Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 11:13:17 (GMT)
From: Jun 06, 2000 To: Jun 14, 2000 Page: 3 Of: 5


Douche -:- Copyright update -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 09:08:29 (GMT)
__ Katie -:- Copyright update (J-M, please read) -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 11:30:15 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Lord of the Universe vs. Exes' Websites: The Saga -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 14:08:15 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- I've read this! I'll add it on my page!!! -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 13:26:07 (GMT)
__ __ Douche -:- Copyright update (J-M, please read) -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 11:58:33 (GMT)
__ (Sir) David -:- A medal is on its way -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 10:13:41 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- A medal is on its way -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 20:28:44 (GMT)
__ __ Douche -:- A medal is on its way -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 12:06:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ Douche -:- Message for Jim -:- Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 06:42:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ Douche -:- Another day, another email... -:- Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 06:39:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- I never claimed to represent anyone -:- Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 15:46:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Douche -:- I never claimed to represent anyone -:- Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 16:00:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Douche -:- What did she say? -:- Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 19:43:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- She said God is dead, of course -:- Sat, Jun 10, 2000 at 00:15:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- LOL Jim, thanks - excellent!!! :-) (nt) -:- Sat, Jun 10, 2000 at 01:17:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ stonor -:- and especially funny coming from you! and . . . -:- Sat, Jun 10, 2000 at 03:43:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Why hit on Nietzsche?! (ot) -:- Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 23:54:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Douche -:- Why hit on Nietzsche?! (ot) -:- Sat, Jun 10, 2000 at 07:51:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Why hit on Nietzsche?! (ot) -:- Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 18:29:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Douche -:- Why hit on Nietzsche?! (ot) -:- Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 07:32:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- who allegedly was you or represents you in these -:- Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 18:58:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- who allegedly was you or represents you in these -:- Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 20:20:16 (GMT)

Dave -:- Get A Life -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 06:09:52 (GMT)
__ windbag -:- Get A Life -:- Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 03:02:06 (GMT)
__ hamzen -:- Urgh right D-Dave -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 20:01:42 (GMT)
__ DAVE -:- Get A Life -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 16:00:08 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- ... like your brother? -:- Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 19:07:33 (GMT)
__ __ Keith -:- Get A Life -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 21:19:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- Do you think Dave's post was a shining... -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 21:45:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ keith -:- Do you think Dave's post was a shining... -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 21:57:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Remember this, Keith -:- Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 19:02:23 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- Get A Life -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 20:42:25 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- ...and this IS part of the healing, Dave (nt) -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 20:33:25 (GMT)
__ __ Way -:- 9 objections letter -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 16:17:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ Keith -:- 9 objections letter -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 21:43:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Way -:- To K, re:9 objections letter -:- Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 14:08:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ Elaine -:- Good one,Way nt -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 16:21:46 (GMT)
__ __ (Sir) David -:- Get A Life - you're a liar -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 16:14:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ Elaine -:- Get A Life - you're a liar -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 16:23:13 (GMT)
__ Colorado Meditator -:- Get A Life -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 14:50:02 (GMT)
__ Coach -:- Get A Brain -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 12:47:21 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- Thank you for those few kind words... -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 11:46:47 (GMT)
__ Jethro -:- Get A Life -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 10:27:23 (GMT)
__ (Sir) David -:- Get A Life - is that the best you can say? -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 09:53:17 (GMT)
__ Boolean -:- short sighted Dave -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 06:30:36 (GMT)
__ Darlene -:- Got A Life -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 06:21:39 (GMT)
__ __ DAVE -:- Where is Darlene -:- Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 02:55:54 (GMT)
__ __ keith -:- Got A Life -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 21:53:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ Robyn -:- Got A Life -:- Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 01:14:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Keith -:- Got A Life -:- Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 01:28:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Got A Life -:- Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 01:34:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ keith -:- Got A Life -:- Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 01:37:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Got A Life -:- Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 01:43:07 (GMT)
__ __ Zelda -:- ....giggle -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 07:49:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ Darlene -:- ....giggle -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 11:04:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Zelda -:- ....giggle -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 16:48:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Way -:- email from Dave -:- Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 14:17:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- email from Dave -:- Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 14:51:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- talking of teaching tools ... (steady) ... -:- Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 20:03:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- talking of teaching tools ... (steady) ... -:- Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 23:40:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Never heard the seraphim ... -:- Sat, Jun 10, 2000 at 14:39:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Never heard the seraphim ... -:- Sat, Jun 10, 2000 at 17:27:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- That's cause I never said it / never would....nt -:- Sat, Jun 10, 2000 at 22:36:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Maybe I misread you, care to explain this? -:- Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 01:59:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Maybe I misread you, care to explain this? -:- Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 05:33:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Poor, poor Elaine -:- Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 16:40:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Trying again: to Elaine -:- Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 17:07:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- gerry -:- Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 18:42:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Whatever you say Elaine -:- Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 18:55:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Whatever you say Elaine -:- Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 22:09:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Elaine's shadow side finally emerges... -:- Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 00:15:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- to Gerry re: brain wave tapes (ot) -:- Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 17:39:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- to Gerry re: brain wave tapes (ot) -:- Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 18:45:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonora -:- to Gerry re: brain wave tapes (ot) -:- Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 21:39:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- to Gerry re: brain wave tapes (ot) -:- Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 00:57:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Dettmers' Hemi-synch product is from Monroe I.(nt) -:- Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 21:16:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Dettmers' Hemi-synch product is from Monroe I.(nt) -:- Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 22:00:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- your email address -:- Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 23:35:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- your email address -:- Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 00:13:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Dettmers' Hemi-synch product -:- Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 23:00:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Geons, Black Holes and Quantum Foam -:- Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 00:02:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Never heard the seraphim ... -:- Sat, Jun 10, 2000 at 17:50:25 (GMT)

sam -:- journeys-good/bad -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 05:47:04 (GMT)
__ green eggs and ham -:- journeys-good/bad -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 06:41:24 (GMT)
__ __ sam -:- journeys-good/bad -:- Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 02:01:07 (GMT)

Gilead -:- Mother Meera and The Lord of the Universe -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 01:38:01 (GMT)
__ sam -:- Mother Meera and The Lord of the Universe -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 02:54:31 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- Mother Meera and The Lord of the Universe -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 01:56:28 (GMT)
__ __ Gilead -:- Mother Meera and The Lord of the Universe -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 21:19:01 (GMT)

poet -:- you -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 00:09:46 (GMT)
__ Elaine -:- No Text is (nt) -:- Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 01:09:21 (GMT)
__ Coach -:- The Martian Ambassador -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 12:53:02 (GMT)
__ Attorney General -:- What about calling me to talk about the boy? nt -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 03:09:21 (GMT)
__ __ poet -:- What about calling me to talk about the boy? nt -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 06:38:49 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek -:- huh? -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 01:04:40 (GMT)
__ __ poet -:- huh? -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 06:53:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Ok, poet, Rob, Spammy the Rapper, etc. -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 17:24:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Come on, Roger, who cares anymore? -:- Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 06:21:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Absolutely, Rob is old news! -:- Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 19:52:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Yeah I'm ROTFL -:- Sat, Jun 10, 2000 at 19:20:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Right! -:- Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 19:00:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Rob -:- Excuse me? NT -:- Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 01:34:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joey -:- Time to water the plants. -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 19:46:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Ditto. -:- Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 01:43:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Sure, Rob, whatever you say... (nt) -:- Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 04:18:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Not just me saying it though, is it? (nt) -:- Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 01:40:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- OK, who'll vouch for Joey's frame of mind here? -:- Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 00:38:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eCult-Operative -:- OK, who'll vouch for Joey's frame of mind here? -:- Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 04:16:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ (Sir) David -:- OK, who'll vouch for Joey's frame of mind here? -:- Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 01:57:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Rob, you've got me now! You and Joey can... -:- Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 18:59:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Roger, shut the fuck up about this 'Rob' shit!!!! -:- Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 21:09:58 (GMT)
__ Keith -:- me -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 00:13:37 (GMT)
__ __ poet -:- me -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 06:33:33 (GMT)
__ __ HyperHippy -:- BeHereNOW.BE NOWHERE -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 06:16:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ Keith -:- BeHereNOW.BE NOWHERE -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 20:44:25 (GMT)

Guru Maharaj Ji leaflet -:- being auctioned -:- Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 22:56:09 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Wouls you scan it? and email it to me? -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 07:19:19 (GMT)
__ me -:- being auctioned -:- Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 23:12:02 (GMT)
__ __ Elaine -:- What items do you all have if you auctioned -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 14:31:32 (GMT)

Keith -:- another reason why no regrets -:- Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 22:52:56 (GMT)
__ bill -:- Hmmm -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 03:56:11 (GMT)
__ __ Harry -:- Hmmm -:- Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 10:09:15 (GMT)
__ __ gerry -:- bill that was so....sweet -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 14:42:13 (GMT)
__ __ Keith -:- Hmmm, grrrr. -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 05:17:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ Elaine -:- Address anything to me,then -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 16:06:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill -:- ha ha ha -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 05:33:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ bill -:- ha ha ha -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 05:56:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Keith -:- ha ha ha -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 20:48:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- Kieth.. a night of aggression explained -:- Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 04:26:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ gErRy -:- Kieth.. a night of aggression explained -:- Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 17:27:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Killer Burke -:- Kieth.. a night of aggression explained -:- Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 06:33:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- Kieth.. a night of aggression explained -:- Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 05:02:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Keith -:- No worries mate. Aussie slang! -:- Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 05:20:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Keith -:- Kieth.. a night of aggression explained -:- Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 04:40:08 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- another reason why no regrets -:- Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 23:48:45 (GMT)
__ __ Keith -:- another reason why no regrets -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 00:04:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- Conservation of energy -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 00:39:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ G -:- Conservation of energy -:- Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 01:15:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- G, you really ought to be looking at -:- Sat, Jun 10, 2000 at 10:18:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- self referencing and self-organizing systems -:- Sat, Jun 10, 2000 at 17:02:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Conservation of energy -:- Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 13:30:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Conservation of energy -:- Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 17:45:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Conservation of energy -:- Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 20:00:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Conservation of energy -:- Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 21:51:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Quantum, Schwantum -:- Sat, Jun 10, 2000 at 20:44:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Quantum, your extraordinary claim -:- Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 03:58:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Contradictions in your theories, reaction pot. -:- Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 16:08:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gErRy -:- Quantum, Schwantum -:- Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 02:28:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Gerry -:- Jerry, Help, what was the name of that book? -:- Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 02:09:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Ah, you mean METHODOLOGICAL quantum, schwantum -:- Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 00:40:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- conservation law may not apply -:- Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 22:26:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ G -:- A note regarding the conservation of energy -:- Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 00:50:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Keith -:- Conservation of energy -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 05:26:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Keith -:- Conservation of energy. Follow up -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 22:14:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Conservation of energy. Follow up -:- Sat, Jun 10, 2000 at 19:55:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- the evidence -:- Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 04:11:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Keith -:- the evidence -:- Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 08:27:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- the full evidence -:- Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 16:03:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ bill -:- why conserve? -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 05:46:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- why conserve? -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 09:17:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Harry -:- why conserve? -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 22:59:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- why conserve? -:- Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 22:10:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Toe-jam footballs -:- Sat, Jun 10, 2000 at 15:18:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- oops. How'd that post get here? 'pologies. (nt) -:- Sat, Jun 10, 2000 at 15:27:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- why conserve? -:- Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 01:22:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Harry -:- why conserve? -:- Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 06:56:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- why conserve? -:- Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 11:10:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Off Topic ---Question about Net -:- Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 13:54:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Off Topic ---Question about Net -:- Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 15:24:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Keith -:- why conserve? -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 23:05:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Keith -:- spiritual talk -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 21:06:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- why conserve? -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 16:20:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- why conserve? -:- Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 01:32:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Harry -:- why conserve? -:- Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 06:42:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- why conserve? -:- Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 10:59:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Nice post nt -:- Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 01:38:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ keith -:- ditto -:- Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 01:35:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ (Sir) David -:- Spot on Raina -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 13:47:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Spot on Raina -:- Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 01:41:47 (GMT)


Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 09:08:29 (GMT)
From: Douche
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Copyright update
Message:
Censorship update

It's now three weeks since Geocities pulled the plug on the old ex-premie site 'Cult Watch' saying that they'd received a letter from BigM's high-powered lawyers alleging infringement of copyright. Despite numerous emails, Geocities are refusing to reinstate the site until I confirm in writing that I've removed the material the lawyers are objecting to. My problem is that the lawyers won't tell me what the material is, and despite emails and phone messages, I can't get any response.

So natural justice suggests that Geocities should reinstate the site until the lawyers specify what material they're objecting to. But I can't get Geocities copyright complaints man to respond to this request. Apologies for posting such a lengthy message (perhaps Brian could put it somewhere on the site), but I think other ex-toe-kissers might appreciate the Catch 22 irony of it all...

Geocities (22.5.00): The law firm Milbank, Tweed, Hadley and McCloy LLP which is counsel to Elan Vital and Prem Pal Singh Rawat has notified Yahoo! that you are posting content on Yahoo! GeoCities which appears to contain material copyrighted by Elan Vital and Prem Pal Singh Rawat. Elan Vital and Prem Pal Singh Rawat also has notified Yahoo! that it did not authorize any such use of its copyrighted material on http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Troy/1710/.

In accordance with the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, we have disabled the material on http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Troy/1710/.

Me (22.5.00): The site seems to have been completely closed down which seems somewhat premature. Can you tell me what content it is claimed is infringing copyright so that I can respond and make the necessary amendments?

Geocities (23.5.00): You may contact the law firm Milbank, Tweed, Hadley and McCloy LLP for further information at 212.530.5000. Please direct your inquiry to Ms. Alison Naidech.

Me (23.5.00): Thanks for the response Anthony. As I live in the UK, can you give me Ms Naidech's email address so I can try and discover what they're objecting to?

Geocities (31.5.00): You may e-mail the law firm of Milbank, Tweed, Hadley and McCloy LLP at
anaidech@milbank.com.

Me (31.5.00): I've tried to contact Ms Naidech by phone and email to discover what material they're objecting to but can get no response. Since I have been a paying customer of yours for some two years, I would have thought it reasonable to reinstate the site until they provide the requested information. Will you do this for me?

