Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 15:30:51 (GMT)
From: May 15, 2000 To: May 23, 2000 Page: 2 Of: 5


JW -:- Summary for the Press/Michael Moore/etc. -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 20:30:13 (GMT)
__ cq -:- re. Way's letter of objection -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 18:49:51 (GMT)

Elaine -:- Dalai Lama -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 19:44:33 (GMT)
__ Elaine B -:- Dalai Lama well... -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 15:31:35 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- Dalai Lama well... -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 19:32:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ Elaine -:- Dalai Lama well... -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 23:41:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- Dalai Lama well... -:- Sat, May 20, 2000 at 13:32:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Dalai Lama well... -:- Sat, May 20, 2000 at 16:22:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- OK ... so what WERE you implying? -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 14:32:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Long time no see... -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 15:30:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Long time... that would be fourth dimensional?(nt) -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 16:01:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Long time... that would be fourth dimensional?(nt) -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 16:06:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- ...time being the fourth dimension -or am I wrong? -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 17:40:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Slipping into inactive dimension.......... -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 19:08:08 (GMT)
__ Paul -:- Dalai Lama -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 15:24:07 (GMT)
__ Happy -:- Dalai Lama , Muktananda -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 11:16:04 (GMT)
__ __ Runamok 2.1 -:- Dalai Lama , Muktananda -:- Sat, May 20, 2000 at 05:10:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ Happy -:- Dalai Lama , Muktananda -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 11:23:30 (GMT)
__ Runamok -:- Dalai Lama Info -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 02:31:29 (GMT)
__ Powerman -:- Dalai Lama -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 20:24:25 (GMT)
__ __ Jethro -:- Dalai Lama -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 10:36:16 (GMT)
__ __ gerry -:- Muktananda -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 21:01:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ Elaine -:- Muktananda -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 00:45:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- and I'll bet you were left thinkin -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 01:05:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- and I'll bet you were left thinkin -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 01:25:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- which him? i'm sure you never think of the house -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 01:57:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- which him? i'm sure you never think of the house -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 02:05:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- glad we got that straight -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 03:19:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- 'IRL ' ?? (nt) -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 01:32:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- muk -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 23:12:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- mukraking -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 15:12:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Like plugging-in a phone jack? (nt) -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 02:00:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- and monkeys fly out of my butt -:- Sat, May 20, 2000 at 03:08:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- and monkeys fly out of my butt -:- Sat, May 20, 2000 at 17:46:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Glad to be of assistance -:- Sat, May 20, 2000 at 19:09:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Yuktananda (nt) -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 15:58:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- guess they hadn't invented Viagra yet -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 15:36:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Whoa...good story. (nt) -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 15:27:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- hey Elaine only 5 to go! -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 15:40:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sam -:- Other sources -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 01:42:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- hi Sam -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 03:33:37 (GMT)

Donna - exgirfriend -:- Thank you -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 18:17:57 (GMT)
__ Elaine -:- Thank you -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 19:27:35 (GMT)
__ __ Powerman -:- Thank you -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 20:18:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ Elaine -:- Thank you -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 01:34:40 (GMT)
__ __ Hal -:- Sounds like someone familier -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 20:10:39 (GMT)

raina -:- Elaine Pagels 'The Gnostic Gospels' -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 16:17:56 (GMT)
__ hamzen -:- A few thoughts -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 18:41:29 (GMT)
__ __ raina -:- using lots of 'yous' -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 22:59:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ hamzen -:- u = 1 in general and pancho villa -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 00:52:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Robyn -:- u = 1 in general and pancho villa -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 02:47:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ raina -:- i beg your pardon? My laziness may be showing more -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 01:10:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- I would if I could -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 06:06:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- hamzen? please accept my apologies? -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 05:38:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Even more puzzled?! -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 18:22:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- feel free to give the patterns more thought -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 18:54:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- YAY! Thankyou! THE perfect example! -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 15:36:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Sorry, obviously I'm being COMPLETELY dense here, -:- Sat, May 20, 2000 at 08:35:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- YAY! Thankyou! THE perfect example! -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 16:00:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- I thought that was poncho! -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 16:18:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Yes, this is a perfect example, alright -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 02:36:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- i never try to do anything -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 05:25:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- p.s. -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 18:46:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- First off there was no cynicism or bitterness, -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 18:12:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- REINSTATED DISGUST 4 HAMZEN -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 18:25:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ hamzennnnnn -:- Hello hello, what the fuck are you talking about? -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 21:05:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- See how hard it is! even when people try! -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 21:52:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- So what's the chances of getting back to my point -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 22:47:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- So what's the chances of getting back to my point -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 03:23:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ party girl -:- hamzen sends me house mixes -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 05:40:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- hamzen sends me house mixes -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 06:12:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- that's why I gave him the phone -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 06:27:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- that's why I gave him the phone -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 16:01:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- what happened? -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 17:07:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- what happened? -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 19:13:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- hold the phone! -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 06:44:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- which one? sounds like you are in a big city -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 06:50:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- which one? -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 15:57:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- I thought that was poncho! -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 18:30:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- mama yo caro. mama yo caro. mama i yo -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 22:03:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- i know every I Love Lucy episode ever made -:- Sat, May 20, 2000 at 03:15:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- i know every I Love Lucy episode ever made -:- Sat, May 20, 2000 at 03:33:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- i know every I Love Lucy episode ever made -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 06:21:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- i know every I Love Lucy episode ever made -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 15:54:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- i know every I Love Lucy episode ever made -:- Sat, May 20, 2000 at 03:35:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- i know every I Love Lucy episode ever made -:- Sat, May 20, 2000 at 03:58:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- it is a poncho -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 16:25:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- see how nice i really am?! always willing to be -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 21:59:21 (GMT)
__ cq -:- Elaine Pagels 'The Gnostic Gospels' -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 17:50:22 (GMT)
__ __ raina -:- it's the lost arc -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 18:17:00 (GMT)
__ __ raina -:- of course i will read it....but -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 18:11:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- No pressure. It can wait as long as you (nt) -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 20:26:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ raina -:- No pressure. It can wait as long as you (nt) -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 22:45:14 (GMT)
__ Mili -:- Elaine Pagels 'The Gnostic Gospels' -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 17:32:22 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- Elaine Pagels 'The Gnostic Gospels' -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 18:20:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ raina -:- Elaine Pagels 'The Gnostic Gospels' -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 23:09:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Elaine Pagels 'The Gnostic Gospels' -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 11:10:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ raina -:- consumed by my own evidence? -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 15:44:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Doubting Thomas? -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 17:17:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- Doubting Thomas? -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 22:10:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Doubting Thomas? -:- Sat, May 20, 2000 at 19:32:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- Yes I believe advertisers lie. Call me naive. -:- Sat, May 20, 2000 at 20:39:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Yes I believe advertisers lie. Call me naive. -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 02:05:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- why do i hear Brian Stoker's Dracula? -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 03:12:56 (GMT)
__ __ raina -:- 2 kewl! thanx mili -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 17:59:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mili -:- 2 kewl! thanx mili -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 18:16:38 (GMT)
__ Elaine -:- Oh and... -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 16:33:14 (GMT)
__ __ raina -:- 'sorry' you say? about? -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 17:41:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ Elaine -:- 'sorry' you say? about? -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 19:16:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ raina -:- i figured-but wanted to make sure! (nt) -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 22:47:03 (GMT)
__ Elaine -:- Elaine Pagels 'The Gnostic Gospels' -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 16:24:06 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- too sleepy to answer -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 16:24:04 (GMT)
__ __ raina -:- you're the best -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 17:38:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- and Monica Lewis and I have the same -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 18:00:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ raina -:- and Monica Lewis and I have the same -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 18:14:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ raina -:- and Monica Lewis and I have the same -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 22:50:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- but I think her name is Monique no? -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 22:53:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- oh? no secret lingo attempts here...just being sil -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 23:12:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- I read here that someone said that they heard that -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 23:15:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- I read here that someone said that they heard that -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 01:16:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- 6 degrees of Kevin bacon -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 04:02:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- 6 degrees of Kevin bacon -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 04:22:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- KEVIN BACON'S MUSIC makes him a murderer -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 16:18:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- gotta break in here and say something to you helen -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 04:10:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- gotta break in here and say something to you helen -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 22:50:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- hair color too -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 23:07:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- that not so fresh feeling -:- Sat, May 20, 2000 at 03:19:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- being a bitch is just being yourself after being -:- Sat, May 20, 2000 at 03:39:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ oh yeah and.. -:- don't feel bad I can't spell corolla either -:- Sat, May 20, 2000 at 03:51:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- that I don't have the facts on this -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 02:04:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- that I don't have the facts on this -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 04:14:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- loved conceted blonde!! and missed that one song!! -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 04:26:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- guess what phase i was going thru when i gave that -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 05:19:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- can't even imagine, I LOST mine. fuck... -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 05:25:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- first (commercial) release -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 16:26:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- oh thats too bad. I lost almost all my music then -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 16:35:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- it doesn't seem possible that one could loose thei -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 22:14:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- I did. -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 23:12:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- I did. -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 16:08:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- yes he did and you didn't confuse me about rome -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 17:17:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- yes he did and you didn't confuse me about rome -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 18:59:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- very good questions -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 19:13:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- shit ya! -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 20:53:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- 12 years? who am I kidding, more like 25! -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 19:29:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- it was called 'The Hidden' I think -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 16:54:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene the typist -:- and yes that heading was a typo concrete blonde!! -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 04:32:35 (GMT)

Susan -:- Watch out when you buy LOTU from Amazon -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 15:52:31 (GMT)
__ Elaine -:- Deepak -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 16:09:16 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Yeah - he writes stuff like this: -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 13:51:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ Elaine -:- Yeah - he writes stuff like this: -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 14:42:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Uh... right. Thanks! (nt) -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 14:53:55 (GMT)
__ __ Susan -:- I claim utter ignorance and apologize -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 17:27:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ Elaine -:- I claim utter ignorance and apologize -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 19:29:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ Powerman -:- I claim utter ignorance and apologize -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 17:37:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Happy -:- Deepak on Larry King -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 11:47:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Beautifully put (nt) -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 18:47:46 (GMT)

Jethro -:- Ex-satsangies interested in ex-premies -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 15:38:26 (GMT)
__ Jethro -:- More ex-satsangi santsang about exs -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 22:00:30 (GMT)
__ sCaRy gErRy -:- Poetry From the Darkside by gnz -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 16:02:45 (GMT)
__ __ Sam -:- Why, oh why -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 01:49:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ Happy -:- Why, oh why -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 11:58:44 (GMT)


Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 20:30:13 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Summary for the Press/Michael Moore/etc.
Message:
Way has done an excellent job pulling together the letter with the summary of the objections of ex-premies to Maharaji. J-M has now put it on the website, and the link is down below.

It occurs to me after reading it, that, along with the LOTU video, and historical information on the ex-premie website (and Sir Dave's and J-M's websites) that this letter is a good summary for the press or whoever we might be trying to do publicity on this, as a kind of road map summary of why this website exists, and what this is all about.

So, for all of you who are making those contacts, I suggest considering Way's letter to include when providing information.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 18:49:51 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: re. Way's letter of objection
Message:
re. Way's letter of objection

Way has put together a pretty well-written piece, IMHO.

