Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Mon, May 29, 2000 at 21:15:42 (GMT)
From: May 19, 2000 To: May 27, 2000 Page: 3 Of: 5


Anchor Chickie -:- Jodie Jumps Ship (Seriously OT) -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 04:36:57 (GMT)
__ JW -:- Rusell Crowe also played a gay man... -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 05:39:05 (GMT)
__ __ A.C. -:- Rusell Crowe also played a gay man... -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 15:12:22 (GMT)
__ __ raina -:- What's Ever Be Cum of Us -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 05:47:19 (GMT)
__ raina -:- AnchorChickieŽ is a Registered Trademark -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 04:55:33 (GMT)
__ __ A.C. -:- AnchorChickieŽ is a Registered Trademark -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 04:58:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ raina -:- your such a funny goofball -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 05:09:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ A.C. -:- Why, Thank Y'all - Royalties on Their Way nt -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 05:12:23 (GMT)

raina -:- can someone explain this 2 me? -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 03:11:50 (GMT)
__ Robyn -:- can someone explain this 2 me? -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 03:32:15 (GMT)
__ __ ged -:- EXPLAINED -:- Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 14:40:27 (GMT)
__ __ raina -:- no-specifically the NY part? (S.O.T) -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 03:53:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- jeziz raina you got it all balled up... -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 04:12:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ raina -:- so WABC New York is writing propaganda? -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 04:53:11 (GMT)

hamzen -:- And lastly, how was it for you? (MOT) -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 22:00:25 (GMT)
__ Helen -:- grace -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 18:10:06 (GMT)
__ __ ham -:- grace -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 20:19:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ Helen -:- grace -:- Wed, May 24, 2000 at 02:04:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ ham -:- Two states of grace -:- Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 20:32:37 (GMT)
__ Elaine -:- Grace -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 15:15:58 (GMT)
__ __ hamzen -:- Grace -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 20:33:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ Elaine -:- RE:Grace -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 21:51:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ hamzen -:- RE:Grace -:- Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 20:36:54 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- Grace -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 19:57:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ Elaine -:- Re:Grace -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 21:58:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Re:Grace -:- Wed, May 24, 2000 at 13:00:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- God -:- Wed, May 24, 2000 at 15:51:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- God -:- Wed, May 24, 2000 at 17:15:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- God -:- Wed, May 24, 2000 at 16:23:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ hamzen -:- Grace -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 20:41:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Did you get my emails? -:- Wed, May 24, 2000 at 13:05:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ ham -:- Re, re-wind, the crowd say bo selecta -:- Wed, May 24, 2000 at 23:16:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ ham -:- Great stuff ain't it!! -:- Wed, May 24, 2000 at 20:01:25 (GMT)
__ __ Robyn -:- Grace -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 19:19:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ Elaine -:- Re:Grace -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 22:09:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Re:Grace -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 22:34:30 (GMT)
__ DeProGram Anand Ji -:- And lastly, how was it for you? (MOT) -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 04:50:42 (GMT)
__ __ hamzen -:- And lastly, how was it for you? (MOT) -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 20:48:17 (GMT)
__ red butler -:- And lastly, how was it for you? (MOT) -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 02:07:34 (GMT)
__ __ hamzen -:- And don't you know that's been true!(nt) -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 20:49:47 (GMT)
__ Robyn -:- And lastly, how was it for you? (MOT) -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 00:55:26 (GMT)
__ __ ham -:- And lastly, how was it for you? (MOT) -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 03:56:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ Robyn -:- And lastly, how was it for you? (MOT) -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 10:49:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ ham -:- And lastly, how was it for you? (MOT) -:- Wed, May 24, 2000 at 20:27:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- And lastly, how was it for you? (MOT) -:- Wed, May 24, 2000 at 23:42:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- And lastly, how was it for you? (MOT) -:- Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 21:03:31 (GMT)
__ Daneane -:- In reply to both your threads... -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 00:07:25 (GMT)
__ __ hamzen -:- In reply to both your threads... -:- Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 21:14:37 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- Detachment vs. Perspective -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 18:19:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ Daneane -:- Austistic bliss -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 18:29:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Helen -:- Autistic bliss -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 18:40:14 (GMT)
__ __ Robyn -:- In reply to both your threads... -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 00:49:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ Helen -:- feelings...whoa whoa -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 18:24:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Robyn -:- feelings...whoa whoa -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 19:29:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- feelings...whoa whoa -:- Wed, May 24, 2000 at 02:09:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- feelings...whoa whoa -:- Wed, May 24, 2000 at 22:57:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Robynism rules -:- Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 02:44:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Daneane -:- Well said, Helen.(nt) -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 18:26:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ Daneane -:- In reply to both your threads... -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 16:05:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Helen -:- In reply to both your threads... -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 18:25:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mark -:- In reply to both your threads... -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 02:26:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Robyn -:- In reply to both your threads... -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 22:26:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mark A -:- In reply to both your threads... -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 23:35:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- In reply to both your threads... -:- Wed, May 24, 2000 at 23:08:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Daneane -:- In reply to both your threads... -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 16:18:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mark -:- In reply to both your threads... -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 18:04:12 (GMT)

hamzen -:- The effects of detachment -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 21:14:33 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- You're on a roll tonight Ham! -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 23:12:34 (GMT)
__ __ ham -:- It's not a full moon is it Nige? -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 23:25:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- It's not a full moon is it Nige? -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 20:01:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ ham -:- It's not a full moon is it Nige? -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 21:01:08 (GMT)
__ Jethro -:- The effects of detachment -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 21:27:06 (GMT)
__ __ ham -:- Well for a start their waddles, sorry I mean their -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 22:48:40 (GMT)

hamzen -:- As I was trying to say Raina before our little -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 20:19:23 (GMT)
__ raina -:- it's never a simple point.... -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 01:41:54 (GMT)
__ __ hamzen -:- I disagree, what a surprize! -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 02:38:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ raina -:- if this isn't kindergaarten what is it? -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 02:46:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ raina -:- p.s. -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 02:51:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- p.p.s. -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 03:06:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- no. -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 03:58:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- can i get some feedback on a fine piece a writin' -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 04:06:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- I wouldn't go that far, but it is obvious -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 21:28:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- are you claiming to be responsible for the most -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 23:51:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- More fill in required, you're getting cryptic on -:- Wed, May 24, 2000 at 07:28:13 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Well, if it isn't Raina, Queen of Hostile UA -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 01:51:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ raina -:- what are you trying to wax? -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 02:16:09 (GMT)
__ Jethro -:- Ham don't you know that.... -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 21:30:28 (GMT)
__ Robyn -:- As I was trying to say Raina before our little -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 20:49:12 (GMT)
__ __ ham -:- And assertiveness and empowerment are needed to -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 23:02:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ Robyn -:- And assertiveness and empowerment are needed to -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 23:32:22 (GMT)
__ Powerman -:- well said, hamzen (nt) -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 20:35:44 (GMT)

David -:- Censorship -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 20:09:46 (GMT)
__ Katie -:- Sheesh, David! -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 13:02:40 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- BUT WE AIN'T NO MORMONS! -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 16:06:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ raina -:- you sound like a gangster -:- Wed, May 24, 2000 at 00:01:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- And you sound like a cute, crazy gadfly -:- Wed, May 24, 2000 at 01:29:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ raina -:- what's a gadfly? -:- Wed, May 24, 2000 at 01:59:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ blood -:- Joseph Smith was imprisoned and shot to death -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 21:03:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- There was a schism in the early Mormon church -:- Wed, May 24, 2000 at 15:02:24 (GMT)
__ __ Katie -:- Mormon Church vs Southern Baptists on the internet -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 13:30:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- Thanks Katie. ESSENTIAL reading IMHO (nt) -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 18:40:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ blood -:- Utah Lighthouse not Southern Bap. it is LDS exs -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 14:33:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- Thanks for the correction! -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 15:23:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ blood -:- Great Title alright...Baptists are allies to ex-mo -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 15:53:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Well, I live in Virginia... -:- Wed, May 24, 2000 at 01:28:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- my heart goes out to you...no wonder -:- Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 01:34:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- it's not SO bad here -:- Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 02:15:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- it's not SO bad here -:- Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 14:57:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- re: good allies -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 18:50:19 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek -:- Milbank Tweed Hadley = Bob Jacobs = MONEY = GMJ -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 04:38:22 (GMT)
__ __ A.P. -:- Your site -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 11:31:18 (GMT)
__ __ Angry -:- Milbank Tweed Hadley /I wonder how this firm.... -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 11:12:15 (GMT)
__ __ Roger eDrek -:- Bob Jacobs, do your friends on the hill know this -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 04:43:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- bummed they didn't send no letters to me -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 04:48:08 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- and next logical question -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 02:56:41 (GMT)
__ Brian -:- Censorship -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 02:56:02 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- Censorship and service providers -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 16:30:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ Daneane -:- Censorship and service providers -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 16:46:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- Funny you should say that -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 18:57:55 (GMT)
__ __ David -:- Thanks for advice -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 08:30:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ Brian -:- I DIDN'T SAY 'WAIT 14 DAYS'! -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 14:43:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- I DIDN'T SAY 'WAIT 14 DAYS'! -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 19:03:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JW -:- Thanks, Brian -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 14:50:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Also... -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 15:23:53 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Welcome to the club! -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 02:49:45 (GMT)
__ __ blood -:- links or urls please to your site.... -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 03:35:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- Damnation? Oh, all right: Hip hip - hooray! x3(nt) -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 19:22:37 (GMT)
__ raina -:- what would it take to satisfy you? -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 02:09:42 (GMT)
__ __ Katie -:- what would it take to satisfy you? -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 13:59:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ Daneane -:- Your response, Katie, -:- Wed, May 24, 2000 at 04:03:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- Thanks, Daneane -:- Wed, May 24, 2000 at 15:06:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ raina -:- Since the initial question was for DAVID? -:- Wed, May 24, 2000 at 05:52:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Margaret -:- Since the initial question was for DAVID? -:- Wed, May 24, 2000 at 06:24:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Since the initial question was for DAVID? -:- Wed, May 24, 2000 at 17:05:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- you've found your purpose in life! -:- Wed, May 24, 2000 at 14:02:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Who/what is it you're angry with Raina? (nt) -:- Wed, May 24, 2000 at 15:40:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- ... apart from me, for asking the question (nt) -:- Wed, May 24, 2000 at 18:51:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- Im not even reading this mess! who says i'm angry? -:- Wed, May 24, 2000 at 23:02:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- You see you can do it, and it wasn't so -:- Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 01:32:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- wow! my own personal 'will' trainer! -:- Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 03:19:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ raina -:- what would it take to satisfy you? -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 15:44:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- Raina... -:- Wed, May 24, 2000 at 02:17:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ raina -:- So This Site Is Yours? (!) -:- Wed, May 24, 2000 at 03:14:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- No, it's not MINE! Sheesh! -:- Wed, May 24, 2000 at 13:58:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- p.s. The Big AssUmption -:- Wed, May 24, 2000 at 14:38:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- physical location does not equal ownership -:- Wed, May 24, 2000 at 15:12:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- And also Raina... -:- Wed, May 24, 2000 at 15:20:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- Never Explain Never Complain.... -:- Wed, May 24, 2000 at 14:22:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Raina redux -:- Wed, May 24, 2000 at 14:52:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- please ignore my whaling to cq ok? -:- Wed, May 24, 2000 at 23:13:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Ok, but... -:- Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 01:15:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- PS Raina -:- Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 01:23:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ hamzen -:- what would it take to satisfy you? -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 21:16:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ raina -:- what did he do 2 u? -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 23:56:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Cor blimey guv, strike a light, you into s and m? -:- Wed, May 24, 2000 at 18:15:58 (GMT)
__ Poor, Poor EV -:- Censorship -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 22:26:21 (GMT)
__ GAC -:- Censorship -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 21:46:49 (GMT)
__ __ JW -:- Thanks Fair Use and Filed Copyrights -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 23:46:24 (GMT)
__ JW -:- Go to the Press!!!!! -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 21:19:01 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- idea -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 21:17:39 (GMT)
__ __ Happy -:- ideas -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 12:15:42 (GMT)
__ __ wanna be activist -:- Another idea -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 11:56:06 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Both good ideas (and hi, Dave!) -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 21:37:36 (GMT)
__ Robyn -:- Censorship -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 20:58:03 (GMT)
__ __ blood -:- Interesting Indeed, never know who is reading this -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 22:25:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ Powerman -:- This is a different David -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 23:43:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Robyn -:- This is a different David -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 00:32:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ blood -:- thanks....hard to keep track of everyone (nt) -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 23:48:31 (GMT)


Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 04:36:57 (GMT)
From: Anchor Chickie
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Jodie Jumps Ship (Seriously OT)
Message:
Jodie Foster Dispels Gay Rumors With New Love

Gladiator (2000) star RUSSELL CROWE has stunned Hollywood by adding JODIE FOSTER to his long list of beautiful lovers. Jodie, who has never denied or confirmed rumors about being gay, has never before been spotted publicly escorting a man. The Silence of the Lambs (1991) star has been seen throwing her arms around the New Zealand born hunk and kissing him passionately. A stunned source says, 'If Jodie's falling for him, there isn't a woman in
Hollywood he can't win.' Crowe, who made his major acting debut as a neo-Nazi skinhead in Romper Stomper (1992), also has NICOLE KIDMAN and SHARON STONE in his long list of past love conquests. Basic Instinct (1992) star Sharon told friends, 'He's a real he-man and an incredible lover.' Besotted Jodie, 37, also has the
handsome actor starring in her new film Flora Plum (2001), in which he plays a circus freak. A friend told an American magazine, 'Jodie's shocked all her female friends by expressing her feelings for Russell. They've gone shopping together and shared barbecues. He's even done DIY jobs for her.'

What's DIY?
Do it yourself?

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 05:39:05 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Anchor Chickie
Subject: Rusell Crowe also played a gay man...
Message:
in an Australian film called 'The Sum of Us,' which somehow failed to register in the list of films mentioned. In that film he added another Australian hunk to his long list of lovers. I don't think Russel Crowe has ever denied being gay either. I guess he has that in common with Jody Foster.
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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 15:12:22 (GMT)
From: A.C.
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Rusell Crowe also played a gay man...
Message:
Yeah, I saw that film (Sum of Us). If Jodie jumped, I can't say I blame her. Probably a PR stunt.
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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 05:47:19 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: What's Ever Be Cum of Us
Message:
sorry -just had to say it.
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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 04:55:33 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Anchor Chickie
Subject: AnchorChickieŽ is a Registered Trademark
Message:
you must pay-per-view
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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 04:58:37 (GMT)
From: A.C.
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: AnchorChickieŽ is a Registered Trademark
Message:
Okay, I'll cease and desist
I just couldn't resist...

AnchorChickie no more...maybe I'll go work for Mr. Johnnie

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 05:09:31 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: A.C.
Subject: your such a funny goofball
Message:
ok you can have AnchorChickieŽ


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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 05:12:23 (GMT)
From: A.C.
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: Why, Thank Y'all - Royalties on Their Way nt
Message:
mm
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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 03:11:50 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: can someone explain this 2 me?
Message:
'President Clnton was dis-barred in NY in 1974 for resigning during the watergate hearings.'
-Ch7 NY anchorchickie

that was ALL she said after some long story about being disbarred somewhere else today (arknsas?).....

is this new to anyone else?

is it created propaganda?(Hillary Hero stories)

it is weird for sure though?

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 03:32:15 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: can someone explain this 2 me?
Message:
Raina,
I heard that he was possibly going to be disbarred. I don't remember who came up with the idea but it is over his lying, under oath, I guess, that he didn't have sex with that cigar smoking vagaina...Monica Lowinski! :)
This is the least of my worries but I wonder if this is standard practice towards any lawyer. Don't really care though but for some reason my mind chose to remember that instead of tomorrow's weather!
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 14:40:27 (GMT)
From: ged
Email: None
To: Raina
Subject: EXPLAINED
Message:
Its all very simple , he was not disbarred because although he admits experimenting with Lewinsky he didn't impale!
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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 03:53:12 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: no-specifically the NY part? (S.O.T)
Message:
and his involvement in Watergate hearings ('resigned from' as TV said)?

it is weather...

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 04:12:11 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: jeziz raina you got it all balled up...
Message:
Clinton was never disbarred anywhere. Arkansas is considering disbarring Bill over the Paula Jones thing.

Hillary Clinton worked with the Watergate prosecutor shortly after graduating from Yale Law school.

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 04:53:11 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: so WABC New York is writing propaganda?
Message:
is what you're saying!

jeez Ger! i didn't picture you to be the All-50-states-Barr Ass. expert!

but you obviously know more than me!

