ged -:- A sincere question for premies -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 15:02:37 (GMT)

__ Joe -:- My 'inner voice' -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 23:43:40 (GMT)

__ __ ged -:- My 'inner voice' -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 23:52:23 (GMT)

__ Helen -:- my life review--nothin but cussin'--uh oh -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 23:11:01 (GMT)

__ __ Elaine -:- my life review--nothin but cussin'--uh oh -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 23:33:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ Helen -:- my life review--nothin but cussin'--uh oh -:- Wed, May 31, 2000 at 20:43:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ (Sir) David -:- my life review--nothin but cussin'--uh oh -:- Thurs, Jun 01, 2000 at 10:49:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- my life review--nothin but cussin'--uh oh -:- Thurs, Jun 01, 2000 at 20:42:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Daneane -:- my life review--nothin but cussin'--uh oh -:- Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 03:01:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- my life review--nothin but cussin'--uh oh -:- Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 21:05:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- hitting little bro's (OT) -:- Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 03:10:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Daneane -:- I should have know -:- Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 03:48:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Daneane -:- And today? -:- Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 21:44:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- And today? (ot) -:- Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 01:35:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Daneane -:- And today? (ot) -:- Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 03:56:10 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Elaine -:- life review-- -:- Thurs, Jun 01, 2000 at 01:30:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- thanks (nt) -:- Thurs, Jun 01, 2000 at 20:44:23 (GMT)

__ Q -:- A sincere question for minds: Can't you think ... -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 19:33:03 (GMT)

__ raina -:- i'm not a 'premie', so i hope it's 'safe' 2 reply -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 17:18:25 (GMT)

__ __ Katie -:- Trying to reply to Raina -:- Thurs, Jun 01, 2000 at 04:20:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ raina -:- wo! -:- Thurs, Jun 01, 2000 at 06:22:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Katie -:- wo! to you too -:- Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 02:27:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ raina -:- third party -:- Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 07:57:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- third party -:- Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 02:52:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- You've got to give up linear thinking, Raina -:- Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 15:50:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Oi! - Jim. Drop the grudge (if that's what it is) -:- Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 18:56:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Sorry, I disagree -:- Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 00:36:19 (GMT)

__ __ Jerry -:- So? -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 20:15:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ raina -:- I dig researching the origins of things.... -:- Wed, May 31, 2000 at 04:52:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- I dig researching the origins of things.... -:- Wed, May 31, 2000 at 14:41:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ What is the origin -:- Of your stupidity? Fake or real? nt -:- Wed, May 31, 2000 at 13:16:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ Elaine -:- So? -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 22:10:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Elaine -:- So? And another thing -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 22:23:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- So? And another thing -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 23:38:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- sorry i bothered -:- Wed, May 31, 2000 at 05:01:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- sorry i bothered -:- Wed, May 31, 2000 at 14:47:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- So? And another thing -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 23:44:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- So? And another thing -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 23:46:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Why, thank you. ( nt -:- Wed, May 31, 2000 at 00:04:52 (GMT)

__ __ Q -:- get to the point, I k n w y a -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 19:27:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ raina -:- my time is my time..... -:- Wed, May 31, 2000 at 04:20:07 (GMT)

__ __ ged -:- i'm not a 'premie', so i hope it's 'safe' 2 reply -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 17:47:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ raina -:- i guess you didn't read too much of it! -:- Wed, May 31, 2000 at 04:04:21 (GMT)

__ __ Elaine -:- Are you.... -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 17:22:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ raina -:- ELAINE! OH MY GOD! YES IT'S ME Ann C!!!!!!!! -:- Wed, May 31, 2000 at 04:22:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Elaine -:- ELAINE! OH MY GOD! YES IT'S ME Ann C!!!!!!!! -:- Wed, May 31, 2000 at 04:32:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ raina -:- bummer! i guess you didn't read it either! -:- Wed, May 31, 2000 at 05:07:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- bummer! i guess you didn't read it either! -:- Wed, May 31, 2000 at 15:36:57 (GMT)

__ Gregg -:- When I was a premie... -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 17:09:07 (GMT)

__ Elaine -:- A sincere question for premies -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 16:54:34 (GMT)

__ __ ged -:- A sincere question for premies -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 18:01:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ Elaine -:- A sincere question for premies -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 18:37:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ ged -:- on drabness and illusion -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 23:41:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- on drabness and illusion and dearness -:- Wed, May 31, 2000 at 00:02:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- That's a lovely story, Elaine. Just lovely -:- Wed, May 31, 2000 at 03:35:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- That's a lovely story, Elaine. Just lovely -:- Wed, May 31, 2000 at 04:15:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- I personally liked the dog story -:- Wed, May 31, 2000 at 21:00:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- I liked it too (even tho OT) -:- Thurs, Jun 01, 2000 at 04:31:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- I liked it too (even tho OT) -:- Thurs, Jun 01, 2000 at 14:17:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Well, of course you did... -:- Thurs, Jun 01, 2000 at 01:13:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- 3 continents -:- Thurs, Jun 01, 2000 at 21:40:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- 3 continents -:- Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 00:37:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- 3 continents -:- Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 01:41:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Sincere advice for Elaine -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 20:40:24 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ You forgot Logic -:- Logic would help too! nt -:- Wed, May 31, 2000 at 13:20:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Why hide,what's your name? -:- Wed, May 31, 2000 at 15:50:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ I'll tell you my name -:- Later. Why hide? -:- Wed, May 31, 2000 at 17:49:24 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- What kind of nonsense is THIS, now? -:- Thurs, Jun 01, 2000 at 01:47:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- What kind of nonsense is THIS, now? -:- Thurs, Jun 01, 2000 at 14:36:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Well, now that you mention it, I don't care...nt -:- Wed, May 31, 2000 at 18:32:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Well, now that you mention it, I don't care...nt -:- Wed, May 31, 2000 at 18:41:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Well, now that you mention it, I don't care...nt -:- Wed, May 31, 2000 at 18:41:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Don't ask... -:- Wed, May 31, 2000 at 23:49:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- I agree with both of you -:- Wed, May 31, 2000 at 16:13:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- And you thought we cared,how sweet... -:- Wed, May 31, 2000 at 16:38:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Juan Gonzales -:- Sincere ? for El Presidente -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 22:10:10 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Sincere advice for Elaine -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 22:08:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Sincere advice for Elaine -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 23:30:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Sincere advice for Elaine -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 23:35:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Sincere advice for Elaine -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 23:42:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Tell me the truth -:- Wed, May 31, 2000 at 00:06:38 (GMT)

Powerman -:- OT - NRA Theme Restaurant in Times Square -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 14:40:35 (GMT)

__ Monmot -:- OT - NRA Theme Restaurant in Times Square -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 15:20:41 (GMT)

__ __ Joe -:- OT - NRA and Million Mom March -- Helen? -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 16:23:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ Helen -:- OT - NRA and Million Mom March -- Helen? -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 22:57:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Joe -:- OT - NRA and Million Mom March -- Helen? -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 23:32:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- OT - NRA and Million Mom March -- Helen? -:- Wed, May 31, 2000 at 20:52:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- OT - NRA and Million Mom March -- Helen? -:- Wed, May 31, 2000 at 23:30:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- OT - NRA and Million Mom March -- Helen? -:- Thurs, Jun 01, 2000 at 00:53:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- OT - NRA and Million Mom March -- Helen? -:- Thurs, Jun 01, 2000 at 13:57:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Politics Schmolitics -:- Thurs, Jun 01, 2000 at 21:09:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Politics Schmolitics -:- Thurs, Jun 01, 2000 at 23:17:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Politics Schmolitics -:- Thurs, Jun 01, 2000 at 23:51:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Point Reyes National Seashore -:- Thurs, Jun 01, 2000 at 23:05:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Point Reyes National Seashore -:- Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 00:00:52 (GMT)

__ __ Powerman -:- OT - NRA Theme Restaurant in Times Square -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 16:20:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ Monmot -:- How about 'Carne Humana'? -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 16:38:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Joe -:- So what is it Monmot..a maypole or a river??? -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 23:48:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- So what is it Monmot..a maypole or a river??? -:- Wed, May 31, 2000 at 00:46:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Actually, they are very good..... -:- Wed, May 31, 2000 at 17:09:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Also.... -:- Wed, May 31, 2000 at 17:10:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Also.... -:- Wed, May 31, 2000 at 18:58:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Helen -:- Indecent Proposal -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 23:19:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Hooters and Shooters -:- Wed, May 31, 2000 at 01:23:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Hooters and Shooters -:- Wed, May 31, 2000 at 21:17:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Hooters and Shooters -:- Thurs, Jun 01, 2000 at 01:44:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- AMish panty hose/conversations with my kid -:- Thurs, Jun 01, 2000 at 20:56:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- From The Mouths of Babes -:- Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 02:25:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- From The Mouths of Babes -:- Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 21:07:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gErRy -:- That's very Candida of you, Helen... -:- Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 00:00:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- yick ! - one of the depts. I worked in -:- Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 00:07:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Powerman -:- How about 'Carne Humana'? -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 16:52:10 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Too late? -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 23:50:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Powerman -:- Too late? -:- Wed, May 31, 2000 at 01:14:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Too late? -:- Wed, May 31, 2000 at 05:32:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Powerman -:- Too late? -:- Wed, May 31, 2000 at 19:06:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Too late? -:- Thurs, Jun 01, 2000 at 13:53:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Powerman -:- Too late? -:- Thurs, Jun 01, 2000 at 15:36:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Well Put, P-Man (nt) -:- Wed, May 31, 2000 at 01:43:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot The Metaphor Mixer -:- Never Too late? -:- Wed, May 31, 2000 at 00:53:40 (GMT)

jondon -:- The Perfect Master.... -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 11:49:22 (GMT)

__ Athur -:- The Perfect Master.... -:- Wed, May 31, 2000 at 19:07:35 (GMT)

Forum Administrator -:- Forum readership increases. -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 11:46:38 (GMT)

__ cq -:- Forum readership increases. -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 13:51:34 (GMT)

__ __ Jim -:- How about putting up a counter? -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 16:08:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ cq -:- But they can slow access down to a snail's pace nt -:- Wed, May 31, 2000 at 17:32:48 (GMT)

Zelda -:- wouldnt it be sad -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 09:04:35 (GMT)

__ Nigel -:- wouldnt it be sad -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 16:08:21 (GMT)

__ MayNerd -:- wouldn't IT be nice -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 10:51:08 (GMT)

__ __ Nigel -:- Hey Prem Rawat! -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 17:16:23 (GMT)

Selene -:- trivia - I gotta KNOW -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 02:17:26 (GMT)

__ blood -:- thats called the 'Mark of the Beast' (nt) -:- Wed, May 31, 2000 at 01:22:08 (GMT)

__ Q -:- They're actually clusters of microdots ... -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 19:39:56 (GMT)

__ __ Selene -:- hard to say your name when you go around calling -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 20:16:08 (GMT)

__ Jethro -:- Tiluks or Bindis(NT) -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 16:57:20 (GMT)

__ __ Happy -:- tilak, tikka, bindi (nt) -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 18:32:17 (GMT)

__ __ Elaine -:- Bindis?? They're little cigarettes,good,too (nt) -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 17:12:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ cq -:- You mean bidis, don't you? (nt) -:- Wed, May 31, 2000 at 17:31:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Elaine -:- You mean bidis, don't you? (nt) -:- Wed, May 31, 2000 at 18:34:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Been a Bank Holiday here, get my est post? (nt) -:- Wed, May 31, 2000 at 19:08:44 (GMT)

__ INS -:- Politically Incorrect Answer -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 16:08:42 (GMT)

__ __ Joe -:- If That's True, Then... -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 20:30:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ Selene -:- so true.. they graduated from here -:- Wed, May 31, 2000 at 00:08:21 (GMT)

__ __ Elaine -:- Now that was clever. -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 17:17:16 (GMT)

__ GAC -:- DOT - COPYRIGHT -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 14:37:57 (GMT)

__ __ Selene -:- let's 'go ask AL'(ice)...... -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 18:57:45 (GMT)

__ __ Daneane -:- DOT - COPYRIGHT -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 15:16:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ GAC -:- Thanks ;-) -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 19:12:25 (GMT)

__ jondon -:- trivia - I gotta KNOW -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 11:51:22 (GMT)

__ __ GAC -:- trivia - I gotta KNOW -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 19:15:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ jondon -:- trivia - I gotta KNOW -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 21:44:46 (GMT)

__ TILAK? -:- tilak?nt -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 11:08:39 (GMT)

__ Jean-Michel -:- There are rat's and his tilak pictures online! -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 09:27:03 (GMT)

__ __ Selene -:- blaaghhh... stygmata??? -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 18:53:02 (GMT)

__ __ cq -:- And don't forget the pics of the Gulfstream! -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 13:46:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- having that stuff here asking for trouble -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 15:48:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ cq -:- having that stuff here asking for trouble -:- Wed, May 31, 2000 at 17:38:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ Daneane -:- Wots the deal with that uniform?? -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 15:10:45 (GMT)

__ Tilda -:- Tilaks??? -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 08:55:53 (GMT)

__ __ cq -:- A tilak is the red dot, kohl the eye-shadow (nt) -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 13:44:23 (GMT)

__ Monmot -:- Tiluks? (nt) -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 02:31:32 (GMT)

Larkin -:- Well I've never kippled before... -:- Mon, May 29, 2000 at 20:38:13 (GMT)

__ cq -:- Encore! You must be Kipling's son, my man. (nt) -:- Tues, May 30, 2000 at 13:40:35 (GMT)

Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 15:02:37 (GMT) From: ged Email: None To: Everyone Subject: A sincere question for premies Message:

I have a sincere question for premies and would appreciate it if you were sincere in your answer. When listening to M in person or wether on a tape or video and your listening to him and he is talking about his 'message', is it just me or do you feel an inner voice ( now you may or may not feel guilty about this but just acknowledge that voice if you have felt or heard it) creeping up inside you and you feel you have to supress the desire to shout ' Get to the fucking point you fat bag of wind!!! ' Well , do you , or is it just me? If it is just me I'm glad at least to have this opportunity to ' confess ' this here . If its not just me perhaps you would like to indulge that voice ( for t'is thine true self ) at the next program you go to . Do it for me ,as it is to my everlasting regret that I didn't . Ged the confessor

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 23:43:40 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: ged Subject: My 'inner voice' Message:

Well, I'm an ex-premie, but I do recall sitting and listening to Maharaji speak and hearing an internal, very faint, commentary from time to time. (I must have listened to hundreds of hours of him speaking in person, and thousands and thousands of hours via tape and video, phone feed transmission, and the tapes running through my brain.) I do recall my 'inner voice,' very faint, which was my BRAIN. It didn't work very well as a premie. It was smashed down by cult programming. So, occasionally, I would think something negative about how Maharaji said something really stupid, incoherent, or that he didn't say much of anything, and when I did, I felt guilty, and repressed it quickly. I also felt really inadequate when other premies would say how wonderful and beautiful Maharaji was, and what he said was, and I would blame myself for lacking 'understanding,' 'devotion' and/or 'effort.' What I did when listening to him speak is what I think most premies did and do most of the time. You just disengage your brain, under the ruse of having an 'open heart' and I let his boring drivel just wash over me and I didn't really even listen. You couldn't really listen because he didn't say anything you hadn't heard thousands of times before. It was the only way to get through it.