In fact, I have only a couple of quibbles with what is otherwise a damn good resume of the main objections that are facing the Maha. The minor one first: paedophilia is spelt with a paE.

The second is more important: Way says of M's statements (on M's own website) about his finances that 'although these statements may be defendable in a court of law...'

I would question that.

Maha claims on his own website that he 'receives no compensation OR BENEFITS OF ANY KIND from any of the organizations that support his work'

No benefits of any kind???

His organisations arrange for him to speak to potential donators, don't they? Why else would he speak to them?

If he means what he says and 'receives no benefits of ANY kind'from his association with these organisations, why the hell should he have anything to do with them? What kind of businessman would do that?

And don't try telling me he's an altruist.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 19:44:33 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Dalai Lama
Message:
I have an ex friend that really LOVES the Dalai Lama now.Saw a couple of movies and compares him to Maharaji -- as in, there is no comparison. Then went to see him.

1.)What does the Dalai Lama offer? What is the big deal with him. I know I could go to my local Tibetan restaurant and find out something or to the library --- but, 2.) has anyone any idea of good things he does?

I really don't know anything - he could be a saint for all I know.

I asked the house father at a Muktananda ashram once what was the big deal with Muk,was there an initiation or something? - it was like pulling teeth but I finally got it out of him. What an eye opener.
3.)Does The Dalai teach something?

Thanks,Elaine

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 15:31:35 (GMT)
From: Elaine B
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Dalai Lama well...
Message:
Well, thank you all, but...

So far he just seems like a very good person then. Just what I thought. Doesn't 'show or offer' anything then. Just his presence is nice to be inspired by, I guess it sounds like.

Well,alrighty,then.

Elaine

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 19:32:51 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Elaine B
Subject: Dalai Lama well...
Message:
Elaine, in your opinion, the Dalai Lama - 'a very good person' - as you describe him, 'doesn't show or offer anything then'.

Just what are you implying here?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 23:41:26 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Dalai Lama well...
Message:
Well, isn't it obvious, cq?
The Dalai Lama is scum and should be locked up for the rest of his life, which would be only better if shortened by public thrashing first in the noon day sun,after being humiliated in all the world papers while a picture was being taken of him doing the horrible things only he could do?

Is that what you wanted to hear?

Elaine

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 13:32:40 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Dalai Lama well...
Message:
That was unexpected!

As for what I wanted to hear - well, I would have liked to hear you expand on why NOT showing/offering 4 simple meditation techniques makes the Dalai Lama a lesser person than the Maha(in your eyes).

Care to?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 16:22:31 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Dalai Lama well...
Message:
I know that's what you wanted. That's why I said what I said.

I've read some of your posts. I get a feel for your attitudes sometimes. If someone else would have asked me to clarify they may have said it differently instead of assuming I was 'implying' anything. So I personalized it. Thus my unexpected response to you.
You seem to assume an implication -- confirmed in your response above.

How you get that 'NOT showing..techniques... etc. makes the DL a lesser person than M etc..' out of what I have said is preposterous to me.

Let me say this nicely and clearly, (inner meaning --- I will try not to be emotional or personalize),cq,----
There was no implication of the esteemed Dalai Lama to be any less of a wonderful human being because he seems to not 'show or offer'anything that I can get my hands on. It doesn't seem he teaches any Golden Rules to live by or any hatha yoga stretches to help on an inner journey. Maybe he does - I don't know of any so far.
I am curious as to the draw he has for people. Perhaps it is his wonderful presence. Then, so be it.

I personally found Mother Theresa's actions in this world to be quite inspiring and often she had her words written down and they were also something I could 'get a handle' on.
So far the 'draw' to the DL or Sun Yung Moon is a mystery to me.

When a person in the early days or now is approached by a 'Moonie' - what is it they they even say that attracts a person? Do you know? It fascinates me. Once I find out it may not.

No 'lesser thans' here,cq.

I resented the implication of any from you from the start.
Sorry, I personalized it - I know it is a button of mine.

Assumptions in general are triggers for me. I wish I was a professional debater - any emotionalism in talking on the site here is not a great thing. --For me.
I promise to work on it.

Elaine

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 14:32:52 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: OK ... so what WERE you implying?
Message:
You say you resented the implication (of the Dalai Lama being “lesser than” the Maha) from the start.

Well, so did I! Rightly or wrongly I thought that’s what YOU were implying (and I did ask for clarification in my first post to you).

Perhaps it was a sense of the Dalai being “damned by faint praise”, but your description of him:

”…just seems like a very good person then. Just what I thought. Doesn’t show or offer anything then. Just his presence is nice …”

- sounded to me like you were suggesting that someone who does “show or offer” is therefore more than “just” this or “just” that.

But pardon my projecting, if that’s what I was doing.

Maybe I hooked into an attitude that I myself had when I towed the party-line as a premie – you know - Knowledge is superior to all other meditations/paths/teachers and any other religious figurehead (Pope, Dalai, - whoever) can’t be as good as the true Perfect Master of our time …”

But you’re not saying that, are you?

Are you?

BTW, if you’re genuine in wanting to find out more about the Dalai Lama, he’ll be speaking in LA and Washington in June/July of this year.
http://www.dalailama.com/html/teach2000.html for venue details.

PS Pardon me for asking, but ... you do still think of yourself as being a premie, don't you?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 15:30:13 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Long time no see...
Message:
'Rightly or wrongly....Sounded to me....Pardon my....Maybe....Pardon me for asking...'

I like this new you. :)

I see after weeks on this site - I probably think of myself as a premie because I don't think of myself as an ex-premie,is all.

I don't like talking about it bec for me it's such a non-issue.
Labels have always been hard for me - they pidgeon-hole people too much. Seem to close the door for others to see change or growth - in other words labels to me are a breeding ground for concepts and thus,separation.

Try it sometime - if I told you I was a wheelchair bound lesbian,
instead of a tall good-looking healthy woman - doesn't it change your opinion/concept of me. You may treat me differently - -
on one hand you may be nicer to me bec of the handi-cap --- tho, unconsciously not respect me for being a lesbian,no?

I mean if not a possibility for you---can you see for someone else then??

Don't like labels.Not a good thing.

In my mind - you all here are just people. Constantly changing and growing. Your political persuasion is of no interest to me and ever-changing.( That is - sexual persuasion -spirtual or even which golf club preference.)
It all is changing and so,so... just... 3rd dimensional, don't you think?

Elaine

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 16:01:30 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Long time... that would be fourth dimensional?(nt)
Message:
Long time... that would be fourth dimensional?(nt)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 16:06:30 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Long time... that would be fourth dimensional?(nt)
Message:
So your still around, eh?

No,actually long time is most definitely only
Third dimensional.

But, I can appreciated the humor.

Elaine B.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 17:40:37 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: ...time being the fourth dimension -or am I wrong?
Message:
I thought three dimensions were needed for placing an object in space, and the fourth was for a temporal fix?

Talking of which, - my disappearance from this Forum from Saturday afternoons to Mondays is unfortunate - I miss this Forum's primetime, when most of yous are online. Nothing to do with religious ideals, you understand, just that I have no access to the net between those times.

Anyway, back to this Dalai Lama thread. He being the subject of conversation, no?

Now that I know you still identify with being a premie, Elaine, (even though you apparently resent the implications that 'label' has) I'd like to ask you this:

compared to the knowledge you practice, do you think any other creeds/faiths/meditations/paths (you get the idea) are worth pursuing? Or has getting the 'knowledge' stopped you from looking elsewhere?

Why do I ask? Well, your curiosity about the Dalai Lama made me wonder if you were looking to widen your scope of search.

Or is Maharaji the cul-de-sac you're happy to sacrifice your explorative nature to?


Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 19:08:08 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Slipping into inactive dimension..........
Message:
Well, that explains your absence,thank you.

Well, when I was talking about time in the 3rd dimension - I'm not a scientist ---- I think my fellow posters will agree to that ----:)...I was really referring to in another dimension - other than here on Earth ---there is no time as we know it.

I'm talking more about the communications from those that have had NDE's and then from the communications that come thru many mediums like James Van Praagh and others -Ruth Montgomery,etc.
That is a major item they talk about - that there is no time on the Other side. I don't expect you to get into that with me.
But, it's where I'm coming from.

As for the other questions - if you've read me here at all --- I think I've made it a pretty open book - I'm kind of into anything that can advance me.
I don't think SRF,Sun Yong,the Dalai L,Eckankar,etc. in particular have anything I want to pursue.

The techs are definetly enough for a person who wants to concentrate inside. I mean - you've got to steady your eyeballs from twitching if you want to focus fully inside - I've found.Ear plugs work just as good as thumbs pretty much.
And ya can't beat the tech of Holy Name,IMO

Now if someone told me about more techniques ---cool, I'm there. That would be fun.

I read ALOT. Now that you mention it - I could see myself following a lecture series or classes in Kundalini Yoga.
I'm into clearing my chakras. My experience of Holy Name happens best when my chakras are cleared.

If someone told me to place certain crystals on my head while meditating - I'd do it.

But, no I'm not into following the DL ---what could he offer me?
That I couldn't find elsewhere. Or don't already have?
I don't know. I can get Buddhist insights from books or the local med center with a Buddhist nun leading.
If he fundraises for needy people - well, I'm already giving to the charities of my choice( I'm not referring here of EV,BTW)

I just don't see,so far, what one 'gets' from the Dalai Lama --no one has answered my question to my satisfaction.
I'm not searching by asking that ques. just curious ----bec if there is something interesting there --- I'll check it out.
Just doesn't seem to be.

I'd rather smoke pot for that matter. That is leaving my cul-de-sac wouldn't ya say?

Elaine

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 15:24:07 (GMT)
From: Paul
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Dalai Lama
Message:
Hi Elaine: The Dalai Lama, like most of Tibetan Buddhism, is very much into the questioning and challenging of practices and beliefs. Intense debate is part of all monks' training. He has often said that that there is no conflict between Buddhism and science, and that he would change his practices/beliefs if science is able to demonstrate that any practices violate proven scientific principles. I know people who have spent time with him, and can only describe him as humble, compassionate, intellegent, and very human.

Paul

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 11:16:04 (GMT)
From: Happy
Email: happyheretic@hotmail.com
To: Elaine
Subject: Dalai Lama , Muktananda
Message:
Elaine,

Dalai Lama is in fact a quite nice guy, who doesn't believe in his own divinity himself, but he plays the pope game anyway, because he thinks it is best for his people. That may be questioned, of course. But he is really quite nice.

Muktananda, on the other hand, was a 100% asshole. A pedophile, too (have we heard this story before?). He had sex with his young female disciples, and claimed it was for 'spiritual' purposes. One of the ugliest guys of all the gurus who came to the West. There's a lot about him on the internet.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 05:10:47 (GMT)
From: Runamok 2.1
Email: None
To: Happy
Subject: Dalai Lama , Muktananda
Message:
Happy,
Does the DL specifically claim not to be the reincarnating DL? I don't think so.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 11:23:30 (GMT)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Runamok 2.1
Subject: Dalai Lama , Muktananda
Message:
Don't know whether you'll read this - I haven't logged in for a few days. Maybe I should move it

DL is very vague about it. He says he has no memories, but that he feels very close to the 5th and to the 13th DLs. The 5th established Tibet as a nation; the 13th was important in keeping Tibet independent from the Chinese. This DL says that he feels his fate and 'purpose' are similar to theirs. But he clearly admits that he is not sure about what reincarnation really is. He believes there is something there, but he does know exactly what.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 02:31:29 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Dalai Lama Info
Message:
The Dalai Lama is the title given to one of four spiritual leaders in the Tibetan tradition. With the DL, he is supposed to be the reincarncation of the previous one.

