Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Mon, May 29, 2000 at 21:15:42 (GMT)
From: May 19, 2000 To: May 27, 2000 Page: 4 Of: 5


Paul -:- Here's a quote for those who did not time to check -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 20:06:49 (GMT)
__ bb -:- Here's a quote for those who did not time to check -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 03:58:05 (GMT)
__ hamzen -:- All is one........(nt) -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 22:06:40 (GMT)

Rated-X -:- Recognizing the master -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 14:26:15 (GMT)
__ Angry -:- Recognizing the master/The Skunk's contradiction -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 14:42:02 (GMT)

William -:- Leaving It All Behind -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 11:45:26 (GMT)
__ cq -:- It ain't over til it's over - so keep posting -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 19:34:12 (GMT)
__ Happy -:- Leaving It All Behind -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 12:12:44 (GMT)
__ __ William -:- Thank you Happy -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 17:04:13 (GMT)
__ bb -:- Leaving It All Behind -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 04:01:38 (GMT)
__ __ William -:- BB -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 16:52:45 (GMT)
__ Daneane -:- That line... -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 23:56:00 (GMT)
__ __ William -:- That line... -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 16:51:15 (GMT)
__ Robyn -:- Leaving It All Behind -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 15:47:34 (GMT)
__ __ William -:- Thank you Robyn -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 16:22:52 (GMT)
__ Anon -:- Leaving It All Behind -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 14:52:18 (GMT)
__ __ William -:- Than you Anon -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 16:33:02 (GMT)
__ __ wife of william -:- Leaving It All Behind -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 08:00:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ bb -:- Leaving It All Behind -:- Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 02:43:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ Robyn -:- Leaving It All Behind -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 10:55:43 (GMT)
__ __ Susan -:- hi anon -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 15:00:54 (GMT)
__ Susan the ex premie -:- Leaving It All Behind -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 14:08:22 (GMT)
__ __ William -:- Thank you Susan -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 16:48:59 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Leaving It All Behind -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 12:16:23 (GMT)
__ __ William -:- Leaving It All Behind -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 16:12:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ William -:- AJW -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 17:11:37 (GMT)
__ __ raina -:- What makes some journies more interesting than -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 06:01:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Hey, Anth, you have to admit it -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 06:19:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Hey, Anth, you have to admit it -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 08:05:25 (GMT)
__ __ Robyn -:- Parisian spiders (ot) -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 20:34:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ Anth -:- Parisian spiders (ot) -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 11:00:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Parisian spiders (ot) -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 08:07:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ raina -:- Parisian spiders (ot) -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 06:08:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Parisian spiders (ot) -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 10:57:39 (GMT)

Coach -:- Dinosaurs Unearthed - Shock Horror Probe -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 19:52:36 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- wonder how they'll market Daya -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 20:00:48 (GMT)
__ __ Coach -:- Big In Wonga Wonga -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 20:14:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- how crass of me -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 20:32:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ bb -:- the song is old. -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 00:39:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Coach -:- At The Feet Of Disaster -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 05:59:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Mahatma Gandi -:- At The Feet Of Disaster -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 12:15:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Angry -:- 'Other borrowed songs' -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 13:40:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- yes this song is very old -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 00:55:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ bb -:- yes at the feet of disaster -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 04:17:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- ha see what you get? -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 04:21:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ bb -:- ha see what you get? -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 04:37:29 (GMT)

Daneane -:- NRA on Mom March(ot) -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 14:07:45 (GMT)
__ JW -:- Michael Moore/Jay Martel/The Awful Truth -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 17:17:50 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- The fuse was just there, so I lit a match... -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 02:48:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ Powerman -:- The fuse was just there, so I lit a match... -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 05:17:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- The fuse was just there, so I lit a match... -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 05:53:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- The fuse was just there, so I lit a match... -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 03:45:28 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- safe to quote and not take a stand -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 17:25:55 (GMT)
__ __ Daneane -:- safe to quote and not take a stand(ot) -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 23:52:06 (GMT)
__ __ Monmot -:- safe to quote and not take a stand -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 18:09:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- safe to quote and not take a stand -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 01:06:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Monmot -:- safe to quote and not take a stand -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 02:01:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- Oh to hell with it - I WILL take a stand...! -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 19:21:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Helen -:- Oh to hell with it - I WILL take a stand...! -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 02:09:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Praise the ammunition and pass the Lord. -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 01:27:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Powerman -:- Oh to hell with it - I WILL take a stand...! -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 20:28:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Oh to hell with it - I WILL take a stand...! -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 18:28:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Oh to hell with it - I WILL take a stand...! -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 11:28:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Powerman -:- Oh to hell with it - I WILL take a stand...! -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 19:46:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Oh to hell with it - I WILL take a stand...! -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 20:41:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Oh to hell with it - I WILL take a stand...! -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 11:57:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ JW -:- The myth of the second amendment -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 17:08:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- The myth of the second amendment -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 03:19:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Powerman -:- The myth of the second amendment -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 17:33:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- The myth of the second amendment -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 18:33:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Sorry, s/b, what has NOW become the national guard -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 18:42:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ G -:- Yes, more gun control is needed -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 22:50:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Right on, brother G force -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 02:11:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- and don't you guys legalize a lot of drugs? -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 19:26:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ ham -:- The Police and Police Federation want to lower -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 21:28:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- more *reported* drug use perhaps? -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 21:41:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- Raves/house stuff in Tucson and Arizona -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 23:05:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- thanks please send! i think I went though -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 00:32:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- thanks please send! i think I went though -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 02:52:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- exactly hamzen -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 03:01:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- Ironic or what, modern music goes deeperthan guru -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 03:20:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- where? I may do that -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 03:25:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- yeah, england, dorset/hampshire border (nt) -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 03:31:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- There's a Burning Man Fest near Las Vegas nt -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 03:43:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- FYI: Official site is www.burningman.com nt -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 04:01:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- thanks -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 04:04:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Not a Bad Idea :-)) It Gets Nuts There -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 04:10:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- my son worked Woodstock last year -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 04:15:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- I Hope He Got Some Good Stuff nt -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 04:38:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- he wanted nothing to do with it. -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 04:42:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Cash is hell of a lot easier to carry anyway nt -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 05:01:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- definitely makes for better friends on the plane -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 05:03:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- LOL--Ain't It The Truth -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 05:15:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- Maybe alive, not much energy for kicking, -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 23:00:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene! -:- oh man that is some image images i mean -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 00:00:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- that's exactly what I am afraid of Monmot -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 18:41:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- and since we're sharing our fears -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 01:46:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ selene -:- oh and that was a joke but.. I doubt it went over -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 02:15:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- good luck Scott -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 02:09:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- My hard drive partition, do you mean? -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 03:48:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Oliver -:- Aussie Crime -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 06:09:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- yeah and *my* joke got out of sync too -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 05:36:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- yeah and *my* joke got out of sync too -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 11:48:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- and since we're sharing our fears -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 02:08:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Monmot -:- that's exactly what I am afraid of Monmot -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 18:55:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- that's exactly what I am afraid of Monmot -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 04:03:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ raina -:- does he play with himself a lot -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 21:10:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- does he play with himself a lot -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 02:10:55 (GMT)

Nigel -:- Friends of Charles Darwin - We've won!! (ot) -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 10:45:28 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- John McEnroe on Ten Pound Note -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 14:51:33 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- You can do Frankie Howerd with a fiver... -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 21:34:00 (GMT)
__ Dave -:- Just one thing -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 16:15:42 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- slash-backslash-slash -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 13:54:49 (GMT)
__ __ bb -:- Just two -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 00:04:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ raina -:- (ot) -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 15:06:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- Charles Darwin was a theist in some ways -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 01:16:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- Gods from space -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 01:32:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ G -:- I see, it's all clear now, but -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 02:06:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Holland's Opus -:- Wed, May 24, 2000 at 16:07:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Mili -:- It's all science, folks! -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 07:26:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ bb -:- Thanks for the link Mili. -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 04:32:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ bb -:- JM and Way -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 00:21:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Don't worry, It's on its way -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 07:35:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ raina -:- JM and Way -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 03:40:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ bb -:- JM and Way -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 04:20:47 (GMT)


Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 20:06:49 (GMT)
From: Paul
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Here's a quote for those who did not time to check
Message:
out the adidam.org site of the avi da (formerly, da free John movement).

Quote for May 1999:

There is no Face within the sky. Nor is the 'thing' of sky the 'All' that Is. But I Am All the All Who Is. And non-objective 'Brightness' Is My only Face. and they see Me who forget themselves when My Name, Da, is heard to Flash across the Me-'Bright' Cloudless Sky of Consciousness itself.