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 23:52:23 (GMT) From: ged Email: None To: Joe Subject: My 'inner voice' Message:

Joe , excellent ! Exactly what I was trying to convey. That is what I felt , and instead of saying to premie friends , 'I dont know about you but that sounded like a crock of shit to me' I smiled knowingly when they did because I wanted it to be something , something deep that I was to ignorant to figure out , and years later they told me they were thinking the same thing. Its the kings new clothes syndrom . You hit the nail on the head and I wonder how many others out there would have the humility to admit to themselves they were duped.

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 23:11:01 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: ged Subject: my life review--nothin but cussin'--uh oh Message:

That was hilarious, Ged! I don't know your posts so I was expecting to read that you feel an 'inner voice, calling you to that place, that peace inside, that perfection, that bliss' instead--ha ha! 'Get to the fucking point, you windbag!!' Like Gregg I wish I had had that kind of common sense in my premie days but most of the times listening to M's satsangs, I was just surrendering my mind away cause listening to him was such torture. 'Here take my mind, my whole life too, just SHUT THE HELL UP!!' the whole experience, sitting sitting sitting and listening--YUCK! I am too restless for that! Now I do swimming and walking meditation! And the f-word! Elaine, do you really think God will care in your final moment whether you cussed alot? If there is such a thing as a life review don't you think there will be a bigger picture in mind? Does God focus on minutae like that? Shit--if so I am in big trouble!!

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 23:33:21 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Helen Subject: my life review--nothin but cussin'--uh oh Message:

We're all going to burn in Hell.

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Date: Wed, May 31, 2000 at 20:43:26 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Elaine Subject: my life review--nothin but cussin'--uh oh Message:

Scary bold underlined!I thought it was a link to somewhere--was it? Perhaps a glimpse of hell--or Sir Dave's website? DO you really think there is a heaven and hell? Do you really think we have a life review? I mean, seriously (I am curious)

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Date: Thurs, Jun 01, 2000 at 10:49:55 (GMT) From: (Sir) David Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: Helen Subject: my life review--nothin but cussin'--uh oh Message:

I had a visit from beyond and was simply told, 'Don't worry'. Personally I prefer such one-to-one communication rather than reading books about this subject. I heard that familiar voice talking to me and they had gone a few months before. It would appear that it's full of love, forgiveness and understanding in the next place. That's certainly what came across from the above brief visit.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 01, 2000 at 20:42:17 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: (Sir) David Subject: my life review--nothin but cussin'--uh oh Message:

Thanks, Sir, so comforting. That's the feeling I get also (although I haven't heard a voice or anything). That at death there will be a comforting presence who is not concerned with the fact that I punched my little brother in the teeth at age 6.

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Date: Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 03:01:48 (GMT) From: Daneane Email: None To: Helen Subject: my life review--nothin but cussin'--uh oh Message:

Punched your little brother??? Was his name Jim? Are you butch Helen??

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Date: Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 21:05:43 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Daneane Subject: my life review--nothin but cussin'--uh oh Message:

I don't even have a little brother, that was just an example! (: I have four siblings and we all used to torture one another.

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Date: Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 03:10:00 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Helen Subject: hitting little bro's (OT) Message:

Hey, I broke a bone in my hand hitting my little brother over the head! (No, his name is not Jim, but his head is just as hard as Jim's is.) My bro said it hurt a LOT, but he wasn't the one who had to wear a cast for eight weeks. Talk about instant karma! Seriously, I am glad that I had siblings, even though my little brother could - and still can - be a real pain in the butt. I think my brother is even glad he had sisters - although he would hate to admit it - he has never been afraid of or intimidated by women, and thus has always had women climbing all over him. My parents were both only children, and it was tough being raised by them - mostly because they didn't get to interact with other children when they were kids (I don't think it's bad to have an only kid - just that they should KNOW that they are not the only child in the world. Also, they might need some parental training - I got pretty sick of my mom saying 'I thought brothers and sisters would just LOVE each other' - and expecting it, too!) BTW, Daneane, I tried to be the tomboy to beat all boys (literally - I used to pick fights with boys in the neighborhood who were not allowed to hit girls, so it was pretty easy to win), so I guess you could have called me 'butch' when I was a kid. My dad wanted a son for his first child, and he treated me like one, and I tried to act like one.

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Date: Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 03:48:43 (GMT) From: Daneane Email: None To: Katie Subject: I should have know Message:

you were butch...I guess I better behave around you then. Fights with boys...one or two must have taken a swing back at you? It's interesting that your only child parents had more than one child. I wonder why they thought siblings would just LOVE each other?? I guess that is something I could never relate to since I'm the youngest of three siblings...they were just always around...I never knew any other way. Never felt particularly obligated to love them. I never beat any of them up though...maybe I will try that next time I see one of them...you got any fighting lessons you want to give me?

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Date: Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 21:44:03 (GMT) From: Daneane Email: None To: Helen Subject: And today? Message:

Do you feel those techniques of sibling torture have enriched your social interactions?

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Date: Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 01:35:50 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Daneane Subject: And today? (ot) Message:

Well now, actually YES. I am glad I grew up in a big family despite the rough justice that gets meted out when children hang out together without adult intervention. I grew up on a street in DC where everyone left their doors unlocked and the kids played til dark. WE roamed the neighborhood, played games in the street, etc. And when the kids had problems getting along, we had to work it out among ourselves. Today it seems like parent intervention is everywhere because parents are afraid to let their kids play out in the neighborhood, (I don't blame them) and so some of the lessons that kids learn working things on their own are being lost. There is a sort of natural process of independence and sense of sharing that occurs growing up in a big family. I am sorry that my kid won't have that but I am also glad she won't have to go through alot of the shit either. I think my mom kept having babies out of a need to have someone love her, she was very neglected emotionally herself as a child, so she was not equipped to give to such a large brood, so we kind of had to raise ourselves. My siblings and I are a big old support group--noone else could possibly understand what it was really like growing up in our household,,,,,,,,,we are all pretty close now. And we have pretty much forgiven our parents their own flaws...funny how that happens as ya get older and see 'hey I'm no prize package parent either!!' --ha ha SO what about you? Any siblings?

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Date: Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 03:56:10 (GMT) From: Daneane Email: None To: Helen Subject: And today? (ot) Message:

The way you phrased, 'I grew up on a street in DC '...at first glance I thought you were saying you grew up 'on the streets' of DC. Very different meaning. I have two siblings, both older and not nearly as brilliant and sociable as me. It was tough, but I raised them above themselves and helped them fit into society. One, 54, just got promoted from shag boy to janitor. The other, who just turned 42, recently graduated from High school...we're all so proud...also set the record for most years as a Junior. Yes, I did quite a good job with them. I'm sure in a little more time, I'll have them speaking complete sentences and remembering to flush the toilet after they make peepee.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 01, 2000 at 01:30:13 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Helen Subject: life review-- Message:

I know you really are curious - esp., with your recent loss. But to be honest this is just too hostile a place for me to talk about this with you. You must know I'd LOVE to. I could only recomend some reading - esp, James Van Praagh - just one little book in paperback,at the library and in used stores now. 'Reaching for Heaven' or another 'Talking to Heaven'. Those two are such wonderful starting books. Easy,fast reading. He has a web sight in his name.com.Or Brian Weiss,MD. Good start for anyone wondering. Get back to me sometime after you read a bit if you'd like. Thanks for the posts. :) Elaine

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Date: Thurs, Jun 01, 2000 at 20:44:23 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Elaine Subject: thanks (nt) Message:

jgfkjk;ad

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 19:33:03 (GMT) From: Q Email: None To: ged Subject: A sincere question for minds: Can't you think ... Message:

of anything better to think of (pardon the terminal preposition, Brits & grammatical purists).

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 17:18:25 (GMT) From: raina Email: None To: ged Subject: i'm not a 'premie', so i hope it's 'safe' 2 reply Message:

but just for the hell of it i did stick an old tape in to listen to while falling asleep last night (it was called 'Fest of K Brussels '89 vol IV)..... i must say, that because my walls are thin-i had the volume turned down REALLY low, so my neighbors wouldn't get the wrong idea.....but i found myself reaching to listen.....(at times, since i really needed to fall asleep more than anything else) (i'm NOT trying to make you feel what i feel-so please don't attack?) also-i'm not saying this to be contrary....but, i was surprised by the feeling of that 'inner voice' as you said, saying to myself things like 'EXACTLY!' for instance: 'Everyone reads shakespeare in school, but who did Shakespeare read?' i have ALWAYS been interested in the origins of things M or no M.... and i really love those sort of thoughts.... so-the only reason i thought i would respond to your post was because when you wrote about that feeling of 'just get 2 the fucking point already' etc....i couldn't help but wonder how you see that as M inspired as opposed to just you having other things on your mind? Doesn't the concept of 'linear time' mess us up for that very reason-makes us think that on our road to absofuckinlutley nowhere there is any sort of destination etc....i mean if you feel moved to 'walkabout'...than go...but why HATE someone for sounding rambly? it's because of that mindset that media speaks in 'bumpersticker'! and we 'celebrate' shallow people, by making zillionaires of16 year old Britney's and Justins etc.......it all seems interconnected. reading this post of yours made me understand better why people here's reaction to me is so horrible (most, but not all the time). even if i were in an ashram with a sadist 'instructor' telling me what 2 do all the time i still....oh! i know!...example: the diff between tex avery(?is that his name) and charles manson? how about that?.....sure charles manson fucked people's mind's up...but why is tex avery out of jail ?(the guy who ACTUALLY ripped open a woman's womb!?) well-that's a whole discussion unto itself...but... like i would really like to discuss this openly-but that feeling of walking on egg shells makes me think i shouldn't bother because people are so QUICK to misunderstand, and because your post wasn't REALLY a question as much as it was simply venting perhaps? it's very much like Tom Greene's skit, where he shows up at that ball field in that plastic bubble just to be funny,(maybe you've seen him on MTV?) and the ball players start attacking him.....the audience wonders to itself if the guy who looses his temper will be embarrassed sort of thing you know? I once saved $500 in 1993, and bought a video camera even though i didn't have an apartment (i was living in an abandonned bowling alley alcove-no shit for 6 mos!) because i couldn't believe the things that were happening to me i got that camera-things based on SHEER hateful, spiteful, jealousy, just pure malice etc. i really believed that one day i could a make these people more aware of that hate. because i was alone, the camera was my witness to it all..even my own reality check... For example, as a bartender, 2 customers let me video tape them saying things like 'What we need in this world is another Hitler! (and i STILL have this tape!these were 'upstanding' members of their westchester community) if you can't control them EXTERMINATE them!' he said, and he and his little buddy (the owner of the restaurant no less!) would laugh and go on -more shit like that etc...(i even have video of cops bursting into an apt. i had JUST rented, w/o any warning or reason etc! and their sort-of apology included! someone tell me why i couldn't sue them for such an incredible violation of my rights? anyone know? well i sure found out the hard way....'money changes everything' as does the lack thereof.... i mean it was WELL worth the $500 to capture the faces of evil! in my warped little mind, i felt like i would one day surprise these people with a PBS doc about such things you know? and even one day find the resources to sue people if only to set the record straight.. 'That voice' you mentioned made me turn more and more into someone that had to 'speak out'...and i would get fired, and fired again (would you like to see a pic of a wetschester cop with a 400 lb NAKED black woman with a bone in her nose dancing for him for his birthday? i was like out there trying to document injustice! and kept getting more and more beat up by people! I falsely believed/ assumed OTHERS were inspired in the same way! i believed OTHERS went to hear M's seemingly 'mildly toned' message because they felt moved to make a difference also...'effortlessly' was the key word, because the more i could control the speed at which i moved in life-to be slower that is, i SAW these things that i would battle full on, simply by 'witnessing' it......NEVER looking for it. but it was almost ALWAYS there. because i imagined so many others like me doing the same thing, i saw how that could make the world turn in a diff direction you know? hey! believe me NOW i know more what the reality is.....that a bunch of disgusting people without any purpose move in those M circles as they do EVERYWHERE.............but why should i hate M? why would i waste energy that way? do you feel like you are 'helping' to spare others from your bad experiences? (did they shackle you in the ashrams? for all i know maybe they did?) i've been disappointed by him but why HATE him? that's still MY energy i'd be throwing his way love or hate right? so......

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Date: Thurs, Jun 01, 2000 at 04:20:04 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: raina Subject: Trying to reply to Raina Message:

Hi Raina - My attempt at an answer but just for the hell of it i did stick an old tape in to listen to while falling asleep last night (it was called 'Fest of K Brussels '89 vol IV)..... i must say, that because my walls are thin-i had the volume turned down REALLY low, so my neighbors wouldn't get the wrong idea.....but i found myself reaching to listen.....(at times, since i really needed to fall asleep more than anything else) (i'm NOT trying to make you feel what i feel-so please don't attack?) also-i'm not saying this to be contrary....but, i was surprised by the feeling of that 'inner voice' as you said, saying to myself things like 'EXACTLY!' I don't think that EVERYTHING M says is wrong. He says a lot of stuff that I agree with - in fact, a lot of stuff that probably almost everyone here would agree with. What I don't agree with is the things he says about the Knowledge meditation (the one he reveals, has trademarked, whatever), and about devotion - or 'gratitude' - to the human being who has made it possible for you to learn the techniques of the 'Knowledge' meditation (in other words, Maharaji himself.) You wrote: for instance: 'Everyone reads shakespeare in school, but who did Shakespeare read?' i have ALWAYS been interested in the origins of things M or no M....and i really love those sort of thoughts.... so-the only reason i thought i would respond to your post was because when you wrote about that feeling of 'just get 2 the fucking point already' etc....i couldn't help but wonder how you see that as M inspired as opposed to just you having other things on your mind? Doesn't the concept of 'linear time' mess us up for that very reason-makes us think that on our road to absofuckinlutley nowhere there is any sort of destination etc....i mean if you feel moved to 'walkabout'...than go...but why HATE someone for sounding rambly? it's because of that mindset that media speaks in 'bumpersticker'! and we 'celebrate' shallow people, by making zillionaires of 16 year old Britney's and Justins etc.......it all seems interconnected. I don't have a problem with M being a rambling-type of speaker (I can't speak for Ged - but generally I don't mind listening to people that ramble if they have something to say). The problem that I see here is that we were supposed to hang onto Maharaji's every word - that EVERY little syllable that came out of his mouth was supposed to be significant. It's not the 'bumpersticker' culture thing - at least the way I see it - it's the fact that we were supposed to listen intently like he was delivering a very concise and direct speech, while in fact he rambled all over the place. But even his ramblings were supposed to be a BIG DEAL - analogies he used, stories he told, etc. Personally, I just rebelled (inwardly, first) against this after a while. I would meditate on 'Holy Name' (a.k.a. Third technique) while Maharaji was speaking - figuring I would then get the 'spiritual significance' of what he was saying withought having to really listen to him. I STILL (after 25 years) find myself doing this when I listen to his videos. Frankly, I agree with what Ged said. The problem isn't that he was a bad speaker, or a good speaker, but that we were supposed to treat every word that came from his lips as 'divine'. Raina, you gave the example of M saying 'Everyone reads shakespeare in school, but who did Shakespeare read?' Of course, this is an interesting and thought-provoking question. What really bothers me about M saying stuff like that is that he doesn't even try to ANSWER the question. If I were in an English class about Shakespeare, and the teacher said that question (VERY possible, BTW), then the teacher would most likely say what they thought, and then give further reading, and so forth. M just USES that question as a way to promote himself - do you really think he even THINKS about Shakespeare - or has even read him, except maybe when he was in school. Believe me, I have heard enough little M analogies like this to be VERY sick of them. After a while, you just zone out, and say 'oh yeah, he's bringing up something that I care about [like Shakespeare] but that he doesn't care about except that it fits his purpose. I was watching some M videos the other night, and there was a quote by e.e. Cummings in one of them (they did not give a reference or copyright for this quote, by the way!). It just REALLY bothered me, because I love e.e. cummings, and they were just USING this quote to get their point across. You wrote: reading this post of yours made me understand better why people here's reaction to me is so horrible (most, but not all the time). even if i were in an ashram with a sadist instructor' telling me what 2 do all the time i still....oh! i know!...example: the diff between tex avery(?is that his name) and charles manson? how about that?.....sure charles manson fucked people's mind's up...but why is tex avery out of jail?(the guy who ACTUALLY ripped open a woman's womb!?) well-that's a whole discussion unto itself...but... I don't understand the analogy here - are you saying that either your posts, or M's speaking, is not as bad as a lot of other things that go on in the world? If so, I definitely agree. One of the reasons for mis-communication on this forum, though, is that this IS a forum to talk about Maharaji, and his effects on people. So naturally, that's the subject of conversation, and people are going to speak very emphatically about how they feel. They are not relating it to everything else in the world. Also, Raina, I am not sure you know how FREEING it is for people to say bad things about Maharaji. We were taught that we would - basically - go to hell, if we even expressed doubts about Maharaji being right, or about him being less than perfect in any way. So if posts on this forum sometimes seems way out of line - that is why. We were even supposed to worship the way he LOOKED. (skipped some) You wrote: I once saved $500 in 1993, and bought a video camera even though i didn't have an apartment (i was living in an abandonned bowling alley alcove-no shit for 6 mos!)because i couldn't believe the things that were happening to me i got that camera-things based on SHEER hateful, spiteful, jealousy, just pure malice etc. i really believed that one day i could a make these people more aware of that hate. because i was alone, the camera was my witness to it all..even my own reality check... (and then you gave examples - e.g. people saying'What we need in this world is another Hitler!) 'That voice' you mentioned made me turn more and more into someone that had to 'speak out'...and i would get fired, and fired again (would you like to see a pic of a wetschester cop with a 400 lb NAKED black woman with a bone in her nose dancing for him for his birthday?) i was like out there trying to document injustice! and kept getting more and more beatup by people! I falsely believed/ assumed OTHERS were inspired in the same way! i believed OTHERS went to hear M's seemingly 'mildly toned' message because they felt moved to make a difference also...'effortlessly' was the key word, because the more i could control the speed at which i moved in life-to be slower that is, i SAW these things that i would battle full on, simply by 'witnessing' it......NEVER looking for it. but it was almost ALWAYS there. because i imagined so many others like me doing the same thing, i saw how that could make the world turn in a diff direction you know? hey! believe me NOW i know more what the reality is.....that a bunch of disgusting people without any purpose move in those M circles as they do EVERYWHERE.............. Raina, we are coming from really different places here, so I hope we can relate to each other. I have known from day one (not exaggerating) that the world is a really horrible place, that people are very cruel to each other and to other beings, that they will say things like 'Hitler had the right idea', that there is all kinds of awful shit going on every day all around me. Of course, there are things that people do and say that are so terrible that they shock me, but basically, those just affirm my view of human beings, and given that - my view of MYSELF as a human being. Egro - I felt guilty constantly for being human, and for being alive - I felt that I was adding to the misery of the world just by existing. Don't take this wrong, but basically, I felt like I didn't even NEED a video camera - I have a very good visual memory, and what I wanted was for the memories of horrible events in my head to stop playing. I grew up in the very early seventies, and, at that time, I knew other people who were similarly disenchanted - who KNEW that things were screwed up. I started hanging around with these people and then I met more and more people, and finally we all got into 'the spiritual trip'. But basically, the spiritual trip(s) we were on didn't seem to be helping anybody or changing us, so when I (we) heard about Maharaji, I thought 'this is IT'. I'm not really sure what M says now, but at that time, he was saying that he was going to bring peace to the world, and that everyone who received knowledge was going to be healed of all their screwed-up-ness. And of course, most of the premies I met at that time (most somewhat older than me) had been trying all kinds of stuff to change the world, and to change themselves, and had decided Maharaji was IT too. Many of them were very good people. One thing about the M trip that really made me feel better is that I felt that there was a solution and an answer. When I started thinking about all the horrible things in the world, I could replace that thought with the idea that M was going to fix everything, and I (with everyone else) was going to help him do it. And for a while, the premies did do lots of community service stuff, and I felt really good about that. I guess I became disenchanted when I realized (after attending my first semester of college) that M was really NOT going to bring peace to the world - and that he was, in fact - just setting up another religion. At this time (1977), Maharaji, and thus the premies, had completely dropped any idea of community service and so forth, and the whole trip had moved to the idea of devotion to Maharaji. A lot of the people I knew who had been very into changing the world were becoming complacent in just devoting themselves to Maharaji. I finally realized that Maharaji was just ANOTHER human being who was setting himself up to be worshipped, and who wouldn't 'change the world', so I left. It's been a big struggle for me to see life as worth living - and myself as worth existing - because people are so awful to each other. You really don't have to tell me about all the stuff you filmed with your camera - although you can - I KNOW those kind of people - and that kind of mindset - exists all over the place. For a while I made a huge point of reading all the 'bad news' I could find - I thought (irrationally) that, somehow, if *I* suffered while reading it than that would take some of the pain away. I went around feeling despondent and suicidal all the time. Finally a couple of people convinced me that I wasn't helping anyone else by feeling bad (and like I wanted to die because I was human) all the time. Also, that *if* I wasn't going to kill myself (and that's always an option - for anyone), that I needed to find reasons to live. Because if you DO make the conscious decision to live - to NOT kill yourself - then I feel that it's really important not to feel like life is just really terrible all the time. Anyway, since then - with many lapses - I have honestly tried to seek out GOOD things about people - and read and hear about the GOOD things people do. There are some, you know (this sounds funny, but I believed for a while that the sum of human actions was overwhelmingly negative). I was worried about being in denial by doing this - and not, for example, watching the local news and reading the paper every morning - but these same people convinced me that I definitely would not and could not be in denial - just because that's the way I am. I am still always aware of all the bad stuff that people do - living in the world, you can't avoid knowing about it - but I conciously try to counteract that by thinking about people I know or who have heard of who have done good things for other people and beings - or are just good people. You wrote: but why should i hate M? why would i waste energy that way? do you feel like you are 'helping' to spare others from your bad experiences? (did they shackle you in the ashrams? for all i know maybe they did?) i've been disappointed by him but why HATE him? that's still MY energy i'd be throwing his way love or hate right? I agree - I don't HATE Maharaji, at all. Like you said, it take a lot of energy to HATE someone - almost as much as it does to love someone. I think many of the things he says are really wrong, and that they make people feel bad or inadequate. I basically got involved with the ex-premie site and forum because (as I have said elsewhere), I found out that a close premie friend of mine had killed himself. When I started posting on the forum, and helping with the site, I found that there were a LOT of premies and ex-premies and whatever in pain out there. And, because I had received and practiced knowledge, talking to ex-premies was something I could DO. It seemed to help other people - and I know it helped me a lot. Anyway, for me it's not at all about hating M - it's about healing from what M has done to people. Of course, there are people on here that really do hate M - but I think they have the right - as you said maybe they were 'shackled in the ashrams' or something (psychological bondage can be pretty horrible), or it's because they loved him so much when he really did not care about them at all. You may say that this is a symptom - that these people would have been messed up anyway. Maybe so, but following M is how they (and I) chose to express it, and LEAVING M - and talking about it - is how we are choosing to heal ourselves. Hope this makes some sense, and that I addressed at least some of what you were saying. Take care - Katie

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Date: Thurs, Jun 01, 2000 at 06:22:42 (GMT) From: raina Email: None To: Katie Subject: wo! Message:

ok....where 2 begin! i feel the urge to speak to you in person (if only to avoid writing 10 chapters here!) I want to thank you for taking the time to read all my shit......seriously........i could cry.......(even though i still have to explain things!) I totally understand so much of how you describe your early daze before, during, and after M. And in the same way you chose a point in my post to say 'we are coming from really different places here, so I hope we can relate to each other' I want to say the same thing. Except I think I understand our differences pretty clearly at times-but I'm not sure how easily (or quickly) I can explain..... There were a lot of points you made here I want to respond to-for example-I LOVE the catharsis element of people declaring their 'hatred' or love or ANYTHING....but i can't help but notice that it's not only eating them up (so therefore NOT really freeing in reality) THEY'RE EATING ME UP!! (or at least trying to!) but i get the feeling, after all's said.....we probably are more a like than different (you and I)..... Maybe you were scanning thru my Hitler people story (w/ the video etc), in combination with me not being clear.....but you misunderstood that I was doing it to torture myself pointlessly (?), or 'seeing it for the first time (that ugly hateful element) but that's not it at all. I believed that if everyone slowed the pace down to reveal this shit, in a silent (but deadly!) way.....tables would turn on all the horrible shit that happens. (and even tho corruption is as inevitable as moldy bread....itwas THE way to at least TRY to live consciously-to always see MULTIPLE angles...like fly's eyes! and the effect may in fact make one appear 'nutty' to the hard-core academic....but.....'we're never gonna survive, unless we get a little crazy' etc.....the whole point was that the 'question' could be answered in a million ways! know one is even certain their was a will sakespeare and on and on....i LOVE questions into questions...because really 'answwers are also built in' at the same tim (in feeling form-like brain food joy) it doesn't seem like 'rambling' to me...it's exploration....and 'evil martians' are sometimes your own anal-obsessive mothers you know? who are capable of murder when someone doesn't put up the toilet seat or something....so much for the 'cariacature' of psycho-killers! but the difference between our ways (yours and mine) of defining 'making a diff in the world' are the reason for this confusion. when i read your examples, they feel more like a traditionally 'christian' organized sort of 'God's Love We Deliver' type approach to 'Give Peace A Chance' etc.......I was like that too (sort of)....Like I would give half my snadwhich to a homeless woman in Grand Central Station, and feel like 'God must think I'm so sweet' sort of crap (not quite that bad but...you know? How absolutely radical is it to say 'piece on earth' (piece meaning 'gun')? All the things that SEEM to be 'so sharing and helpful' were too often just insincere learned behavior.....and so for me with M-he had me using my tears as magnifying glasses...i just kept breaking things down further and further...and whether my little video ever did become a PBS documentary that would remove these politicians from office(?) or if i gave my camera away to a 14 year old who ended up using it as a murder weapon to kill the person who was sodomizing him(?)....it was all (at least) an attempt to become more conscious......oh my god! ok-you know what? before i try to explain this (i'm falling asleep) i think i'll just post this for now-and try to be more clear tomorrow if that's alright....? .....what i was also trying to say about that video story: was that in my 'unique' experience, i had the misfortune(?) of falling through the cracks. I swear, as paranoid as it might sound, there were times when my 'bad luck' just didn't seem accidental.....(when the eyes that you've grown in the back of your head, start catching (on video!) state police officers shoplifting! people want to see you hurt....can you understand this? I think i'm 'helping' but people want me dead for it? the irony hurts more than a lot) But in my warped little world, the effect of M was to show me how to slow down MY own life's time, and be more aware of myself (and that always seemed to grow larger -to include shoplifting cops!). It was a way of not panicking when I had to sleep in my ($400) car (with a cat!) for 2 days. as i feel like my life might be over...i tend to sound much more egotistical than i really am....again it's just for 'justice'...because i was special....i had grace, and sensitivity.......could dance like a ballerina, and be as funny as eddie murphy, and paint (pretty well) and show enormous love and committment to people...i had everything anyone could ever ask for.....and so my 'life's gamble' was actually quite calculated...as i couldn't possibly fail at anything.....i could do whatever i wanted.....i didn't need money! money needed me!.................so i thought...........and i crashed BIG TIME> i probably shouldn't post this.....but i'm going to anyway.... i wanted to ask you some other stuff about what really motivated you to the point 'fire and brimstone' fear of M...like was there a third (or more) person? that maybe was responisble for complicating a simple message ....it's just SO totally different than the M of 1989 (my first year etc)... sometimes i feel like maybe i should be grateful for your committment that made himstick around long enough for me to hear some shit.....because, as fucked up as my life is, my regrets aren't with M.....they're with other people as I've said before......... (if that sounded zombie devotional i promise i am NOT...i'm just beat....) more clear later........

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Date: Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 02:27:43 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: raina Subject: wo! to you too Message:

Hi Raina - Thanks for your very long and sincere answer. I think I understand a lot more now about the videocam, and about PAYING attention, etc. Unfortunately, I cannot write right now because I am editing a report that I have to have in tomorrow morning (I have been procrastinating badly and now I'm paying for it). I hope to write more on the forum this weekend. One thing - 1977 vs 1989 - it's a really good question. There is a good history of DLM in the seventies on this site, including what happened in 1977 (after the great 'space-out' of 1976). Also, the Bob Mishler interview is very good - even non-premies I know have liked reading it. He was a good man. Re a third party influencing M, I really do not think so - although M tends to imply this all over the place. Maybe when M was really young and when his mother was still around, but not after that. Take care - have a good night. Katie

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Date: Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 07:57:52 (GMT) From: raina Email: None To: Katie Subject: third party Message:

no-i meant a 3rd party influencing you. It seems that may be true with a lot of people possibly. I remember the creeper who seduced me, told me stories of his ashram daze, and made light of 'pretty girls' going out making 'dates' with guys to get them to come to M meetings (satsang?) He made it sound so innocent, but was basically pimping! (and you KNOW a 15 year child wouldn't think of that. maybe dirty old repressed hindi men?) A few people have mentioned the influence of their husbands, boyfriends, wives etc.....and their part in the M committment in their lives. Even if people went solo originally, weren't their 'ashram heads of households' type managers/instructors etc? I remember hearing stories about some of them, and they sounded borderline psychotic. I remember one story about a guy who would actually hurt people physically (minorly, but nevertheless...) How impossible it must have been to really have any sort of control, over people who acted one way in M's presence, but then their backwards repressive christian upbringing would take hold of them when they were alone in their groups. Especially when M was just a child (obviously practing and relying on 'trust') and the drastic difference of the cultures etc? Like the older men who I'm sure influenced him, probably saw the american lifestyle as so decadent and aimless, thought they were really doing everyone a favor, by allowing certain 'alleged' abuses they might hear about go on? The new and improved M that I got in 1989, was very clearly referring to himself as just another 'subject of his creator'. He would even subtly mock himself for using the language he'd used as a child.....he was very open about 'this catastrophe' and 'that catstrophe' stemming from past mistakes. Did you ever see 'Curse of the Starving Class' with Peter O'Toole? The son of a rich family dcelares himself to be 'god' etc...........? If you have can you make a comparison between M's bold declarations of 'being god' in the past? The point being that anyone 'insane' enough to ask for the kind of trouble that would necessarily follow such an impossible statement to live up to.....it's so...so...so.....'Godspell' really!! People are free to laugh at anyone who would take themselves so seriously...and yet how can one also not be impressed with their bravery? you know what i'm trying to say? I mean with 'McDonald's' as the largest alternative career committment for millions in our psycho-shallow misdirected society? There are certainly worse things to 'devote' one's OWN time to...and wasn't that what M was 'trying' to awkwn people to 'knowing'? How to make more mutli-dimensional the commonly accepted notion of, an 'involuntary committment' to 9-5 linear time (aka 'slavery')? Did you ever think that you had to battle it out with all the bullshit middle-men crap? that must have gone on between warring ashrams!? I still value things that I feel I had my eyes opened to because of M, even though my life got so irreparably turned upside down.....i guess that's why I'm here.....trying to figure out what went wrong exactly. If it hadn't been for the 'early daze'-and all the bad stuff with the good (there must have been some good no?) that went on I wouldn't have gotten to hear him etc.....I feel like I should thank everyone! But that would probably only infuriate people! anyway-there's no writing a few short thoughts to you! damn! i gotta go to bed!

