Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 03:43:13 (GMT)
From: May 08, 2000 To: May 18, 2000 Page: 3 Of: 5


raina -:- Digestion in My Community OT -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 16:07:39 (GMT)
__ Elaine -:- Truce? Ready? -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 16:21:14 (GMT)
__ __ raina -:- At WAR with yourself much? -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 16:30:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ Elaine -:- At WAR with yourself much? -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 16:39:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ raina -:- had to say goodbye to you too elaine....! -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 01:28:11 (GMT)

Way -:- To Mili -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 15:19:37 (GMT)
__ Mili -:- To Mili -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 16:24:18 (GMT)
__ __ hamzen -:- Exactly what I felt when I visited your site, -:- Sat, May 13, 2000 at 11:25:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mili -:- Exactly what I felt when I visited your site, -:- Sat, May 13, 2000 at 13:23:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Exactly what I felt when I visited your site, -:- Sun, May 14, 2000 at 23:46:13 (GMT)
__ __ james flynn -:- To Mili -:- Sat, May 13, 2000 at 06:20:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mili -:- To Mili -:- Sat, May 13, 2000 at 06:56:38 (GMT)
__ __ Way -:- Back to Mili -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 17:21:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ Rated X -:- Way and Mili -:- Sun, May 14, 2000 at 00:06:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mili -:- Back to Mili -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 21:41:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Thanks god for that! -:- Back to Mili...Really You .... -:- Sat, May 13, 2000 at 05:44:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ Susan -:- Mili has been doing this awhile I think -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 17:46:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Mili -:- Mili has been doing this awhile I think -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 23:04:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- Mili has been doing this awhile I think -:- Sat, May 13, 2000 at 01:09:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Mili, think about what you have witnessed. -:- Sat, May 13, 2000 at 03:00:07 (GMT)
__ raina -:- To Vanili -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 16:15:15 (GMT)
__ __ Elaine -:- To Vanili -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 16:23:57 (GMT)

AJW -:- Elan Vital Copyright -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 10:45:42 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Elan Vital Copyright -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 14:34:27 (GMT)
__ __ Daneane -:- Fueling the Fire -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 15:49:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Fueling the Fire of Rawat's paranoia -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 17:16:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ Elaine -:- Fueling the Fire -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 16:35:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Susan -:- Elaine, the coolest premie! -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 17:13:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Damn -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 21:58:40 (GMT)
__ Jethro -:- Elan Vital Copyright -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 12:08:28 (GMT)

raina -:- J-M? Why do the French only have 1 egg for Brkfst? -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 06:48:04 (GMT)
__ Oliver -:- To leave room for a croissant, or two. (nt) -:- Sat, May 13, 2000 at 13:39:01 (GMT)

Stonor -:- FYI: Rick Ross's 'anti-cult' website -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 03:00:47 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Rick Ross's 'anti-cult' website -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 10:36:39 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Rick Ross's 'anti-cult' website: you're wrong! -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 13:02:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Rick Ross's 'anti-cult' website: you're wrong! -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 14:44:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Rick Ross's 'anti-cult' website: you're wrong! -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 16:43:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ Oliver -:- Well spotted J-M -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 13:55:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- to J-M, Oliver, AJW and anyone else -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 16:42:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mili -:- to J-M, Oliver, AJW and anyone else -:- Sat, May 13, 2000 at 13:06:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- to Mili . . . perhaps, but unintended -:- Sat, May 13, 2000 at 14:29:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Oliver -:- to Mili -:- Sat, May 13, 2000 at 14:11:47 (GMT)

raina -:- Does anyone have a cigarette? (nt) -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 02:15:18 (GMT)
__ raina -:- Can I get anyone a beer? (nt) -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 03:04:21 (GMT)
__ __ Oliver -:- yes to both the above (nt) -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 03:23:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ raina -:- don't you smoke lamb hearts -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 03:38:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ raina -:- (when you're not sticking your pinky thru your ear -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 04:21:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Oliver -:- yes (nt) -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 05:03:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- Yes, but it's a trick. -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 05:49:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Oliver -:- I'm very careful to only do it.... -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 07:04:24 (GMT)

Jim -:- Uh oh -- this guy's right here in Victoria -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 02:12:12 (GMT)
__ raina -:- Indescribable has two B's Jimbo. (nt) -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 02:18:50 (GMT)
__ __ raina -:- i was going for an undescibabble joke -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 03:13:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ raina -:- DAMN! undesribabble! (nt) -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 03:15:17 (GMT)

Jerry -:- Atkins Diet (ot) -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 00:08:53 (GMT)
__ dv -:- Cocaine and vodka diet. -:- Sat, May 13, 2000 at 12:18:26 (GMT)
__ VP -:- I've been on Atkins, Jerry -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 18:00:47 (GMT)
__ Mr Bubblehead. -:- Atkins Diet (ot) -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 08:12:38 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- Atkins Diet (ot)and meds meds meds meds meds meds -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 04:32:40 (GMT)
__ __ Katie -:- Atkins Diet - not for everyone(ot) -:- Sun, May 14, 2000 at 16:23:57 (GMT)
__ Everyone -:- Atkins Diet (ot) -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 04:13:56 (GMT)
__ raina -:- I've heard the Anorexian Diet works hands down -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 03:09:56 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- too much discipline! binge and purge! nt -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 04:38:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ Elaine -:- raina and Selene -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 20:22:29 (GMT)
__ Runamok -:- Mr Bubblehead, Jerry needs your help again -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 01:32:30 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- I'm just getting over the Gingko Biloba... -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 00:55:19 (GMT)
__ Elaine -:- Atkins Diet -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 00:23:59 (GMT)
__ JW -:- Bad, bad, bad -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 00:21:47 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- Bad, bad, bad -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 03:26:48 (GMT)
__ Robyn -:- Atkins Diet (ot) -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 00:16:46 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- Atkins Diet (ot) -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 10:45:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- I hope you meant moderate Atkins and not... -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 19:35:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Testing nt -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 01:35:11 (GMT)

Elaine B. -:- Question in my community -:- Thurs, May 11, 2000 at 15:00:12 (GMT)
__ Elaine B. -:- My goodness - to all so far... -:- Thurs, May 11, 2000 at 23:52:59 (GMT)
__ __ raina -:- The thrill of the most horrific-4 the comatose -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 03:02:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ Oliver -:- Sounds reasonable to me.... -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 07:24:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ p -:- The thrill of the most horrific-4 the comatose -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 04:14:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ q -:- The thrill of the most horrific-4 the comatose -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 04:44:35 (GMT)
__ __ JW -:- My goodness - to all so far... -:- Thurs, May 11, 2000 at 23:59:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Come on, you really overstate things here -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 01:31:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JW -:- Come on Jim -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 05:57:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- JW, I agree - example -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 15:35:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- What in the world is that supposed to mean? -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 15:48:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Lack of media coverage -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 16:12:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Lack of media coverage -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 16:25:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Lack of media coverage -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 16:49:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- Lack of media coverage -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 17:09:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Lack of media coverage -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 22:08:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- No, YOU come on -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 14:31:52 (GMT)
__ __ Elaine -:- Oh and Way... -:- Thurs, May 11, 2000 at 23:56:52 (GMT)
__ JW -:- Problem with the question......... -:- Thurs, May 11, 2000 at 21:08:38 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Problem with your rant -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 01:24:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ JW -:- You miss the point completely -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 05:52:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- No, I got your point -- I disagree -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 14:45:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ JW -:- No, you still miss the point -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 21:03:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ gErRy -:- Jeezuz, Jim -:- Sat, May 13, 2000 at 16:25:33 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Well said, Joe... -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 00:34:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- Oops, Susan and all... -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 18:05:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ Susan -:- good to hear Nigel, -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 16:54:01 (GMT)
__ __ O -:- Problem with the question......... -:- Thurs, May 11, 2000 at 23:22:06 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- Question in my community -:- Thurs, May 11, 2000 at 19:35:06 (GMT)
__ Hal -:- There but for the grace of God........ -:- Thurs, May 11, 2000 at 17:48:38 (GMT)
__ __ dv -:- Well said, Hal.nt -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 00:36:17 (GMT)
__ __ JW -:- Support for parents (ot) -:- Thurs, May 11, 2000 at 23:12:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ Hal -:- America America , land of the free.... -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 12:13:41 (GMT)
__ __ Susan -:- Female mother of three...myself -:- Thurs, May 11, 2000 at 22:19:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ Hal -:- Susan I don't condone the action..... -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 12:29:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Helen -:- shaken baby syndrome, etc. -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 21:14:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Hal -:- I don't know about the guy's background , maybe he -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 12:41:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- I don't know about the guy's background , maybe he -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 16:36:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Susan -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 16:56:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- You are not So unique.... -:- Sat, May 13, 2000 at 12:28:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- SB/Helen -:- Sat, May 13, 2000 at 16:52:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- SB/Helen -:- Sun, May 14, 2000 at 04:35:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Helen -to explain better -:- Sun, May 14, 2000 at 16:52:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Sorry to be so bitchy, Elaine -:- Sun, May 14, 2000 at 05:30:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Helen - to explain more -:- Sun, May 14, 2000 at 17:15:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Helen - to explain more -:- Sun, May 14, 2000 at 22:09:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Sorry to be so bitchy, Elaine -:- Sun, May 14, 2000 at 07:09:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Thanks (nt) -:- Sun, May 14, 2000 at 14:51:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- your compassion is wrongly placed, IMO -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 21:43:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- There is never a wrong place for compassion (nt -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 22:28:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- your compassion is wrongly placed, IMO -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 21:50:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- This deserves it's own thread... -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 22:40:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- This deserves it's own thread... -:- Sat, May 13, 2000 at 02:50:57 (GMT)
__ Katie -:- Question in my community -:- Thurs, May 11, 2000 at 17:45:26 (GMT)
__ Way -:- Question in my community -:- Thurs, May 11, 2000 at 15:37:34 (GMT)
__ __ Mili -:- Question in my community -:- Thurs, May 11, 2000 at 22:53:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ Susan -:- yes, there is.... -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 01:45:32 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- Sorry defense attorneys (ot) -:- Thurs, May 11, 2000 at 15:33:02 (GMT)
__ __ gerry -:- fry the fucker...wife--life (nt) -:- Thurs, May 11, 2000 at 17:07:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ raina -:- See Gerry! You're already thinking 'bacon! bacon!' -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 03:17:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ Dr C Barnard -:- Meet GerRy....The only living heart donor .nt -:- Thurs, May 11, 2000 at 21:28:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Susan -:- I'm with Gerry my compassion is for the two year -:- Thurs, May 11, 2000 at 22:25:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Susan? -:- Thurs, May 11, 2000 at 23:08:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- Susan? -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 01:42:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Susan? -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 06:07:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- also... -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 01:56:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- I agree with you -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 06:15:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- true -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 16:43:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ Zelda -:- Compassionate confinement to process guilt -:- Thurs, May 11, 2000 at 20:09:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JW -:- What does this mean??? -:- Thurs, May 11, 2000 at 23:06:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Compassionate confinement to process guilt -:- Thurs, May 11, 2000 at 21:37:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Compassionate confinement to process guilt -:- Thurs, May 11, 2000 at 20:44:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Zelda -:- Compassionate confinement to process guilt -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 07:25:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- 'isms' create schisms -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 17:08:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ zelda -:- 'isms' create schisms -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 17:31:58 (GMT)

Occasional Mole -:- The Hamster's schedule .... -:- Thurs, May 11, 2000 at 13:47:06 (GMT)
__ Cultbuster UK -:- Maharaji and the Cops -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 13:58:12 (GMT)
__ Angry -:- Sounds like a nice, folksey CULT gathering(NT) -:- Thurs, May 11, 2000 at 21:25:53 (GMT)
__ jondon -:- for people who have received the techniques -:- Thurs, May 11, 2000 at 14:36:13 (GMT)
__ __ Elaine -:- Yes -:- Thurs, May 11, 2000 at 15:03:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sam -:- confused -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 01:43:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Have you ever come to the right place .nt -:- Sat, May 13, 2000 at 15:58:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ SB -:- confused? Is the same story, really.... -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 15:00:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Daneane -:- confused? Is the same story, really.... -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 15:54:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Angry -:- confused -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 09:27:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Welcome !!!!!!! -:- Fri, May 12, 2000 at 01:59:53 (GMT)


Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 16:07:39 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Digestion in My Community OT
Message:
The Facts:
Larry Cross has just been introduced as the $360million winner in 'The Big Game' lottery.
The press thinks it's cute that they said they 'will continue to buy lottery tickets'. (CNN and MSNBC commentary).