(i'm just happy you didn't assume i needed to have 'monica' explained to me-
it's made all the diff!)

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 22:00:25 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: And lastly, how was it for you? (MOT)
Message:
As some people may know, I walked from the king of kings, because knowledge did work for me, and it became rather too obvious that he didn't feel the same way, or he would have made more than the minimal effort to offer this opportunity to everyone on this planet that he has.

Is there anyone here who went through a similar process when leaving?

The reason I ask is that I'm going through one of those life review phases where states of grace are coming back on the agenda. I know some people still meditate, but as a topic area, for obvious reasons it tends to get detoured here and I'm curious
if anyone did reach heightened states akin to grace on a regular basis, and what their relationship with those states of grace are now.

And those states of grace, or as those sportsmen would say, 'in 'the zone' states, which appear very similar to my 'states of grace', tend to leave a person a lot more vulnerable than they think they are. Wouldn't mind some feedback from someone who has also gone down that route.

Before these states become a regular regular thing again, on a similar level to when I was a gung-ho meditator back in the day, I would like some feedback, rather than just go on my own experiences this time.

Apart from myself, I know there are others who experienced similar stuff, who are drifting away from the big quiff who might find this a useful discussion.

On a slightly different tack, I'm also prepared to respond in defence of the value of those experiences, a lot better than any premie I've seen here

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 18:10:06 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: grace
Message:
Hey hammie
How are ya? SInce reading a book about autism by an autistic woman I am questioning the nature of those grace experiences. I get lost in nature and in music (I mean really lost, if someone is talking to me I want them to stop talking--I feel these oneness experiences with music, even at K-mart when the musak is playing a song I like-ha ha). Autistics do this to avoid personal contact which is painful to them--they lose themselves in counting beads or swinging or whatever.

It's not bad to get lost in the flow or in pleasure, and we all certainly need an escape from reality , we all need happiness, don't get me wrong. But are these experiences God's grace or just the mind tuning up and outa here?

I've had a couple experiences that did feel like God's grace but are perhaps too personal to talk about here. they didn't have to do with a 'feeling' but more with a sense that God (or the universe or The Great Spirit) understood the circumstances and was giving me a gift.

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 20:19:45 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: grace
Message:
Interesting post Helen, maybe why I find those people with autism where I work, so easy to get on with. Certainly think in the mid-eighties I was meditating so much it was too far.

It's an interesting one that those states leave me, most of the time, with much more clarity, an increased sense of connection to an integrated sense of self, (the quality of the food I eat always improves afterwards), I get very creative and very horny, my energy levels go up and I get funnier. All in all, a much better person to be around, or so I think.

There were shadow aspects too, but only when it became too primary an obsession.

God I know nothing about, I think it's the mind slipping up or in a meta level, shock of the new etc

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Date: Wed, May 24, 2000 at 02:04:06 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: grace
Message:
YOu know hammie, I think you're right about meditation leaving a person with a grounded and good feeling. I often feel that way after doing the 'knowledge' techniques. If that is a state of grace, sounds good to me. I guess I was yammering about a blissed out sort of state, that doesn't feel grounded at all, feels like floating away. I guess it's hard to communicate about these things, isn't it?

God's grace probably has nothing to do with meditating or not meditating, IMO. A good book on the sort of grace I beleive in is 'The Second Coming' by Walker Percy.

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Date: Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 20:32:37 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Two states of grace
Message:
Like in Robyn & Marks discussion below, for years I was ascending, so higher states were states of grace, mostly now I'm going downwards which feels as deep and as important as the other end of the polarity did, but produces a completely different and liberating in it's own way attitude, take etc.

Part of the reason I brought this topic up is that we have no empowered language for describing these experiences without resorting to religious stuff, the weakness of the new age route for me.

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 15:15:58 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Grace
Message:
Well now a subject I can sink my teeth into.

I feel I am an expert on Grace,Hamzen.
That, of course, is not said with ego - but rather the understanding of the gift itself.

(Just to clarify - I'm not speaking as a premie - but just myself.I am not relating any of my post to GMJ.)

It is hard to distinguish between :
1. a Gift from Above ( may I call it that) suddenly given.
2. a Gift fr above- prayed for,begged for or demanded in time of duress or need.
3.a Gift fr above - suddenly given,but during a time of extreme grief
4. a Gift fr above - slowly welling inside you after becoming an empty vessel waiting for just that (in some form of stillness)
5. a Gift fr above - induced by a new age machine (an Alpha brain wave experience)
6. a Gift fr Above - brought on by drugs

Then we have the Gift from Above:
1.that includes wisdom and insight - a Revelation
2.that involves so much Love showering like stardust on our very being - inside and out.
3.that envelopes us in a simple peace and detachment
4.that opens us to feelings of such sublime,sensual,delicate awareness of the Creator's breath in the breezes, His body under our feet,His sweetness in the fragance of a flower,His Kisses in the mist on our face.

All of these are gifts to the heart and soul and mind.

Some jokers here might say winning the lottery is a state of Grace - certainly a Gift from Above.Yes, well,that is not exactly what I believe you and I are interested in here.

And Hamzen and Robyn,from our post below. Yes, we are born alone and die alone. And at the same time surrounded at both times.

Nice thread,Hamzen to start my morning with. Thank you.

Elaine

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 20:33:42 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Grace
Message:
It is hard to distinguish between :
1. a Gift from Above ( may I call it that) suddenly given.
2. a Gift fr above- prayed for,begged for or demanded in time of duress or need.
3.a Gift fr above - suddenly given,but during a time of extreme grief
4. a Gift fr above - slowly welling inside you after becoming an empty vessel waiting for just that (in some form of stillness)
5. a Gift fr above - induced by a new age machine (an Alpha brain wave experience)
6. a Gift fr Above - brought on by drugs
Then we have the Gift from Above:
1.that includes wisdom and insight - a Revelation
2.that involves so much Love showering like stardust on our very being - inside and out.
3.that envelopes us in a simple peace and detachment
4.that opens us to feelings of such sublime,sensual,delicate awareness of the Creator's breath in the breezes, His body under our feet,His sweetness in the fragance of a flower,His Kisses in the mist on our face.
All of these are gifts to the heart and soul and mind.

The state of good vibes experience you describe I can relate too,
except I never saw or felt any creator, and it never felt like it came from above, but rather from within, which opened out. Did you really have experiences you felt were directly from god, or that you believed were from god?

That feeling of 'it's good to be alive' I can relate to completely.

Re the lottery, strikes me that's pretty much what happened for gm, except he still has to see premies occasionally which must be exceedingly tedious for him. Sounds to me that it would be easier to imagine yourself in some little head fantasy of 'I am the king of kings', IF you live in luxury, lackies at your beck & call

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 21:51:36 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: RE:Grace
Message:
'Did you really have exp you felt were directly from God?'

Oh my God - YES!

That's probably why I say From Above - we all relate to it differently. I mean the ceiling opened up - (I'm talking about the most recent event).

Yeah, I definitely did not feel there were spirits or angels involved - maybe 'around'.

No presence of GMJ,either.

I mean the Lord on high.

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Date: Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 20:36:54 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: RE:Grace
Message:
Sorry to be so pedantic, but could you amplify a bit more, this is pretty much my exes stance, and it's beyond me, so feedback appreciated etc etc
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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 19:57:52 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Grace
Message:
Not enough is yet known about the connection between brain chemistry and 'grace from above', but there does definitely appear to be a connection. Spiritual experiences can be induced by drugs, magnetic pulses, and even epileptic fits. During these states of mind, why people think they are in the presense of their creator, or the first cause, or whatever, remains puzzling to me. But I do think that no definite conclusions should be made about 'grace from above' as being the proper description of what these experiences actually are. It could be just a heavy dose of seratonin, or other neurotransmitters, flooding various parts of the brain. I, myself, lean toward this explanation. If the day comes when 'grace from above' can be induced, easily, and on a whim, in a laboratory, which I suspect someday it will, would 'grace from above' continue to suffice as a description of that experience. I don't think so. Like so many other popular misunderstandings, it will be cause for humankind to, once again, re-examine and redefine it's place and purpose, or lack of, in the universe.
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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 21:58:06 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re:Grace
Message:
' It could be just a heavy dose of...'

Well, yeah - how do you think God works?

'Opps - don't give them the chemicals in the brain - because if they analyze it they won't think it's Me.'

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Date: Wed, May 24, 2000 at 13:00:55 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Re:Grace
Message:
Elaine,

I guess you could look at it the way you do, but I still find myself asking questions. Does God truly exist and communicate with us through this mortal frame, or is he just a construct of our minds, existing only therein, but nowhere else independent of that? In other words, can God survive without us? Does he only exist because we have minds capable of creating him? It gets deep, and confusing, but the question still remains.

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Date: Wed, May 24, 2000 at 15:51:37 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: God
Message:
'...can God survive without us? Does he only exist because we have minds capable of creating him?'

I honestly have never in my life heard anyone ask a question like that before.

It's the old 'tree in the forest' question,seems like.

Good luck to you,Jerry

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Date: Wed, May 24, 2000 at 17:15:49 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: God
Message:
The only point I'm trying to make is that there might not be a God, even if you feel you are in the presense of one, such as when in a state of 'grace from above'. I guess for some people it's just easier to believe, without question. Not for me. I am, after all, a skeptic.

Thanks for the best wishes.

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Date: Wed, May 24, 2000 at 16:23:39 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: God
Message:
Dear Elaine,
Let me put it another way, I have always wondered if god was a construct of humans the way, at one time, they used gods to explain any natural phenomina, day/night, eclipses, seasons, or prayed to gods to help crops grow or women be fertile. It has been accepted that the gods created to explain these things are not real today because we now understand seasons, eclipses etc, but still we don't know why we feel those feelings of 'gifts from above' and other things that come from inside us, feelings of peace or personal power, whatever. It seems logical to me that these things could just be part of being alive and human, most everyone feels them at sometime or another.
In my religion, Robynism :), there are no beliefs except in the belief that almost anything is possible. Even science is inexact and it's findings change with time and new knowledge.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 20:41:29 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Grace
Message:
Couldn't agree more Jerry, the further I go my bet is it's all in the brain, and the neurotransmitters are the key. All the HEAVY psychedelics our bodies produce naturally are intimately connected with the neurotransmitters.
Fascinating shit, isn't it?

I never saw it as grace from above, but grace states, not grateful to someone, just plain grateful.

Certainly the meditation states that trigger these experiences for me produce very similar responses as they do when I experience them on mushrooms, mdma, music, sex(afterwards), painting, strobe lights and nature.

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Date: Wed, May 24, 2000 at 13:05:05 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Did you get my emails?
Message:
Hi Ham,

I know you had difficulty with the first email I sent you, but I don't know if you received my followup. Too bad if you didn't. There was some laudatory praise for your skills as a mixer. Both tapes were excellent. I was pleasantly surprised, since that type of music isn't ordinarilly something I care for. Thanks.

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Date: Wed, May 24, 2000 at 23:16:08 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re, re-wind, the crowd say bo selecta
Message:
Duh, what a duffer I am at times,

Thanx for the thanx jerry, just remembered I sent 4amzen stuff!

Some people are such space cadets or what, at least not too long & I can use dementia as an excuse! (Apologies to anyone offended by that one!)

It's great an all, cause I was getting a strong hunch you would.

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Date: Wed, May 24, 2000 at 20:01:25 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Great stuff ain't it!!
Message:
I did get your e-mail, second one, and thankx again, but err, I wasn't the dj, but since I was right in my suspicion you'd like, I'll risk you some more next week, more up-tempo mostly, some upliftin house and some really dark fuck-off warp outs, will be dead interested in your response.
I suspect you've been hearing 4/4 house based stuff rather than breakbeat, are you able to play it REALLY loud on the bass end?

On a detour, why is it always easier giving rather than receiving, thanks in this case?

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 19:19:55 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Grace
Message:
Dear Elaine,
I want it to be clear that I am not jumping on your thoughts here, just asking, communicating.

'(Just to clarify - I'm not speaking as a premie - but just myself.I am not relating any of my post to GMJ.)'
and then...
'that opens us to feelings of such sublime,sensual,delicate awareness of the Creator's breath in the breezes, His body under our feet,His sweetness in the fragance of a flower,His Kisses in the mist on our face.'
I hadn't read enough of your earlier posts to know if you even mentioned whether you think m is god or some realtion or just a meditation teacher so I wonder what your definition of 'His' is?

I'd have to say that for me I wouldn't think of it as a gift from above. Maybe not a gift and definitely not from above. As someone, Mark? commented, what exactly is grace anyway and I mentioned that if the witness self I mentioned is grace then it just feels natural, not spiritual at all. When I am filled with that feeling of power and strength and feel it and a great positive feeling anytime or place but always in nature, I feel it radiating out of me, out of every pour so I would say, for me it isn't recieved but emminates from me.
Even as a kid I thought that 'god' and the 'devil' were just the good and bad parts of ourselves, it is all in us. That is not something I am preaching for anyone else, it is just how if feels for me.
I'd say that even when there are amazing coincidences or whatever, stuff that floors you, I still think of it as just part of being connected to myself and thus to all around me.
The Quakers feel that all living things are equal and when I heard that I tried to see if becoming a Quaker was for me, it wasn't, but I always felt that way myself. That my connection to all things is by way of that thing, that spark that keeps us alive. We may also be able to connect to living things, people and animals that have died, so where that fits in I am not sure.
One other commment, if I am asking for something I usually end it with, if this is what is right for me. Never demand. How many times I have wanted something only to find out later it wasn't right for me.

'And Hamzen and Robyn,from our post below. Yes, we are born alone and die alone. And at the same time surrounded at both times.'
Thanks for getting back to me on this. I guess if I think about it that way then it is true from the begining right thru to the end and all moments in between, eh?

No offese ment, hope none taken.
Love,
Robyn

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 22:09:31 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Re:Grace
Message:
Robyn,
No offense in the least taken :).

Let me just say to your question - It wasn't Prem Pal Singh Rawat in the mist kissing my face or giving me the glorious experience of being enveloped and surrounded by love.

And it wasn't Prem Pal that opened up my ceiling to rainbow rays of light entering me and at the same time coming from inside me to elevate me to a place where my lungs were filled with those rays at each breath.

Again that was just my most recent Grace filled moment.

Nice talking with you.
Elaine

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 22:34:30 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Re:Grace
Message:
Dear Elaine,
Thanks, I did see where you posted that it wasn't m but 'the Lord on High' that you were referring to by His.
I have had outrageous experiences that I call day time visions that seem similar to your rainbow experience. I also just saw them more, as just a natural ability of any human who is open to it, similar to what Mark said below, maybe, about 85% of the brain that is ongoing but not always tapped into.
I also am enjoying the hell out of this thread Elaine. :) Some may call this stuff new age but I have been experiencing this stuff most of my life, before I ever heard of new age. They are experiences in my life that happen, for me, without the ability to control them, their happening or not. I think of them as the spice of life, the things that make life fun and interesting.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 04:50:42 (GMT)
From: DeProGram Anand Ji
Email: not given
To: hamzen
Subject: And lastly, how was it for you? (MOT)
Message:
I am confused by your choice of words, what do mean by grace or grace states? Do you mean a calm or blissful feeling, or do you mean that you feel God is intervening in your life and saving or redeeming you? One definition of grace is that it is an undeserved or unmerited gift from God. You know the song, Amazing Grace ect. If the Grace is unmerited then it is not connected to anything you may be doing to 'earn it', praying , meditating, being a good little devotee ect.

What some of you seem to be talking about when you use the words grace or detachment can be cultivativated through prayer or meditation. I would perfer to call it acceptance or equanimity. You learn how roll with the punches in life without freaking out, and the extent to which we can learn to do that is realitive, you will probably not ever get to the point where you are 100 percent detached or experiencing total acceptance all the time. You would most likely have to be lobotamized or using some extremely powerful narcotic to simulate that feeling. Basically all you will be doing is learning to keep at level head. Besides emotional pain is good it tell us that there is somthing wrong that needs our attention. Perhaps this is grace.

One prayer that is particularly useful for cultivating a feeling of acceptance is the serenity prayer. You the know the one.

God grant the serenity to accept the thing I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can and the Wisdom to know the difference.

Meditation can also help, particularly if you are not trying to use meditation the way premies do to get high.
Rather you should focus on your present experiences and try to embrace them, if your back hurts relax into the pain note it accept it, if your bored relax into the boredom note it accept it, and it will pass ect. This is one way to learn or cultivate real acceptance. If you are a big shot Guru and the driver is banging your wife in your limo, don't freak out, just say the serenity prayer and know that everything happens for a reason, ( even though we often don't know what the reason is), relax note it, accept it, this too shall pass. It could be you are being tested.