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Date: Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 02:52:23 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: raina Subject: third party Message:

Hi Raina - I would like to give this post, and the previous one you wrote, the answers they deserve, but my brain is kind of fried right now (too much technical writing, and it is hard to switch back and forth). An answer to your question about a third party influencing me, though, is NO. I never met - or at least I didn't know that I'd met - one of those premie svengali types, although I hear that they are now prevalent. The person who told me about M and K was my best friend. We were both 16, and she had run away from home that summer and spent all summer and part of the fall on the West Coast, where she met up with some premies. A mahatma (initiator) was there giving knowledge, and he told her to 'meet him in DC' (we were both from that area), so she took this as a sign to return home and tell all her friends about M. (We were REALLY into 'signs' back then!) Anyway, she, I, and a LOT of other people we knew, including my younger sister, her older brother, etc. received K within the next 6 months (it was really easy to get K then, by the way. I think I went to satsang for a month, and that was considered a long time to wait.) And basically, we all hung out together - in different groups - even after that. Part of this was because we were a bit younger than most of the other premies, and they really didn't know what to make of us. You wrote: Even if people went solo originally, weren't their 'ashram heads of households' type managers/instructors etc? I remember hearing stories about some of them, and they sounded borderline psychotic. I remember one story about a guy who would actually hurt people physically (minorly, but nevertheless...) I never lived in the ashram, so can't speak about it. Actually, my friend (mentioned above) and I started a premie house where we followed 'ashram rules' and we bossed everyone around (at the age of 17 - ha ha! We weren't too good at it.). I have heard those stories about other ashram 'housefathers' and 'community coordinators', but the people who had those jobs in DC were actually really good people. It was a pretty stable community - lots of couples with kids, or with good jobs, and not TOO much focus on the ashram - at least in the time I was there (I did hear that this changed later). But basically, I never personally wanted to live in the ashram because I wanted to have a boyfriend (I was a teenage girl.) You wrote: How impossible it must have been to really have any sort of control, over people who acted one way in M's presence, but then their backwards repressive christian upbringing would take hold of them when they were alone in their groups. Especially when M was just a child (obviously practing and relying on 'trust') and the drastic difference of the cultures etc? Like the older men who I'm sure influenced him, probably saw the american lifestyle as so decadent and aimless, thought they were really doing everyone a favor, by allowing certain 'alleged' abuses they might hear about go on? I think you give M a lot of credit here. Basically, people (even the 'older men' around him) WORSHIPPED him. He could do anything he wanted, and he did some pretty weird stuff when he was a kid - especially before he got married. Imagine a kid who is allowed to do ANYTHING because he's an incarnation of god. Also, at that time, the people around M were completely rejecting their 'Christian upbringings' - in fact, you had to do this even to receive K (although they said, and still say that you can be a Christian and get knowledge, I do not believe it!). I would say that if anyone influenced M before he got married (when he was 16), it was his mother and older brothers. I also get the feeling that they were kind of cramping his style and that that was one of the reasons he got married (and became independent and got American citizenship at the same time, by the way.) You wrote: The new and improved M that I got in 1989, was very clearly referring to himself as just another 'subject of his creator'. He would even subtly mock himself for using the language he'd used as a child.....he was very open about 'this catastrophe' and 'that catstrophe' stemming from past mistakes. I don't doubt you, Raina - but I have NEVER heard Maharaji say that he was sorry for anything. I know he does talk about mistakes, but he says things like 'mistakes were made' rather than 'I made a mistake'. Also, I would like just once to hear him say that he made a mistake by saying, or LETTING everyone say (and he did LET people do this without correcting them - for years), that he was the 'Perfect Master', the 'SatGuru', the incarnation of God in our lifetime. I don't feel that he's ever addressed these questions. You wrote: Did you ever see 'Curse of the Starving Class' with Peter O'Toole? The son of a rich family dcelares himself to be 'god' etc...........? If you have can you make a comparison between M's bold declarations of 'being god' in the past? The point being that anyone 'insane' enough to ask for the kind of trouble that would necessarily follow such an impossible statement to live up to.....it's so...so...so.....'Godspell' really!! People are free to laugh at anyone who would take themselves so seriously...and yet how can one also not be impressed with their bravery? you know what i'm trying to say? I do know people who thought that they were 'the New Messiah' or 'God' or whatever. Almost always as a result of taking hallucinogenic drugs. And YES, it would be brave for ME to proclaim that or YOU to proclaim that (I have not seen that movie, BTW), but again, I think you are giving M too much credit. M's father was supposed to be 'God'. M was brought up to believe this implicitly. When M's father died, M was then proclaimed as the next incarnation of God, when he was EIGHT years old. So, no, I don't think he was all that brave to say that - he BELIEVED it. And he had his mother and family, and a whole bunch of devotees in India to back him up. And he just happened to come to the West at a time when a lot of people were looking for someone to be GOD - so he got a lot of support here as well. I suppose he could have gotten laughed at here - but he could have just returned to India, where he still has a large following - and been GOD there. You wrote: I mean with 'McDonald's' as the largest alternative career committment for millions in our psycho-shallow misdirected society? There are certainly worse things to 'devote' one's OWN time to...and wasn't that what M was 'trying' to awkwn people to 'knowing'? How to make more mutli-dimensional the commonly accepted notion of, an 'involuntary committment' to 9-5 linear time (aka 'slavery')? Did you ever think that you had to battle it out with all the bullshit middle-men crap? that must have gone on between warring ashrams!? First, there WAS a lot of 'middle-man' crap. I think most of the exes here will acknowledge that, too. But basically when M said 'Jump', the 'ashram people' AND his 'management' said 'How high?'. That's the way it was. I am sure that some of the things he said got 'interpreted' wrongly by people, but so what? I got to see him speak MANY times in person, and he said the same basic stuff I was hearing from the ashram people, the community coordinators, etc. As far as awakening people to knowing - that was the whole climate at the time. I mean, most of the people I knew were fed up with the way things were, but people chose different ways of trying to change things, and trying to deal with it. Raina, I don't know how old you are, but maybe that is part of the problem. I am 44 - I grew up in the very early 70's. The things that you think M says that are unique - I don't. What I wanted - and what I was looking for - was someone who just didn't SAY those things, but someone who DID something about them. I thought M was that person, but (obviously!) I don't think that any more. You wrote: I still value things that I feel I had my eyes opened to because of M, even though my life got so irreparably turned upside down.....i guess that's why I'm here.....trying to figure out what went wrong exactly. If it hadn't been for the 'early daze'-and all the bad stuff with the good (there must have been some good no?) that went on I wouldn't have gotten to hear him etc.....I feel like I should thank everyone! But that would probably only infuriate people! Well, what I hear you saying is that M is a good inspirational speaker. That doesn't bother me - except that I don't think he is the only one out there saying the things that he says. But maybe he is the person you could HEAR at the time you needed to. I do feel, however, that if you had had to go through the whole 'aspirant' process, you would be a lot more disenchanted with Maharaji. In fact, I just don't see you getting 'approved' to receive knowledge - and that's a compliment, by the way! There are a few other ex-aspirants who have posted here who say that they liked the things Maharaji said, and so forth. I know you and Daneane haven't exactly hit it off, but that's what she said when she first posted here. So, even though his speeches bore me to death, I have to assume that people enjoy hearing them, and get something out of them. The problem is that when you get to the point of receiving knowledge (which is IMHO 4 meditation techniques that work for some people and not for others), and then you are told that because you've been given this 'gift' that you have to feel 'gratitude' to the 'master' (a.k.a. Maharaji) - basically, that makes me sick. If Maharaji wanted to promote himself as an inspirational speaker, and if he just DROPPED the whole thing about the secret techniques of 'knowledge' and the 'Master' who has to teach them to you, then this forum and site probably wouldn't even be here. From what I hear you saying, you just like the stuff Maharaji says in his talks - and I think that is fair enough. It doesn't sound like you've bought the things he says about the knowledge meditation - otherwise, you probably would have received knowledge, right? To answer another question that you asked - of COURSE there was good stuff in the early days. I have said on the forum many times that following M was much better than the self-destructive sex/drugs/weird spirituality things I'd been doing before that. I really needed rules and discipline at that time, and the structure of M's organization provided that. I also needed some acceptance, and the premies I knew - most of who were really good people - provided that. But basically, I just grew out of it. I was afraid to leave, because of some of the threats that M had made (rotten vegetables in particular), but I knew people who stayed into it far longer than I did, and enjoyed it less, because they were even more afraid. Raina, you wrote (re-quoting) ...even though my life got so irreparably turned upside down.....i guess that's why I'm here.....trying to figure out what went wrong exactly. Look, I don't want to be a mom (I don't have children, and there's a reason - not biological - for that!), and I don't want to pry into your life. But I am concerned. When you say 'irreparably' and 'what went wrong', it makes me think that you are in some kind of trouble, so of course, naturally, I am going to think about what the problem is. Personally (after some really horrible experiences) I don't believe that things have to be 'irreparable', but I've been there, and probably will be there again. I don't think everything can be healed either - sometimes you just have to live AROUND some things that have happened to you (in other words, acknowledge the effect that they have on you and learn to compensate for that). Of course, maybe you are talking about some real world thing like terminal illness - I cannot tell. Anyway, even though you haven't exactly been Miss Congenial here on the forum, there are a lot of really good people here. If you ever do want to talk about 'what went wrong', I think there are people here who will listen. Including me, of course. And you can always e-mail me, but only if you want to (and you have to find my e-mail address - ha ha! Pretty easy! Hint - I'm not a therapist, and my hippie/premie name was 'Mischa'.) Anyway, thanks for getting me out of the technical writing groove. Might even try and answer your other message! Again, hope I understood and addressed some of what you were talking about. BTW, did you write that poem/song lyric about divorce that you put in a post to Jim? It was really good. Just letting you know. Take care - Katie

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Date: Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 15:50:19 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: raina Subject: You've got to give up linear thinking, Raina Message:

I get the sense that you'd be able to put it all together just brilliantly if you'd just open your mind a bit more and just kind of let the thoughts spill right out. Don't forget to turn it on its side when you're finished. There's usually a bit more trapped under the rim.

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Date: Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 18:56:53 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Jim Subject: Oi! - Jim. Drop the grudge (if that's what it is) Message:

Time for us to lock swords here. I've put a lot of effort into reading and trying to understand Raina's posts. Often the equation didn't balance, i.e. because I didn't/couldn't understand her, I resented the effort I'd put in. But that last post of hers 'third party' - read like a breath of fresh air. And your 'trapped under the rim' jibe sounded like it came from the other side of the U-bend. Dig?

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Date: Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 00:36:19 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: cq Subject: Sorry, I disagree Message:

I don't think she's saying anything. Oh yeah, other than really meaningless things like how Maharaji wanted us to 'awaken' after all. What bullshit. Awaken from what?

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 20:15:11 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: raina Subject: So? Message:

'Everyone reads shakespeare in school, but who did Shakespeare read?' What was the point in M asking this question? Did he make one, or are we supposed to read between the lines, here? Because in the context you present it, it means nothing.

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Date: Wed, May 31, 2000 at 04:52:31 (GMT) From: raina Email: None To: Jerry Subject: I dig researching the origins of things.... Message:

like the origins of what human beings hold sacred and worship (like people do shakespeare) like i explained in the first post.... i LOVE understanding the origins of things.... (even tho that's technically impossible to do when you get right down to it) even stupid shit... like did you ever contemplate the thought that SOMEBODY that nobody knows was the FIRST (very very very first) person to say something like 'cool'....like HOW did it become such a long-lasting expression.... like i imagine a BBQ somewhere, and this really funny moment where everyone was just dumbstruck, or laughing,....an historical moment really, that just never gets recognized...and there are TONS obviously...it makes you wonder if other writers, who were perhaps murdered or simply never recognized (imagine all the reasons) during Shakespeares time, were possibly better than william...... like 'from where comes our history'...who decides what society deems worthy...and why (imagine all the incestuous, nepotistic sleez... or not.....things are truly great and stand 'the test of time' etc obviously sometimes for purely organic reasons....) maybe that's not the best example....('cool') but ya i guess it is sort of 'between the lines' stuff.... or 'essence' might be a better word than 'stuff'? personally i love that way of thinking i guess you don't?

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Date: Wed, May 31, 2000 at 14:41:17 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: raina Subject: I dig researching the origins of things.... Message:

You see, what I don't understand is what the connection between the 'origins of things', and Maharaji's statement is. There doesn't appear to be one. To me, you're disjointed. I don't see a cohesive train of thought in you. That makes having a meaningful discussion with you somewhat difficult, if not outright impossible.

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Date: Wed, May 31, 2000 at 13:16:18 (GMT) From: What is the origin Email: None To: raina Subject: Of your stupidity? Fake or real? nt Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 22:10:40 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Jerry Subject: So? Message:

It's poetic license,Jerry - paaalease. Men....

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 22:23:23 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Jerry Subject: So? And another thing Message:

But you're saying you have no problem with the rest??? Is it?

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 23:38:00 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Elaine Subject: So? And another thing Message:

Are you raina? Is he, she or it some kind of alter ego of your's? Why would you care what I think of the rest of the stuff raina had to say, otherwise? The only sensible thing raina said, sort of, was that it's a waste of energy to hate Maharaji. Other than that, I find the things raina says to be the jabberings of someone either menatally ill or, worse, purposely infantile for fear of having an intelligent conversation with anyone here.

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Date: Wed, May 31, 2000 at 05:01:45 (GMT) From: raina Email: None To: Jerry Subject: sorry i bothered Message:

it's funny.... i wasn't going to reply to your posts because i thought you were 'gerry'... didn't even want to bother reading etc. but then i noticed the J...... ya i get ugly when people write shit like you wrote here to elaine.... if you can imagine me eager and curious to see if you had maybe read that long post (as elaine had asked you etc) ... you'll take pleasure, i'm sure, in knowing that you made me feel a little more than sad..... and now i'll know better than to bother reading any G/Jerry's posts! but feel free to read my posts....keeping in mind that i wouldn't trade places with you in a million years.....