Ruchira Avatar Adi Da Samraj
from The Basket Of Tolerance--forthcoming

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 03:58:05 (GMT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Paul
Subject: Here's a quote for those who did not time to check
Message:
bubu free john had a midlife crisis in about 84 and fell to earth temporarily. Like rawat, he grabbed hold of that stupid eastern misperception of life and failed in his attempt to come to face reality.

gopis appreciate a lord that wont let thier beliefs down. like Hamzen mentioned above, even the full monty wouldnt break the devotees stuck condition.

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 22:06:40 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Paul
Subject: All is one........(nt)
Message:
a
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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 14:26:15 (GMT)
From: Rated-X
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Recognizing the master
Message:
M would often say 'You recognize a true master by what he gives you'. Ok, he gave me meditation techniques that worked about 5% of the time and am being generous here.
Another quote 'Master gives, gives, gives, and the student receives, receives, receives, it's pretty much a one way deal'. I think it's quite the opposite, you give your time, trust and money to m, a one way deal in that direction. And if you get some experience from the meditation practice, it comes from inside, not from him.
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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 14:42:02 (GMT)
From: Angry
Email: None
To: Rated-X
Subject: Recognizing the master/The Skunk's contradiction
Message:
Yes, I remember hearing that. I also remember hearing him say something to the effect of (I paraphrase), 'The effort is only 1 or 2% by the Master, the rest is up to you'. One could spend a lot of there time just researching his many contradictions. active cult members would explain this away as the Master's perogative(sp?). I look at it as manipulative.
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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 11:45:26 (GMT)
From: William
Email: william@wpm.uk.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Leaving It All Behind
Message:
Hi, I have been lurking here on & off for the last few years, but I haven’t posted before. What’s prompted me to post now is that I have just had an almighty row with my wife because she stumbled across the address for the site when she was checking out which sites had been visited by our children. She assumed (wrongly) that I was once again getting involved with M and she obviously perceived this to be a major threat to our personal & family situation.

I have had no contact with anyone in M’s world for more than fifteen years and I don’t practice the techniques of meditation. Despite this, I find that I am still affected by my past involvement – insofar as I think about it now and again and wonder what life might have been like had I not gotten involved? I’m not sure if I could go so far as to say that I wish things had been different, as I certainly had some good times and seemingly wonderful experiences shared with some really fantastic people. Although I appreciate now that these experiences could have probably been reproduced in any “cult” environment.

It is difficult for my wife to understand why I have not completely abandoned any interest in M or his followers – be they current or exes. However, I find that this site can provide a useful and often entertaining way of coming to terms with the whole saga and it has certainly helped me to mentally distance myself from M and his world. So I shall continue to lurk and maybe even join in - as and when I fancy.

This incident has made me realise that I need to make a public statement - a bit like the first timers at an AA meeting – (or so I’m told).

HELLO - MY NAME IS WILLIAM AND I AM AN EX-PREMIE!!

For the avoidance of doubt – I shall say it again as I realise that it is important for people close to me to categorically know that I am definitely not a “lover” of M or his world. Furthermore, I don’t believe that any individual can offer me an exclusive path to happiness or salvation or whatever else I might be looking for.

There – that wasn’t so bad was it? (Gulp) What the hell – the vegetables have been rotting for the last fifteen years - they can’t get any smellier!

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 19:34:12 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: William
Subject: It ain't over til it's over - so keep posting
Message:
It ain't over til it's over - so keep posting

That way it'll be over sooner. Better out than in, no?

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 12:12:44 (GMT)
From: Happy
Email: happyheretic@hotmail.com
To: William
Subject: Leaving It All Behind
Message:
Nice to read your post, William. It's an important step you've made.
Although you've been out of the cult since 25 years, there are still scars that need healing. Hope your wife will be sympathetic to this. Hi, wife of William, let him lurk and post if he wants to. It's only good for your relation, in the long run. Trust me on this.
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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 17:04:13 (GMT)
From: William
Email: None
To: Happy
Subject: Thank you Happy
Message:
Your right - it is an important step. But it's crazy that it's taken this long to achieve. I think the problem is that I just drifted slowly away, rather than making a conscious decision to break away. Anyway, it's never too late!

Thanks again,

William

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 04:01:38 (GMT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: William
Subject: Leaving It All Behind
Message:
Hi there William, were you on the deja forum?
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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 16:52:45 (GMT)
From: William
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: BB
Message:
No, I wasn't on the deja forum. This is the first time that I have posted on line.

regards,

William

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 23:56:00 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: William
Subject: That line...
Message:
'Furthermore, I don’t believe that any individual can offer me an exclusive path to happiness or salvation or whatever else I might be looking for.'

I liked that very much.

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 16:51:15 (GMT)
From: William
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: That line...
Message:
Glad you liked it!

Thank-you

William

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 15:47:34 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: William
Subject: Leaving It All Behind
Message:
Dear William,
Happy 'coming out'. :)
I agree that this site can suck up to much time if you let it. I don't spend near as much time here as I use to but when I check in I see lots of converstaions I'd like to read and participate in but sometimes, often, I just can't. I miss that, so I can see both sides.
I am sure you've seen some of the 'rows' that go on here but there is a lot of good and interesting people here. Hope you and your wife can find a middle ground on this issue since it seems to be helpful for you to be a part of what happens here as a lurker or participante.
Thanks for introducing yourself and welcome.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 16:22:52 (GMT)
From: William
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Thank you Robyn
Message:
for responding to my post. Like you, I spent a lot of time on the site when I first discovered it. Now, I just check in now and again - usually when I'm on line at work and I just want to relax for a bit and think about something different.

The issue with my wife is not the amount of time I spend, it's more to do with the fact that I want to spend ANY time at all on the site.

Anyway, thanks again.

regards,

William

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 14:52:18 (GMT)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: William
Subject: Leaving It All Behind
Message:
My wife is not a premie and, evidently like your wife, doesn't really understand my compulsion to lurk on this site. It's obviously hard for 'nest building' wives to understand why their husbands need to address such intense issues from their past when they could be putting their attention into their present family.
Obviously feelings can run high on the matter. My wife and I have had some tension over this, though I hope it is resolved now.

My wife has just walked in so I am asking her for comment. Here's what she says:

'At the peak of my husband's involvement with the premie site, I was pregnant with my second child and suffering from high blood pressure, our first child being under 2 years old. At this stage in my life I could have done with some help and more rest which I did not get due to my husband's day and night activities on the premie site. I made it clear that I would appreciate that my husband reach 'closure' on the matter by the birth of our second child.'

Whoops! I think we still have some work to do.

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 16:33:02 (GMT)
From: William
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Than you Anon
Message:
for responding to my post.

I certainly don't feel that it would be helpful for me to ignore what is going on here at the moment. In the longer run however, I do hope that by being able to discuss this stuff, I can really get it out of my system and then consign it to the dustbin. It really is amazing that the whole experience can still have an effect on me. After all it was only ten years of my life!

kind regards,

William

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 08:00:23 (GMT)
From: wife of william
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Leaving It All Behind
Message:
I try to support my husband whenever possible. However, on this matter I feel 'closure' is the only way out. If you keep picking at a sore it never gets better.
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Date: Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 02:43:36 (GMT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: wife of william
Subject: Leaving It All Behind
Message:
This beats trolling the internet for sex sites!
Could this qualify as a hobby?
You know him best, you love him, I wish you both well.
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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 10:55:43 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: wife of william
Subject: Leaving It All Behind
Message:
Dear wife of William,
Hi, what you say is true but sometimes you have to open the wound and let it heal from the inside out. There have been lots of folks here that came and moved on. The thing is that in the process you find we are real people, not just words on a page and there are lots of good people here, I have met 13 of them now and need to meet at least one more really fast! The number 13 you know. :) So some of us come back for conversation and/or to support the purpose of this site which is to help people like William who thought they had forgotten until they see there is still some buried stuff to come out or to help premies get some info outside the cult line and also for people looking to get it. A few that I know of who were considering it found this site which ended it for them! :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 15:00:54 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: hi anon
Message:
I just read your wifes post. We really need to be aware, that this site is a BIG time sucker. I think it isn't just the cult thing, for me I think it is a form of internet addiction. I think for a lot of us it is.

We surely do not want to hurt those we love with this. It just is not that important.

And if we do, we are letting our involvement with the guru hurt even more people we love. And this time we have NO one to blame but ourselves.

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 14:08:22 (GMT)
From: Susan the ex premie
Email: None
To: William the ex premie
Subject: Leaving It All Behind
Message:
Hi William. I just want to say hello. I know about the concern family members can have when you become involved with the ex site after many years of not even thinking about the cult. I think it is natural. Was your wife in the picture when you were a premie?