They use signs to locate the children who are the correct age. They then test them, supposedly in a rigorous way, with objects that had belonged to the previous DL. The DL supposedly will identify idiosyncracies about these items that would be difficult or impossible for others to know.

Aside from this, the DL has dealt with Chinese aggression first hand and has led his country during a period of persecution and genocide. People admire his pacifistic spirit in the face of a million deaths and the burning of most of his country's libraries.

Whatever people think of their tradition, not only is Chinese agression imporssible to justify, but neither is the burning of books on these subjects.


Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 20:24:25 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Dalai Lama
Message:
The Lamaman is a Buddhist leader who was recognized as a child by other monks to be the reincarnation of a former Buddhist leader. He said 'My religion is kindness'. He was exiled from Tibet by the Chinese in the 1940's and now Richard Gere likes him. Another thing he said was that Alcholics Anonymous is the most spiritual organization in America.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 10:36:16 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: Dalai Lama
Message:
'Another thing he said was that Alcholics Anonymous is the most spiritual organization in America'

When Iwas in LA a couple of years ago, I went with a friend to an AA meeting..and I've got to say that it was the best 'satsang' I have ever intended.

Regards Jethro

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 21:01:02 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Muktananda
Message:
Elaine, tell us what the housefather said about Muk that you pulled out of him. what made it such an eye opener?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 00:45:35 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Muktananda
Message:
It's better when I tell it in person....

After dinner we sat...Lots of pulling of teeth....understand.
He says,(Finally)--- Yes, there is an initiation. You get this mantra.
(Lots of pulling)...FINALLY,he says the mantra.....ooookkkkk
so what does that mean??Cause it's in sanskrit/hindi or something...He tells me a rough translation...'Oh,Vishnu you are blah, blah and you are so great,etc.' OK NEXT....
'OH Shiva something something and you are so great something.'...all in some funny language.
Third! 'Oh Brahma you are so great your Holy Name resounds in the whole Universe - nowhere can I go that your Holy Name is not..I pranam at your Holy Name etc....'
I remembered that one pretty well actually - you get the idea.
So I say to him -----'Is that the one you do???'

He gasped as he clutched his chest and said -'Oh my God,NO---I've only been doing this for 6 months!!!!!'

I calmly said - 'Uh-huh I see.'
Knowing the boy didn't have a clue what this Sat Nam was - only decided to dedicate his life to EVENTUALLY being able to say the third mantra in a foreign language that told about how great something was that he didn't know what was. (That was fun to type.)

This guy had gone to India to learn how to cook in Muk's ashrams and was a friendly over weight chap that I invited to the ashram where I was the house mother. He never invited me to his :(
We met at the health food store.

The End

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 01:05:37 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: and I'll bet you were left thinkin
Message:
reinforced thinking..
you had the one true one.
good story Elaine. I'll bet it WAS funny IRL. no sarcasm meant. have been there. Poor guy :)
So where are you at these days, about M?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 01:25:27 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: and I'll bet you were left thinkin
Message:
Oh, please Selene not from you?
It makes my head hurt.Maybe later.
( I never think of him. )
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 01:57:32 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: which him? i'm sure you never think of the house
Message:
father guy Elaine. I was just asking where you were at with Mahara ji. didn't mean to confront.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 02:05:17 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: which him? i'm sure you never think of the house
Message:
I know you don't ( mean to confront) thank you.
Never think of GMJ.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 03:19:33 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: glad we got that straight
Message:
Thanks for responding IRL = in real life

can you help me fill out the other 8 on AG? it's bad when one forgets the important things in life :)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 01:32:11 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: 'IRL ' ?? (nt)
Message:
irl
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 23:12:24 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: muk
Message:
muk is always somewhat of an eye opener gerry, especially when
pulled out, of someone. It's always best to let that stuff come out naturally. And personally, I wouldn't watch.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 15:12:10 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: mukraking
Message:
'A Siddha master can juice up the Shakti with sex,' one longtime devotee who left SYDA in the mid-eighties told me. In his book 'Where Are You Going?' Muktananda writes, 'It is through the power of the upward-flowing sexual fluid' that the guru 'is able to give Shaktipat.' In context, this appears to be part of an argument for celibacy. But it may shed light on a detail common to all accounts of sexual encounters with Muktananda: that he did not ejaculate.

Two women I talked with who were in their twenties when Muktananda approached them said that they had considered their experience to be 'loving,' and that it was 'not exactly sex.' What, exactly, was meant by 'not exactly sex' was clarified by another ex-devotee, a writer, who sent me an unpublished account of what she described as a sexual encounter she had at the age of twenty-six with the then seventy-one-year-old Muktananda.

After talking to her for a while in his room one evening about the power of Kundalini, she reports, Muktananda told her that 'the pleasure we gain out of having sex also has a higher counterpart.' Her account continued:

He told me that when the Kundalini is fully realized, the body exists in a state of permanent ecstacy. 'It ever changes and is ever new.'

He asked me to lie down on a table. He stood close to me and placed himself inside of me. We stayed for about one and a half hours in that position. During that whole he never had an erection or ejaculation. He never even moved. We talked all the time. He joked a lot, and told me stories about his childhood. At a certain moment he said: 'Whatever happens now cannot be understood with the mind. Don't think about it a lot. This is just happening, that is all. Just know that this is the greatest day of your life.'

It was a very extraordinary experience. And he was right, I could never understand with my mind what happened that evening. All I know was that I was in a state of total ecstacy, and whatever happened had nothing to do with sex.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 02:00:53 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Like plugging-in a phone jack? (nt)
Message:
Like plugging-in a phone jack? (nt)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 03:08:43 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: and monkeys fly out of my butt
Message:
lie down and think of England....
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 17:46:24 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: and monkeys fly out of my butt
Message:
That image alone took my snickers craving away.
Thank you,Helen
Elaine
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 19:09:43 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Glad to be of assistance
Message:
I could be the next Jenny Craig!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 15:58:56 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Yuktananda (nt)
Message:
mm
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 15:36:45 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: guess they hadn't invented Viagra yet
Message:
poor girl!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 15:27:12 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Whoa...good story. (nt)
Message:
omm
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 15:40:51 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: hey Elaine only 5 to go!
Message:
good going. As I said, it's a character flaw of mine that I can't think of anything wrong with the damned things.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 01:42:47 (GMT)
From: Sam
Email: -
To: Selene
Subject: Other sources
Message:
There are other groups offering M's light/ sound experience eg. Eckanka. Then maybe the whole thing is just non-existent or a ringing in the ears as I know of nothing offering much better
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 03:33:37 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Sam
Subject: hi Sam
Message:
I haven't really followed any threads here with any logical
consistancy. Are you new? Are you the SamTheFrog person who asked me about the proxy software etc.? or someone different? anyway that really is beside the point I just thought I should respond to your post. Hi.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 18:17:57 (GMT)
From: Donna - exgirfriend
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Thank you
Message:
Just wanted to thank everyone for being so understanding and being there for me. I find myself now in a postion of not knowing what is happening to me or what did happen to me then.

I'm not blaming anyone but myself for getting involved and staying involved in something that felt so internally crazy. I tried to make sense out of it, but couldn't and I'm glad I gave up trying. It was damaging and I hope that I can get on with my life without too many hard bruises.

Many people around me are telling me that they thought that he was abusing me, but did not understand why I was in it and acted like I was happy.

I gained strength and common sense through my experience and was able to leave such a horrible relationship. Now, I must learn how to heal, get over it and move on.

I really really appreciate all the responses. They helped me so much.

There is a difference in getting sympothy and acutally having some else that knows what you have gone through.

Thanks

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 19:27:35 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Donna - exgirfriend
Subject: Thank you
Message:
Donna,
None of my business - - but what signs will you look for so you'll know early on not to get involved again with someone even similar to him.
Have you ever thought about why you were attracted in the first place or why you stayed after the first or second time he exhibited abusive behaviour?

You don't have to answer me or anything. Just something for you to think about. Many people make the same mistakes over and over and over until they analyze what and why they are doing a certain behaviour --- whatever it is.
The red flags are important----drinking?employed?living with parents at 40?Obese? Dirty?Bankrupt?Generally similar to George Kastanza?Fear of therapy?Smoker?
These are some of the things I watch for.
Yours may be different.
You may want an overweight smoker that drinks and has financial problems. Nothing wrong with that if you know what you're doing.

Anyway,take care Elaine

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 20:18:01 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Thank you
Message:
You really do have to watch out for those fat, dirty smokers, especially if they're still living with mom and afraid of psychotherapy. They can be verbally and physically assaultive.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 01:34:40 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: Thank you
Message:
And don't forget they're everywhere...
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 20:10:39 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Sounds like someone familier
Message:
' drinking? employed? Obese? Fear of therapy? Smoker?

An overweight smoker who has financial problems?'

Can't think who I've heard those things about, now was it something on ex premie org? I wonder.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 16:17:56 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Elaine Pagels 'The Gnostic Gospels'
Message:
According to religious scholars like Pagels, in the 1600's the catholic church made sure to leave out of 'the Bible' (as we know it today) documented stories about Jesus as a 10 year old boy killing a child who had thrown a rock at him.....

The church decided that it was important to leave out anything that showed Jesus BECOMING an entity-and just thought it best for people to imagine him coming through Mary's birth canal with a huge ornate crown already attached to his head.

It's not impossible to believe that Mary had never had sex with Joseph. The CONCEPT of an 'immaculate conception' probably came from them also feeling that the Virgin-Lap-Dancer wouldn't hold water.

Is the roadie's mutiny Jesus's fault?

Maybe they should teach 1st graders that Religion is a Business?
But then of course the catholic church would probably see to it that
anyone even proposing such a thing would never work again!

Why is it our first impulse to laugh at someone who is walking down the street yelling something like 'I am a king!' ? Because we are taught from an early age that we could
be locked up for delusions of self-importance.

And in fact THAT is exactly what is wrong with the world....people acting like kings and queens...

Pinning false hopes on people with big dreams is the pinners problems...not the dreamers.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 18:41:29 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: A few thoughts
Message:
'Is the roadie's mutiny Jesus's fault?'

Well actually, yes.

If by presenting such a package as both he, & gm did, without any thought about this shithole of a planet, with all the psychological damage around, you are acting very irresponsibly. This from people very fond of telling others how much they respect and value life.
If you wanted to, it would be more than possible to see this as blatant hypocrisy.

Hey but maybe that's the joy of living in the moment, you know, it's not worth thinking about anything, so no responsibility to anything or anyone.

And we wonder where that premie arrogance was picked up from?

And again, 'Is the roadie's mutiny Jesus's fault?'

Well actually, yes.

Otherwise your handling, what could be an extremely toxic substance with undue care.

Of course those followers around now, will say this is why he has straightened up everything around EV. Of course anybody who has left knows that is a very shallow response, and deals only with the obvious problem where individuals with serious mental health problems are around.
The fact that everyone who is there is a problem big-time is neglected. People prepared to give up their identity as all followers were on some level, have no idea how dangerous and desperate psychologically that is, and exactly how much it says about those people.
Exactly why gm had to stop satsang, MUCH too dangerous, on any number of levels.