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Date: Wed, May 31, 2000 at 14:47:35 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: raina Subject: sorry i bothered Message:

you'll take pleasure, i'm sure, in knowing that you made me feel a little more than sad..... No, raina, I don't take pleasure in making people sad. Sorry that I made you so. I just think that you're very difficult to follow or understand, sometimes. If you don't read my posts, anymore, that's fine. It will be no great loss for either one of us.

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 23:44:16 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Jerry Subject: So? And another thing Message:

Jerry, Don't get paranoid on me,now. Or menatally ill, either, for that matter.

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 23:46:47 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Elaine Subject: So? And another thing Message:

Not bad, Elaine, not bad. I'm not paranoid.

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Date: Wed, May 31, 2000 at 00:04:52 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Why, thank you. ( nt Message:

om

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 19:27:07 (GMT) From: Q Email: None To: raina Subject: get to the point, I k n w y a Message:

I k n w y a = I know not what you are

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Date: Wed, May 31, 2000 at 04:20:07 (GMT) From: raina Email: None To: Q Subject: my time is my time..... Message:

it's so funny to read people who tell you to 'hurry up and get 2 the point!' it's like! wha? r u cirious? my life....my time.....write for you are you saying? you need soundbites? (unless people are 'worthy celebs' of course! then people will eat ANYTHING up-even if they hate the 'star'.....isn't it weird that we commoners pressure each other to 'speed it up already!' i might think you don't care a shit about me! ouch!) you have somewhere better to be? ( i did get a little long winded...but i was hoping ONE person might really read it all...)

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 17:47:43 (GMT) From: ged Email: None To: raina Subject: i'm not a 'premie', so i hope it's 'safe' 2 reply Message:

ok ,Raina , I have read some of your earlier postings and to be honest I think I had made my mind up not to answer any of your postings becuase I percieved them to be incoherent and confrontational , but given that you are posting in answer to one that I sent which in its own way could be seen as confrontational ( although the underlying theme was me trying to be ironic, I guess I was trying to say that M seems to talk a lot without saying much and that it could be quite off-putting ). I would just like to say that I would be happy to answer or get into a conversation with you if you could be more clear in what your point is. It may be that I don't understand you not becuase you ramble but because I'm not clever enough to understand you so please keep it simple for me. Personally I percieve you as very angry about something and would be happy to talk to you about it in a clear way. In no way do I mean this to be condescinding ( how could I, I cant even spell the word!) but it seems a hell of a waste of energy to do all that writing with such a lack of response ( at least positive response) to show for it. ged

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Date: Wed, May 31, 2000 at 04:04:21 (GMT) From: raina Email: None To: ged Subject: i guess you didn't read too much of it! Message:

i admit i may not be an easy read.... for instance when i use ALL CAPS i might be trying to simply capture the rhythm of my speaking voice....or the dot dot dots may be a pause, or trying to sneak 2 grammatically illegal sentences together...... i did respond to you......but this is the internet keep in mind? i actually enjoyed writing down all that rambling this am.....i even looked forward to coming home hoping that you (or maybe someone else?) might have ACTUALLY read it..... i pretty sure you didn't read it because in your 2nd post you re-state things that i said i already understood about the intentions (possibly sarcastic) in your first post.... i'm going to go see if any one else read it...... thanx for getting me reflecting more.... it helps to gather memories (good and bad) i will tell you something else i thought about tho: because i had a feeling you wouldn't read my entire post (it was long!) it reminded me about something i once heard M say, about how he 'doesn't ever want to listen to anybody else (facetiously)' because that was (now i will paraphrase BADLY) the point of 'know thyself' etc.............. it might APPEAR as rambling to you.... but i've had a goddam amazing and fascinating life-hell, pain and all..... and i enjoy listening to myself! (granted i should put more effort into a more formal style perhaps to be more clear....but it's hard to really care when people usually don't really want to take the time anyway.....) i type as if i'm speaking on a phone if that helps? what did you think about my videotaping the Hitler guys?

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 17:22:26 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: raina Subject: Are you.... Message:

raina, this is probably you're real name ---- but could you possibly be Ann C.??

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Date: Wed, May 31, 2000 at 04:22:45 (GMT) From: raina Email: None To: Elaine Subject: ELAINE! OH MY GOD! YES IT'S ME Ann C!!!!!!!! Message:

sorry! just kidding...... who the hell is Ann C!!

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Date: Wed, May 31, 2000 at 04:32:03 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: raina Subject: ELAINE! OH MY GOD! YES IT'S ME Ann C!!!!!!!! Message:

Some crazy chick that didn't receive K either,was very intelligent ( not flattery - just a fact),I liked her alot,was very entertaining - kind of a hot head trouble maker,had an intense life history, - but would ask for tapes of M so she could fall asleep at night. She said to me 'Have you ever LISTENED to him talk? He puts me right to sleep.' I mean how could I not think this was you??? I miss her.

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Date: Wed, May 31, 2000 at 05:07:48 (GMT) From: raina Email: None To: Elaine Subject: bummer! i guess you didn't read it either! Message:

except for a few words like 'sleep' and 'didn't recieve K' (take it easy with the 'c' word huh?!) it would appear you didn't read that long post either......i just couldn't stop or shorten it.....i really thought someone might get it...oh well no biggie....

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Date: Wed, May 31, 2000 at 15:36:57 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: raina Subject: bummer! i guess you didn't read it either! Message:

raina, I knew I'd get some flak on the 'c' word ---but you know ---I couldn't help it - that really was what she was ---and she was delightful...example ---Broad daylight she's standing in front of a gift shop waiting for something ---a police car pulls up because the shop owner in this very sweet tourist town, reported her as a hooker. She was in her everyday clothes...which consisted of mini-skirt,tons of jewlery,gobs of black eyeliner,always big hoop earrings,her long black hair,great body,and of course some sex-kitten shoes, and of course her little black lace tank top,and her purse dangling---she was right off of the strip...she was shocked and appalled that someone would think this of her - couldn't see why.Came over to complain right afterwards so I saw her. God,she was fun. Anyway, tell me date of your post I'll read it. Elaine

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 17:09:07 (GMT) From: Gregg Email: None To: ged Subject: When I was a premie... Message:

I never had anything remotely like that thought. I couldn't very well be a devoted premie and think that, could I? Perhaps I was just better at suppressing the voice of reason than you were.

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 16:54:34 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: ged Subject: A sincere question for premies Message:

Hi ged, You're so funny. Well, as I have said before to others here long ago...even in the 70's I had friends that didn't want K bec - -not only M, but his instructors never got to the point. Of course, me personally,I don't even think with the 'f' word or call people names - -I want to have my life review when I get to the other side to be like Meryl Streep's in 'Defending Your Life'. I feel too much shame for things I've done or thought in the past to continue now that I'm 'more evolved'. But, as usual, I digress. Yes, if M says something alittle clearer and more insightful than usual - I will make a copy of only those messages. As I've said before - you can only take so many dung stories....I mean pilot stories. Elaine B. :)

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 18:01:53 (GMT) From: ged Email: None To: Elaine Subject: A sincere question for premies Message:

Elaine , I'm getting quite attached to your postings. As for the F word , yes i use it often its great for emphasis but appreciate not everyone thinks so , heard say its grammaticly lazy to use it , they could be right , but what the F*** do they know! As for the life review bit ,I'm afraid I don't believe in it . We start off at point A and finish at point B, and that's it. ( I think). What if heaven is the bit in between those two points? It cheers me to think I make you laugh though yours as ever ged

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 18:37:57 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: ged Subject: A sincere question for premies Message:

Dear ged, 'As for the life review bit, I'm afraid I don't believe in it.' Oh, darlin', don't be afraid of anything - I'll help you along with it. ;) What if heaven is the bit in between those two points? Oh, ged, how drab that would all be. Elaine

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 23:41:12 (GMT) From: ged Email: None To: Elaine Subject: on drabness and illusion Message:

yes , elaine your right ,it's so drab some us would rather believe that a money grabbing , faking fakir ( two f words!) holds the answers to it all. He is only one of hundreds around the globe claiming this ,precisely because its so drab to exist and to think that our lives happen simply becuase they do and for no other reason , I will accept anyones right to think otherwise but deny them the right to patronise me because I don't. Still apart from all that at least I can take pleasures in the small things in life like you starting your postings with 'dear ged'. sweet really.

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Date: Wed, May 31, 2000 at 00:02:32 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: ged Subject: on drabness and illusion and dearness Message:

Did you notice - I haven't done that with anyone else. :) Hey,ged ----last night at 1 am - my dog was barking,right.... So I go out to my back porch in undies and tee-shirt - when all of a sudden around the side of my house ( THAT IS SURROUNDED BY A 6' FENCE) comes three men smoking a joint and my dog barking as they are walking to my back gate ( they seemed to be cutting through to alley - did I mention my SIX FOOT FENCE).My other dog comes out - a Beagle type and immediately bites at the middle guys ankle - while my German Shep/Aussie mix decides to start getting into the frenzy. So these three guys - prob -college students- in khaki's --scramble, but CAN'T Get Out - I have a complicated gate even in daylight. So the first one gets out somehow, then the second climbs over the 5 foot gate --- but, that last guy ---oh boy he broke my gate in a panic while tripping over a big river rock that got in the way climbing over my gate that wouldn't open as my Shepard was biting all over his thighs and calves. It was so cool. I didn't call the police. They learned a valuable lesson...about dark backyards having big dogs that bite in them. I fixed my gate,but it will never be quite the same --- alot like George Wallace's wheelchair after his wife's visit. But, I digress. No one cares about me much here - but, I thought you'd like this one. :) Elaine

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Date: Wed, May 31, 2000 at 03:35:55 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Elaine Subject: That's a lovely story, Elaine. Just lovely Message:

This reminds me of the bullshit we used to dish out to each other nightly under the holy rubric of 'satsang'. What in the world was the point of your story other than to gloat about how your dogs bit someone?

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Date: Wed, May 31, 2000 at 04:15:09 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Jim Subject: That's a lovely story, Elaine. Just lovely Message:

Jim, I may ask the same of you. And your point is.... Anything Goes would have been a better place,sure -----now I'm afraid I'm going to burn in hell for my mistake. I'm just so bad and to think I thought I was telling a story to my new posting buddy,ged. I am indeed a fool. I make so many mistakes. I don't know if I can ever tell another innocent story of an exciting event in my life to anyone ever again - fearing the ridicule of others and them bringing up their own nightmarish premie past. I'm slowly learning - with your help,Jim. Elaine

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Date: Wed, May 31, 2000 at 21:00:06 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Elaine Subject: I personally liked the dog story Message:

I liked your dog story Elaine. It reminds me of a similar story in a novel called Three COntinents about a cult. WOuld you like to read it? I can mail it to ya if you'd like. I am a major dog lover Helen, the crone

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Date: Thurs, Jun 01, 2000 at 04:31:07 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Helen and Elaine Subject: I liked it too (even tho OT) Message:

Too bad Helen's dog wasn't there - she could have licked them to death :). Seriously, I live in a college town and stuff like that happens all the time. Haven't trained my cats to attack (only to barf on people) but boy, do they know when someone's out there - of course 'someone' is usually another cat! 'Three Continents' is by Ruth Prawer Jhabvhala (sp?) - it is a GREAT book. Take care, both of you - Katie

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Date: Thurs, Jun 01, 2000 at 14:17:48 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Katie Subject: I liked it too (even tho OT) Message:

Katie - thank you. Let me take this moment to say Whoah also about your indepth post to raina. I'm going back to it now - certainly says alot about you. Thank you - and raina too if she's reading. Elaine

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Date: Thurs, Jun 01, 2000 at 01:13:50 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Helen Subject: Well, of course you did... Message:

I would have expected no less from a person like you. :) But,it didn't have any point on this sight - I was just still full of adrenalin. Thanks for the recomendation on the book - who's the author - can I get it at the library? Elaine

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Date: Thurs, Jun 01, 2000 at 21:40:16 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Elaine Subject: 3 continents Message:

Hey Elaine, Katie gave you the author's name below in a post, actually she lent me the book, literary lioness that she is. The way you described your dogs biting at those tresspassers (thus sort of natural consequences, and you didn't have to call the police) reminded me of this one scene in that book. Basically the book is about these two aimless rich teenagers who befriend a cult which takes over their mansion...before long, the cult has sentries all over their land (very militaristic and weird, they even have 'drills' every morning). Prior to the cult taking over their land the family had a sort of laid back attitude about harmless teenagers partying on the edges of their property (like your attitude about your trespassers). Under the cult's regime some harmless trespassers are beaten up really badly by these 'sentries'. The brutality seething underneath these sentries (who will do ANYTHING for the sake of the 'ideals' of the cult) is really chilling. The whole book is about how many human lives are ruined for the sake of these so-called 'lofty' ideals, and how the whole thing takes on a life of its own. It was a fantastic book. One of the really scary things was how insidiously these cult leaders worked their way into the lives of these two rich kids, who were susceptible basically because they were pampered, aimless, and narcissistic...Anyway I am not sure why that book popped into my mind but I HIGHLY recommend it.

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Date: Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 00:37:45 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Helen/Katie Subject: 3 continents Message:

Already got it from the library today! --Had no idea she wrote Out of Africa and SO many others! Now to find the time - read first few pages already. Thanks you two.

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Date: Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 01:41:35 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Elaine Subject: 3 continents Message:

I don't think she wrote Out of Africa--that was Isak Denison but she did write a book with a similar title abotu Africa. I will be interested to hear if you found the book as compelling as I did. I think she does a good job of painting guru portraits with a clear eye. My mom read it (at my bequest) to see what it is like being in a cult. Anyone else reading this thread who wants to read the novel, let me know, Katie gave me her 2 copies.

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 20:40:24 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Elaine Subject: Sincere advice for Elaine Message:

What if heaven is the bit in between those two points? Oh, ged, how drab that would all be. It's all in your mind, Elaine. Keep dreaming. You obviously enjoy it. Nothing wrong with that, I suppose. But try to be a little conscious, now and then. Seriously. You'd be amazed what a revelation a truly conscious moment is.

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Date: Wed, May 31, 2000 at 13:20:35 (GMT) From: You forgot Logic Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Logic would help too! nt Message:

nt

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Date: Wed, May 31, 2000 at 15:50:14 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: You forgot Logic Subject: Why hide,what's your name? Message:

But, your probably right - if I'm reading you right that is...of course, it's not logical that out soul is eternal and we go on in other lives to learn our lessons to bring us closer to God (ie,understanding,wisdom,love.) What was I thinking??? You've helped me see the wisdom and logic that the egg/sperm/dust thing is truly all there is. Whew,thank you for helping me see what an illogical fool I've been. In gratitude, Elaine

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Date: Wed, May 31, 2000 at 17:49:24 (GMT) From: I'll tell you my name Email: None To: Elaine Subject: Later. Why hide? Message:

Why hide? Because it doesn't make any difference if I do or don't tell you who I'm. You will continue to go around and around, singing happily, that you are so special, and sharp, on spiritual matters, you read so much - that will tell me who you are: NOT!- when in reality, you only have to start being more humble, and stop assuming so much, because all you have is just a bunch of concepts that you came to believe!! Otherwise, you assuring something as if it's 100% true, and how can you do that? Advise? Truth hides ONLY behind LOGIC. Why do you want to know who I'm?