Sincerely, Mahatma DeProGram Anand Ji

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 20:48:17 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: DeProGram Anand Ji
Subject: And lastly, how was it for you? (MOT)
Message:
Grace states = No connection to any god & not just peaceful, although the long term after effects can be, no very dynamic, energy levels way up, very alert, colours and sounds more vibrant, everything appears more alive.

Remember that first acid trip when it kicked in deep, that level of intensity.

Why do you see getting higfh as bad? Not a criticism, just interested to know.

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 02:07:34 (GMT)
From: red butler
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: And lastly, how was it for you? (MOT)
Message:
Big M looked around at the empty room. Christ, he hated to be alone, 'Where the fuck was everybody?' Well, he wasn't exactly alone. Patrick was some where in the house, not that it mattered.

Big M reached down and started scratching his crotch. 'What the fuck,' he thought, 'I'm not on stage,' He was starting to not mind this 'alone' stuff so much any more. Maybe the docs where all wrong about the phobias. And he was starting to get a pretty good dong going down there with all his handy work.

'Jesus fuckin christ, the Lord of the Universe and I can't even get laid,' he moaned out loud, 'I didn't incarnate just to jerk off. Where the hell is everybody?'

'I, I'm here, and, and, I can help you' stammered a familiar high pitch voice.

Big M paused a bit and then sauntered down the hall towards the west wing. 'Ah what the fuck,' he muttered to himself, 'a mouth is a mouth is a mouth...'

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 20:49:47 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: red butler
Subject: And don't you know that's been true!(nt)
Message:
a
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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 00:55:26 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: And lastly, how was it for you? (MOT)
Message:
ham,
Do these states of grace only happen during meditation? I am not sure if what I would call that is the same. I do meditate, light, the word and recently 2 Buddhist techniques which are a great balance, I think. They involve thinking, following thoughts that just happen and creating images with thoughts you creat. I have found them both to be very powerful while the two from K are, as you know very calming and thoughtless.
Robyn
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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 03:56:00 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: And lastly, how was it for you? (MOT)
Message:
Do these states of grace only happen during meditation? I

For me there have been other routes that hit the same territory, it's just that meditation was the route I went on and refined over the years, want to up the ante without upping the drugs

re light & word, both very dynamic and spatially stretching, strong pulse element to both of them for me, music was always calming and nectar integrative, but from different angles all created grace states, although much less frequently with music.

When you say the two buddhist techniques have been powerful, could you fill that out?

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 10:49:59 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: And lastly, how was it for you? (MOT)
Message:
Dear ham,
I read Mark's post last night and thought what I called my experience of the witness self did not feel like a state of grace, felt very natural. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on that post of mine and his if you are so inclined.
I had a powerful experience of the word in my k session. I was following my breath as we were instructed and then it changed to a column from my 1st chakera(sp!) to the crown of my head, about 3 inches in diameter and was filled with energy RACING up and down, totally not connected to my breath. I think following your breath is calming but when this happens, and it only has a handful of times, I realize that following your breath is only a way in the door.
Light was alway great for me and now I don't use my hands at all and never touch my eyes. If I need help to focus I lightly place a finger tip on my 'third eye' but it often just happens on its own.
As to the buddhist techiques. The first one I tried, read in a book a buddhist friend gave me was just to sit and not to do anything just let yourself be and follow the thoughts that come up naturally and my thoughts went from one powerful image/memory to another and another, like a slippery slope to some forgotten child hood memories that through me into this whole new phase of dealing with them. It was very intense for a couple days.
The next in called tonleng(sp) simple and I just took to it right away. Breath in through your nose and out through your mouth. Very contrasting to the word which is all inside you (sorry but you know what I mean). Tonleng fits in with my coming out of what has been, for me, a hermit stage. I think of different things when I do this for instance, breath in Jade and who she is, all of her that I know and what she doesn't share with me and I breath out my love for her to fill her up. Lots of things like that, it is a connection to the world or a specific person. This type of breathing is exactly the breathing used in exercise and so is very natural for me. It also has a circular feel to it that reminds me of belly dance and feels very feminine and more specifically healing in it's circular nature.
I had been walking on a track, in addition to the other things I do once the weather warmed up and if it ever stops raining I'll do it again! :) I walk on 3 different tracks and each is set in beautiful settings and as I walk I am constantly taking in different awe inspiring views. I have always felt an easier connection to whatever, the energies available, in nature anyway, the walking feels good and has me aware of my strength and then the breathing is just naturally tonleng. The one day there was also a nice breeze and I ended up walking with my hands raised to the sky. Tried not to as there were a couple maintanence guys working on a roof of the gym and I knew they could see me but what the hell, I figured. It would have been hard not to do it. Just thinking back on the experience brings it back to some extent. It was amazing.
I was told about this last meditation and took right to it but my friend is making me tapes that discuss this type of meditation so I'll know more about it once I've heard them. I am glad I had my own experience with it first though, already formed my own relationship with it hopefully the tapes will deeping my understanding but if I had them first it may have kept me from what it has become to/with me now.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, May 24, 2000 at 20:27:53 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: And lastly, how was it for you? (MOT)
Message:
I read Mark's post last night and thought what I called my experience of the witness self did not feel like a state of grace, felt very natural. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on that post of mine and his if you are so inclined.
I had a powerful experience of the word in my k session. I was following my breath as we were instructed and then it changed to a column from my 1st chakera(sp!) to the crown of my head, about 3 inches in diameter and was filled with energy RACING up and down, totally not connected to my breath. I think following your breath is calming but when this happens, and it only has a handful of times, I realize that following your breath is only a way in the door.
Light was alway great for me and now I don't use my hands at all and never touch my eyes. If I need help to focus I lightly place a finger tip on my 'third eye' but it often just happens on its own.

Interesting reading because marks witness state was mine for a decade, and then the last decade yours describes it beautifully, the only time your witness state/my last decade has had quite the intensity of the previous one was around the nearest to 'spiritual' house music called 'balearic',, in '90-'92, then it was sweet sweet sweet, but still grounded, more like light through the genitals/pelvic area than the head, exquisite. Having said that they are both on the rise for me.

The description of 'holy name' I can relate. I also get lots of variations of it. Recently was sharing with someone into reiki, and got the same feeling but, upside down/inside out/going in reverse, VERY grounded.
Same for me with light, re techniques.

As to the buddhist techiques. The first one I tried, read in a book a buddhist friend gave me was just to sit and not to do anything just let yourself be and follow the thoughts that come up naturally and my thoughts went from one powerful image/memory to another and another, like a slippery slope to some forgotten child hood memories that through me into this whole new phase of dealing with them. It was very intense for a couple days.
The next in called tonleng(sp) simple and I just took to it right away. Breath in through your nose and out through your mouth. Very contrasting to the word which is all inside you (sorry but you know what I mean). Tonleng fits in with my coming out of what has been, for me, a hermit stage. I think of different things when I do this for instance, breath in Jade and who she is, all of her that I know and what she doesn't share with me and I breath out my love for her to fill her up. Lots of things like that, it is a connection to the world or a specific person. This type of breathing is exactly the breathing used in exercise and so is very natural for me. It also has a circular feel to it that reminds me of belly dance and feels very feminine and more specifically healing in it's circular nature.

Very interesting Roblyn, the tongleng sounds absolutely right for me now. For years I had a similar approach, but not through the breath but on a body surrender and pulse out way. Don't do it now, too much trippy weird shit after doing it past its sell-by date. The wonder of bad habits.
Got a gorgeous feeling when reading the bit about jade, you ever talked this over with her?
If you can find out what she's listening to, and see if I've got anything of a similar spirit, happily send a tape, if that's not too intrusive, either for you or her.

I had been walking on a track, in addition to the other things I do once the weather warmed up and if it ever stops raining I'll do it again! :) I walk on 3 different tracks and each is set in beautiful settings and as I walk I am constantly taking in different awe inspiring views. I have always felt an easier connection to whatever, the energies available, in nature anyway, the walking feels good and has me aware of my strength and then the breathing is just naturally tonleng. The one day there was also a nice breeze and I ended up walking with my hands raised to the sky. Tried not to as there were a couple maintanence guys working on a roof of the gym and I knew they could see me but what the hell, I figured. It would have been hard not to do it. Just thinking back on the experience brings it back to some extent. It was amazing.

Yes, yes, just what I need to hear at the moment, that stuff has been too absent for me recently.

I was told about this last meditation and took right to it but my friend is making me tapes that discuss this type of meditation so I'll know more about it once I've heard them. I am glad I had my own experience with it first though, already formed my own relationship with it hopefully the tapes will deeping my understanding but if I had them first it may have kept me from what it has become to/with me now.

Be up for feedback later, on that one, when/if.
Empowerment eh, no leaders, after all these years it still strikes me as a wonderful reality concept, and even now a 'radical' idea, in terms of the human race.

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Date: Wed, May 24, 2000 at 23:42:09 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: And lastly, how was it for you? (MOT)
Message:
Dear ham,
What a wonderful post. Thanks
Great that tongleng clicked for you too. No meditation has ever felt so right to me. Hope it works for you too. I can imagine doing it through your body, like your skin is permeable and osmosis is happening between you and all?
Oddly enough, grace, a gift from above?... Jade came home with me tonight just so she could hook up with a friend from nearby and not surprizingly we fought in the car, both frazzeled, crying and spent when we got here. She tried to call her friend but the phone was hit by lightning AGAIN and I hadn't thought about the modem line. She was frantic and went to a neighbor's to call and I came here and saw your post and what you said about the thing I do with her in tongleng. When she came home we started to talk in a much better way. I just told her that no matter what I DO love her to my core. Then I told her about telling you about the meditation and how I do it with her in mind a lot and what I think when I do, that I told you and your reaction. We both started crying and held each other, really held each other for a very long time. Thank you so much. That sharing of caring lead to a good, long converstaion, first real one in so long I can't remember the last time.
About the music, any you send I will share with her but she said she doesn't know what kind of house she likes. She is a lot like me, one of the reasons we clash as a mother and daughter, eh? She doesn't pay a lot of attention to names or details except in her art, like me. I'd have to say that you are anything but intrusive, you're lucky I don't believe in god (let me clarify here that I am neither an athiest) or I may think you are he. :)

'Yes, yes, just what I need to hear at the moment, that stuff has
been too absent for me recently.'
Well hopefully that balances out my moment of considering your divinity! :)

The tapes on tongleng are done but I am happily waiting, also for those belly dance cd's so when I get them and if the tapes are very good, which I hear they are, I'll send them along with the music.

'Empowerment eh, no leaders, after all these years it still stikes me as a wonderful reality concept, and even now a 'radical' idea, in terms of the human race. '
I guess one of the reasons I feel the way I do about god, spirituality and doing it all without any frame work is because my very Catholic mother was also very violent and because that I see that churches and other institutions, like the home for retarded women I worked in, may start out simple but seem to inevitably, over time, become stagnet and dead. I do not think it can be helped but maybe it can with great attention to the possibility. Anyway, I think it much easier to do as an individual.
Love,
Robyn the much relieved mother for tonight anyway

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Date: Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 21:03:31 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: And lastly, how was it for you? (MOT)
Message:
Nice one Robyn, that shit is starting to happen pretty regular in terms of timing etc etc, wanted to without that stuff for a while, to see but....

Weird really, but that stuff between the two of you, I dunno why, it matters.

I don't believe in god (let me clarify here that I am neither an athiest) or I may think you are he. :)
'Yes, yes, just what I need to hear at the moment, that stuff has
been too absent for me recently.'
Well hopefully that balances out my moment of considering your divinity! :)

Thank god for that!!

The tapes on tongleng are done but I am happily waiting, also for those belly dance cd's so when I get them and if the tapes are very good, which I hear they are, I'll send them along with the music.

Well up for, got four new tracks with strong arabic/mediterranean influence, mid-pace to quick (120-160), absolutely gorgeous, for almost any house dj at the moment, whatever the style, there's some deep shit coming through, similar territory to 90-92 balearic, gorgeous, exactly your territory, this shit now is not so obvious, but even more resonant, and everyone is being more thorough this time, yes yes yes.

nice one robyn

ham

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 00:07:25 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: In reply to both your threads...
Message:
Hello Ham. After reading both your posts, I thought about detachment and the next path to tread.

I wonder what is the difference between detachment and perspective.

When I think of what M seemed to mean by detachment, it seemed like from everything else except him. His answer to problems from society seemed to be to ignore it and go inside and think only of yourself.

The methods he distorted to back that however, at least by their own right, so not seem so self-centered, but rather more about perspective.

Apart from the M stuff though, I still wonder about the difference between detachment and perspective. It seems both are about kinda backing up and trying to get a broader picture. Detachment though, seems to me, kinda fake or maybe, uncaring. Perspective seems involved...but with a little more room for broader understanding.

I have a hard time with detachment. Or maybe de-attaching.

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Date: Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 21:14:37 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: In reply to both your threads...
Message:
Thanx for that post, it's triggered some interesting reactions in me, just absorbing, not able to verbalize yet,

found an interesting level of attachment to 'detachment' eespecially as against 'perspective', in my reaction

so apologies for non response

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 18:19:05 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: Detachment vs. Perspective
Message:
Me too, Daneane. I think the idea of detachment will always seem creepy to me, a kind of cold, uncaring inhumanity, after my expereinces with the big M and the big S (my other guru).Yes I had two --how embarrassing and sick, I know! Detachment makes me think of initiators telling ashram premies they can't go home to their mom's funeral.

Perspective, on the other hand, is something that has been a blessing to develop in my life. To try to recognize the 'objective reality' in a situation. If a guru could teach us to do that, IMO, it would have much more value than teaching the devotee the techniques for autistic bliss!!

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 18:29:38 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Austistic bliss
Message:
Too appropriate Helen!!
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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 18:40:14 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: Autistic bliss
Message:
hey Daneane!
I'm supposed to be working! I had better get to it!! Speaking of ways to lose oneself--the forum is right up there on the top of the list!
I'll email ya soon!

Yeah, that book is called 'Nobody, Nowhere'--it made me more curious about autism and I've read a couple of other books on the topic since (standing in the aisles of Barnes and Nobel)

Speaking of books, I have often wondered if my propensity to spend long hours laying around in bed reading was a kind of escapism (ya think???) ;)

Reading was the one addiction I couldn't give up for the ashram,

helen

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 00:49:40 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: In reply to both your threads...
Message:
Dear Daneane,
I agree, detachment seems to be unfeeling which is generally unnatural. Perspective is more like a phrase, probably new age, that a friend used the other day but I liked it, she spoke about a person's witness self. I was talking about when I am depressed or just sad I have learned not to push it away but to let it wash over me, through me. I indulge my sense of pity for myself or whatever even while I see that feeling as more superficial but I have learned to be patient with myself and know that I will not get to my true feelings without going through this process. It does feel like a witness self.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 18:24:08 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: feelings...whoa whoa
Message:
What you are describing seems like another way of gaining perspective as it regards emotion, allowing yourself the emotion without totally indulging it ....

SOmetimes though, isn't it nice to just give in to your emotions and have a real big old pity party???? I know it doesn't help in the long run, but in the short term it can be really fun. Anyway, dear, you know I know what you are saying here, and I agree. It's like being a loving parent to yourself, allowing yourself the feeling, and then once it is allowed, it usually dissapates. All that good 'parenting' we didn't have as kids...
Love
Helen

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 19:29:29 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: feelings...whoa whoa
Message:
Hey there sweetie! :)
'SOmetimes though, isn't it nice to just give in to your emotions and have a real big old pity party???? I know it doesn't help in the long run, but in the short term it can be really fun.'
I am not sure what you thought I was saying that was different from this. Just because I can 'stand back' and observe myself in these times I do have all the feelings, get right down into it. The experience of sadness or pity is full blown, belive me! :) And I DO think it helps in the long run, big time or I wouldn't indulge it at all because I know it isn't really what I am feeling about whatever.
I remember when I was a premie actually, and before, that I didn't do more then experience the superficial emotions, thought that was the real deal and acted on those feelings. Because of that I missed out on whatever was beneath the surface for me in the situation so I didn't get out of it what I could, felt like the victim, didn't see how I really was in charge of everything in my life myself, if not all the outside stuff then at least how I dealt with them.
You know what is going on with me now and I surely have let myself feel that pity but every moment I also know that I brought it on myself. This is something I haven't wanted to deal with so let it get to the point where I had no choice but deal!
Gotta go take my CLEAN dogs to meet their possibly new doggie roommate. :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, May 24, 2000 at 02:09:50 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: feelings...whoa whoa
Message:
HA HA! Trying to make a good impression before the dogs roll in some dead animal?? (;
I guess I see you as such a strong person, letting your emotions wash through you and then getting back up and doing what needs to be done. I have no fears for your good future dear.I certainly don't see you as someone who indulges in pity parties but it's good to hear that you allow yourself that full blown emotional 'letting down' at times!
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Date: Wed, May 24, 2000 at 22:57:44 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: feelings...whoa whoa
Message:
Dear Helen,
'HA HA! Trying to make a good impression before the dogs roll in
some dead animal?? (;'
How did you guess! :) It worked too!
and really, thanks for the rest of what you wrote. Touches my heart to read and to have you for a friend.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 02:44:45 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Robynism rules
Message:
Girl, how do I sign up to become a nun in the church of Robynism? I'd leave my flakey Unitarian beliefs for that church anyday--

You seem to be onto something and on some kind of frequency with all the synchronicity that happens to you (I know, yucky new age word--bleh bleh, but what else can you call it) . I think you are right that we all have the potential to plug into intuition the way you do, I'd wager a guess that you pay more attention to your intuition and to 'signs' than most people because of living in the country and being alone a lot. And being able to sunbathe naked I think attracts the vibes from Venus and other cool planets.