The best people to describe the dangers of any ideological route are the ones who have left it.

Social engineering by the constant use of repetition, is a particularly obnoxious route because it leaves you de-natured in some way that you can't define until you step out of the box.
Then you start really learning!

(By the way, anybody know what the charity status is for an outsider employed by a charitable institution actually running it?)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 22:59:15 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: using lots of 'yous'
Message:
you use so many 'yous' it's hard for me to understand if you mean 'me'? or 'one' (in general) for example....you made my brain hurt a little....i think i'll try reading it again later!

for example you wrote:
'Social engineering by the constant use of repetition, is a particularly
obnoxious route because it leaves you de-natured in some way that you
can't define until you step out of the box.
Then you start really learning!'

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 00:52:31 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: u = 1 in general and pancho villa
Message:
or the generale if 'you' will,

gm seemed quite often to be preparing for the role of a generale in some dodgy hollywood 'b' movie set in the time of pancho villa, I mean what was it with those moustaches of his?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 02:47:44 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: u = 1 in general and pancho villa
Message:
Dear ham,
I love this movie idea! :) I have never gotten into musing about what star will play m or monica but this one, I could love! Just picture m, with a gun in a hulster, traveling on a little boro! Hahahahahahaha! What a mental image!
Love,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 01:10:32 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: i beg your pardon? My laziness may be showing more
Message:
than i like. But could you possibly translate into the english the word 'pancho.' for me?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 06:06:02 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: I would if I could
Message:
but I've got no idea.

Pancho Villa was a Mexican, early 20th century, bit of a revolutionary, who had a number of films made about him, I'm thinking of one with Robert Mitchum and Yul Brynner?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 05:38:29 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: hamzen? please accept my apologies?
Message:
if i seemed unduly harsh towards you.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 18:22:27 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: Even more puzzled?!
Message:
You call that harsh; misinformed maybe, but I must be really dense, following you at times is like watching a butterfly in swirling winds, excellent entertainment, but don't analyse it too much or give the patterns much thought. Maybe feeling as you do about most people, a feeling I can relate to big time by the way, this communication style of being entertaining but impossible to pin down could be your way of keeping self space??

Even outside of the net there are very few people whose views mean anything really to me, so don't worry, everythings cool.

Talking of which, what kind of music are you into?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 18:54:32 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: feel free to give the patterns more thought
Message:
but definately avoid analyzing it.
you might hurt yourself.

what kind of music do i like?
Brtiney Spears duet with Kevin Bacon
on Vatican Records.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 15:36:00 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: YAY! Thankyou! THE perfect example!
Message:
THIS is the cure for cancer!
Curing deafness!!!!

Please don't hear this sarcastically hamzen?

Which words triggered the assumption in your mind that I don't know who Pancho Villa is? Because I asked what specifically the spanish/latinny word (or actually the hamzen word here) 'pancho' tranlated into english?

THIS! is what i have been trying to isolate for years.

Do you see it?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 08:35:03 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: Sorry, obviously I'm being COMPLETELY dense here,
Message:
I can hear you're trying to make a point, but I don't have a clue what it is.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 16:00:28 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: YAY! Thankyou! THE perfect example!
Message:
Raina,
'Because I asked what specifically the spanish/latinny word (or actually the hamzen word here) 'pancho' tranlated into english?'
Pancho is also a blanket/coat thingy, eh.
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 16:18:32 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: I thought that was poncho!
Message:
poncho!

i looked for my mini spanish dictionary.....also keep meaning to check online etc...it just seems that 'pancho' might mean something more.....?...but i'm not really that concerned about the word...i was just trying to show that guy something (hamzen?)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 02:36:43 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: Yes, this is a perfect example, alright
Message:
It's a perfect example of you being an asshole, that's what. Hamzen tries to talk with you and you try -- with absolutely no success mind you -- to make him look like an idiot. Why?

Raina, on the one hand you bitch about how everyone minsunderstands you but on the other you seem to love cloaking your posts in obscurity. I'd say that's pretty blatantly hypocritical. Wouldn't you?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 05:25:25 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: i never try to do anything
Message:
really.....

i may actually avoid reading your posts for a while because as minor a detail as it is, being called an 'asshole' by you upsets me unnecessarily.

Hamzen said:
'This from people very fond of telling others how
much they respect and value life.
If you wanted to, it would be more than possible to see this as blatant
hypocrisy.'

and:
calling me irresponsible and careless?
'Otherwise your handling, what could be an extremely toxic substance with
undue care.'

I'm actually not sure who Hamzen is calling 'you' (the french are so lucky to have 'vous'!)
I might guess that it is just a soliloquy? but his bitter sarcastic tone may have affected the tone of my response.....you're perhaps right that i misread him.....but am i more at fault than him for the bad communication attempt?

believe me i would never try to give anyone a hard time-
i don't remember the last time i tried to do anything-sad? perhaps!

it's not the person here i am attacking as much as that
THING whatever it is...that thing that makes people forget
that they don't know ANYTHING about the person they'r giving advice to....
of course that can be seen as humorous, but it's also like the zombies
in night of living dead etc...

i like to share thoughts.....i don't TELL people what i think their
problems are.......my own are so much more urgent.

i hope i didn't offend Hamzen.

where do you live? got lots of privacy?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 18:46:38 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: p.s.
Message:
ya i have this theory about what happened to me just now.
i was listening to this one song (one guitar with harmonic
you could mistake for violins and angels....it's bloody fucking
amazing....like a cross between charlotte church, bjork, and
concrete blonde, if you can imagine such an impossibility....
and even more impossible how does this person end up dying
for scraps in crack head land? (we're not impressed with
charlotte church here! just not ignoring the massive numbers.)

and i imagined the pope signing a paper saying they 'owned'
it, and put in on the shelves of their private art collection,
locked away for no one to ever hear.....because it's so


powerful......
something more powerful than the arch bishop who wipes
the popes ass for breakfast, and so people feel threatened
on their own. The power in numbers games....i've never had
an interest in.....i'm too good by myself!

even when being locked in a cage with goolies knocking on the bars

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 18:12:16 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: First off there was no cynicism or bitterness,
Message:
just righteous anger, a very different substance, but mainly a health & safety issue. Dangerous/powerful substances like religion need to be handled with total care. Peoples heads get fucked much too easily.

Secondly YOU started the thread about Jesus. Jesus is a religious leader, gm is a religious leader, am I wrong to think we were talking about religious leaders?

Now having read a few of your other posts I'm assuming your response about Pancho was along those lines re assumptions, but don't you see the irony that all the stuff you've been saying about others is exactly what you did to me.

Now I don't give a monkeys, this is vr after all, and I'd much rather have neurotic people around me than by the book people, but make some effort, and this site isn't just a chat line, it does have a purpose.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 18:25:06 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: jim
Subject: REINSTATED DISGUST 4 HAMZEN
Message:
jim-
can you believe was actually happy to hear from hamzen for a moment here!
and was agreeing with him about some points re the dangerous power of religion,

and SUDDENLY he IS making himself clear! that he does mean ME!

so i was responding to a correct feeling in my gut that i would be conversing
with a zombie if i dare to engage!

i think my 'bitterness' is also an attempt to scare off the idiots before they come looking to have me wish for the end of their misery by drastic means.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 21:05:51 (GMT)
From: hamzennnnnn
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: Hello hello, what the fuck are you talking about?
Message:
I thought I just made it as plain as I possibly could that I thought we were talking about Jesus, NOT you.

I must be on bad drugs or something, and you need to skin up, chill out & put some sounds on.

Jesus, and no I'm not talking about Jesus here.

Ahh well one (that means me) has to smile.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 21:52:02 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: hamzennnnnn
Subject: See how hard it is! even when people try!
Message:
words are just as dangerous as guns huh...
that would be wild if there was ever a ban on speaking verbally....
than people would type letters and wait for fedex man before resorting
to gun violence! yes! i do believe i'm onto something....

(i let the 'you gotta skin up' slide.....)

only rule about raina?
i don't gota do nuthing.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 22:47:56 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: So what's the chances of getting back to my point
Message:
about jesus, gm and religious leaders in general, or does bringing that up make me an ex-premie zombie?

Of course you don't have to do anything, neither do I, neither does anyone. All we're doing here is airing views.

If we're gonna have any half-decent communication maybe we ought to air our agendas a bit, because I'm only half with you half of the time at the moment, no great loss if it doesn't happen, but...

Why so defensive?
And why so MANY assumptions that are negative, I'm sure as hell I don't know you from anywhere, best mates with one of my exes? hate house music? Any clues?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 03:23:53 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: So what's the chances of getting back to my point
Message:
which of the numerous points made in your post do you mean?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 05:40:48 (GMT)
From: party girl
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: hamzen sends me house mixes
Message:
he is cool (I think )
I have no reason or right to butt in to this thread. But I am up and upset from posting my 'brainwashing' post. Old memories and new ones stirring up shit. Why is it so hard to forget all this and who cares?
Oh this is Selene BTW
raina do you really live in a crack hood? Last year I had a guy wake me up at 6 a.m. for similar reasons. I gave him my phone and locked the door. amazingly, he used it, left. and the phone was still there when I went back!!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 06:12:56 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: party girl
Subject: hamzen sends me house mixes
Message:
i just pictured hamzen djing on some island off the coast of some country....

why would you give the person the phone if it were for similiar reasons?
in my situation, i hastily opened my shade, which is right next to my sleeping head, and said 'WHAT THE FUCK IS YOUR PROBLEM', which created a hostilty that seemed to try to intimidate me (engage me in their little mind's world) into being stupid enough to have a conversation -the fight they gots nuttin to do with....it's amazing! EVEN WHEN I'M SLEEPING! strangers are at my windowing cursing at me because they are crack whores.................and then i have to babysit their children instead of having my own.........fuck rich people and poor people.........they're the same stinking lot.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 06:27:56 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: that's why I gave him the phone
Message:
so I would never have to talk to him again.
well it worked. Though honestly it was a long shot and I was operating on intinct at the time walking in my sleep.
but it did work.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 16:01:17 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: that's why I gave him the phone
Message:
Selene,
I really like your solution, giving the guy the phone and locking the door! :) Creative!
As I face the beast, the thought of moving to a city for work...I just really don't know if I can do it. Really.
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 17:07:17 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: what happened?
Message:
Lost your email address. Can't picture you anywhere but your country oasis.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 19:13:44 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: what happened?
Message:
Hey Selene,
Do you know anything about Tarot cards? I am in the midst of the Tower card right now! Income cut in half which effects everything. I have a strong sense, most of the time, :| that things will come out for the better even beyond the job housing thing but this is SCARY to big time.
As I make effort to change things so many wonderful things have resulted, unfortunately nothing with a home or job, possibilities but nothing yet. When I am going through really hard stuff, which I had a run of a few months back also but they are now as they were then so obviously intertwined with excellent things, caring from people and amazing coincidences it helps me face the intense shit.
I have been looking for a place with no plumbing for right away, the price is right, and each time I go out, 3 different days. I have met, quite by accident, people whom I have lost track of for about 10 years, each of them. Now I haven't spent any effort to wonder why these were almost all the same situation but I like that it happened that way. Remember my mentioning my dear friend that I lost after his move to AZ? Well I didn't run into him but did run into someone whom he is still in touch with who is sending him my info, hope it gets it before I am gone! When I heard he was ok, I instantly started to cry, tears streaming down my face. I felt a bit like an idiot, never met this person I was speaking to before but, that day I thought that it didn't matter that I didn't get a home or job that day, just to hear he was well made it all well worth the effort.
That is it in a nut shell. I am looking on the net for work as well as a few possibilities in the area. If you want to email me you can, sundogs@hotmail.com
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 06:44:34 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: hold the phone!
Message:
interesting! but schtoopid right?