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Date: Thurs, Jun 01, 2000 at 01:47:58 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: I'll tell you my name Subject: What kind of nonsense is THIS, now? Message:

As I said before, it's abundantly rude, not to mention unneccessarily chickenshit to not post with a steady pseudonym, at least. Can't you understand that? It's also against the forum rules. Do you nderstand THAT?

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Date: Thurs, Jun 01, 2000 at 14:36:30 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Jim Subject: What kind of nonsense is THIS, now? Message:

I think SB got the message.

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Date: Wed, May 31, 2000 at 18:32:53 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: I'll tell you my name Subject: Well, now that you mention it, I don't care...nt Message:

nt

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Date: Wed, May 31, 2000 at 18:41:04 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: SB Subject: Well, now that you mention it, I don't care...nt Message:

nt

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Date: Wed, May 31, 2000 at 18:41:49 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: SB Subject: Well, now that you mention it, I don't care...nt Message:

nt

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Date: Wed, May 31, 2000 at 23:49:49 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Elaine Subject: Don't ask... Message:

om

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Date: Wed, May 31, 2000 at 16:13:17 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Elaine Subject: I agree with both of you Message:

It just has to be rude for someone to post insults -- true or not -- under the 'hyper-anonymity' of using no name whatsoever. Really! Where did these people grow up anyway? But he's right about what he or she's saying. You could use more logic, Elaine. Problem is, logic's a knife and maybe you don't want to do any cutting.

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Date: Wed, May 31, 2000 at 16:38:50 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Jim Subject: And you thought we cared,how sweet... Message:

Jim - you going to some poetry classes? No, really it was dull around here - everbody's at work. Oh, I'm sorry that didn't have anything to do with M....see just posting with you and I'm keeping my own self in line. You are a great influence on me.

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 22:10:10 (GMT) From: Juan Gonzales Email: None To: Julio Subject: Sincere ? for El Presidente Message:

come on now...You inhaled didn't ya? Admit it...You puff'd and huff'd.. fess up. talk 'bout taking responsibility for other's actions. How come you let Janet Keno get off with blowing up Waco? O' that's right....She smoked it.. but din't inhale... I got it now..... We all inhale...voluntary....involuntary... all of us...the good the bad and the ugly... Now I ax Ya? What power? and I did say Power. what force let's us do dis? just a rhetorical ? for the ex's, obviously

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 22:08:23 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Sincere advice for Elaine Message:

Jerry,dear, Could you help me a bit - what exactly is it that you're meaning here, Jerry? Could you please be a little more specific there, Jerry? (I saw 'Drop Dead Gorgeous' and now I just seem to have a bit of a St.Paul affectation.) It'll go away soon. Then I have my Southern affectation - it lingers through the years. Sorry if it offends anyone. Elaine

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 23:30:55 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Elaine Subject: Sincere advice for Elaine Message:

What I mean, Elaine, dear, is that all of this eastern philosophy mumbo jumbo exists in the minds of those who adhere to it, nowhere else. In consciousness, there is no karma, there is no hereafter. That's all a dream that has nothing to do with reality, y'know, like what our senses tell us, the stuff we're CONSCIOUS of? Duh.

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 23:35:56 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Sincere advice for Elaine Message:

Alrighty then.

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 23:42:55 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Elaine Subject: Sincere advice for Elaine Message:

Good answer :)

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Date: Wed, May 31, 2000 at 00:06:38 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Tell me the truth Message:

Did you take a nice pill today? I like it.

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 14:40:35 (GMT) From: Powerman Email: None To: Everyone Subject: OT - NRA Theme Restaurant in Times Square Message:

The NRA is negotiating a lease in Times Square to open a restaurant with the theme of 'guns as sport'. The menu will feature wild game and the restaurant will showcase guns and include a shooting range. NRA Vice-President Wayne LaPierre spoke in an interview and said that 35-40 million American families enjoy guns as sport, mothers and fathers and children having fun every weekend with guns.

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 15:20:41 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Powerman Subject: OT - NRA Theme Restaurant in Times Square Message:

And if they're smart, they'll have a child care room, all cocked up to look like a school, where the kids can kill each other with hungry and gleeful abandon. And if we want to tack on a Swiftian element, those casualties will not be wasted, but will be served as the Specials of the Day. Human veal, no? Any word on the name of this restaurant? Hmmm...I'm gonna hafta cogitate on that one. Perhaps plain ole 'Wild Game' would do it, although I've always thought The Food Chain would be a great name for a restaurant. I'll sell them the copyright to that one. Pray (or should it be prey?) tell me that some sane NY'ers are protesting this? Jeez, Times Sq. looks like TeamDisney now (sadly), but looks like it's gonna be Chaps v. Sweatshirts, he-men and hoo-boys.

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 16:23:19 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Monmot Subject: OT - NRA and Million Mom March -- Helen? Message:

Okay, I know this is a violation of my pledge, but Powerman started it. Speaking of the NRA, gun control, and the million man march, I loved this editorial by Katha Pollitt in the Nation. The Nation has really gone downhill in the past few years, but Katha is certainly a bright spot, one of the very best essayists in the country, in my opinion. I'm particularly interested in Helen's comments on this, since she attended the Million Mom March. (Camille Pagila, btw, hates Katha.) Moms to NRA: Grow Up! By Katha Pollitt In the end, after months of waffling, I violated my principles and went to the Million Mom March for gun control--make that 'common-sense gun control.' I've never liked maternalist politics: It relies on an image of women as basically apolitical homebodies, roused from the stove only by a threat to the nest and the nestlings. Maternalism takes the ancient sexist categories that exclude women from the public realm and uses them to win women a hearing there--children, it is generally conceded, are the one subject about which women know a thing or two--but it leaves the categories untouched. Under the rubric of maternalism, women can fight for kids but not for themselves. Thus there was no mention at the march of the thousands of women killed and injured each year with guns, or the connections, noted by Susan Faludi in Newsweek, between far-right militias and anti-choice zealotry. Meanwhile, maternalism subtly shifts responsibility away from men, which in the case of guns seems particularly unwarranted: The gun culture is a highly masculine preserve, and so is most gun violence--drive-by shootings, mass murders by school kids, racist killing sprees, domestic murder-suicides. Who leaves those loaded guns around for kids to play with, anyway? Shouldn't it have been a Million Dad March? The march has been portrayed as a soccer mom extravaganza, and certainly there were lots of nonpoor white women--although the ones I knew, not to mention myself, seem to have missed out on the McMansion and minivan that 'white women' are so often gifted with in the media. The afternoon had a family-holiday feel, like a monster playground fair--there were lots of strollers and double strollers, and cheerful, slightly self-parodic evocations of middle-class maternity like the chant 'Time Out Chair/for Wayne LaPierre' (executive vice president of the NRA). Best mass-produced sticker: 'Actually, guns do kill people'; best handmade sign: 'I'm here because my husband is an idiot.' Raffi, the preschooler's answer to Pete Seeger, had everyone singing 'This Little Light of Mine.' Not surprisingly, all this sweetness and light made Camille Paglia blow her last remaining gasket in Salon: 'The average citizen doesn't want national policy determined by packs of weeping women led by a shrill dimwitted talk show host (Hillary sycophant Rosie O'Donnell)'--or, as she is known to the NRA, Tokyo Rosie. Actually, poll after poll shows the average citizen is wildly in favor of the modest measures supported by the moms--registering handguns and licensing owners, background checks at gun shows and so on. Still, it was certainly true that the march doubled as a Democratic Party rally--just as my reluctant companion, the Last Marxist, had predicted long before it was widely publicized that founding march organizer Donna Dees-Thomases is the sister-in-law of Hillary Clinton's close friend Susan Thomases. Along with O'Donnell, Reese Witherspoon, Anna Quindlen, Sarah Brady and other luminaries, a bevy of Democratic politicians took the podium: Maryland's Lieutenant Governor Kathleen Kennedy Townsend; Representative Carolyn McCarthy, whose husband was killed and son grievously injured by a gunman on the Long Island Rail Road; Bobby Rush, the Congressman and former Black Panther whose son was murdered last year in Chicago. The President appeared via video; Tipper and Hillary worked the crowds. You would never know that the Democratic Party purposely seeks out pro-gun candidates to run in conservative districts or that it was a powerful Democratic Congressman, Michigan's John Dingell, who killed last year's bill calling for seventy-two-hour waiting periods on gun show purchases. With women supporting gun control by 75 percent to men's 50 percent, Al Gore certainly isn't going to remind them. The only speaker I heard who related gun violence to poverty and racism was Susan Sarandon, but all you had to do was look around and the connection was obvious. Black and Hispanic parents of murdered kids were everywhere--alone, with family members, or representing inner-city support groups, which typically have dozens of members. Some displayed memorial quilts bearing the faces of their dead children; one mother had mounted her poem mourning her dead son on a pole. I had a taste of what a fundamentally creepy job reporting is as I asked parents for their stories--the son about to go to college who was killed with a Saturday Night Special because his friend went out with someone's former girlfriend; the son who left the house and was dead fifteen minutes later, reason unknown, killer never found. These are the kids the NRA discounts in racist fashion as not really children, not really innocent, drug users and gangbangers. In other words: Not only do guns not kill people, they don't kill people. Listening to these tragic stories of waste and folly, I saw the other side of maternalist politics: its ability to cut through flimflam and get to the heart of an issue. After all, the decades of good-government lobbying for gun control have achieved very little: Of the dozens of bills introduced in Congress after Columbine last year, not one passed. Maybe the passion of wounded ordinary people is what's needed; maybe the image of the bereaved and angry mother is the only one weighty enough to counterbalance that of the male hunter and patriot deployed so successfully by the NRA. The sad thing, though, is that the Million Mom March brought so many people together--three-quarters of a million on the Mall and thousands of others at local rallies around the country--and under the guise of empowering them, disempowered them. Write your Representatives, urged speaker after speaker. Remember in November. Vote. But beyond scribbling a postcard--pink-and-white ones were thoughtfully provided--and pulling a lever six months from now, no one suggested anything resembling activism: picketing gun stores and gun shows, organizing with other parents to chuck the NRA's Eddie Eagle 'gun safety' programs out of your kid's school or with other students to force your college to divest from the gun industry. It will take more than once-a-year gestures, whether marching or voting, to turn Mom power into people power.

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 22:57:43 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Joe Subject: OT - NRA and Million Mom March -- Helen? Message:

Hey Joe, good article. Yeah, I saw all those women and men carrying their loved one's pictures on poles (loved ones killed by guns) but it seemed pretty racially mixed to me (those carrying pictures). But the activism on this issue in the DC area is coming from women of color, she's right on that score. I am cynical too about the political stuff--Bill Clinton suddenly coming to the forefront on this issue (now that he's on his way out). But I sure learned alot at that march--30,000 AMerican citizens killed each year by guns-- and I am getting involved. And voting & volunteering for candidates who have some spine on this issue are NOT such bad endeavors, IMO. maternalistic politics--is this writer a mother? I see what she is saying, but I don't agree, as a child care specialist (so often seen as 'mere women's work') I especially take umbrage at that kind of stuff. It's as if whatever is in a mother's pervue is somehow seen as being apolitical,and it is just not true.

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 23:32:55 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Helen Subject: OT - NRA and Million Mom March -- Helen? Message:

I know Katha Pollitt has a daughter, and I'm not sure she has other children. She has mentioned her daughter in her column, which appears every other week in The Nation, and is called 'Subject to Debate.' I think Clinton has always been in favor of gun control, but now the Democrats see it as a winning issue, and George W. Bush's opposition to any form of gun control will be used against him, especially among women, and especially in the suburbs of the North. In California, for example, where Gore is very popular, gun control, reproductive choice, and the environment are really big issues, and Bush is on the wrong side of every one of them. I don't think an anti-choice, anti-gun control candidate can win statewide here. I think Bush has all but written off California, which is pissing off the California republicans, because his father wrote it off in 1992 and Dole wrote it off in 1996 and the Republicans got creamed statewide. (Although Gray Davis, a Democrat is our new governor, and he doesn't seem much different than a Republican to me.) But gun control is being seen as a women's issue, and Gore hopes to get the same big gender gap vote that Clinton got. It was women who put Clinton over the top, and Gore hopes the same will happen for him. We'll see. I think you got wrong what Katha was saying about maternalist politics. I think she had the same reaction you did -- that these kind of 'movements' imply that only things involving children are considered something women would know about politically. First drunk driving, now gun control. I think she's saying that's bullshit. Katha is definitely a feminist, and quite outspoken.

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Date: Wed, May 31, 2000 at 20:52:53 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Joe Subject: OT - NRA and Million Mom March -- Helen? Message:

Well I know, she was being satirical a bit there, but she inferred that the march being framed as a 'mom's march' gave it a certain aura of being a big ol' bake sale and not political. I know she sees this as an unfortunate misperception. I don't agree with her that the march had this aura to it. I saw it as a very serious thing that will make a difference. Gore better step it up because I think at this 'juncture' (ha ha) Bush has the majority of the women's vote. Clinton was awesome on minority issues and women's issues, IMO. He was a good president IMO, I wish people would wake up and smell that coffee,and I wish he had kept the barn door to his weenie shut rather than piddling away the presidency. Joe, I want to write this editorial about Dr. Laura, I posted abotu this before, would you mind if I email you about it? WOuld love to run some ideas by you. Helen

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Date: Wed, May 31, 2000 at 23:30:57 (GMT) From: Joe Email: joger02@aol.com To: Helen Subject: OT - NRA and Million Mom March -- Helen? Message:

Sure, email it to me if you like. Again, I don't think Katha said it was bake sale or not serious (the march). She said she initially wasn't going to participate because of the 'maternalist' aura, because the issue was relegated to children and not to violence against women, for example, and because it turned into a pep rally for the Democratic Party. I didn't vote for Clinton the second time around and think he did some pretty rotten stuff that a Republican wouldn't have been able to do, and which most of his own party opposed, like 'welfare reform' and NAFTA.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 01, 2000 at 00:53:32 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Joe Subject: OT - NRA and Million Mom March -- Helen? Message:

Sorry I misunderstood the tone of the article. Maybe I should read more carefully before mouthing off???? Who did you vote for in the 96 election? (:

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Date: Thurs, Jun 01, 2000 at 13:57:11 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Helen Subject: OT - NRA and Million Mom March -- Helen? Message:

I voted for Ralph Nader in 1996 (a lot of good THAT did). He wasn't really a serious candidate, though, although this time he has the nomination of the Green Party and is more serious, or so he says. In my state, Clinton was so far ahead in 1996 that I felt I could do that. If it had been close, I would have chosen the lesser of two evils and voted for Clinton. It would be great to have a candidate I could feel enthusiastic about. I was tired of voting for a candidate because I was afraid of who his opponent would nominate to the Supreme Court.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 01, 2000 at 21:09:48 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Joe Subject: Politics Schmolitics Message:

WEll good for you, Joe. I think I am so cynical about politics that I always pick the lesser of two evils. This is what comes of growing up in DC. I realized from my misinterpretation of that article that I am not used to reading anything left of center anymore. The political process seems so contingent on having money and having balls of steel and connections. Really good people like Nader (look what he did with the auto industry--awesome--we can't even remember how dangerous cars used to be--and it's all because of him) don't stand a chance. I just want to brag about my dear old dad for a sec, he is retired but is an environmentalist writer and lobbyist, in large part through his efforts and those of Clem Miller, the congressman he worked for, legislation was passed preventing Point Reyes National Seashore from beign subdivided (for condos, etc) during the Nixon years. Have you been there (Point Reyes)? Things like that give me hope that people can make a difference.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 01, 2000 at 23:17:57 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Helen Subject: Politics Schmolitics Message:

It is getting progressively hard to find anything 'left of center' anywhere in this country. The mainstream media is right of center, and the far right has lots of outlets. But really, if you are listening to Dr. Laura, who is about as right wing as you can get, and think there is something positive about what she has to say, then I'm not surprised that left-wing sounds like a very faint whisper.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 01, 2000 at 23:51:06 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Joe Subject: Politics Schmolitics Message:

OUCH! You have cut me to the quick! (; And you didn't even read my diatribe on her (Dr. L), so I feel as if you may not understand my reasoning. It comes out of parenting and mothering and working in that arena forever (parent education/teaching). But you are right, I probably am much more conservative than you. But I hope we can still be friends anyway (or at least forum friends).

