Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 15:35:21 (GMT)
From: May 30, 2000 To: Jun 08, 2000 Page: 3 Of: 5


Keith -:- mind and beyond. -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 04:58:18 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- 'Mind' - yes, amazing, but 'beyond..?' -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 01:21:38 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- Darwin, Einstein, scientists -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 18:46:57 (GMT)
__ __ Keith -:- Beyond anger. -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 01:46:14 (GMT)
__ Elaine -:- mind and beyond. -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 20:52:56 (GMT)
__ __ Keith -:- mind and beyond. -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 01:31:39 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- No, Elaine, your disengagement is what's fake -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 21:11:31 (GMT)
__ hamzen -:- I'm sure if Jim could see your evidence of the -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 10:49:56 (GMT)
__ __ Keith -:- evidence ? of who I really am? -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 01:50:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ hamzen -:- tricky agreed, but if someone makes grand claims -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 18:10:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Keith -:- tricky agreed, but if someone makes grand claims -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 22:08:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- tricky agreed, but if someone makes grand claims -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 23:42:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ keith -:- tricky agreed, but if someone makes grand claims -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 06:40:05 (GMT)
__ Joey -:- mind and beyond. -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 05:34:40 (GMT)
__ __ Keith -:- respectability -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 01:54:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joey -:- respectability -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 12:42:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Keith -:- respectability -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 14:45:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- respectability -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 19:31:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Keith -:- legal actions?? -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 21:53:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- legal actions?? -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 22:44:54 (GMT)
__ Lotus Eater -:- mind and beyond. -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 05:22:13 (GMT)
__ __ Keith -:- babies and bathwater -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 01:58:18 (GMT)
__ __ gerry -:- the great relief -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 16:38:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ Elaine -:- Hi gerry -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 20:58:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- Hey Elaine... -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 01:28:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Excuse me.... -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 15:58:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Gerry -:- Excuse me.... -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 16:12:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Michael Klegg -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 16:45:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Michael Klegg: it's Clegg, btw, same person? nt -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 17:17:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Michael Klegg: it's Clegg, btw, same person? nt -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 20:12:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Keith -:- On the run! -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 22:58:53 (GMT)

la-ex -:- idea for addition to EPO -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 04:32:49 (GMT)
__ bb -:- idea for addition to EPO -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 15:54:17 (GMT)

Daneane -:- OT, but on copyrights -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 02:30:26 (GMT)

poet -:- kingdom -:- Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 21:35:47 (GMT)
__ gErRy -:- arrested development? -:- Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 21:58:27 (GMT)
__ __ poet -:- arrested development? -:- Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 22:09:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- arrested development? -:- Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 22:23:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ poet -:- arrested development? -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 01:19:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Well, best of luck to you (nt) -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 15:21:21 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Same question: did he do this to you? -:- Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 21:48:06 (GMT)
__ __ poet -:- Same question: did he do this to you? -:- Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 21:58:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- Uh, Mr Poet, what do you get out of 'knowledge' nt -:- Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 22:02:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ poet -:- Uh, Mr Poet, what do you get out of 'knowledge' nt -:- Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 22:12:55 (GMT)

Jim -:- Deputy Dog's Disguise Dilemna -:- Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 21:17:15 (GMT)
__ U Thunt -:- Deputy Dog's Disguise Dilemna -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 01:21:56 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- What's wrong? Can't you read? -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 01:25:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ U Thunt -:- What's wrong? Editing? Truth Hurts! -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 09:32:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- 'Unchallenged'? So what are YOU doing? -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 12:31:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ U Thunt -:- 'Unchallenged'? So what are YOU doing? -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 13:49:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- What are you talking about? -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 07:51:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ U Thunt -:- ?Who do you think you are Foolin Nigel? -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 14:39:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Thanks, 'U' ... now, about the rest of your post.. -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 15:33:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- You are one weird dude, dude -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 00:53:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ U Thunt -:- It's called the Generation Gap , old fart!(nt) -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 07:37:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- No, try the literacy gap perhaps (nt) -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 15:11:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ U Thunt -:- No, try the literacy gap perhaps (nt) -:- Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 02:18:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- So you're stuck with a cult member, huh? -:- Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 02:51:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ U Thunt (lisping ) -:- What's wrong? Can't you read? -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 08:41:11 (GMT)

AJW -:- Moses had ten... -:- Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 19:39:30 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- Moses had ten... -:- Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 23:15:15 (GMT)
__ __ Marianne -:- Squelching doubt -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 06:10:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- Squelching doubt -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 18:03:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ Elaine -:- Squelching doubt -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 22:45:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- How very supportive! -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 23:19:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Forgive Bill Patterson? -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 01:23:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Forgive Bill Patterson? -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 16:21:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- That's so right -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 19:39:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Even the lilies... -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 10:00:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Even the lilies... -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 15:49:59 (GMT)

jondon -:- Continuation of letter from friend... -:- Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 11:52:36 (GMT)

Zelda -:- Billboard near Boston Program? -:- Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 01:41:31 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Billboard near Boston Program? -:- Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 11:38:12 (GMT)
__ __ Zelda -:- Forum Politics. Does AJWs answer mean No? -:- Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 19:10:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Forum Politics. Does AJWs answer mean No? -:- Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 19:16:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Zelda -:- Forum Politics. Does AJWs answer mean No? -:- Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 21:01:22 (GMT)
__ Zorba -:- Billboard near Boston Program? -:- Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 02:59:49 (GMT)
__ __ Katie -:- Question about DC program? -:- Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 03:24:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ la-ex -:- Question about DC program? -:- Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 21:25:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- Question about DC program? -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 03:38:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Question about DC program? -:- Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 11:46:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ Must See -:- D.C. Program details -:- Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 10:50:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ zzz -:- D.C. Program possibly overbooked -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 21:46:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- Thank you (nt) -:- Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 15:36:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ Zorba -:- Question about DC program? -:- Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 03:35:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- Question about DC program? -:- Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 03:50:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ DeProGram Anand Ji -:- Question about DC program? -:- Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 22:57:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Zelda -:- Who pray tell is Zorba? Greek to me.Premie no dbt. -:- Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 04:19:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Who pray tell is Zorba? not sure -:- Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 15:36:08 (GMT)

Elan Vital -:- An Invitation -:- Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 22:54:26 (GMT)
__ Gail -:- Ya, I'll get right on that! (nt) -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 19:24:18 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Can Someone Attend This..... -:- Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 23:43:05 (GMT)
__ __ Daneane -:- Can Someone Attend This..... -:- Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 00:33:15 (GMT)

Joey -:- AFF News Briefs -:- Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 22:49:46 (GMT)
__ Zelda -:- I'm leary of christian groups unless they sue too. -:- Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 02:03:27 (GMT)
__ __ Joey -:- I'm leary of your misunderstanding, Zelda -:- Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 12:40:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ Zelda -:- I'm leary of your misunderstanding, Zelda -:- Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 21:07:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joey -:- I'm leary of your misunderstanding, Zelda -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 03:15:43 (GMT)

Zelda -:- Ex Looking for links/info Re suing cult leaders -:- Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 19:34:42 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- No, sueing EV for having files on exes! -:- Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 20:52:57 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- I think you are right on. I'm sure they are -:- Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 23:20:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ Zelda -:- Can you get -:- Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 01:34:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Here it is, in French, but who cares! -:- Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 07:36:43 (GMT)
__ __ Daneane -:- But J-M, it's because they LOVE YOU!!!(nt) -:- Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 21:18:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joey -:- Right on Daneane! ;) -:- Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 23:10:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Daneane -:- And he's ALWAYS there for you!!(nt) -:- Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 00:34:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Then IF they really love me, why don't they let me -:- Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 21:32:03 (GMT)

cq -:- The dogma in karma (from inactive thread) -:- Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 17:08:21 (GMT)
__ Elaine -:- The dogma in karma (from inactive thread) -:- Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 23:25:17 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- The dogma in karma (from inactive thread) -:- Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 13:36:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ Elaine -:- The dogma in karma -:- Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 15:21:46 (GMT)

Paul -:- Off to Paris tomorrow and hope to have knowledge -:- Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 15:09:08 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- on parole before the trial, don't worry! -:- Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 15:26:27 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- you mean 'bail' (nt) -:- Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 15:36:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- You don't know European justice, Jim! (nt) -:- Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 17:10:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- yeh, someone's bribed them .... -:- Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 16:07:10 (GMT)

Way -:- Back from New York -:- Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 14:46:29 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Good Addition to the Letter, Way -:- Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 16:48:58 (GMT)
__ __ Way -:- Thanks, Joe, and the weather... -:- Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 17:23:30 (GMT)
__ jondon -:- Back from New York -:- Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 15:14:20 (GMT)
__ __ Way -:- To Jondon -:- Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 15:20:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ Way -:- link attempted -:- Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 17:58:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Helen -:- link attempted -:- Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 13:47:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- link successful! -:- Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 19:03:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Way -:- To Katie -:- Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 20:42:12 (GMT)

Powerman -:- OT-From country that brought you rape-free jeans -:- Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 14:36:14 (GMT)
__ Monmot -:- OT-From country that brought you rape-free jeans -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 17:33:08 (GMT)

Katie -:- a quick happy birthday to... -:- Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 11:32:27 (GMT)
__ Monmot -:- A Day Late and A Dollar Short, but... -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 17:28:47 (GMT)
__ __ Robyn -:- A Day Late and A Dollar Short, but... -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 01:03:30 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek -:- a quick happy birthday to... -:- Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 21:11:24 (GMT)
__ __ Robyn -:- lovely :), thanks -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 09:18:14 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- a quick happy birthday to... -:- Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 23:17:29 (GMT)
__ __ Robyn -:- a quick happy birthday to... -:- Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 03:57:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Gotta chair for 5 dollars (nt) -:- Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 11:51:05 (GMT)
__ Robyn -:- a quick happy birthday to... -:- Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 21:34:51 (GMT)
__ __ Katie -:- Robyn - you deserve... -:- Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 02:54:31 (GMT)
__ Bobby -:- Happy Birthday Robyn! -:- Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 21:13:54 (GMT)
__ __ Robyn -:- Happy Birthday Robyn! -:- Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 21:35:49 (GMT)
__ Helen -:- happy birthday to the beautiful Robyn... -:- Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 20:57:41 (GMT)
__ __ VP -:- Happy Birthday to the wonderful Birthday Goddess.. -:- Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 00:56:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ Robyn -:- Happy Birthday to the wonderful Birthday Goddess.. -:- Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 04:01:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie -:- Happy Birthday controversy -:- Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 01:27:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ VP -:- Happy Birthday controversy -:- Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 18:08:45 (GMT)
__ __ Robyn -:- happy birthday to the beautiful Robyn... -:- Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 21:36:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ Helen -:- The card had music?????(nt) -:- Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 01:20:53 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Happy Birthday Robyn!!! -:- Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 16:44:19 (GMT)
__ __ Robyn -:- Happy Birthday Robyn!!! -:- Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 21:38:44 (GMT)
__ raina -:- here's 2 Robyn's objectivity (NT) -:- Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 14:58:43 (GMT)
__ __ Robyn -:- means a lot to me, thanks raina (NT) -:- Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 21:39:37 (GMT)
__ cq -:- Happy birthday, Birthday Goddess ... -:- Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 12:49:05 (GMT)
__ __ Robyn -:- Happy birthday, Birthday Goddess ... -:- Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 21:41:46 (GMT)
__ ham -:- I second that one big time, hav a good 1 mz ricola -:- Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 11:45:29 (GMT)
__ __ Robyn -:- I second that one big time, hav a good 1 mz ricola -:- Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 21:43:08 (GMT)
__ __ Marianne -:- Happy birthday girlfriend! -:- Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 16:55:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ Robyn -:- Happy birthday girlfriend! -:- Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 21:44:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Gregg -:- Happy birthday girlfriend! -:- Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 02:31:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Oliver -:- Happy birthday Robyn! -:- Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 23:20:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ gErRy -:- goodness gracias, senorita, buenas tardes y -:- Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 00:49:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- ha ha -:- Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 01:48:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- ha ha hahahahaha!!!! :) -:- Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 04:21:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- ha ha hahahahaha!!!! :) -:- Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 12:33:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Zelda -:- Happy Birthday Robyn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! -:- Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 02:11:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Thanks everyone -:- Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 04:24:06 (GMT)


Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 04:58:18 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: mind and beyond.
Message:
The human mind is so amazing. It can and does create mental worlds of every shape to justify its own ends. Jim calls me rubbery. Thankyou, I say. For rubberyness is the very nature of mind when its not constructing rigid certainties. The dimensions of experience more profound than mind are where one must seek certainties that the mind in itself cannot know of but at best can only imagine.
Jim's ideological war is nothing more than a hurt inner child/man desperately trying to construct solid realities out of mind stuff supported by psuedo science. He and 'his' have thrown the babies out with the bathwater. The babies are real. The bathwater was stinky and worthy of exposure as such. The bathwater in part relates to so called spiritual/religious/new age hocus pocus. The babies refer in part to authentic experiences and messages from the divine realms of inspiration, experience and creation.
Jim's foul mouthed hysterionics are like the tantrums of a spoilt child who cannot have his own way.
This forum is needing less typical fanatics than Jim to create any semblence of respectability. Otherwise the attempt to expose the extremes of cultism are greately compromised.
Now wait for the torrent of abuse from the great intellect himself. Or he may just tell me to 'fuck off worm'. OR...?
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Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 01:21:38 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Keith
Subject: 'Mind' - yes, amazing, but 'beyond..?'
Message:
The human mind is so amazing. It can and does create mental worlds of every shape to justify its own ends.