ya-it's a gas to go at it from that 'surprise kindness' angle.....

last night, there was this drunk guy sitting in the middle of a smallish audience of people clapping really loudly and out of rhythm while mr seger was playing (!) and i had this protective urge kick in where i thought i could intimidate him with neutral eyes! (he was SO drunk....just a matter of finding the switch you know?) but it didn't work....he clapped louder!....i saw seeger hug him at the end of the show, seemed like he was a former foster child in his care or something.....so buzzar......

i remember once being in Rome in 1990 to hugish M gig..........i of course snuck into a 'knowledge only' hour-way up in a balcony up top......and this way down below in front of the stage was being carried out as if in horizontal hysterix and a straight jacket-like 14 men were restraining him while carrying him exit stage left.........

it reminded me of a nutty southern baptist ceremony i saw as a kid......and that everyone sees on tv with televangelism......

maybe you happened to be there too!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 06:50:58 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: which one? sounds like you are in a big city
Message:
Just a wild guess don't get weird i'm not checking or anything too lazy to do that! Just feeling the atmosphere.
and.. I didn't get to Rome either. We were the dreaded outcasts.the HOUSEHOLDERS. they did their damnedest cause I was one of those 'cute' sisters the ashram guys always liked to watch my kids for some reason :) and so they were always raising funds and getting me to those things I half didn't want to go to.
But Rome was beyond even lust.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 15:57:46 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: which one?
Message:
i think i may have confused you?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 18:30:16 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: I thought that was poncho!
Message:
Raina,
Hahahahahaha! I can't spell to save my life!!!
Oh well.
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 22:03:07 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: mama yo caro. mama yo caro. mama i yo
Message:
mama caro caro i.....

do you remeber that song from the Ricky's tropicano?

for some reaso french is easier for me than spanish.....
in spanish i feel easily lost....(even to take a guess)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 03:15:36 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: i know every I Love Lucy episode ever made
Message:
I thought it was 'mama yo quiero, mama yo quiero'..Oh god the image of lucille ball doing that bit cracks me up. I saw a show about her on cable (one of those shows that reveals the 'real truth' about the stars) Her children said she was always working. I guess she spent more time with little ricky than with them. Oh well, I still think she was the greatest comedienne of all time.

'honey I'm home from the club!'--my husband says this every night, it cracks me up.

Katie gave me a 'Lucy at the chocolate factory' doll for Christmas--I love it!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 03:33:09 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: i know every I Love Lucy episode ever made
Message:
Dear Helen and Raina,
The words from that song have been just past the edge of my memory since I first saw your post Raina and it has been driving me nuts. Now I remember it. Sheesh! Between aging, genetics and ricola my memory doesn't stand a chance!

''honey I'm home from the club!'--my husband says this every night, it cracks me up.'
It is just so great to read this and to know your husband (don't know if you've used his name here) too, I can so picture him saying that!!! Now I just have to see your house to picture where he says it! :)
Love,
Robyn

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 06:21:49 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: i know every I Love Lucy episode ever made
Message:
did any of you all see Blast From the Past? It was really funny-even has some culty-jokes stuff......really subtle and dry most of the time....i roared....
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 15:54:38 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: i know every I Love Lucy episode ever made
Message:
Raina,
No, I'll have to check it out if they have it at our countrybumpkinville movie store, somehow, I doubt it! :)
That phrase reminds me of my daughter Jade, about 10, aswering a knock at the door. The man there was someone I worked with maybe 4 months earlier and she couldn't remember his name. A chip off the old block she is :). So she says, 'Mom, it's for you, a blast from the past.' God that was funny. :)
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 03:35:52 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: i know every I Love Lucy episode ever made
Message:
Robyn I am still up! I got a second wind!!
Yes, the other thing Gary says is 'Lucy you've got some 'splaining to do!'
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 03:58:50 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: i know every I Love Lucy episode ever made
Message:
Dear Helen,
See! I knew it! So sorry I woke you. God I have a thing about that, I hate to wake people. My mother would wake, I was going to say us, but it wasn't my sisters, just me. She'd say she didn't want to be the only one up. It was creepy.
Anyway enough of strolling down memory lane! :) Have a great weekend.
Love,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 16:25:26 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: it is a poncho
Message:
80 miles from the border. and suitcasees packed just in case :)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 21:59:21 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: see how nice i really am?! always willing to be
Message:
Miss Informed......
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 17:50:22 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: Elaine Pagels 'The Gnostic Gospels'
Message:
There is so much more to this, Raina. Indulge me if I quote some Alvin Boyd Kuhn (and I hope you can persevere with reading most of it):




'The corruption and final loss of the basic meaning of these scriptures has been, in the whole of time, the greatest tragedy in human history. Like Shakespeare’s tide, which, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune, but, omitted, casts all the rest of life in shoals and quicksands, the wreckage of the Esoteric Gnosis in the
centuries following Plato’s day, culminating in the debacle of all philosophical religion about the third century of Christianity’s development and ushering in sixteen centuries of the Dark Ages, has thrown all religion out of basic relation to true understanding and caused it to breed an endless train of evils, fanaticisms, bigotries, idiosyncrasies, superstitions, wars and persecutions that more than anything else blacken the record of man’s historic struggle toward the light. The present (1940) most frightful of all historical barbarities owes its incidence directly to the decay of ancient philosophical knowledge and the loss of vision and virtue that would have attended its perpetuation.

What, then, must be the importance of a book which restores to the scriptures of ancient wisdom the lost light of their true original meaning?
. . . . . . .

Three ancient and long-discredited sciences have had a surprising renaissance in popular fancy and scientific interest: symbolism, alchemy, astrology. The last has particularly come into a general vogue, but on a basis which still inclines conservative positivism in science and scholarship to regard it as allied closely with 'popular superstition.' In its predictive or
'fortune-telling' aspect it is generally looked at askance. But there is another side on which it has pertinence and value that has not been recognized in the modern revival and on which perhaps its most legitimate claim to consideration rests. This is its function as symbolic theology. Unquestionably cosmic operation, cosmic significance, lie behind the twelve
constellations of the zodiac and the thirty-six or more other stellar configurations. The planisphere or chart of the heavens was doubtless the first of all Bibles, pictorially edited. Not quite simply and directly but intrinsically, all Bibles are amplifications and elaborations of the original volume of ideography first written on the open face of the sky, charted in the zodiac and heavenly maps, and later transferred to earth and written in scrolls and parchments. Man was instructed to fashion his new body of spiritual glory 'after the pattern of things in the heavens,' the heavenly or zodiacal man. And a graph of the structure and history of this celestial Personage was sketched by the enlightened sages in the configurated star clusters.

Zodiac comes from the Greek word zodion, a small living image, signifying that it is a graph of the microcosmic life of man, which is cast in the form of the macrocosmic life of the universe, or of God. Man’s own small body is a replica of this body of God, made in its image and likeness. The vast frame of Cosmic Man was outlined in the scroll of the heavens, the solar systems and galaxies being living cell clusters in his immense organism.

A deal of this adumbrative symbology elucidating theological doctrinism is set forth in the body of the present work. But there is a group of its data that strikes so deeply into the heart of general theology that it is given here at the outset for the sake of its overwhelming impressiveness. It must prove to be so conclusive an evidence that Biblical theology rests more solidly than has ever been believed on zodiacal backgrounds that its presentation will be admittedly a matter of great moment. It traces the unsuspected significance of two of the twelve signs, Virgo and Pisces, in the very heart of New Testament narrative. Let the reader picture before him the ordinary zodiac, with the house of Virgo at the western equinox point and that of Pisces directly opposite on the eastern side. The simple fact that they stand six months apart will presently be seen to assume great importance in Gospel determination.

The exposition must begin with the puzzling and hitherto unexplained item of ancient religious myth, that the Christs, the Sun-Gods, the Messiahs, all were depicted as having two mothers. How, one asks, could there possibly be rational significance in this? It has been put aside as just some more of the mythical rubbish and nonsense of early Paganism. The profundity of pagan intelligence, hiding sublime cosmic truth under glyph and symbol, has not been dreamed of.

The depiction should not have created incredulity, seeing that the Gospel Jesus himself, dramatic figure of the divine principle in man, announced it categorically in declaring to Nicodemus that 'ye must be born again.' Nicodemus asks if this means that we must enter a second time into our mother’s body and experience a second birth in the natural manner.
Jesus replies that we 'must be born of water and the spirit.' Attention must be directed a moment to the fact that the Latin word spiritus, translated 'spirit' in many passages, means as well 'air' or 'breath.' One of the great keys to Bible meaning is the series of the four 'elements' of ancient mythicism: earth, water, air and fire. The body of the physical or natural man
was conceived as being composed of the two lower, earth and water, while air and fire, representing mind and spirit, commingled to make the higher or spiritual man. Jesus’ statement to Nicodemus, then, could have been rendered, 'born of water and air.' And John the Baptist uses three of the four elements when he states that he, the forerunner of the Christos, and therefore a type of the lower natural man, indeed baptizes us with water (omitting earth), but that there cometh after him
one higher than himself who shall baptize us with the holy spiritus (air) and with fire. Jesus thus affirms that we have two births, necessitating two mothers, and John the Baptist adds that we must have two baptisms.

Since man’s spirit is an indestructible fragment of God’s own mighty Spirit, truly a tiny spark of that cosmic Intelligence and Love which we call the Mind of God, the ancients typified the divine element in man by fire and in contrast the lower or human element by water. The fiery soul of man is housed in a tenement of flesh and matter which is seven-eighths water by
actual composition! The crossing of the rivers and seas and the immersion of solar heroes in water in olden mythologies, and the rite of baptism in theology, signified nothing beyond the fact of the soul’s immersion in a physical body of water nature in its successive incarnations.

Now man is distinctly a creature compounded of two natures, a higher and a lower, a spiritual and a sensual, a divine and a human, a mortal and an immortal, and finally a fiery and a watery, conjoined in a mutual relationship in the organic body of flesh. Says Heraclitus: 'Man is a portion of cosmic fire, imprisoned in a body of earth and water.' Speaking of man Plato affirms: 'Through body it is an animal; through intellect it is a god.' To create man God incarnated the fiery spiritual principle of his life in the watery confines of material bodies. That is
the truest basic description of man that anthropology can present. All problems spring from that foundation and are referable for solution back to it.

Man is, then, a natural man and a god, in combination. Our natural body gives the soul of man its baptism by water; our nascent spiritual body is to give us the later baptism by fire! We are born first as the natural man; then as the spiritual. Or we are born first by water and then by fire. Of vital significance at this point are two statements by St. Paul: 'That was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural'; and, 'First that which is natural, then that which is spiritual.' Again he says: 'For the natural man comprehendeth not the things of the spirit
of God, neither can he.' Of course not; for he is not yet in that higher kingdom of evolution, and he must be transformed, transfigured, lifted up into a superior world of consciousness before he can cognize spiritual things. Evolution will thus transform him, and nothing else will.