Does anyone ever consider the danger created (in all of our lives, directly and indirectly) by putting so much money in the hands of the brain dead? And what kind of PRESS/media people applaud the 'noble' winner-morons who say they will continue with their blue collar enslavement as if that is really 'noble' instead of psychotically clueless?

But this is my real question:
2-3 days ago, before anyone knew who winner was (supposedly), the store owner told TV listeners that he remembered the guy 'because he bought 100 tickets, and it was his FIRST time ever playing the lottery.'

Today Larry Cross said that he found out he was the winner when he saw/heard the store owner talking on TV. 'I said to my wife, give me that ticket again to check the numbers.' So...

What happened to the searching through '100 tickets' part of his cuteness etc? Why does it seem like he's lying about the details to me?

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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 16:21:14 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: Truce? Ready?
Message:
raina,
Can we ever post together? The Buddy Hackett post was a slip on my part I had forgotten I wasn't supposed to post with you.

I'm not complimenting you - but, I simply enjoy your posts. I could say more - but my praise before upset you so.

A simple yes or no and I will again respect your wishes.
We don't have to be best friends - I understand that. I will always hold back any compliments - but it is hard for me.
But,restraint is a good thing. Restraint is a good thing...restraint is a good thing.

Elaine

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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 16:30:34 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: At WAR with yourself much?
Message:
Duh!
ByGones babe!

the only enemy is PROJECTION ok?

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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 16:39:26 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: At WAR with yourself much?
Message:
Well, that's certainly true.

Of course, it's not my 'only' enemy - but, enemy none-the-less,yes.

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 01:28:11 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: had to say goodbye to you too elaine....!
Message:
i'm sure SB will have tons of stuff to share....
one of the most fascinating women I've ever read!

and she can do it all in 2 sentences or less!

take care....
maybe we would have gotten to exchange
if i weren't be gang-banged by that funky
'teacher' and her flunkies....

(i appreciated that you said you liked my writing etc-
never got to thankyou 4 that)

by

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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 15:19:37 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: To Mili
Message:
Mili,

I am responding to your post about roses and logic below.

I have to say, Mili, that you remind me of somebody I knew in my childhood. Every summer we went on a family vacation back to the old mining town in the Black Hills where my parents grew up. Across the street from my grandmother's house lived a little boy. Every once in a while, while I was playing with my siblings in the front yard, this little kid would come out, throw a rock at us, and then disappear back into his house. Every summer it was the same story. He never would come out and really play with us, just throw his little rocks now and again, and that's it.

Some of your rocks have been particularly nasty, for instance the barf bag comment you made a week or so ago. One of the ugliest posts here ever, in my opinion. But what really bothers me is that you run away and never really play. I would reply to your point about roses and logic, but I figure what's the point, you're not interested in any intelligent and honorable discussion.

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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 16:24:18 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Way
Subject: To Mili
Message:
There's nothing you could say that would change my mind about Maharaji. He's the one who told me about it in the first place, he's the one who sent the initiator around for me to receive it, and he's the one who keeps reminding me to practice it. It feels good and I love it.

And I know there's nothing I could say to make you change your mind, either. I wouldn't even want to - what do I care. So what's the point? Why should I waste my time? Read the archives - been there, done that.

Why do you think the barf bag metaphor was nasty? That's exactly how I feel when I open up this page sometimes - have a barf bag in handy. Everybody is puking, it stinks, and it takes some determination and will power not to start puking, too.

As for your kid throwing stones example - cute. My take on it is that I am just an ocassional observer who briefly comments from time to time. I don't perceive myself as throwing stones. But maybe you do.

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Date: Sat, May 13, 2000 at 11:25:37 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Exactly what I felt when I visited your site,
Message:
and you know what , it's now deleted from my bookmarks.

See simple as that.

And the reason is that the subject matter and style is obnoxious to me but it's your life, equal rights etc, and not forgetting good manners.

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Date: Sat, May 13, 2000 at 13:23:13 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: hamzen
Subject: Exactly what I felt when I visited your site,
Message:
So my guess is that you don't really like Alan Watts all that much - is that it? ;o)
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Date: Sun, May 14, 2000 at 23:46:13 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Exactly what I felt when I visited your site,
Message:
I can't remember Alan Watts being mentioned, but no, haven't got a lot of time for spin artists full stop, and he was certainly a spin artist.

I think I was expecting at least some of that 'punky' energy you showed in your earlier days here, but no, a muzaky new age site, with no style life.

Even the Ramones would have cheered me up.

Sorry!

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Date: Sat, May 13, 2000 at 06:20:56 (GMT)
From: james flynn
Email: not given
To: Mili
Subject: To Mili
Message:
Mili can you tell me why you read these posts when M has specifically said he does not want you to?
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Date: Sat, May 13, 2000 at 06:56:38 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: james flynn
Subject: To Mili
Message:
And where did you get THAT specific piece of corrupt information?
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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 17:21:55 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Back to Mili
Message:
Mili,

Saying that it stinks here is another thrown stone.

Do you want to just continue baiting us with insults and snide jabs or do you want to engage in a conversation where both parties listen politely and eventually come to some mutual understanding? Maybe you are right that we will not change each other's minds, but at least we could get to the point where we respectfully agree to disagree, and go our separate ways.

But I still don't understand your position about the two issues here: Mr. Rawat and Knowledge. The consensus among exes is that:

(1) Mr. Rawat is merely human and not any sort of great Master.

and

(2) 'Knowledge' is not superior to other spiritual endeavors and experiences.

Exactly where do you stand on these two issues? Do you consider Mr. Rawat as a living divine Master equal to Jesus and Buddha, for example? Or perhaps just a very helpful and inspiring man? Do you think Knowledge is the best way for all people to get in touch with their higher selves? What exactly is your practice of Knowledge? Do you go to all Satellite events and pay over and above the requested fee? Do you travel to India in hopes of kissing Rawat's feet? I'm not trying to get personal, I just want you to clearly, fairly, and honestly state your position.

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Date: Sun, May 14, 2000 at 00:06:59 (GMT)
From: Rated X
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Way and Mili
Message:
To Way,
I love your honest straight questions above.

To Mili,
I hate the way you just angry and weasel out, typical of some sick premie creep.

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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 21:41:16 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Way
Subject: Back to Mili
Message:
I don't have time to fuck around with you, man. Geddit? You've got it all figured out - be my guest. Shoot yourself in the foot as many times as you want. It's really depressing to watch, I tell you. That's why I don't hang around here much anymore.
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Date: Sat, May 13, 2000 at 05:44:26 (GMT)
From: Thanks god for that!
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Back to Mili...Really You ....
Message:
So convinced and brainwashed! Premie talk taught by THE MASTER; GOD INCARNATED; THE LORD OF THE UNIVERSE; THE SAVIOUR; etc....I could keep going...Premies believe lately that he is all that, even when he denied all those claims. Funny isn't? Which one is it? I know. You don't care: Pathetic, isn't? Forgot: Nobody there...It's a bad tennis match!!!! The ball bounces back only because bounces on the WALL...

SB

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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 17:46:00 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Mili has been doing this awhile I think
Message:
I think he is the same one who said Jagdeo isn't a child molester because he had played tennis with the guy and he could tell. This was pre Abi and Anth when I was out on a limb by myself speaking out on the subject. I think it was Mili. If it wasn't you Mili say so.
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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 23:04:46 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Susan
Subject: Mili has been doing this awhile I think
Message:
Yeah, so I played tennis once with Jagdeo, and he seemed like a normal person to me at the time. A little crabby when he was losing strokes, but appeared to be behaving in a civilized manner. So, what's the big deal about that?
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Date: Sat, May 13, 2000 at 01:09:02 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Mili has been doing this awhile I think
Message:
As I recall the big deal was you said I was lying because you knew him so well it could not be true.
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Date: Sat, May 13, 2000 at 03:00:07 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Mili, think about what you have witnessed.
Message:
Mili,

'A little crabby when losing strokes,' suggests two things: you're proud of your tennis expertise and, more importantly in this context, that he has a problem with losing 'the upper hand.' In other words, he craves control. This is an indication of someone who likes control over other people - and the easiest people to control in most contemporary cultures, as an adult, are those younger - especially children.

Stonor

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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 16:15:15 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: To Vanili
Message:
i pictured that little kid in you Black Hills story to be of Indian descent wearing sandals and a colorful sari.

Do you think that little kid was pathologically shy? Or sinister and fucking with your head, to make sure you'd NEVER forget him, even though you never spoke? Or maybe he was running an international numbers game from his bedroom?

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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 16:23:57 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: To Vanili
Message:
See? I want to respond to this post of yours.But, it's ok if you say no.
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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 10:45:42 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Elan Vital Copyright
Message:
Hi,

One of the ways the cult is reacting to all the unfavourable information that is appearing on the internet about them, is to contact the ISPs hosting the sites, telling them that they are hosting material in breach of copyright, and threating them if they don't remove it.

This happened to Jean Michel's site recently, and also happened to a UK site that published a cult letter.

In the view of the fact that the cult changed it's name from Divine Light Mission to Elan Vital, and, last year, when threatening a British newspaper, claimed that Divine Light Mission was not connected with Elan Vital, we should tell the ISPs that the material comes from Divine Light Mission, not Elan Vital. If fact Elan Vital didn't exist when the material was published and there is no connection between the organisations.

Anth the Mischevious

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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 14:34:27 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Elan Vital Copyright
Message:
What about suggesting Satpal how he could get rid of Prempal on the net?

That would be too funny, don't you think?

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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 15:49:10 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel and AJW
Subject: Fueling the Fire
Message:
Okay, I'm stumped. Maybe it's a personal history thing. It seems to me, in my admittedly limited experience, that the best way for them to deal with you bad net people would be to just leave you be. I mean, why so blantantly show their concern and worry by these botched attempts at censorship?

Personally, it seems to me, the more they struggle with it, the more it shows they have something to hide. I went to a satellite event and was asked if I was there for myself or 'to hurt Maharaji' by giving the information out somewhere else. I just thought....well, why would giving out any of this information be bad?

So I wonder if its not a personal thing. I mean, at least in the case of J-M...is it like the trusted obedient one suddenly changing face and turning on the beloved Master? Is it not about public image at all, but more of an internal struggle and personal grudge? Was the site going down a strictly regional thing or straight from the heart of the organization?

This 'you are either with us or against us' mentality has got to be the most frightening thing I've seen in all this M stuff. But I guess that's manipulation for you...ownership and submission.

Yeah, yeah, yeah...the same theme echoing around in my head...'What the hell was I thinking?'

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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 17:16:43 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: Fueling the Fire of Rawat's paranoia
Message:
the best way for them to deal with you bad net people would be to just leave you be. I mean, why so blantantly show their concern and worry by these botched attempts at censorship?

Precisely. This is a symptom of something being wrong. I don't think the premies themselves have anything to hide. Their attitude is merely the result of EV's policy, i.e. m himself, or his close surrounding wanting to 'protect' him. From what ? HE is the one having a lot to hide ..... and you can guess what .... merely the fact he's not so much divine, he's a sociopath, and very likely extremely paranoid.

I've been a part of EV's administration for so long, and I've always heard that same motto about 'protecting Him', because 'He's so vulnerable', 'He doesn't want this' and 'He doesn't want that' .... Never could understand why whilst I was involved. Wouldn't make any sense. Of course there are a few bongos here and there among the premies, like anywhere else, but you don't need such security systems to deal with them.

Now they don't invoke 'security' so much, they've invented a new concept: safety, supposedly to 'protect' the premies !!!!!

And this justifies 30% of the active premies involved in ushering-safety-security !!!!!

That's the symptom of a huge paranoia. What's funny is that most premies don't like that at all, and a major reason for not participating. Of course they won't say it openly.

Rawat's authority and paranoia is precisely what's sinking his own ship. Always been like that I guess.

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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 16:35:38 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: Fueling the Fire
Message:
' Well,I thought...why would giving out any of the information be bad?'

Excellent!! You should have said that out loud. Would have been great for this forum to hear the response.

Sorry - don't usually use 'should' sentences.