We ex's were not the only ones affected by this cult. Our families were very impacted, obviously, as well. I am sure that many parents had feelings of grief over the lost potential of thier sons and daughters, and questioned whether if they had been better parents perhaps their children would not be sucked in. ( I have seen the children of utterly delightful parents be sucked in, I do not buy it, but guilt is part of parenting). Spouses, obviously, are hard hit, as they suffered, from at least when I was a member, from Rawat's jealous love. In that no other relationship was supposed to approach the importance of a devotees with master. Children, suffered the worst, when premies followed Rawat from place to place and children were made to tag along on the bizarre journey. Also, if the premie were to feel his love for his or her kids was a threat to Rawat, that happened, what an huge betrayal. I have said before though, the premies I knew who bought into the kids coming second were the minority, in most cases parental love won over the cult.

Anyway, after that little sertmon, welcome! I enjoy conversing with this group who shares a common history. When I got together in SF with a bunch of ex's I found the group delightful. My opinion is ex's tend to be very nice, very caring, insightful people. Just the sort of friends it is nice to have in our lives.

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 16:48:59 (GMT)
From: William
Email: None
To: Susan the ex premie
Subject: Thank you Susan
Message:
for responding to my post.

When I met my wife in 1980, I had only recently left the ashram (which was a big deal for me) and re-entered the 'world'. She was open minded enough to attend a few satsang meetings and ashram premies used to visit us - presumably to keep an eye on me to make sure that I wasn't too spaced out. She was happy enough to allow premies to doss at our place when there were any programs in the area etc. She did not 'progress' to receive knowledge and I think she found the Indian bit (Arti etc.) very off-putting - thank God!

I suspect that she must have sensed that I was drifting away from the whole scene and was happy to bide her time. She has told me since that my family saw her as my salvation - that she wrested me away from the Guru Cult and brought me back down to earth!

Now that I think about it, it is very strange that the subject is never mentioned by my family members. I am glad, because I am so embarrased, almost ashamed of my involvement.

Once again, thank-you

regards,

William

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 12:16:23 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: William
Subject: Leaving It All Behind
Message:
Hi William,

Welcome to the crazy world of recovering cult members.

Some of what you said in your post rang true with me: not wanting to deny that you'd had any good times, wondering how life would have turned out if you hadn't got involved.

You said it's 15 years since you had any contact with the cult- so you must have built a 'cult-free' existence for yourself. I think how you react when you get out depends on how long and deep you were involved.

Have you thought about writing your story and posting it on the 'Journies' section of Ex-premie.org.

Writing my own 'Journey' was extremely therapeutic for me- as has been contributing to the Forum.

All the best,

Anth the Ex

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 16:12:59 (GMT)
From: William
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Leaving It All Behind
Message:
Thanks Anth,

Believe it or not, there is a document lurking on my computer entitled 'My Journey' but I haven't got very far with it. I do intend to finish it sooner rather than later as I'm sure that it will be theraputic.

I do remember you from the period 1975 to 1980 when I lived in various ashrams in London (apart from a wonderfully hedonistic six months spent in Banbury in that glorious hot summer of '76.)

regards,

William

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 17:11:37 (GMT)
From: William
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: AJW
Message:
I wanted to thank everybody individually and the first one was you. I then realised, that for you to know that a post is for you, I have to put your name in the Subject box. Therefore, please read the post entitled 'leaving it all behind' which has inserted itself after your post.

regards,

William

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 06:01:39 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: What makes some journies more interesting than
Message:
others for people do you wonder?

When they used to ask people to 'speak' at meetings-
they always seemed to look for people as if auditioning
for soap commercials, non-descript, one-size-fits all type people.

just thinking out loud while i happen to be here.

you sound like a Concierge at a ski resort!
Over here we have the Bunny Hill....

But you are SO charming! for real.

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 06:19:07 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: Hey, Anth, you have to admit it
Message:
you sound like a Concierge at a ski resort!
Over here we have the Bunny Hill....

This crazy chick is funny sometimes.

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 08:05:25 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jim and Raina
Subject: Hey, Anth, you have to admit it
Message:
It's part and parcel of being British Jim and Raina.

We're taught to be polite at all times (even if we don't mean it).

Anth your humble servant

(the bastards, how dare they insult me in public like this)

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 20:34:42 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Parisian spiders (ot)
Message:
Dear Anth,
Got your package today! :) So sweet of you, really. The postage was probably more then the contents!
Well as I was unwrapping it, inside I found a tiny spider! I was in my car by the mail box with the door open so set him free, so like JM, another Parisian graces my country home. :) Maybe it will teach the other spiders French!
Thanks again.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 11:00:30 (GMT)
From: Anth
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Parisian spiders (ot)
Message:
Dear Anth,
What do I care, I am not a spider and definitely not a male! :) They'll go happy anyway, a little French romance, ahhhh, what a way to go! :)
Love,
Robyn, oh where is my ricola, I have so many kinds now! :)
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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 08:07:25 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Parisian spiders (ot)
Message:
Watch out Robyn, it might screw the American males, then eat them.

Aracnanth

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 06:08:15 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Parisian spiders (ot)
Message:
i wish someone read this post to me as i was tucking myself in!
such a sweet little ditty......in just a few sentences i felt like i read
a whole saga! gorgeous!
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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 10:57:39 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: Parisian spiders (ot)
Message:
Well thanks Raina! :)
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Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 19:52:36 (GMT)
From: Coach
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Dinosaurs Unearthed - Shock Horror Probe
Message:
Dear Country Fans,

So I take a look at this 'Eversound' site. Music an' all. Hello, what's this? A button with 'new artists' on it. Click. Whaddya get? Geoff Bridgeford and Kim O'Leary. Jesus, NEW!!?? They came in with Noah on the fuckin' ark. It's so funny that the ONLY music that is vetted for release by Elan Vital is instrumental. No words. Don't want anybody steppin' out of line and singin' something off the top of their head, do we? An' the only songs are by Geoff and Kim. Two wonderful human beings, I'm sure, but c'mon. The bios on them says it all. The writer was REALLY struggling here to find anything to say.

'Kim O'Leary ('It's a Real Love') has followed in the footsteps of her parents, two of Australia's most successful singers. After gaining recognition in Australia, Kim went on to sign with Motown Records as a solo artist, and had her song 'Put the Pieces Back'go #30 on the Billboard Adult Contemporary Charts. Jay Lasker, former president of Motown Records, once hailed her as 'the next Carole King.' Kim's unique voice and songwriting skills stand out on this new version of the song, her first release with EverSound.'

You know, the daughter of fabulously famous and successful Australian O'Leary singers. What were they called now, er, oh yes, Mr & Mrs O'Leary. Well, Mr Lasker sure got it right with his prediction of the second coming of Carole King. I can't imagine why he left Motown. 'Now look here, Lasker, this new Carole King of yours ain't movin' shit. Yer outta here.' Great first release on 'Eversound' though. 'It's A Real Love'. Very snappy title. Haven't heard it. Not going to either. Shudder!!

'Geoff Bridgford ('Malibu Rain') is a successful performer, songwriter, and producer in both his native Australia and on the international music scene. An early highlight of his career was as the drummer for the BeeGees, receiving two gold records for the singles 'Lonely Days' and 'How Can You Mend a Broken Heart.' As a singer/songwriter and guitarist, he has released two solo DCs and has performed extensively throughout Australia, Europe and the US.'

You know, that Geoff Bridgeford. The one clogging up the global airwaves an' wearing out all the stereos down in the Bronx. Big in Wonga Wonga, Western Austrlia in the sixties means fuck all round there. How many times have we heard this one, 'An early highlight of his career was as the drummer for the BeeGees..' Guys, it was his ONLY highlight. He was fired smartish. The bum's rush. Downhill rapido. And after 'Yer Lurv Is Like The Rain', 'The Downpoor of the Holy Drain' and 'Don't Rain On My Parade' (the X's anthem) we get 'Malibu Rain'. I wonder it's about. Malibu and rain, er, hmm. What next? 'It's Raining Men.' Well, they've tried everything else.

And they're actually sellin' this crap. EV's finances must be in a dread state. 'Er, I wonder what Kim and Geoff are up to. Wheel 'em out.'

yer rovin' reporter of dah Net,

Coach

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Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 20:00:48 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Coach
Subject: wonder how they'll market Daya
Message:
Jim once called her M's answer to Sade.
That was funny Coach. Why do you suppose all those other live performances weren't mentioned???????
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Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 20:14:49 (GMT)
From: Coach
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Big In Wonga Wonga
Message:
S,

Yes, never thought about that. I don't suppose they really counted as performances. Other than in 'Bloody hell, what a bleedin' performance.' As me ol' granpappy used to say.

Daya, BTW, will not be marketed. She is FAMILY. Bridgeford, O'Leary and suchlike are STAFF.

