Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 15:35:21 (GMT)
From: May 30, 2000 To: Jun 08, 2000 Page: 2 Of: 5


Nigel -:- Mishler -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 00:12:00 (GMT)
__ Keith -:- Mishler -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 15:36:49 (GMT)
__ __ Elaine -:- Resignation letter -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 16:34:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ Keith -:- Resignation letter -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 22:25:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Resignation letter -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 15:18:11 (GMT)
__ CHR -:- Mishler -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 02:12:56 (GMT)
__ __ Zelda -:- My Lord was so misunderstood. -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 05:15:55 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- Mishler great post -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 00:32:39 (GMT)
__ __ bb -:- Mishler great post -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 15:52:11 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Nice idea... -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 00:50:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ Susan -:- son? Any leads? I think we ought to thank him -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 15:43:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- son? Any leads? I think we ought to thank him -:- Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 01:51:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ Denver ex -:- Mishlers 'comrade in coupe' still around- is ex -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 01:43:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Mishlers 'comrade in coupe' still around- is ex -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 16:40:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Deaver Ex -:- Mishlers 'comrade in coupe' still around- is ex -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 19:43:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ la-ex -:- Mishlers 'comrade in coupe' still around- is ex -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 02:40:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Denver ex -:- Mishlers 'comrade in coupe' still around- is ex -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 03:03:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Denver ex -:- Mishlers 'comrade in coupe' -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 03:07:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ la-ex -:- Mishlers 'comrade in coupe' -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 04:23:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ la-ex -:- Mishlers 'comrade in coupe' -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 04:30:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Denver Ex -:- Mishlers 'comrade in coupe' -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 05:03:08 (GMT)

jondon -:- Will be in Boston Monday -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 22:30:28 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Jondon, please get AS MUCH INFO as you can -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 09:01:44 (GMT)
__ __ Roger eDrek -:- Jondon, please get AS MUCH INFO as you can -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 01:01:47 (GMT)
__ __ Mickey the Mole -:- Jondon, please get AS MUCH INFO as you can -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 17:52:37 (GMT)
__ __ jondon -:- Jean-Michel -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 16:37:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Jean-Michel -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 17:01:24 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek -:- Go fer it! -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 23:08:47 (GMT)
__ __ Zelda -:- Boston on Monday -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 01:30:13 (GMT)

Jim -:- Newspeak -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 19:23:17 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Don't hold your breath -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 19:27:53 (GMT)
__ __ Roger eDrek -:- That positivity, that certainty. -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 23:28:55 (GMT)

Gregg -:- Am I in a Cult? -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 16:39:09 (GMT)
__ cq -:- Just for the record -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 19:46:36 (GMT)
__ __ Gregg -:- Just for the record -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 20:33:44 (GMT)
__ hamzen -:- I think the definition of a cult -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 19:43:57 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Am I in a Cult? -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 17:16:58 (GMT)
__ __ Gregg -:- Am I in a Cult? -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 20:25:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Am I in a Cult? -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 21:58:01 (GMT)
__ Keith -:- Am I in a Cult? -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 02:09:42 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- Am I in a Cult? -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 00:33:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ Gregg -:- Am I in a Cult? -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 17:12:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Am I in a Cult? -:- Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 02:14:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Am I in a Cult? -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 17:40:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- Great post, Jerry (nt) -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 14:53:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Thanks, Nige (nt) -:- Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 01:47:52 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- Yes. -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 00:30:02 (GMT)
__ Daneane -:- Am I in a Cult? -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 00:23:42 (GMT)
__ __ hamzen -:- 'jade me', like it, very poetic -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 20:09:40 (GMT)
__ Arthur -:- Am I in a Cult? -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 21:45:36 (GMT)
__ __ Keith -:- Am I in a Cult? -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 02:30:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ la-ex -:- Am I in a Cult? -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 02:47:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ keith -:- Am I in a Cult? -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 06:32:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Sometimes Keith???? stretching credence -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 19:08:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ keith -:- with my own eyes -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 22:17:19 (GMT)
__ Powerman -:- Am I in a Cult? -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 19:43:02 (GMT)
__ __ Elaine -:- Am I in a Cult?-P-man/Gregg -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 20:06:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ Powerman -:- Maharaji's cult -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 20:48:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Gregg -:- Maharaji's cult -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 23:36:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Maharaji's cult -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 20:59:47 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Whatever the name it's a dog and pony show -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 19:16:02 (GMT)
__ __ Gregg -:- Pavlov's dog, Darwin's pony -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 23:40:17 (GMT)
__ Bobby -:- Am I in a Cult? -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 19:12:41 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- Bobby and Gregg -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 21:15:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bobby -:- Bobby and Gregg -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 23:29:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Helen -:- Bobby and Gregg -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 00:26:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Bobby -:- Helen and Mt. Washmore -:- Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 00:35:46 (GMT)
__ __ Gregg -:- Buddhist practice -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 23:31:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bobby -:- Buddhist practice -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 00:08:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Keith -:- Buddhist practice -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 02:43:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Bobby -:- Buddhist practice -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 23:52:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Buddhist practice -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 01:17:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bobby -:- Buddhist practice -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 18:20:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ keith -:- Buddhist practice -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 06:36:31 (GMT)
__ gerry -:- sounds more like a club to me... -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 16:50:18 (GMT)
__ __ hamzen -:- Well gerry, for some reason the thought of you -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 19:26:56 (GMT)
__ __ Gregg -:- sounds more like a club to me... -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 17:52:40 (GMT)

Robyn -:- Happy Birthday gErRy! :) -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 14:58:14 (GMT)
__ cq -:- Here's to one more candle on your cake, mate! -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 19:35:58 (GMT)
__ Padre Michael -:- Feliz Cumpleaos! -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 19:54:28 (GMT)
__ Monmot -:- Happy Birthday gErRy! :) -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 17:25:06 (GMT)
__ gErRy -:- Happy Birthday gErRy! :) -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 15:18:53 (GMT)
__ __ Bobby -:- Happy Birthday gErRy! :) -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 01:53:22 (GMT)
__ __ Robyn -:- Happy Birthday gErRy! :) -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 01:06:49 (GMT)
__ __ Roger eDrek -:- Happy Birthday gErRy! :) -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 19:50:22 (GMT)
__ Katie -:- Happy Birthday Gerry! -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 15:18:41 (GMT)
__ __ Marianne -:- Happy Birthday Gerry! -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 15:54:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- Thanks everyone, it was a great day! -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 14:47:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- belated Happy Birthday -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 15:31:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ VP -:- happy belated GERRY gerry gErRy and the rest -:- Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 19:44:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Thanks Anth and ... -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 15:58:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Thanks Anth and ... -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 18:02:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- C-sections, no waiting... -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 18:35:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- C-sections, no waiting... -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 20:09:28 (GMT)

Robyn -:- Birthday's (ot) -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 14:54:59 (GMT)
__ raina -:- The real purpose behind a Ritual? -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 15:36:13 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- Birthday greetings? Not allowed in our ashram -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 20:21:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ raina -:- you mean Happy 'Grow Up Now' day don't you? -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 06:06:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- What? - and me in my second childhood? (nearly) -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 17:13:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ raina -:- 'Pitiful' was the word you used for me! -:- Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 00:02:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ raina -:- Birthday greetings? Not allowed in our ashram -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 23:39:33 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- There's nothing wrong... -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 15:28:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ raina -:- why do you use 'us' and 'we'? -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 01:42:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Elaine -:- why do you use 'us' and 'we'? -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 16:00:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ raina -:- i love mark twain -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 16:15:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- i love mark twain -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 18:32:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- So who were 'we, the people'? (nt) -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 18:48:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- a figment of Tom Jefferson's fantasy -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 23:43:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- On behalf of homosapiens sapiens -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 12:11:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ raina -:- no Anth Help me? please help me? -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 15:59:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ raina -:- p.s. just how forgettable you are..... -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 05:56:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ Robyn -:- There's nothing wrong... -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 18:04:31 (GMT)
__ __ Robyn -:- The real purpose behind a Ritual? -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 18:08:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ Elaine -:- Birthdays -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 20:36:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ raina -:- ew -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 06:54:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- ew -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 15:26:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- u should make a point to 'catch' her on the -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 23:43:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- u should make a point to 'catch' her on the -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 15:24:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- u should make a point to 'catch' her on the -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 16:12:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- YRU so down on 'this world', Elaine? -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 21:28:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- YRU so down on 'this world', Elaine? -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 15:43:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- WARNING! JONATHAN LIVINGSTON SEAGULL MENTIONED! -:- Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 01:30:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- YRU so down on 'this world', Elaine? -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 22:19:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ raina -:- The real purpose behind a Ritual? -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 20:31:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Robyn -:- The real purpose behind a Ritual? -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 00:55:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ raina -:- The real purpose behind a Ritual? -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 07:02:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Hi,raina -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 20:40:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- I read your reply, thanks, Elaine -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 01:56:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- I read your reply, thanks, Elaine -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 15:43:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ selene -:- can't resist -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 04:31:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- resistance is futile -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 13:56:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- thanks I will soon -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 16:24:52 (GMT)

CHR -:- 100 positives about M -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 09:34:40 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- I have 5 -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 17:32:26 (GMT)
__ keith -:- 100 positives about M -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 02:40:47 (GMT)
__ __ CHR -:- 100 positives about M -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 07:44:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ Keith -:- Who Maharaji and I really am! -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 15:23:17 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- 100 positives about M -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 10:14:43 (GMT)
__ __ CHR -:- 100 positives about M -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 01:57:54 (GMT)

CHR -:- There are worse gurus -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 09:12:02 (GMT)
__ Keith -:- There are worse gurus -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 02:36:25 (GMT)
__ __ la-ex -:- There are worse gurus -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 02:52:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ keith -:- There are worse gurus -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 06:38:57 (GMT)
__ bb -:- There are worse gurus -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 14:46:09 (GMT)
__ __ Keith -:- There are worse gurus -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 02:39:05 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Yeah...suppose so... -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 09:29:52 (GMT)
__ __ CHR -:- By the way -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 10:02:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- By the way -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 10:11:50 (GMT)
__ __ CHR -:- Yeah...suppose so... -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 09:51:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ hamzen -:- Yeah the art was always very new age/soviet propag -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 10:27:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Aaaaagh....don't remind me. -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 10:05:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- Aaaaagh....don't remind me. PRICELESS!!! (nt) -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 18:43:43 (GMT)

lotus Eater -:- A question -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 05:43:38 (GMT)
__ hamzen -:- You miss out one key question -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 10:42:57 (GMT)
__ __ Elaine -:- You miss out one key question -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 21:10:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ hamzen -:- Definitely the case of the exception proves -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 20:14:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- You miss out one key question -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 19:26:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Elaine -:- You miss out one key question -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 20:19:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- You mean he died happy because of M? (nt) -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 20:25:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- You mean he died happy because of M? (nt) -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 20:47:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- It's a miracle! So you 2 still talk? (nt) -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 17:39:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Nope,sorry. nt -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 18:34:48 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- A question -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 10:32:07 (GMT)
__ __ Elaine -:- A question -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 21:15:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ Susan -:- A question -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 04:54:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- Why would he bite one of the hands that fed him?nt -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 19:52:00 (GMT)
__ 25 year Premie/4 year Ex -:- On the subject of Jagdeo -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 07:46:41 (GMT)
__ __ Elaine -:- On the subject of Jagdeo -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 21:19:33 (GMT)
__ Marianne -:- Lesley? -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 06:14:26 (GMT)
__ __ L.Daily? -:- Lesley? nt -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 14:41:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ Marianne -:- Lesley? -:- Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 16:01:38 (GMT)


Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 00:12:00 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: Mishler
Message:
Bob Mishler's untimely death was tragic not just for family and friends but for first-generation premies and the deluded hordes that were to follow - and continue to follow. Imagine the contribution this first and former head of DLM might now be making to the ex-premie sites, or the effect his promised book might have had on subsequent cult fortunes had it appeared twenty years ago. For me, Mishler is a very credible witness, certainly the one man truly 'in the know' throughtout the 'seventies.