Geocities (31.5.00): Unfortunately, you will need to provide me with the Counter-Notification as orginally requested and provided in relevant part:
1. Provide your name, residential address and telephone number;
2. Identify the material that has been removed;
3. State that under penalty of perjury, I have a good faith belief that
the material was removed as the result of mistake or misidentification.
4. State that I consent to the jurisdiction of the Federal District
Court for the judicial district in which I reside, and I will accept
service of process from Milbank, Tweed, Hadley and McCloy LLP.
5. Sign the letter and fax it to Yahoo! at 408.530.5200.
If you have any further questions, feel free to contact me at copyright@yahoo-inc.com.

Me (1.6.00): How can I remove the material when they won't tell me what it is? I've emailed them and left 'phone messages. In the absence of any response, don't you think it would be reasonable to reinstate the site until they do provide this information?

Geocities (1.6.00): As stated previously you will need to provide me with the Counter-Notification. If after 10 days, Milbank, Tweed, Hadley and McCloy LLP has not responded to your Counter-Notification, your site will be reinstated.

Me (1.6.00): This is like a scene from Catch 22! How can I provide you with the Counter Notification if Milbank, Tweed, Hadley and McCloy LLP won't tell me what it is they're objecting to? It's a simple question. Why can't you give me a simple answer?

Geocitiers (6.6.00): I spoke with Ms. Alison Naidech today, June 2, 2000, and she stated she has been not in the office for the past week. However, she did receive your e-mail and will contact you shortly to resolve the dispute. I thank you for your patience and cooperation.

Me (6.6.00): In my experience 'shortly' can mean a very different thing to lawyers than the rest of us. Since Ms Naidech has not detailed what it is her client objects to, do you not think it right that you reinstate my site until such time as she does?

Geocityies (7.6.00): You may contact her on your own since I have verified she is available.

Me (7.6.00): I've phoned and emailed her and had no response. What else do you propose I do? And why can't you respond to my simple request that you reinstate the site until she explains what it is she objects to? It's plainly wrong to censor a site on such a basis.

Geocities (forwarding a letter sent by them to the lawyers 8.6.00): Our subscriber who manages the site located at
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Troy/1710/ claims he has been unsuccessful in his attempts to contact you. The home page owner would like to bring about a quick resolution to this matter regarding alleged copyright infringement on his site. Please let me know if there is anything I can further do to facilitate the process in order to have this matter closed.

Me (8.6.00): Id suggest that the fastest way of 'facilitating the process in order to have this matter closed' would be to reinstate the site until Ms Naidech specifies what it is she objects to. I've lost count of the number of times I've asked you to respond to this simple request, WILL YOU PLEASE ANSWER?

Aaaarrrggghhhhh!!!!!!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 11:30:15 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Douche
Subject: Copyright update (J-M, please read)
Message:
Hi Douche -
J-M has set up a web page just for documents and posts like yours - your post would make a great addition.

By the way - you are EXTREMELY patient (!) I would have been tearing my hair out with frustration after that series of messages! I think the problem is that the lawyers don't actually KNOW what the material is...

Any progress in putting your site on Jan Gronevelt's site? Or maybe you should just put it up on another Geocities page?

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 14:08:15 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Lord of the Universe vs. Exes' Websites: The Saga
Message:
One new chapter to The Saga:

Maharaji, Lord of the Universe vs. Exes' Websites.

now online.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 13:26:07 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: I've read this! I'll add it on my page!!!
Message:
and wait for the next chapter of the saga .... LOL!
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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 11:58:33 (GMT)
From: Douche
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Copyright update (J-M, please read)
Message:
Hi Katie; I had to send the site on floppy discs to Jan via snail mail all the way to Oz, so I'm not sure whether it's reached her yet. I'll have to check.

Regarding the tearing of hair, it's such a ridiculous senario that I'm quite enjoying the absurdity of it all. But I do think there's a serious point to be made when multi-million dollar organisations such as Yahoo/Geocities treat their customers with such contempt.

Even more so when they censor sites aimed at helping people recover from cult-membership on the strength of a vague letter from the cult-leader's lawyers. The Internet was supposed to bring new freedoms of expression, but I think this shows that companies such as Geocities are far from worthy keepers of the keys. It's a great shame.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 10:13:41 (GMT)
From: (Sir) David
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Douche
Subject: A medal is on its way
Message:
for service above and beyond the call of duty. You've got more staying power than me, lad. I just put my site up on another Geocities domain and it's still there. It's to my advantage that M's lawyers are such slow coaches. By the time they've drafted another letter to Geocities about my new site, it'll be somewhere else too, times two.

Your story does add to the general soap opera though and it is appreciated. I'm sure there's many people eager to know what happens in the next episode.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 20:28:44 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: (Sir) David
Subject: A medal is on its way
Message:
Good work, Dave

Glad to see you up and running again - and it's also good to see that all the hard work you put into the archive search engine wasn't wasted. That's one VERY valuable tool you've given us there!

Cheers,

Chris

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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 12:06:43 (GMT)
From: Douche
Email: None
To: (Sir) David
Subject: A medal is on its way
Message:
Thanks for the award Sir David. I'm even more honoured that it comes from a knight of the realm! As for moving it to another Geocities site, I'd rather find a more hospitable and sturdy place to put it.

The daft thing is that I'd really forgotten about the site. I hadn't looked at it for more than a year, and I don't think it attracted many visitors. I put it on Geocities because I'd spent such a lot of time on it that I couldn't bear to close it down.

But this has rekindled my interest so I may do a bit of work bringing it up to date. I've got a decent domain name and I could place it at the centre of a general anti-cult site.

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Date: Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 06:42:44 (GMT)
From: Douche
Email: Anyone
To: Jim
Subject: Message for Jim
Message:
Jim, I'd really rather you didn't contact Geocities regarding their objections to my site. It just gives them another excuse not to respond to me. Thanks...
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Date: Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 06:39:08 (GMT)
From: Douche
Email: None
To: Anyone
Subject: Another day, another email...
Message:
Here's today's episode in the Yahoo/Geocities Catch 22 email soap...

Geocities (responding to the last message at the start of this thread): Ms. Naidech replied to my e-mail today. She informed me she spoke with a gentleman by the name of Mr. Heller who allegedly was you or represents you in these matters. Ms. Naidech informed Mr. Heller of the her client's concerns.

You will need to fax in your Counter-Notification along with the requested information. In addition, I have had no difficulties contacting Ms. Naidech via phone or e-mail. I suggest you contact her again as she has promptly responded to inquires from myself.

Me: Firstly, Mr Heller neither represents me, has any contact with me or is me.

I really can't see why you keep avoiding my very simple question: Why can't you reinstate my site until Ms Naidech spells out what it is she claims infringes her client's copyright?

You say you've had no difficulty phoning or emailing her. Well for some reason she has not responded to my messages. Perhaps if you told her you were reinstating my site until she spells out her case, this might prompt her into action.

Isn't that a reasonable step for you to take on behalf of one of your paying customers?

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Date: Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 15:46:46 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Douche
Subject: I never claimed to represent anyone
Message:
No, I was hip to this from the start. I never told Naidech I represented you or anyone. What I did say was that I was Jim Heller, one of the regular posters on the ex sites and, as well, a lawyer and that I was just calling to find out what their beef was. I mentioned being a lawyer only in the context of knowing what it's like to have a repugnant file assigned to me and how I understood how little room she, a junior lawyer, might have to worry about the sort of ethical concerns having a cult leader for a client might trigger. (I don't have that problem now. I only represent alleged murders, rapists, etc.) If she's saying her short call with me was a substitute for answering you, she's dreaming. I never said I acted for you, etc. etc.
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Date: Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 16:00:09 (GMT)
From: Douche
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I never claimed to represent anyone
Message:
I didn't think you would Jim. You obviously put Ms Naidech in such a spin that she got her knickers in a twist. (Old english proverb which probably doesn't translate too well!).
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Date: Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 19:43:22 (GMT)
From: Douche
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What did she say?
Message:
BTW what was the upshot of your conversation with Ms Nietzsche?
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Date: Sat, Jun 10, 2000 at 00:15:27 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Douche
Subject: She said God is dead, of course
Message:
No, really, she said that the protected material in question was images used and adulterated all without the imprimatur of the greasy Hamster himself. I then vented a bit (in civil lawyerese of course) about the irony of this asshole who trained us to literally worship his picture (remember how we thought he was everywhere and thus his image itself was sacred, not be thrown out but solemnly burned and only if necessary?) and who set us up to run through the streets proclaiming his, the Lord of the Universe's arrival, waving giant Maoist-type posters filled with his formless face, not to mention all the buttons, now claiming some sort of copyright privilege on any of these materials. I told her that was a beautiful, beautiful joke, one whose ever nuance would not, could not be lost on the ex-premies and one which would be canvassed in all its excruciatingly-embarrassing dimensions should her cowardly client ever launch a lawsuit. I told her that most of the exes I knew welcomed a lawsuit, indeed salivated over the prospect of dragging her venal client into court. I mentined the obvious point we're all well aware of that he would simply wither in a deposition, that he's stonewalled all questions and avoided all critics for over twenty years now and that that facade would crumble in a few simple questions, that her detestable client has never in his life been forced to answer for anything (save and except for the litigation in India where the whole world noted that the judge blasted the entire family as a national embarrassment and a black mark on the very notion of spirituality). I told her that it was too bad that she couldn't get to know her client a bit better because then she'd really appreciate the depth of his depravity and the harm he's done over the years. Stuff like that.
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Date: Sat, Jun 10, 2000 at 01:17:46 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: LOL Jim, thanks - excellent!!! :-) (nt)
Message:
I needed the laugh!
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Date: Sat, Jun 10, 2000 at 03:43:53 (GMT)
From: stonor
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: and especially funny coming from you! and . . .
Message:
I haven't come across Dawkins yet, but I confess, I forgot to look in the appropriate section this week when I was in a second-hand book store. BUT, I found another book I had been keeping my eye out for, sitting staring at me from the centre of a shelf - 'Moon Webs', by Josh Freed. Have you read it? It was published in 1980 and is a true story about a few people who got involved with the moonies in the seventies.

I was surprised to read that Mike Kropveld who was operates Cult Information Centre in Montreal, was one of the people in this story. I contacted him about 10 years ago when a very close friend of mine in Victoria'encouraged' me to fly out to Victoria to do the weekend 'Women's Group' Workshop. Like the characters in this book, and probably many of you, I figured that it would be a good opportunity to spend face-to-face time with her, as she had moved to BC 10 years before. I had in fact, already bought my plane ticket, and was communicating with the organizers, when I began to realize that something was not okay. When I spoke with Helen about my doubts, her responses were bizarre. I said at the time that it was like talking to wind blowing in my face. I don't know exactly why, but I thought 'cult,' and somehow found CIC's phone number. He told me that he had had a few calls about these workshops, added my report to his files, and gave me excellent advice.

Fortunately I also had/have an understanding GP, and he wrote a 'sick' note to the airline so that I could at least get back part of the air fare, which I could not really afford. Also very fortunately, it was definitely a 'light' cult, the shit soon hit the fan, and Helen was not long under their influence.

There is a page in it on m, who is really the only other cult he mentions. If no one has it I'd be most willing to post it or send it to you for your files as soon as I have the time to learn how to use my new scanner.

I also found many other sections of the book most informative, and not only about the Moonies, but cults and brainwashing in general and other related issues.

I will probably post about some of it in the future.

And BTW, is Nietzsche one of your heroes like Dawkins? ;-) I really like what I've read of Nietzsche, but when I posted I had completely forgotten that writing 'God is dead' is what he is most famous for! It's the same 'God' I got in trouble for inadvertently not realizing that most people think of as 'whatever it is.'

I also especially like that your post subject serves a dual purpose and even hits another issue that's gone down - I'm still smiling.

Sending you hugs that you can roughly push away with a nasty sneer!

Stonor

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Date: Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 23:54:30 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Douche
Subject: Why hit on Nietzsche?! (ot)
Message:
Hello Douche,

I know it's not terribly important, but I am really curious. IMO (and at least a few others) it's not his fault people grossly misinterpreted parts of his writings! Look at what people have done with the Bible among many other texts.

Stonor

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Date: Sat, Jun 10, 2000 at 07:51:22 (GMT)
From: Douche
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Why hit on Nietzsche?! (ot)
Message:
'I teach you the superman. Man is something to be surpassed.... For others do I wait; for higher ones, for stronger ones, more triumphant ones.

Yeah, yeah; I know I quote him out of context, but somehow it all seemed so apt!

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Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 18:29:45 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Douche
Subject: Why hit on Nietzsche?! (ot)
Message:
Hi Douche,

Thanks for taking the time to answer my question. And yeah, I know, and it does seem apt.

BTW, where does your posting name come from? I've been curious because of it's connection to showers and feminine hygiene ;-)

Stonor

(if you don't know and are wondering, mine is my dad's middle name - not that I've never inhaled, but it has nothing to do with that!)

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Date: Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 07:32:56 (GMT)
From: Douche
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Why hit on Nietzsche?! (ot)
Message:
Someone responded to one of my first email postings on the ex-cult.support newsgroup by calling me a douchebag, and it somehow stuck! (Douchebags seem a peculiarily American invention - they're not something you see over on this unwashed side of the great pond.)
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Date: Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 18:58:12 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Douche and Jim and ...
Subject: who allegedly was you or represents you in these
Message:
'who allegedly was you or represents you in these matters.'

And what the FUCK is THAT all about???

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Date: Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 20:20:16 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: who allegedly was you or represents you in these
Message:
I have to agree, cq - very weird, and either extremely evasive, very confused, or a deliberate twisting of the truth (and not on the part of Geocities, either.)
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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 06:09:52 (GMT)
From: Dave
Email: sunriver@colorado.net
To: Everyone
Subject: Get A Life
Message:
So many angry people out here...what a shame. I have no regrets, took what I learned, used it for awhile and moved on. Does Maharajis life style upset me ...hardly. To be caught up in Maharaji bashing is such a huge energy drain. When, was the last time any, or most of you went inside on any level. Take a breath, find some peace in your life..........you people are pretty pathetic. Like Jerry said, 'sometimes you are shown the light, in the strangest places , if you look at it right'. Turn your negative energy into something positive....... you may actually amount to something in life.
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Date: Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 03:02:06 (GMT)
From: windbag
Email: None
To: Dave
Subject: Get A Life
Message:
'Sometimes you see the light when you look in the strangest places'

did you see the sun shining when you stuck your head up your ass?

