgotten, ignored so much, finally, I unearthed a copy of the peace bomb satsang. God it was funny, like a teenager on acid having a massive ego attack! I don't think I have had enough personal interaction with m to make a judgement as to his motivations, probably just as woolly and changeable as anybody elses. There's another aspect too, my emotional investment. I remember the first time I walked into a little hall in London in 1973, I felt like I had found a friend. 27 years later, I am busy undoing the mess. Reading this site has helped so much, first step is to keep thinking, feeling and talking for myself...it's a lot of fun. LE PS what was the meaning of the subject heading?

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 01:35:47 (GMT) From: Runamok Email: None To: Lotus Eater Subject: ass versus foot kissing Message:

When you are caught up an extremely muddled con from some character with a 'Master' masquerade, you risk the ability to suck up to the people you have to suck up to, because all that energy is mobilised for a suck up supreme. It won't get you anywhere except confused (and thinking you have found something). While we are quick to list M's offenses, we aren't as quick to list how we are impacted as individuals. I think we are often financially hit. Our careers are relegated to second, as are our relationships and our education. Sucking up, kissing ass, brownnosing. It would be nice to think that none of us ever has to do it, but realistically anyone who works for someone else, and maybe anyone in a relationship has to minimize their own desires at times in the name of co-existence. That's why leaving Mirage begins a process that takes years to finish, because we trained ourselves in the opposite direction that we should have. If sucking up is a part of life, it's only logical to do it when there is a direct reward. Instead we created a mythology of reward and made Rawatt the Supreme Ass to kiss.

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 07:30:37 (GMT) From: Lotus Eater Email: None To: Runamok Subject: ass versus foot kissing Message:

Yes, I can sense this is a process that is going to be going for a long time, it's a major relief to be embarked upon it though. For me, my subconscious was ahead of my poor mind, and erupted with powerful imagery and emotion, I really have been fighting for survival (one 'thirst' I definitely acknowledge!) so now with a little help from you guys, my conscious mind has caught up,it is GREAT to get my giggle back, it disappeared for a couple of years. I am very much in the business of counting the impact it has had on me, it seems to be important to understand for myself, however I now feel freed up enough to take a relaxed go at it. you wrote: Instead we created a mythology of reward and made Rawatt the Supreme Ass to kiss. just to bring a smile to my face, or can you expand? Lotus eater

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 04:10:41 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: Runamok Subject: sucking/up Message:

What an interesting post. I think you should move it up to answer 'A friend's' question. My life has been a bit of the reverse, oddly enough. I put too much into everyone else and not enough into myself in some ways. I have had to find the balance from another angle. 'Sucking up' is something I've never liked to do. The word suggests falseness to me. I do try to 'respect' people I interact with, but it isn't always easy (apologies to whoever). As a teacher I've found it amazing how many students try to suck up to you , not the children, nor the teenagers, but the adults I've usually taught. How can a relationship be of value if it's based on sucking up? I don't have the time or the stomach to listen to it anymore. Basically I like people and get along well with everyone. But I spend most of my free time alone for various reasons, including that most people are into sucking, or being sucked. (IMO of course) The thing is, everyone does it to some extent; there can be a very fine line between being a good friend and sucking/up. Is this your definition of 'sucking up?' It would be nice to think that none of us ever has to do it, but realistically anyone who works for someone else, and maybe anyone in a relationship has to minimize their own desires at times in the name of co-existence. How can I give too much to other people if I don't like to 'suck up?' The problem is to some extent with social conditioning and roles projected on to us. But men have also found that I spend too much time on my work, studies and other projects. And many of my colleagues see that extra work as sucking up - but as a few people know, it has nothing to do with sucking up, or making more money - it's just what I do. Even in the field of entertainment, there are those who are who they are, and do what they do. They are not all media products, nor do they get the same superstardom, but some of them create something much more special. And not all of them suck up or let themselves be sucked. But there are also many different ways to avoid these two extremes. Maybe that's one of the purposes of our lives. Stonor

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 04:10:31 (GMT) From: Runamok Email: None To: Stonor Subject: sucking/up Message:

I guess a healthier person, especially who has never been a premie, might start out in adult life with less duality about those kinds of issues. For those of us who actually use to kiss those stinky feet, it probably makes more sense. But some people can show respect to others and follow formalities without ever having any sense of compromise. Even for you, I'm sure there is a sense of meeting halfway or something like that. When it's strained or undesirable, it could be characterized as ass-kissing. As a premie, I'd say I use a Supreme Ass for my personal kissing as a way to mask my own feelings of superiority. One of those complexes (inferiority/superiority). I thought I knew the meaning of life and the person in front of me couldn't because they didn't kiss M's ass (i.e., feet). Meanwhile, people I needed to show more respect to were seen as either premies or not, and then according to how much they were good premies or bad prospects. It faded in time but the reality of needing to respect others wasn't a well-nourished area of growth, because after all, I show respect to God in the form of this greaseball from India. Truthfully, these are skills necessary to our financial and emotional survival. BTW, since Lotus Eater asked, Supreme Ass may be a clever turn of the phrase but mostly it fits M'ragey really well.

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Date: Sun, May 14, 2000 at 19:16:38 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Mili Subject: To Mili, on the blessings of Knowledge Message:

Mili, I am responding to your post below in which you let me know that you do not have the time to fuck around with me. I am a bit disappointed because, simply and sincerely put, I think you missed an opportunity to manifest Knowledge. You refused to answer my questions about both Maharaji and Knowledge. But why? I should think that a premie would be quite willing to take a little time and effort to simply and clearly describe the benefits of practicing Knolwedge and to do so in a way that manifests a little of those benefits. But you did not do so. I can very readily recognize and acknowledge when any person is manifesting their own higher self, no matter what their religious affiliations may be. I have no qualms about recognizing that humility, harmony and higher well-being when it is demonstrated by a practicing premie. I would in fact be happy to see such an expression and would not find it in any way confronting. I practiced Knowledge for many years and I know its benefits from first-hand experience. Since you would not describe those benefits, allow me. They are: -Basking in the quietude of one's inner self safely above the ego's collection of neuroses. -The harmony of mutual well-wishing among friends and the universal benevolence toward all beings. -The comfort of following the words and advice of a valued teacher. -A sense of surrender and acceptance of life as it is, for as long as we have it. These are some of the gifts that we all seek when we turn from the immediate concerns of body and self to our larger concerns. But the question I now ask is: where and how shall we seek these gifts? To whom should we turn? Do I consider my own gifts from 'Knowledge' superior to those of any other seeker? No, I do not. Do I consider the four techniques of Knowledge to be the best way to acquire these gifts? No, I do not. Do I consider Mr. Rawat the superior Master of these gifts. No, I do not. Do I consider him in any way whatsoever the source of these gifts. No, I do not, and in fact, I believe that Mr. Rawat does a grave dis-service to these gifts whenever he claims to be their source. Do I wish for everyone to discover and share these gifts, as they see fit? Yes. I do.

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 16:40:50 (GMT) From: Gregg Email: None To: Way Subject: The Blessings of following a Path Message:

I think it's healthy to acknowledge, as Way just has, the good feelings that following Maharaj ji engendered. Just like, when talking about why drugs are bad, it's good to acknowledge why people take drugs. (they make you feel good). Too bad PWK's like Mili refuse to engage in a discussion about the bad or the good. Requires thinking. Not a strong point in premies, using the mind. Mind bad, Guru good.

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Date: Sun, May 14, 2000 at 19:56:37 (GMT) From: Mili Email: mili@cheerful.com To: Way Subject: To Mili, on the blessings of Knowledge Message:

Err, excuse me, but if I got you right - you are saying that you value Knowledge a lot, but you say Mr Rawat is doing a dis-service by disseminating Knowledge to people. Isn't that somewhat contradictory? (And please don't give me that bullshit about him getting rich over it, because you know as well as I do that he doesn't charge money for Knowledge).

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Date: Sun, May 14, 2000 at 20:59:55 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Mili Subject: To Mili, on the blessings of Knowledge Message:

Mili, Well, that's not exactly what I mean to say. I will asssume for the moment that you are sincerely thinking about the issues here, and I will explain my position a little further. What I value is all the benefits that one can obtain from practicing a spiritual, religious, or artistic endeavor of some kind. Or just by living life as honestly as you can. I do acknowledge, as many exes do, that practicing Knowledge does bring about some of these benefits. That's really rather obvious, I think. And, I would not fault Mr. Rawat at all if what he did was to encourage people to find their highest potential, perhaps by recommending some sort of meditation, whichever ways fit a particular person, by serving humanity, by loving each other and all beings, by reaching for our goals, and being grateful for this life. Mr. Rawat does indeed say many of those exact words, but you and I know that isn't all that he says. He takes the innate blessings of life and assumes ownership, claiming that following him is 'the best thing happening in the world.' He debases whatever natural graces there are by identifying them with his own personality and particular teachings. He does this in exactly the same manner that countless other gurus have done and will continue to do. You bring up the money issue, which I consider a relatively lesser point, but nevertheless important. Mr. Rawat accepts money from his followers, in the name of Truth, for the express purpose of buying himself pleasure boats, etc. I do not believe it is the right thing for any person to give up their own hard earned money to enable some so-called Master to indulge himself in such a manner. If Mr. Rawat wanted these material things, he should go about it in a honorable manner than no one would feel confusion about. Instead, he sullies whatever Truth there is in the practice of Knowledge with his own narrow agenda. I haven't read your website for awhile, but I do know that you value other teachers and have a wide interest. I think perhaps our difference is that you give Mr. Rawat the benefit of many doubts and I no longer do. The most interesting thing on his website to me is the fact that he says that he is not a figurehead. For me, that is precisely what he was for me, and I can see no way for him to be anything more than just that. Again, if you see Mr. Rawat differently, you are certainly free to express your feelings here. If Knolwedge has made you so in touch with the higher realities of life, impress us!

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Date: Sun, May 14, 2000 at 21:13:37 (GMT) From: Mili Email: mili@cheerful.com To: Way Subject: To Mili, on the blessings of Knowledge Message:

Way, why don't you take some time to read Maharaji's site more carefully? Then maybe you'll see why he is not a figurehead, or an idol. One of the benefits of Knowledge for me has been to see more clearly through bullshit, and believe me - there's a lot of it in your post, whether you're aware of it or not.

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 10:26:08 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: Mili Subject: To Mili, on the nature of courteousness.. Message:

Mili, I as see it Way has gone out of his, er, way to engage with you in a a respectful, courteous manner, more so than many exes would - especially with someone who once tried to pull the plug on the ex-premie site, yet still sees no problem or contradiction in using the forum to host his own thoughts, as you do. As usual, you avoid the issue instead pointing obliquely at Maharaji's site as if it contained the answers to Way's questions. (Maharaji's site makes no mention of anybody called 'Mili', as I recall). Now you write this: One of the benefits of Knowledge for me has been to see more clearly through bullshit, and believe me - there's a lot of it in your post, whether you're aware of it or not. I bet you can't (a) identify the 'bullshit', or (b) justify your use of the term from anything contained in Way's posts, but I think common decency requires you should at least try.

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 14:15:31 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Nigel Subject: My thanks to Nigel Message:

I don't know why I bothered. My main problem is that I have a job that gives me time on my hands in front of my computer!

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 09:09:41 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: Way Subject: You were right the first time... Message:

...when you suggested Mili was like the kid you knew who only came out to throw rocks at the other kids. That 'bullshit' remark was just another rock. Now he's probably ducked back indoors. (I think his Mum must have called him in to dinner, or something!) I used to say a similar thing about CD's contributions here, comparing him to the kid who rings doorbells and runs away. A facility for open, honest (or even respectful) communication seems to be universally absent among cult members. Too risky?

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Date: Sun, May 14, 2000 at 20:14:08 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Mili Subject: To Mili, on begging the question Message:

Hey genius, By all accounts, Maharaji's rich. How'd that happen?

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Date: Sun, May 14, 2000 at 20:51:21 (GMT) From: Mili Email: mili@cheerful.com To: Jim Subject: To Mili, on begging the question Message:

How do I account for his 'immense wealth', Jim? Well, read this.