Elaine

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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 17:13:09 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Elaine, the coolest premie!
Message:
Like I said, if they all acted like you, it wouldn't be a cult.
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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 21:58:40 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Damn
Message:
Don't keep reminding them. Though it's true.
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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 12:08:28 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Elan Vital Copyright
Message:
Much of m's satsangs were by no means original. If one checks back thru many (particularly) RS and Sant Mat Gurus, the satsangs are all the same and have been in print for years.
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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 06:48:04 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: jean-michel
Subject: J-M? Why do the French only have 1 egg for Brkfst?
Message:
Because one egg is enOUEF?


i am in a fog?
where did i hear this yesterday?
not here i hope?

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Date: Sat, May 13, 2000 at 13:39:01 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: To leave room for a croissant, or two. (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 03:00:47 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: FYI: Rick Ross's 'anti-cult' website
Message:
rickross's 'anti-cult' website

From its intro:

This web site was created to offer the public a resource of information concerning controversial and/or potentially unsafe groups-- as well as some groups that have been called 'cults'. Here you will find an archive that contains thousands of documents, which includes news stories, related articles, reports, letters, court records, book excerpts and personal testimonies.

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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 10:36:39 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Rick Ross's 'anti-cult' website
Message:
Hi Stonor,

that's quite a website the guy's put together. I couldn't find us anywhere though, and have written to Rick, suggesting he includes a section on DLM/Elan Vital and pointing him to Ex-premie.org.

Anth the feeling left out

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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 13:02:57 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Rick Ross's 'anti-cult' website: you're wrong!
Message:
He's links to pro and anti m websites .... check his cults' list, and follow guru maharaj ji ....
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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 14:44:53 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Rick Ross's 'anti-cult' website: you're wrong!
Message:
Jean-Michel,

I gave up following guru maharaji nearly two years ago.

Are you back in Paris yet?

We should sup a glass or two in La Tartine and you can tell me about your adventures in the States.

Anth de Banlieu

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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 16:43:04 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Rick Ross's 'anti-cult' website: you're wrong!
Message:
Yeah ...... some glasses of good French wine!!!

I've had some good wine from California too, and brought some great stuff from the US .... you'll like it.

Of course I can't tell what it is for the moment, but everybody will have a chance to have a look at one of the most hidden stuff ..... never printed in EV-DLM's magazines of course, not copyrighted ..... hahahaha, but you've paid for this most of you, hahahaha!!!!

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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 13:55:53 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Well spotted J-M
Message:
Rick Ross's site is so huge it' wasn't hard to miss. I guess he is of the opinion that M's cult is relatively small time and only warrants the links he has listed. Anyway,Anth's communication with him can't hurt and I'm sure it was done in such a way to interest him.
It never ceases to amaze me how few sites such as Ross's have any mention of M. Just goes to show how efficient he has been over the years of keeping a low profile. This can easily be remedied by people, who can be bothered, sending an email to such sites.
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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 16:42:52 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: to J-M, Oliver, AJW and anyone else
Message:
Thanks for additional info. I found it doing another search, and didn't have time to check it out thoroughly, so it was interesting to read Anth's post. I found it surprising that m is not there, because the group I was reading about was a much smaller organization. Perhaps a 'petition' of sorts (or a 'spamming' with form-letter requests) could encourage Ross to include m.

J-M, I don't necessarily make a connection with having both pro and con website links with not being 'anti-cult.' It could give people the opportunity to see the contradictions (as your documention of EV papers does), and as well, it follows the democratic principle of giving everyone the opportunity to present their side.

What intrigued me most was documentation of some 'cult' court cases, which could be of interest to those who wonder about possibilities of legal action with regard to cult 'irregularities.'

I noticed the post below referring to his site after I posted, but I think it's a good idea to post these other sites regularly. Perhaps a united anti-cult action in the future could help to clear some smoke-screens from the air. Numbers could help in efforts with regard to cults. There are so many common complaints surrounding 'personality cults' in particular. The Roman Catholic Church has had to begin to address some of its responsibilities for lack of accountability in the past.

Stonor

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Date: Sat, May 13, 2000 at 13:06:44 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Stonor
Subject: to J-M, Oliver, AJW and anyone else
Message:
That's an interesting line of thought, Stonor.

Are you implying that the Roman Catholic Church has been sustaining a personality cult of Jesus as Christ, or what?

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Date: Sat, May 13, 2000 at 14:29:46 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: to Mili . . . perhaps, but unintended
Message:
You DO read sometimes!

Now THAT's a powerful 'personality'/ INDIVIDUAL, no? But Jesus didn't create the Roman Catholic Church, Peter began it. Churches/temples etc. are usually beautiful, aren't they? I had a friend who traveled through Eastern Europe taking pictures of churches . . . some of the smallest ones were especially special.

Shri Hans, m. or whoever . . . dream on.

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Date: Sat, May 13, 2000 at 14:11:47 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: to Mili
Message:
Well of course they have. What else is the Roman Catholic Church but a two thousand year old cult. That is the evolutionary nature of cults. If they last long enough, they become religions.
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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 02:15:18 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Does anyone have a cigarette? (nt)
Message:
puff puff puff thanx
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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 03:04:21 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: Can I get anyone a beer? (nt)
Message:
dfghjkl
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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 03:23:48 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: yes to both the above (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 03:38:02 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Oliver
Subject: don't you smoke lamb hearts
Message:
and drink human blood?
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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 04:21:28 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: oliver
Subject: (when you're not sticking your pinky thru your ear
Message:
drum)
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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 05:03:32 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: yes (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 05:49:33 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Oliver
Subject: Yes, but it's a trick.
Message:
and it took a lot of work but at least it fooled someone apparently. Don't try it at home.
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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 07:04:24 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: I'm very careful to only do it....
Message:
....under strict medical supervision.
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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 02:12:12 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Uh oh -- this guy's right here in Victoria
Message:
It's amazing

It is not known to very many people on this planet, but there exists a University of Knowledge & Wisdom. This university does not have any structure, charges no fees, is close by. Its location is a secret and access can only be gained by those that are willing to put in the effort.

This university does not advertise anywhere and is only known to those that attend it. The only requirement for entrance to this place of learning is through simple sincerity. In order to be able to connect with the possibility of gaining entrance, you have to be willing to listen very briefly to a present student who will point you in the direction of gaining admission. The benefits are indescribable, endless and extremely fulfilling.

You get to be in your own movie where you are both the director and script writer and you get to meet the producer as often as you desire.

A small footnote: For those that are thinking of joining don't bother because thought won't get you admission.

Gary Ramsey
Victoria, BC, Canada

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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 02:18:50 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Indescribable has two B's Jimbo. (nt)
Message:
aajoj;lmv
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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 03:13:57 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: i was going for an undescibabble joke
Message:
and it wasn't funny in the least! sorry to have wasted precious clicking time.
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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 03:15:17 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: JIM
Subject: DAMN! undesribabble! (nt)
Message:
shit
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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 00:08:53 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Atkins Diet (ot)
Message:
Has anyone heard of or tried the Atkins Diet? I need to lose a few pounds, but I'm both attracted to and skeptical of this diet. The basic outline of this diet, from what I've heard, is to bone up on proteins and fat, and eliminate carbohydrates. That means no grains, an important source of fibre. I'm skeptical of that. I like the idea of not going hungry while losing weight, which is what's supposed to make the Atkins diet all the rave, but I don't want to lose nutrition, or detract anything essential for the health of my mind and body, if eliminating carbohydrates is what that does. Anybody have knowledgeable input on the pros and cons of eliminating carbohydrates from your diet?
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Date: Sat, May 13, 2000 at 12:18:26 (GMT)
From: dv
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Cocaine and vodka diet.
Message:
Worked well for me in the early 90's, but the sex got out of hand...

dv The Reformed

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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 18:00:47 (GMT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: I've been on Atkins, Jerry
Message:
Jerry,
I haven't read this whole thread. I went on Atkins for several months and lost about 30 lbs, but to stay safe I took the vitamins and minerals recommended in the book and drank a TON of water each day. If you don't your kidneys can fail. It's not a diet to mess around with--you have to do it right or don't bother.

Atkins is NOT a good way to eat for life because it is dangerous to be on for the long term. Cutting out useless carbs (bread and pasta) is a good idea to help you maintain your weight once you go off of ATkins--you can eat more veggies to get the carbs you need.

The fact that my internist(best in the city) RECOMMENDED that I go on this makes me think it isn't as bad as everyone says. He said, 'As long as you follow it strictly--take the vitamins and drink your water-- and don't stay on too long, it's a great diet and I recommend it for a few months.'

Of course, I went on vacation and then I gained almost all of my weight back. SIGH. I'm about to go on it again myself.

One side effect I had was severe headaches for the first three days. I think it was de-toxing from all the sugar I am used to. After that, I felt great.

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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 08:12:38 (GMT)
From: Mr Bubblehead.
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Atkins Diet (ot)
Message:
Dear Jerry,
IMO there's no such thing as a free lunch, no pun intended. The best, the most sustainable way to weight loss, happiness, and joyful extremities, is to eat sensibly, preferably fresh organic produce. Lots of fruit and vegies, and exercise, exercise, exercise, preferably doing something you enjoy, and then you too can be a happy little bubblehead like me.
Cheers
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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 04:32:40 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Atkins Diet (ot)and meds meds meds meds meds meds
Message:
meds meds meds meds meds meds meds meds meds meds meds meds meds
meds meds meds meds meds meds meds meds meds meds meds meds meds

OH are you not tired of this yet?? anyway one time some MEDS made me gain 40 pounds - a LOT on a 5.3' frame.
I was fAt and all in a year and I freaked and went on Atkins.
I lost the weight easily, was never hungry and felt great. I made sure to drink tons of water and never to skin the salads.
I don't think it's healthy for long term but I did lose all the weigh in about 4 or 5 months max w/o exercise. and never regained it because I still stick to basically low carbo diet. I know it's not a popular belief but it works for me. Whenever I start to gain I lose some carb in my diet, bread (beer!) or something and the weight just goes away. I do think some people just don't metabolize carbs as well as others.
The debate on this is endless though. Just look at the alt.support.diet newsgroup it's an ongoing heated debate makes the premie vs. ex one look mild at times.
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Date: Sun, May 14, 2000 at 16:23:57 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Atkins Diet - not for everyone(ot)
Message:
Hi Selene and Jerry and all -
My two cents on Atkins (a.k.a Protein Power, etc.). It works great for some people - less well for others. I guess every diet is like that. I have a friend who lost 80 lbs. on Atkins and he has kept it off. He looks great. The Atkins diet, BTW, is MUCH healthier than what he was eating before (cokes, chips, pizza) - he now eats vegetables (!) and he does try to avoid fat. His health has improved tremendously. He is still eating a low-carb diet - it works for him.

However, the Atkins diet didn't work at all for me. It gave me horrible breath and unspeakably foul body odor, plus I felt terrible all the time. I lost 10 lbs in a month, but I can do that on any lo-cal diet. Part of the problem is that I'm a vegetarian (altho eat fish), and I got VERY bored of what I could eat on that diet.

My point is that it depends on your own metabolism, etc., as Selene said. Some people don't metabolize carbohydrates very well, and I think some people don't metabolize protein very well (me). Also, I would caution anyone who decides to go on Atkins to try and avoid fat as well as carbohydrates, otherwise it can be dangerous. And do what Selene did (drink a lot of water, eat a lot of vegetables, and take vitamins!)

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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 04:13:56 (GMT)
From: Everyone
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Atkins Diet (ot)
Message:
Someone very close to me has lost LOTS of pounds, they are now slim and think they are beautiful. It really does work but I don't know about the health aspect. This person doesn't appear to have any less energy than before. With such a high protein diet one might be concerned about it being heavy on the kidneys.

Everyone

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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 03:09:56 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: I've heard the Anorexian Diet works hands down
Message:
you get ReALLy skinny man!
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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 04:38:15 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: too much discipline! binge and purge! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 20:22:29 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: raina and Selene
Message:
No that's the 'Binge-Purge-Bolemia Diet'

The Anorexia Diet IS the best one. Or then you can use my personal favorite - 'The All In One Depression Diet'.

By far the quickest and longest lasting.

My best to you ,
Elaine

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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 01:32:30 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Mr Bubblehead, Jerry needs your help again
Message:
I seem to be consistently up on whatever you are curious about.
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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 00:55:19 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: I'm just getting over the Gingko Biloba...
Message:
..not getting over, exactly -more like getting used to.