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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 20:01:42 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Dave
Subject: Urgh right D-Dave
Message:
What about if some people are here for the laughs and the sport, oh wise one from the mountains?
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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 16:00:08 (GMT)
From: DAVE
Email: sunriver@colorado.net
To: all
Subject: Get A Life
Message:
Ouch,...... I logged on to see what M is up to these days. I have a brother who still experiences great inner peace from what we were taught. I'm neither for or against M. In a world filled with hate and contempt, it still amazes me how few people have any spiritual connection in their life at all. Go on, heal yourself, and protect all against the evil M. Maybe we can post it on your gravestone as one of your great accomplishments. Hey Darlene....nice poem)
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Date: Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 19:07:33 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: DAVE
Subject: ... like your brother?
Message:
Dave, you say:'I have a brother who still experiences great inner peace from what we were taught. '

Yup. That's the Maha's BIG selling point. Meditation can bring you peace.

But didn't that same Maha once claim to be the Messiah?

And why should that make a difference?

Depends on whether you prefer to follow a con-artist or not, n'est ce pas?

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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 21:19:59 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: DAVE
Subject: Get A Life
Message:
So true Dave. How divine(oppps),I mean 'sweet' to learn and move on without malice in your heart. But one does have to pass through the ugly stuff first. At least most mortals seem to have to. What is sad for me is how some get stuck long term. I hope your life continues to be 'spiritually connected'. That says it all.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 21:45:58 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Do you think Dave's post was a shining...
Message:
...example of spiritual connectedness? Personally I thought the guy was full of self-important, patronising crap.

(But then, I'm just an attention-seeking egotist - same as you and same as Dave.)

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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 21:57:50 (GMT)
From: keith
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Do you think Dave's post was a shining...
Message:
Come on Nigel, I'm sure that Dave ,you and I have some redeeming features. Giggle,gaggle,hmmmph!
Seriously, I think, give the guy a break. Someone has to be 'sweet' and positive. Besides Bill that is.
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Date: Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 19:02:23 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: keith
Subject: Remember this, Keith
Message:
Remember this, Keith -

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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 20:42:25 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: DAVE
Subject: Get A Life
Message:
Wow you have helped me see the light, I must go return to my laboratory and finish the cure for AIDS and cancer I was working on! It got interrupted when I found the forum!!
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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 20:33:25 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: DAVE
Subject: ...and this IS part of the healing, Dave (nt)
Message:
...and this IS part of the healing, Dave (nt)
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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 16:17:20 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: DAVE
Subject: 9 objections letter
Message:
Dave,

I emailed you a copy of the '9 objections' letter. It is a serious attempt to present the concerns and objections that we have against Mr. Rawat's cult. In case you did not receive the email, I am supplying a link to the
9 objections letter.

As I said in my email, I believe that there are two benefits to the ex-premie site: presenting all the information so that premies and exes can sort through their past involvement with Rawat's cult, and providing all the information for new recruits to the cult so that they can avoid involvement.

If you have any serious comments to make about our concerns and objections, then please let us know. Otherwise, I think the insults you have given us in your simplistic, condescending messages is already sufficient.

If you logged on to see what Maharaji is up to these days, please see his personal website: Maharaji.org, and the website Enjoyinglife.org

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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 21:43:32 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: 9 objections letter
Message:
I have just read the 9 objections letter. Did you compose this on your own Way? Anyway, (no pun intended) I applaud it fully. It is the most balanced,concise yet complete critique that I have read to date. Well done!
It also helps greately to bring me up to date without me having to plough through heaps of threads. So, thanks.
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Date: Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 14:08:07 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: To K, re:9 objections letter
Message:
Keith,

Thanks. I did most of the work on this letter, but with the help of several suggestions that people gave me, both on-line and through email. I was given permission to include the Jagdeo stories (from one of the victims).

I would like to break up the section on finances into two sections, one on finances and one on lifestyle, including first-hand accounts of his excessive drinking. But I don't really have enough verifiable first-hand accounts to back the drinking story up; also, the mistress stories are not yet verifiable enough to include, in my opinion.

The letter is being sent to several people. In fact, it was sent to one of the participants of the meeting this week in LA about propagation. But I doubt that the concerns of the letter were at all addressed in that meeting.

If you have anyone (particularly current aspirants) you think would benefit from receiving the letter, which goes out with references to the websites, please let me know.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 16:21:46 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Good one,Way nt
Message:
om
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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 16:14:00 (GMT)
From: (Sir) David
Email: None
To: DAVE
Subject: Get A Life - you're a liar
Message:
You are a transparent liar and are full of aggression and hatred yourself. It stands out in your two posts like a sore thumb.

I bet there is no 'brother who is experiencing great inner peace from what we were taught.' You've just made that up, I can tell. The person who is wasting there own time here and everyone elses, is you.

Your talk of tombstones etc just shows what an embittered person you are yourself. Only a bitter and rather nasty person talks in such a way. You are a premie, of that I have no doubt and a fine example of what Maharaji's 'teachings' can do to people.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 16:23:13 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: (Sir) David
Subject: Get A Life - you're a liar
Message:
Yes, it was not the wisest thing he could have done.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 14:50:02 (GMT)
From: Colorado Meditator
Email: binduesque@yahoo.com
To: Dave
Subject: Get A Life
Message:
Get a life? Let's see now, who's logging onto the ex-premie site and calling a bunch of strangers 'pathetic?'

Perhaps you think Rawat is a real guru. Sorry, but that's just...pathetic.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 12:47:21 (GMT)
From: Coach
Email: None
To: Dave
Subject: Get A Brain
Message:
How do you know ' Maharaji bashing' is 'such a huge energy drain.' unless you've tried it. I think it's fun. actually. No great shakes, no stress involved. Try it you'll like it.

I refer you to posted answer from the Honorable Member from Scouseland.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 11:46:47 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Dave
Subject: Thank you for those few kind words...
Message:
I am sure we all take due heed, close the forum and acquire for ourselves the productive, fulfilling lifestyles we obviously lack and which you so kindly wish for us...

Now fuck off.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 10:27:23 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: jc@jethro666.screaming.net
To: Dave
Subject: Get A Life
Message:
Maybe you don't understand that many people went to m, because they wanted to see a better world and devoted themselves to that cause. Yes we believed in 'HIM'.
Clearly you were(are) not of that ilk and don't care that he lied thru his teeth, ripped people off, and has protected paedophilles and abusers, because you 'have a nice experience'.

I find it really hard to understand people like you.
Perhaps you'd be willing to meet up sometime, I'm really curious as to how people like you live with yourselves. My email is above if you want to take up my offer.

Jethro


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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 09:53:17 (GMT)
From: (Sir) David
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Dave
Subject: Get A Life - is that the best you can say?
Message:
I took a breath just then. You have no idea what you're saying pal, or who you are addressing.

You could say, for instance, that all of the internet is a drain. I mean, I spend a lot of my net time on horse racing sites. Some would call that a waste of time and a drain, but if I give them a good tip, well, they soon change their tune.

Are all people in Colorado a bit short sighted and unable to see the deeper meaning of something? No, I suspect it's just people who want to support a master who they still believe is God. Now that is the real drain, brother.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 06:30:36 (GMT)
From: Boolean
Email: None
To: Dave
Subject: short sighted Dave
Message:
Lucky for him when he ran the search for 'maharaji' on the internet he ended up 'drained' instead of over at maharaji.com
getting rehooked up to the still present danger of reinvolvement in the cult.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 06:21:39 (GMT)
From: Darlene
Email: None
To: Dave
Subject: Got A Life
Message:
Are you cute Dave? You sound cute.
I am five feet seven..120 lbs..and I live in Colorado.
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Date: Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 02:55:54 (GMT)
From: DAVE
Email: None
To: Darlene
Subject: Where is Darlene
Message:
Tickets for Jackson Brown/ Bruce Hornsby- Red Rocks Tuesday ...wanna come.
Hey elaine and jerry...take a chill pill :)
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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 21:53:08 (GMT)
From: keith
Email: None
To: Darlene
Subject: Got A Life
Message:
Now Darlene , you are not trying that well tried and tested technique of capturing tomorrows devotees of the ex-premie org forum by seducing them with your feminine charms? E-mail me with your phone number if your answer is affirmative. I'll pretend. And I love giggles rather than gaggles. Snuggles even better!
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Date: Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 01:14:24 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: keith
Subject: Got A Life
Message:
Dear Keith,
Don't believe I've ever seen you flirting. :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 01:28:56 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Got A Life
Message:
Ah Robyn. I'm full of surprises. And it's amazing what being single brings out in one. Excuse the pun!
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Date: Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 01:34:42 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Got A Life
Message:
Right on it eh? Nice to see you play. :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 01:37:50 (GMT)
From: keith
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Got A Life
Message:
I am a playful critter at times Robyn. Indeed I'm now going to take my dog and my son to the beach to play. Love, Keith
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Date: Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 01:43:07 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: keith
Subject: Got A Life
Message:
Sounds great Keith except I know it is winter there! :)
Have fun.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 07:49:08 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Thread
Subject: ....giggle
Message:
giggle
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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 11:04:39 (GMT)
From: Darlene
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: ....giggle
Message:
nom ree ooooo 'o'
rerrrrrrnng gay
keeeeeeee o
this is an ancient 'chant'
repeat it religiously and ye shall attain eternal bliss.
P.s.
zelda? lend me 5 bucks so I can
'chat' the OJ line...
lend me 15 bucks..so I can chat the
Charlie MonSoon line...
good god all mitey..Cali Yuga almost over....
half a year 2 go..fresco..
Caliyuga.com....dumbass
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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 16:48:42 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Darlene
Subject: ....giggle
Message:
Darlene

I dont know you very well but the giggle was meant for the thread not you personally. Erase the giggle if it seemed like it was aimed at something you said. I hadnt read your post. Your poetry is not a style I am familir with but I can see how it would grow on one.
Keep on truckin
Z

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Date: Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 14:17:00 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: all
Subject: email from Dave
Message:
Dave seems to have left the building, another one of those rock throwers who come and go so quickly around here. (Gee, I got in three unrelated references in one sentence!) However, I did receive a fairly nice email from him. He only said that he had read the 9 objections letter and that he had not intended to be condescending. He reiterated his stance that the positive approach to life is the best way to go.
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Date: Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 14:51:46 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: email from Dave
Message:
I'm sure he didn't mean to be condescending or judgmental -
good thing we were here as a mirror,thus a teaching tool.

Live and learn.

Elaine

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Date: Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 20:03:12 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: talking of teaching tools ... (steady) ...
Message:
talking of teaching tools ... (steady) ...

Elaine, HOW often did you say you didn't think of Maharaji?

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Date: Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 23:40:59 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: talking of teaching tools ... (steady) ...
Message:
Huh?
Did I ever say anything about thinking about M? Except when maybe Oliver suggested I don't think about him when I meditate - which I said - I never did.

I think about M about as much as I did five years - hardly ever.

Now God - and the joys of meditation - those are a different story.

I'm sorry you've never experienced the universe showering it's happiness on you - I suppose that is saved for those that have crossed over a certain boundary.

I suppose you've never heard the seraphim either.

Really these things exist - I don't mean to be smart-alicky - it's just when something to me is as real as this computer and someone makes fun of it because they've never gone that far into themselves...I tend to imitate their mockery. I'll try not to do it again. I am sure I'll be punished.

Truly -I wish you the best - I'm just having fun.

Elaine

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Date: Sat, Jun 10, 2000 at 14:39:54 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Never heard the seraphim ...
Message:
Never heard the seraphim ... good are they? Can you dance to 'em?

But seriously, as this is the hangover after the night before spent throwing up on the customers (- and I'm none too proud of my lack of subtlety yesterday) I feel I should say, Elaine, that making fun of what you said about your 'meditation making the whole universe happy' - well, I had to do something with that gut reaction of mine.

The universe is a pretty big place (they say), and if you think that you're even making someone as insignificant as little ol' me happy by being a good girl with your meditation - well, honey, there's only one word for an idea like that: - deluded.

Encouraging delusions of grandeur is one of the things I really don't like about some of these so-called 'spiritual' paths. Sure, it might be bliss itself to indulge in the fantasy that 'love is all there is', that 'God' himself listens to and answers your very own prayers, but for me, it just ain't a place I want to go. Too close to self-deception for my liking.

Having said that, I think I should put you straight as regards my ability to open up to my own feelings. Just 'cos you're off with the fairies and angels doesn't make everyone else hard-bitten materialists without the sensitivity to appreciate real joy, you know.

I always thought there was something po-faced about the way some meditators have a tendency to look down on us unenlightened ones. Not that I'm suggesting you're like that, but your post COULD be read that way by someone in a less than generous mood.

But at the end of the day, 'though, it's really none of my business. I wish you well with your meditation.
(but watch out for some of those belief-structures that you've attracted to yourself!)

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Date: Sat, Jun 10, 2000 at 17:27:14 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Never heard the seraphim ...
Message:
Chris,

You said'

I always thought there was something po-faced about the way some meditators have a tendency to look down on us unenlightened ones. Not that I'm suggesting you're like that, but your post COULD be read that way by someone in a less than generous mood.

Hell, I'm ALWAYS in that less-than-generous mood. I about projectile vomited when I read Elaine saying something about the special treats in store for those blessed few who have earned the right to 'cross the line' into the big leagues of meditation (or some such nonsense-too lazy to dig out the exact quote.)

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Date: Sat, Jun 10, 2000 at 22:36:15 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: That's cause I never said it / never would....nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 01:59:23 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Maybe I misread you, care to explain this?
Message:
Now God - and the joys of meditation - those are a different story.

I'm sorry you've never experienced the universe showering it's happiness on you - I suppose that is saved for those that have crossed over a certain boundary.

I suppose you've never heard the seraphim either.

That is what I meant when I said:

Hell, I'm ALWAYS in that less-than-generous mood. I about projectile vomited when I read Elaine saying something about the special treats in store for those blessed few who have earned the right to 'cross the line' into the big leagues of meditation (or some such nonsense-too lazy to dig out the exact quote.)

Care to retract your statement?

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Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 05:33:02 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Maybe I misread you, care to explain this?
Message:
Retract my statement? No.

When sometimes a person 'states' a fact , -others may think it is ego.

Just as when someone is 'firm' in telling someone something clearly - it may be interpreted as 'being yelled at'or 'intense'.

Usually bec it's not the way someone is used to hearing something said.