Oops, I'm off topic again. All the fun posts are off topic though, whin e whine
Helen

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 18:26:48 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Well said, Helen.(nt)
Message:
Helen doesn't suck.
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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 16:05:31 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: In reply to both your threads...
Message:
Robyn,

I think that makes a lot of sense. Often I hear people say 'just get over it' or 'let it go'...sounds easy. But I think, until you go through it, and get out all that emotion, ranting and pity...you can't really get through it. I think if I were to just claim it's yesterday's news and not really work through it...it would still be there...just behind...popping up at the worst times. The whole denial trip.

Detachment, I think, acts as if you can do that...just move away and not be weighed down by such things. It seems impossible to me. It also seems undesired. To not get involved in the the highs or lows..good or bad...well, what's the point?

I'd rather ride the waves of suckitude.

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 18:25:59 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: In reply to both your threads...
Message:
I agree, detachment can't be done without causing harm to one's self and others. It's NOT desirable, it's not humanly possible and it can even be dangerous and destructive. It's a bunch of new age nonsense.
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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 02:26:23 (GMT)
From: Mark
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: In reply to both your threads...
Message:
Regarding the buddist detachment thing,I think compassion
which is impersonal (detached )but still allows the flow of love through us is the correct synthesis.Love is I'm certain
a quality not to be jettisoned in the quest for greater experience.pure love + pure mind performing compassionate action.
great recipe.

Regarding the Witness:
recently i'd read an article written by one of our nonphysical friends that mentioned that people who think that humans use 10-15 % of their brains are wrong. People use 100% of their brains. Its just that the large majority of that brain use is happening at levels of our higher or greater self that we either are not allowing or receptive to - though it is happening whether or not we are aware of it (levels in addition to the autonomic nervous system and other auto functions of our biology ).As we regain/reclaim our unique independant sovereign nature,& shift the balance of power back into and Through us, we start reclaiming more and more of this ongoing bigger self. Not unlike a computer downloading audio capabilities,or ADSL,'burning'CD's,or what have you. Same computer, same vehicle,just more capability.More experience of information flow
( In Form ). This is the process we all pulling in now .

the occasional personal shift into the witness state or state of grace- by ritual,medicine wheel,meditation,music,cannabis,or whatever - is putting us into that magic place that definitely IS already Happening.Its like joining a party ( your true surprize party ) ALREADY in progress. We are more alive alert in grace in sych. This is us owning the missing 85%. Imagine yourself as 100%, thouroughly enough- hold until it arrives - and bliss is yours.Be bold enough to permanently desire it, and watch the magic of '72 return with( to quote OB1 Kanobe ) more power than ever before. As premies our belief was that darshan could do that. Once we bought that, the impersonal mechanism that is willing to posit us into the Witness state( or Buddha state or Samadhi state )or any state we preponderantly believe in does its thing. Leaving the limitations of the De Vote (devotional) system and its inherent powerlessness, and embracing the Re Vote system ( a passionate vote for yourself is most recommended ) allows you to experience the magic without DISSAPEARING. Its the difference worth fighting for. Awakening.

Reclaiming our self Our power
the very wind beneath our wings
our 100% functionality - our divine Witness
our personal or collective Mountaintop .
To be a living breathing extension of What Truly IS
on this earth.
That is our human possibility
and birthright.

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 22:26:29 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: In reply to both your threads...
Message:
Dear Mark,
Sorry I haven't gotten back to you before now but I wanted to read again and think about your post and I have been busy.
First, is Buddhist detachment different from other detachment? I was talking about detachment in general not related to Buddhist belief. I like what you said about it though and I can see what you mean about compassion.

'pure love + pure mind performing compassionate action. great recipe.'
I assume this is just a goal since I know I can not truly be pure anything but I can see it as something to strive for.

Re: Wittnes self, I don't know if we are talking about the same thing. This is much more then an occasional occurance for me and it doesn't feel like grace, maybe maturity. Knowing better then to think that first impulses and emotions are the whole story about what is happening in me. When I did believe that was all there was and reacted on those feelings not only did I miss out on finding what was really going on with me, it was a way to stop the feeling, to not feel it, to get into reacting to it which didn't help me in my life at all, ever. Also experiencing the witness doesn't lead me to bliss, maybe a feeling of personal power and strength but it is more reality based for me. Accepting what my reality is and then moving on and dealing with that reality. I can relate though to the possibility of your suggestion that it is the higher self that is there and tapped into and not only having the ability to move objects mentally or whatever I have heard before about that 85% of the brain that is unused.

'Leaving the limitations of the De Vote (devotional) system and its inherent powerlessness, and embracing the Re Vote system ( a passionate vote for yourself is most recommended ) allows you to experience the magic without DISSAPEARING. Its the difference worth fighting for. Awakening.'
Maybe we are talking about the same thing and it is just my adversion to getting into the arena of anything other then my own very personal spirituality that has me not seeing that witness state as spiritually based.

Also are you the Mark A. that has been here off and on for a long time? Just curious.
Love,
Robyn

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 23:35:35 (GMT)
From: Mark A
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: In reply to both your threads...
Message:
Yes Robyn.
The reaction of personal stuff
only is an absolutely sane and natural reaction to life,
after we all SWALLOWED THE WHOLE THING. However I just couldn't contract so I have remained open to new infomation and possibilities, and rewatered my heart and mind with what I felt wasn't bullshit or disempowering.I still see a Matrix that I choose to not feed. Bedrock we both seek true personal power,
which connects back to impersonal BIG LOVE.

The witness state is that detached observer part of us yes. The place that you can concsiously hang out in and watch all the numbers we go thru emotionally.It is serene indeed .

Anyway, nice to say hello Robyn,
you might enjoy the light body system taught by Orin and Dabin
(Orindaben.com)- quite enLightening.
Mark

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Date: Wed, May 24, 2000 at 23:08:26 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Mark A
Subject: In reply to both your threads...
Message:
Dear Mark,
Nice to be 'chatting' with you also. :) I did get that site bookmarked but may not get to really check it out for awhile. Have big stuff to deal with in my physical life right now. I know many here may think me new age and some of it I do feel is valid but much of it goes to far and I admit to being leary of anything that might strike me as such. Without any concrete reason I admit to bracing in that way to reading this site but I'll tell you that I do not just go with these first feelings on things. To many times it has been proven to me that they are wrong. I know you don't write her often and don't know if you lurk but once I read it I'll post my feelings and impressions if you like and maybe you will see them and comment.
Right now I NEED A JOB so most of my on line time at home has to be toward that end.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 16:18:43 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: In reply to both your threads...
Message:
Mark,

I am of the opinions there are two extremes in the world of philosphical/religious/spiritual thought. There is faith and romanticism and one end, and analytical logic and behaviourism at the other.

For a long time this confused me very much. It still does really at times.

I came to the realization that the middle ground has to be on a personal level. For me, I try to rely on intuition which to me, incorporates mind, heart, experience and screened opinions of others and their mind, heart and experience. It comes down to a very personal decision based on these factors. It comes down to trust in yourself.

As such, I believe relying on my bliss or the 87.6534 percent of my brain which is soaring with happy, joyful other worldy thoughts, feelings and perceptions, is, for me, ludicrous.

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 18:04:12 (GMT)
From: Mark
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: In reply to both your threads...
Message:
isn't personal decisionmaking wonderful
i'm sure we'll both do just fine

Mark

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 21:14:33 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The effects of detachment
Message:
Elaine made a point earlier along the lines of, you come into this world on your own, and go out of it on your own.

Superficially who could argue with it. But apart from the facts of your mother at birth, and for most people, carers at death, there is another aspect of this.

The main argument for this attitude is that the baby is not aware of where it is, and the dying person is going unconscious, both are purely in their own experience, the external world is becoming irrelevant. But there is plenty of research, both anecdotal and otherwise that the quality of that experience can be affected by the quality of care around, for a baby even pre-birth.

I suspect that the point is really about the fear of annihilation, and with that a loss of hope.

One way, and it's rawats way, the way I model him, is to reach for the bottle called superficial detachment, that hint of zen I found especially useful later, when detaching myself from his creepy head tentacles..

And we all know where that bottle leads, especially, for a lot of premie males from the sixties, as we've seen recently re the premie boyfriend thread stuff.

Imagine what it must be like never having had to do a days work in your life, been able to indulge yourself in your every whim at short notice, and pretty much never meeting anyone who doesn't think that you're god, or at the very least, THE master. No-wonder he lost the plot a bit when he found out she was shagging someone else. What an affront to his dignity.

There are many arguments against the dangers of detachment, but what really interests me is this detachment in gm's case, in the cases of those premie boyfriends, and rather too easily remembered in myself, is unbelievably fake, when the surface is scratched. Proof aplenty for gm, although the prime one for me is his reaction when he found out marilyn was shagging their, their chauffeur I think it was.

True detachment, hardly.

What a cartoon character he is, with those dodgy moustaches, and his stripper routine.
And how lucky we were, he could have insisted on the full monty and think how we would
have had to twist our heads,
even more than usual,
to justify that.

Malcolm Livingstone, defect quickly if you haven't already, what a great script, although you'd probably die early from excessive laughter.

The whole thing is like papier-mache.
Like some bad tv childrens cartoon.
In fact so bad it's close to good, why does Harold and Madge from Neighbours come to mind so easily. Not sure about Madge for Marilyn, but Harold as Mr Rawat aka the Lord of the Universe, this has possibilities.

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 23:12:34 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: hamzen
Subject: You're on a roll tonight Ham!
Message:
(ham roll, I guess) Keep in the flow, it's happening!
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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 23:25:10 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: It's not a full moon is it Nige?
Message:
For some reason something high energy,with clarity of mind, happens then, for me occasionally.
Have you ever read anything on it?
Was working in residential homes for elderly a while back, and some full moons it used to get really wild, certain individuals used to get highly charged.

Thought your post to g was one of the best ever, really crisp & articulate.

While we're on the subject, how are you about house music, and music in general? sending tapes out at the moment, don't know if youu'd be interested?

:)
ham

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 20:01:17 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: ham
Subject: It's not a full moon is it Nige?
Message:
Yeah, I love all kinds of noise (except the schmaltzier kind of Nashville). House, I like, especially when driving at night, but no particular people - it doesn't seem to matter much to my ears who's working the sequencers - but maybe I need educating.

A tape would be good. Thanks. Do you wanna email me?

(The only full-moon studies I have read up on were dealing with the crime-rate and the belief it is supposed to rise at full moon. Looks like there is no good statistical evidence of this when compared with other times of the moon-phase. But there is stuff about psychiatric patients behaving differently at those times, but I don't think it's clear whether that is purely psychological - from actually knowing it is full moon and having beliefs about its effects.)

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 21:01:08 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: It's not a full moon is it Nige?
Message:
I'll e-mail, thought you'd have heard some house.

What were you into back in the 60's-70's, music wise?

In the one homne where I worked the longest, the high energy levels I'm certain were from those people with serious dementia, but you know memories. Think I'll do a web search on this

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 21:27:06 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: The effects of detachment
Message:
I wonder why you chose Harold.
Maybe it was the Harold from the time before he lost his memory?
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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 22:48:40 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Well for a start their waddles, sorry I mean their
Message:
walks, are quite similar, same haughty fatuous grandeur/self-importance, both are know it alls whose self-knowledge is pretty flimsy, both think they're intelligent when they aren't, he'd be perfect, maybe start it with Harold finding himself spiked with acid, experiencing god and going off on a lord-of-the universe trip out along similar routes to David Icke, or you could do it straight, ie the actor doing Harold doing the Life & Times of Mr Rawat. Charlie Chaplin or Phil Silvers, Jerry Lewis or how about Charlie Drake might be better, or what about Norman Wisdom. Norman Wisdom in the 'Life & Times of Mr Rawat.
Perfect, just perfect.

Well me sweeties that's one to conjure with.

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 20:19:23 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: As I was trying to say Raina before our little
Message:
detour, just a very simple point.

Both jesus and gm said they had a connection with god. They didn't just keep this to themselves, they decided that others needed to hear what they had to say.

Whats the beef you say, like any consumer item, people can choose to listen or not. If after jesus died, and around gm, people misunderstood and damage was caused by that misunderstanding, what's that got to do with jesus or gm, they have no responsibility for the effects of their message.

I find such a stance outrageous when used by the NRA, scientists, companies who poison people etc etc.
When used in the spiritual arena, the one place in this world supposedly about love and respect for the sacredness of life, surely it's indefensible.

That's my whole point, hopefully explained more comprehensibly this time.

In terms of gm, their are a number of decisions he's made that have caused serious damage to a number of people, WHERE HE APPEARED TO SHOW NO INTEREST IN THAT DAMAGE, let alone any compassion. Don't you find that even just a little strange, considering the sacredness and sanctity of life, and his awareness and appreciation of it, and that he is crucial to an awareness of that appreciation, is just about the only thing he's talked about for thirty five years?

In fact for someone who has been connected to god's love, or is the cause of god's love, it's difficult to tell sometimes from the way gm speaks, there are very few tangible examples of compassion or love displayed, this again is a little curious.
The best that can be said for him, is that like on those TV stories where someone is arrested, 'he seemed a decent enough chap, kept himself to himself, was never any bother, apart from his helicopter taking off, and the constant stream of flashy new cars, I'm astonished.'

But then what do I know, maybe it's all just god's lila, and this shithole is a prelude to something totally miraculous that justifies everything that's happened here, and guru maharaji is the lord of the universe and the king of kings.

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 01:41:54 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: it's never a simple point....
Message:
if i'm not sure 'Jesus' was actually a living man? how can i read your 'simple point' in 5,987 words w/o punctuation no less?

do you get my point?
(hint: i'm not trying to disagree with you-it just never really makes sense to read on when 'simple points' aren't holding water you know?

whenever people talk about anyone other than themselves, especially about someone who 'died' (or faked a resurrection to make THE 'simple point' of all time) 2000 years ago....i go out on a limb here and reckon to guess that you don't know what 'they decided others needed to hear' etc...not ONLY because you weren't there, we can barely understand each other-so why is it that you feel so sure about writing as if you KNOW what Jesus MEANT or 'decided' etc....know what i mean? where are your question marks? your 'Perhaps', and your 'it seems to me' 's....?

do you know how to simplify?
i mean REALLY simplify?
like only writing what you DO know for sure?
(unless you're into fiction of course)
it makes so much more sense that way-and if only everyone remembered ONLY that ONE little simple point.....

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 02:38:01 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: I disagree, what a surprize!
Message:
if i'm not sure 'Jesus' was actually a living man? how can i read your 'simple point' in 5,987 words w/o punctuation no less?
do you get my point?
(hint: i'm not trying to disagree with you-it just never really makes sense to read on when 'simple points' aren't holding water you know?

Err, yes, I do know what you mean, but I still read all of your posts if I'm going to respond. If we're gonna waste time talking to each other a little graciousness wouldn't go amiss.

Jesus,buddha, jim jones, ronald reagan, insert any name you want, it's not about jesus, that is 'the' point. It's about their responsibilities, any leaders of any power need to acknowledge the responsibilities that comes with that power, power after all, surrendered by the followers, for the greater good.

whenever people talk about anyone other than themselves, especially about someone who 'died' (or faked a resurrection to make THE 'simple point' of all time) 2000 years ago....i go out on a limb here and reckon to guess that you don't know what 'they decided others needed to hear' etc...not ONLY because you weren't there, we can barely understand each other-so why is it that you feel so sure about writing as if you KNOW what Jesus MEANT

Raina do you read any of the posts you respond to, or do you just guess what they are going to say, and respond to that guess? Or do you just scan read using keywords. I never once said anything about the MEANING of his message, solely that at some point he decided to start verbalising it to other people. The assumption is that he thought it was worth it, otherwise he wouldn't have bothered. A pretty uncontentious assumption I would have thought?

or 'decided' etc....know what i mean? where are your question marks? your 'Perhaps', and your 'it seems to me' 's....?
do you know how to simplify?
i mean REALLY simplify?
like only writing what you DO know for sure?