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Date: Thurs, Jun 01, 2000 at 23:05:54 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Helen Subject: Point Reyes National Seashore Message:

Don't you mean George Miller? Actually Barbara Boxer and good old Burton, were also instrumental in getting Point Reyes, and the whole Marin Headlands area, set aside from development. I LOVE Point Reyes. It is one of my favorite places on earth, and just a short ride North of were I live. There are parts of the area that have big herds of Tule Elk, and I saw a mountain lion there one day. It's amazing there is such a wild and beautiful area so close to a big, metropolitan area. Congratulations to your father. That's something to be very proud of. Yes, politics if really dirty with money. That has to change, but I think it will be awhile. Nevertheless, I think there is a lot of good stuff going on at the local level where ordinary people, without much money, can have a real impact. But, I know I live in an area that is pretty activist when it comes to a variety of causes, so maybe my views are biased because of that.

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Date: Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 00:00:52 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Joe Subject: Point Reyes National Seashore Message:

Yes Barbara Boxer is tremendous. So cool that you saw a mountain lion. You are enjoying that beautiful place, I will tell my dad. You know it scares me to think of the wild places being gone one day, slowly, systemically. Clem Miller has long since died, there is a educational place set up with his name at Pt. reyes (for school children to get outdoor education). My dad worked for Clem way back 40 years ago, so I am really dating myself here. His widow, Katie Johnson was very involved as well in the lobbying effort during Nixon. Now she has passed away as well... my dad turns 79 this month. I am more conservative than my Dad. We go around on some issues. But he is the singlemost biggest influence in my life. Taught me to love the wild places and he never has stopped learning. He is also a wonderful nature photographer, gets down on his belly to get the perfect photo of a wildflower. He misses the bay area dearly, my parents are from there, moved here when I was one, but they travel there a lot. My mom is there right now. Dad was my number one influence in getting me out of the cult, gradually, lovingly, through stretching my intellect. Yes I think you are right that on the local level SF is more activist but DC has alot of activism too. Here in the burbs it is done on the city council level or with the PTA which is where my activism seems to lie these days. I will get a lot of flack for my recent PTA newsletter article on the MM March, compared to most suburban moms I am a downright hippie freak. It's all relative, Joe. Ok, that's enough chit chat.

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 16:20:48 (GMT) From: Powerman Email: None To: Monmot Subject: OT - NRA Theme Restaurant in Times Square Message:

No word on a name for the restaurant yet. It's expected to be a site of constant protest, though. Mayor Guliani assurred New Yorkers the restaurant will never happen.

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 16:38:27 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Powerman Subject: How about 'Carne Humana'? Message:

God, I am appalled. It's these slips down the cultural maypole which, to me, really signify the steady decline of American culture, its shoddy morality/mentality which is obscured by sentimentality and a thinking process which veers so wildly, that it looks like a meandering river in its last stage of existence.

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 23:48:21 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Monmot Subject: So what is it Monmot..a maypole or a river??? Message:

I'm confused; it can't be both -- or is it a mixed metaphor? :-)

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Date: Wed, May 31, 2000 at 00:46:35 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Joe Subject: So what is it Monmot..a maypole or a river??? Message:

I'm just a product of our decaying culture, don't blame me for my mixed metaphors. :-))) Actually, I should've thrown in a few more.

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Date: Wed, May 31, 2000 at 17:09:37 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Monmot Subject: Actually, they are very good..... Message:

Monmot, you are really doing very well with metaphors. I mean, we used to belong to a cult in which our cult leader compared the problems of the world to an eagle smashing into your windshield, excrement on your fingers to describe (I'm not sure what), and a Superman Comic Book for his most divine, eternal, 'gift.'

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Date: Wed, May 31, 2000 at 17:10:54 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Monmot Subject: Also.... Message:

Monmot, Do you write for a living? I've always wanted to tell you that you do it very well, and it's a joy to read. Joe

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Date: Wed, May 31, 2000 at 18:58:25 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Joe Subject: Also.... Message:

Joe: Thanks for the compliment. I appreciate it, since like many people with literary aspirations, I chop my liver over my ability quite a bit. I do writing evaluations for a university. I began writing about my 'cult' days, and found ex-premie.org when I was researching some stuff. I've slowed down that project somewhat, but only because after reading all the journies, all the history, and everything else on this site, my concept of what to write expanded quite a bit, and I am in the process of rethinking how to approach the topic. I think in metaphors, which is why I throw so many into the mix. Just call me Betty Crocker.

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 23:19:22 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Monmot Subject: Indecent Proposal Message:

YUCK!! I agree. Swiftian it is--'Indecent Proposal' indeed!! Seems like people love their guns more than their own kids--I don't get it. I guess there is a rush alot of people get when they fire a gun, and I DO understand why some women who have been viciously attacked/raped want to protect themselves, ok, I do understand to some extent. But beyond that I am stumped. There is so much gun violence in the D.C. area, every day it goes on and on, and road rage too!! That is really scary! Some guy or woman decides they don't like the way you drive and get into it with ya a bit, hackles are raised and someone gets shot. Yesiree living in the murder capital, never a dull moment. So much of the violence in the D.C. area is teenagers with something to prove having guns all around them. But alot of times it is your adult gun owner just being careless, like a military man cleaning his gun the other day, shot his baby by accident! Sheesh! 4 words--take the bullets out, or put the baby elsewhere.

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Date: Wed, May 31, 2000 at 01:23:18 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Helen Subject: Hooters and Shooters Message:

I used to wake up in the middle of the night to the sound of gun fire (and I mean like a machine gun) at least three times a week, and would look in the paper a couple of days later for any mention of casualties. It was kind of a sick hobby I had. I have always found it strange that D.C., being the capitol of the country and all, is the most violent city. We can only hope that Chez NRA doesn't start a restaurant chain. Perhaps they can merge with Hooters, and have a Hooters and Shooters spinoff chain.

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Date: Wed, May 31, 2000 at 21:17:31 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Monmot Subject: Hooters and Shooters Message:

Perfect name. Isn't Hooters the most pathetic bar of all time? There was an article about it in the Wash Post basically making the guys who hang out, who think the waitresses were their ' best buds', look like the biggest bunch of losers. I mean get a life! And those shorts with the flesh colored nylons--that is supposed to be sexy? Oy, gavalt! What city are you in? Or is that not kosher to ask? My friend in Baltimore, learned to hit the floor when she heard gun fire, finally she moved out of that neighborhood thank God, but she hadn't slept in a year!

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Date: Thurs, Jun 01, 2000 at 01:44:45 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Helen Subject: Hooters and Shooters Message:

I'm in Los Angeles. Was living in Venice at that time (18 years worth), but moved a couple of years ago. It's nice to sleep through the night now without one of those 'Hour of the Wolf' wake-up calls wondering how many people did I just hear die. I'm with you the Hooters thing, esp. flesh colored nylons under shorts--yeeeeuck.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 01, 2000 at 20:56:53 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Monmot Subject: AMish panty hose/conversations with my kid Message:

I have to tell you a quick story--off topic--I was putting on some panty hose today (I know--YUCK) and my kid told me the AMish don't wear them. She went on a field trip to Lancaster, PA to study the AMish culture. Anyway I said 'Why?' 'because if you have a scar on your leg, you should just show it. Becuse we're all created equal. That's why the AMish all wear the same thing.' I said, 'It must be hard being AMish, I wouldn't want to wear the same thing as everyone else.' She said 'Mommy, don't feel sorry for them, they are much happier than we are.' (Apparently the tourguide on their trip (an AMish women) told the kids that. Isn't that a trip? I am amazed at how much my daughter picks up from these school things.

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Date: Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 02:25:43 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Helen Subject: From The Mouths of Babes Message:

Had a good laugh at that one. I can stand pantyhose a few times a year. Any more than that, I'd consider going Amish myself. They're probably happier cuz they don't wear those leg irons.

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Date: Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 21:07:28 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Monmot Subject: From The Mouths of Babes Message:

Panty hose + hot, humid DC weather= yeast infection! Almost wrote Yeats infection!!

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Date: Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 00:00:25 (GMT) From: gErRy Email: None To: Helen Subject: That's very Candida of you, Helen... Message:

he he, and Monmot in pantyhose? I thought Anth was the only cross dresser here.

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Date: Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 00:07:00 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: gErRy and Helen Subject: yick ! - one of the depts. I worked in Message:

Used to thing it quite liberal of them to pass out a memo every April telling the women we could stop wearing panty hose for the summer (AZ summer!) I transferred. Selene - at work in shorts and tees and sandals

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 16:52:10 (GMT) From: Powerman Email: None To: Monmot Subject: How about 'Carne Humana'? Message:

Personally, I feel it's too late for American culture. Only other cultures can hope to not become American.

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 23:50:40 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Powerman Subject: Too late? Message:

Powerman, Too late for what? How is it that American culture is supposed to be, and what is it anyway? Joe

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Date: Wed, May 31, 2000 at 01:14:46 (GMT) From: Powerman Email: None To: Joe Subject: Too late? Message:

Hi Joe, Good questions. I'm not sure I can answer but I'll take a stab... (and I know you realize this is all very subjective) American culture is seriously lacking in values and actions that are consistent with survival, health, emotional nurturing, mental inspiration and artistic expression. A culture gets developed over a period of time in an environment small and secluded enough to foster ideals that, when acted upon, result in the well-being and creativity of its people. American culture has been compromised and sacrificed by extreme capitalism, unchecked by social controls that might otherwise encourage a culture that would ensure its well-being and creativity. The initial greed that thrived in early America eventually resulted in technology that created communication and transportation that promote instant gratification. The basis of a culture is the vision of its people to recognize qualities that when adhered to, will promote the enrichment and nourishment of its population. America, on the other hand, is driven by corporate and egotistic forces that have interests outside of culture. American culture therefore has become the source of a mental, emotional and spiritual diet of empty calories, contaminated by the moral bankruptcy of advertisement and television, and now perpetuated by its own population. This is what I would call 'too late'. This isn't to say there aren't instances of cultural brilliance in America but usually they are despite American culture and not because of it.

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Date: Wed, May 31, 2000 at 05:32:03 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Powerman Subject: Too late? Message:

Powerman, I agree with your analysis of American capitalism, which is lacking is social justice, environmentally destructive, greedy, and paranoid, but I don't think that really epitomizes American culture, just the culture of those in power, those who control the media, and they buy off all the politicians and most of the institutions. But I think the American culture is really very different than that, and it results in things like happened in Seattle opposing world corporate domination. I mean, I think the American people have values that are very different than corporate, capitalist culture. It's a real struggle that is going on, not just in this country, but around the world, but I don't think it's lost yet. That's why I questioned your statement that it's too late. If it really is too late, then the whole world is in trouble, because America dominates the world. And I don't think technology is the problem -- I think the problem is that we have been sold this idea that we are supposed to do nothing but work and consume. But there are a lot of people fed up with that; but maybe something really awful has to happen before that will change. I think on the local level, there is a lot of creativity and inspiration going on. The media doesn't cover it, and instead focuses on the stock market, political scandal and Hollywood, but it's happening nonetheless. I don't think things are as bad as you think. Joe, with guarded optimism.

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Date: Wed, May 31, 2000 at 19:06:30 (GMT) From: Powerman Email: None To: Joe Subject: Too late? Message:

Joe, You're right, capitalism doesn't epitomize American culture but it has defined it through television, movies and advertising. I think the demonstrations in Seattle were protests against American culture, not part of it. The unique inventions of American culture are strip malls, freeways, fast food, Hollywood, formula pop music and plastic everything. I think the problem with technology is that it causes a loss of control necessary for a culture to maintain itself and advance. Witness other countries contaminated by Western culture through technological communication and transportation. The export of McDonalds, designer jeans and Mel Gibson can't be good for European and Asian cultures. The loss of cultural control that results from technology benefits society in other ways. For instance, tolerance towards people of different races and lifestyles flourishes because the same controls that govern culture also govern a culture's ability to maintain bigotry. So now not only can white Americans enjoy McDonalds, Britney Spears and plastic furniture, but people of color, Jews and gays/lesbians can also join in. I realize I'm pretty cynical.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 01, 2000 at 13:53:44 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Powerman Subject: Too late? Message:

I guess it's how you look at it. I think the Seattle protests came right out of American culture, which is suspect of big institutions, big government and anything that isn't democratic. In a lot of other cultures, like Japan for example, you wouldn't see those kinds of protests. [If Scott were around he would probably quote a bunch of people you never heard of to make that point.] ::)) Technology can result in control, but it also results in a lot more democracy and freedom. I think the Internet and low power radio are examples of that. The Internet has allowed a lot of people who would otherwise be separated to get together and get organized. Just look at ex-premies, for example, getting organized about our fraudulent former perfect master. Prior to the Internet, Maharaji was basically unchallenged, but now that has changed, and the questioning is growing. And I agree that technology can also raise the visibility of groups who would otherwise be more marginalized. I agree, though, that the media does a terrible job covering what is really going on and instead just of means of delivering people to watch advertising. It's gotten really bad. But there is still some alternative media, although there is lots of pressure to destroy that as well. NPR is already destroyed, and now it appears Pacifica is on the ropes, not from the right wing, but from right inside the organization. Can you get KPFA in Berkeley, where you live? If I didn't have that, it would really be a media desert.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 01, 2000 at 15:36:59 (GMT) From: Powerman Email: None To: Joe Subject: Too late? Message:

Actually, I'm a couple hours north of Berkeley, but yeah, I can get KPFA, although I'm rarely disciplined enough to listen to radio. I agree that the Internet has increased our freedom tremendously by opening channels of communication we didn't have before, and I have to say I love it. But we're trading off privacy for that freedom, as a similar technology records everything about us that is accessible to Big Brother. Corporations can trade data about us at lightening speed. As it stands, banks can freely trade all the info they have on customers, with other companies. And one entry of your personal info at a web site can result in a company like Double Click following all your activity on the Internet, which they can freely trade with anyone. In 1998, Intel put a device on their Pentium III chips that would leave a finger print in the form of a serial number, everywhere you went on the Internet. Protests by privacy groups stalled their efforts by pressuring them to put a disabling device in the chip. But as far as I know, the chips are still produced with the capacity to identify a user without having to obtain search warrants. I think they're waiting for the right time to make another attempt at initiating the technology, and by that time, enough people may have the chips on their computers to persuade AMD to join the club. These people who were brave enough to demonstrate in Seattle may someday have trouble buying a home, or getting a loan, or God knows what, as a result of having their arrests recorded in computers. And don't forget how similar these protestors are to the way we were in our late teens, early twenties, and that we weren't called the 'counterculture' without reason. The real threat to the Internet will come in the form of efforts to regulate it. As with all previous controls on freedom, the government will claim that the danger to society exceeds the need to have that much freedom. Their real motivation will be to control our culture (there's that word again), and they'll probably use examples of the Internet's facilitation of moral breakdowns like pedophelia, violence, misinformation and terrorism. As mega-corporations form and grow, like AOL-TimeWarner, smaller ISP's can be squeezed out, and 'content providers' can choose and limit what's best for us. And one of the major arteries of the Internet, search engines (which is like the TV guide of the Internet), have in most cases been sold to major corporations like Disney or funded by venture capitalists. The result is an agenda on how information is catalogued with the emphasis shifting from information to revenue. The Internet used to be like the Golden Age of Radio in the early part of the century, but already it's inching towards a platform for corporations to do their bidding. I understand there's a bill before Parliament in Great Britain that would enable their government access to anything communicated on the Internet without the need for search warrants, probable cause and the like. Obviously we're on the same side about this stuff, and I'm less optimistic than you, but this is at least one case where I hope I'm wrong.