Most herbal or whatever so-called fucking complementary thingies tend to cost big money for small tablet then do very small wonders to make me feel remotely diffferent or healthier or well-beingingier or persuade me to live by its rules forever or do propagation on its behalf.. But Gingko...

I've been running a Gingko experiment with ME as guinea pig these last ten days. This one makes a difference, believe me... everything they said. Mucho blood flow to brain and extremeties... (Still ugly as fuck but you can't have everything..)

Ta for tip. Jer. Report back later when I get the Nobel or laid...

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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 00:23:59 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Atkins Diet
Message:
I don't exactly have 'knowledgable ' input.
But, let me say - I have seen miraculous results in VERY fat people around me. It has changed there lives only for the better. Their cholesterol dropped, I think in the first month or two as I recall. 60 lbs was the norm lost.

Best thing is really to study/follow the book. Any kidney problems - I know that was a no-no,for example. The book itself says it all. Good luck.

Elaine

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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 00:21:47 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Bad, bad, bad
Message:
Jerry, the Atkins diet usually causes people to eat really unhealthy food. Since they feel deprived, they start eating a lot of bacon and such. Bad.

So much protein is also hard on your kidneys and liver. In fact, what I have read is that what happens with this diet is that people get so sick of it that they eat less, thus reduce calories and lose weight that way. Then they just gain it back when they return to their regular diet.

Also, you need carbohydrates for your brain to function properly (it produces glucose which is what powers the brain, etc.)

You know who I think has the most sensible eating program is that Dr. Andrew Weil. He recommends a sort of balanced Mediterranean type diet, using olive oil for fat. He has a number of books out and a great website. Plus, he seems to be constantly on PBS. What I like about him is that he seems SANE. No gimmicks, just eating based on the best scientific information we have, and including alternative medicine/nutrition where that has been shown to be effective.

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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 03:26:48 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Bad, bad, bad
Message:
I agree with JW. You might lose a lot of weight on that diet but it isn't a good diet for a long term lifestyle. Because, honestly are you going to be able to give up all carbos? Pasta, bread, etc? I guess if you were to eat a big old bagel and a bunch of pasta every day and weren't exercising, yeah, you would put on the lbs. It does just turn to sugar and your body can't use it up unless you're an athlete.

But I don't go for these diets where you have to eliminate whole food groups. Also I don't think you can really deprive yourself all the time. Hey if you're attracted to eggs and meat, there is probably nothing wrong with eating them in moderation. Eggs were given a bad rap for too long--they are a great food.
I think the best way to lose weight is to find a diet you can live with the rest of your life, that is going to support your body's needs for the rest of your life. I like Andrew Weil, too. I think he is very sane also. And he is no slim jim. He is probably at a good weight for him though--a weight he can stay at for the rest of his life because he is not starving himself and yo-yoing up and down.

Exercise is the big piece of the puzzle. I have been swimming (basically forced at gunpoint, 'let's see, chronic pain, or swim, chronic pain or swim--I guess I'll start swimming). I probably weigh the same but the clothes are a lot looser.

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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 00:16:46 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Atkins Diet (ot)
Message:
Dear Jerry,
Complex carbs are very important, whole grains of all kinds. Sugar is a simple carb as is white flour and rice. I think cutting out simple carbs is good while I believe we really need complex carbs.
Want to look good while you in the line at the fountain, eh? :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 10:45:44 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Atkins Diet (ot)
Message:
Yes, Robyn, it's that time of year for hanging out by the fountain, and I must look my best :)

Thanks, everybody for your input. I appreciate all sober warnings and best wishes. I'm leaning most toward Selene's idea. Sounds like a route I can handle. We'll see. And Nigel, thanks for the Gingko experiment. I'm wary of trying 'strange' additives, or herbs, alternative stuff, and the like, but if this stuff can really help the brain function more properly, I think I'll give it a go.

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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 19:35:44 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: I hope you meant moderate Atkins and not...
Message:
binge and purge. That one is kinda hard on the stomach / throat linings and things. Does keep the weight down. Or so I have heard.
Really Jeffy if you have a friendly newsreader and are thick skinned - which this place can make one -
or just even lurk - the alt.support.diet newsgroup is a very good source of info. on this stuff. Pro and con. and lots of links and personal stories.
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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 01:35:11 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Testing nt
Message:
Testing
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Date: Thurs, May 11, 2000 at 15:00:12 (GMT)
From: Elaine B.
Email: None
To: Anyone
Subject: Question in my community
Message:
I am curious.

A man last year after the Super Bowl game had been drinking.
His 2 and 1/2 yr old son messed his pants. The man 'slammed' the son against or to the floor,causing extensive skull trauma. He and his wife in the early morning hours took the child to the hospital - where he died (or was pronounced dead.)

This man has pleaded guilty and also that he smeared the boy's feces on the boy's face.
This man is up for 32 years in prison.

What would you do if you were the judge?

Should this man be put away from our society bec he is a threat for 32 yrs.? Or maybe 5 or 7 or ten.

Should he be given a lesser sentence bec he is saving the taxpayers the expense of a trial and is showing his remorse by his plea. Was he 'just drunk' and would never do this again so should be sent to therapy and possibly, under supervision, take anabuse (sp?). (A drug whereby you get sick drinking alcohol or even having rubbing alcohol on your skin.)
Also possibly Rage Anonymous groups or anger management along w/ other forms of psychotherapy.
Or send him away for the full 32 years - afterall, he committed murder.

This is all I know. Race,age,other children,any past record...?

I was curious deeply as to what I thought...when I thought I'd like to see what the rest of you are made of.
Some thoughts?....Who are these people I'm posting with.

Don't answer if you don't want. I understand this has nothing to do with M. But what have we learned after our years on the planet.

The judge hasn't decided yet. I'll get back when I find out the results.

Thank you for taking the time,for those that do,
Elaine B.

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Date: Thurs, May 11, 2000 at 23:52:59 (GMT)
From: Elaine B.
Email: None
To: All
Subject: My goodness - to all so far...
Message:
I just got back to the computor.

I truly was astounded by so much response...I figured bec it didn't have anything to do w/ M you'd all move on to the next post.

Jerry- Really, this didn't have anything to do w/ M. Just wanted to see how people felt about this. You get to know a person over coffee. This is just my way of getting to know you all better. No judgement even. We're all so different aren't we? I love it. The mothers,the men,the fathers,the perps and the victims all in the pot.

Umm Way? was it--I am deeply curious about my own thoughts on this. I didn't want to influence anyone at the beginning.
Like most of us,not all,I have two sides. Often more. And I like seeing most sides, unemotionally...to learn. But, this would be one hard to be unemotional about,no?
I gave only the details I knew - so we were all wide open to 'assume' if we had that bent - or not assume anything.
To accept that we did NOT know all the details and go on from there.
I think it was JW that pointed out we didn't know much ( I'll go back and see,sorry if I'm wrong.)Even if I gave every detail the media gave,We would not know all,would we,JW? Ever.

Back to Way,I am deeply curious about my thoughts.Without looking into the father's eyes and of course knowing all the details from both attorney's - of course, I would be no judge.
I was curious of my feelings bec I have come to a point now 'on this planet' that I would IMAGINE that the father is going thru a living Hell. He either has been shown the model of abuse and rage in his family of origin or alcohol changes his chemistry so that he is temporarily 'out of control'. I feel SO sorry for this soul.
(Susan is probably rolling her eyes right now.)

And,yet...this is no excuse.

If there in the presence of this man and I were judge...with all the details.... I would hope that the details warranted that he be 'put away' for a number of years - not the full 32 --that he were to be placed in an anger management program and brought before panels to judge whether he was fit to be released under parole and tight supervision at first for example.

Now,perhaps some of you have read a post about Jenna's Law in NY. I knew Jenna -and she was violently murdered in Albany going on 2 years now - by a criminal released early bec of over crowding. That won't happen again.

So when I say this father should be placed in front of a panel to be judged whether he was fit to be released - I mean that deeply and profoundly. Under NO curcumstances should he be placed back into society if he is indeed a threat of any kind. IF that can not be guaranteed, if Ever possible, then he remains incarcerated.

Of course, if any of you know a little about me - Zelda's post was the most interesting to me. Because, of course, once a man,then a woman. The wife, now the brother. All forms to learn all things to eventually reach the realization of Divine Love.

For now,
Elaine

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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 03:02:06 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The thrill of the most horrific-4 the comatose
Message:
OR is it possible that the father was SO drunk, that when his wife was ACTUALLY the one to kill the child, that he only woke up to all this!? His wife who finally got her ultimate revenge on him for their ridiculous excuse of a marriage. Where they BOTH used and raped each other. Even the police report that you are basing 'the details' on, was written by people who were on the scene AFTER it hapened. Now we'll have the great fortune of hearing his NOBLE wife speak 'BEFORE' congress about a 'new law' in the child's name. We can all cry together. Then go back to being LOUSY listeners, bickering when we deliberately misunderstand each other. And the high school students are again inspired to 'shock' the adults into the kind of dialogue they hear the adults ENJOYING crying about, by topping the last bloodbath. Oh! yes! it's SUCH a mystery. NOT.

This sort of 'excitment' (besides selling advertising) only allows people to 'feel involved', and less stupid than news information that REALLY DID need their attention the year before-that MAY have actually (indirectly) kept this horror from happening.

How sick...it's so much more entertaining when there's blood. Especially a child's blood? Becuse it distracts from the MISERABLE compromised lives everyone settles for etc.

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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 07:24:08 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: Sounds reasonable to me....
Message:
....but then I appreciate raina for what she is.
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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 04:14:24 (GMT)
From: p
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: The thrill of the most horrific-4 the comatose
Message:
p
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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 04:44:35 (GMT)
From: q
Email: None
To: p
Subject: The thrill of the most horrific-4 the comatose
Message:
q
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Date: Thurs, May 11, 2000 at 23:59:05 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Elaine B.
Subject: My goodness - to all so far...
Message:
I think it was JW that pointed out we didn't know much ( I'll go back and see,sorry if I'm wrong.)Even if I gave every detail the media gave,We would not know all,would we,JW? Ever.

No, we wouldn't, and that's why asking what kind of sentence this guy should serve and playing some kind of sideline jury is useless. I'm saying you probably don't get a balanced, or complete, understanding from the media stories which focus on the lurid.

If there is some kind of public policy problem, like providing safety for children, that kind of discussion might make sense. But the media, if it's like other media, don't really discuss anything that can't be explained in a fashion to hold people with short attention spans, like Maharaji, for example. Most likely the media just sensationalizes it.

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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 01:31:09 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Come on, you really overstate things here
Message:
Joe,

You sound like you're really loaded for bear on this one. But I so much think you're wrong. People can indeed follow a story, the media does indeed usually get a large part of it out, espeically if they're following a court case, for example, and people can definitely form reasonable opinions about what should happen, even with the limited kinowledge available. Does that seem like a big waste of time for you? Fine, go read something else. But please give up this elitist bullshit, calling people stupid for showing an interest or the media venal for covering these stories. That's just not fair.

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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 05:57:58 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Come on Jim
Message:
Name calling isn't a discussion, Jim. Local TV news doesn't follow a case closely, they follow it superficially and repeat that endlessly. If you don't know that you haven't watched it.

Did you notice the coverage of the JFK jr. death? Endless coverage hour after hour when there was absolutely nothing to say because there wasn't any information. The point is the media does a terrible job on those sensational stories. And because there is only so much time, other important events don't get covered. It's not elitist Jim, it's just stating the way it is because the media is driven by ratings and not news.

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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 15:35:53 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: JW, I agree - example
Message:
So I had this friend -
the mother of the only blonde in a group (5) of mixed race youths that were accused of kicking to death a chap on a major street corner one Sat. evening. Might be 3-4 years ago, now.

She says to me - did you hear ANYwhere that NINETEEN people got on the stand yesterday to state that my son was not only NOT involved but STOPPED the kicking and later sat in the car talking to the victims FRIENDS!!! Waiting for the police to come.

Me, 'No.'

Right, they were so scared of racial tension in my community they sentenced the boy to like 5 years probation - on the condition HE LEAVE TOWN.
They REFUSED to drop the charges or even cover the TRUE day's events in court that imp. day in the paper or TV.

JW, we NEVER know the whole story.---Elaine

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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 15:48:14 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: What in the world is that supposed to mean?
Message:
Elaine,

If you have a point there you sure haven't made it clearly. But let me guess. The media first reported the attack but didn't cover the trial itself? Something like that? Because, if they had covered the trial, all that defense evidence would have surfaced. In fact, that's always a fun part of any trial's coverage, when the surprise defence (a/k/a 'defense') angle plays out (if there is one).