Using astrological bases for portraying cosmic truths, the ancients localized the birth of the natural man in the zodiacal house of Virgo and that of the spiritual man in the opposite house of Pisces. These then were the houses of the two mothers of life. The first was the Virgin Mother (Virgo), the primeval symbol of the Virgin Mary thousands of years B.C. Virgo gave man his natural birth by water and became known as the Water-Mother; Pisces (the Fishes by name) gave him his birth by the Fish and was denominated the Fish-Mother. The virgin mothers are all identified with water as symbol and their various names, such as Meri, Mary, Venus (born of the sea-foam), Tiamat, Typhon and Thallath (Greek for 'sea') are designations for
water. On the other side there are the Fish Avatars of Vishnu, such as the Babylonian Ioannes, or Dagon, and the Assyrian goddess Atergatis was called 'the Fish-Mother.' Virgo stood as the mother of birth by water, or the birth of man the first, of the earth, earthy; Pisces stood as the mother of birth by spirit or fire, or the birth of man the second, described by St. Paul as 'the Lord from heaven.' Virgo was the water-mother of the natural man, Pisces the fish-mother of the spiritual man.'

There must now be brought out an unrevealed significance of the fish symbol in the zodiac and in mythical religion. It is of astonishing import. Water is the type of natural birth because all natural birth proceeds in and from water. All first life originated in the sea water. The fish is a birth in and from the water, and it stands patently as the generic type of organic life issuing out of inorganic! The fish typifies life embodied in a physical organic structure. Organic life is born out of the water, and is the first birth, child of the water-mother. And if organic
life is in turn to become mother, its child will be mind and spiritual consciousness, son of the fish-mother! In brief, water is the mother of natural physical being, and organic structure becomes the later mother of divine mind.

Further scrutiny of such data brings to light links of connection with the Bible. The chief one is found in the symbol of bread in connection with both Virgo and Pisces. Pisces is the house of the Fishes by name, but it is not commonly known that Virgo in astrological symbology was the house of Bread. This is indicated by several items of ancient typology. Many centuries ago in the precession of the equinoxes, the end of the year was marked by the position of the great Dog-Star Sirius, mighty celestial symbol of the divinity in man. Precisely at midnight of December 24 it stood on the meridian line from the zenith to Egypt. At the same moment there arose on the eastern horizon the constellation of the Virgin, bearing in her left
arm the Christ child, symbol of the Christhood coming to function in man, and in her right hand the great star Spica (Latin, a head, or 'spike' of wheat), symbol of that same divinity coming as celestial food for man. It must ever be remembered that the Gospel Jesus told us we had virtually to eat his body as food, and drink his blood, if we would inherit eternal life. So
typism represented him as coming in the form of man, the babe Christ, and as food for man, the wheat. John speaks of the Christ principle in the words: 'This is that bread which came down from heaven, that if a man eat of it he shall hunger no more.' Jesus broke a loaf into fragments and gave to his disciples, saying that it was his body, broken for them.

We now have Virgo established as the house of Bread and Pisces as the house of Fish. But the characterization of the two houses must be brought along to a more specific evolutionary reference. What are these 'houses,' thus delineated? They are, as at first, the two states of matter, but now to be taken in immediate reference to the life of man on earth. They are in the
final stage of the meaning man’s body itself, which consists of matter in both its invisible and its visible forms. For man has a natural body and a spiritual body. Man’s body itself houses the two mothers. The body is this double house of Bread and of Fish.

And the next link is seen when it is considered that this physical body is for the soul the house of death and in its regenerative phase, the house of rebirth. It is the house into which the spirit descends to its partial obscuration in the darkness of the grave of matter, into the night of death, or incarnation, out of which it is to arise in a new birth or resurrection on the opposite side of the cycle. A significant passage from the Book of the Dead recites: 'Who cometh forth from the dusk, and whose birth is in the house of death'--referring to the incarnating soul. In a spiritual sense the soul 'dies' on entering the body in incarnation, but has a new birth in it as it later resurrects from it. The body is therefore the house of his death and rebirth, or the place of his crucifixion and resurrection.

And the Egyptians had a name for the body as the locus of these transformations, which carry the central meaning of all theologies. This name now rises out of the dim mists of ancient Egyptian books to enlighten all modern Bible comprehension. This city of the body, where the sun of soul sank to its death on the cross of matter, to rearise in a new birth, was called the
city of the sun, or in Greek, Heliopolis, but in the Egyptian, ANU. The name was given to an actual Egyptian city, where the rites of the death, burial and resurrection of Osiris or Horus were enacted each year; but the name bore a theological significance before it was given to a geographical town.

The name is obviously made up of NU, the name for the mother heaven, or empty space, or abyss of nothingness, and Alpha privative, meaning, as in thousands of words, 'not.' A-NU would then mean 'not-nothingness,' or a world of concrete actuality, the world of physical substantial manifestation. Precisely such a world it is in which units of virginal consciousness go to their death and rise again. A-NU is then the physical body of man on earth. The soul descends out of the waters of the abyss of the NUN, or space in its undifferentiated unity, which is the sign and name of all things negative. The NUN is indeed our 'none.' Life in the completeness of its unity is negative. To become positively manifest it must differentiate itself into duality, establish positive-negative tension, and later split up into untold multiplicity. This brings out the significance of the Biblical word 'multiply.' Life can not manifest itself in concrete forms until it multiplies itself endlessly. Unit life of deity must break itself up into infinite fragments in order to fill empty space with a multitude of worlds and beings of different natures. The primal Sea or Mother must engender a multitudinous progeny, to spawn the limitless shoals of organic fish-worlds. This is the meaning of the promise given to Abraham, that his seed
should multiply till it filled the earth with offspring countless as the sands of the seashore. And if life was symboled by bread, as the first birth, and by fish, as the second, then we might expect to find in old religious typology the allegory of a Christ figure multiplying loaves and fishes! Are we surprised to find that the Gospel Jesus does this very thing, multiplying the fish loaves and two small fishes to feed a multitude!

This is astonishing enough in all conscience, but it yields in wonder to the next datum of Comparative Religion which came to our notice as a further tie between the Bible and antecedent Egyptian mythology. Who can adequately measure the seriousness of the challenge which this item of scholarship presents to Gospel historicity? For a discovery of sensational interest came to light when a passage was found in the Book of the Dead which gave to Anu the characteristic designation, 'the place of multiplying bread'! Here in the long silent tomes of old Egypt was found the original, the prototype, of the miracle of the loaves and the fishes in the Gospels of Christianity. And a meaning never before apprehended had to be read into this New Testament wonder. At last we were instructed to catch in the miracle the sense that the physical body, as A-NU, was the place where the corpus of the Christ’s deific power was broken into an infinite number of fragments and distributed out among a multitude of creatures, enhungered after a three-days’ fast, or deprivation of the food of spiritual life in their sojourn in the three kingdoms, the mineral, vegetable and animal, before reaching the plane of mind. Here are all the elements of the inner meaning of the Christian Eucharist: the broken but multiplied fragments of the body of the god, distributed to feed hungry humanity. And as humanity is composed
of twelve groups of divine conscious units, there were gathered up twelve baskets of fragments! And this episode of the Christ’s ostensible life is found to be Egyptian in origin and meaning and symbolic in character!

But new implications arise and lead us on to more startling disclosures. The Hebrews came along and appropriated Egyptian material. They picked up the name ANU and fitting it back into its zodiacal setting as Virgo, they called it the 'house of Bread.' This required their adding to ANU their word for 'house,' which, as anyone knows, is Beth. This yields us
Beth-Anu. Now it is a fact of common philological knowledge that the ancient Greek and Egyptian 'U' is rendered as 'Y' when the words are brought over into English. The 'U' became a 'Y,' and Beth-Anu now stands before us as the Bethany of the Gospels! Bethany is thus just the sign of Virgo, as the 'house of Bread,' the home of the great star Spica, the head of
wheat!

But let us say 'house of Bread' in ordinary Hebrew. What further astonishment strikes us here, as we find it reads Beth-Lehem (Lechem, Lekhem), for lechem, lekhem, is bread in everyday Hebrew. The Christ was born in Bethany or Bethlehem, the astrological 'house of Bread.' (Later it seems that the two signs, Virgo and Pisces, and their symbols, bread and fish, were almost interchangeably confused or commingled in the symbolic imagery. This was natural, since the two signs represented the same body of man in its two aspects of dying and being reborn, and the two processes are confusedly interblended.)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 18:17:00 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: it's the lost arc
Message:
it's the treasure chest.

thankyou so much

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 18:11:29 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: of course i will read it....but
Message:
in order to save time for myself in my short life-i thought you might be interested to know something about the way my mind works?

When you write '...Raina, there's so much more to this' my brain clicks into 'this can wait' mode. And while i am in the middle of getting ready to go out (my plans are ALWAYS changeable) i don't allow any question or statement to distract from the previous train of thought you know? (unless war gets declared of course....that's always hard to walk away from).

Cause obviously you know too that when someone, anyone TELLS you what you need to understand (after the first 2 years of life perhaps!).....it's better to run!!!!

I apologize if i'm ever not as clear as i should be-when i write online, rarely do i ever see it as the phone with a keyboard....i'm not looking for a teacher's grade on my grammar and form....

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 20:26:00 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: No pressure. It can wait as long as you (nt)
Message:
No pressure. It can wait as long as you (nt)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 22:45:14 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: No pressure. It can wait as long as you (nt)
Message:
no-that's what i meant about 'the lost arc' and treasure chest etc....
it was wonderful-i misinterpreted your opening sentence (you know that feeling when someone says 'but!' when you didn't say anything one can say 'but!' to?).....i didn't get the 'urgency' meaning....it's so sad............there's SO much too it..........i so agree......
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 17:32:22 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: raina
Subject: Elaine Pagels 'The Gnostic Gospels'
Message:
I read the 'Gnostic Gospels' by Pagels a couple of years ago. It's a great read! Did you know that the Gnostic Christians are still alive and well, and they have a website of their own? Check it out.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 18:20:57 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Elaine Pagels 'The Gnostic Gospels'
Message:
Mili,

How do you feel about 10 year old Jesus killing a child who threw a rock at him? Do you think that may have actually happenned, or do you just chalk it up as so much hearsay, like Maharaji being an alcoholic who bogarts joints and sleeps with a mistress?

lie-la-lie
still a man hears what he wants to hear
and disregards the rest

lie-la-lie-lie-lie-lie-lie

Paul Simon, The Boxer

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 23:09:52 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Elaine Pagels 'The Gnostic Gospels'
Message:
hi...oh! this isn;t GeRrY?......?anyway

I believe some tell the story as if to say that Jesus was so angry that (as the 10 yr old) all he did was point his arm/finger sternly and say 'DEAD!' and the little boy who threw the rock just dropped and died.

Maybe Jesus was the original comic book character? (mass media type Marvel DC type)...this wasn't the joke i think i was going for.....but i'm gonna leave it......

whether or not it's 'nonsensical' or if it's comparable to maharaji is less the point than understanding how ancient people were broadening their (our) conceptual verizons.....were things started going downhill and why excatly etc (oh shit I thought i was writing to hazdem here! sorry....nevermind!)