I would say the mind is indeed amazing but that, on the whole, it tries to build accurate models of reality based on first-hand experience, rather than 'justify it's own ends'. Justification is something we do when testing our provisional conclusions. Whether we do this in private or on a web-forum is down to individual style.

And as we mature and learn, we are inevitably forced to give preference to models of reality that actually work and 'fit' our perceived experience. It is my own conviction that if human beings but lived long enough we would all, inevitably, become natural scientists rather than cult members of any persuasion - the desire to find out eventually overcoming the will to believe. Had Methusala really lived for 800 years he would have preceded Darwin and Einstein by three thousand in his understanding of the universe.

I don't believe the mind does construct 'rigid certainties', as you put it, Keith, but builds better approximations of whatever is certain as we go along - just as science creates better approximations at a cultural level.

(BTW: your annoyance with Jim and choice of language when discussing him seems to mitigate the power of your plea for a 'respectable' post-cult dialogue.)


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Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 18:46:57 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Darwin, Einstein, scientists
Message:
Darwin and Einstein, from what I have read, were not philosophical materialists.

Also, consider the following quotes from this web page from a web site promoting the teaching of evolution:

Are Terms like 'Impersonal' and 'Unsupervised' Scientific? A Personal Commentary on Methodological Materialism

The quotes:

... a 1997 poll by Witham and Larson reported in Nature (386:435-436, 1997), claimed that about 40% of American scientists have a belief in a personal God -- and up to another 45% (possibly -- it is unclear because of the way questions were worded) appear to believe in a God, but not a personal one.

I believe from a philosophy of science standpoint that 'impersonal' and 'undirected' are terms that we cannot use in science.

Science attempts to understand and explain the natural world using natural processes/mechanisms, a 'rule' called methodological materialism'. Matter, energy and their interactions are all we use to explain the natural world.

If science is limited to explaining the natural world through natural processes, we are then constrained from making pronouncements about the supernatural world. We can neither say there is, nor say that there is not, a God or any other omnipotent power. ... Statements about whether God exists, or interferes in the world, are just plain outside of our job description as scientists, regardless of our personal theistic or
nontheistic views.

If on the other hand, religion makes a fact claim about the natural world, science often can say something about it. But we need to recognize when a statement is something science can comment upon and when it is outside of science.

Philosophical materialism is another type of materialism that is regularly confused with it. Philosophical materialism goes beyond the materialist supposition that we can understand the natural world using matter, energy, and their interactions to make the philosophical claim that in fact, matter and energy are all there are; there is no supernatural. I have made no secret of the fact that this is my personal belief, but I have strongly advocated to my fellow scientists who share this persuasion that they distinguish when they are wearing their scientist hats and
when they are wearing their philosopher hats.

I especially encourage scientists who like myself are not believers, to exercise care when they talk about and teach evolution so that this important tenet of science is not erroneously over-extended to conclusions about material reality.

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Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 01:46:14 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Beyond anger.
Message:
Points taken, Nigel. I did not mean to suggest that we all or everyone who posts on this forum uses the mind to justify their ends. It was addressed to the types who do. Or even that particular tendency. I agree with you. The nobler part of the human condition seems to be testing ideas against perceived realities. And indeed we are all natural scientists in that sense. And my mitigating responses to Jim does have a hypocritical thread involved. I admit that. It is like my need to have an angry outburst to my son. It happens. It's not good. It's
a bit like fighting swords with swords. But I'm not anywhere near a perfect example of my nobler aspirations and realisations. And sometimes it even feels right and good to fight back. It's a release. Public but feels right anyway. But I do doubt this as well. Because I too was brought up to be a good polite boy, regardless of how others treated me. Your posts get me thinking constructively. Thanks.
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Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 20:52:56 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: mind and beyond.
Message:
Fuck off, Keith and die!!!

Keith that wasn't real....neither are the rantings of anyone here that is cruel, insensitive,acting out, or mean.

They can't hurt you - they are hurt souls that for some reason need to lash out at others. Be grateful you're not in traffic with them.

How did that feel when you thought the first sentence was real???
I'm curious.
I used to feel some sort of sting in my chest or gut area ----for a minute....now I laugh. I see a little child with a nasty look on his/her face at the playground - and feel the compassion and smiling love of a mom.
How hurt they are is indeed a shame ---but,part of the growing process.

Sandbox to boardroom to bedroom --- so many lessons.

Don't ever let it get to you. You're a good person, even if bullies get mean bec you don't agree with them.

Elaine

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Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 01:31:39 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: mind and beyond.
Message:
Thanks Elaine. Insightful and creative. I understand. All this angry,hurt stuff is not the REAL thing. Well, it is real, but not the REAL CORE EXPERIENCE which is loving,caring,empathetic,flexible,humourous,inspired,trusting and forgiving.
I know that 'they' cannot hurt me or you. It saddens me. It is one thing to get hurt. But a sad thing to hold onto it. And I am appreciative that I'm not in that boat. I do sail on other seas. As obviously you do to. And that fact alone triggers such negative responses in 'them'. This division between totally deluded premies and supposedly angry, bitter ex-premies is false; a complete illusion perpetrated by extremists in both camps.
Ex-cultists who become cultish are so blind to their hypocracy.
How did I feel when I thought your first sentence was for real? A
little shocked. After all, this was not Jim's response. But, what a pleasant surprise it was when I realised your laterally-inclined sense of comic relief,not to mention your delightful rubberiness. Yes, a sting in the chest. Elaine, I had a years apprenticeship on this forum until I lost use of my computer about a year and a bit ago. I am a single parent now, and I can understand what you say about the growing process . no gain without some pain,eh? Take care, Keith.
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Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 21:11:31 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: No, Elaine, your disengagement is what's fake
Message:
Elaine,

Anyone can turn off their minds, smile and say 'so what?' And that appears to be exactly what you're doing here. For instance, you make a point of agreeing with Pman that Maharaji's a destructive cult leader. Of course that flies in the face of so much else you've posted here. But, there you go -- there's Elaine showing off how refreshingly individualistic she is! Maharaji's a dangerous cult leader? Hey, why not, eh?

Problem is, of course, that you talk out of both sides of your mouth. The other day you played this stupid cat and mouse game, encouraging your fellow premie, O, who was arguing, quite preposterously, that Maharaji never tried to stifle our thought process. Then you implied that you weren't necessarily doing that. Then you laughed that indeed you were, ha ha ha!

Okay, take you at face value then. If you really believe that bullshit, that Maharaji did not discourage doubt and thus unfettered thought and analysis, then your agreement with Pman makes no sense. Indeed, it's absurd.

But do you care? Of course not. You're just playing with words here. You stand for nothing but how much fun it is to type. In fact, you'll probably just laugh this post off with some typical inconsequential digression. You're as fake as they come, Elaine.

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Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 10:49:56 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: I'm sure if Jim could see your evidence of the
Message:
authenticity of your experiences, which enables such belief systems to be constructed, he would be more than happy to oblige,

but you always claim for such big stakes and expect people to agree with you without proof of your claims

rather odd behaviour in an anti-guru environment

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Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 01:50:36 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: evidence ? of who I really am?
Message:
impossible hamzen. How is it possible to prove anything over the internet. For that Jim and I would surely have to spend real time together. Most unlikely!
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Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 18:10:52 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: tricky agreed, but if someone makes grand claims
Message:
which has implications for others too, if you're right, and especially bearing in mind why we're here then you can't be surprized at peoples reactions.

If you showed some humility around this topic area maybe it wouldn't be seen as so inflamatory, 'I believe' instead of....,
like you I'm assuming, I've had strong regular mind blowing experiences that made me wonder if.... but have ebded up at different conclusions, so then you're down to probabilities, and on that score like any other mystic, the odds don't look good...

Blah de blah

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Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 22:08:28 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: tricky agreed, but if someone makes grand claims
Message:
It is only to the sceptical mind that 'grand claims' exist. But I do respect a critical mind as long as it is open. You seem somewhat open-minded to me. But not suffering fools easily. Fair enough. Me neither. But Hamzen, we are still in a conundrum here. What I saidc about Jim applies to you too. We would need to spend some real time together. And even then how can any individual qualify subjective experience to another? And then interpretation of experience further complicates the situation.
But none of this is really as important as it sounds. Because the inner experience and interpretation are in the end part of ones personal reality and what really really matters is deeper than that. Deeper and simpler. The mystical for me is also the most simple and in a sense 'ordinary'. It is ,as someone else described, the way things really are when we remove the blinkers.
Intellectual blinkers are the worst ones I feel. Mind can be either a great friend or a great enemy. Too abstract? Well, come and visit me. Drink plenty tea with me.
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Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 23:42:38 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: tricky agreed, but if someone makes grand claims
Message:
Surely all you're talking then is 'be here now',
ie not forgetting you're alive,
instead of drifting/dreamwalking through life

so why in most instances do non-believers seemingly access this aliveness in their own way just as much as believers?

Proof at the level you're talking about, we both know is impossible, all I was asking for was some moderation instead of 'this is the truth',
a bit fundamentalist preacher mode for me

but no big deal

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 06:40:05 (GMT)
From: keith
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: tricky agreed, but if someone makes grand claims
Message:
No big deal. Good. I'm a bit preachy at times and a bit peachy other times. More work ahead. Cheers to you hamzen.
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Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 05:34:40 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: mind and beyond.
Message:
This forum is needing less typical fanatics than Jim to create any semblence of respectability.

Interesting statement, Keith. But tell me this. Is the reason why m and his lawyers have taken legal measures against various web sites of ex-premies, that he didn't find them 'respectable' enough?

And is effective censorship of your opponents one of those 'authentic experiences and messages from the divine realms of inspiration, experience and creation ' ??

Just wondering :)

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Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 01:54:35 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: respectability
Message:
Joey, I have no idea or knowledge about M's attempt to censor ex's. But I do have first experience of how ex's try to censor those who they object to beyond a certain point. This forum is not squeaky clean in this respect.
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Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 12:42:16 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: respectability
Message:
Joey, I have no idea or knowledge about M's attempt to censor ex's.

There have been several threads about it. Hard to believe that you can spend some time here these days and NOT know about it.
In any case, now you do know.
Hopefully next time you won't be so evasive in dealing with the issues presented to you. That would do wonders for your own 'respectability'.

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Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 14:45:59 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: respectability
Message:
How have I been evasive? And I only selectively read the threads. I am not so interested anyway in Maharaji as such. More the deeper issues that he represents. Like the roles we humans play out and what they imply. And as far as respectability is concerned, I wouldn't bend over backwards to gain it. Because I am inwardly secure enough to not need it. I 'feel' respectable.
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Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 19:31:28 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: respectability
Message:
Ok, so I'll try again.