So what are you saying? They covered the trial or they didn't? What?

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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 16:12:11 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Lack of media coverage
Message:
Jim,
As unbelievable as it seems - no mention in any form of the media told the public that 19 people had verified the blonde's lack of involvement in the crime. That day's testimony was conveniently not told to the public. I swear to God.
HOW could that NOT have been reported? I don't know!!!
Sorry if I didn't make that clear.
Elaine
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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 16:25:28 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Lack of media coverage
Message:
So what you're saying -- apparently -- is that they didn't cover the trial at all? Just the original assault? Is that it? Because I can't imagine (i.e. I won't believe without some proof) that the press covered the trial but forgot to mention that entire defence case. Just doesn't happen in my experience.
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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 16:49:32 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Lack of media coverage
Message:
No,they DID cover the trail. That's how I even knew my friend's son was even involved. I saw her in the court room scan on TV. She had been so busy we hadn't talked. This was like first day of trail.

I KNOW - it sounds unbelievable Jim. I'm glad that hasn't been your experience. I swear that happened. Sad,but true.
Of course, you don't have to believe it. But, proof I couldn't give.

I have other cases where a friends have been on the jury every minute of a big trail - again murder in my community - and I see them during the trail - and they tell me things that aren't reported in the news. Gives me insight I wouldn't normally have had just being Joshephine Public.

Elaine

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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 17:09:30 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Lack of media coverage
Message:
You are right about the media being very hit and miss. I sometimes know of very big news that just sneaks through and is never picked up. Truth is though, because I do think the media sometimes expoits things like this it may be good. But yes, as anyone who has ever been a part of any story in a newspaper or on tv can tell you, very often there are factual errors in the stories.

Thanks for starting this thread Elaine I have found it interesting, though sometimes a little painful. Last evening I was outside gardening trying to ignore how badly I felt about what I said to Hal, wondering what was wrong with me that I take everything so seriously. I suppose though, it is better than not caring.

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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 22:08:04 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Lack of media coverage
Message:
Susan,
If you were out gardening and feeling how bad you felt about what you had said to Hal....there's nothing wrong with you.:)

Never ignore you're feelings - embrace and learn.

Hundreds of dollars after therapy,
Elaine

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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 14:31:52 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: No, YOU come on
Message:
Joe,

The name 'Chomsky' hasn't arisen in your aptly self-admitted 'rant' but it's apparent that he's your man on this. Okay, you want to talk about JFK Jr.'s death? Personally, I was bored with it and tuned out very early on. Where was the news? Perhaps more importantly, where was the angle? Really, who cares that much about a matinee-idol, good-looking son of an icon who really hadn't done anything world-class significant in his life? Not me, that's right.

But a lot of people did care, Joe. They cared because of his dad and maybe because of the love/ (hate?) thing with the Kennedy's. The point is they cared. The media didn't dictate that interest level, they responded to it. Could they have covered other stories? Oh yes, maybe Chairman Chomsky -- or you -- could have directed all of our attention spans a little more productively. Just call it a wild weekend or something. Okay?

I thought of you when I read this Onion parody the other day:

Civil Unrest In Sierra Leone Concerns NPR Listener

HANOVER, NH--A National Public Radio report on a rebel insurrection in the West African nation of Sierra Leone deeply concerned Hanover-area listener Jim Ellenson Monday. 'Apparently, the Sankoh-led Revolutionary United Front rebels are rapidly advancing on Freetown,' said Ellenson, listening to NPR while leafing through the latest issue of The Nation. 'Hopefully, the U.N. peacekeepers will be able to limit the movement of the RUF in the interior near Masiaka.' Ellenson said he plans to stay tuned to NPR for the latest on the crisis.

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Date: Thurs, May 11, 2000 at 23:56:52 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Oh and Way...
Message:
I hope that didn't seem too disconnected from my own thinking.

Love ya,Elaine

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Date: Thurs, May 11, 2000 at 21:08:38 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Elaine B.
Subject: Problem with the question.........
Message:
I think one of the major problems in this country is how these kinds of extreme cases get publicized, because they push all the buttons in people, sell newspapers and TV advertising, and everyone gets to play judge and jury from the sidelines, clicking their tongues at how awful it all is. I think it really sucks. It's nothing more than a seemingly more legitimate version of the Jerry Springer Show.

The fact is that almost nobody who just follows something like this in the media really knows what's going on in a case like that. It's disgusting how everyone is mesmerized by the lurid details, which may or may not have any basis in reality.

I actually feel sorry for anyone who is stupid enough, desperate enough, to watch local television news in any city in this country. It is nothing but sensational crap, with stories like this one being reported for days. It if bleeds, it leads. If it's child abuse or child murder, it sells lots of advertising. I think it's shameful. I have noticed now that if there isn't a fire, murder, or terrible car accident in THIS community, they import one from someplace else. Then there is some story about the newest use or harm of vitman C, an animal abuse and/or heart-touching story and then maybe something 'comical.' Why has the media been reduced to this.

If you want examples of how rotten the media is on this, just think of O.J. Simpson, Monica Lewinsky, and the John F. Kennedy Jr. death. Sorry for the rant, this just gets me.

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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 01:24:49 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Problem with your rant
Message:
Joe,

What the hell you talking about? People want to know what's happening, they want to know who hurt whom, who fucked over whom and who saved the kitten from the burning house on the hill. That's human nature and it sounds exceedingly pompous and unrealistic to click your tongue at how awful that is. It's 'people caring about people' in all the many connotations that term allows. No, the local murders and whatnot aren't political policy stories. But they sure are interesting on a certain level. Just like people are interesting on various levels. Sometimes you want to read Proust (theoretically) and sometimes you want to rock out a bit. And all the other similar analogies you can imagine.

And yes, Joe, O.J. and Monica were extremely interesting stories. No, not on all levels but on some. They had all sorts of neat elements like, for instance, in O.J. 's case, can America's darling, rich, handsome black athlete beat the system and, if so, how will he do it or, in Monica's, how in the world is the President of the United States going to finesse a sworn white lie and a major sexual embarrassment? And how will the U.S. Congress and population deal with it?

These are interesting stories because people are interesting.

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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 05:52:05 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You miss the point completely
Message:
You miss my point completely Jim. Of course people find it interesting, that's obvious. That's why the media covers it. My point is they call it NEWS, when it's not. It's a feature, or something else, but after the first 1000 times it's repeated and run, it isn't news and shouldn't be called that. Maybe it's better in Canada, but in the US it's the absolute pits.

Take the typical fire, explosion, gun death, car accident or other 'disaster' covered by local news. They are covered in the same forumlaic way each time. Showing pictures, and then sticking the microphone and TV camera in the face of some greiving and shocked victim and ask them how they feel. That's outrageous crap, Jim. It's disgraceful. Don't you recognize that? And when it's a child's abuse or murder, it isn't just covered, it's milked for all the mileage they can get, to the exlusion of all kinds of other stories and features that might actually be news.

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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 14:45:18 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: No, I got your point -- I disagree
Message:
Joe,

Of course it's news. It's always news and will be until we're completely inured to these things, hopefully never. And listen to you now! On the one hand, you complain that they don't give enough coverage to these stories for people to understand them fully, on the other you complain that they dwell overlong on them! Make up your mind, please.

And yes you did suggest that people are stupid for even wanting to know, follow or understand these stories. I don't know. To me, you got your local news, you got your state (or provincial level) news and you got your national / international news. Time and place for everything. Don't be such a snob.

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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 21:03:39 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: No, you still miss the point
Message:
Jim, it would help if you discussed what I was actually talking about and not what you wish I was talking about.

The story is news, it stops being news when it gets driven into the ground, and alot of what LOCAL NEWS covers isn't news. And repetition isn't additional coverage, it's just repetition, to the exclusion of a lot else that really should be covered as news.

This is particularly the case with some sensational story. Jim, now about CNN covering, live, as news, the Lorena Bobitt trial? You think that's news? She cut off her husband's penis and threw it into a field and CNN, and especially NEWS spent many hours on the story. That's now news, it's tabloid bullshit.

I am not criticizing all media, either. But I stand by my statement that it's stupid, really stupid, to rely on local television news to keep informed.

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Date: Sat, May 13, 2000 at 16:25:33 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: alll
Subject: Jeezuz, Jim
Message:
Get a grip man. You sound like some really weird reactionary kneejerk ex-cult member to me... So you got fucked over in this cult OK, fine and now you are so far over on the other side, with the 'authorities' that you don't realize how this is just the other side of the coin. You still crave authority to run your life. You need to read the guru papers again, boy. And get some fresh air..
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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 00:34:27 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: JW
Subject: Well said, Joe...
Message:
..and needed saying. (I didn't feel qualified from this side of the water to comment on the American justice system).

BTW: Susan, and every one else on that thread.. if you read this... Mothers who kill their recently born babies in England are not automatically classed as having mental / psychiatric problems. But it would probably be better if some of them were treated as sick rather than evil (IMO). Many stressed-beyond-their-wits-end mums DO go to prison who don't deserve to, but then again, others who deserve to don't.

Complex social and legal issues - which need to be treated on a case-by-case basis. I'd prefer nobody (least of all politicians or media men in trousers) to utter a word or commentary on any case until or unless they know the whole story in each case. (Or shut the fuck up... which they never will)

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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 18:05:07 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Oops, Susan and all...
Message:
In that last sentence I didn't mean anyone here should 'shut the fuck up'!:) I was just thinking of politicans and media people who exploit these cases for their own purposes. Sorry if gave any other impression!
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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 16:54:01 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: good to hear Nigel,
Message:
when I read it I was concerned. Because although I think that probably the vast majority of infanticide cases are related to real mental illness, certainly not all of them are. There really are people in this world who would kill a child for money, or just out of cruelty, one would hate to see them have a free pass because the baby was under one year of age. It certainly would say the life of a baby was of less value than that of an older child or adult.
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Date: Thurs, May 11, 2000 at 23:22:06 (GMT)
From: O
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Problem with the question.........
Message:
JW said:

>>> 'I think one of the major problems in this country is how these kinds of extreme cases get publicized, because they push all the buttons in people…'

>>>'It's disgusting how everyone is mesmerized by the lurid details, which may or may not have any basis in reality.'

>>>'If it's child abuse or child murder, it sells lots of advertising. I think it's shameful.'

Gee JW, you've just expressed the feelings most premies have about the reporting that gets done by the ex-premie media.

Thanks,I couldn't have expressed it any better myself.

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Date: Thurs, May 11, 2000 at 19:35:06 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Elaine B.
Subject: Question in my community
Message:
What do you want to know, Elaine, if we're still human now that we've told M to fuck himself and, for some of us, no longer practice K? My own personal belief about the criminal justice system is that is exists, in the manner that it does, because we're ignorant of how the criminal mind works, and how to treat it in a humane manner. Therefore, just throw the fuckers in a cage where they can't hurt anybody.

Hopefully, as science, yes, SCIENCE, learns more about the mind and how to treat it when it's ill, locking people in a cage, or worse, executing them, will be a thing of the past. But until then, the system as it stands is nothing more than a reflection of our own ignorance.

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Date: Thurs, May 11, 2000 at 17:48:38 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Elaine B.
Subject: There but for the grace of God........
Message:
Sorry hardliners but as a parent of two sons and without knowing the person at all, I have to say that leniant option would be the one I'd take. The guy is suffering beyond belief anyway. If true remorse is involved then I just couldn't punish this man for 32 years.

I sometimes went berserk with my son when he was 2/3 yrs old and if I'd happened to have had a few and was trying to enjoy a major sporting event I could have flipped.

I'm willing to bet that the hardliners on this will be men who haven't been involved in childrearing closely. Let's see.

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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 00:36:17 (GMT)
From: dv
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Well said, Hal.nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, May 11, 2000 at 23:12:11 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Support for parents (ot)
Message:
I think in this society parents get very little support, and hence these kinds of situations are more likely. In this country, our 'family values' support the idea that each family is an island unto itself, and has to succeed or fail on its own with almost no support from the community or the government. But since the kids are the most valuable resource, you would think we would be very supportive as a society, but we aren't.