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 01:00:26 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Mili Subject: Accounting for his immense wealth Message:

You must be immensely gullible and bad at math. He has never had a paying job in his life (except being a guru, that pays really well). Yet he lives in a multi-million dollar mansion, has numerous luxury automobiles and mansions around the world, a multi-million dollar jet, an expensive watch collection, etc. I'd call that immense wealth, and I wouldn't put it in quotes. What exactly on his web site accounts for his wealth? What are you thinking? Let's take a look: ...contribute to the development and testing of software applications for the aviation industry. No detail is given and there is no indication that he made a significant amount of money doing this. Do you honestly think he was paid millions for this? ...invented and developed...other aviation-related products and has a patent pending on a watch he designed. Like what? Again, no detail is given and no there's no indication that he ever made any money from these 'products'. Maybe these products were luxury items custom made for him, like a form-fitted pilots chair. The watch. Oh yes, before he claimed to have an actual patent. Someone here did a patent search and found nothing and posted about it. Later, he added 'pending'. It's probably only a design patent. Patents do not imply monetary value; there are many absurd patents. My guess is that this refers to the watch with the Knowledge insignia which has been sold to premies. ...contributed to start-up companies... Where did the money come from for these investments? It takes money to make money. How much return did he make? Most likely these are premie-owned businesses. I would translate this to 'he was provided with stock in his followers' businesses at a cheap price'. ...is no charge for attending events at which Maharaji speaks... What about the pay-per-view broadcasts? They are not 'free-for-view'. And the 'cost' to attend the broadcasts in a community setting? ...advance registration for pre-assigned seats is offered at a nominal processing fee to cover administrative costs... nominal? administrative costs? Well, there goes the 'no charge' claim. ...receives no fees, honoraria, compensation, or benefits of any kind from any of the organizations... Not true. His jet is not compensation? From what I have read, his Malibu Marble Mansion is not in his name. What about all the money collected at darshan, all the 'donations' to Maharaji that were solicited by officials in Divine Light Mission/Elan Vital? ...organizations pay only for documented expenses related to his attendance... What expenses might be included? Luxury hotel suites.... Maybe rental of his recording studio?

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 11:55:24 (GMT) From: Mili Email: mili@cheerful.com To: G Subject: Is your name George? Message:

Is your name George?

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 15:12:18 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Mili Subject: No, my name is not George. Why do you ask? Message:

No, my name is not George. Why do you ask? Do you know someone named George? Is this some kind of oblique reference to George Washington, who supposedly never told a lie? I don't get it. Are you saying it's ok to lie like this? So what is your response to what I wrote? How about a little discussion here, I feel like this is a one-way conversation. I was a premie for a long time and always accepted that Maharaji gets his money from premies, it's obvious. Not only did I accept it, I was proud of it. It amazes me that you could think otherwise. I find this attempt at revisionism and deceit bizarre.

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 16:21:29 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: G Subject: Advice to G Message:

Take it from me, G, don't bother composing posts of several paragraphs on any serious topic addessed to Mili. He invariably responds with bewildering, meagerly-worded responses such as 'is your name George?' The same applies to Bjorn, Mel Bourne, X#%^*, and Dep Dogg, although Dogg was definitely good for a laugh today, at Jim's expense (I have actually wondered what kind of satsang Jim used to give). p.s. sorry Jim, we all share a similar embarassment around here!

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 19:59:54 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: Way Subject: But then again... Message:

I agree it is certainly frustrating trying to engage meaningfully with people who have big convictions but limited capacity for rational dialogue, but to others watching these exchanges might be hugely valuable. I mean, premie lurkers who - until Mili's post - might have shared similar beliefs regarding M's wealth will then read G's comprehensive rubbishing of it followed by the resounding silence from Mili. Premie evasiveness is one of the most useful and instructive features of this forum, IMO.

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 12:37:21 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Mili Subject: To Mili, on the begging equation Message:

Mili: How do I account for his 'immense wealth', Jim? Well, read this. I see what you mean. I don't accept cookies from sites I know nothing about, but the site you referenced is one of the few I've come across that wouldn't allow me to see anything without shoving a cookie down my throat. Worse, it wouldn't let me use the back button to get back here. Gotta hand it to you, you're right on the money. --Scott

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 03:12:26 (GMT) From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Mili Subject: Ya gotta agree with the agreement, of course Message:

Clicking on your link brings up a gibberish legalese page on Maharaji's own little website, ending with this bizarre (and perhaps divine) statement: By clicking on the 'Acceptance' button below and by accessing and using this Website, you acknowledge, accept, and agree to the above terms and conditions and you agree that we have fulfilled our side of the Agreement by providing you with access to this Website. If you do not agree to this Agreement you should not use this Website again. Even if you do not click on the 'Acceptance' button below, if you ever use this Website you will have accepted the terms of this Agreement. It's all so clear now, Mili...

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Date: Sun, May 14, 2000 at 21:39:22 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Mili Subject: Good answer, Mili Message:

reminds me how insightful, honest and intelligent you can be.

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Date: Sun, May 14, 2000 at 18:41:52 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Jesus joke politically incorrect Message:

THREE PROOFS THAT JESUS WAS MEXICAN 1. His first name was Jesus 2. He was bilingual 3. He was always being harassed by the authorities THREE PROOFS THAT JESUS WAS BLACK 1. He called everybody 'brother' 2. He liked Gospel 3. He couldn't get a fair trial THREE PROOFS THAT JESUS WAS JEWISH 1. He went into his father's business 2. He lived at home until he was 33 3. He was sure his mother was a virgin, and his mother was sure he was God THREE PROOFS THAT JESUS WAS ITALIAN 1. He talked with his hands 2. He had wine with every meal 3. He worked in the building trades THREE PROOFS THAT JESUS WAS CALIFORNIAN 1. He never cut his hair 2. He walked around barefoot 3. He started a new religion (and now the most compelling EVIDENCE) THREE PROOFS THAT JESUS WAS A WOMAN 1. She had to feed a crowd at a moment's notice when there was no food 2. She kept trying to get the message across to a bunch of men who just didn't get it 3. Even when she was dead, she had to get up because there was more work for her to do.

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Date: Sun, May 14, 2000 at 19:31:29 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Susan Subject: Jesus joke politically incorrect Message:

Yes, indeed that joke is politically incorrect - it includes everybody but gay people! Well! So, the proofs that he was gay are: He never married. His closest associates were all guys. He was absolutely fabulous.

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Date: Sun, May 14, 2000 at 21:34:48 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Way Subject: And he dressed so well! LOL thanks way! (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 02:21:00 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Susan Subject: He Probably Started Toga Parties Too (nt) Message:

nn

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Date: Sun, May 14, 2000 at 23:59:22 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Susan Subject: Jesus jokes are great Message:

Hi Susan - Someone sent me that joke in e-mail and I loved it...and Way's additions make it even better. Somewhere I have a list of why Elvis Presley was like Jesus that is pretty funny, not to mention VERY incorrect) - will have to dig it up. (Mickey P. thought it was a riot.) Take care - Katie

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 15:06:35 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: Katie Subject: Even this one? Message:

Jesus goes into an inn, places three nails on the counter and says: 'Can you put me up for the night?'

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 14:43:37 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Tasteless, but LOL! Message:

I'm saving that one for my next family gathering! My sister & mom will be ROTFL (not kidding). We have a couple of visually inspired Jesus joke things around our house - wish I could post them, because they are funny. How ya doing, Nigel? It's good to hear from you. Brian will be in the UK next week for business, but I'm not coming. We hope to come back later this year for pleasure, including (I hope) meeting you. Take care - Love, Katie

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 18:44:14 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: Katie Subject: Tasteless, but LOL! Message:

Hey, Katie, that would be brilliant if you and Brian do get to make it over here and do the trip up north. Really hope you can make it. (Promise there'll be no butt golf!) I'm still expecting to see Joe over here one of these days. re. that joke: I honestly believe if you told that one to the Pope himself he would bust a gut desperately trying NOT to chuckle.

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 19:44:17 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Nigel Subject: One more for the asking Message:

BUSINESS IS BUSINESS A young Jewish boy starts attending public school in a small town. The teacher of the one-room school decides to use her position to try to influence the new student. She asks the class, 'Who was the greatest man that ever lived?' A girl raises her hand and says, 'I think George Washington was the greatest man that ever lived because he is the Father of our country.' The teacher replies, 'Well... That's a good answer, but that's not the answer I am looking for.' Another young student raises his hand and says, 'I think Abraham Lincoln was the greatest man that lived because he freed the slaves and helped end the civil war.' 'Well, that's another good answer, but that is not the one I was looking for.' Then the new Jewish boy raises his hand and says, 'I think Jesus Christ was the greatest man that ever lived.' The teacher's mouth drops open in astonishment. 'Yes!' she says, 'That's the answer I was looking for.' She then brings him up to the front of the classroom and gives him a lollipop. Later, during recess, another Jewish boy approaches him as he is licking his lollipop. He says, 'Why did you say, 'Jesus Christ'?' The boy stops licking his lollipop and replies, 'I know it's Moses, and YOU know it's Moses, but business is business.

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Date: Sun, May 14, 2000 at 06:19:23 (GMT) From: A Friend Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Should I be worried? Message:

I recently discovered that a good friend of mine is a premie. He doesn't seem obsessed by it, and had he not told me I'd have never guessed. In fact, he's one of the most normal people I know. Something inside me doesn't like it though. I've nothing against meditation or Eastern religion. I do have something against any 'movement' that is based around a single person, though. He says it costs him nothing and helps him. Am I being paranoid in having a sense of unease? Grateful for any thoughts

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 17:16:34 (GMT) From: JW Email: None To: A Friend Subject: Should I be worried? Message:

There is a lot of excellent information and advice down below on this thread. Lots of excellent insights. I just wanted to make one comment. I think the most insidious thing about cult programming, and I say this because when I was a premie I was every bit as programmed, is the total blindness, or maybe it's lack of self-awareness among premies. For a premie to remain involved in the Maharaji cult he or she has to be totally convinced that the ridiculous things he or she says and believes are absolutely true, and it my be that your friend sincerely believes them. They also have to completely compartmenalize the contradictory things Maharaji has said and done over the years. It's a complicated process, but it can be fairly air tight. That is what is so dangerous about it. But it is telling that he has been so closed-mouthed about it all to you. He is at least aware that it would sound nuts, illogical and a bit scary to you to hear about the cult, which he doesn't think is a cult. You have to be 'ready' to hear it, in his belief system. In my opinion, the best way to innoculate yourself, and to help your friend, to the extent you can, is to become informed yourself about what the cult really is about. He will never tell you, but information is deadly to the Maharaji cult. And most premies engage in a lot of self-censorship of information to protect their cult-beliefs. And I also agree with what several other people said. Take care of yourself first. By all means don't get sucked in. Make it clear you are not interested and will never be. Make that very clear, otherwise he will always carry around the hope of making you a convert. It's just part of the premie hard-wiring.

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 11:57:13 (GMT) From: A.P. Email: None To: A Friend Subject: Should I be worried? Message:

A Friend, I think, if you mention the information you found to your friend, you will right away see how deeply connected he is, emotionally. If he is angry about you presenting him with the info, it is not going to be easy for him to see all of M's evils. He is programmed to believe that M can do no wrong, and the exes have created a site of lies and misconceptions. Well these sites do not contain lies but actual accounts and why would so many people come here and make this shit up? Come onnnnn. If he ever had any doubt whatsoever, he will read the sites and absorb the info. It can be done, premies are able to wake up see M for what he is. Look around here, it's all free! There are people that post here that were actually in the organization, they have first hand knowledge of wrongs that occurred within it. It's no bullshit. Yes M is bad news. But there are extremes to ones involvement. I know 1 premie that gives M $ every single month and pays for every single satelite broadcast, I know others that only go to programs, and others still that perform service for M. Hours of donated time and materials to make these programs happen. If you are a friend to this person, then your job is to point out bad things your friend may be involved in. I am very involved with a premie that has promised to give it all up, but still will not look at the website. It will effect my family if money is donated or time is wasted doing useless service for The big M. So to me it was very worth the fights I went through. How will your friends involvement interfere with your relationship? If it won't than let it be, it's not worth it. Although I would mention this site if I were you either way. Good luck It's not easy. Oh yea and if you decide it's worth a fight make sure you have read every single thing on these sites because a premie will have an answer for every single thing you say. If you read the entire site, you will have all the answers to those premie responces even before he says anything. It really worked for me. A.P.