(first 3 P's were to you though...(P's and sentences...whatever)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 11:10:14 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: Elaine Pagels 'The Gnostic Gospels'
Message:
Actually, raina, I was just curious if Mili would accept the notion that Jesus was a 10 year old murderer, for which there is NO evidence, as compared to Maharaji being an alcoholic, a doobie hog, and an adulterer, for which there are living eyewitnesses. But I guess I'll never know. Mili doesn't seem interested in dealing with the question.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 15:44:29 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: consumed by my own evidence?
Message:
perhaps i'm so consumed by my own evidence? but i live by the 'No Second Hand Information' rule....(one of few). Gotta see it with my own eyes (my ears are DAMN good though too!).
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 17:17:00 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: Doubting Thomas?
Message:
Gotta see it with my own eyes (my ears are DAMN good though too!).

I find this to be conditional with people, raina. It depends who you are talking about. Say, a cop shows up at your door and tells you your child has just been arrested for armed robbery. You probably wouldn't believe it at first. But if you heard that somebody else's child was arrested for the same crime, you'd probably have no trouble believing it. It's the same with premies and Maharaji. He's God to them. He can do no wrong. Even if somebody like a Mike Donner, who smoked weed with Maharaji, or Bob Mishler, who claims Maharaji would weep on his shoulder while innebriated, reveal Maharaji's less than divine nature, premies will automatically doubt it. But they probably would have no trouble believing allegations made of other gurus. There's no emotional investment there which they stand to lose. So, it's kind of conditional what you will accept when you hear bad things about people and what you won't.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 22:10:41 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Doubting Thomas?
Message:
re: (what you wrote)

I find this to be conditional with people, raina. It depends who you are talking
about. Say, a cop shows up at your door and tells you your child has just been
arrested for armed robbery. You probably wouldn't believe it at first. But if you
heard that somebody else's child was arrested for the same crime, you'd
probably have no trouble believing it.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Why would I believe anything because of anything? and why would anyone tell anyone what they would believe anyway?

I could write 1000 scenarios proving or disproving anything. The point might be made quicker by repaeting with an emphasis on that word ANYTHING.

(Stopped reading after that)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 19:32:11 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: Doubting Thomas?
Message:
If you go by your 'have to see it with my own eyes' how do you know when there is a sale on at K-mart? Do you beleive the advertisement circular is LYING?????

Seriously, raina, are you saying that you don't believe eyewitness acounts of an event? Do you really think all experience is that subjective?? If so, how can you trust your own recounting of an event to someone else? Do you really think we are all so isolated and singular in our interpretations and experiences?

So if Jean Michel and I meet and he tells me some things he experienced as an initiator, and I trust him to be a reliable narrator and interpreter of events, I shouldn't beleive him? I think that is preposterous!! How can you trust anyone with that idea?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 20:39:30 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Yes I believe advertisers lie. Call me naive.
Message:
The fact that i can not even be sure to trust my OWN recall 100%
is exactly the point....not to pretend to trust blindly 'blind faith' etc.
is so vital......and the times we're we 'can't resist'? voila? fate?

Dontcha think that's why you HAVE to see the body of a 'loved' one for example when they die....
some people's families have no reason to be 'paranoid' some people's familie's do...
it's so strange how the families that don't have to be, might be the cops who saw to it that the 'paranoid family's' relative from Internal Affairs Division appears to die by cleaning the bathtub........but that's the reality! Even if some families are in their own little blissdom. Good for them-ya-but why do they need to protect their blissdom by calling the bravest sacrificing souls 'conspiracy theorists'? YOU KNOW WHY? because if a member of their family caught a cop on video tape killing someone, and ended up dead for it? that brave person's family might discover that the depth of their love for that person was as deep as a cop showing up at their door telling them that their son shot himself, and we cremated him for you! 'How very thoughtful of you.' says the blissdom family............

of course i believe someone's 'eyewitness account' as you said, to the extent that they are not affecting other's lives, or manipulating other's lives....even innocently....like if someone 'sees' the virgin mary....sure! i believe they believe they saw it! best a luck to ya hun!

in a place where she might see the 'Virgin' I might see Gary Cineste being sucked into timelessness....simultaneaously calming and suffocating......????

of course i'm not saying that we're disconnected...the opposite actually....
that all the subtle levels of 'advertsing' that do go on, get in the way of us hearing each other...(almost chronic really)


Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 02:05:40 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: Yes I believe advertisers lie. Call me naive.
Message:
Ya saw the Virgin Mary? best of luck to ya hun!!--ha ha!! That was funny.

On topic again, Sure don't trust police or advertisers, whatever, I just meant, do you trust your friends, a least a little?

Totally off topic--did you see Francis Ford Coppola's 'Dracula'--when Gary Oldman who was Dracula cried tears and they were diamonds.....Gary SInese and him I always get mixed up.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 03:12:56 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: why do i hear Brian Stoker's Dracula?
Message:
i love gary oldman-although i come close to suddenly taking that back from sounding like public declaration of an sos online....no-i'll leave it-i am proud of my love! my immortal beloved.....and all that ......

are you friends with K-Mart?

i hate to say it but, at this point it feels like i only trust 'my' friends when i get bored or want to go outside and play....it's sort of like Biosphere with feelings. I have to learn to heal my own! (which is hardly silly childsplay, this depletion of oxygen prevention...) i feel like i've been gradually being strangled for a good ten years or so....a squeeze gigantique. sometimes a frankenstein experiment that is ironically about 'love'...

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 17:59:26 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: 2 kewl! thanx mili
Message:
i just found out that the gnostic society's 'annual epiphany celebreation' is my birthday! makes ya feel wholly ya gno/know/no!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 18:16:38 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: raina
Subject: 2 kewl! thanx mili
Message:
You're really sweet, ya gno? ;o)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 16:33:14 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: Oh and...
Message:
Did anyone see Shirley McLaine on Good Morning Am?

Charlie Gibson asks 'why is it so hard for some people to believe the things you are talking about - like a friend of mine does?'
SM-' Is she religious?'
CG-'Yes.'
SM-'Well,that's why. There's a big difference between religious and spirtual.'

Sorry,raina - your post on religions reminded me of this.I pretty much dislike all religions - you're right - money making businesses - keep the masses ignorant and controllable - take out anything we feel like out of the Bible. Like the Reader's Digest.

Elaine

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 17:41:17 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: 'sorry' you say? about?
Message:
what exactly?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 19:16:13 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: 'sorry' you say? about?
Message:
oh just I may have veered off onto my own tangent.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 22:47:03 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: i figured-but wanted to make sure! (nt)
Message:
jkl
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 16:24:06 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: Elaine Pagels 'The Gnostic Gospels'
Message:
I'm reading all about the Gnostics right now - - didn't know they had been into a feminine aspect of God so much.One of the reasons it says they were banned or something...still reading.

And there are plenty of stories taken out of the bible,that's for sure.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 16:24:04 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: too sleepy to answer
Message:
but I answered you below....
time for a diet pep

one thing though. did M ever believe his dream do you think? and if so did he still after 25 years?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 17:38:18 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: you're the best
Message:
that's it! my point exactly!
no one can know what anyone thinks!
(without a WHOLE lotta effort. wasn't that a led zepplin song? did i ever tell you that jon bonham and i are emailing?)

love and piece!
Ra Ra

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 18:00:32 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: and Monica Lewis and I have the same
Message:
aesthetician. She tells me a certain who goes in for electrolysis and how often.
Hey ask him next time you email if Helena Bohham is related. Loved her Marla character.
god now I am speeding AND still alsleep. What ever happened to the good stuff? these herbal placebos are not doing it.
gotta verk now.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 18:14:08 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: and Monica Lewis and I have the same
Message:
Erb Rewls was my uncle.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 22:50:28 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: and Monica Lewis and I have the same
Message:
no way!
6 degrees of seperation?!

ya uncle Herb was the dude.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 22:53:50 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: but I think her name is Monique no?
Message:
not keeping up these days
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 23:12:05 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: oh? no secret lingo attempts here...just being sil
Message:
ly.....

sure! monique! why not!
(please keep in mind i have no idea what this meant!)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 23:15:12 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: I read here that someone said that they heard that
Message:
someone said M had a mistress named, I think Monique Lewis.
I may have the name wrong. And I may be one or two someone's too removed or not enough removed or whatnot.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 01:16:06 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: I read here that someone said that they heard that
Message:
'removed or not enough removed or whatnot.'????
what do you mean to say by this?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 04:02:04 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: 6 degrees of Kevin bacon
Message:
she's making a play on the words 'six degrees of separation', right Selene? See, you CAN figure out how a person's mind works.(-; Great to see you back raina. Was it Selene's and my posts that brought you back or was it Jesus pointing his finger 'go back to the forum, raina, for more mind-twisting fun!' (or did you just decide to take a break and then decided to come back?)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 04:22:51 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: 6 degrees of Kevin bacon
Message:
yes helen, your kindness is almost irresistable!
but i did see jesus wink at me 2 years ago.
(have you ever seen that site?
http://www.WinkingJesus.com/)
i would imagine it's an xpremie fave?

i'm not sure i'd agree with you about the
'you can see how a mind works'(?) thing?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 16:18:09 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: KEVIN BACON'S MUSIC makes him a murderer
Message:
exactly how fucking detached must he be to put that shit crap ass-sucking trash in ear shot of his fellow human beings?

if you ever want to see me get 'slowly i turn' play a Kevin Bacon and His 'Bro' song....
i actually recorded him performing on the Rosie show(?) or something to use for a
an anthropology class/analysis of FUCKED up money wasting, people using, connection buying criminiality in the 'entertainment' industry.....

he should go to jail for that shit-and i never want to see anyone ever go to jail, unless they dismembered their family members......

see? see how nutz the idea of kevin bacon makes me!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 04:10:06 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: gotta break in here and say something to you helen
Message:
as Katie said to me
I *really* like this new you.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 22:50:36 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: gotta break in here and say something to you helen
Message:
What you like my new hair color--it's medium ash blonde--oh, you mean the badder bitchier Helen?????
(-:}
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 23:07:36 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: hair color too
Message:
can't see it but I know how it goes
gets lighter as time goes on... heh
But... yes.
I always knew her. Never saw her here so much though. I guess we all get fed up sooner or later. good.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 03:19:01 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: that not so fresh feeling
Message:
Like a beautiful butterfly emerging from its chrysalis, I found my true wings in being a bitch!

How the hell do you spell chrysalis that looks like a fucking Chrysler

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 03:39:47 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: being a bitch is just being yourself after being
Message:
fucked over. I LOVE it. why repress it? THAT only makes a bigger bitch with ulcers later. who needs that?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 03:51:50 (GMT)
From: oh yeah and..
Email: None
To: helen
Subject: don't feel bad I can't spell corolla either
Message:
and I've had the thing almost a year now.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 02:04:40 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: that I don't have the facts on this
Message:
I read about M's mistress on here. But didn't follow the threads closely enough to know how much was fact vs. conjecture.
that's all.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 04:14:30 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: that I don't have the facts on this
Message:
if i were sherlock holmes
and needed to venture a hypathetical
(or in this case perhaps hypo)
I might have a vision of someone
with a french accent putting a
timely twist on the name 'monica'
to create a party atmosphere (attempting good
humour) camraderie joke about a shared
targets reputation....

does this possibly make any sense?
(of course i don't pretend to be able to
tell whether i might be making that
theory up or not etc.)!

it's funny, i purposely avoided telling hamzen that i knew anything about mahargi's references to Pancho Villa (i think i remember once hearing his wife cry repeating an old joke about that etc.....obviously i can figure out that aspect of his question up on top there) ...so it's interesting to me that someone (robyn?-not sure) felt moved to reach out with a tone of 'remember the good old daze'-even if it had an edge to it. somehow this seem contradictary to this site in a way? maybe not.