When people meditate, including my dear friends,I find in talking with them - there is a certain 'point' they don't cross. Either bec of sleepiness or lack of one-pointedness (lack of desire or wavering intention or fear).
There are few, regrettfully, I have talked with that have dedicated their precious time to conquering a certain plateau or boundary in the heart to then experience a truly mystical experience.
There are places inside of us that are absolutely so beyond a typical one hour meditation of boring (peaceful) concentration on one's breath or squeezing of eyes.

There are places I've never spoken of here - I believe we can all experience things beyond our imagination.

Example - The Thousand Petaled Lotus Flower, the realm of the Seraphim - these are just some of the glorious places one doesn't reach without one-pointedness for 'a long time'.

Of all of the many premies I've known - only a few have had truly magical,mystical,'cosmic' meditations...more than a glimpse once-that is.

If you disagree or think I'm condescending - I'm sorry - to me it is a simple fact. Am I firm with my friends - do I encourage them to go deeper,yes.
(Tonight - I took two drinks out of two friends hands that are alcoholics and barf alot and pass out almost nightly ---do I impose my standards on people ---yes.) Others might watch and say how presumptuous - my friends both hugged me and thanked me when alone with me.

Yes, Gerry I'm probably not someone you would like socially - I have standards and discipline and I speak my mind - I can be an imposing presense and am not understood by all.
Do I care -no.

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Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 16:40:09 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Poor, poor Elaine
Message:
Girl, your head really IS full of mush. It's painful to see. Let's take this one idea at time.

Retract my statement? No.
When sometimes a person 'states' a fact , -others may think it is ego.

Yes, in your case I DO think it's ego. What fact? The ''fact'' of your subjective impressions and interpretations of those subjective impressions during meditation?

Just as when someone is 'firm' in telling someone something clearly - it may be interpreted as 'being yelled at'or 'intense'.

Usually bec it's not the way someone is used to hearing something said.

Well, uh, yeah I guess, whatever...

When people meditate, including my dear friends,I find in talking with them - there is a certain 'point' they don't cross. Either bec of sleepiness or lack of one-pointedness (lack of desire or wavering intention or fear).
There are few, regrettfully, I have talked with that have dedicated their precious time to conquering a certain plateau or boundary in the heart to then experience a truly mystical experience.
There are places inside of us that are absolutely so beyond a typical one hour meditation of boring (peaceful) concentration on one's breath or squeezing of eyes.

Well I guess Maharaji's a really lousy meditation teacher and inspiration then, huh? Listen closely, dear. Patty, my wife, never meditated formally in her life. I bought some brain wave tapes (yeah, I'm aware of them, but thanks for your suggestion a while back) and she went to the stratosphere with them. Colors, patterns, sounds, bliss, the whole bit. ON THE FIRST TRY!!! What do you think of that? Gawd's grace? Can you spell brain chemistry?

There are places I've never spoken of here - I believe we can all experience things beyond our imagination.

Example - The Thousand Petaled Lotus Flower, the realm of the Seraphim - these are just some of the glorious places one doesn't reach without one-pointedness for 'a long time'.

Do you even know what you are writing? You say this is an example of what you've never spoken of here. Yet I distinctly recall your writing about this 'Thousand petal Lotus' deal very recently.

I've already refuted this absurd statement ''one pointedness for a long time'' with the example of my wife above. Your contention is just not true. Wake up !!!

Of all of the many premies I've known - only a few have had truly magical,mystical,'cosmic' meditations...more than a glimpse once-that is.

Again, Maharaji's some guru, eh?

If you disagree or think I'm condescending - I'm sorry - to me it is a simple fact. Am I firm with my friends - do I encourage them to go deeper,yes.

(Tonight - I took two drinks out of two friends hands that are alcoholics and barf alot and pass out almost nightly ---do I impose my standards on people ---yes.) Others might watch and say how presumptuous - my friends both hugged me and thanked me when alone with me.

Are your alcoholic friends 'premies?' I try to avoid alcoholics. They make terrible friends. But still, you have no right to impose your standards on ANYONE. How arrogant and presumptuous of you. Have you always been that way or did you learn it in the cult?

Yes, Gerry I'm probably not someone you would like socially - I have standards and discipline and I speak my mind - I can be an imposing presense and am not understood by all.
Do I care -no.

Well, my subjective impression of you is that you are shockingly naive and pushy at the same time. Not a flattering combination, but I'd probably like you just fine socially. Especially if you wore high heels, black fishnet stockings and carried a riding crop...

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Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 17:07:03 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Trying again: to Elaine
Message:
Girl, your head really IS full of mush. It's painful to see. Let's take this one idea at time.

Retract my statement? No.
When sometimes a person 'states' a fact , -others may think it is ego.

Yes, in your case I DO think it's ego. What fact? The ''fact'' of your subjective impressions and interpretations of those subjective impressions during meditation?

Just as when someone is 'firm' in telling someone something clearly - it may be interpreted as 'being yelled at'or 'intense'.

Usually bec it's not the way someone is used to hearing something said.

Well, uh, yeah I guess, whatever...

When people meditate, including my dear friends,I find in talking with them - there is a certain 'point' they don't cross. Either bec of sleepiness or lack of one-pointedness (lack of desire or wavering intention or fear).
There are few, regrettfully, I have talked with that have dedicated their precious time to conquering a certain plateau or boundary in the heart to then experience a truly mystical experience.
There are places inside of us that are absolutely so beyond a typical one hour meditation of boring (peaceful) concentration on one's breath or squeezing of eyes.

Well I guess Maharaji's a really lousy meditation teacher and inspiration then, huh? Listen closely, dear. Patty, my wife, never meditated formally in her life. I bought some brain wave tapes (yeah, I'm aware of them, but thanks for your suggestion a while back) and she went to the stratosphere with them. Colors, patterns, sounds, bliss, the whole bit. ON THE FIRST TRY!!! What do you think of that? Gawd's grace? Can you spell brain chemistry?

There are places I've never spoken of here - I believe we can all experience things beyond our imagination.

Example - The Thousand Petaled Lotus Flower, the realm of the Seraphim - these are just some of the glorious places one doesn't reach without one-pointedness for 'a long time'.

Do you even know what you are writing? You say this is an example of what you've never spoken of here. Yet I distinctly recall your writing about this 'Thousand petal Lotus' deal very recently.

I've already refuted this absurd statement ''one pointedness for a long time'' with the example of my wife above. Your contention is just not true. Wake up !!!

Of all of the many premies I've known - only a few have had truly magical,mystical,'cosmic' meditations...more than a glimpse once-that is.

Again, Maharaji's some guru, eh?

If you disagree or think I'm condescending - I'm sorry - to me it is a simple fact. Am I firm with my friends - do I encourage them to go deeper,yes.

(Tonight - I took two drinks out of two friends hands that are alcoholics and barf alot and pass out almost nightly ---do I impose my standards on people ---yes.) Others might watch and say how presumptuous - my friends both hugged me and thanked me when alone with me.

Are your alcoholic friends 'premies?' I try to avoid alcoholics. They make terrible friends. But still, you have no right to impose your standards on ANYONE. How arrogant and presumptuous of you. Have you always been that way or did you learn it in the cult?

Yes, Gerry I'm probably not someone you would like socially - I have standards and discipline and I speak my mind - I can be an imposing presense and am not understood by all.
Do I care -no.

Well, my subjective impression of you is that you are shockingly naive and pushy at the same time. Not a flattering combination, but I'd probably like you just fine socially. Especially if you wore high heels, black fishnet stockings and carried a riding crop...

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Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 18:42:28 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: gerry
Message:
Ok, let's see...
...M's a really lousy med. teacher & inspiration then,huh?

Guess you've missed some of my posts - yes,that's one of my gripes - he could be lots better - again- even my devout premie friends have to resort to reading other masters for guidance.

Do you even know what you're writing?.....I distinctly recall....1000 P Lotus ...very recently.

So picky,gee, sorry, I left out never spoken of here,until recently. Jeez. Those just came to mind to give examples - there are plenty of things I haven't talked about here - that was to give an idea of the esoteric stuff I was referring to and more.

Re: your wife's experiences and brain tapes...

Sounds very nice. Now I don't know this for a fact - but in general - with almost anything - if something is 'manufactured' or gotten easily - the value of it is usuallly not taken as seriously. Example - a clean bodybuilder that has won a competition, compared to a steriod induced win. Do you see what I'm getting at. Please, don't read into this and belabor this more. Yes, the steriod win is wonderful,OK? But, it doesn't mean exactly the same thing to both parties,IMO.
Yes, using outside means to have a great experience is fun and all - but, what value does it have when the batteries are low.

Yes, I've had plenty of drug induced incredible experiences - they don't mean as much as the ones that I got meditating.Sorry.
One's like a 'fake diploma' on my wall and one's like 'years of hard work' for my degrees.
Sorry that's how I feel.

Oh, and no the alcoholics are not premies and one has never heard his name.
Why is it that somehow everything for you is related in some way to premies or GMJ?

...you have no right to impose your standards on ANYONE.How arrogant and presumptuous of you......did you learn it in the cult?'

And yes, I have every right,
every second of the day
to impose my standards,
if I so choose,
on anyone I wish,
at any time I wish
---
whether it's the boy cutting my grass or the checkout girl at the market or a friend making themselves sick yet again.
I have standards constantly that I impose on the restaurant I frequent to the mechanic I go to and especially my health care provider.

Arrogant and presumptuous,no ---clear and forthright.

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Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 18:55:29 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Whatever you say Elaine
Message:
So you don't want me to dwell on your steroid/body builder analogy. Could that be because it is a very weak and poorly constructed one?

Can't you get that all your efforts and practise are for naught? Of course that's tough to admit, but honesty isn't your strong suit, is it Elaine?

And yes, I have every right,
every second of the day
to impose my standards,
if I so choose,
on anyone I wish,
at any time I wish---
whether it's the boy cutting my grass or the checkout girl at the market or a friend making themselves sick yet again.
I have standards constantly that I impose on the restaurant I frequent to the mechanic I go to and especially my health care provider.

Sorry Elaine. This just doesn't wash. Of course you get your way with the peole you are employing. Other than that, your statement just reeks of a spoiled, immature and grossly self-indulgent individual.

Now what about those fishnet stockings???

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Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 22:09:32 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Whatever you say Elaine
Message:
Do you even know what self-indulgence means?
Spoiled I am not and certainly not immature.

If you think the statement reeks of that there's nothing left to say to you.

When you 1st mentioned the fish-net stockings I couldn't even bring myself to comment it was so stupid and sexist - so typical of the male ego, which I'm sorry is your burden this lifetime. It was probably mine many times.
But, since you attempt at liteness after insults, yet again...I can only say it is certainly wasted on me in this thread anyway.

'Effort and practise' in anything you seek or enjoy is never a waste.
Where exactly do you come up with these things?

And PS - I'm thru with you - I know it's not the most mature thing - but, it's a waste of my time - I'm sure you were realizing that for yourself,also. Writing with you I feel I have come down a notch or two - that's not where I want to be.

Honest enough for you,gerry.

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Date: Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 00:15:09 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Elaine's shadow side finally emerges...
Message:
Give it a big kiss, honey, cuz it's you, too.

Elaine, I have nothing against you. When I say all your efforts and practising is for naught, I mean that your desperate attempt at becoming that WHICH YOU ALREADY ARE, is futile.

Relax a lttle. This hyper vigilance and spiritual striving is rather unbecoming. And I bet you look great in fishnet stockings...

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Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 17:39:47 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: to Gerry re: brain wave tapes (ot)
Message:
Greetings Gerry,

I'm curious about what you wrote here:

Well I guess Maharaji's a really lousy meditation teacher and inspiration then, huh? Listen closely, dear. Patty, my wife, never meditated formally in her life. I bought some brain wave tapes (yeah, I'm aware of them, but thanks for your suggestion a while back) and she went to the stratosphere with them. Colors, patterns, sounds, bliss, the whole bit. ON THE FIRST TRY!!! What do you think of that? Gawd's grace? Can you spell brain chemistry?

If you have a minute I'd appreciate more info about what 'brain wave tapes' are and how they are used. Were there any lasting benefits of any kind? Did she want to 'do' the brain wave tapes again? Maybe I should have e-mailed her a few weeks ago! ;-) Is there any correspondence between the effects of brainwave tapes and isolation/flotation tanks, a la 'Altered States?'

Anyways, take care.

Stonor

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Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 18:45:21 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: to Gerry re: brain wave tapes (ot)
Message:
Hi Stonor,

How are ya? Nice to talk wid choo.

The brain wave synchronisation theory originated with the Monroe institute, as far as I can tell. There's a lot of info available on the web. Try a search on 'brain wave synchronicity.' Or Monroe. Yeah he's the obe guy.

Unfortunately I bought my tapes (they were really expensive) from a guru wannabe who calls himself (gag, barf) 'Master Charles.' A spinoff of that perv Muktananda. This was a couple of years ago before I got my head screwed on really tight like it is now...

But I digress. I got to that website because the name of the site is 'synchronicity.org. I highly dis-recommend them, he is a charlatan for sure--but brain wave synchronicity is for real.

If you have a minute I'd appreciate more info about what 'brain wave tapes' are and how they are used. Were there any lasting benefits of any kind? Did she want to 'do' the brain wave tapes again? Maybe I should have e-mailed her a few weeks ago! ;-) Is there any correspondence between the effects of brainwave tapes and isolation/flotation tanks, a la 'Altered States?'

I just asked Patty your question. She has no desire to continue, because she felt it was a waste of time and because she didn't trust the maker of the tape and was wary that there were subliminal messages in the tape. She said she liked the experience and that at first it was a little scary. Feel free to e-mail her at pflyng@techline.com. I do believe there would be lasting effects of listing to these tapes but I'm not sure of their nature.

I'm not sure if there is a connection to flotation tanks, but somehow I doubt it. The tapes (there are lottsa version out there) DO entrain your brain, while the tanks are sensory deprivation. Synchronicity.org has some good info on their effects, but then they are a cult so beware. (I'm sure you'd pick up on that vibe quickly even though I didn't.)

Hope this helps.

Jai,

gerry the terrible

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Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 21:39:35 (GMT)
From: Stonora
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: to Gerry re: brain wave tapes (ot)
Message:
Hi Gerry,

I'm doing fine, thanks.

And thank you for the info. I just checked it out briefly and will spend more time on it when I get more. Fascinating - according to the FAQs at synchronicity.org, you can't become 'addicted,' but you can 'overdose!?' Interesting too that Patty found it a waste of time.