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 04:42:52 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: A Friend Subject: Should I be worried? Message:

Dear friend-there are a few things that you might do, to see how your normal premie friend reacts.These are a few.... One, you could ask him what he thinks about this site. If he hasn't been on it, or refuses to check it out(as m has told the flock not to come here for fear of doubts and confusion), ask him what he /she thinks about some of the more hypocritical things that m has said and done, that are well documented here. Two,ask why m's site allows no space for feedback, and this one does. Three, since m charges no money for knowledge, and has never worked a day in his life at a job, how did he get so unbelievaably rich? Four, how does someone justify calling themselves God, announce he is bringing the kingdom of heaven on earth,that he removes all sins upon meeting him and receiving knowledge, and then say that he is just a meditation teacher, and never mention or address the previous claims? Five, since no one is perfect(except m, in the 70's, although maybe not now)ask him what he dislikes about m, knowledge and the group.What are his doubts. Six,ask him why 90% of the people who have received knowledge have left. Seven, ask him if he knows that m has had a serious drinking problem,which would not seem indicative of a person who has inner peace. Eight,why would m need numerous affairs and a long time mistress along with his wife and kids, when these are all illusory forms of love, and the real love is within? Nine, why won't m meet or address his critics and resolve the past, when he has severely disrupted and damaged thousands of lives, while getting rich off of them?Does that sound like the bringer of that joy, peace,harmony, contentment, tranquility, or whatever term he is currently using? Ten,why is it that all of these things, when observed in another group, add up to a cult, but with m, it isn't. There's a lot more, but that's off the top of my head, er heart, whatever, it's late, I'm going to bed, but you might start there for starters...

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 18:04:55 (GMT) From: JW Email: None To: la-ex Subject: Excellent Questions....FA?? Or **BEST?** Message:

Thanks, la-ex, excellent questions. They are so good, that maybe they could be included permanently on the website somewhere. We seem to get these inquiries from people who find out someone they know is a premie quite regularly. And it would be a good list to have. Thanks again.

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 02:24:09 (GMT) From: VP Email: None To: A Friend Subject: Should I be worried? Message:

A Friend, You said that something inside you doesn't like it. Well, I say, 'listen to that voice'. When we ignore our own instincts and feelings, we can get into trouble. You know there is something amiss and you are right. As for your friend, it's his life. Let him do what he wants. You can still be his friend. Just don't do anything that is against YOUR better judgement just because the two of you are friends. That is my advice. You can always agree to disagree on this one topic. Take Care, VP

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Date: Sun, May 14, 2000 at 23:50:47 (GMT) From: CD Email: None To: A Friend Subject: Should I be worried? Message:

>Am I being paranoid in having a sense of unease? Yes. There are many people who enjoy the 'knowledge'. Yes, this is contrary to many opinions on this forum. I ran into Maharaji and the knowledge in 1972. Would I want to change that? Definitely NO! CD

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Date: Sun, May 14, 2000 at 16:15:21 (GMT) From: Loaf Email: loafji@yahoo.com To: A Friend Subject: Should I be worried?IMO ...No...BUT Message:

Be aware that if you create an 'anti'M. feeling it could push him further 'IN' - and the difficult point is that because Knowledge is all Feeling Based - you can't argue with it. its a bit like getting into a relationship with an alcholholic or heroin user...they may be in denial, or they may admit they have a problem, but it is only when THEY want to do something about it that they will. So- point one - no pressure. Be Cool. Point two - Knowlege and Maharaji have many good points. Let us not deny these. Do not be blind to them to create an extreme for or against atmosphere. Mind you, water has good points too - but can still drown ya. Number three - It is getting harder and more expensive for people to be fully 'involved' in M's world. So, providing life is full of meaning and feeling, the centrifugal (or is it -pital ?) force which keeps people locked into it will loosen. All things must change. Be glad its not the 70s when extremism was the order of the day. So - on the whole relax and enjoy life. Don't be scared of M or Knowledge, but don't be blind to the fact that it for a large part is a crutch for emotionally damaged, needy, manipulative and slightly 'superior' people. (By that I mean spiritually elite and a bit snobby). People like me basically. Keep in touch Loaf

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Date: Sun, May 14, 2000 at 15:09:21 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: A Friend Subject: Should I be worried? Message:

Well isn't it sad that we can't be natural with premie friends? Like why can't a person just say , ' I found this website that has alot of good information on Maharaji, check it out' It's almost like the old proverbial pink elephant in the living room, noone dares to speak its name. I still say it's worth a try, if your friend is normal as you say, they should be able to hear a bit of it. Just remember, premies exist in a data vacuum when it comes to M, so your friend may know nothing of what's here. It can be devastasting even for marginal premies.

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Date: Sun, May 14, 2000 at 13:48:39 (GMT) From: Gerry Springer Email: Up, Up and Away!!! To: A Friend Subject: Should I be worried?Gerry! Gerry! Gerry! Message:

Nah , these guys are way paranoid but none of them can give you an honest unbiased opinion . Too many crusaders. You said he seemed cool, so what is the problem? If you want an unbiased opinion with no censorship I'll answer you over at P+F or AG. Would you go to the John Birch Society for an unbiased opinion on the right to carry Arms?

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Date: Sun, May 14, 2000 at 09:26:31 (GMT) From: Angry Email: None To: A Friend Subject: Should I be worried?/Yes.... Message:

depending on the extent of your friend's involvement. Many members of the Maharaji cult have been around a long time and it is just part of their social existence. Many, however, have invested every ounce of their being into M's knowledge being there only hope for 'true happiness'. These are the ones who are the most damaged. What your friend is involved in is a cheap dime a dozen stereotypical CULT. Now that I'm out, I can't understand why I was ever in!!!

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Date: Sun, May 14, 2000 at 07:19:22 (GMT) From: Robyn Email: None To: A Friend Subject: Should I be worried? Message:

Dear Friend, I have been out for many years but from what I hear there is a new 'knowledge lite' that people can practice and it isn't so demanding. I agree with your suspision(sp) based on the whole thing focusing on a single person. Well put, that is it exactly. There are plenty of exes that still meditate and get a lot out of it but we have seen the wizard behind the curtain is just a faulted human being who likes being thought of as god as it keeps him living in luxury. Your friend may not be donating but others are you can be sure of that! I say keep your friend if you care for this person but keep your distance, emotional, physical and spiritual, away from m. Love, Robyn

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Date: Sun, May 14, 2000 at 12:04:23 (GMT) From: James Flynn Email: not given To: Robyn Subject: Should I be worried? Message:

If your friend maintains a low level of involvement and he is not trying to convert you, I say live and let live. I think it is a good sign that he maintains friendships outside of Maharaj Ji's world.

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Date: Sun, May 14, 2000 at 13:30:27 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: A friend Subject: Should I be worried? IMO, yes. Message:

I would be very wary of maintaining a friendship with this individual. My premie e-mail friend (not anymore) also seemed very 'normal' at first, and even said that he had little to do with m when I first asked about a premie friend link on his website. In fact, he said that most premies were total fuck-ups, but that he was different. Then it gradually became clear that he was unable to engage in any real discussion about anything, much like most premies posting here, and he sent m's website links. The denial involved in not seeing the full m picture seems to often extend into other areas of their psyche as well. I finally put 'maharaji' into a search engine and found this site; the picture became much more clear. It turns out that he is one of m's most rabid followers. To follow someone like this seems to give many premies a sense of smugness about the superiority of their choice over those others have made. I have found this 'in-crowdness' to be relatively true of all 'cults/religions.' Although this may not be the case with your friend, and I don't like overgeneralizations, in my experience it might be a good idea not to get your hopes up that this person will remain 'normal.' Personally, I was not only very disappointed with my 'premie friend's' lies, but absolutely shocked by what he has posted here. Spiritual path? God-realization? Enlightenment, bliss and love?? Not at all through m's 'knowledge.' I also encourage you to take the time to read some of the documentation of m's trip at this site, along with some of the exes Journeys. How anyone 'normal' can continue to follow this man is beyond my comprehension, but please, come to your own conclusions. I explore things for a while before I make mine. You've come to the right place to ask these questions, and I have great respect and appreciation for the people who have created and maintain this site. It has answered many of my questions and I think it may answer some of yours as well. All the best to you! Stonor

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Date: Sun, May 14, 2000 at 17:24:27 (GMT) From: zelda Email: None To: Worried Subject: Should I be worried? IMO, yes. Message:

First, when I read your post I immedieately thought it was a fake- seemed like a typical premie plant. but since there have been some good replies, by way of replying to the replys: Each repy has a very good point to make. In fact, as I read down the scroll- I agreed with most of them. But Stonor's reply remeinded me of my recent experience with premeies. It is unlikely that this 'freind' is using 'knowledge lite' if he is from the old days. If he is an old premie he needs to be handled with a snake stick. Premies are now mutated into a sympotmatic 'normal' species. By this I mean that they have developed vices which allow them to integrate into non premeis lives. Ie: smoking drinking carousing partying drugs and all of the accompanying trips involving seduction and sex. However, they have deleted any of the also normal personal ethics or moral values as well. Except for a lip service to a false 'loyalty' to friends and family. So when one encouters these premeis in the normal world, there is nothing cold and conservative about them. You get you normal 'used to be a yuppie but I am more secure now' confidence. And the fact that they really really respect their vices throws you off, because there is nothing of the holyier that thou that one would expect from a religious zealot. In fact, they hardly ever talk about the guru except in sly hints and never never speak of the cult trip. The only way to really know what this premie is truly made of is through an intimate relationship. One where their part of the relationship SHOULD mean understanding of the problems of the other person and being able to empathise. In my experpeince- they just cannot go this far if it means deep emotional processing with the other person. Their ability to engage in compasionate emotional processing is cauterized by their so called devotion being allocated to the guru. What is interesting is that they accept and enjoy another person giving them love and respect but the wierd thing is that THEY CANNOT GIVE IT IN RETURN IF IT INVOLVES ANY KIND OF EMOTIONAL SACRIFICE So the litmus test for a current premie to detect how normal they really are is to closely and silently observe their intimate relations with the opposite sex (or same sex if applicable (how very PC of me!). This may seem to be a covert and dishonest method for dealing with premies, but im my experience, the normal open and forthrightness of current premies very effectivly hides what they are truly made of. One can look it as a carbon copy of Makaka- slick on the outside but foul on the inside. This a reasonable rule of thumb. Ie: 'Premies are what they adulate.' Zelda

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Date: Sun, May 14, 2000 at 18:49:30 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: zelda Subject: wow, that was really interesting.... Message:

I do not know anyone I can do this test on could you elaborate with what you have seen in your life without damaging anyone's privacy? I think that is very interesting and I would like to read more. I get the feeling there is some truth value to what you are saying.

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 07:36:37 (GMT) From: zelda Email: None To: Susan Subject: wow, that was really interesting.... Message:

Hi Susan Yes I guess you would have to be in close enough to a premie to watch this happening. I am talking about men- and am not sure if the same thing would happen with women in the same way. It became clear to me because I was a friend of a non premie who was the object of a premie mans attention. Because she was oblivious to the inner workings of this guy- she basically fell hard for him. But I could see from the sidelines that his unavailablity was not due to the common factors, Ie dysfunction due to the normal causes-childhood, alchohol ect.- but it was due to the fact that his capacity to love was stunted in order to give it to the guru. The courtship lines were like something from a bad movie. Mostly it was super corny new age stuff 'oh yes soul mates' and fairly cosmic sex.- untill she pressed for definition of committment. Even though he had been sleeping with her - he still remained emotionally detatched and had the nerve to give her the old line of 'what do you want out of life' or 'lets focus on something really important' which meant going to a video. Which would not have been the end of the world except that he could not even approach the give and take zone. That was cleanly sidestepped by trying to redirect her to thinking about what was important- a thinly disguised manoever to ensure that he did not have to interact deeply on an emotional level. When she realized that something was wierd about it and pressed the issue she quickly became the obsessive female who had no direction in life. From my perspective I saw he was playing her out till she was forced to follow her instincts and write him off. He just gave canned satsang lines and acted smug. So I started to watch and keep tract of the premie men around. They attract a woman and the woman is usually in a daze of some kind. And it is really amusing to watch them start to wake up to the fact that something is wrong. It is actually hilarious in the ladies room sometimes. Sad too. Especially the single women with kids who have been in a bad relationship and then get hit on be these 'I shop at the Gap' guys hanging around the video nights. There are a few expremie women around who offer support from a female perspective and thank god there are a few expremie men who also set them straight. We have a nice little consultation circle. We can also supply the track record of the premie men in question. It is ok but the cuppachino bill is pretty high at times at the late cafe where we do the deprogramming. It is just a little anti cult anarchy we engage in. Kind of guerilla warfare for the sisterhood. There are a few premie women that attempt this but mostly they put out such a desparate vibe it is very obvious. Even the premie men avoid them. What is nice is when a premie guy falls for a expremie woman. If she is strong enough he leaves the fold. But that is another story and not fit for the screen. (;-) This all goes on on the fringes of peoples lives, but we seem to keep the pressure up on the premie community and the realtionship zone is a good hunting ground. It seems that love shows the co dependant trip faster than directly tackling the issue at times. Zelda

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 19:11:56 (GMT) From: JW Email: None To: zelda Subject: Excellent Insights...and a question Message:

I'm glad I never had a relationship with a premie. It sounds dreadful -- like dating a cross between a male version of a Stepford Wife and Peter Pan. But I have another question. How are gay relationships viewed in premieland? Do gay couples, for example, feel secure being 'out' in their relationships, including at 'introductory videos' and such around premies, at 'events,' etc.? When I was a premie they were pretty much invisible. I mean, at an introductory program a premie might talk about his wife and kids, but I never heard anyone talk about his or her gay lover. It wasn't considered something you could talk about; it wasn't a part of the image premies were trying to project to the outside world. There is a gay male couple in my neighborhood who I think are both premies that I see around occasionally, and I know of a lesbian couple on the East Coast, who are both premies as well. I also wonder about how the dynamics might be different or the same in these kinds of relationships.