Can you know anything and be sure of it? News to me. Thought it was all models and maps, statistics and probability theory.

(unless you're into fiction of course)

Isn't every moment of self presentation, personal display, a form of fiction, how could it be otherwise?

And of course you know every single one of your views, are 100% certain, come off it raina this isn't kindergarten. Sorry to ask, but are you a premie? If not have you ever spent too long around another cult or spiritual group?

it makes so much more sense that way-and if only everyone remembered ONLY that ONE little simple point.....

Well if we stay in communication with each other it will certainly be lively.

Oh & by t way, the english gentleman mode is a little in-joke, so you must be american since you didn't get it? and never have seen any ealing comedies, fair cop guv an all.
No offence intended.

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 02:46:20 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: if this isn't kindergaarten what is it?
Message:
who said this?

'...you don't have to defend what you believe in. If it is right
and it is good and it is sound it'll defend you...if you give it a chance.'

all by yourself now! no search engines! this isn't kinder gaarten!

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 02:51:26 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: p.s.
Message:
in answer to your question about my reading techniques?
i scan like an agfa, and usually loose interest (and so scan
with less DPI) when the stranger becomes mean...or as they
say in Paris minable?

but being called stupid is only meant to be appreciated, by me,
as a generous way, by you,of keeping me on my toes right? right.
(clear throat).

Can you guess the name of my favorite soap?

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 03:06:45 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: p.p.s.
Message:
'but being called stupid is only meant to be appreciated, by me,
as a generous way, by you,of keeping me on my toes right? right.
(clear throat).'

Who said anything about stupid? I hardly have a mental pic of you, but stupid wasn't even in the frame. Saying I thought something was an agreed, doesn't mean I'm not open to learning, it's my form of a question mark!

raina it's called equal rights, each is allowed to display their reality model and hopefully the communication's worth it.

Oh and sunset beach
not that
I see
many

by the way, thanks for getting me to use html, however unwittingly it was.

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 03:58:30 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: no.
Message:
equal rights and Jesus is it?

my fav soap:
as the stomach turns

maybe you could offer a workshop on 'what It's about'!

and charge money!

we'll be rich

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 04:06:09 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: can i get some feedback on a fine piece a writin'
Message:
in the David 'Censorship' thread.....these twitz ignore me?
but i sensed a beautiful music to a few of the sentences?
what d'ya think?
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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 21:28:06 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: I wouldn't go that far, but it is obvious
Message:
you have a flair for language, could see you doing a dark-side Bridget Jones, or really dark Roald Dahl type children's books. So what are your creative outlets?

Have you ever been to any really good underground house do's?

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 23:51:25 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: are you claiming to be responsible for the most
Message:
memorable, and possibly the one where the word rave was used for the first time? what was that fat cats name?
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Date: Wed, May 24, 2000 at 07:28:13 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: More fill in required, you're getting cryptic on
Message:
me again, or I'm very dense!
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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 01:51:00 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: Well, if it isn't Raina, Queen of Hostile UA
Message:
do you know how to simplify?
i mean REALLY simplify?
like only writing what you DO know for sure?
(unless you're into fiction of course)
it makes so much more sense that way-and if only everyone remembered ONLY that ONE little simple point.....

I don't recall either Ham or especially anyone else here asking for this little fashion tip. No, it seems to be just another viral fleck of that nasty 'Unsolicited Advice' you keep warning us about.

Hm?

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 02:16:09 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: what are you trying to wax?
Message:
did i sound like i was contradicting myself?
shoud i thank you?
i hear you can get killed for that.
(not thanking you, but contradicting yourself...?)

tragedy as roastbeef
you eat it with gravy

i don;t know what this means exactly
just like the way it sounds....

so don't wish that it sounded like i was trying to give you advice

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 21:30:28 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Ham don't you know that....
Message:
Guru is the father of all
The creator of love
He's the Lord of the Universe.....
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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 20:49:12 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: As I was trying to say Raina before our little
Message:
Dear ham,
There is a lot of controversy around Jesus' life. I have read about some of it here. So for me I don't know if the misunderstandings were only after his death. I am not saying he wasn't the son of god, I don't concern myself with it really. Certainly, there were many splits and errors and out right manipulations made as to how to proceed once he was gone. I remember learning in school that the St. James Bible was written with changes some of which were written to control the masses. I can easily believe this could be true.
There is a long list of corrupt religious figures, Jim and Tammy Fay for example. Do you know of the Baker's across the pond? There are so many down to the Christian guy who owns a lunchenette in town who, a year ago admitting to molesting his then 18 yr old step daughter from 6 - 12. Makes me want to puke on him!
This is one of many reasons I can't deal with religion which to me is not far off the mark of cults, I bet a lot of them started out as cults and just over time assumed a positon of legitamet(sp) spirituality! For me spirituality is TOTALLY personal, only based on personal experience. Anything else is just ponderings.
Positively m is NOT at all connected to god so all bets are off for him, imo. He is a weirdo, created by his family who never took responsibility for himself when he was old enough to know better. I know lots of people don't look to hard at themselves but most people don't try to propagate and dictate their divinity and use it to control people.
I am getting fired up and I am going to stop before I spin off in 10 different tangents! I could go on and on though!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 23:02:49 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: And assertiveness and empowerment are needed to
Message:
deny the self surrender required to open yourself to that abuse.

That's why I like it when Jethro brings over those links from the ex-satsangis, it's not just gm, although the way he lies, or is economical with the truth, to cover myself with his lawyers (what a joke), is definitely more dubious than the straight religion of the radha bunch he came from, you're right it's all religions, all leaders, ever, anywhere.

They are all in it up to their necks, but no mugs, no leaders. Don't you find the assertive way most young people are, about religious & political leaders, is a joy to behold. Maybe that's just over here, religion is still hot in america, unlike politics isn't it?

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 23:32:22 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: And assertiveness and empowerment are needed to
Message:
Hey ham,
I don't see religon or politics firing up the youth at the college where I work or in this area in general. Maybe in cities. Christ, a lot of them listen to pop radio for god's sake!
Actually I would love to see them get fired up about politics and if they agreed with me, religion. :) I shouldn't really speculat as I live in such a sheltered place but I think maybe generally that kids are less into changing things for the better and see violence as a way to deal with what they find wrong in this world. Scares me.
I do love having contact with the students at school. I am laid back, friendly but not pushy and I love to watch the dance unfold, their seeing me and slowly coming around to talk and I feel a lot of the time I am voicing a view they don't really hear. I tell them they should be that for me. I am the adult and they are supposed to be vibrant, full of life and strong convictions!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 20:35:44 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: well said, hamzen (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 20:09:46 (GMT)
From: David
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Censorship
Message:
It seems BigM is getting increasingly paranoid about the level of hostility he's receiving on the web. A few years ago I created version two of this site - between Scott Perry's original and Brian's present site.

When I handed over to Brian I put my site out to grass on Geocities and left it there for any cyber-searchers who might gain some harmless entertainment from it.

But now I've had a message from Geocities which reads as follows:

------------------------

The law firm Milbank, Tweed, Hadley and McCloy LLP which is counsel to Elan Vital and Prem Pal Singh Rawat has notified Yahoo! that you are posting content on Yahoo! GeoCities which appears to contain material
copyrighted by Elan Vital and Prem Pal Singh Rawat. Elan Vital and Prem Pal Singh Rawat also has notified Yahoo! that it did not authorize any such use of its copyrighted material on http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Troy/1710/.

In accordance with the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, we have disabled the material on http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Troy/1710/.

-----------------------------

Geocities have taken the site off-line without letting me know what material is supposed to have infringed copyright, which seems a little premature. Does anyone know of any other place I could put the site which would be beyond the grasp of BigM's legal beagles?

David

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 13:02:40 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: David
Subject: Sheesh, David!
Message:
Hi David (Douche) -
Good to hear from you.
As I recall (although my memory is not that great), your site doesn't contain all that much copywrited material. After all, it's been on line for three years, and they haven't had conniption fits about it until now. I'm sure you've already thought of this, but I'd definitely ask for SPECIFIC pages that they have a problem with.

I'm not sure what EV and Maharaji are trying to pull here, but it's reminiscent of some of the stuff Scientology has done in the past, and IMHO is bound to cause a negative reaction.

Did you read the article about the Mormon church trying to close down an anti-Mormon website. It was several threads below, and I believe it was entitled 'another cult copyright case - related?' It was very interesting.

Take care, David -
Hope you and yours are well.

Katie

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 16:06:25 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: BUT WE AIN'T NO MORMONS!
Message:
Joseph Smith can't be dragged into litigation but Maharaji sure can. EV knows that there's no way in the world they can keep him out of any possible litigation concerning their purported copyright of his words or images. All it takes is one deposition to substantially damage, if not destroy, his cult (such as it still exists). Don't forget, the very issues we would want, make that need, to canvass with him under oath are the exact ones he's been avoiding for decades. ....

Mr. Rawat, you said here that ......

Mr. Rawat, did you ever have an instructor in your organization by the name of [Jagdeo, Tejeshwaranand, Trebinanand, etc.]....

Mr. Rawat, this suit was launched by Elan Vital, an organization from which you purport to derive no income......

And if we ran out of questions, judging by last week's post from Loaf, we might expect a few good ones from good ol' Bal Bhagwan Ji!

This is one lawsuit that we can only pray for.

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Date: Wed, May 24, 2000 at 00:01:42 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: you sound like a gangster
Message:
Jimster
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Date: Wed, May 24, 2000 at 01:29:53 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: And you sound like a cute, crazy gadfly
Message:
rainster
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Date: Wed, May 24, 2000 at 01:59:07 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: what's a gadfly?
Message:
divine levis?
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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 21:03:04 (GMT)
From: blood
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Joseph Smith was imprisoned and shot to death
Message:
He was tared and feathered by a mob, then thrown into jail in Carthage Illinois and then shot to death. Basically he was doing about the same thing Maha has been doing, pronouncing himself Prophet and decreeing himself to be the one true way to assurance of attaining the highest outcome.

This is in no way intended to be a threat...just a very similiar historical precedence on the American continent.

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Date: Wed, May 24, 2000 at 15:02:24 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: blood
Subject: There was a schism in the early Mormon church
Message:
To continue the parable of Mormons and M (i.e. Prem Pal and Sat Pal.), there was a schism in the early Mormon church, which continues today.

Some people (Church of Latter Day Saints REFORMED - very different than the LDS) still follow Joseph Smith. Many of them live in Illinois and Missouri. The rest of the Mormons followed Brigham Young to Utah, although there are a lot of them in the Midwest also. (I don't know very much about this - just from Mormon friends - so please correct me if I'm wrong).

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 13:30:09 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Mormon Church vs Southern Baptists on the internet
Message:
Hi again, David - This was about to get archived, so I moved it up. I found it fascinating. I believe 'Utah Lighthouse' is a Southern Baptist group. For those who don't know 'Latter Day Saints' (or LDS) are Mormons. (Emphases in the following excerpted article are mine).
----------------------------------------------
SALT LAKE CITY (BP)--A battle over a copyright infringement lawsuit -- with ramifications for the Internet's informational content, First Amendment rights to freedom of religion and the secretive nature of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints -- may soon be settled out of court.

An attorney for the Mormon Church and one of those involved with the Utah Lighthouse Ministry of Salt Lake City have expressed optimism that negotiations are moving toward a settlement of a lawsuit filed by the Mormon Church against the evangelical ministry for printing -- on its Internet site last July -- portions of an unpublished, copyrighted Mormon book.

On their Utah Lighthouse Ministry's website, www.utlm.org, Sandra and Jerald Tanner posted the excerpts explaining how people may have their names removed from Mormon Church rolls. The effort was part of the cult-watcher ministry's primary mission of exposing heresy pertaining to the Mormon Church and assisting people who want to leave Mormonism. The Tanners obtained the book from an anonymous source who left a copy -- contained on a computer disc -- in their mailbox.

The legal struggle began in October when the Mormon Church, through its Intellectual Reserves, Inc., subsidiary that holds the rights to its intellectual property, sued the Tanners, alleging copyright infringement.

A U.S. district judge subsequently issued a temporary restraining order, a ruling that required the Tanners to remove the pages from their Internet site. The Tanners complied, but later posted an e-mail message from a reader containing Internet addresses where the entire book -- 'Church Handbook of Instructions, Book 1, Stake Presidencies and Bishoprics' that deals with church disciplinary procedures -- could be read.

The Mormon Church, in response, asked the judge to order the Tanners to remove the addresses on the theory they were encouraging others to view and make illegal copies of the handbook pages.

The judge ordered the addresses removed -- igniting a fierce cyberspace debate over whether the ruling restricted the freedom of Internet users from linking one website to another.

'The Internet is all about linking,' said Jeffrey Kuester, a copyright lawyer who practices cyberspace law in Atlanta. The judge's restraining order could have 'a chilling impact on anyone who wants to tell someone else where something can be found on
the Web.'

But T.R. Halvorson, a Sidney, Mont., attorney specializing in cyberspace issues, said the order should not be viewed with alarm, that it is specifically targeted at Web users who post unpublished, copyrighted material or addresses where such material can be viewed and distributed even further via links on the Web. This judge 'is no threat to free speech,' Halvorson said in a study devoted to the case published in March. '[The judge] is not going to destroy the Web as we know it. You are not infringing copyrights when you browse copyrighted material posted to the Web by the copyright holders.'

In this case, the Tanners were not the copyright holders of the book and the Mormons had not made the book available, he noted.

However, the Tanners' Salt Lake City attorney, Brian Barnard, said the information posted by the Tanners had been circulating on the Internet for six months and that they removed it as soon as they were contacted. Barnard said the legal action by the
Mormon Church has more to do with the mission of Utah Lighthouse than it does with anything else.

'The Tanners have been critics of the LDS Church for some time,' Barnard said. ' I think they are being singled out for this litigation. The New York Times put up URLs [Internet addresses] with links to the same information as my clients put up. The Salt Lake City Tribune published the same URLs and neither The Tribune nor The New York Times is being sued. So it appears this litigation is based more on a theological dispute.

Other observers question the merit of the original lawsuit, arguing that most copyrightinfringement cases involve things like selling or distributing unauthorized copies of computer software. In such cases, the argument goes, the copyright infringement reduces the copyright holder's capacity to make a profit on the copyrighted material.

But the LDS has no plans to make a profit off the publication involved in the Tanner lawsuit, leaving theorists to ask, 'How does the free distribution of a small part of it hurt the LDS?'

Neither side in the legal battle would divulge how the issues might be settled through their ongoing negotiations.

'There has been some discussion between the parties that may lead to a settlement,'Berne Broadbent, an attorney for the Mormon Church, told Baptist Press April 6. Broadbent said he did not know when a settlement might be reached. Sandra Tanner said she thinks the Mormons 'just want to get rid of this whole thing'
because allies interested in protecting the Internet's freedom to share information are lining up to join in the legal fray. Indeed the San Francisco-based Electronic Frontier Foundation, a nonprofit group that studies cyberspace freedom of expression issues, has promised to get involved in the case by filing its own brief expressing its reservations about the restriction imposed on the Tanners from the restraining order.

'We will not pay any money or admit to any guilt, but we will agree to destroy the disc that has the book,' Tanner told Baptist Press April 6. 'By them going after us, they have created a backlash by people who would have never thought of it. It has been a boost to our Internet site and brought many people to us that might otherwise would not have known about us.'

While the legal battle may soon end, debates over the secretive operations of the Mormon Church and individuals' First Amendment rights to freedom of religion will linger.

Tanner, who was featured in a video explaining Mormon beliefs issued prior to the 1998 Southern Baptist Convention annual meeting in Salt Lake City by the SBC's North American Mission Board, said Utah Lighthouse Ministry's website was established to let people know that 'the Mormon religion is false, that Joseph Smith is a false prophet and that they are in danger of jeopardizing their eternal welfare.'

(...)
Tanner said people outside the Mormon Church are amazed they have a handbook that they would hide.

For the first time people realized there was a handbook,' she said. 'Suppressing something creates more interest. I don't understand why the church didn't have an open policy to begin with.'