Maharaji has begun to take legal steps against some of the websites run by his opposing ex-premies.

What kind of 'deeper issue' is m representing for you in these kind of actions? What is the role that he's playing out here, and what does it imply FOR YOU, Keith?

Without bending over for respectability, and without being evasive, can you answer the question?

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Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 21:53:29 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: legal actions??
Message:
We getting crossed lines here Joey. Your question is fair enough but I have not been interested up to now with what Maharaji is doing in regards to legal steps against premies.
I've been out of circulation for over a year and have just re-joined this forum. I haven't the time to read many threads. And I haven't got a clue about what's happening. Perhaps you could give me a brief outline. What's the scenario?
My post above was about my interest here in general.
In about a week I'll have unlimited time on the net and more time hopefully to take advantage of it.
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Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 22:44:54 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: legal actions??
Message:
We getting crossed lines here Joey. Your question is fair enough but I have not been interested up to now with what Maharaji is doing in regards to legal steps against premies

You're right Keith. This just ain't working.

In about a week I'll have unlimited time on the net and more time hopefully to take advantage of it.

No problem. I'll let you catch up, and whenever you feel like answering the question (that is, if you do), please feel free.

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Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 05:22:13 (GMT)
From: Lotus Eater
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: mind and beyond.
Message:
I kinda agreed with a lot of what you said, but I don't see any evidence that you are actually practising what you are preaching, ie are you attempting to sort out the baby from the bathwater?

On the subject of rubberiness, I am finding it quite a treat to exercise my mind a bit, though I know what you mean about being able to convince oneself that night is day and vice versa, we are all capable of that, imo. LE

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Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 01:58:18 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Lotus Eater
Subject: babies and bathwater
Message:
I am not here to prove anything. I am here to try and express myself as honestly as I can. If I fail to live up to my own highest standards then I view this as my great challenge to improve myself. Can anyone claim otherwise?
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Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 16:38:11 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Lotus Eater
Subject: the great relief
Message:
I don't have cosmic spiritual experiences. I used to think I wanted them, but I don't anymore. For me, 'being spiritual' is merely accepting things as they are, not as I want them to be. 'What is-as it is,' an idea I copped from Michael Klegg former premie, new age teacher aka Satyam Nadeen.

It's a concept of mind, fer sure, but if it really kicks in and you start living it and stop resisting life, things get easier. And it's one of those things which get better over time. Maybe this is just this week's hobby horse, I don't know. We'll see.

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Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 20:58:24 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Hi gerry
Message:
Oh boy - you knew Michael Klegg?

(My response is prob in inactive now to the 5 commandment thing)

I really don't want to know who you are - but I guess you were at COLL?

Elaine

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Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 01:28:53 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: glyng@techline.com
To: Elaine
Subject: Hey Elaine...
Message:
I met Michael Klegg last year. Had a spot of tea and listened to his talk. Nice man, wrote a remarkable book. I'm REALLY interested on your take on him or anything you can tell me about him. No I wasn't at COLL. I've heard references to it but never understood what it was. Can you fill me in?
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Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 15:58:30 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Excuse me....
Message:
Wait a minute....

I had heard YEARS ago that Michael Klegg -----get this -----
committed suicide.
This is just too, too much. Oh, the premie gossip.

Ok, now I have to know where did you see him - what the hell is he doing now exactly. Pls, fill me in.What book?

Sigh, the shock of it all...

City of Love and Light - dreamchild of Larry Bernstein (architect) and Michael - the business end.
Michael - ex seminarian - very enthusiastic and bright.Nice guy. Pretty ex-wife. Knowing him he's probably still close with her.
COLL - first in Trinity,TX - then moved to San Antonio - many diff apt complexes --- then three floors of the Gunter Hotel in downtown in '74-'77?

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Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 16:12:49 (GMT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Excuse me....
Message:
Michael got into MDMA (Ecstasy) in a big way when it was still legal in the states. He made a bundle selling it and moved his operation offshore when it was made illegal. He got busted and spent two years in a Dade County (Miami) hellhole of a jail before being sent to a federal institution. While in the jail, he had an 'awakening' of sorts and wrote his book while still incarcerated.

It's a long story and his book and website are here: Michael

I understand he has a new book out now.

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Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 16:45:25 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Michael Klegg
Message:
Oh, this is just all too much.

For a person who I thought was DEAD!

Elaine

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Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 17:17:38 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Michael Klegg: it's Clegg, btw, same person? nt
Message:
my mistake
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Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 20:12:14 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Michael Klegg: it's Clegg, btw, same person? nt
Message:
Yes, I saw his happy little face on his website in that chair - did you see it? He's very cute. Very happy guy.Just a little receding hairline - but looks the same.

He always knew how to make the bucks. He's got something going now it seems. I love the guy.Very happy he's around having fun.

Yeah, Clegg actually looks more right.

Elaine

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Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 22:58:53 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: everyone`
Subject: On the run!
Message:
Interesting responses. I don't have time right now to respond to you all individually . But I will later.
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Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 04:32:49 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: idea for addition to EPO
Message:
First of all, I want to congratulate the forum administrators on the new look of the EPO site.I usually just go to the forum,not through the opening page, but was very impressed with the new format-I think it makes it very accessible to new people checking it out for the first time, and gives a number of options to them.
I have a suggestion for an addition to the EPO site.
It could be called 'Awakenings' or something similar.It would not compete with 'Journeys', which I think is excellent and very interesting and helpful reading.
This would be a few paragraphs written by each poster, detailing how they came to see through the guru and the organization.What were the specific things you saw and felt,what were the doubts you just couldn't reconcile,how things just didn't add up, etc.
I think many people have mentioned this stuff in their posts, but I don't think it has been collected and put in one place.If it was, it might prove to be a very powerful tool to help new people see that their perceptions were accurate and their doubts were shared by many..
Any comments?...
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Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 15:54:17 (GMT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: idea for addition to EPO
Message:
I think it would be a good idea.
A nutshell version available easy to the first time viewer is
going to be helpful to the new site readers that are about to come.
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Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 02:30:26 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: OT, but on copyrights
Message:
I admit, I side with Metallica...but this thing by the Offspring cracked me up.

'Napster Tells Offspring To Stop Selling Bootleg
Merchandise

Contributing Editor Richard B. Simon reports

Napster Inc., makers of controversial MP3 file-sharing software,
slapped pop-punk band the Offspring with a legal order Friday (June
2) to stop selling merchandise imprinted with the Napster logo, a
source close to the band confirmed.

A day earlier, another source in the Offspring camp said that if
Napster issued a cease and desist order, it would 'expose a huge hypocrisy.'

Napster Inc. is embroiled in a series of lawsuits — filed by hard-rockers Metallica,
rapper Dr. Dre and the Recording Industry Association of America — that claim the
company is infringing on artists' copyrights by allowing users to freely trade
near-CD-quality MP3 files of their work without permission.

The Offspring, who have praised Napster as a promotional tool for connecting fans
with music, began selling T-shirts, hats and stickers emblazoned with the Napster
logo via their Web site (www.offspring.com) on Wednesday without asking the San
Mateo, Calif., company's permission.

The Napster name and logo are trademarks owned by the company, and may not be used by
other parties, according to the Napster Web site (www.napster.com).

'It's all fair,' an Offspring source said on Thursday. 'We've already said you guys
[can use] our stuff — we're gonna do yours, too. You shouldn't have any problem with
that, should you?'

At press time, Napster spokesperson Tracy Mlakar had no information on the cease and
desist order and could not comment.'

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Date: Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 21:35:47 (GMT)
From: poet
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: kingdom
Message:
Once I lived in kingdom. There was a good king.Once I lived in a kingdom.There was a bad king.Once I lived in a ... . There was a good... . Once I lived in a ... . There was a bad ... .

This world has had and will always have the good and the bad.
Once there was a boy who became a king. He lives his life that way. He calls himself' The Great King.' 'Maha-Raj-I '.

I do not know much about kingdoms,but I know a boy who became a king. 'Born into it' is the way he recently described it. I guess
history will tell if his kingdom is good or bad. In this world we live in ,it is always going to be a mix of the good and the bad. This King has made his Kingdom. Both good and bad. This is the way history has always been. The problem is that we are now just learning this about real life and real kingdoms.

I think that the best way to make sense of all this is really to
just follow the wisdom of our own lives. Where ever it may lead us.

In or out of the kingdom the world can be a dangerous place. It is good that people are informed.

This boy who became a man makes no secret about his being called a 'Great King'. People need to recognize what it means. The world is full of secrets. Where ever you find yourself there you are.
For many, who they are is still a secret.Are we all kings? Yes.Is the kingdom within? Yes. This boy lives his both within and without.So,watch out for what making a kingdom is all about.Signing out. No doubt.

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Date: Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 21:58:27 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: poet
Subject: arrested development?
Message:
Where knowledge has brought this poor fellow: a state of semi-literacy. It's really a shame and sorta sad to see.

I do not know much about kingdoms,but I know a boy who became a king. 'Born into it' is the way he recently described it.

I suppose this 'king' is Prem Rawat. Self proclaimed, of course. It's called egomania.

This King has made his Kingdom. Both good and bad. This is the way history has always been. The problem is that we are now just learning this about real life and real kingdoms.

Well, 'poet' maybe you are just 'awakening' to this idea, but most adults understand this. There is bad and good in the world. A major discovery.

I think that the best way to make sense of all this is really to just follow the wisdom of our own lives. Where ever it may lead us.

Ummm, ok. Maybe this is poetic justice, but are you really saying anything here?

In or out of the kingdom the world can be a dangerous place. It is good that people are informed.

Whatever. What 'kingdom are you talking about?

This boy who became a man makes no secret about his being called a 'Great King'. People need to recognize what it means. The world is full of secrets. Where ever you find yourself there you are.

Pray tell us what it means. Love the little bumper sticker aphorism tagged onto the end of this 'paragraph.' Nice touch.

For many, who they are is still a secret.Are we all kings? Yes.Is the kingdom within? Yes. This boy lives his both within and without.So,watch out for what making a kingdom is all about.Signing out. No doubt.

Gawd, this is SO POETIC !!! It even rhymes. Sorta. Tell me, what is 'making a kingdom' all about? Deceiving people and enriching oneself on other peoples' misery and yearning like the vulture Prem Rawat does?

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Date: Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 22:09:23 (GMT)
From: poet
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: arrested development?
Message:
Yes, as you say it is. Arrested development is a true take on my life.And in case you missed it ,'yes' is to your last ?.
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Date: Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 22:23:55 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: poet
Subject: arrested development?
Message:
Ok, arrested development is a correct take on your life. To what do you attribute this sad state of affairs? Do you think you have the ability and/or the opportunity to reverse this?

I'm not trying to beat up on you, I am really curious.

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Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 01:19:33 (GMT)
From: poet
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: arrested development?
Message:
Sad is not always so sad.Although most of my affairs are. And yes,
I am able and opportuning myself of reversal. The attribution is of my childhood.
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Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 15:21:21 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: poet
Subject: Well, best of luck to you (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 21:48:06 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: poet
Subject: Same question: did he do this to you?
Message:
I'm so sorry.
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Date: Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 21:58:49 (GMT)
From: poet
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Same question: did he do this to you?
Message:
no. I was 'done to' long before I met the boy.
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Date: Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 22:02:56 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: poet
Subject: Uh, Mr Poet, what do you get out of 'knowledge' nt
Message:
no text
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Date: Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 22:12:55 (GMT)
From: poet
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Uh, Mr Poet, what do you get out of 'knowledge' nt
Message:
The same thing every one else does.A little,a lot, nothing much,
I forgot.
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Date: Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 21:17:15 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Deputy Dog's Disguise Dilemna
Message:
In a thread below, the same Deputy Dog that has been trying to persuade us for so many months now that he is his own man and not at all subject to the pressures of this cult ('cult? What cult?'), explained why he's afraid to post under his own name:

I choose to keep my identity secret because M has asked people not to visit this site and I don't want my family members embarrassed at programs.