Note that most of the people in poverty in this country are kids, that our public school system is poorly funded, that millions of kids don't even have healthcare, etc.,etc. I think kids are not valued in this country, and teenage kids are, in fact, demonized. No wonder so many are messed up.

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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 12:13:41 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: America America , land of the free....
Message:
As a European, it strikes me that the good ol' U. S . of A. is a very cruel and backward thinking country. Many things surprise me. Capital punishment doesn't exist in so many countries anymore but is applauded over there. The prison systems seem appauling to us. The Christian evangelists seem to me to be a bunch of fascists.Generally for such a self proclaimed Christian country the compassion level seems extremely low.

I think America could really learn some real human values from for example a countries like Holland , Denmark , and many other European countries. Your junk food, materialistic society is a very uncaring place to live on this planet. A little tolerance and understanding wouldn't go amiss would it? Some of the American exes here seem a little on the fascist extreme to me.

Hal

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Date: Thurs, May 11, 2000 at 22:19:07 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Female mother of three...myself
Message:
hardliner too.

I am very disturbed you can relate to this guy in any way. Frankly, I wouldn't want you around my child.

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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 12:29:58 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Susan I don't condone the action.....
Message:
But at what age do human beings stop deserving compassion? That three year old will become a twenty year old and may do some terrible things. Will you deny your own child compassion if they make mistakes as they get older?

You say something to me like you wouldn't want me around your child? How can you say something like that to someone you don't know? You base a statement like that on the fact that I would attempt to put myself in someone else's shoes and try and understand them? God I hope you don't ever do anything that anyone could ever judge you for. I hope that if you ever fucked up big time that someone would show you some love and understanding.

One time I saw on this site something about M being the antichrist. Do you know what anti- christ is?

Anti forgiveness, love, compassion, tolerance , understanding.

Are you really proud to be full of those things?

Hal

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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 21:14:50 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Hal/Susan
Subject: shaken baby syndrome, etc.
Message:
It is frightening that Shaken baby syndrome is the leading cause of death and disability of babies , and the perpetrator usually has no criminal record, but is an inexperienced parent who is frustrated and overwhelmed that they can't calm their baby.With shaken baby syndrome, I can honestly say I do say to myself 'where but for the grace of God'...I DO understand that young English aupairs in Virginia who did it, she was isolated all day, separated from her loved ones, totally inexperienced and caring for an infant???? I am so glad COngress changed some of the aupair regulations (on the age of the infant, I think the minimum age of babies that can be cared for by aupairs here is now 7 months...) (for the non-Americans on the forum, 'aupair' here in the U.S. is a specific program regulated by Congress)

But this case sounds very different to me, a guy smearing feces in his baby's face, and then smacking him to the floor. If the story is true, he just sounds like a mean bastard to me. I say lock him up for life. Thing is he'll be out in a few years. And maybe parenting again. I agree with Susan that some people are just evil. There was a case like that in my town, these parents tied their kid up to a bed and forced him to eat horrible stuff, he was kept like an animal. He is with a foster family now. How can I possibly relate to that?? I spanked my kid a few times, and am not always a perfect parent but tying a kid up like an animal?????

I agree that children are not valued, but I think it goes back to the family. Back to parents being educated about what being a parent really entails, and being responsible about reproducing. Unfortunately, people reproduce who have no business being parents, and have all kinds of reasons for wanting babies that have nothing to do with the child's welfare.

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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 12:41:31 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: I don't know about the guy's background , maybe he
Message:
is a monster who needs to be punished for a long time. I was speaking as someone who doesn't know what that guy is like and I also assumed it was a one off mistake he made. In that case I would have much more compassion than if he was some evil repeat abuser.

Hal the softie.

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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 16:36:30 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: I don't know about the guy's background , maybe he
Message:
Dear Hal,

I must confess that I am really a total softy. I felt badly all evening about the ' I do not want you around my child comment'. I could not stand how that could have made you feel. Even though I have neer met you.

But recall, we had read that this man had become enraged at a two year old, while drinking, rubbed the child's feces in his face and fractured hius skull him. Then, it appears, delayed seeking medical attention until he was dead for fear of being punished.

Hal, this isn't the sort of thing most people have to worry they might do. And you said that with your two year old you lost it. What did that mean? Did that mean you beat the child? I had no idea what it meant. And, you seemed to say that if you had been drinking, and watching sports, and had a two year old ( and we all know how stressful this age child can be ) you could see yourself losing it? Hal, if you really could see yourself doing something like this man, who would want you to babysit for them?

I frankly have a hard time believing you really could be like this man. God, I hope not.

Just last week, I was in a situation where I had to face a man whose actions had caused injury to his entire family, nearly killed them. He had made serious, serious mistakes. And I showed him nothing but compassion. It was not the time for lectures, or punishment, and it would have only served to further devastate this devastated family. His actions were not however, cruel like this story.

The truth is, though I may not want to say it, I do see having saddness for victims of child abuse who grow up to pass on the terrible parenting they learned as children. But, I really am so much more an advocate of the child. On this board, there are many people who were abused as children, and many many people grow up in terrible homes and become good people. I am not saying that everyone can do that. But I do feel we as a society cannot tolerate, excuse, or ignore cruelty and brutality to children. Children still are not properly protected. They still have so few rights as compared to parents. I just can't feel that sad for this man. I feel very sad for his son.

If I hurt your feelings, I am sorry. But please read what you wrote. If you really have that sort of trouble with anger that you think something like this could 'happen' to you, than really you need help.

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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 16:56:52 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Susan
Message:
Oh, I'm so glad you guys might come to an understanding.
Hal, seems so nice.

It is so troubling - I also have a huge part of me that wants to have absolutely no mercy towards this man.
Then the other side has it's say in my head - that is the forgiving or at least understanding part of the reincarnation drama that goes on eternally. That's why I say I feel so sorry for this troubled soul.

At the same time - I want to imprison him for LIFE - forget 32 years.

It's no fun being me.
Elaine

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Date: Sat, May 13, 2000 at 12:28:39 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: You are not So unique....
Message:
...we all feel the same dilemas.

Reincarnation?

It is so troubling - I also have a huge part of me that wants to have absolutely no mercy towards this man.
Then the other side has it's say in my head - that is the forgiving or at least understanding part of the reincarnation drama that goes on eternally. That's why I say I feel so sorry for this troubled soul.

Can you explain what do you mean by this?

Thanks

SB

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Date: Sat, May 13, 2000 at 16:52:25 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: SB/Helen Combined
Subject: SB/Helen
Message:
Oh boy,
Well,I'm no authority on reincarnation. I'm not even an authority on my own thinking on this matter.:)

I've been reading MANY books of late - and actually the name'new age' I never consider using - I guess bec some of the authors are from the 20's-60's. I don't think anything is really 'new under the sun.' But, I understand the usage.

As far as explaining your quote of mine ,SB...
I don't presume I understand the workings of Karma...so almost by saying that, I'm saying ...I feel sorry for what this confused soul (that father)will have to 'go through' in his process.Which may include eons of guilt and shame and remorse before he is even ready and willing and knowledgable enough that he'll chose to come back into this Earth plane to 'Pay-back' his debt to his son .... or 'balance the scales' with his son.

My lack of conviction to 'fry the bastard' comes from my compassion of a blinded, confused, stunted soul,let's say.

Do I hate a person because they are ignorant, because they have a 'sickness' of the brain or heart due to countless abuses.

My mother is a narcissist. It is so unbelievable - you would NOT believe. I'll spare you examples. She cares only for herself and her world - since my childhood til now. Hasn't changed.
This naturally caused me MUCH distress in my younger years.
Tantrums,buttons pushed,scenes on my part.

But,now I've come to understand - She Can't Help It.
She really can't - this is the way her synapses were wired when she was in the crib. The abuse and neglect - or let's just say the messages she received when developing -were not healthy.

So now, instead of scenes and hurt feelings dredged up when I'm with her - I'm filled with understanding and compassion.

SB,I may not have answered your ques. exactly - it was a flow. If you want to be more precise in what you were driving at try me again.

And Helen,yes,I saw 'Dead..'Wonderful true movie.

Now,in the cases of 'rape,murder,etc.' as you brought up.
Actually, I don't think we are CAPABLE of judging. Because we do not have the total picture. That is not to say, we shouldn't protect society from sick minded people/souls.
But in the end - I believe in my heart and soul - only God can be the judge. And I believe he judges fairly and compassionatly - (He has too if He expects us to want to be with Him and join into the Eternal Bliss the He is... HA... but, I digress :)}

I love that you are hearing Dr Laura.

As far as justice. Oh boy, you know what?... we can lock 'em up in our prisons - but I can guarantee you - justice will always be done. And to a tee.In a higher place.

St. Terese of Lisieux heard of a horrible murderer in prison about to be quillotined - he had NO remorse (c.1880's?). Instead of condemning this criminal - she prayed for his soul. She couldn't let him die 'unsaved,unrepentent and spend eternity in Hell without knowing Our Lord'. And so she prayed for him.
Just before he was to have the blade drop - he asked for a crucifix and he kissed it. To Terese her prayers had been answered.This was her sign.

I mean it chokes me up. That I could only be so compassionate.
I believe as a judge signs the decree to execute a prisoner - he can have compassion still in his heart.

I've gone on too too long. See you later, Elaine

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Date: Sun, May 14, 2000 at 04:35:44 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: SB/Helen
Message:
What if there aren't eons of shame and remorse for a murderer? What if he is just a mean bastard who shouldn't be on the streets to murder again. See I don't think you understand the criminal mind.

And I am not sure why you are focusing so much on having compassion for a murderer, and not the one who was killed. Are you trying to show how compassionate you are? Are you trying to prove something? I don't know, I just don't get it.

I remember feeling sorry for Richard Nixon when I was an adolescent. Just seeing his hang dog face, on the tv, and my dad yelling about what a horse's ass he was! But now I see he never deserved my compassion. He was a horse's ass! He took a sacred trust and did criminal things with it, he was a bastard!

Anyway, I don't have a problem being black and white about some of these things. I used to want to love everyone in my premie days--that's so silly to me now.

As far as what your mom did to you, that is what children who become adults have to do, have to overcome whatever childhood traumas they were subject to. And face it and grow up. It is not the same as murdering someone, however much your mother screwed you up.

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Date: Sun, May 14, 2000 at 16:52:50 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Helen -to explain better
Message:
Helen,
And just to say - I really don't focus so much on compassion for the criminal - it just seems to answer questions of me - I am.
Otherwise, it would have been one thought - and over.

It's a beautiful day here - have a nice one yourself.
Elaine

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Date: Sun, May 14, 2000 at 05:30:37 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Sorry to be so bitchy, Elaine
Message:
God Elaine, I had to get back up out of bed to apologize to you for writing such a mean post. I think you just push my buttons. I must be projecting or something. The days when I was trying to be the perfect spiritual devotee were the worst most horrible days of my life. It wasn't just Maharaji, I had a guru before that, and in between the first guru and M I lived in a Christian community where I also strove to be perfect, the perfect devotee in God's eyes, so full of divine love and compassion.

Then I learned that I didn't have to BE God. I could let God be God, and I could be a human being, with all my faults and judgements, etc. I wouldn't go to hell for it. It was like I was trying to manipulate God into loving me by being so wonderful all the time.

You might be very happy.You sound like a a kind person. But the fact that you are trying to love everyone and make nice with everyone seems like you are overcompensating for something. Either that or you are a saint!

Anyway, don't let my rantings get you down. I have PMS and just spent the day with my mother-in-law!!! I prefer my own narcissistic mother who at least is interesting! But hopefully God will forgive me for being frustrated with her!

Seriously, does God forgive murderers? Did God forgive Nixon? God might, but do I have to also, just because there might be a loving forgiving Father out there who loves us all?? Or is it okay to just disapprove of someone who has done really crappy things like taken another's life or screwed up the trust of a nation??? It's up to them, their own soul whether they repent, make amends, and are forgiven by GOD. I don't have to be God and automatically love them because God might. Now do they deserve a fair trial? Of course! Does a murderer deserve to die? That's a tricky one. I can't say I would ever be comfortable with the death penalty because I don't think the state should be in the business of killing people. I also think there is so much injustice in the way the death penalty is meted out, with black men in the south being executed statistically in such greater numbers. But should a vicious murderer get a life sentence?--yeah.

So would you not serve on a jury because you don't beleive in judgment??

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Date: Sun, May 14, 2000 at 17:15:22 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Helen - to explain more
Message:
Your ' either that or you're a saint' comment...