They have some free stuff at their site. Maybe I'll try it - I'm sure someone here will catch me if i start posting suspiciously 'cult' like things ;-) But I think I'll ask Patty a few more questions about her experience first. I did still have her e-mail address and my other web related data too, until the final crash - very faulty hardware according to the techies who couldn't retrieve it :-(

I looked into 'Master' Charles too. His connections to Muktananda I didn't find yet, but interesting how these gurus let their followers 'elevate' their status. When I looked into Meer Baba or someone last winter, I read the weirdest transcript of a dialogue between him and some of his devotees about whether or not he was 'The' Avatar. ('Do you think that I am the Avatar?' etc.)

Nice talking wid choo tchoo!

Stonor(a)

PS. What do you think Gerry, should I come out on a regular basis or keep the more neutral Stonor to keep those sexists (women included ;-) on their toes?

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Date: Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 00:57:24 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Stonora
Subject: to Gerry re: brain wave tapes (ot)
Message:
Stonora, (Isn't that a state in Mexico? You know, Don Juan and stuff?)

Synchronicity.org used to have a FAQ which asked 'Is this a cult?' But for some reason, they removed it. I swear the several e-mails I sent to them about just that topic had nothing to with it... hehe

They hide Chuckie's connection with Yuctananda for good reason, though he is quite out front about it in his 'autobiography' (which I have.) That book is the biggest bunch of made up whooey I've read since Autobiography of a Yogi.

One caveat, I do think it is very possible they 'dose' their tapes with subliminal messages, perhaps of the hypersonic type. Christ, after about a month of meditation using these tapes I wanted to move close to their ashram in VA! Yikes!

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Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 21:16:46 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Dettmers' Hemi-synch product is from Monroe I.(nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 22:00:04 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Dettmers' Hemi-synch product is from Monroe I.(nt)
Message:
Hi G!

I've been wanting to talk with you, but my recent computer nightmare put an end to that possibility unless you e-mail me again at the sympatico address. I hope you do!

And I noticed the Hemi-synch stuff when I did a search - talk about the information (overload) age - more and more to look into.

Have you tried any of this type of tapes? What do you think of these chemical/sound/spiritual experiences connections? I've found a rather interesting description of meditation in a book that I hope to post for some feedback once I've installed my scanner.

How's the piano playing coming along?

Stonor

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Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 23:35:22 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: your email address
Message:
Can you give it to me? I don't have a sympatico address for you.
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Date: Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 00:13:03 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: apoul@netscape.net
To: G
Subject: your email address
Message:
Stupid story (will explain), but this will do for the time being I suppose, given the context.

Stonor

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Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 23:00:37 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Dettmers' Hemi-synch product
Message:
I've never tried this type of tape, I don't know what to think of it, I don't understand why it has an effect. In terms of chemicals, I've only tried alcohol and pot. With pot, I had altered states but nothing cosmic. So I don't know.

The piano playing is coming along ok, I'm improving a little, it's enjoyable. I think I'll get into learning jazz.

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Date: Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 00:02:05 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Geons, Black Holes and Quantum Foam
Message:
Hi G,

I wasn't thinking so much of personal experience, but more in general (I really don't have that much experience with anything other than pot or alcohol either, and I've grown more and more tired of the downsides with both of them - and as for 'cosmic' experiences, can't say I'd describe any of my 'altered state' experiences that way.).

While I was doing the search on 'brain wave synchronicity,' I came across this site: Geons, Black Holes & Quantum Foam

You're far more knowledgable about this quantum stuff (and from reading your posts, more of a philosopher too, among other things!) than I am, and probably you've already come across this. Here's an excerpt that I thought you might find interesting after trying to folow some of your quantum discussion below - 'brain' is not the same as 'mind', but tough to explain or understand exactly:

I have, in the spirit of humble grace, been given a universal theory of sentience at Level 3, which fulfills Einstein's principle of relativity first conceived by him at Level 1. Sentience is the warping of Bohm's Level 2 field of non-material quantum information by Level 1 matter-geometry, just as Level 1 universal gravity is the warping of Level 1 geometry by Level 1 matter as shown by Einstein in 1915. This is a theory for ALL minds human and otherwise.

Mind is non-material i.e. not Level 1, but it is still physical. Post-modern physics has a much broader notion of 'physical' than what you learned as a child. Remember Saint Paul 'when I was a child, I thought as a child' on the tinkling of Bell's theorem 'through the looking glass darkly'.:-)

Properties of post-quantum sentient fields (thanks to Ken Jenkens):

'Appreciation of beauty and ecstasy

Sense of humor

Original creativity and imagination

Love and commitment

Conscious choice

Appreciation of enchantment-

Appreciation of the unknown

Self transcendence - that which must ever surpass itself'.

Yes, all of these are properties of Level 3 spontaneously sentient post-quantum fields of mental information. Shannon's theory of Level 1 classical information is for matter, Bohm's new theory of
Level 2 quantum information is prerequisite for mind. Mind is the two way dialogue or exchange between Level 1 Shannon information and Level 2 Bohm information.

An interesting list, isn't it? I think I'm reading about a lot of the same things in different books, but they use different terminology with slight variations, so it gets confusing. I find that as I keep reading and reflecting it gradually comes together, and I catch vague glimpses of a bigger picture. I certainly get the feeling that it is all moving in the same direction.

Learning jazz? You're really ambitious - I've just hit my vacation (apart from the one month contract in July that will help to take care of my recent computer expenses), so I'm hoping to continue to explore that Gurdjieff piece I want to learn. So many things, so little time.

Take care G, and I do hope to hear from you.

Stonor

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Date: Sat, Jun 10, 2000 at 17:50:25 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Never heard the seraphim ...
Message:
I think she said it was something about a 'boundary', so (as is my wont) I did a search on my favourite joke site and came up with some REAL philosophy. Dig this:


REAL LIFE DEFINITIONS

Ability - what you have to get by on if you don't kiss up to the
boss

Adult Education - a strenuous effort to learn stuff that bored
you when you were young enough to profit from it

B.A. - a degree indicating the holder has mastered the first
two letters of the alphabet -- backwards

Bride - a woman who puts her foot down as soon as her new
husband carries her across the threshold

Career Girl - a woman who gets a man's salary without
marrying one

Clever Girl - a woman who knows how to give a man her own
way

College - an institution where you learn how to use
punctuation marks, but not what to put between them

Domestic harmony - music produced when a husband plays
second fiddle

Education - what you have left over when you subtract what
you've forgotten from what you've learned

Experience - what you think you have until such time you
acquire more

Good breeding - that quality which enables a person to wait in
well mannered silence, while the loudmouth gets service

Idiot - any person who fails to see your point in a discussion

Lawyer - a cat that settles differences between two mice

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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 05:47:04 (GMT)
From: sam
Email: -
To: Everyone
Subject: journeys-good/bad
Message:
I'm surprised from reading 'journeys' how many people said they had such good experiences- which I can relate to my good times. But I'm surprise they ever left- but guess it was more M than his imaje they left more than K or meditation. I've felt just as good only practising part time. One thing that really turned me off was not so much M but my ex partner. I introduced him to K in the70's, lost touch and got back together in 90's. At first I thought it wasgreat to have K in common- but I saw the brainwash and hiding from life through him. He'd have to go home with a headache if he went out before practice. A spectator sport game- home to bed and under the blanket to recover from the world. People coming around - under blanket when guests arrive for first half hour getting ready to face the chit-chat. This is a person who practises full on so what advantage has he reaped? Seemed K has taken his life and he doesn't seem to be
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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 06:41:24 (GMT)
From: green eggs and ham
Email: None
To: sam
Subject: journeys-good/bad
Message:
I also know someone like that.
His actual behaviours in close relationships has been to warm up to someone then to coldly rebuff them because his 'heart' was reserved for his lord/guru. When you have a guru as lord, seems you are crippled.
Whodathunk?
He DID promise us the inner realm of the heart.
But of course we were to only have it for him.
You got to be cold to banish mom for 17 years till she dies.
Even if she continued to not want to see you as lord of the universe, after 15 years, she has been punished enough.
Bring the grandkids to see her.
But NOOOOOOOOOOOO.

The master of life has to be tough!

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Date: Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 02:01:07 (GMT)
From: sam
Email: None
To: green eggs and ham
Subject: journeys-good/bad
Message:
Iwas like that too- told people-sorry, I dont feel love for humans as its not true love for the master
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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 01:38:01 (GMT)
From: Gilead
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Mother Meera and The Lord of the Universe
Message:
Does anyone know if the boy, Guru Maharaj Ji, ever met with the girl, Mother Meera, back in the 1970's? Or, as adults, these days? They both teach being avatars, etc. But, does Maharaji still say he is the Lord of the Universe? I wrote to their web site, but never get a reply on this topic.
What do you ex premies think of Mother Meera? Would you follow her instead?
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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 02:54:31 (GMT)
From: sam
Email: None
To: Gilead
Subject: Mother Meera and The Lord of the Universe
Message:
not if she thinks she's god I wouldn't follow her- never again for me .
Is she the woman about 50 - 60 -red spot on forehead?
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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 01:56:28 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Gilead
Subject: Mother Meera and The Lord of the Universe
Message:
To answer your questions:
No way.
No fucking way.
No.
No comment.
One avatar per lifetime is more than enough.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 21:19:01 (GMT)
From: Gilead
Email: None
To: sam
Subject: Mother Meera and The Lord of the Universe
Message:
sam,
no, Mother Meera is about forty years old, I think. She's got a web site, you can do search under Mother Meera, and you will see it.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 00:09:46 (GMT)
From: poet
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: you
Message:
Somehow I really like this site.It is so much fun for me to level some abuse at all of you. But, then why stop there,I mean there is always people like my family and friends and of course myself.

Maybe I could become as talented as all of you seem to be.

But then am I really sincere enough for this site yet? I mean am I 'ready'? Have I shown that I have what it takes to be one of the few the proud the ... ? What is you all call yourselves? 'The Free'?

Even if you don't, at least I feel free here. That what it is all about isn't it? Freeing people from all the lies.

What lies benieth the dream? I for one wish to find out. The news you have here is old news. But, then it is good that anyone coming along for the first time knows some history,less it has a way of repeating itself.

The problem is that you will never stop the finacial structures of the world and how they are set up to be manipulated by those in the know. i.e. those with enough cash flow.

The one thing that I have ever seen here that did describe the way to really get at M.s operation, was crashed and never appeared again. Interesting.'have we been hacked?'

This was back a little over a year ago. I think that there is a very good chance that this site is being 'managed.'

Set up the site fill it full of abuse and disredit any who would speak out against. Strange but that is what I would do. I imagine that is what someone with M.s conections would do. Prempt the wave of the net and do damage control. jsca. Come on go for it send me some of that famous gut wrenching badness. Boys go for it. Right?

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Date: Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 01:09:21 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: poet
Subject: No Text is (nt)
Message:
om
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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 12:53:02 (GMT)
From: Coach
Email: None
To: poet
Subject: The Martian Ambassador
Message:
Welcome to Earth. Have some chocolate. Please switch on your translation device.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 03:09:21 (GMT)
From: Attorney General
Email: None
To: poet
Subject: What about calling me to talk about the boy? nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 06:38:49 (GMT)
From: poet
Email: None
To: Attorney General
Subject: What about calling me to talk about the boy? nt
Message:
Never. What does 'nt' mean. Fondly yours, from the functionally
illiterate.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 01:04:40 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: poet
Subject: huh?
Message:
hay thair, I din't understand (a.k.a. stand under) none of that
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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 06:53:05 (GMT)
From: poet
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: huh?
Message:
All are suspect. Got it? Set up a site to gather your enemies,and then dicredit the site and all who use it, from within.

Selectively edit any dangerous info. that comes along,while promoting the idea that resistance is futile. Maybe the
'Att. Gen.' knows more? He seems to want to talk. Not me though.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 17:24:58 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: poet
Subject: Ok, poet, Rob, Spammy the Rapper, etc.
Message:
yeah, yeah, yeah
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Date: Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 06:21:35 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Come on, Roger, who cares anymore?
Message:
Really, Rog, who gives a fuck about Rob, etc.? Old hat, isn't it? I mean, like really, you know?
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Date: Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 19:52:13 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Jim
Subject: Absolutely, Rob is old news!
Message:
And he probably is not Spammy the Rapper either. I just like to kid him, that's all.
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Date: Sat, Jun 10, 2000 at 19:20:33 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Yeah I'm ROTFL
Message:
Passive aggressive describes you best. Stick your little digs in and then turn it into a joke when challenged. I think you're a sad, lonely little man J, but I forgive you for it, even if I puke in the process:)
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Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 19:00:58 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Rob
Subject: Right!
Message:
And if you are...

Neverfuckingmind, Rob, you is such a piece of shit...

Not gonna waste any more time on you

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Date: Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 01:34:56 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Excuse me? NT
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 19:46:37 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Time to water the plants.
Message:
My personal take on 'poet' is that we're dealing with Mary here, but who the fuck cares??

Hey,this must be loads of fun for you!! Whether it's Mary or Rob, you get to play with your cohorts. Playing off each other, pointing the finger at each other, in order to make the situation as confusing as possible (not to mention the slew of aliases people like yourself, Mary and Rob go through)

BTW,nice job in getting the House of Drek taken off the net, while masking the real reason behind it. Namely the site was so full of shit, the longer it would have stayed on line, the greater the risk it would have been exposed as the work of a cult operative.

Yes siree, that's my take on the situation.

PS: I hope you bring the site back, just to prove me wrong.
OR,
I hope Maharaji sues you, just to prove me wrong.
OR,
I hope SOMEBODY sues ME, just to prove me wrong.

Whatever, it'll be lots of fun!!

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Date: Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 01:43:06 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Ditto.
Message:
Hey Joey,

I'd appreciate it if you'd leave me out of your private war with drek. I have always posted only as Rob, and think I have been very patient so far following the character assassination instigated by him when he created Blackdog, aka Cerberus aka who-the-hell-knows who else and set me up as the patsy, but... patience is wearing thin.

Mary I know little of other than the 3 of you have a *history*. I rarely post here, but still I don't wish to be thrown in the pot with her.

Unless you can *prove* any of your allegations re aliases, please shut the fuck up.