I asked him if he wasn't ashamed to cower before the cult like this but he wouldn't answer.

Really, if you think about it, what possible 'embarrassment' is Dog envisioning?

Premie: So, I see that your husband, [insert real name here], has been posting on the ex page.....

Dog wife: Well, um, yeah, I guess he has. I mean, I never go there myself but ...

Premie: But you know ..

Dog wife: I mean he tells me that he only posts positive things about Maharaji and Knowledge.

Premie: Yes, well maybe he does but you know Maharaji doesn't want anyone talking about him there and he really doesn't want premies even visiting the site.

Dog wife: Well, this is so embarrassing. I don't know what to say. Dog is usually so obedient, you know? Maybe he doesn't realize that that's what Maharaji wants.

Premie: No, I'm afraid he does. See, now that we know who he is we've gone back and read a number of his posts where he mentions Maharaji's wishes about this. In fact, he even said that that's why he was posting under a false name. He's known all along that Maharaji doesn't like it.

Dog wife: [turning beet red] Well, I really don't know what to say. This is so embarrassing. Like I said, Dog is usually so obedient. Would you like me to talk to him?

Premie: Yes, I think you should. And yes, this must be embarrassing for you. I'm sorry to drag you into this. Really. But this just won't do. If Maharaji's asked for this you and I both know it would be wrong for Dog to do otherwise. But then that's the problem, isn't it? See, maybe you should read some of his posts. He goes so far in saying that he doesn't answer to anyone. Is that the kind of thing he tells you? That he doesn't feel like he has to obey Maharaji?

Dog wife: Oh this is so embarrassing now! I don't know what to say! Oh me, oh my!


Give me a fucking break! Dog, you're talking out of both sides of your mouth on this one. Either you answer to your own conscience, in which case, as you've demonstrated in abundance, you think there's nothing wrong with posting here, or you're subservient to your B>Master and are only posting here like a sneaky servant defying house rules. If the latter, then you are definitely a coward, willing to do an act but not man enough to do it under your own name. Independent enough to speak your mind so long as no one knows it's you.

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Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 01:21:56 (GMT)
From: U Thunt
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Deputy Dog's Disguise Dilemna
Message:
I see no sensible reason for anone to reveal their identity here or on any other chat/forum pages. And that my wise friend is purely from a legal and personal security postion .Ciao ,

edited

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Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 01:25:52 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: U Thunt
Subject: What's wrong? Can't you read?
Message:
Dog gave his reason for posting anonymous and it's nothing like the excuses you've offered. He's anonymous not because of me (after all, I know who he is). He's anonymous because he's being 'bad' coming here and he doesn't want his loved ones to bear the brunt of cult criticism for acting out of line. Right, Dog?
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Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 09:32:19 (GMT)
From: U Thunt
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What's wrong? Editing? Truth Hurts!
Message:
Why do you practise the policies of propaganda here ? Why is it easy for Jim to belittle abuse and subjugate unchalleged? Even handed? I don't think so!
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Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 12:31:48 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: U Thunt
Subject: 'Unchallenged'? So what are YOU doing?
Message:
Don't be so absurd, Prem. Your typewriter keyboard is as deadly a weapon as anyone else's and you are as free to post the premie party line as any ex is to refute it.
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Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 13:49:29 (GMT)
From: U Thunt
Email: You C?
To: Nigel
Subject: 'Unchallenged'? So what are YOU doing?
Message:
I am not a premie. I know one , even sleep with one. Give over Nigel , you are just another little spotty faced English Ted Patrick.You are not even handed and censor to maintain a profile you deem acceptable. Problem is you are still defaulting to Control practices you learn't along the way and in doing so you fail to notice that you are well out of order with the General Public. Don't bother throwing back the party line and the GP response to 'him' because I am talking about your peculiar little site and it's more obvious nuances.The reason you can't get the mainstream attention you so dramatically crave is because you are A1 certified Whacko...Be told!
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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 07:51:25 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Abusive non-entity
Subject: What are you talking about?
Message:
And who the fuck is Ted Patrick?
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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 14:39:34 (GMT)
From: U Thunt
Email: U C???
To: Nigel
Subject: ?Who do you think you are Foolin Nigel?
Message:
Look it up on the Net. I reckon Jim may well be his Love-child!
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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 15:33:31 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: U Thunt
Subject: Thanks, 'U' ... now, about the rest of your post..
Message:
I am not a premie.

It is hard to imagine a person who was never a premie getting such a bug up his ass over the opinions of a bunch of ex-cult members - so much so you just have to keep logging in and joining in on a forum that should hold little interest for you.

I know one , even sleep with one.

Ah, so that's it! You're going print out this thread later, and show it to Mrs Thunt ('Here you are sweetheart... Look what I did for Maharaji'.) How sweet!

Give over Nigel , you are just another little spotty faced English Ted Patrick.

Above average height and no spots, but English, certainly. Why do you resort to personal abuse of somebody you know nothing about? I think this says more about your personal insecurities than you would care to acknowledge.

You are not even handed and censor to maintain a profile you deem acceptable. Problem is you are still defaulting to Control practices you learn't along the way and in doing so you fail to notice that you are well out of order with the General Public.

If you have had posts censored, U Thunt, it was nothing to do with me. This is not my site, as you seem to imagine - I just post here, same as you. As I understand it, posts are only edited if their content contains threats, illegible garbage or otherwise offensive material. Mel Bourne has posted reams without once getting edited out - as have most premies here - so I guess it can't be that difficult, unless, of course, you are trying to get censored so you can bleat about it afterwards...

Don't bother throwing back the party line and the GP response to 'him' because I am talking about your peculiar little site and it's more obvious nuances.

Sorry, U, I don't talk Martian.

The reason you can't get the mainstream attention you so dramatically crave is because you are A1 certified Whacko...Be told!

Do you think if was looking for mainstream attention I would do it on the web-board for ex-members of a funny-little backwater cult that the world doesn't give a flying fuck about? Anyway, I am not the issue, nor the point of this forum.

What does Mrs Thunt think?

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 00:53:17 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: U Thunt
Subject: You are one weird dude, dude
Message:
What language are you talking? Is it from some sort of computer game or something?
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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 07:37:34 (GMT)
From: U Thunt
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: It's called the Generation Gap , old fart!(nt)
Message:
awwrhrd
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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 15:11:23 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: U Thunt
Subject: No, try the literacy gap perhaps (nt)
Message:
nnnnn
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Date: Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 02:18:27 (GMT)
From: U Thunt
Email: U R!
To: Jim
Subject: No, try the literacy gap perhaps (nt)
Message:
One Man's literacy gap is anothers poetry- and you are no poet Mr Low life cheap Defender. Love to see you in a civil court...you'd be rolled. Too much spleen , too much emotion.. Have to work for your money wouldn't you Mr Public Defender!
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Date: Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 02:51:59 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: U Thunt
Subject: So you're stuck with a cult member, huh?
Message:
Talk about splenetic! Listen, dude, I feel for you. You're dumb enough to get stuck in bed with a Maharaji cult member. What do you guys talk about anyway? When you're going to eventually join the cult? How it's going to be so so good for your relationship when you finally have that 'real love'? You're stuck and you're frustrated. Trying to make the most of a pitiful situation. Ha! Serves you right, asshole!
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Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 08:41:11 (GMT)
From: U Thunt (lisping )
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What's wrong? Can't you read?
Message:
Still doesn't matter

edited

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Date: Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 19:39:30 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Moses had ten...
Message:
In a thread down below, there was some debate about if you were discouraged from 'doubting' if you were a premie. This reminded me of Maharaji's 'Five Commandments', which were printed out and stuck on the wall in the early 70s. I hope I've got them in the right order.

1. Don't put off until tomorrow what you can do today.

2. Constantly meditate and remember holy name.

3. Leave no room for doubt in your mind.

4. Never delay in attending satsang.

5. Always have faith in god.

I remember being told, 'Moses had ten, Maharaji only needs five.'

Apparently there were originally ten, like in the Old Testament. Maharaji was at Baskin and Robbins one night, and a laser beam came out of the sky and wrote five commandments on the side of his 'Rocky Road' sundae, and five on his brother Raja-Ji's 'English Caramel'. Maharaji wrote his five down on a napkin, but his brother ate the other five before anyone could stop him.

The five commandments fell from popularity in the 'Great Wave of Rationalisation, in 76, when Maharaji dabbled with the idea of becoming a 'Humanitarian World Leader', but in the end, decided he'd stick with being 'The Perfect Master of Our Age' instead. (I think the hours were better.)

Anyway, the good old 'Five Commandments' drifted down into that garbage dump of mouldy old concepts, that live down in the cellar. Maharaji never actually came out and said, 'You know those Five Commandments I gave you when I was young and daft? Well forget them OK. They were just part of this old, 'Harry Krishna trip' that my dad laid on me...Yeah...the ashrams too...a big mistake. Sorry OK?'

As I said to O, it's a good job they weren't written in stone.

Anth the don't put off until tomorrow what you can get someone else to do.

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Date: Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 23:15:15 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Moses had ten...
Message:
You know, I should have wondered about this 'path' when I got the Commandment 'Never Leave Room for Doubt in Your Mind,' but once you give that commandment credence, it's too late, I guess. And commandment number five, about God...I never heard much or thought much about God while in the cult, so that one was weird. And number one, the anti-procrastination one...I never got that one either. I've always been a put-it-off kind of guy, and up until a few years ago felt bad about it. Now I realize that things get done this way, so I just procrastinate away, guilt-free.

The only commandment I liked and understood was 'Always meditate etc.' and now that one's history, too. Meditate an hour, no more or less is the party line now, right? so if you catch yourself meditating at the busstop, what, squelch it, like we used to squelch doubt?

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Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 06:10:28 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Gregg and Anth
Subject: Squelching doubt
Message:
Gregg & Anth: I have come to the conclusion that the commandment 'Never leave room for doubt in your mind' was the most insidious of all of M's and DLM's directives of that era. That commandment was used to undermine all our rational questions about the hypocrisy we observed, or the incongruities we perceived. It was dredged up to justify the wealth that M and his family accumulated from premie slave labor. It was used by deranged ashram officials to justify their misbegotten decision-making. It was invoked repeatedly after the debacle of Millennium '73 in Houston. When our hearts and our own sense of fairness questioned M's behavior or that of those in positions of power in DLM, we were told we were in our minds when we voiced those fears.

I have told this story many times on this site, but I am going to do it again in this context, because it is an important cautionary tale. When I lived in the ashram in 1973 in Kalamazoo, Michigan, I was 17. Earlier that year, my father had committed suicide. I went to Houston. Bill Patterson was sent to Kalamazoo to be the community coordinator -- then called General Secretary -- in early December. When Christmas came, Bill told us that anyone who went home to see their family would be kicked out of the ashram. Most of the people in that ashram had family nearby. I had 4 older brothers, but all lived thousands of miles away. My mother was going to be home alone for the first time in her life, right after my father's suicide. I pleaded with Bill to let me go home -- only a few minutes away -- to be with my mother. He refused. I did not go, because I did not want to be kicked out of the ashram. It broke my heart.

My mother died of cancer six years later. I am still haunted by having failed her at that time.

I was told not to doubt why it was important for me to stay in the ashram that day. I knew it was wrong, but I was so fearful of the repercussions from the Lord of the Universe, that I ignored my instincts. I should have heeded my doubts on that day.

Marianne

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 18:03:50 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Marianne
Subject: Squelching doubt
Message:
Hi Marianne,

Thanks for posting this personal memory again. As Jim said, Bill Patterson didn't happen in a vacuum and - more's the pity - such cruel and petty-minded tests of cult allegiance were replicated the world over (as we have discussed off-forum). The fake Master instructed his mahatamas, set the agendas and wrote the ashram rulebook and is thereby accountable for every act of appalling insensitivity carried out in his name.

And, as I always say, never forgive anyone who hasn't at least asked for forgiveness - oh, and never trust a therapist unless they give refunds.