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 15:20:54 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: zelda Subject: Emotional Black Holes Message:

Zelda: I have been in those relationships with premies that you have so accurately described. Basically, the sub rosa feeling is/was that relationships are a prostitution of Divine Love. Other lines trotted out to deflect any commitment or expressions of love are 'You can't have expectations,' or 'it's all an illusion,' among others. And yes, love and respect are eagerly absorbed, but reciprocal feelings certainly are not forthcoming. I could go on, but you have portrayed the scenario very well. Thanks

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 14:56:53 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: zelda Subject: Infinity Soup Message:

Hi zelda, your observations are very interesting, and have a ring of familiarity about them. Knowledge is often used, consciously or unconsciously, as a reason not to give yourself to some 'worldly activity', like a relationship, doing good deeds, getting involved in any project requiring commitment. The reasons for this used to be clear and up front once- 'Becoming entangled in worldy business distracts you from your spiritual business', and of course, sex has always been off the discussion menu in premie world. A lot of it goes back to the ashram days, when the real devotees were all avowed celebates. Because Maharaji never bothers to clean up the mess he leaves behind in premies heads, lots of old timers still beleive all this ancient hindu crap about members of the opposite sex being a major distrction on the spiritual path. There are lots of ingredients in the pot of 'non-commitment soup', and some of them have been swimming around in the bottom of the pan, being reheated for thirty years or more. Of course, it's a great card to play in the relationship game, because you're dodging your responsibility 'for heem', it's all ok. We had a premie on the forum a few months ago who was trying to justify lying. If you multiply everything by infinity, you can get the answer you want every time. Anth the Asparagus

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 13:48:37 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: zelda Subject: wow, that was really interesting.... Message:

Hello Zelda, Yes, those were BOTH interesting. I know you can't be describing the same person, but you could be; the parallels are uncanny. Although our relationship was never 'intimate,' the 'friendship' evolved in the same pattern. Also interesting how quickly it turned to 'Come for a romantic summer vacation with someone that you've never met.' At the time I thought it rather sexually aggressive for a 'groovy' new age person - and yes, I got 'Do you think we might be soulmates?' Anything's possible but . . . for me a red flag went up - and that's the only time a man has said exactly that word, 'soulmate,' to me. Have a good week, and thank you for your posts. Stonor

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 15:42:25 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Stonor Subject: Didn't someone once say... Message:

...when I hear the word, 'Soulmate' I reach for my pistol.' If they didn't, they should have done. Anth the 'I'll be back in five minutes mate.'

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Date: Sun, May 14, 2000 at 01:29:10 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Something is still wrong with the board Message:

It seems to work okay with frames, but the 'regular' way is all messed up. All sorts of posts are hidden from view. This could, on the other hand, be a good thing.

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Date: Sun, May 14, 2000 at 02:46:19 (GMT) From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Susan Subject: Something is still wrong with the board Message:

I'm not sure what you're talking about. I just did a side-by-side comparison of the index in both frames and non-frames. They both contained the same listing of posts.

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Date: Sun, May 14, 2000 at 02:58:54 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Brian Subject: you are right Message:

whatever was wrong is better. But really, before they were different.

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Date: Sun, May 14, 2000 at 12:40:32 (GMT) From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Susan Subject: Frames vs no-frames Message:

If you use the no-frames version, you have to wait for the entire index page to load before you can read a message. Otherwise you lose the bottom of the page and using the BACK button from a message will only reload the partial page. The frames version allows you to read a message as soon as it appears in the list while the index continues to be loaded, since the message gets displayed in a different frame.

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 18:00:26 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Brian Subject: Frames vs no-frames Message:

Does the frames version load ALL the threads and messages so I can view off-line?

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 22:29:09 (GMT) From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: cq Subject: Frames vs no-frames Message:

No. There's no way to read posts offline at this time.

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Date: Sat, May 13, 2000 at 21:58:46 (GMT) From: Alien Al Email: None To: Everyone Subject: a man talks of good over bad... Message:

of simple over complicated of light over darkness of joy over sadness that this is OUR nature but you with your ex or non ex 'thinking' with your hyper ego..what you 'think' you are.. YOU trash the good....ex or non ex... it's easier to dry up the ocean..than accept the good.. So trash ...trash away... the simple desire to be in peace.. or is that an alien concept?

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Date: Sun, May 14, 2000 at 18:41:56 (GMT) From: UFO Ursula Email: None To: Alien Al Subject: a woman talks of good over bad... Message:

Worshipping a man (or practicing 'gratitude'): good Loving everyone, family and friends: bad Believing your religion is the best: good Practicing tolerance: bad Blind obedience to EV dogma: good Questioning, thinking: bad Making happiness dependent on experience and belief: good Practicing happiness and sharing it with others: bad I'm a bad girl. I used to focus on Guru Maharaj Ji; now I focus on God, friends and family. Good luck, Alien Al, on your pursuit of Truth.

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Date: Sun, May 14, 2000 at 01:09:18 (GMT) From: another lousy poet Email: None To: Alien Al Subject: a man talks of good over bad... Message:

A man speaks of simple over complicated And asks that all photos of himself from the seventies be destroyed... A man speaks of light over darkness And allows Jagdeo to run free A man speaks of joy over saddness And allows his devotees to send him their their trust funds while they pledge poverty, chastity and obedience. Of course now he has evolved, he just takes the trust fund. It would be a lot easier to accept the good, if the former Guru Maharaj Ji would take responsibility for his life, his past, his present, his future and how his actions have affected thousands of other people. Good over bad? On balance I would say bad won.

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Date: Sun, May 14, 2000 at 04:43:29 (GMT) From: another Alien Al Email: None To: another lousy poet Subject: a man talks of good over bad... Message:

dear 'lousy' I share a house with a hyper ego bitch ----because of finances------ ---let me blame it on him---- ---@my church...a church person...is bonkers-- ok...--it's ez---i'll blame it on J.C.-- as far as the ash cans go.....hey...it didn't work.. ----2 many hyper ego bitch's---housemothers...ordering us non- ash cans around----no way---so I dint join the ashcan..-- let's blame him cause---hyper ego idiots never realized jack. it's not your fault, or his, or J.C's, cause a non-ex screwed me financially....go 2 court.... now 'lousy' ...does your r gue ment hold any water?

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 13:56:02 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: another Alien Al Subject: a man talks of good over bad... Message:

Based on the fact that your statement is completely opaque, this must be raina.

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Date: Sat, May 13, 2000 at 18:25:39 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Did Maharaji really do this to you, Ivete? Message:

Gratitude Gratitude is a feeling that is hard to describe. An endless feeling with many connections. It links different emotions into a channel that starts and ends with love. The expression of gratitude is so sincere and momentary. Ivete Belfort Mattos Sao Paolo, Brazil What kind of mind-numbing, Sysiphian torture has he thrown at these Happy Clappers that makes them obssess like this over a few simple words? And what words they are! They're like the little magnetic cut-out fridge magnet poetry kits. You know, like you can get a 'lawyer' one that's got all these cute legal terms. Or a 'dog lover' one or a 'golfer' set. Just a bunch of words you can jumble up any which way to make 'found' (read 'thoughtless') poetry.

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 13:09:11 (GMT) From: Larkin Email: fitzroy@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Jim Subject: 'Platitude' Message:

Platitute A commonplace remark delivered with gravitas by the spiritually superior or morally bankrupt in lieu of meaningful communication or emotional engagement. The cheapening of language, each banal turn of phrase A load of old trite. Fragmented, airy concepts turn in on themselves looking for ever-more-subtle layers of emptiness and vapidity. But a platitude to its mother is a fine-looking baby.

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Date: Sun, May 14, 2000 at 01:25:19 (GMT) From: Daneane Email: None To: Jim Subject: Bunch of words Message:

I dunno, Jim...it seems to me you can call anything just a 'bunch of words'. In the right hands those magnetic poetry kits can come to life. I think the words say what what you need them or want them to say. So it would seem the real question is why we need or want to hear something..for instance...from Big M. It's a shame so many perfectly wonderful words have been corrupted and emptied of all true meaning by his manipulations. It's a shame she can sit there and grapple with the word 'gratitude' and it's highest meanings, when M seems to be using it synonymously with 'servitude'. Those words M repeats ad nauseam...the meaning comes from what people need to believe; from themselves. I wish they would give themselves the credit instead. By the way, Jim, I was wondering...when you were a loyal devotee, did you have killer arguments to defend your position? I'm curious how you did defend it, and if anything anybody said made an impression on you.

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Date: Sun, May 14, 2000 at 02:34:09 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Daneane Subject: That's a great question Message:

By the way, Jim, I was wondering...when you were a loyal devotee, did you have killer arguments to defend your position? I'm curious how you did defend it, and if anything anybody said made an impression on you. As I recall, we were so rational back then. Clean and rational -- in a very strange kind of way. That is, unlike now, there was nothing in Maharaji's past or present that we knew of that embarrassed or confused us. No facts too incongruous to avoid, no rumours to ignore. Nor were there questions that made us skittish. We had answers for everything. Thus it was easy for us all to join Maharaji in his pre-Millenium campaign all centered on the pointed challenge, 'Who is Guru Maharaj Ji?' Maharaji tried to swagger front and centre onto the world stage, grab the microphone and dare everyone alive to try to answer that question. He was gloriously proud of who he pretended to be and every day we basked in the shared-glow of righteous truth. We had been open enough to approach him ourselves and were rewarded with the secret of life. Now it was your turn to step up and meet your maker. Come with a guieless heart, be ready to give up everything so he could give you everything; don't be afraid, you know in your heart of hearts that this is wahat you really want. The Lord is here. One big advantage Maharaji had then was that his grandiose promise of world peace and universal enlightenment hadn't stood the test of time. Neither had our own individual enlightenment. He unabashedly promised both, sooner rather than later, and faith back then was largely just a matter of suspending skepticism and waiting patiently. Thus Maharaji's regular stories of ant-size elephants and elephantine ants. You might doubt their existence but, hey, relax. Be open-minded and see, just see, what this particular magician could reveal. You've searched your whole life for a Superman comic to the point where you're starting to doubt they're anything but a myth. Well, believe it or not, Maharaji's got the goods. He can show you this comic both once and for all and obviate any needless thinking about the comic's likelihood. The proof's in the pudding and Maharaji's in the kitchen. As time went by this all crumpled. For one thing, Maharaji started accumulating skeleton after skeleton and, no matter how carefully he gaurded his closets, some fell out. For another, Maharaji lost direction and began meandering, sometimes even turning full circle but clearly going nowhere. Over the years all of his promises lost their meaning. Premies no longer really thought he was ever going to change the world and even the hopes of personal God-realization grew weak and were eventually, quietly abandoned. I wonder if there's a single premie alive who still really believes either myth, that Maharaji will establish 'peace on earth' or that he will liberate them personally from finite consciousness (whatever the hell any of that means). I doubt it. But back then we all thought it; it was basic dogma. What's most shameful, perhaps, and what might be most difficult for premies to explain away is the cowardly and dishonest way Maharaji has dealt with any of these matters. Back in the old days he presented as an icon of accountability. He micromanaged only to prove the point that his was a completely 'eyes open', i.e. conscious, mission. Since then he's slowly evolved into a sad, paranoid liar who fears his past and any honest mention of it. How disgusting that he disclaims any mantle of leadership on his own web site. Once he was the 'Saviour of Mankind'. Back then, Daneane, things were so, so different. For example, while we were intrigued by Maharaji's lineage, we only knew, in the roughest terms possible, that Shri Hans had 'taken over' from some guy named Sarupanand or something. But we weren't stifling our curiosity so much as trying to avoid thinking a single unnecessary thought when each moment might present that moment of true surrender. Bakc then we actually thought that any day could see any oen of us popping like corn and becoming 'realized'. The mahatmas had done it. The Holy Family had done it. Maharaji even made a few western saints (i.e. mahatmas) to show us it was possible. So why get caught up in a tangle of words and thoughts? The Word of God (i.e. breath) was inviting surrender moment-by-moment. It was unseemly for us to get too 'intellectual' about things. Better to simply meditate and let Maharaji show you what he wanted to as the Grace unfolded. Mind you, if you read the book Who is Guru Maharaj Ji? today you'll see that we really did get into all sorts of spiritual textual exigesis and concocted a host of pseudo-scientific theories to support this unintellectual 'Knowledge'. Well, what do you know? We were hypocrites, of course. What do you know? Another thing I should mention: although premies argued proudly and unflinchingly on Maharaji's behalf, smug in our belief that we had 'experienced' such 'truth' that our position was one of simple, factual knowledge without any belief or faith to prop it up (never mind the curious commandments to 'always have faith in God' and 'leave no room for doubt' in our minds) we could jsut as easily dismiss any critic as just a 'chattering mind' and think nothing of it. The thing is, though, those critics just didn't have the kind of simple, great arguments and facts to throw at the guru as exist now. Times were different, huh? The sixties left us somewhat embarrassed by Western rationality as if it was the ultimate square lover. We were learning 'new ways of thinking' and some of that, we premies thought, included bypassing thought altogether and merging with God just like our Guru had. We argued boldly with non-premies and, when things heated up, we argued with disdain. There were no great arguments I ever encountered that stopped me in my tracks. All the other gurus in the marketplace? That was a simple objection: none of them gave 'Knowledge'. Next? What about his ulcer? Easy: Maharaji, like Christ, or like Ramakrishna who, we learned, died of cancer, could take on karma for his followers. So we knew it was either that or, better still, the best defnse of all, the one I haven't mentioned yet because I saved it for last like a fine desert -- Lila! . When things started looking a bit confusing, it was just the Lord's way of reminding us not to think too much. Cool, huh? Anyways, hope that helps.

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 10:53:42 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: Jim Subject: Jim, that's a superb answer. (BEST OF) nt Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 19:22:45 (GMT) From: JW Email: None To: Jim Subject: Good job at describing what it was really like.... Message:

It really could be a lot of fun believing in Guru Maharaj Ji, without the slightest bit of doubt -- just being completely sure in the simple black and white hope in it all. It was all lies, but at least we didn't know it yet and we thought we were saving the world. It was heady, and fun -- for awhile.

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 14:33:45 (GMT) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Jim Subject: Jim, when was the turning point for you? (nt) Message:

Jim, When was the turning point for you? -- Dogg

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 07:57:16 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Jim Subject: Great post Jim (nt) Message:

Openup-a-yoreheart

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 15:46:08 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Daneane and Jim Subject: Seconded. And thanks Daneane 4 a good question(nt) Message:

Seconded. And thanks Daneane 4 a good question(nt)

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Date: Sun, May 14, 2000 at 23:27:23 (GMT) From: hamzen Email: None To: Jim Subject: And no lila without the acid before (nt) Message:

a

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Date: Sun, May 14, 2000 at 14:32:39 (GMT) From: Daneane Email: None To: Jim Subject: You 60's babes Message:

Thanks for answering my question Jim. Reads like something you didn't think out just to answer my question. Probably something you asked yourself many times. Do you think NASA is still tracking that amazing energy M exudes? Or do you think they might have documented its gradual decline? I certainly never sensed it or felt it. Maybe if he was still glowing I would have asked for knowledge. It seems to me his paranoia thang is killing him. If he supposedly wants new blood, why the limited tour for only certified PWK? How can new-comers feel the glow if they can't even know where he will be, let alone attend? How can he lay on the pressure for propagation then do nothing but stifle it in his actions? Watching the demonstation of the big bad secret knowledge techniques in the LOTU video....I don't see how people don't bust out laughing during their session. But I imagine he could say, 'okay now, stand on one foot and place your hands on your hips with your palms out and smack your gum', and all would comply. I wonder how new membership would do if that LOTU video was shown at Introductory events? It couldn't get much worse, could it?

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Date: Sun, May 14, 2000 at 03:00:55 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Jim Subject: Bingo, Jim, You Hit The Nail On The Head Message:

I remember selling 'And It Is Divine' mags on the streets during my lunch hour and getting into verbal duels with Jesus Freaks which, in retrospect, I still consider awesome, mostly because I can't believe what came out of my mouth. It was like the dueling banjo scene in 'Deliverance,' only now I realize I was the redneck kid on the porch :-))). I could play a mean verbal banjo, but otherwise I was screwed. When I was in the process of exiting el cult-o-rama, I read a book called 'Snapping,' by Flo Conway and Jim Seligman, in which they said that being in a cult is like your brain has an information disease. If your eyeballs deep in a cult, any attempts to talk someone out of it only pushes them deeper, because you're proving to them how deluded you are and how clear they are. Their theory was that the way someone got out was by 'snapping,' i.e., you suddenly realize what you're doing and snap out of it. I think there are a multitude of ways to get yourself out of a cult, but I, myself, did 'snap.' As I was walking to work (because I didn't have enough money for bus fare), I had the distinct thought, 'This isn't working.' That thought essentially broke the seal on what was a vacuum-packed belief system, and while it took a few years of therapy (and then some_ to really see what I had done, I was out. It took me a very long time to get over the 'lila' concept, because what if I were really out 'getting a glass of water' (you must remember that satsang), and I made a big mistake. That lingered for quite a while, but M never had the hold over me that he did in my heydey of cultdom. Goes to show you that there's a big difference between sincerity and clarity, eh?

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 19:18:28 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Monmot Subject: Yes, Monmot.. the 'Snap'... Message:

Monmot, I had the snapping experience just as you describe, only my thought was 'I'm leaving.' I had actually been in the process of leaving for quite some time, even years, but the thought had never actually crossed my mind, fully developed and finished. As soon as the thought was there, it was all over! I think some of the premies who post here are approaching the snap, and it will happen when it happens. We shouldn't push them too much, (like I tend to do), because it has to be their own thought process, not somebody else's. Your pen-name is exactly appropriate for this thread. There was always the idea that monmots could come back if they weren't too far gone. And I do recall a premie getting up at a program around 1978 and singing a song called 'I feel like a premie again.' But after the snap, there's no returning.

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Date: Sun, May 14, 2000 at 00:38:28 (GMT) From: Oliver Email: None To: Jim Subject: Did Maharaji really do this to you, Ivete? Message:

There's a rumour going the rounds that these 'poems' are not written by premies but by Maharaji himself. They do have his style don't you think? Totally without style and full of bullshit.

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Date: Sun, May 14, 2000 at 08:31:25 (GMT) From: Yeah!! Email: None To: Oliver Subject: Is retarded!!! NT Message:

NT

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Date: Sat, May 13, 2000 at 21:27:59 (GMT) From: raina Email: None To: Jim Subject: I was really hoping to get your opinion.... Message:

about my post ('...sarcastic right') in your 'hamsterologist' thread.... even to be made fun of..... I thought that the idea of something like that happening to someone-just before meeting Maharji was pretty interesting....(of course not as interesting as debating Chomsky theory!) I suppose if you told me you actually wrote some of Chevy Chase's most famous material, I might think you were nuts...if I weren't the poster child for 'strip mining' myself.....

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Date: Sat, May 13, 2000 at 14:51:36 (GMT) From: Mahatma Loafanand Butter Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Trainings (from thread below).... Message:

It is very clear to me that there is a lack of synchronisation among the ex-premie community. Some are fighting demons which Maharaji claims to have exorcised back in the 80s - others seem blissfully unaware (in their righteous anger) as to what Maharajis message is these days. To be this pissed off is a privelege NOT a right. We need to pull together if we are going to grow. We need to be synchronised and in step with that feeling,that urge, that push, which will take us beyond in-fighting and point scoring... to an incredible, limitless place. This is the garden of opportunity... and what are we growing ? Weeds and dirt. In order to get more in tune with this opportunity, to fully realise this potential, I suggest that we each attend a Knowledge review, and video and sattelite events regularly. Strong medicine, for some... but it will soon weed out the weak amongst us. We need to be tested. Suffering will make us strong. To really become 'loathers' again. But you must give your 'loathing' something to feed on - or it will just eat you up. Because just to 'loathe' is not enough. We need to do something. What better place to do irrepairable damage, but on the inside. Physically, mentally, emotionally, criminally.... We need to go inside, not just any old how, but Undercover. It is only within Elan Vital that we will find our Mission. By doing lots and lots of service with our hard won (and carefully concealed) bile, resentment, and lack of synchronisation, we could each of play our part in bringing the whole thing to a grinding halt. Some brave souls - Pauline Premie, Jim, AJW and other volunteers could forge ahead out of base camp and claw their way to the dizzy organisational heights of EV.... and having got there erect new and more terrible Latvian gods. Its a whole new world... just waiting for US. Your loving brother Mahatma LoafanandButter Millennium Fever Satsang On the Astroturf Harringay Stadium 2000

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Date: Sun, May 14, 2000 at 04:16:08 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Mahatma Loafanand Butter Subject: Trainings (from thread below).... Message:

Whew! Finally someone with some answers!! Thank you! Thank you!! (;

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Date: Sat, May 13, 2000 at 17:14:00 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: All Subject: I didn't write that..:) nt Message:

nt

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Date: Sat, May 13, 2000 at 14:22:35 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Everyone Subject: What is the purpose of your life? Message:

Okay okay We all know that what it's not-- following some two-bit rugu with a bad haircut and nice italian suits. But what *is* the purpose of your life? Is there no purpose (I've heard that here) and you just have to enjoy life where you can, pleasure being the purpose? Or do we make meaning out of our existence through trying to work towards some greater cause? Or is there a God who created all of this to whom we are indebted and who has some kind of a plan for us as a human race and for each of us as individuals (it's a stretch to beleive, eh)? I feel a bit guilty lately. I feel so much better now that my health problems are straightened out and I am exercising and actually making some decent money. So I'm thinking 'man, is this what it's all about? just feeling GOOD all the time????' I'm not used to feeling good. I felt bad for so long. The Unitarian Universalist guilt is setting in (distant cousin of Jewish guilt). I should be doing MORE to help people in need... I *am* going to the million mom march tomorrow in D.C. ANyone else going? D.C. ex-es? Susan, if you read this I want to send you a mother's day email that will make you cry (with recognition).I will try to post it here but can you send me your email address again (HelenRDC@aol.com) HAPPY MOTHER'S DAY to all the fine moms of the forum, and to all who nurture and believe in children.