I do that a lot i think. in an attempt to ask/get someone to question the functioning of their own selves in their own minds....at the risk of the mental deficient act sticking.....

is there a competition going on for deepest hole bored going on that i never knew i was supposed to be playing? (not just here-but in my whole fucking life)?

'god is a bullet have mercy on us everyone'
-concrete blonde's first hit....(one of the few?)

do you remember them?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 04:26:12 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: loved conceted blonde!! and missed that one song!!
Message:
shit raina I saw them here in their very early years. when she SO GOOD. won ticets in a radio show contest!! brought a friend she was so bummed. asked me what was I thinking said that woman was a junkie I said to her yeah maybe buy so what?? Did you even listen to those lyrics? she never did get it but it's ok.

But I hope at least I cleared up my mystery that was not meant to be one. somehow I thought for stupid reasons that you knew or had read the mistress theads - which is what you have been trying to say isn't it? that people assume?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 05:19:53 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: guess what phase i was going thru when i gave that
Message:
tape (concrete blonde) away.....

i would LOVE to hear that song right now...

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 05:25:42 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: can't even imagine, I LOST mine. fuck...
Message:
I think a 'giving away phase' must have been even worse than a losing the tape one though, no? Was it during the M daze?

I thought I had all their tapes. which one was it?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 16:26:31 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: first (commercial) release
Message:
i believe....it was their first (MTV video thing)

ya, during the M daze.....actually i think someone co-opted it and i just 'didn't mind' if you know what i mean! spiritual looting you could say!? maybe not.

I was dying to hear the song last night because i can't remember the other lyrix!!!
and i've only heard it on the radio (about 3 years ago?) ONCE in like 11 years! (i think i first heard it in 1989...............GOD IS A BULLET HAVE MERCY ON US EVERYONE........the singer did a few solo albums (that song 'JOEY'....didn't do it for me.....i'm rarely a devoted 'good-times and bad' lifelong fan with musicians..........)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 16:35:36 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: oh thats too bad. I lost almost all my music then
Message:
Along with my baby pictures. And my 20's.
They did some older stuff
one called just Concrete Blonde has a great one called
Dancing On The Edge the 'hit' from it was 'Still in Hollywood'
the soundtrack was used for a strange horror flick. Can't remember the name. An alien inhabits people. Michael Nouri is in it. And Kyle watshisname from Twin Peaks. M Nouri is/was a premie.
I am so full of this trivia.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 22:14:36 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: it doesn't seem possible that one could loose thei
Message:
their 20s. 30s yes. 40's maybe. 50's no way okmaybe......
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 23:12:53 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: I did.
Message:
Met the guru and my ex at the same time. when I was 17.
Sounds like a Sinatra song doean't it?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 16:08:18 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: I did.
Message:
was your x the one who introduced you to m?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 17:17:02 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: yes he did and you didn't confuse me about rome
Message:
Thought I'd combine the two topics since this thread is getting huge.
My ex was a piece of work. Very adept at giving satsang to the sisters. He told me about maharaji when I was 8 months pregneant with his baby. And reading books about yoga. one of the books I was reading said 'When the student is ready the Master will appear' Now, being that pregneant and that young makes one very - as I said in my brainwashing comment that wasn't intellectual enough for anyone but you to give the time of day to - vulnerable. Next day I got a letter from the guy (we had been seperated) telling me 'please call the most extraordinary thing has happened I met this boy this 13 year old boy blah blah.'
And so it goes.........
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 18:59:49 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: yes he did and you didn't confuse me about rome
Message:
i thought you were going to say that your husband was a Gopi gatherer for M....
like the guy who screwed me over.....i lost everything because of this guy NOT because of M -maybe that's why i don't fully blame M......

so if you han't been thru all the mess
do you think you'd still be the same smart cool person
only better?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 19:13:31 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: very good questions
Message:
Where to place blame. Alcoholic parents? Fate? random dumb luck? A creep for an ex husband? I look at the M years like I was riding on a highway and took an exit for 12 years.
What highway though? Wasn't it a lost highway anyway? and was it a wrong exit? But you are right, it may have helped in ways. It definitely gives me an interesting perspective on life. And, I don't fully place blame on the gooroo. Which puts me at oods here often. As for me being smart and cool that's nice of you to say that but it isn't the case at all. I can tell you have been through a LOT. do hypothetical questions and answers ever help?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 20:53:27 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: shit ya!
Message:
i LOVE hypothetical!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 19:29:44 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: ps
Subject: 12 years? who am I kidding, more like 25!
Message:
M involvement I mean
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 16:54:54 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: the movie
Subject: it was called 'The Hidden' I think
Message:
I should do some work I suppose. And I think i'm depressed.
Damned hormones. Might be back later.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 04:32:35 (GMT)
From: Selene the typist
Email: None
To: whoever!!
Subject: and yes that heading was a typo concrete blonde!!
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 15:52:31 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Watch out when you buy LOTU from Amazon
Message:
now when I click on 'my recommendations' they are trying to sell me Deepak Chopkra!

yech!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 16:09:16 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Deepak
Message:
Susan,
You don't like Deepak? I thumbed thru his 'Path of Love' book and ended up buying it. Thought it was good. My first by him.
Something I should know about him?
Thanks,Elaine
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 13:51:24 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Elaine
Subject: Yeah - he writes stuff like this:
Message:
'Where nature goes to create stars, galaxies, quarks and leptons, you and I go to create ourselves.'

--Deepak Chopra

I mean, sure, it sounds mighty clever and wise, but it's not as if it actually means anything...

Or does it?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 14:42:27 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Yeah - he writes stuff like this:
Message:
Nigel, Nigel,Nigel,

He means we go into the depths of our souls that is the beginning of all souls from the first moment we were but a twinkling in the eye of the Supreme Creator of all That Is,
to join the forces of the Ultimate creative force that resides in the innermost,secret regions of our beings,which is the secret dwelling place of all our true essences,where all is merged in complete consciousness of our One True Reality,which is that after all is said and done throughout all the ages (Yugas) what we are afterall is simply the Creator Himself.

Silly,boy.

Elaine

PS - He's talking about sex, sleep and meditation.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 14:53:55 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Elaine
Subject: Uh... right. Thanks! (nt)
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 17:27:58 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: I claim utter ignorance and apologize
Message:
I do have an instant reaction to things that sound new age of 'oh please, not again'. I will admit in this instance I know not one thing about him ( or her to tell you the truth that is how little I know ).

Good pick up Elaine.

But still, I want Amazon to recommend True Crime, History, Politics, Parenting and Children's titles to me. And pretty much in the opposite order I just listed. Now I am on the 'likes hippy dippy New age stuff' list.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 19:29:51 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: I claim utter ignorance and apologize
Message:
Oh, so you like Ann Rule I'd guess.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 17:37:12 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: I claim utter ignorance and apologize
Message:
I saw Deepak Chopra interviewed on Larry King last night and I've seen him interviewed before. He's a quintessential New-Ager and nothing he said passed my garbage-meter.

On the other hand, the previous night was Nelson Mandela, and this guy was just absolutely beautiful. He was so full of wisdom and such a joy to listen to.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 11:47:11 (GMT)
From: Happy
Email: happyheretic@hotmail.com
To: Powerman
Subject: Deepak on Larry King
Message:
I also watched Deepak Chopra on Larry King. I definitely didn't like him - didn't pass my garbage-meter either! The first book I read by him seemed pretty harmless. I read a few more, and they seemed both shallow and new-agey. He started out as a disciple of Maharishi Mahesh, btw.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 18:47:46 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: Beautifully put (nt)
Message:
a
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 15:38:26 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Ex-premies
Subject: Ex-satsangies interested in ex-premies
Message:
I often read the ex-satsangi site, which consist of ex-devotees of gurus from the same line as m claims...and saw the following message posted:

The URL of the club is
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/exsatsangisupportgroup

Message no 3279 from Zakk

You know I talk to many people on
net from many different groups
besides Radhasoami. People with
every type of problem imaginable.

The people who seem most hurt come from
Maharaji Group (ex kid guru). For some
reason these people seem to me far more
abused than any other group.

Their problems are just amazing and often
these people are very intelligent. There is
something about this group that just demolished
some people mentally. The hate just poors out
of their skin and they are mad at the world.
Often out of control. No other group I talk
to seems this far from recovery.

But, releasing anger is very good. The more
they release, the better they feel. Turning
the anger into some good jokes seems to
redirect. These poor people. These poor
poor people. My God it's incredible what
they have gone through. I hope someday one
shows up to talk openly here. Their site testimonials are remarkable. But, to talk
with them privately is truly very very scary.


Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 22:00:30 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: ALL
Subject: More ex-satsangi santsang about exs
Message:
The ex premies display such an excruciating
sense of betrayal. It is like they realize
the fullest extent of the deception they
endured, unlike any other ex's I have ever
seen. Many ex er's from other groups still
Other exs retain some positive emotions. But, ex premies
seem anihilated by their experiences right
to the bone. They feel ripped off, cheated,
scamed, like no others.

Their public statements pack astonishing
wallop. These statements seem in a class
by themselves. It was a very bold move
to have ex premie sites where people could
cut loose. The ex premie site seems to
be the premiere site above all the rest.

Best
Zak

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 16:02:45 (GMT)
From: sCaRy gErRy
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Poetry From the Darkside by gnz
Message:
These poor people,
My god what they have gone through.
The hate just pours out of their skin.

They are mad at the world,
Often out of control.
No other group I talk to seems this far from recovery.

These poor poor people.
Their testimonials are remarkable.
And to talk with them privately is truly very very scary.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 01:49:18 (GMT)
From: Sam
Email: -
To: all
Subject: Why, oh why
Message:
As a newly developing ex, Why are premies more devastated? Is it because we really thought he was god and we felt so lucky to find him or what.Any ideas???
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 11:58:44 (GMT)
From: Happy
Email: happyheretic@hotmail.com
To: Sam, Jethro
Subject: Why, oh why
Message:
Hi Jethro.
Glad you like the ex-satsangi-site. I sometimes read it, too.
Actually, A long time ago I was emailing a little with Zakk. He is a very brilliant, intelligent person. Hello, Zakk, if you read this!

And Sam, I don't know. I think it was the LOTU-trip, the toe-kissing, the ashrams - we put so much into it. But I think it also might be that due to these sites, ex-premies have been able to process things. If you study for instance ex-scientologists or ex-sai babas, I think you find exactly the same anger, the same feeling of betrayal, when the vastness of the scam dawns on you with full force. I think it is about the same in all cults. It's more a question of you, really. The more you have put into it of yourself, the more it hurts afterwards.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index