At the time of his radio interview (which as a recent initiate I had heard of but not heard), the official line in cult circles was that Mishler was a bitter and twisted man, now very much 'in his head'. After all, if Mataji and Bal Bagwanji could fall from Grace (as they had five years earlier) then how much easier must it be for a man not even raised in a Holy Family to hit the same patch of bad ice when ascending the slopes of Mount Glorious? The former head of Divine Light Mission was now an arrogant fool with broken leg and forthcoming book to puff, twisting the knife - as brutal as any other self-justifying Brutus. A shallow egoist unable to surrender to the Supreme Egoist (sorry - 'Lord'). The guy had lost it

Could happen. It would hardly be the first time thwarted ambition turned nasty - if you have ever browsed a political memoir. But are such accusations even plausible? I notice that whenever the Mishler interview is mentioned on the forum, the premie response has been to either doubt the man's credibilty or else his motivation. Significantly (?), no premie has yet replied: 'Probably true, but irrelevant' (Should we therefore read: 'Very damaging if true'?)

But shouldn't Mishler's manner have been nastier, his tone more aggressive - more self-(and book-) promoting? Is this really the interview a damaged loser would give?

If he wanted to write a 'Barefaced Messiah' bestseller (and that cusp of the 70's / 80's was a time ripe for such works) Mishler should have seized each opportunity. Instead we get something very different.

The interviewer throws Mishler an easy lob:

Host: There were rumors, and I don't know whether these rumors were based on any kind of fact or not, that he took advantage of several young women who were members of the Divine Light Mission, because of his position. To your knowledge, is any of that true?

Wouldn't the man with a publishing deal and an axe to grind - but no hard evidence - reply to this question something like:

'Well, d'you know, that might just be true. It was true of certain Mahatamas, so who's to say what else the guru was getting up to, given everything else we know about him? The guy is such a money-grabbing fraud I wouldn't put anything past him'

Instead we get this:

Bob: No, to my knowledge, that's not true. Although it was true that a number of his Mahatmas did that, and we had a number of problems with some of the Mahatmas on that level, I am not aware of Maharaji taking advantage of women followers.

There are numerous such wasted opportunities Mishler could have exploited during the interview had his character been that potrayed in official, party-line accounts. Instead Mishler comes across as humane and sympathetic. If anything, he 'praises with faint damnation', rather than vice-versa. He talks of Maharaji more in sorrow than anger, listening attentively and responding honestly to radio callers. You even get the impression that had M been willing to do a Krishnamurti and renounce his divine status, Bob might still be involved in what he believed to be a worthwhile, humanitarian cause, had his cult-leader cut back on personal spending and chucked out the pretences to divinity.

[In many ways, Bob Mishler reminds me of Michael Dettmers' recent posts to this forum: still very sympathetic to the young Prem Rawat. He was still only recently out of the cult and may have had a lot of personal stuff to yet sort out, as I suspect Dettmers has.]

I recommend all forum visitors read this interview (or re-read it if you haven't done so for a while) - premies, especially.

Read it carefully then ask yourself: Can you really suppose that Mishler's sincerity or integrity was ever less than your own... Especially given his day-on-day contact, year-in, year-out with that boy/god/man you have most likely only encountered very briefly (in darshan, perhaps) once or twice in your life?

Whether divine lila or just a very bad idea, Mishler brought M to the west and later came to regret it. All our lives were turned around by Mishler's earlier decision. Why shouldn't they be equally affected by his later one - if it hasn't happened yet?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 15:36:49 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Mishler
Message:
Nigel's quote)Instead Mishler comes across as
humane and sympathetic. If anything, he 'praises with faint
damnation', rather than vice-versa. He talks of Maharaji more in
sorrow than anger, listening attentively and responding honestly to
radio callers. You even get the impression that had M been willing
to do a Krishnamurti and renounce his divine status, Bob might still
be involved in what he believed to be a worthwhile, humanitarian
cause, had his cult-leader cut back on personal spending and
chucked out the pretences to divinity.
My response)I had no such involement back then. But the above description of Mishler warms me to him very much. And I often felt myself that if only M would do a Krishnamurti I would respect him so much more. I still find Krishnamurti's speech on renouncing 'the order of the star' one of the most moving I've ever heard. Your above words sum up so much for me Nigel.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 16:34:59 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Resignation letter
Message:
You know, I think it would be fabulous if M wrote a resignation letter to all.
Then, the premies could empower themselves more.I mean those that don't already ---like a friend of mine that goes into debt just to go to a program.
I'd like to see her just meditate once and deal w/ her life more,
instead of always running off for another fix that only lasts a few days.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 22:25:03 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Resignation letter
Message:
Yes Elaine. If only. The problem is that he would have to give up the whole shebang. It would take a magnificent effort to do that. Have you read Krishnamurti's resignation speech? Indeed, have you read any krishnamurti?
Your friend is typical. Devotees will 'walk a million miles for one of his smiles'.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 15:18:11 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Resignation letter
Message:
Years ago - didn't everybody? ;)

His letter's on the net - seems like I did. I'll ck it out again,tho.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 02:12:56 (GMT)
From: CHR
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Mishler
Message:
Its very difficult for premies to 'hear' anything negative about M unless they're really beginning to question already. I remember when the radio interview with with Mishler happened, around the time of the Denver 79 program. A double page newspaper spread appeared in the Denver Post as well where Mishler spoke very extensively about M, DLM, M's family etc. A few of us took the time to read it and I clearly remember us saying how Mishler's mind had really got hold of him etc. We thought that he was deluded,and twisted - a classic case of mind trying to get revenge on the truth.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 05:15:55 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: CHR
Subject: My Lord was so misunderstood.
Message:
I remember firmly bilieving that the discriptions of a 'cult'was the oddest lila.
How could something so insidious as a CULT resemble so exactly my lords holy zone?
This Maya was such an illusion that even the Divine could be seen to be evil!
How very blessed I was that he saved me this lifetime.
And oh how I pitied humanity for bieng blind to him who was walking in their midst.

Having recent contact with the premies from those days has proved to me thet if they still consider themselves premies, they for the most part are damaged emotionally and mentally. Arrested developement as Selene puts it.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 00:32:39 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Mishler great post
Message:
I heard recently that Mishler had a son from a previous marriage, before Eileen.

Wouldn't it be great if we could find that man and all write a letter and tell him what a great man we think his father was?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 15:52:11 (GMT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Mishler great post
Message:
amybe he has a copy of the book draft.
Or knows the family members who do have it.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 00:50:01 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Susan
Subject: Nice idea...
Message:
Thanks, Susan. I wonder, too, whether Mishler had a big file of background notes for the book he was writing - that might still exist in an attic somewhere?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 15:43:30 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: How can we find Mishler's
Subject: son? Any leads? I think we ought to thank him
Message:
since we cannot thank his Dad.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 01:51:48 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Susan
Subject: son? Any leads? I think we ought to thank him
Message:
I'll happily write Mishler Jnr. an email or letter if someone could give me a lead as to where I should send it.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 01:43:27 (GMT)
From: Denver ex
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Mishlers 'comrade in coupe' still around- is ex
Message:
His name is Hass Hassan and the word is that he is now in Boulder
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 16:40:29 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Denver ex
Subject: Mishlers 'comrade in coupe' still around- is ex
Message:
What exactly is a comrade in coupe? Thanks
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 19:43:32 (GMT)
From: Deaver Ex
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Mishlers 'comrade in coupe' still around- is ex
Message:
comrade= fellow,peer or associate
in= in
coupe= in movement against the status quo that rules

'Peer or associate in movement against the status quo that rules'

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 02:40:35 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Denver ex
Subject: Mishlers 'comrade in coupe' still around- is ex
Message:
Denver ex-would you have any idea how to contact'Hass', what he might know, what he might be willing to talk about?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 03:03:31 (GMT)
From: Denver ex
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Mishlers 'comrade in coupe' still around- is ex
Message:
He used to have a health food store in Boulder or Aspen.
Other health food store owners in Boulder may know him.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 03:07:06 (GMT)
From: Denver ex
Email: None
To: Denver ex
Subject: Mishlers 'comrade in coupe'
Message:
Boulder exs could ask around. I think it was a small place on Pearl Street.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 04:23:35 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: calling all exes in col.
Subject: Mishlers 'comrade in coupe'
Message:
Are there any exes living in the Boulder/Denver area who could check out Hass?
I also like the idea of the letter to Bob Mischler's son,maybe with a cc to m...
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 04:30:49 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: denver-ex
Subject: Mishlers 'comrade in coupe'
Message:
I found 21 'Hassan's' in colorado, on yahoo people search.Any ideas on other first names-no 'Hass' is listed as first name...
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 05:03:08 (GMT)
From: Denver Ex
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Mishlers 'comrade in coupe'
Message:
Another way around it is to contact one of the older health food stores Boulder. He is quite well known. But also private.
Whoever approaches him should be a good negotiator.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 22:30:28 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Will be in Boston Monday
Message:
Well, I conned my way out of doing the catering job in Worcester so I can be in Boston on June 12. Since there are already pictures of M's plane, what's a few more gonna do. Besides, my friend at Boston (Logan) Airport told me that M has changed his flight plan from Worcester to Boston (Logan), wonder why. Yes, M there is an spy working in the tower at Logan Airport.

I will be in the Copley area, sticking up my little Stickers:

JUST SAY KNOW
www.ex-premie.org
THE TRUTH ABOUT MAHARAJI IS OUT THERE

I figure the local eating establishments, tables, chairs, doors, bathrooms, towel dispensers, urinals, cash registers............
Did I leave anything out?

I've got my chalk, I may even bring my video camera, in case there is something worth taping. Anyone else intend to be there? If so, maybe our paths may cross.

I will work on Howie Carr all week, this week. I'm beginning to wonder if his assistant is a Premie, since I have had no response from them and my numerous emails. May also put the bug in the ear of a couple of news stations. Any other ideas?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 09:01:44 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: jondon
Subject: Jondon, please get AS MUCH INFO as you can
Message:
on his jet, flight details, pilot copilot
Jet's company, ID# etc

Could be extremely useful !

Track the rat, that's the new motto ......

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 01:01:47 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Jondon, please get AS MUCH INFO as you can
Message:
Yeah, that info would be real handy!

Oh, doesn't anyone have a radio scanner? You could hang out at the airport and get Maharaji contacting the tower for instructions.

And I've read that you can also listen (legally) to Air-to-ground or whatever it's called telephones.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 17:52:37 (GMT)
From: Mickey the Mole
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Jondon, please get AS MUCH INFO as you can
Message:
I know the co-pilot isnt a premie. Wonder how much he knows about his captain's shenanigans? Wouldnt pilot/ copilot names be listed on the flight plan?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 16:37:20 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Jean-Michel
Message:
Try Execucorp, Inc. That was the company that had something to do with the plane. Engineer: Bruce (not sure of last name). Pilot: His Royal Assholiness. Co-Pilot: Varies (But he knows nothing of Mr. Rawat's doings). Stewardess: Varies but are always Premies(Apparently the last one got pregnant and left after only a year of service as did one prior to her). His valet: Don't know his name.

Any way I can contact you off the Forum? And be sure it is you?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 17:01:24 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: jmkahn@club-internet.fr
To: jondon
Subject: Jean-Michel
Message:
here's my email, or use it from one of my websites (same one), or email to Brian or Katie, they'll forward it ....
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 23:08:47 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: jondon
Subject: Go fer it!
Message:
Yes, indeedy!

How about a picket sign with www.ex-premie.org?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 01:30:13 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Boston on Monday
Message:
Jondon
Congratulations on being proactive in this way. There are exs coming but they work locked and we are emailing Howie.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 19:23:17 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Newspeak
Message:
New sight

It is a pleasure
to harmonise with this point of
pure, wise beauty.
It is a wonder
to quench my thirst
with a drop of joy.
It is fantastic
to feel the harmonic
perfection
of happiness.
It is real,
a dream made possible,
renewed each day
by my own choice.
It is my life
fulfilled with this gift.
It is my vision:
endless gratitude
embraced from within with deep feeling..