(Hey, when you gonna call?)

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Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 22:45:29 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Squelching doubt
Message:
Marianne,
Having had several deaths in my family I think I can empathize more than the next person who has not had a loss in their family. (And there are still some out there.)

Yes,you should have heeded your doubts that day....but you were young. We were all young once. I hope you know that your mom knows. She understands and forgives. You won't make that mistake again.She knows that.

Have you talked to your mom's spirit. It would make you feel so good. It's all part of the healing.

We have to learn to forgive ourselves so we can move on.

I would be almost positive that Bill has also squirmed a few times thinking about many of his mistakes. If you doubt that - try to contact him for your own healing.
In therapy you can do alot of techniques - like bunching a pillow - visualizing gunning Bill down - for example - or visualizing talking w/ him and forgiving him.

This was to you, Marianne - and it is totally none of my business - if Jim or someone wants to tell me off- so be it -or if you want to ---but my intention was to help.

I've had 3 glasses of wine so don't be too intense.

I also was told in 74 not to visit my family --I left the next day. When I came back - with no communication for 2 weeks -I had been moved into a 'master suite'.

Most of what I said could sound to one person as pretentious bull and another as just someone trying to help. I know.

I shouldn't post it - but here goes.
Elaine

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Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 23:19:43 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: How very supportive!
Message:
In therapy you can do alot of techniques - like bunching a pillow - visualizing gunning Bill down - for example - or visualizing talking w/ him and forgiving him.

Forgetting someone, Elaine? You know, that big bad Bill Patterson didn't arise in a vaccuum, did he? But still, I'm being ungenerous, I guess. That was very supportive for you to assure Marianne that she should have listened to her doubts that day. But, yes, as you say, she was young......

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Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 01:23:22 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Forgive Bill Patterson?
Message:
Elaine: Jim is a very dear friend of mine. He and other exes have often risen to my defense and aid when premies have made insensitive posts about this incident. I am grateful for their understanding and empathy every time it is expressed. Not being with my mother on Christmas is one of the most regrettable things I have ever done in my life.

I don't perceive your post as being completely insensitive, Elaine. I pay attention to what is said on this site, including posts you have made. But believe me, I have devoted lots of time sorting out what happened that day in 1973 and I am still not in the mood to forgive Bill Patterson. I think that he ought to be the one seeking me out and asking my forgiveness. Bill Patterson and Maharaji forced me to choose between my devotion to Maharaji and my desire to comfort my mother, who grieved alone for her suicide husband that Christmas day. Demanding that of me was the most insensitive and spiritually greedy act Rotwat and Bill could possibly have committed. I may have been young, but they were older and should have been more responsible about dealing with the situation. I capitulated, because I wasn't supposed to leave doubt in my mind. I may have been young, as you said, but I knew better and did not follow my instincts. This incident is just one example of how Rotwat made us ignore the reality of what the cult was doing to us and our families.

Marianne

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Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 16:21:17 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Forgive Bill Patterson?
Message:
Oh - I totally agree - Bill, (if I can say the word even) 'should' ask for your forgiveness.
Knowing him - I can bet he would - -he's a good, good person .(Good doesn't mean 'not-stupid'). That's why I said - he's probably squirming at the thought of many things he did.

We can never rush things - we forgive when ready. We can't forgive when still feeling the depths of the pain as a result of an action by another.

Oh, I know all about not forgiving. (And having people tell me how I must forgive for my own spiritual growth and how 'It only hurts yourself.') It's not crap - but it sure feels like it when they're saying it and I'm feeling completely justified and righteous about my anger and pain and dreams of arson.

Having been in therapy, if I had said your sentence about Bill and M 'forcing me'to choose... any one of my therapists over the yrs would have stopped my sentence immediately and said w/ raised eyebrow, 'Forced,Elaine?'. Oh, therapy can be so exasperating. But, it has taught me to watch giving my power to anyone else. And to ask the ques - does anyone have power over me and can I blame anyone else but me.

Last night I had dinner w/ friends - I wasn't intending to have anything but water - since I had already had 3 white wines and some food. My one friend said - 'Oh, don't be silly,get something!!' ----So - I order fish and chips and was stuffed all night and feeling how stupid I was not to listen to myself.

In the past I would have been pissed by my friend influencing me w/ her words ---now - I know she had nothing to do with it - I have a choice and a brain.
It's not easy getting back your own power in any situation.

Thank you so much for not being mean in your response.
I really shouldn't have even stuck my nose into your business.

TY,Elaine

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Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 19:39:32 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: That's so right
Message:
Yes, without a doubt. (?) That's why I got so pissed off at O and Elaine for trying to whitewash this obvious truth. Premies are assholes.
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Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 10:00:43 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Even the lilies...
Message:
...or something like that, was one of the many explanations of why we should not trust the judgement of our imperfect thoughts, but trust the infinite wisdom of the creator.

We had so many cult parasites riding on the raft of our faith in God, both internally and externally, that it's not surprising it bashed a few rocks before it toppled over.

That's really sad about your mum Marianne, but at least your family have seen you get out of the cult and rejoin the rest of the human race. Imagine how painful it would be if you were still a gung-ho cult member, believing Jesus had come again and you were one of his disciples and how come nobody else understood but they would one day.

Life is much easier when you explain it all away as 'lila' (the Lord's divine game).

Adios and hi to the Wandering Mexican

Anth on the Cliffs

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Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 15:49:59 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Even the lilies...
Message:
Thanks for that, Anth. M obviously still wants the premies to follow the commandment Never leave room for doubt in your mind, because he got his lawyers to shut down four (five?) web sites which were critical of him.

The Wandering Mexican sends his regards. He's sitting just across the room from me as I write.

Hope to see you later this year.

Love, Marianne and the Wandering Mexican

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Date: Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 11:52:36 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Continuation of letter from friend...
Message:
This is the continuation of the letter sent to my friend from his friend the sufi newspaper editor and spiritual author:


That was about it. I thought they had disappeared years ago. Haven't seen anything about the kid, Maharaj Ji, nor his mother and elder brother after they deposed him twenty years ago.
They tried to take over here with a new Divine Light Mission, I met them and they were just repulsively arrogant and stupid, so their is not much more I can say. Anyone who is following them doesn't know their history, what really happened years ago and how they perpetuate those kinds of spiritual frauds. Basically,
they have learnt to manipulate some energy, and the rest is the gullibility and naivety of the followers, who supply 90% of the mysticism through their imaginations.
Their Maharaj Ji and his people were just spiritual con men who cashed in on the need of westerners for genuine spiritual experience; in India, they are laughed at by most educated people, who are used to such displays of egotism and greed masquerading as wisdom & knowledge.


Funny, how low M has kept his profile that this guy has not heard of him for so long.

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Date: Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 01:41:31 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Billboard near Boston Program?
Message:
Woold it be possible ot take up a collection and have a billboard near the program with a simple www.expremie.org or something on it?
That along with some media coverage should at least alert people to make an informed decision about bieng sucked in.
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Date: Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 11:38:12 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: Billboard near Boston Program?
Message:
Hi Zelda,

In the UK we decided to hire unemployed people to give out leaflets outside the hall. If asked any questions, they would be instructed to reply, 'I'm only doing my job mate. The 'dole office' sent me.'

Perhaps a 'Multimedia blitz is the answer- billboards, radio, leaflets, press releases, parades, benefit gigs, books, films, dvd, smoke signals, morse code, standing naked on the hall roof, painted green, yelling through a megaphone...

We could have childcare, and a place for exes to sit if they wanted to do service...I mean if they wanted to help.

Jai Sat Chit Ananth

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Date: Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 19:10:38 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Forum Politics. Does AJWs answer mean No?
Message:
AJW
All those suggestions would be too much you silly man.
Just one efficient billboard and a few leaflet sprites seems appropriate. oh ya, and a bit of Howie
Z
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Date: Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 19:16:04 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: Forum Politics. Does AJWs answer mean No?
Message:
Hi Zelda

Does this mean I should cancel my ticket, and save the green paint and megaphone until there's a programme in Europe?

Anth 'likes to be the centre of attention'

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Date: Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 21:01:22 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Forum Politics. Does AJWs answer mean No?
Message:
yes you are on suspension till further notice.
besides Boston was orange. get it together will ya
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Date: Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 02:59:49 (GMT)
From: Zorba
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: Billboard near Boston Program?
Message:
Dont sweat it Zelda, Boston is handled.
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Date: Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 03:24:15 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Zorba
Subject: Question about DC program?
Message:
I agree with Zorba, btw, but I also have a question about the program in DC (Alexandria, VA, in other words). I know this program is going to be on Father's Day, but does anyone know when and where? And who are they going to let into this program - in other words - can I go? Or is it invitation only?
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Date: Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 21:25:02 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Question about DC program?
Message:
Katie-the programs are open to anyone who has received knowledge...the day before, or at 8am the day of the program, you have to go before a table of people, and tell one of them when you received knowledge(maybe your name also), and someone has to either be convinced that you have received the techniques,or know you from the past, and can vouch for your credibility.Most of the people will be recognized by one of the people at the table, and thus let in on that basis.I'm not sure if they have a list of prominent exes or what.
Also, I heard that in Europe some well known exes were told that they were allowed to attend a program, but if they disrupted it in any way, they would be kicked out for good...
I may know someone at one of the tables, if you're interested in going...not sure if that will help or what...
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Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 03:38:27 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: mishkat@gateway.net
To: la-ex
Subject: Question about DC program?
Message:
Hi La-ex -
Of course, I would not disrupt the program in any way, and neither would Brian. (I think that anyone who knew either of us then, or knows either of us now, could vouch for that.) However, I honestly doubt if anyone from the DC area would remember me (November, 1972, Riggs Place), and I really doubt that anyone would remember Brian (April 1972, Denver, before Montrose?). I also do not want to try and sneak in under false pretenses. My only request would be to be able to write/talk about the program afterwards.

Anyway, I'll try e-mailing you through one of our mutual friends - or feel free to e-mail me if you like. I am seriously thinking about going (I know my mom would love to see me, anyway, even if they won't let me in!).

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 11:46:03 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Question about DC program?
Message:
Hi Kate,

As one of the ring leaders of the 'Anti-Guru-Cult-Cult' which is weaving a web of hate over the globe, obstructing the work of the Living Perfect Master and his devotess, it's extremely unlikely that you'll be allowed through the door.

Who knows what evil mischief you might get up to. Why you might even try to engage someone in intelligent conversation.

Anth the bitter lemon

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Date: Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 10:50:11 (GMT)
From: Must See
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: D.C. Program details
Message:
10 A.M.
June 18th

Hilton Alexandria Mark Center/Plaza Ballroom
5000 Seminary Road

Translation available/Spanish, Hindi, ex-premie

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Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 21:46:10 (GMT)
From: zzz
Email: None
To: all
Subject: D.C. Program possibly overbooked
Message:
A source tells me that the DC program is overbooked and there is a big waiting list. I'm not sure if this is true.
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Date: Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 15:36:48 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Must See
Subject: Thank you (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 03:35:51 (GMT)
From: Zorba
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Question about DC program?
Message:
I will email you in a week.
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Date: Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 03:50:05 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Zorba
Subject: Question about DC program?
Message:
In a week?! Better make it sooner so I can get a lot of chalk and find some kids who like to write on sidewalks!

I'm kidding, but I would like to know the particulars ASAP, if anyone knows. I am from Northern Virginia and know a lot of people in that area.

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Date: Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 22:57:35 (GMT)
From: DeProGram Anand Ji
Email: not given
To: Katie
Subject: Question about DC program?
Message:
I live in DC and am curious about the program in DC, wonder if I would spot anyone I knew in the 70's.
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Date: Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 04:19:38 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Who pray tell is Zorba? Greek to me.Premie no dbt.
Message:
Katie- who is this guy
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Date: Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 15:36:08 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: Who pray tell is Zorba? not sure
Message:
sounds like it might be 'bb', but ya never know.
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Date: Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 22:54:26 (GMT)
From: Elan Vital
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: An Invitation
Message:
There will be a special evening for people who have received Knowledge with Raja Ji, Yoram Wiess, Dave Cohen and Linda Pasciotto.