Coach

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Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 20:32:34 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Coach
Subject: how crass of me
Message:
Ain't got no class. Thank you. I forget now that I ain't got my guru to show me hows to act and all. sigh. Of course they wouldn't put family through such a thing.
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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 00:39:35 (GMT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: the song is old.
Message:
Hi Selene,
Enjoy the vacation?
Malibu Rain is a instrumental song from the -family of love- movie or the -power of love- movie. I believe it was the power of love movie which was a documentary of a tour in 1975 of Australia. Showed feet kissing and him driving around malibu with the instrumental song. I hardly think it should be attributed to jeef bridgford as the song is clearly the work of the guitarist Ross Hanaford.

By the way Coach, G bridgferd had some other unmentioned career highlights. He worshipped bhole ji as the incarnation of music and he wrote * At the feet of the master*.
A cult classic.

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 05:59:36 (GMT)
From: Coach
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: At The Feet Of Disaster
Message:
bb,

Guess there's not enough inspiration around to knock out a new one.

At The Feet Of The Master was a Krishnamurti rework.

Bhole Ji. What did he play? The tablas. Or was it the tables in Vegas.

Coach

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 12:15:21 (GMT)
From: Mahatma Gandi
Email: not given
To: Coach
Subject: At The Feet Of Disaster
Message:
That is exactly right, 'At the feet of the Master' was a poem written by Krishnamurti.It was set to music by some premie who evidently was not inspired enough to write his own lyrics. I wonder if Krishnamurti ever recieved credit or royalties.
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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 13:40:46 (GMT)
From: Angry
Email: None
To: Mahatma Gandi
Subject: 'Other borrowed songs'
Message:
Years after I joined the cult, I heard the original version of the song all us old-timers knew as, 'I got drunk and thrown in jail-Guru Maharaj Ji paid my bail. All my sins are taken awaaaaaaaay! '.

It was not woody Guthrie but someone from that time and genre.

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 00:55:41 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: bb but not bb?
Subject: yes this song is very old
Message:
Haven't taken that vacation yet but thanks for asking.

And thanks for the music lesson but did you forget? I am a
musician of sorts and have resources to many better as well.

You should direct further info to Coach methinks?

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 04:17:24 (GMT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: yes at the feet of disaster
Message:
That is funny.
I once went into a room and this guy was stareing at me so I looked at his eyes and since he was looking, so did I.
He finally turned away and complained that I didnt give him proper respect and I was told to leave. I turned out to be the lord of music himself.
I was an aspirant at the millenium and that is where it happened.
Little did bhole ji know that the guru maharaji himself was about to not show him proper respect and shun him for life!

It is what they all deserved.

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 04:21:46 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: ha see what you get?
Message:
recreating the whole experience again ...
I'm so weird. hi bb.
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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 04:37:29 (GMT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: ha see what you get?
Message:
Yeah but cool wierd Selene.
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Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 14:07:45 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: NRA on Mom March(ot)
Message:
'It wasn't a grass-roots rally but a
Gore campaign rally, scripted and
coached by the White House,' Wayne
LaPierre, the organization's executive
vice president, said of the march. 'It
wasn't about safety. It was about Gore
for president. But Mr. Gore, you're
going to find out it's not smart to lie
to mom.'

...Even as they claimed responsibility for
repeatedly knocking down gun-control
legislation in Washington, N.R.A.
officials told their members that the
Clinton-Gore administration had spent
the last seven years assaulting their
right to bear arms. And the officials
warned, often with an urgency that even
some N.R.A. members found hyperbolic,
that Mr. Gore would take steps toward
confiscating their weapons once elected.

'If it had not been for the vigilance of
millions of N.R.A. members these past
seven years, we would have seen the
total destruction of our rights,' said
James Baker, the group's chief lobbyist
in Washington. 'If Al Gore is elected,
it won't even take seven months.'

He added: 'For the next six months, Al
Gore is going to smear you as the enemy.
He will slander you as gun-toting,
knuckle-dragging, bloodthirsty maniacs
who stand in the way of a safer America.
Will you remain silent? I will not
remain silent. If we are going to stop
this, then it is vital to every
law-abiding gun owner in American to
register to vote and show up at the
polls on election day.'

Closing out the speeches, Mr. Heston
dramatically lifted a replica of a
Revolutionary War-era musket and then
paraphrased a popular N.R.A. bumper
sticker that reads, 'I'll give up my gun
when you take it from my cold, dead
hands.'

'As we set out this year to defeat the
divisive forces that would take freedom
away,' Mr. Heston said, 'I want to say
those words again for everyone within
the sound of my voice to hear and to
heed, and especially for you, Mr. Gore:
'From my cold, dead hands!' '

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 17:17:50 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: Michael Moore/Jay Martel/The Awful Truth
Message:
I don't know if you had a chance to watch Michael Moore's new show, The Awful Truth, on BRAVO. I taped it and watched it last night.

Jay Martel, who is the son of a guy I work with, did a segment on the NRA that was very funny. The NRA has come up with a cartoon and mascot (an eagle) aimed at kids, telling them if they find a gun, it's dangerous and not to touch it. The eagle goes around to schools, etc., and there is an animated cartoon. This is obviously a move by the NRA to counter-act the fact that thousands of children are killed in this country by firearms every year, including that little girl in Michigan who was shot by a 6 year old on the playground.

So, Jay set up a new mascot called 'Pistol Pete' which is a purple handgun who teaches kids to scream 'please don't kill me' and stuff like that. When Jay took Pete to the NRA building in Washington, the spokesperson said that guns were just 'a tool' and not dangerous, only people are dangerous. For the rest of the segment, Pete, danced around saying 'I'm just a tool.' It was funny, but at the end, on the screen was printed that in just the 10 weeks after that little girl was killed, 963 children were killed with guns in the USA, and that since the Columbine murders over a year ago, Congress has not passed even one gun control measure. Pretty sobering.

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 02:48:39 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: The fuse was just there, so I lit a match...
Message:
All:

In the cycling newsgroup recently someone posted a request for suggestions about a name for a new recumbent bicycle prototype. Innocent enough, right? One of the less creative suggestion was:

You could try bullet but the anti nra nazi's and politically
correct bunch will probably be upset.

To which Beth, the Jewish Alaskan troublemaker with a boyfriend and father who are cops replied:

Persons who believe in gun control are nazi's? Rather a
contradiction in terms, isn't it?

So Ron, seeing an opportunity to score one for Charlton regurgitates:

I pulled this out of the air somewhere's:

'Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945,
13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves
were rounded up and exterminated.'

Now I, with my usual air of rank condescension, reply:

Assuming your quotation isn't totally fabricated, as you imply it is, it's generally not considered methodologically appropriate to *assume* a causal relationship, without some justification. This is just a thought, but once a totalitarian regime comes to power isn't reduction of arms within the potential opposition a foregone conclusion? Didn't the Nazis come to power in a regime that *lacked* gun control? What did you expect; that they would pass out arms to the underground? Who is this great historian who linked gun control and the holocaust in a causal relationship? Why don't you cite him? You can't argue that gun control *causes* totalitarianism if it's the other way around. And, you also can't argue that there aren't other very good reasons for controlling weapons, unless you think we should all have nukes in our garages and biological weapons in our refrigerators. In short, favoring gun control doesn't make you a nazi any more than wearing a raincoat will cause it to rain.

Thus begins a flame war. I knew it would happen, but just couldn't help myself.

--
-Scott 'just getting tired of the crap' Talkington

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 05:17:15 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: The fuse was just there, so I lit a match...
Message:
Where is this cycling forum? It sounds interesting.
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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 05:53:18 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: The fuse was just there, so I lit a match...
Message:
Powerman:

I don't know if you'd find it interesting or not. 95% has to do with subjects too obscure even for most cyclists, such as folding recumbent bikes and the 'Virtual Edge' that's going to try to beat the Human Powered Vehicle hour record. One fellow has explained the difference between fast and slow twitch muscles. Apparently the dark muscle is slow twitch and the white muscle is fast twitch and then there's some that are slow fast twitch (but no fast slow twitch). Asleep yet?

BTW, Axel Merkxx fell yesterday in the Giro d' Italia and after being thrown completely off the road and down an embankment got back on the course and won his first major stage. His father is kind of famous in that sport.

The two subjects that generate the most white hot anger and invective: gun control and bicycle helmets. Apparently some people don't want to wear helmets, but carrying guns is OK. Reminds me of my cousin Bobby who liked to dive off the second landing on the grade school stairway onto his head. He loved the attention, even if he couldn't remember much of it.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 03:45:28 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: The fuse was just there, so I lit a match...
Message:
That is what you get for having bombs in your basement!!
Stop playing with those weapons :)
i'm feeling irreverent. Sorry.
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Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 17:25:55 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: safe to quote and not take a stand
Message:
but anyway:======
===============
last week a waiter sat down with us for a while and told us some horror stories about weirdos coming into the restaurant. It's located by what would be a river if we had any water. So, it's isolated somewhat. Later, as we were leaving the place I noticed a woman walking the 'river' path at dusk, alone. Told my friend 'look at her after the stories we just heard, she's fucking nuts.'
He said to me, 'she may be a black belt who knows'
I said 'what good is a black belt to a gun?'
................................................
Selene, close family member assaulted at gun point and pro NRA and pro right to bear arms.
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Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 23:52:06 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: safe to quote and not take a stand(ot)
Message:
I read that this morning in the New York Times and posted it in response to the post here about the Million Mom March. I thought it would be of interest.