Ivete Belfort Mattos
Sao Paolo, Brazil


Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 19:27:53 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Don't hold your breath
Message:
Waking up from the inside

What I felt was the same thing I wish I felt every day of my life. Gratitude, and connected to the one thing that really means something. To me, Maharaji is magic: the way he can bring out and clarify on such a unique subject. He is a treasure and I'm glad to be a part. I went home with the feeling that *yes* it is possible and I *can* do it. To me the most important mindset. That positivity, that certainty.

Bill Byrd
Newbury Park, Ca, USA


Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 23:28:55 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Jim
Subject: That positivity, that certainty.
Message:
God-f**king-damn! I used to talk like THAT?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 16:39:09 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Am I in a Cult?
Message:
As some of you know, I have a guru. He's an American, lives in Taos, studied with Rudi (Swami Rudrananda), Dilgo Khentse Rinpoche, and teachers from schools of Zen, Chinese medicine, as well as Westeren psychologists etc.

Lar has an organization (Grace Essence Fellowship)and students (a few hundred). Aside from writing, being a teacher is his only job. He has a small house and a small family.

I regularly dis Guru Maharaj Ji on this site, not because I think gurus and religions are for fools, but because Maharaj Ji in particular is a fraud.

So am I in a cult? I believe my teacher gives me tools, treasures, energies and techniques that enable me to be happier and stronger and kinder. (However, there is no observable or measurable evidence that this is the case. I may be just deluding myself.)

I do not worship my teacher, nor do I believe that he is omnipresent or in charge of my life somehow. However, I do believe he has 'mystical powers,' to put it in comic strip lingo.
Things have happened in his presence. (Again, it may be my belief system that prompts these 'experiences,' not any energy work on his part.)

I give money to the organization. I go to retreats to learn more.

On the other hand, I seldom talk about this stuff to anyone, having no desire at all to 'convert' others or convince them of my spiritual superiority; and my life has traveled an arc of increased involvement with people and an increasingly realistic appraisal of my own strengths and weaknesses.

So am in a cult? When I was with DLM we said 'No!' with a few standard explanations. I don't think I'm in a cult now...I'd call it a 'spiritual group'...but I could be wrong.

Am I in a cult?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 19:46:36 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Just for the record
Message:
Just for the record:

The OED (Oxford English Dictionary - the big one, that is, all 22 volumes of it) gives the origin of the word cult as:

[ad. L. cultus = worship (f. colere to attend to, cultivate, respect, etc.), and its F. adaptation culte (1611 Cotgr.). Used in 17th c. (? from Latin), and then rarely till the middle of the 19th, when often spelt culte as in French.]

1. Worship; reverential homage rendered to a divine being or beings.


So, if you really want to answer your own question, first you have to ask yourself one simple question: - do you worship this guy?

(and don't forget to tell us your answer!)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 20:33:44 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Just for the record
Message:
As I said in my initial post, 'I do not worship my teacher.'

However, during class with him, I do sit, upright and alert, and open myself to his presence. To some, that might seem to be worship. To me, it sure as hell isn't: I know, I used to worship a guru. That's a whole 'nother can of worms.

The difference is, I like the guy, but he isn't the kind of guy I'd choose for a friend. He's a little bit of a macho know-it-all type (like a lot of gurus, I'm afraid). But he's been studying this shit for thirty-five years, and he's great at teaching it. There have been results.

If he dies tomorrow, I won't freak out, looking for a successor. I don't need a guru. But I'm glad I've had one for a few of my years: I learned a lot.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 19:43:57 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: I think the definition of a cult
Message:
should be any organization or belief system that focuses on spirituality.

If it survives long enough it becomes a religion.

So yes I do think you're in a cult.

But we all have to succumb to compromise in our lives to get our jollies, sounds like the compromises you are making are minimal, so no beef.

If you were worried about cultish effects on you that you weren't aware of, well addictions a good one to look at.

Could you walk away from your guru tomorrow and never return, ever?
A serious contemplation of that as a possibility, ala The Dice Game principle, wouldd surely reveal some interesting emotions which would give you a good clue as to your unconscious balance of power etc etc

Oh and by the way, nice question.

Re the probability thing the other day, it was just over 50% can't remember the exact figure, but I can remember when I did it, it was my first serious lesson ever in probability, nearly all of us who couldn't work it out thought about 15-20%
That's the weakness of intuition for you!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 17:16:58 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Am I in a Cult?
Message:
Gregg,

Thanks for being so open and asking this question. I agree, that I think you are in a cult and I would recommend being very skeptical of it all, especially as to any 'mystical powers' you think the guru has, and also to analyze to whom or to what you attribute any experience you are having. Those are the big tricks of gurus and cults.

Also, do you ever talk to other members of this group? Is open criticism and doubt tolerated in those discussions, or are you made to feel deficient, stupid, or unrealized if you say anything like that? That is another big element of a cult -- low tolerance for dissent.

Also, the guru/disciple relationship, no matter how beneficent the guru might be, is an authoritarian system, and hence is ripe for abuse, and all kinds of problems. Maybe you haven't personally experienced them, but that doesn't mean the abuse isn't going on with others in the group, which, if you give money, is being partly supported by you.

If you haven't read 'The Guru Papers' by Kramer and Alstad, I hightly recommend it. It discusses authoritarian systems, using the guru/disciple relationship as a base, but more generally as well.

Good luck,

Joe

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 20:25:14 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Am I in a Cult?
Message:
Joe,

Thanks for your comments. I've not read The Guru Papers, but I'm familiar with some of the ideas, second-hand. Given the sad history of authoritarian abuse perpetrated by so many gurus in America, it's not surprising that books like this are out there. Andrew Harvey's book, after his renuciation of that Indian goddess guru in Germany, draws similar conclusions: do it on your own.

Regarding your other points: I heard one complaint from a pissed-off follower friend of mine, that my teacher allowed her husband to have an affair under his nose at a retreat, knowing he was married (they were both involved.) And a general complaint, that he casually throws out powerful techniques without regard to their impact.

I suppose if there were an ex page for this group, GEF, I might hear more complaints. This is one of the problems with cults, after all, that you only hear from the people who, like you, are still in the cult.

I know he isn't perfect (he's on his third wife...that's a sign of human imperfection, isn't it?), but: 1) he doesn't think he's a superman and 2) we do criticize him amongst ourselves, and question his methods in class occasionally. We are encouraged to doubt. We stick with his work because it works for us, and he is part of it all.

So, count me in, cult or not...but if I ever caught wind of unethical behavior on my teacher's part, believe me, I would not be among those who rationalize it.


Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 21:58:01 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Am I in a Cult?
Message:
Well, I don't know enough to really comment any more on whether this is a cult or not, but it certainly has the trappings of one.

Gregg, one of the things you probably learned from your time as a premie is to see pretty quickly if you are being manipulated. So, I suppose it's possible that you could be in a cult, but maybe it isn't harmful for you. But it's still a cult. And I would be VERY wary of it all. Again, I think the attributions of powers and where you nice experience comes from should be very thoroughly analyzed. Just exactly what proof do you have of any of that? And how much of it do you believe because it's nice to believe it?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 02:09:42 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Am I in a Cult?
Message:
How should we define the word'cult'. One strain seems to be that of suspending the belief in ones own capacity to question and think through issues. Replacing this with 'faith' in someones elses version of reality or significance. But this applies to all areas of our life. Is politics a cult? If not ,why not? Is education a cult? Do we not exist in a a network of cultish influences? if not,why not? I realise I'm streaching the meaning beyond the norm but is it not too blindly over simplistic to name one group a cult and then infer somehow that one is free of cultish mentality and emotionalism?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 00:33:14 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Am I in a Cult?
Message:
Keith,

Cults are basically outside the norms of society. They're alternative methods of living. They have their own leader(s). Those leaders are revered. People join cults to escape from the humdrum of mainstream society, thinking their freedom is the reward for doing so. Unfortunately, when they get into the cult, they realize that their freedom is even less than it was before they joined. Their options are narrower. The peer pressure to conform is immense, much more so than in mainstream society. And criticism of the cult leader is anathema. It just isn't done. After all, the reason people join a cult is to be led to paradise, something which they couldn't find in their 'normal' lives. If that belief that the elusive paradise, which could not be found in mainstream society, cannot be found in the cult, why bother? It becomes more of the same.

No, a cult is a subset of society created to accomplish what mainstream society cannot, to take the participants of the cult to a better life, the best life -- heaven on earth. NO DOUBT THAT THIS WILL BE ACHIEVED IS ALLOWED. And no doubt that the cult leaders can achieve this objective is allowed, either. It just wouldn't be a cult worth joining, otherwise. Who wants to be in a cult that doesn't take you ... THERE! It is imperative that the cult members believe that the cult leader has been to the mountaintop, and is capable of taking their followers there as well. Doubting this ends your membership in the cult, and it's back to the mainstream you go. Either that or you join another cult that you think will succeed where the last one failed. If you're dumb enough.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 17:12:31 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Am I in a Cult?
Message:
Well, if your premise is that all spiritual striving is bogus, then I am 'dumb.' However, I believe the path of spiritual enquiry and experience can bear fruit. Has borne fruit for me, in concrete as well as subjective ways.

I believe there are distinctions one can make between different spiritual groups, that they are not all destructive cults. In fact, even to one who believes God is a hoax, it should be apparent that the Espicopalians and the Moonies and the Taliban are not equivalent theologically or culturally or psychologically.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 02:14:56 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Am I in a Cult?
Message:
Gregg,

I'm not saying spiritual pursuit is bogus (that's another issue). I'm just trying to clearly define what a cult, as it is generally understood, is. If you, and your fellow disciples, believe that your guru is a gift from God that you don't say boo to, then yes, I would say you are in a cult. But if you merely think that he has some things to teach, in this one specific area (the spiritual one), but is flawed otherwise, I don't know if I'd go so far as to call what you're involved in a cult.

But I'm certain that your teacher is revered by at least SOME of his disciples, if not you. I mean, we are talking about a guru here, aren't we? What kind of guru doesn't get the royal treatment? Sounds like something is amiss, here. To be honest, Gregg, the whole guru trip is about singling out one individual and placing him on a pedestal as your personal saviour. Are you sure you're not doing this, and not just kidding yourself about it?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 17:40:25 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Gregg
Subject: Am I in a Cult?
Message:
Hi Gregg,

If Jerry has ever said that 'all spiritual striving is bogus' (which he may well have done), it wasn't in this post. I thought Jerry defined his terms pretty clearly here re. a cult being a subset of mainstream society in which a living person is revered and believed to hold the keys to everlasting happiness. Not even the 'infallible' Pope, speaking as 'God's representative on Earth' makes claims quite as extravagent.

As such it sounds like a pretty good definition of a cult to me, and one that distinguishes cults from other modes of religious practice.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 14:53:21 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Jerry
Subject: Great post, Jerry (nt)
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 01:47:52 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Thanks, Nige (nt)
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 00:30:02 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Gregg
Subject: Yes.
Message:
Well, you asked :-)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 00:23:42 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Am I in a Cult?
Message:
Gregg,

Yes, I think you are. But...that's given a pretty broad definition of cult. For instance, I knew, going in, M was a 'cult leader'. A friend actually showed me a textbook she'd read that mentioned M's cult. What I had to realize later, was that it was not just a cult...but not a good a cult..and in M see a fraud.

I think, as long as you are a free-thinking participant of this group...then you are still you and not prone to all the icky bad cult things.

I've asked myself similar questions about things I am a part of. Or even just of a people I like and admire. Like what if I am giving them too much credit or attributing too many positive qualities to them?

Do I let the manipulative M experience jade me from ever believing in someone or some group again? Do I always keep on guard?

When I ask myself these things, I always come back to one thought, 'Trust Yourself'. Now if only I didn't have so many voices in my head.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 20:09:40 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: 'jade me', like it, very poetic
Message:
When I ask myself these things, I always come back to one thought, 'Trust Yourself',

yet that is exactly how we ended up in this mess, pile of shit, etc & gm!