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 18:40:04 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Thanks Katie. ESSENTIAL reading IMHO (nt)
Message:
Thanks Katie. ESSENTIAL reading IMHO (nt)
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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 14:33:54 (GMT)
From: blood
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Utah Lighthouse not Southern Bap. it is LDS exs
Message:
Katie, Utah Lighthouse Ministries is not a southern Baptist group. It is a group of EX-mormons who do everything they can do to hold the Mormon cult responsible for their revisionism, their mass murders (mountain meadows massacre) their racism etc.

The Mormon church did not allow blacks to hold the priest hood until recently when the so called Prophet of the church conveniently had a revelation that it was time to open the so called highest positions to the blacks.

The Mormon Church functions very similiarly to M attempting to keep as much control of its own very shady history as possible at whatever cost. They have the money and the power to do this. They consider anyone who researchs too deeply an apostate and forbid the members to investigate anything besides what the bishop tells them. (Leave no room for doubt)

The temple ceremonies of the LDS were completely plagerized from the Masons. The entire book of Mormon was plagerized from a book published two years before in a neighboring county in up- state New York called View of the Hebrews.

The LDS church has acheived mainstream status by the mere fact that it has existed for 150 years. It is a cult in every sense of the word. It is extremely difficult for people to leave this cult.

The LDS Church is extremely wealthy...owning banks, financial institutions, newspaper publications, broadcasting operations and an almost unknowable asset sheet due to its non-profit status. An army of LDS devotees work to keep the image of this cult polished and keeping the faithful in line.

It may very well resemble DLM or EV a hundred years into the future if the madness is not stopped.

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 15:23:02 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: blood
Subject: Thanks for the correction!
Message:
But it made such a good title!

Again, I appreciate you bringing this article to our attention.

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 15:53:41 (GMT)
From: blood
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Great Title alright...Baptists are allies to ex-mo
Message:
I made a common error in saying too little in original copyright submittal. The ex-mormons are not unlike the ex-premies. Fighting to battle a cult. The ex-mo's have developed some good allies in thier fight. The Southern Baptist church has full time press and is always ready to publish the kernels of findings the ex-mo's come up with.

Something the ex-premies could use is a good ally. Especially, because the only apparent organization which exists with the ex-prems is in this forum...and that seems to be, at best, anarchistic most of the time (not to knock it.) It may take more organization and effort to knock out the insidious and toxic mind pollution M is proliferating.

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Date: Wed, May 24, 2000 at 01:28:31 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: blood
Subject: Well, I live in Virginia...
Message:
Jerry Falwell is about an hour and a half away from me, and Pat Robertson lives about five hours from here. Not that I'm all that fond of either of their stances, but this IS a Southern Baptist stronghold.
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Date: Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 01:34:45 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: my heart goes out to you...no wonder
Message:
talk about that stifling feeling...my god woman....you're a braver soul than i mistakenly judged you for...

(won't be much for discussing this)...just had to give a shout out...

but since you've told me that this is very much your site (in detail), should i be doubly vulgar
no holds barred sort of thing if we do exchange thoughts......? so no one will think that someone has to be 'your friend' to feel free here.....you know....? (what a drag to have to explain one's sense of humour)

just to maintain that necessarily enigmatic element of 'wisdom' etc.....a 'public FORUM'

frrrmmm frrmm frrrmmmm frrmmmm

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Date: Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 02:15:00 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: it's not SO bad here
Message:
Hi Raina -

I'm actually FROM Virginia - but the DC area, which is very different. Anyway, I've lived in so many different places in my life that I've become relatively adaptable. Yes, a big confession for me at work is to tell people that I'm not 'a Christian'! (I only tell certain people this, too - there's sort of a don't ask-don't tell - or rather just assuming EVERYONE is a Christian - attitude here. For example, if there is a 'blessing' at a public function here, they always say 'In Jesus' Name'. This when there are MANY Jewish and Muslim people in the community. Anyway, enough said about that!)

Re this being 'my' site - it is not, particularly the forum. The forum is one of those independently-operated subdidiary things - and Brian and I don't mess with it. Nor do we want to, having done our time as Forum Administrators (the job sucks, truthfully.) Brian and I are basically responsible for keeping ex-premie.org on line - putting on new contributions, Journeys entries (how about YOURS?), White Pages, etc. We've been doing this since January of 1998 - sometimes we think we're crazy, but then no one else has stepped forward to volunteer to do it.

You wrote:
but since you've told me that this is very much your site (in detail), should i be doubly vulgar no holds barred sort of thing if we do exchange thoughts......? so no one will think that
someone has to be 'your friend' to feel free here.....you know....? (what a drag to have to explain one's sense of humour)

Again (and I am sorry), I am not entirely sure I 'get' what you mean - and again, it is NOT MY SITE. Yeah, you can take the gloves off, but I just don't want you to be surprised if I take MINE off too. I can be pretty bitchy/nasty/hateful at times, although one wouldn't know it by my usual forum persona (and that's part of the trouble with these stupid personas - you get stuck in them!). But don't worry about me getting you blocked or anything - that's not gonna happen (I'm assuming that you read Brian's explanations about the forum being 'LOCKED'!) Anyway, you don't have to be 'my friend' if you don't want to be - it won't have any effect on your subsequent forum posts.

Listening to Concrete Blonde 'Bajo La Luna Mexicana'. Do you have it? The song 'Jonestown' is so creepy - and brings back such bad memories - that I put a warning label on a tape I made for an ex-premie friend of mine.

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Date: Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 14:57:19 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: it's not SO bad here
Message:
when i wrote 'your site (in detail)' it came out all wrong-i was trying to say the things like the paperwork etc basically make it yours in a way......however you want to look at it...

and i was trying to be funny about 'no holds barred'......i guess that didn't translate to well either....

right after hearing M for the first time, i was swept away to Virginia (about a month afterwards actually)....a place called Estouteville. Beatrix and Ludwig Ost? Do you know them? they weren't involved with M (as far as i knew), but ...actually-i'm still a bit hesitant to start naming all the names of the people who brought me there just yet....but i'm sure you must know them.....

later....

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 18:50:19 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: blood
Subject: re: good allies
Message:
If, just IF, the Maha got his way and even managed to close down THIS site - just think what a field-day the likes of Michael Moore would have with that!

Thanks for the attention, Prem Pal (open mouth...) Singh ( ... insert foot) Rawat!

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 04:38:22 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: David
Subject: Milbank Tweed Hadley = Bob Jacobs = MONEY = GMJ
Message:
Ah! Here we see Maharaji's in-residence tax attorney,
Bob Jacobs tax specialist partner at Milbank, earn his keep.

Don't forget that Bob Jacobs is a 'player' on virtually every single corporate document related to Maharaji's corporate empire.

You'd better believe that Bob makes the big bucks. And some of those bucks came from premie slave labor schmucks like you and me.

Go fuck yourself, Bob!

Roger eDrek the little man who tells the big man off

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 11:31:18 (GMT)
From: A.P.
Email: antiprem@aol.com
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Your site
Message:
This seems like a great time for you to finish your site. Expose more of the players. I check back time and again to see the completion of the corporate shenanigans.
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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 11:12:15 (GMT)
From: Angry
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Milbank Tweed Hadley /I wonder how this firm....
Message:
would like a peaceful demonstration outside their prestigious law offices. 'Milbank, Tweed and Hadley defend notorious cult leader-Guru Maharaj Ji'.
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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 04:43:34 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Bob Jacobs, do your friends on the hill know this
Message:
From Bob's little bio at Milbank:

He served as Assistant Branch Chief of the Corporate Tax Branch in the Office of the Chief Counsel for the Internal Revenue Service and as special counsel to Treasury Secretary Fowler. He also served on the Advisory Group to Senate Finance Committee Staff on Subchapter C Revision.

Bob, you could be the laughing stock of D.C. and your little circle of rich-guy elitist tax attorney wheeler dealers if they knew you sucked on Maharaji's toes.

Roger eDrek the unabashed Yellow Journalist and one who assumes that this guy must have at one time or another gouged on his eye balls in search of the light

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 04:48:08 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: bummed they didn't send no letters to me
Message:
Damn, everywhere I go I'm just a wannabe.

Git your free pictures of Maharaji here!

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 02:56:41 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: David
Subject: and next logical question
Message:
What are they trying to do about EPO?

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 02:56:02 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: David
Subject: Censorship
Message:
In accordance with the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, we have disabled the material on http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Troy/1710/.

The operative word here is disabled. If you read the material available via the link that GAC posted ( Digital Millenium Copyright Act ) you'll see that they have to put the material BACK within 14 days of a counter-notice received from you. They are only covering their asses as the law requires in order to maintain the immunity granted to them as providers.

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 16:30:52 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Brian, Dave et al.
Subject: Censorship and service providers
Message:
Strikes me that the onus is on Rawat to inform the Online Service Provider (OSP) exactly which material on the site is infringing copyright. For the whole site to be shut down simply simply because a certain percentage of it infringes copyright might bring a gleam to Mr Rawat's beady eye, but there's no way he could censor original material/discussion about his little scam.

The following is from http://www.arl.org/info/frn/copy/osp.html:

QUOTE:
Among the elements of the notice and takedown process are the following:

Proper written notification from a copyright owner to an OSP must include:

* the name, address and electronic signature of the complaining party,
* sufficient information to identify the copyrighted work or works,
* the infringing matter and its Internet location,
* a statement by the owner that it has a good faith belief that there is no legal basis for the use of the materials complained of, and
* a statement of the accuracy of the notice and, under penalty of perjury, that the complaining party is authorized to act on behalf of the owner.

Any misrepresentation of material facts will subject the offending party to claims for damages and attorneys fees.


Good Samaritan Immunity and 'Notice and Put Back.'
If the OSP complies in good faith with the statutory requirements, the new law immunizes it from liability to subscribers and third parties; however, this immunity is conditioned upon affording the affected subscriber notice of the action. If a subscriber files a proper 'counter notice,' attesting to its lawful use of the material, then the OSP must 'promptly' notify the copyright owner and within 14 business days restore the material, unless the matter has been referred to a court. The counter notice must contain these elements:

* The subscriber's name, address, phone number and physical or electronic signature.
* Identification of the material and its location before removal.
* A statement under penalty of perjury that the material was removed by mistake or misidentification.
* Subscriber consent to local federal court jurisdiction, or if overseas, to an appropriate judicial body.

ENDQUOTE

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 16:46:09 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Censorship and service providers
Message:
M does nothing original. What would it take to get the copyright police back onto him?
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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 18:57:55 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: Funny you should say that
Message:
There was a time when he expressed the wish that his message could be spread all over the world.

And now the cold feet, already?

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 08:30:23 (GMT)
From: David
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Thanks for advice
Message:
Many thanks to everyone who offered advice. I'll follow Brian's suggestion and see if I can get Geocities to reinstate the site following the 14 day period. I'll let you know how I get on.

David (the Douche, not the Sir).

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 14:43:21 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: D@vid
Subject: I DIDN'T SAY 'WAIT 14 DAYS'!
Message:
I said Geocities was REQUIRED BY LAW to replace your site content WITHIN 14 DAYS OF RECEIVING YOUR COUNTER-NOTICE.

They don't give a good goddam what's on your site as long as they don't become a liable party to a legal dispute over the content. So they are covering their asses by taking the legal steps required by law to maintain their immunity.

The next step is that they restore it after receiving your counter-notice. That takes them legally out of the 'dispute' - which moves to the courts if Rawat wants to pursue it.

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 19:03:43 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: I DIDN'T SAY 'WAIT 14 DAYS'!
Message:
That's 'within' - as in 'inside'?
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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 14:50:15 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Thanks, Brian
Message:
And after Geocities restores the site, Rawat has to decide whether or not to sue; and if they do sue, as the Act also provides, David can argue 'fair use' of any of the supposedly copyrighted material, for criticism, public service, educational, etc., purposes, all of which, I think, David would be easily able to show, and knowing this, Milbank would never recommend Rawat sue. (Not to mention the negative publicity for the publicity-phobic 'master.')

Also, in order to sue, Rawat would have to show that he FILED all the copyrighted material with the government and I bet you dimes to donuts he has never done that and probably wouldn't, because it would demonstrate that DLM and EV are, in fact, one and the same entity.

So, David, for all of us, and for the cause of free speech, be sure to file your counter with Geocities and get your site back up on line.

By the way, I am told that Sir David's 'Truth About Maharaji' site has also been shut down by Geocities, probably for the same reason.

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 15:23:53 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Also...
Message:
Bob Jacobs is probably doing this pro bono for M by writing some boilerplate cease and desist letters, but if it goes to litigation, a firm like Milbank is not going to perform pro bono litigation, particularly if the client is a millionaire. It's a shoving match right now, and it's important to shove back at this point.
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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 02:49:45 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: David
Subject: Welcome to the club!
Message:
May I suggest you to use my new copyright-free pagee ?
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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 03:35:24 (GMT)
From: blood
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: links or urls please to your site....
Message:
This is important for all concerned to be able to know exactly what is up and what has been challenged by EV.

Certainly worthy of a web page documenting this tyranical activity by EV and M. It is extremely newsworthy when copyrights are challenged on the internet.

This is big stuff that is coming down which if well documented might assist in bringing down M. Whoever has these facts regarding copyright challenges and removal of websites has the most damning evidence of revisionism, control, and manipulation.

Three cheers for all who contribute to the damnation of M.

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 19:22:37 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: blood
Subject: Damnation? Oh, all right: Hip hip - hooray! x3(nt)
Message:
Damnation? Oh, all right: Hip hip - hooray! x3(nt)
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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 02:09:42 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: David
Subject: what would it take to satisfy you?
Message:
Since it was 'M' people that taught me that certain rulers rule by simply creating their own opposition, i might hasten to guess that Maharaji may be just that clever?

are you going for blood? for tears? ( i will stop from typing 'sweat' but do you know what i mean to ask?) is there a 'death' element? (from some, if even only for a second?)

is it a tortuous eternity you would choose for him?

i'm not meaning to imply that you are so consumed by any obsession? But if you are? Do you require help monetarily to get things back onto where you're sure they were meant to be?

should i start a thread on top that reads 'Take your shot'....? for maharji today? and for you tommorrow? for me next week, where the one who hates me most will get to twist something out of context for the purpose of inflicting pain (tis a far far) .........how is that ever impressive? i guess only when it can't possibly get any better....that's pretty gone...

How should I know you are not 'The Kings own created enemy in our theatres of war?

just thinking out loud-btw
don't necessarily need your answer, so feel no obligation.

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 13:59:54 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: what would it take to satisfy you?
Message:
Hi Raina -
With all due respect, I didn't really understand what you were trying to say in your post, so please do not take the following as 'projection'.

The ex-premie sites are important to me, and I assume to others, because we either know, or ARE, people who suffered from being involved in Maharaji's organization. I have a premie friend who committed suicide (that's the whole reason I got involved in this site in the first place), and other people who post here (notably Jim) have had premie friends who committed suicide too. Also, many of us know of families that have been broken up, children who have been neglected, and lives that have generally been ruined because of people's devotion to Maharaji.

I cannot get an idea from your posts of who you think Maharaji is. I sense that you either think he is a good man who is being unfairly blamed for the actions of some of his followers, or that he is a coyote-type 'trickster' who cannot be understood by most people. Forgive me if I'm wrong - and if I'm projecting. My point is that the EFFECTS of what Maharaji has said and done, coupled with amplification of these effects through his organization, have hurt many people.

I do know that there are FAR worse things going on in the world than Maharaji's little organization. However, I have chosen to focus my efforts on this site and forum (although it's not the only thing I do) because it's a place where I can get and give help because of my experience with Maharaji. If one person gets help through this site - and many have - then the time and energy I and others have put into it are worth it.

What do I wish for Maharaji? Honestly, I wish he would retire. I don't hate him, although he and those around him do make me quite angry at time. But until he does retire, I think that I and others have a responsiblity to make sure that the OTHER side of Maharaji's story gets heard. He certainly goes to enough effort to make sure that HIS version is the only one that reaches people, and I don't think that's right. People should know all the facts and be able to make decisions BASED on these facts.

Take care -
Katie

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Date: Wed, May 24, 2000 at 04:03:47 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Your response, Katie,
Message:
is much better than the initial question deserved, but I'm very glad you wrote it.

Speaking as one of those who your and many others efforts helped enormously, it was very nice to read of your motivations.

It is soooooo obvious to me who is telling it like it is, and who is hiding and lying and manipulating.

Despite the huge array of positions and objections of people at this Forum, the whole site(now including J-M's stuff) is very well presented and essential to get a real picture of this guy some 'friend' once invited me to learn about.