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 12:46:13 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Helen Subject: er ... is it to find out life's purpose? (nt) Message:

er ... is it to find out life's purpose? (nt)

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Date: Sat, May 13, 2000 at 21:36:28 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Helen Subject: Happy Mother's day to you too!! nt Message:

nt No comment... shhhh

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Date: Sat, May 13, 2000 at 17:40:31 (GMT) From: VP Email: None To: Helen Subject: What is the purpose of your life? Message:

Helen, That is a good question and if you or anyone else here happens to figure it all out, would you let me know the answer? Thanks, I would be so grateful. Snicker. Well, feeling good is a good thing, for sure, but you know I can be a bit of a hedonist at times. Hey, I didn't know there was such a thing as Unitarian Universalist guilt. Jewish guilt, yes, but I thought the puritanical protestants (from whom I am descended) had the guilt market cornered! Those hip, progressive churches have it to, eh? How disappointing. Doing things for others is so rewarding, but just remember that no good deed goes unpunished. Just ask Katie, if you don't believe me, snicker snicker. So glad you are feeling GOOD for a change. That's awesome and no one deserves it more than you, sister Helen. Say hello to that Minnesota housewife when you get the chance. VP

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Date: Sun, May 14, 2000 at 04:19:17 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: VP Subject: What is the purpose of your life? Message:

Yes the hip religions have guilt too--oh yes, in spades! The guilt of knowing that whatever pleasure you may be feeling at this very moment, some people are still enslaved or hungry. It's very intense. All religions have guilt. So go smoke a cigar and have some port and think again before becoming a Loonitarian!!!!

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Date: Sat, May 13, 2000 at 17:11:25 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Helen Subject: Post below and SB... Message:

Hey,Helen, I'm excited - could you go to your library and take out the video... 'Life after Life' by Dr. Raymond Moody,MD --60 min. Then we can talk amoungst ourselves. SB, too. Will be neat to chat after. Elaine

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Date: Sat, May 13, 2000 at 21:34:12 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Elaine Subject: Sorry Elaine, life is not to be.... Message:

thought that way, in my opinion. Too abstract. Enjoy it! Or were you joking? Hi Helen!

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Date: Sat, May 13, 2000 at 15:12:12 (GMT) From: Powerman Email: None To: Helen Subject: What is the purpose of your life? Message:

If there's a purpose to life it has to be 'built in'. It can't be something you decide because a decision is smaller than you, whereas a purpose is bigger. Not only would a purpose be built in, it would just slip on and fit like a glove... a purpose to life would just come naturally. Consequently, we wouldn't need to 'know' what the purpose of life is because we would be built to fulfill it. Maybe we'd know it and maybe we wouldn't, but it wouldn't matter because we'd just do it. It also wouldn't be any big deal; that's the nature of a 'purpose'. Purposes are ordinary... they're everywhere and just about everything has one. Actually, they're boring, purposes are boring. Maybe the question should be 'What is the 'unpurpose' of life'?

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Date: Sat, May 13, 2000 at 20:47:36 (GMT) From: raina Email: None To: Powerman Subject: Why is the sky not red? nt Message:

ghjkl

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Date: Sat, May 13, 2000 at 16:47:50 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Powerman Subject: What is the purpose of your life? Message:

Well once I became a parent there was a 'built in' purpose--a screaming baby who needed me. But do you think there are certain laws inherent in the universe with which we are meant to live in accord--Laws that give us a purpose, such as the 10 COmmandments?

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Date: Sat, May 13, 2000 at 21:44:33 (GMT) From: raina Email: None To: Helen Subject: What is the purpose of your life? Message:

Have a great time on your trip Helen, even though the 'borrowed' parody of 'Million Moms March' makes me grumble...... re: your ? about 'laws' etc.... I once had a Proffessor who put it really welll...she said 'The only two most sacred and important things human beings have are 1) Babies and 2) Words. Imagine if the translation of one of the actual 10 commandments got just one letter wrong! Or easier to speculate, one word.......... She was trying to point out how vital INDIVIDUAL consciousness is....to catch that one letter out of place....you know....otherwise a law might hold true for 1000 years, snowballing and unstoppable! Thou shalt not take the Lord thy God in sane. Wo! If I had to put words to a feeling of purpose? It would be putting my little life's energy into skimming the gunk that falls into the pool? Knowing nothing more than clear is good. Gunk is bad. But life without gunk can also seem like day without sunshine? please ignore me! i have no idea what i have just said!

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Date: Sat, May 13, 2000 at 20:56:09 (GMT) From: Runamok Email: None To: Helen Subject: Why the one-size fits all approach? Message:

Isn't it really about an individual purpose where you know you can do something worth doing? It may not be as squeaky clean an answer, but it will supercede questions of universal laws or selfish vs. selfless. Not killing people, or say, not being too overindulgent are commonsensical. Doing something that means something to you takes more thought, discipline and time to develop. We tried being selfless through the cult, but in fact fed a little boy's bank account. It's because we didn't take our own individual instincts about purpose seriously enough. Wasting our talents will automatically negate purpose. Religious rhetoric agrees ('God-given talents'). Purpose is a loaded to word to all of us because of that experience.

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Date: Sun, May 14, 2000 at 04:16:52 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Runamok Subject: Why the one-size fits all approach? Message:

Great post Run. Thanks.

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Date: Sun, May 14, 2000 at 01:36:41 (GMT) From: Oliver Email: None To: Runamok Subject: Because there is one size that fits all. Message:

I almost ignored this thread, and have only read a couple of messages because it appeared a bit of a red herring that could not go anywhere much as there are as many possible replies as there are respondants. Surely the one most important purpose of life is simply the survival of the species. To leave our genes in the collective pool when we die. Anything else we do is just filling in time so far as any 'Master Plan' is concerned. Yes it is honourable and right to ensure we do it all in a positive and loving way with an emphasis on 'do unto others etc.,' but apart from that I cannot see much to lose sleep about.

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Date: Sun, May 14, 2000 at 20:11:17 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Oliver Subject: Because there is one size that fits all. Message:

Yes, you're right, Oliver. The only purpose of life is its own perpetuation. Beside that, I guess you can give yourself whatever purpose you want but, really, on that level, what a mundane question. 'My purpose is to be a good friend to the downtrodden' or 'My purpose is to help make the world a better place'...... yech!

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 17:06:48 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Jim Subject: Nausea Message:

Oliver wrote: I almost ignored this thread, and have only read a couple of messages because it appeared a bit of a red herring that could not go anywhere much as there are as many possible replies as there are respondants. Surely the one most important purpose of life is simply the survival of the species. To leave our genes in the collective pool when we die. Anything else we do is just filling in time so far as any 'Master Plan' is concerned. Yes it is honourable and right to ensure we do it all in a positive and loving way with an emphasis on 'do unto others etc.,' but apart from that I cannot see much to lose sleep about. Jim responded: Yes, you're right, Oliver. The only purpose of life is its own perpetuation. Beside that, I guess you can give yourself whatever purpose you want but, really, on that level, what a mundane question. 'My purpose is to be a good friend to the downtrodden' or 'My purpose is to help make the world a better place'...... yech! G responds: Spoken like fanatical existentialists. Why don't you go read 'Nausea' by Sartre, throw up, and feel proud of yourselves. But keep it to yourselves, because it stinks.

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 18:49:05 (GMT) From: Powerman Email: None To: G Subject: I think you're wrong, G Message:

Nobody knows the purpose of life. People come up with ideas that might be the purpose of life because they don't actually know. People think they know the purpose of life but if there was a purpose it would become obvious at some point. Other than continuing the species and doing all the things that ensure that (including love, charity, hope, etc.) it isn't really clear.

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 01:17:56 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Powerman Subject: 'continuing the species' as 'the' purpose of life Message:

First you say that nobody knows 'the' purpose of life, then you imply that it is a fact that 'continuing the species' is 'the' purpose of life. How about some more honesty? Honesty, one of those virtues you think you've mastered and don't have to think about anymore. It sounds like you think you've got it all figured out and you can go to sleep now, thus the 'big yawns'. Have a nice sleep, you won't learn much. You say '...if there was a purpose it would become obvious at some point.' That's just more of the 'if I don't see it, it's not there' mentality that has no logical basis. The description of love, charity, hope, etc. as simply being incidental things that help ensure the continuance of the species is simple-minded and degrading; and it's strange how you write 'the species' instead of 'our species'.

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 02:08:46 (GMT) From: Powerman Email: None To: G Subject: 'continuing the species' as 'the' purpose of life Message:

Well, G, it really isn't dishonest. The thing is that survival is the only obvious thing that all living things must do, but in terms of being a purpose it's insane. Survival really isn't a purpose because the purpose of survival has to be something more. However it's the closest thing that could be argued as a 'purpose'. It's obvious you have an opinion about this but you're not really saying what it is. I haven't followed your posts so I don't know where you stand about anything. Are you a premie? Do you believe in God? What's up? What's your point? I know you disagree with me but I don't know what you're proposing is true about this. ....and I'm wondering why you're holding back. And while you're at it, ditch the nasty tone.

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 23:10:10 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Powerman Subject: the Creator Message:

Ditch the nasty tone? You've never had a nasty tone in any of your posts? I believe in a Creator but I do not view the Creator as a person. Some of the reasons that I believe are: . evidence that our universe had a beginning . the laws of physics appear extremely fine-tuned so that life could emerge (No, I don't buy the other universes fantasy) . the fact that there are any laws of physics; that all electrons are basically electrons . the lack of a plausible materialistic account for the origin of life . the lack of sufficiently detailed explanations of how various organs and biochemical processes could have evolved by the combination of so-called 'random' mutations and natural selection (Yes, I understand the general theory) . the subjective experience of my own awareness and sensory experiences (e.g. the timbre of a violin) I have read quite a bit of atheistic (often materialistic) literature and I have not encountered any convincing arguments for materialism or hard-core atheism.

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 00:57:08 (GMT) From: Powerman Email: None To: G Subject: the Creator Message:

Those are good points, G. But... if there's a Creator, it had to have always existed. How could that be? How come the Creator didn't have to be 'created'? If the universe had a beginning, where was the Creator living before? How come the Creator doesn't communicate in as fool-proof a way as a mother does to a child? How come the Creator made it so no one would doubt the existence of the sun but many people doubt the existence of God? How come most of the other people who do believe in God are talking out of their assholes? And finally, why does the Creator let my sweet cat hunt and stalk an innocent jack-rabbit and kill it slowly and then bring it to my room and eat everything but it's feet. Oh, one last thing... how do you know all this shit? And if you don't really know it, are you just filling in alot of blanks to believe it? And why do that? Why not just suspend belief until you truly know it?

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 02:03:56 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Powerman Subject: the Creator Message:

That is assuming that the Creator exists within time. The idea is that our time had a beginning, there was no 'before', so whatever accounts for our universe cannot exist solely within our time and not within time as we know it. As to what accounts for the Creator, that is beyond my comprehension. Maybe the Creator accounts for the Creator. It simply seems that there is something more than our physical universe. Matter does not seem like a good candidate for a first cause. Also, maybe there is no first cause as we conceive of it. We tend to think of a finite linear regress within time, but maybe finiteness and/or linearity do not hold. I'm using the word 'Creator' as a label, there are certainly problems with the word 'create', since we think in terms of objects being created/assembled in time. The argument from evil and suffering assumes the the Creator is a goody-goody in the way we would like 'Him' to be. I am not ascribing the attributes of goody-goodyness or 'all-powerfulness'. I'm not referring to the God of the Bible. Your other questions also relate to attributes that people ascribe to the Creator. They are good questions and I don't know the answers. Who knows, maybe the Creator is a bit looney. He would have to be if He made us in His image, just look at us. Just kidding. I don't know, maybe something weird created our universe and there is a Truth beyond it. Maybe more than one force created our universe. I can't figure it out. It just seems like there's more going on than meets the eye. Also, I see no reason to ascribe attributes like 'blind', 'dead', 'unconscious', 'devoid of intelligence', or anything like that to whatever accounts for our universe. Why do that? Shouldn't there be some scepticism about these assumptions? What about suspending these beliefs? Rather than ask me how I know all this 'shit', and it isn't 'shit' and I didn't just make it up, show me where I'm wrong. I don't suspend belief because I think the evidence is there.

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 04:29:57 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: Powerman Subject: 'continuing the species' as 'the' purpose of life Message:

'Continuing the species' to what end, Powerman? And to what purpose (as we continue to destroy ourselves and our planet)? 'There are two ways to slide easily through life: Namely, to believe everything, or to doubt everything; both ways save us from thinking.' - Alfred Korzybski

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 03:35:45 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Powerman Subject: G, don't get sucked in by Powerman Message:

G--don't fall for Powerman's tricks. he's a big phoney. Powerman, You swagger around with this ridiculous name 'Powerman' demanding that I do this and do that, and honestly, you seem as if *YOU* are the one holding something back. You seem unreal, like you are playing a role, as if you are trying to be Jim. Only Jim can be Jim, so on you it just seems disingenuous. You've demanded that I define my personal philosophy, and when I tried, you told me I was trite. Jesus already! It's like being pecked to death by ducks by Jim, but with you it's even worse, because you are scary.You are frightening and creepy. I can't believe I actually got sucked in by you, and was steppin' and fetchin' for you. Get a life.