I've met people who had visions of gm before meeting any premies, heard about etc, one of them saw him with a crown on his head,

whoa you might think, heavy shit, signs etc, especially if you're a suscetible hippy type,

but since then I've met followers of both sai baba, rajneesh and some other guru whose name I can't remember, who'd all had similar experiences of their guru before knowing about hearing etc

How can one possibly know? anyone going down any organized, on any level, spiritual route is laying themselves open to abuse, and will never know until after, the true effects of their route.

I personally am as convinced as I can be, that any 'spiritual' desires that lean to groups has to be accepted as a sign of weakness. Nothing you experience or learn there can be experienced or learnt, except from within your own head, the potential for those experiences is already there. The main messages are all out there freely available, waiting to be used.

No need for head pollution risks from others being amplified.

Couldn't imagine any other response now, that way you know nothing but your own route, & can reap the rewards or not without great risks.
A rather demanding route, but I'd rather drown now than be saved by any guru, so my views might not be the most relevant around!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 21:45:36 (GMT)
From: Arthur
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Am I in a Cult?
Message:
I surely believe it's a cult!

Because you think your guru has powers.
You start to believe he has powers, then you beleive he has, then you are certain he has ,then you start to worship him. It's always the same patern.

Because a real guru is a guru by himself. He learns with life, real life. He does'nt search for pupils who can be devotees thereafter.

Because you give money to the organization. As soon as money is involved, it's a cult.

Be cause also I'm realy tired of all those oriental, indians or tibetan names and swamis and mahatmas, all this bullshit and crap.

The real guru does'nt exist. It's a myth created by people searching for truth. So some very wise and crooked persons make profits (prophets) of the weakeness of others. It's the same thing with all religions and religious mouvements.

It's my very hummble opinion.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 02:30:55 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Arthur
Subject: Am I in a Cult?
Message:
Arthur, do you not project 'powers' onto someone? Sure, the guru type of authority is a
biggun , but so is the president. So was my schoolteacher. So were my parents. So
were many . So are many. That is, big influences on my thinking and belief system.
They were not all bad influences. When is a cult really a cult? When is a group with
leadership not a cult? I'm not trying to be clever here. I feel to open out this subject. I
feel we bandy words like cult about as if we all know what we are referring to. I'm not
so sure. And in regards to Maharaji, what are the most negative cultish tendencies?
and are there non cultish aspects too? For me, there were both. Both in the behavior of
premies and in Maharaji's own persona and performance. One last question. Even if
we were to conclude that maharaji and elan vital were especially high up in the cult
stakes are cults always destructive? or can they be really positive for some if not
many?
Not for us perhaps, but are we not a minority? Are there not more premies than ex's?
Could it be that 'they' or many of 'them'are growing through their involvement? I did
until I no longer did.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 02:47:22 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Am I in a Cult?
Message:
Keith-you ask-'aren't there many more premies than exes?'.
By most accounts, about 5-10%of the premies still come around in any way, shape or form.I know many of them, and very few of them practice in any way that meets m's standard of 1 hour/day.
So, even stretching the definition of a practicing premie, about 90-95% have left.

Can you explain how there are more premies than ex-premies?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 06:32:04 (GMT)
From: keith
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Am I in a Cult?
Message:
Is that so? Okay. I was only going on here-say and impression.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 19:08:48 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: keith
Subject: Sometimes Keith???? stretching credence
Message:
Maybe I'm being really nasty here, maybe I'm being rather too polite, but I just can't believe that in the time you were around here you never heard that mentioned, or that in your time around premie communities you couldn't see with your own eyes the shrinking numbers???
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 22:17:19 (GMT)
From: keith
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: with my own eyes
Message:
I never associated much with many premies. I know of some who have moved on like me, but most of those faces that are familier to me, I saw over and over again at events, year after year. Hence the impression that most premies remained premies.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 19:43:02 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Am I in a Cult?
Message:
My initial reaction to your post was that you're not in a cult. I was just going to respond by saying you're not in a cult, but then I paused, and thought 'not so fast'.

Like anything else, cults have 'degrees' or 'levels'; some are more cultish than others. In any case, your's isn't an exteme cult, obviously. But to say it isn't a cult at all might not be true.

The only two things you said that might reveal this is a cult were:

However, I do believe he has 'mystical powers,' to put it in comic strip lingo. Things have happened in his presence. (Again, it may be my belief system that prompts these 'experiences,' not any energy work on his part.)

and...

I believe my teacher gives me tools, treasures, energies and techniques that enable me to be happier and stronger and kinder.

It's suspicious that you say your teacher has mystical powers. There shouldn't be any guesswork about something like that but there always is. If this guy really has mystical powers it should be crystal clear. Usually the most a guru can do is make someone 'wonder' if he doesn't have mystical powers. That's because the guru really doesn't but makes it seem like he does.

If the guru doesn't have mystical powers (which I'd be willing to bet about 10% of all my property that he doesn't) then your belief that he does, opens all sorts of doors to the influence of a cult. It just puts you in a position of weakness to believe that if it isn't totally true.

Another red flag is the phrase 'he gives me energies and treasures'. This also could be innocent or even true (for all I know) but it does open the door for putting you at a disadvantage in the same way cult members are.

On the other hand, if you're really getting your jollies, it might not matter if you're in a cult... until later.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 20:06:12 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: Am I in a Cult?-P-man/Gregg
Message:
Excellent post - I agree.

Gregg or anyone could make anything a cult, of course - even if the others in the group aren't acting that way.

Look at the fanaticism in that TV commercial of the couple that tries to get a picture of Tony the Tiger. So I think any individual can turn their feelings into a cultish fanaticism thinking that something other than themselves is 'giving' them an exp.

My 2 cents,

Elaine

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 20:48:23 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Maharaji's cult
Message:
In a forum such as this, it's important to distinguish between 'cultish behavior' and a cult. A cult has identifiable qualities that impair a person's thinking and relationships, while cultish behavior can be applied to anything, even cornflakes.

The difference between Tony the Tiger and Maharaji is that while Tony is just a cartoon drawing, Maharaji is the deliberate leader of a real live cult.

Maharaji, for many years, claimed he was God, and insisted that his followers surrender the reigns of their lives to him. Although his followers obeyed this command to varying degrees, it was the rule to exhibit cultish behavior, not the exception.

Maharaji seriously hurt many people and then deceptively pretended he never did it. He refined his lying and cheating but he didn't stop it.

There should never be any mistake here that Maharaji is a cult leader and that premies (if they follow Maharaji's advice) are in a cult.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 23:36:56 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: Maharaji's cult
Message:
Thanks for your perceptive comments. It is dangerous, as you point out, to 'follow' a 'teacher'. It's really just like taking a course of study, but there is more personal investment in studying spiritual work.

And it might all blow up in my face some day. But four years in Maharaj Ji's cult really turned me into a zombie; fifteen years in this cult has made me a more tolerable person.

I'll keep you posted.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 20:59:47 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: Maharaji's cult
Message:
Yes, I agree again.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 19:16:02 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Whatever the name it's a dog and pony show
Message:
Gregg,

The fact is that if you could read your 'teacher's' mind it's just like yours. Same shit, different vessel. The rest is all make believe.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 23:40:17 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Pavlov's dog, Darwin's pony
Message:
I'm surprised at you, Jim, suggesting I employ mind-reading as scientific method.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 19:12:41 (GMT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Am I in a Cult?
Message:
I think the popular use of the word cult depends strongly on personal associations.

Teachers can have a lot of value. It's up to the individual and her own personal experience as to whether the relationship with the teacher has value.

I now have a few teachers or gurus in the Buddhist tradition. They don't set themselves up as any particular special entity but I experience very beautiful experiences, experiences I can get nowhere else.

Buddhism also teaches that the whole shebang is empty, teachers, student, the Buddha, our world. I've been doing a lot of meditation on this idea. It's always been obvious to me that my relationship with physical reality is 'empty'. This is a fairly common experience for us near-death survivors. What's been harder for me to see has been that the emptiness also includes the spiritual phenomena.

Emptiness does not mean non-existence. The deep and fundamental understanding of emptiness is considered to be a very significant and important realization. One has to know it in one's bones.

Emptiness is about the 'co-dependent origination', that is, nothing is real on it's own, but only in interrelationship. What is bad in the hands of one can be a valuable tool in the hands of another. Is the thing 'bad' or 'valuable'? Depends on the relationship.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 21:15:36 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Bobby and Gregg
Subject: Bobby and Gregg
Message:
SOunds like existentialism, Bobby, we give essence (meaning) to the forms--
How are you? The CD you made Gary is wonderful, and I noticed many similarities in our music tastes.

Gregg--I can't tell you whether you are in a cult. Am I in a cult because I am a Universalist who believes in God? My only clue that something is wrong is that you asked the question--and that you describe your teacher as a bit of a know it all. I wouldn't want a teacher like that, who acts like that. SOrry I can't give you any further advice--I don't have enough info about it!!

I do know that being around other people can be inspiring. For example, when I sat next to Bobby on the beach, I just wanted to meditate. But does that make Bobby my 'teacher'? No, not in the sense of your teacher is to you. Surely, Bobby is *a* teacher to me, just as many people are. I will never give that kind of power the power to be 'my spiritual teacher' to any human. (Hope you don't mind being used as an example, Bobby).

If this inspiration is what you mean by your teacher's 'power' or essence (or whatever term you used) --I say, be inspired but be careful that you're not giving him too much power.

He's only human after all, (as exhibited by his three divorces). I love that Billy Joel song 'You're only human, you're SUPPOSED to make mistakes.'

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 23:29:23 (GMT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Bobby and Gregg
Message:
Hi Helen,

Yeah, but existentialism tends to have a negative base. According to the Buddhist teachings, the other all-important component to emptiness is compassion.

How am I? I'm in my own private emotional 'storm at sea' today, but I've been here before and I'll get through. Overall, things are pretty good. My health is good as of today. I feel really blessed.

I'm reading Jack Kornfield's new book After Ecstasy, the Laundry. Ten years ago I was doing book reviews for a new age circular. For some reason I started again, after a hiatus of many years, getting review copies of books. Ain't that great?

The book is excellent.

Here's a quote by Helen Keller I love that Kornfield includes in the book:
Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of humans as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing. - Helen Keller

BTW, did you read that paper I sent you? Please tell me your impressions of my presentation, good or bad. You could email me privately if you like. Please also let me know how Gary is doing.

RE: teachers and gurus. My Buddhist tradition has many lamas (gurus, teachers, blah, blah). They are all Buddhas and very human and I regard them as both. You're a Buddha too and a beautiful lady.

I have lamas both in the flesh and in non-ordinary reality. They are very real for me.

Here's a funny story. The word lama reminds me of the llama toenail rattle I was given as a present years ago. When I told my son that the dangling rattle pieces were the toe-nails of a llama, Kenny got grossed out, thinking they were human lama toenails. Talk about lotus feet! Actually, my yoga does involve human body parts, both real and imagined, but not the body parts of my incarnate lamas! Haha!

Love,

Bobby

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 00:26:01 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: Bobby and Gregg
Message:
Bobby,
Glad to hear that you are in general doing well. Writing reviews sounds really interesting. Bobby, I am so sorry if I spaced out something you sent me (a paper??) PLEASE email it again. DId you send it snail mail? Did you address it to Gary's email? If so, it probably went the same way as his dirty laundry (which we fondly call Mt. Washmore)--I guess Gary hasn't read that Kornfeld book--about doing the laundry--ha ha. And it's nothing personal, it's just a guy thing. Anyway send it to me at HelenRDC@aol.com....would love to read it. I'll email you privately with any comments. Would also like to read any reviews you write....
Llama toenails--ha ha--that would be gross to a child, though!-
I liked the Helen Keller quote, she should know!!
Love
Helen
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 00:35:46 (GMT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Helen and Mt. Washmore
Message:
>>>If so, it probably went the same way as his dirty laundry (which we fondly call Mt. Washmore)--

Helen, why do you call the laundry pile Mt. Washmore?
Cause you need to 'wash more' or because you see images of dead presidents in the laundry pile?