I'm not too fond at all of the NRA. I don't know the explicit plan of Mom's against them...of they are for tighter control or complete banning.

I think guns are but a symptom of deeper cultural problems. I think we'd still find ways to kill each other even if they were all gone. I believe bombs are much more popular in the UK since they do not have as many guns around.

I own a 22 rifle, but I only shoot cans and targets. There are no kids in my house and it's always left empty with the chamber open and safety on. Bullets and rifle are no where near each other.

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Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 18:09:39 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: safe to quote and not take a stand
Message:
There's an old joke that a liberal is someone who's never been mugged. I've been held up at gunpoint (which, miraculously, I talked my way out of), and I've had an attempted rape at knifepoint, where I actually overpowered the guy (talk about an adrenaline rush, and I'm not black belt). I had my guardian angel working overtime for quite a while there.

I still am wary of guns, though, because I always feel that if I'm packing a rod, someone could just take it away from me and use it on me. Also, if a lot of people are packing, there's a tendency to resort to the gun as the first line of defense. I am for gun control, but like the Prohibition, it'd probably just push the market even more underground than it already is. Tough issue, for sure, though.

I've seen Charlton Heston up close and he's a bit senile. I think he's got some Puppetmaster who provides him with a script and he just assumes the position. Like Reagan, it's just another role to play, and probably a very well paid position at that.

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 01:06:58 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: safe to quote and not take a stand
Message:
Mon:

I was mugged one night on the way home from Larchmont Hall. Went back and told some premies about it who were still hanging out at the 'nightly meeting place.' People just shrugged or avoided comment. Great bunch of folks when the chips are down. I was tackled from behind football style. An accomplice was concealed nearby with a gun. If I'd had a gun then there'd be one more firearm in the hands of criminals. If I'd have pulled a gun I'd probably have been shot. As it was, I think they were a bit disappointed about the 15 cents I had in my pocket, but they did get my grandfather's Rolex. Not a good idea to wear a Rolex in public. That 15 cents must have really blown them away.

--Scott

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 02:01:34 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: safe to quote and not take a stand
Message:
Scott:
It's probably a good thing you had the Rolex, because they might've shot you for just having a paltry .15 on you. These criminals can get pretty righteous when you don't carry enough lucre. The Larchmont area is pretty spiffed up now, but all the mansions have bars on their windows, upper floors included, which really tips you off to how bad the crime must be. They must've thought you were Rolexus Man (my name for the rich dudes I see around town).
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Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 19:21:29 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Monmot
Subject: Oh to hell with it - I WILL take a stand...!
Message:
..at the risk of upsetting half the forum...

I find the US citizen's 'right' to bear arms perplexing and the argument that doing so makes the population safer a bit of a non-starter. Gun owners may feel safer, but I think that's about it. There would be virtually zero road deaths if cars were banned, but banning cars is not a viable option. Gun prohibition, on the other hand, is both possible and desirable (IMO). The NRA may feel deprived of a fundmental right, but better they be deprived of that right than so many innocent people be killed by licensed in addition to unlicensed weapons.

The British police are not only opposed to the public carrying weapons, but also to arming themselves - for the simple reason that a criminal with a gun is far more likely to use it if he thinks his own life depends on it. There are already firearms units that can be called in for dealing with special situations involving offenders known to be armed and who have used, or are likely to use their weapons - and the police are happy to keep it that way.

I think the comparative murder-by-firearm figures between the USA and western countries where gun-ownership is banned speak for themselves.

I know this issue has caused all sorts of long-running disputes on the forum before now, so having said my piece I think I'll just leave it there :-)

Nigel (the old leftie who has never been held up at gunpoint, and is very unlikely to ever be.)

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 02:09:47 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Oh to hell with it - I WILL take a stand...!
Message:
Thanks Nigel. I agree--we are the laughing stock around the world, such a great country as ours with such a huge murder rate, it's grotesque and the NRA is grotesque
Helen,
marched in the million mom march
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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 01:27:15 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Praise the ammunition and pass the Lord.
Message:
Nigel:

No real way to settle the question of whether carrying a firearm will make you more or less safe. The gun people argue that many foiled crimes go unreported because gunowners don't want to be hassled. We had a HUGE debate about this on the cycling forum. A woman from Anchorage, whose father and boyfriend were both policemen, said they had told her that in 45 years of combined service they knew of no instance in which a potential victim carrying a weapon had been able to foil a crime. Then again, this was Anchorage... not New York City.

The primary problem with gun confiscation, in Canada and Australia, is that it provide fantastic footage for the NRA to use to convince people that registration is just a prelude to confiscation. Personally, I think registration is far more important than elimination of weapons. Under these circumstances the only way to ever get registration is to make some sort of credible promise that confiscation wouldn't follow. I've attempted to argue that a politician who voted for confiscation would not be re-elected, but this is not sufficient assurance for many. Besides, widespread confiscation in the US would lead to a deeply rooted terrorist movement, be cause anyone inclined in that direction would feel totally justified in any sort of atrocity.

I don't hold out much hope for firearm registration, either in this century (still the twentieth) or the next (which starts this coming January). I hope I'm wrong, but what they've done recently in Oz has almost ruined our chances here.

--Scott

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Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 20:28:16 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Oh to hell with it - I WILL take a stand...!
Message:
I agree with you, Nigel (I'm a U.S. citizen). Guns are just bad news all the way around, and the worse thing is people who like guns.

Two problems with banning guns are that the U.S. is already saturated with guns, and the Second Amendment. Americans somehow connect their freedom with the right to own a gun, while these same people continue to vote for politicians who widdle away their freedom. I think these Americans are more interested in guns than freedom.

And the fact that there are millions of guns already in circulation presents a real problem in trying to ban them. The horse is already out of the barn.

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 18:28:46 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: Oh to hell with it - I WILL take a stand...!
Message:
I am against guns also but living in the country they do have a real and valid purpose, hunting. I remember having this discussion with students a year or so ago and one guy said taking gun safety classes and learning to hunt with his dad and grandfather was a great experience in his childhood. Guns are alien to me but I could see his point. Then there is the whole issue about hunting with respect rather then as a macho idiot as some around here do.
This part of it aside though what the hell do you need a gun for if you aren't going to hunt!? Target practice? Seems you could live without that in the name of the safety of the masses. I remember when I lived surrounded by state game lands and it sounded like a gun was being shot way to close to the house. I called the kids in and called the game warden who said they have to be 3 football field lengths away from any home! Sorry for you non American's but I don't know how far that is but it is a long way so...where the hell could you shoot that far from a house in a city or town and what the hell would you be shooting at! My point is the answer isn't anything that makes sense.
How can I write this and not think of Mike who I do respect even though we don't agree on lots of things. The problem is that there are too many people with guns with no respect for life.
In a college class I had we had to read the New York Times everyday of the week and I couldn't believe how many people were shot by bullets that went ary or by drive by shootings into a group in line for a movie or something.
I really liked what Nigel said about even the police in England, for the most part, not having guns. Seems like wanting a gun to defend yourself or your family wouldn't be such a real purpose if that was the case here. Like Powerman said we are already to deeply into this, the guns are already everywhere. In reference to lots of issues I'd like to say, 'Do over!'. Unfortunately that isn't an option.
Robyn
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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 11:28:54 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Oh to hell with it - I WILL take a stand...!
Message:
Robyn:

'Like Powerman said we are already to deeply into this, the guns are already everywhere. In reference to lots of issues I'd like to say, 'Do over!'. Unfortunately that isn't an option.'

Nothing much is really going to happen in the present climate of anti-authority sentiment. And nothing much will happen to change that sentiment unless we can re-establish the prominence of the family and the role it plays in establishing rule following behavior. If that happens then placing some restrictions on access to weapons will have more impact. Byback programs are having some success now in reducing the magnitude of the hemorrhage. It'll be a long process.

--Scott

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 19:46:36 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Oh to hell with it - I WILL take a stand...!
Message:
I don't think hunting is a real and valid purpose but I realize many people wouldn't agree. Obviously guns are here to stay so the best that will happen is damage control. As long as guns proliferate they will fall into the wrong hands and there will also be accidents.

Guns are also alien to me and I was brought up to believe that if you have a gun around there's more chance it will be used when it shouldn't be. No doubt that affects my beliefs now. If I'd been brought up with guns I might feel different.