The evening will focus on propagation, and will cover a broad view of its various aspects.\

It will include presentations, videos and the four guest speakers.

You are most warmly invited to attend.

Wednesday, June 7
7:30pm -9:30 pm

Marina Beach Marriot Hotel
4100 Admiralty Way
Marina Del Rey
( Main Ballroom)

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Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 19:24:18 (GMT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Elan Vital
Subject: Ya, I'll get right on that! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 23:43:05 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Elan Vital
Subject: Can Someone Attend This.....
Message:
And report back? It sounds like fundraising to me, with Yoram there, but it would be funny to hear what they have to say about 'propogation' or the lack thereof that Maharaji is thinking about.
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Date: Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 00:33:15 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Can Someone Attend This.....
Message:
I could go and report back of them telling me to leave.
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Date: Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 22:49:46 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: AFF News Briefs
Message:
Just got my computer back, up and running again, and downloaded a whole bunch of email that had been waiting for me including this, the most recent AFF news brief.

***************************************

Upcoming AFF Ex-Member Workshop


About AFF Ex-Member Workshops

These workshops are for former group members only, not family or friends
(AFF has other workshops for these persons.)

Topics discussed typically include:
o the nature of psychological manipulation and abuse
o coping with depression and guilt
o effects of hypnosis and trance techniques
o coping with feelings of anger
o coping with anxiety
o decision-making
o dependency issues
o reestablishing trust in yourself and others
o the grieving process
o reintegration/identity issues
o spiritual and philosophical concerns

The workshops are organized and coordinated by Carol Giambalvo, a thought
reform consultant, former member of a controversial group, and author/editor
of Exit Counseling: A Family Intervention and The Boston Movement: Critical
Perspectives on the International Churches of Christ (Herbert L. Rosedale,
co-editor). Mrs. Giambalvo serves AFF as Directory of Recovery Programs,
which include workshops, special publications, professional liaison, and
outreach.


The Next AFF Ex-Member Workshop

Recovery Workshop for Former Group Members

Friday 5:00 p.m. July 7, 2000 to Sunday 2:00 p.m. July 9, 2000

St. Malo Retreat and Conference Center, Estes Park, Colorado (1 hr. NW of
Denver)

Double occupancy: $165/person if register by 1 April 2000; $185/person if
register by 1 June 2000; $215/person after 1 June. Single occupancy:
$215/person if register by 1 April 2000; $235 person if register by 1 June
2000; $245/person after 1 June. All rates are per person and include meals
(Friday dinner through Sunday lunch) and Friday and Saturday accommodations.
Directions and other information will be sent after you register. If you
have questions, contact AFF (941-514-3081; fax 941-649-2267); e-mail:
aff@csj.org.

Please indicate if you have a roommate.
What is his/her name?
Do you want us to assign you a roommate? Yes [ ] No [ ]
Name of Group you belonged to:
Length of time out:

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Date: Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 02:03:27 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: I'm leary of christian groups unless they sue too.
Message:
Obsessive yes.
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Date: Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 12:40:37 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: I'm leary of your misunderstanding, Zelda
Message:
The AFF, read: American Family Foundation, is NOT a 'christian group' or any kind of religious group...its an organization dealing with the problem of destructive cults in our society.

Just so you know.

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Date: Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 21:07:48 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: non
To: Joey
Subject: I'm leary of your misunderstanding, Zelda
Message:
'International Churches of Christ' and 'outreach'
sort of spooked me.
Usually 'non denominational' means evangelical or charismatic or some such zealot mission. But if you are familir with the group then I am wrong.
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Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 03:15:43 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: I'm leary of your misunderstanding, Zelda
Message:
Really, there was no reason to be spooked.

A more careful reading of the post would have made it clear that Carol Giambalvo, the co-ordinator of this workshop for former cult members is a former member herself of the International Church of Christ.

And while 'non-denominational' may or may not usually mean 'evangelical or charasmatic or some such zealot mission' in a religious context...the AFF is NOT a religious group, but again, an organization dealing with the problem of destructive cults in society.

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Date: Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 19:34:42 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Ex Looking for links/info Re suing cult leaders
Message:
for damages from brainwashing, loss of income, donation hemmorage ect ect.
Any links appreciated.
Will forward to him.
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Date: Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 20:52:57 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: No, sueing EV for having files on exes!
Message:
Like what ex-scientologist are doing these days in France, and IT WORKED !!!!!!

The police went to search their offices for files and computers etc, having info on their exes ......

EV's servers (First class) and organizers' computers and documents' could be investigated on that ground if we exes complain to authorities for EV having files (including pictures) on US !!!!!!!!!

We know these guys names and addresses, and their servers phone#.......

What do you think?

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Date: Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 23:20:21 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: I think you are right on. I'm sure they are
Message:
doing this.
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Date: Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 01:34:21 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Jean Michael/Selene
Subject: Can you get
Message:
some information on this?
If this is one of the places to get foothold- then I am very interested in getting some details.
If this is a current happening- wold they have a spokesperson to relate how they are going about it?

I think that if we have one ex rep in each country that can compile a information dossier in their home country on pressure put on cults form the ex memebers- we can see where to go from there.

If this is already bieng done then I would like to be in the information loop. If not I humbly suggest that we do. (it)

Smiles ect
Zelda

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Date: Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 07:36:43 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: Here it is, in French, but who cares!
Message:
The information is in the news in France these days, and this is from a post in the fr.soc.sectes newsgroup:

++++++
http://www.liberation.fr/quotidien/semaine/20000601jeup.html

Van Ruymbeke s'attaque à la Scientologie
Par DAVID DUFRESNE

Le jeudi 1er juin 2000

«Tous nos fichiers sont déclarés à la Cnil. Nous n'avons rien à nous reprocher. S'il y a eu un oubli de notre part, on réparera. C'est tout.»
Danielle Gounord, porte-parole de la secte

D'ordinaire, les sous-sols du siège de l'Association spirituelle de l'Eglise de scientologie d'Ile-de-France, rue Jules César, derrière la
Bastille, à Paris, sont un lieu feutré. Là, sous la lumière artificielle, c'est le cour de la machine scientologue qui est en branle, dans le calme,
dans l'ordre et dans la plus haute discrétion. Après un escalier, un couloir borgne donne sur le bureau des finances de la secte, celui de son
administration, ceux du DSA (Departement of Special Affairs, ex-OSA, service de renseignements maison) ainsi qu'une pièce dédiée aux «purifications».
Partout, des dossiers empilés, des cartonnages impeccables. Mardi 16 mai, pourtant, les lieux ont connu une agitation extrême. Des policiers du Sefti
(Service d'enquête sur les fraudes aux technologies de l'information) ont débarqué sans prévenir. Perquisition. Pour la secte, le coup est rude. C'est
une partie de sa documentation interne qui va être saisie. Et pas seulement.
Selon nos informations, deux ordinateurs ont été emportés, ainsi que deux serveurs informatiques. Deux serveurs qui, selon une source proche de
l'affaire, se trouvaient «dans un réduit, à l'abri derrière une sorte d'armoire électrique». Porte-parole de la secte, Danielle Gounord assure qu'elle ignorait la présence de ces deux serveurs.

Fichiers informatiques. A l'origine de l'affaire, trois fois rien. Un ancien adepte proteste auprès de la Scientologie. Excédé de recevoir les
publications de la secte, malgré son départ, il demande à être retiré de ses fichiers. Rien n'y fait. L'homme est relancé, encore et toujours. Reçoit des
lettres, dont une manuscrite, et des revues comme «Ethique et Libertés», l'organe des scientologues, celui-là même qui précisait pourtant, dans sa livraison de février, être en conformité avec la loi sur les fichiers informatiques. Las, selon l'adepte, jamais la Scientologie n'accède à sa
demande. Et l'homme porte plainte pour «atteinte à la vie privée» par conservation de données informatiques, pour «publicité mensongère» et pour «escroquerie».

Quelques semaines plus tard, un second adepte fait de même. Les plaintes atterrissent sur le bureau d'un premier juge puis sont reprises par Renaud
Van Ruymbeke. C'est alors que le Sefti entre en jeu, le 16 mai au matin, comme le confirme une source judiciaire. Objectif : vérifier ce que les
machines de la Scientologie peuvent bien receler. L'une contiendrait la comptabilité de la secte, l'autre celui de la SEL (Scientologie Espace
Librairie), en charge du commerce des livres de Ron Hubbard, le défunt fondateur de la Scientologie, et l'un des serveurs était relié en direct
avec Copenhague, plaque tournante de la secte en Europe. Pendant ce temps, Marc Walter, président de l'Association spirituelle de l'Eglise de
scientologie d'Ile-de-France, est placé en garde à vue, puis relâché. Outre ses fonctions, la justice s'intéresse à la Commission des citoyens pour les
droits de l'homme (CCDH), dont le bureau français fut longtemps domicilié chez lui, dans le nord de Paris. Une CCDH dont le but, depuis une trentaine
d'années, est toujours le même : attaquer la psychiatrie, ennemie jurée de la Scientologie.

Les scientologues, justement. Pour eux, la perquisition du 16 mai est du «harcèlement administratif», une «affaire anodine». Pour preuve, selon Danielle Gounord, disquettes et ordinateurs auraient été restitués quatre
jours plus tard. Habituée des procédures judiciaires, elle minimise : «Nous avons eu l'impression d'une visite de routine. Rien à voir avec le raid de
1990», qui allait déboucher sur l'instruction puis le grand procès de Lyon, sept ans plus tard. «Tous nos fichiers sont déclarés à la Cnil. Nous n'avons
rien à nous reprocher. S'il y a eu un oubli de notre part, on réparera. C'est tout.»

«Dossiers agents morts». Le problème, c'est qu'avec Renaud Van Ruymbecke, les scientologues sont tombés sur un magistrat connu pour sa rigueur et sa
détermination. Pas sûr, dès lors, que leur optimisme affiché dure bien longtemps. D'autant qu'outre les fichiers des anciens adhérents, la police
aurait saisi des documents relatifs aux sympathisants, comme aux adversaires de la secte, signés du Departement of Special Affairs (DSA). Ce que dément
formellement la porte-parole de la secte.

Officiellement, le DSA est le bureau des relations publiques de la Scientologie. Y travaillent des gens connus comme Danielle Gounord et Jean
Dupuis, les porte-parole. Et des gens plus discrets, en charge des affaires fiscales, juridiques et des investigations. Des gens capables, par exemple,
de rédiger des «Dead Agent Files» («Dossiers agents morts»), sortes de biographies officieuses établies à base d'articles, et parfois d'enquêtes individuelles, servant, selon l'aveu même de Danielle Gounord, «à
discréditer» les individus. C'est ainsi que les interlocuteurs du milliardaire américain Bob Minton, farouche opposant à la secte, ont reçu
par courrier un dossier le concernant, trois jours après son passage à Paris en avril. C'est ainsi, également, que les journalistes les plus véhéments
ont droit à leur fiche. Et que chacun de leur article est résumé, traduit, et expédié à la maison mère, aux Etats-Unis, assorti d'un pourcentage de
«théta» et d'«enthéta», de bonnes et de mauvaises vibrations, et d'annotations comme «les ennemis cités», «les phrasesclés», etc.

Dans l'organisation multinationale de la Scientologie, le DSA est au cour du dispositif, du côté de l'élite. En 1990, une publicité interne en dévoilait
la mission: «créer un environnement sûr dans lequel la Scientologie peut prendre de l'expansion». Officiellement, du côté de la secte, on assure
pourtant que tout ceci est bien fini. Que la «purge a été faite», et que les sections sensibles du «Bureau des affaires spéciales» ont été dissoutes.
N'empêche. Selon plusieurs sources, le 16 mai, les policiers auraient bien fouiné de ce côté-là aussi, dans les sous-sols du siège de la Scientologie.