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Date: Wed, May 24, 2000 at 15:06:46 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: Thanks, Daneane
Message:
I think it would be interesting to have a thread based on how and why people got into either the forum or ex-premie.org. This could also include a history of the site (been on line since 1997), and of the original posts on alt.support.ex-cult that inspired the site.
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Date: Wed, May 24, 2000 at 05:52:58 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: NO ONE
Subject: Since the initial question was for DAVID?
Message:
i guess it would be up to him to decide it's worth?

but of course Katie seems comfortable answering q's
for everyone...? in general and for everyone!

oh i am so unworthy.....

i herby get on my knees and worship LOGIC-
and shun and puke on the interefering nasty cutting
hatrid from zombies looking for gang war, safety
in numbers mentality to deal with their schizt?

whoever you are? this isn't even to you....
it just general expression of disgust
at the evidence layed out right here before us....

and i PREY it will end now?
if you're looking for new ways to shadow box?
i'm not interested (literally)

did anyone see the Tom Greene Cancer special?

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Date: Wed, May 24, 2000 at 06:24:15 (GMT)
From: Margaret
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: Since the initial question was for DAVID?
Message:
R:

This is a public forum, so it should come as no surprise that a variety of people will respond to a particular topic in a thread. If you want no interaction other than with the person to whom you're speaking, it's best to do so privately via email (or whatever), and not be offended if it appears that someone else has responded. I think Katie's comments were fine and on point. She wasn't answering any question you might have asked David, but attempted to communicate what she perceived. You might not agree with Katie's perceptions, but she possesses the same right to express them as you possess to express yours.

Tx

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Date: Wed, May 24, 2000 at 17:05:19 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Margaret
Subject: Since the initial question was for DAVID?
Message:
Hi Margaret -
I believe that what you are saying is true - I have often jumped in on threads between two people, and the reverse has happened to me. It's pretty hard (and somewhat rude) to have a private conversation on a public forum. And we don't have separate rooms here like they do in some chat rooms :).

Just one thing I'd like to add - if someone doesn't want to take it to e-mail, for whatever reason - they should clearly state in their post that they want only DAVID (or whoever) to respond. This has worked in the past.

Thanks -
Katie

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Date: Wed, May 24, 2000 at 14:02:10 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Margaret
Subject: you've found your purpose in life!
Message:
to explain what couldn't be more obvious
to people who didn't ask for your opinion?

but wait a minute! let me make sure i get it
before i loose you? this is a PUBLIC forum?
and people can say what they want?

oh! ok! now i get it!

so like i can just go nuts and call myself
a stupid goddamm motherfucker asshole
like that? like this?

and anyone else?

wo! feel the power!

people say they hate sarcasm...but really...what would we do w/o it you know?

SO nice to meet you!
thanx for rocking my world!

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Date: Wed, May 24, 2000 at 15:40:22 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: Who/what is it you're angry with Raina? (nt)
Message:
Who/what is it you're angry with Raina? (nt)
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Date: Wed, May 24, 2000 at 18:51:38 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: ... apart from me, for asking the question (nt)
Message:
Who/what is it you're angry with, Raina?

... apart from me, for asking the question (nt)

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Date: Wed, May 24, 2000 at 23:02:02 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Im not even reading this mess! who says i'm angry?
Message:
the last thing i said to Katie was 'no hard feelings'....and whatever.....let it go.....

so let's see now? 5! more responses from katie (along with Deeneen and Marge!!)
telling me 'what's wrong with me' crap etc.....

i haven't even looked at what she's written-i'll look at it later......(maybe)....

i have this curious side that optimistically thinx 'maybe it's not negative!'
but i'll bet the lot......it will be.....

what do you think they really want from me?
i left this place for a few daze last week (?) and i did so much writing for myself....
maybe i should just split again for a while....(maybe that's what they're driving me to do!!!)

et tu cq!?
angry you say?
how can you tell honey?

even Hamzen is down there somewhere telling me I'm 'not straight with people'!!!
giving me MORE advice!!!!!

you must get sick of it yourself? no?

everytime i feel like i want to tell someone to come visit MY web site...these nasty hag gang bangs start happening....and it becomes SCARY to imagine just how fucked in the head some of these nut jobs really might be (i mean hatefully wanting to cross lines etc-)

and i'll tell you a secret.....i've barely even listened to an M tape for years (i do think of things he said often that makes sense...but not 'HIM') i haven't been to a meeting or seen a video in so many years etc...but just interacting with these people here sometimes makes me feel sorry for him AND understand what the hell he was always trying to say-that human being cause this SHIT for each other! i mean read 'zelda's' last post to me (up top 'Tabloids and 'something or other)!! i mean just HOW seriously does everyone take each other? not just you i mean the whole lot.....i'm not looking to make one more false friend in my life etc.....i didn't come here to make 'buddie' -i can't pretend to understand, and then not say what i'm REALLY thinking when the truth might hurt a little....cruel to be kind and all that..........

the only reason i'm here is because i thought i was a poster-child for M devotion (i do crave interaction with people but on a diff level i guess)....ironically i've discovered even moreso, that my life wasn't fucked up by M as much as it was by the kinds of NASTY bitchy bitches shit that went on in this thread (no matter how 'polite' and subtle it appears you can FEEL the repression that these people endure in themselves-it's scary)......for 10 years people have been threatening me for not 'bowing out' once in a while......like i need to be 'taught a lesson!' sort of thing! and more and more it's so blaringly obvious what is REALLY wrong with my life.........people just plain fucking suck...........

can't you see it? imagine if I, like M, became famous for something imparticular (let's just say I found a cure for cancer-something NOBLE!) can't you just see the likes of people like some of these people like Stonor and SB DESPERATELY trying to alert the media with information about 'knowing' me and about my telling people to 'kill themselves' (their words of course) or something like that -do you know? that's what the M attack looks like when they all feel their little comfort level on the forum is being threatened with something a little fresher, a little less stenchy.....bad example....my point is,um,.....ok i know! perfect example!:

in REAL life i have a 'friend' who stole a Keith Harring subway drawing/w/original frame that was appraised by Christy's in 1987 at about $5000............today it's obviously worth a bundle more......but she claims it just 'disappeared' (interestingly enough! this was when i was doin M in LA for almost a year-maybe M's people took it along with my rent-subsidized lease?-but instead of talking about that-which might have something to it-we have to get SUCKED into this bullshit popularity contest-it it me or does it seem like someone's posting a whole hell of a lot more up top? maybe wishing to pass this gass sooner?) anyway...

she (My 'x-friend') feels very safe knowing that i am broke and takes every oppurtunity to take a jab at my 'sanity' with mutual friends etc.....but how would it look if one day i actually found the Harring, and therefore could actually turn the tables on her...............oh god............that's not the right example either..........but do you know what i'm trying to say? and do you understand why i'm not embarrassed that i'm having trouble at the moment articulating? because EVERYONE does it or has had it done to them-even by the whores they call their wives!

i always want to fight with irony..... i guess it's a donkey Hoti thing?

angry? me?

niao 4 ciao

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Date: Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 01:32:26 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: You see you can do it, and it wasn't so
Message:
difficult was it :)

Nice post Raina, and straight as a die it felt to me,
part of the problem I've had with you is that I wasn't sure if you weren't a complete fake just fuckin around and havin a larf, your ironic musings can come over that way.

Err, what about the abuse you've slung at me?
And the advice?
It can come over as a touch arrogant.

I know you wouldn't want special allowances, so what's the score?

So you really think everyones fucked and you're not, if so why bother communicating with anyone, you've guaranteed the result before you start, what's the point?

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Date: Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 03:19:11 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: wow! my own personal 'will' trainer!
Message:
could someone please tell this guy for me?
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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 15:44:13 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: what would it take to satisfy you?
Message:
although most people prefer to have others speak for them (which is why M does what he does the way he does it-badly we might argue...)

But I guess you're saying that such horrible things have happened to so many people (like loosing friends to death) that i shouldn't expect any response?

Do you think it's possible that some people would want to see him dead? It certainly might seem so...especially if people have died because of him! (I'm not saying this is right-just asking a question...)

Im not belittling anyone's feelings as i am simply curious to understand them.....

Senseless, off the mark attacks towards anyone, no matter how much i might despise them myself, sickens me. literally!

except for some ...it seems a lot of people here either ignore me, or want to rape me verbally....i know what you mean about 'wanting to help'....it's just our nature....(believe me i don't needa kissa boo boo)

and i try to remember that people get so comfortable in their hatred and pain, that they don't want anyone to try to take it away....sometimes ever.....

so how do you define 'helping'?

what i was trying to point out in that last post was that there is no way for people (like myself) to be sure that this site isn't run by M himself!

Do yourself a favor and re-read that post, using a rapid english accented tempo.....it's like Shakespeare in some moments! (ya i know i should be embarrassed for sounding like such an asshole! Viva le Forum!)) i bet you'd never (even sweetly) tell shakespeare that you 'had trouble' understanding etc....but i'm flattered that you took the time to tell me! thanx for the 'help'! Maybe you were too busy to give it the amount of time it needs! to be savorred!

I'll spell it out for you-I find that the SUBLTEST, kindest, polite people can still have this way of sneaking in a condescending insult-and i'm talking SUBTLE......as fascinating as Scott T's questions about PIM's are.....maybe it's not about quantity as much as quality reading right?

sorry to sound slightly bitchy.....it's the irony i'm scoffing not you.....
the irony that diagnosi of 'slow learners' or 'insanity' comes from there simply not being enough time in the world for everyone to understand everyone! (Especially when people still write like they're handing in essays for an 8th grade quiz, and have never had an original thought in their lives)

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Date: Wed, May 24, 2000 at 02:17:53 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: Raina...
Message:
Raina -
Trying to answer...

But I guess you're saying that such horrible things have happened to so many people (like loosing friends to death) that i shouldn't expect any response?

No, I was trying to say that that is why some people on this site are so upset with Maharaji and company.

Do you think it's possible that some people would want to see him dead? It certainly might seem so...especially if people have died because of him! (I'm not saying this is right-just asking a question...)

All I can say (without projecting) is that I certainly don't want to see him dead. As I said, I would just like him to retire. He ought to have the bucks to do it by now, and I sometimes think he has the desire as well.

Im not belittling anyone's feelings as i am simply curious to understand them.....
Senseless, off the mark attacks towards anyone, no matter how much i might despise them myself, sickens me. literally!

I don't like them myself, but there is a lot of that on this site - sometimes towards Maharaji and sometimes towards other posters. I can at least rationalize attacks against Maharaji by saying that the person making them has had a LOT of anger built up for a long time, and needs to get it out - sometimes in a not too clearly expressed way. As far as attacks on other posters - and I mean way-out-of-line attacks, I deplore them. We're all just sitting here typing - how do we know enough to totally defame someone ELSE who is just sitting there typing?

except for some ...it seems a lot of people here either ignore me, or want to rape me verbally....i know what you mean about 'wanting to help'....it's just our nature....(believe me i don't needa kissa boo boo) and i try to remember that people get so comfortable in their hatred and pain, that they don't want anyone to try to take it away....sometimes ever.....

True.

so how do you define 'helping'?

Listening, trying to understand, trying to hear what is being said, relating similar experiences, asking questions, showing an interest in the person as a human being, caring about what happens to people.

what i was trying to point out in that last post was that there is no way for people (like myself) to be sure that this site isn't run by M himself!

Well, I certainly didn't figure that one out! I thought you were talking about the strategy involved in closing down the sites. Oh well. Anyway, I can assure you that M doesn't run this site. I can't PROVE it to you - unless I suppose you want to come to my house and meet me, but can we ever really PROVE anything in life?

Do yourself a favor and re-read that post, using a rapid english accented tempo.....it's like Shakespeare in some moments! (ya i know i should be embarrassed for sounding like such an asshole! Viva le Forum!)) i bet you'd never (even sweetly) tell
shakespeare that you 'had trouble' understanding etc....but i'm flattered that you took the time to tell me! thanx for the 'help'! Maybe you were too busy to give it the amount of time it needs! to be savorred!

Raina, I don't understand Shakespeare very easily - I usually need a commentary, an Elizabethan dictionary, or a teacher who will explain what he's trying to say! I read your post twice, and I still didn't get it. As I said once before, maybe your brain and mine are so different that I just don't 'get' what you are trying to say. In saying this, I am NOT saying that no one here understands that you are saying, I am saying that *I* personally have a hard time understanding some of your posts.

I'll spell it out for you-I find that the SUBLTEST, kindest, polite people can still have this way of sneaking in a condescending insult-and i'm talking SUBTLE......as fascinating as Scott T's questions about PIM's are.....maybe it's not about quantity as much as quality reading right?

I think you're talking about covert hostility. Because I was raised in an extremely covertly hostile environment, I try to avoid covert hostility whenever possible. (Yeah, it's ingrained in all of us, but it makes me physically ill when I see myself doing it. I could write reams about this, but I won't.) Also, I hope you're not implying covert hostility on my part. To me, it's not worth trying to have a conversation with someone who keeps accusing me of being covertly hostile.

sorry to sound slightly bitchy.....it's the irony i'm scoffing not you.....the irony that diagnosi of 'slow learners' or 'insanity' comes from there simply not being enough time in the world for everyone to understand everyone! (Especially when people still write like they're handing in essays for an 8th grade quiz, and have never had an original thought in their lives)

Not sure if you're being slightly insulting here or not, but I'll take it that you're not. I know a lot about 'slow learners' - I am related to a couple of them. And I know that there are people that don't understand me and will never understand me, no matter how clearly I speak (for example, my ex-husband). Are you saying that you fall into this category? Because really, I don't want to pick a fight with you. I posted to you because you asked for an answer - I tried to be as honest as I could with you - and I'm really not into getting into it with you because of my answer to your post. It was sincerely meant, and I hope you took it that way. But if I get on your nerves, or if you don't like what I write, or the style in which I write it, then how much use is sincerity? Seriously (and I'm not trying to be bitchy here either - just realistic).

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Date: Wed, May 24, 2000 at 03:14:33 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: So This Site Is Yours? (!)
Message:
on the subject of 'helping each other clear things up' etc I thought i could sum things up by responding to this part of your post:

Katie:
'And I know that there are people that don't understand me and will never understand me, no matter how clearly I speak (for example, my ex-husband).'

personally-it's a not a problem understanding you as much as why you are (bothering) to say it (and for example repeat yourself a la hallmark (not a dig) A LOT. Like you'll not only state the obvious, but you'll re-explain it in a longer post! don't mind me? it's cute....and it's your site 2 boot right? (BTW thanx 4 the fun!)

i hate getting to the point to quickly sometimes-there's just no way to avoid the risk of someone thinking you are possibly being cruel.....

re: 'defamation' did you mean everyone except M? and are you implying that you have a problem with my paraphrasing of Stonor's own (italix) words...as in from the horse's mouth.....?

if so or if not PLEASE consider that i may really not need to hear about it would you?

it's always fascinating to find example of example of the very source of poverty and all that it brings with it....

if it sounds like i'm being a snotty show-off-i'm really not-it's just been so long since anyone's allowed me to dance.......even pre-ejac i rule!

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Date: Wed, May 24, 2000 at 13:58:38 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: No, it's not MINE! Sheesh!
Message:
Hi again, Raina -
I was hoping to end this thing on good terms, but we are just NOT understanding each other. For one thing, I am still trying to figure out why you're here. Anyway, here goes some factual statements:

I answered your post to David (Douche) because he is very rarely present on the forum, and you posed some questions I thought I could answer. If you want your post to be answered ONLY by the person you address it to, please make that clear - otherwise it likely will get answered by other people. That's the way of the forum.

About this being 'my site' - absolutely not true, and, if I might point this out, this was a BIG assumption on your part from what I said. Brian and I take care of the software, liason with the server and with other ex-premies, and put on new content as it appears. I'm talking about 'ex-premie.org' here, NOT the forum. The forum is hosted on ex-premie.org, but is administered by other people. What I was TRYING to say is that if you met me, or Brian, or Jim Heller, or JW, or Jean-Michel, or SB, or whoever, you'd see that we weren't Maharaji (you did say that M could possibly be running this site.)

Re 'defamation' - I never mentioned the word or concept, so I don't know what you're referring to. Ditto with your comment about Stonor.

As far as you saying that you understand me, I don't think you do - and I am basing this on your replies. You've made it clear that you think my posts are repetitive, my replies are obvious, that I express myself like a 'Hallmark Card' (whatever that is), and that 'you don't need to hear' what I have to say. Anyway, I'll try and avoid answering your posts in the future for all the above reasons.