The only time I ever fired a gun was at summer camp; it was a small gauge (22) rifle and we were shooting at tin cans. The only activity I've ever enjoyed less was surfing.

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 20:41:22 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: Oh to hell with it - I WILL take a stand...!
Message:
I don't think the issue is hunting rifles.

During the 80s and 90s, what REALLY proliferated was cheap handguns. Those are not used for hunting and are made only to kill people, not ducks or deer. There is also lots of evidence that the gun manufacturers knowingly exploited and inner city youth market for its handguns, which were made cheaply (also leading to more accidents) and actively marketed to young people.

I think people should be able to keep their hunting rifles, although they should be required to get licensed to own and use them, and be required to keep child-proof locks on them, when they aren't using them. I don't believe in hunting either, but I guess that is a matter of opinion, and at least I don't feel threatened by hunters.

I think handguns, assault weapons, and all automatic and semi-automatic weapons, should be banned, and those states that have enacted those ludicrous concealed weapon laws should should get a clue and drop them. I know there are already 250,000,000 guns out there, and I know there would be a black market, but you have to start somewhere -- there are just too many unnecessart deaths.

People should have to get a license (showing safety training) to own sporting guns.

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 11:57:56 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Oh to hell with it - I WILL take a stand...!
Message:
Joe, et al:

I think handguns, assault weapons, and all automatic and semi-automatic weapons, should be banned, and those states that have enacted those ludicrous concealed weapon laws should should get a clue and drop them. I know there are already 250,000,000 guns out there, and I know there would be a black market, but you have to start somewhere -- there are just too many unnecessart deaths.

People should have to get a license (showing safety training) to own sporting guns.

Simply having some rules that people are willing to follow will have some beneficial impact on behavior, beyond the reduction in arms. The idea that we have an authority that's unwilling to place restrictions on it's citizens is unhealthy and unsettling. They have game wardens who enforce hunting restrictions that, on their face, ought to be almost unenforceable. Oddly, perhaps placing restrictions on hunters (especially with scattershot weapons, which are damn near as devastating as automatic weapons) is the place to start.

--Scott

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 17:08:02 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: The myth of the second amendment
Message:
Powerman,

If Mike were around he would get real upset with me for saying this, but the second amendment to the constitution does not give a private right to bear arms. The NRA pushes this idea, but the courts, where they have decided this, have decided otherwise.

I think in 5 of the 9 circuits, the second amendment has been interpreted as either not applying to the states (in the 9th circuit for example), or that it applies only to the right for the states to have and arm the National Guard, relying on the 'well regulated militia' language in the amendment. U.S. v. Miller in the 30s is the only Supreme Court vaguely on point and that's what it held too, although not clearly enough.

That's why the NRA gives millions to politicians and lobbies legislatures all over the country. They know there isn't a consitutional protection for the right to bear arms. If there was, they wouldn't need Charlton Heston, just good lawyers, and enough lobbying to keep the constitution from being amended.

If there was an absolute right to bear arms in the constitution, then the many gun-control laws that have been passed both on the state and national levels would have been struck down.

Mike, if you are reading this, sorry to have to tell you this again.

JW

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 03:19:54 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: The myth of the second amendment
Message:
Joe:

I'm certainly not wanting to pick a fight over this, and don't know diddly about court rulings but, I mean, this language is *very* archaic:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

I don't know if this sentence structure was common at the time, but it sure seems strange now. I think I'd say that the intended meaning is to arm the citizenry against the possibility of a British invasion, but the wording is strange enough that I wonder why they didn't just say that plainly; something like:

In order to maintain a well regulated Militia, necessary to the security of a free State, the people shall be licensed to keep and bear Arms.

But, why the use of the term 'right?' I realize that all rights are conditional in a sense, but is this a right that expires when the need no longer exists? Is that the correct conception of a right? Think about the implicatons. Would progressives be all that comfortable with the establishment of such a concept in precedent? What other rights might expire when there's no longer a need to be filled? And what about people who are 'unneccessary?' Now, I realize that this is the only statement of rights that appears to be conditioned on a necessity, but we'd better be prepared to argue that this is, indeed' a very special case. You have to locate the firewall somewhere. Frankly, I think this may be a situaton where the founders got it wrong. They should not have expressed this as a right at all, and since they did it'll haunt us.


--Scott

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 17:33:55 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: The myth of the second amendment
Message:
Thanks for jogging my memory, JW. Isn't the wording of the title of the second amendment 'The Right to Bear Arms'? So despite the correct meaning of that, many people think they have that right (not a small factor). Doesn't that make it a sacred cow in terms of politicians ever making guns illegal? How many hundreds of thousands, or even millions, of Americans would never understand what a well-regulated militia means?
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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 18:33:39 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: The myth of the second amendment
Message:
The Second Amendment states: “A well-regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”

The NRA regularly leaves off the first part of the amendment, about the 'well-regulated Militia.' In fact, I am told that written in stone on the NRA building, is only the part beginning the 'the right.'

In U.S. v. Miller, the supreme court said that the second amendment only refers to arming what has not become the National Guard.

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 18:42:41 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Sorry, s/b, what has NOW become the national guard
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 22:50:04 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: Yes, more gun control is needed
Message:
I agree.

The NRA has continually fought against any kind of gun control in America and has repeatedly used hysterical rants to confuse people. Personally, I would like to see an outright ban, but that is very unlikely, and the NRA knows that. The gun control proposals in America are not about banning guns, but controlling their use and making them safer. Shame on the NRA and shame on Charlton Heston.

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 02:11:38 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Right on, brother G force
Message:
I would like to see an outright ban also, but I am willing to work towards anything that will reduce the amount of guns getting into people's hands.
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Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 19:26:20 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: and don't you guys legalize a lot of drugs?
Message:
And didn't the black market crime on drug trafficking go way down when you did? I read that on the net but it was years ago so I may be outdated on my info. And it may or may not relate.
Anway I too am going to stop debating this now because I have seen it go on and on and on and on, and... it's a nice day and I think I'll go join the other rednecks and shoot me up some cans or sum-en out in that ther desert... :) :)
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Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 21:28:05 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: The Police and Police Federation want to lower
Message:
the categories for maijawana, and ecstacy but it won't happen.

Government running scared, what a surprize.

This country has more drug use overall than any other western industrialized country, like powermans comment re guns, the cats out of the bag and run miles.

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Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 21:41:12 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: more *reported* drug use perhaps?
Message:
hi hammy. good to see you alive and kicking. Did I tell you I got the last tape and love it?
well if I lived there I'd be a registered working junkie no doubt. If that is possible. so what huh? :) :)
Instead I play here all Sunday afternoon.
I really don't understand the deregulation I should read up on it before I talk about it. I did read the usage went up but crime went down which sounded good to me. I mean we already have the usage. This whole thing gives me a headache. Everyone in my city owns a gun and it's not a big deal. we live in a violent society and it ain't going away. Some people just go live in the hills or surround themselves with armour. I just live.
til I die. I feel a Neil Young song coming on :)
love you.
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Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 23:05:18 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Raves/house stuff in Tucson and Arizona
Message:
Found loads of stuff happening your way, I'll dig out the adds.

Then maybe you'd have something else that's as enjoyable as here for Sundays!!

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 00:32:26 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: thanks please send! i think I went though
Message:
went to one last weekend. (?) or sometime recently.
I love house because no one cares. Was it D-v-8?
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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 02:52:32 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: thanks please send! i think I went though
Message:
I love house because no one cares.'

You mean like on-the-pull males giving constant grief?

mind you a bloke I know liked house do's because he'd never been anywhere without at least one fight, ever, in his life, he coudn't believe it, after three weeks going & of course the right chemicals he was off on one for years.

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 03:01:28 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: exactly hamzen
Message:
One of the few places I can go alone and not feel like I need to wear twenty layers of clothes and dump down or something :) and myself. Which can be strange. as if I had to add that. Such a welcome relief, especially here (you can imagine)
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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 03:20:53 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Ironic or what, modern music goes deeperthan guru
Message:
Have you ever thought of going or been to the burning man festival?

If you're not doing anything first week in august, a group of us are going to the big chill festival, a seriously gorgeous festi, I mean seriously; three stages, 24 hour site radio and restaurant- peacocks and parrots on site- only 1500- so safe you could leave your tent open- seriously cool underground dj's- 21c underground funk,

as you can imagine, great vibe

??