I see images of dead presidents every day on money. I feel lucky I don't revere their images. Some do it seems........

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 23:31:42 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: Buddhist practice
Message:
Yes, and these 'spiritual phenomena' can get in the way of understanding. As a premie, I craved the weird lights and festival bliss. As a quasi-Buddhist, I take it as it comes...opening up to not-knowing.

And this is where it starts sounding like cultic practice, in that I try to relax/ignore/erase cultural programming in favor of unvarnished experience...similar to a cult's M.O. of cutting ties to society and family. But different. Buddhist practice reconnects one to the whole of humanity rather than contributing to the greedy isolation corporate culture prefers we live in.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 00:08:45 (GMT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Buddhist practice
Message:
Yes cultural programming is heavy. Cultural cult. Certainly the corporate media attempts to program us into buy, buy, buy. Happiness is sex and money.

And certainly spiritual phenomena get in the way of understanding. It's been my problem to get stuck with the highs of the phenomena and I've had quite a few.

Recently I got a Buddhist initiation that is loaded with phenomena. Actually that's working to deal with my craving for the highs. The teaching remains that it's all empty.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 02:43:16 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: Buddhist practice
Message:
Nice to read your posts again Bobby. Hope you are on the recovery road, healthwise.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 23:52:34 (GMT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Buddhist practice
Message:
Hi Keith, thanks for the good wishes.
Health and happiness back at you.

Bobby

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 01:17:22 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: Buddhist practice
Message:
Hi, Bobby,

Let me join Keith in wishing you the best. You sound well. I hope you are.

Buddhism is cool, I suppose. I'm reading a book called 'Consciousness At The Crossroads'. It's the transcript of a two day discussion, on the nature of consciousness, that took place between some leading scientists from the west and the Dalai Lama. He was pretty cool. He went there to learn something, and expressed interest in having his own concepts ammended if there was enough evidence to warrant him doing so. I admire his humility and his willingness to test his own beliefs in the interest of advancing his understanding. While a whole nation bows at his feet, he pretty much admits that he hasn't got it all figured out. I'm impressed.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 18:20:04 (GMT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Buddhist practice
Message:
The Dalai Lama always speaks of questioning everything and always using only what works.

Buddhism for me holds the deepest and best way to work with life, death and spirit. Death has great meaning for me and opens me to the gift of life. For thirty years I've been trying to answer the visions I had thirty years ago around the time of my near-death. I continue to find real answers with Tibetan Buddhism. Some of this I've written up in as an essay I have posted here:

Visionary Encounters with Cancer and Buddhism


Years ago I read the text of another conference between the Dalai Lama and western scientists called:

Gentle Bridges - conversations with the Dalai Lama on the Sciences of Mind. He spoke with Dr. Jeremy Hayward, holding a PhD in nuclear physics from Cambridge University and Francisco Varela, holding a PhD in biology from Harvard.

Thanks for the good wishes. Good wishes back to you.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 06:36:31 (GMT)
From: keith
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Buddhist practice
Message:
Me too. The dalai lama is 'cool'.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 16:50:18 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: sounds more like a club to me...
Message:
Does Lars have a website? And who was Rudi again? A devotee of Muktananda, I think. And Muktananda DID have some big mojo going for him, no doubt. It's all rather confusing. Read Satyam Nadeen's book Onions to Pearls. Simplifies and cleans things up and you get to understand there's nothing to do to get 'there' as there is no 'there' there. (Now wasn't that clear and simple? LOL at myself.)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 19:26:56 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Well gerry, for some reason the thought of you
Message:
as a freewheeling zen buddhist has created one of those little reality shifts where at least for the moment everything is brighter visually and seems more alive, and it came from a moment of complete shock!!

you get to understand there's nothing to do to get 'there' as there is no 'there' there.

Oh by the way, love the quote
but then I must be weird, because what could be simpler??

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 17:52:40 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: sounds more like a club to me...
Message:
Yeah, I guess club is a good word.

Lar Short doesn't have a website (unlike most of the new gurus today...and there are too many to keep up. Strange: although most of us think of the seventies as the age of the guru, they seem to have proliferated like weeds, not died down. A lot of them seem to be followers of Papaji or Ohso/Rajneesh.)

Yes, Rudi was a devotee of Muktananda, and especially of Muktananda's guru, Nityananda. Rudi died in a plane crash in 1973.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 14:58:14 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Happy Birthday gErRy! :)
Message:
Dear Gerry,
You may well be the birthday swan song so enjoy, you hairy Korean! :) How could I skip your day, my birthday buddy! I hope you have a great day, we are having a beautiful day here to celebrate it for you. I'll be out there in a minute thinking of you. :)
What's going on today for you, friends, quite romance with Patty? Whatever, have a great day.
Love ya,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 19:35:58 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Here's to one more candle on your cake, mate!
Message:
... roll on second childhood!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 19:54:28 (GMT)
From: Padre Michael
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Feliz Cumpleaos!
Message:
Gerry, it sounds as if you have a great day planned, and I wish you a great year.

Padre

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 17:25:06 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Happy Birthday gErRy! :)
Message:
And, trite as it may sound, many happy returns. The fishing village scenario makes me drool. Also, your remake of South Pacific (North Pacific?) in the balmy surf is just the ticket to celebrate a b-day.

(BTW, I'm a 'girl,' (or grrrl as my husband puts it).

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 15:18:53 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Happy Birthday gErRy! :)
Message:
Hi Robyn!

It's still pretty early here yet but I already got my presents from Patty: A cribbage game, a portable chess board and a software program to learn chess. She always (and I mean ALWAYS) beats me in chess but revenge is nigh.

We are packing a picinic lunch and heading to Westport (little fishing village on the coast) for the day. I'll take my 'crabbing' equipment and we'll have a feast of Dungeness crab tonight. And of course, torrid sex in the balmy surf...

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 01:53:22 (GMT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: Happy Birthday gErRy! :)
Message:
Have a great birthday gErRy!
And watch out for those crabs!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 01:06:49 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: Happy Birthday gErRy! :)
Message:
Dear Gerry,
Sounds like a great b-day! Sure any rain couldn't ruin it either. I remember a quite romantic night at a private lake in the pouring rain. :) In fact I was a premie so it isn't even off topic! :)
Love,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 19:50:22 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: Happy Birthday gErRy! :)
Message:
Ah, gErRy! Happy Birthday! I have so much to be thankful to you for. Where would I be without your brilliant and unheralded contributions?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 15:18:41 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Happy Birthday Gerry!
Message:
(I'm ascared of that gErRy guy!) Hope you enjoy the day with Patty and the cat-boys.

Many happy returns...
Katie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 15:54:04 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Gerry/gErRy
Subject: Happy Birthday Gerry!
Message:
Happy birthday to both personas. I love 'em both! Sounds as though you have a great day planned, as long as those famous Pacific Northwest rains cooperate.

Hi to Patty.

Love, Marianne

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 14:47:16 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Thanks everyone, it was a great day!
Message:
Though the crabs were elusive the sunshine was fine.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 15:31:46 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: belated Happy Birthday
Message:
and many more of them (birthdays, not crabs).

Anth the Cesarian

(Who did you get crabs from by the way?)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 19:44:00 (GMT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: gERRY
Subject: happy belated GERRY gerry gErRy and the rest
Message:
Hope you are keeping your gemini twins in line.
Have a great summer,
VP the Scorpio
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 15:58:28 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Thanks Anth and ...
Message:
I'm a C-section birthee, too. That really fucks up the astrologists' gig, btw...
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 18:02:17 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Thanks Anth and ...
Message:
Dear Gerry,
Glad you had a good day, glad the crabs are safe. :)
I had 2 c-sections and was very upset about them 'taking' my babies before they were ready but would be interested to know any info you have about the particulars.
I did go into labor with my first but not the 2nd, they told me if I did they'd 'punish' me but not letting me have a spinal so I could be awake! God damn controling assholes! :)
Love ya,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 18:35:25 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: C-sections, no waiting...
Message:
Don't remember much about the particulars, Robyn, but my mom had six of 'em before they did a hysterectomy. She almost died, very jaudiced with the last one. I recall my dad gathering all us kids (five at the time) and telling us we have to be brave and accept the will of god as it looked like mom might not make it. The poor thing, they shoulda put a zipper in her...
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 20:09:28 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: C-sections, no waiting...
Message:
Dear Gerry,
And a new piece to the puzzle that is you! :) One of 6 kids! I am the middle of 5 girls.
When I was pregnant with Jess, my first, there was a woman ahead of me who just found out that instead of having her 12th child she'd be having her 12th and 13th! She was UPSET, apparently wanted her tubes tied but her husband wouldn't hear of it! Fucker.
On that happy note...
Love,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 14:54:59 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Birthday's (ot)
Message:
Hey kids,
Don't know quite how to proceed re: birthdays. In the past we have had a thread where people could tell me their b-days if they'd like. Some people have even emailed me as they didn't want them noted on the forum and I would send emails. Now with my discovery of blind carbon copy I could make it a more group thing and keep it off the forum for those that enjoy it. I would never send a group thing to someone who didn't want their b-day known though.
Of course I like them on the forum but as a birthday goddess, even a faulty one, how could I not. Also I wouldn't be insulted at all if it was stopped all together, I mean I am not a birthday task mistress! :)
So I am putting this out there for opinions and or birthdays to record in my book.
I will post one last b-day thread as there is one today and I don't want to miss it if we may continue this fun/spirited side of posting.
Love,
The Birthday Goddess
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 15:36:13 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: The real purpose behind a Ritual?
Message:
Not unlike getting a birthday card from your dentist and his ulterior motives. Even Maharaji doesn't do that!

To actually 'organize' such a tradition seems somehow inappropriate, considering what the site is about?

It's one thing for someone to feel moved to remember someone's birthday because they were somehow special to them, (or for others to join in a greeting).....otherwise it's 'going-thru-the motions' and perpetuating the popularity contest type mindset.

To actually turn it into a contrived ritual??? (Why bother? In fact the whole routine only undermines the meaning of someone who really IS special to you...which is the whole point no?)

If you were to ever post an 'H.B.' to me, I can just imagine what GerRy and Jim types would post! So as much as your intentions might be to create a little neutral niche.....I wonder what really is the point? Will we be graded on the 'niceness' quality of our poster's well wishes?

(I'm not saying I'm against it...just sharing a thought out loud).

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 20:21:14 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: Birthday greetings? Not allowed in our ashram
Message:

As if THAT wasn't enough of a reason to celebrate them again!

Happy birthday Raina! (belated and premature!)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 06:06:22 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: you mean Happy 'Grow Up Now' day don't you?
Message:
yup-my buddy CQ calling me pathetic...and worse.....

have you, or anyone else for that matter, ever seen me go on the offensive, out of the blue (at someone who wasn't attacking (or addressing me with their unasked for opinions)first that is)? no.....never......

but how wonderful everyone is share their opinions........i've never seen so many perfect people in one place in my life! what an honor!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 17:13:47 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: What? - and me in my second childhood? (nearly)
Message:
Raina, you ask: 'Have you ... ever seen me go on the offensive, out of the blue...?'

Well, as it happens, yes, and that's a freedom we all have. If you want to get mad at me with or without a reason, that's up to you to decide. You don't have to wait for me to address you with an unsolicited opinion first, regardless of what Anton LaVey might have taught.

But, of course, that works both ways.

I begin to see the way you sometimes engineer situations until you think you're in a position that quote 'justifies' your righteous indignation. Like now. (I never knew two simple words like 'Happy Birthday' could mean so much).

Not that I'm suggesting you quit sounding off. If you need to get it out of your system - so be it. But, as a wise old idiot once said to me: just be aware of the games you're playing with yourself.

I hope we can still communicate, despite the differences of our opinions.

(PS - I never called you 'pathetic' - I simply said that your habit of blaming others for 'making you' do things was 'sad'. And then I said 'grow out of it', - 'grow up' is a phrase I wouldn't use.)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 00:02:09 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: 'Pitiful' was the word you used for me!
Message:
my mistake....it wasn't 'pathetic' it was 'pitiful'......that was the word YOU used.
(and of course notice you couldn't try to prove me wrong about without actually siting an example (about 'attacking' people out of the blue etc......how convenient for your baseless argument.)