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Date: Wed, May 24, 2000 at 14:38:32 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: p.s. The Big AssUmption
Message:
Katie Wrote:
'Anyway, I can assure you that M doesn't run this site. I can't PROVE it to you - unless I suppose you want to come to my house and meet me.'

you think it's a 'BIG ASSUMPTION on your (my) part' to think you're running the site from your place? as you said? ('About this being 'my site' - absolutely not true, and, if I might point this out, this was a BIG assumption on your part from what I said')

Sorry but that earlier post read to me like you were saying that THIS FORUM is run from your house....as i think anyone who didn't know you or anyone else from adam would....

the fact that you percieve me as wanting to argue with you pointlessly, makes me not look forward to hearing from you....

i think what i LOVE about 'the RECORD' here, is the way you can't change it. it pretty much speaks for itself....(if it's 'WORTH' wasting time on that is).............you know?

no hard feelings-don't feel you have to respond etc....

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Date: Wed, May 24, 2000 at 15:12:09 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: physical location does not equal ownership
Message:
Well, we DO run the software from our house - via our server - and we are the persons on record for the domain name, etc. That does not make the site OURS, though, and that appeared to me to be the assumption you were making.

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Date: Wed, May 24, 2000 at 15:20:32 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Raina
Subject: And also Raina...
Message:
First you get on my case for giving too MUCH information, and then (as above) for giving too little. Actually this discussion is beginning to remind me of some I've had with Jim Heller :). I don't feel that I can (or have time to) clarify myself further, so maybe we should just stay away from each other.
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Date: Wed, May 24, 2000 at 14:22:26 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Never Explain Never Complain....
Message:
it seems to me-that it seem to you(!) that i just get sarcastic for no reason....

you wrote this to me just now:
(katie)
'What I was TRYING to say is that if you met me, or Brian, or Jim Heller, or JW, or Jean-Michel, or SB, or whoever, you'd see that we weren't Maharaji (you did say that M could possibly be running this site.)'

OK....so.....instead of blowing this joint....my reaction is to make fun of the person who is SO subtly condescending to me...as in, do you REALLY think i am THAT mentally warped that i think Jim is M? or SB is M? or you are M? How do you know I'm not a double-agent!!! None of us can really know in matters of such DEEP heart!!!

i don't mind criticism, but when it's HIDING behind 'politesse' i can't resist trying to point that repression or hypocrisy out (especially when it's looking down it's nose)....and that's what gets me into trouble perhaps....

i never assume the strangers i'm talking to are beneath my intelligence 'level'. Quite the opposite actually. I get myself into more trouble by giving the STUPIDEST people on the face of the earth a GORGEOUS pearl.....WORTH thinking about (see that was a dig at Denasaur)-you have to admit that although she seemed so polite...one has to wonder what her REAL motivation was to make some sidewaze jab at me!

as if my post to david was SO private i'd need to email personally! i can't believe i actually gave one person here my email-i learned my lesson...no one is EVER what they seem....but believe it or not as screwy and mean as i might seem to you? i'm kinder than the lot of you put togther (excpet for Robyn maybe?)....an exxaggeration 2 make a point s'all.....

do you know i got fired from my last job for saying 'Eat ME' under my breath!!!!

Jesus's last words.....

i would never wish that you didn't post to me-maybe just telling yourself first that i might already KNOW what u r saying? i prefer the idea of making discoveries about things we may not know together...rather than tell people what my version of right and wrong is.....

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Date: Wed, May 24, 2000 at 14:52:45 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: Raina redux
Message:
Raina -
I don't know how to tell you that I am NOT 'talking down' to you. You may perceive it that way - in that I am telling you things that you already know - but how the hell am I supposed to know that you already know these things?!

As far as:
do you REALLY think i am THAT mentally warped that i think Jim is M? or SB is M? or you are M?

You'd be surprised WHO some of the people on this site have thought were M, and how afraid some people have been to post on the forum because of being ID'd by M. That is why I took your question seriously, and I do NOT think you are 'mentally warped'!

And you wrote:
i don't mind criticism, but when it's HIDING behind politesse' i can't resist trying to point that repression or hypocrisy out (especially when it's looking down it's nose)....and that's what gets me into trouble perhaps....

I assume you're talking about me here. Well, *I* think YOU are making assumptions here. You don't like my writing style, so you apparently read stuff into it. Can't you just take what I say at face value?

i never assume the strangers i'm talking to are beneath my intelligence 'level'. Quite the opposite actually. I get myself into more trouble by giving the STUPIDEST people on the face of the earth a GORGEOUS pearl.....WORTH thinking about (see that was a dig at Denasaur)-you have to admit that although she seemed so polite...one has to wonder what her REAL motivation was to make some sidewaze jab at me!

Well, as I said, sometimes your posts are hard to understand. I do get most of what you are saying about making assumptions about people based on what they write - in other words, leaps of faulty logic, but IMO you do exactly the same thing. I'm of the opinion that you read things into my posts that are not there - like condenscension, my opinion of your intelligence (which is very high, by the way), and my attitude towards life. You don't really know any of these things, but you react as if they were true.

You wrote:
as if my post to david was SO private i'd need to email personally! i can't believe i actually gave one person here my email-i learned my lesson...no one is EVER what they seem....but believe it or not as screwy and mean as i might seem to you? i'm
kinder than the lot of you put togther (excpet for Robyn maybe?)....

I didn't SAY to e-mail David. You got on my case for answering your post to him, and my suggestion was - that if you wanted a private answer, say so IN your post.

Raina, if you are a kind person, I'd like to know it. It really does not come across in most of your posts. In fact you come across as quite reactive, VERY sensitive, and generally angry. [You don't have to tell me how I come across in my posts - I've heard it from Jim Heller enough times (joke - but not a very funny one.)]

do you know i got fired from my last job for saying 'Eat ME' under my breath!!!!

Jesus's last words.....

I got this one! Very funny, especially with the Alice connotations.

i would never wish that you didn't post to me-maybe just telling yourself first that i might already KNOW what u r saying? i prefer the idea of making discoveries about things we may not know together...rather than tell people what my version of right and wrong is.....

Well, of course I realize that you might already KNOW what I am saying, except how can I know what of what I am saying that you don't know? That's the problem, for me.

Look, I write and edit scientific papers and part of that process (which has RUINED my writing style, BTW) is re-capitulating things from the beginning, and re-writing the same things over and over so that there don't seem to be leaps of logic in the text. Thus my writing tends to be linear, explanatory, and expository rather than intuitive and (dare I say) poetic. I hope you can realize that I just DO write that way, that it's not a personal slap at you, AND that it doesn't mean that I think you're less intelligent than I am. (All of which are assumptions based on my writing style, BTW - not on WHO I am.)

I need to get some writing lessons from Selene! (I'm her sometimes editor, but it's just not the same!)

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Date: Wed, May 24, 2000 at 23:13:11 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: please ignore my whaling to cq ok?
Message:
my head is swimming right now-tiring day and all that-
the irony of perfectly nice intelligent people have such difficulty
trying to speak to each other is maddening....

you are SO not hateable!

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Date: Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 01:15:30 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: Ok, but...
Message:
Actually, I thought your post to cq was pretty good. You said a lot. And you're right that perfectly nice people have an awful time trying to speak to each other on this forum. I have found it much easier to communicate with the people here in person - I rely a lot on interpretation body language/cues, etc. (one of the bonus perks of growing up with alcoholic parents!).

Also, Raina, you CAN really write, and I hope you keep at it - if you want to. I was happy when Rob started a forum on which people could just write, but I don't know if he's gonna keep up with it. A lot of people here can and NEED to write - including me. I just wish I was better at it sometimes.

BTW, I hope you get the Keith Haring picture back. (Off the subject, I think he is related to me - my last name is Haering, which was - in Germany - Haring with an umlaut over the a. Some of my relatives changed it, and some did not.) That story sucks. At least the picture is identifiable enough so that you'll be able to trace it if it goes up for auction somewhere - and, yes, I am sure that it's worth WAY more than $3000 now.

Anyway, glad you think I am not hateable (although many do not!). Selene and I have managed to become friends and stay friends for years even though we are very different - here's hoping.

Katie
(also a HUGE fan of Concrete Blonde - Johnette Napolitano rules!)

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Date: Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 01:23:51 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Raina
Subject: PS Raina
Message:
Also, I am posting a lot today because I'm on line waiting for the axe to fall, and for certain e-mails. Not that it would be such a big deal, but it makes me nervous because it's SO impending (or even more nervous than usual, which is pretty nervous.).
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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 21:16:01 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: what would it take to satisfy you?
Message:
I'd like to see him getting so full of rage about this site that this patently bogus 'cool' veneer he employs is blown,

and I'd like to see him have to work for once in his life, under someone else,

that would be very amusing

Re of course it could be that after all he is the king of kings, lord of lords and master of, but what's the probability of that being the case, as against the dalai lama say. There is no way of PROVING anything like that, nothing is fixed in some holy ground, on some level everything is a fiction, just hopefully a fiction grounded in pragmatism, or else disaster.

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 23:56:49 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: what did he do 2 u?
Message:
and how do you define 'work'?

do you mean he should try doing some of the jobs you've had?

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Date: Wed, May 24, 2000 at 18:15:58 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: Cor blimey guv, strike a light, you into s and m?
Message:
No re work. I followed gm rather too closely in my lifestyle. Didn't work for nigh on twenty years.
Working again has been illuminating, for similar reasons I think it would be even more illuminating for him.

Actually he did nothing to me, apart from not believing in the power of knowledge as much as me, and that's no longer an issue. I was very detached about him most of the way.

My arguments with him are because he didn't even remotely get close to doing what he said he was going to do, and has made it abundantly clear that he's not too worried how many people get this opportunity. In other words he's a fraud.

Secondly he constantly lies about his past & present and tries to cover it up.

Thirdly he's a leader, and I've had it with all leaders.

Fourthly he's a religious leader, and I've had it with them too, especially when they protect paedophiles.

His treatment of the ashram premies was nothing short of appalling, not as appalling as it would have been if he'd murdered them, but still appalling.

All the suicides and mental illness caused by people either feeling unworthy, or twisting their heads in knots, directly attributable to his very confusing 'message'.

Seventhly, nothing like seeing an arrogant man humbled, sport even if you will, specially someone who thinks they're untouchable. That's why perversely I love all this legal stuff that's happening, shows he's been bitten, and is freaking.

I can do more if you want, but since you've probably only keyword scammed six words, and are a bit anti-social in your communication.........By the way, you not reading posts, responding superficially, moaning when others don't read yours, however flippantly, smells a bit like a power issue to me, and I like it straight, well communication on the net anyway.

Surely if somethings worth doing, it's worth doing properly, otherwise what's the point, but then I'm probably older than you, and time is more precious....

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 22:26:21 (GMT)
From: Poor, Poor EV
Email: None
To: David
Subject: Censorship
Message:

Elan Vital, Inc.
PO Box 6130
Malibu, CA 90264-6130















Program / Activities


Information currently not available in database





















Financial Info
Assets: $ 0
Income $ 0
This organization is not required to file an annual return with the IRS because it is a church.












 
EIN: 23-7174539
Ruling Year: 1971

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 21:46:49 (GMT)
From: GAC
Email: None
To: David
Subject: Censorship
Message:
Why not just e-mail Milbank of the dweebs they are being puppeteered by?

Milbank!

Yeah right... rawat claims copyright violation.... hello... rawat... you've never once come up with anything original.

Well.... actually.... your PAMS are good at making up stories to get money & estates out of people...... you are such a pathetic, little man.

Here ya go JW:

Digital Millenium Copyright Act!

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 23:46:24 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: GAC
Subject: Thanks Fair Use and Filed Copyrights
Message:
Thanks for supplying a copy of the Act. I note the following:

Section 1201 provides that copying of a copyrighted work, and making a device (like a website) that distributes copied materials is not prohibited per se, because, in Section 1201,

This distinction was employed to assure that the public will have the continued ability to make fair use of copyrighted works, since copying of a work may be a fair use under appropriate circumstances (educational, criticism, etc.)

I agree with what was said above. I think Yahoo/Geocities, which provide free sites, just want to avoid the hassle of people complaining, so they just drop sites when someone complains. It is funny though, and if it were my site, I would complain to Yahoo, and also publicize that Prem Pal Singh Rawat, personally, moved to shut down free speech, using high-priced New York law firms, because he doesn't like what was being said about him. What a slimeball.

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 21:19:01 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: David
Subject: Go to the Press!!!!!
Message:
I would go to the press with it. This is outrageous that the filthy rich, playboy guru is so paranoid that he sicks Milbank (which is one of the largest law firms in the USA) on you for daring to criticize him. What is amazing to me, is that Prem Pal Singh Rawat, specifically, Mr. former lord of the universe himself, is the one complaining to geocities.

I would also talk to a lawyer. What did you have on the site that could be 'copyrighted?' Did you reprint entire publications, or what?

I also think that Prem Pal Singh Rawat is being advised to attack the ex-premies outside the USA, based on also what happened to JM in France.

Can you obtain a copy of the 'Digital Millennium Copyright Act?' I could try to get someone to review it for you and tell you your rights. I've left my email.

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 21:17:39 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: David
Subject: idea
Message:
Why don't you take out anything that is copywrited like photos and put removed by legal action of Elan Vital who do not want you to see it where it used to be. And then put the site back up where it was. Very little of the site falls within the copywrite issue.

Trying to keep the information secret makes them look worse.

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 12:15:42 (GMT)
From: Happy
Email: happyheretic@hotmail.com
To: David
Subject: ideas
Message:
David,
Both JW and Susan are making good points. Good luck!
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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 11:56:06 (GMT)
From: wanna be activist
Email: None
To: ALL EXES
Subject: Another idea
Message:
Why doesn't everybody reading this write M a letter. Tell him what you really think and email it to him on his site. E-mail it every time you sign on. E-mail it before you come to the forum, E-mail after you leave the forum.
That would be a shit load of E-mail.

Take the same letter and mail it to the Malibu Mansion. Mail the same letter everyday......Hell mail it a couple times a day. Make the post office rich.

Give Visions a call today and tell them you want to order LOTU. Ask them where you can get it. Call on lunch break, smoke break, coffee break, pee break. That would be a shit load of phone calls.

!!!!!!!!!!MAKE SOME NOISE!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!MAKE A LOT OF NOISE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There must be at LEAST 25 people reading this.

Go to your local program and leave some anti-propaganda around the entrance, posted on a tree, on car windshields, in the bathrooms.

Contact the press, until soomeone will listen. Local or national it's all good. If information comes from several people, some journelist, somewhere, will listen.

OK, feedback??????????

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 21:37:36 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Both good ideas (and hi, Dave!)
Message:
Dave,

How've you been? Well, I trust.

I think both Susan and Joe's ideas are good. You mihgt also want to talk with Yahoo and let them know what's really going on. I'm not thinking for a moment that they'd risk litigation on your behalf for this or any cause. Rather, if they understood how disreputable Maharaji is to begin with they just might be more inclined to put him and his representatives to more of a test vis a vis exactly what copywritten materials are being exploited and how, if at all, they aren't merely being used lawfully (i.e. under one of the various 'fair use' rubrics).

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 20:58:03 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: David
Subject: Censorship
Message:
Dear David,
Isn't this interesting! It strikes me that this is all starting up coinciding with his 'US tour'. Maybe he is trying to pull out the big guns, trying to stop the negative info getting out, better late then never?, while trying to increase the devotion and donations! Jerk. If the info isn't true then they could prove it and discredit these sites, yours and JM's. This reaction seems very much like the Wizard of Oz, caught behind the curtain and making a last ditch effort to save his ass. Yuck!
Good luck Dave.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 22:25:14 (GMT)
From: blood
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Interesting Indeed, never know who is reading this
Message:
Congratulations David, you have caused, at least, a legal retainer to be extracted from M's deep coffers.

Since Yahoo offers free websites it probably doesn't serve their interests to spend time trying to resolve copyright questions nor becoming involved in copyright battles.

Even if every reader here sent an email to who ever sent you the notice from Yahoo it seems unlikely that it could be turned around. As free wheeling as we would all like to think they are, their corporate bottom line in money, not truth.

Your recent use of M's front page was a pretty strong invitation to get some kind of a response.

At least this action makes it obvious that posts are being read by the other camp. Now, how can that information be used wisely?

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 23:43:32 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: blood
Subject: This is a different David
Message:
I believe the David who used M's front page was Sir David. This David is from years ago. He started one of the previous versions of this site.
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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 00:32:01 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: This is a different David
Message:
Oh, I wondered if it was Sir but knew he had a Geocities site so thought it was Sir. Thanks.
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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 23:48:31 (GMT)
From: blood
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: thanks....hard to keep track of everyone (nt)
Message:
nt
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