© Libération

***********

je crains fort que ça, ça fasse particulièrement mal. Je ne sais pas si vous imaginez combien de gens vont pouvoir déposer des pliantes si on sait qui est visé etc...

ah... leurs dossiers sont déclarés à la cnil? eh ben, voilà qui me surprendrait quelque peu.

+++++++++++++

This is a major attack against scientology, from French authorities.....

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Date: Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 21:18:12 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: But J-M, it's because they LOVE YOU!!!(nt)
Message:
LOVE baby
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Date: Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 23:10:47 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: Right on Daneane! ;)
Message:
Yes Daneane, that's what it is! What else could it be but that LOVE, baby!?!

I mean even if m has medical files, lets say on his leading ex-premie critics, it would only be out of love!!

Because he cares for our well-being, and he just wants to make sure that if anyone has any problems....they'll have the proper medical care.

You better believe it!

Gooey Mahafraudji cares!! :::))

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Date: Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 00:34:27 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: And he's ALWAYS there for you!!(nt)
Message:
I'm here my flock.
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Date: Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 21:32:03 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: Then IF they really love me, why don't they let me
Message:
in????

We can also attack them for discrimination !!!!!!! At least in France this is a valid case for complaining and calling the police on the spot at the entrance.

Let's say I want to register, I don't want to pay, and they don't want to give me a seat or let me in and attend the conference and talk to my friends!

Can't you force them to let you in? in The US?

They won't love me anymore I guess.......... I'm creating dire havoc in their organisation.

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Date: Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 17:08:21 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Elaine and Everyone
Subject: The dogma in karma (from inactive thread)
Message:
This is a belated reply to Elaine in a thread originally started by Blood, about 'insidious cult entrapments'.

Elaine, flattery will get you everywhere, but remember - there's some places you might not want to go!

OK, so the doctrine of Karma is as old as Hinduism itself. However, in the West, you've got to agree that it was virtually unknown until (comparatively) recently. No doubt those who ascribe to it might like to claim that it's existed since the Big Bang, but then they would, wouldn't they?

Of course, cause and effect HAS existed since the Big Bang - but Karma implies a whole lot more than just action and reaction. The 'wishful-thinking' aspect of it that I didn't explain too clearly (if at all), was getting at this idea: we should not let ANY doctrine/dogma/creed absolve us of our moral responsibility to act as agents of human justice. It seems to me that the appeal to Karma apparently does attempt to bypass our own role in this.

In simpler terms: suppose someone's actions give me cause to think they deserve a reprimand. But then suppose that I haven't the strength of character to 'tell them off' myself, but merely content myself with the attitude of 'oh, they'll get their karma in the end'. That would not only be cowardly, but also sheer wishful thinking on my part, wouldn't it?

Of course, there's 'good karma' as well as bad, but there's no getting away from the fact that an intrinsic part of the doctrine is tied up in the belief in re-incarnation. The idea of 'being bound to the wheel of suffering' until our karma is paid-off/balanced is a pretty negative way of looking at the opportunities that life gives us. Far better to say to yourself - 'this might be the only chance I get at experiencing this world ' and make the most of it.

It takes a fair bit of courage to stand back and really re-examine the beliefs we've grown comfortable with. And if some of those beliefs are as old as the hills - well, all the more reason for re-examining them, IMO. The process is unsettling, for sure, - no doubt it would be far easier to stick with the 'certainties' of the ways of thinking that we're familiar with.


Question: guess who said this:

'I wish to propose for the reader's favourable consideration a doctrine which may, I fear, appear wildly paradoxical and subversive. The doctrine in question is this: that it is undesirable to believe a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true.'

(Answer: Bertrand Russell, from 'Introduction: On the Value of Scepticism', Sceptical Essays [London: Allen & Unwin, 1928])

Which bring us to this:
What are the questions we DON'T ask, when we take on a new belief-system?

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Date: Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 23:25:17 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: The dogma in karma (from inactive thread)
Message:
Hey cq,
I'll write something - but I understand I may not hear from you til you're back at your desk.

PS-my mom had a NDE when I was 2 1/2 - I grew up on karma and reincarnation from the start - just a background on me...

I like that paragraph of your's about if someone needs a reprimand, but someone is too 'weak' to say anything that you would think it cowardly. Yes, I myself encourage my friends to take action ---
((pps -my dog story if anyone cares - the neighbors are paying for my gate damage - think that was easy -think again!))

However, not saying anything isn't always cowardly...in a Zen way,some might think in a witch way,I have incredible power - I don't feel I had to get my neighbors to pay for my gate repair at all --I KNEW they would one day be faced with a similar situation to simply learn what they needed. I feel I accelerated their lesson - by teaching them there are consequences in life.
My test - personally - was to teach them there 'lesson' with no anger,ego or attachment. And my personal flair of gentleness, understanding and non-judgement. That was also part of the lesson.That not everyone is a mean parental fiqure,etc.

Now, the 'wishful thinking' - I don't exactly go along with - bec there is 'wishful thinking' and, for me, there is 'the power of knowing'. Now, Jim will jump all over this - and you may disagree - but, I don't need a book or a brick to fall on my head any more times to know how powerful I am.(We all are.)

I can see clearly when there has been an injustice done,say ---and then, do nothing but,slyly wait -- and it inevitably gets taken care of. I didn't lift a finger - just sat back with that smirk on my face and watched.

I haven't much time - dinner ....

So the Russell quote - ....no ground for supposing it true.' would never be a quote in my personal repertoire.

I love posting w/ you -I'll get back - taking your post w/ me to contemplate. Didn't get to everything, I know,--- it was a long post,cq.

Elaine

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Date: Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 13:36:27 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: The dogma in karma (from inactive thread)
Message:
The problem I have with karma (and I do believe that to some extent we reap what we sow) is that the majority of the people in the world are in situations they have absolutely no choice/control over. For example, they are born into severe poverty, or live with a terrible disease, so does that make their situation their 'karma'? I don't believe this. Even though I believe in God.

As far as manipulating the karma of other people, I am not sure it is a good idea (IMO) to believe we have that power, Elaine. It sets you up as somehow having a sense of power over others in some mystical way, which I don't think you (or anyone, except God) has. I find this idea of somehow having God's power in your hands, to be disturbing. Isn't that what Guru M and other gurus come to believe?

I think it's fine to want to get justice about your fence--don't get me wrong--but I think you presume too much when you think you can affect another's 'karma'. I also wish I had your faith that justice somehow works itself out..I think some people don't have a conscience and just keep on doing whatever they want, I wish there were some kind of justice for them...of course sometimes they can turn around by people calling them on their actions as you have done. But I wouldn't want you to teach me one of your 'divine lessons' if I did something that hurt you in some way. I would much rather you deal with me human to human.

I hope you know I am not trying to 'dis' you--I think you are a good person--I am just challenging your thinking. And you are more than welcome to challenge mine anytime.

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Date: Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 15:21:46 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: The dogma in karma
Message:
Oh, what I meant about the neighbors and the fence was --- if I had done nothing -- then they would have had to deal with some similar situation in the future to experience what they had done to another - to know the feeling---By me talking with them and them knowing my feelings of inconvenience and them owning up to it and paying for the repair ---it's all done and over. Karma finished. I'm sorry - didn't mean I was God dishing out Karma - that's Bush's job in Texas,BTW.

Karma is a very interesting issue isn't it. The child born in poverty thing---it's classic. I understand the confusion.

IF one goes deeper and IF they believe in an after life and IF they believe in reincarnation and IF they believe we take part in choosing our next incarnation to best learn and grow (these are big IF's)....then I believe....we choose whatever life we are in to best advance. We can not judge.
The pauper today - could have been the nobleman in the past.
The KKK bigot - may be the African in the next.
That's why I wanted you read Brian Weiss,MD. So much is talked about in a way better than I could. Mainly because his patients are real people that through hypnotherapy have gotten rid of lifelong phobias in a day --after remembering a pastlife ordeal.

Example - a woman that is deathly afraid of swimming - bec (in a past life) in India she drowned in a flood ---next day she goes swimming.
Woman can't have a healthy relationship bec of her fear that she'll always be abandoned/left ----pastlife -her father left when she was a child so she was always haunted by this fear of someone close leaving. Now she's ok.

It goes on...it gives insights after awhile of the picking and choosing of certain lives to advance. It helps us to understand somewhat what we can't fully understand.

Hey,ya know, I have to go for now - it is always a pleasure posting with you.

Elaine

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Date: Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 15:09:08 (GMT)
From: Paul
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Off to Paris tomorrow and hope to have knowledge
Message:
review with JM or at least visit him in jail and give him satsang, if he's been nabbed for copyright violations.
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Date: Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 15:26:27 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Paul
Subject: on parole before the trial, don't worry!
Message:
We'll have a great international meeting ..... in our favorite cafe here!!

Everybody's invited by the way!

'La Tartine', rue St Antoine, Mo St Paul.

We haven't decided for the time ....

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Date: Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 15:36:06 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: you mean 'bail' (nt)
Message:
fff
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Date: Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 17:10:38 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You don't know European justice, Jim! (nt)
Message:
You don't know European justice, Jim! (nt)
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Date: Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 16:07:10 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: yeh, someone's bribed them ....
Message:
was it you?

Thank you BTW.

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Date: Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 14:46:29 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Back from New York
Message:
Just returned from several days in Manhattan. I am getting better at maneuvering myself about town - only got lost three times this year.

I had planned on attending a Maharaji video on Thursday night, just to see what the premie world is like now. Called the number and found the location - just off Times Square. But when the time came to go, I felt a strong aversion. So instead, I went to the Presbyterian church at Madison and 63rd and heard a Bach organ recital. During the encore, a fugue in A minor, I felt a blissful feeling, which evidently was shared throughout the audience, since the applause was very appreciative. Now there's a master!

I have skimmed through the archives here and have noticed that Rawat and his lawyers have been busy during the last few weeks. But there is no chance that they can keep the ex's websites off the Internet. I have added a new paragraph to the final section of my '9 objections' letter, which describes these legal efforts by Rawat. I continue to send out the letter to my long list of recipients. Following is the new paragraph:

Recently, in May 2000, Mr. Rawat has made concerted efforts through a law firm to close down all the websites critical of him and his organization. The legal objection has been that copyrighted material is used without permission. These efforts have so far been largely unsuccessful. Three sites were in fact discontinued under pressure, but two have re-emerged and will continue to operate. Fair use laws guarantee the right to reprint certain amounts of copyrighted matter for critique. Additionally, most of the information on these websites is personal opinion and first-hand knowledge, which is of course protected speech in the United States and all free countries. Mr. Rawat would naturally not want it known that the vast majority of the people who receive Knowledge do not continue to follow him. But with the advent of the Internet, he will now always be unable to suppress the negative public criticisms that he generates.

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Date: Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 16:48:58 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Good Addition to the Letter, Way
Message:
Thanks for that. Sounds like you had a good time in NYC. How was the weather?
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Date: Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 17:23:30 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Thanks, Joe, and the weather...
Message:
was ideal, as it mostly is this time of year. Only used an umbrella once, and only used a jacket a couple times. I would never go in August: wall-to-wall people in 100 degress, unh unh.
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Date: Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 15:14:20 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Back from New York
Message:
Way, could you send a copy to howiecarr@mindspring.com. He is a talk show host in Boston. I have been calling and emailing everyday to get him to at least mention or do a segment on Cults, M's in particular with his show in town on June 12th. The woman, Sandy, that answers the phone (1-877-469-4322) knew some premies in DC and says she will try to get him interested, but he's done a show before on cults.

I tried to get as much info. to them on M being the reincarnate of PT Barnum, I mean God, and sent them some links to this site and others. Also, many other exe's have written.

I told them that with the show being broadcast on the internet that he would have quite a few callers from around the world with some great material for him.

If you could just send him your letter, re-iterate some other stuff, it would be appreciated. Thanx, welcome back, jondon.

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Date: Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 15:20:24 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: jondon
Subject: To Jondon
Message:
Done.

And thanks, Jondon, for your efforts. You're an interesting one, having never been a premie, but still so anti-Rawat.