Must check that site out tonight to see what they play at that club, ain't the internet amazing,
yeeeeeees says tony

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 03:25:42 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: where? I may do that
Message:
Is it in Europe?
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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 03:31:25 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: yeah, england, dorset/hampshire border (nt)
Message:
a
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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 03:43:48 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: There's a Burning Man Fest near Las Vegas nt
Message:
mm
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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 04:01:37 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: FYI: Official site is www.burningman.com nt
Message:
mm
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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 04:04:41 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: thanks
Message:
Somehow I wouldn't feel as safe in Vegas though! not in a tent anyway. Unless I brought my gun? JUST KIDDING
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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 04:10:50 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Not a Bad Idea :-)) It Gets Nuts There
Message:
A fire extinguiser's a good idea too. Somebody got killed last year. It's gotten progressively wilder these past few years. No more Woodstock generation...
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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 04:15:31 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: my son worked Woodstock last year
Message:
Was on top of a very high light tower when they all went nuts.
Scary shit. He was disgusted. They all left all these expensive tents. And shit, literally in the tents. Didn't feel like using the bathrooms. nice. Yeah no more hippies. +
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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 04:38:33 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: I Hope He Got Some Good Stuff nt
Message:
mm
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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 04:42:42 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: he wanted nothing to do with it.
Message:
Just brought home lots of money and some tee shirts. new ones!!
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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 05:01:32 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Cash is hell of a lot easier to carry anyway nt
Message:
mm
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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 05:03:11 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: definitely makes for better friends on the plane
Message:
hjhjk :)
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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 05:15:08 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: LOL--Ain't It The Truth
Message:
One of my fave bumper stickers is:

Who ever said money doesn't buy you happiness didn't know where to shop.

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Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 23:00:07 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Maybe alive, not much energy for kicking,
Message:
been a hell of a few weeks, ahh there ya go, such is.

Anyway settled into me new place, everything all cabled up, and have you got some sounds coming.....
Just had this horrific pic of gm getting into house stuff come to mind, nah it couldn't happen could it, could you imagine him dancing, really dancing, taking an 'e' and opening up, what a horrific thought.

As it is he's already given veggie stuff & macs a bad name......
Talking of which, does he still ever sport those dodgy moustaches. Maybe that's the tester for detachment from ev bollox, when you can no longer picture him mentally.

If this was early nineties, it was 'e's, even the really dodgy crowd got into them, even football hooliganism went down!

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 00:00:45 (GMT)
From: Selene!
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: oh man that is some image images i mean
Message:
You woke me up hamzen!!
ha I look forward to the music.
the images well, they were picturesque.
and sadly I *could* visualize mosly. ah well guess that is why we are here. I'm glad you are here anyway.
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Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 18:41:28 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: that's exactly what I am afraid of Monmot
Message:
The black market issue. Living where I do, I see what happens with illegal contraband and the people who trade arms and drugs as it is. Hate to see it escalate.
It *is* a tough issue and I'm appreceative that you can think differently from me and not attack. Charlton Heston is bizarre I don't pay much attention to any figureheads. I saw him on Politically Incorrect recently, he didn't have much to say.
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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 01:46:12 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: and since we're sharing our fears
Message:
Selene:

The thing about registration (if it works and poeple don't hoard unregistered weapons) is that it vastly improves the ability to track what happens with weapons traffic. You can determine who the chief offenders are and target them. I'd also be willing to see a law that made use of a firearm during commission of felony a capital offense, but there'd be a lot of opposition on the basis that it'd be socioeconomically or racially discriminatory. Yeah, we have a real doozy of a problem on our hands... and that's not the worst of it. I once saw a great SNL skit about the use of atomic weapons as personal defense. People carrying nukes around threatening to detonate them if they were ever 'hassled.' Very funny, but...

--Scott

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 02:15:45 (GMT)
From: selene
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: oh and that was a joke but.. I doubt it went over
Message:
get it Partition and all???
I give up!!
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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 02:09:26 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: good luck Scott
Message:
I'll sign your partition.
really. see you at the rave. and did I say something to offend you?
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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 03:48:29 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: My hard drive partition, do you mean?
Message:
Selene:

What's a 'house' and a 'partition.' I'm over 50 and clueless.

Offend me? How? No, the SNL skit was actually during the anti-nuke era, and was very funny in that context. The point being that nukes afford security only if everyone else believes you're insane enough to use them. I think the skit ended with Akroyd or someone just waltzing in and taking everyone's possessions as they stood there and watched shaking their nukes in frustrated bravado. He, of course, rubbed their noses in the fact that they were total idiots.

And then there was the skit about the nuclear reactor where, as the director of the nuclear facility (played by Ed Asner) was going on vacation, and he leaves instructions with his not-too-bright staff that 'You can't have too much water in the reactor core.' So after he's gone they stand around arguing about whether he meant to get rid of all the water or put more in, as the reactor goes to meltdown. SNL humor. I'm chuckling as I type.

But back to guns, another problem posed by the situation in Oz is that crime has increased since the guns were confiscated. That's all forms of crime, I think. This may be a statistical artifact, or it could be that crime might have even been higher if everyone had kept their guns, but the statistic is something of an embarassment to anti-gun people. One could argue that the source of guns for criminals hasn't dried up yet, leaving them in a too-powerful position. Well, if that's so then guns may have been a equalizer, so... Reformers have been suggesting some very stiff penalties for criminals who use guns... but I don't know the status of that reform. It's not the kind of situation I would like to have seen, given the case I want to make. Perhaps the Ozzies should have acted with a bit more reserve. People who rush a reform often create more problems than they solve.

Oh well, maybe down the line violent crime will all but disappear in Oz and we can argue that a gun ban *was* the right thing to do.

The NRA argument that private weapons protect a population from the use of illegitimate government force is nonsense. However, they've proven very resistant to logic on that score. I think it's the lure of a fantasy about security or self reliance or something. If civil order in this country rested only on the access to firearms we would've been ruled by a dictator long ago. What you're seeing here between the lines is not anger at you, but lingering frustration at the nonsensical positions of the gun advocates.

--Scott


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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 06:09:48 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Aussie Crime
Message:
Scot,
I don't know where your information about an increase in crime in Australia came from, but we Aussies were led to believe that the NRA had twisted the statistics to obtain that result. I remember that when this was happening, the latest crime figures were published in our press showing that crime was down, including that of violent crime.
Whatever the true situation is, I for one appreciate living in a society where most people do not feel the need to own a weapon.
Keep your head down, Oliver

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 05:36:58 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: yeah and *my* joke got out of sync too
Message:
The partition thing went up above for some reason.
it's ok I don't take this stuff that seriously
I really don't! More important things to think of. Thanks for responding. It's not that I don't care about it. And consider the issues. Obviously I do. But I don't believe there is a solution
here on these pages. And I am not offended or anything.
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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 11:48:09 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: yeah and *my* joke got out of sync too
Message:
Selene:

I don't think there's a solution here either. I'd have thought that crime was always higher in the US, but it appears to matter just what sort of crime you're talking about. Crime against property, and even some sort of crime against persons appear to be higher in the UK, for instance. Murder is higher here, that's for sure, but not necessarily assault and burglary. I used to have the address of a site with crime statistics on Frank Fukuyama's page. Will see if I can scrounge it up in case anyone is interested. Don't quote me on any of this either. I'm just going from imperfect recollection.

Another reason I'd like to see registration is that it would allow us to compile some stats about where the guns are coming from that are being used in crimes. The NRA makes a big deal of the fact that DC has such a high crime rate, while guns are illegal in DC. But you can almost get a gun in a grocery store in Virginia, so it's not like there's a shortage. There's this fellow at Yale, John Lott (I think), who published some research showing that crime was lower in places where more people have licensed handguns. As I recall, however, he didn't use very good controls... for income, socioeconomics, education, etc. And then there's the DC/Virginia thing. No telling how many law-abiding people carry handguns in DC in violation of the law. Anyway, even if he's right that seems like an argument for licensing or registration to me. He seems to think it's an argument for more handguns, not less.

So, we're going to see all of this stuff trotted out in the Presidential race and I think that even with all of the aversion to gun violence Gore will have an uphill fight. We'll see.


--Scott

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 02:08:39 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: and since we're sharing our fears
Message:
I see a lot of Humvees around town, and I'm waiting for my first sighting of one with machine gun/bazooka mounts. Although (ot) I did see both a Humvee stretch and an SUV stretch last week. Ridic. Also, the romanticization of violence in some films/TV shows doesn't help either. I recently read an article where some six year old kid shot his friend to death while they were playing, and then he went over to his friend's body and shook it trying to tell him he 'can get up now and that the game was over.' The horse is indeed out of the barn, and the barn burned down decades ago.
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Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 18:55:46 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: that's exactly what I am afraid of Monmot
Message:
I'd never attack you for your position because I can completely understand it. After the attempted rape, I walked around for several months with a hunting knife in my pocket. God knows what I ever expected to do with it, but it made me feel secure. I was pretty cuckoo for a while after it happened, and to this day I am susceptible to panic attacks, which I never had before, so it has had its lingering effects, and that's not the only one. I doubt anything would stop the contraband activity and, like I said, gun control would most likely just increase it.