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Date: Wed, May 31, 2000 at 01:43:31 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Powerman Subject: Well Put, P-Man (nt) Message:

bb

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Date: Wed, May 31, 2000 at 00:53:40 (GMT) From: Monmot The Metaphor Mixer Email: None To: Joe Subject: Never Too late? Message:

I'm reading the Pyrotechnic Insanitarium: American Culture on the Brink, by Mark Dery, a writer for the NY Times, the Voice, Salon, and Suck (this one's slipped under my magazine radar). It's a book of essays on popular culture which is probably why I'm in a metaphor frenzy. An interesting read, but since it was written in 1999, it's probably already outdated.

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 11:49:22 (GMT) From: jondon Email: None To: Everyone Subject: The Perfect Master.... Message:

was in Boston this weekend. He was offering the three techniques of knowledge to aspirants from the New York area. And his delivery was perfect. I am speaking, of course, about Sri Pedro Martinez Ji, the Perfect Master. He delivered K to the NY Yankees this weekend and KO'd the Bronx Bombers in a 9 inning shut out. I was there, in the cheap seats. Warm beer in hand, on a perfect early summer day. It was blissful. Now I know how premies must feel, when they go to see their perfect little fat man. The only difference between his delivery and PedroJi's is that Pedro's comes from the heart.

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Date: Wed, May 31, 2000 at 19:07:35 (GMT) From: Athur Email: None To: jondon Subject: The Perfect Master.... Message:

Don't forget this: Sri Pedro Ji gets a mountain full of money for his fast deliveries. More than he would received in our northern city in Canada.

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 11:46:38 (GMT) From: Forum Administrator Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Forum readership increases. Message:

Figures just in for May show that forum readership has been increasing steadily each month, since Forum 5 went online in January. The largest monthly increase has been this month, with the average daily messages read now approaching 5000 per day. Forum Admin'

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 13:51:34 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Forum Administrator Subject: Forum readership increases. Message:

So, if your average reader accesses ... oooh let's say ... 20 to 25 messages a day? - that means you're getting well over 200 people a day tuning in? Sounds like a celebration is in order.

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 16:08:57 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: cq Subject: How about putting up a counter? Message:

Be fun, wouldn't it, like watching an ant farm grow?

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Date: Wed, May 31, 2000 at 17:32:48 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Jim Subject: But they can slow access down to a snail's pace nt Message:

But they can slow access down to a snail's pace nt

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 09:04:35 (GMT) From: Zelda Email: None To: Everyone Subject: wouldnt it be sad Message:

if Mhahah says he has the copyright on the techinques and he is pissed of because they are being bandied about. That would not surprise me and it would also mean he has L O S T it for sure.

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 16:08:21 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: Zelda Subject: wouldnt it be sad Message:

Even if he tried for a US copyright (ignoring the fact that all the techniques are public domain in India etc), he could face a prior claim by the Self-realisation Fellowship (Yogananda's kriya yoga crowd) who have been teaching the same four basic techniques in the US since half way through the last century.

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 10:51:08 (GMT) From: MayNerd Email: None To: Zelda//http. Subject: wouldn't IT be nice Message:

mktg.research sample: lit'up moody blues: 'wish I could live in your heart' I don't get it??.com It's not like 'I' got caught @ the plate: prasadia.. stealing//aka: Stealing home... get caught stealing home in the 7th game o' the wurld serious .............o no..another boy george.. jam on.com// just respect....what 'we' as memoirs day... remember what the heroes...stood 4...I know there is alot of musicians out there having fun Y CAN'T I TALK REALLY LOUD... IF I HAVE SOMETHING 2 SEY.... TO THE NON-HATE BABES//ditto j/k...rof chucklinnnnng.com/edu:org;html.sample.text

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 17:16:23 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: MayNerd Subject: Hey Prem Rawat! Message:

Understanding you always required some effort. Not having your superior clarity made your addresses oft-times unclear to those of us more used to logical structuring and whole sentences. But you used to be a little bit more articulate than the above, surely? May I suggest not mixing your drinks after a hard day on the God-face.

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 02:17:26 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Everyone Subject: trivia - I gotta KNOW Message:

What are those dots called that they wear in the middle of their foreheads? You know the Hindu (Hindi?) women. (THOSE dots are not copyright are they?) It's been bothering me all day. Cannot think of the name of those things.

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Date: Wed, May 31, 2000 at 01:22:08 (GMT) From: blood Email: None To: Selene Subject: thats called the 'Mark of the Beast' (nt) Message:

no text

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 19:39:56 (GMT) From: Q Email: None To: Selene Subject: They're actually clusters of microdots ... Message:

with every post you ever put on any forum. So important you turn out to be, Selene. ('Say my name, Say my name.')

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 20:16:08 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Q Subject: hard to say your name when you go around calling Message:

your self 'Q' but if you want ok, Hi Q and how are you today? Feeling a bit confrontational? whatsamatter, didn't like the DVD? Anachist has a nice URL posted that might fix you up.

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 16:57:20 (GMT) From: Jethro Email: None To: Selene Subject: Tiluks or Bindis(NT) Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 18:32:17 (GMT) From: Happy Email: None To: Jethro Subject: tilak, tikka, bindi (nt) Message:

depending on sex etc.

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 17:12:51 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Jethro Subject: Bindis?? They're little cigarettes,good,too (nt) Message:

om

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Date: Wed, May 31, 2000 at 17:31:41 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Elaine Subject: You mean bidis, don't you? (nt) Message:

You mean bidis, don't you? (nt)

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Date: Wed, May 31, 2000 at 18:34:43 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: cq Subject: You mean bidis, don't you? (nt) Message:

That's right!!! Most have had too many as usual. Hey where you been,cq?

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Date: Wed, May 31, 2000 at 19:08:44 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Elaine Subject: Been a Bank Holiday here, get my est post? (nt) Message:

Been a Bank Holiday here, get my est post? (nt)

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 16:08:42 (GMT) From: INS Email: None To: Selene Subject: Politically Incorrect Answer Message:

The red dot is actually a scatch-off device required long with a visa. When Indian immigrants arrive in either the UK or US, the customs officer scratches off the dot. Underneath it says 'Mini-Mart' or 'Gas Station' to specify the person's future business.

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 20:30:54 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: INS Subject: If That's True, Then... Message:

More of them are now saying 'highly paid Silicon Valley computer engineer,' or 'Stock-option-laden dot com millionaire.' Seeing as American education seems to produce people who can neither read nor think, well-educated East Indian computer and engineering professionals are filling the gap in large numbers. Been to San Jose lately? It's now the digitial New Delhi.

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Date: Wed, May 31, 2000 at 00:08:21 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Joe Subject: so true.. they graduated from here Message:

and many are extremely intelligent. Let't not be mean. (but watch those expiration dates on the dairy products at the Quickie Mart!!)

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 17:17:16 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: INS Subject: Now that was clever. Message:

Keep it up.

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 14:37:57 (GMT) From: GAC Email: None To: Selene Subject: DOT - COPYRIGHT Message:

By jove, you're onto something here Selene. I seem to recall reading the ancient spiritual manuscript known as the BackwardsGaVita where it was prophesied that a 'rotund young, greedy, lascivious, boy-child' would be born in the twentieth century and would have full ownership of the copyright to the Tilak or was it the Timex.... oh, at any rate he owns the DOT in all the . coms, orgs, nets. Yes, it was even foretold by the ancient Masters that he would one day be Lord of the Internet and would have mighty warriors fight for his rights such as the likes that the world has never before seen. The sons & daughters of Shri Mil lion Bank er, Shri Ha ndley er , Shri Tweed ler, Shri Real McCoy , Shri Pass acot Aro und, Shri She of many Gross Forms, and Shri Jacobs ianite would pounce on anyone that dares infringe upon The Boy Lord of the Internets right to the DOT on any of their web sites. (This would all occur once he dissed the Goddess Mata Ji in a scurrilous lawsuit, having obtained a new found source of power and might as a result of the sublime ministrations on his pre-pubescent phallus compliments of the Goddess Durga.) If their mighty & noble penned threats don't work they will resort to the ancient ritual of SEVA whereby offenders will be rounded up in the middle of the night, trussed and tossed into Shri Hansi's, Seva glider, and cast from the cliffs of the Holy Temple of Seva in Malibu. But have no fear for it is prophesied that the winds shall shift and the glider shall propel right back in the face of the Young Lord as he prepares to fly away in the modern Seva craft known as the Bell Helicopter which has replaced the ancient method of Astral Projection. Now that you have solved the, 'dot in the dot, dot, dot'.... can you solve the mystery of, 'Who put the bop, in the bop-she-wop, she-wop?'

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 18:57:45 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: GAC Subject: let's 'go ask AL'(ice)...... Message:

curiouser and curiouser isn't it? Think I'll add this one to my pages!!

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 15:16:46 (GMT) From: Daneane Email: None To: GAC Subject: DOT - COPYRIGHT Message:

Brilliant and hilarious post GAC. By the way...everytime your initials, I think of a country cable video station, Great American Country...that's probably not what your initials stand for though, right??

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 19:12:25 (GMT) From: GAC Email: None To: Daneane Subject: Thanks ;-) Message:

Hi Daneane, Not quite Great American Country.... How about Good At Chuckling? GAC

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 11:51:22 (GMT) From: jondon Email: None To: Selene Subject: trivia - I gotta KNOW Message:

Pimientos-they get them from the Mortadella.

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 19:15:05 (GMT) From: GAC Email: None To: jondon Subject: trivia - I gotta KNOW Message:

Too funny jondon. That explains the paucity of pimientos in the seventies ..... Just kidding. GAC

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 21:44:46 (GMT) From: jondon Email: None To: GAC Subject: trivia - I gotta KNOW Message:

Not used as much now in the 90's. Have been put in olives for use in Martinis.

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 11:08:39 (GMT) From: TILAK? Email: None To: Selene Subject: tilak?nt Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 09:27:03 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Selene Subject: There are rat's and his tilak pictures online! Message:

Why don't you go and check these ? Some Rat's Pictures online I know they'll definitely send me to jail the next time I'll be going to the US .....

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 18:53:02 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: blaaghhh... stygmata??? Message:

or just a VERY hot day? thanks, I think

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 13:46:50 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: And don't forget the pics of the Gulfstream! Message:

And don't forget the pics of the Gulfstream! here Thanks, JM! (P.S. isn't having that stuff here asking for trouble though?)

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 15:48:09 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: cq Subject: having that stuff here asking for trouble Message:

What's so special about his uniform, or his G4? Do you think he actually wants to hide anything? He's been sending those pictures FOR FREE to all premies giving financial support a few years back!! I understand his crown is very likely kept safe in a locker, and he might be afraid of his brother wanting to steal it ..... but his jet, c'mon!!!!!

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Date: Wed, May 31, 2000 at 17:38:41 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: having that stuff here asking for trouble Message:

He might have sent those pics as a little 'thank-you' to the people who contributed donations to the Gulfstream (how nice of him), but I bet you he still owns the copyright on the pics. Which, J-M (as if I have to remind you,) is how your site got clobbered. BTW, talking of uniforms - do you remember that early picture of him in some kind of military kit? I think it was in the Ally Pally ('73?) Guru Puja Special. Premie though I was at the time, I thought he looked decidedly dodgy - kind of like a cross between a South American dictator and Hitler's little nephew!

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 15:10:45 (GMT) From: Daneane Email: None To: cq Subject: Wots the deal with that uniform?? Message:

Is he doing the Thomas Howell the III deal and wearing cutey lil' outfits for whatever the occasion??? So would he wear a lil' sailor suit on his yacht?? Or maybe a pirate's outfit would be more appropriate?

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 08:55:53 (GMT) From: Tilda Email: None To: Selene Subject: Tilaks??? Message:

what about the black around the eyes? Durga Ji stuff we used to call it.

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 13:44:23 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Tilda Subject: A tilak is the red dot, kohl the eye-shadow (nt) Message:

A tilak is the red dot, kohl the eye-shadow (nt)

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 02:31:32 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Selene Subject: Tiluks? (nt) Message:

mm

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Date: Mon, May 29, 2000 at 20:38:13 (GMT) From: Larkin Email: Larkin@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Everyone Subject: Well I've never kippled before... Message:

but feel like kipling today.... If you can lose your mind when all about you Are losing theirs in search of what is true If you can trust Prem Pal when all men doubt you Cast scorn upon their foolish doubting too, If you can wait and not be tired by waiting, Two hours or more to kiss his lotus feet In spite of dehydration, overheating Just to see him on his golden seat: If you can dream of nothing but your master If you can think there's progress in his game And fail to see your life's become disaster And everybody thinks you're quite insane If you can swear it's simple truth you've spoken And those who can't accept it must be fools, Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken, 'Coz Prem is God, and Prem Pal makes the rules If you can make one heap of all your earnings And blow them on a trip to Amaroo For nothing less will satisfy your yearnings When watch your breath is all you want to do If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew To serve your master till the day he's gone, And so hold on when there is nothing in you Except the Will which says to them: 'Hold on!' If you can in the ashram keep your virtue Where Prem says you may look but mustn't touch If you don't care that loving friends desert you But tell yourself you never liked them much If Prem Pal fills your every waking minute So much you have to say farewell to many His is your life and everything that's in it, And--which is more--you'll be a bleedin' premie !

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Date: Tues, May 30, 2000 at 13:40:35 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Larkin Subject: Encore! You must be Kipling's son, my man. (nt) Message:

Encore! You must be Kipling's son, my man. (nt)

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