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 23:29:09 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Helen Subject: Don't worry Message:

Don't worry, Helen, I can see through this nonsense. Yes, 'Powerman', what's this name about? Do you think it's intimidating? Grow up, little boy.

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 00:51:12 (GMT) From: Powerman Email: None To: G Subject: Don't worry Message:

No, G, I don't think the name is intimidating at all. There was mostly humor and irony in deciding to use it. Maybe it's like a loud Hawaiian shirt that tourists where. Ya gotta have a laugh at those things. So go ahead and take the piss out of me. You have my permission. That's why I'm wearing it.

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 02:12:40 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Powerman Subject: Ok, I'll go with that, I was just checking (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 04:49:44 (GMT) From: Powerman Email: None To: Helen Subject: Helen Message:

Helen, That was uncalled for; I haven't demanded anything from you. If you're not stable enough to be challenged when you post here, maybe you shouldn't. And I didn't 'suck you in'. There was nothing manipulative in what I said--it was what I meant and direct as I could be. If you haven't figured it out by now, the name Powerman is a joke, sort of like calling you Big Old Helen. As far as comparing me to Jim, you're way off. Jim and I agree about very little and our approach in posting is very different. Obviously, you've read few of my posts, especially those between Jim and I. The very little that Jim and I agree on was evident in this thread so I can see how you made that mistake. It's also apparent you have some issues with negative feelings like anger and aren't entirely comfortable with them. Okay, and well enough, but I'd rather not have you dumping on me when you should be dealing with your own issues. I've been open in discussing the subject you've posted but you get defensive to any response but a comfy tupperware club. I'm sorry but I can't do that. And I don't have to here, either. But I would like to point out that 'dissing me to G is childish behavior, and saying I'm phoney without explaining any details about how I've misrepresented myself is unfair. And... where in the world were you 'step and fetchin'' for me. Even I have more respect for you than to think that. Helen, what's got into you? Are you mad because you feel insulted? It wasn't my intention to insult you but to talk about the subject. You got me all wrong. I'm still open to discussing it.

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 19:05:39 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Powerman Subject: Powerman Message:

Perhaps such perverse conversations are usual for you, but I am not used to them. You did insult me several times which put me on the defensive. You roundly pooh-poohed the very notion of a personal philosophy (and I admit the title of the thread was a bit lame to begin with, but I swear I was only trying to make conversation, not provide the definitive answer to existence as we know it). What bothers me most is your insistence that I provide some sort of original contribution to the discussion when you yourself offered nothing except blase criticism and your notion that cats have it made. If it was not your intention to play games with me, all I can say is that it felt that way to me. Paranoid? I guess I was, I'll be sure to bring it up with my therapist at the next round of electro-shock therapy. I'm sorry that I reacted so strongly to your conversational 'style' *and* that I played along.

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 20:16:15 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Powerman Subject: I think you're wrong, G Message:

Funny how you give certain virtues perfunctory treatment in parenthesis. To some folks (love, charity, hope) are worthwhile goals indeed. Just because we can't know the definitive answer to life's purpose doesn't mean there isn't value in trying to define a personal philosophy.

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 22:02:11 (GMT) From: Powerman Email: None To: Helen Subject: I think you're wrong, G Message:

I think the reason I'm pooh-poohing the defining of a personal philosophy is that it becomes cliche almost before you finish. Almost everyone puts love, charity, honesty, etc., at the top of the list; it's only natural. You take offense at me and Jim snoring through it but it isn't because we don't value those things. The reason we're snoring is because we do value those things. Think about it. Isn't there something masturbatory about defining a personal philosophy after the age of 25?

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 22:28:46 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Powerman Subject: you are just too hip to be bothered Message:

Masturbatory?? You think it's narcissistic navel gazing? I think it is human development. Think of all the people who have a power surge in middle age because they have had some kind of defining crisis like cancer. I think you are too cynical. If everything is so blase and obvious to you and Jim (the collective 'us' now?), how do you get up in the morning? Sheesh!

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 22:46:24 (GMT) From: Powerman Email: None To: Helen Subject: you are just too hip to be bothered Message:

What in God's name is a 'power surge'? Is this something I haven't heard about? I thought I'd heard it all. So you get this from cancer? And people were saying such bad things. Okay, listen, I'm willing to consider it's human development but in order for me to believe it there has to be some original thought. It can't just be regurgitation of the same basic top ten human values. Without a doubt, being on death's doorstep will freshen things up a bit, and to be honest, getting up in the morning isn't always easy. But I can't tell myself stories just so it's easier to get up in the morning. Do you really think you're a nicer person than me and that if I reworked my personal philosophy I'd be nicer and happier?

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 23:42:59 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Powerman Subject: you just 'big yawned' me--you ARE one with Jim Message:

Original thought? Oh you want me to dazzle you with brilliance? Why is it so hard a concept to grasp that a person re-thinks his or her philosophy or life when faced with an extreme challenge such as cancer, the death of one's parents, etc. Is it a requirement to write a PhD dissertation every time a person post's in order that you and Jim might be suitably enlightened? WHo said anything about your being nicer or happier if you re-worked your personal philosophy? Get a grip. jeez, time to get off this machine and write my article on the Million Mom March. At least that way I will feel like my words are going somewhere.

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 00:04:33 (GMT) From: Powerman Email: None To: Helen Subject: you just 'big yawned' me--you ARE one with Jim Message:

No, Helen, I'm agreeing with you that a disease can jolt you into rearranging your priorities, so that's not an issue. A dissertation? No, but it isn't unfair to ask for a certain amount of lucidity. You implied that there was value in defining a personal philosphy and now you're implying it wouldn't make one happier or nicer, so what gives? Just wanking the old noodle or what?

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 02:17:20 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Powerman Subject: wank your own noodle Message:

'Happier' or 'nicer' seem like boring words for such an intellectual as yourself. There is value in defining a personal philosophy so that your pea brain will know what to make of its experiences, whether to make coffee each day, and drink it, or to go downtown and look for a job. Whether to sit in the beauty parlor getting a facial or leaflet the mall for gun control. It means that you hopefully will leave this place a better place rather than add to the cesspool that it is. It means that your children will remember you as someone who inspired them instead of someone who made them feel like slitting their wrists. Is this all too cliche for you dear? Is it original and lucid enough? maybe you're an existentialist or idealist or essentialist or a rationalist or a social reconsructivist--it doesn't matter. But it is important to know WHAT you believe--don't you think? Whether it makes you nicer or happier, how the hell should I know. You don't want to be happy? You like being depressed? I personally enjoy being happy, don't you? Are you too intellectual for that, for being happy? I finished my article and now I am going to bed.

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 04:59:54 (GMT) From: Powerman Email: None To: Helen Subject: wank your own noodle Message:

That's good, Helen, very good. Yes, I can live with that. A little passion mixed in makes all the difference. More rock and soul than philosophy; just the way I like it. You can dish me out some of that anytime.

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 23:20:41 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Powerman Subject: What's this nasty tone? Message:

If that's not a nasty tone, I don't know what is. What hypocrisy. Why are you hiding behind sarcasm, don't you have anything to say?

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Date: Sun, May 14, 2000 at 19:58:05 (GMT) From: Runamok Email: None To: Oliver Subject: Because there is one size that fits all. Message:

Yeah, but you don't have to think about biological imperatives. You do have to think about what you want to do with your life.

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 05:20:44 (GMT) From: Oliver Email: None To: Runamok Subject: Because there is one size that fits all. Message:

Yes, of course your right. I've noticed you've wisely stayed out of the shit fight that has evolved from my original post. Wise man. It's just another example of threads going mad as we have discussed in the past, (IMO). Lots and lots of messages to open without much reward. Oliver:)

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Date: Sat, May 13, 2000 at 18:41:04 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Helen Subject: What is the purpose of your life?/Laws... Message:

Yes,10 Commandments are a really good start. Laws? Let's see,off the top...To know, love and serve God. To treat each other as ourselves. To love...unconditionally To never judge Are some of these in the Commandments,oh well? To learn and grow closer to the truth - and to help others do so... I like those. To accept love at all times. To be humble To simply do God's Will Thank you for the question,Helen. :) Elaine

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Date: Sun, May 14, 2000 at 22:25:02 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Elaine Subject: Is this Sunday School? Message:

What's the next question in the series? 'How can you become a better person?'? 'How can we share God's love?'? How mamby pamby...

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Date: Sun, May 14, 2000 at 22:27:32 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Jim Subject: Is this Sunday School? Message:

Thank you, Jim for that edifying answer!! Actually I learned a few things in SUnday school that you could benefit from!

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Date: Sun, May 14, 2000 at 22:49:35 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Helen Subject: Okay, hit me -- Helen's Sunday School class Message:

Somehow, I can't say I didn't know it would come down to this.

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Date: Sun, May 14, 2000 at 23:02:04 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Jim Subject: Okay, hit me -- Helen's Sunday School class Message:

The best thing that I learned in Unitarian sunday school, is a song that goes: 'I'm proud to be me but I also see, you're just as proud to be you.' Respect for other people is the foundation of my faith. I think you find it namby pamby because you're bored by anything 'trite' or Obvious. Oh yes, we've all seen Jim's 'big yawn' when your bored by someone's post that isn't enough of an intellectual giant for you. But sometimes I think you need to go back to kindergarten, you missed a few steps. You think you learned them but you didn't. I should know! I taught preschool for 7 years dear. you skipped a stage somewhere. You really worry me.

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 20:03:50 (GMT) From: Doney Email: None To: Helen Subject: Helen, have compassion...... Message:

If you were so compulsive that you can't stay away from this forum for more than 10 minutes at a time, and if compelled to comment on absolutely everything, wouldn't you be sarcastic and kind of mean too? Jim has a disease, Helen. And it ain't pretty.

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 20:10:32 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Doney Subject: Helen, have compassion...... Message:

HA HA--thanks. There is a compulsive quality to the forum, isn't there? Do we all have addictive personalities or what? Compulsive about darshan satsang etc and now the forum. Time to find a new hobby, maybe I will take up poodle manicuring. (;

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Date: Sun, May 14, 2000 at 23:39:31 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Helen Subject: YOU TAUGHT PRE-SCHOOL??! HOLY COW! Message:

Really, Helen, I had no idea. I thought you were just winging it. Sorry.

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Date: Sun, May 14, 2000 at 23:09:44 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Jim Subject: God, I am getting into it with Jim... Message:

on Mother's Day Jim, forget I even responded to your post. it is I who have to go back to school, the class called 'Dealing with Jim 101' Not worth my time and attention. Glad I remembered...

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 05:40:27 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Helen Subject: it's easy Helen it goes like this.. Message:

fuck you heller

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 19:58:39 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Selene Subject: it's easy Helen it goes like this.. Message:

How 'bout,'Go to time out!!!' (;

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 21:37:51 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Helen Subject: time out's DID work on my toddlers you got a point Message:

my youngest used to destroy his entire room during time outs until he figures out a trashed room wasn't so great :) Yesterday Ryan - he's learning new words every day - poured potting soil all over the patio and said 'mess mess mess' gotta love it.

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 22:24:50 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Selene Subject: time out's DID work on my toddlers you got a point Message:

It must be great to have a toddler in your life...one that you can hand back at the end of the day too. A friend was visiting with her toddler. The friend told her toddler to be gentle with our dog, so she (the 3 year old) marches over to the dog, wags her finger and says 'doggy be nice!!'

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 00:25:49 (GMT) From: Powerman Email: None To: Helen Subject: What's this? Message:

Helen, did you turn caustic and sour on Jim? What happened to the Sunday school wisdom?

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 01:20:59 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Powerman Subject: What's this? Message:

Powerman, What are you trying to prove? I never set myself up to be a saint. Fortunately Unitarian Sunday school doesn't teach 'Christian forgiveness' (turning the other cheek) or some such nonsense. I'm not a masochist, therefore I have learned not to tangle with people who enjoy hurting people.