Seems like, from reading your posts, you're going through a lot, so take care.

M

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 04:03:53 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: that's exactly what I am afraid of Monmot
Message:
Mon:

I doubt anything would stop the contraband activity and, like I said, gun control would most likely just increase it.

Good point, but gun control and a ban on weapons aren't the same thing. In the absence of a ban I can't see a contraband industry getting much of a foothold, except with the Militia guys and the soldiers of fortune. If their network isn't too extensive then ATF can keep some tabs on them. Lot's of reasons why prohibition wouldn't be all that great an idea.

--Scott

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Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 21:10:00 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: anyone
Subject: does he play with himself a lot
Message:
like living sculpture these threads are.
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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 02:10:55 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: does he play with himself a lot
Message:
Some threads start in Bozeman and end up in Cairo.
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Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 10:45:28 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: Friends of Charles Darwin - We've won!! (ot)
Message:
For those of you who recall previous posts on this subject or signed up in our little campaign..

I have just received the following emails from my co-founder of the 'Friends of Charles Darwin'.

>
Fitz,

You're not going to believe this:

Charles Darwin in to appear on the new £10 this autumn. See Bank of England web site for details!!!

http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/pressreleases/2000/044.htm

I'm going to make a cup of tea to celebrate.

Rix

>
To all the Friends of Charles Darwin,

Apologies for the bulk e-mail, but just in case you haven't heard the fantastic news, the Bank of England has announced that Charles Darwin is to appear on their new £10 note later this year.

Details of the announcement can be found on the Friends of Charles Darwin web site at: www.gruts.demon.co.uk/darwin/

To be honest, I suspect our campaign had very little, if any, influence on the bank's decision, but many thanks to one and all nevertheless. No doubt I'll be launching a new Darwin-related campaign soon - I promise you'll be the first to know.

I'm off to buy a big bottle of champaign, then write a thank-you note to that nice Ms Lowther at the Bank of England.

>
Good news, heh?
Thanks to all who joined in.

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 14:51:33 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: John McEnroe on Ten Pound Note
Message:
Nigel,

If you take a ten pound note, queens face up, and fold the top right hand corner back, just clipping the Queens left eyebrow at the top, then double the note over, so you get Charles Dickens hair over her maj's forehead, whaddyaknow, you've got John McEnroe.

The likeness is amazing. A cab driver showed me.

Anth the breadhead

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 21:34:00 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: You can do Frankie Howerd with a fiver...
Message:
but I forget how...
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Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 16:15:42 (GMT)
From: Dave
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Just one thing
Message:
Without looking now at a £10 note - who is on the present £10 note? How many people have even noticed who's on the notes?

Back in the eighties, it wasn't until I watched a series of 'Minder' where an artist painted a portrait of Arthur Daley by copying the picture on a £5 note, that I realised it was the Duke of Wellington on the £5 notes back then.

I bet if I did a poll of all people I know and asked them who was on the £10 notes, only about 2 per cent of people would know the answer. And they call that evolution!

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 13:54:49 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Dave
Subject: slash-backslash-slash
Message:
Dave:

I don't even know how much ₤10 is worth. Something in the neighborhood of $25, I imagine. US money is pretty stodgy by comparison with European currency. The faces and colors almost never change, which is one way to accommodate the fact that the only way most Americans will ever know who Alexander Hamilton and Ben Franklin were is if they ask some question about the face that happens to be on the $10 and $100. It's a sort of public education strategy to make up for the fact that history is a matter of recounting the exploits of Zorro. On the other hand, most Americans who haven't asked assume they're ex-presidents.

--Scott

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 00:04:48 (GMT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Dave
Subject: Just two
Message:
Hi Nigel and all the freids of Darwin.
I'm surprised the church of Rome or England aren't raising a fuss. Him providing a way for many to escape the clutches of the
churches former massive control.
Did he think conciousness sprang from matter?
Or was that a followers idea that is now enshrined in the hearts of many. I have some wine from France that I will toast in your direction.

Evolution sure does run the lifeform show.

Not human nature of course, although it was a contributor.

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 15:06:21 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: (ot)
Message:
bb-
i forgot to change the subject box 'JM and WAY' at the bottom of thread
below-i had a question for you if you wouldn't mind?
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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 01:16:32 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: Charles Darwin was a theist in some ways
Message:
He believed in an intelligent First Cause.

'Another source of conviction in the existence of God, connected with the reason and not with the feelings, impresses me as having much more weight. This follows from the extreme difficulty or rather impossibility of conceiving this immense and wonderful universe, including man with his capacity of looking far backwards and far into futurity, as the result of blind chance or necessity. When thus reflecting I feel compelled to look to a First Cause having an intelligent mind in some degree analogous to that of man; and I deserve to be called a Theist.' Charles Darwin

For the full quote and other quotes including the following, see Atheism and Evolution.

He reconciled the problem of suffering with the concept of chance. He believed in designed laws.

'With respect to the theological view of the question. This is always painful to me. I am bewildered. I had no intention to write atheistically. But I own that I cannot see as plainly as others do, and as I should wish to do, evidence of design and beneficence on all sides of us. There seems to be too much misery in the world. I cannot persuade myself that a beneficent and omnipotent God would have designedly created the Ichneumonidae with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of Caterpillars, or that a cat should play with mice. Not believing this, I see no necessity in the belief that the eye was expressly designed. On the other hand, I cannot anyhow be contented to view this wonderful universe, and especially the nature of man, and to conclude that everything is the result of brute force. I am inclined to look at everything as resulting from designed laws, with the details, whether good or bad, left to the working out of what we may call chance. Not that this notion at all satisfies me. I feel most deeply that the whole subject is too profound for the human intellect.' Charles Darwin

'What my own views may be is a question of no consequence to any one but myself. But, as you ask, I may state that my judgment often fluctuates. ...In my most extreme fluctuations I have never been an atheist in the sense of denying the existence of a God. I think that generally (and more and more so as I grow older) but not always that an agnostic would be the most correct description of my state of mind.' Charles Darwin, Ft. Wayne Journal-Gazette, 1/4/82

Quotes from other scientists:

'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein

'I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who endowed us the sense, reason, and intellect, had intended for us to forgo their use.' Galileo

Newton, Boyle, Faraday, Pasteur, Kepler, Copernicus, Galileo, and many other scientists believed in God.

And Hawking is at least open to the idea

'An expanding universe does not preclude a creator...'

He also viewed God as being 'the fire in the equations' and uses the word God many times in his writings.

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 01:32:36 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Gods from space
Message:
It's becoming common knowledge that present day man is a product of genetic engineering on Neanderthals done by extraterrestial aliens. That's why the 'missing link' between the two will never be found...
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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 02:06:16 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: I see, it's all clear now, but
Message:
who genetically engineered the extraterrestial aliens, extra-universal aliens? You know, from another dimension? And who genetically engineered them?
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Date: Wed, May 24, 2000 at 16:07:58 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Holland's Opus
Message:
G & Gerry:

It's becoming common knowledge that present day man is a product of genetic engineering on Neanderthals done by extraterrestial aliens.

When I first read that I thought it said we were genetically engineered from the Netherlands. Clever folks, those Dutch! (They make nice bicycles too, though they're not much good for climbing.)

--Scott

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 07:26:51 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Everyone
Subject: It's all science, folks!
Message:

Panspermia

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 04:32:34 (GMT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Thanks for the link Mili.
Message:
As usual, you are well connected.

I still have many of your previous links in my file.

Connecting with oneness crowd input is perhaps more detrimental than a plus, but hurrah for mans tendency to crowd around ideas and embellish and defend believe them.

You know, when you post under different names, I tend to miss them. I go for familiar names first.

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 00:21:35 (GMT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: JM and Way
Message:
Your new web site and introduction is superb.
Deserves a spot on the Yahoo search results.
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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 07:35:38 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: Don't worry, It's on its way
Message:
and will appear in about 10 days.

I've done what's required, it takes some time .....

That's the 1st step of retaliation after what EV's done to my website.

Watch for the 2nd step ....


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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 03:40:38 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: JM and Way
Message:
sorry to but in?
your use of the word 'deserves' has caught my attention and curiosity?

how does that REALLY work anyway? (search engines)
how common is sabotage? (i mean like one .com with a similiar name for example trying to hide the company they stole their name from sort of thing you know? no one oversees it technically....so if you suddenly find yourself snuffed out-the people who did it to you are most likely the ones that are listed right there in front of your nose right? it;s not like 'Excite' or 'Alta' etc...are taking 'payola' i assume?

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 04:20:47 (GMT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: JM and Way
Message:
'Warrents' is perhaps better?
Maybe thati should be 'warrants?'
I dontknow much about search engines.
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