CQ Wrote:

'Raina, (or Rawi, whoever you are) that is seriously sad.
I don't know how old you are, but an attitude like that is just ... well, ...
pitiful. No hard feelings, y'know, but just - grow out of it now!!

OK, school of hard knocks in recess.

Your turn next.'

surely you knew how meaningful 2 little words like 'Happy Birthday' were when you were 7 no? (not that you're point is made any clearer here anyway. since i was originally pointing out ( TO ROBYN) the POSSIBLE inappropriateness of turning YOUR forum into a Hallmark greeting card.......and my 'sounding off' post to you was in reaction to your calling me 'pitiful' and SIMPLY how disappointing that was......

but of course I am the one with the 'clarity' problem.....u keep telling yourself that dear.....

i did like the bumper sticker idea however

it's up there with 'Nice People Swallow'.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 23:39:33 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Birthday greetings? Not allowed in our ashram
Message:
cq-when you say in 'our ashram'?
do you mean singular or plural? (ashramS?)
did Maharaji actually forbid it?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 15:28:15 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: There's nothing wrong...
Message:
...with wishing somebody 'Happy Birthday' Raina.

Rituals are very important. They make us feel like we belong to something, and bind us together.

Joseph Cambell said every form of human interaction is ritualistic, and I think he may have been onto something.

Anth who has two birthdays

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 01:42:48 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: why do you use 'us' and 'we'?
Message:
i can't honestly remember a time in my life when i've EVER spoken for anyone other than myself. notice, for example in this post. I am speaking about ME, MYSELF, and I?

Since I majored in Comparative Religion in College, Anth, I know how 'to spell' ritual...(i also know how to spell Joseph Campbell...)

But your post was brilliant, insightful, purposeful, and mesmerizing none-the-less...I'm sure 'EVERYONE' appreciates you speaking for 'them'.........

I'm going to make a mental note: 'There's nothing wrong with wishing someone Happy Birthday.' Is that right? I think i got it! Here let me try it again:
'There's nothing wrong with wishing someone Happy Birthday.''There's nothing wrong with wishing someone Happy Birthday.''There's nothing wrong with wishing someone Happy Birthday.''There's nothing wrong with wishing someone Happy Birthday.''There's nothing wrong with wishing someone Happy Birthday.''There's nothing wrong with wishing someone Happy Birthday.'

I'm a little worried about forgetting this tho....it is a complicated and difficult concept to absorb...................i'm so lucky!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 16:00:12 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: why do you use 'us' and 'we'?
Message:
You know what Mark Twain said about people who use 'we'?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 16:15:09 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: i love mark twain
Message:
but no...tell me?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 18:32:27 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: i love mark twain
Message:
The only people who should use 'We' - are Kings,editors and people w/ tapeworm.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 18:48:45 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: So who were 'we, the people'? (nt)
Message:
So who were 'we, the people'? (nt)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 23:43:04 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: a figment of Tom Jefferson's fantasy
Message:
and i doubt AJW or Jim would ever pass for a Thomas Jefferson....
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 12:11:55 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: On behalf of homosapiens sapiens
Message:
Raina,

touchy today aren't we.

You have the wonderful ability to take something simple and turn it into a conspiracy. Are you a cop?

When I said, 'Rituals are very important. They make us feel like we belong to something, and bind us together.' I was only speaking for myself, but I was commenting on the benefit that rituals have, and have had, for humanity in general. I was speaking as a member of the human race. So, when speaking about our species as a whole, I think it's OK to say 'Us' and 'We'. It doesn't mean, as you infer, that I have appointed myself spokesman for the human race.

Get it yet Raina?

Anth the totally forgetable.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 15:59:30 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: no Anth Help me? please help me?
Message:
help me get it?

why did you feel you needed to again post something TO ME-that says ABSOLUTELY nothing?
the subtle condescending, 'i know more than you' tone is what amazes me..........

is it possible that one day i could be as smart as you?

are you a teacher?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 05:56:48 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: p.s. just how forgettable you are.....
Message:
for some reason, posts that i've already read in an ATTACK THREAD (another that is) started by JIM down there about to disappear, were coming up as 'unread' and so i just made the mistake of reading one of your insulting bullshit (and as usual pointless) commentaries........

The only reason i posted in this thread here 2 U today...is because I don't even remember who you are!!! do you get that? not because I'm 'confused' or 'on drugs' as you love to write 2 me......but because you and your MALICE are the epitome of pointlessness....and simply forgettable...

so, in the future, if i ever reply to something you may post to me? keep in mind, that it's only because i've forgotten you and your 'opinions' that quickly and easily ok?

Oui don't like you Mr. Braincelless......

gone in a snap..........

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 18:04:31 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: There's nothing wrong...
Message:
Dear Anth,
And who gave you the 2nd birthday? Hmmmmmmmmm. The birthday goddess, of course. It is coming right up too. :)
Love,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 18:08:25 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: The real purpose behind a Ritual?
Message:
Dear raina,
Thanks, no offense at all. Funny because I am mostly against rituals, religous and the ones of my new age friend to. They feel put on for me although I have read about people who get a lot out of them.
Another curious thing about my relationship to birthdays, when I was a premie I worked at a little zoo and became the birthday lady there too. I hung out in these towers connected by a bridge way up high. I set up for b-day parties for kids whose parents paid for the little pkg the zoo offered for such occassions. Friends came to visit me in my tower on their breaks. It was great fun, then when I had kids I would get right into it and made elaborate pinatas, parrot, cat, monkey, anything they wanted. I don't know why but apparently I have some connection with b-days. Weird I know. And this 'position' just kind of came about/evolved.
I guess I don't see it as a popularity thing although I can see your point there. I just think it is fun to celebrate another years passing. Not all of mine have been good birthdays for sure but I usually pamper myself in some way and think about the year to come and what I want my attitude to be etc. More so then on New Year's Eve for me.
I am not so into this that I can't drop it as I mentioned, whatever the consensus of this thread bears out. The other thing that I've noticed is that people don't seem to get nasty in b-day threads. Never thought about the miraculousness(sp) of that before and someone only need to be involved at either end if they so choose.
PS. I check the writing forum for you every once in a while, hear you are considering.
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 20:36:14 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Robyn/raina
Subject: Birthdays
Message:
Just read in a book - probably one by Sylvia Browne - how birth into this world is cause for...something...but not rejoicing,
(from 'the other side's' perspective)....and death on this side would be cause for rejoicing on the other side as your coming back over.

Hope that made sense the way I said it.
It made perfect sense the way I read it.

Again my 2 cents,
Elaine

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 06:54:37 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: ew
Message:
hello elaine-
i think i missed something in your other post dwn below?

but..mor importantly ...Sylvia Brown? ohmygod? not that one-woman horror show that's always on Montel Williams (i swear i have never watched that show! but notice these things!)

if that is her?............she is so incredibly vile isn't she? talk about about full-of-it? no?
cheezy after-life entertainment crap?

clue me in?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 15:26:17 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: ew
Message:
Don't know her fr TV - only fr one book and started a few pages of another that seems better - a hardcover for $25 - so I just slip off w/ coffee in a loveseat at Barmes and Noble and read it sometimes.

Ya know-I find that it's the spirit or entities these mediums channel I listen too -not the person. Ruth Montgomery was a pretty messed up person and drank alot - but the spirits that came thru were great.
But, one big thing in front of the bk by Sylvia - was that she said really importantly was ----take out stuff that you like and discard anything else - that goes for anything and everything. I mean how could you not like someone that tells you that before reading their own bk?

I don't go by looks - she does look like a gypsy.

I guess she's had 'the gift' since she was a little girl - generational. She has helped a tremendous amount of people - doesn't charge to find missing people stuff like that - she's quite accurate.

Some stuff is pretty wild - her guide is Francine that lived only one life here on Earth in the 400's as an Aztec/inca tall dark woman that worried the last two years of her life constantly that the Spaniards were going to come and kill them --- they did ---but she says - she wouldn't have lived 2 yrs in fear - if she did it over. Now see I thought that was inspiring.

When she talks to audiences - some others that can see spirits will ask her -'Who was that tall woman standing behind you on stage?'

I had a friend that could see spirits - but she didn't tell alot of people bec the reaction was usually that she was weird.
She was afraid of her 'gift' - but it would be fun bec she would forget that others didn't see what she did - once after a talk by some Indian instructor yrs ago - she casually says - 'Yeah, alot of spirits were floating around.' I went 'Huh?'
'Yeah,alot from the 19th century.'
Then she shut dn and clammed up realizing what she sounded like to someone that couldn't see them. But I dug it.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 23:43:56 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: u should make a point to 'catch' her on the
Message:
'Montel Williams Show'

you seem too intelligent for her charade........

she would be on my list of the top 10 most disguisting human beings.....

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 15:24:07 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: u should make a point to 'catch' her on the
Message:
I'm usually at work.

What does she do exactly to rate being in your top 10?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 16:12:34 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: u should make a point to 'catch' her on the
Message:
Honestly that was an exaggeration, because I won't even remember her name in a couple of weeks (unless i hear it)....

what bugs me about her you asked?

I guess the fact that she's on ALL the time. For years it seems....i'll just be flipping thru channels, and i'll see her AGAIN! and they've even had 'specials' with her 'only' her type shit.....

again-i've only caught some of it......but believe me it was plenty to get a clear picture of her 'travelling show'.............

it was just the classic 'Fortune Teller' generalizing guesswork technique......nothing worse than the others who do the same thing....but the fact that she was SATURATING TVland with herself repulsed me i guess (of course i hate the Montel Wms show just as much....)

she was like was one of the cheeziest TV evangelists sort of persona.............i really resent all that energy (on a lot of people's parts) that goes into making 'celebrities' of such revolting people.....it takes a lot more than just one obviously...so my list is WAY long......

yuck-----

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 21:28:28 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: YRU so down on 'this world', Elaine?
Message:
Elaine,
I think that is sad that you do not think birth is something to celebrate. Surely 'this world' is not always a veil of tears????
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 15:43:45 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: YRU so down on 'this world', Elaine?
Message:
Hi Helen,
Well, remember - I was quoting someone else about that birthday issue ---I had just read it.

But, now that you bring up such an interesting subject...
After reading a hundred stories of people not only having these Wonderful NDE - but,now the stories of people under hypnosis telling about the time in between lives ---I have gotten the definite sense it is quite wonderfully incredible when we go to the 'the other side' ---It's not heaven and merging with God in a primordial soup --but, after the stresses and concerns of this
world it is such a relief.

Not to be racked with pain,to meet with loved ones,to feel emersed in such a love,to not have to worry about mortgages and retirement packages. To be able to project yourself anywhere - like Jonathon L Seagull.

I mean sure this life can be absolutely wonderful - but it is fraught with so many turmoils. Needed for our growth and all...but not easy or pleasant.

I'm afraid it is more complex than 'thinking birth is not something to celebrate'. For me.

It's a paradox - of course, it's worth celebrating and then again
'Oh,crap - here I am again.'

You sound like you'd be a good mother - I wish I'd had one that would have kissed all my boo-boos away - I'll bet you do with your children. :)

Elaine

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 01:30:12 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: WARNING! JONATHAN LIVINGSTON SEAGULL MENTIONED!
Message:
We're talking female Shp, I think. Nice, new age, completely non-dscriminating. Truth? Hey whatever you want it to be!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 22:19:38 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: YRU so down on 'this world', Elaine?
Message:
I was told by an astrologer that I needed to do work here on the earthly plane in this lifetime, instead of focusing so much energy on trying to get into the next world. Don't laugh anyone else reading this, I know Elaine will understand this. I took that advice to heart because I think it is good advice anyway. Now I don't beleive in reincarnation anyway, it doesn't work out scientifically (population-wise) anyway.