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Date: Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 04:18:30 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Rob
Subject: Sure, Rob, whatever you say... (nt)
Message:
oh, fuck, I've got amnesia again. Rob? Who's Rob? Cerberus? Huh? I know nothing, NOTHING!
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Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 01:40:00 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Not just me saying it though, is it? (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 00:38:48 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: OK, who'll vouch for Joey's frame of mind here?
Message:
Come on, guys, what do you think? Roger Drek 'cult operative' or Joey Falowitz, confused and paranoid gentleman?
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Date: Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 04:16:37 (GMT)
From: Roger eCult-Operative
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Jim
Subject: OK, who'll vouch for Joey's frame of mind here?
Message:
Joey, you sick fat fuck!

Dude, what is your story?

Me thinks it's got to be methamphetamine or ketamine or whatever and bouts of being institutionalized in hospitals or jails. What else could explain your completely insane bizarre and sporadic behavior?

Joey, you need help. Go back to Maharaji. Anything.

I cannot fucking believe that I forgave you like I did. Gag, choke, vomit.

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Date: Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 01:57:50 (GMT)
From: (Sir) David
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: OK, who'll vouch for Joey's frame of mind here?
Message:
I have it on good authority that Roger eDrek is a cult operative and is a member of that little known yet fast expanding cult who worship a she-male god.

Click here to see the shocking evidence for yourself and is this Roger Cult-Operative's voice we hear? I think Joey is onto something here!

BTW, now you can hear the She-male god giving satsang on the site as well as the adoration from his devotee. Listen to his words of wisdom from this great she-male Lord. They are the reason words were invented!

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Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 18:59:41 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: (Sir) David
Subject: Rob, you've got me now! You and Joey can...
Message:
round up a posse, catch me, and have a lynching!

Yee Haw, ride 'em cowboy!

Come on, Rob, you is the Cult Operative Deluxe! How much are they paying YOU! Or is it for the love of YOUR Master?

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Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 21:09:58 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Roger, shut the fuck up about this 'Rob' shit!!!!
Message:
Christ, Roger!

What are you trying to do? No one wants another round of all that stuff. You know it and yet here you go again! Why?

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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 00:13:37 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: poet
Subject: me
Message:
Not me. I totally support free speech. Go on hombre!
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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 06:33:33 (GMT)
From: poet
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: me
Message:
Thanx,how are those crystal clear skys in N.M.?
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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 06:16:21 (GMT)
From: HyperHippy
Email: None
To: you
Subject: BeHereNOW.BE NOWHERE
Message:
ever trip on the front cover of the book BE HERE NOW
ever just gaze @ it.
I read some of your posts KEITH..not bad...some of it..
as for the House of Drek..
wouldn't it be libelous if someone said/wrote
that your ant tillie was a hoe and that she did crack.?
yeah...I think that would be libel..punishable by big brother.
this site utters crap like that and whether I am 'popeye' or 'bluto' is not the issue...
I could be and ex....or a 'y'..or a cray 'Z'.
the point is.....making libelous statements is .......
for i.e.:::::::what if I said that the only 'sisters' visiting
this here site...were old smelly hags..fat ones...really
smelly fat ugly wanna be dykes...now..would that be posted?
would it be libelous? Is it true?
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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 20:44:25 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: HyperHippy
Subject: BeHereNOW.BE NOWHERE
Message:
Be more specific please. What are the points you are really making. Please tell. I am interested. E-mail me if you want.
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Date: Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 22:56:09 (GMT)
From: Guru Maharaj Ji leaflet
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: being auctioned
Message:
http://pw1.netcom.com/~mykelb/sixties.html
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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 07:19:19 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Guru Maharaj Ji leaflet
Subject: Wouls you scan it? and email it to me?
Message:
I'd love to see it and have it on my website.
I have quite some others from that time, as well as big posters ...

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Date: Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 23:12:02 (GMT)
From: me
Email: None
To: Guru Maharaj Ji leaflet
Subject: being auctioned
Message:
address = error. what yr.?
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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 14:31:32 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: All
Subject: What items do you all have if you auctioned
Message:
If you wanted to make money or win a contest of who had the neatest 'thing' from the old days or an item of M's ---What would that be?

I have a laminated LA ad when M said 'I declare I will bring peace to this world.' - almost full page - excellent condition.:)

Elaine

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Date: Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 22:52:56 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: another reason why no regrets
Message:
It is a simple and undeniable fact that words have touched my soul. What I mean by 'soul' is that part of me that responds and experiences in a more profound way than just my body,emotion and mind. At those times, it is as if I understand and perceive in a more insightful,inspired depth. My everyday mind can scoff at such illuminated times. Or a type of merger can take place over time. Whereby I rarely feel completely out of touch with my soul. In fact, by not rejecting 'it' I become more and more 'it'. I realise that is more who I really am than my body, surface emotions or mind. This is not a recipe for the dangerous duality between soul and ego or mind. It is an invitation to integrate all parts of oneself. If this type of expression seems new agey to some, so be it. I use words to convey. Not to scientifically or intellectually discect. Now comes a bit that some will jump on for. Maharaji too touched my soul many times. And that is another reason why I can be grateful and have no regrets. Because I have
experienced so much 'grace' in my life. Getting hung up with the words just misses the point. Ok. I know words are evocative. I understand they are also associative. And my use of certain words evokes hostile reactions. But I also react when someone calls me a fucking idiot,etc. One needs to dig deeper. Where is someone really coming from? What is someone really trying to convey?
It is in the deeper realm beyond surface reactions that souls can meet. Where a deeper communion can occur. Without this deeper experience life gets reduced NOT TO A MORE REAL PLACE , but rather to a more superficial and bland place ruled by an overly superficial mental self. The soul is a reality that longs for recognition. When I've been touched by someones words on the level of soul all the petty resistences and mental gymnastics subside. And a sweet and profound understanding and joy occurs. Sound a bit like M? Well. This experience is afterall universally
attainable. It is the real part of ourselves. The most real. This does not mean I suspend my criticisms of Maharaji or premiedom. Not at all. But within the entire context of my past involvements with Maharaji,Krishnamurti and others (including little ol'nobodies like me and many friends and lovers) I want to include this aspect of experience so easily taken for granted, forgotten or intellectually analyised into oblivion.
Altered states of consciousness do not replace more ordinary states but include then in a greater wholeness.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 03:56:11 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Hmmm
Message:
Kieth I know a whole lot of people and a bunch of them tell me thier innermost thoughts and I know a lot of kids and I interact with them daily. I cannot see where there is ''a deaper realm where souls can meet and interact.''

Are you too lonely in your life where ever you live?
Or are you not able to find others around you who want to talk about their more private views on life and god?

You might be in a town or location that you should move from.
Or maybe you may find, like a premie sister who called me a couple nights ago, that even though she still sort of believes in M, she attends her local Unitarian church for the 'community', as she put it.
I understand her.
When you are too alone things get a distortion and the only solution may be to immerse your self with others.

Some folks volunteer.
That is definately a usually successful route.
A job in a day care center for a few months can be very healing and grounding. I used to have a knack for guessing who at a party was a nurse. A new job in a people environment where you get some good interaction, not a cashier job perhaps, and/or
a singles bar or a mens group. You wont find any eastern religion mens groups. eastern religious thinking runs you headlong into coldness.

If it is human warmth you are after, you can do your self a favor by running from the cold clutches of krishnamurti and m and all your previous eastern influenced 'guides'.

take a fresh leap into the human pool and accept your human nature limitations that you and all others are bound by, and give others warmth and leave the ideas in the books.
Just try to love and accept others and just be a simple regular guy and deal only with what you see in front of you and if you do drinking and drugs, even occasionally, give it up for a while because you need a break from those kind of dreams.

You can have your real dream come true.
And that, it seems clear to me by reading your posts, is the dream of loving and being loved. In a group, a family, a community. You need to realize how impossible it is for people to live constantly in a loving state, and sow and reap as much love as you can without being bummed by the fact that we can only try but you cant get everyone on board your dream.

There are groups of people that talk the lingo of love in your
town. Seek them out. Move your houseing, your job, or try to make a heaven out of the folks around you now.
You will see life help you in that effort.

The saying goes, 'happy are those that dream dreams and are willing to do what it takes to make them come true.'

Your dream (slightly altered) is very possible.
You have time.

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Date: Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 10:09:15 (GMT)
From: Harry
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Hmmm
Message:
Hi Bill, mind telling me how you could guess if someone was a nurse at a party. What was it about them?
Harry
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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 14:42:13 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: bill that was so....sweet
Message:
and so right on. Aw gosh, you got me all mushy now dang ya. Where's gErRy??
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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 05:17:21 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Hmmm, grrrr.
Message:
oh BILL, you assume so much it makes me cringe. You are so far off the mark. Don't give up your day job. I shall not share the mote intimate details of my life on this open medium , but I can assure you nothing you have said comes even close to the reality of my life. Grrrr.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 16:06:41 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Address anything to me,then
Message:
Keep writing.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 05:33:40 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: ha ha ha
Message:
And I thought you would laugh at the day care suggestion!

Your post down below talks about how we take a part of a post and the respond into it so I thought I would do it for fun.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 05:56:33 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: ha ha ha
Message:
that should read............and theN respond into it.

I still think it is funny.
Cmon, I think you might be Anon.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 20:48:54 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: ha ha ha
Message:
ha ha ha .Feel better now? Ok. As Gerry said and I might agree just for fun. Ain't Bill sweet!
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Date: Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 04:26:41 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Kieth.. a night of aggression explained
Message:
Hi there Kieth,
Well, who knows what that post contains. I cant remember.

But I do know what the night was like and what was the intent.

In the evening, my 19 year old and his basketball buddies all from the inner city and all whom I know, came over and hung out in the big room. I was in and out of it all night. They are highly aggressive and the banter was peppered with trash talking, which is a kind of verbal battleing that you and I probably didnt encounter growing up. Thier music is loaded with aggression and tough talking rappers posing as well, know it alls!
They would scrap with one another and Mike the 19 year old asked me if I wanted to fight. I said 'yeah' and well, lucky for me he wouldnt dare actually hit me (his freinds would jump him) and I got in a light slap on his cheek and he ran off giving me the win. After taking one of them home, I stop at the local brew pub and saw someone and got a TullymoreDew and a beer.

getting home, I come to read the forum,
Reading your lower thread about Krishnamurti, I again recognise that you are a smart cookie and I think I see you mention the comment about how we pull one sentence out of a post and do a whole post on that. Maybe missing the bulk of the post or not including it in our response.
Seeing you recent thread, I decide to do exactly that for fun and courtesy of the bar stop and the night of aggression, I type what I imagine at the time is a transparant spoof.

Who knows what it says, I wont read it!
It was meant in mirth but I am sure it is incoherant!
Or would be better if it was totally incoherent.

Apologies for any and all affronts!
trash talking in that company is hard edge but is a form of battering that all those guys have accepted as ok when coming from their friends. It is a mix of sarcasm and sincerity and allows (I guess!) a way for them to say more things to one another than thier inner city aloofness and apparent cold public persona would seem to allow.

I have made a point of not posting when drinking, for some it works wonderfully.

It was just letters on your screen Kieth, I respect your thinking. The comment about Anon was not what I meant. I saw as I hit the post button that what I typed and what I meant to convey werent the same at all. I know of course you are not Anon, I meant you think with depth and express articulately about your approval of eastern thinking and that Anon does that also.

Oh well! Whatever!
On m's website, he says at one point, 'someday I will be sober'
One of those 12 steps involves correcting wrongs.
He needs to walk those steps.
this post hopefully corrects any wrongs I did in your direction. Well, It SEEMED funny and obvious at the time.

I didnt read Gerry's post yet, I didnt want to be influenced by anything till I wrote this one.
I wonder if I should read it, yeah of course I will, I always read Gerry, but I may wait a couple days, I hate to find myself on the disapproving side of Gerry!

Well, Goodnight Kieth!

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Date: Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 17:27:54 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Kieth.. a night of aggression explained
Message:
I hate to find myself on the disapproving side of Gerry!

Thaaaaatsssss riiiiiiight bill. Wouldn't want this to happen:

*>* bam! *<* oofff!

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Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 06:33:52 (GMT)
From: Killer Burke
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: Kieth.. a night of aggression explained
Message:
Nice work Gerry, I know that takes codeing to do that face.

A few punches would feel like home!

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Date: Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 05:02:56 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Kieth.. a night of aggression explained
Message:
I just read the post I just made and I would like to do another
without all that.

Kieth, I make a big effort at work and home and wherever to not criticise and to put a good spin on a subject.
As an example EARLIER yesterday after work, I went to the center of town and sat on a bench in an area where they are putting in all these new items (fountain, statue ect) but you cant see anything nice yet. A man came up and started talking to me about all this mess they are making in this historical area and asked me what I thought about this and that change. I refused say anything like how it was a mess but just kept sayinghopeful positive things. Turned out he was on the commitee that was doing this project. Glad I stuck to the sunny side of the street!

My last post to you was about your son as you may recall.
I read the threads where as you mentioned you sometimes get called names. You might notice I dont usually mix it up on many issues here although I do read them because we have so many great posters.
Once I had to apologise to SELENE of all people, I forgot who I was typeing to and I must have been drunk!
I also believe I may have also had to make amends to one or two others. Probably SHP or Mili or Bobby.

Reminds me of when I was in High school, I came from a family of hard hitting sarcasm at the dinner table and of course I would do it at school. One time, a freind came up to me and told me that it hurts. This was a strong guy and a close friend. I told him I would stop and I didnt know it was affecting people.
For some reason I was able to stop.
(except when I see my sisters at the holidays!)

Got to stop this post sometime!
I would like to hope that a fresh start could be the way it is.
I dont want to Grrr you.

By the way, I see it is Jerry not Gerry.
Same respect either way.

bill

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Date: Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 05:20:14 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: No worries mate. Aussie slang!
Message:
Bill. For me , seeing the positive in things keeps the soul smiling and helps the aging process. You sound like a decent bloke who loses it sometimes like I do. Imperfectness is humanities middle name but I still can say I love life and like most people. Take care, buddy.
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Date: Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 04:40:08 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Kieth.. a night of aggression explained
Message:
Wow Bill. I unconditionally and whole heartedly forgive you. And am surpiised and flattered by the positive comments you make about me. Anyone who likes me must be swell in my book. Ha Ha.
Goodnight Bill.
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Date: Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 23:48:45 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: another reason why no regrets
Message:
If this type of expression seems new agey to some, so be it. I use words to convey.