Just wanted to say - I have been changing so dramatically in the past 2-3 months from all my reading greats books that friends in a funny way say to me 'Who's this?'. I'm laughing and joking around more, I can feel my whole aura has changed.
I don't just smile briefly at cashiers anymore - I actually look deeply at them and smile deeper or something. Still breifly tho...otherwise I might seem like a Moonie .

The change has been so huge and wonderful that I've thought I should get my affairs together - this 'Quickenng'--has been so fast I thought maybe God is readying my spirit to leave this body or something. I just thought it was a possibility.
I actually...for a second... was glad I had told two friends my Elaine name so that they could write you all,just in case something 'happened' to me.

And that was a good ques. I didn't get to. I don't like skipping ques - they might have been very imp. to someone and they might feel alittle ignored. About being on a jury.
Never thought of it - but I doubt I'd ever get past the preliminary questions - neither side would want a nut like me.

Got a new book yesterday I started - Sylvia Browne's 'God,Creation,and the Tools for Life' seems alittle different may not buy everything in the book,but here's a quote you might like:

'I have always believed that everyone,no matter what their beliefs,should take with them what they need or want, and leave the rest. Only occultism is hidden,secretive,and controlling; you will find none of that in these writings.'

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Date: Sun, May 14, 2000 at 22:09:05 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Helen - to explain more
Message:
Sorry Elaine that quote didn't do anything for me. What does it mean? To be stripped down to life's essentials?

I would think that what you are experiencing (wanting to look deep into cashiers' eyes etc) would want you to have more time on earth in which to live. Why do you take it as a sign that your death is immiment that you are feeling happy? I don't understand, but it ain't no biggie

helen
Million Mom Marched Out

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Date: Sun, May 14, 2000 at 07:09:12 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Sorry to be so bitchy, Elaine
Message:
Helen,
You are so sweet. I hope you know that.

Elaine

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Date: Sun, May 14, 2000 at 14:51:51 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Thanks (nt)
Message:
jfkjsk
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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 21:43:49 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: your compassion is wrongly placed, IMO
Message:
Hi Elaine
Well I don't have this sort of conflict in my mind and I think you are wasting your compassion on this man.

Helen

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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 22:28:48 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: There is never a wrong place for compassion (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 21:50:07 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: your compassion is wrongly placed, IMO
Message:
Elaine
Is anything beyond compassion in your mind? I think the new age idea that all behavior is neither good nor bad because we're all on the karmic wheel of life is a big crock. You have to judge, we have to judge. Otherwise everything is acceptable.
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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 22:40:36 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: This deserves it's own thread...
Message:
Helen,
What a wonderful question.May I get ready for my Fri. night.

I will be back for this most deserving response.

However,quickly,there are certainly things that are 'bad'.Not all things are 'good' in the new age sense - tho I'm not authorized as a spokesman.

This is certainly a deep question and maybe Stonor or others could also respond for now,sorry.

Also, compassion is a very deep word. It doesn't mean 'condoning'or'sanctioning'.
Compassion is ....oh my gosh ...this is so profoundly deep...
I have to go.
Thank you for giving me homework for the evening (secretly in my own mind to ponder).

Elaine

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Date: Sat, May 13, 2000 at 02:50:57 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: This deserves it's own thread...
Message:
You may have read a post from me where I have mentioned Dr. laura, the radio personality. Although she is too aggressive at times, and a fundamentalist, listening to her views on forgiveness and compassion has made me engage in the same kind of pondering that you speak of. She is an Orthodox Jew and religious Jews ponder questions like this a lot. That is why I respect them so much.

She talks about how we should have compassion for the weak first, the weak and the ones who cannot speak, e.g. children,the elderly, those who have been wronged (victims of crime) etc. Unfortunately what has happened with new age thinking is that now everyone is deserving of forgiveness and compassion.

But should everything be forgiven? If everything is forgiven where is the justice for the victims? Dr. Laura's convictions certainly revolve around her belief that there is a God of justice who will hold us accountable in the end. I am not so sure about that, but I prefer her idea of God, which actually holds some RULES for human behavior, than the new age idea that we are all evolving consciousness, ever turning on the wheel of life.

The new age idea is it's all a play and not really real, I kill my mother in this life, well no matter, because I will be her in my next life and justice will be worked out. It makes people lazy IMO. If everything is a passing illusion, then there is no right or wrong assigned to behavior. This is bad IMO.

In cases of horrible crimes against the weak (rape, murder, etc) I think we have to judge. Of course we have to judge. I think probably you are such a kind-hearted person that you cannot imagine someone not being deserving of your compassion. But some people aren't. They are just bad, evil people. I think it is naive to think otherwise.

Did you see the film 'Dead Man Walking'? I highly recommend it. That nun, Sister Helen (played by Susan Sarandan) stuck by that murderer, because she was worried about his soul, she wanted him to have some remorse for his sin,she just kept cutting through all his crap until in the end he apologizes for what he did and shows true remorse (as he is being executed). Now that kind of compassion for a murderer is a kind that I can respect but not this airy fairy sort of stuff. It's a great movie, and shows all sides of the story.

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Date: Thurs, May 11, 2000 at 17:45:26 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Elaine B.
Subject: Question in my community
Message:
Hi Elaine -
That is an awful story - it makes me sick.

It's VERY clear that the guy in the story is incredibly dangerous when he's been drinking. Not sure if he acts the same way when he's not drinking, but he probably has the same feelings, even if he doesn't act on them. I also know that even incidents like this won't stop alcoholics from drinking, and I am not sure if Antabuse would work unless it was very closely supervised.

It sounds like the guy was probably abused himself as a child - but this is absolutely NO excuse for abusing others, since we all have the responsibility and capability to break the cycle of abuse in our own lives. I would be afraid to let this guy be around young children ever again, especially his own children (if he has others). And how could he be prevented from HAVING more children?

However, I am not good at making those kinds of decisions, especially without full information. (For example, the wife's complicity is not clear at all from the facts you gave.) So I don't know what I'd do - these are just some thoughts.

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Thurs, May 11, 2000 at 15:37:34 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Elaine B.
Subject: Question in my community
Message:
Elaine B,

Interesting question.

I would never agree to be on a jury in America. The faults of the system upset me too much. However, to answer your question, I would like to see the child killer in the case you site get all 32 years, and the mother should be held liable as well, with a long prison sentence.

My city also saw an exceptionally horrendous case last year. Three brothers, identical triplets about 8 years old (extremely adorable looking), were abused for years while the child welfare system looked on. Two of the brothers finally died of malnutrition. They had been locked in closets without food for long periods of time, arriving at school now and then totally and obviously emaciated. Is there any greater shame for a community?! Those among us who could do such things should be put away forever, with no thought of how to possibly 'rehabilitate' them.

By the way, Elaine B, I found something else interesting in your post. You say: 'I was curious deeply as to what I thought...' Did you mean that? Forgive me, but when you put it that way it sounds like you are not just trying to formulate a reasoned opinion about a complex issue, but more generally disconnected from your own thinking. Brings up the on-topic question about whether premies give up too much of their own judgemental thinking. Afterall, following Mr. Rawat is absurd on a logical basis.

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Date: Thurs, May 11, 2000 at 22:53:28 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Way
Subject: Question in my community
Message:
There is no logical reason why roses should smell so nice, either - is there, now?
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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 01:45:32 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: yes, there is....
Message:
I learned it in either my chemistry or physiology class. You actually can explain why things smell 'good' to humans.
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Date: Thurs, May 11, 2000 at 15:33:02 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Elaine B.
Subject: Sorry defense attorneys (ot)
Message:
put him away forever. Put him away where people will do them same to him he did to him poor son. I have a two year old. God that makes me sick.

Also, in this case, what about the mom who wasn't protecting her baby from this monster?

another OT...I just read in England that maternal infanticide is always considered mental illness, not criminal. This is because it is considered to be a manifestation of postpartum depression/psychosis. Though I do agree it could be legitimate and correct to treat it as illness, there ARE mothers who are simply socipaths. For instance, what if a mother were to murder her child for greed ( insurance money? ) or just out of cruelty ( like the above man ) would she be protected by the postpartum depression defense ? What if, like Susan Smith, she pushed her kids into a lake because she had a new boyfriend who really found the kids a bummer. That isn't postpartum depression, that is evil.

Have at me.

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Date: Thurs, May 11, 2000 at 17:07:14 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: fry the fucker...wife--life (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 03:17:57 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: See Gerry! You're already thinking 'bacon! bacon!'
Message:
bacon!
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Date: Thurs, May 11, 2000 at 21:28:35 (GMT)
From: Dr C Barnard
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Meet GerRy....The only living heart donor .nt
Message:
jester
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Date: Thurs, May 11, 2000 at 22:25:16 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Dr C Barnard
Subject: I'm with Gerry my compassion is for the two year
Message:
old.

And sadly, stories like this are NOT unusual.

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Date: Thurs, May 11, 2000 at 23:08:22 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Susan?
Message:
How does capital punishment of the father help the two year old, and how is it compassionate?

If all the stuff is true about this guy, then he is a danger to society and should be locked up until it can be shown he is no longer a danger.

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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 01:42:58 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Susan?
Message:
Joe, and all my beloved friends,

See what I do not get at all is that we fight to save the life of someone who brutalized and killed a child, but, and I am sorry, but I have to say it, the life of a baby who is still inside his mom is okay to kill even though he or she is a complete innocent. How does this work logically?

No, I do not think it helps the two year old to kill the guy. Probably, locking him up does just as well, if it really is forever.

But I find both liberals and conservatives so inconsistant.

What if this man had beat his wife who was pregnant in the same manner and had killed the fetus. Not murder? What if she was at her due date?

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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 06:07:19 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Susan?
Message:
Susan, I think if our compassion is with the child, then we should be doing everything to prevent child abuse and child murder from happening in the first place. We should also see that kids aren't living in poverty, have health care, decent schools and the rest. Really, it's too late for that poor kid. It's a terrible tragedy, but it isn't helped in any way by killing the perpetrator. I agree that locking him up is appropriate, for me, not as a punishment, but to keep him away from other victims, and to prevent him doing anything like that again.

I personally think we have to get away from this idea that parents own their kids. I know there is all this hatred of the government and that it meddles in families, and all the rest, but I'm really in favor of removing kids from families or parents when there are signs of abuse, and also requiring treatment and counseling for parents who are abusers. There is so much child abuse, most of which is never reported or even known about. We only hear about the worst cases. My point is there is a big 'family values' idea in this country, saying the family is this sacred institution that always knows what is best for kids. Well, that isn't always true. Probably not true more often than we might think.

I also worked with abused kids. It wasn't the physical abuse. They just had this rage inside of them that was going to make it very hard for them ever to function in society. It's very sad, and we ought to be doing more to prevent it in the first place, not just laying on punishment after it happens.

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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 01:56:29 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: also...
Message:
recall, that I have seen abused kids with my own eyes. That I have had the misfortune of sending babies home with abusive parents because the law doesn't protect these kids so well. Recall that for a much longer part of my life than I was a premie I have spent in a job where the whole goal is to help babies come into the world safely and support families. This stuff is real and very emotional for me. It is not abstract at all. And lots of horrible things go on that get no press at all. I would bet for every case like that there are many others where the story never gets out.

I do not have compassion for a man who got drunk, rubbed feces in a two year olds face and killed him. No, I don't. Not a bit. I am not saying I would stone him to death. But I feel no sadness for him. My sadness is with the child only.

There but for the grace of God go I? No. This is not like that.

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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 06:15:37 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: I agree with you
Message:
We have a society that doesn't really value kids. As a result, we don't have good laws and other measures to protect kids from their own parents who abuse them. I agree, as I said above, that we really ought to change that. But again, the reason we don't is this idea that kids are the chattel of their parents and that the state has NO RIGHT to interfered in the 'family.' I think that until that changes, like you said, abused kids get returned to abusive parents.
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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 16:43:05 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: true
Message:
I am not sure how we can fix these laws but the focus of Child Protective Services on restoring the family seems to so many times go too far.

We need to support families. But we need to also recognize that reproduction is not the sole province of the sane, the kind and the good. The crazy, the mean and the evil reproduce just as well, if not better, than the rest of us. These children need some mechanism by which they can be can be protected. Hopefully, before someone rubs feces in the face of a two year old who needs a diaper change and then kills him.