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Date: Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 17:58:35 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: link attempted
Message:
I've never provided a working link, but I have the instructions now and I am attempting to provide a link to the part of JM's site that includes the updated 9 objections letter.
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Date: Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 13:47:59 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Way and Katie
Subject: link attempted
Message:
Fantastic letter, Way. It is so succinctly written and addresses all of the important points--thanks.

The whole website looks great--is this J-M's work?

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Date: Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 19:03:13 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: link successful!
Message:
You are now a master of HTML (seriously, people get very defeated by the link thing! My secret is to have the way to do it written down by my desk - I can't seem to memorize it.)

Way, I wanted to thank you very much for taking the time to write that letter. I think it's very well-stated - you have said clearly what many people have trouble saying for themselves.

Thanks -
Katie

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Date: Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 20:42:12 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: To Katie
Message:
Katie,

Yes, I'm keeping those link instructions handy. And thanks about the letter - it is a compilation of many things I have read here and I had quite a few specific suggestions to work with.

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Date: Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 14:36:14 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: OT-From country that brought you rape-free jeans
Message:
http://www.the-times.co.uk/news/pages/Times/frontpage.html?1490164

This just in from the London Times...

Court approves child sex photos

FROM JOHN PHILLIPS IN ROME
ITALY'S highest appeal court has ruled that paedophiles
can take pornographic pictures of minors as long as they
are not sold for profit.

The Court of Cassation in Rome upheld the acquittal by a
court in Turin of Antonio B., 45, over photographs that he
took when he forced a youth of 13 to carry out sexual
acts. The photographs were kept for his personal use.

Marco Griffi, the chairman of the Association of
Children's Friends, a pressure group for children's rights,
said: 'The crime is abusing the child, not of making money
for it. Even if it is not technically a crime it is highly
immoral, against ethics.'

Ernesto Caffo, the chairman of Telefono Azzurro, a
telephone helpline for children, said that the judges had
misinterpreted the law against sexual exploitation of
children which was passed by Parliament in 1998. 'A
ruling of this kind means letting people get away with the
worst damage done to minors. The 1998 law talks about
psychological, not economic, exploitation.' He added:
'Now we will have to start all over again working for
greater protection.'

A specialist in family law, Maretta Scoca, said that the
judges had applied the letter of the law but lawyers would
be unhappy about it nonetheless. 'The Cassation has only
done its duty. But its interpretation will open the way to an
endless number of pornographic acts carried out against
minors that will go unpunished.'

Last year the Cassation court ruled that women who
claimed that they were raped were lying if they were
wearing jeans in the attack. It also ruled that a man who
showed pornographic films to minors was not carrying out
a sex act.

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Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 17:33:08 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: OT-From country that brought you rape-free jeans
Message:
You wouldn't think Italians would go for the letter of the law. Jesu Christe...another notch.

I can see the ad campaign now for rape-free jeans...

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Date: Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 11:32:27 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: a quick happy birthday to...
Message:
...the Birthday Goddess. Happy birthday, ROBYN!

I know that some people think the forum has outgrown these birthday greetings, and I think they have a point, but Robyn definitely deserves one for remembering ALL those birthdays all year this year! Have a very happy day, Robyn.

Lots of love - always -
Katie

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Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 17:28:47 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: A Day Late and A Dollar Short, but...
Message:
hope you had a great birthday. Hope your days living under the 'Tower of the Tarot' are short-lived. Been there--I call it hang -gliding over the abyss.

Take care

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Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 01:03:30 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: A Day Late and A Dollar Short, but...
Message:
Dear Monmot,
Thanks so much! I am working through it but still in it. Almost everything about my life is changing, no small feat! :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 21:11:24 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Katie
Subject: a quick happy birthday to...
Message:
HAPPY BIRTHDAY!
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Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 09:18:14 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: lovely :), thanks
Message:
awpoith
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Date: Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 23:17:29 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: a quick happy birthday to...
Message:
Happy Birthday Robyn,

Looks like the Ricola tablets arrived in time.

Have a good one.

Anth the old

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Date: Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 03:57:28 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: a quick happy birthday to...
Message:
Dear Anth,
And don't forget the spider! :) You know, I finally realized, took it for granted first, arrogant American!, Fresh Mint and whatever is on the other box is in English!
Hope you are setting in, got a cooker, a bed etc, humming right along, I hope. :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 11:51:05 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Gotta chair for 5 dollars (nt)
Message:
ah luxury
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Date: Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 21:34:51 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: a quick happy birthday to...
Message:
Dear Katie,
Thanks sweetie. I've had a great day today, got to be out in the sun, was supposed to rain all day. Sever storms just went through and I wanted to thank you all before I head out to meet friends.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 02:54:31 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Robyn - you deserve...
Message:
...the best day ever - especially this year. Hope everything looks up for you soon. Glad it was a good day.

Love,
Katie

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Date: Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 21:13:54 (GMT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Happy Birthday Robyn!
Message:
Happy Birthday Robyn!

May you be happy and free,
and continue to access the powerful Goddess energy within.

Love, Bobby

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Date: Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 21:35:49 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: Happy Birthday Robyn!
Message:
Thanks Bobby, made a special apperance just for me? :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 20:57:41 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: happy birthday to the beautiful Robyn...
Message:
Look in your mailbox dear (your email mailbox)
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Date: Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 00:56:02 (GMT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Happy Birthday to the wonderful Birthday Goddess..
Message:
Robyn,
As you approach this year of change, may things work out in the best way possible for you. Check your e-mail box.
Love,
VP
P.S. I like these birthday greetings. Again, they show that ex-premies are real people--real positive people in some cases, eh? (Of course I am in favor of off topic conversations anyway, so what do I know?)
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Date: Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 04:01:36 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Happy Birthday to the wonderful Birthday Goddess..
Message:
Dear Veep,
Thanks, love you to bits. :)
Maybe newer people feel left out and would like to give their b-days so they could be included. I was going down a list of exes in my head today and think I remembered a lot of them, my problem is I have to think of the person and then the date so the date doesn't trigger anything for me! ;) I have always had the odd apporach to any challenge!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 01:27:57 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Happy Birthday controversy
Message:
Hey VP honey -
I like the birthday greetings too, but some people have mentioned that they felt left out because everyone was wishing happy birthday to someone they'd never met. I can understand that point of view too - the forum population is getting large (and WAY too large for one little old birthday goddess to keep track of it all. Oops, I guess I shouldn't say OLD - snicker!).

BTW (and off the birthday topic), do you know that you are the first 'ex-aspirant' I can think of that posted regularly on the forum? There are now several more - and I've been thinking about that too - it is no wonder, really!
Love,
Katie

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Date: Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 18:08:45 (GMT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Happy Birthday controversy
Message:
Katie,

This place can turn anything into a controversy--even birthdays--snicker! At least everyone is FREE to have their own opinions about things here. Hey, did you know that opinions are like assholes? Everyone has them and they all stink-- HA HA

Yes, this population is very large and the threads are moving so fast that you can miss someone's birthday thread ON their birthday--ha ha! I don't know anyone here anymore, but a handful of the old-timers (there is that word OLD again--snicker!) Good point that if the Birthday Goddess doesn't know someone, they might get left out. She has great magical powers, but not quite as much psychic ability as, say, the tooth fairy or Santa, right, Robyn?

Okay, let's end the controversy now:
'HAPPY BIRTHDAY to EVERYONE on the forum whose birthday got missed in 2000!' Well, it's not quite the same when it's not from Robyn...

Was I the first ex-aspirant? I'm glad there are others out there now. I like to think I am the first virtual premie, thanks to Mr. Ex. (I think he gave me that name) Do you remember, you called me Baby Prem because of my age? :)

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Date: Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 21:36:51 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: happy birthday to the beautiful Robyn...
Message:
Thanks Helen, got the card, grooved to the music and was touched by the message. Thanks. :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 01:20:53 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: The card had music?????(nt)
Message:
hdsjhjlal
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Date: Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 16:44:19 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Happy Birthday Robyn!!!
Message:
You are a great person, and I'm so glad to have met you, not only because I also got to meet your daughter, who has agreed to do some very much appreciated house sitting for a very old house and a very affectionate Dalamatian.

Have a great day, and a great year!

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Date: Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 21:38:44 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Happy Birthday Robyn!!!
Message:
Dear Joe,
Thanks, I am too excited that my cynical Jessica got to meet you and really liked you, who wouldn't, :) and now she is going to mind Nigel. Makes me smile everytime I think of it. It was great meeting you too and hope to do it again sometime.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 14:58:43 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: here's 2 Robyn's objectivity (NT)
Message:
happy bd
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Date: Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 21:39:37 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: means a lot to me, thanks raina (NT)
Message:
a;rthaw[
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Date: Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 12:49:05 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Happy birthday, Birthday Goddess ...
Message:
Happy birthday to you,
Happy birthday to you,
Happy birthday, Birthday Goddess,
Happy birthday to you.

And many more where they came from.

Best wishes,

Chris

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Date: Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 21:41:46 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Happy birthday, Birthday Goddess ...
Message:
Thanks Chris, glad we got to communicate some after a shaky beginnig. :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 11:45:29 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: I second that one big time, hav a good 1 mz ricola
Message:
But don't go too wild,

on 2nd thoughts, why not!

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Date: Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 21:43:08 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: I second that one big time, hav a good 1 mz ricola
Message:
Dear ham,
EXACTLY!!! Why not! :) I'll be tearing up that coffee house! :) Not as fun as dancing but most, not all, things aren't. :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 16:55:40 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Happy birthday girlfriend!
Message:
Happy Birthday to you, Robyn!!! What are you going to do for yourself? I'd make you a cake if you were nearby.

Much love, Marianne

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Date: Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 21:44:50 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Happy birthday girlfriend!
Message:
Dear Marianne,
Thanks, no cake but nice thought. I worked a project for myself and am going out with friends tonight. Even got to lay in the sun naked, that will make any day! :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 02:31:52 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Happy birthday girlfriend!
Message:
Every day is a good day. I hope yr brthdy wz 2!!!!!!!!!
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Date: Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 23:20:02 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Happy birthday Robyn!
Message:
Best of birthday wishes from a cold downunder where all thoughts of nude sunbathing are, for the moment, completely out of the question.
Thanks for being on the forum.

Love, Oliver

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Date: Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 00:49:31 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: robyn
Subject: goodness gracias, senorita, buenas tardes y
Message:
bon voyage, salud, felice navidad and vente vaca rajo !!!

(i think)

Here's lookin at ya, kid (nekkid I hope:)

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Date: Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 01:48:20 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: ha ha
Message:
sorry to bust up RObyn's thread but that was funny, gerry! Also the 'that's very candida of you'ha ha

Okay back to the much deserved accolades for Robyn, the person I would vote most fun to be with!!

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Date: Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 04:21:04 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: ha ha hahahahaha!!!! :)
Message:
Dear Helen,
I think you meant to call Gerry Canadian which he isn't but you called him, candida, I am thinking it is the medical term for a yeast infection!!!! Christ I am cracking up!!! :) Maybe I am wrong and then you'll know how deviant I am. :)
When I was in 9th grade and trying to remember the answer to a test question, I couldn't and just tried something but when I got the test back I got it wrong and had written douche! :) Of course someone posts here under that name, different strokes, eh? :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 12:33:12 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: ha ha hahahahaha!!!! :)
Message:
Actually I was referring to a post in inactive now, I had posted that panty hose and hot humid DC weather equals a yeast infection and then Gerry wrote 'That's very Candida of you, Helen'

How was your b'day????????

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Date: Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 02:11:16 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Happy Birthday Robyn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Message:
a cuppachino toast to you.
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Date: Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 04:24:06 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: Thanks everyone
Message:
Thanks Zelda, and Gerry and Gregg, and Oliver,
I feel like that woman looking through the looking glass on that kids show, do bee's, something. Anyway thank you so much for your kind thoughts.
I did a bit of a comedy routine tonight to a small comfortable group. It was a start. A good day all in all.
Love,
Robyn
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