No, Keith, it just sounds like the outlook of somebody, as yet, uneducated in the body/soul/brain/mind connection. It's all intertwined. It all relies on our central nervous system. I, too, am moved by words. But I understand that my brain's circuits have to be intact in order for that to happen. It's been shown that when certain parts of the brain are damaged, the strangest things happen. Sometimes people can think words, but they can't speak them, even though, physically, there's nothing wrong with their tongue or vocal chords. Also, if that part of the brain that gives meaning to words is damaged, words mean nothing, although you can still spell them perfectly. I've also heard of a case where some people can write perfectly legitimately, but when asked to, they can't read back what they've written. Everything we are capable of doing, including being touched by words, can be traced back to the brain. I know I sound like a broken record, but without the brain, human experience is impossible.

What I'm beginning to think is that because certain words spark a certain positive effect, people think it's true. Words such as 'God loves you. He cares for you more than you care for yourself', for most people, gives them a sense of relief that all is not in vain, it's not just dog eat dog after all, we're cared for by the creator, loved, every hair on our head is counted, and so on. But is it true? Is there really a consciousness out there like that? Even if there isn't, many people have to believe there is, because it gives them a necessary comfort. Otherwise, life just seems cold, barren. Me? I don't feel that way. In fact, the more I get God out of the picture, the more clear and beautiful things look to me. Go figure.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 00:04:45 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: another reason why no regrets
Message:
We shall have to respectfully (hopefully) agree to disagree Jerry. I get this type of picture. It is like a mandala. But a fluid one. Whatever one chooses to place in the center so everything else is conditioned by that. Now apply this to thoughts. Whatever ones core belief is so everything else is conditioned by that. Our core beliefs differ. I do not believe that the brain is in the center. I believe the soul is. The brain is needed for human experience. That is true. But it is an instrument. It is a complimentary and wonderful instrument. The soul uses this instrument with differing degrees of consciousness. Differing degrees of integrated understanding. The soul is under the sway of the brain and the nervous system to the degree that one is unconscious. Awakening to the primacy of the soul demotes the brain-mind to its rightful secondary place. It is the servant not the master of the household. This is my belief. It is more than a belief. But I cannot prove that to anyone. Experience cannot be transfered only infered. So can we agree to disagree, Jerry, with some mutual respect for each others differing core beliefs?
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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 00:39:25 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Conservation of energy
Message:
The soul uses this instrument with differing degrees of consciousness.

By what medium does the soul do this, Keith? You'll be pleased to know that you're theory is one first offered by one of the most brilliant minds in history, Rene Descartes. That was some 400 or so years ago. It's been battled over ever since. The main problem revolves around one of the basic laws of physics, the 'Conservation Of Energy'. What form of energy is the soul if it can influence the brain? An energy that has to be a part of the physical universe. Otherwise it could not operate in it. There's only so much energy to go around, and it is a constant amount. It never changes (in amount). It changes in form, but in amount it never does. The point is, if the soul can influence things (such as the brain) which are of the universe, than the soul has to be of the universe, itself. Otherwise, it upsets the balance. More energy cannot not be brought into the universe than is already in it. But the soul is considered to be of a realm outside our physical universe. It, supposedly, lives in the realm of spirit. How do you reconcile this?

Welcome to the great debate.

So can we agree to disagree, Jerry, with some mutual respect for each others differing core beliefs?

Yes, we can. I enjoy these debates.

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Date: Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 01:15:21 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Conservation of energy
Message:

What form of energy is the soul if it can influence the brain? An energy that has to be a part of the physical universe. Otherwise it could not operate in it.

You are making the statement that the physical cannot be influenced by the non-physical because that would require the addition of physical energy. How do you know this and why assume the soul is energy?

My opinion is that both the strictly dualistic view of Descartes and the strictly materialistic view are both incorrect.

I am aware of millions of 'bits' of qualitative experiences all at the same time. How is this possible? What these qualitative experiences? What is aware of what and how? What about the timbre of a violin, which occurs across a span of time, yet I experience it as a quality? I don't see how these questions can be answered from a materialistic viewpoint. At the very least, I think you need non-locality, and that doesn't seem sufficient, just necessary.

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Date: Sat, Jun 10, 2000 at 10:18:15 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: G
Subject: G, you really ought to be looking at
Message:
self referencing and self-organizing systems,

second order systems I think you'd love, they cover thast midway zone you're so interested in so well,

as soon as you have self referencing at the grand network scale some very peculiar things are seen

but then I can't believe you haven't read up on this stuff??

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Date: Sat, Jun 10, 2000 at 17:02:20 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: self referencing and self-organizing systems
Message:
Sounds interesting, but I've only read a little about it. What is your take on how these concepts address volition and the simultaneous awareness of so many qualia (qualitative experiences)?

Whatever qualia are, they are real, and I haven't read any satisfying explanations for them. My guess is that they are non-physical.

Dynamical systems can be extremely sensitive to initial conditions (the butterfly effect). Perhaps the brain, an extremely complex dynamical system, is so sensitive that something as small as a quantum event (or events) could end up having a large impact. My viewpoint is that there is a metaphysical aspect to quantum events, that something metaphysical determines the outcome. I don't think that computationalism can totally explain human mentality or that the brain is totally classically determanistic / algorithmic. As to whether Penrose's argument from Gödel's theorem absolutely shows this, I don't know, but I think he's onto something. If anyone wants to try to figure this out (good luck), see Beyond the Doubting of a Shadow

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Date: Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 13:30:00 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Conservation of energy
Message:
You are making the statement that the physical cannot be influenced by the non-physical because that would require the addition of physical energy. How do you know this and why assume the soul is energy?

No, what I'm saying is if the soul has the power to influence the brain, it has to do so with energy. Where does it get that energy? If it gets it from outside of this universe, than it upsets the balance of the energy that's already in the universe, which can't be done because, according to the law of conservation, all the enrgy that's ever going to be in our universe is already here.

I am aware of millions of 'bits' of qualitative
experiences all at the same time. How is this possible?
What these qualitative experiences? What is aware of
what and how? What about the timbre of a violin,
which occurs across a span of time, yet I experience it
as a quality? I don't see how these questions can be
answered from a materialistic viewpoint. At the very
least, I think you need non-locality, and that doesn't
seem sufficient, just necessary.

I don't see what this has to do with the question of where the soul gets it's energy to influence the brain. Tell me how THAT happens.

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Date: Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 17:45:47 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Conservation of energy
Message:
... it has to do so with energy

Again, how do you know that?

The other part of my post relates to the subject of consciousness in general. Any response?

Side notes on matter, mass, and energy:
Mass is a form of energy, the conservation law can
be thought of as the conservation of mass/energy.
Mass and energy are both properties of matter.

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Date: Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 20:00:09 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Conservation of energy
Message:
G,

Let's stick to one thing at a time, please. Okay? Later for consciousness. Right now, I would like an explanation for how the soul can influence the brain, such as move it to think, or tell it to move an arm, or to release hormones, if no energy is required to do so. For anything to influence or move anything else, energy is required. Why not the soul? How is it you've determined it might be an exception? What's your reasoning?

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Date: Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 21:51:35 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Conservation of energy
Message:
For anything to influence or move anything else, energy is required.

I don't hold that assumption.

. I experience volition.
. The brain is unlike anything else in nature (as far as I know), volition might occur via quantum events or something beyond our present knowledge. Our knowledge is still quite limited and how volition occurs is not understood.
. Physical events that I've witnessed and experiences that I've had that I have no explanation for.

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Date: Sat, Jun 10, 2000 at 20:44:40 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Quantum, Schwantum
Message:
How come you new age guys are always calling upon quantum mechanics to prove your point? If ever there was a THEORY theory, quantum mechanics is it. Einstein hated the theory right up to his dying day, convinced something was wrong with it, and scientists have been trying to find a theory to replace it ever since. You keep talking about how consciousness and qualia not being reliant upon materialist origins defies your common sense, but you're really fond of the most bizarre theory, which completely defies common sense, ever devised by man. Go figure.

Anyway, so you think that you get an urge, a desire to do something that requires no energy to have and then your body just follows your command. In tests performed some 30 years ago, German neurophysiologists discovered what they call a 'readiness potential', a gradual shift in electricity in brain waves that occurs shortly before we will things to happen. Experimental subjects were sat in a chair, watching a moving dot on a screen and were told to move their fingers when they felt like it. They were then asked where the dot was on the screen was when they gave the command to move their fingers. It was found time and again that the 'readiness potential' preceded the time of volition by an average of 2 tenths of a second. This stunned the scientists because it suggested that the actions we take begin to be taken before we even will them to happen. So you have to ask yourself, where does volition come from? What causes THAT? In these tests, it would appear that it comes from brain activity. And brain activity requires energy. I won't even get into the implications about 'free will' these tests brought up. Needless to say, it makes you think.

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Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 03:58:50 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Quantum, your extraordinary claim
Message:
Your definition of a 'new ager': someone who is not a philosophical materialist. That sounds similar to a premie saying 'non-premie'.

Your personal hatred of QM has no bearing on whether it is true. Sure, it sounds weird to us, but it deals with the very small. Why should we expect particles to operate at that level the same way things do at our middle level? At least QM doesn't disagree with my own experiences. I can think of a much weirder theory, that supposedly 'blind' natural selection acting on supposedly 'random' mutations completely accounts for all of evolution. Why did the teachers drop the 'unguided' word? Because they know that highly unscientific claim has not been shown at all.

A materialist theory of qualia not only defies my common sense, it contradicts my actual experience.

... so you think that you get an urge, a desire to do something that requires no energy to have and then your body just follows your command ...

That is NOT what I said.

As for the readiness potential, Eccles has no problem with it, see the following web page:

The Return of the Whole Person

Another viewpoint is that this provides evidence of the anticipatory nature of mind activity. See Mind and brains. The subjects' anticipation of their decision started the shift, basically a gearing up process. There would have been a high degree of anticipation in that study. That sounds more straightforward and agrees with my own experience. That was my view when I learned about the readiness potential many years ago.

For more healthly scepticism about your extraordinary claim, see Are mental events preceded by their physical causes?

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Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 16:08:33 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Contradictions in your theories, reaction pot.
Message:
From The Return of the Whole Person

Eccles:
There is on the parallelist view no biological reason whatsoever why the self-conscious mind should have evolved at all. If it can do nothing, what is the evolutionary meaning of it? ...It can only have survival value if it can do things.

The author:
There is a great difference between causing and conditioning.

No such warning signal or 'attention-getter' seems to be involved when action is involuntary. Consciously willed action takes time to be set in motion.


So what is the biological reason? According to your view, there would be no need for volition or effort, the brain would just do its business, while the mind just passively views. This leads to the absurd view of volition and effort as illusions. What would be the evolutionary advantage?

Why a reaction potential with voluntary actions but not with involuntary actions? This supports interactionism and goes against your view.

The view of mind as illusion also leads to another paradox. If volition/effort/qualia etc. are all illusions, then the qualitative experience of scientific measurements is also an illusion. Where would that leave science? But then you could say, yes, but they are accurate representational illusions. What purpose what that have if there is no free will? If they are accurate, than what is accurately represented by volition and effort? If they are not accurate, then we might as well declare ourselves insane and give up on science because our sensations are unreliable. After all, maybe we're just hallucinating these measurements like we're hallucinating volition and effort. This is the kind of absurdity this viewpoint leads to. Besides that, it's just a cop-out.

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Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 02:28:22 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Quantum, Schwantum
Message:
It was found time and again that the 'readiness potential' preceded the time of volition by an average of 2 tenths of a second. This stunned the scientists because it suggested that the actions we take begin to be taken before we even will them to happen. So you have to ask yourself, where does volition come from? What causes THAT? In these tests, it would appear that it comes from brain activity.

This supports my new age hobby horse that say we have NO free will but only think we do. Wait, that isn't new age, is it? Probably something more like 'dark age.' The corollary to this is that the brain is a 'receiver' akin to a radio and that's how thoughts get in our head to begin with.

Hold on... I'm getting a message...that last sentence contains a dangling participle and it's time for dinner.

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Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 02:09:42 (GMT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Jerry, Help, what was the name of that book?
Message:
I read and would like to read it again. Do you remember the title? It had a strange on as I recall. Thanks
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Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 00:40:53 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Ah, you mean METHODOLOGICAL quantum, schwantum
Message:
You have to be very careful to define your terms, Jerry. Clearly, you're not referring to philosophical quantum, schwantum because, if you were, you'd realize that you don't know anything about it. No, your field of view is a very narrow one and if you even begin to think otherwise you're being illogicial. Now that's bad but it's not that bad. After all, hundreds of thousands of scientists have this same problem and that doesn't stop them from finding work. But only in science, mind you. Still, it's a living. You know?
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Date: Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 22:26:02 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: conservation law may not apply
Message:
Consider the following quote from this web page:

...is there evidence for the existence of the 'soul'?

Richard Warner argues that we need NEW conservation laws in physics(!) [JCS:3.3.222ff] to accommodate consciousness, but actually, this is probably no longer necessary. As Alwyn Scott points out in JCS:1.2.254, the law of conservation of energy--long considered the main show-stopper for dualism--does NOT apply in the case of nerve impulses on an axonal tree:

'The Hodgkin-Huxley equations, which describe the dynamics of the nerve impulse on an axonal tree, are not, after all, constrained by the conservation of energy. Instead this is a system of nonlinear diffusion equations which--like a lighted candle--balances the rate of electrostatic energy release from the membrane to the power that is consumed by circulating ionic currents. Since the electrodynamics of an individual neuron is not constrained by the first law of thermodynamics, there is little reason to expect this law to constrain a system at higher levels of organization.'

However, Beck/Eccles had demonstrated that even in their dualist explanation [CS:HSCB], energy WAS conserved (in spite of the classical objection that dualism was killed by this requirement of conservation). It might also be worthy to remember that living organisms are 'exempt' from these laws (and 1st and 2nd laws of thermo) as open systems [see CS:TIC:85]. To prove this that I am an open system, for example, I will take a break now and go eat an Oreo cookie. ...(pause, predatory crunching sounds of ingestion, series of small gulplets)...See, I am an open energy system.)]

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Date: Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 00:50:09 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: A note regarding the conservation of energy
Message:
To be precise (and picky), the law of conservation of energy only holds over sufficiently long periods of time, and can be briefly violated.