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Date: Thurs, May 11, 2000 at 20:09:16 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: thread
Subject: Compassionate confinement to process guilt
Message:
Even if he is remorseful and had a bad past-unless he is in a controlled situation he will not be able to handle his own guilt-let alone process how to go on.
I think 30 years is not enough to go through a process.
So in a way I see a 30 year sentence as bieng humane-if he can be helped to feel true guilt/shame and also true forgivness for himself. Of course this would not happen in our justice system.

but overall- I think sport and alchohol are products of our sick society. Spectator sport as a pursuit of virtual power and alchohol as warped power.

But I am one of those that view the 2000 version of both of these vices as by-products of corrupted womens roles.
Ie if women had a more effective role in society, the effect would be that men would not feel the need to be so bizarre in their leisure pursuits.

Having said that, I also believe in reincarnaton and that the women of today were men in the past and so the responsibiity is not exclusively on men and women as usually percieved.

Trixie

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Date: Thurs, May 11, 2000 at 23:06:42 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: What does this mean???
Message:
Having said that, I also believe in reincarnaton and that the women of today were men in the past and so the responsibiity is not exclusively on men and women as usually percieved.

Sorry, this doesn't make much sense. What does this mean?

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Date: Thurs, May 11, 2000 at 21:37:38 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: Compassionate confinement to process guilt
Message:
Hi Zelda!

I really appreciate this post of yours, and I agree with much of it.

I think sport and alchohol are products of our sick society. Spectator sport as a pursuit of virtual power and alchohol as warped power.

These are virtually global and ancient, but certainly the obsession with these and other 'highs' are real symptoms of what's gone wrong with humanity in general. And I've always (20+ years) believed that if women's roles have been corrupted, so have men's.

But where did you hear that 'the women of today were men in the past. ' I always understood that it went both ways, but I have read something strangely parallel to what you wrote, so I'm curious. You know where to reach me. I don't like posting here much.

Stonor

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Date: Thurs, May 11, 2000 at 20:44:07 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: Compassionate confinement to process guilt
Message:
Having said that, I also believe in reincarnaton and that the women of today were men in the past and so the responsibiity is not exclusively on men and women as usually percieved.

Is this a joke, Trixie? Am I supposed to be laughing right about now? You should use more emoticons so people can tell if you're joking or not.

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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 07:25:50 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Compassionate confinement to process guilt
Message:
Yeesh
I guess I have to explain myself.
So this is what I believe to be the case- and I know some streams of philosophy that hold this view.
The thought is not the usual view of reincarntion-but more that a person alternates as a male and female. Except in certian cases, usually with very developed people, when they may be one sex for a few births to complete a certain task in a certain way.

What I have said in my post is defensive in a way. I get impatient with womens libbers who blame the 'men' for ills that run very deep in society. So this outlook I have just describes takes the mickey out of the antagonistic view towards men- and basically allocates some of the responsibilty to us women.
IE- if the women today blame the war machine for ruining the society or the political machine for corrupting society- this line of thought I adhere to puts the blame back on the women because they were men themselves (and therefore part of the problem) - in the last incarnation.
So for instance- we women today may have been the crusaders of yesteryear.

Now gang-this looks simplistic on the screen and trite and all of that.
whoa I think I have to go now!
(scurry)

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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 17:08:43 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: 'isms' create schisms
Message:
The problem is in ours, and many other CULTures, IMO, not with either sex in particular. Which is why I dislike stereotypical 'terms of endearment,' 'typing', judging of men/women, and over-generalizations etc., and why I prefer to emphasize human beings rather than men, women or children. The root of human problems always seem to come down to us/them.

Stonor

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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 17:31:58 (GMT)
From: zelda
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: 'isms' create schisms
Message:
ditto
but
youve got mail
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Date: Thurs, May 11, 2000 at 13:47:06 (GMT)
From: Occasional Mole
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The Hamster's schedule ....
Message:
NORTH AMERICAN EVENTS
April, May and June 2000
Santa Monica - Miami Beach - Boston - Toronto - Alexandria, VA

Maharaji has accepted invitations to speak at six events in April, May and June 2000, for people who have received the techniques of Knowledge.

These events are designed to be intimate gatherings. You are asked to attend only one event, in the city closest to where you live. Your cooperation will aIlow each person an opportunity to attend one of these events.

Entry Pass: Because these events are only for people with Knowledge, you wil! be asked to show an Entry Pass verifying that you have received the techniques. These passes can be obtained at the event venue:
4:00 pm - 8:00 pm on the day before the event, and
beginning at 8:00 am on the event day. Please arrive as close to 8:00 am as you are able.

General Information:
AIl of the events will begin at 10:00 am, with a second session in the affernoon.
You must reserve your seat in advance to attend one of these events. Seats are assigned randomly.
Fax Seating & Translation Reservation Form using the appropriate form for the event you want to attend. (Please note: there are different forms for each event and different fax numbers for each city.) A seating reservation fee is requested, but not mandatory.

Contributions: The reservation fee covers less than 30% of the event costs. AdditionaI contributions are needed and greatly appreciated. Contributions to support these events as well as upcoming Knowledge Sessions can be included with your seating reservation form and can aIso be made at the event.

Santa Monica, California Tuesday, April 25, 2000 Santa Monica Civic Auditorium, 1855 Main Street (near Pico)
Translation Available: Gujarati, Hindi, Mandarin and Spanish
Reservations: Fax form to 818-707-6374 April 19-21 10 am-1O pm, PDT. Because of the short notice of this event, no confirmations of seat reservations will be made for this event. You must reserve your seat in advance to attend this event.
After faxing ends: CaIl 818-707-6384 Saturday & Sunday, April 22 & 23 from noon to 5 pm and Monday, April 24, 9 am - Noon PDT to find out if there are any seats available. Seat Assignment - pick up in person:
Sunday, April 23 11 am - 2 pm Westlake video hall, 2500 Townsgate, Suite H
Monday, April 24 4 pm - 8 pm Santa Monica Civic Auditorium, East Hall
If you cannot come at one of these times, seat assignments and entry passes will aIso be available beginning at 8 am the morning of the event at the venue. Please arrive as close to 8 am as you are able.

Miami Beach, Florida Thursday, May 4, 2000
Radisson Deauville Resort, Napoleon Ballroom, 6701 Collins Avenue
Translation Available: Spanish
Reservations: Fax form to 818-707-6370 April19-29 10am-10pm PDT
After April 29: Call: 818-707-6384 to find out if there are any seats available at this or other events.
A buffet lunch is included in the suggested reservation fee of $45 for Miami. Participating in this luncheon will greatly help offset the costs of the venue rental for this event.

Miami Beach, Florida Saturday, May 6, 2000
Radisson Deauville Resort, Napoleon Ballroom, 6701 Collins Avenue
Translation Available: Gujarati and Spanish
Reservations: Fax form to 818-707-6370 April 19 - May 1 10 am-10 pm, PDT
After May 1: Call 818-707-6384 to find out if there are any seats available at this or other events.
A buffet lunch is included in the suggested reservation fee of $45 for Miami. Participating
in this luncheon will greatly help offset the costs of the venue rental for this event.

Boston, Massachusetts Monday, June 12, 2000
Copley Theatre, 224 Clarendon Street
Translation Available: Spanish
Reservations: Fax form to 818-707-6372 April 19 - June 5 10 am -10 pm, PDT
or mail to the address on the form
After June 5: Call 818-707-6384 to find out if there are any seats available at this or other events.

Toronto, Canada Wednesday, June 14, 2000 Metro Toronto Convention Center, John Bassett Theatre, 255 Front Street West
Translation Available: French and Tamil
Reservations: Fax form to 514-381-9265 April 19 - June 7 24 hours a day until hall is full, or mail to the address on the form
After June 7: Call 514-381-8336 to find out if there are any seats available at this or other events.

Alexandria, Virginia (near Washington DC) Sunday, June 18, 2000 Hilton Alexandria Mark Center, Plaza Baliroom, 5000 Seminary Road
Translation Available: Hindi and Spanish
Reservations: Fax form to 818-707-6373 April 19 - June 11 10 am -10 pm, PDT or mail to the address on the form
After June 11: Call 818-707-6384 to find out if there are any seats available at this or other events.

Reservation Forms: Fill out your form completely and legibly using black ink. Each form has a space for two individuals to register. For groups of more than two who wish to be seated together, please use additional forms. Label each form with page numbers.

Reservation for only One event: You are asked to reserve a seat for only one event, to allow each person an opportunity to attend.

Special Needs: Indicate any special needs on your reservation form.

Translation: may be provided in languages other than those listed. Clearly request additional translation language needed on your reservation form. If possible, your request will be accommodated.

When vour fax does not go through: Fax lines may sometimes be busy. However, when a hall is fully booked, the fax line for that event will no longer accept faxes. In this case, you may call the following numbers for information on remaining availability at other events: In the U.S. call 818-707-6384 in Canada call 514-381-8336

Seat Confirmation: will be sent by fax, e-mail or mail for all events except Santa Monica.
For US events, if you have not received a confirmation three days prior to the event, e-mail to EVSeating@aol.com or call 818-707-6374 between 8 pm -11 pm EDT to confirm your reservation.
For Toronto event, if you have not received a confirmation by June 7, call 514-381-8336 June 8 -10 between 6:30 - 9 pm EDT to confirm your reservation.

To cancel a reservation: For US events, please email to EVSeating@aol.com or fax 818-7076370, with your name and the event you had registered to attend. For Toronto event, please fax your cancellation to 514-381-9265.

Hotel and Specific City Information: Elan Vital rates for hotels and other information specific to each city will be available as soon as it is confirmed.

Information & Forms by Fax-On-Request: This complete information packet about these North American Events, including all reservation forms, is available through Fax-On-Request. From a fax machine, dial 918-222-7358 and follow the recorded instructions.

Please stay in touch wIth the National Information Line for changes or cancellations to the scheduled events. In the US call 818-889-0500. In Canada call 514-381-9071.

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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 13:58:12 (GMT)
From: Cultbuster UK
Email: None
To: Occasional Mole
Subject: Maharaji and the Cops
Message:
Pity he's not coming to the UK yet, so we can let the police know. In his position as head of an organization which has had at least one of its officials using his position to indulge in child abuse, he could be legally liable, and may be able to help them in their inquiries.

Cultbuster UK

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Date: Thurs, May 11, 2000 at 21:25:53 (GMT)
From: Angry
Email: None
To: Occasional Mole
Subject: Sounds like a nice, folksey CULT gathering(NT)
Message:
skunk
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Date: Thurs, May 11, 2000 at 14:36:13 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: Occasional Mole
Subject: for people who have received the techniques
Message:
Hey, I've received the techniques of knowledge, OK, so it was over the internet. Can I go listen to M?
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Date: Thurs, May 11, 2000 at 15:03:07 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: jondon
Subject: Yes
Message:
You just have to get someone to recognize you. Maybe someone could give you help.
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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 01:43:43 (GMT)
From: Sam
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: confused
Message:
I've just discovered all this stuff and stopped having belief in M after 22 years- I want some feedback from people who used to practice then stopped.
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Date: Sat, May 13, 2000 at 15:58:18 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Sam
Subject: Have you ever come to the right place .nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 15:00:59 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Sam
Subject: confused? Is the same story, really....
Message:
I received K because on the 70's and left last year. The guru sucks! I thought then that 'somebody' was going to bring 'salvation' to this 'crazy world'...bla, bla... The Lard of the Universe, in person! Oh, whow! How naive was I? You can relate to that...I participated/slaved for years doing 'service' until I began to read this forum and Jean-Michel's site, and then, I saw THE REAL LIGHT!! I'm an EX!!!! Read as much as you can...

Welcome Sam!!! Hang around: This is fun...

SB

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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 15:54:17 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: Daneaneg@earthlink.net
To: SB
Subject: confused? Is the same story, really....
Message:
Have you got a journey posted somewheres?
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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 09:27:26 (GMT)
From: Angry
Email: None
To: Sam
Subject: confused
Message:
I agree with what JM says below. I too was a long time cult member. Part of what Maha says is designed to make you think that failure to really experience the K is due to some deficiency on your part. It is not and once you accept this you can begin to exit the cult and break free.
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Date: Fri, May 12, 2000 at 01:59:53 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Sam
Subject: Welcome !!!!!!!
Message:
Why don't you go and read the 'journeys' pages on this website ?

Lots of testimonies from people like you ....... I've stopped 3 years 1/2 ago .......

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