I used to be really into reading new age stuff all the time. It was an escape because I was unhappy. I can really relate to that post Katie wrote to Raina about going through times in her life when she felt that certain things were irreparable. I had horrible things happen to me and did (what i thought were) horrible things and felt I didn't deserve to be happy. But I don't feel that way anymore. I think I have learned how to be happy and I am happy to be alive for the most part. i don't want to be somewhere else. I don't know if there is even a somewhere else. I guess I am very practical about spiritual things now, but I still believe in some kind of Great SPirit or God. i HOPE fervently that there is something beyond this life, but I am living 'as if' there isn't anything. DOes that make sense?

That's just me.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 20:31:50 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: The real purpose behind a Ritual?
Message:
ya-you're right....
as i was writing that post i had second thoughts about my own position, because there is something about birthdays.....like you said.....there's a lot more to it than just 'ice cream and cake' etc...

but i have to tell you, i did experience an urge to want to post something sarcastic and mean to GerRy...because of the way he'd last posted all this bullshit to me (That whole thread 'Here's what I think about Raina' or something to that effect).............

he's just been so despicable towards me....it's a little nauseating to see people be kind to him!

so i guess that's where my gripe came from?!

i always wanted to have a birthday party with all the people who were born in the same hospital/vacinity within the same 24 hours....i thought it could be a fascinating thing to organize for others too.....sounds like you would be good at creating events like that!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 00:55:36 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: The real purpose behind a Ritual?
Message:
Dear raina,
Shit, I replied to this earlier and something wasn't right so I saved the reply but can't find where now!
I am glad you resisted posting to gerry in his b-day thread, god knows you can do that anywhere else! :)
I have had to keep away from reading some people's posts because I see them going off on others for no reason. All in all it has changed the way I am here, not here as much, which I needed to do anyway.
What a fun idea re the birthdays from the same hospital and around the same day. Sounds like it could be a new web business! :)
Love,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 07:02:21 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: The real purpose behind a Ritual?
Message:
wouldn't it be a great eBiz idea? (sort of)
aren't birth records relatively easy access?
(or not at all easy?)

i mean...it could be 5 people, or 20, or just you! (boo hoo?)
But imagine there would be at least one other...either you would have absolutely NOTHING in common, OR, this miraculous, uncanny sort of WO!!!! coincedence galore shit might happen you know?.....................

if you think about it it seems more strange that this isn't a common tradition/practice huh?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 20:40:18 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: Hi,raina
Message:
Oh raina - I've never posted with Gerry ---he just asked me a question wayyy dn below. He seemed sincere and all - so I answered as I would anyone.
It will prob go into inactive by the time he gets back from sex on the beach. He doesn't really care about my ans anyway, prob.

Elaine

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 01:56:41 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: I read your reply, thanks, Elaine
Message:
I like the topic, also (people's experience in meditation.) I wonder why some people can do it and others can not.

When we sit or lay dn - we must start with a knowing ---
a knowing that goes beyond belief or even trust. We must know that we are doing one of the only things that is what 'God' wants us to be doing ----- communing with Him - opening to Him -showing our desire for Him ---and we will wait for Him.

Some how I doubt that meditation is communing with god. I'm with the brain wave materialists on this one. Seems unlikely 'god' would talk to some and not others in meditation. Patty can do it, with no 'waiting' or practise but doesn't associate her experiece with 'god.'

Gerry, it's just a Divine Romance ( familiar w/ Yogananda's book? same title). editation is the most erotic romance you can experience - never boring. But, start out with the proper 'attitude'.

Well, I guess I have an attitude problem in that respect. I read Authobiography of a Yogi and it was one of the main reasons I received nollidge. But the experience was a dud (thank god really since I was a real short timere in the cult) and I think I had one kinda ok meditation once in the Phila ashram. But that was it. That's why I'm curious what the big deal is.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 15:43:12 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: I read your reply, thanks, Elaine
Message:
Gerry,
So, are you turned off to sitting in stillness?
(I'm calling it that bec sometimes meditation, here, is so inter-related to M and Kn).

There is really something to sitting and emptying yourself of your daily concerns and just 'feeling' - not emotions. We can leave the word God out of it.

I'm not Buddhist - but I know they will let their thoughts go and follow them. That can be educational.

And I don't believe God shows himself to some and not others. Ever have some crap on your camera lens - its not the lens that's not letting you see clearly. You just blow it off and voila.

Maybe you could relate to alpha waves more than spiritual stuff.
When we can get into alpha - for me - that's the best.

If you try it again, let me know.
Cheers, Elaine

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 04:31:46 (GMT)
From: selene
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: can't resist
Message:
hi gerry
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 13:56:40 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: glyng@techline
To: selene
Subject: resistance is futile
Message:
Selene dear, you can always e-mail me.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 16:24:52 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: thanks I will soon
Message:
I'm shy you know
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 09:34:40 (GMT)
From: CHR
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: 100 positives about M
Message:
Recently I was talking to a friend who in trying to sort out a messy separation, was told by a therapist to try and write down 100 positve things about her time with her ex partner. She suggested that I do the same with M. While she actually was able to come up with 100 for her ex, I managed to come up with 4 for M.
1. I had some nice experiences in meditation.
2. I had some nice experiences in satsang.
3. I got to see a gold plated toilet.
4. I got to stay in some nice hotels in a few places around the world when doing service, courtesy of DLM.( or the ashram may have paid for me, which really means I paid for myself, as I spent over 8 years in the ashram giving my full-time wage).
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 17:32:26 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: CHR
Subject: I have 5
Message:
I remember early on, when this forum first got started, I tried to come up with some positive things about my time as a premie. I couldn't even think of one positive thing about Maharaji that I could say from first hand experience, except something really superficial like he wore nice ties, or he was kind of cute when he was a kid.

The only things I could come up with about being in the Maharaji cult were:

1. I met some really nice, sincere, loving people who were premies, (although I also met some outragious jerks who were also premies);

2. I learned how to make a few tofu dishes that I still make to this day;

3. While I 'did service' at IHQ when it was at the Broadripple Hotel in Miami Beach, I used to sneak over to the Fontainbleau Hotel at lunch time, and sunbathe around the pool, pretending to be a rich jet-setter. I got a nice tan (with the associated greater risk of skin cancer, but so far, so good.);

4. Being celebate for a depressing number of years prevented me from getting a sexually transmitted disease during that time. (How is THAT for looking on the bright side?)

5. The cult got me to San Francisco which, to me, is paradise.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 02:40:47 (GMT)
From: keith
Email: None
To: CHR
Subject: 100 positives about M
Message:
Shame. I had many more than four.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 07:44:07 (GMT)
From: CHR
Email: None
To: keith
Subject: 100 positives about M
Message:
To be honest Keith, I regard the 20 years I spent with M as mostly a waste of years. What I did learn has been in hindsight-trusting myself, not giving myself away etc. At the time I thought I was very fortunate-I spent more time around M than most premies. It is also in hindsight that I can see the arrested development and damage to myself that people have been discussing here. I am not bitter towards M and I don't think things are as simple as him being overtly and consciously fraudulent. It took me a long time to be able to really look at M himself-long after I had moved on. I had given myself to him-he had been the focus of my life. I had somehow accepted all the contradictions and rationalised them as part of his all knowing perfection. I had seen him drunk, incoherent, petty and angry as well as humourous, shy, sincere, humble and seemingly vulnerable. Basically he is not what he or the premies believe he is.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 15:23:17 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: CHR
Subject: Who Maharaji and I really am!
Message:
That's interesting.
CHR)To be honest Keith, I regard the 20 years I spent with M as mostly a waste of years.
K)That's sad.
CHR)What I did learn has been in hindsight-trusting
myself, not giving myself away etc. At the time I thought I was very
fortunate-I spent more time around M than most premies.
K)I empathise. About trusting myself,etc. How is it that you spent more time around M than most premies? In what capacity? CHR)I am not bitter
towards M and I don't think things are as simple as him being
overtly and consciously fraudulent.
K)This last sentence accords with my own experiece. My feeling exactly.
CHR) It took me a long time to be
able to really look at M himself-long after I had moved on. I had
given myself to him-he had been the focus of my life. I had
somehow accepted all the contradictions and rationalised them as
part of his all knowing perfection.
K)Ditto, but I feel not as much as you did.
CHR)I had seen him drunk,
incoherent, petty and angry as well as humourous, shy, sincere,
humble and seemingly vulnerable. Basically he is not what he or the
premies believe he is.
K)CHR, I had a simular experience but not with M. You see, at the same time I was a premie I also had another guru. Another Indian guru living here in OZ. I spent a lot of time around him. For 16 years I had two guru's. And my experiences of Swami Krishna were simular to those you descibe about M. But I did learn and grow so much by being involved with both M and S. I have moved on now because I outgrew the need. Or outgrew their needs too. But all through these years I felt that the perfection they and I acknowledged did not mean that as human beings anyone was perfect in all respects. Never-the-less, I always questioned the imperfections as I perceived them.
I would really enjoy to hear more about your experiences and insights gained from being around Maharaji. How close to him were you?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 10:14:43 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: CHR
Subject: 100 positives about M
Message:
Hi again,

(I feel like I'm following you around your house.)

What makes you think the first two had anything to do with M?

Anth the devils avocado

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 01:57:54 (GMT)
From: CHR
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: 100 positives about M
Message:
I don't believe they had much to do with Maharaji at all, in fact meditation was better after leaving M. But they did happen during the course of my time as a premie, then again so did some good meals, nice conversations etc. Okay, scrap the first two.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 09:12:02 (GMT)
From: CHR
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: There are worse gurus
Message:
It seems that many of the 'popular in the 70s and 80s' gurus are running into problems with their flock. Ex followers of Muktunanda, Gurumai, Sai Baba etc are also very disgruntled about their masters' less than perfect behaviour. They have sites and forums on the net similar to this. According to ex devotees, Sai Baba is very fond of young boys and uses his schools and university as a base for his pederast activities. The followers of Muktunanda claim he had a similar liking for pubescent girls. There were court cases pending when he died. Gurumai(sp?), the successor to Muktunanda, is said to have a penchant for setting her violent henchmen onto devotees who are perceived to be in disagreement with her. She apparently also likes to have a swag of expensive cars(sound familiar?), very expensive clothes and jewellery and even cosmetic surgery.
And all we had to worry about was a delusional megalomaniac with an alcohol problem.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 02:36:25 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: CHR
Subject: There are worse gurus
Message:
one thing needs to be said. To know perfection is not to be perfect. Did Maharaji ever say he was perfect? And I do not have to be a premie, which thank God I'm not , to ask such questions.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 02:52:03 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: There are worse gurus
Message:
Keith-do you really believe that m never claimed he was perfect?
You've got to be kidding!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 06:38:57 (GMT)
From: keith
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: There are worse gurus
Message:
tricky one that la-ex. I don't ever recall M stating that he was perfect. But he could have been interpreted that way. And it is true that many premies think of him as perfect and that he does not go out of his way to refute such notions. On the other hand I have heard him admit to failings and destinguish between knowing the perfect and the lower human condition;in other words the differance between the finite and the infinite.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 14:46:09 (GMT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: CHR
Subject: There are worse gurus
Message:
Their real abuse is their tyranny.
Nice that the dna makes them all go mad.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 02:39:05 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: There are worse gurus
Message:
yes that's a poignant point. Tyranny is a major abuse.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 09:29:52 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: CHR
Subject: Yeah...suppose so...
Message:
...well actually I did get mixed up with Sai Baba for a while. He also 'manifests' holy objects from 'thin air'. There's a film of him slipping one of these objects out from under a statue before miraculously manifesting it. It was banned from Indian TV and I believe one of the Indian cabinet was a devotee at the time.

Yeah, CHR, it could have been worse I suppose. At least I didn't have to dance up and down Oxford St in an orange sheet.

But it's a pity that our selfless idealism didn't get redirected into something of more benefit to humanity than supporting someones expensive delusions of grandeur for 25 years.

Anth (...