See the following web page:

Black holes emit matter

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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 05:26:49 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Conservation of energy
Message:
So can we agree to disagree, Jerry, with some mutual respect
for each others differing core beliefs?

Yes, we can. I enjoy these debates.

Good. Me too.As from tomorrow I'll be on unlimited internet time. As your posts deserve considered responses I'll leave my longer post until then. Let me simply say now that the soul needs no medium to function. It is its own medium. It is infinite. It uses energy. It is not energy itself as such. But we are playing with concepts. Is consciousness Itself finite? Is it energy? Or is the 'contents' only energy? Perhaps we should try and define what we mean by energy. We assume that energy accounts for all. What then or who then created energy? Did energy create itself? Yes,I posit a creator in the works. Even from a logical mental position. To be continued.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 22:14:11 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Conservation of energy. Follow up
Message:
Who is writing these words? I am. And is this I another form of energy? Yes. But is that all? I mean, is there a part of this 'I' that is more than or other than another form of energy? Thinking about this is certainly another form of energy. But am I not able to think about this or anything else because there is a primary presence or consciousness involved too? I am therefore I think. Think is energy. I am is not. Not 'I am' as a thought. But 'I am'
as an immediate awareness. Both are needed. Being human requires both. Spirit and matter. Spirit through matter. Surely you can realise that your thoughts involve something more than just chemistry. Your turn!
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Date: Sat, Jun 10, 2000 at 19:55:58 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Conservation of energy. Follow up
Message:
Just one flaw in your reasoning, Keith. Your consciousness exists so long as your brain is functioning in a manner that allows it to. Where does consciousness go in people who are living in a persistent vegitative state? The only part of their brain still functioning is the brain stem, which merely controls basic life functions, such as breathing and the heartbeat. But the higher level cognitive abilities of these poor souls is long gone. They can't think. They can't feel. And they're UNconscious. Consciousness is gone for them, just like it is for the dead.

I really think that people who think that consciousness is something that transcends this temporal existence are pissing in the wind. All the evidence, that's right under our noses, states otherwise. Sorry. It's a sad fact of life, I suppose, but there you have it.

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Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 04:11:35 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: the evidence
Message:
You are dismissing a lot of evidence, making many unfounded assumptions, and interpreting selected evidence in a way that supports your philosophy.
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Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 08:27:59 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: the evidence
Message:
I agree with G. Read Scott Peck's 'A Bedroom By The Window'. A novel, but based on the experiences of many. That what appears on the outside (with emperical evidence), is not neccessarily so on the inside. But oh Jerry there is so much personal experience that proves that consciousness involves more than measurable finite energy. If you like we can continue this with a new thread
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Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 16:03:49 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: the full evidence
Message:
Besides personal inner experience, I have also seen 'outside' evidence, in the form of physical events and knowing things I'm not 'supposed' to know, that mind is not physical and that something in us survives death. Also, I have heard many first-hand accounts of paranormal events. I tried viewing all this from a 'Skeptical' viewpoint, but it didn't work, that viewpoint offered no explanation.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 05:46:16 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: why conserve?
Message:
If it cant be created or destroyed, lets burn through it!

To me the DNA -consiousness sprung from matter- argument has neither been proved nor disproved scientifically.

Ideas that -it is a oneness and there is a wheel of after death spots to occupy- are defeated by the theological gap in explaining who created the wheel.

Human nature, to me, is where a proof of a god is seen.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 09:17:45 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: why conserve?
Message:
I followed a 7 year old into his garage today, and watched him pick up an arrow and try to push it into his chest. Since I was able to calmly take it away from him, I can't be sure how much of that was just being dramatic on his part, or what would have happened if he were alone.

'Don't kid around like that' I said. And he lifted his shirt to show me a tiny little red mark (on the right side of his chest) and said 'I wasn't kidding.'

When I asked him (later) where he came up with such a notion, he said it was the best idea he could come up with to make his pain go away. 'If I kill this body, then my spirit'll be free.' he said. Those were his exact words.

Of course I did my best to try to explain to him how wrong he was. (and of course his mother and others know about this...so don't think he's not being looked after etc). But i asked him what 'spirit' was, and he said 'You know. My soul, or whatever you call it.'

As I have only known this child for a few weeks, I don't know where these influences are coming from. Apparently he's been like this for years. But I'm not sure I've ever looked into anyone's eyes and believed that they were SO certain of their own words......(but of course this is obviously NOT a situation to be projecting into.)

I would still tend to believe that this is ALL outside influence, and learned behavior.....I can't imagine a 7 year old philosophizing on his own about the reality of his 'soul' (particularly in the direction he's taken it that is.)

For some reason I wanted to share that experience with the people in this thread.....Because I was imagining him overhearing such conversation as you all were having, and wondering...just how potentially dangerous can certain talk of spiritual matters be? perhaps for adults as well as children? just a thought....looking for some feedback.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 22:59:14 (GMT)
From: Harry
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: why conserve?
Message:
Just a quicky. IMO, whether you're a Hari Krishna, and Devil worshipper, a catholic or a Hindu, you are what you are because it gives you the illusion of understanding what it's all about, and that is or isn't a bad thing, depending on where you're coming from.
I have a bit to do with disfunctional families and it breaks my heart to see fucked up kids, because of a lack of love or worse through being abused. Fucked up kids grow into fucked up grown ups.
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Date: Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 22:10:12 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Harry
Subject: why conserve?
Message:
ya...i didn't mean to discuss the kid as much as the way we all philosophize etc.....
but i agree with you....
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Date: Sat, Jun 10, 2000 at 15:18:49 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: Toe-jam footballs
Message:
Here's a good old one from the early days: (more here courtesy of ex-premie.org)

I wonder what Mr Rawat now thinks of this:


Q: What happens when the physical body of the Lord dies? Does devotion die?

GMJ: No. You know, when you are attached to the Lotus Feet, to the radiance, to the bliss of the physical form, it is forever. If a devotee comes to
this earth with the Lord, and he is completely devoted, 'he' is no more 'he'. He has merged completely into the Lord. 'He' is no more 'he'. It is like this.
This is Lord, right, and this is 'he' and he goes and fixes himself here. (Maharaj Ji puts chalk between His toes.)

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Date: Sat, Jun 10, 2000 at 15:27:12 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: all
Subject: oops. How'd that post get here? 'pologies. (nt)
Message:
oops. How'd that post get here? 'pologies. (nt)
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Date: Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 01:22:35 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Harry
Subject: why conserve?
Message:
Dear Harry
Well sweetie, I am from a fucked up dysfunctional family and I think it set me on a path that hasn't always been easy but has been very rewarding in some ways, whose to say that I wouldn't be in some soul destroying reality now, to loosely quote a friend, if I hadn't come from what I've come from.
It breaks my heart also to see people in abusive situatations and I am not saying that children don't need love and safety, just saying that I am, in general pleased with the person I've become and am still becoming. Do you think I'm fucked up?
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 06:56:40 (GMT)
From: Harry
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: why conserve?
Message:
Now there's a loaded question. Some woman asks me if I think she's fucked up. Now what am I going to say to that? Yeah mate, sure, I reckon you're fucked up ;)
Seriously Robyn, for an American, you seem surprisingly together:)
I was in a hurry when I wrote that post. I do believe we learn from adversity and it is character building, or it can be.
I often wonder about Zac and his friends. They have it all; parents that love them and arn't afraid to show it, a school that nurtures them on so many levels, etc. I wonder what it must be like to get a start like that.
I do think though, that a lot of depressed, confused adults haven't come to terms with the brutality or apathy of their childhood.
Ps, your friend sounds a wise and sage man, or I'm no judge.
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Date: Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 11:10:38 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Harry
Subject: why conserve?
Message:
Dear Harry,
I just got an email from a friend who had a great childhood and is amazed at the depth of trauma that his adult friends still face from tough childhoods. I know just what you mean. Of course it is better to come from a loving, supportive background.
You are also right about many adults not dealing with the abuse and brutality from their childhoods. I use to be so afraid of becoming my mother, slowly or just waking up one morning to be her. I heard a report on child abuse that went a long way to helping me get past that, it said that adults who abuse come from abuse but that most abused children do NOT abuse.
Even though I do appreciate the person I am and continue to become I may be light years ahead if I hadn't come form an abusive background.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 13:54:28 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Robyn or Harry
Subject: Off Topic ---Question about Net
Message:
I'm not getting something. Right now the only way I'm getting to Anything Goes or Posts to Premie and Friends is by clicking on them at the 'Not Maharaji's Mixed Bag' Front Page -What's the problem you say??

I'm only able to get to that Page of choices by using Anarchists links fr 6/2/00. I know it's silly - but,when I type in on search... anything ( Maharaji,ex-premies,Not M Mixed) I can never come up with ANYTHING that leads me to Not M's mixed Bag or The Great Worldwide Linkup.

How do you all get there. Or how would I tell a friend that doesn't have it bookmarked either.

If it is that hard - how can anyone else find it?

Thanks,Elaine

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Date: Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 15:24:03 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Off Topic ---Question about Net
Message:
Dear Elaine,
I feel like a 2 yr old who has been up for 2 days! I just got home from filling out job applications and should have just gone to bed but... here I am. I can't think about what you've written here but I copied the address for AG. I should make it a link but can't deal with that either, I have to look up the code...so I will paste it here and then you can type, CAREFULLY, or copy/paste it into the place were the web addresses go, hit enter and when the page comes up bookmark it or add it to your favorites. Good luck. If you can't make sense of this maybe someone else who can think will reply or I will make the link after I have a NAP! :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 23:05:26 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Harry
Subject: why conserve?
Message:
Yes Harry, when it all boils down the way we treat each other is what really matters.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 21:06:01 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: spiritual talk
Message:
Who knows where that kid got that notion. Kids often do amaze with their perceptions of life. But to then deduce that this somehow represents an example of how talk about spiritual matters can be dangerous, for me , is a potentially dangerous step in itself. Why? Because, firstly the same could be said about talk about athiestic or materialistic matters. In both cases there are dangers that children or less mature adults might be negatively influenced. Not raina, that you were actually saying talking about spiritual matters was dangerous. You were wondering. But it felt like you were leaning towards believing they were dangerous. Are they for you? I wonder. The fact surely is that danger abounds everywhere. No-one, including everyone who posts on this forum knows how our expressed views may or may not influence anyone who is reading them. It is a delicate issue. For it raises issues like 'how ethical are the various ways we interact with others'. Personally I don't lump all called talk about spiritual matters in one bag. And I don't feel that talk in general about such matters is any more dangerous than talk about materialistic matters. That is my view.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 16:20:33 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: why conserve?
Message:
Yes, interesting story,raina, thank you.
Yes, as Dave said - children really do say remarkable things.

I would probably want the child to know that this body was a gift - and go out and enjoy--you're spirit will be freed from this body soon enough - or rather at the perfect moment.
Go have fun with the new toy - his body. Rather than seeing it as a prison for his soul/spirit.

Sound's like a neat kid. He'll probably lose that neatness soon enough.

Elaine the realist.

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Date: Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 01:32:50 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: why conserve?
Message:
Dear Elaine and Raina,
I keep thinking of a story my oldest daughter's pre-school teacher told me when I was picking her up one day. They had gone on a field trip to a beaver pond and took a walk. The teacher became aware that Jess had lagged behind and so she went to find her sitting and sat to talk to her and was amazed to find her contemplating some deep subject, the meaning of life or something at the age of 2 or 3! Didn't surprize me so much. At that point she was my only child, a very intelligent child and I talked to her about things as they came up, with honesty and openness.
I don't find it strange or bad that a young child think beyond their years. They may just need additional time and converstaion, feed back to their thoughts. I think that little boy may have simply needed additonal explination as you mentioned and I think I would find him to be a special and wonderous child for having pondered the thought of his spirit at his age at all.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 06:42:08 (GMT)
From: Harry
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: why conserve?
Message:
Hey Robyn, since Zac was 3 or 4 he has talked of his Spirit. He says that his spirit flies over the mountains and valleys at night. He once told me that all his 'smarts' come from his heart. Great hey.
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Date: Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 10:59:18 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Harry
Subject: why conserve?
Message:
Dear Harry,
I know how special your bond with Zac is and he certainly is a special child, a 'keeper' for sure. :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 01:38:02 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Nice post nt
Message:
om
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Date: Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 01:35:31 (GMT)
From: keith
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: ditto
Message:
I think that little boy may have simply
needed additonal explination as you mentioned and I think I would
find him to be a special and wonderous child for having pondered
the thought of his spirit at his age at all.

EXACTLY.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 13:47:22 (GMT)
From: (Sir) David
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: raina
Subject: Spot on Raina
Message:
I agree and I think a lot of the so called spiritual mumbo jumbo is extremely dangerous and potentially damaging. Most of it's crap anyway.

You have to be careful with children. I tell mine that my parents (their Grandparents) are in Heaven now they're dead. Some wouldn't agree with that but it's a whole lot better than the Hindu crap and it helps a child come to terms with the death.

But children do say profound things. I remember when I was seven years old, an uncle of mine died and I was very upset and had to be sent home from school because of it. At the time I asked my Father what was the point of living if you just died in the end? He couldn't answer that but I think that some simple answer given to such questions can really help a child.

The child you mention would have appreciated a simple and positive answer. For instance, telling them that they can learn a lot in their life and that would be far better than just dying. And I don't mean learning spiritual clap-trap but learning about this world and the universe, science, politics, history, geography, literature, art and also be creative and create things whether tangeble or intantable and perhaps improve things here.

There is much to life but children (and adults) need positive encouragement.

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Date: Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 01:41:47 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: (Sir) David
Subject: Spot on Raina
Message:
Hi Dave,
I guess I don't see the soul as neccessarily spiritual. I am questioning lots of these words lately. I use the word spiritual myself even though I am thinking of its meaning quite differently lately. I still use it because what I feel is beyond day to day stuff, goes to the extra ordinary but I do think it is ok to be cautiously honest with kids, framing things in ways they can relate to but most people do consider their 'audience' when in a converstation.
Not knowing the child or the uniqness of the situation I may guess at a way I would handle it might be to say that your soul wants to learn and grow with you, through life's experiences. That it isn't ready to leave your body yet, it isn't in a rush to do so and maybe to think of it as a part of you that is a friend there to support you through your life's good and bad times. Something like that.
Love,
Robyn
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