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 04:15:13 (GMT) From: Powerman Email: None To: Helen Subject: What's this? Message:

Well, Helen, you are just a little bit saintly. Maybe it isn't intentional. But honestly, what's the deal with Sunday school? I had Saturday Hebrew School and I still haven't got the kinks out. You did take just a tad of moral high ground with Jim. Do you really think he enjoys hurting people? That's ludicrous. Certainly he's not for the thin-skinned but you're tough enough for the job. Your point is that we have some higher purpose? Okay... what is it and how do you know? That's fair, right? Silly boys need something they can get their teeth into.

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 20:07:40 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Powerman Subject: What's this? Message:

going back and back and back, people were giving their opinions on this thread and Jim belittled them, saying 'is this SUnday school?' to which I gave a reply. And Yes I am tough skinned enough for whatever Jim wants to dish out. I don't know if we have a 'higher purpose' but a life without some kind of purpose (besides reproducing or otherwise surviving) doesn't sound like much to me. Maybe what I was asking was for people to chime in about their personal philosopies. After all, M's one size fits all so-called 'philosophy' wasn't very satisfying. The fact that the replies weren't sufficiently edifying for Jim's taste caused him to make sarcastic comments to which I commented back. It's all in a day's work here in the cyber sandbox. there isn't much to say about Unitarian Sunday school, really. Except a social justice curriculum, the Church Across the Street curriculum (in which you learn about all religions) and the idea of respecting other peoples' beliefs. It's pretty basic stuff really.

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 22:24:27 (GMT) From: Powerman Email: None To: Helen Subject: What's this? Message:

I don't know, Helen. Maybe it's just my own depression but I find the essence of what you're saying to be desperate. It's like there really isn't any purpose to life, and that is desperate, so we should find something purposeful so it isn't desperate. Sure, having some purpose is better than none but why isn't there A purpose? Who's running the show anyway? Is it just a movie with no projectionist? Oh wait, I know, we're all projectionists of our own movie. But isn't that a little too cute? I mean that really is nambi pambi. Life is this enormous thing and we're just going to make these little paper cut-outs of smiling boys and girls. It just goes against my grain. I think cats have it made (except for the stalking and predatory behavior). They have no personal philosophy, are gorgeous as hell, very affectionate and they never pretend they're smiling. Can you beat that?

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 22:34:42 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Powerman Subject: What's this? Message:

Jeez...try to start a conversation around here. Me thinks you take it way out of the context in which it was meant. You're reading way too much into it. Go have a beer or something. remember M talking about the 'purpose of your life'? That's all I was talking about, really!! And maybe a little post modernist angst thrown into it--the 'angst' of my life being a bit 'soft' lately. Shit, i am grateful I have such problems. I'm healthy, happy, employed, my husband's cancer is under control, my kid is healthy. I have NO complaints. I don't want to belittle your mention of being depressed, that's no picnic, I've been there, hope you find a way out of it.

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 23:30:01 (GMT) From: Powerman Email: None To: Helen Subject: What's this? Message:

I don't mean to be rude, Helen, but it does sound like the conversational equivalent of wanking off. Or a coffee klatch or something.

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 23:25:30 (GMT) From: JW Email: None To: Helen Subject: How about just working toward the ideal? Message:

Where you can, I mean. And I don't mean to be a perfectionist. Kind of a Plato sort of thing. You know, the 'ideal' of all things. What I mean is doing what you do well, striving for the best where you can, in terms of aesthetics, humanity, and, yes 'goodness.' I know those things sound cliched and trite, and that's probably why it doesn't make much sense to talk about them. And 'purpose of life' is probably the wrong title for it. I call it being more 'human', being more in touch with what it means to be 'human.' It's a life-long endeavor, and you learn about it from both good times and tragedy. But if you talk about it, you aren't doing it, and it sounds trite, mostly because of all the religion, cults, new-age crap, smarmy television and Hallmark cards we have read, and sent. We have been kind of ruined to discuss those things, but that doesn't mean they aren't real.

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 23:37:14 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: JW Subject: How about just working toward the ideal? Message:

Thanks Jw. Great post. I don't find these things trite or cliche at all. And I know a lot of people who enjoy talking about these sorts of things. So I guess the consensus is that although this topic lurks underneath the surface of everything we do and say, it's been talked to death. Well, how 'bout them Orioles?

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 01:26:33 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Helen Subject: What's this? Message:

Helen, All I can say is that you are a very, very good person. Good for you!

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 17:11:18 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Jim Subject: Your sarcasm is tiresome and overused (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Sat, May 13, 2000 at 17:54:07 (GMT) From: Powerman Email: None To: Helen Subject: What is the purpose of your life? Message:

If there are laws inherent in the universe that we are meant to live in accord with, they have to be obvious by their enforcement. It can't be a confusing puzzle and Charlton Heston can't be the guy who delivers the laws. Mothers and children are a good example of how a purpose works. With rare exception the natural response of a mother is to care for her children. The feeling of love is inborn and motivates mommy to give a child the best she can. Even mothers who can't think their way out of a paper bag, love and care for their children. Everyone has an opinion about all this stuff. My opinion is that 'what you see is what you get'. If there's a god who wants me to believe and obey him, he's going to have to do better at getting my attention. Little signs and puzzles aren't going to do it. If he/she is god that shouldn't be so hard. Imagine if your children had to depend on knowing you in the same way you wonder if you have to depend on knowing god... little signals and puzzles. Would you expect your children to have 'faith' in you that wasn't reasonable? I doubt it. In nature there isn't anything to 'figure out'. So why do we have to figure out anything that's divine? I'll tell you something, if there's some god up there playing these silly games, he better knock it off, because I'm not digging it at all.

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 03:27:19 (GMT) From: Robyn Email: None To: Powerman Subject: What is the purpose of your life? Message:

'Imagine if your children had to depend on knowing you in the same way you wonder if you have to depend on knowing god... little signals and puzzles. Would you expect your children to have 'faith' in you that wasn't reasonable? I doubt it.' Now that's a good analogy!

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 02:46:53 (GMT) From: VP Email: None To: Powerman Subject: What is the purpose of your life? Message:

When I was a child, I wondered why I couldn't see God or talk to him/her/it. Then I would listen to the crickets or look up at all of the stars or hear the waves on the beach and think, 'Well, that is God and isn't it all magnificint?' I still think it's all amazing and I'm in awe of our physical world. I just don't know if I believe there is a God attached to any of it. I have believed that for so long, but now the only thing I believe is that we can never know the truth about it one way or the other. If it makes someone feel better to call something 'God' and it makes someone else feel better to call it 'Chemical reaction' then so be it. As long as they don't try to push their beliefs on me, then good for them! Besides, if a God wanted us to follow a bunch of rules, why did he have people like Constantine write them? Seriously!

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 04:22:27 (GMT) From: Powerman Email: None To: VP Subject: What is the purpose of your life? Message:

Stephen Hawking was interviewed by Larry King last night and was asked if he believed in God. He said if God is what embodies the physical laws of the universe then he believes in him. When he was asked what troubled him most about the human race he said 'aggression', but that evolution can't keep up with technological developments in weapons and that the solution was to genetically engineer aggression out of the human race. Now that's what I call faith in God.

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Date: Sat, May 13, 2000 at 16:39:34 (GMT) From: Robyn Email: None To: Powerman Subject: What is the purpose of your life? Message:

Dear Pman, Helen and Gregg, Someone could have a boring purpose I guess, just to get from one week to the next or something, for me right now my purpose is just survival, it may seem trivial but to me, living in it, it is far from boring. Boring would be a relief about now. So maybe even if it looks boring from the outside it is not. If you define purpose, as you do, which I like, btw, it is anything but boring, I think. I think you refer to a purpose as some may a calling, being a priest or nun, rabi, or a teacher or nurse. Also for instance a parent whose child was murdered by the undisclosed pedophile in the neigborhood dedicates their life to changing the way things are to make it safe so others won't face the same fate. This type of thing can take many forms, this is just an example. Then there is the person who has a life change by way of near death situation or something so dramatic and has a new purpose afterward in the way similar to Screwge in 'A Christmas Carol'. None of this seems boring to me so either you have a much higher level for boring or you have something totally different in your mind then what I thought you meant. Gregg, some of my student workers use that saying, the guys mostly :), 'It's all good.' I love it! I am going to make it my mantra! :) Helen, I don't know if I agree with pman that you can not create a purpose in your life. Maybe you can't but I have felt the way you do, you feel good and want to expand beyond your own life's nucleus. (done with girl scouts are ya? :), Who's to say that that motivation isn't good and valid. Love, Robyn

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Date: Sun, May 14, 2000 at 04:22:42 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Robyn Subject: What is the purpose of your life? Message:

The girl scouts be damned. I have bigger territory to conquer. Naw, just kidding. I'm still doing that (at least for now). I think you're right about guilt not always being bad, it can be a motivator. We baby boomlets don't want to feel it though, ever, do we? Or we feel it to such a neurotic extent that it serves no purpose at all except to drive us nuts. Anyway I am over whatever angst I was feeling about feeling too good. Cause I'm feeling bad again--a day with my mother in law--ha ha It's a luxury to ponder such issues I know. Love you

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Date: Sat, May 13, 2000 at 18:07:25 (GMT) From: Powerman Email: None To: Robyn Subject: What is the purpose of your life? Message:

I wasn't diminishing Helen's statements or questions. I was pointing out that a 'purpose' is obvious or simple... think about it. What is the purpose of the transmission in your car? How about the purpose of your winter coat? Usually when people are wondering what the purpose of life is, they're looking for something other than the purpose. Like if the transmission in your car loved to be in fourth gear and asked you if maybe that wasn't its purpose. You might say 'Get over it, Transmission. You're not always going to be in fourth gear. You have to go through first, second and third before you can get to fourth, and besides, sometimes I drive in the city for hours and that means you're just going to be stuck in third. Just be in whatever gear you're in and quit asking so many questions.'

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Date: Sun, May 14, 2000 at 08:16:55 (GMT) From: Robyn Email: None To: Powerman Subject: What is the purpose of your life? Message:

You don't know me very well if you think a car analogy would work for me, I kill cars! This last one just died because of the transmision as a matter of fact. I definitely am not communicating with my machinery! :) Now the coat thing has potential! So my coat thinks it should only keep me warm to a point but I tell it NO you have to keep me toasty warm!? Sounds a little new agey to me..... Maybe you don't find my humor amusing but I enjoyed writing it and I do get your point, I think, that our purpose is just what we are doing, what comes naturally. I think that is true in general and I guess if you have a big life change and aquire a purpose then at that time you it is also just natural. Anyway if my car or lawn mower start talking to me about their purpose or anything for that matter, I sure as hell won't tell them to stop cause I think having talking machines could solve my financial problems as well. :) Robyn

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Date: Sun, May 14, 2000 at 13:23:44 (GMT) From: ET Email: None To: Everyone Subject: The purpose of life is to realize Knowledge. (nt) Message:

It's a joke!

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Date: Sun, May 14, 2000 at 13:45:49 (GMT) From: Robyn Email: None To: ET Subject: The purpose of life is to realize Knowledge. (nt) Message:

ET, Oh, oh, :) I was just going to get all logical on you! Opps! Robyn

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Date: Sat, May 13, 2000 at 14:59:05 (GMT) From: Gregg Email: None To: Helen Subject: Life's Porpoise Message:

Hi Helen. That's something I haven't thought about for a long time. But looking at what I'm doing with my life, some answers to that -- for me -- arise. Because I do live my life as if it had a purpose, a reason, a point, something. To put it into words, though, (as in the Catholic catechism: to know God, to love God, to serve God) is to pretend that we have it all figured out. I sure don't. (Of course, it once felt good to think that I did...back in the days of the Perfect Master) But when I'm living life in harmony with its purpose, the sense of alignment, harmony and elan vital (sorry) is palpable. I think there is purpose in each of our lives as a pattern, implicit genetically and spiritually...like a tree's fractal growth patterns are implicit in it as a seedling. (The sun and the wind and the rain influence its growth, as does our culture and family and workplace influence our growth.) And when we unfold according to our design, we're living la dolce vita. Here's the short answer...the purpose of my life lies in loving and helping others, and opening up the mind/body to the wisdom of the Earth and the Unknown (or God). And since you bring up Mother's Day, I should include: respecting my roots (parents, grandparents), loving my wife, and giving all I can to my daughter. And my students...right now, at my desk on a Saturday morning, I am typing this instead of grading these tests...but, as my students put it: 'It's all good.'

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