............But maybe the TRUE Master is out there somewhere still. Maybe in this age he's not come as a Guru, but as an ornithologist, and all the sparrows are really spiritual beings from other dimensions...where's me tablets?)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 10:02:18 (GMT)
From: CHR
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: By the way
Message:
AJW, did Sai Baba ever manifest any watches or rings for you? There's a whole article written by a close devotee of Sai Baba over on their site, describing the shock of stumbling across the jeweller who makes the watches and rings that Sai Baba 'manifests'.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 10:11:50 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: CHR
Subject: By the way
Message:
...no, I never became one of the 'inner circle' at Bangalore. He did however splash some 'vibhuti' at me once. This is 'holy ash' from the temple fire of his last incarnation, 'Sai Baba of Shridi'. Come to think of it, he was wearing long baggy sleeves at the time.

One of his predictions that stuck in my mind was, 'One day I will have so many devotees, when my plane tries to land, all the runways of the airports will be covered with my followers and the plane won't have room to touch down.'

Another case of 'Illusions of Divinity'.

Anth of Mammon

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 09:51:09 (GMT)
From: CHR
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Yeah...suppose so...
Message:
Yes,it is a pity that our efforts/talents weren't directed elsewhere.
Art was my passion, and my goal had been to be a professional artist. Fortunately I have been able to resurrect that dream, but at the tender age of 21 in 1973 when I came across M, there was not much room for my artistic abilities. Fortunately I never got caught up in painting those awful pictures that surfaced every now and then of M's face surrounded by cosmic tantric type halos and lights. I guess they're no worse than the mind numbing pictures of clouds and waves and sunsets that appear with new age elevator music in more recent video productions.
As far as dancing up and down the street with orange robes on, at least there was a certain anonymity in that. I still cringe when I think of going to work with a large GMJ badge on, or 'community' satsangs at international airports after festivals, or telling my father that M was god in human etc .
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 10:27:57 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: CHR
Subject: Yeah the art was always very new age/soviet propag
Message:
anda'ish.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 10:05:54 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: CHR
Subject: Aaaaagh....don't remind me.
Message:
...or standing in middle of the sanitary ware factory, using an upturned toilet as a megaphone, yelling, 'THE LORD OF THE UNIVERSE IS WALKING UPON THE EARTH'

Anth the 'Give me the reins of your loo and I will give you a flush that will never die'

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 18:43:43 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Aaaaagh....don't remind me. PRICELESS!!! (nt)
Message:
Aaaaagh....don't remind me. PRICELESS!!! (nt)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 05:43:38 (GMT)
From: lotus Eater
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: A question
Message:
Okay, so here is my question: Is Mr. P. Rawat, aka Maharaji, a con man?

Some people seem to think most definitely, yes. Some people think its an accident of birth, and he probably believes in himself and what he does.

I would really like to answer my question satisfactorily. I would like to know if he deliberately set out to deceive me or not. I would like to know if he has changed his opinion about himself in the last 30 years and if so when.

Its like this business about Jagdeo, obviously he knew about it, I dont know if he did anything to curtail Jagdeos activities for starters and cant comment, but the thing that really annoys me is that he did nothing to help the victims. If Knowledge is so bloody important to him, why didnt he do anything to help children who were being given it along with a particularly perverse slice of sexual abuse.

In the same way, what about his responsibility towards all the people who have received his gift and their families. There are too many people who have been badly hurt, and are not getting answers from him.

So, hes just an ordinary bloke, and he hasnt a snowflakes hope in hell of addressing the phenomenal carnage left in the wake of his progress through life ... sorry, just doesnt wash when he is still capable of addressing the masses and promoting his gift.

It also annoys me that when, in the dearth of any answers from him, people make their own efforts to find their answers, ...and he attempts to muzzle it!!!

So, lets presume that he thinks that he has an inner connection with each premie, alive or dead, that his gift will answer their questions, and it is these two things that matter, and are what he has to focus on...then at what point does he sit up and take stock of what he has achieved, and what, if anything, is he going to do about it?

Having just written the above paragraph, which leaves me wondering, is he a complete idiot?, is he terrified of his father?, scared of us?, what???, does he believe that the love he can feel when he sits on the stage does anything for his premies when we walk out of different doors?, if so, what, precisely (and please include the price)?

I also have to add that maybe he is so deep in the devotional conundrum that he simply is incapable of thinking it through.

Not so long ago, he said: 'if you are going to judge me, judge me kindly'. I agree, I would hope for the same myself, I find I am seeking to be able to make my judgement of him. Lesley

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 10:42:57 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: lotus Eater
Subject: You miss out one key question
Message:
has he ever shown any compassion or interest at all in anybody or anything ever? let alone from the man with the knowledges of all knowledges (what he says in india, to this day) or a way of appreciating life that is uniquely his, (what he says in the west)?

even as a basic bog standard human being, not many of that sort of stories about him have surfaced, and when you think of all the number over the years who would have praised him to the hilt for being so generous if he'd just bought someone a cup of tea, you'd think we'd have heard something.

No if you read all the background stuff of people spending time around him, his increasing howard hughes'isation, you just know it's the truth, he cares about no-one apart from himself, and maybe sometimes some members of his immediate family.

Just say he did care a bit, you know the fact that he never does anything in this territory, is because however much he cares, he cares about all aspects of himself a lot, lot more.

A truly sad person.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 21:10:01 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: You miss out one key question
Message:
Hey,
I heard once many years ago how my friend had a blood disease and was dying in the hospital in Cal ---M went to see him.It was my friend himself who told me, BTW.

I'll bet no one knew that. That is the only singular time I've heard of M doing anything kinda 'normal' in the compassion department.

Elaine

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 20:14:39 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Definitely the case of the exception proves
Message:
the rule.

The image of gm you just described is so rare it stands out like fresh blood on fresh snow.

AAAhhh, the power of love.
What a bunch of saddoes we truly were.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 19:26:34 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: You miss out one key question
Message:
Did your friend share with you what M said at that time?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 20:19:26 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: You miss out one key question
Message:
Ya know, I don't remember a word. Not even if there was a group or if M was alone in the room or anything. I guess the blissed out look on his face was enough for him to say.
I didn't ask at that time. It's hard for me to imagine I didn't ask - but I didn't. I can still see his face tho.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 20:25:10 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: You mean he died happy because of M? (nt)
Message:
You mean he died happy because of M? (nt)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 20:47:39 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: You mean he died happy because of M? (nt)
Message:
Oh, I am so sorry ---yes, he WAS dying----but, then he didn't. Opps. Still around and cured.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 17:39:45 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: It's a miracle! So you 2 still talk? (nt)
Message:
It's a miracle! So you 2 still talk?(nt)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 18:34:48 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Nope,sorry. nt
Message:
om
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 10:32:07 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: lotus Eater
Subject: A question
Message:
This is a good question Lesley.

But first on the matter of Jagdeo. All the evidence says Maharaji was told about what Jagdeo was up to at least twice, and he did absolutely nothing about it.

On the other matter of 'Where is Maharaji at?'.

Imagine a child who is given everything he wants, and is surrounded by people who take no responsibility for bringing that child up, and are there merely to serve. What kind of person will this produce.

The imagine a child who is worshipped as God in human form. What effect will that have on that peron? 'Spoiled' doesn't even begin to describe the condition. It's no wonder that Maharaji is full of more and more extravagant demands. There's nobody around to say 'No', to him, because people who say 'No', to the Perfect Master don't stick around long.

I imagine a psychologist would have a field day with characters like Maharaji, Sun Yung Moon, Sai Baba, and all these other poor folk who believe they are 'God'.

On the plus side, he did go to school for a few years and mix with normal folk, and his children must have kept him fairly 'earthed' for a few years.

It's when he starts his mid-life crisis that the fireworks will start popping.

Who knows, maybe we'll see him on the Forum one day, 'How I was brainwashed into being the Lord of the Universe'.

He's definitely going through a bad patch at the moment- partially due to public exposure of previously hidden activities, plus the continuing decline in active members, as more and more premies vote with their feet and don't show up. A decline in Western premies also means a decline in income. He's becoming more reclusive- communicating by video taped satellite broadcasts every week (15 a week in the UK), and things aren't looking too bright for the Lord of the Universe. He's hiring lawyers in a totally futile attempt to silence his critics.

However, being an optimist, I predict that, after therapy and support from his family, in 5 years he'll be running a chain of successful used luxury car dealers along the California coast.

Anthstrodamus

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 21:15:38 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: A question
Message:
It is very hard to believe a man with children himself would do nothing... Regarding this Jagdeo thing.

I don't know what he did - maybe he yelled at Jagdeo really bigtime - I don't know. Maybe he didn't talk with the parents bec he was afraid of opening things up - typical fear/denial/shame/dysfunctional response.

I'd love to know the truth.
What appears on the outside is he did nothing. There is always more to any story.I'd like to know it.

Elaine

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 04:54:08 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: A question
Message:
I agree he probably did something. We can only guess what. Maybe some sort of warning/lecture? But we do know that Jagdeo continued to tour as an initiator after Rawat was told. So whatever Rawat thought he didn't think that being a child molester was a good enough reason to stop him from being an initiator and traveling the world in his name.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 19:52:00 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Why would he bite one of the hands that fed him?nt
Message:
Why would he bite one of the hands that fed him?nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 07:46:41 (GMT)
From: 25 year Premie/4 year Ex
Email: None
To: lotus Eater
Subject: On the subject of Jagdeo
Message:
Lotus Eater,
Not the answer you're looking for, but I can relate to you how I rationalized being molested by my father while I was a premie. You see, I was ever so convinced that Guru Maharaj Ji was totally in control:
'Jai Guru Dev Maharaji, Your glory fills the world.
Protector of the weary and the weak.
You bring the death of attachment.
You bring the mind true detachment.
Save us from the ocean deep.
Jai Dev, oh Jai Sat Guru Dev.'
...
'You are my mother, and you are my father.
You are my brother, and you are my friend.
You are riches, you are wisdom.
You are my all, my Lord to me.
...
'Our Lord is the Maker of all things created,
He keeps them and brings them all home to his Word.
Our Lord's the superior power in person,
I bow down before such a wonderful Lord.'

I was already living with my future husband, a premie, when my father raped me. I was able to detach from the situation through rationalizing that it was my karma; I thought I was actually getting what I 'wanted' in terms of the Freudian Electra Complex. I only had to surrender to Goo Maraji and all was supposed to be transmuted into freedom from karma. It was dissociation, pure and simple. After awhile, meditation couldn't suppress the issues anymore and I experienced intense anxiety and depression. I was told my Dr. John Horton, a Mahatma, that I wasn't devoted enough. 'If I was really devoted, I would be blissed out.'

After I figured out that I needed something other than satsang, service, and meditation to deal with the molestation, I spent several years in therapy and groups and eventually reconciled and forgave my dad.

Maharaji's method of dealing with the Jagdeo sorts of issues was similar, I think. My guess is that Maharaji rationalized the situation until recently when the exes have confronted him with the truth. It cannot be swept under the carpet. It seems to me that altar boys who are molested probably deal with the same issues because they are intimately linked with religion and trusting God's representative. Maybe as traumatic as having one's father betray a child's trust, and thus creating an obstacle to the victim's overall well being.

Sometimes it occurs to me that Maharaji followed a path that was laid out for him in childhood. At some point, he must've felt the same as the Emperor without clothing. Perhaps he hasn't and chooses instead to dissociate from reality and continue his charade. It's served him well thus far.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 21:19:33 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: 25 year Premie/4 year Ex
Subject: On the subject of Jagdeo
Message:
None of my business....is your father still living?

My grandfather was the molester in the family,but now he's gone, darn it.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 06:14:26 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: lotus Eater
Subject: Lesley?
Message:
Is your name Lesley? Did you ever live in Michigan?

Marianne

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 14:41:57 (GMT)
From: L.Daily?
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Lesley? nt
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 16:01:38 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: L.Daily?
Subject: Lesley?
Message:
The Lesley I knew lived in the Chicago ashram in the early '70's, then moved to Kalamazoo for a while. Her last name was Ferro. She and her husband ultimately moved to a farm in Michigan. She was a very nice person.

Marianne

Return to Index -:- Top of Index